Star.
London, England, 1819-12-01 00:00:00

pinion% I shall this hightlave the honour
n as his Proxy. .
ARNLEY, while he deprecated the con-
e Magistrates, on the 16th of August last,
could support the greater part of the mea-
osed by his Majesty's Ministers as neces-
safety of the State.
arquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, inti-
intention of supporting sotne.of the epee.
niucd to the House by Ministers, though
med the principal part.
&ships now divided as follows
bate:its. Non-Contents.
- 56 Present r 110
- 12 Proxies - 65-173
—47 Majority IH.
on was therefore negatived.
HOTISE OF COSIMONS.

WILMA)! LAMB took the oaths and his seat
r Herefordshire, in the place of Mt. BaAso, now

e.
HAMILTON moved for a Copy of the Reference
Judges, or any of them, rela -.re to the Report of,
;sinners upon the Law of Scotland, with the answers
all papers connected with the ribject.—Ordered.
7:111T WORTLEY repeated the explanation which
en the day before, and which it appears had again
ed in some Papers. He had not said that a Resole-
ised at some Meeting in the West Riding of York-
tins out Lord Fitzwilliarn's property for partition,
a Meeting that Nobleman's property had been so
t far partition. There was a great difference be-
nple allusion and a Resolution, for the first was the
Iy one individual, whilst the other would involve all
horn it had been adopted in its guilt. He was un-
,ccupy the time of the House with what regarded
ally ; but these were awful times, and it was fair that
!mold be put into the mouths of men by whom they
u spoken.
PALMER presented a Petition signed by a great
the Inhabitapts of the Borough of Reading, is Berl-
?Lining of the conduct of the Manchester Magis-
tpersing the Meeting of the 16th of August, ta Meet-
,hey considered to be perfectly legal, and which they
re had been conducted with exemplary order and
It also represented the Royal Thanks to have been
JUI due consideration, and charged the regular Tribu-
Manchester District with a disposition to stifle, in-
Lowing inquiry.
pestion that it be brought up,
rant ONSLOW expressed his conviction that the
the 16th of August, which the Petitioners had re-
Is legal, was most illegal and unconstitutional in its
be Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered
e table, and to be printed.
VARANDER gave notice that he should move, to-
he number of Seamen required for the Royal Navy.
QU I N presented a Petition from the Clergy and
I of the County of Limerick, praying for the establiah-
more efficient Police.—Laid on the table.
HUTCHINSON, seeing an Honourable Secretary
asury in his place, wished to know why no Return
nade to the Order of the Hasse of the 3d of July last
Papers respecting the Expenditure of the late Audi;
,kbon, &c.
JSHINGTON said, that they were nearly ready,
it regular mode would be, for the Honourable Mon-
ty/ his motion on the subject, as this was a different

DAVIES gave notice that he would to-mort
a Return of the Names of the Persons employed in 1
: Civil Departments in the Army and Navy; as also
irn of the Number of the Recruits raised for the Land
Great Britain and Ireland, at certain stated periods.
!:,N NET said he held in his hand a Petition signed by
',Lanford, of Middleton, in the County Palatine of lAm-
hich he had read, and was couched in very decorous
; and which, in his opinion, furnished a spat singular
of the talents, good sense, and information that existed
e class of persons to which thy Petitioner beleoged.our
...loner set forth that be was one of the persons who, on
of August, conducted a large body of individuals to
e.g at Manchester; that he was intimately acquainted
',IL: circumstances which related to the events that hap-
that day, and that he was very solicitous to be allowed
: at the Bar of the House of Conunons, its order to be
on the subject. As be (Mr. Bonnet) had had two
..:.rsations with the Petitioner, he had no hesitation in
1:ilt the information which it.was in his fewer to give.
was highly important. He should like nothing bet-
that the Petitioner should be examined at the Bar, in.
skew that many of the allegations which had been made
!h.; People were highly coloured, if not wholly without
ton. As the Petition would be read, he would not enter
furtl.er details, bat would merely add, that. from all
li,atd of the Petitioner, he seemed to be an honest,
and well-meaning man. His (the Peti )tioner's politioal
certainly did not meet with his (Mr. Bennet's) appre-
but he (Mr. Bennet) had yet to learn what there was
able or seditious in persons holding opinions which had
old time out of mind in this country ? which had been
von by the rich and the powerful, (among the rest by a
i Itichmond) and which had never beforehrought down
miputations upon the persons by whom they bad been
&led? Ile hoped the 'louse:would grant the prayer of
titioner, and hear what he had to say.--The Petition was
,:ought up, read, and ordered to be printed.
the motion of Mr. D. W. HARVEY, Chairman of the
ilitec held last Session on the Cameiford IMeetion, the '
wa., directed not to issue his Writ for the Election of
L...cs to serve for the said Borough, till the 6th day of
try next.
1). W. lIA [IVEY then gave notice, that on Wednesday
Lilt he should move that the House resolve itself into a
ontte: of the whole House, to take into consideration the
1i.,,,0rts of the Committee on the Camelford Election, and
an.n.e evidence.
11 tITCIII NTSO N moved for the production of the same
::s illative to the Audit and Commissariat Deparunents, as
Sc ordered last year.—Agreed to.
3 the motion of the Cmancettes of the Escalates's, the
ut of the Committee of Supply was brought up, and the
hearted to its Resolutions, that Supplies should be granted
L Majesty for the service of 1890.
he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pee notice,
t he should to-morrow move that the House resolve itself
Ciantnittee, to consider of the Supplies.
)1 the motion of the Right Hon. (rent:lemon, an Address
scion ordered to be presented to the Prince Regent, request-
that he would order the usual Estimates for 1020 to be laid
the House.
REN FELL inquired, whether any part of eke Five
-eras ordered to be repaid to the Bank, under the determi-
'tea of the Committee of last year, had been so repaid ?
Ike CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER trusted the
Ut would do him the justice to recollect, that be bad stated
Year, that under the arrangements made for the Public
it could not be expected that so early a repayment of
°le Eve millions should take place as bad been anticipated,
:ot the bask should consent to give the same facilities to the
at in farmer years. The Bank had refused to grant those
uu", and the payments bad been retarded. He was glad,
to be able to inform the Houle, that a.cmidezable
2 had already bees repaid to the Bank, and that arrange-
. bad beta made for paying , the rest, with which tike
'''•?-4:1 of the Bank were satisfied. He should also add, that
no tasoo whatever for encroaching on the regulation,
"I'Y last year for the resumption of Cash Pay-
''l4^(Lisc", Scar, hear):

WSW MP',ASURES.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know which-of the
11 new Bills proposed by his Niajesty.6 Ministert
z`ald be read a second time on Thursday, and whe-
ler the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) would not consent
' :huge the Order of the 1)47 which stood for that
'l, and to remove it to a fnrtherr• period ? The
tiestiont whenever it came on, would involve the
ircassion of tht whole system of which the Bill
"ruled a part; it was decorous, therefore, to the
auntry, that more than three days' notice-should be
:wee of a.me3,urewhich tended-to prodoceby,far
4e rind permanent alteration in its Constitution that

had ever yet been effected by any Act of the Legis-
latur*—( Hear, hear).
Lord CASTLEREAGH. should not alter his in-
tention of reading the Bill, a second time on Thurs-
day, in consequence of what had &lien from the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman. The Bill was
pruned, and already in the hands of Honourable
Members, who had thus abundant time to consider
its provisions. On the question that the Speaker
should leave the Chair, the principle of the measure
might be discussed. e was the more eager to enter
into the discussion early, in order to strip the Bill of
all the elaborate misrepresentations with which the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman had so studi-
ously surrounded it, and that the Country might
know its real nature.

Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that if he had stu-
diously and elaborately surrounded the Bill with
misrepresentations, it became still more incumbent
on the Noble Lord to allow a greater time for its
consideration and the circulation of its printed copy,
which could not be surrounded with his " elaborate
misrepresentations.' At any rate, common decency
required the House to give some little time to its
Constituents, whose most valuable rights and sacred+
privileges (which he should hitherto have called
inalienable) it was about to break down, to under-
stand the measure, and express their sentiments on
the subject—(Hear, hear).
Lord FOLKESTONE, ccrnsidering how the House
were likely to be occupied this day and to-morrow,
and how intricate were the provisions of the Bills
proposed, defied any Gentleman to say that he could
know their nature sufficiently well to ge into the dis-
cussion fairly and effectually on Thursday next.—
Besides, the People knew nothing of the measure, and
would thus be deprived of the power of expressing
their opinion upon it. If the discussion took place
on Thursday, it would be impossible, not only for
the Country, but even for the House, to understand
the measure—(Hear, hear). He therefore hoped and
trusted, that the second reading would be postponed
to another day.
Mr. BENNET thought the subject of too much
importance to be payed over without the most seri-
ous investigation. In order to insure that necessary
object, he gave notice, that he should move tomor-
row, that a call of the House take place next Thurs-
day, if no other day was fixed for the second reading
--(Hear, hear, hear!) .
ST ATE. :Or TIM NATION.
Lord ALTHOIt assured the House, that he
never felt more oppreaeed than he did at that mo-
ment, by the magnitude of the subject which he had
undertaken to bring under their consideration. The
importance of it had struck him to be great when he
gave his notice ; but what had since passed—he al-
luded to the measures proposed last night by the
Noble Lord—so increased that impression, that he
was very sorry to be the person to address lie House
on the subject, and heartily wished that it had fallen
into the hands of some more able individual. Of this,
however, he was persuaded, that on die incscatt as
on all former occasions of a similar nature, he should
experience the kind indulgence of' the House, while
he stated to them his reasons for making the motion
with which it was his intention to conclude. It was
agreed, on all hands, that the state of the country
was most alarming. But surely before the House
proceeded to adopt measures to remedy the evil,
they should deliberately ascertain how far those re-
laxedies were applicable to the danger. It should
Arst lte made clearly manifest that the present laws
were insufficient, that measures of coercion and ri-
gour ought to be substituted ' • and, lastly, that the
precise. measures proposed by his Majesty's Minis-
ters were those the most exactly suitable to the case ?
—He did not pretend to be deeply versed in prece-
dents, but he believed there never was a question of
this nature submitted to Parliament without previous
and serious investigation. The House must ground
their adoption of the proposed measures either on
their confidence in Ministers, or on the evidence con-
tained in the Papers laid on the table. No one would
maintain that measures of such importance should be
rounded oa confidence in Ministers. He assumed,
therefore, that the House grounded their adoption of
the measures on the Papers which had been laid on
the table. Those papers referred to two periods—
the one before the 16th of August, the other subse-
quent to it. Although in those Papers it appeared
that in Mancheste' the Magistrates apprehended con-
siderable danger before the 16th of August, it was
observable, that Mr. Spooner did not think that any
rising would take place in Warwickshire, and that
Earl Fitzwilliam declared it so be the general opi-
nion at the York Assizes, that there was no disposition
in the West Riding to turbulence or commotion. It
was only in Lancashire, therefore, that, previous to
the 16th of August, any danger was apprehended ;
and even there an alteration had taken place for the
worse. Since the 16th, arms had been d
discovered.
Since the 16th, the symptoms of general iscontent
seemed to be much exasperated. These circum-
stances—the finding of arms in Lancashire, the in-
crease of Meetings in Yorkshire, the tumultuous as-
semblies in Scotland, and, lastly, the assertion, that
a simultaneous rising was projected for the Ist of
November—all appeared to him to prove that co-
ercive measures did not tend to allay discontent.—
Having stated this-generally, he would now call the
attention of the House, more particularly, to the evi-
dence before them, in order to thew that there were
several defects and chasms, which ought to be filled
up and explained, before the adoption of the mea-
sures recommended by his Majesty's Ministers ;
'measures, indeed, which, in his opinion, no state of
things could justify. The first defect in that evi-
dence appeared to him to be, that it contained no
intelligence freern Scotland previous to the 16th.—
Without a imovrledge of the ori‘n and causes of the
discontent, it would be in vain to think of applying a
remedy. Even from Lancashire further information
of that nature was desirable. If complete informa-
tion were afforded, Parliament, might proceed to ap-
ply, not a palliative, not a temporary remedy, but a
remedy that should go to the root of the evil. With
regard to the proceedings at the Meeting at Man-
chester, the only knowledge the House had was con-
tained in the letter of Mr. Hay—.for the statemente
s
in the speeches of Honourable Membep could not b
receieta as evidence. In that letter there were many,
things requiring explanation. Mr. Hat' said in his
letter that after the arrest of Hunt, Moorhonse,
the nick Act was rend, and the Meeting was dia-

- .
Petsod: The Noble Laid said that one of the Magis:
hates, in reading the Riot Act, was trampled upon.
It was utterly impossible that the House should
know how the fact 'stood without further information. ,
A great many persons, himself among the rest, had
conceived, that if Sir John Byng had been at Man-
chester on the Hith of Auit:LL, the mischief which
had occurred might have prevented. It had
been said that Sir John Byng, having the command
of the district, ought to have been at the post of
danger. He (Lord Althorp) happened to know,
however, that Sir John Byng was at Manchester on
the 14th of August, and offered to stay there, but was
told by the Magistrates that they apprehended no
danger. Although he was within reach of an express.
he was not sent for ; so that if any blame attached on
the occasion, it was not to Sir John Byng, but to the
Magistrates. All this, however, ought to be made
to appear distinctly by evidence, as it could not be
received by the House from his (Lord Althorp's)
statement. Another observation which he wished to
mac, was, that a great deal of the evidence on the
Table was anonymous. It might be necessary, for
the safety of persons giving evidence in what were
called the disturbed districts, that their names should
be concealed. It appeared, from the evidence of
those persons, that they acted very much as spies ;
and after what had passed two years ago, he thought
the House ought not to adopt strong coercive mea-
sures, on evidence liable to such suspicion. Nor did
he think they ought to trust implicitly to the acute-
ness of the Magistrates, in discovering whether those
persons gave just evidence, or whether, as in the in-
stance to which he had just alluded, they did not ex-
cite their victims to the commission of crime, for the
purpose of occasioning greater alarm than circum-
stances warranted. These were the reasons the felt
that he had stated them imperfectly) which convinced
him, that on this subject, further inquiry was neces-
sary. He would now consider- the objections that
might be made to an inquiry. The one, the delay that
it would cause in the measures proposed ; the other,
the apprehension that the inquiry might injure the
Magistrates. If he chose to address the argumentunt
ad homiatm to the Noble Lord, he would say, that he
had no right to plead the inconvenience of the delay ;
because, knowing the circumstances in August, he
might have advised the calling together of Farlia-
ment at an earlier period. But that ought not to
weigh with the House, if they tliought diet it was
absolutely necessary .the measures proposed should
be hastened. He could not, however, see she incon-
venience of delay. With respect to the Bill against
drilling by night, as nothing but evil could result
:such a practice, no one could object to the Bill
nutting an end to it. With respect to the Bill rt.-
gardingTraverses, delay could be of no importance,
as the right of traversing could not be exercised in
die disturbed districts unta the next Assizes. With
respect to the other three Bills, that to warrant the
Search for Arms; that to prevent the Meetings of
the People; and that to increase the Restraints on
the Liberty of the Press, he would trouble the House
with a few remarks. As to the first, there was no•
thing in the Papers to shew that arms had been accu-
mulated to such an extent as to render delay clinger-
sus. .As to the second. it did not apPear that the
Magistrates hid hitherto experienced_ any sliiissuity
in dispersing the most numerous Meetings. As to
the third, there did not appear to him to be much
difference in the good to be expected from passing'
it at present, or a short time hence. On every poli-
tical question there-must, however, be a balance of
evils ; and whatever might be the evil of delay, he
was sure that it would be exceeded by the evil of
precipitation. Unless the merits of the measures
"proposed were, deliberatively considered, before those
.measures were adopted, not only would the credit of
the proceedings of that House be justly impeached,
-but the measures themselves would fail in accom-
plishing the object in view. As to the danger to be
'apprehended to the Manchester Magistrates, as he
,did not conceive that it furnished any legitimate ob-
jection to the Amendment proposed to the Address,
•so neither did he think that it militated against the
inquiry which he now proposed. What was the nature
of the danger threatened by the proposed measures ?
That every thing dear to man, that every thing
sacred to him was to be exposed to infringement,
And was it to be placed against that danger, that in
the event of a Parliamentary inquiry; something
might come out that might eventually injure Mr.
Norris or Mr. Hay, in their defence against any pro--
secution that might be instituted against them ? If
these Gentlemen were innocent, nothing of that na-
ture could come out. It was only in the event of
their conviction by Parliament that any injury 'could
accrue to them. He had endeavoured to shew, that
there was an indispensable necessity, in the present
alarming state of the Country, and with reference to
the measures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, to
enter into a minute inquiry into the subject. He had
stated-the defects which existed in the evidence, and
he had endeavoured to counteract the impression that
delay would be injurious. He most deeply regretted
that all this had pot been done by some one more
competent than himself, to make a just impression on
the House. He considered it disgraceful and dis-
honourable to sacrifice the best feelings of English-
men, as well as some of the dearest and most inva-
luable principles of the Constitution, to a case of
temporary alarm—(Neer, hear). The Noble Lord
concluded by moving,
1. That a Select Committee be appointed to consider be Pa-
pers laid before Parliament by order of ids Royal Highness the
Prince Regent, and to report thereon to the. House."
Colonel DAVIES, in seconding the motion, ex-
d his regret at perceiving that his Majesty's
IT.misters anxiously seized upon the state of alarm
into which the Country hat! been temporarily thrown,
in order to invade the rights and liberties of the
People—(Hear, hear!)--He should deem himself
unworthy of the confidence of his constituents, or of
a seat in that House, if he did not stand forward and
express his disapprobation. He fully agreed with an
Honourable Friend of his, in expressing his surprise
at the awful denunciation of the Noble Lord (Cas-
tlereagh). He was astonished to find the House
called upon to adopt thy; severe measures proposed
by that liobk Lord, him no other information
than the garbled and imperfect statements contained
in the papers which had. been laid on the table.—
statmpente,were not sufficient to warrantibsi
Ig4m in *preens. the proposed measures.
heroin quoitsewaftbedcd ample evidence in
,ser
rot of in obeli-ratios made by an Honourible Bi-

ronet ore a former evening, that if the law had been
stretched beyond it; proper limits, it was the fault
of those whose duty it was to put it in execution.--7
Were the House to shut their eyes on what was pass-
ing around theta ?—Were they
_to view with uncon-
cern the demand made for a greater extension of
power than was ever before veste in any Ministers?
It appeated from the papers before the House, that -
there seas a design on the part of Ministers to intro-
duce despotism, and to trample on the liberties of the
People. If there were any doubts on that point, the
approval by the 'Noble Lord opposite of the princi-
ples laid down by the Right Honourable Meinber
for Dublin-01r. Plunkett) was sufficient to remove it.
That Right Honourable Gentleman had urged, that
if Magistrates entertained a fear that the public peice
was to be disturbed by the assemblage of large bodies
of people, they had a right to disperse them ; and if
blood were shed in consequence of such a proceed- .
ing, the. Magistrates would be justified. This opi-
nion was hailed with enthusiasm by the Legal Gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House, and re-echoed
with enthusiasin by the Noble. Lord himself. The
papers on the table were, in his opinion, an argu-
ment against, rather than in favour of the measures
of Ministers. It appeared that Government had been
aware of the existence of training being carried on to
a considerable extent—that they knew of large bodies
having been assembled for this plirpose in different
places—that it was difficult for persons to pass about
their ordinary business without being interrupted by
these men—and yet no measures were taken to pre..
vent such proceedings—(Hear, hear.')—The papers
were also evidence that arms were openly manufac-
tured and disposed of in different districts, and yet no
steps were taken by,the Magistrates, who were vested
with the power to prevent it. lle was aware that such
proceedings ought to be stopped ; he felr, too, that the
wild spirit which had gone abroad ought to be re-
pressed ; it tended to demoralize the People. If the
law was not strong enough to do this, he was satisfied
to arm it with additional power—with power sue -
cient to crush disaffection wherever it appeared.—
But let them examine the measures proposed as a re-
medy. He, for one, dissented from them, as he con-
sidered them calculated to subvert the Constitution
'but as if these measures were insufficient to suppress
disaffection, Ministers also called for an additional
armed •force! Let him, however, ask the House
what it was which caused this discontent and dis-af-
fection ? They could not conceal from themselves
that an excessive load of taxation was the cause.—
This it was which caused the distress and misery
which were to be found in all parts of the country.—
(Hear, hear, hear). And with this fact before their
eyes, were the measures of the Noble Lord the best
mode of redress? If the People complained of their
sufferings, were they to be answered by military exe-
cution ?—if they remonstrated, were they to be toh
that their only answer should be the bayonet ?
(Cries of Hear, hear). It appeared that Governinent
having once drawn the sword were determined to
throw away the scabbard. If the Manufacturing
Districts were in a state of rebellion, and were to be
ruled with a rod of iron, -how, he would" ask, was
such a system to be supported by military force?—
It was impossible to go on in such a manner without
subverting the Constitution-r-(Hear, hear). It was
taxation—taxation onequalled in the annals of him
tory, which reduced the country to this miserable Si'
tuation. They had at present a Revenue which wait;
decreasing at the rate of five millions a year; though
new taxes were added, still there was a decrease.
Was this a system which could support measures
coercion ? If Ministers were desirous of relievi.
the wants of the country, if they shewecithemselves
not inattentive to the feelings and distresses of the
people, they would, instead of adding new taxes,
practice economy and retrenchment in every branch
of the public expenditure ; but there never was a ~
of men less inclined to do this than the present Mi
nistry—(Hear, hear). He had, a short time since,
Occasion to look into the Department of the Military-
Establishment, and he was sickened at heart to. find
the degree of extravagance which was carried on in
all its branches. The expenses in that Department
were, now that we were in the fifth year of peace,
double what they were in Dips. The salaries in ay
different offices were double what they had been ,
that period—(Hear, hear, hear). This shewed that
there was something radically wrong in the present
system. He did not wish to resort to the cant term
of Reform, but it was evident some revision was
peratively necessary. He had beard the state of
country compared to that 9f France prior to the
volution. At that period France laboured under
Most arbitrary despotism, and the Revolution
hailed as the dawn of freedom. If the French
cerement had not been deaf to the warning voice ,
Public opinion—if they had attended to the interests
of the People, that dreadful scene of bloodshed which
ensued would not have taken place, and the unfortu-
nate Monarch of that country would not have terini-
nated his exigence as he did. Was this country,to
go on without being made wiser by experience, until
the dreadful leason was brought home to them? If
Ministers persevered in the measures which they have
acted upon, then it required no.great spirit of _
pheey to foretel that it must end in a revolution.—.
(Hear, hear, hear). The HonoUrable Member, after
some further observations, concluded 'by giving his
most cordial support to the motion of his Noble
Friend.—The Motion having been put from the Chi' ir.
Mr. BATHURST had hoped that, under the I,_
sent danger, Gentlemen would have taken a different
course to that adopted by the Honourable Gentleman
and Noble Lord opposite. The country was "-
looking to -Parliament for protection, and for
adoption of some measure to put a period to the p_
ceedings of those individuals calling themselves Ra-
dical-Reformers. He was well persuaded the Noble
Lord and his. Honourable Friend had no intention of
'approving the mischievous proceedings of these
son; ; hut they tacitly did so, by proposing now
:adopt a measure which must have the effect of i
peding the progress of the Measure now proposed
,the House for securing the safety of thePublec in_!
ttire from their irregularities; and this too, after
House had pledged itself to the Throne to adopt,'
Out delay, some measures to protect 'the loyal
'well-disposed part of the People, whose safety wai
put in jeopardy by the prevalence of these disorders,.
The Right Honourable Gentleman then adverted:o
the spirit which existed amongst a certain class of
legivickuals, wilostobjectcpuld pot —,.be mistaken...
The nanid-Of 'a man, who ought long since to '

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