Star.
London, England, 1810-04-17 00:00:00

PUIVILEGL

Mr. WALLACE said he rose, not for the purpose
of making any formal complaint, but to awaken the
attention of the House to what he conceived a great
disrespect to it and one of its Members. He would
not now argue on the importance of the people being
made acquainted with the proceedings and the senti-
ments of their Representatives in Parliament, but if
the matter was permitted, it was incumbent on those
Gentlemen who reported the debates, to give them
with impartiality and fidelity, that the public might
n't be deceived, and the Members misrepresented.—
He was ready to allow for the defects, the difficulty,
and the want of convenience ; but he held in his hand
a morning paper, in which the speech of an Honour-
able Member (Sir John Anstruther) delivered during
the debate on an Hen. Member's letter to the Speaker,
was grossly perverted ; and he also complained that
a combination had been entered into not to give the
speeches of two Right Hon. Gentlemen in the news-
papers, because it was said they spoke with disrespect
of those Gentlemen. He made these observations
without the concurrence or knowledge of any of the
Members to whom he alluded, and he merely wished
at present to hold out what, he said as a warning, and
to have recourse to some strong measure, if the evil
was not corrected.

Mr. TIERNEY said, lie wished to stand clear of having sug-
gested any notice whatever of the subject alluded to by the Hon.
Member.

Mr. WORTLEY thought that if some other newspaper took up
the matter, this combication would be brolva through.

The S PE AKEIt here interrupted the conversation, ivy obierviag,
that the present conversation was irregula-.
CONFINEMENT OF MR. GALE JONIES.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose, in conseqUence
of his notice of a motion for the discharge of Mr. Jonee
fom his confinement for a contempt of that House.
Though the opinions which he (Sir Sarnuel) had ex.
pressed on the legality of the warrant under which Mr:
Jones nowsuffered were still perfectly unaltered byany
thing which he had heard, his present motion was to
rest on the plain and single ground that the punishment
had been sufficient for the offence, such as that might
have been. He understood that when a similar motion
was made on the 12th of last month, some
ei-
, sons objected to it, it founded on reasons which r
could not acknowledge. It was a principle of that mu•
tion that the power exerted in the commitment was
illegal; but he (Sir Samuel) though far from giving
his assent to any thing that could countenance thy` '^
doctrine then held, would not now lose a single
vote by any onneceslary resort to arguments which
had excited the opposition of any Member of the
House. Yet in this he did some slight violence to his
own wishes. He had wished to have had an opporm.
nity, and the present might give a fair one, of restating
some of those opinions which he had formed only after
serious thought, had delivered with much and anxious
sincerity, and which he still retained as fixedly and
firmly as ever. Those opinions, falling into the usual
handling of all sentiments deliyered by men in public
capasities, had been much misrepresented; and it was
a wish which he could with difficulty deny himself, to
have justice done to them. But his object was now of a
higher rank: a bigherand more serious feeling than any
thing connected with the vindication of one like him.
self, ought to influence him. He was to speak for the
liberty of a British subject; and to that duty and that
object he felt that all others must gin way. He could
discover but one objection to the meamre which be
was about to propose, and that from the practice of
the House in requiring a petition to be presented at
their bar, acknowledging the justness of the punish.
ment, and expressing contrition for the offence. It
might be a fair object of question whether there was
any thing in the principle of that House, which utterly
prohibited a spontaneous act of justice; or whether it
was beyond the privilege of any Member, to suggest
that act of justice? It might be asked, whether such a
requisition as an acknowledgment of the offence, wa;
strictly within the power of-any court dealing in jus-
tice ? But the House would feel that their power wa;
to be exercised with less violence to human feelings
that that of any other jurisdiction; and that if they
were powerful—if jurisdiction had been entrusted to
them by a people loving their liberties—if they had
obtained a right to inflict punishment,' that infliction
r was to be the rarest exercise of their strength they
were to feel the solemn pledge under which they stood,
the great responsibility under which they were charg-
ed to administer justice tempered with mercy. If this,
principle was true, it war not to be permitted, it was
not to be justified, that the House of Commons, or
any human tribunal, should extend its punishment or
its power to the mind. It was not given to the strength
of man to reach the mind of man, and it should not be
aimed at by his ambition of rule. The thoughts could
not be forced: there was a vigour and spring there,
which at once defied and eluded human dominion.—
The greatest tyranny, the most impotent tyranny,
was that which attempted to influence the work-
ings and forms of the intellect ; it was an attempt
which justice never made, and which was never made
by power but to its own defeat, There was one spe-
cies of Court, which might be an exception—those
spiritual tribunals which were the fruits of a-dark ag
and equally adverse to the spirit of law and of religion.
Their justice might now with safety be called perse-
cution ; subsisting before the day of reformation, they
were guilty of the crime and the folly of attempting to
coerce the mind, demanding confessions of guilt where
the resistance of the accused was the firmness of vir-
tue. This attempt ended as all undue exercise of autho-
rity must end ; those tribunals, unable to make con-
verts, were found to be content with making hypo.
,crites. (Hear, hear.) Opinion must be free, or there
could be no such thing as rational liberty. Supposing,
`for the sake of the argument, that the most ground-
less opinions were to be sent abroad : he would take
the instance of a man asserting that the best form of
government was a pure Monarchy, and that the
Houses of Lords and Commons were an idle excres.
cence ;—would any Member of the House think that
nothing could atone for the opinion, but the self-de.
gradation of the author that bitterest and most into.
lerable extreme of punishment; in which a man is
forced to be the instrument of his own shame ?—that
he should be forced to do that stern and cruel violence
to his settled sentiment, to break in upon the opinion
which he had formed with strong sincerity, and that
they should give him that last and lowest pain which
man can feel, a degradation in his own esteem ? If
this power were in the House, it was the most enor.
mot's that was ever confided to man, and could not
'be admitted without the most undeniable proof of the
trust. But if this practice of petitioning had been
frequent in former times, it should be remembered
how little such times could be formed into precedents
for this later age. Better times had succeeded; a
more generous spirit had been brought into action;
the feeling of the world was ameliorated and softened
It was surprising, on looking over the records of
yeirs not very distant, to see in what extraordinary
degradations that House seemed to think its autho-
rity most honoured. Not fifty years since, in the case
of Alex:inier Murray, that person was ordered on
his knees to receive the Speaker's reprimand at the
bar, but whiei he refused to submit to. In the
case of the Cornwall Election, two men of respec-
ttable rank, one of them a Baronet, were forced
not merely to receive the reprimand on their knees,
but to acknowledge their offeni
fore the Judges and the
been now two months in
when he had been 21
Lion was mentioned in the

!iv offence at the assizes, be
county. Mr. Jones had
n jail. On the 12th of March,
days in prison, and his situa-
Ile House, it had been ihaughc

f

iy many Members, that it a petition were then pre-
s2nted, he should be discharged. He had since that
ime suffered five week.' imprisonment for the neglect
01 petitioning, and if this etiquette was not thought
..dy purchased off by his additional suffering, was
h io •ger on still in jail, unless, by the pressure
misfortune on his mind, he was broken down into
the untruth of acknowledging that he had given up
his prisciples, and was guilty, when he still believed
himsel. to he innocent ? Was it the only alternative
of this concession th:it he must remain in confinement
till July ? And for what was this severe privation of
1:!, •rtv For all adherence to what he deemed the
truth ! Allowingthat. Mr. Jones had entertained erro-
neous opinions of the extent of their privileges (and
fir the moment he (sir Samuel) would allow them to
be erroneous)—supposing that person to have been in.
Sueneel by any of those motives, which, after all, made
yip a large part ofthe decision of the wisest among men;
respect for other a inhority, a long habit of cherishing
certain feelings, and fixing his eye upon certain views
of truth —a kind of vague conviction that the liber-
ty of man is implicated in the matter of dispute ; or
even if his error arose from the misuse of the lights
which he had, if he had misunderstond precedents or
mistaken principles; was there no provision against
his error, was there no remedy in the State-herbal for
his malady, but Imprisonment ? Was this punish-
ment, Whicls.might be made the most severe of all
visitations, to be inflicted for difference of Opinion ?
And, in the end, was the sufferer to be released, not
by the justice of the House, but by its want of
power? Supposing Mr. Jones indissolubly wedded
to his opinion, an obstinate heretic, was it to be justi-
fied that the worst of all the kinds of punishment, in-
definite punishment, (4 the hope deferred," that op-
presses and hinds down the whole man more heavily
than any infliction which he can measure with his eye
and prepare to encounter, should be les•loOse upon
'him for such an offence as that which he had corn-
rnitted ; or that the homage of Mr, Jones, a man
in humble life, should he thought the only thing that
could appease the angry pride of the House ? This
was not to be persisted in ; but, let the feeling of
offendei dignity be wh it it might, there were supe-
rior feelings which the House would acknowledge.—
Those were the feelings of justice, the feelings of rea-
son, the feelings of that great compund of justice
'and virtue, humanity. The Honourable Member
'concluded a most eloquent speech, by moving that
Mr. Gale Jones should be summoned to the bar of
the House on Tuesday, and then discharged.
Mr. Secretary RYDER.—Much as he admired the
speech of the Honourable Member who had just spo.
ken, he must dissent from him on the main question.
If it had been necessary for the.ofeniing person to
deny his opinions at the Bar, he (Mr. Ryder) might
admit the reasoning of his Hon. Friend (Sir S. Ra-
nsil] y), but itswas now common-place ; and as it did
not touch the point, must pass away with other elo-
qvient effusions of the same kind. The only thing
required was a Petition, praying for release, and ex-
pressing contrition for having incurred the displea
sure of the House. The present question was mere-
ly, if there was any thing in Mr. Jones's case to au-
thorize a deviation from the custom of requiring a
submission before the House ? He might retain his
opinions, but he was only asked to do now what he
did when he was already at the Bar—( Hear, hear,
from the altimition).—An Hon. Gentleman had been
applied to present • a petition on his behalf—(Near,
hear.)—This circumstance did not materially alter
the case. Mr. Jones might have been let out a month
ago ; bat he remained in prison, to brave the House,
and after proving them wrong, force them to devi-
ate from their usual practice, and dismiss him with-
out the proper submission at their Bar.
Lord A. HAMILTON felt peculiarly anxious
that no doubt of his-sentiments should be left on this
occasion. The doctrines of the Right Hon. 'Secretary
were not of an order to heal the breach that was be-
tween the House and the Country. The person whose
ease was now under consideration had done nothing
derogatory to the privileges of the House. Breach of
Privilege was a general cry, and undefined cant, which
never struck his ears without raising a suspicion Of
those from whom it came. Reporting the debates of
the House had been idly construed into a breach of
privilege, and at length it was peaceably acquiesced
in as an advantage. But he was glad to find that no
Appendage had been hung to the question of the
release. He (Lord A. Hamilton) had stated his
opinion when the question first came before the House;
he then thought that the House wandered strangely
from its due course when it condescended to take up
a private quarrel ; the offence was gives by Mr.
Jones to Mr. Yorke—an individual against an indivi-
dual. As the quarrel was private, it ought to have
been determined between private persons. The House
occupied as it should be, in the great concerns of the
*Empire, should not have stooped from its dignity to
pour the weight of its vengeance on a man of whom
they knew nothing more than that he had turned Mr.
Yorke, the Teller of the Exchequer, to ridicule. By
the unfortunate' notice which the House was led to
take of that quarrel, a train of circumstances, some
disgraceful, some most disastrous, were drawn on,
till the privileges of the House began to be looked
on by the people as instruments of danger, and ques-
tioned by even themselves as rights of usurpation.—
Perhaps the circumstances under which Mr. Jones's .
irritation arose, were such as might justify no slight
popular discontent. A great expedition, the greatest
that ever left a British port, had failed—the Officers
threw the blame on each other—the Ministry came
to open violence upon it—the people demanded an
enquiry into the causes of that most dreadful cala-
mity—the House promised it ; public expectation
was awakened, and waiting to see justice done. The
trial began, and in tantly the gstes of that great tem-
ple of national jiistice were shut. 'Was it not natural
that the excluded people should at least express their
surprise ? that wandering round the courts of that
'Tempt=, they should be dissatisfied with hearing only
the broken scattered responset that might be perio-
dically issued out from the shrine, to feed and to
elude popular anxiety ? Admitting that such a feel-
ing v:as wrong, it was natural ; and Mr. Jones was
only one, among many, whO felt displeased at the
act 4nd its author ; but his offence was not levelled at
the Mesa. In what predicament would the House
1,,e placed by the doctrines of the Right Honourable
Secretary ? He admitted that the Petition was
profrosed—(Hear, hear,)—and did he actually think
ia. becoming the dignity cst that House, SA Pleasure

.

Its punishments, not. by the gitanu
not by the natural principles of
power of the offender to hold out
making the wisdom of the House
batant of the folly of an individtu
good sense to depend upon Mr. ;
An adjournment might be so m;
the prisoner for any indefinite .time; and was this to
be called only A fit punishment, for want of facility
in the accused person ? With respect to Parliamen-
tary privileges, he (Lord -A. Hamilton) revere&
them, as they, ought to be revered, in the mild exer-
cise of their power ; but if that power was strong, its
use ought to be delicate; and to make their privileges
what they ought to be in point of vigour, they must
be used in that forth, from which they should never
have been diverted in point of principle. They should
be used for the protection of the rights of the people.
Mr. FULLER thought the qUestion lay within a
narrow compass. To his mind it appeared to be only
whether the prisoner had been sufficiently punished or
not? If he had been sufficiently punished, why were
they to have him called to their bar to acknowledge
his offence? That House had nobly cut up the. Pre.
rogatives of the Crown, which had been previously
undefined : it now became their duty to reduce to
some definite state its own privileges, which even the
Right Honourable Member in the Chair would find
difficult to understand. They were bound to define
their privileges, and not continue to commit during
the session. It was no matter whether a party were
committed for three days or three months, as no-
thing could be more absurd than to commit with-
out any certain rule to go by. The subject had a
right to have some measure of offences and punish-
ment established. They ought to enact a Magna
Charm of Parliament, as they had the great Charter
of their Civil Liberties and Rights--

" Aquam memento,
" I(i:bus in arduis,
" Servare nientem !"
As it was admitted on all hands that Gale Jones had
been sufficiently punished, he ought to be discharged.
If they should not enact some statute on the subject,
he was determined, whenever a question arose for a
commitment, to vote for the commitment for a cer-
tain period. If their privileges should be left in their
present vague and undefined state, no man's house
could be safe. But as heahad been already very se-
verely reprimanded for a breach of these privileges,
in order to avoid being led too.far by irritation, he
should read from a paper what undefined privilege
could do. The Honourable Member then read, that
such privilege could put it. in the power of a nervous
Chairman of a Committee to call upon the Speaker
.for protection—it could give the Speaker the power
to order a person to withdraw, and to the House that
of ordering him into custody, without allowing him
the opportunity of hearing the charge against lum—
it could give the power of •keeping him in confinement,
to the great affliction of his family, and so as neatly
to cause the death of some of his connections ; and
then it could give the power of reprimanding the per-
son for in offence:which, at Common Law, would
not be punished by a fine of five shillings. If that re-
primand should go down to posterity upon the Jour-
nals, it would be more injurious to the House than to
the individual, in the minds of the people.
Lord FOLKSTONE wished to set the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary Ryder) right, as
to what he had stated to be the practice of the House
respecting petitions Tbat Right Hon. Gentleman had
said, that it was not necessary for Mr. Gale Jones to
acknowledge his offence, or retract any opinion in his
petition, in order to his being discharged, but merely
to state his regret for having incurred the displeasure
of the House. To shetit that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was not correct in this statement, he had only
to refer to a petition which he remembered to have
presented a few years since, from a Mr. Drake, who
had been ordered into custody for prevarication in his
evidence at the bar, for having told lies and-Incredi-
ble stories, respecting himself, during his examina-
tion' as a witness before that House. That petition
he had brought up, and, when it had been read, he
moved that it be laid on the table ; but was thee
informed by the Speaker it was contrary to the
established practice of the House to place any such
petition on its table, unless the petitioner submitted to
the authority, and craved the mercy of the House, at
the same time acknowledging the justice of the sen-
tence. Some days after he had presented this peti-
tion, however, it was found that all that Mr. Drake
had said was perfectly correct. The consequence
was, that Mr. Drake having been committed for sup-
posed lies and prevarication, was suffered to remain
in confinement, because -he would not acknowledge
that to be false which was afterwards found to be
true. Though he had not remained long in such
confinement, the Parliament having been dissolved in
three or four days after, yet that did not alter the
nature of the case. Having stated this case, and the
decision of the Chair upon it, he was authorised to
asstnne it to be the invariable practice of the House
to require a petitioner to submit to the mercy of the
House, and acknowledge the justice of his sentence.
As the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ryder), there-
fore had stated that, if that were the practice of the
House, he shonld vote that Mr. Jones be discharged, .
he had a right to expect that the Right Honourable
Gentleman would be as good as his word, and vote
for the motion of his Honourable and Learned F7iend,,l
whose common places, as represented by the Riglit
Honourable Gentleman, appeared to him to consist
of most able, eloquent, and conclusive arguments.—
Upon
the whole, he was convinced that Mr. Jones
oughtlo be discharged, and should therefore vote fur
the motion.
Mr. CURWEN observed, that the able speech of
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who brought
forward this motion, was in itself sufficient to recom-
mend this important question to the most serious con-
sideration of the House. The case of Gale Jones at
present seemed to him to. be, not that he should be
continued in confinement for contempt, but for the
obstinacy arid pertinacity with which he persisted in
declining to submit himself, by petition, to the mercy
of the House. Though he had not been present on
the occasion, he was well informed that Mr. Jones had-
respectfully submitted to the authority ofehe Hi,use,
when first brought to the bar. That having been the
:case, then, he would ask, whether the House would
punish him for that obstinacy to which he might hive
been worked up by others, in abstaining from apply-
ing for his release by petition ? The House on this
(ACCUiQn ,should leave out of its coasideration every,


ling Mr. Jones, or the circurnstaeces lot shrnents that the country was to be saved. When.
have prevented him from petitioning. ever peace may come, it would be a serious question
• would, do what became its own dignity, how far such reduction could be effected ? but the
persuaded that it would be more honour- difficulties attending that question were only to be
as well as gain them more respect from removed by a strong, firm, and efficient Adminis.
discharge this man than to continue tration, combining all the talents in the House. For
.intent. There might, and he had no doubt, the propriety of forming such an Administration, he
there were persons who would attribute such an act to amid appeal to the House whether they thought it
motives dishonourable and base. But . were they to could under any circumstances of difficulty be driven
regard such feelings ? ' Were they to neglect to do a from its bias to the public interest by any minor core
duty, because wicked men might ascribe bad motives siderations ? Such an Administration coutlhdenoctol
to them ? He concurred in all the sentiments of the formed from either side of the House. It was the
Honourable and Learned Member who brought for- . duty of the Members of that House to attend to this
ward this question ; he was persuaded that it would great subject ; and of all those who bad high charge.
be cruel to call upon a man to retract or renounce ters in that House, and great weight as well as stake
opinions, the truth of which he might conscientiously: in the country, to unite for that Important purpose,
believe. Such a principle was unknown. to the laws If such a body should declare themselves,
of this free country ; at least, he knew of no law that try would soon rally round them, and then their pri.
called fur such a renunciation. If the dignity of that vileges would be cheerfully acquiesced in, as privi.
1 House required that such a principle should be acted leges given solely for the interestofthe 1
1 people..--
upon,e...—
upon, he should be the last man that would vote for
..The. Bill he had the . honour to bring forward last
the discharge of Gale Jones without complying ; year, though abused by some and ridiculed by others,
with the established forme. Whatever might have had yet, he trusted, produced some good, and would
been his opinion as to the nature of the offence, as lead to that gradual and temperate reform which WAS
the House had decided it to be a breach of its privi- the most difficult to he accompllis(du.rnOiflitnhteaßsipgohst.
leges, it was not for him to dispute the propriety of Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of
le
such decision. But the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. the Exchequer) he was always disposed to speak
• Secretary Ryder) argued the propriety of requiring a handsomely ; but be could not o
petition, on the ground of precedent. Could not that sessed of force and vigour enough for times like these.
1 Right Hon. Gentleman perceive, that if there were The hopes of the country, he should repeat, depend.
j any value in that argument, he might on the same ed altogether upon a combination of all the talents
ground refuse his assent to the discharge of Gale and respectability in that House. Having stated thus
Jones, if he did not appear at the bar on his knees, much upon the general situation of the country, he
as in the case of Murray, alluded to by the Hon. and should revert. to the question before the Hotice ; and
Learned Gentleman on the floor ? Whatever might on this he should only say that he would vote for the
be the course of precedents heretofore, this was a time , liberation of Gale Jones, conceiving that such a mee.
j when he was of opinion the House ought to make a : sure would not compromise the honour, the dignity,
different precedent. He was determined to stand by .cr the character of that House.
the House in every thing that was necessary to its : Sir THOMKS TURTON was of opinion that
dignity ; but he did not think that would be best con.; the individual to'whom the motion referred, had suf.
suited by protracting the punishment of an individual, fered punishment enough.* If he had, he would ask
• becatise he would not apply for his enlargement, by •, whether it was consistent with their dignity not to pat
subniitting to acknowledge the justice of his sentence, an end to the punishment ? The offence for which
and craving the mercy of the House. At this criti- he had been imprisoned had existed for several years,
i cal •
and awful period, it was his opinion that the i and might have been borne either by the House er
I House should not shut its eyes to the real state of the : any individual Member. These debating Societies
country. He was one of those, who, so fir from ; had been held for several years without having been
i
i thinking, as had been some time since stated within taken notice of ; and Gentlemen might recollect to
their walls, that that House. in point of reputation, I have seen the names of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, men
I had not a leg to stand on, he was fully and satisfac- i great in mind, and great in character, placarded in
1 I torily persuaded that such an aspersion was absolutely 1 the same manner as. in the instance which had been
Ifalse. He was bound, nevertheless, to admit that they ! complained of. He had had no doubt that the ph.
Idid not possess that high degree of public confidence I cud was a libel ; but he thought that it was un.
which ought to belong to the rnt .If by forbearing to i worthy of the Honourable Member to notice it. But
discuss their real difficulties, the bald remove them, I when it had been brought under the observation of
1 that might be a reason why they should pass them : the House, it must have been punished, though not 1
over without notice. But, in his opinion, the only I severely. When Jones had expressed contrition cf
true way of averting danger was to look it in the face, I his offence at the bar, it was his oeinion that it would
and these were times which imperiously called upon j have been most consistent with the dignity of the
them to meet every difficulty with fortitude and spirit. j House to have discharged him. As a difference of
eThe great bulk of the nation, he was convinced,.was ; opinion prevailed upon the subject, both in and out
firmly attached to elle Constitution and the Govern- of the House, it would have well become that House
ment, and ready to make all the sacrifices which the I not to appear to punish the offence vindictively. It
circumstances of the times might require. He was was scarcely to be expected, that a man convinced he
bound, however, to admit, that the country had many was right, could be brought to acknowledge himself
grievances to complain of ; and these that House was wrong. When he had last year moved for the re.
most particularly called upon to attend to and redress. lease of Genera.' Clavering, he was told that his ap.
Under this impression, it was with considerable satis- plication would be fruitless, unless General Clavering
faction he learned that an Hon. Member ( Mr. Brand) should, by petition, acknowledge his error, and sub.
had that evening given notice of a motion for a Par. mit himself to the mercy of the House. But Gene.
liamentary Reform. It was impossible-for any Hon ral Clavering would have submitted to rot in prison
Member to listen to the sentiments expressed out of rather than admit, what he was convinced he was in.
doors, and not be convinced of the necessity of some capable of, that he had been guilty of prevaricatioe
reform of the representation in Parliament. Iu order Then it was said that it was enough that the person
to shew how the feelings of the House and of the should say he was sorry for having incurred the die
country pointed out the expediency of adopting some pleasure of the House. But could any one suppose
measure fOr that purpose, he had only to advert to that he was not sorry for it ? As to the obstinacy that
the attention which was uniformly paid to every thing was imputed to hint, would not persecution or prose.
that fell tiom the Hon. Member for Yorkshire (Mr. , cution be likely to make any man obstinate ? But by
Wilberforce.) This mark of respect that Hon. Mem- keeping Mr. Gale Jones in confinement, would he be
ber receive 3 in a much .higher degree- than many likely to come out either a better subject or with
other Honourable Members, who, without meaning fewer partizans ? This was a case' in which they'
any thing offemive to that Honourable Member, might ought to make a precedent, if they had none to go
justly be compared voith him in every other respect. by. Why keep the man in prison ? Was there any
To what was this owing but to the nettiral weight thing in the temper of the times to induce the House
which must naturally belong to any thing coming to that course ? He could wish that the Learned
from the representative of fifty thousand constt- Gentleman had not brought forward this question at
tuents ? This shewed how necessary a Reform was, this time. Though he thought that they should not
which would give to the Members of that House the act under the apprehension of being thought afraid ;
representative respectability of the collective number I yet he would rather be suspected of fear than convic-
of their constituents. When he talked of reform, he ted of injustice. He should, therefore, perform an,
did not mean any of those wild and visionary theories act of justice to the individual, by voting for the mo-
which had so frequently been recommended in hitter tion of the Honourable andlLearned Member who had
times. His wish was to infuse into that House a greater so ably and eloquently recommended it to the Howe.
portion than it contained in its present constitution of The MASTER of the ROLLS thought there
the landed interest. Feeling as he did upon this were two questions whi required the consideratino
head, he could not but condemn that prodigality of of the House. First, whether the individual now the
the honours of nobility which had robbed that House subject of debate had suffered for his offence a measure
of so much respectability, without adding any thing of punishment commensurate with that offence ; ant
to the consideration of the other House set Pei liament. secondly, whether that being the case, there was or
There was another point also upon which he must was not to be found on the journals of the House any
express his most decided regret and disapprobation ; form or practice 'acted upon which would operate a,
namely, of that list which, upon the motion of the a bar to his discharge ? To speak of the latter point tli
Noble Lord, the Member for Westminster, had been Learned Gentleman confessed that he wished he was
laid upon their table. In fliat list of persons, lie vets much better acquainted with the history of that prao
sorry to find the names of persons without merits ;to rice than he was. He wished to be informed whether
perceive that pensions were granted to the relatives of there was any established order to be found against
persons who would and ought to be ashamed to take the discharge of a person under circumstances like
such paltry sums from the public pulse. It was by ;
Mr. Jones, or whether there was any uniformussg:
no means his opinion that if the whole of such pen- so as to justify the. refusal to discharge him . H.
sions were done away, they would in any material de- was unwilling to lock at the established usages, be
grec contribute to relieve the public burthens ; but cause the presumption was in their favour, but he
when it was found that such grants were taken by could not think they should be so far supported as to
persons connected with the higher classes, the cir- lead to plain and palpable injustice. In the.prese_t
cunistance would tend greatly to excite and continue 1 c*se, when it was stated that Mr. Jones could not be
that distrust of public men which had unfortunately I discharged until he had petitioned, and when, on
ls 'l.e
risen to a greeter height of late than ever. 'There 1 other hand, it had been also stated that he had made
was another circumstance mere immediately connec- I a confession of his offence, he must own that he was
led with their proceedings, which was likewise an oh- not prepared to follow in any inquiry into all those
jest of regret in the present situation of the country ; consequences which it had been stated might arise la
he meant that practice of personal crimination and re- the event of Mr. Jones not being discharged. Tfe
a iniiiiation which had too often lately disgraced their 3 Right Hon. Secretary had stated, that it was not ne
proceedings. The Chair, he was convinced, had • c essary, in the petition, to make an acknowledgolos
never been more ably filled, or its duties performed ''of the offence. Now he would wish to put a question to
with more dignity and satisfaction, than by the me- I the Chair on that point, to know whether that
. was
sent Speaker; yetle must observe that a great laxity the established usage, because, in that case,
.htsoote
had crept in of late, which brought public men into would be governed by it. For the sake of tl
ai
discredit. Though he was persuaded that there were ment he would suppose it was.
much integrity and talents on both sides of the House, titioning, the sentences of this House
he must be allowed to say, that the personal alterca. definite time ; the prisoner might present. ape oas2
ent, in order°
times to which lie had alluded had a direct tendency at an early period after his commitment, se
to lower them in the public estimation. His only . produce an eerly discharge, keithwresereprolteartto. pea_
wish was, that the House should be rendered as re- , throws into that petition thoasendexhperesrons onfasteer2.,
spectable ; and, though he thought every item of ; which he conceives will induce the House to
.ctoo:hl_
saving of importances yet it was not by subordinate ! with the prayer. Thus the practice
.of pet' hal.
retrenchments, but by the reduction of the great este. may have been introduced to obtain a dt*charr6'7'

tzie
antic,/ of tbc osvow. thin concerni
f jostic4: bui by, thin
1
tin his opinioni-,ikin • —ln ;that it
e to be tile i4lta'F and be was pe
ial, and forcing ' able to them,.
Jones's obstin .-;... the public, to
lanaged as to confine his imprisonm,

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igh nc
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