Star.
London, England, 1829-04-04 00:00:00

V***
60 bp,

see, d.l
141.
144 ani
Le=
saki (4
as•abor.
fay ix*

tee ..yet• J. The term a allegiance" is one of civil import
only, and means •a. faithful . Obermiett as all the civil
duties owing by subject‘tothe•laws, and to that *mho.
ytbriikin .they • aro anveined. Nn I labia ofiks
ihyte4f t! sty Oa. their behalf,. that the NH* and Irish
*mail carhati6 aro is'leady tntake this
weave pored it ender as trying cireumstaisces at
tistsaberrpottiori •of his. Majesty's ,solojects. I tome
licoougooaetkor prsiot. win' tree-to admit that 'Papal
wis pa,bed'ta a great length, and that tickle-
siestiol 'venni prevailed to a great 'extent in these
Vorionni but .Ideny that that user patios, der i Ted its
anstMnrity. trolly the-goons of their religi•ns, or .the dis-
position tlf 'the Itearan `Catholics theostelees. or that
tyranny was founded on thotharatter of the Catholic
foitoo.m its (aids. Thee are, in my mind, to be traced.
to a base conspiracy of the Popes • and Illorsarchs.of
Mose The separation of the eccteslastical Wont
tpe. tsippor al tribunals.' the celibacy Of' the' Clergy, and
Oliser;points,of. disCieline.. were mote the acts of -the
Monarchs of this country than of the Popes thaai•elees.
Nut only had the people aid ''he Clergy an pert in those
'encroachments, but they bad 'e'er shown •ttemselves
Veady, when called up,m, to come 'for ward and oppo
them. I differ, from L nds whnthink that his-

'Moe should-have aoallthority on this question, because
dam history of greet-importance, as it teaches •knose.
ledge. .(The Royal Duke here referred to the conduct of
ArchbiihopLeagtoo in support of his position h At the
Bat -period. when -King John was disposed to submit
tothe Holy See, that same champion of religion and
isilependence. -well aware that it was a conspiracy
legal tyranny on one side and of Papal tyranny es-as 1,
other, 'stressed at the altar his determination to appall
; 'and when be •was visited•with a Bill of-Suspensions
what happened in this Popish town? I mean the-Popish
sows et -which I speak (Oaf.td, we believe). All the
bells-were meg in daision of the attempt. Neither to
the statutes of mortal:it), and the penalties of pram-
wire, did the Catholics offer any resistance. Even
Hens yVIII. found-peaceable and-quiet behaviour on the
part of the Roman Catholics. Neither did-Elizabeth
ever complain of their condom, but coetinued to trust
thews Their attachment and loyalty to the Stuarts,
even inda.the infliction of persecution, are mattes, of
notoriety. Oa this point all I shall•say is this. and-I
reason upon it as a political subject, that this country
was at one time, Catholic, but that the people even at
that time never confounded political with litigious sub-
mission. I feel, therefore, warranted; when I recollect
bow much more the Roman Catholics r f the present day
are than those of whom I have spokes, in contending
that they equally recognize that distinction. -Having
got so la. allow me to put it to -Noble Lords, taking
the terms.ot the oath of allegiance the way in which
bey understood It. is it.not rather.a spiritual than a pais
tical submission? and if they concede this poiot.to me,
in what situation will they find themselves? It I Ofb•
demand any thing, my Lords, of the oath of supre,
unary, it grants to the Crown full -and cimplete- pre-
dominaocy in all ecclesiastical affairs and the temporal
government of the Church; but it roofers no spiritu-
ality ;and in these is contained nothing which-the Re-
seen Catholics tett any difficulty in conceding. .1 wish
boduparties to recollect that the supremacy • atlongirqg
to the Crown of Englandand the supremacy of the first
Bishops of the Christian Church widely differs—(Hear,
heaving' ). The one confers. ras-I have-already -said,
power over all the ecclesiastical affairs and temporal
government of -the.Cburch; 'and the other is strictly
limited to inatteosof faith and doctrine, and can only
be -exercised by ecclesiesties. The King of England
assumes no spiritual attributes -to which the .Cathelice
feel-bound to resist. In 4liem they tieback to the Pope
ind-no other. The•eanis intoahich webave fallen an
this sublet require that "I shotil4 obtrude on your Lord-
ships still Natter. When the Oath of Sweeney was
first framed,- many timid and conscientious :persons
ilniongst the Protestams felt *leaned and staggeted--
Marina] at *net they found iuthe,title of itself.
tolia.titlithatibliptopoted to vest in the Croats:full
sovereignty ever the State in its ecclesiastical affairs—
a'dilewhith ,edusitted •to be so 'dubious, 'that -five
nearrafteiwards it pee rise to 'an explanation, Which
to .be found in the 37th Article of our • religion,
and whieb, with your •Lerdsbips' lean* l shall sow
veadto you. The filth .Artieltis -as hollows—' Where'
we attribute to the King's Majesty the Chief -govern•
anent, by which tides we understand the Minds ammo
slanderous folks to be offended, intim Out .to •ome-
Princes the ministering eitherof Guns ward or of • the-
Sacraments, the which thieg the iiicauttioes also lately:
set fortkby Elittabetkourma, do most nlainintise
tify.i latit.thatonly prerogative' -which melee to hest
been.givenelarays to all gOdiy Princes in Holy Scrips
tires by GOD Maned.; that is, that they shoeldruleall
states and degrees committed to their charge by Goa,
whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal, and restrain
with the civil sword the atibbotit end evil dom."—

Iu arialysinrthis:passage I-may -bralloweittosity,.tirat ,
by itirogr Lordships-will-see that the Bing of Ettglasd
could neither administer the °sacrament nor .con kr or•
dination, aad that 'hese things, thenfoseeshich:the Ra-
ttan Catholics object to •recegoite as pertaining to the
Crown, are really matters Which the Clown does, not
anogate. But, .suppose the Amon Catholics were
disposed to confer spiritital authority en tide-trough:in
whet a perdloarnent would not the Crown be placed l
The Crown claims sio such authority, and that;l tbidk,
I have creamy proud to your Lordships.. The nest
point mooted by certain pessons in opposition .to this
measure was, •thet certain istinoziotro decilitres were
prcliatald by Stationers of the airman Catholic
chine.), and attend into ita disciplinearatleast. that they
were not publicly disclaimed by competentuntherities.
To this objecting the vet odds- we ropour to nib-
'nano' for those hitherto required it' the very best -that
could-be framed, buth.lot. throe who . alicarldtkose who
administer it. I will contend that in electing massive*
into the station of judges et ithe.meenirig loo-
sely ofindividuals, and attribtatin:Stotheinittutiies
'Which they theatielvei we act not fibetiliy.
The Alight lbsinertadiketastswrillallow melons& them
what is the state of the Church in thisoeuntriy Moreno
changes -barn introduied inni its disdip* ? ?las nut the
prescribed forms afthethrtriibeedieadinitiy departed
•
ftelappiiftia wiltllaqt :tefineialt Air Atbonasian
Creed? Are them not many clergymetrashostfaselo
read that creed, -and: yet-T.4 iters.-tiviner -heart Of any
ecclesiastical censure progunnesd opi'in tti Clailyeen
foe sudi a •.departbie -from tthe Ofellsilbed form !rat 'the
Literal? .411.. y Foot, sheridtive, .be alloweditoosay lbws
this is a change ? • • Again; 'I .14411.8** di the
rhactin, thei am irily priyared •tO give
.g.p,o4l.tii deiLacatuin ideintainei 141.6418'h
It kat*. 4446 JiLo:sia Air .be :had „itc
cursed thiu imams :Am that teeing :men shall be
Meg cliff; ebviess'or seat 4whish ,he so that
hue` -he "titling in Kt amt- life • retorting' !to Ibis
14‘ atilt "thelight .ht Clibalt say til!ti
14Tel to this is, -that all -,the -iiiisiment4tors trim
it %wre" •beeri.estiewrilly insieugg Voss over the
semi it theie erorili, and to get rid of theni as r 1
as •h-siiii:laL—rileas,,ltiat 1. Dftbe .canons I That:
S tutor "Clew -avostk. - genre of *hem, S believe,

like the article% have been changed by that agency
Time, width: Lewd lleitio says it is • tboiretittrit:
veto, at ell:* *.I tuiertedtto &mi.'s% an
orpiment foil kb. gratembm to-others o(diat indulgence
which ire eTaimator Massey-a; likyo' aptigi seining is
a poor excuse on which to hang an accusation so
heavy, and by which to-suppint a system that ought
tut ro be iikswerfittsztuntioue a moistest longer than
necebsary.' Certaitilyll'idmit that apprehensions of dan-
gers and difficulty as likely' to arise out of this mestere
ate entertaioid by tway,•and I am not in'diffevent 'to
them myself ;* but I feel them the Ins, becashe I .am
contioted that real ChtistiAnity and. true telrgicto Avail
be better served by theMeattare now proposed than'ty
any other aarse that we-could pursue. Wit were put
to my choice whether I should prefer the maimatnatace
of laws which ion et disabilities to the exclusive

enjoyment of immunities and privileges, .1 •shoeld•not
hesitate a moment. My choice is made, for I 'so
not one of those who'could look tin calmly and say
that the bayonet is the best way of settling those
things. I may hp told that it is no persecution to
the Ronson Catholics, as they sire allowed to worship
their Milt in according to the forms of their own reli-
gion, trrexc;uJe them from political power. lam not
one of• those who will attempt to impose upon Noble
'Lords my own interpretation of the word id persecu-
tion." I aas quite willing to take the messing of that
phrase'from that great investigator of the human un-
derstanding, Mr. Lotke. Locke says, alf puoishtnent
bevuoishment, we may, talk of fire and faggots ; ,bot it
is cocain that punishment is tralysand substantially
such, though it be only what you in your clemency call
moderate and convenient penalty." My Lords, I am no
persecutor, though a warm Itiend of the Established
Church.

L"

I cherish my country and vessetrate its institutions—,
love religion, and hope to be saved by the mediation
of the same 'Repent= to whom my fellow• Christians
of another persuasion look ups* lum a firm' friend 'to
the Established,Chtue h. But, teeing.threfitets *shit
have so lone Rowed in 'the course of policy which has
been •pursued rowards • the Roman Catholics Of this'
country. and seeing the dangerwhichTetults from this
condition of society, to the Church itself. I am disposed
towvarl:mystlf of the opportunitrurbieb this measure
offers of remedying these• evils and avestingthese dun:'
gas. 1-cannot wail, like the tountrymno isr the kW*
" Dam delltiatwasnle,"
but feel it my duty to rake advantage of the meats
which are now presented of ensbling use to live in peon
with my fellow:Objects, and of being united witbtbetel
in the bonds of crvilliberty and religious Concord. A
shall n-w, my Lorsis, ibsy a tear words upon the general
nature of this Bill. 'The munificence of the bdon which
it confers calls for the a arrnest expression of my yeti
-
rude, and the simplicity 'ldle measure, which deprives
not the Roman Catholic of any advantage which he now
enjoys, is c:slculaied to-confer security, not only upon the
Established Church, but also upon every interest of the
State. I have now, my L'irds, done my duty iii stating my
'Opinions Upon this 'measure, and giving it my support.
t toot with confidence to the coneluSion, and when the
'ltnyll sanition shillsbi given to. the measure, I shill
be'eriabled to say—" Now is the time whets the reel
SitiOnshail Impatt its' benefits to pun Ireland—an
11111, real, and permanent--an union ihich until then
will have only existed in name; bat which, when ac-,
really elEtted, will bike the hopes and preyen of the
people of that country fur the cOlilluoti twelfate•of thif
Empire—an utiforn whieh-tvill consolidate the powers,
insources, and'Councils of the country, and .lottoddee
blessings of domestic peace and universatbappinese
?be jArdthiellop OrCANTEROURYirsylebed.
The LORI) CHANCEL) ORhere lefslbeilleMselik,sweldn.,
the House when Lord KENTON nme, and was about to address
Obelibeetieldpe.—(Great4entaseek moductias et " Owlet r wad
as Lord Chancellser amidst whiels)—
Ined'HOLLANEtroer to order, aid moved Hut the tleasillei
be heard—(Cheerlas, and Order, order).
lewd HUI:I4A ED."- tir.Lords, I weer 'yet .knewat lestrist
widels,,whess. the Lecd Lltanceller left the Wallach wedises
tbalAis was oat beard.—(Great cheerios and mud eau.
fake in the House, and 'easteldereLle emitement holew the bar

near the Thoseeeoudgenesalranteeir tbelr•landsbips).
-Lord-VAANIIA4I adulthood that, is nrsibury useuthe Lord
Osenceller ought to ham presedsace; but he put it to the Loud!
Chancellor himseW to say, whether, when a personal attack was
niedoupinst a'Neble Lail, be wu not at Shorty to be heard?
Lord ROSSLYN considered that the Noble Lestiello "eh*
_ _

lasi ditinet-speak to the alethishaand had se tight nalmiseenpi the
Nobk ,Lord—r(Cbeers).
Lord' FARNHAM did not interrupt any Noble Lord, but aim.
ply-rose to order--(Cries of Order, and mock callosled).
The Marvels MLA MSDOWN minsidered shot she'Nehie Lent
had as sight eo. ertale.—(Order I and eenfosiets). After which
The Loiustauescuene. antiord Reasseaut both rom—(Hem
the confusion increased tenfold, and the calls of m Onto: !" were
isore vehemenrthen ever, mingled with repeated calls foe the Lord
Chinediee eo address the Hoeft).
Lord HOLLAND, whose voice towered above -the storm • et
ceofesima, now obtained.a nseeneot's hearing. and-succeeded in Is.
lag the attention of their Lordships. He said that the modem
before, the *nee was, whether the 'Lord Chancellor bcheanf ? and
the motion was to be poi ta= the Wooleaek,to tbat diem, when
.Lord-UlNVON.rosevand wished to know whether theindi.
eldest to whose alludes bad been made by the Royal Duke who
had just sat down should be heard or not? If the House was
against him, he should certainly never feel it hiseloty to-make an
explanation .again. The 'Noble Lord then explained 'boot the
publication which-lead been referred-to by, the Doke etiosees.
The Duke of SUSSEX was-mtry to have-stated say thing that
was painful to the feelings of any individual. He retrasted what
he bad said if that was °Rendes, and was sorry for it.
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to offer the ex.
planation which the Noble and Learned Lind late on
the Woolsack (LordEldoo) required some nights since.
It -was natural that as a Minister of the Crown be
ibodid explain the gioatod,.. on which be recommended
the adoption of this measure to his Majesty. He
agreed in what had been repeatedly slid during the
debaxs on piesenting Petitions to the House, that
this was 6ne of the most important questioiss that had
ever been agitated in that Hoes.... and, if after.the re-
conimendat ion of the. Crowo—iif after. its having pas,ed
in the other !Howe, =by 'so overwhelming and cones
mending -a ,majority of the Repreientstaves df the,
nation, it should; by • ady fatality, not piss in their
Lordship? House it would be impossible for the stoutest.
hearts to contemplate" bei *suit without pain and
regret. If it &wild pass into a' law, be (the 'Lord
Chemins/41ot one, 'did not apprehend but t h at- it would
be productive of .the most [avowable conseqUeoces.--
The .Nobloaadisemaailamd at the table (Load Skims),
he called him Nuble Lord, since be (Lord Eldon)woold
not-2110W hirtriacilittnifriend(Laughter). The Noble
and ,Learned *Loa bid icalled on him (the Lord Chan-
..
cello') a few nights ago to vindicate his consistency, he
(thirtordiChatesellor)ocauptedtbecbtillienge, and would
now support .his consistency. When he had been a
%ember 41 the-other lieitse:he stated his opinion Whim*
reoenve.on.thisviestion, *salvo in %the last Session Ili
this House. On erbiebeccasinai he wised in terms on
J.:elicit, ton explicit -to be misooderstood, that he
Aftinild 'feel `bound-iv grain concession to the Cads°.
it *he could do so tonsi.tently With the .secuiky
of the..Piosestiot ,Evablialsment, and f the Empire
.z..tihres, He area *bin won.ideved by many
opponwa.totheireireirre, us wet sufficieritly treaseen-
tont in .the micas he bad taken as going tot) far. lie was
re-p'sesenistive for the laiiirreraity of Cambridge when
;la aid-broached their iesitiatessa, and aceesal of dais

Maw