Star.
London, England, 1803-05-25 00:00:00

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FARLMMENTARr PRoCEEDIsGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, MAY 14.

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Several Private Bills were prefented from the Commi;ne.
Some defultory converfation took place refpcciiog one or two
provitions in the Militia Ad.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and on being readmitted,
Earl DARNLEY was movies, that certain Papers which had been
laid before the Commons, thould be laid before their Lordihips alto.
Lord AUCKLAND obferved, that the Noble Lord did not feem
to be well acquainted with the forms of the Houle when be thus
moved for papers en asefe--the more regular way being to move
for them feparately. But, as his Majefty's Minifters did not mean
to withheld any informatftin from Noble Lords, he would himfelf
take the liberty of moving for the Papers alluded to, we by one, if
the Noble Lord bad no objedion.
Earl DARNLIT thanked the Noble Lord for having let him right
In point of order, and giro for giving him an opportunity of re-
Reties the fentinaents be had expreffed laft night, but which, from
'the impatience of the Houle to difpofe of the queftion before it, he
apprehended were not severally known. He did with, therefore,
to be underitood as having molt cordially fupported the original
Addrcfs, from a convidion that it was by unanimity alone the
Independence of the country could be preferved.
Lord Auc AAAAA moved, that the Communications interchang-
ed
between the Breech sad Americas lkepubiles relative to Lout-
Gana be laid before their LordChtps
That all Orders and Counter-orders Hiked to Governors and
ttittunanders relative to the Cape of Good Hope be laid before thou;
Alfo, That all Communications and Orders iffued refpeding the
Blends captured daring the war in the Welt Indies be laid oa the
Table
That the inftrudtions given by M. Tailcyrand to M. Fanvelett
at Dublin be laid before their LordihipsrOrdered. Aadjoureed.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
We yelterday -explained the circumitances which
prevented any account of the proceedings of Monday
from being given to ;he public. We underhand that
Lord Hawkeibury opened the debate in a fpeech of
great preparation and confiderable ability. He con-
cluded with moving the following Addrefs :
That an humble Addrefs be prefented to his Majefty, to return
bin Majedy the Thanks of this Houfe for his moft gracious
(age and for the Communication of the kweral Papers, which have
been laid before them in obedience to his IViajetty's command.
To alrere his Majefty of the Jed fade we entertain of his Ma-
jefty's an:lima and uniform endeavours to prnkrve to his people
the Mew of Peace, and Of our perfect confidence In his Ma-
Jay's difpolitien esteeming. the ea of war, whenever that
as be accomplifhed, with the honour of his
s Crown, and die interefts of his people.
we have °Versed, with the ftrongeft feelings of indigna-
tion, that his Majefty's endeavours have been &nitrated by that
reakfs fpirit of ambition and domination by which the Govern-
ment of Prima have been led to advance pro:canons the molt ex-
travagant and injurious, and to avow dedgns at once inconliftent
with theebligstions of good faith, and with the effential interetts
of Edda limptre, and that for there indignities and proven-
does his Maar Ms id vain demanded fatidadlibn and redo:ft
That sashimi by thdc fentinsents, we feel that the emit repofed
in us by a hews Indio/al people, requires on our part a firm de-
terminatiou to easeeparate with his Majeßy in calling forth the re-
fs:arm of the UAW Kingdom for the vigorous fupport of a caufe
in which are involved the ?lenity of his Majeftea Crown, the
rights and liberties a* people, and all that is dear and valuable
to us as a free and independent natio°.
Mr. ERSISIII made a very able fpeech; upon
which Mr. Pitt rofe and delivered a very brilliant
fpeech, unifying the war on the aggrelflons of France,
but without defending, and indeed very little touch-
ing upon the condo& of Minifiers. Mr. Pitt's fpeech
is allowed to have been one of the belt he ever de-
livered. It was in a Rile of greater moderation than
had been expo red ; nor did he introduce any matter
of irritation towards thofe by whom he had generally
been oppofed.
Mr. GAILY, in a very argumentative rpeech,
ed that there was hill an opening for negotiation,
and propofed as an Amendment to leave out from
the firil paragraph to the end of the queftion in order
to infers there words : u To affure his Majeßy of our
firm determination to co-operate with his Majeßy in
calling forth the refourees of the United Kingdom,
for the vigorous profecution of the war in which we
are involved, and to exprefs to his Majeßy the fatis-
fadion with which 'his faithful Commons have re-
ceived his Majefly's gracious declaration, that he
is willing to afford, as far as may be conflftent with
his own honour, and the intereß of his people, every
facility to any jult arrangement by which the blef-
lings of Peace may be redorecrto his loyal rubjeds."
Mr. Wilberforce, the Secretary at War, Lord Car-
tlereagh, &c. (poke, and the adjournment of the de-
bate was propofed by Mr. W. Smith, and at lalt agreed
to. We take tip the debate, as refumed.
TUESDAY, MAY 34.
The Order of the Day was then moved for refum-
ing the debate °flail night on the Addrefs to his Ma-
jetty refpeding the iffue of the late negociation,and as
loon as the Addrefs and the Amendment propofed
thereto were read from the Chair,
Mr. T. Giamatti.' role to take the fiat opportu-
;thy of ex prefling his featiments on this trul y important
quellion now fubmitted to the confideration of the '
Houfe. He was anxious thus early to declare his
opinion, left he Mould be unable to obtain a hear-
ing at a later Rage of the dircuifion. In the view
which he was difpored to take of the fubjed in the
fiat initance, he did not imagine there was much
room for expatiating upon it, as there was in his
mind one powerful and irrefiftible motive which
Should fo confine the debate as not to leave any range
for what was not fo clsfely conneded with the mo-
tion. No doubt a fubjed fo momentous, a queßion
fo ext d and involved, mull embrace a great va-
riety olohenfible topics ; and for the convenience of
debate it miht perhaps be proper to confine 'it to
one. But, for his part, when he viewed the critical
fituation of the country, be felt impelled by a com-
manding link of duty to attend to one great caufe,
a caufe that hood fo eminently over all others, and fo
much beyond the reach of any other conliderationi
that thofe who felt as he did Inuit look upon that
motive alone as of futficient weight todetermine them
in the difcharge of the great and preifing duty which
they now had to His Majeßy has acquaint-
ed the Hoare with that of intuits and indigni-
ties, and eneroaehments on the part of the French
Government, which has compelled his Majeßy to en-
ter into a war. If there-be any Gentleman who he-
litotes to believe that there does not coil! a juR ground
of war to provoke his Majeßy to enter again into hof-
tilities, they may think themfelves juftiSed in examin-
lag the quellion in a different point of view; but
A thofe who, with him, malt difcover in the conduct of

the French Government a juft caufe of war, and the
unavoidable neceliity of refilling that conduit, will
doubtlefs feel it their firft duty to remove from the
prefent difcuflion every thing that can prevent the
Houle from coming Ito a prong, unequivocal, and
unanimous expreflion of their readinefs to furnith his
Majefly with every poflible means of manfully fight-
ing that jolt caufe, and not to liften to any other to-
pic of ditcuflion which may (land in the way of that
firft duty which the Houle is folemnly called upon to
difcharge. He had been among the firft to complain
that information had been withheld from the Houle
refpeding the Situation of the Country : he Should
now be among the firft to congratulate them on fee-
ing this fubjeft of complaint removed,and Parliament
reftored to its juft rights, by receiving the informa-
tion that was now on the table. He might at firft
be defirous to include in hisview all the fubjefts which
that information comprehended, but he felt it fo far
a tranfcendant duty firft to examine, whether there
was juft caufe of war or note that he was anxious the
difcuffion might be confined to that queftion only,
unembarraffed by any collateral confiderations. The
next point to be confidered, after eftablifhing a juft
caufe and right of war againft the French Govern.
ment was, whether it was expedient to profecute it ?
The Declaration alerts, " that the period which has
elapfed fince the conclulion of the definitive treaty
has been marked with one continued feries of aggref-
fion, violence and infult, on the part of the French
Government ; and that their proceedings appear to
have been altogether incontinent with every principle
of good faith, moderation and jutlice." Indeed the
grounds of complaint and of war are fo numerous
that the greaten difficulty attending the difcuffion of
them arifes from their very abundance. Yet, numer-
ous as they are, and ably as they have been dinuffed,
it becomes every man to State the grounds on which
he revs the juftice of our caufe. For his part, he
looked upon the mere aft of feuding over perfons in
the apparent character ofCommercialCommillioners,
who, under the mark of peace and amity, and while
they claimed and enjoyed the rights of hofpitality and
the regard and attentions of the country, treacher-
oufly converted thofe very marksof civility into means
of deftroying that country from which they received
them. Could any condud be more bonne and un-
principled, and did it not of itfelf furnifh a jun caufe
of war, and Would it not in the firft inftance have
been relented as Such ? cry ofbear! hear!) He did
not mean at prefent to cancan the condua of Mini.
(ten; on the contrary, he was Studious to abftain
from mingling that fub jed with the que Ilion now more
diftinftly before the Hottfe. All he elated was, that
in his mind the eircum fiance be had juft touched upon
was of itfelf a jolt caufe of War. On the linens of ag-
greffion and aggrandizement purfued by the French
Government,Would not now dilate : Though
their condo& with refped to Piedmont, to Swit-
zerland, due. was neceffarily involved in the pre-
fent difiuffion. All and each of there inftances of
provocation afforded a fufficient caufe of war, and
the ftrongeft and moft indifputable proofs of the am-
bition and fpirit of aggrandifement which aduated
the French Government. Much weaker grounds of
complaint would in former times have round the
indignation of the country, and provoked it to a
war. But it will be Paid that the condua of France
with refped to Holland, Piedmont, and Switzer-
land, Would net be regarded as a caufe of war by
thofe who fupported the Treaty of Amiens. The
Strength of that caufe is much weakened by refle&ing
that when the Treaty of Amiens was concluded,
there could be no doubt of the influence which France
exerted in Holland, Switzerland, etc. and here he
might be permitted to remark on the great argu-
ment which was urged in recommendation of that
treaty, much Reefs was laid on the tone and temper
difplayed by France at that period. It was obferved
that a pacific difpofitiou began to arife in France, and
that a fair ex Ration might be conceived that the
would henceforth ceafe to porfue plans of ambition
and aggrandizement. But where were the proofs of
that pacific temper and difpofition which was fo con-
fidently to be relied upon? Were they to be found in
the punfluality and fidelity with which France ob-
ferved canting treaties ; were they to be found in'
her treatment of Holland and Switzerland ; or in
her annexation of Piedmont? or rather, have not all
there arguments their full original weight againft
the propriety of the Treaty, and does not the whole
of that part of the condud of France furniSh a Strong
and irrefiftible cattle of war, filch as would have
been aged upon in former times, and which he trail-
ed would now be manfully and fuecefsfully taken
up? But, if there provocations be not amyl enough,
may we not turn our attention to what has palled
in Egypt ? Is not the condo& of France, in that re-
(pelt, a dired breach of the Trea of Amiens ? By
that Treaty France has guaranteed the integrity of
the Turkith dominions; and that not only with a
view to Turkey Wilt; but with a view to. the future
fecurity of our own pat-Moos. But on what could
that fecurity be now laid to reit ? What proof had
we that France had abandoned all idea of attacking
Egypt, and of extending through Egypt her holtile
attacks upon India ? Was the proof of that fecurity
to be found in Sebaftiani's Report? Or ratber,did not
that Report remove all doubt refpeding the defigns
of France upon that country ? Indeed, where any
doubt could remain upon that point, it were idle to
attempt convidion. It was in vain to fay that Se-
baßiani was employed on a commercial miffion only.
Did not Bonaparte, in his converfation with Lord
Whitworth, reprefent and acknowledge him as fent
on a military miffion t And did not his ambaffador
hare defcribe him in the fame light ? Here then again aili
is another infraftion of the Treaty of Amiens.
are not the fame views betrayed in his condo& to-
wards the (even Moods, to which Seballiani not only
pmmifes the political protation of the Fir& Cooful,
but Mr. Romeo 'HO holds out his protedion to the
catholics, on condition that they put up their prayers
for the happinefs of Bonaparte ? Does not the whole
of this coodad on the part of France, with retard to

Egypt, a condud avowed by the Firft donful and his
ambaffador in this country, afford an unequivocal
proof of the hoftile intentions of the French Govern-
ment, and their total difregard of their guarantee of
the integrity of the Turkifh dominions ? Does it not
alfo appear, that they, have fuggefted to a great nor-
I them Power the probable partition of the Tutkiih
empire? and is there not ample evidence to prove
that in cafe of that partition, France espetts to get
poffeflion of Egypt ? Indeed that is a project which
(he takes no pains to conceal. Here then is a pofitive
and abfolute breach of the Treaty of Amiens, which
furnilhes a ftrong, and legitimate caufe of war ; and
when a hoftile difpofition is thus manifefted by the
French Government, are we not juftified in adopting
every meafure that can tend to our fecurity With
a view to the fecurity of Egypt, we fhould therefore
retain Malta. But it is laid, we are bound by treaty
to evacuate it. Granted that we are, if France had
not violated that Treaty ; but as France has violated
the Treaty, we fhould be jultified in retaking it, if we
did not atually poffefs it ; and if fo, we are jullified
in retaining it, although by a 'previous Treaty we
had confented to evacuate it. But he fhould not here
enter into the minutiz of the toth article of the trea-
ty of Amiens—the fame difficulties now attended the
execution of it, which he had obferved and infifted
upon when the Treaty was fit-ft under confideration.
Indeed the very impoffibility to execute that article
juftifies us in retaining the iflaud. Thus much he
walled to fay oldie many inftances upon which the
juftice of the war might fairly be grounded—he had
now a word or two to fay refpeding its expediency.
If a war is again embarked in, our fituation, it is Paid,
will be dangerous, and the confequences would be
injurious to our cafe and comforts. Were we not
fully prepared to meet thefe privations, we thould
deceive ourfelves. We have no choice left but a
choice of evils. But before we change peace for war,
we mould examine what we lofe—ls it peace we cx.
change for war ? Surely not, but a doubtful uncer.
taro truce. We facrifice nothing ufeful or valuable,
but endeavour to refcue ourfelves from a fituation,
fuch a fituation of fufpence, agitation, and anxiety, as
the country has been condemaed to for the haft two
months, a fituation involving in it all the dangers
and expence of war, without any of the advantages
or comforts of peace. From that fituation, if we
with to extricate ourfelves, we muft now bring to
the conflid every thing that heart, mind, and means
can exert, and little doubt can be entertained of its
fuccefs. We already may difcover the effeds of what
a fpirited conduit, and a firm and refolute attitude
may produce. We have teen Louifiana already given
up. Will that furrender be attributed to a return of
*Jake and moderation in the mind of the great con-
queror ? By thofe who obferve rightly, it will not—
No--the real caufe of it are the preparations we are
making; and inftead of its being a proof of itiftice
and moderation, it is, on the contrary, an unequivocal
indication of an hoftile mind—its °hied is to deprive
us of the alliance of America. Now a word upon
the propofed amendment.. He could not fee how it
differed from the original motion, and it appeared to
him that at the prefent moment there was no duty
more incumbent on every man in that Houk than to
endeavour to fpeak the fenfe of Parliament, and of the
country, with one unanimous voice. Much was to
be gained by that unanimity, add there was nothing
which he would not willingly facrifice to- obtain it.
As there was no real and material difference in it
from the Addrefs propofed, he was fur rifed, and
fineerely lamented, that it fhould be perflfted in. It
could only have the effect of weakening the general
declaration of what every Britifh heart thould feel on
an occafion like the prefent. The country was placed
in an arduous and dangerous fituation. But fuch was
his confidence in the mind, heart, and fenfe of Eng-
liffimen, that be was fatisfied they would furnill
means equal to the exigencies of the cafe, and that
their caufe would ultimately triumph. If the coow
try proved true to Will, and Parliament was true to
the country, there could not be a doubt bat that we
fhould come out of the contell glorious and fuccefsful.
Mr. WHIT11111.1•D warmly fupported the amend-
ment of his Hon. Friend, Mr. Grey. The Hon.
Gentleman who (poke laft earneftly called for unani-
mity. He was equally anxious for fubftantial unani.
mity, and as defirous as any man that his Majefty
fhould be fupported with the lives and fortunes of his
fubjeds, if war was inevitable. He was ready to fa-
, crifice every thing but honour and confcience, and he
did not fear to put it to the Hon. Gentleman who
(poke laft, and to the Right Hon. Gentleman under
the gallery (Mr. Pitt), whole fpeech of laft night had
made fo powerful an impreffion upon the Houk,
whether they imagined that they could, with a fafe
confcience, give a vote of approbation to the eondud
of Minifteri? It was impoffible that he could concur
in fuels a vote, unlefs he were convinced that Mini.
tiers were uniform in their endeavours to maintain
peace ; unlefs the whole of their conduit was to be
approved of, how could he approve of the propofed
Addrefs? Thole who really wiffied for unanimity
fhould vote for the amendment. The amendment
went to pledge the lives and fortunes of every man
in fupport of the caufe of the country; but it abftain-
ed from delivering any opinion on the cemdud of
Minifters; that condo& was far from giving him
fatisfatlion, and be was therefore averfe from con-
founding it with the prefent queftion. He was not
for narrowing the view that fhould Se taken of it;
nor did he conceive how it could be difcuffed ab-
ftradeslly from the condo& of Minifters; it was ne-
ceffary to confider the Reps they had taken in the
courfe of the negociation in order to judge of the re-
fult ; nor could a jolt idea be formed of the mcafures
that were now to be putfued, without a reference to
the management of the negociation. In thefe obferv-
ations he was not satiated by any thing like party
fpirit, he was anxious only to promote the real inte•
Tells of the country, that anxiety was much increafed
when he law the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt)
in his place, and when he heard him deliver that
molt brilliast ipeeell, which wade to powerful as

impreflion upon the Houfe. He expeaed much
the opinion which that Right Hon. Gentleman wi
exprefs, and deep was his regret at the view wl
the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken of the fubj
For if the fate of Empires might be faid to hang
the lips of any one individual, it might be laid to
pend on the part which the Right Hon. Gentlet
has taken in the prefent quertion, a part which
ft [merely regretted was ft) different from that in wl
he thought himfelf jut-tined in viewing it. For
part, if the country was now again involved in
though much was to be expeCted from the fpirit
valour of the nation, yet he could not contempt
without horror the confequences that might am
it. was therefore lorry indeed that the Rig
Hon. Gentleman's opinion had not been in favour
peace, and that his wifdom and talents were not
crud to maintain it. He was not furprifed to 1
thefe who continually called for war, contend
there now ezifted jolt grounds of war. Indeed t
have been afferting the fame thing ever fence
conclufion of the Treaty of Amiens. But thofc
concluded that peace, fhould be fomcwhat more
ous to maintain it. Much has been faid, as a groi
of war, of the infults offered to this county;
France. He could affure the Houfe, that no
could be more alive than he was to any infulr
could be offered to the honour of the nation, ant
was ready to confefs that the French Governmei
bad been rather lavifh of them ; but why did
Minifters demand and obtain fatisfadtion at the t
thefe indignities were put upon the country ?
not have then appealed to the fpirit of the country
If they wifhed for a caufe of war, why not then 1
demanded fatisfaCtion, and if it was not grant
why not have proceeded to force? But alma in e,
inttatce a hope was held out that the permanence
peace might be relied on. In the debate, howr.
on his Majefly's fpeech on the opening of Parliamet
he did not derive much fatisfaaion from the opinic
then expreffed by the Honourable the Chancellor
the Exchequer, and at the dole of that debate
preffed him in dire& terms to deliver fome opinion
on the then fituation of the country. The ant
was, that no danger was then apprehended for
premanency of the Treaty of Amiens. Yet, at
time application had been made to Minifters for
fiftance, to the Swifs, and arms and money
fumifhed to them, which might well be interpreted
an ad of hoftiliti—but when it appeared that
other Power would concur with Minifters in affifting
the caufc of Switzerland, all further attempts in behalf
of the Swifs were given up. The fame irrefolution
and uncertainty marked the coodua of Minifters
fpeding the evacuation of the Cape of Good Hi
and on this fubjed no light had as yet been thro,
Notwithftanding all thefe contradictory meaf
hopes continued to be held out by Minifters,
there was no apprehenfion that the Peace of Amiens
would fo loon be broken; and there hopes the Right
Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Excheque
again infinuated on the loth December, in his
mous flourifh on the financial profperity of the ci
try ; and again, on a later occafion, when a motion
was made refpeding the Eftablifhment of his Royal
Highnefs the Prince of Wales—it was therefore dd.
ficult to fay when a real provocation was given,
recurring to hoftilities ? But, the Hon. Gentleman
(11r. Grenville), afks what the country gives up
going to war? He fhould only ate him in return,
what were the feelings and opinion of the country
when war was announced r On this point, it was hi
opinion, that if every human being in the count..
were polled, it would be found that not one of then
would confent to receive an infult from France, or
allow it to go unpunithed ; but on the other hand,
let their opinion be canvaffed on the fubjea of •
conduct of Government refpeding the renewal
hoftilities, and let them be allied, whether in their
confcience they believe, that Minders have done
their power to redrefs the infults they may have
ceived, and to avert the renewal of war, their anfwet
would be, they have not. The Honourable Gen.
fleman then proceeded to enumerate the different
grounds that were adduced to juftify the war, the
lending of commercial commidloners on perfidious
pretences, the demand refpeding ithe liberty of dr
prefs, and the fending of obnoxious individuals
of the country in violation of the laws of hofpitality,
all of which, either fhould have been treated with
(corn and contempt, or fhould have inftantly been its
quired into and explained. Even the aggrandit
ment of France as a ground of war, could not w
be juftified by the negotiators of the Treaty of __
miens ; for at the moment that treaty was figit
France enjoyed the fame power and influence in Hol.
land, in Switzerland, and in Italy. that the now e
joys. The German indemnities have of late been-
introduced, but though the whole of that fyftem f
plunder and robbery bas been to long in prepare.
tion, yet Minifters never adverted to it till it
accomplitbed. Surely the Houfe will gravely cons
der, before they content to plungethe country ane'
into a war without any fpecific objea. If the coy
try is to go to war, the objea of the war film&
diftindly explained, and the people fhould koi
whether it was not predicable to attain that obj
without going to war ?
The Hon. Member here took a view of the tray
of M. Sebaftiani, of the nature of hisipamphlet, a
the probable objeift of his million. In this, he fa
that there was nothing of new matter to prefent
the Houle. conlidering it as a political anion. fi
Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite him had told
Houfe at the time of figning the treaty of Amiens
terms, if not in words, that Egypt was well Inn
to be a favourite objea with the Firft Could. A,
molt alluredly, if Egypt was then well known to 7
favourite object with the Chief Confill, the laurels
which the Britifh troops had gathered in that coml.
try, mutt inevitably tend to inspire his military .
afpiring fpirit with a ftronger &fire, and more ardent
zeal for the accomplilhment of that favourite object.
Malta, which was now ferionfly contended for, a
particularly by the Hon• Gentleman who (pada