Star.
London, England, 1816-04-02 00:00:00

(Mr. kose),shotdd not, m ansideration of die Xis.
tress of the country, come-forward himself and pto-
pose a redacting of at least ‘1000—(llear, Ittar)—.
He thought if -the Right Hon: Member did this. it
would do him great hon'nr in the decline of his life,
by setting sn vrtd an example—(Hroi, hear.)
Mr. G. ROSE th inked the last Speaker for his
suggestion, and observed, ihat he had on a fornrler
occasion relinqeished a salary of £lOOO a year, but
that since then he foiind no perion had profited of
that esample--( NNW, and a laugh.)
Mr. BA-BINGTON bore testimony the merito.
Timis *unions of the Treasurer of the Navy (Mr.
Rase) Ant only in his own particular department, but
in others not immediately connected with it. BUt
viewing the situation of that Right Hon. Gentleman
in the abstract, and comparing it with others, he
(Mr. B ibington) thought the salary attached to it
might be reduced.
After a few words from Mr. Long, and from Mr.
Dabiugton, in explanation,
Mr. ROBINSON observed, that the question be-
fore the H.+4,be wds wit one of personal consideia-
don, but whether a salary, which had been increased'
to its present amount a long time back, should now
be reduced ? Gentlemen, in looking at the salary
enjoyed by the Treasurer of the N.tvy, should also
consider the important duties which were discharged
by that officer. and the great public trust which must
necesprily be *posed in him. He (the Treasurer of
the Navy) could not dispose of his fortune, so great
was the security required from him, until he had got
his quidurfriinr the auditors of his accounts.
Mr. PRESTON observed, that most receivers of
the Crown were in the practice of selling out their
landed property before they came to such a situation.
Mr. BANKES did not think the present times so
had as that it would be necessary to reduce the sala-
ries of offices, which bad been raised to their present
ine,nre many Yeats back, The office of 'lreasiiier
'of the Navy was one of these. It had been held at
its present sal try for thirty years, and no complaint
had been made against it. He did not think, there-
fore, that the present time was the proper one for re-
ducing the salary.
Mr. BENNET said, the question before the House
was not, whether the salaries of the Clerks were or
were not too great, but whether the salary of the
Treasurer of the Navy should in continued at £2OOO
or 41000 a year

MriMA R It YATT observed, that the present was
not:the proper time for the reduction of the salaries
attached to offices which had been held so long at
their present amount.
Mr. FINLAY opposed the Amendment.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared
for the Amendment 21. Against it 66—Majority 45.
On our re-admission to the Gallery, we found
Captain PELLEIV complaining of the great hard-
ship; to which seamen on board his Majesty's ships
were exposed by not being allowed to dra w their pay,
or a certain portion of it, while on foreign stations.
Many of them, he observed, were six or eight years
on those stations, doting which time they were obli-
ged, when in want of money, to purchase various ar-
ticles-on account Jean) the Purser of the ship, and sell
them again at less than a fourth ;,1 what they were
charged for them. He had heard of one man who
had served fifteen years abroad, and who, whets he
returned home had only three years pay coming to
him, in consequence of having been obliged. when in
want of nic.ney, to adopt that resource to which he
(Captain IkIlew) had just alluded (Naar, hear, h:ar.)
Iles was a hardship so severely kit. that it was Vim
reason why many men, otherwise disposed to serve,
were unwilling to enter the Navy. The plan which
lie (Captain Pellew) should sugseat‘ to remedy this,
seas, that a Pay Cieek should be appointed to the-se-
veral foreign stations, who. with the assistanceof the
ship's Purser and Clerk, should advance to the sea-
men three months' pay twice a-year, leaving the pay
of the other six months until they retwned home.—
..rite present time was one when, in his opinion, it
was incumbent on the Admiralty to attend to regu-
lations s milar to this ; and in this instance he concei-
ved lie had made ens a prima facie case, which neither
Moses nor the Prophets couid controvert.—(Mark
hlughing.) He did not briag this subject Inward as
a questioti at politics ; he kiad always hitherto till'e•
ported his Majesty's Ministers, and never Ira.f the mis
fortune to dilier from them. When he first went
out to India, he-found several ships which had been
ten years thee. The first thing done by Lord Es.
mouth WAS to send them home, and to reduce the
period of remaining on that station from tea to five
years.

Sit GEORGE ROPE stated, that so far from
r their being any reluctance on the parr of the seamen
to serve on foreign vations, the whole of the ships
destined for India, tie Meiiterranean, the Brazils,
and the West Indies, with one or two exceptions, bad
been sent Ea bome time ago. The circumstance of,
receiving three, four, or rive years pay at once, on
their return, was an inducement with the men to serve
abroad. He was at a hiss to conceive, as only a cer-
tain proportion of a :'!amatt's pay could be taken up
in slops, how he cot 1:1 take up in that way 12 years!
pay* out of 15.
Captain PELLEW stated two instances of ships
destined for foreign stations, and remaining several
months in port from want of their full complement..
He repeated his disbelief of seamen going willingly
to serve on foreign bunions ; and Stated that he had.
when serving in the East Indies, kind it inipmcti.
cable to prevent the men from selling their slops to
purchase soap and other necessaries.
Sir GEORGE HOPE said, no attempt was ever
made to avid men to one ship more than another.—
They had indeed particular rendezvouses—(Hear)tout no man was ever sent down to any ship against'
Ws will.
Mr. FORBES hoped his gallant Friend (Captain
•ellew) would be followed by other officers' in that
House. The greatest complaints were made by Na-
val serving abroad, on acemmt.of 'not recei-
ving their pay. He had witnetsed but too much of
the distresses to which this reduced them, and he
bad had it in his power to afford relief tq some.—
From the Commander in Chief downwards, all re-
gretted how extremely hard it was for them that no
measure should be adopted for pitying the mess on
foreign nations. He had been told by a gallant Of-
ficer, within these last twenty-four hours, thatius had
been under the necessity of flogging his men forgo-
Liug int shore and selling their clothes for want of re-
ceiving an, part of their pay. He was sorry to lad

80 • Wetly Gentlemen affected 'with a cold; but-this
would not deter him from bringing the present sub-
ject forward night after night, when he could do se
by the rules of the Howe, till some remedy was af-
forded to the grievances of the Navy. Those of
Majesty'e Ministers connected with the Admiralty
might as well tell him that black was white, as that
the naval service was satisfied; they were not satis-
fied, and had no cause to be satisfied. It was in v.,:n
to tell the House that the two services were on the
same looting. He had no doubt the suggestions on
that subject, delivered, in the House, had done much
good, and they would still do more. Officers had
cense to his house in India, with their toes almost out
of their shoes, offering bills for sale; they used to pay
20, 25, and even :So per cent. discount. He took
same at a fair exchange ; the consequence was, that
bills came pouring in nu him from all quarters; he
was, however, obliged to decline receiving any more,
from the difficulties expeticnced' by his agents in this
countrytin obtaining payment.
Captain WA LD EG RA VE bore testimony to the
truth of the observations of a gallant officer, (Captain
Pellew).—ln 0105, when he returned from India,
there was a man in his ship who had aC2OUO of pay
due to him.

Sir GEORGE HOPE explained.
Mr. ROSE said, the gallant Captain (Pellew),
who knew so well how many clerks could be spared
from the Navy Office, into which he never probably
had put his foot, would be also able to tell him how
many clerks would suffice for paying the Navy on
foreign stations. If this matter could ever be ac-
complished, it must be by having Paymasters abroad,
and regular establishments. He admitted the hard-
ship which now existed, and the great convenience
which would result from the adoption of a different
syttem, if practicable ; but the subject required more
consideration than could now be given to it. He had
bestowed a good deal of consideration on it, but he
had always lotind so many difficulties in the way,
that he was obliged to give it up—but he did. sot
mean to say a remedy was impracticable.
Captain PELLEW appealed to the statement of
the Secretary of the Admiralty that a considerable
reduction would take. place in the course of another
year. He hoped that the Lords of the Admiralty,
now that they had so little to do, would apply them-
selves to find out some remedy for what the Right
Honourable Gentleman (!sir. Rose), admitted to be
a hardship, though the gallant Admiral (Hope) had
declared himself of a different opinion.
Admiral MARKHAM saw no reason why'the offi-
cers of the, Navy shouli not be put on the same foot-
ing with the Officers of the Army. All the Officers
of the Army received their full pay when they hip-
petted to be serving abroad. He knew a cart of a
Lieutenant serving in the Mediterranean, who, for
£22 of pay, got only between £l4 and Fl 5.
Mr. CROKER said, the exchange was now fa-
vourable to officers serving on Foreign stations. In
1810 he I:ad occasion to know that n considerable
loss from exchangeswas experienced by officers serving
in the Mediterranean and in the Tagus ; but the ex-
changes generally were rather favourable than unfa-
veurable to officers abroad.

Mr. JOHN SMITH expressed his disbelief of
the accuracy of the Honourable Gentleman's state-
ment with respect to the exchanges.
CROkER said he had a paper bound up with
the estimates, stating the rates of Exchange on Offi-
cers' Bills. In 1810 exchanges were favourable for
them at Barbados,. the Leeward Islands, Jamaica,
Madeira, and the Cape of _Good Hope; at par at
Malta, Rio Janeiro, and Bombay; and unfavourable
only at Gibraltar, Halifax, and the Tagus.
Mr. BARING kit convinced that the Honourable
Secretary was totally mistaken, because on this sub-
ject either the Officers must have been able to
draw as no merchants did, or drawn with a loss.—
The exchange depending now on peace and war, the
moment of any great extent of service was precisely
that when the Officer would he subjected to hardship.
A proper sum ought to be fixed for him secure from
any depreciation.
Mr. FORBES said, the favourable state of the
exchange widl India in 1810, was owing to a trick
practised on their creditors by the East India Com.
Many.
Mr. C. W. lA'YNN observed /217j-1. for Messen-
gers. Porters, &c. in the Navy °rhea. He was wil-
ling to admit the difficulty of any Clerk supporting
the appearance of a Gentleman on the small balm iest
but nothing could be an galling to them as to see
Messengers. who could only be considered on a par
with domestic servants, rated at £`249 a-year.
Mr. ROSE said, no Messenger to the Navy Office
had- such x sum.

Mr. WYNN had only looked to the sum tot•:1i
but in other offices F 240 was given.
Mr. ROSE :clamed, that the highest salary to any
Messenger in his otfice was not above £l2O a-year.
Mr. CROKER said, the two head Messengers in
the Admiralty had a great responsibility—they had
the care of all the boots.

Mr. BROUGHAM wished to have some farther
explanation respecting the Foreign Exchanges.—
During the last four or five years, it had been agaii.
and again stated that the Exchange was against this
country; but notwithstanding all that had been
stated again and again in the Report of the Bullion
Committee, and the debates to which it gave rise,
and notwithstanding the entries in the journals of the
House, were they now to understand, that all the
while they had been under a delusion, in supposing
that the Exchanges were unfavourable, with the ex
cepliou of only five or six weeks—and that in 1810,
when they were supposed most unfavourable, this
was only the case at two or three parts ? He wished
to know whether he would pledge himself tor the
,accuracy of this itatement ?
Captain HAMILTON bore testimony to a loss
suffered by Officers in the Mediterranean, in 1809
and 1810. from 20 to 25 per cent.. •
Mr. CROKEit said he knew nothing of the
subject of Exchanges individually ; he had already
stated the source from which his information wa..
derived.

Mr. C. YORKE allowed that the loss which the
Mears of the Navy had incurred by the state of the
Exchange, had been felt as a great gtievance at'par-
titular. times, and when such a state of things return-
ed, it would be proper to bring forward same measure
for their relief; but at this mouton the change *total
rather be a loss than a tenefit to the NA?y.
Mt. BARING wisl.ed to Icaow what was the.

actual state of the Etchange wit!'lta is
1810 ?

Mr. CROKER said, at that time the N;
67 or GS pence fer the dollar
Mr. BARING *lid, the vahie of Ole
only 54 pence, so that tho ()like's of the N
13d. more than its value at par fur each (1/411
is to say, they were 1 ,sers at tLc ra.e of 25
He wished the House to kre.,w Rh It the
been. The Admiralty had I:atura,lvi,„.„
on the subject, and bolo natures ignor.
Navy Officers had suffcreci a redaction of mu
on their pay. He allowed tha! this •r. a, rOt Ole tek
to do any thing, as the Navy now gained ol the rate
of exchange.
The CHANCELLOR. of the MZCP.T.:(;z:EL.
said, the difference between the trmJe I p.,‘11114 di;
Army and Navy, had arisen from the
usage of paying the Navy at home er.ly. ;.
year 1795 as arrangement Was mai:, by whici;
Officers were allowed to draw their pay w4ilejlfo.
reign stations; but it was always drattil 1,0131
which were due at the Navy Pay in C.,tim
only : they had therefore the advat!tare anj
vantage of negotiating them. The
when acting abroad, had its own, l'aynhsters.:tad:ed
to it, and it was from these circimwan:es, anti from
DO preference of ooe rerv•ce to tr:e ether, that toe
Navy had at dims suffnei

Mr. BARING said, that in ordistsry time', en
arrangement was p, good one, and was a moo
the favour of if-a: Ni•vy as against it ; the terse,.,i
.rose when trick, were played with the cunency; tie
variations which then ensut:d ticcasi great hod.
ships to the Navy, for to say that the Officers stroll
not receive their pay but at home, was often to de.
prive them of the benteit of their pay.
Mr. CROKER said he sh.uld, when the Home
!vitiated, move for au account the rate of Est.
change at which the Bills drawn by the Navy
been nerd eted for a series nt years p.tst.
Mr. LY TTELTON bore testimony that the rate
of exchange had occasioned great loss to the 01ficen
of the Navy, and had been felt as a hardship by Com
He had himself been on stations in the Mednerra.
nean, where the loss was 25 per cent. Atiollt a ye.,e
after the time referred to by the Honourable Sem.
t .ry (Mr. Croker), a motion had been made on this
subject by Captain Bennet, who was not now a Men.
her of the House, and the same.defetice wit set up
for the practice which was now made. Captain lien.
net had been then atithos:zed by the °dicers of the
Navy to say, that they were very as illing to give 11,
any advantage which might arise from the state ti
the exchange at any future time, and receive that
pay at par. (Hear, hear.) The antiquity of tia
practice did not all2viate the grievance.
Mr. J. P. GRANT said lie was glad the Harlon.
rable Secretary intended to move for the papers, Lc
if they proved the correctoesl of his statenrmt as to
the difference of the. ereliange at Malia and Cs.hial.
tar, they would inde.ed turpri:e on
political economy.
Mr. BARHAM said, that from his connee.i'l
telt') the Island of Antigua, he had opportunien (1
knowing that ti.e erchanze had been unfavcure,le t)
tl:at island, to the .mount of from 8 to 15 per cert.
for the last eight or ten years. He accp.m.d
Honourable Secretary of any intention to mislead the
House; but I.e had been surprised to hear such a
statement as had been made.

Auer a few words from Lord NUGENT arid Mr.
CROKER,

Sir J. B EST° •*;(1, that fo.meety vatiett he
had been in the Wtst Indies, bills had been new,-
elated to advantage; it was true it had not be:n:.o
of late years ; (a laugli) he hoped, however, the er.
change would get tound. He had never heeds
seaman express a wish to be paid while abroad ; they
wire satisfied with being able to make remittatxtr.
Indiscreet propositions made in that House by yqu:lt
Otfizers and young Menibets, without taking any ad.
vice, did great injury, by excitifg discontent on sus.
jects which had pryer before been complained of.
Captain wished to reptl the ch.nye
that he had taken no advice on 11:e subject whlc3
he had spoken fit. Ti:e gallant Admiral VI I.
I.).e.e,ford) who !IPA accif:ed him, was rut iftie
those %vision be should hay, chosen to e9nsslt,' be:
that gallant Admi!ral itad spokel to hilts on the 5.‘.1,.
jec, an he !tad inform d'hini of hip intention. He
had consulted many Naval Of on the c.hjee,
amid except the two Gentlemen who hid sprlte:i
that House, he had not found any who had differed
Iron him.

Sir J. BER ESFO RD said, he had spoken to t!'e
- gallant OtEeer on the subject alluded to, 4nd he (Cart.
Pellew) bad th n said. that Iv! nob*.
He had as:ed him why he had not co salted the A.'•
it irllty•—(Cries of &or, from the Oepusition side).
for that would be the surest way of serving theNav,
(Hear, hear.) And it the Admiralty
the measure, be might then appiy to the limar
Commons.
Captain PELLEW begged to disclaim some of the
. had &ijectes;
declerati"ns imputed to bun. He had s ;it tkst t.e
Oat, not applied to the Admiralty ; but as o, his
not consulted Naval Odicers he had never baiti
thing oh the kind.
Admiral MARKHAM leas surpiiied at the lar•
guage of his Honourable Friend (Sir J. Berestan4
It Was surely competent to any Member of the Howl
young or old, to submit a proposition withca:
wy
suiting the Admiralty. •
S r J. BER.EBI-0 aD explained.
?jr. WOR I'LEY conceieed the army ant nsvf
should be put on the sa inefooting as tothe receipt of pea.
Mr. LYTTLETON said, that the Hon. Secret.'/
had stated that in 1810 the exchange Was at pa st
Malta, or nearly so. He ( Mt. Lyttletoo) kne'v front
personal experience that the exchange was wen such,
that officers lost neatly 30 pet cent. in drawing 00
this country.
General FERGUSON said, that however mach
the nation owed to the army, it owed still more to t!:e
navy. To say that the navy would gain at tims
the state of the exchange, was nugatory; for the erg
time when the exchange was in favour of Eoglansl
was in time of peace.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said that an arrange.
naent might be made to enable the navy to receive
their pay in the same manner as the army; but it
would be attended with difficulty, as the navy bade()
paymasters abroad.
Mr. FINLAY said, the statement whick bad been
read by tl;c ilenourable Secrctary was such ai

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