Star.
London, England, 1827-05-29 00:00:00

7`e It(ief of 1,9001. bad been paid ts.
Preeifield ; and although the nom Member
itenßd that Mt. FritahOeld 'pas employed
it was impossible foe the House to abet it
eaten of the fransaetion. According to the
bee's own statement, he had slipped into
union of a Cornish Borough in the most
way that was ever before heard of.-' Without
a soul, and without paying a singlegoines, he
down to Penryn and obtained his return—(A laugh ,
cheers). He must declare his belief that the Hon.
Member had obtained his place in that House by bri-
bery and corruption on the part of his agents. He im-
puted nothing to the Hen. Member personally; but if
he were on hrs oath 'he could give no other verdict, and
if the House desired to MoGetve the purity of election,
this was a case in which it Vas imperatively called upon
to take away the frascMss of sending Members to
Parliament.
Mr. DENISON said that he set on the Committee of
1819; and if there ever was a case of gross corruption
proved, it was then. The Right Hon. Gentleman at
the head of the Administration had said some years
ago, that if a case for reform were shewn him, he
would go along with the reformers,. he now called upon
the Right Hun. Gentleman to redeem his pledge. if
ever there was a case for reform by disfranchisement,
it was the case of this borough of Perim ; and if the
House did not now act upon it,there never could be a
case in which they could afterwards interfere. He
should vote for transferring the elective franchise to
Manchester.
Mr. O'NEILL rose to protest against the principle of
visiting uphn the present electors the sins committed by
those of 1807 or 1819. He thought it equally cyposed
to the principles of law and of justice.
Sir. C. BURRELL supported the Bill. When it had
passed that House, the electors would be able to be
heard in another place, where the evidence could be
taken on etch.
Mr. D. BARCLAY said this was the first time it had
ever been proposed to that House to deprive electors
of their privileges because their ancestors had been
guilty of crimes. He did not mean to defend the con-
duct of the Borough in Hon. Extensive corruption
WAS then proved, and it ought then to have 'been•clis-
franchised. But there was no evidence of it now, and
they were called Upon to condemn upon hearsay evi•
deuce alone. At Shoreham and Grampound almost
every elector had been convicted of bribery, but the
case of Penryn bore no resemblance to this. Wily did
they not go to Appleby—(hear, hear !)—if they were
determined not to tolerate any degree of corruption ?
'At Appleby pig-sties voted, and for many other Oa
roughs the seats were openly and notoriously sold.
Lord MILTON contended that the House had a right
to look to the past history of the borough, and were not
,bound to confine themselves to the evidence now ad-
duced. Its character for corruption was established,
and this ought materially to influence their decision.
The agreement with Sir C. Hawkins proved the fact
of habitual bargain and sale with all their formalities.
He thought this an instance in which the destination of
the franchise was justifiable, and he deemed it a fit oppor-
tunity therefore, not merely to extend the franchise to
the adjacent hundreds, but to transfer the right to some
populous place, and thus give a broader basis to the
national representation. Cornwall was perhaps not over-
represented, for Penryn belonged to Jamaica full as
much as to Cornwall, and the same thing might be said
of many other of the Cornish boroughs. Ile rec im-
mended the House upon' this occasion to adhere to
ancient principle, and not to be led away by new and
theoretical devices.
Mr. VAN HOMREIG Fl considered the evidence
before the Committee to have proved that attempts had
been made to bribe the borough of Penryn, and so have
proved equally well that those attempts had failed.—
He therefore did not see any reason for disfranchising

landed interest was ;heir prosperity, and that its po-
verty was theirs also.
Mr. PORTMAN denied he had aspersed his
constituents. kithe ' cribed to do by his
Hen: Friend; the Mernbc\r-for Co e Castle. If he did
e not agreeksvith them in the view they took of tins sub-
Iti,leeatkrd laid their opinions before the lilkse, and
a done nothing which deserved the loss o their good
opinion. If he had given his confidence to,ffie present
Administration, be knew that there were any of the
alines affixed to the Petition who would be disposed to
do the same; notwithstanding the declaration which had
been made at the Meeting. He had come into that
House an independent man, determined to receive no
favour from the GovernMent, so as to be able to give
MX vote unswayed by any ties of that nature. He had
-acted with independence; and in so acting, as he bad
isperead nobody, he expected that no one would cast
aspersions* upon him--(Hear, hear). With . regard to
the prayer of the Petition, after -*hat he had heard
from the Right Hon. Geo&emati; -aid considering his
great experience ins] information upon the subject, he
was botmd to say that fie could never hope to come out
of a Committee with the prayer of the Petitioners
granted. Although he had declared himself disposed
to support the present Administrition, he wished it to
be understood as only intending to give them that inde-
pendent support which should result from an approval
of th.ic measures.
Mr. G. BANKES explained.
• 'Lord MILTON said, he could not help thinking that
the ipeech of the H mi. Member for Corfe Castle, al.
'dlotigh intended for that night, must have been in-
tended fa• another place—(A laugh—Mr. Bankes was
leaving the House). He thought the statement of the
Bight Hon. Gentleman so satisfactory that it must
bring conviction to every impartial mind. He had that
day received a letter from Northamptonshire, informing
!Mtn that the price of wool was improving, and a de-
anancespringing up.
Mr. WESTERN said, that the superiority of the Bri-
tish woollen manufactures was mainly owing to the
superior quality of the British long wool. The intro-
duction of foreign wool must tend to diminish and de.
• teriorate the production of that article, and consequently
to rob tis of that superiority which we had always pos.
•' iessed. It was well known that in France they were
doing everything to encourage and improve the growth
of wool; and he would ask, whether it was wise under•
such circumstances to carry a general principle so far
as to overlook all these peculiar conditions upon which
our manufacturing superiority depended? He thought
the Government and the House had not done their duty.
by neglecting to institute an inquiry into the causes of
the great depression under which all the interests of the
country had been labouring.
Mr. BARING said, that the facts stated by his Right
Hon. Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, were
so clear as to put the question entirely at rest. Ile
thought. that going into a Committee after such a state.
meet, would have been the most perfect waste of time.
some Hon. Gentlemen Teemed to think the introduction
of foreign wool a new tangled practice of political eco-
nomy. It was *no such thing ; it had been the old
practice of this country to import raw material, and by
no means a new principle introduced by the Board
of Trade.
Mr. WESTERN explained.
Mr. DAVENPORT said, that he agreed with much
that had fallen from the Right Honourable Gentleman;
but he had neglected to state what that general agent
was by which so many interests had been depressed.
That neglect be would supply, by tooting that the cause
of all the distress of the country.was the tampering with
she country. As he had'given notice of a motion upon
this subject, he felt it due. to the House to male some
explanation in respect to that notice. He had been in
duced to put off his motion before Easter, because he
was told that every body had agreed that nothing
'should be attended to until .the Administration was
the borough.
formed. Since that he beal:fieed a day upon Which he
Lord ALTHORP said, that the Hon. Gentleman
gave way for the convenience of the Government, and who spoke last appeared to him to be inconsistent; for
at the express solicitation of the Members of the New the Committee, of which he had been a member, had
Administration. AU he stipulated for was another day, unanimously voted that corruption was generally preva-
and they gave him last Thursday. Then, indeed, I,e lent in the borough. Looking to past instances of
had a day, but no House. bribery, and to the late election, us which the poll had
ILIICTION SILL been languid up to a certain time, and then all at once
Mr. D. BARCLAY rose to present a Petition from an' Elector
had be come active, just utter Mr. Stanbury
had paid
of the Borough of Penryn, stating that be was informed of the in-
tention of a eniber of the House to move that he should be pro- the bills of which he spoke in his evidence, h thought
It!
M
scented for Bribery. this the strongest case %shish had ever be:n brought
The SPEAKER interposed, to say that the Petitioner could not before the House.
hive been so informed by the Votes of the House, and there was
no other source from which he could have obtained the informs. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that the safest way to eici-
ceed would be to let the Bill be referred to the Cum
sion.—After a brief conversation,
Mr. BROUGHAM suggested that the Petitioner should with- mittee, in which he would move, as part of the first
draw the Petition, and leave oat the paragraphs alluding to any clause, that Penryn should be disfranchised ; after which
proceedings of the Home other than its votes. he would bring in a Bill to bestow the privilege on
Mr. L. KECK moved the Order of the Day for the Douse going
into a C 4 The Hnnmittee upon the Penryn Election Bill. some populous mercantile town.
use then resolved itself into a Committee.—On the nest
Mr. MANNING rose to oppose the Speaker leaving clause of the Bill being read,
the Chair. He denied a part of the evidence which.had Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved as an amendment,
been given at the former sitting of the Committee by. that the Borough of Penryn should henceforth be die
Stanbury and other witnesses. He denied that Mr. qualified from returning Members to Parliament.—
South was employed by him as an agent, or that Mr. Throwing the franchise into the hands of the adj ,ining
Freshfield attended him at Penryn as Solicitor, or in hundreds would be in effect to subject it to the influence
any ocher character than as his private friend. He of a few great landed proprietors. This would be to
thought the House would be extremely misled if they aggravate the evil. Insteal of this they ought to look
proceeded to take any harsh step with regard' to the out for some place now unrepresented where trade and
*rough upon such evidence. He certainly thought commerce had greatly increased. He would deal with
that when his Honourable Friend stopped the proceed- the case therefore in this way. As soon as the disfran-
•lngs of the last Committee, he had determined to giie chisement was complete by an Act of the whole Legit-
sac the prweedings, having no case. latine,he intended to come down to the House and pr o.
Mr. L. KECW said, that his reason for stopping the Plse that the right of returning two Members to Partite
perice•dings before the last Committee, without MO ment'should be given to Manchester. By this c .urse
mining some witnesses thee in attendance was, that he they would avoid the imputation of taking the franchise
Lad received information of their having been in corn- tram one place Mei elyfor the sake of giving it to another.
munication with Stanbury in Newgate ; and having 1,„„1 mturox seconded the Amendment.
pledged themselves to him to state certain facts of what Mr. LEG H KECK said, that he had followel almost
they bad a perfect knowledge. If this was nut a case literally the Bill which had passed the House in 1819,
which called lor the interference of the House, in order but was thrown out by the Peers. The present Bill
to prevent a repetition of the disgraceful practice of would enlarge the number of votes from 400 or 500 to
corruption, then 1* despaired of ever finding one at all. 1,700 or 2 000. He could not think Manchester and
Mr. FERGUSSON said, that having the reports of the other manufacturing places were badly tepee ented
three former Committees, in conjunction with the evi. while they had such advocates in that House on every
dente now in the hands of the House, he agreed with occasicos as the Noble Lord. If the precedent plop° ed
-she Hon. M mber for L icestetshire—that if this was were established, let the House be aware of the extent
pot ye, they might despair of ever finding a case in of it. Ii it were desirable to maintain tee balance of
which Parliament ought to go to the last ex•remity in representation between the landed and manufacturing
dealing with the abuse of the elective franchise. From interests, he feared the plan suggested would overturn
the Report of the Committee of 1807, it appeared that it. Tee precedent was dangerous to the Constitution,
a written agreement was actually made for the corrupt and useless to those whom it proposed to benefit. The
sale of the Borough, and in 1819 the same bribery was Honourable Member concluded by declaring that he
used, only upon a reduced scale for each vote. The had endeavouted to discharge a very disagreeable and
elective franchise was a public right and not a ptivate invidious duty to the best of his ability—(Hear, hear)—
oqp. It was placed in the hands of certain bodies of and all he hoped in return was, that no friend of his
mien for a public purpose ; and when they found any of might ever be placed in a similar situation.
those bodies sacrificing their trust for corrupt purposes r. C. BARCLAY recommended the Honourable
of private advantage, that House was called upon to Member not to press the question to a division, as it
interfere, and resume those privileges on behalf of the was evidently the opinion of the Committee that the
people which had been so abused. It was proved that Borough should be disfranchised—(Hear, bear.) His

population a place
it to the privilege of sending Members to Parliament ;
but he deprecated the Aristocratical principle of the
lion. Gentlemen, i
which, however, they had on a for.
mer occasion been foiced to adopt by the other House
of Parliament. Let them .have no ingenious devices to
exclude from influence in that House the most unpro-
tected class of society. But let them give the frAn
chise to such numbers, that although their collective in-
fluence might be great, their individual votes should not
be worth the purchase. This was the only way to place
them out of the reach of corruption.
Mr. PHILLIPS believed that the people of Man-
chester were desirous of the privilege.of representation,
but desirous at the same time that the elective franchise
should only be given to persons rated at 151. or 201. a
year. This regulation would give a number of voters
amounting to from five to seven thousand.
• Lord ALTHO RP recalled .the House in the true
state of the question, which was, whether Penryn should
be disfranchised, not whether the tight-of sending
Members should be transferred to Manchester or
elsewhere ?

Mr. Waasurrow and Mr. Alderman WAIT/MAN severally sup-
ported the amendment.
Mr. CANNING thought it a better, safer, and juster
course to extend the franchise to the adjacent hundreds.
Different degrees of offence required different degrees
of punishment. Enough had• been proved to make it
imperative upon them not to leave the franchise in its
fitrmer state; but there had been no proof of suck a
proportion of corrupt voters as to justify total dis-
franchisement. Upon a case like the present, the mind
of one man would f rm a different opinion from that of
another; it was a case entirely for individual judgment.
The House was engaged in a judicial proceeding, and
every man's vote ought to be given'as it he were giving
verdict. The unanimous vote of the Committee
formed a strong prima facie case, which it did not re-
quire strong evidence to e.tablish, but which it should
have required strong evidence to overturn. lie should
be compelled to give a verdict of guilty, but not to the
extent of taking the franchise entirely away from those
who had exercised it innocently, on account of those
who were guilty. He must therefore support the Bill
of the Honourable Gentleman; but in saying this, be
was very far from denying the power to create a new
repre.entation in such a case, fur instance, as that of
Grampound ; and he agreed with the Noble Lord,
that if a new representation were created, the ancient
landmarks ought to be attended to. If they weie, to
assenkto the amendment of the Noble Lord, they would'
get into a very inconvenient position. 'They could nor
hope to conclude the business this Session. They
ought, if possible, to proceed simultaneously, in creating
she vacuity in the representation, and in tilling it up.
Mr. 1-10BHOUSE took an entirely different vier of
the subject from that of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
would rasher reject the Bill altogether than agree to it
in its present state.
Lord MILTON and Mr. llositsuu mutually explained.
Mr Wyss supported the original clause.
Lord Sauriou, Mr. Woo°, and Mr. hLaasnact., severally spoke
in favour of the amendment.

Mr. W. LAMI opposed it.
Lord RA DiCIAFFE assured the -Right Hon. Gentle-
man that he was desirous of obtaining his grod oeinion.
He admired the liberal principles of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, who had said on a former eccataon that he
should be a friend to Parliamentary Reform when any
practical good could be ribtained. This was a case in
which practical good might be obtained, and his hope
was that the Right Hon. Gentleman would vote fur the
amendment. _ _

Sir J.NEWPORT thought there never was a stronger
case of corruptiqn than that before the House. He
should vote for the proposition of his Noble Friend.
Mr. BROUGHAM was desirou. of calling theatten
tion of the Committee to the main question before them,
and also point out what it was they ought to exclude
from discussion. They were compelled by facts to as-
sume the guilt of Penryn, and the only luestion was
whether they should disfranchise the Voters, and give
the Hundred the benefit, or disfranchise them generally ?
If they had done no wrong, why let in, in add.tion to
the 500 votes (who, by the way, had been increased to
that number from two hundred), the two thousand
from its neighbouring Hundreds ? The answer was,
they had proved themselves unworthy to enjoy that
privilege. if he voted for the Motion of the Mem-
ber for Leicester, he put an end to the question at once,
and by voting for his Noble Friend's motion, he only
prepared the canvas for a picture of Reform. The ne-'
cessary sketch might be made at leisure, and the whole
finished in a proper manner. He should vote for the
general disfranchisement.
Mr. S. BOURNE could not support the proposition
of the Noble Lord. His idea of justice would not per-
mit him to take the elective franchise from five or six
hundred persons, when it did not appear that bribery
had extended to more than one half of that number of
voters.—The Committee then divided :
For the Amendment
Fur the Motion

- 124
62

Majority against the Motion - —55
The Amendment WAS consequently cartted.—The Report of
Supply was brought up, and the Resolutions agreed to.
Mr.W. &MI l'H said he had abstained from opposing
many of the Estimates, in the hope that next Session of
Parliament a more rigid economy would be adopted.

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Sfanbory by Ur. object in•titki wee to give his issppisri.fsitissmnivid-
ember for Panrin anent et,thiAoble Lord—(Hept)--whose taistenys
Dyed as his agent, bad convinced hime kie hoped;: however,' th ' if:•th'e
set its eyes to she proposiiion of the Nob& Liird was adnOted, ht'wkeld
to the Hon. Mem. confßrylie elective fratrichive in-Manchester Lc/persons
into the rapresen- rated at 201. for the poor rates. He had seen sufficient
son extraordinary reason for this plan in Southwark, where the system'
Without knowing worked well and fairly.
mines, he had gone Lord MILTON thought they ought to look at the
rn—(A laugh and wealth and population of a place before they admitted