Star.
London, England, 1820-06-10 00:00:00

NAVY ESTIMATES.

The House having resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of Supply,
Sir G. WARIIENDER moved, that a sum of
£1,980,566 be further granted to his Majesty, for the
purpose of defraying the Ordinary Expenses of the
Navy for the year 1820.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that among his other
objections to the Estimates of the present year, he
had to enter his usual protest against the continuance
of two Junior Lords of the Admiralty, whom he had,
on former occasions, shewn to be superfluous. He
was sorry to find, on looking at the Establishment of
the Victualling Office, that it was precisely on the
same footing as it was in the year 1815. The same
remark applied to the Navy Board, in which there
was only an apparent, and not a real reduction.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, with regard to,
the first point in the Honourable Baronet's speech, it
would not be necessary to go into discussion. He
explained that the situation in which the Clerks of'
Captains of Ships were placed, resembling in some,
respects that of a servant with his master, being re-
movable at his will, rendered it necessary that they
should be allowed greater indulgences than in many
other appointments ; it was to be remembered they
had not, like Officers, half-pay attached to their
retirement.

Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, he was sorry to ob-
serve how weary the House seemed to be of that
stale and impolitic subject of discussion—the expen-
diture of the public money ! People were allowed
to chatter as much, and as long as they pleased on
matters of this nature, without meeting with much
attention from those for whose edification they were
speaking. From what the Hon. Baronet who spoke
last said, at least as he understood him through that
haze Of noise which existed in the House, it appeared
that the two Junior Lords of the Admiralty only
cost the nation £3,000; but even this, he thought,
was worth saving, if it was not required for indis-
pensable services—(Hear, hear).—With regard to the
Superannuation and Pension List, that, in his opi-
nion, was far from being satisfactory. His. Hon.
Friend near him (the Secretary to the Admiralty),l
in one of his consolatory speeches, had told them
that £lOO,OOO might be saved to the nation by what
was styled, in modern language, " ceasing to existl"
—(Laughter)—But the only worm which never died
was, the public expense! The Right Hon. Gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) always smiled at
his observations ; but he could assure him, that unless
he contrived, somehow, to lay up treasures for them
in Heaven, they had no chance of enjoyment, as
there appeared to be none for them on earth !
( Hear, hear ! and laughter).—They were completely
eat up with Superannuation and Pension Lists. By
the system pursued respecting them we were doubling
and quadrupling every office in the State!—( Hear).
There were, for instance, two or three Lord Chancel-
lors to be seen walking about ;—there were three 07
four Extra Commissioners of the Victualling Board
Aso; and many other instances of a similar kind.—
Although he was a great advocate for economy, he
could not approve fif the feeling which had dictated
the laying down of the Dock-yard at Halifax : it
produced but a trifling saving, and, in his opinion,
was for a very ill-advised purpose—(Hear, hear).—
The yard was situated in the midst of our greatest
enemy—at least those who were capable of causing
us the most trouble. They were civil enough at
present, it was true. He did not know how far that
state of things might be owing to the circumstance
of there being no money in either of the Exchequers
of the two countries!—( A laugh).—With regard to
the amount of the saving, it was nothing when com-
pared to the expenses which a certain great building
in this country (the Admiralty) required for keeping
in repair alone—that cost three or four times as
much—(Hear, hear).—Under the head of Gibraltar
it would be found that there was a sum of £4,600
charged for the building • of a wharf in the water,
for the protection of gun-batteries. This item would
be found regularly at its post in the Navy Estimates
since the year 1802 to the present time; but strange
to say, the said wharf had never yet niadeits appear-
ance above water. With all due deference, he must
be allowed to say, that he could not look upon it as
any better than an absolute job—the money had
plainly gone into the pockets of some one=-(Hear).
—Now, that he had made an Opposition speech, he
would, by way of amendment, say something on
the other side of the question—(Laughter).—With
regard Co Sheerness Yard, he would tell the Hon.
Baronet (Sir M. W. Ridley) that the sum charged in
these Estimates was totally distinct from that voted
formerly for the constructing of basins, &c. and he
had no doubt, as the affair was now in the good
hands of an Hon. Friend of his, it would be cou-
ducted in a very exemplary manner. Whilst he was
on this subject, he wished to make another remark.
Ile was, the °tinr day, at Sheerness, when a thun-
dering order came down to diicharge forthwith all

the navigttors employed in the Dock-yards! The
House should be told, that a navigator signified a
fellow who went about with a wheelbarrow and a l
shovel in his hand !—(Laughter).—ln place of those
navigators, 200 in number, were substituted an equal
number of convicts, taken from the hulks in the
River. It sounded, no doubt, very well, that we
made this good and-salutary use of men whose lives
were forfeited to the country—but let them look at
the danger of it. By putting on the convicts, they
drove 200 honest men out of employment, who, not
knowing which way to turn themselves, or what to
do for their maintenance, were naturally desirous to
become convicts also ; and asked whether it were
not possible for the Secretary of State to make them
that privileged class of beings? He (Sir J. Yorke)
might as well ask to be made into a Maid of Honour
—(Loud lartihing).--,The question, however, of these
poor men was not extraordinary, for the fact was,
that rogues and felons were of late much better pro-
vided for in this country than honest industrious
men ; for what a bustle bad we about the building
. and improvement of jails and the construction of
Penitentiaries; vet we had 1,500 convicts employed
on our coast, who would "rader go.to Bolton-house
Bay in de Vest Indis"—(A laugh.—Yet those con-
victs werestaken such peculiar care of, that if, upon
being Liken out to work, a cloud appeared, one of Mr.
Capper's men immediately exclaimed, "Bring them
pack ; it is likely to rain."—EHere the Hon. Member
happened, by a movement of his arm, to strike off
the hat of a Member near him, to _whom he apolo-
gized, stating that a man was never attended to on
subjects of this• nature, unless he spoke with vehe-
mence. He then sat down amidst tumultuous shouts
of laughter.)
Sir BYAM MARTIN said, that with respect to
the employment of the convicts at. Sheerness, it was
dictated by the best feelings and intentions. By the
arrangement thus made, the convicts were kept from
carrying on those mischievous pursuits and objects
which, when left to themselves, contributed to con-
firm them in their bad practices and principles.—
Since they had been employed on the works, they
went back to their ships sufficiently fatigued to oblige
them to go to bed rather than sit up and continue
their bad practices. They were allowed 3d. a day
for the work, being' half of the whole sum allowed
them, the remainder being laid up to be given to
them when they were discharged from the hulks, by
which means a provision was formed for them, which
obviated the evil of their being left without any
means of subsistence, which was the inducement of
so many to return to their former mode of life. -
Mr. HUME compared the Estimates of the pre-
sent year with those of former periods. In 1818 the
total amount of the Navy Estimates was £2,480,000;
in 1819, £2,483,000 ; and in 1820 it was again
£2,480,000. He did not therefore see where Was the
diminution boasted of by the Honourable Baronet.—
As he did not find there was any reduction on the
gross amount, neither could he discern whether there
was any on the minor charges. Men he looked at
the Navy Pay Office, he was surprised to find there
was so trifling a difference of expense in the Esta-
blishment, at a time when there was only six millions
to pay, as when we had twenty-two millions to pay.
IHe thought a little more attention ought to have
' been paid to the Report of the Naval Committee
than had been on this and every other branch of
Naval expenditure. In the sixth year of peace, the
House had aright to expect a much larger reduction.
He asked whether the House would continue the
Establishment on the same footing as when there
were 145,000 men employed, now that there were
only 23,000, including Marines ? The Report of the
Committee he had alluded to, said, the whole world
had only 169 ships of war—we had 594 sail of ships
of war. He entfeated the House to consider whether
the great expense was not disproportioned to the cir-
cumstances of the country ? and again enforced the
necessity of economy. He then adverted to the -cost
of alterations in the Yards, which amounted to
£1,500,000; but expressed himself not certain that
there were not sufficient reasons to be adduced in
support of it. The economy he recommended was in
the large establishments and high salaries, not in the
subaltern departments.

Sir BYAM MARTIN contended that a very con-
siderable reduction had taken place in the Navy ;
374 ships had been sold, and 160 broken up, making
in all a reduction of 534 ships. In fact, it was sup-
posed that the reduction had been too hastily made.
We had, however, a formidable and efficient fleet
ready for any emergency. It was necessary that we
should have such a fleet at all times and under any
circumstances, however favourable to the continu-
ance of peace. It would surely be idle in us to dis-
mantle ships that were capable of service for three
or four years. The Honourable Member on the other
side ought to have formed his scale upon the years
after the American war, and not upon those he had
chosen, when events had taken place which must
necessarily have occasioned a considerable increase
of expenditure. He should himself take the years
from 1782 to 1792, which he thought would be a
more fair way of coming to a just conclusion.--
During that time the people worked in the Dock-
yard three hours a day extra, and the consequence
was, that 75 sail of the line and 78 fiigates had been
fitted out, a number never knows before. The Hon.
Member then proceeded to state the estimate of ex-
Ipense for building ships at that time, which was
1E2,000,000, calculating the respective prices of dif-
ferent species of timber. Oak was thell €2.5 a ton,
now it was £45 ; fir was then £2 a ton, now it was
£7 ; so that the gross amount of expense for ship-
building was now doubled. Sixty-eight clerks had
been discharged from the Navy Office, and the same,
number from the Navy Pay Office. No reduction'
could possibly take place in the number of Commis-
sioners, because they were essential to 'the constitu-
tion of the Naval Establishment. In fact, if the
proper number were kept up, there ought to be two
more in addition to those employed. The whole
amount of saving in thele two offices was £38,000.
Sir F. OMMANEY maintained, that so far from
any reduction of seamen being necessary, the num-
ber had been already too much diminished. This tact
must appear evident to any Honourable Member in
the House, who was at all conversant with naval af-
fairs. He needed only to-visit any guard-ship in the
service, when he should find that it could not supply
as many men as would man a boat in an officer-like
manner. He had numerous relative... onnect-rd with ,

•
the service, Who could verify the thith of the snee-
I meat he had given.
Mt. TIERNEY and Sir ISAAC COFFIN rose at the
' same time, but the latter being in possession of the
Chair, was allowed precedence.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN would not detain the Com-
mittee at any length: He had but A short si e .ch to
make, and it should be a Ministerial one.—(A taegh)
35 an Honourable Meinh?r on his side of the Howse
had already made an Opposition speech—(.4 Itiughj.
He thought that all the affairs of the Navy could not
be better conducted than they ‘sere—(La tighter).
My. TIERNEY was of opinion, that debating on
Estimates of this nature, was doing little more than
wasting the time of-the House, which might other
wise be much better employed. He hoped that the
honourable and gallant Admiral who professed to
make an Opposition speech, would confirm that
speech, by giving, upon the occasion, an Oppositior?
vote!—(A laugh).—lle should, himself, not have risen
in this instance, were it not for a Petition which haj,
been put into his hands a month by two Ladies,
the subject of which was connected with the Navy.
The Petition was of a most distressing nature, and
such as must affect the heart of every man who had
the interest of humanity and the honour of his coun-;
try at heart. The Ladies from whom it came, were
the daughters of a Gentleman who had once lived in,
affluent circumstances in Cornwall, where he had
served the office of High Sheriff of the County. He
had had nine children, seven sons and two daughtersi
Six of the sons he educated for the Navy, and it so
happened that they all died in that service. The
other son, who had got into the Artillery, was now
the only remaining hope of his a; icted sisters, to
whose support he contributed out of the scanty
amount of his pay. But it was the will of Pnovi-
DENCE that he should also be taken away, and with
him everything on earth that the two poor Ladies
had to look to. They petitioned the Duke of York
as the only resource that suggested itself, stating that
they sought some provision as being the sisters of
seven ofhcers wh9 had died in the service. This led
to an inquiry into the nature of the service in which
the brothers had been engaged, and after all manner
of details had been gone through, it was found that
the brothers who had been iii the Navy, had died of
the fever and other diseases, while he who had served
in the Artillery lost his life by some sudden coin-
plaint with which he was seized at Gibraltar. IThe
Duke of York then, acting no doubt for the best in-
terests of the service, thought it his duty to refer
the two poor Ladies to the Admiralty, all the bro-
thers except one having been in the Navy. But here
they could obtain no relief, the Admiralty having no
disposable fund *for the purpose.—(The Rip ht Hon.
Gentleman then read a letter from Lord Melville,
expressing his Lordship's regret that the Petitioners
could not be assistet:, from the want of a specific
fund, applicable to such cases].—The Petition had
been sent to the Admiralty in 1816 ; and from drat
time, till the day when the Petition had been put
into his hand, the poor women were left to pine in
the greatest poverty. Believing their cage to be de-
serving of the most prompt attention, he had lost no
time in applying to an Honourable Gentleman oppo-
site, and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, from
both of whom he experienced the greatest willingness
to take it into consideration. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer evinced the most liberal conduct, for he
immediately undertook to get-the names of the poor
Ladies entered on the Civil List, so strongly did
their afflicting case strike him. He (Mr. Tierney)
hoped that the country would not suffer its favourite
service, the Navy, to be injured, by neglecting those
whose near relatives had fallen in it. He understood
that difficulties had arisen in the Nairy in making
provision for the sisters of nifficers, as was done in
the Army at one time, but which he understood was
not now the case in either service, both being on the
same footing in this respect. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman concluded by professing his readiness to sup-
port any measure that might be introduced for pro-
viding the Navy with a fund, to be applied only in
cases where the parties were objects worthy pf relief.
The CH.ANCELLOR- of the EXCHEQUER
thought the observations of the Right Honourable
Gentleman tended to effect a complete revolution in
the system upon' which the affairs of the Navy were
conducted, and which did not extend 'relief beyond
the
owuwegvihfeetr ot
‘ofr
at hbs
eea
ldi nweds
eai
yynsi del uidba.
el
r.
al'4'hl;ee
bAe bonsrtumo wyr ye
adonfwd the:Ne reaCv
iryto
was
however,
ad
a Compassionate Fur*, and the contribution from
that Fund, with the bouncy of the Crown, gave to
the Ladies alluded to a pension of £5O a year.
Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY moved, as an
Amendment to the Resolution, ‘4 That a sum not ex-
ceeding £1,978,000 3s. 11d. be given for the purpose
specified."
The Amendment was negatived, and the original
Resolution agreed to; as was also a Resolution for
granting £1,591,480 for the building and re-build-
ing of ships, and for wear and tear in his Majesty's
Dock-yards.
,Mr. Home, Sir G. WARRENDER, and Sir F.
Oat-
MANEY, made each a few observations upon this Re-
solution, with regard to the expense of the Trans.
port Establishment at Cowes, in the Isle ef Wight,
which Mr. Hume said ought to be abolished, there
being one, already at Portsmouth; while the two
latter Honourable Members defended it, as necessary.
The next Resolution that passed was for granting
a sum of 1:359,500 for provisions for troops on Fo-
reigA Stations. ti
A Resolution was moved for granting £644,920.
in support of the Transport Service.
Sir JOSEPH YORKE Wished to know what haci
been done with respect to the pension to Sir Robot
Seppings, who had so well deserved it—whether*he
had touched the cash or not?—(,4 laugh).—He had
heard that same delay had occurred, in consequence
of a representation made by Mr. Harrison, though
that Gentleman had himself received £3,000 more
than he was entitled to.

Sir BYANI 3IARTIN bore testimony to the eni%
near services of Sir Robert Seppings, which cook!
not be too highly rewarded, as be had saved mil-
lions to the Navy,
Another Honourable Minims spoke briefly to the
same effect.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that-a communication had taken place on the subject
between the First Lord of the• Admiralty and the
Treasury Department, and that in consequence
arrangement was made, which, he understood, v•• 15

I

about to be carried into effect. Resolution agreed to.
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered
to be received on Mond
IEISII COURT OY CHANCERY BILL.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Irish
Court of Chancery an having been read,
Sir JOIII NEWPORT took occasion to animadvert on the
vLry great expense attending proceedings in that Court: lie
said, that where the St.!te imposed a tax of !me shilling the Of-
-s:ers imposed a tax of three shillings.
The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be commit-
ted on Friday next;
Sir JOHN NEWPORT added, that there were provisions
in the Bill which he would oppose, because they were at direct
iariance with the Report of the Commissioners..
Mr. CHARLES GRANT said, he would be prepared to
,ii‘port those provisions when the question shoold come before
Committer.
'[hr Irish Exchequer Chamber Bill was read a third time,
puled.

WAYS •AND MEANS:

and be could not make it onto It seemed that a pi-O,
vision had been made for appropriating the growing
amount of the Consolidated Fund. His Honourable
Friend had noticed this, and had observed that the
growing ammint might be made productive and use-1
ful to the Public. In consequence of his representa-
tion a Bill had been brought in some time ago; to
enable the Public to make use of its growing amount,
by which it was provided, however, that they should
not borrow more than 06,000,000 from it. But. it so
happened that this growing Consolidate/ Fund was
not equal to the discharge of the advances that had
been made on it in the preceding Quarter. He would
thus explain himself :—Supposing this was the begin-
ning of the Quarter, that the public accounts were
made up, and that there was a deficiency of £3,000,000;
the Bank, in the first instance, made this goad; and out
of the amount of the Consolidated Fund in the com-
mencing Quarter the Bank was repaid those1.1;000,0(X).
I Supposing, over and above this sum of £3,.000,000,
an equal sum accrued, the Public, under the Act,
would, he understood, have the advantage of those
£3,000,000, since, by its provisions, a sum of
£6,000,000 might be borrowed for the public ser-
vice. This was the system; but how, he asked, was
it possible that the Public could have the advantage
of any part of this growing fund, when, in facts it
was in debt ? It was exceedingly difficult for him
to comprehend this. In April, 1819, there was a
sum of £2,027,000 so issued for the use of the Pub-
lic ; and it was stated that from that period to April,
1820, the Public had the benefit of that money.—
But how could they have the use or benefit of it out
of a growing Consolidated Fund, on which there
was no surplus whatever, but which, on- the con-
trary, was in debt, and which debt amounted to
more than the £6,000,000 which they were by the
Act of Parliament empowered to borrow ? As he
could not understand this, he would be obliged to
the Right Hon. Gentleman to inform the House
whether the Public had really derived advantage
from this £2,027,000, from April, 1819, to April,
1520 ?—(Hear, hear).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in the first place he entirely concurred with
the Honourable Member (Mr. Ricardo) in applying
the principle of competition to all contracts for the
Public, wherever it could be safely introduced. There
might, however, be cases where it would not be prac-
ticable to adopt the system. As a general principle,
it was a good one, and in a variety of instances it
was adopted by Government. With respect to the
Honourable. Member's remark relative to the ad-
vances made from the Consolidated Fund to the pub-
lic service, he would under stand the matter better by
a reference to the 59th of George 111. cap. 93, than
from any explanation which he could give. He
would, however, briefly answer the Hon. Member's
observation. It had been a frequent complaint of
different Members in that House, that a great profit
was made by the Bank, by holding in their hands
the growing produce of the Consolidated Fund, with-
out any corresponding advantage being derived by
the Public ; and various plans were devised to enable
the Public to make use of their own money during
each current Quarter. In 1808, an arrangement was
in consequence entered into between the then Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Perceval) and the Bank
for the advance of £3,000,000 without interest, in
consideration of the advantages which they derived
from those balances. This arrangement, after sub-
sisting for some years (for it was stipulated that it
should remain in force till a certain number of years

On the Motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Excnt-
OVER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of
the whole House, to consider farther of the Ways and
Mean towards raising a Supply to be granted to his
I.llajesty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
stated, that he should not have occasion to trespass
long on the attention of the Committee, it having
been generally understood, in casequence ofi former
arrangement, that he should defer any specific expla-
nation of the finances of the present year until Friday
next, when, on submitting to the House certain Re-
solutions respecting the Sinking Fund and dm Loan,
the Supply, and the Ways and Means, be would enter
fully into the subject. All he had now to do was,
to state the terms of the Loan that had been con-
tracted for on the present day. In recommending
its confirmation to Parliament, he must observe, that
it was one of the most advantageous bargains ever
concluded between the Treasury and the Contractors.
The price of Stocks had this day coincided precisely
with what it was when the Loan was contracted for
last year; and though last year there was an extra-
ordinary degree of competition, the competition was
sn;l greater on the present occasion. The Contract,
in this instance, was a half per cent. more(avourable
t.-• the Public than it was in the former year, although
tl•e price of the Funds was in each case the same.—
The 3 per Cent. Reduced Annuities were now, as
they were last year, at 69. The last price, before
that Stock was shut, was.7oi, from which if they de-
ducted the July dividend of per cent. k reduced
it to 69, which was the present price—the same price,
even to a fraction, which the S per Cent. Annuities
bore last year. The Contract for the Loan of last
year amounted to £142. 18s. per cent. in the present
year the Contract was concluded at £142. 4s. per
cent. being 14s. in stock, or 10s. in money, more fa-
vourable than the preceding Contract. Considering
it by the ordinary calculation of the price of Stock,
the Contractors had taken the Loan at nearly two per
cent. above the current price of Stock, which was
highly beneficial to the Public. At the same time
that the bargain was so favourable to the Public, he
thought it was one that would produce a fair profit
to the Contractor. lie was sure it must be the wish
of the House that it should produce a due degree of
profit to the Contractor—(Hear, hear)—and, indeed,
It was advantageous to the Public that it should do
so. Looking to the small amount of the Loan, the
bargain was almost as favourable as had ever been
concluded by the Treasury. Under these circum-
stances, he considered it unnecessary for bins to take
up the time of the House ; and he should, therefore,
move-4I That it is the opinion of this Committee,
that, towards the Supply to be granted to his Majesty,
the sumof 0,000,000 be raised by Annuities."
Mr. GRENFELL expressed his approbation of the
Loan, which was undoubtedly very favourable to the
Public. It was always an evidence of a beneficial
contract when the premium was moderate. The
Right Hon. Gentleman was, however, mistaken when
he said that this was the most favourable Loan that
had ever been concluded. Other Loans had been
more favourable, with reference to the existing prices
of the Funds when they were contracted for.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER cer-
tainly did not mean to refer to the present Loan as
the most favourable that had ever been concluded ;
but undoubtedly he considered it to be one of the
most favourable. He had I:3 recollection of a higher
relative price of the Funds except in one former year.
Mr. RICARDO observed, that the present Loan
was made on vary satisfactory terms. It was impos-
sible, he thought, that it could be obtained at a more
favourable rate. He, however, traced those favour-
..ble terms to the recommendation of an Honourable

Friend (Mr. Grenfell), who, some years ago, had ad-
v:sed that- the Commissioners of the National Debt
Lliould be allowed to subscribe for the Loan to the

after the war), expired last year. It was then thought
advisable that the growing produce of the Consoli-
dated Fund should be applied in a different manner,
a statement being made by the Bank that the public
money lying in their hands was so small in amount
as not to warrant them to continue the advance of
£3,000,000 without interest. In lieu, therefore, of
the former arrangement, by which the Public had
the use of £3,000,000 without interest, a Bill was in-
troduced, to enable the Treasury to borrow from the
Consolidated Fund to the extent of £6,000,000, the
s
use of which the Public were to have without interest.
This was to be paid in any particular Quarter, and to
be renewed at the commencement of the next Quar-
ter; so that, instead of its being a permanent, it was
a running advance. To prevent the disadvantage of
anticipating too large a sum before the Quarter, it
was provided that the advances made by the Bank
under this Act, together with other advances to cover
any deficiencies, should not exceed £6,000,000; and
as the advance made by the Bank amounted to
£3,400,000, that sum, and £2,600,000, making a
gross amount of £6,000,000 remained from that time
to tie present available to the Public. From that
period to the present time, the Public had had the
benefit of £2,600,000 in Exchequer Bills, from which
they deiived very considerable advantage.
Mr. GRENFELL said the Right Hon. Gentle.
man, he WAS sure, would recollect that, in the com-
mencement of the Session in the month of February,
1819, a question arose, during the discussion rela-
tive to the Bank Balances, whether the sum of
£18,000,000 should not be applied to the public ser-
Tice. In consequence of that inquiry the 59th of the,
late King was introduced. But he had never yet
been able to understand how a sum of £6,000,000,
or of £2,600,000, had been, in point of fact and
practice, made available, so as to save the Public in-
terest on that amount of money. He understood
from the 'light Hon. Gentleman that £2,600,000
were taken from the growing produce of the Conso-
lidated Fund, for the service of the Public ; but it
now appeared that Exchequer Bills to that amount,
and bearing no interest, were lying in the Teller's
chest in lieu of this available sum. But how did it
happen that this amount of Exchequer Bills re-
mained stationary? The Consolidated Fund must
vary every Quarter: it might be six, or seven, or
eight millions; but still this sum of £2,600,000 con-
tinued stationary. He had referred to, and read at-
tentively, in the course of the last week, the Act to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman alluded, and he
thought the practice there recognized advantageous
to the Public; but he must repeat that he was wholly
at a loss to know how the Right Hon. Gentleman
could make out his statement that the Public were
deriving advantage from the use of £2,600,000
drawn from a fund which was so deeply in debt.
With respect to the balances in the hands of the
Bank, he had within the last three or four years re-
peatedly called the attention of the House to them.
The system had been altered, but he was one of, those
who thought that, at a time like the present, some

amount of the balances in their hands. This advice
was followed on the present occasion ; but if the old
course had been adopted, and the Loan had been for
£i7,000,000, the result would have been very differ-
ent. Another cause which tended to procure terms
so favourable was the smallness of the Loan. It was
'within the power of a great number of persons to bid
for a Lan of L 5,000,000, and therefore the compe-
tition fur the present Loan was much more extensive
than usual, and far greater than if it had been for
.4:17,000,000. In consequence of those circumstances,
the Right Hon. Gentleman had certainly obtained
such terms as must be highly satisfactory to the
country. lie conceived that no fairer mode could
be devied in forming contracts for the Public than
by open competition. That system, he hoped, would
he generally acted on. An Honourable Gentleman
had, on aformer night, asked some questions relative
to a large amount of Exchequer Bills, which had
semen issued by Government at liar, when they were
at:a discount ia the market. From the explanation
.)1 the 'tight lion. Gentleman, it seemed that they
'vere given in consequence of a contract for a quan-
tit) of silver. Now, it was quite evident that the 7s.
cr Bs. received by Government from the persons with
:.hone the contract was made would be reimbursed
a I tolit in the price of the silver : they would un-
e.oubtecily raise the price to the amount which they
'Tie likely to lose.. Ile thought, in this instance
:hat the system of competition should have been
on, and that they should have been purchased
I:l.tt way. Ile wished for some explanation with
to the quantity of Exchequer Bills relative to
y. 1.4.1: information had been demanded a few even-
ings 4,;(i. A statement had then been made, which
his llonotnahle Friend (Mr. Grenfell), and other Gen-
t.t:niLii, declared they did not understand. It ap-
p•-aied to him to be a very mysterious transaction;

' , .
farther benefit might be derived from them by the: better to lay hold of it all; ant thus get tid of the
Public, with perfect fairness to the Bank of England. i delusion At present, they were nay b-eiripsvint
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,l£l2,ooo,ooo from the Com fri issiiiners, having previ-
the £2,600,000 taken out of the Ccinsolidated Fund ously furnished them with the means of lending it.
were replaced by Exchequer Bills witbout interest. Mr. HUME understood the Right Hon. Gentle-
Mr.
J. MARTIN said, that At several different man to have 'said, that he hoped this would be the
Quarters there were seven or eight millions due on last loan the codntry would require for a long time:
the Consolidated Fund ; and yet the Right Hon. But how could that be? Were these 1:12,00000 to
Gentleman stated that he borrowed from it. By the be made up next year? If they were not, and alit
Act of Parliament he could not borrow unless there delusive system were continued; the Right 'Hon:
was a surplus, and therefore he conceived that the Gentleman might go on borrowing every succeeding
statute was violated. ' year. Such a system could only em'uai rest and in-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de. cumber the country.
nied that any violation of the Act of Parliament had The CHANCEIsLOIrof the EXCHEQUER ob.:
taken place. served, in reply, that be feared there would be much
Mr. HUME said, that the authority to borrow confusion in the supposed simplification of proceed;
£6,000,000 from the Consolidated Fund would be ittgs which had been suggested by'Hon. Gentlemen.
very well as long as there was :any surplus of that Mr. Alderman HEYGATE said it was most irn;
fund ; but on the 12th of April it appeared that it portant for every man in the country, in whatever
was 1:6,800,000 in debt ; consequently, out of that trade or profession, to know how the circulating me-
fund none of the sums stated could possibly be taken. dium was to be kept up. It was a most sacred duty
Mr. GRENFELL said it would be a most desirable of Government to secuie the maintenance of a circus
thing if some means were devised to get rid of this lation adequate to the taxation of the country. Now
deficiency of the Consolidated Fend. One objection the money taken out of circulation would only be
to its continuance was, that it rendered the accounts returned to it on the part of the Bank by purchases
SO extremely complex, that he doubted very much of gold, of Exchequer Bill., or by discounts. The
whether the Right Hon. Gentleman himself under- last mode was inadequate, but he could not 'conceive
stood them. He did not say this with any intention what rational objection could exist to the Bank pur-
to offend the Right Hon. Gentleman; but he did chasing and selling Exchequer Bills, as they formerly'
moss positively know that many persons in official did, by which means the circulation would be kept
situations in the Exchequer declared that they cc,uld up when deficient, and reduced n hen superfluous:
not master them. When such men as bis Honour- The Honourable Gentleman was persuaded the great
able Friends, who had spoken in the course of this cause of the present digress of our agriculture and
discussion, and who were in the habit of inspecting trade arose from the continual reduction of the cit..
figures and accounts—when they stated that these culation which had of late been going on, and which
accounts were unintelligible to them, something tended, by raising unnaturally the value of money,
ought to be done to simplify them—(Hear, hear!). to augment the pressure of Taxes, Pensions, and fixed
The deficiency of the Consolidated Fund was a blot Payments. He was glad to hear there were to be
on the statement of their annual finance. It was no more loans during peace. The system of borrow-
clear that there was a deficit of from six to eight ing was a great source of the calamities of the country,
millions :he knew that that deficiency was provided Mr. RICARDO said, that one question had been
for quarterly by the Bank ; but it should be recol- put- by his lion. Friend who had just sat down, in the
lected that they paid the Bank interest for it. If they necessity of which he did not eatirely concur. He
even paid a little more interest than they did to the (Mr. Ricardo) thought it quite unnecessary for the
Bank, in order to procure money to cover it con- Bank of England to reduce its circulating medium
pletely, it would be advantageous to the Public, any further than it was at present reduced% The Hon:
since it would simplify the system. But if they did Gentleman had said, that the price of gold was now
not raise the money by loan, and chose rather to issue at the Mint price; perhaps he might have said that
Exchequer Bills, still they would not be paying a it was a little under it, for he knew that many per=
greater interest than they now paid to the Bank. He, sons took gold to the Miiit at the Mint price, in order
was not sanguine enotkgh to contemplate the period, to be coined ; and this they could not do if gold was
within any moderate lapse of time, when the increase not, in fact, a little under that price, because some
of the resources of this country would enable them space of time must elapse before they could receive
to get rid of this deficiency. If the Right Hon. Gen- the benefit of the coinage. Bat his lion. Friend ap.
tleman could state that in two or three years such peared to labour under a mistake, in supposing that
an improvement was likely to take place as would be a reduction of the circulating medium would be a
adequate to the expendit&e, and also get rid of the consequence of this Loan, or repaying the Bank.—
deficiency of seven or eight millions, -he would not The reduction of Bank-notes within the last year did
be averse to giving him the full time. He would not exceed £2,000,000; that reduction of £2,000,000
ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it was not was all that was necessary to bring about that state
most desirable to get rid of this odious, unseemly, of the currencywhich all had united with the Finance
unsightly blot ? Committee in desiring to see obtained. Indeed,
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if the Bank was desirous to follow their own in-
there was one point which might account for the terest, it was a clear and obvious one: if they were.
Honourable Gentleman's observations, which was, to effect a very great reduction in their paper, which
that he did not really understand the mode in which he should most sincerely lament, the consequence
the sum of £2,600,000 was borrowed from the Con- would be such a rise in paper, and such a fall in
solidated Fund. A great many Gentlemen of know- gold, that individuals would carry their gold to the
ledge and sagacity were often puzzled by a simple Mint, and endeavour to fill up the circulation with it.-
statement; their own knowledge and sagacity, which As to the alarm felt by his Hon. Friend, it was quite
led them to unnecessary.refinements, opertted to de. groundless, for there could be no fear but that the
feat the object they had 'in view. He agreed with Bank would keep up a sufficient quantity of notes,
the Honourable Gentleman that it was desirable there as their own advantage depended upon the issue.--
should not be a deficiency on the Consolidated Fund; As to the Sinking Fund, the argutnent of himself
and he trusted, at no distant time, that such an ax- and his Hon. Friend had been, "Take away all which
rangement would be made, with the assistance of tends to delude the country—take away so much of
, that Sinking Fund as. is not in reality an excess of Parliament, as would effectually meet the evil. This
however, could not be done in the present year. The income over expenditure." Therefore he entirely
Honourable Gentleman stated the deficiency to be concurred in the opinions of his Hon. Friend, that
£7,000,000 or £8,000,000: in this, however, he in- they should immediately get rid of so much of the
eluded the £2,600,000 that were borrowed, so that fund as, being nominal, was merely a delusion. He
in fact the actual deficiency was only £5,000,000. would detain them no longer at present, as hedrould
He entertained hopes that it would be made good in be shortly enabled to express his opinion more fully
the course of the next year; If in the next Session upon these subjects.
he found that those hopes were not likely to be rea- Mr. HUME observed, that if the worthy Alderman
lized, he would submit a proposition to Parliament would refer to former cases, he would find, if he
-relative to a part of it. looked at the amount of paper then in circulation,
Mr. RICARDO observed, that on the sth of Jely, that, upon occasions when the heaviest loans had
1819, there was a deficiency of £8,400,000. " But," been borrowed, to the amount of £20,000,000 and
said the Right Honourable Gentleman, " you have, upwards, the contracting of such a loan had. not
without interest, 1:2,600,000, for which Exchequer withdrawn more than £1,000,000 from circulation ;
Bills have been deposited." This he denied and he the present loan could therefore have but very little
would contend that the Public bad not the advantage effect on it.
of that sum. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE explained.—lt was ex-
' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, tremely difficult to say what effect this would have
if that sum had not been advanced from the Conso- upon the market.
lidated Fund, the difference would be, that the Bank The House resunied, and the Report was ordered
would have £2,600,000 of the public money in their to be received on Monday next, in a Committee of
hands, during the Quarter, which would be employed the whole House.
by them for their own benefit, and not, as now, for Mr. HUME begged leave to ask one question con-
the benefit of the Public. netted with the business of the Committee of Ways
The Resolution was then agreed to, as were also and Means. The East India Company appeared to
the two preceding Resolutions, granting to the Con- have a claim upon the Government of 13,314,542.
tractor, for every £lOO money, £lOO three per Cent. Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer intend to pro-
Reduced, and £42.45. Console. vide for this in the Ways and Means of the year ?
On the Resolution being put, relative to the dis- 'the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in
count to be allowed on an anticipation of the period reply, said, that be did not intend to bring forwaid
of payment. any measure upon this subject, during the Session.
Mr. GRENFELL rose, and, Averting to the SUSSEX ELECTION.
£12,000,000 which it was proposed to take from the Mr. CCRTEIS postponed the second reading of the Sussex
Sinking Fund, demanded whether it would not be
ICendtaytion
of
Bill to Wednesday se night, at the recom-
better to do away that part of the machinery of the n
Mr. HUSKISSON, who stated, that it was but reasonable,
system altogether ? The fact was, they borrowed that those, whose rights were to bit so materially affected by the
1:12,000,000 from the Com Missioners of the National Bill, should be allowed a little time before the Bill passed through
Debt ; but they must, in the first instance, advance so important a stage.
those £12,000,000, to enable them to lend it—(llear,
hear).—Now' of what consequence was it to the Pub-
lic whether they granted that sum to the Commis-
sioners, to be lent back to them, or retained it them-
selves, in the first instance ? The system was com-
pletely absurd, and differed from everything that was
contemplated in 1783, when the Fund was established.
At present it was entirely nominal and delusive, and
had no other effect but to render the finance state-
ments perplexed and unintelligible. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated, that therewas a Sinking Fund
of £17,000,000 ; and then, said he, " See what a fine-
flourishing state we are in !"—(Laughter).—But the
fact was, they had left no Sinking Fund at all. They
took £12,000,000 from the Fund, and £5,000,000
from the. Public, the interest of which must come out
of the Sinking Fund ; for, he understood, there would
be no new taxes. For his own part, he did not think
the Loan contracted for this day was necessary. if
would they really had a Sinking Fund, instead
C 12,000,000 from the Commissioners, it of taldkin b:

MISCELLANEOUS.

Mr. BARHAM moved for a Return of the number of At-
tornies now practising in/the Courts of Great Session/ in Wales,
together with their narnes'and places of residence.--Ordeeed.
On the motion of the Carawmi.os of the Exerts: toga the
other Orders of the Day were then read.
Upon the reading of some of the Irish Billy Sir Jome Naw-
PORT, Sir HF-IMIT PAIIIIMLL, Mr. WILLIAM PAILNELL, Sir Gsoaan
Hitt, and the CiIANGiLLOS of the Exemactumi, engaged in a con-
versation relative to the propriety of repealing or remodelling
many of the Irish llutiet ant Imposts upon the Exportation of
-fine and coarse Cloths,- Books, Pictures, Statues, Salt, Hops,
Coals, &c. acc. which were laid on at the period of the Union;
Sir JIM* NEWPOIIII intimating his wish that the Cnamesta.os of
the EXCIIEQUMR, at a future day, would originate some Motion -
upon the subject,
The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared his
belief that they had not been imposed but with the greatest cue
and deliberation, and observed upon the difficulty of legislating,
so as to meet the many jarring interests concerned.
lle House went
isu
entint:Rea Committeeonwm
ody
thena . Conti of Ring's
Bench N
A new Writ was ordered for Oakhamptort, in the ream of
Mr. ALIAWY SAYILM, who had accepted. the Chiltern Hundredsll
The other Ordt rs of the• Day were then disposed pc aid the
House adjowned till Monday.

i •