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trict. Trite it was, that there were twenty-one Bo-
roughs in Cornwall, but in Wiltshire, where Crick-
lade was opened to the neighbouring district, there
were sixteen Boroughs ; and where the Borough of
Aylesbury was opened, there were sixteen ; se that
tie same objection might be made with respect to
epening these Boroughs as to Grampound, so far as
the territorial neighbourhood of the right of election
existed. Cricklade was opened to five Hundreds, in
which were found the Boroughs of Malmesbury and
Wootton Basset, and no inconvenience was found to
arise from this circumstance. Hence he felt himself
warranted in thinking, that there were no insuperable
difficulties in opening Grampound to two or three
llundreds even though they might be within other
Boroughs. This was the most common mode of
Reform, and the most consonant with the Constitu-
icae In his opinion, even if they (the House)
\s ere balanced between
.two courses, they would
ect more prudently in preferring that which was
to secure the Reform of Grampound. It
seas not for him to say what difficulties might be
opposed to the other course in another place; but
he might observe that they had the experience of cer-
tain cases upon the Statute-book, in which, upon the
fiLcts connected with them, the other House concur-
red with this in applying the mode of Reform which •
he before stated. It was not for him to contend that
this was the only mode which they (the House) ought
to adopt, be only thought that they would be more
likely to succeed by taking the old course, than by
travelling out of it into a question of general Parlia-
mentary Reform. After the cases which already
existed, he for one would not wish to send up a Bill
to the Lords for the Reform of another Borough upon
a new theoretical principle; and he was the less in-
clined to do so, because no necessity arose from local
circumstances which went to the extent of sheaving,
that the old remedy was not possible to be applied.
There would be no difficulty in opening Grampound
to a sufficient district, and yet the Noble Lord called
on the House to deptrt from the uniform practice of
Parliament, and to transfer the franchise altogether
from Grampound. He (Lord Castlereagh) hoped it
would be recollected that he never concurred in the
expediency of that measure; and he certainly doubted
the prudence of applying it where it was not neces-
sary. The Noble Movers first object was, he pre-
sumed, to reform this Borough, and if that were,
the ease, it was for him in his prudence to consider'
whether it was not better for him to train his mea-
sure, so as to make it conformable with the old
custom, than to present it founded on a principle
;lot only much litigated, but upon which the ma-
jority of the higher persons iu the country differed
widely in opinioa from the Noble Lord. Look-'
in;; to the . preamble of the Bill, whoever agreed
to it must aho admit that the right of representation
grew out of the wealth and the population of the
distakt represented, for such was the true criterion
by which the Bill professed to give to Leeds the
right of representation. Now this was not only a
new principle, but it ss ent directly back to false prin-
ciples, in which he could not concur. Even if he
dad admit the principle of transfer in this instance,
he could not therefore be taken to agree in a gene-
ral principle, but only to admit transfer where it was
rendered locally necessary. But even if he agreed
in the general principle of transfer, still of all other
modes of carrying it into effect, he did not think the
best was to give the elective franchise, as this Bill
would give it, to inhabitants paying scot and lot, or
rent amounting to 5/. per annum. Such a scale as
this would give a constituency to the borough of
Leeds of eight or ten thousand electors. If lie
agreed in the principle of transfer, this was, at least,
a mode of effecting it to which he saw the greatest
objections ; and if he were to chuse between Leeds
ant the two Ridings of Yorkshire, he would certainly
prefer the latter. It remained for him to observe,
that he believed there was no instance where a
right of voting was created by Act of Parliament.—
That right either depended on the common law, or
was conferred by Royal charter; and, in this view,
the Bill would open a new principle of creating a
franchise by Act of Parliament, which had hitherto
been derived from another source. The more the
House deviated from the course hitherto sanctioned,
the greater risk it would run of taking up a principle
which was likely to meet resistance. Grampound
could be reformed by the same means which were
applied in three other cases. Under these circum-
stances, he thought it the safest course, that Gram-
pound should be opened to the adjacent district. He
would not oppose the second reading of the Bill,
trusting that . the Noble Lord, upon consideration,
would so alter the frame of the Bill in the Committee
as to render any opposition to it unnecessary.
Mr. TIERNEY confessed, that he heard the Noble
Lord opposite, not only with regret, but with very
peat surprize. When the subject was before the
last Parliament, he understood that Noble Lord to
have refused his sanction to the Resolution, which
proposed that in all cases where a Borough was con-
victed of corruption, it should be disfranchised ; but
that if his Noble Friend would confine himself to the
particular case of Grampound, then the Noble Lord
.apposite was prepared to go with him in such a reso-
lution as would propose to disfranchise that Borough.
He might have misunderstood the Noble Lord, but
it was the impression on his mind that the Noble
Lord at least was not adverse to such a resolution.
Lord CASTLEREAGH begged pardon for inter-
rupting the Right Hor.ourable Gentleman, but he
thought it necessary to observe, that he had reserved
himself upon that point, and that he had more than
desired not to be understood as precluding himself
from offering any opinion, which, upon further in-
quiry, he might think right. He wished the question
to remain entirely open.
Mr. TIERNEY proceeded.—He allowed, that two
or three days after the debate, the Noble Lord had
come down and explained himself in a more guarded
manner than on the first night; but, even with that
explanation, there was an Impression upon his mind,
and he believed he might add on the minds of many
others—( Hear, hear)—that the Noble Lord had con-
ceded the principle upon which the measure was
founded. And a great deal of satisfaction was felt
and expressed, not only within, but without those
walls, at the prospect which such a concession af-
forded that his Noble Friend's measure would be car-
ried. This satisfaction was felt, too, not by those who
were called violent Reformers, but by sound, praC-
tical, sensible men, who saw that the times called for
SVIRC degree of reformation, and who felt that wise,

. . . . . .
then bast conform to the times in which they lived 'ers for the County should be allowed to all the 'iauo-
(Hear, hear!)—Not that in this small degree of im- I cent Electors. He was not then prepared to say that
provement they expected an immediate purification he was ready to consent to this new right; still less
of abuses, but they thought they perceived in it a would he consent to have the tight of voting trans-
disposition on the patt of this House to do sont*thing (erred to any other place. ft would be much better
towards a rational Reform-:-(Hear, Afar): But now, to distranchise by the addition of new Electors, who
after the speech of the Noble Lord, he was to under- should over*helin the surviving votes. The ground
stand that all this feeling of satisfaction was un- on which the Noble Lord recommended this Bill to
founded, and that it existed only to be disappointed, the favour of the House, was that of its steering clear
Now it appeared that Grampound was only to be of all wild And visionary theories of Reform; but
opened to some neighbouring Hundreds, and the whoever looked At the details of the Bill, would find
reasons for not going farther was on account of pre. that it went to diffuse a right of suffrage of the most
cedent. Bat did it not occur to the Noble Lord, that extensive kind, and to throw a great part of the elec-
this precedent was established but a few years ago, tive franchise into that wide popular scale which it
and that it was then itself a new measure?—(Hear). had ever been the principles of that House to resist.
The precedent then set might be opposed fully as Many of those towns throughout the kingdom, where
much by the arguments of the Noble Lord, as the the popular franchise prevailed most generally, were
measure now proposed; and that was the only ar- much more limited, in regard to the right of voting,
gument he used, except his allusions to another place than the town of Leeds would he, if this Bill were to
might be so considered. But he (Mr. Tierney) de- pass into a law in its present form. And if Parlia-
nied that they in this House were to be governed in ment now recommended or sanctioned such a right,
their debates by what might be supposed possible to a feeling of discontent would be excited through dif-
occur in the other House—(Hear, hear was ferent parts of the country, in consequence of the
for them (the House) to do their duty, and the coun- scale of comparison which would be drawn between
try would see which of the two Houses attended to these new rights, and the limited rights which al-
her interests—(Hear, hear !).—He did not deny that ready existed. It was on this ground chiefly that he
this Bill was framed to let in the principle of Parlia- opposed the Bill in its present form. It might be said
mentary Reform ; and the way in which it carne re- that he looked with jealousy to any measure that car-
commended to him was this, that it would pledge ried with it a principle of Parliamentary Reform. He
the House, whenever a fair opportunity of mending certainly felt a general objection to any principle of
the state of therepresentation offered itself, to do so. the kind ; but, at the same time, he would submit to
Such an opportunity did now offer itself. He looked any portion of Parliamentary Reform which might
upon this as a question, whether they were to -have belong to any measure, whenever such a measuie be-
-653 or 656 Members in that House ? He was for the came necessary for the correctioreof an existing evil.—
old number of 658, and then he asked himself to But he could not submit to the. present measure, be-
what place it would be best to delegate the two seats cause it would go forth as a recognition of a princi-
which were forfeited in Grampound? He thought ple which ought never to be entertained by the
that when Grampound was once disfranchised, they House. In the present case of Grampound, there did
had no more to do with Cornwall than they had with exist a necessity of that kind ; but other cases might
Canada—(Hear!).—The only thing they had to do, arise in which a similar necessity would exist, and
was to see how they could best restore the full num- then the principle would be carried to a dangerous
ber of their Members. The consideration then sug- extent. His wish was, thut there should be no other
gested itself, whether, in a country affected in its example similar to that of Grampound, and that no
circumstances by the natural course of time and other Boroughs would abuse the rights vested in
events—whether, above all, ill a commercial country, them in such a way as to make it imperative on the
where property was constantly fluctuating, it would house to adopt such another course as it was now
be imprudent to give the light of Representation pursuing, After having said- thus much, he could
to a place which, by the fluctuation of trade, has not agree to a measure that went to give so extensive
become populous and wealthy. Was it better to re- a right of suffrage as was proposed by this Bill.
tain the right in a place which, by a similar due- There was no necessity for creating a new Borough
tuition, has lost both its population and its opulence? in Yorkshire. The effect of the Bill would be, to al-
Would any man hesitate in answering the question low six or eight thousand individuals to have a right
how the Crown would be guided, if it were about to poll for Members of Parliament, who had no such
to give a charter to one place or the other—(Hear, right already, so far as some of them might be free-
hear).—The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded holders of the County, and to admit that right in this
to contend in favour of transferring the franchise to instance, which would lead to endless pretensions.—
a populous district. As far as the principle went, It appeared that in 1800, the population of Leeds
he would have no objection to Liverpool, if it were was 53,000. In 1810, it had increased to 62,000,
unrepresented. He had no party object in particu- and it might be presumed, that if it had continued to
lariaing Leeds; for if his side of the House were to augment in the same ratio, it must now be about
have one of the Members for that place, it was as 75,000—CHere Lord J. Russell said 70,0001—Well,
much as they could expect; but he implored the out of these 70,000, allowing 35,000 to be males,
House to consider what a benefit it would have been and leaving out about 10,000 for nonage, the rest of
to Manchester, and to other similar districts, if they the male population might be estimated at 25,000.
had the right of sending Members to Parliament.— Now the Noble Lord proposed, that not less than
With respect to Manchester, he asked, if it was 8,000 of these should enjoy the right of voting. If
likely such scenes as occurred there, would ever this was not universal suffrage, it would at least.
have taken place if it had been under a regular mu- create a belief that Parliament preferred an extension
nicipal Government, and had a common constitu- of the Representation much greater than other places
tional vent for its political sentiments ?—(Hear).— possessed. In the town which he had the honour of
A Noble Lord (Binning) smiled at this assertion. He representing, though the population exceeded 100,000,
did not ask the Noble Lord to participate in that opi- the number of voters was only 4,000. The proposed
nion—(el laugh).—There was an aukwardness in arrangement would therefore create invidious corn-
offering the right to Manchester after what had oc- parisons and general discontent. It was said in the
curred, and he therefore preferred Leeds. He did not case of Wootton Bassett, that the same freeholders
at all look to this proposition with a view to party had a right to vote for three Boroughs, but this would
advantages, for if Leeds had the right of returning not happen in the present, for when the neighbour-
two Members, after all that had been said, the party ing Hundreds should have received Grampound, they
to which he belonged would think themselves ex- would be saturated, and could take in no more votes.
tremely well off if they could get one of them—(A There could be no object in transferring the elective
laugh). It was the principle he contended for. It franchise from Grampound to another place, when it
would take a weapon of offence out of the hands of was confessed by the Bill itself that voters would re-
the violent Reformers, who declared that the House main to be provided for, and that no other Borough
of Commons would never do anything to reform had yet been thrown open in Cornwall. If after this
itself, and, therefore, urged the People to clamour. It any other case of corruption should arise, the Noble
would be, to a certain extent, an answer to them, and Lord should have his admission, that a case of ne-
would satisfy the minds of those who wished for Re- cessity was made out, and that it was proper a trans-
form, while they were as far removed from the intern- fer should take place. He only wished for some de.
perate Reformers as could be. But, after the speech lay before such a measure should be adopted, and
of the Noble Lord, he was aware it was of little use that the House should act by Grampound as it had
for him to say anything. The proposition of his done by Penrhyn. Should a second case then occur,
Noble Friend had received its death-warrant ; Corn- he repeated, that the Noble Lord would find there
wall would keep its full proportion of 44 Members ; was no difference between them—(Hear, hear!)—
the Hundred with a hard name (a laugh) would be " Let us, however," said Mr. Canning, " defer any
added to the town of Granspound, and that was all acquiescence in the principles of Reform, as long as
that would be done! If any good was to be ob- we can—let us avoid danger as much as possible, in
tanned, even thus, he should willingly accept it ; but order to save the country from the difficulties, the in-
he was much mistaken if there would be any feeling conveniences, and the dangers that may be appre-
to-morrow, when the turn of this affair was known, hended from it—let us keep within the range and prac-
than general dissatisfaction and disappointment— tice of the Constitution, by.resisting the principle of
(Hear, hear). It was their only piece of good for- Parliamentary Reform, until an occasion shall arise to
tune, that they had one stage more, as the alteration overmatch us, when wemust yield !"—(Hear, Hear.)
was to be made in the Committee after the holidays. Mr. GRENFELL said, he had long since been pre-
He hoped Gentlemen would calmly and dispassion- pared to give his unqualified approbation to the dis-*
ately consider the question ; would inquire as to the franchisement of Grampound ; but he had entertained
feelings of their friends, and ask themselves whether doubts whether this Bill might not fail in its object.
there was any danger in transferring the right of elec- With respect to Penrhyn, which he had the honour of
tion to the town of Leeds or to the county of York, representing, there was a great difference between it
from the disfranchised Borough ?—(Hear, heir). and Grampound ; for in the late investigation, the
Mr. W. WYNN spoke in favour of disfranchising crime of bribery could be proved only against eight
Grampound, but he agreed with the Member for persons in Penrhyn; it was a kind of scot and lot Bo-
Northumberland, that it would be better to transfer rough, and there might be many Electors in it ca.
Ithe right of election to Yorkshire. pable of taking a bribe; but the great majority of
Mi. H. SUMNER had some apprehensions as to them were respectable tradesmen, who would never
the right of the present Parliament to take up the stoop to any such degradation.
question at all, since the offence of Grampound was Mr. D. GILBERT said, helud always been of opi-
committed against the last Parliament. As to the niou, that the very merit of that House arose from
question, however, if Grampound were to lose its the circumstance of not being a complete Delegation
franchise, he would he much inclined to give it to from the mass of the People. An assembly cousti-
Yorkshire. tuted on such a principle would sweep away before it
Mr. WENTWORTH BEAUNIONT (Member for not only the Aristocracy, but-the very Monarchy of
Northumberland), in explanation of the .proposition the country. It would take all the power of the State
which he intended to make in the Committee, said, into its own hands, and eventually terminate in a
that it was his purpose to suggest that for the pur- military despotism. He did not mean that the Bill
.pose of representation, Yorkshire should be divided than before the House would produce such an effect;
into two Counties, the North and East Riding to but the principle it went to establish ought to be
form one. County, the West Riding the other. The checked in the first instance; and, therefore, he should
latter would remain as it was and send two Members I oppose the Bill as it then stood.
to Parliament; and to the former he would propose Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that Cornwall al-
to transfer the franchise now in question. ready possessed too great a weight in the represen-
Mr. CANNING said, he was ready to agree with , tatioa of the people; and in every case of this kind
Gentlemen that some new modification with respect the House was bound to give a fairer representation
to the Borough o(Grampound was necessary, and to places where there was extensive population and
that the Borough must be disfranchised; but the great property. He wholly differed from the Right
place was not to be totally extinguished, as the Bill Hon. Member for Liverpool ; and he did so, because
went to provide that the right of voting as Freehold. i this measure favoured the principle of Parliameu-1

tary Reform. It was the duty of the tlotsee to cor-
rect the abuses which gradually had crept into the
Constitution. It was said that the Crown might
grant new Charters to populous places; but be
denied that principle, for the Union with Ireland
had fixed the number of Rep:e entatives, so that the
Crown could not now make any Addition to them of
its own authority.
Lord CASTLEREAGH explained. The choice
of the boroughs in Ireland was directed tegularly.
There was no new right to be created there, such as
the Bill appeared desirous of lb ming here.
Mr. WA RRE, in supperting the motion, protested
against all desperate and sweeping measures; he
wished to avoid extremes of every sort ; and he well
knew that some Reform was not only necessary, but
generally expected throughout the country. Every
one without the House felt gratified at what had for-
merly fallen from the Noble Lord, and they said,
",Well, at last here is one case admitted, and one of
the Cornish Boroughs will be at last disfranchised."
He was anxious not to be consi(ie ed a desperate Re-
tot mer, and he only supported the present Bill he-
cause he was convinced of its absolute necessity.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he could not but recollect
the assertion of the Noble Lcrd on a former occasion,
when he agreed that another place ought to be se-
lected in the room of the Borough that. was to be
disfranchised; and why should he nosy depart from
that principle-? He had a great objection to have
the right of election for this Borough continued in
Cornwall; for it the forty-tour Members returned
from Cornwall were all Cornish Gentlemen, that
,County had an undue share in the representation;
but the fact was, that the Cornish Boroughs sent all
over England for Gentlemen to :epresent them ; and
that was a reason why it ought not to have so many
Representatives. As to the right of voting, he
thought a householder in the toss n of Leeds WAS as
little likely to be wider undue intlaence as a forty
shillings freeholder in Cornwall.
Mr. GILBERT thought it strange, that the Ho.
nourable. Gentleman should throw out reflections
against the Electors of Cornwall, he having beer him-
selfoncea Member for a Cornish Borough. (Laughter).
Mr. W. SMITH said, he had represented a Cor.
nish Borough—but he was returned in a way which
might not be altogether agreeable to that House.
Mr. 13ATHU1tST admitted that Grampound had
forfeited its right to the elective frAnchibe ; and the
only question was, what was the best mode of purl-
fying that Borough ? In a case of this kind, when a
new measure was adopted, it ought to be applied
with as little alteration as pos-ible in the existing
state of things. In other instan:es, when Boroughs
were to be disfranchised, no such measure as this
was proposed ; and no more was done than to
extend the right of voting to the adjoining Hundred.
And he wished to know, if there was any thing so
peculiar in the state of this Borough, as to make a
different course of proceeding necessary ? Besides, it
was here proposed to give a new right to the Electors
of Grampound, by making them freeholders of the
county of Cornwall. Then was there any thing so
particular in this Borough, as to entitle its Electors,
after losing their present rights, to such unusual
privileges?—(Hoar, heir).

Mr. lIOI3HOUSE said, that although this debate bad beet)
protracted beyond the time which, he presumed, it war origin-
ally intended to occupy, yet he would beg leave to detain the
House a little longer, in order to say a few words which might
explain his reasons for supporting the motion of the Noble Lord.
As Right Honourable Gentlemen on the other side of the House
had thought it due to themselves, and due to their characters
for fairness and candour, to state the reasons of their support to
the measure before the House, he trusted they wooKallow him,
in justice to his own character for fairnesrand candour, to make
the same explanations, although they would proceed upon prin-
ciples totally different from those of the Right I lonourable Gen.
tlemen. And, upon the present occasion, he thought the House
did perfectly right in recognizing, as a pi incerle, that the Repre-
sentation of the People wanted some Raform. Ile should him,
self have taken the opportunity of submitting a similar proceed-
' ing to them before, if he had not thought that the Noble Lord
(J. Russell) might have lost as much by his (Mr. Hobbouse's)
alliance in that House, as he had lost in the country by the
alliance of a Noble Lord. Really, at that moment, it did seem
very necessary that the House should adopt some measure of
other, to prove to the Country, that they participated with
them in the general call for a Reform of Parliament ; and so
far as the Noble Lord had in some degree recognized that neces-
sit y in the preamble to his Bill, he (Mr. Ilobhouse) gave it his
support. And be said this so much the more, because it had
been represented in that House that there was a certain number
of Reformers in the country who called for so much, that chef
would not take less than they called for. If it were so, he could
only say, that be was not one of those Reformers—(Hear, hear).
He was one of those who received with gratitude every conces-
sion of this sort ; who were grateful for every step which was
taken by the House in meeting the wishes and in favouring
the just demands of the People of England. And he was most
grateful to the Noble Lord (J. Russell), not only for what he
had now done, but for what had been dune by him upon for-
mer occasions. With respect to the objections which had been
taken to that part of the Bill, which said, that something should
be done to reform the Representation, and to transfer the fran-
chise to Leeds, he could not concur In them ; because, all that
he had beard upon this topic was, that those Honourable Gen•
tlemen who so objected, would defer the fulfilment of that part
as long as possible—would defer, what they were pleased to call,
the evil day. The Right Honourable Gentleman who had used
that term was not than in the House, and, therefore, he would
not indulge in replying to the observation. But, as far as his
voice might reach, he wished It to be known, that he did not
consider it an evil day : he looked forward to it as one auspicious
to these kingdoms, and beneficial to the nation—as a day caku-
lated to confer lasting happiness upon all classes, without alloy
and without discontent—as that day, which would restore to the
Crown its true and real dignity, and prove to the People of
England, that they were still in possessiou of those invaluable
rights to which they had so just a claim—(Hear, Hear).
Mr. EDW Alt!) WARD remarked, that a Clau .e could be
introduced in the Committee to effect any alteration that those
who were dissatisfied with it in its present form might desire to
move ; and, therefore, oieevery account it a,peared to him pros
per to let it go to the Committee. Whichever Of the plans nor/
suggested should be adopted, he thouzlit the result would be a
species of Parliamentary Reform, effected in a way the lease
likely to alarm those who were opposed to the views of
lie-
fornters in general. On every account the Bill ought to heal.
lowed to be read a second time, and passed :o a Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply, complaint d of the Noble Lord
opposite, for opposiag hi, motion um' such weak grounds as those
he had supported himatlf on drat night. It appeared, that he
(Lord Castlereagh) had little to say, but th..t the measure winch
he (Lard J. Russell) proposed was diflerent Lem that adopted
in the case of Shoreham ; but this was as we:l known in Decent.,
her last as it was now. He could sae no si ba :mail objection
to the transfer which he proposed. In Cornwall, the population
amounted tq 217,000, and 44 Members were seturned. In
Yorkshire, ihcre was a population of :583,000 poi 5 ms, and but
32 Members were returned. In the farmer s, one Member
was returned for every 5,000 ; in the latter, hat one was re-
turned for every 12,0410 persons. Under such circumstances,
he could see no solid objections to the transfer of the elective
franchise from Cornwall to a town in Yorkshire. He wasglad,
as he was opposed to a certain class of Reformers, to have an
opportunity of proposing the Reform which he now proposed,
and which he regarded as perfectly analogous to the ancient law
of the land. Ile indulged in no visioaary schemes, but he thought
the President of the Board of Controul ciserisbed visionary
1 hopes when he supposed that the purdalament of one &Irmo'

7

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