Star.
London, England, 1817-03-08 00:00:00

YIN A NCI COM M

Mr. CALCRAFT rose, at the desire of a Right
Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney), to state on his behalf,
that on account of ill health he was prevented from
being able to continue to attend the sittings of the
Finance Committee. He was also desired to assure
the House, that it was only on account of ill health,
and by the advice of his Physician, that his Right
Him. Friend was prevented from attending ; and
that, if his health was restored, he would resume his
seat in tie Committee.

Lard CASTLEREAGH having expressed his
regret at the cause of the absence of the Right Hon.
Gentleman from the Committee, proposed that in his
plaise the name of the Honourable Gentleaan (Mr.
Calcraft) should be added to the Finance Committee.
Mr. 'BROUGHAM hoped that the Noble Lord,
'as a Member of the Committee, would have no ob-
jection to state to the House, what progress had been
made by the Committee, aad when its Report might
be expected to be presented to the House.
Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH replied, that the Report
was now drawiog up, but that he did not expect
that it could be presented to the House before the
Easter recess.

Mr. CALCRAFT expressed his sense of' alp ho-
nour that bad born conferred on him by adding his
name to the Committee, and promised to give his
attention to the busineu committed to their charge. -

POO& LAPPS.

Mr. CALCRAFT then rose to present to the
Home Petitions from the inhabitants of two different
parish's in the county of Dorset, complaining of the i
eacesum pressure of the Poor-rates, and praying for
some alteration in the Poor Laws. He begged
the attention of the Noble Lord (.Castlereagh) to thel
statement contained io these Pennons. One of them,
from the perith of Lankley, stated that that parish
cootaised 575 inhabitants., of whom 419 at this too.
l!neat are receiving parochial aid t that the Poor-rates
na that parish amounted .to .18s. or 19s. for every
pound sterling of vack.reat ; and that *funds would

be, at the present rate of disttibution, exhausted by
the 22d of this month. The other Petitirin was from
the parish of Swanney, which contained a greater
number of inhabitants than the other, and it stated,
that in it the Poor.rates arnotmted to a guinea on the
pond st!o ling of rack-rent. He knew that the facts
stated in their petitions were true, because. they had
come under his own observation, as the parishes were
in his neighbourhood. The inhabitants of these two
parishes were principally engaged in the stone trade,
the tat? total stagnation of which had :teen die cause
'ot their present distress. Toe Petitioners had not yet
been compelled to have recourtc to a rate in aid, ow-
ing to the liberality of the gentlemen in their neigh-
bourhhod, at the heard of whom, be was happy to
mentioa, was Lord Eldon. But as there was every
probability that they would ultimately be obliged to
have recourse to a rate in aid, he submitted the pro-
priety of the Committee now sitting on the Poor Laos
adopting some it.easures to facilitate rates in aid. It
was quite evident that some great alteration was lokf•
cessary in the present system of the Poor Laws, and
he SAW no more effectual way than by making the
holders of funded property contribute towards the
maintenance of the Por.r. There was no reason why
the utmost publicity should not be given to the 11:4111CS
of persons possessed of Wetted property ; and if this
were done, it would then be vet y easy in every parish
to saddle the inhabitants of it who possessed funded
property with their share of the Poor-rates. He then
moved that the Petitions be brought up.
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought the cases .of
the petitioners worthy of attention. Dot he thought
it worthy of notice, that throughout the kingdom a
great proportion of the expense of labour appeared
not under the head of labour, but under the head of
poor rates ; because the farmers generally acted on
a very false principle, by compromising the poor
rates, by acceptiug the labour of paupers, whose
wages to the wnole amount were thus said to be poor
rates. It must not therefore be supposed, th it 'when
it was stated that the annual amount of the poor
rates-had started from three milliuns to sesett
that the number of paupers had increased in the
sane proportion ; for the fact was, that a gre it part
of the money laid out on the wages of labour was
disivised under the name of poor rates. At the
iai»e time, he did not mean to say that this m ide it
at all less necessary to provide it poss,ble some re-
inedy for the heavy pressure of the poor rates; only
it was necessary to correct what was likely to pro-
duce a false impression as to the real amount of the
poor rates—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CALCRAFr explained.. He agree.] per-
fectly that, in agricultural districts, a great propor-
tion of money laid nut in the wages of labour was
put under the head of poor rates. But that did not
apply to the petitiOners, as they were not engaged in
agriculture, belt in the stone trade, which was now
su a state of complete stagnaiicao.
Mr. CUItWEN agreed with the Noble Lord
.reprobating the pernicious practice which existed in
many counties of mixing the wages of labour with
tioors' Rates ; but there were many parts of the
country where the increise of the Pools' Rates was
not to be accounted for in this way. With respect to
tie fund holders, it was indeed true that a great pair
oi the property of the country for want of-Means of
coming at it, had hitherto escaped from bearing its
share. The More he contemplated the sublet!, the
more he was convinced that the House ought, before
they separated, to take some measures for subjectang
the futid-Holders ro their fair share of the burdens of
the Pam's' Rates, withoos-whiih-it--wbald be found
impossible to continue to relieve the distresses of the
country. From every thing lie had seen of the Noble
Lord in the Committee, he was convinced that he
would. heartily concur with them in recommending
such measures as, alter a minute investigation, should
app.'sr best calculated to lighten the pressure of
this evil.. .

Lord COCHRANE said, what bad fallen from I
the preceding speakers sliewed the necessity for the
course which he should recommend with regard to I
funded property in the motion of which he had this
night given notice. To shew the distressed state of the
country at present, it was only necessary lb at rte that
at Manchester, in place of 295. which the workman
formerly received for weaving a piece of cotton goods, .
be now received only 7s. The wages of thi, person
were now etnirely consumed its rent, candles, and
paste, and the whole of his subsistence was derived
trom the parish. The cloths so manufactured and
paid for in this manner by the landed property, were
sent to America, and it was impossible for the master
to send them there it he paid a higher rate for weav-
ing. On the goods so sent to America, a consider-
able duty was laid by the American Government; so
that in fact a heavy burden was borne by the landed
Gentlemen of this country for the benefit of Ame-
rica. This state of things could not be altered till
the interest on the funded property was reduced in a
proportionate degree to the fall in the value of land.
It was notorious that in every part of the country, at
least in every part he was acquainted with, the far
met was absolutely unable to pay any rent whatever.
Such was the serious situation to which the country
was brought by a system of lavish expenditure. It
would be better to burn all our ships than to trade as
we were doing, for itwasnotorious that all foreign COM-
tnerce was carried on to our detriment at this moment.
He was persuaded, from what lie had been able to
ascertain from the writings of others, and from his
own examination, that no re;ulation with respect to
the Foots' Rates could alleviate the distresses under
which the country laboured. It could not be sup-
posed that the poor were to life down and die without
food : they must have support ; they were able and
willing to work, but there was no work for them to
do. He could not conceive any condition more pi.
liable than that of efese persons. Unless a remedy
were found, for the distress of the country, it would
be put an end to by means which they would all
wish to avert ; and lie was convinced that this re.
medy was only to be found in the reduction of the
interest of the National Debt, which was contracted
in a fictitious paper currency, at that dine much de-
preciated. Without such a step, the payment of the
interest would complete the transfer of -the land to
the Government, as the agents for the fund-holders.
Without spelt a measure, in a very short time the
proprietors would receive no income from the land:
A Mums on the Ministerial side of the House,
whose name we,could not learn, said, that he did not
think that the distress was by any means so great as
to requite that any dther kind of property should be

rated to the support of the poor, elan that which
present contributed. He anticipate! reecli from
due distribution of the sums raised for that Purpose •
her he found, on referring to Rennes made in ;
but net printed, that out of seven millions raised ter
the maintenence of the Poor, the sum paid by Over.
seers, for transperting paupers lent patieh tv parish,
was no less than ‘3oo,ooo—(ilear, hear).
Sir C. BURRELL said, he felt it Ins duty to pro.
test Ageinst the elect, ice held not by the Noble
( Lord Cochrane) ; fie was convinced that when. the
Furs Mulder was -trenched upon, and through him
h. nour and public faith were eiolAted, the peewit:
distress woold be increased tee-told. He augured
much from the present sta:e 0: thT WhiC;l ile:d
out a reasonable expectation thet titre itienied iteeeeet
would assist the landholefers by way ot mortgage,
whic:i could not be hoped for when the feuds eremite,'
five per cei t. on money invested. He was convinced
thAt Al), interference with the funditolder would there-
fore be an injury to the landholder also—(erk„,
He w is surprised that the Member for Carlisle (Mr.
(cui wen), wen was remarkable tor sound sentes sheuet
have j ailed in eo wild a theory AS the prepeen ice
bteAking faith with the creditor. Greet exertiens had
Oven made in the district lie was connected with to
employ the poor, even those scarcely als;e to work,
for the 'purpose of avoiding idleness and the appear.
ante of pauperism. He thought it would be most
desirable to ii.crease the circulating medium, which
would give a facility to the emeloyment of the 1.1.
bout ing classes throughout the kingdom, and wimid
do more to restore prosperity than any remedies which
had been proposed.
Mt. LOCK HART laid, he was anxious to correct
an erroeeeus idea which the Noble Lord ( Lord Coch-
mane) had either' expressed or implied, namely, drat
it was in contemplation, by way of reform in the Pour
Laws, to propose to refuse relict to Able bodiel
who were without employment. No arch idol we;
entertained, he believed, by any Member to the
House, and certainly not by any Member of the
Committee on the Poor Laws; the idea entertained
by the Committee, was t.i encourage Indust; y, but by
no means to refuse relief when industry teas :ewe
unavailing. He agreed in that had ti:en s.id by tee
Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) as to the bad teem
of mixing up Poore' Rates with the wages
but be denied that this system had been soleetery
the part of the landlords. When the pupil:ion in-
creased, and so many poweapplied for 'shish raiiet,
it was found impossible to give the same sum to the
single and rnarri.id men. It the unmarried men
ceived as much as: would support a family, they
would have spent more then they had any teed for ;
but as it was impressible to make any distinction be-
tween single and married men, in the actual rate ot
wages, the price of labour was razed at a low rate,
and an additiosed sum was given to those who bad
families out of the perish rates—(Hear,
It was not often he agreed with the Noble Lore* be-
low (Lord Cochrane), but he must say, he concerret
with him in thinking, that if that system :vas not pot
an end to, by which one species of pore:Ty was ex-
empted from all rates and taxes to which enters we'd
suhj ct, and diet refs to an amount equ it to all the
rents of the kingdom, it mast render all trade and in-
dustry wholly unproductive, and thus cht ep tee rods
on which it depended. He did not tri,ft to tee any
compulsory measure adopted, but he lookeu to tt.e
gond sense of persons heeding all species of property,
and trusted to their conviction of the expediency of
making some SAClitiCes for the security ot their own
and every other property.
Sir C. MOSEI.EY allowed that in many instances
in Manchester the weavers got no more than .seen
shillings for a piece of cloth for which they formerly
go: twenty-nine shillings, and that the rest ot what
was necessary for their aubsistence was made up from
the Poor's-rates. The average rate of wages was, he
thought, seven shillings and sixpence a week. But
the Poor's-rAtes, from which their subsiStence was
supplied, could not, in that instance, be considered
a tax nn the Landholders; the merchants lied wale.
houses, and rAteeble property in the town AA neigh-
bourhood. He was himself a proprietor of hand its
that town, And he by no means considered those rates
as pressing unfairly upon him..
Mr. BROUGHAM said he agreed with his Ho-
nourable Farad who'bed last spoken, as to the ohm
net in which the Poos'e-rates operated. He weld
not let this opportunity pass without pr ,testing is
well against the propose} of the Noble Lord (Cie
chrane), as that of the Honcurable B.lfUlirt (Sir C.
Burrell) who had profeseed so much abhorrence at
the Noble Lord's proposition. The difference be-
tween the Noble Load's project for reducing the in-
terest of .the debt, and the Houtn-able Batons es pro-
posal for incteasing the quantity of the circulittine
medium, was only the difference between two geodes
of bankruptcy ; or, as had been well eels/steed by a
celebrated writer on these subj:cts, the difference be-
tween sicret fraud and open violence—(.leer, hear.)
For what distinction could there really be, between
taking boldly a certain p9ttioa of his annuity twin
the creditor, and making that annuity worli so much
the less, by an increase of the leper circulati et I He,
for his own part. did not see mere good faith or jus-
tice in one proposition than in the other. Though it
was with hesitation that he differed from so respec-
table authority as that of his Hon. Frien.: (S:r C.
Moseley), he was afraid that Le had nutlet-rated the
distresses in the manufacturing districts—for from
the inquiries which he (Mr. Brougham) had felt it
his painful duty to make on this subject, lie was fully
persuaded, however grievous the f.rct was, that the
average rate of wages was not more than 3s. or M. a
week, This subject was a most interesting one, And
the more it was inquired into—as it was his inteutien
on Tuesday to call on the House to de—'t would be.
found that distress existed, of which the kionse
scarcely a conception—and that even thane Nletrieers
c.innected wi;b the manufacturing part ef tile coun-
try. were not aware of the wholly uuceempled Fres-
sure upon those districts.
The first petition was brought up and read.
Mr. CALCRAFP explained that lie had timer
intended to suggest any inimcsiou of peblic. I lite.—
He had wished to sue-rest to Members of the C.,J:a.
mittee on the Poor Lews the propriety ot making
come regulations respecting the rates :a r.e
other point which he had in view, wit:ch was prebahly
impracticable, was the making to :deg p:opetty rate-
able to the support of the poet.
The Petitiou horn Swanage was also read.
Loa FOLKSrONE said lielretel a relll1:1 1:"