Star.
London, England, 1819-12-08 00:00:00

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Sir R. FERGUSON called the attention of the
House to the statement that had been teferred to by
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), respecting a Meeting
to consider of the rate of wages, at Which it had
been said a few Radicals had changed the whole of
the proceedings, by introducing the question of Par-
liamentary Reform. The statement was totally With-
out foundation. At the Meeting in the county of
Fife, consisting of from eight, to ten thousand per-
sons, there were not more than 450 Radicals pre-
sent, and these were persons who merely•called for
the Reform planned by Major Cartwright, and who.
he believed, to be innocent of all crime against the
State. The People in that part of the country had
conducted themselves with the greatest propriety,
though their distress was severe, as a man who
worked fifteen hours in the day could earn but the
miserable stipend of half-a-crown a-week.
Mr. WYNNE wished that some provision. should
be introduced into the clause,. to declare that house-
holders should nut be allowed to attend'Meetings
of freeholders,. or"Ceunty Meetings, which were ge-
-1 nerall, composed of such. For a householder was as
much a stranger to an assembly of freeholders, as an
inhabitant of London would be at a Meeting at York.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL contended, that it
had been the geoeral practice to allow householders
to attend Meetings of freeholders; it was intended to
maintain the law on that footing, and the clause had
been so w4rded for the purpose of avoicfitig the in-
ference and conclusion drawn by the lionoui^ablel
Gentleman.

After a few words from Mr. PROMOS; Mr. Ha
NEYWOOD, and Lord CASTLEREAGN, the proposition
to exclude householders was abandoned.
Mr. GRAHAM inquired, whether the former Re-
presentative of any place of which he was not .a free-
man would have any right to attend a Meeting at
that place to give ah account of his conduct to those
who had been hiseConstituents? He had thehonour
of representing tht County and Town of Hull, of%
which he was not a freeman, and he thought it world
be rather harsh, if, .at the end of the present Parlia-
ment, he should not be permitted to attend a Meet-
ing
of his Constituents.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that an exception
was already made with respect to Meetings for Elec-
tion purposes, and he had no objection to take out of
'the operation of the Bill all Meetings of Voters which
might occur between the issuing of Speaker's writ
and the return of a Member.
Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that this would not
remove the objection stated by his Honourable Friend,
and pledged himself to prove what he now advanc •
when that part of the Bill should be before the House.
'Mr. WILLIAMS proposed an Amendment, tend;
ing to allow persons who had the right of voting for
the election of a Member in Parliament, although
non-residents, to attend the Meetings held at the place
for which they were entitled to vote. •
The gallery was cleared, but the Amendment was
negatived, and .the original clause agreed 'to without
a division.—On strangers being-ye-admitted,
Lord CASTLEREAGH wink arguing against an
Amendment proposed by Lord Althorpe on the clausti
declaring the attendance of strangers at Meetings a.l
misdemeanotir. The Abeniinnent tended to make it
a misdemeanour for a stranger to address,- but not to
attend a Meeting.
Mr. MARRYATT conceived the clause to be
really harsh, and should vote for the Amendment.
'Mr. ROBINSON contended, that if the clause was
not adopted as it now stood, the whole object of the
Bill would be defeated, and masses of stranger's might
continue to pour into Parish Meetings.
Mr. PRIMROSE supported the Amendment. •
Mr. BATHURIVE :asked, to what purpose to
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House had been -lAting the descriptiOn.o.f persons
who should be allowhi to assemble, if Meetings were
to be thrown open to the admission of all strangers,
by the adoption of the Noble Lord's Amendment?
Lord FOLKESTONE supported the Amendreent.
Mr. BROUG HAM observed, that large Meetings
would be held in the country. The attendance of
strangers would be rendered needless at such Meet.
ings, as no accounts could go forth of what happened
at them. (Here the Attorney and Solicitor General
turned towards each other). It might, perhaps, be
considered not to signify, whether those who- give
nth accounts to the Public attended or not. They,
probably, were to be treated with contempt. (Here
the Honourable and Leamed Member made some ob-
servations on the attempts made by the Attorney Ge;.
sesial to subvert the Constitution). It was, he ob-
i itereed, of consequence that Reporters should attend
such Meetings. They were a part of the comma-
eaiity
; reporting was dietr trade, as mach as the at,
lendance of the Attorney General in a Court of Law
was his profession—as much as his attendance to the
interests of his constituents was his duty. The busi-
ness of Reporters was an itspertant one ; were it not
for them the Public dould not receive accurate• ac-
counts of what was passing in the country. It was,
perhaps, below the consideration *of the Attorney Ge-
neral to look so low as to'consider how reports were
prepared for the Press. It was unwerthi of him,
considering the high eminence on which he was
placed, to look to such matters—(Hear, hear,isear),
But he hoped, that he (Mr. Brougham) writ) -was
placed nearer the station of Reporters, might be
`allowed to know' something of the matter. Ho re-
peated, that in this Bill there was no prevision which
snowed the attendance of that meritorious class of
persons at any of these Meetings. How were those
k situated ? They were not freeholders •
=in, they were not freeholders of elosties,S
were not resident householders in parishes Ott*
eould they Attend any of those Meetings? Be.
questions to be discussed of ever is tnomentotis
nature; no matter whether it was a Meeting to 00,1
cuss the property-tax, sr any other irbporrant questime,l
from the observations upon which the House 111 W
take a suggestion as to its decisions; no matterWintl
ther it was to
the People;
'encourage the
reign enemy,
purposes ; the
A visit from .
a state of inefficac•
the Noble Lou'
clauses for the ex
frees such Meetings.
to what were they
Meetings to b•
Were the r

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of ototantY?—.4 very **el officer, to be lure, but
'thel_ot(ezearays4terlikel.f _towbeere they anexpett writer of short-
hand
to Icink to the Custos
Rotulorum, or High-Sheriff, neither of whom,
though highly serviceable, could be expected either
to attend to, or be able to write short-hand?, They
had next to look to the Freeholders—and it the
Honourable Member for Montgomeryshire had car-
ried his Amendment, they would have none but Free-
holders and Country Gentlemen to look to. Under
such circumstances, he would ask, what chance was
there to expect that a fair account of such proceedings
could be laid before the Public ? For these reasons, ,
as well as those urged by his Honourable Friends, he,
hoped the Amendment would be adopted.
The ATTORNEY-GENERALobserved, that after
the most unprovoked attack •--(Loud cries of Hear;
'hear!)—he repeated, after the most unprovoked and
tilideserved attack which had been made uppn him—,
an attack, which he had not uttered a single syllable
tcr deierve, lie felt it necessary to trespass upon the,
House for a few moments. It was said that he enter-
tained contempt for that body of persons called Re-
porters. What had he said contemptuous of them ?
What had he 'said of them at all? He had never
spoken of them during the night. He bad attended
to his Honourable and Learned Friend,' as he• was
bound to do, in order to obviate his objections to' he
Clause, but he .jeclared that in supporting that Clause
he had no view ; he had never given any opinion that
any set of persons should be excluded, except by the
general provisions of the Act—( Hear, hear tfrow the
Opposition). The Right Honourable Gentleman, after
some observations in ansveer to some arguments
urged against the Clause, begged the House to excuse
his warmth on this cccaston ; the attack made upon
him necessarily made him feel warm. The object of
that attack was with a view to. render him obnorioes
to arespectableclass of persons; against whom he bad
never uttered a sylleblet but with whom he could not
expect to stand on the same terms as his Honourable
and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham). Having said
se much, he now came back to-the Amendment. It
would, if carried into effect, go to destroy the enact-
ments of the Bill. The object of the Bill was to pre-
vent tumultuary Meetings i the Clause necessarily
went to authorise. fh Meetings.
Mr. BROUGH. M said, that he had made the
eito4
observations of h his Honourable and Learned
Friend, the A e] -General, complained, as he
not only hea dicheer on the other side, when
he spoke of Reporters, but he also -observed what
he conceived a motion of contempt spade by hfin
(the Attorney-General) at the same time—(Cries
of lib, no a)—Gentlemen who were placed behind,
and Who could not see what passed,.might easily say
No ; but there was not one who:was then roaring No f
who could have seen the' movement to which he al,
luded. He was, however, now aware that fie bad
misunderstood his Honotitable sod Learned Friend
—(Hear!)—There was not any man Who was'more
rigid against Reporters, or who had more zealously
supported the privileges of the House when it was,
invaded by them ; arid', added the Honourable MOP.'
her, there is no one,who has antlered more under
He only
-spoke of Repertoire as a neefub body, in
k to the. Publit fair, accounts. of whet petrel
Pith& Meetings. • .
. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL denied thrit he
had aimed when Reporters were spoken of.' Fie Midi,
merely turned to speak to hit Honourable 'end'
Learned Friend (the Solicitor-General) ors the effect
Which the clause would have in excluding Re-'
porters-.--(Hear). .
The SOLICITOR-GET4ERAL said, the Attorney--
General had turned to him and remarked, that the
clause would have the effect of excluding Reporters:
from those Meetings. The Honourable and Learned
*ember (Mr. Brougham) ought to have heen satis-
fied of the facts, before he indulged in observations
of suck's' style and character as those he had used—
(aieerefrow the MinisteriaL,Bensches).
Mr. DENMAN supported the Amendment:-.
Strangers Might be present, properly and meritori-
ously, as at Meetings when the distinguished Candi-
dates at Liverpool delivered speeches, and might listen
for the purpose of improving their minds. The
Amendment would have been se much (or the inte-
rest "trf the other side, that he had hoped that the
clause would. have been withdrawn, but for the per-
sonal altercation which had taken place. He (Mr.
Denman) regretted the warmth into which the At-
torney-General had been led—(Hear, hear).
Lord CASTLEREAGH said he believed his Ho-.
nourable and Learned Friend had said/lathing which.
could bear the construction of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, (Mr. Brougham.) The only person from
whom any thing had fallen, which could lead in any
:henna to the supposition of the Hon. sad
Gentleman' Was himself.—trot be was niatakeLeXt
supposed he expressed any disrespect fro the class of
individuals 'in question; ibr he felt none. If any'
number of persons, in addition to the inhabitants of
a parish or division, were to have liberty to join a
-Meeting, provided they took no part in the -t
logs of the Meeting, then 50,000 persons Ili
haps, meet, and thus they would. ave the
ter Meeting over again. All the tumultuary Chime
ter of the Manchester Meeting would not only hd
permitted, but even encouraged. The only effect 4
Ouch a clause would be to leave bothMagistraterind i
, . e hi doubt what diey should do, and what thetJ
should not do. :f. j• 4
Mr. STUART 'WORTLEY, though he conctur4
In opinion with his Noble Friend, could • not, at the
same time, helpthiuising there was a greaticlealie
what hiedfalleft from the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman. It was qf great importance that all pro-,
ctedings at Public Meetings should be reported, tkkap
they might know what passed at them. He ,
y, that the publication of the• prdteedings of
late Meetings had, in his opinion; been of the
'blends' imicrtance. It had opened the eyes of j
if anything were ti
before the

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ofus the waytheir oreting to discise that sibjeet, at
ti the publishing there proceedings.. . _
Mr. Kisaisno and Mi. W. SKIT" ShispOitesLitie
Clause.
Mr. MARTIN •(Of Galway) doubted ',belt:her it
would not be prudent to prevent repOrti of such
Meetings from being published. .'• l'. P P:t. ,4.• :
abetter this
ST
pUeArrnßiTssioWnOofßßTeLivrtEt
eisthotouthta would be
Meetings
were introduced in a clause by 'itself.
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought, if this permis-
sion were granted at all, it ought to be done by a
separate clause. His Lcrdship considered it a very
serious question.z-(Heer, Hear).
1 The motion was then negatived. Some of the tel
.aa • ing clauses habing-teen gone through,, .
• A conversation then took place on the reedit*
ni
lef.the seventh clause, by which it is provided, that
persons committing the misdemeanour therein -de:
stfribed, shall be liable to two yeate imprisonment...
Mr. DENMAN prop:hod to substitute, instead of
two years, an alteration of the term to that of one year. •
Mr. WM. SMITH supported this Amendment.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL said, he was 'not
aware of any objection to the introduction of a clause
for this purpose, and to the providing that, after a
limited time, no prosecution ihould be entertained. ,
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that as he conceived
the 'punishment's inflicted by our Courti of Justice to
he as mild as the nature of the cases would permit, it
might be conformable to their principles•of proCeed:7
ing to mitigate in this initanee the penalty to one
year's imprisonment, according to the Ainendment
of the Honourable end Learned Gentlematt—The
Amendment•was accordingly adopted. .
Mr..W. SMITIA said be conceived it tirit highlf
improper to proceed further at so late an hodr (past .
one) in the morning, and moved that the Contunttoe .
should repOrt progress.'
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, it was net art
hour usually considered inconvenient for business:
Mr. W. SMITH said lie felt it a public duty to
endeavour to prevent matters of such ebnsequence to
the Public being proceeded in at that hour, and he
should take the sense of the House on the question.
, • The Gallery was.then cleared for a division.—Yor
the Adjournment, 34—Against it] 66—Majori t y,l SY:
. Mn BROUGHAM said, he felt it hii dutrto sub-
mit a motion to the House, with the view •of pre ~
venting the subject before the House being.proceeded
in at an hour when it could not be discussed:
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, if the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman spoke thesentiments of the
Gentlemen of the party to which he belonged, it was
no doubt possible for him to put a stop to further
proceedings at that time. He could not help re-
membering, Inswever,• that in another stage of this
Bill the HonourableGentletions had had no merty on
the House at a much later hour—(Hear, hear I) If
at a later hour the Honourable Gentleman could find •
strength to speak for two hours, and te enter into a
discussibn of several subjects, nbt very closely con-
nected with the question, bin could find no strength
to go on any longer now—and if the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman was surrounded by Gentlemen
Alt such very feeble health that it would 'be very much
einLingered by proceedingi farther with the business
at that time, he- sup he should be obliged to
give vfay to them. But-the House and the country,
he• hoped, would not misunderstand the reason why
he now put off the business, and would see that he
,had not done more than his duty in trying to proceed
wjth a subject of so much importance to the country,
with as little delay as possible—(Hear, hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM said, when he took the trouble
of detaining the House for two hours with a discus-
sion of what the Noble Lord had been pleased to tall
many general subjects, he had only to state, that 1%
did it. with very great and very unfeigned reluctance
-.l(legr,hear, hear). He would repeat, that he did
it with very, great - and very unfeigned reluctance=-:
and he begged to state the reason why; It was not
that he felt any reluctance in coming forward on that
occasibn, to do that which the proper discharge of
his duty demanded, but it was painful to him to ad-
Arms the House, when he perceived he was speaking
to- so great a number bf Members of Parliament,'
who were so •impatient to listen to any opinions dif-
fering from their own. When he felt he was ad-
' dressing a Room of CoMmonp who- writ determined
at comp to pass the most severe.measures against
their Constituents,-and, at the same time,' determined
':not to hear one word in fafour.of those Con.;tititents--
'ear, heat, Isear)..who, at the very time they were
'met to pass the most severe =mutes against Po'
pular Assemblies, which they termed rabble routs,
'incapable of listening to discussion, affirming that rid
discussion or deliberation was' known, except within
thin wars, were themselves exhibiting an impatience
discussion, which could hardly be eiceeded at any
Meting whatever ; for he did find, within the 'two
during which he addressed the House? such
pOseeedings on the part of the audience be was then
addressing, as he bad seldom, if ever, witnessed uh
the Most stormy hustings. That was the cause. of
,the reluctlnce which he felt, whit% was sometimes
mingled with shame for the conduct of those 'Amu
he addressed-tharnighta The reason why he had ad.
dressed the House at so late an hour was, that in Ho-
nourable Gentleman, not now in his place (Kr.
'Canning), but who, if he were to Jive a hundred
years, would never make such a* observation .ps
bad fallen from the Noble Lord tonight.-had ad-
dressed the House for nearly three hours. immedi- ~
ately before. It would, no doubt, have keen very
convenient for the Noble Lord, that speeches on
that side of the House should not be answered; but it
did not square with his notions of ditty to leave that ,
speech unanswered.' He had no wish to throw &-
stades in the way of carrying on the public business
oltiettountey; but it was a matter of fact, that it
was impossible' to go on any longer with the discus-
sion .06 the Whams clauses and nsost multifarious,
ea which musainedfor them. 41e did impkne
I deliberate
• all candour

Ware
obits:leo ia die
• ha acted
had not
and ab-

rotative to

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;gleam as to ILS amnions; nu 'mumps .....-- .................—,________ __ •k
stobe a Meeting to inflame the loyalty of country: He should be sorry if anything wee to mitteri Which reitamedfor thew 41e did it
e; no matter whether it was a Meeting to occur to prevent laying such prciceedingt before the. the Rase. if they bad any disposition to delibe
the Country against the inersion of a fo- country. He hoped, in some way or other, an •7,- ;ii their alarm was not sash as to shut oat all cs
my; no mutter atheism for any of these option weld be made for persons attendingg-for the ~ ~ their breasts--tie did implore them to I
; the Country were to know nothing of it. purpose of •I_Ling. ' . . . . •..t ..; ; shut it was not with a view to throw obitacles
sat a Magistrate reduced such a Meeting to Mt. mAnnu. Witnessed himself afoot; .•J; : . way of klinistan,- nor hem ill temper, that ha
inefficacy. which, he believed in his • souls the publication ofd onts of the prOceed sof. , if Is, pow did, but. eimldy, beam. they hi
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Lord nevet intended, when he framed 'III hiss was of the uft*hlsisoftarste. blio -' ; aresisoh.Left to go on farther with the diicossi
cit,,
c the exclusion of Hunt and a few others not approve 'of itimsdat!Pailliznente
.00 ,..-:.: •, -- Tic copiaitt“ then riposted program. a
I Meetings. If this clause were riot given up, Suffrage, he Was le 'Wife Reihntier. , Ir. istotin* *. . rune sit, mai* tofday. • .
rare they reduced? Were tha debatda at su the County to istichlsrbeiongedit a.-: , . ,
.iia, 'pi' • : giliAlfposqxiiid his nodss news'
to be reported? How were thej tobrinortlia? lent,' of tile PebPte ;11.WftWous leri, . . •. . :9-1•. •,. : • ip, Prot•etwo, Thom ail to-wwww. .
Pubis te depend apili the I.3td lailiolman! 'Alfons ; Odle thosiKlablfit)iitt , • 331.... :- , . ~. '. ,-;.. .e road a Two o'clocki
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