Star.
London, England, 1817-02-08 00:00:00

PETITION PRAM ?Hi LIVERY or Llsoox.

Mr. CALVERT said, he rose to move tor It•aae to
present a Petition Irons the -Lord Mayor and Livery
of London. It stated the severe distress of the ma-
nrifircturing and trading interests, and which it did
not ascribe to the transition from war to peace, but
to the enormous amount of the National Debt, the,
profusion of Sinecure Places and Pensions, and an
immense Military Establishment. They allude to
the corrupt state of the Represetaation, and pray for-
a Reform-according to the Constitution as it at pre-
sent exists. He trusted this Petit;un would be re-
ceived and read. How t happened to come into his
hands he could not tell; but having received it, he,
deemed it Iris duty to offer it to the House.
Alderman ATKINS said he could relieve the
Honourable Member from all doubt as to how the
Petition came into his possession, by, stating that it
was Is.cattse himself and his broth./ Representatives
w.:re no: thought worthy of, presenting it. For him-
self, he W,.uld nut be responsible for its contents,
without due consideration, and he was called on to
pledge himself to support the prayer of it, whether
he consideied it to be sight or wrong. This "be re-
fused to do ; thouh when the great question of Re-
torm came to be discuased, he should meet the con-
' sideration of it with his best seal and most honest
exertions. The Common Hall where this Petition
was resaved on, certainly contained many most re-
spectable persona at the time ; bat it was absurd to
suppose they agreed on the question of Reform, as
two out of five were for annual, and the other three-
fifths for triennial Parliaments. He had stated thus
much.to chew why the Petition came info the hands
of the Honourable Mensbcr for Southwark.
Sir W. CURTIS sail, he would have nothing to
Jo with the Petition ; anJ so far Icons supputting its
prayer, he would give his decided opinion that the
Constitution is as it otight to be, and that those who
meddled with it would not be able to mend it. He
would therefore make use of an old bqt good adahe
Let well alone." He had no objection to the
,Petition being presented by the Honourable Gentle--
man, who was a friend, to radical Reform, and A.
nual Parliaments ; but for his own pair, be Was per-,
fectly satisfied with things as they.are—(rargdyr-)
Here the Honourable Baroaet was called to order
by Mr. CALVERt. He denied that be had ever de-
clared himself in favour of radical Reform or
An-
nual Parliaments. On the contrary, he coosiJesed
such schemes cede as a ild and visional, as am ay%
•
• • ..1.•
•

On the question that the petition do lie on the table,
Mr. PONSONBY observed, that as the worthy
Alde-man opposite h,cl asserted that all the Repre-
sentatives fur the city had been deemed unworthy of
presenting the petition, he deemed it necessary posi-
tively to contradict this. He ought t'i have added,
and as he did not, he (Mr. Ponsnohy) would say it
for him, that there was one Member for the city who
was not considered unworthy or p-rforming this duty,
I but he was unable to do it rneretr from ill health.
Mr. CALVERT maim:linen, that ha had never
bound himself tc sap:, at any petition, right or
wrong; but oae reason why he would support this
was, that lie had himself been one of six persons who
Sent two Members to Parliament, each of whom paid,
set,s.o for their seat ; and this, independent of the
ringiog the bell, and paying at 10, alluded to by the
Noble Lord on a form .1. occasion. was a state cf
thillga not to be endured —(1,oul crier of Hear, hear.)
Mr. LAMB TON said, it wis incumbent ou the
House to investigate the (Ilk:soon of reform, divested
of all the absurd acid detestable theories with which
1 it was enveloped by i.ri Sts el:aiatt,ugues. It was
evident, that according to Cie pfeselit state ot our
Representation, the ro:sle evvie not duly repre-
3ent:d. No doubt collet ile entertained of this fact,:
after the A item,nt which Vie lino to had heard from
a Noble Lord (Cuchiane) on. a recycling evening,.
He was as little dispsti as any man to prevent the
real voice of the people front reaching that House,
ard receiving all due attention, but the, intanatma
aid de's rusting principles of madmen and fanatics
tisould-oe nut wish contempt and ind-gnation. They
founded their= designs on the overthrow of every
thing that was good, great, and yenta:olle is the
crastitry ; but the characters %s ham they aliened and
re.i:ed had Lao great an inteae:t •in the preservation
of their own and the people's rights, to suffer them
,to succeed in their execrable priajecte. The Ji.tur-
betietittitihlthrtbe,eirinitta A eetatt&fttirl-beewmtefu
'in do ans All degree; while they had stietvo -to the
peaple at large how insignificatit were their numbers,
they had suniulated that House to investigate abus, s,
svitli, he hoped, the firm disposition to la wove them.
The petition from London had coPed nit the. House
to effect a Reform in the Representation. Let the
`rouse answer the petitioners by proving to thern that
they were ready to adopt all reasonable suggestions,
influenced by that exalted spirit of liberty winch in-
spired our ancestors, and which has mask us the
. greatest nation in the woad.
Mr. WYNNE did not with to enter at present at
all into arguments on the question at Returns. bus.
as that important ipestion was so apeed:ly to come
on, he did net feel how it could be possible to enter
into the discussion without some previous plan beitz
brought forward. He mettioned this bec•tuse the
tpeculations at present entertained teamed to include
all manner of theories, from annual .Pailiaments
down to the disfrar.chisement ot a single Borough.
Could any Gentleman have heard the declaration
that was unblushingly made the other night, of a
Member haven z obtained a seat in that douse by
open and public corruption, enitloyilig the bellnian
to go about and offer ten Koreas to every voter—
could any man, he said. hear sueh an assertion with-
out disgust?—(Hear, hear, hear:) WAS it a proper
subject for gloryin in, that any man who had thus
corruptly gaited a S-at had an opportunity of turn
ing round upon his con.tituents, whom he had se-
duced by a criminal act f—(seer, hear, hear.) An
Honourable Gentleman had boasted dial dB-k,soi)
had been paid to Lim and others for retuiniog
two Members. This was, by the law of the land, a'
great and substantial offence.; and while he jutted in
regretting the difficulty tit pruv)ng facts ot this kind,
slid he could not allow vial that which was an of-
fence against the statute and common law ought to
be boasted of by many persons iu that House.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. CALVEKT desired to explain. The Hon.
Gentleman had totally misunderstood him. He had
spoken as if he (Mr. Calvert) had been one of the
persons who had been engaged in the Sale ot the Bo-
rough, and had participated in the profits. The fact
was quite the reverse. It was he (Mr. Calvert)
himsdf'who had been sold, before he gave his vote,
and he did not know it. This was the most grie-
vous circumstance that he had to complain of.
Mr. WYNNE admitted that he was entirely under
,a misunderstanding ; althdugh he 'did not conceive
that the Hon. Gentleman had participated in the
money. But the fact ought to be known, and he
would have served his conntry mo•t e:lectually by
assisting in bringing the criminal to justice.
After 'a few words from Mr. 11/IAND, the Petition
was ordered to lie on the table.
Lord W. BENTINCK pinented a petition from
the Land-owners and Inhabitants of Ashby in the
neighbourhood of Nottingham.contairitng &yen him!
dred houies. It Complained of the general distress
occasioned by the intolerable pressure of the pool's
rater, by which the inhabitants were unable to pay
Ithe Assessed Taxes. Read, and ordered to lie on the
Table.

t.

Sir k RANCIS BURDETT then moved for leave
to present another petition, to the sine 'leveret, from
the town el Bradford. On being brveght up and
earl, it was fiiund to contain passages which called
forth the reprehension of
Lord CAS PLEREAGH, who contended that
the House ought net to proceed in arr. teading of it.
Mr. BROUGHAM strongly 0: settained a con.
traty opinion. It was absurd to bel;eve, as' some
pea ems were disposed tq assert, that Petitions were
manufactured here, and sera down to de Provinces.
Mere could be no doubt tb they were the produc.
do e of the persons who e ok the lead at each respec.
eve meeting, end teat) must necessarily bring then%
ready prepated. He declared he would rather see
the most tingremmaticel, common-piece, and unin-
telligiblr Petition from any body of people them-
selves, than any slue filled with the nicest composi.
tion and most logical deductions that Could be pre.
leered and sent down to them. He really believed,
that the. prayrr for universal suffrage had often
been insidiously introduced ir ea these Petitions,
but it would be numerous to assert. that the nume-
rous persons who had sigesel such Petitions, amolltit-
ing sometimes v 30,000, 17,000, :21,e00, and alto-
gether to mere than hell a million, were not sensible
of the great grievances of which they complained,
and that they had not a right te cid on the Houses
ter Refortn. and above all. tor Retrenchment.
Sir F. BURDEVE protested against the mode of
rejecting Ihnitioes that was growing int) use, because
they contained particular words which some Gentle-
men did not approve uf. At such public meetings,
all that could be hop. d for was, that the Perk-toners
should agree to some general principle. •If griev-
ances wac beyond what people ceuld mime, they
had no hope but in appealtug to this H .use. He
`should thiek thetehileutton could be laid hold of,
as edeted merely to insult the iiouse, and with this
ulta Uz trusiteefrthe present oue would not be rejected.
The question was then put, that the Petition be
etweieerf, whick was carried in the.uesetiie vii.hout
. .
. consurrer es: tete rehriec
Lord CAS VI. EseGl I desired the Cwrk to read
that p ise,ge Ropi relate; to
the ordering of the Estitn ties zo he hid before the
House, with a view to the c,..nsieeration of tedac-
tivus. The p tt.s lee lievlog been real, the Nohhe
Lord began by saying, that on caliieg the atteteitie
of the ifouse to that part of the Speech which had
just Seen read, he was sure that Gentlemen would
reel that their ettentien never was c died to en
object in which the vital interest of the whole
country Var/s more deeply involved. It had been
the fuetttue.of very :rimy of the Mt:meets of that
House new preseist, to be called-at deferent p Tiede
to the asitnieskration et pueiic effete; but during
Which the tames of peace had been untortenetely so
centracred, that their slThrts were ceonected. with .
scarcely any thieg but is was polity. Yet they certainty
had the gratilyitig leflectioit that 'the weer-butthees
which they had motel it their ditty to imp 'se, wells
they were 1111teblitY and utievoielahte. lied the iff et
of infusing tech a nable and generous spirit amongst
the people as had cetritil the c untry Free .ly threhelt
• C.)ot4:bt 11111Cli.itildcli and danerers. In
this respect th-y feel the cinisoletiers of thinking, that
they feed perttamed, of all the duties tee), owed to
their country, the one which was most gratifying and
sacred. We Istipht !low. lot the first time, crinsiofrr
ourselves as leaving leeken ti r .thelf the pair's' other
(for the :est year iu a reef despot partook of the
wee espendituit), a at the flohse was now celled 01
to look at the nett. in Which the wer hest left the
titulary. He did hut think that the 'venni difficulty
was altogether wetter that; might have biro exe
pretest atter such a tremendous stiuggli; though the
people might naturally look tlif Nod m eijoy all the
advantages which peace could afford. He wesliee
the House would agte: no gteat country ethed
look to success, unless Its expeoditute Was to Ear re-
duced as to meet its actual 'eyesore. No country
could be considered as founding its system on a wise
footing, unless its expenditure writ.. even reduced
within its income 'Poet the country might not be
enabled to make every possible reductiou in the fir e
year of a peace system, was a circumstance that
ought not to discourage the House, as we did nob
arrive at this *tate of things immediately after the
peace which terminated the contest in the year 1783 ;
and if, from usiavaidahle circumstances, this year
might not be marled with so gratifying a ch 'teeter
as could be wished, yet the heone ought to see cite
probability in a reason able course tit time, of
regaining their pepper Intel. Alt• gether, he was
proud to think that the- tiliciple of seduction might
be expected to'arrive at. its -height at a much carter
Perish' than that whicleit oath e.l Actr the tertniii4•
tion'of the American war. In the u -dewy course
in which the busintis of die teate is sithontted to
Parliament, it had Leen shoal to lay before alts 11" nm
the Estimates ter the Navy in the tust ism-jtke,
which were followed by these of tee Atmy. tied the
other branches of the tea vice. hot it had appeared
to h)tsilhelpfeettiTets
rtvcrettitersd Tot tshheisgsztai tvhe:ttegbe-a.
lion, it would be convenient for them to scceive, by

Inticipation, such a description as would enable them
)n see, at one view, the particular scale of expendi-
ture on which his Majesty's Government were in the
first instance prepared to act. He was aware that
it was the opinion of many Gentlemen, that it would
have been better it Ministers had called Parliament
' together at an earlier period, es that they had atten-
d, d to the intimation of a Noble 1..0rd, given last
Session, respecting .reductions. But he was confident
that on due reflection, the House would not now be
-generally of teat opinion. i It was not is the first I
moments of pence . thairfche House could be compe-
tent to take a full and deliberate view of the whole
of the public eipenditure. He thought it would be
better in the first instance for Milligan to submit to
the House, under their public • reiponsibitity. their
own views of the subject, thin to leave Gentlemen
to run a race with the Servants "of the Crown, with-
out having any explicit exposition before them. He
therefore trusted that the Hailse would be convinced,
when they came to look into the subject, that/Minis-1
ties have not tailed to look with the most scrupulous
anxiety to every point, in order to • propose such re-
ductions
at aright be found worthy of adoption ; and
though they had never relaxed in their considerations
to effect this desirable object, they had been still
more ardent in theirainvestigatioas during the inter-
val since the last Session. Indeed,,he did not on his
conscience believe, that the reductions could have
practicably been made more soon than they have,
without incurring great public inconvenience. Since
the peace of 1815, an immense number of soldiers,
seamen, and marines, had been disbanded, or dis-
charged from the respectis. services, and were com-
pelled to earn an honest livelihood, without...dispa-
raging the glory they had obtained during their Ling
career in the public cause. It was his task to state
on the-present occasion the amount of the different
forces still kept up, but without going into a minute
examination, as the particulars of the various set-
-vices would be opened to Parliament at ano-
tber opportunity, when the House would be ena-
bled to examine all those Estimates and Items,
previously to giving their votes for the Supplies.—
Eut the House must be aware, that it would be ins-
• possible for the services to be carried on, without the
necessary grants of money being consented to. He
• wished, however, particularly to state, that - it was
• not his intention to trait on the House to vote the Es-
timates for the service of the entire year, but only for
a certain number Of.-usooths, during which the in-
qiiries would take piece, which would place the.
. House in such a situation as to enable them to avail
themselves of all- manner of informatics'. As, there-
fore, every Member would have an Opportunity of
• satitying himself, it would be a great sacrifice of their
• time, it he were to enter into a minute statement this
right. But his main object was, only to put the
House in•possession of a general description of each
branch of the service, in comparison with the last
Jeer. He could assure the House that Government
had endeavoured to form these measures with a .strict
reference to the situation of the country, and the
exigencies of the State, and in such a manner as ap.
peered to them a wise combination. The object of
the Committee, he apprehended, was Maio Mime-
mine into the .espenditure of the country then the
income of it, with a view to adispt any-new system
of finance ; otherwise he should have felt himself
incompetent to the task. Parliament naturally felt,
anxious that the public expenditure should undergo
a fair, impartial, and candid examination ; aad ke
could assure the House that there was the most
anxious desire on the part of Minitters to court an
examination into this subject. They did not feel
' themselves pledged, as a point of honour, to object
to any fair view that might be taken of the subject,
different from their owd—as the only thin on
• which they rested their . pride and glory was, to
find oat the means, or see them found out by
ethers, by which the
'pantry could be benefited.—
Much as the nation 'ended for its glory upon' its'
nasal and military. tinders, they (the Ministers
t
. lilt tbat there waifos mut that had stoodl it*
ifttr
. - greater service than white credit of the cbury,
which had so eminent ossisted us throughoutUg
tremendous struggle: These could be no difference
• Opinion as to the general prineple of the necessity of
looking into the expenditure of the country; but
above all, we ought to see that the faith of Parlia-
ment be inviolably preserved—(Lord crier if hear,
hear, hear 1) ; and at such a time it should be proudly
made known, that this hallowed and happy country,
England (for great and happy she unquestionably
• was, notwithstanding her present temporary difficul-
. • tier,), disdained to purchase a moment of ease and
strength, by failing in the good faith to which she
stood honourably and conscientiously pledged.
(Neer.) He should now, without further observation;
. proceed to call the attention of the House to the state
of the army. In the comparison of the Estimates tor
the present year, he should OW the armies in France
and Lodi' aside; as not keing maintained at the,
expense offside country. The land forces et home
and abroad, the Houk would recollect, by their vote
of last year, amounted in rank and file to J 9,000
men, of which 59,000 were serving in Great Britain
and Ireland, and 46,000 ia.Fraace. It was now pro-
posed to make a reduction from the 5%000- d 5000
men. Out of the Estimate for the Colonial branch,
the reduction would be 19,000. making a total of
eighteen thousand men less for the service of this year
'4l . than the last. Now, he felt no hesitation in saying,
that this reduction was resolved upon, under a strong
sense of the difficulties whist oppressed the country.
This he thought it his duty to state, that the reasons
for it, might not be misapprehended. He thought
Ministers were justified in looking at the state of the
Colonies, when contemplating military reductions,
because there wasitneralphiion that the price of their.
defence, accordiatto the peseta establishment, might.
be too dear. but ns to our home defence, be was
' confident that time mad be but one feeling in' the- a
country. It must' be dse universal opinion, that. for ,
this grand object, no price could be too great, and the
only question • was, what *as the best course that
. ' coOld be adoPted, as he was sure that enough had
presented itself to convince Gedtlemen of the neces-
sity of not reducing the forces for home defence to
• too tow a standard. Thus, the corn-pad:on of this
year with the 11,64 'toed as 81 thousand men to
• ninety-nine thousand; the reductions, including three
thousand cavalry. and 13.000 men from our different
establishments Abroad. The vote of last year alto.
gether was fur IMMO nun ; this year it was pro-

posed collectively for 123.000. The Indian yore
would be for seventeen thousand instead of twenty
thousand. On the whole, therefore, he would repeat,
'hat of the troops in Great Britain, Ireland, aqd the
Colonies, the number would be eighty-one thousand
instead of ninety-nine thousand men, and for all the
military service taken together, 1243,000 instead of
150,000. Io the Estimates, there would appear a
sum of £220,000 to be provided for, on account of
the regiments which had not returned from abroad,
but which were on their way home, aid in a course
of reducf ion. He should now merely state, that in
the Estimates the whole of the army vote would be,
£6,538,060 for the land forces ; but the other con-
tingent branches would bring it up to £6,830,000'
which, with the addition of the expenses occasioned',
by the reductions, would make the whole total
a7,050,0(X). The Commissariat in Great Britain
would be it 500,0041 This expenditure would be ad-1
muted as one which ransenecessarily be incurred by the
country, as it was disbursed in the purchase of bread,
meat, and fodder, under partiCular circumstances.
and it was naturally much increased by the enhanced
price of provisions. With respect to the Barrack
Establishinent, it had been so far reduced as from
£178;000 which it lately cost, to require no more
than fromseventy thousand weighty thousand pounds.
'rite total demand for the Commissariat and Bar-
rack Departme.tts might therefore be taken at eight
hundred and eighty thousand pounds for Great Bri-
tain and Ireland. After briefly recapitulating some
of the items in the preceding statement in the course
of which he observed, that the Extraordmaries of the
Army had not undergone any reduction. the Noble
Lord observed, that the total charge for the whole
Army Service was £9,230,000, while the provision
last year was £10,564,000 ; so that the reduction of
the expenses in this service produced a saving of
A01,534,000,—He should now proceed to give the
House a general outline of the Ordnance Estimates :
—The charge for the last year, even after every
deduction then made, had been the sum of
£1,696,000; that for the present year amounted'
only to £1,246,000; so that there would be a dicta.
notion of four hundred and fifty thousand pounds on
that single item. This saving was effected by the
reduction of a whole battalion in the Corps of Sap
pens and Miners. and of about three thousabd artil-
lery. He had already stated. that the reduction in
the general services of the Army amounted to
4111,334,000; if the four hundred and fifty thousand
pounds saved in the Ordnance Department were
joined to it, the total reduction would be £1,784,000.
He thought it necessary to call the attention of the
House to an important feature in the Army Esti-
mates. They amounted, for the present year, to
£6,588,000; but out of these 5e2,551,000 were for
services already performed, and totally unconnected
with those of the year. So that if the House did not
vote one single soldier to guard the British Empire,
the £2,541,000 to which he had alluded, must still
be provided for the Half Pay of Officers, the Retired
List, and Pensions already granted. It was then a
fact, that instead of amounting to £6,538,000, the
real vote would be under four millions sterling.—
When Gentlemen spoke of the large expense of the
Army, be wished them to take that point into consi-
deration. For it ought not to be forgotten, that. lh
the °permit= of saving, his Majesty's bffimisters were
always driven to the necessity of giving half pay.—
All their economical efforts were thus counteracted
to a certain degree. As they reduced the force on
active duty, they threw on the country a proportio-
nate expense of at least one-thirll, if not fully one-
half, what the whole expenditure of the force which
they reduced would have been. had it been left on
the footing of activity.—He should now pass to the
arrangements proposed for the Navy. The House
had voted thirty-three thousand urea last year for
that service. Out of these, twenty-three thousand
were for the actual service of the year, and ten thou-
sand in progress of reduction.—( Wear. hear.)—
Since that time, however, it had been found ad-
visable to reduce the vote to a provision of eighteen
'thousand men instead of twerity.three thousand. It
rfirritild in fact be nineteen thousand men, as it was
Iliot intended to reduce. the. Royal Marines...(ater,
iser).—That was a most useful force. and one,
,which if once broken down, could not easily be form-
ed again. whilst the best seansyn Could always be
collected with the greatest facility...(f/ear, hear).—
The reduction of seamen would of course allow of a
reduction of ships and other naval expenses.. The
charge for the Navy amounted last year to the sum
of £10.114,000, and this year to only 5e6,397,000 ;
so that there was a reduction in that single branch
of no less than £3.717,000. It was also to be con-
sidered, that within that vote, reduced as it was,
considerable sums would be applied to purposes en-
tirely unconnected with the service of the present
year.. Not less than £500,000 would be wanted for
the payment of a Transport Debt previously existing.
:The immense saving in the Navy Estimates would
be produced in part by the following reductions :
Its the Wear and Tear Department, 5t1,356,000.
en Extraordinaries £291,000. and in Transports
5e711,000. And besides all Mt, and beyond the
£3,717,000 now reduced, there was the proepett of
the discontinuance of the £500,000 which he bad
mentioned. The charge for Miscellaneous Services
had been last year £1,900,000 for England, and
,e600.000.f0r Ireland. It would amount this year
only to one million for England, and £500,000 for
Ireland, so that there would •be a saving in that
branch of one million. Ho would now recapitulate
the reductions effected in the various departments of
the public service.
In the Army'
In lie Ordnance
In the Navy •
hi tbs Mhealsaeous &Mee, '

.

A 1,314,000
450,000
4,717,0110
1,000440

. . . •
Gantt Tow ,
.C 6,504000.
On the other baud, the Charges for the pinsent
:MT would be as follows t .
Far the Anal - - . - .C 7,050,090
For Barrack. " - - - enohou
.
Fur hatreoedineries - - 1,100,000
Fee the Ordnance . - - 4140,000
-
Far the Navy - • 0.197,000
Far Mi.ciusneees Services - • 1000.00 u
Total % iISOTS,OOO
in submitting these Estimates to the House, he
thought it would be unfair to attempt to particularist
and. tic those sums which must be provided for this
year, but which might not be reqoired the next. It
would be giving a pledge on the part of Ministers
by which it could not be espected clay Amid bind

themselves. It was as impossible for the Govern
moat, as it would be for a pritiateindivichral, to be
able to regulate. in a positive manner, the expenses
of the next year, so as to say that they would not
exceed a certain estimate. In the next year, other
sources of expenditure might arise • but other deduc-
dons might, no doubt, also be made. Government
would be on the watch, and would avail themselves
of every opportunity of retrenching expenses. Out
of the 818.373.000 proposed for the present year, he
would shew what sums might probably cease to be
wanted for the nest. It was likely that .2220,0(X)
might be saved in the Army Estimates, from; regi-
ments which were now in progress\ al teckirion.
The Estraordinaries might be reduceds£Boo,ooo, or
from 41,300,000, to 21,000.000. In the Ordnance
fifty thousand pounds might be saved in contracts,
and in the Navy Department, the £500,000 which
he had already stated, forming a total of 21,070,000,
so that the Estimates ought to be considered as
amounting to seventeen, rather than eighteen mil-
liens. He had already alluded, whilst speaking on
the Army Estimates, to the charge of £2,551,000
for services performed. l'he same view ought to be
taken of similar items in other services. '1 hose in
the Navy amounted to 41,271,000 exclusive of four
hundred thousand pounds in pensions. lii the Ord-
mince to £229,ooo,forming a grand total of /14,445,000
totally unconnected with the services of the year,
and which most be provided, if not one soldier were
kept. or one ship retained. When the public mind
was led to contemplate the apparently great charges,
for the army and navy, he hoped that a due separa-
tion would be made between those which had grown
out of the war, and those which really arose from
the necessities of the year. If the House looked to.
the Estimates of 1792, as a point of comparison, it
ought to recollect, that the charge tor performed ser-
vices scarcely existed at that time. It the 41,070,000
which would not recur next year, together with the
44,445,000 applied to repay past setvices, were de-
ducted from the present Estimates, their real amount
would not be found to exceed £13,858,000. It would
tike oft much time to enter into a particular
comparison of these estimates with those of 1791—
But it ought not to be forgotten that it WAS after six
years progressive reduction that Mr. Pitt had brought
them down to 45,200,000. They only embraced. at
that time one branch of the United Kingalorn. But
now they included Ireland, and the whole British
Empire. It the House looked to Ireland at that
period (aid haw different was its situation then from
what It was at present !), they would find that its
imposes amounted to one million a year, which rais-
ed the total of the estimates in 1792, to £6,200,000.
They were certainly now £13,858,000, about the
double. But then what had been the growth of the
Sickish Empire, and the extent of -its Colonies?—
' What had been the situation of Europe, the great
weird change that had taken place, and the temper
treated by it in France ? Those were reasons which
bad altered the condition and increased the expenses
of Great Britain. The very measures adopted by
she House also accounted for a large portion of the
imeginented expenditure of the country. The pay of
the Army bad been doubled, and ether allowances
had beets granted to Soldiers and Officers, both at
' home and abroad,. which made the expenditure of
no etiterioe for that of the present time. As
an instance of this, he should etate,-thnt a regiment of
cavalry, consisting of 700 men, would in 1792 have
cost only 228,000, whilst it cost at present 838,000.
410,000 more than at that period. There were now
sixteen thousand men of that arm in the British army.
Prejudices should not be entertained against the sin.
cerity of Ministers in their efforts at economy, because
the estimates of thepresent year amounted to thirteen
millions, and those of 1792 only to six millions.—
They bad already opened one source of reduction to
the House. There was another, the effect of which
would It mote remote, but not less sure. On the
tome
four millions applied to performed services, a gra;
dual diminution could not fail to take place. The
burthen would certainly be borne gratefully by the
country as long as it should exit.—(Hear, hear)
But there would be a reduction in that branch, not
only by the cessation of the lives of individuals who
received pensions, but because Ministers would think
it their duty to wall as many Half-pay Officers into
active service, whenever it would be in their power.
He had inquired into the probable reduction of the
number of individuals in the Army and Navy,
who were now inscribed on the Half-pay List.—
It amounted to one hundred thousand, fitty.siz thou
sand of which belonged to the army. Assuming
forty to be their medium age, it was probable, ac-
cording to the tables of calculation, that one half of
them would have ceased to exist in the next twenty-
three years.—(Hear, bear).—Tee proportion would
therefore be about two thousand men a-year, and
£lOO,OOO. In the present estimates, his Majesty's
Governinent bad used their strongest endeavours,
without endangering the safety of the country, to
frame them is such a manner as to bring the expen-
diture of the comma, -within the wale of its means.—
Atstbe close of the psost arduous struggle in which
any country was ever engaged, Ministers had so con-
ducted the public affairs, that alter the stupendous
exertions of war, and in the first year of peace, they
had had.the satisfaction to remit not less than eighteen
millions sterling of tares to the people. and found
themselves able to square the expenditure of the,
country within its ineaos.—(flear, hear).—His Right
Honourable Friend, the Chaucellor of the Exchequer,
would soon open his part to the House, and give-
them details which might be relied upon, of the
means which the country possessed of meeting its '
expenditure. At the present moment there would
have been a balance in favour of the country, had
there not been a charge for a provision for the Un-
fdided Debt, amounting to about 011t4330,000. But
cuts then an improvement of i,4111-.590,000 might
kioii taken place if there-had -bur been a-deficiency
rellse !avenue of the ConsolidatOt Fund chi: year.—
A.rdutfus as the difficulties of the nation had been ;
accumulating as had been the deficiencies in the
Revenue. yet there would have been an improve-
ment on the general balance.—(Hear,loar, kat).
But what turned the scale and prevented the tide of
prosperity from flowing as he wished into the king-
dom, arose from a measure adopted with respect to
the country with which he was more particularly
conoected i he mesas the consolidation of the Englith
and Irish Exchequers, which imposed an additional
chase on the latter. Having shewn that the Go.
Ternatent bad cadeavoured to bring the public ta-

penditnre wits,in tte means of the eoUntry, he vested
that the House would see that the Estimates had
been cast on a principle of economy and moderati..n,
and had not been pushed beyond the necessity of nit
case. It was not necessary, therefore, to tike gloomy
views of the future. Members. en the contrary,
would he able to hold out to their constituents a not
very distant prospect of progressive reductions. He
would not attempt to disguise that the present year
had inflicted the severest pressure upon all classes.
No individual could be so inattentive as not to feel
that the hand of PitoVIDENCE had been extended to
affect his situation, by withholding the genial in.
fluenoe of the seasons.—(Loud shouts of Hear, hear.)
It oughj perhaps td add to the regret of all, to learn
that they had not been exposed singly to that cala.
ashy, but that it had been lelt more or less (kepiy
by. every state And people on the Continent of Lie
rope. It be were to make a distinction bete am ane
States, it would be in favour of this country, zhe
pressure on which had been less severe, or at least
more supportable, than on any other European ea
tioa. It was also a consolation to reflect, thi: if itt
sufferings hat 7 ;eeat great, the ardour for telieviny
ahem had .. • . been less remarkable throughout sit
classes of tee community. Never had sympathy si
powerfully exerted its influence before. It had not
confined itself within the duties prescribed by the
law. It had exerted itself for the relief of the sof=
firer* with a degree of zeal known only in this
country—(Hear, hear, hear.) He misted that the
:same beneficent spirit would continue to operate, and
he assured the House; that great as the exertions of
the community had been, there was no quarter in
which they had made a deeper impression than on the
highest quarter of all, by whom every thing was dune
to iacrease their effect—(Hear, hear.) He was in
/fact authorised to state to the House that the thus,
trious Individual at the head of the Government, his
Royal Highness the Prince Regent, had declared
that it was his intention to abstain from receivieg
such portion of the funds out of the quarter of the
Civil List appropriated to his personal r sprint.:
and those of his Household, as, with ill: advice
of his Counsellors, it would be deemed he mightab-
stain front receiving without incurring the reproach of
Parliament, or committing the dignity of ti..- Throne.
sum his Royal Highness intended should he ap-
plied to the public service. It would amount to we-
fifeh .of the whole amnsast of his persu •al tevenue,
for t'te rest of the Civil List was as much for public
services, as any of the estimates proposed this night.
The sum appropriated to his Royal Highness's house.
told consisted of re`209,000, the l'rivy Purse to
£0),000, and the Duchy us Cornwall prod(
relo,ooo—re.so,ooo would be about the filth of
personal amount, and that was tee sum which ;.
tended to apply to the 'milk wants. He wished
share the privations of the people, as he had
their exertions and their glnry-e(Hear, hear)
should not at the same time suffer the Civil List
get into debt, and trusted that he should never ep.
be under the necessity of applying to Parliament
its account. His Majesty's official servants were,
desirous Qt contributing as much as it lay in
power to the relief of the State. The sum wl
they wished to give up out of their salaries might
seem very considerable in itself amid the wet!
services of the ' , Ir. Jut it was not so much
attm as Or, pr;:.eiple which ought to be cc-
It might not produce much reiief, but it
be received as the best proof of sensibility
could be given on their part-(Near,-hear, her.,
They intended to relinquish the same proportion
their salaries as would have been paid to the Prp
Tax, had that impose continued to exist. Tt c
duction which it had effected last year from all
public servants, and the OfEeers of the Army
Navy, had amounted to re 900,000. It would
now rise so high, but though not large in itsell
might not be found unworthy of public notice.
s'sould now have no hesitation in stating the .
which he meant to pie sue. It was that wtach
House had always pursued, the appointing of a cl
Committee by ballot. The word ballot sa:med
create great alarm among the Gentlemen opp.
if he were to judge by a sr -eh of an HNIOL
and Learned Member, no: I anguished by its
velty—(Hear, h.ar, and lats.i.,er)—though, pet'
uttered in a little more mod 'rate tone clan
which the late Mr. Sheridan .ised to make on
ballot occasions, and of which it was a col,
faithful echo. (Hear.) He thought that the an,
forms of Parliament should not be thrown neon
all the alterations which had of late years prevad
What was there in a ballot which placed a Me
so much under the observation of those who
any influence—(Leughter).—er were supposed
have any over his vote ? (fond cries of Heir,
If he wished to defend ballo's, he might avail!.
self of the anthcrity of an Hovourahle l3,ronet
posite, if not of the Honourahle and Learned'_
man himself, for he thought he recollected their
daring, that without ballot all elections roust be
equal to produce a just repres trtation of the
A Committee of Enquiry had been appiinted
lot in 1797, and had published a MASS of ttie
voluminous and useful intproiatinn. He was,
aware at first that tht:e was a precedent of a
date, in which the Howse had appointed a '
tee of Inquiry in a difter..nt manner. This
1807. It his object, flowerer, were to nr
Committee which shead possess the con?,
the Hulse and of the eryintry, he would net
that precedent. When an Honourable and L.
Gentleman, Mr. Bitldulph, nate no :rare,
when a Member of the House, proposed a
mittee of Inquiry into all Offices, with a view
reduction of sinecures, it might have been
supposed that the Gentlemen thtn in
haetti!ftil'eta him their support. Litt they
not allow hies to name his own Committee
.Ther took ;the appoiiamert out of his bands,
though, they made him a Member of it.
plated him in complete solitude with tweet
other Gentlemen—(Hear,' hear, and !Jr
The ChanTell.4 cf the Exchequer at the ti
had relieved his friends Irons all trouble,
named the whole Committee. If its formation
had been attended to. it must have htea
likely to prove most partial, as there were c.ale'
nineteen Gentlemen in it. who were in the
habit of voting with Ministers. —( Thar,
larghter.) There was nothing which he shoal
strongly deprecate at the outset of All 114"
Importance as any difference oft opinion be,

tOl IL
I ten ant
ntrk, the
I at lean
ipean na
if ice
elieviop
ghout all
tpathy se
t had not
by the
I the sot=
y in this
that the
orate, and.
:ertione of
touter in
tan on the
was dune
is Was in
the Illus..
Iment, his
declared
rcceiviog
r ter of the
txprlises
Is: Advice
might ab-
iptoAch of
Tturone.
mid he ap-
ant to one-
-1 ?mime,
for public
this night.
!es's house.
Purse to
produced
filth 01 his
!hies heir.-
wished to
had shared
icir) —He
ril List to
sever again
lament on
rs V?Cre A!J
lay in their
iutli which
s might not
ie exteaded
much the
consideree.
it should
ility which
r, Iter.)—
oportion of
he Pr prrty
. Tt e
Ce-
rem all the
Army and
would not
in itself, it
totice. He
tiie coin •
t wt.ich
rof Selec
sa:med
NI ow ifit
,nutirabk
I by its no
, perhaps
clan tare
make on a.
a tolerabl:
t the antic::
wit orn I;
re prvlliitle.
a Memo-
se who h
supposed •
,t avail
l3,ronet r,
reed Gent.
led their
must be 7
f the peoP
ir.ted by b
of the no.
He was
fit of
d a Comic
This VAS
I nomina
:on fidence
116 not ae
and L. are
mire, lu
()bed a C.!
a view
eett nature
pltver
they We
IMitree 31Z:'
S
of it, 1;
twaltf"
be time 0
ible, and
2..
ea
!re 1..'1"i
o the cal.
'tar,
le shou1.1::
~,q.iiry
Y,l !NOVO