Star.
London, England, 1827-03-20 00:00:00

alsopreseatod ■ Petition Dam the Miner of Newark, Mann
Impoetatlon o( PereigitCern.
Mr: DlCKllKSON.pramonted a Pethion from Frame, In
Wotan, against lorther concession to the Roman Catholics.
the motion of Mr. Dawson tbe day for tables Into eon
ott the Denbigh Rieetlon Petition, was postponed lentil after
Raster freest...P.l9a, not bind.

!BI SHIPPING INTIRIEST.

Mr.tARING said, he had a Petition to present from
numerous and most respectable body of ship-owners,
agtinst the changes which had been recently made in
the Navigation Laws. He obierved that this was a
matter of vitarimportante to the interests of the coun-
ts?, and he wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, whether be would Consent to a Committee
being appointed to investigate the subject ? He ex-
pressed his belief that the public were kept in suspknse
as to the intentions of Government on this and other
subjects, on accodnt of the present mealier situation of
Cabinet. It was time that thetoontty should kn,pw
was to be !'time Minister. Unless the Cabinet
arrangement should be completed in two or three
weeks, be trusted that some independent Member, un-
connected with any party, would direct the attention of
diament to the subject. It was generally understood,
4 a division of opinion prevailed in the Cabinet with
respect to the liberal system introduced within the last
o or three years, and that that was the reason why
office of Prime Minister had not been filled up. He
considered the present situation of the Cabinet a serious
calatnity, and thought it impossible that matters could
long continue in their present state.
Mr. C. GRANT believed the House would agree
with him in thinking it,advisable,te abstain from enter-
..g into any discussion With respect to the subject which
bad been brought under their notice. His Right Hon.
Friend was most anxious to have an opportunity of
stating his sentiments to the House, and expected at no
great distance of time to have an opportunity oldoing
so. The Hon. Member must therefore excuse him if he
abstained from stating whether the prayer of the peti•
(for a Committee) would be acceded to, or indeed
..om pledging his Right Hon. Friend as to any course
whatever.

General GASCOYNE said, that in order to give the
.fight Hon. President of the Ward of Trade, a fell
opportunity of being present upon the discussion of the
motion relative to the Navigation Laws, he had it in
contemplation to postpone that motion till after the re-
cess; and he proposed the fist Tuesday in May. He
should abstain from any discussion now, and then enter
/Lilly into she subject. If, however, the recess was longer
than usual, he should name an early day.

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said, that after some
difficulty he had made up his mind upon the pteient
question. There was, no doubt, great distress in the
trade, but he did not think it such that Parliament would
be able to find an adequate remedy—(Heer, hear).
did not think the operations of the shipowners would
auger to any considerable extent. It would appear that
sere bad been a great excess of British tonnage, during
three last, over the thrm preceding years. He could
not think that the shipping interest would be affected
. the way the commercial interest had been. At the
same time, as it was an important matter to the country,
,-was inclined to support a Committee of Inquirsy. •
Mr. Secretary PEEL suggested, as the most advisable
eburie of the House wrong, as his Right Hon. Friend
As unavoidably absent from indisposition ; and as the
postponement of the questioulail not been made at his
request, that Gentleman should ahst4in trout discussion,
Ntnd.not enter into precipitate pledges.
Mr. C. GRANT expreised the sense entertained by
Right Honourable Friend of the indulgence shewn
him by the House, and his consciousness of the in-
convenience which the postpon. ment of the queiti
would occasion; but he by -no means desired it to be
postponed on his account. and would attend the House
• any hazard—(heer, hear.) He might now es well
;wer a question which had been Fut to him by an
,lonourable Gentleman the other night respecting the
conventions. It had been stated that they had not been
laid on the table: he had ascertained they had all been
laid on the table immediately after their signature.

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN stated that he should
have to present, to-Morrow, a Petition similar to that
)w before the House.
Mr. BARING obseryed that the encroachments by
foreign nations upon our shipping interest were so
manifest, that it became absolutely necessary to recon-
sider the propriety of the alteration of the law. He did
not know what was to become of the country if the fact
was e.tablisbed that we could not maintain our com-
mercial superiority.
Mr. WARBURTON, in allusion to what bad been
,aced by the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. Baring),
to the division in the Cabinet, observed that so far
'rom that being the case, on this subject, if anything in
to conduct of Government had given satisfiction, it
vas that all its Members had repeatedly stated they
were all agreed in the propriety of following the liberal
principle of which they had already given proofs.
.air THOMAS LETHBRIDGE observed, that the
Hon. Member who presented the present Petition, was
the very Member who, two or _three years agp, presented
• Petition to the House, calling upon Government to
put into execution those very plans which be now so
igularly reprobated—(Hear, hear). He (Sir Thomas)
tad ever entertained but one opinion--that was, that
was impossible to follow up the system of fie*
.rade in this highly taxed country. The more he
looked into the question the more he was satis-
fied with the propriety of that opinion. The proteo-
lion they had formerly enjoyed being withdrawn from
our shipowners, they bad now to compete with foreign
shipping in a manner they had no idea of. He thought
the Gallant General (Gascoyne) ought to lose no time
bringing forward the motion, of which he had given
notice, considering the vitarinterests that were at stake.
This was the more necessary, when it was recollected to
*hat a distant time it might be put, if it was put off
ill after the recess.
Mr. Secretary PEEL again requested that the subject
might not be further discussed in so irregular a manner.
General GA6COYNE said, he was determined to
Aura to his intention of postponing the motion to
the I.t of May.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, that if the motion were
postponed to Vie Ist of May, the appointment of a
Committee at that period would be useless, so far as re-
garded the present Session.
Mr. BARING said, that the question of time was of
great importance, and it was for that reason he was de-
sirots of learning from the Vice-President of the Board
' Trade. whether Ministers intended to oppose the ap-
pfsintarst of a Committee. If Ministers were resolved
not to scant a Committee, it did not much matter when

• •• •

General GASCOYNE , that if Ministers in-
tended to accede to his motion, there would be no
necessity to postpone it; but if otherwise, he would not
bring it forward till the time he had stated.
Mr. SYKES thOught that the motion should not be
postponed to so late a period,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that without pledging himself as to any particular
' course which the Government might think it advisable
to adopt when the motion should be submitted, he
begged to state on the putt of himself and his Right
Hon. Friends, that their wish was that the Gallant
General ihould take exactly that course which be con,
sidered most convenient to himself, to the petitioners,
and all the parties interested. If the Gallant Officer
should fix upon a time when his Right Hon. Friend, the
President of the Board of Trade, should from ill health
be unable to attend, he undertook to say on the part of
those about him, 'that they would, though deprived of
the assistance of their Right Hon. Colleague, endeavour
to give the best explanation in their power of the views
of Governmeht•Hpon the subject.
General GASCOYNE said, that after what had (alien
from the Right Hon. Gentleman, he would postpone fiis
motion till Friday teennight.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that Friday woold be an inconveaient day.
General GASCOYNE ellen fired his motion for
Thursday sennight.—The Petition was ordered to be'
printed.
Mr. A. CA hi PBELL presented a Petition from the ship owners
of Glasgow, relative. to the state of the Navigatios Laws.
The adjourned Debate em the Bribery at Bleak= was post-
posed to Mandel. neat.

CORN TRADE.

Mr. C. GRANT moved the Order of the Day for a
Committee of the whole House upon the Corn Acts.

The Smits& basing left the Malt.. the first Mastodon put was,
I"That when the average prier of rye, peas, sod bean* shuold be
3.65. the quarter, and under 36a. the duty upon foreign lasportadoo
dwold be 155."
Sir J. BRIDGES regretted the introduction of the
measures before the House, and believed that they would
be injurious.to the Agricultural interest.
Mr. GIPPS moved an amendment upon the original
Resolution—" That when the average price of rye, &c.
amounted to 40s. the foreign duty should be 155."

Mr. WESTERN objected to the course which Mi-
nisters had taken in departing from the old principle,
according to which the relative value of corn had been
*titillated. In all preceding arrangements the value of
rye, peas, and beans, had been taken to be two-thirds
that of wheat, and the duty imposed had We two-
thirds of the wheat duty accordingly. Now, however,
the value was' pot at lower than twothirds—it was •i
to 60s. and the duty imposed was three-fourths, it was
15s. to 205.. He thought it would be far more lair and
convenient to return to the old standard, and take the
relative value of two-thirds, both as to the commodity
' and the duty; and be should propose to substitute for
the words of the original Resolution 40s. for the average
of the rye, peas, scc. instead of 2.55. asd 151 s. 6J. instead
of 15s. for the duty.

• Mr.C. GRANT said that the preset calculations had
been made upon a comparison of die prices of rye, peas.
and beans, for the last six years. •

Mr. WODEHOUSE said, that the resolution pro-
posed left the farmers. %fallout any remedy in the event
of a losing crop; now, the fact was, that every crap of.
the last year, except that of wheat, had been a lo,ing
crop. He would support the amendmeat of the Hon.
Member for Dorset.

Sr E. KNATCHBULL thought that the whole cal-
culation of Ministers had been upon erroneous princi-
ples. The average taken had been that of the last six
years; now the fact was, that during the whole of the
last six years, the agriculturists, instead of making a
profit, bad been growing to a loss. The course of Mi-
nisters ought to have been, not the considering the
average, but the ascertaining what was a fair remu•
Inerating price.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the question, though it lay in a narrow corn-
pass, was an important one ; but the course of the Ho-
nourable Gentlemen connected with the landed interest

placed Government in rather an unfair situation.—
When it had been pi opcseJ to rely upon the average of
the last six years, in the case of the oats and barley, the
Hon. Gentlemen were quite agreed, because that gave
them a better rate than under the old rule they would
have obtained; but now, upon the rye and peas, *hen
the weapon cut a little the other way, they wanted to
turn about, and said, " Let us calculate upon the old
principle.' Now it was at least fair that the course
pursued should be uniform; and certainly that taken
was one by which the landed Gentlemen did not suffer.
Mr. CALCRAFT thought that each case ought to
stand upon its own merits. He did not see that the
agriculturists were bound to accept a rule as regarded
the peas and beans, because they had agreed to it for
the oats and barley.
Mr. 6. ROBINSON trusted that it was not the inten-
tion of Ministers to give way upon this point, as they
had done in the ease of the oats and barley. The landed
Gentlemen should recollect that there were other inte-
rests to protect besides their own, and the change in the
measures as to oats and barley bad given them 2s. a
quarter additional duty.
Mr. CRIFPS argued that the interests of the land-
owner and the manufacturer were inseparable.
Mr. W. WHITMORE hoped that the
.Committee
would not be led away by the supposition that the alte-
ration proposed was of a trivial nature. He trusted
that his Majesty's Ministers would persevere in pressing
the original resolution. •
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE contended that there ought
to be an alteration in favour of the home grower, and
that the Resolution, as it now stood, could not be agreed
to without injuring the agricultural interest. A great
deal had been said about the conduct of landed Gen-
tlemen, but he begged the House to recollect that they
were there upon their defence, and that they would not
do their duty if they did not watch every item of the
Resole' ions.

Colonel WOOD said that the importation of beans
was not words talking about; and he must put it to the
Hon. Member who had proposed the amendment, whe-
ther if was worth dividing the Committee upon ii?
Sir T. GOOCH said, that Beaus and Peas were

land in Ens's* anal he
, - • -. I
some ohsetrtotiont i
taws alliwarOdi.
so.
Against tt - - - ea
Majority for the origistaf alheorirotet .1.-41
The original resolution was then put and carried.
The resolution respecting wheat meal and flour, viz.
" for every band being 1961 b. a duty equal in amount
to the duty payable on Ave bashehtof wheat,* was then
put by the Chairman.
Sir J. NEWPORT proposed as an amendrnenti that
the following words should be added td the resolution,
" and also a duty not fluctuating of 4s. on each barrel
of 196 k,. at all times" The Hon. Member said, that
he made this proposition in order to confer a benefit on
the tower classes. If grain were imported, the worst
and middlings went to support the poor ; when
flour was imported, it was of the best sort, an I con-
sumed exclusively by the rich. In the first instance,
our own poor derived the benefit ; and in the latter, the
poor of other countries derived it. He was quite sure
that the House would not give away this benefit to to-
reign countries.
Mr. LEWIS called the attention of the Committee to
the scarcity which prevailed in 1801, and hoped that
they would not adopt any system, but one thst would
work in all seasons, in seasons of plenty as well as
scarcity. If they did, it would certainly break down.
Millers, from the very nature of things, possessed a
monopoly. He knew it to be a fact, that during the
great scarcity in this country, when the quartern loaf
was at 221 d. some large purchases of floor had been
made, the market price of which would have brought
the loaf to only 18d. This was the open competition
price. It would pot, therefore, De wise to shut up the
trade in BOW; by charging a high duty on that article.
The Hon. Member refetred to a fact sta:ed in one of
the P.olutmentary reports, of a merchant who, in 1801,
imported a quantity of wheat, which was found to be
so hard he could not get it ground in this country, and
was obliged to send it abroad and reimport it as flour.
Mr. IRVIN(S thought that it Ischaved the Committee
to consider the proposed measure well before they
adopted it, since it was calculated to interfere with a
trade in which large capital was embarked. He should
support the amendment of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. SPRING RICE considered the propcsal of hit
Right Hon Friend (Sir John Newport) to be fair and
moderate. He earnestly prayed the Committee to adopt
the amendment, and not to throw difficulties in the way
of these Resolutions being carried into a law, the re-,
jection of which would be, in his opinion, one of the
most fatal events that could happen to this country.
Mr. C. GRANT opposed the Amendment. He coo-,
sidered that the duty on flour ought to be in proportion
to the duty upon the quantity of wheat which would I
produce the barrel. Hitherto, there bad been a dispro-,
portion in favour of foreign flour, which this Resolution
, went to remove. He chewed that there would be a
protection given to flour of the home manufacture to,
the amount of 20 or 25 per cent. which he thought no
one could say was too little. With respect to the Eng-
lish millers, it was preposterous that they who had the
monopoly of grinding fifteen millions of quarters an-
nually, shotild come there and complain that some
hundred or two hundred thousand quarters, at the most,
would be introduced from foreign countries. He did not
wish to speak harshly of classes, but he must say, that
the millers had always been alive to their own interests,l
and, in many cases, hid found means of enforcing them I
with much Rigour. He therefore thought it would not
be wise to remove fhe check afforded by the power of
importing foreign flour. Thy proposed alteration would
in fact amount to a prohibition ; and as the prohibition
had been swept away, although by accident, he thought
•it would be extremely unwise to restore it. The ques-
tion was not, whether they should give protection to
the flour of British produce, but whether it was not sot-
ficiently protected already. American flour was the only
article from which the floor of Ireland had any thing
to apprehend, and against that it was impossible for
Irish flour to have a more efficient protection than
it already possessed. • The Right Hon. Gentleman
then referred 'to some papers, horn which he chewed
that the protection given to flour, according to the pro-
posed scale, was greater than the protection on wheat.
In considering the question as one ef a political nature,
he could not forget the state of America, and that the
additional duty proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet
would amount to an absolute prohibition of the flour of
that country. He should not press this part of his ob-
jectioo further, but he was sure be should sufficiently
appeal to the judgment of the House by the brief alto.
sion he had made to it. These were the reasons why he
should oppose the Amendment.
Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that a lathe' protesting
duty had been added upon American flour imported'
into our West India Islands.
Mr. W. WHITMORE thought the House must be
perfectly satisfied with the statement of his Right Hon.
Friend. He denied that there was any exclusive pres-
sure of taxation upon the manufacture of flour in
Ireland which entitled the millers of that country to
peculiar protection.
Mr. MOORE called upon the House to protect the
milling interests of Ireland. He thought that the mann-
facture of flour, if not created, had been nurtured by
the state of things which had prevailed in Ireland with
the authority of Government, and that therefore it was
entitled to the protection which he claimed for it.
Mr. Secretary PEEL expressed his intention to sup-
port the original Resolution proposed by his Majesty's
Government.' He acquiesced in that Resolution re-
specting the ,barley, because he felt that no ground had
been offered fur a departure from it. What objection
could there be to apply that Resolution to Ireland,
which promoted the interest of England ? - It bad a
tendency co place this country higher with respect to
prohibition than she had ever been. His Right Has.
Friend had said the quarter of wheat would only pire.
duce 5131b5. of Sour, but in point of fact it would
hfipaoroddurutcaiemke that false assumption be
imported into
s . a n
protection.dtthis
couTnhtreyqaboanrteitynoof
proper.foreiga
pons36rttehl
Lion to the foreign wheat, and yet they were asked
to depart froth the principle knows to be best in
law for the purpose of fixing, an undeviating rigid
duty of ss. Whatever might be the combusation
among millers in this country, there was to be a fixed
duty of 4s. That proposition could not be ad
Ii was said the United States would send over lie:odr:
In answer to that remark, the Right Hon. Gentleman
was ready to say it.would look like a narrow feeling at
the part of Great Britain to make a total exclusion of
'American flour. The policy which Might dictate such
a measure would produce an injury to the totUlt/y.,

thirds of

.k.maivo the nwatt;n was made, but if the contrary ws• the saw, grows on two thirds of the lane
• it ought to be Imanght forword immediately. He re- abnaW taMpurt the A mendmem.
Om Ssilar-. commended Ministers to,tutn the matter in their minds. CoIonsi,GRAHAM made i
lima 'and to sire' their decision, not that night, but 0-mor- favour of the Lapdtd.lntorest.
, •
1 she lb rt./ or the .nest -day. If pat decision should bt in lb. OPlitatiftee thal invideli. *bee 1
ill , ittour of the appointolait of ommittoe. it might be For thne it e Anutodentia -
Arli -
Immediately nominated, and t subject would then be .ad majwity for the meg; Atim
mot from calmly and dispassionately inyestipted. The original resolution wa. ti
owners. General GASCOYNE obstir:l4, that if Ministers in-
..The resolution
--t
t....:- respeictng whe
•