The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-01-04 00:00:00

conducive to the public welfare than in the furtherance of
this object. Resolved, therefore, that the Education Com-
mittee be requested to take this subject into consideration,
and to report to the council in what parts of the town schools
are required, especially infant schools to recommend situations
for the same, and to obtain estimates of the cost of such
buildings."
I should wish to make an observation with respect to what
I stated; I don't think it very creditable for any person to
say that the system as at present carried on here induces
deceit on the part of the persons who further those views.
I think that is very improper language; whether you may
call it gentlemanly or not I don't know. I perhaps don't
understand what is gentlemanlike. (A laugh.)
Mr. Councillor PLATT, and Mr. Councillor JORDAN each
rose to second the resolution, and both addressed the chair at
the same time, neither giving way. " I beg to second the
resolution," said Mr. Platt. " I have very great pleasure in
seconding the resolution" said Mr.4Jordan. " Hardly a day
but the children of poor parents are scalded or burned"—
said Mr. Platt. " Like to see the schools established"—Mr.
Jordan's voice was heard to say, " From want of proper care
being taken of them"—concluded Mr. Platt." —in each ward
of the town," finished Mr. Jordan; and both gentlemen then
siinultaneously'sat down, amidst loud laughter.
The MAYOR having read the resolution,
Mr. Councillor HoncsoN rose to make a few observations
regarding the resolution. He said—l do so the more readily
because I hope by the very few observations that 1 shall make,
that I shall convince the gentleman who brought forward
this resolution that it was not in the slightest degree calling
for the warm and indignant feeling he has shown, which
think has been very ill placed. I think he might have waited
to see if what he brought forward was likely to excite any
further opposition. So far as I can judge, with a little fur-
ther addition, which I cannot think any one will object to,
those who generally agree with me cannot but most cordially
unite in tbo expression of this resolution. Surely no man
who knows anything of the conduct of those gentlemen with
whom I have the pleasure of associating,—the clergymen of
the Church of England, can possibly impute to them any
wish to withhold education from the people. (Hear.) I can
appeal to the mover of the resolution himself, if he can show
any similar example, even in this body, of a desire for the
education of the people, by the sacrifice of their own inte-
rests. It is one thing to give money out of the public purse
and another out of one's own private purse; and it is a most
unwarrantable and unauthorised feeling so to speak of the
clergy, or to speak of them as not allowed to impart education.
But, sir, what is the meaning of education? (Hear.) What
is the basis of education? (Hear, hear.) Does that gentle-
man mean to say, that, because in this extended empire, ex-
tending over India, over people of various denominations—
does he mean to say, that, for the contrivances of roan he is
to reject at his pleasure any part or portion of the only sure
foundation on which education can stand; does he mean to
tell us that he of his wisdom can at any time abstract certain
portiOns of the word of God—for what is the Bible—(a laugh)
—but the revealed word of God; and does be mean to tell us
that'he or any set of men can take on themselves to be wiser
than God,--(a laugh, and " hear" from Mr. Jordan)—and
say we will withhold part of that which He has not withheld;
does he mean to say that he can convey moral and religious
instruction without the blessing of God resting upon it?
Mr. Councillor RATHBONE.—Who is the gentleman ad-
dressing,, because really he is out of all order?
Mr. Councillor D. HooGsoN.—l am perfectly in order,
sir.

The MAYOR.—There is nothing disorderly
Mr. Alderman EARLS.-1 should wish to ask to whom the
gentleman alludes ?
The M A YOR. 1 have no doubt he will state.
Mr. Councillor D. HoDesoN.—l have no doubt I am per-
fectly in order.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—We shall perhaps come to the
meaning by and by.
Mr. Couucillor D. HoDGsoN.—I think the mover of the
resolution went with great freedom to make reflections on per-
son's characters, far above his attack. But Ido think this is
an unseasonable interruption. I mean merely to say that I
do think without the foundation of the scripture, the whole
scripture, and an unrestricted and free use of it, that all
your education will be vain—that you build on the sand, and
that destruction awaits upon the superstructure. I therefore
will simply read what 1 hope will at once be admitted, as a
proper instruction to the committee to whom these resolu-
tions are to be submitted.
The MAyon.—Do you move it as an amendment?
Mr. Councillor D. HonesoN.—No; us an instruction.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—It must be as an amendment. I
won't admit it.
The M A YoR —I should think that the committee must first
be appointed, before any instruction can be given.
Mr. Councillor D. lionGsoN.—Then I mention that I
mean to move that the following be an instruction to the
committee if it shall be appointee.
. " That it be an instruction to the committee to consider
and report on the necessity of introducing into the schools
contemplated, a tree, open, and unrestricted system of scrip-
ture education, as that alone entitled to the support of
christian men."
The MAVOR.—Then I presume there will be no objection
to the passing of this resolution of Mr. Earle in the first
place, and Mr. Hodgson will then have the opportunity of
moving his instruction.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—I believe I have a right of reply?
The MAYoa said Mr. Earle would reply after Mr. Hodg-
son had moved his instruction.
Mr. Councillor HoDGSON was about to move his instruc-
tion, when
The MAYOR said, he thought the town-clerk had suggested
that to proceed at once to pass the resolutions before Mr.
Earle had an opportunity of replying to the speech of Mr.
Hodgson would be irregular. The correct course would be for
Mr. Earle now to reply to Mr. Hodgson, and afterwards have
an opportunity of expressing. his opinion on this instruction.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—TO reply, means opposition ;
there is no opposition.
Mr. Councillor GLADSTONE seconded the instruction.
Mr. Councillor RATHBoNE.—Mr. Mayor, I can have no
possible objection to that instruction, provided it does not
imply that that unrestricted education is not given already.
That it has been in those schools, I now, in my place, as a
man and a Christian, assert. And, therefore, it is a work of
supererogation. And on understanding that to be introduced
I have no objection, on the contiary, I support that resolu-
tion, it being understood that it does not infer that that mode
of instruction has not been in the schools already.
Mr. Councillor JORDAN.—I do think it does imply a cen-
t/7(7,04e committee; that the gentleman wishes to bring
Mr. Count Ariiit.g.lalke
staliitte-i'snat we have to do
with instructions; the object I had, being to be prepared to
act at some future time. They are merely preliminary mea-
sures, another E ystem may be pursued at some future time;
I hope it will not; but it may.
Mr. Councillor BeAcxnuire.—l wish to make a few obser-
vations; I will not take much time. The gentleman used
the term "withholding the Bible." If I understand the
Meaning of withholding a thing, it signifies refusing to give
it (I!) to those who are willing to receive it. 1. can under-
stand no other (!) meaning of withholding. We do not, in
that sense, withhold it; but on the contrary, every child is at
perfect liberty to use the Bibleall children who are wilting
to receive it—as fully. completely, and freely as in any school
in Liverpool. We do not withhold the Bible, but we do not
force the Bible on those whose parents have a conscientious
objection to it. (I!) Now, does he mean to maintain that the
schools shall be in future conducted on the principle of cunt-
pelting all the children, as the condition of admittance to the
schools, to receive the Bible in the authorized version ? That
I want to know. It' that is what he means, 1 wont pass his
resolution. But if he means that every child who is brought
for the purpose of receiving instruction, that the committee
should be authorized to do what they always hitherto have
done; and that is, that every child whose parents have no
objections to the Bible, should have free access to the Bible,
then it is quite superogatory ; there is no necessity to instruct
them to do what they are already doing, what they have
always done, and what they have cordially approved of; for
there is not one of the committee who has not as great a value
tor scriptural education as those who mooted that resolution.
If it be not intended that force should be used—that the
reading of the Bible shall be made a condition of admission
to the schools—if that be all that is meant, and that the
free use of the Bible is to be given to those who are willing
to use it, I most cordially approve of the resolution. I have
always acted on it. But I contend that there is not the
slightest necessity to inure that resolution, which, by a side
wind—(loud cries of " hear")—is meant to cast a reflection
on those schools. On that ground, I shall vote against it;
because I conceive it is brought in with an insidious inten-
tion against those who have upheld the present system of
education in the schools. That there is as religious a system
of-examination as is given in any part of the country, I am
proud to asset t, and I dare any gentleman to state' the re-
verse.
Mr. Councillor GE°. WRIGHT was extremely glad to hear
Mr. Earle come forward with a proposition for the establish-
ment of schools for poor children, and so far he agreed with
him: bat at the same time he thought that if there was One
thing which they ought to stick to more than another, it was
to the Bible as a book of iinstruction. He must strenuously
urge that that book he not withheld from the children.
Mr. Councillor CURRlE.—Before we proceed, it is neces-
sary that we should have soruetbing like a disclaither from
Mr. Hodgson. By his silence he gives no disclaiiner to what
Mr. Blackburn has imputed to him. But we should be cer-
tain on that point.
Mr. Councillor BOLYON.—I conceive we ought to have it
before we proceed.
Mr. Councillor HonosoN.—l believe I reserve to myself
the right of rising when every gentleman has concluded.
Mr. Councillor IsAac HoLsiss then rose. Ile said, I
certainly do most strongly object to any more schools being
established on the principle of the present schools of the cur-
potation. We are a Protestant community; we are Protest-
ants in consequence of a certain protest again -t Roman Ca-
tholicism, given in by our forefathers in 1529, and by that
protest ws do most strongly protest against the tenets of a
certain catechism taught in those schbols. ("No.") If you
say " No," it was only yesterday that I read that very pre-
test from which we term ourselves Protestants, and, there-
fore, I cannot permit, as a Protestant—and one belonging to
this corporation—l cannot possibly sanction a measure
which will actually go in dereliction of the very name of Pro-
testant; and must, therefore, oppose directly the erection of
new schools, and also most conscientiously object to the man-
lier in which the present schools are now conducted. (Cries
of " no," " no.") You say " nu," " no;" we know what
caused that protest; we know it was the Emperor Charles V.,
in 1529; he stated that the excommunication passed against
Luther—
Mr. Alderman EVANS (interrupting..)—Sir, this cannot be
revelant to the subject before you,—(loud cries of "order,"
"chair")—and
Mr. Councillor I. HOLMES proceeded.—Although the bane
of the Emperor had been relaxed, yet in 1529 it was deter-
mined that it should be enforced to the utmost—it was then
determined that anabaptists should suffer death if they deter-
mined to adhere to their professions.
Mr. Councillor H ARVE- (interrupting).—l rise to order.
This is matter quite irrevelaut. We shall not know what we
are debating upon • it may be that there is no question before
us to debate on. I do therefore think sir, we should have
that ground clear before we proceed. The gentleman has
shown himself well versed in the French philosophy of Roche-
focault, who said that " language was made only to con-
ceal men's thoughts." (Great uproar and cries of order,'
order," chair," chair.')
The MAYOR.—I wish to ask what is Mr. David Hodgson's
motive in moving this instruction.
Mr. Councillor DAVID HODGsoN.—Excuse me. It ap-
pears to me to be a most preposterous position, because one
or two gentlemen shall rise and say that their conduct is
contingent on the course to be pursued.
The MA Yoit.—This is merely a kind of explanation regard-
ing the object of your instructions to the council.
Mr. Councillor Davits HoDGSoN.—Well sir, I beg they
may be read out again ; and if you cannot understand that,
cannot help it (loud cries of hear). These instructions were
read.
The MA VOR.—I wish to understand whether you consider
the present system is in accordance with the scripture. I
beg to ask thrit, if there should be any difficulty in passing
it? . (Hear.)
!Av. Councillor DAVID HonasoN.—l am not bound, unless
I please, to offer explanation to diseased minds—(oh !oh !
and great uproar)—men who cannot understand a common
explanation.
the MAYOR.--I am to understand that you decline any
explanation ?
Mr. Councillor Davits HoDGSON.—No sir; I do not ob-
ject to give an explanation, but I object to the principle that
requires it.
Mr. Councillor BLACKBURN.—As my remarks caused this,
perhaps I may be allowed to. explain my meaning. (Loud
cries of "Chair," " spoke.")
The MAYOR.—I cannot allow any speech. (Loud cries
of " Mr, ,Holmes," who had continued standing.) We are
now interrupting Mr. Holmes in his speech. It is a mere
act of courtesy on Mr. Hodgson's part. and he declines it.
(Mr. Blackburn here resumed his seat.) -
Mr. Councillor IsaAc HoLstes proceeded.—ln this very