Star.
London, England, 1820-05-09 00:00:00

I

1 i

also might very usefully undergo a revision. For,
instance, what injury woull be done to the comma-'
nitv, that coals should be brought from Newcastle
in i;crrnan or Dutch vesiAs, if they could thus he
obtained at half their present price? Some details,
at least, in these laws, might be altered. They went
chiefly, he believed, upon the principle, that no goods
should be sent. into this cou ..ry by any ship, unless
it was British, or unless it was of the country in
which the goods with which it was laden were pro-
duced. Now where would be the injury of allo.:sing
all foreign ships to import foreign produce? The
text object of the Petitioners was the freedom of the
linen trade from transit duties. If any persons, or
bodies, thought that they would suffer by such free•
dom, they would of course come before the Commit-
tee, and every attention would be due to what they
had to say. All that he at pretent wanted, was to
go with them, and all the parties interested, into an
investiqatien of their objecti,.ns. Each trade would,
no doubt, think itself entitled to protection: ; but he
trusted that neither the Committee nor the House

would yield to any partial claim, unless they con-
• vinced themselves of i:s justice. It had been said
with respect to German linens, that if uo restriction
upon their importation existed, the linen trade of
Ireland would be materially affected. And when
the question was under consideration at a former pe-
• rind, he believed that the influence of a Noble Lord
connected with the North of Ireland, bole down the,
suggestions which were made against the continuance
of the transit duties on linen, that Noble Lord having
been induced himself to believe, that if a facility were

given to the importation of German linen, the staple
'trade of Ireland would be ruined. For his part, he
hoped when the subject was ti;irly examined, it
would he seen that no injury to Ireland would arise
from the abolition of the duties. He would consent

to have the Irish trade protected by every means, as
be felt convinced that no part of the empire deserved
• greater attention than Ireland—( Hear, hear !)
But the general advantages of a free trade should
not be sacrificed for partial reasons. One of the dis-
advantages arising :nom the want of that freedom
was the impossibility of an English ship going
out with a cargo of as:orted goads, which should
not be more Winced in Their description than an Ame-
rican, or any other foreign ship could carry. And
hen.ce it came, that in this trade this country was
in many in:tances already outstripped—(Hear, hear !)
ithlch stress had been laid upon the necessity of hav-
ing a Commercial Treaty with France concluded at
the peace. Ile, for one, did not blame the Noble
Lord who negociated that peace, for not making
such a Treaty—(Hear, hear! li-anz the Ministerial
benches). He did not blame him on account of the
hostility to the trade of England, which it would
have exerted throughout that country. The restric-
tive system stood in the way of this country's great-
ness, and there is little doubt that other countries
would not have adopted it, if they had not the ex-
ample from England, a country which, as it had been
pre-eminently successful in its Commerce, they sup-
posed it must also have been in possession of the true
principles upon which that pre-eminence was founded.
The trade to India might, perhaps, be more extended
than it had already been. If it could be shewn that
any injury would arise to the interests of the Com-
pany from that extension, either in India or China,
he would not pursue the idea farther. One argument
he had heard against it, that it might unsettle the
arrangements which existed between the Company
and the Government -of China; But it was well
known that even from our own ports American ships
were cleared out for China, while our own vessels
were excluded from that trade. This was not only
injurious to our Merchants, but it gave a less security
to those who employed the Americans, than they
would have possessed if they were allowed to employ
British vessels. If any damage accrued, if any smug-
gling transaction took place, they would be sure one
time or other to catch hold of British Owners ;
whereas the American vessels might go from port to
port, and never be met with to render any account.
As to the difficulties with respect to the arrangements'
'c ith China, they :night be got over without difficulty.
The trade to the Eastern Seas opened a large theatre
to the entcrprize of Briti,h Merchants—(Hear, hear).
The Americans might go where they pleased upon
those Seas, while British vessels were excluded.—'
Greater consequences would flow from opening this
trade than he could at present describe—(Hear, hear).
No one could tell what the enterprize of Liverpool
would do when such a field of enterprize was ex-
tended before it—( Cheers). lie would not wish to
do anything which might interfere with existing ne-
gociations, nor would he be in any degree disposed
to interfere with the rights of the India Company
but they should come forward and state the real dif-
ficulties in the way of opening the Eastern trade.—
The circumstances of the times were such as to ren-
der a consideration of those difficulties, and of the
possibility of removing them, extremely desirable.—
If the House turned its attention to the subject, it
would, perhaps, find that much might be done to-
wards removing those restrictions which oppressed
the Commerce of the country. He was aware that,
be..ides the sources of commercial difficulty on which
he had particularly dwelt, there were others which
depended on far different causes, and which time
alone could remove. He was sensible—
" now small, of all the ills that men endure,
That part which Kings or Lords can make ur cure!"

But, though some of the evils were not to be reme-
died, this %% as no reason against their proceeding to
inquire ioto the system, in order to ascertain s hat
might be alleviated. It was the duty of Parliament
to turn their minds seriously to the question—to
sbew the People that their wants were not neglected
—to let them see that no party feeling or prejudice
operated, but that all, however differing on other
points, were united on this. By doing this, they would
do more to quiet that disturbed feeling—to set at rest
those angry passions which arose in a great measure
from distress, than could be done by any other means.
—(The Hon. Gentleman, after moving that the Petition
be received, sat down amid loud cheers fiom asides of
the House).
The Petition was then brought up, and, upon the
ques.:ott being put, that it be now read—
Alt-. BARING intimated, that he had also a Peti-
tion, similar in its object, to present from the Cham-
ber of Commerce in Edinburgh.
The Petition was then read; and, as it appeared in this Paper
of the 2d instant, it is unnecessary to repeat it.l
Air. LaILNFELL said, that after the able and

lucid speech of his Honourable Friend, he thought it
unnecessary to go at any length at present into the
subject of the Petition. He cmild not trespass upon
the House further than to sax, that he fully concur-
red in all the opinions which that Petition expressed,
and that he would avail .himself of every means in
his power to give them a practical operation.
Mr. ROBINSON rose for the purpose of making
; a few general observations upon the question which
had been so ably treated by the Hon. Gentleman
who presented the Petition. Ile was fully sensible
of the extreme importance of the subject. He had
frequently befc're expressed the conviction impressed
upon his mind, that the system of positive restriction,
carried to so great a length as it had been in this
country, was founded in error—(Hear, hear).—He
had now no objection to repeat that opinion. The
Hen. Gentleman had paid him a compliment which
he was unconscious of deserving ; at the same time
he was equally unconscious of meriting the qUatifi-
cation with which it was accompanied, when it was
added, that both he (Mr. Robinson) and the Govern-
inent with which he was connected, were altogether
" apatheticals upon the subject. For himself, he had
in fact paid to it much attention, and the great diffi--
culty which he had to contend with was, how he
' could give effect to the wishes which he entertained.
He thought that this difficulty arose in some degree
from his own personal situation in that House, and
from his relation to the Government with which he
acted. But he might be permitted to say, that the
opposition which he had met with was not confined
to those from whom opposition was usually supposed
to come. He alluded particularly to the transit
duties, which, it might be recollected, were opposed
and supported by Gentlemen on the other side of the
House as well as upon this. Ile could not say how,
far the Noble Lord to whom the Hon. Gentleman
alluded, had any partiality to that restrictive system;
but this he knew, that the difficulty which he had to
induce persons to agree in the conviction of his mind,
was such a one as ha could not overcome—(Weal,
hear).—lle thought it right to say thus mitch as a
reason why his principles were not carried into im-
mediate effect—(llcar, hear).—But, after all, seeing
what the Hon. Gentleman had in view, it would be
seen that no difference now existed between himself
and the Hon. Gentleman opposite—(Hear, hear).—
Upon the general principles they agreed ; but it was
impossible that a system which had so long been
acted upon, could be all at once entirely abolished—
( Hear, hear .1 frcnt the Opposition).—lt was admit-
ted there were many points susceptible of alteration
and improvement. As to absolute prohibitions, he
was not prepared to say it was not possible, on a
fair view of the subject, that no change could take
place. In point of fact, within the last two or three
years, great relaxations had taken place. Two Acts
had been passed for the purpose of repealing three
old laws ; and here he should observe, that the laws
establishing the restrictive system, were coeval with
the commerce of England—(Hear, hear, hear).
The' laws repealed were derived from the reigns of
Richard I. Edward 11. and Elizabeth. There were
other laws which imposed protecting duties without
end, which were also repealed. In the Report of
the Lords' Committee upon the Bank Restriction
Acts, there was a list of no less than three hundred;
articles, which were then prohibited. This prohi-
bition now no longer existed—( Hear, hear, hear).
There was, indeed, a high duty upon them, but not
so high as to preclude them from this country.—
With regard to timber, he had no difficulty in saying,
that, in his opinion, the state of the duties upon that
article was such as to require amendment. It was
his intention to submit an arrangement to effect that
object. Objections, he was aware, would be made;
but in all the communications which had been made
with those interested in the trade, he saw nothing
which he thought sufficiently well-founded to prevent
such an arrangement. He agreed, that the effect of
the duties which were imposed upon timber, without
giving superior protection to the Canada trade, in-
jured-the trade to the Baltic. They were, in fact,
proposed for the purposes of revenue, and not for pro-
tection; and he therefore thought it perfectly consis-
tent with good faith, even if .any persons had acted
upon the proceedings of the Legislature, to make an
alteration with respect to the latter portion of those
duties---(Hear, hear). As to the Navigation Laws,
perhaps it might be admitted, that they did in some
degree tend to injure commerce; but that injury bore
no proportion to the danger which would threaten
the natural defence and security of the country, if
'those laws were abolished—(Hear, hear). But still,
he was not prepared to say that there was no room
for alteration. Indeed, many relaxations of them
had been already made, which were scattered through
several Acts of Parliament. Many exceptions to the
Written rule had been admitted, which, he presumed,
were well known to those who had an interest in
examining the subject. He had already stated his
acquiescence in the opinion which the Honourable
Gentleman had given with respect to the transit du-
ties on linen. He did not know why that opinion
was opposed ; however, opposed it was—and yet he
thought it a subject well worthy of consideration.
They were duties founded upon error, and had been
imposed under c's:umstances very different from
those under which they could now be contemplated.
As to commercial freedom in foreign ports, he be-
lieved, that until we removed all restrictions, others
would not—(Hear, hear). There was one part of
the Honourable Gentleman's speech which he heard
with particular pleasure: he meant that observation,
in which lie (Mr. Baring) justified his Noble Friend,
for not forcing upon France, or annexing to the Treaty
of Peace, a Treaty of Commerce, giving advantages
to us, but inflicting a punishment upon them. He
was glad that an Honourable Member se well ac-
quainted with the subject had done this justice to the
Government, for the prudenCe and policy of the course
which they had adopted on that occasion. As to a
free intercourse with France, he regretted to say, that
there were great, he might add, foolish prejudices
against it ou each side: they were national preju-
dices, however, not connected in the smallest degree
with commerce. There were, he was afraid, feel-
ings in this country which envied the present prospe-
rity of that country. • He wished it was felt here,
as it ought to be, that the prosperity of that country
was one of the safest grounds we had for expecting
permanent peace in this. He wished it was also felt,
that if peace and commerce were to. go hand in
hand, we would be the less likely to be again dis-
turbed by that military spirit which brought so many

evils upon Europe—(llear, With regard to
the laws connected with agriculture, he believed a
strong feeling was eeeited in the country, and that
there-were Members in the House who would bring
them under its consideration. To that subject Go-
vernment had given its best attention; but, for his
part, he was not able to persuade himself that there
was anything in the existing law so radically wrong
as to require alteration-: however, Ministers would
cheer fully attend to any complaint which should be
made to them in the fair. and candid way in which
the Honourable Gentleman had done to-night. He
had almost forgotten to observe, as to the India trade,
that no doubt commercial intercourse would be pro-
moted by the estension of that trade; but the House
would recollect, that this was a question of compact,
and that it would be unadvisable to drive hastily
into anything which would look like unfair dealing—
(Hear, hear). The House had no right to compel.'
the East India Company to abandon even one of their
privileges, if they wished to retain it—(Hear).
Mr. GEORGE PHILLIPS approved of the Peti-
tion, and of the way in which it had been introduced.
He was also glad to hear the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman express opinions so favourable to commerce.
He trusted they would not be rendered nugatory by
that division in the Cabinet which existed in all great
questions, much to the damage of the country.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS expressed his concurrence in
the opinion of the Honourable Mover, and his plea-
sure at hearing the sentiments avowed by the Right
Honourable President of the Board of Trade. He
must say, that he was disappointed in afterwards
hearing from that Right Honourable Gentleman that
his expectations of beneficial alterations did not ex-
tend beyond a few minor points. He was sorry that
, he was not prepared to come forward with some
specific propositions of relief, or at least, with a mo-
tion for a Committee to endeavour to do something
to satisfy the Nation: The great principle on which
alone any good could be done was, to devise the best
plan for giving general employment to the industry
of the people; ar.d it was not by balancing one in-
terest against another that any real beneficial conse-
quence to the whole could be produced.
Mr. BEAUMONT thought that some measure
should originate ou the part of Government.
Lord MILTON said, he heard the Petition and
the speech of the Honourable Gentleman who pro.:
posed it, with great satisfaction; for if anything in
the present state of the country could afford conso-
lation, it was to see sound principles of political eco-
nomy embraced by such an enlightened body as the
Merchants of London. He would have heard, with
equal satisfaction, the speech of the Right Honour.
able Gentleman opposite, but for a little alloy which
it contained; he was sorry to observe, that his con-
duct and his principles were not in unison. The sub-
ject before the House was one upon which no party
feelings ought to be allowed to operate. This was
not a subject on which to consider the interests of
particular Constituents. They were to legislate for
all, and not for Northumberland, or for Yorkshire.
A union of Councils was most is de-
manded by the state of the Nation, and they were
called on to inquire if the restrictions, which shackled
and injured commerce, could be advantageously re-
moved ? It was true, that these restrictions were not
peculiar to us; for almost every people had adopted
them, as if acting on the lines of the Poet—

--- nee nautica pinus
Mutat& merces; °nuns ferat omnia
But the great error (continued his Lordship) lay in this
selfish principle, both as it regarded our relations
with other countries, and our situation at home. It
seemed to him, that the scrambling of Agriculturists
for higher prices, and the competition of Mercantile
Interests to meet them, were equally wrong, since the
distress pervaded the country at large in which agri-
culture and commerce were, and not these classes in
an insulated state. It must, in his view, be clear to
every one, that they could not go- on long as they
were. The five millions which the Right Honour-
able Gentleman obtained last year, had failed in its
avowed purpose, and the Right Honourable Gentle-
man had been proved either to have been entirely
mistaken, or one of the worst prophets that ever pro-
phesied in that House! Their true policy now was
plainly pointed out to them by the failure of the past,
wherein Ministers bad begun at the wrong end. It
was not to rush to taxation, but to enable the people
to pay taxes. In taking a view of the distress of the
country, many Gentlemen traced it to different
causes. Among these, the Poor Laws was one of
common occurrence, and, he thought, ought to be
examined most minutely. One of the effects of the
war had been to absorb and draw capital into a
smaller number of hands, and thus the great class of
lesser capitalists were reduced to that condition which
was likely to lay many additional burthens upon the
Poors Rates. In this light, he must say, that the
pressure of the late conflict. had fallen on the agri-
cultural labourer and artizan in manufactures, and
not on the wealthy landed proprietor, or rich mer-
chant. With regard to the restrictive principle, it
appeared to him that at least all the minor branches
of trade might be left free. Though the Navigation
Laws as tending to our national security, and the
Corn Laws for their extreme importance, might have
sacrifices made to them, nothing short of our inde-
pendence could sanction the principle. Another
matter which must have had great influence on our
system was, the return to cash payments. This
must have augmented the pressure of the times,
though, perhaps, they had not, in their anxiety to
attain so desirable an object, looked the difficulties
it was calculated to create so fully in the face as
they should have done. There were many other
difficulties to be encountered before they could re-
trace their steps, but when the subject was so ably
and fairly presented, there was more than common
grounds for hope, that it might be followed up most
successfully. •
Mr. RICARI)O took up the Noble Lord's remark
on the subject of cash payments, and considered
how far the bullion question affected the present
discussion. He contended, that the alteration oc-
casioned by the return to cash payments was too
small to warrant the conclusion that it had so
prodigious an influence in producing national
calamity ; he quoted the price of gold at seve-
ral periods, to shew that this was the case.—
He was happy to hear that so many Gentlemen had
spoken M favour of a free trade, and that the prin-
ciples so ably laid down by
.Adam Smith were at
length so well received, and likely, sooner or later,

to be acted upon. It might be said that the present
system of commerce was necessary towards keeping
up the Public Revenue ; hut to this he would observe,
that it was still more necessary to enable men to pay
revenue, and that object would be best attained br
affording greater.facilities to those who were engaged
in commerce. He acknowledged that a change in
our commercial system would be attended at first
with some difficulties, and, if speedily adopted, with
considerable loss to individuals. He particularly
alluded to those who had vested interests, and who
had embarked large canitals in commercial specula-
tions. It would therefore be unjust to do away our
present system all at once ; time should be taken for
full consideration, and the change should be gra-
dually introduced. It was absolutely necessary to
correct the present system ; and, if it should be
thought necessary to establish a free trade, notico
ought to be given, •that after a certain time such 3.
change would begin to be carried into effect, and
that a better system was to be reverted to. He wit,
pleased to find, that most of the opinions given by
the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ro-
binson) agreed with his own. With regard to the
corn trade, he conceived that it rested on the same
grounds with other kinds of commerce ; for, if the
growers of corn laboured under any peculiar bur-
theirs, it would be proper to give them comyensation
and protection. Hut he wished to know whether
agriculturists did labour under such peculiar bur-
thens, and if so, - what these burthens were ? It
could not be said that the tar on malt and leather
came under _ that description ; for these taxes fell
equally alike on all parts of the community. It
might be said that the poor laws were a peculiar
burthen on agriculture; if that were the case, he w oulci
have no objection to a countervailing duty on the,
importation of foreign corn. He was, however, far
from thinking that the poor-rates fell much more
heavily on farmers than on the other parts of the
community. Some portion of them might indeed
fall as a peculiar burthen on the land; but then there
were peculiar burthens on other descriptions of peo-
ple. If one were to go round among persons of various
occupations, and find that almost all of them had
their peculiar burthens, he could see no reason why
any specific measure sho:.id be adopted in favour of
agriculturists only. Still, if a greater burthen in pro-
portion fell upon them, he then thought it would be
proper to lay some on the importation of corn.
Tythes were certainly a burthen upon agriculture,
and that circumstance might entitle them to be pro-
tected by a countervailing duty.
Mr. ELLICE observed, that the farmers were al.-
ready protected by the Corn Bill, and they were the
only persons who were protected. With regard to
the present Petition, he concurred in all the objects
it proposed to effect; but, unfortunately, the present
state of tl:e public debt and of the finances, must
render all attention that might now be paid to alter-
ations in our commercial system, completely uselessi
If the whole of our public debt retnained just as it
now was, that House would only be deceiving the
country, if they held out hopes to the people, that
any benefit could accrue to them from such a pro-
ceeding as was now recommended. There were
certainly some vexatious regulations in our com-
merce, which might be done away. It might be
proper to allow all articles to be warehoused ; but,
as the bonding system now stood, that could not be
done, because it was necessary to give bonds on all
exciseable articles that were now warehoused. When-
ever the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite of-
fered any practical suggestion, he (11k. Ellice) would
give his best assistance, in endeavouring to carry it
into effect. He hoped that Hon. Gentlenieni. who
took .a paft in this question, would apply all, their
attention to it, and that a wise and beneficial system
would at length be adopted.
Mr. MARRYAT conceived that oar own produce
might be injured by the free importation of foreign
produce ; and that to allow coals to be conveyed in
foreign vessels, would be injurious to our shipping
interests. He hoped that his Majesty's Ministers
would pay particular attention to this subject:
Mr. WILSON agreed, that in the present state of
our taxation, it would be impossible to take' up the'
subject then before the House with a view to the at-
tainment of any real benefit to the country. He was
glad, however, to find, that the subject had been
taken up; and in order that it might be better un,
derstood, he thought that Gentlemen ought to bring
forward particular grievances.

Mr. BARING spoke in reply. He said he mnst
differ from his Honourable Friend in what he said
respecting the currency. A pound sterling at this
time differed considerably in value from a pound
sterling during the war. The difference was about
1:25 per cent. ►n favour of the existing currency. A.
change in the value of commodities did not imme-
diately follow this change in the circulating medium,
on account of the fluctuations which took place in
the prices. The burthen at present on the country'
was considerably augmented by the alteration which
had taken place ►n the issue of Bank paper. He was
sure that it was an honourable and liberal act to'
limit the currency,' but he was not certain whether
the Bank would be able to perform all that was pro-
mised. We were now a declining country in point‘
of Trade and Revenue; and the question was, whe-
ther more had been promised than could e'er be
performed? Our great difficulty at present was a
large debt, and we should not gi,-e the publiC credi-
tor more than we were bound to do by our strict
contract ; but he conceived that we placed ourselves
in a situation of difficulty, and gave the public cre-
ditor too great an advantage by recurring to pay-
ments in gold, and by abandoning silver which was
the old standard coin of the realm. He should ra-
ther have made it a perpetual system, and made it
optional in the Bank to pay in gold or in silver, Next
Session he should bring forward a proposition to
this effect.

Mr. RICARDO, in explanation, said, that though
two standards of currency might facilitate the pay-
ment of the public creditor, it would be attended
much inconvenience in all public transactions..
Mr. BARING said, the difference was more theo-
retical than real.

• Mr. W. SMITH approved of the plan suggested
by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Baring) as to having
two metals, as the price of one might operate as a.
corrective to the other.
The Petition was then laid on the table, as was also that from
the Chamber of Commerce of Edinburgh, and both were or.
dered to be printed.