Star.
London, England, 1804-02-28 00:00:00

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tbonld not be adapted in common proceedings, and
abandoned on one of the yeateß in which the country
and the entsftitution could be placed. The queßion,
in his opinion, was not one of confidence in Minifiers.
The information which that Hoare had realise to ex-
peti, had a right to demand, mould have been de-
rived from the be* and higheß authority, and not
from thofe who give an interpretation of the Rate of
bis Majelly's health, differing from that which has
been given by his regular and acknowledged phyft.
cians. The country would be Meer Milled when
they faw Parliament duly and properly informed,
and exercifing that difcretion which coaftionionally
belongs to it.
The quellionmastben pot on Sir Robert Lawley's
motion, which was negatived without a divifion.

ty so
ry. He
rivial •
A C.V.

'. .t

11 '•4

votverseas.
Mr. T. GRENVILLE raid, that' if the pretest
feßem was followed op, he had no great opinion of
the (weer. of it. He was hindelf cal a Volunteer;
,but he felt that the fpirit already called forth, and
to seamanly maaifefted by the nation, he maR con-
fider as an efential ingredient in the general Carey.
XI that fpirit was properly kept up and encouraged,
the country may be deemed Invulnerable, but pet&
bly would not be fo upon the Oates hitherto died
upon. If the Volunteers were compelled, their fpirit
mug inevitably Baden, and the &Mance now to
be expeaed from them would be unattainable. In
his view of it, the pre eat Bill was objeaionable, in
the MI place, becaufe it changed the fereice from a
voluntary to a compulfory &nice ; and, in the fe-
tend place, becaufe it was about to Mena i what, by
the decifion of the Courts. was law already. What
was hope before would be now altered to fear : and
she Law Officers of the Crown, by =kill thenifelves
the arbasers. and referving the decifion in all cafes,
took speatihas what mould be the department of
the Goveroment. There were feveral confiderations
involetaHn die Neje& which he diould forbear to
ensign tir after the MB went through a Commit-
tee, mad then. if the febleadliould net be taken up
by Come Member more able than hitnfelf, and=
fang more weight thai be could patella to, be
move for a Committee of the whole Houle to take
the whole of the Volunteer Syftene into their delibe-
cation, end evert what may be the Walt of the
Houfe. He thought it a hardlitip-reareely to be en-
dured, that the Volinteers mould be fubjeli to cont•
pulfion, after all the factifimaqlsey had fo patrioti.
cally made.
Mr. Secretary YORKI was atteseptiag to Medi
the notice oldie Spenkele, when . I
Lord OSSULS., with the dual candid.'
lance on the smarm of a maiden &etch. was pee•
mined to have the priority. He Cam d be withal. Wee
permanent plan would be received to, that the need.
Pity df chafe periodical references to Parliament, on
the filled of the Volunteers, might be avoided. He
obferved, that many obfervations which be had in-
tended to fubmit. had been anticipated by the Right
Hon. Gentleman who preceded bins; and he adverted
to a legal abfervation formerly made by the Attor-
ney-General. on the imam falba, into which the
Volunteers had entered, no confideration baying been
by them received for the duties they had undertaken
to perform. With all its faults the fyfteoe Wane
advantage; an acedfion of military men aie ob-
tained much beyond what could have been expeaed.
in proportionto the limited population of there Masai.
Mr. Secretag YORKE raid, that baying already
fo often expreffed his fenttments on this fubjea to the
Houk, he Mold not detain them for any length of
time upon the pedant median, and the lerefo, as the
speech of the Right Hon. Member who preceded bins
famed to refer more to former bills, not now under
difention. than to the propofition immediately before
them. His will' was, that the sal may be futered
to go into a Committee. where he should be happy
to Gees to the lbggefiions of every Gentleman, aid
to all in any improvement that might be peopled i
for he did sot premed to recommend this as a cos.
plea fyftens of Volunteer Laws. as he knew that per-
&Sion could not be obtained but by deliberation and
experience. In the lail• Salon d Parliament, be
fisted that the needfity would wife for reconfidering
the meafare before adopted, but be by no means
pledged himfelf to bring forward any new meafure;
what he propofed was an amendment and gradual
improvement of the plan. During the rears, he bad
confidered the matter with all the attention he was
capable of bellowing on it, and the more he thought
of it, the more be was convinced, that the left
changes there were in it the better. What the pre-
fent Bill contained, be acknowledged to be reftriaed
to two ample objeas, but each of them dentist :••
R, That exemptions fbould not be confidered as an
uniform fyllem and, sdly, To remove doubts which
were heretofore entertained. There were the princi-
pal features of the Bill, as every thing elfe relat
ed to matters comparatively fuhordiaate. The only
pall'age in the Right Honourable Gentleman's (petal
valtich applied immediately to the quellion. was the
propriety of having the report of a preliminary Com-
mittee. He, however, confidered loch a thing to be
trinecetfary, if the fyllcm was approved 06 and that
it was fu be took for granted. after what had already
palled in Parliament ; nor did be allow much weight
to the eritieifmg now made upon it. He then went
Into a detail of what has already been before the
Public in former dikuirsons, namely. the principal
tnfons city the Volunteer Syllem was originally re
forted to. The leading reafon was, that the country,
vi the preknt crifis, had occafion for greater exerti..ns
thin ever had been before deemed neceffary, and tor
• (I. Pnee beyond what the regular eflablifbmetit was
t,ifric lent to fupply. He denied, however, his having
e.; Lod that the Militia Force of the United King
dom, now amounting to spo.oce men, could not be
aulgmented, particularly in Ireland, but thatit wasnot
t.41,1h1e of an angusentaticta equate to meet tbe dan-
ger. Asia the fyilem in general, it could sot be denied
Out the repeated efts palled. and the thanks given to
tite volunteers in the lad let tom, were, in every point
00 ',nil', a Parliamentary nmngnitioa tit. The o*aa
t.t this rytiem were, to replace the clefs men, who
would uherwife be required by the live-al defence
aft; and he was of opinion that Inch multitudes of
men could not be found ready loam forward as the
emergency by any other than the Volunteer Syßesn.
lapett to the eanaptioss. is *elk* Adt.dscy did
1114 el' end beyond the Sri ballot for the Militia, and
tvation was made is the Army al fteferve
~..rat &mild be entitled to exemption but fetch
as tv. re proved to have revisal, firmed the requifite
autob., of days before the sad of just i but though

• • ,
they Were to be vinare,' from the Bra, they were
not to enjoy that privilege in the fubfequent ballot
As to the impediment the meafure might be thought
to offer to the regular recruiting. he was fatiafied
that it would have quite a contrary effca ; for the Vo-
lunteers, fo far from being prevented from calling
either in the Line or Militia, were rather enceirraged
to do fo by the habits they acquired, and die pleature
which men naturally took in theii appearance under
aims. As inftances of the truth of this pofition, he
would date, that of the St. George's Volonteen,com-
pofed of about too° men, ninety-two entered into the
Navy. and 337 in the Regulars and the Militia. The
Norwich Volunteers alto, confiding of only 300 men,
it appeared from the returns, that twenty-five had
entered into the regular ferrite during the prefent
11 War. The next point he bad to advert to was that of i
tice noefination of the Officers in the Volunteer Cogs. i
sehieh had been osefidered under the two .viewe
the right, and the prudence of what bad been pap
rued. la tepee to the firft, he never conceived Ikat
they had, in general, any fuels right. He miaow*.
'edged that nranyof them had the tWto treomsisers4
their officers in the fire inflame, but not to renew them;
or fill up any vacancies that me mice,• and well
the raeresmoldition of their g deeds'
depended for its %Peri on the dikes don off Lard
Lieutenant, or the Secretary of State,: in layim,ik
before his Majefty for his approbatiort. Kven'ftit
allowance of recommendation was only ctinnived I*,
oft acquiefeed in as far as regarded eettain.old C.prg,
firth as the Light Houfe Artillery ; btit was not
vatted in the concoeion or formation of any of the,
modern!. Confidering the difcretion given to the
fdperior depattments, the claim of nomination
amounted to nothing, and the Volunteers themlidves
pidft be convinced of the impolicy of their attempt-
ing to exetcife it, in cafe, for indanee, that they
Mould be called out upon permanent duty. Looking;
at all the official documents, he found that to be the
floe of the cafe, and he came next to confider what
had been Paid in rdpee to their arms. This charge
he &mild answer by a comparifon between what was
done at prefent and the quantity of arms that had
been difirffsined upon former occafions. In *755.
the time of the feven years war, the quantity of',
arms in the Tower was 36,998 fiend; in the year
775, it was 98.48111 ; in 1792 it was 0,06 ; and the
quantity fappliedin the firft year oldie prefent war,
3Fe.346; fn .the firft three months were, toi,c94 t
pied In the total during the war 364,800 hod
of arms, exdofivirof pikes, &c. in addition to which
36,ocati *and in England. and, se.coo inlxelands had
been fitraffited by e Volunteers themfelves. ,From
this Reimport do auk may judge of the diligence.
iteieitY of the Ordnance Department. And
be came next &only to advert to what had been men-
tioneddthe induftry of Governmentin circulating the
opinion given by the King's Attorney General, re-
/piling the right of Volunteers to refign at pleafure.
That opinion he contended to be a legal deduEtion
from the whole of the-laws, but waited to know what
the Gentleman oppofite him would have Paid, had
he neglected. for the intention of the Volutiteen, to
have circulated that opinion after it had been given 1
though he would repeat his afenion. that be meant
to propnfe that licence in the prefent Bill, even had
the decifioa of the Court of King's Bench been dif.
ferent from what it was. As to the permanent pay
for eighty•five days ferrite, he acknowledged, that
in die fiat infiance, he thought it right to retrain
the ex penee of the payment of Adjutants. Whe-
ther.in that, be was right or wrong, the Houfe
would decide. It was a different queftion, and en-
tirely belonging to the judgment of the Military De-
partment ; when the Bill went into a Committee, he
hoped it would be duly. confidered ; but he was de•
firnos that Gentlemen in their improvements would
nut go too far ; nothing could be worfe than coer-
cion in fuch a fyftem, and he felt confident. accord-
ing to the principles upon which they were originally
refarted to, the Volunteers would be at all times
found ready to anfwer every call their country may
make upon them.
Mr. PITT did not think a queftion offuch extreme
importance ought to be taken up upon narrow limits;
for it was certainly competent to any Member, in his
review of the ruble& to examine the whole of, and
dike& bow far the fyftem was capable of anfwering
the end pivoted. In a crifis which involved the
dear& inters& of the country and the decilion of
which had been fo long fufpended. he would not true
to the declarations of any Minifters, but ref princi-
pally on this efential confederation—how much the
firfl impulfe which the country had received may be
made coeval with the fimilar Elate which gave it
birth, and whether it would lad till we could obtain
a peace that would be permanent. and founded on
a much better fecority than the laft, which proved
itfelf fo very delufive and evanefcent. He knew
that it was impoffible to decide upon the merits of
any fyftem, without bearing on thole other points of
defence which regarded our Militia and Regular
Force. He wnnld not, at fo late an hour, go into all
the minute points of that inter fling lubjeet, but con •
tent himfelf with fuch a general view as may, in future
Rages, enable Gentlemen to determine whether we
thould or not have moor& to that, which he mud
pronounce to be a new rra, in order to lay alide all
apprebentions of k vat and gigantic power, which
openly threatened to involve us in all the mifery and
defination which had already reached the greater
pan of Europe. The attention of the Houle (hould
he direeed to whether what had been already done
for that purpofe could be rendered more effeftual ?
It was not contended that the national volunteet force
was every way deferable. but Come were of opinion
that it may be differently framed and formed. But
in the general Rate of this commercial nation, it was
not to be difputed that any additional regular force
we might rails would be infofficient for permanent
defence. without the Volunteer aid of the country, or
enforcing compulfnry fervice. The next objed to
this was the mode and fyftem upon which fuch im•
mediate aid wps conduaed. The Hook was to con-
fider whether, with an enemy alma at our gate.
and, as he may fay, within (hot of us, we could
at relent venture to change that fyftem which had
already been adopted. In a few weeks, five or
fix at the mod. we had to taped from all the
!curets of intelligence he had any accefs to, and from
the declarations of the Miuiders themfelves. who
mud neceffanly have (opener means of information,
the root tralwandons attack that could he made by
the mot Ob.'s fury of ddperation. led on by the
molt imetengs malice and pavan.% anintofity.

• . . . . • . .
From what the ?dialers averred. k was obvious
that we could not now depend upon the efforts of
an armed pesfantry. If then the danger was In for-
midable, oar duty was to confider of what was to be
done in the interval I,and thotigh he did not think
any thing hitherto adopted otberwife than far then
of the vigour that ought to be difplayed on fuch an
occaftort, yet, he had no doubt that, notwithflanding
any accidental advantage that may occur in favour
of the enemy. England had no reafini to dread the
like of the coallioff. Under fuch circumflances, it
would nut be kilicieqprbarely to repel the invaders.
hut alto to leavegiperpetual example to pollerity of
what this countif-could do, withnut alliance, and
tingle handed, againa any foe that dared to men tee
its defiroftion. If any effort was oegleated to Gotten
the duration of the conteß. Parliament, the Govern-
ment, and the Nation would be highly culPable
for it was not Sufficient for us to be lure of being
victorious, when we know that the blood and valu-
able lives of Englifhmen were concerned in prevent-
ing the event from being at all procreated.—
We Should prepare what he thought would be bed
calculated to prevent the ficrifice of fo many
valuable lives, bat refpeaing st the fame time the
opinion of others, and without any particular at-
tachment to his own. In doing tl Gould care-
fully avoid mixing spy politics with fuch a queflion.
Hitherto henna contend that (efficient had not :seen
dyne for the permanent fakty of the nation. An ade-
quate inducement/sad not been held out for the Vo-
lunteers to acquire the
,dircipline that was neceffary;
and fit another Rep of the BM be would fogged his
Ideas, of that fulifißence. While on duty, whir-lamight
to be provided for thole who easy have occafioniml
it. He would now, however, remark in a cursory way,
that twenty days was notoriously inadequate to ena-
Witham to give that long attendance which ertfcipline
required, if they were expeded to be any thiog Woe
regulars. In the interval ethic/ insight occur ors few
weeks before the attack would be made, it was highly
weeeffin that every endeavour' Gould bt ured to
prevail on the Volunteers to make the Sell oh of it.
and when ardent efforts were caned for, in E
minds there would be found no refills:my. ;ens;
may be doaeletween this and the fominer, if Par-
liament trough' proper to give a moderate premium,
for exaMn t Gel for inflame as a marching gal-
ter auni.7l. a week for permanent Service. If the
6V-Should amount to one, two, or three hundred
d pounds, there ought to be no reluctance
worn the pude of the people Or the peefervation of
their lives, their pooperty. and even their exifience.
He then referred to a banner debate, in which an
°Nation was made to his reload of alloWing Field
Officers and Adjutants on pay td certain Corps, on
the ground that it would be difornable to them ;
but he did not fee how that obje6ion properly appli-
ed. when he limited the propolition to fuch as de-
manded it, and therefore could not be offended at
their demand being acceded to. It was alto
that fo many Field Officers could not be found or
(pared from the regular Service; but that was no
melba why they Skold not let as many as they
could. If the plan was artful, it ought to be follow-
ed, and perhaps Captains, or even Litnitmanu of
character, would be Sufficient to anfwer all the par
poles narked. They might easily, on the coati, even
without injury to the regular Service, he detached
from Some near dißrid; great good might be done in
the five or fix following weeks, and thesofficers would
be Rill upon their poll ; but he Should referee the full
difenfraon of that topic to a future Rage. Another
thing he Should propofe was, to hold oat (efficient in.
&icemen' to the Volunteers to be punenal in attend-
ance on their difeipline, to obferve Silence while
on drill, to keep thew anal clean, &c. Power Gould
alto be given to his Majeßy to enforce what the law
did not now admit of, fines for non attendance,
not by dißrefs, but b; redraint for three days.
or a Goner or longer time at difcretion. The Right
Honourable Secretary (poke of doing as little as
potable in alteration of the Volunteer. Syllem ; but
as to all that he propofed, they were themfelees
perfeely fenfible of the neceffity, and would not,
as Englifltmen, for ufeful redrsints, defers the ob-
jet% for which they affociated. As to the nomina-
tion of officers by the Corps. he was ready to allow
that it was only nominal, and retied principally with
the Lord Lieutenants and the canines of the Crown.
Yethe mutt confefs, iftheprivates were not fit to Domi-
nate, it feemed to him that the Commanding Officers
were lets fo ; but as to what had yet happened, it
only ibewed thofe occafiooal capricet, which mull
always be expelled from fuch immenfe bodies of men.
It was indeed, true. that the Volunteers narrowed
the fyllem of recruiting for the Regulars. Militia,
both permanent and fupplem ental. as alto the Army
of Referee; but by modifications, which would
fupprefs the pernicious fyflem of Crimping, ate. he
thought means might be found to remedy that.as well
as the deflrueive competition in bounties between
the different cervices. The population of the United
Kingdom was Sufficient to Supply an ample refouree
of the regular force which mull in future be kept
to meet that power with which She Gould war eter-
nally, by a moderate bounty in time of peace, and
an arrangement, the outlines of which he then
developed ; but in which we think it Intoned:try at
this time to follow him, as he engaged to proprle
his plan in detail on a future occalion. He knew,
lie Said, that he was not taking what may be
confidered as a popular ground, but a view to popu-
larity never influenced him in the performance of a
public duty. We mull have a great regular army,
if we wished to be powerful, and we mull be power-
ful, if we wished to preferve our prefent national
rank and Ration in the world. The people would,
no doubt, be thankful to PROVIDINCI for the means
and meafures which would preferve to them the dif-
ference between the moil fplendid and the moll de•
graded and calamitous fituation. He hoped. that,
on conficieratinn, no prejudice or narrow view to
economy would prevent the Houk from attending to
that plan of fortification in vulnerable points, which
was recommended by Officers of great military (kill
and experience. The efforts made for naval defence
in the prefent war were by no means commtnforate
with what had been done with unequal means during
the lag. He did not fay this from prejudice to any
man whatever. bat if the day Should occur in which
any point of onr toad Should be found undefended.
however painful the nth may be to him perfonallr, a
permanent duty would require to demand that Se-
vere refponlibility which they took upon thernklees.
The country looked not only to its gallium, but its

':....c.._.- "•=" • 1... ' 4
glory ; and what he fitid calif To IRS say, sot •
of menace, hut of atbnonition. • t'• To •ts. • * •
Mr. WIND HA M olifereed. thalftl=o/1/i Milk-
means of defence fur the euentry.* . fieteirary.;.
the Houfe fhculd Wan is view to-gbartatainft fad '
cure as well as prelate danger. It had been raid that .
the Volunteer Syßem did out prevent merillom go.
ing into the army, but certainly tenclfd ur. Withhold ,
them from the Army of Referve, which was a prior
eipal fotoce for the foPPIT of the army. Hostess:
urgent the calling danger might be, it was woe& ,
to overlook the danger of the next year or the yea*.
after. Why, theietore, perlift in' nuafures whieb,
mutt defiroy the recruiting of the army, and ate
create an evil, which all the difciptine of the Wha .
teers never could compenfate ? He thought elite ~
armed peafants, though not tfained to hatmlion ex- •
ereife, would make a very ufeful deftription of force. ,
If one intelligent officer was appointed to every twen• .:
ty men, they might be enspinyed with great itd7s. )
vantage. to annoy the enemy in various wa s.-•• i,
Such a force would in time become excellent :,•
infantry. He contended, that if the Volunteer
.t,
was continued. with all the exemptions. it met s,
continued at the expiate of counteracting the
~1
military fyftem of the countity. It was abler to kr ,
and flyers on inflames of Volunteers entering into the •
army '.. . that mull be the cafe ; for it was certainly one •
adianta of the Oben, that it tended to create a
min *it I and face Arndt the total
tare
of the • gdom time VolunteeF.S, it was not t ifing
that Many of the recruits obi fined by the r *ere
of that dettriptitni. Thit teemed to be an f oseat
of the fink kind as that which had. Wei bold set
with Vets" to the infurreeios in Iteliod.--Itrwaa:
Laid that 111 the Rebels were Roman Catheliiiet fi,, -,
Lae which* wai indeed moll likely to be col.
late& fine[ the greater part of the population dli
tansy/ wete Ron= Catholics. There lyres essitetsto ,
fidektuati wjth regard to the Volunteer Corps which*,
ought never to be overlooked, and that was. cheery 1
fertaas danger which was to he from at
body fo little [Ender military colt load beard.
though from report only, the circembinces. tda 411
turbos* of a very extraordinary nature:which toolt 1
place at Chefier. He would ark, whether a Volunteer"
Corps dal not alembic there in confrquenee of oar.
of their number being preyed, and threaten to break,.
open the jail if he was not tit at liberty—sadwise- :
ther the Magibrites did not give ap the meta,
under the apprehenfion that the jail would be broke
into, and an the pawners fet at liberty ?—He
would alto elk, whether any legal punintinent bad
been the contiguous of this outrage—(a cry of
Hear ! Hear I)—Let not Gentlemen repro& that
what he had faid proceeded from any fpirat of kyr .
lily. or any particular with to draw down vengeance
os the individuals in qattlion : on the contrary, h.'
was ready to admit that chore men had tufted under
a tpirit which he confidered generous ; but every
one acquainted with the theory of lawn, knew that
men were frequently punitive!, not for the motives
of their anions, but for the contecpsences of du&
anions. He &odd only fay, that whatever eked
be done in the mink cafe, in flosnareates the pa- .
ointment bad been hanging. The Houk would rr
coned a riot which took place tome years ago t not
againft a jail, not againft a hoofs under the Lag's
protection; but sputa a honk in which crimpthe moll unjub and befell of crimes. was praeifed.
Is would be recolleffed that a man was tried and .
banged for inbigating the populace to attack that'
honfe. He could- not help being furpfited to find that
all perfons who, in the cafe he alluded to, were the
loudell in their declamations on the nceeinty of prr
(erring the peace of fociety, ghouls, in the prefers
cafe, which waster more auctions, be entirely film.
He could conceive this to be (siting to nothing elf.
but that the Volunteers had obtained a 'leafy over
the Right Hon. Gentleman. The conditution of this
body was of a nature which could nut fail to' excite
great alarm in every reffefting mind. It was preg-
nant with the • ma 'dangerous confequencei. in the;
cafe of a fcarcity. or even on the event of a General
Eleniqn. He would alit, whether it might not hap;
pen that the Volunteers would yet up Candidates of
their own ? The general role of fending the raker,
out of a town could not be applied to them—for that
would be to fed the lowa eat of 4141 It Wilkes
held out that this fyilem was calculated to refolve at
lift into a regular and well difciplined force. It was
Paid that men would firft be Volunteers, then Mi.
lids, and then Troop of the Line. This means of
obtaining a regular force. reminded him of the pro-
grefs which anatomißs riefcribe to take place in of-
fiScation. There was firs siseadiraw, then cartilage. and
tall oral! Be.o It was erroneoufly fuppofed. that
the Volunteer Syftens tended to create a military
fpirit in the country ; but that was a millake, a mi-
litary fpirit was to be preduced, net by having a
numerous force, but by having an army as excellent
as pollible. In France, and thole countries moil re-
markable for military chary:ter, it was not the fart
that every man was a !Adige.
Lord CASTI.EREAGH fupported the Bill. He
quoted the opinion of Dutneurier in praife of the
Britith Volunteers, that General having declared
that he confidered them in every refpelt as efficient
a defctiption of force rs that with which he drove
the combined armies out of France. and gained
the battle of Jemappe. The rioters of Chatter had.
his Lorillhip Rated, been difiniti,nl from their
corps, and the Attorney General had been dirsaed
to inflittite a criminal profecution ag tind them.—
His Lordfhip concluded with a comparative view
of the force or the navy at the indent mumeet, and
at different periods of the late war. The general re.
fult was. that at prelent we had of (hips of the line.
frigates, and (loops at t. folic manned and in retro:es
whereas, in tl.e comfit of the late war we had not an
equal naval force until fu late as 1795. To this de.
femiptien of force were to be added twenty fail fur.
ni(hed by the Eart India Company, and ten fail Rs-
timed by the Trir.ity Houle at the month of the
Thames. The finall craft in anual fervice on the
coatis of Brits a, am-Jollied to 6cja ; that on the
coati of Ireland to ;37 ;‘i hi-.h, with 373 now arm-
ing, would atigrn,n; i itr flotilla 1112 weals below
the rate i f nor; s. The number of frames; actually
muttered on board cur fleet contilleJ ofor7.coa, and
thrt of the marines to I 1.973.—1 t welds( third year
of the late war brit:or:the kansen and swings raagasill
the carne humh.r.

Mr. PITT explained.—Meet coos ntlesidell
we old be necefery before be was relished us saw
point in qacilioa. The anagaiiias