Star.
London, England, 1816-03-23 00:00:00

PARLWIRIti ARr PROCEEDINGS.

•,
HOUSE OR LORDS, MARCH 21.
Counsel were. finally heard on the Irish cause of 1 Coklongh
et. Rodgers "—Judgment postponed
The Earl of MINT° (the law Earl. his father, not having taken
his seat as such) was introduced with the accustomed formalities,
sworn, and took H. sear. His Lordship's supporters were the
Furls of Su.sevelauav and litosst.eis.
The Role Assent was declared by Commission to the Eleven
Million" Exchequer Bills, the two Mutiny Bills, the Cape of
nose! -Hope Trade, the Foreign Packets. and the Clergy Rept-
stew Bills.
The Lords Commissioners were, the LAID CNAllestLoa and
the Dols of Hultatint tor and SmailTallatiev,
An adjournment during pleasure then took place; about Eve
o'clock the House resumed.
Two Private Blue were brought up from the Commons by
Lord LA2011.1111 and others, and read a first time.
Thy Earl of DERBY presentetl a Petition from the Merchants,
Mann!aeturers, and others of the Town and neighbourhood of
Manchester. praying for the absolute Repeal of the two insolvent
Debtors' Bills.—Ordered to 1W on the Wile.
FINANCIAL CoNSIDERATIONS.
The Earl of ROSSLYN presented a Petition from
the Borough of Dysart, in Scotland, against the re-
vival of the Property Tax—a large Military Esta-
bliahment—and for an economical reform in the Ex-
penditure.
Lord GRENVILLE said, he had a Petition to
present to their Lordships, which, among other
points, respected a measure, which, he had the heart.
telt satisfaction to find, bad been, since the-voting of
the Petition, done away with. On this head, he
could not avoid declaring, that in his own sincere
judgment, the discontinuance of the Property Tax,
and the remission of the war duties on Malt, were
measures that would be found not less beneficial to
the collection of the revenue, than productive, of pre-
sent relief to all classes of the community. He could
not avoid' expressing his hope that these advActages
to the people would he still farther extended, by at-
tempts at least, to make every possible reduction in
the large amount of the military force, as proposed
by Minis' -s to Parliament. This was expressly
prayed for by the Petitioners whose application he
was about to present ; which he accordingly dad ; it
was from the county of Denbig ; and, besides the
subject adverted to by the Noble Lord, it touched
upon the present depressed state of agriculture, and
other relevant topics.
fine Earl of DERBY said, he had a Petition on
the same subject to present to their Lordships, hut
there were certainly sonic shades of difference in the
views taken of the subjects by the respective Peti-
tions. It was from the town and neighbourhood of
M inchester, and the Noble Earl detailed certain cir-
cumstances which attended the Meeting at which the
Petition was voted. It was. though not numerously,
yet, as he could assure the House,vespectably signed,
and to insure which object, a sheet which contained
several hundred names which were not deemed so,
was detached from the Petition. On its being read,
the prominent feature seemed to refer to the adop-
tion of a system of strict economy and retrenchment,
as recommended in the Speech from the Throne, at
• the commencement of the Session.
The above Petitions were severally ordered to 11-
on the table.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE took tl.e oppor-
tunity to say a few words, as to the means which it
may be necessary to apply to in lieu of the Tax which
had been rejected, and with a view to the security and
permanence of the real and permanent relief of the
country in a time of peace, from the burthen of ex-
cessive taxation. It was most important that the
people of this country should feel and know, and lie
was sure his Majesty's Ministers must feel and know,
that the financial difficulties of the country were not
thereby renewed. It was of importance it should be
known, that in consequence of the rejection of that
measure, that Parliament must have recourse to some
other means of finance. The raising money by loans
in time of peace, was a measure liable to great and
important objections. After Parliament thought fit
to reject the measure of the Property Tax, it was of
importance, should it then be proper to revert to the
means ofd loan, that the amount of such loan or
loans should be kept down as low as possible. He
was aware of the great importance, in the present
situation of the country, that the money market
should be eased; and if loans were determined upon,
one of the best ways of doing that would be to keep
down their amount as much as possible. Keeping
this in view, also, they would have to review the
Peace Expenditure of 29 millions, which had been
partly voted by Parliament, though it was still sub-
ject to the review of that' Assembly and of the Go-
vernment. A loan system in time of peace should at
any rate be limited to a certain term of duration, and'
he feared the dangerous facility by which, in time of
war, money was raised in that way; often led to un-
necessary expenses. If the same facility should sib-
taiu in time of peace, the same consequences may be
expected ; a perseverance in such a system would
eventually lead to a recurrence of those very evils
from which the country had temporarily escaped. HE
•Nould not then enter into any discussion of these
topics. hut could nut avoid the opportunity of calling
the serious attention of Ministers to the subject,
though he could not but believe them fully sensible
of the difficulties of our present situation, and trusted
that attention would not only be directed to the
amount of the loans, but to an effectual reform in the
public expenditure, as he, in his conscience, believed,
that upon a due attention to the important point of
economy, the present safety of the country would
essentially depend.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it necessary to
say a few words in consequence of what had fallen
from the Noble Lord. The principle of the admo-
nition given was never out of the anxious considera-
tion of, his Majesty's Government, as applicable to
either course which Parliament. might adopt, whe-
ther with reference to a continuance ef the Property
Tax, or whether by its rejection it became unavoid-
able, through its rejection, to have recourse, under
the circumstances, to the measure of a loan. • What-
ever system of finance may be thought most advis-
aale by the Executive Government, it must be
f ,unded on this principle, namely, that the establish-
ments of the country should not be greater than the
exigencies of its situation required.—(Hear, hear.)—
Upoo that principle alone it was that the establish-
ments proposed to Parliament Were founded. He
could assure the Noble Marquis, that if any one
person in that House, or in the country, felt more
tnan another, as to its present situation, it was him-
self. Wilk respect to the measure of a Lon in time

, .
of Peace, it had certainly been the object of his Ma-
jestyrs Government to have adopted a system, for a
certain period at least, which would preclude the
necessity of going into the market to raise money by
way of loan, a system which, in their judgment,
would have been the most likely to have relieved the
actual distresses of the country. Two modes were
the most obvious—either by continuing partially the
Property Tax in the view of upholding public credit,
and thereby operatinf upon the money market in a
way that would inspire general confidence ; or by
that mode which the relinquishment of that measure
had rendered necessary, and which was adverted to.
Of these it was his firm conviction and opinion, that
the former course of proceeding was the more likely
to telieve the distresses of the country, and the more
likely to contribute, in an economical point of view,
to the real interests of the country. With respect to
the amount of a Lean, whether of six pr of eight
millions, as a question of expediency, he did not
conceive that such a statement had come from any
quarter. The difference of amount, with a reference
to circumstances, may become a fair question, but
net of an importance compared to that of the diffe-
rence in the systems of finance to which he had al.
luded, and he had no hesitation again to answer,
were the question put to him, that the mode of pro-
ceeding with reference to the Property Tax, was
decidedly the most desirable in the way of affording
relief. Upon that ground alone the distinction had
been made, and he could assure the House, whatevet
expedient for raising the sums necessary may be
adopted, he considered it a duty equally imperious
upon Government and upon Parliament, to fix the
Establishments of the country in that way, and on
those principles, which the interests of the country
lequired, taking care, at the same time, not to make
them more extensive than the necessity of the case
calle4 tor.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE was of opinion
that some distinct pledge should be required, not
only as to the amount, but to the duration of time
which the Loan system should be acted upon. Un-
less this was insisted upon, and unless the whole sub-
ject to which they referred was not thoroughly in-
eestigrted by A Committee of Parliament, he would
say that the finances ot- the country were not safe
from ruin. He differed widely from the Noble Earl
as to the alternative adverted to, as it was his belief
that if Ministers had succeeded in their financial
project, it must have ended in the ruin of the com-
ity. His Lordship then adverted to the effect which
the paper circulation had upon the present financial
situation of the country, and said that no Minister
could safely undertake to raise public credit, either
by the Sinking Fund or any other expedient, unless
he could Ex the standard of payments. Viewing
this part oi his subject somewhat in detail, he ex-
pressed , • opinion, that it was the misfortune of the
cow that it had not at some time fully felt the
pres,„ . - of taxation, as then it could never have been
~,•.snt into a situation such as the present ; and he
ty sated his conviction, that if a series of Loans, in
A time rat peace, were given into, until the necessity
of such a system were proved before a Committee of
Parliament, as well as the whole system of finance,
the consequences would be most alarming. And he
had to implore tke Noble Lords seriously to consider
the duty they owed to their country in those respects,
and to place before the pablic the real state of the
country, so that every man in the country may be'
thoroughly apprised of it. Such a system was
adopted with the most beneficial consequences, in
the years 1786 and 1792, as well as at subsequent
periods.
The Earl of EGREMONT presented a Petition
from the County of York, respecting the Financial
and Agricultural situation of the country; on which,
as well as un certain circumstances attending the
voting of the Petition, his Lordship made some ob-
servations, is which he seemed to consider the appli-
cation of the Sinking Fund to any other purpose
than that of its original destination, a very question-
' able expedient. The Petition being read, it appear-
ed the agricultural situation of the country was
complained of, as well as' the establishment of a
large Standing Army in time of Peace, praying that
a constitutional reduction may be made therein.—
Ordered.

Viscount MELVILLE presented a Petition from
the City of Edinburgh against the continuance of
the Property Tax, and a large Military Establish-
ment in time of Peace. He would take this oppor-
tunity to refute, from a document in his possession,
what was stated on a former evening by a Noble
Baron, respecting the way in which the Income Tax
was paid in Scotland, and the proportion which it
bore to other taxes in a particular city. The Noble
Viscount then stated, that the Tax on inhabited
houses in Glasgow exceeded by very little the sum
of di10;000, whereas the amount of the Property
Tax exceeded considerably the sum of £82,000.
Lord HOLLAND explained, that what he had
stated was merely as a rumour that had reached his
ears. He had heard that a Petition for the conti-
nuance of the Income Tax had come from that city,
from which he drew perhaps a hasty but natural in.
ference, that its inhabitants did not pay much of it,
but he was happy to find that the people of Glasgoe
had contributed their due share.--(A largh).
The Marquis of LANSDOWN stated, he had to
give notice, on the part of a Noble Marquis, that he
intended shortly to submit a motion to the House on
the subject of the State of Ireland. He should now
move for a summons, as his Noble Friend, perhaps,
would very soon specify the day.

SLAVE ?&ADL

Lord GRENVILLE rose to bring forward his
promised Motion on this •subject ; but before he en-
tered upon it, he begged to call the attention of the
House to a different topic, and which he deemed of
borne importance. The Noble Lord then adverted
to the mode (from which great inconvenience was
experienced) in which the accounts or reports sent
home from the different Presidencies in India, in
which the statements of what concerned the political
and commercial concerns of the Company were so
blended and confused, that it was impossible ade-
quately to distinguish them, or to say, when settle-
ments came to be made, what their commercial
loins may be. He recurred to some of the relevant
provisions in the Act, which, in those respects, seem-
ed impossible of being carried into effect. He ob-
served this from no suspicion that any neglect bad
taken place, but from a wish to know whether it was
the real fact that these provisions could not be cow

early open day. being forward a motion
• and of
plied with I and in this view he should* on some
which, h' trusted, w! at he now said would be deem-
ed a sufficient notice. The Noble Earl then pro
opeduweeoefilds Motion. He
itHh ehimh(:pethdatthitat‘‘a,alsl
ceedegitheir Ltoorefil:ftiri
ps shouldd
donenow
mcPartlref fhorbtyloa irhhadeheirg the
'AiC
documentsirealb:l7lini,h.ing'riuieleivirl'illici-rislarddhe‘heiin Slaves by
importation into the Colonies from Africa, and by
this means hid the foundation of all further mea-
sures on that subject. His abject now was, to brii:g
before the House such information as-could be pin
cured relative to the effect of this measure on the
commercial interests of the West Indies, and on the
condition of that unhappy race of beings for whose
benefit it was chiefly designed. It was highly de-
sirable now that their Lordships should learn whe-
ther the predictions of those who augured only evil
from the measure had been verified, or whether the
more sanguine hopes of those who had viewed the
matter in a very different light had not been fulfilled;
and whether the most important benefits had not re-
sulted from it, no: only to the cause of humanity,
but even to she agricuitural and commercial interests
of the West Indies. Perhaps their Lordships might
think, that when Parliament was overwhelmed wito
other business of the highest consequence, it was not
expedient to be calling for Pavers merely to gratify
curiosity: but his orotion was also intended for a
practical purpose. 'llofir Lordships had indeed
great good by preventing importati,ins of Slaves
from Africa, but they had not done the whole of
their duty. He did not wish at present to raise any
question on the subject of legislative interference with
the internal concerns of the Colonies : but as to ti:e
abstract right of the British Parliament to interfere,
he considered it as perfectly clear on every ground,
both of principle and of practice, ever since the Co-
lonies had been settled. The only qualification of
this right was in the raising of the Colonial revenue:
but even. that right of exemption from the controul
of the British Parliament, rested on an Act of that
Parliament, which therefore might, like any other
Act, be repealed by the authority by which it had
been passed. But while he asserted that right in its
broadest extent, no one could be more anxious toi
avoid all undue and vexatious or captious interfe-
rence in practice : no one could be more disposed to
continue to the Colonies every advantage which by
custom and usage they enjoyed. Their Lordships
could not but fe,l that there was, in the circumstances
of our Colonial policy, one subject on which the
House had alieady declared itself—one subject on
which it hoard the concurrent voice of humanity. and
justice—one subject on whi:h it had received the
congratulations of the country and of all good men
—the amelioration of the condition of Slavery by
the abolition ' the Slave Trade. We had in our
West India Islands more than half a million of per-
sons placed in a situation in which no British subject
was placed—in a situation where their happiness lay
at the disposal of other4to an extent not experienced
by the subjects of any other State—to an extent not
felt by the lowest class in this country—out placed
there b 7 the permission of our laws, arid under the
sanction of the Ltgit.latute. Though their condition
was such as called loudly for relief, and appealed to
the interference of human:ty, it was c implicated
with such circumstances, that the intended relief-and
interference, if tic: wisely administered, might not
only endanger the lives and properties of tlio,e
held them in bondage, but the existenceF and safety
of these unfortunate beings themselves. &pressing,
therefore, a hope and desire that, ts society improved,
their condition might be gradually ameliorated—that
they might gradually rise into a state of greater con-
sideration, and arrive at the enjoyment of those
rights and liberties which were enjoyed by the least
favoured classes--those classes that partook of the
smallest portion of freedom—we should consider
what could be dune to secure their protection, and
to accelerate their improvement. We owed it to our
own character, to our own consistencn to take care
of the interests of a people whom we had already
manifested such a desire of protecting, and for the
bettering of whose condition the Legislature of this
country had proceeded so far. There should, how-
ever, be no precipitation in the enactments to be
made : he wished the House to view the subject with
a full sense of its difficulty and importance. It it
was true that protection ought to be extended to the
black population of our Colonies—if it were mer-
ciful to endeavour an amelioration of their state,
it should be considered how our humanity could
be most effectually exercised, and how we could
guard against evil while we attempted to do good.
He had no hesitation in saying, that the first step in
this great work *as the prevention of any accession
to the numbers already in slavery by fresh importa-
tion—or, in other words, the complete execution of
the abolition act. He always looked to regulations
as theconsequence of abolition, and not to abolition
as the consequence of regulation. The British Par-
liament had lent its sanction to the great and glo-
rious measure of complete abolition of the trade—it-
now behoved it to enact such regulations, or to en-
force those already enacted, in such a manner as
would render any further exercise of it impossible.—
The first object of the abolition was, to cut off !lie
chance of fresh supply—to guard against any new
sacrifice of human liberty—to prevent the accumula-
tion of misery, and by those means to raise the value
and to ameliorate the condition of those who had pre-
viously been imported as slaves, or reduced to _that
degrading condition in our colonies. 'rile Noble
Baron here expressed his satisfaction at the extent
to which the hopes of the abolitionists were already
accomplished, or in a progressive state of accom-
plishment. He was happy to have the testimony in
favour of the results -of the abolition—not of the
ftiends of the measure, not of those who advanced it
with all their endeavours, not of those who looked
forward to its attainment as the object of their %%idles
and exertions—but, of these who at first opposed it,
or who looked upon its accomplishment as a very
equivocal advantage, and who had only surrendered
their opinions to the evidence of facts and expe-
rience. He ivas happy. in short, to have the tests-
' mbny ()fits enemies. in favour of the great good it
had produced. Its effects.in ameliorating the condi-
tion of the existing slaves, in producing a' gradual
improvement in the relations of the two kinds of po-
pulation. and conducing to the permanent smutty
and tranquillity of our colonial possessions, had nearly
fulfilled the anticipations and predictions of its advo-

eater, and agreeably dlsappolfil
ponents. Thus enc'n►raged '
former labours in the cause

proceed with greatercourage
p.4rt iii our duty which still i
greater confidence on the
object. He felt convinced that
tifarious and glorious fruits of
act of the abolition, it cartic

by auxiliary tegulatiolis—than
the mass of slavery, vid pre,
misery, buc would ultimatel

a contrary system had, engert
the great change which the fr
manity anticipated. Our fir
tertained these hopes, hhOUld

surer 215 W0U.4.1 ascertain to di

of the aboh,i.m, and !hew w!

effects Anticipated, in incre;+!
as improv:;og the condition

t thcre w•.,s ouch an iacte.tse

that increase was proved to

the real p:inciple of the
evasion, then it w,,uld he it
those win) west• friendly to

perceive the he ,efits of wise
If, on the other hand, there
this inc-ease, and if the hopes mists were
to be eieippoineed, it werild be still more fevettor
keow to evlixt that disippointment was °wile
%VI; er it proceedret (rum the evesionot the 6117."
it the law WAS not eveded, whether there wereite,t4.
pecuiiar circumstances connected welt es •
°
that prevented it Iron producing ad the good
which its t. ndency was directed If the lee easy
as he hoped it would be, enforced with proper dm,
and with the desire of producing the greatest pod,
its execution should be watched in every plete,
every establishment, in the smallest as well as the
largest the Government, the House, and the
Country, resting convinced that the measure could
only be useful when it was to iversaliy molted,-
If there Was in the whole of cur colonies one point
neglected—if there was one inlet to fresh supphesue.
guarded—if the Law of the Abolition were in the
slightest degree evaded, no advantage could remit
from its operation. All the evils of slavery veiled
be again felt—fresh importation, Iresh suffeergs,
fresh horrors, fresh mortality, would be again espe.
rienced.. The Abolition Act, he thought, might be
made completely effective, and the recurrence ot all
these evils prevented by a Bill which he would earo.
duce, for the Registration of Slaves in cur Celenes. ,
Such a register would not only slew the incleese or
the decrease of the black population in their num.
hers, but would ascertain such facts AS lIUMbel4 Alone
could not furnish. Supposing an increabe, it was evi.
dent that the simple tact mient be explained in two
ways; either heel tresh importation by an evetiunot
the law, or Irma n.ttive procreation. The register
would ascertain which-of these was the case. It 4
down existed of the evasion of the law, the register
wutile thew when i: took puler, and the cutter if the
perscn unjustly reduced to slavery would be piry a.
ted from rcapiitg the huh' of his iejustice and iheich
of duty. An objection might be suggested to such
a measure, that such a law would be equivelee te a
penal statute. He could n tinder:it:old the applies.
two of a penal law to w huh: comnitopt;es. buck
law as he proposed would n.,t be a leraal, but wily a
preventive law : its object was to prevent crimes, not
Ito Punish them ; it di.i not r-quite. a proof tit ;trait
conitnissi,4l to justify its enactment, but a probehay
that they would be committed. l'ne Nobie Berea
begged tee House to remember, that tale-. L. e met.
sure of tie abolition was before their Lin:tepee it
was'alleged against its pasing, that it would be to.
tally ineffective; that no law could pier era the im.
pot tation of slaves clandestinely, it the open trade
were prohibited; and that all the povver of G %%tn.
went could not prevent smuggling after the lawful
traffic was ended. Such reasonings anu avowals sere
sufficient to excite the jealousy of :he friends to the
Abolition, and to induce them to secure ies execution
by every auxiliary enactment, like the present.—
It would be-to shut our eyes to what was happening
or had happened—to what had taken place or would
take place—not to adopt provisions similar to thaw
implied in the registration. He rested its necessity
on the impossibility of any other precaution prnducinc
the wished for effect. In the greet Areeepelago of
.Islands where our possessions lay, it would be pied.
cable, under any system of vigilance arid precautien,
to import slaves twin one is'.and to another. Now
the peace was established, the twenties of smuggling
would be incalculably increases!. During tee wet
the danger of clandestine imprrtation was ereater
than now, because there were mote of the islinds
under our dominion (and he was of opinion that we
had still too many I, and consequently a tire.tter es.
tent of the Eur 'pe.tn colonies sui!,ject to our I iws.
Although we might prevent importation from Atkas
we could not so easily shut our Vossessions ap.nst
fresh supply from the colonies ut our treighb.aut
the same Archipelago. Secencily, during war our
vessels exercised .4 of se:rrch which trey ‘voutti
nut now be justified in claiming. If a ship were
ceeding to the colony of any friendly power, we lied
now no right to stop it, though in a short [inn
its cargo might be landed on our own pi:lutetium
There were two powers in Europe that had not g:ven
any pledge of a desire to discontinue this nefarious
tradic, and there were free ports in the ‘S'est
far discharging their cargoes. He would not trouble
the House at any greater leng;11 on the subj
though, by referring to our lately acqiiirce reseseions-
on the coast of South America, there reiget be Adele
tional arguments found for the meetute he was re•
commending. The next point to be adverted to, W 44
the source- whence the necessary reguletion thong
originate. It should emanate from the British Nate
!lament, and should not be left to the discretion ol
the local legislatures. The British Parliament not"
proceed to the consideration of woat was just and ex.
pedient, disregarding prejudice, and observing a dig.
niti.:d moderation. It the object could have been
attained without our interfetencr, he wa. willing to
allow that our interference should rot have been
;nested. The legislative authorities for the Mil'
c.ispirt• should only offer to (Humiliate measures, when
it was proved that by no Other mode they could be
enact( d. For the purpose of put mg the How in
possession of the information requ eto the discus*
scan and due consideration of the Bill which he pro'
posed to introduce, he would now move, pursuant
notice, that there be leidirelere the House copiesttud

ented the fof its gyp;
d by the suet es; of
of human; y, we ;night
to theperfornt ince 14 ON
remained, and rely wit
final ittaiiiment.ot per
at such would be the muL
of this one great political
ied into complete effect F
lat it would not only limit
ncrent the a^cessi n of
ly remedy the evils which
mitred, and terminate itt "
friends of liberty aid hu.
first object, while we es. 1
d be to provide such ineop
demonstration the results
whether it produce: Mt
the at well
Of the black p tpulatioo,
se as was predictci, zad
result from the opertio4
I.tw, and wit bona its
[atifying to the feehtS Of
it, and matikind
legislative Intel/atom
it
had been any chetit cie es of the abolitionist. N