Star.
London, England, 1819-12-14 00:00:00

'tights and-Magna .Chaeta were iramed?—(iter).--
The Noble Lord then proceeded to point citdifferent-
circumstances which existed in the year 1791 when
a prototype of the present Seditious Meetings Bill was
passed, and the present state of the couutry. It Was
also a question with-him how far the levying oil
twelve thciusand soldiers in time of peace, without
consent of that House, was not an invasion, of the
Bill of Rights.? The tranquillity procured far this
country by force would not give security-. If the
ex pression of feeling were pent up, it would be likely
to burst out with greater violence at a future' period,
it it did not lead to a crime which he would not
name, because it was a crime foreign to the nature
of Englishmen. He contended, that the -restrictions
which were proposed to prevent the communication
of the ideas of persons residing in different parishes
were altogether unnecessary. On the whole, though
the Bill had certainly received many amendments in
its passage through the House, it was still a measure
of which he could not approve, even for that period
to which it was proposed that it should be limited.
But, looking at the temper of the Government, he
thought there was reason to believe that this Bill
Would not expire when the five years should be at.
an end. The probability was, that on some ground
' or other its renewal would always appear necessary.
That this Rill was intended to produce a govern-
ment by arbitrary power, he would not assert ; but
that it tended to take away the means of resisting ar-
bitrary power, no man could deny. Though he
would not suppose that this was the object of Minis-
ters, he could not but suppose it 'impossible for them
UM to see that such must be theconsequetice of pass-
ing it. If they would not suffer the turbulent spirit
now abroad to evaporate in the expression of its
grievances, they took a course which would neces-
sarily produce that state of things that would make
it almost impossible to return to our ancient state.—
Iletherefore thought this" Bill, ilk did not absolutely
'go to annihilate the libertiei of the country, would
be likely to impair them most considerably—Wear).
.Mr. ROBINSON said, that no man was more slow
than himself to see danger in the ebullition of popular
feeling. But when he looked to the state of the
Country, when he in-mire i into the grounds for ap-
prehending the progress of a mischievous spirit in it,
he felt that it was impossible to resist the belief that
we were very seriously threatened with danger. • He
would not look to the-state of the manufacturing dis-
tricts ; he would not measure the distress of any por-
tion of the People. in order to ascertain whence pro-
ceeded the causes of alarm. No, he would refer
back to Lhe eventful period of the French Revolution.
The extraordinary irritation of the People; the tu,
multuous spirit which diaracterized this Country- at
that time, neither i.riginated in, nor were fostered by
the prevalence of distress, for there never was a time
whe.i the commerce of the Country was in a more
lout ishing state ; when trade was better encouraged,
or labour better recompensed, than at the time of the
French Revolution. Yet it was at this very era of
prosperity and comfort, that the seeds of Revoletion
were sown in this happy laird. Many remethbered its
p.agress: all had witnessed how the spirit was spread
abroad, and what a gigantic aspect it at last assumed
hear, hear). At no period since theevent of that
lievolotion.had the spirit been extinguished. • What,
he would ask, Was the danger which threatened the
Country now ? That danger presented itself in the
avowals of the parties themselves against whom the
Bill was pointed. He would refer, for instance, to
the Meeting at Birmingham, where the most auda-
cious attack, that the most audacious Reformer could
invent against the majesty of the Constitution,
had taken place. Sonic, indeed, had imagined,
that no notice should be taken of the proceedings
of this Meeting, because they proved to be so ridir
culous as to deserve no serious attention(lfear)..7-
But he begged to remind Gentlemen; that at no pe-
riod since the French Revolution was there an Occa-
sion of general danger, in which there *was not an
instance of the unio . of the ridiculous with the ter-
rific—(Hear). Bat it was not to this Meeting alone
that he would refer for the manifestation of dangers.
He would call the attention of the. House to the
Meeting at Ilunslet Moor, the Resolutions of which
were in substance the same 'as those agreed to pre
viously at Birmingham. What did these Resolutions
deel tie? They declared that it was the wish of
the leaders at these Meetings to effect a national
union of the People—to assemble an overwhelming
mass of the population, with the view of agreeing to
Petitions, and if they failed of success, to resort to
other constitutional means for effecting their objects.
What must be the idea which they entertained of the
Constitution ? The Meeting at Manchester had been.
often alluded to, and great stress had been laid on
the circumstance that the first intention to bold ai
Meeting in that town had been abandoned. But'
why was it abandoned? The individual himself who.
was the prime mover in all the Meetings, had dea
dared, that the Meeting hod not been put ofFbecausei
it was imagined by him and his party that them
would be any illegality in assembling ; but, he
said, because the intended Meeting was not expected
to be physically able to vindicate what he called
their right to meet, in case there was any opposition.
The Meeting was then postponed ; and it was well
known that exec tions had keen made in the mean time
to enlarge the attendance of the population. All
these circumstances, and the reflections naturally
'springing from them, made an image of danger in his
mind, greater than any that had ever threatened the
country. It was said that the present Bill invaded
liberty ; but he wished to know, was there no dangerl
to liberty from the continuance of such Meetings as
those he had just adverted to ? Every one ac-
knowledged that there was. No person who had
yet expressed an opinion on this subject, denied
that the prevalence of these Meetings was a • very
alarming evil. If the fact was their so, he wbtild
ask, could there be any thing more injurious, at
lease to the public right of meeting, than the ne-
cessity which all admitted to exist, of having these
Meetings almost superintended by a military force?
What, to effect, was the state to which the freedom •
of the People would be reduced, if such a condition
of things were once established ? That tbe. people
had a right to meet, no man pretended to deny ; bat
that right, like every other, was to be
featrestrai
ir
purposes of greater general security. He
Government was driven into the adoption of tbeSe
measures, and however ranch he regreued the necer
shy, he could not avoid giving- his decided support
to thfrn. It had been said that public discontent

,aree-se. however, that, the liberty eon-
: tile Honourable Gentile/Iran, v4;is. not
: -.. am- rights, hut the power of dis.
in :he possession of them, or of exclud-
ether from them--(Cheers). That kind
old he best represented by the bird called
rd that pierced with poisonous fangs all
,-,a for its prey—(Cheers). With respect
alt measure. on which the honourable
so strongly animadverted, be must de-
his conscientious opinion, that it was
ice with any of the principles of the Con-
ft: gave his support to it on-a knowledge
of the disturbed state of the country,
vany papers which had been laid on the
commencement- of the Session. lie
society, during the last twenty or thirty'
inderrone more material changes than itl
ice the Conquest. There had been an
light thrown in upon the lower orders of,
a all matters in which the public interest
way involved, greater than at any other
:istory. He did not regard this circunal
jealousy. On the contrary, he looked '1
obit of free, open discussion, which had I
period been acquired by the Press, as an
recession to that guardian of our freedom.
the Press had arrived as that degree of
wliieli had been well denominated the
and blasphemous" Press, aiming at the
e
of all the good feeling and morality of
passe-, it was time to adopt sense measure
fiction—(!leer, hear). bayou. elute,
lade the peculiar object of its play I,and
1 insidious means were put in practice, it
ound that there was an under current in
:lasses if the community, hastening all its
ao a vortex of sedition—(Hew', hear). He
an to say that those classes were not to be i
ro.discuss their grievances; but he would
tat subjects which invelig essential changes
,:iples of the Laws and Constitution, were
s they should be called to deliberate upon.
at commentators could feel that vvern.
a restriction on their natural liberties,
were tardy to perceive also the advan.
derived from it—(llear, hear, hear).—
lw of nature that those who earned their
!, by daily labour, were not capable of dis-
ich matters, It had been truly said, that
,cnowledge was a dangerous thing ;" and
ied equally. travefigion, to politics, and to li-
The roan who dipped slightly into litera-
n danger of deserving the-appellation of a
critic. If flalsourer should quit his daily
rthc sake of listening to objections 4ich
urged io'thedoctrines of mligion, he. Auld
to becoate an infidel. If a ploughman oc-
rose boors, which, .after his regular toil,
devoted to the discharge of his social duties.
ing over seditious writings and papers, he
certainly, be likely to become a turbulent
1-1-ar, A azr). Pea the last three years it had
'tooted to bring the ordinary rights to the
ii array against the Ordinary duties of the
Attie. . It had. been argued that its practice:
ow the aim of the Legislature to restrain ;...-
-eye not interfered with in good old times.
readmitted this as an argument he must be
tat such things were pertniued. He must un-
that history had taught him. Why, these
:etings were never thought of by our races-
al if the laws of the good old times did not
sach acts, it was because such never existed.
it of the old legislation was to provide new
new casei--(Haar, hear, hear).—The present
was stigmatised as an interference in the
petitioning; but, in justice, it did ntit de.
That right consisted in the power of CCPM-
,:ing freely, and of expressing publicly the
.'.,ls thus communicated ; and, he would-isk,
pussible to be accomplished in those screech-
,yling Meetings, where the speaker was un-
eltend his voice sufficiently, to be understood
aelitieih part. of the multitude? He would
: ale hundred Meetings were convened in
, where the speaker might be heard ; or, if
!ming of 10,000 persons were convened, when
aild not possibly be heard by more than one
,:edth part, which of these two plans would be
ainducive to the right of that free communi-,
of sentiments ?—(hear, hear, hear). He w ouh)
~i.t;e the honourable Gentleman (Mr. I-lutchin•
)a :hat point. It was contrary to the elemen-
ninciples of society, that the physical force of a
:ry should be let loose upon it in that manner:
intended, that it was not the expression of the
:tots of the People that was the object of these
it,,,,,, but an expression of their physical force.
physical power which, in the first stage from
&ism to a state of society, was chained up and
me a moral power, would, he was aware, OCCA.
illy sliew itself in nations; but then, it was only
11. purposes of Revolution—(Hear, hear).—He I
extended his observations to a greater length!
-..te had at first intended on rising to answer the
‘cio..:l of the Honourable Gentleman —(1 lenr;
';.—He again declared, that none of the Meet-
whica in Ireland had always taken place under
'r, would be affected by the provisions, of the

u;,.!er d
d MILTON said, that as much as he was in.
• ti, do credit to the able and eloquent speech of,
honourable and Learned Gentleman, *RI
: him utter so many sentiments that weirti
better calculated for the beginning of the
centory than the preient period, that he was
.:1 to make a few observations in reply--
',ea:J.—The Right Honourable Gentleman,
• .:.ur,e of his speech, had said, that there was
lu thrown in upon the country, that it
nLc-s. ry to take
.measures to diminish it—
No, nu Ifro* Me Mizisterial Beaches).--
that 4,a little knowledge was a dangerous'
meaning, fur the lower classes of the com
• IL! meant, then, by that, that it is noces-4
•• • f a stop to its further progress—(No,llol)-
•.: 2,i1 not mean that, the Right Honourable,
incsat nothing—Viper, Aear).—He eer-
re:,....;eti:ms were requisite. Might not
.3 1., !.+ have been held .when Luther and
'4ll the w.nk of Reformation, to dispel the'
of the middle ages? He also said, that
• . List to Guy ;ears, gitater changes have,
• ,\ ,aught than at art, former .period. What
.3
44
"I
to .tbe Perin& in which dit Dill of

. a . .
ought to be allowed to evaporati at these Meetings.:l4 Withdraw,* was kindly repeated Vo-'-oi the e Oa. 0154
But the spirit which evaporated from them, was a! several times. The gallery was nearly cleared,Ur heir •
•
pestilential spirit, fraught with poisen and death ; and Mr. SCA. RLItTI• was observe' veito rise .for the ppspot4 , .
if measures of compression were not devised against' of addressing the House. The Messengers, however,
it, the country must, inevitably, perish under the! persisted in forcing strangers from the gallery and
noxious exhalation, and, instead of handing down , closing the doors. It was understood that the
liberty aad morality and justice, to our posterity, I Stamcsa countermanded the order for strangers td
we should be the unhappy originators of that wretched ' withdraw, but certainly the Messengers up stairs
state of society so well described by the Poet : were not aware that he did so. .
" Dimness quid non inuninuit dies? Mr. SCARLETT was proceeding to speak (the
" JEtas parentum pejor avis tulit
" Nos nequimes, mot daturos gallery being locked, and strangers excluded), when
" Progeniem vitiosiorern." •
Mr. W. SMITH, though he admittedthe sting Mr. LAMBTON lose and said, that if it was in:.
tended that the House
to
have been taken out of this Bill in a great measure, should proceed in the discus--
sion with closed doors, he should move as an Armada
by the Amendments which had been made, for allow- ment to the question, that the House should forth:
ing Public Meetings to be held under cover (for the with adjourn. .
limitation of the Bill as to time he thought of less
importance), still objected to the measure. He Ott the return of strangers to the gallery, after a
very short interval, the SPEAKER was explaining' tbe
strongly disapproved of the powers to be given to ground upon which the proposition of the Honour-
the Magistrates under this 11111. They had heard able Member could not be entertained.
much of an unpaid Magistracy. He would say this Mr. SCARLETT then rose; and said, that he
was a narrow view of the case, and he might almost would very willingly admit, that the power of holda
say that they were not unpaid. There was.a French ing, in future, such Meetings at those against uhialt
story in point, that occurred to him, An old Cheva- the Bill professed to aim, ought to be taken away.
that day, who was coming out at the same time.
valier de St. Louis, on leaving the Theae, The reluctance with which Ministers proposed these
run to pay their homage to a celebrated Actor measures to the House gave him great satisfiction;
crowdbr
. .
521- as if was a proof oar sensible they were to the Ma
road they made upon the liberties of the People. Hi
44 What 1" said he, g 4 and are you to be thus followed
however, that he heard with different
and distinguished by the Public, while no notice is would confess,
taken of me? Ought you to be thus rewarded, while s a Right !ion. and Learned Gentleman near feeling
him (Mr. Plunkett) defend them on the ground that
'l, who have
. so long been fighting your battles, get
'nothing ia.—" Nothing !" replied the Actor, o Do you the were quite in the spirit of the Constitution—:
Did the Constitution require that there should
tall it nothing to have the power of accosting me as (Hear).
be no Meetings of SO or ,10,0(X) persons to discuss a
you do?'' He with the same feeling would ask, if it
constitutional principle, or that the right bf meeting
was-to be thought nothing that the Magistrates en-
should be at the discretion of a single Nlagistrate
joyed those powers which were confided to them a—
Hear). It this were the Constitution, he had had a
Of that unpaid Magistracy, he believed the far greater (
portion of them would rather enjoy the privileges different idea of it hitherto. But he did not stand up
they now enjoyed, than be turned into paid Magis. to quarrel with all the principles of this Bill ; an tiks
contrary, he thought many of its enactments necessary.
trates with moderate salaries. For those who did
their duty in a proper manner, it was much to pose What he found fault with was, that it neut. further
sess the power of doing good ; and -for those (if there than even its pioposers intendeJ. Meetings in them-
were any such in the country) who sought to recom- selves, he contended, were not dangetous; they were
mend themselves to the Higher Powers, they only only indications of danger to spew the spirit of the
looked forward to payment tit futuro, instead of in country, and therefore, as mediums of information to
presenti. He felt it to be his duty to oppose the Bill. the' GovernMent, should. not be suppressed. fig
Mr. LONG. WELLESLEY.-a-lf he thought the pre- would ask, was it more prudent to suffer the noxious
sent Bill went unjustly to infringe on the liberties of vapours of concealed discontent rather to fester ia
the people, no motive would induce him to give it his Private, than to evaporate and he harmless. Ha 4
this Bill confined itself to the dispersion of Borough
consent. He, however, could not see that it went to
M
aeetings, or assemblies of persons in large Manufaca
had ffect a
those
right to co
enjoy. liberties which the people
curing Towns, he wouia be the last to resist. it; bat
why direct it against the respectable County Kat,
Mr. WILLIAMS considered this Bill to go further
in s, constitutionally convened—those Meetings taaat
than the evil complained of warranted them in going.
in the eye of the law have been always held to be Sa
Had it gone no further than to prevent armed and
respectable? True it was, that there was a likelihood,
tunniltunos Meetings, trainings to military etercises,
or Meetings to which the parses marched with flags such Meetings might become tumulttious; bat were
not the laws in force quite sufficient to guard against
and banners in military array, he would have given
any bad conseqtkences from them? lie, for One;
it his cordial support. When it was said, that it did
not infringe the rights of the people by confining could not possibly be alarmed at their frequency:
then.' within the lima; of their own parish, if dig- There seemed, however; to prevail a good deal of
posed to petition. he would gate a case to refute the panic aaci alarm amongst Gentlemen cat this subject;
assertion; he knew a case whet* the latallord- who and what was not a little remarkable, more amongst
tceive4, and..the (*Mier who paid rent, formed all those who were most remote from the scene of the
the population of the parish. Hewished to know how disordeta. Whil.t the Members of these districts we'!"
they, being forbtdilen to attend a Meeting in another keeping back, Gentlemen of the \Vest laboured Oder
parliba were to: erterciie the right of pefitioning?— great anxiety ; and even the ister Kingdom, which
was always held up by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh)
StaOnf as this case was, he could adduce cases still
stronger. He hoped the subject would be se.consi. to be so peaceable, on this occasion furnished the most
steady. sopporters of the new measures—(llearl.
dereci, and implored Ministers to sympathize with
_ But oh, these Irish Gentlemen, forsooth !arc ansiopt
the sorrows of the People, and to abstain from resist
ing motions that it was not pretended were impro- to save the remaining liberties of this country. Ital,
per, but which could only be objected to because did they propose to do it ?-Was it by putting it sr
the power of a single Magistrate, who at best was iio
they were said robe brought forward in the spirit of
mote than a man, to disperse a Meeting- converted
party. By an inquiry, he believed, a great portion
existi under the authority of the High Sheriff, and in every
of the
respect Censtitutional ? Now, let us see how far this
Rived that tng distress might be got rid of. He be- o
encourage emigiation was unnecessary,
is he was confident that the country contained within
Itself the means of beneficially employing the whole P
a its population. lie wished to see a moderate and power would look, by the test of applicability, to
for that Body) full of prejudices and. politics of his
Practice. Here was a Magistrate (with. great respect
. own. A Meetin is about to be
,convened, which
-
rational Reform effected, and this done, the whole
.happens not tog plice in eraetly with his notion a
.unt,y_would. look tip to that House with respect-
things. He is not content as a politician to be passive
and veneration as to the best guardian of its -best
s*and dearest interests. • on th he M
e occasion—ust prevent the Meeting being
right
LorcaMOßPETlkconfessed, that from all the in.. held. An easy course is Peen to him—he needs only'
formation he had been able to obtain on the subject, go,pretend there is some one there who ought flat tat
be there, proclaim it an unlawful assembly, and slap
he was 1;4 to conclude that the Meetings which had
at: over and above twelve persons, who
lately been held disgraced and distressed the menu- ject every o
after the proclamation, to transportation for
facturing Li; Arias ; .and. he was compelled most re- remaill-
luctantly to, believe, that if not repiessed by legisla- seven
yearsk All this, too, in regard to a aleetihg at
Lion, they must be put down by the strong arm of which a High Sheriff may preside; and what made
it still more unjust, not for any act of their ov.ii, but
the civil power, aided perhaps by a military force.
of an individual, over whom they had no controul--
He could have wished that it had not been through
necessity that the Bill shoUld continue in force so long (Hear, hear). Was this the.doctrine the Right Hon.
as five years. but still, under the peculiar circum- Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) would contend for ? He
would go a step further, and state a stronger
stance* of the court. lie .felt himself bound to vote in
case, not at all out of the teach of „probability.—
its tirour.' The_ err Qt the discontented was; that
they-;voirld have 'the Coastitticipn, the *hol Consti. Suppose a Magistrate employed a person, he would
• • Annual not call him a spy, to attend the Meeting. A copy-
aption, aotlaaptbinglnit tha Constitution ; an.
parliwucs
,ima 1./aiieral SOffrage were, according .holder, for instance, who, whatever property lie
to themvesaential. parts of 'die Constitution. They. might have, not being a resident, was not qualified
declared that they ' wpilld. consider their -rights td be to• attend. A proposition i; made,- which lte,(the
Magistrate) does not like; he makes proelamatioa
withheld, and their wrongs to 'rill:tail; unredressed.
give the name of the person iihorn
to dispersg—tlie .Igeeting refuse—he declines, as be
till .theie concessions were made; and they added,
' that it was to theniselves that they must look for re. is not obliged, to
dress, which they felt they possessed sinple nit-arts of heauspects of aeina there, 'proalamatioe is made a
second time, and in consequence of this Mais'o caprice
securing: He aesctibed the arts' by which it was
or malevolence, all who remain afterward;- are sub-
, atteroged to inDime, and contended the present
though it was
measure,said to infringe the liberty of jected to such dreadful punishment—( Hoar, hoar);
the Subject, was necessary tei previa a greater in- .I.t was not even necessary to resort to this,l* a Ma-
gistrate might go to a Meeting, and take his chance
friiigement on the liberty of'►the People*(26—
' Mr. Burke had described true liberty to be Connected
with order, a and so connected that it could not at
Of proclaiming that strangers shoula withdraw, trust-
ing in the end to find some one or. other. there, who
I-exiii Without it." He did not suppose that the was not a freeholder. Was this the fteedom of Eng-
lishmen, thus to place the lives and liberties of so many
• . rt., and the order of Which Mt:. Burke spoke were
to be form& in those proCtisions, marching in mill"
taryhim; Whicb had been seen advancing to Meet-
tugs like that-of Manchester. But it was said that at the di eresion of one man? He observed, however,
there was an!xception in favour of Meetings in rooms{
A wise proviston,(orsemth. All parties seemed agreed
ilstead of measures like those now prisposed, conci: that there were discontents amongst the People.—
laation ought to be tried. Vie had yet 'to learn why
measures of concOlation could not be resorted to p
Then. it was better to suffer them to talk over them in
rivate.free from the inspection of any Magistrates,
be and that. Government should know nothing at . all of
after these Bills had pissed, a-
-- contended, really
the mote the duty of dov,
' tuna an ear to their iglu
w
had not been carried.
do all in their power
People, and endeavour,
with South America,
industry. At present
the protection which they
able, quiet, ntelostrious,
poptilation-..-to ritietle •
principled demagogue's.
uphold the -Coristitetion,
The question .Wari then a.
Member appearing -deatrons

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. psse and it would perhaps be and tnasmovvr ..... ‘... ---- . -
)f Government and of that House the mutter, He contended, that if there was•seallY li
eir complaints, than if such laws any Idanger at all, it was better to suppress the right
to meet altogether, than by confining it to narrow •.:
ed. He hoped they would then tI,
'er to , relieve the distress of the bounds make the force of it stronger—Wear; heir).
There was another clause to which he begged the at.;
our, by improving our crinnection '
.
:a, to And new markets for, theit: tentiPb a the Bowe. that was the clause praaibit- • • I
.
:nt it was their duty to remember ing Meetings for the purpose of discussing .any thing i.
h they owed to the loyal, peace- connected whb trade, manufisctitress or professions. ' 1
This latter provision, he observed,, was made in she
ions, and •unrepining part of tiui
:tie them from thV grasp of an. Committee, as -the clause Originalfy m4df )Was only
guessio vindicate our religion, :loci against tits discussion of subjects of public grienoi;c9; • I
seson, % Nor Itt wpiiid risk, what woud, !,11e cnOsecps.ent. d .
st then loisdly called for, and'iko -a a.ffeatber yniutiqg -4 number ak a
S -desirous so speaks the 'AI Of KA* Ctox urn !Gal,. or A 200445 t about
. .
• .
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