Star.
London, England, 1828-03-01 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF OF LORDS, P. 29.

The LORD CIIIAKCILLLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at
five o'clock.
Earl FITZ WILLIA M presented a Petition for the Repeal of
the Test and Corporation Acts from the Independent Congregation
of Leeds.
Tee Marquis of L A NSDOWN presented similar Petitions from
the Protestant Dissenters of Abingdon, Berks ; of the city of Lin-
coln • and from two Congregations in Warminster and its vicinity.
The Earl of YARBOROUGH presented a Petition to the same
effect from the Protestant Dissenters of liarton.upon- Humber, in
the county of Lincoln.
These Petitions were severally ordered to lie upon the table.
Mr. Jonsson presented as Account of the Receipt and Di-bursca
ments of the London Dock Company, from the 30th of Nov-ember
t 826, to the 30th of Nov. 1827 ; also a Report of the progreti of
the Works.
The Merton Poor Bill was read a third time and passed.
Lord TEYNH A M moved the discharge of a notice of modem
for a Committee to inquire into the Condition of the Labourers in
Agriculture, which he bad given for Monday next, and renewed
his motion for Monday, the 24th of March.

OD the 'nodal of the Karl of SHAFTESBURY, a firaillet‘'.
was prdered to be sent to the House of CQUISIOAS, recombine*•
tniodas for Henry Home Drummond, Esq. a Menther of that
House, to attend. their Lordships' Committee on the Game Laws..
The House then adjourned.
HOUSE OP COMMONS.
Certain Papers were brought up from the Office of the London
Dock Company, containing an Account of the Income and &pen-
diture for the last year.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. Jonsson also presented a Report of the Progress of the
Works, which was also ordered to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. Alderman WOOD, leave was given to
bring in a Bill to amend the Vestry Act of St. Mary-la-bonne.
Mr. WYVILI. presented a Petition from the City of York, in
favour of the Ferry-bridge and Wakefield Canal Rill.—Ordered to ,
be laid on the table.
Mr. FA Z A KERLEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill for Light.
bag the City of Lincoln with Gas.
Mr. SYKES presented a Petition, very numerously signed by
Merchants, Traders, and Bankers, of Hut, In favour of the Ferry-
bridge Canal Bill.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. D U NCO M pi esented two Pe r irions from different places
in Yorkshire, against the Ferry bridge Canal.—Ordered to be laid
on the table.

Mr. N. CALVERT brought up the Report of the Committee
on the Ayr and Calder Navigation Bill, which stated that the Stand-
ing Orders bad not been complied with.
blr. STANLEY presented a Petition from the Licensed Vic-
tuallers of Preston against the Retail Brewers' Bill.—Ordered to
be printed.
?slr. 110BHOUSE presented a Petition from blr. Clarke, of
Bognor, in Sussex, complaining of the existing mode of licensing
public-houses. In the case of the Petitioner, the house he dwelt
in had been destroyed. lie built another very spacious house, at
an expense of many thousand pounds; but the Magistrates refused
to give him a license, altbottgh his prayer to obtain one was joined
by all the respectable persons in the neighbourhood. Under seth
circumstances, Mr. Clark. consulted his Sqlicitur, who advised
him to apply to the Court of King's Bench, provided he could
prove malice against the Magistracy. This, every one knew, it
would be difficult to prove, and nothing now remained butan
plitaticm to this House. The Petitioner did not expect the House
to give him special relief; but he prayed the House to inquire into
the many difficulties which were throws in the way of Litensed
Victuallers obtaining justice. from the Magistrates. :

klr. CU RTEIS said he knew little or nothing of the subject
alluded to by the Honourable Member. Chichester was at some
distance hum him. and all be could say was, that the Magistratei
of that part of the country were men of high character and honour.
The SOLICITOR-GENERA L said a criminal information had
been moved for, which the Magistrates had not yet had time to
answer the complaint alleged against them.
Mr. 11011 HOUSE said be alleged nothing against s.lut
Vases; for he knew es olirie that all Magistrates were. honourable
men—( A laugh).
Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that the whole system of iletus
ing public-houses should Be altered and amended. Magistrates bad
too much power in such cases, and he thought, for their own sates,
they should wish for a change. In this case Mr. Clarke had a
license—so far his character could not be questioned; but after ex-
pending a large sum with the knowledge of the Magistrate,, they
arbitrarily roused him a licence. The trade in beer should be as
open as that in any other article, and he trusted the subject would
not escape the attention of the House.
Mr. ESTCOURT could assure the House that the whole of .
the system of licensing public houses had been anxiously inves-
tigated by the Committee ; and he would very shortly he prepared
to introduce a Rill which would meet the views of the House. The
case of the Petitioner, If true, was certainly a very hard one, and
deserved inquiry.
Mr. CUETEIS said, he was neither prepared to admit nor
deny the allegations of the Petition.
The Petition was ordered to be laid on the Table.
Air. FERGUSON presented a Petition from certain Parishes
in Scotland, praying the repeal of the Duty upon Receipts.
Sir R. HILL presented a Petition from the Mobsters of Ellin-
mere, praying for the repeal of the Malt Tax.—Ordered to be
printed.
Mr. CAULFIELD presented several Petitions tram the Ca.
thollcs of the County of Sligo, praying for Emancipation.—Or-
detest to be printed.
Mr. SHIRLEY presented a similar Petition from the County
of Monaghan.—Ordered to be printed.
A Message from the Lords requested permission to examine
Home Drummond, Esq. before the Committee on the Game Laws.
—Leave given.
Mr. MONCK presented a Petition frost the Monsters of Read-
ing against the Malt Tax.—Ordered to be laid on the Table.
Mr. BAN KES, jun. gave notice that on Monday next he should
move for leave that Counsel be heard against the East Retford
Disfranchisement Bill.
Lord W. PAULET presented a Petition from the Maltsters of
South Shields against the Malt Tax.—Ordered to be laid on she.
table. •
Mr. K. DOUGLAS presented a Petition from the Inhabirants
of Dumfries, praying the repeal of the Duty upon Receipts. Also
from the Meitners of the same place against the Malt Tax.—
Ordered to be laid on the table.
LUNATIC ASTLUDI/INICLANIA,
On the motion of Mr. S.RICE that copies of all correspondence
between the Home Office and the Irish Government on the sub-
ject of Lunatic Asylums should be forthwith laid before the
Ordered.
Mr. S. RICE presented a Petition from certain Catholics of a
parish in Limerick, praying for Emancipation. At the same time
be begged to say, and he Was instructed by the Irish Catholics t 6
state, that whatever might be the fate of their questioa-, they fat
proud that the Dissenters had obtained at last a right which was
too long withheld from them. He thought the thirty-siz Irsda
Members who voted in the majority would also vote for Catholic^
Eniancipation ; and he thought that the Dissenters were consider-
ably indebted to the Irish Members fur the support they had gilt. n
their cause the other evening. They would now be able to set v. tos
were their real friends.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. ROBINSON, an Acctiant of the Civil
Expenses and Revenue of the Island of St. John's, Newfoundland;
previous to the year 1847, was ordered.
Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from an individual of the
name of Marshall, praying that the East Retford Disfranchisenieot
Bill should not pass into a law.—Ordered to be laid on the table.
Mr. JEPHSON presented a Petition from certain Catholics of
the county of Cork, pra)iog for Emancipation. The Petitioners
ththeelirrrilArghetsthartenan, tehaerlDy
period-(Hear!)issenters of Eng-
lawnedre,
likelywere
eemely ha
tMr. GRATTAN presented similar Petitions from parparishes in
the county of Dublin.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. LUMLEY presented a Petition front the Illaksters of
royhttaihant
Worksop, praying the Repeal of the Malt Tax,--Ordered to be
laid on the table.
On the motion of Mr. W. PELL, the House, at its rising, was
ordered to adjourn to Monday next.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM presented two Petitions from the Dis-
senters of Carlisle, praying the Repeal of the Test and Corpora-
tion Acts.
The Committees of Supply and Ways and Means were deferred
to Monday next. •
DEBATE...-IMPRoVEMENT OP (MIA LAW.
Mr. BROUGHAM moved the Order lot in't Day for
the House resuming the, debate on the Stare of the
Laws. He hoped is deiuglo the House would allow

face l~l~ls•
lien to say a few words, which mipt
cession before the House. If the inquiry were-divided
into four principal brads. after his Hon. and Learned
Friend had applied himself to the whole subject, he
thought it his duty only to state thus much, that the
course be proposed would simplify as well as shorten

the discussion.
The motion of Mr. Hasegawa beteg pukka, the Chair,
Toe SOLICITIA-GERERAL said,'lt now became
his duty to address the House, and he entered upon the
task with some degree of difficulty. His Honourable
and Learned Friend had entered upon the whole of
the Municipal Law, and without entering into detail,
he should avoid any further preface. He would first
state those portions of his address in which he (the
Solicitor-General) differed with him; and where he
agreed with him he trusted his object would meet
with the desired success. It was right that he should
state, there would be no objection to grant a Com-
mission for inquiring into the progress of a cause
in Westminster Hall to its completion, nor any objec-
tion to inquiring into the nature of real property, or the
mode of holding and disposing of it. Those two Com-
missions stupid be composed of different persons, in
order to give completion* to the object which 1U bad
alike ethnic.- The subject was as difficult as it was
comprehensive, and therefore it would become neces-
sary to devolve different duties upon the different Com-
mission'''. 'His Learned Friend, though he said here!
specteiLthe law, did not speak of it as though be really.
felt what he said. In the first place, he submitted that
he did not take a fair estimate of the law,when he merely
talked of its singularities, with all that degree of force
andeillety which were so evidently at his command.
He talked of the present state of the law as if it had
existed as it now was since the time of Alfred; but it
should not be forgotten that our institutions must have
necessarily changed with time, and that the sarcasm
applied to them by his Hon. and Learned -Friend had
no real foundation, at least to the extent he had stated.
His Learned Friend had treated those laws which . re-
tained in part the original form in which they were in-
stituted in the times of)our earliest legislators, as if they
were only applicable to that period. It was true That.
they had been framed in consonnance with those days
of greater simplicity, or of greater ignorance, if they
would, but there had been engrafted upon them such
alterations front time to time. as the wants and wager"-
cies of an advancing state of society pointed out. His'
Learned Friend had stated, that it was not his intention
to make any observation upon the law of-real property,
but to that intention he certainly did not adhere, be-
cause be went largely into the doctrine of fine and re-
covery, treating those subjects with great humour, with
infinite wit, end certainly with
,as little mercy as he had
showed towards the form of the writ. He should not
follow his Learned Friend throughout his course ; all
he should say was, that whatever was done with the
forms of fines and recoveries, he did hope, for the sake
of the security of property in this country, That their
principles would not be touched. If it was only intended
that the inquiry of the Commissioners should be di-
rected to the getting rid of unnecessary expense, he bad
no objection ; but it was a wholesome ductrine of
law, that real property sh9uld be guarded against
the acts of individuals, which went to the injury
of those who were to succeed them. It was per-
haps easy to rid'cule the machinery of these laws,
but what they tended vs work was this that until
the son was of age nothing should be done with an
estate by the father, and that after that period, he
should do nothing with it withoUt the father's consent.
This u as a wholesoMe check upon the passions whets,
they were most likely to have the most influence in
leading young men to destroy their property, and an
eq.ial safeguard against the decay of mind which,
u trail), attended age. His Learned Friend had expressed
an opinion that it would be desirable to have copyhold
tenure abolished, and that the laws under which real
Vropet ty descended should be made the same in all parts
of the country. It might, at first, seem absurd that
these should be one law of descent in one part of the
same country, and a different one in another part. Yet
they all knew that in some places property descended
to the eldest son, in others to the youngest, and in
some, though very few in England, it was distributed
equally. to the children. . Now, if these customs bad
existed for a great length, of time, and the parties af-
fected by them were satiifiLll with. or even, perhaps:,
attached to the tespective systems, he did not kola
what evil there was requiring the remedy of fresh legis-
lation.. If they referred the matter to abstract reason-
ing, he could not see why it was not just as reasonable
that the youngest son should inherit the property Of the
parent as well as the eldest ; and where the parent had
the power of equalizing the distribution of his property
amongst his children by will, he saw no ground for the
interference of Parliament. His Learned Friend had
refrained from touching upon the subject of the Chan-
cery institutions; and, as he thOught, very wisely; it
would.be therefore unnecessary for hitt' to Introduce
that part pf the jurisdiction of the country. His
Learned Friend then turned to the- Courts of Civil
Law, where he agreed there might be many just and
beneficial alterations pioposed, but he doubted whether
they would come ;moody from such a Commission as
this, and whether their consideration would not tend.to
retard and injure the accomplishment of other objects,
to effect which it would be "with better qualified:
His Learned Faced, next objected tP • she WiloPeF• of
constituting the Judges-of these Courtsc.iut,notwitb-
standing the opinion so expreesed, he-would venture to
say. that in the selection of the persons so constituted.
there had been no case in which the general. tropes. of
the profession hasi not concurred. in the perfect pro-
priety of the choice made; and that none but consider-
ations of the public service, without reference to par:
ties or opinioes, had infiumwed such apPisintmenta
There was an example in the last appointment to one
of the Courts, the Consistory Court, which proved the
truth of what he had laid down, and clearly showed
that those appointments were made,without reference
to politics,. and always concurred with the voice of
those most conversant- with the merits which entitled
individuals W . dip distinction. With regard to the
Court'of Delegatss,which was the Court of Appel from
the Civil Courts, -he did nqt mean to say that it was
perfect in its mite constitution; but be would say,
that inasmuch as the Civil Law was always held:sub-'
servient to the Conuneu i.aw, it, was well, to have
in that Court some of the Judges tingvetnaOt with, the
practice of Common Law. If it. was considered.
desirable that the constitution of the Court of Dele-
gate% was matter upon which the Commissioters
should receive iofermNiep, hp had .go sots bs •
9 JPotio.4..
His Learned Friend next took it,. sudden flight to
India, where he touched upon the introduction of the
Trial by Jury. Now, it was far from his desire to do
any thing which might
_retard so valuable aq improve.'
ment upon any system where its application was prac-
ticable. But, as he was wholly unacquainted.with.the
subject, he should leave it. to those more conversant
with the country to which be -referred, from whom the
House would, doubtless ioarn the real merits of that part

of the case. He would,
mentioned by his Learned Friend,wetnn unfottunate,
however, observe, that the case
fitoitsi of the :laded
one for his purpose of showing the
to receive she instigation of the Triathi
Jusyr Accord-
ing to his statement, it was only, by the, diseretion and
firmness of one younß,l3rahnsin, that the °dies eleven
were brought round from their olistinao determination
to do wrong. ,Then, his Learned fyiettrkseil.,let:
entthem
have an improvement in the mode,of giving
in the Appeal cases in the Privy Council. , 4le ed'oot
'mein so say that more ttardition could act be given to
the proceedings of that. ceutt,,,hpt be thought his,
Learned Friend had applied his ;ensure somewhat,
too freely to the manner in whichlts judges• were
constituted. He ought to bear in mind that they
always had one of the regular Judges of one of
the Courts of Chancery present at- their sittings.
The Master of the Rolls always attended, and he
believed the Court world not be considered as pro-
perly formed without him. It should* remembered,
too, that statements of the cases were, in the possession
of the Judges before hand, and that in selecting them it
was usual to summon such Members of the Privy
Council as had exercised judicial funttious in the colo-
nies from whence the particular oases to be heard pro-
ceeded.; so that, as regarded the law of the case as well
as the knowledge of collateral facts, they eould be the
best possibleJudiel for the purpose. As to the forma-,
tion of,a separate bar tot such a Court. he thought it
impossble, for there never could be business enough to
raise st:bar. If they had the Master of the Rolls pre-
the choice of Counsel from the different bars,
and fot judges, persons acquainted with the local las s
and manners out of which the points in dispute arose,
he thought that as well a constituted Court for all the
purposes required as could 'be obtained. The next
subject to which his Learned Friend directed his obser-
vations was, that of the Justices of the country. And.
here he must say that his Learned Friend had not treated
that most meritorious class of persons—than whom there
was not a More serviceable or a m re respectable body
of men in the country—with the respect and courtesy
which their services required. He had brought together,
a few instances from the Courts of- Law of offences,
alleged
,to have been committed by patticulae Magus-
crates ; but he had been perfectly silent Upon the manner
in which the various important duties of thatgreat body
were constantly performed from one year's end to the'
lother—(Cheers),— His Learned Friend was silent upon
the number of that body, and The natoteref the dudes
which they undertook. He did not state that there
were 4.500 of these Gentlemen acting in the country,.
besides those in cities and towns corporate, and that
their duty was to carry on what he would call the ad-
ministration of domestic justice between man and man,
every day throughout the year. When he considered
the numbers and the respectability of this body, be
thought their services entitled them to a different treat-
lent,. When he considered the great variety and the
difficulty of their duties of which many could judge
Who !poked at the volumes of Burn, with all the mass
Of complicated matter, which. they contained ; and when
he Consideledthat besides their public doty, they were;
constantly engaged in doing kind offices between their'
neighbours and preventing litigation ; when he coast-%
dered all these things, he thought the wonder was not
' that there were so twiny complaints against the Magii!
tracy, but he rather marvelled that there were so feat.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that he did Ant'uy complaints
were often brought ; Mit, on the contrary, that by law it was hardly
passible to bring a Magistrate into Couit.
The SOLICITOR-GEN,ER AL proceeded. His
Learned Friend had particularly remarked upon the
powers of Justices in the licensing of alehouses. Now
be would undertake to say, that there was nothing of
which the, Magistracy would be so glad as to have this
Troublesome duty removed out of their hands—(Hear;
hear.) Perhaps a simple remedy might be found for
this in an appeel from the Petty Sessions to the Quarter
Sessions ;, or in removing the power of granting licenses
To the Quarter Sessions at Once.,
.-He did not know what °
objections or difficulties there might be, but the remedy
appeared to him very simple. But 'then his Learned
Friend said. that Justices of. the Feace.svele improperly
appointed, because :die appointment ley with,the Lords
Lieutenant of Counties. Now he shoulrdlike to know.
to wi:m.6e charge could be more properly delegated?
If the :ridges were to have the appointment, thetwoutd.
be obliged to resort_ to parties an the spot, to know who
,were fit persons, having no local knowledge of their
own. If the Secretary of. State seas to appoint, he
would be under the same necessity of
/seeking informa-
tion from a third party. Who, then, could be so pro-,
per as the Lord Lieutenant, who was himself upon the
spot, and in possession of all•the information necessary
for his direction in selecting proper persons for the
Commission? But his Learned Friend seemed to be ex-
tremely capricious arid fastidious upon this point, and
it would perhaps be very difficult for any one to find
such persons as would satisfy him. He did not like
a Clerical Magistjatr, because bis vices, were not stttli
ciently °liberal, and because. he war °pot worldly
enough. Then almost in• the same bteath.his Learned
Friend objected to Squire Magistrates, because they
were too worldly, and fond of perseduting poachers.—
Throughout his whole statement his Learned Friend
rhad rather sought to suggest defects and grievances,
than to point out remedies. But if neither the Clergy
net the Laiety would do to form a Magistracy,
°and the
whole were to be removed at " one fell swoop,' what
did his Learned friend mean to propose as a substir
este ?• Did he wish to have a paid. Magistracy? Ilso,
be should like to hilts who, was to have the appoint.
aunt of stich Mawstrapta ?If it was to he left in the Go-
vernment, he feared. they should aeon have bis. Learned
Friend complaining that the Magistrates as well as the
Judges were not taken lidficiently often from his side of
the }louse. firs Leiinid Friend; in One pot of his'ob-
servations upon another: occasion, had, be would not say
made a mistake, but intentionally put himself intoone,
for die sake of raising a smile against him, in an alto-
shin to Cromwell. When Cromwell sat in that Hoest
for the Town, not for the 'University of Cambridge,
and sitting terhaps near the place which his Learned
Friend then occupied, he was wont to say, that " what
re did not like, that he could tell ; but what he would,
have instead thereat, that he could not tell"—(A laugh)
?low he really thought that in this respect at least his
Learned Friend was very much like Oliver Cromwell-:.
(Laughter).-His Leas:nest friend then came to the
krights of the subject, upon tr4ticla be dwelt very largefy,
Ito show that the subject was aggrieved in respect to
the power of the Crown. New he would contend that
'every one et the cases petfit bis Learned Friend proved
the law to be in favour of this4jcsts;and,kaking theta
one after another, upon that proposition, he would cora.
sent that his whole argument should stand or far!. His
Learned ,his
had saidohat in case of wrong done to
the property, tiwtsuhjet.knod recourse being had to
a pOtion of right, the respopsible officer of the Crown
was It liberty to refuse his fiat to the measure, and the
sablict was SsitJlalf.OFSP.. Now, let him put the case,
whi**Leerited.Ktieticl mentioned to the House.
Avant of land was made by.fienty.Vl4l. to Sir An.

tony Brown, his Master of the Horse.
1de...1re.11.,13}14/01W: I mentioned no names—it
-injures de
. _
"Vsi-SO4cITOfkGENERAL.,said, he Would not
mentioi tin ;tames of the partiesinivrinutiested. The.
Housewas aware that in respect'', b anti of this
nature, wiea heirs.f.iled to the pose 4thepropecty
reverted tq the Crown. But wheh the *el 'claimants
WO, the-person nearest in claim by.kindsed, =Abaft
lig that.* atqod in loco apaireetis,,,l4 4dOption; Upon
iptilicallBfiftO the Creirn was common& in the pastes-
shin of the property. In the year 1697. this .property
eeterted to the Crown, there being, no,bairinater. But
sithoogh there wasno heir-malethere was reilatighter,
led the Crown made her A lease ,Qf the land.
After, this; its the year 1815, up started a peison•who
said 14, was the heiramale of the original grantee, and
he came with. his petitir of tight to be rtinstated
jet possessibil: The answer of the Attorney-General
very psoperly.wesohat if he was the heir, why did he
tot go tliatia in serve alfeleittnent ? He would
defy his Learned Frieud to say, that any public officer
would be justified; 'without any inquisitiehtrad; asishont
any record discovered, in putting suchen apidicant in
possession at the public expense, when the process of
ejectment was open to him if his identity, was capable
of proof. 'lle Attorney-General very preprify, as he
thought, refused ; and here, said his Learned Ft lend,
WAS a case of the subject left without remedy, because
he did not choose to be compelled to pi need by eject-
ment. If the title was good—and his Learned Friend
slid it was as good a title as he bad !eel. seen-and the
party refused to proceed by rjectraseituponthit penctiffo,
why he thought the matter was much :11)Off a subject
for a Commission of Lenacy thaaa Petition of Right-‘
His Learned Friend then said, that -ape. demurrer' the'
Crown was not bound to admit ,the .facit,und in that,
respect had an advantage over the subject, The sub-
ject was scarcely worth alluding to, but if there. was a
'difference against the subject, he would say, let both
'have the same advantages. Then curie the subject of
trial at Bar. His Learned Friend coriplai• ed that tie
Cron could command a trial at Bar when the subject
could not. But whenever the subject could make out
a case calling for a trial at Bar, it was well knewty that'
it was always rums!. The only
,difference_, with
that the Courts, being in form called. the King's
'Courts, it would not stern prpper that the Crown
should come into them to ask its servants for a par-
ticular form of trial. The use of the power was
therefore left with great propriety in the bands of the
Officers of the Crown, subject to their responsibility:.
And he would ask his Learned Friend if, in all
his experience, or all his reading, he had ever met with
an instance where the power had been abused ? The
next point was that of withdrawing the record, upon
"'which he would say that there was not, in fact, the least
difference between the subject and the Crown. Hon.
Gentlemen would be acquainted with the meaning of a
nonsuit, although he trusted tone of them had become
so from personal experience. It meant that a party was
allowed to go out of Court without hit case coming to
judgment. Now, as the King could not be nonsuite4
in his own Court, the Crown was allowed to withdraw
the record ; but, there was no difference in the situation
of the parties. Each could return-into Court again,if
they liked, and their situation would be the same
in the end ; for, as the King bad paid no costs, it
mattered nothing whether the Crown Officers pro-
ceeded de novo or upon the record. Then he came
to his Learned Friend's observations upon the subject
of Costs. It was true that the King neither paid
nor received costs, and the question was one purely
of fiscal regulation. Whether it was better to let the
costs be paid by the subject, or to defray them out of
the public purse—for into that the question resolved
itself—the Commission might inquire
.if it should be
thought necessary. The next complaint was that of
a subject not being allowed to pray a tales, where
the Crown was A party in the cause; and a case
had been mentioned in which the Attorney General
refused. After vindicating the general principle of
Special Juries, the Hon. and Learned Member proceed.
ed to state, that, in the case mentioned, one Law, and
fear others, had been prosecuted by the Exchequer for
a 'smuggling transaction, in which a person named
Mead, and some others, were witnesses for the Crown.
There were two trials, upon the first of which the
parties were found guilty, 'hut-upon the second they
were acquitted. Upon this followed eighteen indict-
.natnta for perjury against the Crown witnesses, and the
.first of them was foind guilty. Upon this the Attorney.
General interposed u ith the power against which his
Learned Friend complained, and a most proper inter-
position he thought it was. He found that the parties
were taken by surpthat with e eve cage which had been
got up for the purpose, acid which they had abundant
evidence to meet if time was allowed to procure it. He
knew also that, upon the fullest consideration, the Court
would afterwards se; aside mayeuch proceedings, and
he' herefore very rightly-determined not to sacrifice
the other seventeen persons.. What was the result?
The Court did afterwards set aside the-vetdict iii
the case that was tried, with costs, and not nserelY
the costs between party and party, but with'
large and liberal costs. But his Learned Friend had
said this was not all, for that after Law had spent
10,0801. in expenses, and was totally ruined, he was shot
dead by Mead in consequence of some excitement in
the village where they lived, near Scarborough, occa-
sioned by the singing of a song containing allusions to
these transacttons.—His Learned Friend had also added,
that for such a crime Mead had only been found guilty
of manslaughter, and sentenced to a slight punishment.
Now the House would readily suppose that there were
Some features in the case which had not been mentioned,
to ',lake an offence so lamentable in its result amount
only to manslaughter. In fact, the case was a very dif-
ferent one from that represented by his Learned Friend.,
A riotous mob had been cnhlected during the preceding
day, and one man who had been a witness with Mud was
dragged through the streets and nearly beaten to death,
and afterwards taken down the street towardssthe sea
and threatened with drowning, the mob telling him that
his partner Mead should be set wed in the same way.—
After this, a party of the rioters went to Mead's house;
in the night, singing the song alluded to.; and Law being
on horseback, with his head near Mead's window, the
latter fired a pistol, and Law was'shOt dead. The Judge
who tried the case afterwards—and to name him was to
mention a name fevered by every one for acuteness„
firtipets, learning, and the greatest benignity of temper,
that ever, adorned. the Bench—lse meant Mr. Justice
Holroyd—declared, in sentencing Mead, that the crime
was committed under the apprehension of personal vio-
lence. This, he thought was e.very different statement of
thOacts from the one whichjuiLearned Friend had giver)
to the House. He had. now .gone over the principal
grounds upon which he differed from his Learned
Ftiead ; and be thought that the dfference Was ealy
tub a one as might esist between one man's judgment
,and that of another, ',salient any great opposition of
sentiment. The sum of all his Learned Friend's remedy
, atilt:tented to this, that as e should have law it a cheaper
rani., "Now, it was far from his mind to see the law
placed beyond the poor man's teach by its cost, or by

any other circumstance; bet he knew it to be impossi-
ble to rqaintain the laws and their administration in a
state, to command that reverence and respect which
formed one great cause of their efficacy, without creating
,also a considerable portion of expense. He should be
most happy. if it were possible, to render the law
more accessible. That he should wish to do so long as
they preserved its character. But if the country wished' •
to. nreserite. itil "iystem—if they would have the %terms,
vemion of Judges, instead of going hefor,osimpleJass, ,
cites of the Peace,. as in France-tinymast.have the'
and of meinteining them, end that siaiiibiebost eves-
repense of.tritrisppyting witnesses bum place to. placer
sive part of the system ae4eisitY of having sock
officers learneitht the law, whilst Ssieiitylias in its pro-
sent state, must be apparent to ertery one. A simple'
state •f law would do for a 'simple state of society ; bat'
our complicated system reonired complicated !awaited .
that necessarily occasioned expense, because the laws'
must, be declared. Why was it necessary for the
to have the law so. clearly defined in a cnintuois:,
Turnpike Act, which was made to column •more lave
than wound. have teen .suffic:ent to govern a, whole'
province. in India under its ancient dynasty?--It
was because. they would leave nothing to the discre-
tion of the 'Judges, but made them mere machina-
tor exPlainiog the law, which was therefore declared,
beforehand. It was necessary also, if they would have
the laws administered by persons of education and ac-
customed to move iq the society of Vientiane!), that the
.practice of .the iaw ahnuld.lead to ft-Insist apil .
lion. Let him not be
:misupderstood io 16,se fe,alipks.-
.He did not wish to stand in the way of any relucicas . •
that were practicable in legal expenes, so that the re..
spectability and the efficacy ot tie systeol stionlif not
• •
be affected by them. But if law was to be io cheaper el
that men should go into the Coutts. upon everittrillßg. -
ticcasion without any check, then .he 'thought ,she •
country would no longer be worth living ins .'Every
man's hind would be.fitted against hikneighOcior; 'the'
nor would be arrayed against
:the rich, and. all the
bonds of society would be.torn asunder. He would now
leave this part of the subject "with much 'satisfaction
to himself, and come so. his' Learnect:lri!e!rd's objec-
-dons to the form of, pleadints,lhe meths:ids to which •
his flonouribleFriendf, as , destrugs of reverting had
only lately been.depakted from, and, as it bad been gos
nerally believed, With great advantage. The-Tresent
forms were only introduced.in the time of Lord,Atritso •
field, and they had then been characterised
and most useful improvemenr. Although the plea
might lay seven causes of action, he asked his Learned
Friend whether, at an Assize town, he bad ever met
with an Attorney who came. to him and said that'. hs
had any difficulty in knowing the ground of the proceed-
ings? And, even if such a difficulty existed, his Learned
Friend knew that they could at once have a bill of parti=
cularshy applying to theJudge.lt would be well,perhaps, •
for the Commissioners to inquire how. far these forms
were capable of simplification ot improvement. With.
respect to the other insinuations thrown out by his -
Learned Friend, respecting the advascement of the
adMinistration of justice, he fully concurred in his sug-
gestions, and had no doubt they would be attended to
in the proper quarter, and that they would prove a
most efficacious remedy against loss of. time. He
thought it would be well to open the Court of Exche-
quer, and make it a-concurrent common law
:Orin.
diction with the other'Couras When a Bar should
be formed for the different in 'common, he
did not see why the whole liasipess, Of the' country
should not flow in a much more rank!, torrent than
at present. Cases in Equity might.' be-sent there
'from the Chancery Courts
.greatly to. their ;efeft—.
With regard to the alteration of the Verms, he thought
the moveable berms, Easter and Trinity, might be
fixed with advantage. He also agreed with his Learned
Friend, that the subject of the Welch Judicature Would
be well referred to, the consideration of the Commis-
sioners. Upon the subject of fees as a remuneration.tn .
Judges, that was a system. from which they had just
departed, and he thought it more consistent with the
character and dignity of a Judge that he should
have a fixed and stabfeincome, than that he should be
remunerated 'by fees, which might raise suspicions in
the minds of the people. His learned Friend had indeed
himself objected to the Judge of the Admiralty Cart
being paid in fees, and if it was objectionable in one
case, sir must it be in all. His Learned Friend next
recommended that the Court of Common Fleas should
be opened. Now he thought it viool4.ba better pre.
served in its present state. Out of. Term time the Court
was already open, and if in Tampa: his Learned Friend
well knew was the case, the Court Was quite occupied
with its own business, he saw ao 'reason, for change.
Another ground of objection was, that he 'liana-lit asi'
preservation of the offices of Sergeant useful' to the
practice of the bar. It enabled certain persons at the
bar to receive distinctions from the Crown which cold
toot otherwise be conferred. If they were to opi.rt all the
"Courts, separate bars Must be established, or the public
busioess would suffer. The fault in the Chancery Courts
.now was, that there were two concurrent jurisdictions •
going on without separate bars, and it was freqcently
a matter of difficulty to get the Counsel employed in the
same cause together. In Ireland, he understood that.
the evil was carried to a still greater extent; and that
it was common to see the names of seven or eight Bans.
sisters on one brief, in order to secure the presence of
tome one of them. in the right Court when the cause
was called on. He therefore saw no reason why they
should not preserve the separate bar in the Commas
Pleas, as it already existed. He had not touched upon
the question of evidence, because he thought it ought
to be kept apart as a subject of separate legislation.—
They were now touching, as it were, the Cringes of the
law, and making such improvements as could be
effected without interfering with its great leading prin-
ciples. But the law of evidence was a sort of master
key to the whole, which ought not to be touched with-
out the greatest caution, and in which no alteration bad
ever been made but by a distinct proposition from
some individual who had come before Parliament with
his Bill prepared for their consideration. Thus the sta-
tute of frauds and perjuries had been, proposed by that
treat man Sir Matthew Hale; and again the statute
of. Anne was the subject of distinct legislation.
assdnedbhyosehiskluboon.stainled Learned Friend:
He had. thus adverted to the most important suggestions
whichif hheandabdeeesnpnire
ando
*points to the consideration of a Commitssir ring
i many
onef7rile had
dAiso
given the reasons which had induced him to come to
Such decision. And he would state to the House as a
farther reason for the Commission being limited as to the
aubjects it should entertain, that he had no doubt what-
Wver that several Bills would be laid b-fore it, having
for their several objects the improvement of the law as
it at present stood, with respect to most of the branches
whjch he considered to be foreign to ss hat ought to be the
duties of the Commission. One of 04213111 s to which be had
'-alluded, would be to prevent any insolvent being heard
excepting under particular circumstances. Another
Would
.14 to prevent any infant being bound to the
paiment of debts which had been contracted is its
early i.ifancy, without written document& A Bill also

`would be introduced to
made false. representat
Bill would have for iti
question of " Variance'
'masked:4cm by his H
Ile believed, Also, ,that
-iure of. a healing
it no ion
:ing Richa
preftriptitc ri
infested, tl
dficiently vc
to a reason'
greatly it
made all t
'position at
id which
seem to hi
the cause
:t since;
ciend was in
'homer in
ilatory not
'ben nded care
stem of tl
tppily and
their anc
with bon
nwilling tc
or a chant
He was c
-huse modi
time had
it to hew
had bee
property.
concurred
Hon.• and
Cornmissim,
' and defin
JRGE LA N.
General accus
of Peaces
rovement of
was felt v
Indervalue
Friend in
pointment.
the Countl
trter 'paid
either tin
He hoped
but stil
nds of the 1
any offer
Bench tit
, was sure t
present sysi
-!silence.
to obtain
!minal or c
iprisonmet
lould be n
remedy again
"Inct possible
ration in tl'
of separate
,wed to star
Law the
ten in the
pewit wh,c
light be alb
did it to
law was,
as thou wi

_ rule was not ma
the oath of- one wi
against the oaths of et
of this rule, that they
be presumed the petsc
allegiance.. II the oat
'iv in other cases, wl
might arise, would thi,
dente ? Did any hon
dente, uk himself who
Egle or two witnesses?
der ation.
The ATTORNEY.
ith some of the sum
is Hon. and Learned
ad no objection to a
er which bad been pi
earned Colleagut;
on. trod Learned . F.
greed that there did
business in the CI
earned Judges were
on matters unworthy
important points wen
of the Judges of th
Chief Jostice, in wht
law could be decide
business. He agree(
grievance, and perk
was by the am:minim
of things hid arisen
In the time of Lord
SIOO causes upon the
/sot ough there were
generally. from
.600 i
ip
adictlon in the law
on to do that whi
old discharge. .d
filling that had fallen
riend with tespec
e 'would not trou
pon that part of 1
ourt of Common
dvisable to throw
id appear to him
the Learned Sergew
and therefore he cc
It was true that th
cif- Sergeant, but it
that its other favour
he was an humble
been so. fortunate a
Crown, he could nc
brethren of that sou
poses it was unknow
sitorioas,...Wear, he
much which had
Learned F?iend will
The great' inci ease
increasing complex
that citeuiNistance,
business /him the

entertain.. That;
could atiViit,that t
inefliciett *bile chi
..
and hisßight Hon.
among the*Jadjiel.

iiilii

measure ot. a
would render it
ime when Kini
rove a prescril
t must be code
oint was suflici
ring down to a
present .were gr
lie had Alien ma
mpon the pyopos
Arned Friend
tie might seen
j kewarm in the
lily with .perfect
earned friend
'ss a fellow-Jabot
•+bim neither dila'
'the most unboune
'the roots and ste
'lvy had so happ
opiate shade th
. long slept wl
found unwi
er decay or i
. • •irable. He
ction, of thor
e lApse ot, tin
ver consent I
ie ns which b
berry and of pi
ending, he col
mon of his Hoe
ent of a Com
ing limited ar
Mr. G EORG
licitor•Genet
e Justices of
the improves
ss which wa
e did not and
onnurable Fr
their appoir
nant of the
, toust be bettei
sons, ttan eit
I'ti State. He
repealed;
the minds e
nvicted of ai
ached the Be
. nishapent wa
n to the prey
eir loco req,
o difficult to
ter by crimi
bject of impr
bt there shou
,that the remed;
=lost cumplete,
that any alterat
the subject of s
man was allow
the Cotirts of L
!me was given
writ Less compet
the partimaigt
cause, if they ti
r the rule of la
VI convict, as t.
the rule was 1