Star.
London, England, 1816-03-07 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The Shop-liftingßill went tbrm.gh a Committee. arer some
enervation. between Sir S. Roust LY and h Ir. 1.0 cKII A ay. Re-
port to-morrow.
The Committee on the Conventiln with America was post-
poned to this day seinnii;ht.
Mr. Jon N son .presented die financial Accounts of Ireland.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. lluoason, from the Customs and Excise, presented an
Account of the number of Quarters of Bailey rule into Malt
during the last year.—Orderel to lie on the table.
Sir W. Sit WART presented a Petition from Wigton, praying
for relief from the distreises under which the agriculturer la-
boured, particularly from the heavy taxes which affected the
farmers, such as the Malt Duty, kc.—Read, and ordered to lie
in the table.
PROPERTY TAX. _

- - - _
Mr. HARVEY presented a Petition from the Ale-
house-keepers and Publicans of Norwich, praying re-
lief from the Excise Act of last SesEion ; but they
did not wish-such Act to be continued and the Pro-
perty fax abandoned, because the latter was on those
who were better able to pay, and because the licence
duties were severe. As to the Property Tax, the
Honourable Member said, he might approve of the
measure if it were made a Real Property, not an In-
come Tax ; but as to the pledge of Parliament, the
whole nation did suppose, that the Tax was to be
abandoned at the conclusion of the war. If such

Opinion were erroneous, it was an error that pervaded
the whole i.atiou ; and under such circumstances, as
w.ts the general Asservation, he thought the feeling
of the coantry ought to be attended to.—(lltar.)--
1-1: h0..1 I nit give any pledge to vote against the
Prt.perty ras—he should wait to hear the modifica-
tinus +•t the Chancellor of the Exchequer—hut with-
out it was made a Property Tax only, with favoura-
ble modifications. he should not support the Bide—
Read, And ordttld to lie on the table.

Mr. IitEI'HUEN presented a Petition from the
Airmen ot Laycock, Wiltshire, against the Property
Tax in particular, the Poitioneri thinking in cnm.
mon with the rest of his Majesty's subjects, that Par-
liament was pledged to Abandon the Tax at the end
of he war. Read, and qrdered to lie on the table.
S,r W. GEARY presented a Petition from Chat.
ham, c niched in language. The Honourable
Baronet took the occasion to observe that he could nu
longer support a measure which the neeessitiessof the
war alone authorised. When he supported it t'-ere
was heavy war, and it would have been impossible to
raise the .:mount by Loan, except under the greatest
; but as the necessities of that crisis no
longer existed, he should do all in his power to resist
the coutinudrum ot the Property Tax—(Hear).—.
Read, and ord..red to lie on the table.
Sir C. POOLE presented a Petition from Ply-
mouth, also against the Property Tax. Read, and
ordt red to lie oat the table.

Mr. SULLIVAN presented a Petition from Marl-
borough against the Property Tax ; the petitioners
viewing it as a war measure only. Read, and or-
dered to lie on the table.

Sir G. CLARKE presented a Petition from Mid-
Lothian against the Property Tax.
Mr. HORNER bore testimony to the respectabi-
lity of the petitioners, and was assured that they really
laboured under great distress.
Sir G. CLARKE admitted the correctness of this
representation, but deemed it right to add, that from
the best consid:vati:.n which he had been enabled to
give to the sul ject, he was of opinion that the Tax
ought to be continued ; that it was the best resource
which could be resorted to under the existing neces-
sities of the country. Read, and ordered to lie on
the table.

Mt. LAMBTONI ;resented a Petition from Dur-
ham. He stated that the Petition was from those
called clamorous by the /sl,ble Lord (Castlereagh),
and being in amo economical mood, and evincing
an ignormit impatience of the bord,ns of taxation,
they lotaibly prayed a diseontinnance of the Pro.
pertyTax.—(Hear, hear).—Read, and ordered to lie
On the Table.

Lord W. RUSSELL presented a Petition from
Bratird :against the renewal of the Property Tax in
any form.--Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Gi•Heral FERGIR;ON presented a Petition from
the toe n ol Dysaat agaiiist the Property Tax, as at
on e in:politic and • •ppressive. Read, and ordered
So 1;e on the T.tlNle.

Mr. W. ELIA° IT ,wesented a Petition front Pe.
fitrborlugh against the Property Tux. Read, and
*rdeted to lie Po the Table.

Mr. CALCRAF 1' presented a Petition from
IVarrh:►m. with a similar prayer. Read, and order-
ed i o lie on .he Tehle.

Lord NUGEN r pres.:nted a Petition from Ayles-
bury against the Property Tax, and setting forth
other grit v.,,ices. • His Lordship stated, that he en-
tirely agreed in the principle of his Constituents' Pe.
titian, as well AR its prayer ; with them, he held that
it v:45 most titjUSti unconstitutional, and inquisitor
re l; ar.d that,ll,An the large military establishments
noav proposed to be retained, there wonld be no oc-
casion for the Income and Property Tax. Read,
and ordered to lie on the Table.
Lord NUGINT presented another Petition from
the same part of the country, namely, the parish of
Aston-Abbots, against the Property and Income
Tax, and the Pe..ce Establishment. Read, and or-
dered to lie on the Table._

_ .
Sir G. HEAIIICOTE presented a Petition from
Farmers, Graziers, atc. in the county of Rutland,
complaining gentrAlly of Agricultural distress, And
praying relief from heavy taxation. He attributed
the late high prices of corn to the great issues of
muney—issues Which had now necessarily been cur-
tailed, thereby occattoning much of the distresses
experienced by fa:mem Ihese distresses would be

• •
aggravatei by eganinnid beai* motion; tarred% I
'only reggired..tn keep up lgrge .milLtary establish-
ments, which; however improper they might he, he
did not agree uith_the Petitioners, proceeded from
deliberate design to overthrow the Constitution. He
likewise condemned the lacguage of a Noble Lord
(Caitlereaglt) on a former evening, it tending nor
onliko characterise Anise who presented Petitions as
factious and seditious, but to destroy petitioning
altogether.
Mr. SWAN said this Petition resulted from a few
Landholders, not from a County Meetirg, and that
signatures were obtained by a belief that it was to
obtain relief from all taxation.

„ Mr. FINLAY observed, that he could not con-
ceive why the Government should desire to keep up
the funds, which was the assigned reason for not re-
sorting to a loan, when it was the interest of Glvern-
ment that they should be low, that the National
Debt might be more easily paid off. He thought it
would be more advisable to raise ar6,000,000 by loan,
rather than by a Tax on Property.
Sir C. MQNCK said, the Petition did not purport
to come froela-Thei, County—it was stated to be the
Petition only of the undersigned persons. '
Sir G. NOEL thought it was the duty of the
House to receive the Petition, although it might not
come from the County. They had only to resist,
What was very foolish or improperly obtained.—
The Petition did not particularly name the Pro-
perty Tax; but he thought, at all events, that con-
siderable modification of the Tax was absolutely
necessary.
Lord RANCLIFFE said, there might be some
very cogent reason for this Petition not having re-
sulted from a County Meeting, as in many instances
the most abominable influence had been exerted to
prevent meetings for the purpose of voting Petitions
against thd Prepetty Tax. Stich was the fact in the
case of the Mayor of Leicester, he having refused
to call a Meeting upon a Requi,ition, kecause-it de-
sired the Meeting for the purpose of voting a Peti-
tion against the Tax; but the difficulty as to the,
motive which induced this proceeding might be
solved, when he stated that such Mayor was the Re-
ceiver for the County. (Hear, /rear).
Mr. DICKEPON, to shew the severity of the
existing mode of levying the Tax, instanced the
case of a Mr. Taylor, who stated by letter to the
Commissi .ners of Taxes, his inability to pay the
Tax at the time desired, requesting suspension of the
Exclumner process with which he was threatened
air 1:1.: Commissioners he was referred to the C
cellor of the Exchequer, who, after answering one
letter, referred Mr. Taylor back to the Commis-
sioners. The Commissioners replied, that they did
not feel authorised by Of. Act of Parliament to grant
the relief prayed for. He then applied to the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, who referred him to the
Commissioners of the Taxes..He wrote a second
time to the Right Hon. Gentleman, from whom no
farther answer had been received.

The CHANCELLOR. cf the EXCHEQUER
stated, in justification of the Commissioners, who had
always fulfilled their duty with impartialay anJ
justice, that the circumstances described by the tio.
nourable person, respecting the estate, did not come
within the provisions of the Act. The floe. Gm-
deman had then, a second time, applied to him, de-
siring further information ; to this, he confessed Le
had not thought himself bound to answer, as
first letter had appeared in a morning paper. He
should now advert to what the Honourable Nl;:mter
for Glasgow had stated respecting the Prolrerty Tax.
That Honourable Gentleman had taken rather a
narrow view of the origin of that. tax. It was ant in
order to raise loans on better terms, that Mr. Pitt,
Lord Sidmouth, and Lord Lansdowne bad rr c‘;rn-
mended the adoption of that measure, but because
they thought that the accumulation of debt from re.
peated loans, would, at last, wear out the resources of
the country, and they wished to make the cottony
provide yearly for its own expenditure. Had n.,t
'that measure been carried into execution, the 170
millions which it had produced in the course of the
war, would be united to the public debt, and an ad-1
ditional permanent taxation of eight or ten millions
would be imposed on the nation. Before the Sinking
Fund,and the Property Tax, all the taxes had no
li-
mitations. But how did the country nand now,
compared with the period of the former peace !
Even at this moment the Consolidated Fund yielded
a larger surplus than it possessed when the Commit.
tee of 1791 had made their Report. We had then a
Sinking Fund of one million only. We had now one
of £2,600,000, and another improving Sinking Fund
of eleven millions. Yet the House were told that
the prosperity of the country was in its decay I Of
that and of tuturity, he did not pretend to know any
thing, but he was only certain that up to the 2d of
March, there had been no diminution of the public
revenue. He was also of opinion, that of all imposts,
that which had the least tendency to decrease the
value of the circulating medium, was the Pre-I
perty Tax.
Mr. BABINGTON vindicated the Mayor elf Lei-
cester from the charge brought against him. He had
consulted with his brother Magistrates, before he had
refused the first requisition presented to him, and
the ground on which he had- refused it was, that it re-
quired a Meeting to condemn, not to investigate the
measure. He had replied, that he felt it inconsistent
with his public duty to call a Meeting to embody the
feelings of one clan of men only. Another requisi-
tion, properly worded, had then been sent to that
very Mayor, who had then callei a Meeting, and the
subject had been discussed. He thought it would be
better for Gentlemen if they did not canvass the con-
duct of person, in the country, without first inquiring
into the correctness of reports, and the reality of facts.
Mr. BROUGHAM, notwithstanding the expla.
nation gives by his Hon. Friend, thought that the
objection made by the Mayor to the first requisition,
was rather a sort of special pleading, to delay, if not
to defeat, the object. He should allude to another
case, not uesimilar. It had taken place in a City,
which, though it contained upwards of 100,000 Wu.
bitants, had no representative in that House. Ile
meant the City of Manchester. A requisition, -*net'
by one hundred of the most respectable inhabitants of
that place, had been presented to the Borough•
Reeves, who had delayed their answer till a counter.
requisition was set about. They then stated, that
having received two contradictory requisitions, al-
though they did not say by whom the last was signed,
they were of !pinion that it iyaa not proper to call

• ee
any. Meetm whateiveve TI:os was One of the Ittnst
considerable cities i$ the kingdom prevented from ex-
pressing its rlsinion tl:e Property Tax.
Lord CASTLEREAGH pretested agAinst the
system Adopted .by the Honourable Gentleman, to
canvass the conduct of persons in lie country on slight
havegrnu hnclese.n,Tmheocctlet ~tretiitt:is
iirtity eivdeunainlg. u
hadold
f iv
not an lion. Mienber been fin uwately possessed of
w
such information as proved the charges unfounded.
It would be a caution to the House not to give car
to the Hon. Gentleman. (fir hear, from the Ofrpo-
;Woe) If the system of running down individuals in
this !wiener teas adepted, it would introduce an idea
in the minds of the peoPle, that Parliament was net
disposed to receive the Petitions ef the subject welt,
the respect to which they were entitled. He should
now advert to whet had taken place at an earlier
stage of tile di bate. His Wet Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer ha, last night stated the
principle of the modifications which be should pro-
pose to the Property Tax, to relieve the people.—
.(Hear, hear, and a laugh on the Ono:idea. site.)---Hue
reelly knew of welting so ill received on the other
'sidedie ofptiltlehlHie:ens(eikaas the proposel of any iedulgence
to
with
regret
every
tbie.:l/1,-,evehi.2h They seemed to view
tonled to lighten the
, Tax. (Hear, hear!) He did sot coesider it important
for the winding up tit the expenes of the war, th.tt the
payments under the Property Tex shouli be meee
during the two yens that the impost was to be rttaia.
ed. Three, four, or eviet five ye ua might be allowed
for that purpose, witlieut any inconvenience to the
public service, as Exchequer bilis might
.be issued in
be met by the produce of the Tax us tt should be
collected. Much relief would be extended to the 40-
j:•cr in this manner, os w4l as le. some regulation in
the issue of Exclettilior Peocessi... He thouilit it fis
duty to apprise the Gerek-nen opposite of any
iru-
portant fact on which he intended to argue when Cie
discussion on the Property 'l'a should cemtnence,
that they might look at it and prepare any arcutnent
their ingenuity might sieeeest to contravert it. Tbe
part of the question to which this fact would apply,
was that which had been assuated with so much ener-
gy by a Right lion.Gentlenotn opposite, that to con-
tinue the Property Tax in peace, would be to commit
a breach of peblic faith, even if it were to stud up
the expenses of the war. He would shew that in at-
tempting to clamour down de; tax, that Him. Gen-
tleman had only deprecated the conduct of his own
friends. He had thus • 'limn-end against his pellticel
friends, and given him (Lore C.) an advent ege that
he did not seek. He should now proceed to estanlish
the fact, that in peeing and eagmenting the Tax on
Property as a Weir Tax, the Gentlemen oppesiiehad
not conceived a:emit:lves piecioded in g0,:.4 faith to
continue it in time of peace. In the 'Faihl.- B. 2J of
the Plan of Finance, brought forward by the Chan-
cellor of the. Exchequer under the Administration of
Lord Grenville, it would be sera that Minister pro-
ceeiled on the suppreltion that the country might be
carried thrcu',h then Ivor at aa expenditure of :-;2
lions per annum. The calettlaeoit was in itself so far
wrong, that since that period the expenditure of the
country had net hi-el under 52 millions. The loans
which would be it .cessioy eore ter be ntertgaeed on
t e W.e• Taxel ; rut Ito the Pl,,perty Tax alooe.-1
(Near, 00oritim). but on the war t
Trey were Cren estimated At nearly tweety
millions, their amount, being £19,800,000. Suppos-
ing that system had been adopted, and the y arly ex-1
p ;iittire to have been 32 millions, the whole of the
%Vat.'l'rzc;, includin3 the Property Tax, would have
ire ex:iatisted and mortgaged in the year 1619 ?'
as the expenditure hid been annually 52 instead
of tinny-two tae whole of those taxes would
have been mortgaged in 1815. (Hear!) Th.., Chem:a-
im of the Exchequer of the day had certainly said,
and if the war lasted only seven years, the Property
Tax would not be mortgaged; but that was not
saying it should not in case the war should last, and
in fact it had lasfe.l longer. On the contrary, it ,
must then have been tnortgaged with the rest, and
by this very plan the Noble Lord (the present Mar.'
quis of Lansilown) recognised that although the
Act was to expire wen the war, yet if the war con-
tinued more than seven years, it must share the fate
of the other taxes. This should be discussed on a
future occasion—(!/ear, hear, from the Opposition )
He wished the House to go to the bottom of it. (11:ar,
hear.) Had that Noble Lord's plan been adopted,
when in 1819 all the war taxes and the Property Tax
should have keen absorbed by mortgage, the country
would have remained WitlinUt Wiy resource but the
surplus of the Consolidated Fund. Now, it not only
enjoyed the surplus of that Fund in an improved
state, but it had a revenue of six millions out of those
very war taxes 'Lae would have been absorbed by the
measure. He would argue that never had a princi-
.ple been more solemnly recognized than that all war
taxes, including the Property Tax, would be mort-
gaged, and tl.at there was no parliamentary incapa-
city to effect that object.
MroW. WYNNE was surprised at the idea diet
tbc Property 'l'ax was to have been mortgaged. He
almost doubted his hearing, but be should refer to
the tables, and shew how unfounded was the state-
ment of the Noble Lord. It would be . found on
those tables that the conclusion was, that there
" would be no case so trefAvoorable as not to admit'
that the people should be relieved from the Property
Tax, within the first year after the conclusion of a
war."—(llear, hear, from the Opposition.) In order,
to prevent the possibility of the Tax not being aban-
doned, the denomination of the taxes to be mort-
gaged was changed from that of war taxes to the
duties on Excise and Customs—(Haar, hear.) After
this it was most unfair to impute incousistency to the
Gentlemen who had supported that plan, for not
supporting the revival of the measure in time of
peace. He had voted for the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act, a measure which he considered
justified only by the necessity of thd'case. But be.
cause he had done it when that:necessity existed,
would he be i r onshtent if he refused his assent, to it
tsin t
sdrahodoef;ef
thetoCti
ohifalreipt ettAariaLomscNv
aCn:risEtdwayoLst.
inL‘intalo,ieis
kihirn:oeotfs
iwpoffiteplheeci
netdoiegno
ep
eX-e ootaefifcl
etHei
heuEce.oatQrns:NtUilotsEhtbat
aakel
e
Lor)
g
ion
f
t
it was a question of discretion and expediency. He
then react from the tables an. account of the financial
system
uthFettnupd wouldrope bstd,ebeywahhii heda through ich it appearedroughthe
ure
that a.
•

raeon of which the puhDe would he rtli veil
from•neilrly the wil•de of the hor:rt;
sir-uld it have been pledged a.ter seven ykau
and from the r-ma'nJer in a
• Mr. PONSONBY chF.?tv:d, that the whole a,
ruent of the Noble Lord had been to prove, that.i:,
the system prepared in 18x,7,
.son: rrtim „I to..
Property Tar might have beentn.,rtgi••e.l in time
war, but he forgot that the paper slid, that i 4,
case, however unfavolti!.le, v. is Tit t rem •
heyond the time fired in the Act. Evil) aloha:
part of it hive been mr)rtgiged, Cis v
have been redeemed during the first year. The Niki.
Lord had !wen pleased to sir that ht.
sonhy) had endeavoured to disiinguish hitsneh his
friends me this snhjrct--that he had n-ettat.
tempted. Ht 11.1 d only Said that he had
vote on this Tax. Nevi::. had less been said is d
House far the purposed pi:runnel ti i1"1141 Nth.'
him ; and he never -should rise so high in _Y.
opinion, that of hi. flit:DJ, and of the ulfa
Ma
when he should incur the censure of the N% re
Ide olgaby.c
repcated once mote, Oat the Legislatire-i7
said the Property 'rise should n t continue 6,
than six months after the signittire of emir
Treaty of Peace. The Nohle Lord might put
Convructi on upon the', but what was the Coaltrth:
do ? Was she to take the meaning from the watch,
the Act of Parliament, -or from .my canriati"
which the Nohl.- Lord 'night put epon thee)? -4
Mr. DA RING said, that suppo.ing the Natiderj
had proved all (bat he had advanced, it )tati,,3
come to this, that a plan had been submettalict:
liatnent, whelher good or bade which ease
c..witry sonnt years of War WitiVrit t!:,
lax at all. That was mnre VI in the );
Lord tnd his code-vitt!, had showed a •.h.in ,;ae
IP.AUS 1.1C4C. bad been so miraenlously•caachai.
lor, by the statement which they had nude to tut
it appeared that in two years theeabs.
would have reached the end of . her retourei,-Z
dint alindLd to the cunning device of the anstet/
A tilt Exchequer, in wiping oif the words «no
longer" Iran the Act, a v:ce which htd breii cat.
vassed at a meeting which he had .:titlicird tint
morning, in a manner whit!) Le shAntl not with tie
Right tlon&arable Genth•rnan to hive heard. 'l'at
omission. proved, that Le intended t• weds al
much as p-ssible, the pledge existing beteern pa,
liament and the pe,,pie. He then defended tbess,
of inquiring into the co iduct r,f persons in the
who opposed she di: p:,sition of the people to p,t,4.
He reproved the plan ul partial concessinat wile
by Ministers, as n•:joist to the whole of the ssfai,
from the Tr v. W.th ali those exceptions the
would not produce tive millions annually. I
posing all the diffsculties should begot over,
million.s should be pmduceds_ they would hr
fes-.1 on pubic credit, and it would be mon
to relinquish the Tax altogether, than
united voice of the c!..nntry. The relici
country from this rahnoxicas -iarthen woe
charge of only £60000:L This would
to get rid of ail this question of publit
charge would prosije a fund for the rt
the ten millions ; and he pat it to:he Ht
this SUM CO ild at all affect thepnhlic trot
surplizing that Ministvrs, with this
Cieir eyes, should parse :et lit th.-ir syste
nfa only the landed interest to whom the is
• cut, but the commercial and trading intai
suffering, and the one required tdielequalli
as the other.

Mr. LYTTLErou contended th ct
of Lord Grenville, as alluded to by tte
(Lord Castlereagh) had no beeaseg
tion. The tendency of the speeches 4
feld was ungenerously to dtvrrt the
from the main quevi,..n. Et'ell the imhi
he spoke of as given to Ger tternen on Is
House, was equally irrelevaie, asid was
the artifices to throw an unflaiided sill
It such arguments were admitted, wht
come ot the uuqiiestiunable right of the
inquire into pitblic grievances, particularli
taxation ? Tee Noble Lord's manner
highly disrespectful to the House, or else
degree ot levity about him, equally
sylech ought to be equally resented by
There could be no question, that it
Tax had not been imposed, there woulu
greater proportion of wealth in our poci
therefore protested against the argument:
Honourable Gentleman (the Coancel,ur
chequer), who vcould tint', it he pertins
sisted iu the measure, that it wueld to
; sources ot tinan:e, of the most .
`queue to every class ut community.
wined that the cetisme-eitil classes of toe
fered almost as meet a: the aglittliite
received a fetter firma an inhabitant ot
the sulject of petition, trona eflitch he c,
the Hiette, that that city was sufferiel
from distress as any other lent of the Its
entreated Ministers, on re whole; to
; rassitz the Property Tax :or seine weeks
they might be accueinted with tile real
I country. The people of the city a' cow
tester had been deluded by the idtea th;
would have had too much consideration
a measure; but being disaprointed is
Bons, they were about tto send up al;
would explain their ' full sentiment&
with entrearin a farther delay.
Lord CATLEREAGII denied that
undervalued the exei tions a the essietry
ever shelved levity it was only in venue
upon the, conduct of the Gentiernea
was the only course he could pursue, as'
of meeting the reproaches is al:icb flu
much in the habit of indulging.
Lord MILTON replied to the elerva
'Noble Lord (Castlereagh), and d,ft..,Je.,
pie acted on by the late iltdminisnatien.
Commissioners onder the fioretty Tax
stated by the Right Honourable Golden.
Leer agents, yet it the Tax were continued'
not be likely to have the Assistance of per
descriptioo. He had authority to say,
Gentlemen wea e Commissioners mkt
Act, had declared Vide determination or
der the new 13i11, if it should be eettied•
Mi. MA 2 RYAT declare,: his fizeJ
that the Property Tax ought not, omio
circumstances of the county, t 4 be cunt(
T.,x ought to be kept as a sort aline uf

bet wi
in an

ciy

count
War tl