Star.
London, England, 1821-04-19 00:00:00

Nk

PAAI7tAImENI4irY PROCEEDINGS.

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.144\ ' HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 11.
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°u' wl weresheara on the Miller Divorce Case, and further
proceedings were postponed till after the Holidays.
The Charitable Lands Transfer Bill went through a Commit-
tee proforma, and was ordered to be printed.
The St. Luke's Parish Rate Bill, the Manchester Improve-
'mem, and the Don Navigation Improvement Bills, were
brought up from the Commons by Mr. Ilvma, Lord STANLEY,
Mr. S. W • add others, and read a first time.
The English and Irish Bank Cash Payments Bills went re-
spectively through Committees, and the Reports were received.
Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. lbettaanson presented the Report of the Commissioners
appointed to superintend the building of New Churches.
On the motion of Mr. Homes, a new Writ was ordered to
be issued for the return of a Knight to serve in the present Par-
liament, in the room of the'l‘larquis of Londonderry, late Lord
Castlereagh, Member for the Comity of Down, Ireland.
Mr. CUR WEN presented Petitions from certain Clearers of
the Soil, Inhabitants of Alback and Levengen, complaining at
Agricultural Distress.—Ordered to be printed.
, Mr. D. GILBERT brought up the Report of the Committee
on the Metropolitan Road Bill.
Mr. CUR WEN hoped the printing of this Bill would not be
postponed to so late a period of the S.:ssion as sv.is intended.
Ho thought it would be in compliance with the wish of the
House not to press this Bill through any more of its stages this
Session. It might be printed and brought forward early in the
ensuing Session.
Mr. D. GILBERT was not inclined to delay the Bill beyond
the present Session. It had been so amended in the Committee
as tu meet with general approbation.
Sir H. PARNELL said, he should always oppose the Bill.
After some further observations from Mr. Houywooo and
Mr. Comes, the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on the
9th of May next.
Mr. HON YWOOD presented a Petition from cert. In Inha-
bitants of Blackheath, praying that the Queen might be rein-
stated in all her rights and privileges.—Laid on the table.
A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships assent
to.several public and private Bills.
Mr. LEN NA RI) presented a Petition from certain inhabit-
ants of Avery, in Suffolk, praying for protection against the Im-
portation of Foreign Commodities.—Laid on the table.
Mr. CHICHESTER presented a Petition from the Dealers
In Hardware and Pottery in Belfast, in Ireland, against certain
Duties affecting thelit trade, • and praying that the Bill enacting
them might not pass into a law.—Ordered to lie on the table,
and to be printed.
The lion. Member then presented a Petition from the Owners
and Occupiers of Land in the Hundred of Word, in the County
of Essex, complaining of Distress, and praying for such relief as
to the House should seem meet.—Laid on the table.
Sir G. NOEL moved for an Account of all Sums expended In
making the New Street, from the commencement down to the
Seth of March, 1821, detailing the names of Pertains to whom the
different Sums had been paid, and particularising the names of
Commissioners, Clerks, &c. under the provisions of the New
Street Aet.
Mr. LUSIIINGTON suggested to the Hon. Baronet the ex-
pediency of his withdrawing the motion, in consequence of the
absence of a ltight Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson).
Sir G. NOEL said he had no objection to do so, but it would
he with the understanding that he was at liberty to introduce the
motion immediately after Easter.—Motion withdrawn.
Mr. HA RBOR 1) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter
and amend the laws relative to the Manufacture and Sale of
Bread.—Leave granted.
STEAM ENGINES.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR. rose, pursuant to the motion
of which he had given notice, to call the attention of
the House to the injurious effects produced by the
smoke issuing from the furnaces of steam-engines.—
The Hon. Member then cited, as an instance of the
fact, the case of a schoolmaster, who had betn ne-
cessitated to remove from the premises he occupied,
in consequence of the injury which the health of his
pupils sustained from a steam-engine in his neigh-
bourhood. He next adverted to some former mea-
sures which he had proposed for abating the nuisance
in question, and suggested the necessity of reducing
the smoke. He then detailed certain circumstances
to shew the nuisance created by the steam-engines
used in the Lambeth Water- wen ks, which, however,
was now (from a complaint made to the proprietors
by himself and the Earl of Liverpool) considerably
abated, from the introduction of a smokt-consumer
into the engine. The same cure might be generally
applied both in town and country, where such nui-
sances existed, and were endured only because many
could not afford to carry on a prosecution against
their owners.—What he (Mi. Taylor) proposed was, to
give full power to the Magistrates at Quarter Ses-
sions to encourage prosecutions, by exonerating the
prosecutors from all liability to expense. He wished
that the Magistrates should take the subject into
their own hands entirely. The Hon. Member con-
cluded some further observations by moving for leave
to bring in a Bill to give greater facility in the prose-
cution and abatement of nuisances arising from fur-
naces in Steam-engines. .
Mr. TREMAYNE spoke in favour of the principle
of the Bill to a certain extent, but he thought it might
be carried too far with respect to mines.
Mr. D. GILBERT said a few words to the same
effect, and observed that it would be desirable to re-
duce the smoke in small towns.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY supported the motion. There
were so many ingenious inventions for the suppres-
sion of the evil, that no excuse, he thought, existed
for the proprietors of steam-engines not putting it
into practice.
Mr. GRENFELL concurred in the utility of the
proposed measure, but at the same time he hoped
due consideration would be given to the hint thrown
out relative to the application of this Bill to large
steam-engines, for particular purposes, and in parti-
cular spots.
Mr. S. WORTLEY did not see why the remedy
should not be applied to steam-engines in the coun-
try, distant from town, as well as in other places.—
/lon. Menibers who did not live in the country did
not know the inconvenience resulting from the esta-
blishment of steam-engines near their residences.
Mr. CU RW EN thought great benefit might accrue
from the Bill, but care ought to be taken in fixing
the extent of its operation.
Mr. Alderman WOOD assured the Hon. Member
that if he persisted in making his Bill apply to all
steam-engines, of whatever construction or purpose,
or wheresoever situated, he would be in great danger
of losing it altogether. He would bring the whole
4`2 Members for Cornwall on his back, and they were
not without power in that House; for in that county
were established a vast number of *powerful steam-
engines fur working the mines, not of eight or ten
horse-power, like those in town, but of two or three,
hundred horse-power ; and, if these enginei
to be stopped only for twelve hours, until an experi-
ment should be made of the nature described by the
lion. Member, the consequence would be, that water
would get into the mine and ruin it. It was impos-
sible, therefore, that the Members for Cornwall would
permit a Bill to go through that House which would
tutu the whole county, and he did not think the

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Hon. Member could make out a case to satisfy the
House against them.
Mr. M.A. TAYLOR said he had been completely
misunderstood. It was thought that he proposed to
introduce a new law, whereas he was only desiring
to explain the old law. If he was obliged to confine
the operation of the Bill to towns only, he would
withdt aw it, as it would do harm rather than good.
He did not know why he was to be deterred by 4.2
Members from Cornwall, and he was sure he could
make out a case which would overcome the smoke of
their great strength in that House! —( Laughter.)—
The smoke of`steam-engines was a nuisance, and no
persons ought to be annoyed with it in any situation,
especially when a simple remedy could be applied.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The Order of the Day for the House resolving it-
self into a Committee of Supply was read.
Mr. HUME said, there was no intention on his side
of the House to oppose the estimates now, as an op-
portunity for doing so would offer on the bringing up
the Report after the holidays.
' Several votes were then proposed and agreed to,
including the half-pay allowances to retired Officers
and others.

Sir ROBERT WILSON called the attention of the
Noble Lord opposite to an assertion which was con-
tained in a speech of the Lord President, at a Meet-
ing in Edinburgh. The speech was contained in a
New spaper, which he held in his hand, and it re-
ported the Lerd President to have said, that it was
not in the Police of Edinburgh alone, but also in the
Navy and Army, that the custom prevailed of sign-
ing false half-pay hits. Now this assertion, with re-
spect to the Navy and Army, he was sure the Noble
Lord would have no difficulty in contradicting. He
then called the Noble Lord's notice to the declaration
which was required of every Officer, who wished to
exchange, and asked whether it was really necessary
to be continued ?

Lord PALMERSTON denied the existence of any
such custom in the Army or Navy, as that of sign-
ing false half-pay lists. As to the declaration, he
thought no more effectual mode of preventing abuses
in making exchanges could be devised.
Mr. HUME said, that with respect to false half-
pay lists, the report arose from the fact of a Captain
Browne, at the head of the Edinburgh Police, having
signed false musters of the men under his care. The
inhabitants wished he should be removed, but the
Lord President defended the custom, and justified it
by saying that a custom prevailed, both in the Army
and Navy, of signing false half-pay lists. lie was
sure the public disavowal of the Noble Lord would
have a very salutary effect.
Sir G. CLERK was certain the report in the News-
paper of the Lord President's speech was incorrect.
After a few words from Sir E. HARVEY, Lord
PALMERSTON, and Sir ROBERT WILSON,
Sir M. W. FIIDLEY asked under whose direction
the widows' pensions were distributed ?
Lord PALMERSTON said they were chiefly dis-
tributed, according to regulation, through his office,
which had no discretion, except that of advising the
Crown to withhold pensions on special grounds.
Mr. HUME explained further with respect to Cap-
tain Browne.

The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND trusted
that the Committee would not presume guilt in either
of the parties, until they had further information.
Mr. H. . BENNETT said, that this was only
a part of the old Scotch system which perpetuated
every abuse.
A vote for £lOl,OOO for widows' pensions was
then agreed to; as was also votes for £20,000 to Offi-
cers widows on the Irish Establishment; £153,000
to defray the charge of Corps ordered to be dis-
banded in England, and a sum for a similar charge
in Ireland.

Mr. WARD moved a vote of £157,000 for the
Ordnance charges.—Agreed to.
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered
to be received to-morrow, and it was ordered that the
House should again resolve itself into the said Com-
mittee on Monday sennight. '

REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
Mr. LAMBTON moved the Order of the Day for
resuming the adjourned debate on his motion for
going into a Committee to consider the state of the
Representation.
Mr. WYVILL shortly supported the motion for
going into a Committee. He considered that the
House would do great public good by acceding to it.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW opposed the motion. He
referred to a Paper which was circulated in 1793,
signed by several Peers and Commoners, which stated,
that a very considerable number of Members of this
House were returned by a certain number of Peers.
He had taken some pains to ascertain the truth of
that statement, and he found it to be a tissue of mis-
takes. He protested, that wherever an actual griev-
ance could be shewn, he would give his aid to re-
move it, but he cook' not consent to deprive any
man of his franchise on mere theoretical argument.
Mr. SYKES expressed his determination to vote
for the motion of his Hon. Friend. He contended,
in the words of Mr. Burke, that the Representation
of the country should be the express image of the
feelings of the country. It appeared, indeed, that
the lfonourable Member for Yorkshire was of a dif-
ferent opinion ; he thought that the Representation of
the Country should be the express image of the feel-
ings of the Ministry—(llear, hear).— That, unhap-
pily, was the present state of the Representation, as
their constant opposition to the Petitions of the People
too clearly manifested. To that state of the Repre-
sentation he objected ; it was that he wished to see
undergo a complete change. He did not agree ex-
actly in the plan contemplated by his Hon. Friend,
but, at the same time, he was anxious to go into the
Committee, to see how far it could be adopted. He
thought the plan particularly defective, in confining
the elective franchise to leaseholders, copyholders,
and householders. This plan excluded a large class
of artisans, who were not represented. He did not
think it necessary to trespass long on the House, after
the very able manner in which this question had been
already discussed. He had been too long a disciple
of the school of Fox, Sir G. Saville, and the late
Lord Chatham, not to be a strong Reformer. He
verily believed that this question was every day
making greater progress, and he was much more
*Ming to deal with it now, than to oppose it when it
would assume ,hervafter a character of violence.
1, Mr. DENETT (Wilts) said, there were many parts.

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of the proposed plan of Reform to which he could
not accede. But he could not conceive, at the same
time, how any man who, like himself, was anxious
for the purity of Parliament, could refuse to go into
the Committee. It had been said, that it was neces-
sary for the Ministers of the Crown to have a certain
influence in this House to support them through any
measures they, should ptopose; but he did not think
it necessary that Ministers should give up their places
if they happened to be left in a minority on any ques-
tion. This House-ought to exercise a strong contronl
over Ministers, as it did in some measure over the
Crown and the other House of Parliament. It was
notorious, that at present corruption prevailed to a
very great extent. Seats were openly sold ; diffe-
rences of prices were fixed for Boroughs, according
to the freedom of voting which was allowed to them.
It was well known, that those Boroughs which had
the initials D. It. Y. annexed to them were sold at
half price—(Laughter).—When
.he saw such corrup-
tion as this openly acknowledged, he could not feel
himselfustified in refusing to accede to this motion
(Hear, hear!)

Captain MABERLY said ,he could not support
this motion, as he would thus in some measure coun-
tenance a plan of Reform which he could not ap-
prove; at the same time, he had no difficulty in de-
claring that he was a Reformer to a certain extent.
He would give his support' to any moderate plan of
Reform which was founded on constitutional and
practical principles. Sixty-eight Boroughs were now
disfranchised, which had formerly returned Members
to Parliament. He thought that the most populous
of these Boroughs might be usefully restored to their
former franchise. With respect to this plan of the
Honourable Member for Durham, he conceived that
it would give too much power to the People. It
would makethis House too exactly the Representa-
tive of the People; and, instead of their following
their own deliberate sentiments, they would be in-
fluenced and determined by every ferment of the
public mind, a result which, he conceived, no reason-
able man in this House would wish to see.

Mr. RANISDEN felt anxious to express his con-
victien of the necessity of amendment in the state of
the Representation. This opinion was confirmed,
when he considered the proceedings which occupied
the House during the last Session. He was of opi-
nion that the system of Reform proposed to be acted
upon by the Bill of his Noble Friend (Lord John
Russell) would be in every respect the most eligible;
and as far as the plans of his Honourable Friend pro-
posed to carry this system into effect, he would sup-
port it. He would also give his assent to that part
of the plan which proposed to shorten the duration
of Parliaments; but he was not prepared to go with
his Honourable Friend to the extent of dividing the
country into bodies, like the French electors.
Mr. HARBORI) conceived that the demand of
Reform on the part of the People was just and fair ;
and he was of opinion that so strong was the neces-
sity of this Reform, that if the House would not be
reformed within, it certainly would be reformed from
without. He declared be would not give his support
to any Administration that would not make the prin-
, ciple of Reform a substantial and leading part of
their policy.

.
Mr. RICARDO said, that conceiving the question
of Reform to be far the most important that was un-
der the attention of the House for some time, he felt
it necessary to say a few words. on the subject. He
most cordially agreed in the plan of his Honourable
Friend, the Member for Durham ; he merely had to
regret that it contained no provision for regulating
the manner of election. Had the plan embraced a
regulation giving to the Electors the right of voting
by ballot, it would have been still more acceptable.
Mr. DENIS BROWN opposed the Motion, as he
always understood Reform to mean nothing but un-
constitutional alteration.

Sir G. ROBINSON supported the Motion, request-
ing that the House would not consider him as pledged
to support the particular plan proposed.
Mr. T. WILSON declared himself to be no Re-
former, but at the same time he would not shut his
eyes to any case of corruption that might be proved to
the satisfaction of the House. He did not hold that
he was there to represent, or consult exclusively, any
particular interests, but to co-operate for the general
good of the country. Neither were they there to at-
tend merely to the wishes of the People, because, for
instance, if they were, it was impossible that they
could vote for a continuance of the Taxes. He did
not think that any good could result frinn taking the
state of the Representation into consideration. He
should therefore vote against the Motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt
himself relieved from stating his objections to the
plan of the Hon. Member, because there was not one
Member who gave his assent to the ►Motion, that did
not declare his disapprobation of that plin. Objec-
tionable, however, as the plan was, he would rather
see it embodied in a Bill, and brought under the at-
tention of the House in that shape, than agree to any
vague Motion for a review of the state of the Repre-
sentation, which would be to condemn the existing
order of things, without proposing any remedy. He
denied that the People in general expressed or felt
any desire for Reform. It was true there were Peti-
tions on the table that referred to the subject, but
these Petitions almost uniformly stated some particu-
lar grievance which they laboured under, and which
they seemed to think might be removed by Parlia-
mentary Reform. Wherever the notion of the efficacy
of Reform prevailed, it arose partly from fancied dis-
tress, and partly from a desire of innovation. He also
denied that the House of Commons, as at present
constituted, did not represent the sense of the People.
There was scarcely any instance in which the People
had reiterated a decided and deliberate opinion, that
Parliament did not ultimately feel it necessary to
adopt that opinion—and of this assertion the history
of the abolition of the Slave Trade was a strong in-
stance. He considered Parliament the great regula-
tor of opinions; and the Press, which mixed up with
much sound argument a good deal of misrepresenta-
tion and falsehood, was corrected by it. In short, the
great publicity of the proceedings of that House ;
the comments of the Press upon the conduct of its
Members—and the facilities now existing for the ge-
neral expression of popular feeling, raised a counter-
acting cause so powerful, that lio thinking man could
be at all alarmed for the liberties of the People on
account of the influence of the Crown. Being of
opinion, that nowhere was a greater share of practi-
cal freedom than under the yr escut conatitution of

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the. House
... of Commons, he ions desirous of Riving
stability to that system as the surest safe-guard under
whose protection they could transmit that freedom to
their posterity. He considered the Motion to he to-
tally unnecessary, and that nothing but agitation
could result from entering into the consideration of a
plan, which all who spoke even in favour of the prin.
ciple of Reform, joined in discountenancing. He
begged pardon, there was one Honourable Gentle.
man (Mr. Ricardo) who approved of the plan. That
Gentleman had been called a theorist ; but of all his
theories, surely his theory about Reform was the
most fantastical.-

g, Question r was now reiterated from all parts of
the House. While the Gallery was clearing for a
division,
Mr. CANNING rose and said, in the absence of
the principal Members on both sides, who were in
the habit of taking a part in the discussions of that
House, and in the absence of the Honourable Mover
himself, he felt it his duty to abstain from making
lany observations, or interfering with the general wish,
which seemed to go at once to a division.
The House then divided, at a few minutes before
eight o'clock, and the numbers were--
Ayes
Nuci
Majority against Mr. Latnbton's Motion--.12
The House then proceeded to dispose of the other
Orders of the Day. _

A short conversation ensued on the Spoiled Stamps
Duties Bill, which ended in the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER postponing the receiving of a Report on
that Bill to Monday se nnight.
On the Motion for the second reading of the Scotch
Hereditary Revenue Bill,
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON rose to make
a few observations. Whilst the Noble Lord was
on his legs(
Mr. LAMBTON rose and said, he wished to speak
to order. He had to state, that on coming into the
House a little before, he perceived that some Honour.
able Gentlemen directed their eyes towards him,
laughing significantly at the same moment, and, as
he had no doubt, with reference to the fate of his
Motion. He wanted to know, distinctly, who these
Gentlemen were, and he would wait in the expects,
tion that they would have the manliness to avow
themselves! ( Hear, and Order ! )
The e PEA KER said, he would appeal to the good
sense of the Honourable Member himself, if this was
a question which he ought to put ?—(Hear, Lear)._
He took it for granted, that the House was ready to
act upon the conviction, that its digr.ity and decorum
were always best consulted by taking care that none
of its Members should receive offence. From the
manner in which the Honourable Member introduced
the subject to the notice of the House, he seemed to
be doubtful of the existence of the cause of complaint
to which he alluded ; and it would be admitted by
him, at once, that he should not proceed with a
charge of this nature, unless he was capable of fixing
it, and proving it satisfactorily.
Mr. LAMBTON rose to explain. He begged to
state, that shortly before the unexpected division, be
had gone out to take some little refreshment, which
he had not been able to do for the whole of last night.
On returning to the House, he was met by his Hoe.
Friend near -him (Mr. Whitbread), who informed him
of the event ; and on entering the House, he saw the
countenances of some of the Hon. Gentlemen di-
rected towards him, as if they meant to impute to
him neglect that the House had come so suddenly
to a division. He wished to allude more particularly
to the Hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Huskisso4
and the Hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Bash
son)—(Cries of Chair ! and Order).—ln moving that,
the House do now adjourn—(Chair, Chair, Chair.)
The SPEAKER begged to remind the Honourable
Member, that he had risen to order, whilst another
was on his legs, and that he was not, therefore, com-
petent to move an adjournment. He would put it
to the Hon. Member again, who h was sure was 5
interested for the maintenance of the dignity and de
corum of the House, as any Honourable Member ii
it—he would put it to him, whether or not he iota-
gined that any advantage could he expected, or that
the dignity and respectability of the House would be
increased, or, he would rather say, preserved, by
carrying this conversation any further? And if the
House agreed in opinion with him that it ought me
to proceed farther, he expected that they would sop.
port him in carrying that opinion into effect (Cheat).
Mr. LAMBTON said, he would readily bow to
the decision of the Chair. He v.ould only add, the
he deeply lamented the unfortunate event which had
taken place, for he believed in his conscience that it
was a most unfortunate issue, because the impressioa
might go forth, that the question was got rid of by
a surprize, and that the House was unwilling togive
it that attention which, in public opinion, it deserved.
Mr. HUSKISSON would claim the indulgence d
the House whilst he made a few observations, baling
been publicly alluded to by the Hon. Member. k
was true, there was an expression of the nature de-
scribed by the lion. Member upon his countenance,
but he declared that it had no reference to the Had
Member, but was connected solely with the auto'
of a conversation between him and the Hon. Maier
for Lincoln. He declared upon his honour that dii
was the fact. He begged to state, that he did
know the Hon. Member to have been absent daring
the division ; and further, he rather regretted to
abruptness of the decision, as he was desirous dig
many who wished to express their sentiments OM
this question should have an opportunity of dotal I'
Mr. G. DAWSON disclaimed all interell'i
giving offence to the Hon. Member for Durham Se
~
assured that Hon. Member, that the smile All'
construed into an expression of contempt, hadria_Le
nection with the division which had just taken r 7„,
in that I louse. In fiet, he (Mr. Dawson) did ree
stow a thought upon the subject after it was, as hi_
supposed, set to rest for the time. He wondered, lir
deed, the Hon. Member should feel so much cat;
cern at the manner in which his motion was MO
of, in which there was nothing at all extraordinal
Mr. S. WHITBREAD did not rise to take thew
nourable Member for Durharti under his protteet
He thought it unfair, however, that other men shr.
measure Isis feelings, on this occasion, by what
themselves might feel. His Hon. Friend must IP",
felt considerable disappointment at the result of be
motion ; but no blame was attributable to him
that result—(Hear, hear).—His Hon. Friend re
ferently situated from other Members. He bin
(Mr. Whitbread) deplored the event which r