Star.
London, England, 1817-05-22 00:00:00

EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR BILL.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
having moved the recommittal of the Employment
of the Poor Bill,
Lord MILTON said, he doubted much whether
the txpectations of the country upon this Subject
would be realised In Sheffield and the other great
manufacturing towns it could not give much relief,
tor the people there could not engage in the works
contemplated by the Bill. The measure would be
hurtful to parishes, because it would lead them into
the temptation of contracting debts, and debts were
already the great source of the evils under which the
c.iuntty ruff, red. The money etas to be replaced in
the course of three years, so that they would have to
pay th, interest as well as the principal by that time,
when it could not be expected that they would be
much recovered from the state in which they were
at present. He should wish, therefore, to have the
clause left out which regarded the parishes.
Mr. LONG WELLESLEY said, he felt consi-
derable objection to the principle of the Bill; nor
did he think the operation of k would be beneficial
with respect to public works. There was quite enough
of private capital in the country to carry them on—
(Hear, hear.)—liaising money by such securities as
were proposed, was pursuing a system which all al.
lowed to be a bad one. Temporary expedients were
of little use. They wanted some permanent measure
to meet the distresses of the country. The great in-
crease of the Poor Rates of late arose from a System
of temporary relief adopted from time to time. He
was not disposed to oppose the progress of the meat-,
sure, and he gave Ministers every credit for their good
intentions, but ►re could not approve of the principle
of the Bill.

Mr. W. SMITH thought that both the tempo
rary and permanent relief of the poor were important
considerations, though the latter, he would admit,
was more so than the former. Permanent relief was
a matter of great difficulty ; even Gentlemen who
gave their utmost attention to the subject, wise not
able to make up their minds as to any particular sys-
tem. He would give the Right Honourable Gentle-
man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) credit for
the measure. The motives which led to it, he had
no doubt, were humane, but he did not think it
would be productive of all the good expected. There
were no works carrying on now by private compa-
nies which were likely to profit by it. He had heard
from many individuals, that when they lent money
to parishes the recovery of it was very difficult, and
theth pattehresoynwsto
were generally obliged to have recourse to
whose hands it was given for the use
of the parish. In place of lending the money to pa-
rishes, he wished Government had turned their minds
to works of public utility, which must at some time
be executed. Instead of granting £60,000 to carry
on the Plymouth Break-water this Session, there
were only thirty thousand pounds granted—(Hear.)
The distress he heard was very great rn the County
of Cornwall, and it would have been better to have
employed the distressed inhabitants there upon that
work, by granting £120,000 to carry it on. The
work was very useful, and, if postponed, losses might
be sustained in a short time, Which, if prevented,
would more than counterbalance the expense. The
miners, he heard, were at present taking work by
auction, as Was the custom among then:, at a price
ten times less than they formerly received. There
was one instance of work being taken fur nothing,
that the men may establish themselves in a mine,
and be enabled thereby to continue in employment.
In Scotland also the distress was extreme. .1u some
parts of that country there was neither work nor
.money to purchase provisions. It would be better it
a portion of the money to be employed this year in
the liquidation of the National Debt were converted
to the purpose of furnishing work and subsistence to
the people. Thinking that the measure would nvt
produce much good, it would be better, in his mind,
to withdraw it, and introduce another.

Sir W. BURROUGHS said, he would not oppose
the measure; but he regretted that Ministers did not
apply themselves at as earlier pe7iod to the distresses
of the country. He had no doubt of their sincerity
in bringing forward the Bill; but if any benefit was
' expected from it, why not propose it earlier ? There
11 were some objections to it beside► the delay. It could
I not be regarded without suspicion that it may afford
to Mini tors the means of selecting u objects et fa-

your and preference some particular places. r,
this ciiciimsta,ce considerable .torrg”taee might
true men whom !.e Government might be di

to sopp4.tt a( the • t•rel Etf~;i••a.

Ministers would d satow any such intentior.
Mr. TllO~li'
d
Could h: m~urwos. QNEsecolieutfit. TI:ry
iiiteils"wheeoewltt.teletteni
advanced by Government. gin times of diErris,
were bound very beneficial. Hr did not eineriain
least doubt of the purity of the intentions with •
the measure was broup,lit Icr ward. A loan ti!
chi qm r B llc may be of eon: iderable use in enabli
pet awls to carry on works which they I:ad
obliged to d•scuntinue for the want of earital.
was desirable that the Commissioriers should
at liberty in the loans they might be rhspvted
make. There bad been sominhing said aruout bull
ilk churches. Now he could not see much ads..
tage that that could be of to tile pub,;e or to the r,
lief of the poor, unless indeed it si old be c+lttriei
that pews might be let on mortgage, ant then
might be of some use. He believed that the Ch;
cellar of the Exchequer had designed the plan
the of the poor with the most benevolent it.ti
Lions, and he sii,c• rely hoped Chet as nomh as pOibii
would be done with me money that ...ks
Mr. ROSE cooed not help exr,:ps.ing his „timi
lion at the ingenuity of the 1-I,,iii,urasle Member(
.polite, who bad fi and out the motives of the plan ,
the Right Hon. Gentleman, who had discovered,
fact, that it wax intended to inP.uenee by that plan tf
elections of Members of Parliarn-nt on the dissel
tine, and who had w islied that lie would give him ,
formation as to when that wax to take pia:e.
It any Gentleman in the House would read shear
of the Commissioners, be isould find that it was
at all likely that any such was or evtr cin 11 be
intention of the Right lion. Gentleman. It WA) t%e
there had been sets of Commissioners on such sub.
jeCts, on the reading of wh,ise names it might be ima-
gined, that by intrigue and management there ni;ghs
be some influence over elections. Bit in the pr,sent
instance be was sore no man on a calm considernion
of the thing could entertain such an idea. He did
not. think that very sanguine expectations
had been
raised in the country by the measure for toe r,l,ri et
the pour ; but at all events he hoped it would he pro-
ductive of some benefit till sonic more perinanert
measure ccoold be devised.

Mr. IA; iTELToN considered that the Bill was
not likely to be pi oductive of Any treat advantage t 3
the labouring pool, for whom it was intender. Mo-
ney would undoutredly be more plentiful, if there
were plenty of employment, but it was nut to be et-
rected that money would @ow where Ostia WAS litic
or uo profit. It WAS absolutely necessary that some
inure permanently beneficial system should be cm!-
' trived to remedy the grievance of the cautitry. Ti't
present system was bad, but it would be IleCt€Sarr
EhAt before measures were brought about for its Are.
1 ration in every respect, the strictest economy should
: be adhered to tin the part or his Majesty's Munster s.
The House then went into the Committee.
Lord MILTON proposed, that tli.2 clauses rela!-
ing to grants to parishes should be left out. It was
a proposition of which he did not recollect any d
precedent, and be did not see that it was altogrther
likely to be practised with any great success. it ..ros
A plan which WWI./ induce parishes to run tu•re is
debt than ever.

The CHANCELLOR the EXCHEQUER
said, that there was one direct precedent upon
subject ot Parish grants. A grant had been made
a certain parish an 1801, which was ta be repaid
from the poor-rates. The only differente betern
the grar.ts which would be made an. 4 that one, w..e:d
he hoped be in favour ot those who should yet re-
ceive grants ; fur ilie grant which he tiad instanced
had unfortunately never been repaid. ';'be pan
which was proposed was never intended to be any
thing but temporary. He had considered all the
objections which had been made with such pigment
by the Noble Lord, and had himself met with some
difficulty on the subject ot Grants to Yanshts, but
he could nut but imagine that such 1 plan wtuld be
productive cf some advantages.
Mr. LOCKHAR 1' said, that the only mole
which was made tar the part of the Bill which re-
lated to parishes, was, that they were so limited and
guarded that very few could be expected to Apply for
grants under the proposed restrictions. If, however,
the clauses were so }warded and limited, tvtiT was
it incumbent on the House at all to sanction them?
Mr. LiATHU KS 1' detelded the (lames. He
considered that the clauses relative ta parishes. aad
that one more particolatly allaided to by the Noble
Lord (M hull), would be productive of sonic benefit
to the country.
• Mr. LUNG WELLESLEY opposed the clauses.
They would, he said, be holding out to occupiers of
land to pledge an interest permanently, %sloth they
by no means ought tta pledge.
‘VESTLItN was ot opinion that the measure
would give to the Government a lien upon the rear
property of ihe'coun:ty. It would afford nu etlec-
tuat relief, while it would bear hard upon the landed
interest. He should vote for the Amendment. _

Sir M. W. KIDLEY objected to the chime which
made the laud-owners Habit instead of the uccupiegh
pat tic oho ly AS that principle had bean so reread' 040
jetted to it: the Birmingham Poor Bill. He :man-
, mended that the clause he had referred to %tumid be
wieudrawn, and some better expedient prupt.seJ•
Mr. B. BA.THURS'F said, that the clause last
meniioned was optional, and, depended upon 4 stbs
ot the proprietors coming forward. In th r
the "corral benefit, it was but fair that thl s:.ould
pledge the other fifth part. Few 'wishes, tv!.•3 brie
likely to be Affected by it, as a compulsory rueasurtc
would be in a situation to ask tor

The CHANCELLOR. of
said, that the money was to be advanced uu sr re
sanction of two Magistrates. This, he 6,4,10*,
would obviate the objections to the clause in cresittx-
Lord MILTON did nut see how he eoula wal.:
draw his motion to leaving nut the word • Parisne•
He had, besides, an objecttun to the clause retpccuag
the power of the Surveyors et the iliglivedys.
Mr. LYTTLETON thought, that it the relief was
great, it ought to be in the shape of a bonus.
was small, in the way it was proposed to be •iittont"
stered ; although it might be indrectiml, it might e•:-
tail a heavy burthen upon the parties receiving •t.
The House then divided,
when
there arreAred••••
Fut the Aukbdnient, I ;—Against Majnrity,&
Mr: LYTTLLTON opposed the classes for gm.
1

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I

ing security for the money advanced upon the plan.
tiiat the parties would be liable to Extents in Aid.
He should move that the p..r; relating to security
be a.l,fitted.

Aster some conversation between Mr. TIIONIPSON,
L'TENART, and the CHANCFLVIR of the Ex-
caeocen, in which the latter or •posed that it should
be limit. d to.Estunts in Met, the chose was agrei;
to as 2mended by VA. CHANCF:I.LfAi of the ExclienLee,
f:r only issuing Extents in Chief.
The remainiog clauses were then gone through
se7th. The House resumed, and the Report was or.
Ceded to be received to-morrow.—Adjourned.
While strangers were excluded from the gallery on
Tuesday night, we understand that Mr. I.lltouonma
who had not been in his place dining the debate)
rose, under evident marks of illness, Ind shortly ad.
dressed the House, to express his approbation of the
"...lotion, and his regret that he had' been prevented
from stating his opinion more in detail, by an indis-
position, in consequence of which he had applied to
have the goedion put off fora day, an arrangement
which bad been prevented by an accident. He stated,
that be was the more anxious to mention the grounds
on which he supported the motion, becaihe he went
a considerable way farther than some of his Honour-
able Friends (Sir S. Rotels.t.V and Mr. TIERNEY), in
Es views of Reform; and because he stood pledged
to state those views explicitly. He added, that he
was anxious to see the question again brought tor-
ward in lay shape shish should give him the oppor-
tunity he desired; and in the mean time he could
only state, which he did most conscientiously, his
unalterable adherence to his former sentiments upon
this impiastant question.—Mr. PLUNKETT spot:e very
Inlay on the opposite side. He expressed much re-
gret at having to differ from those friends with whom
!se always acted s• but were he to vote for sending these
Fenn .us to a Committee, he should give countensoce
so a proposition winch he denied—that the distresses
care,,lained of originated in the defects of the repre-
sentation. He was by no means, however, prepared
to reject all plans or Reform that might be proposed;
and he declared his readiness to &Koss those m.:a-
sares in detail, to which several Memoers had r.
red (SirS. Rosiii.t.e. Messrs. Tizatete and LAMB.)

THE EVEN LNG STAR.

I.ONDO'N.

THURSDAY, MAY 22, 1817.
PR'CE OF S POCKS THIS DAY AF TWELVE O'CLOCK
Reduced 73}i—Cots. 73i-4 per Cent. 119 i
they, 103) ISt—Long Ann.. 1119 16
loch Hon Is SI 8V pre—Exchequer N lie 94. 1.12. pr.
Cont. for 2.1 d wet. 79f--1)o. for Opening 7311

Mr. 13aottowase gave notice last night' in the Com-
mons, of his intention to move, on the 10th of June,
for the Repeal of the Septennial Act. We believe
that the Repeal of that Act is, however, only the
ostensinlea—not his real object in making such a mo-
tion. He has ts,ca accused of vacillation by some
of his own friends, oil the question of Annual Parlia-
ments. To this principle, it is alleged, he stood
pledged--but some months ago, he teemed to have
spoken in favour of triennial Parliaments. Those
who pretetsd to be in the secret say, that the appro-
bation supposed to have been given to Triennial, was'
not a declaration thit he had abandoned his pre-
ference to Annual Parliaments; but merely a wil-
lingness to take the one if the other could not
be obtained—and that he ,has pledged hi ',self
to make a declaration to that effect in his place. He
was to have done so on Sir FRANCIt BURDETT'S mo-
tion. That has gone off, either from Mr. Baoucunst's
indisposition, or from other causes, without the pro-
mised pledge being yet redeemed—and hence, it is
Wined, comes the promised motion for the repeal
crib:. Septennial Act—when his declaration is to be
made without ambiguity or reservation.

The motion for aCommittee. made by Sir FRANCS
Butecrr on Tuesday night, and rejected by a ma-
im!, of 183, was the same made by Mr. Pm in
1782, and lost only by a majority of 20. It was
again brought forward in 1812 by Mr. BRAND, and
rejected by a majority of 127.

The Tunis'an Corsair, of which the GANYMEDE
lent in pursuit, has made her escape for the present.
14 (Amen got sight of her on Monday off
Lathy Head, and chased her to the Westward, but
without success, the Corsair being the better sailer.
Tits GANYMEDIC returned to the Downs yesterday.

It is certainly high time that the Law (or at least
°voile) of Nations respecting Declarations of War
by any State against others at a distance. and with
'lsm, in the nature of things, they can have no
c'Else of complaint arising from locality—from the
Itarnichments of their respective subjects on each
I*at's property—were put upon a foundation some-
't'at conformable to the principles of equity and
cvornmon seine. —BONAPARTip the then Sovereign of
ba, invaded France in the beginning of 1814.
d d he justify the act ?—He was, he said, an
It'dependent Sovereign, and had a right to make war
'gout any other Power whatever ! —That is, with-
"l being bound to assign any other reason than every
Is
a right to make war upon every other State.
_it s upon this principle recognised in practice in
Europe—but which ought to be. torn up by the roots,
th 4 the Tunisians have thought fit to declare war
/Viola the Hanseatic Towns. If they have this
'by what right have we deprived them of two
• Prizes, and captured one of their cruisers ?
In the general league of Europe against &Nii-
hau, there was a kind of practical recognition of
Principle, that in future an act of aggression
ig only on the will of an individual, or of one
Eti should be repelled by general consent and
tof the others. This principle 'bomb! be ap-
la its utmost extent to all acts of aggression

by the Mootibl; Powers spina any of the Stems
which form the great family ni Europe. The
business mi:!.l be rendered very short. Let the
Gene.al Congress recottnzv the principle, that
each hunch of the family is und-r the guardian-
ship Ole ..v!,o1-, against All h •stilo acts of these
habdriAus. Its one ward—the Day Of ALOICRI has
been compelled to abolish the slavery of Christians
in his territories: let all these tfrican States be Po'
hibited from making war upon any European Power
—let them be told, tha Europe has wired that they
shall no; in future declare war, of their own mere
motion, against any but their own neighbours in 1
Africa, uith whom we have nothing to do.

The Path Papers of Sunday last arrived last night,
and thine of Monday this morning.
From intelligence from Spain, it appears that Lacy
ha; not yet been executed, and that hopes are even
entertained of .ome mitigation u(his sentence. The
Madrid Gawk: are filled with extracts lr..m Official
Rvorts on the state of Mexico, which they represent
as completely under the Royal sway. None of the
brilltAnt Actions, however, on which del expatiate,
are of i I At..r (ite than the 7th of November ; and
we know that there have been accounts down to a
much more recent period, presenting a very different
view of the Royal cause in that quarter of Spanish
America.

Ltnhis ow: rat
of
ments.
pledged—
spoken in
who pate
baton sui
Trot a cl2l
ierence tc
lingness
he obtait
to make ;
was to ha
tion. Th;
indisposit
raised ple
believed,
of the Sul
made wit
The m
&urn
jurity of
1782, an
again brc
rejected 1
The T
pent in F
The Gat
B:achy
without
The GAI
It is CI
the magi
tl any
ith
a Gust of
mtn4cli
otstei
t'lat cc
common
:!.lba,
t~ Hip d:,
indepen,
eataintt
le
e, ptt
bein
State ha
itiS y
le
TAltope.
It,
Q
that the
against
e. light-1
3g W their
vas
In th
it 'Ore,
oi- the writ
%ion
48. 131.4441
;iv!