Star.
London, England, 1819-02-23 00:00:00

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dents of former times, for it was a great relief to
find them for a guidance. It was at the same time
impossible not to presume and be confident that the
individuals who had entered the Royal Household
had done it not merely with a view to the salaries
which they received, but to the ultimate provision
which was held out to them by those precedents.
There was another point also which entitled them to
consideration. There was a strong indisposition in
families to receive any persons who had belonged to
the Royal Household, from an apprehension that
they must have contracted habits which it would be
difficult to conciliate with a lowei situation. If pre-
cedents on the point were required, those of the
Dowager Princess of Wales, and even of Queen
Mary, might be quoted, but Parliament would exer-
cise their judgment upon them, and take an econo-
mical view the question. s The course which the
Committee had taken, was to propose, as a remunera-
tion for the servants of her late Majesty, the continu-
ation of their salaries, especially to the female atten-
dants. With respect to the Officers of State belonging
to the Establishment, the ancient precedents had not
been followed. The superannuation was to be with-'
holden from them, which would occasion a diminu-
tion of £7,000, and reduce the amount of the super-
annuations to a sum between £lB,OOO and £19,000.
This sum was smaller than that granted to the Ser-
vants of the Princess Dowager of Wales and Queen
Caroline, and the same as that which the :ervants of

Queen Anne had received, though there was such a
difference in the value of money. The 3d Resolution
he should combine with the 4th, as it was to the lat-
ter he understood the attention of the House would
be principally drawn, and it was likely to receive au
amendment from the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, with respect to the principle which ought to re-
gulate the management of his Majesty's privy purse.
lie should propose to follow strictly the precedent of
181'2, and that the Custos should undergo no altera-
tion in his emoluments, any more than in his duties.
The Right Hon. Gentleimm had intimated an inten-
tion to propose that the provision for the Custos
should be taken out of the Privy Purse instead of the
Civil List. But in every view which that Right Hon.
Member might take of the question, to touch that
fund as if it were a public fund, he trusted it would
be proved that he was indefensible by law. He (Lord
Castlereagh) undertook this task on no other ground
than that of principle, for be had understood that
the question would be raised, not as to the amount
of the sum, but the fund out of which it was to be
.drawn. On the pi inciple o the appointment itself,
all could but be agreed. It was a the highest im-
portance that a duty so eminently public should be'
set up in strong contradistinction to any appointment
cif an inferior nature. The only question, therefore,
must be, whether the money should be taken out of
the 'Civil List or the Privy Purse? It was impossible
to conceive how much greater difficulty there was in
Obtaining front the House any grant for a Member
of the Royal Family, than for any other individual
to whom the same idea of Crown patronage would
not be attached. Never had a course more tempting
for a Minister to pursue offered itself, than that of
Complying with the suggestions of thetther side of .
thej
House. In arguing that the privy purse was an
inviolable fund, like the private property of every
individual, he therefore only acted from a sense of,
duty, for it would have been much easier for him to
close with the proposition of the Right Honourable
Gentleman.' All difficulties Would then have vanish-
ed away, and nothing would have remained but the
consciousness of having taken an Illegal and unjusti-
fiable step. He considered the PrivyTurse as a hind
Which no one could touch, and not liable to any
charges which might be made by the Court of Chan-
cery on the private property of any other lunatic.—
lie meant provided Parliament should deal with it
according to those principles of integrity and justice
which it had always displayed towards the highest
and lowest subject of the realm. lie maintained that
the privy purse was the private property of his Ma-
jesty in every
_possible view, and was entirely pie-
tected against the doubts which the public character
of the King might raise, as to its nature. Had the
question been raised antecedently to the passing of
the 39th and 40th of his Majesty, be would not say
that the matter might not have been open to discus:ion.
It might have been decided whether the £60,000 of
the Privy Purse and theßevenue of the Duchy of Lan-
caster, were to he made the entire p:ivate property of
his Majesty, or subject to the control of Parliament.—
But after the p assing of that Act, all dissension on
the subject had ceased to reside with Parliament ; for
that Act had completely separated the capacity of his
Majesty as King, from his capacity of a private per-
sim. It had suffered his Majesty, in the midst of the
cares of his elevated situation, to enjoy all his rights
as a private individual. It had enabled him to held
property of which he could dispose by will or other-
wise as he might think proper, not only prospectively,
bclt. retrospectively. If any doubt had remained on
that subject, it would have been entirely set at rest in
1812, %%len Parliament had reco„,,,nized the Privy
Purse as the privatepropeity of his Majesty, described
it as amounting to £60,000, and tied it up, on ac-
count of a malady which there was no reasonable
hope would be of scion duration, as constituting part
of the King's private property. No charge had hi-
therto been thrown upon it but of a private nature,
and conformably with the intentions which his Ma-
jesty was known to have expressed. When he (Lord
Castlereagh) had originally opened the subject to the
House, he had considered two or three charges as
so entirely of a private nature, and the wishes of his
Majesty, that he had been induced to think they
might be defrayed out of the Privy Parse. But he
had since abandoned the idea, lest he should throw
the least shadow of doubt on the total inviolability
of that fund. No charge could be made upon it,
without a departure from the compact entered into
with the Crown, whatever might be done by the
Court of Equity in the case of a private lunatic.--
And should he propose to guard the sacred person of
our afflicted Sovereign as that of a private indivi-
dual, he knew a feeling would rite in the House
sihith vlould spurn at so monstrous a proposition.
Although little hope of his recovery remained, let
him be surrounded with such a state as would spew,
• ithaenothing could deprive him of the love and ye.'
aeration ofbis people. In the case of a private Or-
ion it would be a matter of course to defray all the
criipenies of his attendance and support out of his
own property. But was that the course which Par-

liament ought to,pursue toward* the King
?—(hear).
If it were, lee would place his foot on the Report of
I
Vie Committee. It had been the practice of Parlia-,
went at all former reigns to allow certain new classes
of duties to increase the revenue of the Sovereign.
If those had been Applied to the service of his Ma.
jesty, he would now have an income of two mil-
lions, or at least far more than would cover the
amount of the Civil List. But the Sovereign had
given up those productive sources of revenue to the.
Public for a settled consideration. All the services
charged on that. fund were performed on
public
grounfls, and by public officers. Ought they there-
fore to be defrayed out of his private property? He
did not deny that the Civil List should undergo some
modification, as in 1811 He even noweproposed
one of a similar nature; but he maintained that his
Majesty had rights which were still as sacred as those
by which he held the throne of these realms, and ,
made him no less our Sovereign because he was in
his present unfortunate situation. If the reasons which
he had adduced on that subject were not conclusive,
he trusted the practice of Parliament would prove so.
With respect to the Curios Persona, did any officer
ever bear a more exclusively public character? If
he were asked; what was the officer in whom the con-
fidence of the people should be most firmly placed?
he would say, that person who was to stand as the
shield of the constitution and the country against the
ambition of any individual wishing to accelerate an-
other reign—(Hear, hear.) Was such a person, hold-
ing so important an office, to be dwindled into a
nurse?—(Hear, hear!) Whatever the House did,
let it do it in a manly manner—(Hear, hear.) If any
officer on the establishment was more especially con-
stitutional, it was the Custos Persona. What did the
Act of Parliament say—both of them? A slight
variation was made in the second, of which he would
afterwards speak ; but both of them trusted the privy
purse as the recognized property of his Majesty. It
was not to be considered now as a fund simply be-
longing to his Majesty ; because it was possible that,
in pursuance of the powers vested ,in him for that
purpose by Parliament. his Majesty might have di-
vested himself of all his rights in it. It might be
that his Majesty had, previous to his illness, deviscd
that fund, of which the Right Honourable Gentleman
now wished Parliament to assume the disposal, to
the person whom his Majesty might appoint his red-
duary legatee. His Majesty might have granted a
vested interest in those very funds; therefore in truth
the question was, whether the House had the power
to take th.e surplus of the privy purse, or to throw on
it the charges of the Custos, without violating the
first principles of private property—(/fen;, hear.) 11
be had succeeded in conveying to the Ilouse any
tliin; like the impression on his own mind—if the
chat acter of the funds in question was such as he had
described it—if the argument of its being private
property was applicable to the case—he was swe
that Parliament would never be persuaded to take
any step in so clear a case, and that they would never
consent to a measure whi<h would violate all the
principles on which property was protected. And
he iveuld wish to put it to the House, whether, when,
in the height of his power they gave his Majesty the
power of disposing of this property—a power which
he but possessed in common with the meanest of his
subjects—namely, that of g'ving assay, in such .a
manner as he pleased, those sums which might be
saved from private income? But he would put it to
the House, whether, if they gave this right to his
Majesty whi;n in the zenith of his power, would the
Commons of England—this House, which was corn-
kmencing its career, and which was now to make it-
self a character with the nation—(Loud cheers fi out
both sides of the Ifouse)—would this House, which was
flow abot.t to come to a decision which would pro-
duce the first and stronge't impression of its charac-
ter—would they do that to their helpless Monarch,
which, if done to a private individual, would be con-
sidered a monstrous and unjustifiable violation of
private property—and would they do it to their un-
happy Monarch in his weakness and his sickness
chars.) Would they stain the annals of the na-
tion, by acting on a principle which no Parliament
had ever so lar compromised their character as to act
upon it?—(Hear, hear!) Was this the first time that
Parliament had been solicitei to violate the right of
private property? Was this the List time that it had
been suggested to the House as convenient to lay
hold of funds which were unprotected private pro-
perty? And had such propositions ever beep enter-
tained, ever been listened to, by the House?—(Hear,
hear, hear.) lf, 'amidst all the dangers and emer-
gencies and pressure of the late war, the House had
resisted the proposal which had been made to seize
the property of our enemies, vested in the public
funds of the country—if the House had even refused
to tax that property, notwithstanding all the endea-
vours to persuade them of the justice and equity of
imposing such a %ix as the fair price for the protec-
tion of the property—if the Commons of England
had theintegrity to decline any such measure, would
they now lay a heavy band on the small remnant of
the private property of his Majesty? (Loud cheering.)
Indeed, he could hardly think it possible that the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) would
behold enough to propose such a thing to the House.
(Hear, hear.) Certainly he did give that Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman credit for so much true English
feeling—for so much political prudence—for so much
perspicuity—for se much regard to the great princi-
ples of the law of property—that he would be much
surprised if he pressed his proposal to a division, or
even brought it before the House. But if he pressed
it to a question, on his conscience, he thought that to
agree to it would consign them to infamy in the esti-
mation of the country—(Loud cheering.) But if the
Right Honourable Gentleman had nerve enough to
press it to a division, he trusted that the House would
have such feeling on the legal and constitutional part
of the question, as to meet it with a firm resolution to
preserve the principle of legislative faith—with that
noble sentiment which their ancestors on a former oc-
casion had recorded on the Statute Botilc, a Nolumur
k Loud and continued cheering.)
lees Anglia endari."--{Loud
Ile Noble Lord was then proceeding to move the
first Resolution, but after a short pause rose again
and said, that he should have neglected a part of his
duty son this occasion, if he had omittecrcalling their
attention to the situation in which tl4O RoyaiDuke
was placed who was to be supposed* chiefly con-
cerned in the decision of the House. 'On this sub-
ject he was authorised to deelare to the /louse the'
sentiments of his ROal Higimess. Ile was sun' the

Housewould feel that there was no want of respect
towards them en the part of his Royal Highness.—
On a subject which must so much affeet the feelings
of his Royal Highness, his Majesty's Ministers had
thought.it their duty to communicate with his Royal
Highness upon it, and hewas now bound to apprise
the. House of the result of that communication, so
far as respected his personal feelings. His Royal
Highness had authorised him to state, that nothing
could be more painful to him than that any question
should be brought before the House which con-
nected his name with a money vote ; that if he had
only consiilted his own feelings, and had not felt that
the question was one essentially connected with the
trust which had devolved upon him under such dis-
tressing circumstances, and if he had not felt the ne-
cessity of having the question finally submitted to
the judgment off-the House, nothing could have re-
conciled his Royal Highness to the pain of suck a
discussion. But if the House should think fit, under
all circumstances, to continue this allowance which
they had thought it proper to grapt to his late Mo-
ther, his Royal Highness authorised him to say, that
no consideration could induce him to accept of any
sum out of the Privy Purse of his Majesty—(Loud
cheering.) As to the functions which had devolved
on him with all the melancholy circumstances attend-
ing it he would in any event be happy to discharge
the duties which his situation rendered necessary to.
ward; his Royal Father and his country. In the de-
cision of this question his Royal Highness was very
anxious that every thins affecting himself personally
should be laid out of view. But as to taking any
part of the money out of the private property of his
Father—(Hear, hear, hear,) he desired it to be stated
that it was a measure to 'which, directly or indirectly,
he would never consent—(Loud cheering.) The Noble
Lord conclUded by moving„as the first Resolution,
ak That in lieu of 1:100,000 directed to be issued out
of the Civil List for the Maintenance of the Windsor
Establishment, the sum of 50,0001. be issued for the
like purpose."
Mr. TIERNEY admitted that nothing 'could be
more fair than the statements just made by the Noble
Lord. He should now consider the question before
the House in three different points of view; the first
related to the Windsor Establishment ; the second to
the provision intended to be made for the servants of
the late Queen ; and the third, to the salary intended
for the Duke of York. With regard to the first of
these, he had, at one time, thought that the sum of
50,0(0. was by far too much. But when he heard
it stated, that even if his Majesty should be with-
drawn from ‘Windsor, the expenses of keeping Wind-
sor Castle would still amoinst to 18, or 20,000/.
a-year, he withheld his opposition to the grant, be.
cause he believed that 30,(Xi0/. the remaining; sum,
was not too large for the establishment of his Mil-,
jesty. He would not, therefore, try to bring about
any little miserable plans of economy in this Es-
tablishment. If he had investigated all the items,,
he might probably have ettected some little savings
of about $ or 40004 a year, hut that he felt no
nation to do; the task would have been painful and
invidious. Indeed, there was enough of Royal de-
bates already in that House, and he greatly lamented
that the career had not been closed long since, and
that it was again opened afresh in the' present dis-
cussion. With regard to making a provision for the
Queen's servants, it must be a matter of regret that
this part of the subject had ever been referred to a
Committee. In former times, the Kings and Queens
of England made provisions for their servants, with-
out ever calling for the interference of Parliament.
lndeen, the Member,s of the Committee had a hard
duty imposed on them. They had to consider of the
provision to be made for Ladies of rank, and all the
circumstances of their embarrassed situationswere thus
exposed. The House would recollect, that when this
measure was first proposed, the Noble Lord said that
Gentlemen were to be provided for as well as Lords
and Ladies ; and 25,0001. was fixed fot the whole.—
He (Mr. Tierney) objected to this latter provision,
and the Noble Lord himself very properly withdrew
the proposition. in this conduct the Ministers might
be compared to certain young elephants, which were
ready to learn every kind'. of trick that might be
taught them, and which would even take a shilling
out of a countryman's pocket. But when aroused
and sent into battle, they became very shy as well
as timid, and upon an attempt made to goad them
forward, they would turn about and trample on their
'own friends. Such was the case with those Ministers
who shrunk from the bold proposal they had first
made. He now came to the principal question on
which the Noble Lord bad dwelt so long ; and after
the eloquent declaration of, his Lordship on the sub-
ject, he should throw himself on the mercy of the
House, for if he succeeded in his proposition, he
should, ycording to the declaration of the Noble
supPsedcecteirovt:geri fal:t.i.nsiedhsctee.
Lord, be throwing infamy on a new House of Com-
mons. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.)— But convinced
that he was acting on a principle of public duty, he
should go on. With regard to any sum that might
be voted out of the Privy Purse to the Royal Duke,
if the House of Commons acted an infamous part in
voting it, surely his Royal Highness could not be in-
famous if he-received it. He maintained, that any
sum, from whatever source, which Parliament might
offer, the proudest Duke in the world ought not to
disdain accepting. The Act *hick originally gave
to the King £1300,000 per annum,
olvwfoiluth,ladrthitiaaemkdeeisnup:p7ipt
rihooinpmerosefilgfusaipleealseckhsiaunrF
isotitetioltienr
at all. There was a certain understanding between
bis Majesty and his Ministers about the propriety of
making disbursements from the sum. Originally,
£48,000.a year was thought a sufficient sum to cover
incidental expenses,. but it was found afterwards ne-
cessary to increase this to Cro,oool. a year, in conse-
quence of the additional expenditure created by the
Royal Children, and other charges. It was not until
1759, that the Privy Purse was recognized at all,
and it did not come again under the consideration of
Parliament until 1799, when his Majesty intimated
a desire to be put into a situation which would en-
able him to dispose of it by Will. The King's private
property arose principplly from the profits of the
Privy Purse and the issues accruing from the Duchy
of Lancaster. The principal motive that induced his
Majesty, at this period, to desire being enabled to
purchase property,, was with a view of being able to
perfect the works which were then in at Kew
Palace, fir the use of her *MajestT. 7rl at gave
his Majesty a power of tarrying sato effect his wen-

lions, and distinctly recognized the sum of
which was now before the House. By Acts 'y
40 of the King, the property was put at his
and his right of transferring it was declared
unrestricted as that of any individual in that
—(hear, hear.)—This portion of the private
should be held sacred and inviolable.
Majesty was taken ill, the Ministers nzturall
culated upon a speedy recovery, and in
to arrange mauers in such a way as weeld
agreeable to Royal delicacy, they proposed thez
of the King. But he would ask, where wast 4
cessity to intrsduce into this latter Act a pro-:
for the Privy Purse, if it had been settled ti,
ably on his Majesty for his life?—(hear,
This Act directed that a sum of 4;60,0o0 sly
placed at the disposal of the Keeper of the
Purse, who was tg put it to such uses, in'
chase of private property as, he should deem
his own name, but for his Majesty's use and'
It soon, however, became evident, from the
of the Physicians taken before the Privy
that little prospect was to be entertained *ibis
jesty's recovery, and then it became the duty cf,
liament to make a new arrangement upon a mote
tensive scale. It was then put into the hands
Queen, the Prince Regent, and the Keeper of
Privy Purse ; and this Act distinctly proposes,l
'all reasonable expenses incid,mt to the care of
Majesty's Person, should be charged upon the ear;
of the Privy Purse, so that his 'notion so far,
being infamous, as it was charged by Gentlemen
the other side, had actually the sanction of tire,
branches of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) 13
former Acts, viz. 39 and 40 of the King, three(::.
missioners were entrusted with the management
ithe property, without Parliamentar7 authority;
so sacred was their. trust that they took a sc,
oath before entering upon the discharge of the4r
not to disclose any thing regarding this prop
unless it should be in cases where their interf
would be to its benefit. The Act of 39 of the Is
rendered it so sacred, that it was not left armee
to any tribunal; but it must ever be emcee:
that there was a very groat distinction bettered
property thus vested in Isis Majesty, and that cf
other person. The Privy Purse was private pre'
but it did not come within the general deti,:it;
all private property. If it had been of that
tion, which would, properly speaking, he called
vase property, it should not now be made asubi
of discussion here.—( Hear, hear.) The sutras._"
upon the Privy Purse were an annual outgoing
1:15,000 per annum, and a quarterly one of £4,9a
making in all about E 32,000 a year. These ,
were found not to be, sufficient, and it becare e 6
cceeary, in 1812, to provide a further sum of ts.efe
It was shortly after wards found necessary to
the quarterly incumbrance from 4,20 u/. to 4;:r
and this Was the first alteration made in it subset'
to its passing. The country had been led i:::u
expense in consequence of the Royal illness, zed the
attendance of Physicians, which was not at firs: cca•
templated. In the early stages of that rred,:lero-be,
lamented illness, the expense was a great deal na4
than it was now, because the Physicrais were daily
in attendance, and the nature of the case require(
more unrernitted observation.. It was a little Tr
markable, that the very Act which provided
the expenses, in its recital, enacted that ail reason.
able charges which should be. req_ i;-e:! to deli:::
expenses incident to the care of his Majesty's Pe,
should be defrayed from the surplus of the I':
Purse—(Hear, hear) ;—and yet, inensi,tere 7S
may seem now, the very same Act which seem
reasonable to burden the Itivy Purse in one iietance
should be deemed infamous in another—lifer
bear).--If the Act was made answerable 167 t'ax'i
'inconsistency, it was too much, at this distance:
eight years, to charge him with originating that •
consistency ; that house had applied the saving,
1751 to the contemplated wants of 1752, and the
resumed, in some measure, the money they
granted ; so closely did they pursue this sum, as ci.t
over which they had a dominion, and enacted that tht
Commissioners should repay whatever should tx
wanting. The expenses which came under the demo
urination of reasonable should be charged upon t.:'
Privy Purse ; but that House and the Country hen
,already done so much towards ameliorating and rri
nistering to the distresses of his Majesty's situation
that no candid person could charge them with a wan
of zeal. All that had been asked for the Windex
Establishment had been granted them, and it was no.
asked of his Majesty to deny himself any gratifil
tion, but they only desired that the proceeds
Privy Purse should not accrue for the benefit
successor. We had already two Privy Purses;
Privy Purse of his Royal Highness the Prince Re ant
was still taken in the name and behalf of his Majesty'
The Privy Purse, though private property, was
to be distinguished from every other species
sate property, and surely the advocates of the
of Custos, if they meant to designate it as reason
able, should impose it according to the spirit
Act, upon the surplus of the Privy Purse. A:
aim had been made to the probable course wl
Court of Equity would have taken, under the
circumstances, but he should not hesitate to sa!
in the eye of the law, the estate of the lunatic
Intidened with his support. It was another
tion, to what extent that should be burdened,
be should be glad to know from the Noble Lcrd
posite before he proceeded further, whether the b'
pnnciple that it ought, in the. first instance,
burdened at all, would be conceded to him
Mama on one of the Ministerial benches, ,
No!")—He expressed himself a little disappei.ite,
*at this should not be liberally conceded to '
but that should not deter him from proceedinl
tber; and until he should havelbeen left in a

rity in the House, he should think it amounted
abandonment of his duty to forego pressing
the consideration of the House his opinion of
momentous subject. He should, therefore, penpcs4
two Resolutions : That 1.30,000 a-year be grams
the support of the Windsor Estahlishment and,
the surplus of the proceeds of the Duchy of Lama
ter, together with. the £60,000 vested in the KeePel
of the Privy Purse, be °applied towards defrx
the expenses incurred by the care of his Majesty'.
son. It was by the course they should pursue on
question that the character of the new Parliament
was to be judged ; and it was unnecessary to remind
them, that at a period like the present, every pos‘tbk
rattlOA should be macic to reduce the public oposo

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as reason
irit of fa,
An alit:.
e which
the sac'
o say, [O.
atic woul•
ther ques•
ened, a.. 0
Lord op•
the broad
Ice, to he
tim ?—tA
sa;d7
appointe.
to
eding f*-1•
o a Irmo.
rated to al
irg uP"
nt of
propose
;ranted •C
and, tl:4
if Lanco'
le Keeper
defraYill
esty•sfer*
ae on aril
'arliament
to rerni3d
Tppearost.ibl:
o

the same time that their duty and their &ants
I point out to them not to put bounds to their
in shewing attachment towards their venerable
they should carefully guard themselves
ipromming in that expression any of those
, important duties which were owing to the
and their constituents. The Noble Lord
not have been too hasty in thus urging upon
of Members of the Royal Family measure
were likely to meet an equivocal reception.
', and he was willing to' ive the Noble
every credit for his disinterestedness, that he
reluctant agent in the anir. Perhaps,, if his
had been consulted, be would have
urging it at all upon the House; but W
be resolved that this £IO,OOO a year was be
, in the name of common justice, let it be
upon the proceed% of the Privy Purse, and
as convinced the measure would meet with
objection from any part of the House. If
Highness had been aware of the discussions
,is would provoke, he was sure he would of
decline altogether accepting it. The Minis-
, already brought some of the Members of
oval Family into rather awkward situations
the flonsc by the measures which were proposed
,r, when, in one instance, he set out by asking
.2.1,01. a-year, but in a retrograde movement
he subsequently made, he was glad to corn-
influence by accepting the sum of 60001.
,:ers may, perhaps, think themselves justified in
-ng their reputation with the House fear-
,but they should ever remember, that, by iden-
ig themselves with the Members Of the Royal
ay, they unguardedly pledged them to an ex-
that was not compatible with their character or
ity. These Royal Personages had a high cha-
rto preserve and keep nn, which was not to be
' with wantonly, and which Ministers were too

ising in meddling with. He would again say,
:rom the character of his Royal Highness the
of York, he was convinced that ROyal Per-

re • would withdraw his claim of £lO,OOO
;tar, rather than subject himself to the angry issue
a discussion which it would necessarily provoke.
should not be glad to be forming unpleasing anti-
'ion, but he should be almost inclined to suspect,
in the end he should get nothing. He felt the
iety of trespassing so long upon the House ;
he could not help taking a review of the kindly
ition which Parliament had ever shown towards

Gown since 1811 ; and perhaps it would not be
_nye a name to designate its return, by calling
ingratitude. By 51st of the King, 60,0001. was
ited for the use of his Majesty, besides the profits
the Duchy of Lancaster, which are .estimated at
1/. a year. Since 1810, from the estimates, it
, appear that there were net savings from the
hey Purse amounting to 57,0001. and these were
•creasing. The Prince t had also his Privy
together with 10,0001. more
really; aides Prince o ales and Duke of Corn. I
all, he received 17,0001. more, making a total of
1,0001. a year. Of this he had appropriated a sum
'50,000/. a year to pay his debts, asides the allow-
to the Princess of Wales; but as for the fint, if
as it has often been called, a sacrifice on his
loyal Highness's part; he should ..ae glad to know
lea much the public gained by it, for they were ac-
etify paving his debts at this moment ? Yet, after
i'..hesu instances of unexampled liberality, the tli-
iimagain comes forward and claims 10,000/. a year
ewe, and will even go to far as to characterize as
things an unwillingness to grant it—(llear, hear).
Ire was nothing preposterous or unreasonable in
ii proposed mode, and be would divide the House
',:a its expediency. It should be the endeavour of
stry Ivan in that House to land himself to such re-
:ions as the present distressed state of the country
d'Al fat; and it was incumbent on them to shield
Crwipale country, and all the property of the coun-
ty, from being thrown fat the mercy, or being in-
x.ted by the affected and canting phrase of Ministers.
Kr. Piet. and the SOLICITOR-GENERAL rose at
he same time, but there was a general call for Mr.,
Peel, and the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
pre way.
Hr. PEEL said he was aware of the disadvantage
to which he exposed himself in following the Right
lion. Gentleman, yet be was anxious thus early to
aildre,s to the House a few observations before their
attention was exhausted. Notwithstanding the speech
tithe Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Peel) still re-
Liked the same opinion upon this question with which
ite had come down to the House. From the time
silts the Right Hon. Gentleman had given notice
o: the nature of the proposition which he intended to,
Inbmit to the House, there was but one opinion
which he could bring himself to entertain of it, so
hr as concerned the tenure of the property with
Ibich it went to interfere. So far as related to the
right of property it was a flagrant violation of jus-
*.—(Ncar.) So far as it concerned the feelings of
tti MmLer of the Royal Family, it was indelicate—
Oho, hear,)—and so far as regarded the public in-
lett, it was no more than a monstrous violation of
i+blic principle, turredeemeel and uncompensated by
to sordid advantage proposed.—(Hchr, heal-, hear.)
' diwnisia7, the question, however, he thought it
t:4ocessary to enlist on his side of the argument
at which night be drawn from the rank of the So.
'riga, ar,d affection to his person. He was pre-
-10,1, leaving these topics untouched, to treat the
(11:tstion temperately and dispassionately on its own
.t.terilt, confining himself to that part of the ques-
ste_.which went to the appropriation of the surplus
l'„ tae privy purse for the expenses of the Custos.l
,'s '-e ryht llonourable Gentleman, in the conduct of,
argument, had thought it material to consider
t*lent was the privy purse. In his recapitulation of
to various Acts of Parliament upon the subject, he
Wer.tuod theßight Honourable Gentleman to say,'
t' the Act o: the 39th and 4.oth of the King was
_e,.,e-t !hest in which there was any mention of the'
1t..,:
aY Purse—that in this Act nothing was said as to
4 am nt et the privy purse, and that it was not
, i
begti thet
:'e kit !lc the 51st, that any mention was made,
pictise amount. Now this, he maintained,
has
~,ers.o.np,etely erroamts statement-of thc factul
u e not an allocation of the sum for the privy
/rite before the list of the 39th and 40th ? If there
It'at.t.,, atn.d.if it had been recognised by Parliament, the'
`,',11 Honour.ible Gentknian's argument must fail.
.., title Was „ . . •
,_,ng.tt
to
appropriate C 60,000 for the privy purse
won
the SOdi and 40th,,then that Act

must be considered as putting the Crqrn in full pot:.
session of a right to that sum ; and if so, any attempt
to interfere with it now was a gross violation of the
right and principles of property. On these premises
he founded his argument. Now the fact was, that
between the Act of the Ist, and the .39th and 40th,
an Act was passed in which there was a dis-
thict mention of the privy purse. It was an Act
which directed that certain Estimates should be
made out for the appropriation of the whole
sum at the disposal of the Crown, and that when they
were so made out, they should be submitted for the
approbation of Parliament. Pursuant to this Act
Estimates were made out--one was for the sum of

60,000/. as the Privy Purse, and it received the sanc-
tion of Parliament ; this was decisive. Therefore,
in 1782, there was a direct recognition by Parlia-
ment of the amount of the Privy Purse. Mr. Peel
'then drew the attention of the Committee to Mr.
Pitt's Bill in the year 1788 or 1789, when a Regency
was in contemplation. He made a particular refe-
rence to the clause in which a provision was made
for what was considered his Majesty's private pro-
perty, by an exception in favour of the renewal of
leases, &c. Provision was also made for any surplus
which might arise in trust for his Majesty. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) •had remarked,
that if the money arising from the Privy Purse had
been diverted from its supposed definitive object in
one instance, why not in more? If the Medical at-
tendants were at any time paid out of it, why not
apply it• to defray the 10,0001. for the (7ustos ? But
the Honourable Gentleman would please to recollect
that such a misapplication of it would be the viola-
tion of an Act of Parliament. If, says the Ho-
nourable Gentleman, you charged the Privy Purse
sometimes with the Medical Attendants prior to the
Act of 1812, why not charge it also with the ten thou-
sand pounds for"the Custos in the year 1819? The
Honourable Gentleman stated that he had already
noticed that such a misapplication of the Privy Purse
would be a violation of the Act of Parliament.--

The Honourable Member might as well ask, why
not have charged the Privy Purse with the £lO,OOO
granted to the Qucen in 1811., when Mr. Perceval
brought forward his propositions respecting the
Windsor Establishment ? He had recommended the
appointimmt of a Secret Committee to inquire into
the state ef the Privy Purse, and to report thereon.l
But when that question was under the consideration
of the House, two Gentlemen, then Members of
that House (Mr. Sheridan and Mr. Adam), although
always voting with Opposition, reprobated the ap-
pointment of any such Committee, affirming, that
on, so delicate a subject they could not, on their parts,
permit any inquiry of the nature then suggested.
The one was a Gentleman deservedly esteemed by
the Honourable Member (Mr. Tierney) and his friends;
and the other had long been the admiration of every
one for the uncommon brilliancy of his talents, and
wonderful powers of eloquence. It was to be hoped
therefore, that the Gentlemen on the opposite side
would shew their regard for such respectable autho-
rities by voting for the original motion. The Royal
Duke (York) was about to be invested with an office
of the highest importance, in addition to that which
he now held, and the duties of which he had so
laudably discharged. But if Gentlemen were ap-
prehensive that his Royal Highness would have too,
great power and authority, they ought to remember
that Parliament had not left him alone in the exercise
of his new functions; trey had granted him a Corn-1
cil, with 'whom his Royal Highness would advise.
The Privy Purse was protected as the King's private
property by several Acts of Parliament. If it had
been thought expedient to grant the sum of £60,0001
for die Privy Parse, he saw no solid reason for its re-
duction. If Parliament chose, in its legislative capa-
city, to order that any surplus of the £60,000, after;
defraying the usual appropriations, should be invested
in the hands of Commissioners, to accumulate as his
Majesty's private property, that surely ought to be a
sufficient protection for it ; and any surplus could not
be diverted into another channel without a violation
of the Act of Parliament. In addition to the £60,000,
there was an equal good authority for the £lO,OOO
arising from the Duchy of Lancaster. Both funds,
supounting to £70,000, were then private property to
the King, assigned for his own uncontroulledidispo-
sal. If the Gentlemen on the other side assumed to
themselves the power of diverting part of the Privy
Purse to purposes foreign to she meaning of the Acts
of Parliament, then they might with equal authority
order a transfer of the money arising from the Duchy
of Lancaster to
,defray the salary intended for the
Custos. The Honourable Member, in elucidating the
subject of the Duchy of Lancaster, made references
is far back as to the time of Edward IV. when it
was distinguished as belonging to the Crown.—
He exposed the absurdity, besides injustice, of the
Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. They
admitted the power of Parliament to ligislate for the
protection of private property, but wpuld not allow
such a protection for his Majesty. It was hard, in-
deed, that the King should be the only man in his
dominions who could not maintain his rights, although
assigned to him for his sole use by various Acts of
Parliament. It would be a curious anomaly to find
it described-46 That whereas his Majesty's faithful
Commons, for the purpose of supporting the Royal
Dignity; had resolved to grant a certain sum during
his Majesty's life, now think it necessary to reduce
the same." Goo forbid (exclaimed the Hon. Member)
that our beloved Sovereign, when.recovering from
his indisposition, should discover that a proposition
of the nature now before the House had been agi-
tated in Parliament—( hear, hear.) •
'Mr. BANKS supported the amendment. Although
he confessed himself against the spoliation of all pri-
vate property, yet he did not view the question
the same manner as his Noble Friend (Castlereagh
or the Hon. Member who had just sat down. Witb.,
regard to the appropriation of the Privy Purse, Ile,
saw no difference between the Medical Attendants
and the Custos. if it could be diverted in one in-
stance, why not in another? The last Hon. Member
thought that he had formed a very triumphant argu-
ment when he drew his distinction between the Me-
dical Atteitdants and the Custos.; and alleged, that
as the Queen had the allowance of £lO,OOO a year,
the Duke of York ought to have the same. lie be-
stowed many encomiums on her late Majesty ; but
saw no,reason why she had such a surn allowed to
her. With respect to the queition now before them,
ite declared himself to be of the Timepinion with
the Honourable Gentleman (Mi. y) who had

moved the amendment. At all events,• the sum pro-
posed was too much. But he hoped the vote of that
night would put the affair to rest. These were not
times for enlarging our expenditure. The pressure
of the times was too heavy on the people not to ren-
der economy necessary in, every department of the
State. He wished the Noble
Lord (Castlereagh)
would withdraw his motion. If he (Mr. Banks)
rightly recollected, the Nobletord was of a different
opinion about a week ago. .
Mr. WILMOT considered the present, not a ques-
tion of policy, but a question of common law. It
was not whether we should give the King this or
that sum, but whether we should grant to his Royal
Highness the Duke of York the same salary that was
granted to her Majesty when she officiated as Custos?
In every point of view, the Custos was a public offi-
cer, and therefore ought to be rewarded by the Pub-
lic. Notwithstanding the digresses of the times, he
'by no means considered the £lO,OOO as too much for
an Officer of such vast importance. If even the re-
muneration had been greater, he would have readily
given his consent to it. The Honourable Member
professed his independence ; stated that he belonged
to no party, but that he thought it his duty to give
his vote in favour of the measure. He was a strenu-

ous friend to economy; but while, on the one hand,
he was anxious for the relief of the country, he was
on the other equally anxious that there should be no
violation of the faith of Parliament. •

Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) cheerfully concurred
with tire Noble Lord who had made the original
Motion. The Honourable Member was clear that
. _ _

his Royal Highness should have " the solid and sub-
stantial sum of £lO,OOO a year." 'lt was by no means
too much. He would vote for it p and he was con-
vinced that fiis constituents would thank hint for the
part he took on the occasion. "It you take it from
the Privy Purse, you rob it ! and if you allow' any
other to take it from the Privy Purse, you allow him
also the power of robbing it !" The Honourable
Member insinuated, that although a General Elec-
tion might not be at a great distance, yet he was not
afraid to discharge his duty conscientiously, as there
was not one of his constituents but would approve of
his conduct. If the quetion were even fairly can-
vassed at the Hustings of Covent-Garden, the whole
body of the people would be for it !—(Loud laughter,
and hear, hear.)
Mr. PROTHEROF: was sorry to have heard the
communication which had been announced to the
House by the Noble Lord, " that the Duke of York
would not consent that the salary of custos should come
fiom the Privy Purse." It had been insinuated that
the Monarch had nd friends ; the Gentlemen who
had advised these measures, were far from being the
friends of the Monarch. He was for the Amendment,
as requisite'on principles of public economy.
Mr. HUSK ISSON had listened with much atten-

tion to what had fallen from an Honourable Member
opposite, (Mr. Banks;) and regretted that he differed
so very widely from the Honourable Gentleman. He
(Mr. Huskisson) couli not discharge his duty without
saying, that the principles on which the motion of his
Noble Friend were opposed appeared to him very
erroneous. The last Gentleman who had spoken had
ironically observed, that those who had advised the

present measures were not friendly to the Monarchy.
He and those with whom he had the honour"to act,

were as friendly to the Monarchy, and as zealous for
its true interest, as any class of men whatever. On
every principle of general feeling and general policy,
he was for the recognition of private property, and,
therefore, was not for disturbing the Privy Purse.
Every man who voted that nitiht would not vote ac-
cording to his convenience, but according to his con-
science. The office of Custos being one of great
public trust, the salary ought not to be defrayed by
the private property of his Majesty. The communi-
cation made that night by his Noble Friend, that his
Royal Highness would never consent to commit any
spoliation of his Father's private property was charac-
teristic of the Royal Duke, and highly honourable to
his feelings. The whole Civil List, with the exception
of the Prtvy Parse, was .appiopi hued by Parliament.
Such an exception clearly proved, that the Legisla-
ture deemed it not publicly tangible. It, thereiore,
ought not to be applied in the manner now proposed
by the Honourable Gentleman who had moved the
amendment. What did Parliament in 1812 ? By
an inquiry into the state and nature of the Privy
Purse, there was a general recognition that it was the
private property of his Majesty. Any savings or
surplus Parliament also deemed private property.
What Parliament had, therefore, always considered
as private property, ought not to be violated at `this
time. The Honourable Member fortified his argu-
ments by references to the various Acts ; and called
upon those whom he addressed, that they had a King,
and that they were his subjects ; and, therefore, they
ought not to allow any spoliation of his Majeey's
private property. To agree to the amendment,
would be a violation of the faith of Parliament. In-
stead of censuring his Noble Friend for the commu-
nication which he had that night made, he thought
that his candour deserved the greatest praise,
His Lordship did not wish to 'fight under a masked
battery'. He came forward in a fair and manly man-,
ner, avowing the principles of his proposition, and
the affirmation of his Royal Highness; uhich re✓
fleeted much honour on his feelings. Let any Gen-
tleman ask himself bow he would feel, if deprived of
his 'private property, as an individual? No man
could endure any spoliation of: his private pro-
perty—(Hear)--therefore ask what would be the
feelings of his Majesty, if it pleased PROVIDENCE WI
restore him to his health, when he found the attempts
made to commit aispoliation on his private property ;
that property which' Parliament had protected by
various laws ! The Duke was entitled to the same
sum that had been panted to the late Queen. It;
however, you do not chuse to remunerate the Duke
according to his great merits, let Parliament preserve
its honour reTpecting-the privy purse.
Mr. HUME spoke in favour of the amendment,
amidst repeated calls for the question.
Lord.COMPTON was a friend to economy, where
economy was legal and practicable. The legality of
-encroaching upon the privy purse, was, at least,
doubtful ; and the House, he was sure, would never
interfere with their good old Sovereign (whom ail ad.
Mired and loved), about a few thousand pounds.
Mr. MANSFIELD deemed eamozny indispensk-
4te from the pressure of the times, and should there-
we vote for the amendment.
Mr. WILSON, though Ito would never be

n
fluenced by popular elutn io, said the proposed
amendment should have his support.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said, he codb not
help expressing his indignation at keal ing that his
Royal Highness the Duke of York was willing to
take money from the pockets of an impoverished
people, instead of the privy purse.
Mr. DAVIS, with his mind perfectly open to con-
viction, was not satisfied of the legality of taking
money from the Privy Purse. In the event of the
Amendment being carried, he should feel it his duty
to propose that the income of Prince Leopold should
be taken into consideration; whose income (5000014
was as great as the whole of the King's Establish-
ment, and nearly three times as large as that of the
junior branches of the Royal Family. He asked,
whether any Member of the House, in assenting to
Prince Leopold's grant,, did not consider it as in-
tended' for the widower of their future Qu'een ? And
he wished to be informed why one Act of Parliament
was to be held more sacred than another?
Mr. S. WORTLEY opposed the Amendment. He
was as much interested in the public burdens as any
Member in that House—(lkar,)—but he must say,
that if he should consent, for the convenience of the
country, to appropriate a private sum to the pay-
ment of a public servant, he should believe himself
to be doing a great wrong.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL insisted, that if the
Amendment were adopted, it would be tantamount
to the Repeal of the various Acts of Parliament.—
The Hon. Member made a very able speech in sup.
port of the original Motion.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL contended, that
since the year 1782, in every account which had been
laid on their table, the House had recognized the
Privy Purse as the private property of the King.
Mr. SCARLETI contended, on the other hand,
that the Privy Purse was a public fund, and liable,
like all others, to the disposal of Parliament. They
were not now considering whether the Resolution by
which the Privy Purse was settled at £60,000 a-year
was a fitting Resolution or not, but whether the sub-
ject itself was proper to be brought before the House,
and made the subject of Parliamentary inquiry.--
whether it was a subject fit for Parliamentary in-
quiry? He followed the Solicitor-General through
the various Acts by which this fund was regulated,
and drew from them an inference the opposite of
that for which his Learned Friend had coraenned.
He observed, that if on the day when the first Bill
was passed any one had proved satisfactorily that the
estimate on which it %rent was too great, Parlia-
ment would not have done its duty towards the
Public had it refused to reduce the estimate.—
The i9th and 40th of the King were not intended any
more than this to exempt it from the controul of
Parliament—they left the Privy Purse still subject to
legislative interference. Then came the Act of the
51st, which contemplated possibility that the King's
indispositon might be only temporary. The wade
question was, whether the House had a right to apply
the fund or not—and the conJuct uniformly adopted
by Parliament pravcd that it had been al .;.y; so con-
sidered. If he thought it w;!s the private croperty of
the King he would be as little disposed to interfere
with it as any man, but regarded it only as a parti-
cular application of public money, he concurred in
the Amendment of his Right Honourable
The Committee then divided, when the numbers
were as follows :
For the original Motion
For the Amendment -
Majot ity‘

281
186
----95

The House thro resumed, the Cusattwast reported progress,
and obtained le.ve to sic again this day.
!dr. STURGES BOURNE gave notice, that he would to
move fQr leave to bring in the Poor Laws Amendment
Bill,—Adjourned at Hatr-Esst Ora o'Cwet. •

WESTMINSTER ELECTION.

EIGHTH DAY.

Shortly before the close of the Poi! yes!erday, the
booths and the whole of the ,pace surrounding the
hustings were, if possible, more thronged than ever.
Placards innumerable were exhibited in front of the
hustings, thongh few of them manifested any parti-
cular brilliancy of thought. For instance,
" Lamb's Patent Coalition, vi.t.—Spafields Huut, Dr. Slop,
Canning, Old 133 gs, Lot► of Wigs, Derrydowu Triangle, and the
Dnctor..!---" I aunt is a mad dog, and Jones is a tin kettle de4
to his tail," &c. &c. &c.

,
A few minutes before four o'clock, Mr. Horimitax
appeared on the hustings, accompanied by Sir FRAN
Cis BURDETT and several other Gentlemen. Almost
immediately after, Mr. LAME came up, accompanied
by Mr. LA NIBTON, Mr. M'llos A LD, and Mr. WISH ART,
and followed by HUNT, JosEs, and Co. From the
time of their appearance till the 'exhibition of the
Poll-board, the uproar was most intense, and it was
impossible to distinguish what particular sentiment
predominated. At length the State of the Gross Poll
appeared, and was as follows:
Mr. Lux - - - SOPS
. Mr. noissioust - - 17t.2
Major CAILTW RUM? - - 37.
Mr. Homfouse then came forward, amidst /mid
cheering and clapping of hands, mingled with some
few exptesSions of disapprobation. lie said, they
had this day gained a considerable victory over the
opponents of the people of Westminster. They were
SOS a-head on the day's poll, and should they have
a similar triumph to-morrow, of which he had no
doubt, the majority of the Coalition Candidate would
be nearly destroyed. He was happy to find that the
delusion Which it had unfoi tunately been in the power
of tho IThigs to create, had been by degrees disci.
pated. He was also happy to inform them that their
opponents no longer considered him as a Tory Caa.
didate, and he hal discovered that the person of
rank to whom he alluded on a former day, had not
calumniated him so far as to call him a Tory (Laugh.
ter).—But what he did not do, others had done, and
they had left no means untried to injure and defame
him ; indeed they had not stopped at any thing
which might serve their electioneering purposes.—
They now endeavoured to make the public believe
that he and his friends were levellers, but the Electors
of Westmiustei• were, by this tint', perfectly aware
that nothing which they uttered was to ass, but
moment—(Loud for the purpose of the use.)—:-
el
The Whigs themselves were once love err, and he
would tell them of what kind—they would pull down
all above them, to their own level, but they would
not reduce themselves to the level of those below
them—(Laughter.) They were a proud, overbearing
' aristocracy, and totally inimical to the rights +ma
liberties of the people:—(S.ec diaapprobction.) For

it the same ti
suld point oat
01 its shelving
ferereign, they
cornprorn
h and impo
ary and ti
and not hav<
• part of Niel
ha were lik
understood,
d every cm
, a reluctant
, discretion
• ated urg
'should be res
oven, in th
, <I upon I
he was cot
little object
Royal High
" h this wou
(self decline
had ~ilread:
loyal Fan
ir.s the flonsc
year, when
a-y
he subse,
ma v,
but they
"ng thernsel,
they u
rt that was Iv
igrity. Them
teter to preset
lid with wan
rising in
tat from the <
Rake of York,
sage • would
IMO, rather t
6 a discussion
Ee should not I
<cation, but In
t'ut in the er.d
.ptiety of
he could
&position whit
ire Crown sine
la severe a na
s ingratitude.
need for the
lithe Duchy c
NAN. a year
"Dahl appear
hiry Purse as
till increasing.
?arse of 60A01
'Dually ; and
all, he receii
1,0001. a year
150,0001. a r
r.e to the Pri
tie, as it ha
loyal Hight
lot much the
all. paying 1
instan
islet again cot
race, and will
tiamin an u:
ire was not
is proposed
174 its etpk
stry man in
itions as th
ial.ed for; an
te whole con
from bei
sated by the a
Hr. Put.
tie same time
Piel, and the
Pre way.
Hr. PEETI
to which he e
lloa. Gentler
bldre,s to the
attention was
tithe Right
tai4ed the saw
it had come
'wen the ail
if the nature
skink to t}
abich he con
5r as cone
snich it wen
rght of prop
r. 7 )I,?.mLer
4:7ar, hear,)
L`l'it) it was
Hblic princi
ba sordid ac
k ci*Kcnisi
wi
takessar y
tkra which I'
tereign, and
Pct.!, leavi
tlttstion ter
• confi
t'on which
• 1.4 priv
`le ryht
arguMet
*tat Was t
t:le various
t4ter.tood
" the Ac
err earliest
purse
t 4 :task/11m
ttri t::e Att
le the rue,
!1,41 a 4.0,1
*as there
)hum
Rs. and if
~°A.glit Dor
'd title w:
right b
won the