Star.
London, England, 1827-02-21 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

On the report of the Committee of Supply on the
Army Estimates being brought up,
Mr. HUME said, that seeing the Chancellor of the
Exchequer in his place, he wished to ask him whether
the estimates as they stood, were meant to include all
the expenses of the expedition to Portugal, or whether
he intended to propose some addition at a firureoppor-1
tunity ? He thought it was time for the Right Hon.
Gentleman to be IJoking about for the ways and means
with which he was to pay the estimates.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said;
that it was impossible for him at this moment to say
whether he should propose to the House that the addi-
tional expenses incurred by the expedition to Portugal
should be defrayed by an addition to the army extra-
ordinaries, or by means of a separate vote. In whatever
shape it might be presented, he did not think it would
be so formidable as the Hon. Member seemed to think.
On the first Resolution being read,
Mr. WARI3UKTON wished to know whether all
the expense of the Portuguese expedition would be de-
frayed by this country, or any part by Portugal, and
if so, what past?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that this Government was nor to pay the expense of
the subsistence and the charges for barracks of the
troops in Portugal, which were to be defrayed by the
Government of that country.
The Resolution was then put, and carried.
9n the Resolution for a Grant to the Royal Military
Coeges,
Mr. HUME objected to the great expense incurred
in the education of young men for the army at the
various Military Colleges, which bore no proportion to
the number of cadets. In the last year only thirty-
eight cadets who had been educated at the Military
Colleges had entered the army, and he believed that
for some years there had not been more than ten young
men at Woolwich:
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought it was necessary that
Officers should be educated in such a manner as would
qualify them for entering the service. The Honourable
Member was mistaken in supposing that only thirty-
eight cadets had been educated ; for in time of peace
two hundred, and in war four hundred, were educated
at these Colleges.
Mr. MABERLY admitted that it was necessary our
Officers should be properly educated, but he thought
this ought to be at the charge of their friends. He had
no doubt that 10,0004 a year might be saved if the
=latter were referred to a Committee.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished, that not only this
branch, but the whole of the Estimates, should be re-
ferred to a Committee, with a view to public economy.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the measure suggested by
the Hon. Member had-been adopted in 1817, when the
scale of this part of our expenditure was fixed.
• Mr. D.W. HARVEY thought that it would be ser-
viceable to the country if such a Committee were to be
appointed every seven years.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN remonstrated against
the excessive expenditure on account of the military
establishments of the country.
Mr. LOMBE went over various items of the Army
Estimates, and complained generally of the want of ex-
planation which was visible in the accounts.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained. The Hon. Gentleman could not be aware
that the votes to which he had alluded had already
passed the House. Had the Hon. Member stated his
obj ctions to those votes as they we.e separately pro•
posed, he would have been answered at the time, for
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was quite sure
that there was no disinclination on the part of his Noble
Fiend (Lord Palmerston) to afford any iufornsation on
the subject.
Mr. LOMBE explained.
Lord HOTHAM defended. the Household Troops
from the observations of the Hon. Gent. (Mr. Lombe).
Mr. MONCK said, that the present vote was the
most objectionable which the present estimates con-
talked. The country, he contended, was burdened with
an army disproportioned to her means, and the
Member for Aberdeen was per (icily right in contending
that we were maintaining an unnecessary military estab-
lishment.—The vote was then passed.
On it being moved that the sum lei 56,2721. 17s. 6iJ.
be gtanted to his Majesty for the support of garrison,
at home and abroad,
!Ir. HUME rose to oppose the Resolution as he had
done on previous occasions. Before adverting, however,
to the grounds.on which he did object to it, he begged

to say he concurred most cordially with the suggeqion
,hich had been made for the appointment of a Com-
- to take the whole Estimates into consideration
they were brought before the House. He thought
better time than the present could not be chqsen
the Appointment of such a Committee. A Commie.
n had been sitting for four years, inqu;rina into dir-
est offices, and the whole of the information which
f been obtained under that Commission would be
highly useful. He objected to the resolution before
the House, because it opened the door to abuses, In a
great number of the garrisons,as they were called,
there was no resident Governor, and the whole system
presented a nest of sinecures. But it had been urged
in is defence that these offices were retained for
the purpose of rewarding meritorious Officers, and he
confessed that if it could be shewn that none but meris
torious Officers were appointed to them, he sho.ild be
'inclined to relax in his opposition t.• their continuance.
That, however, was not the case. He had made some
inquiries as to the use of some of the garrisons, and he
found that they a ere of none whatever. In going throegh
Berwick for instance, he had inquired into the state of
the garrison, and learned that there was not a single gun
mounted. The gene too were dismounted on a notable
occasion. Some time since when distress prevailed, the
Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department had
them so ept away lest the Radicals should seize upon
them, and direct them against the authorities. The
guns were dismounted, entirely done away with ; but
1 not so the Governor. Oh ! not he and his salary still
continued in existence.—(Laughter.) He did not dish
to interfere with what were termed vested rights;

he merely wished that when any vacancies occurred 111
the Garrison appointments that the country should re•
ceive the benefit of such vacancies by the sinecures

being discontinued. The Governor and Deputy Go.
vernor of Berwick had no duty to perform, although
they received considerable salaries ; and the same was
Ithe case with the Governors and Deputy Governors of
Blackness Castle, Chester, Dover, and other places.
But he was particularly desirous to know what services
the Governor of Dartmouth, A. H. Houldsworth, had
' performed, to merit his appointment. Perhaps the Noble
Lord (Palmerston) would state to the House whether
that Gentleman received the appointment for the votes
he had given while a Member of that House, or for ulna
other services. In short, the more he looked into the sob•
ject the more he was convinced that it wanted relorma-
tion. If there were meritorious Offi:ers who required
some consideration, why, not let pensions be moved for
in a regular way; he therefore should propose, as an
Amendiaent, that it was the opinion of the House that
the proposed grant was injurious, and that every sinecure
appointment should be discontinued as it became 'a.
cant; and that whenever an officer should be thought
worthy of extraordinary reward for his services, that
such reward should be given by means of a pension
granted by that House.
Sir ALEXANDER HOPE remarked, the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen had admitted, that if it could
be shewn that the different sinecure offices in the
Garrisons were given to meritorious Officers, he should
be inclined to relax his oppositioM But he had no sooner
made that admission, than he directed his remarks en-
tirely against sinecures, and did not even attempt to shew
that these appointments were not held by officers who had
served their country long and faithfully. The Hon. Gent.
had spoken of the Garrison of Berwick having no resident
Governor or Deputy Governor; but the House would
hardly think those appointments in improper hands when
they learned that the Governor had served fifty-tir
years, and that the Deputy Governor bad served' forty
nine years—(Hear, hear).—He had taken some trouble
to inquire into the subject, and he found that the offi-
cers attached as Governors or Deputy Governors to
39 garrisons, mustered among them no less than 1 988
y eats of service.—(Hear, bear).—He himself was Lieu-
tenant Governor of Chelsea, and he and his respected
Chief had between them 107 years of service—(Hear,
hear). Surely, then, there was no ground for the asser-
tion made by the Hon. Gentleman that those appoint-
ments were not given as a reward for services--(Hear'
It had been stated, that of all professions the army was,
worst piid,and it would be both ungenerous and unjust
deprive it of a source of distinction and emolument which
it had been allowed to enjoy for upward. of a century.
But there was another point worthy of consideration.
Colonels of regiments received no more now than they
did in the reign of Queen Anne; so that if those ap
pointments were taken away, they would labour under
very peculiar disadvantages—(Hear, hear).
Mr. MA BERLY advised his Hon. Friend ('
Hume) to withdraw his amendment—not that he
Moberly) did not approve of the principle upon which
it was made, but because he thought a Committee 11,.
the whole of the Estimates would be the most efficient
mode of correcting them if necessary.
Lord PALM ERSTON expressed his astonishment
the course pus sued by the Honourable Member '
Aberdeen, especially after the remarks which had r
viously fallen from that Honourable Gentleman.
question involved in the Amendment proposed
lint one of detail, but of principle, and it could be mon
conveniently argued in the House than in a Committee.
The garrison appointments might be divided into
classes—the one required active service, and the other
consisted of sinecures. To the former no objection h
been taken, and he, therefore, should turn his attenti
to the latter. He maintained, that it was necessary
Crown should have the power of rewarding meritoriou,
Officers, by giving them such appointments; and
maintained also that those appointments had been
perly distributed. In support of his assertion, he men-
tioned the names of General Tarlton, Lord Hill, Sir (7
Nugent, Lord Donoughmore, the Duke of Wellingo
and several other distinguished Military Officers
among those who had received appointments. The H,
Member for Aberdeen's objection did not in reality
pear to be so much to the expense as to the power
the Crown to give away the offices--(Hear). He seer
to wish to invest the power in that House, and to
to the Crown in place of it, nothing—unless the
of applying for a pension could be considered
return. He (Lord Palmerston) objected strong',

such a course, from its unconititut-ional nature.
acknowledged and felt the high importance of
I rause of Commons ; but when once it endeavour
to assume an undue power and to wrest author!
from the other blanches of the Legislature, it would
incalculable mischief. The House of Commons cou,
have no right to command the army—the Constar
had not invested it with any such power, and that
sideration alone was b u tic iritt to induce bim to of
the amendment—(hicar, hear.)
Mr. BARING approved highly of the suggestion
the appointment of a Committee. It appear.d to
ti.at one of two courses must be pursued, unless
country wa s to be cn irely overwhelmed. A Co a.mi

mist be appointed to go through the Estimates next
,-,liien, or else shottld similar Estimates to tho-ehe House
on the
;Ale be brought forward again next year, t
or return them on the hands of Ministers to be revised.
Great reductions mt be made. It was useless to say
teet such and such aus number of soldiers and ships were
coed; the country could not support the present
ole of expenditure, and next Session a most material
gtetation must take place, or it would be impossible
I, ley the supplies.
)11. HUM E said, that he wished not to inconvenience
the goes-, and therefore would withdraw his amend-
ret ; but before doing so he must remark, that all the
garrison appointments were not held by Milita. y Offi-
cers; for instance, the Earl of Malmesbury was Go-
woo of the Isle of Wight.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated
go the Governorship of the Isle of Wight never had
boss military appointment ; and that by the Act
of 1817, it would cease to exist on the death or
rtirement of the Nobleman who then held it.—
lie might also in justice to Lro d Malmesbury to state,
ott that Nobleman was appointed to it under peculiar
otonstances. His Lordship's father had rendered the
entry very eminent services in a diplomatic character,
lain consideration of those services had been elevated
telbeFeerage,-and Kati received a pension, a pant of
which was reversionary to his son and heir. The present
Lard conceded his right to the reversion of any portion
of ;be pension, and instead of it was appointed Governor
tithe Isle of Wight. The pension which he had given
se was more than the salary attached to the t ffice he
rho held—(Hear).
Alter a few words from Mr. J. SMITH, Mr. Hums
vithdrew his amendment, when Mr. RICKYORD said,
that as no explanation had been given as to what were
the services of Mr. Houldswoith, Governor of Dart-
mouth, he should move as an amendment, that the
rainy attached to the Governorship of Dartmouth
(17314 should be deducted from the Grant proposed.
strivers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Mouse di-
vided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment • 15
Against it 45
Majority —3O
It was consequently lost, and the original Reso-
lution adopted.
The other items in the Report were then agreed to
without further discussion.

GRANT TO THE DOKE Or CLARENCE.
Mr. HERRIES brought in a Bill to enable his Ma-
jesty to make further provision for their Royal High.
resses the Duke and Duchess of Clatence.

On it, being read a first time,
Mr. HUME said he was astonished to find such a
Bill smuggled into the House at so unsuitable a period.
Mr. HERUIES denied the justice of the charge
altogyther. In bringing in the Bill he had but obeyed
the directions of the House.—(Hear, hear.)—He had
always endeavoured to avoid being justly open to such
charges as that made by the Hon. Member for Aber
deco, which appeared to him most unwarrantable and
uncalled for—(Hear, hear, hear).
Mr. HUME apologited. He did not mean anything
personally offensive to the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
/ferries). On the contrary, he regarded his general
conduct of the public business which fell to his lot to
discharge to be the most honourable, but he objected to
such a Bill being brought in when there were not forty
Members present.

The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second lime on Thursday.

Sir ALEXANDER GRANT prejented some Papers respect-
ing the Foreign 015er, which were ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he should to-mot row move for a
copy of the Pension List for England, Ireland, and Scotland.
The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House
Assumed Tau Musuvas =roux lis.avax o'CLucc

BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS,
THU SAT.

Novscas or NIYtIOXI..- Mr. FOWILL Burrow; Appointment of
the Mauritius Slave Trade Committee—Mr. L. MA ICILY ; to
consider the Petition from the Borough of Northampton (pre-
sented 14th February), relating to the conduct of the Corporation
of that Borough—Sir J. Nawroar ; Select Committee on the Peti-
tion from the City of Waterford (presented 9th February), for the
Improvement of the Communication to the South and South West
of Ireland by Milford Haven.