Star.
London, England, 1803-05-14 00:00:00

PARLMMENTART PRUCLEDIAGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, MAY 13.
Counfel was heard in the Scotch Appeal Catfe the Carron
Company v. Ogilvie. The further hearing was deferred till
Monday.
The Nottingham Eleeli,n Regulation Bill palled through the
Contudttee, and the Report wad ordered for Monday.

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Lord Kix°, agreeably to his notice on a pre-
ceding day, rofe to make a few obfervations on
the Accounts which had been for feveral weeks
lying on the Table. His Lordfhip declared, that,
if any other Noble Lord had !hewn x difpofition
to take up this bufinefs, he fhould willingly have
given up the matter into his hands. He conlidered
it important, however, that the Papers Ihould not
lie on the Table unnoticed by the Houfe. They
had already produced an impreflion which was to
be regretted, as expeaations had been railed which ,
could never be realized. At fuch a critical period
as the prefent, it was highly important that the
people fhould not be deceived refpeaing the real
fituation of the Country. It could promote no
ufeful purpofe to circulate exaggerated flatenients
of the amount of the Public Revenue. On the
contrary, at a period when the people might be
called on to make great facrifices, it was highly
expedient that they fltotild know precifely in what
fituation the exilling revenues of the country were
to be conGdered. Having thus truly introduced
the fubjeft, his Lordfliip entered into a feries of mi-
nute calculations to Thew that the flatements of the
public revenue, as deferibed in the accounts on the
table, were exaggerated to the amount of upwards
of two millions. We avoid following him through
there details, as the llatements were fo minute
that accuracy could hardly be expeaed, and the
general refult puts our Readers in poffeffion of
the general fafl. Having fortified and illuftrated
his Itatements, his Lordfhip with confolerable
energy prefied the neceffity of inquiry into a fub-
jea at all times fo important ; but in peculiarly
uneteßingly critical as was the prefent Rate of,
the country. He took occafion to deliver his
opinion of Minifters in very explicit terms. They
were men who appeared to him totally unqualified
to pref.:de over the deßinies of a great Empire, at
a molt difficult and trying crifis. In every part of
their adminiftration they had given clear indica-
tion of unfitnefs and incapacity for Government.
—ln the management of the finances, they had
evinced more than ordinary ignorance and incapa-
city. He fat down, by moving, that the financial
accounts on the table fhould be referred to a Com-
mittee, to examine their nature and report an opi-
nion to the Home.
Lord Aye x LAND, in a very perfpicuous fpeech,
defended his previous Ratements. He thought that
the motion of the Noble Lord was totally unne-
eeffary. The publicity given to the confideration
of public accounts, in confequence of the arrange-1
menu made by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Pitt), who with loch fingular ability prefided over
the finances of the country, fuperfeded the need.
fity of fuch a motion. It would be fufficient for
every ufeful purpofe if the Noble Lord, following
the fame plan adopted in the other Houle of Par-
liament, chafe the more contrary refolutions. His
Lordliiip explained the motives which had chiefly
induced him to with the matter to be brought un-
der difcuffion. So far back as the beginning of Fe-
bruary, papers on the fubjeft bad, on the motion
of a Noble Lord oppofste, been laid on the table.
On the 25th of March be had put into his hands a
!tumult in which the financial fituation of the
evaintry was mifreprefented in the groat! manner. •1
It was in order to do away the impreflion of thefe
fiatements, and to put the people in this country,
as well as the powers of the Continent, in poffeffion
of our real fituation, of the magnitude of our re-
fources to meet any emergency. that he waked
the matter to he confidered. Whatever fomeNoble
Lords might fay to the contrary, it was undeni-
able that under our prefent fyftem of commercial
regulations our commerce had increafed to a degree
almoft beyond belief. Since the year 178 t, the
!Nipping of this country had been doubled, and
fusee 1789 it had been nearly tripled. His Lord-
fhip, before he fat down, adverted to fume opi-
nions he had expreffed refpetling the importance
of revenues. He denied that he had ever main-
coined that revenue alone was neceffary in war.—
He was finificiently aware that it was only one of
the numerous means of fuccefs. Thefe means
were. however. intimately conneded, and no wife
man would under-rate the importance of financial
refource, in fuflainiog a great national ftruggle.
His Lordfhip fat down, by giving his vote plait
the motion.
The Earl of Motu role, and began by paying
a very handfome compliment to the talents which
the Noble Lord had evinced in bringing forward
the prefent motion, and congratulated the country 11
on the benefits which might be hoped from the
future exertion of them. It was not, he laid, that
the Noble Lord had given a promife of fuperior
abilities; he had aaually given a moR animated
proof of them. His Lordthip then acknowledged
that he was very glad the Noble Lord who fpoke
lag bad Rated him to be the firft caufe of there
accounts having been produced. He had, indeed,
moved for that paper to which the Noble Lord
bad alluded, and to which he had attributed fo
many errors. He had been induced to move for
it, in confequence of the fkatement given in ano-
ther place as to the finances of the country ; and
to thew the fallacy of which, be moved for the
paper alluded to. Nothing could, in his mind,
be more mifchievous in its confequences, or more
injurious to the etrential intereßs of a nation, fitu-
aced as this is at the prefent moment, than to hold
forth a delofive And fallacious Ratement of the
flouriflung Rate of its finances. It was rather in
combent on us to look our tituaticn boldly in the
face, and to tell the people what they
icaliy end
truly had to cape& 'I he Noble Lord w lin fp,:ke
lift had laid, with coniderable exultati,:n, that
our reyenne 141 t year amounted to upwards of
14, 000,c^,01. and this he had called a magnificent
receipt. The Noble I And bRCICeTIMIIIy a rilla to ap.
ply to it the term magnzticent, if he pleaftci fo todu;
Lot then he Mould, at the fame time, confider Low
slat receipt became fo very magnificent. Ile fhouid

recolleet that it was owing to a ion and highly
increafing fy ftcm of taxation, that our permanent
revenue had become In truly magnificent ; and he
(hould alto be ready to tell the people, that, ac-
cording to prefent appearances, it would be ne-
ceflary for them to look forward to more taxes
than thole with which they are already burthened,
to keep up this magnificent receipt. The furplus
which it is pretended we have over and above the
expenditure of the preterit year, was taken, he
laid, upon a fuppofition of the continuance of
Peace, and on a calculation of the reduCtions which
may naturally be fuppofed to follow a Peace ella-
blifhment. In order to fupport this idea of the
continuance of Peace, the Noble Lord, and thole
who hold the fame financial doetrines with hi
' mull fuppofe that France would give up Holland
I and the Netherlands ; that the would forfwear all
interference with Switzerland ; that fire would give
up her power over all Italy, which had been placed
under her entire direCtion and controul ; and that
the would alto forego the afcendancy the had gain-
ed over the Court of Spain, and proteft againfl
any interference which might difturb the peace and
tranquillity of Portugal. Intlead of this, the No-
ble Lord had exprefsly acknowledged, that from
the time of figningthe treaty of Amiens to the pre-
lent Moment, France had never (hewn the flighteti
difpofition towards conciliation. What then,
afked the Noble Lord, became of the calculation
made on reduftions applicable to a Peace Ella-
blithment ? How was it pollible that any confidence
could be placed on fuch redunions ? That every
calculation, relative to our Finances, ought to
have been made on the certainty of a Peace Via-
blifhment, was molt true. When he gave his vote
in favour of the Peace, he did it in confidence that
it would be a real and permanent Peace ; in a
thorough belief and full convidion that both coun-
tries had teen the folly, nay madnefs, of perfift-
ing in a defirative waste of blood and treafure,
and that both, heartily wearied with the fruitlefs
effedts of a fanguinary and uncertain conteft,
had determined to make a peace which fhould
be tatting, and which fhould, in fome meafure,
repay the people of both countries for the firffer-
ings and misfortunes they had fo long and fo pa-
tiently endured. It was not potfible for him, or
the other Noble Lords who had voted for the
eace in the fame confidence that he had, to
know that the Government of France, in No-
vember 'all, was not inclined to keep the peace.
If they had, they would immediately have called
on it for a change of condud, or have refilled
to have given up the Cape, and thofe other
places then in our poffeflina, which were to be
ceded by us, as the lamellate of that Peace, which
was not, nor could by any poll bility be of any
value to this country, unlefs it was to be effeEtual
and permanent. His Majefty's Minillers, how-
ever, were very differently &mated ; they mutt
have known whether the Government of France
was inclined to keep the peace or not, and if they
fuppofed it was not, they certainly were highly
culpaMe in making calculations founded on re-
duCtions, applicable only to a peace eftablifttment.
'They ought rather to have calculated the other
way ; and inftead of holding out to the public
the delufive appearance of having a confiderable
furplus, over and above the expenditure need.
Cary for the prefent year, they fhould have fairly
and candidly told them their real fituation, and
have (hewn them the necafity of making up their
minds to the payment of further taxes, which it
was highly probable the fluftuating events of
the prefent day would render it indifpenfibly re-
quilite to call for. His Lordfltip lamented that
no information had yet been given which could
lead to any fixed opinion upon the fubjeft—all
was at prefent doubt and uncertainty ; and in
fech circumftances, that Houle and the Public
thrll,' not be kept in a (late of delufion. For
his parr, he was convinced, with the Noble
Lord, who brought forward the motion, that in.
f: ad of a furplus, there would be found a de-
ficit of upwards of two millions; and therefore
the motion had his hearty fupport.
Lord Garsviais, though agreeing in the ge
neral argument of the Noble Lord who introduced
the cubic& %rinsed to Bate what was the peculiar
view of the fubjell which he himfelf entertained.
He had no conteft to maintain with any Noble
Lord ; but thought that at relent he was called
upon to difcharge a grave and important public
duty. Miniiter had too long gone on in a fyftem
of concealment, and the Noble Lord in agitating
the prefent queftion deferved his belt thanks. In
the prefent awful fituation of pubic affairs, it was
elTential that the real fituation of the country fhould
be known. Parliament, at a period when we might
be called on to male the greateft exertions, and
fubmit to the largefi facrifices, ought above all
things to know whether the revenue of the country
had been placed on a footing equal to its expendi-
ture ; or whether there trilled a great deficiency,
which was to be fupplied by that certain fource of
national ruin, the expedient of peace loans ? While
anxious to have fuch an inquiry inftituted, his
Lordthip begged it to be clearly underflood, in-
deed it was hardly necefiary for him to ftate this,
that it was very remote from his intention to (peak
lightly of the reknirces of the country. No man
could be more convinced than he was, that in a
legitimate caufe the country poi:relied means not
merely of effedually refitting aggreffion, but If
upholding undiminithedthenadonal independence,
and making any power grievoufly repent any at-
tempt to &boy that independence. It would,
however, be a bale dereliaioii in any Noble Lord
to shrink back from the talk of endeavouring to
arcertain how far the refources of the country had
been called into aflivity, fo as to make the public
revenue correfpond with the public expenditure.
'Dm particular inquiry now propofed originated
out of circuniftances which would be fleas in
their Lordfhips' recolleCtion. It could not be for-
gotten, that at a very unufual period of the feffion,
at the diltar.ce of a very few days from the reeds,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had thought pro-
rer to 1.4 before the other Houle of Parliament
tie an!lc.pated budget of the year. He would not
was no reafon for making thole ex•
tra:1:1;.-try proceedings, and that it was not de.
fq7ned to e..lnbit a true pieture of the ma! fatiauon
• •

of the Wintry. Even in that cafe, however, it
betrayed incontrovertible proofs of ignorance, and
coming to the public as it did, from authority, and
profelfing to exhibit a view of the financial (late of
the country, it was proper that it thould he fully
canvaffed. How far this imaginary budget was
confident with truth, would, he was afraid, be but
ton apparent when the real budget was brought
forward ; ,an event there was every reafon to fun-
pore could not be delayed beyonda very few weeks.'
In calculating what were the wants of the year,
and what the income of the country, the quettion
came to be, whether a loan was neceffary ? 'l'o
anfwer thisquellion,in the paper whichhelield in his
hand, (a printed -.copy of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer's fpeech,) a ftatement was given of the
at-WA expenditure and revenue of the country.—
The refult of this flatemera was, that after ample
provifion was made for the different branches of
the public fervice, their would remain a furplus of
a million applicable to u hatever emergency might
occur. He was fore that Noble Lords had not
forgotten the impreition which this flatement pro•
duced among all ranks in the community. It was
not eafy to defcribe the pleafure excited by the af-
furance that fo &writhing was the Rate of the re-
venue as to leave a million applicable to extraordi-
nary purples, or to the liquidation of the national
debt, after covering all the expenditure, extentive
as it was, at the conclution of a long war. He be-
lieved that with the people of the city it was not
long before doubts of the accuracy of the ftatement
began to be entertained. He would go farther, and
would affert that a very (bore interval took place
before it was generally difcredited. It was at this
period, when it was falling into general contempt,
that a Noble Lord oppotite (Lord Auckland) had
fleppedforward,and not contented with offering to
prove that the flatement was not exaggerated, de-
clared himfelf ready to (hew that it even fell confi-
derably below the truth. After ti earing this declara-
tion, he was ready to confefs that he had no longer
any doubt of the neeeMty of inßituting an inquiry
into the fubjeet. It was high time that the truth of
the cafe fbould be known, when the truth of the
Ratement bad been upheld not merely in the city,
or among a largo proportion of the public, but,
by a Noble Lord, who might be fuppofed to have
the belt opportunities of information. He was
glad that the Noble Lord who introduced the dif-
cutflon, had given him an opportunity of deliver-
ing his fentiments. What he undertook to prove
was, not merely that there citified no furplus re-
venue, but, that a deficit, to a large amount, did
exilt, which could be covered only by reforting to
the ruinous fyltem of peace-loans, a fyftem never
fufficiently to be reprobated by every wife govern-
ment. In proving this he ()meld be able clearly to
demonttrate the exitlence of the groffeft and incr.
cufable errors ; errors amounting to a deficiency
of five millions, inftead of a furplus of one, as re-
prefented in the featement. In the Ratements he
thould make, he wifhed to apprife Noble Lords,
that he thould, with the exception of one or two
cafes, draw all his fats from the accounts on the
table ; from there accounts he would leave them
to judge of the fallacy and delution of the Rate-
meat which had been fo triumphantly held out to
the country. The whole of the expenditure, as
defcribed in this Ratement, was eleven million. five
hundred and thirty thoufand pounds ; from which,
dedufeing the two Irith feverateenths, and a further
rum payable by Ireland on the Confnlidated Fund,
the amount was ten millions thirty-three thoufand
pounds. To this, a further fum of five hundred
thoufand pounds, arifing from the intereft on Ex-
chequer Bills, making the whole amount ten
millions five hundred and thirty thonfandpounds,
In this enumeration of the public expenditure,.
there \vas one important article wholly overlook-
ed. This was the expence of extra building for
the navy, which. within the halt year, he was
informed on the belt authority, could not have
been left than nine hundred thoufand pounds
Without (eying any thing of the prefent Rate of the
navy, which might be a fubjedt of future enquiry,
he begged leave to Rate, that this was not a charge
confined to a particular year, but one which was
permanent. During the nine &ft years of the lag
peace, the expellee for this article was not Ids than
soo,oool. But when the greater fine and number
of our (hips was confidered, and when, at the fame
time the increafed price of labour was taken into
view, the fame article could not, at this moment,
colt lets than (even hundred thoufand pounds.—
Let the (urn which he had mentioned be added to
the former amount, and the refult would be, that
the grofa amount of our expenditure would be
above eleven millions two hundred and thirty-three
thoufand pounds. In order to meet this expendi
titre. the annual taxes and the furplus of the confo-
lidated fund were defcribod as amounting to ten
millions five hundred and ninety-two thoufand
pounds of clear revenue, undeillanding by that
term, a revenue exiting after provifion was made
for the iutereft of the payment of the public debt.
The lottery was to be added to this, and though
inllead of five hundred thoufand pounds only
three hundred and feventy thoufand ought to
he taken credit for, yet he was willing to give
credit for the former fum. A further fum of live
hundred thoufand was to be obtained as a contri-
bution from India. This, it was to be remem-
bered, was only a contingent advantage. If
the Noble Lord who prefided over this depart-
ment of the Public Service, knowing, as he did,
the talents and knowledge of the noble Lord, in
every branch of the public fervice, had given any
pofitive pledge that this (urn might certainly be
calculated on. he thould look forward with confi-
dence to fuch a pledge. No fuel' pledge as this,
however, had been received. On the contrary,
it exprefsly depended on two circumllances, the
continuance of peace both in Eurcpe and India.—
How far it was probable that peace might be con-
tinued in Europe, he would not now take on han-
fell to determine. But even fuppoting that the
peace of Europe was preferved, was not the peace
of India liable to numerous interruption‘, which
would neceffarily fuperfede the contribution ? But
allowing credit to be taken for this fun., and for
the lottery, the whole amount would be I I, 595 oocl.
Having Rated this, his Lordfhip proceeded to in-
quire more minutely how far the reverse did

exceed the expenditure He dented to
know ~1 Nittinters what were the circumflanceson
which they grounded any expelations of a reduc-
tion of the national expenditure at the time when
the tlatcment was produced. Miniflers were prelTed
to fay, at the time when the peace ellablilhment
was formed, what hopes they entertained of any
redulion in that ellablithment, and their anfwer
was not Inch as to encourage this hope. What
was to he thought of a Minifter who held out a
vagne expedition of this kind, merely with the
t view of exhibiting a piastre of the national reve-
-1 one, which he was confeicus was not correct ? It
was dangerous and improper to form diaant efli.
mates of redaction on the public expenditure, but
if this was a principle at all times to be aged on,
it W. 15 more peculiarly requisite when it was im.
poflible to forefee the probability of (itch redudion.
However large the expenditure might be, the fame
principle Applied to the propriety of railing the
revenue to a corresponding magilitude. He war;
afionilhed to hear fomething like a contrary doc-
trine advanced by the noble Lord on the other ride.
What was the Bate of the nation, if Inch a dodrio-
was ever carried into practice? Nothing but tins
,was wanting to fill tip the meafure of cledrußiois
this devoted country. Hi, Lordfhip, after going
into the illuftration of this point with his ufual
force, proceeded to animadvert on the nature of
the propofed reduction. On the fuppolition that
there was a reduCtion in the expenditure of the
army to the amount of 800,0001. what events have
been.the confequence ? He had no other means of
calculation, but by applying this to the reduCtioa
of men. He did not over-rate the matter, when he
Paid this would have oceafioned the difcharge of
,5,000 foldiers. But, if fince November to the time
when his Majeßy's mefrage was delivered, Inch a
number of men had been diftailfed, the obvious
confequence would have been, that there would
not have been a tingle regiment of infantry is
Great Britain or Ireland. The propofed reduetioa
was, therefore, totally inconfitlent with every con-
fider ation of fafety. Let the fame principle be ap.
plied to the Navy. Admitting. as was hinted at,
that a reduillion in the expenditure, to the amount
of tdoo,oool. had taken place, the diminution of
feamen would have been not lefs than 18,000.
Now, without alluding particularly to what the
prefent Rate of the Navy was, he would only fay.
that if the diminution had taken place, we Should
have now no navy at all. The amount of the re-
duaion, of expenditure by this plan, would have
been two millions three hundred and forty thoufand
pounds, but there was not the fmallell reafon to
calculate on any reduCtion, and therefore the eta.
blithment ought to have Rood in November IA at
thirteen millions four hundred and eighty-fix thou-
land, Maud of the furor taken by Minifters. This,
with the fum of pretended furpleis, created a rola
and palabk error in thy: calculation. His Lord-
Ship was particularly pointed en this topic. fie
went on to make other calculations. to &est than
a much larger deficit than this really etifled. He
recurred to what had been Paid about the rata for
extra building for the navy, which being an ar-
ticle . f unavoidable espence, ought not to have
been ',witted. He touched on the prefent ditties
on malt and hopes. The amount of there depend.
cd in a great meafure op the feafon, and becaufe
they woe high lad year. it was.not fair to. take
them at the fame amount for other years- There
was a circumftance worthy of their Lordilaips' at-
tention. It was, that the duties on matt were higher
by five hundred thourand pounds left year than they
had been nn an average of ten years. The amount
of the duties on sugar had been much exaggerat-
ed as a pit of general revenue. With the glut
thkt prevailed, both for confumption and exporta-
tion, thersmight hereafter be expeded to be a mow-
fsderable deficiency of the duty. Taking-there
' circutnltances into confederation, and others which
he enumerated, his Lordihip contended that the
public reroute was inferior by five -millions to
what the Chancellor of the Exchequer reprefeot-
ed. He pointed out very eameftly the difadvan-
tages to be encountered in going ta war under
fuch circumflances, and took oecafion to pars fount
very fevere ftriftures °lithe general condatt of ifs-'
nilters. He had n difguifed the fentiments
he entertained of their adminiftration. He had
never wished to conceal his difapprobation of the
whole of their conduCi. Bet though the whole of
their dornellic adrniniftration, though the whole
of their foreign policy, and the condua of their
negociations, had been condemned by him in
the Orongeft manner; though he thought. their
orders and their counter-orders; their armaments
and difarmarnents; their revocations and their
counter.revocations. were marked with the rented
potlible proofs of imbecility, incapacity and folly.
yet, he thought that thefinancialadminiftratioawai
that molt particularly worthy of animadverfica.
Here the Noble Lord was called to order by
The Earl ofCovcarav,whocondemned thishaifh
language, and fuggefted that the Noble 'Lord
would be proceeding more regularly if he.moved
an addtefs to his Majesty, praying that he would
&finds his present fervants from his counfels.
Lord GRENVILLI ott riling. fully adn. .ted the
right of the Sovereign to appoint his own
without the choice of Parliament. While he al.
lowed that this was flritillyconftitutional, he never
would ceale to maintain 'the right of Parliament
i to exercife a jealous watch over the condua of :he
! Nlinillers of the Crown. As a Peer of "'Atli/sing'
!he never Ihould forego this right, but humid it%
lall cafes continue to'e3ercife it• with freedom un.
reßrained by any conliderations but thole of re-
tonal decency. To Miniflers individually lie e
tcrtained no fentiments of ill He diflike
their meafures and lamented ti.eir incapacity.
Reverting to the financial department. his Lard
Ship examined in detail all the great financial rea
Sloes of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, each C
which he warmly condemned. It was in this •:e
partment more than in any other that Mini.le
had Shrunk from the difficulties of the country.
The Earl ntWasrmo AAAAA nollferved.that it w 3
extremely difficult to make an eftimate with any p:
bable degree of certainty in time of war. If the
was any thing like a material deficiency in ^1
branch of our revenue, a very confiderable flu r;ti
would be found in another department odour

■

Itc refources. The Noble Lord bad Aden laft
year as the criterion by which he might form a
judgment of the flare of our finances. That ap
peared to him at leaft an objeaionable mode ; and
he would Thew that, on an average of the laft

Tears, our revenue is in a Rate of improvement.
He alfo reminded the Noble Lord of the difficul
ties with which we bad to contend—the great es•
ertions and extended dominion of our rival nation.
With a Chief Conful, whole extraordinare power,-
influenced as far as the Adriatic on the one hand,
and to the Elbe on the other—they feemed, like
the ancient Kings of Perfia, almoll to think the
Continent their own.
Lord Ps sm•re referred to the obfervatinns made
by another Noble Lord (Lord Grenville). He
obferved, that the latter part of that Noble Lord's
fpeech had confiderably relieved his mind from the
apprehenfion he was under, in eonfequence of the
mode of argument adopted by the Noble Lord in
commencing his fpeech. At. the conchilion the
Noble Lord had reduced the fhppofed deficiency
of revenue to four millions. It mutt be confider-
ed that the King's fpeech oflaft year had expreffed
the great anxiety which his Majefty felt upon the
!late of the country in one particular point of view,
and had intimated a with that his Parliament
fhould make a (citable provifion for that partku-
Jar public exigency. In confequence of filch inti-
mation. Parliament had authorifed the expendi-
ture, and Minitlers had expended confiderable
Cams of money in bounties for the importation of
foreign corn ; that was an.objea which moil ne-
eelfarily facreafe our expenditure beyond what was
at &A -efikaated, and of cootie turn the balance
again@ our revenue. With refpel to the extra
building for the navy, which the Noble Lord had
alluded to, as not being mentioned in the accounts
before the Houle, be believed there was nothing on
the face of thefe accounts which would warrant the
Noble Lord in Paying that it was an omiflion.—
There was a general charge of expence incur ed
on account of the navy, which was Rated in round
numbers, without defcrioing the more minute par-
-ticulars of which it was formed. No deduaion
could, therefore, be fairly drawn as to what was
.or was not included in the general charge ; and he
had no doubt that filch expence was included in
it. There was another objeSl which the fpeech of
the Noble Lord alfo embraced—the Imperial Loan.
That had by Come been called a fubfidy ; in his
opinion it would have been a grofs impofition on
the public were Minifters to have called it fo ; for,
although it was evident that there was no item in
the account, which Rated that Aullria had ever
paid any portion of the principal or intereft, yet it
was equally certain that nothing appeared to (hew
that Auflria had refuted to pay : and he could
afore their Lordfhips that there was nothing which
had come within his knowledge which could in the
]tali induce him to have any doubt whatever of
the good faith of that refpatable ally. Still if,
notwithftanding any reafon which he might now
have to reptile fuck confidence in Aultria—Rill, he
Said, if any unforefeen event Should occafion the
nonpayment of that loan, and it would eyentually
become (as it mutt necefrarily do) payable by this
country, even then he would fay, that. admitting
it to be in its arca eqatnlati a fulafidis.,that Sill it
was advantageous to.the enanuy.:On the whole,
he could fee no retifoa for the iaterfereoce of Par-
liament to invelklaate eftimatea foemedkand
prices incurred, under fedi circumaancepaethai.
ima.which we were then placed. • . .
Lord Gaepp4s, etplained. Wu former de-
claration, or tuleull -what he had intended to fay,
vat, got that be meant to term the Imperial Loa:.
a.Cubfidy, but that, if it were converted into a
(stbfidy„ it would be even then an objet which the
country might confider in an advantageous point
of view, with refpea to the policy of the meature.
The Billsop of Sr. Asarw declared, that at
other times ,he might have thought the 41,44:1-lion
lion of the accounts .upon, their Lordllsips' table
abfolutely necellitry, becatife, if they were corral,
that correanefs would be belt eftablithed and moll
clearly freed from any imputation by an open and
fate enquiry, and, if they were incorrea, there was
witching which appeared to him more clear than
that error ought to be entreat& But, under the
relent circumtiances of the country, be thought
at.mould be extremely improper to take up the time
of their Lordibips in deliberating on the coffee-
aseCs of an account tonight, when. probably, they
might to-morrow require the attention and ability
of that. Houle to be engaged in a much more im-
pqrtamtobjetit of difcufflon, namely, the means of
checking the ambition and of punithing the info-
knee of—he did not know what to call him—he
mutt sot yet call him our enemy. but he, would call
him our we efstrial4 fritadi
.The question was then of on the original mo-
tion, which was negatived without a divifion.