Star.
London, England, 1829-05-26 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 26, 1829.

else hear the petitioners by Counsel in support of the
matter contained in their petition, said, in deciding
up.m this question he certainly felt that their Lordships
were placed in considerable difficulty. The matter
might appear to involve the privilege of their Lordships'
House; on the other hand, however, he apprehended
that, although they would allow no one to call in ques-
tion the-existence of their privilege, yet, if any act of
:heir Lordships had been agreed to whereby the private
and personal interests of any body of men might,be in-
jured, their Lordships would not refuse to hear what
t ry had to state in their own defence. ft appeared to,
him that if there were any intention on the part of the
petitioners' Counsel to plead against their Lordships'
privilege to demand the production of those papers, or
against their Lordships general usage or practice upon
those points, their Lordships should not be disposed to
hear them ; but it did appear ro have been provided by
the petitioners that their Counsel should confine them-
selves to the mere argument, that the order which, by
their Lordships' authority and discretioS, had been
made, would, if put into execution, be injurious to their
private interests. It did not therefore appear to him
that their Lordships could refuse to hear the petitioners.
With these few remark, he would. comet* himself with
moving the Order of the Day, reserving himself for
whatever might tall from other Noble Lords upon the
subject.
rd DURHAM said he merely rose not to object
to Counsel being heard against the order, but to state
his opinion that the pray,/ of the petition should not
be granted. lo giving his assent to the hearing of
Counsel, he did it on this condition, that they should
confine themselves to the statements made by the peti-
tioners respecting the injurious tendency of that order
upon their private interests, without entering into any
question involving the privileges of that House. He
would state as a precedent, shit similar accounts to
those now ordered had been obtained from the Corpo-
ration of the City of Edinburgh. without any regard to
the injuty it might be to individual feeling or interest.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE thought the matter
was one which concerned the privileges of their Lord-
ships' Hou e; and, in consequence, that i Committee
should, in the first place, be appointed to report wee-
dents. A transaction took place in the course of last
year which his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon)
would probably recollect. He referred to the case of
1 Lord Shrewsbury, when it was decided not to hear the
arguments of Counsel at their Lordships bar, either
imposing a meaoing on any transactions occurring in
their Lordships House, or at all interfering with the pri-
vilege which they possessed. Before they proceeded to
decide upon the question, he certainly thought it would
be well to appoint a Committee to see if any similar in-
' stances had occurred in ishick Counsel had been beard
at the bar ; but he believed no precedent could be found.
' Lord ELLENBOROUGH was of opinion that if the
mode proposed by the Noble Baron were adopted there
could be rio such thing as establishing uniformity. The
petitioners did not question the authority of tbe Hooke.
They said, that in proceeding to the exercise of their
Lordships' authority an effect would be produced inks-
riots to their personal interests, and prayed for the re.
peal of that order. But in consequence the sugges-
tion of the Noble Baron, he thought that this- course
would be the most desirable one—to give directions to
the Lord Chancellor to inform the Counsel what course
they were to take in pleading before the bar.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY considered that
the Corporation bad actually refused to produce the
papers ordered by their Lordships. The House had
come to a decision that the papers should be produced.
The order had been served upon the Corporation of
London, and he could not help thinking that in punn-
ing the course they bad done the petitioners bad acted
equivalent to an actual refusal. He conceived that
their Lordships could not depart from their usual course
without the privileges of the House being at issue.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN agreed o lib the
Noble Lord (Ellenborough) in the course proposed by
him. It seemed to his the most proper mode that
could be pursued.

Earl GREY thought that the petitioners should be
beard by Counsel at the bar. If the question were one
which involved either the privilege or the practice of
the House, be thought the petitioners ought not to be
beard; but, as the .question was different, be saw no
objection their Lordships could have to bear them. He,
however. thought the petition was improperly worded,
tor, after representing that they were only accountable
for those funds they received in trust from Parliament,
they proceeded to espies, their confidence that the
House would agree with them in thinking that the pe-
tioners ought not to produce those papers. He con-
fessed he could not pet fectly understand the petitioners
meaning; all the toads they possessed he should think
were in the nature of a trust. However' what thi peti-
tioners prayed for was to be simply lwfard upon the
manner in which their Lordships order went to injure
their interests. Certainly, if the petitioners meant to
refuse to produce those papers, he thou4bt that a stop•
should be put to such a proceeding. The Bill which
was now in progress 'through Parliament bad been
called a private bill, yet it was fir the purpose of levy.
log a public tas ; it was a general tax, for a particular
and special purpose; and all he would then state was,
that be certainly would never gilt* the sanction of his
vote for the Bill for levying that tar unless it could be
shown that the Corporation vas not in the possession of
funds adequate to the object they had is view, which
funds, if they were is possession of them, ought to be
applied to that object. He agreed with the suggestion
made by the Noble Lord (Ellenborough).
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, the abotioa be had
to submit to the House was, 44 That in‘tructioes be
given to the Lord Chancellor to direst the Counsel Z.
confine their arguments to the proof that an injetr
would be sustained by the petitioners by the order of
the House being carried into force."
The LORD CHANCELLOR having pet the motion.
Earl GREY said, this being a question of prirrileget,
e thought that in their arguments at the bar the
Coos sel should be restricted to the point of injury
. hich the Corporation anticipated from a compliance
t;ith• their Lordships Order.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought that if it would
. .
'cot be in Some degree to compeomise the dignity of
heir Lordsbips' that Counsel should, on being
ailed in; be big, ucted not to s•iy any thing interfering
with their I,nrchrops' prsale,es. . . .
EArl *GREY said he had drawn ups reaolutine which
e was suit would meet and obviate all dilficaltie.,ark
cave the CONCUlrltnet at thCli

M That this House will not allow any question to be
raised by Counsel at the bar respecting the privileges
of this House or the mode in which they have been
exercised, but that they (Counsel) shall be directed by
the Lord Chancellor to confine their observations to the
manlier end degree in which the interests of the peti-
tioners would be affected by the production of the ac
counts required by the orders of this House."
The ktarquis of LONDONDERRY bad no intention
of impeding the case of the petitioners, but the question
before their Lordships was a new one, the difficulty co,
dealing with which was proved by consideration. The
Noble Earl had been obliged to apply to the terms of
the resolution which had just been read. He, therefore,
suggested to the Noble Earl whether the better course
would not be to appoint a Committee to watch foi
precedents before their Lordships should consent to
hear Counsel.
The Earl of ELDON, in a low tone of voice, put it
to their Lordships whether it would not be more in coo.
formity with their Lordships dignity that the petition
should be withdrawn, and a new one presented, which
should confine itself to the single point which their
Lordships seemed disposed to allow Counsel to touch
upon. If Counsel were now to be called in they w. uld
necessarily proceed to argue in support of the whole
petition, and, might in that way feta to subjects the
mention of which their Lordships wished to prohibit.
His Lordship concluded by deprecating the resolutions
before their Lordships.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH could not pretend to have
a perfect recollection of that which had taken place
eight or nine years since, on the occasion of the pro
ceedings which were called 4. the Queen's Trial ;" but,
if his memory did not deceive him, a precedent for the
very resolution now before their Lordships might be
found in what had occurred on that occasion. The
Noble and Learned Earl (Eldon) had just now sug-
gested that the petition of the Corporation should be
now withdrawn, and that another should be presented,
so worded as to admit of Counsel framing on it aro-
menu to which their Lordships could not object; but
that course would be unnecessary; if he were correct
in his reference to the Queen's trial, at which period the
Noble and Learned L .rd had sat on the woolsack. He
(Lord Ellenborough) was quite sure that in one instance
at least on that occasion Counsel were heard at the bar
in support of a petition, having beep previously directed
by the Lord Chancellor to apply their .arguments to
only a particular portion of the petition. He thought,
therefore, that the better course would be to adopt the
resolution before their Lordships.
Lord GODERICH said, their Lordships were speak-
ing of ditectiag counsel to be beard at the bar without
having agreed to the preliminary question that Counsel
should be beard.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that question was
involved with the Noble Earl's resolution.
The Earl of MALMESBURY asked, would the pe-
tition remain upon their Lordships Intrust, ? because,
if so, it would appear that, however jealous of their
privileges their Lordships were, they had, nevertheless,
plac
possed the petitipaers in the most indulgent poe.tios
ible.
The Marquis of LANSDQWN said, thevetitioa
would most certainly remain upon the Journals.
The resolution .was then pat and agreed to, and
Counsel were ordered to be called in. Mr. Harrison
and Mr. Common Sergeant appeared at the bar ac-
cordingly.
Mr. HARMON then proceeded to argue in support
of the prayer of the petition of the Lord Mayor and
Corporation of tbe City of London, in doing which he
referred briefly to the circumstances which had com-
pelled the Corporation to apply to the Legislature for
a Bill to enable them to raise the funds necessary for
the completion of the new London-bridge and its op
proacbes. The Learned Gentleman said it was proba-
bly in their Lordships' recollection that a new bridge
having been deemed indispepsable, an Act was applied
for in the fourth yea of his Majesty to authorise the
Corporation of the City of London to erect the came,
for which they had, in their Bridge-house estates, ads:l
trate funds; but after the introduction of the Bill it
occurred to the Legislature that to raise the elevation'
of the bridge, beyond ,the proposed plan would be a'
great improvement, but which could not, of course, be
done without considerable additional expense. Under
those circumstances, on application from the Corpora-
tion, two clauses were introduced into the Bill, by which
the City was protected from being called upon to pay
any part of the increased expense consequent upon the
departure from the original plan. and also against any
actions that might be brought against them by indivi-
duals for damage sustained by the new works and al.
mations. Those clauses he humbly submitted suffi-
ciently protected the Corporation. Having established
that point. the Learned Gentleman proceeded to argue
that the property of the Corporation of the City of Lori-
don ought, in conformity with recent precedents, to be'
viewed as private property, held as sacred as if it be-
logged only to an individual, and left equally uncon-
. • to the proprietors. That doctrine bad been
laid down by the highest authority in the State. There-
tore he most respectfully submitted that the estates of
the City of London, called the Bridge-bause estates,
formed the only portion of their property winch the ex-
potation was bound to apply to the erection and comple-
tion of London-bridge, and that fund being exhausted.
the other property of the Corporation could not, by any
existing law, by any Act of theLegislature,be made appli.
cable to expenses not contemplated by the Corporation
origioally, and which increased expenditure would be
incurred solely at the recommendation and under the
sanction of the Legislature, which would provide funds
for the purpose. He might, if requisite, refer to the
practice in similar cases of improvements in corporate
towns and cities, to show that in those cases the expense
was never thrown upon corporations or bodies, but that
it was defrayed by a rate operating generally on the in.
habitants. In the present instance that course was not
practicable, for the sum still required to complete the
spproaches to London-bridge and other additional
works being no less than 1.000.0001. sterling. it would
w quite impossible that an assessment to that amount
could be levied upon the inhabitants of the district in
the immediate neighbourhood of the bridge, and even,
ef practicable, it would be unjust, when the whole city
(including. of course. the Bank. the Eubange, the ladle,
House, and other pubuc bodies) sae to be equal gainers,
soon the new bridge with the Corporation. To meet
the new charge a wet fund must, therefore, be created,
nd if, was to provide such a fund that the Corporation
sad isppli.d to ore L relaters.. Aosust the latter pad

PIUCI SZVINPENCII.

of their Lordships' order be humbly but particularly
ventured to contend. It called for accounts relating to
,all property held in trust by the Corporation of the
City of London. property over which the City had no
controal. The former part of the order might be cotta•
plied with in a short time. but it would require three or
four seeks to furnish the accounts required by the latter
part, by which time, probably, the Session of Parliament
would have terminated. Another year woold, there-
fore. necessai sly elapse ere the Bill n.,w before Parlia-
ment could be passed, and thus great incoavenieoce to
the public would be experienced. For these reasons be
humbly hoped, on the part of the City of London. that
their Lordships would reconsiJer and modify the orde►
which they had made.
Common Sergeant (Daman) was shoot to fellow, when
The Earl of LAUDERDALE ro•e, and suggested
that it would be a waste of their Lordships' time to bear
a second Counsel on the subject.
Counsel were then ordered to vritbdraw.
The Esrl of LAUDERDALE then moved a resole.
Von that no second Counsel should be beard, to which
, their Lordships agree-1.
Viscount SIELVILLE said, that in his opinion no
case had been made out to justify their Lordships in
rescinding their order. Two modes of proceeding now
presented themse;ves. One was, to allow the order to
remain in lorcee—the other, to pass it setolatioo. de-
claring that their Lordships would persevere in en-
forcing the order, which Litter mode he thought the
lea•t'a.l.isabk of the two.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said the Haase ought
to call ntr the accounts forthwith.

Lord ELLENROROUGH soggested a modification
of the term " torthwath."
Lord DURHAM said their Lordships ought tocOme
to borne determination respecting what was faith*. to
be done. The Committee was to sit to-moirow (ibis
day) at one o'clock.
Lord MELVILLE said it was for the Committee to
decide what evidence it would require—whether. in
short, the whole of the papers °Meted were necessary
or not.

Lord DURHAM contended that the order of their
Lordships ought to be complied with to its fullebt merit.
The preamble of the Bill recited that the City fends
were exhausted. He had, in con►egoence. moved for
the production of accounts, in order to ascertain that
fact. and without which accounts it was quite iniposai-
ble tbat the Committee could come to any determination.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that no c• use could
be productive of more practical inconvenience than con-
stant reference from the Committee above stairs to the
House, and the interference of the House nith the
Committee.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY contended that
the Corporation hod a right to show in what manner
they bad disposed of the fund already placed in their
hands, and which (the Orphan Fund) had been created
by a duty on coal, before they could claim a renewal of
that tag. He thought that the Corporation ought to
prose the insufficiency of their funds before they ova
allowed to inflict the continuation of this tar upon the
poor conorsers of coals in the city of London. And it
would be highly discreditable to his Majesty% G •wera•
meat if they allowed the Carporation to smuggle ibis
job through the House in the way which had been at-
tempted.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said that it sal v y
tile that this question bad been submitted to 6.,retti.
mem, and bad been f, r some time under the cobs' eva-
de° of the Lords of the Tieasury. who, up*n the
amnion then bs fore them, thought it necessary to make
sufficieut approaches to the new bridge; and un er
these circumstances it was that the new Bill bad been
brought into Parliament. But there was no conceal-
ment in the case. Their L .rdships would bear in mind
that, when upon two loniser occasions ibis subj et had
been mentioned in the House, he (the Duke of Welling-
ton) had expressly stated that it was not the intention
of his Majesty's Government to reduce the tax upon
coals, either that part of the tax which came into the
King's Treasury or which went to the city r f London.
At that time this measure was under the consideratioe
of the other House, sod Was these passed alter six Weeks?
consideration of the whole subject. and of the very, qtresu
doss which were now under consideration rn that House.
But the question now was, whether their Lordships
would sow prevent the Committee to which the Bill
bad been referred 'from taking it into con•idesarinn
merely because the Noble Lord opposite said that the
papers for which be had mowed were Dec-essay to en.
able the Committee to proceed with effect' Would the
House decide that the Committee were not to ptoceed
until these papers were produced ? He should tell their
Lordships what the consequence would be--that the
bridge would be consph ted, but the approaches would
am, and there the bridge would be; but it would be
absolutely impracticable to approach, even foe foot pas.
stingers. This was a case which be thought would net
be creditable either to the Government or the Puha.
meet, or still less to 'that Howe. lf, however. the
House, after the statements which it bad heard, were of
opinion that the Committee ought not to proceesi for
another year, be (the Duke of Wellington) had no
jection. He bad fulfilled his du y in putting the sub-
ject into such a train as to 'bring it before the Hawn.
fbe arguments of the Noble Lord opposite (Dothan')
and of the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) proceeded on
Use ground that the city of Logsdon asserted in the pre-
amble of the Bill that they had unhands to defray the
'grease of constructing these apProaches except .the
leads to be raised by this Bill. But they said no such
thing. They only aliened that the bridge-house estates
were not sufficient foe the purpose. They bad said
not a word about their other funds being insufficient ;
on the contrary, they bad stated in the Bill that
the fourpeany duty on coals was applicable to the put.■
pose of these approaches, after payment of the
pal and ist• reit of the Orphans Fund. These was
also another tend which the city possessed, and whkh
had been adverted to us the course of these disansions.
namely, 11.5001. a-year, which was part of a fund
created and unstained 67 Act of Parliament, far paying
the principal pd interest of the debt due to the
Orphans' feed, aid afterwards applicable to the par.
pose of performing public works in the city. Under
these cit corpselike' be thought it best to leave it to the
Committee to decide whether these approaches ought
to be made or ant. The neat vaginas was, in want
mariner the sports were to be paid for ? This alse
thought, was a question for tie Consansibee, and, baring
been once refined to them, be thrseglittlianireseeoght
not now to withdrew it fermi their considered. s.
Lod DURHAM said, that by the yeas len rbo

would hive drawn from the Orphans'
'a51.6721. and they ought. therefore.
account of their finances before they rr-
-.41 grar•t which they trquired. Under
the circusistanees of the ease he should no tardier Ness
his mntinn, it being understood that no obstruction
triguld be, in the Committee made against the prodnc.

Oen of thr-e accounts.
nett Lordships then adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. T.YTTLIMON presented two Pebbles from the city of
Litchfield. complaining of the present state of the elective franchise.
in consequence of the usurpation of two mottle families.
Mr. WODR HOUSE presented a Petition from Canterbury,ln
favour of the Rest India Oates MIL
Mr. OIdiZILL noved an Address to his Majesty, for an ac-
count of the number of voters for each of the cities and boroughs

of Great Britain.
Mr. H. GRATTAN presented two Petitions from Parishes in
Ireland against the Sob letting Act.
Sir J. MACINTOSH moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
make compensation to the sufferers by the insolvency of the late
Registrar of the Supreme Court of Madras.—Leave given.
Mr. PANE postponed his motion for a new writ for East Ret-
find, to tomorrow steonight.
Mr. DOW NIE presented a petition. from Stirling, against the
Scotch Gaols Bill.
Mr HUSKISSON presented a petition from Ashton-under-
Line, against excessive taxation ; and a petition from the Anti-
bread Tat Association, Kidderminster, against the Cora Laws;
and a petition from the merchants of Liverpool, for the admission
of foreign sugar to be relined in this kingdom; and a petition from
the traders of Liverpool, in favour of a law for the recovery of small
debts; sho a petition from Liverpool, praying for the repeal of the
prixage and butterage of wine imported into that pert. The Right
lion Geodesy's' stated that those duties had been perchased fee
the public in all the other ports of the kingdom bat Liverpool and

LUlCallter.
Mr. BARING postponed the Committee on the EMI India
Offices 13.11.
The, Nis:gals of TAVISTOCK presented a Petition from a
Hundred in the county of Bedford, signed by all the Magistrates
and !with officers, complaining of the state of the labouring classes

of that empty.
Mr. SLA N EY called the attention of the House to the petition,
which contained a frightful picture of the state to which the abuse
of the poor laws has reduced the labouring population. It was not
his intention to press the Labourers' Wages Bill this Session. but
would bring it forward neat Sonia.
Mr. II U MR said he could not bear the distress at the labooring
;emulation attributed to the pour laws only. when he was convinced
the earn laws had a great share in producing that dare*.
Mr. BRIG HT presented a Petition from the Parish of Hackney
ageless the Metropolis Police Bill. He thought no case was made
out for passing the Bill, and that the parishes were bat able to take
care of then own affairs.
Mr. PEEL said. nothing could be more fair than the manage In
which the lion. Gentleman had called attention to the sobjeee. Al
the yokes times that the severity of the criminal code was bra*
under the consideration of the (louse, the state of the police et the
metropolis was always regarded as one tithe coward theistical*
of crime. Con ' ees had made uniform reports that 11111811141
effectivel could be done without improving the police, solids they
recommended should be put under one bead. and the Margot
estabiishments of the police be consolidated. As soon as the Ce.
tholie Hill was disposed of he brought in the present Bill, en the
ISth of April, and the Bill had now arrived at the third remits*,
and but one parish had petitioned against it; and nets Hackney
could nut be said in petition against the BIS, but only that they
should not be included in its provisions. He admitted that Hackney
was well governed. but what they appeared to be afraid of was
expense, and be could assure them the charge should be less than at
present. But though Hackney was well regulated. the effect al
the neighbouring parishes. according to the Ater of the parish,was
to drive the thieves out of Hackney into Tottenham, where there
were sixteen burglaries committed,and three attempted in six weeks.
It was ineurnhenc on Government, when such facts were proved.
not to connive at the system by which they were produced. At
present the parishes were like little independent kingdoms. and a
WOCiMI3II had power to act at one side of Oxford-street, but not
at the caber; and the same was the case in many other places.—
While things remained in that state, crime could not be effectually
repressed.
Sir JAM ES MACINTOSH said he had attentively consi-
dered the Reports cat the Committees cm this subject, and perfectly
concurred in them. He hoped the capital offences on the Statute.
hook would be fur:her limited.
Mr. LEN NARD thought the reason there were no more mil-
itias against the DM, was the little observation with which it bad
been Slowed to proceed in its stages through the House. He
thought it would be an important improvement to have more fre-
quent gaol deliveries He regarded the Bill with a coastitutional
jealousy, as giving usolue power to the Minister of the Crown, by
placing an nominee twee at his disposal. He thought it the Bill
must pass, the City of Loudon should be included in it. If this Bill
pasted, leignebester and other places would follow the example.
Mr. IiSTCOURT thought it necessary that there should be an
uniform system of police, as the only means of affording general
security.
Mr. PEEL hoped Manchester would follow the example—that
they would establish a civil forte sufficient for their protection, and
net make it necessary to place the military in cotton mills for their
security.
Mr. Alderman WA ITH MAN said the City of London was so
well governed by its Magistrates. that it did not require any inter-
krence.
Mr. BROUGHAM moved for a Return of the number of
Causes standing for bearing and judgment in the Court of Chancery
on the appointment of the Commission in the year 1809, and from
May 1791 to February 1791.—Ordered.
Mr. PEEL said be should not press the coosideradon of the
liaise to the subject of the Chancery Bill, brought up from the
other House of. Parliament, this Session; but oo the earliest oppor-
tunity next Session, would introduce a measure connected with the
adnunistretion of Equity proceedings.
Mr. M. A.TAY LOR said he bad not reined in his endeavours
to put the Court of Chancery on a looting favourable to the
rights of the subject ; but unless the whole state of the Court could
be Sully discussed, It would be imitate bring it forward this See-
Soo, though the state of the Court of Chancery was now tea times
wont that, when he originated the inquiry.
Dr. LUSHINGI ON hoped the whole slate of the Court would
be subjected to revision nest Session. He confessed be was disape
painted at seeing no step taken but the mere palliative measure
brought forward by the twinned Lord in the other House.
Mr. PEEL said it was the intention of his Noble Friend to in-
troduce other measures besides the Bill that bad posed the House
of Lords, and that was his chief reason for not pressing that Bill
this Session.
Nr. P. BUXTON moved for a return 'of the slave population
in all the colonies. distinguishing the number of each ses.--.Ord.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know whether it was the inten-
tion of Government to bring in a 1.1.11 for the &alai= of slave
evidence in the Courts of the Colonies.
Sir G 101 ItG K MURRAY thought slave evidence ought to be
received, and hoped to bring in a 801 l for that purpose next Session.
In some Culottes it was admitted, on the slave producing a teed-
monial of his competence from his religious instructor—a condition
he' did nut approve tat, as he thought religion ought to be introsluced
into the been of man by persuasion, not compuleku, or hope ut

teapots! benefit.
Mr. BROUGHAM was perfectly satisfied with the statement
of the Right Hon. Gentknian, that it was the determination "I
GoverNment to awake. the measure next Session.
Mr. L#USKISSON hoped the Cownies would follow the example
of the country, by abolishing all penal laws against Catholics.
SkJAMRS MACINTOSH said be had great confidence in
the good intentions of the Secretary for the Colonies.
Sir ROBERT WILSON and Lord NUGENT inquired when
the West India Commission would close its labours?
Sir GEORGE MURRAY said the Commissioners had stated
to him that they would close i eir reports by the cud ut the pre-
sent year.
Mr. BROUGHAM thought the admission of slave evidence one
of the moat important steps that could be taken towards the emu►.
vpstion of the slaves.
Mr. UROUG HA M presented a Petition from Joseph Ashley,
of lisiluburgh, for an iniptovenwat in the law of patents.
Mr. VIIEEN presented a Petition from the Pon of Lancaster.
for the abolitiou of the butlerage and priuge of wine.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was
" moat desirable to abolish those duties, and stepe should be taken
for that purpose.

- -
cowsurm OP SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR at the EXCHEQUER moved the
Order of the 1)..y ter the Hoeft to resolve kself into a Committee
of Supply. . .
• Mr. lighlE said, he heard it reported that it was Wooded to
suprrainiiste alle. of the Barons of the Eschequer, who was per-
t. ctly to perform 'he Judie of his ease. and to harden
the country with hi. retired allowance. Ile wished to know
wh. tiler suclian ii.tesstion existed?
'1 he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had not
bard of any such intention.

Mr. tHIAISON said, lie understood from the ChutesDor

of the It schequer kit Searles dui he would burakett a menento
for the mailbag of the Usury Laws, so far se regarded macaw*
truism:doss.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said be approved
sof the measure. bat did sot think he bad promised to lntrndsce it.
Mr. P. THOMSON • id. if it wen not btrodueed by Minis-
ter. pest Session. he should lamed introduce such a measure fatly
hi the nest Session.
Mr. IRVINE hoped the Chancellor el the Bulimia would
Introduce such a momentum Session.
Mr. HEATHCOTE said he should oppose it.
On the mation of the Ca•iscatcos of the ikorenstso. the Com-
mittee of Supply was postponed to Wednesday, and the House re-
solved itself into a Committee on the Sow Duties Bill.
Mr. C. GRANT rose to move a resolution of which
he had previously given notice. The Right Honourable
Gentleman stated, that from what passed in the House
last year he bad expected that the Right Hun. Chancel.
for of the Exchequer would have proposed a reduction
of the duties on sugar. and he was satisfied that such a
reduction might be made without difficulty. He con.
tended that high duties lessened consumption, and by
that means were actually injurious to the revenue. The
Right Hon. Gentleman entered into some details to
maintain this position, and referred to the articles of
French and Portuguese wines. and of tea, upon which
he contended that a greatly increased consumption had
followed the ?eduction of the duty, and a consequent in-
crease to the revenue instead of a loss. If the reduction
of the duty on sugar were only one halfpenny per pound
it would have the same effect, and enable the poor to
consume that article of necessity, as well as of comfort
and comparative luxury, to a much greater extent than
they were now able to do. If it were n y, he
might enlarge upon the injustice done to the East In-
dians, and show the great privations they suffered in
consequence of the present system. It was, however.
sufficient for him to contend, and to show. as might
be easily done, that the West India proprietors were
themselves hurt by their monopoly. The West India
proprietors had no just ground for apprehending any
danger from the importation of East India sugar. la
the last year 3,965,000 cots. of sugar were imported
from the West Indies,and only 156,000 cwts. from I heEast
Indies, and therefore it was monstrous to suppose that
the East India sugar could expel the West from the
market. Indeed, if it were likely to do so, how was it
that it did not find its way more into Europe, for the
ports of the Continent were as open to it as to the sugar
(tom the Brazils, Cuba, Hayti, and other places. An-
other consideration was, that the present system en-
couraged the Slave Trade, inasmuch as we exported to
the Brazils merchandise to the amount, official value,
of 2.800,0001. while t.ur imports from the Brapils
amounted only t .1,300.0001. the difference, 1,500,0001.
being used in the exportation of sugar from the Brazils
to the Continent of Europe. But it there were no other
considerations, he felt himself justified in the resolution,
he intended upon the bare facts that the revenue of the'
country would be benefited by the change; and also
that those who were immediately concerned would be
Believed. The Right Honourable Gentleman them
moved to the effect that the duty on West India sugar,
be seduced 7s. per cut. and that the duty on East India,
sugar. 975. per cwt. be reduced to 255. per cwt.
The motion having been seconded,
Tne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
be agreed with maoy of the arguments so ably advanced
by his Right Hon: Friend. hut until such a reduction
could be effected in the duties as would ensure such a
tall in the prices as would largely increase the con-
sumption in the home market, he felt himself bound to
maintain that system which had been pursued for so
many years with advantage. The /Pose had pledged
itself to maint4in a surplus revenue tif 3.000.0001.. and
it would be dangerous to adopt any measure which
might lead to an infringement upon that pledge. His
Hoo.Friend proposed a reduction of seven shillings on the
cwt of West India sugar, which was about three farthings
on the pound. Such a reduction he contended would be
but very little felt by the consumer. and consequently a
very small increase in the consumption would take place.
Much had been said respecting the increase which had'
taken plate in the consumption of coffe -, in consequence
of the reduction of • the duties r but then it should be
remembered that so large a reduction had been made,
that the article, formerly a luxury, was now to be ob-
tained by tie middling classes. and even by the poor;
therefore there could be no just argument drawn as to
the probable increase in the consumption of sugar from
a small trouction of the duty. because the consumption
of coffee, under a great reduction of duty, had mate-
?tally increased. Again, with re-pest to smuggling, so
small would be the reduction in the duties, that the al-
lele ion in the price could be very small indeed. But
' let the House look at the prices; in 1815 the ctn. of
sugar was 975. 10d. and in 1828 it was 58s. the cwt.
In these prices the duty was included. Now, although the
difference in prices was great, no proportionate increase
in consumption had token place. The utmo.t increase
in the coosumption they could calculate upon, in con-
sequence of a reduction in the duties of 7,. in the cwt.
was 500,000 cwhand that was an increase which would
in so way compen.aie to the revenue for the loss it
must sustain. The loss to the revenue with that in-
crease of consumption would be about 560 0001. He
should be told that the loss would be but tempo-
rary, and such might be the fact ; but what he wished
to impress on the House war, that it would be unwise
to abandon a certainty at a moment of pressure for the
sake of a possible, and, at all events, a distant gain. He
had already said that he agreed with his Right Hon.
Friend in the general tenour of his argument. and he
would add that under different circumstances he might
not have felt it his duty to oppose the proposition.
Whatever might he the objections to the present duties,
it could .not be urged agai. st them that they acted as
an eiscoutagenient ti e commission oh Crroes.
Mr. BRIGH r entirely agreed with the Right Han.
Member (Mr. Lis ant) in thinking that the duty on West
India sugar should be reduced; the reduction proposed
was not more than the West Indians were entitled to.
In the war time, when a sum of money was required, a
new duty was imposed on sugar, and the West Indians
were lola that the tax was only for a year; but it had
been continued ;ear atter year, and now it was called
permanent. Many interests had been relieved, but the
Culuitivs were hitherto excluded from consiJei ation. and
are saw but tittle chance of a better system sift) respect
to them. Theitight Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grant)
hod proposed also a reduction on East Indian sugar ;
but to that he (Mr. Blight) could not consent until the
too countries were placed upon the same tooting.
Tile East Indies enjoyed tree trade with all the world;
but to the West Indians you said—" You shall take
our manulactures. and ours alone." Give the West
Indies a free trade, arid he would no longer object to,
an equalize• on of duties—(Hear, hear). It a free
trade were granted, how great would be the chinger
From the conduct of Hayti the 'latish manufacturers
naught learn ; indeed so great would be the change, that
he Was COOTII•Ced the pasties interested in this county
not in the West ladies, would even consent to it.
did not dispute respecting the goodness of the policy
pursued towards the West Indies, but he contended that
if Colonies were berthened as they were they ought to
receive protection. Would the British manufacturer and
landowner give up the monopolies they enjoyed over

tl e West Indian proprietors for the sake of the burets -
which would take plamin the corsumption If seem ?
He was satisfied they would do no such thing—
(Hear, hear). He contended that the admission of
I foreign sugars would cause an increase in the slave
trade That increase was actually going on. and was car•
tied to a most daring height. There was an island called
Madagascar. and the HoJse had been induced to admit
the danger of that island under the supposition that the
slave trade had ceased there. That. however, was a
most doubtful question; and at the best our faith was
placed in a barbarous Monarch. That good sort of
S4vage was now dead. and be much feared a change
id policy. To that point he c 411 rd the attention of Go-
vernment. He had heard that it had been intimated
that evening that this country would interfere directly
with the legislat►►res of the West India Islands. If an)
such proceeding should be attempted, it should have t is
most earnest opposition. He supported the proposition
for a reduction ►n the duties on West India sugar. but
opposed that part of the motion of the Rt. Hon. Gent.
(Mr. Giant) which had reference to East India sugar.
Mr. W. WHITMORE supported the proposition of
Mr. Grant. He maintained that the surplus of the
revenue could not be better applied than in the re-
duction of the duties in question, and he was sure
that if this Session should pass over without the adop-
tion of so liberal a plan. in the ant it would be
acceded to. With respect to the monopoly of the
market in the West Indies by our manufacturers. he
was satisfied that it would he readily foregone by
those, if the principles of free trade were fully acted

upon.
Mr. BERNAL advoc •ted a reduction in the duties
on West India sugar. and contended that if such were
the case the consumption would be vastly increased.—
With respect to a reduction in the duties on the East
India sugar. to that pr 'position he could not consent
until the West Indies should enjoy a fiee trade. It was
said they did at present; hut the fact was adverse to
that assertion. Take, for instarce, the article of herrings.
Upon every estate cohtaining2so negroes.7o to 100 casks
of herrings were consumed. Those herrings o ere sent
from the East coast of Scotland ; and each ton herrings
cost at present 275. 6d. while the same article was to be
purchased in N rway at 10s. or lls. per ton. That was
a grievance. though it was very for from b. ing the
only one; but whatever might ultimately be the deci
sion of the House with respect to an approach to an
assimilation of the duties on the East and West Indian
sugars, the question appeared to him to have' been
urged at a very unwise period. They had hefoie them
the vast question of the renewal of the Ent India
Company Charter; and when that subject was reg.
lady under discussion, would be the most fitting time
for the House to settle the point respecting East India
sugar.
Mr. TRANT contended that the proposition I f the
Right Hon. Gentleman was a measure of substantial
justice to the East Indies. In consequence of the preient
system. much of the trade of the East Indies went to
foreign ports. If he thought the proposition would do
any injury to the West InJia proprietor, it should not
have his support.
Mr. DOUGLAS said the duty now proposed to be
reduced was, strictly speaking, a war duty. It was
therefore reasonable to expect that it would be reduced
now. after so many years of peace. He trusted the
subject would be seriously looked into next Session of
Parliament.
Mr. HUSKISSON said he agreed with his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor oh the Exchequer, that in
a question of this kind they were not to confis.e their
attention to the single consideration of reduction of
duty. They must look at all the various interests con.
nected with it—the interest of the West and the East
Indies, of the Shipping. of the British Refiner. and of
the numerous class who might derive employment from
the extension of the trade. In addition to this, how-
ever, they ought to look to the interests of the pub-
lic—(Hear, hear). He felt so strongly the claims
of the West India planters that he should not wish
to see other interests promoted at their expense. He
was persuaded that so tar from being Mimed the West
India interest would be advanced by the change pro.
posed. His Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) said the revenue derived from the snide of
sugar was 5,000,000 f. and he seemed to argue as if it
must always continue at that amount. Now that was a
principle he could not admit. If there were good ista-ons
for a reduction of any branch of revenue, the mere cir-
cumstance of its necessarily leading to a diminution of
receipt would not be sufficient argument against it. The
loss to the revenue was calculated at St O.OOW. but then
it was admitted that there must be an increase of con-
sumption, and this would, at least in some degree, com-
pensate for the loss. Whatever the loss might be, still,
when greater and more important interests required the
modification of any duty, they had only to consider
how it could be best effected. Looking at all these
interests, he did not think the loss to the Revenue
ought to outweigh them. Not less than 70.000 tons
of sugar were esportcd last year from the Brands, in
payment for English goods. Now, under a differ-
eat stare of the law, the whole of this produce
might have been brought bete, and given employ-
ment to British refiners and others connected with
that branch of trade, which was a very important and
extensive o e. The consequence of this state of things
was that acre trete at present on the Continent many
refiners who carried on their business with British
capital. It was a short-sighted economy that looked
only at a present reduction of the revenue to the
amount of 200,00 W. or 300.00 W. The present great
consumption of coffee arose from. its cheapness. Per-
haps two thirds of those who used coffee now drank it
without sugar. if sugar wete cheaper, they would use
it, and the consumption would be in proportion to that
of coffee. The Member for Bristol (Mr. Bright) was
not cortect in saying that this country enjoyed a
monopoly iii the supply of the West • ladies. With
the exception of fish and salt provisions, they might
have from other countries any articles they wanted.
They wese not precluded either from importing or
exporting. The proposed reduction would be for the
advantage of the West India interest itself, and give new
life to these Colonies. He trusted a subject of so much
importance as this would not be indefinitely postponed.
It was said that the West Indies were obliged t.* take
their manufactures. All the world, as well as the West
Indies,were obliged to take them, in consequence of their
supra tor cheapness; this could not, therefore, be com-
plained of as a grievance. Oo these grounds be would
support the Resolution.
the Cusirest.Los at the Rxennastaa sad Mr. Bessie espideed
Sir R. FARQUHAR said the Slave Trade had bets completely
estingui•hed in the Mauritius. He emoted that the Inquiry. so
far as regarded his esmdect whileGovemer there, bad act bees fully
gone into. A Clumnderee was appointed four years back to inves-
tigate the subject. ctrl the evideste amorist* brake down unlit
the Hos. Geothous opposite (Mr. F. Beaton.)
Mr. BAILING s.Yhe bed se objeeties to we the ditty es Belt
and Meg India Sept elm AAA It would mot however be ad•
viable la the .es.m sate et the remote to de any dintleunien
it. For this reason be oust at present oppose the propeeltioo.
Mr. F. BUXTON said he was coovamett that the Move Trade'
was prevalent in the Mauritius daring the Gieenunestel the Hos.'

Bonnet (Sir R. Farquhar,. aid it was only Mame that petmire.
him from pro.eming the inquiry. The seldom did oat kiwi
down. sad be offered to put in the hands of Government dooms%
which mold have shown beyond a doubt that the Siam Trade stns
carried on as be had before stated.
Sir R. FA IiQU HAR said he did not men so dewy that the trade
was carded on for a t ime, bet it cea.ed altogether la March mi.
He challenged ineplry into ilk we
Of toe
Mr. HUSKISSON said the Goverment dM not think it it"
to prosecute an inquiry which had bees COnsoteaced before a Om,
mitts", sod it was for that reason the documents Waded to by*
lion. Gentleman (Mr. deetoo) were net made ose of.
Mr. C. GLOM and the Csearemsea of the Racsiagm .5.
plained. The Home then divided—
Ayes .. .. 000 ••• Ome le
Noes .. ... « ... «. es
Majority against the Resolution of Mr Grant ...3,
The original Resolution was agreed to, and the Maim wises,.
dered to be received to morrow.

POLICE 141.5.
Mr. Secretary PEEL moved the Order of the Sy; ist aor
third reading of the bierropolis Police
The question being put that the Bill be read a tiled time,
Mr. C. PELH A hi opposed the MIL
The Mill having hem read a third bate.
Mr. Secretary PEEL reposed a mew clause relative t• sir
miutontea of parishes.
Mr. DELO IIT said he still continued of ebe same opinion wile
respect to the Bal.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said that, since the period the ilonseralir
Niember bad eitade Ms objections to the Rill, be bad received ate
less than three applications horn ddferent parishes to he ludem •
hi it.—The Dili was then passed.
TIM [Wel essaca.
Lord LOWTHER moved the Order of the Day far the now
going into a Committee on the Land Revenue Usti.
Colonel DAVIS sail this Bill, in point of fact,
affected the interests of the public. - He objected to
the power given by the Bill for applying the molar .1
t . the repair of Buckingham Palace; and also to the
clause which enabled the COMM • sinners of Woods ant.
Ferests to dispose of the Croon lands, by We.' He'
meant to propose that all sale. of this kind should heir •
public auction. Tile otigsssal estimation for Buck.
Ingham Palace Was 250.1)001. It was then said the
no intention existed of expending large sums, bat
the e,tinia•e already amounted to CV 0001 The es.
penseot sculpture and the 11341b1e etch was not included
in that estimate. The expense of sculpture fo tt e inch•
atone was 56,4501. Mr Nash alwat s eluded the questi,.a
as to the expense of sculpture. The total expense cf the
arch would be 50,0061. He d. übted whether it weld*
be a suitable °satanical after all, when contrasted with.
the dingy hue which the Palace mud, like other
logs, ultimately assunte. Mr. Nash said, t•-at by per.
chasing the amble himself these was a saving effected'
of 9,0001. One of the bosses to which he said he sub.
milted the marble for inspection was that of Grady,
wit . dewed .that the marble was ever submitted's,
his inspection, or that he was cc &wilted. He did not
know upon what ground an architect charged commit.
sion. That allotted to Mr Nash was 51. pea cent. The
total of commission received b)theArchitect w 4624.60%
in six years, making upwards of 4,0001. a year. The
whole expense was 496 0001. but he was sure it *as
nothing like the sum which would be rh quilted. Mt.
Nash intended to have two fountains. and other woks
would be considered necessary. He (Col. Davis) bedroll
knowledge of Mr. Nash, and he was sorry to consider it
'his duty to make charges against that individual of a
serious character. A sense of public duty alone induced
him to make these charges. He had to charge him
with fraud in the valuation of Crown leases. It would
appear that a Mr. Edwards, who was known to Mr.
Nash, applied for the lease of ground near Selfolt
street. The ground was valued by Mr. Nash sod
sold to Edwards. The Commissioness of Woods and
Forests were then told that Edwards bad not capital
enough to realize his bargain, and Mr. Naps, tit
he would have the ground himself. Edvratds was
apparently a man of straw; and Mr. Nash having
taken the leases, carried them into the market, where
he sold them for a profit of four or five bundled
per cent. In February, 1816, several plots of posed
were conveyed to Mr. Nash on the nomination st
the Regent's Canal Company. That Company had
received the land on the valuation of Mr. Nash.
and it was but gratitude in them to make him a
retain. The Hon. Member found that five and a
half acres of land wets sold to the Regent's Cad
Company at 5601. per acre. He also found the
the land • f the Duke of Bedford, and othets in the
vicinity of the metropolis, so.d foe 4.5001. per acre, eel
why land in the Regent's Park sold lot 5601. an acre ht
did not know. The Hon. Member did not wish to take
up the time of the House by making other charges of el
similar character. His hope was that Mr. Nash would
be able to exculpate himself; but if they were nue, the
vengeance of the law ought to fall on the pet son who
had abused the confidence of the Soveseign and Paella.
matt. He objected to the disposal of the property of
the Crown in the way he had stated. it appeared to he
a gross job. He knew he was correct in his stemma,
having received his information from an individual
whose accuracy and veracity he could not doubt. k
was his intention to move for a Select Committee to is.
quite into the works of Buckingham palace, and the
terms on which Clown Leases had been grassed
We-twiti.ter.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did
not rise to follow the Hon. Member through his objet-
lions to the Bill, because it would be discoved in de
Committee. He had objected on a dormer occasion ta
an indefinite appopttation of the public mot ey to
Buckingham Huu.e. The Right Honvis able Gado
man bad already stated the ptopriety of placing a lies(
to the expenditure epos that building. The estissis
was on the table, arid he psoposid that eirentel •
knelt a clause to limit the appropriation 1,1 pet&
funds. The House would therefore- see 'that da
Government had no desire to increase unneceisseif
the expense, or act unfairly by Parliament. There too
one put of the Hon. Gentleman's speech on which W
was dragons of making a few observations. The Res
Gentleman had brought charges against the ambito'
in his transactions wbtistemp4 yed under the departing
of the Woods and Forests. It was impossible be nil
answer some charges brought against M r.Nash, bents
they related to transactions which must have °mewl
before I e was in office. The Hon.Gent.hed 'boded.'
one transaction, which it was but justice to Mr. Nash a
answer. It was stated to him some time since that load
thecorner of Suffolk•street had been sold to Mr. liwk
and that it bad been sold again with great advsetsr
The Right Honourable Gentleman thought it tight W
make inquiry. it appeared that Mr. Edwards bad 4'
plied to take part of the land, and as it was knows (fit
Edwards was in connection with Nash, the CoowiP
stoners of Woods and Forestscontideted it impttlre_,
take Nash's valuation. They consequently emflolg•
Mr. Shaw to value the land, and *obis valuation it ow
let to Edwards. The House would see, therefore• dig
the charge made by the Hon. Member was net offeill
could be sustained.
Colonel DAVIS explained. His informant 88104_,
him that Mr. Shaw never saw the land, but Taw
upss Nosh's representation.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said when it was Inures 6.11
Mr. Edwards was the friend of Mr. Nash. the Co 00:
Awn of Woods and Forests sent for Mr: SW"
Itniessore the land. H. considered the information rf.
tli Ihe Hon. Walks false. Mr. Nash, in his WOO

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