Star.
London, England, 1810-05-22 00:00:00

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2r 1 were to• be reran* by • atrial; that
*•
I 4.; throw tile whole of the representation into
• 10 ir principal towns of the county. The' free
of the t”wns would uniibrmly- prevail' over
the ieehol.lers of the county, bemuse they. could
ainwst alnays outnumber them at' an-election) and
..renly some inhabitant of the tcrwn 'would' be
returned. .This would ibe 'to commute
‘county the bnrottsit electiOn. , Buv if the I
• tvere to be taken by districts, it would save
, expellee, and enable those, who at present are
r.
j..letrA by a consideration of the expence front of-
:l-rnselves to become • Candidates. • Nothing
pi•
-event the Sheriffs from taking the votes
er,.-:::hout the different districts, without subjecting
,fan:;idate to the expence of bringing up the free-
folders fr,nt the extremities of the county to the
be collected
election The Votes might also
nlice Soot't.i,re.g the different parishes in. populous towns.
unless s,‘ine such .arrangement should be made, it
iravl.l be impossible to e,tablisli triennial Parliaments
vati:out producing mischiefs of the most dangerons
ti„.l,-„,:y. He htd thus briefly gone through the
swinent of the plan he had to recoinm:nd, and in
order to prevent all misapprehension or' misconstruc-
tion of its 'lawn', must beg td recapitulate its princi.
p4l sithiect had been repeatedly dis-
coid, and a great variety of oninions was entertain-
don• No man could, therefore, enter into the
que,tio without feeling much dtfficulty and some in.
convemicnce. TO guard against misconception, there.
livaild mt.! tt.• that he did not mean to touch
cl young for county Members, except by.let:
ti,r4 ;it copyholders, and assimilating the mode of vo-
tiltz tn Scotland to that practice in this country ; that
whist he left the right of voting untouched, he
shotud propose to di4rancliiso the borougl.s in which
Ift Mtaulu rs were returned upon the nomination
of irdividuals ; and, as the numbers of tlie House
of Comm, as w, old be diminished in that proportion,
t, ti-r6fer the rjit of returning such Members to
piptaotts towns, and to apply any surplus to popu-
imis comities ; that he would recommend the dura-
tion Parliament to be made triennial, together with
a concurrent arrangement for collecting the votes by
districts ant parishes. This was what he had to
prcp, se ; but there was another point remaining,
to whic:l it WAS necessary to call the attention of the
House, and which would require a remedy, Nix. the
number of persons holding places and seats in that
H. tisr. (Hear, 121-a:-.) Something, was necessary
übe tL tie ;:n that head ; but he was ready to admit
that Ile Lid not think that all persons holding cnlice:i
s°,rt:ld he excluded from that House. He was con-
.

hoaever, that persons holding offices witl.out
eTpi.sil):l:z:- should nct be suffered to have seats in
; he hop4d, theref:•re,. that a Bill would

. .
to exclude such persons from Par:ja-
i...en:. On these grounds, he had felt it a duty he
cJitivry to bring, forward his motion, and
Le trusted the 1-I.atse would give it all the attention
i: &served. Of one thing he was sure, that they
must eithrr have a temperate reform or a military
Geverarnent—(Hear, hear.) In saying that, he was
pet actna!ed by any hostility towards the Gentlemen
opposite (on the Treasury Bench), or any feeling of
tochment to the Gentlemen on the same side with

limscif. The people demanded a moderate reform
as ri!:!!,t, and if their demand were not com-
illA ,nld enleavour to assert their right.—
Itlat the rintilt of such a struggle might be, it was
TA for him to .iliticii,,tte ; but its his conscience he
klieved that the c:itin•sy must have a moderate re-
form, t.r it I be subjected to a military govern-
ment. Ifthr. House were to reject the former, then
the sun of the nation's freedom and greatness
is: to:• ever set; but it', on the contrary, that House
shants.h..,! pt Heim, then would the sun of Britain
r,c irons its present dark horizon, and again shine
frh in :II the splendour of meridian lustre. •He
s o :' flit trespass longer upon the attention of the
ti cone:tided by moving,
• '1..11 aC- nittee he appointed to inquire into the state of
tititeprcs.i.:at.un of the People in that House, to consider of
tie rito.. tt. 11 means of reforming it, and to report this same,
in:h their (Thiele, then-on to the House."

Mr. DXVIES GIDDY telt-that the present was
a qtk,iieat of great dill-lenity ; but it was a question
had nevertheless engaged his most serious con-
tikr.t6tei. He kit that it derived additional weight
kr2m the character and talents of the Honourable
Gentle= to who brought it forward ; and it was cer-
tainly, the most moderate and reasonable of any
of the plays of reform which he had lately heard.—
He thought, however, that all the reforms which he
Ltd heard proposed went on a wrong principle, and
that the people were virtually represented in every
branch or the Legislature. He conceived that the
Kite; represented the people in his executive capa-
city, and that the House of Lords might be conside-
red as hereditary reoresentatives ; for it could hardly
be contended by any body that the Nobles, or he
should rather say the Noblemen of this country had,
any distinct interest from the rest of the people. It
ras not here, as in other countries, that they formed
a daiinct class ; for the Noblemen of this country
saw their nearest relations, and their own children.
Witd in the general mass of society. How then
could they have interests different from those of the
rest of the community ? He conceived, that the I
Rome of Commons were virtually the representatives
of the people, although they were not absolutely their
delegates. He did believe that lithe House of Com-
7'',orts were really a House of delegates, it would be
impossible that the other branches of the Legislature
could exist in conjunction with it. Such an assem-
bly must be governed by every prejudice and turn
of public opinion, and would absorb the whole power
•fthe State. Such a great share of public feeling
and sympathy would always attach to a House of de.
kg%tes, that the House of Loris could not weigh as
%feather in the balance against them, and, indeed,
he 6,1 think it would not be long suffered to exist as
a branch of the Legislature. This experiment had
lately been tried in a neighbouring country (France),
and the result of the experiment was in the knowledge
of every person. The whole feeling of the country
empathized at first with the National Assembly ;
and the King Could no longer maintain the ground
which the constitution of their own framing had as-
stued him. The history of our own country also
furnished a remarkable instance how powerful a
House of Commons was, around which the sk hcle
people tallied, and how soon that power was likely to
be abused, and in its abuse lead to the destruction of
the liberties .of the country. In our Consteattion,
12°"Yers there was somethiLg of the delegate Sy stern

ititermisecV.with the representadun ; for there were
particular Members elected for. large, populous, and
commercial towns, who might be considered. as dele-
gates. Now it was a matter of opinion upon which
Men Might well differ, whether there was not already.',
.enough of those delegates in the House of Commons
wider the present system ? He would not say, that •
in his opinion, it would do any harm to disfranchise
two'or three rotten boroughs, and give represents-.
tires to two or three populous towns that did not re-
turn any. *Others, however, might think, that even,
now, tliere were too many Members retooled by po-
pular election. This opinion did not seem altogether
unreasonable, when it was considered bow great a
syMpathy there was between the clamour of the mob
and the opinions of some Gentlemen.' He saw it laid
down in all our constitutional books, that a reprenen.
tative elected for any county, city, or town,. should
immediately conceive himself to be the representative
of the whole kingdom. How could this doctrine be
reconciled with the delegate system ?. Nobody would
propose that the Army and the Navy -Should send
their Representatives to Parliament, or that the Inns
of Courts should return Members. As the case how-

ever now stands, every person that is most distin-
guished in the military and naval service, in the pro-
fession of the law, and -indeed in almost every trade
or netnufactory, found its way into that House, and

communicated such information as could not other•

svise be obtained. He certainly was acquaint2d with
some of the Boroughs in the South; one lie would
,mention, Tavistock. He did not think that Borough
lad been very unfortunate in its selection of Repre-
sentatives. In talking of the best times of the Con-
stitution, he thought that he Mould speak of modern

•
times ; for certainly the condition of the notiTe cf
Commons was not to be boasted ef at those times,

when they were only assembled to grant subsi&es, and
were not a part of the Legislature. Whatever defects

there might be in the theory -if its construction,
yet the system went on well. It aPas easy to draw
plans of Constitutions ; but when they were put into
execution, many-that were good in theory were bad
in practice, and soon led to what was the simplest of

all Constitutions, a military despotism. It would be
absolutely impossible to apportion exactly the ntnae
of election according to the basis of property and po-
pulation. It would be hard to say how many men

of a certain property should halanCe r greater num-
ber of inferior property. A chArge had also been

genevally made, which he believed a.vas considerably
exaggerated. In all the Petitions now presented I.r
Reform, the practice of buying and selling seats was
alluded to, and he believed it was supposed to e:i;t
to a much greater degree than it actually did. He

did not dottbt but that perhaps 10 or 12-sens in that
House might have been so obtained. (A generalla:;~li.
If the election was for districts, in every district thew
would be rich demagogues who would get themselves
returned by their wealth and influence. Some few

individuals, it was true, might purchase in for the
purpose of making money ; but this was, indeed, a
bad speculation. Among those who came into Par-
liament from the influence of property, were many
West India Gentlemen. Now, when it was consi-
dered of what great importance the West Indies are
to the Empire, and the great revenue and commerce
we derive from them, it was surely not unreasonable
that some Gentlemen connected with those ioterests
shoub I rind their way into that House. lie wished
that those who thought every thing bad in this coun-
try, would compare its situation with that of any other
Country in the world. All other nations had sunk in
the struggle with France, but this country had stood
its ground. And what had the people of this country
to complain of? Nothing, but an accumulation of
taxes, which a war of eighteen years rendered nece-sa-
ry. He felt the pressure of taxes as much as any one ;
but be knew that large armies and fleets were not
to be kept without money. The country exhibited
every mark of increasing prosperity. The canals, the
docks, the public works and private specuktions that
were every day going forward, shewed the great and
increasing wealth of the country. The climate even
was improved, dismses were banished, human life
was prolonged to a greater term, as was shewn by the
bills of mortality—(A laugh)—than ever it had been
before. The people were better fed, and that was a
reason why they should live longer. In such a state
of superior comfort, was there en • body who would
wish to throw all oar national prosperity to hazard,
merely because they thought that one individual
(Gale Jones) who had libelled the House, had been
punished in rather too summary a mode, or that an
Honourable Baronet had been sent to the Tower for
.t violation of the privileges of the House. He was
ready to contend that cur Government, and eve-y
Government except an absolute tyranny, must be con-
sidered representative. He then recapitulated the ob-
servations he had already made, and declared that he
was afraid of the first step to Reform, however inno-
cent it might seem. About the duration of Parlia-
ments, there would be also a great difference of opi-
nion. One man would Wish for a triennial Parliament,
another would be forannual Parliaments, while a third,
whose bear periods recurred oftener (a latch), might
wish them monthly. Even if this Bill should pass,
some would complain that the freeholders and copy-
holders engrossed the elective franchise. He feared
it any changes were made in our Constitution, they
would finally lead us through the storms of demo-
cracy and anarchy, into the gulph of despotism.
Mr. NOEL supported the motion of Mr. Brand.
He by no means wished to change the Constitution
of the country, but merely to remedy those abuses
which had been produced by time. When it was re-
collected that it had been offered to be proved at the
Bar of the House that no less than 150 seats were
disposed of by the nomination of a few individuals,
he ought it was evident that some reform was ne-
na
ry, and the Reform proposed by his Honourable
Friend appeared to him moderate and reasonable.
Lord MILTON, after what had passed, demanded
to be informed where was the zra to which Gentle-
men would assimilate the Constitution of that House ?
Was it to the :era of the Tudors, or was it to that of
the Stuarts? NVnat were now deemed to be abuses,
had grown up with the Constitution of the State.—
Members of that House, at its best times, had sat for
Boroughs (Sarum and Gatton), which his Honoura-
ble Friend wished to blot out of the map of the State
—Boroughs, indeed, which had been the means of
introducing to that House some of t::e brightest or-
naments of Parliament. The plan was fair to look
on, enticing to contemplate ; but he could not flatter
his Honourable Friend by son:ix-till it. Gentlemen

'were delighted with new constittakms t. new. the
Atherican.constitution was new, one of the great ex•
periments of the new school I and yet, would any one
say that the constitution of America was suited to In?
(Rea, hear.) Should the present'plaa go into a Coro,
mittee, what other extrivagant plans of, the sort
.might not be proposed there I Every One might haye
his OWH plan of Reform ; and each bent to propose
and support,hisnwn measure. He would not, how-

_ .
sever; tin oneilet out on a chivalrous enterprize after
• coustitittion,:.—(lietio, hear, hear.) The very pro-
[posal for a Committee proved that his Honourable
Friend did not know • what proceeding to determine
lon : he would rath:r have seen some specific remedy,
by ,way of Bill; trom him ; since, as it was, he_ did

•
Inot see where his tionournble Friend meant to lead

I him Delegation wonld make them merely a Congress
lnE AmbaistdArs met to confer on terms marked out

thernotud instead of a.general representation eadt
one for the 'whole, the Count:), would be districted
by an individual representation. Yet liow wits such
representation to take place ? If those only who paid
!taxes were to vote, taxes wilre changeful ; and the
state of the representation mast alter with them.--;
There was, however, no-man who did nut in tome

shape. pay taxes ; since no man could buy chlla a
hat, or a coat, or a jacket, or even a pair of shoes,
who did not pay taxes ; and the veriest beggar in the
stretts was, on this principle, entitled to vote for re-
presentatives. Were they to p,p by the p. 711? ,It
would he found impossible, cveu in Westmin,ter,

get the vcte of each man.. Convinced as he %vas of
the impracticability of recurring to. the genuine theo,
ry of the CoAstitution, he saw nothing but objections

thepropcmil.

-
The state of poli;ical electron w:►s

.
such, bowl:vet-, tliAt the people might choose rcpt.:men

. .
tatives after their own hearts.— (7lear,'
they had done, this they might still do. Ili? there-
,fore mnst deprecate all iliac:ovation*, pArticul.arly

wli.tt w.ts now projected ; it was Labouring to satkly

characters, who were determined nT:t to I;e satisfied

with them.— (Laugh: and icars). He s.tw neither ex-
pediency nor necessity in the proposal of his Honour-
able ,friend.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended, that the plan
proposed was no innovation wliatever of the. Consti-
tution, and wasisupported by many precedents, both
in this kingdom, and on the records of the Irish Par-
liiment. His Noble Friend (Lord Milton) had,ad-
ve7ted to America, but the proof that the Constitu-

tion of that country had not tailed was, that thz. peo-
ple were satisfied : the taxes were small; the national
debt crib nS ; the b,arthen on the nation at large light;
and ali the euds of Government fully answered. He
was the laic man who would pull down the fabric

because it wanted repair ; he Would renevate it. In
going into a Committee on this question, he could
not conceive that it was necessary to go any steps
further dun they thought f-h ; they would there be
enabled to exercise their deliberate judgment, better
than having it before the whole House ; and for these
reasons he supported the motion.
Sir JAMES PULTENEY complained of the no.
dons scattered abroad, and which it carried into effect
would lead to an absolute democracy, tbr the nature
of every power 'always tended to the increase. He
would judge of the present Government by its conse
quences. There was no complaint that it encroached
en civil liiierty, that justice was badly admnistered,
that property was insecure, but on the contrary ; and,
these blessings he would pi eier to the finest theories
which could be devised. He thought it a most ex-
trtordinary thing to hear the failure of the Walcheren
Expedition, and of other Expeditions, adduced as a
motive for a Perliementary Reform ; for how could
such a reform enable Ministers to conduct 'heir Ex-
peditions better, or how could it prevent the frequent
recurrence of war ? The fact was, that the ieeople in
many instances had been as willing for war as Go.
vernment ; and here the Right Honourable Baronet
took a review of the late wars, within a certain period,
to prove this assertion. If any such complaints had
been made as these to which he alluded in the beginning
of his speech, he would think that some grounds had
been adduced fur Reform ; but he wseild not enter
into the subject to flatter popular opinions ; for was
the House to give way, we should go from perfection
to perfection, till at last we should be brought to a
complete democracy, or to a military despotism.
Mr. JACOB was firmly of opinion, that if all the
Members ter Boroughs had been out of the House
when the cfuestion on the Walcheren Expedition had,
been brought forward, the decision would have been
eearly the same. He quoted the instance of the great
E irl of Chatham having been a Member for Old;
Sarum ; and maintained that the only salutary re-
form—the only one that would be beneficial to the
, Electors, would be a reform in the expenditure.
Mr. STOURGES BOURNE did not believe that
public opinion ran so contrary to the decisions of the
House as some Gentlemen had represented it. But
it was natural for men thinking warmly, and whose
opinion happened to differ from those of the majority
of the House, to suppose that others shared in their
sentiments. He adverted to the cry raised by Sir
Francis Burdett about Mena Charta being explicit
against the imprisonment of the subject by order of
the House; and suppose that the Hon. Baronet had
considered that ancient document as dormant during
the whole of the last session, when he attended in his
place, and saw General Clavering and others com-
mitted on the Speaker's warrant. He demanded at
• what period of our history the constitution was like
what was at present demanded ? He adverted to the
composition of Parliament, and to their functions as
stated in Magna CliJrta; and they were, he asserted,
so completely in contradiction with any thing practi-;
cable in these days, that he was more and more '
con-
vinced, that .112-.7na Charta had been much morel
talked of than read. It had been enacted in times
of servitude ; it contained a variety of regulations
I quite foreign to the present Parliamentary business ;
such as ecclesiastical regulations, for instance. In ,
fact, it only shewed the luxuriance of feudality at
that time, and could not possibly form rules for • the
present. The Honourable Member maintained, on
the contrary, that the elections were now more popu-
lar than at anv other period. If Boroughs had been
deserted, the depreciation of money had so much re.
(bleed the real value of the forty shilling freeholds,
that a much greater number of people now enjoyed
the elective franchise, than was at first intended. That
sum had been fixed in the reign of Henry VI. under
Q wen Anne-the proportion was fixed at £l‘.:., forty
years ago at £420, and he would leave Gentlemen to
Judge ought to be the Folio:deo now. In answer

to tho objection, that the House as at present comp
favoured wars. he Tinted instances of
.arar. most popu-
lar, and of Members diszarded by thcit constituents toe
opposing so& wars. As to itu tavottrin;,, the increas :
of taxation, lw did not think that people were vi.
surd AS not to consider that the • 'Nem at t!e
; same -Lime tat.):;ng thomselvt:4, and tn.:: horn t;44 r
prope:-ty great part of those I).3rther.l :. 3 up', them,
~ which .th.y were not of course likcly to incr....4
necess•Jrily ; indee.l, since he 1111 th!ll•mojr of .1 sett

in that House, he had seen the g tea:.s 'WM. VIM
to the poorer classes in this relict. lie conside:ed
the plan of his Honourable Frioad, Whatever :moil&
be its mer't, as not likely to sati-s.fy the Fork, whoec
petitions thy had receivel; Indeed, it wai evident
that nothing short of Sir Francis Ilurdett's plan would
satisfy tiv:m ; and that plan went vet y short (it tinker.
sal suffrage. On Cie other ;Lind, the small number e
petitions they had received on that subj: et slier:l4llw •
fallacious was the opiuiln tl:ft a wig!) or rs•fOrm
the general feeling of the petople-of ;2.agland. Ezpe-
rimmts on absolute popular ele.croothad already
made in Francs; tut ion A rns”re-t; both they h.,a
cnm-
pleicly failed ; aktd he had bs:om surprZlsc.i :t hearing
an Hon. Bartinet stAnd forth lit -(ls:tenet cf the 0.0-vsanment
vsanment of the last named countl-v. To America.
he was himself a stranger ; but he La i seen reperts
from that conntry,he had heard the testimony of eye-
witnesses, one of eeliom had asserted, Ant a ", repec.
table tradesman would not suffer his s'fltimen to talk
in.,the way Members of. Congress-cf.:J..'r A Iklemi?or
of • another li aus r, WilOW atithbrity surd very high,
and wile, lrad he. an eye-witness, had also declared,

Ow in America t 1 experirnent, had been fairly tried,
a::d had cottirletely Lad:— In such a state of the
qucstion, he could not'sufficientla• wonder .0 the Ho.
nuttrabio Bateau t's assertions. in the (present situa-
tion of affairs, he trusted the' Mouse would be can.
dots how they entertained exi:erintental proj...cts on
the ConAitution.

Mr. WA RD r.r rose for the purpose of offering
some explanation, in consequence of what had fallen
from the last speaker, of the plan proposed by his Hon.
Friend, now a prisoner in the Tower, and in doing
which he would endeavour to be as short as possible.
The Han. Member had misrepresented the plan pro-
posed by his Hon. Friend, in stating that it proposed
universal suffrage. The two, propositions brought
forward by his Honourable Friend had for their ob-
ject, the limiting the duration of Parliaments, and
the extension of the elective franchise. These were
the principles which he submitted to Parliament,
leaving it to its wisdom and discretion to devise the
means of carrying them into execution. His object
wasi to bring Parliament back to its original duration,
and; to make property the basis of political power.
—Was there any thing like a proposal for universal
suffrage in this last proposition ? The extent of his
Hon. Friend's proposal was, that every person con-
tributing directly to the payment of taxes, should be
entitled to vote. Who, in fact, were so likely to be
independent in their votes as those who were able to
pay the heavy burdens imposed upon them ? Tho
Hon. Member who spoke last stated, that the num-
ber of • the Constituent Body was much increased.—
He admitted it Was ; but still he would contend, that
it bore no proportion to the population of the coun-
t! y. As property- was the basis of taxation, no pet•
son should be taxed who was not. represented. [ he
Hun. Member here took a review of the Constitution
of the House of Commons from the earliest period.]
In the reign of Charles the Second Parliamerits were
triennial ; and he found, in the Preamble to tho
Bill of Rights, an account of the advantages re-
sulting from the frequent calling of Parliaments.
—ln the year 1716, during the reign of George the
First, the duration of Parliaments was extended
to seven years ; an act as unconstitutional as any
of those for which Charles the First 'lost his head.—
Never was there a more arbitrary proceeding than the
Septennial Act. It was at this time that a standing
army was established. So that these two measures
went, as it were, band in hand • or, as was well ex-
pressed by an able Lawyer of that day, " A standing
Parliament and a standing army were fit and conver-
tible instruments to support each other." He would
not take up more of the time of the House, but repeat
wkat he arose to declare, that the principle of his
Honourable Friend's plan was, that taxation and re.
presentation should go hand in hand, and that Par-
liament should be brought back to its ancient dura-
tion. If the elective franchise was given to all per-
sons paying taxes, there would soon be an end No
corruption.
Mr. WHITBREAD begged the indulgence or the
House while he stated shortly why he agreed in the
motion of his Honourable Friend, which was admit-
ted by every person who had spoken in the debate.to
be both rational and temperate. The motion was not
new in that House, though it might be to many of
those oho sat in it. It had often been the subject of
discussion, and had been supported by men of the
greatest abilities. It was with this subject Mr. Pitt
commenced his brilliant political career; and so near
was he succeeding in it, that he was defeated by a
majority of only twenty-one. Whatever difference of
opinion might exist in the House respecting the expe-
diency of Parliamentaty Reform, there seemed to be
but one opinion as to the candour, the explicitness,
anti tl:e moderation of his Honourable Friend's plan.
The Honourable Gentleman below him (Mr. Giddy)
and the Honourable Member who spoke last, had not
dealt fairly by his Honourable Friend. They appeared
to ascribe to him to have had no other motive for
bringing forward the subject of Parliamentary Reform
than to comply with the popular effervescence. He
could state from his own knowledge, that at the con-
clusion of the last of the divisions on the Walcheren
Expedition, his Honourable Friend mentioned tAirn
that he was inclined to give notice of a motion for a
Parliamentary Reform. He dissuaded him from R.
and he had the goodness to follow his advice. How
could it be said that his motion of this night sprung
out of the transactions of the last few weeks, or the
commitment of Sir Francis Burdett to the Tower?—
The question had been agitated for half a century,
during which it underwent the discussion of some of
the greatest men that the House ever saw. It was
the constant and favourite theme of Mr. Pitt, in his
early days. It was brought forward again in 1793,
when he first had the honour of supporting it. It was
again the subject of discussion i 11797, Witt n he also
supported it • at d he would now give hs vote for it
i 1810. He wo.ild have supported S r Frareis
Burdett's proposition last year, had 11, been in Ms
place ; lac the w4rthy Baronet's notice wae.ao *on,

. -:, ao_ i, mat tat plan : tiniverset-o.
how their '''' '' ' had beenreceived • "
frage had heel? tried in two crimitties and failed: -He i recollected ir petitions. and
denied it., ei Reim* ileVer hiid afaiit trial in artY &nine+ treated daring•the present Sees:ion, it was by bo means
try. The eiperiment, is'said.to hayolailea i. Mme- Ito be wondered at that there wereno petitions tin the
rice. • He knew uorewho.thOSeaathorities were, el.', table pialiirtg for :Parliamentary. Reform... He did
hided to by the Hon. Membereer frprirneliatlliObk'he'' not know ..,whether the rHouse in
.general thotight e
took hiaquestatisin;; Ism he would'.inairhein.' from' Reforweneeessoey S. heeforsone, did seriously think so..
authovities,eouellysrespectahle,. that It had ne'jfailed. i He•talledtbeatientionof the House to the Govern-
In America, it,Was,..not a Reforni that.was'effeeted, mete 'of •Austria, Prussia, and Spain, and asked if
but a creatipn thatewas produced,' That.fatil.war they had reformed. their !bases ? 44 No (said he)
was the origin of all. the cabirnitiej that of late years , fatally for theme they badenot ; arid have they not
had overwhelmed the civilized world fand the cause :hike. in chusequeneepf the neglect or unwillingness
of that war,. as Mr. Pitt said, WAS because the Corn- to do so 4" HadeSicily reformed her abuses ? What
mons House of England Was not.Jefortirea,,' That ' might be the,fateof Sicilyehe did not know. ; hut he
fatal war tore America from England; severed •her"feared the same blind-determination was made on her
for ever from it, and, she had-every thing*to create part, and if so, the same consequences were most
—Government, Constitution, Laws. Inasmuch,. as' likely to follow. We had a still oearer, and more
that Government was formed under 'the direction' striking instance in the late Parliament of Ireland.
of one of the ablest and honestest men that ever Nothing could be more evident to every one than the
lived ; inasmuch as America has grown into power , necessity of a veform in that House of Commons ; it
and prosperity under it ; inasmuch, as she is be- i was allowed .on all hands ; there was no scarcity,
come what she is ; inasmuch, as she is a greats but; on the contrary, abundance of petitions from
rival to this country, and in the fair road to become the people, praying fax a Reform : but it was put
one of the greatest powers on earth ; he would say,'! off and postponed from timers timer till as Kist it
that the principle had succeeded. In France; indeed, ;cameo) such a pass as to render it absolutely necessary
he must admit that it miscarried; and why ? Because' that it should be merged in the English Parliament.
it had not had a fair trial. Why was reform necessary 5..-There was another point also which had almost
in that country, but because the Government would entirely escaped the notice of every one, and that was
not reform itself ? It also failed in France because 1 the repreeentation of Scotland, which could scarcely
attempts were made to dismember that country ;, be called a representation. As to the matter of corn-
because the opportunities he, and other Members who ,pensation, his Honourable Friend did not say that he
thought with him, recommended of coming to an un..l thought it absolutely necessary. He (Mr. Whit-
derstanding with that country, had not been embraced. ; bread) for one could not couseet to any such thing.
Thesewere the rcasons why it failed,and not on account There was no necessity for it. This country was not
of any absurdity in theory or impracticability in extol,. !in the situation in which Ireland stood. It was true,
tion. There never was, however, a fair experiment of ; that in Ireland compensation had been mede ; but it
reform in France. Mr. Pitt was not, it was true, of " would be recollected that an Honourable Gentleman
that opinion ; but many others were on whose judo- high in Office had declared in that House, that every
relent lie could rely, in preference to that of that Right taring there was done by money, and that nothing
Ion: Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.Giday) : could be done without it. In this country the 80.
bad said, that the extent of taxation in this country was I rough - interests were in different hands : he meant
Dot to be wondered at ; that after a war of IS years . they were in the hands of persons of a different de-
coutinuance it was impossible we could suppoie it to ; scription, and he would never consent to any corn-
be less. He would, however, beg leave to ask that ! pensation being given them for a species of property ,
Hon.. Gentleman, if &luring those 18 years there had , that was so dark a blot on the Representation of the
zeat, .been a most lavish expenditure of the public, House of Commons. H: welds' suppose a case, that
money, and if 'during all that time he, and othersa Nobleman who has a command over, and can no-
-114110 thought as he did, might not very reasonably * minate to six or seven seats in that House, should
suppose that the Minister of the:Crown, having any : have taken a fancy to 4 supei for title, or to some'
peculation .or corruotion to screen, would have an ' honourable distinction, such as a Blue kibband,l
-opportunity iat _,doing it effectually amidst, aril by . which was intended to be given as a reward to some
means. of that immense profusion of public treasure e i gallant and meritorious soaker, who had shed his
.H.i.s-Hon. .Friend (Mr. Brand) had desired lib such (blood in the service. of his country, and crowned her
plan as had been imputed io hint. • The lion. Gentle.i with victory and glory—and this Lord comes and
.pen ,(Mr, Giddy) had.said that thc :House of l'etr•; says 'to the-Minister, ~ I mist have that Ribbaird,
:were too virtue] eeprosentatives et the people ; did he -or I take fsoio you .my votes." The Minister is
,recollect. how much ths.Peers had increased
.of ho ie
obliged to 'comply with his demand, and to with-
eyoars.?, klowooldesupaesne the Case of a niairof great i hold frOm the brave ()Ricer a badge of proud Chi.
coontynod *tomb! taterest; capable of command- -tinction, which to him would. have been an lihnour,
ting.si; aar seven eicitee. in. that House; And thereby and. ate confer it on him to wheels, under such circuns-
omeltledevery touch to annoy iheMinistera, shOuldbe stances, it is a disgrace. Could any thing.' be more
.indueedee be made alleer, oisheiiild have desire to be shockitig than the idea of. a Minister of this country
!possessed cif a tide, such a man could obtain his point being. in such a state of. thraldom ? ,lf seCli things
whenever he pleased, aitd thue.get hiMself transferred ever have happened, .they may happen again ; or if
,pmong theHon.Gentleinan'svirtual representatives of 1 they ever can happen, they should be prevented. It
• the epoolo.tebut syne this such e representative of the I was, however, somewhat curious to see the different
&People to the House of Cotnmoos as the people them.i and opposite conclusions drawn by •Alfferent persons
eselvesoatr any reasonable andbliPXr(ial- man would from. the same premises. His Honourable Friend
;think
sfpir. ? Such a case hid actuallybappen—ed, and, behind him. says, "If you have net a. Reform in Par-
: might occur again o and he thought. it *as a dis- , liarnent, you mast sink •into a Military Despotism."
~ graceful blot
,m.tho' representation and in the consti- i The Honourable ,Gentleman on the floor below him
~ tettloo of that-House. There ants also another very ! says, " If you have a Reform in Parliameat, that
-. grievous circumstance attending Peers nominating to I will lead to another, ..,hick will operate a third, and
• seats in. that House;. whenever a Member is returned li so on till we should be drawn through the vortex of
:or aominatedby alsroblemato he must on all occa.: I Democracy into a hlilitary Despotism." For his own
sions vote asebe patron desires, or be must resign his ! part, be had no such fears or apprehensions. He
net—C(l trig of Ale, no, from
Mt. 7 reaskry Basche:),: i thought the House, by acceding to a Refotm, would
" I say, (continued Mr. Whitbread) he cannot do I be tilting the very part which would keep us clear of
otherwise.,t' In die one case it is a legal debt, in the both those dreadti:l evils. He would not, however,
other a dt4es-of honoer ; and' te left it to the conside- ; rest sokly upon his own opinion and judgment ; he
ration . and determination of House, whether the i would call to his aid authorities from the dead ;he
. virtuous representative is not the choice of electors.— would appeal to the doctrines of the great Lord Cha-
the delegate, the man who is nominated by a patron. them, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, who had all declared
The Hon Gentleman below bim (Mr. Giddy) had also ; that a Reform in the Representation of the People in
told the Douse, that the navy and army were in some I the Commons House of Parliament was absolutely
• degree represented. by the many great Admirals and 1 necessary- far the welfare pnd salvation of the coun-
Generals who had seats in that House, and that Many I try e and -Mr. Pitt particularly declared, that without
pf the Profeesion of -the Law (there are jacked a pre,' it no honest Minieter coisid continue i:i office. The
. mai. yef Mein, said Mr. Whitbread) had found their Hon. Member, Oster a variety of- other observations,
1
. , way intoehat House.. It was true we had seen that concludedwithgieinghis warns support 0 the motion.
„ ',gallant Admiral Sir Samuel Hood standing for the Mr.-CANNING .Said .it was, net possible that a
.
City, of Westminster, and received in the warmest graver cr more•coMptebensive,questione-a question
• , manner by the people, who navertergot gallant ser. i.involring mere seripiteintereete, eueenbre tremendous
vices clone to the country ; that gallant Admiral was I.4ionseotiences,could possibly. mare under tleir con.
„ preceled by leordGerdney—but these gallant effieecol ajektration. . It-might undopleedly happen, that some
,must ,either be taken out-of the service of the counteyel,circumstances might occur to render such a deliber.a- 1
or of their constileeirts : they could not terve baths sifi etion:necessary, but theee wasps little doUbt that that 1
that part of the; tionnurable Gentleman's argument , necessity ought to,.'ac • made .F`le,•aely* apparent before I
. fell to the grqUissl. *He'would ask his Noble Friend i the House adopted it,....iiiisextein and leading argu. I
Yorkshire,
-4nsi the Sonourable Member for i Inent•whi4ll IWi been,. uaed Beat night in favour of re-,
Yorkshire, if, in .thl,..Jate Cantested eleetion-for Yore. I, form,..was, that it-would concillate.the great body. or ;
~. 'abbe,. theyjaw alp reeson why the mode of electioe i the .people; ho .did not kelieviltefiecausehedid not 1
_, shcialdhe.ell'anged ? The leedlog landed interests of believe that the greitt bojiy of, the people was distcor. , '
•14 sciunty were very nearly equally divided e the s tented.- . hi doubt there was w- party in. the country
..,
eeoretensions qt the candidates' sweet the • same, except: who..eretended Reform, and}, seeking inazelly, reviled
.• :,-es to teetune ; but the Honourable Gentleman was and distrusted diet. House ; but the object of 'whose;
T. horptetedeio that respect by a pasty, Who had parried .uneasy witS.noeits.improvement, but its destruction-a. I
es tielo*.skotigh the contest in a meatier equally honour- a main,. ccuitemptible, degraded_ crew, who niagni- .
a.h• le to hum 04 Id thenisereete •aod Int be. believed •O•d'ttleernselete uo. the nation, and diminished 41:e

*it 1* WAS *et able to come up from the country in
:The two Honourable Members had gone into
gnsat>deal of matter, quite extraneous to the mo-
dors'ofliti Honourable Friend. It was for the ap-
/Mintment of a Committee, and not for the discussion.
of the prineiple of reform. Had the latter been his
intention, he would have come'forward with a spe-
cific proposition ; instead of which he proposed is go
into a Committee because it was most
was much to be lamented that some of those who
were at first the most powerful and zealous advocates
for a Reform in Parliament, should afterwards, from
circumstances he should not now examine, become its
firmest opponents. In 1792, when a Noble relative
of his (Lord Grey) then a Member of that House,
gave notice of a motion on the subject for the ensu-
ing Session, Mr.. Pitt deprecated the agitating of the
question, though the country was not then at war, and
none of those scenes had occulted-at a neighbouring
kingdom, that were at a subsequent peilod urged as
arguments against entertaining it. Mr. Pitt then stated,
that he would ratlicr forego the advantages that might
arise fro4m the "measure, th in risk the danger avhieh
might psowd froth ex' rin jecaCses: His -Nettie
Friend,
_hostevert..bro: ght forrard the stibjecr. in
1793, an 4; 3s nught I.av! been .espeitetl,. was
vniucceisfnl; The Honourable-Member viho spoke
last but one ;Serted, that thb plan of tdthrelisai-

that every este of the parties saw etiaugh of tho Mate
of election- to make them heartily sick of it, and to
convince him that a change was highly desirable.—
His Noble Friend had•said, that whoever could talk
most nonsense, was sure to be returned at a popular
election ; but he thought he must give up that opi*-
nion, when he recollected that he had been, at the •
late election, returned for the largest and most popu-
lions county in the kingdom. He found it necessary
to ask here whether they did not apprehend an indis-
position in the people against the House of Commons ?
—(4 cry eft- No, No, frofil several parts ?ft/a HouJ,-)
those who thought so, he said, might enjoy their opi-
•nion ; but he was convinced it was the case, and that
there was a strong indisposition on the part of the
.people. He did not mein to say it was in conse-
quence of what had passed in the present Session,
but it had been growing and increasing for iowe
years ; . and there could be no doubt, but that
what had passed in the last and present Sessinn had
I considerably increased it. An Honourable Gentle-
`Man had said, "there are no Petitions on• the.
'table., and, therefore, Ilia people do not want :t Re.
form -.01. Parliament e' but when it was recollected
i that-they:have, at various
.perihds, petitioned ..again
!and again:; when they have seen in 'Oat manner
their petition.s hive been ioceived,..and tow they were
attended:to, and more OrtictilarlY when Gentlemen

•,.

iMmilenlem