Star.
London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

1,44

}

li
_.... • •
of the most sound practical principles of commer-
cial regulation—(Hear, hear, haar.) He was per.
fecdy aware that 'remonstrance was the only course
*filch 4he Governenent could pursue with respect to
• Spas. What he complained of was the intoletithie
grievance of issuing orders of prohibition sosuddemly
that British merchants suffered ruinous liesese,
Mr. F. ROBINSON said, that with respect to cot-
tons, there had been a notice given by Spain, in
1315, of her yrtention to return to her old prohibi-
tory system against them. Sie Henry Wellesley had
ted against this, not entirely without suc-
cess. e was not aware of any recent increase of
the duties on iron. It certainly was a grievance
that heavy duties should be suddenly imposed on the
importation of a particular article of trade—yet this
was a grievance which we ourselves had not unfre-
quently occasioned to foreign merchants. For it even
now was no uncommon thing, however mistaken the
principle unfortunately was, to pass an Act, impo-
aing heavy duties on the importation of a particular
article, which were to take effect and to be levied
immediately on she passing of the Act.
Mr. LYTTLETON said he was informed it had
been the practice of Spain to give six months' notice
of any prohibitory duties before they were actually
imposed, and the complaint was, that this practice
had been discontinued.
Dr. PHILLIMORE wished to know whether,
under the present Treaty with Spain, persons who,
having instituted proceedings in the Admiralty Court
here, had sentence of restitution of captured vessels,
pronounced in their behalf, were to be referred to
the Spanish Government for the execution of that sen-
tence? He was induced to ask the questicm in con-,
seqtilirice of its having been said nat 0200,000 out'
of the £400,000 to be granted for Spain, was in lieu
aclaims for vessels captured, and afterwards restored.
Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that persons who
had sentence. pronounced in their favour, would have
a strong equitable claim on the Spanish Govern-
ment. His understanding was, that persons in that
situation must look to the Spanish Government for
indemnity,
Lord ALTHORPE made objections to the grant
of 400,000/. in the present situation of our finances.
Mr. WILBERFORCE contended, that even as a
‘atser of commercial calculation, the Treaty was a
wise one, and the sum would be amply repaid by
the commercial advantages which the Treaty would
produce.
Mr: CALC'RAFT, alluding to the reply of Lcrd
Castlereagh, respecting claimants for captured ves-
sels, who had sentence pronounced in their favour,
thought it very hard to turn over those persons to
the Spanish Government.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that those persons
would have a good remedy against the Spanish Go-
vernment. The arrangement was made after the
precedent of the Treaty with Portugal, to which no
objection had been made on that ground. •
Mr. J. P. GRANT contended, that it was very
unfair and discreditable to send those persons, in
whose favour sentence had be:n pronounced in our''
Comte of Justice, to have the sentence carriedth'
execution. • ' 141'!'
Mr. W. SMITH approved of the Treaty gene ,
and Sir R. HERON objected to the grant of 400,0001-
The motion was then agreed to, and the report of
the. committee ordered to be recuived tc-morrow-
lIMPLOTHENT 01 SPIES.

Mr. FAZAKERLY rose, pursuant to his motion,
to move that instructions be given tc the Secret Com-
mittee now sitting, directing an enquiry to be made
whether -measures had been taken to bring to justice
the persons concerned in exciting riots in different
parts of the country. The empioyment of persons
who had excited riots had bee.' mentioned in various
petitions presented to the House—and had been
proved by some facts which came out during the
trials of persons concerned in these riots, and was
expressly noticed in the Report of th' Secret Com-
mittee on the '2oth of June lax. As he had not him-
self sufficient local information of the circumstances
under which those riots had been excited, he would
satisfy himself with founding his motion on that pas-
sage of the Report which he had mentioned. The
_gaols had been filled with State prisoners under novel
circumstances, and the proceedings of Goi•ernment
had afforded the contrast of the strongest and the
weakest measures, during which the unfortunate per-
sans had been confined with more than usual seve-
rity ; and the very last step, had been a letter of pa-
ternal admonition for the good management of the
young man who was discharged—(hear, hear, and
laughter.) When the jails had been crowded in this
manner by the exertions of spies and informers, was
it fair or just that nothing should be brought against
the persons detained? Was it decent, or any thing
like an impartial administration of justice, when
there did not appear to be the slightest trace of sus-
picion against those persons? He v.ished, however,
to guard against .expressing any opinion generally,
with regard to the employment of spies, though it
Mils most unfortunate that public vices could only be
detected by private treachery. But While such per-
sons *ere 'employed the greatest ctution should be
ezereised before the information they furnished was
acted upon. He should trouble the House no fur-
ther ; the whole object of his motion was merely to
a lk that those persons who hadeiceeded their instruc-
tions should be detected and brought to justice.—
Ife should therefore move, "That it be an instruc-
tion to the Committee of Secrecy, to inquire whether
any and what Measurei had been taken to detect and
bring to justice those persons described in the Report
of the Bth of June; 'who may, by their language and
conduct, have entourageel these designs ".of which it
was intended they should:tie-billy the instruments of
detection."—The questiouhling put,
Mr. B. BATHURST eteelka. that:nothing could
be more correct aid ingenue& iban the manner in
which the lion9i4rablE Gentleman had expressed
himself. If nuderstood the motion, it was not
for any' general inquiry, but for authorizing the
Commit" t adopt a precise and specific line of
conduct._, Bdt they were armed at present with suf-
ficient power. The Honourable Gentleman, how-
ever, wanted to know whether Government had
taken anfineasnires to punish certain persons that
had acted a particular part in the fomenting of dis-
turbancesJ This assumed a proposition that he beg-
ged in the first instance to deny. It assumed that a
certain crime had been committed ; for to ask for
punishment without it was premature. The Right

=of
that
son to apprehend _
souse persons might
gaging the designs
fectly clear that 1
llave been given, , signs
risings in various parts of the country," &c. From
this statement 'he argued at considerable length, that
it was the bounden duty of Government to avail
themselves of all the information that had been put
into their hands, and to make such detections as the
stature of that information, and the consequent em-
ployment of such persons, warranted. At present
be would say that no such case existed as that inti-
mated in the motion. The moment it was found out
that Oliver was in Yorkshire, the course taken by
the disaffected was, to say that he was the person
who had organised and concerted the insurrections.
The real state of the transaction was, that by profes-
sing to be a deputy from London, and by pretend.
tug to look to London for support, and saying all
was right there, he might hold out encouragement.
But that those designs had long been planned, and
had been adjourned from time to time, was a fact
known long -before this person made his appearance.
As to the question wl.ether the Committee should be
directed to inquire into those- circumstances, he
'Maid say that Government knew of no misronduct
on the part of this per son in the way that had been
stated—(hear, hear) ; and there was r.o reason to bO.
lieve that he had taken any part in the explosions;
.that had occurred. His inszrucsions were to gain iso.
formation for Government, and to cottnnemeate
what he learned frt in time to time to the neighbour-
ing Magistrates, at every place to which he went..—.
his having stated that there sire 70,003 men, was
the ntmo.t point in which he was incorrect. Is was
accident entirely that brought him into the country:
he was not empossered to go amongst those persons,
but being amongst them, he thought it right to state'
what he saw and learnt; and he would put it to.
Gentlemen to say how otherwise he could have acted,
Except as far as related to his having been thus en-
gaged; his life and character were untainted by any,
body ; and when persons were brought forward
agaitast him, he (Mr. Bathurst) only hoped their own'
characters might stand as fair, and that they might
not be found to be connected with any of those per-,
sons charged with Luddism or other acts nt- outrage
—(hear, hear.)—lt was the r.atural artifice of the per. -
sons he had exposed to turn round upon him, and,'
say, " You have detected us ; now we will espase
you." The Right Honourable Gentleman proceeded
to argue on the detections that had taken place of
the intended conspiracies, which he attributed to the,
observations of Oliver and similar persons, and in-1
sisted, that from all that had trammotred, there were
strong proofs of all that had been stated in the Re-
n. The fact was, that Oliver was not at Derby,
the pleee where the insurrection broke out, and
"re it was right to assume, that the whole plan
_
have

lot the conspiracy was matured before he could _
given itany ens o.urage rent. The number of 50 cr
'4O persons only who we= committed to jail could
not he an ova-charge of severity on Government,
when so many were concerned as leaders—(hear).—
He denied that any consequence arose to individuals
from this man's discoveries, as not a single person
had been t.aktn up from his information. The de-
claration of trandreth in hid lawstintnenis respecting!

•
Oliver, was totally unfounde3.—(dr.—Fizakerley
here explained, that he had made no allusion to the
trials at Derby).—The Honourable Gentleman then
could see nothing in the Second Report of the Com-
mittee on which to rest his opinion, as that Report
was made long after the trials in London had been
concluded, and the persons acquitted, so that it re-
lated solely to the country. The person to whom
Brandreth stated that Oliver was with him at Pent-
ridge, told him he knew better, for that Oliver was
at that very time in Yorkshire. After which Brand-
reth never mentioned his name. On the whole, the
Right Honourable Gentleman contrnded, that there
was no ground for the motion, and nailing made
out to induce the House to agree to it.
Lord MILTON could not agree with the Right
Hon. Gentleman that no bad consequences arose out
of the mission of this person. This person acted in a
particular character ; on his information the proceed-
ings were to rest, and on which he verily believed
they did turn. The Noble Lord read an extract from
the Report of the Committee of the House of Lords
last Session, stating, " that although the disaffected
were looking to the metropolis, it was in the parts of
the country alluded to that the insurrection seemed
to have been confined." They thus marked the con-
neaion in the country ; and by whom was this con-
nexion kept up ? Why, by persons sent down by the
Secretary of State ; and the greatest anxiety was
shown by the Magistrates in certain places to lay hold
of the London Delegate, as the person most likely to
blow the disorder into a flame. He could not therefore
in his conscience believe but that many of the mis.
chiefs arose from such interposition ; although he did
' not at all rely on the testimony of the dying person.
He thought such individuals had Buda eight to comae
plain that it had been asserted is the House of Com-
mons they were men capable of being involved in
such transactions. On the contrary, he believed the
charges against Oliver were made by persons who
were no more concerned in those transactions than
himself (Lord Milton.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
had said that no persons were taken on the informa-
tion of Oliver; this was perhaps, strictly speaking,
the case—but might it not have co happened that he
was the cause, though not in a direct manner, of the
arrest of a great number of these men whom he met
in different parts of the country 7—He (Lord Milton)
did not complain of the arrest of these persons, though
he thought the time must come when an inquiry into
that circumstance must take place—(hear.)—lt was a
clear and indisputable fact, that wherever these spies
went, symptoms of insurrection occurred ; but where
they did not appear, every thing was quiet—(hear.)So it was in the West Riding of Yorkshire—there
violence appeared, because the fomenter of it got
among the people—(hear)—so it was in Derbyshrre.
Mr. BATHURST--es Oliver was not there:—
(hear, hear.)
Lord MILTON--" Does the Right Hon. Gentle-
man mean to persist in that declaration?"—(heat;)
Mr. BATHURST—ft He was not in the part of
that county where the insurrection broke out.'
' Lcard MILTON—tie might not have been on the

he might have mainly centri-
there by his acts in its vicinity.
, Gentleman refresh his recol-
to the tour of Oliver—he can
from two to eight o'clock,
precise at the subsequent hours.—
would not do its duty substantially and
_ for the country, if it did not now inquire
into the conduct of the men employed by Govern-
ment, and also into that of their employers.—(Hear.)
It was a little too much to hold the people of this
country in such disesteem, as to be astonished at their
holding in just abhorrence and indignation the cha•
ratters of spies and informers. It was evidently the
object of Ministers to excite alarm last Session, and
they availed themselves of every subsidiary means to
promote and extend that alarm. The imprudence of
the people in many instances furnished them with a
ground for their proceedings, and of this they cor-
dially availed dietnselves—(hear). Whatever oblo-,
guy he may draw on himself by thus candidly sta-
ting his opinion, he was ready to meet. As a Mem.
ber of the Committee, he also begged to state, that
he returned his hearty thanks to his Honourable
Friend who made the present motion, for giving him
an opportunity of seeking' further information on the
matter about weieli they were to inquire. As one of
the Committee, he of course stood only as an indivi-
dual, and had hot a single voice. The Committee
were bound to obey the opinion of the House, and
he earnestly hoped Met by acceding to the present
motion, the path cd tie Cemmittee would be made
clear, and its duties explicitly defined—facer).
Mr. C. GRANT. jun. thought the Noble Lord had
not given an anever to the cease-nations of the Right
Honourable Gentleman below him. It was quite un-
necessary to give those instructions to the Commit-
tee, hecautz they were competent to recur to the sub-
ject as before. h was completely a novel subject to
send such instructions to a Secret Committee of that'
House. But if they wet so far, aiti took the ground
of the Noble Lord, it became a prima facie case
•to see• whether the use could hind enough of
delinquency on the part cf the Government to au-
thorise this step.' Nevear- had public disturbances
occurred• which parties had not charged Govern-
ment with being the authors of them. From 1793
to 1801 these charges were perpetually reiterated,
yet it had never been proposed to make them a sub-
ject for the consideration of a Secret Committee.—
Nothing whatever had been prolved with respect to
those instigetions of which so much had been heard,
and consequently there was no ground fur any spe-
cial instruction to the Committee. There had been
no proof that Oliver had been the instigator of either
of the insurrection's, as they were both arranged prior
to his intercpurse with any of the people. If his in-
terference could have been proved, ie-was astonishing
that the Learned Counsel who so ably defended the
prisoners at Derby, did not avail himself of Oliver's
presence, by bringing him up from the place where
he stopped. It was the only ground on which the
case of his clients could have stood e and he would
ask any man whether, if a British Jury could have
fpund them guilty under such circumstances, they
would not have recommended them to mercy? Al-
luding to Brandreth's declaration, he contended that
no weight could be placed on it, and argued, that
the fact of Oliver not having been called melte trial,
was the strongest proof of his interference not being•
a fact. Unless, therefore, an extraordinary case of de-
rlineeneetcy could be made out, to cause so novel a de-
viation from the usual course, he should give his op-
position to the motion.
Me-BENNET did not think the House or the
Country could look for anything from that Commit-
tee, named as it was by Ministers, for the purpose of
defending themselves. He wasy however, induced
to support the motion, because it would put to the
test a case which he should establish, that the Com-
mittee, as was said by an Honourable Friend below
hitn, was one of the grossest juggles that were ever
played off—(hear, hear.) They had assembled at two
Committees already, in which the case of the Crown
was laid before them, but the case of the people was
withdrawn. But all that he asked was, that the case
of the people should be heard. In the midst of their
distresses they had been visited by one of the greatest-
plagues that could fall upon them, namely, that the
Government thee: ought to protect them, had sent
among them persons to drive their to desperation—
(hear, hear.)—With respect to spies generally, he
should not stop to give any opinion as to the employ-
ment or non-employment of them. He knew how
difficult it was to draw a nice line between those who
looked for reward through the information they
gave, and those who thought they were performing
a public duty by such conduct. But he knew that
the person employed by Government had done acts
that he could not think of with But shame, or speak
of without indignation and disgust. It was known,
that ever since 1812, such persons had kept that part
elf the Country that was the scene of the late insur-
rections in the greatest alarm. There was a captain
of the gang of spies who had lately published a book
upon the subject. He was a Captain of Militia, and
had received his instructions from a gallant Officer
now no more, and of whom therefore 'he should say
nothing. They were to get a number of men listed
in, as it was called, and that was sworn in the most
sacred manner, to act as spies, and to bind the poor
deluded people by a similar oath, never to discover
the nature of their proceedings ; and this, on the part
of the spies, for the sole purpose of violating their
oath, by exposing those they had entrapped. He
did not set himself np as a peculiar moralist ; butlie
should consider the religion he professed to be false
and disgraceful, if he were thus to lend his counte-
nance to such infamous acts, by which all laws, hu-
man and divine, were to he broken, under the pre-
tence of supporting Govereunent. With respect to
Oliver, however, he was prepared to meet the charge
of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had so ar-
dently supported his character, and the House should
be the witness between them ; and when they bad
heard the case, he would say they dare not refuse
giving those instructions to the Committee—(hear,
.-.)—There was Mr. Castles, whose evidence was
believed by the Judges and by the Attorney-Gene-'
ral, but, thank Gov, disbelieved by the Jury—(iteer,'
hear, hear.).--This much-favoured witness, this bully ,
of a brothel and vender of forged notes, in order
that he might look better than he was, bad been clo- I
thed by a Police Ma .strate. This sheaved the care .
sad attehtiou that Csovetnsamt thought proper to
pay to such persons. 'But as to Oliver, he could tell

(hit Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that so far
his being of a pure, and unsullied character, Le ,al--
branded with infamy. He had begun his caret II
'oue of those crimes that fellowse him
committed to advance themselves in life--by a 44
on a defenceless woman. He had, like his asx.:-.,„.
Castles, committed the crime of bigamy, 71;
were other parts of his character which, The‘thei:
Gentlemen should think fit to put-him in the boa s
a witness, he would shew were so base, that new
to the mercy of others the life that he holds is
he would say no more on this point to the Hazes
rable Gentleman now. The Hon. Gentleman
went into a detail of his history as a spy. Rebels
by stating that he owed his first introduction b:)*
public by getting acquainted with a small society
respectable persons, who met to obtain a C.
tional Reform in Parliament ; that on the 24i- ,
April last he started from London under a fei
name, to see Mr. Pendril at Liverpool ; that 1:e.21
acquainted with a person of the name of Mi
who introduced him to a friend at Bath, Earned,*
and it was proposed that a few individuals ,
meet him as a sort of general delegate for disc,*
the subject of Parliamentary Reform. 77%,
stated he was going to make the tour of Derby, Ns
tingham, &c. to get petitions. He told theni ti
proceedings were too tame ; that he had beer s
gaged with Despard, and had effected the e!caft d
Thistlewood and young Watson, and furnisbeddal
with money. He then left Liverpool, and by ata
of juggle his companion waearrested. He use.. 4
tell the persons he met, that it was his opisioz
that of his friends, that it was of no usepetizic
and that they must resort to physical fact ;
found they objected to any violent procerir.r. T
meeting on the sth of May was not accide-..u.,
himself formed it ; and when he came, I.e fc.7.1
delegates, twelve in number, from
Leeds, Wakefield, &c. &c. and these pocr
individuals naturally considered him as a eye
man. He told them to Ica for assistance :

1
London, and that it was necessary to tarn cut
all the arms they could collect. He then told
to take a card, and write on it the number of r
they thought would turn out, and sign it sith tel
names, and he (Mr. Bennet) firmly believed tha
was from one of those cards that the Commit err
med their opinion that 70,000 men were resdyto.
in insurrection. All these facts there were

ready to prove on oath. In a few days aflerva...til
was in London, and went to visit 'Mitchel in C
bath-fields, where be was confined in the how cf
Governor, and watched by spies, to see if they :c;,l
draw any thing from rim. He here propcse •
Mitchell to write to Ms filends in the North, c
if he could induce them to make an appeal maxi
but Mitchell refused, and said—" I believe jet
a traitor, and I beg you will quit my presence, 4
never let me see you more." The next tune hen
heard of was at Derby, though the Right }ln •
tleman denied he had been there. (Mr. 13.11..±
explained, that he had not denied his having
Derby, but had said he was net at the plat.: ckt
the insurrection broke out.) He would now real a
statement which, though it was not an affidavit, •'•
contents of it might be relied on. The Hon. C
tlemzn then proceeded to read a variety of pt...t,
culars respecting the conduct of Oliver st!-I
the Talbot Inn. Oliver told those to whcm I.e al
dressed himself that all legal means hag been
already without effect, and the
peoplewere resolved to petition no more. It was COW •
cessary to have recourse to the only mear.sleft-1. ,
sical force. The Londoners, he said, on!), waitedi
the country people to join them to begin. Whet:cl
the would not come into his views, his reply wa-
" you are mistaken there. Half the country is •
to rise already—at Bijringham, Sheffield, Lan
and all the manufacturing tovms, the people wa
ready; at Leeds they were almost all arir.ed, and cr
with difficulty be kept down. In Londontli..re
70,000 men ready to act against the Goren:atr
he himself could raise 50,000 ; NVooler, who sexy
excellent fellow, was to print the proclamation of -
insurgents, and he (Oliver) was to write them:-
He then described the route be proposed to tale,
order to see that altthe people in the places
he had mentioned, were ready to co-operate s
the people of London. ( Hear, hear.) One inn,
bricklayer, he persuaded to go to Birmingham,.
make observations on what was passing ; and as
man had not five shillings in the world to carry 'cs
there, Oliver said he would write a letter for bin
carry to a gentleman in that place, wino would
him plenty of money. Such a lettei he accord'.
wrote ; but the poor man tos whom it was v-r.
alarmed at seeing a number of persons. taken so
his neighbourhood, destroyed the paper. lie,
ever, would prove that such a letter had bees •
to him, and other witnesses would prove that is.
been written by Oliver. He then went to Nor-4-
ham, where he endeavoured, by ratans sirii:z •
those already described, to excite the people to x 3
of insubordination ; and there, he would te'l
Right Honourable Gentleman, Oliver had seer.frn..
dreth. He would prove this on the affidavit ot
person who had witnessed the meeting.—}r"
was that?' was asked from the opposite side.l
would not name the individual, but if de i-ncl.l
were granted, he would produce a witness to pio
the fact—(beer, hear.) The affidavit in questio
thought was confirmed by a statement made
Brandreth to his Solicitor previous to his trial. !II
lof the statement he would read, and he shouLAX
the less readily do so because it contained a cars'
sion of the illegal actions of which Brani#e'l.
doubt, was guilty. In proof of what he had sahi3
the system which had been acted upon, he cou:410
produce the evidence of a person of the named'
yens, who was at present in America. The affilili
which he then read described Oliver to hare
the same part as at the Three Cannons publicidA
where he met Brandreth, that he had preriousl!X"
ted, and to have told the same story with respect.r°
the determination of the Londoners, and the prx-'
station intended to be printed by Wooler, trig It
had told on other occasions. The statement of Bro
dreth set forth, that Oliver, at the Three Cacao
had told him that he was going round the coi:TS
to Manchester and other places, to see that all 11
right, and that he intended to return by Deill
London. He said he could raise seventy theuna,i,
men, and pointed out various objects which it isoi•L
be for them to secure, immediately on the brelil of
dta of the insurrection. lie eubierpicntly paid .`

C;entleman here read the concluding identical spot, and yet h
the Second Report of list year, which ibutodte what occurred t
it although the Commktee had seen ma-. Dot lei ejse Right Hon.
fiend that the language and conduct of latiska *little relative t 4
is might have had the effect of encou- recollect what occurred
designs of the disaffected, it was per- but he is not so precise
that before such encouragement,. could The House would not d
riven, there were signs of- simultaneous effectually for the count
_ _