Star.
London, England, 1811-03-05 00:00:00

PPW
satice he had given of a notion on the above subject.
He thought that previous to involving the nation in
expence, the utility *Pits objects should be clearly as-
certained he would therefore move fora Committee to
take luta consideration the expediency of erecting Pe- '
nitentiary Houses ; as also to inquire whether any ad-
ditional 'provisions 'should be made on that account,
and what clesctitiktion of persons should be admissible
into them ? •
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY would not oppose the
motion of his Honourable Friend, but wished he had
to shew a wider range, in default of his having-done
so he should move an Amendment. He wished the
Committee not only to inquire into the expediency of
existing penitentiants, &c. but also to take into consi-
deration the utility of the species of punishment alrettdy
established, viz. transportation and imprisonment on
board the hulks. He would not take upon him to say
that the penitentiaries should supersede the other two'
modes of punishment; but with respect to transporta-
tion,he could state such facts as would make the House
perceive the expediency of at least appointing a Corn-
mittee to.inquire with respect to it. The expence of
the penitentiaries had been talked of ; but what would
be the amount of that compared to the expence of
the colony to which our convicts were transported?
Mr. WHITBREAD had been at Portsmouth
during the last Session of Parliament; had visited
the hulks ; it was impossible for any thing to be
better conducted ; and he could not forbear giving his
unbiassed testimony to the indefatigable and meritori-
ous zeal with which Mr. Graham performed his duty.
Mr.WILBERFORCE deprecated the delay which
as inquiry as to the other modes of punishment might
occasion to the erection of the penitentiaries.
Tne SPEAKER was of opinion that it would be
better to let the original motion stand, and superadd
the new matter suggested. He then read the Motion,
which was agreed to, and a Committee appointed to
meet to-morrow morning, at nine o'clock, in the
Speaker's chamber.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Lord PALMERSTON moved for a Comnsittet
of the whole House to inquire with respect to the
Supplies granted to his Majesty.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
Lord PALMERSTON wished to observe to the
Committee, that although the estimates were framed
upon the same principle to those of last year, yet
sane difference in the distribution of expence having
necessarily occurred, he would endeavour to specify
and account for it with all possible precision. In the
Household' - there -- increase of men, hut



tee to the state of the regular Army, and the view 1 which theearepaign on tbePeninsulehadbeee mama.
which the Ministers of the Prince Regent took of thisl The Honourable General had certainly not found his
subject. And upon this part of the question there prophecies correct on that subject, and he hoped many
were two considerations ; first, as to the amount of of them would not be accomplished in future. In the
force necessary fot national defence ; and secondly, first place it wassaid that Lord Wellington had neglected
how, from the national resources of the country, that . to crush the enemy by fighting, and that Mamma had
force should be kept effective ; and it was a subject been successful by such neglect. Lord Wellington
of congratulation that they were not now called : had also been accused of rashness in defending the
upon to devise the means for keeping the establish- , heights of Busaco ; so that he who had been blamed
meat of the regular Army effective. The time was in the first instance for not attackiog the French, was
now gone by, when it required the energies of the to be blamed for rot leaving Massena to take posses.
Government to rouse the nation to meet the threat of , sion of Busaco. If they looked back at the nature of
1 the enemy :o invade this country, by the energy and , these prophecies, they might be satisfied that Lord
skill of the Government. It was not, therefore, ne- ; Wellington had disappointed the Hon.-General in his
cessary to call the attention of the Committee to the , expectations, for he had supposed the cause would be
means of augmenting the Army, but as to the means worse than they found it. The expence of the cam-
by which they might be kept effective and complete. paign was also represented to be of greet magnitude,
—The progress of ordinary recruiting was confined but the expellee was light to what it would be, if the
to certain limits ; and from the present state of agri- war was carried on nearer our own shores, or in Ire-
culture and commerce, it was found that very few land. On thewhole, he conceived that while Ministers
men were to be induced by the bounty which this were doing their best in Portugal, they were doing the
mode held out : 11,000 men was the ordinary number j best for the country.
enlisted annually, but last year there were not so General TARLETON, in explanation, again de-
many, there being great obstacles iii the way from precated the war on the Continent, and contended,
the Ballot for the Militia, as numbers held back for that it was only calculated to promote the views of
the greater bounty. It was proposed, therefore, that Bonaparte. When all our resources were gone, the
there should be permitted voluntarily to enlist from Emperor of France would avail himself of his long-
the Militia into the line 10,000 men annually. It was meditated plan of invasion. The cause in Spain, he
also intended to permit a portion of the Irish Militia said, was almost hopeless. A cry of No, No, by an
to volunteer into the line, and without going into fur.' , Honourable Member followed the last assertion, in
ther discussion, he intimated his intention to move for ' consequence of which the Honourable General
oh.
leave to bring in a Bill to that effect. served, gg I should like to know whether the exertions
General TARLETON said he did not mean to of the Spaniards are like what they were three years
assume to himself greater wisdom, or military expe. ago ?' He approved of the plan of removing the Irish
rience than was possessed by other Members of the Militia to England, and the English to Ireland.
House, but the Continental war in which we were en- Mr. CANNING could not suffer an opportunity
gaged appeared to him so impolitic, that.)te could not to pass without expressing
.his opinion on the general
let that opportunity escape him of deprecating it.— policy by which the British Army then stood su-
The experience we had had, he thought was sufficient penny to the troops of France oa the Peninsula.—
to convince every reflecting man, that our exertions on With respect to the responsibility attached to those
the continent, instead of diminishing the power of 80. who advised the campaign in Portugal, be would say,
naparte, tended only to increase it, while we lost the when the question was to be tried, he would be ready
lives of our most valuable soldiers, who ought to de- to take his share of it. In that measure there had
fend our own country, and maintain it as a rallying been as much wisdom as policy., We had defended
point for other nations who should wish to shake off our country at a distant point, in conjunction with our
the yoke of the tyrant. The campaign of the much allies ; but the Hon. General had told them that they
lamented Sir John Moore sufficiently proved that no had commenced the campaign in Spain, and were
effectual co-operation would be given by the Spaniards, then obliged to defend Portugal. While Spain was
and the history of Lord Wellington's army equally defensible, it was our interest to defend it, and if we
shewed that we were incapable of rendering our allies were confined in the lines of Lisbon at present, it was
any effectual assistance, as was evident from the fall still our duty to stand firm against the enemy. He
of Ciudad Roderigo and Almeida. The Honourable did not mean when he made this assertion, to concur
General then detailed the whole operations of Lord in the predictions of the Hon. General. Did the
on the Peninsula, and contended that they Honourable General and his friends think that they
. _ . .
their - - with

.

had not a right to compare .._ predictions
the vaunting of the enemy;—the boast that the
Eagles of Fiance should be planted on the walls of
Lisbon.' He was not discontented if he could pro*
that Lord Wellington had confined, against• his wilt,
the best General of Bonaparte, against whom all the.
States of the Continent had crumbled. He was not
discontented if he could prove that Lord Wellington
had, between the living and the dead, withstood the
'tempest which so longmenaced the independence of
the world. When he saw him, like a skilful Com-
mander, adopt caution and delay, the presumption
was, that the British had mai;ttained a contest which
Bonaparte did not expect to encounter. If it could
be proved, that it was to our advantage to keep
the resources of the Country at home, yet he would
say, from the altered tone of Bonaparte, and other,
effects produced by the Campaign in Portugal, that
our exertions had obtained well earned advantages.
By making the Peninsula the area of the battle, we
had kept it from our shores, and if it should unfortu-
nately reach us, we should then have the pleasing sa-
tisfaction of saying, that we had opposed the enemyl
with all his resources, under circumstances glorious to
the British arms. But when they came to add the
moral ednsideration attached to the campaign, all
would say the British character had been elevated.
The behaviour of our troops abroad would convince
the world that France could not be at rest at home.
Here the Right Hon. Gentleman quoted, in support
of the British spirit, several lines from Shakespeare's
Play of King John--
" What! shall we seek the lion ?" &c.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then contended that
the system of the Peninsula was justified on principles
of wisdom and policy.
General TA RLETON again explained; and hav-
ing made an allusion to sear% British Officers out
of the country,
Mr. CANNING in reply observed, that gofer from
being desirous of seeing all the Officers sent on foreign
service, it was his wish to see the Honourable Officer
remain in that House to criticise the battles of Lord
Wellington.— (A laugh.)
The remaining Estimates were then agreed to, and
the Report ordered to be received to-morrow.
The Silk Manufacturers Bill was ordered to be read
a third time on Wednesday.
Accounts were moved for, of all interest paid on
Exchequer Bills for three years, ending in Januarii
IBll.—Ordered.—Adjourned at halt-past twelve.

Troops . was an i , ___ Wellington e ,
a decrease of expenditure to the amount of WO. The were injudicious and fruitless; but it would be for the
pay of drum and trumpet majors had been equalizes House to express its opinion upon them, when Mini-
with that of serjeants, which produced an expenditure sters should produce authentic information upon the
of two or three thousand pounds per annum. There subject. He did not mean to say any thing disrespect-
had been a decrease of 430,000 on the Dragoon ful personally to Lord Wellington, nor was he ac-
Guards, as also a further decrease in consequence tuated by any feeling of rivalship towards him •
of the transfer of the province of finding forage to (A Laugh);—but he condemned the system on which
the Commissariat in• Ireland. The 97th Regiment ho acted. He lamented that so many of our troops
had been originally composed of foreigners, but were sent to die in a foreign land, in a hopeless cause,
having been gradually reunited in this country, it while this country was neglected. He knew that very
bad been judged expedient to place them on a few reviler troops were left in Ireland in its• present
footing with regiments of the line, and an increase situation, because he knew that that country ought
of estimate resulted from this measure, as also never to be without at least 25,000 men to support the
from the New Brunswick fencibles having extend- militia and yeomanry, either in repelling invasion, or
ed their services, and being in consequence trans- repressing rebellion.
C
ferred from unnumbered to numbered corps. The Lord ASTLEREAGH said, he saw no reason
increase in unnumbered corps eras to the amount of for withholding the usual votes. He should take alio-
-4,8,000. The waggon train Consisted originally of ther opportunity of delivering his opinion upon the bill
twelve troops, an ordev was made for their reduction intended to be pro4uced by the Noble Lord, but he
to seven ; three were reduced, two were serving with hoped that nothing would be permitted to interfere
Lord Wellington, and two others were sent out to with the Local Militia system, which had been so hap.
supply their place ; but Lord Wellington had derived pily established, and which received the cordial sup.
such benefit from their services, that he made a repre. port of all classes of men. It would secure the per-
sentation of the expediency of retaining the four troops. manent defence of the empire. He entirely approved
Two more had been sent out since, besides one sent to of recruiting the regular army from the militia, be-
Cadiz. The reduction of the Manx Fencibles caused cause experience convinced him of its efficacy, and he
a decrease of 434,000. In miscellaneous charges there thought every encouragement ought to be given to the
was a decrease of £185,000. A decreise of £330,000 militia service itself. He wished to see the militia re-
bad resulted from deductions out of what was termed giments of England sent for a time to Ireland ; and
Non-effective pay. He had endeavoured to separate those of Ireland to come to England, because that in-
all contingent charge, the very name by which they tercourse between the people of both countries would
went pointing out the expediency of so doing. In produce that unity of feeling wherewith they should
regiments serving in the East Indies, in consequence be animated. The advantages derived by the Eng•
of the addition of two recruiting companies, there was lish and Scots militias, by residence in counties dis.
an increase of 1320,000, and a decrease of 2000 men. tent from their own, were known, and however much
For the Militia there was only an increase of £185,000. the disposition of the Irish had been misrepresented
The increase on account of Staff and Garrison was, by designing men, he was confident they never
460,000, 437,000 of which were for Ireland : 42000 would lose their national character, but exercise their
were saved by retirement of Officers serving in Inva. accustomed frankness and good nature towards the
lids. An increase of £l9OO arose from a saving on; English soldiers. It would be the duty of the latter
certain fees • 41000 on half-pay of military allow. I also to ,convince the Irish of the security which the
antes, and :e'240,000 had been recovered from the I laws afforded them, and of the necessity of obeying
hands of Prize Agents. There was an increase of , them.
45000 on the Pensions of Widows. A decrease ofl Mr. WHITBREAD would not then give any opi-
-4300 on account of Volunteers, chiefly in Ireland. I nion upon the plan proposed by the Noble Secretary
—Sixty-one thousand pounds have also been saved `for maintaining our military force ; but he knew that
in consequence of the time of service of the Local I no good effect could result from bringing the Irish
Militia having been reduced from 2e to fourteen days. I militia into this country, unless the disabilities under
le-Thus there would appear aaliminution of £lO,OOO which the Catholics now laboured were removed.
In the expences of training. The next subject his 1 . Lord PALMERSTON explained.
Lordship adverted to was the Foreign Corps, which i Mr. WHITBREAD said,
to
looking at the de- ' -
amounted to age2oo,ooo ; and upon this branch ofl partment for military accounts, an establishment
the Army there would appear a diminution of 2194 which had taken place about three years since, he • Report relative to the detention of COLVILLE,
men, in consequence of the defective state of the Malta thought it very extraordinary that in so short a time ,in the House of Correction, Cold Bath Fields.
' regiment. In the estimate for the Military College, one of the Inspectors of Army Accounts had been al-
there .would appear a deficiency of 429,700, which lowed to retire on a pension. He hoped the Noble The Secret Committee, appointed to enquire into the cir-
cumstances connected with the detention of Com.s.s,
arosefrom a further sum being necessary to complete Lord would give him some explanation on the subject. sew a Prisoner in the House of Correction in Cold Bath
the buildings of that establishment. There would also The next point he had to notice was the state in which Fields; and tb report the matter as it shall appear tothem
appear a partiel increase of expence in the Ordnance Catholic soldiers would stand, when they , came to to the House—
Department, in consequence of the removal of the England to fight our battles. A Right Honourable sc Have proceeded In the investigation of the matter
Ordnance Cadets back to Woolwich. In the Mai. Gentleman 'had said, that the laws now in force referred to them ; and have inspected various docu-
tary Asylum there was also some increase for pro. against Catholic soldiers were a dead letter, but it was refers and examined several witnesses, tithesrelave to the
vision and clothing ; for retired chaplains, and the certainly arnatter of great importance to know whether causes and circumstances of the detention of aid
sick in hospitals an increase of £16,000; for hospital' they were repealed. Colville, the mode of his confinement, and the nature
expences, £17,000 ; 3€600 for ,the Compassionate 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, of his treatment in Prison'
List ; and £7OOO for transferring Contingencies. In expressed a hope that th'e Honourable Gentleman 66 Your Committee Report, That there appears to
the Irish Commissariat, the Increase of charge for (Mr, Whitbread) did not wish to damp the motion have been sufficient cause for 4is seizure and deten-
cavalry was about £77,000, front which Was to be of the Noble Lord, or impede the service of the coun- tion ; and they are decidedly of opinion, that on public
deducted a sum of £4OOO in the contract for grt. tiy, by introducing topics on which there was some ', grounds it is necessary that be should remain in con-
Coats, leiving an increase of iE73,000, Upon age,. difference o t opinion of a delicate nature. Some finement ; It does not appear to your Committee,
oeral view of the subject, therefore, there appeared a conciliation might be necessary, but if conciliation was that he has suffered any inconvenience which is not
decrease of numbers 514, and All Ancrease of charge the only obstacle to the motion, he hoped it would incident to the description of place in which he is de-
of R 142,000, against this charge might be placed the not be increased by the Honourable Gentleman., tained ; but they are of opinion, that the Regulations
saving by the diminution in the training of the Local The law, as it stood, admitted Irish Militias to come of such a Prison are inconsistent with the nature of
Militia, of 460,000. In the variety of these details over. at was 'known that Catholic soldiers were the confinement to which he ought to be subjected,
the Noble Lord cool
not to into the particular mi. serving in the ranks in England, and was it to be ' and with that security from communication with per-
nu of each head of estimate, as it would be tree- supposed that the law alluded to would rise to a' sons out of the Prison, which isnacessary for the object
passing too much on the patience of the Committee, greater degree of severity ? He hoped, on the whole, 'of his detention.
and as other opportenities would be given to go more that the measure proposed by his Noble Friend would i 66 Your Committee, from obvious considerations
not be found jecenvenient. Much had been said by .of
Into detail ; he would, however, give any further public expediency, have felt ittheir duty, in making
explanation that might be required of him. But he an Honourable General on the subject of defending
es most auz'ous to call the attention of ;be Coniirit• rottullal• He would only allude au their Report to the House, to refrain from entering
the inaliner is into skt particular circumstances of dm case."
•

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