Star.
London, England, 1821-05-05 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY then moved
the Order of the Day for the House going into a
Committee of Supply.
Mr. F. BUXTON wished to postpone the second
reading of the Forgery Punishment Bill till the 16th
instant. He hoped, as he now gave way to the No-
ble Marquis, the same indulgence would be given to
him on the day in question, and that he would not
then be charged with having delayed this subject to
too late a period of the Session.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY assured the
Honourable Gentleman, that, as far as he was con-
cerned, the Honourable Gentleman should meet with
no impediment in his future consideration of this and
the other Bills on the subject of our Criminal Laws.
Colonel DAVIES then moved for the Salaries and
Emoluments of various persons holding situations in
the Customs:—Ordered.
Dr. LUSHINGTON moved for a number of Pa-
pers connected with the Slave Trade.—Oi dcred.

EUROPEAN POLITICS.

On the Motiou-that the ()add of the Day be now

•

.
\ Aar • .I\X

vad for the House to resolve itself into a Committee
pof Snpßlyi
CHINSON rose, pursuant to notice,
•
to offer so re observations on the passing events- in
Europe, calculated, as he thought. materially to in-
fluence the state of this country. It had been inti-
mated to him, that the course he was about to pursue
would interfere with the motion which a Noble Lord
near him (Lord William Bentinck) was about to
make with respect to Sicily. He did not think it
would ; but if it would have the effect of interfering
with that motion in the smallest degree, he would
most readily withdraw it. He begged to remind the
House, that when the affairs of Naples 'were lastl
brought under its attention, Ministers had distinctly
'
declared that they had not interfered in the matter
at issue between Austria and Naples. As far as the
declaration of Ministers went, it appeared that though
they did not express any approbation of the conduct
of Austria, yet they said.enough to convince him and
many others in the country, that their feelings and
wishes were not neutral. They strongly betrayed the
bias of their minds, notwithstanding their unbounded
assurances of forbearance, .by, their constant and de-
termined abuse of the party
.by whose activity the
spirit of liberty had been spread throughout the ha-
Lan States. They asserted repeatedly, and pledged
themselves for the truth of that assertion, that the
views of Austria were not directed to aggrandize-
ment, but to the s:rfety of her own dominions. At
that time there appeared to be working throughout
Italy, and nowhere more ardently than in Naples, a
spirit that would have, to all appearance, been suffi-
cient to.counteract any aggression of Austria on the
left of the Po. There was then some excuse for the
resolution of Ministers not to interfere with the
two Powers between whom an explosion was threat-
ened.. Out now the aspect of affairs in Italy was very
different indeed. The Austrian troops were over-
running the provinces of that portion of the Conti-
nent: Sardinia was prostrated before them ; and, to
improve the prospect, a body of Russian troops was
marching through the Austrian dominions, for the
purpose of supporting Austria. What! did Austria
want the assistance of Russia ? Was she indeed so
forlorn, so utterly incapable of coping with the Ar-
' mies of Italy—so completely overwhelmed by re-
peated defeats, as to stand in need of a reinforcement
of Russian auxiliaries? Let the House mark how
woefully the aspect of affairs had changed in Italy.
Let them look to Greece, now in a state of ferment—
'let them look to the situation of Spain, which was com-
pelled to desert some of her most respectable citizens,
and its Government obliged to declare Martial Law.
Under this altered condition of affairs, would the
Noble Lord think himself justified in remaining quiet
any longer, and suffer a tyranny to establish itself in
Europe, without at least one attempt to prevent it?
It was true, the entering upon a new war would be
highly inauspicious for this country ; but would the
country be satisfied to remain inactive, and run the
risk of seeing a military tyranny consolidated in
Europe, to whose power they might themselves at
no distant time become the victim ? If Russia seized
upon Constantinople, and gained ascendancy in the
Mediterranean, what security would the Noble Mar-
quis give for the liberties of Europe ? He beheld with
jealousy the acts of the Allied Sovereigns.. He
wished to speak of them with respect as the Allies of
Great Britain. He knew the people, and the armies
under their authority were brave and deserving, but
he could not view the policy of their Cabinets (and
no farther did he extend his animativersions) without
alarm.. He was not demanding anything unpreceden-
ted in our history when he urged the propriety of this
Government's interfering with the concerns of other
countries, when they saw in their conduct anything
tending to the injury of the rights and liberties of
other nations. The Hon. Gentleman referred to the
wars in the time of William the Third and Queen
Anne, which were undertaken expressly to preserve .
the balance of power. In the case of Nootka Sound,
the ground of our arming was then stated by Mr. 1
Pitt to be the preparations which Spain was at that
time making ; and in the year 1791-2 we were armed 1
for fourxen months, in order to prevent Russia from'
taking possession of Oczakow. The Honourable
Gentleman referred to the speeches of several Mem- 1
bets of both Houses, particularly one of Lord Gren-
ville, with respect to the last-mentioned circum-
stance, in order to slew that it was their opinion,
that interference was justified in cases where the dan- 1
ger was merely remote to this country. He main-
tained that it was the policy of this country to enter
into a treaty offensive and defensive with Spain, in
case a single soldier entered into her territory for hos-
tile purposes ; and, further, that we ought to make it
known to France, that if they permitted a soldier of
the Allies to cross her territory to enter Spain, that
such a permission would be taken by Great Britain
as a declaration of war. The designs of Russia
against the liberties of Europe, it would be always in
the power of Great Britain to stop, as long as she
commanded a sovereign Navy. No matter in what
quarter of the Continent Russia was triumphing
let England, as it was in her power, block up the
Russian ports, and she would speedily reduce the
Emperor of that extensive country to call back his
devouring hordes, and submit to terms of peace.--
Let England put France in good humour, and let
the two countries unite for their common security.
A moment passed, and i, would be, perhaps, too late.
But he feared that Russia and Austria were acting
after the precedent of the Noble Lord at Venice,
• Pa-
ris, and Aix-la-Chapelle; he feared that those Powers
might, with good reason, turn round to the Noble
Marquis, and remind him of the proceedings at Ha-
nover—the annexation of Belgium to Holland—the
plunder of Saxony—the destruction of Wirtemberg—
the wreck of different States of Italy—the breach of
faith with Genoa—the conduct of Naples to Sicily.
Russia might thus remind the Noble Lord that he
had acted upon the principle which she now would
act upon herself, and say, with good reason, that she
was folios% ins up the principles of the Noble Lord in
artempting to wrest from Spain her newly-acquired
libertic The Noble Lord, therefore, was placed in
a critical situation. His principles, since the battle
of Waterloo, were in opposition to the liberties of
Europe. Ile begged to know where. as the peace,
the results, the happiness of the world, which the
Noble Lord pramiscd would result from the peace
that was ratined at Paris? Ile begged
_pardon for
thus intruding on the attention of the House, and
concluded by moving, as au Amendment, that the;

' House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole',
House, to consider the state of the nation as connected
with European politics.
Sir R. WILSON seconded the motion.
The Mequis of LONDONDERRY said he could
not help objecting to the mode of proceeding adopted
by the Hon. Member who had introduced this sub-
ject. Nothing, however, which had been urged in
the course of the Hon. Member's speech, rendered it
necessary for him to enter, at that moment, into the
details of the subject. When he came down to the
House, he was under the impression that the House
was to enter into a discussion on the N.ivy Estimates,
and, when such a question stood upon the paper, he
thought it improper that they should be diverted
from it, and dragged into an inquiry into the state
of the nation with reference to foreign politics.—
When he heard of the Hon. Member's motion, he
thought that he (Mr. Hutchinson) intended to chew
that the existing state of Europe would enable us to
dispense with a considerable portion of the Navy
Estimates. But instead of hearing it recommended
that a great portion of those Estimates should be cut
down, he could not help feeling some surprise at find-
ing an accusation made against him (the Marquis of
Londonderry) which would form the ground of im-
peachment, for not having called upon the House,
by a Message from the Crown, to grant such addi-
tional sums as would place the country in a situation
to resist the dangers with which she was threatened.
He must, however, with all respect, decline the alter-
native which the lion. Member had given him. The
lion. Member had also given him much advice, and
no doubt with the best possible intention ; he recom-
mended entering into treaties offensive and defensive
with France and Spain, blockading the greater part
of the northern ports, and many other measures of
a very salutary nature no doubt, but which were, he
must say, wholly thrown away upon him (the Mar-
quis of Londonderry). He felt it necessary also to
decline all political advice, when he found it came
from an Hon. Member who did not appear to see
the political state of Europe With sufficient clearness
to enable him to make up his own mind upon it.—
He felt convinced that Ministers would act with great
rashness if they followed advice so tendered to them.
Ile never knew it to be the Parliamentary course to
goad Ministers into any act, or any explanation, by
such an irregular proceeding as that adopted by the
Honourable Member. If the Honourable Member
would allow him (the Marquis of Londonderry) to
suggest to him (Mr. Hutchinson) and his friends a
hint which he had before thrown out, he would re-
commend to them, not to be so very precipitate in
giving their advice and opinions upon such subjects.
When the affairs of N'aples were last discussed in
that House, he heard several statements made upon
which he declined giving any opinion. Heforebore,
at the moment, from stating what line of conduct
ought to be pursued by this or any other country.
It now appeared, that many of the statements then
made were fallacious. Whatever might be the corn-
ments and opinions now pronounced, he would re-
commend to the Honourable Mover and his friends
to change their course—to act a little more upon
realities, rather than indulge in speculating upon
possibilities—or rather upon impossibilities. By
this means much of the time and attention of the
House would be spared. He did not presume to
say what would be the result of the present events
on the Continent, but he would caution the Ho-
nourable Member on the third Bench (Mr. llutchin-
son) against assuming, that because the Russian
Army had been put in motion in consequence of
certain events in Piedmont, they were therefore to
proceed to other countries, and for other purposes.
Ile would not take upon himself the task of prophe-
sying what would happen, as it was at best a useless
office; but he would say, that there being at present no
evidence of such a fact as the advance of the Russian
Army, it was wrong to assume, and then argue upon it.
He would state to the House how it was that the Rus-
sian army was put in motion. It was known that an
insurrection similar to that of Naples, which had been
much panegyrized by several Members opposite, had
taken place in Piedmont. It was said that both in-
surrections had taken place in the cause of liberty.
He never could dignify by the word liberty the at-
tempts of a military body to resist their lawful So-
vereign, and tear down and destroy the most sacred
institutions of the country, without knowing or caring
by what those institutions were to be replaced. Of
this description was the insurrection in Piedmont.—
The King of
.Sardinia resigned in favour of his bro-
ther, and his nephew was placed at the head of the ;
Provisional Government. In a few days, he also was
forced to retire from his Regency. Tile first act of I
the new Government was a declaration of war against
Austria. Without entering into the motives el this
proceeding, it was sufficient to state that this declara-
tion of war originated with those favoured and pane-
gyrized Children of Liberty. What then was to be
done ? The King of Sardinia, under such circum-
stances, felt himself compelled to apply to Austria
for assistance. Austria applied to Russia for support
against this Insurrectionary Government, in conse-
', quence of which, a large body of Russian troops were
put in motion, and actually entered the Austrian fron-
tier. But the circumstances which induced this move-
ment having changed, did it necessarily follow that
those troops were to continue their route? The con-
sequence of this movement was, that the Insurrec-
tionary Government of Piedmont ceased to exist ;
but it was suppressed more immediately by the
troops of the King of Sardinia, as only a very small
part of the Austrian troops had been brought up.—
If the Emperors of Austria and Russia entertained
the intentions imputed to them by the Honourable
Member, of wishing to overturn the liberties of Eu-
rope, would they have acted in the manner they have
done? It was a fact, that General Bubna, who com-
manded the Austrian forces, had orders to enter Pied-
mont as little as possible, and above all, to avoid ap-
proaching the capital. Now this savoured as little
as possible of a wish to overturn the liberties of Eu-
rope. He was sure the House would forgive him for
protesting against the introduction of a motion which
prevented them from entering on one of the most im-
portant discussions which could come before them.
He was as anxious as any Member that every pos-
sible economy iloul.l be practised, and with that
view he was desirous that the Public Estimates should
undergo the closest investigation in all their branches.
He would repeat a declaration Which he had made
on a former occasion, that if those Powers were to
inaoitest any inclination or intention of aggrandising

themselves at the expense of Europe; he would be
the first to propose the interference of this country.
We ought to look with jealousy to foreign Powers.
but we ought now to recollect that we were in a state
of peace, and that it was our interest not to disturb
that peace, by unnecessarily meddling with Conti-
nental affairs. He was not aware of any circum-
stance which could render such interference neces-
sary at present. He would not say that circum-
stancesmight not arise which would make our inter-
ference necessary, and should such a period arrive,
we would be better able to meet it by preserving as
long as possible our present state of internal and ex-
ternal tranquillity. The motion of the Honourable
Member' was foutaled upon an imperfect view of the
political state of Europe, and 41serefore he felt bound
to oppose it.
Sir ROBERT WILSON said, there was too much
reason to believe that the Noble Marquis and his Col-
leagues delighted in the destruction of freedom and
the revolutionary principle in Europe. There was no
cause for despondency because the people had de-
serted that cause of liberty which they had at first so
nobly espoused. The Austrian Army occupied Naples
ingloriously, and they knew that the elements of de-
struction surrounded them. They had called to their
aid scaffolds and executioners, but that would cause
them to keep at least 4.0,000 men in Naples, 60,000
in other parts of Italy, and, in consequence of the
Greek insurrection, they must have 80,000 men on
their Turkish frontiers. Austria, therefore, had no
cause for triumph ; nor had the ft iends of liberty any
cause for despondency. He knew his Hon. Friend
did not wish to involve this country in war, but only
to support that character which she had hitherto
maintained in Europe.
Colonel DAVIES wished to know from the Noble
Marquis, whether he had any communication with
the Russian Government, so as to know that that
Army was only intended for Italy ?—for the conduct
of those wretches had been so dastardly, that he cared
not what became of them.

The Marqtlis of LONDONDERRY repeated that
the Russian Army wAs sent forward in consequence
of the application of the Austrian Government.
Sir ROBERT WILSON wished to know whether
the keys of Alexandria had been sent to the Emperor
of Austria, as an acknowledgment of his Sovereignty?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had
never heard of the circumstance. The Austrian troops
had only occupied Alexandria and Novara. The
Motion was then negatived without a division.
On the Motion for going into a Committee of Sup-
ply on the Navy Estimates,
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, he had done his duty
by his country and Europe in making the Motion he
had, and calling the attention of the House to the
affairs of the present day. We ought to maintain that
high character which we now enjoyed in Europe.—
What he wished was, that France and other nations
might not be before us in the race of assisting the
friends of liberty. He wished that an armament had
been sent to blockade the Russian ports in the Baltic.
He contended that it was impossible that any one
could believe that the Russian Army could have only
moved at the suggestion of Austria, out of her fear
from the insurrection in Piedmont.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he did
not believe that the march of the Russian troops had
any connection with the state of affairs in Spain. The
insurrection of Piedmont was not of a trifling nature,
considering that the insurrection in Naples was at
that time at its highest point.
Sir ROBERT WILSON still considered the inter-
ference of Austria in the affairs of Naples, as an
aggresssion upon the latter country, and an act of
suicide towards herself.

Mr. HUME wished to place a Resolution on the
Journals, chewing a desire to approximate the Navy
Estimates to those of 1792. lie would not now en-
ter into the separate grants ; but would object to the
totals. When the House went into the Committee,
then would be the time to object to the individual,
items. The pay and provisions for the men, and the
charges of wear and tear, were kept up the same as
in time of war. The number of marines too was in-
creased ; the vote of this year was less than last year
by £380,560, but still he wished the House to con-
sider whether it was proper to keep up this establish-
ment ? We have hut 14,000 sailors, and 8,000 ma-
rines. These establishments would cost the country
£190,000 beyond the expenses of 1792. In 1813, we
had 1,000 vessels in ordinary or in commission, and
145,000 seamen and marines; and he contended that
a much greater saving should be made in our pre-
sent reduced establishment of the Navy. lie went
through a comparison of the items, and could find
no reason why there should be so little disparity be-
tween the charges of 1813 and 1821. Between those of
1792 and this year there was an increase of upwards
of four millions. He then moved, that it appeared.
that the expense of the Navy Pay Office was only re-
duced £4,000 since 1814 ; and that the total charge
for the Navy was four millions more than in 1792.
Sir G. WARRENDER hoped the time would ar-
rive when they could come to that economy so much
wished for by the Honourable Gentleman. The Ho-
nourable Member should recollect, that until 1798
the sums voted were not equal to the expenditure;
and application was obliged to he made for after
grants. The Dock-yards and other establishments
had increased greatly since 1792.
The motion was then negatived without a division.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
Sir G. WARRENDER said, that the emoluments
in the dock-yards had been reduced, and the salaries
increased. In 1792, persons having salaries of 1:100
a-year had emoluments to the amount of £1,000.
Now they had only the salaries of their office. The,
object of the Admiralty, since the peace, had been
to bring the fleet into such a state of efficiency as
was necessary for the security of the country, and
he was happy to.say that this object had been nearly
effected. Before the close of the year several Com-
missioners of the Dock-yards and Civil servants
would be reduced; and one of the Dock-yards also.
—He moved a sum of £2,489,000 for the ordinary
estaklishment of the Navy.
Mr. BERNAL expressed his extreme pleasure at
the prospect of approaching reductions ; but he hoped
the Hon. Baronet would remodel the present vote.
Sir G. WARRENDER said, he had proposed the
vote as it had been usual ; but he was prepared with
'another set of votes. He then withdiew his first
Resolution, and moved a sum of 1:70;5W 1.4 r
pitying
the ekpetise of the Admit Alty (h&c.

Mr. BERNAL contended that this grant w,
large, as the duties of the office had been c 04",.
ably reduced. Ile objected to two of the Lot ds
Admiralty, who he thought might be better reducti
than poor Clerks that had to support families on Clop
a-year. The Vice-Admiral of Scotland was an o sce
that might b therefore
: reduced. Ile would props
a reduction of I.:3500 in this grant.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, the Vice-Admiral
Scotland was a patent office, and his continuance ;a
' office slimed him more and more the necessity of the
Lay Lords of the Admiralty. That Board partook
more of a civil than of a military capacity. %Vivo
there seas a Lord High Admiral; 1:d had never less
than six Assistants. It was necessary to lase well.
read Civilians in the Admiralty Oilice.
Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, that, conside,ing that
the country was reduced to 2 state of extreme po.
vcrty ; and that the great ships the Di itannia, the
Caledonia, and the Hibernia, if they were not eon:-
pletely water-logged, had at least six feet water in
their holds!—(dear, krar)—it became the dtty of the!
Captain, the Officers, ant: the crew, and he meant by
that metaphor the King, the Ministers, and the Re-
presentatives of the People, to look, one and all, to
the safety of each ship, and do their best to present
them from sinking !—(!leer).—lle had often heard a
said, in the speeches of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite,
that retrenchment was the only means of salvatioe
which remained to this. great and independent na.
tion—(llear).—lle did not mean to state that it was
his opinion that such was the case; but he must sir,
that he had never heard a direct answer given to the
assertion by his lion. Friend below him, the Gentles
man with the white head .I.—(CAcers axd lattglaerk
From all that he had seen of these seven Noble Lords,
two of them only were allowed to speak, the others
always acted the part of dirnim'es !—(Loud kzagi-
ter).—One of them, indeed, gets up an annual speech,,,
and then comes to the House and lets it off with great'
flippancy!—(Roars oflaughter).—Besides that speech,
he never makes another, except it be in St. James's.,
street, or wherever else he walks for the purpose of !
taking his recreation. He firmly believed, that the
business of the Board would go on equally well with
five at the Board as seven. Till the time of Lord
Grey, the salary had been only £3OOO a-year; not
that be thought that enough, bet in the event old*
First Lord holding another situation, he thought that
sufficient. A Right Hon. relative of his own (Mr.
Charles Yorke) had given up the additional L'2000!
a-year, whileheheld the place of First Lord, and not
a word was said about it—(llear, hear).—He had
been chiefly led to make these observations by hear.
ing all the management of the civil concerns of the
Navy attributed to the Admiralty, Co the disparage.
rent of the Navy Board, by whom it was performed
so honestly, so zealously, and so economically tlicar).
Mr. ROBINSON, in answer to his gallant hind
and relative (Sir J. Yorke), said it was quite new to
him that the Civilian Lords were, as it was termed,
then:mics. He (Mr. Robinson) had had the honour of
a seat at the Admiralty Board for some years, which
he had accepted at the urgent request of his Right
Hon. relative, then at the head of the Board, and he
had found himself fully employed. Far from being
sinecures, he in his conscience believed the places in
question to be most efficient and useful offices

- Sir J. YORKE said he should be sorry to have
personally hurt his Right Hon. Friend; with respect
to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Robinson), certainly
the offices in question had not been useless—(A
laugh ),—fbr after his Right Hnn. Friend had beet
cradled in that nursery of sucking statesmen, ask
had been called, he had got from thence, by a hop,
step, and jump, till .he found himself seated on the
Treasury Bench as a Cabinet Minister !—(.l laugh).
Mr. R. WARD had had the honour of sitting at the
Boat d of Admiralty for four years, and supported the
assertion of the Right Hon. Treasurer of the Navy.
Mr. CItEEVEY said, they had heard a gallon
Officer, who had sat eight years at the Admiralty
Board, declare that the two Lords in question were
useless, and a Right Honourable, who had also bee
at the Admiralty Board, declare they were ascii!.
Between them, he should judge for himself, and he
certainly could not see the use of them. lie begged
the Committee to look at the situation in which they
were placed; they were in a Committee professedly
voting supplies for the Navy, but they wereinttality
voting supplies for eight Members of Parliament—
(Hear, /sear)—triz. five Lords of the Admiralty, one
Clerk to the Board, one Treasurer, and one Comp-
troller of the Navy. He should not be turprisedif
these eight Members voted for their own salaries—
(Hear, hear)—and the Gentlemen of other Public
Departments would do the same for them as they had
done for the Gentlemen of other Boards; so that they
could tell to a farthing what reduction would be
made in the Navy Estimates, viz. exactly the same
that had been made in the At my Estimates, mak!
—(Hear, hear).—lll a plain man saw persons actin
as the trttstees of his property, voting sums to each
other in this way, he would say, " Gentlemen, 1",
are taking much better care of yourselves than ct
me." Till there was some better arrangement at
this subject, there would be no end to the waste of
public money.
Sir I. COFFIN wished to know whether the gai-
lant Officer (Sir J. Yorke) had expressed his preset
opinion of the Admiralty daring the eight years th 4
he had a seat there?—(hear, and a laugh).
Sir JOSEPH YORKE--." No man knows better
than my gallant Friend, that had I uttered such sen-
timents formerly, my stern would have been sc*D
turned to the Admiralty !"—(hear, hear).
Mr. HUME asked, if it was meant to
Lords of the Admiralty to what they had been "LE
years back ? He had heard, that the expenses of lir,
IMarines were very large, and several of the Lords °`
the Admiralty held situations in the Marines so"
were wholly sinecures.- Was'a Paymaster of Miriae:
at .1:5000 a-year, necessary for WOO wwn? Was"
meant to keep the Private Secretary of the First Lei
of the Admiralty, who was also a Commissioners
the Victualling Board? The Paymaster of '
Pensions was now superannuated, and had 14.71
a-year as his superannuation. The real rcducuo
should hare been £5OOO and not £3OOO.
Mr. CILOKER had heard with much pain the
statement of his gallant Friend, and still more :
y
explanation that had followed the speech- He
not thought that his gallant Friend (Sir J. 015
when he sat and voted with him in that House, .
sr ad
not been swayed by the dictates of his owa
but by the Lye of udice. Ile believed coat sin sa 11