Star.
London, England, 1819-01-28 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS..

ifOUSE JANIIARY 27.
The !louse at in.its Judicial capacity the first time this Sea.
sion, and a meeting accordingly took place at the usual hour in
tke forenoon. Counsel were heard ow the Scots cause " Geddes
a. Stuarts."--To.pruceed on Friday.
Viscount A it num mus, one of the sixteeu Scots Peers, took the
oaths and his seat.
Viscount S f tUT 14 presented a copy of the Report made
to the Prince It .gent by the Surveyor-General of the Board of
Works, relative to the employment of sutistitute or other means
for the cleaning of chimuies, instead of the usual mode of climb-
ing boys—which was ordered to be printed.

INCIIPAsE OF CHIME—LONDON PETITION.
Lord HOLLAND presented a Petition from the'
Lord Mayor, Aldermen, &c. of the City of London,
relative to the alarming increase of crimes, and the
inadequacy, or injurious tendency of the present see.
rem of punishment (similar to that presented to the
other House of Parliament.) The subject was one,
his Lordship observed, which imperiously called for
the best and speedy attention of the Legislature.
The present Petitioners were far from being a set of
ighorant or visionary men, but men who, from their
station in life, and opportunities of intelligence and
ieformation, many of them being at the head of the
Magistracy of the Metropolis, were well calculated
to form correct opinions on the subject of the Peti-
tiong .the Petition stated, and he regretted to say,
with ties much foundation, the great increase of
crime wlich prevailed of late years; and further,
that such increase was in proportion to the increased
severity of allotted punishment, more especially, as
far as the capital punishment for death was pre-
scribed. He could not help remarking on this occa-
sion, with respect to a circumstance which was within
his own knowledge, and the fact he deemed t strik-
ing one, namely, that in a neighbouring country,
France, where before the Revolution the: punishment
of death was attached to a multitude of minor offen-
ces, petty thefts particularly, the commi ision of these
offences was inconceivably common. In, fact, at that
period the property of no man in that .country was
safe; so great was the prevalence of offences com-
mitted by individuals in various shapes. But after
that great event, when those part, oil the law were
altered, either by the National or II ie Legislative
Assembly, the taking off' those capital punishments,,
and .clotting others more consonant to the nature of
the offences, more especially, when those ameliora-
tions were established by the Code Nap okon, the di-
minution of those offences was inconceivable, and
though the certainty of adequate punish meet follow-
ing the commission of the offence, thu se were in a
great measure done away. In this cou tory, he was
decidedly of opinion, the like result %%mild attend
similar regulations. Nothing more loudly called for
the decisive interposition of the Legislature, than
those pans of our Criminal Code comply fined of in
the Petition ; their Lordships could scare e possibly
be aware of the alarming extent to which the com-
mission of crime had spread under the ex isting sys-'
tem. It was not at present his intention t o submit
any proposition to the House on the sub ject. He
trusted the investigation, and the suggestion of reine-
dies, would fall into abler hands. At present, he
should merely move that the Petition be I aid upon
the table. Ile trusted the subject would be speedily ,
and seriously taken up by Parliament. TI to united,
opinions of some of the greatest individuals ;hat ever'
adorned this country were decidedly in las 'our of al
general and efficient review of the Criminal Code,
for the purpose of rendering it more just, c UMMllll-
surate, and efficacious, most puticularly as ii refer-
red to the punishments at present allotted o k minor
offences. He then presented the Petition, wl. ich was
read at length by the Clerk. It was the coon terpart
of that recently presented to the other House of Par-
liament ; and the effect of its detail and pray er was
what had been stated by the Noble Lord in Isis in-
•troductory observations.
On the question for its lying on the table,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he lose try no
means to offer any opposition to the Noble Lord's
motion, or yet to enter into any discussion of tho im-
portant topics to which the Petition referred, as Other
opportunities would arise for that purpose—but
chiefly to advert to a consideration connected with
it, which was rather a matter of fact than of opinion.
That there was a great increase in the commission of
vinous offences, was undoubted ; but it was impor-
tant to consider how far such arose out of the pecu-
liar state of the country, proceeding chiefly from the
transition from a state of war to on of peace. This
was a material consideration, and it naturally led to
a view of the state of the country in such respects,
at former pefods of a similar nature. This state in
a great measure arose from the reductions which ne-
cessarily took place in our naval and military esta-
blishments, and which, in the present instance, were
great, far beyond any former example. A compara-
tive reference to the accounts of former periods,
would tend to sliew the degree, or how far what was
lamented at the present period was attributable to
such a cause. Formerly, however, it was not usual
to lay such documents before Parliament. There
was, he believed, no regular presentation of accounts
previous to the time he had the honour to 6.11 the
office of Secretary for the Home Department, when,
in 1805, there were returns made regularly twice a
year of the numbers of capital offences, executions,
&c. particularly such as occurred periodically in
London and Middlesex, and these had since been re-
gularly delivered in. If, therefore, tilse returns of
late years, comparing the number of convictions
which took place in periods of war with those which.
took place at period: of transitions from a state of
war to that of peace, it would clearly appear, that
the numbers were perhaps inconceivably greater on
the latter occasions. The Noble Minister then 'en-
tered into some detail of comparison, as to the num-
ber of capital convictions, executions, &c. in periods
preceding and succeeding the Anierisan war, begin-
ning with the year 1'777, and ending with 1785, the
former year having 63 (in London and Middlesex),
and the latter.,lsl, which clearly she..vcd the pro-
gressive increase in the latter periods ; and these he
compared with what took place for a few years be-
fore tad stsce the conclusioa of the late war, which,

on a specification of the nniibers, shelved the im-
mense increase occurring iR the recent instance. It
was proper, he thought, that these considerations
should bis attended torin order that it may be seen
how far the same effect operated at intervals of tran-
aition from a state of war to one of peace ; and he
thought it right to trouble their Lordships with these
observations, which would tend to enable them to
form a just conclusion as to causes which contribu-
ted so largely to the recent great increase of these
serious offences. The subject would come under
their consideration in some other shape. They might
easily conceive the effect of necessarily having great
numbers of men discharged from our naval and mi-
litary establishments, which were recently extensive
far beyond all former precedent, and the lamented
consequences adverted to, must naturally be expec-
ted to be great in proportion.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE concurred with
the Noble Earl in some degree, but by no means to
the full extent of his inferences. The lamented in-
crease of crime did not, he observed, particularly i
take place at the period of transition from. war to
peace, as the greatest increase was in a period of
peace, and in some degree during the continuance of
war. The causes were to be attributed to the state
of the country in other respects. The increase of tax-
ation might be regarded as the principal ; the fluc-
tuations of property had also some share in produc-
ing it ; but he did not think that the reductions in
our naval and military establishments hid by any
means that share in contributing to the evils in ques-
tion ; indeed it was rather a matter of surprise that
the number of soldiers and sailors convicted was
comparatively so small. The great increase eijuve•
nile delinquency was also a lamentable cause, and
with this that which the Noble Earl adverted to had
little or nothing to do, as appeared plainly on the
face of the returns. The state of the great raanufac-
' tories, and the baneful practice of crowding such
numbers of young persons together, might also be
regarded as a cause ; and he farther thought the
effect of our extensive reduction was now compara-
tively trifling, as we were now in the fourth year
of peace.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL shortly explained, as
to the effect of some of his statements, which he re-
garded the Noble Marquis to have misconceived.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE continued his ob-
servations. The increase of crime of late years was
beyond all former precedent ; it was in a threefold
ratio. In concluding, he trusted those most impor-
tant topics to which the Petition referred, would
meet with the full and calm consideration of Parlia-
ment, with a view to the thorough reirisal of a sys-
tem so truly alarming and pregnant with evil.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL farther explained, that
the data to which he had referred, was by no means
assigned as the general cause ; but that its conside-
ration formed a material and prominent feature of
the subject.
Lord KING expressed his opinion, there was but
little hopes to be entertained of really meliorating
the state of the country in these respects, until the
ancient and wholesome system of payments in specie
would he again recurred to. The monopoly in which
the Bank was indulged for the exclusive issue of
small notes, was, he held, injurious in more respects
than one ; and particularly it fostered the injurices
and much-exclaimed-against practice of forgery, in
Oa much as it rendered that Corporation quite care-
less in that respect ; whereas the Country Bankers,
by exerting a proper degree of vigilance, were little
liable to such impositions. The clumsy manner in
which the National Bank Notes were fabricated, also
afforded much facility to forgeries. Let cash pay-
ments be again restored, and the Bank deprived of
those exclusive advantages which it was not entitled
to by its Charter, and the most salutary consequences,
he thought, would follow.
The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table.