Star.
London, England, 1816-02-27 00:00:00

.

that amity, instead at British troops ...1 &SO
it -should have been paid by the Treasury bets.
Another part of this army, to the amount of 15,00
men, was intended to be kept in Ireland. This was
much larger than there appeared any necessity for.
The excuse Was, that. it was to be employed IS pee-,
venting smuggling ; but the danger. in his opinion,
which we had to fear was, the consequences of Oiling.
upon soldiers to interfere with the private alias of
the people. He must say, that if the House pro-
ceeded in this way, we should have to lament that
we had ever entered into the war, for we should lose
the rights of a free people. He concluded with re-
penting his intention of moving an Address fur a re-
duced establishment, provided his opposition to the
present Motion should succeed, in • order that the
people-might know, that the House was alive to their
real interests.
Mr. FRANK LAND LEW IS thought the present
question of such immense importance. that it wo
the duty of every Member to exacise upon it his free
and unbiassed judgment. It was of infinitely greater
magnitude than any other subject which had come
before the House during the three years he had sat
in it. He had no doubt that it world be resisted by
that great and independent body, the Country Gen-
tlemen, as being a question exclusively their own,—
They had always rallied round the Constitution, and
they would not, in th's instance, relax in their duty ;
.and he called on them to think for themselves, to
look at the means of the country, to look at its
danger, and to decide not only what we are to main-'
Main as an establishment, but also what power we
have to support it. He needed scarcely to remind
these Gentlemen how firmly and independently their
ancestors did their duty in the reign of King W-
liam, when they called from that Monarch his
Dutch Guards, who had been the companions of his
victories. He urged the House only to look twenty
years back, when Mr. Pitt attempted to press on Go-
vernment the necessity of laying out no less than
4400,000 upon fortificat:ons. At that time it was
not Mr. Fox who resisted him ; 4 was the country
Gentlemen, headed by Mr. Bastard, who opposed
him, and Mr. Cornwall, the Speaker of that day,
gate his casting vote, which rescued the people from
the danger they apprehended. He called on the
country Gentlemen to consider this question on. the
same grounds. For himself he must say, that the
measure seemed formed on a perfectly false view of
our means and our dangers. • Our debt WAS im-
mensely great, compared to its state at any former
period of peace. At the end of the American war
its interest was only about nine millions, and all that
was required to be raised within the year was fifteen
millions. At this time the whole property of the
country was estimated from one hundred and twenty
'to one hundred and thirty millions. Now the interest
was forty millions, and the annual establishment pro-
posed amounted to 20 millions more. Thus we were to
have an annual taxation to the amount of sixty mil-
lions. Now, if any one would take the trouble to
deduct from the Property Tax, the number of per-
sons whose incomes were acquired by their talents
or labour, such as lawyers and others, the real pro-
perty of the country would be found to amount to
not more than ISO or 140 millions--so that we should
have to raise in taxes almost one half of the actual
property of the nation. Then let it be considered
whether we are not in great danger of soon coming
to the end of our resources t About two years ago
the Right 11-.nourable Gentleman opposite talked of
taking a part of the Sinking Fund, to appropriate
to the purposes of the State, on the ground that
taxation had found its limits. If this were the case
then, what must be cur situation when the taxation
for a time of peace swallows up all our means, so
that, if we were unhappily driven into a new war, we
should be unable to support it t He would therefore
say, that we must not incur the danger, if we can
pos,ibly avoid it, of consuming in peace what we
mry want for war. It was manifest that if, under
such circumstances, a war were to break out, we
could not maintain the struggle for two years.—
Consumed resources were the very we rst evil to
which we could be reduted, at a time when its dis-
tresses were of a magnitude that must alarm and
astonish all who conic to the knowledge of them.
Thus he entreated the House to turn their attention
to the danger. We were, as tar as Ministers assu-
rances went, confirmed in our alliances, and being
thus bound cordially together, these was less danger
of this union being dissevered from jealousy than
there was of any alliance ever made in Europe, of
which England formed a part, Where then was the
need of this establishment ? As the army of France
was destroyed, there was surely no military danger rp
be apprehended on her account. If we kept up mea
at Cambray it was perfectly needless to keep them is
Colchester; in short, if our army was to be kept la
France, we did not want it here. The same might
be said respecting a large naval establishment ; it is
not required. Neither France nor Spain have any
navies at all. As to our troops for foreign stations,
they appeared large beyond all possible necessity.,
There was to be eleven thousand men stationed lift
Gibraltar, but there was uo reason to divine why a
higher number of men were wanted there Maw UM
was necessary in 1791, when the establishment writs
between tour thousand and five thousand men. In
the lonian Islands there were to be 3500. He would
call upon the House to consider the nature, terms,
and principles of that acquisition, in- order to 'see
what grounds there were for any danger arising ids
those islands. It could not be from Russia or from
Austria, for it was by the concurrence of those two
Posters that we' took possession of theta. It was
surely not to protect ourselves against the inhabi-
tants, for they conceived that our coming was from'
a disposition to 'deliver them from the thraldom udder
which they had previously laboured. He 'must there-
fore think that twelve or fifteen hundred men woad
be a number fully adequate for those possessions,—
The same might be said of Batavia and Ceylon, and
riven of India itself, where, it we were anxious to find
an enemy, we had to seek him on the frontiers of
Napaul er Thibet. He therefore thought that all
our foreign establishments were too large; and he
was sure the House would think that fourteen thou.
sand men for the West Indies was out of all propor-
tion. In 1791 the establishment for these colonies was
not more than 2000, and surely they were even more
safe now than a t that period, or than than they everwere
•
while the chain of French colonies remained unbroken.
About 4000 Men wbuld,•in his opinion, be amply
Mks= foi• them. Another important subject was

force td be kipt.o...p.c fzudietio
Le
~ ,
• ,
• _.- •
keasefenhal:i"nt walswrbew*aitsi. cadondte4ded, was not to be regardel Petri t
eßwarsatitzehricrlaiithhoorbeilthaentsavea;
strengthened of C •
consider
Quebec. There was a force Ana- . the expense which the
for the possession of Upper Canada materially Peace Establishment. 14
- nit" ot
arrant,,. .-.
dian militia, so excellently disciplined, that full re- lion would throw upon the c 'witty! 4714
Hance might be placed on it, as to its assistance in ,to be asserted that the erne,
case of , caesed the
..
Wasou4lambee ,cbili4sYnemonftsTe present, over
IdOvenret4i,klielifil°"er Peettn i
1
i
t tltheisspeidcetainlgvalspretlietantd,dittete
et 1 ,
that itjk
into the teal state of that country, , army were disbanded to-morrow:tee ea, • i
degree of local adrift, and the Eivrli•lt
r. • e ten Aiers made
---i.e
liftnonrs
peC‘hvitilifyid;sitfyligi
inquiry)kjener'et w
disturbance Anna tithes; but there was no symptom and dustnwa of—(hear, h: r, , .
at rear
that there is a great I
f
thousand men, except to that of former times. Was the situ ti7:l4
of rebellion against the Government. . There could deducted from the total expense 01 niewh,ezzisi.
therefore be nothing to occ.tsion the continual employ- account, would not bring it down to
4. la
fi
theiry e
aid
was not grounded on like what it was when Mr. Fna t),..,u,,h. Lott
assist
ttlii.eerepoilifiert,waehntay
int stit talons Con t:e o. t,„ ie
the half- a • the allowsn
But it was
.tinpos- Peace Establishment; He wished 1 I
:tifettl
cvs, the
sAiibiyiept,olsistpiyakurenectiitiai:lsinibejceecstotwy
:thout lamenting the
thatechalitde
Ittesio
unhappy course which had been pursued towards . . fleeted woe th' -.
pet ind, end the tar:Z:4
Ireland ; and seeing the vast expense that must be which had nothing to do with its pre.eilt
entailed upon us, he hoped he should impress on the strength, and it would be seen horn be `li I
stioncedoeit'lt:i. garrisoo dnty, to etietu
House the necessity of resorting to a different system that these created a charge of
of Government in that country. There was an idea which would have covered the tot.' et •t 4
abroad, that we were about to adopt a different army iii 1791. The pay of the toi.ii Net
ttohethues
usual
lllection establishmentsof t ti e
orteven Custom-ue in
ndeocuebsiseairy
House and Excise cutters w. re to be superseded by hurl establishments and dock.yards, and :
slyrestrnd,inanrdegtahradt
an army. He had no idea that it was proper to em- the subject, must exceed that wlech was kr!? •
ploy a military force for this purpose, if it could pos. any former day. On the face ef th. _ •Ni
roe 1
Orly be avoided. if an army wereeo be disposed of mates, a variety of items would be ene„jy,
inithis manner, it must necessarily be scattered in not formerly included ill sieoele docurteito
small divisions, which would pervert discipline. ..7. charges were then paid, he did net kaNt,
But if any case could be made at, which should in! they were not thus brought forward, )1t
duce the House to think that so large a portion as under the circumstances he had cleserleee2a,
twenty-five thousand men was necessary for the secu- nal mole could be of opinion, that the to
rity of Ireland, then be would say, that the good old had former:), been kept op woaid nno 'wok
system-of this country had been lost sight ot. If a He would defy the Ck.uttlemen ~gyp-sites,
military force were to be kept for any purpose what- present situations, to frame 4.1 y thing like. ..t. ,
ever, in this country, it ought to be the constitu- tory plan ter carryieg Am the 14,1ic kr,c,
a,
tional militia, which was the best auxiliary we could force like that which hid bum ntaintaieei ..
11.
desire. It would not fail to strike the House. Itliet and if they were to come over to the a1ii„,,1%.
at the termination of the war, the persons who Nimbi of the House, he was sure tt.tl would
at tit
form our militia, would be such as were already. ac- that k was imposohle. Tee hiwry (I! t,,
customed to service and discipline, and they would proved our former peace establislantes to .
consequently come ready trained, and prove a more insufficient. He thought to these it oral
effectual force of the kind than we had had at any tome of its wars, (which, however, he , . •
former period. This would certainly be a more efli- certainly many of the difficulties with moth%
cient mode than employing a standing army. It had to contend, and many of the reverses arj .
was astonishing that so large a number of men should pointments which had been (leer:erect Ai
be voted now for the Local Militia. He should have commencement of the war with France, seem
thought that it would have been much wiser to have sitively in danger from our peace establienet
curtailed this branch oldie expenditure. having been calculated on a scale suitabk,
Mr. C. YORKE thought it would have been more fence of the country. In the year 17%1%
orderly to have taken up the debate on the whole war broke, out between this country and . .
i
Estimates, when they were before the House in the (though, as we were then at war wit:, Ste
Committee. He complimented the Honourable ' might be considered to !rive been eartlypepLl
Gentleman on the manly and becoming manner in it,) a French Fleet of twenty sail of the ht.,:
which he had made his remarks—had no doubt' the Chanel, and cast anchor at Dungesee,
without that, by attending with, his usual sincerity that time forty-two thousand men, uaic
and candour to the course of the Debate, he would Sere, were ready to be transported to our s:xsa,
be induced to alter his opinion. He apprehended we had, from the best information he had lea
that there could be no question at this per lad, ohe- to obtain, but eighteen thousand men in rat e
ther we ought to have a standing army or not? The pose them. In 1779, when we were ergetedi
enormous extent, the enormous surface and wealth of American war, we were in imminent Gauge •
the country-(Hear)-rendered it absolutely necessary, howirittes recommenced between this crawl
if we meant to preserve the blessings that had been France. A few years ago, when all belt
handed down to us by our ancestors. Such bad been under the cnntr'ui of Bonaparte, who reek
the practice of the country ever since the Revolution, foreseen that the Allies of England weld a
at which time a standing army was first established, have been in possession of Paris? Free ea
and has continued to the present time. He therefore wished it to be considered that we onglalsrat
apprehended, that there could be no possible objec- tent with being prepared for that w'Ai it ea ,
Lion to the practice. Nobody would be more ready ble would occur : it was necessary that ow • •
' than himself to admit, that a legal and constitutional preparations should be commensurate sin tie
jealousy ought to be exercised on this subject, as far interests we hid at stake, leaving nothingalet,
as related to a standing army being under the con- He was anxious that the force kept up sheiks
trout of the Crown; but the amount of the jealousy larger than was really • necess try. That iii•
ought not to go beyond the proportion uf the amount was now proposed to maintain Wa not the
of the army. Nobody was more anxious than him- Establishment ; it was the force which pecula
self that the standing army should be under the Civil cumstances made it necessary to mai:vain ism
Government, and especially subject to the controuL year after the termination of the were. The
of Parliament. The ancient jealousy against a Honourable Gentleman proceeded to slier
standing army, it ought to be recollected, was against many of the charges to be met iu the pretest.
such a force being maintained in these realms, and , were of a temporary nature.- [la going t
not so mach from an approbation of that which i these, he was so remarkably inaneode, that ittne
might be kept up in our foreign possessions. This I posliiblz to follow hi:n with 1nt:654)11.3 -at
was expressed in the Bill of Rights, as it was in the de., the policy of keeping imp an army in Free,
Mutiny Bill founded on the Bill of Rights. He, how- coatente:d that the difference bereein tie Ts
ever, approved of the practice which had been intro- the present arrangement and that of the pee
duced in modern times of bringing the army kept up blishment proposed by Mr. Fox. in 1751,
in our foreign possessions under the contralti ot Par- partly out of the different character of tic tiro •
liament, as well as that enaintaintal within these in the American war, Englatol lost thintesCl
realms. The increase of men which the present Peace nies, the island o' Ni.,:inca, the Floritlas• .30,1
Establishment required, was small compared with the ' territories : in do. last, we had obtained MAN '
increased greatness of the country. When it was con- merara, Trinidad,V C • d other
ie ape, an many
sidered how much it had increased in every way— skins. The smallness of the former peace ebt •
,in population, in wealth—(Near, hear!)—He wished' rent was caused by the loss..s which the vim:
to know if those who cried " Hear" v.ere of opinion sustained; and the largeness of the styptics
there was no wealth in the country. He would not for in the present year partly arose from tLeadt
interrupt his argument to go into that question now, tapes we had gained. He then compared me
but he saw an Hon. Gentleman opposite who knew the charges which were to be met on 'the two -
what wealth was, and he did not expect to bear from sions, and spewed that in 1784 it had teen , -
him that there was any scarcity of real wealth in the to raise the sum of £900,000 by new tazet,og"
country. One objection• which had been made to the in the present year it was proposed to eikt4
force it was propured to keep up was, taat it would I sum ot Jew,ooo,ooo from these already laid*,
be dangerous to the liberties of the country. Nuw the reductions to he tnade in time Preperty Tw
. when the state of the Militia was looked at, and when in the other measures which had been stetedots
all the circumstances of the country were fairly taken the centemplation of Governm: tn. Tae
into consideration, he would put it to the common rangemenr, the ditE:rent circumstances of Ilia; ,
sense of the House, and of the Nation, it it were not ar the two period, considered; was not mote e
a mere chimera to talk -of jealousy of the army, be-Igant than that of 17:4. In enurnetaricg theeld:.
cause it -was to be Bor 9000 men stronger than it had which must he met by :he country, even if the
been 26 years ago, on a former Peace Establishment. were disbanded, he set forth those of the Wilr!
With. respect to the evils which bad been heretofore fleets, the out-pensioners of Chelsea, t!7e Mo.
experienced in this country from a standing army it Asylum, the Compissionate List, and othrtst
would be desirable to know something. The only in- amounted together to £1,900,000. The cleil-
stance to be found in our history in which the Crown made for the Volunteers having been mule, at.'
bad attempted to make use of a standini; army of 41,000,000 would still remain for the areal
against the rights of the people, was that furnished The force proposed to be kept up was neceiwt
by Jamis 11. Heendeevoured to use the standing it was reserve to b
proper we should have some
army to the subversion of constitutional liberty ; butt the deficiencies uhich would occur in the c'-tat
with what success ? The result was this—the army tioned in France ; and he believed a very snA
immediately went to the right abdut, and declared serve had been smiled for this I.urpose• The!'
for the Constitution, and the people—it hurled the maintained in Ireland was not more than wits •
King from his throne, and compelled his Ministers to riously elernanded by the circumaances of tlistc:
iiy the country. If such was formerly the conduct of try. With the eXtencled possessions we at P 7
a British army, what was there in the conduct of the held, exposed to sudden attacks from so two! S
army of the present day, or' in the character of its tern, we ought to be prepared against the eiT
1011
officers, that ought to make us at all suspicious that which threatened our dorninicns ; and where s_cei
our liberties are at all in danger horn them ? [Here portant interests were at stake; the expense '1.711
it was said, ow the opposite side of the House., that it 40,000 men, mote or less, was not au obymtP
bad.not been intended to cast any reflection en those first mag his oda
nitude.
who at present composed our army,] It was said no • Mr. BROUGHAM rose to express
resection was meant on the present army.—why then raent and indignation at the sentiments calt2
1
the reasoning they had heard was not applicable to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentjeman w 0
the situation of the country at the present day. It just sat down—at the languai calm
in which
thesewc4
could only be brought to bear on the abstract ques- menu had been uttered—at the cool,
ato
tion a it could not affect a temporary arrangement ;, which he had laid down principlts oab"

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