Star.
London, England, 1811-03-08 00:00:00

..

6f that nature. The Itighl
had stated that the inquiry
.nowsta&ed whether any o.
it was in the contemplation
ward a plan. At the
Right Hon. Gentleman,
involved great difficulties.
but a Committee, nothing
wards of ten months, tho'_ much ;A.
mised. It was the duty of this House to great 5... _ Kingdom—the:
inquiry, and not to wait for any result of proceedings would have great weight upon the minds of the pen.,
iin another place. This House was the proper channel ple of Ireland: Reoleitildlnere thought [flit in tom-
for investigating public grievances, and they most not mon prudence, he had almost said, in common justice,l
be stopped because a Committee in another place were they were bound to adopt
!this course, in order, that
cluing about them. while they fonod it necessary to awake the rigour of •
1 The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER. the law, they might give the people every assurance
mid, that he thought the most expedient course was, i of the good intentions of the Government. He wish-
es the delay complained of consisted chiefly in the ; ed to be informed also, whether his Majesty's Law.
appellant jurisdiction of the House of Lords, the re- , Officers were consulted, and whether the letter had
medy should originate with them. 1 the sanction of their authority ? In this letter was
;
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL stated, with re- contained directions to the Sheriffs to order all the
gard to the proceedings in the Courts of Law, that , Magistrates throughout Ireland to act according to,
there was not the slightest occasion for any alteration ' its instructions. If the necessity were so cogent its to
there. The business of each term was concluded in ' prevent even the delay which would be required ne,
the term, and that.of every sitting was concluded be- , advise with the Lord Lieutenant and the Council,
fore the commencement of the next term. la very few moments would have been sufficient to
Mr TAYLOR agreed to the Amendment of his consult those who were itt ,thOlidltit of advising
, Hon. Friend, but complained that the arguments of the Crown in law cases, did thititiglit Honourable
another Hon. Friend of his were ratherdirected against Gentleman avail himself of that. ,a he letter warned
a book which he did not write, than against any thing the Sheriffs that an unlawful assembly was sitting in
he had said. He quoted some additional cases of delay, Dublin calling itself the Catholic Committee ; he
and disclaimed any intention to cast the slightest re- I would wish to know why the Right Hon. Gentleman
flection upon his Noble Friend who was placed at the called the Catholic Committee an unlawful assembly,
head of the Court of Chancery. 1 by whose advice, or upon what information, he felt
After a few words from Sir Joust NEWPORT and ' himself justified in so doing ? if it was an unlawful
Mr. WILBERFORCE, lassembly, why did he suffer it, to exist so long, and
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER I exist in the very seat of Government ? Did he think
said, it was his intention, if the motion of Adjourn- it was not unlawful until he had published his letter ?
meet were negatived, to move the previous question. 'or did he, knowing it to be unlawful, think it right to
The House then divided, when there appeared—' connive at it ? Why then did he alter his conduct t
For the Motion 47—Against it 87—Majority against The letter proceeded to direct that Magistrates should
the Amendment 40. cause to be arrested and committed to prison all peso
The previous question was then carried. sons guilty, or having been guilty, so that it referred
num CATHOLIC COMMITTER. to time past, as well as to time future. Why thee,
Mr. PONSONBY said, that in rising to make the he would again ask, if this retrospective caution vierel
Motion which he should have the honour to submit to necessary was the Committee permitted to act so
I
the House, he felt great satisfaction at seeing the long ? All its acts were notorious, they were all well
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wellesley Pole) I known to Government as its own, or as the com-
in his'plate, whose letter, now lying on the table by , monest transaction that passed before 'the public eye,
order of the House, was the cause oldie motion with I yet no notice was taken of it before, and it, was per-
which he should cohclade. Whether he (Mr. Pon- , mitted to conduct itself in a manner which was after-
!
sonby) succeeded in his proposition or not, one good ' wards regarded with so much terror and abliorrence
effect he was convinced would' result from the deci- ; The letter ordered further, that they should be ar-
Ision of it, the Right Hon. Gentleman would feel rested and committed to prison, unless bail were given
I himself called upon. to state the motives by which thel—thit the first act of Government should be to order
Government of Ireland *is actuated in issuing the . all Magistrates to proceed against the people. Was
letter directed to thedotiri Magistracy of Ireland, and ' there any lenity in this proceeding ? was there any
icommanding them 'to arrest under certain propositions view to the interests of the country, to policy, or to
three.fourths of the, entire population. He was anxi- ' humanity ? Was this the kind of warning people ,
• ous to hear what the facts were which could induce 'should expect from a mild and beneficent Govern- '
i
Government to adopt such a proceedint, for he must tnent ? Besides, the Committee had done no act
suppose that at the moment (if the promulgation of ;from the Ist of January, the date of Mr. Hay's tit--;
this letter, some danger, unknown to Parliament at ' cular letter, up to the 12th of February. The Right '
preoent, must have been apprehended, or an assembly I Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the
Ex-
known to have been in existence two years, and up. chequer) had said there was no other cause foe the
wards before, would not have been stigmatised as an proceedings taken in Ireland, than Mr. Hay's letter ;
: unlawful assembly. He had a newspaper in his handibut ;he was glad the Right Honourable Gentle-
of great circulation in Ireland, from which he should i man mostokaply interested was now present, that he
read some extracts, that the House might see he did , might answer for himself. 'rhe order to commit those
not come forward,with statements of his own, nor call ; persons unless bail were given, professed to be found-
for their interposition on ithaginary grounds. [Here !edon a clause in the Convention Act, which clause
he read an extract dated Jan. 10, 1811, which con-lhe would now read to the House. [Here he read
, tamed an account 'of the proceedings of the Cathblic the clause, which. stated, That every person proved
Committee on that day. It stated, 'that the Com- guilty of such acts, in due course of law, should be
I mittee had agreed to address the Prince of Wales,thiA' considered guilty of a high misdemeanour.] It wits,
the Secretary had read several answers from thediffer-' remarkable that the offence described in this Act was
ent counties to the circular letter addressed to them, against persons meeting to elect, and that it required
and that they had expressed their satisfaction at the ap. proof in the due course of law ; but the offence de-
',ointment of Lordßoss, who was elected by the county scribed in the letter did:not amount to a breach of the.
of Kerry asoneofthemanagersofthe Petition.] Thisdo- peace. The rule in law, he believed, was, that un-
bument, he said, was circulated as publicly as any Act less-the act amounted to a breach of the peace, the
was ever circulated in Great Britain, and was known Magistrate, who was a Statute Officer, could not de-
four and twenty days before the publication of the mand bail for treason, felony, and a breach of the
letter against which his motionwas directed. That I peace; he could arrest: but for an act merely tendiagt . ,
letter was in reality, of great importance, it was an to a breach of the peace he could not. What wasilue
attempt to silence those who had formerly been al- reason that in our law truth was a justification 'for a
lowed the privilege of complaining—a privilege which libel, but not in an indictment, because it tended; ata
it was not usual to deny to the unfortunate ; and breach of the peace ; yet the Magistrate had no au-
to take away the right of petitioning the Crown, a thority to arrest for it until the indictment was found?
right which Government was not in the habit of Even in cases of conspiracy and perjury, the same
prohibiting to the people of these countries. But, rule was applicable • and he believed he might take
supposing that the Catholic Committee was an un- it for a legal truth, ;hat, for an act only tending to a
lawful acsemhly, why was it permitted to exist so breach of the peace, no man would be committed in
long ? The paper from which he had read was print- the first instance. But whether he was right in this
ed in the very city in which (the Lord Lieutenant or not, he apprehended that the Magistrates could
lived ; why did net that call the attention of the Go- not commit any one upon the authority of the circu-
vernment to their proceedings, if, indeed, it was so lay letter. The words of the letter were o attending,
necessary to the well-being of the country that they voting, or acting, or having,attended,voted, or acted;"
should be checked in their designs ? At this time, but the words of the Act itself were much more cau-
it would be recollected that the Administration was tistus and equitable : . they were, "if any person
not thought to be permanent. Reports had gone should attend and vote, or by any other means vote
abroad, and were pretty generally believed, that or act," &c. so that it did not, like the letter,
a change was about to take place. But still, if make the bare attendance criminal. The law was
the mischief was so great, as from the measures strict enough, and perhaps needed no addition of se-
resorted to, it must appear they were considered, verity. But there were other circumstances connect-
he could scarcely suspect the Administration of ied with the transaction as extraordinary as this.—
such selfish conduct as to resolve upon leaving the When, for the purpose of enforcing the law, the
mischief behind them, as a legacy to their sasses- RightHonourable Gentleman sent two Police-Officers
sors. These proceeengs went on until the twelfth to disperse the Committee, the officers demanded who
I, of February, when, after the Prince of Wales was they were, and being answered that they were not the
appointed Regent, and restricted in such a man- Catholic Committee, went away perfectly satisfied.—
ner by the Bill, the Letter to the Magistrates was • Whatever aspect the letter itself might bear, the tries.
promulgated for the first time by the Secretary of 1 seltzers he sent were certainly messengers of peace
State for Ireland. The House, no doubt, would ;and harmony.: they had not such terrific notions of
, desire to be informed, Why it was considered ne.l the danger as he had himself, or they would not have
1 cessary to adopt this change of conduct and what , taken their own words for it. After dwelling for
was the alteration in the circumstances of the case, • some time upon the messages between Mr. Pole and
which varied it so essentially as to justify and explain the Catholic Committee, he went into a train of ar-
this seeming contradiction. It could not have pro- I gument for the purpose of shelving that if it were an
1 ceeded tom a wish to involve the Regent in unpo. , unlawful. assembly, it should not have been permitted
pularity, such a design he would not ascribe to them ;1 to sit as it had done since. He wished to know whe-
but it was necessary that the House should be in.. tber Government had found that it was mistaken in
formed upon what motive it did ground, and upon i point of law or fact, whether it had discovered that
what ground it was to be defended. The Act of Par. ! the assembly nas not unlawful and that the intention,
liament referred to in the letter of the Secretary of , was not dangerous ? He did not attribute any intent-
State, though a law of Ireland, was never put in force , tion to the Government of Ireland good or bad, be-
before ; and when it was to be put in force against cause he did not understand it, it was altogether in-
the alledged proceedings of so great a portion of tire comprehensible, and he hoped the Right Hon6nrable
population of that country, Ministers should at least Gentleman would be able to solve the enigma. The
have considered as to the best means of taking such proceeding was one of the greatest moment to Ire-
' a step. According to the Constitution under which he'd and to the kingdom at large. Ireland was al-
we lived, the Crown had the power to enforce such ready, from different causes, sufficiently irritated, and
laws as had lain dormant for any time, but were if he might judge from the newspapers, the measure
'gain become necessary in the revolution of events, of the Right Hon. Gentleman had created the sorest
'1 the usual course was by proclamation by the feeling in the Roman Catholics of Ireland ; a cir-
- in. Conned. The Lori Lieutenant was the re. ennutaace which he was esafideat would slim the


malting some attempt to :pay his
,recapitoLiting his arguments, be um.

Address shout! be presented to h*,
Regent, requesting that he wool! or:! .0
tante copi:• of am prociatrunkns is.oti; by
.4 of Irel.nuf in Council, relat•ve to to the A• 3
assemblies; Elsa c9pies of sasLs on the &one
the Att,ro(:), -and Qicitor Generals of terra +
opinions thereupon; and copies or caftans Of
from the Lord liAttelant."

'Omit that in eirery ofiiew the Honourable'ane
ei.xerMairnnahed
a*tioGeE:a:ll:(lt".eflieneSselifLr'ecelnEAv;:faidittPiclemeltekLitahi'caighThctEhetHwt";o4drisntl.'lve:Yeerrinshth:tin7ttenfitaineniorll4.7e:;
inthearittl,tietaelt
posite, had test been•so f eoeteetedhy theirprueenee
and justice, as to induce them to teft•ain Rini enter.
ing into any discussion en the snbj .etederese the ne-
cessary absence from the • Hottae off that Individual,
from whom alone their rem:eke totted reeeve hi
complete and stisfactner enterer:. The line of
duct which had been adopted •isyethetee Hnotourabli
Gentlemen, and which was directly 'the reverse of
that which was to. have been expected frnm theta,
had been in several respects eetrernely •njerintn; bet
this was a point on which, at the present nutmeat. be
was nor disposed further to dwell. lie was envious
mho' to Me net toeetette 18 the charges preerrei
by the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen mere-Ist the Irish
Government. Those charges he wouli take the
berty of dividing tender two heads : The first was, the
accusation advancedby the Hnnourable Gentleman
against the Irish Goternment, f r not having stewed
the law sooner. The Hon. Gentleman argued, that
if the meeting ender the denomination of the Catholic
Committee was illegal, the Lord Lieutenant was
bound to stop it et an earlier period, and would have
done so, had he entertained a just tense of what was
due to the peace and happiness of the country. He
would not enter inter the question, whether, when the
Catholic Committee was originally constituted, it was
of an illegal description ? bat he would distinctly
state, that the Lord Lieutenant, lookisig at the pro.
ceedings of that Committee from May, 18/e9, felt it
to be his duty to abstain, if possible, from taking any
step which might be perverted into an attempt upea
the part of Government to prevent the Catholics frets
tlrly and freely eomtnenicating their•petitions to Per.
ement, and to the Throne. In reading the account
oldie debates on this tubjeet, whichend taken place
biles absence, he could not, kelp feeling very much
satisfied with many parts of the speech of an Hon.
Friend of his opposite, who had always evinced true
patriotism, and was au oenansent to his 'country and
to that House (Mr. Grattan.) aegreat deal of
what had been said by his Hon. Friend, he cordially
concurred. He felt with him that it was the boun-
den duty of the Irish Government to administer that
Government tenderly and mercifully towards the
Catholics ; to give to the Catholics the full benefit
of the laws ; and by no act of theirs to trench in the
slightest degree on the privileges allowed In the Ca-
tholics by the Leeislatute: However his Honeurabt
friend and himself might differ with respect to the
adeitionel privileges to be granted to the Catholics,
they were agreed that they should be treated by the
Government with the utmost tenderises and kindness.
He trusted that he should be abioto thew that such
had been the caw : and that-the whole tenor of the
he of Richmond's adminittratine in Ireland brad
keen one system of tenderness, of conciliation, ant of
justice. On assuming the government of that e.un-
ety, his Grace had dettaredto the Catholics with that
,manliness which distiogeishedhis character, that al-
though they were.to expect from him no further pri-
vileges than the law allowed, they should 'receive :he
purist justice ; that their rights should ndt be invad-
ed ; that the Aces which were open to them Leonid
be fairly open ; that he would entertain no jeelousies
or partialities ; and that no Protestant desule be en-
-couraged to degrade or hurt their feelings. it was in
the true spirit of this original declaration that t'e
Government Sender the Duke of Richmond, had al-
ways acted. The Huaourabk and Learned Geneo
man had asked why, when the Catholic Committee
was established in 1809, it had not been supprosed
as illegal ? He 'would tell that Honourable Code-
man why. In doing this it wouldbe necessary t,T him
to refer to the discussions which had taken piece in the
Catholic Committee, both of that and the res:nt
period; but his reference should be as cop.:iv: as
possible, for, in Isis defence of the Irish GA? ernti Jen',
he was determined not to be led to rothe ia
House those feelings,. with which all who 10ve,4, 'he
Constitution must he animated, on a coneeteeion
of the principles lately promulgate e in that aeetriey.
In the month of May, 1809, there had been a gm rat
meeting of the Cethoiles, the Earl of Fingel in the
Chair, in which certain resolutions were agreed to,
alearly indicating that the meeting were fully name
of the nature of the Convention Act. The lioncer-
able and Learned Gentleman himself indeed had no:
contended that that act was obsolete, or had bee, me
a dead letter. He repeated that the re fo eutionseened
to at this meeting of honest. loyal, and to Jour Cie J•
I lies, anxious to convey to the foot of the Throne aei
to Parliament, a declaration of what they believed to
be their rights, ended with the resolution to which he
had alluded, which stated their knowledge .of the es-
', isting law, and their wishi not to transgress ; for this
resolution declared, that the persons who were instruc-
iteead totee,preaps arkewtahseipempti:rioantiveeoucl,ndnothemt be ctuenfisindiesrhedthdeeir-
mission the first fortnight after the meeting of Parlia-
ment. For this purpose a Committee was accord-
ingly established, composed of the 36 representatives
of the different parishes in Mnblin, who on a pre-
vious occasion bad formed a similar Committee, with
which Committee he believed the lionoerA'Ac
and
Learned Gentleman, when in office in Ireland, Led
had some communication. He would not absolutel!at
assert it as a fact, but it was strongly meanuredr
at that period the Hon. and Learned I:Wideman sad
the Chief Secretary tot that Government had warned
the Committee against proceeding in such a !nearer
as to draw upon themselves the operation of the Coe
Vetition Act. Be that•as it might, however, the Core
enittee of 1809 was composed of those 36 persons ; eR
the remnants of the two Committees who prepatre.
th
'the Catholic Petitions of 16 v
05 and 1807 ; and leet
Members ache Catholic Convention of 1793 as were
still alive. The Government of Ireland had a tee-,
platets Committee.k no e d ire of
Tahl all tlcilet pteassswedereatytebbeemmeseeti.ebgluts;ai
such a nature as to shelf to every fairend

tight Honourable anti pressatative of Majesty in Ireland. and Itelotts.tnr- propriety of his m
wiry was going on, but had prided Alfa the Lord Lieutenant in Coward did not conduct. After.re
plan was matured, or* hOt#oclamation, and adopt that fair, liberal,.and eluded with movir
aeon of any one to brie for., putttl mode of irifortning and cautioning the
,p,a) That an !amble
same time he admitted to the ple.l.llf that had been done, the people would be in- Highness the Pante
Het
n, laid before the ot
n, that it was a question which tructeds in a manner tilt+ Most soothing, and not by
.the
ol.stordtalLutfteno antec,
ies. If nothing was projected an authority the most impressive. The Lord Lieure-
iing then bad been done for up- neat and the Council, among whom were the Lord Skimlaidbetbie tke
though much had been pro- Chancellor, the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, and tcgether with 'Kir
true
or
certain dispatches
utv of this House to make the several other great Officers of the kingdom—theme
-L- A. Mr. WELLES