Star.
London, England, 1821-03-29 00:00:00

CATHOLIC CLAIM&

The Order of the Day having been read for the
House toresolve itself into a Committee on the Roman
Catholic Relit! Bill;
Sir J. NEWPORT moved that the Speaker do
leave the Chair.

Mr. HUTCHINSON rose and said that, before the
Speaker left the Chair, he would, in compliance with
what he felt to be his duty, as well as in accordance
with that particular line of support which he, in
common with the other members of his family, had
afforded to the just claims of his Roman Catholic
countrymen, offer to the House an explanation of the
grounds upon which he had resolved to resist the fur-
ther progress of the second Bill—the Intercourse with
Rome Bill. He had witnessed, with more satisfaction
than he was able to express, the moderate and con-
ciliatory tone by which the discussion throughout
had been distinguished ; and by none, he was bound
to acknowledge, were that moderation and disposi-
tion to conciliate more steadily adhered to than by',
the Right Hon. Member for the University of Oxford.
However, he was desirous of following the same
course, not more on account of the example of the
friends and the adversaries of this great measure,
than by the persuasion that a temperate and impar-
tial consideration of the subject would prove most
serviceable to the cause itself. Whilst he professed
a zeal equal to that of any man in or out of Parlia-
ment, for the furtherance of this great measure, and
whilst he was prepared to yield to any demand of
sacrifice which could be made upon his own feelings
in the service of that measure, he feared that he
should prove the innocent cause of disturbing the
harmony in which it had hitherto proceeded, and
thereby lessen the hopes of its advocates. His friends
had even surrounded him, to beseech him to desist;
and, even since he had taken his seat that evening,
he had received several anonymous letters to the same
effect, representing to him that his opposition to the
second Bill would only have the effect of embarrass-
ing the progress of the measure ; that it would be
the means of totally taking away all the hopes of
the Roman Catholics; and it was even insinuated
that, by this opposition, he would be disserring his
own interests. With respect to the latter consideration,
he begged to say, that on no occasion did he give it
a preference: over the considerations of duty ; and,
'least of all, didihe take into his contemplation what
course of conduct would be most -advantageous to
himself on the present question, which, to consider
it rightly, should always be considered as a question
involving equally the interests of all classes of the
empire—(Hear, hear).—k the first Bill it was ueed-

litss to say that he gave his unqualified support; bnt
accompanied as it was wi.h a Bill of securities, such
as those contained in the second Bill, he should be
under the painful necessity of refusing to accept it,
on the part of the Roman Catholics—(Hear, hear).
—lt was his general principle, that no securities
were necessary ; but, if he could be brought to
accede to any securities, these certainly would not
be such as he should sanction. The question then was,
could no other securities be devised but those which
affected exclusively the Rom'an Catholic Priesthood?
Wherefore was it that the Clergy should be selected
to give the hostages, whilst the lay community en-
joyed the benefit? He considered that the clauses
of the second Bill were penal in effect ; they were
allowed to be so by some of his friends, who would
sanction the temporary injustice to the Clergy by the
prospect of these securities being abolishes' by the
act of a more enlightened Parliament—(Ncar,frorn
Mr. Peel). The clauses were, in the first place, ob.
jectionable, because they were to have an e.r postfacta
effect; for the first clause required that every person
of the Roman Catholic Religion now exercising cleri-
cal functions should subscribe an oath. The clause
was next objectionable, because it was penal. Let
the House look to the nature of the oath, and then
let them consider that a penalty was to be affixed to
the offence of not taking that oath. What that pe-
nalty was—whether it was transportation or impri.
sonment, he did not know. He would ask, where •
was the law hitherto which compelled any man to
take an oath? He knew many respectable persons,
not Roman Catholics, but Protestants, who scrupled
to take an oath ; and he knew of one instance of a
party foregoing a considerable loss, in consequence of
refusing to take an oath. Ma doubt the measure
which had been so triumphantly carried, after a dis-
cussion of it, which, for temperance and concilia-
tion, did honour to all parties, was pregnant 'aids
benefits. Bnt after having thrown open the Houses
of Parliament to Roman Catholics—after having
opened to them some of the great offices, wine a libe-
ral hand, why did they stop short and make it the
condition of their generous concessions, that they
should receive the securities which this Bill could
place in their hands? Why should they do thi.,
un-
der any circumstances? And why, most of all,
should they do it, on account of the motive which
they professed, namely, that there were some unrea-
sonable Protestants in the country that would not be
satisfied without them? He had another objection
to the Bill—that it gave what he would call the Veto ,
to the King, in the appointment of Bishop,. And
the clause of this Bill, with respect to that power,
was distinguished from the corresponding measure
of 1813, in this respect, that in the latter, the Gra;
verement was bound to assign the cause of disloy.
alty and disaffection in every instance where the
power of rejection was exercised; whereas, the clause
of the present Bill directed that the rejection should
be accompanied by the statement of a some reason
of a civil nature." He begged to observe that the
House—at least that great part of it which was not
conversant with the domestic condition of Ireland—
was not aware of the nature of the interest which he
was endeavouring to advocate at that moment.—
There was not, in the Empire, a more respectable,
or a more useful body of men, than the Irish Ro-
man Catholic Clergy—(Hear). None could be more
anxious, and none more efficient in the preserva-
tion of the public peace, and in setting the affec.
tions of the People upon the Government—(Hear). r
They were the voluntary promoters of tranquillity
and loyalty ; and, in the power to promote both, Go-
vernment could not look to better agents. Consider.
ing all these circumstances, he was entitled to say,
that nothing could be more injudicious and oppres-
sive than to call upon those meritorious individuals
' who wished to be left as they were—who desired no
interference to drag them from their peaceful retreats
—the scenes of their useful labours, and hold them
up to the members of their own religion, as the men
who,.by a mistakes, sense of duty, or wantonly reins.
ing to make some inconsiderable sacrifices, in coder
that the Lay community might =be placed upon a
better political footing. The Clergy of Ireland cort
sisted of four Archbishops, 25 Bishops, 1100 Parish
Priests, 800 Curates, and between 200 and 500 Re-
gulars. And was such a body as this to be made die
object of penal visitation, in order to balance the cat.
cession of privileges to the Laity ? The R Ot•
tholic Clergy of Ireland could boast, besides, cminie ,
the most ancient Priesthood of the three kin s;
and how did the House think to justify itseff in its
treatment of a body having such high claimsoo their
attention, in the present era of moderation, justice*
and conciliation ? In the whole Penal Code, nothing
more repulsive occurred than this compulsory direc-
tion to the Priesthood to take an oath. One of the
most able and eloquent supporters of the Bill (the
Member for Bramber), alluded with some espressons
of apprehension to the existence of a College ofJesues
in England. He begged to state, that the establish-
ment adverted to was not recognized canonically as
an establishment ofJesuits, the Pope having objectal
to sanction the existence of any such establishment, s
because the. Government of England would not sanc-
tion it. The words of his Holiness were-- °l'd°.
&details Jesu non est restorata, quaint° guidon? r
Anglia gubernicurn non vult."—(Hear, hear)..-1."
C lion
for the instruction llete, in fiancttt,towttasn ofpermyiottnet.
permitted merely
yabse aandthmisuntne.i
ti
was a digression, but such a one as he hoped
House would not deem unuseful. He was serey. 111.1;
his opposition was likely to throw impediments lath
way of the Bill, but his duty made it incumbent es
the
him to make it. He would, however, put
i
d
nßight e
tHon.atisfiMe
de
with
ber
anything
tbOixofgorsdh,ortw hoefthtehre
de
he weftrao
don of the Roman Catholic Clergy in Ireland. As
yet he had received no information of anygeetbulugt
of the Clergy having taken place in that country,
he was strong in asserting that such Meetings w
pt0:1
become general throughout all Ireland.
would
atislsisurßeilth,etlheroeuftoer,et,bsnotletliyiefrsotrmonpgreisntcfiepelelioligHepeciPrewou
this amongstßi l
l. theH Prelacye
consideredan d Citleprgreygnoaf
and would give it all the opP,ositton in his power. ban
Lord CASTLEREAGII said,
hadile
induced him to have supported those c ►
0 .
thought them insulting or iniurioireto the
.enuf..
of the Catholic Clergy of Ireland'. Bdt, in his
t.eigr.
nltrewlainthd
da.eranga.Bl:l:
necessary to the union of the two great
ligbso
je"cuiuerirs securities
gria.as
Catholics and Protestants of the two coulltlia*

odd not seer
le -Clergy; eitl
feelings; for chi
allowed -them tc
Tenni clauses, ti
to the Catholic
resent law, the
their correspond
beinselves to p
evesi perhaps, a
vatillation of Di
think the talents
eentlernan, in h
In Ireland, were
sepose of the Ca
the doctrine, tha
functions, until
Catholic Priests
first oath, he th(
thins Catholic Cl
pope had distill(
the British Legi
from him which
lie Powers. Thl
pies, but these s,
He assured the I
tion was propose
tion of all panic

able Gentleman,
with the Pope v
the other Protet
heavier securities
man would do h
and prejudices w
to exist. The No
the Relief of th
passed twenty-fiv
ting out, met wid
those Clergy thet
Presbyterians we
that Bill, and he I
attend this measu
derstood in Irelan
entreated the Hoi
tion, from a pers,
the worst conseqi
measure—(Hear,
Dr. PHILLIM
for the success of
for it unless these
faith of which thi
to be removed fro
ber (Mr. Plunket
would not ask the
out demanding di

Mr. PEEL said
by the expression c
the Pope at his ba
those who were nc
The duty of himsel
painful one, in Of
but do not let then
having attempted t
Catholics,

Mr. M. FITZGI
should, if possible
they ought also to
lion to the Catholic
the Catholic Cleri
dissimilar from dm
regulation of the it
third, a restriction
did not find fault
It was taking them
who derived no bet
liament; and requi
*ere to receive a r
out giving anything
duct of the Calla
a great measure, I
therefore, that hod
think of insulting,
lie was, therefore,
of the Catholic Cli
ant Administration
perusal of Mr. Bu
raisthievous interfi
Mr. CANNING
Irt6ng in any man
popularity which n
Latter part of the 1
lily he might have
♦ions part of it.

ineasnre was to 1
pion, of co-opera
*scare of the state 4
tounication of the I
Bee?.—and if they
tinue them when fc
any man were now
Concessions, he gm,
candour on the pa
Would have a right
bringing them to.
by promising them
second part of it.
a fraud ; and as hi
tions to obtain eman
he would, with equa
if these concessions
Sir G. HILL said
measure, for the inte
pass into a law, he
ciliate the opinions I
Mr. It. MARTIN
if they had known.
Clergy were hostile
fipatio,n would have
st now was ? Irle ha
would most probabl
the next Election lot
should successfully
Charter of Emancip
Bishops never thouj
to their religious b
Merely as conveniern
of the Rornish Chun
11:0:gkhta
they Mr. BARING co
I.)een cast on the Ho
re
m
n a
Of ruaguida
temo all the se
Mr. CANNING s;
the opinions out of <
Mr. BARING w

A

gad not regard these clauses as penal to the Catho-
it -clergy; either as painful or insulting to their
feelings; for the very head of their own Church' had
snowed them to accept of them. ' Instead of being
._real clauses, they gave strength and consolidation
tbe Catholic Church of Ireland. In fact, by the,.
weir nt law, the Catholic Clergy of Leland were, by
heir correspondence with the See of Rome, exposing
tbernselves to penal statutes, some of which would
en perhaps, affect their lives. He regretted the
vacillation of Dr. Milner on this subject; nor did lie
think the talents of Mr. Hares, or those of another
gentleman, in his letter to his Catholic countrymen
in Ireland, were displayed for the consolidation or
Terse oldi Catholic Church. He protested against
tbe doctrinee , that this Parliament should suspend its
fon:tions, until it knew the opinions of the different
catholic Priests of Ireland on the subject. As to the
first oath, he thought it was one which no conscien-
tious Catholic Clergyman could refuse to take. The
pope had distinctly declared, that he expected that
the British Legislature would not ask concessions
from him which he had never granted to even Catho-
lic powers. The Catholic Clergy might have scru-
ples, but these scruples could not have great effect.
le assured the Hon. Member, that if any modifica-
tion was proposed, that it would meet with the sanc-
tion of all parties ; for he could assure the Honour-
able Gentleman, that he proposed to legislate now
with the Pope at his back—(Great laughter). —All
the other Protestant countries in Europe required
heavier securities; and he trusted the Hon. Gentle-
man would do his duty, without exciting jealousies
and prejudices which might never have been found
to exist. The Noble Lord then instanced the Bill for
the Relief of the Presbyterian Clergy, which was
passed twenty-five years ago, and which, in the set-
ting out, met with the greatest opposition, even from
;lose Clergy themselves. At this day, however, the
Presbyterians were grateful to the Government for
that Bill, and he had no doubt the same results would
attend this measure, when its effects came to be un-
derstood in Ireland. The Noble Lord, in conclusion,
entreated the Hon. Member to withdraw his opposi-
tion, from a perseverance in which he apprehended
the worst consequences to the success of the whole
measure—(Hear, hear).
Dr. PHILLIMORE was as anxious as any man
for the success of this measure; but he could not vote
for it unless these securities were imposed, under the
faith of which these disabilities had been consented
to be removed from the Catholics. The Hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Plunkett) had himself declared, that he
would not ask the concessions for the Catholics with-
out demanding the securities from them.

Mr. PEEL said, some laughter had been excited
by the expression of a Noble Lord " legislating with
the Pope at his back ;" but he could not say so of
those who were now in the rear of him—.(A laugh).
The duty of himseli and his friends had been a most
painful one, in opposing this measure altogether ;
but do not let them accuse his friends and himself of
having attempted to impose these restrictions on the
Catholics, _ _ _

Mr. M. FITZGERALD acknowledged that they
should, if possible, conciliate popular alarm ; but
they ought also to steer clear of insult and degrada-1
Lion to the Catholics. The securities required from
the Catholic Clergy were, first, an oath, not very
dissimilar horn those in former Statutes; second, a
tegulation of the intercourse with the See of Rome;
third, a restriction on the nomination of Bishops, He
did not find fault with the requiring securities, but
it was taking them from a most meritorious body,
who derived no benefit from the concessions of Par-
liament; and requiring no securities from those who
*ere to receive a most valuable consideration, with-
out giving anything for it. Upon the exemplary con-
duct of the Catholic Clergy of Ireland depended, in
a great measure, the peace of that country ; and,
therefore, that body was the last that they should
think of insulting, by requiring of them securities.
He was, therefore, hostile to placing the nomination
of the Catholic Clergy in the hands of any Protest-
ant Administration whatever. He recommended the
perusal of Mr. Burke's warning against any such
mischievous interference.

Mr. CANNING should have thought it extremely
tweng in any man to shrink from sharing in the un-
popularity which might attach to his supporting the
part of the Bill, notwithstanding the popula-
rity he might have acquired in supporting the pre-
vious part of it. The whole object of this whole
measure was to bring about a perfect feeling of
union, of co-operation, and interest. Were they
aware of the state of our laws with respect to com-
munication of the Catholic Clergy with the Roman
See?—and if they were, would- they wish to con-
tinue them when found tco bad for execution? If
aay man were now to turn round, and give up the
concessions, he gave ground for a charge of Want of
candour on the part of the Protestants ; and they
would have a right to charge them with a fraud in
bringing them to agree to the first part of the Bill
by promising them the concessions contained in the
second part of it. He would not be a party to such
a fraud ; and as he had sacrificed many considera-
tions to obtain emancipation to our Catholic brethren,
he would, with equal sincerity, oppose the whole Bill,
if these concessions were refused to the Protestants.
Sir G. HILL said, that much as he deprecated this
measure, for the interests of the State, yet, if it should
pass into a law, he would go all in his power to con-
ciliate the opinions of all parties to it.
Mr. It. MARTIN appealed to the House whether,
if they had known that the whole of the Catholic,
aergy were hostile to this measure, Catholic eman-
fipation would have been in so forward a state as
it now was ? Ile had voted for this 8111, though he
*wild most probably have a Catholic antagonist at
the next Election for the County of Galway; but he
Mould successfully compete with him by holding the
Charter of Emancipation in his band. The Catholic
Bishops never thought these securities as contrary
to their religious belief; but they considered them
merely as conveniences to themselves. The very Head
ache Romish Church did not disapprove of them.
Mr. BARING considered that an imputation had
been cast on the Hon. Members who had wished to
*move all the securities, as having meant to put
%trick and a fraud on the Protestants.
Mr. CANNING said, he had merely referred to
toe opinions out of doors.
Mr. BARING was glad to hear that; but he
thought they ought not to impose any restriction on

a body of men whom it was their ankivus uisls an 3
duty to conciliate; and he thought they ought to con-
ciliate all parties.

Mr. RICE had the satisfaction of stating, that from
his Catholic constituents he had received the assurance
that they were most thankful for the concessions pro-
posed to be given them, even with the securities
which might be demanded of their Clergy. He cer-
tainly did not approve of the second Bill ; but he
would vote for it, because there were fears on the part
of the Protestants.
Mr. P. MOORE said that there were some ardent
spirits in Ireland who would never be satisfied ; but
he hoped the House would proceed without refer-
ence to them.
The House then went into a Committee on the Bill.

Mr. BARING thought the oath should be only pro-
spectiye, and be taken by those who might hereafter
be admitted to officiate in the Catholic Church.
Mr. GOULBURN resisted the Amendment, and
Mr. BARING declined to press it.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON had, from the first, ex-
pressed his disapprobation of the second Bill; and, in
the name of the Catholic Clergy of England and Ire-
land, protested against the penal clauses against the
Catholic Clergy, who were to suffer for the conces-
sions made to the laity.
Mr. W. WYNN must protest against the term penal,
as applied to the clauses in question'. If the Clergy
did not chuse to take the oath, they were liable to no
penalty, and a similar oath was taken by the Dissent.
ers, on the same footing with whom it was proposed
to place the Catholics.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD thought the new oath
should be confined to the election of Bishops, and to
intercourse with the see of Rome. To such the
penalty of forfeiture of office should be confined, in
the event of their not taking the oath.
Mr. COU RTENAY was of opinion that the clause,
as it originally stood, was the essence of the measure.
The blank in the first Clause was tilled up with
four months.

Sir J. NEWPORT protested against the idea that
there was anything in the Bill that tended to degrade
the character of the Catholic Clergy.
The second, third, and fourth Clauses were agreed
to without any amendments.
In the fifth clause, prohibiting any person from
exercising the episcopal functions, without a year's
previous residence in the country, it was suggested
by Lord CASTLEREAGH that, on the Report of the
' Bill, a Clause might be inserted, enabling the Crown
to dispense with the term of residence.— I'he sugges-
tion was acceded to by Sir J. NEWPORT.
The Clause for appointing Commissions for in-
vesting Catholic Priests with clerical dignities, and
for guaranteeing their loyalty and gohchaviour,
was agreed to, after a few observations from Sir G.
HILL, Mr. WYNN, and Lord CASTLEREAGH.

Some discussion took place respecting the oath to
be taken by the Clerk to the Commission, who was
bound to secrecy, except to the Commissioners.
•

An Amendment was proposed by Mr. Bntcatr, re-
leasing the Secretary, in certain cases, from the oath
of secrecy. The Amendment was not pressed, and
the clause passed as it originally stood.
On the Clause respecting the nomination of Bishops,
Lord CASTLEREAGH suggested, that the Catholic no-
minated, or intended to be nominated, to be a Bishop
or Dean, in Great Britain or Ireland, should, either
by himself, or by others, give notice of such nomi-
nation, to one of his Majesty's Principal Secretaries
of State, and not enter upon the episcopal func-
tion, till a month after his nomination had been ap.
proved of on the part of the Crown.—The clause,
thus amended, was agreed to.
The several other clauses of the Bill were then
agreed to.
Mr. ELLIS then proposed a clause to disqualify
Catholic Priests from holding seats in Parliament ;
and, in proposing the clause, declared his opinion,
that he considered this Bill, as far as regarded its
giving security to the Protestant Establishment, as
one of the most solemn humbugs thaf ever existed.—
(Hear, hear).
Mr. WYNN considered the clause as unnecessary;
but after a few words from Mr. Ews, it was adopted.
The preamble to the Bill was then read, and, with some ver-
bal Amendments, agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received to-morrows

Sir J. NEWPORT said, he should stove the third reading
on Monday,
Mr. PEEL observed, he had reason to believe there would
be a division on tile third reading.

MISCELLANEOUS.

The Public Notaries' Bill was read a third time, and passed.
The house went into a Committee on the Innkeepers' Bill.—
Report ordered to be received to-morrow.
Mr. C. GRANT obtained leave to bring in two Bills, one to
abolish Prison Fees, and the other to amend the Insolvency Act
in Ireland.
The Beer Duties Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Lord STANLEY presented a Petition against the County
Courts,lNU, from Bolton, in Lancashire.—Laid on the table.
On the motion of Mr. HUNIE, several Returns connected ,
with the Ordnance were ordered.
Sir G. NY ARRENDER postponed the consideration of the
Navy Estimates to 'Friday.
The Charitable Establishments Bill was read the third time,
and passed.
The other Orders were disposed of, and the House adjourned
at Twelve o'Clock.

A Petition to the House of Commons from New-
castle, is preparing, praying that a reduction from 225. to 10s.
per chaldron, may take place in the duties on large Coals to be
exported, which would advance the Revenue, increase the Coal
Trade, and employ many indiviauals dependent on that Trade
for subsistence. _ .

The subjoined Letter, from a Landed Proprietor in
Wiltshire, points out a Plan for the Relief of the Poor
in Country Polishes, so well calculated to answer its
intended purpose, that we would most earnestly re-
commend it to serious consideration :
" Sarum March 22, 1821.

" The plan of affording Relief to the Poor which I now com-
municate, is not calculated for the vicinity of Cities or large
Manufacturing Towns, because their enormous population pre-
cludes the possibility of finding a sufficient quantity of land for
the purpose ; but in small towns and villages, the plan may be,
and has been adopted with success, and I shall adopt it on my
own estates.
" In one of the western counties of England, one or two spirited
and benevolent landlords have resolved to allow each poor family
in the parish one acre,. to be cultivated by the individuals of the
family, after the first year; but during the first year, to be
ploughed and sown by the tenants of the larger farms, the land-
lord allowing the tenant the expenses of seed. At first many
evils were expected to arise from yt ; but the contrary is the
fact, and the Poor Rates are very considerably reduced. The
advantages of such a system mast be great, and particularly in
the improvement of their morals, because they will necessarily
feel a greater repugnance to commit any crimes by which they
would be lowered in that scale."