Star.
London, England, 1821-02-02 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE!

Sir J. NEWPORT rose and said, that it was now
his intention to bring under the consideration of the'
House a breach of one of its most important and
undoubted privileges. In giving, on a former day,
a notice on this subject, he had departed from the
common and ordinary custom of the House, where
its privileges were concerned, and he did so because,
in this instance, the attack on those privileges pro-
ceeded from a aody cf. men respectable in their sta-
tions—( Hear, hear)—and because it was published
to the country, marked by the approbation of the
Ministers of the Crown—(Herr, hear).-41e did so,
because the libel went to impede the exertion of free-
dom of speech, and reflected on Members of this
House, who had the right of debating every measure
of public interest, without being exposed to any com-
ments, save such as might be made within the walls
of this House—(Hear, hear).—He did so, because,
the paper to which he alluded was laid at the foot of
the Throne, and obtained the approbation of the
Throne; to a censure cast upon Members of this
House on account of the performance of their duties
—(Hear, hear).—The paper was a direct violation
of a declaration which was agreed to on the 23d of
May, 1810, and recorded upon the journals of this
House by men of the first eminence in the annals of
this country—(Hear, heat ).—That declaration stated,
- We hold it an ancient, genuine, and undisputed
right of Parliament to debate fully and freely all
matters of public interest, which right being once
foreclosed, the essence of -liberty and of Parliament
is dissolved and gone for ever"—{hear, hcar).—The
paper to which lie would call the attention of the
House had, besides this character of aggravation,
that it was promulgated to the country by the Mi-
nisters of the Crewe—(Hear, hear)—and was ar-
ranged under a general head, which was dictated by
the Noble Secretary of State for the Home Depart.
went—(Hear, hear).—The head was this, "The fol-
lowing Addresses having been transmitted to Vis-
count Sidmouth, one of his Majesty's Principal Se-,
cretaries of State, by the several persons whose
names are respectively subjoined to each Address,
were presented by his Lordship to his Majesty, who
was pleased to receive the same very graciously :"
that the Addreis in question was here stated to have
been received by his Majesty " very graciously."—
Ile was confident, that when the House heard him
read the Address, they would agree with him in
thinking, that it was one which was most improper
to be prey nted to the Throne—(Hear, hear)—or to
have been .received in a gracious manner. But he
knew that no blame attached to the Throne—that his
Majesty was too early brought up in this countr,
and too deeply impressed with the principles of the
Constitution, to feel any disposition to infringe the
rights, or to impair the attributes which belonged to
this House—(licar, hear).—He could not help ob-
serving, that this Address came from a body of Ec-
clesiastics, who, he thought, might much more pco-
perly have employed themselves in their spiritual du-
ties, than in medding with political matters ! (Hear,
hear).—They would have been much more benefi-
cially engaged in instructing their flocks than in get-
ting up an Address, in which they stated, that the
" violent and unconstitutional speeches of the Oppo-
sition in both Houses of Parliament," encouraged and
excited disaffection in the land—(Hear, hear).—The
Address itself would not, however, have induced him
to bring it before the House, if it had not been pro-
mulgated through -the country with the sanction of
his Majesty's Ministers. This was an attempt to in-
vade the freedom of debate in this House, and thus
.to take away one of the most important privileges of
the people. If any one privilege was deemed snore
sacred and valuable than another in this House, it,
was the right of expressing their sentiments freely,"
'and without any impediment or external restraint:-
11e Noble Lord opposite stated, on a former night,
that a power of selection was exercised as to the in-
sertion.of Addresses in the Gazette; it was avowed
that none were published except those which were
graciously received, and that none were permitted to
go into the Gazette which reflected in any'degree
upon the measures of his Majesty's Ministers. But
all other Addresses were published with the sanction
of the Royal Authorities. He thought it impossible
. that the House could do otherwisethan pronounce this

•.

w.
Address to be a gross breach of its privileges. The
Hon. Baronet then proceeded to read the Address,
which was as follows : •

_______ _
• 0 To Toe zuso's Imre xxeziereT stasterr.
0 The dutiful and loyal Address of the-Presbytery of Langhplm,
County of Dumfries.
° Mon Gammas Soveaasou--We, your Majesty's loyal sub- I
lees, the Ministers of the Presbytery of Langtudin, feel it to-be
our duty, in the present crisis, to testify, in this way our at-
tachment to your Ma. 's person and Government.
"We have witnessdwith much concern, and we strongly de-
" precate, the spirit of disaffection lately become so prevalent,
" from what we would term the violent and unconstitutional
speeches of the Opposition in both Houses of Parliament—
" (Haar)—and the infamous scurrility and misrepresentation of
0 a licentious Press.
" As teachers of Religion, we deplore the Infidel sentiments
" that are sedulously disseminated, and that have contributed
a more than any other cause to excite the feelings which have of
"late been but too openly manifested: for it must be evident
" that when men renounce their allegiance to Coe, they will
" also betray their King and Country : and would not those to
" whom tee allude nzioice to wen Inn the Ater, the Throne, and the
Cautitution, when they scoff at Religion, insult their King,
" and bring such railing accusations against the Wren who, under
an all-wise and over-ruling Psovinasee, and supported by your
Majesty, have saved their country, and in whom, we will yen-
" ture to say, the good sense of the nation still confides?—(Hear,
and laughter.)
" With every good citizen and loyal subject, we reprobate
the Address and Petition of the Common Council of the City
" of London--I(Laughter)—than which a greater insult could not
be offered to Majesty, and which it behoves all who wish well
" to their King and Country publicly to condemn ; nor can we
" refrain from reprehending severely the insolence of certain
" Members of the Opposition upon the late prorogation of Par-
" lament—(Hear, and laughter)--fnr if such conduct in the Re-
" presentative* of the People pass unnoticed, what may be ex-
" petted from the People themselves r
" We rejoice, however, to think that, whatever be the views
of a few factious demagogues, and to whatever lengths a few ig-
norant and deluded .men might allow themselves to be carried,
the great bulk of the People in this, and in almost every guar-
ter, conscious of the blessings they enjoy under an enviable Con-
stitution, and under your Majesty's paternal sway, will heartily
unite in protecting your Mojesty's person and Government, and
in transmitting our rights and privileges unimpaired to future
generations.

" We fervently pray that Arznown• Gon may confer on your
Majesty every spiritual and temporal blessing, and that your
reign over a free, a loyal, and a united People, may be long,
happy, and prosperous..
" Signed, in name, presence, and by appointment of the Pres-
bytery of Langholm, at Langholm, this 19th day of December,
1820, by " WILLIAM BERRY SHAW, Moderator."
(This title excited much laughter)
The Itight Honourable Baronet then handed the Gaunt to
the clerk, who read the three passages marked with inverted
commas, which having been done, the Right Honourable Baro-
net moved, " That the paper entitled the dutiful and loyal
Address of the Presbytery of Langholm, in the county of
Dumfries,' published in the london Gazette, on the cla7 of
January, is a dire't and manifest breach of the essential privi-
leges of this House of Parliament."
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that in point
of fact the Honourable Baronet ought to have con-
fined his motion to those parts which constituted the
breach, and not hate involved the whole paper, in
which, in point of fact, there were many passages
which did not come under that description. He,
however, allowed that there were passages in it which
it would be difficult to defend, if pressed upon the
notice of the House, and he was the last person in
the world to sanction any encroachment on the pri-
vileges of that House. It was only generally, and
under prudential considerations, that he submitted it
to the Right Hon. Baronet, whether this was a case
for pushing the matter to its extent ? Would it be
advantageous, amid the multitude of libels on the
House ana on its Members, with which the Press
teemed, to take up one insulated example, or by doing
so provoke a general proceeding against all who
offended, which, if done, would entirely occupy Par-
liament for many months, and put a stop to all other
business? The Right lion. Baronet had, he was sure,
taken a more fair and liberal view of it, and he went
along with him in his statement ; but he put it to him
that the matter could not be cart ied further than the
bringing it specifically before the House (which he
would not resist), without causing a wider movement
than could be wished on either side. It appeared to
him thaV the Hon. Baronet could not have heard the
full explanation given by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Bathurst) on a former night, otherwise he might not
have thought even the present proceeding necessary.
His Right lion. Friend had stated that the Addresses
for publication in the Gazette were selected from the
whole number presented, by the Noble Secretary of
State, his relative; but he had further declared, that
in the present instance the publication had taken
place in consequence of an oversight and inadver-
tency, and that it occasioned regret when it was dis-
covered—(llear, hear). The practice was the practice
of all Administrations, and was founded on principles
of sound reason and justice; and he argued, that if
this was unfit for the Gazette, so, a fortiori, were
many of the Addresses, &c. on the other side of the
question, to be published where they appeared. He'
was convinced, that, under the explanation of his'
Right Hon. Friend, the Right Hon. Baronet would
admit, that so far from the offence being aggravated
by the consent of Government, it became extenuated
by their Protest. The indignation of the Honse,
therefore, would be misdirected in this case, and
he hoped the Right Honourable Baronet would
be satisfied that it was not that which rendered it
necessary to vindicate the privileges of the House.—
He submitted to Honourable Gentlemen the expe-
diency of not taking up any narrower line with
regard to the freedom of discussion in the Public,
as to what was done or said in Parliament.--

Reprisals were the last species of warfare he should
wish to engage in; but it was not to be expected
that, however patient one side (the Ministerial) was
in its nature, they would consent to lie quietly on
their backs—(A laugh)—and suffer all the libellous
attacks upon-them, while the other side covered them-
selves with the broad shield of privilege. He really
did not think that any public good could accrue
from this state of things : and as it could not be al-
lowed, he trusted that the present matter would not
be pushed to a law and precedent for similar occa-
sions. To publish any part of their proceedings wall
a breach of privilege; yet k would be strange in any
one now to stop that communication which led to,
the discussion throughout the country of what was '
done by the House and by parties within it. With
all due deference, then, it was a little too much in

the Opposition to suppose that there was one party
not liable to be assailed, that there was one party
against which nothing must be said, nor any whis-
per that it could act unconstitutionally, while an-
other was to be aspersed and vilified at pleasure.—
The Right Honourable Baronet, in reading the Ad-
dress, he noticed, had not appeared to him to lead
it very fairly. He had proceeded as if it was en-
tirely applied to the House, whereas, in fact, it was
divided Into three subjects, the speeches of the Op-

~~_.

'•'ol6

position, the blasphemous put
and (whether wisely or not) so;
issued from the Common C'
for these observations he call
to the Par of the nouse—if
ample for bringing forward
would pledge himself by to-rni
or four charges from Addresses
which the most unjustifiable
visited upon him and his coil
warrantable motives imputed
liamentary conduct, and the
upon the House, of corropt,o,
People, and of other crimes.
posite required that they shoe
begged to offer his counter-,
there was to be one protected
there ought to be another; it;
disavowed its knowledge any
tion, he hoped that it would
to prosecute it any further.
Mr. SCARLETT would
House with any observations
had not been for what had _
Lord. He had very ingenious',
offender in this case, the unh
signed the Address. That ini
the Noble Lord had describe.
able person ; and if it had been
selection of the Address for -
the subject would, perhaps, ,
being brought before the IIou:
gave a sting to this Address
way into the Gazette, as a pu'
mediate sanction of Admini,
been most graciously received
One of the most important
of the House of Commons w;
his Majesty's name, or the kit
should have no effect in guidi
for any man to state to his Y
debates of that noose, and
terise them, was highly unc,
If there could be a greater
this, it was, that a Minister
stated the Address so charak
have been most graciously Ivo
The Noble Lord (Sidmouth)
to be made for the eccurreny
be stated that he was sorry
this sort of apology were t;
passing over a breach of pri%
knew not why they should not
breach of privilege, provide'
dered—(Heue, hear).—He a;
of some of the Noble Lord's I
with him when he said that
over their privileges with so
vent the people front animad.
ings of the House; because,
of that House and those whor
should be a free communicati
Press was the best medium fo
munication. In this instance
was not committed by any
tuents, but by a Minister of
fore it was the more importai
passed over in silence... Thy
instances had occurred of late
visited, perhaps with too rill
versions on their proceedings
lar character ; and he cone(
equitably to refrain from
which was vested in them ah
all occasions to enforce it agail
If it were an attack on an i
would be well for him to ezerci
before he determined to submit
House ; but it was no such
attack on those who were desi;
trition," Did his Majesty kr
that House? Did Ministers
there were a body of men
“ violent and unconstitutioi
were known—if the fact co;
and satisfactorily proved, it
parchment rather than breaL
hear). He did not think the
passed over. The apology
but the Address would still
the Gazette. If the Noble Lord
means by which the apology
Journals of the House, he sat
could not suffer the business
Lord had suggested. They
'tion—an attack had been mat
speeches of Members of that
tisfaction they received was -
ters were sorry for it. But 1.
thing to-morrow if some efficient
sorted to, and again make
regret. Were they to aba
titer, because a Minister offered .
kuowledged that the proceeding
hoped it would not be thought.
press the business invidiously
If the motion would have tht.
Gentleman to town from Scotland,
for it ; because he appeared
norant man. Certainly he
passed in that House—(Hear,
not in the paper which thy
signed; but in the use that'
the sanction it appeared to
Majesty's Government. Ur
he submitted that the Right
withdraw his proposition,
devised to express the sense
subject—(Hear, hear).
Mr. BATHURST said the pub;
dress arose entirely from mad
as possible an apology was made
Gazette. The Right Honourab)
justice, have quoted the '
Bathurst's) speech on the. fit
He then stated, that the Addr,
through inadvertence, and
his Majesty's Ministers=(
ground of the circumstance 1
by inadvertence, and on that
ceived the House ought to
Sir J. NEWPORT assured
Gentleman, that the noise
night he alluded to was so
from hearing the whole of
an entry to the following effect

pll_p
-..----

C'snoaobraltlllinecca:iitl:i°liontilftrnroLeornoititnel..dtieno:l:n.est'!f
tiled the
this were to be an ea •
.sses of anothertedll7sl:::}treeit 7:
accusations were I.
colleagues, the most na„
NI to them for their Par.
e most gross imputations.
.ion, of disregard to the
s. If the Gentlemen 0p; •
ould be thus covered, he
r-pmject—(A /41/04,4
ed set, he contended dui
but as Gevernmeta had
ad assent to this public:'
or
d be deemed unnecessari
l not have troubled th 4
is on this occasion, if ia
I fallen from the New
."
ottsly put forward as tit
inhappy Moderator %ha
individual might be, a,
bed him, a very respeet.
been with him that tit
r publication had rested,
, have been unsvotthy of 't
ouse—(fle&r).—llutwiat 1
is was, that it found its tt
pupstbarlraittstaio of ltilo,nthatned tcdoearnsa btheitnuitiingn.:
nill
!d by the Crown—V/earl, ;g
was, that the influenceof c
knowledge of his opinion, k'
iding their decisions; ar,4 nt
M.ijeszy any part of tie '3(
much mo,e to chary.
coitstitutional--(Krzr),...
7 breach of privilege that
rof the Crown public!! I
actcrizing tile debates; I
received—(H.:7, krar).—
s) had desired an apolv
nce—he had caused it to '
it had taken place. It
to justify the House h
sivilege of this nature,lte
not pass over any ode
led an apology was ter, in
admitted the good sent
s observations. He agreed
I they ougkt not tome -'
o much severity as to pre.
adverting on the proceed. .
between the Memben
om they represented,thee •
scion of sentiment,aud
for keeping up that con .'1
we the act complained ti
y portion of their core. '
if the Crown, and that. ".
.tant that it should sack
'hey all knew that m 4 '3
ate years where the Hoar a
much severity, soitrad. *_
Igs which assumed a pops. ;
nceived it was not 260:
exercising the author*/
against the Crown, ands
gainst the People—(Bart.
at individual -Member, it
xercise a sound discretion, •
übmit a complaint to'
thing. It was a ;nerd
designated as an " Oppo
know of an Oppmiionil
s state to his Majesty tut 4
s in Parliament who mde
ional speeches?" If the '!
:ould be brought form!,
ot
it would be matter Si.
each of privilege—(an;
the matter could be tbe.
1
ytillwreoumldabine
osol:athne.forgeleipagasi
Lord wcfnld point outside
igy could be placed on di
would be satisfied: bade
iess to drop, as the Ni
r were placed in this set
made in the Gazette on*
that House, and all thee
as a declaration that Mil •
at they might do the' •
efficient step were et!'
ke the same &tinselled •
iandon the matter air
)ffered an apology ode'
needing was wag? •
sought that he ones
tsly against any indesill.
the effect of bringagd.
Scotland, be should be seed •
ed to him to be aMt
the Rev. Gentleman in!
Lt had been made of it, set
to have received from
fear, hear}.
Under these circumsteetes
, unless some means er_
en:htseHoofn.
knew very
Thlittleesiin;4ll.
, inadvertence, and ass.
• seeun• it di*
s made for to
thßearlinetonseclelics:
othurae publication
bßarotostlf the Al
nt
latter part of his (Mr'
first night of the Session,"
Address appeared eel
I without the sanctioe.:
• c
hat ground alone, be d'ce hHaevatiing
pass it over.
hbeeearn).--00ccaiool 1 IP
) fired
great as to prevelY 5" .
his explanation. f: 4
the Rpi
ffect would mcct the
grehvCa lliledn° 0D: c 4 1::,
se which

to nteci Friend. After stating the Piper to
coin 2 Breach of Privilege- it might be added—
, pa it having been stared to the House, on the
„rt of the Secretary of Stare for the Home Depart
4 that the Paper was considered by him to be re-
wbeible, and that it got into the Gazette by mis-
ic does not appear that the House proceeded fur-
tmerCePt to place this disavowal on their Journals."
Lord CASTLEREAGH suggested that the debate
tad be adjourned till to-morrow, in order to give
p,ight Honourable Baronet an opportunity to
$1,44 a proper form of words ; which, after a few
iborrscions from Mr. GORDInt, was agreed to.
Pt NA NCE.

'd

MABERLY wished to call the attention of
gclule
to what he considered a subject of the ut-
jot importance. It was for some papers relative to
*sante affairs of the country. He rose to move
re to account of the deficiency of the Consolidated
ied, on the sth January, 1621, and of the manner
U which this deficiency had been made up. He
,mod to call their attention to the Sinking Fund.
are have nominally a Sinking Fund of seventeen
rations, while, in reality, we have only two millions,
ad that to meet a debt of between eight and nine
!oared millions. We have had now six years of
race; and all that we have is a Sinking Fund of
tgo millions to meet this enormous debt. Could any
son verse that a Sinking Fund of two millions
toold ever enable the country to get into that con-
&ion in which it could struggle with difficulties?
On a future Occasion he should beg leave to call the
attc:..i mof the Howe to this Sinking Fund. It was a
rnere :,kilacy, and he should endeavour to strip it of
all its ceisions, and to expose it in its real and true
P .ht. ' FT, in reality, what is a Sinking Fund?
It is t. e a%iount of our revenue over our expenditure.
lie nee anxious for a Sinking Fund, but he should
like to see it stripped of all its fallacies. He did not
anticipate from the King's Speech any great reduc-
t'on in the ex 'enditure. There were, indeed, some
i3inaations thrown out about a reduction in our Mi-
litary Establishment. If the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) persevered
la this system, and did not economise, it was quite
impossible that any relief could be extended to the
People; and, in his opinion, the Agriculturalists
would soon be applying for relief; and what relief
cold the Parliament extend, but a reduction in the
tmtion? If they were to look to the price of grain
car, and what it was thirty years ago, they would
52dit pretty nearly equal. And now theirlurdens
=tenfold, they hare additional rent to pay, besides
direct and indirect taxation. It was impossible they
/cold continue to exist wader these accumulated rents.
No relief could, then, be extended to them, except a
redection in the taxes. The expense of collecting the
resew was most exorbitant. Here it was eight per
cent—in Ireland it amounted to nothing less than 21
patent. Now, was it not a most enormous sum that
eight pounds out of every £lOO should go into the
picket of the collector ? In fact, it was quite impos-
lie that things could go on in their present condi-
tion. The People will not longer be able to endure
their burdens, and they are not to expect any relief
hom the reduction of taxes. The Country will be
amble to meet any emergencies, either from war or
say other cause. It was with these feelings that he
made his present motion, and he thought it right to
do so before any supplies were granted ; and although
a was perfectly easy to get those Acts printed, yet it
seldom happened that they could get them until nearly
the end (lithe Session.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
happy to state that the expenses of the present year
mid be defrayed without a loan of any kind,
ad that period was now arrived which the People
sidled for so ardently, when there was no necessity
ts resort to any loan, or to an increase of taxes. In
consequence of the depression of trade, a consider-
able decrease took place in the revenue; and it must
he con olatory to the House to learn the real state of
the trade of the country at present. The amount of
eported British manufactures, in the half year end-
* the sth of January, 1821, in the ports of Lon-
ion, Liverpool, and Hull, exceeded the preceding
War by three millions and a half. And he was
bppy to inform the House that he "saw every reason
r anticipate a still greater increase.
&JOHN NEWPORT could not help calling the
attention of the House to the enormous expense of
collecting the revenue in Ireland. There, where
rade is depressed to the lowest degree, the People
ate bowed down with an overwhelming weight of
taxation, and those burdens are still furtheeincreasedl
hy the enormous expense of collecting the revenue.
There was one subject connected with these matters
which he had to complain, that when an applica-
tion is made for any papers relative to the subject,
the Session is allowed to pass over before the House
put in possession of them. He perfectly concurred
pith the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Maberly) that
the Sinking Fund should be stripped of all its fal-
lacies. Nothing could be more absurd or unjust
than to hold out delusions to the People of this sort,
mating that there is a real Sinking Fund, whereas it is
rarely nominal. He hoped that Honourable Mem-
her would persevere in his intention of instituting an
issestipticn. It was hut justice to the People to
Wideceive them on that point. With respect to the
increase of exports, of which the flight Honourable
Gentleman spoke, he had been taught to look with
great suspicion at these exports. He knew that these
sports frequently took place to the ruin of the ex-
Potter, and that no return was made to the country.
Mr. PASCOE GRENFELL observed, that the
%Ain Fund was merely delusive. He would sup-
lwathat-there really was a nominal Sinking Fund of
wenteen millions, and he would even suppose that
the real Sinking Fund amounted to five millions, in-
stead of two; still he was at a loss to know why the
teelre millions remaining should not be struck (
414 the Sinking
Fund be considered what it really
lad truly was, five millions. They all knew very
that the Right lion. Gentleman borrowed the
Joe at about three per cent.—but when the half-
Lear s interest became due, he found it impossible to
I the dividends without borrowing the money a se-
road.o
for time. lie would ask if it was a proper situa-
the Guveraimeat of a country to be in, not to
he able to pay the claim of the public creditor with-
wt :wing to the 11.ii,k to borrow ? The Right Hon.
c.c. an lust year stated, that in a short time the
leit:tenty of the Consolidated Fund would correct it-
. He would now ask him, if the result had an-
mered his clicctatious--whether the hope had been

•.

immiOo

realized which he held out et that time—whether the
deficiency had not been greater in the last quarter
than in the corresponding quarter of the preceding
year—whether, in fact, the deficiency had not in-
creased from £8,500.000 to £8,800,000?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
in reply to the observation of the Right Hon. Baro.
net. respecting the expense of the collection of the
Revenue, he had great satisfaction in being able to
state that a saving to a large amount had been ef-
fected by the regulations which had been lately esta-
blished. He had not any intention at present ot
turning into funded debt any part of the present un-
funded debt, the latter not being greater than the
public credit could conveniently support. When-
ever the actual Sinking Fund reached a given amount,
he thought it might then be advisable to reduce the
nominal Sinking Fund, and he looked forward with
confidence to the approach of the period when that
reduction might be practicable. With regard to the
arrangement for meeting the payment of the divi-
dends, to which the Honourable Member had alluded,
he did not think that a wiser arrangement could be
adopted, and he could prove that a very large sum
of money had been saved by it to the public.
Mr. MABERLY said, the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had stated that there was an increase in the
Revenue ; but the produce of the new Taxes had
been estimated at £3,800,000, while the amount
which they had really produced was only £2.500,000;
so that, in fact, here was a deficiency of £1,000,000.
With respect to the Sinking Fund, he could tell the
Right Honourable Gentleman, that next year it
would most likely be less than it had been in the last;
and he would tell hirn the reason. He had charged
the expenses and interest of his loans on the Consoli-
dated Fund until that fund could bear it no longer;
and then he charged the expenses and interest of the
last year's loan upon the Sinking Fund. Dut that.
charge would not affect the Sinking Fund until nett
year ; so that, in all probability, the real amount of
that fund would be decreased next year instead of
augmented. He really was at a loss to account for
the expectation held out by the Right Honourable
Gentleman of a continued increase in the Revenue;
he could not imagine how It could be fairly and
honestly calculated upon. He should be happy if it
remained A it now is; and he thought it was ex-
tremely well, when the distressed condition of agri-
culture and the depression of commerce were consi-
dered. With respect to the £6,000,000 borrowed of
the Bank, he would grant that the Public had been
benefited by it; but was it not a disgraceful thing
that a fund regarded as sacred to a particular pur-
pose should have been diverted to another object?
In the year 1817, the deficiency of the Consolidated
Fund was £2,500,000; in the next year there was an
increase; in the year following, there was a still
greater decrease than the former ; and at last we had
a Sinking Fund of two millions to pay off a debt of
nearly £900,000,000.
Mr. BARING said, with respect to the present
state of the Sinking Fund, he fully concurred in
what had been stated by the Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down. To enter into these com-
plicated accounts with this farce of a double Sinking
Fund, so as to make them intelligible to the House,
was quite impossible. He did not know any object
which the Right Honourable Gentleman could have
in view in retaining it but to render the accounts un-
intelligible. The Right Honourable Gentleman said
he looked forward to the time when the nominal
Sinking Fund might be given up. He could not
conceive what objection he could have to give it up
at once, and by coming to the real Sinking Fund,
let the House understand the real state of the public
accounts. It required a person of considerable un-
derstanding and experience in accounts to compre-
hend them, and many persons who were very con-
versant with the nature of accounts in general, found
themselves totally incapable of understanding them.
With respect to the Right Honourable Gentleman's
expectations of improvement in the Revenue, he
could not understand how it was possible that the
existing Agricultural and Commercial distresses
should continue, without their effects being felt in
the Revenue of the Country. He would recommend
the Right Honourable Gentleman to apply his atten-
tion to the simplification of the accounts, as it was
absolutely necessary for rendering them intelligible.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the increase of the revenue in the last half-year
was greater than he remembered to have ever known
it before, and from the Reports of the Revenue
Boards, he had every reason to hope that it would
continue to increase. With respect to what had been
said by the Hon. Gentleman as to the propriety of a
simplification of the accounts, he fully concurred
with the Hon. Gentleman in the propriety of such a
measure, if it were practicable, but he really thought
that the course recommended by the Hon. Member
would only render the whole course of the accounts
more perplexed and unintelligible; he could not
but think it more wise to continue the present form.
Mr. PHILLIPS said, he really did believe that
neither the Right Hon. Gentleman nor any other
Gentleman in the House understood the annual ac-
counts. He knew of no reason why the national ac-
counts should not be as clearly and intelligibly stated
as those of any private merchant. An account of
millions was as easily kept, and as susceptible of clear
arrangement, as of thousands. What the Right Hon.
Gentleman had said that evening convinced him, if
possible, more than anything which he had heard
before, that the accounts of the country were in such a
complicated state that no man could understand them,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained, that they were made up agreeably to cer-
tain forms which had been long in use, and if any
other forms were adopted, any comparative state-
ment referring to former accounts would become
wholly unintelligible.
Mr. GRENFELL said, that the Right Honourable
Gentleman's paternal anxiety for the double account
of the real and the nominal Sinking Fund was per-
fectly natural, the invention being entirely his own.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
it had been recommended originally by Mr. Fox, and
the suggestion had afterwards been approved of by
Mr. Pitt.—The motion was then put and carried.
Mr. MABERLY then moved for an Account of
the sums of money applicable to the redemption of
the Public Debt of the United Kingdom, distinguish.
ing that of England from that of Ireland, for the year
ending the Bth January, 1821; also, for an Account
of the total amount of the unredeemed Debt of the

United Kingdom, with the charges of managing the
same, separating that of Ireland from that of England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
begged to state, that the Honourable Gentleman was
incorrect in the statement he had given in an earlier
part of the evening of the amount of the Debt.
Mr. MA BERLY said, he had stated it at about
E 900,000,000. The funded debt amounted to
£800,000,000, and the unfunded to L"70,000,000:
which, if funded at the present price, would be nearly
£100,000,000, and both together would then be little
short of what he had stated.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the funded debt was certainly nearly £800,000,000,
but the amount of the unfunded debt was only
£30,000,000 instead of £70,000,000, as stated by
the Hon. Member, and if funded at the present time,
would add £10,000,000 to the amount of the funded
debt.—The motions were then agreed to, as were also
several others for Papers of a similar nature.
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD moved for a Copy of the
Order of the Board of Excise of the 24d of July last, on the
subject of Irish Spirits.
PROVISION FOR TILE QUEEN.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the Order of the
Day for considering the Report of the Committee of
Supply, recommending a provision to be made for
the Queen.—The Report being brought up and read,
Mr. HOLME SUMNER rose, and said, that when
the House was in the Committee be had moved to
reduce the sum proposed to £30,000, and he now'
rose for the purpose of renewing that motion. In
the course of the observations which he had made on
that occasion, he had certainly been )ed by the im-
petuosity of the debate into expressions which he had
much rather that he had not used—(Hear). The
Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite had
charged him with entertaining opinions directly at
variance with the principles of British justice. The
Hon. Member seemed to think that because he (Mr.
H. Sumner) had not been present during the whole
of the inquiry, he was not qualified to judge of the
evidence, or to pronounce as to the innocence or
guilt of the Queen. But he thought that any man
who was present on the day when Lieutenant How-
nam gave his evidence, and had read the whole of
the proceedings as they were published, could form
a correct opinion. He was, however, willing to set
entirely out of the case the whole of the evidence
which had been produced in support of the charges
lagainst her, and to rest his judgment solely on the
testimony of Lieutenant Hownam ; and he felt com-
pletely justified by that testimony in the opinion
which he had pronounced of her guilt. He did not
think it safe to entrust her with so large a sum of
money at her own disposal, as that which the Reso-
lution of the Committee proposed, and he therefore
now moved that the words 4g thirty thousand" be
substituted for the words gg fifty thousand" in the
Resolution—( Hear, hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM said, the House would imme-
diately perceive that he did oot rise to offer any op-
position to the motion of the Honourable Member.
Whether the sum stated were 50, or 30, or 20, or
010,000, was to him and to the colleagues with whom
he had the honour to be associated in her Majesty's
legal counsels, a matter of absolute indifference.—
Her Majesty had positively declined to receive any
sum whatever, and it was therefore to her and to
them perfectly indifferent why was the amount
voted—(Hear, hear)!—With respect to those ex-
pressions in last night's debate, to which the Hon.
Member had alluded, after the candour which the
Honourable Gentleman had shewn in his acknow-
ledgment of their impropriety, he should be the last
man in that House to revive the remembrance of them;
but he must put it to the sense of the Hon. Member and
of the House, whether it could possibly be endured
that, night after night, as had been done, not only
by the Honourable Member for Sorry, but also by
others, they should rake out parts of the evidence
which had been given before another Court, and
that upon such parts and scraps of evidence so de-
tached they should found repeated assertions of her
Majesty's guilt. This had been done night after
night ; but he would now say, that it was a practice
which could no longer be Suffered —(Loud cheers).—
Her Majesty either was, or was not acquitted. If
she was acquitted, she ought to be treated accord-
ingly, and nu man had a right to say that she was
guilty ; if she were not acquitted, then why did not
the prosecution go on ?—(Loud cheers).—lf they were
not satisfied with what had been done, why were not
the proceedings regularly pursued in that House, and
evidence laid before it to prove her guilt?—(Hear).
Let them again bring forward the charges, let them
again go into the proof, and her Majesty would be
prepared to meet them—(Loud cheering)—but let
not such foul, such unsupported assertions any longer
be dealt in—(Loud cheering).
Sir T. B. LETHBRIDGE was prepared to support
the smaller sum, because he did not like to see a large
sum in such hands. He had been told that the
courier, Bergami, had been living in the metropolis
of France, in a style equal to that of a British Noble-1
man; and he wished to know whence his revenues'
came from? He would declare, that from the evidence
the Queen was guilty of the charges against her.
Mr. CURWEN complained of the numerous
charges, without proof, which were every night con-
tinued, in order to keep in agitation the public mind.
He thought they ought to make a provision for her
Majesty adequate to the dignity of the Crown, espe-
cially as the prosecutor had abandoned the prosecution.
He admitted, however, that her Majesty had made use
of expressions such as she would not have used in
other circumstances. Still he could not agree to mix
economy with a gross and palpable denial of justice.
Mr. WESTERN said, if it were to be permitted
to any man to rise in that House, and to say that the
Queen was guilty, that House would be a place
where the grossest injustice was tolerated. He did
regret that such expressions should be used, because
the People would perceive in that House a departure
from all those principles on which British justice was
founded—(Hear, hear).
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD trusted that the
spirit of economy which had on this occasion been
displayed by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite,
the Members for the Counties of Surrey and Somer-
set, would continue to animate them on every future
occasion. He could not, however, avoid expressing•
his opinion that the warmth they had displayed had
been wholly misapplied. It was not to that side of
the House that they should have addressed their ob-
servations, but to his Majesty's Ministers, to the

Treaspiy Bench—(Near,
AWhey (the Opposition)
• • •
supported the Resolution on the supposition of hei
having been acquitted: they thought het innocent
his Majesty's Ministers thought ritheiWise, bdt pro-
posed the grant notwithstandint,; those Ministers.,
therefore, ought to get up to defend limit own con:.
duct in this case. If Honourable Methhers would
get up and make use of such expressions as had
fallen from the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, he
trusted Ministers would rise in their own defence.

Mr. HOLME SUMNER., in explanatjo►i, said, that
he had not moved his Amendment oa the ground of
his opinion of her Majesty's guilt, for he had expressly
stated it to he his opinion that no vindictive proce*J-
ings should be adopted in consequece.! of what had
occurred in the other House. B:►t, thinking that
several of the Queen's Answers to Addresses presented
to her, and the Message which she had yesterday
sent to the House, shewed her wish to produce an
improper influence on the public mind, he did not
think it safe to intrust so large a sum of the public
money to her disposal.
Mr. SYKES said, that whenever a vacancy oc-
curred in the office of Moderator, he would recom-

mend the Hon. Member to become a candidate. He

differed entirely from the lion. Member in his view
of the question, and he also differed from him in the

construction he had put upon her Majesty's Answers
to the Addresses. That House was not sitting to
consider of a scale of reward or punishment, adapted
to a case of supposed guilt or innccence, but to con-
sider what was a proper and fitting allowance for a
person in her high and exalted station. With respect
to that on which the opinions of the whole people
had been so strongly expressed, the insertion of her
name in the Liturgy, in his opinion her Majesty had
a right to demand it, and he thought that, sooner or
later, it must be acceded to. The able legal view
which the Hon. and Learned Member for Oxford

had taken of the question, had carried conviction to
his mind of the right, and the strong expression of
the public opinion impressed him with the conviction
of the necessity of its being ultimately yielded. He
heard it said on one side of the House that her Ma-

jesty was convicted, and on the other, that she was

acquitted. In his opinion she ought to be placed in -
the same condition as if she had never been accused.

Mr. Alderman WOOD said, he should content
himself with replying to the Honourable Member
for Surrey, with one question. He had told the Ho-
nourable Member the night before, that if he would
bring down any unpaid bills of her Majesty's to the
House, he (Mr. Alderman Wood, would undertake
that they should be paid. He wished now to know
whether the Honourable Member had in his pocket
any demands upon her Majesty ?—(Loud dieers). He
would pause for a reply—[The worthy Alderman
sat down, and some Honourable Member rose to ad-
dress the House, when Mr. Alderman Wood again
got up and said]—The Honourable Member for Sur-
rey not having any answer to make to his inquiry,
he had quite done with him—(Loud cheering). But
he had something to offer in answer to the observa-
tions of another Honourable Member. The House
now heard, from the Member for the county of So-
merset, that he had heard of large sums of money
expended by Bergami. He hoped that he would be
prepared to-morrow to shew what sums had been
sent him. He challenged him to prove that one
shilling had gone from hence—(llear). That in-
dividual was at Paris at the express desire of the
Learned Gentlemen (in whose presence he now spoke
it), her Majesty's Legal Advisers, in order to have
been called to this country if the Honourable Mem-
ber and those who thought with him had dared to
have brought the Bill into that House. Had
that been the case, the Honourable Member would,
perhaps, have been gratified with a sight of the Gen-
tlernan—(Hear, hear). He had now done with both
the Hon. Gentlemen; and would turn to the Noble
Lord, to ask him a question similar to those he had
just put. He had seen the Noble Lord reading last
night from a book similar to one which he held in
his hand. The Noble Lord had read it as the Queen's
answer to the City of Canterbury Address, and the
passage peculiarly marked was the following I
trust the period will arrive when I shall be able to
promote the happiness of my subjects." A second
answer had, " I shall be glad to make my people
happy." The question he would ask the Noble Lord
was—Had lie ever seen those passages in writing in
any paper coming from the Queen as her Majesty's
answer? They were, he believed, stated to be the
answers of her Majesty to the Deputations of Dover
and Canterbury ; but, in fact, those answers were
very short, and were given verbally according to
his recollection (and he was present at the time), the
words spoken were something like, and were these—
" It would be a great pleasure to me to make all the
people happy"—(Hear, hear). Her Majesty was in
conversation with the Deputations some time, and
more might have been said ; but there was no written
Address in which such phrases occur, and he chal-
lenged the Noble Lord to point out any such.
_Lord LOWTHER merely rose to state, in corro.•
bOration of what was asserted by the Honourable
Member for Somersetshire, as to the style and man-
ner of living of Bergami, that he was pointed out to
him, and his equipage, servants, and all about his
mode of living were of the most magnificent style.
In what way he got the funds he could not say, but
the fact of his living in that style he could affirm.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in consequence of
the Honourable Alderman's reference to him, he
could state, that it was entirely by his direction, in
conjunction with his Learned Colleagues, that the
individual alluded to was brought from Italy to Paris.
He had been residing on his farm in Italy, and he
was brought to Parts, that in case the Bill should
have come into that House, he might have been sent
for had they thought fit to call him. That he as-
serted of his own knowledge. With respect to the
scale of expenditure of that individual he knew no..
thing, but he did know that if he should have speat
a great sum of money while in attendance on the:
call of the legal advisers of her Majesty, he was not
the only witness who had made a'similar expenditure.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that he was sur-.
prised the Honourable Aldermao fAmuld have called
upon him, who was neither in the service nor confi-
dence of her Majesty, to produce the written An-
swers of her Majesty; so that thd Honourable Alder-
man might very safely give the gallant challenge he
bad done. He thought there were other things more
serious than the rhodomontades which had been read;
and he thought the Honourable Alderman would

1

have been occupying his time better 0-. an giving
challenges, if he had corrected the Press of that pro.
duction'froin which the quotation was made. He
'would now read another instance, in order that the
Honourable Alderman might correct the error in the
next edition (with which he understood the world was
shortly to be favoured) of these prtrioles doctrines,
mural, political, and religions. The Noble Lord then
read an extract from the Queen's. Answer to the
\Vandsworth Address of the 13th October last:—
" Ne Queerer was ever more easy of access to her
People than I have been." But these were trifling
objections, compared to others: his objection was to
the whole of the system, as laid down in the Answers
to Addresses.
Mr. GIPPS complained that Honourable Mem-
bers had no right to assert the proceedings against
her Majesty were " cemented by penury." The
Hon. Member referred the House to a Resolution on
their Journals, in which the House of Commons re-
turned their thanks to Queen Anne for having di-'
rected the name of the Electress Sophia, the next
in stiecesioll, to be insetted in the Liturgy ; that being
the fact, how could it now be contended that the in-
sertion of her Majesty's name was purely Ministerial?
Mr. DENMAN could give no opinion as to the
propriety of granting a larger or a smaller sum to her Majesty;
but he must reprobate the way in which persons in that and the
orbs House of Parliament, still continued to speak of her Ma-
jesty. lie maintained that she was acquitted ; for, as the pro-
secutors abandoned then proceedings, she had the fullest right to
all that acquittal. Had the Dill come down to that house, how
could Gentlemen have sat as Judges on her dlajesty, with the
feeling they exhibited now against her? They had a right to
th:ir own opinions ; but not to talk of her as a guilty and con-
victed person. Ile wished Noble Lords and others would re-
member the principles of British justice, instead of condescending
to examine the equipage of a foreigner, and coming to report
upon it in that House. Her Majesty had-at all times, as now,
claimed as a right the insertion of her name into the Liturgy.
Of that right there could be now no doubt, since the Member
for Oxt.rdr Mr. Wetherell) had placed it in such a prfect blaze of
light, that it was difficult to approach it again. No man believed
that the Qneett was engaged in, or had intention to, overthrow
the Coastitution of the country. He and his Honourable and
Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) would not even pair off on
this question.
Mr. WILMOT said, he must continue to believe that the
omission of the Queen's name from the Liturgy was perfectly
according to law ; and that the insertion of it was a mere mat-
ter of grace and favour. He thought it his duty to vote for
such an allowance to the Queen, however, as befitted her su-
tion• and' at the same time her separation from his Majesty.—
He lota, therefore, object to the Amendment of the Hon.
Member for Surrey.
Sir T. A CKLAND particularly agreed with this vote, be cause
it came to no conclusion as to her Majesty's guilt or innocence.
If it had not been for her Majesty's self-denial and generosity,.
she would have had, when Princess of Wales, as much as she
was now about to have voted for her separate maintenance.
Mr. FORBES would vote for the original sum ; and say,
with an Honourable and Learned Gentleman in another .place,
" Go in peace, and sin no more !"

Mr. 151101.56 ILI Al said, that this was (he would not say on
the part of the Honourable Member) a most false perversion of
the meaning of Es Honourable and Learned Friend.

Sir F. li-LAK I:. explained something he had said on a preced-
ing day. He should have been inclined to move a greater sum
fur the Queen, but fur the state: of the country. The example
of the Queen in paying her bills was one worthy of imitation.—
He should support the motion of the Noble Lord.

..
The Gallery was cleared, but no division took place, and the
original Motion for £30,000 was carried.