Star.
London, England, 1821-06-01 00:00:00

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Pr - no consideration from doing his duty. The Hon.
sut ant he arought that one for Ireland and one for Gentleman had himself admitted that certain place-
gngLani Would be a most liberal allowance: and he, men ought to have seats in the House ; and he had.
was-of .fivinion, that three should be left to do the therefore, reduced the question from one of principle
business of the Treasury, instead of doing what was to one of degree. In the time of Sir R. Walpole
called the business of the House. The two Secreta-. 200 placemen held seats in that House; a circum-
ries were very useful and intelligent persons ; but as stance quite preposterous; and he would say that there
they were appointed by the Commissioners, and not never was a tirne.when there were fewer placemen in
by.the Crown, they ought, by the Act of Anne, to the House than now. He looked with as much jea-
vacate their seats. The Secretaries for Foreign Af- lousy as any man at the influence of the Crown in
fairs, Colonies, and the Home Department, and the that House. It was begging the question to say,
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, ought that because the majority of the House had carried
to have seats in the House ; but he saw no reason questions which the minority did not approve of,
•why
,the Vice-Treasurer for Ireland should have placemen ought not to sit in the House. The Hon.
a seat in the House. The Placemen played into Gentleman's argument ought to have gone to the
each other's hands, and, of course, they would vote exclusion of all placemen. There must be in the
for each other's salaries. His .object would be, to House of Commons that community of feeling which
leave the President of the East India Board in the is excited by community of office. It did not at all
House ; but he would turn out three Officers of that follow that, because the men in office voted together,
Department. They were of no use in the House, and they necessarily voted wrong, or supported bad meas
he did not believe they were of any use elsewhere— sures. He believed that men of both• parties acted
(Hear, hear).—The House knew no more of the si- from the purest patriotism, and the most conscien-
tuation of the people of India, than it did of the pla- tious motives. As he gave that credit to the Hon.
net Jupiter. But here were the Secretaries in the Gentleman, he hoped he might be allowed to claim
House, doing nothing but swelling majorities ; but a like credit for himself, and those who acted with
nothing at all as to Indian affairs. The next Board him. He had always respected the opinion of the
was the Admiralty. Here he found five Lords, with People; and he had done all in his humble power
£lOOO a-year, a Secretary, and a Comptroller of for their interest ; but it was impossible that Govern-
the Navy. They did nothing but vote against at- ment should not look to the right and the wrong of
tempts at economy in the Navy Estimates, while the every question, withoutbending to every breath which
First Lord was left to transact the whole business of may turn public opinion to every side. The power
the Admiralty. Three-fourths of the junior Mem- of the Crown was never so small, in that House,
bens of this Office took no part in the debates on the and the influence of public opinion was never so
Estimates; but started at the rousing cry of "ques- great as at present.
this f" and voted as Ministers wished, to increase or Colonel DAVIES contended, that if they consi-
decrease the Estimates—(//ear, hear).—He would dered the influence of the Crown throughout every
not object to two Lords of the Admiralty and the Se- part of the country, no man would say it was ever
cretary sitting in the House. In the House were the so great as at present, or that it could not have a
Secretary to the Ordnance, and three others ; now, corresponding influence on that House ; especially in
he would propose to leave only two. The Secretary the election of a majority of its Members, who were
at War he would of course allow to sit in the House; always ready to support the measures of the Govern-
the Judge Advocate, the Paymaster of the Army, ment. He would appeal to the House whether the
the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the majority against Reform in any department were
Vice-President of the Board of Trade; but he saw no not principally made up. of placemen? They should
reason why the Master of' the Mint should sit in the be allowed to defend themselves when attacked ; but
House, nor why it had, for the first time, been made they ought not, out of delicacy, to vote on such
a Cabinet Office—(Hear, hear).—ln his mind, they questions. The only object of his Hon. Friend's
might as well give a seat in the Cabinet to a Corn- motion was to bring about a moderate and proper
missioner of Bankrupts! The Surveyor-General of Reform in the constitution of that House. There
the Woods and Forests should sit in Parliament, but was upwards of £600,000 a-year paid away in pen-
no other. There was the Comptroller of the House- sions and superannuated allowances, which gave the
hold, two Lords of the Bedchamber, and others, Crown an enormous influence. Government should
holding, as our ancestors call it, Livery of the King, not depend upon the support of the House of Com-
who sat in the House. They belonged to the Go- mons, but on the opinion and confidence of the Peo-
vernment of the day, to all Governments. They ple. They ought not to disregard the wishes and the
voted, but gave the House no information. The opinions so frequently expressed by the People.
Lord Advocate should sit in the blouse; but they The House then divided—
had no business to have the Chief Justice of Chester, For the motion -
because the Judges should keep their minds aloof Against it -
from all political squabbles. He saw no occasion
Majetity
for the Irish Masters in Chancery having seats in the POLL AT ELECTIONS IN YORKSHIRE.
Lord MI moved for l
House; for they must sit there to the great injury of _ LTON leave to bringfi in a Bill

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-

the suitors. There are now in Parliimeut twenty-
nine persons whom he wished to turn out of Parlia-
ment, out of fifty-one persons who held places during
the pleasure of Government; and who, like Lord Fife,
might be turned out of office when they displeased
the Government—{hear, /tear).—The Hon. Gentle-
man having gone through his details, proceeded to
recommend the House to pay due regard to the pro-
gress of .public opinion, and to follow the system of''
our ancestors, drat as an abuse arose, a remedy should
be provided; and it was thus new blood and life were
at intervals poured into the decayed Constitution, by
trevivifying and refreshing principle. For the last
half century, the influence of the Crown had rapidly
gained ground on the rights of the People: that in-
fluence was immortal, he might almost say, eternal ;
death had no power over it ! and if, in 1780, it was
voted that the power of the Crown had increased, was
increasing, and ought to be diminished, how much
more necessary was it now to check and to controul
it? On this subject he could not do better than read
the words of a Protest entered on the Journals of the
Lords by certain Peers, among whom was Lord
Bathurst, in 1780, on the rejection of the Pension
Bill, which Protest put the subject in a clear and'
strong point of view. It stated, that they " objected
to the rejection of the Bill, because, strictly speaking,.
all '-fluence over either House of Parliament, except

for the more conveniently taking the PoCat Elec-
tions for Members of Parliament to serve for the
County of York. His object was to allow, in cases
of contested elections, that the Sheriff should keep
an open poll at the Castle at York, while he was hold-
ing other polls in three of the other great towns in
the County. By this means all these, polls might be
closed at one time, and in as short a period as at pre-
sent. He also wished to appoint Vice-Sheriffs, who
should have the same powers to take the returns, and
decide on disputed votes, as the High Sheriff.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would not
oppose this measure now ; but, if this were carried,
it would become a question how far they would be
opening grounds for altering the method of taking
the poll in other places. This would introduce a new
principle into the law of election.
Lord HOTHANI would not oppose the Bill in its
present stage.
Mr. S. WORTLEY thought the measure of di-
viding the County would be the means of dissolving
the ancient connection which had subsisted between
the Gentlemen of the different parts of the County.
After a few words from Mr. BEAtratosT, leave was
given to bring in the Bill, which was done, and it
was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Monday.
_ Colonel DAVIES brought up the Report of the

that which arises from a sense of the duty we owe to
our King and Country, is improper ; and because the
particular influence to be prevented by the Bill is not
only improper, but must in the course of time become
extremely pernicious both to the Crown and People.
_Although the influence appears to be that of the
Crown, it may become that of the Minister, and may
in the end be applied to deceive the Prince, as well
as to oppress the People. A corrupt Minister, in the
distribution of places and pensions, may be able to
create such an influence as may effectually deprive
the Prince of a knowledge of the true sentiments of
his People ; the House of Commons may then adopt
such measures as the whole Nylon dislikes ; and the
King, for the sake of an unworthy servant, may lose
the affections of his subjects, while be imagines he
both deserves and possesses them. Hence these ter-
rible consequences may follow—that the worst pro-
posals for the Public will be the most likely to suc-
ceed, and that the weakest Minister will be the best
supported ; the reason whereof we take to be exceed-
ingly plain, Since the improper influence may be di-
rected to any purpose whatever, and most exerted
when most wanted ; and the same of all bad mea-
sures and weak Ministers."—Whether such were a
prophesy of the present state of things, he (Mr. Ben-
nett) would leave others to determine ; but if the
House die) not reform itself by turning out all useless
Placemen and Pensioners—if it did not remove now
what was thought a scandal in the reign of King
William, it could not retain the confidante, affection,
or respect of the People. The exertions•of an honest
House of Commons were at this time more than ever
necessary to avert or diminish the dangers that threat-
ened The country ; and if he were not successful in
the struggle he had made, during a short political
life, against a system which threatened to overwhelm
himself and his children, at least he had the satisfac-
tion of knowing that he had done his duty—(Hear,
hear).—He now moved for leave to bring in a Bill,
for better securing the Independence of Parliament.
The question having been put from the Chair,
Mr. F. ROBINSON said, it might be an ungra-
cious task to oppose any measure which might come
under the specious pretext of securing the iudepen-
deuce of Parliament ; but he should be deterred by

AUSTRIAN LOAN.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wishfd to know why
Austria denied that she owed seventeen millions to
this country? He wished a copy of the reasons for this.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY objected to
produce it until claims were made upon Austria.
Lord J. 4USSELL said, that if the Austrian Go-
vernment denied the debt, there must be an end to
I'the negotiation. In the early part of the next week,
either he or the Member for Bucks would call the
attention of the House to the subject.
AGRICULTURE.
Lord MILTON wished to know when the Report
from the Agricultural Committee would be laid be-
fore the House? It had formerly been stated, that
the Report would be presented within ten days
after Easter, but though six weeks had elapsed, the
Report had not yet appeared, and it was rumoured
that some time would yet expire before it would
be presented.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that, in
the absence of the Chairman of the Committee, it
was not in his power to give an answer. The Noble
Lord must himself feel how impossible it was for any
individual Member to state when the Report of a
Committee, even on a subject of minor importance,
was likely to be ready.
Lord MILTON.—Then the meaning of this is,
that the whole of the present Session has been whiled
away by his Majesty's Government in doing no-
thing ?—(Hear, hear).
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—Perhaps it
may be said that the Session has been whiled away
by the Noble Lord and his friends !—(Hear).
Mr. TIERNEY.— As the Noble Marquis is a Mem-
ber of the Committee, he can perhaps form a pretty
accurate judgment of the time when the Report will
be ready.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—I can give
no other answer.
Mr. BENNETT.—The Noble Lord (Milton) and
his friends have been endeavouring to save the public
money, and to save human lives—(Hear, hear). Why,
I ask, is no Report yet made on the state of Agricul-
tural Distress—a subject which agitates all classes
from the Land's End to the other extremity of the
kingdom ?—(Hear, hear).
Mr. HUSKISSON.—If the subject is of so grave
a nature as to agitate the country from the Land's
End to its opposite extremity, is not that a very good
reason for not precipitating a Report ?—(Hear, hear).
The Noble Lord thinks that a Report might have
been presented in ten days after Easter, which was
not done: but does he not perceive the danger at.
tendant on taking any hasty steps in a matter of such
importance?—(Hear, hear).
SUPPLY-ORDNANCE.
The Report of the Ordnance was then brought up.
Mr. HUME animadverted on the extravagant ex-
pense incurred in the Ordnance Department, and
moved, that the first grant should be reduced from
1.43,671, to £27.271.

Mr. LOCKHART was incapable of determining
whether the original sum moved, or that proposed
in the .Amendment, was most fitting, because Mi-
nisters had not enabled the House to know what was
the situation of the country. By the influence of
Ministers the House were excluded from the informa-
tion which might have been obtained from the Agri-
cultural Committee. It was not to be supposed that
the same burdens could be borne now that had been
submitted to when those classes who were at present
suffering from the low prices, were enjoying high
prices and were in a state of prosperity. Ministers
ought to look the evil manfully in the face, instead
of endeavouring to conceal or gloss it over. He con-
tended that they ought not to vote a single Estimate
until they -knew what the resources of the country
were by the Report of the Agricultural Committee.
From what he knew of the distress of that interest
from personal observation, the country could not
pay the expenditure they were called upon to grant.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer would perhaps
come forward at a future period and tell them that
the Revenue had been most successfully collected;
but he should consider that it was only so much taken
from the capital and resources of the country.
Mr. RICARDO said, that in justification to his
Majesty's Ministers, and to the Agricultural Com-
mittee, of which he was a mtmber, he felt himself

Committee appointed to examine the evidence as -- --c, "I ""---
called upon to state that no obstacle whatever had
to the adulteration of Clover-seed. The Committee
reported that they had found the adulteration of this been thrown in the way of that Committee by the
former, and that every exertion had been made by the
article to be very prevalent in this country.
to The delay which had occurred arose entirely
to be laid oil the table. from the nature of the business. He firmly believed
ALTERATION IN THE CRINIINAL LAW. - that a Report would be made before the prorogation
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose. of Parliament.
The Marquis of LONDONDEItItY rose to order. Mr. W A RRE considered that the main question
His Lordship stated that the Budget would come on
had not been met by his Majesty's Ministers. There
to-morrow. That question was connected with the
was a plain statement made that the services which
money market and the credit of the country. It cost the country £19,000 some time back, were
would be anomalous to bring forward the Budget
now charged at £lB,OOO. This had not been ac-
until the Ordnance Estimates were reported. counted for, nor noticed by Hon. Members opposite,
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH could not give up
and he was much surprised at their taciturnity upon
his possession of the House. He was opening his
such statements being made to the House.
amendments, when - Mr. R. IVARD said, that he did not rise to notice
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he would
the statements to which the Hon. Member alluded,
take the sense of the House on proceeding on this because he had lately been so often before the House,
Order of the Day. that they must be quite tired of seeing him--(Ilear).
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, he proposed to read
Besides which, the arguments upon this question on
the clauses pro forma, and to have the debate on the
both sides had been repeated night after night. The
third reading, on Monday. His intention was to ex- cause of the increase avas to be found in the addi-
elude the private stock of the Bank of England, and
tional accounts, in the addition of the Half-pay List,
the forging of Country Bank Notes. He proposed
which was sixteen times greater than at the period
to fix forgery at ten years imprisonment and hard with which the comparison was made; the addition
labour ; and uttering at from six to ten years' hard
of the Irish business and of that of the new Colonies,
labour. He did not think this should extend to any together with the new method of keeping the ac-
paper but the circulating paper of the country.— counts. It was in fact to the growth of the whole
The Amendments were then agreed to in a re-Com- service that the additional expense was to be attn.
mittee on the Bill. The Report was received, and
bated. But above all, the arrears.of the accounts
the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday. was the principal cause why the present establish-
Sir J. MACKINTOSH then moved the committal
ments were obliged to be kept up in the offices.
of the Felonies on Rivers' Bill. After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT and Mr.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY must object
R. WARD, the House divided—
to the postponement of public business. For the Amendment - - - 72
Mr. BUXTON wished to know whether anything Against it - - - - 92
could be more important than one of life and death ? Majority for the Resolution - -—2 O
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved as an Several Resolutions were then received and agreed
Amendment, that the Report of the Committee of to without opposition.
I Upon the Resolution for granting i'56,000 for in-
Supply should be received.
Lord MJLTON wished to know whether Minis- cidental expenses,. &c. for the various Barracks, for
tors would undertake to advise the King not to pro- the *Tower,• and the other Garrisons and Forts in
rogue the Parliament beTore these Bills were fully Great Britain and the islands of Guernsey and Jersey.
discussed? I Mr. GIPPS observed, that this was an item upon
Sir J. MACKINTOSH agreed to postpone the - which he moved a reduction of £22,000 in the Com-
' mittee. The House was then promised explanations
Committees on the Bills till Monday.