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London, England, 1820-10-14 00:00:00

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,B ER, 14, 1820.):

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PEIC SEVEN - PEN CX.

104-ITD _ •
•
peal then twelve or fifteen brascia 4-The Witness peielied:
the extremities of the House of L?rels, and said it was as long a
from the Throne to the door.
What were 'you paid for coming here?—Pay I have not
received-, but I made my Calculation aboitt my business, and
the time I should lose; and a Doctoror Advocate, whom Ge-
neral Pino had sent to me, wished me to make thiswriting,.be-
cause my 'family and children would not let me go. At Michael-
mas; the people-at Mitsui change their houses,• when there is
much more: to do in my business, and . I was 'consequently
obliged to .employ.another =Atm atteud my business in the coun.•
try. I could not send my son, because.he attends my business at
home, and pays the men. I could not undertake any. hasinets,
for t did not know how long I should be absent. They told
me I should be absent about twommonthe: Whenever I cannot
take work at this time, I lose a whole year. They agreed to
give inc for my year's loss 2100 francs.
Are your expenses paid ?=Yes. •
What was the name of the Advocate who made this agree-
ment ?—I do not hums his name.. .

• •
! had a right to put questions relative to any part of her Royal
I lighness!a coodort„ without being called. a Public Prosecutor.
The LOAD CHANCELLOR said that- the right was
quite clear,
Lord DARNLFY admitted the riadit ; but in a case of so
complei, an allemalcius; so estraorginkty a character as the pre-
sent, in which their Lordships wine both Judges, Jurors, Le,
giglators, and Pr osecuiori, he thought it was peculiarly their duty
to lean to the side. of the accused :„and he could not omit the
opportunity of remarking, that there were some among their
Lordships whcrappeared to him no; be acting as impartial Judges. '
—(Loud aim of Orlier, .rskr 1). •
Lord DE ll 17 N ST AN V I LLE rose to order. Such personal
altercations tvete most improper.
• Lord DA'RNLEY•explatned, He did not accuse any paitl;
eular individne ; be spoke genendly. He must still say that he
had seen a disposition in the Hoof, contrary to wbut;Jea 'con-
ceived and felt tq be his duty.. ,•••• • •-
Lord REDESDALE observed, that some thin* bad red
•
which might, perhaps, excuse the obseriation of the Noble rd ;
but that certainly. it- was-as applicable to one side of its House
defending
of ifie right
prOper, but
v Atkorney-
t; have an
violation

• - -
The Marquis- of LA NSDOWN admitted the explanation as
far as concerned the Noble Lord and his colleagues, but it
a certainly required the weight of the Noble Lord's character to de-
r fend him from the charge. The necessity of a defence from
such a charge was one of the calamities attendant upon those
proceedings—(Hear, hear, hear). But while the House would
lacquit him of criminality, they were bound to consider the egect
of such' a circumstance as that of which therhad complained,
upon the interests of the Queen. The agents of that Howe had
betrayed the trust that was reposed in them ; and was it at
all fitting. to visinthe consequences upon the Illustrious Lady?
It had been an understanding that the witnesses should be all
forthcoming, amongst other reaatms; for the purpose of giving
satisfactory explanations, upon points of evidence; to the House.
Had not that rule been found most useful in the • case of Ms-
jocchi—(Henr, hear, hear).—What Were the House to think
when they found that so important an evidence as Rastel4
could not be produced before he could hive time and oppor-
tunity to prepare himself to meet a contradiction ? And all
this because the people at Milan stouici not be satisfied with
anything but bis presence to prove that thete was safety in
visiting England ! As if Rastelli was the eertittrat of thesis:
position of the country to treat witnesses with tiness—(4
laugh).—Thc House warbound to do all that pens; ly could be
itit
done to repair the effect of such i emission= the interests of her'
Majesty—(Hear, hear). • • ,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he certainly comd-
dead, the measure extremely ill-jiniged,.if it arose from want
of judgment; he-should grit no bar4her attar/44. but if it pro"
ceeded'frorrt anikhing of si worse character, no-name could be
.too bad for it. " I cannot deny that an atlowance most be'
made-for the absence of the winless, to the Qbeen's cause, end
I consider that those who support the Bill are , bound to bring
him back. I consider that his examination upon i future day
cannot be so beneficial to the cause of the Queen as his exunie,
pation It this moment would be. You are bound then, my
Lords, to make a liberal and Jame' allowanCe. I think, indeed, -
it is is;possibk to repair the injury altogether. But, good Goa I ha,
. ..- to the Quells; as we it as to the Country, do not close these
'proceedings in this stage of them."—The Noble Lord concluded a
speech, which be. delivered with great energy, by calling upon
their Lordships to proceed with the evidence until the witness
should return, and upon his return, to make a large allowance
for the unfortunate circumstance that had Occurred.
• Lord CARNARVON.—" I agree with the Noble Lord,
that the injury is irreparable ; but I must add, and in doing so I
speak the feelings of thousands, the only remedy is.to put an end
to these proceedings--these abominable proceedings—altoge-
ther--(Losul cries eHear; and other evident markt,' a powerful
sensation in the House).—No man who wishes well to justice
can wish otherwise(Hear, hair). The Queen's defence never
can be restored to the position it now holds, and it therefore
becomes us, if we are not determined to outrage all publiq
feeling, all common sense, to disgrace the country- in which
we hold so high a character, and to degrade even our charac-
ters, it becomes us to abandon this detestable Bill. Substantial
justice never can be done in this House upon this subject; and if
we proceed, we shall be subjected to the execration of all
Englishmen, and the contempt of all mankind—(Hear, hear)-,
A system of extensive subornation has been proved—(dfeie cries
Et* No, no").—The witness who is accused of it has disappeared:-
Those who conduct this prosecution are, I say, in fault ; and if
this BM should pass to the other House, it is impossible that it
should be entertained for a single moment, for it would excite
agitations of the most dangerous character, disgrace the prose-
cutors, and overthrow the most glorious of institutions."—He
concluded by moving, " That the House should actiourst to this'
day as months !" . • •
The LORD CHANCELLOR said be never could again
enter that House with peace of mind if he had said that they i•
could not do substantial justice.- On the contrary, he bad said,'
that though they could. not put the Queen in exactly the same
situation Us if Bastelli could now be produced, it might turn out
so far,from being unfavourable to the individual in question, to.
be in the highest degree favourable to the Queen.
Lord lILLENBOROUGH said, it would be fital to her
Majesty's reputation to close proceedings in this stage of them,
- The Earl of CARN4 RVON said he should move, that a
question should be proposed to her Majesty's Counsel, to know
whether they could proceed with the Queen's defence in the
absence of this evidence? • - • , , .
Earl DARNLEY said, it should also be proposed to them,
to say "whether they conceived any injury mould be done to
their Client, If their Lordships stopped the proceedings at this
moment?*
Earl g REY said, that he never felt greater difficulty as to the
course which it would be advisable for the Howe to follow than
at the present moment. Helelt the same warmth of indignation '
es his Noble Friend had expressed at what had happened; fqr,
notwithstanding the explanation of the Noble and Leatned Lord
(the Lord Chancellor), he conceived that, in the situation in
which they were placed, substantial justice could not be done,
as, by the abduction of the witness at this moment, an injury
bad been done to her Majesty's defence which •it was not pouf- '
ble altogether to repair. In 'ltch a situation, sub"eantial justice
could not be done. He should be better satisfied if his Noble
Friend (the Ball of Caraaryon) did not persevere in his motion, -
but, if he did persevere, feeling as he did, that there was pQ post,
aible remedy for the mischief of the act, if he were asked whe-
ther
the proceedings on the Bill ought to be continued, he (Earl
Grey) should be compelled, however reluctantly, to assent to .
that protcfsition for putting an end to it at that moment. In
the first place, as to the evidence which Rastelli might give-_-
there bad been. witnesses examined who directly contradic;e4
what he bad asserted. How very different then, might his tes-
timony be, if he could have been called up without knowing
what, had happened, from what it mint assuredly would be here-
after, when he was made perfectly acquainted with all that had
Taken place that day. His Noble Friend had saki, a little incur-
' reedy, that extensive subornation -of perjury,was proved; but
this he (Earl Grey) would say, that there wan a' Very strong
suspicion that Rastelli was engaged in the trade of subornation, •
The vtimeniat the bar had Ova an acconnt of this. rOCess *cry
natural, and which he and others had suspected to haye taken
place. The witness said that Rastelli had conveyed the promise
to one permit, he; to a third, and so on. He had described
exactly what seemed extremely probable to have happened, and
which aeceented extremely well fbr the depesitions of those'
irritnesaes as to the Admit and Eve, and other separate facts.,
If he, the suborner of those -witnesses could have been pro..
used immediately, that conspiracy might have been detected,
and thus would have 'been .defeated completely, what (if it
existed) was the foulest plot ever raised against the honour or
life of an individual If that could-not be done satisfactoriir
hereafter, he asked, whether they were not placed in a situation
In winch substantial justice could not be done?-(Hear).—Audit
wino one could'leny that they were in such a situation, If his
Noble Friend pressed ids motion, he would necessarily have his
(Earl Grey's) assent. Thus much as Sc what his Noble Friend
proposed; bat, with respect to the fact itself, that Rastelli was
withdrawn, •because his Majesty's Ministers apprehended he
would be called as a witness, there, was no reason to believe.—
The Noble Earl *(Liverpool) had only done himself justice
by saying, that'his charatter and general conduct would protect
him from suspicion of being concerned in the act; but he could
not agree with him In the gentle terms which he applied to it,
ii that it was merely ill-judged." The persons who took upon
themselves to do so, must have known, from their professional
habit~, the necessity of keeping all the witnestes during the exa-
inflations ; but if ellen' there ryas a witness from whose exa-
mination in chief the necessity of keeping him here was ap..
parent, Rastelli was that witness. The Noble Lord (the Earl
of -Liverpool) trusted that his. chasacter protected him. He
gave the Noble Lard all the credit which his high character de-
parted; and 'vehei the pledge was given by the Noble Lord that
all should be done which depended on him to keep the witnesses
is a situation .to bp produced, the House also had given full
credit to that assiwance. But when they found, after the Noble
Lo&d had given that pledge, that there were persbet (lb* w, re
bound to Obey his 'instructions and to attend to its pledges, it
they hid theileifi settee of duty) Mho had acted as' they had done,
what siedStiarsy lohger would be given to any piedge, :Torn. in
direct defiance and contradiction of his promise, thesagent, had
eat out of the einotii a witness so nsatarial?—S Zinn* ,Page.
. .
u

Does he live at Milan?—)es.
Is it Palazzol—No.
Was Vassali present at the time?-=-lle was not.
Have you met Vassali on this business)—tes, at Milan.
Did you, never see him before ?—I never saw him either be-
fore sr since. • •
Where did you see General Pino?—At his house. lam his
head mason. -

. .

Did you see General-Piny on this business before signing'the
agreement ?—I have not seen him on4his business either before
or after. I met Hata coming down the staircase at GI
Pino's house, and he told me that if I chose to go to .V
sho'jld be indemnified for my loss of time.
Was this agreement made with General Pino. Did he agree
to pay you ?-1 never saw General Pow about it.
Who is to pay you the money for which you stipi,dated ?
Vassa'.

the Queen

, • witnesses this new
enquiry. it. prosecutors,... Lordship said he kn,w of none
.but the House of Lords; aid it was one of the monstrous fear
tures attending this case, that their Lordships were prosecutors,
Judges, and Jurors--(ffear,keard..--Thii anomalous proceeding
placed their Lordships in all these characters. If, theg, the term
" public prosecutors" Was found irksome, he could only say—
" Pudet Aga opprobria
Et dici /wham et non pinnate TON."
The Earl of LAUDERDALE .said he spoke. strongly
self, and he allowed others to speak as strongly; but through fl
out his whole life he. had _never done anything but what in Lis
conscience he believed to be right. •
The Earl of DARN LEY explained.
The LORD CHAECELLOR.--Ilave the Coilhsel on either
side any further questions to put to the witness?
Mr. Wituans.—We have, my Lord.
Witness ealled in, and .erimined by Mr. Wittlasits.—He
stated, that the pilasters io the grotto at the Villa d'Este were on
the opposite side to the cornice. • That before the long journey,
witness employed forty or fifty bricklayers, besides helpers ; and
after die long journey, when he had made a contract, he em-
ployed from two to threo.hundred men.—.Esonsitiatiorsioncludsd.
Mr. Brumossass wished to learn from the Attorney-General,
whether Rastelli was accessible'or nut. In short, whether he
was in the country of not; as he wished to call him, and put
some questions to him.
The Arrostizy-Gxsumai said the Learned Gentleman must
first satisfy their Lordships of the necessity of calling him.
Mr. Baouvian.—lf the Learned Attorney-General will in-
form me that liastelli is not in the cOuntry, I need not trouble
their Lordships on the 'object..

When you made this agreement, were other witnesses pre-
sent making, agreements ?—No. Vassali was not present whets I
was making this writing. He has nothing to do with it but to
see I am paid.
Is not Vassati to pay you ?—He is to pay me.
You told us of a bill due to you from the Princess of Wales.
Has that bill been paid ?—Yes, she has paid me that bill..
When was it paid?—l was paid part in. January, part In
March, and the remainder in April, 1819.
• Was the money paid to you after you had the interview withl
Rastelli ? When I spoke to- itastelli; I was not paid the whole,
I had received the part in January only.
How long is it since the last payment was made by her Royal
Highness ?—The end of Aptil or the beginning of May.
In the present year?—No, in 1819.
Will you swear, that besides that agreement for 2,100 francs,
that you have entered into no engagements with other persons to
receive other sums of money ?—I was to receive another sum of
five or six francs a day for my family, but made no writing
• for this.

The LORD CHANCELLOR here found it necessary to
tell the Interpreter, at the suggestion of Mr. Basortausit, that It
was his duty to explain and not to argue.
The witness continued—The agreement was made between
my son and Ratti.

had you, besides .the 2100 francs, any promise for yourself
or your family, or had .you Any expectation?—l contend that
my time will be considered during the period I am here.
Am I to consider that, besides what you have received, Tou
are also to be paid for your time?—The 2100 francs I received
for the loss I may sakain for the time•to come:
What are you to be paid for the.lou of your time daily?—As
they told me that in a month and a half I might return to my
.own-country, I believe I asked a golden Napoleon a day. They
did not offer me this. • •

The Atros:exir-Gaimait said that Rasielll had been sent to
Milan, as a courier, with dispatches. As soul as he had learnt
this fact, and anticipating it might be necessary again to call
him, he (the Attorney-general) had sent another courier to
bring him back, and he believed be might speedily be expected. •
Mr. -llisououax.—ls it possible; that a person who has bees
examined as a witness for the prosecution, has been sent out of
country in the service of the Milan tomftauinn ?
The ArcOaltirr-GINEItAL said, Mt. Brougham bad put quai-
l:ions to the kit witness, which he conceived he had-no-Akin
put, in order to furnish ground for again calling Hanel& ' : •
Mr. BlOUpliast.—My Learned Fri n 4, or, rather those wbe
instruct him, must have seen, that in the course of my cross-
examination of Rasteitivl laid the foundation for his refutation;
and they who defended, and rested o 6 his evidence, should hale
had him ready to be produced whenever he might be called. If
'there was anything in thia prosecution that ought not to have
been done, it was the sending Rastelli out as an agent in, this
Tess,- Milan Commission.
The ArroxsavaGrceeri. gild it became necessary -that the
friends of the witnesses fur the prosecution, at Milan, should be
assured that they were safe ; .and no- person was thought so pro-
per to satisfy them as Rastelli going with letters from the wit.
nest's to their friends. - • -
Mr. Baoucniax did not rise to reply, but to remind their
Lordships-that there was. an-sod to all security against the per-
jury 'or a witness, if he wail to be sent out of the country.
" How," said the Learned Counsel; " can I go on with this
case under such circumstances !"
Lord HOLLAND commenced a very animated speech, by
saying be rose to advocate the cause of justice. The fact which
had just come put at the Bir of that House was most monstrous
(Hear, hear, hear.) When, it the commencement of this case,
it waiconteinplated that perjury might be coininitted by some
of the witnesses, it was asked that there should besocansecurity,
that the same checks and the same penaities would.* enforced as
in ordinary cases. The Learned Lord on the Tregary Bench
then declared, that although Government felt simiedity in cle-
taining foreigners, yet that he would do everything la his power
for the ends of justice. Whet aiSw appeared? Why, that one
of those men, who may have. been bribed to appear at your
' Bar—(losr, hear, hear)—that this man, cross-examined by
the Counsel in a manner that sheaved he intended to impeach
his evidence—ahisman has been tent away-rqlfear,iov, hear)..
.--" 1 ask your Lordships (said the 'Noble Lord), I appeal to the
common sense of- the Country, if you„think that we .or any
men hive that. degree of character as to withstand the odium,,
• Itainelli was an agent, it had been said a corrupt agent, to . the
Milan Commission. This. witness, who has deposed to some
Of the most disgusting faits in this disgusting enquiry, baa been
sent out of the •coontry. We were told that, as far as our •
siltation would permit, everything should be done to pee-
tent any vritoesses being withdrawn from justice and et
this man has been sent away by that Very authority ithich
ought tq hairs isterainiscl him. This probeeding will taint all
your proceedings,. and this branch. of the Leginansre., This
affair lnuit he set right before we proceed any further. Nq
itronger proof of a conspiracy could oust than thil,ntioniirous
fact ; and your Lordships will do well to get :Id of-tie whole
matter at once." •
Lord LIVERPOOL, in the wsi bed ignant inagner,, dig.
claimed MI idea of justifying the conduct complained of, and der
tied ROT man to state any circumstance in his public life which
could give a colour to such a suspicion. With indignation he
repelled the insinuation; contained in the speech of the Noble
Lord (Holland), which gaVe an erroneous, fallacimis, and lama.
oratory view of the conduct of Government—(lfear,from Mani-
kin). • lam ready. (amid Lad L.) to admit that it was the duty
of *lase who are Condnitime. this busloess to ensure the conti-
• nuance of all the witnesses for the Bill in this tountry-untilit
should come to a close ; end that the circurnscaiwe of one of the.
witnesses being sent out of the country pending -the proceed-
ing*, was highly broopiable; but I Must acquit myself Murray cdl-
leagues of ail knowledge of die fact—(Loud &slat of iletn)--
and- I must say, khat the. Attorney and Solicitor-General
were as ignorsuit Of it as we wore--(Hear, heir,. hear /).-rnow
then tan we be charged .with'conspiracy ?" The Noble Lard
then stated that tlii Cause of sending Rastelli out of theictuo-
try was this following :—Bastelli had been employed by the
ICommission as a messenger, and in brjoging witnesses over to this
country. After the adjournnient -of the House,, it pas thought
necessary to have more evidence, and Rastelb was considered
the most proper person to bring them over to this country.
He was therefore employed, but those who employed him
especied him over before therHouse should meet. Thisi lao
' doubt, arose from an erroneous jpdgmeut, but hour an honoor-.1
! able motive; and there existed AO intention to withdraw the
`witness from justice. As 'dots as the fact became' known
_to. the. Attorney-General,. he ihatahtly sent a person onto( .the
coputry to bring Itastelli back Nov, whether Allii.gink,s:
ground for charging Minister! witlicoaspliact,#e wookicktem,
# to the candour of the Howe Us decide—Vittirjoar):
. • , -- ... Ml!'

Although you have not been promised this Napoleon a-day,
do you not expect to receive it?—lf.,they gin it tp ale I shall
not refuse it; but I have not claimed it. . •
Have they not behaved toward% you in suck a manner ai to
make you confident that you will receives it? •
This question was withdrawn without being disputed, in con-
sequence of.a buzz of disapprobation in the House.
Besides w)at you have received, have auy promises been
made to
you, or to any of your family?Nonez
. _

Witness continued.--Ratti is an architect. He is the friend
of my family, and does my business ; and in consideration of the
losses I may sustain by coming over, he promised to teach my
sou his profession. He did so as a kindness to my family. He
must be recompensed for the loss of his time • for every man
must be recompensed for the lois of his time. have made hint
no promise, for he is not a common man, to whom Leis neces-
sary to make a promise. Ile was architect to her Royal High-
ness, and is nbw architect to General Pino:
Are you to receive any other benefits than those you have
mentioned; for coming here ?,-The advantage of sending me
back again—(4 laugh). .
Matti and I went to take a'plau of part of the Viia,d'Este.
Ido not know w'bether he took a plan of Villa Villahi. To the
room where the'Adant and Eve were placed there were two
doors. The diameter of the room was about five yards.
Itc-e.masined by Mr. AV u.ussts. •
I had thirty-four or thirty-five men in my employment when
I came to this country. The English Gentleman of whom I
spoke in talking of coming over to this country was a tall ban,
with red hair. His ;same is Henry: I told the Regllsh'gendeL
man the suns Ratti had fixed. Since I went. into the tampions.-
ment of her Royal Highness I never knew work done in the
room where the statues were.
The Souerroa-Geintaat, asked, whether the Italian word pi-
laster meant column with a base, according to its Rnglists.sit=,
nitication? •
The Marchese Smartt said, it meant a pile to support a roof,
and of any shape except that of a column.
• Examieed by their Lordship".
To Lord ELLEN BOROUG H.—There wag a pilaster intthe
room where the statues were, near the. entrance from the ratio
I had the conversation with astelli respecting tic sum due so
me by the Princess about June, July, or August lait year.
last payment of the money due to me was in March, intik
Several questions, to the same effect, were put by the Nobler
Lord, and answered in the same manner. . • "r•
Did you make immediate application for payment of sum,
due to you by the Princess, after the conversation Vf 4.11 Rastelli;?
—Yea
To Lord ELLENBOROUGH.--.I never mentioned the'
conversation I had had with Rastelli ;. it was not a businessto be
told to any One ; I told it to no .one,
To Lord DELAWARE--I think it was. impossible for
any one to see the startles from the pilaster with the etaimn
before it. The room was round tine, and the statues were
on one side of it.
To Lord GROSVENOR.--I have made po plan of the rooms
since I came to this country. I have it in my °Sin mind. If a
person was to go straight forward in the passage which' led to
the room in which the statues were, he Weald break his neck:—
(Laugh).—lt was not a curved passage, npr whadinga• the walla
were undulated, but Ihepassage was straight.
To Lord DUNSTAN VI L LE.—The 40 francs paid by Ras-
telli to each of the persons from my country were only paid cokes
To. Lord LA UDERDA LE.—Bastelli went to the inn at
Cazzoni ; told the landlord to send for BrUzzi, and when Bruzai
came, Rastelli sent him for the tither persons, one after another.
Had her Royal Highness a 'tiling painted at the Villa d'Eate?
—She had.

How was it painted ?—lt was painted in snug pannels, and
in the middle there were some lowers.
Mr. BLOUGIIAII observed, that a new case was now opening,
and not by his Majesty's Attorney-Qer.eral. Not a word about I
this ceiling had.bein said before. He did not object Co gear
into this new case from •any dread of •the consequences de
her Majesty, but merely in order to point out to their led..
ships the great inconvemsnce to which it would give rile. If
new case,' different from that stated by the AttorneyrCreili
ral were gone into, then most her Majesty's advisers be and
necessity of asking a new delay ,in ado- to mettAt C and II
they were to have to contend with one Public Prosec4ar after
'nether there might be no and to the business. • ,
•prd LAUREItDA7S pootendell warmly thilt erirrret7

• i.• • .14P t

as to the other.. . • • •• • •
Lord HOLLAND protested against this mode of di
the. chiraeterOfthe House. There could be no doubt of it
of their Lordships to rot any qiirstions they thought pro
whew a new die was opened, it should be through the Ai
general; 'so that. the Connsel for her Maiesty.might;
opportunity of:nross-eptida;tng the evidence... Is.was a s
of thaltindegiatailiprtnciplesTio • jusiiCe;thit they should
witnesses hk—tbe *mention eitiklOthey allowed those ri
to be crose.esentined.t. Nay Snore. the Possum' for the
ought to here delay 40. pslpjj their. witnesses also in
,t 1
enquiry. As to prosecutors, his tnrdship said he knew