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. . .
said you came over? • cunfusion).--Mr. B. reiterated; with increased vehemence," I
The ATTORNST.-GENZRAL objected to this question, as it as- have a eight to- do so"—(Order, order, withdraw, willsdrato)— Mr. BROUGHAM objected that there was no proof of Schiavini
having any authority to give certificates of character, and be
sumcd that the witness had come over in the service of a Spa- "To that ' said Mr. II " I have no objection." complained that some entries on the minutes of what the witness
nish family. Counsel withdrew.—Some conversation ensued, after which had been told should not stand.
Mr. Baoucitem.—l wish to save time. Is it true or not, that Counsel were recalled, and - The LORD CHA NCELLOR.---Certeinly, what has only
you came over in the service of a Spanish family.-It is not true. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he bad it in coo- been told the witness, is no evidence at all.
Did you represent to Signor Marietti, or to any one in his mend from the House to state to the Counsel at the bar, that
family her; that the Qeeen owed you money ?-1 said I had a they must not interrupt each other while speaking, but reserve The ArromuneGineuese submitted he had made out a prima
facie case, that Schiavini had authority to give the servants cer-
law-suit, a process with her Royal Highness; but I never said any corrections or explanations they had to make till their op- tificates of character.
she owed me moary. ponent had Suished. •
The House thought the evidence not sufficient.
Was it true or not that you had a law-suit with her Royal The Armastr-Geneftee resumed.—To represent might mean
Highness ?—1 meant to say that I was in the process which was in writing, or not in writing; the Counsel for the cross.examina- Be-examination resumed.
making against her Royal Highness. - tion were bound to put the question in a way the least unequivo- Who are the Marietta's ?-They have a banking-house at Milan.
Did you mean to tell Signor Matietti's family that you were cal; the witness might be asked whether he had said so and so in Have they a house of business in London ?—I know of no
one of the witnesses against her Royal Highness?—No. conversation—that would be a relevant mode of examination; business they are.
Was it a double entendre then that you used in speaking of this any other would not In making this objection, he stood on Were they the Princess's Bankers at Milan ?—They were so.
to Signor ,Marietti ?—I never spoke of that to Signor Medea': the authority of the decision which, the Judges had pronounced One of the Marietti's called on you two months ago?--Yes.
Then to whomsoever you spoke about that law-stilt, did you as to this very point the other day; and the Counsel for het Did he state for what purpose he called?
use it as a d able entendre to that person? Majesty could have no other object in their present course of pro- Mr. Hutu:num objected to any conversation between the
The ArroaszinGssaaat. said, the Learned Counsel bad no ceeding, than to obtain a revision of that decision. witness and M. Marietti.
right to ask what was passing in the mind of the witness. Mr. BROUGHAM now explained, and said he had never contended The ArmaxneGuisiete submitted, the question arose out of
Mr. Beoueueet contended, vpon the authority of the Duchess for anything else than simply for his right to ask generally wise-
the cross-examination. Mr. Brougham had examined to part
of Kingston's cue, that he ores entitled to ask the question, and ther the witness had ever represented so and so. Neither had of the conversation, and he had a right to know the reat.
quoted some passages in the evidence, which proved that two Mr. Denman admitted that their object vas to get the witness to The LORD CHANCELLOR—Read that part of the evi-
dence.—Tbe evidence was read.
questions had been asked as to the expectations of a witness, declare as to the contents of ahy written paper. He had merely
and three as to his belief. taken up the next stage of the argument, and contended hypo- The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it must be a continua-
Thetion of that particilar conversation, and no other.
LORD CHANCELLOR desired that the terms of the thetieally that if the case were even so, they had a right to put
question should be stated; and when the question was repeated, the question. Lord ERSKINE was of the same opinion.
decided that Mr. Brougham was competent to ask it. . The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that the former de- Lord LIV ERPOOL understood it was a conversation rela.
Answer.—Yea, as a double entendre. cislon of the Judges, as to the production of letters, did not tine to the witness being here, and being a witness against the
Did you allow Merited to discover you were one of the wit- amount to a decision of the propriety of putting the present clues-
Queen. He submitted to the House whether they should not
nesses in this business? tion, and with the leave of the House, he would now put it to be put in possession of the whole conversation?
The Arroexer-GENERA L. objected to this question, the Judges, whether according to the practice of the Courts be-
The Arromsee-GeNeam., under the direction of their Lord.
Mr., BROUGHAM .—Well then put it—Did you disclose to any low Counsel are entitled to ask a witness whether he bad made ships—On what occasion was it you had this conversation about
person who you were ?—I told this to Mr. Marietti after I re- certain representations without specifying whether these repro_ the Queen?
Mr. BRORGRAM still objected. It appeared in the evidence
turned from Aston. sentations had reference to any written document?
Did you not know that Medea* family had alieady disco- The House baying assented, the Junes withdrew to consider that the witness said something to Merietti, but not a word of
vered who you were?-1 do not know. of the putt. While the Junta were out, what Marietti said to the witness.
Do you mean to swear they did not already know who you KENYON took the opportunity of moving, first, fora Mr. DENMAN supported the objection of his Learned Leader.
-were?—'That I was a witness.? copy of all Communications between his Majesty's Government The AlTogamv-GrximAL agreed that his question must arise
.Had they not found out your real name?--Yes, because 1 and her Majesty's Advisers on the subject of pecuiary Supplies, out of the cross-examination, and he contended the present
bad mentioned it some time before. since the month of June last; secondly, fur an account of all question did so. Ile would put it to their Lordships to say,
But not to any of Marietti's family?--I toldiny real name to Supplies of Money made to Iler Majesty since her arrival in whether a Counsel, in cross-examination, was to get an isolated
one of the brothers of Marietti, who was in the family. this country. question of conversation ; and the Counsel, in his examination
lbw long is it ago since you told this to one of the Marktti's? Lord LIVERPOOL complained of the irregularity of mal:ing in chief, was not to be allowed to have an opportunity of putting
d
A few months after I was there. . such a motion, without any communication of it having been questions to explain the observation of the witness so obtaine
how long is it ago?—Seven or eight months. made to him. Nu complaint had been made by her Majesty's in cross-examination.
To whom did you tell your name, and who you were two Advisers, of the want of money, or of any other facility neces-
The LORD CHANCELLOR was of opinion the exarniva.
months ago?—Two months ago—l do not remember. sary for her Majesty's defence ; and though his Lordship bad no thin must be confined to this very point.
Did the Gentleman of Mr. Marietti's family, to whom you objection to laying before the whole world all that had pused on The Arroaxar-Geocznee—Did any conversation take place
told who you were, ever see you afterwards ?—lt is some time the subject, he saw no necessity for deviating so far from the between you and Marietti relating to your being a witness against
since : he has set out for Aldan. established forms of the House, as to consent to the present inc. the Quern?—Marietti told me, that Mr. Brougham, the bro-
have you ever been in Mr. Marietti's house since that time? don. The Noble Lord might canveit his motion into a notice thee of Mr. Brougham, the Counsel to the Queen—
,
—Several times. of motion for to-morrow. Mr. BROUGHAM here interposed when
When was the last time you were there tr make a visit ? Lord KENYON explained the cause of his bringing for. Lord EXMOUTH called the Counsel to order.
.
Three or four months ago. ward the motion without any regular notice. He had been in-
Mr Baouanam submitted be had a right to stop the question
Did they then know you were Milani, or Sacchi?—The Iwo- formed, since he came into the House, that the case for the if he felt it to be irregular.
ther who set out for Milan knew I was Sacchi; the other not. Bill would be closed to-day, and, conceiving it of the greatest Lord EXMOUTH could not but consider the thus inter-
Did they call you Sacchi that day ?e-Never. consequence that their. Lordships ~and. the Public should be rupting a witness as inegular—(Order ! Order I).
Did you tell the family of Mr. Godfrey, at Aston, that you satisfied that her Majesty had every means and facility given Earl GREY was certain the Noble Viscount was wrong. It
were Milani, or Sacchi ?—I said I was Sacchi. her to prepare her defence, he could not defer making the mo-
Was the duty and the privilege of Counsel so to Interpose; and he
Did you say you were one of the witnesses?—l did not say tion for the necessary information on the subject which he had tsusted the House would not so far forget it duties as to inter-
that ; but 1 caused it to be told them. just submitted. But as it now appeared, from what had fallen fore with—(Cries of Order, order 1)---As the Noble Visciount had
Who did you cause to communicate this?—A Mr. Sperati. from the Noble Lord, that there was no probability of the case taken on himself to instruct the witness and the Counsel iu their
Who is Mr. Speriti ?—An English Gentknran whom I have closing this day, he begged to convert his motion into a notice duty, he would perhaps condescend to direct the House in the
known at the house of Mr. Medea. of motion for to-morrow, conduct they were to take as Judges.
Is he not a relation of Marietti?—l have beard he is a cousin. After being about twenty minutes absent, the Judges re. Lord EXMOUTH considered he was doing no more than
his
Tell us what was the first time that Sperati knew who you turned, and the Loan Cuter Juirrica gave the following opinion: duty, any more than the Noble Earl. He was obliged to
really were?—lt was on one day be came to me on a visit, then "We are of opinion, though there is not in the Courts below any Noble Lord who would eivaigm informadon,but he would
I told him who I was. any established rule upon the point, that if a witness be asked not submit to the cruestioning of the Noble Earl. He was
I low long is that ago?—Seven or eight months, if he has made any particular representation, it is competent as anxious as the Noble lush to do his duty, and he trusted be
Earl
You will swear it was at least seven months ago?.-.-About for the Counsel on the opposite side to interpose, and ask
should discharge it with more temper than the Noble
at 1 was
did.
seven months ago. if that representation has been reduced to writing or not.—
The witness resumed—Marietti asked, was it true that
Did you ever make application to be taken back into the sere If it be in writing, the document must be produced before the a witness against the Queen ? and I answered in the affirmative.
vice of the l'rincess of Wales?—Yens rte reser& ! witness can be asked a question about it. If it be oral, then the Marled said—
Mr. DRNMAN here again interposed. The examination ought
Did you ever represent, after you had left the service of her question can be put. In explanation, the Learned Judge re-
to stop here, as the question respecting the witness being an eve-
Royal Highness, that you were in a destitute condition ?-Never. commended that the question should be put in two parts : first,
Will you swear you never entreated any one of her Royal whether the witness made a representation; and secondly, of dente against the Queen had been answered, and the converse,.
Highness's suite to take pity or have compassion on your sitarwhat particular nature that representation was." tion ought to proceed no further.
tion—Aew mt ricordo ! On what occasion do you mean? Tne LORD CHANCELLOR intimated, that his practice Mr. BROUGHAM submitted, that the answer in the cross-exa-
Mr. Baotenseu.—First answer my question, sad then I will in the Courts below enabled him to give an opinion nearly to mination on which the re-examination was founded waste-n I
answer your's. Did you never entreat any one of the Princess's
told hlarietti I was a witness against the Queen." His Learned
the same effect.
' suite to take pity or compassion on you ? It may be that I did so. The Counsel were then called in, and the opinion of the Friend had now, in hues re.examir.atiote got all which preceded
that observation, and had no right to inquire as to what followed.
Did you ever represent to any pereon, after you had left the Judges was stated to them.
The ArromemeGvotam. again contended, that his Learned
service of the Princess, that you taxed yourself with ingratitude Mr. BROUGHAM begged to know whether, before he knew
towards so generous a mistress? that any representation tad been made at all, he was to ask the Friend having obtained part of a conversation in cross examine.
The :mosses-Guuee, after asking for a chair for the wit- witness if he had made a representation in writing? tion, did it at the risk of having the whole conversation brought
ness, on account of indisposition, which was immediately allow- A conversation upon the subject took place, in which several out in re-examination.
ed bine objected to the question put by Mr. Brougham, because Lords joined. Mr. Bftevemau repeated his arguments against eremining to
the representation might have been made in writing, in which 'The LORD CHANCELLOR suggested to Mr. Brougham the whole of this conversation.
case he conceived it incompetent to the Learned Counsel to put to withdraw the question. Counsel was ordered to withdraw from the bar,
the question. If that representation was in writing, the writing Mr. BLOUGHAM.—My Lord, I much wish to withdraw the Lord L A UDE RDA LE thought the witness had been stopped
must be produced; but he would object to any representation, question. I have been waiting for an opportunity to do so.
tOO
oThswe soon.
CHA NCE LLOR thought tbe proper waywould
unless it was in conversation. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE did not think that tia:
Mr. Bawd:mem contended, that the limits of a cross-exa- Counsel for the Queen had adopted the proper mode of appeal-
be for the Counsel to put a question.
mination were much more extensive than an examination in ing to their Lordships, and he called on the House to protect The Arroamer-Guseee to the witness—What did Marietti
m
chief. Heeisad a right to put the question in the way he had its own dignity, and not permit such conduct to he pursued, say to you when you told him you were a witness against the
dune. .He%ad a right to ask the witness if he had represented The. Learned Counsel also had not treated the opinions of the Queen i—Mr. Boot cbject&i to the' question.
'
far from admitting that
so mid so, without stating whether it was The ATTORNEYGENERAL—What did Marietti say to you on
The 1.0111) CH.INCELLOR thought it too general.
Lord HOLLAND w in a written instru-
Judges with sufficient
went or in a conversatiure Aire' further, the only time in which respect.
as the opinion
thu opposite Counsel could take an exception, was, if the witness of the Judges was that by which their Lordships, were to be this subject ?....-..
cross-examination sheaved that any conversation took place on
Mr. Beouettest—T submit this is irregular, as nothing in my
had said it was in writing. He trusted their Lordships would bound. It was a Parliamentary rule, that their Lordships
'sot adopt a coulee, the consequences of which would be, to pre- should never esk the Judges what they were to do. They
vent all the benefits of a croeoexarnination, might ask them as to the practice of the Courts below, this subject.
Here the witness pleaded indisposition, and asked for leave to i and then judge for themselves.' His Lordship wished the I Lord LAUDERDALE—You may inquire what took place
withdraw.f Learned Judges to be confined• to the points in question, and before.
The AxeOlOire-Greasee—Before you told Marietti yeti were
Mr. Dxx,u*—ln all the books of law that I have seen; in
a witness, had he said anything on the subject ?—No.
all the trials that I have read, and in all the practice that I have ,nut to give extraneous opinions.
The witness was then called in, and '
known. I never knew such an interpositioa as that of the At- Mr. BROW:MAY tininwiths cross-exantiaalion. What did Marietti then say on the subject?
torney-GenereL To furnish a witness with an excuse for not Did you ever say to any person that your conduct to the Mr. Bnonan.tx—Hen we object; nothing said by Marietti
answering a question, which only put hit credit to the test in a ' can affect the Queen, unless you first chew he was her Majesty's
Princess of Wales was liable to a charge of ingratitude to her
agent --.--The qt was submitted to the Judges.-
legitimate way, if permitted, must prevent the detection of every for her goodness?—Never. • •
conspiracy. I dare the Attorney-General to state a single 'Hue three Letters were produced by the Learned Colima, Lord LIVERPOOL said the Judges would perhaps require
case, to quote a single instance, in wbith this was Permitted. ' and shown to the witness, who acknowledged them all to be in some time for considering this questing, and as it now wantk
• .
It may prevent a witness from the detection of his frauds and his own hand-writing. .The Le%ten were not read-
but five minutes to five, he submitted thrproprkey get
.ing.
• I
perjuries ;it may, for the moment; prevent --A hi being proved Did you ever go under any other name than moue and Sace The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed hi the eulliefirion, and
as teken
totally disqualilied to give evidence. It can be of no oteer chini, or Sacchi?--I have been called by another name, as lam
said theeLeartied Judges would be materially assisted by having
use, nor used for any other purpose, than to prevent the still called the questions and answers which relatecito this subject,
eliciting of truth. What ! shall we not put a witness, *hem What is that name?—The witness begged their Lordships ile
s course was :Treed to, and their Lordships Adjourned.
we know to be ir,famous, to the severest examination, with- would prevent its getting into the Papers if be told his name, as After a few words from Earl Garr and Lord Larnmeetr,
out declaring to bane the meatai we Wive of droving Clint so? it might otherwise expose him to tbe fury of some persons. , thi the Short-hand writer's notes.