Star.
London, England, 1826-04-28 00:00:00

not believe that by any means a body of men coad
brought together who would have the ability to pet:
tea the country from occasional commercial revulsioit
The tlecsive franchise was a trust placed it certain
bodies for the good of the community. He should con-
tend u on principle that no injury would he sustained
by 'Lists bodies it they were for the general good to be
dektived of this trust. Yet although he maintained
this ptinciple, he did not deny that in f•ct the exercise
of the elective franchise, had become a pi ivi!ege, and
he should therefore not be disposed to resist a lair and
proper compensation. In all cases private rights were
held to be subset vient to the public good. The Noble
Lord here instanced the numerous instances in which
the House legislated upon the principle that private'
rights were to be s scrificed for the sake of public ac-
cowatedation and advantage. Was the proprietor of
a borough entitled to greater tenderness, delicacy, or
forbearance, than a poor tradesman in the Strand, whose
house was to be pulled down with nr without his consent,
for the sake of widening a thoroughfare ? If the most sa-
tted rights of property might be thus dealt with, why,
should not the same principle be eilltended to property'
in boroughs! His object was to obtain - a Government
un ler proper controill, and he trusted he should not be
met„ as on former occasions, with the dread of demo-
cratic violence, and the hosrors of the French revolu-
tion. This he considered would be bad declamation, and
quite as in iprlicahle as if in a question relating to the
privilege of the British Peerage, an argument should
be drawn limn the conduct of the tyrannical aristocracy
of Venice. or as if in 2 question upon the prerogdfives
of the British Crown, a tirade should be introduced
against arbitrary and despotic sway. Such, arguments',
would have as little to do with those questions as the'
dangers of democracy, had to do with the present. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had often said that after all the
Constitution works well. If he could be convinced of
that, whatever difficulty he might have in reconciling
it to abstract principle, he for one should not be anxious
for change. But he was convinced than it did not
work well, and that it worked so ill as to threaten the
overthrow of she Constitution. He was not going
• to advert to the Bullion question, or to any other upon
which Parliament had fallen into error. This was cot
the test which he was desirous of applying to it. The
decisions of any questions of policy, excepting such as
were between the people and the Crown, might be as
safely entrusted to the Privy Council or any other body
as to that Hdhse. But the true test was, the conduct
of that House up, n questions between the p •ople and
the Crown. He tound the House perpetu illy affirming
or denying propositions, not in unison, but in hostility
to the opinions of the people; and he inferred from this
fact, that t!.e House did not adequately represent the
people. This was Ole same argument which had been
emp!oyed by Mr. Fox at the end of the American war,
and upon this he was content to rest his case in favour
of Parliamentary Reform. These were the considera
Lions which impressed upon his mind the duty, even at
this late period of the'present Parliament, of urging
this suhject uptm the House.' They all knew the strong
disposition maniloned by the people some time ago'
• upon this selsject, and they also knew the strong coer-
cive me noses adopted to repress that disposition. If
the same cause of coercion had continued, it would, he
apprehended, have led to violent convulsions and cala-
mities. His Majesty's Ministers had, however, mate-
rially changed their course, and had in fact at last
adopted many recommendations which had repeatedly
been urged in vain from that side of the House. He
would read the Resolutions submitted to the House
in March 1817, by his Hon. and Learned Friend the
Member f t Winchelset. (The Noble Lord here read a
suing of Resolutions in favour of unrestricted com-
merce.) The Order of the Day was moved and the
House voted for it, and thus negatived the Resolutions
by a very great majority. Yet these very resoluti-ns
contain: 1:i the substance of half the measures in which
they had been engaged during the last two or three
Sessio.is. But although the present Ministers had
changed the policy of the Government, he very much
doubted whether they would be able to carry that policy
• Leo full effect with a House of Commons constituted as
the prsseat House WAS. He admitted that many of their
measures had been highly useful to the country, but yet
. not so useful as to convince him that the existing sys-
tem of sending Members to that House ought to be
preserved; He expected that in the next Parliament, if
chosen in the same manner as this had been, they should
find those oho were tent there, not by the people, but
by interests totally different from those of the people,
.. preventing the consummation of the policy which the
Ministers had begun to adopt. He.thought the great bo.
rough propri, tors would place the Ministers in that di-
, le-nsua; and no course could therefore be so advantageous
- to them, as to meet in the next Parliament the reptesenta.
tives of the people only, from whom, if they persevered in
meaon es of public benefit, they would receive that over-
powering support which nothing co ad resist; but
which he was not so sure they would receive if they now
refused to give to the people their just share in the
tepiesen.ation of the con:itry. Having stated the tea.
inns why it appeared to him that a Reform in Parlio.
me t wis necessary, before he sat down, he should
briefly explain his intentions in following• up this reso-
lution, is it met the support of the House. The mea-
sure he should pi ogose would not differ from that which
► he had pro, osed on two former occasions. He should
propose to take a hundred of the smallest boroughs,
and let them send one Member each to Parliament, in-
stead of two. The number so taken from them to be
returned by the counties, and by unrepresented towns
. which had grown ap into importance. It would be for
• the House to deal with this plan as pleased, or to
substitute any other; but that was the course which he
should recommend. Two methods of reform had been
proposed upon various occasions; the one was, to re-
model the construction of the House altogether—the
other, a partial reform, by which they should be infusing
new vigour into the Constitution. He preferred the
latter. It was ssuggested by Lo:d Chatham, adopted
by Mr. Pitt, and always supported by Mr. Fox.—After
quoting a passage from a speech in which Mr. Fox
s./, potted the ptincildes of partial reform, the Noble
lord concluded by moving, " That the present state of the repre-
sentation of the people in Parliament requires the most serious
caseiditration of this House."—(Hear, hear).
Lord ALTHORP seconded the motion. After the
admirable speech of his Noble Friend, so full of good
sense and argument, and so free from declamation, he
should not trouble the House further than to say, th it
in the present stag of the representation the people bad not that
due preponderance which secured to them the certainty of good go-
vernment. He did not mean to 'say that the people had not good
gementroent under the present Ministers, beams it was in the
power of the most absolute, Government to govern well if they chose.
(Hear). But be contended that the people bad a right to be se-
wed by the nature of their representation front the possibility of
being governed otherwise.

Mr. J. pgrasow clahßed the indulgence at.
Hoists in addressing them so eyrly, as he intended ts.
cosstrovert the pnnciptes on which the motion was
hounded. the popularitysg las Majesty's Ministers
VMS in itselri proof of the inutility of the motion; and
.
;s that popularity was obtained from the successful in
production of measures which trnefitted the people at
large, it was a proof that their of position emanated
from pure principles. He denied that the present rep-e-
-sentati•rn of the people was trot virtual Where was the
complaint unattended to by the House? What obsta-
cles lay in the way of the public voice? What measu•e,
demanded out of doors. was neglected within ? Was
not the late measure of the Member for Siatfordshite
(Mr. Lyttleton's Committee Regulation Bill) instituted
at obedience to the s ishes of those out of door., interested
in the progress of pirate Bills? The arguments of the
N,ble Lord, founded on the representative system of
France, wete defective in this— that that cyst- m seas
based s .lely in the right pf property, anJ therefore
that the benefit to be obtained from applying in-
ferences from those arguments to this country, would
requite for their success the annihilation of the pre-
sent system of this country. Brsid-s, property was
more equally divided in France than in England.
To regulate the number of v. tern, a high average of
property was neces.ary, and the consequenc- was, tha'
the interests of the lower classes, •o beneficially a id
usefully represented in that House, were completely
'excluded. In order to reform upon this system, they
must proceed to disfranchise a large body of the present
electors of the kingdom ; and he believed they kiiiew ton
'well the manner in which it worked in P:ance to wish
'for such a change. The next ptinciple of reform was
that which would place the representation upon a more
popular basis, approaching it nearer to the uniformity
of a representative democracy. An example of this
system was presented by the United States of North
America. The Hon. Member then described the nature
of the American Constitution, and contended that no
argument, as refetable to this coun ry, could be deduced
from that. The Members assembled at Washington
rather as the agents of local Sates than as Councillors
directing the complicated aff.tirs of a great nation.—
Almost all their different States had different interests,
and each man was there as an Ambassador, to grant
nothing to one local interest for which he did not gain
an equivalent in favour of his own. We, fortunately,
had no such distinctions here; the interests of the whole
community were bound up together, and it was the,
duty of the Members of that House to look only at thell
general welfare of the country. If any argument drawn
from the representative system of America could be'
carried to this country, it must rather be taken from the
C•mstitution of a single State, than from that of the
Unien. Whether the of any one of those
States would he capable of working those complicated
affairs. of a great country like this, he would not stop to
,itfcluire; but cettain he was that such an experiment hail
rever been tried. He feared he was fatiguing the House.
He had shewn that no reform could be effected, with
satisfaction to the great majority of Reformers, but a
reform upon principle; and he knew of no representa-,
tire principle but the two of which he had been
,speak-*
ing. He, then, was not prepared to change
perfect if they liked—impure if they liked—but this
efficient system by which they were assemble 1 t at
day. In the mixed character of our constitution, we
had the principle of the French system of property
controttled by a sufficient infusi n of the Amei ican
principle of democracy. That House partaking of both
those systems, and therefore particularly adapted to the
wealth and to the freedom nt the country, g ore intro-
duction to all parties and all principles, and airnitted
the expression of every opinion that could. be usetul in
the councils of the nation. To this admirably-con-
'meted syrein we owed much of our national honour,
much of our national safety, and much of the distinc-
tiou we had so long enjoyed abroad. He apprehended
ao change in the conduct of a future Parliament from
that which bad characterised the present. He believed
that few Parliaments departed much from the spirit of
their pre fecessors; and to that we owed the long career
of British policy which, with little variation, had been
gradually raising the country to its present pitch of
greatness—
" neque enim plus septima dueitur uxor
" At genus ititmortale manet multosque per annos
" Stat Fortuna domus et avi numerancur avorum."

it was this perpetuity of principle that be wished to preserve. He
was not blind to the incongruities of the system; but he feared lest
In attempting to remove those parts which appeared defective. be
might destroy the whole. He could see the inconsistencies which the
Noble Lord had pointed out ; but although the fabric of our Consti-
tution might not be formed upon the principles of Grecian uni-
formity, but rather partook the character of Its own proper Gothic,
he must yet stand in awe and admiration of its grandeur, for he
dared not approach it with the hand of specious reform (Cheering.)
Mr. ROSS (of Oxford) objected, not only to the pro-
position oa its own demerit, but to the manner in which
it was supported by its different advocates, and to the
inconsistent reasoni kwhich they produced, and which
he confessed himself m many cases unable to under-
stand. The Hon. Gentleman then pr. ceeded to shew,
by rtfcrence to several old Parliaments in George the
First and Second's time, that the Crown bad more in-
fluence in the 14 'use of Commons thin at pre-ent, and
then c,-ntended, whatever influence the Crown had, k
was more than counter b slanted by the influence of the
people. The Noble Lord most be aware, that the
people bassi a great power over tie House, though in
many cases they did not participate in the return of
Members to it. Opinion ant of doors must find its,
way within, and have its effect there also. And the
Noble Lord knew too well that what occurred there
was disseminated over the country the succeeding day,
to apprt bend that the watchfulness of the people over
the House would ever be suspended, or be attempted to
be evaded. As to what had been levelled at those who
came into the House, representatives of their own pro-
perty, he would only answer, that he rejoiced to see
hereditary rights upheld, and he hoped even to see it
form a part of their representation. Bit the influenceof
b .roughs in the Howse was greatly misunderstood. It
should be recollected. that many Gentlemen at the opposite side
were indebted to them, as a passport to their seats. He did not
regret that the tact was so, as be was proud that such a medium
should be given of introducing talent there.
Loud GLENORCHY approached this question with
great distrust, and could hardly hope, after the recent
decision of the H 'use respecting the representation of
Scotland, that the present motion would meet with
greater success. Those who opposed reform as a general
measure, were in the habit t•f admitting, that if any spe-
cific case of abuse should be adduced, the /louse would
listen to it ; and yet when so flagrant a case as that of
Edinburgh was brought forward, they refused in inter-
fere until some act of criminality on the part of the elec-
tors. It appeared to him, that all which was necessary had
been proved in that ease, but the House thought other-
w ise,and the grievances of Scotland were left to their fate.
They were told, indeed, that Scotland benefitted by the

the pppuhr spirit wbich pTev, ikd in Eng '
and the *hole argnmeat of tlPOse who oppose
inquiry on th# oceasioti was, Nat the.aotmd par
!. made up (mil& lied etewhere. No hope being
left of ob•ainineedress in any crse of detail, •he wa
glad to, see the present question brought before the
House on general principles. It appeared to him in the highest
degree walk and absurd to refuse to provide a remedy against an
evil which might be likely to exist because it had not yet been felt.
ft was as if a man should persist in keeping company with thieves
and villains, only because he had never yet found their hands in his
pockets. (A laugh). The Noble Lord concluded with declaring
that he would give the motion his cordial support. (near).
The Gallery was about to be cleared for a division, when
Mr. HOBHOUSE thought 'the Nob e Lot d entitled
to great prise for the moderation which he observed in
deAling with the subject before the ll•use. He had told
them, that when people were in t' e company of thieves
and villains, they were net bound to defer their com-
plaints till they felt strange hands in their pot kets. The
expression was rather hard to he sure, but yet as an ii.
lustration, it was just, and he (Mr. Hohhonse) would
go farther and say that the English people had actually
found the hands in their pockets. He had frequently
spoken on this subject, and th•ugh his exertions had not
*trailed to effect the object for which they were designed,
he was yet hound in the language of the old Scotch
Reformeis, to is testify." The Ho I. Member for New-
castle-under-Lv me saw the phencrmeni of the times
quite differently froiii him, and used languAge much like
to that which O: id put into .he month of a P.igan Deity :
Nitor in adveraun ; tom me, catera, vincit
Impetus • et rapido contrarlus evekor stbi.
The Honourable Gentleman went against the current of
opinion, which swayed most of the Members of the
House, and which he doubted not would eventually
bear 114 n down. To the talents and high attainments
of the Honourable Gentleman he bore unequivocal tes-
timony. a Minas, noster essd," said he—Would that
he were on our side, and that we had the advantage
of his powerful assistance. The Honourable Gentleman
seemed to think there was something new in the Insti-
tutions of America, and this was the conclusion with
which he (Mr. H ,blrouse) quarrelled. It should n•-t
be forgotten, that the Americans had learned to be
what they were from the free spirit of our Constitue
don which they inherited. It was not in America that
they learned democratic principles of Government; they
only fought over again the battles whioh our ancestors
fought at the perio.l of the Revolution, as well as at
many former periods. Our Penns, our Hampt'ens, and
our Seldens, were those nut of whose book the Ame-
ricans took a leaf to inform them, that there was no se-
curity for good government but in a fair repre. rotative
systeM. The Hon. Member for Newcastle-undet-Lyme
had said there were only two modes of Reform to pursue;
the first of which-was the French system of property,
arid the second, the American plan of democratic repre-
sent ition. Now as to the first, it was not the fact that

in France property was the basis of representation. It
was indeed its apparent basis, as it was here also; but
in France the returning officers, if he might so name
them, were really under the controul of Government.—
The elections there were the point to which Government
dirtcted its particular attention, and fix the purpose of
crushing the aspi•ations of the people after liberty—to
use a metaphor, which he had employed before—he
took a leaf from E gland's bo••k. The system of op-
pressi n in France did not arise from the Aristocracy,
it succeeded only because there was no Aristocracy to
oppose its progress. To cut the At i,tocracy of a country
into shreds was never advantageous to the cause of
freedom, as was evident in the ca•e of France.—

•
There the grossest bribery prevailed, not indeed in
so complete a Way as here, because we had net lived
so long for nothing, but had availed ourselves of the
doe:tit:es of our Walpoles and Pelham: of forn:er days.
We did n:it, it was true, break d•ts n bridges or stop
fences to prevent electors from passing, for we knew
how to manage matters better and .more speciously
without having recourse to those overt acts. The H .n.
Gentleman had appealed to the authority of his (Mr.
Hobhouse's) Hon. Colleague for the purity of the House
as now constituted. It was not, however, about the
House, but about the opposition which sat in it, that his
Hon. Colleague spoke, when he v ,uched for its purity
of character. The Hon. Gentleman also asked whether
the House was less pure or more corrupt now than at
any former time. He really did hot know how it could
be more corrupt: the Ministers were always sure of
hiving a majority, and what more did they want 1 It
was adduced by the Hon. Gentleman in proof of the
purity of the House that the salary I 4 tely proposed for
the President of the Board of Trade had been withheld.
In this he sheaved that he agreed in the public opinion
which prevailed on that subject; but he gave a pretty
character us the majority, who voted upon that goes-
:ion. That very vote he would challenge as a complete
instance of corruption. Of eighty-seven Members whe
voted with Ministers, thirty-eight had salaries under
Government, ten more were connected with the former
by ties of blood, and there was only one County Mem-
ber in the whole majority. It might be a reason why
the County Members had not lent their aid that this
was the last Session of the present Parlian ent ; but if
another Session remained, the case might have been
very different. A Parliament during its last Session,
fn quently resembled a repentant sinner on a death bed,
who, as Swift said, after a life spent in iniqui:y, was
willing to sacrifice to GOD the leavings of the devil.—
Before they departed this Parliamentary life, they
generally desired to show souse signs of g-ace, and after
voting against the people throughout the early part of
their career, they thought it advisable to vote for them
towards the close, previous to their dissolution. It was,
urged by the Hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Line,'
that if they did not adopt either the American or the
French plan of Reform, there was no other plan for
them to adopt. But he could assure the Hon. Gentle-
man that such was not the case: they had a plan of
their own, independently of either of those named. Nay,
there were many plans : the Hon. Member for Durham
could propose one; he could himself propose another;
and many Hon. Members had each his particular plan to
suggest. The Hon. Gent. introduced-a flourishing quota-
tion respecting the "mei avorton." But then those who
went before us had a different sort of representation front
that which exists at present. It was ne .ssary that the
couatry should not be deceived on a subject of such
importance. No one should be allowed to believe that
England never had a proper representation. According
to the statement of the Hon. Member for 0. ford, the
nomelectors of this king&im in the mass were possessed
of no property whatsoever, and were quite undeserving
of consideration. This was a proposition so exceedingly
odd and absurd, that it was a pity they (the Opposition)
could not see the smile which must have played on
the countenances of the Right Honourable bentlemen
opposite, while they were thus instructed. In fact,
it was the great objection, that while the orulent ma
nufacturing interests of the country—while Such towns

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