Star.
London, England, 1829-06-03 00:00:00

lkite Mr, it works deserved's!, for the empire at
vioilui destructively for the country and its
coloffies--it worts against every one of the great inte•
mu of this country, against the welt being of its trade,
its nsamtfactares, its agriculture. Majorities (and ac-
cording to my views of the question which have been
carried) fatal majorities, in this House, have been largely
swelled by means of this influence; and what is most
mischievous is, the existence of such a system degrades
this House in the estimation of the people. The re-,
presentative body loses tbe respect and confidence of
the body represented. It is to this cause, Sir, that the
indignation of the country ascribes the success of the
odious principle of free trade—a principle which, if
persisted in, will spread the desolation still farther which
so fearfully prevails, and is now preuing so severely
on our commerce. To this again is to be attributed
the largeness of that majority which lately overthrew
the constitution, and proved to the people how very
little their prayers were heard or heeded. How, then,
sir, is a system so mischievous to be mended? Which
ore the most pressing of its evils? Where should
the proposed reform begin? Unquestionably in the
extinction of decayed boroughs. Whether this should
be effected by compensation or without compensation,
and whether we should extend our inquiries to self-
elected Corporate Bodies possessing the rights of fran-
chise, will be matter for future discussion; but, Sir,
vital interests are in the mean while at stake. The nation
knows and feels it to be so ; it feels it in all the ramifi-
cations of its commerce; in all the elements of its wealth
end greatness; it feels it in the very husbandry of its
toll, the staple of its power and prosperity ; and it feels,
too, that it is not sate to trust to burgage tenures and
proprietary influence what should be confined to a
chaster representation. The disease, no doubt, is of
long standing, but the seat of it has been well ascer-
tained, and it will require no great skill in political
anatomy to remove the parts affected. They cannot be
cured—they must be cut away—
immeetesteie menus
Ease recideneum, ire pars mincers ashater."
Entertaining therefore, Sir, these sentiments, and im-
pressed with a strong feeling that in the existing etr-
cumstances c.f the country (which it would be idle for
any man to seek to disguise from himself) it would be
expedient for this House not to separate without evinc-
ing some disposition to take this question into its consi-
deration at no distant period, I have thought it my duty,
at this eleventh hour, to direct the attention of Hon.
Members to it; and I shall conclude my present obser-
vations by conjuring them to bear in mind the ever
memorable words of Burke, as cited by Mr. Fox. "
presentation (not the unreal mockery, but the efficient
substance of representation) is the sovereign remedy for
every dis irder, the infallible security against popular
discontent." His Lordship concluded with moving Re-
solutions declaratory of the impropriety of the smaller
boroughs sending Members to Parliament.
)Zr. O'NEILL seconded the motion.
Mr. BENET f said that he considered the question of
Reform as paramount to all others. They might bej
told that this question was brought forward at a late
period of the Session; but so had other questions, and
that more with a view to give notice that at some future
period such subjects would be brought forward, than
with any expectation of any immediate result. These
Resolutions, he supposed, were to be looked upon as a
pledge that the Noble Marquis would himself, in the
next Session of Parliament, bring forward the subject
of Parliamentary Reform; and be trusted, from the li-
beral measures lately taken by the Government, that
•the measure would be more favourably entertained than
heretofore it had been. The statement of facts con-
tained in the Resolutions of the Noble Marquis could
not be gainsayed, for its correctness had been repeatedly
proved at the bar of that House. He did not entertain
any wild ideas of reform; all be wanted was to see the
wishes of the people fairly represented in that House.
Mr. HUME said, that no man who knew any thing
of what had been advanced io evidence at the bar of
that House or in Committee could doubt the truth of
the assertions in the resolutions. If there were any man
who did not know of that evidence, that man might
vote against the resolutions, which, he trusted, would
be pressed to a division. The facts appeared to him so
plain, that he was anxious to hear W there was any Hon.
Member who would controvert them in -his place.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he was not prepared
to affirm these resolutions, and therefore, in obedience
to the challenge of the Hon. Member, he rose to oppose
their adoption. Though he differed from the Noble
Lord who had moved them, he must admit both the
temper and ability with which he had brought the sub-
ject under the consideration of the House; and although
his Majesty's Government bad the misfortune to meet-
with his disapprobation in this particular occasion, he
could assure the Noble Lord that that citcumstancd did
not in the slighte.t degree abate the satisfaction with
which he had beard the descendant of an illustrious
warrior, and the representative of a noble house, vie&
sate and support his •pinions with an ability worthy
.the cause he had undertaken and the name ire bore.—
Whatever might be the opinions of iniiividual Members
upon the princi, le of the question now brought before
them, it was a question of such vast magnitude that
they must all agree that it ought to have ample de•
liberation, and he submitted at a time when, if they
were prepared to form abstract resolutions on prin-
ciples, they should also be prepared to follow up those
resolutions with some practical measure for the en-
to' cement of any principle they might have, affirmed
.to bessound. He thought, therefore, that the Noble
Lord, in moving' these resolutions, did so rather with a
view to give notice of. his intention of submitting a
proposition relative to Parliamentary reform to them
early in the nest Session of Parliament, than with any
hope that at this period of the Session the House would be
prepared to affirm these resolutions. He could not
think the Noble Lord meant otherwise when he remem-
bered that the business of the House was so nearly
brought to a close that he believed within two days it
would allow them to adjourn. Would the House,
without inquiry, consent to resolutions which branded
with disgrace a considerable portion of the represen-
tative system ? The Noble Lord, not content with
wishing to put an end to the abuses of the representa-
tive system, absolutely affirmed, in his second resolu-
tion, that the existence of small boroughs was disgrace-
ful to the character of the House. Now, if he (Mr.
reel) were prepared to admit the fact, still he should
say, do not proceed to such a condemnation without
having ready some practical measure which would ob-
tain the confidence of the people. Was it for the Noble
Lord to overturn the confidence of the people in the great
part of the representative system, and to propose no re.
asedy for the evils of which be complained. lint he (Mr.
Peel) was not prepared to affirm resolutions which as-
serted that in small boroughs, where the electors were
few, Members were returned by bribery. There was no
evidence before them to sustain that assertion. He
mild not draw say distinction between the purity of a
numerous body of electors and that of a smaller num-
ber. Whether a lame or a small number of electors
were the more easily bribed was a question on which

different opinions might be entertained; but at any rate
it ought not to be asserted without evidence that small
boroughs were all to be botight. He believed the tact
in many cases to be the reverse, for there were some
boroughs where there were few electors, but who had
honestly and fairly fulfilled the trust reposed in them.
—He was nor, therefore, prepared, without proof, to
affirm the resolution. Besides, the Noble Lord was
not prepared to say what was to be done with the
franchise of the small boroughs. Now he must
say, that whenever the House came to a resolution
to forfeit the franchise of the small boroughs, it
ought at the same time to be prepared to dispose of
them. The Hon. Member who seconded the motion
said that be was prepared to admit the principle of
pecuniary compensation. Now this involved questions
of so much importance that he thought the House had
a right to request some more clear exposition of the
practical mode in which the Honourable Member pro-
posed to carry the resolution into effect. By negativing
the resolutions of the Noble Lord, the opportunity would
not be lost of discussing the question of Reform next
Parliament, as this very night it happened a Noble
Lord had given notice that, in the next Session of
Parliament, he should propose to give the elective
franchise to three of the most important towns in
England, namely, Birmingham, Manchester, and
Leeds, so that there was no chance of their escaping
next year a discussion on the question of Reform. The
Noble Lord tested his claim to the support of the
House mainly upon the assent which the House had
given to two great questions. He first said, that, by the
aid of the degraded small boroughs, the principles of
that abominable system of free trade had been affirmed
by that House, and, secondly, that also by their assist-,
truce, contrary to the sense of a great majority of the
country, the question of Roman Catholic Emancipation
had been carried. Now be (Mr. Secretary Peel) appre•
hended that these were not grounds on which many—
looking at the majority with which the last question
had been carried—would be inclined to support
the Honourable Member, however well inclined theyl
might be to support the question of reform singly.
He (Mr. Secretary Peel) objected, then, to these Reso•
lotions. on account of the period of the Session, and the
small attendance of Members, and he considered it to
be hardly treating a subject of this importance with the
consideration it deserved. He objected to them too on
the ground of the injustice of condemning generally
small boroughs on account of their having few electors,
and he trusted that those who represented small boroughs
were not prepared to assert that corruption must exist
in them more than in a populous city or county. Being
prepared when the question should arise, to deliver his
sentiments upon the general question of Parliamentary
Reform wheo the proper period arrived for so doing,
but thinking the present period an unfit one, and not
considering himself justified in making such serious
charges as the Resolutions did, without proof. be should
withhold his support from the Resolution.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said that if compelled to agree to
these resolutions upon the grounds only taken by the
Noble Mover, he should withhold his assent altogether,
as he would rather take that House, with religious
liberty, than have a new one without it. With re
spect to the other ground, he would rather have what
intelligence was now sent to that House than any
which would oppose the principles of free trade. He
(Mr. Hobbouse) would always be at his post as the
champion of reform, whatever might be the motives of
those who brought a motion for it forward. He could
sot forbear calling the attention of the House to the
great change, not to him unforeseen, of tone in the
language of Ministers on this question—(Hear, hear).
He recollected that upon one occasion the Right Hon.
Gentleman who preceded the-Right Hon. Secretary of
State for the Home Department in the seat he now oc-
cupied, said that the question of Parliamentasy,Beform,
instead of being received with something like civility,
u.ed to be considered as utterly insignificant. The
Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department ob-
jected to these Resolutions on account of the late period
of the Session and the small attendance of Members.
Now for his part he thought, considering that the ques-
tion of Parliamentary Reform was in discussion, there
was a very full attendance. He remembered once,
when he had the misfortune to be making a speech on
the subject. that the late Mr. Canning held up his
fingers to show him that there were only twenty-five
Members in the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman
bad also objected to the resolutions, though in a very
modified manner, on the ground that the Noble Mar-
tial had proposed no remedy for the evils he set forth.
Now, the Noble Marquis only requested to have an in-
quiry, and it was not necessary, in his view of the ques-
tion, to propose a remedy. He had.told the House that
he objected to these smith boroughs, as they must necee:
sarily be under objectionable controul. Now, if the reso.
lotions were carried, and an inquiry granted, the task of
the Noble Lord would be easy. for he would only ha ton
to propose that these boroughs be discontinued from
returning Members to Parliament, leaving it for the
House to determine to what particular species of con.
stituents their privileges should be transferred. He had
always remarked that, on questions of this nature, tbsi
Right Hon. Gentleman' opposite (Mr. Peel) bad never
opposed the principle of reform. On the present °cc&
sion he had stated, not his objection to the motion of'
the Noble Marquis, but to its being decided in so thin is
House. He was not quite sure that he himself concurred
in the views of the Noble Marquis respecting small bo-
roughs, because be (Mr. H•) was a mild reformer ; but
still he should be glad to take any thing he could get.
and should therefore support the motion. As long as
Parliament should remain constituted as at present—he
would speak out—and should say, that as long as money
could command a seat in the House (and that it did
had been admitted by a Minister of the Crown, a late
Noble Marquis)—so long as money, by a circuitous
route, led to seats in that House (however much he re•
gretted that fact) be would contend that there ought to
be seats in it notoriously purchasable. He had taken
the liberty to say the same ones before in that House, and
should repeat, that there ought to be placed within the
reach of honest men of enlightened views a mode by
which to enter that House. How were individuals
unconnected with Noble families, who could not com-
mand patronage, and who were unable or unwilling
to encounter the expense or the trouble of a contested
election for a county—how were such persons, how-
ever qualified to serve their colontry they might be, to
get into Parliament if not by purchasing their seats lot
boroughs? Of that latter class had been the late Mr.
Ricardo, who had often told him (Mr. Hobbouse) that
if his return to Parliament depended on his encountering
a contested election, be should be obliged to forego his
desire of a seat in that House, because he felt himself
unequal to such a struggle. How,then,could Mr. Ricardo
and other persons—men who every body wished to see
in Parliament—how were they to enter those walls as
Members, it their money could not be turned into seats
in Parliament? Of Mr. Ricardo be should say (and which
would not be contradicted) that be had invested a sum of
money in Parliament. and that be bad thereby a vested
right to a sett in that Houses which he would have en-

jeyed daring his life had be lived to the age of brew.
km. It being deeirable,therefore,that itch persons asMe.
Ricardo should be in Parliament, bow under the present
system, were they to obtain seats in it otherwise than by
purchase, and that could not be done were the small
boroughs to be disfranchised? With these sentiments
he should support the motion, because it would go one
step is the road of Reform. Still he would prefer Re.
form on a more extended scale. He felt grateful to the
)Noble Lord for bringing forward the question—indeed.
be should be grateful to any man wbo should bring it
forward—applying. as it did, to a subject which even
the Right Hoc. Gentleman opposite had partly ad.
segued merited attention. He was also glad to observe
that that Right Hon. Gentleman, instead of combatting
the principle of the motion, bad met it by a reference'
to the state of the House.
Mr. Secretary PEEL complained of not having been
fairly dealt with by the Honourable Gentleman who
bad just sat down. What he bad meant to convey was
that he did not like that a question of so much im-
portance, on which the mover and seconder, and the
Honourable Member for Wilts only, had expressed
their sentiments, should go to a division without a
discussion. He thought it more respectful to meet it
as he had dor.e than by entering into its details in the
then state of the House. The Hon. Member had
therefore mistaken his meaning when he understood
him to approve of the principle of the motion. Indeed
the Honourable Member had also mistaken the ob-
ject of the motion itself—(A laugh)—as it would go to
destroy those small boroughs in defence of whicb the'
Honourable Gentleman had made one of the ablest
speeches he had ever delivered in that House; for be
bad proved that but for one of those small boroughs we
should, as respected Parliament. have lost the benefit of
the great talents of one of the ablest representatives of
the people that had ever sat in that House, and be
should add, of one of the greatest ornaments of his
time. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded
by requesting that his silence on the merits of the maw
den at the Noble Marquis might not be taken as an in.
dication of his approbation of its principle.
Mr. HOBHOUSR explained.
Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman op.
Cithat the present was not the best time that could be chosen
te discussion of the question of Reform. He congratulated
the House, however, on the new effect of the Catholic Relief Bill,
which had made Radical Reformers of some of the highest Tories
to the country.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD replied. He thought Com.
mitten of Inquiry were of no use whatever; they only perpetuated
mischiefs instead of providing remedies for them. Let this House
(continued the Noble Marquis) cleanse and purify itself, and then
it will be in a It state to redress public grievances.
The House then divided, when there were—
For the motion 4O
Against it ......... ..........

Majority against the undies
EAST ESTFORD.
Mr. H. FANE presented two Petitions from thebor-
stesses and other inhabitants of the borough of East
Rettord, praying that the House should direct a writ to
be issued for the election of two representatives of their
borough to sit in Parliament. The Honourable Member
proceeded to support the prayer of the petitioners, con-
tending that by suspending the franchise of the borough
fee three years (a period of suspension for which, in the
andals of Parliament, there was no precedent) the peti-
Ammer. had suffered most severely. The Honourable
Member moved that the Speaker be directed to issue
,is warrant for two new writs for the election of Mero-
lla's to save in Parliament for the borough of East
•etlord.
Mr. LUMLEY, in seconding the motion, said that
if it were pressed to a division he h nal d vote for it ;
be should support the prayer of the petition. The
borough had not been fairly dealt with ; the severity
which it bad met hitherto was sufficient punishment for
its delinquency.
Mr. TENNYSON reminded the House that the peti-
don just presented had come from the great body of
corrupt electors. It bore the names of many who had
admitted they had received sums .of money for their
votes. For instance, that of Leadbitter and Mr. My,
the returning offi:er of the borough, to whom the
new writs should be issued. There was no precedent
for this treatment of the borough. That of Hindon
was not a case in point. After some other details that
have been repeated over and over again in the many
discussions on this subject, the Honourable Member
asked whether the House could consent to the p•esent
motion after they had solemnly decided to postpone the
consideration of it to nest Session ? As to the majority
obtained by Mr. Peel against the motion for transferring
the franchise to Birmingham, that decision was not es-
pressive of the opinion of the country. He should move
las an amendment—" That the Speaker be directed to
I, suspend the issuing of the warrant for the writs Will
after fourteen days after the beginning of next session."
The amendment was handed to the Speaker, and some private
eonversation took place between the Speaker and Mr. Tennyson.
We. TENNYSON said, baring endentood that his anseadmedt
was irregular, be , wooki meet the original motion with a direct

_ .
septic,.
The SPEAKER said be had not said the amendment was kre-
plat', bat insilicient. inasmuch u no resolution of the House in this
Session could bind Members after the opening of nest Session.
MY. TENNISON said be would again correct his amendment
by moving, " That the issuing of the writs be suspended for this
Session."
On the question being put,
Lord HOWICK said he would support the motion
for the writs. He had voted for transferring the fran-
chise from East Retford to Birmingham, but not with
a view to punish the borough, but for the purpose of
giving the franchise to the opulent and populous town.
He would never, in fact, • vote for the disfranchisement
of any borough, however clearly it may be convicted
of corruption, while the present notorious system of
obtaining seats in the House was practised by nine-
tenths of the Members. For instance, he would ask
Mr. Tennyson himself whether he was returned for his
public services to that House by the independent elec-
tors of Bletcbingley. or by the recommendation of an
individual? And be would ask Mr. Peel whether be

bad been chosen by the independent electors of West-
bury on account of his public principles or through pe.
estuary influence? In fact, money paid for a seat in
that House was a bribe, whether paid to one person or
divided among several.
Sir JOHN BRYDGES said, that having voted for
transferring the elective franchise from East ftstford to
the hundred of Bassetlaw in the last Session of Par-
liament. rather than to the town of Birmingham, no-
thing that had fallen from Honourable Members in
this Session bad induced him to alter his opinion; but
after every consideration be was confirmed in it. He
thought 'shards measure of punishment had been dealt
out to this borough in depriving it of its elective fran-
chise, as thereby many innocent persons suffered for the
climes of the guilty. But, as this House had come to
the resolution already so to act, the next step for con-
sideration was the best means to substitute a fit re.
presentation in lieu of it. He confessed he•did not think
conferring this privilege on the town of Birmingham
would be the best step, and be was doubtful whether it
was *desirous of it. No such desirehad, at.least, been
expressed that be had bawd of out of this House; it
had been alone advocated in it. Its inhabitants felts