Star.
London, England, 1816-05-08 00:00:00

aad PritlgopeVita YtiM'e uosfettoiled.
brass, ata Irma were coofettodedi
.1),; got thag ca was the best of
itandard wici bKi. It vies •surious,
'Worth their LOrdips' Altestlton; that
existed. and • bad been for yews suppo
ininiter, where weights and measures were stamped'
without any examination as to their real properties.'
Measures with falle bottoms, • weights unexamined,
all. were .sanetiotted .with the official stamp. of *
Westminster Office. . There was one material point
ffeliting to Measgrell which their .Lordshiple ought to
fiddle of. There was a great difference: between
measure full mid. heaped, but the Bill acknOWledged
obssich differettce... The principle! adopted . by the,
Governig,C.nt, eansell, that of decitual-rule,
ought to be adopted genMally, arid appeared to be
she only safe rid sliregiiide of proceedihg upon.—
The scientific,..eir rather, as he.should cal it, the un-
scientific Bill, set.torth that the difficilty arose fesnia"
there beuig " fro fixed standard in nature tor ths
propose." ,Butdid they endeavour to sdpply that
itetect of Oaturel • No, no such thing. They did
itriiiiing of the kina,, 'nor':knew nothintai the kind.
4'hexottOt to have supplied,and fortified their feeble
,aisderstanding with the intelligence Which surround-
atel them. The French had-reduced the principle 19
clear and distinct points—the heiglith of the therms.,
meter end the pendulum. Hi's.L.ordship concluded
by moving, that the second 'reading of the Bill be
.
postponed to that day six months.. •
Alter "a few • observations from Lord MELviLut,,
trig mobvD was agreed to. • • ... • .
It was agreed, however, upon the motion ofllle
Marquis If LANs!) ,WNK, th s an Address should
be presented to the CroWn, for the appointtacnt of
a Committee of scientific men . to examine the ques-
tion, and to report their,ptoceedings to the lousa•-••
Adjourned.

HOUSE OP COMMONS. •
Mr. &lout ONNI.OW postponed his Motion concerning the
intere,t Laws, to Thursday the usd.
A Petition from the loot- epers in the neighbourhood of
Ill'ideby, against the inmost') License Duey, was laid ea the

table. - -
Mr. liortio, from the Colonial Department, brought up
Accounts of tholuantity of I obacco imported.—Lid en the
table.
Mr. Biter, .frrYn the Bank, brought up an Account of the
number of dank-11.4es in circulation up to Siturday last, and of
the fury:: Sank-tares refused to bJ paid.—laid on the table
General i NON t'ON moved that the Papers be printed.--
:awe were &Al, •tto last year of those forged Bank-notes, and
thls,year it was probable they would he £lO,OOO. He thought,
by a proper caution, tie difficulty of &riling could be-so much
istcrasati as to be almost a 'nevelt:ion.
Mr. W. smaki said, that the Bank bad used all their Inge-
-nutty' td try to devise sumerktit Dr litt to prevent forger/ in vain.
He, hOwe'vetrd woukl'hot oppose the thothrn. .
. Atter stow words (rune Mr. Coawan, Mr. SWAMIS, Mr.
Pear lus, and (lateral l'uouterou, the Motion Was agreed we
a.thi lie . semi's ordered•M be printed.
' Mr. tiliZ49ol% presented retitiolisfrom the Tanneri of Louth
aunt Warwick, agal st the Le at her [UT and from l'ivertan,
against any alteration 311 die Woown Trade.—laid ci,, the table.
htieW:SMI I il renewed user dropped notice irspectiog toe
taitott. in Aid, tot the 10th ioataot - • • '
Sir EA;kItIUN !WY i/Gtii moved fee leave Sebring sn two
dills, to amend the At.. felltllle to the Pour, and to'lbe removal
of Paupers. Ihe subject was very toteresting to'humaiiity, as
ebb Paupers stilf.red must cruet hardships dosing and. alter their
I aninal• kk W4liitki tat they khould no• be temnied nil their
'jars. Was .011ein ,sitird. • I tenon's. of removal hi also wished,
snast4 tpi. are. IST pariah resnotns. ask would be er.las•A on the
wail:. l.• I,ire. watit•tu deiate of Parishes to seniors ?sows
ideavegrailio,.
• Ike -.4f.ii *ere then brotight in and read aam time, and after'
alhet'vrostus atom Mr• LuawaN and Mr Z. Barsaas, ordered
‘tel-los lead-isecond tune on Wedatei,.sy sesunight.
Mr UAlfilsh tilLibli obtasuro leave to bangle a Bill to re-
moter dthiculties in comments. unetulas weans* Wont mines; he
also obtained leave to bring is a bin to etiabie Corporations to
adenine Lands, to enlarge Vintners's and Chunk-yard., stole

Mr. HUSKINsON obtained leave to brio' in a Old to aolood
the Act of last Saigon, for Paving and Lighdog tM new atm%
opposite to Carlton Houle.
Mr, CALVERT wished to know from the Chan-
cellor 9f the Exchequer, whether any thing would
be done with regard to the increased license duties I
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that a plan was in contemplation to render the
burdens less heavy.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that he saw a Material
'alteration in the Malt
,Duty Drawbaclßill from what
it was as first prestnted to the House, and he wished
to know the reason.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that he was not aware that any alteration had
been made, or could be made, before the Bill NM
into a Committee.
The SPEAKER thought, thft the subject Was
very important, and ought to be taken ioto ima►s.
dente consideration. The alteration of a* Bill, after•
it Was presented to the House, was a breach of privi-
lege. The Right Honourable Baronet, if he did his
duty, ought immediately to move for a Committee
to take the subject into consideration. • ,
Sir J. NEWPORT explained that the alteration
was in the draft of the Bill, w►ich he had seen in the
office. •
The SPEAKER said, that there might be, with.
out any breach of priiilege or propriety, an altera-
tion in the draft of a _Bill, and therefore wished that
the Right Honourable Baronet, whom he thanked
for his vigilance, would take no farther Seep for the
present, till there should be time for inquiry.
Mr. LUSHINGTON signified that the. Sheri-
tion was only in the office draft; in which he was
supported by the CHMICILLOR of the EXCUIQUZIL
Mr. BROUGH4grished to know whether there
existed any crisis or circumstances in. the •Isle of
France, which justified the forcible sending of per.
i son' out of it ? fie asked this question, because be
knew a person who was seat home from that colony,
and kept.s close prisoner for 139 days, and whii, on
application to the •Government here, was told. he
might return, but hat-Ss. a day, which had been
allowed for his support, stopped. He.wisbed also to
know the reason of this stoppage ? . •
Lord CASTLEREAGti withal $ NAY giving
an-answer. " " • .
ABDUCTION 01 ISTABLIIIIMISTP• • •
Lard ALTHORPE, in rising ao make the nso.
Lion of which he lied given notice, tor a Committee to
inquire into the Public Offices. with a-view to the re-
duction of establishments, felt that it was not fleas.
miry for him to go muck into detail: The present
distress of the country was sigreat, that every. per-
son acknowledged the necessity of the strictest mop
amity. But to relieve this distress, it was not Mali
savings would be suffi.Cient. The people of'the coun-
try' ought to be satisfied that every tossible retrench-
; :tient was adopted he helloed that bythe-adop.
tion Of such retrenchment very considerable sir lags

toil* I

very Am &ding
he.'"ukted- his
liikters, but
attention ro
expected they

arse perhaps bis view might have been so et--
pessaries as lo justify their inattentir:i ; but as he con-
sekitionsly fielieved that the retrenchment which he
rimed out couldbe adopted without any inconve
*nee to the public, apd would be productive of
eery great savings, he considered it his duty 'to move
kit the Committee of whi6 he had given tiotice.—
He wished tl:at the Committee should inquire* into
All the Yoblie Offices, and that it they found any of
them, or the situations in them, inefficient; they would
tit to the House. He should not go into the
rallt of patronage ; •and he begged to assure the
House, that he acted from no feelings of party or
prejudice, but (rem what he considered his duty to
the public demanded. ii 1786 a Committee had
been appointed for the same purpose for which he
now wished one to be held, and it had carefully and
diligently exeiniiiee into all the den atments, with ,
great laboer to itself, hut with miich eilisiaction tol
'that House end to the country.. Szvcral Committees
lied been held on the same suok.et between that year
. d 1798, one particularly in 17:45, which had greatly
.exerted itself. lei iSO6 there had been another which
Dead expiessed itself very etrongly against the most
gross abuses which it discovered. There were many
abuses, however, which had not been touched upon
by those. ComMittees, which had been augmented for
lupwards of musty years. It was for the examine-
:ion and reform of these that he was principally
Anxious that a Committee should sit ; and upon ,
such abuses he could scarcely see how. the House
Lanai' refuse a thorough investigation. And it should
be recollected, that he wanted the investigation at a
dine when economy was necessary in every depart-
Latent, and when it had been promised by the Prince
Regent in his Speech front the Throne, at the com-
mencement of the Session. In the discussion on the
office of Third Secretary of State, an Honourable
Member had said, when it was suggested as p?oper,
that part of one office should be fulfilled by another,
that the business wee already so great, that it was
impossible to make the alteration proposed ; whilst
another Honourable Member, equally well acquain-
ted with the office in question, said, that the business
of both offices might very well be done wader one se•
perintendAnt. Suela a difference of opinion with
Gentlemen who knew the different situations,-was a
very strong reason indeed for entering upon the in-
quiry which he wished the Home to grant a Com-
Imittee for prosecuting. It was necessary to examine
into the state of all offices, and the most convenient
and impartial mode .0 examining into them would
be, to have a Select Committee appointed from the
House. The conduct of Government should be par-
ticularly remarked on this • subject ; scarcely two
days after he had given notice'of hi% present motion,
a Cuttinsittee had been appointed by the 'nesse,: y,
nominally for the very same purpose for which he
was so anxious to have a Committee- appainzed by
the House. Hit had been before he had given notice,
hr should have bad the-same opinion of that Com-
mittee as he now entertained. Was there any ap:
pearance of use redemption of the pledge which had'
been given to the country for a general reduction ?
Had not -salaries been increased instead of dimini-
shed ? Had his Majesty's Ministers ever shown die
least inclination towards economy till it was Abso-
lutely forced upon them by the House ? The House
had promised to promote retrenchment: that pro-
mise ought to be redeemed, and it ought to be the
ditty of every man to forward its redemption. The
Noble Lord concluded by moving—" That a Select
Committee be appointed to examine and ',insider
what ;amine or diminution there has been since
1798 in the number et amount of the salaries and
emoluments of the Public Offices ; and that they re-
port from time to time what farther measures can be
taken without detrimeut to the public service."
The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXCHEQUER,
after All he had beard stated from the Noble Lord,
did not think, that any grounds bad been alleged on
which a just suspicion might be entertained Against
Mitustirs. He had said, that no reduction had taken
place whatever; he was ready to 'hew there had;
and if he shewed this, it would be plain that the No-
ble Lord was under e great mistake. He had moved
for a Committee to inquire into the increase or dimi-
nution of salaries and of offices since 1798. It woulli
be plain how superfluous the Committee was-when it
was known that returns had been annually laid befint
the House, by whieb the amount and difference of the
salaries at different mimes would he distinctly seep, .
and that by taking these returns in on one 'point of
view, the Noble Lord would be enabled to judge of
What reductions bad taken place, eind'etebat xeduc.
dons would take place. He was very tar indeed 'from
thinking that the inquiry wished for by the Nuble
Lord would be useless; on the contrary, ha ima- '
shied that suchUtt Inquiry would be productive of
the most beneflcialeffects; but he could not think
that this was exactly the time for pressing such a pro-'
position, nor couldbe think that the inquiry would be
made so well as by his Majesty's Ministers themselves.
In the year 1782, and from that time to 1798, a
succession of enquiries bad been made respecting va-
rious suspected guises, and though the Committees
had not bad perhaps their expected effect, they were
,beneficial in one way ; 'they operated to keep down
new anctexpeniive establishments; and, if it had not
been for them, it was evident that many of the
branches of the war expenditure would have been
much larger if those Committees had not existed.—
He hoped the Noble Lord would me the propriety of
leaving thilenquiry in the bands of those respectable
Gentlemen whose business it was to exarnineinto the
abuses, and that he would not attempt .to bring a
motion forward for a Committee at so late a period
of the Session. He would ask the Noble Lord and
the House, whether, when 'the Committee had moved
for, Mid before they had received returns to their in-
quiry, the Session would not. be' drawing nearly to a
close I Besides, it ought to be remembered, that a
Committee on ibis subject tended to remove the me-
sponiibility' of Ministers from iliem, and to lay the
burden on the Committee. He did not by any means
wish to direct the opinion of the House, or to pre,
judge the question, but merely to remind 'them that
'as it we's', the pledge of . Ministers would rernain in
full force, and they would be answerago•for Its• re
demptioni whereas, with the Committee it Would be

I

ffe•ii

'
le.
, . .
entirely otherwise. Seek on investigation, he though;
.m 6 better ender the more immediate direction et
his Majesty's Government, as, from every einm
e.-
Fe an ces it eyelike he a very dfficult meter iteleed for
a Select Committee, to go the 'ugh with such an ee
qUiry as rapidly as was necessary. Great alterationl
had been made In public offices. •fnent• time in tiese
the war had brought about great chan7,es-the pu
expenditure was increased unevoidebly, and ~,,h;tl .
way soever the Committee ettiglit proceed, the prig,
ciple by which they • would be gutded, of reduce.
as far as 'was censistent -with public safety, %reel
still continue the same. The House might be aware
chit the reductions which had been made since nice-
conclusion of the peace, were larger, and bum
about inn shorter time than on any framer etetebeit
*occasion-inn& when every thing :hewed that G;
vernment were in a fair way of returning to the r- '
detation of a peacoestablishment, Was there to be .
°,.
Select Committee to unhinge the whsle of the pr-."
ceedings, and to destroy the rent %seek of econtirn;•
which, it 'would he seen by theflouse shorle, had
beeu so successfully commenced i Considerelik re.
trenchments had eiready been made ;n tee office, of
'the three Secret tries of St.te, in the office „f 11,
Cmmiairder in Chief in the War-o ffice, in the reg
of Agent General, and 'in she' Army Board, In the
Navy Board there had been, a reduction of upwards
of se400,(00 e in the Cotondieseriet Department they:
had been a seduction cf dt14,000; in the Victililli.e,
• Office *5e25,000 had been saved; and the Ttanspeti
Office had been entirely abelislreel.• Thesereeestione
were made where it 'was perceived by n
.....Tmernrnertt
that they were absolutely necessary, and how ea, it
to be expected that a Committee should act whh any
of the necessary dispatch, which only acted as it
were by second hand ? The reductions which he ha
stated were only part of one plan which Minister
were pursuing, and he hoped that much more would
be done during the present year than had breath
ready accomplished. These reductions were not eil *I lay
applicable to parliamentarrforms, whilst they could
be made with the greatest expedition by the method
which had already been adopted. Circulars had been
seat to all the heads of the departments, who had
attended or would attend the Committee who ems
sitting, and they had proceeded tin reduce all the war
salaries and esteblishmeties which were unnecessary
in time of peace. He agreed in the views of the
Noble Lord in general, though he conceived it to be
much better to 'IIAV r no Committee, such as he had
moved for at present. The Right Hon. Gentlemss
concluded by moving the previous question.
Lord MILTON rose to support the original Mo.
Lion, and 'observed, that lie ceeld not place the same
sonfideoce in the discretion oreiecision of Govern.
ment that the Right Honourable Gentleman did; he
was therefore anxious for the appointinent of a Com.
mittee. When Government were left to their own
course, for example, they were determ.itted to pursue
the Property Tax.-(clear, hear, hear.) When they
were left to•their -owe discretion, •it was f, unit nem.
sary to beet them out of the larger Estimates which
they first proposed.-(Hear, hear.) 'Tice Right Ifo.
nottrabie Gentleman had gone through the reductions
.
to the Public Departmeets r for the eriacipel one-
the £400,000 in te. Navy Office-the Public would
doubtless, be graueui. But all those redections ie.
(erred to the clerks and underlings of office, and not
to those quarters to which the Public looked fitr a
reduction-namely, the higher and more important,
in point of anteunt, breeches of official service-
branches that involved much of the real evil *bid
was the cause of compkint -en evil not alone of a
pecuniary nature, but which was equally tett from
the character of its influence.-(Heee, hear.) The
' Noble Lord then referred to the luntibous ..eeirch of
Mr. Burke, in the introduction of his plan of retorts,
in 1780, and observed bpun iliedifference between
the measures then adopted and the original intention
of the great Reformer. Whatever distresses
had fol•
lowed the American war, which at that time had tete
minated, they could not haye exceeded those-of the
present times. Here he begged to observe, that the
relief intended to be tendered (so Far as he under.
stood it) to the 'Agricultural Interest,- was not likely
to be effectual ; on the contrary, he• feared that the
sudden rise in the price would be attended with
equally fatal consequences.-(Hear, hear.) On the
Point of responsibility, where would be the harm of
superseding that of Ministers on this occasion? or if
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) and his cnlleagues
under the Treasury Commission were the best persons
. . .
. ,eo.assist ,in the inquiry, why .not unite them in the
oppointment-of a Committee ? The benefit of their
itreeperitence would then be felt: they would form a
tent of fox for the hounds to follow in the pursuit of
the game of grievance. .But where would be the slit:
-kith, in the business :of this .Committee ? They
could, as well as the Noble Lord and his colleeetwe
call fur returns from the heids of departments. Bete
he could not hnt.allude to the particular moment it
which the Noble Lord's Committee w..s appointed.-
' it was the 'day . after his Noble Friend ( Lord Althorp)
had gieennotice of' his intention to call for inquiry
(Hear, hear.) If Ministers had seriously iatended in.
quint, why riot, when that notice was given, have
intimated that intention ? 'filey bad not done so;
and it was therefore to be inferred, that his Noble
Friend's notice had either suggested, et- at least ace.
,located, their proceeding in• this respect. (Iltar.)Il 1
was needless for him to impress upon the House de
importance of the Petitions which had been presestel
by the People : nothing had been done by the Hose
,to redress the grievances of which they complained.
They had no right to consign to Government Ile
gracious task which was imposed on themselves...
(Hear, heir, hear.) It would be unnecessary now to
point out the particular offices to which the public
attention had•been called. He might, however, 11-
lade to the junior Lords of the Admiralty; but 110
it would be touching a tender chord-it, would he
trenching upon the prerogatives of some cf the man
a
powerful families in the country-an meths_
which the Minister, who called for the undisturbed
confidence of Parliament in his reductions, knew be
could not attempt.-(//ear.) The Noble Lord
tbea
enforced the alarming increase of the intlueoceef to.
Crown, which necessarily arose out of the durstior
of; war. • The House knew the increase of o
'which this.war brought with ie-the number of Lor.,
of the Admiralty and the Treasury who were 931
for their services in that House. 'Tie Noble L°
may look around him.-ILerdCastlereagh herpes!'
'at this: time to look Witter& the seats behind 0,
Ts; assure Buttch.]-Bt* be well knew tho. neceadt

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ia.. r • • • 11,000104 he . greeted. 'go 14.04. -mia
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and it,liiii ' 44.- Wilriteathe octasion, of by hantit a +arta
)1' all foarerbsio , ' Ilia subject. :On li faimeteecasiun ho'
,s, and was w•• Irlaws on, the subject tolis Majesty's Min
that an °Ewell' . Orel did.not appear toAsay;any great at
apported in West. his representatias. Inclied he scarcely 'sr;
Irp. were stamped' would, and perhaps his. view miglst have]
...