Star.
London, England, 1821-05-02 00:00:00

REPORT ON THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

The Army Estimates Report being brought up,
Mr. 11. G. BENNETT remarked, that upon that
subject the House had sat sixteen or seventeen days,
and during the whole of that time he and his Hon.
Friends had not been able to effect the reduction of a
single shilling in any of the items; neither in greater
nor lesser sums had his Majesty's Government given
way in any instance. Although it was not his inten-
tion to go then into the subject at length, he would
state the intention of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) to
move a series of Resolutions, in which the whole
Establishment, Army, Navy, and Ordnance, should
be comprised together, and that if his Honourable
Friend did not move those Resolutions he (Mr. Ben-
nett) would.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
had he brought down Estimates of which the House
could not approve, then indeed the Hon. Gentleman
might object. The Estimates should be considered
with reference to the circumstances of the country,
and not as permanent expenses upon it. The Hon.
Gentleman appears to decline discussion at present,
yet gives notice of the intention of an Hon. Friend
to bring the subject forward at a future day, for
which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would
be quite prepared.
Colonel DAVIES said, that with respect to what
the Right Hon. Gentleman called the approbation
of the House, the country expressed a very different
opinion ; his own was, that if his Majesty's Ministers
had proposed £l,OOO for every £lOO contained in
those Estimates, the same approbation would have
been obtained.

Mr. R. MARTIN expressed great indignation at
this charge made against the majority of that House
as capable of acts of the greatest criminality and pro-
fligacy. He believed that Hon. Gentleman would
not have said so to any one of those Gentlemen out-
side the Bar who formed a part of the majority on
that night. At least, he should by disposed to think
be would not presume to tell him so elsewhere.
The SPEAKER rose to order, conceiving that
no direct or personal imputation bad been made to

the Honourable Member whe last spoke. It was
competent to the Honourable Member generally to
reprobate a vote of the House, or its mode of dis-
posing of the, public money.
Colonel DAVIES explained. He meant net to
ascribe anything dishonourable to individuals; but
he said that the blind confidence of the aggregate, in
Ministers, was so great, that they would have voted
£l,OOO, instead of £lOO, if required. With regard
to the observation made by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Martin) he would merely state, that he would not
shrink from avowing out of that House everything
he advanced in it.

TheCHA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER con-
ceived, that so far'from the observations of the gal-
lant Officer being offensive, he had only paid a very
high compliment to his Majesty's Government, in
stating that the House would at their instance vote
£l,OOO instead of every £lOO.
Mr. SCARLETT said, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had a right
to consider the vote of the majority of that House as
evincing its confidence in has Majesty's Ministers;
that confidence which grew so naturally out of their
intimate.connexion with that majority.
Several items of the Report were then read and
agreed to.
On the vote of the sum of £122,374, for the pay
of General Officers being put,
Sir R. FERGUSON rose to call the attention of
his Majesty's Ministers to one class of General Offi-
cers—he meant a number of old and deserving Offi-
cers, now promoted to the rank of General Officers,
with only the half-pay of Lieutenant-Colonel, or per-
haps only that of Major. Amongst others, he had a
latter from one who had been in active service for
thirty-six years, who was now newly sixty years of
age, who had a family, and was in declining health,l
Who had been promoted to the ra ik of Major-Gene-
ral, and had but the half-pay of Major to live on
after having served his country faithfully and meri-
toriously for a period of forty-one years.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in the absence
of the Noble Lord at the head of the department
(Lord Palmerston), said he could give no specific in-
formation to the House, but he had-reason to believe
that the subject alluded to by the gallant Officer was
in contemplation.
On the question that the Half-pay be taken into
reconsideration,
Colonel DAVIES rose to move the Resolution of
which he had given notice. He wished to direct the
serious attention of the House to the subject of the
Half-pay. It was monstrous and unjusi not to prefer
the claims of Officers upon Half.pay in general to
those of persons in civil life, when appointments were
to be filled np. To act upon such a principle would
be doing justice to them, and making a great saving
to the country. He then made t following state. I
ment to prove the small proportion of appointments'
made from the Half-pay List, and to skew the ad-
vantage which would he derive) to the Public from
pursuing a different system.
Total number of Officers on Half-pay, December 25, 1820,
exclusive of General Officers.—(There are besides Officers on
Full-pay retired),
English Ilalf-pay - - - - 8,156
Irish ditto 460

8,616
Total sum paid annually - X 765,781 16s. 2d.
Total of Appointments from Half-pay to Full-pay, upon
Vacancies and not by Exchinge, from Ist January,
1816, to Ist July, 1820, being four years and a hilf, of
all ranks - - - ---- - 411
Total number of Ensigns and Cornets, Dec. 2S, 1820 • 1,421
Total number of Appointments to first Commissions, as Ensigns
and Cornets, of persons from civil life, without purchase.
Of Officers from Half-pay, not by
Exchange or Purchase.
1816 - - - 134 • - - - 9
1817 - - - 71 - - - - 9
1818 - - 89 - -
1819 - - - 104 - - - - 14
1830 - - 110 - - 12

That had half the appointments been filled up from Half-pay,
averaging the ages of the Ensigns and Cornets in 1916 at 92, and
their llalf-pay being £35 per annum, the sum saved to the Pub-
lic, which may be considered the same as would be paid for the
purchase of an annuity of £55, would be in Comets and Ensigns
alone, as follows :
_ _ _

Annuities of £iS for persons 122 Tears of age.
1816 - X6l • - - ,6923 each - £56,425
1317 - 31 - - 23 PI 6 - - 28,296
1818 - 40 - - 24 912 - - 36,480
1819 - 4S - - 2S 909 . - 40,905
1820 - 49 - 23 903 - - 44,247

Total
Thus it was evident that if only a moiety of the va•
cancies in the army were filled up from the Half-pay
List, the saving to the country would be of great
importance. The Resolution which he was about to
move was copied verbatim from a Resolution which
had been carried nem. con. in the year 1740. He
then moved the following Resolution :
" That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that
for the present and future ease of his Majesty's subject % he
would be graciously pleased to employ in bis army such ler-
sons as now remain upon HAlf-pay, who are still qualified to
serve his Majesty."
Lord PALMERSTON said, that his Majesty's
Government was inclined to gratify the cravings of
Officers for employment, as far as was consistent,
with the public service. With respect to first com-
missions, from January, 1816, to January, 1821,
eleven hundred and one had been filled lip ; of these
only 508 were without purchase : 114 had been given
to Cadets from the Military College, and eighty to
Officers on half-pay, leaving 314, which had been be-
stowed without purchase. Ou an average, sixty-two
commissions had been given away annually, and
thirty-eight to the Military College and Half-pay i
List. Were all given to Half-pay Officers, it would
close the Army against those classes whom it was
constitutional and essential to unite in close connec-
tion, and identify with the interests of the country;
and contended it was desirable to connect the Army
with the mass of the property of the country.
Mr. HUME could not allow this motion to pass
without stating some facts connected with the Half-
pay. The Return he held stated that, in five -years,
411 Officers from the number on half-pay (seven
thousand nine hundred and odd) had been placed on
full pay. The Noble Lord (Palmerston) had cor-
rectly stated, that of the 1,100 appointed within the
period mentioned, thirty-eight were given to the Mi-
litiry College out of every 2 ; from which the re-
sult was, that one-eighth of the whole number which
had been appointed to first commissions had been
taken from the Military College. Had all those com-
missions been filled up from the Half-pay, it would

'have cost the Public annually, £29,464 less than at,
present; which, at five years purchase, would amount
to £153,568. The Honourable Member concluded
by moving, as an Amendment,
" That it appears by the Returns before the Home, that frsms
the 25th January, 1816, to the 25th January, 1821. there were
1,105 first commissions granted by the Commander-in-Chief. to
the Cavalry and Infantry of the UDC, to persons who had never
before been in the Army ; 597 by purcbaae, and without ;
and t►at there were during that period Cornets and Ensigns on
half-pay, from whom 508 Officers of experience might bamboos
selected in lieu, and a saving of £29,000 per annum thereby
erected ; or a total charge (at 12 years' purchase) of A 348,000;
and that during those five years only 54 Officers from half-pay
were taken to BR up the vacant commissions. notwithstanding
the great number of Cornets and Ensigns on the Half-pay List-"

General GASCOYNE said, that at the end of a
long and sanguinary war, as the last was, particu-
larly towards the close of it, there were. doubtless,
not only a number of Officers to provide for, but also
sons of Officers, and other deserving persons. The
Honourable Gentleman had stated the number of
Officers on half-pay; and he (General Gascoyne) re-
gretted the Honourable Gentleman had not informed
himself who they were: of these there were a great
number who bad no inclination to full pay. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman had recommended that all va-

cant commissions should be filled up from the Half-
pay List. He (General Gascoyne) knew that in one
Regiment, the 54th, within the period mentioned,
six companies had been filled up from the Half-pay
LiA, and the consequence was, that the eldest Lieu-
tenant at the battle of Waterloo, was still the eldest
Lieutenant—(Hear). Was this the kind of promo-
tion the Honourable Gentleman would recommend ?
—(Cheers). Was this justice? He could not state
the exact number, but from 250 to 300 per annum
had retired from full to half-pay, none of whom, of
course, could expect, or probably did wish, to be
placed upon full pay, and who formed part of the
aggregate mentioned by the Honourable Gentleman.
Colonel DAVIES, in explanation, suggested that
half the number only should be taken from the half-
pay. He would ask the Honourable Member for
Liverpool, from the six companies filled up in the
54th Foot, as stated by him, how many Captains had
retired to half-pay, receiving the difference?
General CrASCOYNE.—Not one.

Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN concurred in the assertion
of the gallant Officer (Sir R. Ferguson), that many
Major-Generals had only the half-pay of Lieutenant-
Colonels, or even Majors, to subsist on. Formerly,
if Lieutenant-Colonels of Cavalry had an opportu-
nity of selling their commissions, they might do so:
but now, a Major-General, who had paid £5,000 for
his commission of Lieutenant-Colonel, had no oppor-
tunity to dispose of it ; and therefore would, for the
remainder of his life, be obliged to live on an an-
nuity not equal to the interest of the money his com-
mission had cost him.

, Mr. HUSKISSON admitted the effect of not ap-
pointing persons from private life to first commis-J
sions would most certainly be the saving stated
by the Honourable Gentleman, but contended that
the system recommended by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Aberdeen would put a complete stop to pro-
motion in the Army, and shut out those in private
life altogether. Eighty had been appointed from the
Half-pay List, and 114 from the Military College,
so that there remained only 311 drawn from private
life in the whole period of five years. The number
of Officers who had retired from full pay, receiving
the difference, within that space of time, was 1,762,
and these must refund that difference before they
could expect to be replaced on full pay; they, coa-
-1 seqnently, swelled the number of the aggregate of
Half-pay Officers, yet were ineligible to employment.
Mr. HUME bad understood a promotion to mean
from Ensign to Lieutenant, and so on; and his Mo-
tion, being only to reinstate Officers in their former
ranks, did not imply promotion. He held in his hand
a list of 71 Ensigns, who had been placed on half-
pay the very day they had been appointed. 'Of the
,1597 Commissions which had been sold by order of
his Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief, they
had been sold to enable his Royal Highness to band
the purchase-money over to other individuals; and
he (Mr. Hume) contended that that practice ought
to be prevented in future. He was convinced of the
high honour and integrity of his Royal Highness, yet
he would not consent that that power should remain
in his hands. As 313 Ensigns had been placed on
half-pay the first year of their appointment, and of
these 71 the very hour after it, as he had before men-
tioned, he would close promotion, he confessed, until
every man, able and willing to serve, was employed.
Of the 1200 stated by the gallant Officer, 600 were
able and willing ; and in .three years the half-pay
might be relieved of the amount it now obtained.
Lord PALMERSTON denied that it was the prac-
tice in the Army to give commissions to boys at
school. That system had been entirely abolished by
the present Commander-in-Chief—(Hear, hear). The
Noble Lord then contended that from the Returns it
appeared, that of those who, in the year 1820, had
received Commissions, only nineteen had retired
on half-pay.
The Amendment was then negatived without a
division.—On the main question being put,
Mr. HUME said, that his authority for the asser-
tion which he had made, was neither more nor less
than the Army List. By that it appeared, that not
merely 71, but as many as 116 individuals, after re-
ceiving Commissions,. had been allowed to retire on
half-pal; thus saddling the country with a large and
unnecessary expense.
Lord PALMERSTON explained how that hap-
pened. An Officer was entitled to sell his Commis.
sion or Commissions. Between the period when he
obtained leave to sell them and their actual sale, the
Commissions might, by the reduction of the Regi-
ment, become half-pay Commissions. The indivi-
duals purchasing such Commissions, necessarily,
therefore, became immediately placed on half.pay.
After a few words from Colonel DAVIES and Sir
H. HARDING', the Resolution was agreed to, as were
the other Resolutions contained in the Report.
Lord PALMERSTON stated, that he would to-
morrow bring forward the Votes respecting Disem-
bodied Militia.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, that
Ministers were most anxious to afford the fullest op-
portunity of discussing the Public Estimates; and in
order to effect this, it would, he conceived, be ad-
•isable that public business should, for the remainder
of the Session, commence at half-past four o'clock.
He thouEbt, too, that it,would'be necessary to devote
Wednesdays to the discussion of Questions in the

Cottimittee of Supply. With respect to Thursday
the House was aware that that being the birth.da'
it was usual to adjourn over it.
Mr. HUME suggested, that it would be most con.
.venient to take the Navy Estimates to-morrow, an.
to fix the Ordnance Estimates for Friday.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought it
would be more convenient to take what remained 71*
the Army Estimates tomorrow; to fix the Navy
Estimates for Friday, and to take the Ordnance Esti-
mates on Monday.
After a few words from Colonel DAvtits,
The SPEAKER observed, that the Ordnance Esti.
mates being fixed for Monday, it would be contrary
to the practice of the House to accelerate the discus.
sion of that or any other motion.
It was then understood that the arrangement pro.
posed by the Marquis of Londonderry was agreed to.-
Colonel DAVIES gave notice that he would tomorrow move'
an Address to the Khig, relative to the employment of Officers
on Half-pay.
After a few words from the Loop Anvocave, Lord A. Ila-
sen.voir, and Mr. Hintz, the Scotch Admiralty Court fl was
read a third time and passed.
On the motion of the Loan ADVOCATE, the Report of the
Scotch Court of S.ssion Bill was taken into further cousideratioa.
After a few words from Lord A. 11AMILTOD and Mr. lAm;
the Report was agreed to, and the Bin was ordered to be read
a third time on Friday neat.
On the motion of Mr. limes, several Returns were orderei
with respect to the Royal klarine,Eogineer,and Artillery Service.
The other thders of the Day were then dispoactl of, and the
House adjourned.

THE EVENING STAR.

LONDON.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 2, 1821.
THE FUNDS.

PRICES OP STOCKS THIS DAY AT Mit
Bank Steck 22314-3 per Ct. Reduced 71 y. 1/4
3 per Ct. Cons. 72 A ;,.; —3 per Ct. 81 .; 1/2
4 per Ct. 891/2 3/8-5 perct. Navy 107 A 108 'I
Long Anns. 18 7-1 G 3/s m p 3 per Cent. 701,E
India Stock 23014 India Bonds 41s. 425. pre.
Exchequer Bills 4s. ss. pr.
Commercial Is. dis.— Endorsed 3s. pre.
Cons. fur Account, 721/,

The Army Estimates again became a subject of
discussion in the House of Commons last night, on
the bringing up the Report of the Resolutions already
adopted by the Committee. Mr. BENNETT gave no-
tice, that either himself or an Honourable Fiiend of
his would, on a future day, submit some Resolutions
to the House on the subject of our present Military
System. On the Report of the Resolution relative
to the Officers' Half-pay being made, Mr. BIM
proposed a Resolution expressive of his opinion, that
instead of giving new Commissions as vacancies oc-
curred, they should be filled up from the Half-pay
List, by which he contended that upwards of 1:30,000
annually might be saved to the Public. The Rego-
lution was negatived without a division, and the other
Resolutions were likewise agreed to. Colocel Davis
eve notice, that he should to-day move an humble
Address to his MAJESTY, relative to the employment
of Officers .n Half-pay.

We have received, this forenoon, the Paris Papers
of Saturday and Sunday, and subjoin such articles
of interest as they contain. Not the least curious
piece of intelligence in them is a statement that
Colonel PEPS, the brother of General PCP', with a
small remnant of desperate Carbonari, still bolds
obstinately out in the Civitella del Tronto, and leiooB
all offers of accommodation. The latter part of dm
story nobody will believe.