Star.
London, England, 1821-05-01 00:00:00

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%N. ". •

116 • w
PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.
•
N4O HOUSINF tOMMONS, APRIL SO.
TMs day, pursuant to adjournment, the House met at the
usual hour.
The Marquis of LOIMONDEZIT took the oaths as Member foe
the Borough of Orford.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved a new writ for a Represen-
tative to serve in .Parlignent for the Borough of Luggershall,
in the room of Lord Carhampton, deceased.—Ordered.
Mr. P. MOORE presented a Petition from the Gun and
Pistol Manufacturers of Birmingham, praying that the Minis-
ters might be impeached for various improper proceedings, and
particularly for their conduct towards the Queen.—Ordered to
lie on the table.
On the motion of Mr. B. WILBILA MAX, a new writ was or-
dered for a Representative to serve in Parliament for the
County of Stirling, in the room of Sir Charles Edmondstone,
deceased.
Sir W. LEMON presented a Petition from the Freeholders
of the County of Cornwall, in favour of the Bill for the Reco-
very of Small Debts.—Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. BALFOUR presented a Petition from the Owners and
Occupiers of Land in the County of Orkney, praying for the
repeal of the late Scotch Malt Tax.—Ordered to lie on the table,
and to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. R. SMITH, Mr. CANNING obtained leave
of absence for six weeks.
On the motion of Mr. thasoan, the second reading of the
Assize of Bread Bill was postponed to Monday the 7th May.
Mr. DENISON presented a Petition from the inhabitants
of Godalming, in the County of Surrey, praying for a Revi-
sion of the Criminal Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to

♦ ' .

be printed.
Mr. R. WILLIAMS moved the Order of the Day for the
second reading of the Conway Bridge Bill.—The Bill was read
accordingly, and ordered to be committed.
The Irish Courts of Justice Bill was read a third time and
passed:
On the motion of Mr. Lestruzcvos, the further consideration
of the Report on the Spoiled Stamps Bill was postponed till
Wedneiday neat.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that understanding some anxiety
was felt to know when he would bring on his motion respect-
ing Corrnpt Boroughs, be would certainly bring on his motion
oa Wednesday, the 15th of May.
Mr. C. HUTCIIINSON presented three Petitions from
three individuals belonging to the Court of Common Pleas in
Ireland, praying for compensation for the loss of offices.
The-CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having as-
sented, the Petitions were received and laid on the table.
Caudal DAVIES moved for Returns of the different Sums
paid as gratuities to Commissioners of Customs, since the year
1784 to the present time; and of several Suma received on see-
count of Seizures, &c.—Ordered.
Mr. HUME'rnoved for a Return of the different Establish-
ments of Quarantine in England, Scotland, and Ireland, with
the Names of each, Places, date of Appointments, Salaries of
Officers, &e. from the year 1792 to 1820.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested,
that part of the motion which required the production of the
Names of each, should be limited to those with £lOO a-year
and upwards.—Ordered.
Mr. BENNETT moved for a Return of the Establishments
of Commissioners for auditing the Public Accounts, the amount
of Salaries, period of Appointment, &c. for Great Britain and
Ireland, for the year 1820; the same for the Islands o! Ceylon
and Mauritius ; the same for the West Indies ; and a Return
of the Sums granted to different persons as allowances and gra-
tuities for services in the Colonies.—Ordered.
STEAM ENGINES.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR moved the Order of the Day
for the second reading of the Steam Engine Fur-
axe Bill.
Mr. Alderman WOOD said, that he had received
several communications from the Proprietors of
Mines in Cornwall, objecting to the Bill. They con-
ceived that any malevolent person might take an op;
portunity to annoy his neighbours under the sanction
of the measure now proposed. The Hon. Alderman
then proceeded to state, that it was quite imposiible
such an alteration could be made in the Steam En-
gines in Cornwall as the Bill required, and parties
would every day be liable to vexatious prosecutions.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR contended, in reply, that
the small expense of ten pounds upon each Steam
Engine might remove the nuisance complained of.—
There was an express provision-in the Bill to guard
against malicious prosecutions. He should propose
that three or four months should be allowed to per •
sons to arrange their furnaces, in conformity with
the enactments of the Bill. The measure was not in-
tended to act in any respect against the interest of
-the owners of mines in Cornwafl.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Monday next.
AUDIT OFFICE.
Mr. LUSHINGTON moved the Order of the Day
for the second reading of the Audit Accounts Bill.
Mr. BENNETT suggested the propriety of post-
poning the Motion, on the grounds that sufficient
evidence had not yet been laid before the Committee.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that he had moved the
second reading of the Bill merely with the view of
postponing it. If the Hon. Member wished to move
for any papers, he would not find obstruction from
him (Mr. Lushington); on the contrary, he would
afford him every facility in his power.
Mr. BANKES, in reply to Mr. Bennett, contended
that no material evidence had been withheld.
Mr. D. GILBERT followed on the same side, and
said, that the question, in the first instance, had been
taken up Without any direct communication with
Government, though afterwards the Committee had
received some information from the Heads of Public
Departments.
Mr.HUME wished that the second reading should
be postponed till more satisfactory information was
obtained by the Committee.
Sir H. PAItNELL wished that the business of the
Office should be simplified as much as possible, upon
the plain principle of debtor and creditor.
Mr. DENMAN said, that the most important part
of the business of the Session remained yet to be per-
formed ; and he suggested the propriety of the House
taking those Bills first which were of the greatest
public interest. The Hon. and Learned Member then
entered into some statements, from which it appeared
that for the last six years the number of Bills disposed
of after Easter was 1248. and 190 before Easter.—
He was decidedly opposed to this system of protract-
ingimportant business to a late period of the Session.
He-knew it to be an unquestionable fact, that many
evils, Which might otherwise have been averted, bad
arisen from this system.
Mr.' BENNETT and Mr. LOSHINCTON said each a
'few words, and the Bill was then ordered to be read
a second; time on Tuesday, the Bth of May.
SPOILED STAMPS BILL.
Mr. SUMS presented a Petition from the Law
SiationerS of the Metropolis against the Spoiled
Stamps Bill. They considered that the Bill would
hivethe effect of creating a new Duty. He hoped,
that sufficient time would be allowed, before the se-
cond reading took place, as the subject was one of,
very great importance.
Mr. SCARLETT recommended the eateasion of

the operation of this measure to the eonntry.—The
Petition was then brought up and read.
Mr. BROUGHAM suggested, that as the ten-
dency of this measure was to increase the Revenue,
and as it might thereby be very properly entitled
a Money Bill, it would be proper, therefore, that
some estimate as to the produce should be laid be-
fore the House.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that the Bill was a
measure merely of regulation, and that it could net
deserve to be considered as one of Revenue.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that nothing had been
stated against the propriety of having some estimate
laid before the House as to the probable amount
of, Revenue that would be raised in consequence
of the Bill.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, it would be impossible
to produce anything like an accurate estimate.
Mr. BROUGHAM did not expect an accurate
~estimate, but such an estimate as might be reasonably
expected to be realized.
Mr. GRENFELL and Mr. BERNAL suggested that it
would be proper to defer the Bill until the Report of
the Finance Committee should be made.
Mr. BRIGHT wished that a clause might be in-
troduced, empowering Judges to admit as evidence
documents without a stamp, which ought to have
been stamped, in cases where a reasonable doubt,
might have existed.
Mr. MABERLEY complained that a Bill, which
turned out to be really a Revenue Bill, should have
been introduced and pushed through so many of its
stages under the title of a Spoiled Stamps Duties Bill.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said that the Bill would be
printed, and placed in the hands of Members.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the motion for the House to resolve itself into
a Committee of Supply,
Mr. CREEVEY rose and said, that being persuaded
of the necessity of some reduction being made in the
general expenditure of the country, and finding that
the activity of his Honourable Friend near him had
created a strong sensation in the different Public Offi-
ces, so much so as to call for the issuing of circular
letters, to ascertain if any reductions could be made,
he should feel it his duty to call upon the House to
take some decisive step towards that necessary ob-
ject. He wished that if reduction was to take place,
Government would not select the unfortunate active
class, who perhaps were the most useful members of
their establishment, but begin at the head. He would,
therefore, propose (as all the sums which they had al-
ready voted would tome before them again) certain
Resolutions, the object of which was to pledge the
House to take into its consideration the salaries of
eleven individuals, whom he thought wholly useless,
and whose salaries amounted to £16,000 a-year. This
was a sum which he conceived too large for the ser-
vices they performed, and, therefore, he was anxious
that the House should now pledge itself to a reconsi-
deration of the votes they had already come to in this
respect. The Honourable Member then moved,
" Resolved, That It appears to this House from the Army
Estimates of the present year, that the following provisions
have been made for the annexed Offices in the Civil Depart-
ments of the Army, viz. in the Paymaster's Office' £1,500 per
annum to an Accountant, £1,200 to a Cashier. and £l,OOO to a
Ledger-keeper. In the Office of the Secretary at War, £2,500
per annum to a Deputy Secretary at War, £1,400 to the Erst
Clerk, £1,200 to a Principal Clerk, £l,OOO ditto to a Junior
Clerk, and :CIAO° per annum to a Superintendant of Current
Accounts. In the Comptroller of Accounts Office, £4,000 per
annum to the First Comptroller, and £1,500 per annum each
to two Junior Comptrollers: and that all such provisions have
.been voted Ina Committee of Supply. That this House, never-
theless, is impressed with the deepest conviction, that in the
present state of peace, and at the same time, of universal dis-
tress, this nation ought not, neither is it able, to provide for it..
various and extensive establishments upon the same expensive
scale as formerly; and more especially that this ilouse gill take
into its most serious consideration, the expediency of reducing
the expenses of the Offices herein before referred to, when the
Resolutions respecting the same shall he reported front the Coin-
mittee cf Supply."
The Resolutions were then put from the Chair.
Lord PALMERS'I'ON considered this the most
extraordinary course that ever was taken by any Ho-
noarable Member. The Honourable Gentleman pre-
faced his motion by observing, that circulars were
seat abdut for the purpose of ascertaining where re-
trenchment might take place; and, therefore, because
Government were engaged in retrenchment, that
House ought to interpose. This was the obvious
comment which every man would make upon the
Honourable Gentleman's statement, which, whether
true or not, he would not then examine. But the
Honourable Gentleman called on the House to do
what? To adopt Resolutions respecting facts of
which they could not by possibility have any know-
le Ige— a course which was contrary to all Parlia-
mentary proceedings. Upon what grounds did Par-
liament take any subject into its consideration ? Be-
cause of necessity that subject was not to come before
them again. But for the House to pledge itself to
consider that which would certainly come before it at
a future time, would be only stultifying itself; and
would, in fact, amount to a declaration, that it would
not trust itself to consider a grave matter without
previously stipurating with itself to do so.
Mr. CREEVEY observed, that the Resolutions
called on the House to pledge itself to a serious exa-
mination of the subject, not as the Noble Lord
thought, at a particular time, but when that subject
would regularly come before it. The fact was, that
he did not think Government would make any
saving; or if they did, that they would confine their
measures of retrenchment to inferior clerks. His object
was to compel them to retrench in the higher salaries.
Mr. CHARLES LONG denied positively that
there was any intention whatever on the part of Go-
vernment to disturb the inferior clerks in the enjoy-
ment of- their offices. The explanation of the Won.
Member did not appear to him to have mended his
case. This Resolution was certainly most irregular.
Mr. BENNETT said, that the object of the mo-
tion was to pledge the House to do that which it had
pot done before. He thought that motions of this
description, which developed the character of tha-
House, and which strewed the country what an un-
reformed House was, would be attended by benefit
cial effects.
Mr. HUME said, that the refusal of this motion
would amount to a refusal to consider the subject of
these Resolutions. Had he been consulted, he cer-
tainly would hive advised his Hon. Friend to defer
the Resolutions until the subject regularly came be-
fore the Rouse; but being made, he entreated the
'House, and in particular. t 4 Noble 'Martinis oppo-
site, to consider, that the rejecting of this'lnottcm
would have the ;post injurious effect upon the country.

The Marquis of LOhMONDERRY said, that if
it were necessary to enter into any observations, to
shew the perfect inutility of this motion, the Hon.
Gentleman who just sat down would have saved him
that trouble. The Hon. Member had made it quite'
apparent,'that the House could not, with any degree
of justice to its own character, assent to these Reso-
lutions ; and his argument was the more remarkable,
as it was conveyed in the shape of a rebuke upon his
Hon. Friend near him. Indeed, it appeared to him
(the Noble Marquis), that the absence of a confiden-
tial communication did not deserve such harsh and
unqualified censure. •If the House were to affirm
every motion which, though admitted to be irregular
and preposterous, was yet made in order, as the
framers of it might think, to conciliate the minds of
the country—and he would beg leave to say, that the
country pretty well understood the value of the mo-
tions which those Gentlemen were in the habit of
making—they would be placing their Journals in
disgrace. He should give his vote against the Rem
lutions founded upon the speech of the Honourable
Gentleman.
Mr. HUTCHINSON stated generally his grounds
for supporting the motion.
The House then divided, yid the numbers were:
Ayes - - - 22
Noes 55

Majority against the Resolutions —33
The House then resolved itself into a Committee.
A sum of £23,211 was agreed to for maintaining
the Recruiting Establishment of the East India Com-
pany's Service.
ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE, AT SANDIIURST.

Lord PALMERSTON moved, that a sum not ex-
ceeding £16,91.5 10s. sd. be granted to deft ay the
charge of maintaining the Royal Military College,
Mr. HUNIE said he had a. strong objection to this
vote. He admitted the propriety of giving education
to Officers as. a principle, but he objected to the main-
tenance of a number of young men as candidates for
'military service who never could enter it. The ex-
penses of this College, for five years, amounted to
£115,280. During this time there were 1764 cadets
admitted. By regulation the education of each cadet
was completed in four years ; and every cadet, after
remaining for that interval at the College, was, of
course, deemed fit to enter the service. It would be
found, that out of the 1764. admitted into the Col-
lege for five years, the education of 451 cadets was
completed, and all those, of course, should receive
commissions. Instead of 451, no more than 160
cadets obtained commissions. Looking then at the
expense of the establishment for five years, and the
number who had been commissioned out of it, it
would be found that each of the 160 cadets stood
the country, during their residence at the College,
at £720 10s. each per annum. What he objected to
was, that the country should be burdened with pro-
viding for the education of a number of persons for
military ser‘ ice who never could enter it. The Finance
Committee, in 1817, said in their Report, that if the
number of cadets upon the establishment were to be
provided with commissions, all others must be ex-
cluded ; and, if they were not, it would be cruel to
educate them for the military profession. He also
objected to the grant of the expenditure for main-
taining the staff, which he thought much too great,
for the instruction of cadets, who were in number
something less than 300. The expenditure of this
staff was no less than £6,457. Ile also objected to
having two surgeons for this establishment, as also
to four professors of fortification, six drawing-masters,
and four French teachers. He objected likewise to
the maintenance of five clerks and twenty-four ser-
vants in an establishment professing to give military
education, and where the youth would be trained to
undergo the inconveniences of a military life. Ile
concluded by moving that the sum be reduced to
£9,771, being a reduction of .£7,144.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the Honourable Gen-
tleman (Mr. Hume) saved him the trouble of argu-
ing the expediency of a proper military education, as
the Honourable Gentleman himself admitted it. As
to the point, whether the number of Cadets was
greater than could be provided for in the Service,
the proper way for ascertaining whether this objec-
tion had any fouudation,was, by considering the num-
ber of those who at any one time had been examined,
and not commissioned before another examination
took place. This number never exceeded fourteen—
(Hear, henry.—The Honourable Gentleman said, that
each Cadet who obtained a commission, on an ave-
rage of four years, cost the Public I:720. Since the
first establishment of the College, the number of Ca-
dets admitted was 2,528. Of these, 852 were com-
missioned, and 17 joined the service as volunteers;
143 voluntarily withdrew, and afterwards entered
the Army, making together 1,012; 683 were edu-
cated for the Artillery, and 102 entered the East In-
dia Company's Service, in all 1,797 ; 238 remained
in College, and of the 493, the difference between
2,528 and 2,035, some died, and others retired into
private life, or obtained civil situations. If the Ho-
nourable Gentleman looked to the expenses of simi-
lar Establishments, (those, for instance, of the Ord-
nance and Navy), he would find that there was but a
small difference between them. The Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Hume) did not know whether the
Governor was resident or not. It was rather singu-
lar, that a person who, upon other occasions, dis-
played so much industry, did not take pains to ascer-
tain this point. He who put himself to so much
trouble to find where the good ship H3we was sta-
tioned, and her amount of tonnage, might, one would
have thought, have made inquiry on this subject—
(Hear, hear):—There was no person, even the most
superficially acquainted with Sandhurst College, who
did not know that the Governor constantly resided
there. The expediency of having such an Officer at
all, was another question. It appeared to him abso-
Intel', necessary that there should be some Officer of
rank to whom the young men would naturally look
up with respect. They were at that age which was
most difficult of restraint—too old to be kept to their
duty by the same means as children, and too young
to be influenced by those motives that operated on
men. The money expended would be completely
thrown away without the superintendance of such an
Officer. With respect to the Librarian, it shoUldhbe
considered, that the library contained, besides books,
many valuable plans, for the care of which a proper
person was necessary. The Paymaster kept all the
accounts incident to the expenditure of the College,
and received no more.than the Paymaster of a Regi-
ment, though-his labour was much greater. The ex-
pense of two Surgeons was not for a momencto be

pbt in competition with the health of the Student:.
The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Home) objected to
the number of servants; but if they were
and the necessary degree of cleanliness n, t kept tvi
three Surgeons, in place of two, would ve:y soon t);
found necessary. The Public paid no more than
£5B a-year for the education of each Cadet, and this
expense would gradually become less, from a reduc-
tion of the number of the orphan children of Officers
who had fallen in the field. They only were ad-
mitted gratuitously, and as their number decrease
the expense would decrease.
Colonel DAVIES said, that he had been educated
at the Military College; but he could venture to say,
that the system of education there was not calculated
to fit Officers for actual service. The Cadets had no
access to books, and the greater part of their educa-
tion was lost upon them. The junior department, ,
particularly, was totally unnecessary; yet this depart-
ment was increased, whilst the senior establishment,
which was in fact the only efficient one, was greatljr
diminished. He would increase this latter estabOsh-
ment tenfold. He complained of partiality in the
chcice of the Professors of this Establishment. Re
could-not approve of the mode of education in the
College, and would therefore vote with his Honour-
able Friend.

Sir LOWRIE' COLE observed, that every Gentle-
man who knew the gallant Officer who governed the
Military College, mtvit -acknowledge the great SeN
vices which he had rendered to the country—( I /ear,
hcar).—lle (Sir G. Mut ray) had devoted his mind
to that department, and had introduced great aad
effective improvements into it.
Colonel DAVIES Ai.!mitted the merits of the gallant
Officer alluded to. His objection was not to the in•
dividual, but to the office. Ile felt convinced that
either the iovernor or Lientelinnt-lic,ueencr otTgl:t
be reduced, but he did not state•whichi

Sir LOWRY COLE said, that it
...was net the duty
of the Governor, nor_vould it become'his stition, to
enter into all t 4 mipotedetatkof the establis!imeia:
It would not beome hums for instance, to inquire, on
every occasion, whetherone-boy was to be put into
the black hole, or whether any boy should receive
punishment of a different nature..
Mr. HUME remarked, that the observation jet
made by the gallant Officer (Sin L. Cole), would go
to shew that Sir G. Murray was above his v.i):l—
No, no !)—rlt might. not be necessary for the
Governor to inquire what boy. was to be sent to the
black htAe; but then, where were the Major, the
Captain, and the ten or twelve Serjeants who .were
employed in the establishment ? From ssh it had
been said as to the necessity of keeping up so large
an establishment, it would appear either that the

boys were the worst disposed boys, or else that the
College was the worst managed establi-brnent in
existence. The Honourable Member entered into
calculations to shew that the expense of this establish.
ment was, in 1799, £1,189 ; in 1801 (when it firs(
took the name of a Military College), £3,839; that
since its establishment it had cost the country the
sum of £300,189. The proposed reduction was, in
his opinion, a very moderate one, and he lek be
should desert his duty if he did not take the sensed
the House upon it.
Lord PALMERSTON contended that the selec-
tion of the various masters was made upon the fairest
competition, excited by public 'advertisement. Those
charged with the duty of 'election had no other object
than to secure the individual best qualified.
Colonel DA VI ES said, that abominable as t! is estt
blishment was at present, the addition of the riding.
school would make it still worse.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL avowed, that he had not
got rid of the early prejudice which he entertained
against the practice of bringing up young men, from
an early age, exclusively for the Army. That Eng-
lish boys should be so placed, that they were to see
nothing but a soldier's uniform, or hear no sound
but that of a drum or trumpet, was fit only for a Mi.
litary Government. An establishment of this son
ought, at least, to be confined to the orphans of %
ficers in the Army. He could see no reason why the
education of an Officer should differ from that der
man going into any of the other professions. It WO
never understood that a lawyer or a physician were
taught the elements of their profession so tarly as
fifteen years of age. He could see no necessity for
French teachers at the Military College. There was
no possible connection between the duties of an Of•
ficer and a knowledge of the French tongue. He was
of opinion that the whole Establishment might be
safely reduced.
Lord PALMERSTON contended, that the systeml
of education would be too narrow, if the pupils was
not taught the French language. In the course of lag
war, foreigners were employed in several depot mew
in the Army, which our Officers, if they had bees
properly educated, would be enabled to fill. With
regard to the bolt intended for other professions not
getting a theoretical education till the age of fit tee,
the Noble Lord should recollect, that young men id.
tended for the service entered the Army at a much
earlier age than they did in other professions.
Mr. G. BENNETT was of opinion, that the sr
tem of coercion used towards these Cadets was it
consistent with the liberties of Englishmen. Outs
640, the service gained but eighteen Officers air
nually, at an expense of seven or eight htmdmi
pounds a-year. He was sure the parents of this
young men would have given them a better editor
tion at a less expense. The question was, whether
the country would maintain this establishment at 3
great expense. Government ought to make kat?
ledge a qualification for commissions, and then
parents would take pains to prepare their children fee
obtaining these commissions.
Colonel WOOD ridiculed the idea of education by
parents superseding the Military College, for mg:__
class of the students at this College were those ww
had no parents at all ; they were the children of brave
men who had fallen in the service of their country!,
( Hear, hear).!—Another class was composed of tte
children of Officers now in the Army. The chit/
which these Officers had otherwise to do, would cif'
tainly unfit them from paying that attention to
.114.
education of their children which it required. WO
irneggarcdomniiss
to knowledge
'he
would being acoqnutivalid,ficattitioant fthor bola'
gnereamtfeorr pdairetirof
education.the
shtoo
utilnideecteskoniriti
French, because he might often be under a
of carry ing on communication's With Tereigirer.
gallant Colonel then read the following CAtIACt