Star.
London, England, 1817-03-12 00:00:00

cemstances of•the present time certainly bag no ana-
logy to those of 1794—restored to peace after a long
and unexampled sanguinary war, we had now no
enemy to contend with. We were in profound peace
with respect to our foreign concerns, and certainly
had no danger to dread from abroad, the only enemy
at home cr abroad being the feelings of the people;
and were those feelings really an enemy ?—(Meor,
hear, hear.) Now his Noble Friend had voted against
the Suspension on these grounds, and certainly he was
justified iu so doing. The Noble Lord, whom I.e
was happy to call his Friend (Lord Lauderdale),
had expressed his regret at differing with those with
whom he generally acted. He (Lord Holland)
always heard the speeches of his Noble Friend with
pleasure, when he considered the luminous and elo-
quent manner in which they were delivered. He did
not; ;iowever, agree with his Noble Friend respect-
ing the increase of the influence of the Crown being
confined to the mass of the people. If the Crown
actually had so much influence out of the House,
that influence was of necessity exercised in the Hong
for the most obvious reasons. Nor did he conceive
the debt of the country to be the principal evil, be-
cause he thought the unconstitutional standing army,
the unnecessary extravagant expenditure of the public
money, &c. were equally bad. He did not concur
in the comparison made between the period of Queen
Anne's reign and the present, respecting the influ-
ence of the Crown, because it should be remembered
two Unions had taken place since that, and besides
the tolonial Department had increased to such an
extent as, in the opinion of the Noble Earl at the
head of the Treasury, to requiie the services of a
third Secretary of State. And here, when speaking
of the Secretary of State, he could nut help noticing
the opinion of the Noble Earl. He had said the bu-
siness of the State could not be conducted without
this Secretary. Surely the duties of that office could
not be so highly imptirtant or laborious, when it was
recollected that Lord Melville had been both Pre-
sident of the Board of Controul and Secretary at
War (as the office was then called) at one time.—
But reasoning from what the Noble Earl old, one
was disposed to think the time of peace was more la-
borious than a state of war. Such a conclusion was
obviously absurd, but however absurd, it still natu-
rally followed from what had been said by the Noble
Earl. He had not the experience of the Noble Earl
respecting the Administration of Public Affairs, but
he could say, nevertheless, that it was infinitely bet-
ter to go on with two Secretaries than three, for he
knew enough of public business to be able to say,
that the multiplicity of offices impeded that busioes.s
Nor was this his own opinion only, for in support of
it, he had the authority of the House of Commons,
who had declared two to be sufficient. It was said
that there were three Secretaries before the American
War. Yes ! and much good indeed did they do to
the country I Parliament afterwards showed their
sense of this by the vote he had just alluded to. He
would further say, (hat certainly there was no mea-
sure of economy which should be overlooked. Why
had Ministers not more early adopted these measures
which they promised to do? Why had they allowed
the last year to elapse without doing them? Much was
now said respecting what they were ping to do; but
why had they so long put off any Retrenchments ? He
believed that whatever had taken place, had been ow.
in g solely to the voice of the Country, to the firmness
oithe People, and their steady efforts in petitioning.
The truth of this was abundantly evident to the most
superficial observer. It was said that inquiries re-
specting economy were going on in another House,
and therefore it was an improper time to propose
diem here. He thought differently, for there never
could be a more proper, never a more suitable period,
for considering the necessity of retrenchments than
the present. Nick-names had been frequently given
to motions, as they were frequently called abstract
and speculative by those who did not much like them.
Committees in another House had not unfrequently
been employed as means for evading economy. Much
bad been said respecting the splendour of the Crown
being maintained. This as ceitainly proper; btu
that splendour ought to be accommodated to the state
of the times and the finances of. the country, other.
wise it was falsely called splodour. It was an invi-
dious task, he thought, to call on "individuals toimake
saciifies s. He considered' what had been said re-
speaangrpensions to be an a4eirtue gacetios—(Hear.)
We'fiaif,both sinecures and pensions in the country.
Inntimerable were the instances of pe:,sions being
granted by Parliament ,on Messages being sent down.
from the Crown. There was a Noble Earl in the
House (Lord Chatham) who received one for the
meritorious services rendered to the country by his
illustrious father. Mr. Pitt's debts had been paid by
Parliament. Though he differed in politics from that
statesman, he could not but declare his conviction of
his being a most disinterested character. Mr. Pace-
eal's family had also received a pension. He did not
mean any thing invidious by thus selecting names,,
but he considered' as both sinecures and pensions wee
given, their Lordships might see it was a proper sub-
ject for them to consider whether they might not at
least strike off one of these. With respect to sinecures
being a reward for services, he could only say they
were liable to great abuses and to much objection.-1
Pensions might be called " the arrow flying by dab'
while Sinecures were " the pestilence walking by'
night." (Mar, hear.) The people had expressed
their opinion of the impropriety of sinecures being
given, and certainly that opinion was entitled to the
serious attention of their Lordships. Much better
would it be for their Lordships to at once listen to
the voice of the people, than allow the people to ex-
tort from .them little by little. Much better it would
be at once to coccede manfully what was claimed,
than to be obliged afterwards to do it. His Lord-
ship concluded by giving his support to the Resolu-
tion of his Noble Friend, which be hoped the House
would accede to. •
The previous qtiestion was negatived, and the
question was then put on Earl Grosvenor's Resole-
tom."' Contents, s—Not Contents 45.-Majority
against the Motion, 40.—Adjourned..
HOUSE OF COMMON/.
General THORNTON Ppitiopned Ida motion on the subject of
Assessed lases rad by Absentees, wideb stood for tomorrow,
till the in* imam.
Mr. DICICENaOId gave, narks. that, be would ma Tuesday,
next, move for kave to firing to a Eill, to enable btaitheruse Is
Quarter Sessions to regulate the Salaries and Fees of Clerks of ale
Yeats.
tar. Jonmson,- from the Mica of the. Ctiletflorearty tit Pitt
land, presented an monis oi tM number of mules snide% it

which mgt. of Westin to jive &tin op, Lad beta *coed on
.be Collectors.

.Mr. LUEHINOTON presented an Adkoent of the number of
prosecutlens under the Lottery Act. during the tact ts mouths.
Mr. BROODEN brought up the Report of the ludernaity Bill,
which was received. and the Bill was ordered to be r:ad a third
tinie to•morrow.

A Petition walpretented from the Connth4oners and Gover-
nors of he York Lunatic Aly'utu, praying to be exempted front
certain provisions contained to the Bill for regulating %lad houses,
110 W before the House.

The Saving Dint Dili was, on the motion of Mt. ROTE, eons-
nti•ted for kl.nsday seunight.

MITION FOR IREFARV.
A Petition was presented from the county of Kent,
praying for Parliamentary Reform.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, this Petition he
was ready to allow, was agreed to at a meeting of
several Freeholders, but it was signed only by the
High Sheriff for the body. Now he submitted, that
by the established rule of the Heu.e, it could only be
considered as the petition of the person who Signed it.
The SPEAKER said, there were but two ways
of signing' petitions. If from bodies corporate their
seal was attached, otherwise it could only be received
as the petition of the person who signed it.
Sir W. GEARY said, the petition was signed for
the body present, and at their desire, by the Sheriff.
Mr. CALCRAFI' said, the meeting at which this
petition was adopted was flighty respectable and, nu.
merous, and was signed by the High Sheriff at the
request of the meeting.
The petition was then read by the Clerk.
Sir E. KIIATCHBULL sa►d, when this Petition
was proposed and adopted, he neither supported nor
:ed it. W►th respect to the petition itself, the
Speaker had declared it could only be received as die
petition of the individual wbo had signed it.
Sir W. GEA RY said, the House had, during the
present session, received a Petition from the County
of Cornwall, signed by three freeholders forthe rest.
The SPEAKER. said, what had now passed :hewed
the importance of the rule of the House, of which
rule no doubt could exist, that a petition could only
be taken as the petition of the individuals who signed
it, as it might then be known who the individuals
were who agreed in the sentiments which the petition
contained.

Sir C. MONK thought the petition should be taken
as the petition of the county. It was only owing to
a mistake that it was signed as it had been.
Mr. LUSHINGTON was ready to allow it con-
tained the sense of the Meeting at Maidstone. but he
denied that it contained the sentiments of the county
of Kent.

Mr. PONSONBY asserted that if this petition was
not to be considered as conveying the sentiments of
the county, it might also be said, that neither did the
other act Bane at that Meeting convey the sentiments
of the county. Would it be said, that the Address
to the Prince Regent oh his escape, and the Vote of
Thanks to Lord Camden for relinquishing his sine-
cure, did not convey the sentiments of t:►e County.
Sir E. XNATCHRLILL was ready to allow that
both these objects would have met the support of the
county ; but as to the Meeting in question, very few
of the leading Gentleman in the county had received
notice of the requisition calling the meeting.
'Sir W. GEARY and Mr. CALCRAFT said, h
was not usual to give •any other notice than that
which was given on the present occasion, namely, a
notice in the County Paper.
The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
COURTS OF JUSTICE*
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, it was now nearly
three years since he submitted to the House the ne-
cessity of instituting some enquiry into the state of
the Courts of Justice, and to revise their fees, to see
that the Public were not taxed at a heavier rate than
was tair and reasonable. On that occasion he failed.

For although he bad reason to think the. House was
with hini, his Majesty's Ministers were unfortunately
against him. On that occasion one Honourable and
Learned Gentleman told him, he bad not sufficient
facts to lay before the House; another Honourable
and Learned Gentleman accused him of being a
visionary anti a dreamer. He afterwards, however,
got a vote of the House for the appointment of a
Committee. A Report had been made, and was now
on the table of the House ; and from that Report it
would appear that he was not altogether a visionary
or a dreamer. This he would prove by the testimony
of the Lord Chancellor himself, who on the 18th ul
April, 1815, nine months after the Committee had been
appointed, made an order, in theßankrupt department,'
abridging many of the holidays ; curtailiwand in
some instances entirely excusing the fees; thus proving
that the system which had been acted upon for nine
years preceding was wrong and op pressi we to the suitors.
With respect to the Reports now before the House,
he had to complain of many omissions ; one was that
the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Mate
of the English Court of Chancery, had neglected to
give the aggregate amount of fees at any time ; a
circumstance which rendered the Report almost nu•
gatory. On a former occasion, an Honourable
expedition
Learned Gentleman had denied that any
tees were ever taken. That assertion was at the time

answered by an Honourable and Learned Friend of
his, who said, that expedition tees were taken, by
which some business was expedited and others re-
tarded, to the inconvenience, nay ruin, of thosTe suitors
who were nut able to pay these expedition fees. The
Report of the Commissioners now confirmed the as-
sertion, that expedition fees were taken. These fees,
he contended, and many others, ought to be done
away, as the enormous stamp duties and the heavy
fees operated at present absolutely to shut the doors
of Courts of Justice against the poor suitor. H.•
would not now enter into a detail of the evils he had
to complain of, but content himself with moving two
Resolutions; the.first of which was. in substance, that
fees in Courts of Law being iu fact levied on the
suitors, should be fixed as low as possible, and should
go to a fund to defray the charges of the Court ; and
secondly, that a Committee of 21 Members should be
appointed 'to inquire into the state of the fees in the se-
veral Courts of Justice in Great Britain and Ireland.

Lord CASTLEREAGH did not consider that
the Honourable Gentleman had now made out any
grounds for the institutional an inquiry which would•
be.sttended with very great expense .to the Public ;
or which expense, .perhaps the Honourable Gentle-
man wasmot aware; one of these Committees of In.
quit, in Ireland, since•the Union, had cuss the Public
ak 1,1'6'4140,000. He the more particularly °Sleeted
to the. institution of any new inquiry, because one
was already existing sand sill the result of that.in.
quiry should be before the House, he thought no