Star.
London, England, 1821-06-09 00:00:00

TILE POOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.

' Sir ROBERT WILSON presented a Petition from;
certain Individuals in the County of Lancaster, com-
plaining of the Poor Laws Amendment Bill, as a
measure calculated to deprive the Poor of their
rights, and to oppress them. The Petitioners also
strongly condemned the sentiments and docttines
laid down by Mr. Malthus, as tending to demoralize
the Poor. The gallant General supported the prayer
of the Petitioners.

Mr. BROUGHAM had hoped, after what passed
the other night, his Hon. and gallant Friend would
have refrained from expressing opinions on this sub-
ject likely to excite clamour, which, however pure
his motive might be, could not fail to be injurious to
the Poor themselves. The gallant General had said
so much on the temperate and respectful language of
this Petition, that he was reluctant to say anything
on that subject ; but he must reprobate some of the
arguments used by them, in which they assumed to
be the mortgagees of the land, and that, till they
were provided for, no other person had any claim
upon it. He also reprobated the clamour raised
against Mr. Malthus, as regarded the marriages of
the Poor ; and he must be allowed to say, the present
system of Poor Rates was such as did encourage the
Poor to contract marriages, without considering how
they were afterwards to maintain the children they
might have, trusting to the Poor Rates for support
and assistance, or rather reconciling themselves to the
idea of having their children supported out of the
property of others. He considered this as much a
species of dishonesty as it would be for a person to
go into a shop to purchase goods, not having any
prospect of paying for them. He considered that it
was the duty of the poor man well to consider before
he married how he was to maintain the children he
might have; and Mr. Malthus did no more than
recommend the poor man, for his own sake, to adopt
that course.
Colonel WOOD thought the Hon. Gentleman who
brought forward this Bill had been hardly treated ;
a prejudice had been attempted to be raised against
the measure, which it will be found on consideration
'not to deserve. He was sorry the Hon. Gentleman
had postponed it so long. It now stood for next
1 Thursday, but the Member for Carlisle had a Motion
standing before it for that day—the Repeal of the
Agricultural Horse Tax, and he hoped the Honour-
able Member would give way to this more impor-
tant subject.
Mr. CURWEN declared he could not give way
lon this occasion.

Sir J. GRAHAM hoped his Hon. and Learned
Friend would not fail to press this important measure.
All the correspondence he had had on the subject,
proved to him that the measure was highly approved
out of doors.

Mr. MANSFIELD said, he supposed the Honour-
able Baronet only spoke of his correspondence with
Carlisle, and not of the communications he had re-
ceived from Leeds.

Sir R. HERON thought the country were greatly
obliged to his Hon. Friend for bringing forward this
measure; still, however, he hoped time would be
given for consideration, and that it would noibe now
pressed through during the present Session.
Mr. SCARLETP defended his Bill. He did not
expect to have an unanimous opinion in favour of
it ; but he might say that he had had as extensive a
correspondence on this subject as any individual pre-
sent ; and this he must say, that even in the neigh-
bourhood of Leeds a majority had favoured his Bill
as far as it went ; though his correspondents from
that quarter, as well as others, wished to add some-
thing to it. The Hon. and Learned Member ob-
served, that he was only desirous to do what he
could ; others might add to the measure hereafter.—
One thing he must notice, and that was the difference
between the rates in agricultural and manufacturing
districts. In Lancashire, where the population was
upwards of 830,000, the Poor Rate was £230,000 ;
whilst, in Sussex, where the population was only
1290,000, the rate was £240,000.
Mr. MAXWELL said that, in his country, the law
was now such as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
would make it here. The country was inundated
with numbers of Irish labourers, who depreciated the
price of labour, because they could work cheap, as
they did not set a high value upon the comforts or
conveniences of life. There was one provision which
he would recommend, and that was, that those master
manufacturers who induced men to settle in towns,
should be obliged to give a guarantee that those men
would not, one day or other, become a burthen to,
the parish. He thought it proper to state these facts,
but he did not feel at liberty to vote on this Bill, as
he had no property in this country.
Mr. CALCRAFT said he was a friend to the Poor
Laws, and he did not think the Pools' Rate so great
a grievance as it was generally represented. He there-
fore
looked upon the Learned Gentleman's Bill with
suspicion, as lie was afraid it was calculated to cut
up these laws by the root.
Sir R.WILSON was against the House making any'
further progress in this measure this Session, it being
one of great importance, and one which' 'demanded
the most serious discussion. With regard to the pro-
visions of the Bill,.he would say that, in his opinion;
the•greatest inconveiiience would result from destroy-,
ing the Settlement Laws, and suffering those area-

ing vagrants to remain. By this anomalous legis-
lation the pauper who could not obtain relief from
any parish under the new law, might, on his passage,
make out work in another parish, be taken up and
punished as a vagrant. He hoped the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman would give his attention to that
subject, and that, in addition to taking away the pro-
vision from the poor man, he would not also subject
him to a severe and arbitrary punishment.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought that, for the present, this
subject had better be dropped, for it was not one upon
which a discussion at the present moment would be
either useful or desirable, particularly when so much
other weighty public business stood upon the paper.
Mr. HUME felt indignant that the Right Hon.
Baronet should regret an hour lost from other public
business, when the Poor Laws, a subject of such vital
and primary importance, was under discussion.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY supported the
adjournment of the discussion.
Mr. GURNEY said, that feeling as he did the
most unmixed abhorrence for the Bill of the Honour-
able and Learned Member his voice should be not for
its temporary postponement* but for suppressing it'
altogether. Indeed, it was a measure, in his opinion,
so full of injustice and absurdity, that he thought the
person must have been in a state of unqualified insa-
' nity, who had brought it in.
Mr. SCARLET"' said, that after this discuss:on
there was no danger but that, if the Bill was not at-
tended with publicity, it would at least be v ith singu-
larity, for some Members had taken a course in their
remarks upon it, which, thank GOD, was little known
in Parliament—(Hear).
Mr. MONCK thought the most effectual way of
relieving the poor was by taking off some of the'
taxes, I,articulaily those on the necessaries of life.
Mr. F. PALMER offered to prove that the cages
of the poor were inadequate to their support through-
out the year, at an averaged calculation of employ.
Sir J. SEBRIGIIT contended that the evil last
complained of arose out of the system of the Poor
Laws themselves. The labourer would have enough
to support his family if he only husbanded his means;
but whilst the parish support was in view, like an
heir who had an estate entailed upon him, the
bourer lost all consideration of the future—fllear).

The Petition was then laid upon the table, and or.
dered to be printed.

WAltli AND MEANS.
The CHANCELLO R of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the
Committee of Ways and Means.
Mr. Scrjeant ONSLOW said, he was convinced no
one would suspect him of wishing to postpone or
check the. progress of public business; but his mo-
tion for the .second reading of the Usury Laws Re-
peal Bill. had precedence to-day, and he had so fre-
quently poitponed it, to the inconvenience of many
Gentlemen, that he was bound in honour not to give
way. .He hould therefore move, as an Amendment,
that the Usury Laws Bill be now read a second time.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was ready to
acknowledge the courtesy of the Learned Gentleman,
and was sorry he could not now meet him in the same
spirit ; but the Supply was a question which pressed
on the House, and must be attended to, whilst the
Honourable Gentleman could not expect to pass his
Bill during the present Session.
Mr. DAVENPORT hoped the Bill would be dis-
cussed now, or abandoned for the present Session.
Sir R. HERON was of the same opinion.
Mr. BENNETT thought if the Hon. and Learned
Member now gave way to the Report of the Ways
and Means, he should afterwards be allowed to bring
on his Motion ; as, whether the Miscellaneous Esti-
mates were discussed to-day, on Monday, onWednes-
' day, or on Wednesday fortnight, was of no great im-
portance ; for what with Motions on one day, and
Supplies on the other, not a single day was kft open,
16 eyore midnight, for an individual to bring foi ward a
measure of useful legislation ; and, at midnight, up
jumped the Member for Coventry, or some other
Member, and objected to going into this or that ques-
tion at so late an hour, on the grounds of its import-
ance. Thus, between the white and black hairs, there
was nothing at all left to a poor man.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY denied that '
the inconvenience arose from the conduct of his Ma-
jesty's Government. If the Hon. Gentleman would
prevail on the Hon. Member for Coventry to refrain
from moving the adjournment at twelve, or if he
could induce his Hon. friend, the Member for Aber-
deen, to compress what he had occasion at intervals
to offer to the House into a smaller space---(A laugh)
—there would be time to accommodate every indi-
vidual, as there formerly was.
After a few words from Mr. CatvEnT, Mr. ABER-
CROMBIE, and Mr. Serjeant Otis Low, the latter con-
sented to postpone the further proceedings on his Bill
till next Session.

The Order of the Day for receiving the Report of
the Ways and Means was then read.
Lord A. HAMILTON said, he must call the atten-
tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman to a Bill recently
passed—the Ale and Beer Duty Bill, as pressing most
heavily and unfairly on the Scotch Bieweries.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the Bill in question passed early in the Session, and
there had been abundant time for making any repre-
sentations on the subject.
Mr. MAXWELL said, he had forwarded repre-
sentations to the Board of Excise on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the Board of Excise, no doubt, acted as the Act
directed.

Mr. J. P. GRANT objected to the Board of Excise
being made the interpreters of an Act of Parliament.
Mr. MABERLEY enumerated the expenses of the
last year for the various branches of the public sec."
vice ; and said, there had been an excess on the Mis-
cellaneous Estimates of £362,000 above the estimates
of the Hon. Gentleman. That had arisen from the
Ways and Means having been voted first ; but, for
all that surplus, only 1.81,000 had been carried to
the expense of the current year. But from the surplus
of last year £460,000 should have been carried to the
present year. That should be guarded against in
another year ; and that was to be done by voting the
Supplies before the Estimates of the Budget should
be brought on. On the Taxes there had been a deft•
ciency of £900,000; and there was no chance that
' the tax on tea would; being in £500,000. He hoped
the House would pause, before receiving the Report,
till the matter was cleared up.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,

that there had always been some difference betwee„
the sum calculated and actually realised. Pnrrneri
the disembodied Militia had been provided for eqtcY,f
the Land Tax ; and that not being the case r.,,p,bad
necessarily led to a difference. All the v, es 1.,,d
passed through the Committc:2 (4. Supply, a„d wen
subject to the controul of the House in every st,ze.
01 late years, a much treater apploach to reguhtrity
had taken place than formerly. If the Honourable
Member would turn to the accounts, he would find
that the annual taxes had prnduced last year three
millions. Ile had much lea,(11 to believe that the
statement he had made last Ft iday would be finzd
substantially correct.
Mr. MA BLit LEV said, the difference between el
estimate for the Miscellaneous Services this year ant
the former had been an cam, of 1:370,050 in the
present above the last year, instead of a ,!ituut„tio,
of £52,000, as had been stated by the Chancellor cf
the Exchequer.
Sir J. NEWPORT wished that attention shonldbe
paid to the arrears of public balances, in order to
make them available to the public scrvice.

The Report was then brought up.
Mr. J. P. GRANT said, his "rm.
stated that there had been a surplus of E 370,000%
the Miscellaneous Services; and the Right Holm,
able Gentleman had accounted for the expendittat of
that suns, by its application to pay OF the disembo.
died Militia; but of that the Right lion. Ge:;tlemal
must have been a-Nare, and sliould have siated rt so the
House. These was abundance of s;'ecul.dion, bur
no man could accurately know what was the men
or the din,inution of the Revenue. The Cha.
of the Exchequer had stated, that we were the 'isle
country in Europe that had paid off debt; but he
was of opinion, that, on the whole, a material addi.
tion had been made to the Public De:it—Wear, hall.
The couuu y was now more in debt by seven a illions
than at the close of the war ; all the sesoioces s.f the
country had been exhausted ; and it would be found,
by linking to the year 1792, that where Mi.Pittkert
two men, the present Ministers kept three:
The CIIA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sail,
that the House had not heard, cut the first time, the
assertions of the Hon. Member. Such as lad
been often made, and as often refuted in that Honte.
Unless the I lon.Gentleman would explain how a Ism
bee of extraordinary charges had been defrayed,he bad
no right to maintain that debt had been contracted.
Mr. MA BERLEY said, that though there wail
surplus of three millions on the Sinking Fund, tha
had been created by the new Taxes. Of the ua
funded Debt there was a million less now than had
been its 1816. But that was also to be ascribed to
the £3,200,000 dint had accrued from the new 'faxes.
He trusted that next year there would be a distils-
tion of three or four millions on the Estimates, frost
the reductions that %%mild be made in every brand
of the public sers ice.
On the Vote for the Lottery of 1:160,003,
Mr. HUME objected stiongly to the giant and
thought it ought not to be tolerated by the House.
lie believed it would be of no avail to take the sense
of the House.—The Vote was agreed to; as also the
, other Resolutions.