Star.
London, England, 1816-04-03 00:00:00

•
•

One great and important cause of airagreemAt
misted in the system and establishment of 'fithes.—
The Noble Marquis next called the attention of
the House to the subject of Tithes in Ireland, the •
efftct of which hai been to operate as an oppression'
on the poor cultivators end growers of .pcuatoes
auktoloti. othilo: the Bich, who employed their land
in the etraxing of cattle, were wholly exempt. The
consequence of this was, that as all the lower
e--L-1011.1effWert Catholics or Dissenters, abbot four.
fifths oPthe population were obliged to pay towards
the sepport of a Church to which they did hot bAong.
The tax of tithes was therefore unemial and op-
. . peessrve. It was felt as a;r injustice by the great body
of the people ; and in common policy there should
be some other mode of-levying taxes to support the
Clerey. This, as well as many ot6r circumstances,
;.:oatle inquiry necessary. His object was, to move
•fir a Cfinunittee to inquire into the state of Ireland.
He thought a great difficulty would be removed, if.
Commissioners should be appointed with power to
`settle tho revenue of the Church according to the
rents of land I then at least all the oppressions of
tithe proctors and tithefarmers, and all the evils
arising from vexatious litigations, would be avoided.
It was not the actual sum received by the Clergy.
• .- men that was a burclin on the poorpeople, but the
exactions of the people he just described. There
existed another great source of grievance in Ireland,
which was, the jurisdiction and powers vested in the
Grind Juries, which instead of 'being converted to
the public good, were made use of as the means of
promoting jobs. The power the Grand Juries had
of raising money to repair roads, was general,* is-
'creased for the purpose of enabling, landlords to
receive the tenants' tenth for by making a road or
repairing one, they gave a: job to the tenant, and the
money raised for the repair of the roads went into
the landlord's pocket. A. great grievance also exist-
ed in regard to the nomination of Sheriffs, who were 'I
solely appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, or some
• person under Government. The, appointment of
Magistrates was the next source of grievance. All
these were appointed by the Crown, and many were
unfit for their office. There was another point,
which though last, was not the least, and which, in-
deed, constituted the blackest pan of the picture.—
He alluded to the financial state of Deland, which
was.such as to place the country in a situation of
national b.rukruptcy. The revenues of the century
at this moment were not sufficient for the payment
of the public creditor. Here the Noble Marquis re-
capitulated the debts and revenues of Ireland for
several years, from which he shewed, that for four
or' five years past the debt was continually incressing
• in a proportion much greater then the revenues.—
The deficiency of-revenue to pay the charges during
the year 1815, amounted to £453,00Q; and during
the year 1816 up to the present time, the deficiency
was L9B6,ooo—very near a million. Such was the
financial situation of Ireland; and it vets impossible
for any man to look at it without the most serious
fears, and without feeling the absolute necessity of
entering into an inquiry. If such was not done,
England might retain possession of the Irish soil by ,
tie power of erms, but they would lose all the power
and all the advantages resulting from the% affections
of the Irish people ; and the futon rule of our Go.
Moment in Ireland would be nothing more than a
perpetual effort to prevent rebellion in that ftmetry.,
Such would be theconsequence .if every possible
attention vs:as not now shewn to its inteeests. But
still he would writ to and hope for a more pleasing
prospect. • Let an inquiry take place, let measures
be adopted for ameliorating Ireland in the spirit of
friendly conciliation, and then the people of that
country would reward their Legislators with grati-
tude. If it should be the pleasure of their Lordships
to turn their attention to the grievances of Ireland,
there was no consideration that could give him
greater happiness than the result of that night's
debate. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving
that a Committee be appointed to consider of the
state of Ireland.
The Archbishop of CASHELL replied to some
of the remarks made by the Marquis of Buckingham ,
on the subject of Tithes in Ireland, and said, that
there was no case for the interference of that House
in regard to the Tithes of helium,. The Noble
Marquis was incorrect in one of his statements; for
in the greater part of Ireland there was no tithe paid
for potatoes. It would appear from what the Noble
Marquis said, as it the Clergyman, when he was un-
able to get his tithe from the rich landholder, came
' and took it all from the poor cottager. But this was
not the fut. With respect to the proposed plan of
taking the.tiew from land, he never met any man
who could make up his mind as to the practicability
of such an arrangement.
- • The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM assured the
Right,Rei. Prelate, that he never meant to throw
oil any charge against the Clergy respecting tithes.
What lie ondenpked was, the system of Government
on that particular subject, by which the rich man
WAS frequently exempt front payment, while the
great pressure fell upon the poor cultivators.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it but justice to
-remark, that the Noble Marquis had not made any
• attack upon the Established Church of Ireland. He
himself felt all the importance of this queition in its
fullest extent ; and the Noble Marquis certainly did
introduce it with much temper and moderation ; so
muc:s so, that his speech was more calculated than
any other that be had heard to give effect to any
.plan which might be adopted for the amelioration of
Ireland 'Differing as he did with the Noble Marquis
on many of -his points, he was not insensible to the
tateftsting topics to which he alluded. There was;
- however, a thorough conviction in his mind, that the
to.ject of the. Noble Marquis could not be gained by
the plan he proposed; he objected to the motion, be.
cause, it either meant, that the House should go into
a Committee of the whole House, or appoint aoelect
Contusittee to inquire into the state of Ireland. He
did not conceive that either of these measures would
• .
be desirable. If a general question was referred to
air whole House, there could be no practical good
resulting from it, on account of the differentas of
opinions that must preVail; end, as to a Select Conn. '
mime, he asked, if the House would delegate such a
power to any Committee! If; however, any one par.
ticular case could be made out and referred to m.
quiry, he should have no objection to such an in-
quiry.. He was ready, in a certain extent, to agree
with sh.lioble Marquis that a system. of Govern.

ment radically vicious and bad exitted. hi Ireland.
But although this might have been the original po-
licy in regard to Ireland, he contended that, during
the present reign, every year had been a year of con- ,
cessioa to Ireland on the part of the English Govern.
' ment. Therefore, although the system of Ireland
was originally bad, that was not the system of late
years. He could lay his hand on his heart and say,
that' the anxiety of England of late yea,' was, to
stew favour end indulgence to Ireland on every oc-
casion, and that was the principle the Government
.chiefly ate on last year, when the Coen Laws were
tinder the iscussion of Parliament. He maintained,
of
that during-111e last .50 years Ireland had increased
in prosperky beyond what any other country had
%lone in the same time. Her agriculture bad doubled
in extent, and her commerce had doubled since the
Ilision. He admitted there were some serious evils
in that country which ought to be femoved ; theevils
:which had existed were not to be traced to any ques-
tion of religious dissinctiou, but to the lawless dupe.
sitions of the lower orders ot people. Tnese were
equally hostile to Catholics as well as Protestants.
And on the whole, he felt confident, that it was only
from education and the introduction of good morals
into Ireland, that she could derive real advantages,
'and undergo a change of . manners. At the begin-
ning of the last century, the situation of Scotland was,
worse than that of Iseland, and the manners of her
people had since been all corrected by a good system
of education.—(Rear, hear.)—Here tht Niable Earl
read an extract from Fletcher, e. Sahotaie,.work, in
1698. skewing the disorganised state of Scptland at
that period--that 200,000 beggars were *tattered
over the face of the countrykame half of whom were
vagrants, prone to every vice, and in open violence
with the laws of Goa and map. 'lle Noble Earl
observed, that this state of things was ameliorated by
a properly 4iffused system of education, which was
attended with the most satisfactory result. As to the
Catholic Quession as one of the grievances con.
plained of, be was free to admit, that every privilege
should be conceded consistently with the security of
the Church Establishment. But tl3ere the question
commenced. He was thoroughly convinced that this
was a subject totally. unconnected with the evils of
the country, and that whatever advantage might at-
tend its success, none of them could edict the great i
bulk of the people—the same clamour would still
prevail His first view pf that question *as, with a
view to see what guards could be effected fur the
National Establishineat. Oa a more mature consi-
deration, lie found that nothing could be done, in this
respect, satisfactory to all; and from thence he con-
cluded, that it the principle of Concession were on
this point yielded, the simpler and plainer the terms
were the better, respecting the ulterior arrangement
of the subject. On the question of tithes, %loch stood
in Ireland on a different footing from what they were
in England, he would be willing to listen to any fair
commutation. The Noble Earl also entered on the
subject of the Magisterial and Financial System of
Ireland : the former, be admitted, was open to im-
provement, and the latter would, as soon as possible,
be consolidated into the general turd of the Empire.
The Earl of ROSSLYN was confident that a
good systcns of laws was absolutely necessary in Ire-
land. The Nolsle.Earl, who gave a description of
the corrupt and ertualute state of Scotland in the be-
ginning only last , century should recollect the
~hist-
orical come of these evias.they were produced by
a tyrannical Government that wan ted to Impose a
detested religion on them. Then, in looking at the
return of civil nation, it was proper to see the means
that had been applied for that Purpose. The people
were placed under the care and instruction at their
own pastors, in consequence of which their manners
were changed ; and be was confident if a similar
plan were adopted in Ireland by the removal of reli-
gious disabilities, the vicious habits of tie people
would soon be changed. He was fully convinced,
that the present system of collecting tithes in Ireland
ought to be, done away ; and he believed the revenue
of the clergy would be much better raised tram land.
He bad been in Ireland, and knew that the tithes had
been in most parts taken on potatoes, and, alto.
isether, they were collected in the most oppressive
manna. The Noble Lord had said nothing on the
subject of the appointment of Sheriffs in Ireland ;
but that was a source of great grievance, for it was
how considered a matter of great impOrtauce as well
as favour in Ireland to have the power of nominating
perpetual Sheriffs. This power often rested with
Noblemen a the Sheriff could appoint the Grand
'Juries, and that give rise to a system of partiality, of
jobbing, and of corruption. With respect to the fi--
trances of Ireland, he thought they were a very pro.
per ground for inquiry ; ~nd he was the more con-
vinced of this, since he heard the Noble Lord talk of
a plan for consolidating the revenues of England and
Ireland, because the means of Ireland'ivere • wholly
inadequate to meet any such project. As to the Ca.
tholics of Ireland, he would grant no concession with 1
a view of complying with clamorous persons, burbe-
cause he was confident a fair rational emancipation
would serve more than any other measnre to put
down all agitators and disorderly persons. He had
been for a considerable time in Ireland, and he kneW
the character of the people sufficiently to say, that not
only the higher but the lower orders of the people
were highly sensible of any favour conferred on them,
and that they would gratefully receive ' any boon
offered by Parliament. •
Earl STANHOPE expressed his high approbation
of one expression which was used by the Minister;
that Catholic Emancipation was a simple question's
and he thought the concessions ought not to be gun.
tod with any conditions. The Veto, be contended,
was an unprincipled proposition ; for, to grant eman-
cipation with a Veto, would be an insult. He was
always folly convinced of the utility desiccation ;.
' but the want of edbcation in Ireland was a slight evil
compared to the cruel power exercised by the inter.
mediate landlords, *bo all had the power of clouting
on- the land far their rent, and driving away the
cattle of a poor tenant with whom they never made
any ebntract.
Lord ABERDEEN could not see any necessity
for an inquiry. He admitted the existence of almost
'all the evils that prevailed in Ireland ; and there was
a very material one which had not been noticed, but
19, which sage remedy ought tb be devised;.--he
meant the imperfect state of the distillery laws, in
consequence of which suniggling was now carried on
to the most enormous extent. The Catholic question
was one which tcquired an iniMpluile.Olusigtioet""'

.

removal
of
efifedisasawhiiintietießi.jurhyu.tl:k
aetlythteomargnis: ftriemme, tlhuee
think it would' produce the effezt so much dwelt upon
by Noble Lords.
The Earl of DARNLEY concurred in opinion
with the Noble Lord who had last spoken, as io the'
vices which were fostered by the distillery laws in
Ireland. Although many persons might be rather
I too sanguine in their expectations of whez might be
the result of the deliberations of Parliament, yet still
the distress of the country was of such a 'nature as to
induce their Lordships to entertain the proposition.—
He warconvinced that nothing would tend so much
to restore tranquillity to Ireland, as setting to rest
thvquestion of Catholic Emancipation. That boon,
so much desired by the Catholics of Ireland, and so
necessaty for the welfare of the empire at large, war
founded on the immutable principles of justice,. and
mtitlsgheevEenatrulalyeltnb be 1 granted.
s sim
G
TON observed, that the
Catholic question was not applicable to Ireland alone,
but when introduced into the House must be treated
as embracing also the Roman Catholics • of England.
The distresses of Ireland could not, by any possibi-
lity, be traced to that question. He complimented
the Clergy of 'lreland, particularly the Bench of
Bishops; and declared that• the tithes were levied in
that country in a manner as little distressing as pos-
sible. He did not think that a commutation of tithes
would be attended with any advantage.' He stated,
that in /rebind much disadvantage arose from there
being severs! trading Magistrates, who held :hefts for
justice, and sold it at sixpence or a shilling a-head.—
He thought the present distillery laws should be re-
pealed, the whole system was oppressefre, and could
never be effective, as the last character as Irishman
would adopt was that of as informer. In conse-
quence, ninety-nine innocent persons -paid for one
guilty. But to think of preventing the Irish from
drinking whiskey, was altogether out of the question.
He agreed with the Noble Marquis, that the system,
of Grand Jury presentments was extremely disgrace.
ful, and one merely of jobbing. on the principle of—
's give me one toad and I'll give you another." He
thought the Hearth Money Tax requited revision, and ,
. thaethe rich should pay instead of the poor. •
Lord REDESDALE, looking to the origin of the
connection of Ireland with this country, conceived it
should be Welted upon as a conquered country. He
however used this expression in no other sense than
he would use it when speaking of the Norman con-
quest of England. He-lamented, however, that si-
milar measures had not been adopted with respect to
both countries;. ler while England was conciliated
'by her conquerors, Ireland still continued to be 'go-
verned by the same mean as the acquisition had been
*made; the conaequence was that Ireland had ever been
disobedient to the law. This opinion had been asser-
ted in the days of James, by Sir Juhn Davis, the At-
torney General. The defect had arisen from the im-
perfect mode of educcien which uniformly prevailed
in that country, from the highest to the lowest, and
so little obedience did the peasantever enact from his
sou, until he had arrived at an advanced age, that it
was customary tor the tether to knock dawn his son to
compel him to work—(u laugh.) He entered into a
representation of the state et Ireland in the earliest
times, when the country was divided into different
septs, and observed, that the expulsion of all the old
Irish families from their hereditary possessions had
embittered the minds of the people, who often fan-
cied that they were working on the lands that should
belong to them. He related an anecdote trs prove
the extreme pride felt by the Irish with respect to
their ancient families. When the Earl if Shelburne
was spoken of at the table of an 'lrish gentlenian,
some persons present spoke of the Noble Earl with
the greatest contempt, saying, " This fellow is rot
fit to sit at table *thus.' Being told that the' Earl
was of the family of Pima:am-Ice ..16 Fitztuaturice !"
said they ; " who . are the Fitemaurices I Fellows
that came in with Stlonghow !"—(a &ugh.) He
thought the only means of overcoming those preju-
dices was by an improved system. of education, and
thought a Committeualtogether unnecessary:. The
people of Ireland should be taught to look to the
Magistracy of the country, and Snot to the Military,
for protection. The-people had no desire to obey
the laws; and it was useless, without the conciir-
rence of the whole nation, to hope that the Govern-
meat can effect a perfect obedience. Tn some cases,
their prejudices, arising even from a good cause, ope-
rate to prevent it.
The Earl of CARNA RVON. observed, that were
it not for a few phrases that fell from the Noble
Lords who bad spoken on the opposite side, horn
which he collected their intention of objecting to the
motion, he would have conceived their speeches ai
affording the strongest arguments in favour of it : one
Noble Lord said that the House should*not entertain
an inquiry, because they knew not the result; but.
had the result been known, would not that same No-
ble Lord have esteemed it foolish to undertake an in-
quiry as unnecessary ? Another observed, that they
should not proceed in a labour of which they could
not know the termination ; so that, as the House
did not know the ceaclusion, they should not have
a commencement. He commented fariher on the

arguments of the Noble Lurds..and thought they,
superadded reasons that almost proved his Noble
' Friend's case a weak one, when compared with
theirs. He therefore prayed the House to enter with
vigour to au enquiry, esteeming all individual propo.
sitions• as nugatory.
The Earl of ST. GERMAINS thought that no
case bad been made out to justify the appointment a
i Committee.

Lord HOLLAND despaired of entertaining their
Lordships by.a history of Henry the Second, or by
any recent anecdotes of the state of Ireland. No
subject demanded so strongly the attention of Parlia-
4ent as. did the state of Ireland ; and if be felt that
I opinion before entering the House, he must be more
firmly impressed with it after hearing the arguments
of the Noble and Learned Lords opposite. They all
agreed that the state of Ireland was one of catmint
distreu, but differing in the causes and the remedies
of that situation, they still refused to enter into an in.
lquiry, *here alone they-might be discovered. They
bad united Wand to this country by force, and pro-
mised to inqdre into the grievances of that unhappy
nation ; kat now, after a lapse of sixteen years, they
refused so consider the nature of her government and
the mtancot redress. The Learned Lord bad as.
sertqcl education to In the only remedy of the dis-
tromes,iik Ireland ; but it would- seem-from what be.

had also stated, that historical knotslacte
groat sourer of their irritation—the peopleof
must first be taught to forget the Mawr,
country and the invasion of Strongly.w (fie,,
An inquiry would at. 1.-ast shew the inteinior
liament to examine and to redress. • The Nf
commented with great force and httm..er
feet of the system of tithes, which Lad be..n
ted as forming a close reh.tion between
and the People. 66 Truly," s rid the Nu?
,s taking away the tenth part of a mans
ground must conciliate him very mach, et,
very closely the peasant and the parson."... (4,,,,‘,4:1
As an act of justice, wisdom, and policy, ae.4.4:
all, as an act of grace to the people of he
prayed the House not to reject the propositiun ni
Noble Friend.
Lord GRENVILLE enforced the absolute ape.s.,
city of an inquiry into the state of Ireland
• tie
House was placed in a situation of extreme in,p,A ,rt.
ance; they were not to legislate for Enifnmilrna.iy
boot for the whole empire, of which Ireland tnrnied:
considerable portion; and certainly no part (If the
empire had so positive a right to demand an :aquirs,
into the grievances that affect her, as every f„ „t cf
the soil of that country. Why did Patliarneit 403
to govern Ireland, if it was not to sec.ne i,;.;
piness and • unless they discharged that tr.
usurped a power to which they couli si.ea•
A cause of inquiry had been fully made
been shewn that Ireland was in a t,PIT tLi;.l
the presence of an army Bauble tf.e ~t a„y
formerly employed there—that justice i;al tin; t,.„1
executed there, and chit its very so.:rre had ten
polluted in the mode of eiceting S: iff
A!lk. 13
the Magistracy—that the system of Tithes Kest'
not upon the landowner of occupier, but es, the 1.,
bourer, and was the operative cause of wiry rot the
evils ; and yet, with these assertions, so mad- and so
,supported, it was still denied that an inquiry sheu'la
be instituted. The Noble Lord was not satviae
enough to Imp that an allowance of the ed.:Lilt
Claims would of itself allay at present the agiLitions
of Ireland, but there was a time when much gond
would have resulted from such measure. 'These
times were gone, and vain was the hope of dia.:7,
to tecal the consequences of the refusal; btu the
House might still arrest the progress of evil, and pre.
vent what must be the result of the present system ni
misgovernment—..the total separation of the two
countries, which GOD and Nature had iaseparabry
united. No man could seriously think that Ireland
ought to he left in its present state. No, the prin.
ciple of shutting out the view of that country cotal
.not longer be pursued. The next question as, it
what course the remedy should be applied? !it
thought iL better to consider the whole ite
view, for every part was associated ui:h aonC;er.—
Specific propositions were wholly unavailing;
the entire system was wrong, where every Iri.l-.;
seemed equally affected, where should the remedies
be first applied ? The Noble Lord proceNle.l vrirti
gteat clog rence to en! orce positing, eineladeil
by Ovine, his hearty concurrence to t.'le
of his Noble

Lord SIDMOU 1 H objected to the motion, as
tendini; agg:ivate the grievances cAnpiatte:f
Those grievanc,l arose principally from want
dustry and scant of kqmvlidge, to %rbich mt:ethtt
had been already applied, that might be errrred
operate in time. The agricultur::l &saws r
Cher came. He then took a review of t).lc sti:e
the Catholic Question, an,l Ti:he 3y f 79,1, v.: i
he inferred, that nothing sati,lactcry coul,: be :1...LC
•at present.
Lord HOLLAND explainzd.
Atter a short reply from the Marquis of BUN.
INGIIAM the House divided, when there aucatc,f,
For the titution---Preient 2tii
Pruaies 41
Against it Precut 6H ,„,
I';(lxics t;9l
apingt the moaun -- 70.
Adjourned at f.L4ll.past Oar.
1101 3E Of COMMONS.

A Petition was brou,dit up from the inntilsolskri andhenete
of Kern, calling Pee attention tit the House to tat
'heiress, and praying particinarly against the 'lithing System
Ordered to be reierred to the Agrfetiltitrid Coninettee.
Mr. H. ADDINGTON brought up Pates re :Jive to the
ries of the Secretary of Statie's Ottice.—Laid on tee l'ehis.
Sir K. PEEL gave notice of a motiou tor tile epiestealoit of a
Select Committee to inquire into the state of the yen. g pett..ks
employed in the Cotton ft lastufactories.
I.urd I.A.iCELLES brought up a Petition from tesee,
field, and Doncaster, agsinst the impost:ion of a Duty. his karc•
seed--Laid on the table.
Mr. GI ('PS asked leave to bring in a Bill to enable
traces to a;.poiet I)istrict Surveyors of Highways.
Ale Cl. R%l N had hoped that 'lichen account wen!.l be lilJ.it
euc as rotrid justify the appointment, for he coesidered that eel
Surveyors would have coo great a power in general.
Mr. 5. I.h.FEVRE did not consider the Sin vefors neeepary,
and thought that it would be cresting a great Untirceseary espeer.
Mr. GII'L'S thought that it would be little or Ito sildeieui
eapeese, as that was prtileipally occasioned by the bad sea esf
the Rued+. There was little or no additunia! power tic.,
the measere.
After some farther observations front Mr. SWEI cud h"te
(Letts, leave was given, and the Bill brought up mid reel a
first time.
The ',ALT. AKER recommended that the 1311 might be fell a
second time shortly, sent round the COLIIIIIy, and coneuittedotel
the blanks fitted tip after the recess.
Mr. 011' L'S agreed w the proposal; and the BM was
to be read a second time to murnw.
Mr. 011APLINmuved for leave to bring in a Mil to red
anAct of las: Session for the assessment of County it.:ree—ie''
was given, the Bill brought tee, read a first tune, al.sl urderel
be reale second time tit-morrow.
eteccral K. PERCH tfoiON brought up a Pe:iinn teem
Fartrier, Soeigty of Kinross., the attention ut tat. Howie
the Agrfatlttisal 1/ieticse—Laid on the Table.
Mr. Al moved for a Return ut Wine, Stall, :::11
Beer i.icen. es, ions the rth of July list to the present lave'
Ordered.
Sir J. SHAW. brought up a Petition from the Vier! of Crt`
plegatc, against extravagance, and in favour of econealf :nd
trenchtneot in every tiepartment of the State.. The Putitesen
did rot/ Le said, wish. for the abolition of useful offices, bu ugh
as were use:esti. sits enialements.—Laid on the •fab:e.
Mr. \V. SM; brveght up a Petition from Inverness ~g.nest
particular du •s pressed oppressively ou
, Ls& the .1 otsle.
Mr. ROSE bad Lederstood that the House had a desire to fee
the revellers te the Navy Estimates, which came under the b.:21
of the Contieg‘.ecies, which he had directed to be made out. be.
ktlght Hon. Member then moved, that the accounts be IA
before the House.—Ordered.
On the mottos to read the Nl'e!ghts and Measures Eiu a third
time, Mr. V. FITZGEAALD gave notice, that he should sub
mit a propotition to extend the Bail to Ireland.—The lilt lea
reads third time and passed, alteetwo clauses had been added
.._
Sir C. POLE made some observstions on the propriety u!r.
°dash); Clerks who had been employed Lis particular °flees in
preparing public.accounts.
' he bad fdi ul
Mr. FLOSE said, that when he came Into °Ewe,
the amains of the Victualling Once teu years in Nees', ` °
,
dig extra dart. had begi employed. '1 hey 114 GO* 1ee4241"
.nri

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pm. I
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on 'hr ff.
rep.eb,„.
he Cnicc4 3
,bte Lore,,
a
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and p