The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-01-04 00:00:00

protest, the identical words adopted by the Councillor for
Everton Ward are used. In that very protest it says, that
" the books of the Old and New Testament must be taught
clearly and plainly." On a former occasion I was asked what
the term Protestant was? I was told that it was a proof of
an ignorant and vulgar mind to confound the name of Pro-
testant, and apply it to the Church of England alone. When
I was a dissenter, 30 years since, I gloried in the name of
Protestant. The gentleman who said I made use of the term
Protestant church ignorantly, must have received his infor-
mation from the same individual who said I would not sign
my name on the visiters' book, kept at the schools. (Cries
of "order.")
The MAYOR.—I hope you will confine yourself to the sub-
ject.

Mr. IsAAc Hot.stEs continued.—l certainly do object to
these schools. Before we can sit in this council, we make a
declaration that we will do nothing against the Church of
England (" bah !") ; and I certainly do conceive that when
we allow a certain catechism, for objecting to which we de-
rive our name of Protestants, to be taught in those schools,
we are not fulfilling that declaration; and I shall not rest,
if that catechism is to be taught, till we exclude all cate-
chisms whatever, if we are not to have the Church of Eng-
land catechism taught. I know that the Councillor fur Lime-
street Ward (Mr. Blackburn) has the same opinions as my-
self on this point. What does be say in a pamphlet pub-
lished by him 2—" I know that by the use of the church
catechism, and similar formularies, they will introduce the
subtility, the very poison of the council of Trent, and inocu-
late the Protestant population with the virus of a Popish
theology." (Much laughter.) These sentiments against
Popery do him honour, and ought to be placed over the
mantlepiece of the town council-room in letters of gold.
(Continued laughter.) They do not, to-be sure, accord well
with the sentiments of the same gentleman recently uttered;
but perhaps he thinks with the poet who says—
" Here smaller draughts intoxicate the brain,
But drinking largely sobers us again."
(Loud cries of " ptsh !" "oh !" "ah !'' " pshaw !") As to
the member for Lime-street Ward, he does not like the
church catechism because it has a semblance of Popery. He
will apply at once to Popery, and get a large draught.
(Great confusion. and loud cries of "order.") I feel sorry
to trouble you much longer with it. (Renewed confusion,
and cries of "so do we," I have no doubt of it; but lam
fixed in the Council Chamber, and so long as I remain, I
will defend the Church of England against all its enemies.
Mr. Alderman EVA NS.-1 conceive that if this motion or
this instruction cannot be cleared up, we have no other re-
medy than that a negative should be put to it. The exordi-
um, in the introduction which Mr. Hodgson made to his
speech, gave the word of promise to our ear that he would
not so soon have broken it to our hope;—(a laugh)—but it
is not unusual with him that one-half of his speech is for,- and
the other against, what is proposed. But I shall move that
the motion be not received.
Mr. Councillor Bo I.TON.—Mr. Mayor, I think, that as 151 r.
Hodgson has not made his disavowal—
The MAYOR.—He has not refused.
Mr. Councillor BOLTON continued.—lf he does not, before
this goes to the vote, make a perfect declaration implying nu
censure on the religious instruction as now taught, I shall
vote against his amendment. And I cannot help remarking.
that it comes with peculiar ill grace from these two gentle-
men, to be so very solicitous in their advocacy of the church.
These two gentlemen have been for some 30 years of their
lives, one a quake[, and the other an anabaptist, and the opin-
iot.s they now represent, show the greatest bigotry and intol-
erance to all dissent from the church establishment. I have
no hesitation in saying, that the publications of the Jameses
and tie Gathercoles are fire brands calculated to selman
against man, instead of promulgating good will amongst
men. The amendment conveys an implied censure, and un-
less I hear a satisfactory declaration that no censure is in-
tended, and that nothing is to be objected to, if the present
system be continued, I shall vote against it.
Mr. Aldeaman Tuesi E objected to the term " anabaptist ;"
it was a term of reproach.
Mr. Councillor Bot.TON.—I said " baptist."
The M A YOR.—Weuld it not be more desirable to meet the
proposition with a counter resolution, rather than by a direct
negative, because the proposition will be recorded on our
books, and it is so obviously priper. I merely make that
observation to Mr. Evans.
Mr. Councillor HIGGINS suggested that the words "as
heretofore" should be added to the motion of Mr. Hodgson,
making it read, "a free, open, and unrestricted course of
education, as heretofore."
Mr. Councillor DAVID HODGSON.—That is not my resolu-
tion.

Mr. Councillor IIfGOINS would then move that addition
as an amendment.
Mr. Councillor MORECROFT seconded the amendment.
Mr. Alderman EARLE then rose. He said—l will be very
brief, sir. I dare say we should be all better if we could
curb one's temper, and 1 dare say Mr. Hodgson will give
me credit for that; but I think I may be excused for some
of the warmth when I read daily in the newspapers the most
malignant language against those who have approved of this
system—language which I certainly cannot think is in ac-
cordance with the precepts of the Bible. And it is on
that account-1 aui identified with the school commit-
mittee that I certainly do feel perhaps full as much as
Mr. Hodgson could feel on the subject. I think before
he brought forward any resolution he ought to have gone
into the schools, and have seen the way in which the chil-
dren are educated there—the Protestant children ; I have
nothing to do with the Catholics, and wont answer for them;
but there are no Protestant children there that don't exhibit
a most extraordinary knowledge of the scripture. I should
not wonder if some of those children puzzled him in theology
(laughter); and when I aunt any advice on these matters I
shall look for a gentleman that has been consistent through
life; I shall look for one that supports those principles that
he suppOrted in his youth, when his mind was in full power,
' laughter) and tint when one was descending into the grave.
Much laughter.) 1 shall take my opinions.from those gen-
tlemen, and not answer any theoretical question he puts to
me. (Loud laughter.)
Mr. Councillor Cooeen.—l consider I should not. be doing
my duty if I suffered the present opportunity to pass by with-
out delivering my protest against the present eystem of edu- ;
cation—a system which is dividing the town into opposing
parties: and until these schools are Old, we Shall have no
peace in the council or out of it; and I must say this, the
sooner these schools are disposed of, and the sooner the suns
is divided for the education of the different classes of chil-
dren they bring up, the sooner we shall have that peace and
quietness in the town which we wish to see at some future
day. And T -....1.1 01/41, the t,_....”,-,terk whether ice are juin-
si..a, ,a nodding 16 different se ch-RI-, s-witnout we- wave a utear
surplus?
The TOWN-CLERK.-1 can have no hesitation in stating
that, the council are nut authorised to build schools without a
surplus is found. The question is not put whether we have
that surplus.
Mr. Councillor COOPER.--I put the question whether we
have that surplus.
The TOWN•CLERK.—The question is put whether we have
that surplus; I say, undoubtedly we have that surplus.
Mr. Councillor BouroN.—That is not the question.
Mr. Councillor lloonsoN now rose in reply.—He said,
I have not the least wish to say another word; I shall nut
say many. But "evil be to him who evil thinks." (A.
laugh.) I have given you words that I believe are not capa-
ble of misconstruction, and I really cannot think that I aui
called on at all to accommodate diseased and sensitive winds.
(" Ab," " Phoo." and laughter.) I would simply put forth
the declaration, that it Is the part of Christian men to secure
the free use of the Bible, the promulgated word of God, in
every instruction we proceed to give. Anti can you, sir,— I
as you seriously to think, if a more severe censure can be
passed on the gentlemen than to call fur the explanation ?—it
shows that their minds are in such a diseased state that they
are afraid the resolution brings .on them condemnation.
With that I leave it. I do not think the expression, "to
thrust the Bible Gown their throats," is a proper one. I
conceive it to be irreverently said. We ought to see the
Bible tought; we should offer it to the children, and not allow
parts of the Bible to be excluded, and, we should not exclude
Christians from going into the schools at ull times, or at
anv time.
Mr. Alderman SHIM. (interrupting).-1 beg to rise to
order. I say you are not in order. The privilege you are
entitled to is a privilege of reply. I appeal to you that this
is not to reply. You know what the consequences are if any
gentleman introduces new matter—if he takes advantage of
his privilege to put in other words. I therefore say, Mi.
Hodgson is out of order. (Cries of " Chair, chair 1")
Mr. Councillor D. HoocsoN.—lf you make a speech, sir,
you are out of order.
Mr. Alderman SHIEL.—I am not saving a single observa-
tion but on a point of order; but while-[ speak on a point of
order. lam a privileged person. I say if Mr. Hodgson is
permitted to introEuce new matter, it is violating his privi-
lege.
Mr. Councillor D. Hooesoa.—l believe I was perfectly in
order.
The Ala YOR.—I hare no hesitation in saving, that I think
Mr. Hodgson was certainly exceeding the privilege of reply
by the remarks he was making; but I was in hopes that he
would very shortly have concluded. But 1 must say, I hope
Mr. Hodgson will confine himself to the observations that
have been made.
Mr. Councillor D. Honnsors.—lt is before the public.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.-1 hope you will never indulge in
such hopes again Mr. Mayor.—(A laugh.)
Mr. Councillor D. HoensoN.—Whist the late member 1
believe for Abercrombie Ward said—(Mr. Alderman Earle—
" The Ex-member"—laughter)—he made au allusion to a
personal change I have made. I have to thank God that I
have Made it.—( Hear.) And, I wish, that gentlemen, in-
stead of desiring to preseve a consistency
sitevne n
cyio doubtrierror,alnclanhy havliingo.
have taken a part in
found themselves unhappy', a
the system of education do—(Great
uproar, in the midst of whicn,)
Mr. Alderman Ea 'mu, Mr. Councillor HARVEY, Mr.
Councillor BOLTON, Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN, and Mr.
Councillor BATIIBONE all jumped up at once, and with great
vehemence all spoke together, amidst great confusion and
loud laughter. .
Mr. Alderman EAFI.I.E.-1 deny it.
Mr. Councillor HARVEY.—Mr. Mayor, 1 protest against
any, such language as this.
Mr. Councillor BsaceeuaN.-1 repel it with indignation.
(Great laughter.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—So do I, sir. (lieuewed laughter
and confusion.) Did any thing that I said warrant it ?
Mr. Councillor IZATHBONE.--1 never said anything with
greater pleasure than this, that I do think the language of
Mr. Hodgson in daring to(atackreytohfe,jouhdlgnhiuesnht.,seaTt
sDhlruAnskPli into (sn's ile n ce.) 'The the Al-
inni isgtha tnyt,l
si.s
The MA YOR.then proceeded to put the question.
The vote was then taken on the amendment of Mr. Higgins.
For the amendment there appeared 37; against it IG.
The autsug, was as follows:
For the amendment,—Councillors J. Holmes, Thornhill,
Preston, Mellor, H. Holmes, Bolton, Filcher, Walmsley,
Bright, Ilathbone, Lassell, Harvey, Brocklebank, Higgins,
Blackburn, Morecroft, Mason, ;Jordan, Platt, Duncan,
Currie; and Aldermen Sheil, Booth, florntiv, liuskell,
Leathom, Holt, Jones, Bents, Earle, Moon, Evans, Barclay,
Bulley, Ilelt, Harvey, and the Mayor.
Against it,—Councillors Hodgson, Houghton, I . Holmes,
Shand, Case, Wright, Sands, Bibby, C. Lawrence, Cooper,
Wood, Gladstone, Sraith,G. H. Lawrence, Leigh, and Alder-
man Frerne.

WAREHOUSES FOR SALTPETRE.
The resolution of the Finance Committee, respecting ware-
houses for saltpetre and nitrate of soda, which had been
postponed, was again taken into consideration; but after a
short conversation, an _agreement was come to that the reso-
lution should not be confirmed.

It was urged that there was no necessity for the measure,
as the intended warehouses at the King's Dock might some
of them be appropriated for the purpose.
rr. JAMES'S cEstETEnY.
The•ToWN-CLERK then read the following report:—
Report of the Town-clerk upon the reference of the coun-
cil, o❑ the Gilt of June, 1838, instructing him to inquire into
the circumstances relating to a sum of £7,100 paid out of the
corporation funds in the trustees of St. James's Cemetery on
the Ist of June, 1835, and to report to the council whether
the conditions on which that sum was so paid have been
complied with by the trustees; and whether the management
of the trust has been conducted according to the provisions
of the act relating thereto; and to suggest if any and what
measures ought to be adopted for the security of the said
funds.

REPORT.
The act of 7 Gen. 4, c. 52, (18 ) for providing an addi-
tional cemetery in the parish of Liverpool, declares that the
then council had agreed to make a free grbnt of the ground
now called St. James's Cemetery. That act vests this pro-
perty in the mayor and bailiffs, (whose places are now sup-
plied by members of the council,) the rectors, and ten gen-
•tlemen, as trustees.
Power is thereby given to the surviving or remaining trus-
tees to fill up vacancies in the ten; and whenever, from want
of new appointment, that number is reduced to seven, the
council have the power to make up the number to ten, ex-
clusive of the official trustees.