Star.
London, England, 1827-03-07 00:00:00

Ireland and England from destruction. The remedy
for all was the admission of the Catholics to a just
share of the British Constitution ; and this remedy

had better come is time, ere its .densandants, in•
stead of being the prop and support of Great Britain
in her continental wars and trantactions, should become

her worst enemy, and greatest weakness.
Mr. Secretary PEEL, then rose, but the opening of
his speech was frequently inaudible. He spoke of the
painful nature of the duty he was called upon to per-
form, in reference to the necessity under which it placed
him, in differing in this only instance from his col-
leagues. But as long as he remained unconvinced of
the error of his opinions, be would stand up and main-
tain them ; he would not shrink from that deity, though
it separated him from his colleagues, and from the
majorities of the House. He had hoped to be relieved
from the necessity of referring to any thing of
a personal nature to himself ; and the only point
upon which be should • feel called upon to do so,
was that which related to the Treaty of Limerick.
When this question, was before the House in the year
1825, be bad said that if he could be satisfied that
any privileges were withholden from the Roman Ca-
tholics, for which, by the Treaty of Limerick, they had
given any valuable consideration, his judgment would
be materially influenced by the proof of such a fact.
But having looked with the greatest attention at this
part of the subject, be was bound to say that he was
not satisfied of the truth of that assertion, but en the
contrary was more and more convinced thatreliet from
political disabilities, was not contemplated • by the
Treaty of Limerick. The terms of the article upon
which so much stress had been laid were, that the
IRoman Catholics should be guaranteed in their tell
gious privilege., and in she exercise of their religious
worship without disturbance. This was argued to ex-
tend to political privileges; but he asserted that all
the swifters of the age, Lord Clarendon among the rest,
defined the terms as being limited to the privileges con-
' netted with the profession and practice of the Roman
Catholic religion. Besides this, he had the words of
King William himself, one of the parties to the Treaty,
written whhin a month after the capitulation. In a
letter then written by King William, he declared his
willingness that they should be protected in the undis-
turbed exercise of their religion, but that he 'would not
consent to their enjoying political privileges. The con-
duct of the Legislature, at the same period, put the
question at rest. The capitilation of Limerick took
place on the Sd of October, 1691, and the•Pwliawient
met on the 22d of October following. In that ?arils-
, meat an Act was passed for applying the oaths of su-
premacy and allegiance to Roman Catholics, without
any question being started as to the Treaty of
Limerick. There were discussions upon it, conferences
look place between the two Houses, stipulations were
inade, but it was Dever once contended that the Act
interfered with the Treaty of Limerick. On'rebraary
24, the following year, the ratification of the Treaty
was executed, after the Act had passed, excluding
Catholics from Parliament and offices of trust and
power. If he had been guilty of that baseness which
the supporters of this measure now desired to 6s upon
him, would that Monarch• bay. resorted 10 such a
solemn mockery ? He was now defending the Whip
of those dals; and what said the Whig historian, Bur-
nett, upon the subject? After describing the rittlfica-
-41 the Treaty, he added, " and some ambiguous
'ire captained its toosejr of the Irish." . thsilee
scemetances theovhe thought Its wan It tiltlq
it his assent to the motion of the Hon. Baronet,
at least upon the ground of the Treaty of Limerick—
(Cheers.)—He now came to the general question; and
here he must confess that so far was what had been
urged by those who supported this motion, from
decreasing bit reluctance to grant the general questiop,
that it had only increased his distrust, and aggravated
all hit objections. When the Honourable Baronet
declared these was no difference in the principle
which sent a mars to the faggot, and that which
inflicted the penalties now existing in this country—
and when his Right Honourable Friend the Attor-
ney-General for Ireland, told bins that if they
withheld the same power from any body of /English-
men, they would rim in arms-,--(Lood cheers)—when be
beard these things asserted for the purpose of influencing
the decision of that House, he started from them with
abhorrence—(Cheerin) And was he to hear the names
of Burke and Pitt invoked to the aid of such abominable
doctrines?—(Continued cheering.) Was be to hear his
Right Hoe. Friend male suoh a declaration as this,,
when a lags body of his fellow subjects in England
were actually in the condition supposed ; and when he
remembered that his Right Hon. Friend presided over
the legal administration of Ireland—(Cheers,) and that,
too, under circumstances of agitation ?—(The Right
Hon—Gentleman was here interrupted by immense
daseriag.)—His astonishment increased beyond his
power to express it. Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt utterly
repudiated the doctrine that these claims could ever be
demanded as a birthright. Mr. Pitt's words. were these:
"These are the grounds upon which this measure can
alone be discussed ; for I cannot allow that, under any
circumstances, or any situation of affairs, can we enter-
tain the discussion of the question as a right. I never
was one of those who held the term 'Emancipation,'
at all applicable to a repeal of the few remaining penal'
laws." Thus he not only rejected the doctrines of those
Who now supported the measure, but 'even their very
name. Mr. Pitt then went on to declare his opinion
that it must be in human nature for the Catholics to
endeavour to advance the interests of their religion, when
time and opportunity offered. This was also his (Mr.
Peel's) opinion. It was because he held, with Mr.Pitt,that
whenever opportunities should arrive, the RomanCathco
lies would do all in their power to advance their religion,
that he would prefer exclusion to securities, and take
his stand at once against further concessions. He would
fairly own, that, upon constitutional grounds, he had a
distrust of the Roman Catholic Religion. He found
fault with no man for his faith ; he never applied his
objections to the individual ; but if he found that upon
a particular religious faith there was, and had been
grounded, a scheme of worldly policy, he had a right
Ito inquire into its nature ; and if he found it pernicious,
he had a right to take precautions against it—(Hear).
Could any man douht,then, that those who presided over
the Roman Catholic Religion had had something mon
than the purity of religious faith in view? Wnen be
saw that religion calculated to give man poser over
man—when he saw such doctrines as those of absolu-
tion, confession, and indulgence—.what was it to him
whether they called it spiritual or temporal authority?—
here was an authority; an influence exercised over
men's minds, which Must have some object beyond the
simple interests of religion. When he found that so lately
as in the year 1807, Pope Pius the 7th issued a bull,
which was promulgated in Ireland, offering 900 days'

' Indaigence to any good Cathol;c who should devoutly'
utter three pious ejaculations therein named, in favour
of the souls then in purgatory, he was astonished and
disgusted."' As to the attempted explanations of such'
things, the more he examined them the greater was the
mystery, and the greater his disgust. And when he
reflected that this piper was sent by rational men,
and received by rational meo, for the purpose of work •

. .
I ing on the ignorance and superuition of the uneducated,
he thought it pretty evident that there must be othet
objects than those of religion. Although beheld no ob-
jection to individuals entertaining a profession of the
Catholic faith, yet he had strong objections to the poli.
tical system connected with it. If he looked to countries,
where this religion luxuriated and held an undiyjded'
sway—if he looked to others where it was left to struggle'
with rival establishments—and if he looked iat house,
. .

where it was kept within certain limits and restrictions
—he was forced to the conclusion, that that State was,

the happiest and the meat fortunate which supper
a mitigated, moderate,- temperate predominance of
Protestant Church. It would be the natural comes

of Catholics when once admitted to Parliament, to take

every opportunity of improving the condition of their
religion, and placing it in a MOTO favourable elitilltion
in England. It was not the eventual destructinie if thel
Protestant Church which he apprehended, bat iheilon-
flicts and struggles which must follow any attem to
accomplish that object. His Right Hon. Friend• had
told them that this measure would be the final consum-
mation of all that was wished and hoped for by theCotho-
lics. He did not believe it. He thought that the
Catholics, once in the House, would soon unite them-
selves in the pursuit ot ulterior objects, for bettering
the condition of their Church, and that they would by
degrees find the means ot gaining support, and perhaps
success. As he thought it WAS to guard against this
possible increase of the influence of the Romtn Catholic
rrligion; that the penal laws were passed'; it was in
order to continue that safeguard Kat he now opposed
their removal ; yet so anxious was he for the tranquil-
lity and security of Ireland, that he had no hesitation in
declaring, that if be thought such an immense imme-
diate good could be derived from the present mea-
sure, he would be ready to purchase it by the
sacrifice of these possible remote effects upon the
Constitution. If he was sure, indeed, that this was
the way which would lead them to the Elysian
Fields, he should think the risk suborditute to the cer-
tain advantage of such an acquisition; but he could
not make up his mind to any such conclusion. He
thought that when the Roman Catholics were admitted
to an equality, the same disturbances and struggles for
office and power which now agitated the country would
still be carried on. If the spiritual authority of the
Priests were to be admitted now, how would they deny
it after such a measure had passed ? Hit Right Hon.
Friend called it patriotism now—(Cheeu). Patriotism!
~.-(Cheers and laughter). It was patriotism no*, be-
pause they supported his-Bill. But when that was passed,
sbey would be the judges of what was patriotism them-
select; and it would then be too late to deny their right
of exercising this spiritual authority for the furtherance
of their own views. With. regard to the professions
and decimations of the Catholic Prelates, he could not,
as a public man, give the same confidence which they
had so readily obtained from his Right Hon. Friend.
His Right Hon. Friedat
...,4 ;Fuji tusk ob get was to infuriate the people,
rbritttimidahe der Rolls lam coneessimi. Not
Catholic Prelates discountenanced these dema-
.....1 who so excited his Right Hon. Friend's indigos-
.on? had they advised the Catholics of Ireland to sub-
mit to the law, and not to be led into intemperate
conduct by the demagogues of the Catholic Auocia-
tion ? Of the Catholic Prelates who signed the Peti-
lion presented to the House by his Right Hon. Friend;
eleven were members of that Association—(Cheers).—o
The tram which he bad been content to follow with
regard to Ireland was, to enforce the laws with im-
partiality, to inquire into all abuses, and to redress
grievances where they were found to exist. Farther
dean that, according to the present firm conviction-Of
his miad, he could not go. It was with unfeigned
sorrow that he differed from his friends around him,
whom he so cordially respected, and from whom be
differed upon no other question in the slightest degree.
—(Cheers from Mr. Canning.)—The influence of some
great and illustrious names had lately been lost to that
side of the question which he advocated. He never
had adopted his opinion from the influence of station,
however illustrious, or of names, however power-
ful. But while he deeply lamented the loss which
the country had sustained, it was some consolation to
him to feel that he was now continuing to support the
cause which he formerly espoused, when no man could
possibly suspect him of motives into which considers.
'dons of personal advantage could by possibility enter.
(The Right. Hon. Gentleman sat down, amidst the loud
cheering of the House.)
Mr.BROUGHAM said so much had been adduced on
the side which he advocated, that it was hardly necessary
for him to say a word or two. After the display of brilliant
argument which had been made in the House last night ;
laud after the speech of his Hon. Friend that night, in
which eloquence, wit, and argument were so well com-
bined, that they produced nothing but conciliatory wis-
dom, be should be-wrong if he did not confine hiasselfto
a verfaarrow compass. He denied that the Treaty of
Limerick was framed and worded as the Right Hon.
Gentleman made it appear. He then alluded to the
Log's-Speech of the 29th of July, 1820, in which a full
participation in all the benefits of the British Constitu-
tion, was prOposed to be extended to his Majesty's
Roman Catholic subjects, aid contended that this
was an engagement as binding, or far more binding
than the Meaty of Limerick. Ireland was at present
in such a state that scarcely any change could
make her ,worse. They bad been told of demagogues
defying the attempts of Government to put them
dowa ; these tales might be very amusing, but if that
on which they were founded was true, was it without a
cause? Not one of the Hon. Members, who had taken
the other Side, had ventured to grapple with the alter-
native.--(Cheers). It was for them, it they objected to
that proposed, to come forward and say what. it was
that they were prepared to do-.(Hear, hear 1) This
state of things could not last. if they refused this ma
dun, they might have some little respite; but if Ireland
was still to be treated as it had been, they might as well
at once reply to it with the last word—despair 1
Mr. GOULBORN rose amidst the,cries of "Qom.
tion, question I" He declared his perfect concurrence
with the sentiments of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Peel), from whom he had never differed on political
subjects; and opposed the Resolution—not less upon
,aciple, than upon the impossibility of satisfying the
'its in their demands.

bad the

Mr. Fecretary VA el NiNti said, teat atter the Warn
to which the debate had been carried. the House would
have a sufficient security, both in his discretion and his
reeling., that he should not occupy its time unneces-
sarily. Indeed, be could halve bent content to have
refrained Irom addressing it at all, had he not felt he
might have been charged with disre•pect towards the
House if he allowed the question to go to a division,
lirrlshoot answering some remarks which had been made,
• stating the principles upon which he should support
Resolution. And at the outer, he thought it might
he advisable on his part to call the attention of the
House to the real question before it, and which, he
must say, appeared to have been forgotten by most
of the Honourable Gentlemen who bad taken a past
in the debate, that evening. The Honourable Baronet
had, with that generosity and prodigality which is
inspired by a good cause, offered too many `rather
than too few arguments in the support of his Resole.
ion; and because the object of the Hon. Baronet had
not been simply stated, a most unfair advantage bad
been taken by the opponents to the measure. The ob-
ject of the Resolution really was to ascertain whether
it was the intention of the new Parliament to follow in
the steps of the old one ? Notwithstanding that fact,
however, objections were made, because come detailed
plan was not laid before the House, whet all that the
Resolution asked was a decision as to a preliminary
principle. It appeared to hinsexttaordioary that a Mem-
ber who had never before sat in that House should be
guilty of so gross an error, but it was indeed truly sur-
prising that the example should have been set by a Right
Hen. Gentleman fret whom the most perfect judicial
accuracy might have been expected—(Hear, heir, and
laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had divided
his speech into two parte ; the one part was historical,
and the other critical. The Right Hon. Gentleman'
himself had confessed that the historical part was not
very accurate, and he (Mr. Canning) had no doubt that
he should succeed in 'hewing that theeritieal part was
not more fortunate. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad
argued.from first to last that as there were no securities
propounded, so therefore the Resolution should not be
agreed to by the House. No securities propoended4
Propounded in what ? Why, in a Resolotion.--(Cheers
and laughter from the Opposition). A Resolution
which simply called upon the House to say whether
it isberited, or whether it abjured the sentiments enter.
Mined by its predecessor? question propounded
to that House was, that it was incumbent upon it to
take into consideration the disabilities under which the
Roman Catholics laboured, with a view to theft relic&
Thus, then, no plan was necessary; no plan could hove
been introduced, and the House was only called upon
to resolve on a simple principle. The. House was there.
fore asked a plain question, and why was it asked that
question? Was it for idle purports? Most certainly
not; it was asked because the House of. Commons had
bees returned to its constituents, that a. great, change
had taken place in its opinions on the Question of Ca..-
thedic Emancipation. He did not believe that any such
change had been produced--(Loud cheers)w—Sull it was
most important to ascertain the fact. The IL:elution
had been proposed for that purpose, and where, then,
would he ask, was its impropriety to be found ?
(Hiterr).—h was said that a Bill ought to hart been
introduced, but be thought it would have been most
unwise to have attempted to introduce a Bill, without
first learning whether the House was in • temper likely
to receive it? If the Resoletion before the Hausa woe
senrnsdriben Voidd be the proper time to think of
eneteing into details; but be apprehended evits7 one
would agree with him in thinking that it would be
highly unwise to excite the expectations of the Roman
Catholics, by the preparation of a Bill, and an attempt
to bring it forward, before it was known whether the
House would be inclined to look upon the measure with
the slightest favour.—(Hear, hear 1)—So much then for
the necessity of bringing forward at that period a
scheme of securities, and other details, which had been
required by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman:
But that Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced the
names of those persons who had heretofore taken in
active part in favour of Emancipation, and had argued
that they all, and he (Mr. Canning), amongst the rest,
bad insisted on the necessity of adequate security being
given. He bad also, in very courteous terms, accused
hint (Mr. Canning) of having abandoned that principle.
He (Mr. Canning) had abandoned no principle which
he had entertained upon the question—(Cheers). The
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had asked him,
" how he, who in 1818 had required securities, had
ceased to do so now r But did the Right Honourable
Gentleman know that he (Mr. Canning) did not still
require securities? How did the Right Honourable
Gentleman know that he (Mr. Canning) had been guilty
of such a dereliction from duty as to abandon a principle
without offering even a pretence for such conduct 1—
(Cheers.) He did not know whether the Right Hon. and
Learned Gent. was a Member of that House in 1813—
(a Member opposite said that the Master of the Rolls
was not.) The Right Honourable Gentleman, thee,
was not a Member, he, therefore, perhaps, might be
ignorant of that portion of the historical part of the
question, although a very different abridgement would
have supplied the deficiency—(Hear and laughter,).—
and consequently he (Mr. Canning) would take upon
himself the office of historian for a few minutes, and
acquaint the Right Honourable and Learned G. ntle-
man with what had really °centred. In 1812, he had
the honour of proposing a resolution to that House very
similar to the one then before it ; but it was under
different circumstances; for, instead of being at the
commencement of a Parliament, it was at the close of
one. That resolution was carried, and it was afterwards
adopted in their new Parliament by a much larger
majority than he had ventured to hope for. Indeed, he
believed he might with justice say, that be had been so
fortunate as to gain the most signal victory which had
yet been obtained, for the majority on that occasion
was no less he believed than 159—(Hear). He imme-
diately resigned the fruits of his victory into the hands
of Mr. Grattan, of that man whose pat:locket merited
every commendation, and a Bill was brought in. He
(Mr. Canning) drew up a scheme of securities, which
appeared to him to be sufficient : but whether they
were of any value or not, was a matter of no importance.
But he could not but remark,that a great deal of fal-
lacy seemed to be concealed in the term securities.—
Any one who bad heard the Right Honourable Gentle.
niaa, would have imagined that they went to provide
particularly for the preservation of the Church and
State, while the real fact was, that they were very far
from being of so vastly an important character. Tte
'comities which he had proposed were two. The one
was, that the Election of the Roman Catholic 2Gsfrops
shuuld be somewhat under the restrain. -' -
and the other was, that the Private Col
tweet the Court of Rome and the

lint of the Crown.
!oatespondsoce be-
Roman Catholics