Star.
London, England, 1829-02-28 00:00:00

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rre
.le, hid ant remain silent on the object. It not only
effected the persons who were pressed into the service,
ut likewise very msterially injured the commercial in-
terests of the county. It the system was not altogether
done away with, an inquiry should at least be made into,
k. He expected that such a step should be taken at this
particular time, when the Government were doing so
issitch for the general good. The system of impressmenti
was *material) y injurious to the shipping. trade, e-p ci slly
the Colonies, where the seamen in merchant vessels'
onstrained to enter into the navy—it necessarily
owners of the ships to a very great expense and
eience. He not only objected to the system, but
. to introsting the power of impiessn ent in the
of subiedinaie ofhcers. If it were to continue, the
should be ukthe hands of some officer who would
it properly. lie wished to know what were the
ions of the Government on the subject ?
;. CLERK hoavd the lion. Member would not
that he should enter into a detail of the system
ow. He should merely say that the Admiralty
ii•tention of bringing any measure before the
to do assay with the present sty-Arm. The Hon.
fiber was aware that in tme of pe.ce it arts not
and he thought that eren in case of war it
Would not now be fund necessity to have recourse to
It. lie knew, however, the necessity of manning the
Bsitish navy well, and he doubted the policy of Parlia-
ment interfering to deprive them of the power of call-
ing upon every seaman to enter into the set vice when
their services should be found necessary.
Mr. HUME said, alhough he could not agree with
the Right Honourable Gendeman that the system
should be continued, yet he believed it was not esual to
discuss the subject when they were about to enter upon
'the Estimates. If the Hon. Member (Mr. Robinson)
would fix upon any day to bring the question before the
consideration of the House. he would sopport him.
Tim Home then resolved itself Into a Committee.
Sir GEORGE CLERK felt much satisfaction in
being able to inform the House that a considerable re-
duction had taken place in the Estimates of this year
compared with those of last. The attention of the Ad.l
rniralty had been directed to the state of all the navy,
establishments in the empire, in order to see what VW
ductions could be made. Already a very great reduction
'Of expense had taken place in those establishments, and
arraugements were making for still greater. The House,
however, was aware that, though some alterations might
be made, great care should be taken lest they should
fall into worse errors than those they wished to cortect.
In'the first place, de number of men employed was the
cane as last year. The same circumstances still existed I
in the east, which required them to increase their :qua- I
dron in the Mediterranean ; and there, as well as on
other stations, it would be found that the British naval
force was not greater than that of other nations, Of than;
Wes necessary from their foreign relations. It was ne-
cessary for him to explain the-apparent increase of wages,,
as they were three shillings per n.an pet month more
than last year. This arose trim having removed 'the
charge of slops and clothes, which were last year charged
to the account of stunts, to the m, n's Wage.. The sum,
of the inc ease' in this item was
.69,0001. Is would be
found that the reductions ifs the stores were more than
that. The vote for previsions was jiliviise greater than
last year ; but this, as the Committee wete aware, arose
lain from an increase of the victuals to the men, bat
from the increase of the puce of piovisions. Thi*
formed ate increark of one shilling per man per mouth.
The amount of the charges of these two items amounted
to 1,6574004 This, with the addition of the 3s. per
held on the rate of wages, made this branch 78,0001.
greater than it was in the 1811 year, but still, by reduc-
tions in other brafiches, there wciuld be a reduction on
the.whole of I 17,0001:es compared with the last year.
The Committee were aware that at, the end of the last
Sedan of Parlianieut the Board of Ldngitude was abo-
lished.. There were then three. scientific Gentlemen
employed-at a salary of one hundred a year each. When
theßoard 'was put doWn it appeared to the Admiralty
that, as 3001. a year was so small a sum, and it
would be necessary to have some persons to refer to
on scientific subjects, it would be better to continue the
salary to those Gentlemen., It was only Mambas of
the Royal Society who were to be employed; and salves
be stated the names of those who were employed, the
Committee would admit that theyConld hardly have
snide a better choice. The first 'was Dr.' Young._ the
next Captain Seville, and the third an eminent chymist,
Mi. Farraday. He thought, under these circumstances,
there could be no objection to continue ibis sum. There
teas also in the estimates of last year 1,0001. allotted for
rewards and experiments which was at the_ disposal of
the Board of Longitude. This sum was, likewise to be
continued. The next item was the charge for the Navy
Pay office. Thisivas a matter which had swatted his
particular attention, in cons, quence of the-debarkation
of,an individual from this office to the actions injury of
the public. They wished to make such arrangements
as would.preyent the recurrence of such a circumstance;
but as all alterations in, this department were made by
legislative enactment, the matter would of course come
brims the House. A- circumstance of the same kind
bad taken place in Greenwich Hospital, and with re-.
pill to it the same course must be pursued. In the
Navy Office a very considerable reduction would take
place. There were nit* Commissionets, which were,
to be reduced to. sir. With respect. 'to the, Clerks
in 'the offices, be could _not speak ao exactly as
to the number; but arrangements were making for
lessening the superannuated list by appointing the junior
clerks to act as supernumeraries, and, making tines fill
up tile vacancies as they should occur. The reduction
to be Medlin the number of Commissioners of the Navy
would require the authority of sn Act of Parliament
before it could be carried into effect. It would, be new-•
satyr to Introduce a Bill to make the signatures of two
Coptini4iOneri equally effective as the signatures of
three Commissioners, which were stow necessary. The
number cf Commissioners being reduced, if. threesigna-
tures were required the duties of the ofSce_wou ld become
much tait'heavy; there were such an immense number
of documents to be signed. As to ' the Victualling
Office, it was also intended that there should be a yes-•ii
duction' of the number .\f tomasissiOsieks. that de.,
pumices The present number, was' seven, and it era-
propleci to reduce the number to six.. It had been
bound' impossible to catty reduction further is, 041
particular depaitineet. Tsse,unstistliiiOneri.siefe. some
t abeent on' profersiotial business, and it was ne-
cessary to hAre Awn others to Supply their plaices
and those font Commissioners, With therhairMan en4'
deraty.thaidnafi, comprised khe'Board.
..lo the Esti.i
mate lot the duck jai& there was a cdticihn of &OWL'
as computed with the Estimare.of last year ; and he
he a
ped.beiore the year was over, nd...indeed, before any
tuithe'r apid.cation was made to Parliament fqr an ad,
vdnee:e9*il.r.si E-tim.4s). that a much:larger seduction
wtiukltweffected. It tau very easy to talk of rookie,*
reductions, but he could assure Hon. Members that
even when reductions were determined upon, it ,rrquiresi
greafertitioll to terry iher*.iiitt;effect:T:.Alleal.)_ Vim
*es a reiLitii-dtof 10 001. on the sum required fos•th,
of the wages of a, Cfi:ers in the duck-yatot,

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• + 'AZ «40-1;1. 5.., t. • . : .. .
and that redaction was produced by employing p'
sandier panther of artificer& The iiitimate last year wee
490.0001. and the estimate for the present year was,
480.0001. for the wages of artificers. It was only fair
to mention that the decrease in the amount of the esti-
mate for stores were merely apparent. The apparent
increase of the vote for wages was a mere transfer of
00,0001. from the vote for stores. The estimate under
this head,did not vary mate. iallyiftoin the estiosate at
last year, for it had been thought impolitic to permit the
naval gores of the country to become exhausted.—.
The item for pilotage was recently inserted in the
estimates; 40,0001. was the sum fixed upon, but. the
teal outlay always exceeded that sum ; and it was now
proposed to add 10,0001 to the last estimate,. which
would bring the estimate much nearer tile teal *a-
rose. There was very little difference in the remain-
tior estimates, as compared with those of last year.'
There was a small increase in the medical establish.'
ascot, and a considerable reduction in the charge of thei
naval college at. Portsmouth. Last year there were
seventy-two students in the college, and now the num-
ber was eighty. The former system was, that half the
students, who were the sons of naval and military
i fficers, paid nothing,. and the other students paid 701.
a year. The students who were the sons of officers
now paid someihing equal to the expense .of their
maintenance, and the other students paid 1201. a year.
The full benefits of the present regulations did not ap-
pear in the present estimate, but would take effect berme
the. next year. It might be interesting to some Members
to learn that the Commissioners of the Admiralty had
directed the Professor at the Naval College at Ports-
mouth to give lectures on the scientific subjects con-
nected with the profession. All naval and military
Officers would be admissible to those lectures, which
would not be attended with any increase of expense
to the public. TO next estimates were the super-.
annuation allowances and the half-pay list. There was no
alteration worth mentioning in either of those Estimates.
There had been an inctease in the amount of the Esti-.
mate for the pensions of Officers widows, and it was
.to be feared that Estimate would continue to iocresso.
The House aas aware that the restrictions as to.tbe
marriage of Officers widows, had been removed in di-
•ference to they sense.of.. the House. Since that reside•
tins oast. -been removed the increase of expente wit.
much greater than bad been anticipated. Indeed tbe
'increase was so great, that it was a consideration
whether the restriction ought not again to be' n-1
troduced. The seismal '.f the regulation, however,
had been forced on the Government by the sense of the
House, and it %vivid therefore ill become the Govern.
ment to propose a return to tilt-se restrictions; but the
subject was worthy of consideratiOn. An alteration had,
been introduced as to the fund from which widows
pensions were paid. It had been the custom to put a
certain number of fictitious mess on the books of every,
ship, and the sums thus saved were applied towards the
payment of widows pensions. This system had been
pot rid of, as it. was found that it only created confusion
loth, account, and gave more labour to the corks--
(Hoar, bear).. A small abatement was made from the'
pay of officers, and an abatement of 3d. in the pound
on the half_ pay of naval officers; and the sums thus
created went to defray the expense .of widows' pen-
ions. It w.-s a question, however, whether the sums'
thus paid by the public should not be voted directly. and
rho real amount of the widows pension list would then
be seen. There was a reduction of no less than 80,0001. On
the estimate for works. The only new work now going on
was the buildingof an engine house *trot tansouPose hicls
was about to be erected for the purpose cf repaints the
engines of steampackets.When any part,of dip macbraery;
of those vessels, got out of'order, it.had been necessary.
to send theni round to the river, by -which their service&
were lost for a considerable time.. This loss of tin*
would be prevented by the erection of the engine house
at Portsmouth, which wooldhe effected at an expease
of 74001.
.The.Comnsittee would observe that the esti-
mates contained an item of 156,9001. for the works goins
on at Sheerness; bet it was not intended to take thet
vote during the present year. The works at Sheer...,
nets were now placed bEyond all danger, and if. It
was 'found' necessary they might be finished. in a very,
Short time ; but at. present the works were to 4
suspended, and it was not intended to call upon Par.,
liament for- any part of .the vote during the present
.year. He had already stated that the estimate for pro-
visions was larger this year than it bad been last year,
as there had been a considerable increase in the, prices
of provisions. It was not necessary to trouble the Com-
mittee with any further details. The amount of the
Navy Estimates for the present year was, in round
numbers, 5,878.0001. whilst the amount last year was
5,995,0001. The redaction, therefore, on the Estimates
for this year was 117,0001—(Hear). The Honourable
Baronet then moved the first Resolution, which was to
the effect that 30,0.:0 men should be employed for the.
sea service in the present year, including 9,000 men
belonging to the Royal Marines.
The CHAIRMAN having put the question ea the Reseletieno
Mr. HUME was glad to bear the promises of eta.
nomy which had been thrown out ; but he would much
rather have heard of an immediate reduction, than had.
promises of reductions:which were to take place. Tbe.
.Committee were aware that the Finance Committee had
come to the deliberate conclusion that reductions might
be effected in almost every branch of the, public ser-
vice. The Members of the Finance Committee would
now percejiethat it was not enough that they should
take evidence as to the reducaions that might be effected.
They should have reported on the subject, and not have
left the matter entirely in the hands of Government.
It had been said that the Duke of Wellington would
clear away every thing; but nothing had been done.
The estimates were reduced to the amount of 117.0001.
but this reduction had not- been effected by any real
saving. The quantity of timberhad been diminished,
or, in °ther words, the usual stores had been withheld;
but surely that could not be considered a saving. Then
as to the &WOW., saved on the estimate for works, it
only amounted to this, that the works bad been sus-
pended. Now, he objected to that system—the works '
ought aot to be suspehdedior they. ought to be given up. ,
If the works were uaeful they .thould be completed ati
once, juiced ,of ?presiding the amount over a numbes
of years, us. the ,gneat disadvantage of the country.
this way the breakwater at Paymouth was managed,
which might have been finished in two years, instead of
«thick onestoiiihmen; was kept up for a number of
iyeerariffo gain appreciated the services of the navy more
thets !topic., Hume) did, and he was always desirous to
re use the army and to keep up the navy; so that be did,
not suggest reductions in that-branch of the service in a
Aggartly,spiOt,. He thought .the pi epent establishment,l
hotegyers was unnecessasily .large. There were thirty
thousand men for the sea service, and, from the evidence
taken before the Finance Committee, he contended that
a reduction of 10,000 men could be effected. In 1821 and
1822 that e were not more than 2.3,000 men employed is.
the Navy. When an iticreise was proposed it was on the
ground that our foreign relations were nut in a =tate
which enabled us to reckon with any degree of certainty
on the continuance of peace, and the increase of our

. .. '
tUttii ne was stated to be only temporatek if so large a
fore. as thirty thousand men were kept the estimates
.sided not be • materially reduced, but would remain at
lisisat they now were. above 5,800,0001. He thought the
number of men might be reduced without any disadvan-
lawn° the service.2.7oo men were employed in the coast
blockade service alone, and it would. be weU for Par-
liament to consider whether it wis• right to keep laws
in existence which .requited such a force to carry t'.em'
into effect. At all events, :he expense of persons em•'
ployed in this, service. should be transferred to the Re-
venue, and not charged, to. he. Marine. Seven hundred
and five men were alsoomployed in the packet service,
which had been taken up by the Government only within
a few years ; but it did 'not appear that the packets were
safer or better. Indeed, he understold that a.grearer
number of packets were lost within the last few years,
since Government interfered, than had been during the
entire war. The only use of those packets was to
convey letters, and, if, they were necessary, the Port-
office should. be ,charged with the expense, for that
was the only public establishment deriving any bene-
fit from them. There were 5,583 marines kept on shore.
for what purpose he could not conceive;. for, nr ta ids -
standing the existence of such a force on shore, the army
was not reduced. The 5 000 marines kept on shore he
conceived might be reduced; and thus, including the
persons employed in the coast blockade service and those
employed in the. packet service, no less than 9,000 men
would be removed from the naval service, without in
any degree crippling the navy. The naval force kept
up at different stations was also, he contended, unneces
sarily large. There were 2,000 men belonging to our navy
stationed at Lisbon. As to that count's', our. Govern
(Dent had been too long playing fist and loose with it,
and it was absurd-to keep se large a naval force there,
'acting as a kind of police, for it was, in effect, nothing
'more. There were several other stations on which he
considered that we had an unnecessarily large naval
force, if the assurances contained in his Majests's Speech
were to be relied upon, and that there was a reasonable
prospect of the continuance of peace. There was so.
reason, unless there was air apprehension of war. *hat
the navy should not be reduced to the state to which it'
was in 1822. As to the establishments for building ships,
they entailed its enormous expense on the country. Since
the peace micas a sum than tssenry-three millions had
been expended in building 'and repairing sl i. s, and a
great number of those bad got into decay. The whole
tonnage of the navy might be calcula ed at about three
hundred thousand tons, and ships cauld be built at thirty
pounds a ton. The whole number of ships, as they
stood a; Presents might be built for nine millions,
and twice that sum had been laid out since the close of
the war. He complained that, with mole ships than
all the world beside, we were still going on increasing
the amount d our navy, and keening, at a great ex-I
pease, from repairs and' otherwise, a vast number of
ships, no reasonable expectation of employing which 11
could, In' any well informed rrson, be entertained.—
In the present state of the navy, and in the presentl
aspect of our foreiga relations, -a vast deal of this
expense might. ;be postponed ; especially the opera-1
tions at Sheerness might be .postponed., The fact
was, if the Committee took the trouble to look over
the estimates and the returns, they would see that
at the present moment we bad mote ships than,
we could men, without any of those extraordinary ex=
ertious to which he hoped recourse would never be had.
To enter into some particulars—we had, rot the Yards'
at home. an expendi.ure of 145,0001. abroad the cape's'
was 52;0001. Before 1792 the average expense set this
department of the public service fluctuated between
22.0001. and 23,0001. Bearing that fast in mind, he
could not but express strong surpriorthat the llon.
Member should come down to the House with the Rsti-1
mates destitute of that reduction which the country had
a right to expect. The Navy-office was especially one of
those public departments which might be dispensed with.'
It was like auotheroffice.of neatly the same descsiptiow
—not a pay but a. check office. It would be a great
saving, and very easily effected, were it altogether done
away with. The head of that department, when exa-
mined before the Finance Committee last year, gave it
as his opinion that the office intimation should be' du-
pealed with. That was an authority which Hon. Mem-
bers opposite- ought not to dispute; and yet they sou
--
pled not to come to House withoufeffecting that di-
minution of the public buttbens. Before the French war
the docks cost the country only 25,352/.. It was not 1.01
much, then, to expect that they might now be reduced,
Toot so low as that. at least to one half their present
came, When Mr. Barrow was examined before the
Committee respecting the cost of snpetintendence, be
stated that the best mode of arriving at a jest conclu-
sion would be by comparing the expense of a private
yard with a public one.. Thus, in his Majesty's yard
at Woolwich there were 248 shipwrights, 18 clerks, 16
measurers, the wholesystem of expenditure, on the same
extended scale; while in a private yard, where there
were 250 shipwrights, there weie only one foreman, one
measurer, two clerks, and ten labourers, with every
extra expense in the like proportion. Thus was seen the
difference always found to subsist between the way in
which individuals conducted their business, and that in
which that of the state was carried on, though there was
manifestly no sufficient reason for such a distinction be-
tween the concerns of the public and those of individuals.
There was an expense for workmen of .5!:0,0001. for su-
perintendence of those men not less than an expense of '
150,0001. Of she disproportion between the one and
the other he would leave the Committee to judge. IC
some places the expense of supetintendence was to the
expense of the works as one to one and three-fourths;
in others as one to one and four-fifths, and commonly
running in those proportions. The Hon. Member then
proceeded to observe upon the unsatisfactory way in
which the estimatfs were made' up, with the eat t of
details;. the putting of the charges in too many in-
stances in gross and aggregate sus s, instead of each
particular being so specified as that it w u'd be easily
set. He concluded by assuring the Committee that he
made these observations without any hostile feeling
towards 'the Government, nothing of anger or of ill
will; but, with the knowledge wl sell he possessed, he
could not resist the sense of duty hich impelled him to
p
ok
ress these matters upon the ser' us consideration of the
'Committee, and to urge the lion. Gentlemen opposite
to apply themselves to effect such a simplification of
The accounts as might lead to an accurate and practical
knowledge ea they really stood.
Sir BYAM MARTIN observed that, though the
gross amount was 5,878,0001. 620,0001. did not pro
perly belong to the Navy, and there was a farther sum
of 2,160,0001. to be taken off on accrunt of dead
weight—a sum which had no more to do with 'the real
expenses of the navy than it had to do with any other
branch of the public service. The sum really applied
did not exceed 3,708,0e01. for building and repairs,
for victualli I. and hospitals. The greater number 01
clerks of which so muck complaint had been made was
necessarily consequent upon the increase .of .duties
to be performed. In 1792 the number of ships was
slily seventy-eight; at present they amounted to ISO.
The number of clerks in 1792 was ninety-tour. An

Inereasiof only Vac's* in that number bed taken place.
For his part he felt much at a loss to know where Mr.
Bartow got the information on which he gro,mded his
statements to the C msniittee. The norm le and
Gallant Member then entered into the details uf a pri.
sate yard wi h which he was .ccriainted, for the pus..
pose of shot' iog that the expew.e! at stipet iritendence in
the establishments of the Goveinnient did not so much
exceed those of individeals as hod ',Len represented;
that, in fact, in the c..se to which he more particularly
applied himself, the superintendence in the private esti.
blAment was 34, while that in the public was 26-4
difference not affording much ground for complaint --
Wsth respect to the amount of wages paid in 1792 and
at present, H nourable Members should bear in mind
that a wide difference existed between the price of pro.
vi-ions then and now.

Mr. MA BERLY said it was not very material to
determine ::nether the amount of 8.800.0001. was for
living and the 2000,0001. for dead weight, but whether
the 3 8(X1,0001. was or was not properly expended T
N .thing could be more clear and intelligib e than the
evidence given on th.t subject before the Finance
Committee, and tot!ting could be mote indisputable
,than the proposition that every practicable reduction
should he made. -Ssips had been built that were no-
' necessary, and the keeping • up of which was unne.
ce.sirf. In making 'that observation, however, he was
perfectly ready to give credit to his Atajesty'aliovernment
for every sincere desire to effect all practicable reduc.
iion, for he wa fully a A are of the difficulties insepara-
ble from retrenchment; but the pledges given ought
to be redeemed, :and that befo:e next year. He thought
it most unwise and imprudent, in the present situation
of public affairs, to keep up a great naval force merely
that we might be able, at some future time. to go to
war. He was convinced that, had the Committee been
sitting up toilie present time, and had made a report on
the particular mattes, under consideration, and that the
Iprinciples of that report were acted on, there would
have been a considerable saving effected to the nation.
Sir G. COCKBURN was happy to speak in the prew
since of several Members of the late Finance Com.
mittee, who could • bear him 4 set in the statement.
that when in .his evidence he spoke of reducing the
30,000 men to 20,000 men, he supposed the country
to be at peace without a chance of war, that there
were no pirates on the seas, and that it was not
necessity to send a large naval force to any quarter
of the globe. In his opinion, it was not only. im-
perative on this country to endeavour to put the
pirates down on account of the injury they were to
all nations, but because the attempt was one of the
means by which England ptocu:ed for himself a supe-
riority in the commetce of the world. It certainly had
been expected, by the reductions which had taken place
last year at Lisb3n, that the number would be reduced
below 30,000; hut though they, had been withdrawn
from Lisbon, it had been necessary to increase the
number in the Mediterranean. And with respect to
this increase he would observe, that though we were
certainly in a state of peace at present, we were bound
to be so prepared that we should not be taken by sur-
prise in the event of a war—(Hear, hear) He would
ask the House whether it would be prudent to withdraw
our ftrces from the Mediterranean, while both the Rus-
sians and the French had a fleet there?—(Hen). He
believed that this countr y was likely to conttnue at peace
with Russia, but it w as judged by Government, and
wisely as he thought, 'hat it was prudent still to keep our
lorces there; which, in leis opinion, was the sure way to
preserve that pe ace which already existed—it served to
make the nations cisil to its, and •make them respect
us. But the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Horne) had
complained that the ships bu It since the 1 each had
rotted, and that the mcney srent upon tl em had coast.
quently been wasted; but this he denied, ler he really
believed that the ships which had' been built sin e the
peace, were better now than they were when launched;
and the reason was, that those which were built in the
time of peace were built slowly, carefully, and under
cover, while those built in war were huriird on t n meet
the exigency. With respect to the establishments that •
were kept up, he was flee in cenfess that, in his opinion,
there was a larger soperintendence in the Dockyards
and in London than was altogether necessary. The G
vet nment, he was happy to state, had been looking
into those matters, and though it could not m.ke all
those reductions that might be n ade in a moment, yet
it certainly was its• intention to examine every thing.
and to make every possible reduction; and he hoped, '
when he next had the hon ur to address the House on
this subject, that he should be able to state something
satisfactory to them on this held. With respect to the
Marines, he could assure the Committee, that they had •
their time fully occupied on shore in doing garrison
duty ; and it was therefore clear that they relieved the
army to that extent t in having them on shore ready,
there was this advantage—that, in the event t f a war,
those additional Marines—to the number of about 5000,
could instantly man the frigates, and would at once be
`efficient for that purpose ; while. it fresh men were em-
ployed, they °alai be useless for the first month, owing
to sea sickness. As to the Dock yards, it was the in-
tention of Government that Chatham and Woolwich
should be used as building-yards, while Sheerness was
employed as the fitting.yard.
flir H. PARNELL compared the state of our naval Meet with
that of foreign nations in 1793. and its state compared with that
of all the world at present, and contended that we did not need so
large a force now as we did then.
Sir C. COLE was of opinion that it would be much better fie-
Government to supply its own stores, as be believed that all war
contracts turned out in the end to be inordinately expensive. •
Mr. Alderman WAITH AI A N complained that the Finance
Committee bad been broken up without making a Report on the
Navy.
Mr. HUME thought that a great deal of the expense of the
Victualling Office might be got rid of by permitting the stores to
be supplied by contract.
Lord A LTIIORP said that the Navy Board might be divided
into three departmenti--the manufacturing department, which
would embrace the building, Sic. the commercial, which would
include the baying of stores and provisions; and the financial des
peruneor, in which the accounts might be kept. These depart-
meats ought to be kept distinct, and there ought to be no mixture
of responsibility. If this division were made, and strictly adhered
lane
die Navy Board would be looked upon as the pattern instead of
Ordnance.
Mr. A. BARING should be sorry to see any diminution of ear
oral force that was not absolutely esseotial. The tercet proper
Mbs kept by the country, both by land and sea, must depend epos
fermsiss; that a country which keeps up establishments beyond .
Ur MOM. instead of strengthening itself, was entailing weakness
Iwo MIL When the Finance Committee recommended a redraw •
gin of our naval force we had a deficient revenue - but be hoped,
with our present improved finances. that be shi;old be able to
Maintain the force now proposed—(Hear). A respectable • force
we* not
,only consistent with our honour and dignity, but was the
serest means of maintainiag peace. The Committee of Finance
appointed last year was useful in furnishing hints for retrenchment,
which be bad hopes the Government would adopt worn the candid
end fair manner in which the information was gives that led to .
this suggestion. The dead weight, however, it was. in this branch
of the seniors, weU as in all the others, that was the great evil en
be overcome. It was flee or as mill ohs skogether—a most ensue
mots sum, compared with what it was in former times. It this
were taken away our establishments would best to be compared
with those of any other country in Europe for their
Mr., Baring coodaded los expnusing his rdiaise that Me
doss of reduction whlcbhad been thrown me by Ministers world
be carried into effect, and that some provides would be ask
against such events as the losses which had bees barred. ire a
great amount, In she present year, by the maim' sway nit pass*

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