Star.
London, England, 1827-02-27 00:00:00

'counter, when he undertook to remedy notorious abuses,
or to- make any improvement in the law, however
necessary. It was very well for a Minister, in the
benevolence of his heart, and in the sagacity of his
mind, to bestow his attention In the closet upon
such reforms; and then to briag the result of his la-
bours before theHouse,conident of a majority,the larger'
portion of which would be composed of men who ten•
years age denounced as Jacobins all who proposed
similar changes and reformations in the law—(Cheers
from the Opposition). It was well for a Minister to'do
this when his majority would be further swelled, per-
Jsaps, by some generous adversary who came down to
his support after ransacking his vocabulary for terms
of gratitude, praise, and admiration—(Hear, hear).—
Far
different was the fate of those who came forsiard
with similar propositions from the other side. When
be had submitted to the clippings and cuttings down
required by one and another of his opponents, until
his• proposition was reduced to such a state, that its.
or iginal object was scarcely to be discovered ; and when,
after it had been put by from time to time to make way
for the ordinary business of the House, then csme down
some Member of the other side, strong in the majority,
always reedy to back him, strong in the knowledge that a
large ntunber of families represented in that House had
.an interest in supporting abuses—and an opposition to
the whole principle of the measure was declared. Thus
tired by protracted delays, baillfd at every point, he
abandoned the pursuit of his object in disgust, and
abuses were tecognised and confirmed, to the destruc-
tion of all the best parts of our Constitution—(Hear.) -
Mr. PALMER said he should not have tres-
passed upon the attention of the House, but that a con-.
siderable nurnhet of hiS constituents had requested him,
to press the necessity of applying some remedy to this•
evil. If the House would allow him, he would- state
one ease arising out of the Election proceedings at'a
Borough in the county which he had the honour to to
present (Wallingford, in Berkshire). He had received a
letter from the Mayor and Corporation of this Borough,
ats4 he believed that a similar one had been addressed to
the Noble Lord; It stated, that the time having expired,
during which the laws ef the House admitted the presen-
tation of a Petition, an individual called the Miller, went
round and delivered to each voter a packet containing
201.—This money was avowedly paid as the condition
on which the vote had been given, and the transaction
took place openly in the day without any attempt at
keeping it secret. Yet these persons took the bribery
oath without scruple, and under the knowledge and_
promise that "the Miller" was to call upon them in
the usual way. This was represented to him to be the
state of the Borough in question. Whether the allega-
tions could be proved or not, he could not undertake to
say. But perhaps the House might be informed by the
Hon. Members themselves--(Hear and laughter). At
all events he would ask, whether this was not a case
which ought to be brought forward?—(Cheers from
both sides of the House). He would not undertake to
s iy, whether or not the Noble Lord's was the best mea-
sure which could be devise& but at least it appeared to
bim calculated to act as a check upon these disgraceful
practices.

Mr. C. WYNN said, that the necessity of the Noble
Lord's proposition -
ther the practice
whether there

evil? As it
not be
hid been

to the application
tension of ti

petitioning, that was a remedy which could as well be
supplied in conjunction with the existing laws, as by
establishing a new one. He for one should not object
to a propJsition lot enabling parties to petition the Hou
within a certain time after the giving of money could
proved; and if proved,the Member might by the decisi
of the House be then unseated. If the case whith the'
Hoa. Member for Berkshire had stated could be proved,
he bad no difficulty in saying that it was.a case for the cone
sideration of Parliament. He would not pledge himself
upon the course which be thought the House should
take in dealing with it; but it was a case for the House:
to dispose of according to the circumstances which
should turn out in proof, as they had in the cases of
Shoreham, Cricklade, Aylesbury, and Cii ampound. H.
had beard no reason assigned why a Standing Cool-
mittee was necessary for this purpose, nor any answer*
to the argumentitive speech of his Hon. and Learned
Friend (Mr.L. Fostrr). Why was the Grenville Co
mittee established, but to form a judicial tribunal ?
And he had never yet heard of a case in which that
tribunal had proved inefficient. Upon these grounds,
he thought it better to stand by the mode of trial whiCh
they already possessed. The main question before the
House was, whether they should appoint a Standing
Committee for purposes already provided for by the
laws of the House. If any such case as that *presented
by the Hon. Member for Berkshire were broughp for-
ward and proved, he was confident there would be no
difficulty in dealing with it under the existing regu-
lations. •

Sir J. NEWPORT said, it appeartd to be the almost
unanimous wish of the House that the disgraceful prat-
tire of bribery at elections should be put an end to.
Yet notwithstanding the Grenville Act, or any other
existing laws, it was notorious that the grossest bribery
and corruption continued to be practised. He begged
to recall to the recollection of the House that about 14
years ago he proposed a measure for taking away the
oath of bribery from the electors, and administering it
to the elected. He proposed to administer an oath to
every candidate, by which he bound himself; neither
by himself nor his agents, to give any reward of money,
or promises of office or employment, or any promise of
a valuable consideration whatever. The House in its
wisdom thought proper then to reject that measure.
But if they were in earnest in their desire to get rid of
the stigma which now attached to the House, they
would not again refuse to adopt it; and if his Noble
Friend's motion was rejected, he pledged himself again
to bring it forward.
• Mr. Secretary PEEL thooght the speech of the 'Hon.
Baronet not a very powerful vindication of his Noble
Friend's proposition, for he had intimated that he had a
better proposition in view, and which he would propose
to the House in the event of the Noble Lord's measure
being rejected. He would accept the terms of the Ho,.
airoaet, and oppose the Noble Lord's proposition for
the sake of obtaining the more effectual measure which
the Honourable Baronet had iu reserve. He would
admit that nothing could be more honourable than the
oblivion of party considerations, which Gentlemen of
the Opposition had always shewn, when they thought
the intere.ts of the country at stake—(Cheers from
the Ministerial benches.) He could not concur in the
censure that bad• been passed upon those with whom

he acted. They had no diEpo:ition to resist .the,
useful propositi •ns of those who were opposed to
4em in patties. He had Dever opposed the proposal
tot rectify the constitution of Juries in cases between the
Crown and individuals. So far from this, he had in-
troduced the Bill abolishing the power of the Crown
t. nominate Special Juries, in case of libel, or in other
cases where the Crown was at issue with the subject.
When the Noble Lord brought in -a eill for the Re-
covery of Small Debts, he (Mr. Peel) had, from the
moment, given it his most cordial support, and he
given no proof that he was disinclined to afford the
N le Lord every access to theofficial information be
ta
required.
~' Whilst be thought it would be most unfair
r ato resist prOpotal for any reform or correction of
.s.
chews, because-it was brought forward by a Member
,of the Opposition, he must at the same time say, that
it would be equal folly if, he admitted any proposi.
tion of Which he did not approve, merely because
it originated in the opposite side of the House. No
man would stand op with a brave face, and advo-
cate the species of corruption now complained of;
but it was nevertheless necessary to inquire if the
mode of cure were proper. It was more safe to
reject than to accept the present preposition. The
proposed Committee was net to report t. the House
Mrs fads of a cash, but they were required by the words
a the proposition to report their opinions. If, then, the
House were to coroe. to the discussion of any case upon
each a report, would they not enter upon that discus-
sion with their minds Prejudiced by the opinions of
those who were to be the Meinbers of this Committee?
According to the words of the Resolution, they were
be a selection of the Members most respectable for
heir probity, sagaciiy, and iotegiity. Was not this a
post invidious distinction? Every aria was sent to
that House In; his Constituents, under the idea that
equal privileges belonged to all its Members Each
Representrire intered the Legislature with the ins.
pression that he was 'on ae equal footing with men of
the highest situation and highest talents to be found
within its walls. He therefore gave Kis unfettered opi-
nion upon every subject as well as the most dignified
Member of the House. The more decided were the
distinctions to be cast upon the Committee for the pro-
bity and sagacity of its Members, the more influential
would be the opinions entertained in its Reports upon
' the subsequent decision of the House. But the Com-
mittee was to have the power of proceeding upon ex.
Lparte statements, without the persons concerned in its
decisions having de power to challenge,.or object even
to their most bitter enemies, who might 'constitute i
portion of its Members. No similarity existed between
such a Committee and a Grand Jury.. One of the
Resolutions of the Noble Lord was, that all Pe-
titions which should be presented to the House
after the expiration of the ordinary time for prea
senting such Petitions, should be referred to a Select,
Committee, without any question whatever. This would
be to appoint a permanent Inquisition. It was at
that moment undetermined whether the inquiries before
the Committee were to be conducted at the expense of
the parties complaining, or of the public. No time for
any of its proceedings were specified in the Resolutions;
the - who entered their chime—

. .)---
If the Hon. Member for Berkshire Meant to say dis-
tinctly that there was a borough in which six months or
a year after the election a man went round with 201.
notes, to be given to the voters he (Mr. Peel) could as-
sure him, that he would lend his hearty co-operation to
soy regular tiquiry if the facts were stated in a Petition,
ppd a prima facie case established. He would consent
tO the examination of the miller himself, is order that,
die investigation might be as full and as effectual as
isoisible—(Hear.)
• Mr. B. MARTIN said he felt himself bound to sup-
port the Resolutions of the Noble Lord. He would,
however, recommend to the Noble Lord to withdraw his
Resolutions for the present, for the purpose pf conferring
with those Members on his side the House who were wil-
ling to prevent. the existence of the practice. But why
aonfixte the operation of the Resolutions to Boroughs,
*ben it was notorious that corruption was infinitely more
atrocious. He could state, and was ready to prove, that
an Under Secretary of State went into a county and
opened a bank for the payment of all the ex-
penses of a candidate whom he called his man ;
promised offices to his supporters, and even pro-
mised a Peerage. He would prove these facts before
a Committee, so help him GoD. The person who did
this was the Marquis of Clanricarde, Under Secretary
for Foreign Affairs, and he would o ithin a month prove
the facts before a Committee, and apply fen- a special
Report against the Marquis Clanricarde.—(Hear and
laughter.)
The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER said,
that if the Hon. Member for Galway meant to charge
his Majesty's Government with having taken any part
in the proceedings which he had stated to have taken,
place, the accusation was most unjust.—(Hear, hear.)
He • said that, without any reference to the forty
veers' support 'which the Hon. Gentleman said he
~/sad given to the Administration ; and he must also say,
that if the Hon. Gentleman gave his support to the re-
solution, because lie thought that he had been treited
with ingratitude, such support would hardly be worthy
lof the acceptance of the Noble Lord—(Laughter.) He
I(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew nothing what-
over of the merits of the case which had been alluded to
by the Hon. Member for Galway; but as. that Hon.
Gentleman had stated One side of. the question only. it.
wouldriortri tio'rmich to call upon the House to sus-
pend its judgment with respect to the conduct attributed
to a Noble Lord—(Hear, hear.) And he thought the
House would feel it the more necessary to do so when
it learned, that the Non. Member for Galway was him-
.self the party petitioned against, and was charged with
aving committed as many offences as a candidate
would commit—(Laughter, and hear).
- Lord MILTON thought that his Noble Friend would
do well to adopt the suggestion which bad been thrown
out with respect to counties, and if he had any doubt
upon the subject, the few sentences which had fallen
(torn the 'Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Would have satisfied him of the propriety of the ahem-
lion. It appeared toshim that the Right Hon. Secre
tary for the Home Department had entirely mistaken
the scope and purport of the Resolution proposed by his
Noble Friend. He maintained that the argument used
by the NOble Lotd near him (Lord J. Russell) was per•
Tettli Correct; the Committee proposed would act but

the same way as a Grand Jury.; mad he was of opi-
aion that the statement made by the Hon. Member lor
'Berkshire, was a strong proof of the necessity of the
'measure proposed. Should such a measure as that
hissed at by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn).—
'that of receiving Petitions after the f urteen days had
!spired be tesorted to, he should most certainly ap-
Erove of it ; but in the mean time the Resolution of his
Noble Friend should have his hearty support.
Mr. C. PELHAM did nor concur in opinion si 11
the Right Hon. Gentleman oppdtite, when he proposed
Committeesthat should be appointed only as cases arose
-'but he thought that there shocld be some permanent
tribunal, and should therefore support the Resolution'.
Mr. WYNN said, it was neither his wish, nor tt e
wish of those around him, to stifle measures calcithred
to remove the evil complained of; but he thought the
motion of the Noble Lord open to objections. If The
House wished, he would move the following, which
might meet the views of all pantie.:—That all persons
who shall question future returns of Members, on any
allegation of bribery or corruption, and shall, in peti.
don, specifically allege any payment of money or other
toward, since the time of such return, may question the
same at any time within 28 days alter the date of sub
payment, it the House be sitting, or if the House be not
sitting, then in 14 days after it shall meet—(Cheers.)
Lord MILTON alloired that it would be a treat
improvement oo the present state of the laws, but tt did
not go so far as the proposition of his Noble Friend.
He did not perfectly understand whether the resolution
extended to uses respecting Boroughs, orMembers only ?
Mr. WYNN.—Memhers only.
. Lord MILTON thought the restriction unwise, and
it gave him fresh reason to support most strenuously
the Resolution of his Noble Friend.
Mr. ABERCROMBY declared that he had never
wi:aessed a more idle debate than had taken place that
evening—(Hear, hear). He called it an idle debate, be-
cause in reality there was little or no difference between
the parties who appeared to be opposed to each other-
The House was in fact unanimous in its opinion oa the
oubieet—(Cr ies of "No,no"). He preferred the plan pro-
• • by his Noble Friend, and he did so, because he
, • • • ght a Committee appointed on the first day of the
• tit would be less likely to be biassed by party
ing, than would a Committee chosen after a coin-
. int had been made.
Mr. BARING should support the Resolution of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn), in preference to
that of his Noble Friend, becatim it was Less vague, and
• nd the parties in necessary and just recognizance..
Pe was decidedly of opinion that the wide range taken
by the Resolution of his Noble Friend might,. where
rty spirit ran high, prove extremely annoying and
mjurious to any Member who happened to vote with the
Mindrity, and expressed his opinion with force sod
boldness. The House would readily conceive how easy
it would be for a party to raise frivolous cases against
those Members, especially as the Resolution of his Noble
Friend would attach no responsibility to the Petitioners.
Mr. It. PALMER explained. Hp would also take
that opportunity of stating, that as the resolution of the
Right Hon. the President of the Board 6f Controul
ap-
likely efficit • and would em-

agreed
who had attributed considerable merit to the resolution
of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn), but he
could not conceal from himself that it differed mate-
rially from that which he had hoped would have met
with the sanction of the House. His own resolution
west to facilitate the disfranchisement of Boroughs where
gross corruption existed, but that suggested by the
Right Hon. Gentleman dia not go to that extent; it
touched Members Only. And he would take that op-
portunity of explaining why he had not inserted the
word Counties. It was became his proposition was not
so much to unseat Members as it was to prevent cow-
ruption in general. He was not desirous of inconve-
niencing the House by calling for a division, but he
still thought that the resolution he had proposed would
prove more beneficial than that suggested by the Right
Honourable Gentleman. . .
The resolution proposed by Lord ALTHORP was then
put from the chair ; and the
.SPZAIICIR declared in.fas
your of the Noes ; a division, however, was called for,
and strangers were ordered to withdraw, but before the
Gallery was cleared, the Noble Lord withdrew his
resolution.

Mr. WYNN then formally proposed his resolution,
and it was seconded.

Lord ALTHORP said, that however much he might
regret the rejection of his own resolution. as it had been
rejected, he should give his cordial support' to that
moved by his Right Hon. Friend.
Lord MILTON said, that the resolution proposed
might be very excellent, and it might be quite the con-
trary. He did not think that the House ought to be
called on trr adopt such a resolution until it had tad
time to fully consider shat would be its effect, or
whether it would have any effect at all. He was
therefore decidedly %pored. to -the hasty adoption
of the resolution, and thought the House should
adjourn in order that the Hon. Members Might hair
an opportunity of inquiring into it, and ascertaining its
real worth.

Mr. Secretary PEEL was prepsred to support the
resolution of his Right Hon. Friend, on the ground that
it clid.not go so lar as the resolution proposed by•the
Noble Lord. Nor could he see that the House would
tequire any further time to come to a decision on its
me. its. The Hon. and Learned Member for Caine had
argued that there was no difference between the pro-
positions which had that evening been brought before
the Houit; but if he (Mr. Peel) had not formed a
very material difference between the measure proposed
by his Right Hon.Ftiend and that proposed by the Noble
Lord, he most certainly could never have iupporteil it.
A proof of its beaeicial operao,on would be that it
would embrace such cases as Wallingford, and that to
in a. way which neither the Borough nor the Sitting
Members could justly object to, for it would give the
complainants an opportunity of having the merits of
their case fairly tried; while it would protect the Sitting
Member from frivolous and merely vexatious proceed-
ings, because it would compel the Petitioning party to
enter into proper recognizance'; in fact the same secu-
rities would be required as were necessary under the
Grenville Act—(Hear).
Mr. HOBHOIJSE would advise bit Noble and Hon
Friends (Lord Milton and Mr. Abetcremby) to acc4pt
the boon offered by the Right Hon. the Ptesideot of the

C. W /CNN said, that the necessity of the Noble the persons who enticed their charges were to be bound peered to him likely to prove efficl nt, and would em.
proposition rested upon these questions t—whe- ,in no recognizances. lithe Noble Lord.had proceeded brace the case he had noticed, it should receive his stip-
ie practice of bribery existed ? and if it did,— by Bill, he would have been obliged to specify all these port, unless the Noble Lord persevered in continuing his
er there were laws provided sufficient cornett the regulations. He could not persuade hilltself that this resolution before the House; of coarse, however, should
As it appeared to him, the latter question could proposition ought tole seriously entertxided. The Hod. he do so, he (Mr. Pelmet) was ready to gate him the
decided, at least in the negative, until some vases Member for Berkshire indeed mot the motion with am inepport be had prosise—(llear.)-14 regarded the
en substantiated, and the law had proved'unequal individual ease; he (Mr. Peel) did not know on which' resolution of the Right Hon. Gentleman as a Acheloos
applicatiOn of a remedy. With regard to the ex► side the Hon. Gentlemen sat, bet he hoped they ,had extension of the Grenville Act.
of time beyond the fourteen days allowed for heard the invitation, and would accept it—(Hear.)— Lord ALTHOkP agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
'