Star.
London, England, 1821-04-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

A new Writ was ordered to be issued for the election of a
Burgess to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Orford, in
the room of J. DOUGLAS, Esq. who had accepted the Chiltern
Hundreds.

Mr. S. WHITBREAD presented a Petition, praying for
Parliamentary Reform, from certain Freeholders of the County
of Middlesex.

blr. Serjeant ONSLOW brought in his Bill for repealing the
Usury Laws.
Mr. DAVENPORT expressed his intention of opposing
the Bill.

After a few words from Sir R. Helton, Mr. Serjeant ONsi.ow,
and Mr. Baanoi, the Bill was read a first time, and ordered for
a second reading on the 14th of May.
General HART presented a Petition from certain Inhabit-
ants of the County of Donegal, praying for the licensing of small
stills, as being the only means of providing a market for their
corn, and relieving the distress under which they laboured.—
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR gave notice of a motion for Wednes-
day, the :,oth May, to take into consideration the mode of admi-
nistering the Laws in the Hist/ Court of Chancery in England,
and also the regulation of the proceedings in cases of Appeal.
Mr. T. WILSON moved for a Return of all Importations of
Hides and other produce from Russia within the last year.—
Ordered.

Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from the Merchants and
others of the Town of Hull, praying for a repeal of the Wool
Tax. Ile would not go into the question at present, ai•the ap-
proaching motion of a Noble Friend of his for repealing the
T.sx, would give him a more fit opportunity for doing so. He
considered the Tax to be injurious to all parties.
Mr. LAMBTON presented a Petition from certain inhabi-
tants of the Town of Belfast, in Ireland, stating that a general
impression, most injurious to the character of the House pre-
vailed among the people in consequence of the faulty state of the
Representation. As an instance of the undue manner in which
Members were returned, they said that the Corporation of their
own town, in which body twelve individuals claimed all autho-
rity to thews:Nes, sent a Noble Lord to the House contrary to
the wishes of the inhabitants. They prayed for Reform, and
the restoration of the Queen to all her rights and privileges. The
Hon. Member proceeded to state, that the Mayor had declined
calling the Meeting at which the Petition was agreed to. He
than went on to comment generally on the grievances of Ireland,
and adverting to the indifference with which, he said, the Peti-
tions of the people were treated, he expressed his hope that the
lkht Hon. Gentleman in the Chair would address the House
on the necessity of more attention being paid to the sentiments
of the people constitutionally declared. He thought that such
an address wouldslse attended with very good effect.
Mr. CHICII ESTER said that the Petition was adopted at a
Meeting held at a small Methodist Chapel In the suburbs of
the town, at the same time whets an Address was agreed upon
to the Queen. Ile was confident, from his knowledge of those
inhabitants of Belfast who were conspicuous for property, edu•
cation, and general respectability, that the Petition did not speak
the opinions of that town.
Mr. LA MwroN read an account of the Meeting from a Bel-
fast Newspaper, and said that it was held in consequence of a
Requisition signed by 100 of the Merchants and Shopkeepers of
the town.

Mr. CHICHESTER disclaimed having reflected upon the
characters of the Petitioners ; he meant to say that they were
not persons who expressed the general sense of the most re-
spectable inhabitants of Belfast.
The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition from certain Merchants
of London trading to Canada, against the Duties imposed by the
Bills now passing the Legislature, upon the Timber of that coun-
try. The Petitioners furth•:r complained of the Duties upon
Canadian Corn, and prayed that alt.!rations might be made so as
to.allow of the importation of that Corn without restrictions. If
this were not done, to what a note must these Colonies be re-
duced. Their entire ruin must be the consequence, as, by the
laws of navigation, their produce could not be imported into any
other countries.

hit ISAAC COFFIN contended that it was impolitic tcfrc-

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Min the Canadas, at they must always be attended with Bunch
greater expense than advantage to this country.
Lord MILTON thought, that in due respect to the House,.
some one or other of the Ministers. hught to have been in the
House at an earlier period of the eiening. Ile expressed his
anxiety for the Report of the Committee upon A,grictilture noy,
sitting up stairs. He wished that the subjects submitted to that
Committee should be reported upon separately, as they came
under its consideration. If this were not done, he very much
feared that the House would have no Report until very Lite in
the Session. He wished to inquire whether such Was the inter.
don of the Committee?

Mr. GOOCH said, that all ,Chairman cf the Agricultur3l
Committee, he could not at present say, as the Committee had
come to no decision, at what time their Report could be made•.
It was his belief, however, that it might be soon after the Easter
Holidays.
Mr. MARRY ATT agreed with what had fallen from his
Hon. Friend (Mr. FJlice), as to the restrictions laid upon Cana-
dian Corn, and said that the subject ought to be taken into the
consideration of the House as soon as possible.
Mr. G. BENNETT spoke against the prayer of the Petition.
He called upon Country Gentlemen nut to be so besotted and
stupid as to be led by the nose by a set of Merchants who c.tme
down to that House with these Petitions, and endeavoured to
persuade it to impose a tax of .C4oo,tm upon the country.
Mr. MAILRYATI' disclaimed having any interest in the
timber trade of Canada.

Mr. ELLICE, after the Petition was read, moved tint it be
referred to the Agricultural Committee.
Sir E. ENATCIIBULL suggested that the Petition might'
delay the Committee to the great inconvenience of the parties
whose interests were under its consideration.

After a few words from Mr. Ecucc, the Petition was referred
to the Committee.

Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW moved the second reading of the
Attorney and Solicitors' Admission Bill. The Bill was read a
second time, and ordered to be committed on the 4th of May.
The Regulation of Acceptances to Bills of Exchequer Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the
4th of May.
Sir THOMAS BA RING wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), whether Mr. Ser-
jeant Praed was about to retire from his situation as head of the
Audit Office, and whether any appointment in his stead had
been made, or was in contemplation ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the
Gentleman alluded to by the Honourable Member had resigned
his situation. He was rot aware of any appointment having
been matte.

TIMBER DUTIES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself
into a Committee on the Timber Duties Bill.

Mr. J. P. GRANT rose to propose an Amendment
to the motion. His object was to more for a Select.
Committee, with the view that the subject might be
reconsidered in all its details. The proposition for
the House to decide upon was, whether a sum, far
exceeding £600,000, was to be taken out of the
pockets of the Public, for no public advantage what-
' ever. The measure now proposed, would compel
the purchaser to go to a dear market for timber of an
inferior quality ; whereas excellent timber might be
bought infinitely cheaper elsewhere. He looked
upon the timber trade as one of great importance--
there was nothing into which that article did not
enter, from the palace of the Noble to the hut of
the peasant. Numerous Petitions had been presented
to the House, all of which complained that the re-
strictions upon trade were at the bottom of the dis-
tresses of the country : and he would assert, that no-
thing could result from those laws but a violation
of every principle of political economy—of every
just principle of commercial regulation. All the evi-
dence they had before them, agreed that the timber
produced no benefits to the Proprietor ; the value of
an acre of land (in Canada) being only from one to
two dollars; so that the whole value of an acre of
timber fluctuated from 45.6 d. to 9s.—consequently the
produce was of little consequence to the lord of the soil.
The difference on the importation of '200,000 loads
of timber from Canada or Norway, would be exactly
£350,000, and this the Right Honourable Gentle-
man proposed to give up, for to that did it amount.
What, he asked, would be said to that? What would
be said to contributing £160,000 annually to Russia,
because we prefer her to Norway ? What had Nor-
way or Russia done to entitle the latter to that pre-
ference—that £160,000 should be paid out of the
pockets of this country to Russia? Ile would now
come to the question of the Shipping Interest. Could
any man say there was good policy in, forcing into
employment a greater portion of shipping than could
Ibe always maintained in it? He would say it were
better those old transports engaged in the timber
trade, and which were unfit for any other, should
be broken up, or sunk, than that the shipping should
be dereased beyond its natural quantity. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman again contended against the
proposed sacrifice of £160,000 a-year to Russia, and
of £460,000 per annum to Canada—this would have
the effect of making the country pay 50 per cent.
more for Russiaji and Plussian timber than for that
of Norway, thus paying £600,000 per annum, over
and above its other heavy taxes. To the Russian,
Prussian, and Norway Gentlemen amicably arrang-
ing their profits, he had no other objection than that
we were to pay them—( Hear). The Honourable
Gentleman concluded by moving, that the House
should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole
House, to consider further the Duties on Timber. .
The SPEAK ER put the question, on which,
Mr. WALLACE rose and said, he rejoiced in an
opportunity of saying a few words upon the proposi-
tion which he had originated. Notwithstanding all
that had been said, he did not feel himself bound to
consider merely the interests of the consumer of
timber—he had other, and paramount interests to
consider. The Hon. Gentleman here entered into
some of the details of the former Report on the sub-
ject. With respect to the Shipping Interest, he hoped
it would always be (within certain limits) a part of
the policy of this country to protect it—(ffear, hear)
—and contended, that foreign vessels should not be
employed in preference to British, merely because the
former could be had a little cheaper, to the sacrifice
of the Shipping Interest, on which, in certain circum-
stances, occurrences and situations so much depended.
He admitted that the Hon. Gentleman might be right
on the item of £160,000 per annum, but he would
maintain that no loss accrued to the country therefrom,
and that the £450,000 given to the importers of North
American timber would be saved to the country, by
the spirit of competition which it would produce.—
The Honourable Gentleman entered into a compara-
tive view and statement .of prices of, and duties.on,
timber, since the year 1302, and contended for the
beneficial effects likely to be produced by protecting
duties, and of consequent competition. Having pro-
tected the producer hitherto, we were bound to con-
' tinue to protect him. He contended that the Honour-
able Gentleman's proposal to lay the duty upon cu-
bical contents would give a complete monopoly to
Norway, to the exclusion of other timber; it would
• raise the duty on the 13tter from £22 to .00, While

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it *oilid-rechtee that on 'l'citlrfti from Oei to 0141
thus making a difference of I:10 in the long hundred;
With respect to the Honourable Gentleman's
prcrpo-
sition, that we were first of all to raise ilia duty on
• Ole cuSical contents, forthe protection of the home
sawyerc, there was little conistency- itrpreferring it
to the interest of the colony. The Honourable
tleman did enough to violate his own principle, but
not enough to effectuate his pi opositior. If we had
an object in •protcct;ng sawyers, *nil that the people
ought to pay for that latrro,e, let ns do it ctsnsiitentlyl
but the number of persons employed in the saw-mills
of Scotland was very small—indeed, these were but
four mills in the country. and the greatest number of
men at present employed in any of them was
the greatest number never exceeded twelve. With
re4pect to the protecting duties, all the witnesses exa-
mined, save one, .;fated that not less dran thirty shil-
lings would be a protection, and that ant believed
twenty-five shillings would be sufficient.
Mr. W. SMITH thought that the details of this
subject should be settled in a Committee up stairs
before it was brought forward in that House for dis-
cussion. He concluded by giving his support to the
Amendment of his lion. Friend (Mr. Grant).
M A 111tYArl opposed the Amendment of
Mr. Grant, and spoke in favour of the original Motion.
Mr. ItICARDO declared his resolution to support
the Amendment.

Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS wished that some imme-
diate arrangement should take place which would
establish a competition between the trades of the two
differint qtiorters. lie differed from the views of his
Itight Hon. Friend (Mr. Wallace), and those of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite. He would
propose an Amendment in the Committee, the object
of which would be to produce an equal competition
between the two quarters alluded to.
Mr. GLADSTONE expressed his concurrence in
the view of this subject taken by the Committee up
stairs, and recommended the House to adopt the
principle which they suggested to the House to act
upon. He concluded by giving his assent to the
original Motion.
Mr. BENNETT would recommend the House to
receive with great caution, the advice of Gentlemen
immediately interested in the trade. The interest of
the consumer alone was never once attended to. He
dwelt for-some time on the impolicy and injustice of
keeping up a restrictive system, the object of which
was to put money into the pockets of the ship-owner s.
He considered that the real object of the Committee
was, whatever they might profess, to favour the Rus-
sian interest; and he believed that, if the People of
England were consulted upon the subject, the last in-
terest which they would be willing to countenance was
that of the canting, hypocritical, base, bloodthirsty,
and bloodstained Government of Russia!—(hear).
The Amendment was then put and negatt% ed; and
the original question being carried, the House resolved
itself into a Committee on the Bill.

Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS postponed to a future
occasion the Amendment, which he had stated he
would propose in the Committee.
The House having resumed—alter a few words
from Mr. BENNETT and Mr. WALLACE, the Report
was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
Mr. B. BATHURST, alluding to a notice of mo-
tion of an Honourable Member opposite, which stood
for Wednesday next, begged to suggest, that as some
information might be given on the subject, it would
be proper to postpone it.
Mr. BUXTON said, in consideration of the pro-
mised information, he would postpone his motion.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES.

The House went into a Committee of Supply.
Lord PALMERSTON moved that a sum not ex-
ceeding £5614 be granted to defray the expenses of
the Army Medical Board.
_ _ _ _

Colonel DAVIES did not think so large a grant ne-
cessary, and entered into some statements in order to
justify his opinion. Ile moved that the above sum
be reduced to the sum of 1:4414.

Lord PALMERSTON justified, by adverting to
various details of the duties of the Officers connected
with this department, the extent of the grant which
he proposed.
Mr. HUME moved an Amendment reducing the
sum, which was negatived, after a few words front
LOl'd PALMERSTON and Mr. BENNETT, and the ori-
ginal motion agreed to.
The next vote proposed was £10,517 18s. 9d. al:
lowance for Officers serving in Public Departments
in Ireland.

Mr. HUME complained of the great expense of
the Staff in Ireland, aid moved that the vote be re-
duced to 1:7,0(X). The was one item which he
thought particularly objectionable, it was that which
related to the Medical Staff in Iceland. Many of the
Medical Officers there, who received pensions, had
never-seen any service, and some of them had large
allowances from other public establiddnents.
Lord PALMERSTON said that the vote proposed
included a provision for a great number of personso
such as Clerks, Secretaries, &c. It was very true that
the principal Medical Officers on the Srhfr in Ireland
had not been on fin cign service, and the reason wasi
because there was a regulation exempting them from
the liability of leaving the country.
Sir H. PARNELL objected to the syfem upon
which the Medical Staff in Ireland was conducted.

Mr. BENNETT said, that the expense of the Medi.
cat Staff in Ireland was enormous. It was beyond
all limits of moderation. The Hon. Member then
proceeded to animadvert on the disposition which he
said prevailed among many Members of the House
to support any measure of the Minister, however in-
jurious to the interests of the People. The house of
Commons had entirely neglected its duty, while the
Ministers of the Crown evinced some inclination to
accede to the wishes of the numerous classes who
had petitioned the House for relief. A House of
Commons so neglecting its duty, was no longer a

blessing but a curse.
The CH AIRMAN here called the Hon. Member to
order, and expressed his hope that the lion. Member
would desist from observations which could not be
agreeable to the feelings of any Honourable Gentle-
man present.
Lord MILTON contended, that the question of
order did not depend on what was, or what was not
grateful to the feelings of any lion. Member.
Lord PALMERSTON then observed, that the in-
clination to retrenchment evinced by his Majesty's
Government was not the consequence of any exer-
tions made by the Hon. Member who had last ad.

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-.tiir

dressed the Committee, or of his Hon. coadjutor, the
Member for Aberdeen. The reductions now ;lade
• had long been in contemplation.
Mr. (ionnon and Lord PALme.annx said a few
words, alter which the Committee divided—.
For the Amendment • - - 4S.

Against it
laiot ity -

OD
-54

The next vote was £27,824, for the supply of me•
dicines, surgical instruments, &c. to the Army.
Colonel DAVIES objected to the vote as entirely
too large, and detailed various abuses in the mode
of supplying medicines. The Hon. Member con
dude,' by proposing an Amendment, reducing the
vote by £5OOO, thus making it £12,824.
Sir It. FERGUSON wished that the vote should
be deferred, till the whole of the charges for medi-
cine ss ere considered ix a Committee. He had strong
suspi:ions of the Opthalmic Institution, and he was
iipl.rced to consider it nothing better than a mere job.
He should now move that the Resolution be postponed.
Loid PALMERSTON maintained that no objec-
tiTm whatever could fatrly be made to the mode of
supplying Medicines; on thicontrary, they were fur-
nislied on terms peculiarly advantageous to the Pub.
lie, who, by a recelt reduction made by the Apothe.
caries' Company, had a saving of fifteen per cent.
Mr. HU.AE said, that a reduction of 15 per cent.
was a mere trifle, when it was known that drugs of
all descriptions had fallen at least 50 per cent. He
thought it expedient to postpone the Resolution. •
Lord PALMERSTON said, that this year, as com-
pared with the last, there would be a saving of C5OOO
in !he purchase of Medicines.
After re few words from Mr. J. P. GRANT, the
Committee divided, and the numbers were—

For the postponement
Against it - -
Majority

- 59
- 109
- -50

The Committee again divided, on the Amendment
of Col. DA yin, for reducing the amount of the vote.
Ayes
Noes

Majority - - - 52
A Resolution, voting £7OOO for the purchase of
Medicines for the Army in Ireland, was then agreed to.