Star.
London, England, 1816-02-14 00:00:00

0.

the business, appeined to Wend to put 14 millions into
circulation, as d to throw It eeillions out of circulation
o-The Right Honourable Geetleman had stated the
establishment at 29 pilgrim, bat deducting the four
millions for the lasi India Company. and other
liens, which were not permanent, (Mr. Tierney)
brought it down to 20 millions ; and what it was so
low, he would ask whether it was not a most alarm-
ing sum to the country ? But then it had been said,
that the part which Ireland had to contribute should
be substracted. " Where, he would ask, was Ireland
to prOcure that sum ? In what state was that coon-
try that she should contribute( so largely ? He knew
that Ireland could not furnish it ; and instead of our
expecting relief from that country, we should be ob-
liged to lend her our assistance. He should have
thought that the proper mode of 'conducting the busi-
ness, ho might .be speaking vulgarly, would have
been to have stated the Ways and Means first, and
then proceeded to the Supply, and not to have hur-
ried to the Supply as if we were engaged in an ardi.
ous contest. It was best to consider what the income
was, before the country entered upon the establish-
ment. The Honourable Member then recommended
the strictest economy as the only means of saving
the country. The ' Right Honourable Gentleman
had stated the revenue of the country is one instance
to have been in a flourishing condition ; but if be
would examine it from July 1814 Ito July, 1815,
he would find it to have decreased. considerably....
As to the Wars. and Means, there appeared, from
a calculation he had. •autde, only eleven millions, in.
eluding the War Taxes, Excise, Customs, &c. with
two millions and a half; the surplus of the Consoli-
dated Fund. to meet the eighteen millions, and if
Ireland could not contribute her share, the twenty
millions ot supply. There were several war duties
which he did not think Ministers would profit from
in time of peace. Who in time of peace would think
of paying 95 per cent. for teas ? The Spirits and
Malt Duties, would he believed, be greatly evaded,
unless Government fitted out a great number of small
,vessels for their collection. Of belts and knapsacks,
the Right Hon. Gentleman had takes care to require•
abundance, to keep the Leather Tu productive ;'but
if many taxes were increased, he knew also that
many had suffered art alarming decrease. He should
recommend to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to
have a Committee to Consider of the state of the
country. He should say again, that if ever there
was one time when a call of the House was more
necessary than at another, it was now, when it
was net known whether the Ways and Means
would .be adequate to the Supply, and when the
countr in a situation of unexampled distress......
WAS inst such a load of taxation and such an
establi cot, there was no need of apprehension ?
Should no one raise his voice against them ? Yes, he
would raise his voice against them. • He would now
sound the alarm. He hoped and was sure that he
would be followed by many Members of that House.
But be Ohl not think that it was from the exertions
within the walls of that House, there was any benefit
to be expected. No, it was from the expression of
the general feeling outside—(Hear, hear.) He would
call on all the people of the country to send in peti.
tion on petition against the ruinous measures of Mi.
nisters ; for unless be was assisted from out of doors,
he expected very little effect from any efforts of his
within them (Hear, hear.) Unless the people all
with one voice cried out against the present system,
he should almost say, it vas mercy in- his Majesty's
Ministers give them but a 5 per cent. Property
Tax instead of a ten per cent. one. To be sure, we
were deter:Mined to live in peace with all men. We
were determined to have a long and lasting peace, and
it may therefore be naturally expected, that we would
not keep up enormous military establishments. But
unless the voice ot the country was expressed against
them, Ministers might say, that all the Continental
Powers were keeping up large military establish.
menu ; and that this country should do as they did.
But were Ministers sincere in their declarations of the
expectation of a lasting peace ? If they were, why
not produce the Treaty of January last I Why not
chew that there was no ground of apprehension, that
their expectation was not too sanguine ? But if it was
nor, if it was as well founded as the Noble Lord re-
presented, WAS it not an insult on the House to call
on it for a vote of one hundred and-fifty thousand
solders ? He hoped the country would cry out
against such a system, and cry out with such a voice
as to be heard.—((Load cries of Hear, hear.)
Lord CASTLEREAGH did not complain that
the Right Hon. Gentleman should enter into an in-
vestigation on the topics he hid alluded to in his
speech. He only thought that this was not the best
occasion of entering on the investigation. There
would be another opportunity of discussing all the
points at large. He should therefore at present make
only a few remarks :—not from the difficulty of fol.
lowing the Right Hon. Gentleman, and answering
him on all the points he nad assailed, but because a
mere proper opportunity of a full discussion of the
subject would shortly occur. He should first remark
on the Right Hon. Gentleman's views of the financial
state of the -country—a subject on which the Right
Hon. Gentleman was generally allowed, and without
meaning to flatter, he believed justly, 40 have as per-
spicuous a view as any man in the country. Yet he
did not think that the Right Hon. Gentleman did his
knowledge on this subject justice by his statements
aed arguments. In those statements and arguments
the Right Hon. Gentleman, his was sure, did great
injustice to his own abilities. In the latter part of
his speech he painted the situation of the financial
state of the country in such gloomy colours, as, if
believed, would render it impossible to raise a Loan,
whatever the necessity should be.
Here Mr. TJUNiII explained, that be never meant
any such thing. • •
.Lord CASTLEREAGH continued. His Right
Honourable Friend's (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) plan was laid down with the utmost perspicuity
and fairness, and did not deny any difficulty of the
circumstances of the times. But the Right 110200.'
able Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) seemed to think, that
because,there were ten or twelve millions of the loud
of last year not bought up by the country in the lands,
the system could not go on. Wakit, however, be-
causelen or twelve millions remained unpaid, that'
therefore the system of tendon was to be broken up?
Was it an argument why public confidence should not
be kept up ? What was the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman's reasoning towards the latter part of his
speech He thought the Ways auk Means were Fat

-- . '

at productive as his Right Tionistrable Friend (the
\-Chancellor of the Exchequer) had represented them.
But the same gloom had hung over the
Right Hon.
Gentleman and his friends. with little intermission,
for the last fifteen years. However, he (Lord Cas-
tlereagii) thought there was as little occasion for the
ague with which the Right Hon. Gentleman's mind
was shaken at present, as there had been on former
occasions. The statement of last night should have re-
lieved it, if relief was palatable. If there were heavy
demands at present, and temporary distresses,
there would always be occasional resources offer-
ing to newer them ; nor had he any doubt, that.
resources would occur sufficient to reduce the inte-
rest of the eves and fours per cent. to a lower rate of
interest than they were yet at. Was it now, there-
fore, sstrewwe had done all—when we had attained
all the great and glorious results which we had been
so long_eontending for—(Hear, hear; from both sielsel
of the Hasa)—Was it now that we were to give way
to despair, after having arrived at the long wished.
for goal t No ; let not the country be discouraged.
There were resources enough to ride out many hard
gales—many severe storms. How much more then
could any little difficulties be overcome, that occurred
in the settling calm I But the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) argued that the Property
Tax should not be continued on account of those dif-
ficulties. Now those difficulties were the strongest
argument why that tax should be continued, and his
own argument was the best answer to itself. It was
not in moments of difficulty that the greatest rebel-
don of taxation could take place. Indeed the Right
Honourable Gentleman did not meet the question
in the fair and manly manner in which the Ho.
nourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brlughans)
did last night. To be sure the Property Tax, con-
sidered abstractedly, was an evil ; so was all taxation,
considered merely in itself, not relatively to any
thing else. But the question was, whether there
could be devised any other tax which would pro-
duce seven millions with equally few inconveniences,
or, whether the exigencies of the State required
the sum that was to be produced by this tax
fie would be prepared to answer on those points, and
to give full satisfaction on them, when the proper oc-
casion came. 'He had to congratulate the House,
that there bad been a considerable advance already
made in the developement of the exigencies and means
of the country. The Right Hon. Gentleman thought
that a peace establishment of twenty millions was
ruinous, and was the sure forerunner of a Military
Government. He seer...d to think that there was
something new in the policy adopted. But if he
thoiight that his Majesty's Ministers had any intention
of vying with the Continental Governments as *Mi-
litary Power, he was much mistaken. No iuch thing
lever entered into their contemplation. This country
would always look to her naval power as her most
solid security ; and such bad ever been the view of
his Majesty's Ministers. The Right Hon. G. ntl
'man asked, if this peace was so full of security, so
likay to be permanent, why was such a military
establishment neceuaty ? The peace, certainly, was
as auspicious as any that bad ever bra made, and
gave a fair promise of permanence. Yet he could not
have such confidence in any peace--liras, hear—
as to recommend that the cowry should be left en-
tirely naked. He repeated, that till be saw in the
States of the Continent the civil power paramount to
the military; till he saw the military spirit, which the
boundless ambition and daring views of the despot
(rpm whom this had been lately rescued, till he saw
this spirit subside he could not recommend to this
country to live perfectly unarmed and in supine con-
fidence in the midst of camps and armies, and sur-
rounded on all sides by military array. Did the
Right Hon. Gentleman recollect what was the mili-
tary establishment of the country aftir the peace of
Amiens, when he was himself connected with the
Government ? He thought that thb entire Constitu-
tion was now on the point pf being subverted, be-
cause there was a force of fifty thousand men to be
kept up in England and Ireland. But after the peace
of Amiens, there was a military force of twenty-three
thousand for Ireland, and of forty-seven thousand for
England ; ae that instead of 50,000 to be "kept up
now, there was then 70,000. The Right Hon.
Gentleman wished for a call of the House.—
, He (Lord Castlereagh) was sure that he was willing
to give every subject the utmost possible deliberation.
IHe was petfectly anxious for a call of the House,
and by no means would oppose the Hon. Gentleman
in a motion for that purpose, provided he did not put
off the call for too hue a period. He was as desirous
as the Right Hon. Gentleman could be for a full
assembly to consider on the present important sub-
, jects for deliberation ; but he could not help saying,
that it. was when the Right 'Hon. Gertleman was
most destitute of argument he•was always most vio
lent in declamation. It was peculiarly a custom with
him, when he could find no soli() grounds of argu-
ment to address himself to the potpie, and to try to
filly them around him. But lie hoped the good
sense of the people of England would lend such an
ear to his harangues as they deserved. Yes, the
people with that persevering good sense with which
they had so nobly borne their burthens and distresses
during such a course of trial, would bear some diffi•
culties a little longer, rather than put. to risk those
important advantages "which they had so gloriously
acquired, and would loirk with confidence to that

Government which had led them through the storm.
They may be sure that that Government was more
anxious to give them every relief, in the sphere oil
possibility, than they were to receive it (Hair, hear.)
As to the army, he thought no one would disagree
with him, when he asserted that its patronage was at
present managed by the illusttious personage at its
bead with as little view to party as it ever was at
any former period. He way sure that Gentlemen at
the other side of the House were as much in the prac-
tice of recommend:ng to that illustrious personage,
and of being attended to. as those on his side. He
allowed that the 'army was the great branch on which
the whole question rests. There was no other, in the
•present circumstances of the country, so important;
but heves sake that there could be no argument
raised on the present itate of its patronage. He
would not at present enter inns the considerations why
a "articular portion of the army should be seat to one
place rather than to another; but he was prepared to
skew that the entire force required was necessary...-.
When tbe Right H on. Gentletnan compares the present
' period to that of 1792 or 1102, be ought to dwell on
ipoints that bad no affinity. On what branch would

'the Rigbt Hontourible Gentleman
more than
rvenhisbyplh4ins ooiif nre!tautcemtioenn He could
thoutand men from the army.' whit
II
duction signify ? He (Lord Castlefeig
able to :hew diat the entire force Was
rity
would say that, in the present state force of 3,000 men wan nht reguisue f(4
try, of that an equal force was too
country ? • The Noble Lord concluded I
his confidence in the good sense of Ile
the priple would nut be hurried by sip
however violent, to any. expression a
but would wait, with their Accustomed
result of the deliberations of, their avr
Parliament.

Mr. C. W. WYNNE would ask the
how he could compare the eirctunstano
sent times to those of the peace of At
there any point analozous between theta
Lord CASTLEREAGH sail there
more men kept up at that time than at
Mr. W YNNE continued. He said, t
Lord thought it inconsistent in his It igh
Friend (Mr. Tierney) to object to titty
now, as there were 'twenty thousand keF
peace of Amiens. But the state of Fra
different then from what it is now. I
that time in possession of Holland, of th
tries, of Italy, and of a great part of (
vast aratios. and was headed by B. it'd
now stripped of all those. We might
up a large array at that time, th.iugli
occasion far it now. It was not of th
nagement of the patronage of the a
plainer! ; but he was jealous of a stun
He acknowledged the merit of the put
Aler in Chief ; but a standing army,
hands, was not congenial with the Cons
liberties of the country.
The different Resolutions were the
agreed to.
Mr. HORNER moved for a copy
ment with the Allied Powers respects
proportion of the army of observation
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH askc
pecuniary indemnity given by Fiance
the Crown I

The CHANCELLOR of the E)
was not prepared to answer.
Mr. WYNNE wished to know how
received had been disposed of ?
The CHANCELLOR of the MI
said, that between four and five bun,
pounds of it had been given to the alm
mainder had been applied to the Como
Mr. WYNNE said, that this Houst
its controul, and that no sums should
propriated without previously consukir
Mr. BROUGHAM asked, was
droit of the Crown

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, th
was merely a trustee, not only tor the
country, but for the armies of the
Powers.

Mr. BARING put cff his motion
transactions of Ceylon to a future day.

BANK.

Mr. GRENFELL said, that he hie
given notice, that Ise would at an tarly
Session subalit to the House a motion
of the Bank. He had during the rece
subject peculiarly his study, and the n
mined it the more be was confirmed
nion, that the profits of the Bank were
and itjurious to the country. He v
a measure that would secure to the I
hundred thousands of pounds yearly t
any injustice to the Bank. He should
Bank always thriving, always pros?
the richest mercantile concern in this
commercial country. But there was
the country as sell as to the Bank.
vide this subject into two parts. The
the deposit of the public money with thr
to the public was totally unproduettv
Bank yielding au immense revenue.
part of the subject was the charge of
the management of the National Debt
not dwell much on those charges of
42,438 per annum for house expenses, a
three and four thousand pounds fora
The immense increase of profits arisini
creased circulation of its paper ought
with the country. At one period its c
SI millions 300. thousand. pounds. La
betwten 27 and 28 millions. In 17
Bank restriction first tank place, it wi
and 12 millions. There was an increa
year of 16 millions of circulation. By
an increase of profits to the Bank of
The Public were entitled to a partied
which the Bank enjoyed for the last i
In fire year 1800 Mr. Pitt thought th
were entitled to some participation in the
out of the issues of paper. The stal
Bank was then £2,500,000 ; but that
at direct variance with the papers he he
By these papers it appeared tn be 83
Pitt got au advance of three millont
without interest. This was recognizio
of participation of profits by the publ
nourable Member here alluded to A Col
had been appointed some years ago i
the situation of the Bank of Englat
alter a minute investigation, ascerse
Bank derived a profit of no less than JO
at that time, from the money lying i
It was in consideration of these profit
made, that they so often advanced
Government; and yet no acknowk
be obtained trom the Bank that the
balances of money, or had made I
The situation of the Bank, then,. wee
that they now held balances in their hi
to tLe public amounting to eight miller
and they advanced to the public a la
lions; the profits they now derived I
lances exceeded af/420,000 annually.
know on what ground or pretensions t
derive these vast advantages. For the
tbey had made a profit of four million
ought to have accrued to the pelii
then was nothing more than a con
money—making transaction ; and hi
service had the Bank rendered the sou