Star.
London, England, 1817-05-15 00:00:00

£M?LOYMENT OP THE POOR SILL.

' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
on moving for a Committee on this Bill, observed,
that it might spire the time of the House, and of
every Gentleman, if they would allow the blanks to
be filled up, and to pass, pro forma, through its pre-
sent state, with a view to its farther consideration on
a future day, when the Alterations deemed necessary
to be made in it might come under discussion.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, as he understood from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer that considerable
alterations had been made in the Bill, he wished him,
to state, in a few words, what' were their nature, that
any objections which now operated might, if possi-
ble, be overturned. He would take this opportunity
of Mating what his own objections were to the mea-
sure, as far as he understood it. In the first place,
it put the power of distributing a sum of a million
and three quarters in the hands of persona connected
with Government, at a time when an imptimant event
was expected to occur—he meant the dissolution of
Parliament. Secondly, he objected to rite plan' oil
advancing Money to individuals on Government Se-
curitier, as he did not see how this project could re-
medy the general distress. He took the evil or cause
of this distress not to be the want of money, but the
want of work ; and also, that there should be a mul-
tiplication of funds, out of which that laboheiito hes
defrayed. It must be evident on a very'slight view•
that this measure would not throw any amount- of
,capital into the money market, to which the boxypweyl
resorts for supply. It would therefore only have the
effect of interposing the credit of the Government to
'facilitate a few small loans. But he still doubted
that the security exacted by Government would pre-
vent persons from resorting to the money market to
obtain-money. It Government no longer required.
the usual security, but was satisfied with personal se-
curity. there might be plenty of applications; but,
`still his objections amounted.to this, that it would not.
facilitate the procurement of money for the relief o 1
the general distrait. It was to be observed, that.
here there was no actual increase of money. Go-
vernment issued paper in the form of Exchequer bills,
and this was only a roundabout way of enabling pri-
vate individuals to borrow stioney of other private
individuals: In the preseWt state of great distress,
he considered the Measure wifelly inadequate to the
amount of that distress—so extremely disproportioned
co its relief, that this in itself was snificient very much4',
to damp one's expectations. •He did not, however,
wish to deprecate the project. He only threw out.
what he conceived to be palpable objections to it, and
sincerely u ished they might be overturned.
Mr. WESTERN said he was not in the House
when the Right Honourable Gentleman first brought
forward his plan, or he should certainly have given
the fullest consideration to die subject. But from
what he hid heard, he must own that he had not ob-
served any public advantage that would be likely to
accrue hum it. On the contrary, he could .adduce
many heavy objections against-it : the mischiefs that
*tight possibly arise out of it were, indeed, such as
the House ought not to overlook. It was calculated
to excite in the lower classes of people expectations
which must be miserably disappoiateda and it.might
appear to such people, that their opulent neigiabours
stood in their way, by being called on, and doeiinino.
to Aire the security required. This was a .paiefut
feeling for them, as the poor might suppomithat.ao-1
!thing was necessary but for them to give personal
; security, in order that they might obtain -relief. But
!could it be hoped or expected that such securities
would be offered ? It would not ; and what followed ?
The Poor Rates were to be mortgaged as securities,
and he anticipated float such a system the greatest
evils. The occupiers of land might charge and
mortgage .property, whish, in fact, was not their
own, and which they may be called on to. refund.
He thought the result would be to increase the evil
ut the Poor Rates. With respect to that part of the
Bill which enabled advances of money to be made for
the advancement of public works, he considered the
objections of his Honourable Friend to be unanswer-
able. It was the declining state of agriculture and
manufactures that put a stop to those works, and not
a want of capital. Under all the -circumstances, ;he
should feel it right to Object to the measure altoge-
ther ; but not having heard the Right Honourable
Gentleman's plan, he should withhold his opinion
till he was better acquainted With it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said he should nut taste up the time of the Houle by
,entering into any details, as he by no means wished
to provoke discussion in the present state of 'the mea-
sure. it was in advanie, not•of public money, but
of public credit, that was intended. No *doubt could
rbc entertained of its being properly appropriated, as
! he had endeavoured to make a selection ot most dis-
cerning. independent, and honourable ComMissiuners.
There would be clauses which would go to dispense
with personal security, in the cases'of indieidnals ap-
plying for advances, and to demand special security
of various kinds. ft was; in faci, a meature inten-
ded to supply 'temporary deficiency of 'inditidtial
credit, by the interposition of public crediri"Witl
respect to the said that might be given to parishes, he
wished at pteseirt to deter all discussion -on this part
of the subject. He 'would only say, that he should
endeavour to retails such *degree ot check as would
prevent the indiscriminate application of pail:l,es for
pubic aisf.; bus he had endeavourtd to provide suet.
a regUlitilin It tithe afford fetid in casei et (;teat
difficititYls Without'filiihtweinlederal retilic aid.

Mr. • ije: t question
muck narrowed from chat which the Hotiv

lundersiood as being the plan of the Rig'tt
ble Gentleman. It appeared +hat advane
be made to the ?roprietors of trrtaial
taliltsgs 4alk(had' it not. in' thtliepnwer
capitatauitileni,43sarry, t4rn e on. •
was not the case :with RIM)) great..nud„.l

they had been able to come into the (lien.
already, and obtain villas; they waste •
security was efficient.. The Right
tleman had said tharthii Olras atn jute:
lic credit to aid individual credit, an • r

lie .tindeitakings. Bailie had Away. n►►,
gna ihdeed it was evident, that tit. re %gal

qtiabtity r of capital at.ptesent in eanut
played' and stilt less was there aiiy w3.st.
Therefore this did nut appe is- to be • t
quired to be remedied, and !E.:4 w. it
for Government credit to be int,

carry nn public works. Tlius.br itmc.tred
in no way cAletilred to afford rclief. th
Honourable Gentleman had been Jtil• too.

amount proposed Mtn tha curret:cy o. ci:
medium of the country, it woald ptuJiice
feet; but as this was not tht.• cgs*, he cutite•
he saw no heneflei4l -effect: lik-sy to .res.ilt .t
He must, however, give him fr! !
nevolent ihuntions r, but h lid 'lever it 13 44 •.
the fir moment he hid f Aral% n. tnr pi n, .0 ,1!),; r.
s:and how ire lea.t benefit t-4 tad o* • vt•T m+ it
by the public at Laze.
Mr. ROA was sure it must bt. .11. vcc!, t!te. this
plan cglled for could du no evil, it it •,, stool
They most be a Irety strange set of Ci.c.

z .... 1:,

of they attended to any particular :ec,
of the Chancellor of *e tine,, c t • •
to advance money to one Gent. n:n p-. I nce
another. An Honourable Ge•iti,man is

't

that it world be the means of clf7trrin .
description of people to the Poor Rate- v...
liable already. it was not likely Were win,.
applications of this sort. It was iiot to be ek.
that Gentlemen generally would giee them pro • At
security for the payment ot this mon ci p-
rat's' be some who would, where parochial a 0..;,,
as toads mid buildings, were to be (is., fly
which the pm. mght be employed. Bt:t .13 114.1 •.4
.401.tbLalso that public warts ee auk/ be bei,efitel if.
!admitted that money was extremely pleitiikl, le:
some iiiirons who would lend it for two, or iny
(bur Month!, would not advance it, if there was on
prospect of its return for as many years. It a, prard
to be a great consideration to "nable such wak;
be carried on. At all events goo.' might be .!ri i%
horn the project, but no harm could possihly
Mr. BROUGHAM replied, that he zenbi&red is
an aukward thing, in a constitutional view, it, ditrirg
the tithe these Commissioners were sitting, thne was
to be a general election going or, while they hid the
• power to issue securities to the amount ot a an..l:uil
and three quarters of the public money.
Mr. LOCKH ART thought. there could he to harm
in issuing the money : the great danger wool,' beta
calling it in again. Yet he did not regard the Lill
to be entirely harmliss, as he conceived it ver,6ld
rally fail in leis operation t because it appeared
money would be issued to-large companies who ).ii
great works in hand, and that it would be applied,
generally, to no other purpose. If he nuclei sti.o.l him
righly, the Right Honourable Gentleman had parity
abandoned the idea df exacting personal securities,
This was the most vicious clause in the Bill, as it
might cause the ruin of the individuals, because if
they became at all embarrassed, Government would
come in with an extent, and sweep every thing they
possessed away. The advancing of stuns of money
to parishes, on the security of the rates, wuuld be
most mischievous, and render abortive all considera-
lions for the improvement of the Poor Laws. The
evil with those who could mortgage and pledge their
estates would fill, indeed, first on the rich, but after-
wards with heavier consequences, amounting to ab-
solute destruction, on the poor. In short, in all cases
where the calamity was not excessive, he thought :t
would be better for the people to work out, as wig".
be said, their own salvation, than to come to this ca•
traordinary remedy.

Mr. HURST saw difficulties in the Bill, but in as
Much sif it was calculated to extend some aid for fle
Itenflimike of public and private works, he wo.i!d
not like to see any check put on the proceeding. The
'BCII Might be so contrived as to do some berrt:t.'

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEVER,
in reply to the Honourable Member /,,r (Mord (Mi.
Lockhart), begged to say, that it was not by n.:y
me.sns intended to abandon the principle of FersenAl
security, which was, in fact, to be continued, wilt
only certain modifications. A posler wne'd, far I:-
stance, be granted to the Commissioner:: Ls accer,
certain cases, other modes ‘,l security.
The House then went into the Committee, whee

The CHANCELLOR of tl:e EXCHT.V.77:
mentioned the foßowing persons, as forming hi:
of Commissioners,

Mr. Caserd,
Mr. Reid (the Ch....rrrr,
of the East Ind'• C r.-
P3ny).
Mr. B. Harrison (tte ::-
putt' Chairmaa v !!.r
South Svs C0mp3.,1:
Mr. John "I'horntor.
/Or. Phelrs,
Mr. J. J. Anger:trio.
Mr. Joseph Titli.t
Mr. C. Laricf.,
Mr. Eosavio, t.

Lord Robert St moue,
Sir Thomas Ack.nd,
Mr. Williarn Lambe,
Sir C. Ed:ironstone.
Sir James Shaw,
Sir John Pecing,
Mr. Couch,
Mr. Edward Littleton,
Mr. Jain Luttrel,
Mr. Charles Grant, sea.
Mr. Corwen,
Mr. Estcourr,
Mr. John Smith,
Mr. Swann,
•
The Right Hon. Gentleman observed, t'ast awl
of these Gentlemen were not Members of thi4 Hou: .
and bad formed a part of the former Commission-

The further consideration of the measure Ir'',
postponed till Wednesday next.
- • IREZAND•
Sfr WILLIAM BURRO WES moved for n. Tittern of rec•
manly rOfCil and Volunteers in Ireland, wilt the nuett.:.f
Officers b those Corps.
• Lord PALMERhTON had no objection to the motion,
he wished to remind the House, that these werc perrons
received no pay.
Sir WILLIAM BURROWS replied, that when he fo:;ri
charge of .e 3 I ,ovo for their remuneration, it was but t'
know whet was the amount of tut m.— the mut was agrrta

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