Star.
London, England, 1820-10-17 00:00:00

. • .
..,k, ~'. - .--,77 - : --.- . 71;1471?-.7"'V 7 .....";trin".4.l3n
. . . ............................
~......;.„. .A• .... 4/.
...........;.: ' 4 . -.A.• 4••• 14 ' . ' -.•:.•.:1%...6•••••••••• :L-....-..........44.• ' 4644, •' ' . •;/•:.......... • -..' .."411.......- '" ...- - - Acirr•rli in ---- -- -----,-----
. .
.. . .
a ,
, .
...
a
•
•-•.-... t ALL. T
Oitiallii„ , ....1, ..•
. •
•
• .
ee ‘--....).• :' 1
.. .
..,
Ish ,
•
• ,
_
,yam Of; - .- -
, .
.. . .
....
...r..."
.. . . . •••• . . • • ,
........ . . _ .
.
. •
. .
. •
nit 111111 L
. 2e-:11(--'4C•-/fr. • Ar•e.-e._:.l
- • s - • •
.. - 7 • . _
I ...
... ..
-'• • . .. . : '
. .i. . .
•• • •
• .
• 4., .- - • . ••• • s .:7.'44NNir...''
..
1: i . i .. ••
, .. .. .•
. .....
.11 .ral‘
‘ .4
• .
ir
4.10 Affr-.
'• • I
\ .• .
• .1

N I.nt s r: t. P x;498.:

. • 4. - -

:..

?..

PRICE SEVEN -PENCE.

TRIAL OF' THE V. 10111..

' find It necessary to discuss the propriety of entertaining it any
longer? Although these things might not be brought home to
Lord Harrowby„ and Lord Liverpool, and other Noble Lords
who advocated the Bill, would any man of sense say, that if
these things were proved, there did not exist a conspiracy against
the Queen ?—a conspiracy of the most atrocious nature ? and
that ii,n-e agents had employed, not their own money, for they
could out am uo benefit from such a *course, but the money either
Of Government, or el those who immediately employed them?
We ch,r,e," seid the Learned Counsel, ••a conspiracy. of the
foulest kind,t and we call upon your Lordships to afford us all
possible fuel:lees to expose it fully to the country !"
Dr. Ix:ern:erne said, it was not meant that Reganti was a
general agent of the Commission, but that be was employed in
a particular way to obtain witnesses against her Majesty. The
Milan Commission had employed Riganti to collect evidence,
which he did by bribery and correption of every description. Let
their Lordships only reflect on the effect which could not fail to
have been produced by such an emissary going about tifrough
all the places...which were made the scene of .the acts imputed
to the Queen, holding forth tempting accounts of the bribes to
be had, the fortunes to be gained, the good day's works to be
made, by giving testimony against her Majesty. It was conduct
which entered into the- fopraciation of ,the whole case; and
which must be strictly investigated if justice.were to be done.
had been said, that the persons were only asked to go to Mi-
lan, and not to come to siseijr Lordships' bar. But when.bribed
to go to Milan, and say what they could against her Majesty,
were they not sworn its their declarations? though by what au-
thority (said the Learned Counsel) I protest have not
the most distant idea. Could it be said that the depositions
which they had so made at Milan would not have an in.
laence on what they said when brought to their Lordships ba r
And were not her Majesty's Counsel, therefore, entitled to en-
quire by what sort of agency their depositions were obtained ?
It was evident, that the Milan Commissioners had 'given itb-
pal authority, as an agent; they had adopted' his acts by ex-
amining the witnesses, procured by him. But &Tend was
only one of many agents. Her Majesty's Counsel were now
entering on a course of evidence which would skew that in every
place where her Majesty had been, there had been agents without
number seeking out persons who by possibility might know some-
thing of her 'conduct," and tempting, by promises and offers of
bribes without limit, persons whose circumstances made them
fnost open to seduction, to go and perj ire themselves before the
Milan Commission, and afterwards to abide by these perjuries
at their Lordships' ar.
The Arroansr-Gaimaar. was astonished at the bold assertions •
in which the Learned Counsel for her Majesty had indulged,
asctrtims which were negatired by the evidence. IVhere did le
find that oaths had been administered by the Milan Commission?
;The fact was _negatived by every one of the witnesses. •
Mr. Baououele—No, by some of them only.
The Arroaxar-Gxuaaau. challenged her Majesty's Counsel to
prochice a single instance where it had been sat med.
Dr. LUSHINGTON begged to refer to page et:7 of the evidence.
A witness was there asked "If he was sworn at Milan?" His
answer was, " Yes, I took an oath at Milan." " Wbb swore
you ?" " The Advocate, Vilmacarti." " Were you sworn.'on
the cross?" " Yes, I took an oath on the cross?"
The Arroaver-Gieezeise said, that taking the whole of that
witness's statement fairly, it did not warrant the assertion that
he had been sworn by •Vilmacarti—(4l general laugh, and cries
Ok, oh !"/ •
The LORD CHANCELLOR said thathe believed theteita
Counsel had been so treated in any of the Courts ot thresunin.
nee Hall, he would have instantly left the Court.
The Aeroverxr.Graszaet. resumed, and proceeded to argue
his proposition, that the witness alluded to had not meapt to
say that he was sworn, but only that he was ready. to swear.—
The opposite Counsel admitted that agency must be fixed on Re-
.ganti, but no such agency had been proved. The ground on which
evidence had been admitted, as to the declarations of Rastell I
was not that he was an agent, but because such evidence might,
possibly, contradict the evidence given by RastellL The.ete-
sent case was very different. All that bad been proved as to
Reganti was, that he had told Rastelli to go to Milan. But who
would say that was establishing an agency ?
The LORD CHA CELLOR thought the question could
not be put. If any Noble Lord thought otherwise, it would
be competent to him to ask 'the opinion of the judges on the
subject.
Earl GREY:=Although the opinion on this subject giien by
the Attorney-General had been confirmed by the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack, yet he must; although, per-
haps, liable to the imputation of pertinacity, still express his
decided optnion, that, under all the circumstances of the
case, the question ought to be put. He would admit, that
in Courts of Law, according to the most strict rules of
evidence, the question win.tel not be permitted, and he dot.bt d
not that so the Judges would so deterfnine, were their opinion:
asked. But the question was whether their Lordships thou d
be bound by those rules of legal evidence, or deviate from them
when the peculiar circumstances of the case and the ends of jus-
lice rendered such deviation necessary? Their Lordships
were now on a Bill of Pains and Penalties, supported by eel..
'dente collected by a Commission in foreign countries. In
a case like this, their Lordships were bound to see that the
evidence was not only unsuspicious, but unsuspectec4 It w. a
proved by the evidence' of Rastelli, that Riganti was an agent.
It has also been sworn, by more witnesses than one, that Ras-
telli had gone to Witnesses and stated4o them if they would
give evidence of such a deicription, they should receive sr great
reward. the knowledge of this fact must have great weight in
the decision of their Lordships. If it could be proved, and it was
offered to be proved, that agents had offered to corrupt witnesses,
to suborn perjured witnesses against the Queen, their Lewd-
ships ought to enquire into the circumstances, and, sift the sub..
jest to the bottom.' Feeling strongly, as he did, the importance
&the enquiry, and anxious as all their Lordships must be'that
justice should be done, he had felt it and stiU felt it his duty to
declare his firm but humble opinion that this was an admissible
question. The proofs ought to be substantial one way or the
other, and this could never be the case if the conspiracy were to
go unexplored or unexamined. •
The Earl of LIVERPOOL 'wished their Lordships to do
as they had done in former cases, refer to the Judge, whenehey
had any doubts. It would be I painfail proceeding, in this stage
of • the business, to adopt a contrary course; which, if once
adopted, would render tee inquiry lute minable. He would agree
with the Noble Lord opposite, that when they came to decide on
this great question, they should weigh the subject well. Nay,
he would go farther, and state, that every particle of evidence
that was suspicious should be struck out, and that, utile,s the
preamble of the Bill could be proved by clear and unsuspected
testimony, the Bill ought not to pass. The Noble Lord eon-
eluded, by declaring his opinion that the question ought not to
be put.
' Lord ERSKINE was anxious that their Lordships sboild
guide, themselves as closely as possible to the rules of exideseie ;
there were, however, circamsta.ncee in which It was their LAW&
ships' duty to deviate from those strict rules.- In rezatd.
Cooke,
'and Milan Commission, he knew one of its principals, mr.
*and he believed him to be an honourable and conscientiOui aim;
and, for anything 'he knew, the other Gentlemen might he
equally honourable ; but if they were Angels instead of men the
witnesses might hive Been corrupted before they reached the Mi-
lan Conunissieners ; and therefore it was necessary to know whs..
ther they had been corrupted in their coursers, It was theituty et
the House to hear all the evidence an the subject, and perhaps
it might be found that there was not a conspiracy; 'but he
could they come to such a decision without hearing the evidence
offered to prove it? Were their Lordship, to suffer the case of
.a //rid* Queen, exiled as she had been, and reduced ,to the
most forlorn and destitute situation, to be judged-of like a cat-
„mon cause at nisi ',rims? . •eWe,"tsaid his Lordship, "ar e.g
sitting in. a- Court of Justice as vie ought to have sat. -We
ought, my Lords, to haye proceeded by . Fnipestehment. /Tait
your Lordships have not done; you leave isroceedo&by the enc.
makes and untonstitutional proceeding of a' liffl of Paine and
Penalties ; and yet you talk of confining yperselves the.
. ref la*, surdof legal evidences-. My single biadon can heie
, weight; but I &dare to your Lordships, tui oiny
I. of this odious Proceeding, thaewere tbe .Queed, as* *ob. be.
lieve her spotless, I would nut vote for deli nue" •

HOUSE OF LORDS,:OCTOBIIIt is.'
DEFENCt—TWELVIII

tin continual m from tie, first Edition of ytsierviny's STAT.)

The Fart of LIVERPOOL said, he had difficulty in stating
what was required; bist-he wrindered-the subjecthad not been
n!mentioned in an eatlier stage of the proceedings. Therecer-
eainly was nothing misietilius in the proceedings. Ile had; on
;he 7th of June, laid on ihelteble, by command of his Majesty,
c,rtain Papers relative tO•the ionduct -of her .Majesty while
l`rinc.:ss of Wales. He- propoied that they should be referred
to a Secret Committee, and many Noble Lords thought it the duty
of the Executive Government to introduce a Bin on the subject.
He presented other Papers ; they were referred to a Secret Com-
mittee; a Report was made, and a Bill was brought In, for
which he (Lord Liverpool) was 'responsible. In this there
was nothing mysterious. Whether the Secret Committee was
legal or not, had nothing to do with the Bill; for if the Com-
mittee had never existed, the Bili might have been brought in.
lie Laroduced it upon the firm belief that the Preamble would
be proved. Whether that would be the ease, or whether he was
j.:srified in bringing in the Bill, would be a subject for their ,
Lordships' consideration on some future occasion.
The Marquis of LA NS DOW N agreed with the statement of
the Noble Earl opposite, that the House were now entertaining
the Bill, on his suggestion, and that, for the purpose of insti-
tuting
the inquiry sought for, the House had created the party
at the bar, by appointing the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals to
appear in behalf of the Bill. But althdugh the House had,• for
its own convenience, created the prosecuting party at the bar, it
was incumbent on them, at the same time; to consider in what
way that proceeding affected the party who had been called to
the bar of their Lordships as defendant. The Noble Earl
oaaosite (Liverpool) had been- pleased to--express his as-
tonislimeht, that no such objection or difficulty had been before
stated, aa was now made by the Counsel for htr Majesty ; but,
as far as his recollection served, it hid been stated more than
one; and he niust tell the Noble Earl, that there was a manifest ,
reason, why it should be more especially reverted to at the pre-
sent moment, thso at any other.' The proceedings which had to
ken place in the I louse, had raised, in a manner that had not been
dune before, the vc:stion of who was the party prosecuting?
The Meisel for her Majesty had entered -upon a course of evi-
eience, the object of which was to establish the existence-of a
conspiracy for the sulrornation of perjury in support of the pro- ;
'caution: In proving this they had to prove an 'agency, and bow
could an egency be proved before they knew who was th4rinci-
pal? Agreeing with the representation given bythe Noble Earl op-
pOsite, that the measure was, in the first instariee; his measure,
and aftern ds the-measure of the blouse; by their entertaining
he felt that be had been guilty of an omission of duty in not
Libmittlng to their Lordihips on Saturday, that the letters of ,
Colonel BtoWri to Mt*. Powell, in as far as they related to the
abstraction 'of a material witness in the cause, were evidence
which ought to have been produced. The demand for that
evidence had 'no other object, and could not possibly have
any other object than the discovery •of •the truth. In ordi-
nary cases- of prosecution the- parties might have interests to
be preferred before those of troth, but here, where the pub-
he were said to be the only party concerned in instituting the
prbzecution, there could of course be no interests but those of
truth to serve. Ins Lordship conceived, therefore, that the
Hianse were bound; and should have felt it due to their own hi- ,
'*crests, to the interests of justice and of truth, that so much of
Ike Inters of Colonel Brown as related to the abstraction of
.Rstel/i Should have -been called for, and that Mr. Powell I
should have been compelled teeprisduce it.
The LORD CII AN CELLOR pointed out to their Lord-
ships tlet diildvantage of delaying the cross-examination of the
witness lie at their Lordships Bar, and wished that any discus-
sion that was not instantly calloclfor might be deferred till that
was over, in despite of all the world might say, be was convin-
ced, that in the end, their Lordships would do substantial justice.
. Lord CA LT/W[IPB explained.
"Earl GREY rose chiefly to express his dissent from that port
ot the statement of the- Noble Earl opposite, which went to
infer ihit those who had opposed the Bill had called upon
his Majesty's Ministers to bring forward that Bill -on their
own responsibility. What they had called upon'thent for was
id bring forward at once the charge against her Majesty,
on their own • responsibility, aad not to seek shelter under the
Ile‘i•nt of a Secret Committee. To the mode of proceeding by
Bill la; had always had an invincible objection. With respect to
de question immediately before their Lordships, he thought that
the Noble Earl apposite had made no answer whatever to the
point so well stated by kis Noble Ftiend near trim (Lausdown).
If the Counsel for her Majesty could not refer to the principal
in this prosecution, hoar, hate Would repeat, were they to prove
the agency? It must be clear to every one, that where agency
iito be proved, It is nearly impossible to do so without knowing
Wha the principal was.
The Karl of CARNARIION directed the attention of their
Loisiships to that pan of the case which referred to Carisrube,
ai inuitrating strongly the necessity of a satisfactory answer
being given to the question put by the Counsel for her Majesty.
The whole a that part of the case depellBed on the testimony
df one witness who had, at the request of one petty German
Potentate, been examined by -another, and compelled to come
ores to give her testimony.
Lord LIVERPOOL interrupted the Noble Earl, to observe,
thatahough the witness he alluded to had been.first examined by
the Hanoverian Minister, she had -been afterwards examined by
Colonel Brown, before being sent over here.
The Earl of C ARNAIi VON resumed. Admitting what
the Noble Earl stated, still it was by the Hanoverian Minister
that she had been first dealt with, and by the Grand lanke of
Baden that she was compelled, against her will, to come and
give the testimony. And were their Lordships to entertain fur
a moment this part of the case, if they were unable to ascertain
what sort of iillueoce had been used towards the witness, on
whom alone it depended, by a- foreign 'Power, who had no right
to interfere with the proceedings' of the House, and whose
agents the Llcruse had no means of ceiling before them. Un-
less it. were acknowledged that this Ilanoverian agent acted
tuadr the controul of the British GOvernment, he must contend
that her Majesty's Colima ought to be directed not to touch
upon the Carlsruhe part of the case at all. The proceeding
against her Majesty, disgraceful es it was in every point of view,
stood ad Germanized, that the House ought to know whether it
comes front the constitutional advisers of the King of England,
or from the advisers of the King-of Hanover—(Year, hear!)
His Lordship proceeded to animadvert, in warm terms, on the
distinction made. by the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's
Treasury, between holding the preamble of the Bill proved, and
passing the Bill.—The only question, he contended, which their
Lordships could have before them' was, the simple one of passing
the Bill. For any division of it into parts there was no analogy
or precedents, nor could any reason be shewn for it, founded
either on justice or common sense. Europe had already smiled,
(be would use no harsher term) at their Lordships proceedings.
But what would la: its opinion, were this great and august As-
sembly to hold that the preamble of the Bill bad been proved,
but that nothing further ought to follow? What would they
think .of such a wanton libel oo the character of a defenceless ,
woman and a Queen ; of an inquiry gone into fur no other pur-
pose but to libel the character of an injured and persecuted indi-
vidual?—(ll.dr, heat, hear.)—This indeed would, on the part of
their Lordships, she w a disposition
"'l'o hint a fault, and hesitate dislike—
"
to wound, arid yet aftaid to strike r
.---(llsar, hear, hear !)
Here the discussion as to the erosecuting party in the case
shoeped, end •
hod :VIELVILT.E now moved', that the proper Officer
should be ordered to attend at their Lordship: air with a state-
ment of the services of William Carrington on board tile Pole-
-tiers, and any other ships of his Maj....lty's '.gary • and extracts
of so much of the books of those ships u related to these ler-
vteitsr--th deal!.
'lle wins= l'ituerro roan fir„ nets re-eedlcd, and cross e.ro-

wrinel kitke Artoaxer-GEwEnaL.

yuu Rave siaccd that you resided in a house at the Ba-