Star.
London, England, 1817-05-10 00:00:00

from the reproach of intolerance which is brought
gainst us. We shall open the door of conciliation ;
we shall give liberty to our fellow.subjects, and secu-
rity to ourselves."(—Hear, hear I)
Mr. Giterree concluded, by moving—
That this Hpuse shall resolve itself into a Committee of the
whole House lar the purpose of taking into its most serious con-
sideration the Petitions of the Roman Catholics of Groat Britain
and Ireland, wit:. a view to such a final and conciliatory adjust-
-aurae as may lead to the peace and strength of the United King-
dom, and on such •bases as may best secure the stability of the
Protestant Church. and give satisfaction to all classes of his Mae
festy's suhjecta. .
" I beg," continued Mr. Grattan, 44 just to say
this—that my idea is not, in any degree whatever, to
put it out of the power of this House, to insist on full
aatisfacticn relative to the proffered securities, before
'they proceed to legislate—so that nothing that shall
occur in the House, either now, or at any future pe-
riod, shall be considered operative, unless the House
be perfectly satisfied that the.securitietoffered will in-
sure the safety of the Protestant Church and Stare."
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER stated, since last Session
two Petition's had been presented to the House, from.
two different parties of.lrish Catholics. The one, pro-
fessing to accede to any securities which the House
required—the other, which was much more nume-
rously signed, insisting on unqualified
tatter emancipation.,
The tter had even appealed against those who had I
signed the tit se mid represented them as worse than ;
Orangemen. It was well known that the Veto was
110 t open to discussion at present. He would pot it
to the Right Honeurable Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Grattan), whether the utmost extent to which the
Catholics inttnded to go was not domestic nomina-
tion? They would not heat of the Veto; and be un-
derstood that they had informed the Right Honour-
able Gentleman, in (Ilea instructions that they would
rather remelt' in dick present dependent state than
accede to the Veto--(Hear, hear.) They wese•then
in no better ciresimutices with regard to securities
now than thick had been berme, for all that they of-
fered now was a mere delusion. He would explain
how• this proposal was a delusion. Domestic nomi-
nation
of Irish Bishops was no new thing; 'the prac-
tice had etioed se lin, that o 'the memory of man
ran not to die contrary." He would state to the
House the' mode 'of electing Irish Roman Catholic
Bishops. He had been •tuld, that when a Bishop
died, a Conintittee rot Bishops assembled and tecom.i
attended a successor to the Pope to fill the vacant See.
Now the peiseu chosen wasinvafiably the coadjutor
9f the deCeased," who had been selected by Wry to as-
'list in his ecclesiastical duties. Thus then the Bishop
in fact elected his successor. Was not this domestic
nominatitm? But they 'were told some alteration
'was to be made; that the ratification of the choice
by the Holy See was to be taken off. This might
be something to them as Catholics, but to hint as a
protestant it was nothing; and thus it was that they
were to surrender all the securities they now enjoyed,
while the Catholics were to give nothing in return
but domestic nomination, which, under the circum-
'stances, wits a contradiction in terms: WX3 it not
then a delusioe ?—(Illar, hear.) He came next to
consider the question of securities, which would be
found as nugatory and unsubstantial. The Protes-
tants of Leland could not view without alarm' the
'spectacle of four millions of people, depend ng' for
their, knowledge of our Government, of the character
of this Protestant People, of their habits, manners,
sodfeelings, upon a set of men, whine treatment by
our ancestors, (and he deplored while he stated the,
Iset,) bad aliwrated thew from. that Government,
and induced an impatience of-its authority and sus-
picion of its measures--; (Hear, hear, hear.) The Pro-
- testants saw the vast nuntbcrs whose minds were sub-
.jected to the dritnination of a few 'Bishops. They
-saw annual meetings at the College of hiaynonth to
. determine the srutiments and direct the' conduct of
•the great mass of the Catholics; they saw also* regu-
lar Synods convened to take into consideration not
asnetety their ecclesiastical affairs, but to discuss ques-
tions which- must have the greatest influence upon
their to brethren. Was not such 'a systematic con-
solidation of authority sufficient to excite apprelten-
Aioitsia the breasts of the Protestants, if they should
.be left: without those safeguards which had been erec.
• ted ill times of actual danger ? The Protestants
- might expect, that after the treatment which the Ca.
tholies have experienced, and the means which have
• been employed to diffuse the benefits of educa-
tion.amcmg them, a spirit of gratitude would have
sprung up and tendered them anxious to give proofs
,of Attachment t 6 their Protestant brethren. This,
. 'however, was not the case ea a the contrary, they saw
;the Catholic deserting the Protestant tradesman, 're-
- -larding him as an enemy ; the farmer threatened
*.from his possessions, and seeking safety in emigra-
tion ; they saw deluded'miscreants waylaying persons
who bad become obnoxious to them, for the purpose,
of murder, till they at length, involved in infamy and
crime, atoned their misdeeds by a shameful death.—
Ile spirit of the Catholic was as uncongenial, as un-
attached, as isolated, as it was before, and Conse-
quently no securities could suffice, no modificatioai
now to be offered could give any advanta.ge—; (Near.)
As to the Veto, so far from the damage of it is
Committee tranquillising Ireland, he was- satis
that it Would throw thenthote• kingdom into a fer..,
*tent. The word *as well chosen to soften English
prejudices, and had been 'ingeniously enough used itt
the discussion, but it would be Of no service whatever '
o the Irish Protestants.. The only security which
the Protestant interne cob]d have was to be obtained
by devising some means of attaching theCatholicito
the English Government mid the Englisfi Religion;
he meant so attached as to look with kindness on its
piofessors, and join to communion with them in ste
case alleles with cordiality and affection. This
could may be done by the influence of the Clergy,
who possessed the most absolute somroul over the
minds of their followers. It was not 'necessary for
him to dilate upon this part of the question, because
Hon. Gentlemen Well knew that there was no pro-
position so hetet ul to the Catholics as that of theireto.
There was 'no other Protestant countrtbut Great
britain and Russia, where Catholic Bishops were to-
lerated. It vels true that there were eoverel Catho.
lic Bishops in the Prussian dominions, but they .were
all appointed by the Bing. Nut even a priest con be
ardathed without idle sanction of a Protestant Mini-
*.ster. No Systodactiuld: be held; nor any business of
trssnstickttwithdut its passing through the
Immo of the Minister. (Hear.) He dud riot say
that he Would introduce all this strictness into Great

Britain ; but be would aik 'the:rope what objection
there could be, as a mere matter of religions to the
King naming the Bishops ? It might be said, that.
in Prussia the State provided a stipend for the Bishops
it appoints. He would do so het e—(Hear,)—and
he thought no securities should..he enforced without
this regulation. In every Protestant State of Europe,
the ioterior Catholics were prohibited from holding
intercourse with the See of Rome. When the Right
Hon. Gentleman declared this to be the only intole-
rant country, he would as boldly assert, that this was
the-only Protestant country which would go to that
extent of tbletation which had been proposed to the
House. (Hear, hear.) With respect to Russia, it
was shewn that the Greek Church recedes as far
from Popish authority as the reformed religion of
this country. The Pope was considered the great
schismatic ; and the Emperor appoints the only Ca-
tholic Archbishop, and gives him a stipend. In Spain
it was held to be a high offence to have any cemtnu-
nication with the Holy. See, except through the
State. Persons offending are generally transported
to Afrita for ten years ; and in Portugal, even so re-
cently as 1811, an ecclesiastic had beendenouneed
ler having requested. the interference of Rome in an
affair emcee their Bishops. (Hear, hear.) The whale
of the European States were evidently then exceed-
iegly anxious upon this subject. And why were they
so ! He would tell the House, it was because of the
spiritual and temporal doctrine which was denomi-
nated the Transalpine doctrine—a doctrine which
had no footing atty where but in the Vatican and the
College of Mitynooth. (Hear, hear, hear.) 'the
Hon. Gentleman next called the attention of the
House to a recent conduct on the part of the Pope,
which it was fit that every Gentleman should most
particularly.attend to. For a long time he had given
the See of Rome credit for one thing, and that was
for nut interfering in the practice pursued by associa-
tions of persons, who had united for the purpose of
distributing Bibles throughout every part of the
world ; associations which may be compared to an
Angel from BRAVES, spreading the light of the Gos-
pel throughout all nations, and in all languages.—
(Hear.)—He had felt some satisfaction at finding, that
the Pope did not attempt ter obstruct their benevolent
views ; and be hoped such would continue to be his
determination. In this, however, he was disappointed ;.
on the 29th of June, a Bull was issued by the See of •
Rome, in which this practice was directly censured
and reprobated. In Allis bull were the following
*ords We have long abhorred this abominable
device by which the very foundations of religion are
attempted to be undettnined s and having, in consi-
, deration of the great importance of the subject, con-
medico our council our venerable brethren, the Car-
dinals of the. Holy. Roman Church, we have delibe-
rated with the utmost care and attention upon the
measures proper to be adopted by our pontifical au-
thority,. in order to remedy and abolish this pesti-
lence as far as possible 1". Such, continucd.the Ho-
nourable Gentleman, were, the sentiments uttered
by modern Rome. • He noticed the circumstance
ntrt. for the purpose of inducing 'Protestants to reta-
liate, but in order to thew that the Runtish Church
had undergone no chenge, in the progress of .time,
but that it was still the same it had ever been.—
He should next , call the attention of the House to a
,work that had lately been published by a Roman
Catholic Priest of the name of Gandolphy. His
book professed to give a clear exposition of the doc-
trines, of the Catholic Church. It was true that
Doctor Poynter, the Catholic-Bishop, had ordered
this work to be suppressed; fronethis order Doctor
Geudolphy appealed to the See of Rome; his work.
was .:iubmitted to a tribunal there, and that tribunal
affixed to it their imprimatur. After examining the
,whole of the conipusitiun, the ttibunat declared that
the author bad exhibited the Catholic faith one clearer
light than any other person had done, and that it
would be highly advantageous, not.only to the land
of Saints (weaning Ireland), but to the•entire Catho-
lic Church. The Honour-Able Member then tea •
some passages from the book+ in order to spew its
nature and tendency. Hate the author described the'
Protestant religion as the severest curse that ever was
inflicted on mankind ; and speaking of the Bishop of
London, not however alluding to any panieolar in-
dividual, he represented hint as " a missionary from
the spirit of darkness, and as the disciple of the father
of lies."—(Hear, hear.) In another part, the author
called the reformation an unjustifiable rebellion
against the Church of CHRIST. The authority of one
was founded in strength, and that of the other in
truth. So far for the sentiments expressed by the
See of Rome, and by.Romish Clergy. With respect
to what the See of Rome had done, he would ask it
the restoration of the Jesuits was no trifling measure?
Were all these that he bad stated, things against
which we ought to shut our eyes His object was to
skew, that it the House entered .on such an experi-
MOM ale that of admitting the Roman Catholics tn..
a participition of the power of the State, it Was per'
cessery to have such securities as were required by
the whole Christian world. An opinion was current,
that if the Roman Catholics were once admitted to
participation of political power, the Catholic Laity,'
dismardieg aey opinions promulgated by 'Mei&
Priests. would continue to conduct themselves with
loyalty and attachment towards the Government.—
That, however, would not be sufficient to counteract'
the influence of the clergy, which was alone sufficient
to envelope the whole of the Roman Catholic popu-
lation. lime-Mr. Foster referred to certain parts of
our history, to stew What had been the-temper and
spirit of the Catholic clergy' informer times. After
Marks the First had been• put to death, the Catholics
of Ireland assembled a Council or Perliathent at Kil-
kenny { there-the Duke of Ormond made peace with
a'RomaiCathollc Parliament, and one of the-articles
of 'the treaty insisted on by the Bishops was, that,
they shoulu retain in. their, hands all the Protestant
.chumbee, and all who afterwarderefused trecomply
with this 'article wetwexcornmunieated. The Catholic'
clergy thentook the' whole executive power • of the
country into their hands, and' hrew numbers of per-
sons into prison. After this, when Cromwell came,
to Ireland,theCatholicaristneracy desired the clergy.
to make,' Common cause with the LOrdLieutenant,'
but to no effect { for they even excommunicated the
'Lord Lieutenant. He thoUght it necessary w Mph
6011311es* facts, because he believed in his eonscien
that-if the Roman Catholic clergy had the prredaiti
nemesia Ireladd, 'they would' att in Mit ,three
tarr manner they had done before. ,He wished to
state, that the Reformed= had never made any pm-

greminilieland, eves after it was cdhquered in the
seigreof Elisabeth. -No progress whatever was made
-in the couutry. It was James the First who este-
'Wished a new lace of men in Ireland. The rebellion
eHryrene gave him a pretext tor taking possession
of.the whole north province of Ireland, and that p. et
becamt,settlisi by numerous British Protestant fami.
lies; who .occupied the low lands. In a short time
the edible:et Ulstineunderwent a wonderful improve-
ment; and Janes, finding this plan succeed so very
well, caused a variety of similar settlements to be
made in many other parts of Irelend. All tie. time
the hativeCetholies never mixed with the Protestants,
but tied to the mountains, and they ever since had
kept up their feuds and their prejudices. To this
very day the animosities subsisted, and these animo-
sities gave rise to Orange Societies; the cause of
which had be-in greatly misunderstood. I: happened
that the anniversary of the battle of the Boyoe,
sinned to the Protestants their properties and thee.
liberties,.was regularly kept by them on that day, the
lit of July ; it %was usual for the Protestants to walk
in procession; this was considered by the Catholics
as an insult, and with that idea they used to rush
down from the mountains and make a violent attack
-against the Protestants, who, at first, were generally
beaten ; they used, however, to rally, proceed to some
place where they could procure weapons, and retaliate
upon their assailants. This was nothing more than
what human instinct must hive prompted them to.—
On these occasions they frequently shot some CAIIIO7
r for this they were brought to trial, and gene.
rally acquitted. Then the loudest complaints would
issue from thei'ves and other quarters against the
shocking persecutions of Catholics by Protestants.—
Atter all these facts, he would put it to the House,
whither the claims now set forth could be granted
with safety? Was there, he would ask, any possibi-
lity of manufacturing the proposed arrangements into
any Calm ? If so, let the He use gn into a Committee
But if that could not be done, it K:43 itliptSSible to
come to any arrangement. Let the Right Hon.
Gentleman lay down some definite specific plan, and
if that should appear' to be practic-arle, and could be
actsd on without danger, he should have no objec-
tion to give it hieconcurreoce.
Mr. YORK said, he was anxious to state the im-
pression•which the consideration. of this subject left
on his mind. It was now necessary to put an end to
this question in one way or another. He had always
considered the principal d:filculty belonging to this
subject to consist in foreign interference ; and before
he conceded any thing, he must have perfect security
against that foreign interference which was the very
thing he feared. Formerly, when this business was'
`discussed. the Pope was at once the vassal and the
prisoner of France; •and therefore-it was impossible
totem entered into any negociation with. the Pope.
Certainly this country was not bound to take the au-
thority of the' Pope in any thing. But the persons
with whom we had to deal made the business wear a
very different aspect, and nothing could be donewith
them, unless we took the Pope along with them.—
Therefore we ought to endeavour to arrange this bu-
siness with the Pope himself. That Potentate was
now in a situation to be negotiated with. When the
Pope was master of his own dominions hesmight be
negotiated nide end that was now -necessary to be
done.. If the Rotttan Catholics would take the oath
they set forth, and if the Pope agreed that it might
be taken, he would so far agree with the Petition of.
the Citholics—(Heare Iseer).-11he meet question re-
lated to the Veto, and to domestic nomination. It
was necessary that this should be a pure and domestic
nomination, and that the election of the Bishops
`shoteci be fair and honest. It was essential to this
subject that if thetonseeratiotrof the Pope- was nee
cessery; he should' pledge himself 'always to conse-
crate the person chosen by domestic nomination.—
Indeed the practice should' be; .first, to consecrate
the four Archbishops, and altetwards that these
should consecrate the other 'Bishbps. The Pope's
power should be nothing more • than Minieterial.• If
all.these things were done and assented to, he shnuld
have to objection to accede to the Petition ot the Ca-
tholics. • Now he- would ask, what security wit there
that this segociation could be brought about ? end
was it likely to 'be iticcessful? 'He would &elan'
that nothing'slioule induce hint to concede ear thing
or to stir one step in that business until all these'
rangements were previously made. This was di.
determination 'of his mind; it would be necessary for
the negociation to be immediately entered into by the
Government. Let the case stand' over till this was
done; and nothing conceded until the negotiation
was concluded and the arrangements completedea-
The Bid might be brought in, but not passed until all
these conditions were clearly 'agreed on. When the
Bill should come in, he would be ready to go as far
as possible; but he would propose some exceptions,
subject to which .he would admit the Roman Catho-
lics to a participation in all public offices. He should
have a great objection to allow the Catholics to hold
scats in Parliatnent, and to fill efficient offices under
the Crown. If one could be satisfied that there was
no design', he should not object even to these. If
the Roman Catholics of Ireland were like those of
other parts 'of Europe; he would not hesitate cue mo-
ment in granting them all they asked. But he must
declare it achisehrieion. that the Roman Catholics
of Ireland. and•ho regretted to say so, were the most
bigoted Roman Catholics in the worle. They were
more so than'the Ronian Catholics of England. He
should be happy to see the Howards, the Plurikets,
and other great families, sitting in Parliament ; but j
if the legislative frenchise was granted generally, he
believed the Protestant represeptation in Ireland would
be ettinet. Tf.e presenecertainly was the best time,
to take the subject up : we had destroyed the most
dangerous and inveterate enemy this •or any other
country ever hadeo contendwith; and we now might
proceed to the present subject with safety. He hoped
the deliberations of the House on this subject would
'finally have the effect of doing away all the heart.
burnings and animosities that hadeso long prevailed
among the people of Ireland. He was persuaded,
that we ought to de every thing in our power, some
way or other, to conciliate oar felloir subjects in that
Country. He did not hope to be able to satisfy all
panics, for that was -impossible ; but the House
would fully discharge' its duty Isy doing.that which'
was right.anti Just.. With these impressions on his.
Objection to give hisassetit to elle
astetitnebeftrenthe Noise. • •
Sir J. COX HIPPESLEY began, by noticing the
proposals made by him last I;csuon, for :Trip% to,

the Pope for a eOncordatum to *We the question of
nomination ; but this was a matter which did map.
pear to him to be of much consequence. He had
kno..en instances of domestic nomination of Biships
in this country. in which the nomn don had been it-
, fused by the Pope. The Hcnourabla Baronet arts
alluded to the motion he had formerly made.* in.
formation respecting the nothinatoin of:Bishops in
different countries. These documents were tarnished
by the diplomatic Brits of different nations, And
they threw very considerable light on this important
crestion. It appeared from them, that in almost a 4
the nations of Europe, the Catholic Bishops wtie
' elected without any interference on the part of the
Pope. The Honourable Baronet entered into a his,
tory of the proceedings of the Catholics in Ireland for
some years past s asserted that no restrictions what.
ever existed against Catholics in Scotland, where they
v.:ere admitted to every kind of office ; and ccrschteti/
' with supporting the motion.
_ _ _ _ _ 1

Sir El: PARNELL expressed the satistaetion.he •
felt at the very conciliatory and useful speech he had
heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite; to
every part of which, 'however, he could not agree.
Oti the question Of dotneitic nomination, he misled
he should be able to convince that Right Hon. Gen-
tleman and the House. that the practice relative t;•
the appointment of Bishops in Ireland was yery ail-
ferent from what had been stated. He should also
spew that in that instance a complete security would
be given to the Government. An Honourable G,i,
demon had stated that Bishops were in the habit of
appointing coadjutors. Nu such practice prevailed
in Ireland. The thing was very seldom done, and
that only in case of great bodily infirmity on the pp•
of a Bishop. It was a most essential part of the r.
sent discussion, to understand what was the pinata
observed in the notninttion of the Catholic Bishop..
Whenever a vacancy occurred, the Bishops of the
province met, and had the opinicins of the benefited
clergy belonging to the vacant diocese, as to ilymea.
proper person to be chosen. Three triunes were the,
!elected. These were seat to the Pope, who Lad tie
power of appointing any one of the three, but V/1,3
generally approved. of the person whose name stood •
first on the-list, as a matter of course, though nut of
right. Now as many Gentlemen were apprehensive
Ot red .coneequencea likely to result from the into:
ference of the Pape; -he tert.uld, explain the arrange-
ments which•wc.e agreed to be entered into. The
Port: did possess the pottier of nppointiug Distlaps; he
flaigln, wpoo:nt a foreigner, bat. that was a power he
never exercised. Every body, however, acquainted
with the discipline of the Catholic Church kit:ninth-it
it the Pripe refused to grant an institution, still the
Intsiness of the Hierarchy might be carried on. Plc
the Irish Bishops now proposed that a concordatum
-shrifts., be entered into v.ith the Pope, whetem he
should undertake not to give an institution to any
Bishop but-one elected by the Catholics themselves.—
The effect of this would be to lenitive for ever the
possibility of foreign influence having any power in
the nomination of Bishops. It emeltl then berme
the national nomination which the Right lionnotab;!
Gentlemen was• so anxious to see established as A
safeguard to the country. This was a new tact, and
it took away every ground of objection advaaced ly
the Himourabk Gentleman opposite (Mr. Enter!,
inasjnuch as it altogetheineinoved the danger of le-
reign influences He .woul.l add, that the Catholic
• Bishops even whit further; they were witting to take
an
.ontli 'to...ilea, ho peison who was not a neive ei
thie.eountry, who was not 'of peaceable and orderly'
conduct, and who was not attached to the establithed.
Constitution. The following was a copy tit the oath:
" cA. B. swear that I.Trlll Rot Ow any.oersun to the sine.,
lion of bisbop, who is .not -a mativt subject of dust '04:40111*,
and whom I do nut bsdiave if, be a loyal subject in Lis ni.jery,
and that l will not encourage.anyiptClupt to alter the Imirs of the
country; mina thanifal.sboadd discover any other person nub%
a similar aueinot, I. win give intOrmation of the iame ta ha
Majesty's qovernment.,-
-This he .conceivetLto be,ri. Complete security to the
Government '..against any danger that Might be ap.
prehendedgfrom,foreign 'into ference. The general
feeling ot-the c'ithotics was' peaceably to submit CO
Lo;ty regulations which the I-louse-might think pro
,t adopt... He:rnaintaioed, that astar as the Cade).
loos were .etinetiened;' they had done every thing is
eli power 'tn meet the Objections made to thit
r •
. awns. The ciah'Which he had read ought to cot:.
nce the House that no apprehension of danger
1
, uld now exist, so Tar as regarded foreign influence.
, tdi'avat not the time to discuss the question of the
,T
. etoo,in a CoMMittee that point might be considerxt
and a satisfactory .enplanation come to upon is
.Thesefore he hoped the- House•would have no tobjx.
Oat to go immediately into a Committee, as ther
might never have such another opportunity c: comi;;;
to a decision on this most important subject. .
.;
Mra WEBBER contended, that this quest." .
conceded, would go to the subversion of the Chunt
Establishment of Ireland, it not to that of ihe ear
part of the United Kingdom. It would be: toned
an independent legislature totally unconnected vj
this country, The term emancipatiGn, said the l-ro-
nourable Gentleman, implies a pre-existing state e:
slavery, which does. not in reality exist. It 'Fa ti
the use of this term that many pour ignorant torsi'
of Ireland owed their miaaken notions of living ii
a state of degradation, which gave rise to animus-
ties that sometimes ended in the siieddnig of :1.1m2g
blood. If the law now stood as it did before 111"
penal enactments against the Catholics were rentevee,
there might he some pretence for using the term nem
cinition in reference to their situation. The Hance"-
able Member then went into a history of the Peril
tLaws affecting the Catholic', end their abrogation,'
inferring; that the lanes of exclusion now on the Sl'.
tote Books were nothing more, than had been onne
dered necessary, as the safeguards of our Conchs•
tier:, by tome of the wisest and best men of ditiefeet
ages in this.c.nintry. tie called upon the Right He'
nisi:rabic Gentleman opposite (Mr. Grattan), to rg
whether there was not danger to Protestant estattito•
ment in Papal auchotity ? It not, why call ter 5C'
.curities ? ( Hear, hear,. hwir).
Mr. W. ELLIOTT cut, he should trouble the
House withiery little op the present occasion. Ore
of the objects for whiclshe ruse, was to notice the im-
pression which had been made in the House, by ex'
tracts road .by the Huntrurable Gentleman 0p00.,11e
(Mr.,.Ftatter) from a Panipltlen published by 11_,.r•
Gaudniphy. It was true, that the Iloator went you'
this pamphlet to' Rome; and obtained an impriunatei
there for it ; but it was equally true, that CAI 6"
Letts had since informed Ph roymcr, the lei/wino°