Star.
London, England, 1828-05-09 00:00:00

laftficirsthere were considerable numbers of itetions
.
been coned to quit Ireland, and who were ac-,
flatulent irreconcileable,and inveterate hatted
"against English connectwn. With these elements of ,
'hostility teady to combine and break out in action
whenever a tavourable opportunity shou:d occur. he
•woulf ask, if it was wise to leave the population of Ire-
land in a state of organized dissatisfaction williEng'
• land? He felt ia his conscience that the connexion of
•beland with this country could not be securely pre-
served if telief to the 'Catholics were longer delayed.
Mr. G. MOORE then rose to address the House, but
his introductory observations were inaudible from the
"jut which Prevailed in the House. He stated that the
arguntentsathe Right Hon. Gentleman who had pse•
ceded him were intended to establish two propositions
—the one, that the Catholics were entitled to their de-
minds by the Treaty of Limerick; the other, that the
faith of this country was pledged to the granting of
those demands by the Union. Alter showing that the
.Treaty•of Limerick was never considered to hear the
construction now put upon it by the other side, down
to the discussions of 1782 and 1783, the
,Honourable
Member proceeded to refute the al gumt-nts drawn front
the proceedings on the Union. The pledge given by
the Government at that time was not a pledge to fur-
ther the accomplishment of Catholic Emancipation, but
only to give additional facilities to its discussion—
(Cries of Hear, and a laugh (tom the uppotite side.)—
He heard a diet: of dissent lions Gentlemen opposite,
but he would trier to the authority quoted by the Bight
•Hon. Gentleman—he would icier to the ovoids o; Mr.
Pitt to show that he not only did not plenge himselt to
the cat tying of that measure, hut did not contemplate
anything further •than what he had stated. The lion.
.I.lembet then read a passage from Mr. Pitt's spee:h in
telly to Mr. Fox, On the 13th of May, 1805, wlieh,
alter "limning that subsequent to the Union he saw the
subject in a different light, proceeded to say that he did
not make r distinct pledge; that on the contrary, he t e-
-1 eyed the line of argument he took was this—that it it
should altetwards be thought that this boon might he
given to the Catholics, (her. at would be better given after
the Union was effected; or it it should be thought pro-
per to ranee giving it, it might then be better setused.
He (Mr. Moore] would now able the !louse whether he
had nut tedeemed his pledge of proving, upon Mi.
Prays own audio. sty th it Iv only contemplated the effect
of the Union upon this qiiestion ay giving additional f.s•
cilities to its dit.cussion ?—(Loud dices s.)—I t appeared
also front the letters which had be-is published. that
Ahem was an-impiession upon the Ro) al mind at that
day that the Union uould put a close to the importu-
wines with which that guts ion beset it. lu one of his
• Majesty's letters that impress on was declared in the
following words t—" What occasioned my inclination
• to 'Le Um. n was my bel.ef that the separation of the
two Chinches would for ever shut the door against
'slither measures of concession to the Roman Catho-
lics." Was it possible, alter thi-, to say that the
Union was considered by the Government as a
'pledge that Catholic Emancipation. should follow ?
.--(Cheers.)—Toe honourable Baronet had spoken
of the hallow' and glorious achievements of their Ca-
tholic ancestors. He had always felt that no part of
their glory shone with blighter splendour than their
resistance to Papal encroachment, and their refusal to
acknowledge any intei (ciente, temporal or spiiitual in
the exercise of their political si6lita—(Hear, hear). He
tau the tame spun in the Act of SAtlement at the Re
volution, and he thttelore tegaided it as one of the
la. meat bulwarks of out civil lights. In that Act was.
established as "at leading and decided -principle t • ex-
clude Roman Catholics Irons all some in the Govern.
surto, Legislative or Executive. They had been ex
chided from the Legislature before, but the Act of Sei•
•lenneist excluded them alike from the Coats and all
tither offices in the State. He had alway 'considered the
•subject of the Coronation o.th to be oree of a delicate
na.ure, and did nt.t much rest item: the arguments
founded upon it. But so long as :he Act oh Final Settle-
•tneest was deemed necessary to be preserved. and while the King
,by its premiums was pet/tined (runt marrying a Catholic, so lung
. mu it raise toile of the strongest talmudic% agaiteit the admission
or Catholics to vowel. Where it was cfinsidertel sufficient to Wien
the Knit, o y an oath to support the Beetestseit Establishment, but
-also to provide that his nearest and dearest cuonexion should
tiecesaarily be of that persuasion, how was it to be said that
any oath would he a sufficient security in the admission of Ca-
tholics themselves to office? It thews then, were the übjec-
. t Wins to the granting of Catholic Emancipation, let him take
' leave to examine the grounds upon winch that measure was
• demanded at their bawds. He sound that demand made upon
two gel Brat grounds—the one, expediency ; the other, an as.
lotrtiltil that the cot:maim would not be dangerous to the Pro-
'te.tant listablhbowitt. In the fit it place, be felt an objec-
tion to admitting the argument sit expediency upon' a question'
utst such great national importance. It was not only cape.
ithency, but necessity. which must be proved to make bun give
op a rest public prisicipie. Such a principle he considered
telt to be, end he was certainly nut preparei to sacrifice it
-to the shallow aiguntent of expediency. Thee fame the arguttiew
of danger ; and au his opinion there was no question upon which the
-public mind of lenglaud had bete% open to so touch delusion in this
.fr+ptct, as iu the uric then beiure the Muse: Ile denied that the d.s
turbid state ut lithend was cesmiected with this question. Ile would
"Itt.t pass such a libel upon the Catholicilotly 36 to attribute to them the
etistruce of that sanguitiary Association which desolated the south ut
lrelaud. Gould 1..
.suppose that the efforts eif the Catholics them-
selves would he wanting to put down outrage, which tendered Isle
and property equally in-retire? it had been the boast of the no
mats Catholic Gently, and of that body which assumed the repre-
*iientatiou of helium!, that it was their object to put do •• it the out-
. one.. to which he hail ailuded. Was it then to the peasantry of Ire-
land that they were to look fur danger ? He knew the peasantry of
Itelatial. He bed been fur years its habits of bstercuterse with them,
andknew their natural disposition to industry and good conduct :
and be was satisfied there was not a more hospitable, brave, and
gem rats race on the lace of the earth. He knew wall that great Fer-
min was now yawing, and that it was excited by the inflamma-
tory bararigues at the meetings at the Catholic Body. Ile
was not
iusensible to the danger that must 'poem from this source, if such
a body was allowed to continue its work of agitation and disordet.
He should not ham alluded to this subject at ail if it had nut beet,
,rested epos by the night lion. Geodeman opposite as a powerful
argument in favour of the motion. What was the amount it that ar-
gon.ent, but that if they removed the Catholic grievances they
'should remove the danger? If be thought that the removing the
Catholic grievances could be effected without removing the safe-
„guards of the Church. no ogle would be more ready than he to duo ;
and in justice to the Protestaut coninumity of Ireland he mug say,
that they would be anxious to share their privileges wails their
fellow-subjects, if they thought it could be dune with security.—
But whets be was told that the trauqutUitY of Ireland would be
ge•eured by granting such a measure, be naturally put this ques-
tion to himself-4f the removal of Catholic grievances was the
only object of the Catholic Association, why did they take such an
hidefinite range of discustiou, interfering With every public measure
-that was proposed? Why was every topic of irritation, not even
. not directly, but not consequentially connected with the removal
of their grievances, so eagerly seised and so vehemently dwelt
upon by the popular orators in that place? His answer was, that
there must be a system and sn object beyond this, and be could
oat; therelote, view their disaffection as growing out of the Cathode
grievances. The Honourable Member asked whether the comes
NOD of the question would Improve the condition of the poor of
Jreland?—(J-leat). He would ask whether it would bring waste
land into cultivation? Would it facilitate the working of their
mines? Would it transfer British capital to Ireland? Would It
sane trade and annul-act urea .—(Lund Difterios). It he could rely
en the clarets of lion. Members he ghoul,' gay." more; but he
assist remind the House, that if manufactures were increased in
Ireland, they must first bold out to the English manufacturer and
die capitalist that it was their interest to speculate in Ireland.
Mien they could convince the English manufactureithat it was
Alt hamlet to very capital to Ireland, then, and not before, he
,weakliproasete the prosperity of Ireland. The 1100. Member
Muhl oily give his unequivocal'dlasent to the prorporitgowas wog
firma* to BM* enterprise. Hs knew that British Polka was

was tiyj
ttollsypiirtkeigoof eotewarsetut eanapaatrct s
toot theu twe. world
when vi+as the comet blase of prosperity. 111.1 In
tor ward so success in every gear.
tlL:rrgi,t4bish'e
tnetcaunutiectstrdetuicirer wit lookingtahsehnei
trade to !reload was making tepid
advances, but it wasikitish c tpital and Banish itnerest that cherished
Irish isidusts y, and afforded a yruspeet of her welfare. • The lion.
Member neat applied his able arguments to the second and last part
of the question, on which Gentlert►en, he said, were called upon to
offer the expressitirrof their sentiments. lie considered seriously
the danger of concession. The granting of the claims made by the
Boman Catbulics be must oppose:MS the principle of danger to the
Constitution. The admissiurt of Roman Catholic Members to that
liouie would increase the Papal power in England, and interfere
with the Protestant Establishment. He was nut disposed to enter
upon the wide doctrine of Hassan Catholic tenets, which had
created so much discussion. It would be idle to advert to the for-
mer state of things. Nu c►ange at the present day woul I bring the
Roman Catholics to the state they Were in two centuries ago. It
was said the Roman Catholic Church could Conform to any Oo-
'aliment, yet a Protestant Government could not permit them to
conform without danger to its Church hoeblishment. They had
been told of modern liberal changes in the Roman Cathulic doctrine
and discipline. Was be to recognise a favourable change in the re-
storation of the Holy inquisition? Was it in the restos stints of the
Jesuits, and the decree tat the Spanish Curies? Was it in the spirit
of intolerance which opposed itself to the British Constitution?—
One of the brightest ornaments of that Constitution was—the
liberty it gave to lkitish subjects of uttering their °initiate,
and the power which every man had of declaring his •J to
his know subjects. That liberty had been considered odious by
those who were eupposed among Roman Catholics to have new
and liberal views. It the Houk gave the things required by Roman
Catholics, the benefits Of a Protestant Constitution would be sub-
verted lie wished to know in what the favourable change existed?
lie could nut bird it in the Church of Rome, or its eractices. In
many ut the moat important periods of the history of the country
the Romeo Catholic Clergy had exclusieely exercised their iothience
over the Roman Catholic Lats.:. Indeed go all occasions they had, by
then own acts, destroyed the tight wh.ch they claimed of %Whig in
Parli..nieitt, lit the reign of Elizabeth and Charles I. the Catholic
Clergy had. rendered it the duty of Protestants to exclude them
Irons the House of Commons. It was nut necessary at the pieseut
day to dhow that the Catholic Clergy exercised au indisputable
power over the pity. Their power was reciptocal, and when be
found the Catholic Clergy and Lay expressnig their must dries-
mined hostility nut only to the Protestant Church soul people, but to
every thing dear to tire country, be could not commit to give them
that power they required. Ile was satisfied the concession was not
justilied by expediency. lie begged leave to as-sire the lion.
Liaresser, that he had as high An opinion of the Duke of Wellington
54 ally man could . have, but he was sure the Duke of Wellington
would never secure the tranquility of Ireland by surreudering the
citadel of the ( onditution.
Mr. DOGIIEIt'I'I said he did nut rise to address the House
from the sightert expectation that he could add any thing to the
arguitieuts, but having for many years heard the opinions sit others,
he was anxious to state the conclusions he had come ta. When called
upon ithr his vote, be telt bound to give it couscientaumly. lie kir
that the question must be set at rest, amid he thought there was but
one way to is:ole it, and that was by conceding it. The time
had conic when they insist Woe at at and put an end to the question.
Three moues uttered tor adoption. One was to let thole remain
as they are ; the second was to conciliate ; and the th.rd was to
adopt a severe measure which might coerce the Roman Catholics
It was 11/Ipll4.ibk 1U perpetuate the question. It bad changed, mid
it. cisuld mw. He did nut mean to wavily dangers, but to ap.
peal to the sympathy of the Meow, to rescue the Catholic pupusa
non of lseranu ►ruts waist and misery. lie approached the subject
freely. Ihe concession of this question, it was said, would iiijure
the Cusistitution. By admitting Members of the Roman Catholic
persuashot into that House the Constitution could not be injured.
Ile heal el the Secretary our the Hume Deliartnient say, in 1825,
that it the euiscediun ut the question coulu tretiqmilise losiand, be
would ►cut taut it, but he thought it would have no such etirct.
lie did nut any a would trauquillsze Ireland; but he would say, that
without it all other measures would be vain. There WAS no Eng-
lish capital in irelmtd, and never would be until tranquility was
established, But what was the danger of ad • ties 1(0111111 Ca-
tholics to scats in that. House ? Way, when they gave theft the
elective franchise they were in that House. They were there in
the most noxious shape. The lest election was dangerous, but what
would be the state of the ►next ? They would send any who choose
to be the reasoning Advocates in that House. lie divided lest
luso), valuable Itepresentatiees ill that House might be displaced
by the Representatives of Homan Catholics.
Lord FKA N CIS GOWER said, the oily apology he had for
introducing any sentiment of his at so late a❑ hour was, that es
ulteit as the question bad come before the House, he had meth
bad an opportunity of expreotes his lie ciessioered the
subject deeply ititerestiug to ali pats of tue coutiu y. Tnr loom.
Member for Dublin had said they were nut to ILUtVada it 1U pont.
of expediency ; but these were nut the sentiments of Mr. Camittig.
The Noble bird cited a speech made by the late !tight !lots. Lieut.
(Mr. Canning) iii which lie said, " 1 comities. the cumice•s.uu to the
Catholic Clam►. essential to the perihelion interests in the country. It
kid...mined with the kelings of all classes." The Noble Lord did not
entertain the least fear of Catholic Members sitting in that House.
Lie bad 4111 doubt the good Sakti: of th. Siembers ut England would
etfurd eintiptete seem sty. it Roman Catho IC Atriums. were ene-
mies (lithe Church, let them dispute the subject face to lace. .l he
Noble Lord held that, the Risk ne:t.unietet—the Pre)ll, was more
thaw a match tor Jesuitism.. ' ilk knew not butt/ long Jesuitism
might exist, but be saw that edheatilill bad pidited the Arrow in its
MAIL The Noble laird was tavesureble to the ptop.ositiou of that
tii‘ht. Ile had beard of the sense ut the public upuu tins subject.
He thought the prevention of Catholic EmAncyatiosi was timittaiu-
able. Ooscrvetions had been made on the denser of the Catholic
Priesthood. lie deprecated the spirit ut opposition which bad so
mug prevailed in Itelaud, but could not see that disputes weir in-
creased by the Clergy.
The question be tog loudly called for, further debate was ad-
purlieu uutsi tun d.y.
'the House theta tux at Hoer-rase Gus O'Cwcx this morning.