Star.
London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

in favour of proceeding. 13at the Committee may
report either that the grounds are insufficient, or that
there are difficulties connected with the evidence
v i ch render it' advisable not to proceed. His ar-
gument on the subject of impeachment is against the
whole rractice of Parliament. I have looked 'at the
1-.4-m:dents, and I find that the proceedings by Bills
of pains and penalties are, nine out of ten df them, in
cases which might have .been matter for impeach-,J
mem I have heard the speeches of the Counsel at
the Bar, and able as they were, they did
.not contain
one word which applies to the present question. I
a..,TN with them in thinking that the Illustrious Indi-
Widiral and her Counsel ought to have time to collect
the evidence, and even that they ought to have theii
choice as to the time. But now there are no charges
commenced. All we ask is, to refer the papers to a
,'onlnnittee, in , ot der that the Committee may deter-
mine whether any charge should be preferred or not.
If the Committee determine we ought to proceed, then
z ill be the time for her Majesty's Counsel to ask delay.
The Noble Lord has alluded to the ill-credit of Se-
cret Committees, but I will not, while I can obtain
your attention, hear without opposing, any argument
grounded on clamour and discontent,
.Whether with-
oat doors or within, for the purpose of setting aside
the practice of our ancestors. He has also alluded
to the Members of the Committee. They were se
lected without reference to political opinions, as was
proper in such a case ; aniti will ask, whether any
one who has read the names, can entertain a doubt
that they will act like honest and conscientious men?
I wish to say one word upon what fell from a Noble
Baron the other night with regard to a Right Reverend
Prelate. That Right Reverend Prelate is as ignorant
of the contents of the Bag as the Noble Baron him-
self; and as for the omission of her Majesty's name
from the Liturgy, all the blame which may attach
to the advice must belong to the Executive Govern-
ment. I have now answered must of the Noble Lord's
arguments ; all I request is, that you will not be de-
terred by the cries of faction from doing what you
conscientiously think ought to be done ; that you will
refer the Papers to a Secret Committee, not to try the
individual, but to determine whether any species of
proceeding should take place upon them."
Lord ERSKINE proceeded to address their Lord-
ships. Having voted, in the first instance, for going
into the Secret Committee upon the present question,
he wished now to state the reasons that had induced
him to alter the opinian he had then entertained, not
ith respect to the general principles, but the ab-
stract merits of the case. It was impossible for him
not to consider that the subject had materially changed
its character from the first time Noble Earl op-
posite had delivered his sentiments upon it. The
Noble Lord next observed upon the difficulties of
proving an adulterous intercourse in this case, so as
to subject the parties to the penalty of High Trea-
son. Nor did he think from the arguments which he
had urged, that the Queen could be proceeded against
for a misdemeanour, upon the principle which was
laid down by the strict letter of the law in such eases.
Ile could not at any time speak of the House of
Commons but with profound respect; yet he never-
theless felt it competent to him to canvass and dis-
cuss the merits of those legislative proceedings which
that House either had or was disposed to Institute.
—There was, indeed, a strange inconsistency in the
Address voted by the House otComrnons to her Ma-
jesty, as it referred to the nature of &he charges of
which she was represented as the subject. The terms
of that Address were such as certainly made him
alter his mind upon the subject of the Secret Com-
mittee. When Ministers had omitted her Majesty's
name in the Liturgy, he naturally thought they had
some very serious accusations to prefer against her,
and therefore considered it only right that they
should be allowed an opportunity of justifying them-
selves by going immediately into the evidence in the
manner proposed. He had looked into the Act of
Uniformity upon this question of the Liturgy, and
found it expressly ordered, that the form of prayer
for the King and Queen with the other members of
the Royal Family, should be altered from time to
time, as circumstances required. The Noble Lord
now read the Address of the House of Commons to
her Majesty, which he contended, did not in any re-
spect accord with the proposition for going into a
secret Committee, as it showed that a proceed-
ing for an inquiry, whatever might be the result
as it affected the merits of the question itself,
would be derogatory to the dignity of the Crown,
and injurious to the best interests of the nation. Nor
could her Majesty by any means accede to the pro-
position contained in that Address. It could not
be expected that her Majesty would consent to
impeach her own innocence, if she was conscious of
no criminality—(Loud cries of Hear, hear, hear).—
Her Majesty's Counsel had been heard on her behalf
at their Lot dships' bar, and by them she demanded
an open trial. She had a right to make such a de-
mand; it was the privilege of the accused. He
thought their Lordships were now called upon to
consider whether should they proceed in the inquiry
t::ey were not doing an act which must, after the de-
claration made by the other House, be derogatory to
the dignity of the Crown and prejudicial to the wel-
fare of the People. His decided opinion was, that
such would be the case. The Queen consented to
give up nothing—she demanded a trial—she com-
plained that her character was defamed, and her ho-
nour insulted. Well ! what was done? Why, after,
this unaccountable delay, the House of Comrpons
pronounced a sort of verdict of acquittal, and yet
their Lordships were still determined to bring her
Majesty to trial. if the House, after having first re-
stored her Majesty's name in the Liturgy, and placed
her in that situation which was suited to her,esalted
dignity, should then think it necessary to institute
any Legislative proceeding against her, he should
not, if consistent with his duty, object to lend his
humble assistance ; but he would not now get himself
the invidious and disreputable situation of a
p-oneer to the Ministers. The Noble Lord concluded
by voting in support of the motion.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he had been
prevented, from the pressure of important business,
from giving that attention to this moss important
subject, which his anxiety desired, yet he had still
considered it sufficiently to enable him to combat, he
should hope, to the satisfaction of the House, the ar-
guments advanced by his Noble and Learned Friend
who had just sat down. The Noble and Learned
Lord then entered into a detailed examination 'oldie
:ACC .01 Edward 114 as it referred to the question

before their Lordships, and contended, that as the
charge-of High Treason Must be abandoned, the only
1 proper course to be pursued, was the one which Mi-
nisters had determined to follow, namely, a motion
for a-Secret Committee. He wished he had a voice
! which could enable him to be heard from one end Of
the country to the other, nay to the very extremities
of it, while he solemnly declared to the People that
it was a most abominable and unjust reproach tb his
' Majesty's Ministers to suppose that this question was
ever meant to be disposed of by a Secret Commitfee,
hi the offensive sense of these words. He should
never disguise his own feelings on this distressing
subject ; and he should tell his Noble and Learned
Friend (Lord Erskine) tied there was no punishment,
however severe, which he could bring him to, that
he ought not to get inflicted upon him, if he were
capable, for one moment, of losing sight of the
grand principle of equal justice, by which, through
life, his conduct had been actuated—( Hear hear).—
It was not because he did not approve of introducing
a Bill on this subject, that therefore he should shrink
from any responsibility with respect to it. But this
was not a mere question about the responsibility of
Ministers, no, it was infinitely one of more import-
ance, it was one which concerned the dearest inte-
rests of the King and Queen, and therefore the dear-
.est interests of the people. It was a question, corn.
pared with which the responsibility of Ministers was
AS nothing. He stood then as a Peer of Parliament,
and should always speak as such. He did not deny
that he had a knowledge of the nature of the
papers which the bag contained, but their Lordships
would see that it would be extremely improper in
him to disclose that knowledge, in the capacity in
which he stood. The Noble and Learned Lord, in
the course of some other remarks, vindicated the
measure of a Secret Committee, and in allusion to
the proceedings about the time of the French Revo-
lution, observed, that a Noble and Learned Lord
(Erskine) who was so generally esteemed in the
country, might not have now been alive, had it mit
been for the vigilance of Secret Committees ?
His head might have been off in the course of a week ;
but then he had heard it"said, that her Majesty did
not choose that a Secret Committee should be the
form in which the inquiry was to be gone into. Hi
had, however, a public duty to perform, and should
tell her, as he should tell any other Queen, that she
must be better defended than she could be by the
mere responsibility of Ministers. His great anxiety
was to justify himself with respect to this question ;-
and he had wished, in the language of that dis-
tinguished and upright Judge, Mr. Justice Cham-
berlin, " to make a covenant with GOD, that neither
affection, nor any other undue notion, should in-
fluence his conduct." If he was wrong, he,hoped
GOD would pardon him.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, he was bound-
to consider whether the species of inquiry now pro-
posed was consistent with the functions of that House,
or compatible with its interests. The Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack, and the Noble Earl
opposite, had done that which no individual had a
right to do—they bad presumed to determine about
the way in which the House should deal with the
question that was to be brought before them—
(Hear, hear).---The Noble Earl, early and laborious
as his life was devoted to acquiring that fund of con-
stitutional knowledge which he was so well known
to possess, had altered his opinion in some respect
upon matters relating to the usage of Parliament :
and was it not possible that some persons in the
House of Commons might have done the same, as
it regarded this question ? But the Noble Earl was
too candid not to admit, though he had not stated
the fact, that the Bag contained Papers relating
w other matters and crimes, besides that specific
crime (which respect for the Illustrious Person im-
plicated would prevent him, Lord Lansdown, from
naming). He would not be. so irregular as to allude
to language held in another place, although• he be-
lieved that the phrases which had been quoted, were
employed more than once in that place. But he
would allude to the votes of the House, to which be
was entitled, and, in the present circumstances,
bound to look. What did he there find ? Did he
find that the communication which had been made
from the Crown was dismissed ? Quite the contrary.
He found not only that that communication was still
before the House, but that a proposition to defer the
consideration of it for six months had been rejected.
Was he not thence to infer, that it was the declared
opinion of the House of Commons that the commu-
nication in. question ought to be considered ? The
Noble and Learned Lord would recollect, that there
had already been one ex- rte inquiry in this case ;it
-was notorious that her Majesty had already been sub-
jected to the extra-judicial inquiries of a Commission,
which had been sent out from this country with the
knowledge and by the advice of his Majesty's Minis-
ters, if not by the sanction of the Noble and Learned
Lord. He was not prepared to contend that that Com-
mission was unnecessary ; he was ignorant how far it
had been properly or improperly constituted ; but of
this he was sure, that the Illustrious Person for whose
benefit the whole proceedings of Parliament were pre-
sumed to be conducted, was entitled at least to say,
" Let me have no more Secret Commissions—let me
have no more exiarte inquiries"—(Hear, hear).—
The Noble and Learned Lord had said, that he was
sometimes bound, in his judicial capacity, to inter-
pose on the part of the accused party, whether the ac-
cused party consented to such interposition or cwt;
but the Noble and Learned Lord seemed to forget
that his observation could apply only to what was al-
ready settled and established by law, to what was
solemnly pronounced by the laws of the country to
be a shield of protection to the accused. Let the
Noble and Learned Lord chew him where were the
orders of this House, where the regulaticins and re-
cords—and GoD forbid that this House should be
without records for the purpose of protecting inno-
cence—where were the rules defined and laid down
which made it necessary to institute a Secret Com-
mittee, before the introduction of a Bill of Pains,
and Penalties ?_(Loud Piet 4f Hear, hear. hear).-...
If such a proceeding were intended for the benefit'
of her Majesty, she should at least be permitted to
bake her election ; and he would venture to pro-
nounce that ber Majesty Would disclaim the benefit.
which was profibeed by this House. As long at
there existed a hive of averting the public eyes from
this inqoiry altogether, and =O4 divEloati
+so painful to the Illustrious 'age eisiteern
all delay was commendable and ntcessary; but from