Star.
London, England, 1819-12-17 00:00:00

lIISH ELECTIONS.

Mr. W. WYNN brought in a Bill to amend the
Irish Election Petition Act, 42d Geo. 111. c. 106,
as to re-assembling the Committees on Irish contro-
verted Elections.

The Bill was read a first and second time, ordered
to be committed to-morrow, and to be printed.

BARNSTAPLE.
Mr. C. WYNN brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee appointed to inspect the Journals of the Lords,
and to report their proceedings upon the Bill for
preventing Bribery in the Borough. of Barnstaple.
The Honourable Gentleman then moved, that no
writ should be issued for Barnstaple, until the 15th
of February.

IRISH COURTS: -
Mr. C. GRANT moved an Address to the Prince
Regent, for a copy of the Seventh Report of the
Commission appointed to inquire into the-Fees and
Emoluments of the Officers in •the Temporal and
Ecclesiastical Courts in Ireland.—Agreed to.
MR. OWIPA'S PLAN.

Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY hoped that the same
spirit of conciliation displayed on Tuesday last would
be extended on the present occasion. .He rose under
considerable embarrassment and real indisposition,
and therefore relied on the House to favour him with
their indulgence. He had hoped that some other
Member, more able than himself; would have pro-
posed to investigate the distresses of the Poor, and
the Plan for the amelioration of their condition ;'and
nothing had induced him to come forward, but his
anxiety to benefit the Poor. He should endeavour to
contract the question into the narrowest possible cam-
pass. It was not one of party, but of humanity, and
he trusted both sides of the House would unite in
supporting an inquiry directed to such an object. If
they did so, he should hail such an:ntsion as the har-
binger of better times. No doubt could be enter-
tained, that the increased skid increasing evil of po-
verty throughout the country, demanded the inter-
ference of the Legislature. Poverty was the source
of discontent, the father of revolt. Thousands were
now destitute of work; and almost of food ; whilst,
if the capital of the country were properly directed,
relief might be afforded to all, without injury to any.
The universal cry within the walls of the House was,
something must be done to relieve the distresses of
the Poor. The universal cry beyond the walls of the
House was the same. The higher classes of society
must condescend to investigate the miseries of the
lower classes, or destruction would come, and involve
this once happy country in ruin. The Plan which
-he should propose, was founded on principles sanc-
tioned by long experience, and demanded investiga-
tion. Let it not be said, that the House had for years
been prodigal of an immense expenditure, for the
destruction of mankind, and that rt would not open
its ears to a plan for sating it. Let it not be said,
that it had been lavish of the public means in peace
and in sear, but that, when a plan was submitted for
the amelioration of the condition of the Poor, it
would reject it without scrutiny. Let the House red;
ject it if it pleased ; but let it first produce one equally
good, and he would support it' The circumstances
of the country, and the changes which had taken
place during the last forty years, demanded, nay,
commanded, that a similar change should be effected
in its internal policy. Should such a change be pro-
posed, step by step, or should it occur suddenly, and
possibly through the medium of revolution ? Surely
all must prefer the first mode. Under the present
circumstances, the unemployed poor lived upon, and
consumed, the fruits of the labours of the industrious.
They amalgamated with the regular poor, gave them
their habits, infected them with their vices, and be-
I came the pests and nuisances of society. How were
those evils to be remedied ? Only in one way—by
' prevention. The chief means for attaining such an
object was education; in it lay the principle of all
vices and of all virtues. He had seen the effects of
it in New Lanark, and should never forget to his
dying day, the impression which it made on his
mind. The children were there instructed in those
pinciples which were calculated tb make them use-
ful and excellent members of society. That which
most struck his mind, and which could scarcely be
credited by those Mho had not witnessed it, was, that
the education of infants was begun in this establish-
ment at the early age of two years. He had seen at
New Lanark upwards of one hundred children, on a
large plut of ground, engaged in various kinds of
amusement, each contributing its share to the corn-
fort and advantage of the whole. He saw them

in th •
afterwards at school, some engaged in ear letters,
and others at more adeanced stages of improvement.
From, thence they were instructed in-the reading of
the Bible, and taught the duties which they owed to
Goo, to their parents, and to themselves. When the
hours of amusement and those of instruction were
-ended, he had seen them going to their little labours
with an alacrity which was reilly astonishing. He
trusted the House would allow him to read a few of
the letters whiclihe had received on this subject. The
Honourable Baronet then read the followingietter,
which he said he had received by the post of the 'I
preceding day:--
" SIR WiLitax—llaving deliberately considered Mr. Owen.'
Flan, I am of •opinion, that there is not any proposition yet
made, for the improvement of the morals and general condition
of the Country, worthy of a comparison with it ; and I am in-
duced thus to intrude my sentiments on you, to propose a mea-
sure which may be likely, not only to secure its trial, but its
general adoption. It may perhaps be your intention to shew
the benefits of Yuch a Plan, and to move for a Parliamentary
grant, for the purpose of trying the experiment. However fa-
vourable the general opinion may be, yet in the present feeble
state of the revenue, I am fearful there may be a difficulty in
obtaining the grant; and should not that be the case, yet only
one establishment would, by way of trial, be produced. I how-
ever consider it unnecessary that the Country should wait whilst
another experiment be tried. In addition to the plain reason of
the thing, the experiment has been tried with the greatest suc-
cess at New Lanark. I should, therefore, at once propose a
Bill, which should have the effect of rendering any application
I for a public grant unnecessary, and giving more facility. to an
immediate application of the Plan en a general scale, as follows :

A Bill to enable Parishes, at a General (not a Select) Meet-
ing, to make a Permanent Rate on the Property, and to take up
Money on the security of such Rate, fur the porpose of raising
an Establishment on Mr. Owen's Plan. To enable two, three,
or four small Parishes to unite for that purpose, each Parish to
have an interest in, and to derive a benefit from, the Establish-
ment, in proportion to its amount of Rite or Contribution. The
Rates so m3rtgaged to be applied quarterly in the discharge of
the Interest, and the Reduction of the Principal Money so bor-
rowed, until the same be discharged. To enable Lords of Ma-
nors and Parishioners to sell and convey waste and commonable
Lands for such purpose, -with such other clauses as the wisdom
of litarliament may devise. I see by a little pamphlet which
lately fell in my way, and which I inclose, that .£96,000 are suf-
ficient to found an Estabtlshment for 1,200 persons; and I lately
saw in the Public Prints, that Mr. Owen considered In Estab-
lishment for 1,000 more advantageous than for a greater or less
number, and that would require £BO,OOO, the interest of which
would be £4,000 for the first year, and as much leu every suc-
ceeding year as the principal sum should be reduced. As there
is plenty of unemployed capital in the kingdom, I think the
money would easily be obtained, and it would be much more
creditable to capitalists, and more beneficial to the country, to
lend their money-on such security, than to place it in the Funds
of other nations. In the neighbourhood of Mr. Ricardo there
is plenty of commonable land, and the poor are veil, numerous ;
the measure would therefore be peculiarly benAcial in-that dis-
trict, and although no alarmist, yet I am of opinion that the safety
of prdperty in a great measure depends more on an immediate
attention to the Plan of Mr. Owen than on any coercive measures.
" I remain, with the grestyst vspect, Sir William,
Cirencester, Ike.
1v 4er. y obedient and most humble servant,
Cirencester,
"JOSEPH MOUNTAIN."
The Honourable Baronet observed. on reading this
letter, that it also contained some calculations as to
the time when the sum borrowed might be repaid,
and the manner of repaying it, with which, however,
he did not feel it necessary to trouble the House.'
--The next letter the Honourable Baronet read was
from the Bishop of Chester. His Lordship approved
of a plan which would give to the poor aninterest in
the better cultivation of the land, and stated, that he
had tried the experiment by letting out from seventy
to eighty-acres to poor peasants, at about half an
acre to each. The result was, that the land so given
was well cultivated, even with that time which the
peasant could bestow after his usual daily labour.—
One of the great advantages of this plan was, the
creation of a feeling of independence among the pea-
santry—a feeling which could not be too much cul-
tivated, as it rendered them averse to _any applica-
tion to the poor laws ; and in the instance alluded to,
relief from the poor-rates was not sought by, any of
the peasants so engaged. The Honourable Baronet
then went on to contend, that.if the House, in the
present situation of the country, turned its back upon
any plan which had for its immediate object the re-
lief of the lower classes of the People, they would ex-
cite a general spirit of dissatisfaction and discontent.
He trusted, therefore, the Noble Lord would not
shew himself averse -om this inquiry ; there could
be no mischief in it, for if, upon examination, the
Plan was found to be inefficient, it might be aban-
doned. It might not be acceptable as a whole, but
it should be recollected, that there was no. flower of
the forest from which the industry of the bee did not
extract some honey. He might, if he did not fear
to occupy too much of the time of the House, go on
reading to eternity (A laugh) the 'letters 'Which he
had received from various parts of the country in
favour of this Plan. He, however, should only trou-
ble the House with the reading of one more. (The
Honourable Baronet then read another letter in fa-
vour of the Plan, which described the great advan-
tages that might result from it, by the practice
which it would encourage of spade cultivation). Be-
fore he submitted his motion, he begged to make onE
observation further. At that period when Adam
Smith wrote his treatise on the Wealth of Nations,
the great object was to increase the wealth of the
country. This object had been since achieved by the
increase of machinery, so as almost to increase the
production of some articles much beyond consump-
k don. Now, Mr. Owen's plan, to remedy this—to
render the production of the necessaries of life fully
adequate to the increase of population—would effect
a p-organization, and a re-moralising of the lower,
chases, _which there was no man of virtue who would
not, he was persuaded, be most glad to see. The
-Honourable Baronet concluded by moving—" That
a-Select Committee be appointed to inquire into Mr.
Owen's Plan for ameliorating the. condition of the
Poor, and to report whether any, and what part of
it, might be most available for that object, and also
for considering of the best mode of applying the
Rinds which were raised for the relief of the poor."
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON seconded the'
Motion. In doing so, he did not consider himself
responsible for the success of all the parts of the Plan;
but he wished it should be inquired into, and he be-
lieved that a great part of the country with which
be (Lord Archibald Hamilton) was connected, ex-
pected that such an examination should be gone into.
So far as he saw. the Plan put into practice lly Mr.
Owen himself, he must say,
_that it produced the
most useful effects. Ile was .not prepared' to assert
how far the same Plan, conducted by any. other per-
son would be beneficial: all that he wanted at pre.
sent was inquiry. There were some,prijudices abroad.
against it ; perhaps some eithbna might. be' removed
by investigation in a Committee. He concluded with
expressing his belief that any thing which would

tofthorathttehieifpoorN
i ar;
row,
was
I hold out
Rg aeon
uhe
roGap y
Aopf;
ior relief
sei
edf
I worthy of the attention of the House.
• r.
teniMwr.aßs
would ask them to shut their ears against it;
they did not, it would be to give the sanctir
authority to wild and impracticable plans,
would lower the weight of that authority s
was given to support other and mhi-e eligible
The proposition before them, 'however, was
ferent kind, and had his support; at the same
guarding himself from being supposed to agree
Mr. Owen in his theories. He, on the
differed from him entirely on the subject of
abundance of the population, to which he m;
tributed the distresses of the country. He wa!
that this was a doctrine which exposed a
great odium ; but it was their duty to endure
who believed that their opinion was founded ii
Nothing could exceed the representations whip
been, with perverse malignity and wonderful
vity, propagated by the mischievous part.
to vilify and bring into hatred those oho mai
that the excess of population was a great
evil. They were accused of being enemies to
consolation which the poor might find in the;
tied state—it being forgotten that the marri
,be!
might be the cause of misery as well as of corn!
and that the extent of their argument went to
wisdom of making some provision beforehand
cure the-latter. In perverting this doctrine
that the tainted part of the Press had so -
exerted itself; and it could take no likelier
engender discontent, than by defaming those
had the sense to appreciate, and the manliness
support such principles—so much so, that were
man, in the present humour of the times, to
the only true remedy for the evil, it would
him to such obloquy as would not only be:
ful, hut would destroy his means of ever reain
plan at a future period. Thinking as he did
matter, he must be opposed to Mr. Owen's '
great tendency of which was to increase the
tion. Bbt he perfectly agreed with the "r.
Mover, that there was a great deal of good in
tails, which were consequently worthy of inn
tion; especially that branch which referred to
education of children—not to education so r
but to the earlier training of infants, and
them, when most susceptible of impressions, to
come useful members of society. But he was
'sure that.the best mode of promoting this obj,
by the interference of Government to support
periment out of the national funds. He also
dered, that ifmight be expedient to inquire i,
difference between the spade and the plough n
of agriculture ; but here again, if the former
Messed the advantages which Mr. Owen state
•being more productive and more efficacious, •
.employed more hands at less expense, he was
winced that private funds, rather than those •
Public, ought to encourage it, and would do
What he meant in recommending the system of
cation was-merely the taking children of a r.
and educating them in good habits during the
but neither clothing nor supporting them. By
Means they enabled industrious parents to earn r
when relieved from the care of their offspring ;11
the period of work, and did not break those
ties which were. so bene&cial to both—Wear,
—This was now being tried on a moderate
"Weitminster,-endptoduced most excellent
The Honourable Gentleman-then described an
blishment of .a similar nature in Switzerland,
k the children of gypsies, ace. were taken and enn
-ed, but totallyieparated from their parents.
however, though it answered in a thinly i,
eountry, 'was not suited to a niannfacturing and
piileus district. Mr. sOivinea. Plan therefore •
differed from the Swiss ; he only took the chi
during the day, and ' kift .stlive their filial ha
while by a reflex operation the offspring .
improvers of their own parents, who were .
to get drunk, or indulge in profane swearing, or
,uncleanliness (of which before they thought nothi
in the presence of their families, rendered
tinstruction—(Hear, hear).—This successful e)
went should do More to recommend the sys...
any Parliamentary grant ; and with regard to
'Gentleman whose name was so honoured in t
Establishment, he Must say of him, however he mi
be mistaken in some of his opinions, that a
honest, a more simple-minded, and a more arniah,
man, did not exist upon the earth. Though a r.
'jector, he was most candid, unprejudiced, and .
,ral ; utterly withoirt gall ; you might ridicule or con-
trovert his, hypothesis, call him visionary, or con-
tradict him as „you pleased, he was still good
.moured and placid, and only endeavoured to
mince you that he was right in his means, no one
being able for a moment to doubt that he was disin-
terested and virtuous in his aim, which was directed
solely to' the welfare and benefit of his fellow.crea•
tures. After paying this merited tribute to worth,
,the Learned Gentleman again mentioned the School,
at Brewers'-green, which he described as entire:y
successful, and calculated to form an example of
day schools on this principle to supersede charity
schools, which separated children from parents, and
were maintained at great expense, whereas in the
former, the parents rejoiced to pay tire:r weeol
pennies, for the ease afforded them in merely taking
their children off their hands, while they en-ought
for their and their own-honest support. On the sub
ject of the spade husbandry, so much dwelt upon
in Mr. Owen's Plan, he was not a competent judge.
but as there might be advantages in it, he thought
that another reason for agreeing to the dentine,.
The CHANCELLOR of the ON:CHEW:F.IZ would
give every credit to the Honourable Mover for the
purity of his motives in bringing Mr. Owen's Platt
under the consideration of the House. He was dis-
posed to view it in the kindest manner, and he was
confident that no person at his side of the nixie
looked upon it with any thing like animosity. In-
deed, he believed that all parties, however dal
Aright occasionally differ, had only in view the p;.:L
...
lie good, and that they would all follow tosze.l-
where the way was clearly laid before them. i..F;)n
in theseag
r eep principles,, i
tpoi es.th
the
he
atiwouldoti ofh ha felt
iio ogoittetaath pi
el ell saetro-e
net, if Le could induce himself to admit the pro-
priety of giving the high sanction of the House to
theories which he objected against, not only because
they were visionary and fantastic, but dangerous in
times like the present. lle was anxious to (,io every

he4l:tiPpnlc'orNi'itsga:ats‘linbvaosgbgsnies'sabli.lti°Trlzijeaof;leelfe'evl:swcPefia,tt'
j.i.,..setc, -'Pill.l%;sP°''-reea3r°ntilin‘l'ndelYOtici:ttit3;ll'
was ni ilstic'e
Ecltihreielac 'Os nail: le:dorirueaisefcd,l
tof the so az. he
he mainly ' t
std a m?,
o endure . "15.,
ended in . "17
t
;!arn 'l.)ndc'eerinto
oogssnbel envies
ass,e6aedoiror nrdnifttv 'rtene.fhoitz.cr isasi‘itlocintoelooliigpOus
those
eanstuu' 'e,teoitn alt ahrsti
u. spewti
course
. 1 heard
nbli , 11
e rioirl_iret;
,:,ent.Yiha_riesur
eclig.
tat ''',(ll-i,,
pkttc‘h.lejoiwolsliient to . be
, ~g.igred.
ouse
orehand to 1 /
octrine it •• 'q.'
0
would
. moautal
1:'
realizingl.eir;s esuebs;",
',.l'etin:
,hteneenidsei
dpd
laotini
~,
lt
it
sr
ionetsao
fs
inhtohde:siel
ons
If:pro:oat:a
lompst
iul
ni
.'. :
.i.sodpbstv,pirroo,otthftu,,
se Honou an t
Fsineppaohrot ancc e .nsfoli
re 2
efit
Noire into :. Re
.t u]
e forrer p g 1
ge
4eed
1)1. 'oef umtia'll'ed.::lned.B4doseroys efct
11'
:,.. t
?1:11
system of eila
pul
uring the (la .• ,ce
tle;
to earn mo .
:"spring daria:. , i
. 1
:hose dizesti- t;
-Went., hea nd
derate plan ..• 1
llent effectr
n
:ribed an est.', •'
c 1
trland, wit .- ~q
a and employ fa
:trents. 'This, Id
inly inhabite ,
awing and pa. .1
erefore wisel, ,is
k the children „•0
• filial habits, N
tg became the , ,
were ashamed 1::
rearing, or is .m
tight nothing), ou
!red decent by . •
.12
cessful ea* rn*".
se system than t
reg:emutvhoeraerarrer in e
tlahaearntmomiaitgtl s :
oblete r
o ul
[hough a pm- ,
ced, and lioe-
idicule or con- , 1
(nary, or con- f
still good Fat- 1
Rued to con-
neans, r.o cne ~,
he was disni- .
a was directed ,
is fellow.crea- 1
bute to worth,
led the School
ed as entirely
n example ot
ersede charity
.
ipeient fudge;
it, he thought
rhoticin.
17tr merely
aedfivlal re. y.5114:-t‘i rlctsieole enutk:apgt h:
li
nnoh:ge2t
:QUF.R uvula
Uover for the
. Owen's Plan
He was di=-
re and he was
of the nixie
timosity. la-
however dal
view the pz:1:-
illow tosze:hor
them. )..p:--,11
;feat pleasure
ourable Baro-
!mit the pro-

'jr.:o Owen, though he did not know him per.
,r. Ile was disposed to believe all that he hid
l'of the good effects of the system carried on at
Lanark. He had visited that establishment
years ago, before it was under the controul of
and he then had reason to admire the
,Nn which it was conducted. Since that time
heard much of its improvements, and he was-
3:,posed to credit their existence in. all the ex-
eel In the year 1817, Mr. Owen develcilied
!ails of his Plan before two pUblic ttteetings..
the statement whichthat Gentleman had-Made
thoq: occasions, he would read a few extracts;
;•lie happened to be in error, as to any -partial-
te bad the pleasure to know that he might be
;;,.•J by an llonourable Alderman then in the
who happened to be present at those meet-
At the first meeting, on the 6th of August,
Mr. ()wen's Resoluticm.s.were superseded by
eal concuirence of the Meeting: But he
more particularly to call the attention olthe
to the sentiments of Mr. Owen as contained
speech upon that occasion. Here the. Right
arable Gentleman read several extracts from
lwen's Address, in which he declared that hii
:was to relieve the world from the gross moral
;la which they were involvedthat eery reli-
%Mich had till then prevailed was founded upon;
I am not," said he, 6, of your religion, nor
belong to any religion that was ever yet thouglit
Now, it was not Isis (the Chancellor of the EY
refs) intention to call down persecutions upon,
hvca for his hostility to the-religion which we
all unanimous in upholding. He belieeed.
Gentleman .to be as sincerely attached to the
ire of the world as he professed to be, but.
be said, that the present system of law and
oil was a curse to the country—that under
a system it was impossible we could be
—and that without a complete' change in
ral and political condition, every hope of
..rernent was at an end. When he said all
was it not evident that he intended by his new
to do away with all our institutions at once ?
however visionary and absurd his speculation
be, it would be impossible for theilouse to
ienilutions for an inquiry into such a Plan,
at, in some measure, giving a sanction to those
tctive speculations. But to return to the meet-
-1817 ; it appeared that the Woolly Aldermaa
;tom he had alluded, 'prepared certain Resolu-
in substitution of those of Mr. Owen, which
d to. Those Resolutions stated; that ne
could be eipected from any flanitlhich was
articled upon, or connected witb,• a Reform in
resentation of the People-7(4 laugh).—So
ipon that occasion, as well as upon many others,
;rand remedy for nil evils was Universal, Suf
tad Annual Parliaments. lie should be sorry
thai a formal rejection, by that • House, of
Plan,• should infftlente individuals to re-
ly- practicable part If it.' It
..would be still iii
racer of Mr. Owen to hive
.parts of his Plan
d into effect by private indiestheakesits well as
:blic bodies—the Agritultutid -Wipe- for- his.
N There was one thing, at all- events, -safe..
evident, that Mr. Owen's Plawaleact not met
the general approbation of tire country.- • A
iption was opened for carrying his Plan into
but even in this Mttropolis, the seat of un-
led wealth and liberality, the contributions have
-y inconsiderable. In this absence Of encou
tent, under such circumstances, there liasprima
rridence against. the Plan—(Year; heir),-He
admitted the justice of all that had' been said
ier of Mr. Owen's 'private eharacttitt,hilt be
tt conscientiously content to trhireDriate. any.
the public money, or give a vsity flttr P4rlia-
, sanction towards the effrctint 'bra "lasi
,was founded in an opposition to ail the bitti-
itc of the country. • .
Mt. 30/1N SMYTH sajd,'he had 140; icqttain-
Jsally with Mr. Owen,. for many. years,'and
revel him to be one of the most beheiblent of
Allbeings. He always regretted that. Mr: Owen
dd have taken the view he didon,the subject of
ion. He 'even told that GeothtTean, before he
forward with the deielopement of his Plan,
a declaration of his sentiments open the subject
21i7ion would serve only to unite the whole coon-
against him. But he wished to know, was it be-
a 31r. Owen had formed a different opihion upon
subject of religion, from most other men, that
Plan should be utterly. rtected ? This was
t:nr incident to human kmd; and, upon Mr..
s own principles, it deserved the pity of his
...creatures. The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
tr prom 'tieing an enemy to the Motion on account
to religious objection, waters Minister of the
'!y, to exert himself to . it. Ile had for
years admired Mr. Owen—be never saw so
ht.:lcrolence, so little prejudice and self,inte-
to much devotion to the welfare of his fellow-
as that Gentleman possessed. There was
extraordinary fact connected with Mr. Owen's
'that should weigh. deeply on the House. In his
d:irhment at Lanark, such were the effects of
iyA...rn there, that for fourteen years there was
4 stltt6le instance of an individual belonging to
411:ig been committed .by a Magistrate, on a
i,l any sort—(Hear, hear).-11ea wished to
cir where was the Institution or Association, of
`rare number of individuals, of which a similar
be made?—(Hear, hear).—Was it not
much to say, that the person who had ac-
all these miracles, was not entitled to
inquired into, merely because his opi-
L.,,n1 the subject of religion were peculiar add
Ir"Yer ? Nlr. Owen had had the Merit of bring-
. r ther an association of children of the ages of
re to five years. He (Mr. Smyth). saw these
at New Lanark. Mr. Owen, by the system
:4h lie c.,tablished there, had almost extirpated'
• 1-1...Ae disagreeable passions which every father
';'r were incident to the state of children. No one
tl:e Establishment could see a boy be-
to it, without wishing that he had a son edit-1
the same manner; at least such was his,own
I‘.
~ . ,
nri respect to the resource there was in
that priyate individual;, or the Board
1, '..culture would take up the Plan, in case of
of Parliament to inquireinte it, he can-
d lie did not think that any grist hopes cOOI
.I,teltaived about it. The support otindividtials,
the Board of Agriculture, would carry very
wsit;ht with it. If the. Couunittee were at

• ,
pointed, they it!otdd iati info consicieratiop the 0-
sent state of the pciptilitiOn 'of the country—ilfear,
liter).—Now, he would ask, were Ministers prepared
to bring forward any plan for the ameliorition of
the distresses of the country ? If they were not,
they ought to assent to,the appointment of a Corn-
rnitte. • Something or other must be done, and it
would -be vise of Parliament to consent to an in-
quiry, sad hot wait until they were afraid to refuse it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in explanation, said there was a notice on their books
.Which would bring that matter in a more eligible
form before them, and he should then state his send-
" ents, As for his objection to the motion, the Hon..
Member misunderstood him; it was not on account
of Mr. Owen's religious opinions, hut because his
Plan was founded on the basis of no religion, and
led to the conclusions declared in his speech.
Mr.. RICARDO said he was at war with Mr.
Owen 's speculative Plan, as not founded on sound
principles of political economy. He denied that
Machinery could ever do mischief. It was true that
in particular branches it might produce too much of
a commodity, cotton or cloth for, example, but the
moment that was felt, it would be withdrawn from
that and employed in other ways. But Mr. (wen,
the enemy to machinery, yet wished to introduce a
new machinery of greater power...He would introdute
the human arm. Though lie differed so much from
'this Gentleman, he was for appointing the Commit-
tee, were it only to ascertain if true that spade hes-
Asandry was much more productive than any other.
This was a question of the utmost importance, as
the greatest desi6ratum of the present time was to
supply a demand for labour. He was no friend to
dividing the country into parallelograms, according
to Mr. Ovren's proposition, nor to a community of
-goods. Every man should be independent and work
for himself, in which he was likely to do most, and
:was at the same time equally working for the corn-
Imunity. He expressed his agreement with Mr.
Brougham on the question of population, and argued
that the only remedy for the distress thus occasioned,
was to be found in an increase of capital. Gentle-
men seemed to have a very erroneous notion when
they- called out for employment, merely employment,
for the poor. Employment was nothing, and could
do nothing, unless it was founded on an augmenta-
tion of capital. It was otherwise only exchanging
one evil for another, by withdrawing the funds to
create work from where they were In • operation
giving work. On the subject of our distresses there
were, he thought, some evils for which Government
was not to blame. The great cause might be disco.
vered in the natural state of the country, with a great
capital, a great population, and a limited soil. The
consequence of this was a lowness of profits, and
,wherever the profits were low, the capital would have
a tendency to seek countries where they were higher.
If these 'countries, by a wise_system of Government,
auperadded security to the other inducements, capi-
talists would more readily overcome their repug-
nance to have.their property not under their own
eye. When capital was diminished, the poor neces-
sarily got out of employment, and great distress en-
sued. These were natural causes of distress, which
no man on earth could controul. But had we riot
added artificial causes to these? Did not even'our
Corn Laws, by rendering wages high and profits
consequently low, increase the inclination for capital
to leave the country, while the same laws hurt our
competition with foreigners? The same arguments
applied to our commercial restrictions. The prohi-
bitions on foreign commodities made those things.
I dear which we might otherwise purchase cheap ; and
this was done in retaliation ; but he contended.that
We ought alWays to. be allowed to go to the cheapest
market, as by this means our capital would be im-
proved.. The National Debt—that system of bet.-
rowing at compound interest—and accumulation of
taxes, was another great cause of deterioration. The
taxes were so enormous. that.it became a question
with many, whether they should quit the country
and enjoy the capital they had realized, in another ?
In these various ways, the sources which would give
employment to the population were diminished and
dried up. Last year they had adopted a judicious
course to remedy this evil in part, by agreeing to
return to payment in specie. It was wise not to do so
at once, but to devote two or three years to the change.
They ought to do the same with the Corn Laws, and
return by degrees to a good system, which should
leave us unfettered in our purchases of grain. A
siMilar plan would be beneficial to our commercial
relations ; the more free they were the more advan-
tnirous for the country. If we proceeded as we were
doing now, our errors would be eternal.- As for the
National Debt, he was aware that his opinions might
be thought extravagant upon that subject, but he
would pay it off by one great sacrifice of capital—
Hear, hear).—He would not in that case think that
justice required him to pay at par; the market price
would be fair towards the Stockholder. And with
tcgard to the objection, that the sale of lan& to
meet this demand would be ruinous, it was easily ob-
viated by observing, that the funded proprietor paid
Would have his capital to invest in the purchase of
land or in lending to the farmer or landlord, espe-
cially When Government was no. longer borrowing.
We had not yet come near the bounds and extent of
our natiopal greatness and prosperity. It was only
in comparisou.with other countlies that our distresses
seemed so great., and if we only contrived to coun-
terbilAce the temptations which were held out to
invest capital abroad, we should see very different
tipies from tbe past. He was for going into this
incitliry--(fierir, icor).
-Iga. N. CAL VEAT considered Mr. Owens Plan
a visionary project.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN, though opposed to
ibe Plan generally, thought it proper to send it to a
Committee, whose Report . would either state where
it was pfacticable, or set the question at rest.
Lord ALTIIORP .said .agreed with his Hon.
the Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo),
in all he had stated, as to the causes of the distresses
of the country ; but mto the Corn Laws, though he
never suPported kile,psinciple, he still felt that, in a
period.of war, thcy, would be of advantage in pro-
curing an independent supply of that most necessary
article. With respect to our Commercial Prolii-
biterySistim, though not disposed to a Commercial
Treaty, yet he was convinced, that if this country
took the wine, silks, and other productions of France, !
it must pay for them by the export of its own mann-
fcatures—(fkar, hear).—If spade industry was so be-

fiCial kite:Projuciii4 eftests,_ the attention of the
country would be callicletp,, and a sense of . interest
would bring it into operation 'Mich more effectually
than any Report of a Cerrifnittee of that House. He
could not support the motion for a Committee.
Mr. CALCRAFT expressed himself against the
motion for the Committee. He knew much was ex-
pected by the_ country from Parliament, anti though
he felt that in the removal of that distress much.
could not be effected, yet what could be doneshould
be attempted quickly, but not by an inquiry into the
merits of a Plan which few believed to be practicable.
Sir C. BUItRELL said, that the spade husbandry •
had been already tried. It was impracticable in
many parts of the country; and as to the quantity of
its production, it was impossible that so much corn
could actually stand on the portion of land front
whence such a product was stated to have arisen. He
thought the Corn Laws should be altered, so as to .
make foreign corn bear a revenue, and give a fair
competition to the British farmer.
Mr. WILBERFORCE, in arguing *against the
Plan of Mr. Owen, adverted to the avowal of that
Gentleman in 1817 to found a moral system on the
rejection of Christianity! It warnatural, therefore,
that all those who sincerely believed that no system
of morals could exist unless founded on the basis of
the Gospel, should be opposed to his Plan. He was
ready to admit that all those who visited the Institu-
tion at New Lanark, expressed themselves favour-
ably of the system that prevailed there. At the same
time he felt that it was the duty of the House not to
separate, without at least shewing a disposition to di-
minish the distresses of the People, if they could not
altogether remedy them. At present every thing ap-
peared to be in an unnatural state. When he saw
great wealth on one hand, and great distress on the
other, he could not but be solicitous that scme mode
should, if possible, be devised of bringing them to-
gether ; so as to render them mutually proluctive
and beneficial. He believed, with :in Honourable
Gentleman who had spoken in the course of the de-
bate, that this country had not yet seen its best days;.
recognizing, as it did, the principles of the only true
Religion, and encouraging the diffosionof education,
founded on the soundest rules of moral conduct. The
great States of antiquity, like the human frame, had
each had its infancy, its maturity, and its decay ; be-
cause, professing Religion founded on erroneous and
fraudulent principles, when light broke in upon them
the imposture was discovered, and the country fell
with it. But we had the happiness of 'possessing a
Religion, which the more it was examined the more
it evinced its sacred origin ; a Religion true in its na-
ture, and excellent in its consequences. Resting on
so firm a basis, he was persuaded that this country
would yet rise to an eminence greater than any to
which it had hitherto attained—that it would be her
glory and happiness to be the sure refuge of liberty,
and the unceasing promoter of honour and virtue.
Mr. Alderman WOOD adverted to the various
reports that had been made on the subject of public
works, and especially on that from the Commissioners
of Drainage in Ireland, to shew the want of . capital
to carry them on, and the expediency of legislative
aid for that purpose. Although he objected to many
parts of Mr. Owen's Plan, he thought that the part
which related to the cultivation-of the waste lands
was highly deserving of attention,'especially when it
was considered how large was the annualimportation
by this country of foreign corn. This was the first
motion that had been made for the appointment of
a Committee to consider of the best means of em-
ploying the Poor, and it ought not to be rejected by
the House merely because, they did not altogether
approve of the Plan recommended by Mr..ov..e.n.
If Ministers would express their intention to propose.
any plan themselves on the subject, he was sure the
Honourable Baronet would cheerfully withdraw his
motion. All who had seen the Establishment at New
Lanark, admitted that the course pursued 'by Mr.,
Owen had succeeded there ; and why might not its
benefits be extended ? He was by no means partial
to the whole of that Gentlemari's Plan, but lie con-
ceived that a portion of it might be adopted with
great advantage to the country. •
Mr. MAXWELL expressed his hope that the
House would not refuse to grant the Committee
moved for by the Honourable Baronet.
Mr. W. HARVEY contended, that the Honour-
able Member for Bramber had wholly misrepresented
Mr. Owen's intentions, and his theological views.—
He had read the paper drawn up by the Committee
of Visitors, containing a description of the operations
pursued at New Lanark, and he had never met with
a system of purer morality. While Mr. Owen did
not disguise his own views. of polemical subjects, he
was not so extravagant as to think of introducing
those views into his infant Institution. To state,
therefore, that it was an Infidel Institution, and al-
most an Atheistical College, and that its tendency was
to undermine Christianity, was a gross misrepresen-
tation. For himself, he was never aware that Chris-
tianity was aided by secular support, but, on the
contrary, he always imagined that it was wholly
independent of it. The House were not called
upon to discuss Mr. Owen's polemical or theolo-
gical views. They had before them the. fact, that
a community of above 2500 persons were by that
'Gentleman's system, brought into a state of great
morality, of happiness, at a moment when the whole
of the rest of the country was, comparatively speak-
ing, in the greatest distress. Were they to be blind
to that fact, because one Honourable Member thought
that Mr. Owen wished to undermine Christianity,
and another conceived that,there was some miscalcu-
lation as to the advantage of spade cultivation ?
Unless his Majesty's Ministers would say that they
had some other plan to propose, he thought the
House bound to acquiesce in the Honourable Baro-
net's motion, were it only to shew the People that
they sympathized with- them under-the diversity of
misery which they were suffering.
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY replied. An argument
had been urged against the motion which was scarcely
to be justified. He owned that he felt extremely sore
at that argument ; recollecting, as he did, that in his
life he had never witnessed a purer Religion than that
established at Lanark. On a Sunday it, Fos one of
the most beautiful sights imaginable, to me the inha-
bitants of . that place going to their respective places
of worship. A Right Honourable Gentleman, who
had attacked Mrr Oiven'.s Plan, had' cottpled witkit
Parliarnentiry Reform. Now, he..unrieratoo4),Atat
to Parliamentary Reform it was decidedly hostile.—
Something had also been said about a community of

. 2

• • •1•110, ••• • ^:" • ; •

property', There was no talc g iat, par
Every,man had his little cottage, purchased what he
required, received his profits, and either; deposited
them in his own name in the Savings Banks, or aid
with them what he thought fit. - Undoubtedly,- acts ,
a general combination as that recommended by Mr.
Owen, would, in his tSir W. D Crespigny's), nei- ,
ram, be highly beneficial ; hut that vas not his pre-
sent object. It was evident that something must' be
done for the relief of the poorer classes of the coin-
munity. This was the first time that a propositicin
for considering a particular Plan for that. purpdse
had been snlarnitted to Parliament. He now asked his
Majesty's Ministers, whether'they hadthemselies any •
Plan toprOpose on this important subject? as if so, he
would consent immediately to withdraw hiss Miation.
No answer being returned, the House proceeded
to a division: For the Motion, 16—Againsrit, 141—
'Majority,l2s.
SCOTCH 3IANUFACTIISIyO RISTRIcTS• •
Mr. MAXWELL rose to call thb attention of the
Rouse tb a :Ikea which appeared to him to, be pf
so much inVortance, that he felt he shonkthalie been
guilty of a great neglect of duty had /Wiror brought
it under their consideration. He alluded to the dis-
tress existing in the manufactuting districts of Scot-
land, and more especially in the County of RenfreW.
In that County the manufacturers were reduced to
such a• state as to be utterltineapalahr of self-support.
After describing at considerable length the, nature
and extent of the distress in that County, tier HO-
nourable Member proceeded to obierve, that several
subscriptions had been raised for the purpose of alle-
viating it. These being at length found insufficient,
and all hope being abandoned of being able them-
selves to remedy the evil, a petition was presented to
his Majesty's GovernMent describing the local dis-
tresses, and adverting to the existence of that in-
subordination' Which always accompanied want. It
could not be expected that the County of Renfrew •
should support the numerous strangers who had been
`brought thither for the purpose of •working in the
manufactories, but who were now unemployed._
When he stated, among other considerations, that
the rental of the County was almost entirely swal-
lowed up by this evil, he conceived himself entitled
to call on the Government and the Legislature to af-
ford some aid ; and by so doing, he was persuaded,
not only that they would not in reality trench on the
national funds,but that in quieting tumult and disaffec-
tion, would prevent a material defalcation in the reve-
nue.
The lion. Gentleman proceeded to advert td •
the various causes in which, in his opinion, the exist=
ing distresses had originated. 'Among them was the
sudden check which had been given to that policy',
which had for so long a time determined the labour
of the country towards manufactures. Another cause
of the evil was the dimini'hed circulafion in the shape
of wages, which the reduction of taxation, Consequent
on the return of peace, occasioned. A third cause
was the alarni pervading all the Western parts of
Scotland, inducing many persons to withdraw their
capitals. On these, and various other grounds (which
the Honourable Gentleman detailed at considerable
length) he thought Parliament would be warranted
in making some grant on the subject ; the more espe;i-
-' cially as it was not likely that the necessity for' Le-
gislative interference would recur. But even were
his Motion rejected, he was persuaded that the dis-
cussion of it would not be unattended with advani;
tage. It Was highly desirable that those who wished
to emigrate, but who could not raise the ten pounds
required for that purpose, should be assisted. Others
might have the burdens which they endured dimi-
nished. Persons -who were unable teexist, should
he relieved from taxation altogether—(Hear, hear).—
In making this observation, he alluded more particu-
larly to the Irish population.' It was necessary that
the burden of supporting the poor'should not fall ex-
clusively on the land-owner. This it was which
caused so much disaffection in both countries. Let
the House consider whether, from what they had
heard, they did not suppose that the discontent of
the country did not arise more from want than from
disaffection ?—(hear, hear !).—lt was said that Radi-
cal Reform was what the People wanted. This cry
alarmed hundreds of thousands; but the main cause
of the alarm was the distresses, theivants of the Peo-
ple. The middling orders of society were identified
with those who were the agents of productive labour.
Let the People see that their wants were attended to,
and they would be found quiet and tractable; they
would be found amenable to the Laws, and sup-
,porters of'the Constitution. The Honourable Mem-
ber concluded by moving, that there be laid before
,the House copies of the different Memorials presented
to the Treasury relative to the distresses laboured .
under by the population of the County of Renfrew.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob- •
,served, that his Majesty's Ministers had in all easel:
shewn a readiness. to relieve the distresses of the
country, where their interference could be produc- •
tive of beneficial effects. He was aware, and so was
the House, that much distress was caused by a trap- ,
sition from war to peace; by a change of fashions,
and by several other causes. The Right Honourable
Gentleman, in order to shew the anxiety of Ministers
to relieve the distresses of the country, read the fol-..
lowing letter :

• (COPY.) " Fife House, 14th December, 1119.
" MT Loso--I have had the honour of receiving your Grace's *.
letter. I informed you some days ago of the course of proceed- •
int which bad been adopted in consequence of the application
from the City of Glasgow.
" A Petition has been presented to the House of Commons
from that place, and measures are in progress for tarrying into
effect the prayer of that Petition.
" As soon as the question of security can be
•settled to the sa-
tisfaction of Parliament, Government will have no difficulty in
midst an advance, with a view to immediate relief.
w• Your Grace does not seem to'be aware that the Govern-
ment of this country has no fund at its dispolal for the relief of
the distresses of the Poor; that the People of England provide
for their Poor by local assessments, and that it never could be
expected in reason or justice that they should be idled upon gra-
tuitoudy to provide for the Poor of the other parts of the United
Kingdom (where no assessment exists) in addition to their own.
" If the district of Lanark, or any of the other distressed dis-
tricts of Scotland, will apply to Parliament foe leave to assess
themselves, hs aid of their poor, Government will have no oitti-
culty in reckimatending, under the special circumstances of the
case, thatitilvenesa shall be made on the security of such wess-
meats ; or, if any plan can be proposed to Parliament for giving
employment to the poor, by means of local improVemer.v, Go..
'ferment will have the same disposition to forward the object
by terr.peraiy advances, where reasonable security can be given
for ultimatk-repayment..- • • • •
• • " With respect to easignithsttlyour Grace lealreadyacquointed
• +with- my sentiments. The object, important as it is in itself,
can from its nature only admit of gradual accomplishment, and
to attempt a too extensive and hasty execution of such a plan

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