Star.
London, England, 1819-12-09 00:00:00

,in the night time. As Soon as he received
ebbe (Mr. Wortley) communicated the, state.
a friend of his in York, a Gentleman 'known
1. pe, sc.ns in that House, as worthy of every.
ace, on account of his Character for intelli.
activity—he meant Sir F. Wood. At the
me that he communicated with this Gentle- I
,e also wrote to the constable, directing him
his depositions before Sir F. Wood. The in-
on having been taken, the latter immediately
lied a letter to him (Mr. Wortley), in which
ed, that he bad taken the depositions of the'
; already alluded to. He would read the first
e of this letter, to the House :•‘‘ My dear
I—The drilling at night, at Barnsley, is be-
; notorious ; in fact, those who are engaged in
rather desirous it should be known, than
ise." Sir Francis mentioned, that one part of
iesitions was to the following effect:—The de-
stated, that on the nights of Monday, Tues-
ii Wednesday, persons, to the amount of 900,
issemble4 together in, a field, near Barnsley,
ey were drawn up in regular order, and that
ad sticks and poles, about eight feet long. The
ant did not go to the field on the two last
bat that en the night of Monday, being a
moon-light night, he distinctly saw, in the
field, men armed 'pith poles, and that on the
these poles,„lea saw something glistening,
appeared to him to be like pike-heads. It
Ibe remarked here, that the man who made
depositions, was a quiet, intelligent man. He
•xt to draw the attention of the House to the de-
m, of another person, whose name, for ob-
reasons, he would abstain from mentioning.—
erson, on the night orfuesday, was returning
-seback to Barnsley, and as he was passing a
,ur that town, he thought he saw there a num-
' men, marching and exercising. He pulled
hose and waited a short time, during which
and the words March" and " Halt several
repeated. He then rode on to gain a nearer
if the field. lie saw a number of men march-
ight deep, armed with poles eight feet long,
istinctly heard the words " Stand at ease"—
older and Ground Arms." At this time, one
) men in the field, seeing 'deponent, ran up to
ad asked him what he wanted? He rlied by
" What the devil 'are you about?' Upon
the mentan off. The deponent said he was a
ay Officer, and that, to the best of his judg-
, the men in the field might amount to between
ty and one hundred. He (Mr. Wortley) had a
from this deponent, in which he said, " Since
rening of Tuesday, I am informed that drillings
eing on ; that they are not confined to Barnsley
N vicinity alone, but that they extend also to
,a and several of the neighbouring towns." He
low read the papers, and he believed the'House
d agree with him, that the practices of training
'lilting were going on to an alarming extent.—
bought that the law should be expeditiously
.1, and that its provisions should be quite cleat
tile subject, as it was impossible-these practices
I have any other object than a treasonable one:
implored the House to lose no time in passing this
and as it had already been thoroughly tonsi-
-1 and examined in the other House of Farlia-
1, no great injury could result from.expedition.
b. TIERNEY would assure the House, that no
a is tile country was more ready than himself to
A forward is opposition to treasonable attempts ;
althouo he was most desirous to put &am:those
races stated by the Honourable Member to be
in a part of the country, he would at the
ne time take care that his alarms should not
hum to concur in making a precedent highly
:,fight with mischief--(Hear, hear). It was to be
wired, that the communication just made was not
his M tjesty's Government; and, disposed as he
icerely was to give implicit confidence to any thing I
at fell from his Honourable Friend, he must confess
s surprise that this communication had not been
,ado to Government. Again, there WAS another re-
tarkable fact, that the Lord Lieutenant tithe County
York WAS a Member of that House, and yet no
ammunication upon the importanasets before that
louse had been made to him—.(Hear, hear). He
egged to impress on the House the mischief that
lost arise from having recorded in the Journals of
Et House, that a Bill had passed through its three
:ages in oae day. The case of the Habeas Corpus
sisipension Bill might be referred to; but in that case
:a necessity of expedition was so undeniable, that the
mapriety of the Bill being once assumed, there could
le no sort of reason for delay. But on the present W-
agon, whatevil could result from observing the usual
and proper interval for passing Bills, except a couple
ti days additional training? and he begged to know
There would be the harm
'lnd days, additional traal
mischief would arise- from
lithe Bill? He belted'
jetting to expedition, if it
he agreed to pass any Bill
cc tile other side, be mar
Ptah out that such haste

Lord CASTLERVIZ'
team which was then in
came very naturally from
connected with that part
carte from. It was to be..
ounication was in the sba!pe
make
a
r,
to meet
tn m soiroe
itv
o4jcction, he should propota
int and second time that
committed to-morrow%(this
toni,.y for discussing it wr
Mr. CUItWEN said,
sere incredulous as to the
ing was going on iu the
he, however, was.only incredi
as removed, and he nc
line that the fact was as
was also ready to scat
o that neighboorhood nts`
for protection from the
?ractice,--(lfrar).
Mr. STUART WOW
to state, that he hal
e was to be a large
tity next, and that it was
10 attend that Meeting
Lord LOWTHER coild
using was going pp.

some time to as alarming extent. The -Tpatireettel
were regularly organize&-asid carrieduntheir Meet.
ings in a systematic manner. It was absoltusly act.
cessary that the House *odd adopt some measurmi
to counteract these dangerous proceedings—(Hear).
The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND stated
that training was going on in Scotland to an alarm.:
ing extent—(Heer hear).
Sir J. GRAHAM corroborated the statemen
training was carried. very far in the. neighboO
of Carlisle; but he was also prepared to express his
conviction, that it was confined to a comparatively'
small body of the County. Generally speaking, the
County of Cumberland was loyal to the ling and
the Constitution—(Hear, hear). Perhaps the number
of the disaffected might amount to four or five hun-
dred—a number, however, whose dangerous power
[he would not think lightly of. In fact, such a.body,
with arms in their hands, might destroy the ',wholeA
place. He could state,, that they had recently cut
'down young plantations, chiefly for the purpose ofl
fitting pike heads to the staves which they formedl
from the young trees. • Information was also recently
given to a Magistrate near Carlisle, by a"blacksmith,
that he had received orders to make twelve dozen of
pike heads ; and he (Sir J. Graham) was assured,
that orders to the same, or to a larger amount, were
given to other smiths, who did not inform the Ma-
gistrates of the circumstance. Every good anbloyal
man throughout the Northern Counties, rooked for
protection both to khe Ministers and Opposition•T-
-( Hear, hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that as one of those called
the Opposition, he was ready to afford the protection
sought for, in the way most agreeable to all parties;
and he was glad to perceive, that there was no inten-
-1 tion on the other side of the House, to carry this Bill
in such a way as to make it a dangerous precedent.
There was no doubt that training, such as the Bill
lasught to put an end to, was highly illegal, and he
was surprised that the Magistrates did not before in-
terfere, to prevent these nightly Meetings, at which
training was so extensively practised.' It appeared;
[ that in several places persons assembled together
with clubs and pikes, and went through exercises,
with as much confidence, as if they were acting under,
tiki's Majesty's commission. There could be no doubt
that such Meetings were illegal; and that as to "their
criminality, they were only separated by a very slight
shade of difference from the highest crime known to
the law, namely, that 'of levying war against the
King—(Haar, hear). The Magistrates, therefore,
were bound to interfere, and prevent them; first by
calling to their. aid the civil force, and if that was
insufficient, the yeomanry, and if both these were in-
adequate, the military. They were bound, not only
to put down those Meetings, but also to seize the
persons composing such illegal, if not treasonable,
Assemblies--(Hear). When he (Mr. Brougham)
was in Carlisle, two or three months ago, he heard
that training was practised there. What then, he
would ask, were the Magistrates doing: since that
,time, that they had brought none of the persons so
employed to justice ? If the inhabitants of Cum-
beiland looked up to the Ministers and Opposition
for protectioa;they ought not to pass over their own
Magistrates. As to the Bill, ho heartily concurred
in it ; he only wished to see its penalties more spe-
cific ; he hoped that it would be rendered sufficiently
severe, and that it would shew the determination of
Parliament to punish those persons, who dared to at-
tempt such crimes—(Has, hear). L .
The ATTORNEY GENERAL, in vindication of
the Magistrates, stated, that they did interfere, that
several persons were apprehended, and afterwards in-
dicted, but that they traversed, and thus an opportu-
nity was lost of making immediate examples—(Hmr,
hear). He had no doubt that the persons assembled
in these nightly Meetings, for the purpose of mili-
tary training, were .Yuilty of high treason. But on
account of the difficulty of getting proofs, sufficient
as establish this charge, it was necessary to indict
them only for a misdemeauour—(Hear, hear).—
i The difficulty of procuring evidence was rendered
greater, because persons who went to witness the pro-
ceedings of those engaged in.training were maltreated.
But he hoped that the alarm which would be nun-
rally excited, when it should be known how far those
dangerous practices were extending, might induct
persons, at whatever hazard, to witness them, and
bring home the charge against some individuals, that
public justice might be satisfied.--(Hear, hear).
Lord STANLEY was aware that several persons
had been taken lop and indicted, and that they af-
terwards traversed, but he also knew that several
persons had been brought before Magistrates and
were afterwards suffered to go away, with merely a
warning that they should not offend again. He be-
lieved that opinions were taken is to the illegality of
'• doubt • the sub-

t, that

.

itqloneethen incurred, at a t,ime when waled,
• Appose .all the Nines of &rope, under theists
•- • • which. now gave an annual charge ef.upwardsl
of six millions sterling. He lamented the little en-
couragement given to sailors, and would rather. see
them employed, and the. British flag flying in dif-
ferent parts. of the world, than be compelled to wit-
ness such an augmentation of our land forces as had
lately. taken place. oHe then moved for a Return of
she number of Ships and Vessels belonging to the
Royal Navy in the years 17910.1792, and 1793 ; and
for a similar Return for the years .1817, 1818, and
1819, distinguishing their different rates, and the
numbers employed .at sea and laid up in ordinary
in each year. He also moved•for Returns of. she to-
tal charges incurred for building and repairing ships
and vessels, and improving. Dock-yards, at the two
periods set forth in the Motion, in each year, and the
total amount of the charge created in the three years,.
1791,• 1792, and 1793—and also in 1817, 1818, and
1819. He begged to say that he thought the pre-
sent Motion of the utmost importance, as he be-
lieved that if the matter was looked into, a consi-
derable saving in the building of ships might be ef-
fected by it. .
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN feared that apart of
the Accounts called for by the Honourable (lentle-
man could not be correctly made out, but es far as
it could be effected it should certainly be done'; and
when the Accounts moved for came before the• House,
he should be able to prole that nothing hail been
called for which was not absolutely necessary.
Sit J. YORKE always opposed his Honourable
Friend with regret, but if he understood what had
passed, the question put by the Honourable Gentle-
man (Mr. Hume) came to this, whether or not some
reduction could be made in the ship-building ex-
penses? Already we had ships enough to fight the'
navies of every country, if they were all opposed to
us together, provided we could. man, victual, and
store them, and under such circumstances it could
not be necessary to build more. If men of war were
built so much better than formerly, he would ask,
what must be thought of that Government, which
had left Sir Robert Sepping, to whom the beneficial
change might be ascribed, with a bare Knighthood.
but without having been rewarded for what he had•
done, by the grant of a single shilling?
Sir ISAAC COFFIN defended the late addition
to the Marines. He had long served with that corps,
and knew them to have rendered the most important
services to their country. If it had not been for the
integrity and loyalty of this corps, the whole fleet
under Lord St. Vincent, at the time of the mutiny,
would have been carried into Ireland. It was to the
conduct of the Marines alone that, the safety of the
fleet, as well as the preservation of the lima of the
bfficers, was to be ascribeclA-(ilear, hear).—Ho had
repeatedly seen them in service, both on shore and
on board, and never knew aiiinstanee in which they
had not manifested great courage, zeal, and loyalty
Hear, hear J.—Therefore he maintained, that in
adding 1,000 men to the Marines, the House was
not turning them into a Standing Army. It was no
such thing.
Mr. CROKER thought it would have been better
for all parties bad the present motion been deferred
till the ordinary and extraordinary Estimates bad
been laid on the table. Mr. Hume would then have got
all the documents he wanted, with the exception of
those that were t'o shew what had been expendi-
ture in 1791, 1792, and 1793, and a motion could
have been made for these, instead of the general mo-
tion now before the House, which would occasion,
much arouble, not only in searching for the first-
mentioned Papers, but in producing those which
would have been brought forward if no such motion
had been made, and which must' have appeared on
the face of the Estimates for the year—(Her, hear).
He was glad to have an opportunity of speaking of
the case of Sir Robert•Sepping. For that meritori-,
ous individual, his gallant Friend could not feel more
'respect than was common to the whole Navy Board.
The Admiralty had last year recommended to the
Prince Regent the grant of a sum of money in favour
of Sir Robert Sepping. This recommendation had
been approved of by his Royal Highness, but of
course this circumstance could not be expected to
reach the ears' of his gallant Friend before the meet..
ing of Parliament. He could, however, assure him,
that the subject had never been lost sight of, and a'
grant of £5,000 had been resolved upon, in addition
to the honour which had been mentioned by his gal-
lant Friend—( Hear, hear).
Sir BYAM MARTIN would take upon himself to
say, that when the Papers were produced, the Honour-
able Gentleman would be found incorrect in all his
points. The documents could not be produced with-
out great difficulty and -labour, but what could be
done, should be done.
difficulties

e

•

• -


•


•

r:been made, he had only to remark, that Sir
iletrett ••SePptng, . with the honour' conferred upon •
him, would receive the intainlrtigmt.retaining all
the emoluments of his .situatiltn, While.gr. Graham,
retiring from ilfhealth, 'received the £B,OOO granted
to him in lieu of all the emoluments accruing. to him
from the situation be had held.
The motion was then agieed to.
SEDITIOUS ilitsTlEps rEitvEETIoN BILL.
On the motion of Lord Ca/ken:mini, the House
lesolv.ed itself into a Committee on the Sedition: •
Meetings Prevention Bill.
- Lord ALTHORP objected. to that part of the
seeelith Clause which went to make a Meeting illegal
if a person not resident in the parish remained there
after being ()Meted to depart, and hoped anAmend-
jsent would,be moved. • ..
Sir J. MARJORIBANKS suggested aoAmend-
ein, to make the Meeting illegal if it opposed the
removal of the individual ordered to depart.
Mr. DENMAN( Lord MILTON, Lord FOLKSTON!,
and Mr. J. P. GRANT, condemned the Clinse as it
et.present.steod, and forcibly pointed out the evils,
onteptions, and inconsistencies, that might be
aspected to arise from it. The Clause was explained
and defended by Lord CASTLIEWEA.GH, Mr. L FOS-
TER, Mr. BATHURST, and the ATTORNEY-GEN/RAI. ; .
and. it •was finally amended, after much discussion,
so as to make those Meetings, illegal frord which. a
person,_ who had no right to be, present,. refined, to '
depart, on being ordered by the Magistrates to retire.
Mr. DENMAN moved to insert a provisothat this
provision should not extend to County Meetings, and
such as were excepted in the first Clause of the Bill.
After a few words from Lord CASTLEREAGH, Lord
A. HAMILTON Sir J. &WRIGHT, Lord MILTON, Mr.
BLLISON, the SOLICITOR GENERAL, Mr. DENMAN,
the ATTORNEY GENERAL, and Mr. PRIMROSE, Mr.
Denman's proviso was negatived, and the orighial
clause war agreed to, as amended, without a division.
Mr. J. P. GRANT objected to the clause for dis-
persing Meetings in case the removal of a stranger
should be obstructed. If the Meeting did not ob- -
struct the removal, and the resistance should be on
the part of the stranger, why should the Assembly
be dissolved?
Lord CASTLEREAGH and. the SOLICITOR
GENERAL contended, that no additional power was
given by the clause to Magistrates ; and that it was
se.wordesi, that the obstruction must be offered by
the Meeting to authorize its dispersion.
. • Tile clause was then agreed to. •
On the clause for indemnifying Magistrates, in
eases where they should have-been compelled to use
force to disperse Meetings,
Air.DENMAN. wished to know, whether Magis-
trates were to be protected, in case lives should have
been lost, in consequence- of resistance ? If so, this
was a new principle, which was not contained even
in the Riot Act, for resistance, by that Act, was only
made felony without benefit •f Clergy, but did not
authorize tlfe destruction of lives.
,The SOLICITOR GENERAL contended, that the
principle was sot a new one, and that the existing law
allowed Magistrates to employ force in the dispersion
of legal Meetings, I
Mr. DENMAN begged to deny in toto the law of
his Honourable and Learned Friend. The ' existing
law gave 'no' power to Magistrates to put down law-
ful Meetings by force, as it would be prevect by a re-
ference to " Hawkins Pleas of the Crown." -
Mr. J. P. GRANT had yet to learn that any Court
of Law had come to a decision on that subject On
the contrary, Lord Chief Justice Hale, speaking to
that 'question, laid down, that it required the force of
an Act of Parliament IQ protect Magistrate. a4ainst
the charge of murder, who had acted on the inter-
petition of his Honourable and Learned Friend (the
Solicitor-General). Andras it now to go. to the
world, that, whenever any assembly met for public
discussion, Magistrates were entitled to let troops
of horse loose upon the People?—(Hear, hiar). He
certainly felt warm on the subject, for he had never
heard a more monstrous proposition, than that the
House should be called upon to legislate that Magis-
trates should be authorized t• disperse a legal Assem-
bly by force, and to commit, with impunity, the crime
if murder!—(Hear, hear). No lawyer, he was sun a
~.
.. ever before expressed such an opinion; and be
was'lorry that any thing Which would countenance
it *bald now be sent forth to the world. If it was
so intended, however, let it be done openly, and let
the House at once enact that it was lawful for Ma-
gistrates to disperse legal assemblies, and that if mire-
der ensued, they were not to be considered guilty.
The SOLICITOR. GENERAL stated, that by the
Statute of Henry VII. Magistrates were invested with
the same power of dispersing unlawful assemblies as
in the case of riots. It was clear, not only that they
had, but that they must have, the power of suppress-
- unlawful Meetinks by other means than the ap-
_ _ - . - -

*1

g? and he begged to Know neveu ina.. ~F....-.... ap-
m..-
of two days, or two hun- training and that there was much doubt on the sub- done; should be done. .
Lining\ seeing that so much ject, though he could not believe that it was not an Mr. HOME said, with respect to the difficulties in unlawful Meetinks by other means than tne
3rn too precipitate a passing offence against the common law. But if the practice that lay in the way of their production, he thought prehension of offending individuals. For supposing, ,
to be understood as not ore was not yet illegal, it was fit that it should be mace
them so trifling, that for £.5 he would' undertake to. as
had lately been the case, Public Assemblies to
t were necessary; but before so, though the Legislature ought not at the same pay for them hiraself(A laugh).—He would be at consist of 00,000 persons, how could they 'apprehend
11 with the haste proposed tithe to proceed too hastily—{
ace
hear). the expense of producing them himself, if the Gen. them all" or disperse them, if they were not allowed
tat see the case satisfactorily A short conversation wok place between Mr. Cuts-. demen opposite would allow him access to them., to have recourse t 9 other means? If they could do •
IS was necessary. weir, Lord. STANLRY, Mr. S. Woieter, Mr. J. •P. The difficulties started were but the mode in whicfs it by mere apprehension let them first try that ai it
Hi thought that the intern- GRANT, Sir C. BWIRRLL, and Lord Foterrost,' au Miuisters thought it expedient to smother inquitt. 1" was fit; but if it did not succeed, they we entitled
the possession of the House th?s subject, after which the Training Prevention Mr. CROSER denied that the Accounts could. he tO use the degree of force requisite for therebject, but
m one who was intimately Bill was read a first and second time, and ordered be produced as easily as the Honourable Gentlemln no More, so dint they acted under a very heavy re.
irt of the County where it to be committed to-morrow, and to be printed. supposed. Ono Paper it would be very diEfitailt so eponelbility, for if they employed more force than
,observed, too, that the com- On the Notion of Lord CASTLEREADH, the Make out, and he doubted whether it could be cor- Was necessary, they could be called to account forgo
Nape of evidence, and ought Seizure of Arms dare was read a first time, atul or- rectly given at last. Enough, however wOuld be doing before the Tribunals of the country.—The
impression on. the House. dered for a secon adiog on Friday nest, and r
_produced to prove that the lionourable,Gentlensaln Clause was then agreed to. '' • '
light Honourable Gentleman's be printed. _, was mistaken in all his statements, and that the Ac- •' Oh the Clause fir regulating places there lectures
noose that the Bill be read the . •Mr. TIERNEY asked the Noble Lord (Casi.U7 counts were at present kept better, itnd with mote are delivered and debates are held,
tatsight, and that it might be reagh) when it.was intended that theJthird readmit economy than formerly. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that liter*?
thi &ay), when a full oppot-, ofthe Seditious,Meetings Bill should take, place? Mr. HUMS said, he hid not called for the pod. to shew the, necessity of such a clause, he Amid •
could be given to the Hon*. He begged leave.to st4te that he should be' satisfied cflars, but for the total and aggrezate amount. . teed one or two of the questions which had beendis..
,he was one of those who vridr one fair opportunity of discussing the principle' Sir J. YORE was glad to have received the ils.. coned, for the last three months, at deb=att:
he fact, that estensive train- of the Bill, and it. might be equally convenient for terniation afforded by-his Honourable .Ftiead '(Mr. in the Metropolis, where, people weer
ie neighbourhood of Carlide i the Noble Lord that that shook be on the third reed Poker): .Without wishing to melte anT,invichisiis paying a, shilling at the door. The first was endtkd '
incredulous until every doubt Mg of it. . . etimparatins, be could not hek_kopp kii*, a. JO_
_lftiech;•sitd consisted of the following sullects s
low no longer hesitated to be- After some caAyormeitialetwaint yrrd„Colgt,*•. short tune ago the sum of gS,UW Oft , ' ed' Ili: 'Ph. ieli of the three following professions lie a
es.stated--tHear, hear, heed). ;Lod and Mr,
,Ttemses .th• ~.thira_mibag*f .01 . k.Bow-crt.:Migisy**-44:. I,Garan.', ~
..)iilid gteater tendency to harden theluntauhe i....thie
- • on
tate, that several individuais Bill wat fixed for Monday putt. , not..tee fitly, the.servicel of aq ' Ylnlindjultal tier,- the Hingwran, or the Paeson-r *Ho
nowlooked up. to the How • ROTAL NAWn r. Alining sr , *rnpitiol,.Cohld be compart.l-41tUbosi . trotuild how the question had been decidech...
he dangers &inn. from such Mr. MIME moved for
papers Madre. w tips Bt= Wired to tie c.Oun;i7.bi Sii3ob4llt Segllnk, „He i'tiligeitt•i•.--a "tether Mr. JultiCe 41We! rib
edit
incurncl in. respect, of„bujltling,".* herd the -cheocellor, at A* ExchequerWwild)AviC .. - _ Wile to tee& the •Scritifinew hiehia
tTLEY thought it right ihr. Royal Navy. , The Honourable Merniser entered icife outobos to sabstiteto ZlO,OOO for its tbe .- • • 'eti:bii imputed to sitictle risoco 'for •
ad received information
.tbnt a comparative statement of the establishment god labsgrunt,i for the latter surn,he thought a '-• ' • -,A;,...., .., to the f-mrthaf it* rappoiM abiludities
Meeting at Bnsley ou Moll- expenses of thiS Pepatraent,from the
',s ug . • ~, y,ye •• Sir Await.' 1-1 '. d• '')'; `:',. , 'IMO& tie.publiclyexposedr Were
as intended byreveral persoips to the present time. •IR 1791 the tiebl ',spatial t.• tau A gettou avammt.. • . *net eticti 'tliseireslent' inost totrinatios; Oita &isms.
armed--iffear, hear). I amounted to £4966060,- whereas - at' the roam .. of bod.been •to the &rot, en be piii„dliri.? ..'ffettia:lenic=ao ft* rh;
coin ,assures the liqpipes.thitt time. it was abve stz 'millions.- •He thoight it Mil .. gas iiiaig sial,iple.,pVllthilitr Sind the, Mk* Dvtitr.lll4.ll !Ikt ' ' ''seall,';oll*lte.
.
a- in ,IMI, neighbourhood fie portant that the' House.shmtkl bail Wens thieve& Treasury. with :es pen 41.0 ifmrtailieriku'wtacii &Mils iviaites a evateuiiiftf: viiiisitaderagr
. ,
, . • •• , .
• • A