Star.
London, England, 1811-06-19 00:00:00

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waned of the Sovereign in the country, they fell very short. He again de-
'est these imputed dnc.l precated the conduct of their leaders, in coming for-
.., !" ahe British Govern-1 ward at such a period as the present, when tile whole
....,. , seie exceptidt... hwere omitted in thel powers.of the Constitution were not complete. He
' . oaths of the .Irish Prelate's; ';,M-weirds of our own did notsmean to say there existed any practical deft;
• , Statute Book in the Act of 1778 ; the oaths of alle: tiency; but still one great branch of the Government
_glance and fidelity, 'which under the Acts. of 1774 was administered by substitution. It was neither
and MS, were freely taktn by all the Irish Catholics: proper nor decorous to come forward under sties cir-
. compared to these, what were the weak and flimsy cumstances. He lamented that their conduct should.
pretexts advanced against them ?. Were the argu. impose the painful duty on him in thus expressing I
moos against the Catholics to be numbered, and not himself; they had also imposed a painfultaskupon their
to be weighed, their case would he desperate indeed! Lordships. With such sentiments, such convictionarte
But what shadow of pretext existed of continuing the he felt upon this important subject, he must oppose thit,
Penal Code for the supposed security of the Protes- motion of the Noble Earl, convinced that agreeing to
tent Establishment ? The principle point insisted on it, noder the present circumstances, would eventually
was the withheld Veto which was said to clash with tend to destroy the fabric of that Constitution and-
the King's supremacy as head of the Church; but Government,which they professed somuchto venerate.
when this proposition was fairly and dispassionately The Marquis of DOWNSHI RE strenuously supa
examined, it would he found far otherwise, and that ported the Motion, the propriety of which he thought
-this formidable obj...etion rested upon no• rational peculiarly enforced by the circumstances of the times
foundation. The question was, in fact, the leaving I and above all by the war in the Peninsula, where his
the spiritual controul over the Irish Catholic Church countrymen, the sans, brothers, and dearest relatives
in the hands of a foreign power. Bet this had noiof the Petitioners, were generously and nobly sheds
connection with the King's supremacy, and it would I ding their blood in defence of that Constitution to
go loss to affect it than what was done daily with re- ! which it was only asked to admit them to a common
•
spect to the hire patronage of the Church, not only share. i
with respect to his Majesty, but even to every Protes- The Marquis of LANSDOWNE contended that'
tart Bish p in his diocese. Nay, evert the actual the Catholic disabilities formed no part of the Consti-
appointment of one of are Protestant Bishops is vest- tution of this country. It was true that motives of '
ed in one of his Majesty's subjects, viz. the Bishop of expediency had, at particular times of danger, long
Soder and Man. His Lordship adduced a variety of since, rendered it necessary to suspend the rights of i
reasoning in support of these positions, and proceeded the Catholics ' • but that never ought to be done after
to observe that an abandonment of the principle on the danger had vanished. Those principles, partied-
the p irt ei,f, the Catholics, on which the Sovereign larly dangerous, which had been imputed to the Ca-i
Pon:iff, ads the individual representing the Spiritual tholics, had been disavowed by them. Nay, they.
Head of their Church, in unity, would be as aban- had been disavowed in France 150 years ago ; and,
donment of the religion of their forefathers, and in above all, even by the Pope himself. Where, then,
which their earnest and sincere continuance An the ' was the use of applying the exploded opinions of
cause of these exclusions and disabilities, of which times long past to the present Catholics? He would
they so justly complain. He defended the character.' ask which of the great changes, which had lately
and conduct of the Irish Catholic Prelacy, as irre. taken place on the Continent of Europe, had been
proachable and blameless, during three successive re. I effected or arrested by the power of the Pope ?—He
hellions, during periods of war and peace ! He was . thought this question came every year before the
satisfied that if their Lordships would ge into a Corn. i House in the shape of a fresh question, because every
mittee, the Catholics could relieve the apprehensions , year it was bringing with it fresb proofs of the loyalty
of these who feared for the Clerical establishments the and affection of the Catholics of Ireland to the Con-
effect sof a withheld Veto; or, of any political foreign ' stitution, and o? their usefulness to the State. He
interference in their ecclesiastical arrangements. He I could not think but that the Catholics would feel it
was willed all these would be purely domestic. His' to be their interest to guard against any foreign in--
Lordship then passed on to a brief consideration of fluence, in the nomination of the heads of their Church;
the measure of the ibiterchange of the national militias, and also that their Lordships would take care not to
.as far as it WAS referable to the subject under consi- grant this great boon without exacting sufficient secu-
deration ; and though he approved the measure in , rity from the Catholics against such foreign influence.
other points of view, as tending to add to the military I This was only to be done in the Committee ; and he
power of the empire, yet, as he did not conceive the thought something ought to be done for the Catholics
freedom of religious worship adequately secured to towards the completion of the great measure of union
. the C rtholic under it, he disapproved the measure.— between the two countries. The motion had his en-'
He did not think the orders issued by Commanders in tire concurrence.
Chief a sufficient security. He referred to some cases, Lord REDESDALE rose, and conceiving him.
one particularly occurring lately at Woolwich, where, self personally alluded to in a part of Lord Donouglo;
he learned, an artillery-man was put in confinement more's speech entered into ajustification of his conduct
for refusing to attend a Protestant place of Worship. while in Ireland. He then spoke against the question
He was adverse to the freedom of religious worship as a political one, and contended that no pledge had
. being rendered dependent upon military orders. After been given at the Union, and used a variety of argu-
some further observations upon this part of the sub- ments to prove the inadmissibility of Catholics to the
ject, the Noble Earl concluded an eloquent and Inge- Ministerial situations.
nious speech by moving—o That this Petition be re- Lord DONOUGHMORE explained.
ferred to the consideration of a Committee." The Bishop of NORWICH urged the expediency
On the question being put, and policy of conciliating the minds of the people in
The Earl of LONGFORD rose, and delivered his gratifying their reasonable expectations. It had been]
sentiments at some length against the positions and the fashion of late, to accuse those who advocated the
arguments of the last speaker. The more he had cause of the Roman Catholics, as men who did not
considered the question before their Lordships, and understand the value of the interests of the Established
. the more he attended to the circumstances accompa- Church : he, therefore, felt himself called upon to say
nying it, the more he was convinced in his own mind a few words in reply to those unfounded and injuri.
of the justice and reasonableness of the objections he ous opinions. He considered the Roman Catholics as
entertained. He more especially felt an objection to numerous and respectable a body of men as ever lived
the time in which it was thought proper, by those and in any other civilized nation they would. hay;
who directed the affairs of the Catholics, to come for- been admitted to those rights which they claim with-
ward to the legislature, when the country was so unfit- out any of that bigotry, distrust, and jealousy, which
veurably circumstanced in that respect as at present. so unhappily existed in this country. It had been
'l'he conduct of these persons to whom he alluded, stated that he had inconsistently differed from the
was far from being such as tended to the peace and great body of the Established Church upon this sub-,
. harmony of Ireland ; on the contrary, he thought it , ject—that he differed from those around him was
tended to promote distrust and dissension, and to sow true, that he did it with sincere regret was also most
jealousies and alarms in the minds and hearts of the true, for no man could willingly differ from those wise
people. He differed from the Noble Earl as to the and good men who were of the same professino with
sentiments he expressed respecting the question of the himself ; it was some consolation, however, that if he
',Veto, and with regard to the line of conduct most differed with them, he agreed with many of those
fitting to be.pursued on such an occasion, and in such great and wise characters who were favourable to the
-a crisis. He thought it incumbent on the Governing measure ;in their opinions be most heartily coincided.
Powers, as far as human means or human powers al- He conceived that a union of heart and hand was
lowed it, to exert those powers for the preservation. loudly called for—that union which was the bond of
and tranquillity of the governed. He was at a loss peace, security and prosperity !
to know how the effects of a foreign influence was to The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE thought that
be prevented in Ireland, by means of what the Catho- if the conduct of the Roman Catholics for the last ten
lit advocates contended for, if a controuling power years was any ground for strengthening their claim,
were not to be vested in the legitimate Government the same argument might apply to those who called
of the country. Nor had he much hopes from that for Parliamentary Reform and universal represents.
domestic system of arrangement, in those respects, tion ; but the grounds upon which he should always
which the Noble Earl laid so much stress on. It resist these claims were, that the Roman Catholics
was well known how easily a factious and turbulent continued to admit a foreign supremacy in esslesias-
person could act on such occasions, in a way so as to
tical affairs.
produce the most lamentable consequences. They
had seen more than once how far the spirit of legisla- . The Earl of ABERDEEN, considering the situa.
tore regulations could be violated, without touching tom of the country, thought there never was a time
on the letter, so as to be amenable to their provisions! so wholly unseasonable as the present ; he should,
- ' the Catholics could rational] • therefore, vote against the. measure.
- ',NCER - himself the anxious

He could not see how _
complain in such A case. If they sought for equal
privileges with their Protestant fellow-subjects, and
\lint fi their

Earl SPE_ professed
friend of the petition.
Earl CAMDEN shortly opposed the measure.
ELLO'

withhei a necessary contrnuling power from
common Sovereign, it could not be for placing them-
selves on an equality, hut in a state of superiority.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—This position he thought incon-
trovertible. In ‘A hat he said, be meant not the least
reflection on the great body of the Irish Catholics,
among whom were many he not only highly respect-
ed, but was in habits of intimacy and friendship with,
but he referred merely to those who conducted their
affairs, those wlm called themselves the Committee,
whose conduct, as he had said, was any thing but
what was likely to establish union and harmony in
the country. His Lordship referred to some of their
proceedings, They had thought proper to vote their
*nits to a person of the name of W. Cobbett, and
another of the name of P. Finnerty !--while they
cesimsred some of the highest official and judkial cha-
racters in the conn:ry, and some of the most respect.
able of their own body, particularly a Nobleman who
had evinced himself friendly to the Union, and
etchers who set their face against their endeavours to
effect the removal of the Viceroy.' The Noble Earl
had greatly over-rated the numbers, powers, and cowl
sequence of the Catholic inhabitants of Ireland,—
They formed a great majority of the population, it
Was cruel but with respect to property and influence

HOME OP COMMONS.
Mr. MARTIN presented the Second Report on Sinecure O.
en, and Mr. TAYLOR presented the. Report on delay of slits
in Chantey, both nI which were ordered to lie on the table.
The Birth and Burial Register Bill was read a first, and ordered
to be reel a second time to-morrow.
A new writ was ordered to be issued for the Borough of Abing-
don, in the county of Bucks, in the room of Mr. Bowyer, who
has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
Lord FOLK ES TONE presented a petition from John Drakard,
printer and publisher of the Stamford news, praying fora reduce.
mem of his sentence.—Ordered so lie on the table.
Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE rose, pursuant to notice, respecting
petitions for private bills ; and moved, that it be a standing order •
of that House " That all petitions be presented on or before the
first Friday, after the first fourteen days sitting in any Session of
Parliament." •
He also moved—" That all standing orders of that Home he
referred to a Select Committee."
Sir JAMES GRAHAM and Sir PETER MURRAY sup-
ported it.
Mr. SIMEON thought the time too short, and anticipated
many inconveniences which might arise, and wished the time ape-
.cified to be extended a week at least.
After a GA" words from the 5 . , Mr. Ross, and Mr.
PoNsortar, the motions were agreed to.
COLONEL cavea's rirrtrus.
Mr. P. MOORE presented a petition from Colonel lames Oli-
ver, formerly in the service of the East India Comings', having
served under them at Fort St. George several years, eating, that
In 1808 the Directors discharged the petitioner without trial,
contrary to the Articles of War, and praying that that Honour-
' able House would inquire whether his conduct deserved a dim
, nsissal without assigning the cause r
Mr. P. MOORE moved that the petition do lit on the table;;
and observed, that for three or four years his letters and addresses I
I
have been continually returned, unnoticed by the Directors. i
Mr. WALLACE opposed it, on the ground that Colonel Mei
ver's conduct had been very reprovable—he had been detected is
i
conunerctal transactions, contrary to orders; that after berg re.;
proved for his conduct, he was detected a woad time. He also!
' tefused a liberal offer to relinquish his proceedings. He would
also state to the House one grand came for Isis-being dismissed from
Fort SL George, which was, for lending money to the Fong ars.
to the3et.reme injury of his employers, and abusing the trust that
was reposed in him.
Sir E. MONTGOMERY spoke highly in favour of Cot. Oil.
ver's military merit.
After a few observations from Mr. P. Moots and Mr. Es.'
TILL E, the petition was ordered to lie on the table.
PRISONERS OF WAR. I
Mr. Christy, from the Transport Office, presented
at the Bar of the House, an account of the number
of prisoners of war confined in the prison at Dartmoor.
Mr. ROSE said, that these papers were brought
up in consequence of the representations of a Noble
Lord on a former night, whom he was sorry not to
. see now in his place (Lord Cochrane). According
to the Noble Lord's statement, it would appear that
the prisoners were dying to the number of from SS
to 40 in the week ; but the documents now before
them would prove, that the Noble Lord's information
was so far from being correct; that the proportion of
deaths in the last year was in the ratio of two to
100, a proportion he believed under the estimate of
ordinary mortality. The situation of the prison would
also appear to' be extremely advantageous, and it
would be found, that human ingenuity could not con.'
trive a building of the kind better calculated to pre.
serve the health of its inhabitants. There was a
stream of pure water running through the middle of
it, and every care was taken to make the accommo-
dations as comfortable as possible.
Mr.TYRWH ITT declared,that sofa. from making
a job of the prison, for the accommodation or prcifit of
any individual, the sum of 840,000 was saved to the,
public by bui ding it in that place ; and so far from'
any inconvenience or injury arising to the prisoners
themselves, from being placed in such a situation, he
would venture to state that there was no part of this
country more healthy than the spot on which it stood.
Sir CHARLES POLE thottght that some Reso-
lution should be proposed,stating the facts mentioned
by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr—Rose) and the''
Hon. Gentleman behind him ( Mr.Tyrwhitt), and also
containing some acknowledgment of the good con-1
duct of those to whom the care of the French priso-
ners was committed. If any motion to that effect
should come from the opposite side, it thould have his
most cordial support.
Mr. ROSE said the statement was of importance, ;
as a wrong impression on th.s subject might operate
to the diladyantage of our own prisoners in France,
and it was in order to prevent such an impression, and
not for the purpose of any triumph over an individual,
the papers were thought necessary to be made public..
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT expressed his satisfac-
tion at the account which Ministers were able to give;
ibut was sure the Noble Lord would never have made
the charge, if he didnOt think that he had som:. ground
to support it.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, that since the first in-1
troduction of this subject, he had received a letter
from the Member for Plymouth, dcaytng that he had
ever exerted any influence for the building of the pri-,
son in that situation, or received vany benefit from it:
The papers were then ordered to lie oa the table
and to be printed.
MILITARY PUNISHMENT& 2 3' *
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT rose Pptittant to no-
tice, to call the attention of the Honor to the present
state of corporal punishment in the army. He fel:
it necessary to enter into some explanation of the rea-
sons which induced him to withdraw the. original
notice which he gave on this subject. For several
years past the subject lay on his mind, and many
Members knew that it had long been his intention to
bring it before the House. Hearing, however, from

.is - -
some General Officers that there was a disposition in
the Government to do away that Which it was the
of his if not immediately, finally to abo•

The LORD CHANC_ It was against going object _motion,. • 'L..'" --
into the Commit.ee, because no good could possibly lids, he refrained from briuging it forward, although
arise from it. his feelings were much excited and interested. At
Lord HOLLAND, in support of the question, the time of passing the Mutiny Act, he had hopes
that corporal punishment would have been abolished.
test between the Crown and the people, whether it was
asked whether the Revolution in 1688 was not a COD-
The aggravated case of the Local Militia-man ins-
pressed the object stronger on his mind ; he was called
not ,then decided that the Government belonged to
the governed, and not to the Governor ?from which on, as it were, by this accident, and accordingly came
He',
contended that the granting of this motion would down to the House to state his own sentiments. He
intended, however, that the case of Taylor should be
not be a violation of the Bill of Rights. lie warmly
supported 1110 motion. only an illustration of the general arguments • con-
ceiving, therefore, that some Gentlemen might 'be led
Earl MOIRA said, he certainly should support it
on the grounds which he had formerly done. away by the narrow appearance of the notice, and
Lord GREY said he would support it with as much
might not think it candid or fair in him to bring the
zeal as he ever had dune ; and no argument had
whole subject of flogging. the soldiers under the con-
been introduced that night to induce him to vote to :nitration of the House in such 'a way, he Was in-
the contrary. duced to give a new notice. Other reasons also' con-
cuffing, shssermined him to submit the motion in its
Lord REDESDALE said a few words in opposi-
tion to thr Bili. present forint 'the press was absolutely silenced op ,
Lord DONOIJGHMORE briefly explained 1... Olt subject, and prevented from expressing its feelings 1
after which the House divided, when there appeared, on the spreading of a practice so opposite to hums-
For
For Lord DonOughtnore's motion..-Contents 54..... nity. Severe sentences had heen.ipassed an two emi- 1
Proxies 28-614—Psgainst•de motion—Non-contents ant public writers, pn the ground that- they had de.l
76-. Proxies 4.5-I2L-7-Pdijority against the Rom dared the Dritisharmy to be injured, and that it was
89,..-Adjouracd la one Vdock. ;he Wont wile* in Europe,-(Hear, Afar, frail Nr;

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