Star.
London, England, 1829-03-18 00:00:00

'time for. My Hen. Friend has stated, in the came ,
of his speech, that the question before.tbe Hansel' not a .
political, but a mliffious question.. Sir, in all Oomph.
me its I have adduced in this House on the subject of
thil question I have never claimed to argue it as a reli-
gions question. I have stated it to be a question of how
}-, the character of the Roman Catholic religion went
.tc, wader us professor unfit to be admitted to poll
tirel -
privileges in a free Protestant community? 1
never argued it on any other ground than this—that,
considering the difficulty of the case, the state of the
country, and the divisions which existed every where,
there was nothing but a choice between two evils. And
certainly on former occasions I considered the evil of
exclusion to be less than that of admission; and if, Sir,
have•on the present occa+ion come to a different con-
clusiorr, it has certainly been from the considerations so
torcibly urged by my Right Honourable Friend near
me—considerati ins which I will not weaken by repeti-
tion. I will not, therefore, trouble the House by en-
feting into a detail of the political evils of Ireland..,—
To do so would be merely to destroy the effect of. what
has been urged by. my Right Hon. Friend, •without
producing a particle of benefit. I Shall not, for the same
season, investigate the evils of a nicely balanced P..r,
lumens or of a divided Cabinet, but will contvnt myself-
with mAkihg a few remarks upon some of the objections
statedby my lion. Friends in answer to the argument
of my Right Hon. Colleague. My. Hon. Friend says
that the situation of Irelan• . is not different Com what

,them as to tie weans, though he agreed with them as
.te the desirableness of the object theyhad.in view: (Tile
Right.uoitourable Godwin.' here, read a letter.fioni?s,
Clergystisain Ireland, describing the calamities of the, .
.situation in
.which he was placed •from the difficulty.ot
raising funds to pay fer the repairs of the church). Ti'e
measures taken by this House have much diminished.
the pcssibility of thegatholics combining to refuse the
payment of the dues of the Protestant Clergy.yet still such •
combinations can be made ; for the very tribunals, the ,
very Jury.from whom•the Protestant Clergyman his to
seek redress, is infiuenced.against him. These is one thing .
to be said on behalf of this measure, that it at least affords
the prospect cf tranquillising the public mind. But,
Sir, does not. the Church. of Ireland suffer also from .
other-causes operating in this country? Does it no •
suffer from the division in this House? I beg any
man to look at the debates in this House upon that sub-
ject, and remark who they were that took a promineu.t,
part against the Church ti Ireland. They were per.
sons professing that religion; and I will ask, if oppo.,
sition could come fit:fro-such persons, it nut from their
aversion to the. course pursued with respect to the
Roman Catholics? The difference, on this qurstionbas
not only led to division in Parliament and in .the
Government, but to a greater activity of opposition to
the Established Church of Ireland, and to greater in-.
activity in irs defence. It has left it in a state in which
it ought not to stand, and from which I think. it will be
relieved by this measure. I have not, Sir, acted from
a wish not to see the Protestant religion in the piece-.
&ht, but from a desire to fix it on a more secute basis,
and from.a hope that it may open the way to enlighten-
ment and general amilioratioii in Ireland, and to that
motel anJ religious improvemem. which I trust will,
at no distant period, be. visible in that country. I may
not lock upon the measure with all the exultation with
which it is regarded by some, but I was called up,in to
decide whether instant and pressing danger should be
encountered, or the hazard run of via. which is di,titn

it has been at many antecedent different peeled... This
I deny. But I will ask -him, whether the increase of
outrage, the continuance of the same evils, may not at
las. lead to such a state of things as may make a change
absolutely necessary ? My Hun. Friend has refereed to
1822, and has quoted pact of a speech of a Right Hon.
Gentleman, then Att Iney-General for Ireland, to prove
that the situation of Ireland is not worse now than it
was then; but will my Hon. Ft ienti reflect on the occa-1
sioa, and the period-at which that speech was uttered?
The Right Hon. Gentleman was then prosecuting an
individual for having belonged to an illegal society,
bound by illegal oaths to destroy Protestant property
and Protestant lives ;and my Right Hon. Friend repre-
sented, in powerful language, the unmixed evil of soch
a state of theage and called on the Jury; with that kneel
and eloquence a hich belonged to him, to visit the of.'
fender with condign punishment. Will my lion. Friend
say that it iesuch.a limited evil, for so I may call it,
compared with that which we -now seek to put down,
as the col tention for the suppression of a ribbon
society, that is now before us? Is there, in fine, no
change in the-.circumstances of the ,case ? Let my
flonout able Friend look -remind 'and examine the state
of
.I:eland ; let• him examine, the clashing istemests
taisrd. by this question from the highest to- the
lowest class; let him tee one rank-armed against area
met ; the landlordagaiost the tenant, the tenant against.
the landlord ; the Catholic against the Protestant, and-
the Pectestaut agsiist. the Catholic; and. all in such a
stilts of exa.pented.feeling as to tequirew large.regular
military -force to preserve-the peecee-(He ir); This state
oftieetthnstanies is far different from that which pre-
vailed at any antecedent peeled; and it is this state of
cie cunutances which the measure-proposed by' his Ma-
jesty's Ministers is calculated to remover by the doing.
away of the cause that p;odoced it. But, even admit-
ting to my Hon: Fiiend that.there is-nothing now. in.
the state of the countrya doeshe-iltsith; In me repeat it.
that these-is no. danger in the -constant action of the,
samteevils in 'the growth-of *the discontent• they must.
creatv ? Wes he think that the-same evil may not. by.
I cootanuatsces. become neole‘danger *us than, when-
it apposite? Hee mess agree -witleme that if the
evil appear init 'state teprogtession. it is necessary to
provide against its spread. How, then, can he com-
plain that- he Gower MOM bat atepped. fotward to put
a stop to a state of things which he himself dues nos
deny-iv:lowed?' Sr, my Honourable Fiiend' says that
, this is a religious question,- and has quoted a par .g•aph
from -my !light Honousablei Friend (Mr. Peel), in
shish he sentedebat. either. tee- Catholic -or the Proms-.
tint 'faith messittaveitre-aseendancy. Sir, I most per.
fatly concor with my Right Hon. Fiiend in that Atte.
ment—andtsay, Sir,. that.that is my justification for
now pursuing the: comae I do, for I insist that the
measure now recommended- to- Parliament has for its
object to make Protestantism the ascendant faith.—
Sir, it hat-been my,fortuee to be- mare iutimately, eons
erected with the Churchefrltel and -than pea* ips.any other
Member of, this House, and' I must- say that- there
has' been' a great change operatingin its situation for
some years past; a change which,. as-far as it is con-
cerned, render* the present measure absolutely. neces.
sary. I wilt. dranlviny Honourable-Friend to lend me
his attention- witilset point out to him the changes in
the statertif-tociete which made an alienst on of the
law necessary for thoint:resteof.the-Chuith of frolAnd.
Sir, the Protestaiet E-tablisheteChurefrof Irt4and stends
in a perilous-situation; it-is the religion of the minotiiy,
and is placed in tee midst of a. majority psofrssing a
different and • ad verse faith..and animated. in.latteetitelet
with violent howility towards its Those. also who are
their hostile have means- ef combination, means for act.
ing in concert tor any desired object,. such,-perhaps, at
were never before possessed in any ador of sunnily.
The support of a Church. it, such circumstances, de-
prods mainly, on. the purity of its duct:lnes, upon the
excellence of tire character of its professors, but above
ail. on the. agleam.. of dime ohne:ens the maj.,raty
towasstie. Ilse Mistitieri. that levee n—an affection which
ought to he supported by respects which, can only be
ntrintaiiiel by the ceurinited and undivided support or
P4lllansens. and the segolar proti aeon of Goverment.
Fr ors 'be acqsaintiote I have had aesoog the resident
(;realer of fret-ands, P knew they hove been lately placeal
in difficulties, such as before they were never involved
in—dtificulties eerier...ly owing, to the present. ques-
tion. Formerly a teiendly ifiillitelefie was kept tip
between the Prottstant rector and the Catholic
imputation among whom he ,eased. He did thee'
offices of kindness and gave them instruction ; and they,
ow then p et. tseaterd him with respect, and were aka aye
willies so treks to his orioles. This was a f.r Mfferost
rate of things from the present, and the change which
has taken place shows the necessity. as I before said, of
sems,chaoge in one paticy. Ihareletters from dsffeseet
parts of Ireland which parent a roam veiy differ's'
fulcra that which I have just laid before the House.
Those letters are from Clergymen, and they state
that so far from their being treated with the respect
they beenerly were, their instructions were new hardly
lisienld to, even in a temperate manner. It *es;
. to Imitate the lost influence of the Clergy, and the runes
of enabling them to give their instructions with effect,
so as se lead to the moral improvement of Ireland, that
• the present measure was rendered particularly desir-
able for the Irish Church. ?be Ardtbilibop and
Clergy of Dublin described the tailing off in the re.
"pea t it the, Catholic laity, and the batted which
they now have to the Established Church. and cell
for tl e interposition of Parliament to afford them
rfectual protection. It is true that they consider
. that protection to be best afforded by en adftertece to
dot fluent
seyetees...(a leueb)—,but #fe *lend with

and doubtful? and I had no hesitation in sacrificing
personal feeling, and advising the line of conduct which
I thought best for the Government to pursue both for
vindicating itself and m.king the Protestant religion
predominate in Ireland. From circumstances which

occurred formerly— (Hear).— I considered it incom-
intent for me to enter on the question at large; and 1
have, therefore, deemed it right to confine myself to the
state of the Establi,hed Church.

Mr. G. BANKES said it had been his earnest desire
to address the House before. giving one vote upon the
question, because be felt that me vote could convey a
sense of the entire and hearty opposition which he was
determined to give the measure before the House. Upon
the occasion when it was first debated, he readily gave
way to the many Members who anxiously presented
themselves to express their opinion, and to vindicate
themselves from the charge of .silence preferred by the,
Right Hon. Secretary of State. He thought the result
of thdt debate had proved that if in numbers they were,
overpowered, and that if in talents they were exceeded,
by the supporters of the measure, yet that the numbeesl
of those who thought with him were far from insiguil.:
cant, and they werestill farther from being contemptible
either for rank, character, or ability. Whatever obloquy.
was to be incurred by the comparatively few who dated,
to maintain their principles and. adhere to their opinions,
he was ready cheerfully to share that obloquy, provided
he was also allowed to share the credit and rod. will
ry which such a course had been rewarded by the coun-
try. He had not ventured to put himself sot ward on the
question, because-he could nut deny that it now came
forward under auspices which it had never before
known. It had now on its side a name which was ss a
tower of strength"—of strength whose farce he should
be the last to deprecate or deny—a strength wl:ich no-
thing to deny or controul, except it was the honest
voice it the people. But armed with that power, as it
had been expressed .in the petitions which had. reached to
that House, and to the foot of the Throne, where he was
confident the payees of the people would meet with
attentive and affectionate consideration, he should not
shrink lions opposing the question as he had ever doi.e.
And here he could riot but protest against the spirit and
runnier in which the Petitions of the People had been
received by their Representatives. An Hon. Member
on the other side, who had spoken upon this topic with
much faitoess and candour, had said, that, considering
the unptecedented number of Petitions. they had biers
treated with fair-attention. Now be was of opinion that,
because. the number of Petitions was so extraordinary,
tt•ey, reqpired a more than ordinary deyoee olattenuon,
and therefore it was that be entertained a heartfert regret
at the treatment which they had experienced from some
'Members of that House. He had weighed with most
scrupulous doubt, and with the utospst diffidence, the
opiuions which he formerly, held upon the question;
tor when he found that those for whim) he h.sd always
'entertained the deepest reverence and respect had seen
'occasion to change their course, it seemed in him s• me•.
thing approaching to presumption it he d tiered from.
*hem evert in that. He had therefore carefully exam-
ined all the grounds of his opinions, but he had found
in them no fallacy of which he could convince his mind.
He had listened with great attention to what had fallen
from those quarters, and he confessed he. had heard
nothings to make him doubt, altliouAh his surprise had is
some degree been excited by the arguments which his.
[tight, Hon. Ftien.l had pot lot ward * hiving influ-
enced his strong and vigorous mind to alter the course
upon which every orre supposed it to be unalterably
bent. The leading circumstance so put forward vies
rite present state tit Ireland. His Biala HOP. Friend had
admitted that there was in the state of that country no
aggravated danger as compared with some other period,
and that remedies could have been applied to the re..
move' of that danger, only that the remedies would
hate been, but of a temporary nature. Now bis objec-
tion to this measure was, that it could only be a tem.
poraty remedy—(Hear, hear).. It would still lest.
'behind a Catholic Question—(Cheer;). *There would
still be a grievance, if the grievance consisted its
the disabilities. And above all, there must sift
be a grievance, if the grievance, consisted in Pr,'
,cesmot Asceaclaitcy, since his Right Hon. Friend, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, had been arguing that this
was a Bill for securiog the Protestant Ascendancy, aid
had given that character of the measure as the justificr
lion of the change in his opinions. He certainly did
not view the measure in the same light as his Right Hoe.
Friend, but he was ready to admit that, compared with
what the Roman Catholic H.erarchy wished to fee, it
might be said to promote and secure Aseendancy.-.-
But hel contended that it was still only a temporary
measure, led that any tranquillizing effects which it
Might produce for the time were not worth the
sacrifice they were called upon to make. His Right
Hon. Friend bad informed them that the Church yj
Ireland had to contend with great difficulty, and far
these reasons the Church required to be defended and
itot•Cted by the Government. What, then, was to be-
come of the Church if the bead of the Government I
*add be a Roman Catholic? Was it in this light that
the asealUrt was to be taken as a security for the Pro-
testant Ascendancy ? Its he. it vas proposed cloths

the ease of a Roman Coli lfc Lulling, the office of had been so ably supported that night that he might
Prime Minster all Church patronage should be placed bejustiffel in thinking m
measure o
msvllefacmusiendi:terfhloaLwrteido
,in the hands of a Paotestant Commission. But emu was op„ioed the re
.10 appoint the Commissioners? The Roman Catholic under the stigma of being deficient not only in in.
,Prime Minister. Undoubtedly i• was made a high mis telligence but in liberality but he was prepared
demeanour by the Bill for a Roman Catholic Prime to take his share in the reptoach. If it should so
Minister to advise the Crown in the disposal of the happen that the cause of the Protestant Constitution
patronage of the Church; but he was I, ft with the of this realm must fall, it would be a consolation
power of appointing the Commissioners who were to ,to those Who made the last, ihsugh ineffectual,
sive that advice, aud with the still more dangerous sieuggl:s for its preservation, that they had acted in
power of removing them at his pleasuse. Besides unison with the opinions and leeliti,s of the huge
.this, who was to define the privileges and prerogatives mass of the intelligent and religious community of
of a Prime Minister ? They had lately seen that dith. England—(Heat). The people of England• who bad
cult] exemplified in the year 182;7, when many .expressed their opinion on the subject had as touch
;Members of both Hou!os of- Parliament refused ielligence to quality them for the task as thoie who 14..
a,
heir support to a Minister b:cause he was known
„homed night atter night to stultify themselves on the
.to entertain certain opinions upon this question.-- question. He th. ught it required only cheers:mon ten,.
`They had then the word of a Minister to rely on as which was the characteristic of the people of England, to
to the use of patronage, and, his was a word which come to a correct jiidgment on the subfct. The present
was never given in vain, And never doubted. •But it was tate of Ireland had been 'offered as a conclusive ergo.
said and felt, that there was a power of which a Pi one ment on the subject, and it was asked in it a hit
Minister could not divest himselt,an influence which was do you plopose to do *kit Ireland? He could „tit tl.i it
like sunshine to the sun, and which. must Pave its effect 'ha,. Leland was to b! pacified by the extinction of -
in spite of his own determination to the courat y. Such test oit Ascendancy. Any man who ki.e.v ihe histoi y
were the securities nffereJ.a:id he was satistiei they were
,rif feland, knew that the evils by which she is afflicted
the best that could be found when they we,e presented esiced before the Reform& ion, a hen there aas no do.
fsom such a quarter. He w.s thereftee co .vitic :d that tinction tf religion amongst the people. Ilensight also
no securities could be devised suffleimtly stiong to war- appeal to toe Eight Hon. Geis:leen-30. a late S.-cretar
rant the admissionofltortianCathulie.ta political 'power. .14 Ireland. though no longer a Member of the pre era,
Towards the latter end of the Bill, as it by way of orna- Gaerontent. bat a supporter of the present meastre
ment,a security fortheChotch of I -elaisd of another kind (lllie. Charlesikassi).lhat the :Au.e in these evils was out
was offered. The I ish Roman Catholic Ecclesiastics were changed's fsirW Revd lion. Gentleman hid steely ed
to be no longer permitted to c noinue,the insulting and that the tumults by which Ireland was sdistr-c,ed, tisd
obtrusive practice of assuniing titles which belonged roar origin, in what?—Protestant ascendancy ? no, in
to others. His objection to this, as a sectisity for local oppressiou. It was the nuislottune ofireland that
which they were to pay the enoi muus price of the Bili her first connection w ith this country was that of a con.
was, that they possessed it alt eatlys 'there was a pro- quered country. Her lands stem then pa/ceded out to
Vision in the Acts of 1781 and 1782, which was a Whet English se. ilersion the express couslition that tn. ye.ou 4
Bill, providug that the benefits conleried by the Ast reside on the estates that weir given them; aod Allah.
should not extend to any Popish Ecclesiastic who miseries of Iceland might be traced to the deseition of
assumed any such rank or title whatever. Then those who ow' d every thirg they possessed to the coon-
came the Act of 1798, which, in his opinion, did try they had sbandoited. All alio bad written on lie.
not repeal the. provision to which he had alluded.— land for centuries allowed that the penile were de, en.
It cei tinily did not do it Mew ei4 a ords, arid he thought Jet on the will of absentees, who gave orders to sweep
it did not by implication, IL, Right lists. Ftiend who the people off their lands in a couleur where there was
proposed the measure had pat ticularly dwelt upon two no employment, and whei e, to the disgrace ol hums:sky.
tithe} topics, the consideration of which had led his mind there was nu legal provision for the poor—(Hear, hear,
to the same conclusions. His Right 11 Friend had hear). The natural consequence was, the same et.
alluded to the division an die, House, and to the diacre- pression of dissatisfaction that had taken place in the
piney of opinion between that and the other House of manufacturing districts of this country, when these was
Parliament. Nnw it being admitted that the m ijorities a want of employment, and demagogues went amongst
upon the divisions in that H use weir very small, being them to tell theirs that the cause of all their sufferings
occasionally interrupted by the occurrence of mita°, ities. was the want of Parliamentary Reform. These denim-
the result of all was that opinion in that Home was very gogues were brought to justice and punished; but the
nearly balanced. But ho.s was it with the crher Hods, Catholic agitators, 'who tell the Irish people that the
01 Parliamena ?•Theiellie division la t year exhibited a canoe of all their sufferings is 11. e want of Ca holic
mejority of 44 voices against the questiou. And was it Emancipation, ate be encouragi d and rewerLed.
to be expected that the House which had the large ma. Would this Bill provide for the wants 1.1 the people
prise would give way to the House that had the small of Ireland? No—the only provision it n.ade for the
one? Fur their teastus it appeased to tom thathis Right people was, to tear from the peasant the enjoy meat
Hon. Friend's considera.ions weie not at all conclusive. of a long-exercised privilege to deck the cetonets• of
There was another subject upon which lie was desirous the land—(Elear. hear). It nothing more was done
of seeing a few words, but he must first ask leave of the for the people, Ireland never would be calm—never
Hon. and Lem net Solicitor Get oral fot Ireland, as he ought to becalm. If they soewit to legislate tOf Ireland
knew hose disagreeable the bare mention of that subject effectually, they should take with them the lights rif
was to his feelings—he meant the Constitution as sett ed co urnon sense and.ezee. ience, and go to the task with
in 1688. He' wished to declare his opinion that theselaws the warmth of Lenevolenee T must d. velope her
were an integral part of that Constoutinn, and he should ample resourcei, hitherto :cutely known, and must in-
otempt to show it in better language than he himself tioluce a system of poor laws, which it WAS a tilt, time
could command—in the language of th se men erh.• to ti is coontry she should so long he si ithout. They
brought that glorious event shout, and who, during most diffuse die blessings of &Christian th: raigh-
that very year, thought it to emery to take into ih it s u the land, aid by rho e stood, means, ouuld
consideration the means of preserving those very se- Ise ridiculed by some, and resisted by the inve .:ate
cuticles for the Protestant Ascendancy. He alluded par• prejudices of others, they would apl.iy an cti ctual
ticulaily to that document %filch was the Inindatirm cf remedy to the errors of ages—(He tr) Ireland was de-
the Bat .of Rights;—the D:claration of the Prince of sertetl, was degraded, was inoilteJ, and the only semede
()range when he landed in ill a 4.9usstry. This argument proposed was a compliance with age noes. lola, d asks
did not apply to hi. Right Hon. Eitul, who admitted labour and bread, and you proffer het Catholic h m in-
that the measare wa".en sacs Ailoll of the C .nstitutioti as cipatioir—(Cheers). And this is all that ra pre p seJ as
settled in 1608. Hut tittle were others, he believed, a compliance with the recommendation in his Majesty's
who denied it.—The honourable Member then toad a Speech to take the whole state if ltelaitd into cr,roldtr.
passage: from the 1) claration, which eoutherate • ation.—He wisl ell to say a few words on the general
amongst the grievances of the subject, that evil Coon- question, on which i e differed from some us tht., 0 a horn
eillors of the King hiving anntelled.the laws for pro- he ought, and whom hi did, respect ; but in O. position
hibiting the hOlding of certain wheels by persons of. •tei the r opinions he, was prepared to contend, that the
the Pepish Religion, without taking the oatht of All.- Shish Constitution was founded sired built on dis haulier
glance and 8 psemacy, and the Test. Also another Wil;Cli could not be taken away without its Lea% weak-
which states the desigo of the. Prince to ha that sped. The Constitution of England was IDA. e' up of
of haying a fete and lawful Parliament assembled, 'qualifications; it demanded a t ecut.iary qualtticatir n
" both fer condensing and exect.ting.the laws co t• in the Freeholder and in the R:ptearittett .e; i s the
caning the Testi and. such ether hiss as may be Juror and in the Nlashtrate; and this was done tot the
necessary for the security arid support of the Pro- unitingintellieienee with power; but posit cat radicals
testant,ltelisioe.` Is the Bill of 'Rights, itself, there inveigh against qualifications, And say it is I..cortsistei'it
passages were alluded to in these woods: 64 To which with inveigh against
and all they say e ill tecei re additional
demoiol of theit Resins they are pat tieulai ly encouraged force it this measure she conceded. '1 he Coos; it talon
by th, litclarationolllsePoinceorthatge,a, being the also demanded a mutat qualification, and constituted
only. means 01 obtaining atoll rsdresi." This show ed that Christianity a port aol pet t of the law of the iealni ;
the ntain,enance of theTeoLavirwaseotisideted essential and also constituted the pure and trimmest prole son
in the settlement of tlitCrunistutsoss 'and ef that were the of that religion as a qualification for the posses-ion of
case, he would ask if they were wit sag in appealing to power; aced it did so wisely, as that"Clitirch inculcated
the integrity of the Constitution "Oust a measure which the !WS( and 'surest principles of Cht &tan c has ity Re-
wtnt so three.. ly to its violation ? He th isiked the House ligious rad.cafs ioseigh against this recoitoti. a and
for its Attention, and would cm.tstruo to use the most adhesion to the doatones of Christianity, which was
Jetermined—but he hoped an uunoureble—opposition now made a matter of t'erroach—(lfeti, heal.) He
to the Bill. hea. d the Revolution of 1698 spoken of as a je t as if it
Lord CASTLEREAGH sai.l that, at *crisis like the shod J be transplan'ed from the hi tory Of England to
present, he sloolliEconsider himse.t unworthy of the Joe Millet—(Hear, and a laugh) But the 8.1.1 t aided
place he occupied, and of the name which he bore, if he securities foe the Protestant &tab islirnet.t. Loid
gave a silent vote upon that 0.c..t0n. He represented Lieutenant of Ireland was to be a Pict.sta.o. hot he
the most Protestaht county of Protean' Ulster, and might be surrounded by Cathol c advises. Toe office
was one of a. large body who, as tar as themselves weie of Lord Chancellor was to be filled by Postestani, but
.concerned, had . sue
,reason to complain of the exist- the appointm nt might be mane by a Cacho k Prime
iisg laws, Toe. population.of Ulster were opulent and Minister. The King n.ust be a Prote tent, but his Mi.
erospetous, acid, if he weir asked t what they were in- niters might be ail Catholics. Now he would object,
debted for these blessings, 1 e should say that they owed as a matter of taste, to such an unequal testtaitit as
them to the tact of their enjoying; the advantages of equal allowing the Minister s full ft (*dont rf c'm ce, and keee-
laws, operating alike upon Ali the individuals of the corn- mg shackles round the beivereiol. Much lad bete
otiosity. If he shoUlekthen; be asked why, enjoying such said of the effect this measure wtOild have on the title
advantages omit:Nilo' peseta' system, he was willing of the King to the Crown, and he would not apptcoich
to forego this tetreinty for the precarious benefits to that subject with levity. He would not sty toat'
oe derived bons a clone in the law? he answered, measure would shake the legal title of the Sove.eign ;
that the present proapetity. Omit they. enjoyed was but he would say that it disturbed his ins sal title. It
not likely to be proof against the operation of causes might be preserved in the corner of 'an Act of Parlie-
which now elided, and which, if not removed, ment, but it w. uld mite to stand on the broad base of
would entirely destroy it. • The measure now before the Protestant ascendancy, and it would weaken the r.iph -
House would diffuse happiness, strength, and security ful title of the Monarch cf the greatest Protestant Em-
over the country. •It had beep said that the Protestant pire in the world. Instead of the Royal robe of glory
Church wanted safeguards, without which the glorious covering the Monarch, they might devise to hang his
fabric could not be maintained. His thought the Pro. tide on the peg of an exception. It was said thvbest
testant Church minted no such securities; but,•if she security for theProtestamEstablishment was to be found
did—if she could not stand on the put ity of her doe- in ti e numerous petitions tf the people against the me.-
trtns—she was not worthy of that supsemacy in which sure ; trot what security would that afford when the pen-
her ever-eozious supporters wished to place her. The ple found their petitions disregarded? If disregarded
Noble Lord concluded, after some obseivations *Which petitions were the best security, the Protestant Est:-
were inaudible in the gallery, by paying a high compli• blishment must soon fall—(Hear.) He might recall if e
went to the Duke of Wellington, who, by the present arguments of the Right Hon Gentleman (Mr. Peel)
measure, would &estate the stability of this empire at which werestillunanswered and unansveerabre. N. in.
home, alter having established her supremacy abroad. ferior talent could change sides with the effect chit he
Mr. SADLER lines and was not that
distinctly heard in had done; but such was his power of aiguneenr,
the gallei y ter ;ales moments, principally owing to he Changes sides and still *confutes. In theTariumention
an endeavour to seeirim, which caused a general move- this question equal weight!, instead • f being a dewed to
meat in the The first expression we caught balance each other, were regarded as preponcetating
was, that in a- Cadie • like that which now occupied according to the side on which they were used. -By
their attention, he. was.. willing to express himself, one it was said in support of the 'misuse, that the
lad vrpuld not give a silant.•voter though: the capse" Catholic religion Was so powerfUl 'behind ciat it
.
• - ..• • •

.

•

lastly resisted. By another,
i there was so feeble, that
admitting it into the Con-
the Catholic religion was
(mita safe as an associate foe
some said the Catholic.
Protestant Centtimuiem. that
into it with safety leithers that
that they must be admitted for
peace end security. ',easy the measure will uphold
the Church of England, while others, with mote reason,
look to it as the means of establishing the Catholic
Church—(Hear. hear, hear). But et all the beanlie-
tions to which the country was subjected. none was-so
great as that which taught support fur the measure
by an sipped to the practice of other countries. Eng-
hod, it was said, did not kncsw the tudintents of liberty,
ind she was sent to learn from ot%er countries—to
pick op the crumbs that fell from the tables of tyranny,
superstition, and Priestcraft—(lmmense cheering).—
But arguments were-likely to be considered but of little
moment, end he could refer to consequences. If the
measure were agreed to, the liberty of the country would
certainly be more or lest: placed in jeopardy g and he
had no more doubt of the fall of the Estnblished Church
than he had of his existence—(Hear). When her anta-
gonists were lodged within her wall it,was not di/E-
-colt to prognosticate the fall of thl '.Chuteb which
was the most moderate, the most ettroed. and the
most liberal the world ever saw—(lhreast cheering).
But it was said the concessions made -1), Use present
Bill would afford satisfaction and procure peace
and tranquillity. Were not the same promises made
when concessions were made during the last reign?,
He did not think the present concessions would give
peace and tranquillity to Deland, because other objects
would tentain to be attained by the same means that
bad been successful in' obtaining the concessions of
this Bill; and the* same means would be resorted to
for their atutiument. These were his anticipations ;
they might be erroneous, but - they were the' sincere
and hoaest feelings of his heart—(Hear, heat),
He bad heard. much of the oaths that were taken
o I-. entering that .House—his mind was impleised
with, 4 sense of the.sicredness of the obligation. He had
recently t .keo en' oatkat. that table, which, as well as he
understood it—(hear, and sr. laugh)—meant to protect
the Legislature from • the. admission of Papety. We
swore the Rope. should have no authority in,the realm;
hut if ha. were to coosentao
,the Pope having all the
-authority abis Bill would confer, on him, as the bead
of the Catholic Church, he wouldo think it a violation
of that oasis—(Haar, hear, heat): It bad been said this
but a small dumber of, Catholics would be admitted
to the Legislature ay the, ll ; bat there would 'Ceti:Ali
be a number sufficient to reverse all the great iitieltioiti
by which Ike liberty of the country was secured. At
the time of the Revolution, hid\there been. Catholics in
.Pailiameist instead of a peaceable settlement, that mea-
sure could only be carried by blood. Toe Act of Settle-
s: cut was passed by a majority of one; would it have
been passe.. at all had n. t Parliament bred exclusively
Protestant ?—(Great cheering). It was said that of all
times this was tl.e b-st for making concession. He
tilt vitt that of all times it was the worst, because it was
the latest. At first it midst have been accepted as a
bona ; n .w it was estoited. and was given reluctantly
and with disc, ust. If it were a matter of right, it should
be conceded, ai all eve ,Is, lot Le abhorred setting exist--
dies c) wrote tigl't. If it were conceded at all, the Mi.
ulster. by whom it w..s introduced were culpable in not
conceding hi for c. It a as said t`bere had been a divided
Cabinet, but it those who supported the measure now
had supported it the", there would have been no divi-
sion in the, Cabinet. 'Dime who now biought forward
the measure, then said they could not act with a Prime
Minister who supported the mea ure.He was one of those,
and he heartily lamented it, who had 'mite,' with them in
hinting down that noble hearted imii vid u .1 who prose)
that hi fe Bugs were equal to his eloquence (Mr. Can-
ning ). If .he had had a seat in that House he should
have voted against him; but he revered his character,
-and was convinced history would do justice to his
splendid talents and Virtues. Whatever advantage
might be gained from this measure, would be more
than counterbalanced by the loss of confidence in public
men; ~that must be one of the consequences of the
manner in which it was supported. Apostacy was the
prey .iling principle of the present day.—(Hear, hear.)
Was them . such a thing as principle left?—(Hear.
hear.) 1., indeed there was, it ought' to be respected.
He had beard it said that evening, that no confidence
could be played
to go farther,. and say .44 all pea are liars"-L(Hear,
hear. mixed. /Kith cheering and laughter). Polities.) ter!.
e isersation. was like misery,, it, made men acqiefisted
.with strange companions—(Hear, hear). lie 'con
Weird this obsetvation not uncalled for. Brim the
changes that had taken place; lie, howevir, trusted
they wine changes (tom principle—(Hear, hear). It
was thefiost time. be had ever addressed that House,
but be must speak the troth with boldness, and state
his sentirdents on the conduct of public nien—(Her).
He felt confident the cause of Protestintism was stiil
drier yrs the. Sovetei.e n, and that, backed by the educa-
ti^n and religious and leanest prejudices of the people
of England, it must prevail. He had heard objectious
raised against PstitiOn., on the ground of their being
signed, by Taupe's; lie would say that was the very tea•
son. why therahould be attended to. A poor man's
zeligion was all that he had to trust to—it was all his
hove. and all his place in affliction and distress; ought
it not 'theiefote to be respected ?—(Herr*, !Kai. and
cheers). He would adk again, was the Protestant cause
to he first betrayed in ttie,land that gave it 6irth?-:-.1
And was that Houae to be the plAce where the first '
blow was to be struck? bOD forbid I—(Hear. heil
He would say that the manner into/hid: this ,treat ques-
tion had been managed. and the'mar earring that 11A
been resorted tooras a disgtate to Ministers; such ma.
*snaring might be proper f r an army, but it would
a a do fee* the people of England. They must be deal:
with openly and candidly. t• I arraign neither the prin-
ciples nor the consistency of the o,iposition ; it I. to the
a 'tie, sudden, and simultaneous converts that I adlide,
- who. moreover. have the warmth of all new converts,
and their hatred of all those who remain consistent.—
Their a-d, indeed, is of so agitating and intense a na-
ture that, like the ingredients oft boiling cauldron, it
is perpetually overflowing, and scalding , all within its
reach--(lLar. h-ar). But I am perhaps presenting
&int spies and feelings rather than argument, to this
House. I meant, I promised so to do when I was sent
hither. and I have kept and mean to keep my word. 1
know how dear this sacred, ti-is deserted cause is to the
hews and to the undemanding: of Englishmen. Tre
principle maybe indeed weak in this How, dut,alunad
I Marches io mete then ell its wonted In ghr headed in
spite el the aspersions of its enemies, by the ii,telligerge,
the fetishist, the loyalty of the country ; and if the hums,
zeal. nay, even the cherished prejudices of the people,
swell its train, thank GOD for ;be accession. Here,
Sir, that cause may be, like those wasting tapers melt-
ing away ; these it pantos uneztinguishably. it lives"

abroad, though this House, which was its cradle, may be
now preparing its grave! (Hear). To the tepresentatives
the people committed their dearest birthright, the Pro-
testant Constitution. They have not des. rted it, who-
ever has. If it must perish, then. I call Goo to witness
that the people are guiltless 1 Let it, then, expire.l say,
in this spot---the place of its birth, the scene of its long
triumphs—betrayed, deserted, 'in the house of its pie.
tended fricods, who while they smile ate still preparing
to smite-.let it . bete, while it receives blow after
blow from those who have hitherto been its ass°.
'ciates . and supporters, fold itself up in its mantle,
'and hiding its sairpw and disgrace, fall when it feels
the last vital stab, at its heart from the hand of one
whom it' had armed in its defence,• and advanced to
-its highest •ItositSurt—(Cheers). Sir, I am miscon-
'itrued if my )alit ixpressione imply any thing but regret
in refetellte IQ lite' alltntiOUS individual to whom! hive
diode& ,None evevadmired.-mme still admire the bean
of hit' tannery,. Motelhan I 'do. My heart pat took of
hit.' first ,glinies, and My'humble adhetence arenas
paniedhiaa ip stony subsequent., perii.if cif his career,
even when those who now profess t. airi4te him. heaped
upon him the coarsest insult." • To ttineeph over him,
were it in mt pottier, would infiik upon lay feelings
,•
pang which could only be eeceedefi. bistb,e downfall of
the constitution of a country, whose time he has so gin.
riously augmented, and whose greatness, if not exist-
ence, be has so nobly achieved-(Heir). But, Sir, the
name of that Constitution again tans my. mind far
above all personal considerations and I will waive them.
I vrillidetain Ott House but a few moments longer, but
I ;isnot help adding, chit of all the diretubstuires
tending this momentous measure nothing has in strongly
suited the resentment of the pipe's., especially that
large and lOyal part of them wisp have hisherto sup-
ported Government, as the studied concealment, not to
say intentional miMeading, with which it has been at-
tended throughout. This may. and doubtless ii, the
proper policy when a General has tomtit:wpm upon an
army of enemies; when, howeverin great measure has to
be cattiest with the concurrence of the friends of their
cquntry,.ikstrikes me that openness. candour, and c 0.16.
dente would have been found to beabetter and Mote
creditable policy: But the last Ned most important
consideration I shall present to thirollouse effete: its
competency to entertain this ..qoesßen. :,This
I say;' bas no right to proteed in' this work of counts,-
revolution without einitulting the people. On preced-
ing:Stations ibeftnestion has, as by common consent,
been kept from' their particular consideration, as to have
rbeistiiineAit would have been stigmatised the a No
Popery try;" and, ,moreover, they:confided .in this
particular,- in:the express declarations of his Majesty's
Government, and determined their choice therefore
by ntb,r groundsof political or local preference. The
Prop:statutes-Motion, now endangered, was first esta-
blished in a Convention, called for that special purpose;
and without as full an a; ral,and with equal formality;
the people have no right to be. robbed ',of it. I am fully
aware of the legal fiction that Parliament is omnipo-
tent, but it • is nevertheless a fiction. The Pediment
is neither called Co, nor competent to, alter the original
fratue-work, inay;so speak. of the Constitution.—
Supposing, for instance, this House, in conjuction with
the other branChes'of the Legislature, were to enact that
our seats should be perpetual, and not only forlife, but
heseditary,where is the man that will inert that wehave
a right or a 'power given to us so to legislate? Suppose
we were to agree to abolish the represeotative system
altogether, or take away Trial by Jury—(Hear, hear).
I repeat the question, where is the' man that dares to
asset' that the power of Parliament extends thus far?
But as to the Protestantism of the Constitution, it is cer-
tain that our powers to change this in any degree are
still more cl, arly and intentionally limited. We make
a solemn f eclaration to this effect at' taking. our seats
here, and mine has been taken too lately to be lorgotten.
hOwever it may be by others. Under these circum-
stances, neither the establi shed Constitution of the coun-
try, nor the oaths and declarations taken by us, permit
us to assume the rigt,t which is now so e.gerly sought to
be exercised, namely, the right of throning open the
doors of this House to the admission of Popery, tq the
scandal, disgrace and danger of the Protestant establish-
ment in Chinch .and Sate. Sir, we have no lawful
power for doing this; the people of England sent us
not hither for any such purpose. They interdicted us by
solemn oaths and declarations from daring to attempt
such a course—(Cheers). Their voice is heard in their
numerous and correct Petitions, which cleanse their
consciences fruns the stain of participating in so foul a
transaction!. I am, persuaded they will meat it deeply
and permanently if we proceed—(Heat). Let the House,
then, beware "—(Loud c)eeting).—He besought the
Hewett) pause—the question had not been foully put
to'ttu people; if the. Constitution was to be changed,
a'Parliament ought to be called tor the purpose; it
was dear to Engtishmen, and it ought nut to by hur-
ried through the •House—(Hear). lie would say, let
every Man " learn, Mark. and inwardly digest it.'—
(Mach sheering). fie thanked the House for its patient
attention, and only wished be could have advocated
the Cause more powerfully—(Cheers) In conclusion
ha *Would say, than it war not• his wi.b to' keep the
Catholics out of places that they might 611 wi h safety
to the'Protestain Cliur‘c-.. He admired t• err abui.,
and -id, but their religion was of that nature it could
not be trusted. AI er again thanking the House ton at.
attention, thy H nourable Member sat down amidst
loud applause, which lasted for several minutes.
'Sir GEORGE WARREN DER rote iiinidsc cries et Ques-
tion;" and the House continued so much disturbed during the tune
that be was speaking, that we were unable to bear what the Hots.
Baronet said. We understood him to support the Morino, and to
deny that the laws against the Catholics were a part sf the Coustitw
two as settled at 1688. The object of the Revolutinis at that period
was to secure the Crown to a Protestant Ring, and be did not no.
demand, that at present there was any broncos to alter that at.
raugement..-(•" Question, questioa
tar. FA NE sae amidst cries of " Qi esti. a," bet the House
seemed disposed to listen to the Hon. Member. We understood
him to oppose the voodoo, and to agrees Munro' that be,u wen
as other Alembera, were obliged to oppose a Government they felt
, willing to support.
Mr. BA N ICES also rose amidst cries of* Qeesties." and moved
an adjournment of the Debate—(Criee.of " Goon, go !" and of
" Adjourn, adjount!") '
Mr. Secretary PEEL said be bad no lewdest to resist the ma
don tor an adjottninient—(cries of " Go els; " Adjourn") but he
was sure that the disces.ion woild Mei, mote satisfactory if the
Horse would Si no an early hour Inc its rieuniptise. That night
they bad been occupied only four hours end a quarter on such an im-
portant question. lie thought that it was understood that the dines.
stun should commence at ale u'cluck—(Cries et " Sight,"'" Five.")
He would repeat that the discussion could be carried on with more
satisfaction by fizieg on a reasonably early hour lee cumenstreg
Si R. INGLIS contended, tom dais being bat the second night
of the discusdoo, it was causal. ly bard that the time for the bud-
mos of the petition Mould be cut sheet, particularly se the pedtions
were the may channel through which the woke of the people could
'be conveyed to Parliament. the people having nitUhame of their
send:mad being repressed through their Reproseutatives.
Lord MILTON said, it was not usual to adjourn a debate eta
au important subject at so early se hour se bell past twelve o'clock.
If the Hoo. Member for the Uoivessity 4f thicrd wished to have
those numerous petotilio. beard, bit course altsuld be to concur in
motion for adjournining stow hie debate ma the au, and thee
move that the House do.proceed to hear the Petitions—(Crles ut
6. Adjourn, adjourn ").
Mr. Secretary PEEL was sure that the wish of all parties was
to condom the debate in the mod satisfactory Meaner. To effect
that it timid be nisesairf tbershudid sit for Ste or ex mesas-

the boors. It was not quite fair to adjourn the debate se early
after such few Members bad spoken. He was aware that night
after night attempts were made In that House to stimulam the peo-
ple of England to opposition to the measure, by persuading them
that their petitions were not fairly heard in that House. but he was
sure such attempts would fail. If the question was to be satisfac-
torily discussed, it would be necessary to allow a proper space at
time fur the discussion.
• Mr. RAN KES aid be would be in his place at sit o'clock to-
morrow evening, and ready to sesame the debate—(Cries of " Go
on," " Adjourn.") •
Mr.' Sectetary PEEL said, as many Members would leave the
House, and these who would speak would not be attended to to.
night, after the understanding that the debate should be adjourned,
it would be better to adjourn then, and mousse the discussion at
sin o'clock tomorrow evening..
Lord HOWICK called on the Hon. Member for the University
of Oxford to come forward, it Ad say menially that he concurred in
the understanding proposed by the Hn. Member fur Dorset.
Sir It. INGLIS was astonished at the call of the Noble Lard.
He could not undetstand why the Noble Lord should 6g oa him
(Sir R. Inglis), or all what ground the Noble Lord could have felt
'himself authorised to presume to dictate to blot any line of can.
duct? He should deity that the Noble Lord was authorised to
exercise any such dictation. Ile (Sir R. Inglis) 'you'd no: allow
the Noble Lord, or any other Member, to prescribe to bins the
course of hii Lratliantentary conduct, but should pursue that line
in the discharge of his public dots which his con.eience should
suggest to hlm—(Cbeerinj).
. Lord 110 WICK said a few worth in explanation.
•Lord MILTON &fended the conduct of his Noble Friend.
"His Noble Friend meant that it was !said the House, is the mow
of resuming the debate, should be left at the mercy of any one indi-
vidual Member.
Mr. C. WY NN add that no individual Member could prevent
the House from rooming the debate at soy hour they pleased.
Mr. Secretary PEEL trusted the S.ember for the University
would present his petitions at as early hour to morrow evening.
Sir H. INGLIS would repeat that the language of the Noble
Lord (Howick) was not such as be was authorised to use. •
Lord HOW ICK explained. •
The debate was then dropped, with an under.tandine that it
should be resumed to-morrow (this) evening at sit o'clock ; and the
Boni* adjourned at HALF -PAW TWIIIML
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