Star.
London, England, 1810-02-24 00:00:00

HO ÜbE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 23.

It is finally settled that the Committee on the Tonnage and
Police Bills of Dumfries, shall meet on Tuesday next, the '27th
instant, at twelve o'clock.

Sir FRANCIS BURDi.',TT gave notice, that he meant to call
the sttent!,lZ3 of the !louse on Thursday to the proceedings against
Gale Jones.

Mr. 1-1 MARTIN, at the request of Mr. Whitbread, post-
poned his notice relative to the Finance Resolutions to Monday
fortnight, for the purpose of acceleiating the Inquiry into the
Scheldt Expedition.
Mr. WHITBREAD stated, that he believed his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Alderman Combe) not at present in the House,
would have no objection to postpone his motion, if necessary, for
the above-mentioned purpose.
Mr. SHERIDAN presented a Petition from Mr. Farquharson,
complaining of oppression on the part of the Eenchers of Lincoln's
Inn, in refusing to admit him as a Student, on account of his
baying once been a writer for a newspaper. Mr. Sheridan ad-
Verted to a bye--law of the Society for this exclusion, which he
characterised as not only illiberal and oppressive, but illegal and
unconstitutional. As the Society w•-I4 not a Corporation, there
was no other mode of redress than by an appeal to that House.—
If this rule had been always acted upon, the Society to his certain
knowledge would have deprived the Bar and that House of some
of their greatest ornaments. he complaint of Mr.Farquharson
had first appeared in a respectable morning print in the shape of
letters to the Lord Chancellor, which letters had since been col-
lected into a pamphlet. The Lord Chancellor, however, he was
happy to state, was too liberal to have any concern with the
affair. The regUlation in question had, in tact, been tendered
to the Lord Chancellor's Society (the Middle Temple), and
rejected.
The Petition being ordered to lie on the Table, Mr. SHERI.
DAN gave notice, that on Friday next he would submit a propo-
sition to the House on this subject.
Mr. H. MARTIN stated, that he was not present at the
Meeting of Benchers when the iileberal Regulation in question had
teen adopted, and that he strongly disapproved of it. The only
cuestion with him in his character of Bencher was, the moral cha-
racter of any person requiring admission. He also stated, that the
Illation had been transmitted to the other Societies, and refused.
Lord TEMPLE gave notice for an early day of as Address
to his Majesty, to ascertain by whose advice he had given the
Answer to the City of London Petition respecting the Scheldt
Ispedition.

ENGLISH CATHOLICS.
Mr. WINDHAM presented the two Petitions of the English
Catholics which were presented by Earl Grey in the House of
Lords the day before.
Mr. WINDHAM bestowed the highest encomiums on the
Erghsh Catholics ; and argued, that in sound policy their disabi-
lities ought to be done away.
T,:e Petitions were ordered to lie on the Table.
PAP.IRS RELATING TO THE EXPEDITION, SUPPOSED TO
HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO THE KING
BY LORD CHATHAM.
Mr. WHITBREAD rose pursuant to notice, to
move for whatever papers, memoranda, repoets, Scc.
relating to the Scheldt Expedition, might have been
presented by Lord Chatham to his Majesty. Those
Members who were present at his Lordship's exa-
mination would recollect the questions put to him,
and the answers—upon which the Address he meant
to move, was founded. His Lordship had been asked
as to the Narrative presented to his Majesty, on the
14th of February, and which was now on the table of
the House : and he had also been asked, whether he
had presented any other narrative, paper, report, or
n.e.-neranda to his Majesty on this subject. After a
good many questions put on this point, and a long
tel ty on the part of his Lordship, he at last declined
to give any answer at all—(Hear, hear). This in-
Cue 'd a strong suspicion that he had presented more
papers on this subject to the King; but as the witness
w..s a peer of the realm, it was impossible to press
the matter farther, after be had declined answering.
Via Address, therefore, was, to request that his Ma-
jesty would be pleased to lay the other papers presen.i
ted by Lord Chatham on the table, if any such exis-
ted. This at least was in the power of the House ;
and it appeared the only way by which they could
get at these papers.
Mr. W H ITBREAD then gave a short summary of
the history of this narrative. On the 27th of January
the House had resolved to institute an inquiry into
the policy and conduct of the Expedition to the
Scheldt ; and it was not till the 16th of February that
a e alant officer,a private friend of Lord Chatham,
proposed, that an Address should be presented to his
Majesty to bring the Narrative before the House. In
his Majesty's speech at the opening of the Session, it
was sail, that orders had been given to lay on the
table such papers on this subject as would be thought
satisfactory. Of this Narrative the Ministers could
then have known nothing. It in fact did not exist as
a Narrative at the time; and from Lord Chatham's
evidence, it appeared, that Ministers did not know of
it. Now, however, when it was ascertained that a
paper had been presented to the King of which the
Ministers knew nothing till a few minutes before it
was given, their ignorance of the existence of other
Papers could he no answer to this motion. There
could be no dispute now as to the competence' of
the House to move for papers not pre.sented in an
official form. That, indeed, might have been doubt-
ed ; but the House had decided the question in the
case of the Narrative ; and therefore there was no
question upon that head. Upon the general prin-
ciple applying to Lord Chatham's conduct, in hav-
ing taken advantage of his situation as a Privy
Councillor, to deliver in a paper of this nature to the
King in an official form, it waa unnecessary to dwell.
The theory of the Government, of which so much was
said, did not warrant it ; and it was impossible that
the practice could go on if such things were to be al-
-I,)wed.—(Loud cries (j. hour, hear, froin the Opposition
beaches.) What was tile tender cy of the dispatches
and the journal of Lord Chatham ? In all the dis-
patches from Walcheren, Bath a, and all the places
where the chief operations were conducted, no impu-
tation hid been cast on the navy,,but, on the contrary,
s proceedings had been mentioned in tetras of the
most unqualified approbation.—(Heer,'hear.) In the
Journal too, the delays and disappointments had been
ascribed by Lord Chatham or the Quarter-master Gen-
e-1 to the weather, to the unfavourable state cf the ele-
ments ? But when the narrative appeared, it was found
that in contradiction to the dispatches and the jour-
nal, an imputation was cast upon the naval part of the
expedition, which put the two services directly at issue.
It had been his wish and that of his friends around
him, he believed, to keep clear of any thing that
might occasion an unnecessary disagreement between
the two services, and their questions had been shaped
• with that view. In every case where every thing de-
pended on the co-<:peration of two services, there might
naturally be some differences, from the impatience of
one to proceed with a degree of haite utterly incom-
patible with the situation of the other. Such small

.. _ pat
disagreements depending entirely upon the want of 1 which would justify the House, in point of preccdent,
perfect information in the one service, of all the cir- Ifor agreeing to such an Address. If such Papers
cumstances bearing upon the other, might be properly !existed, as they were private and confidential papers,
ivaisecksver and ought to be forgotten. But when would the House wish to search the private escruteire

• .

Lord Chatham, the. Military Commander of the ge. of his Majesty ?—(Loud cries of Near, hear! from the
H.
pedition, had presented to his Majesty personally a Opposition Benches.)
discretion, e thought that the House,
paper containing direct imputations on the conduct of in the exercise of th eir would not call for
the naval service, it had become utterly impossible that private papers, if such, did exist; and he therefore
the matter should be permitted to rest where it was. saw no grounds for the motion, and must oppose it.
It was important to attend to other circumstances Mr. PONSONBY said, that if the Right Hon. Se.
connected with this narrative. What happened after cretary bad not concluded by saying he should oppose
Lord Chatham's return to London ? While Lord the motion, he should really suppose that he had in.
Chatham was in London, and the Ministers had tended to support it, for such was the tendency of
complete access to all the information which he could, every observation which he had made. Hs began by
or was inclined to furnish, they had replied to an ad- admitting that it was the undoubted right of the
dress of the City of London calling for inquiry, that House to present such an Address, and in that he en-
his Majesty had not thought it necessary to institute tirely agreed with him. But then the Right Hon.
any inquiry into the conduct of the expedition, naval Gentleman said, that if the House were, in the exer-
or military. But if this narrative had been before cise of its discretion, to agree to such an Address,
them, or any information of thisnature had been given, Ministers would not know where to find the papers ;
it must have been impossible for them to have re- and he asked, were they to search the King's pri-
frained, if they had any regard to their duty, from vote escrutoire ? Was this language, or was this doe-
advising his Majesty to institute an inquiry at least trine for a British Secretary of State to hold to a
into the naval part of the expedition. Mr. Whitbread British House of Commons ?—(Leud cries of Hear,
then said, that he assumed, because it was not denied Hear !)—Was it to be said, that a Report of the
by Lord Chatham, that his Lordship had presented Commander in Chief to his Majesty upon the Expe-
other papers to his Majesty on this subject. The ditiou now under enquiry, ought to be considered as
silence of Lord Chatham warranted this assumption a mere private and confidential paper? (Loud cheer-
-(Hear, hear.)—and it was in order to enable the I ing). If this be so, every other General who happens
House to do itsduty properly, that these papers should ! to be a favourite, may at any time go up to the
be produced. Ministers might certainly have been King, and privately put into his hand statements
as ignorant of the existence of any such papers, as he tending to prejudice and poison his Royal mind
was, till he put the question to Lord Chatham, a against the most brave and meritorious officers, who
thing far from improbable, considering the discor- by this secret proceeding may have their characters
dant materials of which their Cabinet was composed' most foully calumniated without the least notice or
—(loud cries of Hear, hear)—and his Lordship might, i suspicion, and therefore without a possibility of de-
to any questions of heirs upon that point, have said', fending themselves. How galling must it be to the
as he did last night, that he declined giving any an- , feelings of any distinguished Officer, to suppose
saver. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) But could they 1 that charges and imputations against him might
deny, that other papers had been presented to his Ma-''bej poured in secret into the ear of his Sovereign,
.jesty, besides the narrative ? If they could make such ; and the Royal mind thus prejudiced against him ?
a denial, that was one way of deciding the matter ; (Hear, hear.) It would be subversive of every princi-
hut if not, then it became the duty of the House, to I ple of justice, or of the constitution, that such papers,
insist upon the production of the other papers, if any I placed in the hands of the Sovereign by a Minister,
such existed. (Hear, hear.) Now, continued Mr. should be conceived private and confidential papers,
Whitbread, observe how the matter would have stood, 1 which the House could not call for. The Right Hon.
if there had been no inquiry. All would have ap- , Secretary had been most bountiful in allowiag that
Feared fair and open between the two services, on the , the House had a right to present such an Address if
face of the public documents ; but still there would they thought proper ; but he said, that in the exercise
have remained, lurking behind in the King's closet, a of this right the House must be governed by its dis-
direct accusation by the Military Commander, against cretion. Now he would wish to ask that Right Hon.
the Naval part of the Expedition ; accusations, of Secretary whether, according to his ideas of discretion,
the existence of which, those concerned could have he thought it was discreet to allow every Commander
had no idea—and which, therefore, they could never in Chief the power of putting what reports he pleased
have had an opportunity of repelling. (Loud cries , into the hands of his Majesty, without the House of
of Hear, hear.) This was the system of favouritism— ! Commons exercising their right (which the Right
a system, which was not only abhorrent to the nature Hon. Secretary allowed they possessed) of praying
of the constitution, but one which a limited monarchy ' his Majesty to grant them copies of such Reports ?
could not endure (hear, hear) ; and it had always (Hear, hear.) Of all the mischiefs which could flow
been the complaint of those who wished that the from the access which Lord Chatham's sipation as
democratical part should retain its due energy, that , Peer and Privy Councillor would give him to his
the Royal Person was frequently surrounded by mi- ' Majesty, the greatest evil would be, that of his being
nions, by whom his Majesty's best subjects were mis- allowed to pour into the Royal ear whatever charges
represented and calumniated without the possibility of , he thought proper, against meritorious Officers ; and
bringing the truth to the ear of the Sovereign. (Loud' that the House of Commons, when solemnly engaged
cries of hear, hear !) He had a right to presume that .in Inquiry upon this Expedition, should be told that
there were other papers ; and he had a right, under ; they must not be informed what those reports or do-
the circumstances, to presume farther, that these pa- ! cuments contained, which the Right Honourable Se-
pers contained direct charges against the navy (Hear, i cretary was pleased to describe as private and confi-
hear !), for the narrative, which was willingly pro- dential papers, merely because they had not been
1
duoed, contained every thing short of direct charges. sent (as they ought to have been) to the regular office
I How far such charges might be well founded, would 'of the Government. If favourites are to have unli-
be a matter for future consideration. It had been 1 mited access to the person of the King, and are to be
said, that the narrative was drawn up as early as allowed to give what statements they please in wri-
I October—that it had been kept close till the other tang, and the House of Commons are not to see these
day, and had not been shewn to Ministers till now. writin s, he really could see no difference between
They had no opportunity of giving their opinions , their Monarchy and the most absolute Monarchy.
11 upon it—but a Cabinet Minister, the Military Com- He could not see that a purer system of fatvuritisat
wander of the Expedition, communicated directly ever existed in the Monarchies of France and. Spain.
with his Majesty upon a great public question, with- Lord Chatham yesterday told the Committee , that he
out having thought it at all necessary to consult his had not mentioned the narrative to any of his C 01...
colleagues. He had then a right to presume that pa- leagues, until a few minutes before he presented it at
pens had been presented to his Majesty by Lord Chit- the Levee. He believed that there was hatedly an
I
ham, containing stronger accusations than those that instance of any Minister in this country ever conduc-
were to be found in the narrative. In justice then to tang himself to his Colleagues in such a manner. In
the gallant Officer, Sir Richard Strachan—in justice this debate the person of the Sovereign and. his per-
to the Officers serving under him, and to the navy in sonal character and honour (for the honour of the So.
general, he called upon the House to address his Ma-/ vereign is connected with the honour of his Comman-
jesty for the production of these papers. (Loud cries ders) had been brought forward for the purpose of
of Hear, hear.) Let the Ministers find them where- protecting a Minister who was supposed to be a fa-
ever they were—that was their business, and not that vourite. Did the Right Honourable Secretary mean 1
of the House. They would not, he hoped, be per- to say, that his Majesty would wink at the calumni- 1
mitted to cast upon the King the imputation of re- atom of so distinguished an officer as Sir Richard '
fusing papers, the production of which was essential Strachan, and that he could hear with indifference
to enable the gallant Officers concerned to meet the imputations thrown against the Commanders of his
accusations brought against them, as well as noes- navy ? Such a conduct would be as contrary to the
sary to satisfy the public mind. The King could do honourable mind and feelings of our Sovereign, as it '
no wrong—the Ministers were responsible. The task would be perfectly consistent with the low, paltry, and
of finding the papers rested with them ; he was sure contemptible cunning of some of his advisers. (Hear, 1
it was the proper task and duty of the House to agree hear.) If this motion was resisted, it was not from
to the Address which he would now move. He con- tenderness to the feelings of his Majesty, but it was
eluded by moving : e That an humble Address be to screen the imbecility of his Ministers, who knowing
presented to his Majesty, requesting that he would that they were not able to defend themselves upon
be graciously pleased to order that there be laid on their own merits, took every opportunity to introduce
the table of the House Copies of all Papers, Reports, the person of their Sovereign to protect and screen
Memoranda, &c. &c. delivered, by Lord Chatham re- their weakness and imbecility.
lative to the Expedition to the Scheldt." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'
Mr. Secretary RYDER said, that he did not at- did not think that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Secree
tempt to question the right of the House to present tary Ryder) had exposed himself to those violent at-
such an Address to his Majesty, if they thought it tacks, and constitutional censures and animadver-
proper ; but he would contend, that, in the exercise I sions which had been thrown oui against him. His
of that undoAbted right, they should always confine I Right Hon. Friend had distinctly stated that the
themselves within the limits of discretion. There was House had an undoubted right to vote such an Ad- 1
one observation which had fallen from the Honour- dress, if they thought proper • but that the House
able Gentleman on the close of his speech, which ap- should deliberately exercise their discretion before
peared to him to be a full answer to all the observa- they came to such a vote. As to official papers, there
tions which had preceded it. The Honourable Gen- I was no doubt at all but that the House was in the con-
tleman had himself been aware, that if the House stant habit of calling for them; but to what extent
were to resolve upon presenting such .an Address, ' their discretion would allow them to call upon his Ma-
Ministers would not know where to look for the pa- jesty for private and confidential papers was a matter
pas alluded to. He bad no difficulty in stating ex- !of serious consideration. The Honourable Gentleman
pressly that there neither were, nor ever had been any ' (Mr. Whitbread) had however said, that if Ministers
such papers deposited in any of the offices of the Go- I had been in possession of Lord Chatham's narra-
vernmcnt, nor were'the Ministers apprised of the exis- i tive before they advised the answer to the City of
tence of any such papers—(Loud cries of Hear, hear! i London, it was impossible that they could have given
from the Opposition benches). The Narrative of that answer, or that they should not have thought
Lord Chatham had not been communicated to Mi- that the Naval Commander ought to be put upon his
nisters, nor were they apprized of its existence until trial. Now, he would declare, for his part, that if
the 14th of February— (Hear, hear ! from the Opposi- 1 he had seen the narrative at that time, he should not
tion benches)—and that was only a short time before have advised a different answer ; nor did he see in
it was presented at the levee. He believed, however, 1 that narrative any thing which inclined him to think
that no Addresses had ever been presented before to that any Court-Martial ought to be held on the Naval
his Majesty on such occasions, except for the produc- 1 Commander. The whole argument of the Hon. Gen-
tion of official papers (which these were not), or 1 tleman proceeded on the assumption that papers did
praying to be informed who advised his Majesty to . exist, conveying such charges as he supposed were
any - Articular act ? He did not know any thing calumnious against the Naval Commander. Whe-
. . .
lid

ther there di . exist such papers, •he could not say ;
but he was not conscious they did exist. All the
impression .which the narrative made on his mind
s, that foul weather and bad wi;ds premted

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