Star.
London, England, 1810-02-07 00:00:00

MRLMMENT4Rr PROCEEDINGS.

to give Ana-false reptesentatinnla lie lfall
per.
suaded Ctiesdeas not a Gentian,* in the Gallery of
the House of Commons who would not have spurned
at such a proposition. It was said that the Newspa.
pets were at liberty to print the Minutes of Evidence
as they came out; but would this satisfy the public
mind ? All the interlocutory debate, which often
formed the most important part of the proceedings of
the House, would thereby be lost. It had already
happened, that in a debate with closed doors, a ques--
tion had arisen, whether the inquisitorial powers of
the House should command evidence from a Privy
Councillor? An Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man opposite to him (the Attorney General) for
whom he entertained the highest respect, maintained
1-101;SE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 6. a contrary opinion, and asserted, that, without the
'
A CASTLEREAGH moved, that there be k King s permission, a
id before the i person so circumstanced could
IV..
(odor CopiCS of a Letter from his Lordship to the Commander not give his evidence. If that doctrine was persisted
Chief, dated 2d of September, ism ;. and also one from Mr. in, it was clear that the inquisitorial functions of the
aloso• 2 Jared Stb September, both relating to sending out Me- House were at an end, and it would be well for the
,
vat Gentlemen to Walcheren.-o.rdered. üblic to know who supported
lln3o The 1110t1011 of Mr. WWII BREAD, an account of the P such a doctrine and
who opposed it. He had no doubt but that the
..11,-, a I epees of the Stamp Office, and the quantity of
--- t.o icietffor. Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes, from
mnps I S Right Honourable Gentleman who enforced the
-up tiles, to January isio, was ordered to be laid before Standing Order was actuated by the most honourable
13:0
House.
ROMAN CATHOLIC PETITIOg. and conscientious motives—for he was persuaded
that he could have been influenced by no suggestions
General MATHEW rose to present a.Pedtion from the R.-
.
c•tolics of Tipperary, and stated, that although the Yeti- of Ministers, who must be desirous to give the utmost
leal ,t many signatures annexed to it, yet it had the sanction publicity to Inquiry. If the persons chiefly interested
yn 80,0„, Catholic inhabitants of the county which he had the were not desirous that the public should be shut out
larteo to re eat andunlessttahlene stu‘bjaenctdwwahsobbrougad sh:lfoonrwaadrd. .
from this Inquiry, what was the peculiar sacredness
ly a Gen:lt:nail
.o conspicuousa
Roman Catholics,'
or by some other gmore in it which should lead it to be enforced ? It was the
located de rause of the 0
.I,lx `' li:n himself, he should feel himself bound to bring
forward
general wish of the country that the proceedings of
--the,„i.,ct before the first of May. He thought they should no : the House should be made known, and the persons
roger be treated as aliens in their own country, but admitted tob- .a
on whom that office devolved had proved themselves
fa participation of all the privileges enjoyedby their fellr-su
. worthy to be trusted with it. There was another
They had a right to be put, t in the same Sitliatloll
i4Z.hich they stood by the treaty ofLimerick, as ratified by King . point og view in which he could spew the futility of
Iripiato, but which was scandalously broken by a British Paha- ' the supposed sacredness orthis Standing Order of
fez 1
the
Parliamenteria" of the land, like those which forbid
House. It formed no part of the grand aslex
The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. GILES brought up a Bill to amend so much of the 48th I
King, as related to Stamps upon Bankers' Cheques.—Read minors, aliens, or Peers of the Realm, from taking
:f* ee, and ordered for a second reading on Monday. ,
i their seats in that House. It involved no great con- 1
Mr. GILLS moved for a Return of the Counties in Eng and, n 5 •
ututional question, but was' only to be considered as
hkh the Local Militia had been raised by Ballot or Enrolment ; i
I one of those points of form, which had grown obso.
*Number embodied and exercised; the Number who received
'Vey for Voluntary Enlistment; the Numbet of Fines levied fete by long disuse, and might be dispensed with
evadingly: the Enlistment from the Local Milita into the Me, without any derogation to the honour of the How?.
M.:ices, or Regular Militia, 3cc. 8:c. which, after a few words If tht: Right Honourable Gentleman persisted •in
ega :gr. W M HITBREAD and r. secretary Re DER, were ordered. -. it, _
NAVAL COURTS I.IItTIAL. . enforcing he should hold himself justifiable in
1
loot COCHRANE rose to move for the production of Copiei moving for the enforcement of the whole of the
al the Oath, administered to the Members, Witnesses, and Judge Standing Order, which was, that all stn :ricers found
aavocate, upon Naval Courts Martial. His Lordship disclaimed in the Gallery of the House of Commons, should be
wry priy motives in this motion, or any motives originating with taken into custody. This was impracticable. There
lama transaction of this nature, but was solely actuated by a
sib to set right the misunderstanding upon this subject. He were other Standing Orders equally inapplicable to
b
albeen a Member of numerous Courts Martial, where he had the present state of public business. One was, that
=opportunity of observing the evil conseqUences arisink from there should be no gaming in any of the avenues of
eataisconstrucion of the oath, and the want of those regulations the House, and the other, that the Members should
esthe part of the Judge Advocate which were practised in Mili•
meet for business at ten o'clock in the morning.
tat Coups Martial so beneficially to the public service. He meant
' Is to move for a Committee, to consider the construction Any Member inclined to early rising might enforce
ofthqed oohs, and in what manner they might be amended. that Order. The motion of the Right Honourable
*F. BURDETT seconded the motion. Gentleman for the exclusion of strangers was not, in
Mr. CROKF.R had but one objection to the motion, viz. that'
I po of
intfact, one of the Standing Orders of the
doe documents were already before the House. The oaths of
deMembers and .11tChTe iiir:r;r2”.. world be found in the Star.::'_' I House ; for, in point of fact, the Serjeant at Arms
efi.;l.:lstu on the table and the oath of the witnesses in aback was bound to take into custody every person whom
del the Naval Code; 'arid tiros, where such document. were 1 he found in the Gallery, or any of the avenues of the
utessible, he could see no Parliamentary grounds lot the House, and to report them as prisoners to the House.
24411.
Ira 50!Ile observations bj Mr. R. WARD, Sir F. Bu ft D ETT, Now, as it was perfectly clear, that the Serjeant at
tilt enANCV.I.LOA of the Exclazgunni and Lord Fotxsr on e— Arms, assisted by the regular peace officers in duty
lottlCoextaNx agreed to withdraw that part ot lois motion re- about the House, was not equal to the task of taking
I 1.1; to the oaths in the Statute Book, upon an understanding .two hundred or more persons into custody, it would 1
t!lt he should be at liberty to rt•ad them upon any motion he
follow, that the only way of effectually enforcing the'
n*liereafttr thin: necesaary. The other part of the motion
leis t;ien ptlt and carried. Standing Order of the House, would be to turn the i
111GlIWAYS, PUr.f.tc noans, .•• ND STAGE conctiE.S. key upon the Gentlemen in the Gallery, and wait I
Sir lOHN SINCLAIR, after a new preliminary observations, -until the Serjeant had raised a sufficient /mere tomitat us 1
°seabed leave to bring in Bills for amending and alteriug the to take them all into custody.—(A laug4.)—The
law. res?ettinTuntpike-roadi and Highways, and for limiting
motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman, as it
the number of outside parengert on stage coaches.
A new writ was ordered for Richmond, in room of Mr. C. L. was made, night after night, he could regard in no
DerND AS, deceased. other light than as a warning to the culprits to effect
EXCLUS!OJ OF STRANGERS FROM THE GALLERY. their escape, which was almost as bad as to rescue
Mr. SHERIDAN rose, in pursuance of his notice, 1 them after they had been actually taken into custody.
to call the attention of the House to the consideration ;To argue seriously, however, he begged' leave to
of one of its Standing Orders, which had lately been I state, that the Gallery could only be filled by Ho-
enforced in an unusual manner. He would not trouble i nourable Gentlemen themselves, and that if they
the House at any great length, bit:, he could not help ; introduced improper pers -ins into it. they were them-
remarking in the outset, that some persons seemed to i selves responsible. After some observations on the '
consider the question which he had to agitate as one I Standing Orders of the House, to show the utter im-
of considerable delicacy, and one that could scarcely !possibility of their being carried into elTect under the
be touched upon. He did not regard it in this seri- i present circumstances, the Right Honourable Gen-
oa; point of view, but he considered it as a case which 1 tleman proceeded to state, that it was far from his
came home to every man's bosom and feelings. Its I wish to trench upon the right which Members at
bringing forward the present question he tvas influ- I present enjoyed of ordering the Gallery to be cleared
enced by no party feelings, but solely by a desire to . —he was only anxious, that instead of its being,
preserve the character of the House. He was utterly las at present was the case, a matter of individual
at a loss to know by what apprehensions the Right I privilege, the Member requiring the Gallery to he
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Yorke) was influenced, when ; cleared, should state his reasons why ; and, if it ap-
he called upon the Chair for the exclusion of strangers peared to the House that there was no fit occasion
from the House. He should have thought, that, at 1 why strangers should withdraw, that it should be
a crisis like the present, every thing would have been . left to the vote, and not be decided by the caprice of
moitled which had a tendency to create disaffection an individual. He was led to make his Motion from
h: irritation in the public mind. Last year when an a sincere w;sh that the House should acquire what
investttion of the greatest delicacy waszoing for- they stood in great need of, and what they had of
tend ; when the infirmities of high life were to be late been gaining, the favour and confidence of the
discussed in the House, its doors were thrown open I people. There was no exclusion of strangers from
in tli,! public ; and the proceedings of the House were ! the House of Commons, when the Inquiry was
given from day to ell- in the public prints, without I going into on the conduct of the King's Son—but
ally injury to the Illustrious Personage then concerned. 1 when Inquiry was instituted into the conduct of his
111 the present case, he believed it was not the wish of 'Majesty's Ministers, then the case was reversed ; and
inlet of the two Ex-Secretaries of State, or of the I the House was to deliberate wish closed doors. -
Noble Personage more nearly concerned in the haves- What would the public think of this ?—The Right
ration before the House, that it should be conducted Honourable Gentleman, after recapitulating his lead.
etth closed doors. Upon what principle then was it ing arguments, concluded with moving, that the
fat the Right Hon. Gentleman wished that during Committee of Privilege do meet to-morrow morning
this momentous Inquiry the public should be debarred at ten o'clock, ot the Speaker's Chambers, to consider
from theirusual sOurCeS of informationas towhat passed of the Standing Orders of the House, and more par.
within the walls of that Howe ? Were the reports of ticularly of such as related to the exclusion of strangers,
to proceedings of that House on the occasion to which and to report upon the same to the House.
he had alluded misrepresented ? He was not aware Lord STANLEY seconded the Motion.
that any such charge had ever been made against the Mr.WINDHAM said, he supposed it might create
Gentlemen who conducted that department of the some surprise that he should, on the present occasion,
Daily Newspapers ; on the contrary, that, considering speak and vote against the motion brought forward
all.the difficulties under which they made their re- by his Hon Friend. This was, however, one of those
ports, it was a matter of astonishment the accuracy . accidental matters in which he had always differed
and precision with which those reports were given. in opinion with his Hon. Friend. His Hon. Friend
It was highly creditable to the talents of the Gentle- had said he thought it a matter of importance ; he
men who furnished the Newspaper reports of the pro- . for his own part confessed, he did not think it was. ,
".dings of the House of Commons, that upon an oc- ; This would frequently be the case. The impoTtance
casion like that, which excited so much of the public of the war -had never weighed sufficiently with his
curiosity, all their several reports should have been
found : Hon. Friend to bring him to the House in the various;
correct • and that whatever line of politics one questions concerning it, though this Standi% Order.
Paper or another adopted, there was still but one sort had produced that effect. His Hon. Friend had
of emulation between them, which should give the always been an advocate for the Liberty of the Press.
2tlc'st faithful report to the public of what had actually He (Mr. Windham) was the same, but en other
transpired within the walls of that House. It had . grounds; and what had been said by his Hon. Friend
been said, that there was a danger that garbled state- on the. present question, seemed to him to be rather
meats would be made, buz this was never exemplified the matter of a threat than an argument. To allude tol
during the Investigation into the Conduct of the Com- the enforcement of all other Standing Orders was a'
mander in Chief. If the Editors of the Newspapers threat, and not an. argument. This Standing Order
.
114 called upon the Gentlemen whom they employed had - obtained
and-been submitted to for a century,'

HOUSE OF LORDS,FEBRUARY 6.,
CRONE V. PEIsIFOLD.
Sir S• Rostit.i.c
of dhSirRTIIO SiA %PLUM ZR weg heard at great
ilo °4 th' P3rot of the eApp'ellant.
on theilt
'lle LOn , and Mr. °Liar?, in re-
CHANCELLOR, after many observations on the 1
hi .t, moved that the farther consideration of this cause which
ne'een in gation since 1797, be postponed till Tuesday next t
.j,ea his Lord hip
cd,n of the House.—Agreed.
would propose the earliest possible day for the
Mr. MIT FORD presented at the Bar sundry accounts from the
T!,..:›tay.
. The I:ORD CH ANCE I.LOR laid en the Table several Supple.
..,r,wy Pqrrs, of the production of which notice was yesterday
r, bf Marquis WELLEsmix.—Adjourned.

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.
' Ito inconvenience had beige nltl ti
1 -With
in the last thirty years. His" urable Friend,
seemed to consider 'the right of admission of stran
Vito the gallery as a part of the Constitution,whereas,
leis the contrary, it had been granted as a mere mat-1
'ter of favour. He would first ask, how much the
Country had gained in its affairs since that practice
had obtained ? He could not say in what respect the
Country had gained any thing. Past times might be
contrasted with the present ; but still, from the daily
manner in which 'the debates were published, he
wanted to know in what way he was to state the ad-
vantages accruing to the Country. What was the I
value to their Constituents of knowing what was pas-
sing
in that House ? Supposing they should never
know, it was only the difference between a Represen-
tative Government and a Democracy. Till within
the last twenty or thirty years, it not only was not
practised as now, but' it was not even permitted to
publish the debates of that House. So lately as the
time of Dr. Johnson, the debates were never publish.
ed, but under fictitious names. He was one of those
who liked the Constitution as it was : he did notlike
it as it is. If this had been tolerated, it was no reason
that it should, on all occasions, be continued ; and
that persons should make a trade of what they ob-
tain from the galleries, among whom were to be
found men of all descriptions : bankrupts, lottery-
office keepers, footmen, and decayed tradesmen. He
bad heard those Proprietors of Papers had talked of
:the injustice of close doors. This was taking up the
Subject as if the admission of strangers into the gal-
lery was a privilege ; but it was no such thing ; and
though he might perhaps think it useful after having
s•-) long prevailed, he did not allow it to be a privilege.
Were thatalie case, we should come into a state of
democracy—a state like that of Athens. He did not
think accounts in the Daily Papers were so desirable
as many others did. They had lately reviled Go-
vernment so far as to assert, that some of their co-
temporaries were in the pay of Government. What
did this prove ? Not the value or actual importance
of Newspapers; but it clearly shewed that if Go-
vernment could have them in their pay, then News-
papers were liable to be let for hirp---to be bought
and sold—and the press, which has been thought in
this country the palladium of its liberty, was always
to be purchased by the highest bidder. He did not
wish to establish such a power in the press as to ena-
:)le it to controul Parliament. He did not know any
of the conductors of. the press ; but he understood
them to he a set of men who would give into the cof-
rupt misrepte-iCilt :tiZZ t'f apposite sides • and he was,
herefore, determined not to lend his hand to abrogate
an order which was made to correct an abuse. He
now saw that it led to consequences of a most mis-
chievous tendency—no less than to change the cha-
racter of a Representative Government into that of a
Democracy ; and led directly to that despotism which
had so lately desolated other countries. He did not
like to part with a Standing Order, which, though it
might have run to rust, would not in former times
have led to any mischief ; and he could see no reason
why it should now be laid prostrate at the foot of the
very Worshipful, but he would not say ancient Cor-
poration of London Printers. Those gentry had their
favouritec. His Honourable Friend was esteemed
and hailed by them as a general patron of the Lon-
don press. He thought the House ought to discard
sort of 'disgraceful objection to its proceedings, and
maintain those rules and orders which have so long
prevailed. He would assert, that the rights of the
House were now in danger of being lost from misuse.
He would have the Order occasionally enforced, for
the same reason that the gates of a park were some-
times shut up, to prevent the establishment ofd right
of foot-way. It was like the 0. P.'s, who had set
themselves up as the people of the country, and by
a system of opposition and violence had compelled
the Ifroprietors of the Theatre to give theM plays at
:heir own price. In this way the Proprietors of News-
papers told them that the people must have a daily
publication of the proceedings of that House at their
breakfast : and in the name of the public, say, We
nave that right, and have friends in the House that
will support us in our claim. His Honourable Friend
had said the character of the House was at stake ;
according to which argument, all the Houses for the
last 3(1 years had no character or ability at stake.—
His Hon. Friend was now also most anxious for the
characters of Ministers; he could not blame him for
that ; but he (Mr. Windham) was anxious
tor tne fame of this House, and could not see why
they should hesitate in supporting a Standing Order,
.which had the sanction of so many years in its favour.
For these reasons he should certainly give his vote
against the motion.
Lord FOLKSTONE said, that he noted with
the animadversions made by his Right Honourable
Friend (Mr. Windham) on the venal state of the Lon-
don press. He thought that venality very general
and very gross. He further agreed with the same
Gentleman in thinking, that the state of the country
SO or 40 years ago was preferable to that in which it
lat present was. But he was far from thinking that
1-that change was to be traced to the existing prac-
tice of publishing in the daily papers reports of
the proceedings in that House. He thought that
there were other, and far different, causes to which
that was more justly attributable. The great increase-
of taxes—the long foreign wars—the establishment,
to such a great degree, of standing armies—the no less
remarkable increase of barracks throughout the coun-
try, were, he thought, among some of the principal
causes that had led to a change so much to be la-
mented. With respect to the publication of their
debates, he did not know; formerly he might have
thought it productive of much inconvenience ; but now
that it had been suffered to go on so long, he thought
it was desirable thatthe publicity of their proceedings
should experience no material interruption. He ad-
verted to the manner in which yesterday's debate had
been conducted in that House upon a question for
nominating a Committee, in an Inquiry so peculiarly
interesting to the country. Gentlemen had spoken
openly of a balance of opposite parties, and seemed
disposed, to reproach all those who did not list under
the banners of either. In short, the Whole question
had been argued throughout with a reference to party
feelings. This was a mode of proceeding, he was
sorry to say, not peculiar to the debate of last night;
but, though it was not, he never knew it carried to
5o indecent a length (if he might so speak) as upon
that •occasion. In shot t, when he heard it thrown
out, as a reproach against men, of whom perhaps he
was one, that they were-connected with no party, he