Star.
London, England, 1821-03-08 00:00:00

•USINESS OP THE HiMSE.

Mr. WYNN brought up the Report of the Select
Committee appointed to consider of the most effec-
tual mode of expediting the introduction of Bills into
that House; and the Committee had agreed to A Re-
solution, that it would be expedient that not rnore
than 20 Orders of the Day should be appointed to
be taken into consideration by the House on any one
day. He said that he meant to lay this Resolution
on the table, and have it printed; and after a short
time, during which the House would have an oppor-
tunixy to take it into consideration; he would move
;last it be placed amongst the Standing Orders of
the House.

PARLIAMSNTARY RIItORIe.
Mr. LAMBTON said, it w;s decidedly his inten+
don to bring an his motion on the subject of Palle-

'minter). Remit on the 10th bf April. is object
would, as last, year, be. the extension of the right of
voting to all househailders
_paying direct taxes, to
abolish all decayed Boroughs, and to restore Trien-
nial Parliaments.
- COMPLAINT AGAINST A LEARNED mum.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he had now to present a
Petition of-the greatest importance to the Public and
to public justice. It was a Petition signed by 1,000
or 1,500 inhabitants of Westminster, and related to
the power assumed by Judge's lately of fining defend-
ants whilst making their defence. This Petition was
couched in most respectful terms; it complained of
no Judges, it alluded to no act done, but merely to
the power assumed by the Court; and therefore he
hoped there would be no difficulty in the Petition
tieing.•received ; it only prayed that the Petition
should be referred to the Committee Of Justice. He
(Mr. Hobhouse) entirely agreed with the Petitioners,
that this House was the most proper place to make
the complaint ; and though it vas no question of the
Privilege of Parliament, it was, in fact, a question
affecting the privileges of the People—filear)—it
was idle to say the law was open to all. Horne
Tooke, when he heard this, well said, " so was the
London Tavern." The Courts of Law were, as Gold-
smith said of the sign—
" Inviting the passing smatter who maid pay?"

lie (Mr. Hobhouse) doubted much whether there was
an appeal from the four Judges of the Court of King's
Bench to the House of Lords, on a point of juris-
diction. Yet the power of fining summarily assemed
by the Learned Judge was a frightful one. Mr.
Harrington, in his Oreana, says, in his Parliament
no lawyer should find a place, because, said he,
" They are a set of men feathered and armed against
the interests of the People." A few examples, per-
haps, would shew that they were at least not infalli-
ble. The great Lord Ellenborough, as he was called,
once said, aye, and gravely too, " that anything Vas
a libel which hurt the feelings of his Majesty s Mi-
nisters !"—(Laitgker.)—The Learned Judge certainly
used the expression ; but perhaps his admirers, not
thinking that so profound an observation suited well
with the character of the Judge, caused the expres-
sion not to be much known.. In the Ring's Bench it
was lately laid down, that writing alone made the
crime of libel. He (Mr. Hobhouse) had once :he for-
tune to be obliged to appeal to the law, and he well
remembered the answer which he received from the
King's Bench. Mr. Justice Best did not hesitate to
say, that a Habeas Corpus was not a writ of right,
but of favour from the Court, and in support of this
assertion he cited a case from Blackstone,
When he (Mr. Ilobhouse) reached home—he would
not say what that home was—(4 laugh)—he referred
to the authority eited by Mr. Justice Best, and he
found that the case was one of three sailors, and that
the person to whom the Habeas Corpus was refused
was a foreigner, and it was for that reason only it
was not granted him—( Hear ).—The !lon. Member
then proceeded to argue in support of this Petition,
that a Judge sitting at Nisi Prins, whatever the Su-
preme Court might have, could not have this power
of cominitting for contempt ; and be cited a variety
of instances of gross insult offered to the Judges; yet
never, until the case of Davison, had any Judge as-
sumed the power of fining for contempt. He parti-
cularly alluded to the cases of Eaton, Carlile, Hone,
and others, in which neither Lord Ellenborough nor
the present Lord Chief Justice had attempted to in-
flict fines for insults. If this doctrine had been
adopted, we might have been deprived of some of
the most powerful and eloquent appeals ever made
by the Bar ; for in many of these the Advocate had
used language; which in these clays, and under this
doctrine, might have been construed into contempt.
He need only to allude to what bad passed between
Lord Erskine and Lord Mansfield, in.a case in which
-the Counsel, then Mr. Erskine, mentioning Lord
Sandwich, was told by Lord Mansfield to refrain, as
Lord Sandwich was not before the Court. Mr. Er-'
skine replied, " True, my Lord, and therefore I wish',
to bring him before it." And on another occasion,
when. Mr. Justice Buller threatened to commit. Mr.l
Erskine, that eminent man said, his Lordship might
commit, but he would not be *vented doing his
duty. He also alluded r,-the cafe of Mr. Hunt, of
The Examiner, lately tried before Chief Justice Ab-
bott. The defence of 11.6. Hunt might be construed
'as aggravation of the offence; and a passionate or
positive Judge might have made it out to be a series
of contempt', and might have inflicted fine after
fine without limit. He (Mr. Hobhouse) had no hesi-
tation in saying that Judges were often made and
promoted from political considerations. When
lawyer distinguished himself at the Bar, and some-
times in that Ilouse, in favour of popular rights,
there was current price for him. What was corn-
moldy called the rat-trap, the Chief Justiceship of
Chester was given to him, and then he defended
everything, right or wrong, done by Ministers. The
Chief Justice of,the King's Bench was often promoted
from the Bench to that place; and could he forget
his creators in the day of his power ?—(Cheers).—ln
any ease between A. apd B. the English Judges were
the best in the world ; but when the Government had
a purpose to effect, commend him only occasionally
to the Judges of England. In cases of great politi-
cal feeling the bias and leaning of Judges to the side
of Government had been so obvious, and so unde-
niable, that no man could pretend ignorance of it.
In such cases the clearest rules of law, and the ut-
most vigilance of the constitutional guardians of li-
berty, to protect the subjects from errors which were
perhaps unavoidable in a Judge, were of no avail—
Quas aut Incuria fudit,
• Aut humans parum cavit natura."

Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW should not follo'w the Ho-
nourable Gentle Man through his wide argument, but
confine himself to that part of the argument which
related to the fining for contempt. The Hon. Mem-
ber
did not deny- the power of Judges to commit for 1
contempt, but only their power of fining. Now, ise
should have thought the fining was the lesser punish-
ment. It was said that was a new case, but he de-
nied it; cases of fine were not new : in the case of
Mr. Stone, tried for High Treason, 'a person was I
fined for improperly expressing his feelings ; and
other simflar instances existed on record. The Learned

Serjeant contended, that it was necessary the Court
should possess this power of fining : they did possess
it ;. and Mr. Justice Best had exercised the power
most properly.
Mr. C. WYNN complained, Au the Hon. Mem-.
ber had, ia bringing forward this Petition, brought

..

•
forward charges alsd against "octet living and dell;
whilst the Judges still living were absent, and not
able to defend themselves ; nor could their firer&
who.were not aware such charges were to be br
0154
for;tard, be prepared to defend them.
The Petition was then brought up and mad. It
expressed the regret of the Petitioners for a f,,,tlet,
decision of the House ; and stated, that, by such av_
duct, the House would lose whatever respect %taiga
felt for it by the People. •

Mr. HOI3HOUSE said, the committal was cm?
sedeate curia to remove a present observation. He
had made no invidious charges against the
and only stated what was on record. St%
Mr: Serjeant ONSLOW explAined.-o"ht (Low
tion that the Petition should lie on the table,
Mr..C. WYNN thought Cie Petition could Ret let
received.
The SPEAKER cited a similar case, iri ‘t-11;()+4
Petition had not been allowed to lie on the (Alt
the House could not allow what had taken I,t4ct
there to be canvassed elsewhere.
Mr. HOLIHOUSE would withdraw the
and introduce an amended one without the ebjecti,,,,
able matter.

Mr. DENNIAN stated, that no former erive
had occurred, of a Petition t espect fully
rejected unread. The former Peution \tits oi:e nr.l
worthy of the attention of the. House. The pr.!...tke
of fining was so novel as to call for inquir; on tit
part of the House. The intimidation of the poi.,
boner might prevent him from doing jittl.ti:e to bit
cause. He lamented that the former Pctitit,r, 1,1
been rejected ; and hoped a new and unoNectica4:e
one wouldbepreented.____

Lord CASTLEREAGH adhered to the rinpritt,
of the decision of the I lothe ola a former nioa: .11!.c
mode in which the Petition had becsa 'nese:Act' was
one cause of its rejection. I.le had not uneerol
that any remedial measure wakto be founded on tt,ll
Petition, else he should not have objected to there.
ception of it. It the Petition should be breaghrbact
' free from objetlion, he shottld not °vase its rem.
tion. Ile only objccte4 to the Petition ciarasiie...
the administration-of the'haw.

Mr. C. WiiNN hoped, that more parts than one.:(
the Petition would beomitted when it 410;4,1 be•AgAil
brought up. In. 17Si, two similar Petitions had be;:a
negatived, ram.
.con..
Mr. SCAR Liciv said, that in the ease of col!.
tempt, the Court above could not rake cognizance ot
the Court below. Parliament W 144 the only tribunal
to which an appeal could lie.
The ATTORNEY-GgNERAL stated, ;liar tlir
Court of King's Bench had decided that the•corduct
of the Judge was legal, and that the defendaat had.
not been impeded in his defence.
Mr. SC A Rum explained; and the Petition was.
then withdrawn.

AGRICULTURAL DISTREsS.

Mr. CURNVEN presented a Petition irons Ite Nam tml
Occupiers of Land in the Parish of Ilarringtori,Countyofe6m-
berland, complaining of Agricultural Dratrese.--Laid on thetahl:
and ordered to be printed.
Mr. CU ItTElSpresented a Petition from certain Landholders
in the neighbourhood of lloriam, in Suuex, oa the subject at
Agrict.tural Di,,tre;s:7l.2id on the

—Mr. LOCKE! A ItT pre%ritcd a Petition hem 116 Otterien
of Land at Northampton ; and another, signed by Po eventy
copiers of Land near Pserboroag:i, complaining siAgricaltand
Distress.—Laid on the table.

Mr. WESTERN preseEted a reition from the Amish of
Ding:e, in Essex, on the same sub;ect.-I.nd onthe table.

Mr. GOOCH rose, pursuant to notice, to myelin.
a Committee on the Agricultural Distress; and he
hoped the Committee would have full power to in.
quire into the cause of that distress, and to point oat
the remedies. It was one consolation that the case
had never called forth any political or party feeling.
All the great sources of the prosperity of the country
were involved in each other; Uralic must thinkthat
Agriculture was the basis of the prosperity of the
country. The Petitioners were 100,000 in nurrkr,
and formed the heart's blood of the country. A No-
ble Lord, in another place, had ascribed the preset
state of things to a superabundant crop; but hoer
that opinion- he differed, as 'a superabundance had
not generally been the case. He disapproved of the
system of the Corn Laws, and especially of that part
that related to the warehousing. A great. quantity
of grain was thrown into the market, and the pries
necessarily fell. The sum total paid to the Property
Tax by the land, had been six millions ; while the
other classes paid only two millions. Things could
not go on as they did at present, and he hoped the
House would do its duty freely and manfully. CP
less the question was met fairly, a Committee ea
only be a delusion ; but he thought something might
be done to preserve the country from total ruM. Ike
Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving Me
the several Petitions on the subject of the Agricalts•
ral Distress, should be referred to a Select Cole
mittee, to inquire into the causes of the existing dis•
tress, and to report upon. them to the House.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL seconded the motion. Al
that was asked by the Petitioners was inquiry, and
not to interfere with the principles of political er.
'noresy. Ile hoped the House would look to a rani'
cal result, as by that alone could the country behest`
fited. The object was to do what was for the g
of the Public. He must distinctly disclaim ani
teution to raise the price of bread. The case os
brought before the House from absolute and irafe;
rious necessity. The general distress was Pre"'
from the increase of pauperism, and the accumto
tion of the Poor Rates. He was afraid that maul
tradesmen of the metropolis had not received that
prompt payment of their bills which the interests , ,
commerce required. If, for the last five years, thel
farmer had received the average price of 711 s. gear-
ter, he would admit that he -had no case to mak.
j,
out. In five parishes near him, 3,000 acres 111,
either been given up to the landlord, or thrown el.,
of cultivation. In 1818, 1819, and MO, the case 0.
the farmer had been growing worse and worse.
farmer had been compelled to bring his corn at,"
early time to the market, and hence the price 0"
been low. The great quantity of corn in the ID!:
ket, from 1818, had been constantly
affecting b.•
price of provisions. ShoUld the price rise to
the ports would he thrown open, and the coal,
would be inundated with foreign corn ; that 7,
affect the price of provisions for three years. in
the Bill for the Resumption of Cash Payments
been first introduced, it had been regarded as
doubtful policy. But after the progress that .
been made, and a recent notice of the (;hander
the Vachequer, he thought it would be isasPe'

It Nature back our steps. .Economy should he the
basis of every measure, and •he thought something
light be done in the comae of the present year. But
sesn.
'ons to that effect could not be listened to if
ompaitied with taunts, as that was not the spirit
that could lead to economy and retrenchment. In
the Committee that was about to be appointed, he
hoped no proposal would be made for any violation
of public Nub. With the doctrine that the landed
wmertyof England was mortgaged for the National
bek he wholly disagreed ; nor in the case of insol-
mocy could the land be called upon to pay. Aluch
date poorer lands of the country-had, by the pre-
tot system, been thrown out of cultivation, and ulti-
sagely that must be the case of the richer soils. A
repeal of the Tax on Husbandry Horses would be of
no important benefit to the farmer, as he had met
with none who regarded it as a grievance. ' The in-
discreet zeal of a certain Society, had been injurious
40 the cause of the Agriculturists. The Bill for the
'Regulation of the Averages, including those of Ire-
land, would be of essential advantage, and a gra-
duated scale of Duties on Foreign Corn, in propor-
tion to the price'of British Corn, was an alteration
he should wish to see adopted : and also an addition
to the price of Oats above that of 1815.
Mr. 11.013INSON-was desirous to take an early
the House. In a former
opportunity of addressing
Session, he had
opposed a similar motion, as the dis-
tress could not be ascribed to the existing laws, and
to specific plan was intended to be proposed. But
considerations of feeling and expediency, might call
for acceding to a proposal, which, at a former time,
had been refused. Had the course taken last year
by the House been deemed satisfactory to the Pub-
lic, these could be no ground on the expediency for
the appointing of a Committee. • But as th it had
tot been the case, he was not ashamed of his incon-
sistency in voting for an unconstrained Committee.
Va the subject or retrenchment, the state of public
credit was to be taken into view, whether it was bet-
ter to diminish the Taxes, or to make a reJuction of
the Public Debt, and which would ultimately be
most beneficial to the country. Pains had been
takea to impress on the Agriculturists, that the only
adequate protection was high Duties on Foreign
Corn. In 1812, many articles might have been im-
Tened duty flee; such as Cheese, Butter, and vari-
vas kinds of Seel, that now paid a high duty, and
were extremely productive to the Revenue. Should
these be prohibited, a large sum would be lost to, the
beeline. The spirit that actuated the Mover and
Seconder of the motion, was that spirit that alone
could do good, if carried into the Committee. Even
should no remedy be discovered, the impartial in-
quiry on the part of the Committee would tranquil-
lize the public mind.

Mr. CI;ItWEN thought that the 'light Hon. Gen-
tleman had not argueed the question fairly, as he
iMr.Curwen) and his ttiends had always disclaimed
the idea of prohibiting duties. He was of opinion
that much blame was to be attached to Ministers ;
as, if they were aware of the extent of the evil, it
scas their imperious duty to propose a remedy. The
income of the country, in its most flourishing state,
had never exceeded 4.00 millions. For the last three
months the farmer had lost Bs. 'on each bushel of
corn. On wheat alone we lost 15 millions, on oats
and barley 15 millions more, and on other stock
l 0 millions ; taking Scotland and Ireland at 15 mil-
lions, the total loss would be 55 millions. That loss
Ind added 6} per cent. to taxation, and the total tax- '
anon amounted to 26} per cent. The rental of the
whole empire did not exceed 40 millions, and the
diminution was equal "to a year and a quarter of the
whole rent. No man could believe these was an in-
creased consumption amidst such a diminution of
wealth; or, if it were so, it would only prove that
the country was expending its capital. But, in the
aticle of tobacco and shoes there had been a great
diminution ; and in the statements of the Chancellor
al the Exchequer, he believed there had been some
great mistakes. In 1817 corn had fallen at once
*b. per quarter ; and in 1818 and 1819 an impor-
tation had. taken place to the amount of two months
consumption, though one month's would have been
efficient, and the surplus remained to lower the
price of native corn. He disclaimed a price that
could bear hard on any class of the community ;
and too low a price was equally against the interest
of the manufacturer as of the agriculturist. Ilad
the low price of corn created a comfortable state for
any class of the community ? Nothing could restore
'the prosperity of the country but the recovery of the
35 millions that had been lost to the agriculturist--
A great Polish proprietor had told him that 12s. per
quarter would be an ample remuneration, and could!
the British grower compete on such terms? The
wheat of the kingdom amounted to IS million quar-
ters, of which seven and a half milieus were grown
on the poorer soils, and that gave employment to
300,000 individuals, and produced a, revenue of six
millions ; and if those were thrown out of employ-
ment as agriculturists, how could other employment
he procured for them ? A Noble Lord in another
place (Liverpool) bad certainly mistaken the case in
ascribing the state of things to a superabundant crop.
The unproductive labour that wits increasing each
day was another source of the distress. It 1,000
tanners were asked if the labour of their farms had
, not been diminished, they would all answer in the affir-
mative. Ile (Mr. Curwen) must state, that the House
had no power to exempt any class from taxation at
a time like the present. Ile believed that it would
1e the Noble Lord and his colleagues who would be
compelled to touch the dividends of the stockholders.
lavas inevitable but that a crisis must soon come
aben the People would not endure this state of things.
They must come to an economy equal to the exigen-
ces of the State. This was the real state of things ;
and however they might deceive themselves, it cer-
tt:nly would soon come upon them. Ile had never
let voted against his conscience, nor never would.
Mr. WIIITMOIIE attributed the whole misfor-
tunes of the country to the late war; and the subse-
qcent want of economy since the peace; and he en-
tered into various statements respecting the striking
the Averages, Ste. Ile thought it would be the policy
‘ll this country to abrogate all the laws imposing
duties on all articles itni,ol Led from IrelaAd; bet at
site same time lie did not know howany flee inter-
:ourceenuld be allowe' to foreign corn. Foreign cern
"Id not bd smuggled into -this country ; ant! the
4'lulLwas in over-production at home'; and not in ex-
,euile involution. Whether the over-production
m home moose from la) consumption at home or not

he would not now pretend to say. It 'eras in conse-
quence of taxation that every interest in the country
was depressed. There•seemed to him to be.a wish
in the country to raise the price of corn beyond its
natural level ; while the value of rents had been
raised disproportionably. He was thoroughly of opi-
nion that the high price would not last, because the
fall of the price of corn would oblige the poor land
to be again taken out of cultivation. This he should
lament as much as any man ; but such was his (-pi-
nion. The first remedy, and one of absolute neces-
sity, was, every species of economy in every branch
of the Revenue and of Government. There was no
disposition in the country to complain beyond the
actual pressure of the public burdens; yet he could
not vote for the motion of last night,, because he
feared there would be next year such a falling-off in
the Revenue as would not justify the House in get-
ting rid of the Assessed Taxes on windows. He
wished that a variable, and not a fixed duty, should
be placed on foreign corn, similar to the law of
1804. .But, however those duties might be gra-
duated, he thought 80s. a quarter too high a price
to regulate the importation of foreign corn. As to
the 13u11ion quest'on,- he thought the die was already
cast, and that the resumption of Cash-payments was
too precipitate.
Mr. HONY\VOOD hoped that the public mind
would not be too greatly raised by the expectation.
of any great good from' a Committee of that House,
unless an anxious desire was manifested for retreneh-
ment in the Taxes, and an alteration in the Poor
Laws. The evil was excessive taxation. This was
not an Administration founded on die wishes of the
People, but upon patronage. If we were to return
to the prices of corn in 1792, let them also return to
the same number of our Standing Army, the same
number of Secretaries of State, and Leads of the
Admiralty—ll/ear, hear).
Mr. W. BURRELL thought the distresses of the 1
country arose from the importation of foreign corn,
and that that could be proved' before the Committee,
if granted. What was to become of the population,
if, the thin clay lands were thrown out of cultivation,

•xs proposed by the Member for Bridgenorth (Mr:
Whitmore)? There should be a reduction of taxa-
tion, and of the importation of foreign corn.
\lr. TII EM A YNE contended, that if any assistance
could be granted to Agriculture, it must be done in
conjunction with relief to every other branch in the
Siate. The House should therefore turn its attention
to the proceedings in Committees of Supply. The
farmers might do much, and the Magistrates could
assist them in the administration of the Poor Laws ;
but our mainstay must be economy and retrenchment.
Everything that could be done would be done by
this Committee ; he hoped the expectations of
the Agriculturalist would not be raised too high.
Mr. J. WODEBOUSE said, the man must be an
idiot, or worse than an idiot, who could deny that
every• class in the country suffered from taxation.—
Ile had voted last night against the motion then sub-
mitted to the house, because that proposition had
not appeared to him the most eligible that could be
' produced ; and he had voted against the motion for
Ilthe repeal of the Agricultural Horse Duty, because,
,considering that to be of little importance, to have
voted for the motion, if he had regarded it in a
different light, would have been to lend himself to a
practical delusion. In noticing what had been said
on the subject of light soils, he remarked, that the
•finest wheats produced at the London markets came
from Essex and Sussex, and were raised on lands, the
cultivation of- which was as difficult and as hazard-
ous as that of any part of the country. He had a
paper in his..hand, which contained the experience of
an individual for the last thirty years.. If this con-
tained but a dish of lies, he must throw up the case ;
but he implicitly believed it. He wished to call at-
tention to a comparison to an average of the crops
produced on a particular farm at different periods.—
He would take the.years 1791 and 1819. He would
also compare the charges sustained for rent, tithes,
poors' fates, taxes, labour, and tradesmen's hills, from
accounts made up to Michaelmas, 1791, and Michael-
mas, 1819. The average crop taken from 1791 was
40 bushels of wheat per acre, which told for Bs. 6d.
,per bushel. The crop of 1819 was 34 bushels, which
sold for Bs. 3d. per bushel. The crop of barley, per
acre, in 1791, averaged 40 bushels, and was sold for
6s. 6d. per bushel. In 1819, the produce and the
price were the same; The expenses borne by the far,
mer at the two periods, were as follows :

Rent, per acre 1791 £BO 13 0
11819 l3O 2 6
Tithes % 1791 l4 9 0
11819 29 0 0
Poore Rates. 1117E9191 8 2 8
49 8 0
Assessed Taxe5.......... 1:7% 1 13 1
8
19 1 0
Labour 1117891 ll6 1 3
19
193 3 1
Blacksmith's Bill. 1 11759191 BlO 8
18 13 6
11791 1 1 10