Star.
London, England, 1811-04-06 00:00:00

cast were not likely to be argued in the ensuing term,
should make a specific motion on the subject, not
n.erely with a view :o the hardship of the CASE', but in
order a, propose•an alteration of the law, or perhaps
a r-ipeal of the Act under which Mr. De Young had
been convicted.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought those
who hal heard the ts;oble Lord must be led to ima-
gine that some improper delay had taken place.—
Viien the question was. put to him by the Noble Lord
som: time ago, the Courts were not sitting. It being
soh:equent to the last term, he (thc. Attorney-Gene-
ral) Lad thou replied, that the case remained to be
argued, and that he was ready to argue it when call-
ed ryon. He wished it to be observed that it was
impoisible for it to have been argued between that
time and this, there having been no opportunity since
_the one term being ended when the question was
Fut, and the next not begun wnen the subject was
again brought forward. lie was not aware the pro.
secution had been dropped, and expected the point
reserved, would he argued the ensuing term. While
,)it his lugs, the House would perhaps allow him to
reply to a ciiarge preferred against him some .ime
bctore by the N. ilde Lord, for dropping a prosecution
against a Mr. Collier for printing a.libel. He (the
Attorney-General) had now the satisfaction of saying
—satistacti•)n for himself, as it enabled him to repel
the charge, that he bad heard the next day, that Mr.
Collier had been tried at Lancashire, and convicted.
(Vicar, hear, liter. )
Lord FOLKSTONE observed, the statement of
the Learned Gentleman was irrelevant ; and was pro-
ceeding tr, offer sonic further remarks,,when
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
spoke to order. He was surprised to hear the Noble
Lord complain that the statement of nis Learned
riei:Ll was irrelevant, when the whole of what had
fallen from him was completely so, and when he was
proceeding to speak a second time, though he had no
right to a reply.
Lord FOLKSTONE said, his conduct was per-
fectly regular:
The SPEAKER remarked, the Noble Lord had
a right to ask a question, but not to make a second
speech.
A motion was then made, that the Estimates of the
Storekeeper-General's-Department should be referred
to the Committee of Supply.

On the question being put,
Lord FOLKSTONE said he had a right now to
say what the Right Hon. Gentleman refused to let
him say before on the former question.
The SPEAKER desired the Noble Lord to sit
down. It was not regular for a Member so to rise.
The House was to decide whether or not its laws
should be neglected.
Mr. WHITBREAD thought if it was not the law
of the House, it at least had been the practice, as he
instanced on one or two occasions. He gave it as his
opinion, that the Noble Lord was entitled to such an
indulgence from the practice of the House. He meant
no disrespect to the Speaker, but left it to him and
to the House to decide.
The SPEAKER replied the rule of the House was
one thing, its indulgence another. If it was their
pleasure, they could then indulge the Noble Lord. In
some instances such indulgence might be more incon-
venient titan in others.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would be very
sorry the Noble Lord should be refused an opportu-
silty of replying to any thing he hid said.
Lord FOLKSTONE did not intond to detain the
1-louse.—The Attorney• General bad said (as he had
done before), that he (Lord Folkstone) had charged
him (the Attorney-General) with having dropped the
prosecution instituted against Mr. Collier, and had
seemed to triumph over him on the occasion. He
(Lord Folkstone) denied having ever preferred such
a charge.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL assured the Noble
Lord, that if, on a fornh.r occasion, he (Lord Folk-
stone) had corrected the misapprehension on his part,
he (the Attorney-General) would not have brought
fni ward the subject on the present occasion ; but as
he did not correct hiin when he mentioned the cir-
cumstance before, he had no idea that he had misun-
derstood the Noble Lord.
The Estimates of the Storekeeper-General's De-
rtment were then ordered to be referred ; and the
HHouse immediately resolved itself into the Committee.
Mr. WHARTON moved, that there should be
granted, •
£3400 for the Civil Establishment of the Bahama Islands, in
addition to the salaries.
£.030 for the civil charges of the Bermudas.
To a question from Mr.I.VIIITBREAD, Mr. STEPHEIT
replied, that the Judges in the greater part of the old
Colonies were not piofessirzial men, but gentlemen
of the country, and serving without. salaries.
£1;00 for the Civil Est abiishrnent in Dominica.
£10,450 ha the Civil Establiahtnetst of the Province of Upper
Canada.
£12,965 for the Civil Eatablishment •f the Paatine* of Nora
Scotia.
£5,600 for that of the Province of Newllioureleit.
"..2,0n0 for that of the Island of Cape Breton.
.6:3,100 for that of Prince Edward's Island.
£:2,991 for that of Newfoundland.
l'w,oriu for the r.robahle amount of Bills expecte{ to be drawn
irons New South Wales in the year 1811.
TO a questiso from Mr. WHITDREAD as to the
ground upon which it was expected that hills to that
amount would be drawn, and far what ? Mr. WHAII-
TON replied, for supplies of provisions and other ne-
cessaries imported from China.
And a sum of £19,400, to defray the expeeces of the Store-
hei.per-Generars department.
l'he House then resumed, and the report was or-
dered to be received on Monday next.
CONSOLIDATID FUND.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
lave notice that on Monday, in the Committee of
,Lys and Means, he would move the Vote of the
of the Consolidated Fund.
On the motion of Mr. TIERNEY, the following pa-
pets were ordered to be laid before the House :
,lcc4unts of all the Sums paid into the Consolidated Fund,
• from the sth April, 1810, to the Stis April, 1811, dis:inguishing
• the sums rind is each quarter.
Arrears of the Property and Assessed Taxes outstanding on
the Ith April, 1811.
Account. of the Nett Receipts of the Permanent War Taxes
• from the sth April, 1310, to the 6th April. 1811; and
Accutunts of the Arrears of the Property and Assessed Taxes
collected in the last four years, ending April 5, 1811, distin-
guishing the assessment of each year fa England and Scotland.
PIMA.
Lord FOLKESTONE, in the absence of an
Ho-
Pourable Friend (Mr. Creevey), asked the Right
Honourable the President of the Board of Coatroul,

I

,when eettain mete relative to Ng evil affairs at
Madras, moved for last sessirtn, and the order for
Which was renewed in the ;resent sess ,n, would be
likely to be presented ?
Mr. DUNDAS replied, tlytt every requisite mea-
sure had been taken to expedite the return to the or-
order of the House, and that he had reason to think
that the papers would be very shortly produced to
the House.

RULLION REPORT.
Mr. HORNER, in consequence of an intimation
which had been given on a former night by an Hon.
Friend of his, that he would that night fix the time
for bringing forward the discussion on the Report of
the Bullion Committee, proposed, with the advice
and assistance of the House, to determine then the
time and the mode of bringing that question under the
consideration of the House. Though he had on a
former occasion stated it to be his intention to move
for leave to bring in a BO to repeal the restriction,
upon consulting some friends he found that they
thought it would he a more advisable mode in the
first instance to submit to a Committee of the whole
'House certain 12,solutions founded upon the Report
which had been made by the Bullion Committee last
Session. He underaood that it would be more con-
formable to the practice of Parliament, whether he
should proceed by Bill or by Resolution, to submit
'the propositions previously to a Committee of the
whole House. It was his intention in rising that
night, to fix the day on which he should submit his '
resolutions to the House in Committee; and unless
the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite should
have any objection to it, also to make it an order of
the day; that the House should resolve into such
Committee on the day he should fix. If any objec-
tion was felt to this course, it was not his wish at that
hour to go into any discussion of the question, and
he should content himself with giving notice of such
la motion for some future day. This was the mode
in which he meant to proceed. With respect to the
,time, he had to express his sincere regret that he had
'been himself the cause of a greater delay of the dis-
cussion of this question than he could have wished.
It was a subject upon which it was extremely desira-
ble that the House should come to some final decision
with as little delay as possible. But; however he
might have reason to regret the delay which had al-
ready taken place, he had the satisfaction to know
that from the postponement of the question hitherto,
nd great inconvenience to the public had ensued. The
evil-which existed depended,asthey all knew, upon tem-
porary causes, and it might therefore perhapshavebeen
desirable to allow some interval to elapse previous to
the discussion of the subject, in order to observe
how these temporary causes might or might not give
way to time, and consequently to ascertain what
those causes were which more especially called for
the attention of the House. When he had proposed
to fix his notice for the present evening, he had enter-
tained a hope that he should be able to bring forward
the question before the recess • and he had fixed on
that night as the earliest on which he could be able to
attend in his place. He felt how desirable it was to
have a full attendance upon such a question, and
many gentlemen of muesli more weight than himself
were of opinion that it ought not to be brought eat be-
fore the recess. He acceded to their opinions, and
should defer the consideration of the question till af-
ter the recess ; but at the same time was desirous to
bring it in as early as a full attendance could reason-
ably be expected. If there should be no objection to
the course he proposed, he should conclude with
moving, that the House should on Monday, the 29di
day of April, resolve itself into a Committee of the
whole House, to consider of the report of the Com-
mittee of last Session appointed to take into conside-
ration the high wice of Bullion.
On the question being put,
Mr. ROSE observed, that there could be but one
opinion in the House—that the most convenient way
of discussing this important question would be in a
Committee of the whole House. He was perfectly
aware that when the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
took up a question, there were nn means of compelling
him to proceed with it; yet, as the report had been so
long on the table of the House, he had no hesitation in
•saying, that it became the property of the House, and
it was competent to any other. Honourable Member
to take it up, and found any proposition. As, how-
ever, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been
Chairman of the Committee, he did not think it right
to take the matter out of his hands. It was now nine or
ten weeks since the Hon. and Learned Member gave
'notice o; the motion which be proposed to defer still
further. This was a subject upon which he felt much
impatience, and the public felt much impatience; and
it was the more to be regretted that any farther delay
should take place, as the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had been repeatedly urged, twice by himself
(Mr. Rose), to bring it forward. He thought, how-
ever, the Hon. Member might bring forward the dis-
cussion, it not next week, at least in the first week
after the recess—at all events, it was to be lamented
that as the report had been printed and circulated in
August last, the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man should have suffered so long a period of the
Session to elapse without bringing the matter before
the House.
Mr. HORNER trusted he should, after what bad
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, meet the in-
dulgence of the House in making a few observations,l
because nothing could be more to be regretted by
him than that the House should feel as the Right
Hon. Gentleman did. That Right Hon. Gentleman
was mistaken if he supposed that he was not prepared
on this night, or any other night, to enter into the
discussion. When the Right Hon. Gentleman talked
of the delay, he should have remembered that the,
Session had not opened for farther causes till the 11th
of February, and that it was not till some days after
that the Right Honourable Gentleman moved for a
collection of papers, which he thought necessary for
the discussion, but which to him (Mr. Horner) did i
not seem in any way whatever applicable to the ques-
tion. These papers had not been delivered when he
went to the country, and he consequently left orders
in the Vote Office that they should be sent to him into
tbs country. Some of them he did not receive till
isisiurival in town. ffis wish to have them sent to
him in the country arose from a desire, though be!
found it difficult to conceive how they could be'
brought to bear upon the question, to make himself
acquainted with all which the Right Honourable
-Gentleman might have to make use of in his
meats, in in order that lie might be Able ta meet the.dis.

-

.

enssion in a full and candid Mantle. 'the Right Her
nonrable Gentleman had said first that he repeatedly,
then he said, twice, pressed him to bring forward the
discussion. He could not call to mind either instance.
An Himourable Friend of his (Sir John Sinclair),
indeed, had asked him, in an early part of the Ses-
sion, when he meant to bring forward the question.
and it was probably to that occasion the Right Hon.
Gentleman alluded. As to the charge of the Right
Hon. Gentleman he mast throw himself upon, not the '
indulgence which upon many occasions he required,
but upon the justice of the House, whether it applied
to him. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman then, in
conceiving that ne hacrany backwardness in bringing
forward this disAission, suppose that he or any of
those 'Gentlemen- who last Session concurred in the
opinions contained in the Bullion Report, had since
seen reason to change their opinions ? Did he imagine
that any change had since taken place was cal-
culated to make them abscond from their opinions ?
In regard to what had since happened, he must ob-
serve, that the delay was of importance, inasmuch as
the circumstances which had occurred illustrated the
opinions previously entertained by him, to which he
reluctantly, at first, assented, but in which he entirely
concurred with the Committee. With respect to the
impatience of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could
not but look upon it with suspicion. When, on the
former occasion, the Right Hon. Gentleman was anal- ,
ous that the discussion should be brought on without
delay, he could not but be aware of the change in
the price of dollars which had since taken place. He
could not help, therefore, looking upon his present
impatience as probably arising from an expectation of
some such other consequences.
Mr. ROSE in explanation seated, that when he
moved for the papers, he declared, though he wished
to have them, he was ready to go to the discussion
Without them.
Mr. BARING thought it extremely desirable, that
some decision should be come to by the collected
wisdom of the House upon this important subject.—
He agreed, also, that it was to be wished, that the
discussion should come on with as little delay as pos-
sible. He hoped, however, that his Learned Friend
would either on this night or before the recess explain
to the House, the nature of the Resolutions which he
meant to propose in the Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
had been anticipated by the Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down, in the wish he had thrown
out as to the explanation of the nature and purport of
the resolutions to be proposed by the Honourable
Gentleman which it would be convenient far both sides
of the House to be possessed of previous to thediscus-
sion. He regretted the delay which had taken place,
for he had the best authority for stating, that the pro.
traction of this discussion had a most injurious effect
upon the public mind. He was of opinion, that,
whatever might be the decision of the House, it was
desirable that it should be speedy, because he thought
the report itself, and the agitation of this question,
had produced a greater degree of public mischief And
public calamity than any measure which he ever re-
membered.
The decision of the House, he was of
opinion, would be favourable, but at all events the
question ought to be set at rest. As the Honourable
Gentleman disclaimed any intention to go into the
discussion, he should avoid following him into those
topics which were touched upon by him, and which
were obviously a part of the subject. He agreed that
there was some advantage in the delay, as it afforded
greater time to collect materials for a correct deci-
sion ; but there was much mischief derived.from keep-
ing the public mind in suspence during this interval.
He could not, however, concur in the observation,
that any thing which had happened tended to con-
firm the opinions in the report. He agreed with his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Rose,) that this important
subject would be much more properly brought for-
ward in a Committee than in the House; and that if
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman could not
bring forward the question before the holidays, he
could not expect a full attendance of Members earlier
than the day he proposed.
Mr. TIERNEY agreed, that it would be desirable
that his Hon. and Learned Friend should give to the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and to theliouse,
an explanation of the substance of the Resolutions he!
meant to propose, before he should bring on the dis-
cussion. With respect to the charge of delay, he
thought his Right Honourable Friend had been hard-
ly used. The Right Honourable Gentleman, (Mr.
Rose) in stating that lie was ready to proceed to the
discussion before the papers he had moved for were
produced, shewed that he was so fond of discussion,
that he was ready to enter into it without understan-
ding the subject. With respect to the mischief said
to have been produced by the publication of the Re-
port, what else, he would ask, could have been ex-
pected but that the Committee would report their
opinions founded on the facts produced to them ?
When that Committee was appointed, it was the
opinion of the House that they should probe the
subject to the bottom. They had done so, and it
was no fault of theirs if any mischief resulted from
the publication of their report. The Right Honour-
able Gentleman opposite, (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) seemed to think that the decision to which
that House might come would quiet the public mind :
but he was mistaken. All the writers on his side had
not been able to put down the report, as was proved
by the heavy fire of pamphlets which had been kept
up for the last half-year. If it was desired that the
discussion should have taken place earlier, why had
not Parliament been assembled earlier ?* It was not
too much that the discussion should be deferred till
after the Recess. The Right Hon. Gentleman agreed
to the day, anticipating, no doubt, the glorious
triumph of the 29th of April. For himself, lie did
not think the decision would be as favourable as the
Right Hon. Gentleman supposed. The discussion
was important; and whatever way the House may
decide, the whole proceeding would be a credit to his •
Hon. and Learned Friend, who had taken up the
question. The motion was then put and agreed to.
BANK OF ENGLAND.-
Mr: HUSKISSON observed, that if the principle'
assumed in the Report, that the depreciation of our
currency must be tried by the relative value of gold ,
and silver was just, it was manife,i. :hat a deprecia-
tion had taken place, and chi: deprrci ition could 'ally
arise from an excess in the issees of the Bank. 'rise
Directors had, however, dehied the possibility of any
excess, because their advances were made only 0:1,
good bills or suflcient 'rnetcantile securities. Thli

• ~ 9

was the opinion on which those Gentlemen cnnterfled,
that there could not be Any excess in the circular-on
of their notes, so long AS they adhered to cos i. eel,. •
tinn. It was therefore necessary, he conceiv—i, nn.
der these circumstances, that the• House should he
furnished with an account of the actual amount of The
discounts of the Bank, in order fairly to try the just-
ness of their own ereiciele. It was most important
that the great p: by which the affairs of such a
Corporation as the Bank of England were conducted,
should be thoroughly examined. If the history of
:ill the Banks of discount of which he had heard,
spewed that they had all occasionally carried their
disconnts too far, and that this was the great dan-
ger to which all such establishments were exposed,
even when under the obligation of paying in specie,
it was surely justifiable in him to assume the poe,ibi-
lity of the Beak of E•igland having fali-n into the
same error, under the circumstances of dirinnished res-
traint and increased temptation. If this was possible,
it became the House to !scertain whether this was or
was not the case ? He wished to avoid entering into
the general question, and confine itimseit to the Luring
a ground for the production of the p per he should
move for. It was well lo.own that there had lately
been what was termed over-trading, to 4 very great
extent, and that among the veriety.of recent c-m-
-mercial speculations many had failed, and had been
attended with much indieidual calamity. It vas get
nerally believed, that wetly of those specailati mi.,
ginated in the new facilities of discount at the Bank.
There had been numerous instances of men rising
into sudden affluence and splendour, and falling hack
into bankruptcy and distress. This was a depar-
ture from the true character of commerce, and threat-
ened.alarming consequences. if there was any vi-
sible or supposed connection, between the state of
things and the conduct of the Runk, was not that
a ground for inquiry ? Sir Francis Baring, a great
practical authority, had said, he had known clerks,
whowith salaries of £lOO per annum, were in • h habit
of obtaining discounts to the amount of five and even
ten thousand pounds. He might quote the late Lord
Liverpool, in support of the evil to be derived from
the creation of factiti 415 capital; hut he was aware
this would be called the language of theorists, of men
so 'very wild and speculative as to dream that the re.
gumption of payment in cash at the Bank would be a
measure of expedience. It might be urged, that the
failure of the late commercial speculations was noe
thing more than a distemper. But did not
such distempers tend to produce exhaustion in the
body politic, and was not che drain of naticnal capi-
tal to be deplored, withdrawn from useful employe
ment, and lavished in prodigal and unsucceesful en-
terprize ? The paper be should move for had been
communicated to the Committee by the Governor
of the Bank,. under an injunction not to insert it
in the Report, and it had been since published in
one of the daily vehicles of iptelligence. A. pere
son had seen it on the table of a Director, and.
had surreptitiously communicated a copy. As it was, '
however, already before the public, he apprehended
there would be the less difficulty in consenting to the
object of his motion. It had been urged that such a
production would be prejudicial to the Bank. This
he could not understand ; neither could he believe
that it was any interference with their privateconcerns.
Could that be called a private concern which went
to alter the relative value of every description of pro.
perty in all its ramifications ? If he were to propose
to inquire into the principles which governed the Bank
in their particular discouluta that would be an impro.
per interference ; but when he asked only for a scale
of the proportion which the whole amount of dis-
counts at one period bore to the whole amount at
another, he did not see what fair objection could
be made. Without this paper they would in his opi.
nion go aftereall to the discussion-of the great ques-
tion in the dark. The paper lately presented to
the House from the Bank, by no means answered
the purpose he had in view. That paper contained
nathing more than an account of the sums advanced
at different periods by the Bank to Government,
on the application of the latter. But it was impossible
for the House to discover by this what the whole
amount of the Government securities now in the
hands of the Bank might be, or what the number of
Exchequer Bills which might have been bought by the
latter in the market.—( Hear, hear.)—lt was essential
to know not only how far they had gene in accom-
modating individuals, but what limits they had pre•
scribed to themselves in accommodating Government.
He must disclaim entertaining what he feared had
been imputed to him, any spirit of hostility to the
Bank, nor could he think that any such spirit was
evinced by a mere doubt of their infallibility. The
real enemies to the Bank were, he was convinced,
those who should advise them them to resist this mo..
tion, or who should attempt to persuade them in the
House that power and compulsion could ever supply
the place of confidence. The real enemies of the
Bank were those who taught them that there was no-
thing in the present state of paper currency to Merit
the interpositiorl of that House, or to require the vi-
gilance of the Legislature. The !tight Honourable
Gentleman then, after recapitulating his arguments,
and referring to the amount of individual suffering
and extensive distress, created by a growing deprecie
ation of the circulating medium, moved, . ,
That there be laid before the House a Comparative Scale a
the Amount of the Discounts of the Bank of England in Jaduary
1790, and in January 1811.
Mr. MANNING objected to the Motion, because
it was the first appeal to the House to interfere with
the Bank for the purpose of procuring a document,
He spoke simply as a private individual, and without
any authority whatever from the Directors. 'ibis
Motion would be most inconvenient, and it was not
necessary. The House, since the Restriction Bill,
received an annual account of the issues cf the Bank ;
and he did not deny that as hung as that Bill continued,
Parliament should look upon the Bank, not with a
jealous, but a watchtul eye. He denied that the
issues of the Bank were pushed for their profits; on
thecontrary,they were below the demand. I: mic'.t
surprise the Honourable Gen:leman to bear taint say
that he perfectty agreed with him, that the resit, of
the Bark to c•oh-peyrnetits would be a very des able
benefit; but when he cerfewd this, he dills red most
completely with him et . L') tee time thet return:
Taking into consideration the state • f our ceuntr) at
present, together with its imports, etc. to correne..eo
that retuto now would be litti. less di in. to tee %i.e.:.
ptilitual su cide. tie concludes: by opFos4 tiekznes