Star.
London, England, 1821-03-10 00:00:00

ILCHFAXIIR JAIL.

Alderman WOOD hoped the Right Honourable
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would excuse his
calling his attention, and that of the Lords of
the Treasury, to the case of Charles Hill, whose Pe-
tition to the House he held in his band. He had de-
layed presenting that Petition in order to afford the
Honourable Member for Somerset an opportunity to
ascertain if anything contained in the Petition was
false. The Petitioner stated, that he was and had
been a prisoner in the jail of Ilchester for fifteen
years; that from the year 1796 to 1806 the Peti-
tioner had been Collector of Assessed Taxes, at which
date (1806) he was charged with a deficiency of
£617 ; by sale of property and other means he had
made up that' sum, except thirty-four pounds only,
so that that unfortunate man had been confined for
fifteen years for the petty sum of £34 ! (Hear, hear).
About four years ago he (Hill) had petitioned this
House, immediately after which his boxes were
broken open and the contents had never been restored
to him. The Petition complained of a damp cell
and other sufferings and privations. His (Alderman
Wood's) object in presenting the Petition was not to
complain of the jailor, but to entreat the sympathy
of that House for the poor Petitioner, aged 74 years,
who had suffered such long imprisonment for so tri-
fling a sum, whilst great defaulters to the amount of
hundreds of thousands, were allowed to escape with
impunity. The Petitioner complained also of being
locked up from five o'clock in the evening till seven
o'clock next morning. Amongst others confined in
that prison, was a young Quaker Lady—young in-
deed, for she was only 22 years of age. She was con-
fined for debt incurred by joining her brother in se-
curity, and was, nttessarily, attended by the turnkey,
there being no female attendant in the prison. Mr.
Henry Hunt was also confined there, and who, du-
ring the shrievalty of Sir Charles Bampfield had been
treated with great kindness, but he found the con-
trary was the ease at present. However as he (Al-
derman Wood) intended in a few days to call the at-
tention of the House to the state of Ilchester Jail, he
would net press that part of the subject further now.
Mr. CItEEVEY knew nothing of the Petitioner,
Ibut from the Petition, which stated that the poor man
had been confined for fifteen years, for a debt of
£34, and the Petitioner was now at the advanced
age of 74.. If that statement were true, he was worse
treated than his betters. Mr. Geor;e Villiers was in-
debted to Government in a sum of LlOO,OOO, and yet
he rides about in full enjoyment of liberty. Ile did
not mention this to call for persecution of Mr. Vil-
liers, but to express his hope that it would be proved

there was not one law for Ow poor and mother for
the rich—(l-Year, hear).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in this ease the Treasury hid no power to inter-
fere. The case lay entirely between the individual
and the Parish.
Mr. DICKENSON thought the sum was greater
than 1:54. The individual might have formerly been
liberated, had he consented to give up certain pro-
perty. He understood that he acted as an attorney
in the jail, and remained there from his own inclina-
tion. He was ready to meet the Hon. Member in
the Committee he intended to move. He had heard
that the worthy Alderman bad made a Report on
the state of the Jail from a printed book, and that he
had never entered the walls.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE courted inquiry into the
management of the jail, and defended the conduct
of the Magistrates.
Dr. LUSHINGTON said, as Member for 'ldles-
ter, he had been asked to support the Petition. Much
of the Petition was true, but the facts, if examined,
would assume a different face. The Petitioner had
been confined for a much larger sum than had been
stated, and would have been released, had he chosen
to execute a certain deed. That he had at first refused,
but, four years ago, he had expressed a willingness
to do so. The sum at stake between him and the
Parish was £7O. Though the Magistrates were un-
able to do all they wished, much had seen done within
the last fifteen years. The jailor had been found a va-
luable man in the hands of the Magistrates.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN bore testimony to the good
character of the jailor.
Alderman WOOD, in explanation, said he had
only stated the jailor had not shewn indulgence to
the prisoners, and which he was ready to prove, when-
ever a proper occasion offered. Petitioner was an
attorney, and had, for a number of years, managed
the schedules of his fellow-prisoners; but on the Pe-
tition,four years ago, he had been prevented continu-
ing to do so. The on. Member had said, that he
(Alderman Wood) had not gone inside the prison, and
yet had made a report of its state. That the Hon.
Gentleman should charge him with such conduct
was most extraordinary. In fact, he had been asso-
ciated in the inquiry with two other Gentlemen, and
they had spent some hours in the investigation, and
signed the book kept in the jail—(lfter).—He was
sure the Hon. Gentleman must have been misinformed,
or he would not have made such a statement.
Mr. BARING recollected a pilgrimage sent from
the City of London, to inquire into. the state of the
Jails of the Kingdom, composed of two Aldermen, the
Surveyor, and rown Clerk. They made their visita-
tion at Ilchester, and in real City style, ordered a
good dinner, which detained them so long, that they
had not time to inspect the prison—(Loud laughter).
They made their statement of that jail from a printed
book, describing accurately the situation of the stairs,
windows, pump, &c.; but, unfortananely, those things
had been changed two years before—(Loud laughter).
This was the mode in which Deputations from the
City of London made their inspections—(Laugker).
• Mr. DICKENSON said, that since he came into
the House, he heard from another Gentleman that
the Deputation had not entered the prison of Ilches-
ter—(Hear, hear).
Mr. WILMOT wished to ask the Hon. Alderman,
was the Report anade from a printed book, or from
an actual visitation ?
Mr. BERNAL rose to order. He contended it was
improper to ask questions of any Hon. Member after
such Member had made an assertion—(Hear).
Mr. BUXTON had also heard that the worthy Al-
derman and his friends came to the town (Ilchester),
ordered an excellent dinner, sent for the jailor, and
'asked him for his book ; he also spoke in favourable
terms of the jailor.
Mr. Alderman WOOD hoped the House would
bear him in explanation. After he and two brother
Aldermen (Sir. John Perring, then a Member of that
House, and Mr. Birch), with the Surveyor and Town
Clerk, had spent two hours inspecting the jails, was
he to be told that they had sent for the jailor, and
took their Report from him? Was he to be told so
after, he (Alderman Wood) had asserted the contrary?
(Hear, hear).—In reply to the sneer about dinner, he
would only say, they had not dined there at all—
(LOud cheering). Did it make any material difference
if the debt of this unhappy Petitioner were £7O in-
stead of .C. 34 ? For this he had been confined fifteen
years, during part of which time a typhus fever of
such virulence raged within the jail, that the Judges
of Assize refused to try the prisoners. It any obstruc-
tion were thrown in the way of this Petition, whilst
so many great defaulters were at large, he should
follow it up by some motion on a future day. --
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON thought the House ought
to make common cause with the Honourable Alder.
man (Wood), who had spent so many years as an
active and useful Magistrate—(Hear, hear). As to
what had been said of the Honourable Alderman not
having examined the interior of IlchesterJail, he per-
ceived that that statement rested on the authority of
the jailor himself. He knew nothing more of the
case than he had just heard, but could not help feel-
ing that the Honourable Alderman had been Severely
and unjustly attacked. If Petitions, and those who
presented them, were to be thus treated, he feared
that some of the most valuable privileges of the sub-
ject would be endangered.
Mr. BARING said, that as the worthy Alderman
had said he had been within the walls of the prison,
he must suppose he had been misinformed—(Hear,
hear). But the account of the state of the prison re-
ferred to what it had formerly been.
Dr. LUSHINGTON.wished to know if the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer would consent to the release
of the Petitioner ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER must
be guided by an examination of the facts of the case.
COMMITTER OP SUPPLY.
The C HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved'
the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself
into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. CREEVEY must oppose the motion. Nu-
merous Petitions had been presented to that House,
complaining of distress, and yet the only two motions,
those- of the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Maber-
ley) and the Member for Cumberland (Mr. Curwen),
with a view to alleviate that distress, had been nega-
tived by the House.• -There were seventy Members
of that House who had 4.150,000 a-year among them.
There were seventy Distributors of Stamps in Eng-
land and Wales, and %seventy Collectors of the Land

i Tax. all given to the reittionc and dependents c thes.
i Ilouse There were alio many other sources of la-
Sverige in the Customs and the Excise; nor could he
shut his eyes to India, the Colonies, and even the E.h.
limates on the table of the House. He should mot*
as an Amendment, that the House should take ban
-its consideration the cireUmstance of Members of that
House holding offices under the Crown) and thet to
the amount of E 150,000, and should move a Resole.
'tion, that an independent House of Commons was ei
sential to the redress of the grievances of the People.
Lord PALMERSTON thought that the Hon. Ge-
ntleman had made this motion to obstruct the ybole
march and machinery of the Government. Thell'ouse
would consider that the Mutiny Act expired on the
244 h of this month ; and, uolets the number of men
were voted, the Mutiny Bill mutt be Stopped. He
considered this as a record of the Hon: Gentleman't
opinion, which he held eleven years ago, of the
cessity for Parliamentary Reform.
Colonel DAVIES wished to know whether the

Hon. Member intended his motion for a bar to the
granting a supply altogether ?
Mr. CREEVEY said, be should divide the House
on the subject.
Mr. H. G. BENNETT assented to the proposition
of his Hon. F. lend ; he hoped that he would bring
in this motion on every occasion when Supplies were
to be granted.
Mr. CALCItAFT could not assent to this motion;
for, hostile as he was to the present Administration,
he could not consent to clog the wheels of Goveni4
meet, for he knew the Mutiny Bill must be renewed.
Still he could not agree with the Noble Lord oppos
site (Palmerston) that the Mutiny Bill must soon
expire; for he might pass a short Mutiny Bill till the
Ist of May, and then the Mutiny Bill might be rei
newed every Ist of May.
Sir .1. NEWPORT said, he should vote against
this motion, because it would interrupt public business&
Mr. HUSKISSON spoke to the same effect:
Mr. MONCK saw no reason for opposing the mos
tion of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Creevey) espe•
cially in a motion which would tend to relieve the
country from' considerable embarrassments, under
which it laboured at the present moment.

The House then divided—
tor the Motion of Mr. Creevey - 38
Against it . - - - - I't2
Majority -

. -
Lord PALMERSTON then moved that the Hot**

should go into the Committee.
Mr. HUME did not rise to oppose the business of
the House needlessly; but he meant to submit a mo-;
tion that the Military Establishment of the country
was too great; and, therefore, he was induced to re-
commend economy on this the first of the regular
Estimates. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had
said that the Estimates of this year would be a mil-
lion less than last year; but the House would find
that the expenses of the Army and Navy exceeded
those of 1819 by above a million ; and were only less
by £300,000 than those of last year. He said that the
Army Estimates were net fairly stated to the House.
He entered into the usual comparisons between the
Military Establishments in Great Britain, Ireland,
and the Colonies, in 1792, and those of the present
day; the 'result of which was, that we had now
20,000 men more than we had in the year 1792. He
therefore would call upon the House to reduce the
regular troops by 10,900 men ; for he did not wish
that so large an Establishment should be reduced all
at once. This would leave to the Noble Lord a sur-
plus of 10,000 men for the new Colonies and other
purposes. The House_ would be surprised to find
that we had 125,00 Q men in arms, or ready to be
called out in a few hours. He appealed to the Agri-
cultural Members, whether they would not do more
good to the country by reducing the Military Estab-
lishment, and by consequently reducing the taxes,
than by increasing their own rents, which it was in
vain for them to deny as being their object ? If they
did • not do so, they would feel their pockets still
lighter before the year was out—(Hear, hear).—
Fie contended that there was an excessive number of
Household Troops kept up by Ministers for the mere
purposes of parade and shew. It was the duty of the
House to oblige Ministers to look how they could
make these troops become of less expense to the
country. We had got, he would contend, an over.
grown military establishment in America ; and 'a
still greater establishment in the Staff. When they
looked at the £l4OO, £l2OO, £BOO, and £6OO a-year
to clerks in the War-Office, would any man say that
we could continue in that unnatural state of things,
which was occasioned by the War? Taking every
thing into consideration, there would be seven mil-
lions for the Army, exclusive of the Half-pay and
Pension List, when in 1792 it only cost two or three
millions at the utmost. He thought the House had
a right to complain that the Noble Lora had not
proposed a reduction of the number of Regiments
from 92 to 72. He should oppose the expense of the
Staff and other Corps, especially the Ordnance De.
partment. At the same time he believed that the duty
at the Horse Guards, as far as he knew, was much
better done.than that of any other Department under
Government. But it was their duty to stop every
species of extravagance in every branch of the State.
He complained that our Colonies of the Cape of Good
Hope, the Mauritius, and Ceylon, were taxed with.
out their own Representatives having any share in
voting away their own money. The only one of these
Colonies that had received any boon was Ceylot‘
which had received the Trial by Jury—a circum..
stance which had given the greatest satisfaction to
all classes in the Island. If those Colonies received
British laws, they would cheerfully provide for their
own Military Establishments. The House might
perhaps be surprised that pay and clothing for the
Stations abroad amounted to £1,048,000. As he
was credibly informed, almost the whole of these
Colonies supported themselves before they came un-
der our Government ; and this was only altered by
our sending out a set of men to fill sinecure offices.
We had ruined and spoiled everything by giving
away idle and useless places. Until all these branches
of economy and retrenchment were attended to, it
would be impossible for this country to prosper....
The Hon. Member then proceeded to a review of the
expenditure of the Office of Secretary at War. 11
intended nothing personal torthe Noble Lord, who,
he dared to say, was no worse than others ; but it
should be recollected, that is 1796 the whole expense
of the Office of the Secretary was £8260, now it was
upwards of 4:60,000; susd at the COMMCIIMISLK

r

SANK CASK PATMILDITS.

*it war the expensed of the War Office was £BOOO
Orriley, now it was e 54,000. After further observations,
the Honourable Member said, he would not now de-
raid the House, but would refrain going into detail
oil the House went into the Committee. He con-
cluded by moving the following Resolutions: •
t acl.• Resolved, That it appears by the official Returns before
%Ms House, that the total Military listablhhment of Great Bait
tarn and Ireland for 1792 (exclusive of the East'ladies, and of
the Artillery, Militia, and Marines), conidsted of 48,474 nen—
Sanely, 15,919 for Great Britain, Guernsey, &C. 17.323 in the
Cob:aka abroad, and 15,2821 n Ireland; sod that the total Mi.
Bury Establishment of Great Britain and Ireland, for 1821 (ex-
clusive of the East Indies, the Artillery,the Mffitia,and Marines);
consists of 81,106 Officers and men—namely, 27,852 ha Great
Britain, Guernsey, &c. of 32,476 in the Colonies abroad, and of
90.7711 in Ireland.
" 2. That the Supplies for the egoist of the Military Rea:
blishmeot of Great Britain and Ireland ia1.799., were "331,149
—that the Supplies voted for the Military Estabilahmeat of Gnat
Britain and Ireland for 1820, wee .cp,soo,mos—and that the
Away Estimates for 1921, now; sebodned to the House, are
only £163,498 less than thosirof.l4l2o.. •
" 3. That there were in.the sittivlee alt Great Britain and Ire-
land, in 1798 (exchtsiv,e of the 'regular Cavalry end Infantry).
25,757 troops; namely, 3,730 of Royal Art, 4425 of
Royal Marines, and 17,602 of dieembtxlied ]Bridal entl, la
1821 (exclusive of the regain Cavalry and Infaintp), the nen-
ber of 125,492 troops—namely, 7,879 Engineers 'aid Anfltety,
shooo Royal Marines, 61,998 Militia, sad 57,622
Yeomanry Cavalry and Volunteer. Autry; bring in, number a
larger force by 132,367 flied. a le far purposes of the Go.,
vernment, in this year than
" 4. That it is the opinion of this House that. under the pre-
sent circumstances of the country, it is expedient to make a
large reduction in the amount and expenditure of its military
establishments, and to approximate, as soon as possible, to the
establishment of 1792, as recommended by the Virrutoe Cola.
tnittee of 1817."
Sir ROBERT WILSON seconded the motion.—
He strongly condemned the conduct adopted in the
management of our Colonies. He particularly al-
luded to the Cape of Good Hope ;. he was there at
the time we took possession of that Colony, which,
*previous to our taking possession of it, suppcirted it-
self, without being any expense to the Mother Coun-
iry. As soon as we took possession the case was al-
tered, and the Colony became, and had continued
ever siuce, a heavy expense to the country. He was
convinced that an immense saving might be made in
the management of the Colonies. •
The Resolution was puts and negatived, and the
question for the Speaker leaving the Chair adopted.
Mr. HUME had two or three Resolutions to propOse.
The SPEAKER said this could not be done regu-
larly now, as the sense of the House had been taken
on his leaving the Chair.
Mr. HUME had entirely mistaken the course; he
had three Resolutions, and had intended to suffer the
two first to be negatived, intending to take the sense
of the House on the third, and thus get them all en-
tered on the Journals. •

The SPEAKER said, this might be done on the
Report being brought up, but not in the Committee.'
Nothing which passed in the Committee would get
on the Journals.
Mr. TIERNEY submitted the impropriety of
going into the Army Estimates at this late hour. He
was aware that the Mutiny Bill pressed ; but he was
ready to lend his aid to any step which would get
rid of that diffic silty.

Lord PALMERSTON thought the House might
go into the Committee, and take the argument on
the Report.
Mr. J. P. GRANT and Mr. DAVIES opposed going
into the Committee at this late hour.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, on the part of the Public,
must protest against the House going into this im-
portant discussion at so late an hour, and would
therefore move, that the House do now adjourn.
The House was proceeding to divide, when
Lord CASTLEREAGH, although he considered
the House would have come better 'prepared to dis-
cuss this subject on Monday, if they had gone into,
the Committee, and heard the detail to-night ; yet,
at this late hour, well aware of the reluctance which
Gendevaen would have to go into the discussion, he
considered it would be better to adjourn to Monday.
After some further conversation, as to the order of
proceeding, between the SPZAKER, Lord Ctsrt,s-
REAGII, and Mr. M. A. TAYi,oft, the latter withdrew
his motion, and the Committee was axed for Monday.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the
pouponerneor to Monday next of the Bank Cash Payments Act.
Mr. BARING wished the Right Heti Gentleman would
sante a mote distant day; and desired to know whether it was
the Jamul= of the Right honourable Gentleman to bring for-
ward any other motion on the subject?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered,
that his object was to anticipate, by one year, the existing Act,
which required the Bask to resume Cash Payments on the Ist
of May, um. A second object was to increase the circulation
of silver, by extending the legal tender from 40$. to XS. The
motions he should have to submit would be extremely simple
and be did not think that a longer delay than till Monday neat
would be necessary.
Mr. BA RING pressed his objection to so early a day as
Monday. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to hint (Mr.
Baring) to consider the question an unimportant Gee • but be
begged to tell him that he would move an amesdnan, refer-'
ring the consideration of the Imelda not to a Cemenittee of the
whole House, but to a Committee above stairs. The little in-
formation he bled on the subject of forgeries on the Bank was,
as yet, very trilling indeed; he trusted that when the subject
came before the House, that part of it would be fully else!.
dated—(Meer, kw).
After a few words the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER postponed the Committee to Monday se'onight.
The Irish Tromso Bid, brought from the Lords, was read a,
first, and ordered to be read a second time on the SIM inst.
The other Orders were disposed of, and the House adjourned
at Half-past Twelve, to Monday.

Her MAJESTY has, since her return to England,
suffered oppression and insults, so harsh and galling
in their nature, there are few individuals who, under.
like sufferings, must not have experienced their in-
jurious effect in their bodily health. Her lkfaitrrY,
fortunately, is one of those few individuals, and for
this privilege she is indebted to her extraordinary
fortitude and patience, and the strength of her con-
stitution. Her MAJESTY, we repeat, is not in bad
health ; she has not consulted any Physicians, nor
required ally medical advice Whatever since her re-
turn. But whatever the opinions of Physicians might
be, we ale well assured that her MAJESTY has mot the
remotes/ identiou oflearix; Emeind again. ' She has
already experienced that at is in England alone she
can be protected from the persecutions of her ene-
ages, as it is by residing here only she tan hope that
her conduct can be tree from the misinterpretations

of spies and the misrepresentations of suborned tra-
ducers; her MAJESTY, therefore, will not voluntarily
throw away the shield of pliblic opinion in England,
•odes which she has already found protection and.
Sheker."—(British Press.)

THE EVENING STAR.

LONDON.