Star.
London, England, 1828-06-24 00:00:00

which they must merit if rho measure in question were&
mis,,pfdirastitus.dihriMblicfiLasds, e,11..a. vitiation of the
principles of theConstitation—ror theAne.ati.ntlanan
has not_ggiegJol4!..,..ll.l2s„4l. 04 it W2llll violitien of
a tatute. --The Chotiil-74147;jelk:Sall
sated his case. Nose, before I give my reasons for
differing from the Hon. Geritlem conceiveit better
10 state my case too from documents, and my recollec-
tion of the facts. But before I oroceed tos that, I wish

to remove an erroneous impreastou on the House_ as to
the date of the transaction, into which the House and
the Honourable Member have been misled by a clerical

error in the official document on which the issue was
made. If the House wish to hear the facts, "hope they
will not proceed to a division without listening to an
explanation of a clerical error. Sir, there is an error; in

the document to which I alluded, it is stated, that the
money was issued on the 10th of March, while the Trea-
:ury warrant is dated only the 30th. But the tact is, that
the money was not, and could not be paid before the war-
rant was signed by the Lords of the Ti easury ; on the con-
tra, y, it was paid after, namely, on the sth April, though
set forth in a different manner through mistake in this
document. Now the facts of the case are these—in the

year 1825, Lord Goderich being then Chancellor of the,
Exchequer, brought in a Bill for appropriating a grant
of money to the erection of certain public buildings. In
the course of the proceeding it wa% found that the sum
wanted would be about '250,0001. The public funds,
. most proper for this purpose appeared to be those
ari,ing from the sale of Crown lands. Some time alter
the erection of these edifices began, it was discovered

that the funds in hand were not iolficient.and for these

reasons, that the expenses of certain measures for im-
proving and beautifying the Metropolis were. made
chargeable on this fund—and the charges. on the fund,
being unexpected. were the more heavy. Thus the
Revenue arising from the sale of the Crown lands was
not sufficient for to complete the erection of Bucking-
ham Palace. About this time it was.announced to Mb

Treasury that the commissioners for the adjusunentot.
the claims against France bad closed their labours, and,.
having paid all they were called on to award, had a
surplus remaining. It then became a question with
the Treasury to determine what was to be done.with the
surplus; and in the decision of this question, neither
Mr. Canningb•who as Foreign Seeretary_hail the duty
of announcing the fact to the Treasury„por the Lords
of the Treasury, proceeded lightly, for they. applied to
the King's Advocate for his opinion, Who reported that
the purposes of the Act having been accompfithecti the
Treasury possessed a discretionary power of. disposing
of the overplus. After this the meeting took, place
which has been alluded to, in which meeting the Tre47.,
sury decided, in concurrence with the Secretary -of
State (for according to • the provisions •of - the .Act
nothing could be• done without the concture,ce of thei
;two Secretaries.) In this meeting it was decided, futt!
that a certain portion of the surplus should Ise to
served to discharge certain claims_which, though inad-
missible under the letterof the law, were considered•
• such as in abstract justice ought to be satii.fiest-Ao - .:.
Mate was then made that; by pitting !aide 2p0,00u1. tot
that purpose,3oo,oool.wonld remain at thedisposalpf the
Treasury. This was considered enough, and Are -th i •
'enough, for- the liquidation of the remaining cleitnia
The 300,0001. would be at the disposal of the Treaguryiti
for public purposes. Thusrby the,Aot 4..Pipheempic
the Treasury being authorised to deal-with this
.:Trphts.,
all pansies concurred in the appriierfaiiedof
_thent,.entt,
that they did so concur each individoll bats shikithownl
by sabsequenz acts of his. Mr. Canning;Ailluly't •
and Lord Liverpool and-Lord Goderich,tymerisures•
iof theirs, showed that , they cesticarreda:'BYhey 4:.,pit.:,
right to employ this tam in the, ritnuer. ,ther.dief nod
were applying it to a just and, propel: abjeet...„l cast
they were not warranted in agplying it to:iinr purpose
bat to purposes for the geed Of the pubtiece They Rona,
aidered they wore authorised by the Aet4olo apply is,
They did so apply it. batin a tempowiryananiter.i.law,l.
contend that they never alienated it-r-rtbey metely used,it
conditioually for a certain public
.purpose, unittfriri
camstances which left to them ;thelroder Of resteririt
that sum if ever it should appaiirlifisperto Parliament
to.call for it, and for oi/they-bad the aothorityofraelia-.
meet to apply it to * publie perpose, Tho.flon,filove.:9l.
the* Resclutiona ha: compared this net with. forme,
Measures, ta which, as precedents, it has
..no WO of
Illetiess ; for if Ai were asked •in :heir a panident- in
favour of this measure, I could- not fincl'any so fairotie-
abk, though of a contrary nature,•tbaoshatokthell • .
Member ;• for that whiskbe has .quotediachatacterised
by this distinct mark,. t.. bat. it catitaittse Oicgs.,of illt
safity, a charge which b
.has not ventured' to. maks;
on the present measure. . In the case on Which thil
measure of 1811 was founded, a restriction hulk.
placed by. Parliament .on. nppropsiatioe.ofribc:snii,
to a purpose not authorised7hyslinliffent.;..whPreasa
in the present case, was not the . sum voted .by Parr
liament for a particular purpose?-=(Cheers).- -Thtt4
Sir, I am right, and if Honourable Gentle:nen-won't*.
remember the constitution of this .House, tlier.wonisl
see that I am, In all cases of supply the, .Parliatioy,
restricts the operations of the Government—lapt in a
ease of ways and means, the funds are left to the Mil%
wry for 'discretionary application to aoy public purpose..
As to the conduct of Sir C. SeymouMbat is not at-elk
applicable to the. present case, for he lent money to the
army beyond the amount granted by Parlirunent,
and he feted illegally in .00 doing; but as for the.
SUM destined for the erection of Buckingham Palace,
no restriction bad been placed on it by Parliament.
Parliament having bad no estimate of the-total expenses
before it, could not, and did not fix the sum of expendi-
ture on that building at any definite sum; and thus the
Tteasary was left to supply the deficiencies indefinitely
out of the proceeds of the lands of the Crown ; and
in appropriating the surplus to that object, they but an.
tieipated the revenue derivable from • the sale of-those
lands. They did not expend it on any purpose other
than a public one.they did sot misapply, they merely
anticipated the increasing of the fundi -which was being
raised by the authority of an Act cf. Parliament, and
which ultimately was to be devoted to this purpose.—
The Parliament had authorised Government, in 1826,
to raise a loan for the building offhickingbainPalace;on
the sale of leases of the buildings on the site of Carlton
Palace, and by another Ace of 1827.. on ,the sale of
lands in Ireland, land the appropriation of the surplus
to the erection of Buckingham Palace wai but'an an-
ticipation of these funds. But it -may be ailed, why
not rather raise 'money on these lands thaw so to ap-
'propriate this surplus? For this reasona.that the mode
adopted was the cheaper and more economical method
....as in borrowing•money it would have been necessary
to pay a larger interest than was necessary in'the latter
proceeding'; but then I may be Met With, Why penetrate
to Parliament to ark permission * to appropriate it?
To this 1 answer, it was not necessary, because they
'need not ask .Parliament to place at their disposal sums
'which were already at their dispusaL by Aet of F.aslia.
meat. Parliament haniyig already.allowed them.tosaism
a loan on the sale of land in Ireland, -anal leases. of
Carlton Palace; and baring thus placed these-loods.at.
''. disposal of darTssasaryt wash necessary tbatithase

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-466,,.1•11111MIMIirMni

11Fi

t!•311

persons who bate been so !wavily accused to-night.
.Should come and ask Pollan/rent to grant them over
again that prawn' eihOthey,alteadr possessdf by the
authority, of those Acts ..if Pt liatnent? I said at the'
.'cinteetthat I tChe with .snirie.'-degree .of pain to address
the Iron,e on this subject, and•the reason was that it
happened tit me in tny humble lot to be a parry in the
transactions to which I allude, though in too horrible a..
situation to Like any important share in the affair, or to
pAiticipate in the responsibility consiquenkopon it.—
The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to state,,,
.that in the situation which he *(llr.,,Hetrie4) held Olen
these transactions were going:ter-ward, it would be pre.
snmption in him to suppose that, any part of thc blame,
lit blame there was, could have.tallen on him. If he had
then been in a situation to have advised.the Crown, he
had no hesitation rn saying that he would have concurred
with Mr. Canning, Lord Liverpool, and Lard Goderich.
He would not have shrunk from stating as his opinion,
that the application of this money to the purposes for
which it was applied, was.not unconstitutional, but that
Government, in so applying the money, had acted in
strict conformity with the law, .aud had only applied
'the money to purposes for which Parliament authorised
it to be expended. He did not consider that the appli-
cation of this money was any ground for the censure of
the House. In all the cases that had been gutted,

where Paliament had censured. the appropriation of

money, the principle on which. the appropriation was
censured had been, that the application bad not been,
for the public service, and not for the purpose for which
it was intended to he applied by Parliament. No cen-
sure was ever thrown on a Government which acted
with the double authority from Parliament to use
the money and to apply it to a particular purpose. He
(Mr. Herries) denied the justice of the inference made
by. the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. M. A. Taylor),
that the Government bad appropriated a part of this
money to the relief of .the distressed manufacturers, in
order to "gild the pill." The Government had deter-
Alined, to interfere for the relief.of the distressed mann.;
tacturers. Parliament was not sitting at the time—this
money .wan in the care of the Treasury, applicable to.
-Pulslic purposes, and they did not think it necessary to
Agild.a.pill" when they applied this money to the re-
lief of distress,which had increased to a most lamentable
extent... The observations, of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
M, A. Taylor) conveyed• a strong imputation, against
the Government... it charged them .with subterfuge,
'unfairness, and trickery.. Could Geatlemen of so much
honour have been guilty, of such meanness?—(Cheers )
Could they . have persuaded the, honourable Member
tut' Micihttrit (Mr. John, Smith) to. have entered into
such,lplan?..rr(Hear, front the Opposition•Benches.)—
He 44 not know. is hat that cheer meant, Out he thought
'Unclog Honourable-Member to whom he • referred
11,001400 t bavelconcurred. ap:any. thing so mean and
, ,
rpawoethy. The application .of this money had been a
' matterof grave aod serious deliberation. There were
gre• a,:diffc„, ulties in the transaction,hut thoie difficulties
weremitioidered, and the government evinced a dispo-
. sit.i.n.to avert the calamities, whichavere,jospeading. .
' Par. trt,en. TAYLOR•tviatd,garsleu, ~ he had not Made the
' rebaree against the Govertiolesd Witich tholtight Hon. Gentleman
imputed robin.. - -. ,
- • - • • ~... • • •
Mr: BERRIES ;ethitinirtit=lbe 'Hon. Gentleman
'bad died Vie tvordi to utild the pill," and nothing but
meatiness could he itiferredlrom tech a charge. The
Hoiri Gentlerninht'd coMplaitsed that Parliament had
been tint in I)6s:es-bloat of doCuments for •whith he had.
~ t-fired, but was it not right thlttrailiansent should
Pik in possession .4.4 the dottitsientt?:—(Hear).—A
rabctinsenti had beenlaid beftirelbelfinAnee-Cons.
'avirteiititthhad. got mins& *breed, 'and it' *as rigta that:
larlaiMent sibtald'be in possession of the whole:-' Ht:
iMiAiiiries.)- hisilitated.the.tase truly; and 'exactly es-
.4e had viituelied, it, end Is die . dOesimentsterdist the
Wilier' proved'it.• ' Ht idlWays-ptesented himself •re-'
liictnittli • berovn. *eV.; Wirs'se.. tlnd would }rive • it to
'iitheri to disCula the Cisistitutional poinr..• Helves suds-
fied the•whole transtittioi on the part of
was:strictly Olivet ; that the execution of ..thepower
•eked in t4CGoteiliMeat was striCifY, cilifict; and, that
,theGOirernment throughout the whole tragisaction had
aitedAtmessly, uprightly, and legally. ' He .wat theie-
foielitepared toSive a direct negeti're to
,the motion
mide,hy the• Hon. *Gentleman. ' .• * ' • _; .
• •
.•
,
MroBA RING said tbst Ads subject IN& eupgoi*heattantion
,of the Roam, Comniinee, and not seeing the -Chakman of that
Committee in his place, be (Mr. 33.).tbsinght it necessary that
some person should state the: real facts; for though they had.
bean sowed by his :Mien. Friend,-.the Member for Durbans, they
0
were se changed and turned about by the Right Hon.. Gentleman
• (Mr. Herries) that he doubted whether the House was heposses- 1
elistsfof them. It was quite impossible teeny that it was not the
' duty. of the House to take some notice of this transaction. , Is
was usual., when opposing such motions, to propose some modi.
;fled proposition; but the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) put
the <Lucinda on a direct negative, and called on the House to
• say that where se- strong and clear a case had been made out, no
Mince-et/sawyer should be taken of it—(Hear). He was the more
serprhell that. the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herries) should
hive put it on these grounds, when he recollected that the Right
}fon. Gentleman, when in the Finance Committee, had admitted
that the transaction was irregular.. He (Mr. Baring) could not
,stseak.positively as to what had fallen from the Chancellor of the
•Reciseetww: in the Committee, but the Master of the Mint had
certainly admitted that the transaction was irregular, and that he
Wished. is bad been otherwise.
Mr; -HERR:RS expressed his dissent.
- Mr. BARlNGcontioned. He did not pretend exactly to re.
cidlect the-Right Hoe. Gentleman's words, but he remembered
.perfectly well that be (Mr. Baring) said in the Committee, that if
'a Misdate? of the Crown admitted the transaction to be irregular,
.a Committee of the House of Commons was bound to 'lnquire
,whether another name should not be given to the transaction.
, lielL KNATCIiBULL rose to order. He put It to the Hon.
Ileralie„ whether it was fair or delicate that the Hon. Member
Abouldeeter into what bad passed in the Finance Committee ?
Mies of hear, bear: and order!) •
Mr. BARING Mimed. If be was irregular, it was very right
he shosdi hale heed called to Mkt, but be did not think he was out
of it—{Hear). He 'typo not aware that there were any considera-
tions to prevent hiin from- alluding to the proceedings of a pubic
Committee. The proceedings in daft case were before the House,
and the House must deal with it. That the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite should feel considerably embarrassed at it, was not to him
a matter of wonder. He (Mr. Baring) had himself objected to
the dismission of *the question before the Finance Committee. He
thought it important that in thaiConimittee they should avoid all
question* of a personal nature, that they should not enter upon
every little matter of rib& scandal. - Besides, the Noble Lord
(Liverpool) who was at the bead of the Goiernment when this
transaction took place, bad withdrawn from public life. A Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) who bad been concerned in It,
was no more. In fan's*: principal actors were out of the. ay,
end be (Mr. haring>. inks, unwilling tP mil up the 'minden in
the Inquiries of the Fjoaece Committee until it can under their
consideration in the regular eourseuntil they came to the-penis
cidr department with whichthis irehisiiion was connected. he
thought, or center, :that Abe COnunittee were then booed to
enter fully into the transaction, and he had drawn up a paper
describing the precisenpumer in Which he thought the Committee
should conduct the inqidry. .In the course be had pursued, and
wished to pursue on this question, there was no desire for ends
rating individuals—Sheri will no eh& intense feeling of party ac-
tuating him or any-of Ida Honourable Friends—(Hear, bear). This
was not a question affecting the Ministry, nor any person in the
Ministry to a great
(Mr. Herne') had very properly stated that at the period when
d"-.e- The Right Honourable Gentleman
--e-
this appropnatlon took place he was only under Secretary ,o(
the Treasury, and could not „be..considered the responsible per-
son. For ooe person who was in some, degree responsible, he
N./Mr. Baring): bad a rivet -eaters'. (WI inderitoed athe fliis
g pourable Gentlemanto allude to the late:fik. Canning): Thpt
person was nossaare; but when be had Mien thelead• in affileillt
bad induced hint (Mr. Baring) to change his *tint *in that Hot*
• Is the only ill"" he. 44.. nCsivino him hie,binebk support:' IW.meadpsediy.,teilmil*nt Matti* Slit PI) chtts,Ulll,oool

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