Star.
London, England, 1817-03-11 00:00:00

NEW SOUTH WALES.

• Mr. BENNET r said, he held in his hand a Peti-
tion from cocain Settlers in Ncw South Wales. He
I:4d taken the trouble to ascertain, as far as possible,
, who they were, and had found that they were not
convicts, bdt petsms who were bona Jie settlers.
The petition complained of partiality in the admi-
riatration of justice, and of unjust and oppressive
.conduct on the part of the Gcerernor. Ile , knew
:nothing of the facts, and could only take them on
die authority of others; and when it was considered
flit the seat of complaint was 9,000 milts distant
front this country, it would be seen that it was ;input-
siblillor him Co take any steps on this_yetition in
len than a year. Amongst other matters, it com-
plained thAt the agriculture of the colony Wil in-
yurea by the great importation of corn allowed from
India, winch Ives sold at a lower price than that of
•
act, own growth. They were also not permitted to
.-- distil In) Cpirits; 'which prevented theta *overturn•
kg their surplus produce to advantage. A prefer
r.nce was given to American vessels, which had pri-
vileges that English vessels *ere denied. The
Honourable Gentleman commented on these and
• other circumstances detailed in the petition, and in
the course of his observations he adverted to the state
of the convicts who had served their time out, and
who•hid no means of returning to their native coun-
try. This was more particularly hard with respect
to the women, who were Obliged to prostitute their
persoarin order to gain a passage home.
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that as the
Honourable Member intended to call the attention of
the House to the petittoi, that would be the proper
time to enter into a discussion upon it. In the mean
time, 'he hoped no unfavourable impression would be
imbibed against that distinguished °Meer at the head
of the colony ; for it was due to him to say, that he
had filled that situation for several years; and be had
been sent out when he (Lord Castlereagh) was at the
bead of the Colonial Department, from the most
sanguine expectation of his being fully -qualified to
_r administer the government of that distant colony.—
! He had no possible objection to the petition lying on
the Table. -
• The petition was then read, and ordered to.
.
lie on the table. It concluded with praying, that
the Colonists might no longer have taxes levied with-
Out the consent of-Parliament, and that they might
be allowed the full benefit of trial by jury.
IRISH BUTTER.

Mr. M. FITZGERALD rose to move for ac-
counts of all Butter exported from Ireland to Fe.
reigu Colonies, and also to England, for the last
fflur yea's. He would take that opportunity to ask
be Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether it was in-
tended to make any increase in the protecting duties
on butter for thole parts of Ireland which were most
concerned in it f The Dutch had withdrawn their
duty of 7s. per cwt. which was now to be deducted
'from the protecting duty we posss, which made the
amount 18s. or IBs. and this wholly defeated the
purpose of protection. He wished to ask the Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite, whether it was his
intention to redeem the pledge which he understood
be had given on this subject last Session?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
was not prepared to give a decided answer;' but; at
resent he telt no disposition to propose any alteration
is the existing duties; because the duty of last year
must have caused the effect of regulating the course
of trade ; anif one year was hardly sufficient time to
enable a just judgment to be formed. lie thought
, that the regulation adopted by the Government of
the Netherlrnds would prove, that any further aug-
. meat:doss at duty would affect our trade.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished his Honourable Friend
SKr him bad stated wl.at course he meant Adopt;
• for the present proceedings aight lead to an antici-
pation of the discussion which would mist out of his
motion seat Thursday, on the Manufacturing bite-.
rests of the country.. He would venture to say, 'boil
the more the subjf.ct of our commercial embaseass-1

Silents, as wells those of the landed and egriculits-
ral interests, were inqoired into, the more it would be
'found that we had gone a great deal too far in
dirlli-
aishing the importation of foreign commodities.
Mr. Alderman ATKINS spoke in favour of the
free ivaportation. We should be met from every port
by prohibitory duties, if we continued to increase
those which were in force. The Honourable Alder-
man instanced particul irly tbe 'disadvantage which
arose from such prohibithns in the sugar trade.
The Motifs was the pat and agreed to.
Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from the
Borough of Arbroath, signed by the Magistrates,
most of the respectable inhabitants, and all the ye-
ters of the place, in all about one thousand eight
hundred persons. The petition prayed for a Reforni
in Parliament, and on this occasion he begged to
notice what had fallen from a Learned Lord on a
former evening (the Lord Advocate of Scotland).
who had described the people of Scotland to be per-
fectly satisfied with the manner in v hieh they were
represented in Parliament. He (Sir R. Ferguson)
was convinced that nine-tenths of the people wished
for some reform or other. The argument used in
favour of the present system seemed to have been
taken from that urged in defence of those most use-
less offices the Lords of the Admiralty. Of them it
was asserted, that they were proper to be kept up,
because they had existed ever since the Revolution;
and in like manner it was said the people of Scotland
ought to be satisfied with the way in which they
were represented in Parliament, because no chalge
had been made since the union of the two countries.
lie, however, did ..ot think it reasonable to es4ect
they could be content, sari' there were not more
than three thousand voters in the nation, and when
they could not but know that Cornwall sent as many
M.:mints to-that House as were thought adequate to
represent all Scotland.
Mr. BRAND rose to confirm what had been ad-
v inced by the gallant General as to the anxiety of
the people of Scotland for a Reform in Parliament...
Acquainted with their rights under the British Con-
stitution, they were nut unequal to express that
, searrnty which they felt sincerely and patriotically
but, at the same time, the petitioners from that part
of the kingdom did not forget what was dire to the
dighity of that House. From these no alarm could
be telt, for those who knew their Tiens is well would
be the last to countenance any proceeding which
might lead to tumult and disorder.
Mr. BOSWELL observed, there was not a single
petition from the Landholders of Scotland in favour
of Parliamentary Reform. In the counties, he be-
lieved, there were few freeholders who were not vo-
ters; and though the roll was small, he believed
there were generally as many voters as landholder'
who were freeholders. The petitions sent up on the
subject he did not l)old to be of much importance.
Many of these did not express the sentiments ofthose
frinn whom they were supposed to come— they were
sent up to London, like children to the Foundling
Hosponl, and left to their tate. From-one little vil-
lage, which did not contain more than fifty inhabi-
tants, a delegate had been sent to meet the other
delegates, lately assembled hi the Metropolis. Had
all parts of Scotland engaged in the cause with the
same ardour. the delegates sent to discuss the ques-
tion of Parliamentary Reform would sot have been
fewer than 140,000.
Lord A. HAMILTON protested against the as-
sertion that there were its any county as many Voted
as landholders. He could not acquiesce in the opi-
nion that the people of Scotland were satisfied with
the manner in which they were at present represented.
The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND
had stated, on a former night, and he would repeat
it now, that the people of Scotland, taking those
classes of the community who were most capable of
forming a judgment on the question, to express the
sense of the people, were nine-tenthsof them opposed
to any change in the representation of that country in
Parliament. He had stated then, that no petition
had been received from the Landed Interest, from
the Corporate Bodies, or from the Communities of
Scotland. He should have considered the sense of
the people to have been expressed in Petitions from
meetings of the Freeholders, from the Commissioners
of Supply. or from the Heriters of any diptrict. That
petitions like those which had been brought under- the
consideration of the House, did not always speak the
sentiments of the people from whom they were sup-
posed to come, might be seen from the petition pre-
sented from Kitkaldy, which had not been signed
by one of the constituents of the gallant General op-
posite, one and all of whom had subscribed to a
-counter-declaration. He had certainly said, that he
believed Scotland to be satisfied with her representa-
tion an Parliament, the Constitution of which had been
settled by a Whig Government at the time of the
Union in 1707. This opinion he'still retained. Since
the Union, in no instance had the electors been ali.
:smashed, but in the counties they had been consi-
des ably increased. The respectable part of the peo.
pie, he believed; would rather have the representation
continue in its proem state, than exchange it for the
boon of universal suffrage.
Mr. DOUGLAS believed muclh apprehension to
be entertained in Scotland on the subject of Parlio-
mentary'Reform. and was satisfied the people wished
for no alteration in their Representation. Iffe ex-
posed the practices of those who seat up Petitions on
this subject, and described one to have been meetly
framed by certain low idle persons, who had after-
wards carried it into a private school, and obta!ned
the signatures of as many,children as could write
their namer.

General FERGUSON replied, that the counter-
declaration signed by his constituents was certainly
against universal suffrage and annual parliaments,
but in nothing else opposed to Reform ; and he fur-
ther stated the substance of it to have been most
painful to Ministers; as it strongly pressed Upon them
the importance of economy.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought some change in the
representation of Scotland ought to be made.
Mr. BROUGHAM tbongl.t it was of some im-
portance that they should know whether these Peti-
tions really same from the people or Scotland, or
whether (as his Learned Friend the Lord Advocate,
of Scotland had stated) nine-tenths of the people were
against any change being made in the representation.
lie thought it rather extraordinary that they should
not only tot wish toe a reform, but that they should be
anxious not to have one. His Learned Friend had
stated, that at the Union that representation had

been given to Scotland by a Whig Government
which had thought fitted to her situation, and
that the number of electors had since increased. The
Learned Lord knew, that in the Boroughs the Alec-
lots could neither be diminished nor increased, and'
it there were mare electors in the counties, it ought
to be remembered, the population of the country was
nearly dotds!e what it woes formerly. He would ask
of those who defended the present representation of
Se° land, if it were not true that a man might there
possess £20,000 a-year, and yet not have rune for
A Member of Parliament? and if it sr:l.e not also
true, that the electors of a Member of Parliament
rroght not have a single acre of land among them ?
In li.ngland the copyhelders were denied a vote.
This he thought an absordi•.y, hut it was corrected
in practice by the number of tune treehol.lers. What
would be thought of the representation of Yorkshire
if there were but three hundred freeholders to seventy
thousand copyholders
Lord BINNING believed many of the Petiri ms
sent up from Scotland to be o! the same family of I
those which had been sent to the manufocturing dis-
tricts by wicked men who wished to. work on the
minds of those who were suffering from the pressure
of the times, and who, to eff:ct this, reptesented Par-
liamentary reform to be the panacea for all the evils
of which they had to complain. He was of opinion
that the Lord Advocate of 6c0,1.1nd was correct in'
assuming that 9-tenths of the well-educated people of
Scotland were favourable to the present system. He
believed, in fact, the cause of Parliamentary Reform
tied among these made very little way indeed, and
the majority were most completely against the ques-
tion.—The Petition was then read, and ordered to
lie on the table.

-----
General FE IiGUSON presented another Petition
on the same subject from the Royal Burgh of Brechin.
Mr. CURWEN took occasion to observe on the
difference between the representation of England and
Scotland, that in Yorkshire there were 60,000 free-
holders, while in all Scotland there were not more
than TOW freehold voters.

The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Anil" Immo ATE&

On the motion Of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply, to which several Papers were referred.
In answer to a question from Mr. BROUGHAM re-
specting the, Commissariat Accounts,
Lord PALMERSTON stated them to be in pro.
gress ; but on the present occasion the Resolution he
should move would onlyise tantamount to a vote on
Account till the subject could begone into more fully.
Sir C. MONCK ifiquired if Ministers had intelli-
gence respecting disturbances in the island of Corfu ?
Lord CAS ILEREAGH said, no information on
this subject had yet been recelved.
Lord PALbtt RSTON whiled not to trespass lon7
on the attention of the House now, as alter Eas,er
the 'alien must again come before them, when it
would be for them to decide on what should be the
amount of the establishments for the re.t of the year.
At present he should only move for a vote of the
Land Forces, to enable hina to bring in the Mutiny
Bill, which, however, he proposed should only take
eff ct horn the 24th M March, and expire on the 24th
of June. He intended but to propwe certain grants,
on which he apprehended there would be little diffe-
rence of opinion; among which were those for the
Hospitals of Chelsea and Kilmainliam, and fcr the
AMP/NOM of the Yeornintry end Volunteers. He'
might, however, be alloWed to stets to the Commit-
tee the general bearing of -the estimate that might
be raised on these Estimates, and shew the difference
between the charges and the numbers of the last and
present year. The charge, as compered with that of
last year,-was less by the suns of £2,163,000. The
numbers voted last year were, including officers and
odn-commissioned officers, 196,000, including thirty
thousand which were to be paid off in the course of
the year. The number to be called for this year wasl
141,000 men. Here,
,it would be seen, was a diffe-
rence of 55,000 men. From these deducting the fo-
reign corps, there would remain a difference, officers
in,cluded, of 39,942; and from these deducting the
officers and non•commissioned officers, and taking
merely rank and file, it would be found there was a
reduction in numbers of 26,176 men. In addition
to these, however, io consequence of the atr.ingeinetiis
entered into with the Allies, a further portion of our
contingent of the Army of Observation in Fiance
was to be withdrawn. to the amount of 4ROO men.
These, added to the 26,176, gave a total of 30,376.
This was the reduction in rank and tile made in our
army serving in England and France. He then
Ilmoved his first Resolution.

Mr. CALCRAFT approved of the mode in which
the Noble Lord had brought the Estimates forward.
Till further information was before the House, he
did not propose to enter into the details, but he wished
to know if the present votes were to be conclusive a.
to numbers ?

Lord PALM ERSTON.—Up to the 24th of June.
Mr. CALCRAFT was glad to hear this stated,
and to find the subject would be open for lut tiler
discussion.

Mr. CI.LWEN hoped the present enormous mili-
tary estabitabment would be reduced, as he comi di red
all the retrenchments that had yet been niach: to be
quite inadequate to die circumstances of the cc-ll:Any.
The following grants were then voted t To tiefkety
the charge of the Land Forces of Great Britain, es
cepting those serving in France and in the EAU 111-
dies, £237,600; to defray the charge of Land Fi,:ces
for Ireland, £4.38,000.

Lord PALMERSTON, in moving a Ga:nt to
provide for the allowances of the Yeomanry, said, it
had been the intention of Government in the lisp
year to reduce the allowances from 4E4, to elt2 per man.
This plan, howevar, had only been carried into cif ci
in the last half year, and the allowances had tilt le:-
fore been at the rate of £3 per man for the year.—
Oa giving the subject further consideration, Goren:-
meet had been of opinion, that to give the Yeomanry
that degree of efficiency which was necessary in the
present state of the country, it was desirable to con-
tinue the alloop.nces.at the last-mentioned rate, and
the estimates had been framed accordingly. Thu.
force had never been objected to, and it any com-
plaints could have been urged against it hesetolore,
their conduct during the last threemonths most have
Aer them at rest. Th•y had been most active in pre-
serving the peace—had ever been vady to obey die
call of the Magistrates, and had deserved the thanks
of the country. he should, thcrefoat, propose a

Vote to cover their allowances for dare, fro gas,
cu:ated at the rate of tiller runds per man, acid a •
a vote of £6OOO to provide tor these
lunteer on any occasion to go on psr"anent duty.
Sir J. C. HIPPISLEY bare testimimy to the gr. • t
services of the Yeomanry, which he had had two or,
poriunititis of witnessing within the last six weetts.
He hoped, %Ten the Secretary of Kyr came tot ear
of all their services in vary us parts i•f the conittry,
that he Mould propose that their allowances strong
be raised to four p :tinds p-r rutin.
Lord CA S f LEREAG H said, the Honourable
Bar,,net had borne very l:nnottrable testimonx
merits of the Ytoman, y, but dortig this he had (..-1
furnished one sample of general aphlause, which their
conduct alwa-is ottained whenever the peace „I ae
country was in danger; but for their tliciynt st :vice'
v itid not feel themselves jit,titim in cr,rn_
tog to Parliament with estimates on so sus...! a .c are
as those submitted to the House, and thereiore is
country really owed to thins those ecoltoniscal
rangements which the Government had been etribltd
to make. With respect to their allowsnces, he (loot:-
ed not the liherality of Pathan:en' %mad do 'may
thing that was necessary to encourage mad :wee 9i:us
in a proper oat? of ainctency ; but as they weir nut
now obliged to ithierve exactly the same discipree
as in time of war, it had 1.1-,r, thought £3 per mats
might ha su:ricient for Eh': service. Government,
however, felt all the importariceof this tnrce, and
were sensilile it could nit he too highly valued.
Sir J. C. HIPPISLEX again expressed a wish
that the allowances of the Icom.i.nry Cavalry raiskt
be raised.

.- •

Mr. CURWEN thought the efficiency if •se Yea.
manry would not be increased by rais•ii;; tt.t it al.
lowances, as they were animated by a fegher motive
than the hope of pay. Hp hoped the Noble Lord
would look to this force as that which w lull futuish
a cheap defence to the country.
Mr. COUR TNE Y spoke in praise of the Yeomanry.
Mr. L. KECK, connected as he had ben tLe
Yeomanry for the last twenty years, was well able to
Appreciate the expense at which it might Le kept up.
He was of opinion that tour pine:as i;:r man v...bant
more than was sufficient ; three pounds he thought
too little, and if only two ponnds were allowed, he
'was positive the cßicers would out be able to keep
the ye:ill-leery regetlw.
Mr. SHIPMAN Wei:, of opinias th !re were ct!er
corps, wh.se a be:ances it &night ht mole necessary to
augmeot, Ilion it w is those of th.: y—ananry.
Mr. W. WYNNE contelided, that the yeomanly
ought not to be expected to m sustain themselves. He
wished their allowance fixed at Al per man.
Mr. CALCItAFT hoped, before a prmatir t
v( to was come to on this subject, that the N:•ble
Lied would consider of the propriety of milkier,
'.uch an arrangement as would satisfy those a ho gave
up their time for the service of the century. He was
'lad to hear those eulogiums on the yeomanry, as be
thought they Would hereafter furnish him with co-
answerab!e arguments in favour of a further
reduc-
tion of the army. '

Mr. BA RING cloeibted if the yeomanry wou:d be
glad? noire etliei.qtt by ir.,:real..ing their allowaricet.
In PAT there were forty thonsand National Guards,
well clo:hed, and in every reTect a ttsi.st
body at men. who d... 1 wit cast the c•Juniry sixtieme;:,
And wh,n,tt pride i. wai to rece.ce no
Mr. RODINSiON ,aid the allewanc?s acre itrit.
and could not be eonsidere,l as lny th,eg Ike
milikerittion for the services of the Ye...manly. S. :
an imperfect reward could not degrade them, :;!
itwas too much to expect that farmers ane..!.l:
keepers should bear all the expense ut their etitni,-
ments themselves.

A motion for a grant of £37,000 for defraying the
expenses of the Volunteers was then agreed to; as was
a grant of W 15,800 for Ireland for tote same service.
The following sums were voted :
To Betray the Charges of Pensioners is Chelsea
Hospital
To ditto to Kiltuaii,hant - -
To ditto of Out Pensioners of Chelsea flosEital :91.014
to ditto of KLassitdiam - • - -
The 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, tit House would secolltet, that r2544"1.W.MA
of francs bad been appropriated by the Ati:cs to the
Briiisle and Prussian armies, for their services at Wr•
terloo, over anJ above their respective shares sf
corstrihotieass esected from France. Seine
ties had inter; el,,ed, as this sum e.:tati Ii 't
conveniently urnisbed by the time at which it w..;
desirabla that it should' be dist:grated, a hope htd
beer, field out that .14 grant in advance should be pl.:.
posed to Parliament. The regularity v:idi %vivid tire
Freed* Government had made its payments a-I
that a considerable past of the awn had bera
laid b), and die sum of ti:Z/15,04.0 sterling had
already expended. The advance of £111,06)0,000 sc-is
however necessary, for :he reasons he bad fiveer
but he had the happines to say, the British '
Chest aas SC) furnished, tiost on further pre e ,si,.o
would he r.cpiired for the troops in France be tevrci.
this :ind the eihd of the year. The sum :drat roe !
would be repaid in that time, it there occurred
failure In payment of the French contebutionr,
was nut at ali to be elpec ted. from the punceuaii r
hitherto observed ; more especially as the wit:st!'tttt.
ing id 3i1,000 troops howl the Army Cr.s?..vetite.,
u.eld so greatly diminish the amount of t: e
ineuts Fiance would have to make. Linder d,Lis.:
ciicumst owes, the grant he should propose meat lie
coih•icle reel AS a mere temporary grant. fie t. ,
mom, tor a grant of 5e1,000,000 to be advance,: L.,
the Al toies who !ought at Waterloo.
In answer to a question from Mr. Comers,
CHANCELLOR tf the EXCHEQUER said, ;be wit, le es-
pmse of our army in France was to be ihet by ire.
a,lorlas.ces and contributiens furnished by the It( 'AC!.
Government.
Air. 13ARING understood the Right Pol- C't•-
tkßiall to Intani. that Irg Op7ASC6 cot t.rr .y r-•)
partly true out 01 the stisid7. He tt,,:tc
say a few words or. clic sub;rier of Lin oriirat.oli es.ihr
which he had been connected, and which lad c t•
tainly been noticed swire out ef that House than In
it. What had been sail would have tittle tif..et en
:aim as lie aas rather in the habit of erruttlt 'us
own understanding to deteririne what it wa4 t.ii lay
to do, than of regulating his conduct by the 1,740"
dices of •others. • In the present inaance there bat
been much misapprehension as tr the ettent to W. i3:l
he had been engaged in the tranaction elbiele4 !0.•
He bad unquestionably put himself forwarel
other individuals (Centl;:i:en of Holland, Kt'*

P tilt%) to advance such a loan to Or?
)etnnient as was necessary to enable it t
termer ts. Doing this, he had first con-
was his duty to his country. Though,
it, his conduct was regulated by views of
!vs. jet in every thing that related to po-
Care was to Mout tin bow his country
etetitsy any transaction in which he was
_. In the present Case he was snot there
~d been a British object in view, and the interest of
e station h td peen Indeed to, he believed, more than
cuurnon in such pursuits. Though not in that
t.lause, ;n other pl•ees, many attacks had been made
to ors conduct. Thcise, he believed, arose out of
view m•sapprehension, as the share he had had in the
:lair in questinn was very incensiderable. This would
guilv be believed when he stated the operation, so far
as any one in this country was concerned, to be corn-
tlett•ly closed. Supposing that nu British object had
Dcr ir eiew,andeonsideringthe transaction to have
iv'. ,:iy of a commercial character, he would still
eertz.n.!, that r.o injury could I,e sustained by this coun-
try. A Noble Person wh was in the habit of giving
use pe).:c instruction every sew months an pamphlets
w:.ich he sent forth to the world, had nt.ticed this
transaction, in doing which he had taken soma libcr.
ties with his ( Mr. Baring's) name : but the princi-
ples he had advanced wet,: in themselves so absurd
that he did not think it necessary to answer them.
The sum of his arguments was this, that no mer-
chant was justified in sending money out of the coun-
try. it this were admitted to be true, what, in many
hut Well could the merchant do? And what danger
srgi ta be apprehended, be might ask, from the coo-
duct thus condemned ? When the merchant sent
inlay out of the country, it must always be with
the certainty, with the Ilppe at least, that it would
return and bring more with it. Till no he (Mr.
biting) had never heard that the merchant had not
a right t, send foreign money out of the country.—
The argument, hewever, which had been used
spina him was this—that as mechanics were prohi-
bited by law from sending their tools out of the
cowry, so the merchant whb carried on his business
IT means of money, had no right to send foreign ca-
pital abroad. This was really so ridiculous that he
was ashamed to trouble the Committee with any fur-
ther explanation on the subject. He would only say,
ao harm could result from the transaction to this
caentry. Had it beep otherwise, he would have had
astbmg to do with it. In what had taken place, to
promote British interests had been always his object.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
sod, it was perfectly true, that the expenses of out
army in France, as they exceeded those of the Con-
tinental armies, were partly met nut of the indemnity
paid to the Allies by France. He was happy to say,
the ailuwances and contributions paid in the first two
years of peace, would not only cover the expenses
tit out ainy in France, but make good the sum it
was thought right to advance. He begged to bear
witness to the upright conduct of the Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Baring) in the transaction to whieli
he had found it necessary to advert. He had stated
his intentions to Ministers in the most honourable and
candid manner, offering at the same time to Tell&
quish all concern in the business, it the operation was
objected to by them. They had not thought it their
duty to start any objection ; they had not seen that
any injury could be expected to resolt from it, but
el the contra, y, as it went to enable France to fulfil
I:cr engagements with the'Ailies, they held it bad a
tendency to promote the general good.
Sir C. MONCK expressed satisfaction at bearing
the whole expense of our army was borne by France,
Lut at the same time considered its being stational.
e7tre an injury to England, as the Officers with it
racially drew their wealth out of this country to
s;1-nd it there.
After a few words from Mr. CALORAFT and the
Cfmcsumn of the ExcatEQueu, the Resolution for
Valuing £/,000.000 to be distributed to the English
and Prussian armies, .was agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
then proposed that a sum of 412,152,000 be granted
to discharge outstanding Exchequer Bills as yeton-
provided h,r.

- Mr. PONSONBY wished to know what the Right
Honourable Gentleman would consider the Boating
debt of the country to be after thepresent vote ?
The CHANCELLOR the EXCHEQUER
statel that its amount would remain as at now atood,
between forty and fifty millions.
Mr. PONSONBY contended, that the total of the
unfunded Debt of the United Kingdom, even after
the present vote, would amount to 51 millions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that it might amount to a little more than fifty
tnilions, but that it nad not incurred any depreciation,
:.)d that by the reduction of interest on the Exchequer
kil;s, the Government had effected a saving of
o:,.;itli3O(X) in the course of the year.-
Mr. BARING inquired whether any step had been
1.,11 p:td to place the Irish currency on the same Max-
i:l4 4 the Engli,h
the CHA‘ACELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stid, that a measure was in preparation to effect that
ovct.

Alre PONSONBY asserted, that as far as taxation
sent, it WAS already accomplished, for that all the
Irish taxes were paid in English money.
The Resolution was then agteed to, as well as the
fohowing_
For other Exchequer Bias ....CI 010.900
For the [merest on Exchequer Bills-- .. 1,500,001
And for Amanties en the Loya:ty L0an..... 31,029
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered
VI be received io-morrow.

SEDITIOUS ASSEMBLIES.
On the Order of the Day for the further conside-
TajOII of the Report of the Seditious Assemblies Bill,
The SOLICI'FOR•GENERAL moved, that the
4ePOlt be re-committed, which was agreed to, and
trte House resolved into a Committee.
Several verbal Amendments were proposed, and
reed to without discussion.
On the dense inflicting the punishment of destb on
persons as do not disperse within one hoar after
Doing ordered so to do by a Magistrate,.
Mr. GURNEY rose, an 4 objected to the infliction
so great a penalty as death. He considered the.
t:'ase much too severe, and thought that it was on
lz•tt account calculated to excite much disttilifie-
.—n• He recommended the -Substitutioo of some
`zher punisiimt •
4.1.10 ii.N E 1-GENEKAL wished P 3 retninsel
t t ems of the Uject ut 'he Dill, and more pant-

• .
cUl:trly the clause in iteestion. That object was 10
prevent the meeting Of tumultuous assembliei, surf
to diiperse them if they should have met. The
Honourable Gentleman who spoke last was afraid
that the clause. uas of a nature to excite discontent
against the Legislature; but there had been a long
:f xperience of a law of a similar description, and that
exper;ence had demonstrated that no such effect was
to be apprehended. The clans,: would operate as a
preventive, and it theretnre was not likely that the
actual infliction of the punishment it enacted would
ever take place. There hid been no instance of any
punishment under the act similar to the present Bill,
which passed at a former crisis, nor under the Riot
Act. The appr.hension of punishment had prevented
the offence; but how could it be expected that Sedi-
tious Meetings could be dispersed, if, after an hour's
notice given by a Magistrate, it should still he vie-
, cessary to enter int ) pat lance with the inultitu.le ? ft
was necessary to have a definite penalty specified, in
order that the parties might know what would he the
conseqn.nice of their continuing kept tog..th:r ; and
the. severity of the punishment wuuli be a secatity
against the violation of the law.
Sir JAMES MrsClUNTosli considered the ar-
gumeut of the Learned Gentlemin as one of a very
singular kind. He had insisted on the necessity of
punishing persons t,ffeeding against the law, as if his
Hon. Friend, who had opposed the clause, had main.
tained that there should be no punishment. The
question was, whether the punishment of death was
the proper punishment for the offence ? The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had stated, that there had
been no instance of punishment under the similar I
clauses in the Riot Act, and the Act of 1795, which,
he believed, was the fact ; but if there had been no
cases of punishment, the reason to he inferred was •
that there had been no occurrence of the' offence.
.The multiplication of unnecessary statutes, and the
enacting of penalties too severe in proportion to the
offence, only tended to we..ken and degrade the au-
thority of the law. The order of the Magistrate to
disperse, it was supposed, might be disobeyed. That
disobedience would either bring the parties of le.ding
Zvithin-the Riot Act. or it would not. If it brought
them within it, then this clause was useless t for
what necessity could there be for loading the statute
bank with sanguinary enactments t If it did not
bring the parties within the Riot Act, then this Bill
went farther than that Act, by punishing a less
,offence with equal severity. He would now ask the
Committee whether they were prepared to enact a law
more severe than the most sanguinary of the crimi-
nal code of this or of any other country, namely, the
Riot Act ?—a law which nothing could excuse but
the peculiarly difficult circumstances of the period in
which it was passed. He must again ask, of what
use the clause could be if it enacted nothing mote than
was already enacted by the Riot Acil and unless he
received a satisfactory answer, would propose to
' leave out the words —" inflicting death without Be-
neht of Clergy," in order to substitute the punish-
' meet of transportation for seven years.
The. SOLICITOR-GENERAL saw no reason
for the Amendment suggested by the Honourable
Gentleman. Many laws were enacted ;newly with
a view to the prevention of climes, and it was there-
fore
very inconsistent to contend that such laws were
useless because no punishments had been inflicted
under them. That circumstance rather proved that
they had answered the purpose fur which they were
enacted. On this principle it might be said, that
the .Riot Act was ntintoamary ; fur he did gat my&
lest otie instance of this trial of any persons for not
dispersing ;Tour after proclamation under
the Riot Act had been made ; and yet no statute had
been of greater advantage to the country than that bi
Act. The Honourable Baronet had observed, that!
the clause either came within the Riot Act, or did
more than that Act. It certainly did do more thau the 1
Riot Act in • the way 'of preventing disorder. Ac-
cording to the Riot Act, persons must not only be
assembled, but must be assembled riotously and tu-
multuously. The object of the present Bill was to
prevent assembling at all, except under the sanction
of lawful functionaries, as he might call the Magis-
trews, who were to superintend such meetings; and
the clause in question gives to Magistrates authority
to disperse meetings so assembled, though there *say
be no actual riot or tumult. As the object of the
Bill is to prevent riot, it must be regarded as wise
and proper to put the offence contemplated in the
clause on the same footing as resistance to a procla.
mation under the Riot Act. The House too, would
bear in mind that this Bill was nut proposed to be
permanent, like the Riot Act, but to be passed to
remedy a temporary evil—(Hear, hear, hear).—.
The offence was not one for which any reasonable
excuse could be offered. It was not one committed
on a sudden impulse of passion or inadvertently. The
penalty did not attach, unless the persons assembled
should continue together one !lour after proclamation
made by a Magistrate for their dispersion. New, un-
less assembled for some other purpose than passing
resolutions, or agreeing to Petitions, it was not pro-
bable that any individuals would resist the order to
disperse. This was the effect he anticipated, and
consequently that the punishment enacted never would
be inflicted. -He was far from wishing for sangui-
nary laws, but he was convinced that the effect of the
present Act would be greatly weakened were any al-
teration to be =Adele the ciartse.under consideration.
Many persons, hr was persuaded, would risk the
staying together, if the punishment were only want-
portaticio, who would not venture to resist the lair if
they knew that such resistance made them liable to
siffer death.

Mr BAR.CLAY•wished to know whether it was',
meant to. assert, that when proclamation bad been
made under the. Lot Act, it had always happened
that the persons assembled dispersed in due time, and
returned to their homes ? For bit part-be believed the
contrary was very frequently the case. There having
been no punishment under the law, was no proof the
offence had not occurrod..lo his opinion; the severity
of the punishment had prevented prosecutions.
Mr. W. SMITH had been of opinion, that the Ho- ,
noorable and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor Ge.
neral) was one of the List men in the country whin
would lend his .upport to the enactment of sangui-
nary laws ; and gave him full credit for the huma-
nity of hi. intention in that respect. He believed,
however, that on the present occasion the Honourable
and Idearned Gentleman had suffered his understand-
ing to be misled. Did he consider where his argu-
ment would stop t if doilibtratiost wets to be the

_.• - . .
criterion for iiitte:rng the petrel( y pi opLsed in the pie.
sent case, what other clime deliberately Committed
ought not to be punished with death? The Leaesied
Gentleman was of opinion, that if the Atneudintert
which had been suggested were adopted, the persons
improperly assembled would persist in staying Loge.
ther ; but he, on the contrary, thought their obe-
dience would be better secured by their conviction that
punishment would follow their offence : fur, as had
been well observed by the Honetireble Gentlem in
who spoke list, the punishment of death, enacted by
the riot act, appeared so severe ir. comparison with
the crime, teat the le w had I..itier been enforced. Hed
torture remained the law of this country, every ar-
gument w:iich had been used by the Learned G:•n-
tlemen in support of this clause would apply wilt
equal force in favour of that horrible practice._.
s's pose a number of persons assembled together,
deliberating without any disorder, should, on re-
ceiving notice from a Magistrate to disperse, vent.ire
to coetitiue their deliberation, or to debate whether
they (night in tartly to disperse, and it sh )01,1 happen
that they remained together some moments linger
than the limited hour, every man so assembled
vouk!, in treat case, be liable to the punishment of
death. This was a case which might happen. There
was a great distinction with respect to the Riot Adct.
—ln the case of Proclamation miler it, there was
an actissi breach of the peace ; arid if resistance took
pi tee, immesh ate blood4hed would follow ; but this
was not the case under the present Bill. He did not
state this with a view of defending the Riot Act,
but to shew the difference between the two measure..
He hoped his Honourable Friend would move the
amendment he had suggested.
Sir JOHN COX I-lIPPISLEY saii, it was now
a century since the Riot Act had passed, and it had
proved of the greatest advantage to the State. He
had recently had personal experience of its utility.
In the course of last week he had felt it to be his
duty to read the Riot Act to an assembly, which,
though not actually riotous and tumultuous at the
time, had riotous objects in view. Had the Act been
less-penal, he was convinced he should not have had
sufficient influence to cause the dispersion of that
assembly. He was perfectly confident, that it was
only by his stating to the people the high penalties to
which they would expose themselves if they continued
together, that he prevailed on them to separate. If
the punishment under the Riot Act had been traits,
portation, he certainly should not have succeeded.—
With regard to the Jitftrence between the present
measure and the Riat Act, the important difference
with regard to the number allowed to continue toge-
ther had not been noticed. Under the Riot Act the
number was twelve, but by the Bill now under con-
sideration it was fifty. He would vote for the higher
penalty, as he coPeidered it necessary for the peace
of the country.
Mr. WYNN contended, that on every analogy to
the laws of England, and to general justice, the leo
malty for not dispersing ought to be the hit;ileLt In-
flicted by the law ; for the offence was actual rebel.
lion. He declared lie would vote for the clause as it
stood, bring convinced that the punishment was not
disproportionate to the crime.
, Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH agreed with his
Honourable Friend, that such a punishment could
only be justified on the ground of it 4 being ..pplied
to rebellion ; but he contended that the idietice was
not one of that description. When the pnas.hroetst
of death was inflicted under the. Riot Act, it was far
actual violence and resistance; but here it was pro.
posed to enact the same punishment for the mere bon•
compliance with the order of a magistrate. A cen-
tury ago, it had been thought fit to punish resiitince .
to a magistrate with death; but he called upon any
Honourable Gentleman to shew an instance in which
the law of England had made non-compliance with
the order of a magistrate au offence punishable with
ieatli. He now moved that the words " shall suffer
death as is case of felony, without benefit of clergy,"
should be left out, and the words, ~ shall suffer trims-
portetion for the term of seven years," inserted.
Lord CASTLE RE AG fil row° oppose the amend.
meat; Many Gentlemen bad appeared disposed to
seize upon the present opportunity to discuss the ab.
strati question of crimes and punishments, but into
that branch of the subject he should not enter. With
regard to the Riot Act, to which Honourable Gentle-
men had so strongly objected, he was of opinion with
his Honourable' Friend near him, that there was not
on the Statute Book a law which had been more ad-
vantageous to the country. The question was not,
whether the principle of the Riot Act was applied to
this Bk 11? but whether the measure WAS necessary ?.._
There was this difference between the two laws, that
the Riot Act was applicable to tumult which heti
commenced, or was intended; whereas the present
bill was ietended, not merely to stop the incipient
but apprehended riot. The Honourable Batenet (.•iir
J. C. Hippisley,) bad *fated to the House, that he
had dispersed persons because * knew they had as-
sembled tor, riotous purpose. The operation of the
Riot Act was not, therefore, merely confined to ac-
ttiel riot. He would contend, that whenever resis.
lance ,should be made to the order of a Magistrate
under this Act, there would be such an oppositiou
to the law as constituted rebellion ; and he would ask,
whether it was more prudent, by mitigating the pe•
natty, to invite the people to-meke resistance, or to
arias the Magistrates with that precautionary autho-
rity which would enable them to preserve the peace?
If the two laws, the Riot Act and the present Bill.
were allowed to go into concurrent operation with
different penalties, the result of that operation would
be the greatest inconsistencies. Suppose in the same
field oue Magistrate should order the peo,de to dis-
perse, under pain of transportation, and in another
part of the same field the Riot Act should be read, it
would be impossible for the persons assembled to
know to which penalty they were exposing them-
selves. He could conceive nothing worse than to
leave any doubt on this subject, and therefore thought
that the House ought to be guided by the principle!
of the Riot Act. He was confident that the amend- I
ment would not be adopted unless it were determined i
that there should be a complete doubt raised as ti the
situation in which persons assembled in opposition to
the Act should stand.
•Mr. JOHN SMITH did not rectllect the riots in 1
178 u, but had heard much of the burning of houses,
' mad the other mischiefs they occasioned. He telt in- t
dined to think, that the punishment of transportation
had observed, in cases where the punishment of death'
WAS CA44lllitted to deter rioters from offences. lie

• • • ••
ft" • •
W4c enacte of an o_Lltem calbpintive.y L.p_t,
it bcession••J dilictilties its the w.ty
punishing ;so offender. Ha khew of nu such cap;t3l
sentence havicg. in ruck cases: been citr;esi
execution ; be vi.t,:tl:ercloge ititn:fly to the oh/re:ions
vulie clause.

Sir R. WILLIAM said a few words in support
of the clause.

TIeAT'i'ORNEV-GENERAL said he wouLl
trespass oaly fora few moments. He t:,:itight the
arguments for the objection vague. H:s armed
Fl lead had spoken of tarn: non-obedience to t4.1111w;
but what was the diAitiction to be drawn beFt+V
nure oheillencc to tlie law, and a resista,.ce to ;V?
It was to be particulariy,c,.roids•red how ti.e dause
applied to meetings critiitl.ily assen•bled illegally.
acid not c flied by the notk au.t signames of 'even
fontseitoldurs. Magistrates were as hosiced to
Jiiparse an trapraper meeting ; but was the meeting
to be allowed to.dount and debate on tie legal power
of the blagiwacy. to oppose the Legislature, and to
remain in deli4eration as to what they thought St its
do ? He had a high 11p:oion of his Learned Fr;endss
legal knowledge ; but he thought there would be
great (aver is people were to entertain doubts rar...
spectineo law.

Mr. W. SMlni thought transportation still:lent.
Mr. WYNN regretted that riots were not sooner
stopped, but it was the Rio: Act that enabled the mi-
litary to enter and iniertete. It a meeting were ille4
gal in its origin, the non-compliance of the people
with the Magistrate's re:pie.t and orders JS a V/O.
lition of the laws. To remain together when ordered
legally to disperse WAS resistance and rebeliien against
the law.

Se' jeant BEST observed, that, according to the
Riot Act, a riotous disposition should :appear to the
Magistracy ; but if the mob did not disperse within
the prescribed time, punishment might foilow. That
had lasted since George 1. about a century. Why
should the cimtre for capital puniam nt be deemed
unnecessary when it was enacted, not only by that
Act, but by a subsequent one ? It had i.een found,
by experience, that dangerous crimes were prevented
by holding out the threats of the severest puti;sliment;
Mr. SMITH thought the term of transimrtation
was not light When two sorts of punrslimelit were
proposed, both of them apparently effectual for the
object, he should prefer the le tst severe 6ne.
The Gallery was cleared, and a division took place
on Sir J. Mackintosh's amendment—Noes 7i)_Ayes
t.'6—Majority against it 44.--0 a the re.opening of
the G4lterr,

Sir J. MACKIN rosu was speaking on other
parts of the Bill, and particularly as to a clause re-
specting the notices of meetings by five or -seven ine,
elividual housekeepers. To various parts.of the Bill, .
concerning the power of Magistrates, he did nut
ject ; especially when persons were attempting to ex-
cite resistance or'disaffection to his Maksty, of his
Aiijetty's Government, strictly speaking. Ail such
Orton', and all writings of that :name, he considered
inexcusable; because they tended most dangerously
to transfer the constitutioual responsibility ut the Mi-
nisters to the Sovereign himself. He with all
eatirieat writers on the liberty of the press, that pt.:-
vide security should be attended to, without- which
s.a.iety would scarcely be toltrab:e. He had a strong
objection to one clause which spoke of hatred to the
Government, and not simply id the King's Gm•arts-
-meat, and the constitution of the realm. The an,
thors of the Bill surely could net mean to app:y the
weed ‘. CrAternment" in a seine in which it sathr be
contused with the Administration of the slay, the li-
betty of canvassing whose conduct was the s icred
bit th-r ight of the people. The word" Government"
in the way it was inserted in the Act, he considered
either mischievous or useless. Was it to be distin-
guished Irons the words a Constitution," or " GU.
ferment by KiNg, L.rds, and Cogunions," which
last mode of expression he valued deeply ? The word
" Constitution" was supicient. In the present Ste.
sion many petitions had been received ag.iitist the
acts both of the Ministers and of that How
there appeared nu studied insult in them. 11
therefore, to let the clause have a full art I.
to leave the Magistrates an imploper discrete
therefore moved, that the word " goose
or used, And the word a Government" omit'
•

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected
as Government ws a word constantly used
indictments for sedition and treason, and insist
and one which every lawyer n 11 understood,
iirgo therefore, as a lawyer, he would say,
should prefer the word Government" to it
1, Constitution." His Learned Ft iend did in
lice to Ministry when be supposeJ that tbei
not to COiiilLbe Government with Administc
‘0 Government" was clear legal language.
Mr. WYNN observed, that by Governs
must be undei:anod the Gi,irei 'intent by
and Commons, as lb established by law.
be advisable that a Magistrate should reser
omit), a r,•gular legal notice of a meeting I
was held, af,ich would prevent wank impair?
add, it the Magistrates acted wrongly, the)
lib apprehended, be li,llle to an►wer lox st. del
Omit of King's Ben.:11,
Sir IA MES MACK INTOSH said, he un(
sutliciently the legal meaning of the word
mcnt," as applied to cases of treason and n
but It more con.ideration, as apt
merely seditious .words. To avoid errors, it la,
to speak of the Constitution of Government,
King's Obit; rnmnit.
Mr. W. SMITH made two objections
clause :—First, he thought it improper to
large a discretion in cote Magistrate alone s at
coadly, he conceived tha;., from the latitoch

---
pres,ton adopted in this cl.tuse, a Alagistratt
think himself Authorised to disperse a Mectini
discussiot.s were perfectly constitutiodal.

illustrate his Incafling by rtferring to a Repo)
in another place : that Report spoke of some
called Union Clubs, and described theps as
ing t►,e object of Parliamentary Refotm; but
chow. words, understanding, Universal Sulfriq
Parliaments—prokcts wjtieb evident
valve, not any qualified or partial change, but
subversion or die Constitution." Nf
(Mt. W. Smith) had no hesitation in saying, t
tooked upon all such schemes as wild and .inj
cable; and even if they "'ere practicable, he
consider them as itijutici.,us alterations, and

twin : but at the scue tiro: Le. did not hold

bliULd tD tow to thy ;;;Jst who slid

. t-1f,..5. and P
!rah Ge•ti
. Nifil its e gal
.;feted w at I
t as a merchant
general int ere,
. pies kis Ora I
r /mad be Ares
~ teraaTJ• I
• s k...... • RI

piust the
use, when
le wished,
t, but nit
-twit. lie
istitution,"
itted.
ed to this,
e4l iu all -
.urrection,
d. Speak-
that he
the word
ohly jus-
ley meant
.tratiun.—
riiment, it
'Ards,
It would
c: ire end
g before is
ruprieties:
ey would,
before the
•
auderbtood
'• Go►ern-
rebellion ;
rpplied to
W 46 better
, or di the
is to Ole
) lodge so
and, er-
ode cf ex-
am miett
ng wttoee
rie wou!J
lon made
e Societies
"Pestles:-
et, seder
'sage, and
Wally lb-
,ut a total
Now be
;, that hie
.niprac ti-
tre abould
nd no re-
d hint.clt
said that