Star.
London, England, 1816-02-28 00:00:00

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• • •
NA i
was n a discontented state.
• bad nut derived these benefits which ,
At cutai to her by Gentlemen opposite, when
they called a Union—which
heir -bej and paid for—and which, though a union
ak,ffai poineolview, was not so with reference to
%,
and and feelings of the people. (Near. hear.)
pante in consequence of this want of liar-
ores tole governed by the sword ; and though
reseJ was not necessary in England, yet the same
Was to be stationed. here. The peeetni;ons
of
Chancellor of the Exchequer, on which he ,
the necessity for efforts the country was
eto twee, arose out of circumstances which
sinisters themselves chose to create (Hear, hear.)
country gentlemen of England, who now felt the
of those circumstances, which, till this time
over believed, would, he busted, assume their
situation in the state, and exert themselves in
..of their property, and, what was infinitely
ort of the liberties of their country.
prdMILTON agreed in many of the sentiments
the Honourable Baronet had expressed ; but
was one., point in his speech, which, he con-
. called . for obseryation. The Honmirable
,Pt expressed a hope, that such a clamour and
t would be made, as should prevent the Chan.
the Exchequer' from renewing the Property
He (Lord Milton) wished that such represen.
• ihoold be made as would operate against the
• nce of the measure, bust not in the Manner
to by the Honourable Baronet. He viewed
presentations as acting on that Now, and not
swore. He was persuaded, that the Right
Genileman (the Chancelloit of the Exchequer),
be bad no regard for his own dignity, vr tot
unrest: of his country, if he should abandon the
(mad be thought he would abandon it), would,
o, not for fear of clamour out of doors, but for
of losing a majority in that House. Because, be
convinced, it the Right Hon. Gentleman
led the people, those who nominally, or virtually
them, would support their cause. The
Lord then observed, that he had voted•for the
y Tax, last Session, because the circumstances
the country called for exertions that could not
• been effectual without- it. But those circum.
canoes having ceased, he noW felt bound to oppose it.
re FRANCIS BURDETT said, the Noble Lord
put words into Ilis mouth, which he had not
"lade use of. The Nohle Lord said, he had expressed
swish that the clamours of the public would prevent
Sisters from carrying this measure. He eas
in
the recollection of the House, when he asserted, that
belied uttered no such thing. On the contrary, he
mainly relied on the landed proprietors, those who
sem began to feel the critical situation of the corns-
indirecting tie public voice against the measure,
adorn/Jelling Ministers to abandon it. He certainly
fdt,that the majorities would noi fall off, as long as
Moisten thou proper to go on with the tax.
Lord MILTON—" I may have mistaken the
words of the Hon. Baronet, but I have not misre-
piesentedbis meaning. He is of opinion that the re-
presentations of tl.e people will cause Ministers to
Asada' the measure, instead of having their consti-
tatiol32l erect on the House."
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT—I4 The Noble Lord
says, the repreientadons made by the people will ope.
rue on the House. I say, they will operate on
kers. This is the difference between us, and has
oohing to do with tumult or clamour." (Hear.)
Lord EBRINGTON .could not believe that
the Home would refuse to attend to the feelings of
fie people. He thought better of the Members of
'born it was composed thin to believe them capable
dutch a course : he knew the majority of them to be
adependent country Gentlemen, whose minds were
et diverted from the true interests of the eeople, by

__ ._ig their thoughts, like those of the Noble Lorii
"mite, entirely lamed to ob;.ects of foreign policy.'
For his own part, he was resolied to oppose the Bill in I
nay stage.; and trusted that the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite would think better, and see how
impedient it was, how unjit.t and unconstitutional
lottery sense, to harry through the House a measure
if inch importance.
Mr. PRESTON said he wiiped, if it were possible,
b route the Right Hononrable Gentleman (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) to action, that be might see
dims in a true light, and that if he would only at-
.he would read him a history of the distresses of
the MnKry.—( Laughter.) He saw that the Right
Rommble Gentians) smiled, because he had his
okilitai around him.—(Laugher.) It was a mistake
to say slut Le (Mr. Preston) thought that the dis-
neWss tithe country were occasioned by its resources
helsg impaired : he did not think that the resources
°NU country were impaired, but he thought that
the present distresses were occasioned by our having
atinnshic, miscalculating, puny Chancellor of the
6,_eticc—(Cree ; of Order! and loneder,) who did
Pt 4111 OW the res.mram of the counts y, owing to the
roan . ce and want of power of his little mind.—
"ell of ! sad Quesfiox !)--The Hon. Gentle.
innlhosing gore on for some time longer in the same
illri, was so effectually interrupted by coughing and
54Eicisthequestion, that he was obliged to sit down.
214 ROBERT GORDON only trespassed upon
f dole of the House for a few moments, to say a
nnerds as to what had fallen from the Chancellor
"°' Exchequer, as to the omission of the words,
,`,
cod uo longer," Which were stated to have been
d wthe Committee on the Bill. Having
eked into the Committee books, be found no vestige
any omission of these words, or of any such pro.
Pot
_having been at ail made; and although Le hail
fall attended the Committee, he had no recollec-
tthat there bad been any question about those
ti
• ds' He found, however, that in another Cum-,
tailm ....""It upon the Bank Restricti in Act—these i
/' " and no longer,"' had been omitted, after a
PI:1)0W for then: iavertien. It was therefore probable
that the Right Hon.
rim Bill f Gent. had mistaken the Property
Or the Bank Restriction Bid, wheu he had
weeWked of the express omission of these words ; though
'pick c.l' be must say, there was something like a little
In what the Right Hon. Gentleman-had to-night
vos....upon this subject.
1:110 CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
dew4Pl4_
Loud. Mire he WAS re that there were many Gen-
en in the House who were plebe" when the dis-
*aiou Look piece in the Cnintnittee, about the omis-
"ir Of the word., " and no longer," in the former
. till' Tax Bill.
''°l localism that the Petition be brought up, waa

.

. •..
'&4l pin and 'carried,' The Petfigen bring hvoisghti
,up, on the question that it 'tumid betted being 'put,
Mr. MADDOCKS obseried, that as to what had
been urged .during the debate, that the object of
Gentlemen who were along with him an the Opposi-
tion side of the House, was merely a 'studied protrac-
tion of time in going through the measure : it there
was any blame at all on this pOint, it was to be im-
puted to*those who had used .a studied protraction
by putting off the meeting of Parliament till so un-
usually late a period.
Mr. W. WYNNE did not wish to put off the im-
portant debate that stood for the ptesent evening, but
he felt himself called on to express his regret, that
the Chancellor of the Etchequer still determined to
bring forward the Property Tax, against which such
a number of Petitions had been directed, so eatly as
Friday next. After what had been stated yesterday,
that numbers of meetings on this subject. would be
held, in the course of this week, it appeared to him
that the Right Honourable Gentleman ought not to
adopt a course which indicated a desire to shut 'the
'ears of the House against the sentiments of the coun-
try. The Right Honourable Genteman asked,
04 Have not the people had sulficieet time ? I stated
the proposed military establishment, A fortnight ago."
The fact, however, was. that those meetings were
fixed for the present week, proved that the people
could not be ready before. The new Sheriffs having
recently taken their situations—the country papers
being, in general, published only once a 'week—'-and
several other circumstances, rendered it difficult to
convene the Meetings earlier. The Hunourahle Gen-
tleman then defended the propriety, in a case like thi
present, when Ministersseemed determined to 'mei.
pitate a measure of great importance, of making use
of clime powers which the Constitution had ves.ed in
every Member of the House, to procure the necessary
delay. He lamented the tone and tempei which Mi. 1
nisters displayed in their observations i n the country.
Instead of conciliating the people, their language was
calculated to wound and irritate. A Noble Secre-
tary of State talked of an ignorant impatience of
taxation—The Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of
exaggerated distresses—and die Secretary at War
had tauntingly observed' that Gentlemen were in an
"<, economical mood." At no time was economy
more necessary, and yet no Administration ever ap-
peared so unwilling to adopt the principle. Lan•
gunge, such as he had repeated, ought to be avdi-
ded, since it tended to destroy the confidence that
ought to exist between the people and their Repre-
*coati yes.
Mr. ROSE said, the present discussion on the In-
come Tax was premature, since, until the House was
apprized of the necessities of the country, they could
not tell what they ought to provide tor. The Right
HOn. Gentleman then eulogised the Property ax,
as the most eff:ci na! that could by devised; and.ob-
served, that if it were taken off, and the proposed
establishment were voted, his Right Hon. Friend
would be obliged to propose other Taxes, that would
bear more heavily on the people. In conclusion he
recommended the calm and deliberate consideration
of the measure.
Mr. PONS'JNBY•-•`" I am sure I am disposed to
take the advice of the Right Honourable Geraleman.
and I would to Goo his speech was as persuasive
amongst his own friends, as it is with respect to nee.
1 am not willing to consider this .subject precipitately
—but so is not the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
(Hear, hear).—He would not give a day's delay to
the people on this question. Friday next is the day
be has appointed for voting this obnoxious tax,. if he
can induce the House to do it. This is what he calls
patient deliberation. I should be glad to know flow
I soon after the vote are the people to make their
repre-
sentations?-.-(Near, h:ar).—ls this what the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mi. hose) calls considering the
question patiently ? It is, iu tact, considering it ludi-
' crously. It is not a patient deliberation, but a delu-
I sort' shew of investigation, which can have no effect.
The object of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech,
As it appears to me, is to terrify the people from
raising their voice against this measure...—. 0, says
'he, i my Right Hon. Friend is a more ingenious man
than you think. The speeches you hear him make
on the floor, are not remarkable for vigour ; but try
hint as a tax.projector, and you will find that be can
far exceed all those who preceded him.' The doc-
trine of the Right Hon. Gentleman is this, if the pub-
lic differ from the Minister, on a point of taxation,
the litter, as a punishment, ought to inflict on then
burdens mote onerous than those froM which they
had escaped. The Right Hon. Gentleman would
censure such a doctem, if supported by another, and,
on reflection, he must condemn it in himselt."
Mr. ROSE explained,
Mr. BROUGHAM. convinced of the propriety,
in a Parliamentary point of view, of pursuing the
course of which he had given notice early in the
everting, expressed his determination to adhere to it.
... Mr. H. ADDINGTON defended the Chancellor
of the Exchequer from the charge of wishing to pre-
cipitate the measure that had occasioned so much
discussion. His. Right Hon. Friend had, on the very
first day of the Session, stated his inteution of pro-
posing its renewal. He denied that his Right Hon.
Friend had pledged himself not to propose that re-
newal. With respect to the expression of ‘4 ignorant
impatience," which had been attributed to Lord
Castlereagh, he observed, that neither he nor any in.
dividual on that side of the House, had heard his
Lordship make use of it—(hear, hear).—He believed
the expression was not used at all; certainly not in
the sense the Hon. Gentlemen opposite attached to it.
Mr. FREEMANTLE observed, that the Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer had not been accused of a'
wish to precipitate the measure, until after he had
refused to postpone its consideration beyond Friday
next; and it should be recollected, that there was a
precedent for-such a delay, since the last Property
Tax Act was not passed till the month of August.
lie telt justified in charging his Majesty's Ministers
with intending to stifle the voice of the people, by
urging this measure with the most indecent precipi.
Imp As to the fact of there being any idea of
making the measure a permanent one, on its intro-
duction last year, he would appeal to the recollection
of any man iii the House. whether such was the feel-
ing of the country upon Oat occasion. On the con-
trary, was it not most explicitly laid down as a War
ties? Had it been otherwise, he (Mr. Freers tale),
would not have supported the system then pursura
by his Majest)'s Government. lie repeated. that
he would take the sense 0/ Parliament di to the coo-

•
ftiielinii of this eontrace, in preform err to any doff-
, flip` owlaning of the words which composed the
Act itself. He 'mild not believe that the Right
FiOnourable Gentleman: opposite (the Chancell,:r
of the Exchequer) would condescend to rest
NS defence on verbal quibMilg. That Right
Hon. Gentleman knew, as well as he did, that the
tax was introduced by the new danger which arose,
and that it was not meant to survive the cause which
called it forth. (Ifethi.) If, indeed, lie felt it was
necessary in time of peace, why not have spoken
out? Did :My individtial of the majority which then
voted with the Minister, imagine that hp WAS con-
curring in a peace tax ? (Hear, hear.) He was per-
suaded no Member would hazard such All assertion.
(Hear).—Ttle Right Honourable Gentleman who
spoke last, denied that his Noble Colleague (Lord.
Castlereagh), had, at least in his hearing, charged
the people of England with holding 4, an ignorant
impotence fer a, relaxation of taxes." The Right
Honourable Gentleman. in disavowing that he had
heard such an observation, did not, however, pre-
sume to sat that it had not been made use of by the
Noble Lord. " But," continued Mr. Freer:l4We,
4. I will call on the colleagues of the Noble Secre-
tary, to deny the fact of his having made such an
Assertion. 1 declare, on my honour, that I heard
the words, and shall maintain the declaration to the
latest moment of my life." It was not-a hasty in-
digested expression, but a cool, premeditated phrase,
considered and matured by reflection, and used as a
taunt to the Opposition side of the House, who were
of course, in their turn, entitled to charge him with
i wanton expression.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was said by
a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Rose), that
the discussion into which they had gone was quite
premature. What I wete the people, when they im-
plored the House by petition, to be told by the oldest
and most experienced Member in the practice of Par-
liament, that they should delay their complaints until
the Act, to which they were directed, had received
the sanction of Parliament—(hear)—and then be told
Oh, it is too late to take the prayer of your peti-
tion into consideration, for we have passed the Bill?"
—(Heir, aid lavirer.)—That Right Hon. Member
had also said, the country had but a choice of diffi-
culties—for the peace establishment must be main-
tained, and there was no fitter means of upholding it
than the Property Tax.—[Mr. Rose here, across the
table, denied that he had enforced such a position.]
Mr. Freemantle repeated, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's argument either went thus far, or nothing ;
for he affirmed that if the means required were not
forthcoming to meet the peace expenditure, they must
be drawn from the public by another, and perhaps a
more grievous system of taxation.—(Hear, hear.)—
This was a happy tone of conciliation for the country
to receive after its extraordinary and patriotic exer-
tions in the late arduous contest. This was the grate-
ful return for its unexampled firmness and suffering :
that is, that during profound peace, the people
should have to pay 070,000,000 in taxes, an amount
only 06,000,000 short of the most expensive war ex-
penditure during the previous period. The Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) bad stated, that
Mr. Pitt uniformly deplored the peace establishment
to which he had submitted in the year 1793. Now
he (Mr. Freemantle) had heard from persons who
were equally acquainted with Mr. Pitt, that he always
looked with pleasure and satisfaction to that period
of his public life, and that it was only in the year
1793 (though the establishment subsisted since 1786),
the last year of the peace, and when it was unexpec-
tedly interrupted by the French declaration of war,
that in a moment of sudden difficulty Mr. Pitt was
said to have lamented the casual occurrence, but not
to disclaim the high principle of his economical ar-
rangement. It wat singular that when the Right
Honourable Gentleman described- the present peace
establishment as the most economical which he had
seen, he should have overlooked the former peace
estimate of Mr. Pitt, to which he had been a party.
The Honourable Gentleman concluded, by declaring
that, on the present occasion, the people were bound
to put every difficulty in the way of the progress of
this question, and that no man ought to be called
factious who interposed to defeat this precipitancy.
Mr. ROSE explained.
Lord BINNING observed, that the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite were so much practised in the'
trade of casting imputations, that the principles and
conduct which they now unfolded were by no means
novels be would not, therefore, appeal to their can-,
dour when he addressed them. The Hon. Member
had taxed the recollection of the House to admit that
a pledge was last year given that the Income Tax
was not to be renewed after the war. Now he (Lord
binning). had no recollection of such a pledge; en
die contrary, there were those who thought the tem-
porary continuance of the Tax a wise and right mea-
sure. As to the charge of stifling the public voice,
that was the old accusation. How had. the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer deserved it ? A mouth had
already passed since he had given an intimation of
his intention ; and he only meant on Friday to intro-
duce a Resolution in the Ways and Means upoa the
subject. From the avowed determination of Gentle-
men oppositO, who meant to use every means of pro-
tracting the consideration; it was evident that the.
public, so far from being hurried into the question,
would have an opportunity of discussing it ten times
over, while it would be pending in that House. -It
was also a little hard that Gentlemen at his side of
House would not be allowed the opportunity of ex-
plaining their own meaning. His Right Honourable
Friend (Mr. Rose) had been completely misrepresen;
ted in the observations which he had made.

Mr. WYNNE, in explanation, observed, that the
Noble Lord, when he talked of the opportunity which
the people would have of discussing this subject,
seemed to have overlooked the fact, that when a re-
solution once passed the Committee, it was contrary
to the rules of Parliament to receive a petition against
it—(Near.)—All the proceedings of their constitu-
ents in the country, which were known to be in a
state of active forwardness, would therefore arrive
too late, if the present intention of Ministers was
persevered in.
Lord BINNING explained.
Mr. BARING observed, that the Right Honour-
able Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) had expressed `his intention to enter fully
upt.ai the subject, and all he (Mr. Baring) wanted,
was, that the counts y should have 'the same advan-
tage—(Near).—The Right Honourable Gentleman
oitposite had midi. that if we voted this peace este-

blistinstet. vtr Mast hare money forks support—a' d
yet.. on the aameobreath. he cuntende.i, taat t' e
was nu conoection betwi-eu the coosideration oft e
present Estimates sad the Property Tax.—(Aoir)—
; Suppose even diet the necessity of this establishment
were made out, it would not follow that the Property
Tax would he the proper way of upholding it. But,
at all events, what inconvenience cauld arise from a
delay of a few days, to allow the country petiti .ns to
be sent up. The tax ws an annuli one, and in the
short interval of a limited postponement, it was ion.
possible the revenue could be affected. Oqe reesou
for the progressive discussion of this important ques-
tion was. dial information hid daily grown nut of
mode.of proceeding. We were, for instanctodlret
told this day, that in the law Act the words a sad no
longer" were not to be found, and that it was only
meant to propose the continuance of the tax f.w two
years, although it was ischnitted to be a sort of contin-
gent relationship to other events ; that is, the tint
proposition was a sort of entering wedge to pave
the way for a future measure. (Hear, isa,
It was useless to talk of the public feeling being exag-
gerated, when the whole voice of the country was
raised against the tax—when the agricultural interest
proclaimed its oppression—when the commercial in-
terest was equally obnoxious to it—and• when per.
sous exercising
.trades and professions, loudly pro.
tested against the inquisition which it bad establish.
ed.—lf Ministers were competent to explain away
any of the odious appendages of this Act. why
not refer its provisions to a Committee ? They would
then see, from a view of its operation, what had been
its grievous and baneful appendages. After severely
animadverting on the burden of the Property Till, he
repeated that there was no pretext furhurry in this ques-
tion, and.concluded by denying the existence of that in-
creased wealth of which the country was said to be pos-
sessed. If Ministers had taken but a short tour iir the
country, they would have had an opportunity of unde-
ceiving themselves on this point. He was Afraid,
however, that their journies were confined to occa-
sional trips to Brighton, from which place they
doubtless returned full of those ideas of of lueuce and
luxury which engendered the general mass of na-
tional wealth which was scattered through their
speeches—(hear, and laughter.)
Mr. WALLACE admitted, that if a resolution
were passed, Petitions could not be subsequently re-
ceived ; but there were other ways open to the Peti-
tioners, by whish they could produce the same con-
stitutional effect. Advertising and giving publicity
to those meetings, together .with the otoer means
which were open of communicating with their Re.
presentatives, would answer an equ el purpose. He
took this opportunity of stating, that he recollected
no such pledge of his Right Hon. Friend (the Chen.
cellor of the Exchequer), as that which hod been
alluded to. It was evident, that if the Preperty Tex'
WAS abandoned. another, and probably a 11101 C op-
pressive one, would be substituted in its place.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH maintained. that
all the arguments used to show that the Pe..ce Esta-
blishment mil the Property Tax were quite distinct
topics. only served • to establish the closer identity
between both. It was now plainly hinted, that we
must have the Income Tax, or worse. The Right
Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Rose) had paid a tribute to
the spirit Of the people, but his sole aim was, that
this spirit should be withheld until it could be
wholilt unavailing. We may, indeed. sometimes
refuse to abide by the wishes of the people, but he
never beard that we should refuse to inquire into
their opinions. Bat all the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman wanted was, that Parliament should stand
pledged to the question.—[[here Mr Rose denied
that he had such an object in view.] —Then see
what language he has introduced. The whole of the
country is in motion, and the
.petitions may he ex-
pected in seven or eight drys—in this state of thiags
the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes a reso-
lution for next Friday, and thereby excludes the
constitutional expression, of pebliu feeling.—(hear )
After that time. no means which the petitioners
could devise would be operative. for then the House
might possibly stand pledged to the principle of the
Bill ; and yet the people were told that no attempt
was made to stifle their voice, or suppress their Con-
stitutional privileges ! The will of the Minister
seemed every thing in such a system. Sir James
then alluded to the strange circumstance that none of
the Gentlemen opposite had heard the Noble Secre.
tary's contemptuous expression of the popular anxiety
for a relaxation of taxes. He (Sir James) bad often
heard that Members were 'obliged to resign their op!.
aims to Ministers on certain occasions, but this was
• the first time he had ever observed an official deaf.
nest among the Gentlemen of the Treasury Bench,
or that he understood the duties of official allegiance
required, in addition to their other sacrifices, the fur.
render of their external senses.
Mr. PRESTON explained. The petition was that
brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table.
Altilif KITIMAT/CS.
Lord PALMBILSTON moved the Order of the Day
for resuming the debate of yesterday ; and on the
question being put from the Chair,
Mr. J. P. GRANT considered the present question
as one of the greatest importance which could pos.
ably come before the House. Gentlemen were now
called on to vote that, which, if agreed to, would be
to give their' sanction to an attempt to introduce a
Military Government into this country in the place
of our present Constitution. He, for one, could
never agree so such a vote. The Noble Lord had
said, we should want so mate/ men in one place, and
so many in another. The Noble Lord might say so;
but he (Mr. Grant) would hear no man on such a
subject—(alaue)—Hon. and Right Hon. Gentlemen
might laugh; but he would never heat aot isia.i
who should argue that there was a necessity for our
maintaining a.Standing Army, during a tone of pro-
found Peace, of 150,000 men.—(Hear.)._-Tnere
never had been, on any former occasion, a Peace
Ehtablishrrient of more thao 50,000 men; and he
c..uld not look without alarm at an attempt to
crease it threefold. He hail the greatest conli, ,•:e,
and the highest opinion of the honour of the officers
who commanded this army; but he could not con.
sent to put the liberties of the country in the power
of any class of melt or Ministers whatever. It
votes now asked were agreed to, it would form a
precedent for keeping up such an armed force as
would render the Crown independent ut soy co.urule
aud the House ~t Commons might, at no very diee
cant period, find itself the Repeeseasestve 11.4 et a