Star.
London, England, 1818-03-07 00:00:00

TITHES BILL.

Lord PALMERSTON wished to know whether the Ho.
nourable Mover of the Tithe Regulation Bill would consent to
postpone its second reading to another day, in order to live
time for its consideration, as well as on account of the dimmer
sion which was expected this evening on the Mutiny Be?
Mr. CUR WEN felt disposed to do it, and the more so as he
hoped that the period which would thus elapse would serve to
do away the prejudice which the petition front the University
of Cambridge, presented that night, could not fall to hays raised
against the measure. He then postponed the second reading to
this day se'nnight.

INDEMNITY BILL.
A Message from the Lords brought up the In-
demnity Bill, with a copy of their Lordships' Re-
port, and prayed the assent of this House to the same.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL having heard that
it was the intention of an Honourable Member on
the other side (Mr. Lambton), to oppose the Indem-
nity Bill on its very first stage, gave notice that he
should move that it. be read a first time on Mon-
day next.
Mr. LUSHINGTON moved that the first reading
of that Bill on Monday be made an Order of the Day.
Lord FOLKESTONE opposed that motion, as
contrary to the notice given by the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that it had
been in coutemplation to read the Bill a first time
on its being brought up, but from what had trans-
pired of the intention of the Honourable Member,
he had preferred putting off the first reading till Mon-
day, that the Bill having been printed might be
known in all its parts, and that the House might not
conic prematurely into the discussion.
Mr. LUSHINGTON contended that his motion,
instead of being contrary to the notice given, went to
secure the first reading of the Sill on Monday.
Mr. LAXBTON thought, that if the motion were
adopted, the question could not be raised on the first
reading of the BilL
The SPEAKER explained, that in that case the
question that the Order of the Day for the first read-
ing of the Bill be read would certainly be first put,
but that the debate might be taken either upon it,
or upon the question that the Bill be now read a
first time.
The motion was then agreed to ; and on Mr. F.
Dotior.As's proposal, the Report of the Lords was
ordered to be printed.

MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT.

Mr. BROGDEN having brought up the Report of
the Committee on the Mutiny Bill,
Lord ALTHORPE rose to make the motion of
which he had given notice, respecting the amount of
the military force which it was proposed to keep on
foot. The House were aware of the importance of
economy in the present circumstances of the country;
'but how was economy to be consulted, unless by re-
ducing the public expenditure to meet the public re-
venue ? The present military establishment must be
diminished, or the burthens of the people increased.
His Honourable Friends had hitherto compared, and
he thought rightly, the Estimates of this ye ith
those of 1792; but the Noble Lord opposite °blleted
to that period. In order to remove all such objec-
tions, he would take the fairest year for his Majesty's
Ministers. This was the third year of peace; and
that on which he should fix would be 1786, also the.
Ithini year after the close of a war, that with Ame-
rica. In his comparative view of the two establish-
" ments, he should set apart the number of troops ne-
cessary for the service of our new acquisitions since
1786. The Noble Lord had said that they amounted
Ito 12,600 men ; but he would allow him 13,600,
which would leave 24,000 men for the old colonies.
As to the increase of force in Ireland, although he
blamed the system of misgovernment adopted to-
wards that country, and the withholding of consti-
tutional rights from the great mass of its population,
since it must be governed as a conquered country, lfe
would'not press for the reduction in the troops by
which it was occupied. He would, therefore, also
leave the army in Ireland aside, and take the compa-
rison on Great Britain alone, and her foreign posses-
sions as they stood in 1786. At that period the mi-
litary establishment for Great Britain, Jersey, and
Guernsey, consisted of 17,368 men, and that for the
Colonies of 9,546, exclusive of some Irish regiments,
to the amount of 2,490 men, in all 29,404. Now
the establishment proposed for Great Britain, Jersey,
and Guernsey, was 29,780 men, and for the Colo.
nies 24,000, in all 53,780. Bo that the difference
between the establishment of 1786 and that of 1818,
was not less than 24,370 men—(hear, hear, hear)._
The Noble Lord accounted for some portion of that
increase by an alteration in the mode of relief, by '
which 6,000 men were now required. In 1786 the
number for the same service must have been about
2,000 men, so that 4,000 were fairly accounted for ;
but there still remained 20,000 men, whose necessity
must be shewn. The increase of the population of I
Great Britain, and the tlisorders which it had occa-
sioned, had been mentioned as some cause for that
augmentation. He was sorry to hear such arguments
brought forward, but it could not be contended that
any increase of population in England could be a
reason for augmenting the. force in the West Indies
Ulcer).—ln 1786 we had lately emerged from a war

which had deprived us of a large portion of our
possessions, and left us to depend for protection en-
tirely on ourselves ; but we had now seen the issue
of a contest in which triumph had attended our arms.
We had a large army on the Continent, and a host
of Allies. The only possible danger which could
threaten our West India Colonies must be from Ame-
rica. But the whole of her standing army did not
exceed 8,000 men, and yet to keep it in check we
must have 24,000! The arguments which he had
used tended to a greater reduction than that which it
was his intention to propose. But if he did not move
for a decrease of more than 5,000 men, it was in
consequence of seeing the House reject by a great
majority, the motion of his Honourable Friend, who
the other night had in vain attempted to efft.ct a di-
minution of 10,000 men in the military establishment.
He had himself little hopes of succeeding, though
even if 5,000 were taken away there would still re-
main an increase of 15,000 beyond the establishment
of 1786. In point of economy also the question was
one of interest (though it was not on that ground he
should urge it), for the reduction of .5,000 men could
not produce a saving of less than 180,0001. It was
formerly the system of the country to keep up the
Navy, and he regretted to see that it was abandoned.
Never, till of late years, had such forces been asked
for the land service of Great Britain, Jersey, and
Guernsey, as for that of the Navy.. From 1790 to
1792 the numbers voted for the Army had been
17,000 men, and for the Navy 19,000, but now they
were 29,000 for the Army, and only 19,000 for the
Navy. He was afraid the reduction in our Navy had
been too great to enable it to resume easily its power
if the occasion should require it. The objections
against a standing army had now grown out of
fashion ; but even with a view to diminish the influ-
ence which the Crown derived from military appoint-
ments, the reduction of 5,000 men was impor.ant.
As to the mode of reducing them, it was evident that
since the abolition of a trade which filled our West
India Colonies with discontented slaves, a smaller
force must be required for their protection. We had
100 battalions, which in 1786 consisted of only 400
men each, but at present of 800. He should pro-
pose to take 50 men away from each of those batta-
lithis, the strength of which would not be materially
impaired by being reduced to 750 men. He concluded
by moving, that instead of 113,000 men, 108,000 be
inserted.

Mr. WYNNE apprehended that the motion, if
carried, would probably be attended with no effect.
It would not be the first time that the numbers of the
army having been reduced on discussing the Mutiny
Bill, they had been retained by the Executive Go-
vernment as they had been voted in the original
Army Estimates. He then quoted many cases in
which the House of Lords having decreased the num-
ber of men voted by the Commons, and the Com-
mons themselves adopted the amendment, the origi-
nal numbers had yet been employed. He did not
see how any question could arise on the Mutiny Bill,
which could only operate to prevent the number
therein stated from being raised in the United King-
dom, but not the introduction of foreign troops, for
which no Mutiny till was required. He was inclined
to agree with what the Noble Lord had raid respec-
ting the Colonies, lint his chief objection was not to
the number of men employed, but to their not being
paid by the Colonies themselves. It was not many
years since that the island of Jamaica had main-
tained a regular cavalry and two battalions.
Mr. BANKES contended that the motion of the
Noble Lord was perfectly in order, ordinary, and
constitutional. That the other House, which had no
right to interfere with the first vote in the Commit-
tee of Supply, should in former times have vainly
attempted to reduce the numbers of the army, by al-
tering the clauses of the Mutiny Bill, was most asto-
nishing,; but the numbers might now be effectually
(oucol4 by a single vote of the Commons. If the
n. Gentleman and the House would accede to the
present motion, it would be easily shewn that there
was a power in the House to carry it into execution
that if our ancestors had neglected their duty, theit
successors would execute theirs • and that Ministers
should not employ more men than had been voted.
In the third year of peace it was proper to look at
every possible retrenchment consistent with safety.—
But large establishments, he allowed, should be re-
duced gradually. Not less than three regiments, orl
2400 men, might, he thought, be retrench at home,
and the remainder be taken from the col • which I
is,
would then come nearer to the standard 1796.
Lord PALKERSTON said he was %intent to take
the question up on its own ground, whether the num-
ber of troops were more than sufficient for the pur-
poses for which they were voted ? Ile denied the
foundation of the comparisons between the present
and former periods. With respect to the year 1786,
there was a large body of Hessians in our pay, which
ought to be added to the number of our own army.
The events that followed the year 1792 shewed how
greatly Mr. Pitt was deceived. He came down in that
year and proposed a reduction in the establishment,
because he thought there were reasonable grounds
for our remaining at peace fora period of 15 years.
But in a few months events shewed that this hope
was fallacious, and means were resorted to for im-
mediately increasing the militia. Indeed, the low-
ness of the establishment with which we entered on
the war did materially cripple our exertions, by giving
as a less effective force ; but this had ultimately oc-
casioned us a much greater expense than if the re.
ductions had not been made. Since then 26 years
had passed, and we had witnessed greater events than
had ever occurred in ten times that period before ;
therefore the Noble Lord ought to shew that there
was an identity of circumstances between now and
1792. It might be said that the people of this coun-
try were not to be governed by the sword, and he
was the last man who would adhere to that sort of
argument. But the experience of the last few years
proved how
.greatly our population had increased,
which gave rise to commotions that rendered a force
necessary for the protection of the lives and property
of individuals. But there were various causes not
under the controul of man which rendered the force
proposed necessary. The Noble-Lord here repeated
his former observations on the quantum of military
force necessary for our different colonial establish-
ments, the relieving of which would annually take
away one-tenth of the number voted for the home-
service, leaving only 21,000 as the whole number,
Iwhich, he contended, was by no means more under
the difference of circumstances, than that of 1792.

Indeed, when there were added to the mu.,
out to relieve the troops abroad, the aeduzi-"
made for filling up the skeleton regiments th,
sent home in their stead, it would he founds.
should scarcely have above 18,000, instead 4. ;1
The duties of a great portion of this force lye.
protection of the metropolis ; for there we, '
occasions, as in the instances of the Cat
without the possession of a large militai
would be impossible for Government to t
safety of the capital. Then there was aIC
her required for assisting the revenue, lc
annually much more than the expense of rn,
them ; and though the country was in a 7,e,
sure tranquillized, yet the hest way to kel;
to possess the means which had tended :a ,
With respect to Ireland, it was quite u.L.as:.
trouble the House with any observation-, AS
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) had fully
on this point. The present circumstan'...
colonies, particularly India and Calla
a much larger force than in forme-
The Americans had a large stand
though there was every reason
would occur to disturb the amicp
istcd between the two countries,
arise, and it was therefore Lam!),
those provinces against any sushi,!
Noble Lord, after recapitulating ti
maintained in our different est .'
with insisting that there was n •
which the present establishmeat
and that no reason had been give
farther reduction.

Mr. ORDE was of opir ion thal
went would tend to ruin and deg
He saw no reason why the militai
this country should be different n
were in 1792, Why was an Mere:
population, it was said, was increu
be a reason for raising the muslin;
every succeeding year ; so that if
admitted, and the .system suffert
vestige of the old constitution of F
be perceptible—(hear, hear.)—A
said, WAS necessary to be kept in
True; he had forgotten that it was
to have a more splendid and crce
litary on levee days.—(liear, he
novelties in the metropolis of EN
ings of these festivals were ushere
ried movements of the Guards, an.
tinued bustle of horses, and noii
would, if they had been heard in
our ancestors to believe that the
door. ( Hear.) Time was, when
hold his levees in the simple styk
first magistrate of a free people.—
visitors went in and out. whiler
files of troopers ; and their ears w.
the eternal clangor of martial buil
to see the country so degraded, '
glorious station. He was sorry t
tion to military pageantry ; and
men opposite, to produce in the
land, such an approach as this w
to the military and despotic cone..
tinent. For these reasons, he show..
motion.—(This sparh was loudly cheered.,
Lord G. NUGENT congatulAted the H.
hearing a speech so replete, as that of
Gentleman, who just sat down, with sot
tutional doctrine.—(Hear, hear.)—He
trouble the House with any lengthened
arguments. He should only observe, all
mind, the country had strong reason to be
the number of foreign mercenaries on
Establishinent.—(hear).—They consisted of
Italians, and French ; and amounted to at
thirds of the number proposed to be
There was a great deal of desertion amcn
mercenaries ; and if there was any dith
reefing the reduction, he thought it woul.
away, by considering, that in every view,
cinaries ought to be sent out of the country
opinion, also, no Army Estimates should •
support of the House, (certainly, they
have his vote,) which provided for a Bi
of occupation in France.—ihear, hear.)-1
jections to the keeping np this army, whi
could be done away. He did not like, in
tutional point of view, to see an Ent
placed in circumstances, and conversan
ciety, which would snake them not only I
despise the principles of their own free C
(hear, hear.)—Now, could it be supposed
men would sincerely venerate civil liberty
ing been so long employed in a country
net known ; at least not known to them.
the principles of the civil liberty of £
(hear, hear.)—He was aware that by t
which Ministers had concluded, and scr
men apprOved, but which he thought the
to be found in the history of our di'
were pledged to maintain a certain c
France. This Treaty ought, he admittea,
credly observed, as the honour of the colrat.
.ledged upon the subject ; but he would muCh
Cher vote for the supply and support ef that cc:
gent by a body of Russians, or any other elm,
ries, than have his countrymen placed in the die
Ling, odious, and tut-English office of mainti*,
military despotism.—(hear, hear )
Mr. WARRE could not see the necessity for
larger military force at present, than existed in l'
and if the manner in which the army were genre?
employed were considered, it would be ciatel.
every rational being that no such necessity coulk
pleaded, unless it were deemed material to hae46
diets stationed as sentinels upon Cliincse
guard French mortars, or to attend idle shoe.):
was extraordinary, he observed, with what
Ministers could get rid of the authority of Mt. PI
when it suited their purpose, while they held 1101
authority as an object of the highest reverence.
other occasions. Because Mr. Pitt had prat:':.l
moderate Military Establishment, in 1791, in ccTM
sequence of the probable duration of peace
embarrassed state of our finances, that lir.ittl
vs
truly deceived, and destitute of political te:c,-.7''
The insurrection in the Isle of Elv was put c101%:111!
a Cornet of Dragoons, a relative of the Ho. MeFe
bet for Wiltshire. If, indeed, the French Rcrj.3.
tion, with its desolating principles, were yct itt
eye
ration—if the victories of 1814 and 1815 NJ
taken place—if the Treaties of the Noble Lai

to the awes_
the deduzio:.
regiments tha,
Id he found that
0, instead I
this force gee
there
he Corn r 11,.
ge
nmcnt en5.,,..'•
e was a ii,mt
renue, *hid I
)rose of maiza
vas in a pea;
ay to 14...."
tended to tree,
Fait! uai.eop,st,
ration-, AS '4l!
filly
mstant% ..
Canada,
tims, ps,*
dir.g arm:- •
itilc: - -
t:•.e arr.,
fr.mer
to he
er,
at such an esti,.
stroy the
try e5t.,1,;;;47,-..t„•
now tr..re
eas? necessity!,
Ise I. But thi;
ng trmy
f t is argurarf.,
red to go mix
gre..ter forie.tys
a the metrop4.
ow•
de.! par.ia
rearti-.Thee
moo-
red ir. wits
nd with •
Ilse oi trumpes,
. their tita&
' ETTIC:I Wen 4
his Nlijeste ushis
c whis:h
)r.,
rat p.,,sisg frrY.
%Tr tv .• ,
ir.pets.,. l ••r.
front i.,
sze sa.'•
ale
d;N:t•s!!!!:•:-.i..
• • 1-
ra.
cheered.)
,ted the House.t
is that of the /I
with sound •
shniel et
ig•
thened or g
bserve, .llnt tale
ason to be jeainali
aries on our Pee
ansisted of Germs;
nted to at lean
I to be reduce:,
ertion amor.g tt's
any difficulty i:.
it it would be 4,1
'erg view, these ro
the country. ha
es should receisett
ly, they wouLiat
1 for a British r 4
hear.}—He
army, which ton
n like, in a crs
an English cal
onversant sri*
sot only forget. :4
m free Conivner.
supposed, that
nil liberty, aftsirt
country isl.ere it
o the extent, or
sty of Eugh&P-
Fiat by that Tray
, and sc me Gelb
eight the v, ivs
our
ertain icy...ll;sta
admitted, to he
of the clyantrY
se would mils
port ci that cc:
any other mere>
placed in the
ice of maintit?-; dis7l
ie necessity for
:Ivan existce in 17x,..'

'ten signed, then indeed he
arguments of the Hon. Gen-
port of such an extensive mi-
d suppose there was still the
n. Indeed, from the rould
the Noble Lord expressed
llity not yet consolidated, it
vocates for the present Eat r-
It was with regret _that he
of the Continent a determina-
he Noble Secretary had so
eat military monster.- But
:ould Great Britain interpose
until she herself first set the
!tear.)
led--For Lord Althorp's mo-
-Majority 21.
anounced amidst loud cheer-