Star.
London, England, 1816-02-29 00:00:00

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R *se aids but what was the nee* for it in
isenals and depots;they 'vice sold—he
eland? A
establishment!, their name was French,
s., jag tatter
clover,' o harsh weaving to English ears; but
rir agility he also denied—they can be only useful
tionobrar. It was throwing good money aftei
Jpreserve them, and he was of opinion that it
to
oaki be ranch better to poll them down at once.—
prosperity of the country had been quoted as
ra;terfor the continuance of this system ; an in-
-.
of donsini .n he always understood to be an
of strength, but here the reverse was the
But if a sacrifice were to be made, he would
k that the extent of territory should be relin.
ogled, rather than the spirit of the Constitution.
It was ridiculous to say that the increase of
loon bad caused the necessity for this en-
. establishment. That opinion had, however,
ides' upon ; tor three years ago, when he corn-
: • of the erection of Barracks near Bristol and
iwrol, the answer was, the state of the aountrf
it. So was it now, and such would it con-
. us be. A renewal of the contest with France
one would think, contemplated, even in that
he objected to the present system, 'because it
to aaticip ite and destroy the resources we ought
cherish for a fame day. He lamented the ab.
of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) because he
the total. impossibility of that Noble Lord's
• g any explanation which would lead to influence
,anion of the House in the maintenance of the
system. He world also lament that Minu-
te the House, would countenance this military
which was wholly unfit for the sanction of a
~ House of Commons at any time, much less at
to of pr.ace—(Lard deem)
• or. LAW and Lord FOLKSTONE explained.
Mr. ROBERT WARD observed, that the more
subject was sifted, the clearer woul.i the neces- '
• of the proposed establishment be found. He
d not, indeed, expect the concurrence of those
were in the train of the flonourable and Learned
Akan •n opposite—
Mr. BROUGHAM here rose to order (at the
moment cries of Order, were directed below the
1, ), and said," It is not to enforce order either be-
the Bar, or under the Gallery, that I rise, but to
upon it in the speeches of the Honourable Gen-
- opposite. The Right Hon.'Gentleman has
that we, at this side of the House, act in some-
's train : in the train of whomsoever we act, let
*Right hon. Gentleman bear in mind, we receive
pay."--( Bear. hear.)
Mr. R. WA KU explained that, though he did not
rota to depart from the expression he had used, he
at to impute nothing offensive to the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman o;sposite.
Mr. LAMBTON—" The assertion is unfounded,
that any Gentleman at th's side of the House act in
y man's train—let the Right Hon. Gentleman
arse those who do ?"—( Hear.)
Mr. BENNETT" Atter having made the as.
iestiAit is impesaiive upon him to do so." (Near.)
Mr. VESEY FIIZGERALD The Hon.
Credmen opposite have no right to interrupt those
with whom they differ in opinion in that House, and
to impute to them that they are actuated by motives
less honourable than thdse which govern themselves."
(flaw, hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM...." I spoke as to a fact
d eat impute to the Gentlemen opposite motives
• honourable than our own, but merely referred to
• situations as being somewhat more lucrative."
flaw, arid laughter.)
Mr. R. WARD said, that the explanation of the
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham)
eIJ tint prevent oisn from saying, that the allusion
es, at least, 'innecessary.
Mr. hROUGHAA fell himself called upon to as-
that he made no abandonment. and gave no it:-
ligation of what had fallen from him.
Mr. S. Milt MEV said, it was time that those
assun,ed such a .one as the H. Amiable and
nosed Gentlens in who had i..st spoken, should be
• indeu of cl.eir pr tenSii ns, when they presumed
school every body w:io difLred with them...-.
Hay, hear.)
Mr. PONSONBY rose tosorder, and said—" I
• el, Sir, whether disorde.,l.y language was
led belete, although inadvertent expressroas might
bait been dropped, but 1 AM C(lViilCed it :las been
Isfil now. The Hon. Gentlenrin, when he use's the
!old schooling, is pe:ilisps unaware of the force of
D'ulattgticto
Mr.& kORTLEIrdid not mean to use 'dim-
:X(l47l4y
imelangu age, but the term " school" was the
which he thought applicable to tie line
Puled by some Gentlemen opposite. When those
reacted with Ministers were stigmatised as the
takes of Government, lie felt himself authorised to
too with the po•rase he had used.
Lord EBR INGTON was not aware that the

lords" minions of Government" had been used.
Mr. S. WORTLEY thought he heard such an
amnion last night. The Honourable Gentleman
to proceeding to advert to the mode of proceeding
h_lety adopted towards the Member fur Devon (Sir
1. Ackland), when he was interrupted by cries of
16 qvition."
Mr. ROBERT WART) then resumed, and ex-
fhed that when he talked of Gentlemen being a
itali he merely meant that they were leagues loge.
kt in the opinions of one of their party. He de-
!bled generally the military arrangements of the',
Ike Establishment, which were, however, greasy'
laggetated in some of their items by Gentlemen op.
C. With refetence to the jealousy which was
k (ihservel towards a standing army, it was worth
le consikring, as a matter of history, that when
Darmics were in existence, and when a struggle
Popular rights arose, the army which asserted po-
t privileges was the army of the Crown ; and
Which over thew the constitution was the' one
, led by Parliament, It had been indeed said 12y a
ill.* Lord, that a conspiracy was formed to estab.
4 military despotism-
3114ircl FOLKESTONE denied that he had made
:lan assertion ; lie did indeed say that the effect
law Fre4lit sysiem vas the establishment of a /Ali-
;ill fteli3R—lre had said nothing as. to the designs
oie who were parties to it-..lie merely spoke as
alts effect.
ih•
WARD was ready to leave out the wo-d con-
-14% but certainly the jet of the Noble Lord's
itt
tthi" W4l, that the eil;!cr, and indeed the object,
. ---"! Militates was to establish a -despotism its the

....
Wintry. Of this ratnitottlaisfirdon be would on!?'
say, that he clicinotbelieve it; and it was impossible,
for him to meet it in any other way thin by a nega- ,
tire es strong as the assertion itself. After .a war of
twenty-five years duration, nothing was more natural
than that..the Officers should retain many of their
military habits, and should not at once return to the
class of citizens. He therefore saw nothing alarm-
ing orimeroper in Officers wishing to keep up their
old anociatiuns, and exercising the same right as
tradesmen and professional men did every day, in
forming societies where they might meet together,
and talk over their former exploits. He adverted to
the necessity of protecting the forts and arsenals of
the kingdom, which would be more cheaply protected
by the military than by the civil power. 13:sides the
naval arsenal at Chatham had been much enlarged;
it was altogether a little kingdom within itself. The
works had cost a million of money—(Criee of Ittor).
—Were they to be abandoned to dilapidation in peace?
Was Woolwich, he would ask, where there was a de-
pot of arms and military stores for 200,000 men, to
be protected by a few watchmen ? The Honourable
Member than alluded to the restoration of Charles H.
and asked whether it was not on the ground of legi-
timacy ? The same princ:ple had been applied to
the family of the Bourbons ; and he did not see how
Gentlemen opposite could dispute its propriety. Upon
the whole, the establishment. now proposed was ab-
solutely necessary for the protection of the country
and our colonies, and he trusted the House would
feel no difficulty in voting it. '
Mr. JOHN SMITH -began with complimenting
the Noble Lord (Folkstnne) on his eloquent, manly,
and truly constitutional speech, which, he hoped,
would have that weight to which it was so justly en-
ticket, He wished, however, to say a few words on
the financial system of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
When the Prince Regent's Speech was read from the
Chair, he had heard words of a most extraordinary
nature, and which could have been introduced merely
for the sake of deceiving the country. his Royal
Highness was made to say, that the trade and com-
merce of the United Kingdom were in a most flou-
rishing situation ; but he appealed to every man
within these walls-, (and there were many of the first
importance in the City of London), . whether this
statement was correct ? There never had been'a pe-
riod, with tne single exception of the year 1810, in
which greater commercial distress had prevailed in
every part of the country. An account had been
laid on the table of the emoutst of the exports of last
year, ending in October, contrasting it with that of
1814. It appeared that there was an excess, but the
inference which the Right Hon. Gentleman drew
from it was most false. He would refer him to the
year 1810, a year of the greatest commercial enter-
prise, but at the same time one of the utmost disas-
ter. The Right Hon. Gentleman ought not to have
put such language into the month of the Prince Re-
gent. He (Mr. Smith) had stated, two years ago,
that there was a delusion in the House with respect
I to our finances ; and he was now convinced, that un-
less Government kept up the whole of the war taxes,
we had no revenue to apply to our peace establish-
ment. If there were not an Income Tax, not merely
at five per cent. but at ten per cent. we had not the
means of supporting the establishment now proposed.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose to perform a
duty which be was anxious to have discharged at a
much earlier bout, namely, that of protesting against
a measure which, in his judgment, would lead to the'
substitution of a military Government, instead ef the
free Constitution of this Country. He had lissened
with the utmost admiration to the forcible, electueut,
and constitutional speech of the Noble Lord : it c 0..-
tained (said the Hon. Gentleman) more old English
t.pirit, and more sound old English principles, than
any speech that I ever delivered within these walls—
(et kiosk )-1 mean, than a iy that I ever heard deli-
vered. lie would leave his Majesty's Ministers to
; defend themselves otgainst the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman ( Nlr. Ward), and in his view of this sub-
ject lie would not enter into any controversy with
the_ Right 11.11. Genilem to (M.. Peel), who .had
stated, as ;he resnit of his opioions. that Ireland
could not be governed by the eyed Power. Ile ho-
noured the sincerity, the.Catitlent, and the prudence .
of his observations ; tint he could nut forbear to state
i is conviction. that the present unhappy state of that
part of the Uaited Kingdom might be traced to the
eepery Lews, which had deprived the people of
proper guides and leaders. There were only.two
countiies in Europe, England and Sp tin, where into-
'enlace ex;.ted : lo: brought ;hem together with
regret, and condo not mention them without a blush.
TM: Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Yorke)'
had state.!, that the revolution was the source of a
. qandiog army in this kingdom ; but this was not the
fact. Oliver Cromwell (continued the Honourable
Member) was the founder of a standing army, and
he employed it to expel the representatives of the
people from this House, and to dace your prede.
cessor, Sir, from the chair. Charles H. on his Testa
ration, preserved as much of that army as he coulli
James II also kept up standing armies ; but it was
one of the principal points that were settled at the
revolution, that they should exist only for a year,
and depend entirely on the breath of Parliament.—
Such was the history of standing armies; and after
a period of one hundred and thirty years, his Ma.
jesty's Ministers now proposed. for the first time, to
withdraw them from the coturoul of the Legislature.
The annual grant of money was now proposed only
for a violation of the Constitution, and to keep up a •
greater army than James 11. had in his hands. He
agreed with the Right Hononrable Gentleman, that
with respect to this establishment, it was a question
of degree and ;mount. Belt he complained that Mi.
nisters had said it was to depend only on necessity;
it ought also to depend on the "spirit of the Constitu-
tion. and that question ought to be decided before the
consideratiOn of coloVes and garrisons. • Gentlemen
on his side were said to be guilty of calumny, in sta.
tipg that there was an intention of raising a military
despotism ; but he believed, that with regard to po-
pulation, the present establishment was greater, by
40,000'men, than the military establishment of France,
compared with the number of her people. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had begun-with quoting the
fatal rife is of a low peace establishment in the years
1744 and 1779; and he (Sir James Mackintosh) had
heard with astonishment that a late Minister, in 1793 i
hid regretted his reduction of the standing army.
He was fully assured that no such Sentiment had
hten expressed by that • ißuittriuus character; but

,114;Ai— a it •
bait It would tare been a most absurd pro-
position.* Did any roan think that 10,000 men more
or leas would have had the slightest influence on the
great contest which we were afterwards obliged, •to
maintain ? As well might a farmer, at the foot of
Vesuvius, lament that he had not added a foot or two
more of wall to his fence, to prevent the irruption
the mountain. If we were now to have so large an
establishment, what would it be when France was re-
stored to herself. and proposed to revenge her humi-
liated state ? This was not a country which required
military establishments to keep up a nsilitary-spirit
in the people. 011 English liberty, low peace-srata-
blisliments, and a stern House of Commons, had
made us victorious at Blenheim and Waterloo, and
the same constitutioml system would always provide
us with Churchills ;rid Wellesleys.
Mr. W. POLE sai•.!, Gentlemen must admit that
some standing army o•ight to be kept up, and if they
did not deny that position, the question .vas at an end
Broad the constittrion, and must be considered only
with reference to amount and degree.
• Sir- FRANCIS BURDE l'T said, that he was
sorry to rise at so late Ail hour of the night, but he.
felt this to be a subject of such vital importance, that
he should feel wanting in his duty if he did not take
his stand with the Noble Lard who had preceded
him, and who had so ably given his opinion. The
Right Hon. Gentle Man who had just sat down, had
repeated with a very triumphant air, that it was quite
absurd to suppose that no standing army was neces-
sary ; and that the natural consequence was, that we
must go into a Commitore to investig tie the sulaj.cct.
But this triumphant argumrnt, he, contended, was
erroneous; for nothing was more common than the
mode now adopted. Supposing a Mill intended to
buy an estate, hot the price of Ciat estate was so ex-
orbitant that he was obliged to td-ct the proposal
entirely, without eataing into any particutas as to
the goodness or badness of the estate, was he not
competent tea do it ? (Hear, hear.)—This then was
exactly a case in point. Minisoos had made a pro-
position for a standing army of such an amount, and
of such an exorbitant. nature. as at no former period
any Minister would have dared to make. We had,
therefore, no occasian to go inte any detail, or to
make any further inquiry ; we took our stand on the
broad principle of the exorbitancy of the demand.
We cared not what case was made out, or wit:tide:ails
wean entered into, when in the outset a proposition
was made inconsistent with the liberties of the country.
. It had been said, " Perish our commerce, let our con-
stitution live;" but he would now say, "Perish the
military establishment, let our constitution live."—
The Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke before the
Right Hon. Gent!eni in who had just sat down. had
referred to pages of hist.o.y, and had asked eiliethr
it could be said that Charles 11. was the legitimate
sovereign of the coultry ? He was legitimate because
he was chosen by the will of the people,
.and inched
to the Throne by tie Parliament of the country, and
not like Louis XVIII. who obtained the Throne by
the bayonet and military tore?. It had also been said
by the same Rig'it Hon. Gentleman, that it was Oli-
ver Cromwell who ha..l dissolved the Parliament, and
had first set up that military despotism so much ab-
horred; but this asset non, :.e contended, was not
founded in fact ; for what did Cornwell do ? The
whole amount of the army kept up for England, Ire-
land, and Scotlind, in tito,t to; bulent times, was
only 2,5,000 men. If we looked hack into the p.2ges
of history, and referred to all the tyrannies that ever
existed, it would be seen that never was there so:th
an establishment as the present. rife Roman loupe-
rial guard was but 1'2,000. the .14nissaries of Con-
stantinople amounted to only I:4000 men, and the
whole despotism of Bonaparte was kept up and
supported by 40,000 melt, tot ming his imperial guard.
Were these 100,000 m.. 1 proposed to be kept tip an
England, Ireland, and her colonies, a mere chimera,
a driu,ion ? Was this immense force to be considered
as nothing ? . He had always maintained the
of B illngbroke, that 100 national troops within the
walls wee more dangerous than 100,000 out of them.
&good deal had been said about not attributing
, motives to Any man btu those w hich were of the must
pine nature: he perfectltagreed that the deCency of
debate compelN every one not to impute.to any man
within the walls of the House any motives but suds
as were the must public. and least hostile tb the inte-
rests of the country. The decency of debate com-
pelled this; yet if he should be guarded by the same
scruples out of the House, he should deserve to be
considered as a. fuol and a hypocrite. If any con-
stitutional jealousy was entertained against this most
scandalous and enormous proposition, we were to be
taunted by Gentlemen on the other side with main-
taining idle chimeras. It had been also stated. that
we had got rid of the bugbear of Bonapat te, and we
had heard an eloquent episode, complaining of a
fresh bugbear its the power of Russia. For his part,
he confessed that he had no apprehensions of the
kind ; he slid not.conceive that their was any danger
that this country would be so soon plunged into a
new war ; but, at all events, he would wish to know
why this .cauatry was to .be mixed with the other
Powers of Europe ; why we wire to be enslaved be.
cause other ceentri,..: were enslaved ? • What he most
heartily wished was to reinstate this country in its
foriner freedom. Another of those forcible argil.
went: which had. been made use of by the other side
was, " What I atter having gone so far, should we,
relax in our exertions, and plainly confess our
weakness, that we were incompetent to be on the
• saute footing with. the other Powers ?" This reminded
him of a story of a great hero, who, it was said, after
having fought a great battle, was afraid to take off
his armour, for tear of strewing some defect or weak-
ness. Bpi where, he.would ask, was the harm of
taking off this armour which had been so long worn
in the field of battle ? Where was the fear of now
meeting with a foe, excepting indeed from the Bout-
bon family, who had been so industriously set upon
I the throne ? It had been further urged, in the same
ingenious strain,. that there might be a resurrection
of the French army ; but whether it was meant that
those French soldiers who were killsd in the battle of
Waterloo were to be called from their graves, or that
the devil should lend his wings to assist Bonaparte in
his flight from St. Helena-to head these men so risen,
he knew not; bat what he was afraid of, what he
most dreaded, was the grievous distresses of the con-
try, the national debt, and the immense peace esta-
blishment; these were subjects which called fcir just
alarm; and retrenchment should be the word. in every
Englishman's mouth. This was not the time when

.;

we should be amused by idle stories of rent' rreetions
and insurrections without the least foundation. or the
least pretence to truth or accuracy. Ali Honourable
Gentleman, ..vho had spoken early in the deb ate, hid
dwelt much up m the degradation of the lieu!, if
they were disbanded. Were gre ladiers, it was asked,
.to return to that degrading employment of dustmen
:m coal heavers ? lie should he very glad to see
them in such situations; and he knew of no emplay-
ment, however low or degrading it mig!it to some
appears which was not entitled to be r..speeted by
the greatest men in the country.—Ufear, kw', kill.
As to what had been said about grtnaditos turning
scavengers and dustmen, he believed that tiere were
pars •as in much higher ranks of society who were
quite as well inclined to do dirty work ! (thar.)—
it was notorious that the Guards were ern Anyvd an
common work in town ; and it was not t' ou .1:t dis.
cieditable. What was said about dignity was all
sham pretence, and must tail of exciting symp ithy.
lithe merits orsoldiers deserved the continuance of
pay after disbanding them, he ,hold not olia,•ct to
that. But the great expenses of these establishments
went to other people, whish he was for saving.
though he would reward the soldier. There was a
set of men coke everlooked—the Midshipmen, who
must be considered as Gentlemen, and haJ scienti.
fie education, were turned adrift up'.n the world.—.
Though frieni!ly to economy. he was no enemy to
ress 'ed., but he was so to a detrimental sye.
tem. Ti' S:...:..tary of State for Ireland had drawn
such a lamentaole and disgraceful picture of Ireland,
as slice: ad it to he out of the state or a civilized
ciety. Yet Ireland was not menti-nted in the speech
froni the Throne, which was a sin of omission as cul.
pable ac a sin of commission. By °inkling all men.
lion of Ireland, it ni;glit lie supposed that Ireland
was allade.l to as well Etagl.nd, wham the non.
fishing" state of co.,iitnerce was spoken of. 11.4
did it happen that near the ciose of !.he Antes i.
Call war, when the combine] fleets were riding in tile
Channel, and threatening invasion—when Ireland
was without troops, she people ruse as one man,
With Lord Charlemont at their head, and decanted

the enemy from his threatened attempt to lend t
—But the 'whole case was not 1,41 open t it
mainly rested on the illicit disti:lation of whisky.
—So inadequate were the causes assigned I We
were to keep down Ireland by the sword, to pre.
vent illicit distillation. This ha was unwilling to
agree to. The troops were stationed forth,. purpose
in Ireland in several hundred different positions. As
to this great question of immorality, he apprehended
there was no prohibitioo to the people to buy what
he might call the Government whisky. Tne more
they drank that, at a high price and inferior quality,
end thereby paid the duties so much the better, and
then we should indeed hear of the flourishing. stare of
the revenue. This was keeping up a sham force for
morality, and a real one for revenue. He had been
told that this illicit whisky was se mulch superior, that
it was drank at the table of the Viceroy, (hear,) and
that the officers commanding the detachment would
not drink the Government whisky.—(Laugh.)—But
why not remove the cause of ail this evil, and do as
was done by the Commutation Tax respecting tea.
of which, till the duties were removed, the smuggliese
could not be stopped ? By economy alone we mild
alleviate the binthens,Und dispense with this whisky
revenue. Bot this subject demanded consideration
by itielf, and he shouts! pursue it no farther. Toe
e:tablisliwent to be maintained in Englaod was o f
greater importance : as to increase of popolation, he
' thought that argurnJot applied the other way, though
it hod been said that the army could not prudently be
kept, even on the proposed footing, without having its
outposts in France, where. by the bye, they were to be
employed in keeping down the people of France.—
A greater population should require less military
force. It was rather on the militia, en the volunteers,
and on the affection of the people, that Government
should depend to maintain the Chiotitution, and to
defend the country against the attacks of foreign ene.
uhes—(hear.) Then the great number of our cola-
nies was urged as a reason fora great torce. If there
was no apprehension of insurrection in the .colonies,
he could see no reason fur this. On what other
ground could danger be apprehended ? Never, since
England was Engiand, had' there been so little pre-
tence, at home or abroad, for an increased militiay
peace establishment. A few ships of war would protect
our islands. Who could or would attack us? Why
have the colonies, if they only brought difficulties t
He wished now to take his stand against a plan which
would alter the Constitution. If, this measure was
necessary this year, in what year would not circum-
stances be foUnd to induce its continuance ? What
was called temporary would be made permanent.—
In old times, when the. martial spirit of the country
was as high as at present, though unmixed with any
fopperies, there was no such thing as a Standing
Army. When the Spani.h Ambassador expr.:sseJ
his astonishment to Queen Elizabeth at seehig her
going among her subjects without any guards, she
pointed at the people. and said to him—" These are
the guards of tbe,Crown of England."—(Near, hear,
hear.)--lie trusted the House would reject the mo.
Lion. He trusted they would say to his Majesty's
Government—" This is so monstrous a propositiou
which you have made tat, that we will not listen to it.
Model something fit for the Parliament of England
to consider, and then we will enter into details of the
subject, and determine what relaxations and what
modifications ought to take place ; but we at once
reject the plan which you offer, as the adoption of
which would be to pot the seal to the des:ruction of
the liberties of the country."—(Hoer, hear, hear.)
Mr. PIM ay Sir F. BURDETT mutually explained.
Mr. TIER EY said, that ell that eloquence, know-
ledge of history', and honest English feelings could do.
had been attempted. He participated in them, but
should not rake up the time of the house by weaken-
log their effect. He had suggested a call of the
House, because, if evor there was a question that con.
corned the great landed interest, it was. the present.
Now they bad a full attendance, and to that great
body he particularly desired. to address a few words,
without going deep)), into the subject. He hoped to
shew aprina facie case against this large establishment,
which at behoved Ministers to answer. He could not
do so, if he did not briefly notice the state of out
finances first. He could skew the absolute necseski
of real economy. We had for near 25 years eoo.
tended for the overthrow of the military domination
France, and bad at last met with success that ex%
creded ;he hopes of the most sanguine. We had de-

I

~.

. ~.
~''~"-..

mer ten millions, would make up fifteen and a half,
while the Right Hon. Gentleman had calculated on
twenty.. The Right Itinourable Gentleman knew
as well as Nana!, that Ireland, instead of contribu•
ting three millions, must throw itself, upon us for
support ; and thus so much more would be added to
our exigencies. We had been told-that this demand
for 20 millions of money, would not be a permanent
demand ; but it was admitted, after deducting the
90,000 men statiored in France, chat there was to be
a permanent establiihment of 111,000 men. Now,
in order to compare this establishment with that of
1.791, we must deduct for the New Colonies 23,000
men, which would leave 85,000; 25,000 for Ireland,
which notil.l leave 60,000 ;in short, result of the
papyri on the table she wed that there would be an
excerehng of 17,000 in this peace establishment over
that of 1791. N.iw, was not this a /grime facie case
apt would establish a sufficient ground for alarm ?
And ought we not to pray his Royal Highness the
Prince 4egent to order that other and far different
estimates be produced ? Secretary at War, in
the luminous statement which be ILI made of the
disposition of the forces, had divided that subject
into four branches—England, Ireland, the Old, and
New Colonies ; after what had fallen from Members,
whose authority he could not doubt, be might admit
that so much was necessary for Ireland ' • but not for
I year, (that would be the way to remove Ireland from
the attention and remembrance of the House.)—
He thought such a force should be granted only for
the exigency of the present moment. As for En-
land, he was utterly unable to conceive the grounds
on which the force should be so much increased. If
the ;Stipulation was greater, had it proportionably de.
generated in Spirit ? On the head of the new cola.
nies, he was still less able to-comprehend why we
were called upon for an army to support islands, at
the very moment when we had reduced our navy,
Which was the more obvious defence for such pates.
ikons, But this convinced him the more that our
navy was reduced for the sole purpose of applying•
more money to the army. He deprecated this ne-
glect of our peculiar constitutional force, and would
ask whether the navy, by any conduct during the
late war, had justified the apparent imputation, that
we deemod them unable or unwilling to defend us ?
It there was danger, a !air proportion bad not been
maintained between army and navy. If there was
noalanger, why did we keep up an army ? With re-
gar to the old colonies, the Secretary at War had pro-
bably relied on the opinions of military men; and if
be went into a Committee, the utmost we could do,
would be to sift the Secretary at War! But the
House,'in such matters, ought itself to take the depo-
bitions of military men; and had they done so at a
former period, Walcheren had never been attacked.
ill, opinion of military men ought to be asked by
the House itself. Among other statements, the No-
ble Lord had mentioned one thousand men stationed
at the Cape, for the purpose of resisting what be
teamed the native,; fur it would have sounded too
ridiculous to have said in plain ttb the Hottentots !
The Noble Lord' had very probably made due in.
quiry at the Hone Guards; but inquiry at the Horse
Guards was very diffeteu‘from a formal examination
before that House. In the former cue, it was almost
impossible that they whose opinions were requested,
should not gravitate towards thexentre of influence.
But we bad been told, " we were to provide against
tut ute contingencies; we were to be preps:W."
1-Jc mustobserve, that the present were no prepara-
tions 1. This was not a rehearsal, but a performance ;
we were cursed with all flic prigifs pomp, yid clr-s

steered thif Power with Which, it was said, no other'
nation was safe.- Hight he sir might be not, then,
congratulate. the House pet this great event ?
If there was. now no danger, the army was too large;
if there was impending danger, the army appeared
too small. He must assume that Europe was now
cafe, and England in security. He would say that
the revenue had been declining for the last sir month,,
and-oncsurplus was so small, that our finances could
scarcely he in a worse way. The difference between.
July the sth and Jannarylhe sth last, was from
4167,400,000 to £66.00(),000. He should not then
eater into any details of the different branches in
which the revenue failed. The Consolidated Fund
Was £39,308,000, and there were if e 2,700,000 of per-
=anent War Taxes, making a total.of 442,060,000.
Deduct the interest of debt. £37,758,000, including
Sinking Fund, &c. There were also the Austrian
loan of £400,000, and the debt of Portugal, and va-
rions charges, to the amount ui one million five hun-
dred thousand pounds. and the interest on Exchequer
Bills. The £20,001,000 outstanding must be at 5 per
tent. the £6,000,000 to be issued' at 4 per cent.
Making £1,240,000. There was a permanfntchargeof
at 40,498.000. He threw out any thing that might
aggravate the statement. The total remaining of all
the.produce of taxes was £1,819.000 for service from
the consolidated fund. Thb only other source was
derived from what was called the annual amount tif
taxes. He reasoned on the ordinary way of rnaicini
up the ace .unts for the last five or six years Now, ail
Other resources must be of a novel k nd: £2,700,000

of war taxes, be it recollected, were already made
permanent ; hat there wall the falling off, he }►ad
noticed ot 411.000.000 in the revenue. But this re-
duction could not be a reduction of one million out of
Seven. but of one out of nine millions ; and he did
not believe it would be possible out ot the nine to
procure more than six ; he did not believe that the
present taxes could ever remain at the same rate, for
the war expenditure -contributed in a degree to re'
venue; but now, when even that source had failed.
and when every mode of supply was cut off by the
accumul ited distresses of the crun.ry, he was per.'
/traded that it would be impobsible to levy taxes to
the same amount Admitting, however. that ten
psi Ilions could be raised by the means proposed, all
that remained was the Property Tax, and that would
Dot be equal' to the return of last year; tor it must
be remembered, that last year's return was in tact
the return of the year preceding ; and though the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the
• amount for the SO January, 1816, exceeded, by more
than a milliOn. the amount returned for the Bth Jan.
1815, yet he could prove incontrovertibly, that the
amount of the year ending in July 1815, was less, by a
ntillion.than the amount Ot the year ending inJulylBl4.
He would vesture to assert, that the utmost the Pro-
perty Tax would produce next year, would not exceed
eleven millions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
taken the half of that tax, which, added to the for.

-

F.?

cam stanee.of war was no prey se*
future evils, bat present elthatsdoa and ruin; and if
ever war-did come, there nittselse a stop to the pay-1
mast of the interest of natidnal debt-we malt de.'
frond our creditors -we must sink in bankruptcy.-
(Loud cries of Hear, hstr.).6-41e did not wish to
prevent a proper establishment, but the question was,
what should be deemed Inch ? 'The Secretary at
War had said, that only 4600,000 would be saved,
if 25,000 men were to be struck off the list ; for bis
part, he could not cotnpreheed this statement ; but it
we could save only 46, we were bound in duty to
exert every effort for doing M. Ministers themselves
had stated, that every possible saving should be
made. Ministers loudly proclaimed the necessity of
economy, and their desire to adopt plans for carrying
it into execution; but all the savings we had yet
heard of were to be created by an increase of salaries.
hear.)-Could • any set of Men then be
viewed with more distrust and jealousy than such an
AdministratiOn ? Could the country Gentlemen of.
England, who had been assembled here by the call
of the. House, Efface any reliance upon them, or con.
cur in their measdres, when the most prominent
points of their policy hid been a bribery of the Tax.
gatherers, and a pampering of the Army ? He.
wished the Noble Lord were in his place, that he
might now remind him of what passed un a former
'occasion, when he proposed the measure that had
procured so full an attendance in the House.-..
The Noble Lord then tauntingly told him, that the
country would not be interested in what was slid ,*^,
done on the side of the House on which he generally
sat. This prophecy had not been nitrified. Tor'
country had been roused, and bestirred itself froisi
one end of it to the. other ; and he was convinced chat
many of the country Members h..d come up charged
with thelentiments and tesrs entertained by the die
tricts to which they bel.ineed The inconsistency ,4
Ministers had been apparent; and they could ii.,t ex.
.pect confidence in their statements while they then-
selves contradicted them ; nor could they rationally
anticipate that the Gentlemen who composed this
House would vote for such extravagant Estimates
while no real danger could be pointed out, and *hilt
it was considered that Ministers themselves wished,
before they thought of their establishments, to lull us
to the most profound repose. 'There was nothing
110 W but black spots in the horizon, (for Ministers
were still determined to look into the clouds) -(a
laugh,)-and upon the simple declaration of tie ea.
isteece of such spots we were required to encumber
ourielvca with taxes, and to incur the danger of losing
oar liberties. He concluded by imploring the Mem-
bers of the House, who had been sent up by their
constituents to attend to their interests and the in.
wrests of the empire, to weigh well what they were
required to do before they lut themselves to the sup.
port of Ministers ; to consider what account they
could render to their own minds, their friends, to the
people of Great Britain. and to the world, if they
adopted the course proposed by the Administration,
and contributed so powerfully to overthrow the liber-
ties and the constitution of their country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
rose amid cries of ‘4Q•testion I" The Resift Hon.
Gentleman had rested his argument on tw,, wounds:
first, the assumed security of the country ; and se-
condly, the desperate state of its finances. is to
the first, he entirely concurred; tne country MSS cer-
tainly in a state of as complete security, as, under
the circumstances of the world, was possible; but it
would not therefore be wise tor us to repose on the
laerels which we had earned, foolishly careless of
those measures by which alone peace was 10 be con-
solidated, and its full blessings to be obtained:-
(Ifter).-.He referred to the history of Switsersand,
to chew whit fate was to be expected
by a country
in which the Government, giving way to a notion of
fancied security, neglected precautions dictated by
pt udence and required by circumstances. It the
House were to adopt what the R:ght Honourable
Gentleman and the Honourable l3stronet opposite
called constitutional doctrine, the question would be
brought within a very small : for a Stand-
ing Army would, in every case, be excluded, however
great the danger, however wise its support. He
then followed the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Tierce y) into his financial details. The' total *swum
of the Estimates on the table was 49.000,000; and
it remained yet to be sheen in what branches reduc-
tions could prudently be made. Being unwilling to
intrude upon the time of the House at so very bite an
hoer, he thought he could considerably abridge what
he would have to say, by quotinit, as to one branch
of theisobject, the authority of a high military charac-
ter, which could not fail to have weight in that Manse.
It was that of Sir Ralph Abercrombie. whoia 1797
(by a document which be now held in his hand) gave
it as his opinion, that the force necessary at that time
for our West India colonies was 7,500 men, including
artillery. Now by the present estimates, the face to
be stationed in the same islands included in the esti-
mate of Sir Ralph Abercrombie was one third less,
namely, 5000 men. - (Near, hear.) As to the navy,
the fact had been repeatedly stated, that the while
body of Midshipmen who had served their time had
been promoted, or angered to continue on service as
supernumeraries. (liter, hear.) Comparing the
Naval Establishment now with that of forme; years
during peace, it was not diminished in a greater pea
,portien than the Army.
Lord COCHRA.NE shortly addressed the House
on the subject of Malta, anti contended that there was
no necessity for the fares there; and, acquainted as
he was with foreign establishments, •he considered
thine of our possessions abroad double that which was
required. Instead. of the Maltese having those situa-
tions on the island, which were under the direction
of his Majesty's Minnlatrip they were filled by persons
at home ; and a Noble Lord on the other side pos.
seised there a situation of 47000 a year. He re-
marked, in regard to Midshipmen, that they were
not provided for, except i few in commissioned ships,
and it required the great political influence of great
men to procure them this advantage. He thengbui
also, that if taxes to this extent were raised, they weld
inevitably be the ruin of this country.
Mr. S.WORTLEY thought a very strong =lied
beeaput by the Right Nondurable Gentleman (Mr.
,Tierney) on the Government, which was entitled to
attention, though he (Mr. S. Wortley) certainly was
deairogs of the House going into a Committee. He felt
hima oblijged, and !re believed the- country were
obliged, to his Majesty's Ministers, for those exertions
which they had made ; but he must tell them, that,

.

r .

• . .
Wit tittle taithistater4 this iiisaipliedisi; Ro
regretted that the excess a the Civil List Expendi-
ture should come upon the People, and lie contenJed,
that there ought in tithe dines to be no increase of sa-
laries. There was not, hoivever, any Government in
which he had more confidence than he had in the pre.
sem I and he was sure they had nothing to do for the
satisfaction of the country but to pursue a system of
economf. '
Mr. KENNET r wished to ask the Chaticellor of
the Exchequer one question, whether it was true that
within a short period the salaries of six Collectors in
Scotbnd had not been increased ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
intimated his intention of answering that question

to-morrow.

' After a Jew words from Mr. S. WORTLEY, Mr.
Flamm, and Mr. PROTHER9II, the latter of whom
voted for the question, the House divided.—Ayes,
241 ; Noes, 121—Majority for referring the Esti-
mates to the Committee, 120. _

A convenadon then took place reverting Mr. Warm:es
motion, In which Mr. Bootion.tst, Mr. ht A NKLAND LEWIS,

I.Mr. PONSONRY, Sir G. HaoTneu t C, and 1.1,rd PALMERSTON,
I participated : the ressilt was, tbat Mr. Wes rea N, In consequence
of the exhausted state of the tram its contimird and pro•
meted debates, agreed to postpone bit motion till *I ursday ;
Lord Coestaati a signifying, that his own motion against Lord
Ext.assoaotiou, which bum' for that thy, could not occupy
much time. The army estimates come on, in committee, on
Friday, and as it was understood, would also occupy Monday.
The house then, at Four u'lluck, adjourned to this day.
• •