Star.
London, England, 1817-07-01 00:00:00

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Jalght, he thoonht.indoce a fatal change in the Con.
• sitution of the country—as the measure, while it di.
finished the salutary. would go to increase the bane-
ful interests o• Crown.
The Earl of HA ft ROWBY supported the mea-
sures on similar grounds 0. those advanced fl his
Noble Friend who opened the discussion.
Lord REDESDALE objected to the proposed
measures, and pointedly urged that of their going to
lodge in other hands, a patronage which had been so
long constitutionally exercised by the Crown.
The LORD CHANCELLOR generally suppot
rd the and in reference to what had fallen
from a Noble EA, observed that he had actually
preserved one of the Bills alluded to by him (as re-
jected with scorn on a former occasion), as a legisl4-
tive curiosity ; for any thing more absurd, in the
shape of an Act of Parliament, he had never seen.
Earl GROSVENOR admitted, that a debate upon
this sahject could not he of the liveliest description;
the question had been frequently discussed, both on
principle and in derail; but at present the House was
IRA prepared to enter minut,-ly into the particulars of
the measure. His Lordship was rejoiced that the
Bill now came forward under more favourable au-
spices; not indeed that any praise was due to Mini-
sun, or to himself, and those who had persevered in
calling the attention of Parliament to the subject, the
credit belonged to the Nation, who, with one voice,
Low claimed that Sinecures should be abolished.—
Tl:e House was not indebted for the measure to po.
; ut.ir clamour, which one Noble Lord had censured,
but to the good sense of the country, expressed in
every Petition laid upon the table for a redress of
l;rievances. The Noble Lord who spoke last had
talked of his resistance to the Bills of 1812 and 1813,
,btit he seemed not to zectillect that then he had only
opposed them in principle; now he had gone into
the detail ; but he did pot appear to be more happy
in the one than in the other. He (Lord Urosvenor)
objected principally to the clause of compensation,
wnich be saw in the Bill before the House. The
Yeti ion List at present amounted to 8'230,000, and
he did not see any reason for casting new burdens
upon the people. Out Noble Earl (Harrowby) hla
argued that this measure rather increased than dim -
toshed the influence of the Crown ; but, at lest, it
diminished, on the whole, the weight which the Na
non had to sustain. The influence of the Crown
had, indeed, of late years, most lamentably spited
i ite all the eoiployments of life—it came home to
the business and tiosoint of all men—no pace ,• as
tree from its visitation, and that chiefly trout the im-
mense en.arge,nent of the Revenuer—it
Lives ;btu' all lite, extends Wu' all sum,
Spread, undivided, operates uuspent.
Yet even allowing that We Bill upon the table aug-
mented the influence for the present, that influence
could only be of short duration ; it would not be he-
reditary, as was nuts not infrequently the case, It
was singular, atter the opposition the Bills he had
introduced had met with from the other side of the
House, that the present should originate with the
Treasury Bench ; that some Noble Lords there sit-
ting should stand forward to support it; and he
hoped, in this age of eenstructi* and fine-drawn
treasons, heishould not be supposed to be commit-
' ting.a crime of a very heinous nature in opposing
ere put of it.
-Lord ERSKINE earned the House against the
augmenting posher and weight in the balance of the
Constitution which the other House of Parliament
was acquhing, and which was exemplified by the
fait, that it had the power of removing any Minister
the Crown thought fit to appoint. Above all, their
Lordships ought to take cam that it did not impro-
perly yield, because the other House, Session after
session. besieged it with the same Bills, or at least
wills Bills having the same principle. it was neces-
sary
first to inquire who mad* the demand that Sine-
cures should be abolished I and next, what was the
precise nature and nbject of .that demandl If hods
these were examined, it would be found that diem
was co pretence for the measure now submitted.—:
• There was a wide difference between complying with
wishes of the people in reasonable matters, and
suddenly consenting to such an alteration of the'fixed
Constitution as deprived the King of a power be had
liitherto at all times possessed. His Lordship then
called the attention of the House to the distinction
between mace pensions, and offices of high dignity
for the reward of distinguished services ;'and com-
pared the latter to architectural ornaments, which,
while they increased thebeauty, in fact, also added
to the strength and-solidity of the edifice. He argu-
ed that, if sinecures were abolished. the people would
not in tact be gainers, as the fees of the offices would
not be diminished. Considering the power the
House of Commons-possessed, it was neceuary that
the Crown should possess - a certain degree of info-
et.ce and weight among the leading individuals of
the realm.

Lord ARDEN was sorry he could not concur in
the principle of the Bill. lie considered sinecures
as a mese. vested in the Crown for repairing the
lemisfortunes of Noble Families, torn did destroyed by
' the injuries of time. *Ate present bill went entirely
to deprive the Crown of those means, and to substi-
tute nothing for them: He had no doubt his Noble
Friends were actuated by honourable motive,s, but
in this icstaace the interest of Ministers wits in direct
Opposition to that of the Crown. Viewing the Bales
operating a great change in the conditional the Crown,
he co* not conceive how the House could accede to
such a measure, end he thought they had not :hewn
the Throne due respect in countenancing it so far.
' Earl BATHURST, in reply to throbjection that
this Bill went to take away offices out of the gift of
the Crown, observed, that it was unconstitutional to
suppose that the Crown would dispose of any office
without an accompanying responsibility I but the ol-
fices.of Auditor of the Exchequer and Clerk of the
"'ells were not in the gift of the Crown, but in that
of the Treasury. As to the objection; that pensions,
being 0 matter of right, would call for no gratitude
ft ouirli objects of such bounty, this might have been
so uttider the former Bill! but at present, the number
of pensions being limited, the Crown would exercise
a st.leetion,and the objects of such selection must al-
wa be 'beholden fur the prefetence.
lord LAUDERDALE was proceeding to ex-
p!alo. when-- •
I.erd HARROWBY rose to order, as the Noble
Lord was trans pees* do bounds of explanation.
The Hum they divided on tlic question, •wiliether

the Bill shoull he co omittfd ? when the numbers
were—Cnntent, 27; Not content, 7; Majority, 20.
' The Bill then passed through the Committee, and
some amendments having been agreed to, the Report
was brought up.
The Exchequer Offices Bill was committed, and
the Report brought up ; as was the Bill for the Abo-
lition tit the Offices of Chief Justice, in Eyre north
and south of Trent and Warden of the Cinque Ports;
and a Bill for the Abolition and Regulation of cer-
tain Offices in Ireland anJ .Scotland.
The sit/end Reports were brought up, and the
House adjiurned at eleven o'clock.