Star.
London, England, 1820-05-13 00:00:00

PETITION AGAINST THE CIVIL LIST BILL.

Lord SEFfON said, that he had been entrusted
with a Petition from about four hundred Merchants'
and Inhabitants of Liverpool, praying that before the
'Civil List Bill were passed into a law,' the House
would take into its most serious consideratioo the un-
exampled distresses of the People at large; that no
pensions should be granted by the Crown to Mem-
bers of Parliament, without disqualifying them for
seats in the House of Commons ; and that the fund
out of which those pensions were granted might in
future be clearly defined in its nature, and limited
in its amount. From an intimate friendship for and
connexion with many of the Gentlemen whose names
were subscribed to the Petition, he could assert that'
they were of the highest repectability ; and he was
sure that there was no class of his Majesty's subjects
more anxious than they were, that the real splendour
and dignity of the Crown should be maintained.
Mr. 13ENNErf said, that he also had a personal
knowledge of many of the individuals whose names
appeared at the bottom of the Petition. He gave
notice that he would propose a clause to be added to
the Civil List Bill, to disqualify persons holding pen-
sions under the Crown from sitting in the House of
Commens....-The Petition was received.

MILITARY AFFRAY AT OLDHAM.
Mr. HOBHULTSE presented a Petition, ahich he
said was signed by upwards of three thousand of the
inhabitants of Oldham, in Lancashire. The Peti-
tioners complained that they had been for soma time
past exposed to a series of outrages on the part of the
military quartered amongst them, and in the neigh-
bourhood. The Hon. Member stated, that,_betore
he agreed to present this Petition, he thought it his
duty to inquire whether the account contained in it
of the outrages in question was in any degree exag-
gerated, and so far as he was able to learn, he found
that everything it alleged was correct. He should
also state, that the Petition contained not a single
expression disrespectful to the House. It was neces-
sary to observe, that the inhabitants had been three
several times subjected to this abuse of military
authority—but that still, from certain suspicions
which they entertained that justice would be par-
' tially administered by the Civil Power there, they
preform)! going before the Commanding Officer, in
order to oLtain the removal of the offenders,. and it
vii IMP tl a 6011041.44cC of their suspicions

they thought it right and necessary to My their Com-
plaint berore the Hotise of Commons—{/Year, hear).
The Petitioners prayed that the House would take
into its consideration the propriety of diminishing
the Standing Army, and he believed that Oldham
was nut the only place where such a wish prevailed.
Mr. H. CLIVE wished to say a few words upon
this Petition. He believed, in the first place, that
the Petition was drawn up by a person well known,
in the district from whence it came—he meant the
person who conducted the Manchester Observer.—
The Petition very much overstated the facts, and
turned an affray into a riot on the part of the mili-
tary. The truth was, a few soldiers were together
in a public-house on the .24th of April, when the
King's birth-day was celebrated, and they heard
some other men who were in the same room give a
most improper toast, which they, or any one in his
Majesty's service could not but consider as an insult.
The following day they were in the same house, the
toast was repeated : the soldiers said they would not
put up with such insults, and some words passed in
consequence. The toast was—" May the skin of
every loyal man be torn from his back to maltit4tl
drum for the Reformers to beat to arms!"—(Hear,
hear I J—When this toast was given, there were
twenty other .men in the room, and five or six sol-
diers. The latter remonstrated upon the character '1
of the toast, and they were attacked, upon which
one got out at the window and cried out to some fel-
low soldiers in the street to come in and prevent their
comrades from being killed. Ten or fifteen soldiers
did get into the house, but not without breaking
through the pannels of the door, *hich was previ-
ously shut in order to keep them out. Blocs were
given and received on every side, and here the mat-
ter would have ended, but for some person in the
town, who wished to make more of the matter than
it deserved. Upon a representation to the Com-
manding Officer, he ordered the obnoxious men to
be removed from the town. It remained for him to
observe, that the Magistrates ordered an investiga.
tion into the whole of the affair, and as that was the
case, he hardly thought the House would think it
right to institute any inquiry into it—(Hear, hear!).
The question was then put by the SPEAKER,
and a strong disposition to reject the Petition was
manifested, upon which
_ _

Sir FRANtIS BURDETT rose for the purpose of
stating, that he thought it his duty to take the opi-
nion of the House upon the question. He would not
have troubled the House if he had not perceived a
disposition to reject the Petition, and that upon the
mere statement of the Hon. Gentleman opposite—a
statement which, most probably, originated with the
party interested, and which was so much at variance
with the evidence of the 1.',000 persons who had
signed the Petition—( Hear, hear).—The subject to
which it referred was one of a most serious nature;
and it was of the utmost importance, not only that
the Petition should be received, but that an inquiry
should be instituted into the facts—( Hear, hear ).
T 1 him, at least, the subject appeared to be of that
nature, that he hardly thought he would have done
his duty to the public if he did not endeavour to'im-
press upon the House the necessity of a full inquiry'
into the whole transaction. It was impossible for the
House to reject the 'Petition without knowing what
it contained--,(Hear, hear).—lt was manifest that
a defenceless portion of the community was attacked
by those who had arms. This was a matter of the
greatest importance, and he did not believe that the
ouse would venture to reject the Petition—(Hear).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that though he had good reason to doubt the facts
as stated in the Petition, ,still he was not, therefore,
disposed to reject it—(Hear, hear).—For his part he
would tecommend the Petition to be received—
(Hear, hear),—But, if any further proceedings were
to be taken, he would reserve to himself the right of
giving to theuk any opposition which he should think
proper—( Hear, hear).
Mr. BOOTLE WILBRAHAM wished the'Petition
to be received and inquired into, but for a reason
different from that which operated upon the Gentle-i
men at the other side of the House. He was con-
vinced that the more the allegations in the Petition
were canvassed, the more the falsehood of them
would be known—(Hear, hear).--He believed that
his Hon. Friend (the Under Secretary of State) re-
ported the facts correctly, and he wished first to see,
from the reading of the Petition, whether it was de-
serving of inquiry or not—( Hear, hear).
Mr. H. CLIVE hoped it would be recollected he
had observed that the House might not think it ne-
cessary to institute an inquiry, because an inquiry
was going on before the Magistrates.
Lord MILTON feared that some Members on the
other side of the House, who evinced a disposition to
reject the Petition, committed rather their passions
than their discretion. At present it was no matter
which of the two statements—that of the Petition-
rers, or that of the Hon. Gentleman opposite, was
correct. It was enough for the House to see that
the subject was of importance sufficient to require
investigation. He trusted that the Hon. Gentleman
opposite would investigate the subject farther than
the debates of the House, and that he would go into
a cool inquiry, which would shew the real merits of
the Petition—(Hcar, hear),
LThe Petition was then brought up and read.—
The Petitioners prayed for redress, in consequence
of a series of military outrages, to which they had
for some time been exposed. They entered into a
detail of the injuries a number of persons in Old-
ham had received limn the soldiery. One of them
had received a wound over his left eye, which *-
vented him from pursuing his usual avocations ; 'a
second person had received two wounds on his face
by the blow of a large kitchen poker ; and a third
had his ear cut off.
Mr. 11, WILBRAHAM believed that the Petition
would turn out to contain a false account of the facts.
At the same time it stated nothing which was not
within the reach of the House—(Flear, hear).
Lord MILTON.—If any grievance were found to
exist, surely that Honourable Member would admit
it ought to be remedied ?
Mr. 13. WILBRAHAM.—Yes, certainly.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, from every inquiry he had
made, he was able to assure the House, that the state-
merit of the Petition was rather under than over the
facts. The Petition stated, that only eighteen per-
sons suffered from the violence of the military on'
that occasion ; but he had leirned that no fewer than
shiny-fig e ?ersons were sufferers, With regard to the

. . . . toast,
the was aware of it, and he felt no doubt in
saying, that if it were seditious, the persons who Used
it, ought possibly to have been taken up, and treated •
in a summary way; But he w.ts convinced the
'House would find no falsehoods in the Petitiou, ,arid
that it would, don a future day, think it worthy of
consideration—(Hear, Hear).—Thi Petition wat
laid upon the table; and ordered to be printed.
SIR TIIOI4AS iiisLoP,
Mr. CANNING 1-:.id, Gentlemen would penbahly recollect;
that about melte nio:iths ago he moved the thanks of the House
to the Airqtdi of Hastings, Genend Sir Thom:is Hislop, ond
the Army under their command, for their achlevemerusin India:
The House, while it concurred in the general admiration arid .
applause which the conduct of that Army exited, made a re.
genre with nespeet to vie point—the proceeding which had been
adopted towards the Commander of a Fort in India, who was
put to death. He (Slr. Canning) then stated, that reference
would be made to the Authorities in India, and every diligence
would be used to procure the best information on the subject.
This had been carried into effect, and a number of Papers, con-
nected with the event in question, had been transmitted to thil
country. He should now move, " That there hr laid before .
this House copies of all Reports or Documents received siac
the 11th of February, 1819, from the Marquis of Hastings
~turd
General Sir Thomas }ILAN), relative to the capture of the eo:t
of Taisteir."—The motion was agreed to, and Mr. CANNUN imme-
diately brought up the Papers, which were ordered to be printed.
DISTRESS IN lIIRNLINGI7AM.
Mr. DUGDALE presented a Petition from the
Merchants, Manufacturers, and Traders, of Birming-
ham, in Public Meeting assembled, in which they
complained of the want of trade, and of suffering
under the most severe and unexampled elistress.--L
They did not expect that the House could afford to
that distress an immediate efficacious remedy ; but
they hoped that the House would institute an inquiry
into its cause. The Honourable Member believed
that the statement in this Petition was not in any way
exaggerated. He had information from various
sources of its truth, and he was convinced there never
was a case which required more the interposition of
Parliament. He trusted and hoped if, after consider
ration, it should be found ..flat any relief could be
admioistered, that relief and assistance should be
given as speedily as possible—(Hear, hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM said, the Petitioners had. re-
quested him to lend them his humble support on this
occasion. He could assure the House, that a mote
respectable body than these Petitioners did not exist
in the kingdom, The Petition came from no par-
ticular party ; it was signed by persons or every
side in politics—(Hear, /ear).—Though he v. ished
the House to hear the Petition, still be could Lot help
stating, that his opinion, which lie had more thaa
once expressed in that House, was unfavourable to
the prayer with which it concluded; and it was-so
unfavourable, not that he doubted the facts detailed,
not that he did not believe that distress was deep and
wickospreading over these Petitioners and the whole
community, but because he had an opinion deeply
rooted in his mind, that a parliamenfarl inquiry for
the purpose of probing the cause of their prevailing
distress, or for a revision of the commercial or as ricul.
tural systems, was not the best mode of assisting them.
—The only useful mode of treating them was in the
hands of his Majesty's Ministers, who,, from their su-
perior sources of information, could afford the only
real means of alleviating the evils complainedof.—.
He did not believe, from what they had already..
done, that the present Administration were very .
likely to inquire into,.or adopt the means .of regene.
rating the Commerce and Agricialture.of the court. .
try. Even if they had the best dispositions towards
such an inquiry, he did riot think, whatever confi.o
Bence they had elsewhere, that they possessed suffi-
cient .confidenee or-Weight in the country, to under,
take that revision with an effect likely to be attenfid
with success. He spoke this opinion from no factious.
view. His real opinion was, thatno one party in the
State was sufficiently powerful to form an Admini-
"stration, which the exigent state of the country re.
quired—( Hear, hear).
Mr. SPOONEIt said, that the questionc whether
or not any particular party was sufficiently powerful
to form an efficient Administration ? was one which
the present Petitioners never once thought about.—
They came forward, and applied to the I-louse in the
only way which they were authorised to •do by the
Constitution. He was sorry to hear the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman say it was of no use to have •
an inquiry instituted in that House. He would ,be
grieved if the country thought so too, In his opinion,
however, the Petitioners very properly looked ozithat
House for redress, and he hoped they would not be
disappointed. There were some facts connected with
the subject of the Petition, which he would take the
liberty of stating to the House, and, which went to
shew how much upon the increase was the general
distress in Birmingham and its manufacturing neigh-
bourhood: In 1816, the amount of the relief given
to the Poor, for the first four months, was 15857.
During the same number of months, in the,present
year, the amount of the relief given to the Poor was
4:10,840. if the House refleuted upon the difference
in the price of commodities then and now, they might
form a proper estimate of the increase of distress in
that quarter. The increase of that distress- would
further appear, from,the diminution of animal food;
and here he could- not but observe to those who were
for exclusively protecting the Agricultural Interests,
that those interests and the interests of the Mauls-
facturers were closely allied— (Hear, hear).
The number of hides sold in the district alluded to,
during the first four months of 1818, was 584.7 ;
during the first four months of the present year, the
number was only 2783. He hoped that this corn,
parative statement would shew the agricultoristst
that the manefacturers cannot purchase animal. food
unless they assist in furnishing them with the means
of doing so---(Hear, hear).Daring the first 'four
months of 1818, the number of sheep consumed was
11,479 ; during the same period of 1820, the num,
bet was 8,268. He would not trouble the: House at
present with' any dissertation on the carees of this
evil, or on what appeared-to him to be thomature.of •
the remedy which ought to be applied-to-it. Of this
he was sure, that if the House of Commons entered
into the investigation, into which he trusted" they
would enter, they would find that the remedy which
was applicable to the reduction•of.the distress iii the.
agricultural districts, tvould 'he 'thel,rettledy appli-
cable to the reduction of the distresakthe maqutac- •
Luring districts--(Hcarl hear);-4One more fast, jand -
he would have done. He hatthUt morning teceleoct_ .
a letter from Birmingham, from which he Would read
1
a passage to the House, premising, that he trusted
the House would do him the justice to believe, that •
he did not urge the circumstance therein stated as

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