Star.
London, England, 1829-02-10 00:00:00

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• TUESDAY' EVENING, •FEBS,VARY 10, 1829. . .
, • Pities Szviptintrec.
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concession, to the Catholics; but haw any one could
talk of consistency, and at thessine time admC, on the
one band, the necessity of conceding to the Roman Ca-
tholics, spd on the other the nece,sity of a Church Es-
tablishment, appeared to him utterly incomprehensible.
Tne effects of repealing the Test and Corporation Acts
were even now becoming apparent. At a time when
a proposition for their repeal was before the House,
Noble Lords would not allow themselves to foresee the

_ .. ..
IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. • ,
HOUSE OF LORDS, FeDRUMM 9.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY -reported to the House the
most gracious answer returned by his Majesty to the Addeo,'
voted in reply to the Speech from the Throne, In wither his ilk*
testy thanks their Letdsbips for. their • loyal insididlel AtlAker,
and empresses his full talkers* tepee their anathema es his penes
and Government. Th. Royal Answer was then kid is the table,
and ordered to be printed and published.
nonan carfare CLAMS.
The Bishop of EXEDER then presented a Petition bike
ter, wbkle tie staled was mow onerously and r I
its prayer was against farther Concession to the ROAMS
The same Right Rev. Preis presented similar Petitions from Ile
parish of Southden ( r.), sad from a parish in CurnwaL
—AU to lie en the table. ...
The Earl of WINCH I LSEA presented • Petition from me.
thee Oleos in Cornwall to the same effect. The same Noble Earl
that he should shortly have to present a Petition from
the greet body of the ,County of Kent; aid, as he could not, with!
out due notice, bring the prayer of it under the consideration of
their Lordships, he wald accordingly give such node,. In the
time he should' as for doing:so be would be influenced by-cireum.
stances which might, at fineview, appear eatraneoes to that pan
titular matter: What be alluded to was this. Before • nerreial
remarkable chaste, recandyi announied, had Oben Piece bi.do
mind of a Noble Dulte,epposise, a Petition was intrpiesd to WWII
4194 by In leas %kill 19,000 pewees.. He wished to Mew tree,
his Grace whether he persevered in his Intention of:presenting that
Petition, and if so, when be would present It?
•1 The Duke of WELLINGTON, in answer to.the Noble Lord
apposite—l have to say that I will present that Petition now..
(A laugh, and cries of Hear,tear). His Grace presented the AL.'
tidos accordingly. It appeared to be from Bolton-le-Muors, and
was against any farther concessions to the Roman Catholics. lii
dos presented similar Petitions from Lanark and from Kingsteni
npon.fluU.
, The Earl of WINCIIILSEA then gave oodee that on Friday
nest be would bring under the consideration of the House a Peti.
tion against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics—a
Petition which bore upwards of ten thousand signatures.
. 231 b. Duke of WELLINGTON presented a Petition frees the
Ramos Catholic Inhabitapts of Edinburgh, praying for a favour.
Wit masideration of their clainu.—Ordered to lie on the table.
• The Earl of EL DON, in presenting a Petition frost the filer.
dents, Bankers, Shipowners, and other Inhabitants of Kingston.
open-lifull, against any further concessions to the Roman Cat ho.
Ike, took occasion to observe, that it Wald be highly conducive,
OD the dispatch of business if Noble Lords, in presenting Peritimisel
would not raise the discussion of questions foreign from the 46.1
of the- ?widener*. The kgitimate course was, be oneekodi
incline oneself to a simple and faithful representation ad die
eentiments of the Petitions*.
• The Petition was then brought up, and it appeared to cattalo,
lia addition to the usual prayer against further concessions to the'
Catholics, a prayer foe the suppression of the Catholic **iodation.
*% llilitoanannr presented several Petitions from various parte of
his, the names of which he professed himself unable to pro.
tertinen He assured the Hesse that they were mom numerously
and respectably signed. Moot of them were from pans of Pllet•
shin sod Denbighsbirtn--Orekred all to lie on the•tabk.
His limilissur likeseke presented similar Petitions from the
izres
DNB kid dispieed thlitathittrai Chink of Gloucester. from
11Upwa,.hk Yorkshire, friim Newport Papa,. and from .Wal ins-
teed ; as ales frOm the'Clergy of the Archdeacon Of Sudbury
wed Wellington, Northamptonshire. This latter was:Sisised by
110 of the Clergy. : . -
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deed; and he had dash( that. if seillehme time was allowed,
the sense of die people of Ragland would W. expressed In much a
aseneer st to leave no doubt on the mind et soy Zia& Lord as to
the public feeling with respect to the proposed concessions to the
Roman Catholics.
Lord HOLLAND said, that If the Noble Doke would stick
t. prophesy he might be quite right. The pegs of England might
ezpreas their opinion in the way which the Noble Duke antici-
pated; belie say that a petition from any particular parish cx.
pressed the moss of the people of England was unparliomentaty
sad retromsly miesual
The Debi ef NEWCASTLE did mu coercive that it was at all
unusual M ago= as opinion on.the subject of a petition. sod he
had dam rashiag awe. The !Coble Duke then present,d similar
•Wlllhem %Wooer. Westniark, Tatford. Gelnstoter, in.-
Seilismehaw Amstrad. liaston, Bestmark. Bortmijoke mid
Vi'onelherough, in the Cooley aNetts ;
*ttlik b„in the County of CoMilial; and Ems Gentofte. in the
County of Berke:
Earl 110 W K pre.entid Petitions from Ashhourn; in Derby-
- and from Worringen, likvenstone Ashwood, lkoughtim,
WoddhOroadb. mod mite otber:pla•es in • auckingliamshire, against
any farther concession to the Raplall Cathulks.
Lord A M EMIT *premetyld a similar Petition from Chu& igh,
In Devonshire signed by persobs in a respectable station in hfe.
The Noble!Le:ed stated that there had' been a Meetineet this piaci
at which Lord .alliard encoded. There was a great snob. and
/loch distorbeetwoed be understood a Petitiou had been signed
•by some person who probably knew itot what they were itnit.g.
Laid BEXLlLY..irt.preteil/iiall,:d
the town of Harwich, olsserverlOhat he could sot premise this
Petition from his old constituents without stating that he still ad-
hared to his old opinions on the subject of what was called the
Catholic claims. The atmosphere of conversi3O bad not yet tcoet...l
him ; and, his opinions tieing unaltered, be was now en third to .e.
trestiotn h
he heaadntyh:concurrence
present thet
tosentimentstheir cosiiiltiapiusied to the pea
Viscount LORrON, in presenting similar Petitions
front the diocese of Kaiak, and from two parishes in /Lig°, spoke
as follows.--My Lords, I have been called upon to present to your
Lordships 'a petition from the Bishop and Clergy of the diocese
of Klllala, &c. humbly praying that no further concessions may be
granted to the Roman Catholics. My Lords, this is one of the first
petitions that has been brought under your Lordships' cmisieera-
don at the commencement of this most eventful Session, and. at it
is in defence of the Church and State, which mwt rise or fail tog..
titer, 1 most sincerely hope that it may be followed up by every
diocese in the •United Kingdom ;nand thus it will be manifest that
our Bishops and Clergy are, ins constitutional manner. the zealous.
(Orient, and isecompronsideg guardians of the true Catholic
Chords. My Lards. as many opportunities will be afforded fee
addressing your Lordships on presenting petitions against the en-
croachments of Popery, I shall not now trespass further upon your
Lordships times but will at once move that the petition of the
Bishop and Qergy of the diocese of Kaiak be received and laid
upon your Lordships table. I have also to present to your lard.
ships a petitioi from the Protestants of the parish of Castle Connor,
and another (rim the Protenants'of the parish of Killglass, both
its the county of Sligo, and buinhly praying that no further con-
cessionssnay be granted to the Rondo Catholic+ and shat mes-
on/small,. be adapted for putting down the Association and for
disfranchising the forty shilling freeholders. Concurring. my
Lads, ui do most heartily, with the sentiments contained in then
padding. lowa that they be received and laid upon your Lords
ehlte•table. , •
Estl pf VERULAM presented a similar petition trees
North Chords; le the county or Hertford, praying that the Pro-
testant Church and Coottitution should •be preserved inviolate. •
The Noble Earl also presented a petition from the parishes of
BerkhannteadfTring. and Gotten.
Ate Lan et SHAFTESBURY presented a similar petition
front the Mayor.sed Corporation. of Oxford.
The petitions were all received. and directed to lie on the table.
• • The Earl of ABERDEEN laid on the table a copy of the Con-
*mks entered into between his Majesty and the of Spain.
PORTUGAL.
Lord HOLLAND Jose for the purpose of pottiog a
question to the Noble Earl at tile head of the Fireign
Department respecting our relsttions wit', P
He was so'unloitnnate as not very cleat!), to e.itcpte-
bend what fell from the Noble' Duke l'sVcl ilitths) OA
the subject on a foimer occasion. He had understood
the Noble Earl, however, on the Best night if the pre-
sent Session, when adverting to this subject, to say that
he would be glad, when an opportunity occittie.l. to
eater into a fitll explanation of the conduct of his .la-
Oafs Ministers with regard to our relati .1.: nith
Portugal. .He supposed the Noble Earl (Abe, deen)
was himself most anxious to•bring fovea's' this sub-
ject. with a view of relieving him elf and the other
members of: his Majesty's Government from the
charges brought against them with respect to the
line of policy adopted by this country towards Pot tugal.
He did not know whether the anxiety of the Noble
Earl was to meet the charge• of ab tting or c, nniving
at the usurpation of the' Infant Dots Miguel, or the
other. charge of commencing hostilities against the in-
nocent sup jests of the young Queen. 'Dmna M.ria des
Gloria. No man could state that such a course of
proceeding did not require ezplahation...Their Lord.
:hips had heard two successive Speeches horn the
Throne; holding nut hopes that the methanol of his
Majesty would lead to an amicable. arrangement 4.1
the intet nal affairs of Portugal. They sere n w to!ir.
however, that as regarded. one paity cur diplomatic
efforts were not only unsuccessful, but • that all
diplomatic intercourse had been entirely suspended;
and we had, apparently at least, commenced hos-
tilities against the other party. lie said itEipateritly,
fir no official announcement had yet been made to that
effect. He made these observations in noltostile spirit
towards his Majesty's Ministers; but the subject really
called for explanation from the Members of his ada•
jetty's Government. and,: in his (Lord 'Holland's) opt.
Mom, it would be unbecoming in the Parliament of this
eiuntry not to evince some anxiety on a subject so
closely connected with ;he interests of our oldest ally.
He hoped that the Noble Earl would shortly be able to
lay full information before the House in explanation of
the course adopted by ;he Govertimeut of this country
in :elation to Portugal; and• that this 'information
would be such as would enable him and other Noble
Lords to come to a favourable opinion stn the line of
policy which bad been fun sued,: and' vie negotiations
in which we had been engaged. - In tone usion, be
beggid to ask the Noble Secretary:for Foreign Affairs
whether it was his intention shortlyito lay before the
House any papers,Connected .with the relations of this
country and Portugal?
The Evil 9f ABERDEEN bad no hesitation in
stating, that it was not his intentiooot present to lay any
papers before the House in relation to the subject which
the Noble Lord hadiadverted to. Theis Lordships bad
already been informed thot big Majesty was engaged
in oegociation with the.bead of the House of Raptors,
concerning. what he might call the misfortunes of Poe-
tagal,with a view of psomoting amicable at rangerre its,
end putting ars end to the state of affairs which existed.
at present, so detrimental to ihi prosperity. and tran-
quillity of that country. Such being the case, it would
be impossible forth! Noble Lord to suppose that during
the continuance of these negotiations, and before they
were concluded, his Makity's Miaisters should be pee.
polio :to lay any paper before the House for the pin,
pose of explaining the steps • now-talting; but if -the
Noble Lord (Holland) or any other Noble Lord, moved
for his owa.information and that of the House for any
particular piper to throw light ou the subject, his Ma-

disastrous consequences to the Church Establishment
with which that ill judged measure was fraught,. acid
especially the bids Spitituai could not be got to admit
the, possibility:otits leading to such a result as the ad-
mission of Roman Catholics to political power; but he
rather imagined that by this time they were pretty
nearly undeceived. He had foreseen•all that hadtaken
place; indeed, from the moment the Dissenters' Com-
mittee of Management dissolved itself, there could be
no dotibt upon this, that the Dissenters, having obtiined
all they . wanted fur themselves, bad determined. to
few themselves into the •setale against those instill
does under which the totintry, had peospered and flou-
rished ;-for it waswelf knOwii-thal,,at their dissolution,
ihe.eatuatittee publisht4.a *odes beltL
they would then recommend to the hody at 'arse:the'
Rbmaa Catholic demands. Indlis (Lord E.%) opinion,
it was the ditty of every Government to support the best
system of Christianity, and he humbly conceived that
the best mode of doing that was by maintaining aChurch
Iristablishmentconnected with the State, and never to
intim one which was not connected with it. That, and
a system of the most enlarged and. enlightened tolera-
tion, appeared to him to be what the Governmen) was
lbound to maintain.. That had been his opinion through
life—that be would maintain,to the latest hour of his
etistence.ssand, if there could be found those who would
labjure the. opinions which had been the guides of their
political conduct, and which they had been so active is
inducing others to adopt, he begged to say that be was
not one of "the number.
Lord HOLLAND wished .io rescue the Dissenters
from the imputation of hayloft approached the House
With one language, and with hawing adopted: a different
toss the moment their own objects were emitted. They
never. declared themselves hostile to Catholic'claims,
and there was nothing now to ptevapt their declaring
theniselvea .favourable to them. Re then presented
petitions in favour of further concessions from the Dis-
senters of Bolton, in Lancashire; from a place in Herb
fordaliiii,.and from Great Yarmouth.—Ordered to la
on thp
The Bishqpfs- BRISTOL presented a petition.against
WO* confessions to the Catholics from the pima!' (.1
•Alf.Snrits,,Bristol, in the prayer of which helullf con-
cureed...r.Didpcad to lie on the table.
The Bishop atBATH and WELLS said, that when-
roVec the question did come on, he hoped it would be
teepperately. discussed. For himself, as one intfepen-
dent biember of that House, so far from his opinions
nivieg widergoue the slightest change, he was only
more an'il.more. confirmed
„in. his former sentiments,
tnate it would_ be utterly inconsi.tent with the principles
of the Const;tution to grant any inctease of political
power to the Roman Catholics. It was his settled con-
viction that no such power could be granted without
endangering the. Protestant Constitution both inChurch
and State. 'These being his opinions, be would trouble
the. Mouse no further with his observations, but move
that the Petitions be read.. They were from St. Pctet
and Paul's parishes in Bath ; from Ease Coker, St.
James's parish, Bath; from Fewton Magnay St. Mi-
chael's, Bath; several places in Somerset; Shepton
Mallet. and Fewton Mendip.
The Duke of BEAUFORT presented a similar petition from
St. Stephen's and St. Peers, BeistoL His Grate declared that with
respect to .'lie Catbolit question, his opinions were unchanged.
The Duke of RICHMOND made a similar declaration in pre.
sensing v petition from the borough of Withertun. in Susses.
The Bishop at DURHAM also declared his continued decrial.
nation to resist further concessions, being persuaded that no secu-
rities would be of the slightest avail.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, that when the
Noble Duke at the head of the Government had ad-
vised his Majesty to make concessions to the Catholics,
he was understood to have done so under the impression
that the people of England were not unfavourable to
such concessions. Now, on that point he (the D..ke of
Newcastle) decidedly differed from the first Minister of
the Crown, It would be a question very easily brought
to a decisive test, and one on which the Noble Duke
might very soon and very effectually be enlightened;
and he was satisfied that the result would show that, so
far from being favourable to the views of the Roman
Catholics, the people of England would be found most
warmly and sincerely attached to Protestant ascen-
dancy. Oa another occasion he would address their
Lordships more at length upon that topic; at present
he should merely confine himself to presenting a peti-
tion'from Nottingham, which he accordingly did, and
which was laid on the table.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE also
_presented similar Petitions
from the Borough of Newark-apao•Trent and from Bridgeford.
and observed, that those petitions, be had no doubt. spoke the sense
of the people of England on the question of further concessions to
the Roman Catholics..
Lord HOLLAND did not think the Noble Doke had
any right to assume that any Petition he presented ex-
pressed the opinion of the people of England. He was
old enough to remember when any person who ven-
tured to imply that there was a difference of opinion
between the people of England and the House of Com-
mons, would have been considered guilty of something
very little short of treason. Now, he had never concurred
in this doctrine, and GOD forbid. with the principles
which he had ever held, and in which he had been bred,
that he should; but. when they were told that i Peti-
tion from any particular place represented the sense of
the people of Ragland, be was inclined to reply, in the
language of Mr. Wilkes, Who, when he was told that
the sense of the people was against him on some cies-
tion, replied," Do you take their sense and' I'll take
their nonsense, and I believe I shall beat you. A pe-
tition coming from Bridgeford. or horn any particular
parish; or village; or town, presuming to state that the
opinions expressed in it were those of the people of Eng-
land, though it did not, nor ought not, in hit opinion. to
subject thoparties to punishment for misdemeanour, or
treason, or to any punishment. was, at all events, very
irregular, if not improper. The Petitioners had no right
to assume that their Petition expressed any opinion bpi
their own on the subject, and it should be taken as con-
taining their opinion, and the opitikto of no, other per-
son whatever, by Parliament.
The Doke of NEWCASTLE said, be was DoCiware that the
babe from Bridieford assessed to ezpress
pigels die sense of the
ef-Begiand. . What he:swot to, warnowas, that that Ped-
dle was tR accordance with the 'asthma el the peal* of Reg-

Lord HOLLAND,. in pressing the presentation of
several Petitions which thach bten entrusted to his charge
%rid% a few observations, expressed a hope that he would
not be considered asdepartiog from the rule laid dew•
by the Noble and Learned Lord who had spokes a few
minutes before, intending.. as he certainly did, to to..
fi.ie himself strictly tothe sentiments of the P '
and to the spirit of the petition. The names signed to
the petition were those chiefly of the class of Protestant
Dissenters—that most enlightened, loyal, and elem.
plary.body of men. whose relief, from disabilities coo•
•stituted the noblest feature in the proceedings in the
last Session of .Parliament. They were, on that occasion,
relieved from a. stigma, the inconvenience of whi
they felt too often. and suffered under too.long. These
petitions were such as he felt great pleasure-in present-
ing—they all breathed the same. spirit—a.spirit of fee-
vent gratitude for the boon conferred. upon the peti-
tioners in the last Session of Parliament, expressed in
terms that could not but prove extremely gratifying to
those to whom it was addressed. It could not but prove
extremely satisfactory to them to know that a due value
was set upon the benefits conferred. Rendered happy
themselves by the extension of political privileges, they
were anxious, in a generous and liberal spirit, of dif•
fusing those advantages as widely as possible amongst
all classes of his Majesty's subjects ; they therefore
prayed such an extension of religious -liberty to the
utmost limit. •To that point they all, more or less, di-
rectly addressed themselves. In introducing petitions
which had for their object.the advancement of religious
liberty, he trusted that he should keep within the pre-
scribed limits- if he ventured to avail himself of that op.
portunity of expressing his satisf iction and exultation
at the triumph of sound principles in the case of the
Dissenters. Twenty-nine years ago, when holding a
sear-in the other House of Parliament, it was his lot to
bring up- to.theis Lordships a measure for the relief of
the Dissentets,and from that time to the present he had
ever felt the deeies • interest in the success of their
cane. From that time to this, year after year, the subl.
ject was brought under their Lordships consideration,
and' at length the great measure was achieved. and it
was one at which he - might truly fay every thinking
man in the community rejoiced. It was one which
proved acceptable to the whole of the intelligent• poi-
don of the nation. When he looked back upon that
great measure, and when be looked forward to that in
which his Majesty's Ministers had so properly eagaged
themselves—that noble and useful work so essential to
the general union of the empire—he meant the relief of
the Catholics—he was sure that, when the petitions
which be had- brought down were laid before their
Lordships, and when the other petitions of it Wainer
nature yet to be presented were before them, and when
the various means within their Lordships power of
ascertaining the sentiments Hof the great body of the
Dissenters were known, they would find that a large
majority of that=body were favourable to the wise and
politic, and liberal measure to which his MajestY's Mi-
nisters, so honourable to themselves,' stood piedgeed.
The first et the Petitions spoken et by the Noble Lord was thee
read, sad It proved to be from South Shields, is the away of
Durham. •
The Earl of ELDON; in explanation, said that he
bad never contended against any Noble Lord's discus-
sing the matter of any Petition which he might hive to
present to the House. What he meant to convey was,
that in his opinion it would be extremely advisable that
Noble Lords, in presenting Petitions, should confine
themselves to a statement of the sentiments, contained
in the Petition, and not treat the House to beads of a
speech upon the general question to which the Petition
related. With respect to the Petition just presented by
the Noble Lord, and to the principle on which it was
'founded, he had only one observation to make, that he
could well'conceive bow the Noble Lord, or those who,
Ought with him that no Church establishment at all
s►as essential to the well-being of the State, advocated

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