Star.
London, England, 1819-11-24 00:00:00

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0

serve hiniself till the arrival of the day in which the
subject should be particularly considered, either with
respect to the loyalty of the Meeting, or with tele-
ranee to any information of which Government were
ecclusively possessed, and with respect to facts which
could not be controverted. He could venture to as-
sert, upon his confidence in the opinions of those who
bad been consulted, that the conduct which had been
So impugned was perfectly justifiable. In cases of,
this sort, their Lordships must be aware that to talk
of a sweeping responsibility was of no avail. On
Wednesday, the 17th of August, two Gentlemen,
came to town for the purpose of putting his Majesty s
Government in possession of the real situation of af-
fairs at Manchester. This information more strongly
confirmed the propriety of proceeding in the course
laid down ; and with this accumulation of facts, it
had still been deemed necessary to forego proceed-
ings, until the opinion of the Law Officers of the
Crown had been taken, which declared the Meeting
to be illegal, and the conduct of the Magistrates just
and proper--(Hear, hoar, hear). What, he asked,
would have been the situation of these Magistrates,
who had sacrificed every thing to the service of their
Country, if his Majesty's Ministers, instead Of doing
as they had done, had said—" Something may come
out at some future time, and we had better wait?"
(Hear, hear, hear). Had there ever existed any pe-
riod at which their Lordships had been more indis-
psnsably called upon to protect the Constitution and
Laws of this Country ? It hid been stated, that a
number of persons had lost their lives at Manchester,
and this subject was strongly dwelt on; but it should
be recollected, that these were not the only persons
who had suffered. One person connected with the
Police Office had actually been stoned to death in
the open face of day!--(Hear, hear, hear). Two
other persons who had given evidence on the Inquest
at Oldham, had had their lives placed in the most
imminent danger, having been fired at several times,
but yet their cases had, in some measure, been lost
sight of. There was not, in fact, during the whole
proceedings, one life lost by a violation of the laws ;
the course pursued was justifiable in every view of it,
and had the Magistrates not acted as they had done,
the situation of the Country might have now been
the most frightful. Their Lordships were now called
upon to perform a great duty, and he felt convinced
that they would so perform that duty as to give en-
tire satisfaction to the Country at large, and satisfy
the People that his Majesty's Ministers were doing
every thing in their power to ameliorate their situa-
tion (!tear, hear, hear). He would not enter into the
. particulars of the cause that induced his Majesty to
dispense with the services of a Noble Earl (Fitzwil-
Lon) to whom allusion had been made ; but he must
say, that the conduct of that Noble Earl was such as
to render it indispensably necessary to follow such a
course. His Lordship concluded by saying, that un-
derstanding the present subject would at a future pe-
riod occupy the attention of their Lordships, he
• would not enter farther into it at present, but at the
same time expressed his intention to vote for thc Ad-
dress as it stood ; and if the Noble Earl persisted in his
Amendment he •vould meet it with a direct negative.
Lord ERSKINE observed, the only question now
w as to know, whether their Lordships should vote
for the Address or the. Amendment? The question
was certainly one of the greatest interest ; and as the
' Noble Viscount, who had just sat down, had told
them that he would not enter into the Amendment,
he should only detain their Loidships for a few mo-
ments longer. The question was no less than whe-
ther they should vote the amendment, and whether
they should tell the People that their wrongs should
be redressed by them? If it were true that the ques-
tion would have been prejudged on the former occa •
sion, what right had they to prejudge it now ? He
contended that many of the dangers that had arisen
were created by the non-attendance to the complaints
of the People ; and it was now for their Lordships to.
prove to them that they were their Representatives.
There had been Meetings of great multitudes of the
People, but it was not likely that, as in the present
case, they would have taken with them defenceless
women and•children, if their object had been really
that described. If such was the case, the Riot Act
ought to have been read, which did not appear, to
have been done. Was it to be said, that a man, be-
cause he was a felon, was to be sabred ? Was it to
be said, that because the Magistrates were right in
dispersing the'Meeting, the Military were justified in
going into it and cutting the people right and left ?
I f the use•made of the Military on the present occa-
sion were to pass unnoticed, when it became legally
necessary its use would become vitiated. He was
rally convinced that the State could not be safe unless
the Petitions of the People were attended to, and he',
now tailed on their Lordships to convince them that I
they were determined to prove to them- that they
were sincere, by adopting the Amendment.
Lord KING contended that nothing that had
grassed subsequertly had tended to allay the sensation
that had been created by the transactions at Man-'
chester. He complained that the multitude had bees
suffered to meet at all, and of the moment that had
been thought most proper to arrest the individuals.
The conduct pursued, he described to have had the
effect of setting one class of the community at vat-6
ince with the other, and ascribed the present situae
tide of the country to the want of a timely Reform.
Ile adverted to the sum awarded to his Royal High-
ness the Duke of York in the last Session, which he
complained of, as did he also of the adjournment oil
the Oldham Inquest. His Lordship concluded by
lamenting, that any circumstances should have arises
that might have the effect of breaking down the
wholesome feeling that ought to exist between the
People and the Government, and exhorting their
Lordships not to come to any conclusion without
duly considering the importance of the subject.
The Earl of CARYSFORT raid, it was impossible
that such Meetings could be legal, when they were
assembled for purposes hostile to all property and
private security ; and, indeed, to all the purposes for
which men have agreed to enter into social society.
"It was, therefore, their duty to assist Government, in
order to resist those who by their arts would inflame
the minds of the People, and would use them for

it was the duty of every Public Officer, and of every
individual in the land, to do the same, if they valued
their property and lives, or even the safety of the
State. What would have been said by Lord Somers
at the Revolution, of libelling Grand Juries, because
they would not violate their oaths ? What would he
have said of the power of popular clam our directing
such immense masses of turbulent, inflamed, and
misguidedrindivichyls? These were the serious evils
which should induce all good men to stand forward
in defence of Constitutional Liberty. He still was of
opinion that lenient measures were much better than
those of a harsher character I but he could not con-
sider the approving of the conduct of the Magistrates
when they were supposed to have done their duty,
of the latter description. He felt that this question
interested him much, inasmuch as it affected a Noble
Friend of his, whom he had esteemed for fifty years;
bat if that Noble Friend had advised with him, he,
perhaps, would have wished him to have taken a
different step from what he did ; still he regretted
that Ministers had adopted such a course with re-
spect to Lord Fitzwilliam, who had many times done
great violence to his interest and feelings, by sup-
porting the Government and the Constitution. He
therefore, could net applaud the way in which Go-
vernment had treated that Noble Earl.

The Duke of ATHOL thought it the duty of every
man to resist the arts of factious individuals, and the
dissemination of sedition and blasphemy. He knew,
however, that the efforts of the disaffected had not
been so successful in Scotland, as they had wished
or expected; bat he could speak froni his own know,'
ledge, that seditious trash had been given away
among them, or -sold at low prices, with the vain ex-
pectation of seducing them from their loyalty, 'and
blasphemy spread abroad to destroy their religious
principles. These, however, were too deep rooted to'
be so easily destroyed; and they remained patient in
their situations, expecting better times. Ile, how-
ever, thought that Government should be supported
in preventing the progress of Radical Reform, which
was simply, every man that could, seizing his neigh-
bour's goods, and retaining them if he was able. If
they could stop such a spirit, let it be done with as
little harshness as possible; but if he were asked
what measures he would propose? he should say, just
such measures as the case required ; and let them
stop when the necessity which called for them should
cease. Nothing should prevent him from doing
what he thought his duty, and he should therefore,
attend de die in diem in his place, to further all mea-
sures to prevent such proceedings.
Lord LILFORD said, he was the advocate ofi
thousands, and tens of thousands, of their loyal and
peaceable fellow-subjects, v.ho called upon them to
put a stop to those turbulent proceedings, which in-
terfei ed with their quiet and ordinary habits of life.
He read a letter from a perscra in the middle order
of life, stating, that the People would not he goaded
on by Reformers, if they were not perverted by the
blasphemous and seditious tracts so inihistriously
circulated, and which Government ought to put a
'stop to. He defended the conduct of the Manchester
Magistrates. •
hail GUY explained. If it could be maintained
in this instance, that Parliamentary inquiry was extra-
judicial, the same might be contended in every in-
stance where the Constitution was violated.

Lord LILFORD resumed. These Magistrates
were most respectable individuals, and were most de-
sirous of inquiry.
Earl GREY said, be meant no aspersion on the
character of the Magistrates.; but he wished to see it
proved, that they bad not in that instance gone be-
yond the letter of the Law.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, the Manches.
ter Magistrates wished for inquiry into their conduct;
but, for the sake of the people -attire country, he
must resist it. • No man could say that such Meet-
ings were legal), when it was held that numbers Coll
stituted force ; and other such language was held, to
intimidate the,peaceable subjects of the State. Was that
English liberty ? The law now wished for, was, that if
Grand Juries threw out Bills, they were to enter into
inquiry, to satisfy popular clamour. The meanest
subject in this realm tvas greater than the highest is
any other State whatever. Proceedings bad been in-
stituted to compel Magistrates to answer, who had
refused to take depositions. If that was right, why
institute Parliamentary inquiry? and if wrong, why
interfere with the proceedings now .going on in the
Court of King's Bench on this- subject ? He was
sorry to find Magistrates passing over Publications
which they ought to have taken notice of. Much
had been said of not reading the Riot Act. Before
the 9th of George I. they had laws to disperse un-
lawful Assemblies ; and, that Act only made all fe-
lons who did not disperse an hour after the reading
of it; but did not abrogate the powers vested by
the Common Law in the Magistrates. It was his
clearZdistinct, and unqualified opinion, that, accord-
ing to every .principle of the English Law,. the
Meeting at Manchester was an illegal Meeting.
Lord ERSKINE said, that he was in Bloomsbury-
square in the year 1780, just before Lord Mansfield's
house was burned down. lie had arms, and should
have used them, had that mob attacked him ; but
who would say that the mob at that time was simi-
lar to that of a Meeting for a redress of grievances ?
The 'Marquis of LANSDOWN said; if no other
person would, he should, iu a short time more for
an inquiry into the state of those distresses in the
'country which bad given rise .to so many dreadful
occurrences. He could not but express his abhor-
rence of the mischievous and systematic attempts
whitli have, for the last two years, been made to
turn the people of this country against the Constitti-1
tion. That was a
.profession of political faith, which
ever, public man was called upon to make; and, in
his opihion, no public man was worthy of a share in
'the public confidence, if he did not make it. But,
while they shewed the people they were not asleep at '1
their posts, still they ought not to proceed to mea-,
sures of violence,, but to such conciliatory conduct
as would allay the ferment which now agitates the;
country. He blamed the Noble Viscount (Sid-
mouth), for receiving. the es-parte statements of two
of those Magistrates into whose conduct inquiry was
sought to be made, and then ' - round

be upheld; but he knew of nothing so likely to
bring !heir authority into contempt, as to shew that
they might me a discretionary power, without being
responsible to Parliament for any indiscreet or
proper use of their authority.; A Meeting perfectly
legal in its purpose and object, might become illegal
by cumulative circumstances; but still it was to be
dispersed by legal means ; and if unlawful measures
were resorted to, would any one say that inquiry
should not be instituted ?—( Hear, hear,-"heer).--•
He blamed the arrest of Hunt in the midst of an in-
_ _
flamed

_ and numerous Public Meeting, which, for
aught he knew, had produced all the unhappy con-
sdeiqeuaersntcetsimtheartofromlloawn
try in contention evithyedthYeeaayrs,neodthmeseaPenperyialplleylbtorfuo.thau!shtchtot'efre.ionr.
fore, of-vast coutotquence to satisfy the people of this
country, that Parliament did not lose sight of their
safety, nor forget that they owed them protection,....
'Whatever he might think of the leaders of the Radi-
cals, who had taken advantage-of the distresses of
the times to prey on the people, still the danger did
not proceed from them, but horn a growing belief to
the minds of the middling classes, that the Institu.
tions of the country were not sufficiently perfect to
secure their interests. It was only by inspiring con.
'fidence in these Institutions, that they could expect
to succeed in the present momentous crisis; or save
the country from falling into the hands of wicked and
factious men. By such means it was, and by chewing
that justice and protection should be extended to all,
without distinction, that the country could be saved
from ruin and destruction. But Government was
giving most cause for discontent, when it with.
drew from a highly respectable Nobleman its confi-
dence—a Nobleman, who was best calculated to sof-
ten down the acrimony which might subsist between
the People and the Government.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, it was not his In-
tention ti, go at length at that time into the proceed-
ings at Manchester. But he would defy the Noble
Marquis to shew him an instance in which such pro-
ceedings becaMe the subject of Parliamentary in-
quiry ; and, indeed, lie did not see how it could,
without suspending all proceedings in Croons of
Law, which had, in fact, not only -begun, but were
advanced in a train of fair and judicial investisation,i
With respect to the letter of thanks to the Magistrates
at Manchester, certainly his Majesty's Ministers were
as much parties to it as was his Noble Friend (Sid-
mouth). But the Government would not have been
a party to that letter, had it not been fully convinced,
that by ficts, which could not be controverted;
the conduct of the Magistrates was worthy of
praise ; and he would maintain that there never was
a case which obtained a more thorough investigation
tbau did that, betbre the letter was written which had
called down the obloquy of the Noble Lords. Let
any man remember the marching, in military array,
of bodies of i.x0,000 men, some armed with sticks and
staves, with banners inscribed,,," Equal Representa•
tion, or Death ;" which he would not only maintain
wag illegal, but treasonable, as far as attempting
their purpose by threats and intimidations. But these
were called legal Meetings. He would ask when
such proceedings bad taken place till within these
two years? There was no attempt to stifle this mat-
ter, for the Magistrates might have been proceeded
against either criminally or civilly. Bills were pro.
sented, and ignored by the Grand Jury. Yet the,
heard nothing now of the excellence of Trial by Jury,
from those Noble Lords who were formerly so much
in the habit of eulogizing it. The real fact seemed to
be, that an attempt was made to beat down the Ma.
gistrates. He trusted that the number of the dissa-
tisfied was small; but he knew that all Revolutions
were produced, not by the numbers of the disaffect-
ed, but by the fears of the loyal. The only good
they could therefore do, was to give confidence to
the Magistrates, and protection to the loyal.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, the opinion
of the Grand Jury, as to the conduct of .the Yeo-
manry, could not be a declaration of their opinion
of the Magistrates, under whose orders the Yeomen
acted. It could be no disparagement to the Magis-
trates to have a Parliamentary inquiry into their
conduct, when it was remembered that the Lord
Provost of Edinburgh, and the first Magistrates of
Scotland, had been brought to the Bar of Parliament,
to account for their conduct.
The Earl of CARNARVON could not agree to
the doctrine, that to refuse all inquiry, and to ap.
plaud the conduct of the Magistrates, whether right
or wrong, would be the proper way to allay the dan.
gerous discontent which, it was admitted, prevailed
in the country. Ministers themselves, by t4-ing upon
them to approve of the conduct of the civil and mi-
litary forte at Manchester, had given food for that
discontent and dislike of the existing institutions..
From all he had heard out of doors and in that
House, there appeared to him to be the most ample
grounds for inquiry. The Noble Lords, who would
prejudge nothing, had declared the Manchester
Meeting to be illegal, and even treasonable. If so,
how did they justify their conduct in suffering Meet.
logs; equally treasonableilhallanovcwihnesgdtisedirm,itloiarillibebsterahnenisdeirsuevsateifail
miththfiaet °1
Southfield? fdoe:tonraistht in ions ith
suffering the publishing., for months, of The Meelksa,
h ch and othercalledinfamous
n the
and4e treasonablet°nigi' lhe
publications, which
ns,w
People to take up arms, and not only bring Minis.
tens, but Illustrious Persous to the scaffold ? If they
have found the law, as it now stands, inefficient to the
correction of such abominable proceedings, he would
agree to an extension of the law to meet the present
exigency. If they failed to take all lawful means to
suppress such infamous publications, their responsi-
bility must be great indeed. But instead of prose-
cuting such wicked and factious characters, Minis-
ters had wreaked their puny vengeance on a Noble
Earl, who only wanted that to hallow his fame,
ribose only crime was a constitutional attempt to
renew the harmony and good understanding that
used to exist between the higher and lower orders in
this country. He hoped they would not punish the
deluded People, wißthouciclN of theirthavGinHgA duty
fiNrsuttuaid.tte,mpted to,
brinngethmemarqbauisckof u
to a sense
that he
had hoard, " - _

were on '
thmeedielefnotrsthaetsemevainllc,}lewslttlreLhely
Constitution threatened with clteeti)elsrvetlenirYtttsiic:hetmia:u:niri,dilegearlr:iii'dl;ll?‘iliii,'
sdeerelnsll,pece rtosoinotnuessnet tsh:lrleeasnte9_,;d,oenda.n_cdoin,
dning.their duty. For these reasians he shonhle
the Amendment, and support the original AZ!'
125..:---Adjourned at Half-past Twelve.
HOUSE OF COM MOXS.
At a quarter past two o'clock Sir Tomtit Tv rate
of the Black Roil, sununoned the attendance of the clots;
the House of Peers, to bear the Speech from the Those.
On the return of the SPEAKER, he cconunica.ted
House, that during the recess he had issued Writs for IL'
of Members of Parliament for the following's
Counties of Longford, Kent, lierts, and Kinross •
Hereford and Chichester ; and the liciroophs a A;
Banbury.
Twenty-one new Members took the Oaths zna
A new Writ was ordered for Peterborough, in eke
the Hon. Wm. Lamb, who, since his Election, has
the Stewardship of the Chiltern nundrials.
The Clandestine Outlawry Bill was, accordinz to
read a first tinsel
THE PRINCE REGENTS SPEECH.
The SPEAKER having conitnunicated to
House his attendance in the House of Peen,
copy of the Prince Regent's Speech, which he
procured, to avoid mistakes,—(See flee Lord 4.)
The lion. Mr, SO3IERIS COCKS said, •
as he did, in the sentiments contained in the
just read, and approving, as he did, the rile.
adopted by :Ministers, he rose, with pleasure, r
an Address, in answer to the Sp( ech. On
pic contained its it, there could be no dir:ercnce
opinion, he meant in the regret espressel at the,
tinuation of his Majesty's indisposition. The at
pic was of a different character. He need not
mind the House that they were assembled at an
usual season, in consequence of the di
which had occurred in 'satire parts of the
nor need he remind them that the eyes of the
country were now, in a particular manlier, dii
towards that House. The Hon. Gentleman
ceeded to comment on the late proceedings h
turbed districts, and to enlarge on the excellt
our Constitution, and to contend that it was ,
our first duties to rally round, and de,end th
stitution. He thought whatever political e.ii
Might prevail on either side of the flet,e.
feeling and this opinion all would he 1111,111in'
He contended that a. systematic attempt
made by certain individuals, to undermine and
throw that Constitution; .and all the acts :mil
sures adopted by Ministers, had been adopted
a view to the defence and support of our Coti
Lion and olsti customs. In peaceful times he w:
to see'fair and open opposition to Ministers,
suspicion on the part of the People, whereter
rights and liberties were concerned; but at •
he would ask, had those-who had been most
nent in their opposition been actuated by any
principles? Was it not, rather, apparent that
object had been to alienate the affections of
People from the Government? And to effect ;hi
ject, was it not notorious that these leaders of
had studied to increase and aggravate the ,
of the lower classes in the Manufacturing Dist
In the course of their proceeding., they had h
quently used the word Reform," but what dui
mean ? He seas no enemy to moderate ration:ll E.
form ; but the word in the mouths of these pc:.
who talked, tip` Universal Suffrage and Annual
liaments, was nothing less than a cunt term tot I
volution. In the Meetings which had bee„ he:d
these individuals, was it not notorious that tier
been regularly organized ; that the multitude had
proceeded from town to town in systematic orde
in marching order, with flags and banns, be.t:h
inscriptions wholly inconsistent with the
safety of the loyal and well-disposed put u the ..,:::-
munity? On the subject of the transactions
took place at Manchester, he wished to refram fro:a
giving any opinion at_present—(flear, hear). filr.
he must be permitted to say, that he saw milling :a
the transactions which induced him to think the in-
quiry should be taken out of the usual channel. lie
was also of opinion that no individual, eTecially a
Magistrate, should be put upon his tiial, unless epee
Bills returned by a Grand Jury: and he must
strongly deprecate public opinions expressed by Pub-
lic Meetings upon subjects like this, whi'
tion was pending before the regular trio
Honourable Gentlemat then adverted t,
the Speech which alluded to the increase
litary force. It was a 'subject of severe
in a time of peace abroad a measure shr
for at home which had a tendency to
tion; but the loyal, well-disposed, and peaceable part
of the community, had a claim on us for protection;
and he could not but consider that strong measures
would be best calculated to restore and preserve the
peace of the country. He expressed his hopes that
the measures already adopted by Government would
have the desired effect; and concluded by moving an
Address, which was, as usual, an echo of the Speech.
Mr. EDWARD OUST, in seconding the Addiess,
said he should be obliged to apply for more than or-
dinary indulgence, as this was the first time he had
attempted to speak in pUblic, his eatly habits not
permitting him to practice public speaking; and
again, as he had nothing to offer in excuse for his
presumption in taking the present duty upon him.
The eyes of the Country were now upon their pro-
ceedings. The example of our venerable Sovereign
—his virtues, his eminent services to this counts,
would be long felt. He, it was, who preserved the
people of this country, when, during the prograsi
of revolutionary principles, that people was about so
transfer to the pages. of our own history the follies
and eccentric crimes of the French—(Loud cheer;,'.
The House need not be reminded of the bad spirit
which now appeared in the country; brow-heating
e very Judges on their benches, and abusing all
Wfio were placed in an elevated state; and not only
• •'ng this, but daring to attack the Throne itself.-
- very Member of the Aristocracy was set down as
terruptionist, and all were marked as enemies, save
the Democrats who happened to wear white hats,
and who had lungs strong enough to make speeches
--"veon. Fr - which

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s-aridub.the: turning
becase hroeun(thaean'Ndodblee- had heard nothing which could induce him to think from a waggon. Per the evils which were manifest.
their ends is destroying institution in the flying the right of any person in the country forming the Courts of Law were not open to the ineestiga. ing themselves daily around us, remedies were to be
for this Meeting, but
ii
ay
i i
• 1 the mete gratification of tion of
,the conduct of the Manchester Magistrates ; applied, but that was not the
refoTe he saw no teatem for larllatrteritary them. Fot,~iis part, he lopportunity to spaeak:of
rash and factions individuals. It was his duty, as a ness of Viscount) bad
con het of them Magistrates. He fel Inquiry. Thar bid seen treason abroad, and the said by a Peer of the Realm, according to the daily
subject of a nation long distinguished for devotion to- with the Noble Viscount, that die character of the religion.of the land called a farce, to delude the us- •
prints, that there was in the Crown, a disposhion to
civil liberty, to oppose such asfariona attempts; and Magistrates required. in these dangerous limes, to wary. Were they to pally before they aright re- ,encroaoh on the lib (ties of the Peelle; If such a.l
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