Star.
London, England, 1828-05-10 00:00:00

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awe"' halm that tins tlgrei taking ideintage of darkeeell might
nollvaa bit den, and display hisnatural ferocity ? Was the Ho.
harshly :Baronet (Sir Francis Ilurdett), prepared to aim any
sentinel'?- He told them last night be was not, and treated all
tematity as a matter net of the least imponance—of no mote value
than the amulet euspended from the neck of a child. He even
brought ft to the level of the horae.alses nailed to the pea-
sant's door, for the purpose of averting some undefined evil. These
were the sentiments of the Hon. Baronet. He, however (Mr. Se-
emery Peens tntertarmed very different opinions, and attached
moth More importance tithe principle of security. No security'
which bad 'hitherto been offered at any time appeared to him sum.
deot to Meer the consequeoces which must arise from such a change.
It must be .rat dented that in ether countries, where the ruling
toner was Pfhtestant, the Roman Catholic religion was incorpo-
rated With the sate. Take Prussia, for instance; there the Ito.
nisi/Catholic religion was so far a part of the State, that the Crown
bad i cempkte and full dominion in Milesiastical matters. •The
Bkholgies were endowed by the State; Bishops appointed. and
Provision. made for the education of she people. without say biter.
fete rte On the part of the Pope. Any web security as this, even
If attainable hen weak' still, if die present restrktions were ri-
mmed, be productive of 8o much distrust, si;aptch uneasiness, as
would fr,Attlaq temporary good that might tie obtained a very
deer purchase. Even if the Roman Catholic Religion could be
placed here Is the same relation to the State as in Prussia. it must
atillbe the scarce of perpetual struggle and discontent. The partial
naldislinent of the Catholic Religion *Mist necessarily lead to an
winesing neatest for superiority, and thus produce, in an increased
degree, that religious animosity which he considered as the greatest
eutmlivith which any country could be afflicted. In the tare of Ha-
nover also, a similar power belonged intim King of England, with
respect tothe appointment of Romap Catholic Bhhims. No country
therefore in Europe was placed in a situation similar arthatin
which the Honourable Baronet proposed to place this. Though
thti Might have no feats of she Pope or the Pretender, 'stash was
not to be forgotten that the Roman Catholic religion es.rcised a
mere ceosiderahte haven= on civil society. Ile must say therefore,
that the alteration proposed by the motion had a necessary ten-
dency to destroy what had been proposed and secured by the Re-
voludeorthe Ptotestaat elterectecef the Constitution. That Pro.
entallt.tharacter timid no longeeqxist, if the Legislature and the
high.olliees of State were to be disown open to Roman Cetholica:-.
(Hear, bear). In such a sea of thingi as that contemplated by the
motion, the King might be 'dated this situation of seeing In Par-
liament Roman saaolin; eshe:ltad risen to estimate by their
abilities, who by their sitniceti had rendered themeless eligible to
poplar I and then mother question would naturally arise in the
of the Sovereign, whether be should appoint them to oace?
Mitt was clear, midst be; source of perpetual embarrassment on
oat ; and nettle other.of thetdiscoutent which naturally arose
from the disappointment of linpes. He beard it sometimes observed,
and be must say wick eurpri.e, thin there existed but little difference
between the Roman Catholic religion and the pure tenets of their
• own Church—(Hrier !) He could liana, without impatience, to the
arguments against making difference of religion the ground of ex.
dada); but he must say that when told of the little difference be-
moan the Cathcak•and Protestant religion it gave him some Gor-
r*. It the Catholics, it was• said, bad their confession and atm.-
Itithet,•the Protestants too had their form of absolution; if the
Catlike*, bad their artidel of faith, the Protestants bad their Atka. d
badge geoid. If; in truth, there existed so trifling• a difference 1
beennelitheta, his fears, in place of being diminished,were increased,
preportirm as he beard it argued, that the difference between
tie Catholic Church and the pure faith they profeased was small,-
tle hold the Hon. Baronet say last night, that the difference
was sept great; that the -Protestant religion was partly Catholic,
pertly Lutheran, partly Othinistic. . However it might be coins
Fool, the difference was great and essential. The very word Pro.
teams Implied dissent from the corruptions of the Church of Rome
7.olipar !) So much for thegeneral argument as to the bearing of •
Veitton on the Coasthistionond on this country in particular. •
jaw'-taste to its tearing .on Ireland--(Hear, bear! from the
• fJpposiden Benches.) He never denied the importance of its bearing I
Ittehat puiet of view. •If he could dearly see that tbe prosperity,
the pease, and harmony that country could be emoted uy the
ninoval of those disabilities which affected Roman Catholics. no •
difficelty which presented itself to his mind with respect Is coo.
alsotienal principles should deter hint frost applying die reinedy,if
he thooght the result would be a perniment removal of the Mane. I
dent and troubles of inland--(Hear !) It was because be doubted
whether such effects would' follow,_ that be mutt- still persevere in
his opposition. Hearing every Hon . Gentleman connected with I
Indeed say that the Protestant Chunk as established there, shOuld
beassintained, be must say that., if such were the case, if the Pro.
teethe Church must be supported, it world be a most unwise policy.
to admit Catholics to an equal participation of power. He did tat 4
sties* to deny the evils connected with exclesioti ;but the alternative,
theta admitthie Catholics to place and pewer,was pregnant with far
goidet Mischiefs. Them were, it was sald, fle six mit
lions of
Raman Catholics in Irelands and GMT four er Eye ored thoesaad
Ptotestatits. He did not believe the disproportion was so great...-
Whew it was proposed to gnat civil akin alike to Protestant. and
Catholic. it became very natural to inquire bow the Catholics used
the mower* they already possessed? What were the declarations
that body who were sopposed to speak their sentiments? What
Wen the declarations of their Prints ? What hope did their ma. I
duetl afford, that if Fanancipation were granted It would operate a
firsi sesibmetin of all Misting differences? The Right Honourable
Gentlemen opposite Able. N. Fitzgerald) iufornied them that
there existed at present in Ireland a combination of physical
strength *0 spiritual influence. What security was there that,
Aerate present disabilities were removed. some orbet object,
trqsalg dear anl equally intervenes, would net arise, and attract
the monies the same coothinatiou ?..-(Loud cheers). The
aemosrthie 'Gentlemen opposite deserved *eery credit for their
cateloar. .They did lot conceal the danger, nor the sources from
which it wine. They was opposed this statics were told ne.
they were the case of. the ersE-4Hears hears frost the Opposition).
lichee they conceded what was asked for, had they not reason
tomisiquire try that whlck was already possessed haid been men;
and.eming hew it had born used, had they Da reason to fear the
consesponcet -et green* further power ? Could it be said that
the only object of dm Petitioners was admission to the Legislature
and nein% sifficre.nrhiet it was men with what systematic pose.
nether eisdeamenq Ina made to traduce and misrepresent every
measure lesought hits that House' with a view is the emetic:anima
of the team M Ireland? How allealuously they laboured to detest
am* tn essorei. and tosainepresent the motive* of public men. He.
would instancy the.disthdeting Aux; winch was calculated to be in
the lughweetirgree beneficial, and was- suppotted by three 'Gentle.
*es wits raudotady. advocated the times; question. This was
sot the slit Meade: which they endeavoured co render odious.
He might Weaver also the lireeiriee mut one introduced by
Friesid. Lord Plunkett, napecting the burying of the
Smug these things was them not every reason to fear
thatif the anotiou were aimed to, it existing disabilities were re-
moved, MU. as his honourable Fated (Mr. L. Foster) well ob-
verted, some ether olive( would present itself, some Mher revue
seise feresecrisig iota new Associations. The removal of those
disahiliks would ceder two powers of •a different oatute—eligMoe
i.
Ref arsiaos end to Parlierent. There would be no ebbs:
ea the part id the Craton to raise Catholics to te ; bus it
they sew {ere excluded, would not suck .schnion prove
far Stare awenging thaa When it depended. nee on the act of
Sweereign, bet co • the law Over the other species of
pewee which emancipation would confer--eligibility to Parlia-
MeM-ethe Craws would have ao contenel. It was impossible to
&my that the anastimensey of Ireland was Romeo Catholic. At
they esereised their rights in that House through Prater
CT; ary. Was ft to be supposed that such. would ciegiuue long
to be the ease after the it:halite disabilities nye removed? They
Weald use Yemeni eligibio to all corporate Amt. lie had heard
k competed that them ware la Ireland 115 corporations, having
&Ain oases- cooneeted•Seith them.. AU three would be throws
upon 1010111 W Chlboll4% 7.olprnettta power in these corporate
townie poshi pettedly heempenk object of 'albinos'. Here the
<keen 'bed so contest mid they yams therefore be prepared
to see tassyst those oleo .4.01 by, Houma Catholics. Their
power oldies for {sadqp;ovli waist Awn be most inatelf.4
n. shoulteathler die argument in favour M
asre44d d.
it
at ion eed. it *lse Om*, the remit would be the per-
- 1431raill pose* direspaskg,, and baptisms of the country.
qua 'impost, the egnili espy that the disabilities die not
grey aht to- nie ek44.10, U. they "saes tent ether causes;
be Soda** shwelit lipsthile at the Censetrencee of
tee ate itimesiee pews do elm the
Cathelic(Hear)—lae
slid ate think she &Yokota* fil k • eutdd is any way Wad i°
becarity eel the %Preseason ilkonlis-ef Wear). tat the Home Molt
line
et .the ;reams of 'No years. cola illet,Bo.l conduct, ,
Catholics damn lessee to coopers's Pu aar;osulas toe l
liaradre al the evettny 1—(11ear). Look 4 04,
einiartZ:
nisi is that simentry—' ' 'r
M/4-W i°
ilrid not the , poet
so prevent the
instated that th
i 3 the Catholic
deteuitst rations
biotin •at the c.
they en the same
k. been
said that they
lo:nreauce,
l,.it it WO a
is rangellllllgli,
We tom ..ous
ewe iir itrelPwlk
of his
.kit,had recourse
epee all vital(

.. . .
attempted to roues religious feelings or religious pi t 'mikes in aid
of the cause be supported. He felt it liii duty, when Prtitli.tb•
against the questioo were placed in his b:inds to protein them ; but
be never encouraged such Petitions. He at the same time offered
his study persevering opposition to it bitberto, aa be was likely to
do in future---ant however without basing given it the most serious
consideration. Notwithstanding the high authorities which were
opposed to him—notwithstanding the balanced state of parties in
.that House upon this great (peados, he must conclude by saying,
that in his view they would best discharge their duty by epposiug
the motion of the Hoe. Baronet, and allowing Roman Catholics
still to remain precisely on the same footing—(Continued cheers).
Lord W. PAGET said, that be felt himself bound to support
the Hon. Baronet's•rnotion—(Hear). He was persuaded that if
the Catholics of Ireland were placed on a footing of equality with
their Protestant brethren, they would speedily forget and forgive
all the injuries which they bad endured, and would exhibit as much
loyalty and good conduct as any other class of the community. •
' Mr. M. FITZGERA LI) rose to explain He stared that Lord
.CorewsUis had communicated to him, that the tease.) of Mr. Pitt's
having delivered to him his papers was a desire that they should be
imparted to the people.of Ireland. When Mrs Pitt resigned, it
was his expressed wish that office .should be' retained by all his
(rleuds who were favourable to Catholic Emancipation.
• Mr. PEEL explained. He never meant 'to convey the slightest
imputation against the Hon. 'Member: The Administrative of sir.
Pitt had not retired on account of any pledge given to the Catho-
lics. They retired because they could not carry a measure which
they deemed essential to the interests of the counter.
Mr. BROW N LOW was not without a hope that the 'question
was susceptible of a lavourable adjustment. The Right lion.
Gentleman opposite was very ready to discuss what the Treaty of
Limerick meant, but he was Jess ready to determine .whit the ex.
isting state of the country required with 'reipect to Catholics. It
might be interesting tohnow what had been the views of Mr. Pitt
and Lord Cornwallis with respect to Ireland; but it was far more
important to understand what the Cabinet of the present day were
disposed to do for the Catholic population of Ireland. The propo-
sition of the Hon. Baronet affected the'intetests of seven millions of
people, who came before the House, praying to be admitted to equal
tights with the rest of their fellow subjects. He never could admit
that there was soy thing unconstitutional in-the ease which the Peti.
timers brought before tho laise. The Solicitor Gene: al had said that
it was the duty of Govelement to protect itself against all hostile
opinions; hot bad be established any reason why • the Roman
Catholics could not be plated wan an equal footing.with the test
of the community? Why was the existing system veexclusion to
be continued! No man bad asserted. in the 'course of the debate
that the Catbilies now held a divided allegiahce ; but Lord Liver-
pool had said that Ireland was a place whet* the liberties and the .
glory of England could he overthrown. It bad been said, that the
King gave a divided affec;ipn to Ireland, and that Itelaed gave but
• half its affections to the Kiel; that in Ireland' every subject was a
traitor, and that there the King was alyrant. He bad heard nothing*
of
the sort this night ; but it this were net the case, the present Was
a, opmeen of religious persecution. It was impossible for any person
iliminanse from Ireland to eaplain the state of that country. If the
Heim thought the present to be the cause'Of *few orators and poli-
ticians they were much mistaken, and by their mutate they would
only make the danger greater. • Catholic Emancipation was the
popular hope of Ireland; and,like all other popular hopes, it was
impatient. of delay and ceutrailictiou. , In 1809. Lord Wellesley
had been sent to Madrid to mediate between Spain and her Colo-
nies. Spain bad refused to hear the just Complaints of her Colo-
nists; and she had lust her most valuable posiessions." This ought
to be a warning to other countries. The Mouse ought to recolleet,
that the Catholics were a body rapidly increasing in numbers.,as
well as in wealth and power. There had beep repeated decisious
of the House in their favour, and there was no reason why the.
House should now reverse its former judgments:. It was ha-
possible to settle the question except by the wisdom of conces-
sion, aii4 by identifying she views of Great Weide with the
interests' Of the Irith ,people--(Cries of Question). He would
say, that the British Constitution did not alit
11n 'related, for
the Irish lived tinder, the Catholic 'Associatioo,and 'Me Cabo-
he Priesthood of Ireland and the • lititiek Constitution was
there tumbling to pieces. It was,neceseary to do something for the
PODUIRIIBO in that country; for whilst the mewed hostility existed
between the two sects, it was impistaible teethe Protestants to re-
side any hanger in Ireland. 'De Protestanta had been made the
poi children of she coeiimbeity ; and like all other pet children, they
were tinted by great envy, sad by the barred vf the community.
••410 cared not whether this measure would be received by the Ito.
nasn Catholics as a boon or not. When a law was proposed to
punialt Cut-throats, did our man -ever Mil* of saying to the culprit,
pray is Pe reit pleasure that for your misconduct you come forth
be hangede—(Hear, bear). Let that House do Its duty, and
Oft= such. laws as they, thought most beneficial to the interests of
the country, and then let those who contravene them be punished
as they deserved.—(Hear, bear, bear). 'This Measure was not a
Riff of Pares and ?realties, but a Concession to his Catholic coun-
trymen, and be was quite sure that it would be received by them
as such—if it watenot, he could not belp,it. That House could
not treat the. Roman Catholics of Ireland as a separate body.—
It was their duty, as Members of the Legislature to act upon their
own judgment—to provide such laws as would best conduce to the
security and happiness of the empire at large. Should they find
those laws infringed by the, Bateau Catholics, let the guilty persons
be punished It was with these records that be was prepared to
go into the Committee proposed bi the Honourable Baronet. He
maintained, Mit if they dealt openly, hilly, and generously with the
Roman Catholics, they wield And them loyal and grateful subjects.
Hitherto the remedies proposed had tallest, and why ? because they
had proceeded only by halves. That made of remedying the evil
would never succeed ; they must root out the cancer, withoit
alluwibg a single fibre to remain, or else they would do• nothing.
They must repeal the Penal Code ; they must shake off the frag-
ment of chains which still bung about the limbs of the Irish Catbo.
lies. 1 Whien .tbey . did this, they, would find that body as much
attached to the Law, as loyal to the King, hod as ready to uphold
the British Constitution as any other class of his Majesty's subjects.
The cries of " Question"• and 4. Adjourn" were now renewed,
and continued for-some time. In the midst of ;bent •
• lira W. LA MB rose. Heolmerved that the situation which be
nod, and the opinions which be had before given on this subject,
obliged hint to say a few words, but be would trespass only tOr a
short time on the attention of the •House. Considering the tie-
curtestancee in which we were placed, the state of education in the
thestry, and the state of Europe generally, be. was relieved from ,
rho necessity of adverting to many points of the argument which
bail been heretofore used. He would admit the truth of great 1
part of what bad fallen hem hie Right Hon. Friend as to the
state of feeling in Ireland. He would admit much of what had
ham said of the Catholic Clergy of that country ; but he denied
the *inclusion to which his Right peen. Friend had come. All.
thee:vile which bad been alluded to would be increased and aggra.
vatted by the refusal to concede this trestion:—(Hear, bear). He
admitted the danger, but it would only be increased by delay....
(Hear, bear). Ours was a popular and democratical government,
and. all disabilities affecting a large portion of the people would serve
only to weaken and injure the' State. , The worst sails in such a
government Would be divide° and disunion. - This was the natural
disease of such a government, which it ought so be the duty of a
wise Legislature to prevent. They should avoid by every Weans any
measures which would tend to raise the flag of discontent, and arm
the popular demagogue. He might admit that*ere would be some
anomalies in the measure of relief proposed, but ar was prepared to
admit them—he was ready to admit there was evegoome risk, but
that risk should be encountered, for the sake of a *gait which
would, as he contended, produces, great national good. The Right
Hun. Gentleman then went on to contend, that even if the. Awe of
the proposed measure Mould be to, enable the Catholics of Ireland
se return some thirty or forty Catholic Members to Parliament,'
and that was the very utmost that veld be calculated en at any time
there could be no danger from thief supposed union. They might
have a community of feeling in sums puns, but like all others they
would be dwided .by local interests, and could not be expected
to act unitormly as a body to carry any point against the I
Government, or to force it to any particular measure. Thole
case of the Members for Scotland was a proof of this, foe,
though of different religion fawn Mat of the Established Church
.1
of England, and though-feats had been .enterialued of their
hostility. they had never attempted any measure injurious to
that establishment: As to the argument, that if the Catholic Free-,
hinders of Ireland 410 sot find Catholics to their mind, they might
elect others who would art as they withal, he would say that they
could do that at the present moment. The Right Honourable 1
Gentleman, after imagines on the ebsurdity• of supped".
that Parliament could be hammed by any 'seance from say
fatter, went on to paint out rho necessity 4 not 4alaybit the
reposed /MOOR. To those sells were collmienneede 4leeii4l to
lany measure of concession at mit time, be woold dot address him-
`sell—bur of 'heat who bellenid time •coocession might be loade at
- time, he implored *Ain pit it of—not to cast by the oppor-
- 's amasties, while yet it might be received as a
.1 favour. If these who intended to support the
time were to act epee this, be could count upon a
would be sullldent to set the question at rest for

Questioni "and " Anent:" inlaid with those of
Mentbors, and sails for Mr. .Broegbatu by
senor'
, GRANT roes four different Oases to address
*lure frowned his ssat. on being assailed with
',item a lionsetrovided to moss* nary part.
A 51nigsn.tod tin propriety titbit of. adjoin's
it pranged* Will it & inn to epplibt bob ad.
41101weinarand to continua tip, onisevir; bit aim
useless. tie Right litedlosetbistann toanl Sr.

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ha lotagrohnews. of 1'.......P. and Cagier.% / 101' tbil waster of grace and 1
L she Aikkg° 0 "Ytrafitillo 000.1 ttArbflat YP mason at stens tient
None faktb. Unititlig. .pli those i 4?"W"CmI at the nsaiwrhy, which wow
otrittu
ions of 'twice!. arepob 411 :Waited.— ent„,,aokar. bear).
he tact 01 tbe 'Wu porgatist loving ' Fined fie. The cries of " Qui
•ametlay--(11ea)—ho 110‘ aVestinirelitirat could
0 Go 4...,* by scene
the object int tili..ll*.bi. ..). ikbY by Imam,
ey met to pingss. An acts" Inv' . 't isch a baba.. wow
, remove lbws *bared tj- •"I ' 'law • elk. =ARLES
ipersalie
Alossuilus a ale. kr trim! ft •••' • . . Phi WI" bet as of
oris. ir -itypwied bom* . bower * • Oboe ishigled cr.."
, rtist tow the vagentsvoioido Os' irligh,4 , obsi . - tiabuGliA
ol▪ des,
outgo ttto.:4oaotios. fie oreirow . ci..,..,44.
old its:outgo to my usfalt slide et --. . . 4704-4;‘,‘
miens vices
his object... orgy ip4 On. never • . perfectly, owl

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