Star.
London, England, 1828-04-18 00:00:00

exist, the lowest average of daily wages was a shilling.
Iln seventeen sootherh'counties the Ow. rate teas 15s. a
bead on the Whole popistatiOn; !Min YWenty inirthern
counties thb rate was but six shillings a head—and
the condition of the peasantry Was hifinitely superior to
the southern counties. In the seventeen counties where
the abuses existed, the rate was above 41s. on the rack
rent: in the twenty counties where the peasant and the
poor wete in a better state, the tate was but 2s. 6d. on
the rack rent. This proved that a better system would
benefit both rich and poor. The law expenses in the
prosecution of vitae amounted to one-half the poor-
rate, making the whole for the kingdom at large not
less than 9,000,0001. All the evidence showed that,
where wages were high, the poor-rates we,e low;
and Whet* pdor-rites were high the wages were low.
This showed that it was the interest of all classes that
the wages of the Meurer should be sufficient to keep
him in comfort. The Committee hid stated that the
rats of wages thirst depend on the proportion of the
demand to the supply. How then was that proportion
to be Maintained iis the best state ?—simply by not legis-
lating on the subject--by not giving a bounty on the
;11 roduction of a supply of labour, which is done by sup-
orting able bodied labourers: The Committee reported,
at men who only received a small pittance from the
poor rate married for the purpose of obtaining a better
/notation; sad from this cause the value of labour
Was diminished. the demand for the labour of a coun-
try depended on its Capital, and that could not be
increased by Aet of. Parliament ; hod yet many Acts
implied the suppositibh that it could be increased;
for by enacting that employment should be provided
for all able-bodied peepers, it in effect said, that em-
ployment timid be provided to any reqnired extent.
But whenevek employme'n't was provided by means
Of a poor-rate, it threw Out of employment an equal
portion of %dependent labour, and by this tendency
'of the Poor Law's to keep the supply above the de-
Mind, they hecessarily reduced the wages of labour.
Nothing, however, could be so wild as to attempt
to limit population; but it was a very different
thing to take dir the bounty by which it was un-
nathrally increased. He had had no intention of,
pushing the pill he brought in last Session through
the House; but be adhered to the principle, and I
proposed to -come back to the spirit of the 43d of I
Elitabeth, Which Wis recommended by all the Corn-
Mitten; that was gradually to repeal the practice of,
providing for able bodied paupers. It might be thought
h hardship to Yeti* relief to an industrious man who only
asked employment; and it was a case for which all should
wish to provide a remedy. He thought a remedy might
be provided by a species of Saving Bank, in which single
Mlle bodied then Might deposit a porticos of their
Weekly earnings—and for every four shillings they
to deposited, they should, when they could get,
Iho employment, receive a week's work or wages—
the balance to be paid by them when they became
employed' The married men to be employed by the
parish on stink Which it might undertake to perform,
but which should not be ordinary work, nor interim
with the wagesof the ordinary labourer. He would also
allow paupers who are at present married an allowance
for their childres tint a certain number—soppose five
--tine allbwitte nbt totiteod to any Who Warded after
a time to be fixed. He was not vain enough to suppose
that he could propose the best remedy for an evil that
hid grown minds at magnitude. His **feet Was to
bring its a B►ll on ilbuncl principles, and tb nsoie that it
be referred to a Select Committee, where it might receive,
improvement. the Hon. Member apologised to the
House fot the length of time he had occupied their,
attentiob, and concluded by moving, that leave be giiren
to bring in a Bill " to reform the abuses of the Poor'
Laws respetting payments made from the poor rates to,
and for able bodied labourers."

Mr. N. CALVERT seconded tbe motion.

Mr. PORTMAN said, that there was a superabund-
ant labouring copulation in Dorsetshire, which was
One of the counties censured by his Honourable Friend
and he (Mr. Portman) did not understand how theyl
could act otherwise than they had in the distribution of
the Poor-rates. The farmer bad a right, in the same
nay as the manufacturer had, to procure labour at the
cheapest possible rate. The Honourable Member then
described the way in which the Poor-rates were ad.
Ministered in Dorsetshires and said that Parish officers
had no choice..-He had no hope whatever that the
remedy proposed by the Hon. Member would reach,
the evil. He kw* that the remedy had been tried in
several parishet in Dorsetshire, and proved to be in-
efficaciouL He did not mean to oppose the motion; 1
on the Contrary, he trusted that when they came into
Committee they should be able to discover some prin.
tiple upon which a legislative remedy might be founded.
Mr. SLAggi tzplalhed.
Mr. CRIPPS Said, that after having given the most
persevering and careful attention to this important sub-
ject, he was firmly convinced that the plans recom-
mended by the Hon. Member could not be productive
of any beneficial effect. No one could deny the truismi
which bad been stated by the Hon. Gentleman; he
agreed entirely in his facts, and lamented them as much
as any one could, but he was satisfied from his own ex-
perience that no such legislation as that suggested could
effect a change. He was of opinion that no good could
be expected to arise from any radical change in the
laws; the remedy was in Gentlemen's own hands, for
it was only to be found in a careful and wise application
of the laws as they now stood. He wished the Hon.
Gentleman success in his object, but confessed that he
could see no hope of ultimate advantage froth the plan
of lessening those rates,which were undoubtedly so great
an evil.

Mr. BURRELL said, that although he had consider-
able doubt as to whether the remedy of the Honourable
Gentleman would do any good, he yet hoped he would
persevere in giving his attention to the subject, ehtil
some Mote efficacious plan suggested itself. He con•
tested that the only remedy he could see wet that of
emigration upon a large scale.
Mr. W. HORTON said, that he agreed with the Hon.
Gentleman in all his principles, but believed the only
remedy for the evils he had stated was to be found in a
**Mcleod of the etisting superabundant population, and
the liseOutagement of its future increase. It was Cleat ly
shown by the report of the Committee, that unless :time
thing Was done to check the operation of the supposed
claim of the poor to be supported out of the land, the rent
of the country must be eaten up, and all distinctiOns of
property destroyed. Unless the poor were to be supported
by the contributions of the other classes, they must be
Compelled to regulate their production of population to
the means at their command,as all other grades of society
did front the highest down to that lowest extreme whith
estate within the bandit! influence of these laws. He
*as firmly convinced that there was no remedy for the
btlil ht that of assimilating the laws of Ireland and ofl
this country upon a basis which Would secure the ne•l
relief of the poor without giving them a lien'
upon the land. lib was surprised that country Gentle.!
Men, whose very existence as a body was imininently,
threatened by the progress of this evil, should evince so
much unwillingness to consider the only remedy which

could littait it, atia chid nottink could atcotftt
rons isiaiihy trittia. bids they *girded the initiena-
,ng diner. He thought ft alts the duty of the Go-
vernment to declare what their views were upon so im-
portant a %object.
Mr. RIDLEY COLBURNE thought no. good would
arise from the proposition of the Hon. Member (Mr.
Slaney). The Act of Elizabeth never contemplated
superadundance of population ; but, if an able•bodied
Man could not obtain employment, to whom should he
look but to the parish in which he lived? While the
Hon. Member thought that no good would arise from
the proposition, he should not oppose the motion.
Mr. MONCK agreed in the opinion which had been
expressed, that the present deplorable state of the peo-
ple arose from the misapplication of the Poor Laws. In
Cumberland, at that moment, where they acted upon a
different system, the rates did not exceed eighteen pence
in the pound. The great evils of the present system
had been brought about in the South and West of Eng-
gland, by the introduction of " Pay Tables." The Ho.s.
Member had no hope that any benefit would accrue
from the motion of the Hon. Member (4r. Slaney). The
only plan which suggested itself to him, was the adop-
tion of a minimum of wages; and if a man under such-
circumstances chose to marry, he should be given to
understand that his allowance should not be increased.

Mr. Secretary PEEL admitted that the question
before the House was one of great importance, but the
more it had been studied, the greater the difficulty
attending it had been found to be. He defied any man
who had a diffidence of his own opinion to pronounce a
judgment on the subject. During the last three years
the produce of the agricultural and manufacturing dis
tricts had been greater than any three years before, yet
still the population increased. The same remark applied
to Ireland and to Scotland. The Right Hon. Gentleman
proceeded to remark, that no effectual remedy could
in his opinion, be introduced which would meet the evil
of the case; nor did he (Mr. Secretary Peel) see how
any remedy could be provided against the exercise of
mechanical st.ll. The Right Honourable Gentleman
would tender a piece of advice to the Honourable Mem-
ber (Mr. Slaney), that his Bill should embrace not one
point alone, but the general system. The law of settle-
, ment was particularly connected a ith the question of the
Poor Laws, and he thought that a great part of the evils
arising from the Poor Laws arose out of that Act of
Settlement. A peat difficulty, too, *as in making the
application to parishes generally, because they were
of a different nature. With respect to the able-bodied
poor, their labour was their capital; nor could he (Mr.
Secretary Peel) consent to deprive them of the means
of taking their labour to any market whatever, nor de-
prive them of assistance in case of need. Looking at
the extremely artificial state of the country, he would
not give any opinion on the general measure until it
was much more discussed, but in common with the rest
of the House, he returned his thanks to the Honourable
Member (Mr. Slaney) for his efforts, and wished him
the fullest success.

Mr. SLANEY explained.
Colonel DAVIES thought, as this was a question of
the greatest possible importance, it could not be ex-
pected that the grasp of any individual, either on that
(the Opposition) or the other side of the House, was
equal to carry the measure into effect. The Govern-
Went ought to originate the measure.
Mr. Secretary PEEL explained.
SLANEY explained. He had no thought of reeling lai*
ISM through the present Session of Parliament.
Mr. W. WHITMORE was free to admit that great
distress existed in some parts of England, but he did
hot believe it existed to the tXtent which had been
stated. Emigration was a subject which he did not
view with any particular degree of favour, but he still
thought that some good might be produced from it.
At the present moment there were five parishes in Sus-
Ilex—not far from Hastings, from which emigration
was going on; but at a general principle, be denied
that there *as not employment to be found for the peo-
ple. The principle o allotting the poor small gardens
to their cottages had been productive of the best effects,
and he should wish it to be generally adopted through-
bat the country. The Hon. Member hoped that the
Hon. Mover (Mr. Mattel) Would not relax in his en.
deavours to bring his labours to a successful termination.
—Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.

11111111 RATION.

Mr. WILMOT-HOlt lON rose in pursuance to his
notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate
the emigration of paupers by their parishes. The Right
Honourable Gentkitten considered that if the system of
pauperism here, and the subdivision of land in Ireland,
were suffered to p on, they must eventually have the
property of the country swallowed up by the poor.—
Emigration, it was said, would cost more money, and
the country was not in a condition to pay it. But he
denied that there would be any cost of money, where
was a strong probability of repaying what they ad-
'aimed. But even if that were not the case, he was pre-
pared to demonstrate that it would cost less to send out
paupers to the colonies, and place them in a situation of
comfort, than to keep them hese in their misery and
degradation. It appeared irons the Report of the
Committee, that 100,000 paupers, men, women. and
children, could not be lodged, led, and clothed, for less
than an average of 81. each per annum. The interest of
the money calculated at the cost of sending out that
number of emigrants was 60,0001. and they should there-
fore effect an actual saving of the difference of 240,0001.
in the first year ; but then it *as said that the cost ought
not to be defrayed by the tountry at large, but by those
who were relieved from the evil ; and that there would
be great difficulty in ascertaining who were the parties
that ought to pay it. In England there could be no
difficulty, because the Pout Rate applied an index to
the parties who would be relieved at once. In Ireland,
too, he was ready to prove that a large Poors Rate Was
actually paid in one shape or another. He should not
go more at large into this pan of the subject then, be-
cause it was his intention, during the remaining part
of the Session, to bring forward a substantive mea-
sure for a pecuniary grant, to be applied to the pur-
poses of *Migration, upon Which be should take the
sense of the House. He would only repeat his question
to his Right Hon. Friend—Whether the presence of
100,000 more labourers than thee frit a demand for
did not operate as a tax, and whether their removal
would not be a relief to the community at large, pro-
vided the vacuum was not filled up? The Right Hon.
Gentleman having concluded an extract from the Com-
mittee's Report, reminded the House how exceedingly
desirable the emigration of females must necessarily be
to a colony like New South Wales, where the dispro-
portion of their sex to the males was so extraordinary and
provetbial. He had now gone through the heads of his
Bill, and Win really unable to perceive why any Hon.
Gent. should be indisposed to give to paupers who were
inclined to emigrate the opportunity of effecting a
change, which must be so advantageous to their con-
dition. The whole of the propositions which he bad
;opened to the House, depended upon, and could only
be ilmified• by calculations. One of these proposi-
tions was, that four-fifths of the rate payers, and
lout4ltln of the laud proptimerst should be cone