Star.
London, England, 1821-07-02 00:00:00

,
PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS

HOUSE. OF COMMONS, JUNE W.
The Acetone Acid and Draining Bill vras read a third time,

and passed.
The slop Exportation Bill was read a third time, and passed.
The Exchequer Bills' Public Works Bill went through a Com-
mittee.—Report on Monday.
The Isle of Man Trade Bill, the Stock Cancelling Bill, and
the Irish Silk Bounties Bill, were read a third time, and passed.
GRANT To THE DUKE OT RRNCE.—THE QUEEN
AND THR GoitoNATIoN.
TbeCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERmoved
that the Report of the Duke of Clarence's Annuity
Bill be now received.
Sir RONALD FERGUSON rose and said, he
would give his decided negative to that part of the
Bill which granted 'to the Royal Duke £lB,OOO ar-
rears. It was contrary to every principle of pro-
priety, as it affected Parliament, and of justice to-
wards the People, and he would oppose such a vote
to the last with determined hostility. He then said,
" while upon my legs, I wish to ask the Noble Lord
in the blue riband (Londonderry), as a day is fixed
for the Coronation, whether it is intended that her
Majesty shall be crowned or not?"
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—".I can only
inform the Hon. Member, that her Majesty has
claimed a right of being crowned, and has made
application to that effect. As to my own opinion, it
always was, that the Queen Consort has no such
right, and that it is not the privilege of her station,
but as a matter of favour, emanating from the regal
discretion of the Crown, and certainly, in that point
of view, the advice of Ministers would not be that
her Majesty should participate in the Ceremony."
Sir R. FERGUSON" I ask the Noble Lord
when that application of right was made?"
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" A few
days ago."
Sir It: FERGUSON" Can the Noble Lord in-
form me whether her Majesty's Counsel, or the
Legal Advisers of the Crown have been consulted on
the occasion ?"
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" I do not
apprehend that I sit here to answer every question
which any Hon. Member pleases to put to me."—
( Hear, hear, on the Ministerial Benches).
Mr. DENMAN—" I apprehend the Noble Lord
sits here as a Member of Parliament, though else-
where be may be a Privy Councillor, and, in my
opinion, he is bound to give an answer touching
matters of State, at least those affecting the regal
power like the present one. I can, however, inform
the Honourable Member who has put the question,
and the House, that to the application from her Ma-
jesty on Monday, the only answer received was, that
the Law Officers of the Crown, would be consulted ;
but I always regarded the omission of the Queen's
name in the Liturgy as the virtual declaration of Mi-
nisters, that her-Majesty was not to be crowned, and
I am surprised that the same persons who advised
that measure, should now feel it necessary to con-
sult any further on the subject—(Hear, hear)—in-
stead of having a decided opinion, on which they
sought to he prepared to act. The answer proves,
that there i • a degree of hesitation in coming to a de-
cision, and whether that hesitation arises from doubts
entertained by the Law Officers or Ministers them-
selves, it establishes in itself a claim on the part of
her Majesty to be heard before the Privy Council, by
the asserters of her legal rights. It is very strange,
that from Monday to Saturday no definite answer
has been returned. What can occasion this hesita-
tion now, if, when Ministers advised that she Queen's
name should be left out of the Liturgy, they were
convinced of the just grounds and propriety of taking
. a step which might have the effect of excluding her
from the Coronation ? This delay, however, I re-
peat, is a sufficient cause why there should be no de-
cision until her Majesty shall have been allowed an
opportunity of supporting her claim before that tri-
bunal before which she prays to be heard—a tribu-
nal which, however, she cannot approach with the
same confidence as she would have done had it not
prejudged her case on a former occasion"—(Hear).
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" I am sur-
prised that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
should assume that I had ever given any opinion as
to the claim of right, when I distinctly stated, that
I gave no opinion as to the legal claim ; I stated
aho, that as an application had been made advancing
a legal right, that claim should undergo a legal in-
vestigation; but I repeat, that I gave no opinion as
to the result ; what I did say was, that I understood
the privilege claimed to be a matter of discretion,
inherent in the Crown, and as a matter of regal dis-
cretion the Crown could not be advised that her Ma-
jesty should participate ; and now, allow me to say,
it appears very singular that the egal Advisers of
her Majesty should not have presented this claim
sooner; the point had been mooted in Parliament
two months ago, when I stated what I have just ex-
plained, as to the advice respecting the refusal of the
claim as a matter of discretion. Did her Majesty's
Legal Advisers then know how to act ? or why hare
they stood still and declined advancing this claim
until the very eve of the Coronation ?—(Hear, hear)
—at which moment they start a claim of right which
they never mentioned before? Was it because they
saw a disposition manifested on the other side of the
House to complain of the Coronation, and to treat
with disrespect everything belonging to it, that they
now set up this right for the first time?—(Flea.-.)—
e
If they knew of this legal right, why not urge it be-
fore? or was it only a pretext for bringing the Coro-
nation into hatred and contempt?"—(Hear, hear.)
• Mr. DENMAN—" So far am I from feeling any
reproach from what has fallen from the Noble Lord,
that it appears to me her Majesty's Legal Advisers
would have acted improperly had they brought the
. claim forward until, from all appearances, it was
quite certain that the Coronation was to take place;
I allow the delay has been considerable, but was not
the Coronation talked of last year, an yet did not
occur? Preparations were then making, which it
was doubtful whether they were to serve for the ho-
nour of the King or the degradation of his Royal
Wife—(Hear, hear). Such preparations, therefore,
gave no assurance that the Coronation was ever to
take place. The Noble Lord may differ from me,
but I feel that we were not bound to advise this step
until her Majesty was satisfied that the Coronation
would take place at no distant period; but I do con-
ceive that we have some right to complain of this
ticht) ou the part of the Noble Lord ai.d his col-

learn, in not having given a definite answer to her
Majesty:: application, as their minds ought to have
been made up before now, and -therecore the charge
of unnecessary delay was upon them, and not on her
Majesty's Legal Advisers. They should have been
able to have given an opinion at once, as to what
part her Majesty was to act, and it ought not to be
now a matter of deliberation whether she was to par-
ticipate or not in tlrat ceremony, according to the
right which she derived from the custom of the coun-
try, and which had been recognised by Act of Par-
liament. The ceremony is of itself a pageant, but
the ancient custom of the country-rnade it s.ilemn,
and granted to the Queen Consort a participation in
the rites belonging to the accession to the Throne ; I,
cannot therefore see why Ministers should not have
been prepared with a speedy and decisive answer as
soon as the claim was made, and I contend that the
delay itself is proof enough that her Majesty's Legal
Defenders ought to be heard before the. Council, pre-
vious to any decision now taking place, which might
have the effect of excluding her."
_ •

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" An an-
swer was given long ago to the claim as a matter of!
discretion. It was not then brought forward in a
legal shape,' but now a claim of right has been set
up, it must go through the ordinary course of legal
investigation—(Blear, hear). I cannot avoid ob-
serving, that while the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
insists so much upon facility in giving answers in i
the Ministers of the Crown, 1 see nothing of that faci-
lity in his own conduct, nor can I tell why his vigi-
lance has slept so long, as to allow an interval of,
many days between the official notification of the
Coronation, and the setting up of this claim of right.
Other applications had been of a different nature, and
there really does appear to me to be something al
mystery, if not intention, in delaying to bring for-
ward this claim before—(Hear, hear).
Mr. SCARLETT.—" The Noble Lord may be
very correct in not admitting that he ever gave any
opinion on the legal claim, but 1 do not think it quite
fair in him to speculate as to the circumstances which
may have occasioned that claim not to have been
presented before ; I need not remind the House that II
the law's delay is proverbial. And in this case I do'
not see why it should be taken in a sense injurious to
the Legal Gentlemen employed; when her Majesty
chooses to take any step of this nature, she gives di-1
rections to her Legal Advisers, and they are bound
to give their counsel and assistance, but I apprehend
they can originate no measure themselves. I under-;
stand some case has been laid before the Law Officers'
of the Crown, and I wish to ask whether the Queen,
has applied to be heard before the Council? I have
not attended much to the subject of the legal claim,
but I have heard it said that there were only two in-,
stances where the privilege was not enjoyed—Dos
MEMBER said, only one'3.—l am aware there is in
reality but one instance, and it is vulgar error to sup-
pose that the wife of Henry VII. was not crowned :
on account of the peculiar circumstances in which be
was placed, that King hastened his own Coronation
before the marriage, butf after the marriage, his
wife was crowned. In the case of Henrietta-Maria,
she was a Catholic ; and the original Proclamation,
indeed, stated that she was to be crowned. Before
the Coronation, however, a change took place, on
account of the difficulties relative to the religious ce-
remony, as it was dangerous for the responsible Ad-
visers of the Crown to advise that the ceremony should
be performed by Popish Prie.ts, who just at that time
were not in good odour. She was, however, present
at the ceremonies, though not crowned ; and that she
was not,, was occasioned by the Parliament, and not
by the will of the King—(Blear, hear).—lf this was
the only case, I consider it a matter of grave consi-
deration, how far it can bear on the present question,
and whether the Coronation of the King ought to take
place in such a way as to exclude the Queen Consort
from a participation in the ceremony, which she
claims as a matter of custom and of law"—tflear).
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—" I look{
upon this as too grave and important a question for
discussion in this incidental manner—(Hear, hear).
The subject is before the Privy Council, and I can-1
not give any explanation of the proceedings there,
without violating my duty as a Privy Councillor ;1
but I hope it will not be supposed, from anything,
which I have said, that I declare there is any inten-
tion'
that her Majesty shall not be crowned"—(Hear).
Mr. BERNAL then declared, that he would take
every opportunity of objecting to the Bill now before
the home; nor did he think it improper that an
Amendment should be moved to the bringing up this
Report, or see why it should not be done, on Satur-
day. He entered his solemn protest against granting
what was called the arrears, and would always give it
his temperate but firm and decided opposition. One
thing he just called to mind relative to this Bill, which
was, that the Honourable Baronet, Member for Carlisle
(Sir J. Graham), in alluding to the rejection of the
grant three years ago, lately stated in the House,
that his Royal Highness was at that time willing to
accept the grant of 1:6000, and that it was not on his
own decision that he refused it. He remembered the
Honourable Baronet said that he was prevailed upon,
or rather instigated (for he recollected the expression),
by some of his friends to refuse that grant. He (Mr.
Bernal) had beard no explanation given by the Noble
Lord on this subject, at which he could not help ex-
pressing his surprise ; no man in or out of the House
could look at this Bill, and temperately consider all
the circumstances relative to it, without objecting to
the grant. He could allow a great deal for personal
feelings and personal attachment, but he begged of
Gentlemen who entertained such predilections, to re-
collect that it was not very liberal in them to pay off
private debts of gratitude with the public money, or
to gratify their own feelings at the expense of the'
country and their constituents—(Hear).—He had no
objection that they should express their attachment,'
by an act of liberality on their own part, but not at.
the expense of others, by voting away the money out,
of the pockets of the people. As to the grant of
£6OOO itself, much stress was laid upon the
ness with which the House was ready to vote that
sum formerly, but the House might have been justi-
fied in making such a grant some years ago, and yet
the circumstances of the country might have so al-
tered since, as to make it- no longer proper for the
House to do so. He begged also to observe, that
neither the Noble Lord opposite, nor the Gentlemen
around him, were justified in claiming any monopoly
of attar,buier.t to the Royal Faimily--(licar, law).

He (Mr. Bernal) and his friends entertained for them,
as Englishmen, a constitutional reverence, and with
that feeling they wished to see them on a proper and
dignified throne in the hearts of their subjects
(Hear, hear).—NothinKcould so much tend to unseat
them in the hearts of- Englishmen, as the constant
discussions forced upon Parliament by
the injudicious
acts of the Noble Lord opposite and his friends, of 1
which the most improper and injudicious was this
grant of £lB,OOO as arrears, in the present distressed
state of the country. He really thought that there
was a source of Royal bounty, which ought to be I
open to the Duke of Clarence, if he was fettered with
debts, and it was much more becoming that the li-
berality of the Crown should supply his wants, than
that recourse should be had to this injudicious and
unconstitutional mode—(Hear, hear).
Mr. R. MARTIN defended the grant, on the ground
that the younger branches of thefamily of the late good'
old King should have sufficient means to support their
rank and dignity among the English Nobility.
Mr. WATSON TAYLOR stated, in reference to
what hid fallen from an Hon. Member (Mr. Bernal),
that his Royal Highness had not declined the grant
of £6OOO on account of the suggestion of Ministers,
or of any individual connected with office. Ile had,
in that instance, acted solely upon the advice and
suggestion of private and personal friends, who re-
presented to him that if he accepted £6OOO a-year,
and resided in England, after having stated a neces-
sity for £lO,OOO, it would appear as if he acknow-
ledged the lesser sum was sufficient, and had made
an over-demand on Parliament when he asked for
the greater vote, and they thought it better that he
should decline the grant altogether and reside upon
the Continent, as it was easier for him to do so, with-
out that sum, than, with it, to keep up his establish-
ment in England. He followed their advice, but
soon after returned, on account of public and domes-
tic circumstances, which were too well known to re-
quire any further explanatitsn. These facts he men-
tioned for the satisfaction of :he Honourable Member,
ithout expressing any opinion on the merits of the
question—(Hear, hear).
The Marquis o LONDONDERRY said, the Duke
of Clarence bad been led to believe that if he took,
the smaller sum, and continued to reside in England,
he would certainly involve himself in debt, since
otherwise it would be impossible for him to keep up
the dignity of his situation. He had, therefore, gone
abroad ; but circumstances had occurred which
tended to embarrass him as much perhaps as if he
had remained in this country. The arrears were now
only called for in order to place him in the same si-
tuation in which he would have been if he had ori-
ginally accepted of the grant, and continued in this
country all along.
Mr. BERNAL—The Noble Lord has given no ex-
planation with respect to what fell from the Hon.
Member for Carlisle on a former evening. The No-
ble Lord was present on that occasion.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not know
to what advice the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) al.'
laded on a former evening.
An Hon. MEMBER under the gallery declared that
this grant ought to be made as a matter of right and
justice to the Duke of Clarence.
Colonel DAVIES said he had given his vote for
the arrears, but he protested against the grant being
considered a claim of right. Though he was anxious!
to place the Duke of Clarence in as good a situation
as he would have been in if he had accepted the
bounty of Parliament originally, he would not allow
that he had any " right" to make a claim on Par-
liament. He thought it rather hard on his Royal
Highness that any hasty resolve of his—(Hear, hear)
—should be severely visited on him—(Neer, hear)......
But, so far from the grant being a matter of right,
be viewed it as a matter of special favour—(Hear,
hear).—He wished to rescue the Royal Family hems
being placed in the disgraceful situation of being
overwhelmed with debt, and therefore he toted the
money. His Royal Highness might say—" I gave
up the grant before, because I thought I could do
without it; but I was mistaken, and I now ask you
for the money as a matter of favoar, to enable me
to pay debts which I have incurred in consequence."
He wished to uphold the credit and character of the
Royal Family, and that consideration had influenced
his vote. With respect to the Coronation, he would
not give one shilling towards it beyond what had al-
ready been voted.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the Duke
of Clarence had not claimed the grant as a right.—
He had specially thanked the House for it as a mat-
ter of favour.
Mr. SCARLETT said this grant was made with=
out any Message or recommendation from the Crown.
Two Sessions ago, and in the last reign, when an
application was made for grants of this kind, the
1-louse received a Royal communication.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the llon.
Gentleman Was not in his place when the communi-
cation from the Duke of Clarence was made to the
House, which contained an intimation that the ap-
plication had the sanction of his Majesty. In 181-1,
the sum of £50,000 had been granted to her Ma-
jesty, an intimation having been given that the Crown
sanctioned the proceeding.
Mr. SCARLETT—" -Was there no Message from
the Crown in 1814. ?"
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" There was
no Message from the Crown ; but it was intimated
that the Royal sanction would be given. in the pro-
per stage of the Bill."
Mr. DENMAN said the Noble Lord's application
of this solitary precedent went to the extent of ren-
dering a Message unnecessary in any case whatever.
His Learned Friend had expressed precisely the same
doubt which he felt, and which ought to be removed.
—He now took this opportunity of saying, in any
debates which affected her Majesty, the part he took
Was altogether as a Member of Parliament, for in
the situation in which *he stood to that Illustrious
Person, he knew nothing could be more liable to her
disapprobation, than that her Legal Advisers should
make themselves par ties to any discussion particu-
larly affecting her Majesty.—(Hear). lle would new
state distinctly what was in progress as to the impor-
tant subject of her claims, as this was not a nego-
elation, and therefore did nut require. secrecy—
(Hear, hear).—He understood her Majesty had pre-
seined a Memorial to the King in Council on Mon-
day, not praying to be heard, because she expressed
no doubt on the right, but praying to be cross tied !

Lord flood saw Lord Sidmouth relative to it, and
an answer was promised to be returned on Thum
day, but no answer Viai given further than whet hi
had stated, and in consequence a Memorial was that
morning presented from her 141aject), f*TRY.I to he
heard by her Counsel before the privy Council. la
this state of the case he wished to abstain from any
discussion on the subject, but he could not help say,
ing that it was not respectful or courteous to the
Queen, to allow her Majesty's application to remain
so long without an answer, and that two letter;
will:II-had been addressed relative to the former sp.
.„e (R 4
plications were not attended to—VI v.—.se
not complain of the Law Officers of the Crown 03
account of the delay, but he complained of ;Minis.
ters not being able to give an opinion, as he bed a
right to assume that they ought to have bees pre.
pared with an answer, atter the opinion expressed
by the Noble Marquis on the subject two months
before—(llear, hear).
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY found it ne.
cessary again to repeat that that opinion related to
the question as a matter of discretion; but, whes a
grave application was made by a legal claim,
ought to undergo grave and legal deliberation,
A The lteport was then received, and the Bill GI,
dered to be read a third time on Monday.

APPROPRIATION BILL.
On the House going into a Committee on the Ap-
propriation Bill,
Colonel DAVIES • rose to ask the expenses of the
Coronation. Last year £lOO,OOO had been men, but
arrangements and preparations were now going os
to such an extent, that he believed the sum would
not cover one-filth of the expense. As he had acted
so liberally towards the Duke of Clarence, it could
not be suspected that he was ill di posed towaids tin
Royal Family. But he looked on the Coronations'
an idle pageant, for the vain display of which L:100,003
ought not to be drained from this exhausted country.
He understood that the Royal robes alone can
£30,000, and the hire cf an extra Crown 1;9000...
And what did all this tend to ? Surely it could not
make his Majesty more a King than he was at pm.
sent. This gaudy ceremony could not impose an
obligations on his Majesty towards his people, that
he did not virtually acknowledge at his accesnanann
could any oath make these obligations more binding
than his Majesty felt them already to be. In the di-
ordered state of the finances, it was absurd, as well
as improper, to s:ittansier the public money on ma
useless pomp. Besides, in the present distressed state
of the people, should it be deemed expedient to reject
her Majesty's claims, that occasion of rejoicing might
become a subject of regret. He now asked the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite. what the expenses were?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEItstitt
that as there was no vote for those expenses in the
present Bill, he was not bound to answer the quota'
of the gallant Officer; but as it was usual in a sits.
tion of this kind to introduce general topics, he waif
not object to give an explanation. The gallant Ofie
cer would recollect, that when the £lOO,OOO trs
asked for last Session towards this purpose, it suss
the same time explained tlutt Parliament was Me
depend upon the accuracy of the sum called for,
possibly some 3delitional expenses might be intend
which could not be previously estimated. They call
not be ascertained before the next Session, and des
sortie additional expenses were to be provided for, id
not considerable ; the arrangements were made ors
small a scale of expense as possible, consistatll
with the solemn and august nature of the ceremony,
but what the additional expense might be, he didna
profess himself able at present to ascertain.
Sir M. CHOLMELEY was convinced, if a*
luntary contribution had been proposed to defray*
expenses of this ceremony, a sum more than su
cient would have been raised.
Mr. SCARLETT could suggest a better methd
of raising a sufficient sum. lite price at preset
demanded for places to see this splendid proceside
was six guineas each. It was calculated 150,011
persons would engage seats ; if the proprietors d
those places, who alone would be gaining on this cc•
casion, would subscribe one guinea Ix each place,*
sufficient sum would be rai,ed to defray the expels.%
The House having resumed, the Report was brouglx
up, and ordered to be received on Monday.
On the Oder of the Day for bringine up the Report of tat
Metropolis Police Bill,
Mr. BERNAL wished to call the attention of the Houtets
the necessity of increasing die Salaries of Police Officers,
He wished that there should be provisions given also to persai
who bad served a certain number of years, or who had bed
wounded in the discharge of their duty. Though there watt
(nod provided for extra charges, he thought it right that de
salaries should be more liberaL He objected to the elan
whereby Police Officers were allowed to arrest persons wanks
ing about the streets without employment. as the effect of de
Pour Relief Bill would be, if passed, to reduce numbers dr
sons to that forlorn condition, in which, on the deprivatiald
work, they could apply to no parish for relief, and such ponds
ought to be protected from the operation of the present BBL
Mr. 11. CLIVE stated, that there was a fund for supplyil
rewards, P.c. to Police Officers, and their claims were and*
to with liberality.
Mr. SCARLETT complained of the practice in which tote
Gentlemen indulged of making irregular attacks upon timid,'
ciple of his Bill, and which were not consistent with fact. Or
trusted he would yet have a fair opportunity of proving tat*
lacy of their charges.
The Report was then received, and the Bill was onlauld
be read a third time on Monday.
The Captured Slaves Bill was reported, and ordered tole
read a third time on Monday.
On the Order of the Day for the further consideration olds
Report on the Audit of Accounts Bill,
Mr. M BER LEY proposed a clause for laying on the tfOr
annually, an Account of the actual Yearly Surplus a Beficicrl
in the Revenge compared with the Expenditure. ob
The CIIA NCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER ad not
feet to the clause.
Mr. DEN MA N objected to the clause giving to Comnissl
of Account. abroad the power of imposing an cath._,,ana
punishing for perjury persons examined before theta;
het
it a matter of serious consideration whether persons wr,
punished for perjury in matters of Account at AL rs`r"
cadent was new, he thought it a dangerous one, and an/ ri
be productive of mischievous comequenees.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER add dot
certain Officers bad formerly the authority which was
given to the Commissaries of Accounts; but it tau
17
in matters of Account, and as such Commissaries were nut do'
hishest rank, they were not empowered to call persons to try'
amine.' on their own authority, but must have the conun
the Governor or euniniander.in.chief of the place for sumo"
ing them, and could only examine in the presence of sew
sons appointed by the Governor or Commander-in-Chief.--
Bill was then ordered to be read a third time on AlouJaY•
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave 0,;
that on Monday next he would propose an Milliliter deign"'
remuneration to the Officers of both Houses of Pollutes&
Mr. SPRING RICE moved for an Account of
Alles:ances. Fees. &c. to certain Mar. in Coma is ircia7
`fur tie last seven yeas s.—O•tlacv;,— five Lbrase tldn naPurgr