Star.
London, England, 1819-02-05 00:00:00

Is'

_
e - powers should
be vested in the Duke of York, which l
. been adopted in the former case, which might be by the Bill of 1811 had been confided to her late'
considered a fit precedent, particularly as it was the . Majesty. He was sure there could be no difference!
conise most consistent with fairness to an Honour- . of opinion as to the fitness of the person to whom
:tole Mentber not then pre:Rl% ! the Bill now before the House entrusted these powers
The SPEAKER said, he understood that the act —(Hear, hear, hear.)—He intended to propose that
complained of had occurred since the last Election. this Bill should be read a second time this evening.
Sir ROBERT WILSON said, it was subsequent It was founded on the principle that there was no
to the late General Election. Ile was happy to con- individual within the circle of the Royal Family, to
cur in what had fillets from the Chair, and from tLe whom the discharge of the peculiar duties mentioned-
Noble Lord opposite, and theiefore moved—That in this Bill, could be so fitly entrusted as to his Royal
the lion. Wyndham Quin be ordered to attend in his Highness the Duke of York—( Hear, hear, hear.j—
place this day duce weeks. It was his intention to propose, that the part of the
Mr. W. WYNN thought " eight days," should be Prince Regent's Speech which alluded to the Wind-
substituted for " three weeks." sor Establishment, should be referred to a Select
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, his object was, that Cominittee. The subject being one of detail, as well
there might be as little delay as possible. Perhaps as of very great delicacy, and much information
the Honourable Gentleman was on his Way to town. being required to form a judgment upon it, that in-
Let eight days be substituted, and, if not then present, forniatton could only be obtained through a Corn-
th' House would probably excuse him, and extend mittee, which he should that night propose to nomi-
the time:—(llear, hear.) nate. He did not propose that night to take a vote
Sir ROBERT WILSON then moved that the llon. on the merits of the question ; but meant to put the
Wyndham Quin be ordered to attend the House, in House in possession of the question itself; and it re-
his place this day sennight..—(7arried nitanimously rained for hint (Lord C.) then to state the nature of
NORTHERN- CIRCUITS. ~ the proceedings he n'teant to offer to the considera-
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR rose, pursuant to his notice, Lion of the House. He did not mean to call upon
to move that the Assizes should be held twice a year the House for any new grant of money to the Crown
in the four Northern Counties. At the subject had —but on the contrary to divest the Crown of those
been several times discussed last year, there was no funds which already belonged to the Establishment,
occasion for him to take up the time of the House on and to apply to Parliament to make such deductions
this occasion, especially as time was little or ho dif- in the Establishment •at Windsor as could not take
Imam of opinion on the subject. He was happy to place without its sanction. His proposition then
state, dint his Majesty's Ministers had already taken would go to enable the Crown to divest itself of the
some considerable steps to accomplish the object in sum he should mention, and place the same in the
view. He then moved that an Address be presented consolidated fund, so as to be applied to the exigencies
to the Prince Regent, praying that measures might of the State. Whatever surplus remained in this
be adopted for holding Assizes twice a year in the part of the Civil List at the end of the year, should
four Northern Counties, and that tl:e House would go to the consolidated fund ; but as to the savings
make good any expenses incurred for that purpose. that should be made in oter branches of the Civil
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL assured the House Lis:, they might he applied to certain uses connected
that the subject had been under the anxious conside, with the Household, whenever it should be deemed
ration of his Majesty's Government, and that an ar- necessary. It was, however, the wish of his Royal
rangement was nsay in progress for accomplishing the Highness, that whatever surplus could he spared
desirable object mentioned in the Address. from the Civil List, should be applied to the exigen-
Mr. DENMAN expressed much surprise that the cies of the State. A grant of £lOO,OOO a-year had
House was now, for the first time, informed that the been made to the King for his life ; and whatever
subject was under the consideration of Government. saving accrued from that sum was applicable to the
It was nearly twelve months since the Report of the wants of the Treasury. A Parliamentary proceed-
Committee on this subject had been presented. At ing, however, would be necessary to transfer such
the last Assi4es, the four Northern Counties had pe- sums to the uses of the public ; for without such
titioned to be placed on the same footing as to the proceeding, the saving of £58,000 which was now
administration of justice with the other parts of the the subject of his Royal Highness's Message, would
kingdom. He was very happy to agree to the pre- go to the Civil List. Parliament then was not ap-
sent motion, especially as he understood that the plied to for a new grant of money, but for its autho-
number of Judges was not to be increased. The City to divest the Crown of this sum ; and he hoped
Honourable and Learned Member, after some oh. the House would consider this as an earnest desire on
nervations on the evils of increasing the number of the part of the Crown to co-operate with Parliament
Judges, expressed a hope that the object mentioned in supporting the exigencies of the country. He
in the Address would be speedily accomplished. should now proceed to the general arrangement he
Lord CASTLEREAGH repelled the charge of proposed to lay down. Out of the sum which con •
s upineness on the part of Government as to this ques- ginned the Windsor Establishment, he proposed that
tion. Such bad not by any means been the character the sum of £lO,OOO be appropriated to the expense
of their conduct. It was no wonder that Govern- attending the custody of his Majesty, and to be un-
ment had not yet fixed upon any plan, when it was der the management of the Duke of York. If Par-
considered that the Honourable Mover of the Ad- hanient gave his Royal Highness the high authority
dress, and the nonourable and Learned Member in question, it would be necessary also to allow him
who spoke last, differed in opinion as to the propriety the means of defraying the expenses attendant upon
of increasing the number of Judges. it. He should now come to the Windsor Establish-
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, if he had thought any ment, comprising the £lOO,OOO granted to the King,
discussion was to have taken place on this subject,he and the £58,000 which censtituted the income of the
would have entered into it fully.—Motion agreed to. King: Out of this sum there would eventually be
ROYAL MESSAGE. a saving of £lOB,OOO, subject to the necessity of
Lord CASTLEREAGH appeared at the Bar, and making provision for certain parts of the Royal Fa-
delivered a Message from his Royal Highness the roily. When the £58,000 which belonged to the
Prince Regent, which was read by the Speaker, and Queen was taken away, there was £lOO,OOO which
was as follows : was hitherto applicable to the Establishment of the
" Groans, P. ll.—The Prince Regent, acting in the name inn . This Establishment he tiroposed to reduce
M
and on the behalf of his aj.:ity, acquaints the anise of Corn- ''"
mous, that the sum of 58;W/. per annum, 'which, in the din- to 40,000, which should in future constitute the
tribution of his Majesty's Civil List Revenue, was appropriated Windsor Establishment. A sum Of £25,000 was
to the maintenance of the Establishment, and to the support of also to be applied to a provision for the servants ;
the honour and dignity of the queen, having, by the lamented and then the saving from the whole of the present
demise of her Majesty, become disposable by his Royal High-
W. LI Establishmentl2lsB,ooo, would be ei h
iit or, g ty-
ess fur the general purpne:s of the Civil List, the Pi ince lie-
;ent places this sum at the dispokal of Parliament. lle thinks three thousand pounds. But after the annuities of
it at the same time hicumbeLt upon him to state, that there •C'25,000, allowed to servants, should fall in, the
exists certain claims upon a part .if this saving, which he recoan- whole saving would then amount to £108,000.
mends to the justice and liberality of the I louse of Commons : ~.
were
to be carried to the Civil List, but
1
These claims are founded on the filitil.lll services of the persons Ile savings
who formed the svarate EstahlishmeDt of her late Majesty, and lie could not have a less revenue than 50,0001. for
are limited to those services. the future Windsor Establishment. While the late
The Prince Regent is satisfied that he may confidently rely ijueen continued at the head of the Establishment,
on the loyal attachment of the (louse of Commons to enable 7'
there was a great difficulty in attempting to make
him, upon the reduction of that Establishment, to grant to the
several individuals belonging to it, such allowances as it has any reduction in it. Even those Gentlemen who
been usual for the Crown to bestow on former occasions when were anxious to promote plans of economy in that
the Royal Family has been visited with a similar affliction." House, saw that such a difficulty existed. Indeed,
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he meant first to during the lice-time cf the Queen no material saving
propose an Address in answer to this gracious Mes- could be made. She was entitled to her own income
sage. He would afterwards move, that the Message of 58,0001. and if the King had died, she, as Queen
be taken into consideration, and then that it be re- Dowager, would, by law, have been entitled to an
tarred to a Committee of the whole House, *.o which income of 10000/. How, then, could any saving
also he meant to move, that the part of the Speech have been made in an Establishment which, for the
of the Lords Commissioneis, touching the demise of
King and Queen, amounted to 58,000/. The whole
her late Majesty, should also be referred. lie then question of saving then resolved itself into a question
Moved, that an humble Address be presented to his as to the retirement of State servants, the saving
Royal Highness, stating,
'that the House had re-
caused by which would not amount to 6000/.
ceived his Royal Highness s gracious Message, and Being now prepared to recommend that a reduction
would proceed to take tho same into immediate con- should take place in the Windsor Establishment, he
"sideration.—The Motion was agreed to. would explain why it had not been done before. The
wI N DSO R EsTBLISIIMENT. Parliament certainly had in contemplation the pro-
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved, that that part of bability of the Kings not being able ever to reeovey ;
the Lords Commissioners Speech at the opening of but they had now the painful confirmation of many
the Session, which related to the demise of her Ma- years, that there was not the slightest hope of such
jesty, be read.—The Clerk then read the Message. an event taking place. An idea, however, prevailed,
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the House had that his Majesty might experience a partial reco-
already carried to the Throne their deep and heartfelt very—and it would be a most melancholy thing. to
ctesdolence on the melancholy demise of her Majesty. think that on such an occasion he should not find
It now remained for them to enter upon the other himself surrounded by these servants and officers of
duties which had arisen out of that sad event. But State to whom he had been accustomed. The reduc-
as it had not been his lot to be present on the former tion, therefore, was never proposed, and it would have
occasion, he trusted he might be ailowed to take this been painful to the feelings of her Majesty to agi-
opportunity of expressing the deep sense which he aate a question of the kind while she lived—but now
feir of the services which had been rendered by her a line might be drawn between what was due to pub-
late Majesty to the State, during the protracted pe- lic economy, and the feelings of respect and venera-
eiod of 57 years in which she had shared the throne Lion which must be entertained for the Royal Fa-
of our revered. Monarch. The example of unaffected mily. In doing this, a reference might be had to
piety ma. of unostentatious oharity which had been the domestic habits of his Majesty. There were many
afforded by her Majesty, must long continue to ope- officers belonging to his town Establishment who
rate very favourably on the morals of this great coun- never had occasion to perform any duty about his
try—(flear, hear.)—lt remained for him to enter person at Windsor ; and therefore a saving might be
upon the other questions which must engage the at- made by the removal of those who had not been lit
tention of the House. The subject naturally divided the habit of attending him there. The Queen, as
itself into two branches-Ist, What provision was etsitos of the King, had no power to remove these.
necessary for the care of his Majesty's person ? and, The officers he should now propose to be removed
2i}y, Those measures arising from the demise of her I were, the Vice-Chamberlain, the Master of the Robes,
Majesty, and the changes which must take place in the four Lords of the Bedchamber, and the four
the Royal Establishment. As to the first branch, a Grooms of the Bedchamber. The saving occasioned
Bill had been brought from the other HoUse, and :by their removal would be 59981. The Lords orthe
wadi now ou the table, which directed that those i • Bedchamber never attended at Windsor ; but, while.

the salaries of these were to be taken away, they still
expressed a wish that they might not be precluded
from continuing in the service of his Majesty, by
holding their appointments merely as honorary ones.'
It was necessary that one high officer of responsibi- •
lity should be still about the person of the King ;
and for that purpose he proposed to retain the Groom
of the Stole, and also the six Equerries, who were
always at ,Windser. He now wished to observe,
that the Queeir's income of 513,000/. was 'a part of
`the Civil List, which the Crown might apply to any
other part of the Establishment. But it was the
feeling of the Prince Regent, that this sum should
be left at the discretion of Parliament. He should
propose to give to all the servants of the late Queen
their salaries during their lives; and there were pre-
cedents to justify a measure of this kind. Their sa-
laries did not, on an average, exceed one half of
their emoluments ; therefore, acting on former pre
cedents, he would strike a proportion between the
one and the other, in settling the annuities they were
to receive. It would also be necessary to make some
provision for those servants who belonged to the
King, although there was no precedent for stieh
thing. There was no other mode of protecting those
persons against the wants to which they must be ex-
posed, in case of losing their places. Whatever might
be the wish of the Pnnce Regent, it would not be
possible for him to admit into his service all those
who were no longer wanted about the Establishment
of his Majesty. Therefore, as by one operation, a
considerable number of servants were to be removed
from the Crown, he hoped that hereafter the Pailia-
ment would devise some provision for them, however
such a measure might be contrary to precedent,
The utmost sum that would be sufficient to satisfy
every claim, and which would satisfy his Majesty's
'feelings were he now to recover, would not be greater
than eight or 10,000/. If lie omitted any thing in
his detail, he hoped the Right Honourable Gentle-
man opposite would set him right. The whole of
the expenses, including the provision for servants,
and all subordinate attendants were comprehended,
the House would see, is the sum of 50,000/. In
order to arrive at a specific arrangement, in this in-
stance, which would embrace a proper degree of at-
tention to the care and custody of his Majesty's Per-
son, as well as a proper attention to the necessity of
an economical administration of the public property,
much labour and deliberation were required—( Hear,
hear).—The result of those deliberations was now
laid before the House, and according to the opinions
of those who had the honour to submit it to the con-
sideration of Parliament, it was sanctioned by every.
consideration drat should prevail upon the occasion,
as well as by every precedent that cduld be traced
out upon record—( Hear, hear).—His Lordship stated
that he would mos e for a Select Committee, before
whom the Estimates of the Establishment were to
be laid on the following 'I hursday. The reasons far
nominating this Committee by ballot were sufficiently
apparent, and required, he trusted, very little ergs-
rnent to support them. He held in his hand a list
of these names, which he should propose to the House
for its adoption. His Lordship proceeded to read
the names, among which were the following :
Mr. Brougham, Mr. Bankes, Hon. W. Limb, Mr. Lllackturne,
Mr. S. Wortley, Mr. Long Wellesley. the Solicitor-General, &e.
His Lordship concluded, by moving, that the House
do resolve itself into a Committee of the %%hole House,
to-morrow, to take the Message into consi•teration.
Mr. LONG WELLESLEY observed, that he had
no objection to reduction in any shape; but in the
particular instance in which the House was called
upon to interfere, he should say, that a particular
and distinct principle of economy should operate.
Fully agreeing with the necessity of affording to his
Majesty the proper degree of splendour, he would
merely ask, Was it reasoiiable that the Duke of York
should receive the emolument which was appropria-
ted to her late Majesty as the castes pep sow, upon
the ground that she had many expenses to encounter
in the discharge of her duty, peculiar to her station
and years ? This was not a question, perhaps, of su
much importance. The country would think but
little of a small advance above the mere necessities
of the occasion, provided there was a distinct state-
ment of what the expenses were—(Hear, brae.) But
the next question he had to put was one of import-
ance—namely, Was the Duke of York, as curios per-
sona, still to retain his situation as Commander-in-
Chief?---(Hear, hear, hear.) The time was now arri-
ved when the country should look with jealousy to
any arrangement which enabled an individual so
nearly allied to the Crown to hold two situations of
such important trust, contrary to all precedent. In
adverting to this topic, he must express his perfect
conviction that the character of the Duke of York
was calculated, as much as that of any other indivi-
dual in the country, to remove every injurious sur-
mise and apprehension. That the proposition sub-
mitted to the House carried with it a disposition to
general reduction, he did not deny; but it Ministers
held it out as an evidence of great economy on their
part, he begged leave totally to dissent from their
opinion. The pursuit of an economical course in the
administration of our affairs, as an Honourable Gen-
tleman had stated on a former occasion, required
only common sense and honesty. For his part, he
felt anxious for reduction; but he could not say that
he was in possession of much common sense or much
common honesty—(mitch Taughter.) There were
some, to be sure, who thought sense and honesty
were peculiar to a certain class of persons ; for .his
part,- he believed they were mistaken who imagined
all sense and honesty were confined to any particular
side of that House (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Wil-
ling as he was to give full credit to the claims of
every individual, he only asked for himself the repu-
tation of a fair and ordinary quantity of both—
(Hear, hear, hear.) These were his opinions, and he
thought it his duty to express them. He heartily
gave his support to every system for reducing the
public expenditure, at the sami:ime that he abstained
from airy participation in the feelings of party.
Lord CASTLEREAGH, in reply to the question''
of his Honourable Friend, observed, that. he was yet
to learn what incompatibility there was in the office of
Commander-in-Chief with the appointment of eusios
persona of the King, which it was proposed to confer
upon the Duke of fork. He believed, indeed, that
he could scarcely communicate a more melancholy
piece of' intelligence to the House and the country,
than that the Duke of York was about to remove
from the office of Commander-ineChief el t!!c Army.
• (Mar, hepr.) That he, why had pirformed the du-

from
y
himself,any
intention
.tion which he had so long and so creditably
(Near, hear, hear.)
Mr. L. WELLESLEY disclaimed the slight
tention of expressing any di!xespect for his
Highness the Duke of York, for whom he feat,t,;';
utmost deference, knowing his Royal Iliebne
he did, to present a signal exampleeminent
in a great Prince.
Mr. TIERNEY rose and said, that whate7eraiti
firth
be the result of the evening's discass'
he wished that that result should go
.h tom
world bearing upon it the stamp of a free ter,
lelte
and deliberate inqui,y. lloacyirable Gentlo. skt
who spoke last appeared to him to have adon:ed
mistaken view of the question. He would not 'Olio.;
him in this view, but he would gate to the Ps,e
how he felt upon the occasion. By the death of!.c.
Majesty, the whole arrangement was done airari
the late Establishment—(hear, hear). A new arrr:-„
ment was now to take place, and the question
what was to be the expense of that new arrangenoa
—(hear, hear)? The expenses of the EstahliSleneo
were not yet appropriated—they were still -the pm,
petty of that House—(hear, hear). It was not, ti:ee
fore. the proper way of proceeding to begin by
we will set about reducing, when we have measured.
our resources. He would place economy first, ay
the resources second. It was perfectly agreeable%
I his wishes to meet the subject with all that gravity
and respect which the Noble Lord oppo,ite seemed
so anxious to inculcate, and with that feelitz j
should be unwilling to look back upon
already passed when the Windsor Establishn:ent .
brought under consideration at a former period. llr
found it necessary, however, to refer to the re.,
rangement with regard to the Lord and G.
the Bedchamber. The sum swallowed up by L.
Officers was no less than £43,000. This sum sa
now, in effect, admitted by Ministers' acts to haw
been absolutely thrown away ; and he was the more
entitled to say this, because when he had objected,is
1812, to the creation of these offices, he had bees
assailed with insinuations of the most unworthy L..
'tore. One said he was thus starting objections to
order to gratify an habitual contrariety of dispcsi:os
—another, that he was running after a little papilla.
rity. Language of this nature was thrown in his face
upon that occasiaa, as almost upon every other: tut
his experience in that House had now sufficice4lF
hardened him against such attacks. He spoLl::s
opinions in the midst of all opposition, and he rejeitt!
that be had lived to see the day when his Maestri
Ministers had come forward to proclaim, by t:;:'
acts, the justness of those opinions, which they Is
censured with so much severity—(hear, hear).
Lords of the Bedchamber had very little to &
they never spoke to or conversed with his Ilaiest*
at all. It was praise-worthy in them to offer, at'
period of their services, a gratuitous performance
their functions in fuoite. No doubt this spoke
generosity; but when they were invested with ;
office originally, why did they not see the superti
of their services'—Was not their generosity as •
then as now ?—( Llear, hear, and laughter.
A proposition had been made, that the same
of the Bedchamber would answer for the •

of his Majesty and those of the Prince Regent ;11.
the fair principle, that where so little was to dr by
these Officers at the two residences of the Royal Per.
conages, the same individuals could perform it, with.
out much inconvenience to any quarter.—(llK,l
hear.) But the proposition was rejected ; his Ma-
jesty, in his afflictions, could not do without those
favourite Lords exclusively to himself. What sas
the consequence? Those very same Lords were nre
turned adrift. They 7.-ele very hardly dealt
indeed.—(Henr, hfir.) Ilad they remained with its
Itoyal Highness the Prince Regent, they would hat
their offices to the good. No one would, study,
pretend that this proceeding was at all grateful is
his Majesty.—(lfenr, hear.) With regard to tae
0,000 for the Duke of York, he would lay it dm;
tiva of all, that whatever expenses the Crotosprr:oLs
was put to in the discharge of his duties, they OUT'
to be furnished by the public. This was just.
it the question was put, " Will you give £lO'OJ
the Duke of York ?" he would answer, " Shew '
what for ?" fle was justified in this demand;
cause, wh'n it was put formerly in the case of
Majesty, the Minister explained, that so mut..
was wanted for travelling expenses, and for all ,
other necessaries incidental to die a6e and static•.
that venerable Person. Willing as he was to at:end
these peculiar wants, he thought that sum too much
her. Now believing that the Royal Duke ar
was the properest person in the Kingdom fcr the
trust confided to him, he would not oppose
grant that was necessary to him for the fuil
of his duty. Ile (Mr. Tierney) would trea: itis
jesty liberally, and if 500,0001. could in any w,
contribute to his comforts or recovery, he in
gladly vote for that sum—( Hear, hear).—But.
'duty to the public required that he should not it'
Vance a single sixpence of their money, unto
[knew what it was for. The Windsor Establish'

was so wrapt up in 108,000/. 109,000/. and LiV:ti
that he found tt difficult to compreLend chat rs
the precise sum stated by the Minister. Takings
to be 50000/. he could not see how it was at z'ir
cessary to the venerable Sovereign of these czur
—( Hear, hear).—His Majesty was incapable of
versation ; in fact, the prohibiting; of his Mejii..
attendants embraced every sort of conversation.
had no turn for show, and was he to be broatth,
fore that llouse as an object requiring an esrea'!,
establishment ?—( Hear, hear).—lp what Wei t'
enormous sum to go? How was it.to be Ji4l/044..'
But them was a Committee to be appointed to ;o.'
Into these details. He knew there seas; but WI
not thank the Noble Lord for this act of laves:
much as he thanked the late general Election- 3;
be thought that the sort of disposition manifested!
the Electors in general, had a greater elute in
fluencing the Noble Lord's determination, than.
new lights upon the subject of frugality. Put ;I
was one thing with which the Committee had hod',
to do, namely the neat of. the Establishmen!.
them measure the details as they •pleaseip hut
ground-work, the leading point, from which all
other p.o is were to take Lick proportion,
solely to the choice of that liouse,(Hear, her
lie knew rothin; of the residents at Winasor.
cei:t si' Equemes? auJ they, it ippeal'J.

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