Star.
London, England, 1810-05-26 00:00:00

than any
Learned

at y progress useful to flee public.
that the subject ought in any case
ion of those persons whose
(ratified them most et-i-
-t He repeated
Hos. ;nd Learned Friend

intention
wish for .
for the wisdom
he bad to .-
tion of the
years necessarily waiting for the decision , ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
of Chancery, little argument would be necessary to thought without going into any great detail on the
shew that some remedy ought to be applied. It was subject, it must be obvious *to every one that there
impossible, without giving to the advocates of Parlia- were great arrears in the Court dfChaneery. This cis,-
mentary, Reform a more tenable ground than they cuastance was felt by no he more than by the Noble
had hitherto occupied, to allow that the House of Lori who had been mentioned: If it'would be any
Commons, properly constituted, and sitting for the satifaction to the Honourable'Gentiewians. he caul&
benefit of the People, could permit such an evil to infom him that the subject lad been'takee into se-
grow, without some attempt to check it. Magna rime consideration.' There appeared to be no way
Charm declared that justice should be administered of remedying the evil cOmplained 'of, but ti, bringing
to the people n freely," n fully," and 46 speedily." the subject before the House, and letting- those with
What was the state of the present business in the whorl the evil originated, know that unless the recite.'
Court of Chancery ? There were near 140 orders on tone of such causes of complaint were prevented,
the paper, the arrears of many years ; and it was proper measures would .be taken foe 'proceeding
well known that at most five .or six were heard in against them. Throughout the business it was most
in each term !
,The appeals before the House of satisfactory to find, the Noble Lord had taken special
Lords were also so numerous, that on a fair calcula- I care to preserve from injury those individuals whose
tion, it would take little less than eight years to de- interests might be endangered by the regulations of
termine them. At the commencement of the present the Court.
Session, the number of those appeals were 20.5. In Mr. TAYLOR appealed to the candour' and
the first fourteen days of the Session forty-four new good sense of the House, if it was likely he should
Appeals had been presented to the House of Lords ; Save made his motion had the statement of his Hon.
since that period, twenty had been presented ;so that Friend been made before. All he had asked and all
there were 269 Appeals pending before the House , he wanted, was that the subject should be fairly taken
of Lords, without including the Writs of Error I— into consideration, and proper measures taken to re-
Was this a fit situation fora suitor tobe placed in? in, medy the evils of which he complained. He had no
a Criminal Court—in a Court of Common Law, jrs- objection under such circumstances to withdraw his
tice was immediate, but in the Court of Chancery, motion, but he wished it to be understood, that he
delay had become so proverbial, that no man began did not withdraw it from an impression that that
a suit in it with the expectation of concluding it in which he had urged was improper. On the contrary,
less than ten years. The Lord Chancellor bad other feeling as he did, that his argument stood on firm'
and important business to attend to. The Master of grounds—that they were founded in justice and in
the Rolls (ea whom the utmost credit was due, for reason, unless an efficient remedy were shortly ap-
his laborious attention to the duties of his high office) plied, he would certainly again briny the subject be-
had quite enough to do. Constituted as the Court fore the House early in the ensuing Session.
now was, therefore, it was impossible that relief The motion was then withdrawn. ..
.
could be granted to the suitors. Superadded to the CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
common business of the Court—to the superinten- Mr. PARNELL moved that the Order of the
Bence of the affairs of infants, lunatics, &c. the Lord Day for resuming the debate on the Catholic Claims
Chancellor had• to heir appeals from the Commis- should be read.
sioners of Bankrupts, a source of business which had Sir W. SCOTT, complying with the wishes of his
unfortunately become a fertile one. Where one day constituents, opposed the Petitions. The principle
had formerly been occupied in this manner, five days of which they complained had been acted upon in the
were now set apart for that purpose. After stating most enlightened times, and had at the most prosper.
several strong cases in• which, to his personal know- ous periods been recognised by our constitution. The
ledge, the most injurious delay had been sustained by Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted in his speech"
suitors in the Court of Chancery, and appellants to that if a French army should approach Ireland, the
the House of Lords, the Honourable Gentleman danger in consequence of the Catholics not having
proceeded to observe, that in his opinion, a division ! conceded the Vile might be tremendotely great.
of the offices which he Lord Chancellor held might . The system on which we acted was therefore justified
probably afford some alleviation of the evil. The !by prudence. In another part of his speech the Right
office of a Judge in Bankrupt Cases might possibly ! Hon. Gentleman had spoken loosely of the religious
be separated with advantage from that of the Lord; contests which distinguished the History of Ireland.
Chancellor. If the emoluments of Lord Chancellor lOn this ground he felt a reluctance to tread, lest it
and Speaker of the House of Lords conjoined have should lead to an unpleasant discussion, but he
not been thought sufficient without the addition of wished to ask if the Right Hon. Gentleman was pre-
those resulting from the-situation of Jadge on Bank- • pared to say, that all the calamities which had fallen
ruest Cases, 4or £5OOO a year alight be granted to ion that ill-feted country were the results of Protestant
supply the deficiency. Some might think that the aggression ? Both sides of the question ought to. be
office of Speaker of the House of Lords ought to be well considered; for it was not fair that all should be
separated from the rest. He did not affect to propose forgotten, on the one side, and all on the other be re-
any specific remedy: he had merely thrown out these corded in marble and in brass. The Petitions pre-
suggestions for the consideration of Parliament, but seined were couched in the same unqualified terms as
he declared his determination never to abandon the formerly. There were no conditions proposed, no
subject while he had a seat in that House. He re- reserves, no qualifications expressed. He thought
gretted that the business had not fallen into the hands the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have stated to
of one mere competent to treat it with ability, and ; the House what had so much illumined him on the
concluded by moving, ~ that a Committee be ap- subject, as he made qualifications to which he would
pointed to inquire into the arrears of causes now re- not agree before. The arguments made use of were
mauling for hearing in the Court of Chancery, and nearly the same as those advanced when the subject
to report the same to the House, with. their opinion was brought forward formerly. The difference be-
as to the best mode of relieving the suitors, and that tween the present situation of the Pope and that in
the said Committee do inspect the Journals of the which he stood at that time was this. He was then
Howe of Lords to ascertain the number of appeals the willing slave of France. Now he is in the qr_
and writs of error." rant's grasp. Under such circumstances were they
Sir A. PIGOT, though he was fully persuaded Ito go into a Committee on the subject, first assuming
that his Honourable and Learned Friend was infin-, that their prayer was to be granted, and then to con-
aimed only by motives of public duty, yet ream.' sider what securities should be given. The Right
mended him to withdraw his motion—a step which lion Gentleman had pointed to the establishment of
would not prevent him from renewing it at any In. a domestic nomination. He would have been glad,
ture period, should he find that the evils of which he had he honoured the House so far as to state where
complained continued to exist, and that no measures it could be found, and what security he had, that the
had been adopted to obviate them. Situated as he 1 adoption of such a plan (if it could be adopted)
had long been in the Court of Chancery, it was im- i would give universal content. • He had favotired
possible for him not to do to the Noble and Learned i them with nothing of that kind, nor was any thing
Lord who at present held the great seal the justice to of that nature to be found but in the ideas of the
which he was fully entitled._ It did not appear to, Right Hon. Gentleman. He had argued in favour
him to be possible that • any mat 'could ever have de-1 of the veto being conceded by the Catholics, but from
voted himself more completely to the public service, i this they were expected to shrink with disgest and
than that NeibleLtird had done during the difficult, i horror. Domestic nomination had been protested,
arduous, important, and laborious duties which he , against. He wished to know if there were any rea-
had been called upon to discharge. He felt himself 1 sons to believe that it would now be agreed to. If
the more at liberty-to offer this impartial testimony i they refused to give the veto, how could it be ex-
to the merits of the Noble and Learned Lord, as he I pected they would submit to a domestic nomination?
I
had not the honour of any closer connection with, There might be persons of that Community willing toe
him, than that which the business of the Court neces- admit this or that expedietit to conciliate matters ; lent
sarily induced. Adverting to the question before the those Gentlemen, though they might' be Gentlemeri
I
House, he observed that one very material reason of great respectability, were not guides, the pass
which might have produced an inereased delay in the 'fairs, the lights of the church. t:They were not the
proceedings of the Court of Chancery, was a material 1 organs of the Catholic community, etad he was satis-
a lteration nthat had gradually taken place in the form I fled, that whatever concessions of' that kind those in.
athese proceedings. Perhaps no tine had occurred I-dividuals might make, the would mot he implicitly
in which such delays as those mentioned by his Hon.. followed by the great - bf the Catholics. irsel
.and Learned Friend did not exist. They were fre- I Honourable Member "here-Wad same extracts from
queutly attributable to the agents of the suitors rather 1 Dr. Milner, from which he inferred, that to ask the
;Alan to the. Court, which thus unjustly incurred the' Catholics to submit to domestic nomination, was in
popular censure. But however great :night be the other words to ask them to cease to be Catholics,
evil, the mode proposed by his Hon. and Learned and when theyscalledVon them to cease to be Ca-
Friend did not appear to him to be- the best calcu- tholics witlient, .citineer; non, wt, must they think of
. hated to rm. t Wli
rie it. The venerable antiquity of the .the individual treomplied, either as a . member of
4.
situation old Lord .Chancellor—its high importance in the Roman Catliolte:Chnrch, or as a man ? If they
!the State-sits close connection with the Crown, made I.Would submit to rib nomination but that of the Pope,
it a subject which them who, without meaning anyjhe wished to know how the intercourse could be car-
imputation on hie Hon:' and Learned Friend, were, I lied on ? While the Pope remained in captivity he
perhaps, more experienced than he could possibly heel could only correspond with them by permission of
' trembled to touch. He allowed, however, that somel Donaperte aadeould any one think that Bonaparte
remedy might be necessary. He had no doubt, after i would Stifier such an intercourse to exist under any
the notice which the motion of his Hon. and Learned, i circumstance` unfa. votirable to the influence of France ?
Friend had occasioned, that the Noble and Learned I In short, it could not be expected, that he would per-
Lord would himself give to the subject all the atten. I min* it within:ft that Ito being transferred to him
tion which it demanded. He had no doubt also, that I whichtbeiWused to the King. If every difficulty
it would excite thi attention of the other Members of I arieing fool lantor • religion, could be got over, still
his Majesty's, Governmen t. If a Legislative proceed- ! would there' bikeasons fier a Protestant, or (as they
ing.sheuld.he consequence be judged necessary, he called it). a 'NtM4atholie'.Government, to refuse to
was sure that no consideration of emolument would acced,e.to Xhit'etition. -The influence of persons in
be allowed to ctanil in the way of any remedial mea- , their eXtiich was greater than that of common pastors,
sure. At the -pitselitt period of the Session, when ; and spiritual power, converted into a temporal en-
every thing indicated its approaching close, it would 1 gine, was of' sufficient importance to create alarm.
be iEspracticanly, even KW a Committee appoiatecle He thought their prayer could not be granted on the

security proposed by the Right Honourable Gentle.
man, as on such security no Non-Catholic Govenu
ment could rely for the safety of its civil and religious
lestablishments.

msaidti,lethceoroclainmahtaoiodfnthceohoCeLseth
arisingW P ORf
from g.ThOsHorNoprs
tholics had been for a considerable time er(' 1:
Cinortoonaactioomn Oath,
had at length been abandoned, or at least Oath,
thrSoiru
'feted to sink for a time into oblivion. The grounds
then,
tnhienoweonostrb7jecctteiond
toofsthneg
on which they had opposed the Wishes of thetath
being found perfectly untenable, they
on the subject. • And why ? because it was
that suggested by his Right Honouriole
unattainable—because what he wished for
be attained, they refused to go into a Commit
consider if they could afford the suffering -
redress by any ether means. They stated
claim to those rights which they thought
be restored to them. They asked but for what
taken away from them, and to which they ,
their loyalty and their general good cond
them a claim. It.should be recollected that
which they complained wits no: imposed
after they had been wader a Protestant Goy
It was impolitic 'to, deny those rights (they ,
as we could have no safety but in embod,
whole nation as; one man in the mighty
which we wereengaged. tAirithvut those ,
could not embark as heartily in the cause
otherwise would, if the road to preferment
were thrown npento them. The soldier
be so animated-,when precluded" from risin;
certain rank in the army, as When it was
his prowess to raise him to rank of aGI
enable him to einulate blailborough's fai
and-O'Donnell, who find- fought so gloric
cause of Spain, were Catholics. We were ,
admire their tali:tits end Sio justice to their
Why then did. we glut those out from glr
own country, of whom we could not stet
pr'ess our admiration while they were fightit
thcr ? Why, too, were Citholia; to be so
petted of being .attached to Ott' interest
In various parts 9( Enrope,Catholici had
in arms against France, add hghting
ardour as could possibly animate Protest
the cause. Why, then, was Catliolic valour
to pine unnoticed, unrewarded in our
no just grounds existed for believing Cat
affected- towards France ? He would
.teal to another grievance. When a Catholic
filled. himself for the Bar, why was he
denied promotion ? tottld a C. ttholic '
rous as King's Conesel ? Corld he be
as King's Serjeant ? Surely not. The
Baronet then proceeded to inquire wit:
been given for those complaints which ha,
from the army in Sicily ? Why were
clerevmen refused access to the Catholic
there*? If they were treated thus, what
petted from them but languid compliance
obedience ? Give the Catholic the same s
ment, and he will embark in the cause with
!ardour as the Protestant. Bat under
couraging circuntstances they had embari
in the cause. We had been obliged to
it repeatedly over and over again—we bad
they deserved well. The system pursued,
be such as would emanate from a desire
their deserving better. This was not
gone to such a pitiful length ai even to pee
becomiiv Sheriffs or Sub-Sheriffs. The
bore severely on the Catholics. It was
been in some measure tempered by the grog
rality of the Protestants in Ireland ; but
ded, that the Legislature ought no; tow;
a portiOri of the people vibe objects of
be so far dependent on others. They had
reasons for complaining when it was remern
prospects were held out to them at the U'
prospects then held out to the' Catholics
otri,ht to hare bound Government to .
grievances before this time, almost as much
had been compelled to do so by. a. written '
Pitt said at that time, o We are a divi
tracteat: people, Nvqtkencti and torn by.
senekes,which"under existing circumstant
be interminable; so long as our coitncils,
prudence cannot admit that which, united,
might concadc.".. Two years after that
Pitt, when leaVing office, had stated It
nion, that an rater sion 9f the rights
to Ciatholics .poo as imincent.and safe, aft
as it woldd.Mie been dangerous before.
said, why did not Catholics come forst
such and such concessions? It *as
to do so ; but it wits for us to state
der what .restrictions we were willing
privileges they desired. It was impossit
the same ze4 could be felt in the coina
among melt hetween.whom such a dk
incest existeil. • ''fiat enthusiasm in the
country which. is felt by him who shares
reouldi net be expected from men who I
net ‘Omplete sharers in them. It was
nature. To give all an equal interest
vation of the. country, its
.ptivileges should
open to all. It had been said Catholic
was not desired by the great body of
pie, as the beneficial effects of it could
the lower orders.. He could not better
sense of the Qeople of Ireland than in
their petition, it which they stated that,
complained to be the cause of daily
Drawing an impassable line of separation,
the nation and kept animosity alive, wi.
tion they regarded as that for the absence
theft existed no compensation.
Lord CASTLEREAGH did not conceive
necessary for him then to state his sentiments
general question. Could the privileges
be given to the Catholics with secu.-,
greatly increase the strength of the Emeirei
convinced was he of the impossibility of
that in the Irish Parliament, anxious as
nefit the population of Ireland, he did •
could with safety be communicated
question was, looking at the plower of
and Protestant parties, whether their
allowed the presumable Catholic power
get into the system, would be sufficient .
the Protestant government and establishments
could not separate the Catholics from,.
He did not reflect on their loyalty, but

of his predecessors. To his Noble aria thenMad make aor pn
Friend, therefore it was by to ip eats kip ipos *conceived, that thi
to impute the slightest blame. -Nee id total& to the deliberatio
usdess innovation. The remedy it "Zit alithwi
to ty and e
investigxpate it eriesee •
visdom of the House to determinei non* as
o state was, that if they looked at the comi- its commendation to his
he numerous' suitors who had been rimy to withdraw his motion.
waiting for the decision of the Court The CHANCELLOR
. .

slt Gentle.
is Govern.
d religious
of the Ca.
le evaded,
tion Oath,
t least suf.
he ground
the Catho.
ition Oath,
sad chosen
Committee
Ls said, that
Friend was
r could not
mmittee to
g Catholics
itated their
t ought to
sat had been
y conceived
ndact gave
that that of
ed till lon?,
lovernment.
!y claimed),
bodying; tne
ity came in
rights 111,7
use as they
nt and gli •.1
Ler could no:
ing above a
s possible for
General, and
fame. Blake
riously in the
Pere ready to
their valour.
glory in our
efficiently ez.
,fisting in :no.
so much sus.
of France ?
,d been fount
vith as much
'rotestants in
dour doomed
army, when
'atholics well
d now pro.
Catholic qua.
he them tho
is be dange.
be dangerous
Mena ratite
by cause had
sad come over
the Catholic
tholic soldiers
t could be et.
ce and passive
ne encourage.
with the same
all tie* .s.
oar ked heartily
acknowledge
lad had to car,
led, seemed w
re to prevent
t all, we had
preclude the:
le Penal Lae
true they had
growing fibs.•
wt he caste's.
suffer so I trge
toleration, to
id the stmngte
lembered what
Union. The
s were such as
redress their
nucb as if they
:ten bor.d. W.
vided and dis-
y imstailtsedrear:tgengicis daraermosiu.
stitycst.,
at period, M'.
it to be his op,
of Protestants
after the Uniou,
re. It had been
rward to make
not for dunn
to to them lir-
auw
. :oehljdcs est :sotsEmancipation
feltf ist-
sinPtnctoeabouosam or
iltlta
extend
Trn l
mzu
per
at
to thing
opr e
shrod
° ct
d
c:
privileges,
:ter express the
in the words 0:
t of which they
humiliation.—
ation, it divided
while emancir
isence of when
conceive it tete
ntiments on ths
es of Pretexts°
%yea
Empire, but so
ty O so doing'
.
as he Was W
te
d not think thief
to them. Ite
of the Cathae
it claims, be:4
wer which Inighl
lent to endue
liJinients ? tie
other disteateri'.
ut it wia

pose that a dissenter could be as much ; beyondthe arrangement already stated. He, Mr. Pitt,
the Protestant Church as one.of tht same -and Lord Cornviallis, hat:sarong desire that what
was, therefore, to be considered,whethers, was or might be done, should not seem to grow from.
Church was sufficiently strong to contend t any Omit)** engagement. He did not now mean
with the Catholic, but also with the Protes. :-that there was nothing to give, expectation ; on the
sters ? His feeling was, even if the Cathie- . contrary, be apprehended that impressions might have
reconcile themselves to give the pledge re- •, been created from extraneous circumstances, .but po
them, -
a great advantage would thence be sitively not from any promise. As far as his ano
the State. It was his opinion at the Union, Mr. Pitt's language went, -it was distincly reverse to.I
privileges should be given to the Catholics a promise, and went only to say that measures might
,id With security, but never as a simple afterwarits result from the Legislature ; if any of the
, The Right Hon. Baronet, in quoting leading Catholics had it in his power to prove this
speech on that occasion, had passed over;,hi statement false, he would do in a great favour by
remarkable expression. He never pledged . coming forward. If ant part of the Catholics drew 1
to follow any particular line of conduct. a favaitableaspect from any of the discussions on the
were, .. Whatever course may be pursued, Union, there were many -others who did the reverse.
will prove a blessing to all parties, and Or In corroboration of these statement's he begged the
legislature will be in a condition in which House to recollect the correspondence between his late
- grant or refuse with greater safety."— Right Hononrible Friend and the Irish Government.
thus, he pledged Government to adopt no ; Orfthesinesubjecthe held inhishand a memorandum
!astire, the course to be pursued was an ' of Lord Conivrallies, which he then read. He trusted
ideration. The Catholic hierarchy had more the House would perceive that he' did not go from his
than any other dissenting hierarchy. It duty in the explanation of facts. Whatever the discus.
be separated from foreign influence, and , sioti might be hereafter,. he hoped there would not be
inected with Government at home. As long -, introduced a spirit of acrimony. He would vote now
' was a Catholic country, it would yindicate preCisely as he had done before on the same questions
of its clergy against the See of Rome...-. Iliut it would 'be chiefly on the grounds that he did not
cries which were most bigotted to the Ca-- feel, from the present circumstances of the country, this
th were always alarmed at the form of au- • to be a proper time for the Catholics to introduce
jr, Spain they went so far in precaution as 1 their claims, although he would freely admit them,
to intercourse with tilic See of Rome, nor t provided they were to make concessions consistent
subject even to its controul or inspection. 1 with the faith and purity of their church. If he was
la every thing was under the lemporalautho. ; to have advised them, he would not have persuaded
France the Papal power hadtms more to do 1 them to bring their question forward at any period
Ippointeient of ita Bishops than it has to do I since the Union took place. Nothing he recommen-
Protestant clergy here. This latter principle ; ded more than the temperate manner in which it had
limited to Catholic countries ; in Prussia I been brought forward by the Right Honourable Gen-
ie the Bishops were always appointed by the 1 tleman, However, he was of opinion, that the Ca-
ts. It cannot be stated, from the constant tholic discussion had rather diminished than increased
of the Catholic Church, that such contrail
.the number of its friends ' • the cause had suffered.—
;gatived. He apprehended that the Catholics,
,Could any Committee be more awkwardly situated
present case, pressed their claims on the Legis- :than that which is called on for a discussion on a
• - their proper situations. The Catholic church qnestion without any frained plan ? He would not
tertu gone on witholit any sacrifice of its dde- tcOnceive any thing •sd nugatory and so mischievous.
1799. Lord Cornwallis communicated the With respect to the interest itself, nothing could throw
,ernment had formed with respect to the Ca.' it at so immeasurable a distance. He had the im-
'shops ; the arrangelnent stood on the diffe- pression that their claims might be complied with,
mds of the political part of the question.— consistent with Protestant safety, if connected with'.
use was aware, that all those who disap- the necessary safeguards.. Since the Union he had
f this planelooked to that only ivhich would observed in the Protestants a reluctance to the mea-
Clergy in a situation beyond all corn- `sure : he was satisfied the Roman Catholics might
they were in a state of the most abject expect every thing from the liberality of the Protes.
yet they would not give way to the tent mind. Bigotry would exist in all religions, yet
A the people. He wag convinced they were he was confident the Protestants were a most liberal
of discharging the highest services, and he and a most enlightened body, and would grant the
their irrangemeat would be a measure cal- claims of their Catholic countrymen, if fairly grout).
to ells' the differences of the country. He ded. He felt it his duty to give the same vote.
it would he -injurious to the Crown to have Sir J. C. HIPPESLEY made a few observations
influence over their Clergy ; Wit even had, it in explanation. .
iossible to (Leila but, from the appearance of Mr. LAMB did not know if this was the best time
ILances alone, it would be constantly laid open for answering the Catholic claims, he believed if it
insinuations: One'part of the arrangemen I was delayed any longer it would be the destruction of
dby Government was confined simply to the elle country. He asked a learned Judge and the
,of being infOrmed who the Titular ,Dishap University of Oxford, is it fitting to come forward and
be, that itonight'have it in its power- to make talk of defences and dangers without explaining the
osonable objection; 'He conceived it 'would grounds? The question is, whether there is not ari-
dly satisfy the feelings both of the State and ger in the existence of the religion, or whether its re.
:ountry, if Ireland knew that its Bishops re stnctions shall be removed ? He begged-the House
',he sanction of the Protestant Government.e.- to'sympathise with Ireland, to put themselves in the
principle there could be no Objection to its place of Irishmen, and recollect that a Clergy here-
He assured the'HOuse that ;it avas not the tical in the eyes of the people had been put in posses-
ion of the Clergy to run before the Government sion, in this the country acquiesced ; who then can I
measure; they did not* appear at 'all jealous call them a stiff-necked generation ? Consider they
power of the State, nor consider it to be incoe. sacrificed every thing dear to a high souled and high
with the tenets of their Church. This circom- spirited people, and ought not we to make some se-
: was but a small branch' of the intended sys- crifices in return ? He then adverted to the present
the detail would nor be entered into until it had state of the Continent, which moved with all the re-
dolly approVed of by'the Goiernment and by gtilarity of a machine, under the impulse of One man,
jesty, and brought forward in ha proper shape. a visitation of Pitovineatce on the earth. He did not
;ver commuuieatiop there !night be with the speak for popularity's sake but for his country, for his
Rome, it should be Made with the knowledge family, apd for his existence ; the whole ground of
rernment avid passed wider its eye, in order. his oppesitioa to Ministers was, that they seemed to'
iffy improper attempt Might 'be prevented.—s have pledged themselves not to take measures for the
irovisions of the arrangentent were not new or conciliation of the Irish Catholics.
,or inconsistent ; other sects hid been simi. Sir WILLLIM SCOTT made some explanation,
idowed; in Ireland the disienters had received but in a tone inaudible to the Gallery.
iwtneut, which 'tended to ' the' increase of that General MATTHEW observed, that this was not
However, he did not quite approve of the only the Catholic but the Protestant cause; it em-
Ace. The arrangement *intended was of a simi- braced not only the interest of Ireland, but of Eng-
tture to that Made with respect to the Roman land, and the world at large. He then made extracts'
olic Clergy orScotland, which extended to the from Lord Mountjoy's narrative of Ireland in the
vment of schoOli, 'arid fOr which the See of time of Queen Elizabeth, exhibiting a variety of
expressed great grafit ode and approbation.— enormities ; the practices, he said, of 1798 were
!ope of that
,slay was not jealcitis ;lit knew that equally barbarous ; in Dublin he was an eye-witness
part of the Spiritual *a s nettrAarily intertivovett to many an industrious min, taken from the bosom
the Temperal qoverinieht.'' The Catholics of of his family, and without trial, hurried to the Royal
ad arc at yieiant. in a -greater dependence on Exchange, the Castle-yard, and Beresford's Riding-
See of Rome than any other Catholic Country:— house, where he was tied up, and flogged till he con-
`-lonourible 'Baronet (girl. C. Hippesley) sta- fessed crimes of which he was not guilty. He has
rat an ,Ireland,,erceot six dioceses, received the seen lying in the ditches of the country fathers and
:il of Trent. He Understood there were only sons butchered, wives and daughters defiled and pol-
rhich,did not ;.iii fact,the•Whole country consi. luted by English fencibles and German mercenaries.
its Church governed by the Council of Trent, a Mr. Pitt saw that the system of coercion had failed,
:il driven thither Ville temporal power, intim- and recommended Catholic Emancipation. The Ho-
sale-mice of encroachments, ibitreluetantly acceded nourable General recommended to the Hotise to ac-
the Pope. All its' arrangements augmented cede to the proposition for going into 'a Committee,
tuthority of the See of Rome ;it was composed of as the mil' means of. saving Ireland. If it was not
Jain Bishops, and ended without accomplishing its acceded to, :he foretold that this country would have
irposes, with a direct reservation however of all the to lament the refusal ; for, in the event of the subju-
of the See of Rome. ' This Cotmcil was ever gallon of Spain by the Emperor of France, the ports
ignized by the Gallican Church iit never receiv- of that country would be in possession of that Power, ,
is tenets, as they tended' to injure its' libertiet —i and the passage from thence to Ireland being so short,
Catholics of Ireland, hoviever, consider its.regu4 :the conquest, in case of invasion, must follow. Hay-
Is as a code. He was aware of the notion, that ing made some observations upon the general con-
mischiefs would arise from episcopacy existing duct of the Government with regard to Ireland, and
the Catholics of Ireland. He thought it would instanced- the authorities of Mr. Pitt, of Mr. Fox,
a the people more innocents and less detrimental and of Mr. Burke, for the necessity of Catholic Eman-
the Protestant Church. If there is a great body cipation, he concluded with_s2pporting the motion.
atholic interest, the great question is how it can Lord Viscount JOSCELYN was aware of the dif-
;overned with safety ? He did not wish that it , ficulty of forming a Correct .opinion on the subject ;
ild exist at all ; as every danger arises from dis. i but, at the same time, he was obliged to differ with
-ing interests, if so, the great object is, to separate i the Right Honourable. Mover. He thought that con-
.from foreign authority. He did not with that the i ciliation was necessary ;.but there *Ss no bar pro=
name of the Catholic Bishops should class with that ' vided in the present state of things to secure the Ca.
the Established Church. Episcopacy, he thought, tholics against the powers sof France,. and therefore
fight as well exist in the Catholic Church of Ireland , concession on their part was, desirable. Unless the
in the Presbyterian of Scotland. (Hear, hear.)— I King had the Veto, or power of appolMing such
'jog thus far entered into explanation, he wished I Bishops as to him might seem proper, there was, in
to make a few observations on whet degree of , his opinion, an insurmountable theta& in complying
oderstanding there was respecting the Union, and i with their demands. Supposing the measure was
it degree of expectation was held out. He did adopted, still lie thought no niattrialbenefit would be
wish that Ireland should have the impression of I produced by it. The disease would remain—a disease
fig unfairly dealt with. If there had been a real I which -could not be eradicated until the-men of pro-
.sappointment, he .slid not deserve the name of a Om in Ireland felt: the:wads 4*, and set an
Statesman or an honest, man. At the time of the - example to the-people nf that ciiiitstrr, by living.. on
'Tnion, there was no promise made to the Catholiesl their mites. • Wted to, 'Gott, be ' °Mewed, that'

.

some mots could be devised to compel absentees to
return; to forbid„thet ruinous and destructive emi-
gration which was the sole cause °tall the real grity;
anees of which Ireland complained.
Mr. SHAW' wished to allow the Catholics the full
enjoyment of all their rights. - Muteal" concessions
were necessary ; the Catholics were sloW at conceding.
He was therefore against going into the Committee.
Mr. Secretary RYDER, though he was not dis-
posed to offer many observations, could not let the
debate pass over without stating the ground of objec-
tion' which he had to the proposition of the Right
Honourable Gentleman. It would be unnecessary
for him to dwell much at length on the arguments
adduced by the Right Honourable Gentleman when
he brought his motion forward. • The most zealous
advocates of the Catholics' cause had formerly stated
that concessions would be made which Iti!erwards; as
it turned out, the Catholics were not disposed to make.
That was the short ground on which the motion had,
in a former Session, been resisted, and that was the
ground upon which he should now vote against it.—
The House would see the extraordinary situation in
which they were placed, in consequence of what the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) two
years since had stated on the subject. That Right
Honourable Gentleman had stated, that he was au-
thorized to declare, on the part of the Catholics, that
they were ready to give his Majesty a negative in the
nomination of Bishops, provided their claims were
admitted, and they were allowed equal participation
with their Protestant brethren. When the Right Hon.
Gentleman wasquestioned asto the source from whence
he derived his authority, he replied, from Dr. Milner,
the accredited agent of the Catholics in England. It
was on that concession that Parliament was disposed
to attend to the petitions ; but what followed that
declaration ? In a few months afterward., a meeting
of the Roman Catholic Bishops was held, at which
they came to a resolution, directly and positively
stating, that they never should concede to the
Crown the power of nominating their Bishops.—
Dr. Milner had subsequently published several pam-
phlets denying that he had ever warranted such a
proposal to be made. This was not all ; for after the
debates on this subject, what was the information'
which the public had subsequently received? Lord
Grenville had stated, that he had received the most
flittering acknowledgments from the body of Catho-
lics for the exertions he had made in their behalf ;
and he stated, that he had the same authority for the
proposition. Now it appeared very singular, the
proposal having been made in this House and else-
where, that the same Dr. Milner should in a publica-
tion declare, " That he would lose the last drop of
his blood before he would consent to a proposition
not sanctioned by the general body of the Catholics."
The House and the Public had not yet been informed
how the delusion was practised. The Right Hon.
Gentleman bad not condescended to explain, but had
passed it over altogether. He was happy to have
the opportunity of making these observations in the
presence of the Right Honourable Gentleman, be.
cause he trusted the explanation would now come.—
He had no wish to impute to the Right Honourable
Gentleman any motive which be would not disavow,
but was ready to believe that be might have been de-
ceived. At. the same time, it was strange that such
proposition having been made (which must have ori-
ginated in misunderstanding) the misunderstand.
ing should not, between enlightened men, have
been explained. His Majesty's Government were
exposed to all the attacks of the friends of the Ca-
tholic cause, were charged with intolerance and
bigotry for not complying with their demands, when,
in point of fact, they knew there was a decided and
insurmountable objection to giving the ve:o. It was
a duty which he owed to himself to get up and ex-
plain. As to the question at present under discus-
sion, he would quote from a publication of Lord
Grenville's, just before the meeting of Parliament,
which was in the hands of every man, and cDntained
opinions concurrent with his own. It would be re-
collected that this publication came from a man of
distinguished rank, of Ire it literary attainment, and
of unquestionable ability ; it was circulated too at a
peculiar time, when an idea had gone forth among
that Noble Lord's friends, that he was to be placed
at the head of the Government. It therefore must
be considered as the political creed of the great
Leader of the Right Hon Gentleman's patty. The
Right Hon. Secretary then read an extract trom the
pamphlet, in which the author states, " that the ques
tion was not a single nor unconnected one ; much was
to be done for the establishment of the mutual rights
of both religions in point of concession, that having
pointed out the necessity of conceding the veto, but '
that being denied, he saw much of unexampled em•
barrassment and difficulty in the question, connected
as it was with England, his deliberate opinion was.
that great and permanent obstacles would arise to
the accomplishment eif the object." That was the
opinion of Lord Grenville, and, said the Right Hon.
Gentleman, is my opinion, under these circumstances,
I cannot vote for the motion of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman. On these grounds, not wishing to sport
with *the feelings of the Catholics, he could not con-
sent to raise hopes and expectations which could never

be realized.
Lord DURSLEY was instructed on the part of a
large portion of the Ptotestant rreeholders of the ex-
tensive and populous county which he represented, to
state, that they wished their Catholic fellow-subjects
to share in common with them, the same rights, pri-
vileges, and immunities.
Mr. PONSONBY, in a very argumentative speech
which was frequently interrupted by loud bursts of
applause, contended in favour of the claims of the
Roman Catholics of Ireland. It was objected to the
Roman Catholics, tlat they would not give up the
This he did not wholly believe • but were the
Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite prepared to say, that
if they would abandon this, they were ready to grant
them their claims ? Were they ready or willing to
-reytnto a Committee to adjust those claims, or were
not, on the contrary, prepared to oppose every
measure of adjuutment, and to prevent every arrange-
' ment that mt lead to reconciliation ? The motion
went only soar as to have a Committee, and every
inn n disposed to meet the claimants half way Would
accede to the proposition. Was it to be expected that
all the voncesslon should be made on the part of the
Roman Catholics, and was the Government of this
country to accede nothing ? It was necessary there
should be a disposition to mutual concession, and in
tiOlk 11% the pre6ent Goa-
-1 vaia *looked for that diAposi .

sterament. He contended that the concess of the Pee
was made on the part of the Roman Cath•lics, and it
eteneigedforhis Majesty's Ministere to say if:hee would
ccedelrlteclaims reqrsPar on such e eetweesion ?
litk knew they were indisposed to gr int those cl :ims
enemy grounds ; and all that had hitherto been said,
tended only to confirm him in this opiniOn. It was
theieler the utmostsophistry, and a deception on ;he
public to contend aiat they wenlif not give up the
vete. . If they arterd that the Roman Catleics
Would give up nothing, the only mode of ascertiuning
this was- to go into the' Committee, ),vhieh was not
narrowing the grounds of Ministers, nor estedeing
them to any thing. It did not fitiloW that:by Oink
into the Committee they were to give up the whole
to the Roman Catholics. The. Committee was a
middle course that could not be rejected by any man
that was unprejudiced. He argsred the necessity of
making some concession to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, from the present state of Euroee. Bonaparte
was one of those persons that seemed employed by
Nowise-we to effect great revolutions. They ought
not to deceive themselves; he was onnof the greatest
personages in modern times, and commanded a pen.
ple not less ambitious, nor less vicious than himself.
Were they then to give up to his ambitious view,*
four-fifths of the people of Ireland, by refusing to
grant them the just claims they required ? (ifear,
hear.) They ought net to believe that he dragged a
reluctant army into the field, and Fiance very ate t
knew that if she could put down England she would
be mistress of the world, and one of the most likely
means of doing so was to deprive them of Ireland.--
It was too remote, therefore, from the policy' f this
country to say, that they shouldgrlnt the Roman
Catholics nothing till they ascertained the amount of
their claims. A conciliatory system was required, and
to spew the disposition of this country towards such a
syetem,it waanecess4ry theysinukigointoaComrnitteei
It was for the British legislature,he contended, to make
the first advance, and if the Roman Catholics were
found uncharitable, the blame would then be theirs.
He argued, that. the Mee were a people that never
could be borne down by oppression, and that the only
secure way of governing them was by their affections
(Hear, hear.) It-clang bad never yet obtained any
thing from this country, and the hopes they had been
Bled to entertain from the Union had hitherto been dis.
appointed. It was time some of those hopes should
be realized, and he appealed to the Noble Lerl who
had spoken (Castlereagh), if any of the great pro-
mises he had held out as italucements to the Union
had been fulfilled. Ireland had never yet obtained
any thing but from the embarrassment of England ;
it was therefore high time to spew that this country
was disposed to do justice from inclination, as well
as necessity. He concluded by recommending, in
the strongest terms, a Committee, and by calling on
the House to interfere, as they did at the end of the
American war, to the relief and salvation of the
country.
The CHANC7T.LOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in a very animated speech, replied to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and contendei, that it was only fair they
should know all that was claimed by the Roman Ca.
tholics of Ireland. They wished certain concessions
to be made to them, but they would not tell the con-
ditions on which they wished these concessions to be
made. These Gentlemen wished to get into the Com-
mittee, but would not tellzke reason why ; and why
should they go into a Committee, unless to find the
means of implementing the conditions required ? The
Roman Catholics, he contended, were not in a sitna.
Lion to bargain for themselves. They could not act
without the consent of the Pope, nor adhere to any
engagements unless they obtained his sanction. It'
satisfaction was. to be given them, it was necessary
they should receive every thing they demanded, and
he would leave it fo'any mina to judge how far such
a concession would be censis:ent either with the spirit
or safety of the Constitution. Iftheeeiveee lei give
the people of Ireland full satisfaction, they mint sur-
render to them the Chinch, and all the privileges
which the Church enjoyed. If they could not-thus far
satisfy them, they would render them WY. the more
dissatisfied. He contended that it would therefore
be idle and fruitless to go into a Committee-on the
subject.
Mr. WHITBREAD supported the dal* of the
Roman Catholics, and judged of the sentiments of the
Right Honourable Gentleman not so much from ?ghat
he had said now, as from his former speeches: If
that Right Honourable Gentlemen had never before
opposed the Roman Catholic claims, they might have
believed him sincere in declaring that the Catholics
had not expressed their determination with respect
to the Veto. His language now was, as if for the
first time, I can grant you nothing—you are persons
I cannot trust. The Roman Catholics, he contended,
did not wish the Church surrendered to them : they
wished only to be put on a footing with the Church.
He made some remarks on the absentees of Ireland,
as adding still more to their discontent, and depreca-
ted the bigotry of the University of Oxford, and the
narrow policy preserved by this country with regard
to the Catholic Question. When the Catholic Bi-
shops in 1799 offered to vote, the country refused to
accede to it ; and now Ministers pretended they could
grant nothing, because that Veto was not offered as aa,
primary condition. He argued that Government had
repeatedly, and on some very important occasions,
employed Roman Catholics, and now they pretended
that no confidence was to be reposed in them. He
was afraid that no concessions whatever on the part
of the Rornaa Catholics would satisfy the present Mi.
nisters. The Honourable Member concluded by say-
ing, it would be the greatest injustice, if tie House
did not agree with the motion.
Mr. CANNING opposed the motion. He was con-
vinced that the public mind was not prepared at this
time to agree to the Catholic claims. When a proper
opportunity arrived for receiving their Petition, he was
of opinion, the question ought to be brought forward.
Mr. HERBERT strongly supported the motion.
Mr. HUTCHINSON observed, that four Irish
Members only had spoken on the qhestion. There
were other Gentlemen who had a desire to speak, and
the importance of the subject rendered it necessary to
adjourn the debate.
Mr. SHERIDAN was of opinion ItOltetbe House
ought to adjourn, and after some observatiens friam
Mr. Hp/timer and Sir JoHN NEWPORT, during which
there was a loud cry of Go on, Mr. Hurcinwsore
moved to adjourn. The question was then carried,
and the debase was adjourned to Friday next.
The adjournment took place at Four o'c"

to suPP4
to tl
;:,31. It w
r oor the CI
„t onlY
,at DiFsente
re(
c..viej of the
erived to till
,' at those Pr
"they !maid
nossion.
tr. pitt's spy
e most rem
vernment
is vas wo
union wi
imperial leg
msY n g.'
;peak' g
ific Incas
ter onside!
larence the
crtzikt to be
-ever tonne
IrtiAnd
the rights_,(4
The tutlittnt
tholic faith v,
thority; m
to allow no
were they su
In Austria e
•itr. In Fr;
with the API
with the Prc
LIS not lin
d Rustia
onarchs.
of t
be negat
ia the preset
'dare in the
.td hi th ert t
trine.
I,an Graver
tholic Bibb(
rat ound
The I I9us,
Fi)ved of ti
pace the
petition ; tl
poverty, y
feelings of
capable of
thought the
;dated to
thought it
a direct in!
was Halloos!
cireumitan
to unjust it
Ingested
tinessity o
was to be,
my ream
powerfull)
of the Cot
ceived the
On that p
claims.
intention
in this m
of the pa
sistent tv
▪ stance w
• tem ; the
been wits
his Majes
r Whatevet
t See of RC
of Glover
• that ever]
✓ The prow
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r.IT ende
i• abignie
; - body. }
measure.st
lap natur
Catholic
r. endowme
Rome ex
is The Pop
n, great par
xt with the
to ,Ireland
en the See c
n- The Hot
he teds ;that
ak Council
me two whit
dets.its
Council
sequence
no to by thi
att the auth
cr- Italian I
i Purpose!
ion rights of
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to Pd its to
the The ca
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ich of Cath
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States
Uuiot
4

C,A I.LOC