Star.
London, England, 1816-03-05 00:00:00

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Mr. WYNNE saisf, he might have been mistaken
In alluding to the Case of the increase of pay to Ge-
neral Officers. But there was one itistdace in winch
he *as certain he was perfectly correct; namely, the
increase or pay to serjeants. He was perfectly ter.
fain that an Order in Council bed been issued during
the recess of Parliament, directing the increase of
their pay.
Lord PALMERSTON—Aa to the increase of
eerjeants' pay. he did believe the Honourable
Gentleman was right; there had been some slight
interference by an Order in Cooncil, but it was in a
Very trifling matter, and not by any means consi-
dered as absolittely decided until confirmed by Pas-
bament.

Colonel WOOD, being one of the unfortunate
Members of that Military Club which had been un-
pccuuntably made the subject of so much discussion,
wished to set the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Dic-
kenson) right. by stating the nature of an institution
so much misrepresented. It was certainly true, that
there wan a great number of military men in the Club,
but then there w.is also a great proportion of Gentle-
men igi tie naval service in the Club, as originally
formed ; and, in consequence of a junction which had
lately been effected with another club, the number of
lava! men had been so much increased as to bear an
eau: poops rtion to those who belonged to the army.
But in addition to the junction of these two great
branches of the service, (a. junction which he would
bare thought calculated to eradicate any disposition
In view the Institution with jealousy), there was ano-
ther class of cificers of whom the Club was composed,
towards whom, of all others, it would be almost im-
possible to entertain any jealous feeling—he meant
*thcets who had been in the service of the East India
COrnpany—who had,returned from India with consi.
doable tOrtunes—and who, having invested their
inoney in this country, must be considered as the
most interested in the maintenance of those civil esta-
blishments by which, their property was secured : but
besides these, the Club included others, whose habits,
dispositions. and principles were such, that they most,
be equally incapable of exciting jealousy—for in.
Stance, there were many militia officers, no less than
Ilurky.six Colpuelsof Militia Regiments, great (Jen.
dens, perhaps, by being associated with such a Club,
but there they were—(A late, and Near, hear.)—,
There were also many Lords Lieutenants of Coun-
ties. firhe Honourable Gentleman said that this was
the only Club from which all persons who were not
Of the same profession were excluded: Ent this was
quite a mistake : there bad been no less than four
Naval Clubs. There were also many other proles.
eional Clubs—tor instance, of Lawyers. And there
were too Clubs of another kind, very exclusive in
mar nature : nay, the Honourable Member whom.
n t ett the t'etition was a member of a Club in which
. there were not many Gentletnen—(4 //nigh )—He
irusted the House and the Honourable Gentleman
would excuse the slip which he had made : what 'he
meant was, that tke Club to which he alluded was
composed solely of persons in the habit of voting in
opposition to the measures of Goversunent.—(Cries of
naare ! from the Oftjtorite4e.)—He did not wish
to mime it very particularly; but perhaps, he would
be understood when he mentioned that its members
were in the habit of meeting at Brooks's (hear, hear:.)
A got*, deal too much had been said about the Ms-
lite, y Club. It was certainly desirable that the two
great In gnaws of the service, the Army and Navy,
should he con.pietely combined, and should have op.
sof social intercourse. A near relation of
asi H ueursbLe Ggnsicana eppttailt (bk. Winne)

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oaalb...iimiir4l•••••••.•
itT.lttiOilitrations of personal. .cbaraeter, some
• An* might object to any inVeuigation of the conduct
of Government, .and it might be-mid—Good Got)!
can you entertain any doubt of the' future acids of
those Ministers who have done so much -for the ser-
vice of the countrv? This sort of argument could
be in any case admitted. He was ready to uphold
and admire the personal characters of the members
of the Military Club, but he objected In the fo-ma-
' lion of such a body of men, from whose, meetings
civilians were excluded. He was told, that one of
the rules of the Club was, that no political discus-
sion should be introduced on any account whatever.
This was very gotid, but how did he know that some
fine day, when a sufficient number were assembled
together, this good resolution would not be rescinded.
To get itself tolerated, it was easy to pass a resolu-
tion like that to which he had alluded, with the in-
tention of subsequently rescinding it, for he did not
suppose they would come to Nrliament to get adhe-
rence to it made obligat. •ry. He objected to such an
institution as the Military Club, which would Itrik
Op for the countenance of the Crown and the Crawl'
alone. l,n 1798, when it was in contemplation to
increase the pay of the Officers in the Army, a Mes-
s_ age was sent down to Parliament in the first instance,
before any thing was determined upon ; but in 1814,
when a similar increase of pay was thought neces-
sary, it had been done by an Order in Council,
Which Parliament was afterwards invited to sanction.
Lord PALMERSTON rose to correct a mistake
Into which the Honourabk Gentleman who spoke
last had fallen, and which had surprised him a good
deal, considering his great knewtedge in emistitu-
tional precedents. The Honourable Gentleman said,
that the last increase of pay to General Officers had
Era been made by an Order in Council, and that al.
terwards Parliament had been called upon to ac-
quiesce. Surely the Honourable Gentleman must
know that it is nut possible fur any regulation as to
the army, to be made by an Order in Council. With
respect to the Navy, indeed, the case was somewhat
different, and there were instances of regulations at.
fecting that branch of the service having been made
by Orders from the Privy Council. What the Het.
-nourable Gentleman probably meant to state. was
this, that some regulation had been made tor in-
creasing the pay of Officers before the consent of
Parliament was obtained. Now for himself he could
only state, that during the time that he had filled
the office ehich he now had the honour of ocetpying
to such thing had taken place; and he should hive
thought that he was transgressing his duty it he had
made any communic..tion to the Army of an increase
of pay until the measure was submitted to Parlia-
ment, and its consent obtained. This had been done
in 1814., when the but incoase of pay had been
made to General Officers. 0.1 that occasion he had
himself brought down the Estimates, and Lid them
on the cable, preparatory to opeong the proposed
measure to st t•

yrae;fK-r---61)etw stamters at ate 114 wag to
of whom he might, safely pay, that would be.tlle
last to join any association from which there could be
ally danger, to the constitatioa. Be repeated, that
by the very principles of the institution every thing
Political was excluded, and its wieStings were merely
for the sake of conviviality.
' Mr. ROSE observed, that after all that had been
said, the House would perhaps be surprised to hear
that he was a member of this formidable Military.
Club— (d lath, and Mar, sitar,)—though it was
very well known that he was neither a naval nor a
military man ; but be bad received an invitation to
become a member of it, from a Noble Lord of so
high a character as to be at once_ a sanction for his
acceptance of it. It was, of course. on account of
the official situation which he held that he had re-
ceived this invitation, by which he felt himself highly
honoured. So far was he from seeing any thing ob-
jectionable in the institution, that he thought it highly
commendable. There was no novelty in its nature;
for Naval Clubs on a similar principle bad lang been
established. As to saying that. there was reason to
apprehend that some inroad against the Constitution
was intended by such an establishment, consisting of
naval and military men, it any mischief of this kind
were intended by a combination of that class of so-
ciety. their object might have been equally effected
by their calling a meeting for the express purpos!.l
without proceeding to establish a Club. Gfrit In.,
cnnieilience to the public service had been heard to
result trona Commanding Officers on f stations
not being personally acquainted ; oid to obviate thus,
nothing cowl be better calculated than this Club.—
He could not see on what posit;vt eern, at any thin.
ger to the Constitution was to be awl lit 1..:, et hintil
the convivial meetings of persons c"uorcied sits the
army and navy. Times had been is. wit', t the COll.
stioni 'n had been put in greater danger by Ciutai 0a
Lawyers titan it could he ny this institu ion - (Hear )
he had heard with shame and cons:e n attacks which
had been made upon this Club. For his own part.
he thought it was established f,n an excellent prin-
ciple—he felt himself bonoinesi being admitted a
member of it —he felt warmly interested in its suc-
cess--and he hoped it would is,lig c,:utinue to a us ish.
(Near, hear.)
Lord M LLToN, instead of finding that the objec-
tions to this Club were removed by what had been
said. found them increased. It was exclusively cons-
posea of per, ns in the service of Government, who
me: in their official capacity. He understood that
the Noble Lord opousle (i'almerston), in virtue of
his situatiou as Secretary at WAN was a member of
it; the Right fion.urahle Genthman, too, who
spoke last, as haven; what might be called the ma-
nagement of the Finaticiat Departmeht of the Navy,
was made a member of i' Was nothing to be al-
lowed tor the danger to arise from the influence of
iconyany in the meetings of men, who from their
habits and principles were already too mach sepa-
rated fr am the civil clevses of the community—who
alt lo•dred to the Crow, tor promotion ? He believed
that ultra was not now any club in existence com-
posed exclusively of Lawycis; but it the Consti.u-
tion had ever been endangered by a club of lawyers,
how .such more mason was there to apprehend that,
mischief might :vise trivet an eeclusive asseciaiien
of Admirals and Cnnerals f He `did,- est* far
thing now, because lie keew the high character of
those individuals who now completed-4.g bet it ivai
to the principle of the institution that he 'objected;
at a time might come when such an establishment
might be made the medals of overthrowing,our Con-
stitution.
The Hon. Captain WALDEGRA.Vi sad. thge
was ne analegy whatever between the Natial Clubs
which had been so long instituted, and this Military
Club. The termer generally consisted of halt-pay
Officers, who could scarcely be considered is under
the Influence of the Crown.

General GASCOIGNE thought that though no.
thing satisfactory had yet been said in vindication of
the Military Club, it would be in hisipower to do
away every uaiavourable impression that existed
against it.—(LamAer.)—The establishment 6f 'a
Military Club was no innovation. So ;far back as
the war. in king William's time a clubt of this kiad
had been established, under the name 4 the Flan..
ders Club." Soon after a u German Cleb" bad been,
formed by the Officers who had served 'in the
Amen., -,
naigns in that country; and afterwards an u Ameri-
can Club;" in short, he might safely say there were
fifteen or sixteen clubs of the same deseription—that
was to say, composed of military men, who maw
bled to enjoy each other's society, and m talk over'
military adventures and exploits. Among the rest,
more recently, there bad been the as Holland Club,"
and the ash Staff Club." Of all these that re.
mained in existence, a junction had been effected,
and an arrangement had- been made to have the
members dine together once a month. But the chief
intention of the establishment was, that it should be
made useful to halspay officers, who might have a
dinner, or what .was commonly as ordinary;
at a cheap r.tte, and at the same time a *se of as-
sort where they could meet their old friends. - This
was changed ininwhat had been called
Service Club," and included Officers of the avy,
litia Officers, and in short, Gentlemen connected with
the Army or Navy. But still it was principally for
the benefit of half-pay officers, » where:.(said the
Honourable General), they might have cheap din-
ner, and meet pool society,l3.-(4lkgla.),—What
had this Club done to deserve the attacks made upon
it ? Had anj improper act taken plate in it .I.Surely
it would be time enough to raise a cry against it,
when any transaction connected with it Could be
mentioned, of such a nature as.to excite any jealousy
or alarm. There was no reason to suppose that mi..
Uteri men were more under the WSW* of the
Crown than any ether class of men. or his own
part, be denied that there could be any. man who
gave more =blamed attention to the affairs of
bu constituents than himself, or who acted more in.
dependently. It was a subject on which he: Would
challenge any man.4(.4 kigh.—He natant he iwould
challenge any man to state that this was not.the.fact.
There was nothing in this Club at all connected with
politics; and consequently not the shadow.td: !ono-
' &dim for what bad been said of its endaageripg the
'Constitution.
Mr. BROUGHAM rose amid criesforthequeStion.
He said he saw no reason for any long discusitiori on
the subject which bad been agitated, at leasti Of pre.
soile lint as the Hon. General (GareoignoVhad
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he
ti Wined wawa of a* thins eattifacto* from
ttion. Gentlemen who tad preceded him in the
adieus of this tiew Club; even so he found himself
after the Hon. General's explanation. (A loug4.)
So far indeed• from any thin; satisfactory having
been said, he found, cause of trims regret to the
country in what had come out during the discussion.
This Club was not 'to be considered alone and as un-
connected with the other symptoms of t',.- times.—
He saw in it part of a gradu .1 progres, i attempt
to alter the habits of the country ; an.' iudeed (a%
had been absolutely stated on the oth. - side of the
House) to Make us mere of.a military nation. IV-
willing as he was to prolong this co:,versation (as
there would be other opportunities for g. ang into the
subject) he could not sit down without noticing, t tat
influence had actually been used to oidoce diff,reut,
persons to become members of this esth. This Or
fact was quite sufficient to shew a vet y lively interest
WAS taken in its cuncernit, in some coat LA- which did
need to he more ii.irticularly named. i-nd further,
lie understood 6." to the very quarter a .uded to (in
which no doubt f, ~trong interest was taken its she
application which i had mentioned, and from wilich
no doubt suggestioi.3 or directions were rsceiied
to the individuals to whom the applicatio:t should be
addressed)—to this vet y quarter a regular return
was made of these who gave in their names in accrp.
tance of the invitation, as well as of those who refused.
He tad only farther to state his surprize that it
shoult: have been thought that any pet-mord imputa-
tati4lll WAS meant against the p articular individuals of 1
whom the Ciub was composed. No man was more
ready thins himself to speak forth the praises of the
Army—no man had a higher sense of their achieve-
nviats-T no man could mote deeply ft el the indivi-
dual merits of the Officers, nor was more sensible cf
the great expense of blood, as well as fortune, at
which they had so gloriously served their country--
1 no man was mores •nsible how little was to be feared
from the men who had acted such a part. As far as
personal security could go, there could be no stronger.
He concluded by eulogizing the Noble Lord at the
head of the Club (Lord Lynedocb) whom he would
be proud to call his friend, and from whom, last of
all men, any thing uoconstitutional was to be appre-
hended.

Colonel WOOD begged to be allowed to say a
few words be fond mere explanation. There leas—
on belialf of the Chill, he wished distinctly to state—
not one tittle of lound,ama Ix what had been said
by the Honottrahle and Learned Gentleman who
had jest sat down, abrAttCM being courted
to hecome iviember4, o,nd retorns made to a certain
high Personage. \V en any person who was a can-
didate 'or admiiiinn, w is rejected, or, as it was called,
Waci.balled, the person so excluded, of course heard
of his rejection. B.it exc(%:t tl.is, there was not the
slightest iostodition for what the Honourable and
Leareed Geti'lerean had asserted.

Mr. BROUGHAM firmly believed that the fact
was implicitly as he had stated it. He bad heard it
on such authority, fir even after what the Ho-
nourable Colonel had ssud, he could not doubt that
it was the case.

General GASCOIGNE said, that neither returns
nor commulticAtiolis of any kind were made to any
Att trier as to the election of the Member sot the
cirrts, excepting tho circulars sent to the &if rent
members of the old Clubs which had beet incorpo-
rated with that in ques.iun.
Mr. WESTERN thought that it was incumbent
on the H .use to look with jealousy upon such an
institution, which bad the Duke of York, as Com-
mander-in-Chief, at its bead —(Crier of No,
which was formed during profound peace, an.O. into
which members of the Administration were adthitted.
Mr. GOOCH begged to state, that, in the obser-
vations he had made, he meant to cast no reflection
on the Gentlemen opposite. He merely wished to
observe, that the individuals of whom this Club was
vompoied, 'were as able as the Members of that
H use, so see whether they were doing any thing
urectwtstittaiocial or not.

Mr. WARD took that opportnnity, lest it might
be supposed, from what the Learned Gentleman
(Mr. Brougham) had stated, that the Prince Regent
was at the head of this Club, to give the most direct
Contradiction to that insinuation.
Mr. T. FOLEY complained of the terms as harsh
sad improper, by which an Hosoaratle Meniber
(Mr. Gooch) had characterised .the language in
which the Petitioners requested of the House to watch
the proceedings of this Club.
Mr. GOOCH assured the Hononrable Member,
•that he did not mean, by what he had midi to make
en personal attack. •
The Petition was then laid on the Table.
,Lord qssuuToN presented a Petition front the
Inhabitants of Knaresborough, against the Insolvent
Debtors' Aeto—Laid on the Table.

Mr. EGERTON presented a Petition from the
,lity of Chester against the Property Tax..—Laid on
the Table.•

Mr. WHARTON Pretested. a Petition from the
Mshit:ate of Beverley against the Property Tar.
Mr. FORBES said, he sincerely hoped, after,
_Phi& basi..pissed? that House, on the vetbject---of
this Tax, that Ministers, on 'due consideration, would
be induced to abandon the measure. If, however,
they persevered, he trusted they would be foiled in
their attempt.
The Petition was then laid on the Table.
Mr. METHUEN presented a Petition from the
Agriculturists of the Parish of Maiden-Bradley,l
pulpits the House to take into their serious conside.'
don, the depressed state of the Agricultural Inte-
rot.—•Laid on the Table.

Lord MILTON presented Petitions against the
Property Tax; from the inhabitants of Yoram, in the
.North Riding of Yorkshire—and from the towns of
gisborough and Leeds.
On the last.akentioned Petition being brought up,
. Lad LASCELLES rose and said, that, though
the meeting at which the Petition was agreed to, was
regularly convened. yet neither the Mayor, nor any
oue of the Aldermen of Leeds presided at it. Al..
though the meeting were . unanimous in Petitioning
against this Tax. yet he had reason to know, that
the general sense of the Town WAS not opposed to k;
With respect to the main point of the Petition, he
would not express any decided opinion on it. But
'he thought. in the first place, ilia!, it the Property
Tax Were Nnewed,,souse very consider-Al. modifica:
lions should be introduced, with respect to tensets.--6
In the aextplAce, it ought to be very muck filtetcd,

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whlk respectto its opera rhino twi Lvov
was a numerous body of Lendlorde
tern •
they had'not resineed their rents, stacre',
less, severe loss, s. • It would bear ettceed.h
on them, it the tax were levied, in pro„le!
amount if their nominel rentel. tepter`„ It
interest, t•et, required 4 revisi n of the o:141
though, in prase-Toys tin es, it might noie4te;
or inconvenient to call on that /lady to ra-at
closures necessary under the Act, he teas
in tr•e present eirctimstences of the count
Ise found m sst oppressive. The blehie I,
expressed his opinion, that the distresbe, of it7''
cultural interest mile not be remedied e, ;e.
fic motion in that These. l'iiere wet 'ttil
medy.-and that was a reduction ,f Liuti he
could al we be effected by the mr.st . Or., '•
tgld
iie;'ne, practised by his Kijesty's hfieestae,es '`",
hear ),—wilich he lied no detest w eild he tre He bed m ,de these few °bele/diens, ee„.. `4°
Ibis infirm •st de of health, he w etld,
ro„L_;'
unable to attend during the debars on theit-1,
tent topics.
Mr. W. WYNN perfectly ite,reed in the ,
tion of the Noe le Lord, that the only relief the be air stied, either to the cm:elle...id et agtfil
interest, was try a reduction of taxation, e" •
clone be effezted by a strict attention toed.
the differeet departments of Governmlire
pressed however, from the Noble Lord,
ettliVl.
pressed his opinion, that a system el etostity I'll
be pursued by Ministers. After sever.:) a:114
peace, be saw te, attempt at a reductionel t'i ft
those departments where it was nem c.,ilele:.'Ll
every blanch of Government he observed ap,,,‘•
and wasteful expenditure, which the centte -
etre
'able to support.
Mr. PONSONBY was sorry that the flott
not likely to have the bete fit of the Welt Lett,
• tendance on the discussions to which the K...
Tax would give rise. But he celled on estser:.
to mark the nature of the Noble Lord's objetiti
it. Tne Noble. Lord objected to the tax en a
because their circumstances wouij not enable then
pay it—he objected to the tax touc:iing a gnat:
her of landlords in the country, because, it hi.,
levied, it would be unjust aid inierilat—Q4
stated, that it nuiti.t not t i operate on cuisine
men, because, though in times of prosperity nal
be proper for them to make the necessary clikla
yet such a proceeding, at preseet, would bee:.
vous. If these bod:es were exempted !rein thee
ration of the tax, he shoal he gi.id us knot
Was to pay ;t, or by wh It means it was ti k
dered benefi -ial to the Treasury ?_(//zee, bar)
Lord MIL.TON said, althoueh the Nob.elAta
not, in expe ss terms. state his hominy to
might fair; t- he inferred, fro:n.his ober vistise,
he del no. approve of it. Tne Nettie Loil •
stated, the . a respectable Magistrate had ere, el
the Meetin , at L e..•. 15, and eipresed his ripies .
the petition sp. Ice t' c ;tenet a! sent;ments of tk
habitants .f thet town. It was net nun* .
signed, hu that circumstance was accounted fa
the ehortne•s of the time winch the petitioterski
prepare th• it representation. The peitien re
carried about for signatures, hut was Lett la
or two, at -the Itotetiors Offer., aria ataite
'house, for that purpose. l•
On the niotten of. Sir THOMAS BARING,
new writ was ordered for the Bis..ugh et Lerre,'
the room of A. Kemp, Esq. who has accepted •
Chiltern Hundreds.
Mr. P. GRENFELL nvred, nosiest°
notice early in the eveneig—eTit it there be We •
tote the House copies of .el Correspondeee did
took 'pleice between the Commis sitreei s for the slies
, Of. Taxes, and the firm of Weliams end GOA ,
on the subject of the Property 'rat, (Jewett! felt
May, 1815, and the Ist Febrility, 006, togv#l
with copies of the enclosures referred to-thee:rale
and also copies of the correspondence which
place between the said firm and tile Cernmittei
General Purposes, from December, 1815, to Fri*
cry, IBIS."'
The CHANCELLOR 4 the EXCHEQUIt
thought the notion unnecessary, he could not wok
object to be obtaieed by the selection of initial
cases.

Mr. P. GRENFELL stated that he had new
mer occasion commented" upon the oppressive cold*
of the Commissioilers Ca- the Affairs r.f. Tans, u
his object in moving for this correspondence sus
verify his assertion, aozl to adduce 3 ties!' erg
against the Property T sr.
Toe motion Was then agreed to.
CIVIL LIST.
l• Mr. BENNETT wished to inquire from the 1
Honourable GLlttleman opposite, whether he
brought down the Papers relat;ve to the Civil
which ought to have been some time past ham*
House ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUU°
replied, that he was aware the Act ot Patlused
had not been cornplb,d with i...y tl:e de ty w;:ich tot
place. But in jJstitication ot this delay he ber
state, that it was the practice ol the Board el .4.1.
to have their expenditortn:•ckect, by a stiitistirwl
of the accounts. In other departments the am
practice was observed, wnd some time was One"
thy required before the accounts could be WHO
Parliament with proper accuracy. The who
'however, nearly made up, and the Lord Sussed%
Department was the only one in arrear. in akg
days be hoped they would bellaid on the table of
House.

SUPPLY.
On the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQP
moving that the Order of the Day be read.
House resolving itself into t'he Committee of
Mr. W. WYNNE rose, irr pursuance of the airs
lie bad given, to move that tht Commit eett
structed to make a provision fcr the maintemioce4
the British army now serving in France. li waif*
dent, be observed, that the instructio.is should pr 4
their going into the Committee; and in pr.s):as
adoption of his opinion, it would be needle's !orbit
to dwell long on the subject ; for if any one colistitel
tional mazint was more imperative than aim tr
1114 country, it was, thit 'mein co;.tro..l:d
tbt
army of the nation, and picyrnic.t its re•ceivicg
..her pay than' that it co:dared. et,e
danger of an armY noetieFnd.ini up!ai
was the adcl.tionat power it con, erred urn diet:WM
The lo:ai simition in which this :trilby stool w. 4
4 very material consideration. Whether at Caliis et