Star.
London, England, 1819-07-07 00:00:00

Old Bailey; • especially the Clerk of the Ar.
;,,gns, and by the Clerks of the various Police Ofices,
who have the best possible opportunity of knowing
the facts. The last declared to the Committee, that
it is a frequent, and almost an invariable question to
tl:em, on the part of those who suffer from the com-
mission of crimes, " Is it a hanging matter ? Can
rou not reduce it below forty shillings ?" The Oth-
iers of the Old Bailey stated in their testimony, that
3 number of Bills found by the Grand Jury are not
rosecuted on account the repugnance of those
rho ought to tie the prosecutors, to the idea of els-
e .nge:lng the life of a fellow-creature. From an-
coler class of individuals—the Traders of London
d Wettnii;:ster—the Committee received the most
Ical.satisractory information. I most say,
i• : lortant and satisfactory, not only as

:Host rani,...
: Vliet'S the present object, proceeding as it does
who are the near and constant observers of
~ci;c::mstances connected with it, but thatit is most
r-rr r 1; and satiifactory as displaying a sound
Intel-
:1!1:1 a feeling of morality in that valuable part
community, which, with all my previous respect
~;., own I was not so sanguine as to anticipate.—
I„ Lot li,,itate to declare, that in my opinion, the
of that description examined before the
Tanifested as great a degree of good
, ;I: 11:::ch conscientious consideration, sincl as
huumanity as could be found in an equal num-
.2: (1 nica taken from any station whatever in so.-
Ihev chewed a reluctance, founded on the most
.grounds, to prosecute, in consequence,
::1:, u.ces.nvi severity of the existing punishments,
considering their situation, and the extent
;0 •11:cli they are sufferers, from forgery and fraud, is,
i.: ins opinion, highly honourable to-their character,
• ough their character to' that of the nation.—
. 1% ill not go through the evidence of those persons
principles and conduct I shall always remem.
1 21 u h the greatest pleasure) but I will shortly de-
: that given by one or two of them, from which
t:,O may judge of the rest. One, a tradesman
in th.: City ut London, expressed to the-Committee
licl;cf that there was not a single shop from COlll-
- t Ckaring-cross, which did not suffer from
va-
, , depred•ttioni, to an extent that no man not coi-
-1 ,;, ith the facts could imagine.. Yet this same
r,!sented it to be the unanimous feeling of
ie.,. a engaged in trade, that the severity of the
tor th,,,,e depredations should be mid-
in order that the delinquents might be pu-
, .
acil, and the sufferers be relieved from the oh-
:,;e, which their humanity at present interposed in
way of obtaining justice. Another excellent wit-
a tradesman in Westanir.ster, who has been.for
rent)• years engaged in an extensive cdncern, told the
Cmr.Mit:en that no porter had ever been discharged
b 1 him for any cause but the commission of theft.--y
ine years ago, this gentleman brought a potter to
t:;11 for theft, mho was capitally convected ; and be
c •:; .re to the Committee, that the pain and anfiety
he and his father felt, until it was ascertatned
the Royal mercy would he extended to the of-
were such as to deter them ever after from
a similar step, and to induce them to suffer
depredation, rather than again incur so melan-
a risk. Sir, it is not so much to the virtue of

nlnlitte

conduct, as to its good sense and prusleke, that
I wish to call the attention of. tote House The opi-
-7',.13 which I have quoted are not the opinions cif
• ....in:tries and enthusiasts, but the opinions of ra-
t: ti individuals, pursuing their business in the way
.:.ich they think best calculated to ensure success;
2.:1.1 they distinctly tell you, that they believe the best
•.:curity which the Legislature could devise for their
.:(perty would be the abolition of those sanctions by

licch it has hitherto been so ineffectually guarded.
Ail the traders who were examined by the Committee
declared tlyat they spoke the opinion at least of nine-
tenths of their acquaintance, respecting the crimes of
i',toplifting, stealing in warehouses above the value of
forty shillings, and, above all, respecting the crime
of forgery. With reference to the crime that I have
just mentioned, I am anxious to dwell more particu-
larly on the evidence of two remarkably intellisent
titnesses who have been examined by thi Committee.
The first was Mr. Carr, Solicitor to the Board of Ex•
rise, a public officer of great experience, and who
gave his testimony in a manner that reflected the
utmost credit on his understanding. Besides the ex-
pression of a strong general opinion on the subject,
Mr. Carr stated several particular circumstances and
vises highly deserving of attention. Prior to the
7..-•ir 14d, the forgery of an Excise stamp was pu-
nishable only by the infliction of a penalty of 1:500.1
At that period it was made felony. Mr. Carr detailed
n the Committee a comparative statement of the,
cumber of prosecutions and convictions for that of-
fence before, and the number after it was'constituted
tinny. During the twelve years precedin 1806
there had been 21 prosecutions and 19 convictions ;
during the twelve years subsequent to 1806, there
had been nine prosecutions, and only three convic-
tions. So much were Juries disinclined to convict
since the offence was made capital, that although
before that increase in the severity of the law
t!ty had convicted in almost every case submitted
to them, since its occurrence they had convicted
la only one-third of the cases submitted to them.
This fact Mr. Carr considers (and justly considers) as
decisive with respect to the general principle. The
Hove sill perceive that it is not to the diminution
is the number of prosecutiom to which I advert, that
Tay he susceptible of various explanations; but it is
t the diminution of the number of convictions, aS
''-',mpared with the number of prosecutions; a cir•
mstvace which it must be generally admitted is
.4,-"J'tutable anis, to the increased severity of the law.
11.• fair mentioned to the Committee another into-
resting and important fact, namely, that in his pro.
,
intercourse with fraudulent traders, he had
\'..a7s found them desirous of heavy penalties, be-
i'e thA7 believed that such penalties would not be
i:-"ed• They dreaded moderate penalties, because
hi:iieved that such penalties would be enforced.
these facts a still more striking proof exists in the
;4j(r,nce of the other witness to whom I have a11u-
,.--7-elndence which, I am persuaded, will be heard
'3l' the IlOuse with great interest. It is that given by
r.Joceph Harmer, the Solicitor in Crown Prosecu-
' "Plc at the Old Bailey, who, in the course of twenty
it,te'r,' Practice, has had professional and confidential
el course with more than 2,000 persons brought to
.1. 1
in that Coort, and who must therefore be as fa-
,.s.vi:ll the causes of crime, with the hopes and
• et dclia it•.ca-, with the temptations which al.

lure them to the ;ottani= orofence, a punish.
ments calculated to deter them, as any man living.
And, Sir, I beg to add my conviction to that of this
whole Committee, that a witness of 'so much jodg,
went and intelligence, or who exhibited such evident
marks of a conscientious and humane character, has
seldom appeared before any assembly. It is, indeed,
difficult for me to imagine the evidence of any wit-
ness on this interesting subject entitled to greater
weight than that -of Mr. Harmer. Among other
things, Mr. Harmer said—and I repeat, that this Gen-
, tleman's testimony is peculiarly deserving the atten-
Aims of Honourable Gentlemen, who call those who
think with me on this subject visionaries—opposed
to all experience ; since if we are led astray, we are
led astray not by the suppositions of a theorist, but
by the able and enlightened testimony of a man who
has had experience in 2000 capital felonies, having
been in confidential intercourse with so many male-
factors. Mr. Harmer said that he knew many per-
sons who had suffered considerably from acts of lar-
ceny and forgery, but who had de:lined prosecution,
lest the delinquents, if convicted, should be punished
with death ; that he had frequently observed that
same disinclination to serve as Jurors, strising from
the same cause,.and inducing individuals to bribe the
summoning officer to leave them out of his list ; and,
he had repeatedly known Juries, influenced by the
existence of capital punishments, acquit in minor
cases 4 especially in forgeries, where the proof of guilt
was irrefragable ; that old and professed thieves who
were aware of this feeling on the part tif Ivies, had
often told him, with the sagacity and sharpness
prompted by a knowledge of their own interest, that
they were desirous to' be prosecuted capitally, as af-
fording them the probable means of escaping with
entire impunity. If so, Sir, if our present laws afford
security to the enemies of society, they must be Oleg-
nant with insecurity and danger to the- lives and
property of all good members of society. In the
continuation of his evidence before the Committee,
Mr. Harmer declares it as his decided opinion, for
the reasons which he had already stated, that the
present numerous enactments for taking away hu-
man life were inadequate to the repression of crime.
To the admirable passage which follows, and which
exhibits in a brilliant point of view this Gentle-
man's sound judgment, humane feeling, and (which
is certainly of comparative unimportance) powers
of composition, I beg the attention, of the House.—
" If I were asked," said Mr. Harmer, dwhat descip-

don of punishments would in my opinion be produc-
tive of benefit ? -I would answer, such as might force
the delinquent into a course of discipline totally op-
posite to his habits. Idleness is assuredly a part of
his character, which industry would counteract. Set
him to labour. He is probably debauched, and ab-
stineacrwould be advantageous to both his mind and
his body—apply it. He has been accustomed to dis-
solute companions, separation from whom would es-
modally ameliorate him. Keep him in solitude. He
has hitherto rioted in uncontrolled liberty of action.'
411 propose that he should be subjected to restraint.l
and the observance of proper decorum. Were these
or similar suggestions attended to, I have no doubt
that the number of criminal offenders would soon be
considerably reduced"—(Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. Har.
met further states, that he has frequently seen Jades'
reduce the estimated value of the thing stolen in order,
to screen the prisoner from capital punishment—thati
.no reluctance appears to exist in the public mind to,
see the pnnishment of death inflicted for crimes ac-
companied with circumstances of atrocity and vio-
.lence—but that those who suffer death for offences
of a less aggravated description, are consoled by the
public sympathy ; and that thus the public feeling is
excited against the whole code of our criminal law.
Sir, all those judicious observations apply to persons
whose punishment depends on the value of the prof
pert), which they have stolen. In those cases, how-
ever, there are easy means of evading the- law, and
especially by undervaluing the value of that pro-
perty. In cases of forgery, that practice cannot how-
ever be resorted to. I am sure the House would listen
with attention to the whole of the evidence given be-
fore the Committee with respect to the crime of for-
gery, for it proceeds from some of the Most eminent
bankers and merchants of the City of London; but I
will at present conteat myself with a very abridged
statement of its substance. Mr. John Smith, the
banker, a Member of this House, stated to the Com-
mittee that he knew an iqstance of a prosecution for
forgery having been reliquished on account of the
punishment of death, which he had no doubt would
have been carried to conviction had the punishment
for that crime been of a less severe description. Mr.
Barnett, the. banker, also a Member of this House,
declared to the Committee his conviction that the,
infliction of capital punishment for forgery tended
so materially to diminish the number of prosecu-'
tions for that offence, that he believed the majo-
rity of private forgeries passed unpunished. Ma',
Edward Forster, amidst other valuable inform*•
tion, stated a single occurrence, namely, that in an
instance of forgery with which he was acquainted,
friend of the prisoner's contrived, by the connivance
of the prosecutor, who was averse to conviction, tO
seize-the forged check, and to throw it in the fire.—
Mr. Forster also said, that he believed half the prir
vate forgeries passed unpunished in consequence cif
the existence of the capital punishment. Mr. --,
a banker, likewise described four remarkable cases'
of this sort ; and declared to the CoMmittee, that he
should consider his property to be much more secure
were the severity of the present punishment for for-
gery mitigated.—Mr. Samuel Hoare's evidence was
also highly worthy the attention of the House. That
Gentleman informed the Committee, that in most
cases is which the life of a prisoner was endangered,
he observed, that there was great reluctance to pro-
secute, but in a case of forgery more than in any
other ; and that, instead of thinking that the secu-
rity of property would, be diminished by a Enid-
irauen of punishMent, he was persuaded it would
6e increased.—Mr. Goldsmith, the Broker to the
Bank of England, declared that he knew many.
hundred instances, in which the capital punish-
ment had prevented prosecutions. for forgery.—
, Sir, I not fatigue the House by, any further de,
tails of this nature. When the Report of the Com-
mittee coraes to be printed, I am persuaded that the
evidence which it contains will be read with no ordi-
nary interest. I shall now, therefore, close the ob-
servations with which I have troubled the House, by
merely stating the general instructions which I have
received from the Committee. The Committee de-

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