Star.
London, England, 1819-07-27 00:00:00

mittee."

Mr. OWEN, after describing his plan ft
wooden model which he exhibited at tl..e Free
Tavern, and descanting at some length urn
fects likely to result from the general a.lo!
that plan, concluded as follows :—Much a.; n
said in explanation of my proceedings, your ti
admit only of that which is most essoptial:
some who are present mar wish, and are ju
titled, to engage your notice, I will now con:
briefly recapitulating those sentiments uhici
to press upon your attention.
The Ist is—Tha the country is in great di-tress.,.

2. That the principal catise which occasions such
the Mind imrcas4.: of machir.ciy utl uih i ,Li:“ti:lL res.

proai:

Aare ::blindartly than the present arrange-
t, zy ma to be coasuoicil.
I,,iehinery and rroductive power from science cannot
rritraincd without creating still greater evils.
e' if ,seieutiliz productions could be limited, it would be
~.e t.. !unlit therm, because as they increase abundance
!,.. y ought, and may be made to be, highly useful
to 411 ranks and classes.
• • pmpi r and natural relief from the existing na-
:•• ptiT it c judicious practicable means by which
• .1 without injury to :Any individual, consumption
the pre-i•it; power of pruttnction, and after-
-I.e.T co-J.:dime,. with it.
applied to rractice will elevate the whole
~; -11, the orpot.itc principle, now in practice,
•. lc the great mass of the people to deacend
• ,•• ••• win•ry.
be dope, it will,
o:, ad.:;it tt d, that effectual can be done
;r,..tt rbange a change even from adversity

Ami,rt has prorogued without adopting any
rtnef fur the Poor; and thus has h been
! t: at toe Liovvrnment and the Legislature
ti tl knowledge of the Poor and NVorh.
• i• •!o-c-ios, to devis.... measures for reii,f.
t ht tiles.' observations, either
1,-!.:t. Cie I.•_.gislature: I :newly state
in-ti;tr,d by all.
-trc:innt,inct, an individual unconnec-
!. but who has devoted nearly thirty years
!•,.• on the cubji et, and to acquire an a;:c1-
;led circumstancgs of the Poor and
• • mode of relief to the Public, on the
,:umption eqoal to prosb,ction, and after-
.r and uniform increase to both, by which
'i be abundantly creati..d, and the country

: r

I .O

rreert
:;,final (inns net whit t conceal from the
-•,,, will m.,re or Its; affect every class au.:
,11 that he l'eliey(K, without a shadow of
!:is own mind, that no individual of any
!•the4: to the lowest, suffer by the
his convictioL. ruw i:, perfect that all

1.. t%, he desirPs rn conPderrt te be placed
clear and stroag it roar• ; but he
d intelligent LI. parties, a

i •

tid; ext?rded and r,•,rtcta`de investi•
e • ,ivies c 4 thr c• -Intr.. are ca urgtr.t, tha.

...tr., of lon7yr v::periment ; and a sound
si•hk..t afh.:cting all tLe eit:l in.
~..ght to be formed only after such au

the book of this dibtinsuish*d philanthropi• st with o
predetermination to disbelieve his statements. Bit
it was said that this Plan was exceptionable, because
truly it would—serve to render men machines. He,
however, would approve of it on that very ground,
for what rational objection could be urged against
making men machines under the regulation of virtue
and industry. If, indeed, men were not machines,
they must be savages. For by education they were
made machines, and reared into a state of civilization.
The Honourable Baronet ridiculed the objection to

this Plan, that it would interfere with the freedom
of the people, observing, that it was at the option of
any individual to enter into the proposed Establish-
trent, or to leave it. Ile panegvrized the conduct
of Mr. Owen, who could not, with any fairness, be
deemed a visionary, as he had reduced his theory
to practice, which it had undergone for fifteen
years, without having a criminal prOcess instituted
against any member of his Establishment. But the
great diffi'cuity urged against the extension of Mr.
Owen's system, was money, as he understood. Yes,
money could be had for any object in this country,
but for that of relieving the poor—(Applause).--.
Millions were squandered upon wars and public esta-
blishments—whole streets were pulled down to make
an avenue for the gratification of peculiar fancy—
(l...;rrl apelausel )—but when money was required for
the benent of the Poor, then and only then it was not
forthcoming—then and. only then Government could
not afford to be generous—,tapplauses). In support-
ing the views of Mr. Owen, he felt that he was in the
right course ; and so feeling, no consideration what-
ever should withdraw him trom his purpose, especi-
ally in following a than, who had, according to his
convicnoa, done as much good for the poor as any
one exi 'zing. He was indeed the more determined in
his conduct, from the example of the Illustrious Per-
sonage in the Chair, who was always active in the
cause of chaeity, and who had, on this occasion, in
despite of prejudice, stood boldly forward in the same
cause—(applause). No prejudice, however, should
discourage Mr. Owen. But no prejudice seemed to
damp his honest ardour. On the contrary, indeed,
his confidence and perseverance appeared to increase
with the difficulties which he had to encounter. He
could have the heartfelt satisfaction of sitting down
in his mansion and viewing the work of his own be-
nevolent hands : he could say, " These people call
me their benefactor, their parent ; I have taken them
from the cells of want and wretchedness, and ha;,e
transplanted them into a place of industry, virtue,
and happiness." May the endeavours (said the lion.
Baronet) of this Champion of the Poor be crowned.
with success ! Though sneered at by some, there was
a limo above who looked on his labours with diffe-
rent eyes, and who would in the end reward them—
(loud and lo;:g-continaeil plaudits). The Honour-
able B tronet concluded with proposing the following
Resolution :
Resolved—llat Repnrt of the Committee nominated by
the Select Meeting held at Freemasons' Hall, on the 26th day of
June List, as row read, be confirmed and approved.
Mr. Too KE, in seconding the motion, expressed his
confident anticipation of its unanimous adoption, ad-
ding, that e.r. appeal for any generous purpose was
never made to a public Meeting of Englishmen in
vain, as appeared from various cases of recent occur-
rences, as well in the course of the war, as since the
conclusion of the peace.
The CHAIRMAN expressed a hope, that nothing of
a political or irrelevant nature,. likely to disturb the
harmony and goood humour of the Meeting would
be introduced in the course of the discussion.
Mr. J. LOWE bore testimony to the benevolent in-
tentions of Mr. Owen, but still could not help ex-
pressing his dissent from that Gentleman's views.
The plan, indeed, appeared to him quite impracti-
cable. In answer to a question from Major Torrens,
Mr. Owen stated, that the commodities produced in
his Establishment might be sold elsewhere, as well
as in that Establishment. If so, those products would
come into competition with the articles-which were
already so cheap in the market, that the workmen
who made them could not live upon the wages which
their employers could afford to give them. How,
then, could such a plan operate to relieve. the poor ?
-But if the population of Mr. Owen's Establishment
should increase beyond its power of production and
subsistence, what was to become of the redundancy?
His main objection, however, to the plan under con-
sideration was its tendency to destroy that spirit of
independence which was the best support of every
manly feeliag and honest principle. Such a system,
to any extent, was altogether, in his view, unsuited
to any old established community, although it might
answer in a new society, such, for instance, as that
xhich was about to settle at the Cape of Good Hope.
Mr. THELWALL maintained that it was not the ten-
dency of Mr. Owen's plan to make men machines in
the common acceptation of the word ; for although
men might be mere machines in certain manufacto-
ries, as in that of pins at Birmingham, it was the
object of Mr. Owen to promote intellectual cultiva-
tion as well as manual labour. It was the object,
indeed, of that philanthropist to have that good done
to mankind which constituted the true idea of reli-
gion and morality, and when the many-headed mul-
titude were educated, they could not fail to be ser-
viceable to the rich as well as to themselves.
Mr. BAPTIST proposed to submit a plan to the con-
sideration of the Meeting, with regard to which lie
had had a correspondence with the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, and this plan was, he said, the fruit
of twenty years of diligent reflection and practical
examination.
Mr. Itowenorr however rose to order, observing
that it would answer better to communicate the Ho-
nourable Gentleman's plan to the Committee, as that
Meeting was assembled to decide upon a particular
plan, and as the business could not possibly be gone
through if the twenty or thirty plans which he under-
stood were in the room should be separately discpssed.
Mr. BAPTIST consented to withdraw his proposi-
tion, observing that he could propose an expedient',
for raising the money to carry Mr. Owen's plan into',
the most extensive effect within seven years.
Sir J. J. CLARK proposed the second Resolution;
as follows, after defending Mr. Owen from the charge
of being a visionary :
That, in pursuance of the recommendation contained in such
Report, this Meeting is of opinion, that it is desirable that an,
Establishment or. Mr. Owen's plan should be founded by way
of experiment and which it is confident expected
the public and to the
promoters of it.
MY. CHARLES GREY seconded the prOposition.

now to the uttermost, and see if it
i,ifluenced by any private motive or
t• t, • r. Lis motives comm. he impugned, if his
tly Wei, it the ,ountry is in general
" And he only a-dts for investigation,
• L.T.iiry which he 50!ic;ts?
.1 sot to continue, when a Gentle-
lossiag question to him :—" I wish to
m 'inner liberty of conscience is to
proposed Establishment ?"
was to Mr. OWLN by the
NV!:0 .liservc.l, that it was a point
t.•11:1 be desirable, and on
it would be teadily given.
,—" 1 am glad the question has been
much &sliged to the Gentleman who
cal rele state, that for the twenty
1 have presided over the Estab-
..av I. teti':, I have not known in any
orderly, industrious, or
as those who are there cm-
V.! Many of them arc from the North
yid do not understand a word of Eng-
TA. (;ael;c, and with the concurrence
:s, who have given me the most able
this, as in every thing else, I have en-'
to instruct them in their own I
is their native language (Loud cheers.)l
al:die:Atkin has been made to me on
religion, I have always endeavoured to
Taagements, as that each individual
betty to worship GOD in his own way.
state, that my own is a house of daily
, hear.) But, Gentlemen, let me not'
1 possess a knowledge which is not
ni therefore not appreciated. Thai
Is me to adopt certain principles, but
. convince me that. I am wrong, I shall
mod avow it." Mr. Owen then went on
12 state of the inhabitants of New La-
c t religious feeling. In that estab-
..i.erved,whetetherewerenotlessthantwo
red persons, there never was known
t religious animosity. There were in the
A:1 English church and two chapels,
:ould he more interesting than to see
of New Lanark walking two and two
:o those places of worship. At the first
topped and said, "Good morning, I am
!." Others went on to the next, and
to the third; and at their return, one
ne that they were all of one religious
The great part of them were
,ished Church in that part of the country,
The worthy Gentleman concluded
ing his readiness to give any further ex-
at might he required of him."
it111;s asked whether it was contempla-
Owen, that the commodities produced in
'meat, should be consumed within that
et, or taken for sale elsewhere?
s answered, that those commodities were
id of in one or the other way, or both, as
or circumstances of the situation might
.e added, that he would not attempt in
to lead the people astray. As Parlia-
iver, had separated without doing any
ive fur the relief of the poor, which he
without meaning any thing disrespectful
Parliament or the Government, but as
I fact, he hoped that a fair trial would be
; plan for that purpose—that an inquiry
nsT ituted with regard to the merits or prac-
that plan, and this was all that he required.
1)'. CnktsetoNv in rising to propose the
Ition, took occasion to vindicate his con-
lathing Owen's plan to the considera-
i louse of Cummoos. The time was now
set ved, when there was as absolute neces-
an iinverative duty, to consider the situa-
poor. For their distress was unparalleled,
U•li tot th sufferings of their fellow crea-
ci-ncur wit.' their Illustrious Chairman in
adopt means for the relief of that distress.
I not, however, approve of the expedient
7 (lovernment of transporting the people
land to a foreign country and un-
climate. For such a system was, in his
atreniely degrading—( Loud plaudits).—
thcreicn-e, rather recommend a trial of Mr.
an, 1,-ainst which, he was sorry to say,
sen:ekss prejudices, that many read

Mao Toilet** rose- for the purpose of giving his treks or this tottntlta-ebtst, ttbflottniiitelys ltf rapes
humble support to the Resolution, and of stating, at ration can be only partial, and it muse still leas,
the same time, the extent to which he agreed with incalculable quantity .of misery unrelieved.
Mr. Owen, and the reasons which induced him to I must confess that it has appeared to the exttemely
dissent on some points. It was ratifying to reflect unaccountable, that in all the projects which have
on the readiness with which their Rosal Chairman . been brought forward for the relief of the poor; ne
and all his illustrious relatives gave their countenance one has ever advised any scheme for colonising them
to every plan for the relief of the tfistressed ; it was according to a rational, systematic, and vell-digestect
gratifying to the poor to be assured in their distress, plan, upon the waste lands of England, and the hogs
that the sanction of the highest authority Vsould be of Ireland. What, Sir, must the poor be lanished
given to every proposal for their assistance. Nor thousands of leagues beyond the seas, to put so simple
should the proposer on this occasion be forgotten. a problem as that of colonising them upon unculti-
Mr. Owen was a surprising man—persevering in his vited nand into execution ? Is it imagined that a
exertions, and when opposed only exhibiting fresh poor man cap. fertilise no land except opon the torrid
ardour. Whether right or wrong, there was a moral shores of Africa ? Will not his native land grant
grandeur in his character; and when we reflected on him the same returns she has granted to his ancestors,
the philanthropy of his motives, we might well ex- if he cultivates her with the same diligence y What
cuse the virtuous enthusiasm of laying the flattering were the greater part of the lands of the kingdom,
unction to his soul that he was the high priest of reason. which now smile ur der luxuriance and verdure, a
It was not his intention to represent Mr. Owen as an few centuries ages—were they not barren, bare and
enthusiast ; he thought, indeed, that Mr. Owen had unproductive as Hounslow Heath, cr any other
invented an admirable machine for the cultivation of commonage in England ? What has brought them
'the human mind. The gallant Major then expatiated to their present fertility, and made them produce
at some length on several parts of Mr. Owens plan, the food of millions ? Was it not' the poor man's
and tecommended the founding of one village as an hands—the sweat of the labourer's brow ? But it
experiment. He must, however, enter his protest may be said that in all those instances capital had
against attempting to abolish pauperism, and the been advanced for the employment of labour
.
poor rates, by this system of moral training. That And, Sir, will the Government advance no capital
proposal appeared altogether visionary, and more except to banish its poor subjects to inhospitable
than Mr. Owen could accomplish, unless he ivere shores, and to an uncongenial clime? or to support
loinnipetent. Mr. Owen ascribed these evils to the them, at home by a contribution of annual millions,
use of machinery, but he (Major Torrens) thought it in idleness, ignorance, and vice? If it were not to
was machinery alone that enabled us to support under occupy too much of your time, I could shew you the
them. The principal reason, in his opinion, why fallacy of that idea, which lam sorry to say is gee
there was not support for all the population of this nerally entertained—that waste lands will not often•
country was, that we had cultivated land worse cal- times re-produce the food that is expended in cults.
1 culated for cultivation than any other land in Europe, vating them. If such an opinion were founded in
and people consequently were induced to transfer truth, it would long since have interdicted the ims
'their capital to other countries where land was more provement of millions of acres of waste land in Eng.
productive. The next cause was, the erroneous sys- land, of moss lands in Scotland, and of bogs iii Ira
term of our Commercial Laws, by which the neces- land. I maintain that they will in all cases repay
caries of life were enhanced in price; and the third the food expended on them ; and in this principle I
cause was the pressure of the taxes. These causes behold a provision for the poor, capable of being
induced people to transfer their capital to countries created by their own labour, if properly directed.--
in which land was more productive, trade more free, I come now, Sir, to consider the extent of that pro.
and taxes less oppressive. Now, these being three vision which exists in both these kingdoms, and it
great causes of excessive population, poverty, and may surprise you when I state, that it is much More
poor rates, he would ask Mr. Owen how his plan than sufficient to create support for four times the
could obviate any one of them? (Mr. Owen, Very number of paupers we have in both countries. Mr,
easily.") If it could be done easily, then certainly Spence asserts (by the way, I beg to say that lam •
Mr. Owen did not possess the talent of expressing no patron of this Gentleman's reasonings) that there
himself very clearly, for he had attended most care- are '22 millions of acres of waste land in Great Britain.
folly to all Mr. Owen's details, and had not heard Suppose that there is.less than one-third of this quart-
one Plan for inducing Parliament to forego the tax tity, or seven millions—and let us take the calc ula.
upon soap, salt, or any other necessary orlife. His tions of Mr. Arthur Young and several practical far-
plan, as far as agriculture was concerned, would mers into consideration, who agree in saying that
never counteract the principle, that land becomes less every acre .of waste land taken into cultivation is suf.
atid less productive as a larger capital is employed in it. licieut to afford sustenance to three individuals--why,
Again, with regard to manufactures, if he confined according to these calculations, these seven million.
the consumption of them to the village itself, he ne- of acres, if cultivated, would yield support to twenty-
cessarily abandoned the division of labour which in- one millions of population. Let us now turn our eyes
creased the productive powers of the human hand.--- to Ireland, and permit me to observe, that as lam
It would be necessary, under such a system, that an Irishman, I beg to take the distress of my native
every man should apply to more than one trade, and, country into consideration. The Commissioners for
consequently, could not acquire that miraculous dea- surveying the Bogs of that country have reported
terity and expedition which were acquired by the di- that there are 2,800,000 acre. of this kind of ground
vision of labour. If, on the other hand, he did not capable of being. rought into cultivation, and that
confine the consumption to the village itself, but went one million of acres of them had been already drained
to other: markets with his manufactures, what was to and levelled, Here then -we have, ready cut and
become of the villagers when there was a glut in these dry (to use a‘tulgar expression), an untouched power
markets ? He would shortly state what, in his bpi- of raising subsistence, according to the foregoing cal.
nion, would reduce the number of paupers and the culatiens, for three millions of the poor of that cotin.
poor-rates. He would first propose an alteration of try. I speak from experience and facts, when I as-
our Commercial Laws, by which greaterreturns might seat that the bog-lands of Ireland can be fertilised at
be given on capital, and persons thus prevented from a most trifling expense. The government of Eng.
vesting their money in foreign loans. 'Notwithstand- land could relieve, Sir, the distresses of that country
ing what had been said by the Hon. Baronet, he at a most trifling sacrifice; but I fear when I ask as•
would not refrain from stating his opinion, that the sistance for the poor Irish, I ask a boon which will
plan for promoting emigration was the best plan that not be granted. England glories in assisting dis-
could have been adopted by Government. tressed humanity in all parts of the world except in
Mr. THELWALL, in explanation, animadverted upon her sister kingdom. While the lavishes her treasures
what he termed the hard-hearted and immoral system upon the sufferers of Leipsic, the pillaged Russians,
of Professor Malthus, who still, he thought,
.wrote and the desolated Tyrolese—the sufferings of Ireland
with very good intentions. But as no nation had never cost her a guinea or a pang, although deep and
ever experienced the evils which that writer had an- overwhelming is her disease and distress. While she
ticipated from his mathematical calculations, it would seeks out the wretched in the most distant kingdoms,
be absurd in his opinion to act upon the apprehen- she passes by in silent neglect the groans and lumen-
lions which they were meant to produce. tations of her nearest neighbour—and pours balm into
Mr. SAUNDERS.—In taking leave to intrude myself every wound except that of the poor Irishman's,
upon the notice of this Meeting, I must solicit their which has been opened and bled in fighting for Eng-
indulgence, for lam not in the habit of public speak- land's honour and glory. (Here the Chairman in-
ing, and never before in my life addressed so nume- formed this Gentleman who was proceeding in the
rous an assembly. I labour cinder apprehension, that I above strain, that he was going too much into a po-
may not be able to explain m y sentiments, either accord- li ti cal discussion ; several voices calling on him to
ing to my wishes, or to the satisfaction of my hearers. proceed, he continued.) The details of the population
I cannot, however, miss an opportunity of testifying of Ireland are but little known, observes a very erni-
my admiration of Mr. Owen's zeal, assiduity, and per- nent writer, of the present day. Yes, Sir, the state
severance in the cause of humanity. Indeed, I should of that unfortunate country is but little enquired into,
suppose, that I only participate in a. general feeling. and lam sorry to say, that this enlightened Gentleman
Whatever opinions we may severally indulge as to has imitated his predecessors in this respect. While
the practicability of this worthy Gentleman s plans, he enters into minute details of the state of the Sava-
we must all agree in admiring the benevolent motives ges of the South Sea Islands, and the North Ame-
of their author. lam of opinion, that one of the rican Indians, Ire apportions but a few invectives to
chief merits of Mr. Owen's plans consists in their the state of the people of Ireland, and attributes all
aiming not only at educating the par, but in making their miseries, to what ? to the extended • use of
them a reproductive class of laboureri iii the corn- potatoes, and violently protests against their intro-
munity. Indeed, had this Meeting been convened ducticn into England as the food old the poor, lest
for the purpose of considering hew to raise hew they may bring with them what he is pleased to term
poverty, - I should be one to '" the rags and wretched cabins, and squalid filth and
gtaixveesthforemthme
ysumppoostrt of
decided opposition ; for I trust,
.disgusting wretchedness of the poor of Ireland." Could
after all that has been written and , publicly . said this Lear ned Gentleman find no other cause for the
on this subject, that there is no enlightened person, poverty of Ireland but the plenty of its sttbsistence ?
who does not consider all taxes and gratuithus dOiia- (Here he was again interrupted.)—Well then, Ladies
tions for the relief of poverty, as so many aihnents and Gentlemen, as you will not permit me-to plead in
to nurture its growth and promote its expansion, behalf of the distresses of my country, permit me to
which, under such a system, will . cause pau- observe to you, that I have thrown together some
perism to become a dreadful Hydra, which will thoughts upon the subject of colonizing the poor upon
finally devour the whole products of this land.— waste lands, but of which 1 cannot at present take
No scheme,' says Mr. Ricardo (one Oldie most en- time to give you an outline. Let me also inform
lightened economists of the present day), merits the you, that accident, a short time ago, led me to visit a
least of our attention, which has-not the abolition of colony of paupers which has been established a short
the Poor Laws for its object; and he is the best friend time back in Holland—in cultivating waste land—
to humanity, who can point out how this can be and that it presented me with the most pleasing sight
effected In the most gentle and gradual manner.'— my eyes ever beheld—l arrived there to see some
This, Sir, I am of opinion', can never be brought hundreds of my fellow creatures who had been res.
about, except by making the poor reproduce their cued from the lowest abyss of vice and misery_
own subsistence, or making them, some how or other, living in the most condisrertle houses—nourished on
to become reproductive labourers. Towards the the best and most wholesome focal—clothed most
close of this last Session of. Parliament, the Chan- comfortably with excellent materials—working with
cellor of the Exchequer brought forward a motion, to the greatest zeal and willingness, as the lords and
enable part of our redundant population to erni- proprietors of the soil which they were cuitivat-
-grate, and form Colonies at the Cape of Good Hope; ing—and proceeding beyond the most sanguine
and, although some Gentlemen, have been pleased expectations of their benefactors. They were des-
to pass some animadversions on this plan to-day at tined to repay them ali the expenses of their co.
this meeting, I look upon it, that it was one of lonization. I took minute details of the measures the
the only meaus left him to relieve part of the dis-
Society arc taking to fulfil this end ; and if any of my

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