Star.
London, England, 1820-06-14 00:00:00

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all necessary'. The general principle was, however, England. itieu to be remembered, and tolse Mien as'
good, that in proportion to the responsibility such against these large profits, that in 1806 and in 1808
ought to be the caution. the Bank bad advanced two kiwi td dittioverts-
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said a few wbrds meat. The Joan of 1806 was advanced it.an interest,
ow the difficulty of. proving the marriage of Scotchof 4 percent. the loin of 180§ wti to be repaid within
Peers, on account of the various modes of marriage l a cartes number of years,swithout bearing stye
which existed in Scotland. • terest at all ; and this. latter was so adiliced by.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he was aware Bank upon the specific ground that the Poblic would
into of that difficulty. He had heard Counsel argue to thereby come participation of the advantages
shew' there were several'hundredways of entering which the Bank had hitherto derived from holdmg
into the matrimonial state in Scotland, and he was these monies. This was a very material circum-
sometimes inclined to believe; from.the eloquence and stance ; but he ,considered that the most imPortant
cogency with which they enforced their arguments, feature it presented was this—that the Bank, by so
that the said Counsel had themselves three or four doing, recognised this right of participation, and thus
hundred wives !—(4 Iriao). the case stood from the year 1806 till 1817. He held
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered in his hand a paper, for which he had moved it the
to be committed on Friday next—Adjourned. conclusion of the last Session of Parliament, by which
' HOUSE OF COMMONS. it appeared that the deposits in question amounted at
'There being two ballots for Election Committee,, the gallery the period to which the Return was made up; to
Was not opened to strangers till put five. about eleven millions and a half. At the close of the
In consequence of a Message from the Lords, A =AND= last year, 1819, they had been reduced to no more
nOIZIIIIOII, Est was ordered to attend their Lordship.' Com-
mittee on the Foreign Trade Bill. than four millions and a. half, and it appeared that a
further reduction of them had been effected since
On bringing up the Report of the Committee on the Ayr end
Calder Navigation Canal Bill, January last ; so that they amounted at present to
DLL BERNAL opposed that clause which exempted the about E 3,700,000 only : a reduction, consequently,
Canal from the charge of Poeit-rates. bad been effected of between six and seven millions ;
The dame was supported by Admiral Soutzetox, Mr. S.
wolmo. and Sir J. Gn.knoin.—The discussion was proceed. and that was ro be attributed, first of all, perhaps,
in& whet: to the contraction of pecuniary transactions upon
Mr. Lils appeared at the Bar with,tbs reduced List of the the conclusion of an expensive war ; although this'
Committee chosewto examine the Petitions against the Penryn cause he was not inclined to consider so operative'
Election. The names were— as other Gentlemen appeared to have imagined.

et
P. Williams, Chas. C. Mi Cbeere, D. Sykes, •
Sir J. Boughey, lion. li. Neville, C. Mlison,
Sir N. Colthurst, Right lion. his J. N. W. 11. Colborne,
R. Lester Lester, Stewart, C. Harvey, ,
Gemge Mundy, IL Metcalf, W. R. Boughton.
The Members were then sworn, and retired.
The following Members were elected to verve on the Com-
mittee for trying the merits of the Ipswich glection
C. 11[1.1°rib-inks, M. Russell. R. H. Clive,
Sir W. Rowley, T. W. Beaumont, • Brogden.

—lt seemed to him that the great reduction of the
public monks -lodged in the Bank of England was
principally to.be ascribed to the attention which Go-
vernment had bestowed upon the subject during the
last four or five years. In proof of this, he need
only instance theintroduction of two Acts; by one
of which, Lottery Prize Tickets and Unclaimed Di-
?ides which r ly had accumulated in the

C. Duncumbe, T. Baring, Admiral Sotheroir,
J. Caster, W. S. Lucelies, Lied Althosp,
Lord Brudenell, J. G. Larnbton B. Wilbraham. .
The discussion on the Ayr and Calder Navigation Canal was
resumed, and the House divided—
For the Clause - - - 77
Against it - - - 60-11
Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from certoin Manu-
facturers in Staffordshire, complaining of distress, and praying
the House to take their caw into consideration.—Ordered to lie
on the table.
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON presented Petitions
from the Coachmasten og Edinburgh and the Corporation of
Perth, complaining of the present system of Burgh management.
—Referred to the Scotch Burgh Committee.
Mr. RICARDO moved fur a Return of the total number of
Gallons of Foreign Wines, together with the Excise paid there-
on, imported into the Pint of London, from the sth of July,
1786, to the Sth of July, 1819, distinguishing the French Wines
from the others; also fur a similar Return of the total Number
of Gallons of Spirituous Liquors imported in the same period,
together with Excise Duties paid thereon..—Ordered.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved, That
the Order of the Dry for the MO reading of the Mutiny Bill
be read.—lt was read and discharged, ind the third reading
fixed for to-morrow.
Lord NUGENT intimated his intention to move for a re-
duction of the number of meal at present specified in the Mu-1
tiny Bill.
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON, in consequence of
this Bill bens:, fixed fur to-morrow, would beg leave to pot cfi
his motion relative to the production of Papers regarding the
Coaunissioa of Inquiry into the Courts of.,,kstice in Scotland,
until us-morrow se 'might.
Upon the motion of Mr. N. CALVERT the Order of the
Dry for the Ballot on the Limerick Election .was postponed till
Tuesday, the 90th.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in a
Bill for raising the sum of £5,00:',030, by way of Annuity.—
Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-
morrow.
Mr. CALVERT brought up the Report on the Bakers' Re.
golarion Bill.—The Bill was directed to be, read a third time
to-morrow...
BALANCES OF PUBLIC ?'ONEY IN THE BANK.
Mr. GRENFELE, in rising to move for the pint-
ing of two papers, containing Bank of England ac-
counts of public balances, and of money payable for-
the management of the public debt (which pa:lc:•
were presented ye-terday), would detain the House
but a very few minutes. But as, in that very select
House which he had then the, honour of addressing.
there might possibly be some. Honourable Members
who had not sate in the last Parliatrent, he should
feel it his duty briefly to advert to some of\the rea-
sons upon which his motion was founded; and, al.
though he was well convinced that the sort of war-
fare which had existed between himself and the
Bank of England (in saying this he could assure the
House that there was upon his part no feeling of
hostility) was now pretty well over, yet the necessity
not seem to him at all lessened of impressing this
important subject upon the attention of Parliament.
He repeated his belief that that warfare had ceased
in consequence of the recognition by Parliament of
certain principles which he (Mr. Grenfell), in com-
mon with ether Members of that House, had always
strenuously maintained as proper to be observed in
the relations existing between' the Government and
the Bank of England. In what he had to say he
should carefully abstain, as he trusted he always had
done, from inquiring into any of the private trans-
actions of the Bank of England with which the
House had nothing to do, and from proposing any
thing which was inconsistent with those principles of
good faith and fairness which had always distin-
guished the transactions between the Government
and the Bank. It would be proved by documents,
which were already in the possession of the House,
and to which any Honourable Gentleman might re-
fer, that during a periird of not less than from ten to
twelve years the Corporation of the Bank of Eng-
lanl had been in the undisputed possession, as he
might say, of large sums of public money, deposited
with them as haulers, amounting to an average du-
ring that period of between ten and eleven millions
sterling. He had always taken the sum so deposited,
whenever he had occasion to revert to the subject, at
eleven millions. The average interest of that sum,
according to the current value of money in the same
space of time, had been ITOt less than 1:575;000 per
annum. Therefore, the sum trade by the Bank, as
by interest upon those balances, had been the same
as it would have been had the money been deposited,
with any private banker. He begged the House
would remember what had been the observation con-
tained in the Report of the Committee of Public Ex-
penditure in 1817. He need hardly remind them
that that Committee was distinguished by the names
of Mr. H. Thornton, Mr. Sharpe, and others, who
- -

could not-be regarded but as the highest authorities
on these questions. That Report estimated the loss,
ai
which the Public sustained, by reason of so large a
sum of money being locked up 10 the Bank of Eng-
land, as little short of 000,000. This certainly WAS
,an enormous amount: but, in justice to the Bank

T,r• 7",

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vi .ads, .rich formerly
hands of the Bank to an immense amount, could not
thereafter exceed in amount, if he remembered rightly,
about £lOO,OOO. There had been also a very wise
regulation adopted in regard to the Exchequer issues,
which had tended to reduce the amount of public
monies lodged in the Bank. At present the money
was issued only once or twice a week, as It might be
wanted. The next of these causes wasahe Act of the
last Session, by which the growing produce of the
Consolidated Fund was made applicable to the public
service. It had been stated by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, although he (Mr. Grenfell) did not see
how it appeared, that these balances were now, in
fact, reduced to only £2 600,000. It was, however,
very clear, that a hereas the Bank had been accus-
tomed to hold between £11,000,000 and £11,500,000
of these monies. they held last year little more than
£4,000,000. The practical object which he had in
view in moving for the printing of these pap'ers, was
to invite the attention of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to a very important consideration arising
out of them. He was very sorry that he did not see,
that Right Hon. Gentleman in his place, as he really,
did tvish to ask him whether, in the present state of,
Awls' finances—he (Mr. Grenfell) would not say the
alarming state, but he was sure that with the Chan-1
cellor of the Exchequer even he should be justified in
saying that it was a most anxious and difficult state of
finances—when they were so loudly called upon by
every part of the country to adopt decided and practi-
cal measures of economy and retrenchment; he would
ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether this deposit
account was not capable of still further reduction ?
—And for this purpose, it was necessary to consider
'A hat was the nature of the service performed by the
Bank of England in this case, and what was the com-
pensation proper to be paid for it? Now it must be
known to almost every Honourable Gentleman, that
,hat service was, in fact, nothing more than the
simplest of all possible banking transactions. It was
ery advantageous to the Public, no doubt, to have
such large sums in so safe a keeping ; but, with re-
spect to the premium for their management, it was
necessary to observe, that that management was as
simple as possible. It occasioned less trouble to the
Bank than was undertaken by any single London
banking-house in its dealings with a country banker.
In the year 1807, it was paid by a sum smaller than
that which he had noticed as arising in other years.
In 1807, it was about £400,000; in the present year,
rating the value of money at £4 per cent. which he
thought he might fairly do, they were now, in effect,
paying to the Bank, for the same management,
4.140,000 to £IFOOOO per annum. It was for the
House, then, to consider whether a further reduction
might not be made in this deposit account? If a fair
arrangement/could be made between the Govern-
ment and the Bank of England (such, for instance,
as that of 1808, when the Bank advanced monies
without' interest, by way of.admitting the_Public to
a participation of advantages), it was his opinion,
that this account might even now be made a source
of public saving, to the amount of not less than
£lOO,OOO a.year. He should therefore move, "That
the account of the aggregate amount of public ba-
lances, deposited for certain periods in.the Bank of
England, and which account was presented from the
Bank. yesterday (Monday). be printed."
Mr. PE ARSE said, that those deposits of balances
to the amount of eleven millions and a half which
had been allowed to remain in the Bank, after it had
advanced Government a loan without interest,•did
not continue, as might have,been inferred from the
Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Grenfell) speech, in
the hands of the Bank for ten years afterwards ; but
were gradually reduced, from time to time, to seven,
five, and six millions, and so on. The Hon. Gentleman
might have dwelt at greater length upon the advan-
tages which Government and the country had derived
from the conduct of the Bank, in a variety of in-
stances. By the issue which the Company made of
silver tokens, at a time when silver was very scarce,
and which was made fo'r the public accommodation,
the Bank lost upwards of £700,000. Then as to the
advances which the Bank. had made-to Government
at 3 per cent. why, the difference between that rate
of interest and 5 per cent. amounted to a loss 14
£60,000 a year to the Bank. (The Honourable Gene
tleman contended that the Bank had always acted a
generous and manly part, wherever its services had
been required ; and read
_an extract in - of his

. support
assertion from a letter addressed to the Directors by
the late Mr. Perceval, in which he observed, that
the liberal disposition which had been manifested
by the Court of Directors, in their handsome con-
currence with the arrangement he had suggest,- •
had occasioned him very great pleasure). 1'

: 11c.-

tnourable Gentleman went on to observe, that t!ie7
could never make a better bargain for the remitae-
ration of this management than that which alrerdy
existed; and to thew that for the replacing of stock,
which had, in softie inStaneesi been fraudulently c!,_
tamed by improper parties, and roe other very i ir.-
pbrtant services, the whole sum received by the lia• k
ibf England last year did not exceed £282,000. lie
' declared, that jeerer). instance where the Bank w is
said to have derived advantages in consequence of
'deposits of public money, he could show another to
prove the advantages which the Public had ittped
from the services and capital of the Bank.
Mr. G RENFELL, in explanation, maintained, Ilia%
within ;the last twenty-two years the whale profits of
the Bank Of England were to be ascribed to its cen-
lietion with the Government.. From 1794 to 179.3
or 1797, their dividends averaged about (it per mt.
But, during the last tenty,tVio years, a profit of
£30,000,000 sterling had been divided among ti
Proprietors and Company, He did not speai
unadvisedly, for he was himself a Rank Proprietor.
The Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had re-
marked, in the course of his speech, that the Bank
of England annually paid to the Government f. 90,044
for stamps : but all private Bankers were obliged :u
contributp proportionally, in the same way; te the
Revenue; and the Bank would have to pay arinswit
larger sum for stamps than this, if it were put oet ti e
same footing with the Country Banks:
Mr. PEARSE explained.
Mr. T. WILSON (Member' for -the City of Lon-
don) admitted, that the profits of the Rank in for-
mer years had been very latge t but contended, that
if the risks they run were considered, as ari: it fici:n
forged notes, bad bills, &c. it was proper
management, in the case in question, should be
1i t-
rally repaid.
Mr. RICARDO conceived, that if it were true, as
had been-Stated by Mr. Hearse, that the Bank had
made no larger profits in consequence of its col.-
flexion with Government, and its retaining these ba-
lances, than any private concern which might have
held them would have made, the Bark RlUst have
managed its own affairs very badly. The Honour-
able Director had mentioned, as one of the great
advantages which had accrued to the Public from
the acts -of the Bark, the lending of a sum of
money without interest, to the Government. But the
thing was differently represented, he (Mr. Ricardo)
could well remember, by the Court of Directors
at the time. The Bank was then in this situation:—
It had been allowed to increase the amount of its
capital, instead of dividing a larger amount of pro-
its among the proprietors; that is, instead of making
a larger dividend, it had been permitted to add to
its capital; and the understanding was, that the loan
of £3,000,000, upon which no interest was to become
due, was a boon to the Public in return for that
per-
mission. At some former period's, the remuneration
to the Bank must have been enormous, or it was now
!very considerably_ underpaid. But his own opinion
upon the charge of management was, that the ba-
lances in question were now so small, that it was
hard} necessary to have brought the subject before
the house, or to have founded upon these papas
such a motion as that contemplated by his Honout-
able Friend (Mr. Grenfell).
Mr. BROGDEN did not wish to interfere in this
discussion ; but, in the absence of his Right Hon.
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), of whose
thsence Honourable Gentlemen were all aware, and
which was known to have beta occasioned by un-
avoidable and, most imperative circumstances, he
could not but deprecate the discussion of so import-
ant a subject on the ptesent occasion.
Mr. GRENFELL observed, that if the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, who was aware of his (Mr. Gren-
fell's) intention to make this motion, had expressed
the slightest desire for its postponement, he should
have been very willing to accede to his wishes. In
the absence of any such intirhation, he was not con-
scious of the improptiety attributed to him by the
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Btigden). He remarked
that, in his opinion, for doing the business of the
Public, the Bank received from £300,000 to £3.50,000
too much ; and that, in the whole managelnent bf
these concerns, the Chancellor of the -Exchequer
might save £200,000. The Bank of Ireland were
paid nothing ; and in America the interest on the
National Debt was discharged without any emolu-
ment to the Bank.

Mr. PEA RSE said a few inaudible words; after
which it was ordered that the paper be printed.
Oa the motion of Mr. BROOD=, and after a remark from Mr.
&AWAIT on the areal publiceibpublicimportance of the measure, the
King's Beach Nisi Prins Bill was postponed until tomorrow.
The Report on the Insolvent Debtors' Bill was bronht up
and agreed to.
Mr. W. SMITH presented a Petition from certain Dissenters
against the Marriage Act.
Mr. BROODEN, for Mr. &tient Oros ow, gave notice d
two motions for the Sth of July; the ore to regulate the Accep
31142 S of Bills of Exchange, and the other connected with the
Practice of Attorniea.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and. du
House adjosmied at Half-past Seven.
..„

A Paper has been printed, by order of the House
of Commons, shewing-the state of the Public Debt 01
the Empire, funded and unfunded, as it stood at t',:e
StlfofJanuary, 1820. By this it appears, that fre
unredeemed debt of Great Britain and Ireland, rt
the sth of January, 1820, amounted to £856916,925.
of which the total annual charge - amounted to
£49,592,152- This enormous masi of debt has been
since increased by the late Loan: The red.:emed det4
standing in the name of the. Commissioners, for ire
reduction of the National Debt, amounts to the scan
of £420,828,751, of which the Public has to bear
the charge.
Thursday last, a numerous and respectable hoar
of the Catholics of Ireland held a meeting in Dublin.
at which the arl of FINGAL presided, and adopted
their Address to his MAJESTY.
Mr. Bacivouaar, Mr. DENMAN, and Mr.WiLiea Av.
held a long private conversation yesterday Moving,
during the sitting of the Courts in Westrninseer-Hali
supposed to be respecting the affairs of the4PEEI4
in one of the recesses near the window of the court
of Exchequer.
Yesterday, the Society for Me Suppression (gi 17:te
served Mrs. CARLILE, of Fleet-street, with notice to
attend at the Crown• Office, in order to nomina'e
forty-eight persons, as Special Jurors, in the cause of
the King against het, for • selling the 9th Number of
the Reysiblacan, and Paine's Lye, by Sfieru;in.