Star.
London, England, 1816-03-30 00:00:00

. 2

eared that were now complitely Thrown
that he di4 not so assert without.sume foe
obvious from the conduct of tiinitters
The Ordnance Estimates had 'seen first I tid upon the
Table, framed according to the extrav Teat pl in of
those now moved for the-Navy; yet, when the Noble
Lord and his friend; began to apprehend that they
could not carry them without great reduction, 'they
prudently withdrew them; and those Gentletnen who
before had made out the accounts, as they then said,
with the strictest economy, now found, to the great
surptise of all, that they could be calculated in a way
that would save to the country a sum of abou:
C 140,000. Of such use was the lesson which tto
House bed lately given.—(fleor, hear, he.
Navy Estimates leer- however, to be reviewed ;
they were to be perm. rei.ed in to the last, and by them
Ministers were once more to stand *fall. He ad-
mitted that the Navy was the staple service of the
country, and that it (..u3ht not to be reduced too low;
but when he found that such men as Lord
Spencer
and Lord St. Vincent had thought a much less sum
than was now required sufficient for its maintenance,
be was unwilling to give more to Lord Meloi'lle,
especially when comparing Lnrd Melville with him-
self. Within twelve months there appeared to have
been a great and unnecessary advance in the expen-
diture of the Navy. With regard to the unfilled
vacancy of which the Honourable Baronet spoke,
was it not a fact that the name of Captain Bowen
had been inserted in the Patent of the Conitnissioners
of the Navy G. Warrender answered in the
affirmative across the table.] —SI that in fact it was
only a transference ; an 1 eleven Commissioners yet
remained, when eight were quite adtrpiate to all thy'
dirties of Peace.— (Ilear, bar) —The maintenance
of this enormous system, at the prestmt moment, W 45
nothing less than a prodigal waste of public money.
With what force had we to contend ? The French
fleets had been annihilated, and the Dutch had
ceased to exist ; yet hi prop,,rti.in to the diminished
danger was the large amount of money to be paid,
that the countty might be kept up, n its gliard.--
For himself, after du: he was prep..red to
vote for the alsolithii of the lath. es of two of the Com-
missioners, from a cenviction that they were useess;
and he thallened n tval man to put his hand
upon his heart and assert that, at a paiod Ike the
I present, the services of, more than eigat could (Je ne
cessary to occupy houses in Somerset-piece.. 01
what use was Comniissi iner Cunnintzhaor, at Wool-
wich ? for he had now no duties to discharge, though
the expento to the kingdom wa, not less than £3OOO
a year, including the maintenance of crews for two
Wats and a gallant. I: was only necessary to state
'he ;imposition of g, wernment to spew how repug-
nant it tv,s to the goad sense of every one; in !WI.,
t::e sum required from Parliament was re'61,00(1; in
1314 it tow to £.121,':00; and, now peace had been
restored, without a chance of interruption, it was
still further augmented to 4228,0,X), and this merely
for the civil estahlishment. No man who voted tr.t
such a bur Jen would easily persuade the people (wit •.
Lad so universally expressed their smtimelits) that
he had done his duty ; and if Ministers persisted in
forcing it enough the they would justly for-
sett the cm; fidence of the c.aratry—(lfear, hear.)
Mr. CRO ER was rot at all sitt prized that the
1-I.tiouraYe Gentleman was heartily tired of
the sit;tivct, for never had he seen a more complete
laihrre in any speech than in that which he had jiist
del.eered. He was just as mistaken in his new ground
is he was on the former occasion ; and yet he told
the kfulise nut to be led astray. He had compared
the first year oldie peace with the last year of the w:tr.
Mr. *TIERNEY said be had otentiourd the last
year of t? it

- Mr. CitOKERII Well, then, I will diets, he is
wroil: in both, and, therefure, will give him Lis
chu:c.e."

Nlr. TIERNEY would return the compliment,
and give the I Inflow-Able Gentleman his choice. lie
1 ( Mr. Tierney) liad sated the difference between the
I first year of peace and the last year t.f the war.
Mr. CROK.ER said, that the ll.:glit FLlnourable
Gentleman had ink the Peace of Amiens out of the
quesvon, whenever it suited his purpose; hut lie
s!tisidd endeavour to prove tktt every one of his state-
ments had been incorrect. In 1791, in the first year
of the war, tie civil expense of the Navy amounted
to 2e6 LOW; and in 18.)3, the first year of the peace,
the expenses of the same department were £llB,OOO,
making a difference of nu leas than A:57.000. He
begged the C immittee would not tnialc he meant this
increase was not justifiable; he merely stated the fact.
In the Dock• yards the expense was more than double.
In the first year of the war, it was £25,000; in the
first year of peace, it was £77,040. In the ontports,
on the first year of war, it amounted to £5,000; in
I' the first year of peace, it was increased to IEB,OOO.
The whole of the estimates on the first year of war
was 5€550,000; and on the first year of peace, it was
rel.2lt3AJO. From -the period of the Treaty of Rys.
wick ..town to the Peace of Paris, there was ant one
single instance in which peace had not increased the
eestablislunent, and• war diminished it. The Right
Honourable Gentleman, however,. had commented
on several minute particulars; and when it was stated
that one of the Commissioners of the Navy had been
removed, it was triumphantly asked, whether some-
body had not been put in his place ? bat it was omit.
ted to be stated, that he was one of seven Comenis-
.ioners
who were to be abolished, and. that, being a
Captain in the N ivy, he would have been entitled to
hall pay and other allowances. The Fight honour-
able Gentleman had gone on from blunder to Won-
t der. He would state the situation of the Commis.
sinners of the Navy in London in alt. the periods. At
the Treaty of Ryswick. in 1696, in the last year of
the war, there were eleven Commissioners of tEe
Navy at the Board in Llndon : in the first year ot
she peace there were still eleven Commissioners. At
the Treaty of Utrecht, in 1712, in the last year of
the war, there were no less.than twelve Commissioners.
This the Right Hun. G ntleman might say was mons-
trous; but the same number of Commissioners existed
in the first year o' tie peace. In 1748, which was a
very hivourable period with the [tight Hon. Gentle-
r man, there were ten Commissioners ; but in 17,19,
tiw first year of.the peace, they were rt duced to eight ;
so that. on the wintery case of the Right Honotara-
: ble Gentleman, the present administration were not
worse thidt those who had weeded them. In 1762
there were nine Commissioners; in 1783, ten Cons.
utwqoliers; sa 1781, ten Commissioners ; in 1832,
ten L;unananaittnria i and /et the Right Honourable

souse, as if they wculd beat him t• 41 He ceded
on him to state any p•:ried of pease ie wr cat two
Commiseine• rs of the N-cy had beeh put down. No-
thing could be worse economy at this moateet. He
in the :nurse of the next
thete;lit that cons:iterebta reductions 'Light be made
year—(llear, he.ir ) kit
had commenced his arum-its with s .ei• g this, he
had all along continued ;0 say it, and o& staiitild and
by say:ng it. When the different accaiiihs wete au-
all.ed, very considerebte reduet:ons RIO e be maJe.—
In mg ird to the two ..ure-•) ors of the Nevi, he ap-
pealed
to every Meether o' this. House who was Itt
all acquainted w ith tae .N tt. .11 i : wistratioa—he
called upor' the pleat Adeairal eppasite to
say, whether their remotion was not made with-
out the slightest vest to politics or patty?
were Meater Shipwrights in the King's yards,
and were recommended un!v by their abilities._
What otsj:ct, political or otherwise, could there have
been for promoting su:h persons, for taking a master
Shipwright at £7lsd a year, to meke him a Sal veyor
at 81000 a year, it it had not beet: tor the °eta& of
the service? As to the jiinear Surveyor, the third
Surveyor of the Navy, he would venture to say, that
he had digeified cis profession by tugs acieece and
success in n. His talents and assiduity had c un-
pletely justified the choice of him, and weula, he
hoped, patty the Committee in continuing him.—
Ile had been ;non:teed to his office at a time when
the want ot a cowmen principle in his Majesty's
yat•ds was so great, that it you asked tie rice of *
ship in one pod, you were told it was £6 per ton—
while another yard said it was £lO. mu the
House have any difficulty in believing, that, under
this system, the less to the public must lieve been
entire:soils ? It was necessary ei establiV• uailormity,
if only ter the pie-pose of check. His bilblitkaS Was
to supetiliteliti tae buildiag of snips, and since Isis
appo ritmerit very considerable sums had been base.).
Ti.e h evever, was very tar front being
pr fit eble, • and i.e had 'lathing to boast, except the
ho .oar of serving les colliery in a Ilti.;:.er
Tel s s deo, at Cnetham Whs £750 a se. •r, with the
use of a !mute, which was a higher emolument than
8100 ):t year in London. That eminee p rsen had
saved the ration—he e slot say thousands, or
tens 01 thousands, but—hundreeis et thousands. The
supetintending eye, the retrenchieg !and, the firm
and manly spirit which he had displayed on every
occasion, had leoduceit all these b_netits to leis court-
ey. It might be said, perhas, w.y nit send est
Lepee.or to ale all this ? Bat an inspector cattld
not al eays have controlled the Captains and other
Officers in the different yards. h wis necessary,
theietorie to eppeint .1 p.rson with suparier power,
and the actual po.itive saving which ha hid male
every day must convince the flotse.thal let was the
cheapest instrusmnt in the hands of Government.
bit. JOHN NEViI'ORT said, the Hon. Secretary
had by no means refuted the able arguments of his
Right Hon. Fused. He had referred to the peace
of Amit:n,, which his Hon. Friend had said was
concluded with a prospect of war at no distant pe-
riod. It was within the recollection of the House,
that that peace was made under very peculial citcum-
Stal+COo .tad therefore furnished no parallel whatever.
The Navies of Spain, France, and Holland were by
nu means conternptikie at that time, but now they
were all destroyed. The Hon. Member had dilated
c• usie!e. ably on the merits of one of the surveyors,
and he agreed its the an•ple 1-raise which he had ;men
hies ; but when lie made this statement of the merits
of the third surveyor, what was to become of tile
other two ? (Hear, 'tear.) If he had saved so many
hundred: of thousands. win were they to be retained,
when they had beell SJ lavish ? That point remained •
unansweted ; bin the H :use and the pudic had a
right to know wily this unnecessary expense was to be
continued. The Noble 1.-rd had taken great credit
ter the y of the peace ; but it appeared, that
the only b.ne.it to the country was, a considerable in-
crease in all the offices of Government. (Hear.)
S r JOSENI YORKE said, that it the Right
Honourable Gentleman and tlie'Henoureble Baronet
• would not be convinced by the speech of his Honour.
able Friend, t ey would not believe Moses and the
Prophets l--(4 laugh.)--He was sorry he did not
then see an Honourable Member in his place, who
considered that all the Gentlemen connected with the
Naval Administration must be out of their mindie—
This was a nice position as far as it regarded him-
self; but the Beard of Admiralty always looked at
two sides of a shilling before they spent it. At one
time, when it suited the purpose of Gentlemen oppo.
site, they were called parsimonious, cruel, and in.
human ; at another, they were lavish, prodigal, and
fooliah. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
thrown out an awful challenge. which to called a
prima facie case. He was uo great scholar, but he
thought that was the name which had been given to
it.—(.4 laugh).—The Right Honourable Gentleman
had declared, " if any man would lay his hand on his
heart, and say those Estimates could not be reduced,
Ice would then give up the business." Now he would
be bold enough to lay his hand on his heart, and say
that the Estimates could only be reduced a very few •
thous and pounds this year, and something more in
the next ; but what msght-be the amount of the re-
duction in the next year he would not venture •to
prophecy, as he might oat live to see it.
Admiral MARKHAM said, that the Commis-
sioners of the Nam)? were perfectly different in the
times to which ehe Honourable Secretary had refer- .
red. There was then a Lord High Admiral, but no
Navy Board ; the Commissioners of the Navy were
the very persons who conducted the business of the
Admiralty. The Navy Office would have as much
to co for the next e•ghteen months as they had during
the ; but with respect to the Admiralty Board,
it ought to be cut down directly. The Honourable
Gentleman concluded by putting some questions re.
lacing to the payment of Navy Prize-money.
Mr. CROKER rose to express his approbation of
the conduct of the second surveyor as welt as the third.
Admiral GEORGE stated, that the Navy Prize..
money alluded to by the Honourable Member who
spoke last but one, was in a course of adjudication.
Admiral MAILMAN and Admiral GIIOIIOP mu- •
Nally explained.
Mr. GIBBS stated, that the average salaries of the
Navy Clerks had necessarily been raised ye dretBo per
annum since tog: last arrangement.
Sir J. YORK explained his gamiest relating to

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rn rainy i and Gentleman. after having been driven limn all his as-
)undation. was sertions, and net being ,ble to make ~ot his pritisa . .
themselves.— facie case, hid r.ferred to the docum .nt, i,e. .e the
: 1 tld upon the House, as if l t _let, uremia hPAr FII•Irt •.. g 1.. .. I- I