Star.
London, England, 1819-03-03 00:00:00

mete delusion. The complaint was univervlthreugh
the country that crime was increasing.. What then
w a , to be deiiia.;-Certainly net to increase the pe-
n.i; ties of the Lew I Were su:h a course pursued they
wo ad not he executed. It would alienate witnesses
and juries from the fulfilment of their duties, and
even it would beiound difficult to fill the judicial
benches with men of integrity, and feeling to admi-
nister such laws. The only questionhe thought, for
the rouse then to consider was, between the Com-
.
mit ee proposed by the Noble LOtd, and the mo-
tion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Sir J.
Mackintosh)-!•in other words, between a remote and
a speedy consideration of the subject. Feeling that
the country on that question deprecated delay, he
should most certainly•give his vote for the motion of
his Hon. and Learned Friend—(continued sheets.)
Mr. LAWSON. spoke fully half `an hour ; bt.t.the
cry for " Que4tion, quezlionr and " Bar, heir r to-
gether with an almost incessant' t of coughing, pre-
vented him from binirheard.
• Sir H ARLES MO ItG A N considered the subject
as of the highest importance, an.' (Nett to be inves-
tigated by the House itself. The HonOurable Mem-
ber was averse to delegating their power to what he
termed "'One of their Family Committees r
Mr. J. SNIITII regretted the rapid and early pro-
gress of crime. 'He instanced the case of a boy of
15 years of age, who was not oily ignorant in the
extreme, but absolutely unacquainted with the na-
ture of crime. The mode proikised •did not meet
with his approbation. If even there were 'half a
dozen of Committees, they might be employed the
whole Session without coming to any satisfactory
conclusion whatever.
Mr. LITTLETON bestowed many compliments
on the Honourable and Learned Mover ; and ob-
served, that if the House seriously considered the
question, they would agree with the Honourable and
Learned Mover,• that the part of the Criminal Code
on which he so forcibly dwelt deserved tit immediate.

and full investigation.
Mr. PROTIIEROE—" If we are to discharge our
.duty faithfully as the Representatives of the People
of England, we are bound to give the Honourable
and Learned Mover our support.
Mr. WILMOT not only congratulated the House
but himself, upon the very excellent speech which
had been that evening delivered by the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman; and said, that unless the
Noble Lord consented to the appointment of adiffe.
rent Committee from that carried last night, the
Hon. Member would vote for the present motion.
Mr. WILBERFORCE, after what the House had
_

heard last night, hoped that the Motion would be
agreed to. 'The lion. Member confessed, that he bad
scarccly eier heard a more able speech than that de-
livered by hir Hon. and Learned Friend. It was
profound in argument, splendid in eloquence, and
admirably corroborated by facts and experience. No-

thing of a substantial or convincing native had been
advanced against the motion. After the powerful
and persuasive arguments which had been produced
in support of the proposition after the extraordinary
facts which had been mentioned—the Hon. Member
was in conscience boded to vete in farces of his Hon.
and Learned Friend. He was against any further
delay. While Gedtlemen reioarmended delay, let
them recollect how many unfortunate fellow•creatures
might become the victims of the law as it now stood.
A change of the system would produce that appee-
!Tension and fear which they all so earnestly wished for.
Let the criminal ever know, that the punishment ef
solitary ci3nfritement, that a lingering solitude, was
in its consequences even worse than death, and then
in amendment might be expected. Let the opera-
tions of conscience have their full-effect on the cn-
,.eninal, and then would be produced the desired dimi.
notion of crime. The Honourable Member then pro-
ceeded to notice some valuable Works upon sub-
ject, referred to the opinions of air Thomas Mire
and Lord Bacon, and spoke highly of the plan of a
Penitentiary House adopted in the Administration of
Mr. Pitt. He was delighted that his Honourable and
Learned Friend had produced nearly what might be
called a state of unanimity. They appeared on this
important subject to be all of one mind; and the Ho-
nourable Member recommended them to follow as
closely as possible the wisdom Of their ancestors,
"those, P sure amendments of our laws and in-
stitutionrsord rendered this nation the wonder and
envy of the world. •
Mr. CANNING declared, that there was no part
of the last Honourabk Member's Speech with which
he more Concurred than in his expressions of praise
on the Honourable and Learned Mover. But with

all the admiration of the Honourable-and Learned'
Gentleman —he hoped he would permit him to be
called his Hon. and Learned Frienil (Sir J. Mackin-
tosh), next to the great ability of .his speech, was the
prudence and wisdom which he o happily evincedin
keeping clear of the shoals and quicksands with which
he was surrounded. His Hon. and Learned Friend
• bad adopted the most commendable precaution in
avoiding any irrelevant' reflections on our Criminal
Code at large. Ile had fixed upon his laudableols-
ject, and by his perseverance and attachment to it,
he had confirmed those whb were doubtful, and
obtained converts to his. cause. They all appeared
agreed As to the necessity of the amendment in view.
With regard to the main question, it might be thought
that a Committee was not necessary. From what
had been said, he was apt to coincide in the same
sectirnent. The Muse was now in possession of all
the grand fundamental principles of the particular
propoition. The suggestion had no novelty to re-
commend it. The general proposition had been dis-
cussed in remote periods of our history, and even in
the remote periods of the ancient world. The adop-
tion of Sir Samuels law of 1810, had not tended to
she diminution of crime. It was rather unfortunate
that it bad produced the contrary effect. The parti-
cular species of crime alluded to had increased, but
perhaps it was not attributable entirely to any defect
of that law. Some Gentlemen pushed their ,
too file when they recommended the abolition ..... our
penal Statutes. If the Criminal Law now .alludte '
were absurd, as had been asserted, there was
a (~.cenusittee of Inquiry ; the House itself was
to come to a decision, without such coreatoor
mirk Honourable Gentleman believed, bowie"
some few Gentlemen might argue,
=" pusisitUlent of death produced the greatest
ttitail, and that di ort, was no effect -
riot mopitaidstration of it. lie wished to

..

I '

a r
-••• • • •

.
cautiously, but not slowly in the inqUiry ; and when
I the Committee of his Noble friend could determine
; on what model the future system should be founded,
. which he apprehended might be lone at ix. distant
, I period, it would then be for tbein to address, the
Crown to issue Commissions to ameetitin by_ practical,
I survey how far our present prisons were coformable
to the plan that might preferred, or were capable
of being made so. This "AS the course he thought
it would be most eligible to pursue. If the present
motion were carried,- he would venture to sey that
the House would ere ldng find it neces4ry to throw
the two Committees. that would then be pursuing
their inquiries into one. By pursuing the investiga-
tion in the manner proofed by his Noble Friend,
he thought they should rrive at the most satisfac-
' tors' result.
Mr. SCARLETT began with a tribute of pmise
to the memory of his departed friend, Sir Samuel Ro-
milly. His loss, upon the discussion of a subjeci like
this, must be felt by every person who knew any
thing of his talents or his principles. His object was
the same as that of his Learned Friend (Sir James
Mackintosh) to repeal thoss laws which remained a
dead letter, and which, if they operated at all, only
operated to the encouragement of crime. When the
,lamented and illustrious man to whom he alluded
first asserted his principles in that House, with re-
spect to the CriminalCode,it might be recollected that
he was met by a warm and fiery opposition. In the
preamble of a Bill, brought in by him ten. years ago
upon this subject, it was-his desire, in the preamble,
to have this principle recognised .by the House, that
excessive punishment did not operate to the preveer
tion to crime. He doubted harever whether the mat-
ter was sufficiently considered by the House, to ena-
blehim to pass this preamble. This event • •
his (Sir Samuel Romilly's) conjecture to be right...—
This Bill passed, but the preamble was negaiived.
He then determined to have the Criminal Code, in
its various branches, considered in separate and de-
tached parts each Session, that, by frequent discus-,
sion, the House as well as the Public, might become
familiar-with the subject, and be awakened by de-
grees to a sense of the evil. One of the last acts of
his public life was a Bill introduced by him during
the last Session, and it was extraordinary that the•
very preamble negatived ten years before, was then
.agreed to. It therefore stood now recorded as the
judgment of the House of Commons,,that excessive
punishment did not operate to the prevention of
crime. The-question at present was to apply this
principle practically. He was glad he had it in his
power to boast of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Can-
lung) being a proselyte to this doctrine, though not
yet quite so far advanced as to meet he wishes of
the House or of the country. The Noble Lord (Cas-
tlereagh) and his Right Hon. niend (Mr. Canning)
seemed to entertain doubts as to the practical resin
of the Committee already aPpeinted. This gave no
ground for entertaining any sanguine hopes from
their exertions. To commence inquiry with an appre-
hension of disappointment, was not the best mode
of conducting it to any beneficial purpose,.
It was perhaps true that the practical consequences
arising from Sir Samuel Romilly's Bill did not ac-
cord with his`expectations, and that the crime of
stealing privately was not much dimihished by it.
Its good effects, R should be recollected, could not
beupward so soon, but though they did not imme-
ately take place, it did not fdlow that the law wee
inoperative. If the initial, of crime was looked t 4
in two different years, it' would appear that the law
did not remain without producing some effect. After
all the information they received upon the subject,
and after the valuable information communicateein

the publication of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Benneii, the
Noble Lord (Castlereagh) carne down not to give in.
formation, but.to propose a Committee for an object"
so general that it could not be compreheAdsd, an yet
to this was to be added the state of the Criminal Law..
The question was not to provide secondary punish-
ments in substitution for that of death ; it was, whe-
ther laws on the Statute Book, which were never car-1
ried into effect, unless by chance, should be repealed
or not. As they stood, these laws produced no ter-
ror at all ; on the contrary, they multiplied the chances
of escape. Their severity was such as teproduce•an
amiable conspiracy/ to acquit, both. in Judge and
Jury. As for the inquiry proposed by the Noble
Lord, he should have entertained a better hope con-'
cerning it, if it had been brought forward by the
Noble Lord with some statement of what he thought
practicable—(Haar, hear!)
Mr. W. COURTENAY was against the present
measure, which he thought not the best calculated
to pioduce good results.
Mr. Alderman WOOD stated it to be ids inmost= to vote
for the motion.

The ATTOIiNEY-GENERA4 in reply to the arguments
of his Honourable and Learned Friends, 312sintained that, in
many cases were sentence of death-welt tube prosounced, the
sentence aught not to be carried into execution.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH briefly Committee he
bad intended to move, if it were to read the list, would be found
to contain as fair r selettiowfrom jests of the Monet as could
he made—(Cries of'" Bead, read"). He then read the felkiw-
bg AMP :
Mr. Bathurst, Mr. Barlett, the 4tersey-General, Mr.
berferce, Lard Nugent, the SOlidterarkinersi, Mr. Aberird*t.
the Hoe. G. Vernon, Mr. Alderman Wood, Lord Abbot?, Dr
phnumore, mi. Finlay, bin Brougham, Mr. Bennett, Mr.'.
Buxton, Mr. N. Courtney, Mr.t. Wynn, Mi. bisboaakl, Mr.
Lyttleton, Mr. Howarth.
.The House divided, when the numbers were...-
For the Original MOtion 147
For the Previous Question
Majority Sr Sr J. Mackintosh's Motion --iv

Mr. LONG WELLESLEY pauNred a Petition from oar-
Main Occupiers of Land in the Ceaaty of Wilts, praying for a
protecting duty avant the importation of Foreign Coru.--Laid
on the table.
Sir A. HOPE 'spired when the question of the Wisdom
Edablislinseet *mild again come before the House?
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that.the second roadiugeteho
Bid was fixed for next Thursday.
Sit A. ROPE then gave notice, that in the Continittettas the
Bill next Riley, he *Meld propose that the Six Royal Erasable.
be continued on.sisat Establishiseet.
Oaths melon at Lord OASTLEE.EACiIi, the •
s caned

THE E

I *EDNESDAY, MARCH 3, 1819.
. Tit! FUNDS.
FMCS OF STOCKS THIS DAT AT ONS o'cr.ccit :
3 per Ct. Red: 731 741 73i 74—Cons. 741.731
Ceini. for Ac. 7511 74 7317-31 per Ct. 85 82i t
4 per Cent. 9111921—Navy 1034 104103} 101-1
India Stock 220 221 220—Bank Lg. Aims. 19/ 1-16
old Antis. 7S}—Exchequer Bills (2d.) 8 12 6 dis.

•
In the House of Commons, last night, a long con-
versation took place on the subject of Coal Duties.
The Inland Counties appear determined to make a
stout resistance to the imposition of any duty at the
pit's-mouth; and who can blame them? According
to Mr.LITTLITON, the Member for Stafford, ls. per
ton, at the pit's-mouth, would add ISs. 6d. per ton
te the price of iron. But does this fact furnish a rea-
son why some parts of the country should pay a tax
on coals, whilst others are exempted? Certainly not!
Repeal the, duty entirely, and all will be on a foot.
log, the same 'as if a duty were imposed upon all
As to the injustice of toxin one part of the commu_
airy, while others enjoy the article duty free, there
can be but one opinion.—In answer to a question by
Mr. GLADSTONE, Mr. MANNINO (a Bank Director),
stated, that so far from diminishing their discounts,
they were at this time full £200,000 higher than they
were in December, and that the Bank meant to pur-
sue the same system during the sitting of the Secret
Committee.. When their report shall be made, the
Bank, of course, must bow to them.. To the causes
which we stated yesterday, for the present want of
money in the City, must be added, the general ex-
pectation that the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQURN
must take up part of the present Boating debt by a
loan, or :by funding Exchequer Bills, which is thej
same thing, to the amount of £25,001,000, and for
which loan the monied men are preparing.
Sir Jestsi M4tcalittoan brought forward his =-
I don for a Committee toenquire into, and investigate,
such parts of our Penal Code is relate to cipital
punishments. Lord CASTLEREAGH objected to the
motion, but Ministers were left in a minority of 19.
The number for the original motion being 147, and
against it 128.

The Catholic Question is about to be again brought
before the House, and on pretty strong grounds,
many of the Protestants having strongly recommend-
ed that the disabilities of the Catholics should be re-
moved.

Till Paris Papers of Sunday arrived this forenoon.
The Chamber of Deputies had a public meeting on
Saturday, ia which the Bill for the regulation of the

szuusufactese%and sale of Gunpowder underwent a
brief tfiseussion, and was ultimately passed Sy a ma.
jOrity of 190 to 9. The House then resolved itself
into a Secret Committee, when M. Lastrrx presen.
ted his expected proposition on the Election Law, in
these terms :—.44 I propose that the Chamber of De-
puties vote an Address to the Kum, stating, that it
regards the maintenance of the Law of Elections,
such as it is, and its punctual execution, as the first
guarantees of public peace, and the most solid basis
of a CcmstitutionalMonarchy, and therefore supolicates
his Ma.nrarre to preserve that law inviolate." The
Chamber resolved that they should hear the deve-
lopement of this proposition in a Secret Committee
on Wednesday. The shock which public cre4it has
received from the indiscreet agitation of this ques-
tion, is strongly manifested in the continued decline
of the Puna'. On Saturday they sunk, at one time,
as low as 66 f. and though they rallied again, left off
at no higher than 67 f.

A Hamburgh Mail arrived this morning. The
letters from Ilanover state, that the departure of the
Duke of CLARENCE for England is said not to be
so near as was expected. His Royal Highness is now
entirely recovered from a slight indisposition.
The exportation of paintir.gs, statues, antiques, col-
lections of coins and prints, rare manuscripts, first
ecntions, and in general all articles -of literature or
the arts, yrhich tend to the ornaments of a State, is
rohibited throughout the wkole Austrian Empire,
upon pain of confiscation, or a ae of double the value
with the exception of the works of living Artists.

:r.h4
We 'have received Halifax Papers to the 2d of
February, bat they contain, no news of importance.
SHOW UN HALIFAX JOHINAL OF THZ IS?. 1
• His Majesty's ship Forth, Captain Sir John Louis,
will sail the latter end of this month for Her.
onda,,from thence she will proceed to New York is
eeenive the Hoseatrable Mt. &cox on board, and
ger.atty him to England. Sailed the Government brig
bum. Lieutenant Stewart„ for New York :
Lieuts. Gregory and }rope. Also sailed
i 1 a liP ill:
IMP f s ship Cyrene, Capt. Tozer, for Bermuda.
...•••..........,m.,
30@aday a Meeting was held
imn, ' Gamma ;-

tho_qty

Fly ,_.._ . on tbr mem of /Am pAgukkgAdXtb, =made ' itr, a 7 a Meeting was held at the City of loon.
. thTnit.ete: defaulters
oe die Diner alert Friday were caned rrew.leet.,_ don AVM& Lord Gamma in the Chair. to take
rim dairs toed for 'dwelt Sttliedimee. ' ... Mg. Cialideration the distress at present prevailing
on of our as.. LAmorroN plessated tow Pssnials noeitbasoosior anis" the inhabitants of the &illy Islands. The
[kat to Datliostai : one wine the equothredes 91 the Cad autY• nid Meeting was numerous and highly respectable. Cer.
no need the ether Prifihd rot a revision 4 the genii ZaTra1"444:4311 min resolutions were adoFtecl, nCommittee formed,
was fully gesirtsb.ll"-
auXTON preowned a Padden frommeldsPrits and subscriptions entered into for the sufferers. '
2,4•0117. Yoshihisa prayhts far *AM** of the Pepsi Idiadwi4aiti et ~_ .01104 Mum Left. idaacs_s.—,we him had no ~
hoverer the tab ira _ t.•- . . • WIPIIIII *e , what Ike Wheat was left over till this
6 that, Miouase se s Ct.massia brews ipso ec I 0 a Nialegi, . abotemi *es eispew4S of at this day's rites, but there was no /
little fhisitsh i,
dot the Waist =el* -11111viggile1
'realest ' Poorsmworta. Nana I.—.lThr!l Isesti . * ' stiewisstood aos-aomp,kt
ct Otillal the Thaw, ?s4l". fbr the, 4, *l. , liii4 pill jet liolimet,Sesi4a;
proceed .the Isteirk. ( i. goriil
. .-. . .
t;-1) tqatoalt, _,
~ 1 rAnt, ,•• Pr*, 4 '' •- * :.+ . . • • • . . .. .• - •
. .• °