Star.
London, England, 1803-03-29 00:00:00

DUNFIRMLINI ILECTIOW.

The Order of the Day was read, that James
Trotter be brought to the Bar : and then
The Srcaa: a laid, Before I put the queftion, I
mua take the liberty of reminding the Houk, that
in this mode of proceeding, when the prifoner is
at the Bar, no queftion can be put to him by any
one but the Chairman t fo that if any Hon. Mem-
bers have any quefiions to ask, they will be pleafed
to put them down on paper, and give them to the
Chair. This would be necetfary to be done befbre
he was called to the Bar.

The Cvaicass.oe of the E.:olives, laid, he
did fuppofe, that fucb Hon. Members as had it in
contemplation to elk any queßions of the prifener,
would, in refpea to the dignity of the Houle, be
prepared with them in wriung, in order to be put
from the Chair.

Mr. Ti Laid, that he had no particular
queflions to a& He fuppofed.the prifoner was to
be brought to the Bar to know what he bad to fay
in mitigation of the crime of which be had been
guilty. For his own part, be was fatisfied with
the Report of the Committee on this fubjea ; and
unlefs he had tome firong reafons to offer in his
defence, he Should think him an object deferring
the punilltment of the Houle.
' The queßlon was then put, that James Trotter
be called to the Bar, and ordered accordingly.—
As soon as he appeared at the Bar,
The S laid to him, 44 The &lea COM•
mime, appointed to try the merits of the Dun
fermline Contefted Eletlion, have reported that
you, having been duly ferved with the Speaker's
warrant, commanding you to appear before the
raid Committee, have sot appeared before them
and I am now to At, what you have to fay in ex.
tenoation of year crime
The Clerk then took down the prifoner'sanfwer,
which he afterwards read at the table, to the fol-
lowing purport I was not at home for tea

days after the Cat notice was ferved, being Arent
on private buftnefs. The fccond time it was ferv-
ed, I was out early in the morning, and my fa-
mily did not fend it after me. jam fineerely forty
for baying offended the Houfe i and had I known
the dangerous confeguences of my conduEl,
would not have aged as I have done. It is tht
Orli time I have ever offended by a neglea of my
public duty, and if the Houfe (hell be pleafed to
pardon it, I will not offend in like ananer in fu.
lure."

Lord Evsiros, Chairman of the Committee,
rote, and (aid, he had conferred wi,t)s many Mem-
bers of the Committee, before he had Rated what
he bad done the other night, who all agreed with
him in the opinion he bad then given, and from
every confideration of the eircumftances of the
cafe, and of the pirnifhment he had already Psi.
fered, that opinion (till remained the fame. He,
therefore, moved, 66 That jarnes Trotter, uow yj
the Bar, be reprimanded and difcharged."
Mr. Ti ERNE y expreffed hirofelf furprifed at th-.
declaration of the Noble Lord ; and infifled, that
being reprimanded and difebarged was net a fuffi-
eient punifhment for fo Ragraist a breach of the
privileges of the Houfe.. -There was only one
precedint, he Paid, of a fimilar cafe, which was
that of Alexander Morris, in t 796 ; and the de.
cifion of the Houfe then was, that it was a grofs
bread; of privilege, and he was fent to Newgate.
Mr. Tierney was p'roceeding to read the minutes
of the Committee, when he was called to order by
Mr. W. DU XDAS. who Paid be could not, in
point of order read thole minutes, as they had not
been on the Table. _ _

This produced a converfation, on the point of
order, between Mr. BRAADE, Mr. W. DUNDAS,
and Mr. To [RIMY who contended, that he had at
lea a right to read? them as part of his fpecch.—
Ile then moved, that the report be read, which
was read accordingly ; and he (hewed, that the
Speaker's warrant was iffued the IL of February;
that the prifoner, notwithitanding two notices, had
taken to the 21(1 of March to Gavel to LondOn,
which was a period of near (even weeks; and from
the whole of his conduit, and even from the de.
fence he had made, be had no doubt, in his own
mind, but be had been wilfully abfent. In point
of proceeding, therefore, he thought himfelf Juni.
fled in moving, that he be committed to New.
gate. He fhOild firit, he Paid, move a refolution.
That be has been guilty of a grnfs breach of
privilege."
Mr. SHERIDAN commented shortly on Come of
the obfervations made, as to the point of order ;
40 laid, he perfectly coincided in opinion with his
I-lon. Friend, that the prifoner was deferving
punifhment of the Houle. It was highly impor-
tant to prated the privileges of the Houfe, which
could not be done, if perfons were allowed to tref.
pars on them with impunity. The prifoner's pwa
defence (hewed the neccffity of convincing the pent
pie at large of this ; for he had avowed, that be
would have obeyed the fummons had he known
the dangerous confeqnences of a contrary condua.
If he, therefore, was muted, other people would
expett to be the fame, and be might return to
Scotland, and fay 10 his country Tien, You fep
how they mature out jullice in the Houk of
Commons; and when you want to carry a point
at a future elation, abfent yourfelf when called
on, and you will be difmiffed with a reprimand, as
I have been. He was, therefore, againfl the No.
ble Lord's motion. _ . _

The LORD AnvocATs OF SCOTLARD raid, be
had every refpee for the privileges of the Houle.
but he thought the authority of the Houfe would
be belt preferved, by (hewing their power of ma
deration. This poor man had offended. not from
wilfulnefs, but rom ignorance. He we, Brit led
into this error from die date of the notice, the §rft
of which was delivered on the 7th of February,
commanding him to appear here on the Bth, the
very next day. This he knew was impolfible, and
he had therefore gone from home when the fccond
notice was (erred. He thought this offence not
fo great as prevarication, which had only been
punifhed by a reprimand. The Committee had
taken into confideration all the circumnances of
his cafe, and had thought that a reprimand was
fulficient. He was entirely of that opinion, and
he thought the Houfe would alio, when they eon-
fidered that he had been obliged to leave his f;•
mily and farm at a very critical period ofthe year;
that he had already been more than a week is
cultody ; had the expences. of his journey np and
down again to defray, as well as his fees; and
there, altogether, he thought formed a punithmen;
fully adequate to the offence be bad thus igno-
rantly been guilty of.
Mr. I. H. BROWIII (aid, he thought the cleft
'tion for confideration was, 'Whether the abfence
originated from wilfulnefs or ignorance? and that
the degree of pun i fbm en t ()multi-follow accordingly.
Lord Due tows (late Mr. Trench) profeled
the utmoft anxiety to fupport the rights and
vileges of the Houle, and to point's with the at.
molt ((verity any attempt to prevent the freedom
of cleftion. Severity, when carried ton far, might*
however, in many inflances be more prejudicial
than lenity blended with a proper degree of firm-
nefs ; the prefent did appear to him a cafe where
'extraordinary feverity was not required. Asti gond
deal had been relied on the cafe of Morrie,. he
thought it hut right to fay that. in the firfk infiance,
he aged criminally with the belt means of infor•
mation, whereas this was a cafe merely of unin-
tentional difobedience. Morrice had only been
three weeks confined in Newgate; he had then beat
difcharged on a petition, ezprelfive of his contri-
tion. The prefent petitioner had already been a
week in the cuflody of the Serjcant at Arms. He
had been obliged to come up to London at a great
expense, and be would be under the neeeSty of
returning at an expellee fiill more confiderables
after an abfenee, attended with the greateltincon-
veniencies. He therefore deprecated any feverity
beyond what the noble Lord's motion involved.--
There was a cafe to which be could not, before he
fat down, help calling the attention of the Houfe.
It was a cafe of John Snick, who, after being duly
itimmoned to attend, and -failing in his appear-
ance, an order of the Speaker was made for taking
Dim itto quawdy. This was on the a tit of March I

; - • •
pit the I3d Of the facile Month the prifoner ap.
kared'at the bar,' and after a (harp reprimand,
wis difeharged. this, he conceived, was a cafe
xery Mach in polat, and would have its dim weight
on the lioufe.
~../4r. Fox raid, he could not conceive how any
perfon who refpelled the exiftente of the privileges
Of that Houfe, could vote for the Noble Lord's
motion. How was it pante to expert that in fu-
ture perfons, who were material witneffes in the
cafe of Elation contefts, but who from motives of
intereft or partiality wifhed to withhold their tef.
timony, could be compelled to give it, if a cafe In
palpable and flagrant as the prefent fliould be
palled over with no other punifhment than a re-
limand, and paying the fees ? Such a procedure
the Houfe would greatly endanger one of its
VIA important Privileges, and redder nugatory
all ft 0 re attempts to compel the attendance of
witnetfes, who, however material to promote the
ends ofjuftice, might choofe to abfent rhemfelves.
He denied that the crime of prevatication in re-
gard
to Election proceedings was more atrocious
than this ; but it was not the nature of the crime
on comparifon that the Houle was now to attend
to, but the neceftity of the Houfe inflicting puni(h.
=enc. This is a crime that cannot be punilhed by
anyother tribunal; and, thereforesthe Houk Should
tre peculiarly aria in teeing that it received the
punifhment that was due to it. The prifoner had
avowed in the defence he had made for himfelf,
that he would not have committed it, had he
known the dangerous confequences. I with, faid
the Hon. Member, to make him know it. If he is
not punithed nobody will know it, and fuch of-
fences may be every day committed with impuni-
ty. From fuch at offence going unpunithed, ex.'
cept by a reprimand, and paying fees and expellees,
the moll ferrous and dangerous confequences were
to be apprehended ; and it would require no very
great portion of arithmetical (kill to calculate the
eipence of a material wirnefs. He adverted to
the argument of the commons from the Speaker's
warrant being delivered on the 7th for him to
appear on the Bth ; but faid, that whatever might
ble the ingenuity of it, it was no excufe of the pri-
toner at the Bat ; for, if admitted, the whole fyr
tern of Jurifprudence would he overturned. i
• The CHANCELLOR of the Exclimosa faid, he
felt confiderable anxiety on the, prefent queftion.
No man could have more refped than he had for
the privileges of the Houfe, for no one was more
truly fenfible of their importance : he was equally
attached on all occalions to the curdle of lenity,
when it could be tiled with fafety, and he wifhed
to pay every attention to the recommendation of
a Committee: He thought if the Houfe was in
ptnffeffion of the minutes on which the Committee
had founded their Report, they would then know
the mad grounds on which the Committee had
seed, and how far the motion to difcbarge the
prifoner with a reprimand was adequate to the
crime he had committed. The Uoufe would then
have the fame materials to judge by as thofe which
had uided tile judgment of the Committee as to
thedegree of puniihment. He would, therefore,
cr
prop°Li e to difpofe of the motion, by advifing his
Noble Friend to withdraw it ; and he would then
stove that the minutes of the evidence, as far as
relates to this man, &ild be laid before the Houle.
, Mr. Ross thought that calling. the prifoner to
the bar, and difcharging him with a reprimand,
would not be a fufficient puni(htnent for his offence.
Mr. G. VAIISITTART exprefed himfelf of the
fame opinion.
Lord Eusrox faid, from what had fallen from
feveral lion. Members who had fpoken, they
teemed to imagine he bed been in(truded by the
Committee to make the motion he had done, but
the fad was not fo; he had only flared that hehad
communicated with feveral Members of it, who
were of opinion with him, but he made the motion
from himfelf.
Mr. T. Gaawvittor faid, that he thought the
motion would be a dangerous and bad precedent
to appear on the Journals; and if, as now put, it
De carried, there would be an end of ali expeida-
tion of preferving the privileges of the Houle.
Lord Eurroe offered to withdraw his motion.
The CHAINCILLOR of the Exciter:yea faid, the
Noble Lord had entirely relieved his mind by the
declaration that he had not aced from the Corn-
snittee. He then moved, "That fo much of the
minutes of Evidence laid before the Dunfermline
Committee as relates to James Trotter) be laid
before the Houfe."
The Loan ADVOCATE of ScOTLAND oppofed this
motion, on the ground that the production of thi
evidence to the Haute, was to aggravate his pu-
nilliment, by adducing another crime than that
charged againft him by the Committee, and all
this on ex pate evidence taken by the Committee
when he was not prefent, which, he contended,
was againft every principle of the juftice and con-
fiftency of the proceedings of the Houfe.
Mr. Hosmousa thought that the production of
the evidence was not to charge him with any other
as a falsftantive crime, but only to underhand why
he had been guilty of this mifeonduCt.
Lord Gcasaaavia was ftrennoufly for going
fo far into the enquiry, as related to any thing
that could throw a light upon the motives of the
prifoner for withdrawing his attendance:
Mr. W. DONDAS wi&d to know, if the Route
was about to adoptpa proceeding fo extraordinary
and illegal, as that of conviding a man upon evi-
dence which he never had an opportunity of filling
or contradicting ?
The CHANCELLOR of the Exoticism thought
that, when brought to the Bar, the evidence might
be read to him ; when he could have an opportu-
nity to (late what he pleafed is anfwer to it.
Mr. SIIIIIDAN faid, be differed from molt of
thule Gentlemen who had fpoken before him. He
did not with that the Houfe (Mold proceed to re-
try the queftion which one of its Committees had
already tried. But it was very material for the
Houfe to know, whether the man, who was now
the fubjea of debate, had been an Agent for one
of the Candidates ; and whether he had, or had
net, alLtled in practices of corruption ? For that
reafon, he withal to fee the evidence moved for.
Mr. Toms, (aid, that if the evidence was 1
11.c:tght to go in aggravation, fo may the prifour 1

in mitigation if he could. For Mance) if he
could prove, that at the fame time he received
the Speaker's warrant, he knew there was an at-
torney looking out to execute a writ upon him, it
would certainly go fomething in the way of miti-
gation.
Mr. BRACCIS raid, that at prefent the Hoare
knew nothing at all about this man, hut that his
name was fo and fo, and that he negletted to at-
tend the fummons of that Houfe. In confidering
therefore, of the degree of punifhment he ought to
receive, it was extremely material to know whether
there were not eircumliances of aggravation at-
tending his offence ; and that could not be known
unlefs the evidence taken before the Committee
was in the poffelEon of the Houfe. The prifoner,
when brought to the Bar, might then Bate what
he had to fay in his defence.
Mr. SmstIDAN afked, if a man who was not on
his oath fhnuld be fuffered to anfwer to fads that
had been fworn to ?

Attar Come ohferyations from the Attorney Ge-
neral, the motion of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer was carried.

SALT.

General GascornE, pnrfuant to the notice he
had given, role to move for leave to bring in a Bill
to equAlixe by weight the bufbel on all Salt im-
ported into Ireland. His reafon, he raid, for pro.
pofing fuch a meafure was, the loft fuflained by
thofe who exported falt to Ireland from Great Bri-
tain; and particularly from the place he had the ho.
nour to reprefent ; in confequence of the inequality
in the duty paid on Foreign Salt and Britifh Salt.
By an ACt of Q2een Anne it was ordered, that the
bufhel of Salt imported into Ireland from Britain
fhould confsft of 561bs. weight. The blithe] of
Foreign Salt conafted of 841bs. For every bufhel
of each kind, a duty of ss. was paid ; from which
it was evident, that left duty was paid on the
Foreign than on the Britilh Salt. The conse-
quence was, that during the left five years, a di-
minution took place/ of the Salt imported into
Ireland from Britain of about 882,0001. left than
during the five preceding years. This circumftance
did excite fome degree of alarm in Lancafhire, and
that was his reafon for bringing.forward the pre-
fent meafure. Should his motion be agreed to, it
was his intention to propofe in the Bill, that the
bufhel of Britifh Salt fhould confift of 841 b. the
fame as the foreign, which, in caufing a (mall di-
minution of duty, would operate as a great relief
to the people of Ireland, particularly the poorer;
and indeed he withed, that in the courfe of fome
time the fait duties, which were always oppreffive
to the poor, might be taken off altogether. At pre-
fent theft duties affeaed the three principal articles
of Irifh manufadure, namely, the linen trade, the
felting of meat, and the making of butter. Thefe
would receive fome degree of encouragement from
the meafure he was about to propofe ; which, al-
though it might at firft caufe a defalcation in the
revenue of about t3,ciciol. a-year, would foon
make up for that deficiency, by preventing the
praltice of fmuggling fait into Ireland, which was
carried on to great extent. The Hon. Member
then concluded- witll making his motion.
Mr. Cour raid, the reafon for the difference in
the meafure which the Hon. General complained
of, arofe out of the difference in the quality of the
two kinds of felt. That which was imported from
Great Britain was white falt; the other, which
came from Spain, Portugal, icc. was what they I
called bay falt : and was not fo fine, or of fo good
a colour, as that which came from Lancalhire.—
But it was ftronger, and the grain of it was larger
than the Britith fait, and it was not fo eafily diC
folved. On this account the ufe of it was indif.
penlible to the falters of provifiens ; and perhaps
it was owing, in fome refpefts, to the ufe of that I
felt, that the Navies
packed op in Ireland for
the ufe of out Navies and Armies, polkaed a qua-
lity not belonging to thofe of other countries,
which was, that they were always preftrved in the
hottelt climates. If the people of Ireland were
not able to purchafe this felt at a cbeaperrate then
any other, the provifion t rade would bematerially
injured, and oar Navy and Army would lore a
great deal of their fupplies. But the mannfaan-
rers of felt in this country had no great reafon to
complain ; for, although the exports to Ireland
might have decreafed. the roports generally to
other places had encreafed ; and the reafon why
left had been, during the laft three years, export-
ed to Ireland was, becaufe the provifion trade
there had fallen off and of cootie the demand
for fah in general became lefs. If the prefent
motion was perfifted in, he Humid be obliged to
oppofe it. The. duties on falt in Ireland were al.
ready voted for the earning year; and he thought I
it would be better to drop the &Ned until the du-
ties fhould be again propofed next year. Nothing
could give him greater pleafore than to promote
any plan which might dinsinifh the duty on fo
ne-
ee(fary an article as fah, and perhaps at fome
more convenient opportunity lie Mould propofe to
reduce the bufhel of bay felt to 561 b. to make it
equal to the bullet of &kith fah; and reduce the
duty OD each from as. to ts. od. At prefect be
molt oppofe the Hon. Gentleman's motion, and
therefore he would move the order of the day.
Sir W. POLTINIT thought
li it Ira, only a fair
point of argument. that • the boy falt was fo fu-
perior in &ea, it Should at lea* be made equal
in weight. As to the provifion trade. that might
be made an object of regulation. He coofidered
that the qualm was not between England sad
Ireland, but betiveen England and Spain.
Colonel Beams. complimented Colonel Oaf-
coyne on the attention he at all times paid to the
concerns of iris Conftitirents, particularly on the
prefent occafion, when both the Merchants of Li-
verpool, as weft as thofe of Ireland, mull feel
themfelves equally interefted. He Paid that the
duty on foreign Salt impos tail into Ireland at pre-
fent amounted to ao,oool. and that if the bellel
were reduced to 561 b. it would produce sa,ooot.
additional duty.
Mr. Coati, explained, and Paid. that he bad men-
tinned his intention of reducing the duty in pro.
portion to the weight.
Colonel Dimwits. declared it was far from his
' intention to mifreprefent the Hon. Gentleman, sad
(aid he was happy in hearing his asiltake cossetted ;

but infilted that what he had aged reTpetting the
fehedule was coned, as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had introduced into his fchcdule the meafure
of s 6 inflead of 84, thereby adding one-third to
the burthen to be borne by the people on the con.
fumption of this moll neeeffary article. lie there•
fore trufted that the fehedults, when introduced,
would be printed, and circulated among the mer-
chants of Ireland eonverfant with this buftnefs, and
appealed to the Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him
(Mr. Vanfittart) whether that pra:lice was not
conftantly adopted in Britain—a meafure certainly
more neceffAry on the prefent occafion, when we
had many Englifh met chants in the Houfe to ap
peal to, but no hill', a circumftance which the
Hon. Gentleman I=2l-Iced.

Mr. Ls E faid that, the queftion (huuld be taken
up as one great commercial confederation, and
not with the narrow view of Ireland only, or Li-
verpool only. The Hon. General and himfelf were
Members of a Committee of 21 Members, which
fat two months upon the confideration of the
falt duty ; and they did not tlym completely de-
cide the quedion. He thought it there6ne no
matter of furprife, that Gentlemen Ihould enter-
tain opinions not exadly fimilar on the prefent
oc-
cafion.

Col. VERIIIIR then made fcrne direa reference
to the fchedule ; when he was called to order by
The SPEAKER, who f.tid it was informal in the
Hen. Member to make any immediate remark on
a paper not then before the Houfe.
After feveral explanations from different Mem-
bers, Ceneral GASCOIGN a confented to withdraw
his motion.

The queflion was then put, that the other or-
ders of the day be read.—Ordered.

MtLITIA•

The Simi TT AI! at WA I moved the third reading of the
Militia Officers Bill.

Lord ARCH/BALD HAMILTON piddled to the Claufe which
relates to the admi6ion of Officers without qualification.
Colonel B.towatc was furprifed at hearing this Clanfe ob.
jeeted to through all the different Rages of the BIM The Hon.
Member laid, he thought, that the pofitlon might be juftificd
by analogy; in that Houfe, for Labiate, no Member,generally
(peaking, was admitted without a qualification as to property,
but in the car,: of the Unive; fides, that quahticatton was not'
deemed neceffsry, as it was wifely Judged that they brought a
fuperior qualification In their learning. Oaten from regiments
of the line be conceived entitleLparticalatiy at the prefent time,
to a 6milar exception,on account of their fuperior knowledge in
tattier. .

Mr. Kir NAIID fuggefted that the orniffion of Scotland in
the dank which relates to Plaid Dicers, might with propriety
be avoided, fevers! refpeetabk Gentlemen from Scotland hav-
ing ezpreffed a wills to that effect.
The Sicaa-rwar at WAR introduced a chute by way of
rider, providing, that if the Lords Lieutenants in Engl ind and
Scotland thould not, within two mouths, be able to procure a
fuffictent number of qualified parlous in the counties their re.
fpettive regiments belong to, they might be at I:berty to app!y
for qualified perfons in other counties.-7 he Bill was the"
puffed, and ordered to the Lords—Adjourned.