Star.
London, England, 1828-04-26 00:00:00

myself cleatly understood without doing so. After
what the /Add*. Lord (Holland) has now slated, as to
my afflectidu for the Rules and %dere, and after his
observations. on Lawyers, I will only say, that diem is
not that very great affection for them which he supposts
in my heart on this occasion, though I readily agree to
withdraw my motion. Ido observe, I should also say,
that all politicians think it impossible that a lawyer can
'know any thing of political affairs; and I must say I
'never knew a politician who did not think himself an
excellent lawyer. I am confident that my Noble Friend,
if he will allow me to call him so, is not only a close
student, but a great judge of the law, though I give up
all pretensions- to. being a politician. I shall withdraw
my motion, and'on the thiritreading, if no other person
makes any motion to this effect, relative to the pre-
amble, or the declaration, T will myself move the inser-
tion of the words" I am a Protestant."
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose to move, according to
form, that the Order of the Day should be read.
The Earl of ELDON—If I am again out of order, I
shall feel obliged if my Noble Friend (Earl Grey) will
tell me, We shall not disagree, I dare say, through
any want of temper as to this question. I shall move
that the word is Sweat" be substituted for the word
" Declare." There may be found a great deal of solid
objection both to swearing and declaring. There is, un-
fortunately, too little attention paid both to one and the
other ; but this consideration would lead us beyond the
question, for it would prove that we should use neither,
when it is admitted that we must use cne. I remem-
ber that when I was Chief Justice of the Common
Pleas, a witness was asked why he had sworn falsely
on an affidavit, and his reply was, that it was only
sworn at the Custom House. By an Act passed in 1779,
Dissenting Ministers were excused, on signing a certain
Declaration, from serving in the Militia, as well as the
Clergy of the Establi.hed Church. A friend of mine
wanted a substitute to serve for him in the Militia, and
was inquiring the price at which he could obtain one;
somebody, however, told him that the cheapest mode
would tie to avail himself of this Act of 1779, under
which, on making the declaration, he would have to
pay sixpence, and sixpence more for the certificate, by
which he would be entirely exempted from serving in
the militia. When he went to present the declaration,
he was asked if he could write, as it appeared a man
had that morning presented himself to make this decla-,
ration, as a Dissenting Minister, who could not write
his name. 1 think the Church of England has a right
to expect as solemn a declaration as can be obtained;
and I shall, therefore, now move the substitution of the
word " swear" instead of « declare," in order that I may,
at least, put my opinions on record in the Journals of
.your Lordships' House.
Earl GREY interposed upon the point of order. The
amendment of the Noble and Learned Lord applying
r.- a subsequent part of the Bill, had, as it appeared by
the minutes of their proceedings, been already moved
And debated. With that amendment they were there-
ote bound to proceed.
The Earl of ELDON said, that an error hid crept

into their Journal, but he would not say more upon that
subject. He would at once proceed to his Amendment
upon the Declaration. He proposed to include the
words, " lam a Protestant." These words, he main-
tained, were a necessary substitute to the Cot poration
and Test Acts. He declared that if he thought the
insertion of these words would injure the Roman
Catholics he would not have proposed them; but be
believed that if they were not added, the Roman
Catholics would receive great benefit from the Bill.
His with was, that if the Bill passed, it should have
no effect whatever upon the cause of the Catholics,
either for or against them. He begged the Noble
Lords who were mast strenuous in support of the
Catholic Claims, to recollect, upon all futute occasions,
the views and motives with which he proposed the
amendment. It was from the persuasion that without
it the Bill would greatly promote the object of the Ca-
tholics. The object he had in view related solely to
Corporations. The Corporation Act, as it now stool,
required that the Mayor, the Aldermen, and other cet -
palate officers, should have taken the Sacrament accord-
ing to the forms of the Church of England within one
year before their admission. There was not one ward
about their taking it afterwards. The Test Act, on the
contrary, required that persons accepting office should
take the Sacrament within three months, which, by a
subsequent Act, was extended to six months after-
wards. The oaths which were also required were in-
cluded in the Corporation Act ; but, if this Act was re-
jected, there was no subsequent Act which required
them to take the Declaration against Ti ansubstantiation.
It any one said there was such an Act, he should be
exceedingly glad to learn by what Act of Parliament it
was that a corporate officer, as such, was required to
take the declaration against Transubstantiation. He
said, that a Mayor, as Mayor, an Alderman asAlderman,
or a Bailiff as Bailiff, was not so required, unless either
by the Charter of the Corporation, or by being included
in the Commission of the Crown, they were also Justices
of the Peace. The consequence of this was, that Catholics
might be admitted by the declaration in its present
shape. This was the effect of the Bill. They took away
the test. The declaration against Transubstantiation
did not apply, and there remained therefore no impedi-
ment whatever to the admission of Catholics. if they
were to pass this Act in the idea that it did not affect the
Catholic Question, that it did not promote the claims of
the Catholics, they would fall into a very great error.
• The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that after the
able speech of his Noble and Learned Friend, he must
state, as shortly and distinctly as possible, his opinion
upon the present question. He was glad that the ad-
journment had taken place; for the observations of his
.Noble and Learned Friend had in the first instance
created doubt in his mind whether it might not be ex-
pedient toadopt his Amendment ? but subsequent and
more mature consideration had convinced him that there
WAS nothing,of solidity in those doubts. If he thought
that this Bill could in any manner affect the Catholic
Question, be should most readily concur in the Amend-
ment ; but being convinced, as he 'was, that no such
consequence could arise from it, he felt it his duty to
resist an alteration of the Bill, which could only be a
source of needless and useless irritation.—(Hear, hear).
He would prove that the laws already afforded every
necessary protection to the Established Church. In the
first. place, every governing member of a corporation
was bound to have taken the Test within one year of his
admission to office, and when this security was removed,
there remained the oath of supremacy, which he was
bound to take before he entered upon his office. Laying
aside all vague suspicions and surmises, he would ask it
this oath wag not binding upon Roman Catholics? Hr
ventured to say, that if Noble Lords inquired, they
would find that the Roman Catholics universally hel,.
it to be so. This was sufficient, and here he might rest
his case. Bet he would not rest it here; for as he dif
fered entirely in opinion with his Noble and Learned
Friend, and as he telt he was contending against a real
'superiority of learning, experience, and talent, he must
adduce still further arguments in support of his opi.
nion. The Noble and Learned Lord had inquired