Star.
London, England, 1818-03-04 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

A Person from the British Museum presented certain Ac-
counts relative to the Books received last year from Stationers'
Hall; which was ordered to be printed,
POOR'S RATES.

Mr. LUSHINGTON having presented a variety
of Papets relative to the Poor's Rates, being chiefly
the Retffrns of Sums collected for this purpose in
different District*, _ _ _

Mr. D. GILBERT, on moving that these Papers
be printed. expressed his opinion that unless the evil
of regulations that now existed were done away, or
brought at least within some limits, it could.not fail
to be_the ruin of the country. The Committee, how-
ever, which had sat last Session, had been so indefa-
tigable in their labours, that he trusted the subject
they had investigated would meet the deepest atten-
tion, and the result be generally satisfactory.
Sir CHARLES MONCK was certain the country
would not be satisfied unless his Majesty's Govern-
ment came forward, and fairly and radically remov-
ed the evil.

Mr. CALCRATT did not wish to deny that the
Poor's Rates were an evil ; but he did not see how it
was in the power of his Majesty's Government to re-
move it. If the Honourable Gentleman were sincere
in his wish, and he had no reason to doubt his sin-
cerity, let him bring in a Bill to remedy the evil,
that it might be seen what means he would propose.
But the fact was, that the real evil of pauperism and
consequent poor's rates arose chiefly from excessive
taxation. These rates had reached their highest point,
and were now gradually declining, so that we should
soon have no occasion to alter • a s) stem that had
been established for ages, and been productive of so
much benefit. But Gentlemen might in a great de-
gree thank themselves for the height which the evil
had attained. They would have a Corn Bill, and
Country Bank Paper, and yet they wanted a low
price of labour and moderate poor rates. The things
were inconsistent ; for if they will have a high price
for corn, there must be high poor rates, as the wages
of labour were not sufficient for the support of hu-
man existence, and both labourers and their families
must eat. He cared not, however, of what price corn
was, so that proper support could be found for the
labourer. But he would be one of those who would
never set his face against the Act of Elizabeth.
Sir CHARLES MONCK wished it to be under-
stood that it was against the abuse of the Poor Laws
that he had spoken, and not against any part of the
Act which provides support for the aged and infirm.
Mr. F. LEWIS hoped that on so important a sub-
ject there would not be a premature discussion, of
any thing said that might be misunderstood and
create alarm. Too much praise could not be given
to the labours of the Committee ; but he was afraid
they Would incur the imputation of blame for over
caution, though he would rather they should be
blamed for this than for precipitation. Ile hoped
the House would set themselves against the system
with all its abuses, but not let it be entertained that
the rebel' at present afforded was intended to be,
withdrawn. It was impossible, he thought, that any
person could entertain such an idea. lie would say
there was impending danger to the country from the
gradual increase in the number of paupers, who
would sooner or later absorb all the profits of the
land, and therefore he hoped the House would pre.
serve the country from ruin as well as the paupers I
themselves. He trusted the subject would be brought
gradually before the House, and undergo full and
complete discussion ; but he would say that this
country would have been incomparably happier if
the Act of Elizabeth had never passed, and the la-
bouring classes in particular would have been much
better off. There was nothing he was less anxious
to see than high price of land and low price of labour,
but if there were any thing that lie' was most au ious

to see removed, it was low wages, which 01.1
labouring classes to throw themselves on tax p„l'
This was caused by the detestable system of
labourers out of the Poor's Rates. The far
them sixpence a day, and made them cal
amount of eighteen or nineteen shillings as
the parish. There was besides a most
tem of manufacturing goods, to he sent
sale, at prices below what they could even
for, because a part of the cost was paid by
in the shape of Poor Rates, while the land
benefit from the traffic. He entreated the H,
to be led away by the view that taratien
cause of the number of paupers and higi
Nothing was more fallacious than that ta'
effected the amount of paupers, or the stn
for their support--(//ear, hear). He di
assertion altogether—(Lord cheering). \l
urged was, that persons were so impoyeri,
taxation, that they were unable to pay a
for labour. But taxation only altered the
expenditure. If the persons who paid
the money to spend, instead of distributing
the hands of Government, there would 1
greater number of paupers than there are.
sent the money raised by taxes went to eat
diers and sailors, and to pay for the makini
der, the building and repairing of ships, al
various articles of national stores. Thus
seen that Government, by means of taxation
much greater employers of labour than if
did not exist. Even persons who lived by th
of money in the Stocks, employed more hi
if they derived their income by lest direct
tain means. When the distress of the ex,
' been so much discussed, it was urged that
cipal cause of it was, that Government I
drawn itself from the market. And how
vernment employ labour at all, either i:
war, but for taxation ? He did not mean ,
a great deal of money had net been ssr
away ; but this was a minor point, and the
that taxation only tended to change the lan.,
which the money passed, instead of chef
minishing the quantity of labour.
Mr. BROUGHAM )regretted that the Hi
Gentleman bad not kept his promise of cc
prematurely into a discussion of this imp
ject. He had thought fit to enter into thi
he had exhausted it, as far perhaps as roll
he had to say upon it ; and then he brx
into the benefits of taxation—(Laughter,
hear).—On this point he had favoured
with the discovery, that taxation, howev
tied, had no effect in increasing ;he numb
pen; that where a person paid 1.0001.
made no difference whether that 1,0001.
to give to a sinecure Lord of the Admiral
out in the employment of a numLer of ;
(Laaghter).—He pledged himself again
every pan of such opinions, and he well:
pledge himself to chew that there never wa
position more fallacious or more dangere
litved ; and that this falsehood was as de'
as the self-evident nature of his last di.cc

Mr. faILNKLAND LEWIS explaine,
net appear to be a self-evident proposition
number of paupers was occasioned by ura
Mr. BROMHAM replied, that he haci
such an opinion had ever been entertabed.

Mr. CALCRAFT denied that he 1..4 c'
to say that the number of paupers was
b. 7 taxation, but only that this was a princ
thent towards it: .••• •

Mr. CURWEN said the great object .17
the mode of receiving the rates, without
never could restore the poor to their form(
dente. There was note labourer in the cc
did not pay a twenty-fifth part of his wap
alone.—The papers were ordered to be
POLICE REPORT.
Mr. HOME SUMNER presented a Pe
the Magistrates of the Epsom Division. a
of having been calumniated by the evidl
the Police Committee. It prayed for b
their conductrespecting the licensing of pul
After a short conversation between Mr.
Lord L....sautes, Mr. HOME SUMNER,
TMORYEON, in the course of which ma:
ments were paid to the Petitioners, and
served by Mr. BENNET, that certain passa
Report were in no degree directed against
Petition was ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. BENNET said be had a Petition
from a person who had been most cruelly
in consequence of the Suspension of the
pus Act, but from the undue and scandal(
which certain Country Magistrates had ex,
der the authority of the Circular Letter tr
by the Noble Secretary of State. He was
tisfied that it was not the intention of the N
that such cruelties should be exercised, as
such to which the country was unaccusta
Petition was from Jonathan. Buckley, 1r!
small bookseller's and pamphlet shop at V;
where having sold i copy of the "
printed in London, he was seized by
Magistrates, handcuffed, and confined se
in irons. Meanwhile his house was sear
though not another copy of the parodies
found in it, a number of histor.cal an,
books were carried away, several of shit
been returned. The Quarter Sessions bei+
was confined sixteen weeks, and taken ti
Sessions in a cart, ironed, and in compa,
lons. During this time his wife and fame,
duced to ruin, and obliged to receive assn
the parish. The Honourable Gentleman
mented on the different treatment receives
who was the original publisher, and who
committed to the King's Bench. Ile to
that he had another Petition to present
son similarly circumstanced. It was fix
Billing, of Warrington, who had been t
the same time, and after being confined
was assaulted by the turnkey, who gave
black eyes...—The Petitions were severally I
prayed the House, in its wisdom, to take
for preventing the recurrence of, such true
On the question for their lying on the table
Mr—BENNET said he wished to ask the
General whether, as these unfortunate pc:
stood on their own recognizances, he me,
them forward at the next Sessions ?
The ArTtIRNEY-GENER AL thought
be Kiant mistake. Their recoaMhAav=a

.sit
anoth

Pet
, In
he 1
blic;

hat
'Gestic

i ffe
becal

It
rem

• a
mose
11

ro to 2PPP2
ot ,
rater,''
Lake to
tiom
a:v„..!
it;rieektts,
mfbeco'Y'qberlilesanr:ecid°Edftit:ei;
, whether 11
:n • those p
tile' ,ree aegni
eaps?,
e A.TTOI
Rorie
°a *va give an ansv
gh barge the I
41603' have pub]
met
.0115 libels a
•
der. , he sh,
11114 . was anoth
erica duty IS to
a li,p - use the pei
;
libels in
chr4
_for het
tut •
1t E ,ch public;
3i
be r. different Ju
41
e k . such publi
•
eel* •. ~ to have
one publ
and 4.. .to make
it rat es who has
the questic
(Rh
if ..er of diffe
the • . fled. becal
halide , libels, an'
.-
:t and .. There
an L c weighed
he
it
ed, that al
t .
14;1. • licaticms w
cola did it foil,
i'.gs in delta
t 4 su ne, and ev
*c. disgustin
to be de,
le
nds .r
inst rcligii
ed to be ac
'cation in
Ho^. bstain fro
act been acqu
loran: ]could do i
le t Honourabl
alesr..;i:
u had certa
iorari into
'nista ,
Lai ow not think
the H l to let hirr
wer he had bra
be of
r. as.;.,"re :
lire, '' t icy yet ohLfe dhre ciTldai
Bess princip.:
•
aa; t ought
ut if he -had
Ad d have fel
vas ass ds correc
ems the verdicts
:moil ht contain
werv. ~ons were tr
the Govern]
)n, that . dime men
*. • • UCCIOrIf mi
tee nst them,
ieved the of
ever ^ . .er to aggr
orred state
tionally
1-1(
r. t2z_ the lader
t d, he cook
ler :11'r rthy, and
• s us considers
ix - Ir. BROU
'end in his
sting put
.
e any rem
:einp:-7 had been or
knee:, ces of the
i .
iNtry bound to
• y had no c
Er. B y might ha.
t, asz considere
any c: that if ten
it v•,o. oduced, if
;373 c • r side oft]
sat ti=,' • -cutions. '
cause of r
es toFe. •rs did, by
ly a:.- . ation of a
Hat.'..". such prose
rable Gent
ch he cons
travi which vs
'site and
N::: ch were c
s t]lnF • .nage of t
go:j. no pros;
rl:r i rat east the p<
wished tl
cal at all time
rde d CASI
seTtri''
'ns-t°b sthere dvai
meats upc
• ing Jurie
ing of ani
rd more fa
to t.e a Jury, a
e questioi
r verdict
doctrine I
a t:L3 Cft tranquilli
ej by HA it could ir
< c 4
f
roilete2kree2Ehme:::l2l;:l4_?..::FeA.:: '..S.PcetitanurNhrtkcHnieY:ltionami Honour
take:
11
1
on Num' ;
lei cc; those who
11::kr. , io for the pt
ion from 1 l
wrsas z of thoi
14„,,u: to c 'eman ha
• 44dresse.
t thee°. to those cl
LAI s'). •by their c;

. 3pp-ar ia the ourt of ng's Bpench, which
d:tgl
t,.v had done. Unless, C
therefore, these persons were
-eive the usual notice of trial within a certain
an,er of days before the Sessions, they would not
be, bound to aNET ppear.
Mr. BEN replied that this was no answer to
question. He would pat it plainer, by asking
whether he did not feel it to be his duty to dis-
, these persons from their recognizances, after
tree acquittals of Mr. Hone ?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL had no objection
:a an answer. He should not feel it his duty to
eze the recognizances of any of those persons
have published any of such blasphemous and in-
as libels as those for which Hone was tried.--7
'le should proceed to prosecute those per-
seas another matter ; but he should not forego
duty is to what appeared to him to be
„ the person charged with having published
libels in another place had been acquitted by a
,_for he had known it happen, that the offence
ogi publications had not been equally considered
different Juries ; and therefore it did not follow
such publications by other people should entitle
to have their recognizances discharged, be-
t one publisher had been acquitted. He did not
to make any reflection on the conduct of the
who had acquitted Hone, or on their verdict,
question of libel or no libel was so much a
of difference of judgment, that he was not
because one Jury thought those parodies
libels, another might not think quite the re-
, There were many circumstances that might
weighed on the minds of Hone's *Jury. It was
id, that after certain persons had told him the
)lications were improper, he had stopped them.—
: did it follow, that men vending the same horrid
.tgs in defiance of the prosecution going on against
one, and even courting prosecution while selling
it disgusting peson at the corner of every street,
to be deemed to have committed no outrage
tint religion and morality, because Hone hap-
;ened to be acquitted ?--( War, hear.) He had no
oration in saying, that he did not think it his duty
abstaia from similar prosecutions, because Hone
iad been acquitted—(krar, hear, hear.) But whether
s:Jould do it in the individual cases alluded to by
Honourable Gentleman, was another question.—
had certainly removed the petitioner's case by
tiorari into the Court of King's Bench, because he
not think it would be just towards the
indivi-
il to let him be tried before the Quarter Sessions,
he had brc ught to trial him whom he considered
the princip;:l.

Mr. LYTTLETON was glad to have this oppor-
ity of declaring the detestation and abhorrence in
ich he held those blasphemous production's. The

et ought not to alter the opinion of any man ;
I if he had attended earlier in that House, he
,f ,d have felt it his duty to contribute his mite
anis correcting the mischief that had been done
_ .

verdicts th—ose Juries had given. The petition
. contain fit matter for inquiry ; for if the alle-
AS were true, they reflected the greatest disgrace
the Government. He held it to be sound law,
r. those men who had contributed to circulate such

,ctions might be prosecuted, and verdicts given
them, but he would say, with regret, that he
eyed the effect of farther prosecutions would be
-to aggravate than decrease the evil. But he
state prosecutions that had been so uncoil-

anally ad.opted, and under which people were
ing. How far those questions might weigh
the Indemnity Bill, about to be brought for-
he could not determine ; but he thought them
-thy, and he hoped would undergs, the most se-
consideration of the House.
Mr. BROUGHAM quite agreed with his Hon.
-1 in his opinion respecting those infamous and
Ming publications, and also in not wishing to
any remark disparaging to the Juries. But if
had been on those Juries, under all the circum-
- of the prosecution, he should have felt him-
..ad to return the same verdict—(hear, hear.)
had no choice left them but acquittal, though
might have disapproved of the publications ; for
considered that the prosecutions were political ;
that if ten times as much blasphemy had been
educed, if it were possible, in publications on the
er side of the question, there would have been no
isecutions. The Juries considered that they served
cause of religion much better than those prose-
t'icrs did, by expressing their unequivocal disap-
ration of any attempt to make religion a cloak
such prosecutions—(hear, hear, hear.) The Ho-
,urable Gentleman then alluded to other parodies,
ich he considered still more disgusting and offen-
which were published when the Noble Lord
me and his colleague came into office, and
were circulated immensely under the special
of those very persons, but for which there
no prosecutions, because they were directed
IA the political antagonists of the writers. He
wished that the same measures had been dealt
at all times to all men.

Lord CASTLEREAGH really could not suffer
h observations to pass without otTering some
rents upon them. He must protest most strongly
the doctrine that had been promulgated re-
lag Juries : nothing was more liable to, or de-
ing of animadversion ; for never was a doctrine
41 more fatal to the principles of justice, than
a Jury, acting on their oaths, were to travel out
the question, and enter into political motives for
verdict (hear, hear, hear.) He had never heard
eloctn.ie so contrary to the laws, or su fatal to
tranT.iillity of the country—if it were possible
it could receive any sanction beyond the opinion
!le Honourable Gentleman (hear, hear.) BA
6:01), of Juries having a right to set themsel
;Is political partizans, was most dangerous ; and
the Honctrable Gentleman were to reflect on the
of such an opinion, it must contribute to
hen in his own estimation, as such conduct on
pia of Juries would be a high offence against
cranny. The blasphemies kr which the trials
!.:11,,(:1 place were employed to corrupt the minds
who had not the capacity to resit them,
t); the pm rose of et-adi.-:ating all respei t for re-
" breast!. If h;-: could remember any
Of tllo,e parodies on which the Hotiourahle
had commented, he thought they had not
aki,lrLsK,d to the lower orders of the people,
thne clas.•e,-. whose minds could not he affcc-
" "%1 consents. But it was against a doctrine

so monstrous and dangerous as that which had been
delivered that hs must protest.
.• . . _ .

Mr. BROUGHAM replied, that the doctrine
against which the Noble Lord so vehemently pro-1
tested, was no doctrine of his ; but his doctrine was,
that the Jury had been placed in such a situation that
they could do no otherwise than they did.
Mr. WILBERFORCE did not wish to judge at all
of the motives of the Jury: He was utterly Ignorant
of the libels, having never read them. He alluded
to the prosecution for the publication of the second
part of the Age of Reason, in proof of his opinion,
that it was not likely such prosecutions could tend to
increase the circulation of the libels; as those libels
were, before the prosecutions, in such a degree of
circulation, that it was not possible to extend them,
but after it had taken place, this circulation stopped.
After paying many compliments to the Attorney-
General for his conduct, the Honourable Gentleman
said he must confess that he (Mr. Wilberforce) had
endeavoured to have those prosecutions conducted on
such grounds, that it would have been impossible
they could appear to have any political motives. He
then entered into a severe reprobation of such publi-
cations, and concluded with declaring his opinion
that the Law Officers of the Crown would not have
done their duty if they had not interposed in defence
of the religion of the country.
Lord COCHRANE said it was incumbent on Mi-
nisters to punish those who had instigated rebellion,
as they were pleased to call it. Hone had been tried
for conimitung an offence against religion, while his
offence was solely political, and directed against Mi-
nisters.—The Petitions were then ordered to lie on
the table.

tis gouts°,
whethe
rge thes
tare•?ac
The ATE
ov: an a
barge
ho have p
,asts libc
ciether he
.35 Was an
*s
duty as
ause the
hose libels
ury—for
such pm
y different
• such p
on to hi
Ase one r
ish to ma
;tries who
et the que
es of d
ale& be
not libels,
„,.. The
jie weigh
, °red, tha
f•ut did it 1
• ings in d
lone, and
heir disgu
ere to be
* iinst oc
ened to t
csltation
0 ,thszaia
,ad been z
e s:Jould
ie Honou
e had c
•rtiorari
.1 not thi
ial to let
he had
the print
Mr. LYI
lity of de
hich he he
edict ougl
al if he
have
swards con
the verdi
*stlit conta
-.ens were
the Gove
: those rr
Iductions
most then
:eyed the
....ser to ai
horned
tionally
• rting.
,lithe In
d, he co
ani
consid
Mr. RR(
read in l
Busting
he any z
had bees
••ces of
• bound
yey had z
:ey might
ey consic
d that if
seduced
• er side
osecutioi
e cause
stuns did
•robation
ar such r
unable I
Bich he •
qe, whit
rposite a
rich wer
.Wage
ere no I
• in:t the
wishe
at at all
Lord C
obst
zur.ents
J
ing of
td mor
a Jur
'the ve:
vtrdi
doctri
' the trawl,
-it it ,ou
'
• the Ho,
:lion, of
Is pin
the Han
..deny
sr him
o
crantr
1 • ~
1f.); the
!.st
..:'
ad.ln
" tho•