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London, England, 1829-03-19 00:00:00

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NUMBNit

r 5,121.1

r, MARCH 19, 184.

PRICS SEVIINPENCN.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

itituter Stow, Sir, I could refer to a grist number of
the Right Hon. Mover's speeches in former debates in,
which, as it appears to me, he gave the most satistat-1
tory answer to this question. I can also refer to the
Words of a very high authority, the colleague of the
Right Honourable Mover. and who now holds the
highest digit, in this country—l refer to the present
Lard Chancellor. When the Noble Lord was in this
House, and the question was under discussion, he an-
swered 41 similar question, and I shall refer to his own
words fnr the manner in which he answered it. I he.
line. Sig, that nobody who was present at the debate
which took place in March.lB27, on this question will
tail to. recollect the speech of the present Lord Chance:-
Iw, and the collisioa which took place between him and
a Right Honourable Gentleman now no more. In the
coarse of that speech Lord Lyndhurst said—"l am
abed, if I object to the measure proposed, what sub-
-4111111111 I am prepared to propose? But I do not know,
, that I am required to give any answer to such a
ion."—This was the observation of Lord Lynd.
la the debate of 1827 he continue J-41 My sm
&ergo* is, thit I Um not a Minister. •/ am tut
Member of his Mairnty's Geverneseet. I eta not a
Meister of the,cneetry ; and it would he idle,lind ewes
mischievous for me. therefore, to say what measures,
in my private opinion, ought to be adopte.o." Sir, fol.
lowing this high authority, enforced on Cos partictegar
eigasiomby the good seose of the ob,ervatioa, I think
icwould be highly unbecoming in me to broach any
rejects, or to sport any hypothesis. as to what I:think
ought to be done, but which, unconnected as lam with
his Majesty's Government, I have no me ins of enforcing.
I think that by indulging in any .observations (spline-
tory-ot my own opinions as to what should be done, I
should unnecessarily and unprofitably occupy the time
of the House; and if I were followed be others, I think
we should only be deviating from the real question on
which this debate hinges. If I am asked, then, what
measure I propose to substitute for the concession of
political power to the Roman Catholics, in order to
allay existing animosities, and to preserve tranquillity
in Ireland, I refer to the speech of Lord Lyndhurst.—
The Noble Lord said, when the question.was put to
him—'s I will answer that questi-n by asking another;
I will ask. what aie the securities which. the Roman
Catholics propose to concede to us for the concessions
we are called upon to grant to them?" Those were the
sentiments of Lord Lyndhurst in 1827. He then
thought specific securities necessary; but since he left
•this House he does not seem to set the same value on
weerities-as he did when this speech was made. Befode
taking leave of it, I really wish that Honourable.Gen•
ttrmen would take the trouble of. referring to this
speech, (or it contains some very curious matter, and
gins rise to many consideration... There is another
point, Sir, on which I with to put a question. Ond to
make an observation. The question I a WI to ask is, whe-
ther his Maj sty's Ministers see the clarion sundae( on
this question in a different light now (tom what they did
last year an h in the sear before the last? It they do not see
use dangers 9f the question in a different light, then I have
a right to ask whether they think that the present mea-
sure gives, or that they are now in possession of, greater
facilities-for meeting and obviating those dangers and
*difficulties than they were. during the last year, and in
the year preceding it? I beg to direct,the especial at-
tention of the Right Honourable Mover to this clues.
tion. Either the dangers of resisting those concessions
are the same as they were 144 year, or they are
greater. It the dangers are the same, the answer
to the proposed measure is the same which' the
Right Honourable Gentleman made in former sears
when this question was discussed. That answer was sa-
tisfactory to me, and appeared so to the House, and
there is no.occesion for ins to adopt a different course
from that, which the Right HonourableGentleman then
pointed out seusr.d)urperliaps it will be said the dal,.
ger is now greateprbut I say. Sir, that lithe dangei i.
loci eased,. it riser in? to die supineness °t
-'his Majesty's
Governmeet ..forlbeito neglekt of what was going for-
ward,. And to their unparaheled, unaccountable, and
still unexplained disregard. w 'that monstrous power
which had as isen in belated:4nd was ssiel4,l by the
unconstitutional body known as tae Catholic Associa.
tion—(Cheers). It has been asked at different times,
but. it never has been answered, why this ia.posthume,
if I may he allowed so to call it, was allow e.l to grow
up under the epee eh the liish Government, whilst they
cook no steps Tolsee)an end to it ? It is true that Ms.
nisters denounced man..hard.words, but, they allowed it
to arrive to vigour and maturity by their own supine.
areas and inaction, and by the consequences of that 5.,-
Fineness and inaction therm: now woven to comelar.
ward with the measure before the House—(Hear).—
rbe Bight Honourable Mover has distinctly stated
r.9et he did not come forward to propose this measose,
ver his own option. He does not propose it as a men-
ktog Of eight. or of liberality, or of justice to the Roman
catkelics. but merely as a choice of difficitltie.—(Hear.
teat.; He dreads. lest the dangers which. may arise
jsciin sesisting the demands of the Roman Catholics
greater than those which. he admits, he is ap-
reftensive will arise from granting those demands.—
Tql. is the argument of the Right Hon. Gent:email,
ari4it isimpossible. therefore, I think, to contend that
*season aow.bntore the House is not a measure of
ingesidation. It is a measure of intimidation, So, and
nOtbieg.elok--(Hear, hear). That power which his
bOexiso long.at.work in Ireland undermining his Ma-
' *jetty's Government has at length triumphed by extort-
, ang this measure from the fears of his Majesty's Minis-
' rs., The Noble Duke at-the head of the Administra-
tion has been greatly-praised and magnified during
those discussioste, and, inmy opinion, there is no man
-who deserves more to be praised and magnified for
Many signal and splendid public services. But as to
the measure now proposed.—be it for evil, or be it for
good—and in my conscience I believe it will be attend-
ed witbAbs most fatal esmequences; it is not the mea•
sure of the Noble Date's it is, in point of fact, the
aseasute of the Member fur Clare. Be his the honour,
or be his ths• blows far to him, and not to the Noble
Duke at she heed of his Majesty's Government, is this
measure owing. When the triumph of the Catholic As.
SOCiatian celebrated, as it-will be, no doubt, when the
measure now before Pasliallsrot is passed, the Noble
puke at the bead of the Ministry will perform only a
WWI part in the pageant. The Member for Clan, the
great hero of the Association, must act the first part,
and what place will belch for the Noble Duke? • Like
the calliope of Marius in his triumph, it May be said,
Naas maps Iwo mew secendo—(Chows).
Amon& the Prima on ear mixed coustituuos, Sir, it

There are a great variety of means by which seats call
be obtained. Now, in England I think it is not too
much to say that cut of the boroughs and towns forty
or fifty seats might be expected to get into the hands of
Roman Catholics. From England mid Irelard, then,
we have 100 Roma. Catholic Members. As to Scot.
lan.l, I believe less would be done by the Roman Catho•
tics in that country, for the Unman Catholic religion is
neither prevalei.t nor powerful t ere. When speaking
of Scotland, however, I cannot pass it by without ob-
serving that, by theiproposed measure. we bre ik r ne a f
the leading articles of* Treaty clamed into by us with
that kingdom alien it was an independent nation—
(lleat). Be this meanie we age violating a sacred
article the Union. And this is done for tt.e pi.rpose
.4 laying every thing at the feet of the Cathi‘lic Assn.
clausal. We Kill suppose, then, Sir, that there ale. a
handled Roman Catholic Members in this Hi .u,e. 814
is this all that is to be dieedadY In any question con.
cerning the Church Establishment. will the Roman Ca.
chokes have no support Itodi the Dissenters? e the
D•sseatery so much compacted with the Church E ea-.
*Airbuses* that they a illunite to support it a' rs.k • ?
The. Mute !Iris .314 t , (A' to . hear id mind the tone uf„
many oftheVAitiOds lately presented IriusiCotestant•
pithesiters, Ind the arguments wish whiCh they' were
followed up.'• Those and.the st eeches made'
its support of them. were pregnant with instances if the
.feelings of the Dissenters against the Church Etta- '
-blishruent. At the Dissenters do Ink partake of ti.e
tpii 4E41 benefits of the Edahlishmesit, if there are to
be.r,o civil dftqaalificatiuris attached to religious
nions; it is not unreasonable to expect that they may en.
cocain a great desire. if not to runs the Church Boa:
blishmeut, at all events to be ex..nera.ed front the tea
pence and charge of maintaining it—(He4r). We 4.rra
heard opinions in this House, -and recently toe. tothiel
effect; It lids been repeatedly said that. the Church .
Establishment it tocilarge, and that by • !educing it tir -
its primitive poverty it would also be restored to
mitive purity. How tat-this doctrine is received is this
Housel 'do not take tiOari•myselt to say, but the doctrine
has been extensively prniptgated, and been promulgated
by many popolsr wrifeta,whose woe ks ate much read
amongst certain classes. Itt has been fairly and Candidly
stated by some writers,that they supposed thi. measure•
because they thought it would lead to subs ersion
of t e Protestant Establishment, and not. as is erro-
neously conceived, as I think, by sonic ilouour,ble
Members, that it would strengthen the Establishment.
How any one can suppose that the proposed n ea-
sure can confer advantage on the Established Church
is mole, Sir, than I can concefte, and I shall not attempt
to argue on it. I, chill the last time that she lush
Protestant Church came under discussion in this -House was in
1824, and a distinct motierawas then ramie toe the diminution of
its revenues. On that motion it was distinctly laid down as ;-
principle, that the revenues of the Church were liable to be applied
to the exigencies of the State, and upon a division boo Member's'
voted for the motion. Now, Sir, if the Catholics, the D.esentere,
sod the other toes of the Established Church, were in coadn..aits.it
and marshalled is array against the Print-want
anent, fur bow rany apes would the COldest. het ? In/ 1.1.111.441,
k would only he the siertile of a an/le Scwion. N..w, slr;
what is there which would prevent the Rumen CathoSes from dont
this? 1 have no doubt that they would chnieuetate to of t-in ei.y
object which they conceived mould promote their own rouge. 11.
They would sit at one side or another, as incliultswa I. d thew ; but
when any question relating to their religion was Waugh( forwer.l
they would be found a united body, and, being united. they would •
become mote powerful than as a numerical body. 1 do not Balk ut
hundreds, Sit, but 1 have teen long enough be this neatens know
how powerful bodies of twenty, and even of ten. Milldam are
when united. When led Ly an able man small bodies of this desei ips
Gun are oaten powerful in hiding the means of forcing themselves •
into power, and carrying into effect their own views—(a-Lat.-hear).
The Revolution of 15b8, Sir, has been ()hell referral to, and the
arguments on that subject have excited something of imveity.—
Much has been said of King William and his comminute, and 1
have heard, with surprise, the strange distinctions made between
the intentions and.acts of those who took a part in bringing about
that great event known as the Revolution. It has been said that
all that was done by King William was to settle it that the person
• wearing the Crown should be Ai Protestant ; arid therefore it is
said that the Crown being Protestant was all that King %Vil
and his councillors laboured for; or cared at out. Now, the face
happens to be true, though the &creme is false. The only sep-
ta:Wu made by King William, Was concerning person to wear the
Crown, because that was sU that was then necessary. King
William could not have doneinore than was dune before to racoon
Catholics from political power, and from all offices in the
When it is said, therefore, that King William did not make shine
exclusive laws, I admit the tact ; but then, I say, no more .;ad
King Wi ham and his councillute make Magna Charta. The Laws
excluding Papist. from power were made before King Wialiant's
time : they were sufficient, and he left them as be found then,
Dora auy human bring suppose that one of the first acts of R .m.ts
Catholic Member. ot Parliament, when once admitted Iwo pew Cr,
woad nut be to seek do- isuo.ediara eetabliehment knel aggr.4.4inta
ment of their own chords at the expense of that lion esrsisli Ind cy
the Constitution? Nutwithstanding all the broad :lid sweeping a.-
. Denims that have been made rat the contetry, I must cottnaue to
think that such were the opinions of King William and !meowed-
tors. I would entreat the Howe to look at the temper of that

has loot been a question whether, in a constitotion like
oars, it is tafer to depend on a Protestant cabinet under
a Popish King, or on a King who professes the Protes-
tant faith and a Popish ciabinet? nod coosidesing the
situation of this count, y.thecircumstances under which
la 0010ernment is necessarily placed in these tines. and 1
Fhe desire of irresponsibility which it has- beer found
convenient and necessary to attach to the person who
wears the clown. I•don't hesitate to state, that in my
opinion stropi.h King and a P. otestant cabinet would
be safer for the coontty than a Piniestant I{mg stir-
rounded by Popish Ministers—(Hear)—as the business
of Goernment is now administered, a I ihe acts of the
Croweare dime upon the impossibility of t' e Nimisters
doe day, whoever they happen to he. It would be
ao mush easier then for a Popish Minis ry to corotoul
the ealiduet and even the conscience ad Soo,creign than
for a SoVeLeign to controul the measures ifl_tis Ministers,
that 1 sisillid greatly prefer having a Papist near the
Ceovin to having a Protestant King surrounded ty
P. ' it ocillors. I ciwasioose
err
isretipliatrp.orwciusli.sisassyrrow,abtalt
ith
sitotd have set, by coast& 'Ow, tumefy. what. :tie,
the. dangers vibitb I think are really so b: apprehended
Non the meanie now profit:me ) aid stale fairly aril
without exaggeration what, as it appears to me, will be
the natural, and, I might say, the incest ebie come-
pence, of this measure. With the ret roirbion of the
Houle
.I will refer-to what has been said in former de-
bates on similar measures as to the dangers to he apple-
headed, merely because the dangers are expressed in
terms much cicalas and mote f.scible, as well, perhaps,
as more correct, than could come from it yselt. lii the
memorable debate of Ib27.allusions were mid( to the
propriety of admitting Roman Catholics to se- is in Pat-
Wiliest. This is the point .which has been relied on as
conveying political power to the Roman Catholics.- In
their admission to seats in Parliament, cousiste that po.
litical power which is given them by the measure now
before the House—(dear). • Now, Sir, I have arrays
stated, and I am ready to state it again, that the only
Vona I object to is the admission of Roman Catholics to
Parliament. I am ready to grant them every thing else
demanded tor them. But the ash ocates for the Roman
Catholics insist on this concession; and when I Vund it
was.a sine qaa nos with Mr. Canning, I found myself
obliged to leavehisthand I have since constaitly opposed
all nieasnres of concession, because it was Repeatedly
stated that the Roman Catholics would never lest
satisfied until this, to my mind, most objectionable
concessionbateiithe year was granted
snv
Ito them. Nov, Si., iii the di.
the admission of itomast Catho-
lic, into Parliament was objected to on the ground
" that the effect would be to bring the CAI) lic and
Protestant Churches into collisto, finally to the de-
suuration of the latter, and that the confusion amd dis-
order which: would prevail for age. whilst the snuggle
was going on, would be a greater evil even than the
event itself." Now, Syr, I agiee in- every part i f this
representation but one ; the confusion and disorder
Consequent on the overthrow if the Protestant C etch
*Might last for ages; but I do Lot believe that the eon
'ten would be a very protracted one. I 'think the march
of events would be much m as rapid this the spe.ker
wh,,,e winds I have quoteJ •eeined to aliticipate. Ido
not say that the event *Sic!' lie piedicteJ %sold occur
within so short a peiiod as rrmains to me of lif ; but
the Right Hoo. mover, pet haps, may live to see the
consequences of the measure. He ha., I sincerely
hope, a long and a happy lite betoie Lim. According
to the course cf nature he may yet look torward to
many years, and I do believe that the danger to be sp-
prehendel from this rn•asure—the overthrow of the
Es•ablished Church—will happen to t in ages hence,
but in the time of the Right Hon. Gentleman and r f
11l inr others who now hear me. Tha t e overthrow
cf the Established Church will be the ultimate effect of
this ifteasure I have no douht. I think kit as char a.,
canse and effect. (The H m.Witiber here met with
some in-erruption, which
,occasioised a ci of " Bar
bar ," from the men.beis who surrounded h in, and
du ring the coniusion some sentences were fort in t! e
gallery.) The H ,n. Member continue 4.-1 can't colcui
in the observation of the It et lion. Gen lem in, Sir.
nor can
,1 conceive how he can feel tba the danger
•lii.h he described so strongly :is Ilk ly to arise It m
continuing iesistai-ce to those dem-sods, shootd inJuce
him to otellook the danger
...Inch
.lit: is . ow peeci;ir.
pirating and bi unsung to--a dagger, rii my opinion,
much greater than that which lie now hot es to avoid
by Ow prupo:ed measure—(leas). Tlose are two
iionus which have been often mooted in !elation to this
part of the subject. It has hero said that il the Cade.
tics weir p assessed of political power there is no reason
to suppose that they would bisect that rower to the
over throw of the Eoablisheo C:1133 Ch. Ti ,is hypothesis
has been met by the obtervati ni that the ROM en Catho-
lic religion isadvei ,e to Protestantism, and that we can-
not rely' n Roman Catholics when the question arises as
between'the two Churches. But then it is said that this
is not *2 religious question—that it is merely 4 political
question. Now, Si:, this is really cavilling in a way, in
my. opinion, not quite consistent with common sea e.
The qoestion is, whether the Roman Catholics, being
members of a sect holding peculiar ieligious opoions,
can safely be entrusted with political power ? The
whole qu•s:ion, then, n us upon the nature of the Ro-
man Catholic teligion, and it is therefore a question of
religion. The Roman Catholic religion, then, being a
religion of encroachment and u'urpation, if political
power was thrown into the hands of it: members, what
is there to prevent dem from using that power in op-
position to Protestantism—what is to prevent them, for
instance, from subverting the Es.tablished Church of
Ireland? Many calculations have been made as to the
number of Members who would be returned from Ire-
land if the representation of that country was open to
Roman Catholics. I have heard even a larger number
stated, but I don't think it at all unseasonable to sup-
pose that fifty or sixty Members, ball the mite number
returned from Ireland, would be Roman Catholics,—
This would be the state of the representation if we
looked to Ireland alone. But let us also look to this
country. It is well known tha(in this country there are
many noble, wealthy, and powerful families, who are 1
Roman Catholics, and who will naturally look to seats
in Parliament, and to all those objects of ambition and
elevation which Protestants in the same rank usually
'look to. By their influence, and their wealth, and theft
power, thoye families will endeavour to get power over
as many ',main Parliament as they possibly can. Every
one knows that there are many different ways in which
seats in this House are obtained:
6, Nane preniki, nonevents, aunt vi."

NOW OF TOM MONS, MARCH 18.
At ROiltrakfrailiLlS presented a Position from die Lewd
Preemlenl • of Itilluburgii, sighed blibeneeins 111.000
insil 14,000. against she Csiballe Claims, sod similar Peti-
tion EOM arWatipeeishes in fitatomideireki"
from
.
the Pro=3kilif Eite=tn, salad elevenP in
Deckleilkiem, ' Wintery, ht vents. With respect to what
tad been said se the subject of petitions, het& his part shoold be
winks. trek tilltheo_ifeloek in the misrules to hen the middens
of the pleads MOMS ; sod he would seeded these who °hinted.
*at it wee naps ent for soy Member, to move an adjournment
of the debiee. He Wended to impose a closes in the Bill wpm-
vent the Mame Minister mid Piny Connell being Catholics, mid
he bone the /Aimee ovoid est son a clause.
Colueel Pa's. presented Ear Petitions from foal potashes
fulgurliiiii.
lir. LAIle presented eighteen Petitions from parisheilo
Zip
the r.
of in Caner of thi Catholic Claims.
ca SI ;premed a Panne from lilarketsteide. .
in Llueoloshies.eobhet eke *idiotic Mew
Mr. D/CX pressured Ave similar Petitions from parish's in .
&Sadie •
litg: %AIME took that pereseky of nietideolog, that whet
he lialland ma a huomoreltilsi es lb* Bill now MOO dill
Hesse dis natal Casimir,. had bets•llikilden- . flotittlit •
bad the il. um. liklits liewseille hod ested. topeinehe i.
Mint blataireseli‘ditiken 'slew fir bkipietelis:
be noel& give avery dechied nee &phut the present BM. •
Ur. Nernst WOOD prosamoid•a Petition from the Unita-
rians of Ceeterhery. In tenor oftlip Catholic Claims
EDWARDitIis It N A TCH DU LL 'presented Petitions from
ern end tea parishes in Int, against the Catholic Calms;
and &boiler Pedtiesis from .Ikinint,, god rho Kirk Seaton of Dun-
dee; and a Petition from Ilisomgiteein favour of the amass. •
Mr. bRANSBY coops* presented a Petition Crass 1111.4 b►
moil, against Cooceisions: •
Mr. OVA RA pinented Penises from the Inhabitants of Gal-
way, sedsbe Ompbratini of Galway. I. favour of the Claims.
bk. W. DU ND AS repeated Madam from the Corporation of
Goldsmiths of EUeliergli. in favour of the Catholic Claims; sod
from the of Tailors, against the Claims.
Lord DO AN NON preseined a Petition from certain Catho- '
lies of IWO& egoism the Disfranchisement Bill, which be should
°pone as muiservary and oiliest. -
Lord ALTHORF said he Agreed with his Noble Friend in
disliking the Ill), is mach as be could dislike it. He had supported
the Dl.franchisement Bill of 1825, because he belleted the forty
shilling freeholders were entirely under the controul. tricker land-
lords. The election of 11126 convinced him tbst,opinion was
errands's. and be sineevely, wished that the Enuincipation Bill '
could be passed without the other measure ; but Be understood
that was imposdbie, he most reluctantly rapport the Disfranchise- '
ment Bills for the sake of the ether—(Hear). - • .
Colonel DAVIS said, he had the highest regret for the opinions
of both his Noble Friends • yet he should have supported the Dia-
,fratichisentent MI if it stood alone, bailing it as he did as a measure
of Parliamentary Reform, &the 40a freeholders of Ireland were
at present at the oisposal either of their landlords of their Priests.
Sir IL COLDURN Willie had served on Irish Eieetion Com-
mittees. illirWall made= the freehold there required regulation;
and that the proposed Bill wee a geed measure.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE said he cockily agreed in the opinion on
the 'Object that had been lately given by his Friend the Member
fur Wiest:bases (Mr. Broogbane).
Mi. P. lIIACQUEEN presented Petitions from Dumtable, and
six parishes in Bedfordshire, against the Catholic Claims.
Ale. HURST presented a Petition from the Baptists of Horsham
in !avow of the Catholic Claim..
hit. STANLEY presented seven similar Petitions from %Vat-
Hasten. and p_arisbes in Lancashire.
Mr. KNOX presented a similar Petition from the inhabitants of
dip amity of Tyrone.
Sr. WILLS presented Petitions from the Dissenters of Maid-
stone and the palish of Peeltinghant. against Cosa-sans ; and similar
• Pisidoma frees two parishes in Nadia.
*Lord ROBERT MANNERS presented three similar Petitions
Irma pathos ist Cambridge.
litr. SeTCOVRT presented a similar Petition from a parish in
Stager&
lik. DUODALE presented two similar Petitions from parishes
In Werwiek.
MC DICKENSON presented three similar Petitions from pa-
stels& inloimenet.
•r; C. PALLMEft presented too Aguilar Petition from eon-
gregatientbs•imulawuk.
Lord GEORGE LENOX presented a similar.Petition'frini a
parish in Sussex. •
Mr. CHAPLIN preeentid two similar Petitions from parishes
in Uncoil.
• Lord UXBRIDGE preiented a similar Petition from the PrO-
natant Dissenters of Ho ybead. • t • • •
Lord JOHN RUSSELL presorted Petidems in hveure(Con-
cession, from Oldham and Betainal•green- . ..'i
... •
ADJOURNED DEBATE—ROMAN CATHOLErEELItIe BILL.
A few minutes before six o'clock, upon the mesissa.of Mr. ge•
cretary P&L, the Order of the Day for
secondresuming debate on
tu
the reading of the Rattan Catholic Relief 4 w 4,. read.
The SPEAKER having put the question on the s ' id reading,.
Mr. BANKES, WO. toss and addressedlifib• House
nearly as follows—Sir, I have so often bad ditsion to '
eater upon the discussion of the subject now under con-
sideration, both in this and in former Houses of• Par. '
Lament, during the fait frivent)-sin years, that, if it were
not from the eery particular circumstances under which'
the question now comes before as, I should not hive
considered it necessary to have inuuded myself on the
attention of the House. The novelty of the qtiestion
as it now comes before Parliame.a, wises from the al.
feted position in which I and ninny others who continue.
to act with me, and who adhere to the opinions we.
have always professed to maintain on this subject, find'
ourselves placed in with regard to some of the Men-
bets g.f his Majesty's • Government u ith whom we had
been previously aceo towed to act. That is the first
conOderatitin which arises, and to that co,isioeraticinl
shall now take leave to direct a few observatihns. • 1 d 4
nut enter upon this discussion, Sir,. with the hoph--df
efering any thing new on this very exhausted .stitiecil
It would greatly surpass my' ability to offer any thifig
new on suLl a question. Wren it is complainsa b
the Bight Honourable-Mover, and ocher Members of
his Majese)'s Government, however,• that they boand
themselves deseited • in former ditcussions on Ibis 41titki-
II lion by those who concurred in opinion with- then,' I
Might, •ptsh Ts, venture to say that I sal . liCle-One of
those who can be justly charged with having deserted
them on former occasions, however"! might now hated
right of accusing them of deserting me—(Hear, heal:"
The Right Honourable Mover,Blr, hat endeavouredto
impress upon us that the difficult, Which weighed
upon his mind, and which be found irnpdssible to solve,
was, that if we:refused further concessions to the Ro-
man C,tholics, se could devise Ito other course which
we r ught to pursue. -This argument has been at) Often*,
Il repeated, and so much relied upon, that I shall take the
libett y of adverting to it at the beginning of whet Mail
*Se. to the House. It has been presser! upon MI over
and beer again, that if we do not concur ib'what is
bow advised by his Majesty's Ministers webasse nothing
else to suggest instead, Now, Sir, I say that this errs-
'lent which is pressed upon. us by the Right Honout.
abie Movor was pressed upon him repeatedly in fattier
debates. . It was the chief argument of those who were
favourable to concessions to the Roman Cathotercs, and
• was pressed repeatedly on the Right Hon. Al by
1 Mr. Culoing,, and by*Mr. now Lord Pluokett, who al-
ways endeavoured to put the Right Hon. Moms into a
ditinelli by•saying, " If you wip not grant congestion
1 to the Roman Catholics, what do you propose as a sub-

klooarch and his advisers on the admission of Roman Cationic'
to political power. (Woe of the first Acts of the ant Session of
the reign of that bloaarch was an Act watch disabled Papists
from the enemies •of Legislative power or lutboeity. It ev.o
went further, and indicted upon them baoishavent front the me-
tropolis. I o not advert to these measures for the pelmet of
adeociting them in the abstract. I ant aware that they were
called fur by the necessity of the times, and that is the v.ry
ground which I take. The Conduct sod known ptineiples the
Roman Catholics called for those measures, sad alone war-
ranted their adoption - they were justified by necessity—dot
only could justify Ahem—but the existence of that necessity is
in the highest degree impurtaat to my present argum-itt.—
I confess my total inability to comprehend bow any rational and
well informed men can doubt the senumentsof Kill Go-
vernment and of the Mtwara hinsaellon the tusfunevs of Roman
Catholics to exercise political power in this country.. To say nothing
oldie Acts paned In England, those adopted in Scotland would
alone be OrChiliVlN Those statutes Ica thilltroagest" trims tieroJoto
the doctrines 6f the Roman Catholic church, and assert the unfit-
ness of those who profess them (or the enjoyment of power in a
Protestant country. To me it appears one of the most perfectly
compreheusible matters that ever came under my obeervationkow
any man can doubt -the mind, the aniatise with which these
measures were adopted, or could glee any other interprets.
Lion than I have given to the Toleration Act. Th.t Act was not
passed for the indulgence of Catholics; it was passed solely
(or the benefit of the Protestants thiamin*, for the relict of tender
amselencee amongst those who dissented from the doctrines and db.
cipliae of the chinch of Rome. In fact, a special exception was
made to the disadvantage of the Roman Catholics; for then, as folly
as now. the. believers in ttaniebstautiation were excluded from
offices of State and the esercise ofkeidative power.• I am aware
that the authority of )Ir. Locke often quoted in support ut she
measure before the House ; add (think his authority most material
to my purposes, being, as be sioquesiiinably was, the great advocate
of toleration. No one will question atthis time of day the character
of that eminent philosopher, or doubt the tolerant spirit •ot his
writing. Now, that philosopher distinctly recognised the esdositte
of Roman Catholics from the benefit of the Toleration Act.. I am lei
from saying that such principles should now be acted upon; but
dds I du say, that—and it was with tbeebject of sappootleg the
assertion I ads about to make that I advert to those citeasmottidoes,
thin Ido my, that they mealiest, in the deem possible osatmer,
the Acts */ King William were fully. completely calculated fete she
exclusion of Roman Catholles--that that was the principle. of his
Government, and one feasriyidels it never awerv4. There cannot
be a.groeser misrepresentstionstalim. to put a shgerrit gloss upon
. the measures of that reign. The authorities 'to which I have re.