Star.
London, England, 1818-03-04 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATZS.

Mr. ARBUTHNOT brought up the Report of the
Committee of Supply.
Mr. LYTTLETON did'not mean at present to ob-
ject to the Resolutions contained in the Report, but
he wished to call the attention of the House to one
or two points, which he thought of importance. The
practice of exacting from every Officer an affidavit
before he received his half-pay, that he held no office
of emolument under Government, he thought ought
to be dispensed with, unless cogent reasons could he
shewn for retaining it. He also objected to the re-
gulation under which no widow, possessing from
other sources an income double in amount to the pen-
sion to which the services of her husband might give
her claim. It was hard that the widow of an Officer
who had insured his life for an annuity of 1001. and
paid for it sums which he could ill spare, should, on
account of her claim to this, forfeit the 501. per an-
num to which she would, under other circumstances,
have been entitled. lie wished as much as any man
for retrenchment, but this was Ant,the economy which
the House and the country looked for at the hands
of Ministers.

Lord PALMERSTON said with respect to the af-
fidavit, it was required by the Appropriation Act, so
this was not the occasion for discussing its merits.—
He, however, argued that it was justified by the rea-
sons of the case and the statements of the Honourable
Gentleman were not borne out by analogy. The ar-
rangements complained of which regarded the Wi-
dow's Pensions had the recommendation of the Com-
mittee of Finance in the last Session of Parliament.
Sir C. MONK, as the Treaty oflBls provided that
the lonian Isles should share the expense of the gar.
risons and troops necessary to secure that military
possession which was necessary, with the protecting
country, wished to know what proportion of the ex-
pense they had borne?
Mr. GOULBURN stated a Constitutional Body to
have been formed in the lonian States, to raise the
sums necessary for the maintenance of the garrison
of 3000 men to be kept up there.
Mr. LYTTLETON wished to know what part of
the Report of the Committee which had been men-
tioned, recommended the arrangements with respect
to the Widows Pensions, of which he (Mr. Lyttleton)
had complained?
Sir WILLIAM BURROWES commented on the
Report generally, and compared the present estimates
of the present, the third year of peace, with those of
1792 and 1793, the last year of peace before the
French Revolution and the first year of war. The
whole of the force maintained for Great Britain and
Ireland and the Isles of Jersey and Guernsey in 1792
amounted to 27,701 men, including officers. Now,
when there was less danger to be apprehended, there
was an excess for the home service of 29,526 men.—
The whole regular force voted by Parliament for
1793, when the war had broke out, was 70,521 men.
Over this there was, on the total amount of the force
now kept up at the commencement of the third year
of peace, an excess of 11,121 men. He then repeated
the statements which he had advanced in the Com-
mittee of Supply on the preceding night, and con-
tended, the force kept up, and the expense thereby
incurred, were not called for by the circumstances
of the country. A greater instance of profusion and
extravagance could not be imagined than was afford-
ed by the course thus pursued in the present state of
our finances, when it had been seen that in the last
year the net revenue was but about 51,000,000/.
while the expenditure of the nation amounted to
65,000,0001. thus leaving a deficit of I 1,0)00,0001.—
He concluded by moving as an amendment, that the
total fottt be 103,000, instead of 113,000.

Mr. CURWEN thought the House mast be con•
vinced by the eloquent speech of his Honourable and
Learned Friend who spoke list. He insisted upon
the nocessity of every possible retrenchment, and said
the amendment had his cordial support.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that without meaning
any disrespect to the Honourable Baronet (Sir V.
.
Burrowes), he did not think it necessary to waste the
time of the House in giving any answer to the thread-
bare arguments which it. contained. There was no
parallel between the various periods mentioned by
`the.Honourable Baronet and the present time, when
the circumstances of the country were so much
changed, and the increase in the population had in-
creased the number of turbulent spirits in the coun-
try—(hear, hear, from the Opposition
Mr. CALCRAFF said, that the Noble Lord who
' had spoken last, treated the arguments adduced
against the amount of the proposed Peace Establish-
ment as if they had-been torn to shreds ; whereas, in
truth, they reinained totally unanswered. The Noble
Lord said—" You propose an Establishment on the
scale of that in 1792; I, on the contrary, propose a
new scale for the Peace Establishment cf 1818 ; there-
fore, I am riht and you are wronr—Su:h was the
logic of the Noble Member for Cambridge. (Laughter.)
—He thought that, when it was considered how flat-
tering an account of the tranquil state of Ireland had
been last night given by the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Peel), it would be allowed that a con-
siderable reduction might be made in the amount of
force for Ireland.

Mr. PEEL' accused the Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Cgcraft) of misrepresenting what he had last
night said respecting the state of Ireland. For al-
though he had stated it was a source of satisfaction
to the House that the internal state of Ireland was
much improved, yet he had stated it as his decided
opinion, that no force of a less amount than that
proposed was compatible with the safety of Ireland.
This was his opinion. The opinion of others might
be-different; but certainly he was more confirmed in
his opinion, when he considered that the only two
Members who differed firm it were the Honourable
Gentleman who spoke last, and the Honourable lea-
rosin (Sir William Burrowes)—two Hon. Membe%s
than whom there were none who could be more per-
fectly ignorant as to the state of Ireland, and conse-
quently whose opinion respecting the amount of force
which the present situation of that coun:ry required
was likely to be of so little weight—!hear, hear,.) It
would be agreed on all hands, that nothing could be
more injurious nor unsafe than a sudden reduction
in the military force of Ireland; and he was sure that
the House would be of his opinion that no farther re-
duction in the military force in Ireland, beyond that
made in the present estimate, was consistent with the
internal security of that country.
fir JOHN NEWPORT felt bound to express his
sense of the obligations which were due to the Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel). for the course of
policy which he had pursued with respect to Ireland,
in substituting the civil for the military authority in
the preservation of the peace of that country(Leto,
hear).—The reduction of the military force in that
country should be gradual and progressive, for it
could not he doubted that any sudden abandonment
of the policy hitherto acted upon would be produc-
tive of very bad conseluencee.. lie. thought that
with respect to the Womee, they should be made to
contribute at least in .some degree to the support of
the force maintained for their protection.
Mr. 31ARRYATT said that the circumstances of
the Colonies were such, that few or none of them
were capable of maintaining the military force neces-
sary for their protection.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that the burden of the
proof why the military establishment of the present
year should be one battalion greater than that of
1792, lay not upon those who thought wish .him that
there should be no increase, but upon, those who pro-
posed the increase. But the Noble Lord who called
for the proposed establishment, talked of the increase
of the populaticfn producing' an increase of turbu-
lence, and therefore requiring an increase of military
force. With respect to the population, it had increased
perhaps, about 60%000, or allow it.to be even a mil-
lion ; but was there with this increase i* the popula-
tion such an increase of turbulence as to require a mi-
litary force greater in the proportion of two to one
than that which was thought necessary in the year
1792—that year of turbulence and.danger, (hear),
when Parliament was suddenly assembled, the Mili-
tia called out—a Proclamation issued against sedi-
tious publications, and the dreadful alarm on account
of the French Revolution P With respect to the state
of Ireland, he alluded to the claims of the Roman
Catholics, and the state of disqualification in which
they were kept, as being the cause why that country
now required a large military force. He hoped,
however, that the policy which rendered the main-
tenance of this force necessary, would be abandoned.
On the whole question, he expressed much regret
that so little attention was given. to the Army Esti-
mates. He gave the Amendment his most cordial
support.
Lord CASTLEREAGH could not allow the ques-
tion to go to a division without saying a few words.
It was not from not feeling the great importance of
the question that he had not sooner offered himself to
the attention of the House, but because he had heard
nothing urged in the course of the debate which was
an argument against the proposed eitablishment;
and he referred to the thinness of the House on the
present occasion as evincing a feeling that after the
previous discussions, the opinions of most Mem-
bers seemed to be quite settled as to the nece.. ity
of the amount of force proposed. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. flroughant) wLhcd to
take the year 179'2 as fixing the standard, accordiag
to which the estimates of the pzesent year thorid be
regulated.—Now, with respect to the establishment
of 179'2, he begged the House to recollect that Mr.
Pitt, in that year, when he proposed the estimates,
stated, that he had framed them on the prospect
of a long period of profound peace. In this, how-
ever, it unhappily proved that Mr. Pitt was mistaken,
for the war broke out the very next year ; and the
consequence of the lowness of the establishment
in the year 179'2, was, that this country suffered
very much from an extreme degree of milita:y
feebleness, during the first years of the wvr. The Hc-
nourable Baronet (Sir W. Burrowes) thought that
we could do at present with a force often thousand
men less than that in the estimates lout then he for-
got to state the particular quarto- in emits tl.e re-