Star.
London, England, 1816-06-25 00:00:00

/RIM TOWNLAND 'INN DILL.

Mr. V. FITZGERALD moved the Order of the
Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee
on the Irish-Townland Fine Bill.

Sir F. FLOOD, as an honest Irish Advocate, rose
to object to this obnoxious, oppressive, and unjust
Bill, the expense of carrying which into execution had
cost the country, during its operation, no less a sum
than At?l1,000. In five counties the expense of le-
vying lines, amounting to £170.000, cost a sum 01
£150,000. But this was not all, it punished the in-
nocent as well as the guilty, without even allowing
the former any means of proving that they were ig-
norant of the offence, and had no participation in its
commission— (Hear, hear).—lt fell hart also on
Members of that House, and on gallant Officers who
were abroad, serving his Majesty in the field, for
their estates and lands were pulled to pieces and ran-
sacked in their absence, in levying fines for crimes of
whic4 they were wholly innocent., Besides, the real
offenders always escaped, the parishes were fined,
and there the business ended, instead of the guilty
being hunted down and sent into solitary labour, or
for soldiers to Attica and the East and West Indies
—( 4 laugh).—f! this unjust. oppressive, and expo..
sive Act could be amended, he wield go into a
Committee upon it; but believing that this was im-
possible, and that the whole system of measures con-'
nected with this subject must first be' altered, he
would object to the .Speaker's leaving the Chair,
which,* however, he cordially wished he might long
enjoy in health and comfort—(iflaagh).
Mr. S FEWA RT was also of opinion that this Bill
involved the innocent in one common add indiscri-
minate punishment with the guilty ; and in a manner
in which, as it had been said, it was utterly impossi.
ble the former could establish their innocence. It
inflicted a blind punigustent of this kind, in a manner

the most severe and nnheark4. Why sboulai
illicit
distillation be punished in Ireland with a severity
unknown in any other part of the empire ?—( Hear,
hear.)—Wby did not the English China-11m of the
Exchequer, propose the application of similar mea-
sures to Scotland, where, it he (Mr. Stewart) WAS
rightly informed, this illegal practice prevailed to a
greater extent than it did in Ireland f— Hear. hear,
hear.)—Was not Iteland, he would ask, since the
Union, entitled to an equality of the privileges con-
ferred by the British Constitution; ana did not this
Bill make an unfair and direct exception in her case ?
Without an equality of laws among the people of
that country, it would be in vain to expect peace and
contentment. Of the abuse of this power, of 'trying,
fines generally, be could give a thousand instances;
he would, however, content himself with one, in
which he was himself concerned. Before he men-
tioned it, he begged, however, to state, that with a
view to cooperate in giving effect to the existing
laws, he had uniformly refused to give a lease to any
of his tenants, so long as this illicit distillation conti-
nued. The particulars of his own case, to which he
referred, had reached him this day, and were as fol.
low :—A Mr. Newman came down in the neighbour-
hood of his estate, with an escort of cavalry and in.
faniry, to enforce those fines. He went at once, and
without any ceremony, drove off his (Mr. Smwart's)
cattle, for a sum of 4428. A friend in vain inter-
posed, and urged his (Mr. Stewart's) absence attend-
ing his duty in Parliament, and, of course, his total
ignorance of any illicit distillation there. The on!y
answer to this interposition was, the cattle must be
drove, or the money paid. Iles servant procured the
amount, and saved the cattle. Others might, how.
ever, have had their whole property swept away from
a want of means to redeem it. This was the sort of

recompense Gentlemen received who had attempted
to carry the law as it stood into execution. What
encouragement was there for a man to step forward
in defence of the law, ale was thus rendered respon-
sible for the act of any good for-nothing, wandering
distiller, who thought proper to bide a still on his
demesne ? It could be put there in the dead hour of
night, either through accident or and how
could the owner of the land prove his innocence ?
What woulj be the effect of such a law in this coun-
try ?—Would the farmers of England be satisfied to,
have their property taken away in this manner ? He
was sure not; and lie was so convinced of the injus.
tice of the measure, that were not the Session so
completely advanced be would move for its repeal.
With the view, therefore, of modifying it, so far as it
were possible, he would consent to go into the
Committee ; and he would recommend the Honour.
able Baronet (Sir F. Flood) to do the same. Though
opposed to the principle of the Bill, he yet hoped for
the present to mitigate its evils ; and with that view
would make the experiment in the Committee. If
something were not done for Ireland, the conse-
quences might be more serious than some persons ima-
gioFd. He principally called the attention of the
House to the minutes of evidence given before the
Distillery Committee. They would there find such a
case made out, as he was sure would induce them at
once to repeal this Bill. The Honourable Gentle.
man concluded by entreating, on the part of his coati.
try, the most serious eonsidetation to th's measure.

Sir T. FLOOD, in explanation, consented, on the
same ground as the last speaker, to go into the
Committee.
Mr. V. FITZGERA LD concurred in the Ho-
nourable Meuiber's wish, that the minutes of evidence
to which he had adverted should be read by the
House. That Committee had expressed itself in fa-
vour of the principle of this Bill, but had recom-
mended some modifications of its provisions. It was
for the consideration of these that the House was then'
called to go into a Committer. The Right Hon.
Gentleman concluded by denying the assertion of the
Honourable Baronet opposite, that the Committee had
pronounced the principle of the Bill oppretsi re, or
that the extent of Townlands was such as he had de-
scribed.

Mr. FRENCH said, that the Committee had en-
couraged the establishment of small stills, and their
Report should have been brought up antecedent to
the consideration of the present Bill. The Honour.
able Gentleman then referred to the evidence given
in that Committee. S,veral Commissioners were ex-
amined, who were conversant with the subject. Some
were cf opinion that the duties ought to be reduced—
others qualified this opinion. It was, however, clear,
that so far from its being the interest of the gauger
to stop the present progress of illicit eiitillation, he
was clearly concerned in its extension, so long as he
had one-half of the seizures he made. From the evi-
dence before the Committee, it was clear that in
1810 and 1811, when the duties were reduced and the
fine done away, much of the evil for which they
sought to apply a remedy had been removed. But
the idea proposed by some, of allowing a certain sur-
plus produce of the licensed stills to go forth free of
duty was a chimerical sort of remedy. It would be,
in fact, setting one smuggler against another—a po.
lig that would tend to the success of both.—(Hear.)
It was in vain to suppress illicit distillation by the
present plan. So convinced was he of this, that, year
after year, he would renew the subject, until he could
at length succeed in calling the attention of the
English Members to so important a grievance—a
grievance,, the extent of which was such, that, when
once known, it must be remedied.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY said, that he did not
mean to oppose their going into the Committee,
cause he thought it extremely desirable that something
should be done to mitigate the evils at present cum-
plained of. But before they went into the Commit.
tee, he thought it extremely important that some
farther information should be given as to the nal me
of this Bill. Toe re:nedy proposed was in itself an
evil—though no doubt one evil may be necessary to
counteract a greater, it was yet essenti..l that tne na-
ture of the evil should be contrasted with that of the

leemedy. The bitter was indeed enornr,us. Whit
(Sir Samuel) wanted was, some explanation as to
'the experience of the remedy that had been applied.
Had it prevented du) evil of illicit distillation? If it
had not, then they were only adding one evil to ano-
ther. From the information he had received, he un-
derstood the remedy bad been quite unsuccessful du:
ring its' three years operation.

Mr. PEEL was willing to abide by the compari-
son of the two evils; it was indeed the fair iunv on
which the quasdou ought to rest—(//ear.) $e would
I.alsos iu conjunction with his Right Has. Friend. en-

Wattle perusal of the minutes °I AA Dittill:7.7 cr,
mince. Tt was impossible to deny that the fine,','
tern involved the innocent as well as the gully• t`.
the question was, whether that must not be
ted to, to get rid of a greater evil ? Ansi again
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had for
t
4J
at, whether it was in fact efficacious? In
upon this consideration, it was important to te.„01?;
-dates, and compare them w.th results. The Ai:: l"';
been suspended in 1810, and repealed in lsl2. .;
Was re-enacted in 1813. The revival had emaila4i'.
from the inquiry at a Committee appointed to cori
der the then state of things. A second Cntnre,ti;
had been this year appointed, to see if the n3,4i:
bad been successful ; and their decision, by a m,si:
riti of 13 to 5 was, that it would be inexpedicat t,
alter the principle of fining '1 nwnlanis. Oi court.
,
a great part of the defence of this measure
band in its efficacy. Looking at the cpteition in
view, then, they had thetesttinony in the C0m0,,,,
of the Member for Leitrim, that both in that c
and in Cavan illicit distillation had been nearly
guished, when the system of fining was reptaie.t,
that it revived immediately alter wards. In tae stn.',
Townimids it had, in fact, su.-ceedtd, and the
was chiefly limited to the larger oiler. If it could i 1
suppressed without this remedy, vf mine it tv.-ii:Jse
better. He feared not, ;cut that there only remaicej
a choice of alternatives. To chew the enormiiiii
tent of the system
.of illicit • di.tillation, it nonhl hc
only necessary for 1 irn to say, that a caraitkie,l
.83 horses carrying spirits, and escoited by a 4.,e
body of armed men, had entere,l and publidr
loaded their stock in the metropolitan town ot
It was not alone the reduction which the teven le bo,
tained by this practice that constituted the evii, int
the demoralization of the people—(flears ktar,) to.
sequent upon this lawless practice. He did bore,
upon the whole, that the measure would, under aia
the circumstances, be permitted to proceed.

Mr. FRENCH said, that he stmul.t Like an tut),
opportunity its the ensiling Session, of !Hinging tl,e
matter before the House.

Mr. BENJAMIN SHAW said, he was extremely
gratified at the sentinsenu expressed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had spuken last but one
Peel), nevertheless,
.he did nut think any other plan
could be adopted with more probability of success,
for the prevention of distillatiiin, than the reductom
of the duties on spirits. Being one of the Committee,
it was the strong conviction of lit mind that the esil,
, under the measure now proposed, so far from do
creasing, would be increased—and in this feeling It
was satisfied it would be found necessary to mot
for a new Committee early in the ensuing year. It
;had been urged that the decrease of duty would,
from the consequent reduction in the price of spirits,
; tend to the demoralization of the people. This tii.ct,
however, he conceived might be prevented, by in.
creasing the quantity of wort, an arrangement which
would have the effect of raising the price of spirits,
and, in fact. keeping it at the standard of est year.
Central MITCHELL rose, fir the purpose of
bearing his testimony to the baneful effects which :he
reduction of the duties in the course of the year MO
bad upon the morals of the people of Ireland. He har.
pened ill that year to be the Comn:arider of the dis-
trict of Arm:sgh, And was witness to 4 career of iin
morality arising► Luc of the cliev price of spirits, which
none who had not witnessed it could have creditel

Sir N. courHußsr considered that the evi-
dence before the Committee fully justified ti e neces-
sity of the fine upon Townlands.
Sir GEORGE HILL was quite satisfied that
reduction of the duty was the more direct otiose of
preventing illicit distillation ; but at tl.e same t.me a
shQuld be cousidered.how far this measure miglit'pro,
duce an effect injurious to the morals of the peopir.
Viewing this as the probable result of a reduced rite
of the duty, he felt inclined to support the pieseht
measure, although in bouir respects severe.
General HA It would nut oppose the BA but
begged to obsei ye. that the system of Townlaad that
was peculiarly oppressive. He had received variots
letttss descriptive of the hardships resulting tion! tees
plan, in which nutty innote,,t and industrious persons
were deprived of their lit. le all, to pay the floes which
had been intim-ed by those of whom they had sot the
slightest knowletke.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH thought it recoliAllY
hand that the innocent s:tould suffer for the gitilt!,
and suggested whether an arrangement could not hit
made, whereby the op ration of the tines incurred by
illicit distillers might be confined to a narrower ct rn•
pass thm at preNenr.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, that the Townlnuls
were the smallest divisions of land in Ireland In
most cases these divisions did not exceed two hun-
dred acres.

The House then went into the Committee, and the
Bill was read clause by cialise.
Upon that clause being, read, which made it a in7s-
,f, me:inor for the first offence of illicit distillation—
General STEWART proposed to extend the pa.
nishment in this case to seven yeArs' transportatioa.
Mr. PEE LE opposed this suggestion as ton se•
vere, considering the prevalence of the nffenre, an!
the unfortunate habit of drinking spirituous liptais
which existed in haunt].

Ittr. STEWART thought that severity. to 11 c
few would be mercy to the many.

The CHANCELLOR o f the EXCHEQUI",it
thought that the law as it stood would be qui.r s.
fitient to prevent the evil, without having r: c, tirse'n
the severe measure propnsed by the gidlant Ceat
Mr. V. FfTZGER A I.D s.iid, that many C ..t-
-tlemen had requested him to propase a clause to 111,
effect suggested by the Honourable Gentleman (M-.
Stewart) ; but f.:r the reasrms wsigned by his 1:4;;
Honourable Frieni (Mr. Peek) he had thoarla It
uitjust to bring tor ward such a measure without ti:e
fullest deliberate:4.

Mr. STEWART observed, that if seven rrri
transportation was thcught too severe, a law an.;!
be enacted whereby the offenders might be sent 61
board the hulks, or to a man of war.
. After a few observations from Mr. PEEL! and Mr.
. 4 "

4. FOSTER, the clause in its original form was car•
ried, as was the clause making the punishment tranrl
portation for seven years for the second offence.
'The other clauses of the Bill were then disposed
of, after vihich the House resumed, and the Bemi!
of the Bill, as amended, was ordered to be received
to-morrow.
The Bill for punishing :alit ideds fonni guilty cf

r-

.

deer„yialt machuiety, ke. Was toad die third eerie,
and Passed. •
The Lords Amendments to -the Alien Bill were
taken into .censideration,ind agreed to.
On the Mt..tion for the House resolving itself into
$ Ciiminittee on the rgy Non-Residence Bill.
General THORNTON remarked en the very ge-
scral negligence of the Clergy in the 'performance of
the Church service, and read several extracts frOm let.
tens, ke, referring particularly to the parish of Wry.
youth. He thought that Bills permitting the absence
of the Clergy from their churches, should not be in.,
wit:Need, and concluded by expressing his should_ not
• 'titan to the present Ecclesiastical establishment. I .
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCREVER
replied, that it could be of no advaritigt to the
•scherch to let loose a crowd of informers on ihe O.
sent Clergy.
The Bill then went through the Committee, and
• the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
• The House went into a Committee on the Leather
ro, la Which a conversation took place between
gr. Losurgoron, Lord ALtitoar, Mr. MAISERLEIrs
Lard CoswroN, Mr. W. Smart, and Mr. Rosa, and
several other Members took a part. The House re-
sumed. Report to-morrow.
The other Orders of the day were disposed of, and
the house adjourned at half after twelve o'clock.