Star.
London, England, 1816-06-13 00:00:00

Sift THOMAS THOMPSON.

Mr. CALCRAFT rose to move (or a new writ
for the election of a Member of Parliament for the
town of Rochester, in the tom of• Sir T. B. Thomp-
son, made Trta;urer of Greenwich Hospital. The
Hottoura:Jle Gentleman observed, the question was
one of great impertance to the elective franchise of
the kingdom ; and he was induced to bring the sub-
ject forward, in consequence of a petition from his
constituents, complaining that their rights had been
invaded. The Act providing that the acceptance of
a N.tval or Military Commission immediately led to
the vacating the seat of the Member accepting such
office. But the queuion before noticed was got rid
of, in consequence ofa doubt in law. If, then, any
doubt really existed, it became the House to decide
in favour cf the people rather than of themselves.—
He took a review of the case as it came under discus-
sion on a former occasion, contending that the aim-
logy then insisted on did not actually exist with re-
ference to Sir T. Thompson. In the case of Mm.
13aker, appointed to the same station in 1; :3 that
Gentleman, as a matter of course, vacated his scat.
He saw nog distinction between the two cases. The
right of maintaining his seat was a question purely
supporting the prerogative of the Crown, and not the
rights of the people. He moved a Resolution, pro-
posing that the office was not a Military or Naval
ono, intending to follow it up, if carried, by moving
a new writ.

Mr. BATHURST conceived that the more direct
way of proceeding would have been for the Gentle.
man to have moved for a new writ at once. But, in
tact, the question was one for Parliamentary decision,
and. on all occasions Parliament had looked at the
measure as a military one. Now, with respect to the
appointment, certainly it was, strictly speaking, a mi.
litary one. But though the Hun. Gentleman would
not adniit there was any analogy in the cases, stilt it
was analogous to the construction put on it by the
decision of Parliament. He Could not think that a
person in the situation of Treasurer, having con-
troul over the funds of the Hospital, was to be consi-
dered in any other than a military point of view, and
therefore he was prepared to contend that. the .ap-
puintment was as much a military one as that of a
Master or Governor of the Hospital. But the Hon.
Gentleman had contended that the vacation of Mr.
Baker in 1736, was a case in point. He, however,
must say, that though the seat of Mr. Baker ta as then
vacated, still, in other casts, n• vacation had taken
place. The practice of Parliament, since that time,
had proceeded upon different grounds ; and no doubt,
that would sank* the non-intericrence in the pre-

tlbilt instance. He should, therefore, Tautly
negative upon the present motion, by ing,il.ts
.previogts question.—The gallery was ti.en
a division—For the original motion G 9 —F„rt L:
vious question 63.—N1aprity agatitst Miqisttn,
A new Writ was then ordeted for knelterer. ;*
room of Sir T. Thompson, who has vacated Lis
by accepting a place.

Lc TT ER lES. •
Mr. LYTTELTON rote to call Ole auntie,
of
the House to the subject of Lotteries. Th„ ij
nourattle Gentleman noticed the mischieveus rice,
of this specks of public revenue, and vas ennui,,,;;
that if a proper impression wasemade en eel
mind, it would not be !mg before the evil yti&
completely abolished. He ref :reed te the wen, ceisti
by Lotteries, which he took for granted no 41,0.„,
per annum, to 5.50 or re 560,000. "Pie tickets
contracted for at a given sum, and tree se..
Contractors sold 40,000 out et 6(4000 tlOws,
rate of £'2s per ticket, though some soli as lee, „
sea ; this salt took out of the rickets of tle
£l,ooo,ooo.annually. If they did net sell the
they contrived to have two-thirds in (h .q. handstip,;
which they raised the prices, thus levying gre„,
contributions upon the poorer classes, arid g.m.,(iir
secured the great priers in their owa hands.
years since illegal insurances were a greet
measures had been taken to suppress that part
evil of Lotteries; but, notwithstanding tine aceel
furnished shewed, that within the tun last
the numbers convicted of insulin., or, ia .
words of Mr. Hesse, of " doing businte,," atnneteei
to 116 in the first year, and filty.five in Ile. see
He stated two cases, the one of a man ntine'd
a principal Ofticer of Lease, who W i
Bow-street, and charged by two women and a reef
with taking illegal insurances, and me being ehle t 3
rebut the charge. was committed to ". prenalce eye
months, and this upon the oaths of two informers.
On his liberation, the Commissioners of Lucite rein.
stated him in his situation, and pa Li Hat up the ie.
rears of his salary. He stated ant.thcr case of 4
grocer in Carnaby.market, who was sent to gaol fur
late same period, on the oaths of similar persons. Tlte
names of these informers were BlibAra Taylor,
Amelia Wright and J. Hughes. The third case
which he would mention was, that of Martha Kira,
who kept a paetry-eook's shop in Crap's Inn-lace.
That person was taken before the .lagistrates
Bow-street, but there being only ore present, snisl-e,
not liking to appear again, absented herself from
home, and her son applied to Mr. Hesse, who rt.
tented to compromise the charge by allowing her to
pay down sea to the informers. The Honour32
Gentleman then observed upon the present rt rwc ci
drawing the Lotteries, which was calculated to kr:p
up the irritation in the public mind. The expense of
Commissiorers was very great. S ,me are ern Toyed
at salaries of .050 a year ; others had the namte rt.
ceived £2OO d year, lived in the ceentry, and did en.
thing. The whole expense to Government he one Jere.
mg this species of gambling was from 13 to .e 16,004
year. He trusted the cemmon sense and feeling of e:e
House would be against sop porting the Government
in keeping a public gambling table, winch eel:Atte!
the people, weakened their industry, and depte:et
their morals. There was this grand objection to this
gambling concern, that it tended to delude tne igno-
rant and plunder the poor. It was not deestel
against the rich and higher orders in the State; three
was no gambler of the higher classes that ever
thought of laying out his money in such a Inelish
speculation. But Ire was not quite sure that State
Lotteries did not encourage gambling. He contetehd
that Government had no right to t imper with the
follies or vices of the ignorant, nor to till their Trte,
sury by means so utterly destructive to 311 the poll.
ciples of sound morality and of social happiness. tie
read an extract from the Report of the Committees
Lotteries of 180 S, whkh generally condemns en
7 Lottery system ; and concluded with moving a lop.
lotion declaratory of the general evils of Lout-res.
and pledging the House to concur its the ahcslishra,lit
of that desci hieien of revenue.
Mr. BERNARD MO R LAND seconded she nes-
tints. The argument for Lotteries arising nut of we
necessities of the war, had been done away by the re-
turn of peace. All the same reasons which leaf Is:.

,rated with the Chancellor of the Exchtquer tr•r stire
pressing the Little.go Lotteries might, in his 'Tito,
to operate still more strongly for di:coil:inning the
Great State Lottery, as in a flinch greater direr
diffusing the spirit. of gambling, and inciting to voce
and crime. Lotteries were the ;mune of many Levis!!
penal enactments. He thought it most unjust in 10
Legislature to encourage the p.tssion for gaming, ar,.l
then make laws to punish those veto were Om; IA
away. It reminded him of the character it atintratf
Governments given by a Nobh. Political Writer. ss.io
says, that they resemble the 1)...vil in many respect.,
and particelarly in this, that he is both the rentrr
and tormentor—ht. mal:es the criminal, and ilea
punishes the crime. It produced inarite eel:unity
among the poor of the Metroptdis; a. it was is ev;.-
dence, that during the Lott?ry they doir'ed thtruelset
and their families the usual zscrtion of strbsitteNce.
that they might have wherewithal to ind;ige th.s
vice, and it appeared that clime prevailed most 1 f
all at that period. By the form in which Ln't'l
Acts are passed, we presont to the Thome, az a !.1.•.:,t
boon and source of profit to his Mirsty, that ...I. '::1
is to promote vice, and r,ccasiun zal.:nitty and tl, t; ,
among the poorer classes of his subjects. He ce .•
eluded by lamenting the loss of the late Ivlrmtrr I r
Bedford, who had been so zeelotts and el -iiticr,, :
opposing Lotteries; and hoped that tit: lion. :.... •-•
ber who had now taken up the subject would pa,
it unremittingly till•he was crowned with stieees
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQ;.:I:. '
thought, it the nature of Lotteries was such i4s :1:
Honourable Mover had reprelented, tt...re would
no necessity ! tr the ire.-sent mt.sti .n, t1,...y woeltl . ••• •
dwindle away cf tltttic•elvcs. Tile evil wcu;d evr,•l
its own cure with it. Ile was not at present rtiv,..::
of any method by which A60(,000 a 'ear cqule t:
raised with so little hurthen annually as ti:e ktPie.(l-1)
raised by Lotteries was. It was a volunta: y t.x 1.11
by the l'ulriic on tlevmselves. They b• ugh: s!itirrt :•-r.
tickets, for which they p (id a certain I.t:ce, in luT:i
of an advantage which 'they might derive from .0
disposing of their money.. It, however, the Ilia,oti: •
able Gentleman could advise any better sonice •;:
revenue, he (the Chincellor of the Excheqeel j w ti..l
most readily adopt it. The great argum. nt ...:4,:,5t
Lotteries, however, appeared to be a collateral I.:1;1
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a ridag out of them, namely, illegal .ineoranei. This
arFemcnt might perhaps have applied when . the
Lovelies continued drawing for 40 days together.?
but he thought that evil was almost entirely done
way by the present system of Lotteries ; and he
;as of opinion that so far from being productive of
born, the State Lottery, did much in keeping down
Pfirate Lotteries and ' Little Goes, which were al-
yrer, found to be mare numerous during the inter-
Ta's between the drawing of the State Lotteries
seen during the time they were drawing. With
es expenses of prosecutions for illegal.
fiect to the
Insurances, &c. wli ca had been alluded to by the
laoneurable Gentleman, if he would inquire, he
weald find a great majority of those prosecutions
sive ea cifences not originating in the State Lottery,
Let in ettempts to overturn, pr at least to undermine it.
.0:,, p,0,1a Honourable Gentleman then proceeded
is siereod the various prosecutions which had taken
I;.,ze en- efi.,eices against the law an this head. With
'`:to.ect to the price charged fur a Ticket by. the
Contractors to the public, he did not think it was
HALT than was necessary to give them a fair profit..,
Persons were left to their °V II option to purchase a
Ticket or not : if they bought who were rot able to
airool it, he could not but regret it. And no man
would feel greater pleasure than he should, if the
lower orders of the people would, in future, instead of
turchasing Shares in the Lottery, invest their money
ja Saving Ilaeks.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY thought that this was
a most serious question. In his opinion, every time
the House %oats! a Lottery Bill, they voted, that a
rosier et persons who, up to that time, had been
virtuous and honest, should become vicious, idle, and
&prayed. This was apparent from • the evidence
taken at different times, before the Committees of the
fiuose. The Honourable Gentleman then corn-
waled, in severe terms, on the Lottery puffs and
adeertisements which, from time to time, were pub-
lished and distributed amongst the people, and were
reticular-1y calculated to lead astray and deceive
the lower orders, and to tempt them into the com-
mission.of crimes which frequently terminated in their
ruin. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman
Oen ad ,e.rt.ed to the increase of crimes in the metro-
polis, in the covrse of the' last year. At the com-
mencement of his Majestyts reign there were not more
than coot hundred prosecutions for crime in one year,
row there were fourteen hundred ! This was a
proof of a most lamentable increase of crime, and he
could not divest his mind of a conviction that much
of this increase had its origin in the State Lottery.
Mr. WILBERFORCE strongly reprobated the
system of
.1-ailing money by Lotteries," which, he
contended, in their narure„tended to destroy all
morality, and to tempt the lower orders of the com-
munity to tbe commission of every vice.
Mr. LO.:2K HA RT was of the same opinion.
Mr. LI'S IiiNGTON appealed to the House
whether it sees consiyeet now to awes to the present
hesolutiens jrO abolishing • the Lottery atter having
rated the so:r, to he raised by is? Lotteries were not
now attenees: with such pernicious effects as in former
years. His R:glit Honourable Friend, he was sure,
would be li..ppy to abolish them, if any other means
rteld hoz ie.:noted out for raising the tnelley that they
yielded.
Ms. 12.TrTr.R.WGRTI-1 did not rise to offer any
new orgonsent against the system of the Lottery,
but to state. it:l ieaance of its per uicious effects sr liich
had come I,),:irr his owia noti::e. • lie had examined
some of 'I :els convicts in Newgate, and found that
the irregr; :rilies in which they had commenced that
conduct which led them to their fate, had been pro-
duced by the gambling temptations of the Lettcry.
Lord CO.'s-11-TON opposed the Resolutions.
Mr. W M. SMITH could see no danger of an en-
enuragenvent to gambling from foreign -lotteries. It
might be made penal to take orders. One of Os::
greatest evils of the war, he had always thought,
arose from the vestintrable sources whence the money
to carry :t on was drawn. Qoack medicines had barn
allowed for the taxes they y irides! —public.frouses
were encouraged for the same reason, and gambling
was patronized eri sOsi;lar grounds. Wheal any one
entered upon the sun ect or the>e abuses, arid at.
ttonoted to point out their bad effects on the health,
tin. triorAls, aiol maw,'" y of the people, it was always
thouAht a shilicent (I,.:fence to say that they yielded
a revenue. Ti;ey were allowed to be injurious; but
they produced money, and money must be had.
Mr. EA RCLAY also supported the motion.
Mr. LYTTELFON replied.
The House then divided—For the Motion, 21—
Against it, 47—Majority against the Motion, 26.
IRISH GRAND JUR[EB.
Upon the motion that the House resolve itself into.
a Committee on the Irish Grand Jury Bill, .
Sir F. FLOOD stated his former objections to the
measure. If the Bill passed into a law, he could call
n rotting else but a Legislative arraignment of the
Irish character and of Irish Juries.
The House went into the Committee on the Bill.
Lied CAS TLE REA GH wished it to be under-
stocd, that he was a sincere friend to the measure.—
In coeseuerice of what had passed on a former night
between himself and his Learned Friend (Mr. Horner)
i.e wished to introduce a clause into the Lill, involving
oso important points; providing, Fast, that the Judges
.srnuld, at their discretion, direct the information,
1).-4,7 previously sworn before a Magistrate, to be laid
L f'.1••• a Grarßi Jury ; and, secondly, that if before
:toe D-Anci Jury a le !mess should have sworn falsely,
i: s'aiuld he lawful for any one of the Jury to give
evidence upan the trial against that Witness. He
concluded with moving the clause. -
Mr. A.BERCROM a proposed an -alteration to
he made io the proviso just move.!, to tire effect that
1' ';,'t-I:ttetion should be granted by the Judges to
:: (7'110'.1 Tul y =less a fee mal application should be
i.o..iesis!:, enaoe, bt..tingth,ir seasons for such request.
I.lld CASTLER Li'iCsH would rather leave it
enerely at the discretion cf the Judees.
Mr. IVEBBER supported the amendment of the
Nefie Lerd.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was desirous that a pre-
eise ii!le of conduct should be 7 rescribed to the Judge,
teat the practice might be uniform at different
Assi7.es. It was ccrt,iolv 1f the utmost importance
to guard as much as possible ag:iitest perjui y.
1-od Cis6TLEREAGIi had no objection to
tn, edify his clause so as to meet the views of the
Inenslq nil the Bill, among whom he
.profeased him-
tele enc.
Mr. VONSONLY though that the clause of the

Nohle lord would defcat the Oyeit paitioge of the
Bill, to which he said he was s 6 Friendly. Leaving it
to the discretion of the Judge, was giving him a diffi-
cult task. The discretion ought 'rather to be given
to the Grand Jury, who might require the evidence
before the Magistrate to be communicated to them,
when they perceived any thing suspicious in the viva
wort testimony given before them.
Mr. PEEL observed, that if it were found on the
trial, that, in addition to the written evidence sent by
the Judge, witnesses were not examined by the Grand
Jury, it would be fit that all the proceedings should
be annulled, and a claw with that provision would
accomplish all practical purposes.
Mr. A. COURTENAY was in favour of the mo-
dified clause.

Colonel BARRY wished to know whether it was
now the law of England that a Bill should be re.'
jected on which the Grand Jury had not taken viva
vote testimony ? It it were, lie had no objection to the
principle of this Bill, because it would assimilate the
laws of England and Ireland. The oaths taken by
Grand Jurymen in the two countries ought to be the
same.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that the
Bill would be incomplete without the clause.
Sir J. STEWART and Mr. V. FITZGERALD supported
the clause.

Mr. HORNER thought it would be possible so to
word the, clause, that it might_be introdUced on the
third reading. The clause was then withdrawn for
that purpose ; and the report was ordered to be re.
ctivcd this day.—Adjourned.