Star.
London, England, 1821-04-10 00:00:00

BANK CASH PAYMENTS.

The CHANC ELLOR of the tX.eil QUEII moved
the Order of the Day fur the !loose going into a
Committee on this Bill. •

Mr. W4ItRE wished to ask the Chancellor of the
Exchequer whether GOveEnment had any intention
of proposing an Amendment in the Smuggling Laws?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he could not answer that question.
On the question for the SPEAR 61 leaving the !Chair,
Mr. BARING said, he felt disposed to move that
the whole subject of the Cash Payments should .be
referred to a Committee; and if he was at all encou-
raged to d0..50, he should divide the House upon it.
He consideted the state of our currency as the great
cause of the present general distress.. The alteration
in the value of our currency was the root of our dif-
ficulties. He considered the difference between the
present value and that of money at .its most &pre._
crated' state, aslgreatly exceeding 25 per cent. and he
should now propose the appointment of a Commit-
tee to inquire whether any and what alteration could

lae'Made for the relief of the Public, in the preview
the Act of the 59th of the late King, chap 's
e *as aware that it was desirable to interfere
pith
ibis question as little as possible, and therefore only
upon the most mature consideration would he re-
commend any alteration. He need not remind the
House. of the repeated assertions which had bees
made in the House and elsewhere, that no deprecia,
tion in the value of money had takes place. Persons
crediting these assertions had entered into engage:
ments, and made bargains and contracts, which now
they foetid themselves utterly unable to fulfil. An
Hon. Friend of his had said, look to the value of the
precious metals ; but he (Mr. Baring) would say
look at the value of every as tick of life; and it would
)re found that the alteration was one-third, one-fourth;
and in ninny cases one-half. Take the price of corn
as it. stood now as regarded other articles pretty
nearly-2S ii did, it would buy as much sugar or lea-
titer as formerly ; but still the farmer could not sue,
tain himself, -because he had so many cash payments
to make in his altered;currency. He was aware that
the standard could not be touched without injustice
to some individuals ; but having touched it, he
thoughtl he fairest course would he to fix the standard
at as near a proportion with the value of commodi-
ties as po;silaje.• Previous to 1797 the pound of W..
vet- was worth 625.-e-now saner was at 4s. 101 we
ounce—a difference of seven per cent. This direr.
• ence had therefore taken place in the value of oar
four standards ; and bad we never meddled with the
standard, silver would have been seven per cm
lower than it at present was. Much difficulty weed
be ridded to the operations of the Bank if there was
only metal for a legal tender. The country WAS un-
der.too great difficulties to be looking to beautiful
theories on the subject of the circulating medium.
Had the sovereigns been made to pass ere- 21s. like
the guinea, it would have been no bleach of faith.
The year 1797 was not to be looked to, as that was
the time when the circulating medium was first die
turbed. The pound sterling was now higher than it
had ever been before. It would be some time befme
the prices adapted themselves to the altered value of
thecoin. The price of labour had varied but little;
and though it must come down, yet it men be
through much distress, and must causegreat discon-
tent. That was one of the great difficulties of the
present situation. It would take years to adapt the
existing state of things to the standard; and it would
have been much better to have adapted the set-Mani
to that scale of things. It would be torebe.Hotoe
to consider if the country could go pa inethe,pleseet
'state of thins; and if note thie-subject :ehouliMed
reconsidered leisurely, Rd the Houseshouldim-Z:7
km one year to elapse. If the -..thancelleest the
Exchequer thott'ghe_ his finance woad-keep upwitier:
the state of eurrency,ehe-weuld find himself die.
alipoitted. • If iehad 'dune Stehitherto, it was mei%
to the price of severel,ilasses of labdr being over.
Itoseexperiment . was extremely perilous, to
try how manyedvoaes could be kept in a hive in pro-
pos-ties* tisehe bees. He should move, that a Select
Committee be appointed. to Cenilder thes9th.of the
)ate King, ch. 49,. and to report ..if it Was expedient
to make any alteration in the same.
Mr. ATTWOOD said, that.in the years 1815 ana
181 G, the.country began. to' import bullion; and is
the year 1818 the same gold was exported, in atime
of prosperity; and had now re-appeared, in the pre-
sent time of distress:—£4 per ounce hid not been the
price at which the country had been enabled' to buy
gold *till the time-of the present aistress. It was net
the Debt alone that oppressed the People, but the
Debt and the Taxes combined, and the flux and re-
flux of this Precious metal, gold. We should return.
to that system from which we had departed with in-
considerate haste. Every species of property, but that
of annuitants, had lately experienced a great fluctua-
tion. The currency of the country had been derv.
ciated from twenty to fifty per cent. during the war,
but the value of the currency had been restored.; and
a fall of prices-hadtaken place in 1816, and also now.'
In 1818, when the currency had been depreciated.
the prices rose. But it was the duty of the House*
dispel the obscurity in which the subject was involvedt
and all the distress had arisen from the restorations'.
the ancient standard, and was the price paid for thit
restoration. But that circumstance had escaped the
attention of the Committee of 1818. The standard
of value had been lowered and raised alternately,
and the consequences had escaped attention. To the
low scale of prices all the distress of all classes was
resolvable. A reduction of .Bank-eotes, since 1814
had taken place, from £29,000,000 to £211,000,001
part of the lands had been thrown out of cultivation,
and the shipping of the country was too great for its
commerce. A diminution in the demand of lake,
would necessarily' cause a diminution in the supple-
In the year 1818, when the price of malt was Weir
the consumption was greater, by 800,000 quota*
than in 1820, when the price was far lower. hind
been said, that the quantity of British spirits had to.,
creased, though the price of malt was low; but the •
Noble Lord who had made that statement bad teije
taken the quantity of wash for that of spirit. heal
of the utmost importance to probe the subject, and
he believed it wits in the power of the Govern-
ment to remove the distress, by giving back to the
country that standard in which the Debt oldie cow
try had been contracted: That had been done to a
certain extent in 1816; and had the Governmentth* ;
made the Batik-notes exchangeable at a real value,
all the subsequent distress would have been avoided.
To return to the old standard would give a remune-
ration price for evcry.specis of labour. In 1:97,
much injustice had been committed; but the Pel''‘.
Creditor of 1797 had become the Land-holder ot
1820, and to indemnify the Fund-holder-of lari
would be attended witlethe utmost injustice to tbs
Land-holder of 182.0. • None of the Esteldishases•
of this country. could be regulated by a blind doh
ence to the srandard -of 1797. The -Horroue#o
Gentleman who preceded him had propn;ektorir*
the prices teak aloe utt of six or. eight-per cent.—be'
yotutehat it wasimPossible to go, except by the ino3e
that he had recommended. Should tlio preseLt
be persisted:in,. it ierreld consign to the Werkleents,
the most valuable'part.ef the community.
On the question being put from the Chair,
• The CHANCELLOR of the.EXCIIEQUER semi
that lie had been reproached with supporting
tilicial order of things, and delaying a return to IT
old system ; inn -now the. Ilouie. was, 4;414 09,w_
adapt the state of things to the stendarei. He
wished to know what that standard was? Whatev

I 1

w:
be
91

right he the cause a great depatture had taken.placel
from the old‘44tatidaild ; fah ..fluttssittitny hat
risen. Tra• which of these -fhietuatitig standatdi
Would the Honourable Gentleman return ? No one
°trend teed,* pointed out in which gtoss injusrite
;mold not be'clime in the case of all contracts made
More or sifter-the partietilar times. Soon after the
peace the tame standard had been restored, which,.
by another process the House was about to revive.
A depreciationlad 'afterwardi taken place, and that
might be owing to the sums that had been borrowed
from the Bank,; in consequence of the failure of the
property Tax. But that depreciatiOn bad never been'
mat. The only viity to 'avoid a number of anoma.
riesovould be to adhere to the plan adopted by Par-
hament b 1818. After a great Reform had been
tfected, the House had been called oo to retrace its
steps, and to undo what had been done. The :Mem-
ber for Taunton had, on a former night, proposed a
vermanent paper system, exchangeable for ingots.
'Vat such a plan could never succeed, unless the
Forgery of Bank notes could • be prevented. For-
snerly the silver currency had been a legal tender;
bat in 1774, a legal tender in silver by tale, had
been confined to £2. After that year, silver had
ceased to be a legal tender, and that had been the
object of the last Act, only limiting the tender to £2.
The object was to divide the gold, which had become
the only legal tender. In the subdivision of the paper
currency, the country had all the advantage of a sil-
ver currency. The statement made as to the value
of silver, applied to dollars only. Of other silver the
price was 4s. 11 id. per ounce. The Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Attwood) ascribed all the distress to,
the low prices. But in other countries the deprecia-
tion had been equally great, and in America the de-
predation had been much greater, especially in the•
price of flour. But the accumulation of produce, both
in this country and in others, had contributed to the
low prices. After all that had been uttered, the ques-
tion was, should the House retrace its steps, and re-
turn to that state of uncertainty from which it had
been the object of Parliament to relieve the country?
The Revenue had not suffered from the steps that
bad been adopted, and the produce of the last Quarter
had been greater than that of the corresponding
Quarks of the former year. A much more probable
remedy appeared in adhering to the opinion of Par-
liament, than in adopting any new scheme. By such
a procedure the opinions of that House would lose all
their weight with the country. '
Mr. GRENFELL said, that the motion of the.Ho-
rourable Member for Taunton would subvert all that
bad been done for upwards of two years. But the
theory and the practice of the Honourable Gentleman
eemed widely at variance. The real tendency of the
motion was to set the whole question afloat, and to
rephinge the country in that state of uncertainty
which he (Mr. Baring) admitted at the same time to
be a great evil. But he (Mr. Grenfell) trusted that the
question rested on a basis that could not be shaken.
Mr. MONCK thought the subject one of the most
important that could come before the House, as it
was e hether the National Debt was to be paid in the
base cur ency in which it had been contracted, or in
the sound currency to which the country was about
to return ? Some years back the House had come to
a singular Resolution, that a £1 note and a guinea
were of the same value in the market, and at that
time the Government had employed persons to buy
op guineas for 28s. in order to send them abroad—
(Hear, hear). Some time after, when the Bank paid
some of their notes in gold, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had triumphantly stated, that cash payments
had been virtually resumed. The question did not
wholly regard the relative depreciation of paper and
sold, but the depreciation both of gold and paper,
as it affected commodities. A large issue of paper
threw gold out of circulation, and sent it to the
foreign markets. The late Lord Liverpool had
estimated the guineas in circulation as twenty-
five millions ; all of which had been displaced from
circulation by the issue of Bank of England Notes.
If in France, when the currency amounted to ninety
millions, if a paper currency was to be adopted, all
that sum would be sent abroad, and all commodities
would rise in price ; though till the issue of paper
had become excessive, gold and paper would keep
their relative value. In this country, while corn had
been elevated 100 per cent. gold had only been ele-
vated 27 per cent. A reduction had taken place in
the issue of Bank paper to the amount of six millions,
and a most extraordinary reduction had also taken
place in the quantity of country paper. In 1818
£165,000 had been paid for stamp-duties by country
broke-s; next year the sum paid had been £64,000;
and, in 1820, the sum paid for stamp-duties had only
been 12.51,000. Since 1797 the National Debt had
been increased to £800,000,000 ; and the whole of
our expenses and of our establishment had been im-
mensely increased. The whole of the paper in cir-
culation in the United Kingdom might be stated at
fifty millions. The Bank of England, no doubt,
could pay in gold their share, which was twenty.
three millions; but the country banks had no means
of paying in gold the fifteen millions that they had
issued. I'o procure gold they must sell their stock,
and that would cause a great fall in the Funds.—
Most people, from curiosity, would like to bless their
eyes with the sight of a guinea. Speculation also
would be busily at work, and he was afraid that
many, from malevolence, would demand gold, as it
was a maxim with the discontented to attack the
Exchequer, and not the Horse Guards. But what-
ever difficulties might occur, they would operate as
a warning to us not to interfere with so sacred a sub-
ject as that of our national currency—(Heer).
Mr. RICARDO had recommended to the Bank
Directors not to buy gold, but to sell it, and then the
alteration in the value of money would not have been
!tore than four or five per cent. Upon any system
It was impossible to guard against a variation in the
toetals themselves. Up to 1797 or 1798 silver bad i
been a legal tender, and any quantity might have
been taken to the Mint and paid away as a legal ten-
d,- Government knew that there were two-thirds
of salver in circulation, and refused to take the base
silver- Thus gold became the standard. It was ex-
traordinary that the Member for Taunton had given
it as his opinion before the Committee that one metal
only should be 'the standard, and that gold should
be that metal. In his opinion this subject ought to
be allowed to drop ; and that the public mind should
net be kept in a constant state of agjtation and alarm
°Pon it, as his Honourable Friend always did by re-
living the subject. His Honourable Friend had said

. . •
'that the labourer ran away With a great'sleal of the
capital of the country.; If that were so, he (Mr.'lii-
cardo) would be extremely glad-of it; but be feared
that theiabourer was not so well off as his Honour-
able Friend would have them tielleve, '
Mr. GURNEY contended,. that. tha.issue of sove-
reigns at 21s. would have the .affect of laying a tax
of five per cent. on all monied gttoperty.
Mr. ELLICE denied that:the depreciation in the
state of the value of property depetided upon anything
but the depreciation of the currency. It might seem
strange to the House, that he could get no man in• it
to second a Resolution. which he meant to have
moved, " That the great distress of 1815 arose from
a sudden attempt to return to Casa Payments."—No
foreign merchant that was in business in 1818, 1819,
and 1820, but must have felt it. The farmers were
distressed, that they could not get a market for
their commodities. This was true; and it was in vait
foi the farmer to look for a remunerating price. His
only remedy for agricultural and commercial affairs
was to reduce the expenditure, and, necessarily, the
amount of taxation. As.long as the Monied Interest•
lasted, so long must the present Government last,
and not a minute longer. He should always be at
his post, advocating public faith, credit, and honour;
because he deprecated the crisis which otherwise must
ensue, and which he never wished to see this country
' reduced to, though he thought the measures of Go-
vernment were calculated to force us to that crisis.

Mr. PEARSE supported the present system, and
especially that now proposed.
Mr. IRVING corroborated the statement of the
Hon. Member for Coventry, respecting the losses
sustained by those whose speculatimis had commenced
in the years 1818, 1819, and 1820. He had seen a
statement of the concerns of a mercantile house,
which had vested 1:360,000 in ships, ventures at sea,
&c. which were in a short time afterwards valued at
£292,000, but did not, in fact, realize more than
£142,000 ; so that the difference. between the esti-
mated value and the produce was fifty per cent. and
the total loss to the owners sixty per cent. He gave
that as a proof of the effects of this measure upon
commerce; and he would be a bold Legislator who,
knowing these results, would have ventured to pro-
pose such a measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman
said, he did not expecrto be called into a discussion
upon this subject to-night, but it was impossible to
think that the House would .let this Occasion pass
without declaring their opinions.. The House ought
to be much indebted to the Hon. Member for Cal-

lington, for the very able•speech which he had made,
the effect of which would be, nat only to make the
House, but the country at large, win their attention
to this most important subject. He did not think it
expedient for the House to review this subject with
any view to depreciation of currency, because it was
not from a view of depreciation of currency that any
advantage could be derived, but from augmentation
of circulation, which he now (thought too little—
( Hear, hear).—Some Hon. Members might think
that he had changed his opinions, but he did not
think that he had ever given an opinion except in fa-
vour of a return to a metallic currency. He neither
agreed with the measure nor the mode proposed for
carry ing it into effect ; and his chief objection was to
the apprehensions likely to be created in the public
mind. In the year 1819, when this country had ar-
rived at the highest pitch of prosperity by trade, the
apprehensions excited by this measure, even before
the objects of it were known, had the effect of depre-
ciating every commodity at least 20 per cent. He
confessed that be should be glad to agree to the ap-
pointment of a Committee, were it not for the alarm
which such an appointment would create. With
respect to the proposition of having two standards,
he must confess that he had considerable objections
to it. He thought we had mistaken the metal for
our standard, because silver was the metal of those
countries with which this country traded ; and he
confessed he did not know how we could measure
our metals by a comparison with countries whose
standards were different. He should therefore wish
silver to be the standard, as gold was not as silver
was, the money of the world. He agreed with his
Hon. Friend, that an abundance or scarcity of silver
regulated at all times the Exchange. He agreed with
the Bank Directors, that the quantity of metals in
circulation was too small, and he did not see that the
Hon. Gentleman could do better than to take care
that the Public should be furnished with a larger
quantity of circulation. which he was quite sure would,
in a great degree, remedy the evil ; and he would
wish the maxtmunt in the variation between gold and
silver to be one per cent.
Mr. CRIPPS thought that a gradual return to
Cash Payments was the best; but he did not under-
stand why the fa notes should be withdrawn from
circulation, which would be a great inconvenience to
the Public. It might be said that it would reduce
the number of forgeries; but those who now forged
£1 notes would then turn their attention to forging
notts.

Mr. PEARSE did not think that the suspension of
the issue of El notes would be any inconvenience to
the Public.
Lord A. HAMILTON thought they ought to post-
pone this subject to give time for inquiry. Some years
ago a Right Hon. Gentleman got the House to agree
to a Resolution that there was no depreciation in the
currency. Now he talked very coolly of the depre-
ciation, but without taking any steps to get rid of
that obnoxious Resolution. The Agricultural distress
arose from the very change in the value of the cur-
rency ; and many were reduced to poverty and a jail
through the measures of the present Government.
Mr. J. SMITH denied that the price of corn had
fallen owing to the change isi the value of money.—
Corn had fallen for the last two yews 40 and 50 per
cent. while the money was not depreciated. During
that time he had never found capital more plentiful,
or easier to be got at. The crops had been very large,
and to that cause alone would he attribute the great
depreciation that bad taken place in the money mar-
ket.—Government might get a loan of E 60,000,000,
more, if wanted : the Chancellor of the Exchequer
could get it without paying above Si per cent.
Mr. f. WILSON was decidedly of opinion enquiry
should talce place, and that immediately, or it might'
be too late. If no other good resulted from it,. the
enquiry would satisfy the People, by stewing them
that everything which could be done was done.
I Mr. WODEHOUSE supported the Amendment

Mr. HART DAVIS wis-in favour of the Bill.

Mx. Alderman Ilk YGATE spoke in favour of the

Amendment, amid loud cries oN Question r The
Gallery was then cleared for a divison:

For the motion - - - 141
For the Amendment- • 27
Majority in fayoor of the Bill —ll4
The House then went Into a Committee on the Bill.
Mr. BARING repeated his former argument, that
labour was in 'many insuncei too highly paid, and
again urged the adoption of a silver, as well as gold
currency ; he contended, that to equalize the cur-
rency, the sovereign ought to be raised to 21s. We
were now proceeding under a system which, he was
convinced, could last but a tery short time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de-
fended the present system.
Mr. W. POLE contended, upon authorities which
he cited, that a preference had always been given to
gold as the standard of the realm. It always had the
advantage over silver, which never was,' but in one
instance, a legal tender. -
The Clauses were then agreed to.—Report to-morrow.

IRISH RANK RESTRICTION ACT.

On the Order of the Day for the House going into
a Committee on the Irish 'tank Restriction Act,
Mr. GRENFELL asked if there was any intention
to renew the Dish Bank Charter?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
no negociation was yet on foot, and he could give no
answer.

Mr. BENNETT considered the mention of appeal
to Pal liament as a farce ; if Government once gave a
promise, no doubt Parliament would sanction it. He
could not, however, consent to the renewal of this
monopoly to the Bank, with their bonuses, their for-
' geries, and their hangings—(Hear, hear). Other times,
however, would occur for observations on this over-
grown system, to•which, in his opinion, the country
owed so great a portion of its misfortunes—(Hear).
Mr. PEARSE defended the Bank; who, in her
dealings, had always consulted the public good.
After some further conversation the Bill passed,
through the Committee.—Report to-morrow.