Star.
London, England, 1821-05-24 00:00:00

away of human life, was not only bound to shew the 1
expediency, but the absolute justice and necessity of
the punishment. The House ought to know, that,
under the eye of the Police, haunts of robbers were
permitted to exist, for the absurd purpose of allow-
ing the officers where to look for offenders. He went
to a den of this kind, where there were between 30
and 40 boys, who avowed their occupation, and in a
few months after, no less than four boys were exe-
tilted out of that very den.
Mr. NOLAN thought the House should consider
bow far it would be proper to adopt the pre3eut Bill.
Whether the present Police were effective or not, was
a question which would come before the House better,
and more conveniently, when the Report of the Pri-
sons Committee came under the consideration of the
House. With respect to the present Bill, he could
not distinguish why the punishment of death should
be attached to the forgery of a one pound note, whilst
'other forgeries were to have a punishment of so much
lighter nature attached to them. Where was the com-
parison, he would ask, between such a forgery, and
the to, gery of a will, which reduced an innocent
family to beggary ?—or the forgery of an arsonity
deed, which perhaps deprived an industrions indivi-
dual of the hard earnings of his youth, the whole pro-
vision which he had made for the exigencies of his
old age? As to the instance of the youth who went
home and committed a forgery, immediately after
seeing an execution, insanity was an excuse for any
act, however extravagant ; and surely nothing but
insanity could have operated on that unfortunate in-
dividual, who, immediately after witnessing the heavy
penalty which the crime entailed upon those who
were guilty of it, went home, and, braving the pe-
nalty, committed the offence—(Hear, hear).—He
contended, that the privilege of the Jury to recom-
mend to mercy, and the invariable attention paid by
the Crown to such recommendation, relieved Juries
from all difficulties on the subject of their consciences,
and ope•ated to temper the severity of the law.
Mr. WYNN was in favour of the Bill. It was not
sufficient tor any Gentleman to say, that he did not
believe clime would be diminished by the proposed
alteialion. If there wis any one who doubted that
capital punishment was absolutely necessary in this
case, it should be abolished. 1k defended the recom-
mendation that the forgery of Baak of England notes
should be punished with death in the first instance,
on the ground that they were a property differing
from all other I.roperty. Parliament had made these
notes a legal tene.er, and by law the Public were
obliged to take them. Under these circumstances,
Parliarnew were hound to protect the Public, and to
place Bank of England notes on the same footing as
the coin of the realm, which it was death to imitate.

Mr. COURTENAY •Asas in favour of the Bill going
through the f resent stage. He believed, in giving
such a vote, he should go with public opinion. He
defended the conduct of the Committee appointed to
isqui:e into the present state of the Criminal Code.
That Committee had been censured for not calling
the Judges before them, and examining those Learned
Persons ; but he must confess, *.at it appeared to him
as objectionable to call before them those Learned
Persons, whose duty it was to dispense the laws, as
to ask them their opinion of those laws.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY agreed that
it must be the wish of every humane man, in these
enlightened days, to reduce, as far as possibly we
could, the punishment of death for offences; and he
thought the House had shewn its desire to do so ;
but he trusted the House would not be lcd aside by
its philanthropy on this occasion, to do an injury
to the Public. Now, looking to the present Bills,
and to-their provisions, he feared of their efficacy ;
for, on enquiry, it would be found that in places
where the capital punishment had been most adhered
to, the commission of the crime had been the less
frequent; whilst, on the contrary, since the Bank of
England had held in their hands a power of taking
persons and trying them for the minor offence, crime,
as regarded the forgery of Bank-notes, had very
much encreased. Upon this principle he should op-
pose the Bill.
Mr. NVILBERFORCE was anxious now to say a
few words in favour of this Bill, lest it should unfor-
tunately be lost, and lie not have an opportunity of
declaiing his approval of it. He thought the Bill
ought to go to a Committee, to shew to the Public
that the subject had undergone the fullest discussion
before it was rejected, if rejected it should ulti-
mately be; and on these grounds he must conjure
the [louse not to refuse going into a Committee. As
to the great number of forgeries of Bank-notes, it
should be taken into consideration how great a num-
ber were in circulation, and with what facility they
might be imitated.
Some conversation then took place on the right of
Sir James Mackintosh to reply to the arguments of
those who had opposed the Bill, between the Marquis
of LONDONDERRY, Mr. TIERNEY, Mr. WINN, and
Mr. BATIIURST.

Sir J A MES M ACKINTOSH ultimately addressed
the House. Had he not considered that silence on
his part would look like disrespect to the House,
be would most willingly have left this question on
the speech of the Honourable Member for Wey-
mouth, which was one of the most luminous and
eloquent it had ever been his good fortupe to hear
delivered by any Member of that House. The Ho-
nourable Member then proceeded to defend the Bill,
and contended that severity of punishment operated
to prevent prosecution; and that the House, in
legislating on the Bankrupt Laws, last Session,
legislated on that principle. It appeared, by
the evidence of several eminent Bankers in London,
that, in their opinion, a great majority of eases of
private forgery escaped unpunished, and that this re-
luctance to prosecute arose from the severity of pu-
nishment. Some Hon. Members had urged the ne-
cessity of improvement of secondary punishment ;
but this was, in fact, to begin at the wrong end. We
should commence by the reduction of capital punish-
ments, and the improvement of secondary punish-
ments would follow. As to the Bill going to a Corn II
-
mince, was it necessary to inform the Noble Marquis
oppo.ite, that his permitting the Bill to go to the
Committee would not prevent his moving the inser-
tion or omission of any douse he chose relative to the
forgery of wills, or any other subject he might think
proper? In the case of the public forger, the forger
VIAS wholly unknown to the prosecutor, and no re-
luctance to prosecute could exist. The execution of
such men could not be unpopular. The Noble Lord
bad confoundcd two distinct uffences,rforgery and

littering; and to remove that confusion was one of
the objects of the Bill. By the Bill, the distinction
between the casual and the professed utterer would
be clearly drawn. The House loal heard nothing of
the opinion of the Noble Lord as to the other Bills.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected to the
Bill, because the punishment of death bad been found
effectual to check the offence.—The House dibided :
For the Original Motion - - - lln
For the Amendment - 74
Majority for the Committee —44
On the return of strangers to the Gallery, the House
was in a Committee on the Bill.—Report on Friday.
The Committees on the Dwelling House Robbery Bill, and
the Navigable Rivers Robbery Bill, were postponed to Friday.
The other Orders were then disposed of, and the House ad-
journed at a Quarter past Two o'Clock.

was more calculated! to excite alarm than to witness.
the earnestness with which the slaves of power sought
to put down the Liberty of the Press, the only secu-
rity of our dearest rights. For this purpose the sword
had at one time been employed, and the instrument
now was a select body of persons falsely calling
themselves a Constitutional Society—(eippiause).—
He should have thought that the Government might
have been satisfied with the unconstitutional powers
exercised by the Attorney-General, without calling
in the aid of a miscalled Constitutional Association,
composed of men who were ready to do that which
the forbearance of the Law Officers of the Crown de-
clined to undertake—(Cheers). The Hon. Baronet
then commented on the connection which a distin-
guished military leader had with the Society in
question. That gallant Officer ought to recollect
that he owed his preent elevation to the courage and
the purse of the People—(Loud applause). It was,
however, peculiarly uafortunate that under some cir-
cumstances the very, virtues of the people were turned
against themselves. This must always happen, while
a portion of the people exercised an unconstitutional
controul in the character of a standing army—(Ap-
p/arise). This select body had no interest in common
with their fellow men, and they were held completeiy
distinct from them. However, he must congratu-
late the regular troops and the country, that the
atrocities at Manchester could not be imputed to
them. They were free from that foul disgrace. Ile
hoped that those atrocities would never be forgotten
—([.end cries of Never, never!)—and he did lot de-
spair of living to see the day when justice would
be done to those who had been maimed, mutilated, i
and massacred on the too memorable Ifith of August
—(Continued cheers, and cries 9f" We hope you will.")
So atrocious were those acts, that Ministers had not I
dared to avow them, and they found it necessary to
resort to false pretences, and charge the People with
having been guilty of the greatest excesses, in order,
to reconcile the public mind to the enormities of their
own blood-thirsty practices. When all their charges
against the People turned out to be without founda-
tion, they only sealed a verdict against themselves—
: a verdict which was now upon record, and which no-
Lthing could erase. It was in vain that a Noble Lord
attempted in the House of Commons to account for
the atrocities at Manchester, by stating that stones
had been flung at the Yeomanry, and that some of
them had been knocked down. These statements
were found to be entirely groundless, and one knew
not in what light to con,ider them when they were
made in such a place, and• under such circumstances.
The Noble Lord surely must have been under some
peculiar influence when he delivered himself so con-
fidently on the subject. Well might be said—

-11 Whatsoever cunning fiend it was
" That wrought upon thee so preposterously;

" If that same demon that hath gull'd thee thus
Should, with his lion gait, walk the whole world,
" He might return to vasty Tartar back,
" And tell the legions I can never win
" A soul so easy as that Englishman's !"
" Irishman's," he should rather say—( Cheers and
laughter).—Yet he had no doubt that the same ears
which listened to those statements, would listen to
any others equally groundless, which the Noble Lord
might think proper to make, provided the object was
for the encroachment on our few remaining rights.
At Manchester, the last act of violence was commit-
ted against the People, by a Borou4mongering
Faction— ( Applause ).—The real crime/of the Re-
formers was, that they had set themselves in opposi-
tion to that Faction. Had they gone on with Lud-
diteism, the offence would have been borne ; but,
because they demanded their rights by attacking the
Oligarchy in the House of Commons, they were consi-
dered to be guilty of the crime of High Treason (Cheers).
It was true, that as yet it had nut been made high
treason for the people to petition the House of Com-
mons for the restoration of their rights, but it was
probable that it soon would be. Yet the Ministers
knew very well that the people had no treasonable
views. The people respected the power and prero-
gatives which were vested in the King, and their only
object was that they should exercise a fair controul
over them by their Representatives in Parliament.
The Honourable Baronet concluded some further
observations, by urging the necessity of Reformers
uniting together for the one grand object they had in
view, sinking all minor differences. He ssas con-
vinced that they could bring such force to bear on
the House of Commons, as must compel the Mem-
bers of it to listen to their demands, however unwil-
ling they might be to give an ear to them.--[The
Honourable Baronet was loudly cheered for some
moments after he had sat down.]—Sir Francis then
proposed—

" The memory of our defenceless and unfortunate fellow-
subjects, men, women, and children, who were slaughtered at
Ptlanchester on the 16th of August, 1819."
This toast was drank in solemn silence.
The Hon. DOUGLAS KINNAIRD then pronounced a
high eulogy on the merits of Mr. Hobhouse, and
proposed his health in the following terms:-
0 The able and intrepid opposer of a Boroughmongering Oli-
garchy—the man who dares to attack apostacy, though sheltered
by power—John Cam Hobhoute, Esq."
Mr. Hoamouse came forward to return thanks for

the honour done him. His sense of the compliment
was stronger than that of the Hon. Baronet, in pro-
portion as his claims upon the Meeting were less con-
siderable. He was bound to thank them all for their
notice of him, but particularly his Hon. Friend who
had proposed his health. He had to complain, how-
ever, that his name was introduced in too flattering
terms. But this was not the first time he had expe-
rienced the kindness of the people of Westminster.—
Indeed, he might almost say he was spoiled by their
over-indulgence—(Hear, hear).—Some time had now
elapsed since their suffrages had sent him into Parlia-
ment. 'ln Parliament he was coadjutor to the Hon.
Baronet—his election was brought about under his
Auspices, but it was for the Electors to say whether he
(Mr. H.) had fulfilled the expectations which were en-
tertained of him before he became their Representative.
He, at least, had never sinned wilfully against his
leaky ; if he was found wanting, it was not from lack
of teal to the great cause, or devotion to their inte-
rests, but from the absence of those talents, perhaps,'
and that ability, which were as often turned against
liberty as in favour of it—(Loud applause).—}lrs task
was one of responsibility—yet, under other circum-
stances it would have been a more difficult one.—
Knowing the character of the people who had sent
him—conscious that his weak efforis for their Cathit

in that ••••." Assembly would- be tried by dI-.cri•
minating and candid judges, he was more at ease-..
he did his best, and he always found his constituent*
ready to second his humble exertions—(Applause).—
He was also assisted by the kind and philosophizing,
friend by his side—(Hear)—a friend ever ready to
point him out the way to gain the esteem of good-
men, if he had but the courage to follow it—(Hear).
He had the satisfaction, too, of receiving aid from
very many Memhei.s of the House, who not from
party motives (for no good was ever done by party),
but from individual feelings, joined the ranks, and
advocated the cause of the people. Ile could say with
pride and pleasure, that during the last Session there-,
were many—very many of that class of Gentlemen,
who shewed all possible zeal for the people, and did
all that could be expected from them. Indeed, there
were at this moment some of them in the room, tee
whose names he hoped an opportunity wonted he
given the Electors of testifying their gratitude be-
fore they departed—(Loud and repeated applause),—
And, whilst upon this topic, he would just add, that
he could name several Noblemen and Gentlemeh
who expressed to him their regret at not being pre-
sent on this occasion to meet the Electors. Amongst
others, he would mention a friend to his country,
and one who, in the late transactions connected with
the Queen, made no small figure—he meant Dr.
Lushington—(Loud cheers).—Dr. Lushington stated,
in his letter, that he would feel great pleasure ?Is
meeting the Electors of Westminster, esteeming as he '
did their exertions in favour of Reform, and admiring
as he did the example which they had set the whole
country; but that he was obliged to absent himself
by the circumstance of his being compelled to attend
the debate on the Criminal Laws to-night in the
House of Commons. Another of these Gentlemen
was Mr. Lennard—(Hear, hear)—a contemporary of
his own—a man who, in his late efforts to obtain a,
restoration of the People's rights, haal laid a ground
of no small claim to their gratitude; he also ex-
pressed a wish to meet his brother Electors, but was
prevented by unavoidable circumstances. He had
also a letter from Lord Nugent—(Hear, hear)—who
also expressed his regret at being obliged to attend
in his place in the House, having given notice of a
motion, some time ago, which was to come on to.
night. e could not forget Mr. Bennett too—(Hear,
hear)—who apologized for his absence, being equally
anxious to meet the Electors of Westminster on this
great occasion. The cause, then, did not want friends,
and whatever was lost by the
-remissness of its sup-
porters was sure to be made up by its opponents' vices.
Some of its opposers were no inconsiderable allies.
Great events had happened since they last met; but
what had they proved ? One, and only one thing—
the crying necessity of Parliamentary Reform. They
proved that, without Reform, the country could not
be well governed. No justice was to be expected,
.unless the People were well represented—(Hear). He
would not, however, go into the subject, as it had
been already so largely discussed by the Honourable
Baronet; all he would say was, that they would ever
find him a zealous advocate in the great cause, and
that he would ever lend his aid to its furtherance, so
long as he had a seat in Parliament, or influence any
where else—(Hear). lie wished, however, to call their
attention to the actual state which we were now in.
The whole counti y was complaining, but they knew
not where to a,k. for relief. Yet our rulers told us
we were doing very well—(A laugh). They pointed
out instances of success here and there, and then
said, " Oh, it is impassible but yon must be in good
case." This Sort of comfort was like that which a
certain Doctor Faye his patient. " Doctor," said the
patient, .4 I don t sleep."--" I'm glad of it," says the
Doctor, " it is a good symptom." " But then I am fe-
verish." "The best thing in the world, and is just what
might be expected at this stage of the disorder."—(.4
laugh). So, like the patient, we were dying of ten thou- •
sand good symptoms !—(Laughter). But the political
doctors would not give the People the prescription
which their case wanted—which they had been asking
for the last thirty years. They knew that they would
then be made to "wince;" indeed they could not
relieve the People of their burthens unless they re-
lieved themselves of some of their emoluments--
(4pplause).—lii one respect, however, the House of
Commons did that which was recommended to the
old Parliaments. In an old book called the Mill-our
of Justices, a work to which the Hon. Baronet often
had occasion to allude, it was laid down that Parlia-
ment ought to " meet only for the salvation of the
souls of trespassers"—(4 laugh).—Now it would seem
that this was the very object tOr which our Parlia-
ments did meet—for they always saved the trespassers
at the expense of the condemnation of the whole nation
besides--(Hear' hear).—lt was impossible for any
one, not actually a prophet, to foretell, when Parlia.
ment met this year, that the whole People of Eng-
land would be found to be in the wrong, and that
none were right but those few trading politicians
who opposed the will of the People—(Vicar, hear).-....
But Parliament, determined to be true to itself, found
that things were so—they absolved the trespassers,
and in every respect proved themselves a salutary
and opportune Assembly—(lkar). Indeed, so great
was the good-nature of the Assembly to which they
had sent him (Mr. Hobhouse), that there was no sin
which did not find a justification theme. He would
not detain them further, knowing that they would be
addressed by other Gentlemen in the course of the
evening, than to say, that the vision of those Gentle-
men must be strange indeed, who, amid the general
distress, could imagine that there was any necessity
for propping up the power of the Attorney-General
—(Hear). It was often said that the Attorney-Ge.
neral was of himself powerful ; or that, if he wanted
any aid, there were imps at hand, little individuals
ready to afford it, who must be called the devils of
the Attorney-General—(Loud laughing). But was
this not eaougf Should Lords, nay Ladies too-_
(Hear)—stand forth, ambitious, it would seem, of
being called the Attorney-General's suit-devils?—
(Laughing). Their patriotism though got the upper
hand. These were the folks to distinguish between
the liberty and licentiousness of the Press, as if the
Attorney-General, whose trade it was to attend to
these matters, did not see the distinction— (Hens).—
He (Mr. Hobhouse) had in his hand a list of some ci:
these worthies. Amongst them he noticed a Sir delta
Sewell, Alderman ltothwell, Sir Thomas Lt thbridge,
whose' haisistood on end' on a late occasion—(Lough.
ter)—and other high and mighty names—worthy of
uetng placarded at Charing.cross, Ludgate-hilt,
lemple-bar, Paul's Cross, and every other Cross or