Star.
London, England, 1816-04-04 00:00:00

-%7

croak their titatli wise in inn Ta the &termites.
[don ichad etprened.on the first day of the Session,
since the people could not longer be blinded as to the
:intention te Govertirnen to spend the utmost farthing
~.
they could procure from Parliament.
' Lard CAS TLEREAOH was aware how easy it
was to call in question the sincerity of any man upon
the subject of retrenchment, who ventured to oppose
the visionary schethee of the other side of the HMls',
but be was persuaded that no Member would be
de-
terred Irons the exercise of a sound discretion by,*
dispo,itiun, (the display of which had been this night
repeated) to run down every iedividoel who did not
subscribe to some hitherto unhesrd.of plan of ems
nomy. (Near.) He readily admitted that, in the
present times, even small savings became important;
but he was convinced that to abolish the arduous!
Office of the Third Secretary, would he to sacrifice
Administration to a notion of a false economy.—
In view. it would be much more wise, if such a
change were lit and necessary, to transfer the dutlkil
of the Secretary for the Colonies to the Lord Presi-
dent of the Council, or to the Lord Privy Seal, than
to give them to the President of the Board of Coa!
troul ; for the }Luse *mild recollect that the Third
'Secretary was a Minister responsible for advice to the
Crown, while the President of the Board of Controul
was merely the head of a body, and was !no noire re-
sponsible than others with -whom he acted. •To give
these high duties to an irrespossible officer was there-
fore a most clumsy device; and would subvert one of
the fundamental principles of the Constititto,o. It
wIS true that, is the eye of the law, these was but
one Secretary of State ; but for pnblic convenience,
the functions had been divided among three indivi-
duals, each of whom was, most fully employed. The
place had been abolished in 1782, when we hot our
American Colonies 1 but would . any man contend
that our situation now was to be compared with our
situation at that period !? lo point et fact the pub.
lie business, in every Department, had doubled,
thou h it •had been deemed right, of late, to lop
off one of the Under Secretaries. (Hear, hear.)—
It was impossible that a system of more talse eeono•
My could be adopted than that of removing the su-
perintendence of the higher Officers of Government :
it was true, that it only mectianical labour, the mere
signature of names, were considered, perhaps one
Secretary might be sidEtient where two were now
appointed ; but it was necessary that. these places
should be filled by persons of ee; arged minds, capahe
'of comprehensive views of great rneitiures ; and it
was fit that they should not be 'sir perpetually occu.
pied with technical matters, as to prevent•them from
turning their attention to those..extensive improve.
meats that might be made in the general state of the
country. Hitherto this object had been attained ;
and while the present system* wos continued, he
tiOnbted not that men 'competent- to the rftities of
these important stations, and willing to.discharge
them, woold•be found its the-best informed ranks.of
she community.—(Hear, Hear.)--Supposing the
office were abolished, ite believed it would be attend-
. 4 with little or no saving of the public money, since
A giest number-of prisons now filling places would,
be added to the list of pensioners; antthcise who ter
erre-d annuities on thegroundof superanena:ion•oe-
I besides, no economy could be Moro mistaken* than.
the abolitim and re-creation of ofilces on sudden.
emergeocies. All the'greunds laid for the motion
seemed therefore to fail:• a::d it wai extremely unfair
so reason upon general principles from individual
cases,• Mce that of the late Lord:Melville. to whom
reference had besot wide as holding the Secretaryship
for the War Department avid the Presiden:y of the
B •ard of Controul at the stme time. It could not
be denied thatarery few men possessed:Orel:dolts for
business enjoyed by that Nobleman, and therefore
any deducaon in argument from thence was mod
pArticul Ay unfounded. . .
Mr. ROSE cautioned Gentlemen not to be led,
away by the bold assertions made on the Other side.
—(Neari hear).—One Right Honourable Gentleman!
(Mr. Ponsontry) had said that the business !of the
t.sree Secretaries of State was now.much less than at
the period when we possessed our American Colonies;
but he (Mr: Rose) had a distinct beliet that such was
by no means the fact. He wished to address a few
words more, especially to the Right Hodourabk
Gentleman opposite ( Mr. Tieruty), who had told
the House, that when he was Treasurer of the. Navy
he had never been employed two hours in the day.
He (Mr. Rose) should have been Much surprised if!
the Right Honourable Gentleman could have found
any thing to occupy him fee a'quarter of an hour in
the day ; for he had left behind him no trace ot the !
dischargoof any of the duties of Treasurer ot the!
Navy but the signature of his name, four times a.
year, to the receiptfor his salary.—(Near, hear, and
laogrimer J.-4701 might the Right Honottrairle,Gen.
dense') suinstin that that place was a. binectire, and
. one man would. be pethetly competent to the did.
.charge of the duties of two, three. four. or five such
places......Vhar, hear).—He (Mr. dose) begged to
inform the Honig; that in his bands the business of
the office had been very different.—(Hear, dear, and
arstionvai latrikr).—Se' laborious was it, that when
Ise: retired into the. country, be protested that he was
tinder the necessity ts( occupyiug many hours of the
dap in the discharge of his accumulated duties.—
Wier* Aters /Am 01144—He declired again that
.this was- the fief; and if any Holiourablc Gentle-
makdeobaed it he Mod wing to do but to make
byperiet of the Paymaster, Who would.prose that ot
We years the' reasurership of. the Navy, had become
p most aiduous.simstian;—(Heer, Afar), .
J. FOLKESTONE was old.fashioned enough
lei think thatotOnie weight was due to an Act. of Par-
liament which Ministers seemed. to set at. nought:
`while Mr, Burke's Bad continued on the statute book,l
the Wee ot third Secrostytimal be:illegal, and thosel
whcfAiloported the-continuance of that-place would I
do sired to bring a measure to repeaFin Act which !
they were notoriously coetravening.\ In 1782 the
Orme was suppressed; in' 179*it was, revived as me,
SeCretai.yehip for War, ite ati'focetes-COnteading that.
Mr.'But la% Bill was onlpititetleil agairist-theSecre-
tasyship for the'Cololites. lit • prairie of time some
of the dutiiieof.the hpme d t being given it'
the Secretaserfer Foreign A Oft, a part of the best-
ow of 'the Calcifies devolved upon the Secretary of '
War, and he'searcaffedletMetary for• War and Cola'
tries: 'Now piece war 4.tured; of course all his wax
teactitMa well Aram end. audit lies admitted that he
Obeli new ugly be galled &simony for 'tite Colonies]l
'eV that it add not be denied that it was in direct op.

)

'petition to tie' till of Mr. sterik width cleaned
that the place should thereafter be smelly 64 abolished.
suppressed, and taken a way." -:( Hare defies)—The
next clause provided, that if it *boom ever afterWarda
be revived, it should he deemed a new office; and
the Ministers were conseqiiently in the dilemnatthat '
nn person could be appointed to it, and at the same
time be a Member of the Hem of Commons. This
sort of perielty was deemed a sufficient security
against the rene.val of the office. As to the tithe when
this motion was made, it was imprissible that any.
could be chosen when the language of the preamble
of the Act of 1782 would more strongly apply : it
was pared ci* from a desire on the part of his-Majesty
to relieve his pen*. and. to discharge the debt on the
Civil List witheut new burdens, as well as to intro.
duce,a bet;er system of economy than had hitherto
prevailed, and to .secure more effectually the freedom
and independence or Parliament." For all these tea.
eons.the efts.: of third Secretary bad been abolished ;
and which of them at the present moment would nut
applp with en,thie force P e( Thar, hair.) -
Mr. TIERNEY, in reelyine, said that he wished
in the Frst place to aearess a few words to * Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rem), who bad been
moved•to great wrath by what he (Mr. Tierney) had
said regardine the insignificant duties of the Tree.
surer of the Navy. That it was in truth a sinecure
he was warranted in asserting, by the often-mentiohect
Tepees aaf Sr; Vrancis airing ; althnuph it was equally
true that other duties, not connected with that place.
did devolve upon the person tilling it, for which ez,
matt-ens business the salary was not nominally but
actually paid. " The Right litneurahle Gentlemen
(continued Mr. Tierney) asserts with his usu3l Telles
mence, that the only trace I left behind me, when I
filled thaeplace, of the execution of any business, was
the signature of my name four times a-year • for my
salary. Now, the fact, unluckily for me, is, that I
only received the salary for three quarters.—(Hear.
hear, hear!) At that time I was a pour man, and a
poor man I continue to be; and I might have some
excuse for receiving the money, even were it true
that I did nothing to earn it. But what is the situ.
ation of the Right Honourable Gentleman P.—.
What excuse has he to oiler ?—(Hear, hear)—he that
is burthened with emoluments taken out ot the public
purse—(Rear, hear)—the calculation of the amount
ot whose sinecures is the most difficult duty he has to
discharge—(bran hear) --who makes a boast that they
are se numeroue that even Isis retirement in the
cnuetry is breken in upon by correspondence regard.
ing them—(Hear, hear.) Surely it is a little too
much that the li. gilt Hen. Gentkmae should not
only hehiall these place, but should boast of them
in the face of the Commons of England, who anon ally
vote the money. fee his I:my:mot( ? (Hear, hear.) Let
me Aids him if he is not Cleric to the other Horse ot .
'Parliament?--a place that his cl-e.ldren hnld in rever-
sion leLer him-state the emoluments he derives from
that I e-e(Harte,- heai.4 Let once ask him if he.does not
hold anothetkeiettere.in. the Cease. of Common Pleas,
and• let hint *state the emoluments of that ! —(Hear.)
Let me askeltith if beiit not possessed of a third sine-
cure itt the.'ltecord Officet and, after he has esti-
• mated Ill'eloaltsa :ofnitese, and all' the others he has
obtained; ler himetwit me with hitting, signed my
.1 name for th0e.4.10.6r., salary while I beepetied to be
Treaserer ofehe Navy--;(senfinsed cheer from di rider.)
!la asserts that I dad no good .in the (Alice ; let him
l ask the clerks how I conducted mytelf."—(Load
:re.? of Hear I ;bor.! Hear!) - . ..
Mr. HOLTBLON, while the. H"use was in great
confusion, rose to splak to order.—" .1 cannot help
thinking that, this attack upOn the Right. Henonrahle
• Gentleman is irreleiart to the7question in debate."...
Walk kneeler gad cortfaiion.)",.. * -. . • •. .•
Mr. METHUEN tow, but again took. his sear,
the Plet'istebeintain a state of great disorder. (gee&
of H anbtoreelfetheet, Chair, &c.) ' • .
• I'he,SPEkKER, as soon at-re-der was .restored,
said—". It does nor appear to me that the Linnotirehle
Member has alleged any thing to shew that the Right
Hon. Gentlethan (Mr. Tierney) was out of ceder..
(War. honer.) -" Therefore, I point to that• Right irlo.
nouranlageetlenian'eo proceed." (Laud :Amine.).
Mr. .I.4EtNger..A. i Avill admit, it lie . pleases,
-that what Iliad been saying (in use the Honourable
Member": awn word) was irrelewi,sat to the question,
(hear, and laughter), thougli he was unable to shew it;
meditating' so tong and so deeply upon the doctrine'
of order before he rose. he lust the opportunity -of:
correcting me. But to proceed to the Right Hone
'gentleman. Hedeclates that I was a most negli.
gent, end thatete is a most active mad etliCient,Tree.
surer of the Navy.. As 'to inyseit, that may be *
point not easily tattled here ; but I. confidently re.
ter to ever, Clerk in the Oace, to say *ether ;hic
business WAS ever better One than when I was at.
[the head of it ? (Load cries of War, hear,. liar.)..._
1 do not praise myself, but the credit was due to the
Paymaster;. for to .me the piece 'Was to all ..inientli '
and perprees, a sinecure. 1 allow that it would note.
be very difficelt to make it otherwise by hart:isiog AL
the clerks, and interfering in matters with which the •
Treasurer his no conceta ; and that I believe is the
fiict with the Right Honourable gentlimane.e(Heaie
hiar.) —I ttncletstand diet he Iris introduced +tome re:
gsbitiona orieitieting, nn donee in a good motive,
'lsiah have giver a great deal of trouble, and done
no good, and (slily chewed a certain degree of rest.
4essatese efesylaich. I confess, rdo not envy the pre,
atesstir—(Year, hear).—l state, -that al fir es related. •
-to that office, I was perfectly idle, whatever May be
the fact eitli:the Right Honourable. Gentleman.; I
..
made no ostentatious display of minutes, lest the .
place should be deemed, as it was in fact, a sinecure ;
• though I do recnllect a new regulation which I intro.
diced, "in cimcert With the 'Paymaster, from which
important benefits did result. 'lf the Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman• will but giiitme credit for
being idle, I will give him cred4 for doing hii ut-
most to ferret out employments." (Rear, and laughter).
Mr. Tierney Siete proceeded. to notice the arguments
in opposition talus inctitione Which wire rather to bee
called bold asitertioul, fronitielievinn which the Right
H leiurable Gentleman (Mr. Rose). had wisely car.
tions! the an use. He contended that this was the.
opportunity for giving a practical answer to that part
ot the speech of the Prince tegent which held out a
proMise of concurrence iti economical amngements,
Parliament not having, yet saved the-people a sing/e
halfpenny, every retrench/et:lt being compelled by
what the Dibble Lord celled the claimer bt 'hemp/ea,
He' letitentsd ,that -ad 'iletieurable Weibel (Me.
Beelses) had net stood forward to carry into effect

0

•