Star.
London, England, 1819-05-25 00:00:00

qtalatios to) wili;
ckhe &ad See tit') solid oh•
tt He understood some persons had had it in
troplation to propose a plan by which the Bank
id t.i• called upon to pay gull in bars at the
A price. Ile v. r.c.:d rather see a.:l principle
tied than st sveil a principle as that to which
.1 Abided su',:t uted for that which had hitherto
sand upom Ile sheaved this would virtually
prevent the return, or at least the continuance
,
tsh Payment,. Ile would no* conclude. The
ins he had this night expressed were opposite to
r,n which he 1.. a.! formerly acteds when in truth
,{ not hazi time to give the subject that consi-
nu which it so well deserved, and if this states
would serve to satisfy the•Hnuce of his since_
!lc bad an arduous duty .to perform. He was
obliged painfully to oppose an authority
ich on every occasion but this, where a sense
,y forbade him to give way, he wa. ready to
with respect and veneration. But having en-
in the late inquiry, he had been forced to that
,sion which he had come to, on the principle
, might to govern the currency of this country,
is an honest man he was bound to say, and he
wit:tont feeling the slightest shame, his opinion
:hanged. Ile then moved his Resolutions.
le three following Resolutions were then put
the Chair and agreed tot
'That it is expedient to continue the Restriction on Pay-
ia Cash by the Bank of England, beyond the tune in
i; is at present limited by law.
!hit it is ear.:ilient that a definite period should be fixed
termination of the Restriction on Cash Payments; and
,iritory measures should be taken, with a view to fad-
11d We're, on the arrival of that period, the payment of
iiniss,,r-puotes of the Bank of England in the legal Coin
Ile:41;m

That in order to give to the Bank a greater controut over
,ur: of their Notes than they at present possess, provision
tube made-for the gradual repayment to the Bank of the
niiilims; being part of the sum due to the Bank, on
of advances made by them for the public service, and on
q of the purchase of Exchequer-bills under the authority
s of the Legislature
fourth Resolution being put in the following

;
, Tba: it is expedient to provide, by law, that from the lit
Febriury, 1810, the Bank shall be liable to deliver, on de-
Gal ! of standard fineness, having been assayed and stamp-
, 314:sty's Mint, a quantity of not less than 60 ounces
reqci:ed in exchange for such an amount of Notes of the
be equal to the value of the Gold so required, at
ac off:4ls. per ounce,"---
r. ELLICE rose. He concurred with all the
;pies laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman in
:ry eloquent speech, but differed from the Com-
ie as to the remedy which ought to be resorted
order to carry those principles into effect. He
d not to weaken the effect of that speech in fa-
d principles which he so highly approved.
were opptisted but by few, and those who op-
them only did so on tile ground of present in.
liency, but without indicating the period when
,old be less inexpedient to act upon them. He
a view of the situation of the country • from
, when the exchanges were in our favotw, up to
resent time, and traced the difficulties under
we had now to labour, to the plan of finance
Inght forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
msequence of the favourable. state of the er-
rs. The trade of the country in 1815 and
' he compared with that of the two following
and argued that in the latter period, though
exports were ~reat, in consequence of the specu-
is which had been encouraged, the returns were
unfavourable to this country. The evils of our
:ncy were only now beginning to make theat-
res felt; but we should find them increase with
• hour till the restoration of the ancient stan-
of value should be accomplished-i4Hear.)--
: differed from the Right Honourable Gentle.
as to the particular measure recommended by
, and founded on the Report of the Cotomittee,
;egged again to say that he perfectly agreed with
in the principles which they had avowed, and
irst three Resolutions had his most cordial ap-
iation. If in no other way he could accomplish
object in view, he would go with the Right Ho-
trable Gentleman, but he thought he saw a better
r of remedying the evil. He wished to move that
sum to be repaid to the Bank should be repaid at
Jed periods, beginning in June in the present year.
Other amendments he would afterwards propose to
restrain the Bank from making advances but in cer-
cases to Government, anti to allow them to pay
r Notes in coin or bullion, at their option. He
dd also move for- the repeal of the Law respect-
the Exportation of Coin. HO concluded by
ring an amendment which went to provide " for
:repayment of the Bank, by monthly instalments,
I £500,000, to be regularly paid, beginning on the
10th of June, 1819."
Mr. J. P. GRANT had expected the Mint regula-
tions would force the gold out of circulation, and he
:confirmed in the opinion which he had formerly
'Pressed. In such a state of things there was no
'refit in exporting silver. But when the silver cur-
:y was so reduced as by the present Mint regula- '
111 s, it operated as a premium on the export of
id—and the profit which was derived from deli-
111 gold in bars, proved that the Bank note was
yrciated with reference to the price of gold,
sigh not to that of silver. The evidence of various
.6esses proved this.—Mr. Baring expressly stated,
that he did not think the rate of gold or of exchange
affected by '.le price of silver ; although he men-
tioned it as a singular fact, that the rates of exchange
the price ofbullionhad adapted the niselves pretty
arty to the scale of the depreciation of silver.
WELLFALEY POLE. said, ir the Report of
e Committee which his Honourable Friend had so
dereloped—ia every one of the sentiments which
as Chairman of that Committee, had this night
,a such ability advanced and maintained, he (Mr.
,i(‘) fully acquiesced. There was not one word in
Report, or in the speech of his Right Honour-'
1e friend, that did not appear to him to De a fair
suction from the evidence which had been deliver-
1, difficult as it undoubtedly was to sift and to corn-
Art it in all its parts. In no put of the admirable
'Poch of his Right Honourable Friend did he more
krfectdv agree with him, than in that part of it in
'Mich lie spoke of the temper which had been mani"
't,ed 6)' all the Members of the Committee, during
and laborious investigations. He felt him-
if4l),ind, in justice to such Gentlemen on the op-
si le of the House as were Members of the
''L2e. to declare, that nothing cutild be more
and manly, than the whole of their con-
acre Was not a Oentlinian upon the Coin-

ittittee who did i'n4 lippeAr cietermineci to forego all
party feelings and considerations, and to make up
histtponthe mindupon great question before him, fairly
evidencethe
which was adduced. He felt,
however, that he should not act candidly if he did
not declare that he should have been most willing to
have had the Report drawn up in conformity with the
principles which had been laid down by the Honour.
able Gentleman opposite, who had moved the Amend-
ment, if it had not been for the paper which had been
laid before them by the Bank of England, and which
bad been already referred to ; but he thought that he
could not, consistently with his public duty, after thel
production of that paper, consent to leave the resump-
tion of Cash Payments to the distretion of the Bank.
lie felt the greatest respect for the Directors of the
Bank of England ; he believed that they were actu-
ated by the best motives, but he would leave it to
any man in the House to .ay whether, after the pro-
duction of the paper to which he had alluded, the
Committee could, with consistency or propriety, have
left it to the Bank to determine when and under, what
circumstances the payments in cash should be re-
sumed ? He would not trespass any longer up on the
time of the Committee by adverting to the general
question ; indeed, he should not have risen at all, if it
had not been for what had fallen from the Honour-
, able and Learned Gentleman who spoke last. Ile
perfectly agreed with the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, that the particular considerations which
he had pressed upon the attention'of the,Committee
were of very great importance ; and entertaining the
opinions which the Learned Gentleman did upon the
subject, it was undoubtedly his duty to bring it dis-
tinctly under the consideration of the Committee.—
The opinions, however, of the Learned Gentleman
upon this point, were by no means new ; they had
appeared before the Public in a great variety of
shapes. They had been urged with uncommon assi-
duity and perseverance by one person, highly gifted
with talents, and possessing great information, and
especially upon this particular point. They had been
pressed upon the attention of the Public under the
signature of the " Old Merchant, Mr. Hardcastle,“
and others, and the Learned Gentleman had to-night
'spoken the language of the Old Merchant and Mr.
Hardcastle with great accuracy. The best answer,
perhaps, which he could give to the Hon. and Learn-
ed Gentleman, would be to state distinctly the prin
ciples upon which the Mint Regulations were founded.
They were not adopted without that degree of consi-
deration which the importance of the subject de-
manded ; and if they were erroneous, those who had
advised the Prince Regent upon the subject had
much to answer for. From the time of the great
Silver Coinage in the reign of King William, the
greatest inconvenience had been felt from the cir-
cumstance of both the precious metals having been
made standards of value. The Legislature could fix
the value of the coin, but it could not kx the value of
the gold or silver bullion from which the coin was
made ; therefore as the prices of the bullion fluc-
tuated, an effect was immediately produced upon the
coin, and it was found quite impracticable to keep
the two precious metals in circulation tpgether, both
being standards of value, and as it were competitors
with one another. In the year 1773 the silver coin,
war so depreciated, that though it remained nomi-
nally a standard of value, yet all our exchanges with
foreign countries were regulated by the Ford coin.:
and in 1774, when the great reformation in the gold
coin took place, it was determined that there should
be but one standard of value, viz. gold. It was found*
impossible at that time to regulate the silver coinage
but it was made a legal tender to the amount of
twenty-five pounds by tale, and above that amount
by weight. In consequence of the new gold coinage
and of these regulations, all the exchanges immedi;
ately turned in our favour. The silver coin was at
that time, as he had already stated, greatly depre-
ciated, to the extent of he believed 30 per cent,—
'
Now if there were foundation for the theory of the
Learned Gentleman, that when one coin is depre-
ciated, it will drive the other out of circulation,
that effect must then have been produced—(Hear.)
If, as the Learned Gentleman contended, the silver
coin which was now under the Mint regulations, de-
preciated only six per cent. would force the gold out
of circulation, surely it must have immediately pro-
duced that effect when it was depreciated thirty per
cent. But the fact was directly at variance with the
Learned Gentleman's theory, for the gold was not
driven out of circulation. In the year 1816 there were
three millions of this depreciated silver coin in circu-
lation, and it was a legal tender to the amount of
Ll/425; there was also nearly the same amount of Bank
tokens of depreciated value in circulation, and yet
they had no effect upon the gold coin. But it was
contended that the silver was then only taken by suf-
ferance, but that now the silver coin was by the Mint
regulations legally reduced in value. The fact was
so; .but the Learned Gentleman seemed to forget
that it was now only made a legal tender to the
value of forty shillings, and that as Government kept
the coinage in their own hands, they could prevent
too large a quantity of it from being thrown into
circulation. The Learned Gentleman had entered
into a calculation to shew that great profits might
be made by a person taking sovereigns, over to France
and purchasing silver, and bringing silver back, and
again purchasing sovereigns and exporting them.—
It was true that when the price of Bullion varied in
different countries, a profit might be made, by buy-
ing it where it was cheap, and selling it where it was
dear; but that did not prove the correctness of the
Learned Gentleman's argument, because when a per-
son brought silver from France, in the way stated,
he could not have it coined in this country, and even
if he could, he would have to pay the seiknorage,
and consequently lose his profit, or at least the profit
would be too small to tempt any one to enter into
the speculation. It was to be observed also that if
the Learned Gentleman's theory was well founded,
the relative prices of Gold and Silver would be diffe-
rent from what they actually were ; the price of Gold
was now £3 and 6d. the ounce, and Silver ss. 4d. But
if the Learned Gentleman was correct in his reason-
ing, the price of Gold ought to be I:4 Ss. Od. so that
here was another practical proof of the fallacy of this
theory. The Honourable Gentleman said, that the
present system was quite new, and would answer no
• purpose. In reply to this, he had only to state,
at ithad been established after much deliberation,
and that. is fact,
it was the same which had been
Aso
the late late Lord Liverpool. It had
conmeodektby
the sanction of mother high outhatity, and- a more

cticicku one, considering the geneial principles on
which it proceeded, namely, the authority of Doctor
Achim Smith. In common with most other writers
on political economy, Dr. Adam Smith was of opi-
nion that it was a great evil to have two Metallic
Standards. The tiononrable CAntleman, however,
wished that we had continued to act on the old system.
But what was the old system ? It was this, that the
subject had the power of coming to the Mint with
silver to any amount, and that the currency of the
same metal wits a legal tender to an unlimited ex-
tent. To permit this, while at the same time gold
was a standard, was contrary to, the opinion of all
the most skilful political economists. Dr. Smith
said that he thought it would be highly desirable to
have the silver com regulated on the same principle
as the copper (which was limited as a legal tender to
the amount of one guinea) and that for this purpose
as much should be taken from the silver at the

... ...-
Mint as would reduce it to the same degree below
the vAlue of bullion that it was now above it. This
appeared to hitt the correct view of the subject. In-
deed it was that on which the late regulations had
been framed : and he had found upon examining the
proportion that was taken from silver, that it came
to within a farthing of that which Dr. Smith recom-
mended. It had also been the opinion of Lord Li-
verpool, that a seignorage should be taken upon sil-
ver ; and he had advised that the coinage should be
put into the hands of some great Corporation, such
as the Bank. So that the recommendation of Lord
'Liverpool corresponded with what had been done.—
The Honourable Gentleman would hardly dispute,
that previbus to the late distresses, and down to the
time when the regulations in question had been
adopted, the state of tire silver coinage was such as
was very inconvenient to the nation. Ile need not
recal to. the House the state of the country at the
time when the regulations were msde. They had
now been in operation for three years, and he might
venture to say, that there was this proof of their effi-
cacy, that not a murmur was now anywhere to be
heard, relative to the coinage—(Hear, hear.) Yet
when the regulations for the coinage had been at first
proposed, there was an outcry against them in the
very same quarter from whence the objections which
he was now considering, had proceeded. The Noble
"Old Merchant," and the Noble Lord in the other
House had then asked how so wicked a thing could
be attempted as to change the silver currency of the
country? and insisted that it would cause the greatest
distress among the lower orders of trade—that the
shopkeeper, the middle-man, the small wader, would
be ruined. In answer to this, however, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer had argued very ably on the
benefits, which it would produce, and stated that the
expenses would not exceed 500,0001.—(hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord, however, met this by a still more
positive denunciation of the evil consequences of any
attempt towards a new silver coinage, and main-
tained that the expense would be much greater than
the sum mentioned by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer.—" Only half a million," said the Noble
Lord. ". Good Goo! you are completely mistaken.
I know how you calculate: you take nothing into
account but the mere expense of labour—you forget
the loss which will be occasioned by the deprecia-
fron. I say, it will cost, not half a million, but-nine
millions and a half; and that enormous sum must be
taken from the pockets of that clam wham I hwie

mentioned, the diopkeeper and the small trader, and
an' incalculable mischief will be occasioned to the
country." But the gold coin and the rate of ex-
change never entered into the Noble Lord's contem-
plation.—" Look what you are clOing," said he—
" Yciu will lose all your new coin in six months."
'The result, however, shewed how completely the
Noble Lord was mistaken; and *he could only now
hope that the " Noble Old Merchant" would be as
bad a prophet now as the Noble Lord was formerly.
In truth, if the effect of the regulations for the last
' coinage were compared with those of any former pe-
riod, it would be foutid that none had ever been so
completely successful. The new coinage in the reign
of William 111. had been attended with many diffi-
culties, and had occasioned a at deal of distress
throughout the kingdom. N ing of this kind had
occurred in 1817. Throughout the whole-kingdom
there was hardly an individual who lost a shilling or
a sixpence—(Hear.)—This much he would say of the
regulations which the Noble Lord and the Honour-
able Gentleman so much condemned, that if a new
,coinage were to be issued to.mori ow, he would adopt
them without any alteration. There was now no
want of change, and he hoped soon to see the time
,when there would be no want of bullion. As to cop-
per, at the time he wrote the letter which had been
mentioned, the copper coinage was circulating at a
seignorage of 72b. This would seem very high,
but it was principally occasioned by the expenses
of the workmanship of the copper coinage, which
cost nearly forty per cent. But it was not found to
be any inconvenience to the public—(Hear, hear.)—
He was ashamed to have detained the House so long,
but thought it his duty to lay before them those
statements relative to a subject which had been so
erroneously treated by the Noble Lord in the other
House and the Hon. Gentleman. If the Hon. Gen-
tleman had been right, his. objection was most se-
rious; but he trusted he said enough to shew that
no weight whatever was due to those objection. In
fact, they were all sufficiently answered by the evir
"(fence of Mr. Mushett, and the Committee were so
entirely satisfied with the information which that
Gentleman communicated, that they had not thought
it necessary to call any other witness on that part of
the subject.
Mr. TIERNEY and Mr. MANNING rose at the same
time. There was a pretty loud call for The latter
Gentleman, but he gave way.
Mr. TIERNEY assured the House that he would
not trespass long upon their time. All that he wished
was, that he might be allowed to say, in a very few
words, what had occurred to him relative to the plan
through which, by various intermediate steps, it was
proposed to arrive at the great object. He could
hardly say that he was quite a disinterested party onl
thii question, if it was recollected that be now heard
from the other side of the House those verrprinciples
advocated for which he and his friends near him had
so long contended. Nor could it be thought that it
was possible for him to remain indifferent when he
heard the tribute of respect paid to the memory of
one who had always been most dear to h'rn. It was
a great gratification to him that he had lived at least
I to see the day when those doctrines were adopted

• . ~ .
' wilic hi e-1561) first delrereci with all the poiVeiTti
eloquence. of the late Mr. Horner, had beet: describ •
by the Gentlemen on the other side of the Hotise as
happenedßm oenrjiivisionaryy‘w i‘thi
What
h respectd t bt speculations.lti
me
o.aTtpehidne,iownssaimieon7
sptihrroeirsi gezhunadegl
from that most distinguished man, as wild theories,
.were new adopted by. those very persons who had so
long.enti tlwAiikcehdhethhealdtithghist
nHigonht.
eorranwfdorthtehme.H
justicee
.G
rendered to the memo,- of one of those eminent men,
and he was sure that hereafter equal justice would
thedtaoi
nbHi wotafhse nreo
great ees e
e i cmma
pel l
Loei
importance;
,a)unbpceoe n;a
but
pour
tedtest loyi bfea
rr aut e
be done to the merits of the other. The subject on
syoe ruovsne ,ee
whw-eha siccochui
e
gene-
ral disposition on both sides of the House to concur
in the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel).
He was sorry, however, that he could not entirely
agree to that plan, proposed as it was to the House
under the sanction of the Committee. No man could
be more anxious than himself for the speedy resump-
tion of Cash Payments—no man could be supposed
to have less favour for the Bank Directors. But jus-
tice must be done to all; and he felt it his duty to
state why he should vote for the Amendment moved
by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ellice) rather than
for the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman.
All were agreed as to the importance of an early re.
turn to a metallic currency. Some indeed there were
who seemed to think that a continuance of the restric-
tion would not be attended with any material incon-
venience to the country. With such persons he ab-
jured all intercbmmunion of sentiment. He must
protes# against the monstrous doctrines on which their
opinions were founded—(./ear, hear).—But he per-
fectly agreed with the Right I lonourable Gentlemaa,
that there was no security to the Wash Empire but
in a. return to a metallic currency. Ile agreed that
there could be no tocsins by which property could
be valued till we turned to a wholesome circulation,
and he agreed that the plan which was best adapted
to effect a speedy return to this most desirable state,
was that which the House ought to adopt. The
plan which the Right Honourable Gentleman pro-
pmed was easily explaieed—( Hear, hear, hear).—
It was, that in February next the Bank shall pay all
demands in sums not less than 60 ounces, in bulliqu
at the price of CI. Is. per ounce—that from the Ist -
November, 1820, this price should be reduced to
£3. 19s. 6d.—from Ist May, 1821, demands to half
the amount first mentioned in bullion at the rate of
£3. 17s. 100. and finally, that the notice of one year
for a complete resumption of Cash Payments, to be
given by the Parliament to the Bank, should not be
given before the Ist of May, 1822. The effect of
this plan was to drive off the period of Cash Pay-
ments for four years from this time, which would
make it the ninth year of peace before-the people of
England would be put in possession of a metallic cur-
rency. With all the use which had been made of
the authority of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ricardo),
to sanction this plan, he must observe, that it did not
entirely coincide with it. This was not Mr. Ricardo's
plan. It was a postponement of it for two years from
this time, and then it gave it two years more for its
operation. On these two first years—on this inter-
mediate step it was that he felt great doubts. He
teould•ctsily agree to Mr. Ricardo s plan for allowing
Bank time to collect bullion. But hereefived
wishabhorrence-the other part of the plan which had
the tendency of introducing a new standard unknown
to the currency of the country. It was an mina-
torsi and absurd way of getting rid of the difficu -
' ties which now beset us. Its tendency was net to
make our paper come to gold, but to make our go'd
come to paper—if the mountain would not con eto
Mahomet, Mahomet must go to the mountain.—
Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman mentioned some
authorities as to the danger of introducing a new
standard. But this was what alarmed him—that if
the principle of our standard was once broken down,
it would never be resumed. The Right Honourable
Gentleman used this phrase in speaking of his plan,
that the Committee were ~ Taking security against
poisible danger." This was a good expression. A
security against possible danger was just the very
thing which be wanted. The Right Honourable
Gentleman, however, agreed that the standard shonld
only be altered for a limited time. But the great
security to which he would look was, that when Cash
Payments were resumed, it would cut off the retreat
of those who might be disposed to draw back. The
Honourable Member thought that the plan now pro- •
posed was dangerous, because it tended to withdraw
the confidence of the Public from the Bank. What
is a pound sterling now worth? The Bank is no
longer to be trusted, and therefore the currency of
the country is greatly depreciated, and the pound
sterling of a very doubtful value. But the opinions
entertained 0 the Bank by the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer were the opinions of Mr. Horner, as ex-
pressed in his propositions submitted to the House in
the year 1810. The Bank Directors were treated
very cavalierly by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The former say, we know nothing of political eco-
nomy ; but if a sun is made against as, we must take .
care of our Paper—(Hear, hear, hear). It is some-
what extraordinary that you should demand security
from the Bank, and not from Government, who were
the chief culprits, because the Bank were under the
controul of the Right Ilonourable Gentleman (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) and his worthy col-
leagues—( Hear,hear). Without security from Govern-
ment, as well as the Bank, you were in a manner
putting
the shepherd in the stocks, and letting. loose
the wolves.--(Hear, hear.) Nothing was so mischie-
vous as to say to the Bank Directors—. We cadnot
trust you, and thei efore the public must repose no
confidence in you r Let -such language jv used
against any private banking-house, and ruin tnust
inevitably follow. By holding out to all the world
that the Bank is not to be trnitel, public credit 'a
deeply injured. But he (Mr. Tierney). had an interest
in the Bank, and' therefore thought
.it iacumbrat
upon him to support the Bank against the attacks cf
Ministers. Should the Bank complain of the non- _
payments of the advances co Government, the latter
would turn round shortly on the Bank, and say, the
public must no longer trust osti—(Hear, hear.)—_
They thew the .WhOle. responsib4ity upon the Bank,
when they . were -the 'vilely paltsons who prevented
'the Directors frOut resnixfittg Cash-payMents--(4ear.)
Let Government adopt settle plan forAti speedy dis-
charge of its debts due to the Bank ;Aid should "%e
Directors refuse to returnto Cash Pa, meats after Ele

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