Star.
London, England, 1821-06-27 00:00:00

IRISH REVENUE COMMISSIONERS.

On the Order of the Day for the third reading of
the Irish Revenue Inquiry'l3ill being read,
Mt. DENMAN took this opportunity of again
urging his objections to the appointment of the Mem-
ber for Beaumaris (Mr. F. Lewis) as a Member of the
Commission to be appointed under this Bill with sa-
lary. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman con-
tended that the principle thus adopted of allowing
persons holding office under the Crown to have seats
in the House, was a most mischievous and unconsti-
tutional one. When his Honourable Friend (the Mem-
ber for Beaumaris) said he should despise himself, and
wished the ground to open and swallow him,
" Taimajwia:
if he could suspect for a moment that taking this office
would make any alteration in his political conduct,
he had no doubt his Honourable Friend was sincere
in what he said; but be (Mr. Denman) could not, on
this occasion, refrain from adverting to the instance
of the virgin of old, who made a vow of celibacy,
and in a few days afterwards was a wife, or some-
thing else—(Hear). The Ilonourable Member pro-
deeded to cite several instances in which Members had
taken the appointment of Commissioners of Inquiry
on various subjects, but without salaries; and said he
should move, as an Amendment, that Mr. Lewis,
being a Member of the House, should either take
this situation without salary, or accepting it with sa-
lary,-should thereby vacate his seat; and he would
also move that the third clause should be omitted en-
tirely, as k provided that persons taking these si-
tuations on the nomination of the Crown hereafter,
should not vacate their seats in the House of Com-
mons, if Members, or render them ineligible to be
Members hereafter."
The Bill was then read a third time.
Mr.DENMAN moved first that Mr. Lewis's name
should be omitted in the Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
of opinion, and had no doubt the House would agree
with him, that the appointment of the Honourable
Member for Beaumaris was one most honourable to
the House, and likely to be most advantageous to
the Public.
Mr. ROBHOUSE had nothing to do with the per-
sonal character of the individual appointed ; he cared
not whether the individual was the best or worst
fitted for the office, still his
,objection would be the
lame; the objection was to the principle.
Mr. SMYTH (of Cambridge) combated the ob-
jections to the appointment of his Honourable Friend;
if the doctrines now contended for were adopted,they
would have the mischievous effect of excluding ta-
lents without property from the service of the State.
Mr. S. RICE also supported the appointment of
Members of the House to this Commission, that they
might hereafter be before Parliament to answer for
their conduct in their situations.
Mr. D. BROWNE defended the Irish Government,
and especially the Excise department, and Post-office.
Mr. SCARLETT contended that the appointment
ought not to have been a parliamentary appointment'
with a utlary.—The Amendment was then negatived

without a division, as were some :•other verbal
Amendments.
Mr. DENMAN wished to -have the Bill printed
before it proceeded farther.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saw
no necessity for the delay of printing.
Mr. DENMAN said, he should then propose a
clause, that no Member of that House becoming a
Commissioner should receive a salary or remnnerauon.
The. CH ANC &LIM of the E)C H EQUER said,
the clause was unnecessary, as no Member of Parlia-
ment could be appointed by the House with a salary.
Mr. DENMAN said, he would propose that the
debate be adjourned to Friday, and in the meantime
the Bill be printed, and on this question he would
take the sense of the House.
The galleo, was then cleared for a division
For the Motion - 31 1 Against it - - 75.

Lord MILTON objected to the giving salaries to
Members who did not already enjoy salaries and places.
He bad no objection to Members of Parliament being
appointed ; but as there were upwards of seventy
Members of the House who had salaries under the
Crown with but little to do for such salaries, why was
not the Commission made up out of that number?—
The Noble Lord concluded by moving a clause, that
no Member of Parliament now, or hereafter to be
appointed, under this Commission, should receive
any renunexation or salary on account thereof.
The gallery was again cleared for a divison
' For the Clause
Against it
Majority -
The Bill was then passed, and ordered to the Lords.
NSW LANARK.
Mr. MAXWELL rose, pursuant to notice, to move
for the appointment of a Commission to examine: into
the feasibility of Mr. Owen's Plan. The Han. Mem-
ber spoke as follows:—It is painful to contemplate
the nakedness and famine in the midst of plenty—to
hear that the shower of May and the sunshine of July,
are a curse—to know that those who clothe our fields
with luxuriance, and animate the landscape with their
fircks, must withdraw their eyes from the smiling
face of nature, to the bitter perspective of a bank-
ruptcy and a dungeon. When we behold the igno-
rant Stoicism of those who have induced such disor-
der in practice, and such impiety in theory, like Nero
looking with unpitying eye on the sorrows they have
caused, we ate tempted to exclaim, in the words of
an amiable French woman, on tracing the ravages
of the modern Brennus in Switzerland—" Les mon-
tagnes furent verdoyantes comme autrffois les prairies
florissantes comme jadis, le cur d'homme scul pour-
quid n'etoit it qu'un desert." The calamities which
have sprung from Corn Laws, inequitable to the con-1
sumer, and useless to the Agriculturist—from a sa-
crifice of the present generation by a Vansittart, to
atone for the folly of a past one under the auspices of
a Pitt, have travelled through the labouring classes,
and the productive capitalists, and are now settled
on the land-owner, and those who could not appre-
ciate the effects upon others, doomed labour to die
down to the level of wages, or visited their convul-
sive movements Stith the stern compression of mili-
tary power, are subjected, by the perfect justice of
PROVIDENCE, to a more convincing evidence, by its
action upon themselves. I hope they have nearly
expiated their offence against HEAVEN, by their neg-
lect of the manufacturing districts, and the time is
fast approaching when the Monied Interest will find
it right to yield the inequitable increase which the
Legislature, with good intentions, and great folly,
have ignorantly bestowed upon it, and to lower their
rent upon the community from five to four per cent.
to obviate the tardy but certain application of the
sponge of necessity. I lament the sufferings of the
Landlord, of the Merchant, and Of the Manufac-
turer; but their interests will be protected who hold
Boroughs, or thrust themselves on the House through
the trafficking privileges of the Citizens of Cornwall.
My object is to call the attention of the House to the
unrepresented labourer of the British Empire, who
has drained his best veins for the House of Hanover,
and now, with impaired force, but unshaken forti-
tude, is working the vessel of the State out of that
maelstrom into which a rash and ignorant pilot had
steered it. I shall endeavour to prove, not that the
poor man has been ill-treated by the Legislature, or
that he has been neglected by the Government, but
that his interests have been misunderstood, and his
condition overlooked, both by one and the other ;
and that the indignation which he feels against his
wealthy neighbour, and his want of loyalty to the
institutions of the country, is misdirected, and in
some degree n,isapplied. The inclosure of commons,
since the year 1760, has been stated by a judicious
and intelligent inquirer into the principles of labour,
and of Poor Laws, to amount to 5500, and that the
increase of the Poor Rates'appears to have kept pace
with the loss of their common-rights--the green mea-
dows, which our benevolent and wise foi eathers had
destined as the life-rent property of successive gene-
rations of villagers, the solace of their evening homes,
and the arena of their infantine gambols, has become
the haunt of the pettifogging attorney, or the un-
sightly villa of some sordid money-lender. The poor
man, dependent on his employer, became the me-
nial of the farmer and tradesman, instead of his in-
dependent and unshackled domestic. But Mr. Pitt,
by a restriction on the issue of metallic curtency,
and a long and expensive war, soon rendered the
nominal shilling of Great Britain, the real sixpence
of barter, and the employer found it much better to
give money than subsistence to his work-people.—
Unable to maintain his family in the decency of a
happier era of his life, the uncomfortable and morti-
6ed man sought refuge in the crowded assemblies of,
manufacture, where, if his mean appearance was less'
noticed, and his humiliation unknown, a less cleanly
cottage, and equal wages, were gladly exchanged for
those altered scenes, and that humbled position which
"degraded his mind and wounded his spirit. But here,
alas, he was doomed to meet with new misfortunes;
And no sooner had the extravagant system of Mr.
Pitt carried taxation to a given point, than artificial
labour,evading his burdens, was launched in half-taxed
elasticity, to tear away the abundant supply of bread,
which loans at home, and exclusive commerce abroad,
was beginning to bring within the workman's reach,'
as it had already done to the other classes of society.'
Again brought back to the penury and privations
with which he was before, assailed, he entered into
combinations with his fellow-workmen, in imitation
of his rich employer ; but his wealthy model :hewed I
him that what was lawful to riches was illegal to po-i

verty, and the manufacturer showered from his Bo.:
rough-throne the scalding leaven of the Combination ,
Laws on his audacious head. Disgusted with h s
rulers, enraged with his employer, his indignant feel-
ings attack machinery, and, caught in the act, he is
immured in a cell, or transported to New South
Wales. The term of confinement or banishment or-
-rives, and his grey hairs are sent.kack to whiten on,
the pittance of poor rates, or, as a pivot and automa-
ton of some smoked and greasy steam-engine, he
mendicates the means of life by the degradation of
human nature. This I believe to be a faithful picture
of the Unrepresented labourer, who will, whilst I have
a seat in this House, nes er want a feeble, but, I hope,
a sincere advocate; and I ask the man, who has the
common courage of his species, if these wrongs might
not have tempted him to take up " arms against a
sea of troubles, and by opposing end them," as my
misguided and suffering countrymen did at Bonny-
muir ? If any one can doubt that this is the situation
of the labourers of this country, let him inspect the
Hulks, the Jails, the Bridewells, the Penitentiaries—
let him read the Press which writes for the Poor—let
him visit the Manufacturing Districts—let hitnexa-
mine the most religious and loyal part of the artisans
d mechanics of the island, and his scepticism will
disappear. Crime and disaffection could not grow ,
as they do, in spite of the exertions of the religious
philanthropy of the Public, if some great injustice
did not exist in the distribution of the profits of la-
bour, or in the imposition of the public burdens: the
violent language of the Press could not be relished if
the people of this enlightened land did not feel them-
selves deeply injured by the privileged and influential
daises of society. The orations of a demagogue, and
the inflammatory style of an Editor, are the effects,
and not the cause of public dissatisfaction; both are
the barometers of the sentiments of their readers, and
their interests make them, as much as their specula-
tive opinions, a faithful index of political feeling.—
Having made these teniarks to spew the motives and
impressions which have led me to take the Petition
of the County of Lanark, I shall proceed to ',cilia out
what appears to me to be the nature of Mr. Owen's
schemes, although my practical efforts have been
and will be directed to another channel, and devoted
to reduce taxes, not only to relieve the labour of the
country from the fetters of a forty per cent. property
tax, but to save it from the undue influence of the
Crown, and from misgovernment. Mr. Owen con-
ceives, that the substitution of the spade for the
plough, and a re-union of r oral labour to the task of
the artisan and mechanic—with a judicious combi-
nation of the general stock of industry, and with the
savings of fuel, cf the profits of retail and of time in
the management of a family, added to a system of
education, enforcing the practice of honesty, sobriety,
industry, and benevolence, would permit the working
classes of society to derive most of the necessaries
and a greater share of the happiness of life, and
rescue them from the degradation and its conse-
quences—vice and disloyalty, which now has become
their Tot. How far his conception is just, how far
his theories might be reducible to practice, it is im-
possible to say ; but lie undoubtedly has rendered
that establishment over which he presides unusually
and peculiarly exempt from bad feelings and from
profligate lives, without in any way wasting the pro-
perty over which he is superintendent and joint pro-
prietor, although restricted in his plan by want of!
land, and inconvenienced by a too nunierous popula-
tion and an imperfect habitation. The tendency of
his plan would unquestionably be to increase the
consumption of the poor, and consequently to aug-
ment the value of all articles of home pi oduction—
of course, to render taxation less oppressive, and to
diminish the expenses of Government, by reducing
'the number of starving and disaffected persons. The
Honourable Member concluded by moving—" That
an Address be presented to his Majesty, praying that
he will be graciously pleased to appoint a Commis-
sion to be sent to New Lanark, to examine into the
condition of the working classes, and to inquire into
any further arrangement proposed by Mr. Owen, for
the benefit of the labouring classes; and to assure
his Majesty that this House will pay the expense
of the same."

Mr. DAWSON seconded the motion. He regret-
ted that this motion had not been brought forward
at an earlier period of the Session, as an opportunity
would then have been afforded by the result of the
investigation, of removing the objection of many
Hon. Members on this subject.' The time, however,
was so far apropos, that the adoption of this motion
was sure to be grateful to the suffering nation.—
They had got through the principal business of the
year; they bad voted the Supplies; examined the
Estimates with patience and attention ; and discussed
the causes of the distresses of the country. The
Supplies were retained nearly at their maximum ;
the nation had sunk deeper in its difficulties, and
therefore became less able to support its burdens ;
but no remedy bad been attempted to be practised
—Weary—They bad an Agricultural Report, and
he wished he could say that none such had been
made ; for, with all due respect for those who had
produced it, he could not help regarding it as most
inefficient to its purpose—(hear).—After answering
all the theories of every speculative political econo-
mist, it summed up by declaring that the merchant
must be content to curtail the extent of his com-
mercial undertakings, the landlord to receive less
rents, and the shopkeeper less custom. This Report
had completely disappointed the expectation of the
nation—(Hear).—lt was when the country was in
this lamentable state—when there was no hope for
the labourer, and despair for the landlord, that an
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Scarlett)
brought in a Bill to regulate the administration of
reliet to the Poor, which was not only of a most in-
efficient nature, but calculated to stultify the humane
spirit of British legislation—Wear, /uar).—l•rom
the state which the country was in, he thought the
House was bound to inquire into every plan pre-
sented to it which held out a promise of relief. The
Hon. Member eulogised, in forcible language, the
system practised at New Lanark. With regard to
those who opposed Mr. Owen's Plan, he would say
to the sceptic, that no state of things could be worse,
and the prejudiced he would bid look at the progres-
sive advancement into genetal use of steam-en-
gines and gas. M. Owen's Plan was at least ap-
proved by thirty-seven Magistrates, who had peti-
tioned to that effect.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did ample
justice to the motives of those who camc (Q ward du

be
ableilnidetorstl
the present occasion as the advocates of a s
the general ralief of the Poor. Hnet,e,ntpe.rtairtii,nedlll,4l}t:pf:
ever, great doubts that they would
Riede Parliament to accede to the propositio
the Hon. Member (Mr. Maxwell), host ever ca
-tF
eating the picture he had siraw
the country. It ay:4s a serious question for parr,:
meet whether they would cause ,to consider t!,%;
selves in the situation of parties bares ohme
sible for the effect upon the minds of the countryear
an opinion expressed by them on the merits of aya
Owen's Plan. The Hon. Member,
his motion, invited the House to address the Ore"
to cause an investigation to be Made of Mr. Own.;
system of social administration, and to reprice owl
House thereupon. The consequence would he, that
the (louse would be called upon to orient a sum of
money for a trial of the system. The Honourable
Member who had spoken last in so ingeriou, a mat.
net; bad,' he thought, treated rather lightly the la;
boors of one part of the Session; and the way it
which he had treated that part of the subject ought.
in his opinion, so serve as an additional caution%
the House how they acceded to this motion. ,NO,:
withstanding the panegyric bestowed on this Plat
by the Hon. Member, it was likely that the R.spett
.of the Commission would be as unsatisfactory as tit
result of the labours cf the Agticultural Corm.l
• a me,
in which he could assure the Hon. Member he 44
spent many a weary morning. The Flom-arable
Member (Mr. Dawson) told them that. this R
Rep
was a complete disappointment to the country, and
it was to avoid the multiplicity of those disappoint.
ments to the country he now seconded this mocks.
He could not consent that the country, after being
taught that a system was about to he put in practice
which would restore the golden days of Paradise,
should be subjected to be told that it had all melted
into air, and left, instead of the possession of the
rad ity of these bright visions, to be plunged in al
t e anguish of disappointment. He could not cot.
sent to place Parliament in the ridiculous anemic,
of being tricked into the indulgence or the saco.
t. on of such expectation, and then to find the bubble
burst again, as in the ca-e of the Agricultural
Committee—( Hear, hear).—The Honourable Mem.
ber (Mr. Maxwell) had indulged himself in drawn/
exaggerated pictures of distress. Parliament was
not a proper place for the discussion of such ques.
dons as this. All such subjects were sure to men
with a due proportion of attention and inquii s is iha
country, without being brought to Pasha,' eat. lk
would net go into an examination of all the disco.
veries in political economy propounded by the Ham,
Member who opened the debate. He would rat
stop to inquire into the foundation upon which the
Honourable Member's position rested, that at
chinery was an enemy to capitalists, and that the
Revenue sustained a diminution proportioned totbe
increase of machinere ; that the spade was betas
than the plough ; and that we should never be happy
till we were all digging the earth like labourers ins
potatoe field ! (A laugii).—They were to have cotta
mills; but then a Nlr. Owen must be in the ways
take care of their morals. Man, in short, was tote
made a complete machine, to the exclusica of aI
other machines—(h'ear, car).—Ele protested again[
the House of Commons being made the theatre d
discussions on abstruse questions of political econsmy
There was a spirit of intelligence now abroad tibia
would not fail to appropriate,, as far as it was poo
tically available, the discoveries and experience d
Mr. Owen. He understood there were instances al•
ready of the application of his Plan with success it
some parts of the country, where a combination d
Parishes had taken pl ice for the purpose of trying
the experiment. He did not think it could be brought
to bear in one Parish, but in many together it might
1 be useful. But because an Honourable and Learned
Member (Mr. Scarlett) had, with great honour to
himself, proposed a new system with regard to the'
poor, which did not meet with the approbation d
the Hononrable Member, the whole country was to
be thrown into parallelograms—(A laugh) _—lle
thought the Honourable Member, in offering te
bring this subject before Parliament in the manna
he did, was guilty of injustice towards the Plan it.
self, which should have been left te, find its level
out of doors—( Hear, hear ).—lf Parliament were
to take the matter up, the country would naturally
wait, before it took any steps for the exteusion d
Mr. Owen's Plan, for the opinion of Parliament with
respect to it ; and as it must be some time before its
opinions could be formed, all that period would be
lost. With respect to Mr. Owen's parallelograms,
he could not reconcile his mind to the idea that they
would succeed in this country. Were we so par-
celled out, we should cease to be the country we
are—(Hear, hear).—We should be a nation of an.
tomatons, only to be governed by a drill serjeant.
Such a system would not do for a country like
Great Britain—it might be applicable to poor-houses,
but not to a nation of freemen, or of moral and in.
tellectnal beings—(ilear, hear).—Even if be though
otherwise of the Plan, he should protest against fle
liamcnt being made a school in which to try all ale
:cruse questions relative to scciety. For these tee
sons he should vote against the motion.
Sir W. DE CR ESPIONY differed most cm"
pletcly with the Noble Lord who had just spoken
en thinking that the House of Commons was nal
proper place for the investigation of a Plan for saw
liorating the condition of the P 00.% He strong]]
supported the motion, and condemned the satirical
tone the Noble Lord had taken with respect to it.
Mr. III:ME found himself in the novel shallot
of agreeing in every sentiment that had been mod
by the Noble Lord (the Marquis of Loadonderrl)'
Ile agreed with him, that Mr. Owen's Plan put
practice, would be derogatory from the character:
Englishmen. He admitted the morality and rer
larity with which matters were curled en under ill
system; but those were the very things he complaiDel
of, thinking that every man, as an Englishman, s!)01
be left to himself. The Honourable Baronet lgr
De Crespigny) must be aware, that if a man were"
called upon, from the circumstances of his situates.r
to think, he never would think; and thus, if
Owen's System produced so much happiness with so
_
little care, the adoption of it would make us a r2.o_
of beings little removed from brutes, only foal
the four corners of a parallelogram, instead or
mazes of a forest. The Honourable Member, atiCt
Opawyeinusgeaxphrigesltic tdribauhteopoef
thpraatisethteo
ithioelimouort
..tabelsc °Ai;

bar would not press-his motion t and that if he did'
the House would reject it.
Mr. F. BUXTON entirely agreed in all that had
fallen from the Na')le Marquis opposite, at the same
time that he disagreed in every word that had been
uttere I by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Maxwell). lie timid
sot think with burn that the quadrangular system
would he attended with such benefits in this country.
But although he could not support the present mo-
tion from the principles laid down by his Honour-
able Friend, he should vote for it on ;pounds of local
detail. From his pursuits he had been led to know
the miser y and ruin attendant upon the system of in-
ternal regulation pursued in this country in the work-
houses. He should not vote for this motion in the
hopes of a new constitution of society being intro-
duced, but he hoped to derive from the labours of
the Commission some practical hints upon which to
"found a new system of regulation for the poor-houses
of England.. He understood, from those who had
visited New-Lanark, that nowhere were so great a
Dumber of children to be seen in the enjoyment of
perfect health and spirits. He hoped the great ques-
tion of workhouses would shortly come before Par-
liament, for the children reared in those receptacles
of misery were invariably squalid and sickly. When
that •cfnestion came before them, it would be seen that
they had Much to learn, and certainly then Mr. Owen
would have much to teach them.
Mr. SCARLETT did not think the House would
be acting in a dignified or useful manner without
having some specific object in appointing a Commis-
▪ With regard to the Honourable Member who
sp. ke second in the debate (Mr. Dawson), he begged
to observe, that he thought he had given to a certain
measure a character which it did not deserve. He
assure! him that he had only brought forward the
Poor Belief Bill from a conviction of the necessity of
some measure of the kind. if the Honourable Mem-
ber had a better to present, he would give his most
careful attention to it, and he would not by a side
wind asperse it betore it came to be fully diieussed.
Mr. H, 1.-IURNEN thought the success of the Plan
at New Lanark was ground enough, if not for gene-
ral imitation, at least for inquiry.
Mr. WILBERFORCE took the same view of the
questio., that his Honourable Friend near him did_
(Mr. B .xton). Could anybody doubt at all that if
Members of that Honourable House, for their un-
dersundings, principles, and accuracy, would go
down to inquire into the effects of the system of Mr.
Owen, as they were to be seen in the establishment
at Lanark? Could anybody doubt that implicit
credit would be given to any report which they
might make? Such an inquiry, he was confident,
would afford satisfaction, and the Plan might be
brought forward at any future period without dan-
ger rf its being misunderstood. lie was most anxious
to take such a course as should guard against mis-
construction, and prevent public disappointment.
Dr. LUSHINGTONI was surprised at the appro-
bation which the scheme kad met with in Scotland,
considering it to be the roust visionary Tian, and the
most impracticable system he,ha.: ever met with in
the course of his life. The praiseworthy exertions of
Mr. Owen hat; made it succeed, on a small scale,
With persons under his influence and controul ; but to
attempt it on a general scale would, in his opinion,
be interly useless. A Noble Earl, who had now de-
parted this life, had tried a plan somewhat similar,
and bad succeeded' in reducing the Poor-rates 75
per cent. but this was effected through the power
be possessed over the whole parish, which ensured
the co-operation of all the inhabitants with his Lord-
ship's own exertions. But he was satisfied that it
was only where such influence was possessed that the
project could succeed. That House had not now to
learn from Mr. Owen that it was desirable the poor
should suppoit, themselves by their own industry.
Ha was delighted with the Plan, which, according to
Mr. Owen, went to demonstrate the means by which
the pool might be not only enabled to suppert them-
selves, but reodeted willing to do so. These were
undoubtedly objects of great importance. But how
were they to be obtained? Why, arrangements were
to be made by which the people in these new com-
munities were to meet at certain periods—were to be
fed at certain hours like horses, and to be exercised
at stated times. -He perfectly agreed with the Noble
Marquis, that such a system was utterly unfit for the
people of this country. The present plan he thought
a fit celyanion for ape which an Honourable Friend
of his had aibmitic to the House last year aghinst
the use of machine; y, on the ground that it took from
the poor man his employment. Ilis Honourable
Friend had opposed machinery to such an extent,
that he (Dr. Lushington) had almost expected him to
propose that no washerwoman should be allowed the
use of a tub, but that all garments should be washed
in the rivers, in order that employment might be
found for a greater number of washerwomen! Now
it was obviously the interest of the country to get its
labour performed in the cheapest manner, and he
must thereto:roe on this point oppose the motion of
Mr. Owen. To improve the murals of the people'
was that which might be very desirable; but he was
not prepared to approve of Mr. Owen's mode of doing
so by the exclusion of all religion. He wished the
Plan to go on as it was going on now.
good one, the truth, through the medium of the Press,
would be ultimately known, and it would be adopted
at the time when it could be most conveniently in-
troduced into our system ; but it certainly was his
opinion that that time never would arrive. The
Member for Weymouth had thought that the Plan
might be advantageously introduced into workhouses.
He thought it impracticable to connect the project
for cultivating land with workhouses, and he was of
Opinion that the less they had to do with workhouses
the better. He opposed the motion, considering it
beneath the dignity of that House to call for a Com-
mission to be sent down to inquire into the merits of
tuch a project as that of Mr. Owen.
- Mr. CANNING wished to explain his reasons for
the vote which he was about to give. For Mr. Owen,
as an individual highly distinguished for benevolence
and virtuous industry, he had the greatest regard ;
but he was sorry that his judgment and serious con-
ideation of Mr. Owen's Plan would not permit him
to give them the sanction of his approbation. He
bad given Mr. Owen a promise to attend to the ar-
gumi ents on both sides, and the result had produced
an impression unfavourable to that Gentleman's Plan.
His first objection then to the Plan was, that it de-
al/eyed that individuality and amalgamation of cha-
racter in man, Which more peculiarly belon6ed to

the People of this country—(Henn).—A system of,
this sort might do very well for a confined society;
but it was fallacious to argue, from a particular in-
stance
of success, that its geperal application was
practicable. Mr. Owen's people were like one family,
coming together and acting together font au acknow-
lcdged principle. Individuals were never known to
come together but from an intelligible principle
from that principle which binds together tile mem-I
bers of one family, or, in a larger sense, the tenants'
of one Gentleman. There should be a head, and his
influence should be felt. But what influence—what
community of feeling—of fear, or of love, could bring
together and govern the nation at large?—(llear).
It might produce a forced state of society ; but this
close and unnatural connection, leaving aside the
consideration arising from the division of parishes,
would make the society a theatre for the worst pas-
sions. He was not a bigot, yet he could not approve
a scheme which acknowledged not the Government
of Religion. This was the first instance in history
of a society being instituted without a Religious Go-
vernment. He, therefore, thought Parliament ought
not to sanction a system of this sort. The Right
Hon. Gentleman concluded by giving his opinion
that no good could be done by a Commission ap-
pointed by the House or the Crown, when it was not
yet determined whether the recommendations which
the Commissioners would make ought to be car-
ried into effect or not. Ile should, therefore, vote
against the motion.
Mr. W. SMITH supported the motion. If the
Plan of Mr. Owen was such as had been described,
could it be believed that it would be supported, as it
had been in Scotland, by Justices of Peace, Princi-
pals of Universities, and Clergymen of the Esta-
blished Church of that country ? Could it be be-
lieved that if Mr. Owen's Plan would be thus sup-
ported, had it been, as some had described it to be,
opposed to all religion ?
Sir ISAAC COFFIN said that, twenty years ago,
a Scotchman was a rara avis in London, et nigroque
sintirima cygno ; but now they were to be found
teaching and preaching in every alley, hole, and
corner in the city—(A laugh).—Nothing was good
' which did not come from a Scotchman ! and he (Sir
Isaac Coffin) thought there was danger that the
Saxon blood would soon be lost in the Caledonian—
(A laugh).—He was not in love with this Plan because
it was Mr. Owen's ; nor did he admire Mr. Owen
because he was a Scotchman; and he would, there-
fore, give his vote against the motion.
Lord A. HAMILTON said that the statement
that Mr. Owen's system excladed all religion was
completely erroneous. The Noble Lord then leferred
to various testimonials from respectable persons near
Glasgow, in favour of Mr. Owen's Plan; and con-
cluded by declaring himself in favour of inquiry,
without involving himself in any of the Details.
Mr.MAXWELL replied. He maintained that the
Plan of Mr. Owen did not go to monopolise the
human mind in the manner supposed, nor did it go
to exclude religion from the community that might
be formed. Perceiving, however, the feelings of the
House to be against the motion, he would not press
it to a division.

Mr. BROUGHAM wished to protest against the
proposition respecting machinery. He considered
this to be a motion for an inquiry into a very long
and very laborious experiment, which Mr. Owen had
for some time been making. It was in this view that
it should have had his (Mr. Brougham's) vote, had
the question been pressed to a division. It had been
said that Mr. Owen's Plan was conducted without
1 religion. Never was there a more unfounded assertion.
Indeed, he had heard it urged, as one of the greatest
faults in the Plan, that it had too much religion.
The motion was negltived without a division.