Star.
London, England, 1810-01-30 00:00:00

P4RmAmiNTARr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JAN, 20.
Tenth and Eleventh

Colonel DRINKWATER presented the
Reports of the Military Inquiry:

LORD GAMBIER.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose, and adverting to the Order
of the Day for a motion of Thanks to Lord Gambier, said, that
ke was sorry to say that his Noble Friend whe intended to bring
forward that motion was so much indisposed that he was quite
unable to attend in his place that day. He should therefore beg
cave to def.!r the motion till Wednesday, when it was probable
hi sNoble Friend might be able to attend.
Lord GRENVILLE thought it would be more adviseable not

to fix a day until it had been ascertained when the Noble Lord _ inrqi,
rn; ht be able to attend. STAMPS ON BANK CHECKS. mittee of this House on Fridity next, the 2d of Fe-
The motion, in the interim, was fixed for Thursday. Mr. GILES gave notice of a motion for Thursday next, for bruary, to give his evidence respecting the Expedi-
TIIE WALL:fER EX EXPEDITION. leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 48th of the King, tion to the Scheldt.—Moved and ordered accordingly.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL laid upon the Table respecting the drawing of bankers' checks upon stamps, at a cer-
PRIVILFA3E.
several of the documents which had been adverted to tain distance from London.
BULLION. Mr. MANNING called the attention of the House
in his Majesty's Speech, and observed, that he ex- Mr. HORNER gave notice of a motion for Thursday, respec- to a subject, which, he conceived, involved its privi-
pected the remainder would be ready in an hour or ting the state of Bullion in this country. leges. He alluded to a custom prevalent of late in
two. He hoped they would be printed and ready for ORDER OF THE DAY. the newspapers, of publishing lists of the Members of
delivery on Wednesday, when a day might beal"' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER that House, who voted on any particular night, upon
pointcd for taking them into consideration. moved the order of the day for resolving into a Com- I any important question, at the same time designating
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose. He said, mittee of Supply. The House resolved accordingly. I particular Members by marks and description, as re-
he had given notice a few days ago of his intention to , That part of the Lords Commissioners's Speech presenting counties, cities, or populous boroughs,
submit a motion to their Lordships on Thursday on the opening of the Session, which was particularly and pointing out the motives that were supposed to
next, relative to the matter contained in these papers. addressed to the House of Commons having been influence their votes. It was a practice extremely
lle had also promised to take an opportunity, in the read : disagreeable to many Members of that House, thus
mean time, of giving a more specific notice of the I Lord MAHON rose, not, he said, for the purpose to be held up to their constituents, and false motives
tendency of his promised motion. Since that time, of opposing the Supply, but to state his reasons for imputed for any vote they might think fit to give
however, it appeared from the votes of the House of thinking that the taxes of whish the supplies were upon any question. He held in his hand a morning
Commons, that it had been determined by that House usually composed, were not, as they should be, fairly paper of Friday, the 26th, in which such a list was
of Parliament that the causes and consequences of and equally collected upon the whole population of published; and he must say, that so far as concerned
the unfortunate and disastrous expedition to the the island. The burden was become extremely himself, the publication was a misrepresentation of
Scheldt should be submitted to the examination of a ' heavy, and ought to be equitably divided upon every his conduct. He did not mean to make any formal
Committee of the whole House. The motion which class of subjects in just proportion to their ability ; complaint to the House on the present occasion ; but
he had intended to make was also one for referring but in looking over the official returns of the finances rather wished to warn the editors of newspapers for
that melancholy matter to a Committee of the whole of of the country, there was a contrast between the se- the future from similar acts. Many other Gentle-
tha t House. But it had since been suggested tohim,that 1 veral quotas paid by Scotland, compared with those men, friends of his, felt with him upon this subject ;
the issue of the proceedings in the other House might' paid by England, which must strike every man at and he could only say, if the course complained of
possibly be to bring the authors of that unfortunate first view, who cast an eye over the papers. For in- was persisted in, he must take up the matter on ano-
measure before their Lordships in their judicial capa- ; stance, the annual amount of the war taxes on one ' ther occasion in a more serious way. He begged to
city. In consequence, therefore, of this suggestion, ! class collected in England was twenty millions ; that be understood, that it was not to the publication of
be should for the present suspend his intended mo. in Scotland on the same class, but one million. The the list that he objected, but to the particular marks,
tion, reserving to himself, however, the power, in i property tax in England was eleven millions ;—in and the designations annexed to Members names.
case such an event did not take place, to renew his Scotland it produced but £600,000. In short, upon I Mr. CREEVEY thought, that so far was it from
notice of a motion for bringing that most unprosperous the total of war taxes, where England paid 59 mil. being a breach of privilege to publish the names of
undertaking before their Lordships in their delibera- ; lions annually, the amount paid by Scotland was but Members who voted on either side on any impor-
tive capacity. He should now give notice that on four millions. It appeared to him that so marked a tant question, that in King William's time, (not the
Monday he should move an Address to his Majesty,; difference must arise from default in the collection ; most unfavourable period to freedom and Parliamen.
praying for the production of information respecting ; and he felt it his duty to state the circumstance for tary Privilege in this country), the thing was con-
other points and operations of the campaign. 1 the notice of the House, and particularly of his Ma.' stantly done by order of the House; and he thought
GENERAL ORDERS RESPECTING THE BATTLE OF jesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order that such a practice highly necessary to the people of Eng.
TALAVERA. measures might be adopted to correct the evil. , land, who would thereby be enabled to see who those
Earl GREY referring to what had been said by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ' Representatives were who did their duty, and who
the Earl of Liverpool on Friday night, respecting the said, he was not aware of any defaults in the collec- 1, did not.
impression made by the receipt of intelligence of the ''
tion of the Revenues in Scotland, and could only ac. I Mr. HENRY LASCELLES coincided in the
battle of Talavera, and the General Orders issued ! count for the difference stated by the Noble Lord, ; representation made by the Honourable Member
upon that occasion, wished to be informed, who the and which had not escaped his observation, by sup. I who spoke last but one. He did not object to the
military advisers of his Majesty were ? The Noble , posing it arose from the superior opulence of this publishing of lists of names, but to the misrepresen-
Earl made use of that term, in stating by whose ad- , country. If the Noble Lord was aware of any other '• tation of Gentlemen's motives in a sweeping and ge-
vice those General Orders were issued. 1 cause for the difference to which he had alluded, he I neral way. For instance in one of those papers, un-
The Earl of LIVERPOOL mid, that the term • (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be happy I der the head of Gentlemen who voted against inquiry,
military advisers, applied to the Commander in Chief 1 to adopt any suggestion that would tend to remove I his own name was inserted ; whereas he had distinctly
and his Staff, but he did not mean to state, that it 1 the evil. There had been a very particular applica- I stated in his speech on that night, that although he
was solely by their advice that the General Orders i tion made to him, for the purpose of obtaining a re. I voted against the specific motion then in debate, that
referred to, were issued ; but, on the contrary, he 4
-• duetion of the property tax on lands in Scotland.— I no man in that House was more anxious for inquiry
stated, that his Majesty's Ministers were responsible IHe made that inquiry, and although it did not ap. I than himself ; and yet this part of his speech was
for that measure, it having been adopted with their I pear in the result, that a reduction was practicable, I never given, as counteractive to the general state-
concurrence. neither did any thing appear to spew the principle of I ment in the list, that he voted against inquiry.
Lord GREY thought the statement of the Noble csllection was defective. If he was aware of any I Mr. WILBERFORCE had no objection to the
Earl not sufficiently satisfactory, as it did not explain neglect, he should certainly be glad to correct it ; but ! practice of publishing the names of Members who
I
by whose advice the General Orders were issued. he rather anprehended the Noble Lord's conclusion . voted on either side upon every great question ; and
If those orders were merely the act of his Majesty's I was founded on mistake. .he wished it might continue so long as those lists
Ministers, then the impression, which the Noble Earl 1 Mr. HORNER thought the House entitled to have were correct, as then the country would see which
talked of, was merely that which they themselves the fullest documents on the subject laid before it, in of their representatives attended to their duty. But
had created. i
; order to discover how so extraordinary a mistake of ! he had to complain, that although he had, in the two
The Earl of LIVERPOOL contended that it was the Noble Lord, if a mistake it was, had arisen. The I last great questions, attended, as on such occasions he
not a proper question to ask, at whose suggestion any ! very same idea had occurred to himself in looking I always had done, yet his name was totally omitted
measure was adopted? He had already stated, that I
1 over the accounts ; and particularly with respect to I from the lists in both instances—a circumstance that
his Majesty's Ministers were responsible for the the property tax. I might induce his constituents to think he had neglect-
Orders alluded to. His Majesty's. Military Advisers I SNPPLY. fed his duty. Another point of which he had to com-
would not, of course, direct the adoption of any mea- - i plain, was, that on one of those occasions, either not
sure without the permission of his Majesty's Govern- having expressed his own meaning, or not being un-
ment, nor would the latter adopt any military mea- derstood by others, what he had said had been misre-
sure without the concurrence of the former. presented. He afterwards got up in his place, and
Earl GREY observed, that he must then be satis- distinctly disavowed the meaning attributed to him :
fled with understanding that his Majesty's Military but no notice of this disavowal was taken in the paper
Advisers and his Majesty's Ministers had both agreed which had mistated him. Indeed, he must say, that
in issuing the General Orders.—The conversation while gentlemen on each side of the House had care
here dropped. taken of their speeches, he supposed on account- of
AMERICA. his being no party man, he had no one to take care
---, if there was any objection ~.. ,„
"wanting relative to the Ne- '- - • of him—(4 laugh).—He wished, however, that
had been tom, ..._ whenever he was noticed, he, at least, should not be
• his Noble Friend swer to that Speech, it was 1,,,,.. . misrepresented.
‘tinisters to subject. He decidedly protested against p...-__. Mr. PONSONBY said there was a circumstance
-tine, this country, burthened and borne down as the people attending the discussion which he was extremely glad
ire with taxes, to carry on a war in a quarter, and to observe, namely, the sensibility which Gentlemen
•!ale which, while it must be ruinous to our shewed towards the opinions of their constituents...-.
- utterly hopeless as to any ulterior ob- (Hear, hear, hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Menlo
she miseries already brought up- ber who spoke last, that wilful misrepresentations of
1-a v our to defend Portugal any thing which passed in that House, was not to be
---,food, now abandon- suffered ; but if a mistake occurred through misun.
--severed in, he derstanding, no great mistake could arise where Gen. ,
1 ition of I tlemen had the opportunity next day of correcting
-NI I those mistakes, and setting themselves right.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
did not know what reason the Honourable Gentle-
man had so particularly to compliment the House on
being thus anxious to stand well with the Public. He
did not know that they were then more than usually
so, or that they had done any thing that seemed to
bespeak them inattentive to the duty they owed their
constituents. With respect to the subject before the
House, he thought if brought forward at all, that it
ought to have been not merely noticed, but complain-
led of. Did the Honourable Gentleman think it no
inconvenience to be misrepresented, because every
.Member might come down and correct those misre-
presentations that affected him ? Was that the dig-
nified line of conduct he would prescribe to the House?
Ought any misrepresentations to be made merely be-
cause they could be corrected ? When a Member '
made such a correction, the correction rested with
the same persons who had been guilty of the misre-
presentation.
They could give it just as they pleas-
ed, or omit it entirely.. It had been said, printed
lists of their names was not a breach of the privileges
of that House, because the printing of the names had
sometimes been ordered by the Members of it. Did
the Hon. Gentleman mean to assimilate the printing
of the names by their own order, with that care and
accuracy with which they were then printed, with the
publishers of Newspapers giving to the Public an er-
roneous list ? If a circumstance of that nature were

The House now resolved into a Committee of Sup-
ply, Mr. WisaturoN in the chair.
On the motion being put by the CHANCELLOR
of the EXCHEQUER that a Supply be granted to
his Majesty,
Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose and said, he-con-
ceived the present a fit opportunity to offer a few ob-
servations to the House on the subject of Supply.—
In the speech of the Lords Commissioners, a strong
intimation was given, that it was still intended to
carry on the war in Spain and Portugal. The House
had been told, that in voting for the Address in an-
swer to that Speech, it was not pledged upon this
subject. He decidedly protested against pledging
this country, burthened and borne down as the people
were with taxes, to carry on a war in a quarter, and
upon a scale which, while it must be ruinous to our
resources, was utterly hopeless as to any ulterior ob-
ject : and if after all the miseries already brought up-
on the country, by the endeavour to defend Portugal
( Spain having been, as he understood, now abandon-
ed), the same course was still to be persevered in, he
could see no other result than the accumulation of
dangers that must be fatal to this nation. He warned
the House against suffering itself to be drawn by little
gradations into the support of such a purpose. They
had already the authority of a great Military Officer,
the lamented Sir John Moore, that Portugal was not
defensible ; and if that was the case, under the cir-
cumstance under which he formed his judgment,l
how much more hopeless must such a prospect be I
now, while the armies of France, disengaged from
all other objects, and in possession of Spain, could at
any time march such a force into Portugal, as must
overwhelm any army this Country could send thither !
He protested, therefore, against_exposing any longer
our brave troops to the risk of being out-numbered,
subdued, and perhaps cut off before they should be
II able to escape by re-embarkation in their own ships.
He warned his Majesty's Ministers against continuing
this hopeless contest, in compliance to the whim or
fancy of the Noble Person whose alliance they had
lately obtained, and whose brother filled a kind of
Vice-royalty in Portugal. He pledged himself to
oppose such a purpose on every occasion, and he could
not even let this opportunity pass without registering
his decided opinion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the present motion was only for granting to his
Majesty a supply, of which he was to have the dis-
posal ; but certainly the Vute of this night did not
pledge the House to any specific purpose,
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, his object for

Earl GREY wished to know if there was any objection to pro-
duce the documents which were still wanting relative to the Ne-
gociation of Mr. Erskine ?
The Ev.rl of LIVERPOOL, in the absence of his Noble Friend
(the Marquis Wellesley), expressed the readiness of Ministers to
give every information relative to the Negotiation of Mr. Erskine,
Which should be deemed satisfactory, although he could not
pledge !Muself as to particular capers; but if the Noble Earl
would trate the papers he wished for, he would have an answer
whether Ministers could consent to produce them.
Eat! GREY said he would adopt that course. The papers that
were more particularly wanted were, the enclosures in the dis-
pa:ei of the 2oth of April. His Lordship gave notice of a motion
fur Thursday for the papers wanted.
REVERSIONS.

Earl GROSVF.NOR said, he had in a former Session given
notice of his intention to call the attention of the House to the
st.liject of,Offices granted in Reversion; but the question having
beta taker up in the House of Commons, he would defer his
actrvations till another opportunity.
Afijourned till to-morrow (this day), when their Lordships
go hi procession to I.Vestminster Abbey.

• HOUSE OF COMMONS, JANUARY 99.
oicl JOHN THYNNE reported, at the bar, his Majesty's
pest gracious Answer to the Address lately voted by this House; i
wich wa> ordered to be entered on the Journals.
A nuniber of petitions, praying bills for inclosures and other
local pu oses, were presented and referred to Committees.
Colon I WARDLE moved to revive an order made last Ses-
sion, an not fulfilled, for a return of the Expence of the Royal I
Military Staff, for a certain period ending the .sth of January,
1809 ; • :id other papers connected therewith.—Ordered
Mr. .'ARNE!.I, desired to ask the Right Honourable Chan-
cellor o the Exchequer, if it was his intention further to contiaue,
in this ession, the prohibition of the distillery from corn.
Ihe LIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered in the
,I
1
affirm:, ive.
Mr. PARNELL then asked, if it was the Right Honourable
Gentl,!man's intention to extend that prohibition to Ireland ?
The Answer to this was in the affirmative.
11.• CHANCEL! OR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice,
that b.t should on Wednesday move for leave to bring in a Bill
Jur pt omoting the accuracy of proceedings in prize causes.
CIZINIINAL PRISONERS.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLN; moved in the usual form for a Re-
tort of all the prisoners ct niinedon criminal charges in all the gaols
of tf.v United Kingdom during the years 1805, 1806, 1807, and
. Igoe ; the nature of their respective crimes, the numbers son-
% :cced, and those uron Qeht,m the sentence of death or transpor-
talon had been actually extcuted.—Ordered.
S:r SAMUEL. RONIIL then gave notice of a motion on
rosy next, 01l the subjcct L Capital punishments.