Star.
London, England, 1821-02-06 00:00:00

AGRICULTURAL INTERESTS.

Mr. GOOCH said, that seeing a Noble Lord (Castle-
reagh) in his place, he wished to know from him if
it was the intention of his '.Majesty's Ministers to pro-
pose any measure with regard to the Agriculturists
of the country? Although he knew there were many
in that House much better acquainted with agricul-
tural matters than he was,- yet in case his Majesty's
Ministers did not intend to institute any inquiry on
the subject, he should think it his duty to move for a
Committee to inquire into it.
Lord CASTLEREAGH rose and said, that the
interests of the class of his Majesty's subjects alludtd
to by his Hon. Friend, he was satisfied, would re-
ceive due consideratiOn from the House. In answer,
however, to his Hon. Friend's question, he shonld say

IPw°

~~_

.i.;r,

bat his Majesty's Ministers did not intend. to origi;
nate any measure on the subject. Theinquiry made
into this subject, last year, carried no remedy. In-
deed, to him, it appeared that the distresses of the
Agriculturists were not attributable to any deficiency
in the laws. They were entirely to be attributed to
the internal circumstances of the country. He was,
however, sorry to be obliged to confess that his Ma-
jesty's Government were enable to propose any mea-
sure for their relief. Though they would not charge
themselves with the instituting of any measure, yet
if an inquiry were proposed, they would most wil-
lingly go into it. He should, at the same time, most
cautiously and most distinctly guard against any im-
pressions of giving relief by going into an investi-
gationo-imptessions very easily created, but after.
wards very difficult to allay. He should go into
these matters more fully when the Committee were
sluing—that would be the proper time. Though he
should not take on limself the responsibility of
moving for a Committee, he would, however, feel,
great pleasure in going into it.
CeNsUite ON THE coxoucT or MINISTERS.
The Marquis of TAVISTOCK. said he rose, in
compliance with the wishes of his friends, in order to
ascertain the sense of that House on the merits of the
question of which he had given notice on a former
day. He never, on any occasion before in his life,
felt the inadequacy of his powers so much as at pre-
sent. The question, to the examination of Which
they were now to come, required greater talent than
he possessed; but, very forotuately for him, it had
undergone so much discussion throughout ie coun-
try, and was made so plain in that House, that no-
thing now remained. but to express their resolution
on it—l Hear, hear). He trusted that that House,
which had signified its reluctance to entertain the
reseeding% in the first instance, Wonld now, after
their experience, come to the resolution that they
were proceedings pr: during pure and unmixed evil.
lie trusted that the Ilenourable Member for Bram-
bar would now be disposed to admit, that his pro-
phecy of this being " an inquiry derogatory from
the honour of the Crown, and injurious to the best
interests of the People," was now sufficiently verified
(Hear, hear). He would abstain from entering into
the hi-tory of the proceedings that had taken place
the other House, and strictly confirm himself to an•
etamination of the conduct of Ministers, which, in
whatever circle, or by whatever body considered,
was unequivocally and universally condemned.—
There would be now another opportunity given to
ascertain if the feelings of that House were in unison
with those of the People, and tehether they were ca-
-1 onniated by the Reformers? He would not travel
into the history of the sufferings of the unfortunate
Lady herself, neither would he attempt to place in
contrast the present conduct of her persecutors, and
their conduct towards her when she was in prospe-
rity. That conduct was fully before Parliament, and
they had formed their opinion upon it. The exclu-
sion of her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, had
bzeu already fully discussed, and indeed decided
upon; and after the able speeches, and especially the
powerful one of an Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man (Mr. Wetherell) that had been heard in that
Lkiuse on a former night, lie should feel himself un-
wart anted in occupying the time of the House in any
observations upon chat subject; he would merely say,
that he had been taught from infancy, that it was a
golden rule, in no case to be departed from, that where
a doubt of guilt existed, the party charged-was to
have the benefit of that doubt. He must ever con-
sider that act of Ministers not.enly as an act of cruel
injustice, but also of pure and Unqualified mischief.
Rash and impolitic, unjust and illegal, as that act
was, he confessed he was not ono.who regarded with
dismay the decision of the House that night. If he
was successful, the vote would he hailed by the coun-
try as the first earnest of that Reform which they all
so much wished for; and he trusted that the table of
that House would be loaded with Petitions from
every corner of the kingdom, and that something
might ultimately be done towards rendering that
House what it ought to be, the organ of public opi-
nion, and the effective cootrouler of Ministers—
( Harr, hear). The next act of hostility,by Ministers
was the preienting a Green Bag to both the Houses,
of Parliament ; and he would ask these men, when
they brought down this Bag, fillod with documents
which the world MAY knew to to. of the most dis-
gusting nature, did they, or did they not believe the
st ttements it contained ? If not, they were guilty of
an act of treason to the Sovereign, the People, and
' the Queen. If they did, they were still mere guilty,
because they sheaved an utter disregard for the ho-
nour and safety of the Crown, and even for consist-
ency, for they said to the aueen—" We have against
you proofs of licentious intercourse as strong as Holy
Writ; buf we ask of you to consult our convenience;
remain abroad, here are fifty thousand pounds per
annum for you, out of the pockets of the People r-
I nstez I of acting for the honour of the Crown, which
they had professed to have at heart, they effectually
brought dishonour to the Crown, and disgrace on
Parliament. Then came the Bill of Pains and Pe-
nalties in the other House, where the country had
seen those persons sitting as jurors, Who had per-
sonally stigmatised her Nlajesty, and where there,
were others haying a deep interest in the issue of the
trial. It was not his purpose to enter into an exami-
nation of thit anomalous measure. He would merely
stop to express his abhorrence of the disgusting de-
tails, which were poured forth from day to day, and
all of which might have been spared by not entering
into this unnecessary inquiry. When the Bill was
Withdrawn, the country did indulge in the reasonable
expectation that,. with the abandonment of the Bill,
the question would be set at rest for ever. But it ap-
peared that her Majesty was deemed unworthy of
the rights and privileges of Queen Consort. The
Noble Lord opposite talked even of a technical ac-
quittal, and then asked if her Majesty. Was entitled
to the fall restoration (Wall her rights and Privileges?
Of all the doctrines that he had ever heard, none
appeared to him more monstrous than that which
sanctioned the whispering away a person's character,
who had been tried and acquitted. If such a prat-'
Lice -'were adopted, what safety had any man for
kiereputation? He utterly protested against that
clew principle of the Noble Lord's, according to
which, the House was to treat her Majesty, sot as a
per Dan legally acquitted, bat according to its impees-
'ions of the evidence adduced against her. He
so unjust
/ (lusted that the llonie would not Mallon

a precedent. He exhorted the Iktise to adhere to
tistsuirvwm of the Constitution—the,/first of which
Was to proinnse a person innocent ufitil found to be
`guilty. If there was any one who had a greater
claim to the benefit of this maxim, it was the person
who had been tried and acquitted. BUt it seemed
the Noble Lbrd had stated as a reason, for the pu-
nishment of her Majesty, that she was in open hosti-
lity to the prerogatives of the Crown. But what
was their conduct with this statement in their
mouths? They gave her £50,000 a-year as a pecu-
niary provision, and denied her the lull restoration
of her rights, because, they said, she was guilty of
that on account of which she not only ought to have
a small-provision., but deserved to be impeached;
could it be endured, that after having failed to esta-
blish the direct and open charges, they should now
attempt to destroy her character by insinuations?
This was not the language of Ministers at the com-
mencement of these proceedings. The House were
told, that either the Bill would pass, or that her Ma-
jesty would be acquitted and restored to all her
rights and privileges of Queen Consort. Yet, not-
withstanding this assurance, the Bill being with-
drawn, her Majesty was still treated as if she had
not been acquitted. Was this anything like the con-
duct of statesmen? It was more like the vacillating
system of the present Ministers ; but the time would
come, sooner or later, when they must again re-
change their plans, and restore her Majesty s name
to the Liturg% He had heard of men ready toll°
anything for the security of their places. But such
a charge was never made with more truth than
against the present Ministers, because he believed
they retained them at the expense of acting contrary
to their own private judgments. For the sake of office
they had dragged an Illustrious Person to trial ; they
had done an injury to religion by making it subser-
vient to political purposes ; they had brought con-
tempt upon the constituted authorities, and made an
irreparable breach between the Parliament and the
People—(Hear, hear). These were heavy charges.
But could any one lay his haild to his heart and say,
.that Ministers were actuated by any of those motives
by which they pretended to be guided ? They had
also, for the first time, connected with their measures
the personal feelings of the Sovereign. The most
disgraceful part of the whole case was the use which
they allowed to be made of the name of his Ma!esty,
arid the attempt which they made to shift fioni them-
selves the responsibility of their own measures. Was
this just to the Sovereign himself, or was it in ac-
cordance with the concern which they pretended to
feel for the honour and dignity of the Monarchy ?
However Ministers were saatctioned by the usual ma-
jorities, and he was afraid ag4nst the judgment of
those who supported them, he could assure the Noble
Lord opposite,' that whatever might be the fate of
this motion, he would give him but little trouble
hereafter, seeing that the Noble Lord's will was every
thing, and the sense of the People nothing—(Hear).
He begged pardon for thus occupying the time of
the House. The question would be more ably treated
by those who were to come after him, particularly
,by his Hon. Friend the Member for Durham. He
, was led to make the motion from a strong belief that
he would be acting in obedience to the sense of the
country. Whatever might be his swishes for the pro-
motion of his friends to office, he was still only
anxious fur a change of measures; and he could as-
sure the House, that he would rather see those friends
where they were, than see them in the possession of
power upon the condition of pursuing the system of
the present Administration. For himself he aimed
at no preferment, so unfit did he feel himself for
office, and so indisposed was he towards it, that he
had lung ago formed the determination to accept 011
office under r Administration. Even a seat hi Par-
liament was no object of his ambition, only inasmuch
as it enabled- him to be of use to those whom he was.
disposed to serve. Not unwillingly would he at any
time relinquish even the honour of a seat, seeing
that public opinion had less influence here than in
any country, perhaps, in Eutope. Warmly as he de-
sired the removal of the present Ministers, still if his
friends were to come into office to-tncirrow, without
putting the principles of Reform into action, he, for
one, would not give them his support—( Hear).—
If the spirit of disloyalty existed in the country, the
Government had encouraed it, Let the House only
recollect the cheerful submission of the People to the
mustoppressive burdens, and then reflect upon the tone
with which they had been treated ! It was inipossi-
ble not to admire their patience under heavy trials
—their peaceful demeanour, combined with their
hatred of oppression, and their memorable interpo-
sition for the protection of her Majesty. lie be-
sought the House, on whom the eyes of the country
were fixed with anxiety, to consider well the merits
of the question, and to remember that the country,
at le.lst the great majority, baal already loudly pia.
claimed their disapprobation of their proceedings.—
(!he Noble Marquis »as cheered loudly at the coa-
clusior, of his .vprech ).—He then Moved that.
" It appears to this House, that his 'Majesty's Miniticrs, In
advising the recent measures aguiast her Majesty, were not jus-
tified by any principle of political expediency dr necessity, and
that theft conduct in so dying bad led to consequences deroga-
tory frosts the honour of the Crown, and injurious to the best
interests of the Nation..
Mr. LAMBTON said, that in rising to second the
motion of his Noble Friend, he felt satisfaction that
much of the difficulty of the task had been removed
Lby his feeling and eloquent speech, and because he
was proud at being united with his Noble Friend
against measures which, in his opinion, were calcu-
lated much to injure the best interests of the coun-
try, as well as in support of principles, the violation
of which the whole Nation had
.now joined in repro-
bating. The character of his Noble Friend, and his
hereditary attachment to the liberties of the people,
were ample securities to him (Mr. Lambton) that in
pursuing the same track he would merit the consci-
entious approbation of every rational man. But espe-
cially he felt that he would be acting in disobedience
to the sense of his constituents, if be failed to lose,
any opportunity of vindicating the outraged consti-
tutional principles of the aviary: It was not neces-
sary to remind the House of the nature aad-origin of
the prOceedings in question. It now appeared, that'
with a full knowledge of the evidence against her
Majesty, and with a full sense also .of the political
eecessity for the prosecution against the Queen, and.
fully satisfied by one view of Majocehi, of the na-
ture it that evidence, tike Ministers agreed to a pro-
vi
sionior. her '*liijesty-44 the Noble Lasd opposite,
only five days after the appearance of Majorpchi

--..,

after coming from Pall-Mall, states' his wilthignefi'
to agree to a provision for her Majesty, In February
last, the Noble Lord, and the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer after him, pledged Ministers to consent to a
provision for her Majesty. But these professions, it
seemed, were only in appearance, and to be fulfilled
upon the condition only of her residence abroid.—
She was offered a revenue upon that Condition through
Lord Hutchinsen, by the very man who affected to
be so indignant at the disgrace which her conduct in-
flicted on the honour of his country. Such was the
suitable provision for her Majesty. They said that
the proceedings arose out of the necessity there was
for preserving the interests of morality, and for the
.maintenance of the dignity of the Crown. Now, let
the House mirk how consistently they acted upon
this sense.—They were in possession of infermation
that her Majesty was daily, by her conduct, lower'-,
ing the character of this country in the eyes of fo-
reign nations: yet what did they do ?—they endea-
voured to shut her out of the country—to keep off
the possibility of repentance—they endeavoured to
persuade her to return to Italy, call back her sup-
posed paramour, and continue to keep up that inter-
course, the existence of which was deemed sufficient
to render her unwdrthy to be associated with the
Monarch in the prayers of the People. Now was
not this the basest hypocrisy ? Had they believed
her Majesty to be guilty, they should not have en-
couraged the notion of compromise for an instant.
But her Majesty rejected the offer, and landed in
England amidst the acclamations of the people. No
one asked for this inquiry. There was only one feel-
ing of indignation for the conduct of her oppressors.
How then could, it be pretended that the dignity of
the throne was placed in jeopardy ?—the age of her
Majesty prevented any alarm as to the possibility of
a disputed succession; and, amidst all these conti-
derations, could it have escaped the attention of Mi-
nisters, that the inquiry must produce an interruption
of public tranquillity, and that no State expediency
could in any manner justify it, if by that word was
meant an anxiety for the true interests, the good or-
der, the peace, and happiitess of the Nation (!leer).
He did not mean to say, that no occasion could jus-
tify the introduction of a Bill of Pains and Penalties;
but nothing short of a paramount necessity, which
did not exist in this case, could authorise having re-
course to such a measure. Nothing, in short, but
motives of a vindictive nature could be traced as the
origin of these proceedings. When the Green Bag
was brought down, he rensesnbel ed. the Hon. Member
for Bramber saying, that though, when alluding to it,
there was a smile on his lips, yet that there was a
pang at his heart. But, although they professed to
be actuated by a sense of the dignity of the Throne,
and a zeal for the honour of the country, in bringing
this measure forward, yet, in fifteen days, they them-
selves agreed to a Resolution, pronouncing their own
proceeding to be derogatory from the honour of the
Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the Na-
tion. The anticipations of this Resolution expressing
this opinion, no one could deny were fully realised.
The Monarchy and the institutions of the country
were lowered; and, above all, that veil which policy
had thrown over Royalty, for the purpose of keeping'
'out of view the actions and motives of the Sovereir
that veil had been torn aside—(lkar, hear). 111;
records of past errors were revived, not one indivi-
dual of the Royal Family but Was made the subject
of some disgraceful print or satire, and if the doctrine
of recrimination had not been adopted, they owed it
rather to the forbearance of Counsel, than to any le-
gal obstacle against it.; and had the proceeding been
persevered in, he believed it would have ended in
civil dissention. He would ask any Gentleman on
the opposite side of the House, if lie did not use the
utmost caution in excluding from the view of his fa-
mily all Newspapers which contained any part of the
details of this proceeding ? The Hon. Member next
alluded to the evidence of the witnesses against her
Majesty, and said, that in his opinion it was defective
and rotten. He asked, why did not Ministers enter
into an examination of the characters of the witnesses
as eagetly, as they believed their tales? Why not
elamine those- respectable persons who might have
farnished them with some information that would
teach them to estimate the characters of those persons ?
Was it drat treachery was a passport to the confidence
of Ministers, and would they say that respectability
of character, rank, education, and virtue, were so
nrany disqualifications for their respect? The People
and he (Mr. Lambton) joined with them, saw in the
whole proceeding evident traces of a Conspiracy to
dethrone her*Majesty and degrade her. They saw
that the Cominission sought only Matter of accusa-
tion; without attending to the investigation of truth..
He should not be surprised to hear the Noble Lord
rest his defence on an appeal to the conduct of those
who were its power in 1806, with respect to the then
Princess of Wales. Upon this they would be rot:
bat that was not the questipn, for it was impossible
that one act of injustice could be warranted, because
another had been committed before. The refusal of
a list of witnesses—the keeping her Majesty in igno-
rance of the time and places of the charges—all these,
to use the Noble Lord's expression, formed strong
features in the case, and shewed, that when once a
system of wrong and injustice were begun, the course
must be persevered in, by heaping wrong upon wrong,
in order to preserve consistency. But the Ministers
were responsible for the prorogation, and for the fer-
ment which their preeeedings created. They were as
responsible for the impression which they allowed to
be made, that the abandonment of the Bill was dis-
approved of by his Majesty, as that itl introduction,
eras in obedience to his wishes—(Hear,
He held the measures of Ministers to be wholly un.;
just, subversive of the liberties of the subject, and cal.
cdtated to destroy public tranquillity. In his opi.
Ilion, he felt that he was borne out by the sense of
the majority of the People, expressed at their Meet.]
ings and in their Petitions. To these were opposed!
the Loyal Addresses, got up in holes and corners,,
and which, by the way, cautiously avoided any alma•
sions to the proceedings against her Majesty. After
this, he would leave it to the House to judge to which
tilde the greatest weight was due. With respect to
the motion before the House, perhaps, as a Reformer,
ire should wish that it were unsuccessful, in order
Still more effectually to exhibit the variance between
the opinibn and wishes of that House and those of
"the People. But when he remembered the degree of
disappointment and desperation which its failure
would produce in the country, he felt the strongest,
anxiety for its suceess-4.Hean.

• Mr. BATHURST admittel the manly manner 4
.
which the subject had been treated by the two 114
speakers. The object of the motion seemed to be,
Ist, the removal of Ministers; and secondly, a Re.
form in Parliament. But he was sorry to hear ale
Noble Lord declare, with his talents and connettiote,
that he would form no part of any Administratics;.
He was aware, that atter such repeated disco:tint,
nothing worthy of remark was to be expected. lk
(Mr. Bathurst) was called upon to enter on a very ,e_•
vidious task, Bat he would ask Geutlemen opposite
to place themselves for a moment in the situation i;
the responsible Ailvisers of the' Crown. He had
wish to compare the conduct of Government *4
that of a former Administration, as they both stop,)
on their own merits. If reports of g: eat tnicortaact
on the part of the Queen had reached the ears eirtiii
Advisers of the Crown, was It not prorer, previeoi
to inquiry, to institute some measure on the subjeri.i
That step had been taken, and the personi sete,tef
for the inquiry were men of the highest honour, 401-
who could have no motive to disguise or cuticula*.
truth. It would have been more satisfactory to ay
had the return been made, that there was nee
dation for the rumours. But the case had keen dij,
ferent ; and in similar circumstances, any indiyidui
would have been justified in Instituting proceeding,
in the case of his own wife. The Queen had hem
disposed to come into the country, and to denimd
all the rights of her rank ; in that case, it was an in:.
perious duty on the part of Government to preyei„
such a step; and with that view the offer of E,501;
had been made, to put a stop to the diicussiant
which must take place in the event of her
val ; and at one time there was no reason to be,
lieve that the terms would have been unacceptabi.
Under the impreSsion that prevailed among Aide
decent part of the community, it was not fitting that
she should have all the privileges that had been e,
joyed by other Queens Consort, and Ministers ha/
done all in their power to avoid the discussioastla
had subsequently taken place. That had been*
object of the Member for If mother, and not to pal
stop to fin titer inquiry, should the Queen refuel,
accede to the Address of the House. A motioshe
afterwards been made to put a stop to all procesll
logs, and had been negatived by a large. ni.njusltl,
In numerous cases, the publication of the otter%
had been attended with prejudicial effcc:s; but frogs
the nature of the case, that was ft equently unsaid.
able. When direct evidence could not be obtains(
it was necessary to have recourse to circumatinalli
and that might lead to details which every nest
man would wish could have been avoided. Eye?,
effort had been made by the Ministers of the Om'
.to avoid such disclosures. The Queen had demise
an equivalent, in point of honour, for the =hie
of her name in the Liturgy ; and that had heti
forded to her by the Address of the House. Ile
that been acceded to on the part of the Queens
the subsequent proceedings would have been pre
vented. As some proceedings must have takenplaa
it was obvious that the ordinary tribunals of Os
country were inadequate to the investigatioatai
a legislative proceeding must be had mama.
That must either have been an impeachmestet
Bill of Pains and Penalties, and" the latter auk&
to be the preferable mode. As the other Ilseehal
taken the matter up, it would have been incongram
in the House of Commons to have institued
proceedings. He freely admitted that Miuistenalni
were responsible for all that had taken place. Ity
Queen and her advisers had never regarded thee
sertion of her name in the Liturgy as a matter
right, as in the negotiation that had taken pbee
after the Queen's arrival in_ this country, it hi
been demanded as a matter of favour and bow.
The vote for the second reading of the hill in rte
Lords had pronounced on the guilt of the panic
but the charge now was, that, notwithstanding int
was called- the acquittal of the Queen, her nap lel
not been restored to the Liturgy ; but why ludic
been called for on the ground of an acquittal al
Court of Law, and not- on the ground of moral cot
viition of the innocence of the individual? On de
subject of the prorogation of Parliament, he
see why Ministers should be called on to state it
reasons of that measure, especially as the Hooka,
only continued its sittings in- the idea that the lii
Paint and Penalties would have come down.fieek
other House. The Crown had the means of cal
nuing the provision of £35,000 to the (been;
had been distinetlf understood, that no WO
would be entered upon, if the Bill of Pains AO
nalties should not come down. If the Hansa
of opinion that Ministers ..had no choice, and*
• they had rio private interests to gratify, they we'
express that opinion. But the servants oftheC
had intended to do their duty to the Crown and
and it was impossible that the House would
to pass that censure which it was the object of '
present motion to convey.=-(Hear, Hear}
Mr. WHITMORE thought that it was the
of every man to stand forward upon a question
so deeply affected the vital interests of the c
as that which was now before the Houte.-11.1
himself called upon to support the motion (4113
ble fiiend. He petfeetly concurred with ..larn! .
nothing but the greatest State necessity—
fact, but where the succession to the Crow's seat .
dangered, could justify such proceeding& I.3ra
never was pretended as such ; indeed, they sr!"
morality of the nation required it—theexamP:
by the Queen was dangerous.. But norhinvon:
more absurd than such a statement. Adnuttmg.r__
the charges of which the Queen had been aciel7l
had been proved to be true, still they were
in this country: they occurred in the middleue
Mediterranean. They might have been known
the higher circles of society, but they were
of amongst that class of the people in which
sterling worth of the nation exists—(Hearr hi
He was aware that it should be said the Qua"
thr
forced herself on the country, and compelled
to undertake the proceedings. He (Me.
*as of opinion that she had been forced DY,,,
to come to the country—(Lard cries4.ll6l6'
He contended that proceedings had been c
against her before her Majesty had cometotr
try—(Hear, hear). %V as it nothing tostr!keher;
out of the Liturgy ?—( Cheera.)—% as it n°4
give instructions to foreign Ministers not to
tr 7
nize her as Queen ?—( Loud caters.) —Stne.ll!tai
such circumstances, there was no tilternatte
4 her Majesty, but either to admit nee guilt
~
'charges of which she had been awned; "4

Wes mottos* piremuseneedt a&Mnsu beelfoe he
voki sap of t.againsther), outcome as she
tad done, boldly to face her accusers, and demand a
They all knew the universal distress that pre-
TTat ...that time, es there does at presents and that
cosiderable fernientation existed all through the
How that-fermentation bad been created,
itcSitto:i'd not now stop to inquire; but he would
was
that a. time to bring forward those mea-
-410„ to agitate and distract the country, and in-•
still furth'r the discontent' that had previ-
cliigially existed?* He was thoroughly persuaded there
i
rasa base faction in the country, who were labour-
obvert the COnstitution, and by every spe-
;„, to
Wel," contumely and abuse and caricatures, to de-
Ivy the Religion and defile the. morality of the na-
;o. and %VW that (he would boldly ask) a titne to .
1,..te the sluices of obscenity, and pollute the mo-
.;;;Is of the country ?—( Lond anal trpeated cheers.)
ge WA, glad to hear it admitted by the Right Hon.
6totleman who preceded him (Mr. Bathurst), that
taws case impeachment might be resorted to. He
tad understood that it was the opinion of high and
learned legal authorities, that it could not. But
although go lawyer, nor even pretending to legal
trodedge, or more than an ordinary share of com-
mon sense. he bad been of opinion that it could have
leen resorted to, instead of the objectionable pro-
ceeding—a Bill of Pains and Penalties. Far Justice
Blackstone distinctly lays it down, that any Peer of,
be realm may be proceeded against for any crime,
y impeachment. He mentioned this for the purpose
of asking on what grounds the case of the Queen was
to be taken out of the pale of the Constitution ? Was
it because the Queen was not considered a subject, or
because she was proceeded against by the State?—
Now it could not he disputed that there were prece-
dents that might be adduced in favour of Bills of
l'Ains and Penalties; but of that measure he thought
it was merehonoured in the breach than. in the ob-
iervance.“--(Hcor. hear).—ChielJustice Hale bad
raid it down,'that it was a course that might be pur-
sued, if required by some great necessity ; but that it
was ultimo( rentedimrs et pessiouon, and should never
be minted to while any other could be had—( fleas).
/beHonourahle Member then alluded to the case of
the Earl of Strafford. Those were times of violence
which he hoped would never recur. He trusted there
sever would again he such a trial in this country—
/Nor). But if there were anything like it, it was
disatoompt to separate the Aristocracy from the
Wy dfaihe People—( Loud cheers). Ile should have
viewed the conduct of Ministers with much more se-
tisfactien (if, indeed, he could view any part of their
conduct with satisfaction), had they granted to her
Idajesty a specification of ere places in which the
crimes alleged against her had been committed.—
This would have served the Queen's case most mate-
rially. They say they granted her a considerable
adrantage by:allowing her time to prepare for her
.defence; he contended, that suffering the case for the
prosecution to go forth to the world without any
comment, was actually prejudging the question—
(Hear, hear).--lie was sorry to hear the Right Hon.
Gentleman whin preceded him speak so lightly of the
People—(Hear, dreax)—calling their just Petitions
clamouis. He was quite convinced the great majo-
rity of the nation were opposed to these measures.
By attending to what took place at the different Pub-
lic Meetings throughout the kingdom, it would ap-
pear quite manifest, and he thought it was worth the
consideration of Mioisters to see whether the voice
of the nation were in -their favour or not. He was
quite aware that at these Meetings packing had been
resorted to; bye he had not beard of a single in-
stance where they were able to peck a majority—
Rear, hear).--He himself had been a loyal ad-
Jresser, until he had been aware of their object.
Under these circumstances, he was justified in stating,
that the great majority of the nation are decidedly
hostile to the present Administration, and to the
measures that had been ad .pted against her Majesty.
lie would ask, was it wise at the present day to
create a division in the country ? Could any man sit
down and coolly consider the state of the nation,
and say, that to create a division between the people
and the aristocracy was not a most unwise and pe-
llets measure? Could any man deny it who re-
flected on the state of the nation ? Look to the debt
alone. What was there now to pay it. when the.great
hews on which it was supported had been removed ?
It leas a measure that could not be anticipated with-
out the greatest apprehension. The artificial bases
on which it had rested had now been removed, and
where Were now the means to support it? It might
be said that this was foreign to the subject. But he
introduced it for the purpose of sheaving the neces-
sity of onion, of a complete amalgamation of in-
terests. We -must all coalesce, without which the
country cannot stand—(Loud cheers). Look to the
situation of that House. Considerable discredit
had been already thrown on it, and he feared that
before the present Session concludes, that discre-
dit would be increased—(hear, hear).--If he were
allowed to offer an opinion, he would say, be careful
that Tour hearts beat in unison with the pulsation of
the People— {Loud cheers). But let it not be a feint or
lathed, but a vigorous, a healthy, and natural pul-
sation—(Loud cheering). He contended that the
Queen was entitled to all her rights as fully as if no'
trial had taken place. Law, justice, and policy, de-
mended that the Queen should be restored to all her.
privileges. He would not trespass longer on their.
time--(Hear, hear). He had only to add, that any
sentiments which he had delivered did not proceed
horn party motives. Ile was unknown to either side
ref the House as a party man. Whatever he had said,
&wed from a thorough conviction of propriety, and
from a feeling that the Petitions and just demands of
generous People should be met with a spirit of con-
ciliation--(Load and continued cheersfollosvcd the de-
'ivery of the Honourale Gentlensan's speech).
Mr. BANKES complimented the .last speaker,
*6th upon the matter of -which a great part of his
Vetch was cum posed, and the manner in which it
was delivered. rpsc7ll% many of its-topics, it was im-
Possible not to agree with the sentiments so ably ex-
Pussed, and most particularly those which enforced
the, necessity of union between the different classes of
the community. It must be with a feeling of dis-
-14„ t• and almost with a degree of -shame, that the
Hasse a• •
and the count!), found themselves occupied
b 7 the subject of that debate, at a time when so much
lt*Puttant business remained Upon their hands, and
mural fur -their most serious consideration. There
vs" the *We s) stem of domestic poik ; the weight

of debt.the disastrous pressure_ uponmor most ma-,
terial sourcesofmationallprosperity, and most pad-
cularly upon the Agricultural Interests—the troubled
state of the South of Europe, and the alarming symp-
toms which it held out; when these things were pass,[
ing within and without the country, it was with dis-
gust and shame that the House must find itself occu-
pied by the discussion then before it. But when they
were at last, as he trusted, coming to some definitive
conclusion upon the question, he must, in a few mo-
ments, state his reasons for the vote which he intended
to give. The Honourable Members who. had moved
and seconded the Resolution, had fairly avowed their
purpose to be an accusation against his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, not merely brought forward.as a theoretical
subject, but as a practical and substantial motion,
which, if carried, could lead to no other result than
their dismissal from his Majesty's service—(icar).
With regard to this point, he did protest that, after
the best consideration he had been able to give to
the subject, and not being satisfied with the transac-
tion as it stood—(lkar, .hear)—tieing contented nei-
dier with the beginning, the eontinnation, nor the
end of that transaction- -I flearl—he must yet, in jus-
tice to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, declare, that he
thought it extremely difficult for anybody to say
what would have been the wiser course to pursue.—
It appeared to him (Mr. Bankes), that Ministers did
all in their power to avert the evil of her Majesty's
[coming to this country. And he wool] ask the House
if the greatest evils had not been the consequence of
her coming to it ?—(Hear.)—The Hon. and Learned
,Gentleman to whOm he had before alluded was COM.
insissioned to make the proposition, and was said to
;have it in writing. But they were told that this Com-
missioner, when he met het Majesty coming to Eng-
land, that this Ambassador never delivered his cre-
dentials—( Cheers ).—Upon a subsequent occasion in
that House, he knew not for what reason (whether
it might be that something pressing upon the Hon.
and Learned Geutleman's mind prevented him) hut,
for some reason or other, he then said that he could
not explain his conduct then, but should have an op..
'portunity of doing so hereaf,ei. If he (Mr. Bankes)
might take the liberty of putting him in mind of that
declaration, perhaps the moment was now come when
that oppportunity wise afforded—(Loud cheering).—
And more particularly if, as he had understood, the
Hon. and Learned. Gentleman had not presented the
written proposition which bad been placed in his
hands, but called upon his Noble companion, upon
that ocea.ion, to make a communication to her Ma-
jesty not reduced to writing, and consequently less
authentic. In compliance with the directions of a
large majority of that House, he (Mr. Bankes), in
'conjunction with two Hon. Friends of his, had after-
; wards submittee certain arrangements to her Majesty,
r which had been as unexpectedly rejected as those
previously made by Ministers. Under all the circurn-1
stances of the case, there appeared ample reason to
conclude that hi: Majesty's Ministers, in making that
[ proposition, acted under the presumption that they
'were following the c urse most congenial to her
Majesty's wishes. If blame was to be attached, he
believed that it must be divided, and he was not sure
that Ministers deserved to bear a part. " In the pre-
sent state of parties, it is perfectly plain to every one,"
(said the Hon. Baronet, pointing to the two sides of
the House), " that if you exclude that parts, you
raise this." If the present Ministers went out, those
who sat on his side (the Opposition) must form their!
successors ; and he was willing to do every justice to
the talents of the Hon. Gentlemen, which he consi- '
dered as perfectly competent to conduct the affairs
of the State. One of those Gentlemen (Mr. Tierney)
had candidly and honestly expressed himself a can-
didate for power. And he (Mr. Bankes) wished that
every public man would act as openly as lie had done
in that respect. It was a sentiment highly honourable,
for he was not one of those who encouraged the viler
slanders which were attached to Placemen upon all
occasions. He would now advert to what fell from
the last speaker, with respect to the desperate fac-'
tion which existed in this country, but which he
hoped had not extended itself far into that House.—
He must say, however, that the Honourable Gentle-
man of whom he had been speaking, I.ad of late
given that faction too much countenance. He did
not believe that any principle of union existed between
them ; but there WAS an evident system of co-oera-
tion which had been to him the cause of much alarm
—(Cheering, and a laugh from the Opposition).—A
Noble Lord whom he saw (Lord Folkstone), seemed
to make it a matter of merriment, but in his (Mr.
Bankes's) opinion, it was not'so for the country. He
could not suppose that if Honourable Gentlemen
came triumphantly into power, they would forfeit
the pledges which they had given, even to men so
dangerous. They must keep their faith; and that
circumstance gave him great apprehensions for the
measures which they would introduce. lii the two
last months of the late lamented Sovereign's reign,
two very important Bills were passed—one for Pre-
venting Seditious Meetings, and the other for re-
straining the Liberty of the Press. The Honourable
Gentlemen opposed those Bills as being unconstitu-
tional, and not rendered necessary by the state of the
country. They were for allowing the Press to sevel
in its utmost excess; and with them banishment for
the second offence of libel was not to be endured.
His opinion was so entirely different upon those sub-
jects, that theirs had created in his mind the greatest
alarm for the safety of the country. " What they
call liberty," said the Honourable Member, " I
call licentiousness; because I think that at this mo-
ment the greatest dangers which can assail a free
country, are to be seen in the daily poisons which ate
circulated and disseminated throughout the nation."
Any Gentleman coming into .offiee, botuid .to the
repeal of those Bills, never must expect to meet with
his support. The party now in Opposition, must
also come into power pledged to a Reform in .Parlia-
ment. Not to that gradually progressive Reform
sthkh would make a blot here and a blot there as
circumstances would warrant, hut to some system
which was to supersede at once the present mode of
administering the Constitution. He did not accuse
'the party of entertaining those wild doctrines of uni-
versal suffrage, and other visionary delusions, which
were employed to deceive the People; but they.staod
pledged to some sweeping, and what the factioUs
called eiheient; measures of Reform. He could nor,
therefore, see them come in under such auspices,
without entertaining most serious and unqualified
apprebeasion-(/har, IStrar)i—Upen the question of
Catholik Emanripation-hesalati pleferred.the.preeent

Ministry.; because.the granting of those claims must
necessarily be the consequence of a change—(f;lent.).
He was. aware that some of the present Ministers
were in favour of such a measure, but then othe:s
were hostile to it, and while the Cabinet was.divided,l
the question would be kept off. Without intending'
to peas an unqualified panegyric on Ministers, he
would say that, for a series of years, they had car-
ried on the government by measures that had gene-
rally demanded his support. But it was said on the
other side, that them must be a complete change in
the system of government. Now, he did not know
whatabat. meant—(Hear, hear). He had never heard
it. explained—(hear, hear). With repett to the
last. French war, the. Opposition side had denied its
policy. and looked with despondency at the re•
sources of the country. Under the management of
the present Ministers, the most glorious war had been
put an end to by the most glorious peace that had ever
been made within the last four centuries. Under all
the circumstances which presented themselves to his
mind, it was impossible that he could form any de-
termination but that of opposing the motion.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, in consequence
of what had fallen from the last speaker;_ but did
not intend to examine into his consistency or impar-
tiality for the last forty years. Neither should be
inquire into the panegyric which he had passed upon
one party, (and which must have been peculiarly
grateful to the Noble Lord, who had been sn entirely
unused to it of late) while censure bad flowed so
Ithundantly upon the other from that impartial Gen-
tleman—(A laugh). With respect to the French war,
notwithstanding the party with whom he 'had• the
honour to act had originally opposed it, yet they
had not afterwards refused the supplies necessary for
carrying it on. They had not then opened just cause
for reprehension, as had been done on a former oc-
casion by the party opposite. As to the glorious
Peace of which the Honourable Member had spoken,
he was not willing to allow that it was entirely
owing to the Noble Lord. For the glorious peace
we were indebted to our gallant Captains, and the
I high valour and achievements of the Britidi Army.
The effects of that glorious peace were to be found
in the present state of Europe. He would make no
ether observation upon the glorious peace and the
glorious alliance, its offspring, but that the Noble
Lord himself had been obliged to disavow the acts
and principles of his Allies. He had been obliged
to say, that such was the nature of their principles
as to teed to the destruction of all national inde-
pendence. He hoped that what had been said in the
declaration of the Noble Lord would intimidate them
from proceeding in their present course. Out of the
mouth of one of their own Allies they had been con-
demned, and their principles 'denied. These were the
effects of that glorious peace which had been so
panegyrized by the impartial Member—(Cheers).—
Having laid down the basis of his impartiality, he
proceeded t o give a proof of it, by stating it to be
his opinion that one party only could form the Go-
vernment of the country. That Hon. Member said
that his (Sir James Mackintosh's) friends would be
obliged to redeem their pledges. What were they ?
First of all, they had attended Public Meetings of
the People of England. When had this been charged
against Members of Parliament as being entitled to
condemnation ? Was it criminal to mix with the
People, to ascertain their opinions, and to endeavour
to reclaim them, if they bad been misled? If so, it
meant that the majority of the House of Commons
had declared war against the People of England
(Loud cries of " Order!' toith.vehement cheering on
the Opposition benches).
Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to order. He wished
to have the opinion of the Chair, whether, in the
most extended exercise of the liberty of expression,
it was in order with the rules of' Parliament for a
Member to say that the majority of the House of
Commons hid declared war against the People of
England—(Loud cheering from both sides).
The SPEAKER said, there could be only one opi-
nion, in the House as to the nature of the words which
had been spoken. They were highly disorderly.
He had confidently expected the Hon. Member to
'explain the words, which were most disorderly.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH contended, that the
conduct of a majority of the House had often been
opposed to the interests of the People; but there had,
' at the same time, been many Members active and vigi-
lant in their behalf. He complained of the interrup-
tion of the Noble Lord, when he was about to explain
on the subject of Public Meetings. He believed the
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. &takes) had a seat in
the House during the American war: in that case, he
must remember that Public Meetings had been at-
tended and countenanced by the most eminent men'
of that day, such as Sir George. Saville and the Mar-
quis of Buckingham. The Bills alluded to by the
Hon. Gentleman had been quite inefficient; and
the .consequence had been, that Public Meetings had
been more numerous since they had passed than be-
fore. They had exasperated, but not restrained the
People, and only. served to alienate them from their
Rulers. The Press had been more licentious than at
any former period, and more treason and blasphemy
had been poured upon the Public. The only Reform
that the .Honourable Gentleman could tolerate was
an inefficient one, and he thus had furnished a strong
argument to the enemies of all moderate Reform: in
fact, every kind of Reform filled the Hon. Gentle.
man with horror, though he did not know whether
it was .of .a Weal or a general nature!—(Laughter.)
With respect to the subject immediately before the
'jjouse, Ministers,
.by their treatment of the Queen,
had heen guilty of a high crime and Misdemeanour.
Ministers had instituted an inquiry into the conduct
of .the Queen, and the result would be most fatal,
shook' that House not re-echo the voice of the Pub-
lic. For the conduct of Ministers not a shadowsof
reason was assigned ; for there had been no public
necessity, however there might have been a Ministe-
rial one. If, as the Hon. Member argued, only one
;et of men were fit to govern the country, then there
,
.eouoso be no ohange, and the argument would apply,
equally to the present, and all future Ministers. It
'would, indeed, •immortalize the Hun. Gentleman.—
The. evils complained .of, even by the Noble Lord,
and the .Hon. Gentleman, had been
.only got into
under the plea of necessity ' • but almost every man
in the country. now considered it as not forming any
thhoglike paramount necessity. Ministers had either I
to prosecute or not to prosecute. There was no pa-
ramennot necessity. in this ease. The political' advisees
of the: Crown should, have haqwra whether they had a

prnhable case which they thought they could maker:mt.
That would have been their duty in cases of politica
libels; but on this subject they were bound to have
known alt the weakness and infirmity of their wit•
tresses, and aho the temper and spi. it of tl•e public
mind at the time they instituted thi.t prosecution.—
pisgrace was cast uion Cie Crown, upkar that Houle,
and upon the Country, only to screen those Ministers
who had brought that disgrace on everyt? ing sacred
is the institutions of the count: y. Tarte was no
such disgraceful case of Pains and Pe:lalties since
that of Sir J. Fens. ick—a case which must ever be
an exception to the law of the land. Mho gave op-
portunity to the Addressers to trench upon the law
ef.their country, but the prosecutors of the Queen?
This fatal error would have never been found to
have a supporter, but in the Honourable Member
for Corte Castle—the impartial suppot ter of an eme-
lt/sting Administration! The Ministers had made
the Monarchy the object of public derision and ridi-
ctile. They had exposed the private disputes be-
tweliu the King and Queen ; and had, by the fatal
share they had taken in them. brought the country
:to the brink of a destructive civil war—(Heer, hear).
—lle assared the House, that in all he bad said, his
:words flowed more in sorrow than in anger. He.
'feared that they were doomed to pass the remainder
of their days in trouble and disquiet; but of all the
evils the greatest would be a breach between that
House and the People, which, he dreaded, would
be widened by the division this night. For, however.
a majority of that House might decide, the People
bad decided on the censure of ,Ministers by a majority
of twenty to one—( Cries of" Hear, hear!" and." No,
no !" from the Ministerial side).—The confidence ex-
pressed by these cheers was what filled him with
alarm. He wished for a glorious. peace, and a happy
alliance between the House. and the People; and
then they might krave the state of Europe occasioned
by the glorious peace and happy alliances of Ministers!
If Gentlemen, however, decided in favour of Ministers,
whose characters their own friends allowed were in.
kited by the proceedings against the Queen, and who
had clung to place after they had lost power, all be
could say was, But he had discharged his duty, and
must leave the consequences to futurity (Wear, hear).
Mr. PEEL (after some confusion respecting the
Member who had caught the eye of the Speaker) be-.
gan by making an apology for rising after a speaker
of so much experience, but the nature of the debate
relieved him from the necessity of following the
course of the Honourable Gentleman. Having been
absent on all occasions when he could have had an
opportunity of delivering his sentiments on this toes/.
tion, and holding the same opinion with the majo-
rity on a former evening, whose decision had been.
spoken of in such severe terms by the Honourable
Gentleman, he was anxious to state the grounds on
which he would have concurred in voting with those
who had, in the heat of debate, been designated as
having declared war against the People. The expres.
sion had, it was true, been afterwards qualified, and
he rejoiced that it had been explained in a way con,
sistent with the sense of Parliament. He had a pain-
ful duty to perform ; but he was there to express his
honest and independent opinipn, and this he would
do, regardless of any impression but that on his own
mind, and without party or personal feelings, on the
principle of impartial justice. In setting out, he
would observe, that he was one who did not concur
with. Government in the measure of omitting the
Queen's name in the Liturgy, and on these grounds,
that there was no inconsistency in continuing it, and
at the same time coming boldly forward with the
charges which were to be made against her—( /leer).
But neither could he have agreed to the motion of
the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton), because it took bold
of only an insulated solitary peint, and had little or
no bearing on the main question ; because it was ill-
timed; as, if made at all, it ought to have been made
last Session; it ought to have been made on the 29th
of January, last year, when the order was issued, and
not kept till the 26th of January in this.—Why this
delay ? And also, because it would have been an act
of injustice to visit that act as a crime in Ministers
after the same Parliament had distinctly sanctioned
it. He would have voted against the motion too,.
beause it was calculated to redress no wrong ; be-
cause it was merely adverse to Government, but no
way in favour of the Queen. It was hinted indeed
that other resolutions were to follow, but he said,
" let us have direct proceedings, and do not make
so important a motion a mere corollary to another
which can hardly be understood." On these grounds
he would have voted with the majority in the case
alluded to. He must, however, speak in other
terms of the present motion, brought forward by
• pother Noble Lord. The manly feeling and straight
forward manner in which it was framed and brought
before the House, merited every praise. The speeches
of the Noble Mover and Seoonder plainly avowed
their object to be the removal of Government, and
an entire change in the Administration. This had
been coupled with mine anticipations of a consequent
Reform. He cared not whether it would produce *.
form or not. If he thought the. Government justly
chargeable with the vindictive spirit attributed to it by
the Noble Lord, or with the corrupt love of office as-
serted by the Hon. Gentleman, he would not look be-
yond either for his vote. He would rathewrlse follow,e
rlia-
seelo
mtheanntahrey Catholic‘Rvnenfoldrmthoprpnrta Government
Emancipation
ence would be a stain upon all Goverrunent—(Heer).
He would found his vote on the view of their whole
conduct, and examine if it was such as to call for the
present grave interposition of the House. lf, upon
the whole, he approved of their motives and of their
proceedings, though be might differ on points of
minor importance, he would.meet the motion with a
direct negative. And he put it to Gentlemen oppo-
site, if it would beiair, now when they saw how all
the currents had set, and how events had run, to ferns
theft better judgment on experience? No; they must,
in justice, place themselves in the situation of Minis-
ters, and_must look at things as when the past was the
future, and what was now clear, buried in obscurity.
lie had already avowed, that he differed from Ali-
nisters on the subject of the omission of her•Majetty's
name from the Liturgy ; he had also heard with re-
gret a Right Honourable Gentleman withhold thorn
her the title of. Queen; and he had further lamented
for the answer to her request respecting a ship t.f
war. :Such matters, though they could have to
weight with men of enlighteued minds, were calcu-
lated.to make angimpression on the great body of ass
Peoßltl-413foreves slight eley were, the Public formed