Star.
London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

I,

cdle-t Magistrate : and it was a conduct for tvhich
he hid never been accused by the lovers of their coun-
try—Wear, hear). In •conclusion,. the Honourable
Centieman again expressed that he saw no ground
whatever for acceding to the present motion.
Mr. HOBHOUSE conceived it necessary to ex-
plain the grounds on Which he should think it his
duty to give his vote for a proposition represented
by the last Honourable speaker as SO absurd. In
,intr, this, he felt that lie needed that indulgence
which the House was in the habit' of conceding to
young .!enthers. He was aware that in some re-
spects he stood in a peculiar situation, and the dith,
culties under which he laboured were increased by
his attempting to answer a Gentleman of the charac-
ter and experience of the Honourable Member who
)tad just sat down—Vicar, hear). • That Honourable
-Member was as well acquainted with the forms of
the House, as the Public were with the dignity of
character. He had said that the House could not
into the proposed inquiry because there was no
iLrecedent. But it appeared to him, that unless there
should be something peculiarly distorted in his man-
ner of viewing it, this subject was one which Parlia-
ment ought to take into consideration. They had
been told not to meddle with the criminal jurisdic-
tion of the country, but there were many occasions
when judicial subjects had been inquired into by that
Howe. The Honourable Member had stated, that
the law and the Constitution prevented it from such
an exercise of its powers by refusing it the right of
imposing an oath; but in 'how many cases had not
the House judicially interfered without oaths, and
even without inquiry? Had it never inflicted punish
resent on individuals without any investigation of
their case? What the worthy Alderman asked was,
not that such punishment should be inflicted, but
that whilst the House inquired into the machinations
against Ministers, it should not refuse to inquire into
the machinations against the people—(Hear, hror).—
The worthy Alderman had said, that when he had
applied to the Secretary of State, an answer had been
returned, discouraging further investigation. lie did
not see why, on these documents, the House should
say there should be no inquiry whatever. When the
Ministers spoke on former occasions of plots. against
themselves and the Government, it had.been imme-
dtr conceded that investigation was necessary.
WV, when the conspiracies seemed directed against
fie People, should not the same necessity be found to
exist? The Honourable Member had said, that the
Muse could take no decided step on the subject; but
the proceeding recommended was not half so sum-
mary as that on which the. House had acted on ano-
thtv occacicm. Here was a charge in which the
si:flny of the House of. Commons was concerned,
wiiist in the other case there had been only some-
tr.;ng written and printed about the House! The
fr.:t time he had taken.his seat in Parliament, he had
heard it said, that the people must be reduced. He
6:aught, or. the contrary, that the House should
shew that it felt sympathy for the distresses, and even
the suspicions of the people: for certainly there were
izspicions that Edwards had been employed to fo-
mnt the late plot. He did not say that Govern-
ment was guilty ; neither did he say that it was in-
nocent; inquiry alone could decide the question.—
:,e Honourable Gentleman had appealed to ancient
times, and to an ancient Republic, and he (Mr. Hob-
/muse) did not call this a Monarchy,i but, as it had
been termed by James IL a Commonwealth. But
'what was the result of that appeal ? It did not ap-
pear by history that either Fulvia or the Allobroges
had been employed by Cicero to watch the plot. And
the opinion of persons in ancient times against the
employment of Spies, was by no means doubtful.—
Suetonius, in his Lives of the Roman Emperors,
reckoned " Delatores inter adveraz tempera," and
added, that Titus had not followed thesexample of
those who had come before him, bat had ordered all
informers and spies to be scourged in the public
markets, and banished to desert islands. He believed
that Constantine punished them with death. Caligula
was wont to say that he had no ears for informers ;
aad Domi:ian, before he had adopted that injurious
system, declared that " Princips qni Deldures non
insiigat." He had paid some attention to
this subject in consequence of having found on a
'former night, that the defence of spies had not pro-
ceeded from these who employed them, but from
a Learned Member who had hitherto rendered
many important services to the cause of Liberty.—
Bis researches bad perfectly satisfied him, that spies
were viewed in the same light in all ages. All he
had found in Machiarel on the subject was, that Go-
vernors must employ troops as well as men. Montes-
quieu said, that even in a monarchy spies should not
employed, and that--,s L'infamie du nom montre
Giffamie de /a chose." Those who maintained that
they might be used under a good Government, had
only to alter the word good into bad, and their posi-
tion would be correct. It was said that spies might
be useful, if they were not suffered to become insti-
gators, but he did not see how that was practicable.
A spy lived on the .fruits of his ingenuity ; if, there-
fore, be wished to be well paid, it was scarcely pos-
sible that he should not contrive some plot. Be-
sides, he could learn nothing of those that might be
carried on, without appearing to go hand and heart
in the scheme. Nay, it was probable that he would
speak even more violently than the rest, because he
was not afraid of being detected. Upon all these
grounds, he trusted that the House would conde-
scend to entertain the motion, and shew that the
Commons participated in the feelings of the country.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH said, that he had seen one
of these men who had been seduced into the late plot,
not by Edwards, but by his own neighbour, and
chiefly because he was in the habit of reading sedi-
ous publications—( Hear, hear).—After this con-
sion had been made, he (Mr. Butterworth) wished
lave it repeated before a Magistritte, but the man
been so terrified by the party with which he had
.n connected, that he had begged not to be pro-
ved in public. He (Mr. Butter worth) had sent for
i this evening, on account of the present motion,
had asked him if he knew anything of Edwards?
had replied, that he knew nothing of him ; but
since the late executions, one of the parties con-
ned in the plot had told him, that Edwards had
a present at one of their early meetings,but never
hear).--He had asked him, too, whe-
he thought that the chief conspirators had been
wn and led into the plot ? Hisinswer had been,
'hy, Sir, do you suppose they were children!—
.1 were men of spockunderstandii, and wanted

no one to exci!e them, for they were desperate in the
business"—(Hear, hear).—He (Mr. Butterworth)
was really shocked to see a motion of the kind as the
present brought forward:—(Hear, hear).—lt was of a
piece with the questions put to Thistlewood at the
• moment of his execution—questions utterly devoid
of common feeling—( !fear, hear).—He believed
That the speeches on this occasion would do great
mischief ; similar ones had powerfully contributed to
produce the late disturbances, and he should not
himself have spoken, but in common justice to the
Government of the country—(Hear, hear).
Mr. HUME defended his Hon. Friend the worthy
Alderman, from the blame cast upon him for having
endeavoured to ascertain the truth at the moment
when an unfortunate man was preparing to appear
before his .thigaroa, by questions which could not
wound his feelings. He considered that the solitary
instance adduced by the last Hon. Member, of a man
who knew nothing of Edwards, was no answer to
the thirty arguments and thirty depositions which.
had been proJuced—(Near, hear).
Mr. W. WYNN declared, that during the number
of years he had been in that House, he never recol-
lected any measure having been brought forward on
such extraordinary grounds as the present. If the
use of spies was entirely done away, it would be im-
possible ever to defeat any conspiracy. There was
not a shadow of argument to justify the present
motion, and therefore he should oppose it.
Mr. DENMAN considered that to be a most ex-
traordinary doctrine which treated with indulgence
and sympathy the most,fiegraded and noxious mate-
rials of which the human race was composed ; and
he looked upon such doctrines as sapping all the
foundations on which social intercourse and happi-
ness rested. There was nothing very novel in the
present motion ; for some feiv years ago, in conse-
quence of the disfurbances in the North of England,
similar motions were made ; and it was not consi-
dered irregular to call for the appointments of Com-
mittees to inquire into those disturbances, although
no legislative proceedings afterwards, took place.—
Such Committees were moved for after the distorts-
ances of Derby and Manchester ; Sir Samuel ito-
milly then voted in favour of them, but they were
not agreed to. The object of the present motion was
to see whether the proceedings had been properly
pursued in the cases of the persons lately convicted of
Treason. He would not go so far as to say, that on
particular occasions, spies ought to be employed. In
justification of that principle, the case of Cataline's
conspiracy had been-referred to ; but the cases were
quite different; hem a set of unfortunate men had
been instigated to commit ctimes ; but in the case
of the Roman conspiracy,the Consul, when he heard
of the danger which threatened the State, was bound
in duty to send a spy for the purpose of knowing
what the conspirators were doing—(Hear. hear).—
But the question was, w ho did burnish the late con-
spirators with money ? Who was it that beset Thistle-
wobd, and made him an active instrument for his
own destruction? He would ask if this was a proper
employment fur a spy ; or was it to be a manufactory
for crime? He was far from intending to impute to
the Ministers that they would authorise a spy to act
in this manner—(Hear). But the moment they em-
ployed a spy, they took on themselves a most awful
responsibility. and assured to themselves the cer-
tainty of spreading mischief which it was their du:y
to prevent. He contended, that his Honourable
Friend (Alderman Wood) had acted very properly in
putting the questions which he had put to Thistle-
wood, on the morning of his execution, because it
was necessary to ascertain how far Edwards had in-
stigated him in carrying on his plot. It would have
been most important for the prisoners if that man
had been called as a witness, because then they would
have had the benefit of his cross-examination,
through their Counsel. His life and character might
then be inquired into, and disclesures might take
place which would have a powerful effect, if not in
causing the acquittal of the accused, at least of in-
fluencing the Crown to extend mercy towards them.
Then, in the want of such information as might thus
have been obtained, the present inquiry was called for.
If it should appear that there had been tampering
with infamous characters, and that -Ministers had
overstepped the fair line of gaining information,
there could not be a fitter object of jealous inquiry.
This was not the first occasion in which complaints
had been made against the employment of infatnnus
spies. On the trial of Watson and others, the spy"
Gashes appeared to have been the first person en-
gaged in carrying on the plot, and then to have
turned informer—(A cry of No, no ! from the Minis-
terial side of the House). Again he would say, that
the wretched men who were tried at Derby had been
led into the acts they committed by the spy Oliver—
(;lear, hear).—Of this he had not the smallest doubt.
-He told the unhappy victims of his artifice that the
people were in a state of insurrection throughout
most parts of the country, and they might very soon
expect many thousands to join their standard. He
thus encouraged, impelled, and animated the un-
happy persons to those acts which involved them in
rain. He contended, that the Counsel for. the pri-
'soneis' had a right to have the benefit of the cross-
examination of Edwards on the late trials ; and he
was sure the Counsel for the prisoners had not the
smallest doubt of Edwards having actively instigated
them to commit acts of treason. He contended that
the whole of this Spy System was inconsistent with a
good government, and destructive of all public and
private morality. If spies were to be employed by
the Ministers of. Government, they would be employed
by the various Public Offices.- The Bank employed
spies, for they sent persons to seduce men into the
commission of climes--(Cries of No, no!). He had
opportunities of knowing the fact at trials in this
country. With a strong feeling that the Spy System
was carried to an extent which should never have
been allowed, he would, if the worthy Alderman
pressed the House to a division, rote with him.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL maintained, that
there was not a tittle of evidence to shew that Ed-
wards had been employed by the Government; but
Government had received his information, which en-
abled them to defeat one of the most horrible plots
that ever was known in this country. What occa-
sion was there, he would ask, to call Edwards as a
witness, when there was a sufficiency of other wit-
nesses to establish the guilt of the prisoners? Was
it not known, that when Monument anckThistlewood
were proceeding to the Treasury to be examined, the
latter spoke to Monument, old desired him to tell

. . . .
the Council, that a Min of the name of Edwards had
brought him to his misfortunes; and when Monu-
ment told him he never heard of Edwards, Thistle-
,wood replied....e, Never mind that; do you say as I
tell yOu, and I will describe him"—.(Hear, hear!)—
The worthy Alderman had stated', that Edwards was
the oily man that had brought the parties into the
plot; but the evidence of Monument, ilyden, and
others clearly proved that this was not the fact ; but
that Thistlewood, Brunt, and Wilson, were the se-
ducers, who brought others into the plot. So far
from Edwards having any oratorical powei s, he never
addressed any persons in his life, nor did one of the
witnesses state that he had ever proposed any plan.
This fact was confirmed by Brunt himself, after hi,
conviction, and just before he received sentence; for
he and Ings acknowledged that the assassination of
Ministers was their object, and they gloried in it!—
But then he said that he ought not to }Ave been con-
victed of Treason for that. Ile said he was sorry
lie had not murdered Lord Castlereagh and Lord
Sidmouth. Then how could the worthy Alderman
say that Edwards had instigated him ? Ani did not
Thistlewood make a similar declaration of his wish
and intention to murder the Ministers ? That con-
spirator had made an address, in hich, from its
composition, he had been evidently assisted, of which
the following was a passage:

" A few hours hence and I shall be no more : hut the nightly,.
breeze which will whistle over the silent grave that shall protect
me from its keenness, will bear to your restless pillow the me-
mory of one who lived but for his country, and died when liberty
and justice had been driven from its confines by a set of villains.
For life, as it respects myself, I care not; but, while yet I may.
I would rescue my memory from the calumny which I donlit
not will be industriously heaped upon it, when it will be no
longer in my power to protect it. I would explai • the motives
' which induced sae to conspire against the Ministers of his Ma-
jesty, and I would contrast them with those which these very
Ministers have acted upon in leading me to my ruin !"
—And this was the man, who was said to have bet:lo
instigated by Edwards ! He could not, therefore,
lelp complaining of the assumption of the worthy
Alderman. How, he asked, could the worthy Al-
-derman assert that Edwards had supplied the parties
with abundance of money, when it appeared in evi-
dence, that all the money among the parties on one
occasion was the sum of six shillings in silver in the
possession of Thistlewood, and a one pound note in
the possession of Brunt. He must, then, join in the
censures thrown out against the worthy Alderman
for the part he had taken in putting such questions
as he had done to Thistiewood—(Hear, /war!)—
There had been instances of persons. speaking to cul-
prits just before their execution, for the purpose of
drawing confessions from them, or exhorting them
to the observance of their religious duties ; and these
things were done with thrrist benevolent motives.
But the present was the first time he had ever heard
of a person going with a packet of questions, and
putting them to a condemned culprit just before his
execution, for the purpose of picking up information
from him relative to others—(/fear, hear, hear ! )
This was the first time he heard of ,such a thing,
and
.he hoped it would
.be the • last. (Here the
Learned Gentleman read from a paper the questions
which had been put by Mr. Alderman Wood to
Thistlewood, on the morning of his execution). He
then asked.whether the worthy Alderman had not had
a communication, Within thelast'twenty-four hours,
with Preston ?—(Hear, hear).- Believing that many
persons had been in the plot who were not yet in
custody, it would have been the duty of the worthy
Alderman, as a Magistrate, to havetriedi by his ques-
tions, to find out who those parties 'Were, instead of
seeking for information which was to be made the
ground of a charge against Ministers. But it was
fortunate for the ends of justice, that Thistlewood did
not lend himself to the worthy Alderrnan'S' views ;
but that he gave to one question, an answer :which
seemed to defeat them; for when asked, what money
Edwards had given him ? he answereit—not much.
It, therefore, there could be any doubt of the fact, the
answer of Thistlewood proved they had not supplied
them with money. But the conspirators had money ;
and it was well known who supplied them with it.—
Here he must observe, that there were no swords
found on the conspirators, and therefore nothing could
be more erroneous than to say that Edwards had sup-
plied them with new swords. And from whom did
the worthy Alderman receive this information?—
Why, from men who were engaged 'in the views of
the conspirators--who were deeply implicated in the
plot—(Hear, hear).—lt was proved by Monument,
: that the design of throwing all the odium on Ed-
wards, originated with Thistlewood : and the House
would now see how that suggestion had been follow-
ed up. The intent of all this was to throw a slur on
the evidence by which the conspirators were con-
victed, and to hold out a suspicion that Government
was instrumental in urging the culprits to the acts
'they had committed. it had been said, thwt Castles
was a Government spy ; but that was not the fact.
He never had been a Government spy : for after be.
ing implicated in the plot, he gave information to
Government. Nor-was Oliver the instigator of the
traitors at Derby, for he never had been among
them ; and he never saw Brandreth in his life.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said he had heard no
speech which convinced him so much of the neces-
sity of agreeing to the motion as that of the Learned
Gentleman. What was there to prevent the House
from going into the inquiry ? It was contrary to the
fact, that the culprits had declared they had not
been instigated by Edwards; for, on the contrary,
they declared lie had been the contriver and promo.
ter of the conspiracy. The censures thrown out
against the worthy Alderman by the Attorney-Gene-
ral and the Honourable Member for Dover, wa.
most unfair, most untrue, and would tend to prevent
men from doing their duty in that House. For his
part, he maintained that the worthy Alderman de-.
served the thanks of the Public for the line of con-
duct pursued by him. It was true the conspirators I
did confess their guilt ; and if they had not done so.
he should have considered the evidence altogether
unworthy of belief—(Laughter an the Ministeria:
Benches,). With respect to spies, he must °peal)
protest against the employment of such persons.—
lc was said, however, to be the unhappy condition of
Ministers, that they were obliged to them—
but he agreed with the legal Maxim in this as In
other cases—" Qui facet per alum, Acit.per se
In ancienCtitnes.spies were never made use of except
under the most tyrannical andspdious governments.
The existence of them now, skewed that *there was
something wrong in the Government, and that there
avas a general spirit of discontent throttghout the

. . • . . .
cotmtry. It was a subject of dissatisfact on eve
where, that such infamous persons were employed;
for people could not help thinking, that they actually
led others into the commission of crime. There wai
one thing that made A deep impression on the public
mind, and that was 001 the Government Were ac.
quainted with the conspiracy long before the time
when a man delivered a letter to Lord Harrowby ;
and he must on that account say, it was highly cul-
pable in Ministers to go on conniving at the conspi-
racy, and allowing die unhappy men to go on to
their ruin, while the man who male victims of them
was deriving a profit from his infamy ; and whO
else but that man—he meant Edwards—could have
supplied the conspirators with money?—(Hear).—
Was there not reason to euspect, then, that Edwards
must have been siq plied by Government with the
sums which enable.l him to assist the plans of the -
conspirators? • Therefore he ~vopld vote for this in-
quiry, because the condemnatin or exculpation of
Ministers depended on the result of it. For his own
part, he alihorred and detested Spier and informers;
he coosidered them the very pests of society. The
system of employing such miscreants, destroyed ail
the principles of morality, and all the good feeling
that ought to exist in a free country, and effaced all
the traces of that good old English character, which
once made the English People beloved and admired
all over the world. But these were the useful in-
struments of Ministers ; and each of them might
say, with naiy in the play, " Si ego dignns num hac
contu India at to indignus qui fac:Tes tamcm." He
again declared, that he hoped he was imbr2d with
that old and vulgar prejudice of hatred to spies, as
much as any common vulgar Englishman could be!
Montesquieu had said, that spies would not be used
by.a good Government ; hut Machiavel had gone a
little tardier, for he maintainej that they argued a
state of distrust and deraet;ement in the State where
• they were permitted. There was an instinctive anti..
pnthy on die part of the I''ople to thiS race of per-
sons. If his Maje,ty's Ministers, or,. rather, if the
President of the Board of Controul, who was so much
in the habit of publicly speaking, would only try the
effect of this topic upon English feeling, he would be
quite surprised at the effect produced—(A
The greeting which would follow wouldforciloy re-
mind him of Satan on the floor of Hell, amidst hiss‘
ing Spirits! He did hope, in conclusion, that the
public mind would be satisfied by such an inquiry as
that proposed. If his Majesty's Niinisters did stand
clear of all .connexion w with that odious creature Ed-
-wards, in Goo's name let them shew to the world
that they did stand clear ! In the meantime he should,
support the grounds of the inquiry—(Near, hear).

Mr. CA NN ING then rose. Ile began by stating, that his
intention had been not to have interfered in the present discus-
sion ; but he was neither satisfied with the state in which this
question had been left by the SiWr :hes which they had already.
heard from either side of the 'Luse, nor by that of the Honour.-
able Baronet who had just now spoken. he objected betides
to matter which Rad been introduced into the debate, of which'
he regretted the introduction ; and had the measure been kft
merely upon those grounds upon which the worthy Alderman
introduced it, he should not have now thought propei- to ad.
dress the House upon the subject. The Honourable Baronet,
however, had given It a form altogether different from that in
which it had first appeared. Ile (Mr. Canning) had many ob-
jections to the motion of the Honourable and worthy Alder-
man; and it seemed that the Honourable Baronet in his argu-
ment had assumed what were mere assertions as facts, and hair
then proceeded to argue upon them. This was the great evil of
the Honourable Baronet's speech. He had not merely assumed
these facts as proved, but as proved incontestably, and beyond.
all contradiction. The Honourable Baronet had said, " When
you employ spies, you employ a set of creatures to whom tfie
people of this country are exceedingly averse." Now, pritriel
facie, he thought it uo very heavy charge against the Govern-.
ment of the country that they. had detected a conspiracy, of
which, if it were not the grand object, it was at least the avowed
one; not solely to dispatch a few obnoxious Individuals; but
through their blood, to arrive at the destruction of the Metro-
polis, and at the rum of the country. His Majesty's Ministers
did not take this as a merit to themselves ; it was no stets[ of
their's that this plot bad been frustrated; for it had haitpened
by a inost fortunate circumstance that it had been 'timely-de-
tected, before its diabolical objects could be carried intoexecu-
tion. It was most extraordinary, that the object of the cmtspi-
rators not being denied, the iMinisters should be blamed fret
this: but their guilt arose out of this circumstance—they had
employed human means—they has 'availed themselves of irttelli-
gence-rthey waited for no sudden revelations. Unlike the
puritans of olden times, they did not calmly wait for the Lois,
but they employed human means ; and, as it always happened,
and always would happen in these plots, information was con-
veyed to them; and the plans of the conspirators were revealed,-
and finally defeated. If they were to be told, on responsible
authority, that the Constitution was about to he overturned, but
at the same time were to reject every means of detection which
didnot come to them from unexceptionable characters—if they
were to believe no man, as to the existence of such a criminal
association, whom they Could nut take to their bosoms, and to
whom they could not confide the dearest seer( is of their souls,
(which was the hypothesis of the lionourable Baronet,) how
could they avail themselves of any previous intelligence of ap.
proaching danger? Here he would ask, was it possible for ha-
man ingenuity to imagine anything so monstrous as this posi-
tion? The Honourable Baronet had taken it very mach to
heart that there had been upon that (the Ministerial) side of the
House, the appearance of what he called a smile, but which he
might have called a laugh, at certain positions which had- been
laid down in the course of his speech. Ile had insinuates), that
he did expect that the subject before the House would have
been a protection from everything like levity, even if it were to
' be supported by the most extraordinary sallies of wit; and, no
doubt, the Honourable Baronet had found by that time, that
I absurdity was.more ludicrous than wit. Surely the House could
not be insensible to, they could not resist, the glorious absurdity
of the proposition relative to the putting aside and rejecting the
evidence of the man who came to inform them of the plot. Now,
what would the Honourable Baronet have done, in a case of
any private house, where he might be informed, by some indi-
vidual connected with a gang, that there was a design to set tire
to the house, and cut the throats of the inmates? Supposing
one of the gang were to come a day or two before, and Live no-
tice of the fact, was it meant that the master of the house should
say to the informer', " Go, spotted traitor—traitor to your
friends; retire, and hide your detested head in some distant
village; I will not hear of your information ?" Now, if the II•-
nourable Baronet alone were in suck a case, there could be nu
person to blame but hiMself; he ctiuld be only answerable for
himself ; and if he chose to live In magnificent solitude, it was
matter of little consequence; but if he had any others under his
tutelage. if he had children or ,
women under that tutelage, he
( Mr. Canning) would he glad to Inlay in what manner he pro-
posed to settle the balahce of moral duty between this romantic
feeling and the base desertion of those children and females?
The Honourable Baronet had chosen to ridicule the proper dis-
tinction, which hail been so clearly defined by the Honourable
and Learned fie..tleman oppeSslte (Mr. Brougham), between in-
stigators and infoi wars. lie (Mr. Canni4) defeueted that deh-
nhion, and the -irl;entent fourdt ti by the Horton:able Barone: in
opposition to it was one which ce.uld not be sustained: It yr: s
against the system of an inet:vidual goihg among these corspia
raters, and becoming, :s it were, part of them, in order to divide .
their strength. But the Heneurable Baronet, bee mmy others,
. seemed to think that there was a difference between the chats
racters of an informer and a spy, and that he would accept inter- -
'nation from the one while he would reject it from the other.
Now, if a man came on Wednesday, sun told tit m there vr:a a
dreadful plot in agitation, which was to be
,c:ertied into effect
upon the following Friday, were they to accerr;he first informs_
tion; and take no steps to satisfy themselves of the Iprepsration of
the latter ? Why, he woe' I put such a'ease as that totk.- e Ace
casuists4.-these aielita:t dividers et .mondity-s- these !retorters or

t.

~ .. .

, 4

.~..~...

iostice scruple, and by erains—how they would justify to
theraselves such a e,g'eci ? 11 it had unfortunately happened
that some pet of the Me-cora:llr Baronet's speech hail already
excited a loty;h, surely they aught to be redoubled oven his head
at the mere mention of a pesition so monstrous, that it had
never yet entered into the mind of man to entertain any the 'like.
'trey: were required to receive imperf.ct information, in pre-
farence to that of r. better tied mare exact description; hut it it
w. re prolser to reteive information at all, it was driveling; to
.:tat it was not prneer m receive that which was meat
to themselves or to their cowitry. If rot, they mute main-
tain this stupid doctrine--that they must shut their ears to dan-
gers which were either actually at their door, or were appre-
hended to, exist in the country. They must not suppose, that in
Olt notice there were any individuals who would wish to in-
spee couseirators with c- nfidence, or to give security to treason.
lie must not say so; but this he would say, that if aoy man had
wished to make out that this circle of treason-was, in fact, no
other than a golden chain of confidence, he would h.)ve urged
ealetly such atguments as they had heard that night. It was un-
par:lam:Mary to attrihute motives; but he would declare. that
if the preeent motion succeeded, the next conspiracy woeld alma.
Ile bad no wish to disparage the popularity of the Honourable
Aldermen, nor to dereee the trophy which bad been erected in
the City to Lis name. He had no desire to do other than honour
to this second Whittirgtuu! and, in divesting him of the conse-
quence:. of his rash and unfortunate motion, his wish was to re-
stare him, pure ant unseilied, to that elevation which he had
r) deservedly obtained. It certainly did strike Mm with amaze-
ment, that that which had been noiaed through all the News-
papers, to all the world, (we suppose the conversation between
Mr. Alderman Wood and Thisthreeod) had formed no pert of
the worthy Alderman's opening speech. But where, all this
time, was the charge against Edwards, of money said to have
been given by him to Thiselevvood ? Could the worthy Alder-
man have really obtained the dying accusation of Thistlewood,
it would hive been exalted into the legacy of a dying saint !
But this bad not been obtained. The utmost which could he
got from hint wee, that Edwards bad supplied Thistlewood with
money—that it ,speared Edwards was All active :gent ; but it
31.ntild have appeared that Edwards bad so supplied Thietle-
wood fre.piently, , censtieely, without stint or list what
did he do'? It resulted that the supply bad been at various
times a one-pound note. But surely all this time. there were
other ways of proceeding against Edwards, provided the worthy
Alderman had sutficient al...muds? If Ise had. why Cid not the
I lon. Gentleman, and those who supported bins prefer a bib of
h ulicialent ? rot what bad be done? Why, be had complained
that Led :zielmouth would not grant the warrant. Why, were
liecreter les of Slate obliged to grant warrants on every deposieun
which an Alderman might think worthy of being fop owe d up by
one? Undoubtedly Aldermen were great mere— rd Mayors
were great me u—but Secretaries of State were not their SitrVAIItS.
Ilut, really, he would suggest to the worthy Alderman that he
must go the right way to justice: be must be content to jig en
in the same road with others. It had been somewhere nbsarved,
that there was no Royal road to geometry, so neither was there
any Alder manic road to justice I—(A laugh). The form of the
question before them was matter of little consequence. They
were cell_d upon to take into consideration certain unsworn
pieces :tf paps r. So far as the names of some of the witnesses
were known, it appeared that they had been acccmplices in the
late b arrible plat—and for the others whoxe names were not
known, it was clear that they had been guilty of misprision of
treason. Ile zektel then, whether they would adopt a motion
of this extraordloary nature, merely became of a few rhodomon-
tades which had been uttared by the worthy Alderman, or by
the Honourable Baronet and his man !—(Hear, hear). The effect
of granting that motion would be, to give heart to all platters
and dine:bets. A contrary conduct would leave the treason
just in that state in which all newtons should be—by instilling
into the minds of those who had embarked in them the fear of
baiag be:rayed by each orhar—(The Right Hon. Cattleman at
clown a hiu3 a saes from the Treasury Bench).
Sir Fit:INCAS BUtiDISTI did not mean to follow all the
stupid, absurd, and senseless exaggerations of the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat dowu—( Hear, hear).—lle did not
Man to trouble the House by any observation upon what the
!tight lion. Gentleman perhaps called argument. What he
(Sir Francis lkirdett) objected to was, the keeping in pay a set
of spies, who went up aid down the country putting in practice
all their insidious and mischievous arts: lie merely wished to
set himself right with the House upon this point, hut was not
going to trespass on tle it time by making any further comment
upon the absurd, senselits, stupid, and ridiculous observations of
the Itieht !ton. Gentleman Cries (.1' Spoke, spoke J !
Mr. CANNING was rising to explain, but—
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT again wee Inutile, and address-
kg Mr. Canning, said-= What did you mean by saying • may.
ran I"—{Hear hear).— If you charge the worthy Alderman
with being drunk with applause, you appear to me to Le drunk
with insolence !—(Hear, hear).
-alt. CANNING said, the Honourable Baronet saw and
It.ard the thins that were not. With respect to his giving a
certain friend of the Hots. Baronet the title of his son, he did so
in allusion to some speeches be had read, which were delivered
during the recess, in which he had been designated as standing
in that relation to the Honourable Baronet.—(The Right lion.
G.:sideman alluded, no doubt, to some part of the speeches de-
livered on the Hustings in Covent-garden, in the course of the
late Election).
Mr. BROUGHAM was anxious to clear himself from the
tnisrveresentation which he had suffered, both from souse Gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House, as well as from his
friends about hint. The lion. Member for Westminster had
spoken as if he (Mr. Brougham) advocated the systematic ern-
Fioymttra llis proposition was directly contrary. lie
sacangly deprasated a systematic scheme of spies and informers;
such a system, he thought, tended to destroy the coadence
of privata life ; to break in upon the security of domestic
and social intercourse. Ho only upheld the employment of
spies for the purpose of prevention,-and he would sell 'min-
t-an that it was not only justifiable, but it was the duty of
lieverninent to accept of such means to defeat conspiracy.-
-Fie now anxiously desired to hear some explanation on some
parts of the speeches of his llocourable and Learned Friend (the
Attorney-General), and the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Can-
ning). It was stated by them that money had been supplied by
certain persons to the plotters of the late Conspiracy. Among
these was a Gentleman's servant, and, it was said, some persons
of higher rank than a Gentleman's servant.--[The Areal's:Et--
Gest:me here intimated, that the expression he had used was
• other quarters," not higher persons.]--Another part of the
Aonourable and Learned Gentleman's speech which was offen-
sive to his mind, was in continuation of what Imbed just cleared
up. It continued, that what be then said, be trusted, would
reach to those persons who were behind, and shew them that
this was not unknown to Govenweent. If the explanation just
given had not been brought forth on this occasion, what would .
have gone abroad to the country? That the Law Officers of the
Crown, sitting amongst his Majesty's Ministers, had levelled a
charge. in the dark to be sure, but against some high quarters;
sad who would knoW who were meant by it? The reason why
heaves of opinion that the worthy Alderman should not press the
ilyase to a division on hi: motion was, that he saw a remedy else-
v. here, and because he saw no answer that could he given to the
argon:tat that the House of Commons cught not to be called on to
interfere in ordinary eases which belonged to the Courts of Law.
Beira a flight lion. Gentlt man (Mr. Canning) in his place, he
would tahe that opportunity of remarking on an observation
oreJa by him, v. high lee (Air. Brougham) hoped, when panted
oat to him, he b.: willing to give up. lu talking of the
frestrstien of the late C.ito-street t lot, he had !awe 'red an
eslrinn test there were many persons in that House who did
not leak upon the frustration of that plot as an important object.
Hsi he misunderstood the Right Hut:our:We Gentleman ? If
that was the case, he hoped he would not hentete to say so.
Ile had been an understood by all on his aide of the House.
Mr. CANNIING immediately answered in the negative e, veld-
leg, that he was net conscious. of making such an observation,
as would imply an approbation of a doctrine that might be as
lueouienient to their successors, as to those who at present held
the offices alluded to—(d' lough). •
BILOUGII AM continued—The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman was always ready with a joke. His jokes, however, wire
sometimes like a knife without a handk, which in wielding cut
the hand of the user; for in this instance it was again: t himself.
It arpearcd he was not willing to give credit, that Gentlemen
re that side of the House did heartily rejoice in the frustration
• of r.ito-street friot. Such a man, if be were in the House,
sheeld tic named, that be might Le regarded as infamous; and
if he !acre out of the House,.he ehould be indicated es .7. :mak to
be eltunsed—(licer, hoar)..-- The Honourable and Learneel Gen-
ti. man then intend into a vindication of the col:dila: ui the
Worthy Alderman whose inction was before the Route, in the
•
pro:n 14.4 ::n= ete. rot Wit:C:l if vat founded. .111 that the
.
gpvg.by Alderman hal done, mieht fairly be assumed to be a

prTaration of the cast to lay before the Grand Jury ; on doing
which, he was pursuing the very course pointed out by the
Hight Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Caor.ing).
The ATTORNEY-GENEIt AI., in explanation, said, that
the statem in which had iallen from him respecting those who
had givzii the conspirators money, was intended to be conveyed
to thus persons, to let them see that Government was acquaiuted
with them.

Mr., Aldermen WOOD then rose t• reply. Notwithstanding
the ‘iol.nt attacks that had been made upon him, he should not
be deterred from doing what he conceived to be his duty. The
.Attorney-General was seried by very faithful and expeditious
:pies; for he hail been able to tell him, that Preston had been in
Isis co►tmpany within the last twenty-four hours. It was true,
that rfe.itt):l had come to Guildhall—( Hear, /marl) He had
canna: to state souse grievances, and, in his ma,;is•crial capacity,
he was bound to attend to any application of the kind that should
be made to him—(Hear, hear!) Ilis going to Thistlewood with
the questions which he had thought proper to put to him, bad
'nen called in question. He had acted in this according to the
dictates of his conscience. Ile thought that step necessary, i❑
order that he (Mr. Alderman Wood) might obtain what corro-
boration he could of the evidence he already had. To the ques-
:Woe whether he bad received any money from Edwards? his
reply was, not now and then a pound, but " same pounds !"
Ile was ready to prove from the evidence he was possessed of,
that this Edwards was the sole promoter and instigator of the
Cato-street Conspiracy. Trail he stated in the most solemn
m..tiner. •If the Attorney. General would assure him that he
would not put a stop, as he tind the power to do, to the prusecu-
din which he should immediately begin against this infamous
individual■ he would consent to Live up his motion directly—
(Hear, hear). In that case he would pledge himself to go before
the Grand Jury with thg case, and to carry it on at his own ex-
pinse. From the evidence he had, he could prove that an Offi-
cer of the Police was connected with this individual, and that
they had been engaged together in several plots previous to, and
altogether unconnected with the late conspiracy—(Hear, hear).
Mr. CANNING said, he understood the worthy Alderman
wished to withdraw the motion ; therefore he took the oppor-

tonit7 of stating, Coat it: for one would not suffer the motion to
be wi:htirnwn. _ _ _

Sir ROBERT WILSON now rose for the purpose of draw.
Mg tie a:ter:eon of the House to a aubject, respecting which he
believtd there would be but ore feeling. Ile alluded to some
'unhappy w irmth of language which passed between two of its
Members in the course of the debate. lie hoped the House
would unite with him in the wish, that the two Gentlemen
were, the subject of these remarks, would net allow the
Il wse to separate, without an assurance on their pit that their
differer c.c.s would be buriA in oblivion !--(llese, hear, heor,froot
oil Liles of the 11,m5..).
The SPE A KEIL said, he was sure that there could be but
one feeling of thankfulness to the Honourable Memb,:r who in:
traduced this sub:;?ct—f flear, hear). He was equally sure, that
if the two Honourable Gentlemen alluded to had made' use of
any unguarded tem.:Pons in the warmth of debate, they would
be ready to do justice to the House and to themselves 4 and to
give that satisfaction to the lieu* which the Honourable lijem-
ber had just declared to be so necessary,
The Light Honourable Gentleman then sat down and a short
pause ensued.
The SPEA KER again rose and seid, that in consequence of
the Honourable Member (Sir Robert Wilson) having men-
tioned no names, it became hi: duty to state, that Sir Francis
Burdett and Mr. Canning were the Gentlemen alluded to.
The flight Honourable Gentleman then called on
Sir FR A NCIS BURDETT, who observed, that without
any intention to convey insult to the Right Honourable Gentle-
man opposite, be merely repeated an expression of his (Mr.
Canning's), but with a different application. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman said, that the worthy Alderman was drunk
with popularity—(Crics of " No"). Ile did not mean to say,
that the Right Honourable Gentleman used the word drunk;
but he certainly .rid what might be considered equal to it in force.
Mr. CANNING declared, he was never more surprised in
his life, than to find himself called upon as a party on that oc-
cation. It was easy to find peace-makers where there were no
peace-breakers. He (Mr. Canning) never used the word drunk,
as applied to the worthy Alderman. He did not know that any
off:nce was offered him that night, nor was he conscious of
giving any—(Cheers).—He knew that between him and the Ho-
poureble Baronet there was a great hostility in politics, but at a
private individual, he was a stranger to any feeling inimical to
him. Indeed, there was not an individual in that House to
whom he (Mr. C..nning) would oppose himself with less hostility
(because he would do so with most pain) than the Hon. Baronet.
A Mimosa front under the gallery suggested the withelzame
ing of the motion.
Mr. CANNING would not recede, so far as he was con-
cerned, from the determination not to suffer this motion to be
withdrawn. This was not the first time the subject was men-
tioned. When it was brought before the House in the former
instance, an intimation had been given to the worthy Alder-
man, that if he pressed the motion a second time, the conse-
quences would be injurious to him. If after that the worthy
Alderman had brought forward the motion, he must abide the
consequences ; and he ( air. Canning) thought the House would
be scandalously trilled with, if the motion was attempted to be
withdrawn—(Cheers).
Mr. Alderman WOOD declared, with warmth, that he had
not the most distant notion of withdrawing his motion. It was
true he proposed to withdraw it, if the condition before men—
tioned was agreed to.
Mr. CANNING would not consent to have the motion
withdrawn, therefore conditions were out of the question.
Mr. BROUGHAM intimated, that a middle course might
be adopted, and the question might be disposed of without a di-
vision.—The question was then put, and negatived -without a
division.
Lord PALMERSTON brought up the Ordinary Army Es-
timates, which were ordered to lie on the table ; and his Lord-
ship gave notice that he would make a motion relative to the
subject on Wednesday se'nnight.
The other Orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
I louse Adjourned at One o'Clock.

'f 11 E E NENG STA 11.

LONDON.

WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 1820.
THE FUNDS.
?RICE Of STOCKS THIS DAY AT ON, O'CLOCK :
3 per Cent. Reduced 691/e 6914 Vs
S per Cent. Consols ON 70 097_
311 per Cent. 775/8 34-4 per Cr. 86% 871/s 87
5 per Ct. 106 1057/8 1013%—Lg. Ans. 18 1-16
Fidia Bonds 21s. pre.
Exchequer Bills 3s. ss. pre.
Consols for Acct. 701/2 70.

The Gazette of yesterday evening contains a Pro-
clamation by his MAJESTY, dated the Gth instant,
announcing his intention of celebrating the solemnity
of the Coronation on the Ist day of August next; and
further noti4ing, that he has appointed a Commis-
sion, under the Great Seal, authorising his Royal
Brothers, the Duke of GLOUCESTER, the Archbishop
of CANTERBURY, Prince LEOPOLD, the LORD CHAN-
CELLOR, the Ministers of the Crown, and the Grand
Officers of State, the VICE-CHANcELLon, the MAS-
TER of the ROLLS, the CHIEF BARON of the EXCHE-
QUER, the CHIEF JUSTICES of the KING'S BENCH
and COIItION PLEAS, the CHIEF BARON of the SCOTCH
Colin? of EXCHEQUER the LeRD JUSTICE CLERIC,
&c. or any five or more of them, to 'meet at the
Painted Chamber in the Palace at Westminster, on
the 18th instant, and from time to time to adjourn,
as to them shall seen meet, for the purpose of hear-
ing and determining such claims as may be exhi-
bited by any of his loving tubjecis, in regal) of sun-

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