Star.
London, England, 1829-03-06 00:00:00

.Ire and is divided, moth divided, on the subject of
concession to the Roman Catholics. Of its respec-
tability who can doqbt? It was signed by two
Dukes, seven Marquises, twenty two Earls, besides
Barons, Baronets, and Gentlemen of high station. My
object in dwelling on these points is to show how unsafe
it would be for the Protestant interest to proceed to the
repeal of the present privileges enjoyed by the Catholics,
while the Catholics were united and the Protestants
divided, and Ireland under the Government of a new
administration hostile to the claims'of the Catholics.—

The evil result of such a position it is that has given
to me apprehensions, not any such fears of visionary
tenors as are calculated to alarm a timid mind,
but such a cautious apprehension of real and appa.
vent and immediate danger. as any rational man
would be justified in entertaining. Bet, supposing
en administration se united in opposition to conces-
sion to have obtained the consent of Parliament to

the system of exclusion, the question is, how long may
slash a system last? It may last, I grant, while you
ere at peace. But then comes the question, can it be
maintained during the war? If it cannot, then you
will have to consider the approach of war as a most
disastrous period to the interests of the empire; for I
can easily believe that a new Government thus consti-
tuted in hostility to the Catholic claims will be pre-
pared to say that they will adhere tathose principles of
Protestant ascendancy, through all changes and re-
verses—that they will try to maintain their faVeuiite
sy•tem, under all circumstances, however varying t but
can they do what they-profess? To solve this question,
it will be necessary for us that we should. look backs
little to bistoty—to the history of Ireland. I rr&r Isen:
gentlemen to a period (17951) when there were bold beasts
at the bead of the Administration, a Protestant Paine-

=tent united, and an
were
Protestant population in
Deland—when then. were in every county of Iceland
'Grand Juries unanimous' against Concession, and when
the Irish Hone of Commons, by an overwhelming'
majority, rejected, not the Bill, nor a resolition to take
the Catholic Claims into consideration, but the +cry
Petition of the Catholics of Ireland. Yet in spite of
all that unanimity of opposition, in spite of all their
declarations, and resolutions, and rejections, in spite
of a Parliamentary majority of three to one against
Concession, on the announcement of the French war,
the Session of 1793 opened in Ireland with a recom-
mendation from the Throne to Parliament to take into

consideration the state of the Catholics of that country.
and in that very Session of 179$ a measure of emus-

of Rowan

Catholics to power. Now, Sir, Ido deny alba enesoi-
vocally that the question Ts a religions one. I say, Sir,
it is a political question, not to be decided on the ground
of religious feelings or spiritual doctrines. but on a piin-
ciple of expediency, and on reference to the advantages
Sowing trout the removal of the disabilities. But, Sir,
considering kin the light of a religious question (for I'
will meet those Gentlemen even on that ground, though
chosen by themselves), looking at it as a question at.
fecting the interests of the Protestant religion, I ask
Hon. Gentlemen bow far has the existence of the present
exclusive system tended to increase the spread of Pro.
testantism in Ireland?—or rather, has it not obstructed
the progress? Is it not a fact, Sir, that the agents of
ihe Protestant religion in Ireland are suspected of indi.
rect motives, and so thwarted in their operations? la
it not true that the higher classes of the Catholics have
been prevented from cpntoming, under the present
laws, by a sense of honour and a spirit of resistance. to
what they consider as the dominant religion? Now,
Sir, is it not reasonable to expect, that when these
disabilities shall have been removed, the Protestant

faith will have more fair play for the exercise
of her influence in purifying, if not destroying
altopther, the deplorable doctrines of the Catholic re-
ligion in Ireland ? Now, Sir, I must declare that my
propene' is hot of a religions character—that it is
purely a political one; and I am sure that, after I
shall have explained its nature and object, there will
be no Gentleman, believer zealous for the Protestant

religion and its interests, and however friendly he may
be to those points of faith that coi.stitute its difference
from the Roman Catholic, not one, I repeat. who can
*lieu, en religious grounds, to the measure which I am
about to propose. Another objection to this theasore 1.
the argument derived Irons the obligation. of the corn lI
ninon oath. Now, Sir, on that point 1 can only say that,
having for eighteen ye:is-conducted the opposition to
this question in this House, and having in that time
searched with much ansiety for all legitimate arguments
I against it, and this as,ertion will be taken as a proof t.i
my sincerity in that opposition, I uniformly disclaimed
soy objection to it foonded on the construction of the
coronation oath. Sir, 1 ever thought, I now think,
there is nothing in the coronation oath on which you
can found a solid objection to the concession of the
Catholic Claims; and on this construction do not

'ion was passed in favour of the Catholics, and that,
too, with a haste and precipitancy of which we are this
day reaping the bitter fruits. Gentlemen may profess
and boast of their fixedness of purse in adhesing to
meanies of esclnsion under a new Government; but. I
will tell them that, until we can have abolder Minister,
a more Protestain Parliament, and a more united body
of Piotestants, inch scenes as I have just described
essay be acted over again, and the nation may,
through tailcoat fears of danger, be induced to
recede from such resolutions as must be adopted
under a new Government opposed to -the Catholic
Claims. Another alternative resulting from non-
concession—an alternative which, however, has been
but remotely hinted at by Hoisourable Gentlemen. is
a civil war in Ireland. In such an alternative. I, fuvn
the bottom of my' heart, must deprecate; and Geo lot-
bid that the Protestant interest should be loaded with
the responsibility of such a result. Sir, if there wets
any, the remotest, chance that affairs could be forced
to such a monstrous and unnatural issne. I will say that
i I am pupated to make great sacrifices to avert the ca-
lamity. I would appeal to my countrythen in the dying
evoirlatif an illustrtotts patriot, himself the witness, the
partisan' and the victim of a civil war.....tbe great the
virtuonsLord Falkland--" Peace, peace, pease."
4 Coetet in laden dextrn
tin dater t an stmt. eel:murrain arms, covets "
—Sat, supposing the civil war over, and the rebellion
suppressed, where would be the triumph? Inose
would be the success? Whose the glory 0 What ad-
vantage world it bring to the Protestants ? What per-
manent effect would it enforce against the Catholics?
We have Isere, also, history to guide us to results.—
.4 'A civil war, such as has been now anticipated by some
Honourable Gentlemen, actually existed in 1798, un-
-1
der the administration of Mr. Pitt. Of the state of
Ireland at that time the Beast will see the nature
from the description of it inserted in the preamble
of a Bill passe) on that occasion-0 That a rebel-
lion was raging, accompanied with aggravated cir-
cumstances of atrocity, distracted and desolated the
-,. country, set the civil power at defiance, and stopped
• the ordinary course of justice." Supposiog the
rebellion, then, put down, and the immediate ex-
-1 . citement abated, I say that the very first measure
' • that the Government would adopt after the suppression
r of the tumult, would be to procee.l to an adjustment of
the Catholic question ; tor, surely, it web mere not the
.t result of the muses' of the law over insurrection, all
the toil. and pain, and sufferings would h.ve gone for
nothing. Hem again we can ergo. from the part, for,
otter the suppression of the Irish rebellion of 17$8, it
was resolve! by Mr. Pets and Lord Coinwaliis, and
s Lord Casdereagh. the successful agents of Govern-
merit in suppressing the rebektiou, that the first sybe.,
Meat of interim, peace (1E01) should be devoted by i
snem to the settlement of the Catholic question; and
so evventsal did these Ministers consider that adjustH
merst:to be to the interests of the empire, that, en
tailing to ca ry that swami*: into effect, they retired
float afise. Sir, I am satisfied that ems an adosinie-
nation loused on the principle of resistance to tOutior-
si-a would lei so shocked stench a result of their noes.
sores as rebellion must be, that they would complete the
suppression of that rebellion by a settlement of the ques-
tion. Sir, I have laboured thus fir. and so much in
detail. to prove to the people*, this country three pro-
poiiiioits, whisk muse be considered the foundation of
gni alterations to be introduced into tfse present state
of the laws affecting the Catholics. Us first is, ibis
the to= has now arrived for making an attempt to,
settle this question ; secoodly, that we cosset, as far as
that qUastion is concerned, remain a. Pe MO; and,
Stny, OA a 'Waal necessity has arisen to justify Sc is
i an attempt to settle it. i repmt, Sir. that I think kibe'
better—the wiser—.the safer measures, to adjust Ibis
Sung= now than to protract it to ady future period.
• Artif now, Sir, I shall proceed to the consideration of
the measure which has been thought fit to be proposed
by hie-Majesty's Govesument toratliament, as a remedy
for some of the evils accedes; on the existing systes
~ end 4 basis for the eriectiao of • better sitteot_pi 401
authority,-;ad for the satisfactory edjestment and final
coassumnation for ever of to. esthetic ireseiria. Sir, in
. proeeedistg to eoesider the means of itcroalytitllinS Ill*,
!treat and most desirable end, I cannot disguise from
xrhe existence of many didculties to the settlement
.
.. tres;ion ; but I confess that there are sow W 41914
hapastasca I suer admitted, mad whisk is fed, 5 sewer
minted. I ms aware that opposition top n hos arisen
tisiousit threountry, fettatilld on a kenos that titbit a
' iftiotis question, .ant a polisical one; end the petiole
p4s sow *timid, too, *ft tbordit tat mbiog 41.4 a Pee-

stand alone. This was the opinion r.f Mr. Pitt—this
was the opinion entertained and emphatically expressed
by Lord Liverpool. Sir, it is impossible to read the
terms of the oath, and -think, for one moment after,
that the removal. of the civil disabilities affecting the
Catholic is inconsistent with the obligations of that
oath. Sir, I contend (and here I beg to be understood
'as not talking of the incorporation of the Cathoiic
religion with the State) that there is no such incom-
patibility between the obligations of that and the
concession of political privileges to the Catholics.—
But, however lightly I may weigh the objection; which
I have mentioned. I must allow that there are other
obtacles and difficulties. serious and important indeed,
that stand in the way of concessions. I know that
there may be difficulties found, and objections antici-
fated, growing out of the Act of Union. I admit that
many objections, and not irrational ohjecti.ms, may
be urged ; but I earnestly entreat all men to ap-
proach the ques ion in the spirit of mutual concessiciA.
I wish toe House to look at the ultimate object of the
measure, aid, if it appears that it is, in milky, an im-
portant measure—that great advantages may be reaped,
and great danger averted by it— urely no trivial ob-
jection should induce us to forego those advantages, or
to refuse to avert the danger. There have already been
many occasions on which Parlians- nt found it necessary
to throw aside minor objections in order to effect a great
good. Let us look at the period of the union with Scot.
land, when Parliament even made • partial sacrifice of
principle. The union with Scotland was considered
necessary in order to consolidate the Empire. and, be
fore that measure could be effected, it was necessary to
consent to the sacrifice of an independent Legislature,
and to the extinction of an independent Kingdom.—
In this instance Parliament would never have con-
sented to such a sacrifice' had it not been considered
of paramount importance to the nation at large to
effect the Union. The case of the Regency wen
another instance of the necessity of departing from
genei al rules ; and the fact of the representatives of the
people themselves prolonging the trust which had
been reposed in them, and continuing to act as Mem-
bers of Parliament after the period for which they
had bee i elected WAS expired, was surely a violation of
principle, if princii le was always to be judged of by
ordinary toles. The union with Ireland was another
instance. There again a pressing necessity was felt—
gain k was found necessary to sacrifice An independent
Legislature, and a departure Irom principle• was again
I committed which could only be justified by the absolute.
necessity of the State. After this instance I repeat, that
Isivia. I objections should not prevent us hom effecting
a great national good—(Hear). I shall now proceed to
explain the principle of the measures which hi. Majests's,
Government intend to bring before the House, and also
the principle of the ecceptions they intend to introduce;
but first give ate leave So state, in contradiction to re-
ports which have been very generally and very intim,-
moonily circulated, that the measure I shall this even-
s.* submit to. the House is the measure which was
agreed ow before the meeting of Parliament—that there
h*s bees no *lteration in that measure—that no circum-
stance which has skies occurred has induced ate Govern-
ment t.s swerve from it—(Hear)—and that it is the
same which it then appeared expedient is adopt. not
only in name but in substance—(Hear, hear, hes ).
It is also of importance to state that no others but the
GeseettMent have been parties to the mea,nre. They cone
Waled it right to worm it as a Government measure, as
a Bill tot the consideration of the Legislature, not as a
compromise. The Government alone ate the authors
of it; the Government alone are responsible for it
(War, hem). I emu now to the principle and the basis
of the measure. 'The principle is the abolition of tell-
mus distinctions, the equalisation of civil rights (Hear,
ligag. bear). Tittle may be regulations introduced—
*ere may be some objections to the general rule; but
tiltrule; I repeat, is the establishment of equal rights.
To the funberance of this principle I feel I have a right
W the 40,4Peratitre of the Hogue; but this beieg the
principle, I also feel a right to the concurrence of the
alma Catholics in other meatuses which I shall feel it
necessary to iotroduce. There is also another principle
which must be adhered to throughout the measure.
sonily, the maintenasce ot the Protestant religion whole
aid entire—(Hear, bear).. Oar object is to combine the
tltstafigioll of civil right to Of Roman Catholics wilt
jbe permessent establishment of the Protestant Church'
rendered inviolable, not only by the revolution of 1688.
bp( by the affections and devotion of the people of
&lOW. It is not • necessary for me, at present, to
,ems into a detail of the disabilities ander which
AI Bola ,'Pubolics labour. The laws as they es-
iit them have been se minutely and so
'frequently dimmed in this Hasse, that ovary Mew
'bails meg be filly conversant with them. 4111

rot' doubt aware• that eon sfderatile fife: once exist( be Me so die utmost ef wry power while all eetredradt
fen the situsitiOn
you
Th of no English aed
_the /lids cub, llerstrpts wkwever wads aball be made west Ms Person allerns.
The English Catholics ate not at peseta adequate er Malty ;Amid IWIdo my aglow entleavair to -' - -
to bold certain offices to which the Irish Catholics are sad make knowaito his Majesty, his heins and immersers _
And
Ictandostdrtahcitemisi which
inim:y.rbe formed agalou
eligible, nor are capable of exercising the franchise. them. nisi
which
still
i the Irish Catholics possess. But I think no 00e fend, to die utmost of my faithfully
tbte succeetinensutfr:r.:,..
suppose that, if the Legislature should consider it which succesdon, by so Act entitled 6An Act fur the /other
fit to restore the Catholics of Leland to e•onal tation_of the Crown, and the lustier securing she rig is an/
rights, _ of the subject,' is, and stands, limited to th: Pub
they should turn round, and refuse the same privileges Wetness of Hanover, and the heirs of her body, t•. it's*.
to the Catholics of England. Ism also aware that the tants: anti, utterly renouncing and abjuring any Art,' e-
Act of Union with Scotland ma appear to Inca a- allegiance uuto any other person claiming or pre etitheff,.l .be
y f the Crown of these Beams. And Ido further declare
citate the Roman Catholics of that country from the
intrainihnarticle of myh faith, , and that I do nuance, triter.
fenjloyment of political power; but I think the good ,
or
any
suthrwatiry a
thr see eseentdrnenleated or deprived
not
feeling, I may say the ,good sense, of the House will
murdered by their subjects, or by any person vrhaartseever.
ot allow that Act to interfere so far as to leave that Idu not believe that the Pope of Rome.
them the only excluded-body in the empire. If it be 4° declare
ought; otroetnePrin,
ante, Prelate. Person, *ate, Or Patentee/4,1
consistent with the security of the Protestant establish•
riority.
or
pre
real temporal et dell jurist:Wel porn
went to restore equal rights to the Catholics of Ireland, or
it
would surely be hard to say that the same rights Ido swear that I wiU defend, tro the utimina !it mywl power, this
t
should not be restored to thole of Scotland, where the laws;dta of-the, property within tids Realm as eitabliwsked
least_danger, if any, can arise from Catholie power. In ibyntenrhet lann4wtowtsuidtbLet7rttbehtbi dpiseirel:;o7,ClidisaairvelTdoßst' andabrah:=lnYt.l
the first place, then, with respect t) the laws affecting acrd
exercise any privilege to wadi I IYorillnayr
the Roman Catholics, the general opinion is. that the never will
entitled to disturb or weaken the Protestant Religion or Protestant
penal code has been abolished, and that all those laws in this
ts
ilKingdom; and I do solemnly, in r
have ceased to exist. This is, however, not the case; or Grore""nrorres
they do still exist ; and, in this respect the measure ration :apd everys, ;arily,alidada"' that
I do
raal""
which I shall propose goes (tithe than any men-ore titis `lath without thereof,
in
the....l".itiain and..‘--..jordenary
evasion, egviv-..—, or .......... re
which has yet been subniitted to Ore ]louse. My object witatsoev'et " ally
;I'llis oath, I trust, w ill be considered suffi:ient
is to repeal the penal laws respecting property—to
onve
hesecurity.ai It may, perhaps, be object
place the Catholic proprietor upon vs same tooting aiissiplraessthime-penrgised
rot
them.
w"chs;:hs thkere arena:rill *the
with the Protestant. At pie tut a Roman Catholic a religion dues
possessing property is subject to the penal laws until he rtiecto- For my own part I oasider this a strongcarectuurnonntentlation
shall hate taken three oaths, which, as they are not re- se iuest'szyi
'There were several other articles which I omitted •-
: waswisich I did nut think applied to the present cat
quited at entrance on any office, are frequently omit-those Gentlemen
teal. What I propose is, that the Catholics and Plotes• were to legislate with usse:faatroarcatilhatu the
"clot faint was nut to be kept with heretics"—(e. Hear).
tants shall stand on an eq-ial tooting with regard to
the introduction of such climes as these would rather
propetty, and that the Catholics shall be permitted to the oath ; but, if it should be the prevalent
enjoy their property without being suSject to torte
tei r introduction would add force, I am ready to
the penal laws, as they at present are, in Cate the wishes of the House. lam anxious to conciliate an ~
the prescribed oaths are neglected. The next quest isms whatever dimple may be excited by the introduction
the present nteasute, I can assure the House that I propose I,
tion for our consideration is the admission of Cacho- thebr elinusittertfinemd r spirit of peace. This oath will be found to
lies to political power. It is impossible not to think
that the whole question with regard to political Lad Minket', and by the Rightwete proposed
..G by
Mt.
Grate
dated the measure. I think this oath sbouldembeleinthaen one e. P
power turns upon their admission to seats in Parliament.
every occasion, as It would be very desirable that there
Without that, concession of any other kind would be a
Etna %bet one oath to Ise taken' by all Roman Catholics.
mete nothing—the Catholic question would still remain
likewise be sulfite IttrecitPokalf this measure, Roman cab.
the same--the same cause .4 dissatisfaction and irrita-icli,
ties Would exist ; and if you do not grant them that, at present excluded, not-by die oath against trtansubstant
any further concessions would only afford them the the power
vested in Corgerations to administer tbe
instruments of struggling more efficiently to artiste at Prema
RaaacwYcA. lanbordiZeanilitmitT with the rineiple er t'
mlniurat74l n oftljubssticitedb!lilacisabteleetoliglitib °lke°
c°1111"1"
this their grand object. I consider it necessary to ex• the ad
t-nd this in the vet y first instance. To set the Cath-lic has been long a subject of complainrt, and I hilatvtle to ill
that their case was stronger in claiming this than claimy tag
question at rest, now and for ever, it would promote our
superior They ore now excluded from the slice of She
own ends tar do so. I propose, therefore, that Roman power. un of Justice. The principle
Catholic Peers, nod !Liman Catholics who shall here. Bill islicbas to in
themmakeelb eligible to all offivcieksharonwtcted
the Criminal Jurisprudence of she after be returned to Parliament, shall be qualified to sit
litary Offices, the House is aware that Roman Catholic.
number in Parlianiest—that there shall be no limitation in the
number to be returned—and that they shall take their present practicall
y enabled to kohl any rank except that
places on the same footing with Protestant Members. I highmat r.b
in
dicier: and asif tor the danger to be dreaded '-
very much doubt the policy, after Catholics shall have been ezPotietwedi as army,
InwverealreanaZ ibteemnuGtetSerals
visions. As to the Meter description of dvil dices I
"been declared eligible to sit in Parliament, of restricting
the
numbers
who
shall
so
sit,.
as
also
of
making
any that seine slifesuity gay arise oft that subject; but a .
as that when wwerbad
anvetdnetinnerminhw high ei w I
determined to admit Roman CatholicsCatholicsdistinction in the privileges which they shall enjoy. 1
doubt the policy of rest, icting the numbers, because I dossed, it would net be atdviadvisableadvisableto exclude them
consider it would be extremei, difficult to pot such a I very much doubt the principle .1 admitting ti
to power and Wafts which they
measure into prailice on' just and impattial grounds; r
bey ehestinati'll.' ple ,
and not leave it in
for, supposing the law was, that not mute than forty the t•to co trend their cervices;
Roman Catholics should sit in this House, could any leave thee* office, ibtem rewardPv t ,
heir
thing be more difficult than to apply that law if a greater excite their ambition, and that they shalt he al
was °•`" /11 the service iii. the Crown. I shall slow Prim's'
number were returned at a general election? Who
theie irkierptiOnS to the general
of rule of admissibility. r
to select the Members who etre to sit? Who to the
do s ew ei lc er I: trieu
gni% shall
bud
I r lid e '
select those whose elections were to be set aside on the mak tie! when connected
are those dices, which I have excepted by name. '.
ground of a greater number than were admissible halo.
the Lord Lieutenant, or Chief Governor of Ireland,
mg been retained ? But I ohject to such a regulation
on still hi.; her grounds. I think that, if thirty or forty intallinh tatalend.77p7onpodn:CrtreollilenatilavilmrentithaewlyKineverulatt°etatitilin
Roman Catt.olics were re. tit ned to Parliatitelit, and no ordin - eteuttaitrd
greater number allowed t.. be returned. that they would 'kW. Colleges, and Schools, for thole:rare
thinks are prevented Irons, being admitted to them—.
be wore dangerous to the erotestant establishment—bleb prevent Catholics exercising a die.
that, if there were no aiszh it ritation, they wtruld, in my wryer tialitiarotrdewstp
opinion, be mote likely to combine, to write amongst to the *rig al*
Church
—and
lildvingirsproo"reaeileto.
benTicill
themselves, and separate from their Protestant fellow- ot saY hinds lir cases where I
Member.—to form into a party for 'tie purpose, if which the rigat ot to
patronage is attacked, Hutt
wered to transfer that right of presentatioe
not of promoting a Catholic, at least of injuritig the shell he erheo
full pr pose to enact, under heavy -
Pr-testant, establishment. It is on ihoe grounds it i beeirslaw
whatever connected witliable Gtiloovlic ttnitnittaoul stet'
1 would oppose any restriction in the number of
the Crown on the appointment of any indie4lial tot,
Roman Catholic Members. 1 likewise object to any
distinction of privileges born their Pi 0. eat ant fel me Chervrelitneiinrhaettrns in Engiaed or Ireland. These
tisfactiun to the Protestants; they
low-Members. I have considered with great atten-
itiarorisheer.;_oirar,cet:rasa4.ure and inrvniinealtrre, of tnhe Prtiochesti
dm a pr..peaal whi-h was made by a Right lion. Pt lend
grounds, and do not in are
slightesttt degree
of mine-1 have admired the depth of thlught and re- 'Peak
principles upon which the Hie is founded—(Hear)
search displayed in it—and lam within to do my Ryht 1 haivLatated with sufficient intelligibility aid detail
Hon. Friend the fu lest justice, as lam sure he brought the with respect tear
it. ir di
the civilriere in
rights t• which Ito
it forward metely for the sake of conciliation ; not would be en:Oh- under t
omitted, I shad be happy to explain it at a any point
to satisfy any apprehensions rf his own mind, but w
Gentlemen have bad the Bill in their hands—Meer;
promote the attainment of o e grsat nbject he had in Lord
to
dltiU GEd with et to be Elective
N r wished to ask the Bie d n on.
view. But I confess Ido not see !ow a Unman CIA°• be Intended
'is mensbet could be compel eel to abs. tit himself on Mr. PEk:L Itivt mr n
tiintetisitt h a
iontoFl'
plat
the introduction of ce: Lain questions. I think it would tbulic Elestors cm the sameNo
and Cheers). I
g't hei
be vet y difficult to aseet tato what meatur ea pailful's', tore of ltel.nd—(Hear, hear, a
right to _expect a friendly disposition of Cathi—
referred to the Protestant church. The question might
ulaleruff—rhel have list/tight to Call f* the sante ail /sauce
be interwoven with many other matters. and, on the
granted the Rolat7autiradthtoibeilrithaelre iloy
tirgiatuf to
tti
other hand. there might be fileillitnef which materially Sir,
tem, object to some of the grounds; I again
referred to it, and on which Catholic Members might
right to expect more than any other of'his Majesty'
coatsive to y.-te, notwithstanding the letter of the law.
ilLi aziirh the
iveFranehise, Sir. is on ot e that import.oce,
If they was allowed to speak on the subject, and not to rgreatest caution—(Hear,
aution—LHea be nude—it r, hear). It is
to e, I think the danger wtiuld be nearly as great, as an earl,
thatsonic alteration
able and powerful man might urge %w sting arguments the improvement of the moral con ditiono the was
le
—it wee wrcessary for the greater smithy ul dot r
which would have great weight with the House, and
iiiiewsould afford additional security. .
then retire, and leave his party to suppo.t his measures. title:,of a vote
But mj great objection to chit Course is, because I con• the particular, to
eircruniatathncee all of thatawartimeeditattl.
eider it would be a departure from the first pi inciple of in. The friends of Ireland were
bad
ant shea,use--ibe abolition of seli,ious distinctions, grounds, and was exercised upon bad principles.
Instrument by which the aristocracy IP Ireland e.
--(Heat, hear.) I think it ti et at this stage of the pro- °IL; in
pose n
the
fsu d
country, and the freeholders were
teedi 110 to read the oath a hich I propose as a substitute for the
pa
for the oath now taken by Platestant+, and which &ferentt
presenttto erimttedfr, use franchise
that '
ii,niitne o the landlord gla."Li U:derittl
Roman Catholics shall be obliged to take. In the first is a
the Priest stepped Into deprive Ida of it altuurb,r,
place it would be a great relict to R swan Catholics, and fa vain at what had taken place to
I have no doubt a great satisfaction to many Plates- an aloossorhaanoye Louth,to
"and
tants, to repeal the oath against transubs antivtion— right to. see th'at the franchise :L nota"
to
ailirt
that
(Heal). This oath was, in tact, never intended ac a re- littistetelsollnes—(l.oodcbesrs). 1 wills In the
ligious test—it was never &meted against any doctrine laina: at illef "MUM in
grs altnictbcc distinct
cUscuant:onrtiebtbemy crdlitseltieti with
the Catholic 6i
—it was not applied in the reign of Queen Elisabeth—it
was introduced in the reign of Chas Its 11. when Ho- this point of view—whether theai precedent
altd
plt am
tlicipl°,
Man Catholics were excluded from Parliament, and whit catered the espresdon of popular opinion, t
was only meant and only used for the purposes of ez• the number a great improvement lit Ireland ? I" the s•
County. is some coqille,
elusion. When exclusion is to be abolished, then such the nouligambtb-rr ofof vvotrettersiti eaiscti:
as otith becomes useless; and I cannot but think it was while In others they are Afteeu thousand,Betlessatod In lw
numben voting in Ireland and those voting 1,, t"
worse than inconsistent- when the Catholic Bill was in- as seventeen thousand. If aco ben were drat
troduced is the year 1812-15, to propose that this oath
the found that
itlse numbers is Ireland implied no
should be retained for the Protestant Member, for the
wholatc:Fesvo property.
boa oak, Strnatibe House
ITO look
purpose of bringing him up to the table, hollowed by
the Roman Catholic Member, whose religion he warto ask if it can be necessary, On aouttuit:t of Dlgroe er i a "ft'
swear was idolatrous and damnable—(Hear). - 'she asaben of votes ellesiti "Ist far the P•r. -
locient oath of supremacy I propose to retain, to be still lout,_&t.:errs: electioni"of
the
"eels ?—(Letlea the tiles
'
taken by Protestant Members; and I hope that the time pined was *boot a.goow; for Iterkddro. gbeglialberber‘
will shortly come wbea even this distinction shall cease 2.750; fur Cumberland( ; for Devtitseerettire.
to exist, and Catholics, as well as Protestants, will come
_____,_Glantortrnahlre• 1,1154 i for lilithlPien,lo.ouo i ar-'
forward voluntatily to subscribe its that oath. This, bu=ll d seltinka The Teter" Sirs frees Irelands -
believe kaawcarenit In saying teat die member
xben, is the oath which I propose to be taken by Roman own- Rem 10,000 to 35,100. 1 begs"
Catholic Menthes., relieving them from taking the two tivaltdttie rdiT: to what has been dues wish re(
oaths of allegiance and abjuration,•and incorporating cblosi'aad if ever there •r“ • P••••4•11flot my'
a pretedect for the pretreat in anise times in which
like ewe in one. _
.._.-i- • raise was Sat introduced' I will only, Sir. tatted
a I.A. B. do declare that I profess die Raman MUM rashes." the Act of the sib of Henry VI. asd if I wanted
" 1, A.B. do sincerely promise sod swear that I will be faithful which. Legislature had foresees the
and heir tie, allegiance to ms Nolen Wag espy IV. 1011 wM aaawsre a .frawitles, It wed. be grded* likely
ftlel4

•
• 1 '
- 1
. • ' .
. .
•
rintspersekll64 • i
Persollif erosive.
to theclom and ,
are, all imam •
against him et
uppon, and de. •
to the Crown,
he /tether Neilb
isles and liber.
Nilo
aphis,
r, to • roteM ' i
1.0,1'. sr . t
sal* i . be to •
ochre that if le
.'ricer, and ab.
leprived by the
be deposed err .
mever. And I
111;
Rome. Or any 1
tenets, bath, Sr
1, power. sap•
bin Chia IL elm. ..
•
power, the set.
isblisheil by the
!rely abjure any .
stunt, as settled
y swear that I - -
or may heroine •
on or Protestant '
eh. the presence. • • e ,
make this deda. •
rdinary sense or •
mai reser/ado* 4
cient security',
'objected that it 1 •
tel other sedates
ell upon they to
•
recommentlailan
:"
I omitted as en. 4. • '•
present case. I ill .
Gentlemen who 'i "3
tett the doctrine $,
lear). I thought •
ober weaken the
lent opinion that . 1 i
to cemply with
date all pocks;
.1 .....
e introductioe 4
at I propose it Is •
e found to differ
Mr. Grattan, by iii
in who last intro.
a one adopted on
'1
it there should he
elegies. In con.
tan Catholics will •
in which they are
,übstantiation, b 4
r the Oath of Si.
le of the measures.. •
es connected with
to all those Aces
always considered
claiming political
re of Sheriff, and
to principle of this ... • 1
es conreated with • $
ith respect to Mi. tt , 4
t Catholics are at
opt that of Corn-
aded from holding
must already have
a Generals or IN.
ices I am aware II
I
; but I apprrben4 . •.
•
i Catholics to Par. • ..
deli I have men. I :
them from these ..
g clue% to populae
they. are to bold
tin the power ed ' •
aose, th retort, te - . •
their services, not •
be el•glble to des i
puma. d to C.lndder
.1
ay. I propose that
be in reference to
ed Church. Veers - t
ie. Tits y are awes t ..
Is
land, and the Lerd
• of the Great Seal e
lee all local statutes, • ' 1.1
ahlehed to Univ.,. .
, and by elect' C... t,
ibena—l propose to .
rig a divet influence , ' t
enact, with respect •
tactical pretereients I
:a hold property to
ed, that the Crowe
resentatiou to other
eavy penalties, that 1
ay situation or elliee •
a offer any advice to 1:
tai to preferments is
These exceptions are •
I; they ire eft cemary
he larlitestant Keret). s
is which rest impair
degree invade the
ear) Sir, I believe i,
detail the outline of ' ,
ch Roman C.thoNce . • • .
point which I have ,
ore time, whets Hog.
:lieu).
dom. Secretary what : t
Franchise? • .
plate It men Ca- ,
the l'roic•tant Eke. . !
I say. Sir, I have a 4
atbi•ltcs Inward. this
'Segni:cc bunt them
eto obj.ct. I have,
if his petition. He •
again say. he has se
jesty's subjects. The
Mat, that I arroaiii
It is absolutely wee. . )
t was BUCtfllarliat ; '
a people of Ir
the intreentous 9eipo.. • •
. A 11.11 w.s bone I.: I:
vote t but evrlfic as
i was not persevered
at It now .nerd epee i
principles. It w•is
eland ezercieed their. ,
were seeerady made
It was altaqa)bei ' •
ler the frastriswe, ve
Hord was garalyseti, . 1
t altuswh.t. It we.
Pam in the rootlike
n that we had DOI D .
14'413111s reason Ilk.
the Grit immure, Stito
Intact frost ',None,
*lie Glletiien. IWIli
ineiple, and arse( he • ;
• lii
am about to proper,
in, nr whether it wial '
o the first place, sato
e counties in Ireland
us thirteen thousand,
in some even as kith 1
re draws between the
io begland, it would
I DO adequate propene
look at Ilse situnecr•
Ireland, and 1 elm
.
t
Ineogitirc.lfeberut.flyill'aniwpestreaseituntbataii:dellii",sbetellftle;nr;,...
,0e0; and fur West.. ili -01
•eimatl, are imperfect.
member of vesterkie
• • i 1,
begs. call the maw
6 regard to this from tit
measure,
sty there 4' •
s width the 1014wai.
take the prearabk Of
noted an IMAM* 114
dy to
by the accuse hem fig .11
se ream* 41
1
. . i
. _

.

_ .
"k• , ;Ad ffirtiNhesibosse<The ill*. Ron. Gentleman then read an
t':*•-• estrae **ark, ,Whish stated, thet • tbotigh the/numbers
;•** -- :id (Ilk • iliiie redUeed. yet they Were of much more
t**.trisoiitieratiess. and that the raising of 'the franchise had tended to
• taffeta the power of the Lords, and -cif the great menwbo bad the
'' i people tinder their power, by edvanting • the freeholders; end ren.
-. dewing there care-independent). It thus appeared that iffetran.
••' ehisehad been iMptoved by tithing it. and /think that tHeitreamble
of tisevAdlarid elpedeseripride of ht effects, are exceedbigly'appro..
• •edriatentibepleillit period. 'I promtik, Sir, to raise'tbe'reipeeta-
)i* offlse,thsedik bid the effect lit the'/NHI am bout /5 intro-
' • duet ,tolgi be to giti.anitidepeoljent eimstitheney to Irelthr Ido
;Pot repose it' for t lableurposiof tritffnialiftig the ta thofie itivier—
ktife• not offultiacheelt **Cathode Ydwer.7-but I do itelf6fiarrill
•'' nrinisk thi contrail, of thet riesdketd—( Heir, liesr).". Flt 're the
.Boucle chines to a decision hpon this Intitertant question;` fintretat
". that Gentlemen will teed the Lorldeitee taken behove the able of
. Lords lend Commute upon than subjfet. .1* Wipe that sleety man,
Whether fur or egiinstthe Cathodes: Whether a layman oven cede.
.• .aftie, wiN istidthat eeldence, and lam sure they must kgife With
In/ that tisMetievie Stench concurrent testimony
.afforded'Of the
• evils of any meteor* as there is of the evils of the elective franeitlse.
The franehile in Ireland waewholly different from that of England.
. In, England the franchise watt held - for life,. but *llt it was riot ad-
Itlsallle to accommodate the practice its Ireland to that in Ragland,
• fot•it would hes.,Weiblest and sodden altetatith of the kw; 'and
therefore it wonld. be very advisable to avoid ,It 'in the evidence
defies the Haase-various- opipluns were given tia to the'iltsbnot
• -. in which the elective Encabo should br ralied i Sabi state
▪ stated that it shoold tweaked to twenty pounds in order 'upstart a
. I)Wpectable coostiteunt. bet for my owe part, I tisk* due so via,
but an alteration of the law, and as there is an intermediate auto
~-;:hOween 41 and sOl. 4am inclined to be satisfied with LW.--
• (blear) ) it would be eery difficult to estimate the numbers.-that
•;.w4silci lie entitled to vote under this alteration, but doubtless they
• • . wistalei be very considerable. The number of 501. and 201. regis-
.N. . tarred freeholders afford no hidieatioa of the numbers—but they
• • .: should eersakily be very. considerable. • I should propose, in the
... first place, that the determination of a freehold should oet depend
. - : on the o .th of the voter; for nothing can be so objectionable• as
• etc. iystrin of leaving the right of voting to the oath of the voter,
...kir k bolds nut a. temptstion, and I fear.has too often lecl to the
- commission of .perjury. Every man must have his freehold registered
•.. tei entitle him to his franeldse—(!teary hear, bear). I may be told
• • .IEO the toe. freeholders would rather remain in posseaslon of the
• • linheinary privilege annexed to freehold, than accept Emancipation
opt these-teems But I contend that a man • whe•holds k lease for
a •term of years has no power of granting a freehold. , The prin-
.. elpie will go far to remedy the evil. . I propose passing a pen, by
•.r, a day will be filed, and due notice given, when an oppor-
. i itrwtit be afforded for registering lietufide 101. freeholders.--
-with this advantage% that the right to vote will be inimedlate. By
• 411,10toOni mode, the right to.prote does not aecree until twelve ,
• lthisolwaker the registry. The mode of ascertaining the existence ;
• . hf •the freehold is ,of the utmost- importaneepaniely, the mini-
*Man of the tribunal by which it is to be decided. • Every
•• frith, ,and many English Gentlemen know that the' Assistant
-..! &Winer of Irish counties is .an Officer who discharges, his
••• deli .24,41 efficaciously. • I propose that the registry of freeholders
.. ,*phlitthetialien heron- that offices. that he shall inquire whether the.
' • rit Olefins the register is-possessed of a bona fide freehold.—
. Maybe said that thiswill be repodog too great a amfidence in
. I„.lndlerideal ; but I *teepees rwo means as a check against his
• be ens Will he by an appeal to a Jury, U the Assistant
, rimer aktwhf feline -to register no account of the value of the
• ' freekoki.the queuing to be'referred to a Jury—(Hear. hear.)ear).
-AePtersibt it may he enough for me to state the gtheral principle,
.• . .bisr-1 Onus( bored to interfere with the tenure of land in Ireland.
• I* bore no .54r:sties in saying, that it would prove a better
••'.'intele el regitiatieg freehold sod fee•siniple. than any.. other
" that can be' devaied. At, the *ante . time. .1, do out /repent, to
•••• tarred :ibis principle. ter she Elective • •Feattehisie eserciard in
apaperaie esteem. " DV" if it were passible to tent the rights-of.Cor•
• ' poratiens twnsakesent tandem Ireemen,it would Iles groat lire.
Ittivorreent. llowiver. it may not be advisable to interfere With
ate rights at prelim. ldo not, theteferre; propose g.ee.
liort of the great meature,-but.['COPeerre that it would be ea ha-
ppy, Mont of the elective fraftehiseLin laying the founslatiou of A
latlemndent
.yeomansy in Ireland.:. Nest /bat because the tog fru"
" holders In the Seals of Ireland may happen to be Catholics, bet
because it will place all ;mon all aerial, and, .0 I euneskto. an
• Aquitable footing—real property being. by this mode, more. kilt
ftPretented—(ilear, hear, hear).. If I am asked what remains.
- setiMt I 11111'W *IVA theitaly-ibilling freeholders for the .surrese
• Pleir..of this privilege. I woad. tell *put that they will be robed
lat. tbe-eujoyntent. Of these taffeta. which are objects *of their apt-
' ~-a(k)in. and which they claim as their right. I know that 1
• • • .11.:ii• to esestthd with strung Protestant feeling; bet 1 tell you
• theleyoie will nut be overborne by the operation of this measure—
• • (M•ws).• • The, remaining branch to which I have to anode is
•vavin.settleslastical securities. This is a topic which I approach
• twit feelings. otgreat difficulty. I My- be asked in what light do
POPOIIIe. to *lnside' the Church of Rome? Do you propose to
dt
' • puma ft with the State, or let it mouth In the ekuation of
. other. Disseeting Churches? I atn.poe at all Insensible as to the ad..
%satyrs to be derived from making provislea for the Boman Ca.
• .itiotte teekidastl,-4(Hear. hear, hear). -Lord Castlereagh. and
Many 'Mises' very .high authorities, entertained that amanita.—
. ..INlk.dffilli that it would be something revolting to the indeyen-
" Sheiscriod high character of this country, fifths King of Ragland
worse Mk approach the Church of Monte, or any other Foreign Court,
• bloom upon what terms he was to treat with his own subjects—
• (Tr. issesulays cheetinh). It would be nothing less dun a recognition
'of that power tointerfere with the Governoseot at Constitution of
this poutry—(COntinued cheering). If you ask what ecclesiastical
securities they have, I say that they have none. I propose that the
ROanan Cathode faith should be placed., nut no the footing of
toadfish:nests, bat'oo the same (acting as all other classes of Ds-
' /paters. There are some changes whill: should not-consider it
pilitle tteintroduce, tied among them proposition which has
been ',laded attaching a veto to the Crown. that has been the
Jecurce of protracted discussion ; that.' think, Sir, would be a very
Inenteriderable power. My objection to the veto is, that it would be
tl4 eonoreneernent of to establishment—(Hear); I contend that
, the nornittatide fathom Reverend Prelates would be the commence-
. wient ot an establishmetit Which it would be better to avoid. I
- think it better to take no securities than Intake those which will be
iitlfvetual• it would he imposiog a responsibility on the Crown
Whhout investing it with any power. With respect to an intercourse
. .Wbb the See of Rome, Ido know that there *ill be any. °hire-
o lien. On the part of that.Court,though I confess I have no inclination
to •I du nut roneeive any great advantage will be derived hum
that totirse. The greatestedeantage that will be derived from the
• • se tlemeot and tlesayemoval of the Catholic disabilities is, that we
- • shall be enabled to Make any securities thought requisite afteettsat
sdttkment; to legislate for them as we legislate for any collet Sect.
I %beak, howeeer,rhat it will be wise,when Catholics are admitted
to OHO and corporate-aces, that the insignia of office shall
unit bst ethibited •in any other place than the It•tabli.ked Church.
I.atiould also wish that thPßoman Catholic Bishops of Ireland
shoild Dot assume the titles and privileges of Protestant Bishops.
we Bisbope.to all intents akd purposes; their Utica are valid
-. as of' the Ratablished Church. There is a polo' which I
wish to idled* th with respect to a Sot'.-ty which has excited
suiiidon in this minntry. I allude to she order of Jesuirs—( Hear,
. heir). Fa the seehrity of the country I =wider that their num-
gen might to be !Worn, and precision will be made in the Bill for
. their mindiers to be registered A provision shall be made to pre.
mitt thk libreetritted irruption into this cookie of so order at
• via against wham all other conatties Wee set their faces,-of
We kiwe's tight .to take securities aphid the intentions of dwell
Muslims • as they owe po ailegianee to any wale in this country.l
dna rural to nits pimMOrs I shall propow a Collunkfor Is
which so =bye Reillia era.Tobkli it le intended shall be the loan
dation et a 11111. in *high I shall mate these regulations. After
• trek Isbell move to bring in another Bill,•the object of which via
be`the regulation of the elective franchise. I beseech you calmly
yid dlspassioutely to* etinsider this question. Let us all hear in
tatted what the constitifinwe will be if this question is nor settled—
(Hear:hear). • I doom pretend to say that specious end even so.
lid filtjectiemi you toot be rldsed to this measure, bet k is very easy
for that to he the case with any re. We never shall be able
inlaid it possible to settle the Cssioiie miestims if every Man is
deterisibied to the cornices in his own Way. COD grant thati
• she espeetstions Ef these Members who hate advodited.this opus.'
ton for years may be fulfilled to the letter ! Goo giant that the
I Iretnterat ot these disabilities may produce the moat perfect amity
he coat phet of this empire, that instead of looking at each other
With imiousy, we may mingle In the union which if desirable In
every Free Statiff—l bare, Sir, consulted for the best for the Pro.
tedlant laterests. • Ibis is my defener--.this is my enusobeiuti--and
this is lay isminge--(tioar. hear, and craned's' cheering. Welch
laded oweeol nituutes). 111 have disappointed the hopes and exa
gettatimis of uvr tan,' I hoe acted as I 'thought for the hut—
. .s. • t.
• .. .
•

~~---

6.,

•
•
an. Gentleman then read the preamble of
n the election of the Knights of the
• 1 . „)17..•committed. owing to the excemive
`P" being oftlinpil aitbatancleind of no
6:1 tenenaing tltaithel lavc the same
"r g'" \ 4 tut consideration. Alio -that many
'l' -0 ' :111r at nevenbelest taken place, atl4 _that
-reef' ;4*---- red ammtg Me gentry ; and the Act then
• •- 'll3 r 'nn' person Ihould vote unless they pm'
..lestudit2treebeld#4oi. Sir; I bays an account from a high autlto
"I' d'tbe Am produced from thla Act, whlch is so very sublime,
4.l":koittlipirt don *iv... OD the patience of the House while I read
‘4‘ • j
1M 1114
on tile Laws of England, written by Mr. Bacon,
1114 John BeWast. • He WaS a ftiend to popular-righta,
,h.n Mast an