Star.
London, England, 1828-06-25 00:00:00

SHIPPING INTZREST.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM presented a Petition from
the Shipowners of Hull, complaining of the depression
of Shipping. That port, he observed, had risen to com-
mercial eminence from its trade with the Baltic, which
had now diminished to an alarming extent. It was
also well known that shipping had d. creased in one
year to the extent of 60,000 tons. The petitioners com-
plained of the alteration in the laws whereby prohibi-
tion had been substituted for protective duties. They
attributed their disasters to three causes. The first was,
the Treaties entered into in 1823 with Foreign Powers,
called the " Reciprocity Treaties:' 'The second was,
the departure from the principle of the Navigation
Laws ; and the third cause was, the increased value of
money consequent upon the measure of 1819. With
respect to this last subject, it was surprising that, al-
though it had been stated that that measure would
cause a depreciation of 30 per cent. yet the Right Hon.
Secretary for the Home Department, who•was the im-
puted anchor of the measure, did not offer to contradict
or disprove the statement. He hoped that next Session
his Majesty's Ministers, having had time to consider
the subject during the recce, would come forward with
some measures respecting our commercial and mone-
tary system, which Might tend to avert the dreadful
distress likely to ensue.
_

Sir J. YORKE thought, upon a subject which was
so much laboured as that of the Petition, the Honour-
able Baronet might have omitted bringing in the Bul-
lion Committee. He had done so apparently to foist
in some peculiar notions of his own upon the subject.
He did think, that when the Right Honourable Gentle.
man (Mr. Huskisson), who was First President of the
Board of Trade, then all at once Secretary to the Co-
lonies, and then nothing at all, very much, as he might
say, since be was present, from his own folly—be did
think that, in that famous long speech he made lately,
he had settled the question as to the shipping interest.,
He thought he had made it appear that the great evil
of the shipowners was, that they built and victualled
their ships at too dear a rate. If so, the only chance
they had of being able to compete with foreigners was
the lowering of prices; and it was impossible, there-
fore, to complain of any measure tending to that resu t.
Sr J. GRAHAM said, the petitioners themselves referred to
the alterations in the currency.
Mr. WARBURTON dimmed that, with the alteration in the
currency, the duties open aU articles connected with the building
of ships had corresrondendy risen.
Colonel TRkiNCH thought the Hon. Baronet had
well described the distress of the shipping interest.—
It was with them as with the owners of stage coaches,

Who were frequently obliged to go as running their
coaches at a loss, in hopes of better times. What he
'totted referred to the Right Honourable Member for
Liverpool, who made use of an argument, ad ridicalum,
by which be held up several respectable persons—he
Meant the body of shipowners of Scarborough—vo
ridicule. That was on the 18th of May, 1827, when
the Right Honourable Gentleman said of them. in a
tette appriiaching to a sneer, that, " this was the allega-
tion of the shipowners of Scarborough," whereas the
petition referred to was from an individual not con-
nected with the body, and he, therefore, called upon
the Right Honourable Gentleman to admit he was ial
error upon the point.
Mr. ii USICISSON owned he felt surprised at the Gal:
las Officer finding on the 24th June, 1828, the opportu-
nity fOr the first time to correct a misrepresentation al-
to have been made so long back as some time in
1827,m0re especially too when the House had been
only a week ago occupied the whole night with a dis-
cussion similar to what had taken place on the occasion
alluded to. If lie had given pain to the inhabitants of
Scarborough—who, he believed, did not send the Hon.
and Gallant Officer as their representative, and who, if
they did, did that which might have been done through
hoe of their Members—he would have perhaps felt
more on the subject. He could not. however,. then,
not being apprised by the Gallant Officer of the attack
intended, recollect the precise circumstances; and in-
deed it would be too much to call to mind all that he
had said 14 months ago, and refer to documents which
be Might then have made use of; but he regretted that
any ill feeling should have been cherished after such a
lipse of time. He never denied that the alteration of
the currency must have an effect as welt upon freights
is other transactions. And when the Gallant Officer
(Sir J. Yorke) thought that it was lucky that he was
now nothing. he might perhaps say the same of the
Gallant Officer's long continuance in the same state,
and hoped that while he had been out of office, he had
been able to exhibit as many proofs of good temper as
the Gallant Officer had during his long existence in the
same unfortunate situation.
Mr. ROBINSON defended the Petitioners from the
charge of inconsistency brought against them by the.
Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Warburton), as
they only came forward to show the poverty eegen-
acted by the present system. The Hon. Gentleman
said, that as to ship building in North America, that
was at an end.
Mr. DUNCOMBE confirmed the statement of the
Hon. and Gallant Officer (Colonel Trench).as to Scar-
borough, he having been entrusted with the Petitions
referred to.
Mr. HUME said, if guilt attached to the present
system, be was a sharer in it, as he had promoted the
passing of the Reciprocity Aga. When he did so, how-
ever, it was on the understanding that all taxes should
be taken off which would militate agaii*t fair eompeti.,
tion on the part of the British people. That bad been
dline as respected hemp and cordage, but continued
upon timber, which he objected to. He also thought,
thit although he never would wish to see the wages of
British seamen lower than they were, a fair opportunity
should be allowed to the ship-owners:of laying in their
provisions and sea stock at any place where they could
heve them upon equally cheap terms with foramogra.l
When there was no doubt we should be able to compel,
with them.
Mr. HEATHCOTE thought, that incidental debates
-el-this kind could do no good, and that it would be
bitter to post pone further discussion until the next Session.
Gen. GASCOYNE thought, that the currency must
hive a material influence on the question, and was sure
that the present measures respecting it would be greatly
altered. if not repealed, before neat April. The Hoc.
General referred to his Colleogne's declarations to his
constituents, and did not think his measures altogether
consistent with them. tie also said, that the Honour..
able Gentleman (Mr. Warburton) had mach more of
his capital invested in Foreign than in British shipping.
'Sir J. GRAHAM rescued the petitioners from thel
charge of inconsistency, as they did sot state the reduc-1
tion of 60,000 tons to refer to their own shipping, but,
as the effect produced upon the general proceedings of
those engaged io the trade throughout tbe country.
Mr .1; YORKE add. that be had not meaat any offence to the
Right Heassnible Member for Liverpool.
Colonel TRENCH said, that he had on a former oc-
casion addressed a note to the Right Hon. Gentleman,'
intimating his intention to mention the subject he bad
alluded to, but was not favoured with any reply. He
had also the other night intimated the same through the
Hon. Member for Worcester, wherefote be hoped he
bad rescued himself from any charge of discourtesy.
&Me a few words from Rh C. BeiILELL and the CIIMICILLOIL of
L, the Petitioa was ordered to be laid ea the table.
all
die modem that it be printed.
..; Q GRANT said, that great injustice bad been
tele 'to his Right Honourable Friend in the repeated
ducossions on this subject; and be (Mr. Grant) wished
that tiOnotuable Members would be good enough to
get Wrote inforsiaat ion on this subject before they levelled
attacks at those who did know something about it.
The reciprocity system, which it was now the fashion
to abuse in certain places, had commenced in 1810,
iniposed upon them by the necessity of the times, and
the change of circumstances. Practically, it existed
long. before 'that period, and since it had been called
into operation by an Or der in Council, and not, as stated,
Isky the fat or the will of his Right Honourable Friend.
He asked them to look at the page of history, and in
doh* so be *mild tearlessly ask them if it would have
Wen possible any longee,to retain a system of impotent
barbarism, such. as had existed upon this immense sub-
ject?—(Cheeri.)—Look at the state of Europe 50 years
ago and now, America was then a dependent colony ;
America was now one of the first couetriesinthe world.
The whole face of Europe, of tba world, bad altered
and improved ;. and he must protest against this goes-
tiOn being argued in selfish, narrow, miserable grounds ;
for let it not be forgotten, that it was not until the course
of :Nittut and the voice of the people forced it upon
them that they yielded--(Cheers). The best interests
of this greet country were trammelled by the ancient
sydem—her energies were crippled—hex activity lin.
pahed ; but still, li was not till others forced the reci-
rear system Rpm this country that the Government
acceded to it. The fore* of freedom--the force of in-
tellect—the general improvement of mankind gave,rise
to that independent, that wise, and political system, in
whose continuance the prosperity Of the world can be
alone maintained—(Cheers). Whenever the free trade
svievvs was discussed on the proper principles,ihn sa4rold
begiund ever ready to defend them. .
Mr. rIt*ING agreed with the Fight Hon. Gentleman
'rho bad just spoken, thit the.reciprocity system grew
but of the recommendation of a Committee of the
Bore, and did not proceed from the Right Hon. Gen-
tletiast (Mr. I:l4,ltisrn). .
The Patties was thee ordered'to be 'glutei.

. ,
Mr. *. HOttirOtt `s -• to note for the
=eif beinigisisi 1000 the coasideration of at*
t Itspoiatm a die ?Oita sf sukiyakis.. ft,

. ~.

.

would not impose *spew Parliament the necessity of
taking any decided Measure at the present moment; it
merely would go .te pledge the Houses to•take op the
subject eark in the ensuing Session. No man having
lac war moderate acquaintance with the condition of
Ireland could doubt that pauperism does eaist in that
country under the most frightful circumstances. Such
being the stat( of things, ought there to be the slightest
hesitation on the part of the Legislature to adopt some
measures of relief ? Were they not most imperatively
called to take some decided steps ? Who could undertake
to foretel the consequences that must ensue From the na-
tural tendency to spread itselfthroughout the whole com-
munity, which such a condition in any one part of it
necessarily created.? He was astonished in a debate on 1
a former evening to hear it stared by his Hon. Friend,l
not now in his place (the Member for Kerry), that it
was a mistake• to suppose that the state of behind
called for the especial consideration of that House.--a
His Honourable Friend referred to the export. and ins•
ports, for the purpose of showing the prosperity of that
country ; and it also astonished him to find that pot
only such was the opinion of that Honourable Mem-
ber, but that he found some supporters in that House.
Out of it there was some reason to believe that his
opinions were but little adopted. The Bishop of Li-
.nserick, no mean authority upon subjects connected
with Ireland, had in his evidence before the Committee
appointed in the year 1826, to inquire into the state
of Iceland, avowed sentiments goiter opposite to those
of the Honourable Member for Kerry, and those who
thought with him. No one who was aware of the'
character and situation of that Prelate could for a mot
.Ment impute to him any undue bias, or at all question
;his impartiality and competence. With the permission,
of the House he would then read a passage from the
evidence of that Right Rev. Prelate,which be conceived
to be most confirmatory of the statements be had been
making.—(The Right Honourable Gentleman then read
an extract from the evidence of the Right Rev. Prelate.)
On reflection, lie thought by possibility, that it might
be objected to that evidence, that inasmuch as it was
delivered in the year 1826, it might be in no wise ap-
plicable to the year 1828—that, in short, circumstances
which hate since occurred, might have altered the
be
of the Bishop of Limerick; and were he again to
be examined, he would give evidence the very reverse
of that which, with perfect sincerity and good judg-
'meat, he gave before the Irish Committee. In order
to neutralise whatever importance might be supposed
to attach to an objection of that nature, be made
an application to the Bishop of Limerick, inquiring
whether any circumstances had occurred since the year
1826, which would induce him to qualify in any man-
ner the evidence 'then given by him. To this the most
satisfactory reply had been given. He stated, that he bad
bad an opportunity of reading his evidence over again,
and he declared, that were he to be a second time exam-
ined upon the same subject, he should not alter or qualify
a single expression. The same causes continued to produce
the same effects—the miseries of that country remained
unabated, nor had any thing occurred during the last two
years at all calculated to diminish them. Those were the
views of a Prelate of the Established Church—those
were the emphatic terms which he used. The Irish
peasant is represented as lying the entire day on a litter
of straw ; rising in the evening to eat a few potatoes •
and then lying down to spend the night as be had passed
the day. These latter opinions and statements, the
House would observe, were in perfect accordance with
the sentiments of the Bishop of Limerick ; they were
the opinions of Dr. Doyle, the Roman Catholic Bishop
of Kildare and Leighlin. The life which he described,
before the Committee as being the life led by the Irish
peasantry, was one which all men must agree with Dr.
Doyle. bad better be terminated in any manner rather
'than continued under circumstances so frightful. He
added, that their best friends would rather pray to GOD
that they be relieved from such a condition, than con-
tinued in existence with every concomitant that could
make existence a burden. Thus, then, the House had
before them the evidence of Prelates of the two Churches,
both tending to the same direction. It was not neces-
sarily consequent upon his motion thata remedy should
be instantly suggested ; the effect of his Resolution, if
adopted. would be to leave it is the discretion of any
Member hereafter to follow op that preliminary step in
any manner that future circumstances might seem to
require. He could not but express extreme regret that
the subject had excited so little interest in the House, on
a matter of the very highest importance, not only to
Ireland, but to England also. It was, however, some
consolation to him, in the total absence of any support
in that House, to know that high authorities out of
'doors—authorities having great influence upon public
'Pinion—took rather a different , view of the question
Which it was his earnest desire to bring under the con-
sideratien of Parliament. When be spoke of high autho-
rities out of doors. be did not for a moment mean to
compare them with the wisdom of that House, but they,
nevertheless. had great influence upon the opinion of
the community at )arge. And it was remarkable, that
amongst the writers of whom he spoke, there existed
not only the most extraordinary coincidence of opinion,
as respected the question of emigration, but the most
decided opposition of sentiment on almost every other
question connected with Legislature and Goverment.
ILt the hope that he should thereby induce Hon. Mena-
- a to look more minutely into the question than they
;eight otherwise be disposed to do, he would read. some
passages, taking not;ce et the probable effects upon the
people of England, of the influx of Irish paupers to. this
country. Before doing that, however, he would remind
Hon. Members of a Report made to that House, recom-
mending that no specific relief should be given to Irish
paupers coming to this country. This he conceived to
have been conclusive as to the opinion of those by whom
the Report was made. To that 11E1)014 and to the (loci*.
meats which be had- read, and which he should mad
before he sat down, he entreated, in an especial degree,
the attention at least of the Irish. Members. Further to
strengthen his views of this question, he should read one
or two of the passages which he betore had glanced at.
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded to read extracts from
the Quarterly And Edinhargh Reviews, the Westminster
Reviete,aod other publications,ia coder to prove the extent
of suffering which prevailed in that unhappy country,
its consequence of an excessive, half-starved, hall-clothed
peasantrY-E vela Biadoeowrallfegieslne,although it abused
hint, singularly enough advocated the principle of emi-
gration. ,HO next celled the attention of che. Hoe se to re.
terns that had been made ef the number of families who
had received relidfroastheMendicitySociety,frorn which
it appeared, that in the Tear 1825, the number was
1,990; in 1826, 2,894 ; in 11127, 4,780. These returns,
be contended, showed in a maser the most conclusive,
that emigration of the Irish to this country was pro-
gressively increasing. sip that state of things, he felt it
to be his duty to bring the subject under the considera-
tion of Parliament. and ID Wrest fore it the serious at•
tendon el his Majesty's Geveromottts He was happy to
see his Right Hoe. Mead .the Suntory jot she Home
lepartmeot in his plat" and Welt an 4 pleasure is
I.sting diets that Right Hon. Gentleman had before
diepolition to sire toll*, atemore of mi.

'I • ,_

I • •. .

ration a favourable consideration. He then proceeded td
notice the mission of Colonel Cockburne to Nova Scotia,
visheansobaijecereit otrwahiebtionwwaserti*racery ttaoinsphcolacailaotin d
Ko isenettpostordivihin
she
.Government might kewPllo,oll ground to isee upoi.
nndsbat statements might boeuthentionted byolte anted.
,obserionism of an accreditestageos iskshe 00.01 MOO:
H. pistil to the House, whether* weeld netioehighly
desirable that some plan should be adopted, having fete,
its object to elevate a nee to happiness and content,
who were at present in the extreme of wretchedness.
He was perfectly aware that, many who might egret:
with him io principle might, nevertheless, differ from
him as to the extent to which it, might be desirable ti
carry his views ; but he felt bound strongly to contend
that nothing really effectual could be accomplished situ.
less it were upon a considerable scale. The most nature
reflection had convinced him, that unless a part of the
population were removed, or unless a large additional
capital were applied to stimulate trade in Ireland, it
would be in vain to hope for any relief from the
pressure of population. He then proceeded to tom-
bat the views which were stated. in a petition re-
cently presented to the House, and adverted to the
hostility of the Catholic Association to any measure of
emigration. The fact was, and it could not be dis-
guised, that so long as the present state of things conti-
need' in Ireland, they could not expect any smeller*.
lion in the affairs of that country ; for while a col-
lision of sentiment and opinion existed there, even the
attempts that might be made towaida improvement
were certain to be repressed by one party or other,
,which might fancy its, own advantage to be connected
with the continuance of the existing
:state of things.
Could there be any foundation tor the, argument
that absentee Irish proprietors ought to be 'obstructed
in the receipt of their rents, if they preferred ea-
:pending their incomes in England to expending them '
In the country from which they Were derived ?.
That principle, if acted on, would be equivalent to the
establishment fan Agrarian Lai in Ireland, and might
be expected to produce an effect similar to the intro-
duction of the Poor Laws into that country in its pre-
sent condition. If the latter project were now adopted
Red carried into operation on the English' system, there
was no doubt the whole rental of Ireland would be
thereby absorbed. He spoke now of the immediate in.
troduction of the Poor Laws into Ireland as at present
circumstanced, and without due time being afforded
fee undertaking and carrying into effect the necessary
huprovements. If this be the case, and the system of
the Poor Laws cannot now be adopted, they wanted a
remedy to be substituted for them more adequate to
the removal of the evils complained of, and better cal-,
ciliated for the existing state and condition of the',
Country. What was that remedy? What but to reduce
the supply of labour as compared with the demand?.
On this, and this alone, the future well-being and pros.'
perity of the people must depend. When he beard of
reductions in our establishments, of reductions in the
stripy and navy, with a view to relieve the pressure at
present experienced by the labouring classes, he found
it impossible to disguise from himself the fact, that so
far from this system being attended with beneficial
consequencei, it must, in the present condition of. the.
country, inevitably produce effects of a contrary des
scription. Such reductions would only tend to pro-
duce an overflow of labour in a market already over-
stocked. Any remission of taxes at the present
moment must be attended with injurious effects upon
the lower classes. He did not mean to say that,
under a sound system of things, they should keep up
larger establishments than they wanted; be spoke now
only with reference to existing circomstancee. It was
accessary that the causes of the present state of things
should be carefully looked into, and there was little
doubt that an accurate inquiry would wholly negative
the apprehensions of those who were of opinion that, if
relief be afforded to the population by coloninst'on in
North America or elsewhere, the vaccuum thus created
would be speedily filled. He admitted that if a popula-
tion were allowed toremain in a degraded and reckless
state, it was not improbable that the removal of a por
Lion of the people to other countries, by means of emi-
gration. would be followed by an increase in the
bey of those who remained at home. But if the people
were once elevated above such a standard, and con-
vinced of the propriety of adhering to the rule, that.*
dividuals of the lower classes should not marry and have
families without possessing probable means for the r
support, the case would become widely different. In
opposition to the assertion, that it was easier to give
support and employment to the working classes at home
rthan abroad, and at one-fourth the expense that would be
necessary to enable them to emigrate, he was prepared'
to maintain that the contrary we:the fact. He would un-
dertake to prove that a family could be sent from Ireland
to Canada, and, to use that expression, planted there, and
placed in a situation to enablethem to 'work out their
.own independence, for a sum of money not twice the
amount of that which would be necessary to plant them
in Ireland. How came it, if it were true that such ample
remuneration for agricultural investment existed in
Ireland, that individuals were not found willing to
employ their capital there in that way? If there was
that degree of inducement and facility for the invest.
meat of capital in Ireland. in agricultural speculations,
it would be so employed. If it were attempted to.bring
waste land into cultivation, he thought the experiment
would fail, and, so far from producing beneficial ef-
fects, would be attended with results of an opposite de-
ecription. It would decrease the remuneration on ac-
Wont of agricultural investments generally, and pro-
.duce prejudicial effects upon alt classes of the commst-
airy. It it was true that there was a great quantity of
len&in Ireland which was reclaimable, and of superior
quality to some of the land in cultivation in this
country—and if it were possible to bring this land into
cultivation. and supersede the difficulties arising out of
the legal claims existing upon it—still the consequence
Must be to affect, more or less, the proprietors of all
land of interior quality, and generally to depreciate the
value of all descriptions of agricultural produce. He
begged to ask, with respect to this country, what was
the nature of the principal difficulties that it had re-
cently experienced? A paper had been laid upon the
table of the House, from which it appeared that there
was an increase of nine per cent. in the poen rates all
over England during the course of the last yeas. It was
evident that this per tentage came out of the rent of
land ; for when a farmer took a farm, he calculated'
all his outgoings, and paid a less amount of rent in
proportion to the increased amount of poop's rates,
and other charges subsisting upon the land. It was
one of the objects of she Emigration Committee
to point out the distinction that subsisted between a
regulated system of emigration, for which .provision
had been previously made, and one of a blind and
casual
aitoa character.advanceintain t
h personse moneyli ei theirmaintainediwoirt tollae e nitotvtoawl country.aw oshfoi infinitely
mifila nut
thereErir try
4basterecbsenaPteapr'number of
assisted no demand for their labour, and who could not
be •maintained here at an expense of less than U. per,
haps he might say 51. a head—suppostn_ for exampl,

that there wne3oo,ooo sfthese„ it would cilia 000.nnoL
sterling of annual revenue to support them I Now mit,
of this sum would be sufficient to relieve el
from the Witten, and place them in a state of comps.
,restive comlort and prosperity. This might becalmed
tea Or the ground that the encouragement of etnigratina
amounted to a tax upon the State. It was futile to
make use of an argument of this kind. If the national
livens* wee 4eteirimseediw the amount above new
was It not better to apply the money to remove a per;
tion of the unemployed population, and ultimate!,
relieve the country and the revenue? Asi er '
idea seemed• to possess the minds of some person,
who, seefog the condkion of the countty as it reme
the general depression of the laboUring elanee;llZ
gined it was therefore necessary to remove the sea,
jority of persons belonging to them. Now this emu hu,
no means the case. If there were one hundred ;Q.
viduals on a bench where there was only comforter
ble room for eighty, take away twenty of these, and dse
remaining eighty would be in a state of ease and cots;
fort without its becoming necessary to remove the wholes
In like manner, if a plantation were toe full and crowded
to admit of the trees thriving, we took away a portion
of them, and their removal bene6tted the remainder,
and enabled them to flourish an 4 attain a healthful
condition. He would apply the same principle to
populition —if a certain portion of the unemployed
labourers were removed trom the market, the peke
of labour would be improved, and the condo3l
of those who remained ameliorated. He (Mr. Wil.
mot Horton) had never argued that emigration,
except it . were accompanied with temedial measures
of
,another description, would be attended with any
considerable advantages. He found there was ma
.a growing opinjoo. in Ireland, that the evils of that
i
country did, in a great degree, consist n the redon-
dancy•of the population, and it was matter of satidsr,
tion to have to perceive that there now existed g wish
to prevent . the growth of that evil. it had bees
argued, in relation to the subject of emigration,
that the effect of sending our population to the
Colonies would be to induce the Colonies to throe of
their allegiance, for the purpose of avoiding payment
of the advances made to the settlers by Government.
Now, the view he entertained in relation to this print,
he should shortly state to the House, Was it not a no.
unions fact that we paid every year a large tarn of
money on account of the military and other expenses
of our Colonies? He sever proposed to act otherwise

with respect to repay menu, on account dutch advances,
than to place the amount in the hands of the Colonists
themselves, and render it available towards diminish.
ing the etpenses which we bad now to undergo on their
behalf. It would be of inestimable advantage to the
progress in-wealth and prosperity, and to the velem,
tion to ourselves of our North American Colonies, td in.
trodnce into them an augmented population, the effect
of which must be to tender them to this country an ao
keesiou of strength and a source of prosperity, instead
of an incumbrance and a cause of butthensome metes
tore. He must call upon (iovernmei t to go theist
it least, to take into its early and attentive coosidetatios
the expediency of forming in this country a son of Co.
lonial Board, which :Might afford means and opporno
nity to individuals wishing to invest property itt the Ca
loaies,of knowing all the circumstances connected with
the Canadian waste lands, and of obtaining information
of: various kinds very necessary for them to
hat not now accessible. This plan might be :4:
without involving the Government in any
as, the general question of emigration, and
thaeght that- many and unmixed advantages would
be attained by means -of it... These were his general
views on a subject which bad engaged much of his
time and attention, and which be considered of great
importance to the country. He *as ready to agree in
what was, no doubt, the opinion of many Hors Meer
bets, that many of the details connected with the ques-
tion were much more suited for being considered in
the closet than in the House of Commons, particularly
as involving abstract principles cf a somewhat difficult
nature. But, without entering into a discussion dutch
principles, he trusted he had said sufficient to shoe
that the subject was one well worth the attention efts
Government and the House. He hoped Government,
'in the interval that would be afforded by the apple&
ing recesss and previous to the next Session of Podia•
ment, would examine into the question, for the put.
pose of seeing whether anything of a practical nature
could be recommended for the adoption of the Howe.
He should only add, that horn the first hour in which
be had turned his attention to this subject, now above
five years ago, down to the present time, every succeed-
ing month had tended to convince him of the sound-
ness of the arguments adduced in favour of emigration,
and he yet trusted, by convincing the minds of others
in an equal degree with his own of its great impottatrei
that he should be one day able to prevail upon them to
devote their serious attention to the subject. The Right
Hon. Member then mooed the following Resolution:
“ That, early in the next Sadao of Parliament, the Nonni/laid
take into consideration the expediency of enacting such wriumot
whether of emigration or otherwise, which should appear best Co 4
collated to relieve paupethas in Ireland s to prevent the evil rem
arising therefrom to England; and thereby to beta the contlidso
of the labouring classes of ash country."
The motion having been put and seconded,
Mr. GRATTAN observed; that as the Right Hon.
Gentleman had, in the course of his speech, made fre-
quent allusions to his country, be felt called upon to
make a few observations oion the motion. The Right
Hon. Gentleman was ensious that the Irish, landlord
should contribute towards the support and improve
ment of the poor ; he fully concurred in this opinion.
Let the landlord but commence an improvement--ke
the tenant but follow his example, and the system of
emigration now proposed by the Right Honourable
Gentleman would be found unnecessary. The ques-
tion of emigration had been so often discussed io
that House, that he did not feel warranted to (stet
into details upon it. There was hardly a Gentleman is
Ireland who did not yearly lose a number of persons oif
his land in this way. This was all well enough ; but
the Right Hon. Gentleman was anxious to introduce as
,organized system of emigration, the very thing which
he was anxious to avoid. Much might be effected by
tl)e Irish landlords in ameliorating and improving the
condition of the people, but he much feared that the
plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman could sot be re'
alised. The Hon. Member, after some additional
observations, concluded by opposing the motion.
Mr. S. RICE was anxious to give his most cordial
support to the motion of his Right Hon. Friend, who
deserved the thanks of the country for having so ably
,wrought the question under the consideration rf
the
House. His Right Hon. Friend was not, as a Member
'of that House, bound to introduce any practical measure
of relict ; all that could be expected of him was, that be
should suggest such a course as might with advantage
be pursued by Ministers. Much had been said of the
mportation of Irish persons into this country ; bet he
felt satisfaction in stating, that the Magistrates and the
Country Gentlemen of England bad borne testimony
o the goad character and more habits of the prover
_lasses of Irish, who sought to relieve their distresses ry