Star.
London, England, 1821-04-13 00:00:00

ORDNANCE.

Mr. HUNIE was aware of the importance of the
subject that he was to bring before the house. The
motion had sprung from the enquiries he had made
into the Ordnance Expenditure. He made the motion
first in a constitutional point of view, and, second, on
the ground of expense. The subject had excited his
attention from what had taken place at Sheerness and
Queenborough. He found that almost every depart-
ment in the Ordnance had been filled by Freemen of
Queenborough, and many had been displaced to make
room for Freemen of that Borough, and to place them
on the Superannuation List. He should bring in a
IBill to prevent Civil Officers of the Ordnance from
voting at the election of Members of Parliament, as
was the case in other Public Offices. AU the Statutes
on this subject went to prevent the exertion of impro-
per influence. If he could shew that the majority of
any Electors were under the influence of the Crown,
that would be a sufficient reason to place such per-
sons under the same restrictions as the Officers of the
Salt and Excise. The Act 22d Geo. 111. had a most
salutary effect, and had been attended from the House
of Commons by 100 Members to- the Upper House.
The restrictions, which extended to the Customs and
Excise, the Masters of Packets and the Postmasters,
he proposed to apply to the Ordnance. The exception
to the Act was, that holders of Patent Places should
not be included in it ; and the exception proved the
principle of the law. On oecasion of the former Bill,
the third reading had been carried by 87 to 12. By
the 434 of Geo.-1.11. ch. 25, all those regulations had

ter: =,~=

' been extended to Ireland. By the sth of William and
Mary, no Collector was to attempt to influence the
vote of any individual, and that principle bad been
carried through the whole of the Customs, and had
been subsequently extended to the Excise, the Post
Office, and to almost all the other departments con-
nected with the management of the Revenue. He
wished only to extend the old principle to the onlyl
branch to which it at present was not extended. By his
Bill he left it to the individual either to suspend the,
exercise of his electivefranchise,or to vacate his offices.
The Gth of Queen Anne, c. 2, said, that no persons'
holding offices created after a certain time should be
capable of filling a seat in that House; and ex-
tended it to many Agents, Commissioners of Trans-
ports, and persons holding pensions at pleasure. In
1802, 151 electors voted at the election for Queen-
borough, and the numbers were 76 and 75 ; when
the election went against the Government. But at
that time the number of persons in the Ordnance at
that place was only 17. At the last election, Messrs.
Hunt and Villiers, the Government candidates, had
166 votes, and the Opposition candidate had only
66. But now there were 147 freemen who had
places to the amount of £ll,OOO, and 32 others had
situations in the Customs and the Preventive Service.
He should next proceed to shew how far the Ord-
nance department extended. The first was Mr.Grey-
stock, of the Tower. lie was the Mayor, and had
become Barge-master of the Ordnance. His salary
was not a very great one, to be sure, being only £6O
a-year ; but he had enjoyed it for eleven years, and
the post was a perfect sinecure. He understood that
this gentleman, in addition to his public capacity,was
an oyster salesman—(A laugh).—He was, too, Mayor
of Queenborough. A gallant General (Sir Ulys,.es
Burgh) smiled at this account; but he (Nlr. Ilume),
considering that for eight months in the year this
individual was at Billingsgate, selling his oysters, and
for the other four months getting them in France,
did look upon this office as a great sinecure, be the
salary what it might. Mr. Greet was the next in
succession; and no individual, certainly, had derived
more benefit from the liberal patronage of the Ord-
nance
Office than he. Of no person had so many ves-
sels been hired for the transport of stores, and so forth.
He got as much as he could himself, in the way of
employment, and by way of his own influence; for
he had procured his brother to be appointed Deputy
Barge-master. He held the situation, which, alto-
gether, was worth nearly £5OO a-year ; he had £250
salary, his coals, candles, and so forth; besides which,
his brother had the command of a cutter. They had
heard of a Manager in that House: this Gentleman
seemed to be the Manager for the Ordnance, in this
particular department of it. The next person is
Henry Ligonier he had a salary of £lOB a-year,
perquisites, &c. lived in Upnor Castle; besides this,
he had the command of a vessel, which was em-
ployed by the Ordnance Office, and which, no doubt,
afforded him very nice pickings ! James Bowton, of
Sheerness,- also a jurat, part owner of a vessel ; his
allowance was £lOB a-year, besides £2O for house
rent. lie commanded the Cord Howe powder vessel,
gf 35 tons, as it had been returned, though it very
probably was of much larger burden. He (Mr. Hume),
while he was collecting information respecting this
very vessel, was placed in a very awkward situation,
for he had been told by the clerk of the Ordnance
Office, that if he thought any persoir on board her
was giving an iota of that information, he would
have him immediately turned away—( Loud cheers
flan, the Treasury beaches,which were loudly reiterated
by the Opposition).—That cheer told two ways—
( Hear).—lt told that the Gentlemen connected with
the Ordnance Department were afraid to have the,
real facts of the case made known. He was quite
pleased with the cheering answer of the Right Hon.
Gentleman in particular, the Master of the Mint.
unbalir. l'OLhElyse to order. He submitted that it was quite
rqu
etoestbeedthtehepoßinigthtinHwohnichGeizitrle.mHaniuneto
Ike
for the
Hon._ Gentleman to appeal to him in this way.
state what he conceived
was out of order.

Mr. POLE said, that the Hon. Gentleman applied himself to
him first of aIL He had said that he (Mr. Pole) smiled and
laughed, and not content with this, he had then appealed to
him by name.

The.SPEAKER said, that if a cheer proceeded from any
individual, to the interruption of another Hon. Gentleman who
was speaking, it was evidently disorderly; and, therefore, to
impute such a cheer to an Hon. Member, was also disorderly.
Mr. POLE appealed to the House whether he had cheered
the lion. Member for Aberdeen, or done anything disorderly?
Mr. HUME disclaimed any intention to hurt the
feelings of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and
proceeded to state a number of cases of the kind he
had before alluded to, observing, at the same time,
that he was prepared to prove all that he asserted
before a Committee of that House. How could such
men exercise an unbiassed franchise, when they were
all liable to be dismissed at the pleasure of the Mas-
ter-General of the Ordnance? Of one single family
of the name of Pillet, nine or ten were saddled on the
Public. Certain Officers had been dismissed at Ports-
mouth for misconduct ; while other Officers at Queen-
borough, whose misconduct had been much greater,
had, through the influence of the Ordnance, been re-
stored. A person of the name of Langley had been
appointed Storekeeper at Dover, with a salary of
1:W0, though a considerable saving would have been
made by appointing a reduced Storekeeper. . Wm.
Aiken Storekeeper, aged seventy-two, had been super-
annuated at £5OO a-year; and a person of the name
of Atkins, aged seventy-four, possessed of £2,000
a-year, had been appointed in his room (Hcar,hear).
The result was, that 147 persons had among them
£14,000, and thirty-two houses, together with ser-
vents. That was the end of his first list. Of the next,
Mr. Marshall had £250 salary, and a gratuity of
£2OO a-year. Then came Mr. T. Marshall, with a
'salary of £2OO a-year, and an allowance for coals
and candles. Eleven freemen of Queenborough had
among them £2,600 a-year. The sum total, with
the Houses and the Preventive Service, amounted to.
£25,000. He had a list of sixteen persons who had
been dismissed, and their places supplied by inhabit-
ants of Queenborough. By a Circular of the Ord-
nance, none above the age of forty-five could be ad-
mitted to these services. But a man of the name of
Kensley had beenstnissed, and another called Ro-
bertson, aged forty-eight, had been appointed in his
place. The reason was, that Robertson was a native
of Queenborough, and the other was not. A man of
the name of Smith had, in like manner, been dis-
charged, and G. May, aged fifty-five, and a native of
Queenborough, had been appointed in his room. The
Honourable Gentleman, in like manner, cited a num-
ber of similar cases. A ;pan of the name of J. Eagle,

'arta seventy-seven, had superseded a person dr the
name of Savory, who had been eighteen years in the
service; and Eagle himself was almost immediately
superannuated at £6O a-year, having twenty years"
before been superannuated at £4O a-year. 'Lavin,
gone through these facts, the Honourable Memb;
recapitulated some of the principal grounds on which
he rested his motion. If the House rejected it, he
should be perfectly ready to support a Bill to enable
the Board, the Master-General of the Ordnance, or
the Lords of the Treasury, to appoint the Xlembery
for Qucenborough, instead of going through the
mockery ofan election—(Hear, hear).—By this melt=
if these useless officers, only retained for their votes,
were dismissed, the Public would save the important
sum of £25,000 a-year. He concluded by moviet
for leave to bring in a Bill to disqualify certain civl
servants of the Board of Ordnance from voting at
Elections for Members of Parliament—(Cheerino.
Mr. BERNAL seconded the Motion. At a la::
Election for Rochester, no less than twentp,five
sons belonging to the Quarantine Establishment ha'
given their votes. He did not mean to say that (i:).
vernment should exert no influence, but he withed
that influence not to be corrupt.

Mr. It. ‘VARD would oppose the Bill in ail is
parts, though he was at a loss with what part dila
Honourable Gentleman's speech he should begin. He
believed he had a complete answer to all his cases_
He would put it to the Hon. Gentleman, whether be
would not have done better to have put off the goes•
tion in the absence of the Noble Person who reprr.
sented the Government in that House? In the notice
the Hon. Gentleman had stated, that he would emend
the motion to others, by which he probably meant
the Navy. But he had though proanr to simplify
the motion, probably because the Officers of the Otd.
nance usually voted with the Government, which eh
not the case in the Navy. Ile should oppose the
motion, as it tended to throw a stigma on a merita
rious body of nien—(Chcers and lanOtcr).—Bot the
Hon. Member could not stop here : to be consistent
he must extend the Bill to c•: cry derailment of the
Navy. But he hoped the Il,aite. would read him a
better lesson. The lion. Gentleman had opposed the
Newington Vestry Bill on the ground that it took
away the elective franchise from a great body of
Electors, but now the I-lon. Gentleman propoita to
disfranchise a much greater number. The Bill west
on a false assumption that all in the service voted for
the Government Candidate. But the contrary had
appeared in the case of Great Yarmouth and Ipswicl,,
which had been carried by the Dockmen against the
Government. He had been informed that there was
in his own Office, a Radical Reformer. He (Mr.ll,
Ward) asked if the man was a good Clerk? and
being answered in the affirmative, he had allowed
that individual to go thrice to Maidstone to vote
against the Candidate supported by Government.—
If he (Mr. Hume) complained of the influence of Go.
vernment, what became of the influence on the other
side of the House? Would he prevent Tenants from
voting agreeably to the wishes of their Landlords?
The motion of the Hon. Gentleman was either a wild
Utopian scheme, or made with a view to hurt a pax
ticular body of men. A motion had been made by
Mr. Marshall, to disfranchise the Dockmen, because
they had opposed him at his Election fur the County
of Kent ; and Lord Granville, then a young man,
said he could not sufficiently express his indignation
at the conduct of a man who endeavoured to tale
away the elective franchise from so great a body of
his fellow-citizens. Lord St. Vincent, at the ap-
prbach of an Election, used to telegraph the dif-
terent ships, that the men might come on shore,
and enjoy the elective franchise. In 11+02., the
Member for Coventry, and Mr. Prinsep, had turned
out the Government Candidates at Queenborough.—
Sir Samuel lionlilly had twice represented that ito-
rough, and the parity of his cha.-acter was univer-
sally knows:. Though thn: Government of 1312 had
failed at Queenborough, yet that ol*lBo6 succeeded,
no doubt, by honourable means. Because 146 eke-
tors had voted for the Government, the Homo
able Gentleman now wished to disfranchise 2000
electors. The Honourable Gentleman must remodel
his motion, for as it now stood, or if he altered it, it
would be an anomaly either way to say, that a mat
should vote in the House and not vote out of it. If
a man was influenced in his vote out of the Honer,
he was as likely to be influenced in it. In the year
1803 several Officers and servants in the Ordnance
voted against the Government without being dis-
missed. Captain Dickenson was himself a personal
friend of Mr. Fox, and now a great admirer of his
principles, yet he retained his office. The Honour-
able Member had not made out his case; and the
House would not be able to stop if it went on to de'
prive Englishmen of the invaluable privilege of
'ercising.the elective franchise. He could state that
a majority of the freemen of Queenborough who bad
votes were not employed by the Ordnance. There
were 129 persons employed by that establishme‘
and 163 of them unemployed by it. He denied that
there had been places created for the purpose of I°'
fluencing the freemen of Queenborough; neitheihad
the Honourable Gentleman pointed out a singleoffice
that had been so created. It was true that the fret'
men of Queenborough had been and must hew'
ployed by the Ordnance. It was within one o_,
and a half of Sheerness, that great port of rani
equipment, and where were they to look for games
nearer ? He thought that the Honourable Genderao.
ought to have given him notice of the number 't
persons dismissed, because they were not freemen, t° '
make way for those who were free. The Ordauce
had never done so. He had instanced the case
da
man named Kensley, who was dismissed alter hal
ten years a foreman of a magazine. Now the lot
was, that the magazine was reduced, but that Kent
ley and another were kept as labourers. Be .
stanced several who were also discharged as foremea
and retained as labourers till vacancies should ens°6
The Hon. Gentleman had, in a fit of kindness and,
candour, promised him information of allihe cases
oppression charged against
The Hon. Gentleman accused him of rating a vessel
56 tons, when she was but 36; and that he had sett
old him
a person to measure her. He (Mr. Ward) ,
the Board Oldnaorti.;
that if any one suffered her to be measuied. wan. °°,
the knowledge of the Board, he should be dism,ts.4lr.
" 0, don't do that act of oppression ; fur I told t::
person to measure her with t
so happened, that he Jonihha hisd
the ves,_el aire eye!"—(A 1476010_i
s"
and she proved to be 56 tons and upwards.
.
eaulai ity of the Officers of abe BvuJ at Qde°ll°.

W

rough not residing in the honses ttliotted to them,.
was now cured. He was not at present aware of any
cases of malversation In office of a less kind than those
at sheerness, for which persons had been dismissed
from their situations in Portsmouth. Upon inquiry,
it was found that there had been no coals pilfered by
the Officers of the Ordnance at Sheerness. They lent
their own coals to public service; and when the Con-
tractor sent down the coals, they repaid themselves
in open day. As to the wood, the Officers were not
to blame, but the Ordnance Office. He would not
take the Hon. Gentleman's assertions for Gospel ; for
thire never was a person who trenched so deep in
mistakes as the Hon. Gentleman. He had accused
them of dismissing a man of 72 to make room
for one of seventy-four; but the first was infirm, and
was superannuated on full pay, after fifty-six years
service; the other, though older, was a hale, hearty
sran, and able for duty, and he was put in his place.
Mr. HUME said, the Right Hon. Gentleman had
scarcely denied one of his statements—(hear, hear).
Colonel DAVIES said, the cry of innovation was
raised when any attempt was made to counteract the
overwhelming influence of the Crown, or to bring
back the Constitution to first principles. Why was
not this cry of innovation, or rather, what became of
it, when it was thought proper to bring a new
Placeman into the House? His Hon. Friend's mo-
tion was founded on the best principles of the Consti-
tution. The Officers of the Customs, and the Excise,
should as well be qualified to vote for Members of Par-
liament as the servants of the Board of Ordnance.
Mr. P. MOORE said, there were persons dismissed
from their offices at Queenborough, when he got in
for that Borough.
Mr. TIERNEY said, who was right and who was
wrong as to the charges against the Ordnance, he
could not decide without a Corn -•.:ttee of Inquiry;
but he established this fact, that precluding large
classes of the subjects from voting for Members of
Parliament, if they held certain offices under the
Government, was recognized by the Legislature at a
period of 40 years ago. The House had not to study
the benefit of a part, but what was good for the
whole. It appeared probable that Government had
the majority of votes for both Members for Queen-
borough. That Borough must be considered to all
intents and purposes a Government Borough. The
law disfranchising the Excise and Custom-house Offi-
cers passed by a very large majority, because, if that
had not been the case, Government, in all small
places, could carry every Candidate into Parliament
that they chose. •If this Bill were to be brought in,
he should be inclined to confine it to Queenborough;
for he saw no mason why the Officers of the Ord-
nance generally should be disfranchised. There
would be no hardship in extending the law of 1782,
in those places where the Government was found to
have undue influence.
Mr. BATHURST opposed the motion. If the
principle was to be adopted, as related to the Ord-
nance, why was it not extended to the Navy ? In-
deed, where was it to stop? If this Bill was adopted,
it would Fo to disfranchise the greater portion of the
2,000 individuals employed by the Ordnance. The
Right Honourable Gentleman contended that the pre-
cedent of the Excise would not apply here. A man
entering the Excise became wholly dependent on Go-
vernment, and was fit for nothing else if dismissed
by Government ; whilst, on the contrary, every la-
bourer in the Ordnance had a profession, to which,
if discharged, he could turn for support, and which
kept him, to a certain extent, independent.
Mr. HUME replied, and stated, that an office of
Clerk of the Cheque was created for Mr. Breeze, at
Waltham Abbey, with a salary of ZOO, and Mr.
Breeze was a freeman of Queenborough. The Hon.
Member proceeded to repeat his former statement,
and to contend for its accuracy; and mentioned a
circumstance of a Clerk having been dismissed for
proving some abuses in open Court.
Mr. WARD, in explanation, denied this latter fact.
So far from the individual having proved any charges,
nothing was proved, and the charge was proved to
be most vexatious.

The Gallery was cleared for a division--
For the Motion
Against it 118

Majority against the Motion
SCOTC II MALT.

- -58

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved, that the several Petitions, complaining of
the additional Duty on Malt in Scotland, should be
referred to a Select Committee.—Ordered.
Mr.MONCK was at a loss to know why Scotland
alone should be the subject of inquiry, and England
be excluded. He could not but consider this as the
result of a promise made to Scotch Members to in-
duce them to vote on the second reading of the Malt
Duty Repeal Bill, which they had done. This wa,
to create a division in the House, which would enable
the Chanceller of the Exchequer to be*.them at all
times. He hoped, however, all parties would unite
next Session to get rid of this oppressive Tax.
Sir G. CLERK considered this as an entirely dis-
tinct question regarding Scotland, on which the sub-
ject pressed most materially.
Sir R. FERGUSON was aware he was doing an
unpopular act in opposing this motion, but he must
do so, considering as he did that several of the Eng-
lish Counties called for similar consideration. He
considered this proposition as a boon to the Agricul-
turists of Scotland, for the votes they gave to Mi-
nisters on a recent occasion.

Mr. MACKENZIE denied that the object of the
motion was such as stated by the gallant General.—
It was intended to inquire whether Scotland had any
case calling for consideration or not.
Mr. J. P. GRANT thought the proposition came
forward under very suspicious circumstances; yet,
such as it was, he must be content to take it.
The CHANGELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
liis present proposition was made in consequence of a
promise given last Session, and not any recent pro-
mise, as insinuated by the Hon. Gentleman opposite.
Sir M. RIDLEY was convinced the Right Hon.
Gentleman was actuated by conscientious motives,
and that he would, if necessary, allow the poor coun-
ties of England to present their Petitions also to the
Committee, as the barley of many English counties
Was poorer and less able to bear the duty than Scotch
barley. If this was done he would support the motion.
Sir it. FERGUSON claimed indulgence for Cum-
berland, Northumberland, Derbyshire, and part of
Yorkshire.
Mr. D. GILBERT claimed the same indulgence for
C latzh).

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the quality of the inferior barleys of England would
constitute a material object of inquiry.
The gallery was then cleared for a division—•
For the Motion . . 53
Against it
Majority —36
Mr. J. P. GRANT declared that if the question of
the Malt-tax was again brought forward, he would
support the repeal.
Mr. F. PALMER was convinced, notwithstanding
what had been said to the contrary, that the repeal
would benefit the farmer.

After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, Sir R. FERGUSON, Mr. MONCK, and
others, on the subject of English barley, a proposi..
tion was made to refer the Petitions from the tSarley
Counties of England to the Committee; the motion
was negatived without a division, and the Committee
was appointed for Scotland only.

IP/RIGHTS AND MEASURES.
Mr. D. GILBERT moved for the appointment of
a Committee to inquire into and consider the several
Reports made to the House on the subject of Weights
and Measures, and to Report their observations to
the House. The motion was agreed to, and a Com-
mittee appointed accordingly.