Star.
London, England, 1810-05-04 00:00:00

pis pert he had not seem theta so statesi b any ntws-
r Whet he had said he believed was this, that
Nite.
tought it rather a.curious moment for the Gen.
t,,2fesel of the Opposition to spew that they rejoiced
the commitment
is of Sir Francis Burdett. He said
t- tt he had heard it stated by one Gentleman
"
anloncos them, that the occasion required them to
ernment, and from that sentiment
rally round the Gov
breez been cheered particularly by the Members on
ti r ptosjtron Benches, he was justified in assuming
• I eeneral. It bad been stated by one Honour -
e e • • ,
able Ge!ttleman. that even if his Majesty's Ministers
Iva to have hereditary offices in the Government,
the House ought to rally round them on such an oc-
casion. As that Honourable Member Was in his
lii.ncs he would correct him if he was wrong ; but
s,
Ise impression upon his mind was that he had made
use of the expression ; but as to his having said that
all the persons in that House were not honest, but the
iev who concurred in opinions with himself, he mild
se recollect his having used any such expression, and
ee was sure he had not, becense he had never thought
se; but in or out of that House, he should always
state flee!). what he thought, though he could assure
else. Itheat Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby)
new with offence towards him personally. In stat-
ing his sentiments, however, as to the conduct of
public men, he should never conceal the opinions
which he conscientirmsls, and at the meeting, alluded
to. He had doetenothing but what he had a right
to and what he should always do as an elector of
l'.'semiester. Having said so much as to the attack
ve:ch had been made upon him, he had only one
word to add and the subject of the Petition under con-
,eicsstion. He misted that _the Right Honourable
feereleman oppe ite (the Chancellor of the Excite-
gate) would pursue the same course with respect to
this as he had done with respect to the Weetmioster
Petition. In that case the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had crenented to receive the Petition, as con-
oinieee the sentiments of the Electors of Westminster.
L'he should put a similar construction upon the pre-
ore, which was the construction upon which it ought
to be received, he was sure the Right Honourable
Gentleman would have no difficulty in acceding to
rte motion that it he laid upon the table.
Mr. PONSONBY, in, explanation, stated that he
had not intended any attack upon the Hon. Gentle:.
wan. What he had said was directed against the
itaements in the newspapers, purporting to be re.
pots of the Hon. Gentlemen's speech. As he had
lose celled upon to state where he had seen thee re-
roes, he should inform the Hon. Gentleman, in the
.11. min; C;:r.^Lide and the Time: newspapers ; and also
h :whet., the name of which he did not recollect ;
bet all the accounts were nearly similar. What the
Hen. Gentleman had just stated, corroborated his
assertion that the Hon. Member had never made use
bf eenres-ions stated to have beta used by him.
Mr. WARDLE bad never seen the statements
sileded to by the Right Hon. Gentleman, and what
he had said at the meeting he had already stated in
reply in the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Sir rliN ANSTRUTHER, as the Hon. Mem-
ber seemed to have alluded particularly to him, trusted
lie should be ieduleed in making a few esvervatione.
When that Hon. Gentleman imputed to the Members
ea the opposition side of the House, that they had
sejeiced at the commitment of Sir Francis Burdett,
'he was of opinion that he should have looked rather
to their vows than to their cheers for evidence of
tieir sentiments. For himself, he was one of those
who thought the House had not exceeded its just and
constitutional privileges in that instance. How far it
Viight be desirable to exercise these privileges on any
particeiler occasion was quite another question. But
such privileges the House not only had, but ought to
have ; and without them it must soon cease to exist
as an integral branch of the legislature. The Hon.
lilenber, hi quoting the particular expression which
heivertently fell from him in the former debate,
4 old have sleeted it correctly. When he had stated
err observma}sas respecting hereditary Ministers, he
did it for the purpose of decl trine, that, if it was a
Ou between the continuance of the present
ilhiotes in office, and the existe'ice of the Consti-
tstion itself, he cellist have no doubt in preferring
even them as the Government, rather than see the
Constitution overturned. That was what be had
sail, and should still say. He should never inwever
ceasa to use all constitutional reieans to procure their
dhnihsal from office, and to induce his Majesty to
place his Governmsnt in other and abler hands. But
desirahle as he considered such a change, if it wits
to lie effected only by the destruction of the Govern-
ment itself, and of the Constitution, there he was dc-
tanned t.) make his stand, as he looked upon it as
much better to take the Government ever. as it is,
than to hazard the overthrow of all Government. It
sets in the recollection of the House that this was the
tentimeat contained in the expression adverted to by
the
Han. Gentleman, who, in quoting it, should have,
in fainoss, quoted it correctly.
Mr. W. SMITH had never felt more difficulty
even any. subject then upon the eery important gins-
ton under consideration. It enter, happened that men'
of tl!t boa intentions differed in opinion tot/ ese/s upon
teits el this description ; and in proof of this he could
rot lelp adverting to the speech of his Honourable
Trite) (Mr. Ward). That Honourable Member
had voted against receiving the Westminster Petition,
and yet thought the House was in consistency bound
s)receive this. Now in both these opinioni he must
e•ter from his Honourable Friend. He hod not only
!heed 10-receiving, but contended that the House was
halr.d to receive the former petition ; not because it
teasthe petition of the Electors of Westminster, but
i
sciuse it referred to the conduct of their Officer, and
Ilet to the cendeet of the House. But sorry as he
yeas
rdi _r from his Right Ilenourable Friend, he
enst say that he thonght this petition infinitely more
heathy; than the fornher—and in forming this °pi-
le
io he could not avoid entertaining the supposition
t•et its was intended to be so. Opinions ought to be
red gat broad distinctions,
and as he considered the
esestion respecting Sir Francis Burdett to he as yet
ease,
146s', at least in the opinion of the parties, though
n !m •
eet never come to be decided in any other tribu-
tmi but that Honse, they who were patties ought to
take care to state their opinions simply upin a ques-
t:" at issue, and net authoritatively. He was of
opinion that there was throughout this petition an en-
d• •hour to try bow far that House - would bear the
offensive Language made use of. He had not felt it
woe, ,
••• y o• eeliev,• that it was so with the Westmin-
Iterl'etiti°ll ; bgt e4ertaining such lief ou &J)is oc-

'easion, he had no alternative Gut to reject the 1,0.1
tion. He would not allow that thus to reject the pe-
tition would be to restrain the right of petitioning—
the assertion was unjust and untrue. During nearly
26 years lie had sat in that House as a Representative
of the people of England, and in. the - whole of that
period, he might have taken the unpopular, but never
had the unconstitutional side of any question—never
.had he suffered his judgment to be biassed upon any
question ley an improper bias, so as to vote contrary
to the popular opinion. He trusted therefore that after
so long a period no such bias could be now urged
against him. He had ever been, and was still, a
rfriend to the right of petition in the trite roper
constitutional mode—but the licentiousness of peti-
tioning, no less than the licentiousness of publish-
ing, ought, in his opinion, to be restrained. The
line he was pursuing ow this occasion was the
most useful, though not the 'most popular ; nor,
it any popular tumults were apprehended, the safest ;
as they who appeared neutral were always sere, in
case of a conflict, to be trampled upon and crushed
by both parties. He trusted his character would se-
cure him from misrepresentation, as to the vote he
should give upon this question, and that k would not
be supposed that he gave that vote because of any
opinion that might be entertained by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. That Right Honourable Gentle-
man had hitherto little to do, and was not likely
hereafter to have more to do, with controulinl his
vote. But here he must be allowed to remark, that
the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. NVardle), was not
correct in representing the Members of the Opposition
as having rejoiced at the commitment of Sir Francis
Burdett. On the contrary, they had voted against
that measure, and on the division there appeared no
less than 1.3'2 against the• commitment. How they
then could be stated to have rejoiced at the commit-
ment of that Honourable Baronet, was a paradox, or
rather a mistake not to be easily reconciled with any
strength of memory. As the present Petition differed
so materially from the last, they ought to reject it.—
The House was bound to maintain its dignity and
privileges; •but at the same time he must say, that
he believed that House had lost a great part of its
weight with the public ; and he feared he should add
justly, by many of its own acts. But notw•ithstand•

ing it had lost much of its weight, it was not the less
bound to•keep up its dignity and privileges. He was
of opinion that it would not retrieve the confidence of
the public till it should be reformed, yet still was it
necessary to keep up its dimity. If they Were to
give up their privileges, whilst the House was in
its present state, they would not be able to
re-
trieve them when it should come to be reformed,
as he was sure it w•)uld, and must in time. It the

House of Commons ' should not transmit its pri-
vileges unimpaired to its successors, it would not i
perform its duty to the count! v at large, for whose
benefit these privileges were given. They had been
chosen in theory, as he trusted they soon would
in practice, the Representatives of the People, invest-
ed with privileges for their good. The Constitetion
of that House, therefore, they could no surrender
without betraying their trust. As to the reform of
that House, he had himself signed retitions, praying
for that object, and should not hesitate to sign a Pe-
tition again of the same description. It would ever
be his pride to support every coesiit itional proposi-
tion for a Reform in Parliitmear. ; but he should ne-
ver be a participator wite those whose object was to
degrade that House in the eyes of the puluic. He
considered that House as the Representatives of thel
People, and could not approve of any means taken
to lower it in the estimation of the people. Here he
must say, thet he could notheip thinking the vow! of '
the other nigh: vilest unfortimate, because to tit:a was
to be ascribed a great part of the inconvenieneies
which laa.! since been felt. If the House could have
been persuelel on that occasion to adopt the mode-
rate course, he was of oFinion that all the subsequent
inconeeivieneies would hare been avoided. Ilid the
II use on many former occenions, when applied to
for that purpose, acceded to any measure of Re-
form, thci would have had the country with them is
all their measures ; because no doubt would exist as
to their motives ; being, as they would have been, the
true and legitimate representatives of the people. It
was hecaiase they were not considered in that light,
as the real aid legal, end cceetittutionel representa-
tives of the nation, that so se ash ill blood existed .
amongst the people against them. He was aware,.'
that in what he had said, he might perhaps give of-
1 !seise t both parties ; bnt he was :onscious that he
had no such intention, and should trust to their care
d •ur to acquit him of it. After what he had said,
l he should vote liar rejecting the Petition.
Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD thought that
the House should be slow in rejecting the petitions of
the people, and that it would be a most dangerous
impression fur the public to conceive that all petitions
would be rejected, the terms of which would he dis-
pleasing to the Administration of the day. Ile was
anxious to support the privileges of the House, but
he did not consider that they were involved in the
present question. He thought that it was rather in-
consistent with the dignity of that Huse to have
committed themselves, as they had done, against an
individual. He did not deny the power of this House
to commit ; but he thought that power had not been
a wisely exercised on a late occasion. He did not think
Ithat it would be consulting their true dignity to re-
, ject the petitios of the County or Middlesex on the
I present occasion ; and he thought that if they did so,
nothing more would remain for them to do, except to
declare at once that they would receive no more peti-
tious from any roe Lieu of the people. It could not
be said that it Wit', a jaCnbill langirtee, to say the peo-
ple had most undeniably a constitutional right to pe-
tition any branch of the legislature; and he tfionght
the House had no right to check or interfere with the
right cf the people, unless the lerguage of the peti- 1
tion was most evidently :pros: and insulting. There
should be nothing like an i:nprin afar set upon the esti)•
jects' right of petitioning. It appeared to him as if
Ministers had adopte4a system which would go alto-
'thee to undermine the tight of the subject to petition
—whereas he thought . that nothing but the public
voice, strongly and unaluivocelly expreseed in the
way of petition, could put it in the power of any
set of men in that House to save the country.—
He could perceive no other means by which the min-
try could be saved. He must cootess, that he could
not see any danger which Was to be apprehended in
that House from popular encroachment. He !old net
seen any effect preduce4 ewe from ytr4tr iplitwg:eir