Star.
London, England, 1828-03-07 00:00:00

LAW Of ENTAIL--SCOTLAND.

Mr. KENNEDY rose to move for leave to bring in
a Bill to alter and amend the Law of Entail in Scotland, and he was
satisfied that in doing so he showld have the concurrence of akshose
who were interested in, or acquainted with, the subject. He would
not enter into a detailed history of the Scotch Law of Entail, but
there were some particular circumstances to which be felt it his duty
to call the attention of the time, in order to show that be did not
make the motion with which he should conclude without reason.
The law was framed for the support of the Aristocracy of Scotland;
bat he should be able, when an opportunity was afforded him, of
showing, that if persevered in it must lead to its destruction. Previous
1685 there was no statute law upon entail in Scotland. The com-
mon law alone operated. In that year, however, a statute was passed,
which enabled an individual voisessed of an estate to name a series
of unborn heirs, and to entail his estate to perpetuity. That sta-
tute prevented any heir front alienating any part of the entailed
property. To that prospective tyranny no limits had yet been
made. By that statute a record was established ; and in order
to show the House the quantity of property which was already
thus bound down, checked, and injured, be would read an account
copied from the record, of the number of proprietors who had
taken advantage of the statute. In the first twenty years follow.
ing the enactment of the statute in 1685, there were 79 entails
registered ; in the next twenty years there were 185 ; in the next
twenty years there were 158 ; in the nest Q 0 years there were 138;
in the next twenty year s there were 272 ; in the next twenty years
there were 560; in the nest twenty years there were 475; and
daring the few years which had elapsed since the last period there
were 54. The whole of the entails in force and recorded under
that Statute amounted to t,645. The necessary effect of the pre-
sent law, if perstared in, would be to occasion, which he con-
sidered as a great grievance, an absentee aristocracy of a great
magnitude. Upwards of half the landed property of Scotland
was already subjected to the present law of entail, and the evils
to society were in consequence very great. Commerce was
checked, and also agricultural improvement. Certain restraints
were undoubtedly necessary, but all modified principles were
set aside by the present law. No latitude whatever of expression
was allowed, and such was the strictness of the interpretation, that
the omission of a single word tendered a deed worthless. He re.
membered an instance in which the deed said " shall not be sold,"
and the words in the record were " shall be sold;" and that variance
set aside the deedaltogetber. Under a limited system of entail a good
understanding between the members of a family would subsist; but
under the present law the father and the son were incapable of accom-
modating each other, and much confusion was the consequence. He
►new it might be said chats:sericulture had flourished inScotland ; but
he would reply, that it-would have flourished much more had it not
been trammeled by the present system of entail. The present law
had given rise to an immense mass of litigation, and its evils had
lung been felt. That celebrated Judge Lord Eames bad alluded to
them very strongly ; and again in 1817 they bad been noticed. The
present system, should it be allowed to go on without alteration,
would render it impossible for any person to receive above one-third
of his rental on entering upon an entailed estate. Fortunately, a
great deal of attention bad been paid to the subject by eminent
professional men, and therefore the House would not be asked to
proceed in the dark. A most excellent work upon it bad appeared
in 1826, and still more recently a Professional Gentleman of
the highest reputation and abilities bad turned his mind particularly
to It, and published the result of his labours. The plan which
it w::1 his intention to submit to the House was taken princally
from the suggestions furnished by the very able work to which be
bad last alluded. He brought forward no crude notions
his own, and therefore he looked with hope to a successful'
revolt. It was right he should style, that he wished to Now
under the old law those Peers of Scotland who at present pen
sessed propetty, and he did so, nut from any belief that eirail
would result from it, but from a respect to prejudice. And be
would ask, if jt was peeper that the alterations in the systems•
should laa prospective, why should it not also affect, after a des
time, the prima mails? He cookl see no reason why it should;
not, and; therefor*, his plan would propose a measure for gradually
relieving the property at present bound down. The measure had'
been prepared by those who mere fully competent to the task, and
he hoped it would be approved of. It was not to be compulsory.
By it no party could be compelled to change his 'situation with
respect to the present law. He trusted, therefore, that he should
obtain the leave he sought, and be pledged himself, when the Ihll
was in Committee, if he were allowed to proceed so far, to prove
that not a single individual would be injured by its operation. The
Honourable Member then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
alter and amend the Law of Entail in Scotland.
'flit LORD ADVOCATE said he should pot object
to the very reasonable course proposed to be pursued by the HMI.
Member, but in so doing, he must not be considered as pledging
himself to approve the principle of the Bill. Its object was neither
more nor less than to do away with the power of entailment alto
getheup and he thought the us rid of Scotland was not prepared is.
such a change. There were persons who would be tound to übjec
MI principle, to the proposed changes.
Mr. bUIiDEN said, that it thc 1331 intended to se,

aslde the Act of 1685, it would strike at the.root of an the laws*
Scotland regarding real property. If that were to be its charaet%
he must oppose it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL th ngh t that as the
Honourable Member had three objects in view, it would he bettit
to keep the several beads separate.
Mr. KENNEDY in le iy, said hi= coMect. hid heat
much misunderstood. He did not desire to do away with the law
of entail entirely; but his views could be satisfactorily explaiir4l/4

the Coramitttee. -
Notion put, agreed to, and 'rave given to bring in the BM.

COLONIAL SLAVERY.
Mr. WILMOT-HORTON rose, pursuant to notiesi
to move for Minutes of Evidence taken before his 114
i.

jesty's most Hon. Privy Council, in the Matter of die
Demerara and Berbice Manumission Order in Council,
Before, Sir, I proceed with my motion, which stands lot
this evening, I feel it necessary complain some circus";
stances which occurred yesterday. The House is pro.

bably aware, that a short discussion arose on a pennail
that was presented relating to this subject. Tke Hon
Member for Winchelse.t made several observations
during that discussion, which I ni,w sigh to answer.—:
He begged me to postpone my motion till six or seven
o'clock, but he has now feud himself unable to stay
and has begged me to postpone it altogether. I bete
been obliged thus to allude to the Hot. and Learned
Member, in order to explain to the House the situation
in which I stand. lam ready to go on, and lam not
aware that any thing I have to say will require au
answer from the Learned Member; but I wish to know,
whether, underthe circumstances, it is the pleasureof the
House that I should proceed—(Cries of go on, go on.)
The SPEAKER said that the Hoo. Klauber must decide
for himself.

Mr. WILMOT-HORTON proceeded. I move for
those minutes of evidence, in older that tt ey ess4y be
laid upon the table of the House and printed. I feel it
my duty to tall the attention of the House to the cit.
cunostances which make me think it necessa y to take
such a course. I beg, at the same time, to be uncle,.
stood, in what I am about to say, to have had no coo.
munication with any Member of the Government on the
subject. I was myself present at the Privy Council
during the discussion, and it is in consequence of what
I then learned, that I now, es an individual Member 01
the House of Commons, think it my duty to make this
motion. That resolytion (the Right Hon. Gentleman
continued) was to this effect, " that the state of slavery
is repugnant to the spirit of the British law." That re-
solution was rejected by the House, and others were
submitted, which was partly to the following effect:—
" That the House was anxious to pass such laws as may
be compatible with the well being of the slaves them-
selves, the safety of the Colonies, and the interests of
private property."—The House was aware that his M.
jestv's Government were called on to execute these la.
solutions ; and it was necessary, on the pre,ont occasion,
to crave the attention of all those Honourable Men.
bets who took an interest in the welfare of the slave, to
the extreme difficulty in which the Government was
placed with reference to these resolutions. It was
necessary, in the first place, to observe the series of
circumstances which had conducted them to that
point at which the Berbice appeal had been brought.--
The appellants prayed that his Majesty would be go
ciously pleased not to issue any Orders in Council to I
enable the slave in Berbice to obtain his freedom by
appraisement, or otherwise, without allowing the pet•
tioners to be first heard by their Counsel. The Right
Hon. Gentleman was most anxious to have this pat t of
his subject rightly stated to the House and to the cows
try ; and begged to observe, that with respect to this
clause of compulsory manumission, his observations hail
contained no direct allusion to it. The history of the
clause was this; the resolutions of 1823 pledged the
House to the alternative of reconciling the freedom of
the slave, by purchase or otherwise, with the interest of
the master. Earl Bathurst, in this dispatch, dated the
9th of July, sent out certain instructions to the West
Indies, requesting the Legislative Colonies, and direct.
ing those which were more immediately under the con-
troulof the Crown, to adopt measures in furtherance of
tin principles contained in that dispatch. In that
dispatch no allusion was made to the subject of ma.
numission ; but at the same time Sir R. Woodford, the
Gores nor of Trinidad, was directed to prepare the draft
of an Order in Council embodying all those instruc-
tions; and in fact those instructions, with the single
exception of the principle of slave evidence, upon which
there was now more accordance than upon any other,
were sanctioned by the whole t..f the West India body
in England. Sir Ralph Woodford, in obedience to
Lord Bathurst's dispatch, framed the draft of au Order
in Council, according to the Spanish law on that subject
as it existed in the colony of Trinidad. Mr. Canning,
at the time he brought forward his motion, in the begin.
ning of 1824, had laid down these as the principles of
the Government—that it was expedient to collect togo
dor all the various measures of improvement which
were to be found in any part of the West Indies ; to con.
centrate thens,and to form them into a general slave code
for the West Indies ; consequently, compulsory mann-
mission, or manumission by appraisement, being found
to be part of the law of Trinidad, was deemed expedient
to be introduced into this general code, and the fact was
announced accordingly to that House by Mr. Canning.
It would be seen from the Order in Council of Trinidad,
laid on the table, that it contained clauses relating to
compulsory manumission which were in effect identically
the same with those which had been se, over to Sir
Ralph Woodford. It might here be proper to state,
that neither on the part of those Gentlemen who were
considered more particularly to represent the slaves,
nor on the part of those who mire supposed more
particularly to represent the West Indian Proprietors
in this country, was any reclamation made at the time
of a parliamentary nature against this manumlasins
law. Allusion, indeed, was made to it, in the course
of some debates, but the sense of Parliament was
never taken with respect to this measure of compulsory
manumission. No sooner, however, was it extended
or proposed to be so, to Demerara and Berbice, than the
Court of Policy there, to which was entrusted the duty
of preparing a general law on the subject, condensing
and interweaving the Dutch law with the. Spanish
recognised in the instructions issued from home, made
a strong protest against this proposal of compulsory
manumission. Protests were sent over to the Secretary
of State ; difficulties and inconveniences were disco.
vered to attach to it, and the Government here wete
prayed to modify it considerably, or to revoke it alto.
gether. It was declared that nothing could induce
sienrciliseue
ithet wColonies
the
e ostfiothnattoovaedrop_ruthtnhge measure, unless
power which the
mother country was allowed to be capable of exercising
over the institutions of all her Colonies. Voluminous do-
cqments had been from time to time laid on the table of
the House connected with that subject: but though much
information was conveyed in the dispatches to the
Secretary of State, no law was yet in operation in
Demerara, as to compulsory nianurnis•ion, •arying
from that law which Existed in Timidad. Now, be
would go the length of saying, that it the abolitiont,o
• rue prepared, as he had nude rsti od them to have
edared, to stand or fall by the law of 'btu dad, th.e
?ere prepared to stand en fall by that whrs It cou.J

6 steely be said. to exist.
it was completely inoperat
slave was as imps- tected "
taibter. By the Sdaiki sh law,
C )10nies, the right of ti
was supposel to have heel
law which governed the
respect of his Moorish slay
-*market was in existence, II
inanumissiim WJS simply ,
i this les non seriph" (for such
putable its existence, it was
'any written traces of it),
to purchase his manumissi,
*appointed two appraisers,
what they considered to be
the slave; and with this pri
I bnarket to obtain another
general or particular incon,
It transaction. In Trinidar
tilave Trade, this law
bperation, in consequence
from day to day of slaves
poorer soils of the West
thus enabled, without
1 js,itt with slaves by this
The House would not
the trade from Africa
'hole case was altered it
Ad th'e slave. Now, the
in Conntit required, n thai
taken oft slave applying
if any difficulty diott)d aril
the slave and the proprietor
shall nominate a third party,
ing." Nothing could appe,
elex than this direction in
gineJ more difficult of eses
obterve, that there was nothi
ascertained or directed chi
taisemetof ilvawluhewe aas
w,
although, 1
master could have repairk
omission would have been
One, under present circumf
, bad altogether ceased in •
sential character. The wi
/single point, therefore, ani
, sort, namely, the difficulty
- a slave whom he might
' .Mpurchased. In 1823, this
orton) felt boand to ob
tions that it was the gt
ever been known, to sup!
not execute more benefit
the master the duties of
labour could, execute the
toast wish most heartily,
soul, that this were the faci
mot so. It was for the cut
House the multiplied diffit
_ subject, and to show at sot
documents would bear on
ject, that he should move t
taken before the Privy Ci
Demerara and Bel bice Mi
should be laid upon the
was convinced that the mi

men would be very muck
by the study_ of those mini
speeches of the Counsel
aide and on the other.
end, without perusing them,
perfectly aware of the di
pan) had spoken• of. The
she dispatch of Lord Bub
which it was intended that
take place, was the princi
that is,. that if the master
iris compulsory manumist
nearly as possible, to reply
sealue. The. former lieso;
Commons ietolved,. two
that, in his judgment, no
• effect could deny that
.., one hand, the slaves
state of freedom; and,
equal clearness, an avoidi
arriving at such a state, w
sised for the interests of
Gentleman. illustrated thi
showing the loss to which ,
by re4son of having a valve
bis.estate, the cultivation
him, ,the master, with the
himself and his family
fact, therefore, his whol
' .—the,limited market fc
it.was notorious, was cal
brkbody of slaves labour
that their work should I
out interruption, and cat
at all periods. The car
upon a compulsory prim
that of working classes i
country like our own, for
would usually be too ha!
sible amount of employ!
would willingly devote
of his time, as the means
of wages. All that he
d:- Hon. Gentlemen shoulL
which surrounded this sir
their desire to better the
in which every man of i
with them), to legislate
questions which involved
sands amongst us, as well
population. The greatest
• be to suppose that the '
general equal value (a pr
Gent.proc• eded to &mini
from the cultivation of
West Indies, of unequal \
bands,and by hands of mm;
there was no alternative b
measures that had yet been,
slave, and a complete purelsal
the colonies and planters
of .compulsory manumission,
stmts. By both Houses of
_ called on to do away slavery alt.
• hand, they were equally required
and to'show a regard for the is,'
11 ell as for those of the slave; ,
difficulty of the problem; for it
all that slavery in the abstract •
it state of freedom. After this
succeeded in convincing the
throughout the colonies that thi
Weighed the difficulties of the c;
.better t ight to expect the consent
legislative Colonies of Great
which, he must contend, such CI
to carry into &cat, without prc;

st. Ars Otte
erative, end
id by it as
iw,which pr-
the mate
been des iv
e Spanish
ilaves. At
, the history
ply this; th
such it wa
was estre
,), bad obta
weu
era, who st
tbeaftirp
price the
her in his
iconvenienc
idad, before
remained
ce of the .4
ayes into .
est Indies.
: any diffi•
his process
t fail to
I was stop •
I in respect
it clauses in
hat a fair an
ig for his ma
arise on this
ictor of the
arty, Whose
Ippear More
n terms. N.
execution.
s nothing i
the principl
ts to be ma.
a market e
aired to rep
seen of no c
Imstances, a
in cur Colon
whole que
and upon o
sky of the sl
ht so lose b
his country,
observe, w
grossest ••
suppose tha
neficially fo
of sugar cu
them. No
y, and fr. •
fact ; but, u
purpose of
ifficulties wh
some future
on the consi.
re that the i
Council, in
11 Aim mission
he table of
minds of
uch informe
ninntes, and
,sel engaged
r. The hitt-
:hem, perhap
difficulties
fhe House
lathurst, that
rat the slave a
Iciple of equi
tter lost his
mission, he ch
.eplace him b
Resolutions
vo pt opwiti
no man ss,
at they .con
arriving
nd, on Alei
°Oaf iiistalf
•
with an •
f the master
the difficu
ch the slave
valuable sla
ttion of whi
the whole •
ily were, to
hole difficult
for slaves.
carried on u
During togeth
d be continu
capable of •
case of such
rinciple Was
es in a free
for example
happy to obt
oyment, sinc •
rte the great
ns of realising
he was arm.
,uld be awar
s subject, an.
he condition
f right feeli
ate rashly or
red the inter
well as of th
atest mistake
le slaves shou
proposition
tonplify by se
of lands bet
ual value, by
f unequalskil
Live between
been suggest
purchase of
ers in the W
mission, this
iouses of p
slavery alto!.
illy required
for the inter -
:he slave; an•
bletn; for it
e abstract wa
After this
dig the We
ties that they
ies of the cas •
the consent a •
it Great Brit.
!nd, such Col•
idiom pr (jut!

all the laws 6
r iv% ettarattge,

r that 4s the
meld be beltet

!,‘ hid bee%
y with tibe
ity espuibml/4

I the Bat

it to notion
ore hit 1
atter of the.
in Conned,
stands fat
iwse circunt:
owe h pad
)n a petition
The Ho&
observatioai
to answer.--;
six or serest
able to stay,i
ier. I ii44i
nd Learned
the situation
id I arn ant
require as
rish to know,
Leasure of the
in, go on.)

c na—uut deiik

I move foe
it ey may be
ed. I feel it
se to the cit.
ssa y to take
to he uncle'.
had no com.
nment on the
ivy Council
ence of what
it Member of
to make this
Gentleman
ite of slavery
w." That re-
others were
ing effect
laws as may
slaves them.
le interests of
e that his Ma.
cute these re-
i-ent occasion,
curable Mem-
F the slave, to
aliment was
ions. It was
the series of
hem to that
!II brought.—.
would be gra-
in Council to
s freedom by
wing the peti-
. The Right
re this pa. t of
d to the coon.
espect to that
servations had
history of the
3 pledged the
he freedom of
the interest of
tch, dated the
s to the West
es, and direct-
inder the con-
fut theran ce of
:ch. In that
abject of ma-
Woodford, the
pare the draft
those instruc-
ith the single
opon which
4trt any other,
tst India body
obedience to
ft of an Order
in that subject
Mr. Canning,
t, in ttie begin-
e principles of
.o collect toge-
cement which
ndies ; to con•
eral slave code
n }spry manna
t, being found
med expedient
Id the fact was
Mr. Canning.
:il of Trinidad,
;es relating to
Feet identically
VR over to Sir
roper to state,
nen who were
!nt the slaves,
,upposed, more
an Proprietors
!de at the time
I manumission
, in the course
arhament was
of compulsory
as it extended.
erbice, than the
'Listed the duty
ct, condensing
e.Spanish law,
n home, made
)f compulsory
the Secretary
es were disco-
cut here were
revoke it alto-
could induce
measure, unless
met which the
le of exercising
To] ominous do-
on the table of
it though much
ittches to the

operation iu
varying
1.4 d. Now, be
he abolstionibts
them to beim
'bin dad. they
t cou,J

s arcely be said. to exist. As he had befoie shown.
it was completely inoperative. end the interest of the'
slave eAS as iiiipr, tected by it is the interest of the
nia.ter. BytheS,aaish law,which prevaileJ in •heSpotish
C lionies, the right of the mater in Vico bomini,
was supposei to have been derived trona the ancient
law which governed the Spanish master in Europe in
respect of his Moorish slaves. At a time when a slave
market was in existence, the history of such compulsory
manumission errs simply this; the blave, who under
this les non seripta (for such it was, as however intik-
putable its existence, it was extremely difficult to find
any written traces of it), bad obtained money enough
to purchase his manurnie.ien, went to his master, who
appointed two appraisers, who struck between them
what they consideted to be a fair price lot the value of
the slave; and with this price the master went into the
Market to obtain another in his stead, and thus no
general or particular inconvenience resulted from such
a transaction. In Trinidad, before the cessation of the
Slave Trade, this law remained—one very easy in its
operation, in consequence of the growing importation
tom day to day of slaves into that island from the
poorer soils of the West Indies. The master was
thus enabled. without any difficulty whatever, to
.p.irt with slaves by this process of manumission.—
The House would not fail to observe, that when
the trade from Africa was stopped altogether, the
Whole case was altered in respect both to the master
and the slave. Now, the clauses in the Trinidad Order
in Counscil required, "that a fair and just value shall be
taken of a slave applying for his manumission, and that
if any difficulty should arise on this head, the owner of
the slave and the proprietor of the slaves of the Colony
shall nominate a third party, whose award shall be bind-
ing." Nothing could appear more simple or less corn-
elex than this direction in terms. Nothing.could be ima
guse.l more difficult of execution. The House would
observe, that there was nothing in this order which
ascertained or directed the principle on which this lap-
praisernent of value was to be made —(Hear, hear),
Nu o, although, while a market existed to which the
master could have repaired to replace his slave, this
omission would have been of no consequence, it was
one, under present circumstances, and, atter that market
had altogether ceased in our Colonies, of the most es-
sential character. The whole question turned on one
single point, therefore, and upon one difficulty of this
SOIL, namely, the difficulty of the slavenwner replacing
a slave whom he might so lose by manumission thus
purchased. In 1823, this country, as he (Mr.Wilmot-
Horton) felt bound to observe, was deluged by as.er-
tions that it was the grossest mistake which had
ever been known, to suppose that tree labour would
not execute more beneficially for the purposes of
the master the duties of sugar cultivation, than slave
labour could, execute them. No man living but
must wish most heartily, and from the bottom of his
soul, that this were the fact; but, unfortunately, it
,was
not so. It was for the purpose of pointing out to the
House the multiplied difficulties which belonged to this
subject, and to show at some future period how those
documents would bear on the consideration of this sub-
ject, that he should move that the minutes of evidence
taken before the Privy Council, in the matter of the
Demerara and Be, bice Manumission Order in Council,
should be laid upon the table of, the House. He
was convinced that the minds of Honourable Gentle-
men would be very much informed and enlightened
by the study_ of those minutes, and of the admirable
speeches, of die Counsel engaged both on the one
side and on the other. The latter were published,
and, without perusing them, perhaps no man would be
perfectly aware Of the difficulties which he (Mr. Hor-
ton) had ,spoken. of. The House would perceive, by ,
the dispatch of Lord Bathurst, that the principle upon
which it was intended that the slave appraisement should
take place, was the principle of equivalent sullstitution ;
that is,. that. if the master lost his slave by reason of
his compulsory manumission, he should be enabled, as,
nearly as possible, to replace him by an equivalent in
value. The. former Resolutions of the House of
.Commons iueolved.. two propositions so coufficting,
that, in his judgment, no man who cqnsidered their
effect could deny that they contemplated, on the
one hand, the slaves arriving progresOely at a
state of freedom; and, .on -:they pther. ,ond with
equal clearness, an avoidiag 4;4,w:birth!. bis so
al r iving at such a state, with as equitable provision de-
vised for the interests of the master. The Right Hon.
Gentleman. illustrated the difficulty of this -case by
.showing the loss to which the slave owner was subjected
by reasonof having a valuable slave abstracted frqm
bis i estate, the cultivation of which estate supplied
him,.,the master, with the whole capital upon which
himself and his family were, to be supported. In
fact, therefore, his whole difficulty turned upon this
...the Jimited market for slaves. Sugar cultivation,
it. was notorious, was carried on upon such an estate
larkbpdy of slaves labouring together. It was necessary
that their woak should be continuous, sustained with-
out interruption, and capable of being made available
at all periods. The case of such slaves who worked
upon a compulsory principle Was very different from
that of working classes in a free and densely peopled
country like our own, for example, where the labourer
would usually be too happy to obtain the greatest pos-
sible amount of employment, since, to its execution, he
would willingly devote the greatest possible amount
of his time, as the means of realising the greatest amount
of wages. All that he was anxious about was, that
Hon. Gentlemen should be aware of the difficulties
which surrounded this subject, and not be tempted, in
their desire to better the condition of the slave (a desire
in which every man of right feeling must participate
with them), to legislate rashly or in ignorance upon
questions which involved the interests of so many thou-
seeds amongst us, as well as of the whole of the slave
population. The greatest mistake in the world would
be to suppose that the slaves should be estimated at a
general equal value (a proposition which the Right Hon.
Cient.proo eded to exemplify by several analogies drawn
from the cultivation of lands both in England and the
West Indies, of unequal value, by unequal numbers of
hands,and by hands of unequal skill). He contended that
. there was no alternative between the failure of all the
measures that had yet been suggested for the relief of the
slave, and 4 complete purchase of all the property of
the colonies and planters in the West ladies, except this
of compulsory manumission, this species of appraise',
meats. By both Hooves of Parliament they Were
called on to do away slavery altogether; on the othee'
hand, they were equally required to respect property,
1 and to show a regard for the interests of the master as
v ell as for those of the slave; and here was the main
difficulty of the problem; for it was no argument to
1 sty that slavery in the abstract was a worse state than
a state of freedom. After this House should hays;
succeeded in convincing the West. India proprietors'
i throughout the colonies that they had both seen and,,
weighed the difficulties of
• the case, they would have a
better tight to expect the consent and concinrence.of the
legislative Colonies et Great Britain to those measures
which, he must contend, such Colonies couli and ought
to carry into effect, , iShOUS prejudice SO their own title

interests. He wait sorry that dui Hon. and Learned'
Member for Winch,lse4 was not present in his place on
the present occasion) although, perhaps, his presence
was not necessary, since he (Mr. Hoi on) was merely 1
.Irving what observations occurred to him as applicable
to the papers he was moving for. As he was provoking
no argument, and as he was stating difficulties which he
thought it the more necessary to demonstrate while
vindicating the conduct of the late and present Go.
stemma i■ respect of them, it was of paramount
necessity that the West India Colonies should know
and feel that we had no other view to consult than
their own interess ; and that We determined to
carry into effect measures of amelioration) even though
it should he proposed to consider what modifications
ought to be made and what ought to be done with this
particular clause respecting appraisement. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then adverted to -some animadversions

of Mr. Brougham on a preceding night upon his (Mr.
Horton's) presumed argument in favour of compen-
sation to the West India Proprietors. He denied that
he had maintained the principle in the manner suggested
by his Hon. and Learned Friend ; but the analogy
which his Hon. and Learned Friend had attempted

to establish between their case and the case of private
interests, like the Silk Tiede, was really untenable.
He (Mr. Horton) had been asked who had ever heard
of such a principle as compensation in such a case as
the Silk Trade ? But surely the House would at once
perceive the wide difference between a question of that
nature, and one in which large sacrifices were demanded
under the circumstances peculiar to the West india
question. Had it been true that free labour could effect
the cultivation of sugar, for instance, to the extent at
which the advocates for frea 1 +boor calculated that it

was capable of doing, slave labour would long since
vanished from the West India Islands. Could this be

doubted? Good COD ! the West India Proprietor must
be insane who would not contemplate with satisfaction,
if such a measure were practicable, the substitution of
free labour for the labour of slavery, with all its inci•
dents. Unfortunately this was not the question, and the
House was to consider, not the wishes, but the means

of the patties. As long as any equivalent for the va:ue
of his slaves could be produced to the master, he
(Mr. Horton) should not hesitate to say, that the case

of the master was one which did not tell for compensa-
tion at all; but how impracticable it was to fix this ne•

cessary question of equivalency he had already shown.
The West Indians, when they complained of our legis-
lation on this subject, complained that we did not follow
up the letter of our own law. This very objection only
rendered it the more necessary to ascertain, if possible,
some system of appraisement. How was a slave to be
replaced who had become expert in the cultivation of
one species of produce, raised in a particular soil, if the
only substitute to be obtained was another slave, accus-
tomed to cultivate adifferent produce in a different situa•
tion? What was to be done where no slave at all could be

found? How was the price of a slave, whose manumis-

*ion was to be purchased, to be estimated, when it was
found impossible either to purchase znotl.er slave at all,
or a.slarre of equal value in the cultivation of the mas-
ter's estate? He (Mr. Horton) admitted the difficulty,
which, thoilgh a contingent one, was most important
to be peat considered. The Hon. and Learned Member

for Winchelsea had also intimated that be (Mr. Hor.

•
ton) had expressed an opinion that compensation to
the slave-owners should be made before any discus-
slim on the subject of these Orders was prcceeded
with. Now he, in truth, had never said any such
thing. The House would see that though, as far
as measures of amelioration were concerned, they
were free to adopt aoy course they pleased, either
by the exertion of their own power, or by recommend-

ing strongly where recommendation was the course it
might seem more proper to pursue, they should not
pledge themselves on a subject of such difficulty to any
act of improvident legislation, which might be produc-
tive of substantive injustice to the West India proprie.
tors. When his Hon. and Learned Friend, whose ab-
sence he so much tegretted, reproached him (Mr. H.)
with being opposed to the abolitionists, he must beg to
inquire, of what abolitionists? Because he conceived
that this House, and the other House of Parliament,
were equally pledged to carry into effect thf resolutions
01823; and as for himself, according to his landerstand-
log of those resolutions, he challenged any man to show
Ahat he had ever done anything which had not proposed
their accomplishment for its object. These resolu-
tions certainly contemplated the gradual advance•
meat of the slave to a state of freedom, at the same
time that they respected the rights of private pro.
, party. Now, such terms it was easy to write, but they
involved,. in • practice, a most tremendous and respon-
sible difficulty. Slavery bad been treated by some Gen-
tlemen as an useles excrescence, and, as such, one that
might easily be sacrificed with little injury to the State.
It was his conviction that this o as not the case; that no
men could be found. in short, to do the labour of the
slaves. He himself had taken every pains, and so had
the Privy Council, to bring together all evidence
which could be obtained, in order to demonstrate the
equelity of free labour to slave labour. Instructions
were accordingly given to Mr. Common Sergeant Den-
man and Mr. Sergeant Bosanquet to adduce any evi-
dence which they could collect on this point, in order
to show that the difficulties of the subject were less than
the Berbice appellants had represented them to be.—
Every facility was given with this view, but the result
was totally unsatisfactory. He could as little admit to
his Hon. and Learned Friend, that this was a question
to be disposed of by any arithmetical references to those
points of the Resolutions of this House which had been
attended to, or neglected by the Legislative Assemblies.
It would be well to conciliate, by every fair, reasonable,
.and deliberate consideration of the various difficulties
attaching to the case, the proprietors of slaves in the
West Indies, before the House attempted to legislate
upon it. Above all, it was necessary, if it was meant
permanently to maintain the interests either of the slave
or his master,not to put-them in collision with each ether.
No pecuniary advantage could accrue to the master, no
benefit to the slave, if these parties should be so brought
into collision by hasty or indiscreet legislation. That
planter best consulted his own interests, beyond ques-
tion, who most consulted the interests of his slaves. In
respect of the latter, coercion was a mode of treatment
_which must now be sure to fail—a conclusion which
the Right Honourable Gentleman came to, from consi-
dering the very different state and circumstances under
which the creole slave was now placed—in a condition
of slavery in which he had been born, and in which he
bad always lived, from those in which the slaver,
newly imported from Africa, and suddenly exchanging
hate of freedom for a forced slavery, was formerly
placed. In the case of the latter, his feelings west
Accited by the contract of the state from which he
.bad been carried away, and the freedom from which
be had been borne, with the servile labours and the
.bondage upon which he was reluctantly compelled to
enter. The creole wasnot only unconscious of a con-
trast so calculated to arouse his angry passions, but
was gradually merging (distant as was the time
which the West India proprietor assigned for the

accomplishment of the change) into t state of liberty.
Ht. did not mean to '•inditate or enter into any de.
fence of the Coloniat•Legisleturei; all that he wisl,ed
to be understood by the House as saying was, that they
would do well, in proportion to their poweroo set the
example of forbearance at this critical Moment. There
was a disposition in those
Colonies—lb Demerara and
Berbice it had been expressly declared—to assist in pro-
tuoting the views and measures of Government; there-
fore, additionally on that account, he thought they
ooght, in their legislation, to show a disposition towards
the protection of property. More would be done towards
the attainment of their own wishes, if they were to act
with practical forbearance towards the equitable in-
terests of the parties. It should be recollected, that in
this matter ere were not affected in purse or in person in
extending the operation of our benevolence—(Hear)—
and although that consideration would not, he well
knew, deter the House from pe;forming their duty
towards the Empire at large, he thought it ought to
weigh in the balance where we were dealing with the
rights and interests of those who were affected by this
question in purse and in person, and who might not
happen to take the same view of the subject as them-
selves. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded, amidst'
the cheers of the House, with thanks for the attention
which had been paid to him, by moving that--
" An humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to give orders
that the Papers referrrod to in the opening of the speech be laid on
the table on the House."
Mr. K. DOUGLAS seconded the motion, and con-
tended that the House would do well to be cautious how it pro-
ceeded in any question connected with the Colonies in the absence
of full information.
Lord NUGENT said, he should not prolong a de-
bate on a question on which there was no difference of opinion in
tke House; as all were agreed that the papers should be laid be-
fore the House. lie merely rose fur the purpose or enteriog his
protest against some of the principles laid down by his Hight
Honourable Friend. When his Honourable Friend said that the
slaves were a property guaranteed by Parliament, be (Lord
Nugent) could not forget that there was a power higher than
Parliament; and that Parliament could never give a just claim to
have human beings regarded as property, against the voice of
N ore and of Gon. When the slave owners claimed compensation
for their slaves, as their property, he would deny his right, because
be never could have a right to make his fellow-men his property
—(Hear, hear!)
Mr. W. WHITMORE said. she was quite convinced
that unless compulsory manu ' 'on was enforced, it was worse
than useless to agitate the question of ameliorating the condition of
the slaves. It was not true that West India products could not be
produced by free labour. Let them look at the East, at Mexico,
and at St. Domingo, where sugar was produced in large quantities
by free labour—(hear, hear).
Mr. W. SMITH said he felt it his duty to protest
against the doctrine, that man could be the property of his fellow
man. But he would not contend that the owners of slaves bad not
a right to compensation from the nation who had sanctioned their
unjust claims to make man their property.
Mr. BARING said, be had heard one Hon. Friend
support the rights of man, and another Hon. Friend
cite the words of Goo. With those topics he did not
wish to interfere. He should only say, he thought the
Colonial Legislatures would be astonished when they
beard how the subject of their losses was discussed. He
wished to remind his Hon. Friends how their arguments
stood with respect to the resolutions of Parliament. The
resolutions of the House of Commons and the House
of Lords had been passed upon the understanding that
manumission was to be gradual, and without the viola-
tion of property. Much had been said on the hardships
endured by the negroes, but it would be found that the
labouring classes in Europe, working for the benefit of
their employers, suffered more severely than the black
agriculturist, whose real state was misrepresented, and
who was supposed to be tt eated with abominable cruelty.
Those charges and misrepresentations he positively de.
nied. If, however, any Member thought fit to question
the accuracy of such statements, he was considered a
prejudiced man: one who ate at the planter's table, or
drank his punch.—The Hon. Gentlemen who opposed
the West India Proprietors spoke of wrongs and in-
jurious treatment, without any better grounds than their
own imagination. As to the necessaries and :he wants of
life, he could say there were few of the labouring
classes in Europe upon a footing with the slaves on a
well-regulated plantation. He would take the negroes
of Antigua and back them for moral feeling against
the peasantry of St. Giles in London, and other parts.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that his Ma-
jesty's Gioveronsent laboured under great difficulty in
meeting the prejudice on this subject. He was an ad-
vocate for gradual emancipation, but he thought if the
slaves were set at liberty without order and method, it
would do them more harm than good. The abolitionists
called for emancipation forthwith, and said, Delay not a
minute. If it were true that the slaves were suffering
under abominable cruelty, there could be no question
that they ought to be liberated immediately; but was it
so? They were not cruelly treated, and gradual manu-
mission was the best course that could be taken. The
question of compensation was of considerable import.
auce, and should be fairly considered. If manumission
took pla.e to a considerable extent, the cultivation of
sugar was gone. if the number of labourers necessary
for the cultivation of sugar upon a plantation was re-
duced so low that cul:ivatton could not go on, the owner
of the estate would lose the u.e of negro labour, which
made it productive. Theo came the application of free
labour. The Honourable Member expressed a strong
doubt whether free labour and slave labour would go
together. In America they could not get free labourers
for such work. He felt, upon a general view of what
was due to the Wept India Proprietor, that Parliament
should pause before they adopted any measure which
.might fall heavy and with injustice on that body.
Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON said that he certainly
was of opinion, that amongst all the difficulties o hich
the Government had to contend with, in endeavouring
to carry into effect the Resolutions of the House, them
were none more serious than those which would arise
from sentiments -such as those expressed by his Hon.
'Friend, Mr. W. Smith, and by the Noble Lord (Nugent).
He did not think that, horn maintaining the principle
that there we, e no vested rights (for vested they were),
in this kind of property, however unfortunate it might
be, the colonists threw more difficulties in the way of
every negotiation between them and the Government
with respect to amelioration, than from any other cause
whatever; and while he said than be should also say,
that all those difficulties were aigravated by the equally
extreme views taken on the other side by his Honour-
able Friend who spoke lair. The people and the House
both concurred in the desire to see something done by
which the state of slavery should be ameliorated, and he
therefore lamented when be heard, what might make it
appear to those connected with the West Indies, that they
were not recognised to possess a legal right in their
slaves. He knew that they had the same right—that it
was defined and limited by the same laws, as they had
to other property ; at the same time that he agreed
with his Honourable Friend (Mr. W. Smith),
that they
stood in a _different point of view, as owners of thi,
property, as compared with any other—(Hear,
hear).
At the same time, he would not have that Honourable
Gentleman suppose that the principle of compensation
was to be departed from if they were ,to part with this
as to how they had dealt with it, were to be permitted.
property, or that any inquiry, under such circumstances,

Laying arid, all *hatted rtglite.. the ftes• lotions of Par.
Lament treated the; ncgiOes ies.tetted property ; bot
the *ante time had the object of eff-cting each a gra-
dual change in them as would raise them to the coa.,

dition of the other subjects of the enui,t; y. The Right
Honourable Gentleman went on to say, that he thought
his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. W. Horton) and his
Honourable Friend (Mr. Baring) had themselves an-
swered their own arguments. The question of compul-
sory manumission had its origin in Trinidad, where it
was adopted from the Spanish law, and no difficulty
could exist to it in a Spanish island, inasmuch as the
deficiency created by it could always be filled up
.by a fresh importation of slaves from Africa ; but
that being at an end, then it would not be consistent
with the other clause of the resolution, that respect-
ing compensation, respecting which a difficulty was
to be overcome, namely, that the moral qualities,
the skill, and value of the slave, greatly overbalanced
the price he would bring in the market. Under
the old law of Spain, the parties to replace these
skilful educated negroes were the untutored savages
of Africa , wherefore, if he was bound to assume that

there was a difficulty in replacing a slave, yet also his
owner was in a better situation, as those from whom be
could now be replaced were the educated. and he might
call them apprenticed slaves of our own Islands. Here
the Right Honourable Gentleman contrasted the pre-
sent intelligence and condition of the slaves in the
West India Islands with the state they were in be-
fore the abolition of the slave trade, and said a

:hange for the better had taken place since 1807, greater
than had ever occurred in any part of the world in the

same space of time. He had had an opportunity,
within a few days, of learning from the high authority of
the Bishop of Jamaica, much upon the subject. and he
felt pleasure in assuring the House, that that Prelate's
report was highly satisfactory, both as respected the
present state of the negroes, and the progress that was
made in amelioration. He, therefore, so far agreed with
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Baring) that it was better both for
the negroes and for the interests of humanity, if Go-
•ernment in its interference did not disturb a state
of things which was every day getting better, sod
which, if rashly meddled with, would only lead. to
expense ssithout benefit. His Honourable Friend
had said that there were great numbers of negroes
in Antigua as well informed as the lower classes
in this country, and he would ask whether, such

being the case, be was not authorised in siying that
they were entitled to such means of progressive im-
provement as would give theM claims to the rights of
subjects? That, he thought, ought to be accorded them,
and the first measure for that purpose that ought to be
adopted, was to allow the evidence of such persons.
That was one means of progressive improvement which
should be conceded, and suffering it to go on
gradually and progressively would be far better than
the adoption of any such measures, which would cows
pel the necessity of a large compensation, and then
ruin the Colonies. He would not detain the House by
going through all the arguments which had been urged,
but said that the mode of compensation by appraisement
did not present such insuperable difficulties to his mind
as itdid to that of others. It was admitted, that if ode
slave was sold another might be found ; and the analogy
between a large and a small farm he thought fallacious,
because the value of a domestic animal was not greater
on one than on the other. He did believe that compulsory
manumission would have one effect, namely, that when it
proceeded to any extent, those slaves now used for c:0-
mestic purposes, would be forced, despite even of the
wishes of their owners, to labour in the sugar plantations.
Whenever the period arrived, in which, from slaves
being manumitted invito domino, that sugar cultivation
should be abandoned, then, an' not till then, it v.:4
that the principle of compensation beyond appraise-
ment should be allowed. But it was also known th.t
even at present the appraisers at Trinidad had acted
quite differently; and the consequence was, that when.
the order of Government was refused to be put in
practice there, the necessity arose from other inter-
ference. He begged the House to look to the Reso-
lutions of 1828, which embraced two points. The first
was an amelioration of the condition of the slaves, and
the other pact referred to the gradual change froth
slavery to freedom, and for that purpose nothing was
ever suggested but compulsory manumission; and he
begged of those connected with the West Indies not
to run away with the idea that unless Parliament
inteifered, the Government would depart from the
pursuance of the system of compulsory mAnurnis-
sion, of course accompanied by compensatiun. They
were bound, he was perfectly free to idmit, to at-
tempt some mode of melioration of the slave popula-
tion, net rapidly, of course, but surely and steadily.—
Done it must be, though he could not say in any time
to be specified—but sooner or later a change must, it
course, be effected in their civil condition. He would
not longer occupy the attention of thee House, nor
should he have trespassed upon its indulgence. even to
the extent that he had done, were it not that in the si-
tuation in which he stood, he felt bound to make the
observations. he had done.
Mr. BARING and Mr.W. SMITH explained.
Mr. F. BUXTON considered the question to have
been discussed with caution until an Hon. Member commenced
reading a lesson to those who did not take the same view as him-
self. The Hon. Member had conveyed charges of rulsr.presenta-
don. In like manner he was charged on a former occasion with
nth-statement, in sating there was use made of the cart-whip in the
Colonies. He was told the whip was never used, and soon after
came the proof that the cart-whip Lad been used, and that Gevern-
theist bad ordered it to be abolished. When the fri, ads of emanci.
radon asked for manumission, they were met by the call fur cant-
' pensation. An Hon. Member had described the Blacks to be the
Mat of Christians, and on a footing with the peasantry of England.
ilia wished the Hon. Gentleman to explain one point; if they were
ao well fed, so well clothed, and so moral, how did it happen that
they were the only people on earth whose Number decreased at a
rate which would depopulate the whole earth in slaty years? With
respect to compensation, he would not forget that the property of
Planters was derived from crime—(A cry of No, not crime!) r< as
it not felony ? Could any man suppose that a Planter in the Kest
Indies tore men, women, and children from their families, and ex-
posed them to the horrors of the middle passage, without knowing
It was a crime? The Government bad participated in crimes of
that description, but they stood upon a different footing. One
wished to make restitution of the stolen property, and the other said
-. No; I will not consent unless you give me compensation. The
Slave had a right to say. You have robbed me of my freedom, and
you most give me liberty. He was not for emancipation forthwith.
btaivner a ychntisotiudnetbn reasecdesnived blitusactratlyi!endutht :he negro, that bef might
suchun-
happy not
brings should be ameliorated. He should speak the plain
truth, namely, the planter might have a claim for property, but the
negro had a prior claim to liberty.
Mr. BERNAL supported the interest of the West
India Proprietors. He was not mere the Hon. Member for Wey.
month had spoken out in a manly. candid manner, b.cause it was
nrcessa: y the West India planter should know the sentiments s.f
marry Member on the subject. The Hon. Member had talked G t
compensatiou, but be bad put the rights of the negro higher than
those of the planter. That was not the course likely to sati.fy the
Colonists. They were a body • that would not be trampled on.
Having been appealed to for explanation why the Black population
decree d, he could only say that the old African race wts nut et-
duct, and so long as it contaminated the Creole, there would be a
diminution of the Black population. The Assembly of Jamaica had
done muck to ameliorate the condition of the slaves. They had gone
further than they were warranted by Lord Bathurst's instrtiktions.
They bad made the Blacks competent to give eviden.te in a Court
of Justice. Free men had been convicted on their testimony, but
the refusal of his Majesty's Council to confirm the Law ofhiMAIII