Star.
London, England, 1816-06-07 00:00:00

IRISH GRAND JURY

Mr. COOPER, alter a few preliminary observa-
tions, in the course of which he commented upon the
report which a Committee had drawn up on this
subject, moved for leave to bring in a Bill to conso-
lidate, amend, and reduce into one, all die Acts re-
lative to ttie mode of raising money by Grand Jury
Presentments in Ireland. He stated it to be his in-
tendon not to press the Bill during the present
Session.

A long conversation ensued, in the course of which
Sir J. NEWPORT, Mr. PONSONEY, Mr. AREtteatomar,
and Sir H. PARNELL, urged the necessity of a Bill,
even in the present Session, which should place the
Tax levied by these Assessments under proper
controul. Nothing could be more beneficial to the
people of Ireland. On these grounds Sir H. PARNELL
ny.ved, that the words " consolidating," and " re-
ducing into one," be left out of the motion, fur the
purpoie of leaving only the word 14 amending."
Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD coincided as to
the utility of some immediate measure, but was un-
willing to take the subject out of the hands of his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Cooper).
Mr. PEEL proposed that two Bills should be
brought in, the one for consolidating, Sec. and the
other for amending,. so as to give the power of im-
mediate controul. The latter Bill might pass this
Session, and the former be postponed to the next.
The SPEAKER submitted, that in point of form
two Bills could not concurrently pass through the
House, both professing the same objects, though to a
greater extent in the one than the other : besides, the
Consolidating Act could not include the one that was
contemporaneous with it. 7
After some further conversation in which Sir G.
HILL and Mr. BARNARD took a part, Sir H. Parnell's
amendment was carried, and Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald
consented to bring in a Bill with the tide thus altered.
Lord MILTON presented a Petition front cot tain
cloth-workers in Yorkshire, complaining of the 11.-..rd-
ships under which they laboured from the introduc-
tion of machinery, and praying for the removal of the
laws preventing their emigration. The Noble Lord
remarked, that he was not aware of the existence of
any such laws. The Petition was read, and ordered
to lie on the table.

The Irish Bank Restriction Bill, and the Porter
Colouring Bill, were• read a third time, and passed.

CATHOLIC CLAIMS.

Sir HENRY PARNELL said, that having al-
ready presented Petitions from large bodies of the Ca-
tholics of Ireland, he could not suffer the Session to
close without stating the object of these Petitions.—
They exptessed the wishes of nine tenths of the Ca-
tholics of Ireland, whom he estimated as little short
of between lour and five millions of our fellow-sub-
jects, and therefore were deeply entitled to the atten-
tion of Parliament. The great grievance of which
they complained was that of exclusion from the Con-
stitution, and they prayed to be admitted to the en-
joyment of the Constitution. He did not. wish, on
the present occasion, to renew the discussion on this
subject which had so recently taken place ; that, he
believed, would be of no benefit to the Petitioners :
but he wished to take that opportunity of giving no-
tice, that early in the next Session he should can the
attention of the House to these Petitions—that he
should attend in his place in the first week of the
Session, and move for a Call of the House for their
being taken into consideration. He must, however,
express his conviction, that without complying with
the just claims of the-Catholics, it was impossible to
put an end to the disorders which prevailed in behind.

!Though the system of -nsilitary coercion sA.
' down present disturbances, it would not tr,74.14,
the minds of the people. He would take
tbi;, 4:4 •
tunity of calling upon the Noble L, rd eprioet''
dare what were the views of rig M,l;enrs Ggtr
meat on the subject. On looking track to ti e
spondence which took plJce between t:ie
verpool and the Marquis Wellesley, in 1812,1
that the Noble Earl stated various obstac.%
to
entertaining of the Catholic Claims; and, altp.'•
others, the then temrer and conduct o' ,th_
themselves, together with the st.:te 'and
in which Europe was then placer!.
Mr. PEEL rose to order. lie thougli: tin ec,
Baronet had professed his intentino of merely
tm;::
notice of a future motion ; instcld of wilichiLe„.:,
now entering upon the diw.tis4inn whicS iu Ilau
dared it his intention to a 4..
rcid.

• Sir H. PARNELL said it was his intrsere
conclude with moving, that the Cathnlllefli,7,ll't,
from cc-rtain disabilities of el 511b0;(5114te CIAS,._ see
the Right Honoureble Gete!emen chnse• to mire
him, be was slit eking of the °tirades rases 1,,.:;
Liverpool stated as opposed to rhe accede,.
Catholic CI tint.. Cne of these nbsteclse—ih.:t see.:
from the temper red conduct ot the Cates lies
selves—he conceived tit Lc ;low renewed Heel
leave to call the atsertion of the hi.erse to tie
change which had t ken plsce in the conduit t•-•:•',
Catholics. 'there had been niseel,g'
conduct which called fcr an; impti tetions neon
besides, it should be etc ,1,4 t the :jt.,,c:
had recently proposed to the I-: mss 4 plan el
their Bishops which would rc:nove all that int, '
rence of foreign influence of which so mud
had been expressed. The other obstacle assizre.
Lord Liverpool was the circemsta
jotieseisity;
Europe was placed. These, however, pee.
tally changed ;—they could no knives ee
shadow of an argument ; and, therefrreinit:ndtwi
desirable to know from Ministers, chat tiee
cumstances had arisen that would
en in
still refusing to accede to these chem. ?—(1/0e.)
If ever there was a moment which called upon ee. •
nisters to declare themselves, it was when the kite
Hcnourable Gentleman the Secretary
drawn such a melanclely picture of the state of tkse
country. He was afraid that the Catholics generous '
after having been so often defeated on the main nee
of their claims, were now almust reduced to dessert
and he was induced now to propose, th.tt there snouiS I
be granted to them certain minor conceseens, wee
it seemed now to be ad:Mae-1. on all sides !tight be
granted with perfect safety to the Constitetioa in
Church and State. From the conversetions he hid
held with various Catholics, he was convinced that
these concessions would be most Brat belly reccirci
Here he would take the liberty o advertingeo what
Mr. Speaker had said on a furrier occasion, wits a
Bill for relieving the Catholics was under midden- •
tion. In.that speech the Right Honoprable Gentle.
man, while he refused conceding to them aeygetat
political power, professed his willingness es iayopee
to them the honourable rewards of public servics,
and to make their religious liberty complete Attend.
ing then, to this distinction, he should propose cer. •
tam resolutions, the object of the first of wheel v ettie
be to lay open certain offices to the CP
those of Teller and Cashier of the Exchequer, e:ete
jeant at Lawe Attorney and Solicitor-General, that
of General on the Staff, the office of Sheriffs, &c.;
also empowering them to hold effices in Corperatues.
This revolution would lay open to tlee Cade lies tLe
various offices in the law, the public revenue, tee army
and navy, with a few exceptions. In illustration d
the hardships under which they now laboured, he beg-
ged to state the case of a Catholic who entered the
navy so long ago as the year 17b&, who had teiestelly
distinguished himself, and had been in censecesece
nominated to the rank of .Commander. Ses e ties
ago this person bed been called upon to take cut
commission, but the previous oaths necessary :e et
taken were repugnant to his faith,• and he had lc.t
both his reek and halt pay. It deserved also :o Le
stated that this person had lost four blethers in tit
Mejesty% service. The nest resolution which he sheeld
take the liberty of submitting to the House was, ilea
Roman Catholics might vote for the elections of
Members of Perliaments while t being subject hi
other oaths than ulnae taken be Proteetatan
next resolution was, that Roma ri'Cat holies shush, re
be subject to any laws touching the disposal of pus
petty, except those to which Protestants were beak
In submitting this rcsulutien, bebegged to nsentinii a
case which, he hoped, would shew ir•ceakity ut
Altering the law on this point. A Mr. *Evert '1
surgeon in Dublin, fu: chased land, and made a *al,'
by which he deviied it to his elder brother; but sot
having taken the qualifying oaths which the Paw re-
quired, the younger brother eleected to the devise,
and took possession. Tire real select of his ho my
tuns thtis excluded, and the law could nut a f, rd
/Ince .r resolution was, diet Roman Catholics might
be ciebled to grant land for charitable donations.
He contended, teat in a country purely Catholic, it
was a great and serious injury to pi cvent perms
from making provision for these particular objects,
and more especially where it eteret•rasd the educeien
of the poor. Tee next Resolution was, that it was
expedient to make provi•ion Ice the putiLhment of
any person reho should i d ...sturb the firm of worship
that prevailed in Catholic Cilapelse or assault any
Minister in the exercise of his Enctiees.
Resolution would Le to prevent Military er Nasal
Officers from compelling the men under their ente-
mand to attend any place of divine wership weft
where the Cetholic Religion was exercised. Arid
here again he must beg leave to refer to the lags
authority of the Chair, that the Roman Catliel:as
were entitled to the privileges which this Reseleven
ditmazded. He must likewise add, that if this Rev'-
lution should be :Treed to, another ()vitt to be
adopted, in weer to put the English] Catholics epee
the same footing as the Irish. In conclutioe, he
would merely state, that the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land would be extremely grateful for so much bet
granted gr
manteedas;uraeis yihi.dleici h
celtp: hadrsuadteaken the libertydtliattheado
olopt ett
the .
commending to the House would contribute in a re/
eminent degree to pacify the initiation which so tee
fortunately prevailed in that country. Ii sit
down, therefore, with proposing, as the first leesele-
non, that it. w as expedient to make provision her st!
eunishment of any pet son who should ti.
iorm of worship that prevailed in Roman Cat-cite
Chapels, or assault any Minister of that relig:ou )11

_ .
, • • , ,
the exercise of his functions.—[Mr. Pitt i eft
bevged tiLit the Standing Order of the House tight
be read, by which it was declared, that no Bill wick
went to make !rs alteration in the Religion of be
country as by law established, shtfuld be discUssetain
that House until the. propositions had been first on-
sidereJ by a Cammitree, or agreed to by the Hone.]
...This being done :
. TIP SPEAKER said, that in matters of this la.
tc -.2 it was the practice to begin with a Committee
of the v: bole House : ' at the same time, he did tit
know that any Honourable Member was preclude
from moving abstract Resolutions ; but certainly n.
Bill could be introduced without the sanction of a
tnnaittee.
Sir HENRY PARNELL observed, it was not
• the first time he had the honour of submitting the
substance of this Resolution to the Chair. He was
terfectly aware, that if it had been a general measure
ier Cath ilic Emancipation, it ought to be referred to
a Committee of the whole House; but by submitting
only these concessions, he considered himself fully
justifiable in making this motion.
Mr. Serjeant BEST was decidedly of opinion that
the Resolution which the Honourable Baronet had
proposed came within the spirit of the Standing
Order. The Honourable Baronet seemed to think
that he could carry his Resolutions by piece-meal,
but it was impossible to put such a construction on
the Order of the llonse.
Sir H. PARNELL would make only one obser-
vation' in reply. He apprehended that he was not so
much mistaken in point of Form as the Right lion.
Gentleman and the Learned Serjeant imagined.--
Several Acts had been passed in the Irish House of
Commons, which was governed by the same rules as
the English House of Commons, and that House had
always allowed Bills of this nature to be brought in
without previous inquiry by a Committee.
Mr. PEEL said, that if the Hon. Baronet should
think proper to persist in his motion, he would take
the liberty of replying to his observations.
. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought that the Hon.
Baronet was sufficiently conversant with the course
cf Parliamentary business not to press his Resolutions
against the express order of the House. He had Ho
doubt that a general good would result from the at.
aernion which Parliament had lately bestowed on this
subject ; but there was a deep sense that the Hon.
Baronet was pursuing this measure in a way that was
not calculated to promote the interests of the Roman
Catholics. The Hoivoirahle Baronet then stood in a
situation which, dile could reconcile to his own feel.
in s, was abhorrent from :he discretion and judgment
of his own friends ; and if he attempted to proceed
further in this course, he would sacrifice the ques:ion
fumn the mode in which he pnt it. He appealed to
the Honourable Baronet whether, in consequence of
this proceeding, many individuals had not withdrawn
thernselves from the alischarge of the;r public duties ?
He did feel that it placcd individuals in the must
painful and embarrassing situation. For his own
part, he was not prepaied to he dragged into this
question by any indiscreet propasitioa that any indi-
vidual might think proper to propose. It was quite
imposnine for him, wokr ti;csc circenistances, to give
any support to the motion ; and be czilled ou the
Honourable Bart,net to co:isicler whether be was
doing any service t)t he cause by adopting this course.
He sincere hoped that the Hinioutable Baronet
would ',el the propriety of conciliating the spirit co
Parliament co this quevion.
Sir HENRY l'alltNi-LL said, that the opinion
of the Nubie Lord placed this question entirely on a
different leoi:Ig. The Noble Lord had stated that
he valid not support the motion, which deprived him
of the 11,0,,,:s of success. He was placed in a sil it•
tion towinch every person who felt anxious to dis-
charge his public duty was always-liable. The peti.
nail %%lien he had presented could not be considered
in any oner light than as the prti'ion of the Roman
Catholkc of behind; and lie had felt it his duty to
attend to the sentiments'aini feelings which they had
expressed. He was persuade,'. Oat there was no other
way of succeeding in this great qtrestiun than by
bringing at repeatedly before l'ariiainent ; ;old so far
from thinking that repeated diseus•-iu is would be pre-
itiiici.:l to the cause, he felt convinced that every
discuss:::,it woad be a step or pr,:gre”. lie colvd
not but ,egret, however, that a sufficient de.;:rett 4,t
uttentioo had not been paid so this important subject;
r,:.d, with respect to the temper of the Roman Ca-
th :tics, it could hardly be expected that the irr ta •
tam would subside, when nothing occurred but
refusal alter refusal, even to the extent of taking
their claims into consideration. He had been anxious
at all times to support their interests to the best of
his power; but, after the opinions which the Noble
Led had expressed, he thought it his duty to with-
draw his res3lutions.
Mr. HILLY ADDINGTON brought in a Dill
to repeal several Acts relating to the M.litia, and to
amend other Acts relating thereto. Read a first time,
a:tendered to be read a second time to morrow.
On the motion of Mr. DAVIES GIDDY, the 1
Haute went into a cammittee on the Mine Odenders' '
Ml.—Report to-ma-row. I
On the ruction of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, the Exchequer Consolidated Bill
was read a second time, and ordered to be committed
on Monday next.
Mr. CROKER moved, that the second reading of
the Silver Coinage Bill should be postponed till to-
morrow.—Ordered.
The Irish Sinking Fund 811, and the Exchequer
Bills Bill, passed through Committees.—Reports to-
morrow.
Mr. LUSHINGTCN obtained leave to bring in a
Bill to alter and amend several Acts relative to
Smuggling.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
I.l';.Cli EQUE R, the Propetty Tax Collection Arrear
lan was read a second time, and ordered to be corn.
Mined to-morrow.
On the House resolving itself into.a Committee on
the 6cotch Distillery Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
after stating that palatable spirits were not produced
by the legal distiller, and that the market was in
consequence in the hands of illicit distillers, proposed
that small stills .should be allowed w the amount of
40 gallons; and that a duty of Bd. be imposed on
eery gallon of -.lraqi ; 6s. Id. on each gallon of spirits.
s. Mr. C. GRANT, sen. said.a few words; and
Mr. W. SMITH complained of the measure as
being too insulated : he thought it would be difficult

. .
'tb got tho-Righlanders to pa* airy ant); 'btu" *vie
theoseans of evasion. '

After a few words in reply frogs the CeANCIELLOR
Of the EXCHEQUER,
Mr. FINLAY comitiended the principle or the '
measure; but thought the duty could not be collect.
ed at its present amount.
Mr. MYLNE thought a duty of ss. would be more
effectual than a duty of Gs. 4d.
Mr. C. GRANT, sen. stated the universal preva-
lence of illicit distillation,. and. its lamentable effects
on the morals of the people, who, •by living in oppo-
sition to law, learned to despise it. The legal dis-
tiller ought to be encouraged, in ordeE to check this
evil, and that could only be done by lowering the
duty. The Gentlemen .of Scotland wished to put
down this system, but were persuaded that the only
means was to lower the duty.
Mr. W. DUNDAS thought the duty should be
reduced to ss. • and .complained of the evils arising
from the present hie) duty.
After a few e ords from Mr. C. SMITH,
Mr. V. FITZGERALD defended the measure,
on the ground that illicit distillation, with all its per-
nicious cousequences, never proceeded to such a
height as when there was a great diminution of duty.
Mr. J. P. GRANT said, that the price of the
illicit whisky was not more per gallon than the duty
imposed on the legal spirit, and insisted on the neces-
sity of removing the evils arising from this system to
the moral character of the people. •
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
observed, that,the,arguments employed on the other
side appeared to him to be quite as decisive against
the proposition which accompanied them ; e against
that which he himself had submitted. They all went,
not so much to prove the expediency of the precise
reduction recommended on the other side, as to spew
the necessity of a much further reduction. For his
own part, one main objection entertained by him
against such a proposition w.. s, that it would render'
the duties lower in Scotland that: in Ireland, which
last cluntry had, in his opinion, by the act of union,
a right to pa:coliar favour. xvx.A regard to his 1)1.411
of regulation being but a halt na..a)aire, it should be
remembered, in tho present financial, state of the
country, that its revenue and fiscal policy must ne.
ces:arily interfere with what would otherwise be the
counsels of true wisdom anti political economy.
Mr. DUNDAS and Mr. FITZGERALD explained.
Mr. FINLAY re-stated his reasons for believing
that the decrease of illicit distillation must always
bear a proportion to the reduction of duties. The
number of persons in confinement in Scotland for
offences against the revenue laws, was equal to the
whole number confined for debt ; and instances were
continually occurring of actions between the smug-
glers and the regular troaps.
Ater some furtiver otaervations from Mr. C.
GRANT and Mr. W. SMITH, the question on the dif-
ferent resolutions was put, and the gallery cleared
for a division. The Committee,-however, did not
divide, and the resolutions were accordingly carriA.
The House having resumed, the Irish Paper Du.
ties Bill was brought in, and lead a first time.
The Irish Treasury Bills Bill, and the tank Cpl.
tar Bill, went through Cemmittees.—Reports to-
morrow.