Star.
London, England, 1829-02-25 00:00:00

was not that these- Chiba were • formed ea. offensive
principles,liet that they wets in their timbre defensive.
.
The Earl of LONGFORD regretted be bad been Ina
dated rs adopt a misrepresentation.
4..0rd• Viscount GODERICH said, as he had ab-
sta•ned'from entering into any &scission on the Catho.
Tic Question, he hoped their Lordships would excuse
him if he should venture to say a few words upon the
Bill now before them. He did not mean at all to oppose
the passing of that Bill, although he thought that the
provisions contained in it were of too rigid a nature.—
With regard to the Catholic Association, he certainly
felt that that body deserved censure. He considered
it an institution subversive of the general good, and
dangerous to the welfare of the country. That the
Association arose in consequence of the grievances that
were felt universally by the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land he believed, and he was glad to find that now, since.
those grievances were likely to have an end, that the
Roman Catholic Association has ceased to exist. lheir
meetings were now discontinued, and he hoped that the
original cause of those meetings would soon also be no
longer felt. They had heard much said against the
principle of fear, but he confessed that he saw, while'
those grievances and disabilities continued, there was,
in his opinion, Rood ground for fear; for, although
England herself might be in safety, yet, while he saw
discontent and disaffection prevail in any of his Ma-
jesty's dominions, lie thought they would do tight in
rooting out the cause of that discontent, lest a worse
evil should ensue. He thought that the claims of the
Roman Catholics were just and right. Justice as well
as necessity called for redress; and therefore he felt
that it behoved him to take a course directly opposite
to that which the Noble Lord who last addressed the
House so constantly and so strenuously adhered to.
Lord ELLEN BOROUGH hoped their Lordships,
were fully persuaded that nothing short of ao absolute
and imperious'necessity had induced his Majesty's Mi-
nisters to put down by this Bill the Association. He
was free to confess this Bill would not do it alone. But
mut!) was to be expected from the effect of it, com-
bined with the co-operation of the contemplated mea-
sure of grace and concession. In' point of time, it was
necessary the measure of coercion must precede that of
grace; in fact, be wished to know, could any Adminis-
tration in the present st ste of the country, and the violent
excitement of the tinses,attempt to bring forward with any
hope of success, the great measure of conciliation without
having removed in the first place popular scruples and
jealousy, by the enactment of the measure of coercion ?
No measure of coercion, independently of the projected
measure of conciliation, could possibly maintain the
peace of Ireland for any length of time. He would, in
conclusion, observe, that whatever gratification might.
be afforded to others by the circumstance, it would be
comparatively trifling compared to that which his Ma-
jesty's Ministers would fzel whenever the progress of
events should release them from the responsibility un-
der which they must labour as long as they weresrmed
with the strong powers sought by the enactment of the
Bill before their Lordships.
Lord MELBOURNE entered at some length into
the defence of the measures of the Irish Government

during the last few years, particularly whilst he bad
filled the important office of Secretary to the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland. He was persuaded if this mea-
sure was not followed up by one of grace and favour,
it wou'd fall altogether short of pacification or con-
ciliation of the Irish Catholics. It was trtut they might
'devise means of paying down this or that, or any asso.
ciation for a time, bur it was sure to break out again.
because the source of their discontent Was oat regime?d,
by a measure erroneous in its principle. He telt it his
duty to give to the Bill, as it stood, his cordial support,
as part of a system which he trusted would have the
best influence on the future condition and well-being of
that part of our empire.
The Earl of MANSFIELD believed there never had
been known an instance of an association of a -mote
alarming and dangerous nature, fostered 'as it were
within the State, thin the Catholic Association of Ire-
land. After it had been found that ail the means
resorted twunder the common law of the land were
inadequate to put down such an association, it became
Parliament to intrust. more than ordinary powers to
his Majesty's Ministers, to enable them to effect that
most desirable and indispensable object. The evil now
complained of had originated partly in the remissness
of Government -with respect to the Catholic body, and
still more in the impunity which the political leaders
there bad been so long suffered to enjoy. With respect
to another Bill which it was understood to be the
intention of the Noble Duke at the head of the
Government to propose, he (the Earl of Mansfield)
would not form any conjectute or attempt an anti-
cipatiou of its contents, but contented himself
with saying, that when that measure came be.
fore their Lordships, he would consider- it with his
best attention; and he entertained a confident hope
that, as his opinions were unaltered on the subject of
Roman Catholic diva' ilities, so his vote, notwithstanding
the force of recent examples, would be in complete
unison with his reviousle expressed sentiments. Noble
Lords bad been recommended :o repose with unlimited
COLfidence on the Noble Duke (Wellington); and if it
were merely a reliance upon- the good fortune that ge-
nerally attacked • to that distinguished individual that
was required, no man could have a more implicit, he
had almost said, superstitious confidence in the N.bble
Doke than himself; but, brilliant as had been the for-
tunes of that illustrious person in his military capitally,
he (the Earl of Mansfield) feared that his political suc-
cess, in this instance at least, would cot equal his former
triumphs. It he could believe that the Bill for the ad-
mission of Roman Catholics to Parliament would con-
tain such conditions as the Catholics would not accee t,
and that the evil could be thus put off for a little, then
he would not be satisfied, for. such a Bill could not pau
ithnut an abandonment of the principle of the ex-
clasion f the Roman Catholics from Parliament, which
he considered an essential principle of our Protestant
Constitution.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that having
already troubled their Lordships once thin evening with
an rept ession of his sentiments on this subject, he would
not now detain the House for any length of time, nine
particularly to adverting to a measure not at present
before Pailiament,tut which be should have the honour
hereafter to submit to its consideration. He could as-
sure the Noble Lards that when this measure was
brought forward, their Lordships might rely on it they
would find it brought forward in such e manner by his
Majesty's Miniesees, and so complete in itself, as to be
calculated, to attain its objects without any of the
drawbacks or inipediments to its operation which his
-Noble friend bad adverted to. He now rose principally
for the purpose of assuring the Noble Lord that he was
very much mistaken it he suoposed that serious efforts
Asti not been made by his Majesty's Government, in
'she c-urse of last year, to suppress and put an end
Co an Association of which the Noble Lord and every
body else complained. The fact was, caws were sub.
mined not only to the Crown lawyers in Ite'and, but to
the legal advisers of the o,..Setbll3oot in this country,

I with a view to ascertain whether -any steps could .be:
taken under the existing law, the. Convention Act, or
the common lavoicif the lend, to put down the R ,man
Catholic Association? and the result of the opinions
the law .officers of .tbe Crowe was to produce a con.
viction on the minds of his hltjesty's setvants that it
would not be judiCioos to make any attempt to proceed
against the Association. Under the circumstances of
the case, Ministers had no alternstive, except to come.
down to Parliament, and ask it to invest his Majesty
with new powers, to enable• him to suppiess this
body. In the course of the address which he hod made
t their Lordships, on the occasion of moving the second
reading of the Bill now before the House, he had stated
the circumstances attending the measure adopted for
the suppression of the Catholic Association in 1825, and
also mentioned the causes of its failure, which arose,
not only from the deficiency of the law, but from the
'division subsisting in the Government and the Par-
liament on this subject, and the difference of opinion
existing betsseen this and the other House of Pattie.
spent on all questions Meting Ireland. These
divisions, which. in his opinion had more than any
thing else occasioned 'the existence of Vie Roman
Catholic Association, and c•intiiblued to the growth
of the evil complained of in that country—an evil,
which 'yenned,. placed Ministers tauter the necessity
of considering the whole stare of Ireland, and WA
commending the adoption' t f measures necessary to
being it to what he might call a state of civilized
society—those divisions were productive of the most
injurious effects. Nothing was to be feared in die
way of rebellion, nothing in the way of foreign war, or
of any of those dangers calculated to create well.
grounded apprehensions of this sort in the minds of his
Majesty'S Government; but the state ► f society was not
w be. remedied by any other means than representing
to his Majesty the necessity of recommending Parlia-
ment to take into consideration the whole state of I.e.
land, with a view to the removal of R man Catholic
disa'bilities. These reasons induced him (the Duke of
Wellington) and others of his Majesty's Ministers to act
as they did, and influenced them in the recommenda•
tion they had submitted to his Majesty previous to the
meeting of Parliament on this subject, which recom-
mendation his Majesty had been graciously plea ed to
adopt; and accordingly the subject was introduced in
the Speech from the throne.
Lord CALTHORPE observed, it had been said that
the Roman Catholic Association was the offspring of the
resistance that had been offered to the Roman Catholic
Clairol, and he did not deny that fact; but that was
only a part of the truth. The strength of the Catholic
Association was derived from the circumstance o' tine
resistance to the Roman Catholics being not only con-
sidered by themselves as a grievance, but from its
being declared to be such by a considerable part
of the Legislature. With respect to the inevnt
he felt sorry, considering the ungracious aspect it
amused, that Ministers had had recourse to it. He
could not but regret, that many Petitions presented
on this subject bad been brought forward in such a
way, as if it were the intention to overawe Par-
liament in its decision upon it. Though he would
not wish to obstruct or retard the expression of public
opinion, yet, considering the nature of this question,
and the peculiar opportunities which Parliament
possessed for considering it, and the number of-persons
of every different shade apolitical sentiment who had
concurred there in supporting it, he thought the sub-
ject in question one of all others the best fitted for Par-
liament to come to a decision on. He had asiittle doubt
that the decision would be favourable. and that when
once made, it would be received with universal assent
and acquiescence.
Lord REDESDALE thought it his duty to oppose
the Bill, because it stated that an Association described
in the Speech from the Throne, and in the preamble to
the Bill itself, as one totally subversive uf all or der, was
a society which the common law of the country could
ant suppress. As a lawyer, he held that position to be
utterly false. The Roman Catholic Association might
and would have been suppressed if the law had been duly
administered in Ireland. It was true there might have
been considerable difficulty in enforcing the law, but the
Irish Government never tried to do so. He could not per.
mit the Bill to pass into a law without entering, his pro-
test in the journals against the pi inciples which tt involv-1
ed—namely, that an Association such as that in question
was got contrary to and punishable by the common
law of the land. One further observation—the Asses-.
ciation was only a tool in the hands of the Roman
_Catholic priesthood, and except the latter could be
kouipet into a state of obedience and submission to
the Government, attempts like the present were per-'
firctly• useless. He must take every. opportunity
of censuring the enormoes power possessed by the
Irish priesthood,—a power abvstut-ly Without con.
Afoul- here,—a power acting under f rsign irfluence
Against the law of the land and the spirit of the
Constitution. Unless the Noble Duke had some
measure of coercion in view against the priests,
every other measure which he could devise for the be-
ar& of Ireland most be null and veld. With respect
40 the Bill passed in 1825, for the suppression of the
Roman Catholic Association. it was, undoobtedly, a
eery tiolish Bill, and the. Association told the Govern.'
mint it' was a vs ry foolish Bill. The Noble and Learned
Lord concluded by again expressing his determinatiOn,
tO place on the Journals of the House a statement of the
roots& on which he bad resisted the Bill, which con-
Mond an absolute libel on the common laseof the land.
The Earl of ELDON said he would take an early
opportunity of perfectly satisfying every body that it
was not his fault that while he was Chancellor the corn
axon law of the land had not been resorted to, for the
purpose of putting down the Roman• Catholic Associa-
tion. He preferred postponing the proof to another cc-
cation, as a Noble Lord, whom he could wish to see
present whe' be introduced the subject, was not then
sa his lace.
ThepS was then read

. a _ sod passed.
Adjoerned at a Quassia Pass Erma dli Thursday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Colonel =THORPE presented two Petitions from Marla
against the Wickeant Navigation &U.—Referred to the Committee
on the SU
Lend LOWTHER moved for leave to bring in a 1111 to make
a Rall-ruad between Carlisle and Newcastle.—Leave :dusted.
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Sir R. VYVYAN presented several Petitions, from
Pen:ince, Truro, Bothnia, Launceston, and several
other parishes in the county of Cornwall, against con-
cession to the Roman Catholics.. The Petitions were
signed by between eight and nine thousand persons,
freeholders and other inhabitants of the county of
Cornwall. In the prayer of these Petitions he (Sir R;
Vyvyan) concurred. They came not from illiterate
and unenlightened persons, but from a community well
informed in religion, and which had the advantage of,
the burn( tines of Wesley
.and other eminent teachers.
The petitioners were persons qualified to form a judg.-
ment upon this important !question.. They were .att
desirous of excluding any class of their feUoStrsubjectie,
from the advantages' of eiVII-aiid"rilitgiOns liberty;
they were not anxious to prohibit 'toy person's- frtm-
.,

tbird tieu

worshipping their Gs, in whatever manner they sight
think proper, but they were _adverse to. an,
ft ingement being made on the Constitatlr a t t let g,
by t'se admission a t Roman Catholics to political I
power Ile depict iced the doctrine that had bests ptopu
gated soinewle-re, that there was anything effecting thc
tights of 'the Therms:l to prevent the admission 0/
Roman Catholics, if Parliament, the Cunene and till
Supreme Authorities.in the Empire should tutu, in
the extensMb of political power to them. At the saint
time the Petitioners, with whom he concurred, had a .
tight to rarest their adverse opinion to such comes.,
sion. They were unwilling to sanction the admission
of persons who acknowledged, as the Roman Catholictl
did, an aethotity superior to the King, and the elie,
fence of a power on earth between their King and
their Gon(Hear, hear). The Honourable Meta*
wive. ded to express his admiration m f the Duke id
Wellington; but great as was his admitatiln of bh
talents and gratitude for his services, he should ant
dictate to the peoi le. H was surnen e, it *45 testa
in his authority as Minister. The Administration
was regulate., by the “ sic volo, sic itsheo,"
that Illusttious Duke. After the conversions *hid) :I
had ve. y recently taken place upon this 'geed
question in the minds of Minis,* s and of othint
disclaimed all personal allu ion), lie owned for his
part, he had lost the confidence he had in the honant of
public men. The c',anges which had t.,ken 'slice could
only be put down to the accoent, as they heit ben by
a Right Honourable Gentler:l in (Mr. flOisson), tf
miraculous conversions. There were some persons. he •
would add, not the Government—but be bel.eved there
were some persons who were joined in thar conspiracy
to crush tisoliberves el the people, which commenced
shortly after the f.4:1 1 llo,..sparte, and 'which prevailed
from that day to- the 'present moment, plincspally in el
Fiance and in other C. thislic count, eel.. This conspi.
racy had been fosiered by the Jesuit.—an able Class of
men, who were beatified all over the cominent, and a
portion of which body was e‘tablisi e.t in this courtly
(Hear, hear).—educating some of the risers Catholic
Nobility and Gentry, who were to he. if the proposed
measure of Concession took place, 'inure Members of e
that House. The Hon Isiah!, Member dated tje corn.
mrncement of this conspiracy,. in which he stated the
Jesuits to be principal actors, to the Congressof Vienna •
—it had continued during the Congress 4:f („sybech,
and lastly its spirit had been manifested at Verona.. The
Honour able Member, in conclusion, gave notice that on
some future occasion, if not taken up el some other
'Honourable Member, he would bring before the.Huine
`the consideration of the Jesuits' euethlishmeits in this
.counity.-0.4 the question that the petition lie br ru• ht up, `.
Mr. PEND.IRVES differed entirely fiom his Hon.
colleague on the subject of the on nimity of the county •
of Cogswell upon this que lion. He behoved that ihe •
wealth and intelligence of that aunty were einuely
favourable to Catholic Emancipation. He.thought that
this tact appeared even Item the statement of his Hon. '
colleague. who had admitted that the Petitions pre-
sei.ted from Cornwall upon the subject wet, signed by .
only eight or nine thousand persons out of a popslation •
ot 2.50,000. If the feeling in she county was so strong
as the Honourable Member had asserteds why• had not a
county. Meeting been called? The Hon. Member then
.went into some details concerning the Meeting which had
been hatchets open the subject,and stated that in one plow
where &petition lay for signatoreo picture wasezhibited
representing the Catholics of Ireland in the act of burning
a con•idetable number of the Protestants. Two men had•
been brought before a Magistrate for turnip ste.ling,
and the fact was clearly proved. The examination had
been conduited in the office of the attorney. -who. way
clerk.to the Magistrates, and agent for as getting up
of the Anti-Catholic Petition. and the men who had been .
convicted of felony were solicited to sign, and did sign
the Paition after conviction. He thought that themass t
of the people in Cornwall, it not excited by the means
to which recourse bad been hat!, were well content to !
leave the question in the hands of the Government sod •
Parliament, convinced that, if the Roman Catholics.
should be admitted to political power, such securities
would be provided as would scenic the stability and • •
integrity of the Established Church.
• Istr.BULLER said he felt convinced that the majority
et the property and intelbgenee of theetipoty of Cornwall, as of
every other county in England, was favourable .to couceviim.—
Great energising had been made in that county to raise theme Popery
my, but ft was received with contemptand ridicule by the yeomanry.
Mr. HUSKISSON said. his m tive in ii.eng was to
eddies' himself to she last topic of the Hon. Gentleman's speck.
He seemed. to think that the question aftecsipg the Unman Ca..
drake was not to be measured merely in reference to Ireland,
but shmild be viewed as an European question, and was, in fact,
only part of a general conspiracy commenced at Vienna. It was r
uir,k4; 'true, that at the Congress or Vienna it had been laid
downhan' adore' principle, which in haute ought to regulate
European States, that no civil disqualifications should be grounded
en religious differences of opinion. This principle was subsequently
acted upon in almost slimy part of Europe. It was recognised 1
in the-German States, and in that kingdom of Hanover more
immediately subject to the Illunarchy to whom eft lot; they
would. he trusted, tte• Indebted •here for a, similar blessiogr
It was possible that the Ministers of some great Ahmed/
might net be very friendly to the primaries of dem and mews
liberty. bemthet the very. sante persons wso. were said to be en.
gaged hit Coosoiracy against these principles shostid be desloooate
extend them to the Roman 'Catholics of beano, appeared soma
what contradictory. He could assure the Hon. /Umber (Sir
Vyvyan) that in France the party who cheit,hed the drlseats, who •
were &skims* to subvert the chatter,.and to get rid of fr.)
titans, that very party was the only sine in France which saes oidi •
regret the attempts which were now in progress to pacify
by extending to its /initiation the full benefits oftbe C.onstiturit
This he stated advisedly—(Heir)—and be would add that the party
In France which was moat desirous to keep the power df.the Pope
within due ilmlikand to discountenance the Jesuit'. were nig party..
who heard with the greatest delight of what was now going to W
the Width Parliament with reference to the Catholic. of Imbed.
• Sir• R. VIVIAN said, that at 'the Mee ing alluded
to by his Ilenourattle Colleague, though the Prtnion was at Ire
signed by only the two Clergymen, it subsequently obtained the'
Moistures 40 the respectabk inhabitants of the wish.
The Psalms. fourteen in number. were then read,„ •
'Tar R. VYNYAN said,. that in Musing that itbese
Petitions bir Sid on the table. he would take that opponent! a
saying that. although no Meeting of the County was caked, k did
not arise from any apprehension of defeat. There was a AWN( e
at the County/roma, in odd& IS Magistrates attended. :Then
were two other Maghtrees friendly to concession who opposite:
Petition, int she/ failed. He Was glad to hear what had fallen
the- Kight•Hen. Gentleman ( Mr. Haskieson) with respect to the .14s-
wits and mimetic institutions.. A measure to prevent any tblegn
that nature Weald remove one of his great objections.. Ho concurled
in what had fallen from the Ho. Gentleman near him (Malailer).
No penes (Wild his se foolish as to suppose that the Doke of
Norfolk, andadwr educated persons of that costunnoloa,. held ibe
same opinions so the lower classes, or as the Catholks of Clam
Mary's time. site did not hesitate- to say gut be steed be I**
!Hippy to sotionan Catholic Peers resume their mats in she lAN
HAM of Pallaisitit It was their right to sit there ; but the aces
wasfiliterentinlillo Moue—(Hear, bear)—tin which metals to&
gledess • to cootie &person to a seat. He maraca
Toy mock that lira step taken in eke way .of comes*" was
no the mamba a atbeilc Peers to diet. seats. This weskits,*
been far better than td take the nation by surprise. With roped
*te ML Vilkk •and- Ms. Goverunteit he should only say, Wooed'
alight have been Its views. the f3sverninent of this country was is
Waite and friendly ioentuden'veitit it.
Mr. HUSRMSON Mid he had expressed no °pipit*
44 M. Vilielealiovalinktent, or of obi Other. What herald was
grounded merely on his obeervadoits of pamlognvents while on the
Coed:kat.. nth* Hossoemble Athena mlied in French society.
k *odd be Impolitic for Whot toobserve that the kliegs ef
fba lilohls were •
ttle4rOka a COI* glikClPfd°l6 - •
.neoffered pillittst. • . • •
• • Idr. rEND X CYO presented thin Pathless ia facer
....1

•

; *dee!' to b
• M,. EGE
it Chester at
The 'meth
Mr. GO
• . Tiotroorable 1
sows present
rowed the .
or the county
IMMO, were I
racier or ibe
t►ere were Ai
of very tench
deprecate the
• sod contest&
"tire ready ti
• forward by h
to Leland ill
trued with as
Mr. LEY
• who bad prey
to the petition
denied that tht

. • runty; trill
ine,ting must
souuty (Mr
. Who of the Ni
Sint, eft bide
tiles residotts
• eeediatig bad th
Del; but (cot
• ' * Sedan rips ti in
in favour of co
the (trilla v.
Cbaiter) eras t,
Mr. 1-IAI

Inhabitants of
• - biding io cliff%
dinverous 'fat
Ilicrence of

:.• • ;logber Mut'
tics of the Jia
di/natured, and
ft. they world
item in Irelant
it • toes bodily In

Melt two pros
' Colonel Roc
supported the
• CM the mut
issued foe Mt
Truro, at mu
Tomlye, Rao.
I.nrd MM
outs of The, fo
Suffolk, spina
Mr.
the palish of I
Mr. WRIIN
Inhabitants a
l'.rishes of At
▪ .nie ctointy.
Mr. BOHR
of Newcastle
Catholick.
Mr. LI.OY
from the lithal
also two I'utin
peal of the Bulb
verally orderer
Mr. BAST.
Clergy, Freebt
sg 'lust say fur
Member said,
ousearrtd in ti
(erred to its it I
&r THO
many of his ft
retitiOft. It p
alumnus, fur h
was agreed on
dewily decisive
In Noose of
petition mss
lion hi that Ile
Mr: lIOL

spectabllitt
satistacston•to I
•' , frb• *Me of a
. taken_s factiou
anal &bowled'
able awn, or le
Lod EB,
throush the co
against the Cr
one. Nothing
forts lad been
of the. King at
bas anew pro,
titer they wo%
delusions nun
of the county
was so clamor
the Member
be had sivon .•
vindication of

Mr. LOF
therno* of it
on the part of
courtly late,
there was nu
hisbett respect
the Catholic a
he addressed tl
bearing.
Sir T. AC
Mouse a lktlti
tended it, was
Mouse. It ws
Jhoolitn (atni
. ' thotissod two
11110 Pt the only
attempted to
'thiguisllid for i
Pethrtur tilt rid
pf else etougly, a
tad 110 ot tbe C
.16 the seirohat
awasitre which
The reads's,
• • .The iante fit
effect front the
.11rint ed. '
Sir T.' LET]
purity
',Whose ticork
' Mr. Tit AN'
' front Morcott,
IConhamprotisl
Mr.WIVI I

spravirg 'muse'
Alr. OUNC
shire, slanrd
sheiks. The r

tespectahfht
. Womb "corm
1 Mi. O'N
Nawr roosts
=r
d. Tt
II 'ohm
';deetefternts.
'WNW, or anti
loicrover, how
, dieklinatares
avents.pi the ii
`llloutio-tilt to tt
of loser with
iras with Opt N
people of Hall
daft a woad 1
elahna from ill
that town NM/
Lord. NUG,
betweeh hho at
Ilr. O'NEU
bay, odd so.
Mr. DUNC
W dined the
Ostsjoskas a do
snooty of York
Lird 1. RUI
%odes, Kayla
Preleatant Dias
Hoene et the
1""g aveltter fro
Bod