Star.
London, England, 1827-06-27 00:00:00

In rnaking these observations, he might not be spit*
*ceded speak as a radical or as it professed economist.
ge was by no means an advocate for paltry savings—
but Re did not wish to have thesilitems come up without
°lsere/ratio& Ile had lately read a speech in which it
was said that the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of
the Government had, for the last five years, obtained
such complete influence over persons in another place,
that no animadversion was ever attempted to be made
upon any expenditure which had received hi. sanction.
The next return referred to the pensions of foreign M-
oisters, and upon this he would only remark, that an
increase of 5,0001. had taken place. He would, how.
ever, as bearing upon this return, state a case, but as it
related to himself, he would not enter into particulars,
because he considered that he would not be justified in
taking up their Lordships time with anything of a
private or personal nature. He would, therefore,
content himself with distinctly stating, that he had
been inlnted upon that particular return. The Fo.
reign Office had anonymously, or at least unneces-
sarily, thrown charges against him into a channel which
prevented On from repelling and denying them in the
way he would have desired. He had held a correspen.
deuce upon the subject with the Noble Lord at the head I
of the Foreign Office, and if the Noble Lord would think
proper to proclaim that correspondence, he (the Mar-
quis of Londondenpy)' would be. perfectly satisfied to
have his conduct judged by it, and to have it decided
whether he had or had not been unjustifiably calum-
niated. He would not take up their Lordships' time
with farther observations upon this subject, but would
revert iu she re►uros. Ia the Twit 1821, the total ex
penditure of the Foreign Office amounted to 324,3021. r
in the year 1826, it amounted to 581,8364—the total
increase, therefore, amounted to 207,5341.—and allow-
ing 140,0001. for the expense incurred by ippoint-
Ments, kc. in South America, there was a clear excess
of upwaids of 70,0001. Now, my Lords, I conceive that
as it is well understood that the First Lird of the Trees.
mulls about to return to his place, the circumstances
of the Right Hon. Gentleman's leaving the Foreign
Office in a different situation from that in which he ob-
tained it from his predecessor, called for the expression
of some opinion upon their part. He felt th it he ought
to apologise to their Lordships for troubling them so
long upon this occasion. He wished, however, to offer
a few observations to them upon the returns he had
moved for; and he also wished to take the opportunity
of again •stating the opinion he had already several
times expressed, with respect to the late changes in the
Administration, and of declaring his most uncompro-
mising hostility to the Government, as it was at that
time constituted.

utter
by th,

Viscount DUDLEY and WARD asked, across the
table, if k was the Noble Marquis's intention toconclude
with any motion?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY replied that
it was not,

Viscount DUDLEY and WARD then rose, and said
that the Noble Marquis had moved, with great pomp,
for a vast number of returns ; and that, although the
papers he had expressed so intense an anxiety to see had
been lying for a considerable time upon the table
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY interrupted the
Noble Viscount, and said, the last of the returns he had
moved for had only been laid upon the table within the
last two or three days —(Order,•order I)

Viscount DUDLEY and WARD resumed.—The,
greater number of these papers had been lying for a
length hf time upon the table, and yet, after all thel
pomp and haul. with which the Noble Martinis had
introduced his motion, he only then came up to offer a
few unconnected and desultory remarks upon a parti-
cular branch of his Majesty's Govetament, without bat-,
in; given any public Amite of his intention, or without
!stinging forward any specific proposition. He felt that
under these circumstances, he should be justified in not
giving any answer to the desultory—unconnected—and
according to Parliamentary usage, be believed, unfair,
I remarks of the Noble Marquis. In using this language,
he begged the Noble Marquis to understand that it was
not his intention, or his wish, to offer him the least of-
fence, but he conceived that the course pursued by him
(the Marquis of Londonderry) warranted this language
upon his part ; for their Lordships would recollect that
the papers had been asked for with considerable pomp,
as if to preface some motion of the last importance, and
as if some great discovery had been made—
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose, bet was interrupted
by load cries of " Order!" and resumed his seat.
Viscount DUDLEY and WARD continued—The
Noble Marquis said he wished to have the patronage
of the_ Foreign Office laid before the country, and that
he was desirous of instituting a comparison between the
administration of the Foreign Office in the year 1822
and in the year 1826, or, in other words, between the
administration of Lord Castlereagh and Mr. Canning.'
Now the result was, that there was hardly any increase
of expenditure except such as could be fully accounted
for. In the first place, there had been an increase in
Ve expense of the consular department, owing to an
arrangement which bpd not been carried into effect in
the time of Lord Castlereagh, although it had received
bit sanction—(Hear, hear). The arrangement he al-
luded to was, that of substituting salaries for fees. It
was not for him to say whether this was tight or wrong,
beneficial or otherwise, but it had been adopted by Par-
liament, and was one of the causes of the increased ex-
penditure. Another increase had arisen from another
cause—but from a cause in which the country must re-
joice, since it arose from the extended commerce of
Great Britain—from the increase of our foreign rela-
tions—from our increased intercourse with foreign
States, and from the growth of the civilized world—
(Great cheering). It was scarcely necessary for him to
say that he alluded to the missions to the States of
South America. These were the causes which had
created the increase in the expenditure of the Foreign
Office. The documents in proof of this had been laid
before the other House, where everything had been ex-
plained, and he contended that they completely ac-
counted for the whole increase. It could not be ex-
pected that he would enter into the details but if any
Noble Lord should choose to do so he would find that
this was the truth, within a small sum. There was
another point upon which it might, perhaps, be neces-
sary for him to say a few words. The N ible Mar-
quis bad commented upon the expense of the House
for the Foreign Secretary in Downing-street. The
expense was forty•two thousand pounds, which consisted
of three several items—one of which, for the purchase
of the ground amounted to 18,0001. Now the fact was,
that au alteration had been contemplated so far back as
the administration of Lord Grenville; and if a proper
house was to be had, it mast have been of course neces-
sary to pay a considerable sum foe it. And he con-
tended, that if the Principal Secretary of State fin
Foreign AtElits wit to have a Isom at all, it ought

ksg hit sitanion In the country..wHe
es, to ca 4 their lordships' attention
at um Foreign Secretaries of aD the
in Erorope had houses given to them
; that the foreign AMbassadors in many
I had also houses greeted to them; and chat the
house about which the Noble Marquis complained was
not at ll to 'be compared to the palace with which
the Noble Marquis was supplied at Vienna. There
was one other point upon which he was desirous
of offering a few remarks; but he feared he could
scarcely succeed in making himself intelligible, un-
less their Lordships had some previous knowledge
of the subject. The Noble Marquis had spoken of
himself as injured, and had (if he had understood
him rightly) complained of having been calumniated
through the medium of the Foreign Office. The Noble
Marquis had said, that if he (Viscount Dudley and
Ward) would lay the papers before the House, he
would be satisfied to have his conduct judged by them;
but he (Viscount Dudley and Ward) felt thy it was not
the regular way to lay these papers before the House,
or else he would feel most happy in doing sr. As far
as the history of the transaction went, to which allusion
had been made. he had no objection, since it was the
desire of the Noble Marquis, to lay the whole of it be-
fore their Lordships. The facts were simply these:—
an applitation was made by the Noble Loa for a pen-
don, to which he considered himself entitled, in consi-
deration of the time of his services. That application
ins made by a Gentleman who had long held the sites-
din of Under Secretary of State for the Foreign De-
partment, to the Principal Secretary for Foreign Affairs.
That Light Hon. Gentleman naturally did not wish to
decide upon the merits of this application, or did net
like to involve himself in any personal question with
the Noble Lord, or to be compelled to set a value sipte
his services. This application, therefore, was, by thel
desire of Mr. Canning, referred to Lord Liverpool. If
he mistook not, too. it was renewed, end it was thee
that the Earl of Liverpool made a remark, which had'
keen communicated to the public through the medium,
Of the newspapers—

The Marqu'is of LONDONDERRY—Through the
medium of the Foreign Office.
Viscount DUDLEY and WARD resumed, sad asked,
how it was that the Noble Marquis could say by what
channel it had been communicated to the public press,
or how he could himself account los the knowledge
he had obtained with respect to the Secret Service
Money ? By what right could, the Noble Marquis pre-
tend to know anything about the Foreign Office, or
how could be have obtained his information, except by
the most gross and scandalous breach of faith upon rte
part of some person in that office ?—(Hear, bear). Tate
remark of Lord Liverpool upon the transaction was,
" This is too bad." He did not pretend to say whether
the Noble Earl had been right or wrong in making this
remark ; he only meant to state the facts which had
been so loudly called for, and so anxiously desired,' by
the Noble Marquis. He could assure their Lordships
that it never had been his intention to say a single
word upon the subject ; and he certainly never would
have brought it forward, if he had not been so repeat-
edly taunted and called on by the Noble Marquis to do
so. Even now he felt extreme reluctance in speaking
upon it ; but it was impossible that be could allow Noble
Lot ds logo away with false impressions. He could safely
deny that there had been anything unjust, or that the
breach of confidence had taken place to any thing like
the extent complained of. He did not know precisely
how the Noble Earl's remark bad found its-way to the
press; but he agreed a ith the Noble Marquis in thinking
there could be no doubt that It must have been front the
Foreign Office. But he would now ask in what way
was jt a matter of that strict confidence it had been de-
scribed to be? A private letter was sent by the Noble
Lord to an Under Secretary of State, who transferred
it to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, with whom, by
the way, the Noble Marquis was neither upon habits
of intimacy nor of confidential communication; the
Secretary of State transferred it to the Prime Minister„,
who sent it back to him, and it was deposited in the'
Foreign Office. Thise were the circumstances of the'
case, and this it was which was mentioned as such an
extraordinary breach of confidence. For his part he
could not allow that there was any gross breach of con-
fidence, or could scarcely acknowledge the fairness of
the charges brought by the Noble Marquis, when he con-
sidered by what means that information, which was
that night given to their Lordships, must have been ob-
tained. He did wit desire to censure the Noble Lord, nor
to attach any blame to the course he had adopted. The
transaction was one upon which he did not desire to el-
press an opinion. How far the Noble Lord was right
or wrong, it was not for him to say. He had acted, he
(Lord Dudley and Ward) presumed, upon a sense of
duty, and on that he never would be desirous to pass
censure. The observations, however, which the -Noble
Lord had made, and which he had not followed
up with any motion, were not of that natute to call for
any minute explanations upon his part: and even if the
Noble Lord had furnished him with a better clue, he
would not conceive himself called upon to go through
the details. At to the motives of the Noble Marquis,
in calling for the returns, he would not speak, because,
he believed, that it was not parliamentary to allude to
the motives which might be supposed to induce a Mem.'
ber of either House to pursue a particular line of con-
duct ; but he hoped he might be permitted to observe,
that the papers had been called for with the tendency to
cast a censure upon the Right Hon. Gentleman at the
head of the Government, whose great and only crime it
was, to hold the chief seat in his Majesty's Councils. The
observations and motions of the Noble Lord had been
thrown out with a vain hope of being able to fix upon the
Right Hon. Gentleman the charge of being predigal in
the expendirure of the public money—(Hear, hear 9--
He had taken some trouble to make inquiries upon the
subject, and the result was simply this—the Right Hon.
Gentleman at the head of the Government had for up-
wards of thirty years served the Crown, bringing to that
service,_ it will be admitted, tolerable abilities, and in-
dustry that has been seldom equalled, and never was
excelled. For his services during this long period of
years, that Right Hon. Gentleman received 60,0001.—
The Noble Marquis opposite served the Crown for ten
years, and he received for his services one hundred end
three score thousand pounds--(Hear, and laughter). He
did not mean to say any thing disrespectful of the ser-
vices of the Noble Marquis, of shich he was no judge
—for he really was not acquainted with them. He
therefore did not mean to express the slightest doubt
but that they were cheap at the money. But what he
did mean to say was, that when attempts were made,
even by indication, to fix upon the Right Hon. Gentle-
man at the head of the Administiation, the charge of
being a prodigal servant, it was but fair and right that
the public should be put in possession of the se

!that they might juage whose services had been most in
proportion to the recompense he had received—(Hear,
h-ar I)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he hoped
he might be excused for again troubling their Ltd.
ships with a few words In reply to what hit fallen from
the Noble Viscount oppmite. He could not help think.
ing that the Noble Viscount had taken an extra& dinary
line in answer to the papers and his statements u.mi
them. He had alluded merely to item. in the eeeneau.
but the lioble Viscount had chosen to go into per.onaj
.tier, which he haJ purposely abstained from mizint
up with the general subject. With respect tothe charges
which had been brought agar .t him when he eilk.d
upon the Noble Viscount to bring the tram ction fop
ward, he hai also tilled upon him for a declaration of
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bus the truth
1.
hut instead of complying with that request, the lgoble
Viscount had gone into a garbled exposition, which was
calculated to -give any thing incept the correct and
proper view of the case. He would not, however, net.
withstanding what had passed, take up their Lordshipsr
time with a matter purely personal, farther than by
leading to them a single letter. It was ore which he
had addressed to the Noble Viscount immediately after
seeing the charges which had been brongh: against
him in the newspapers :

. .
Hat Manna Reuse, May 14,1W7.
Me Due Loan—Raving just read is the old num DM
of today a libel upon my character' in which it is stated, that upon
an application of Woe for a pensions • wt of the prescribed form,'
Lord Liverpool bad barmen indoned thew weeds—. Tkie is toe
bad," I feel pervaded that you will inform me, whetherjo your
opinion, It be possible that, accidentally or mbitterke the aloe aver
winch you preside can have been nem/earl to such a statement? If
the feet be trot, it win sbew that confidential or official documeuts
' are° commenkoted for indirect purposes of personal attack, wo
where they an be met and answered, but by throwing them law
anonymous channels. Whatever may be the character given of my
proceedings in Parliament, I disclaim any tido( but being direct
and open against public men and public measures; and I despite
any other mode too much to have recourse to it.
I request, therefore, before I take any farther stir that you will
bare the goodness to favour me with an answer to the goer, I knee
made; and that you will forward one, as soon as poodles, espies of I
all the correspondence relating to my application for the pistils,
together with Mr. Cemning's Wier, as to my services, an my reds
nation of the Vienna Embassy.
(1111044) VANE LONDONDRRRT.
—To that letter he received an answer from the Noble
Lord (Dudley), completely denying the truth of what
had been charged, and, in consequence, he had cone.
dered the matter at an end, and urtect no further in it.
Their Lordships would, however, judge of his surprise,
at receiving, in seven or eight drys alter that tosser,
letter from the Noble Secretary, stating that he (1,44
Londonderry) was not to draw any inference from his
former letter, as it was found that the official cones.
pondence upon the subject was actually in existence.
On receipt of that letter, he wrote to the Noble Lord
the letter he would then read.
Nolderneme Home, Staid.
Mr Loan—My absence at Chiswick, until a late hotel= eight,
prevented my answering your Lordship's letter sower. As knee
appears that a 'private' and 'confidential' remark of Lord Liverpool's
arising out of my private communication to Mr.Planta,on my resit
nation at the Vienna Embassy (of the existence of which, or !eyelet
like it, I never could have the lean intimatien),bas, after a laps at
six or seven years, been anonymously conveyed to the rabbets,
the Foreign Office, cad has now been, for the first time,' eikiser

eemeaunguted to me, I think it necessary for me to place Mi.
direct attacks at defiance, and to thew, lst, from the records In dr
Foreign Once, that all the diplomatic servants of the Crown it.
calved passim's, with the esceptices of myself, wbe gave up ts
Lord Liverpool's nomination a Military Goverment of Ate
a-year for life, 'Without any equivalent. is 1521, the year mode/
my retirement front the Vienna Embassy.—std. To thew dead.
melon in which my humble serekee,MOkary and dipionmitotare
held by my Sovereign and superiors, during thirty years' sink',
sad especially daring She period I held the situation of tea
jesty's Ambassador at Vienna.
(Signed) VANE LONDONDERRY.
—What he chiefly complained of was, that it was not
until air five or six years bad elapsed that that note
of Lord Liverpool's had come out, and then it came is
the first instance anonytnously from the Foreign Mu;
and, secondly, it was made publics .lely in consequence
of the lice of conduct he bad thought right to putsueitt
that House. No individual, be believed, had ever bees
so treated. He had also wished to avoid all personal
subjects, but that was not to be done, and he thanked
the Noble Lord for the kindness heltacl displayed that
night, but had much rather that it should be exercised
in another way, namely, by a publication of the whole
correspondence.
Lord DUDLEY and WARD said, that be had never
dace alluded to the subject, nor wished to do so, until
the Noble Marquis himself had commenced the subject.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that the conversa-
tion which had t4ken place was extremely irregular.
He was not aware that it was the intention of his Noble
Friend (the Marquis of Londonderry) to make any ob-
servatioos upon the papers which were laid upon the
table, and, in point of fact, there was no ca., opus the
face of them which could justify any charge against the
Prime Minister for any insufficiency in his duty; bete*
at the same time, he fe!t it necessary td observe ups
the concluding remark of his Noble Friend opposite
(Lord Dudley), in comparing the remuneration received
by Mr. Canning for his services with that received by
his Noble Friend near him (Lord Londonderry). Hi
Noble Friend opposite knew that it was the policy of
this couotry (whether good or bad, he could not say),
not to attach very high remuneration to official situa-
tions in this country, as it Was thought that the dignity,
the honour, and the power and patronage attached to
those offices, were fully sufficient rewards. There was
a great difference, however, with respect to ambers*.
dorial situations, and Ambassadors stood more in the
light of repre.entatives of the wealth and dignity of the
country, than as deriving the least personal advantage—
a truth, of which be was perfectly convinced. As, how•
ever, the Noble Lord had alluded to the sums so given.
be would call to his Noble Friend's recollection, that tha
First Lord of the Treasury had once occupied a situation
similar to that of Lord Londonderry ; and also, that the
rate of remuneration given to that Gentleman during.
his stay at Lisbon, had been much greater than that et
Lord Londonderry, during his embassy at Vienna.
The conversation here dropped.
The tali of LAW:SERE/A LB presented, Petition from cersis
Owners and Occupiers of Land la the county of Suffolk, 55.44
the Bonded Corn Bill wow before the Home.
Earl STAN HOPE presented a Padden for the imposition cif
Tan on Foreign Wool, from the Owners and Occupiers 1400:
Acres of Land, who were also Owners of 50,000 Sheep. in a
around Marlborough Dawes.
His Louisa', presented similar Petitions front the Farmer
.„
Graziers, and Breeders of Cable of liackley and Warms in "-
County of Suffolk.

miasma on wane PROCNE ELL.
Lord TENTEKUSN, after a few observations, sieved al
second read og of the Attest and Mesas Process SUL
Lord RSDESDI LS oeieeted to the SUL There were a neither
of persons, his Lordship said. who bad some property whkh odd
trot be taken is executioe, and who wow about getting into debt
,or small sums within the limits of the law of arrest. and thus sot
ipportunity -was given of defrauding tradesmen. lie knew one ir*
lividstl who had lived in that way for forty yeas—(lies! gni;
laugh). Ile tboied, at the titre time, nt. o'ijmtion a "

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