The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1852-07-13 00:00:00

COUNCIL,

The proceedings of the Finance Committee comprised a
recommendation to borrow the sum of £9780; the
amount required to be paid by the Corporation to the
lessees of the Gunpowder Magazines, under the provi-
sions of the Act 14. h and 15th Victoria, c. 67, alsl re-
comendation to advertise for sale the advowson of Trinity
Church and Christ Church, under the direction of the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners. It appeared, also, from
the proceedings of the committee, that the letter received
from Mr. E. James, Q C., in reference to his salary as
assessor, had been referred to counsel for their opinion
thereon. _ _

Mr. HORNBY, in moving the confirmation of the pro-
ceedings, referred, in the first place, very briefly to the two
above-named recommendations. With reference to the
ium of £9.780 now proposed to be paid by the Corporation
to the lessees of the gimpowder magazines, the committee
had the power, by the recent act of parliament, to
borrow the money. As regarded the sale of the advow-
son of Trinity Churcb, and Christ Church, it was neces-
sary to advertise the sale, as the time f..•r which they held
them would elapse in six mohths. He believed they were
not of much value, but such as they were, it was neces-
sary that they should be sold.
Both recommendations were unanimously confirmed.
Mr. HORNBY said , that withreference to the remainder of
the resolutionsof the committeewhich had been read,it was
his duty to move that one of them should not be confirmed.
It was the resolution passed by the committee to defray
the expenses of defending an action which had been
brought against Mr. Mansfield, for an alleged illegal de-
cision in his capacity as stipendiary magistrate. It had
been usual for the finance committee to defend actions
brought against officers of the corporation for acts per-
formed in discharge of their duties ; but with reference to
this case, since the passing of the resolution, it had been
thought desirable that the town-clerk should take the
opinion of counsel as to the legality or otherwise of such
an appropriation of the corporate funds, and the com-
mittee now found that it was not legal to defray the ex-
penses of defending this action, either out of the borough
fund, or out of the fees which came to the magistrates'
clerks. It certainly placed them in an anomalous posi-
tion, and he thought it was a great hardship both on Mr.
Mansfield and the other magistrates of the borough, that
they should be placed in the position of being compelled
to defray the expenses of such actions out of their own
pockets. In such cases they knew that the magistrates'
clerks were often called upon to pay such charges out of
their fees, but in the present case the magistrates' clerks
had resigned their fees or profits, and had in.place of them
accepted a fixed salary. He therefore moved that the pro-
ceedings of the finance committee be confirmed, with the
exception of the resolution authorising the payment of
the charges incurred in defraying the action brought
against Mr. Mansfield. The motion having been selonded,

-Mr. FERNIHOUGH said he should not have taken such
an active part in this matter, but he thought it was highly
necessary that they should be careful in keeping within
the law, because they did not know what might occur on
future occasions. With regard to the state of the law on
this point, it would now, perhaps, be admitted that the
legal responsibilities of gentlemen were greater than they
had hitherto imagined ; but it was quite clear that if ma-
gistrates accepted office they ought to be prepared to take
upon themselves all the responsibilities incidental to it.
(Hear, hear.) Now, in having originally opposed this
resolution of the Finance Committee, it was not in con-
sequence of any hostile feelings he entertained towards
Mr. Mansfield, but It was because he felt that it could not
be legally carried out ; and if the Finance Committee had
not agreed to withdraw it, he would have taken steps to
bring the subject .before another court. They all knew
that on a former occasion, in reference to the late judge
of the County Court, the Council were not allowed to
contribute anything from their funds towards the ex-
penses incurred in the steps resorted to for the removal of
the judge of the County Court. The proceedings against
that gentleman were brought forward by the town at
large, and the Council was asked to support the fund, but
the Town-clerk told them that they could not legally do
so. The Town-clerk held them strictl♦ to the law, and
told them that if they passed a resolution authorising
contribution, he (the Town-clerk) should refuse to sign
an order for its payment. If, then, they could not legally
contribute to a fund in support of proceedings essentially
for the benefit of the inhabitants, he thought they ought not
to spend the Corporate funds in supporting Mr. Mansfield
whilst defending an action for a decision of his which he
(Mr. Fernihough) believed was an illegal decision. The
fact of the Corporation doing so would be to render the
magistrates still more irresponsible than they now were,
which, be thought, they ought not to be. On all those
grounds he felt much satisfaction that counsel's opinion
had been taken on this question, and that that opinion
agreed with his own.
The proceedings of the committee, subject to the ex-
ception proposed by Mr. Hornby, were then unanimously
confirmed.

WATCH COMMITTEE-INCREASE OF SALARIES AND

OFFICERS.

The proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the Watch,
Lighting, Fire Police and Fire Prevention Committees,
comprised—resolution appointing six superintendents at
salaries of £156 per annum each; resolution to increase
the salary of the in-door superintendent, Mr. Robert
Clough, from £2OO to £235 per annum ; resolution to in-
crease the salary of Mr. William Cowan, chief-clerk in
the Police-office, from £l5O to £175 per annum ; resolu-
tion as to remuneration of clerks in the Dctective-office.

Air. J. A. Torus' moved the confirmation of the pro-
ceedings. He briefly alluded to the recommendations for
increased salaries and additional superintendents. Mr.
Tobin eulogised Mr. Clough's abilities and long servi-
tude, and remarked that the committee had thought that
the proposed increase was desirable on the ground that as
Mr. Clough was at the head of the detective department,
he ought not to be in an inferior position as regarded sa-
lary to the chief out-door superintendents. With refe-
rence to Mr. Cowan, he had been a long time in the
force and was a most valuable servant.
Mr. A. F. JONES called the attention of the committee
to the reckless manner in which the drivers of spring
carts were allowed to pass through the great thorouzli-
fares in the town. He understood that they were allowed
to trot, but that was an indefinite term.
Mr. THONISON.—Not in Bolton. (Laughter.)
Mr. JONES wished to ask the town clerk at what rate
the spring carts were allowed to proceed ?
Mr. THOMSON.-1-low many knots an hour ? (Laugh-
ter.)

The TOWN-CLERK replied that there was no regulation
as to how many knots, but they were. not allowed to drive
furiously.
Mr. JoNri:s went on to enumerate several instances in
proof of the drivers going through the streets in a reck-
less manner, to the great danger of the inhabitants. He
strongly urged upon the committee to rectify the evil.
Mr. PARKER, after some allusions to the subject which
had been referred to by Mr. Jones, said he did not rise to
make any objections to the proposed alterations for the
future regulations of the police force, but it did seem to
him that they were in some measure falling back into the
old system. lie would have preferred a recommendation
coming direct from the head constable, for improving the
efficiency ct the force, by the alterations and additions
now brought before the council. He presumed that the
alterations had been decided upon the tecorumendation of
Captain Greig, but still he (Mr. Parker) thought it ought
to have come before the council, in the first instance,
direct from that officer. After some further allusions,
respecting the improvements in the police force, Mr.
Parker strongly deprecated the use, in the day time, by
the police force, of what he called the " awful bludgeons"
which they carried about with them. In former years,
when he was connected with the watch committee, the
force were

not allowed to carry these bludgeons in the

day time, which were more calculated to knock down bulls
with than anything else. (Hear, hear.) These weapons
were only given to the police force to use in self defence—
they were not, to use them for the purpose of striking
girls with, and such like objects. It was understood that
they were to carry them only at night, and that during
the day time they should carry simply a cane. He hoped
that the watch committee and Captain Greig would make
an order to the effect that the police officers should not
carry these awful weapons during the day time. He ex-
pected to have heard something from the chairman of the
watch committee respecting the murder said to have been
committed by ono of the officers whilst using his stick.
Mr. Aid. TURNER understood from the chairman of
the watch committee that on Saturday last the committee
passed a vote of thanks to Captain Greig for the arrange.
ments he made during the recent election. lie (Mr.
Turner) was very glad of it, for he was sure that no one
who saw the immense crowds who were present during
the proceedings last week would refuse to thank Captain
Greig for the able and efficient arrangements he had
made. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. B. LLOYD secondea the motion. Having taken
a very active part in the recent election, he had had an
opportunity of seeing the arrangements made by Captain
Greig, and he was much obliged to him for the manner
in which he had conducted the marshalling of the force.
(Hear, hear.)
The MAyou..—lt may be right to say, that the magis-
trates on Saturday passed a similar resolution. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. H. Hosa.saw was much surprised that Mr. Mac-
donald should have been appointed by the Watch Com-
mittee an officer in the police-force at a time when ar-
rangements were making to elevate the character of the
force. It did seem to him that whilst the Watch Com-
mittee were engaged in improving the force they should
have appointed a person to an office in the force, who had
been dismissed by another committee of the Council for
insubordination and neglect. [Mr. Macdonald is one of
the six additional superintendents appointed.]
Mr. ROPERS defended the appointment of Mr. Mac-
donald. He might, on a former occasion, have been
guilty of some little indiscretion ; but he (Mr. Rogers)
thought, nevertheless, that Mr. Macdonald would turn
out to be an excellent officer in the force. He might say
that he believed Mr. Macdonald was out of his element
in any other situation. (Hear, hear).
TitolusoN was glad the appointment had been
made, for the merchants of Liverpool were under a deep
debt of gratitude to Mr. Macdonald, which they could
never repay, for the way in which fires were now put out.
i It was at his suggestion that the plans now in use were

-
adopted. di. B. L. col'n, as a member of the Watch Corn-
mittee, conld only say that the appointment of Air.

Affirdonftici vv

NES, although admitting that Mr. Macdonald
lding and somewhat insubordinate as a serva
not think th
force, hoe
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member of

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e he would

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he wondered how Macdonald had borne what he had had
to submit to as well as he did.
Mr. Tostx, in reply, said that with reference to the
alleged harshness of the Police with their sticks, referred
to by Mr. Parker, he (Mr. Tobin) might remark that
whenever he had occasion to address the members of the
force, his advice to them always was, never to use their
sticks in the discharge of their duty if they could avoid
doing so. Mr. Parker had said that allusion ought to
have been made to the death, last week, of the poor
woman, which was charged to one of the members of the
force. Now considering that an inquiry was how going
forward in another place, he (Mr. Tobin) thought he
should have been acting very imprudently had he made
any allusion at all to the matter. lie thanked Mr. Turner
for the kind manner in which he had spoken of the police
arrangements made for the election. With regard to the
appointment of Macdonald to an office in the police force,
to which an objection had been made by some gentlemen
present, he might remark that it was a subject of consider-
able discussion with the committee, and after serious de-
liberation, they came to the conclusion that the fact
of Macdonald's insubordination when connected with the
water committee ought not to be urged against him in this
case, because. on a former occasion, when Macdonald
made an application for an office under the corporation,
he was told, on that application being refused, that it was
open to him to make an application on any future occa-
sion for another office, and that application he had now
made. _

Ti‘e proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.
DOCK COMMITTEE-THE NEW STREETS IN WAPPING.

The proceedings of the dock committee having been
read, and their confirmation being moved by Mr.
Charles Turner,
Mr. HORNBY enquired of the chairman of the commit-
tee, whether any arrangement had yet been made between
the health committee and the dock committee respecting
the level of the new streets in Wapping alongside of the
proposed new dock, about which there had been such a
dispute between the two committees ?
Mr. TURNER was sorry that this question had not been
brought to a conclusion, nor did he see any present like-
lihood of a satisfactory settlement being arrived at. Mr.
Turner then at considerable length went into the details
of the differences of opinicn between the dock surveyor
and the borough engineer respecting the bearing of the
act of parliament as to the level of the new streets, and
the way in which property in the neighbourhood would be
affected by it. Since the formation of the new streets, it
was found that some of them would have to be made
lower than Pie originally intended level, and the
Probability was, that the consequential damage to pro-
perty in the neighbourhood would be correspondingly in-
creased. Now the dock surveyor said that it was not
necessary to alter the level of the new streets, for dock
purposes, but the town-clerk being referred to, be gave it
as his opinion that the health committee, under the sana-
tory act, had the power of assigning the levels of the
streets, and that the parliamentary powers possessed by
the dock committee could not affect the general powers of
the health committee. Now the clock solicitor took exactly
an opposite view of the two acts of parliament, and con-
tended that the dock committee by their act had the
power only of assigning the levels. The town-clerk
had taken counsel's opinion on the question, and counsel's
opinion had also been taken on the other side, the result
of which was that the two opinions were altogether
opposed to each other. It was subsequently proposed by
the sub.committec of the dock committee, to whom the
question was referred, to submit the matter to the arbi-
tration of Mr. John Stewart, but the health committee
would not agree to this proposition. Mr. S. Holme was
next proposed to look into the question along with Mr.
Stewart, but to this proposition the health committee also
demurred. The dock committee then proposed to divide
the expense of any consequential damage that might be
incurred by an alteration in the levels of the streets
between the health committee and themselves, but the
Town-clerk advised the health committee—he had no
doubt, honestly, according to his opinion—that they could
not legally assent to the proposition. He (Mr. Turner)
believed that the settlement of the question was now left
to the dock solicitor and the Town-clerk, and the result,
he hoped, would be satisfactory both to the dock com-
mittee and that council.

Mr. H. BORNBY expressed an opinion to the effect
that it would be better to refer the whole question to the
arbitration of some eminent legal authority. The ques-
tion was clearly one for a legal authority to deal with,
as it referred solely to the construction of an act of par-
liament. Mr. Hornby urged the importance of a speedy
settlement of the dispute. The good management of the
Health Committee of that Council, and of the Dock
Estate, were both questions of the gteatest importance
to the town, and we had an equal interest in both. (Hear,
hear).
Mr. TURNER thought it might be left to the Town.
clerk and the dock solicitor.
The TOWN• CLEnK did not think that Mr. North and
himself would ever agree upon the question. When
they met on a former occasion they could not even agree
on a case for counsel, and the result was that they put
separate questions to counsel, and received separate opi-
nions ; and the more opinions they received the stronger
were they opposed to each other. It was certainly pro-
posed by the Dock Committee to refer the question to
Mr. Stewart and Mr. Holme ; but there was an objection
to that, on the ground that the dispute was strictly on a
question arising out of an act of parliament, and nothing
else.

Mr. PARKER.—He understood that the question in
dispute was whether there should be a fall of three feet in
the intended street.

Mr. TURNER.—No; it is whether it shall be on the
existing level or not.
Mr. PARKER thought, then, that the present levels
would be equally advantageous with the other, and he did
not think it should be altered.

Mr. TURNER.—We shall go on with the streetunder the
existing levels.
Mr. LANGSDALE.—Then, Mr. Town-clerk, I suppose
the only thing we shall have to do will be to apply for an
injunction, will it not ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Yes, that is one way of proceed-
ing, of course. There is great loss and injury being
sustained by the question remaining unsettled. A con-
siderable quantity of the land in the neighbourhood has
been built upon, and many people are still applying for
land to build up rm.
Mr. JAMES HoLmE.—Could we not go on with the
present levels ?_ _ . .

The Towlc-CLEnx.--If the street is made on the exist-
ing levels this council will be inundated with applications
to set it right, and in the meantime we shall have to decide
whose duty it is to put it right.
Mr. JAatrs HouME.—Could you not go on according
to the altered levels ?

Mr. TURNER.—No, sir, because the act of Parliament
says that we must eo on according to the present levels.
Mr. HoLtre.—Then T can only say that if it was your
own property you would soon find out c way to settle the
dispute. . _ .

After some further discussion, in the course of which
Several members of the Council spoke of the great desira-
bility of having the question settled, it was suggested that
Mr. Stewart should attend the respective committees with
a view of bringing about a settlenient.
Mr. STEWART was afraid that the rate-payers and bur-
gesses were going to be sacrificed to a struggle for power
between the two Committees. (Hear, hear.)

The To-ws-CLEax.--No. The Health Committee have
never taken any step but that which the Dock Committee
asked them to do. The only thing that he accused the
Duck Committee of was this—why did they not take the
course Ow were now pursuing eighteen months ego,
instead of doing so after a quantity of the land had been
built upon ?