The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-04-23 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Mr. 1) VIICOMBE resumed the debate in a speech essentially
heavy and pointless. He intimated his intention to vote with
ministers.

Sir CHARLES STYLE followed in a heavy lumbering ha-
rangue ; and was succeeded by Sir GEORGE SINCLAIR in a
speech of exceeding liveliness—a speech clever, and effective
withal.

Mr. INGHAM, who styles himself a conservative, delivered
a sneaking speech in favour of Lord John Russell's motion.
Mr. Hosuotrsz followed in a strain of singular insolence
—insolence rendered absolutely ludicrous in its effects, by
the intellectual feebleness with which its display was accom-
panied. Mr. Hobhouse is a weak, pragmatical, conceited per-
son, who obviously labours under the delusion that nature
has endowed him with oratorical talent. His attempts to
school Sir George Sinclair in the properties of discussion,
when the merits of whiggery constitute the theme, formed as
fine a speimen of the forcible-feeble as has recently been ex-
hibited, even in the reformed parliament.
Mr. LEADER said he could only account for the re-
probation they had just heard from the lips of the last
speaker of the very clever speech, in his (Mr. Leader's)
opinion of the right honourable baronet (Sir Robert Peel,)
in the excess of fraternal affection, and the honourable mem-
ber's resentment against the right hon. baronet for so power-
ful an attack upon a cabinet of which his brother (Sir John
Hobhouse) formed a part. (A laugh.) Before he proceeded
further into the examination of the subject, he begged to put
honourable members on their guard both on one side of the
house, and on the other who were in favour of the resolution
—it was by no means to be inferred because the majority
voted in approbation of the conduct of the executive govern-
ment of Ireland, the same persons would give the present ad-
visers of her Majesty a general vote of approbation of their
conduct of public affairs. Far from it. Ile, for one, would
give no such vote, because he felt he ought not, could not
conscientiously give it (Loud cheering from the tories, and
considerable tumult in the house.) Let not the government
therefore deceive itself. The vote would not be a vote of ge-
neral approbation of their conduct as a ministry. If they
would say or contend it was a vote of confidence, he would
ask them whose confidence? (Hear, hear.) Was it to be
thence inferred the government had the confidence of that
powerful party on the opposite side of the house, which, al-
though it often lent the ministry its support, never failed to
tell them, through the right honourable baronet, or some
round him, of the feelings of contempt which that powerful
party entertained of them as a government.—(hear, hear.)—
a contempt which, he would add, they richly merited? (Vo-
ciferous cheering.) Was it the confidence of the radicals that
the division would import ? Upon every constitutional ques-
tion the radicals opposed and spoke against the present go-
vernment. The only party upon whose confidence they could
safely perhaps reckon was the Irish party, certainly a very
important party in that house ; but he would even, whilst
making this admission, ask, was the confidence of this party
extended to the ministry for and on account of the legisla-
tive measures of that government towards Ireland ? If they
enjoyed that confidence, what then became of the outcry and
dissatisfaction amongst that party in consequence of the
withdrawal by the noble lord of the appropriation clause
from the Irish Tithe Bill? (Loud and general cheering.)
Could this party, after their reiterated pledges, ever be
satisfied with any Tithe Bill without that essential, clause

What, too, is to be understood by the institution of the Pre-
cursor Association,?- Did not all this show that whatever
confidence the ministry enjoyed at their hands was solely on
account of their executive government of Ireland ? There
was another class, unluckily for the ministry—almost now a
defunct class—upon whose confidence they might have cal-
culated—namely, the pure whigs, who were numerically re-
duced to officials in the government, or persons who expect-
ed one day to be officials (a laugh). In respect, therefore, to
them, they might be said only to enjoy their own confidence.
Had they the confidence of the landed aristocracy ? How-
ever the government might have condescended on many oc-
casions to flatter that class, and assure it that government
had no desire to see it lose its just,weight and influence, that
class was not deceived;_ and it is well known they repose no
confidence in
.the present government. (Hear, hear.) As
to the confidence they possessed from the agricultural por-
tion of the nation let their recent defeats at the North Devon
and Carlow elections speak for themselves. As to the manu-
facturing classes, the confidence the whigs could inspire them
with must be small indeed when the head of the government,
in reply to their numerous petitions for cheaper bread, in-
sultingly stated, in his plsce in parliament, that they must be
lunatics to expect the corn laws to he repealed. (" Oh, no,
no," from the ministerial side of the house.) " Oh, but he
did," said Mr. Leader, " for I heard him." (A laugh.)
How could the government calculate upon the confidence of
the working classes ? Already in every large town a candi-
date would be scouted who would have the rashness to defend
the general policy of the government ; and even at Edinburgh,
which was once the hotbed of whiggery, they had on a late
occasion displayed, in the most decided manner, their dissa-
tisfaction and displeasure at the conduct of the ministry.
Where would the whigs look for confidence ? Certainly not
to any party but themselves within that house ; nor yet to
any great body out of doors. What a miserable situation
this for a government ! (Loud cheers.) Yet the noble lord
(Morpeth) had, strange to say, last night said they called on
the house for a vote of entire confidence. He added, too,
that they would no longer continue to be a government upon
sufferance. He would tell them they had been some time a
government upon the sufferance of some ten or twelve mem-
bers of that house. (Loud cheers from the conservative side
of the house.) And he would tell them, that if some seven
or eight of that small number only went over, they would
be a government no longer. (Immense cheering.) Indeed,
if a motion as to want of confidence in her Majesty's govern-
ment upon their general policy should be brought on by the
hon. baronet, nothing could save them from being left in a
minority. (Hear.) Thus it was that the right hon. baronet
(Sir R. Peel) governed in fact England, and the hon. and
learned member (Mr. O'Connell) governed Ireland. The
whigs governed nothing but Downing-street. (Loud laughter
and cheering.) The right hon. baronet was content with the
possession of power, without its general concomitants, place
and emolument ; whilst the whig government were obliged
to be content with the place and the emolument, without the
power—(hear) ; and he would leave it to the house to deter-
mine which was actuated by the most honourable motive.
(Loud cheers from the opposition.) Well might they merit
contempt who were, as a government, found constantly voting
on questions of a popular nature witji the tories, and against
those who brought them into power. Upon the question of
vote by ballot, upon the partial extension of the suffrage,
upon the repeal of the rate-paying clause, the noble lord and
his government were ever found voting with the conserva-
tives, and against those who brought them into power. Not
only did they desert the people, who were the cause of their
elevation, but they deserted and turned . their back upon
members of their own government, as they had most shame-
fully done with respect to Lord Durham last year, and lately
when, by a secret juggle in the ministry itself, they contrived
to dismiss one of their colleagues, Lord Glenelg, a man
whom, when a motion was brought forward for condemning
his conduct in respect to Canada, the members of the same
government designated as the best and ablest of her majesty's
servants, and declared their determination to go out with
him if the motion were carried against him. In all these
instances, and many more, the government had been losing
character. They had abandoned the cause of the people,
and been as conservative as the mere arrayed upon the oppo-
sition benches. Looking upon these facts impartially he
was prepared to agree with the hon. member for London
(Mr. Grote), and say, if they were to have tory measures of
government from a cabinet, he should prefer having them
proposed and carried by a tory government, who would be
responsible for carrying such measures rather than see the
tories dictate their own measures to their humble servants
the whigs—(vociferous cheeringfrom the opposition benches.)
Wishing to be clearly understood, as well by his vote to
night as by his speech what his views were, it would be neces-
sary for him in a few words to say what was the reason of
his giving his vote as he intended to do upon this occasion.
This brought up the primary consideration—what was the
question for their consideration? In his opinion, the ques-
tion was, ought Lord Normanby to be censured for his
government of Ireland ? He felt he could not vote for such
a censure of the noble lord's government, though it was to
him a subject of regret; because he was as desirous as any
member on the opposite side of the house, though from a
different motive, to mark his want of confidence in the pre-
sent government. When he witnessed the display on the
part of the Irish people of their sentiments of gratitude and
approbation towards Lord Normanby, which had accom-
panied his departure from that country, he could not acqui-
esce in the proposed amendment of the hon. bart. He
therefore was constrained to vote with the government, not
for the government—(hear, hear)—and this vote he was pre-
pared to give solely in favour of Lord Normanby's adminis-
tration of Ireland. (The hon. member's speech was received
throughout with evident demonstrations of surprise by one
side of the house, and with loud cheering by the other.)
Sergeant JACKSON, in a sensible speech, pointedout many
of the abuses perpetrated by Lord Normanby's administra-
tion in Ireland.

Then followed Mr. &MIL, whose oration has been the
theme of whig anticipation for some days past—whose points
and extemporaneous sallies have been, obviously, the price
of sweat and pain—who has actually resigned his Greenwich
commissionership , in order that his wonder-working harangue
might proceed from the lips of a member unfettered by the
trammels of place—and who, at this moment, expects the
vice-presidentship of the Board of Trade, as the price of his
unbought eloquence. Mr. Sheil's speech was extra-elabo-
rately Sheilish—was in other words, a laboriously bad spe-
cimen of the worst school of oratory that ever offended good
t"Vr. CoLoauLtuuiv rose, but the cries or ui v me' ad-
journ," and " Lord Stanley," were so incessant that it was
impossible to hear him.
The SPEAKER said, if it was desirable to bring this long
debate to a close that night, that purpose could only be
effected by those present, giving their attention to those who
were desirous to speak. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLQUHOUN then said, that the grounds upon which
he refused to give his support to the motion of the noble
lord were, that neither in the administration of justice—the
constitution of juries—the appointment of stipendiary magi-
strates, or the police, had the government of Ireland acted
with fairness and impartiality. The whole distribution of
the patronage of Lord Morpeth was founded on the worst
possible principles. (Here the cries of " divide" and " ad-
journ " became so very decided that the hon. member sat
down, and the gallery was about to be cleared for a division;
when

Lord STANLEY rose and said that he hardly knew whether
at that late hour he could venture to presume upon the in-
dulgence of the house—(cries of hear, hear). He was anxious
to have heard all that could be said on the other side of the
house upon this important question before lie offered any ob-
servations of his own, leaving, of course, to his noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) the right to which he was entitled of reply-
ing to the whole of the debate. But having arrived at the
conclusion of what he supposed the noble lord the secretary
for Ireland would call this Alexandrine discussion, he feared
the public, who were watching their observations, and who
would criticise and compare the course taken by the House
of Lords with that recommended to and adopted by the House
of Commons, would not find, except in the quantity, any
great advantage obtained by the latter over the former—
(hear, hear.) He was of opinion that the House of Lords
had acted with the greatest moderation—(cheers, and cries of
" Oh, oh," from the ministerial side). He thought the pub-
lic would be of opinion that the House of Lords had acted
with great moderation in confining itself within the legitimate
exercise of its own functions, without at all interfering with
those of the co-ordinate branch of the legislature—(hear,
hear). He feared, however, that the public would think that
the House of Commons had, by this proceeding, interfered
with the constitutional rights of the other branch of the legis-
lature—(hear, hear). He thought the House of Commons,
instead of waiting for inquiry, were rashly determined to
praise the government without any investigation whatever—
(hear, hear.) He feared that, while demanding that their
own rights should be respected, they were pursuing a course
both hasty and weak, and as unjustifiable in argument as it
must be unavailing in effect—(hear, hear). What course had
the House of Lords pursued on this occasion ? The noble
lord who ;had opened that debate (Lord John Russell) had
assumed that the resolution of the House of Lords was a cen-
sure upon Lord Normanby and upon the government to which
he belonged ; and to his great surprise the noble lord, who
had great parliamentary experience, assumed it to be a great
aggravation of the censure—not that the House of Lords had
come to any particular vote, but that the vote was enforced
by the speech of an individual member of the other house, of
which speech he had no right to have cognizance. What
was it to that house by whom a motion was made in the other
house of parliament ?—(cries of " oh !") He would ask those
hon. members who cried " oh" what parliamentary know-
ledge they could have as to who proposed the motion 1—
(hear' hear.) If hon. members wished to set aside all those
guards which the constitution had interposed against need-
less interference between the two houses, his noble friend
(Lord J. Russell) had given them an example which they
might well follow. Knowing, however, as he did, the respect-
ive rights of the two branches of the legislature, he was at a
loss to know in what parliamentary way his noble friend had
acquired a knowledge of what passed in the other house of
parliament. That house had no right to comment on the
speech of an individual member of the other house of parlia-
ment, and apart from that speech, he should contend that
there was no censure upon the government in the resolution
of the House of Lords. His noble friend would not venture
to say that it did contain a censure, but he said that the
speech by which the resolution was accompanied did contain
a censure. If the house would bear with him for a single
moment, he would repeat a circumstance which he had read
of the other day. A country surgeon, on returning home on
an evening from his practice, was suddenly summoned away
by a servant on a foaming horse, telling him that a most
dreadful accident had occurred to his master's eldest son.
The surgeon, on going to the house, found all in confusion,
in agony, and alarm. On going np stairs, and looking at the
young gentleman, he called for a pair of scissors, and putting
a bit of sticking-plaister to the scratch, which had been the
cause of such alarm, he said that the cure was now complete
—(" oh, oh"). Was not the language of the government, on
receiving the dreadful gash to their honour from the attack of
the House of Lords, the same as that of the terrified parents
of the young gentleman ? And was not the motion of the
noble lord a little bit of sticking-plaister to apply to this dan-
gerous wound ? (Loud laughter.) Let him tell the noble
lord that the sticking-plaister practice would not answer.
(Hear.) He did not know whether the hon. member for
Finsbury was in his place. (" Yes, yes.") Suppose that
the hon. member was to hold a post mortem examination on
her Majesty's government, and to do his duty it would pro-
perly fall, as the coroner for Middlesex—he should like, in
such a case, to hear that gentleman charging the jury. He
would, no doubt, expatiate on the great advantage of a medi-
cal coroner. " Oh, oh," and laughter.) He wouldtell them
that a short time ago the deceased received a slight scratch,
which, in a person of a sound habit of body, would not have
produced the slightest inconvenience, but that the patient,
being of a weakly constitution, and having been treated with
great want of skill by his medical attendant, who, instead of
probing to the bottom of the wound, was content to cover it
over with a little sticking-plaister, leaving the sore festering
and unsound beneath. (Renewed laughter.) He (Lord
Stanley) knew that it would give the hon. member great pain
to charge his colleague, the other member for Finsbury, with
being in any degree accessory to the death of the subject.
But of this he was certain that, attribute the death of the
party to what cause they might, they would not find a verdict
of manslaughter, still less of murder, against the order of the
House of Lords. (" Oh, oh," from the ministerial benches,
responded by cheers from the opposition.) He was sure that
his right hon. friend, the secretary for the home department,
did not like the joke.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL.—A bad joke. (Laughter.)
Lord STANLEY did not think that it would appear as a
joke at all. He would ask them, if they should carry this
motion, of what advantage would it be ? The following was
the condition in which they now stood, according to the
statement of one of their own supporters in the debate of
last night—there was war in America and India—prepara-
tions for war on the part of Russia—alarm, excitement, and
distrust in the colonies—and 3,000,000 of chartists ready to
take arms at home. Of what service, he *mild agaiu ask,
would there be any majority which they could have that

night, which would be infinitely less than the number of their
official supporters in that house ? (Loud opposition cheers.)
What effect would such a majority have on the House of
Lords ? Would it prevent that body from pursuing the in-
quiry? (Hear.) It would have no such effect. They would
see that the House of Lords would go on with the investi-
gation, strong in the consciousness that they were temper-.
ately and moderately discharging a public duty. (Cheers.)
They would not condemn without inquiry, but probe out the
cause for condemnation or acquittal. He knew that the vote
of that night would not have the slightest effect on their in-
vestigation, and, if not, what effect would it have on the cha-
racter of that house for judgment and deliberation on other
occasions ? It would show to the country that the vote of
this house was treated in a manner which he should regret
ever to see a vote of that house treated with, indifference,
and almost with slight by the co-ordinate branch of the legis-
lature. (" Hear," and loud cheers.) He would entreat the
noble lord to refrain from bringing matters to such a state ;
but he feared that he asked in vain. He knew that the noble
lord would allow the question to be brought to that crisis by
a majority of unwilling friends and of hard taskmasters.
(Loud cheers.) Though by a combination of such discord-
ant elements they might obtain a majority, it would be still
to him, as it would be to the great party with whom he acted,
a source of satisfaction that in this crisis of the country their
voices were raised and their votes were given in opposition to
a measure of unjustifiable intrusion and impotent resentment.
(Loud and long continued cheering.)
Mr. O'CONNELL rose amidst cries of " Question." He
defended the Irish executive ; denied that the administration
ought to be controlled by the lords ; dwelt upon the injuries
committed by tory governments upon Ireland for centuries ;
and described outrages committed by orangemen on the
catholics, and the persecution the peasantry sustained from
their landlords. He concluded by telling the tories, that
they might be tyrants, but the Irish people would not be,
slaves. _ _ _

Sir F. BURDETT addressed the house for several minutes,
but was rendered inaudible by the impatient cries for a
division. _

Lord JoHN RUSSELL said, if the house were earlier he
should wish to reply to the noble lord the member for North
Lancashire ; but at that hour, and after so many able
speeches on his (Lord J. Russell's) side of the question, he
did not think it necessary to occupy the time of the house
for many minutes. His motion had been objected to on two
grounds. It was, in the first place, argued that the conclu-
sion which had been come to in the other house was not a
censure upon the government of Ireland, and that his motion
was consequently uncalled for. Nay, that it was unneces-
sary and uncalled for interference with that ordinary inquiry
into which either house might enter at its pleasure. It was
further argued that the House of Commons should not inter-
fere, upon which no opinion could be formed until it came to
a conclusion. If the first ground of objection were to be
relied upon—if the motion which was carried in the lords, in
which the government was attacked, or he should say ca-
lumniated, was a mere exercise of an accustomed function,
where was the danger of collision from his resolution ? If
the other ground were taken, and if the House of Lords
thought proper to impeach the administration of Ireland, the
House of Commons have an equal and as undoubted a right
to entertain the same question. (Hear, hear.) He should
like to know the period in our constitutional history in which
it was laid down that the House of Commons had no right
to express its opinion when the other house proposed to con-
demn a large portion of the executive government ? (Hear,
hear.) The House of Lords having, with as much decency
as they can well manage, procured a majority in the com-
mittee, and, for aught he knew, having already drawn up its
report—(cries of Shame, shame")—why the speech in the
lords when the motion was made warranted the conclusion,
and it was necessary that a decision upon the point should be
arrived at. Was the House of Commons ever before in such
a situation ? A committee to inquire into a portion of the
administration had been instituted in the House of Lords,
but surely the commons could not decide upon their evidence.
(Hear, hear.) Was it proper that they should wait perhaps
three, six, or nine months, and then acquiesce in the decision
of the other house ? (Hear, hear.) Was the House of
Commons unable to decide for itself, as to its opinion, with
respect to the government of Ireland ? (Hear, hear.) His
noble friend the member for North Lancashire, said that the
house would not gain by coming into collision with the House
of Lords. His noble friend at the same time read a letter,
which stated that the evils of Ireland were deeply rooted, and
had existed for many years. Upon that argument he (Lord
J. Russell) stood, and upon that argument he contended
that the House of Lords was not justified in passing a reso-
lution, which implied that crime in Ireland had been owing
to the present administration. Though the resolution of the
House of Lords affected the government of Ireland only for
the year 1835, still it was clear that the effect of it would have
a bearing on the governments of Lords Wellesley and An-
glesey. He was persuaded that the proposition brought
forward in the other house could not have a majority of the
House of Commons in its favour. His decided opinion was,
that by transferring the executive government to any com-
mittee, or any other hands, they would but commence a
struggle in which their real and undoubted privileges would
be placed in a state of the greatest danger.
The house then divided.

For Sir Robert Peel's amendment
Against it
Majority in favour of ministers.

-22

At the moment of our return to the gallery we found
Lord JOHN RUSSELL on his legs, speaking to a point of
order, in respect to the mode of putting the amendment of
the hon. member for Finsbury (Mr. Thomas Duncombe).
He wished to explain that it would be necessary, in order to
introduce the addition of the words proposed, that they be
put only on a third division.
Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE said he was putting the motion
as he had originally intended when he had given his notice.
He had used the word " adopted" in his amendment. Per-
haps he ought of have said, when the right hon. baronet's
amendment should be rejected." He (Mr. Dancombe) should
move his amendment.

The gallery was again cleared for division, but none took
place.

On our return to the gallery we found Sir ROBERT PEEL
on his legs, stating that he had no wish to trouble the house
by going to another division on the original motion.
The gallery was again cleared, when we were excluded ;
but shortly after the gallery was reopened, and on our return
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was speaking.on the point of order
to reverence to Air. Luncombe s amendment.

Mr. DUNCOMBE said that, as justice had been done to
Ireland, he only wished to see justice done to England.
Dr. LUSHINGTON, in a very energetic manner addressing
the house. He begged to put it to his hon. friend the mem-
ber for Finsbury whether in a case of this kind, which in-
volved a question of so much importance, he could suppose
he was forwarding the cause he espoused by the course which
he was pursuing. There were in that house many honest
and zealous reformers, would not consent, without a discus-
sion, to commit themselves to a motion so perfectly indefi-
nite in all its terms. He hoped there was no intention to
force them into a division ; let it not be supoosed, however,
that they were afraid to stand before the people of the country
by negativing this motion. They were prepared to vote
against it, and to take the consequences upon themselves.
The gallery was again cleared. The numbers were as
follow : _ _

For Mr. Duncombe's motion Bl
Against it ..
Majority.... -218
The house adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock.