Star.
London, England, 1821-08-22 00:00:00

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.11„joi, -qtAgleititribiZNV: Q UES T ON R. lIONEY.

FOURTH DAY, TUESDAY, AUGUST ea.
As we noticed in our last report, the Jury on its
rising on Monday night, was adjourned to the lute
Horse Inn, at Knightsbridge, at one o'clock. It was
the intention of the Jury to have proceeded from this
place, accompanied by the Coroner, to the Barracks,
there to be present at the inspection of the troops by
the witnesses. At one o'clock several of the Jury had
arrived, and very soon after that hour the whole of
them were assembled. It was, however, within a
few minutes of two before the Coroner made his ap-
pearance. The Jury, afraid of being delayed beyond
the hour appointed for the inspection of the troops,n
bad, before the Coroner's arrival, agreed to adjour
from the White Horse to the Rose and Crown, and a
notice to that effect was posted up outside the door
of the former place. Before the Jury acted upon this
determination the Coroner arrived, and preceded by
him the Jury went down towards the Barracks. We
should here observe, that some time before this the
gates of the Barrack-yard were closed, and prepara-
tions had commenced within for drawing up the
troops. Several of the witnesses were already in at-
tendance, and waited opposite the gates with their
tickets of admission. Mr. Alderman 'WAITHMAN,
Sir
RICHARD PHILLIPS, and some other Gentlemen, who
have been present at the Inquest every day, were also
in attendance; but it was not the intention of any of
them to seek for admission within the Barrack-yard.
At two o'clock the Jury, preceded by their Foreman
and the Coroner, went to the gates. On knocking for
admission one of the gates was opened, and some few
words passed between the soldier by whom it was
guarded. What these words were we were not near
enough to hear ; but immediately after the door was
closed, and the Coroner and Jury proceeded to a
small door leading to the Barrack-yard. There the
Coroner having knocked, the door was opened by a
dragoon, who demanded his business. The Coroner
told him that the Jury which had sat to ascertain the
cause of the death of It. Honey were in attendance,
and requested to be admitted to see the inspection of
the troops by the witnesses, and desired him to take
a message to this effect to his Commanding Officer.
—The dragoon shut the door, and after a short pause
it was again opened, when an Officer made his ap-
pearance a little way within the gate. Addressing
himself first to the soldier near him, he said, " The
Coroner must wait a little;" but perceiving the Coro-
ner standing in the door-way, he observed, very po-
litely, " You must wait for a short tiras Sir." The
door was again closed, and in a few moments was
re-opened. The sentinel again presented himself,
and asked the Coroner whether he had a ticket of
admission ? The Coroner replied, " Why I give the
tickets." Upon this the door was again closed, and
in the interim some of the Jury suggested that they
should get tickets. Some tickets were given to them,
which, on again demanding admission, they pre-
sented. The Coroner then entered, and was followed
by several of the Jury. Some, on being admitted,
presented their cards; others had none to present.
The Officer who stood inside, seeing several of the
Jury coming in at the same time, said to the sentinel,
" None must be admitted who have not tickets, and
must conic in one by one." Those Gentlemen of the
Jury who stood in front, some with and some with-
out tickets, were here most rudely pushed back by
two or three dragoons ; but not appearing to retreat
as quickly as was expected, an Officer said, in a harsh
and menacing tone, " Soldiers, do your duty." This
order was no sooner given than such of the Jury as
still continued in front were most rudely repelled by
the soldiers, one of whom struck a Juror a violent
blow on the face with his fist, with such force as
would have knocked him down if he had not been
held up by those behind. Some of the Jury had by
this time got in, but three or four who stood in the
door-way were forcibly driven back, and the door
shut in their faces. After a few moments, it was
again opened, and the other Jurors who had got
tickets were admitted. Those who had not were ex-
cluded. The violence thus offered to the persons of
the Jurymen was observed by some of the crowd of
about twenty-five or thirty persons who were outside,
and who expressed their disapprobation by some
hisses and cries of " shame !" The Jury and the Co-
roner remained in the barrack-yard for a short time,
but were not admitted to see any of the witnesses or
the troops, except these who were stationed inside the
door. Of what passed within the gates, we of course
can speak only from hearsay, not having been ad-
mitted. We were informed that the Jurors were
asked for tickets, and at the same time it was stated
to them that none would be received but such as
were signed with the names of the bearers. This, we
understood, was complied with by the Coroner sign-
ing the tickets with the names of those present ; but
eves this was not held sufficient, aad they were told
that none but witnesses could be admitted. The Jury
were then told that they must withdraw, or that they
would be put out by force. The Jury at length came
out evidently indignant at the treatment they had
received. They soon after assembled at the. Rose
and Crown Inn, but the room there not affording
sufficient accommodation, they adjourned to the Old
King's Head.
When the Jury had taken their seats in the great
room at the Old King's Head, the Coroner addressed
them as follows—" Gentlemen, since I entered the
room, I have received a letter signed by Mr. Hob-
house, in which he says—
Sui—l have laid before Lord Bathurst your letter of yes-
terday evening, and am directed to inform you that there ap-
pears no reason for altering the direction already given, as to the
manner in which the witnesses are to make their inspection of
the Life Guards. It may, however be right to observe, that as
tho examination before you appears not to be yet closed, it may
be for you and the Jury to consider whether it would not be
proper. to postpone the inspection till all the witnesses are eta-
smiled who wish to view the troops, as It would be inconvenient
and highly inexpedient to direct any further inspection.
" I remain, Sir, &e.
" H. HOBHOUSE' "
The Foreman.—lt should be matter of consider-
ation how tar this arrangement is consistent with the
convenience of the Jury. lam unwilling to agree
to any suggestion coming from that quarter, unless
our convenience be considered. If the Gentlemen of
the Jury be of opinion that they ought to procras-
tinate the inspection of these men until the final exam
ruination of the witnesses, so be it ; but I would not
put it off on account of the military.
Mr. Brows? (a Jurory.—The question is to know
whether bailment evidence has been given to satisfy

the minds of the Jury, so that they may be enabled
to return a correct verdict. Has there been a suffi-
cient inspection ?
A Juror.—l believe the witnesses are at this moment
inspecting the military.
A Juror.—They went to the barracks, but have
been turned out.
stated that he had been
-- Montague, a witness,
refused admittance.
The Foreman.— We don't know the quality of the
witnesses who have not yet been examined. If those
who are in attendance are likely to give more impor-
tant evidence than we have yet received, it would be
desirable to examine them ; but if not, it would he a
waste of time to receive a body of evidence which
has already been given.
Mr. Sheriff WI, an MAN.—I don't know that I shall
call a single witness more than 1 have already done.
I have reduced the list of witnesses under twenty, and
I will put it in the hands of the Jury. If any con-
tradiction appears between the witnesses already exa-
mined and those who may be brought forward here-
after, it will then be for the Jury. if they think proper,
to call any other individuals whose names are con-
tained in the list. I may, perhaps, call one witness ;
but Ido not know that I will. I wish everything to
be reduced to a certainty, as far as possible ; and 1
think nothing can be gained by a postponement of
the inspection of the military.
Mr. HANSON.--I will object to any witness being
called after I have adduced my witnesses. If such a
course be admitted, we may go on ad igfinitum.—
Whatever witnesses Mr. Sheriff Waithman chooses to
bring forward, he ought to call at once.
Mr. Sheriff WAITIINIAN.—The Learned Gentleman
mistakes my situation entirely. I am no prosecutor ;1
and it is for the Jury to say whom they will call, and
at what time. I have done my duty to this poor man's
relatives as far as possible ; but I think it would be
very useless to call additional witnesses, who could
only prove what has already been stated. Ido not
wish to call witnesses after I have heard the evidence
given by those whom the Learned Gentleman may
bring forward ; but I speak constitutionally when I
say that the Jury have a right to make whatever in-
quiry they please, and to call witnesses before them
when they please. I will give in the list, and then
the Jury can act as they think fit.
Mr. Spicer (a Juror).—l think you can say no more,
Sir. You have, as it appears, done with examining
witnesses on the one part, unless the Gentlemen of the
Jury, please to call them.
The Foreman.—l do not know why Mr. Sheriff
Waithman should be shut out from the inquiry.
Mr. Sheriff WAIT/IMAK.—This is not a party busi.
ness. It is a matter into which the Jury are to in-
quire, in order to satisfy their own minds and their
own consciences, that, in the end, they may return a
correct verdict.
Mr. Blakie.—We do not know whether it will be
proper or necessary to examine another witness, until
we have received the report of the persons who have
gone to the barracks. It is premature to talk of exa-
mining witnesses until we have seen those individuals.
We all know, that we have made an attempt to get
into the barracks, and we are equally aware of the
disgraceful manner in which we have been treated.
I wish to learn whether the Jury mean to let this
business fall to the ground, or whether they will take
some decided cognizance of it, to let the world know
how we have been treated as Jurors?
Mr. Brown.—The approbation of our own con-
sciences is sufficient. We have nothing to do with
the opinion of the world : we are to consider whether
the evidence already given is sufficient to satisfy
our minds.
Mr. Sheriff WAITHNIAN.—To save time, may we
not, while the witnesses are viewing the soldiers,
employ ourselves in discussing any other point that
may arise?
Mr. Blakie.—l wish our treatment not to be passed
over in silence. It ought to be taken into considera-
tion; particular cognizance ought to be taken of it.
The Foreman.—Certainly the conduct used towards
us is too gross to be borne.
Mr. Blakie.—Mr. Deloraine Jones, a witness exa-
mined yesterday, has declared, that he will not go
into the barracks unless some of the Jury are along
with him. I heard him say, this morning, that he
should not feel himself safe if he went to the barracks
without the Jury.
The Foreman.—l think it necessary that these things
should go forth to the world at large.
Mr. Brown.—One would think that you wished
your most secret thoughts to be known to the world.
Mr. Blakie.—The world knows that we, as Jury-
men, meant to attend at the barracks this morning,
and people will naturally wish to know how we were
received. I wish it to go forth.
Jonathan Deane (a witness) said, that he had pre-
sented himself at the great door of the barracks, but
was refused admittance. He was directed by the
Foreman to proceed to the small, or Officers gate.
A Juror suggested the propriety of summoning
the Adjutant of the Regiment, who ought to be pro-
duced, with the muster-roll of the detachment which
was on duty on Tuesday, August 14.
A Juror.—What can we examine him to?
Mr. Sheriff WAITHSIANYOU may summon him
before you as an Inquest sitting on the body of the
deceased, and he is bound to attend with the muster-
roll of those soldiers who were present in Oxford-
street on Tuesday. You may, when he is before you,
lesake what remarks you please with respect to the
conduct which has been pursued towards you at
the barracks.
The Foreman.—l think there is no doubt but that
we have a right to call the Adjutant before us. We,
ought, therefore, to send a summons to him im-
mediately.
The CORONER.—There is some difficulty attached
to such a proceeding. The Regiment are now under
inspection, and the Adjutant is of course with them.
Mr. Sheriff WArreisinte.—But they refuse your in-
spection, and they knock your Jurors down.
The CORONEIL-4 have not heard that : I hope no
person was knocked down.
Mr. Blakie.—l was struck severely, and I should
have fallen but for the person behind me. The blow
would have been more violent if I had not iu some
degree warded it.
Mr. Sheriff WArritstAv.—They refuse admission
to your witnesses. There is an evident obstruction.
The witness Deane.-1 do object to go into the
yard, unless accompanied by some Gentlemen to
protect the witnesses. Some advantage may be

taken of us when we are there. I protest against
going by myself.
The Col:mum—Then I think your conduct is not
quite correct. You ought to go to the Barracks tem-
perately and quietly, without lending yoimelf to
any party, and without pointing out the way in which
you wish to proceed there. There are b My,istrates
• -
in the Barracks ; for 1 have just received a letter
from Mr. Birnie, requesting my presence.
Mr. WAITHNIANTIIis is a gross violation of jus-
tice. Another witness, I learn, has been refused ad-
mittance. Many of the witnesses come from an im-
mense distance. Some from Stepney, some from
Lambeth. We cannot expect to keep them together
during the whole day. We could hardly induce
them to remain yesterday. Here is a witness (Sa-
muel Green) who has been refused admittance, and
his ticket has been taken from him.
Mr. Brown.—lt appears that we are considered
very fit objects to be laughed at.
Mr. WAITIINIAN.—We have all a right to coin-
plain. The country has a right to complain, the
Jury have a right to complain, and I, as an indivi-
dual, have a right to complain.
Jonathan Deane (a witness who had been sworn
and examined).—I went over to the Barracks, ac-
companied by Francis M‘Gowran, another witness,
and the Coroner. The Coroner was admitted ; but
the soldiers turned us out rudely, and shut my foot
in the gate. Mr. Birnie is in the Barracks. The
witnesses all wish for justice, but we cannot be ex-
pected to bear insults every day.
The CORONER now left the Court for the purpose
of proceeding to the Barracks. On his return, he
said, " Gentlemen, I have seen the Magistrates at
the Barracks ; and they say, that according to their
directions, the witnesses shall be admitted, but that
they considered none to be witnesses except those
persons who have been sworn and examined. They
do not think it right to admit persons who have not
been sworn and examined, because they do not know
to what extent it may he carried. Their instruction
is, that the witnesses who have been sworn, and who
think they can identify the man, may be admitted."
The Foreman.—The answer to that declaration is,
that Francis M'Gowran and Jonathan Deane went
with you to procure admission, and were turned out.
They produced their cards, and stated that they were
-witnesses who had been examined, but the door was
!.shut in their faces.
A Juror.—The determination stated by the Co-
toner has been come to since.
The Foreman.—That matters nothing. The Offi-
cers and Magistrates had the same instructions yes-
terday, under the letter which was received from the
Secretary of State's Office, as to the admission of the
witnesses, which they now adopted. Why, then, Mr.
Coroner, should they give you the trouble to go over
for the purpose of explaining that which was clear
before? I cannot conceive the meaning of it.
The CORONER.—My idea originally was, that the
witnesses examined were the persons to be admitted;
and that I should issue tickets for those individuals
only. This was objected to by a Gentleman present,
who suggested, that those who were not examined,
as well as those who were examined, should be ad-
mitted ; and I was called on to issue a certain num-
ber of tickets accordingly, which I did.
The Foreman.—Then the proper course would
have been, to have ascertained from those two per-
sons, Deane and M,Gowran, whether they had been
examined or not, before they were refused admittance.
But, to shut the door in their faces in this manner, is
against all the rules and principles which had been
laid down by the Secretary of State, as to the inspec-
tion of the soldiers.
The CORONER.—The Magistrates stated that the
best way would be to forward them a list of the
names of the persons examined, and to let those in-
dividuals proceed to the Barracks, accompanied by
some ostensible person.
Mr. Sheriff Warrumart.—This is as great a viola-
tion of justice as ever I knew since I marked the
course of public proceedings in this country.
The CORONER.—We have nothing to do with dis-
cussions of that kind.
Mr. Sheriff Wataltstme.—Sir, I am appealing to
you on a point of public importance. I demanded
from you that tickets should be given to certain per-
sons, after they had been examined on particular
points. Finding, however, that the other Jury had
acted differently, I requested tickets for fourteen or
fifteen individuals, prior to their being sworn; and
as it was stated at the time that they would be ad-
mitted, I hold the refusal to be a gross violation of
justice, and of the solemn engagement entered into
by the Secretary of State, or, at least, by Mr. Hob-
house, as well as an insult to the Jury, and to every
person concerned. In this country, if a demand were
made for a whole Regiment to be drawn up, in the
face of the world, in order that all persons might as-
semble, to identify an evil doer, it has been constantly
complied with. I have seen this done, myself. I
have seen a whole Regiment drawn out to identify a
man who stole a piece of dowlas, " of filthy dowlas."
But in this case, a man is killed, and the Secretary
of State tells you you shall have an inspection, with
a limitation, that is, the witnesses are to be shut in,
and you are to be shut out. We are next told, that
the Magistrates cannot guess to what extent the in-
spection might be carried. Why, is there no confi-
dence to be put in aJury? And if not in a Jury, is
no confidence to be put in a Coroner' Is it to be
supposed that he would forget his oath, and abusa
his office, by admitting persons in an indefinite man-
ner? Such conduct is not to be endured ; and it is
for the Jury to consider how far they can vindicate
their honour and character in the face of the country.
When witnesses are called on to view a large body of
persons drawn up for that purpose, they will natu- -
rally feel some degree of intimidation. Therefore I
think that the muster-roll of the detachment which
was on duty when the man was shot should be pro-
duced before us. This would answer the ends of jus-
tice better, instead of drawing up a great number of
per.wansoless inaappsplyeceiveesnof ditosesgeutise. But w
the
etroops
dnroaw, when
nup,the
they
asmiimmaretattgdanuiinmncegeet.d away, and the Jury are also refused ad-
ml declare,
headlasrte I
a, n
do
irnhgma roydnl know
sb
gr whether
caonuscarcely
imagine rlsctaei
Such
heels.YEg
hoanlt
conduct is better calculated for the meridian of Turkey
or Algiers. I speak warmly; because 1 feel warmly.
Even a delay is a violation of justice; but this is a
downright refusal of redress. It is said that persons
learned in the law should attend here. 1341 hog: can

with
the poor man whose brother has been killed fee soli,
citors or lawyers? The Jury can do nothing to in.
to
demnify him, either with reference to his mind or
his pocket. All lie desires is—for he is not sensate!d
by any vindictive feelings—that the persons and pro
perties of the Public should be protected ; and
that view he makes an appeal to the.laws of his coml.
try. You can, if you please, summon the Adjutant
immediately, and see whether he -.via or will tax
obey your call. A Gentleman appears here for him,
and the summons will be sent through his means.
The Foreman.—\\'e certainly ought to do it.
Mr. Sheriff WA IT II M A N.—There are eight or ten
witnesses in attendance, who may be sworn to the
particular fact of identification, if you choose. If the
Ipersons named in the muster-roll, :is having formed
the detachment called out on Tuesday last, be drawn
tp, I
eecnoogndize doubt that
thiantdsievvi
individual w
l wihtnoefissreesdvt•Fi.l!
momenti ihave
Many persons knew him as he was going into the
barrack-yard, but it appears that the -
Secretary of )
State's order is not obeyed, and those who can lam.
tify him are kept out. A Coroner's Jury I conceive
to be the highest Inquest in the country. Some Ju..
ries meet to investigate the loss of property, but
theirs is an Inquisition respecting life. When a life
is taken away, however humble the individual, and
although he may be without a friend in the world,
still an Inquest must be held on him. The Jury
must return a verdict, and if he has conic to his is
death improperly, or by violence, the fact must he
ascertained, and the oifender brought ' • to justice. I
am sorry to have been obliged to take up so much '
of the time of the Jury. I never spoke to or saw the
deceased. But when I saw the poor woman swoon.
'tug in the arms of her surviving brother, and when,
with tears in their eyes, they stated that they had not
a friend in the world, that they had no means of em.
ploying Counsel, that they knew not even how to
get the witnesses together, I should have considered
myself the most wretched being that ever crawled on
the earth, if, an appeal having been made to me, I
did not take up the cause.
Mr. Brown (a Juror)—Your sentiments, lbellese,
accord with the sentiments held by most of us, and
we arc obliged to you for your exertions.
After some further observations, it was determined
that the witnesses who considered they could identify
the Officer should be called in and sworn to that fact.
The first witness called was
.1. Denver.—Saw an Officer fire and shoot a man
at Cumber land-gate ; thinks he should know the Of-
ficer again if he saw him; witness stood at the censer
of Cumberland-street; saw a man drop, and .7 a
soldier fire ; if I saw him in the same dress I I
should know him again, but I cannot be certs;n. •
The Officer was two or three feet from the drain of •
the street.
Mr. W. Pinkerton, a grocer, lives at Bayswater,
next door to the Black Lion; was on the left hand
side of Cumberland-gate; saw a person file on that
side; did not see any one fall, but saw a body carried
away soon after; it was an Officer who fired: cannot
say if he should now know the Officer, but if he
saw him in the same dress to-day, probably lie might
know him.
J. Curtis lives in the Almonry, Westminster; was
at Cumberland-gate at the time of the Procession, but
saw no person shot, nor did lie see any person fire.
Mr. Dean now returned from the barracks, where
he had been with the two last witnesses, and stated,
that the witnesses were all shut up in a room, and
not permitted to come out.
The CORONER—WeII, we know that.
A Juror—Certainly, and there it appears they will
be kept until the Coroner reports he has no morewit-
nesses to send.
Mr. Sheriff WA ITHMA NT, with mach warmth, oh. ,
jected to this course. The letter of Mr. Ilobliouse
said the soldiers were to be paraded at two o'clock;
now no soldiers were to be seen, and the witnesses
were kept prisoners! It was most shameful.
Foreman—We ought to summon the Commander.
Mr. Sheriff WAlTHNlAN—Certainly. The Jurilase
been insulted; the witnesses have been insulted; and
I am sorry to say, the Coroner seems reluctant to
do his duty.
The CORONER—Sir, how dare you say I am tn.
willing to do my duty? I was never so treated is
the whole course of my life; and I say you do rot
say what is fact.
One of the Jury—Certainly the Coroner has beet
insulted. Such language should not have beenbeld.
The Coroner, like Us, has a difficult task to perform.
Much warmth of discussion followed, and thepro-
ceedings were for a time entirely suspended.
Mr. WAITIINI A N then said, that he had just re-
ceived information that the troops were not than
out; that it was not intended to draw them out at
all that day ; and that the Magistrates were uos sit•
ting in the barracks and examining the witnesses as
they went over, to endeavour to draw a case from
them against themselves.
A Juror—This I suspected. Our Coroner shod!
go over and explain to the Commanding Officer.
The CORONER—I have received a message frog
the Commanding Oficer, requesting to see
The Jurors generally—Let us request our tAlv*
net to go.
One of the Jury—Some of our body should go
with him; say our Foreman.
The Foreman—l will certainly go over if I alpd
sired; the whole proceeding is disgraceful; we pa"
been grossly insulted.
ed Mai*
The proceedings were then adjourned, • 0
_„
and the Coroner and the Foreman proceeded t
barracks. • the ecIP
After being absent about half an hour,
• ies nas •
NER returned, and stated that a list of wanes -
_„ •
been made out, and they would be admitted
eone_s7
one, and allowed to see the regiment. tra
ipe l,
would now be out for one hour, and any (
went in the course of that time, having beetts7
ew
to the fact of proving identity would be admitt
to say, thl
itted adm
Te Foreman said, he felt it necessary
he accompanied the Coroner, and was oltera
the outer court, but no further; there he was
to remain until the Coroner came back.
con,..ct
Mr. Sheriff WaITH NI AN asked if this wasconduct
be drawn 11
to be put up with; the troops were to
en
1_ ja
at two o'clock ; the witnesses and Jury.tre
attendance at that hour. It was now tidv.4,oa"..fori
were now told that the troops vi.ould be
eir on
an hour. This was done to serve t sit
for lie knew that a Court of Inquiryh hade wrin ting
.juij
at the barracks, ccinpeied of lagistrat '"