Star.
London, England, 1819-07-02 00:00:00

17. e that place, the elective franchise removed from
boroughs whose corruptions had been exposed, and
from others of limited extent, to large and popnloust
towns. He regirded the abuse of thai franchise ,in
the same light in which he should view .the abuse of
any other constitutional (Unction. The House would
not do its duty, if it left power in the. hands of those
who.e delinquency had been proved. Thus far would
be g) in the improvement of the borough representa-
tion: but the thorteuing of the dtiratioa of Parlia-
ment appeared to him to be a measure that would
have a saint:eta effect in identifying the ieelings of
the constituent and the representative ; it would serve
es raise the House in the public estimation, and to
Fit an end to that difference which had been so often
'surveil in their conduct at the beginning and at the
close of a Parliament. The frequent recurrence of
elections, which was much dreaded by many persons
in that House, he thought would be highly beneficial.
He considered the noise and tumult of 4 popular elec-
tion an excellent ordeal for a candidate to go through
laugh from the ministerial side). He knew the
r eaning of the laugh from the gentlemen opposite,
bet (till he must declare his preference of triennial
Parliaments and mud-bespattered condidates, as a
fl'.ght Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had on
&Ammer occasion described him. The Right Ho-
wl:ride Gentleman, perhaps, might not be ignorant
of inch a thing existing ; and if it were recurring fry.
isuently, it would not be improper that a Member
lould have such a memento of the resentment of his,
constituents. ire did Sot consider reform to be that
grand panacea-which the Honourable Baronet seemed
to think it. Lk knew the people had been taught to
heliesp that reform comprised all that was worth
raining ; that it would make, provisions cheap, and
reduce the expense of law proceedings ; in short, that
is would enable us, as Fonescue said, " to wear
woollen clothes, and drink no wo.ter".4:-(A laugh). 111
certainly did not anticipate such entisocmences from
ti:tli.rentary reform ; but at the santetinie he be-
it would have the good effect or gating the
!maple *hat in his opinion (and he was sorry to sax
st) they did not at present possess--reliance on their
rulers. He had addressed the House in this early
stage of the debate, because there was much in the
Honourable Baronet's speech that he approved of,
and because he thought the best way of attaining the
object in view was to unite the friends of reform. He
knew he had prescribed to himself a difficult task,
which, nevertheless, he hoped he had executed in
an intelligible manners—namely, to draw between
lumself and radical reformers a wider distinction than
abaci between any oilier two classes of politicians.
Whatever reception the pre;ent proposition might
meet with, he must consider that House the true re-
presentative of the people, and the third branch of
the Legislature; and he sheUld be sorry if, in the
harry and heat of debate, he had uttered any remark
derogatory from the respect which he should ever,
entertain for that House.
Mr. GRENFELL said he did not often wish to
trouble the House with any of his sentiments, and
that he did not now mean to follow the Honourable
Baronet through his whole speech ; trot as the subject
was one which, especially of late years. had.become
of much importance, and as he had often voted upon it
and hitherto had always given a silent vote upon it,
be hoped he would be excused for declaring his dpi.
nionupon it. The subject had already been repeatedly
so amply and ably discussed in the House and in va.
aloes publications, that he did not expect to be able
iv say any thing new upon it, or to put the argon
meets in a better light than they had hitherto beena
hut the Honourable Gentleman observed that he was
one of those who saw in the practical effects of earl
present system of representation much radical good.
He must also say that he had no faith in the wisdom
of many of those who called themselves advocates
for Parliamentary Reform: In this censure he did
not by any means wish to include all Oa advocates.'
of Reform. Without going out of his way to impute i
improper motives (though be did in his conscience
believe that improper motives might be truly im-
puted to them), he could not help saying, that if all
that they wished was done, it would only give then) 1
an opportunity of trying their hands on experiments
which oaght never to be made, and which would put.
to hazard all that was valuable in the Constitution—
(Hear, hear.) It was not an opinion hastily adopted
which he expressed when he said that our present re-
presentation was such as gave a greater practical de-
gree of liberty and security both as to person and
property than had ever been attained in any country-
m the same state of society. But having said this,'
he mast be allowed to express some doubt whether in
practice any great change in our system would pro-
duce good. At the same time he must admit our
system had some blemishes. Time, which had raised
it up, had also brought with it some abuses—(hear.)
Bat the only sort of proposition for Reform to
which he could listen, was one which should clearly*
point out the defect or blemish to be corrected, and
plainly spew the remedy intended—(Hear, hear.)
—To any such proposition he would be among the
most foremost to propose a serious consideration. He
had long thought that the influence of the Crown•
throughout the country, and especially in this House,
was too great, and that it would be an essential ad-
vantage if it were diminished. The House must re-
collect the Resolutions passed in 1780 on the motion
of Mr. Dunning, afterwards. Lord Ashburton, which
set forth that the influence of the Crown had increis-,
eel, was increasing, and ought to be diminished. He
hngged the House to recoiled what had taken place
since the period when these Resolutions were,
Argreed to. The National Debt had increased from,
'L120,000,000 to £800,000,000. With this increase
there had been a corresponding increase of taxation,
and of all the machinery necessary to enforce it. All
this gave a corresponding increase to the patronage
and influence of the Crown. Therefore if in 1780 the
House had thought it necessary to pass the Resells.-
!;an which he had mentioned, how much stronger
"ns the occasion for diminishing the influence of the,
Crown now? But the radical Reforenementst. much
' farther than this ; and there was this Temarkgble in
all their plans, that no three of them were ;greed.
ipon a plan olgeneral Reform. eAll.dreir plans tog
'sere unintelligible. Entertaining these opinions, he
could not but heartily dissentirom the present Mo.
:ton, and he could not do it in ibetter way than
moving--,‘ That the whet-Orders of thellay
now read."—(Heer, hear.)
Mr. GURNEY (of .Norwich) spoke against .
practice of extending the Elective Trawl:tube of

it, one being too Grecian, another . Gothic-one
too ancient, another too Modern. In short, it was
impossible to please such men. They were like the
soldier, who, when he was flogged. complained that
the drummer struck too high,aben'iltat he struck'
; low--and, lastly. that he seta/ in the middle.
)ha the 'whole, he thought ,this ae *Ass, in justice
to a coitiplaining country. oosakitt not-refuse to ace*.
to this pro7:10al, which at least beld.out the hope oll'H
Reform. se persons who possessed the elective
franchise, and who were but as zeros on the political
scale, would be at all events gratified by the pro.'
posed inquiry, si miseris edam spem injeceris consolerel
petest ;—rand he could not sit dawn without observing
that the best support of Government Would be a free
and equal Administration, as well as the undoubted
interest of the community.
Mr. WILMOTT conceived that the Honourable
aronet had other motives in introducing the motion
than hSA been stated, at least it appeared to him
that it was co-existent with 'meetings that were held,
which he considered of a seditious tendency. It wfs
upon occasions such as this' that the people were
taught to believe that their distresses arose front a
tyrannical administriation, and from what the Ho-
neurable Baronet had been pleased to style the cor-
rupt majorities of that House. He would ask the
House when they considered the numerous subjects
with which the Honourable Baronet had studded his
speech, whether it was possiblethat triennial Parlia-
ments and household suffrage Would remove those
grievances, and particularly the delays in Courts of
Justice? The Honourable Baronet had referred to
those parts of our history, with the view of shewing,
that the condition of the lower classes was better
than at the present, at times when the poor were
,ted little better than beasts, and transferred from
'one master to another. Could the'Honourable Mem-
ber bring one instance to prove, that at any period
*greater portion of liberty had been enjoyed than at
the present ? Does he remember the language used
towards the populace in theiiign of Richard 11.
'after the death of Wat Tylel;•l:Pilkai /sista, eat-
kiwi manebitis, non at haagenesi.'sed alai* viliorest
lie understood, that if the mOilkfh 'of the Honourable
Toilet should be agreed :to, [4iat all the promise.
*advantages would be obtained ; but as he did not
believe such would be Me effe4, he could not coa-
tto subscribe-to the declaration. A great part of,
the difficulties he.haped would, be removed early in.:
the next Session, by a reformation of.thiroor Laws;
' be thought .too, much good might.be effected by an,
/encouragement to emigration, not .by sending osd
armed .men-to South Amarica,.but hy establishing
colonies, which would at the-same time improve ,the
.commerce .of the country. .1n any .tational method
to relieve the sufferings ll:hepatic, nose would be
more ready to co-operate than himself. if he ca ll&
me stapreasouable plaii. to accomplish :Parliamentary
Reformation,.-he.ohnulditish tirgiveit attentiosu hue
`wrung the last twenty gears '.helsadmot met with
ly Abet could he adopted 'by a seasmable man.
r—Johnson :had saisi-J, .Thus the.hand that rod&
-sake a lainebnaight.destroy.a palace." !For ,the

•
,rapt-Boraaghs tots! adjacent Hundreds • and lepre7 !cause he did not think EarliaMearATY R4bOP
tented this system as productive of the worst copse-.!panacea for
.the .dif;culties tif 41e country.
`quences. He thought it would be much better, in' • Mr..AlOman WOOD ccaptoraclidthat the even,
every point of view, to adopt the plan suggested by rsien of the elective franchise weeld Wei beipeensii-
the gallant General (Sir Robert Wilson), of disfran- tent with a due regard to ;be rlbes orffie otiginit
chising those Boroughs altogether, and transferring electors, as had been erroneously maintained ih thel
the elective franchise to some of those large and po- case of the Borough of Barnstaple. He concurred in
pulous towns which at present were unrepresented. 'the motion before the House, and said that his Cifm-
If the House would pass a law to this effect, he was stituents, who certainly lived in the most enlightened'
convinced it would tend to silence all the discontent part of the island, were friends of moderate Reform.
and clamour which had been raised against the pre- Mr. WILLIAMS, in supporting the motion, de-i
sent system. dared himself favourable to a moderate Reform.!
Sir R. WILSONsaid his only objection to the mo- Had the rotten boroughs been abolished, the County
tion of the Honourable Baronet was the time at which Members would have constituted a majority against
it was brought forward. At so late a period. of the Ministers, and the country would not have been bur-,
Session many persons were aLsent, not expecting that dened with many unnecessary expenses, and we would
so important a measure would be now brought for- have escaped all the evils of a corrupt system of Re-
ward. The Honourable Baronet had stated his rea presentation.
son for his delay. He had allowed those whom he Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN was of opinion Re-
must call the economists to try their strength. But form was become inevitable. He fully agreed in
the Honourable Baronet was certainly right in saying opinion that the influer.ce of the Crown had decreased.
that they had been defeated. The campaign was He declared himself independent of political or'per-'
ended without any success. They had been beaten sonal prejudices ; wherever he saw a measure which
on every point—the Lords of the Admiralty—the had the good of the people for its basis, let it come'
War Office—the Colonial Department—they had from what quarter it would, it should have his sup-
,been repulsed from them all without gaining the least port. Oa the present occasion he had no fault to
advantage. They had not been able even to wrest find either with the motion of the Hon. Baronet or
a single snuff-box from the Noble Lord. As to the with the time at which it was brought forward. After
necessity of Reform, he observed, that when out of the spirit which bad been displayed at the late Gene-
the 650 Members of the House, the numbers retur- ral Election, when all the professors of wild and'
ned by the Crown and the Nobility were deducted, 'chimerical chemes were rejected, and only Gentle.
the total number that could be considered as really men of moderate principles chosen, he had tioped:i
Representatives of the people was only 171. On that at an early period of the Session this question
the whole, therefore, he thought the Honourable would have been brought forward. The Honourable.
Baronet had shewn the necessity of some Reform, Baronet had waited patiently; the people had waited
and that this was a seasonable time for undertaking patiently ; but the Session had expired-, and nothing
it. He should not anticipate the objections which had been done. Even in the cases in which gross
might be made to the proposal of the Hon. BarOnet, bribery' and corruption had been found too glaring
when its details came to be considered. But there to be concealed, and inquiry had been found .nevit-
were two objections which he would now notice.— able, how had the House set about that inquiry ?
One of these was, that ours was a mixed Constitution, Why, with a degree of delicacy and tenderness un-
of King, Lords, and Commons, and not a Common- equalled on any other subject. Reform had becomi,
wealth. But he contended that this was as much as the general wish of the people—moderate and yea-
st° say, that the Constitution, as settled by our antes- senable Reform—not that wild plan which had been
tbsk was not that which we ought to adopt. Another imputed to them. He had canvassed many thousands'
objection, was, that the present House of Commons of the people, and was well convinced he should never
was, upon &b whole, a good representation of the have had the honour of being elected one of their Re-
people. But be. must say, that those Members put presentatives, had it not been known'his sentiments
into the House by Patrons must have distinct views were favourable to moderate Reform. Had he been
and interests from toe of the genuine representa- 'one of those wild theorists, he was convinced he
tives of the people. Toh this cause the people ascribed should not have had ten votes. The Hon. Member
the greatest of all evils--file i,rresponsibiliti of Minis- then entered into a review of the present state of thej
ters. Another sort of Reforzno4s, were those who re; Representation, and the system of right of voting.'
sisted every .proposal for Reform tliaaPse" a' distinct In London, only %be Livery could vote; the Free.
plan was brought forward. An Histioitilble Member holders and the House-holders were excluded. In
(Mr. Grenfell) was of this class. 'Btirrhas nononra. Lancaster and Liverpool, not one•third of the inha-
ble Member had never supported any of t• 4. bitants were voters ; and of these more than one is
plans which had been brought forward even to this three were non-residents. In these cases only the,
Session. This class of Petitioners were like a trttstee, t jongest purse could prevail It would be said_
who being bound to keep an edifice in repair, refused ‘g Would you extend the tug:rage, and let in the
to do so, on the complaints of the heir, unless a plan rahl;16:11,1 No, he would not ; 'he would exclude the'
was proposed ; and yet when a plan was proposed— rabble, who, as appeared by the evidence before the
though by Nash, or Smirke, Wyatt:--though of House, weik
to be found in Camelford, in Barnstaple,
the most unexceptionable kind, wouldalwaysoppose In Fenryn,_ and. in Grampound.. He would exclude
- - too #s4Tughs,

these Cornish _ and change the system in
that part of the country where the independent
county Members were out-voted .in the House by
those who nth: rotten 'Viciroimbs, *O4 vrioorisaszing.
bought their seats, considared whey had aright to sell,
their roue.' He would .havil rose Gentlemen un-
seated; and i( they came again into the House, he
would have them come in as the Representatives of
Sheffield, of Manchester, of Leeds, an:( other popu-
lous places. They would then sit as independent
men.; as individuals they were equally honourable
:men now as they would be then ; but they woti'id,
as Members of Parliament, be more independent;
they would no longer be representatiyes of their own
interests and property, but of thd property and in-
terests of their Constituents. It had been said, if Re-.
form was adopted, the Constitution could not stand.
Why, then, if such was really the case—if Reform
aod Purity in Parliament and the Constitution
Wald not stand together, the Constitution was not
worth preserving ; and he should say, let it fall. The
Honourable Alderman concluded .a speech, which
was loudly cheered by all parts. of the House, by
giving his support to the motion.
Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) did not feel hithself
tether inclined to enter fully into the disciission. .
thought it, however, incumbent upon him to offer
a fete observations on the subject. The Motion of the
IHonourable Baronet, he conceived, did not imniedi-
ately enter upon Reform. It was only notice of a
Motion to that effects-(Laughter.)—They had been
told that evening by an Honourable Meinber, that
call his Constituents, consisting of many thousands—
if he recollected rightly, twenty thousand—were
unanimous in the cause of Reform. He trusted that
the Honourable Member would do him (Mr. Martin)
the favour to introduce him to his constituents—to
the twenty thousand—and he (Mr. Martin) had no
doubt but by fair argument he would convince them,
that he (Mi. Martin) was right, and that the Honour-'
able Member's constituents,—the twenty thousand—
talrwrong—(Losed laughter). He recommend-
hat Genflemen, during the recess, would attend
alteepnblic meetings of their various districts, and
argue with the people the question of Parliamentary
teferen. It would redound much to their benefit and
honour. The Representatives would endear them-
selves to the People by such condescension and such,
anodes of persuasion. Ile,thanked the Hon. Baronet
'Pr Francis Burdett) for once gaining him a hearing
et a Meeting in Palace Yard. The Hon. Member
,jok.d
. ged himself, that if the Worthy Alderman would-
ido him a libe favour with his numerous constituents,-
namelY, to obtain a hearing, that he would convince
the People they-were in erxor. He would thus de-
Imamate to the Worthy Alderman, that by adopting
in future his plan, he would be returned on the shour-
tiers of the People !-(Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. HUMS said, in voting-for moderate Reform,
he was confident he spoke the sentiments of his Con-
otituents. *41%6 measure was likely to be followed
,by something Ae,cisive in the nett Session, he would
support it.
. Mr. PRICE was for reform, lint would not go the
length of this elan, which -was-in. itself so visionary.)
I.Thh Mr. Pitt himself advocated; but the plan he
pit ¶to-buy qp some .of the boroughs
_ and
e nunther AA country members. Perhaps
well to give to the forty-shilling freehol-
double vote.
egTER 6100FtE .eaid he lad always voted
Reform, rood he lisiold Paw to xia the same

Ado. It was an act necessary for the preservation of
the very Constitution and the tranquillity cf the bh.
tion, and under tbtst feeling he felt obliged to the
Honourable Baronet for bringing it forward.- This .
opinion was supported by high authorities, many of
whom were dead, but 40121 C of them were living.
He was not a little surprized at the vote which the
Honourable Member (Mr. Grenfell) had given, after
tlielitie of argument he had adopted, which would
seem to go the other way. As things now stood, the
Ministers,. so far from being under the controul cf
the Constitution, controuled it. Every step was now
taking to "crush public opinion,. and the late war
against Revolutionary France, had for its object to
put a stop to this question. He then concluded, from
the fate of the Foreign Enlistment Bell in the House,
by conjuring them to be cautious of their liberties,
and to guard against the example of Spain under
Charles V. who destroyed the liberties of Spain by
filling her Senate with his officers.
Mr. TENNYSON wished that the rights of which
Boroughs convicted of corruption were to be de-
prived, should be extended to large towns. He did
not approve of extending them to the adjoining hun-
dreds of these boroughs, as that would be giving the
electors a double voice, as they before bad one in the

A ,

return of the county Members.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he should notbeun-
.
dersood as pledging himself to the plan of the Hon.
Baronet in the vote which he was to give in support
of Reform. lie would go with him the length of
saying, that ;he Boroughs, where notorious corrup-
tion had been proved, should be disfranchised. He
would also accede to any proposition for limiting the
duration of Parliaments to three years; but could act
consent to a general enquiry, which would seem to
throw a slur upon our Legislature, and be a signal
of alarm to the people of the country who were not
at all disposed for a change. It would also have the
effect of rendering nugatory any particular plan of
Reform. The `Honourable Baronet had said that
there was no danger from Universal Suffrage, for
he did not know where the suffrages were to be
found ; but he would only refer the Honourable Ba-

ronet to those persons, who, last year, sent him down
to this House with the proposition for Annual Parlia-
ments and Universal Suffrage*-(Hear ! Question !)
Mr. HUTCHINSON strongly supported the Mo-
tion. Abuses ought to be reformed. According to
the present state of the representation, the people
were not faitly dealt with. The Honourable 'Mem-
ber wished to see an unbought representation. He
had lived in other times—he had lived to see a Par-
liament bought and sold—he had lived to see Ireland
destroyed by corrupt majorities--he had lived to see
her liberties overthrown by her corrupt representa-
tives (Hear, hear.) He had lived long enough to
have seen that there was no fair representation of the
people. No man was more convinced than he was
of the blessings derivable from our excellent Consti-
tution, as formed of King, Lords, and Commons—
there was nothing like this admirable Constitution
under the sun; but then it must be repaired, suppor-
ted, and protected by a Parliamentary reform, which
would produce a reform of all abuse. He differed
widely from the Noble Lord who had just sat down.
Mr. BYNG did not object to' the question of Ile-
[
kecause it was proposed by the Honourable Ba-
ronet. He very mush lissentessind .craree which
the Ilonourable Baronet had unifprmly taken in at.
tempting the reform of abuses. 'He very much la-
mented the separation of the Honourable Baronet
from the Aristocracy and Gentlemen of the Country,
by whom only a Parlidnientary Reform could be
achieved !—(Hear, hear).
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT spoke for a short time
in reply. A Noble Lord, he said, had opposed his
motion for a very extraordinary reason—that of
his supposing that he (Sir Francis Burdett) wanted
to carry his plan of Reform to an extent of which
be-could not approve. The fact was, that he did
not propose any specific plan ; and he wished the
Noble Lord would point out the defects which he
supposed existed in the propositions he had offered.—
These 'propositions Went very short of what he had
offered last-year; and he was confident that they
were calculated to form the ground-work of a goqd
system of Reform. He declared himself hostile to
all modes of Reform that had no other object in view
except that of disfranchising and punishing the Elec-
tors of some particular Borough, because they had
suffered themselves to be bribed and corrupted.—
Whereas it was notorious to the whole world, that
most other Boroughs were equally corrupt with those
that were proposed to be so disfranchised; so that
nothing more was done than punishing some guilty
persons, and suffering others equally guilty to escape.
With what colour of justice could the House inflict
this punishment on a particular Borough, when it
was well known that the sitting Member for that
Borough had been guilty of bribery ! Whatever
might become of this motion, he would' say, that
that Reform was the best, which the greatest number
of honest Reformers would contribute to support ;
and without an effectual plan of Reform, the evils
that now oppressed this country would never be re-
moved. The question was now loudly called for,
ancl.the House divided—
Ayes, 58—Noes, 155—Majority, 95.
DISSZNiERS' MARRIAGE BILL.
On,the question that the Dissenters Marriage Bill
be .committed,
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that if it was only
intended to fill up the blanks, he would not object to
going into the Committee; but if the Bill was to he
pass?d to its completion, he should feel disposed to
follow a different course. The measure was of great
importance, and had been introduced at so late a pe-
riod, that he wished its further consideration should
be postponed to the next Session.
Mr. W. SMITH explained anew the naturevof his
Bill. He had not intended merely to fill up the
blanks in the Committee, but to forward the mea-
sure. He should, however, adopt the suggestion
the Noble Lord, and waive the Bill for the presen.,
with the view of renewing it next Session.
After a few remarks from Dr. PHILLIMORE and Sir
.J. MACKINTOSH, the Bill was ordered to be commit-
ted this day three weeks.
On. the motion of Kr. BROUGHAM, the Marc Aber" BiU
was read a third rime ; and after a few words from bir. Could-
barn, Mr. Barham, Mr. Wilberforce, and Mr. W. fornitla, was
ordered to the Lords.
kir. WILBERFORCE-moved for Copies tor Extracts of such
Accounts as bad been received from the West-India Colonies
since lee 7, shewing the Iserease and decrease of Slaves, and of
the free populatlon.—Ordered.
Adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock.

eat vor ruses Isoiwatigsa.unosamy
tO4 amens he had .assignedrheahunld protest.apinst. the
b t notion, and :conclude in:rhelanguage of W.For,--.
do- '44 That,thsy isad:higliar.dutias ,to perform than the
b 9! .acre wishes of theirConstitneata, they ,had to guard
110 the lams:ad:not' in, invade them.and 'to consider Abu.
tkerrights2af thepeopleivereillinited as welLarthose
the of tbadioseeraisn." ,He tfrit helms justified in Ivor
voting for the motionlatimedioawrabie &mast, he-,

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