Star.
London, England, 1827-05-08 00:00:00

i n questlon.-tkat It was absolutely Dement"
should be adopted immediately fottifrlftl9ol
qulility to ireland.--(Heir) Havfreetli ►ted
the Hon. Gertlemain,seefted Wove changed
h.ain'it llligkff,efe as teen it he would assign
al-awing a neAlet given undet the circumsun
flear‘hear). It seemed, that now certain
„rsad gone over to the other side. they were not
free exertion of their judgments which they I
and he (Lord Chandos) was inclined to think,
true muse why the notice for an Abrogation of the Uniiin with
Ireland was tun-merely postponed, bet entirely abandoned—
(Cheeri). - He hoped that other Gentlemen would sot desert their
Principles-es well as the aide of the House they had formerly fa.
veered' elfth their presence,- and thus teach the country. which
once admired be chitratiter of an English Whig, to hold it dis-
graced and degraded—(Cheers).
Mr. M. FITZGERALD was most anxious, would the forms of
die goose allow him to do so, to remark•upon what had just been
41il—(. Go oar, go on," from the Opposition Benches. " Order,
order.")
Mr. MA BERLY rose, and was called upon by the Speaker to
• ddrsss the House on the point of order. The Honourable Gen.
denim said, that be wished to offer a few words in answer to the
Noble Marquis.
The SPIACIR then called on
s Mr. Si. FITZGERA LD to proceed. I presume (be remarked)
that in propodng not to bring forward my motion, I am remelts-
'sible to no person within'tfiese walls foe the manner in whisk' I
exercise my judgment—(Much cheering). But if there be lay
description of persons to whom I ant less responsible than to others,
it is to the decided and unqualified enemies of the Wm" I
espouse-...(Cheering from all elder). I not only deny that liffilint
has a right to call upon me to, accbtsnt tot the free exercise effilly
jadginent,
but-
Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE begged to speak to order. El,
believed that be was .perfectly regular in endeavouring to prevent
this conversation from going further, as there was no question be-
fore the House. The Hon. Member (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) had
done that which was Completely within his power, by withdraw-
ing his notice of motion, and he bad been followed by the Nrible
Marquis who had made remarks which might lead to a rooter.'
taboo winch the Speaker would instantly see was irregular.
The SPEAKER "aid,' unquestionably such conversation' are
disordedy, and any Member who wishes may object to them. ,
• aught, perhaps, to have called the Noble Laid (Claude') to order
• in the first instance—(hear, hear !) but at the lime he was proceed.
Mat Honourable Gentlemen near the Chair could perceive in what
way my attend*o was engaged. The House will permit me to ob-
serve, that it is extremely to be regretted that the individual ap-
pointed to watch and detect disorder, should be prevented from
discharging this duty until one side has already beewheard—(Hear,
bear). If the House expect me strictly and rigidly to carry its
orders into execution, which I am perfectly prepared to do, I only
hope that Hon. Members: will not think me guilty of personal 10.
attention if l do nut listen to such as beset the Chair with inquiries
upon other oubjects—(Hear, hgar).
Sir B. KNATCHRULL was observing, " If any thing could
ja tify the Noble Marquis"—wben he was interrupted by a geaeral
cry of " Order ," and after a single word front
Sir C. ;311 KRELL, Mr. M. Fitzgerald was skewed to withdraw
his notice.
Lord BELG RAVE presented a Petition prom Chester, against
the Roman Catholic Claims. His Lordship observed, that be could
nut concur entirely in the prayer of the Petition, viz." that no mea-
sure should be adopted by Parliament extending the power of the
Pope, because he was satisfied, that to grant the claims of the Roman
`Catholics would diminish, rather than extend the power of the
Pope in this Empire. He hoped that the friends of Emancipation
would select the time they thought most favourable fur renewing
the discussion, with a view to some practical result, and not merely
[Or the purpose of declamatory debate—(Hear!)
Sir 11. kIARDINGE took that occasion to remark
upon what had occurred a few moments previously, and
to express hi, regret that the Catholic Claims should be
sacrificed to other objects.—Here had the question been
ppktponr d sine die. He had always supp rted the
Catholic Claims, and should continue to support them
so lung as he should continue to have the honour of a ,
seat in that Ilouse; but w.en he perceived the ono. ,
sues resorted to by Hon. Members on the other side
of the House, he could not help saying, that they were ,
calculated to defeat the hopes of the Catholics. What
had been the conduct ,of Hon. Members at the other
side of the if 'use? One Right Hon. Gentleman, who ,
Willi not now a Member of that House (Lord Plunket),
declared on the 6tit of March last, in the debate on the
Catholic Question, that if anything favourable to it
could be urawn from the womb of fur Why, it was to be ,
effected only by the frequent discussion of the question ,
--(Hear, be s). What difference was there between ,
Match aid May? What had occurred since to alter
opinions then formed ?..-(Hear). Another Right Hon. ,
Gentleman, a Minister of the Crown, on the same oc-
cation, declared, that the Catholics were kept in a state
of oppression and persecution—yet, stow, he advocated
the postponement of the question—(Hear). It was very
evident, from what had passed, therefore, that the Ca-
tholic Question was to be sacrificed. Many of those
who had lately gone over to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, and gave him their support, only concurred with
him on that—the Catholic—Question alone. Ou that
of Parliamentary Reform, and, incited, on all other
great public questions, they differed from, and had tit&
tormlv pieviouslyrippoSed him. An Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, who had just then entered the House, and
who had been appoitned to the situation of Judge Ad-
vocate, had fur twelve years been opposed to the Right
lion. Gentleman, except on the Catholic Question,
wlich was a strokipg instance of the changes that had
lately taken place. The Catholic Question was aban-
doned—efforts were made to smother it, and the pur-
poses wins which the House was' not informed, and,
he efore, for the sake of their own consistency, in good
I.ith to the Catholics, and in order to the maintenance
of their own reputation in the eyes of the country,
ttho.e Honourable Members were bound to explain
eche motives of their conduct. When he heard from
a Right Honourable Gentleman in Match last, that the
cr.ntinual agitation of the Catholic Claims was necesa
s try to their success, and now when, in May, he found
a motion for their discussion withdrawn, he thought
explanation of the motive of such change of opinion and
conduct ought to be given. He just then perceived the
lion. and Learned Member for Winchelsea entering the
llouse.—(A long laugh, during which Mr. Brougham
took his seat). On a former occasion, when the Catho-
lic Question was debated, that Hon. and Learned Mem.
her accused a Right Han. Gentleman of monstrous
tergiversation respecting it, and of truckling to Minis-
teas. What had been the seply of that. Rght Hon.
Gentleman?—(Hear, hear, hear, from Mr. Brougham).
The Right Hon. Gentleman had now done the same
thing himself, with respect to his new adherents—for
be bad stipulated for the keeping back of the Catholic
Claims, owing to the ohjr ctious to them which he had
ascertained to exist in a veil high quarter—(Heat).—
Thus, he repeated, had the Caltoltc Q .estion been sacri-
ficed, as was evident from the withdrawing in May of a
notice for their discussion,which had been given inM arch.
Mr. M. Fl I ZGERALD said, if, as in the case of the•
gallant Officer who had just sat down, any Honourable
Member favourable to the Catholic claims had asked
him, either in or out of the House, on what grounds be I
had determined to withdraw his notice? he wouldhave
staked thein—(Hear.) His motion was, be frankly con-
fessed, intended to compro vise the whole of the Cacho-
.lie Question ; and his reason for withdrawing his ;mice
was, a conviction on his mind that the discussion of it
at the present moment would be injurious to the Ca-
tholic cause—(Hear, hear, hear.) If toy thing were,
wanting td confirm him in that view and that deternsi.l
nation, it was to be-found in the opinions of the Calbo-1

lion--(to.._
th it Resolution of the Catholic Body ought to com-
pletely controul his own judgment, even if at variance
with it ; and he felt too, that no person who was'zealcas
or sincere in that cause, could consistently press it under
eststiniciitumstances—(Heir, hear). The Gallant Offi-
cer had called upon him for explanation, but he thought
he was equally entitled to call upon that Hon. Officer,
and those who acted with him, for explanations of their.
sown coasisteney, in professing their zeal fot the Catholic
muse, while they placed themselves in the ranks'Of its
Most implacifile enemiet--/toud cheering). He had
bun most • ready, in the first instance, to state the
grounds of his conduct; but he had thought that he
ought not by doing so; to interrupt the public busints-.
Nothing could be more uncandid—onothing more unge
nerous—nothing more unjust to the Catholic clams,
than to attempt to press them now—(Hear). He would
contend, that the Noble Marquis (Chandos), at the other
side of the House, Nod no right to call upon him, or
limy other independent Member of, Parliament, to state
why he sat therd?—(Cheets). He denied the right to
do so on personal grounds—he denied it on Portia-
Mentary grounds—and he shOuld like to know why he
should not call upon the Noble Lord for the reasons why
he sat where he did--(Hear, hear)? He would tell
that Noble Lord, that he (Mr. F.) sat there bedaase it was
that aide or 'the House which was most opposed to the
Noble Lord's view of the Catholic Question—(Hear).
He sit there to assist in resisting that cabal of which the
Noble Lord appeared to be at thoSheado•-(Hear). He
had come there to give to his own opinions the same
support which other Hon.
,Membets did. He came
there, moreover, to give to his Majesty's Government
his support against a cabal—a faction—(Cheers.) He
came there more particularly, from a sense of duty, to
girc his best support to an Administration which in-
taided and promised well Tor the country at large ; but
in an especial manner, to his own unfortunate country.
He scorned any insinuatiOns against his consistency;
and he challenged any Hon. Member to bring forward
say charge of that nature against him—(Cheers).
. Lord HOTIIAN was unwilling to rem sin altoge-
ther silent on the present occasion, as he thought.him-
"self ia some measure called upon to declare his opinion,
nod the course of conduct which he meant to pursue.
*Looking round him. on all sides of the House, he
thought that the Ministers were the men most worthy
of•confidence, and thetefore he was disposed to place
the fullest confidence in them. stt. the same time, he
highly respected those who had resigned the situa-
tions which they had held as Members of, the former
Administration, and was sorry that any such charge
AS that of conspiracy should have been made agaiust
them. But although there was no coup:racy among
them, who could say that there was not a tacit un-
derstanding as to the line of conduct which they
should adopt. From the time when that affliction began
under which the Esul of Liverpool had unfortunately
laboured, who could believe that there was no commu-
nication between them on this subject, or at least a
t mit understanding as to the manner in which they were
to act ? And if there was such an understanding be-
tween them, the motive could hardly have been any
other than to endeavour, not to compel certainly, but to
induce his Majesty to abstain from placing she Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite at the head of the Adminis-
tration ?—(Bear, hear). His (Lord Hurls im's) confi-
dence was strong in the Rii,ht Hon. Gentleman, and
certainly was not diminished by seeing him surrounded
and supported by the old and tried friends of freedom
and liberality. He saw no incongruity in this at such
a time as the present, when party differeoces had been
almost extinguished; and it was surely highly condu-
cive to the best interests of the country, mere especially
in its present situation, that the ablest men in that
House should work together for its welfare—(Hear,
heat.) With respect to the Catholics, it was better to
let the subject alone, until they themselves should think
proper to come forward in their own course; and then
upon that, and upcn every other occasion, he was per-
sttaded that it would appear that none of the advocates
of liberty had abandoned their principles—(Hear).
Lord ALTHORPE said, when the new Administra-
tion was being formed, he entertained some doubts
about the propriety of identifying himself with it; but
those doubts had now been completely removed (Cheers).
He felt that they were now called upon to choose be-
tween liberal principles and bigotry in its most hideous
forms—(Hear, hear). He tegtetted he differed from
the Right Hon. Gentleman on two great questions—
Parliamentary Reform and the Corporation and Test
Acts Repeal ; but lie should consider that they were
madmen to seek to turn out the present Ministers, be-
cause they differed on those points, when by doing so they
must replace others with whom they differed on nut those
subjects only, but on those and all others—(Cheers).--
Sir R. COLBORNE thought, that as regarded the set-
dement of the Catholic claims, it it were well when it
was done, perhaps it would be well if '-were done
quickly ; but if present discussion would militate against
u:tirnate success, all friends to the measure were justified
in postponing
Lord NUGENT said he had felt it to be his duty to
support the Administration when he saw that a faction
WAS endeavouring to force itself upon the King. on the
principle of exclusion of the Catholic Claims. He and
those around film were asked what was the bond of
union between them and the Administration. He con-

sidered the persons who put such questions to be the
bond of union that drove him and his friends to sup-
port the Administration. The Catholic Claims and the
Test Acts repeal should have, however, his support,
whatever might be the course of the administration.
Mr. MABERLY said, having taken a prominent part
in the financial measures of the country, he must ex-
plain why, and on what terms, he gave his support to
the present Administration. He had at different pe-
riods brought tinder the consideration of the House the
repeal of the Dead Weight—the repeal of the Sinking
Fund—and the propriety of appointing a Committee to
inquire into the financial state of the country. Not-.
withstanding, then, that he gave his support to Govern-
ment, he should still stand up manfully in his place,
and endeavour to carry these points. He would not ask
the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) any questions ; but he would take the liberty
of urging him to allow the appointment of a Commit-
tee, such as he had referred to, in the early part of next
Session. If be thought this course would be pursued,
he would suspend quarrelling with the Estimates this

Oen-

Etc nag's'
his determination kb
ns, thus incident ill
him proper to say a
to which the H. n.

adverted, before they
_..

Shipping Interest) re-
.
4ttla ly appointed for the night, and which had again
been intertopted, in order that the House might so
far be aware of the intentions of Government. The
i subject was one on which the public would be glad
to receive an answer; and he therefore now stated, that
ittertainly was his intention, tally in the neat Session,
to propose the appointment of a Committee of this
House, to whom tire consideration of the state of the
.finances should he referred—.a Committee vim lar to
tip which had been appointed fur the same object three
times by Mr, Pitt; and once in Iso7, by Mr. Pe.ceval;
nod once in 1817, by Lotd B:xley. To that Committee
the revision of the state of the finances would be sub-
mitted; and he ought not to forget to mention, that it
had been the intention of his Noble Friend (Lord Code-
rich) to bring forward such a proposition this year, bad
it not been fot the remat kAble events which had lately
occurred. At the same time, he had to express his
confidence that the state of the finances was under foing
a gradual, slow, bat perceptible amendment; and to
whatever determination the House might come on this

subject, after having it fully investigated by their
Committee, he thought the interests of the public
would be best consulted by passing over the mat-
ter for this year 'as quietly as possible; and by
abstaining from resorting to' any extraordinary mea-
sures, or any thing that might occasion much agi-
tation and spechlation. He had only farther to say,
that he would on Friday next move the Supplies in
the Committee of Supply for that day ; and that, if
no particular reason to the contrary intet vene, he would
:tibias to the House the' Financial Statement, before
Whitsuntide. When the Supplies should be actually
moved, then would be the time for those who.e loyalty
to the King and zeal for the public service had induced
theni to propose the stopping of the Supplies, to bring
forward that proposition—(hear, heat); and not when
the only motion before the House was, that the question
of the Supplies should be postponed. He hoped that
without further delay, the II tune woald now proceed to
the question for the night; and not keep so many people
waiting without, in that state of anxiety which, under
the circumstances, they must at this time naturally
experience.
Lord MILTON hoped that he might still be permit-
and to say a few words, the design of which was to ex-
ptess his gratefdl satisfaction at the intention of the
Right Hon. Gentleman to refer the state of the finances
he the cointry to a Committee of that House. This
Was a measure which was now imperiously demanded ;
aid unless the Right Hon. Gentleman could, with the
aid of that Committee, find means to make the revenue
commensurate with the expenditure, or the expenditure
With the revenue, the c damities of the country, instead
of being relieved, would be greatly aggravated. His
Noble Friend-near him (Lord Althorp) Mid exactly ex-
pressed his sentiments with regard to the present Go-
vernment, and in what his Noble Friend had said he
filly concurred.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN had no hesitation in
shying that it was his wish to support the present Go-
vernment, and hoped that their measures word be
such as to en .ble him conscientiously to suppor them.
This much he thought it desirable for him to state,lkeing
Oise of the representatives of the capital of the kingdom.
Sir H. HARDING.E did not understand the toys-
teiinus add shuffling manner in which the Catholic
Question was attempted to be smothered.—The Peti-
tion was thin ordered to be printed.
Colonel DAVIES postponed his motion on the Estimates. Wilds
stood for Wednesday.

ry that some measure
we of restoring van- lies theusselves,lataly expressed at the largest aggregate Yaws selYilti with confidence on the i
d hie seat, with ah um meeting of that 4 dy that had taken place for ;posies demerit inteotlons.
rd his -opinions, and per- silfiers, cornpvising their Nobility, Clergy, and Gentry, ' Tl)a eHANCEII.I.O4 of tire I
Alliscsagh it had certainly heen hit
I his reasons flit with. ;nd in which' atilt; solitary individual had expressed
take no Share in these discussions,
flees just mentioned— 'his distOt fibs; theltesolution to refrains how pressing
Honourable Mambodotedyet it ail
not allowed the mo, (Nit claiths at the Vivant rnotnevisoLlfleat, hear) That iOi:o s --- "PPetir to hit
li6rds respectirg the metier to
!y formerly rissoles! ; fact Aisne would have been sufficient for his (Mr. Fitz 4 it,
nk, that this was the Retold's) justification—(Cheers ,lor he considered, Gentleman Who spoke last had ads
—..., .h. 1 Tninn urith .t_ ... 11.--...1..•:..... ..0 tism r.thalie Rode oueht to coat- entered upon the question (the Shif