Star.
London, England, 1816-03-21 00:00:00

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vat those in that Houle, *in whosesuiinds it WO SO(,
defence of,bad acts to assert that others were equollr
guilty of them.—(llear, Government
would, there_
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lore, Ca.-
edge, and to preserve-the inviolability of the plig-oo
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faith of their Prince. It was in vain for them u
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If
to those who called for a true system
;mote ---
-of recononsy..lf it be clamour to watch with a jealous
eye the proceedings of Ministers, he ( Mr. Methuen)
Iliad no objection to be called clamorous. It was tu
such clamour the people of England owed their
liberties, and the abandonment of the odious measure
of the Income Tax.—(Hear, Heer.)—For his own
he would no longer support the measures of
Government, except so far as they at'neared to
ceosnate from a spirit of economy. The Honourable
umber concluded by moving a Resolution expres-
sive of their approbatioa of the Order of January,
„Inn. which regulated the Admiralty Salaries in
peace, and also the total dissent of the House
from the policy which led to a departure from the
fo system, and the increase of salaries which
rmer
sad, io conbequence, taken place.
lord CASTLEREAG H said, that whenever a
r„~jpn was put in a fair• manner before the House,
he would neither quarrel with the mode in which it
was brought forward nor call it clamour. Bot he
bad a right to complain of a disposition to clamour
on the part of those Gentlemen who imputed to Mi-
nisters a want of intention to fulfil their pledge. He
did complain of clamour, when there appeared a pre.
mature disposition to condemn the Members of the
Government before they could be prepared to explain
their conduct, respecting the economy they had pro-
visa, and meant to carry into effect. He hoped
then that
.the House would not be indisposed to af-
ford them an opportunity of :hewing that they had
sot made any lavish expenditure of public money ;
and that no confidence would be withdrawn until a
period arrived at which they should be able to lay
tke whole of their proceedings in regard to the
changes about to be made in public offices before the
Howe. There were arrangements now going for-
ward for establishing plans of public economy, they
were in their progress, but could not be immediately
tarried into effect. The Government hoped shortly,
to be able to lay before the House such documents as
would shew the extent and nature of the retrench-
menu that were to be made, particularly in the mili•
illy department, but this could not be dune all at
we. He would now state some of the retrench-
ments to which he alluded. In the department of
the Secretary of State there was a reduction of seven
clerks, one writer, and an interpreter ; the saving
thus made amounted to between three and £4OOO
per mum. The reduction in the War Office was
not yet ascertained, as the accounts of the army were
not made out. In this Paymaster General's Office
there was a saving already made of (1131,000 a year,
by the dionissal.of clerks, and by the reduction in-
tended to be made in establishments abroad the
whole saving in that department would be M. 1 ,(100
a year. In the Commissariat department the reduc-
tion in officers and clerks would be very consider-
able, and produce a saving of £lOO,OOO. The total
reduction in the Storekeeper's department would
cause a saving of ten thousand pounds. Some saving
would take place in the Barrack department, but
they were sot yet made out. nom the AdmiraLy
*clerks and nine messengers had been already dis-
charged, and thus a saving of five thousind pounds a
year would be produced. In the Navy Office there
was a saving of £4,000. In the Victualling Office
the saving wos X 25,000. There was a farther
saving with regard to artificers. The Tral:spor,
Office was discontinued altogether. No return had
yet been made from the Ordnance Office, nor from
tome smaller Offices • but every thing already done
proved how diligently Government was occupied in
making retrenchments. The total amount of the
savings already made amounted to £650,000 a year ;
aid independently of these there were severa other
este blithments not yet reduced. His object ia men-
tioning the above statements was to shew that Mini-
sters were not employed in the creating of offices.—
The question now before the House did not take its
origin at the present time, it had beets brought fur.
' ward in 1806 ; and when Mr. Percival was at the
bud of the Government, in consequence of the great
incase in the excise revenue, he did consent to an
is ease of salary to the officers. At the present
time, the Gentlemen in question collected a revenue
if set less than forty millions per annum ; twenty
Mims of increased revenue had passed through
therhands before any increase was made in their sa-
lines ; and surely there could be no better mode of
stimulating their exertions than by giving them an
*legume remuneration for the services they perfor-
ated. There was imposed on them a great increase
of labour and responsibility, and surely they were en-
titled to an increased reward. Under these circum-
stances, the Treasury thought it would be promoting
the interests of the public to give adequate remune-
ration to these Gentlemen. The salaries which were
inadequate during the war, were adequate now; and
Ite would put it to the House, whether any thing could
serve the revenue better than toelevate those emplayed
'collecting so large a portion of it as 40 millions ?
The whole additional expense was £75,000, and that
!e.l was no more than these Gentlemen were end-
ued to as a matter of right. Besides, it must be
ftlsidered, that the diminution in prices of necessa-
Iles had taken place only in some very few articles,
?sly in bread and meat. The Gentlemen in question
"led forward- to this fair remuneration in peaje,'
aid it was no more than they were justly entitled to.
As to the change that had taken place in the salaries
of Persons at the head of the Admiralty, lie must
sly, that the Honourable Gentleman had departed
'tom the general principle already laid down ; for be
had said nothing
about the salaries of the other per-
". employed •at the Admiralty. It was irregular,
L'o,b(Olg forward a motion on a particular salary
'More that salary came to be discussed in a proper
forml in the House So far back as the year 1807,
Mir. principle of 1800 was applicable to all persona
employed in the Admiralty and Navy Offices. A
illeawrial was then presented, and the Order in
Connell was altered. The Honourable Gentleman,
the •
Secretary of the Admiralty, was no party to that
gyration, because he wished to shew that he did note
et
_to make it a question personally applying to
vinl 111 but those alterations came from the Board
Admiralty, and were agreed to by the Treasury ;
4"3 be could assure the' House that his Honourable
rllod'aft
Var. Ctoker) was wholly indifferent whether'

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Nfraarary was Heed 'at BIM Or' 1300
The question was agitated with the &mid of o.doni-
'mitt after the peace
.with America, and before flit
breaking of of the late war with France, when the
business of the Adroirarty wag attended with as much
labour as it had been at any fornier period: The
Admiralty, therefore, applied to the Board of Trea-
sury' to alter the regulation respecting salaries. and it
was considered proper to take a common standard as
between war and peace, at a time when the buiiness•
was as great as in an actital period of war. There
was no situation more important, of more efficiency,
or of greater personal labour and confidence, than
that which Was now filled by his Honourable Friend;
and besides, it was of. the utmost importance, that
the office should be filled by a person of high honour •
and character, in whom the secrets of the country
might be safely trusted. The office, ever since the
peace, w3s one of immense personal labour. The
whole scale of our Navy was so altered of late years,
by the increase of ships, Officers, and stations,
as to
make the office much more laborious than it ever
had been before. The Secretary of -the Admiralty,
so far from being a Gentleman it large in time of
peace, had incessant labour without any relaxation
in the duti?s of his station, as well in peace as in
-war. He trusted, that when the proper tint?. for the
consideration of the question would come, the House
would see his Majesty's Government had exercised a
sound judgment en this occasion. Ttiat time would
be, when the Navy Estimates were regulaity before
the Huse ; and he, therefore, thought the pre.ent
motion premature. With that view he should
move the Order of the Day on th?...questi,in, not
in order to preclude it from due consideration, but
that that consideration should be afforded to it on
the regular occason.
Mr. HENRY MARTIN did not think the Noble
Lord had made out aufcase, and he considered the
Hon. Gentleman whO brought the question before
the House entitled to the gratitude .f the country.
Mr. WAR!) did not consider that the Noble Lord.
had given one satisfactory argiiment for the increase
of the salary in question. The Secretary of the Ad-
miralty, previous to the Peace ot Amiens, hid more
to do than the Secretary of the Admiralty at present.
Yet the Secretary of that day had but stS(K)O a•year,
and was not that sufficient now, in time of peace,
when there was less to do ? The Noble Lord said,
that 100 revenue cutters were added to the Secretary
of the Admiralty's department; but if they were,
they were taken from another department, and no di.
minutiou in We sentries of that other department re-
sulted from the ch .nge.
Mr. ROBINSON differed totally with the Hon.
Gentleman who bi ought forward this question, if he
objected to the increase of salary on principle. The
Honourable Gentleman might think the salary too
much ; but he coald not agree with him, thu there
ought not to be as high a salary in time of peace as
.n time of war. This was a situation of much con.
tidence, of much responsibility, and of great labour—
a situation that absorbed all tile faculties of mind
and body ; and •though the duties of it might not be
entirely so arduous now as in time of war, every con-
sideration required that the salary should not be di.
tarnished.

Mr. WARD explained.
Mr. VERNON urged the necessity of economy in
every branch of the lisatto, and said that he had voted
for the Income Tamil as hang, in his opinion, directly
conducive to economy; Those, therefore, who sup-
ported that measure on such principles, sit ,uld feel
themselves bound to look with extreme jealousy to
every point which could, by the-remotest possibility,
increase the public burdens. Matters, apparently
trifling, demanded this attention particularly, for,
according to a good old adage, it we take care of the
shillings, the rounds will take care of themselves.—
He c inceived a reduction in the labour of those °di-
cers, a sufficient calm for reducing their salaries,
And if twelve hoer. a day were p4id by /4000 a
year, he thought six hours a day sufficiently remune;
rated by £3OOO.
Mr. BROUGHAM hoped, that the good reasons
adduced by his Honourable Friend for reducing the
salaries of the Secretaries of the Admiralty, would
operate on Gentlemen opposite. The House were
called upon to soppert those reasons, particularly 'in
matters like the present, which involved a principle
of economy, and were important in proportion as
their amount seemed trifling. He was induced to
offer himself to the attention of the House, in con-
seqtteoce of what fell on a former night front the
Nuide Lord *opposite, who, in allusion to the pro-
posed increase of salaries, requested the House to
suspend their judgments. He had now heard the
Noble Lord's defence--he had heard his explanation,
not on this particular subject only, but on other
matters of retrenchment; but never was 'defence
more lame and impotent. He did not know whe-
ther the Noble Lord would give him credit for his
assertion, but he would assure him, that he had
listened with impatience for a successful defence of
this measure ;—he was anxious to learn how the
matter could be nolaimad away, for, indeed, a
defence was not to be expected. An explanation
was; however, to be looked for, particularly since
the decision of Monday, and an assurance, that this
increase of salary was not intended as permanent.—
Bat no such explanation bad been given, and the
measure was left by the Noble Lord, exactly as he
found it, and the House were told of the necessity of
raising the salaries of two particular officers, at a
time when the general distress of the Country required
the general,diminution of all. He would not follow
the Noble Lord through the system of retrenchment
in which the Ministers were lately employing them-
selves, because at another time it would come in de-.
tail before the House. But in the estimate given by
the Noble Lord,' vague as it must necessarily be, be-
cause retrenchment is a system at which the Noble
Lord and his colleagues are as yet very inexpert—
( Hear) —it is a new line of operation—( Mew).—
, In this vague estimate there were some points that
deserved a few observations. The Noble Lord com-
menced that estimate with the Secretary of War's
10flize, and informed the House, that in that depart-
ment there was a diminution of seven officers, besides
is few clerks; but under that head he had expected
to have heard of a much more considerable reduc-
tion. The third Secretary was created for the war,
and when that place was on a former occasion put in
jeopardy in that House, by a motion from an Ho-
. nourable Friend of his, it bad been argued from the
opposite beaches." What, will you destroy this of-

• • „ .
Nee while the cnnntry is
,plunged in war; sehlle an'
extreme necessity exists for its cositinuaice s wink we
have occasion to equip and send out ri,lett;fluits
This argument was Rot toshe cnntrad:cted, and the,
motion was rejected, under the impression, that it.
be renewed under snore favourable circumstances.—
It was, however, to have been expected that in the'
Noble Lord's budget of retrenchment, that office
would have appeared most promineni, that the de-
partment Mould have been,cnt,Oif root and branch ;
bht instead of that the Nook Lord suffices him ;ell'
by removing seven officers, and about 100 of the in-
ferior clerks. In the department of the Admiralty,
several clerks have been removed ;- and the Noble
Lord, as if to amuse the House by high-sounding
numbers, informed them that 4000 officers were re-'

Juced, forming a saving to the co-entry of between
four and £500,000 a-year. This undaubtedly looked
like business; but what is the realty ?. It was only
depriving so many artificers of their usual employ-
ments, saving to the country their daily wages,
striking off the really useful men, the gangs of work-
men, and to these might as well have been added,
alt the soldicrs and sailors dismi.se,l the service; and
the Noble Lord and his colleagues trii.,thr just as well.
from thti; numbers, hav: taken credit for a marked
spirit of economy. Bet these men were in reality re-
duced, because the war was over, and there was no
work for them. It was impossible to keep them eat-
ing blocks, forging anchors, and twisting cables—so,
brit,; useless, tll4 were driven from their employment t.
and each ate the jeer: who the House were told had
been reduced in tine spirit of economy—(Hear.)—
This accusation, therefore, still results against the
Ministry ; not that, like some of their predecessors,
they pulled down with one hand while they raised
with the other; but that, without attempting to ex-
crciie the leasslitninution, they raised up on ad sides,
with the most lavish profusion, and, to use a com-
mon pi rase, attempted to sell the House with a thew
of economy.—Clfear, hear.)—The neit item was the
Commissariat ; but it should be remembered that the
*clerks diminished in that department had been em-
ploed in the Peninsula, and the war being termina-
ted, there could be found no occasion for retaining
them : so that all the economy which had as yet been
practised, consisted in the reduction of some twenty
clerks, and about forty or £50,000. He would now
iirer to the attempt made to increase the salaries
of two officers during a time of profound peace.—
It was then a question for the House to consider,
whether Mr. Croker should receive £1,090 a year
in addition to his former £4,000, and Mr. Barrow
£5OO a year in addition to his £1,500. On this
point the Government were put on their defence,
and in attempting it, they could not pretend to urge,
that the
_expense of living had lately increased..'
On the contrary, it was a 'well Ewan) tact that it
bad fallen from forty to fifty per cent. nor was it
ever said that this increase was intended to be tem.
pgrary. But even supposing that the expense of
living had not decreased, why should Mr. Croker be
better off than Sir Evan Nepean, who was Secretary
of the Admiralty before him ? To Sir Evan Nepean
were directed all those splendid dispatches at the early
',art of the war, when the repeated triumphs of our
navy proved how well that department had bees ad-
ministered. Sir Evan, at that period, was hardly
able to enjoy even the necessary rest. His labour
w..s sufficient, to use the words of the Hutt. Gentle•
man-opposite ( Mr. Rob i nsun ) to a b,.0 Lb the Anergies
of both mind and body. If, the-t, the former salary
was enough for him during the active labour of war,
why was it not sufficient for Mr. Croker during the
time of profound peace ? (Hear, hear.) It was
time enough to think of raising. Mr. Crokeres salary
when his expense of living was increased ; but to put
at present one thousand pounds a year into Mr.
Croker's pocket, taken from the pockets of the peo.
pie, was a scandalous and profligate waste of public
money, a most profligate and infamous job—(boar)
which every Ale in the country, who paid taxes, should
meet with punishment, at least with censure. In
thus expressing his sentiments, he meant no personal
disrespect to the Gentlemen concerned; he did not
mean the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble
Lord, but the two Officers, because no charge had
been brought against them. The Noble Lord had
exculpated the Honourable Gentleman on the floor
(Mr. Croker) from any participation in this job, and
even Mentioned his issivililagaus to aCcept of the in-
crease. —(A 1444).-41e, however, could have wished
'that Honourable Gentleman to have been a little
more resolute, and had gone a step further, by re•
faring it altogether 1 Mr. Barrow stands, however, in
a different state. For that Gentleman he entertained
the highest respect, as one possessed of many great
and valuable accomplishments; but the office of
that Gentleman Was altogether unnecessary. It was
created for the war, in Earl Spencer's Administra-
tion, and if it did not terminate on the cessation of
hostilities, it at least should receive no increase
of salary. The severity of employing Gentlemen
in official situations, and subsequently depriving them
of those places when they cannot betake themselves
to any other line of life, has been dwelt on, but this
argument, however it might apply in an extreme case
to Mr. Barrow, (who, however, would, on retiring,
be entitled to a pension), yet could not refer in any
degree to Mr. Croker, whose office was merely poli-
tical, and if his friends went out to-morrow, Mr.
Croker would have no claim to his salary. He con-
tended that the proposed augmentation should not
be neglected, in consequence of its apparent unim-
portance ; for by a reference to the estimates on the
table, this increase to Mr. Croker for doing no duty,
amounted to half the entire sum voted to the widows
and orphans of those gallant men who fought our
battles, and secured our independence. One thousand
pounds a-year was to be given to Mr. Croker, whose
battles and services were confined to that House, and

as a proof of Court favour.--(Hear, hear, hear).
He trusted the House would reprobate such an at-
tempt, not because it was severe on many an honest
man to contribute his share—not because extents in.
aid were issued to wring a few shillings from unfor-
tunate wretches, who were compelled to sell their
furniture to pay them—but, because the object was
small, atuj would serve as a proof to the country that
the House of Commons would guard their rislits,
and not permit any greater extravagance. (Hear;
hear.) The country, suns the vote of Monday night,
looked to the House with gratitude ; he trusted that
they would fulfil the further hopes (4f the people.—
It was better than raising monampnts to the Stuarts,
and paying honours. to the *tiros of legitimacy ; it

• • I

would. be mad totter, if, instead.of .raising Melnik
ments to that family, they would profit by,their
ample., Their fall had been occasi.uted by disregard.
ingthc voice,of the people ; but they had some escuse
in their religious prejudices and scruples; , But what
escuses had those who find on such scruples— in
whom one vice followed another—ertio collets
ted about them miqines as proflifate at them:elves.
who suffered their gaols to remain crowded with un.
happy wretches, lingering in the horrors of uacer.
tainty, and yet not tarn from their scenes of vice to
cast one thought on their miseries. .Such persons
surrounded, as in such cases they mist he, by met.
,cenarrtroops, sent down to that House, r-tresting
them to join is their profligacy. (Load chgring from
the oitlsositi4n.)
Mr. PZEL said, he did not rise to pinking the
discussion as to whether the increase of the 'darks
of the Secretaries to the Admiralty was or was net
justifiable, but to express his opinion that there must
be a general feeling of i,idignattion—( Ihro vides.
and inn:sant cheering hum forth front all parer of rho
haute.)—yes, he mutt repeat, a general feeling of
indignation at the unfounded charg,s of the Hon.
Gentleman, the unjust imputations he had raised,
and the unfair insinuations he had thrown out on ob.

jects to which the question before the House had no
relation. Respecting the increase of salary, he could
assure the House, tnat it was totally contrary to the
wishes of his Right Henotirable Friend that the
increase was attached to his office.— (Laueeke, aged
sreties of Hear, hear.) It w AT. most unjust to charge
this increase upon Ministers as a scandal U. job, on
the consideration of Court favouritism. —(Hers the
shout: were renewed : Mr. Peel made several, attenitsts to
continue his :teeth, ht was obliged to desist till Mt cries of
hear, hear, had subsided.) After some comments on
the introductory part of the speech of Mr. Brougham,
in which he denied that any retrenchments had been
made, he contended that it would have been intmitaly
more proper to have postponed the discussion till the
Estimates were prepared. Nothing could be more
invidious and unjust than the comparison between
these salaries and the widows' pensions. It was im-
possible to estimate by any pecuniary situation, the
value. of the military and civil services of dill rent
persons. The very extent of the milit try service
made it impossible to apportion to the relatives ti it
due reward; and should their little pensions be a
ground on which the salaries of the high civil ser-
vants of the public should be estimated ? The cam-
parison • of another Honourable Gentlem to betwean
twelve hours' labour and six, might he very well ac-
cording to the rule of three; but would any Gen Le-
man admit that the criterion of salary of a puelic
officer was to be the number of hours he was en.
, ployed ? He weat. on to shew that the Order in
Council of Juoe lost was necessary to revoke that of
1802, and contended, that the question whether it
was expedient that the salaries of public officers in
time of peace should be lowered, was not involved by
this Order in Council, as the principle had only been
acted upon in the case of the Admiralty. There was
, no principle more injurious than to reduce salaries so
as to confine the tenure of•public places of trust and
confidence only to persons of independent fortune.
Gentlemen who exerted their talents, AnJ gave tip
their time to the public service, naturally lo• tied for-
ward to the means of acquiring an nviepreleitcy in
return, and it WAS preposterous to deny that suet) es. .
pectotions were unfair or unreasonable. ,
Mr. TLERNEY said, that a more ezrraordinar
speech than that of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh)
had never been heard within the w ills of Pat lionmt,
and never had any speech obtained a more excroordi.
nary reception. He had commenced with vehemently
deprecating all clamour, with his usual design of es-
citing it among his friends: the purpose, however,
had completely failed, for while the Noele Lord was
clamouring against clamour, the Gentlerhen who sat
near him observed a most melancholy and dishearten.
iog silence—(Hear)—The silence was most profound,
and gave a fine opportunity for the display of the
musical tones of his Lordship's voice. Thus defeated
by his own partizans, the Noble Lord then threw
himself upon his character: no man, he hoped, would
refuse to give him credit for a sincere and entices
disposition to promote the utmost economy—but still
the same awful silence was preserved. He (Mr.
Tierney) had seen unfortunate persons on their trial
at the Old Bailey, and the Noble Lord's situation
was scarcely less deplorable or pitiable —(Hear and
laughter).—The • poor culprit, driven to his de.
fence, called witnesses to character—so did the
Noble Lord, but none of them answered—(Hear.)
His next step still kept up the parallel t for in• the
extremity of his case he had proceeded to read a long
paper, not having any Counsel to assist (as was most
unhappily too often the situation of the Noble Lord),
in which he endeavoured to sliew, in the teeth of all
the evidence, not only that he was not guilty, but that
he was the most ill-used than that had ever appeared
at the bar—(Coatieued laughter). As for ec moiny,
the Noble Lord asserted in his paper that it bad been.
the object of his life; that he had lived under varieus
masters in different places, giving universal satisfac-
tion, and evincing an unceasing anxiety to save to tee
uttermost farthing. Next he set forth the expenses
he had spared his employers, and those that he had
inteuded to have spared them, if he had been allowed
to continue is, service; and it could not be denied that
the Noble Lord heti 'never hewn any great anxiety
to quit a good place in which he was once firmly
seated.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Tim prisoner at
the Old Bailey usually followed his assertions with a
statement of facts, most .probably false; and ihe
Noble Lord had entered into a detail most certainly -
incomprehensible, concluding with the large promises
of future good behaviour, customary with persons in
the deplorable situation of laving put upon their
(Hear, hear.)—Proceeding more seriously to the sub.
Ject of debate, he begged to state that at the peace of
Amiens, contrary to the assertions of some Hottotirahla
Gentlemen) Sir E. Nepean had received only re3.e)o
a year, with perfect satisfaction; and bad he wished
to augment it, he must have removed the then net
Lord of the Admiralty, Earl St. Vincent, who would
never have given his consent, though the Noble Lfocl
now holding that high station felt no Auer' difficulty.
Soou afterwards the Board of Naval liquify was
appointed, and it was followed by the con nissioii of
Revision, instituted for the express purpose of undoing
what their predecessors had done: that conmessi.:a
was us fact a mere party manceuvre to defect ACM•
icaorurna:dwwhehnitomzorrdsegoutldtchlUeln;
drairViearaitikewarisatde) Out.