Star.
London, England, 1810-03-06 00:00:00

t

on the Admiral or the i'avr, and concluded by .
ing the previous question.
Mr. BROUGHAM could assure the House, it,
particularly his Hon. Friend [Mr. Whitbread,"
several other Members had risen at the same time wits,
Mr. Brougham]—that he should not detain the House
long. He had felt himself called upon to offer him-
.sslf to the notice of the House, by the appeal made
by his Hon. and Learned Friend. His Hen. and
Learned Friend had called upon Gentlemen to state
what law, statute, or charter made the conduct of
Lord Chatham, in presenting his Narrative to his So-
vereign without the privity of his colleagues, a viola-
tion of the Constitution. He had risen humbly to
tender that answer to the House. As he felt it forci-
bly, it would be his fault if he did not explain it satis-
factorily to the House. As his Hon. and Learned
Friend had introduced much extraneous matter into
his speech, he should first make a few observations
upon that, before he came to the immediate object of
his rising. It was certainly not his wish that the son
of Chatham, and the brother of Pitt, should not have
justiceidone him in that House. He was ready to
assent to every commendation which had been be-
stowed upon the general conduct and character of
Lord Chatham. True it was, that Lord Chatham
had been most grossly calumniated. True it was,
that he had been basely traduced by the whole of
the press under the controul of the Government.—
True it was that every effort was made to vilify
his military character, and tarnish his professional
fame. His Honourable and Learned Friend and
the House would recollect, that until the commence-
ment of this Inquiry, the impression upon the pub-
lic mind had been, that it was owing to Lord Chat-
ham that an Expedition, the most important that had
ever left our shores, had failed ; that it was owing to
Lord Chatham, that an enterprise, having for its ob-
ject the destruction of the enemy's naval force and
arsenals in the Scheldt., had terminated, in failure;
that the lamentable disappointment of ill the sanknine
hopes of the country from an armament so powerful,
was wholly owing to Lord Chatham. These were
the calumnies against Lord Chatham which had pro-
duced the unfavourable impression against his Lord-
ship, whilst asserted With Emifidence, and uncontra-
dicted by authority. He agreed with his Hon. and
Learned Friend, that it was snore dignified in that
Noble Lord not to take any notice of these slanders.
But it was not his intention on that occasion to go
farther into that subject; in order to shew that Lord
Chatham had been thus foully caltimniated. Having
stated his concurrence with the opinion of his Hon.
4nd Learned Friend upon this point, it remained for
him to make a few observations upon those points in
which he differed from him, But lie must first remark,
. that many of the observations of his Hon. and Learned
Friend went directly ,in support of the arguments of
those Who meant to vote for the resolutions. It was
admitted that the conduct of Lord Chatham bad been
iMproper and unbecoming. There *as but a trifling
difference between what was thus admitted by his
Hon. and Learned Friend, and what was contended
for by those who supported the resolutions. The dis-
tinction was so minute, that he was surprised it could
have produced any variation of opinion. He came
next to shew how the conduct of Lord Chatham was
a violation of the Constitution. The resolutions under
discussion did not aver that any thing false or insidious
was to be ascribed to Lord Chatham, or that he had
taken advantage of easy access to his Majesty to poi-
son the Sovereign's ear against any man, or class
of men. Whatever insinuations of that description.
might hoe.been made, they had no means of coming
at. They had enough, however, before them, in the
Answer of his Majesty to their Address, and in the,
evidienie of Lord Chatham to prove, that a Narrative
11
had been presented or conveyed privately to his Ma-
jesty, with a request that it might be kept secret. It
was impossible to suppose that the Noble Lord had
intended to mock his Sovereign : the Narrative must
consequently have been presented with a view to im-
press upon his Majesty's mind some representation
upon the subject to which it related. Afterwards
the Narrative was taken back for the purpose of
omitting a material discussion, as appeared from the
evidence. This being the state of the case, there
was nothing stated in the Resolutions charging any
part of the contents of the Narrative as a breach of
the Constitution. It yeas the privacy with which the
affair v as conducted, that constituted the violation of
the Constitution. It might be (difficult for him to point
out any particular Act of Parliament making such
conduct a violation of the Constitution ; but he could
appeal to any one of , those principles of which the
Constitution is made up, or rather which form the
Constitution itself—(Hear, Hear.) Was it not ne-
cessary thatthe Constitutional Ministers of the Crown
should, communicate constitutionally, and confiden-
tially, upon all public affairs ? Was it not requisite
that they should conduct the business of the Govern-
ment with united Councils, and mutual advice and
co-operation ? Were they not bound by every obliga-
tion of duty, and every principle of the Constitution,
to devise in concert all the measures essential to the
public interests and welfare ? And was it not neces-
sary that they should consult previously, in order to'
an effectual co-operation afterwards, in the execution
of the various measures of the Government ? Here,
however, they found Lord Chatham separating him-
self from his colleagues, and tendering a statement
to his Majesty, that is, giving his advice without
consulting the other Members of the Administration.
(Hear, hear.) They found him not only doing that,
but coupling it with a request of secrecy ? But above
all, he would ask, whether it was not necessary that
they should have some person responsible for every
act of the King or State ? (Hear, hear.) When the
Noble Lord thus communicated his advice secretly
to his Majesty, how was it possible for them to look
to his Majesty's Ministers as responsible for what
they knew nothing about ? Here he would remind
Ids Honourable and Learned Friend who had ex-
pressed so eloquent an eulogium on the great
Lord Chatham, that that illustrious person had pas-
sed his whole life in fighting the battles of the Con-
stitution. He it was who had denounced the exis-
tence of that secret influence behind the Throne,
and which was greater than the Throne itself." He
must also call upon the House to recollect the last
act of his Ministerial existence, when he resigned his
office, because he would not be responsible for
measures over which he had no controul." He called
upon the House to fix their attention upon that con-
duct, and then decide whether tile), could pass over
the present case without sonic Marked declaration of

the circumstances through the examination at their
bar. Lord Chatham might, if he had thought pro-
per, have required permission to correct his evidence:
he might have, in that ease, admitted that he had
previously conveyed to his Majesty a paper, which
paper he had afterwards requested back for the pur-
pose of omitting a particular part ; and that the pa-
per before the House was the same as the original pa-
per, with the exception of that omission. Had this been
done, it might have presented the case in a different
light; but tio, the Noble Lord left the matter to take its
course. Was such conduct justifiable or not ? The
I louse would recollect the circumstances of an inquiry
which took place respecting the disposal of a Seat in
Parliameut so late as last Session. In that instance
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), whose share in the
transaction was under discussion, had candidly admit-
ted that his conduct had been incautious; and it
!may have been to that admission it was owing that
no proceeding was taken by the House upon the sub-
ject. The House had, is a former night, consider-
ed it so alarming that a private paper should be given
in to his Majesty, without the privity of his other
coakidential advisers, that an Address was voted in
his Majesty with a view to its production. When
they recollected how they had come at the knowledge
of such a paper having been presented to his Majesty
—when they weighed all the circumstances of the
case, and looked to the conduct of Lord Chatham—
it was impossible for them to be so insensible of what,
was due to their own character and dignity, as to
declare by their vote, that'such conduct was in the
slightest degree justifiable. Upon these grounds, he
should feel himself bound to vote for the Resolutions
• Mr. STEPHEN observed, that the question then
really before the House was, whether the House of
Commons should pronounce Lord Chatham guilty of
a violation of the Constitution Under all the cir-
cunastances of the case, and pending. the inquiry then
in r•-ogress, notwithstanding the situation of Lord
Chatham as a Cabinet )(mister and Commander in
Chief, he must say, that he had heard no argument
to induce him to agree to so serious a censure as was
contained in the Resolutions. He was convinced it
would be impossible for the House to agree to thee..
Resolutions, because if it should, it would then be
bound, in order to be consistent with itself, to proceed
to measures which would terminate the public life of
Lord Chatham. Before he could proceed to that
length, he must be acquainted with the nature of the
charge, and 'the circumstances of the case. In the
premises as laid in the first Resolution, he did not
find any thing that could be considered a foundatibn
for the censure contained in the latter. Nothing that
was false or insidious was charged against the state-
ment of the Noble Lord ; neither had it been asserted
that he had poisoned the ear of his Majesty against
the navy. The mere abstract proposition, that the
statement had been secretly given to his Majesty, was
all the charge rested upon : and upon such an ab-
stract proposition he would not admit that Lord
Chatham had Violated that sacred system, the British
Constitution. He was persuaded that the conduct of
Sir Richard Strachan was perfectly blameless and
correct ; but even'that feeling should not induce him
to condemn Lord Chatham. If even the premisei of
the resolutions were correct, he should contend that
they involved no violation of the British Constitution.
In what law or charter, he would ask, of British
rights, in what writer or theorist upon either, was It
stated that to present a statement to the King, was,
on the part at a Privy Councillor, a violation of the
Constitution? (Hear, hear.) He would again assert
tliat there was no such law, and that no precedents
Were to be found in their journals in support of such a
doctrine. He was prepared, however, to state his opi-
nion candidly, that in presenting his statement, as he
had done, the conduct of LordChatham was erroneous,
improper, and unbecoming : but it was no violation of
the Constitution. Every thing that was dangeroas
to the Constitution was not a violation of it. Luxury
rams dangerous to the Constitution of a state ; yet
no man would contend that to give a sumptuous and
magnificent entertainment would be a violation of *e
Constitution.—( Lord law:ker.) Gentlemen were
merry, but he would give them another illustration.
Party spirit and factious combinations were danger-
ous to the Constitution—rime/ cries of hear, hear !)
He had here touched the string which vibrated velth
most elasticity in the breasts of the Gentlemen oppo-
site; but he was quite sure that these Gentlemen
would not contend that either was a violation of the
Constitution. Though he was not satisfied with the
conduct of Lord Chatham, if called upon to give a
definitive vote, he must meet the resolutions with a
negative. Ile considered Lord Chatham as hardly
dealt by, and much injured, and expressed sorro* for
having participated in the unfavourable impression
of his conduct, produced by the calumnies with which
• h:s character had been assailed, not the smallest part
of which was borne out by the evidence taken at the
bar. Lord Chatham appeared to him to have done
all that Under the circumstances could have been done.
Lord Wellington, and that was no light praise to any
General, could not haie done,more. He could not,
therefore, admit of presumptions against Lord Chat-
ham, who had certainly some hereditary claims to the
attention of that House. What would be the effect
of agreeing to the Resolutions, if not to stop the course
of the pending inquiry ?—fLosid cries of hear, hear. )
When he had last addressed the House, he had expe-
rienced the same acclamations and 0. P. arguments.
.—eii /aiii4)—a course of proceeding resorted to by
the Gentlemen opposite, instead of meeting him with
fair reasoning or sound argument.. At first it was
neceisary for the salvation of the country that the In-
quiry should be continued freer') day to day. Now,
however, when it was found that the evidence would
net bear out the inferences of these Gentlemen—
( Thee, hear,)—this episode was introduced, calculated,
no doubt, to hurry on the catastrophe, in part at least,
because if the Gentlemen opposite could not turn out
all the Cabinet, they expected to turn out one by this
Tiroceeding. He contended, that to vote the Resolu-
tions would be to punish Lord Chatham, whilst the
'merits of the Expedition would he afterwards to be
enquired into. The Honourable and Learned Gen-
tternan then adverted to the merits and services of the
father and brother of Lord Chatham, and called upon
the Hotise to do justice to the son of Chatham, and
the brother of Pitt. He besought Gentlemen, not by
• any invidious contrasts, to pluck stones from the mo-
nument of the father to bruise the head of the son.
The Hoaourable and Learned Gentleman next eon-
leteded,"that the Narratite contained no reflection up-

Contents were permitted to be reeelated by
? If such a practice wure to'"prevail, lie
indeed tremble for the country. He could not
of its
dy for him
more dangerous situation of thin
aey cases; bto
sye,
declaring
Commonsaring t h a
that
shouldto be alsasxuvm
which
theh ighp othtshvae:
the}
ease. if an .
:apricio
. so to declare on an immediate view rat
one Minister, under
, and without reference to any other autho
suppose that the
tillery ; another
case ) bra coin-tic
the preference to a division of light horse. Every rity. was an incontrovertible principle of the -
one might have a different opinion, and all agree entetione that that could not be unconst tonal
itttccon.
only in one thing, that their advice should be kept against which the Constitution possessed
tare
guard,
glue and secret in the possession of his Majesty.— Ministers were responsible for any act of Crown •
Could any Gentleman conceive a greater degree but for advice not carried into action they were not
of confusion worse confounded than would result responsible. The law did not allow that tey should
from such a state of Ministerial separation It had be responsible. Merely, therefore, to offer advice to
been argued by his Honourable and Learned Friend, the. Sovereign was not unconstitutional, because the
that as the inquiry was not yet brought to a conclu. Constitution did not afford any guard against such
lion, it was impossible for the House to come to any a circumstance by rendering the individual who of.
.decision upon this question ; but he must remind the fered it responsible. The Noble Lordsaas aacPteederuapnodn
House, that the charge against Lord Chatham, for a Privy Councillor, had a right to have access to his
the secrecy of this unconstitutional proceeding, form- Majesty. If the advice conveyad to his Majesty's
ed a wholly distinct and entire act, the decision upon ear was acted upon, it could only be
Which could have no effect whatever upon the pro- constitutionally through the medium of a responsible
gress or termination of the inquiry. They had the Minister. There was the check. Tirol was the pro:
admission of Lord Chatham, and the answer of his per and constitutional responsibility. It afracto him
Majesty to establish the fact ; and he should wish to by whom the act was done, not him by when; this
know, whether, if they were to rejtct the resolutions, advice might have been given. The former was os.
there would not be an end of all responsibility on the tensible ; the latter it might be difficult to trace. In
part of his Majesty's Ministers. It was in a spirit of the course of the present discussion, and of former
fairness to the colleagues of Lord Chatham, 'that he discussions on subjects connected with it, a great deal
called upon the House to agree to the resolutions— had been said of secret influence. At an early period
for it would be injustice to them to hold them res- of his life, on the commencement indeed of his poll-
ponsible for what they were not acquainted with. He tical life, he had also heard a great deal about secret
should call upon the House, therefore, to support influence. At that period he hid not the means of
e
these Resolutions, in justice to the principles of the knowing whether the clamour was true orase. The
, illustrious Statesman, father of the Noble Lord, had
'Constitution, in fairness to his Majesty's Ministers
from a regard to the honour et the Crown, in secu- unquestionably given to that clamour the stamp of
ring from violation that insuperable barrier, which his great authority, and had rendered it more cur.
guards the personal inviolability of the Sovereign, rent. From many persons however, who were well
by casting the responsibility of all his acts upon qualified to judge upon the subject, he had he;u'd
his advisers. He had to apologize to the House for much disbelief expressed as to the existence of eeis
having taken up so much of its time ; and for the tea- secret influence. He really did not himself possess
sons he had stated, should vote for the Resolutions. the means of ascertaining its existence ; but even if
Mr. BANKES deemed the present a question of it did exist, the constitution afforded nu remedy
great moment. It had occurred to him even before ageinst it. If there were Ministers so base as to hold
he entered the House, that he ought to pause before responsible situations wider irrespons ble advisers,
he gave his opinion, and to consider deliberately whe- however great the clamour might be against those
ther the Noble Lord, whose conduct was condemned advisers, and even however great the mischief that
in the Resolutions before the House, had been guilty their advice might occasion, the Constitution afforded
of any practice which justified the term unconstitu- ,no means by which they could be punished; the respell.
tional, as applied to that conduct. He had listened 'sible Ministers alone being liable by the Constitution to
very attentively to the Learned Gentleman who had' punishment for the acts committed by them. At the
just sat eleven, and who, he presumed, had collected same time he begged to disclaim any approbation of
all that could be said in support of the argument such underhand transactions.. But it was indispensi.
which he had mentioned. To what did that all ble to see what the Constitution was upon the subject,
amount ? The Learned Gentleman was of opinion and by the Constitution to abide; If his Majesty's
that the conduct of Lord Chatham had been uncon- responsible Ministers were guilty of improper con-
stitutional, and this opinion he declared that he duct, the House of Commons might address his Ma-
lted dedueed from all the known principles of the jesty to remove them ; but no address of the House
-Constitution. The Learned Gentleman had stated could touch any individual who was not a responsii)le
it as,one of those known principles, that the Members Minister. Recurring to the case in question, be con-
of the Cabinet Council should act in concert. Now tended that if the charge against the Noble Lord is
the fact was, that the existence of a Cabinet Council the proposed resolutions was not distinctly made oat
was unknown to the Constitution. In old times, the —if it was not proved that his conduct had been
Privy Councillors were 'the Constitutional advisers clearly unconstitutional—nay, if there was the slight-
of his Majesty; although it was true that in modern est doubt upon the subject, it would be an act of the
times, owing to an occurrence originating in a cabal, greatest injustice to adopt a motion involving in it
a certain number of those Privy Councillors were some serious consequences to the party accused. It
' usually formed into a body, and called the Cabinet was by the Noble Lord's wish that his narrative had
Council. And here he would remark, that when he been moved for and presented to the House. That
agreed, on a recent evening, to the Address telative narrative had certainly placed his Lordship in an in-
to the production of any farther Narrative of Lord convenient situation. If he had instead been ex-
Chatham's, it was not on the general grounds of con- amined at the Bar on the points to which it related, his
stitutieinal necessity stated by the Moyer of that Ad- statements in his own defence would perhaps have been
dress. His reason for concurring in the Motion of moreexcusable; and after all, the narrative only stated
the Address was, that.the House having thought fit what the Noble Lord had done, and called upon the
to require the production of one narrative, and there other service to explain the circumstances of which he
appearing a suspicion that a prior narrative was in was ignorant. It would indeed be most unjust, it for
existence, he could see no cause, as the second narra- any error of judgment in the mode of doing this, the
tine had been produced, why the first ought not to be Noble Lord should be subjected to a censure so
demanded. He could by no means understand on heavy as that which the proposed Resolutions con-
What principle of the Constitution the Learned Gen- veyed. If any additional proof were requisite that
*man founded his doctrine, that one of the confiden- the individual advice of a Minister to his Sovereign
tial advisers of his Majesty, recognized as'such, ought was not unconstitutional, it might be found in the
not to have access to his Sovereign to tender any ad- conduct, on a certain occasion, of a man too warmly
vice that he might think proper. If such an indivi- attached to the Constitution to violate it ;he meant
dual were to take this step without the knowledge of Mr. Pitt, who, on that occasion, was closeted with
his colleagues, to them it might be .an offence, but his Majesty while his Colleagues were kept in the
certainly none to the Constitution. After the Expe- anti-room.
dition had terminated, and Lord Chatham's functions Mr. STEPHEN explained. He by no means
as Commander in Chief had ceased, had not the No- called on the House not to proceed against the Noble
ble Lord a right, as a Constitutional adviser of his Lord for the sake of his father and his brother; he
Majesty, and holding the high situation which he did had only said that the words of William Earl of
in the government of the Country, to demand an au o Chatham ought not to be quoted to aggravate the
diente of his Sovereign, for the purpose of rendering accusation against his son, and he had only conjured
to him an account of his proceedings ? Would not those who venerated that illustrious character, and
the Noble Lord have had a right to do this by word who were attached to, and had been obliged by Mr.
of mouth ? Not only had he a right to do so ; but he Pitt, to assist his feeble efforts in the defence of the
.would have been culpable had he not done so. If Noble Lord against the stream'of party spirit, and to
then he had a right to give his Majesty advice and rescue him from the grossest injustice.
information by word of mouth, what was there in Mr. G. JOHNSTONE said, that he came down
the character of a written, and therefore of a more to the House satisfied with a conviction that the con-.
detailed and accurate statement by which such a duct of the Noble Lord demanded the adoption re
right was abrogated? With respect to the motives some serious resolutions. But the speeches of h s
which induced the Noble Lord to withdraw his first Learned Friend (Mr. Stephen), of whose judgment
-statement, for the purpose of returning it in an amen- and talents, lie had the highest opinion, and of the
ded form, the House had net the means of judging. Learned Gentleman opposite, although very differen..t
It was probable that they would have known more from each other, led him to doubt the accuracy of hn,
on this subject, had it not been for the interruption own judgment upon the question. He certainly did
which had occurred in the examination of the Noble not conceive that the conduct of the Noble Lord hed
Lord ; but, even were those motives criminal, the been more unconstitutional than the conduct of the
Gen
-
a was not against the Constitution. It might be late Duke of Portland and a Right Honourable
a very heinous moral crime, but no such crime was tleanan now out of office, with respect to the secret
charged in the resolutions before the Howe. No- advice given by them, and affecting a Noble Lords
thing could be more dangerous than to charge an in- who was their colleague. His idea of the affair wa:
dividual with a crime, the nature of which was not that Lord Chatham had acted improperly, not as
distinctly and decisively described, but which was left Cabinet Councillor, but as a General of an army't
to be interpreted as circumstances might require. He and he wished that some resolution should be a p.e,d_
did not utter this opinion because the Noble Lord to prevent the recurrence of such a proceedinerf
was descended from one of the most illustrious states- was not prepared to agree to the strong' roe,
r.Ltiooins.
men, or because he was the brother of one of the best proposed, which went to disable the Noble d,
friends that the country had ever enjoyed. If the in- from serving his Majesty in future. To th eentn
dividual whose conduct was under consideration was he would not go. He had not tile ltanour being
one of the meanest subjects in 'the reaim he would much known to Lord Chatham•
he saoulS
still, contend that it was an intolerable grievance to. for the peculiar circumstances of the case,
_o,
charge him as the Resolutions charged the Noble not have boasted of being at all known to the, is:
1:i:
Lord. The Resolutions, if agreed to, would throw Lord hi would say, that every one w"uost
on the Noble Lord's character a stigma most injuri- the honour of being acquainted with him,
mount!'
ous to him as a public man. If agreed to, how aware that of the various public men in the c
ought they to be followed up ? Unquestionably the no one was more eminent for candour, fairness, re;
House ought to address his Majesty to remove from sincerity. In the proceeding which he had adooer.
Were it not :1,1.
his Council a man whom they had previously de-- the Noble Lord ;oust have been led into an
the resole ,
dared to be an abuser of the Royal ear, and a vio- was sure that the Honourable Mover of
tai
lator of the Constitution. The Constitution was a tionsnvould not believe in his cooler ninine''?t.ss
large book, which every man reattnn his own way. Lord Chatham's narrative was. presented tovt
In what state would the country be if tit* interprets- jesty. with dark, malignanto and insidious vie

uneonsitutional teatwitr'rirtit% un- tion of its or
n to take up their nine by pointlig party feeling
ut 511': the argument he wouldisuppote should inde&
n Expedition were determined upon, conceive a n
der the influence of this system? might that the Hou
object waste be best attained by an, of capricious)
by infantry, another (as in the late might. chuse_
-dc-main, whilst another might give-the-ease, an,

lOrs, a Cabinet orCabat to advise tie Iting,, and to
I consult together. There was no need of le4ining to
prove this, and yet they were now asked by a Law-
yer and itt Member of Parliament, where was the Sta-
tute ? where, the Charter of the Constitution.? Mr.
Pitt and Mr. Fox were now dead, and with them in
' the grave their profound knowledge of the Constitu-
tion. If the former were now alive, would he not
reprobate the conduct even of a brother ?—(Hear,
hear !) if the latter, he well knew, and so did the
House, how the integrity of his mind would direct
him (Hear, hear!). Under the reign of the Tudors
our Constitution first sprang into form ; at first, the
King was every thing, and the people nothing. Soon,
however, the office of Secretary of State was recog-
nised ; then Privy Councillor became known ; next,
Lords of the Treasury and the Admiralty, &c. The
Revolution followed, and gave life and vigour to this
mass. A system of official form has since been intro-
duced—a system of responsibility on the part of the
Ministry, of inviolability on the part of the King. Mr.
Justice Blackstone had noticed his two chief peculia-
rities ; his " perpetuity" and his " perfection." In
' any other country in the world, if our King's consti-
tutional perfection was mentioned, no doubt it would
be laughed at ; but here the wisdom of the principle
was known, and its beneficial consequences ; its
transfer of responsibility to Ministers duly appreciated.
The act of Lord Chatham went to destroy that
principle', uu,d to institute an unofficial, irresponsible
If :.r.Ol (bear, hear) This, if adopted, must destroy
tnstitution. It was in direct violation of what
' every writer had assumed as the Constitution ; Black-
stone, Coke, Comyns, &c. Lord Chatham's conduct
went Dot only to destroy official responsibility, but
to set up a doable Government, the mischief consequent
oil which needed no illustration. To prove the
little harmony which existed between his Lordship
and the Ministry, it was only. necessary to refer to the
answer which they had given to, the Address of the
City of London ; an answer so directly at variance
with the Narrative of Lord Chatham, that it was
plain, though he was on the spot, not one of them had
ventured to question him on the subject. To excuse
the act of his Lordship in presenting the Narrative as
he did, it was said his personal privilege, and his im-
mediate command, entitled him. This he denied.—
It was not true in former times, much less now ; not
in those times when Marlborough 'conquered and.
Godolphin planned. Gentlemen opposite might deny
this ; they might ask for the chapter and verse of the
Constitution, to all which he should only answer,
that the law of the Constitution was its practice since
the Revolution.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL hoped that a hu-
-1 mane and patient attention would be given to a case,
involving, as this did, the character of an individual,
and including such severe penal consequences. He
hoped all would be well grounded 'ere they decided,
Ind do justice even to an absent individual. 'The act
of Lord Chatham was a compound act : in what part
! of it was the violation of the Constitution to be found?
1 In its preparation ; in its presentation ; in its secrecy;
i ( Hear, Hear, Hear)—or in its subsequent publicity ?
For his part, he could not see the peculiar malignity
which was said to mark this transaction ; he could
see much not to applaud ; but he could see no impurity
' of motive, no males animus, which Alone the House 1
I ought to punish. The two charges made were se-
alley and a wish to malign the Navy ; but if he
really had this bad motive, why did he wait from
October, when he might have presented his Narra-
i tive, to January ? Simply, because he only wished
I.
to prepare a defence in case he should be called upon;
this was the ostensible motive, and where a good one
' was to be found, he thoaglat a bad one ought not to be
searched for. But syjiy wns it secret ? It was plain,
from Lord Chathatna subsequent publication )f his
narrative, that the secrecy was only intended to be
temporary, and how could a temporary secrecy hurt
the Navy ? But, in fact, secrecy was necessary,
lest his defence should be anticipated ; this must, in-
deed, have been his only view • for if he was con-
( demised by the House, .and the Navy acquitted, of
what consequence to him would be a secret document
lying in the closet of the Kin ? He was accused by
the House at first killaYing his narrative before the
King, and then of producing it; first of secrecy—then
of publicity ; in such a dilemma no man could escape
some censure. A Nbble Lord opposite (Lord Tern-
ple) had been very Warm in his reprobation of secret -
influence. He confessed he did expect when his Lord-
ship first rose, that the House would receive much
curious information on the subject ; he expected it.
from the hereditary feeling of the Noble Lord—(Hear,`
hear.) This kind of knowledge had gone in the fa-i
mily for some time, even in the reign of Charles'
the Second. It was strange. that a person of this very
name of Temple should have discovered and disclai-
med against this secret influence. The Noble Lord
might recollect, perhaps, a more recent occasion, on
which the family had distinguished themselves in this
curious kind of knowledge—(Hear, Hear, hear!)—
Now, however, the Noble Lord lost his reason, his
recollection, almost his sound senses, ,at the idea that
such influence eve' could exist ; he was in amaze, and `
every cooler reflection Was drowned in passion at
the discovery ! The Gentlemen round him might
perhaps have roused him to this fine-flwving in-
dignation; it was strange, indeed, , that Opposition
always found out this influence, and Afiaisters always.'
denied it—(A loud cheer from the Opposition). He
begged pardon : the late Ministry did not deny it.
—Np, nothing but this vile secret influence could
ever have sent them out of their places—nothing
but it could have deprived the nation of such a con-
stellation of merit, virtue, and talent ! nothing but it,
joined to the cry of the whole country. (Hear, hear.)
There was a Minister, however, who, by continuing
18 years in office, had shewn the world that genuine
talent and unbending virtue could abash, and even
silence this secret influence. He begged pardon for
having dwelt so long on this subject : it was besiie
the question, (4 laugh) but he was drawn into it.—
J.A laugh.) The secret influence (if any) exerted by
,ord Chatham, had been that of a responsible ad-
viser, and not that of a man out of office, as the No-
ble Lord's friend opposite was. He cautioned the
House to deliberate solemnly on this important ques-
tion, and - his own cor-iction of Lord Chat-

.1 deny that the narratitecOntaleed impataskos . tisk a Privy t ouncilitio might attempt to poison the
navy, but he denied that the Nilde Laid was Royal mind, and that if tho§overeige should not be
2. by motives such as those ascribed to him by so Weak as to allow his mind to be poisoned, that the
on-se:able Gentleman. It appeared that the PeitriConncillor should not be responsible for his at-
Lor.: had been sent to execute a service which • ttirpt. F:-:t his part it could scarcely be necessary to'
,::,t se performed. • To obviate the:effects of !"say, that he was not actuated by any feeling hostile
-sire he had, too hastily perhaps, prepared to the Noble Lord. He bad many reasons for enter-
..
~ :Lion, and had presented it to that person raiidsig sentiments with respect to him opposite to
..jination he was most solicitous to preserve. those of hostility. If the charges preferred against
1:•:ird to the secret influence: which it..was as! the Noble Lord had affected his personal and private
hi,' existed during the whole of the present' conduit, however heavily they might have pressed
he could not conceive how. it could be going tt-pon him, lie (Lord Temple) should have bowed
fifty years without any one pointing his finger lies head in silence, and only lamented their existence.
enturing to say
" there is the man." During But the present charge was against the Noble Lord I
~,, Administrations of Lord North and Mr. as a Minister. It was his duty to support it. What
. e
no such discovery was made. He could not he complained of was, that the Noble Lord had not I
re it then to exist. The public had long sin- given advice which might have been cognizable, I
to Lord Bute, that he was the secret adviser of but had reqncsted that it might be kept secret.— i
-own; but it was now a well known historical To the immortal credit of the House of Commons
int so far from being the adviser of the Crown, he spoke it, that advice was rendered . nugatory,
Bute complained of having been neglected by and by, their sense of public duty it had been •
'he present detection indeed was to him a core- brought forward—(4 cry of No, no !) Was it' the '
proof that secret influence had not existed in Noble Lord's own wish that it shoul :1 be brought
ay ii: which it was supposed to exist; for other- forwitid?-4r. es.'.ge eI) If so, dared as he was to
WAS it credible that secret advice should be'de- say, that wLicb be was very reluctant to say, why'
I in twenty days after its communication ? had the Noble Lord stated what he did state in his
user greater than that arising from secret in- . evidence ? Why hid he told the House at thosltar,
:e appeared to him to have threatened the Con- I on one day, that he had presented 'it to his Majesty
ion on the coalition of Lord North and Mr. Fox I at one time, and on another day that he.had Foment-
Indy, the union of all the aristocratical.families :ed it at' another time ? Ai awful claim :had heist',
is country. He would not vote for the previous , made upon the House by the -Learned • Gem:ltem('
dual, neither would he vote for the Honor rable I, opposite—a claim which, he trusted, as Lag its the
alem
All's resolutions ; but he wished that the I British' history ehould endure, would be urged with '
ise w-,iild record on their journals some resolu- i success, when it was urged with justice. He had
which would effectually prevent any pers,on in I urged the House not to visit this offence on Lord
oval or military service of his Majesty, from ap- Chatham because he was the sou of William Earl
chin, his Majesty with a narrative of his conduct of Chatham, and the brother of Mr. Pitt, in the for-
ty- other way than through the medium of the mer of whom the secret influence practised by the
• axei authorities • , Noble. Lord had found its greatest antagonist, and in
r. BROUGHAM explained. the latter of whom the Constitution, vited by the
,ord FOLKSTONE, although he meant to vote Noble Lord, found its warmest defender. In the
the resolutions, yet could not subscribe to all the name of those .illustrious characters he made to the
ions of those by whom the resolutions had been House an appeal contrary to that of the Learned
„eel He believed secret influence to be a r., endemar ;he appealed to them to shew a veneration '
_bear, and he would not therefore vote for the for their memory by an assertion of their principles.
ioliitilns on the ground of secret influence ; nei- Mr. ADAM said, if ever there was a question of
, on the ether hand, could he subscribe to the importance to the well being. of the Country, or. of
ions of those who defended Lord Chatham. Of vital interest to the Constitution, the present was a
N.-ble Lord's motives; he could judge only by question of that nature—a question in the discussion
:oncleet ; and that conduct appeared to him to of which all feeling of party: animosity or favourable i
attributable to the motives ascribed to his Lordship - prepossession might to be relinquished. He felt pain-1
the Henonrable !lover of the Resolutions. An. ed m the part wWch he was called upon to take, as it 1
murable Gentleman had asked, whether there Was hostile to a person whom he had often found, in I
any thing clandestine in Lord Chatham's proced- do intercourse of private life, of most social and ami-
? He, in reply, would ask, whether any thing able disposition, and to whose intelligence and can-
id be, as he conceived, more clandestine than that, dour in business he must bear creditable testimony.—
:ceding ? The Noble Lord left his Narrative and The question was one, however, of paramount im-
iion in the hands of his Majesty for a month ; portance to the country, and as such, must be script
then, for Ins own purposes, reclainis that docu- of all extra considerations. He was much surprised
nt, erases a paragraph of speculation and discussion to hear it asked to-night, in a tone of triumph, by
:rains to a second representation to his Majesty, 3 professional Gentleman, where was the written law
I, when called upon by the House to state the sub- of the Constitution—where was the statute, charter,
ace of that paragraph, declares that he does not or decree by which it was defined ? To this he
miltct even its tendency I For such conduct he• might answer, that there were many principles
ild not conceive the existenceof anybut bad motives. pUrely followed, which were not laid down in wri-
a Noble Lord's crime was in his opinion clear and ting ; the CO7llMOil Law, for instance, was unwrit-
ined. Not acting in his capacity as a confidential ten ; , but he would content himself by replying at
ii•iser of the Crown, but acting in his capacity as once, that' the, Law Of .the Constitution was to be
eGeneral of an army, he had approached his Ma- fonnd in the 'wadies of
.the . Constitution—a prac-
lesty, nil had made a secret military report of his tice of which he. could not help considering the
:onduct. He (Lord F.) did not know that he could' conduct of Lord Chatham a manifest violation, a di-
irodoce my precedent or any statute on the subject,' '
rest infringement on the Constitution, as enjoyed by
nit to those who had a clear idea of the British Cm- our ancestors, and which we did not deserve any longer
itution it could be necessary only to state the trans- to enjoy, it we pasted it over without reprobation.
lion, to shew that it was a gross subversion of that That it was en infringement on the Constitution there
institution, and if permitted to pass unpunished, was little necessity of any learned argument to prove,
it ht lead to consequences of the mostidangerous de- the facts were simple, and the inference direct. Before
:iption. In old times, the existence of a standing he.proceeded to the immediate question, however, he
trmy wae considered as fatal to •the liberties of the 1 could not help alluding to the monstrous doctrine
eople. In modern days that feeling, and the conse- 1 which had been delivered that night by a gentleman
tent practice upon it, had much Mated. Barracks on the floor, (Mr. Bankes.) It had been said by him
td been erected fcr the purpose of keeping thestand- 1 that persons giving improper advice to the Sovereign
ig army from any..connection with the people. Uncles! were not culpable, unless that advice was acted on.
such circumstances, who could calculate the danger ' Where did he get such doctrine ? It was foreign toy
that might arise, if a General were allowed to sepa- every principle of justice, and every maxim of the
-te his militaiy and his civil duty ? A number' of Constitution—foreign to the earliest historical facts,
reign troops were also maintained in this country, to the reigns of Richard the Second and of Edward ;
,the amount, he believed, offonrteen battalions p,- i foreign ladeed to common Toe. If this principle
and the country had lately witnessed the extraordina- , were once laid down, the prpicipal ioqiiiry of our
'spectacle of a German Officer commanding a Bri- ! laws, the intention wouldAseCorne a nullity. On
nli district. If the conduct of the Noble Lord were I what foundation, according to this doctrine, would
, pass unnoticed, who could calculate on the still - the law of treason stand ? Would treason not be con-
greater danger that might arise, if a foreign Gene- ! sidered culpable, unless the very act was compassed,
sal, thus commanding foreign troops, were allowed I and the King destroyed ? It could not, by the
approach his Majesty in a similar manner I Un- 1 same principle which avowed the intentional vio-
der these impressions he should vote for the resolu- I lator of the Constitution innocent, unless the advice
tions of the Hon. Gentleman. svhich he gave was acted on. This was a most
Lord TEMPLE declared, that it had seldomfallen i important question ; and he would beg leave to,
, his lot to hear. a speech so full of most extraordi- dwell on it. Suppose a Peer or a Minister approach-'
nary and unconstitutional doctrine as that of. the led the Throne with a petition to the King to suspend,
Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him. He had ; the Habeas Corpus Act—suppose such advice had ,
lot conceived the possibility that at any time, and I been spurned and rejected by a good Sovereign, and
much less at the present time, such a 'doctrine would., afterwards discovered, (hear, hear,) though an injunction
be broached. The Hon. Gentleman considered . the Iqf secrecy had been issued ; would such advice coming
conduct. of the Noble Lord justified by his right as aI to the kaowledge of that House, pot be loudly repro-
Privy Councillor to Advise his Majesty. He also had : bated, and the adviser punished as he deserved ?
'1 itl that the Cabinet Council was a :Jody unknown' (Hear, hear). As to the immediate question, all the
" the Constitution, and which had ori,rinated in a 1 evidence which he wanted of Lord Chatham's
46guilt,
4 •Certainly it was unknown to tice Constitu- all the evidence to prove an overt act against the Con-
do a, but would the Hon.-Gentleman contend that stitution and freedom of the country, he had—the
1?,! Members of it, called as they were to act in the narrative of his Lordship, and the answer of his Ma-
lang's confidential service, ought not to possess the ; jesty to an Address of the House : these contained
:01)fidence of one another ? Would he contend that : facts in his mind full and conclusive. Why did Lord
those who were to advise his Majesty ought AM 10 i Chatham deliver his narrative to the King, instead of
advise with one another ? Besides, at the time of dse ito the regular person, the Secretary of State ? When
dal in which the Cabinet Council originated. the! he came home indeed, at first, from Walcheren, lie
rrryy Councillors were the Constitutional advisers of i did not find the Ministry settled—in some time, how-1
the King. The cabal was composed of four persons„,ll ever, they were—Lord Mulgrave was at the head of ,
anited on the principle of secrecy to'advise his Ma- I the Admiralty, and the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-. i
lest], without a communication with 'die Cabinet at ' site had, ant of his loyalty, accepted the Premiership
aarge• On that occadost Sir William TetOple recom.i -.44 laugh.) Now, these Ministers, chiefly concerned
ceded George-IL to take the advice- of the.Pairy : in. the planning of the Expedition, had not asked
Cluneil, and to overturn the ,cabal ; yet this•ealsal.. from his. Lordship one single question as to the re-
!Pas adduced by the Hon. Gentleman as a Coestitn- suitOf it, no bad he (as he was directed to do by
°mai jusfification of the Noble Lord's conduct. Her the Sign Manual while he remained in Zealand),_
..,
.adduced that against which the Constitution protest- , made any voluntary statement through the orrice of
Z-4* adduced it as an email& for the House, and the Secretary of State. If this had been the case, the.
-I an nurse far-the Noble Lord. The Hon. Gentle- House would not have heard of the King, 's escrutoire
Inan Was ;of ,• • • that kis lc.. opinion, m unless the advice given to !containing a private document instead of a public pa-
e.dif ' private
of the constitutionality of a

be- ~:aiesty were acted upon, the adviser eisild nnt,'per. As to question we et declared -onvi(
otPluni...'hetl. Against that principle he (Lewd Tem- ; Cabinet—a cabinet, in fact, had always existed.: even ham's innocence, of any
.ma.l.ign.'nt intention.
witclPTk'testrd; he. thanked Gov he could not agree in the earliest periods of our history, in the time oft Mr. PONSONBY said, it seemed to be the general
=Elution. 11nn. Gentjeman in his opinirms of the Con- ; the Plantagenets, the King had acted by advisers.— opinion of the Hon. Gentlemen on the orposlte side
4.,.."11. The Constitution was not regulated by 'An official system had not, it was .true, been then of the House, that the Earl of Chatham stood ac-
40'9Zritten law--it was regulated by practice, and formed, but an official.responsibility existed. There quitted of havinil usid any secret ce. The
g could be more contrary to its practice than was then a President of the Council, Privy Council• questions however, for the consider-4km of the House'
. .

„

Was, whether Lord Chatham had acted unconstlin-
.
tionally or not, and -IA a way mischievous to his Ma-
jesty!s service, and to- the general interests of the
State? The Honourabla Gentleman who sprke last
had said, that he did not stand up to defend the No,
Me Lord ; he confesSed his Lordship had acted im.
properly; it was to be regretted he did not tell
the House what the Noble Lord had done %k rt/Ilft%
—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, too, allowed
that he had acted erroneously ; another Gentleman
said that his conduct was objection tble; and ano-
ther, that it was reprehensible ; but they all ne -
glected to tell the House in what respect his Lorch:
ship had" acted with such imprcriety. His c.ou-
cluct was not right ; it was indefensible ; it was
reprehensible, &c. and why ? &cause it was unfontti-
tional; and it was because they could not find anoth.r
word in the English language, which tivould not
to acknowledge his guilt, that they had made use of
the words they had done. •An Honourable Gentle-
man on the floor (Mr. Bankes) had asked where was
the statute which marked the. conduct of the Noble

Lord as unconstitutional ? Nothing was so distinct as.
the maxim that that which was illegal was unconsti-
tutional. Though the conduct might be strictly un-
constitutional,lcmight not still be illegal, as in the
present case. Lord Chatham, as a Privy Counci11:1:-,
as a Cabinet Minister, and as Commander in Chief,
had certainly a right to an audience with his Sov,!.
reign, but he had not a right to avail himself of his
privilege to place in his Majesty's hands a defence of
his own conduct as Commander in Chief, and there-
fore, as expressed most- properly in the Resolution
proposed by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitbreau)
had acted unconstitutionally. Nobody would attempt
to denrthe 'privilege of a Privy Counsellor, and a
Member of the Cabinet, of having access to the Royal
presence ; it was to the manner in which that privi-
lege was used, in placing secretly in the hands of his
Majesty, without the privity of his colleagues, for a
sinister motive, the narrative alluded to, that Lord
Chatham had acted unconstitutionally, and in di-

rect abuse of the influence his office vested in
him. There was another part of the conduct of
Lord Chatham which was equally erroneous—that
of requesting his Majesty to keep secret the com-
munication made to him ; it was another unconsti-
tutional abuse of the privilege of access to his
Sovereig.' The Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
n Barites) said, in order ta render an act unconstitu-
tiotal, something must have followed, some result
must have taken place. So that no matter how vi-
cious, or how inimical to the interests of the commu-
nity, the advice given might be, something must be
done before any notice could be taken of the circum.
stance. Never, said Mr. Ponsonby, was there any
thing so abominable, or so inconsistent with common
sense ! Supposing there was a captious Parliament,
something like The present.— (a laugh)—And that an
individual thought proper to advise his Majesty to
use his authority, and, like Cromwell, employ his sol-
diery to come down to the House and dissolve the Par-
liament at once ; and that his Majesty, with his known
virtue, had revealed the fact ; was there nothing to
be done to such a man, because, forsooth, his advice
had not been taken, andelothing had been done? The
argument was so evidently fallaPious, that it was
scarcely worth answering. The same Hon. Gentleman
obeserved, that the Constitution was a large volume,
and had gone through a variety of editions, each of
which differed from the former ; he (Mr. Ponsonby)
would, however, advise him to read some other edition
than that from which he had derived so much false. in- _
formation. (A laugh.) It had Been allowed on all
hands, that the conduct of Lord Chatl:am was ob-
jectionable. If this was the case, was there no notice .
to be taken of him, or was his delinquency m pass by
as a mere ordinary transaction, unnoticed and un-
marked by the displeasure of that House ? It was
impossible. Had the immortal Pitt been alive, he
would have been the first to reprehend the conduct of
is brother. The House was called upon to excuse, be-
'pause the noble Lord had acted erroneously, but with no
Malignant intention ; and this was afterwards proved
by his having desired that his defence might be made
'public. What signified the motive? The act was
done, and the House were to consider of that act ab-
stractedly. But even looking at his Lordship in the
'best light, did he present his narrative to the King to
injure himself, or was it to secure the prepossession of
the Royal mind in his favour. (Hear, hear.) If
it was not for the injury of himself, the.motive might
:be well understood. The conduct of the Noble Lord,
bn viewing it both towards his Majesty and at the
ar of that House was most unconstitutional. No-
thing could induce him (Mr. P.) to relinquish that
word • his conduct challenged the severe censure of
that House, and he trusted the House would evince
their own sense of justice by passing such a vote,—
There was no maxim so true as that the safety and in-
dependence of the country deperided on the irresponsi-
bility of the King, and the responsibility of his Mi-
nisters. It was these principles which characterised
the British Monarchy as the best form of Government
extant, and there never was conduct which struck so
forcibly at theroot of these two principles, as the con-
duct of Lord Chatham. He did sot intend to deny
the right of every Minister, if lie saw a bad Admi-
nistration, to inform his Majesty of that c:rctunstance
—it was keeping that communication secret which
would render it unconstitutional. His Majesty, on
receiving the narration of Lord Chatham the second
time, gave it to the Secretary of State to .be •made
public. But why was not this done at first ? Be-
cause Lord Chatham desired it might be kept se-
cret, consequently he had acted in direct violation of
the Constitution, and in opposition to the princi-
ples laid down. It was to the proper exercise of the
Constitution that the Country owed its character, and
stood so superior in the eyes of the rest of the world.
History had given to Great Britain a superiority of
Government over every other country ; it described
it as far from cabal, it gave an air of openness, frank-
ness, and policy to the people, which rendered them
exalted in the eyes of surrounding nations ; and this
they owed tothe freedom and independence coeferred
on them by their Constitution. In this country there
was no smiling in the face and stabbing behind the
back ; all was perfect sincerity ; and if difference of
opinion did exist, it was o; my avowej, and fairly
canvassed in Parliament or elsewhere. ( Hear, hear )
What then would be the consequence, if this act of
Lord Chatham's was passed by with levity, or what
L..;s could we expect hereafter than a repetition of the
same conduct, probably attended by more serious curt-
sequences t Instead of the amble, frank, and honest
. . k. •
•


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