Star.
London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS.

Mr. HUSKISSON presented a Petition from the
Clergy of the Archdeacorry of Chichester against
any further concession to Roman Catholics. •Know-
ing the respectability of many of the Petitioners, and
feeling a respect for them all, he was sorry that he
could not agree in the prayer of the Petitioners. The
Petitioners did not, however, impugn the loyalty of
the Roman Catholics, but only stated that tilty feared
any further concessions would endanger our best Es-
tablishments in Church-and State. He (Mr. Huskis-
son) was convinced such fears were very visionary,
and it was from such conviction that he had uni-
formly given the Roman Catholics his support.—
The Petition was then laid on the table, and 7.:ered
to be printed.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH presented a Petition from

the Rector, ChnrchwarJens, and Inhabitants of :the
Parish of St. Dunstan in the West, on the same sub-
ject. The Hon. Meniber 'added,. that -he entirely
concurred in the player of the Petitioners.—Laid on
the table.

Mr. J. A. WARRE expressed his regret at the
views which the Petitioners had taken (f this great
question. Instead of treating it on the broad basis
of its own merits at the present moment, they had
recourse to exploded doctrines and obsolete opinions.
He did not rise, however, to oppose the Petition.
After some words from Mr. BUTTERWORTH in re-
ply, in which he defended the language of the Peti-
tion, it was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. G. LANE PDX presented a Petition from the
Corporation of Beverley, in Yorkshire, against the,
Roman Catholic Claims.

Mr. LAMBTON did not rise to .oppese.the Peti-
tion, but simply to state the circumstances under'
which it was got up. It by no means'spoke the sen-
timents of the People of 'Beverley,. for the fact was,
there were but twelve persons present at the Meeting
where this Petition was prepared, and eight of these
were Aldermen ; the other four either chamber-men
or chamber-women!—(Laughter)..
Mr. FOX said a few words in explanation, after
which the Petition was laid upon the table.

Sir WILLIAM SCOTT presented a similar Peti-
tion from the University of Oxford.—Laid oa the'
table, and ordered to be printed.

IMITATiON C(*FEE.

Sir R. WILSON wished to ask the Right lion.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it was his
inten-
tion to erforce the penalties against certain indivi-,
duals for selling what was mimed imitation coffee?
Ile had understood that the Hon. Gentleman
had no objection to the repeal of the 4th of Geo. 111.
which went to sanction the penalties in question:—
Under that impression he (Sir It. Wilson) informed
the parties of the fact, and hoped that, by doing so,
he had net led them into an error.
The CHANULLOIL of the EXCHEQUER was
not prepared to give the gallant General any direct
answer on the subject ; and he did mot think it con-
sistent for the gallant General to .have held oat to
the parties any expectation that the penalties vroold
not be enforced.
Sir R. WILSON said he was not conscious of sub-
jecting himself to the animadver,ion of the Right
Hon.Gentlem an, in stating that no prosecutions would
in future take place.

MILITARY EXPENDITURE.

Mr. HUME said, he had k Resolution to submit,
the object of which was, not to pledge the House to
any immediate deduction, hut to sanction the prin-
ciple of progressive economy. The lion. Member
then moved the following Resolutions, which were
seconded by Mt. CRFEVEY:

" 1. Resolved, That it appears by the Official Returns be-
fore this House, that the total Military Establishment of Great
Britain and Ireland fur 1792 (exclusive of the East Indies, and of
the Artillery, Militia, and Marines), consisted of 48,474 men—
namely, 15,919 fix Great Britain, Guernsey, &c. 17,323 in the
Colonies abroad, and 15,232 in Ireland; and that the total Mi-
litary Establishment of Great Britain and Ireland, for 1821 (ex-
clusive of the East Indies, the Artillery, the Militia, and Ma-1
rines), consists of 11,11,4 Officers and men; namely. 27,152 in
Great Britain, Guernsey, &c. of 32,476 in the Colonies abroad, i
and of 20,778 in Ireland.

[The Sd, .7d, and 4th Resolutions, appeared in the Sews of
Saturday].
Lord CA STLEILEAG H thought the proper course
would be for the House now to go into a Committee.
Before the House laid down a general principle, he
conceived his Noble Fiend should be allowed to
state in detail his Estimate for the year, and his rea-'
son in support of it. It would be open to any Gen-
tleman, in the Committee, to propose reduction, and
on the report coming up, the general principle might'
be debated.

Mr. HUME saw no objection to the course he pro-‘
posed, which would be no more than the giving an.
'instruction to the Committee, or declaring the opi-
nion of the llon-se as a guide for the Committee. He
-should therefore persist in putting his Resolution. I
The Resolution, declaring die present force to ex-
ceed that of 1792, by nearly 137,000 men, and set-
ting forth the, increased expense, was then put.
Lord PALMF.RSTQN did not intend now to go
into a detailed answer; e lion. Gentleman's Resta-,
lution, asbetonsidertighpropr4 time for discussing'
the question of reductions would be in the Committee.
He only now desired to point out to the Honourable
Gentleman, that his statement of the force of 1792,
was incorrect ; as in the statement of the numbers
of Militia, he had omitted 19,CW men; as also in;
his statement of our present force, he had greatly
over-rated the number. Ile was not now answering
any arguments of the Honourable Gentleman, but
calling on the House not to sanction inaccurate state
mints of historical events. lle did not intend to im-
pute blame to the Honourable Gentleman, but he
would merely remind him; that a little learning was
a dangerous thing! Before the Honourable Gentle-,
man called on the House to adopt him as their leader,
he shOuld drink deeper, and make himself better an-,
quainted with the subject. But he understood there
had been for some time past a self-constituted. Fi-
nance Committee, sitting on these Estimates, of
which the Honourable Member was Chairman; and,
as the motions were put into hit hand by that Cons.l
mittee, he submitted them to the House. He was
inclined to move for a Betu-rn of the Salaries which
this Committee paid to its Clerks-L—(Alam, move!
from the Opposition).—He might, perhaps, move at
some future opportunity ; at present he would move,
not for a Return of Salaries, but the previous question.
Mr. HUME contended, that his statement of num-
bers was correct. As to his (Mr. Hume's) establish-
ment of Clerks, hir wished to GOD the Noble Lord
conducted his business with as much economy as he
did his, and the Noble Lord's Office would not cost
the Country £60,000 a year. He wished for no
great or rapid reduction; he felt it was not prac-
ticable; but he thought, in justice to the Country,
the House ought to pledge itself to exert all pos-
sible economy.—The House then divided.
For the motion .. - -
Against -

?lizjority against for trution - . —24
• COMMITTEE ON TILE ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord PALMERSTON said, he did not intend to
enter into these E,timates at great length. The ob-
ject of them was to produce reduction ; and that
would he principally found in. the Veteran Corps, to
the amount of 9,C(X) men, on account of the tran-
quillity in India.. This would be a saving of about
£115,000. Other reductions in tb.c. Staff, and in

*land, the Public Departments, and the se
. amounted in the whole to 1:367;e00.
Nee
diminutions in the Army pay of Genera.
06,7
Foreign Half:pay, the In-pensioner; and a-
sioners of Chelsea and Kilmaielmr.; is tibeiku„l"l
' Pensions, the Military Asylum, Ike. atair'ils__
the Finance Committee of 1817, the E.airn.,..7`g
above 12,8,000,000, exclusive of the
missariat, kc. while the Estimates weir-:c
• those of 1817, by C 266,000. Thus dap 11
- Qua,
have done wrong in adopting • the rntemt
Member for Abingdon (Mr. Nlaberl
Estimates of this year to those of '
now lay before the louse the Esti
sent year. They were as follow:
Ordinaries - - -
Cxtraordinat ics -
Commissariat -
Barrack - - -
• 'Training Militia -
Being leis than the Estimateof
mince of 1817, by 1:266,000. '
nourabk Member would see thai
not agreed to his proposition the
because it placed that confidence
which had been fully justified
comparison to the different sums
vice of the last year, the savings
Upon the Ordinaries - - £144,4
o • Retraortlinaries - - Mow
Commissariat - - 74400
Barracks - - - •112400.
'Training - 40,84
Fnr (lathing Irish Yeomanry - tope
Forming the Veteran Rataliwis aoiee,
He was rteady to admit that the last two iterai Ito
not actual reductions, although the,
diminutions of expense. The whole .
compared with the Army Estimates
amounted to 4:707,000. lie did not
saving would be satisfactory to all para.
inky on such subjects could not be expected;
trusted the House would wet:rat Mini. •
everything to procure reduction.
Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume)
confine the expense to the Estimates
they must look to the difference of
of our situation then and now. 11 "e
to keep from dilapidation, more stores
more Colonies to *meet. Iu M,
Islands, the Cape of Good !lope,
Ceylon, and the new Leeward Islam
of men was 15,000. When lie had
lonies, he had mentioned the mot vale
possessions, in commercial and other
•These garrisons were net proportioned
them in the event of a war breaking out.
above 3,200 men more far the old .-
1792; but since that time the Colony
Wales had greatly increased ; there wal
at Van Diemin's Land, and we had
frOntier in. Canada. We had 8000
and the British Islands more than in _
we had new stations in lieligolandaad
The only mode'of sending reliefs on r
was tosend out whole regiments, for:
could be transferred from one regiment
without his consent, so that Great 1
have more non-effectives than the Colonies.
would say that a regiment should
more thin ten years, and, therefore,
have a disposable force above that of
then. It was, therefore, as small as it ,
agreed that regimental establishments
economical as possible; and those of
prevailed, were more economical than
which amounted to 400 men only.
war broke out, the regiments were ,
broken up, and therefore they became
emus mass by blending them together
then combined economy in peace with
rendering our army efficientan case
it would be a saving above the
.000,000. The Life Guards were .
amount compared with the other Cavalry
It was a mistake that the foreek thr
than now ; for in 1792 he believed it
two regiments of Life Guards, and
ments of Foot Guards. The total arm
year wouldbe 1:8,792,(XX) including N'
and Pensions, &c. but the charge for
would be but 1:5,776,0W instead of
talked of by the Hon. Member ,(Mr.
(Lord Palmerston) wondered how lw had
soldiers' pay was not too great, considerb
they were obliged to purchase out
he rather ungracious to reduce that
they had so heroically fought for
•The Noble Lord was then proceelh
the statement made by the Hon. diem
respecting, the Staff of 1802, was erri
he supposed, taken from the succeedi
Mr. HUME said, " Thef are the
cember, 1802."
Lord PALMERSTON.—" Then
ber has attended his parliamentary di
purpose, not to know that the Estimai
cember, 1802, are intended for the St
Mr. HUME observed, that all 1w
lative to that period had been taken
Estimates, and awlied to the same year.
Lord PALMERSTON.—" That only
are all wrong"—(Alaugh).—No man
we should only keep up such a mi
Staff as in 1792. We must have an
in case of a war actually breaking me
reductions had taken place in the
ments, to the amount of 1:80,000 nearl
business was done with much greater
formerly. lie arrogated nothing to
on that score; but that arose from their,
.to it by the House—(Cheer.l).—Gent
' cheer—Weers)—but it arose front M,
down with volumes of motions for at
the Government was forced to furnish
ble manner—(Hear)—and yet,the
lion. Gentlemen wished to tit
the same number of clerks as in 179 -
In list year, £llO,OOO had been rec°r•ed
Public by the exertions of the WI t?',
more than eovered the expense of
agree to the strange proposition of t!
man (Mr. Hume), that a person unjustl:
money for five, ten, or fifteen years,
called on to refund it. Neither cattle'
the pensions:of those who had spent
and blood, and exhausted their (acid"
vita of their country, should be

w
a
a

an
A:6

rio
lVp
Wt)
fur

cat
tht
fat

tu
At
ha

ref
sal,

Imam tif
'elk?) to cothe
f 1817, lie
stimates for the
426A3N1
-1,020. pct
-501,56 g
237,50,
94406
F the Finance
Therefore, tie
at if the heart
other Ili*i ei
in the Gonna..
by the reesq
s voted for .the et,
were AS

Elllnjiimio:tital:ateide.ii.eieiss:it
aalishezinteamogsl6lststilviltbi;;ree:l:7,64ll44.b. . .
411:11
they 'pert in i..
ad
ted
timates 4 last ? t
id not know t, d.. i
in. The Po . I
..
ume) had wished ' a
e stores to . _ t
i Malta, the , • 1
lope, liaurities, ad, k
Islands, the arum i
II
ma valuableof AIN n
other points tit Tim, ti
portioned to Fete • 1
ing out. There
~ it
-old Colonies this i 1 "
:olony of New Soil ta
ere was a nea Colt d
had alsoexteaded at
1000 me* is : •. • 1
in in 1792; bathe, an
tad :lad other tikes II
is oil foreign Ma di
ST for now no vidif PA
regiment to nether Jr
3reat Britain 'roil 'r
he Colonies. Nara at
wld be kept ab : to
efore,_we Could o /a
that of 1794 by ipi sr
ll as it could be. le 311
hermits . shoold lie a 11
se of 650, 'hick NI t'
il than those 011794 • '
sly. Then, erten •di
were obliged to k a
• became a heterop t '
ogether. this row to
ce with theme:Lai 1 • 0
case of ivar Is
the other &I 4 41
to
were of a year
her Cavalry is 1791 be
in that year wale Iri
red it consisted d In
and the fame
of
il army pantile. tl..
ling ti Militiaillilp 1.1
ge tor active mitt
id of the L 1,000,011,
Mr. Herne) which YI/
7 Ile had cornea. Tie
msidering ihe etli4P "11
at
out of it. It anti im
that pay now,
Cl
for their couotty.
__- sit
:eeding to sop,
Member OIL& th
I
is erroneous, sad,.
:ceeding yeas an
11:6
the Estimates d
. 1 of
:henduthe ilreilr . bitrytyso
ti Mates pasted in
ams
he Supplies of/O. no
all his state Meta
Na
taken from the W 4
me year. for
'hat only prow"'
, . ?nal
geThr manna
oe; ii
lu
i e ffiwt
.pt I it: r rbuc
viii :Is rce::dep
0. is
11. .i 1 Icft
theta2l
0 nearly; boicia,ti a;._
renter accuracy.t4 ."`
7,
g to the Govern
. :.lit
m their beiniPti • ii,
--Centlemen fir
!Doecit.t7nt,itriithsec:_loghec.otmcighht:°l:;o2l,tmithibnl7,l:64B.o3o:4:ll.. : bil
~ aflnv;a:uoidaci
war office, wh i tn 2
f it: 'lie now° I Al
of the lion. lid ha,
justly holding . iel
years. should oft tul
could lie ..1,•1! He
spent their bell ref
facokies, ia tbe iai
reduced—i

mtl

He had to remark upon another observation of the
Hos, member opposite. That Hon. Member had doles
incise
• to the Mode of transacting public business at
the Horse Guards ; but he added, that the Illustrious
personage at the head of that establishment had
made it his business. It was certainly true, that the
Illustrious Personage in question had made it the
whole business of his life to direct his personal exer-
tion, and his best understanding, to the good of the
Army which he had the honour to command, and
eau indulged the noblest ambition of the human
!wind—(year, hear).—lt was to the conduct of that
neestrious Personage that the country owed the pre-
lest admirable state of the. Army ; and without that
conduct, not even the bravery or the genius of a Wel-
lington could have led it to succees—Wheers).—The
Noble Lord concluded by moving, " That the land
form of the last year, distinguished into bodies of
$1,468 Regulars and 11,691 M trines (exclusive of
those in the pay of the East India Company), be ce,n-
fotated for the present year."
Colonel DAVIES defied any m In to decide whether
'the statements of the Noble Lord, or Mr. Hume,
woe the most correct ; but he would say, that his
Honourable Friend's statements were substantially
correct. It was his intention to move that the Chair-
man should report progress, and ask leave to sit
again, in order not to impede the public business,'
but to move for a Select Committee to inquire into
these estensive and important details. The Corie-
mittee would have to inquire into what he would
contend were prima facie cases of abuse=, and probe
and sift them to the bottom. How could they get at
an opinion as to the number of men required for par-
ticular garrisons, withent bringing Officers from all
parts of our European dominions. to examine them
at the Bar on those points ? They could not tell the
reductions in :.?..-ious departments, because they had
not the Estimates heime them. He compared the
amount of the Estimates of this year with those of
1819, which shewed an increase of £69,000, and yet
this was called a reduction. The permanent charges
amounted to £149,000 over those el 1819. Was e'iis
not a matter which required inquiry? Every part
Was now studded with Barracks, and in all cases
where the Civil Power used formerly to be employed,
there was now nothing bet calling in the Military.
He coald shew that a considerable reduction might
be made in our Military Establishment without dan-
r to our Coicraits. Would any man say that a stand-
ing army, amounting to nearly 100,000 men, was
necessary in a time of profound peace ? Was this a
time, when the People were bearing their burdens
with unexampled patience, to increase the already
intolerable weight of them? Such an army was
not necessary among a People who took no advan-
tage of the drawing the troops to the Metropolis
during the Queen's investigation—not even in those
which Ministerswere pleased tacallseditious districts.'
He contended that reductions 'might be made in the
number of troops in the Mediterranean, in North
America, the West Indies, St. Helena, &c. In 1789
there were but 18 regiments of Cavalry ; there were
pow 29. Reductions might be made to the amount
of 10,000 men, without injury to the public service.
In the Cavalry there might be a saving made to the
amount of £62,000. He would appeal to any mili-
tary man in the House, whether the Waggon Train
was of any use in the time of peace? Supposing
every Cavalry regiment to move at the rate of 100
miles in a change of stations, the country was at the
expense of £4 a mile. He wished a reduction of 15
battalions to be made in the Regulars, which would
be an amount of saving of £37.5,000 without re-
ducing the Veterans at all. He wished a:so the
wend Majors to be reduced; and, altogetlyyr, his
saving over that of the Noble Lord would amount
to £181,003. He also uishee a greaser nuinLer of
Officers to be put upon half-pay ; but that wherever
a vacancy in the army should occur, it should hi
611 ed up out of Officers on half-pay. He intended
to move an Address to his Majesty, that he would
be pleased to give nu one a commission in his Army
but Officers on half-pay. There was scarcely a de-
partment in the Army where he did not see the pos-
ibility of making salutary reductions. The amount
((salaries in the year 1796, in the office of the Secre-
tary at War, was only, £29,000.. It was now above
£19,000; and he would ask if that did not demand
inquiry? He called on every friend of economy to
vote for the Committee of Inquiry, which he should
propose to be composed partly of those opposite,
those on his side of the House, and those of no party
at all. Thus the Committee would be fairly and
impartially formed. lie then moved " that the
Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to
sit again."
Mr. DAWSON said, that in the -present state of
the country, nothing but the most rigid economy,
and even parsimony, could avail. The sum of
£6,600,000 was much too great for the expenditure
of the Army. It was impossible to go on under such
a system : and economy was in no branch so desira-
ble as in the expenditure of the Army—(Hear, hear).
He must declare that a great reduction might be
made in the Army of Ireland. That country was
now in a state of complete tranquillity, and there,
was every reason to believe that state of tranquillity
would continue; 20,778 men was too great a force
for that country ; as there was a Yeomanry force that,
could preserve the public tranquillity ! If it was said,'
that such a force was to be kept up with a view to a
future war, he must say, that the country was unable
Is go to war; or, in the event of a war, he ousted
de country would rely on its naval force. The Trade
and Agriculture of the Country was in a most dis-
tiessed state, as appeared from the Petitions on the,
table. He had heard with alarm some opinions de-
livered on the subject of the National Debt. One
Honourable Member said, that it was impossible to'
Pay the dividends; another said on that subject that I
od inspossi6de nemo tenetur. This conflict between
Use commercial and the agricultural part of the
countrywas such as ultimately to threaten a civil
war. Though he was not prepared to support the
motion of the Honourable Member, he wished that a
further reduction had been made.
MC. MACDONALD said, that the impression
elide on hii mind by the speech of the Member for
Aberdeen had not been weakened by anything he
had heard from the other side of the House. He was
vete sorry he could not share in the tone of self-gra-
tulatke assumed by the Noble Secretary at War.—
lk hailed with much satisfaction that the Noble Lord
Itierre4 to 1;9'2, as on a former occasion he had
said a refereace might as well be made to the Saxon

Heptarchy. No one had cont'snded that the year
1792 was to be.the standard of the expenditure of
the present year; all that had been said was, that we
should look to that year in the expenses about to
be incurred. On the subject of the Half-pay, not
much was to be said ; but, GOD forbid that faith
should not be kept with those who had spent the
prime of their lives in the service of their country ;
but with this or any other class, faith could only be
kept by a system of strict economy. .He firmly be-
lieved the reduction to the amount stated by the
Member for Abingdon, was perfectly practicable.--
It had been said that the pay of the soldier was
double what it had been in 1792; but the pay of the
soldier should bear a proportion to the wages of the
labouring part of the community ; and the same
proportion did not take place in their wages. The
value of money had, by the measure of the re-
sumption of cash payments, risen twenty per cent.
and he thought that the increase which 'load taken
place on account of the depression of the currency,
should be done away, and a diminution of ten
per cent. might thus take place.—(Hear, hear).—
On the subject of our forces abroad, and in the Colo-
nies, the superiority dour Marine rendered a small
military force necessary. Did the Noble Lord see
no risk from an excessive expenditure? He did not
undervalue the importance of the Colonies; though,
at the same time, he must recollect that they were
free from that load of taxation which pressed so
hard on the mother country. It had been said by a
foreigner, that the moment England got a colony,
she raised it, in point of expense, to the state of an
empire. The expense of the new colonies was now
greater than that of all the colonies before the war.
The force of the garrison of Gibraltar might dis-
pense with any other force in the Mediterranean.—
The remaining class of Estimates was our forces at
home. The force of the country amounted to from
48,000 to 50,000 regular troops, exclusive of the
Yeomanry and the Ve.erans lately called out without
the authority of Parliament. If the system of taunt-
ing the People should be persevered in, not ten times
the actual force would be sufficient to maintain the
tranquillity of the country. If the affair of Man-
chester was meant as an experiment on the patience
of the People, that hid amply succeeded ; a; also if
it was meant to shew what a small military force
I could disperse the largest unarmed multitude !
Amidst all the alarms spread by Ministers and their
adherents, they disbanded the 11,000 men that they
had raised without the least necessity, and then
took the credit of economy—(Hear, hear, hear).—
One point he must allude to, a phenomenon in the
Police of the country unheard of before, that in the
few cases-of mischief against the State, not a spy, hilt
an instigator, in common with the Government, had
been employed, and the Secret Committee of 1817
had declared, that men appointed to discover the plots
of the disaffected had been active instigators. The
recent case of Franklin chewed the extent to which

this system had been carried. But it was not too late

to cure the evils which the conduct of Ministers had
oaused ; and, above all, much could be done by re-
trenchment, especially in Ireland. The Estimates
appeared to be framed with a view to the possibility
at least of resuming military operations on the Conti-
nent. But he must protest against such a possibility.
The expenses of the war had amounted to 1,000 mil-
lions, and after such efforts, the country would, at
least, require a century of repose. He would not
appeal to the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) who, from
his connection with German Diplomatists, was spoiled
a,. a British Politoician—(A laugh). He appealed to
the Gentlemen behind the Noble Lord. His eva-

sions on the subject of economy must have convinced
them that no economy was to be expected from him,
if the Gentlemen behind him did not give the order
foe it. As soon as his Honourable and gallant Friend's
(Colonel Davies) motion should be disposed of, he
would move that there be a further reduction of ten
thousand men. In conclusion, the Honourable Mem-
ber adverted to die state of Ireland, which, he de-

dared, was such as did not require the force at pre.

sent kept up in that country.
Mr. C. GRANT concurred in the opinion that Ire..
land was quite tranquil ; though, only a few months
%back, when he had asserted that Ireland would con-
tinue tranquil, his Hon. Friend had aimed his shafts
at his head, and launched his philippics at him ; but
notwithstanding all the predictions of his Hon. Friend,
he now admitted that Ireland was tranquil. Ile (Mr.
Grant) was as anxious as any man could be, that the
force in Ireland.should be diminished ; but that must
be gradual; and the force this year in Leland was
3000 men less than in the last year. The principle
of reduction was to be maintained ; but that reduction
must be gradual. But the Hon. •Gentleman (Mr.
Illawson) had not pointed out the practicability of a
single reduction. He (Mr. Dawson) should have
stated in whit part of the Military Estab.lisliment a
reduction could take place--(Loud cheering).
Sir H. VIVIAN lamented that in 1792 the country
had not a greater disposable force, as part of the dis-
asters of the first year of the war might have been
avoided. The events passing in Europe made the
keeping up of a considerable force necessary. In the
Cavali y, the reduction should be confined to horses
alone ; and the skeleton regiments ought to be kept
up. The half-pay of many Officers was not more
than the interest of money paid for their commissions.
The Medical Board had been exonerated from all
blame, though he thought the expense of the Opthal-
mic Institution should be contracted.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that a base conspi-
racy had been formed against the character of Sir
W. Adams, though 'he (Mr. Hutchinson) made no
charge against the Medical Board.
Mr. BARHAM observed, that as the Ncble Lord
opposite (Lord -Palmerston) had given notice of his
intention to move for a Committee on the subject of
the Opthalmic Institution, it would be better to re-
serve any observations with respect to it for that
occasion.

Mr. BERNAL rose, amidst loud cries of " Ques-
tion r—He promised not to occupy the House two
minutes; but as many Members had come into the
House since the commencement of the debate, it
was due to the honour of the House, they should be
made acquainted with what was the state of the ques-
tion. The Honourable Gentleman then shortly stated
the original motion, and the amendment upon it,
then betore the House. The object of the amend-
ment was, to appoint a Committee to inquire whether
a further reduction of the militat y istablishmentcould
not be ef&cted.

•Mr. BENNETT could nor 4ote three millions and
a half of money, and 80,000 men,. without discus-,
sion. One thing had been kept out of view, whether;
the country-could pay such a force. Ile was firmly
ofopinion it could not. The Honourable Member
then read the opinion of the Committee of 1817, re-
commending an approximation to the low expendi-
ture of 1792; and in that point of view he should
vote for the reduction of the military force 10,000
men. Should the 1-louse tell Ministers that they would ll
not vote such a force, the Estimates would be reduced ;
and he conceived 15,000 men would be quite sufficient
for Ireland. The proposed reduction could he made
at home, without affecting the Colonies. There were
51,000 Militia, and 31.000 Yeomanry Cavalry, and
8000 Infaatry, and the whole amount of force was
1-68,(X)0 in Great Britain, 100,000 of whom could
be immediately brought into action, and the rest in
a very short space of time. He hoped for the sup-
pot t of the Member for Cork Castle, from what he
had said on a former occasion. He could not see
why a force should be kept up to protect old naval
stores, as the Marines were sufficient for that purpose.
Government had power over 100,000 effective men.
Under these circumstances, he thought any timid
persons might sleep in their beds, without any fear of
being disturbed. If that house would look more on
the People, and less on his Majesty's Ministers--(Near,
hear)—he was sure the Noble Lord (Lord Palmei-
ston) would find means to cut down his E.,tablish-
ments. The countty was poor, and could not pay
for these enormous Establishments. The table was
loaded with Petitions complaining of distress ; and
the question was, would the House of Commons sup-
port, in the only way they could, the Petitions of their
cons.tituents ?—(llrar, heat). ..... _

Lord CASTLEREAGH would first state the mili-
tary grounds on which the. numbers were proposed.
The increase for the old colonies was only 2000 more
than in 1792, and the number for the new colonies
was not objected to. The state of Naples had no-
thing to do with the numbers proposed to be volaed.
The Noble Lord proceeded to comment on the pro-
posed reduction of 10,000, and contended that such
a reduction could not be made consistent with the
public services revived from the army—(Hear, hear).
The 10,000 raised two years ago were now reduced,
and not to be found in the Estimates. The force
now in our Colouies was not more than sufficient for
their protection. The Army at home was not more
than 29,000,and if that number wasnow to be reduced
10,000 more, it would not leave 20;000, a number
not sufficient to make the necessary change with the
Colonies, to say nothing of the safety and security of
ourselves at home. He contended that with the re-
collection of the recent disturbances in various parts,
of the country, to make a redaction of twenty thou-
sand men in one year, and to leave the Executive
with only 20,000 as a disposable. force, would
be to risk Use safety of the Empire—(Hear, hear).
The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had talked loudly
of reduction ; and stated high-sounding numbers as
savings; sometimesE3,ooo,ooo, sometimes£l,ooo,ooo;
but the Hon. Member had not pointed out any specific
brad on which any saving could be made. The
House was now in a Committee, and if the Hon.
Member had any specific reduction to propose, he
had the opportunity, and the Committee could now.
discuss it ; and if the Ho'n. Member could point out,
any way by which a greater saving than that pro-
posed could be made, he (Lord Castlereagh) would
adopt it most zealously. The lion. Member, how-
ever, should recollect, that the saving proposed to
he made was 121,401,000, which would bring the
Estimates within those of 1818, and within 1.36,000
of the Estimate recommended by the Finance Ci m-
mittee in 1817. The Noble Lord then adverted to
what had been said ou the subject of public distress,
and contended that Government had the greatest
anxiety, from personal motives, to relieve, if possible,
that distress ; and he asserted, that as great a reduc-
tion had been made in the expenditure as could be
made consistent with the public serviee; and to hold
out to the people the fallacious hope of saviug suffi-
cient to relieve the people, was to deceive them, and
was what no fair or honest man would assert (Hear,
hear); and wlenever he heard such assertions made,
he would always protest ak,4inst them, as the language
of inflammation, and not of argument. He was ready
to meet Gentlemen in discussion upon principles of
political economy, but he could not admit that making
any saving out of the present expenditure of the
country could be of essential service in relieving pub-
lic distresses—(Hear, hear).
Mr. CALCItAFF replied to the Noble Lord; he
denied that himself, or any of those who sat near
him, made statements intended to delude the People ;
but he was persuaded the Noble Lord must, by his
conduit in supporting on all occasions the burthens
under which the People laboured. He contended
that £145,000 was the extent of the reduction which
had taken place between the Estimates of this and
the last year. He contended that, after a reduction
of 10,000 men, the 20,000 would still be sufficient
for all the purposes here at home, as every Military
Officer agreed that 10,00() men were. sufficient to
relieve the 50,000 men kept in the colonies. Ile
(Mr. Calcraft) would maintain that the happiness,
the comfort, the security, and the tranquillity of
England, must be preferred to the maintenance of
armies, or even of navies, greater than were abso-
lutely necessary. While, however, he advocated, and
most zealously advocated, the cause of economy, he
begged to say that he would be no party to reducing
the pay of private soldiers, or the salaries of clerks
in offices—(Hear, hear, front the Ministerial benches)
—but he wished to see the Right Hon. Gentlemen
on the opposite side curtailed of their enormous
emolument,—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition).—
The Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh), continued Mr.
Calcraft—the Noble Lord turns away from me. The
Noble Lord smiled when I talked of keeping up the
salaries of the Clerks—(Cheers); but he turns off
when I come to the salaries of the Principals—(Cheers ,
and laughter).—lt was an ungrateful topic certainly,
although he did not allude to the Noble Lord's salary,
for he thought, candidly, that -men in his high situa-
tion were not overpaid—(Neae, hear).—The salaries
in which be called for reduction were those to which
additions had been made during the high prices of
provisions, &c.—and perhaps he had been wrong in
using the term " Right Hon. Gentlemen," for there
was not, he believed, any Right Hon. Gentleman in
that situation—((;heers).
Mr. HUSKISSON agreed entirely with the Bon.
Member who had last spoken as to the pay of the

S

Army and the salaries of the Clerks, sind also as to
the qualification which—(Cheers and gietalasighter)—
tbe qualification with which the Hon. Member had
concluded his speech. The savings, however, recom-
mended by the Hon. Member, could not be attempted
consistent with the public safety. The statement of
the Hon. Member, that the saving amounted to only
£140,000,.. was incorrect. The saving in the Army
alone this year was upwards of £700,000. Ile then
adverted to what had been said of the relief to the
Garrisons in the Colonies, and contended, that afer
another 10,000 was taken, as proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman on the other sicte, it would be impossible
to keep the reliefs. He had heard with great iatis-
faction, that there was not the most distant prospect
of this country being called on to repel any attack
from any party. But he could not sit by and hear it
said that this country was not in a situation to repel
force by force. On the contrary, no country on the
face of the earth was in a situation equally capable
lof defending itself, if called on so to do.
Mr. MABERLEY defended the 'statement made
by him on a former night. That statement had been
described by the Noble Lord as a delusion on the
Public : he denied the assertion. The names of those
who supported his motion, showed his statement was
not a delusion;.anctif the Noble Lord would consent
to go into a Committee,'"4 pledged himself to show
that £3,000,000 might be saved by redactions in col.
lecting the Revenue, and in other branches of the ex-
penditure—(Hear, hear).—He had been accused: of
wishing to cut down the allowances made to the of-
ficers and soldiers, and those who bad fought our
battles and suffered in our cause; but he denied the
charge. He was as little inclined as any *fair mild
be to cut down the few comforts these persons en-
joyed. It was not the expense of the Army he com-
plained of, but the sundries attached to the Army.--
He had been called on to point out branches on
which a saving might be made, he would name a
'source of saving ; namely, the Store-keeper's Office,
which was attended with an expense of £55,000 a-
year. He had stated that 12'2,000,000 annually might
be saved, and, if the Noble Lord would grant a
Committee, he would undertake to prove it—(Jienr).
The cries of " Question" now became excessively
loud, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. The
Gallery continued closed from half-past twelve till
three o'clock. During the exclusion of strangers,
several divisions took place, each of which was pre-
ceded by very warm disctissions, and repeated cheer-
ings from both sides of the House. Tie first divi-
sion was on the question of the Chairman's reporting
progress ; the numbers were—
For reporting progress
Against it

95
- - • - 216
Majority - - —l2l
A second division' then touk place on the motion
for Adjournment—
For the motion
Against it

92
- '207
ntjority
Three other divisions followed on similar motions.
On the last the numbers wete—
For the motion - - - - 60
Against it
Majority - 52
At half-past two o'clock a sixth division took place
on the question of the Chairman i eporting progress—
Ayes - - - - -
Noes
Majority - - —67
Seven other divisions took place on the same sub-
ject, of which the following ate the numbers:_
Ayes Noes.
95 11i
92 9.09
62 220
60 212
48 158
45 162
47 164

At three o'clock in the morning, when strangers
were re-admitted into the gallery,_tbe MeMbers of
Opposition were occupying the seals of the supporters
of Ministers, and rice versa. Mr. Hustit was speaking
from . the Ministerial benches, and concluded his
speeds by moving, "that the Act of William and
Mary, fur the disbanding the Army, be then read."
Alter a few words, in opposition, from Mr.
MARTIN, the gallery was again cleared, and a divi-
sion took place on the question, when there appearid,
Ayes 43
Noes
Majority - —lOl
Whilst strangers were excluded from the Gallery
three other divisions took place. The numbers were,
Ayes. Nuts.
40
1-11
38
38 - -
It was now almost half-past four o'clock, and the
candles having been nearly burnt down, lights were ,
ordered; but on the Messengers making their appear-
ance, they were told to withdraw, and Mr.LAAIRTON
raised a question, by moving " that candles be
excluded!" and anuther division took place:
Ayes
Dues 78
Majority for Mr. Lambton's Motion —lOB
A question tending to another division was then
about to take place, when the Ministerial side gave
way, and the CHAIRMAN reported progress, and ob-
tained leave to sit again on Wednesday (to-morrow.)
—Adjourned at a Quarter to Five o'Clock.

PERIODICAL LITERATURE.—If some r. fond ad-
miters of depatled fame" are disposed to undervalue
the more sold and connected literary productions of the preseht
day, surely none will venture to deny our superiority in Periodi-
cal Literature. The present is indeed the age of Newspapers
and of Magazines. Of the former it becomes not 13 to speak ;
but what a 'contrast do the latter present to their predecessors.
Instead of scraps of sentimental poetry and sleepy prose, lee
have now Magazines containing such specimens of composition
as would not disgrace the names of those who bold the highest
.place on the records of literary celebrity, of original poetry bE
much elegance and striking power, and prose of much poriert,
and occasionally of remarkable force and rtchnesi, often convey-
ing the results of acute observation and correct thinking. When
perfectian seemed to be so nearly attained, it would scarcely
have been expected that an attempt at further advance would
be made, This, however, has been done by the Conducts:WSW
The Nero Monti:ly, Illegninc, a publication which now awaits
justly entitled to the same distinction among Magazines that
the koarter.* and Edinburgh sustain among Reviews. Tge
ginal articles, whether of an argumentative, critical, or humneoes
description, are evidently front the pens of no ordinary writers,
and we very sincerely congratulate the Public Orin the chzratter
which this work seems likely to sustain, under the tilreedbn of
Its present distlngUished Editor, Mr. T. Castrasirtt. •
N GO Bastin I—Our Hibernian tiiends have
already "got the entire of one al,ooo in the. present
Lottery; and as the next Drawing is en the.day of
`their tutelar Saint, next. Saturday, perhaps St. Pa-
trick may bless theist with one or more of the bats;
alOOO that must be drawn that day.

.~

i