Star.
London, England, 1810-02-01 00:00:00

there wai a clause

to revoke an Act d
BATHURST
Bill ; and. reave was

THE W.
Lord PORCHE,
do issue his warrant

General Sir Eyre Coote, _ Hope, _
others of the Generals and Staff Officers
.employed
on the Expedition to the Scheldt, to attend the
sitting of the Committee of the House on Friday next..
—Ordered.
The Noble Loid also moved, that a Message be-
sent to the Lords, requesting their Lordships per-
mission for JAMES', Earl of ROSSLY N, to attend the sit-
ting of the said Committee on Friday next.—Ordered.
Also, that Sir HOME POPHAM, and Gen. Griosve- '
NOR, Members of that House, be requested to attend
in their places on that day.—Ordered.
Lord PO RCHESTER again rose, to ask his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, whether they had in contemplation
any particular order of proceedings to be adopted on '
this inquiry, or whether they had any objection to
' carry it on de die in diem, in order to get through it as
speedily as might be, as had been done in a case of a.
similar nature in the year 1778
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
eoncoived it to be desirable on all sides to get rid of
the subject as speedily as possible ; but considering the
question of so complicated a nature, he conceived it
impossible, in the present stage of the business, for
the House to pledge itself to any specific mode of
proceeding. Its discretion, therefore, must be guided
by the circumstances that might arise in the course of
the Enquiry.
Mr. TIERNEY hoped there would be no objec-
tion on the part 0. Ministers for the House to carry
on the Enquiry & die in diem, unless some matters of
pressing importance should intervene to interrupt that
mode.
The conversation, however, terminated, without
any particular arrangement being specified ; but it
seemed to be the sense of the House that the Enquiry
should proceed from day to day, provided the dis-
patch of public business should not require any inter-
ruption to it.

NAVY ESTINfATEs.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee
of Supply, Mr. WARD rose to move the Navy
Estimates. The first Resolution was—
" That 130,000 men be voted for the sea-service
of the current year," which was agreed to.
The Hon. Gentleman then said, that as some alte-
ration had taken place with respect to making up the
Estimates, he begged leave shortly to explain the
reasons which had induced the Admiralty to depart
from the accustomed forms. The chief alteration
would be found in the head of Wear and Tear. It
had been usual to form the Estimates for the Navy
under four heads, viz. Wear and Tear, Victualling,
Seamen's Wages, and Ordnance for Sea Service.—
The wear and tear, in last year's expences, amount-
ed to £11,299,000, this year it would only amount to
something more than £10,000,000, by which it would
appear that a reduction had taken place. Hitherto
the Estimates had proceeded to take into the head
Victualling of the Navy, the expences of the army in
garrisons abroad. The present Admiralty, however,
thinking they saw considerable difficulty attending it,
wished to ascertain it as nearly as might be. In the
expences of last year, the seamen's wages were esti-
mated at £1 I 7s. per man per month ; in the present
Estimates they were taken at £1 15s. Gd. Last year
130,000 men had been voted, but the actual number
had exceeded that. In some parts of the year, it was
impossible to tell what the numbers were, but at some
others the average might be ascertained. It was
therefore his business to state, that £3,992,000 will
! give £1 13s. Gd. per man per month, and that ac-
counted for one part of the reduction. Last year,
the Victualling Account was ,988,350, but that
was not confined to the navy, but included the army
abroad. The present Board of Admiralty had ascer-
tained, that the army part of the expences, on an
average of three years, amounted to £1,193,000.—
There would be a considerable reduction in the bead
of Sea-fencibles, but then there would be an
addi-
tional charge in consequence of the officers of that
corps coming on half pay.
Admiral MARKHAM said, that in the course of
former years, it was usual to take the average.
.He
wished, however, to know, out of which department
this was to come. The sea.fencibles were a very
great expence, he believed, nearer £200,000 than
£lOO,OOO.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the reduction was to be made in consequence of
the intention to disband the sea fencibles ; the ex-
pences which he allowed were uearly what was stated
by the Hon. Admiral.
Mr. TIERNEY said, the Admiralty seemed to
think they had done a Bread deal in clearing this par-1
ticular charge in the navy, but he could not see any
earthly purpose it would answer, but to shew a de-
crease in Navy Estimates, which was merely shew ;
for what they gained at one end they lost at the other
--while. they decreased the navy expences, those of
the army increased.
Sit JOHN NEWPORT wished to know if any
thing was to be done respecting the Irish sea-fencibh s?
Mr. R. WARD said, they were to be entirely
done away.
Mr. GILES asked what was the expence of the
sea-fencibles of Great Britain ?
Mr. R. WARD said, he was not able to answer
specifically, what the expence of the sea fencibles was.
If the Honourable Gentleman wished to know the I
exact amount, it could only be done by a motion for'
that purpose. His Right Hon. Friend had stated, it
was something nearer £200,000 than £lOO,OOO.
Mr. D. GIDDY said, he was happy to hear it was
intended to provide in some way for the meritorious
officers of the sea-fencibles.
Mr. CALCRAFT said a few words on that sub-
ject, but it was found be had mistaken the statement.
Admiral MARKH AM said, it had always been
customary to rate the wages of seamen at £l. 17s.
per man per month. He did not know on what
ground the new mode was founded. In the former
Estimates, the sea-fencibles were included in the wear
and tear; but he verily believed there was not any
one at the Admiralty could give an explanation of the
grounds on which the Estimates were made.
Mr. R. WARD said, there never • was a Lrreatef
labyrinth than the Navy Estimates. They had
ways been formed under the four heads be had 1e-


• ••
the preselitt Boar 4 had doi e filling of Acts. The man who gave an office woulti
those hads as. nauch 4s.possi- take care that the person appointed to it was capable
, the. wages at 411. Is6.:td. per pf discharging the duties appertaining to it ; whereas
could only say, that 4ib99,950 if it was given to a person out of sight, the contrary
If •the lionourabtleAdmiral
as4istanco• in the'
Auld very

would be the case. Offices ht reversion might Ce
bead of wear' given, and feared had been bestowed on persons;
.
be thantful to hips. i ivhose age 'or sex were highly Otfitting to discharke.
—6 sums were then voted : 1 their duties. They, might be given to a chld an
-
X 3,992,000 for seamen's wages, at the rate of ,El. 15s. 6d. pee' tdroti.lnd-ie walV4mportalit to reCollect, treat these . •
man pis- month. • perions having-aCothe possessed of places in river;
C 1,997,500 for victualling, as the rate of EA, "7.t.5.A-Ler mfa.,..1. swn,. hata_vastaol_iatetasa w booalse person who gale
per month.
•' them was- deailitid.gone, at no way responsible ha
.C 1,29,7 CO for wear and tear, at she rate of Al. zas. per znan
_ , what he had do le. It looked also as it: 0
per month ; and
£391,500 for ordnance for the sea-service. . • not objects of trust, but merely of emoluim.'ceciso were
.. It
The Report was ordered. to be received to-morrow. ; could not be clOubted that the main object is trust:
•
PLACES IN REVERSION. 'i keit this mode of granting them in reversion over;
Mr. BANKES moved, that the Bill of the last • turned the principle, and encouraged the, dangerous
Session for preventing of granting Offices in Rever- idea that offices wero . granted for the benefit of the
sjon be read, which being. done, the Honourable possessor, and. not for• the benefit of the public. It
Gentleman said,. when he rose the other-day to give 'had always been the custena of the House, to cons:,
notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a. der der the rights of individuals with stricter attention
than they paid to the rights of the public. He meantßill to make perpetual the Act which had just been
read, he had not the slightest idea that there would to allude oily to private rights. There were office,
be any thing like opposition to it; and it was with in- which a committee on public economy must think
' finite surprise and concern he heard his Right Hon. ought to be abolished, and it was ; equally pre-sing , mg on
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) declare it them that this abuse should be corrected. There ;vat
one case in which the whole supply of metileines both
ing in a Bill of his own for its continuance only one
was his intention to shorten such duration, by bring-
to the navy and army was in one person. Suppnsing
year longer. What reason his Right Hon. Friend
that should be granted in reversion, and it night be
„
could have., that had operated on his mind to do so, he necessary to buy it up—it couldeot be done, because
it 1 the Committee could not *lay their hands on it oft that
could not even pretend to guess; but whatever
f sent granted in reversion, but it might he, and if account.is
might be, he. hoped and.trusted it would not operate
It was true that this place was not a pre.
on the mini of the House, because he thought he.
were, it would be a great evil. He thought he rntle
could shew, beyond a possibility of contradiction, i
that it ought not so to operate. In order to do this, it ;also fairly assume that this mode of granting *us
would only be necessary for him to give a concise his- , in reversion tended to increase sinecure Mikes ; for
at
tory of this Bill. It would be in the recollection of all ! wh they got into particular hands, it was said they
; became vested, and they soon neglected the ditties tf
those who sat in the former Parliament, that a Com
mittee had been appointed to enquire into the state of I them ; and the necessary offices, when first instituted,
the Finances of the country, ; and that towards the lat- Iby this mode of- granting them, became mere sine-
ter ter end of the Session of that short Parliament the cures. Many Members of the House had expressed
Househad, in consequence of a Report of that Corn-
their wishes to abolish sinecures ; and. if they were in
!earnest, why should they net be equally deinolisaf
mittee,resolved unanimously, that no place in reversion
getting rid of that baneful practice which turns offices
should be granted. When that Resolution, and the Bill
grounded upon it, were brought before the House, • that were once efficient, into mere sinecure offices, to
the great detriment of the public, and injury. to the
his Right Hon. Friend, though not then Minister, ;
but yet a Member of the House, said not one word service of the country ? This mode of granting re.
of opposition against the Bill. It was read a second i versions had also been applied to pensions, and did,
time, and was in progress to a Committee, when the 1 in fact, controul the fair exercise of the Crown in the
dissolution of that Parliament stopped its progress.: distribution of its bounty granted by Parliament.—
The third point it would not be necessary to enlarge
On the meeting of the next Parliament, his Majesty, ,
in his speech at the opening of it, expressed his pecu- i upon. Isis Right Honourable Friend had never en-
liar approbation of that Committee, of which this was i tered into the consideration of it in the same way
the only overt act. On the meeting of the second ; many others had, who had conceited and encouraged
Session, his Majesty, in his Speech, again repeated i alarms of trenching on the prerogative of the Crown.
1 This Bill rather tended to restore the prerogative.—
the same approbation of that Committee. The Bill,
It was well known and universally admitted, that the
founded on the Resolution of the House, was again
disposal of offices can only remain with the Crown;
brought forward and passed, but was, unexpectedly,
1 but it was equally certain that the CroWo ought to
towards the close of the first Session, thrown out in
i have the office to give, unencumbered at- the time it
the Lords ; when the House, taking into considera-
Yon the lateness of the period, and the quarrels that I was bestowed. Upon these grounds he would move,
were going on in the House, and finding there would
1" That leave be given to bring in a Bill, to make per.
not be time to pass another Bill, thought proper to 1 petual the Act which had just been read."
address his Majesty not to suffer any place in rever- Mr. HENRY THORNTON rose to second the
lion to be granted during the recess. The propriety motion. Notwithstanding the respect he felt to be due
of the principle that places in reversion ought not to to the other House, yet he considered that it was the
be granted, was universally acknowledged. The peculiar province of that House, as guardians of t
Bill, however, again failed. A consultation. took public purse, to consider of measure; which tended to
place, and the Lords' Journals were inspected, to lighten the burdens of the country. He would con.
see if they could find any particular reason why the ceive that it might be possible that the Peers should
Bill had been rejected, but all in vain. Under all the be somewhat too precipitate in the rejection of any
circumstances of the Session before last, when he thing which might appear to invade the Royal Prem.
found it impossible to do more than he had done, he gative ; but still it appeared, that any thing which
was himself the author of a temporary Bill, as he , regarded the expenditure of the country came more
thought it afforded an opportunity to chew the tern- l naturally under the controul of the House of Gum
per and moderation of the House, and, in order to moil's. It was true, that many impottant improvements
avoid any thing that might lead to a misunderstand- had been introduced of late years, and that in former
ing between the two Houses. In doing this, he did 1 periods of our history the power of the Crown was
all he could to render it as gracious as possible, but j less controlled in respect to granting offices and pen-
ia no one particle of his conduct had lit ever shewn sinus than at present. It had been found necessary to
the smallest tittle of inclination to give up his perpe- limit the prerogative of the Crown with
tual Bill, though by inserting words suggested by his the Irish Pension List ,• nevertheless, the prin4lc of
Right Hon. Friend, as likely to ease the feelings of that limitation can still be violated, as the Act only
some particular individuals, he had acceded, as think- refers to the amount of the Pension List, and not to
ing them of no very particular consequence. He the period for :.hick the pensions are granted. The
should, therefore, think it peculiarly hard, if those consequence is, that since that restrict ion,whatever pete
words, inserted in the preamble of the Act just before sions are given in Ireland, aregenerally given for mere
read, should be argued against this Bill; because he than one life. He could not see any reason for preferring
expressly stated, at the time, his reasons to be what an annual Bill to a perpetualone, as most abunditnuirne
he had just said, and that he had never lost sight of had now been given for the consideration of the subjer
a perpetual one. It now appeared to become the and Gentlemen must have perfectly formed their opi-
House to shew that they were determined to carry 'lions upon it. As to the prerogative of the Cross
into execution that which they had unanimously re-
solved. That Bill which had been rejected, could the Bill had a greater tendency to increase than a
abridge it. A gift of a place in reversion was tic,
not be brought forward again ; and, therefore, the worth a sixth part of the real value of the place when
best way was to revert to their former one. Suppose
it should fail again, the) might then do as they had the actual possession could be given. Conslderin.
the Bill, therefore, as very advantageous to the Po
done before. But why suppose any prejudices should lie, and not at all injurious to the prerogative of ll'
now remain, which give. such an absurd view of the
modera- Crown, he should beg leave to second the motion.
subject, after the House had shewn so much
After the SPEAKER had read the propose
tioa and temper ? In fact, he thought after the House
Amendment,
and the whole country also, had shewn so great and . The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCIIEQUE
unremitting an eagerness and anxiety topass the bill, declared, that he had only to repeat theseetiment
it would not be right to assume stool a thing as that which from the first he had entertained on this sit'
prejudices could still remain in the breasts of any
ject, and which nothing had occurred to alter. H:
persons elsewhere, after so much had been done to had uniformly stated, that he could not concur.
allay them first, and afterwards to eradicate them.—
—lt was needless, he thought, for him to call their titer with those who were friendly to the measure
posed by his Honourable Friend, or to those w
attention to the necessity there was that the House were hostile to it. He could not acquiesce in
should endeavour by every means in their power to opinion of the former, of the alleviation which •
preserve the good opinion oft their constituents. The would cause in the public burdens ; nor in the ap. •
eyes of all were fixed on them, and it was incumbent !tension of the latter, of the invasion to which,
to shew at this important crisis, that the House were I would subject the prerogative of the Crown.
really the representatives of the people ; in doing ; both these points great exaggeration had taken piab.
which, those who wished the representation to remain He could not see any advantage that the Path
as it was, were as deeply interested as those who could gain by the measure in an economical iie
' wished for reform. They should therefore persevere and with respect to the invasion of the prerogatir.: ,
in that course which they haid already adopted, andl the Crown, it would tend rather to increase than
which had been so highly afproved by the whole na- minish that prerogative. Unfortunately an excee'
.tion. There were, he sa;d, three principal points, 1 tion had been excited both in and still more out
which spoke most forcibly in favour of his Bill.— . doors, of prodigious public savings from the opers,_
First, as a matter of public economy, which was al- ;- don of the proposed. measure ; and an opinim P
ways highly interesting to the people, and more parti- ; been raised that those who opposed it were ill
I cularly at a period like the present, when taxes press f verse to the alleviation of the public burthens.. ~
1
on them with peculiar severity. He was not willing thing could be more untrue. The great objection:l
or desirous to hold out to the people any great hopes the granting of places in reversion was unquer.tal
of a sensible alleviation of their burdens, for he ' ably that it put those places more out of the roc!!
feared that during the continuance of this just war, 1 Parliament, should Parliament determine that reach
they were more likely to be increased than diminish- i were susceptible of reform, or that they ought to. !
is 8 ; but if the. House would shew a design and de- abolished. He was very willing to allow, thel,
Bever termination tomake retrenchments in expenses where. I that while the attention of Parliament WAS dir6:
ever they can, it would go a great way towards ren- by the Report of the Committee of Finance to
..41.
I'dering them more patient, and inducing them to bear regulation or abolition of places, the power of CI:
their burthens with Tess repining. The second point ing them in reversion ought to be suspentlek Y 1
was,. that if the House prevented the granting of the House should adopt final resolutions mate
offic:m in reversions it Would certainly tenitotlta well ject, and until bills should pass to carry those IC-

empowering his Majesty in Ciuncil .100tiosed ; and t
of Parliament., they, ,„ • simplify
tsnr suppoTted the necessity of the .blc. • pect to
ras given to bring it in. *an peL,month, he co
rA r.REN EXPEDITION'. woad CbVer the pay.
ESTER moved, that the Spealiritileitul,d giie them any
ant, requiring the attendance of,litnd tear, the Board w
C(.sote, General Hope, and seve.zal The following sum: