Star.
London, England, 1829-03-14 00:00:00

, motion to incitairf if emirate lists had been made In
Oben erten. With retpect to telanj. the Cathohg
thererwere relieved ftom certain pen:llties in 1793 Opon
taking. the oath of eljegiance 40 'his Majesty. . 4. !be
su jeer penalties in general theievos no one wit
opposed to penal laws than he was—that is. in consi
dating them in contradis:in:tion to lams of disqualifi-
cation with which. until 14tely. they bed not been iden•
tilled y and so far lions wishing to enforce these laws
in Velem], he would himself have bioutht in a Bill to
set that Mator tight—(Neal). He yrnseld D 9 take the
Itheity ot reading, as to ecc.:rdence with this part oi
his motion. a part of his Majesty's SpeeLh to Pattie-
nsent on the first Jay of tile present Session (The No .le,
and Learnej L•ird here read 1114 pert of hit aLtiz,tlib,
sepee¢ which recommended Parharnent to take t
state of Iceland into c-n-ide at . and to devise wha:-
ever measnrea of relief could be sdnpted with rat ty to
the Protestent estaislislintent of the country ) This ie-
commeodation, the 14;thle LearneJ Lord was, of
opinion, pledged his .Majesty to nothing. 1, called fir
the advice of Pailiament, and stated a deter nti.tation to
preserve the church acid constitutistn inviolate; and he
;eitarsisti it with a feeling of gratitude.. If any 'bins
tuither had been said concerning his Majesty's doer-
ruination, i had not been very much in accordance
with Parliamentary usage—('year, heir)—and he would
answer tt by referring to what had bees stated by a
Bishop and en Archbishop, competent authorities--and
it was also his opinion—and he had possessed means of
knowledge open to lew—that it must be his Majesty's
deterusii atkris to preset ve the ionstitntion inviolate
(Hear). He diJ nut mean to discuss the merits if the
proposed Bills at present ; hr would only say that the
question would be, were they likely to preierve the in-
te..rity of the constitution ? He would. however, con-
ceiee himself roily of the basest ingratitude it be did
not declare his fixed impiessi.in that his Majesty never
.could hive cnnsented to their being submitted to Par-
!Witco; unless he bad been advised that they were in
perfect consistency with the security of the Protestant
stahlishment. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded
by read ng his motion to their Lordships.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN, with reference to 1,10; 1$
fallen front the N 06141041 .Learned Lord (Kidon) concerning the
wile in which 'Wapiti had been reteleed by his side of the House.
begged to ay that be must Italie been misunderstood. lie denied
having said that be was surprised the people. should presume to
PetitMn on the question. There was mow amoi their Lordabipi
more dimmed to attend Petitions than. be was, provided the; We!
tiiMed upon matters which they were able.to comprehend.
The Karl of 6 ILION thought the Noble tarquis bad used the
word'• presume."
The Marquis of LASSDOWN would appeal tn their Lordasilni
da to the expressions be had used. He Mimi that the Nolge
and Learned Lord way incapable of wilfully miarepresentine him;
but he repeated that be bad Dever used the phr4ae, and that nothiaS
could+e farther from his feeling.
Tae Earl of KLDON referred to their Lordthips 'whether the
word bads*, been osedi with respect to the creation of the diafraa-.
chisement of the 10s. freeholders.

The LORD CHANCELLOR did not rise for the
purpose of opposing the motion of his N ,hie and
Learned Frietr-d, for he was desirous, and the Govern-
ment were alsii desitous, that every possible intorma-
lion should be given that Wee open the measures
fore both Houses of Parliament. He would not have
risen only for one or twoobseivations that had f .11en
ticias hiss Noble and Learned Friend. He (Loyd Elston)
hani said that upon pruenting petitions, or stoking trio•
Lions. be would not enter into any discussion of the
Measures, yet with an address and dexterity peculiar to
hittiself,'he had taken every opportunity of glancing at
Item, and reprobating them. On a former night !Kind
pronounced them detestable, and he had now intimated
that they were inconsistent with the Protestant esta-
blishments of the country. At present he would !not
rrister upon the refutation of these opiniana; but he
pledged himself to do sn whenever the measures came
under the regular consideration of the House; and to
satisfy their Lordships that in the points referred to
by his Not* and Learned Etiend they were in no re-
spect at variance with the Protestant frame of the coon-
try. Hs Noble and L-arne.l Friend had referted in
the same way to a weasure that had passed both
Houses, and received the Royal assent. He had pro-
' nounced it inefficient ; but was it not extraordinary that
his Noble and Learned Friend, with his talents and
xperience, and, lie might add, his zeal to pitdown
,the C.tholic Assnci4tion, never, in the discusiion of
, nseasure. pointed out any of its defects, or even
!condescended to appear in his place when it passed
through a Committee of their Lordships' House?—
' Another tooie bad been alluded to by his Noble and
Pigged Ft tend. He had thrown out a kind of insinua-
tion against the Ca holies of Ireland, as if they had
'been unwilling to subscribe to an oath pledging them-
selves to adhere to the Protestant succession. In 18,18
the word ad family" was introduced into the oath for
.English Catholics, without reference to the Protestant
succession; and, in 1791. the alteration had been made
'calling on them to swear in the same terms as in that
taken by the English Protestants. They had not ob-
jectedl to take that oath. He Mould now call their Lord-
ships attention to Ireland. The last oath for the Irish
Catholics was almost enntemporaneous with the intro-
duction of the word" lam ly"into the oath for the Eng-
lish Catholics. The former one was framed in 1793;
and, if it had been totally dissimilar, what was there to
-how that they would not then have adopted it? He
would, wow advert to whist had bappened since 1793, in
.rower to the in-inuatioa of his Noble and Learned
' Friend, and he tek called on to say, on behalf tithe
.
siathotics of I eland, diat there was, no t'linsgatihn for
that insinuotion. In 1813 the Bill was brought in con•
taming the clause referred ts. Ile would ask how that
oath was framed? It was act framed solely by thr Hon.
Member who brought in the Biel, but in conjunction
49d in communication with the Catholics of Ireland
In 184 and in 1825 Oaks were brought in-containingl
the same terms, end be never had heard that the Ca-
tholics were unprepared to take such an oath.
would net have trespasrpd upon then Lordships atten:'
'eons but. that the ohm entitles of his Noble arid Learned!
Friend were meant, though not. directly, to make their
way to the country, and to impress their 14 rdships with
the 'notion that the Catholics of Ireland were averse. to
the tpccilksiffu 91 Protestents to the ;town of this, teal.
Load REDESDALE &soused his satisfactlois
being told by the Noltie and Learned lord, that the
Bpirhin,Catholicsrif kelend VV.! ready to take the oath
to support the Protestant succession. Whether thet was
the ease or not, ha did act know; bat be knew, that
not long ago. it was not the ease. Advettins to the
petitinvns had been preessted to their Lordships,.
eperiewil, thitt the. nlAnna, which thore petitions
[l44.iianit titatockbe4 turptired 'him. He could assure
their Lordships that the language in which therm pr.ti-
tyins had been Ipoien cf- in that House, had cte:ted
great, alum in thkcqupqy. Boejt Ia tuage.waslisult
jog to viA Wing cedes of she community. F chis.ofiia
part, he doubted exceedingly it peace sand good order
'would' be restored in Ireland by the Bills which were
about to be ptoposed. They Irina& never be retired
'one* the Gasernment.iit Ireland- wesbetter administered
than it halbert' sines the first settlementof the Engl. h
in that. Likud—they would. never be restored until' the
law was trndeted predominant in that country. His

. .
-. • . . , - . . • - • •
Lt.cosNlNesdale's) opinion on the IEII for iuppr *44 ate.
etholic Associating Ws repted44 on their loirliPb,
.. teals. That Bill appeared ta him to two 0 chaT
;aver which his respect or that ay pd fur the o hef.ficasse
pi Pfliament would pat allow hills to di:. jilts; illyiwas
convinced that if the Government of Irelaod had done
the+ chity. the C ‘tholic -A
ssociati; in night have Dern gup-
pies ed long lon, by the operati •n 4.1 the Common L I 4.•
Lord PLUNEETT, alter adveriog to what had
fallen from LOrd Eldon as to his Majesty's determiaa.l
tion i•ci thy question, rs (cried to Lord nerlmslale's state
nie.t, that Government had not done its duty in pot-
ting down the C .thole Ass•iciation. He denied Jr t
the • laws. of the land • ere not Wily *damnable:44l in
Ireland, and saint that if there oe. aoy sice in the ad-
minis; ra ion of thy laws ill that counts y. it s sisied in th
lasts themselsg-. He miter:des that such observatuns
qs had been suede by the Noble and Learned Lorrt(Re.
desdale) were likely to do great mischief in Ireland.
He thook,ht Viet the summary power gibes' to the Est
entice for a shoat time was c •ICPI4;CJ to be most effect.ve.
The Nible and knitted Loid had said that the A .;;.sta
von {mild have be. a put Joao by a p incipte in the cow-
mon law, but as a lawyer he could not ape, with tl e
Nalie and Learned Lord. Ile would mike an obhea-
cation or two upon the particular mottos' befote •hem.
He tivught that it had not been brought V., ward with
the frankness be expected from its Noble and Learned
Mover. He thooght that observ.• Non; had been thsowit
out exceedingly unfair east iajotion; to the Cathy.
lies, He wouht seta to the various Acts respecting
the oaths to be taken by the Catholics of Ireland,
and to an Act, the 18th George 111. introduced, not
by advocates of the Roma* Catholics, but by two
most distinguished persona of the opposite side: After
this series of enactments cape the Act of 1793,
the Act with reference to the English Catholics having
previ• usly passed in 1791, which Act was indeed one
of great liberality, and of greater justice. Now, it
should be recollected that the Roman Catholics had, a
short time previous to the year 1793, mode attain decla-
rations disallowing certain Wiwi points in their alleged
belief ; and it was subsequently proposed that these de-
clarations should be embodied in an oath. But Noble
Lords sir uld be SWIM that the Act of 1793 did not
introduce the oath which thus Act included ; it merely
said that those who took the oaths of tl • 13th and

14th George HI should he entitled to certain bene-
fits. Wh. n the Bill of 1813 was 1011'011OCed to
Parliament it was greatly cavilled et by the agitators
of Ireland, who declared eh It they considered it a mea-
sure of infliction rather than of relief ; but, although the
riath contained in it was precis4y the aeon es the( *1
the Act o t 1793, no objection was then made to this
oath. In the Rill of 1821 the oath of 17911 was net in
terms intredoced, because by that Bill it was proposed to
have an oath common to both Protesersots and
or with a slight vatiation. The oath of 1793
thesefore have beim nnoecessaly; but the plan was
subsespently, altered, and then:tin of 1113 end 1799 re-
sorted to. and the. thrill' I passed thellouse of Commons.
fhere w as, then, no evidence of any Catholic conspitacy
against the Protestant succession in. 1825.. in 1881, or in
1,1813; but the Noble sad Learned Loris bad gone back
for proofs of such conspiracy to the year 1773, and the
saws io tradition had thus hero 'abed up in order to
!show some ground I,r imputing disloyalty to theßomas
Catholics, who, he would say, were as loyal a class of
(his Majesty's ;objects es the Noble Lord who threw
out soca insinuatitors—against which was the evidence
of the oaths, the acts, and the characters of tbo it Roman
Catholics. The acts alluded to by the Noble god
Learned Lord had never been acted upon except for some
•specia,l purpose. Certainly every Irish Priest bad taken
the oath, because, until he bad so doe., be could
not be relieved from certain penalties be bad incurred;
r and every Roman Catholic who was appointed to any
official situation took it also, because, until he bed done
so, he could not hold tech office. This was_ the caw its
Ireland, and doubtle.; in England also. The Roman
ICatholics, however, had only taken those oaths "bets it
became necessary so to do; and he contends(' that a
voluntary and ungecessary applicatino to take them
would hate subjected the applicant's loyalty to mete
suspicion. The N ble and Learned Lord then sieved,
." That. in addition to the Returns moved, for by
the Ni.ble and Learned Earl (Eldon) there be laid
before the House an account of the number of Pro
testants of the Church of England, and of Protestant
Dis-en•ers, who have taken the oaths of allegiance. su-
:premacy, and abjuration in Great liroain, since the yeas
1813. under the Act of el e Ist Ge irge I. chap. IS, to.
gether with returns of all Protestant Disseates. whb
have taken the oaths of allegiance, supremacy, and
abjuration. in Deland since the year 1n13.'
The Lill r f ELDON, in reply, said th .t so far from
'feeling any disinclination to the motion of the Noble
and Learned Lord, be should feel happy to second it.
He thought, however, that the Noble and Learned Lord
had very much mistaken the nature and object of the
motion which, be had submitted to their Lordships
The Noble Lord had indeed -quite misconceived the
views upon which the information was required. Their
Lochhips had heat d and knew ;hilt it wet, the amen •
tion of his Majesty's Government to admit the CA.'
tb(giCS to political power, and that in doing so they
.wets to take from them tee tiin securities for the main-
tenance of the inC4olability of the Pioteseant Establish-
ments. If, tweeter, they were to have man itiet.at all,
it was the object of Pailkonent tos,take oars that those
secutities .shoishi be as effectual as possible. He denied
that be bad even contemplated, as the Noble Lord
seemed to imaeine, the failure et the. Protestant issue
of the Home of Ucenswic k ; on the contrary, he pt dyed
most sincerely and fervently for vie continuance if that
succession, and that GOD might give them length of
:days in the land over which, they ruled in honour. kle
did out, however, think that the Noble Lord bad applied
himself to the purpose ot the motion when he went into
-a detail of the proceedings previous 'to the year 179$
'What was it to those who *Oad joifoerbAlio, vrou-the
• subject of the taking of their oaths that such and such
things had taken place. pervious to that year ? He cone
fessed himself, indeed, unable to comptebeed the bearing
of soole of the Noble Lord'aohsertattons needle 4411*
understand what the Noble Lord on theWooksek meant
by imputing to him an attempt to inherence their Lord
.ships by insinuation--(Hear). He would tell that Noble
;Lord that he could not continue to cell that man tailed
Imp°, inspired co him. 'itch an attempt; and when the
Nubia lewd talked of insinuatioaa, he would remind
him that he (Lird Eldon) had been, at least, consistent
to his. political course with reference to the questioe
Iwhich. now agitated the comas y. The:Noble Lord then
.proceeded to contend, in reply: to another observation of
the Noble Lord on the Wookaek, that the Act for dis-
solving theAssociavon was totalie unnecessary. It would
.be in: the secollection.of their Lordship& although the
Noble Llict charged him with remaining silent, that by
lhadiotweryed, mote than once, whets the subject was
Amite! consiretatioo,lbat: the law in Ireland Must he
y4er,l dlOkeakiToo.lhe..-1411401. 4t the. power'
pronietht at, conmsnale.t for. the_ nppressios each
'Assiaciationic wets qn• e. ffe. lent w k.hoot theaasi.tanee
01 the Legislatute. He had said more than once, that :b

,N ,bleat J Lea:neater., (I. • rallikett) mu.t have !wen
unable to procure evidebce tit: 'chums! ani tre
able proceedings of the Association. or the common law
would have been found quite sufficient for the poni-h.
me..t of the offenders. The law Eng I a :Id had hven lotted
sufficient for putting down the affiliated §ocieties
thr. atened a alerting at• Vol fr, and he had mote that
mice vip e-sed his burpri.e !Set the law which could he
!endefe4.l y i rifectusl su England was wholly, inappl;..
cable to I eland. After some further observations upon
•he su ject or the misapprehensios of his meaning which
he atuibuted to the Noble and Leaned Lnrd (Lord
I);unkett) the Noble E.tl concluded by declaring, that
he did suit feel him elf vt leJ upnn to answer the bitter.
ranuns of the N tble Lod on the Woolsack when be was
told by. 'ls .t Noble Lord that he (Lord Eldon) evaded
the es. ezptession of his opinion., And attempted ta
contrey his hostility by insinsatioaa—(Heal). To the Ai.
tervatsons of that Noble Lard be would ma coude.cead
to eerily, but he would call upon him to make his actii;
Si ions cop.isteet with the character which he had held
in that House for the space of ;wally fifty years.

The p‘ike of WELLINGTON said he was indulei
to offer a few tem; ks piincipaly with a view of pre.:
sailing upon both hit Noble Friends to withdraw thole
Res°Minns. If instead of these. Resolutions an Aet of
lodemeity were introduced, Pr relieving Catholics who
had omitted to take an oath, foe the not taking of which
no blame could attach, every reason ibis object which
Noble Weds could esquire would be obtained. The
oath was not one that it was likely every Rom ri:Catholw
would be called upon to take; but (as we witernood
the Noble Duke) it was an oat i like that introdtketi
into a Hill sow in progress through another House;
which persons called upon to fill p distillr offices may
be required to take; but it was not one that eves), Ru-
men Catholic was called upon to take; so that the oasis.
:ion to qualify according to the Act could not be the
cause of any great blame, or for which there could be
any strong gtoend for refining to indemnify for the
amission of ft. I cannot forbear from availing myself,
contiuutd the Noble Duke, of tliis opportunity to alai-
modest' upon the inconvenienee that arises from the
trrquent allusion that is mid* to a Bill now in another
place. It would be far more convenient to delay these
and any similar remarks upon the measure until (should
the present Bill pass through another place) it came as
a matured measure, fairly submitted 'to the consider.=
twat of your Lordships. The discuss; nt upon this ques-
tion has been anticipated here, no; quite regularay oe
fairly, by descsibing it as an attempt to introduce arbf:
trary power—as an attempt to subvert the Con Alaimo
—to violate the Coronation Oath—and under mine the
Established Religion of the country. This has been
conveyed partly by insinuatien, arid in part k has been
asserted. But, whether conveyed by insinuation or
assertion. 'Pow me to say (whet 1 am prepared to
prove) that it is sy .(900404. Mean* like, I would
suggest that it would be better that these topics
Amid be left out of discussion until the subject to which
such constant reference it made comes regularly trader
your Lordittipt' notice. Until the question wuich wilt
be 10104 ht logetesd pursuant to the gracious teem..
neisdenon from the Throne shall be submitted fairly to
the House, such assertions as i have adverted to should
be laid aside. With respect to the law for the Suppres-
sion of the Association, that had been passed in 1825,
it was true:tsat that Act was not effective, and it was
found necesseey to amend the Act in this Session of
Partition& I would here remind my Noble Fated
(Lord Eldon), who now complains that the Bill of
1825 was ineffeetuaL and maintains that the Common
Law was sufficient for the suppression of the Asso-
ciation, to consider when the Bill of 1825 wiawimadee
consideration—in that year, that the first paragrtpts of
a very able dispatch from the Lord Lieutenant'avlre--
land was. that there was nothing in the forns,lostho-
tion, or proceedings of the Association which the cons,
mon law could interfere with; and my Noble Friend
(Lord Eldon) was a party to the Bill for putting down
the Association in that year. If the common law was
then sufficient, in the opinion of my Noble Friend, tv
put down the Associatioo, wherefore was he a party to
the concocti aof an additional measure to enfcrce the
suppression of it?—(Loud cries of hear). It wasbeeause
the OOMMon lane, even sub the anistance of the Acts t
1825. was insuffieieat is 'oppress the Association, that
recourse was obliged to be had this `es ion of Parliainest
for the purpcke of investing she Lord Liewenant of Ins.
,land with estiaordinary powers to put down rho Asss.
ciation—(Hear, bear). The Noble Lord bad said that
there was sufficient power in the country to enable the'
Officers of the Crown to put down the Association.—
'Tis true there was ample military power in the country
to pot it down. No doubt thece was—bat safely arli.
tart' power is not the description of force which oats
would desire to see put in operation for the 'oppression
!ot'such an Association —(Loud cheers)—bst that power
and authority which belongs to the law, and which May
be carried into execution by ordinary means—(Cheet4.
The Noble Duke conchs:4oJ by recommending his
Noble Fs iends to withdraw their Resolutions, and sug-
gested as the best substitute that could be introduced
for them, a Bill to indessaify all perions who suffer
under any divinalt6cations from having °asked to take
the oaths prescribed by the A.ts of 1791 and 1793.
The Earl of ELDON said, that as the Noble Duke.
•had "erred to a Itht had taken place during the period
that he was in his Majesty'. Councils, be would recall
the memory of the Nubo Duke towhat was hisopinios
at the period to which the Noble Duke-referred. What
he bad said was, that the Act of 1825 would be soli.
fiery to the reinforcement of the Common Law ; but
that without the Common Law, that Act of itself would
be ineffectirce. tie would further recall the attention
:of the Noble Duke to what be had said respecting the
,Common Law. He had maintained that the Common
Law was istStient to teach the conduct of individuals
and, by: reaching the conduct of individuals, the proceed.
toga of the Association would have bees impeded, end
'thereby the Association itself effectually Suppressed.
He thought that opportunities for proceeding against
individuals foe their conduct bad been permitted to
escape; and so strongly was be impressed with this
opinion, that when the propriety of a prosecution was
intended, in consequence of an attack upon a late la-
mented Royal Pet sooage, be (Lord Eldon)was adverse
to such a prosecution, from an unwillingness, after the
many other opportunities for prosecutions that had bar
neglected, t r risk the possible failure of a ptosecatioain
that particular case, and thereby disturb the last mos
.rents of that Royal Personage., (We believe the Noble/
Lord *dewed• to a speech of Mi. Strict animadvertiog
spon his lets &nal Highness the Duke of York.) MI
Noble Earl concluded. by staring that be felt himself
.411ed,upon, its justification of his own honour and cons
oncney, to mention this circumstance.
The Noble Bast and Lord Posner: epee withdrew
Ithessawa
Iteentudna and Amendment, after which the House ad' ss
. sus vu Nuts rionca.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Lord. Boxjinx' reek Ws oath sod. his NM se his re 'Wads
or Bak.

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Mr. Alderman WOOD' brought in the &MAIM Market Bit
'Ma wall read a first tittle. Ms same H..ornbk Wok/