Star.
London, England, 1816-03-07 00:00:00

cppK.
Mr.

'icon
5:1"
h'
VS Ez •
agrieuit
tioPPlie3
die,H by
r. .
nuance
the coin
stead of
rrtlbt
es ism C
is dot)
seder its
:sisters r4i
pore beh
Country
pie, bad !)
ties. TI .4
skit this I
Gentlem ii
pisers in t
like Gent li
Property 1
4111 enorrna

was oblige]
arse after al
whether it
from this oi
able to per%
and unnecei
won.ai
with 'a
receive
the cc
of pc

never
ported that
tang Day, a
who was Lit
'to send

Ited to g
unabl
dote to pr. 1
.of ‘4.

Mini: t
0

m
the

mcs

j
.
!re

.a
uel

Ger
did

11:40. de 1" Ai whether it i
r,.-- .“--ceePby from this ni
--"rul• }h able to pert,
wads "Ito
ponandrulivionecn..::
hid bee„ c.a. Bay with !ii
:Litliclrd 0,4 t been receive
I"wt wish the terms the cc
' btu& Taal dance of pc
twe'llee. a could never
,7, °eel Pa. ported that
r 6 'heifers tang Bay, a
'milieu:eta% wbn was vat
,le to Pettica, i, him to send
%,:csot adipid obliged to g
if the snidos being unabl,
ti(xts. the 14 dote to pn •s
Hy. Lase? people of w
over, end to k plore Mini: t
ild here nod but every (II
core prefei,ot • Sir GIL:
I 41)PPoieti.e means by w
rliceing Of lig never would
ititiateofrtitaaitligitehdagt
oold reqgl% a sure.
Id be the trq Mr. SW.I
'Tic faith; tins hundred p...
tedemptiad after which
House whether It got signal
redit ? Lea the Property
this fict flee Sir GILB
stem. lot:: had represen
e bait wo lati of the count
reft.e Masa min parts of
13ally as Ilia. Mr.LOCI
ving of a me
it the ceded species of pn
he NiNe., lod total elevatio
ipra tw lati, his property 1
of the Sqik distresses whi
e last hc ai4 property of t
!tilgencealn venture to SS:
114 Mt oi . which it coul
,as abider , defended a m
itsr upon Oa might by the
hat w•rulif is merchants ha,
the Hoy to while it had f
cuurly.j.,z,i able to hear ii
ter was either peat flies bro
isratetit;iriienei*,
lie that rasa Goes in its tra
offente,„ ad Sieving the to
y the coot* would be mcs
t the rrupr !mild remain
?id have bees The I'etitio
to lie on the t
ni:Plutes:ccotoir4l.lllltileftykt,
,'
tatheeMsrttWe. Nobility,E 814
.inacionsly pa. of FAUX, exp
t:ry op all , - Tax would i
Corioui
.. stances. The
I). He , • economy WOW
1,3 L He ' ' The' Petitios
Wiarcestetot Ike that it lie
couklacia+S Mr. LON(
~,z as of' Sher hating g,
kttigtl4l 111 be was of the i
11 i,bil4;ll tr . lialThel Y I that
:1/4; loa;ct,Il T! greatest inj
11 stated Anhough he t
aoontyd W. °Pinion differe
e.___lffttioni yet h
that Sig etierience, an
lie cunt Lem conduct o
"pose the clue!
rayt Ir
adhiJ obt the
J i Use
Exchequer)
tenting ure, but 11
opp),lte; prejudi
6 use belt ..' . ,as to ret
they Woe " ' Dee, under
, tconld never E
•vations el'. • tin much c
Jed the 11. e. . a War Tar,
1. '11,00: '' - felt it due t
w...:::, A ''' he had fort
lenim), vt - irences that ti
yeti, be .. k, and 1
i,erral is ' hire
it Hon. Get
that le" 1 but if he did
der the ' . • find him
not toad • little in
I. • feline
s. opal;
opiDise ' tie h.l.d
'erg's( that the c
aiatied. - the great
I ' re # whir.h
•

..
iettreo iilp and peace, as tlte public mutt kneftehat
in a" new alarm of war it must be revived. He must
ny that moiler, were entitled to the gratitude of the
country, for the way in which they had brought the
ear to such a glorious conclusion, and he 'trusted they
word listen to the voice of their friends and of reasan
end abandon the Tax, which Could Not but be most oppressively felt, in a time of such unexampled distress.
kr. CARTWRIGHT had always considered the
Leone Tax as a war tax; but he thought it neces-
sary now, for winding up the expences of the war,
sod from what he had heard from the Chancellor of
1 lie &deg tier of his intention of giving relief to the
itekeltural interest, he was et opinion it would be
yeah more beneficial to the country than raising the
;piles by a loan, which would affeefthe public cre-
ie, by raising the funds.
Mr. THOMPSON was of opinion that the conci-
liate of the Tax would be a great oppression on
*wintry; while a loan of five or six millions,
in-
jog of depressing. would raise the fends. andsup-
pit the public credit. The issue of-Exchequer Bills,
oldie contrary, would depress the funds. It was
the duty of the. Government to relieve the country
eider its present distress. But the conduct of Mi:
Akers raised suspicions in his mind, that there was
sore behind the curtain than met the ear. Tn.
Cowry. tankers, from their wrsh to relieve the pea..
pk, bad brought themselves into inextricable difficul-
ties. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said,
that this Tax would compel the miser to pay like a
Gentleman. But he could tell him that there mere
Oars in his part of the country who would not pay
like Gentlemene--(4 leegh.)—They would pay no
Property Tax? and would only lend their m iney at
a enormous interest, which the distressed borrower
was obliged to pay. He would put it to the Minis-
ers, after all the distresses the country had undergone,
rather it was not their duty to relieve that country
from this oppressive impost ? They never would be
able to persuade the people that it was not obnoxious
sad unnecessary. He had lately interfered to get a
poor woman and her children sent out to Botany
Bay with her husband, a convict ; and a letter had
been received from this family, expressing in glowing
tears the comforts they had enjoyed ; they had abun-
dance of poukry, pork, and luxuries such as they
wild never obtain here. In a short time it was 're-
ported that he-had orders to send out B
people to o.
Dny NI, and he was actually applied to by a man
olio was lately a respectable small fernier' Y pr.' ino
him to send him and his family out, as he wasnow6
obliged to go from house to house to beg for bnead,
being unable to get work. He mentioned this once
date to prove the general . state of the country,
the.
y
people of which were actually starviisg, and
to, la-
, plot Ministers to take off not only the Property Tax'
but every other rat i hat pressed art the agriculturist.
Sir GILBERT HEATHCOTE justified the
means by which .the Petition had been obtained. He
never would lend his name to any surreptitious mea.
awe. Mr. SWAN said, the Meeting did not contain one
Weed irarsons, and only sixty signed it at first,
after which it was sent round the country for names.
Itgot signatures, because it was
not simplyet against
the Property Tax, but against tax rtion ai°g er.
Sir GILBERT REATHCOTE denied that he
had represented the Petition as containing the voice
of tie county of Rutland, but only of persons in err-
nie parts of Rutlandshire.
Mr.LOCHICART explained his reasons for a
p
ring of a modified tax to be, that it would affect- p
throat. I
tall sop pr
i property which had attained a most unna.
eevaton. The monied man was collectingall
ii
sproperty to lay out in land, and to profit by
tlle
gases which affected the other classes. The funded:
peaty of the kingdom this year would, he would '
to!tete to sq. Purchase double the quantity or land
Ithci it could have bought at any other time.
Mewled a modified tax,- on til
tight by the Chancellor of thee gt. - He
rticandesqisietar.tedll'ahset
madams had paid but a small pertion of the tar,
Wale it had fallen on little traders, who were least
We to bear it. It was U-
rea ties broke through, but scvlbiurheb jaw'
fan in its tramels. A
I
;snag the tenant, and ex
tax properly mod'
which the
held the lick
.
. ified, re-
oneratmg trade entirely,
ltd be most desirable, and to such a princile h
%old, remain a steady friend. p e
The Petition was then received, read, and ordered
ts lie on the table.
th:frt,..7ST_ERN rose to present a Petition from
, _.,l;sebui yi Gentry, and Freeholders of the count
' :_fatt, express
ing, their hope that the Property
stancaatt liosid_ riot . continued, under any etc r i u..
itereThey further hoped,. that- the most rigid
esystite.would be exercised in every department of
Tie. Petition was received and read. On the mo.
it lie on the table
LONG POLE WELLESLEY said,
' given the fullest attention to the subjethct.at
- same opinion he previously entertained, that the continuance of the Taz
would be
. injury that the country could
experience.
diffhe might bfrom e censured for maintaining an
and erent Gentle greater
of much
particularly one at variance with
it Honourable Gentleman for whom
every
feeling of the deepest duty and
yet . he could not, consistently with his nuf..
fug out of that House, do.otherwtse. than
to question. He was fully inclined
believe
the Right Hon- Gentleman (the Chancellor of
--) ~-)had done every thing to modify, the
out he WAS satisfied that these was such a
prejudice against it in the minds of the
as to render it utterly impossible that it could
under any circumstances, the desired effect.
never be continued in time of peace, without
much disagreeable feeling
- Tar, howev, . --- in every quarter.
it due to him iri, It was anobjectionable...—
to say, that be trusted in
had forine.i se
~,. .u an erroneous opinion of the con.
...at might result from the currying of the
and be was not 'without hopes that the
; but it Gent as would not persist in pressing
so did,
.and should ultimately succeed, he
et.._ End hull standing first and foremost,touse
ion mule interest he might possess, to put down
ae2"alf e.gainst it which he Apprehended would
• e 441 atlendsd the • Meeting, and could
i)77;d that the company consisted of those who en.
rote4lAntesi tn_terest and influence in the
"" Pc retest
might be COUSideied as

•
,e h ,it:veil at peat*
ropert% rat, even
;even years of ur.r,
time.
It the whnle
to prove, that by
,me portion of the
rtgaved. in time of
r said, that in no
se Tit to remain
Even should
It Vvi)010 '.as to
year. The Noble
t he (
ash himself fro
to
e had n...rer
e had given e 4
eels said in ti,dg
triumph that bl
tigli in hi, own
the country,
:he Noble Lt at;
Legislature had !ontinue longer
of a definitive
might put hif
the country to
in the words
conrructi.n
s then)?
the Noble Lord
, it would only
Inaiited io Pa.
!!) Rave to the
the
in the. Xtbie
a short time
ly .concluded;
nide to that
:a the country
lotorces. lie
he Chancellor
words " no
had been can.
attended that
not wish the
card. That
weaken, as
set ivetoi Par.
!d the system
the country,
to Petition.
out 4dopted
the tutelars
as' the T.t
But sup.
rer, and tee
have no ef•
e preferalik
) oppose the
ring of the
require a
be the wad
Lath ; this
lemptioti of
Ise whether
t ? It was
tact before
n. It was
it was bold
it that was
y as mock

le conduct
ohle Laid'
the guts-
he Noble
lic mirtd
rice Aids
de of is
'other of
ron thee.
be.
-louse' to
r that of
as either
le was a
ire, mid
country.
rro
e been a
s. He

of a

.

I

the genera! hang. ,Even the tor, Lientenant• of
the County had thought proper 'to come torteard
and give his cordial approbition ot all the Petition
contained
The Petiiinn was the
Lord n ordered to fie on the table;
MIL fON presented a P. 'irises from the
Borough if
.Highans Ferrer', which was received
and read, after a few observations from Mr. Cart-
wright.--Ordered to lie on the table.
Wr. BROUGHAM presented one from the town
of Dundee, complaining of the odious and oppressive
nature of the Tax, and 'conciemnino, the arts prac-
tised to render it palitable, by pi etended mahfica-
tiens. • The Petitioners implored Parliament not to
be taken in by artifice& It also represented the Mi.
Nary Establishment as well as the Tax, as dange-
rous to the Constitution. The Honourable Gentle-
man said he declined entering at any length on the
subject, after the excellent speech of his Honourable
Friend, the Member for Worcester ; but he could
not refrain from reprehending, at everyopportunity,
the language held out by Minister& He wouldi
not,
not,
therefore, advise the Noble Lord an sinis Friends to
think that they could succeed in dupig the country
by the fallacious gloss of the words t, and no longer"
—and whosoever might attemit to insinuate party
motives to those who opposed' the measure, would
find that their efforts would only meet with the con.
tempt they so richl
sheir opponents. y deserved, instead
of disarming
Mr. HOUBLON defended what be bed said on a
former occasion,
as to respecting the Tax. He had now ever modification of the
y hope that he should see it
properly modified, street the wishes aud rests of of all parties, in which case it should have his
roost cordial support.
A long explanatory conversatina ensued between
Lord CASTLEREAGH and Mr. BROUGHAM, respecting
what the former had said in the early part of the
evening, as to the conduct of the late Ministry in
respect to this Tax, who,-by. their sp eche' and its.
tention of continuing it for toarteen years, had eat).
ne?ated the present Government from the charge of
a breach of flitch, its proposing to continue it for oniy
two years after the war.
Mr. HUSKISSON deprecated which these incid-n the loss of time
tal discussion consumed. He
went at much length into a reviews of the conduct
the Opposition, while in power, and
contended th aoft
it was absurd to say Ministers were deba
continuing the T rred from
Tex under an
from
the y circumstances
charge of violating their faith to the coulitry.-...
Had the plan of the late Ministers been adopted, re-
garding this Tax, it would have heen necessary to
continue it !sr three or four years frnni this time, in-
stead of twe. '
Mr. TIERNEY thought that there could be AO
M;)re 6t time for a Member of the douse to state his
sentiments upon this Tax than when he was dischar-
ging his duty tiS his constituents by Presenting a pe-
mean against it. But for his own part, as he had not
at this moment that excuse for treubling the House
he would confiae himself to a very f.:w words. The
Gctitlemen ou his side of the House had on this oc.
casion been accused by the Noble Lerd opposite of
beginning debates upon this tax, of crating delays,
and preventing mere immediate business from being
discussed—when at the same time he made this ,
accusation, the Noble Lord produced a large book!
containing a most complicated plan of finance, on'
which his Lordship and his colleagues put their own)
construction, saying that it was incumbent on their'
oppunents to answer this, to answer that, to at
schedule C, look at scheddie 11, and, in
short 100 k
, to dis-
(Hcuss all the parts of that complex statement
ear, hear, frees the Omositioe.) • But he must say
ifor himself, that he would not .
was
into the partici&
/Jars of a plan of finance width was now eight years
old, as he was eight years older. and could contrive
to amuse himself •bettar than by reading it at this
time. However, the argument which the Noble
i Lord endeavoured to establish by his reference to
the financial plan of 1807, was, that there was a
breach of faith then, and therefore a breach of faith
was justifianle How. But he denied that there was
, any breach of faith at that time t and fie pet himself
1 upon the country to deny if. was not then
i
one single petition presented to there
House complain.,
ling of any breach of faith ; but now petitions came
front every part of the kingdom, complaining that if'
Fa:at/nein continued this tax they would break faith:
with aim country. The oposal of Lord Henry
Petty, when he presented his. lan to the House, was
this, that if it was agreed to, the country would be re.
lieved of certaia tares: It was a fair bargain
it,
to the country. At the time of proposing it,
there was a probability that the war might be finished
in trine or ten months ; but cause
th be was in the
plan the possible calculation that therewar e might
have lasted a notribe,r of years, the Right Honour.
'able the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his friends
chose to take up only this part of the plan, and upon'
it he attempted to found his argument. He was not.
indeed aware that the Right Honourable Gentleman
had plans of finance laid by, to which he might re-
fer as his convenience suited, under tfie different heads
of his own plan, without regard to connectionor, con-
sisteney—(Hear, hear.) He would venture to say,
that there were not in the House three men who un-
derstood what the Right Hononrable Gentleman has
this night been speaking about (a laugh), nor as many
who understood the plan which the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had brought forward in 1813, and
by which the war was carried into the Sinking Fund.
(Hear,heer.) As to the measure now proposed, by
Web the Property Tax was to be continued, the.
country said it would be a breach of faith. But on
Ithis the Noble Lord turned round and said that if it
nnis a breach of faith, another plan had been ap.
proved of by the House under a former 4 Administra-
p
ion which, although the country had been so bra.
1
tally dull as not to understand it, would have been a
much More flagrant breach of faith. The Nob
Lord, however, did not merely confine himself to thisle,
but took occasion at the same time to VOllt a good
deal of abuse against the
or formed Gentlemen who supported
a part of Lord Grenville's Administra-
tion. Now if he were one of the Noble Lord's pc/U-
-tical followers, be certainly would feel rather alarmed'
at the way in which the Commander found it neoes.
sary to carry ore the war. Indeed, the friends of the
Noble Lord seemed to feel little at their ease since
the new mode of tactics had been adopted, for when
the Noble Lord and his colleagues began to throw
glass bottles and stink-Pots, it chewed that they were
reduced to such extremity as to be near a •cdpitala-

•
tion—(Londlavrlter, *awl Hear, hear.) In ohm it
seemed th..t those Honoutable Gentlensen who were
on his side of the House were not to trouble them-
selves to recollect whet had passed, but were merely
to turn to the luminaries
mon the other side of -the
Mr.
House to overcoe all difficulties.
HUSKISNON explained. The discussion of
the plan of 1807 had been commenced b
friends. They had been chaJlenged to examine it
from the other side of the House.
Mr. FITZGERALD.--This Right Han. Gen-
(Ctleman (;slr. Tierney) had accused the Noble Lord
astlereagh) of unfairly cased
the House by the
discustiatis into which he entered, in consequence of
the attacks from the opposite side. This was quite
a new complaint from that quarter. There were
Gentlemen in the House who had heard the Noble
Le-,rd, almost by name. attaeked most bitterly only
a few nights ago, for not having made any reply to
the arguments or rather the invectives, which had'
been soli berality poured forth from the other side of
the House; and now the complaint was, because they
had been satisfactorily answered (Hese, /sear.) if the
Petitions accused Government of being about to break
faith with the people, and if the Right Hon. Gentle.
roan, perhaps for the tenth time, preferred the same
accusation, he was prepared to deny it ; rlte contrary
had already been proved (Rear, hear.) With respect
to the plan of finairce proposed by Lord Henry Petty,
the Right Hot,. Gentleman said, that there had not
been three persons in the House who understood it—.
(Criss e no, tro,)--who now understood that plan.
l'he Hutp.e was certainly obliged to the Right Hon.
Gentleman for his assertion, th,it it did not under-
stand that plan on which a loan had been made, on
which the war had been carried on and the tvar taxes
continued, and by which public credit had been sup-
ported. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had gone much
f:rther when he asserted, that when the plan had
been proposed, the war could not have been ex-
pected to continue above nine months—(ffear.)—
This then was the sagacious expectation entertained
by those who framed this plan, from the expenditure
ot thirty-two millions- -from that system of wise Jibe.
talky which the crisis of Prussia made them afford to
that Power a loan of eighty thousand pounds ?....-
(Hear, hear.)—But he would do them the justice Co
say that this was not their ex the
contem-
plated the continuance of the war for fourteen a
and they expressly stated, that after the termination'
of that period the nation might expect to be. relieved
of eleven millions of taxes; and the statement was.
,then in these words, " and the public would then be
relieved from suaryy the whole of the Property Tax."
(Hear, hear.)—lie now called upon the Right lion.
Gentleman and his friends to support the tax now on
the same principle on which it had been laid on.
Mr. WYNNE stated, that the .time whe
petty Tn the P
ax was to be taken off was expressly fixed fro-
or
the expiration of the present Act.
Mr. BARING thought that the question, lather
w
or not faith hid been broken towards the
people by
any former measure, was not ;tow the question before
the House. It was perfectly competent for Parlia-
ment to pledge the Property Tax ; in fact, it had been
pledged by hfr. Pitt. Nu man doubted that the tax
might not be pledged ; but all that he n•:,-. contended
was that it was not now pledged.—(Hear, hear.)—lt'
was not mortgaged, it was not pledged ; thereto, e
there was now no reason for continuing it. This was
the whole extent of the quesii -n.
The Petition was tieu brought up, read, and or-
dered to lie on the tahle.
Mr BARING postponed till to-morrow week his
motion relative to the late tr insact;ons in Ceylon.
On the Motion of Mr. BA kIN G the following
papers w,re oruered to be laid before the House :
A copy of printed questions put by the Commis-
sioners for the Income lax in the City of London,
add required by them to be answered by such indivi-
duals as appealed against the rate at which they were
called upon to pay the Tax.—Also Copies of any
Correspondence between the Board of Commissioners
for this Tax, and auy mercantile houses in the ents City,
relative to consignm made to them of colonial
produce.

. •
COMUITTES OF SUPPLY.
Mr. CA LCRAFT having moved the Order of the
Day for this Committee ; on the motion that the
Speaker should leave the Chair,
Mr. LAMBTON wished to ask a question relative
to,the Chairman of the Committees of the
Brog }Luse (Mr.
on
den), who had been absent a
former evening
when it was his duty to attend
as well as now—yet
his place had been occupied by another Honourable
Member. The Honourable Gentleman whose ab-
wee he noticed, received a large salary as Chairman
of the Committees of the House, and it wag therefore
his duty to attend. He asked the Noble Lord whether
he could gravely state to the House, that the absence
of the Honourable Member was occasioned by indis-
position ?
This question was not noticed.
The question that the Smu= shonkl now leave
the Chair was then put and carried. The Chair was
then taken by Mr. Osaonza, amid cries from the
Opposition Benches for Mr. &OGDEN.

ARMY ASTIMATE&
Mr. OSBORNE having put the question
.on the
first Resolution, that a number of land forces should
be maintained for the .ensuing yeAr, not elcceedi
176,000 men, -on which the debate bad been ad-
ng
journed--
Mr.
o&T rose. As he had moved the
adjournment f the debate on the former evening, he
considered that he was pledged to take this first op-
portunity of stating his senoments nponthe question.
He thovgbt the establishment proposed was more
extravagant than the cireurnstancesof the country
required, and objectionable, as increasing the influence
of the Crown to an undue extent. In what be had
to offer to the House npon the questiod, be wowed
first address himself to the details of the Estimates
before the House. .Hecould not go along with some
of his Honourable Friends in the extent of the ',lac.
tions which he thought might he made • nor could
he understand those Honourable Gentlemen on the
other side of the House, who said that the present
was not the real Peace Establishnient. as
Treaties could go, we were now in a slate offcorn.
plete security.—[The Houourable.Gentle•uan then
went through the Estimates, discussing each item.
and the following is the abstract of reductions which
he proposed on (including Horse and
Foot In the Household Troops
guards) he proposed a
reduction of about 4090 au= :-.1,n the Dragoons,

•

I
inclnditsg both the eitahNhnient of Great Britain
and Ireliiiid, he thought ~b „it 600,1 men might be
dispensed with This was, in the Home estahled:.
went, a reduction to the extent of 10,000 mn. i s
w the g it riions for depots, arsenals, and dock yard,
he thought that this was a service for whe-h the
Conceived
he
and Artillery were
adequate. He
that 3000 men was quite a
sufficient number for
garrisoning Gibraltar. On the whole of that branch
of the Colonial tstablishment, inelud, ! A ra,
Gibraltar and the lonien ldends, there might be a*
reduction of SOO° men. In the West In
Iblands,
there might be a reduction of between 400 tut'
5000 men. He theught 2000 men, insteed of 3000,
would be quite sufficient at the Cape of Goo,: Hape.
At Ceylon, from the information whice he had.
-been able to obtain, 500 men would be enetteh.--
For the Mauritius, 1400 would be suffieeot. From
the whole 99,000 men, proposed for the hame station
6, e wished 23,000 to be dedurted.v.
and the colonie
In talking of the h
emy in France, he would with to
ask one qirestion. He saw no mention of any Regi.
went of Guards in the list of troops to remain in that
country. although there were at present several regi-
ments .f that corps stationed there [Lord Ca s
reaeh said across elle table that those regi tients of
Guards now ia France were to come home 3 The
Honoutable Gentleman thanked the N b:e 1,-,rd for
the information. Looking at the home establishmeot,
he found SS General °dicers for F.ngland and 22 for
Ireland. Surely there was no necessity for such a
idernumber. The next branch that came under cousf. ,
ation was the public departments. Upon these
;several departments put tegether, a considerable sum
might be saved. He bestowed high praises an the
halt,of the Chelsea and Kilmainham lie-pi-
'tat:, with a view to the benefit of the country, and
the reward of its defenders. As to foreig 11 troops, he
saw no necessity for our having any of them in our
pay, during peace. The Local Militia might be en.
tirely dispensed with, and the expense of the Military
Colleges much reduced. He eulogized the Military
Asylum, but thought that it ought now to be ma-
naged at• less expense. As to what had been said
by an Honourable Friend of his that if the H: use
sent back the estimates, and prayed for new ones,
the very same would be returned to them, he could
not believe that it would be so. But if such a thing
were to be done, the House would know how to sup.
dicate such a disrespect towards a majority of its
Members, and would seed ao Address, preying for
the ditmissat of the Ministers who could advise se
rash a measure.
Mr. RO6E commenled the clear and temperate
mode in which the Honourable Gentlemen bed wade
his observations. He %reel.' net go into the general
subject ; but he would say with referance to the
Home and Irish Establis!;ment, that there never was
a tame in whic!) the presence of a large miluery force
was more necessary to the coliectie 1 of the revenue,
eight millions of reeenue could nct he more ece.onmi.
call), coil:cted than by the expendi:ore til; £140,000
in this manner. Adverting to the Island of Corti+,
he contended that the possession of it %sets essential
to the protection of our trade in the Mediterreneen,
which might otherwise be destroyed with facility. 4
was evideet diet Bonaparte knew the velue of this
place by the lerge garristes which he maintained in
it.. With respect to the West Indi i Islands, it would
be impo'dtic to rely on any assistance, which in the
mot of attack, they might receive irons Catteila.—
Each ought to have a force capable of de!en.fing it.
He completely concurred with the lionotte.ble Gen.
rleman in his observations on ate our pensions allowed to
brave veterans. They did great honour to the
Y ;
county and that honour was ,tot a little increased
by the private subscriptions with which every News.
paper was filled.
Mr. S. WORTLEY complimented the csndour
with which the objections to the various Estimates
had
met b d been made. He trusted that that candour would
jettybe y a correspondent feeling, and that his Ma.
's Goverment would not resist any suggestions,
except those, a compliance with which might hazard
the security of the possessions -that ought to be main.
rained. He would first consider the force required
by the Colonies, because he conceived, that With re-
ferenco to that forcelhe establishment at home ought
to be fixed. la Canada he admitted that the pro-
poposed
to keg force could not be decreased. It was good
licy pon foot such a for,, there, as should
prevent the probable success of an invasion of it from
being a temptation to America to commence a new
war. As to the West India Islands;considering that
no power in Euro had a navy but Great Britain,
whence could weptpect an attack t The considera-
tion was, how much force was required beyond that
necessary for the internal police of thoseklands ? On
this subject, ordinary military authorities had little '
weight. The force necessary to take, and the force
necessary to keep those islands, were two very dd.
ferent questions. He thought the Noble Lord had
overstated the force necessary for the latter purpose.
Independently of the reduction of the etbiemnt,
by the approaching restoration of Martinique and
Guadeloupe, he thought that the numher or troops
proposed to be employed in the West India station
might bereduced by fifteen hundred men, With re-
gard to-the Mauritius and the aye, he did not think
the proposed establishment necess try. First, as to the
Cape, it would be recollected that from its situation
it had once, with a regiment of 600 men. withstood
the attack of from two t three thousand men, who
had been sent against into It could not, therefore, be
supposed Co require the /arge force of :000 men et
•e onsider
the present day. The Maur:tors certainly was a place
bable importance, and some persons thought
that it was even of more importance than the Cape;
but in that place there could be very little danger of
external attack. The only thing to be dreadild was
from the inhabitants, and he -thouOtt that they could
be kept in sufficient subjection by a force less than
that which was now proposed. He should next come
to the Mediterranean : the garrisons in its vicinity
would, from tohtetilrers:fuaotulornp,:isieesrnsioontes
;exbpoutseidtatio
he
did tack than any
,numberdid not think on the whole they required that great
of men which, was now intended. As to Gib-
raker, which might be con•idet ed hi an enemy's court-
try, he did not think that 4040 men would Int too such
But this not:
could n t be exteeded to tne Lilian
Idands, which in case of attack, miefit he easily re.
lieved by.troops from Malta. He neat adverted to
the establishment proposed for Ireland ; and from,the
unhappy situation of that country, he lid not think it
could be considered as too much. The necessity of

to uv
Right Mr. WES'.
the Ez. theNalitity,
~,
Isly Per eftilex, exP,
all it ""Ntid n
con stances The
e m4i loopy 'foul
try sof. *State.
le had The'retitinn
ger, 00 RIO that itaie I
:qUalat Mr. LONG
;reel oar hating Rl',
' heals of the sg
tron lately, that t
Littgreatest injt
of d ugh he m
W *ion ditieren
tPerie, nee, and
6so of a Right
Fave ittetertained e
NhiCe :111600, yet he
1141 nal conduct en'
Po▪ se the questi
er °it the Right
if t kErchequer)
reel litigate, but he
a no foetal prejudice
as to rend
Ike, under an
Cyld never be
• much disc
s. a War Tar, he
felt it due to h
ir be had forme(
NelteS that migl
• , and be
6albt Ron. Gentler
-Min rs

lig,
11.
its
Dr
I. ".
1
I
I
I
I
I
,
. i
• 1
1 i
. ;
~ , i
,/
,1
11
r
!)
1
ii
I:
. ,
. i
i
- .
. .
• i
1
• ~
.
f. 1.
iII 1 I
t f
i
I
1
f
,f. 1
. i
i f