Star.
London, England, 1820-09-19 00:00:00

for the Queen bad said, that it would be a great hardship 'if she
were not allowed to go into her defence, and he had ,conse-
. queatly withdrawn his support from that motion. But the fact
was, as it now appeared, that though the whole of the case
agaiust the Queen was gone through, the injuries she had suf-
feted were so great, that the evidence against her went, in the opi-
nion of the Public, for nothing. The people had seen the Queen
charged with a crone that was no crime by law ; menaced with
an Act that was at once to make the crime and pronounce the
judgment on it ; they had seen her negociated with and threat-
ened alternately; they had seen her formerly tented out .of her
house ; they bad seen her almost compelled to leave this coun-
try ; they had seen her, when abroad, followed by spies, all
her actions watched, attacked by a confederacy of all the Powers
of Europe—[lord Castlereagh dissented].—The Noble Lord
' might shake his head at this, but he (Mr. Creevey) had attended
to the eviarace as far as it had gone in the house of Lords; he
• bad heard from the mouths of the witnesses, that such and such
Ministers and Ambassadors bad requested them, and had threat-
ened to use force to induce them to come here. They had seen
the day in which the resources of England had been lavished on
'the witnesses; and they felt convinced that the sante powers
ilett were set in motion to bring hither evide.ice against the
Queen, would be employed to keep back the witnesses in her
lavoar. Such were the cahunities whirh were heaped on an in-
sdividuale7on a woman--that woman too a Qeocen—a l', incurs
tit' the House of Brunswick—(Hear, scar).—'These thine could
not be known without arousing the warmest and most lasting
iedigration. 'The fact was, political questions were comparatively
matter of a day, but violations of the principles of justice were
never forgotten—(Hear, bear).—Why but for this was it that
now, at the distance of nearly two hundred years, the name of
Hampden, a plain country Gentleman, who had defended his
propetty ageinse the arbitrary orders of the Court, was still
famous among all Englishmen ?—Why was it but from the vit-
t:Airy and corruption of the Judge' who had sanctioned the pro-
ceedings, that he was in the mouth of every one who could read
the Englishlanguage?—That was a proceeding against a private
man. Did the Noble Lord think that these proceedings against
the Queen would excite a feeling less intense or less durable?--
(Hear, hear).—lliti he think that it was nothing to set the Alas-
tocracy :against the middle and lower classes of the tuition? lie
was not one of those who thimghtfightly of the Aristocracy;'
they were identified with all that had been gained for liberty iu
this country, and he wished to see them continue to be thus
identified ; but he was sorry to say, that as far as they had gone,
they injured themselves iu public esteem, and he believed the
Aristocracy to be in the wrong, and the great body of the people
In the right—(Hoar, hear).—Would not the Noble Lord rather
harp the Ariuucracy and the People united, than separate them
r.s they ware separated on this question—(lient, iitair).—The
LOA elect-riled as it went on every institution in the country. It
professed te degrade the Queen. It had degrade.! the House of
1,-..rets—://ear,kair).—Ttie Lti4hops were seated to hear evi-
eteice which eye' y nt...st..r of a family would hide carefully from
the sigie of his sons or daughters--(Rear, hear).—Had not the
Neble Lori, too, seen in the published accuuntauf the evidence,
tae notices of the cheers of the Judges when anything came out
which seeraed to prentute the case against the Quern.--(LOrd
Cascleneeh iatinette‘l hit dissent]. lie (Mr. Ctetvey) bad
beard thew chsers with his own eats. 1k had been a witness
of thet tri.:htful eetnaition. He had heard the Counsel repria
"nianciirg the Judges—a/leer, (war, !tuts sllear!er on Vie JJaris-
feria el le 11 lie did not arsOW what the Honourable
Men:!rer ottani, but he would ask whether it was not a repri-
mand, end whether it must nut hay, been felt a.. a degradation
to that .Is•eninly, ‘k hen the Counsel fair the Queen asked what
was the meaning of those acclamations? Did he nut think that
a. ch an event was sincerely to be deplored? 'lbis was a real
degradation to the Aristocracy. Then cause the intimation that
the Divorce Clause was to be given up. This intimation was
given at a time whet. it wea apprehended that recrimivation.
which was inseparable trent the measure, in whateaer way at
was urged, (night be resorted to. The Honourable Alen.ber
fur bbeewsoury heti justly observed, that whatever had been
said of the King in :the House, or still more strongly out of
the Howse, dui nut actaally degrade the King half so much
as this attempt to witharew the Divorce Ana).
The next Establishment that was to be degraded was the House
of Commix's. If the Bid, by any misfortune, should come to
them, in nitre situation would they be? They were a Jury of
az honored, witkeut the power of administering the oath. He
did not complain iif this, but such was the law. The only autho-
lary to whim they could appeal would be that of the Chairman
of the Committee of Ways and Atari. During the time he had
attended the Howe of 'Lord*, he had seen the Judges retire tvco
or three times a day to instruct the House, in which there wets
four learned persons who lad tilled the office of Lord Chancel-
air. What c uld they do in that Home without the assistance
ef any Judges, and withont any legal authtJuity other than that
of the worthy Chairman (Mr. Brogeleo)? Ile hoped that this
• ificulty would never be brought home to them; and he felt
not only justified, but ailxious to vote with the Hon. Member
for Westminster, for an Address to prorogue the Parliament.
Be should vote for the Motion, from his anxiety to preserve a
respect for the administration of justice and veneration for the
I.ws.—( Hear, hear). •
Mr PETER MOORE lamented that the Motion of the Ilo-
nourahle Member for Cambridgeshire (Lord F. Osborne), on a
timer occasioo, had not been carried into effect. The objec-
tion that was then made to the Motion was, that as the evidence
had began, it was fit it should be carried through. lie had not
tarn; ht that argument conclusive, and he should vote for the
.amendment of • the HonourableMember-for Westminster, on
the treeeet occasion, as he had now the satisfaction of being
strenb-thened in his opinion by all his Constituents: The Noble
Lord t eked of justice and the character of the country. Who
was it that bad inflicted the wound on the character of the
country and of justice? A day of reckoning would comes when
a little more would he known of the proceedings. The feeling
of the Public, on the perusal of the evidence, was, that it was as
dark and foal a conspiracy as ever existed against the Queen,
and that his Majesty's alinisters were at the bottom of it. The
country was persuaded, that till their afiairs were out of the
lands of those men, there was no security fur persons, or pro-
perty, or laws. or Constitution. What was the judicatory in
this esse?—who was the prosecutor? As in 1806, there was a
child withent a fither, so there was now a Counsel who could
not tell wheetttr toyed him:— Who had drawn up the Bill? If
a public ooh ea 1, why did he not come forward and avow him-
self? The Attorney-General said, that he acted under the
House of Lards; but he did not know how they could Live any
direction tiil an accusation was preferred. These things bad
raised the eublic mind to a conviction that the proceedings ought
to be put down. The Bill of Pains and Penalties might be ap-
plied as well to get rid of any other of the High Dignitaries of
the State. The next Bill might be to get rid of the King. or the
Bench of Bishops, or the House of Lords, triad the whole Aris-
tocracy. Ile lamented that the proceedings had not lung ago
been put a stop to. Ile bad received a letter from a very end-
Letn professional Gentleman, who said, that by this mockery of
justice, the victories of Nelson and Wellingtort, and the glories
.•1 England, were souk for esa r !—(el high).—The measure was,
it Lis opinion, full of danger to the State, and he hoped it would
b: at once stayed, for the reasons be had assigned (Hear, hear).
Mr. ELLICE said, he was sorry to differ from his Honour-
able Colleague, and if. he could, with any principle of justice,
row put an end to the case, or if, by any sacrifice of his own
opinion, he could cause the proceedings to be dropped, be should
nillergly do so. Bat as he saw no probability that his /lon :ar-
able Friend would induce the House to agree with him, he could
not help expressing what he felt—that, after the evidence against
the Illustrious Individual which had been offered, he should be

guilty of the grossest injustice if he did net allow her to offer
evidence to rebut the charges, and to prove, if possible, that they
originated in what some I lonourable Gentlemen had said, a foul
e.tnspiracy—(lieur, heuri.—For these reasons, though he felt
bow desirable it was that these proceedings should never have
commenced, he coalti not now vote for the Amendment of his
llouourable Friend (34. llubhouse). But he could say thus
tetuch, that if the Bill were ever, as he hcped it would not be,
beaten down trom the other House, he should oppose it on the
principle that no Bill of Pablo and Penalties should he tolerated
where the public interest did nut manifestly require it.
Sr M. IV. RIDLEY said, he felt that it was unnt cessary for
tam to state his opinions after the speech of his 1-lonourable
Prield (Mr. Ellice), in which be fully concurred. In one of the
Ps.Feld a statement had been made, on which he was anxious to
he.,r some explanation. At a Public Meeting it had been said
by all Ilunourable Baronet (Sir G. I(liiel),.that he had received
a letter from a %firth), Alderman,. tlit'iltletnier fur the City of
London (Mr. Alderman Wood)k•viho state that her Majesty
lim4 been left Witt of money for her defence. He hoped this
natsitot originated in mistake.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said he was
kappy to assure the Hon. liaroneti, that every sum which her
/dayesty's legal advisers applied for had been issued, and that
toy bad been imfurmed, that whatesa they might apply for

hereafter, would be 'issued, subject only to such an account as
they might be emlbled to give hereafter.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY asked whether the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would object to produce an account of the sums,
with the dates, which he would move for ?
Pig, CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the sum
issued was £20,000.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY—What were the dates of the issues?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
exactly remember. The first sum of £lo,ooo bad been issued
just about the beginning of the trial, the other sum of £lO,OOO
.:bout three weeks ago.
Mr. HC M E said, he wished to know how many days had•
elapsed between the application for the money and the issue of it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, no fur-
ther time had intervened than the forms of office rendered
necessary.
Mr. WHITBREAD said he should support the Amendment, because he had never been able to see to what good the
Bill of Pains and Penalties tended. All public ground had been
cut away from under the measure at its commencement, by the
vote of that House. They were told by some, that it was ne-
cessary to the morals of the count' y, but he should be glad to
kunw whether the morals of the country would have been bet-
ter served by suppressing, or by sending abroad such evidence
as that which had been adduced before the Lords?-41 they
were to search, to ferret after immorality, for the purpose of
exposing and punishing it, he feared they would have the con-
duct of others to inquire into beside that of the Queen—( Hear,
hear). High as the station of Queen was, there were persons as
high, if not higher than the Queen, whose conduct would form
the subject of inquiry•, if they were to inquire into all immo-
rality. He should, to avoid such a consequence, vote to stop
the proceedim; at any stage of it, and as soon as the present mo-
tion was disposed of, in whatever way, he should make a motion
as to the costs of the proceedings.
Mr. MONCK aaki, he thought the House of Commons had
a right to interfere when it saw the House of Lords acting in an
unconstitutional manner, and the practice had been to pray the
Crown to prorogue' the Parliament. There was ore very me=
morable case of this kind, when the House of Lords, in a
question between the India Company and an individual, assumed
an unconatitutional power, and when the House of Commons
prayed for and obtained a prorogation. The motion was there-
fore regular, but he could not on the present occasion support it.
Ile agieed that the inquiry was prejudicial to the interests of
the country. But, as the Member fur Shrewsbury had said, the
treason had done its utmost, the poison had been spread, and he
felt desirous that •the Queen should be allowed, as he hoped and
believed she would be able, to rebut the charges against her. He
could not forget, too, that independently of the question of the
incontinence of the Queen, there was another question to be
' tried—Whether the Ministers had acted justifiably ? And if it
should be shewn that they had built their charges on persons
who weir not creditable in their own country—ii they had built
.them on the loss est dregs of society in Italy, a case of guilt was
established against the Ministers—(Heor !).
Sir GERARD NOEL said, he should vote for the Amend-
ment, as the means of putting an end to the Bill of Pains and
Penalties, the principle of which had not been.heard of since the
time of James 11.

Mr. Alderman HEYGATE said he remained of the same'
opinion as when he had voted for the motion of the Ilonourable
M ember for Brainber, that the inquiry was injurious to the
country, and sheind, on no account, have been brought for-
ward. But it was one thing to krevent an inquiry, another to
stop it wit;:u it was commenced. lie now thought it would
not be fair to either of the parties to interfere at this stage. No
measure could be substituted fur the Bill, till both parties bad
fairly been heard in the House of Lords. There was a point
connected with this subject, to which he could not but advert.
Ile war astonished that any one who professed to love liberty
should encourage the interference of the military in political
matters, as it was evident that the soldiery who aided the cause
of liberty to-day might to-morrow be mined against it. Ile did
not doubt the allegiance of the British troops; but as their was
no evil out of which good did not arise, he hoped that the inter-
ference of the troops on the Continent with politics would induce
Government. is teenier their military establishments, and resort
to amore constitutional species of force.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, the alarm in which tbe.country
was kept was less owing to any dread of the troops than to the
Press. Ile thought the /louse should not prorogue without Ric
Government spewing that it was disposed to cheek its industry...!
(clear! heat! from eke Ontosition).—lle spoke honestly, though
his of vations might be very imperfect. The Adtiresses pr.:,
sensed to the Queen were of a very violent nature.—lle had
seen the agitation of the Metropolis when the body of seamen
had passed through; not that any riot had ensued; but when a
number of men met together, they were liable to bad passions,
ani danger might ensue. There was a Meeting on Monday, at
which many thousands of persons were likely to attend ; great
alarm existed, and very considerable inconvenience was likely
to arise. How they were to be suppressed he did not see, but
the: Governuient should come forward, and assure the country,
that as far as legitimate power could be exercised to suppress
them, they would take care that there should be no fear the
popular feeling should go so far as to be dangerous to the Buil-
liltiollS of the country.
Mr. BERNAL said; that bad he not known what question
was before the House, he should have thought that the Honour-
able Member had been -engaged in advocating the Seditious
Meetings' or the Libel Bill—(Near)—or recommending some
similar new nefarious measures for the abridgment of general
liberty--(Hear, kcar).—Now, though what that lion. Merober
most dreaded was the Public Press, its great influence, and the
talent by which it was conducted, the House of Lords were not
actuated by such feelings when they did trot adopt the order, at
the commencement of the evidence, ordinarily made in Courts
of Justice—(Heur,hear)—but permitted the evidence against the
Queen, though it was calculated to do her great injury, to be
published iii the Newspapers—(Hear, hair).—The liberty of the
Press ought to be cherished by every lover of his country and
its Constitution, and if it produced such great benefits, as was
allowed by all, they ought to be prepared to bear with a little
occasional bet:me—(Hear, hear).
The cries for a division being then very loud,
Mr. HOBHOGSE obierved, that, being a young Member,
he should not press a division, did he not think that there was
no case made out for the
,Queen to defend herself against.
• The House then divided.' The numbers were :
For the. Amendment
Against it

Majority

PETITION FROM THE COUNTY' OF NORFOLK.

Me. COKE presented a Petition from the Freeholders of the
County of Norfolk against the Bill of l'ains and Penalties. The
Petition was numerously signed, and set forth that the subsea-
hers to it considered the refusal to grant her Alajesty a list of
witnesses, or a specification of times or places, as contrary to the
spirit of British justice. It concluded by intreating the House,
as it va!ued its own character, to reject the Bill of Pain* and
Penalties against her Majesty when it should come before them.