Star.
London, England, 1811-01-18 00:00:00

•

PARLIAMEN2WRi PROCEEDINIS.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY, JAN. 17.
Mr. LUSHLNGTON brought up the Report of the Corn-
!since on Expiring Laws, which was ordered to lie on the table,
and to be printed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. moved, accord-
ing to notice, for the appointment of a Secret Committee, to ex-
amine what payments were ordinarily directed by his Majesty
to issue from the Privy Purse, which it might be necessary to
continue and provide for during his Majesty's illness. The mo-
tion being agreed to, he proposed that the Committee should con-
sist of the following Members :—The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, Mr. Ponsonby, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Ryder, Mr. Can-
ting, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Adam, Mr. Bathurst, and Mr. Wilber-
force ; which was also agreed to.
',the Order for calling over the House was postponed to to-
morrow.

REGENCY BfLL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
having moved the Order of the Day, for the House
resolving itself into a Committee on the Regency Bill,
Mr. HER BE lur expressed his wish to offer a few
observations before the Speaker left the Chair. After
considerable deliberation upon his part, and an atten-
tive consideration of the arguments adduced upon the
former occasion by two illustrious Gentlemen now
no more, it was with the greatest difficulty he could
make up his mind on the subject. As to the exis-
tence of any right in the Heir Apparent to the office
of Regent, it was a proposition to which he could not
accede • for a case might be conceived in which the
Heir Apparent would be the most unfit person in the
world for the situation. In the reign of Henry 11.

i

A

1
ill
.% _ .....

V

1101
4

9

1

4

II

4

SIASSe was introduced ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
;aid, that as it was thought necessary to provide that

the appointments made by the Regent
tinned until countermanded, so it api
make a similar provision in the case of
by his MajesiY. But if the Cominittee
jection to it, he would tvillingly,give it
Mr. Ponsnnby and the Anorney-Genera)
concurred in thinking it unnecessary,
withdrawn.
The sth Clause, providing for the r
the personal exercise of the Royal Authority by his
Maiesty, being read, 1
Mr. WHITBREAD objected to the commencing
expressions as too loose and general. The words he
noticed,were, " When his Majesty shall be restored
to such a state of health as to be capable of resuming
the personal exercise of the Royal Authority, and
shall have declared his Royal will and pleasure there-
upon." Those he believed were not exactly the words
adopted in 1789 ; but if they *ere, the House and
the conntry did not stand in the same situation with
respect to his Majesty now as then. If those were
the words adopted at that period, undoubtedly the
meaning was, that his Majesty would not resume the
functions of Royalty, until he was restored to a state
of mental health. But what was the fact now ? they
had it in evidence from the Physicians, that the func-
tions of Government were carried on when his men-
tal health was not restored. He hoped that the Com-
mittee would be prevailed upon by this circumstance
to adopt words distinct and definite. He therefore
would propose that the expressions as they now stood,
should be omitted, for 'the purpose
.of introducing
Ma -- restored

his own son, the then Heir Apparent, avas in actual the
I ___ following : "When his Majesty shall be .
rebellion against the Government ; would any one (to a full state of mental health, so as to be capable
contend that in that case Alie application of such a I of undertaking the personal exercise of the Royal au-
iloctrinewouldnot produce the worst of consequences? thority."
As to the two modes of proceeding by Address or by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Bill, he was induced, after much doubt and reflec. said, that he was not at all convinced by the argu-
tion, to prefer the latter under all the circumstances means of the Right Honourable Gentleman of the
of the case. If the Prince of Wales were an only son, necessity of his amendment. He had first said that
and if the Queen were not living, he would then have the words were new, but in that he was mistaken,
preferred the Address; but situated as things are at having probably looked at the printed Bill, and not
present, he thought that the proceeding by Bill was at the Bill as it was passed He (Mr. Perceval) be.
the least objectionable. With respect to limitations lieved that it went out of that House with other
upon the power of the Regent, he approved of all words in the clause, but was amended by the Lords,
those which went to provide for the full and imme. in the manner in which he had introduced it. The
dace return of his Majesty to the throne, as soon as period for discussing this question would, as he ap-
his health was restored, and he should be in a situa. prehended, be that when the clauses were brought
tion to undertake the personal exercise of his Royal' forward, directing the circumstance of his Majesty's
functions ; but at a moment of such importance as I resumption of the Royal Authority, and regulating
the present, when every thing seemed to require that ithe mode. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
the power of the Executive should be as complete as said that the House and the country were placed in
possible, he would not consent to lay further limita- a different situation now from that in which it stood
non upon the prerpgative of the Crown. He was in the year 1789. He would deny that proposition,
the more inclined to grant these prerogatives in this! they stand now as they stood then, upon the Law
instance, from the past conduct of the Prince oft and Constitution of the country • ' and that Law and
Wales, who had never been known to assume a power , Constitution provided, that if his Majecty was restored
to which he was not entitled, but, on the contrary, I. to a state of health, he was King, (1-fear, hear.) It
had conducted himself with the greatest humility. It was right to prescribe something as to the form in
was a notorious fact, that he was now only a Colonel which the notification of his Majesty's recovery should
in the army, and that at a former period his applica. be made known to the public ; but when he was re-
tion. for greater rank had been refused. Why it `stored to health he was King to all intents and pur-
should have been refused was to him unaccountable. I poses. They were precisely in the same situation as
He knew of no case, from the days of Henry all. in i in 1789. As to what had been said upon the evidence
which any Prince of Wales was prohibited from great 1 of the Physicians, that evidence might furnish an ob-
rank in the army. Henry the Fifth, when Prince of jection to the conduct of Ministers, but could in no
Wales, had high command ; Henry the Sixth, when way affect the principle of his Majesty's resumption
Prince of Wales, had high command ; and Charles of his prerogatives on recovering from his illness.—
the Second, though very young at the time, was in- , Such resumption was a matter of course.
trusted with high command in that situation also. I Mr. WHITBREAD said ,he did not deny that
From the view which he had taken of the character i when his Majesty was restored to mental health, he
of hie Royal Highness, the present Prince of Wales, should be restored to his authority—but he would say
k appeared to him, that the functions and attri- that he ought not to be restored to authority until he
butes of Royalty might with perfect security be • was restored to health. When be ccw,eiclorca the 4.oit-
trusted in his hands, subject only to such provisions . duct of Ministers from the year 1789 down to the
as might be deemed expedient to provide for their re- present mouser t, he saw the necessity that existed for
sumption by his Majesty, when capable of the fatigues stating plainly and explicitly upon this occasion. Did
of Government.. He concluded with expressing his the Right Hon. Gentleman mean to say, that from
agreement in the principle of theißill. ' the year 1789 down to the present moment, the
Mr. WHITBREAD asked, whether it was the ' Kingly functions were not exercised when his Ma-
intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancel- jesty was not in a state of mental health ? The Bill
for of the. Exchequer) to refer the Resolutions upon which he had seen was not the printed Bill, not the
which the Bill was founded, to the Committee ? It Bill as it was first brought into the House, but the
appeared to him, that the Bill in some instances dif- amended one, as it had passed both Houses ; and he
fered from those Resolutions, and he thought it of rather thought the words introduced by the Right
importance that the Committee should have an oppor- Hon. Gentleman were not to be found in it.
tunity of comparing them, and ascertaining that fact. The question being then put, the Amendment was
With this view he should move, if the Right Hon. negatived without a division.
Gentleman had no objection, that the Committee Lord MILTON proposed that the word o resump-
- should be empowered to take into its consideration the tion" should be substituted in the plaste of 66 decla-
joint Resolutions of the two Houses of Parliament, , ration," in the same clause ; but said he only threw
'upon the subject of the Regency. it out as a suggestion. .
The motion was agreed to. Mr. PONSONBY thought it better that the word
COMMITTEE ON TIM REGENCY BILL. resumption should be adopted, and wished the Right
The House having resolved itself into a Committee Honourable Gentleman would consider of it.
on the Regency Bill, Mr. I..CSIIINGTON in the Chair, , The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
the two first clauses were immediately agreed to.— I sa id, that the words were easily intelligible without
The third clause, prescribing the form of signature , any such alteration. The clause stated, .6 when his
to the Regent being read, I Majesty shall be restored to such a state of health,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ! as to be capable of resuming the personal exercise
begged leave to call the attention of the Committee . of his Royal Authority, and shall have declared his
to that point, and to state the reasons why he thought Royal will and pleasure thereupon, as hereinafter
it accessary to introduce such a provision. He was provided." The provision to which this referred,
not anxious as to what the particular signature should ' was the calling of a Privy Council by his Majesty,
be, and therefore should not pertinaciously adhere to i to whom the declaration was to be made, and not the
,the one described in the Bill, if any other was prefer.' Queen's Council.
red. Ln 1789 it was left doubtful in what signaturel Mr. PONSONBY doubted whether the clause was
the Prince of Wales should sign ; whether in his own worded according to the meaning it was intended to
or in the King's, or in his own and the King's toge. I convey. He therefore wished, that the con
edsieration
ther. Every one must know how multifarious the lof it should be postponed, that they mig have an
instruments were to which his Royal Highness would opportunity of considering it more maturely.
immediately have to affix his signature, and of course! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
how necessary it was that the signature itself should ! did not think such postponement necessary, especially
not be very long. It was upon this account that when it was considered what inconvenience it would
he proposed the one contained in the Bill, which occasion.
should have the same authority with the King's Sign Mr. PONSONBY said, that the clause referred
Manual, and by that means quiet the conscience of to an authority which was not yet determined ona,l
the Regent's powers were not yet decided, and the
Mr. Larpent, and those who felt themselves bound to
obey that authority alone. If any other form of sig-
introduction of such a clause in such an order, was
nature was preferred, he should have no objection to rather singular, if not improper.
substitute it. Mr. ADAM agreed, that the postponement of
• Mr. ADAM thought it a mere matter of etiquette, clauses was attended with great inconvenience, but if
the present clause was postponed to another part of
and recommended that they should adopt the sug-
gestions of the Right Hon. Gentleman. If it was the Bill, that would be no reason for their doing
it in another instance. It was now proposed for
hereafter found to be inconvenient they might then
Make such alterations as were necessary. the sake of perspicuity. When his Majesty was in
• The clause was then agreed to. a situation to resume his functions, he should do so ;
but it was premature to introduce a declaration to
The Fourth clause, providing for the continuance
t
of persons holding offices of places by appointment that effect there, when the clauses prescribing the
• or authority from his Majesty in office or place, until form of resumption were not yet decided on. Upon
the Regent should signify his pleasure to the contrary, these grounds he agreed in the suggestion of post-
being read, ponement.
Mr. WHITBREAD wished to know why such a Mr. YORK maintained that great inconvenience
would follow from the - -- of

subsequent so that the objee-I
order in which it stood was not con-
-11 itself contained four heads of pro.
• • .
came properly under the of the
iven to the Regent.
was then /greed to.
:use providing, that all personi hold-
, places under the appointment or mho-
_ Regent, should continue to hold them,
notwithstandtrig the resumption of his royal functions
by his Majesty, until his Majesty should dechtiihis
royal pleasure to the contrary, being read,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved, that the word " Pensions" should be inserted
after the word Places, which was agreed to.
Mr. W. WYNNE moved, that the word" Regent"
should be introduced after the words her Majesty.—
Agreed to.
The Seventh and Eighth Clauses were agreed to.
The ninth Clause, declaring that the Regent should
be deemed and taken to be a person having and exe-
cuting an office and place of trust within England,
and that he should take and subscribe such oaths, and
make and subscribe such declarations as are required
by the laws to qualify such persons to hold offices and
places of trust, being read,
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY objected to it as the
most objectionable clause in•the Bill. The effect of
it would be to make the Regent responsible. If such
a clause was to pass, saying that he was in an office
or place of trust, he must be considered like altothers,
responsible for the trust reposed in him. The effect
Constit and ke thr

of it would be to alter the itution,.. ma. .ie
person of the Executive responsible, not by its Mi-
nisters, but by itself. He stated this objection the
more, as the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
had expressed his doubt upon a former night, whe-
ther the maxim that the King could do no wrong was
applicable to the Regent. Majesty was no doubt, in
a sense, a trust from the people ; but then it was not
a recognized trust. He was sure the Committee
would not think he did wrong in expressing his se-
rious apprehensions on the introduction of such a
Clause.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that the effect of the clause appeared to him to
'be only that the Regent should qualify in a certain
Manner. In introducing this clause, he had followed
the precedent of 1789. In the sth clause of the Act
`of George the Third there was a similar provision.
In the 24Th of George the Second such a clause was
also to be found. He would therefore put it to the
Committee whether with such instances before
them, they would think it right to depart from prece7
dent ? As to the question of responsibility, if any
doubt existed on that head, it would not be settled by
the passing or rejecting of this clause. There should
be a specific enactment in order to release him. It
would be well, however, before they adopted such a
stage, to consider whether in an office unknown to the
Constitution, any subject should be considered not
responsible. There could be no doubt but the Mi-
nisters of the Regent would be responsible to Parlia-
ment, and it was to their responsability and not to that
of the Regent that Parliament would look. He could
not agree with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
that there existed any sufficient reason for the omission
of the clause.
Sir THOMAS TURTON declared his concrsr-
rence in the reasoning of his Honourable and Learned
Friend on the floor, particularly after the answer
that had been given to their arguments. He denied
that the office of Regent was-uninowu to the coon-
s, y. There were two cases of it in the Rolls of Par-
liament, in the reign of Edward 111. both without
limitation.
Mr. HENRY SMYTH spoke• in favour of the
Clause.
, Mr. TIERNEY maintained, that the clause was
at variance with the Resolution of the House. The
Resolution authorised his Royal Highness to exercise
all the prerogatives and authorities of the King ; and
would any one say, that he who was to represent the
King should be broke down to an exciseman ? (A
'laugh). If they resolved upon having such a clause,
they should send up a new Address to the Prince ot
Wales, to tell him that he must submit to those forms
which are imposed upon the meanest subjects. If as
oath was considered necessary, they might impose it ;
' but it would be well to consider who the person was
to whom it was to be proposed, and the situation he
was one day to hold in the Government.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
I said, that when he adopted the clause verbatim from
' the bill of 1789, he did not expect to be charged with
an intention to reduce the Regent to the state of an
, exciseman. (Hear, hear.) It would have been well
I had the Right Honourable Gentleman read the bill
upon which he descanted, for if he had, he would have
Ifound that what he recommended to be done, had
been done already ; he would have found in the first
clause, that full power was given to the Regent. sub-
ject to such restrictions as Parliament deemed expedi-
ent. There was no intention to introduce the ques-
tion ot responsibility. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had objected to the oath.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY here repeated the ex-
. exciseman's oath.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
continued. He would appeal to the Committee,
whether that was a fair description of the oath. (Hear,
' hear.) It was no degradation, no insult to the high
, office of Regent, to provide that there should be oaths
administered. It was no degradation that oaths
should be administered to the King himself. (Hear,
hear.) Nor was there any degradation in followin
the example of our ancestors, and doing as they had
• done before us in similar situations. He disclaimed
any intention of chewing disrespect to the Prince of
Wales, and was sure he would be believed by those
who could exercise a candid judgment. If any one
could propose words that appeared to be less offen-
sive, be had no objection to adopt them ;—but he
thought it deserved the consideration of the Commit-
tee, whether they would reject it altogether upon an
observation, which, in his opinion, was not founded ?
Mr. PONSONBY said, that there never was a
Regency in this country similar to the present, when
' the Heir Apparent to the Crown was of full a
, The words of the clause, he contended, decided the
question of responsibility ; and thought there might
have been a similar one in the former bill. It was
certainly liable to the same objection then as now, if
of - Friend's •

_ necessarily . postponement one - his Honourable acuteness had been
the clause, nor did he see any weight in the situ- is the House to notice it. He concluded with moving,
meats advanced in favour of it. Tis weds rafted as an Amendment, that the objectionable words

, I
PiIRL 1 A 111 ElV2*.d ART PA
HOUSE OF COMMONS, THU
Mr. LUSHiNGTON brought up tl
!dace on Etplrirg Laws, which was cii
and to be printed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH
ing to notice, for the appointment of a
amine what payments were ordinarily
to issue from the Privy Purse, which
continue and provide for during his M
tion being agreed to, he proposed that tl
alit of the following Members :—The
queer, Mr. Ponsonby, Lord Castioreag
sting, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Adam, Mr. B
force ; which was also agreed to.
',the Order for calling over the He
VW rrovr.
REGENCY oft
The CHANCELLOR of
having moved the Order of the
resolving itself into a Committee
Mr. HER BE lur expressed I
observations before the Speaker
considerable deliberation upon h
tive consideration of the argume
I, former occasion by two illastri
no more, it was with the greats
make up his mind on the subje
. ::. tence of any righr in the Heir 1
t ' of Regent, it was a proposition
accede • for a case might be cc
Heir Apparent would be the me
world for the situation. In th
his own son, the then Heir Lip
rebellion against the Govern=
contend that in that case'the
doctrinewouldnot produce the s
• As to the two modes of proem
Bill, he waa induced, after mt
tion, to prefer the latter under
of the case. If the Prince of W
•
and if the Queen were not livin
preferred the Address ; but sits
present, he thought that the p•
the least objectionable. With
...
upon the power of the Regent
those which went to provide fc
4., date return of his Majesty to
, ' his health was restored, and he
tion to undertake the persona
functions ; but at a moment e
the present, when every thing !
the power of the Executive she
possible,he would not consent
non upon the prerogative of
the more inclined to grant the
instance, from the past cond
Wales, who had never been km
to which he was not entitled,
. had conducted himself with th
was a notorious fact, that he vi
in the army, and that at a fors
tion. for greater rank had b
~•:. :I should have been refused was
He knew of no case, from the
I which any Prince of Wales wa
..
rank in the army. Henry the
Ir" . ' Wales, had high command ;
Prince of Wales, had high o
the Second, though very yours,
• trusted with high command
mi. c From the view which he had
of his Royal Highness, the pi
11111 k appeared to him, that the
butes of Royalty might wit
trusted in his hands, subject e
as might be deemed expedient
sumption by his Majesty, whet
. , of Government.. He concluC
agreement in the principle of
Mr. WHITBREAD aske
:•:' intention of the Right Hon. G
for of the. Exchequer) to refer
which the Bill was founded,
appeared to him, that the Bill
fered from those Resolutions
..;
.: •'' • importance that the Committe
tunity of comparing them, an•
With this view he should m•
Gentleman had no objection
- should be empowered to take i
joint Resolutions of the two
upon the subject of the Reger
The motion was agreed to.
. ..
COMMITTEE ON Tilt 1
The House having resolved
em the Regency Bill, Mr. Lt.;
the two first clauses were in
• • The third clause, prescribing
to the Regent being read,
‘ ... The CHANCELLOR n
begged leave to call the atten
to that point, and to state the
it accessary to introduce such
not anxious as to what the par
-..•
be, and therefore should not
,the one described in the Bill,
• red. Ln 1789 it was left dou
the Prince of Wales should si
:I
or in the King's, or in his os
ther. Every one must !mom
instruments were to which hi:
•
- • ; immediately have to affix his
•
how necessary it was that th
not be very long. It was
he proposed the one contain
! .
. .
should have the same authori
Manual, and by that means
. .. Mr. Larpent, and those who
•
obey that authority alone. :
' nature was preferred, he she
substitute it.
. .
Mr. ADAM thought it a
and recommended that they
gestions of the Right Hon.
hereafter found to be incot
; Make such alterations as we
• The clause was then agree
The Fourth clause, pros i;
of persons holding offices or
• or authority from his Majest
the Regent should signify hit
buing mad,
( Mr. WHITBREAD wig
•
slause was introduced ?
, • The CHANCELLOR
~••
:a'' ...
said, that as it was thought I

t should be con- distinctly to a an
speared right to t►on as tti the or
)f appointments clnslie. The bill
ee had any ob- vision! .and this c
it up. powers to be give
General hallo, I The Clause wa
the clause was The Sixth Clat
ing offices or plat
resumption of rity of the Reges