Star.
London, England, 1816-03-02 00:00:00

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rnaPef. Gentlemen, when they obierved, that, in
.fion then before them, it was truly stated by-
g peg
t traJoule:), on whose behalf it was presented, that
it alb:rcii was primarily occasioned by the dis.
...,51„1,ieb at resent overwhelmed the agricultural
7ie_iliare, hear.) Another observation of the
7nnutahie Gentleman, in which he perfectly aiited,
the necessity of a system of the strictest economy
,hg adopted by his Majesty's Ministers—(Hear.)'
„ow oppose every measure that was not marked
reennosay. p
led his views on this point he had given
g StrOn.felt pge to his constituents, in the Tote
rhad given two nights ago in that Houae—a'vote
leeh,,however painful to himself, an imperious
naeoi :duty demanded—(Near, hear.)
GKENFELIa expressed his opinion; that, if
nper retrenchments were made in every depon-
ent of Government, particularly in the military de-
irsvnt, it would be quite unnecessary to continue
OJiOLIS burden, the Income 'l'ax, which, although
partial and oppressive in its operation,
Ain a constitutional point of view, still more ob-
ton sble--,-(Hear, heart) He hoped that retrench-
eat, in the general service of the country, would
odor it unnecessary even to raise a loan from the
oblic. But, if a loan should be called for, it would,
his-opinion, be expedient, in the highest degree, to
oil ourselves of the clause (commonly called Mr.
o,tcbuse), in the Bill of 1786, and to take from
Wiring Fund the sum that was wanted. if a
aeon course were pursued, the effect would mere-
lyre th.put into the pocket of the Loan Contractor
ro& which, under a different system, would
toot. to a considerable saving to the public.-1
ifkgeoper.)
,The income Tax was so odious in its
ore, that, under no modifications whatever, ought
ito be resorted to at a period of peace. It was not
early objectipaable on account of its burdensome
woe, hut because its operation was so repugnant to
nay principle of civil liberty, that no country de •
led to be called frt.. . which submitted to )
Be alluded particuhuly to its inquisitorial pc:tare:4
tibia had been exercised in a way trust Oppressive
led injurious to the public ; not by the Commis-
ion, who performed their duties gratis—but b
*Commissioners for the Affairs of Taxes in Sown:
othaee—(liser, hear.) It was by them chat w 4
Zbe termed inquisitorial torture had been u*.f.
),In his opinion, as to the propriety of
tM et a part of the inOing Fend, knew !taking
many(scd from Gentlemen on that • dit‘
for whose abilities he felt the highestide
ofpecthte.
iiiasotted his opinion in 1813, and nothing
lad since Occurred had tended to alter thneosent 111--- that
be then felt and expressed. H's opinion was,'titnlhaetntis
this odious Tax should be abandoned, (u he hoped,f
*co the general
tone of disapprobation which the
em b
ery manifested, it would be,) and it, every
pale retrenchment having been made, still some
farther pecintiAry atsistance was required' that it
world then be more advantageous for the country,
in the prelim circumstances, rather than have re-
mule to a Loan,* or to this most oppressive Tax to
take what warwanted from the Sinking Fund....
(Hew; ken)
Mr. RAMMERSLEY deprecated any interfe-
rence,with the Sinking Fund. On 'this point, he
wouLtremind the House of the last
• by King William, one of the
w. speech .delivered
'fit Monarchs thacienviebraresigneeeldh:stohvaendr thianis"coPirtryr,
haat the throne.
to myself, that no person who has eevesar said—s'
.Bat-
oal-a
Parliamentary arrangenunt will suffer
Ki by it." These
were ainust the last words of ig William, and
they ought ir f agottehneby that.. House. With
aspect to the flopetty Tar, entirely agreed in the
.entiments of the Honour..s'e
e Gen alit° who. had
shit 'Picea —Wear, h„,) He
e considered th
tress e dis-
el the Country to have' b occasioned, in a
Feat measure, by that deo.stablienand shametto Tax.
t .1 ought to be recollected, Parliament was
pledged to put an mid to this Tax when
conciud l'hit was one greatreasolnn peace wastornotre-
awing it, 11. r there was another still greater—the
contquences produced by
eat is abominable tucisure•
While that lasted, -as, in fact, no British
Constitution..-.( Bear, r.) l his had been said a
few nights before 1 guishe :1 Member of :hat
House (Mr. Coke) ,kit he had not devoted him-
self entirely to tole;,ter s the people, might have
sat in the House of Peerses ; and he agreed entirely in
the truth of the sentiment, which, coining from such
stouter, ought to make a great impression on the
Home--k..fitear, Bear.) •
/h. PONSONLiY did not rise for the purpose of
thelletru are adapted isginto
td forany, discussionmeeting
*as to the mode that
those expenses which
the state of the country emanded ; he kt 'shed in-:rely
his
every Gentleman that
is own mane, and in the name of his co....tituents,
that de:eaabie measure, the Income %%A -••(ileary
kw). —and every part i f the country was responsive
to the • soi expressed—(Hear, hear) An Ho-
pourabdemned7
anyr appropriation
les (Mr. Hammers e) eon.
the Sinking Fund to
the service of the ontr Hofe meant not to argue
on the propriety or imprOprietfof such a proceeding,
but he would call the 'attention of the House to the'
only true point connected with this subject—that was
the reduction ollieexpense. in every department of the
• Government ,or. Every thing else was
ickery, delusion,Kd falsehood, and
. imposition on the
V• pie—(lfear, hear.) euctson of expense, and
t44' alone, particulait the
h expehse of the military
department, could avail t the present moment; and
it Ministers would not adoptat system spontane-
ously,he hoped the House would compel them to em.
brace it.—(Hear, hear.)
BLNN Err • was ooserve3, that this the pe.
tned ev,nitig on which he had missed. the Right
flrluorno. Gin:ntplleamcean. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
in that House. This -conduct he
looked on as a_deliberate slight tolls. House. (Near,
he3r.) Mr. Pitt, in the plenitude of his power, hid.
never treated the Commons of Greet Britain in that
disrespecttul manner. (Hear, hear.) There Were
dirt surely ether Minister,:,
the t who likewise absented themselves ;
House was not be deserted' by the
Officers of the Crown, d
Peat
military because the question, our
y establislubent was not to . COMIC on
eight.
Mr. GOULBURN said, the House must be
OMAR!
, that the Noble Lord who filled the office of
c,r:_ta rY
.of State for tee Foreign Department, was
in• d
4,
_saP?se ds and that, in conseqiience of his iedisposi-
' " debates which was to lutes taken -place this

' evening, had been postponed. With respect to the
Chalk Am. of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Bathurst)
he could state to the Houma, that that Gentleman.
had been confined to his bed for some time.. lie was
not in a situation to make his appearance in the
House. As to the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
whom he had not seen, he would offer no apology
for him. (Hear, hear-) But from the ignorance on
this point of an individual, like himself, who burrito
communicated with - the Right Honourable Gentleb,
man, it was not fair to infer, that his absence was
prompted bya desire to offer a slight to the House.
With respect to the. Master of the Mint (Mr. W.
Pole) he was equally ignorant of the cause alas ab-
sence. (Year, hear.) He would, however, from his
kodwledge of those Honourable persons, undertake
to say, that there was not the slightest intention, on
the part of either, to neglect his duty, or to offer any
disrespect to the House.
- Mr. BROUGHAM said, the Right Hon. Gen-
; *man had nut accurately described those who were
really ill, and those who were only indisposed to
come down to the House. He should like to hear a
correct account of the sickness by which the Chancel-
lor of the ExcheqUer and the Masteeof the Mint were
afflicted. (A laugh.) Was it an isfiaelsza, or were
they troubled with a atrial of the Income Tax ( 4
laugh.) He believed, that there were two or three
hours, in the early part of every evening, which were
most unfavourable to patients labouring under the
latter species of indisposition. (Hear, hear.) He
meant, while the petitions, from every part of the
country, were presenting against the Income Tax.
(Hear, hear.) On these occasions, he believed the
symptoms of the diseart were greatly aggravated by
certain speeches which were delivered, by Members
not connected with any party in that Heusi. He
wished to enquire, whether this sort of oidary, by
which the Ministers of the Crown were attacked, was
not, in fact, a sickness of the Property Tax ? If this
were thee Ise, he supiosed they meant to give it up.
Mr. LUSIiINGTON stated, that indisposition
alone was the cause of ihe absence of his Right He-
neurable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer),
wlia had, with cinsiderable difficulty and inconveni-
ence, Attended on the two preceding evenings. With
respect to the Learned Gentleman's question, as to
his Right Ho.. Friend's intention of abandoning the
Property Tax, be could assure him, that he continued
to think it the wisest and most just measure that
could be devised. (Hear, hear.) In this opinion he
entirely coincided ; and, whenever the proper oppor-
tunity arrived, he wo .1d be - ready, as far as his
humble abilities went, to meet the Learned Gentle-
man on the subject he tax.
An Honourable Member, whose name we could
-
not learn, stated, that he 'vas not present, on former
evenings, when petitions were poured. in against the
renewal of the Property Tax, or he should have
stated his unqualified disapprobation of it. He al-
ways disliked the tits ; but he abhorred the idea of
its renewal, since it was intended to uphold that mi.
litare machiae, which Ministers wished to force upon
the country.
Lord EBRINGTON said, that a report had this
day reached him, from A distant part of the country,
that the intention of Ministers to abandon the Pro-
perty Tax, was very .prevalent. The letter which
ersotained this stag mint, set forth, that the idea of
'the tax being abandoned, took its rise from a para.
graph which had appeared in a newspaper, remar
kable for its support of Ministers. He did not like
the circulation of inch rumours, which were set
afloat fora sinister purpose. Ministers knew too we]; I
II their duty to the Commons of England, not to .t rte
' their intention of giving up the tax, if such an i
lion existed. But it appeared from the observation of
the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. ...u;hlog-
ton) that nothing was farther from their thou
He hoped, however, that the voice of the House of
Commons woult; shortly compel them to give up this
inquisitorial and oppressive measure. ( Hear, hear.)
Phis mode of sen•ihg unfounded rumours abrnt.l,
was -me of the many arts ::sorted to, on the present
occasion (lie knew not-by wham) to prevent the
voice of the people, at public meetings, from being
expressed in oppoitiNi to this tax. (Hear.)'
Sir JOHN OWEN hoped, that the general ex.
pression of pop ilar feeling air oast this tax, which
was hea:J it every par, of the country, would pro-
note a proper effect is D 4 jery's Minnn•Tc, and
induce them to abaudon the measure.—(Hear, hear).
The i,reat body of the )(Huff " as compktsly hostile
to the tax, for the be" possibl: I eawm—it it were re.
new: Jo they were quite unania to pay The Agri-
Colonial di,tress thri tiolsout the coiintry was most ap-
palling, and in no part of th kingdom was it greater
than in the County (Pembroke) which he had the
honour to represent. If effectual relief were
,not
granted, the nature of the people of this country
w0..1d be changed—and, instead of a hardy and
virtuous body of peasantry, the kingdom would be
filled with paupers. He had seen many meetings of
labourers, who were ready to supp rt their families
by the exertions of honest industry, if they could get
employment—but, being disappointed in that expec-
tation, they were relaed to apply to their respective
parishes for relief.—(Near, hear).—A sort of threat
had been held out, that, if the House did not agree
to this tax, something worse would be proposed.—
The answer to this was, that, when the question came
fairly before them, they would know how to dispose
of it, as to them seemed fit. If a more oppressive mea-
sure were introduced, the same power which enabled
them to defeat the Property Tax, would be sufficient
to compel Ministers to abandon any more burden.
some tax, if such a tax could be devised. With re-
spict to the Sinking Fund, be did not think that the
appropriatioe of a part of it to the exigencies of the
State, would be any breach of the public faith. He
did not coaceiie, when the necessities of the country
&mlolded a sacrifice, that the interest of the
_ stuck.
holder, or ,of any other particular body, should be 'I
,opposed to the general, benefit.— (Hear, Isear.)—He
hoped
as successful as it was general. Ministers, before))
they decamped to press it, should recollect, that-I
what was termed firmness, if carried beyond a certain
point, became obstio tey, and often led to the worst ,
consequences.— (Hear. .hear.)
observed. that though he did not I,
present any petition from Glasoow on the subject of I
the Property rex, yet the notioitants of that great
city coincided wit's the general sense of the country
at large—(Hear, hear.) The Tax, in his opinion,
could uoly be puttied tan We grounds pf the most

urgent seetuley, led dterefore he did sot easeelve
it accessary to inquire whether Parliament was
pledged to the country on the subject or hot ? The
duty of Parliament, at all times, was to provide for
the necessities of the people t but it could not possibly
be its duty to impose upon them a Tax, which, at the
present time, would be unnecessary, unoonstkutional,
and inquisitorial.-..(/Year, hear.)
Mr. COKE (f Norfolk) stated, that he hid re-
cently seen a Geutleman from Scotland, who in-
formed him, that the population of that country were
universally hostile to the renewal of the Tax—and
all were most anxious to know, whether there was
time sufficient for their Petitions to come up, before
the measure was introduced to Parliament ? He (Mr.
Coke) was firmly convinced, that so long as this in-
quisitorial Tax remained; there could be no British
Conatitution—(Neer, hear). —He said this on the
first day of the Session, and he repeated it now.
This mischievous, wicked, and immoral tax was
utterly at variance with civil liberty.--(Hear, hear).
Lord 'NUGENT was extremely glad that the
Honourable Gentleman opposite had stated the in-
tention of Ministers to press this Tax, because that
declaration would dispel a delusion, under *hich the
people of England had been labouring for some
weeks. That delusion was, the reported abandon-
ment of the Tax by Ministers, which was calculated
to prevent them from-venting their feelings by peti-
tion. There would now, he hoped, be such a gene-
ral and spirited manifestation of hostility to the 'fay.
as would compel Ministers to recede front their oii-
ginal intention.
Lord MILTON was anxious to know what spe-
cific proposition would be made on the subject., when
the measure was introduced to the House ?
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he was not informed
on this point.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to learn when the mea-
sure would be brought forward, as he deprecated any
attempt to take the House by surprise ?
Mr. LUSH INGTON answered it could not be in-
troduced before Wednesday.
The Petition was then laid on the table.

On the suggestion of Mr. LAMBTON, the ac•
count of offices in the colonies, the appointment to
which is •ested in the Crown, was withdrawn by Mr.
Goulburn, for the purpose of inserting the names of
the persons by whom the offices are 611e1

Mr. COKE gave notice that he would, on Thurs-
day, the 14th inst.tnt, ste,mit to the House a motion
on the subject of the IV/r Malt Tax.

CIVIL LIST.

Mr. BROUGHAM thought it was extremely Ne-
cessary, that an account of the application of the
large sum of money voted, in the I.:st Session, for
discharging the arrears of the Civil Li.t, should :.)e
laid barite the House. : qttlemen on that side of
the House had been taunted for beire, in what
was termed, "an eronomical mosd." (Hear,. hear.)
The tountry, he btheved, was in an economical
mood—and, as the liouse and the nation fully par-
ticipated in that be was anxious to discover
whether the *.mie mood was to be found in higher
quarters. If so, he should like to see whether the
sum voted last Session, had been applied in tLe way
which Parliament intended it should. He did not
mean to say, cleft it :tad not been so applied; but, so
long as he felt the umiak:it doubt en the subject, be
would endeavour to have that doubt removed. The
country at large ought to be acquainted with the de-
tailed application of the ♦ery great sum of money
voted to defray the arrears of the Civil List in the
last Session. He should therefore move—
" hat an humble Address he presented ut the Prince Regent,
requesting that be Royal Highness will be pleased to .11rect, that
there L, lard betore the House an account of the application of
the sum of too ley, voted Let Session, in discharge at the arrears
of the (lid List."

Lord PA LMERS FON said, as the Learned Gen-
Li. man had alluded to an expression (.. an economi-
cal mood,") made use of by him on a former occa-
sion, he wished to sae a few words in explanation.—
, When he used the expression, he did not mean to is-
sinuate, twat this was not a time when an economical
as ritaxement ought to be set on foot, in every depart-
inent of Government. His observation applied to
what appeared to him to be an overstrained attempt
at economy, pafticUlarly with ieterence to our mill.
Mary establishment. The reductions recommended
by Gentlemen opposite did not, in his view of the
strltt.t, pri,ceed on a rightiy understood principle of
economy —but went to lower, in a degree that would
be prejudicial to the country, that establishment
which the security of the, nation demanded.
Mr. TIERNEY expressed his hope, that, if the
document moved for, were granted, it would be so
drawn up as to specify every single item, to the dis-
charge of which the vote of
,Parliament was appro.
Foliated.
Mr. BROUGHAM said,. that h was important
to know whether the Tradesmen's Bills, for the pay
went of which this money was voted, had, in tact,
been diseiargedl or, in other words, whether the.:
real purpose for which it was intended had been
kept in view ? He trusted that the result of an in-,
,quirt' would chew, that none of the Bills in question
were lett unpaid.
Mr. TIERNEY said, that if it was not satisfacto-
rily shewn to him that the money had been applied,
as Parliament intended it should, he would move for
an examination at the bar of certain witnesses, who'
could, perhaps, throw a light upon the subject.
Sir W. CONGREVE said, that the money col-
lected during the Park fetes had been transmitted
to the Bank of England, where it lay, awaiting the
distiibution of the Commander in Chief of the Forces
and thi'First Lord of the Admiralty, who were to
devote it to some charitable purposes connected with
the Anis, arid Navy. The sum did not amount to
more than £9OOO.

Mr. TIERNEY said, that this was not the sum
Ito which he referred. He had no intention of in
spiting into the receipts of the triumph in the Parks,
nbr into the circumstances of that Celebrated ovation.
He merely sought information ,as to the distribution
of some parts at the general sum of ,C 530,000, which
bad been voted for the Civil List.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH was proceeding to
inquire into the rea.ons for wfthholciing the accouCts
of the Sums due by France, according to the Treaty
of the 20jh December ; when
Mr. ARBUTHNOT informed him, that the
Papers to which be alluded had been laid on the
table early in the evening.

PROPERTY Tex.

Mr. JOLIFFE poseated a tuition from =clue-

tee, and one Gas the County Modred of Tendring,
in Essex, against lire lknanta' Prlierty Tax and the
War Malt Tax. —Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. HOI,ME SUMNER. rose to present a Rill-
don from the Parish of Bermondsey against th t Pro-
perty Tax. In doing this, he owed it, in candour to
the Petitioners, to state, that after-the moot :nature
consideration be could give this subject, •it was his
firm belief, that rio tax could be devised for rising so
large 4 sum, which was so litde oppressive in its ge-
neral character, so impartial in its i.peration, and so
inexpensive in its collection-- (Hear, /sear.) Hold-
ing an *pinion in this respect diffveur from that of
the Petitioners, he felt it notwithstanding to be his
duty to present their Petition.
Sir JAMES MACKIN t'OSH said that he wonid
not be appalled by tie opinion of the Hon. Gert:e.
man; and fur two reasoos: thr first was, that fie :lad
the satisfaction of being enabled to .support a ..on-
fury view of the subject, on the authority of that
Honourable Member's awn constitueins
secondly,• on the authority of an Hon. Mc ram r
from North Britain, who had filled die office ~f C ,m-
-missioner under the Property 'l'ax at Glasgow, and
whose opinion was, that the TAX could not be carries
into execution. The people felt it oppressive , and t ,ey
were probably as good judges of what affect, d theirs
is the Hon. Gentleman cou:d be—(Meer, hear.)—
He was further consoled in differing with u at Ho-
nourable Member, by having, in corroboration tit his
own opinion, the unanimous voice of the ki igdorn
raised to express the abhorrence andaletestai.,n with
which the public viewed the continu Axe .4 this ()Jr.
ous tax.—(Thar, ;gat.),-4 US Which was ti.e direct
reverse of the description given of it by tioreme.
able Gentleman, being both oppressive in s opera.
tion, and partial in' as general character; intxpea.
sive in its collection it certainly wac, and that ..is
the only point in which he couctreei, with the -HO-
nourable Gentleman. He time.; the }Luke, the
grand inquest of the nation into tile e&peoditure at
the Crown, would never tolerate an inquisitorial ins.
post, which called for the disclosure of private affairs
as this tax did, and which created a strong political
influence by the latitude it conferred of reducing some
returns, and making surcharges in others, without,
in any case. the privilege of appeal from the Commis-
sioners. He (Sir James) preferred agreeing with the
universal voice of the cation, rather thin yield his and
their opinions to that of the Honourable Gentleman.
Mr. SHAW was quite conviuced the tax could nor.
be supported.
Sir WILLIAM CURTIS presented a Petition
from the Tower Ward, and one from Langbourne
Ward, against this tax. The Worthy Baronet oh.
served, that these petitions contained as strong an
expression of hostility to the measure, as could pos.
silly be uttered. The Petitioners maintained a stead-
fast attachment to the Government, during the long
course of the late war ; but the fact was, tire people
could not bear this tax in the present times.—(Hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM congratulated the Ministers
on their absence, when this petition was presented.
Had they been present, he was afraid their illn:ss
would have been a little aggravated. He could not,
however, but hope that their colleagues who were
present would not refrain from administering to them
the comfort which Petitions strongly couched like
this, were calculated to afford. He hoped at least
they would mention the ,subject.
Mr. LUSHINGTON replied, that the Honour.
able and Learned Gentleman had omitted to put
their memories in requisition, to transmit the vaiu.-
.bk and candid sentiments of his Honourable Fianid
near him (Mr. Sumner).
Sir JAMES SHA W presented a Petition to the
same effect from Bridge Ward, and one from the
Ward of Vintry. The Honourable Baronet ob-
served, that but one feeling pervaded ail the Warts
of the City of London against the tax. They con-
ceivede that a direct forfeiture of public taith had
taken
place, and that ao justification could be made
for the continuance of a tax, which overwhelming
necessity alone justified—now that the circutustanccs
which °ritually produced it bad altJgether ui,..p.
peared.

Mr. CALCRAFT presented a Petition from the
Mayor and Inhabitants of Colchester on the same
subject. The Petitioners were firmly of opinion,
that if this tax were persevered in, public faith was
at an end. it was difficult, indeed, for one who
felt as strongly as he did upon the subject, to ex-
press himself as he could wish. But he would re.
fer them to the strongest epithets with 'Lich thin.
tax, had any where been branded, and they would
then find sentiments pretty near those he held on the
injustice of the measure. The battle of Waterloo
was to have given repose to the feelings of this coun.
try. The conquest of Paris was to have consumma.
ted this happy era—and yet it seemed the victory
was not decided, and that in that the battle of the
people were still to be fought. But if the country
held firm, it would be in vaiu to force.this tax against
its wishes. Without the people, continuathe Hon.
Gentleman, the opposition to this impost may pos.•
sibly fail—with them it must succeed. Let them,
therefore, not relax in their efforts—let them perse-
vere in sending forth their petitions against this odious
measure. It was well for the' Gentlemen opposite
that they had, at length, found one man (Mr. Sum.
ner) to express aprobation of this tax.
Mr. CHARLES CALVE itT presented a similar
Petition from the Inhabitants of the parish of St.
Olives. It was, he said, most numerously and re.
spectably signed, and by a large class of persons who
,had patiently borne the burdens of the war with a
confidence in the ultimate integrity of their Govern-
ment. They now complained of ill faith, and he
(Mr. Calvert) agreed with tliem, that on the 20th
of February, 1815 the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had pledged himself to a discontinuance of the Tax
at the termination of the war. How had he fulfilled
his pledge ?—(Hear, hear.) Two questions had beets
put to his Honourable Friend opposite in the course
of The evening, which had received a cautious and
rather an evasive answer. One Was—what was the
principle as which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
meant to introduce the question of the Property Taxi!
To which the answer was—that the forms of the
House could not allow him to bring forward the
measure before Wednesday next. The .second Ties.
don was—whether he had abandoned the nseasure
To this the answer was—that the Chancellor of this
Exchequer believed it to be a wise and just measure.
Now he (Mr. Calvert) would like to havemrsp .ore
diiti/St answer on both these points. [Torts