Star.
London, England, 1820-09-19 00:00:00

NEW WRIT FOR ABERDEEN.

Course of the evidence. ' It appeaivd that some of the witnesses
Ihad received very large sums of money, and be thought. his
Majesty's Ministers, so far from opposing his motion, would be
glad of an opportunity of' removing part of the odium attached
to the proceedings, by shewing that the expenditure could be
properly accounted for. He should include in his motion an
account of all the expenses incurred by the persons composing
the Milan Commission—a Commission which, in his opinion,
reflected anything but honour upon the Ministers who employed
them, and the country with which they were connected. He
should move for an account of all the expenses incurred from
the period of her Majesty's departure from England. in 1814, up
to the present time, hi the prosecution now carrying on against the
Queen, including all sums expended by our Ministers in foreign
Courts, and all sums paid on account of the Milan Commission.
Lord C A sTLE REA GH said, tipit if the motion of the ho-
nourable Gentleman had merely for its object to ascertain the
gross amount of the expenditure incurred in the. proceedings
against her Majesty, it might have been acceded to olhout any
serious inconvenience, though at the present moment such an
aCCOUCt was nut, perhaps, very juoiciously called for, since it
could not but be extremely unsatistactery. The Hon. Gentleman,
however, had distinctly stated to the House, that he made this
motion with a view of getting all the details of expenditure, and
subjecting them to an adverse examination, for the purpose of
mice:netting whether any sums had been improperly or crimi-
nally applied. Now, to whatever extent the House might here.
after think it necessary to go into such an inquiry, and on the
part of i.is Majesty's Government, he was sure that every di.-
position existed to furnish the fullest information, yet the pre-.
sent was certainly not the proper moment for an investigation
of this nature. As to auditing the accounts, he th'.eght the ex-
penses incurred either in the prosecution or for the defence,
could never be audited upon any satisfactory principle in that
House. With respect to the expenses of the Anhui Commis-
sion, it was the wish of his Majesty's Government that these
as weU as all the other expenses, should be subjected to the same
audit as was applicable to her Majesty's expenses. Both ought
to undergo such an examination at the proper season, as the na-
tore of the case admitted. The motion of the Ilonourable Gen-
tleman was altogether premature, as the vouchers were not at
present in a state of readiness, and he should beg leave, there-
fore, to move the previous question.
Mr. WI I ITII,REA L observed, that a motion similar to that
which he had just made had been made in the other Louse,
with reference to the Qtien's expenses, the amount of which
was a mere trifle compared with the expenses of the prosecu-
tion. Now, if the present was not an inconvenient period for
one motion, he conceived it could not be an inconvenient period
fur the other.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, it was perfectly understood
that the motion in the other I louse of Parliament was made not
for the purpose of examining the accounts, but merely with a
view of ascertaiiiiiig the gross amount of the expenditure. To
such a motion there could be no objection, though, for the rea-
sons he had already stated,the account must necessarily be very
Unsatisfactory.
Mr. BENNETT wished to ask the Noble Lord from what
fund theae sums of money had been drawn ? The Noble Lord
Lhad said, on a former occasion, that the l)eke of Cornwall had
A right to inquire into the conduct of his wife. Now, if he had
ra right to inquire into the conduct of the Duchess of Cornwall,
he (.fir. Bennett) conceived he bad also a right to pay the ex-
peeaes. He hoped tbe Right Honourable Gentleman nr the
Noble Lora would inform the House from what fund, whether
large or smal!, the expenses of this Inquiry were to be paid?
Lord CAS TLEREA GII said, that the expenses which had
been incurred abroad-were properly charged out of the Secret
Service money ; but from the moment the Investigation assumed
the character of a Public Inquiry it wonld be charged among the
Civil Contingencies. Ilis Majesty's Ministers were prepared to
submit all the items charged out of the Secret Service money to
'the same audit as every other part of the expenditure.
!Me: HUME said he recollected when the vote for Secret Ser-
vice Money passed, he put a question to the Noble Lord ex-
pressly for the purpose of ascertaining whether any part of the
large:eum then voted Lad been applied to this object,,and he
had been unable to obtain any distinct answer from the Noble
Lord. ' Ile was astonished to hear it now avowed by the Noble
Lord, that his Majesty's Ministers had dared to take this money
arid employ it for the dirty purposes to which it was now ad-
mitted to have been applied.
Lord CASTLEREA Olt recollected that the Honourable
Gentleman had put a question to hips as to the gloss amount of
Secret Service Money, and that he stated upon that occasion
that half the whole sum charged was due out of the last year.
In fact, the whole amount did slot exceed £e 000 or £9,000 in
any one year. Considering the nature of the inquiry, it was de.
'kaiak-to conduct it with as much sea esy as passible, and the
fund which had been resorted to was precisely that which was
best calculated to meet the expenditure.
Mr. Al A BER LEY was bf no means satisfied with the ex-
planation of the Noble Lord.
Mr. CREEVEI said, it was furnishing a dangerous prece-
dent to take money out of this fund Without a vote of the House.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that these sums were properly
charged upon the Civil Contingencies. The fund expressly pro-
vided for such expenses of a civil nature as could not be made
matter of estimate.
Mr. CREEVEY said, the granting of this money was one of
the many anomalies of this proceeding. The Noble Lord was
of opinionetbat the secret service money was precisely the fund
out of which the expenses should be defrayed; but be (Mr. C.)
could not help thinkieg, that if secret service money were de-
voted to such a purpose, there was no one object to which it
might not, with equal propriety, be applied. Could the House
think it had ever entered Mr. Burke's contemplation that secret
service money would be employed for the purpose of keeping
the King's wife abroad? If so, it was high time that the Act
for regulating its application should berevised, and that some
security should be afforded against so gross a misapplication of,
that fund. It was a mere private proceeding, 'wither more nor
less, and he protested against burthenirig the Public with any
part ()tithe expense.
Mr. BENNETT wished to know at what precise period the
Noble Lord deemed the proceeding to be one to which secret
service money was no loner applicable?
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the proceeding became of a
I public nature from the time the Message was sent down to both
houses of Parliament. The sums taken from the fund for secret
service would be laid before Parliament in the same manner as
the expenses incurred for the defence of her Majesty.
Mr. HUME wished to know, whether the ,Milan Commis-
sion had acted from the outset under the sane ' and with the
approbation of his Majesty's Government?
Lord CA STLEREA G II said, the inquiry had certainly been
conducted from the commencement with the full knowledge and
approbation of Government.
Sir GERARD NOEL said, his decided opinion then was,
that the House would act criminally, if it consented to burthen
the Public with one shilling of We expenses.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said he was ready to agree to a'
motion for an account of the expenses incurred on both sides in
the proceeding now pending against the Queen, as far as the
same could be made out.

Sir G. WAR RENDER moved fora new Writ for a Mem-
ber to serve in Parliament for the County of Aberdeen, in the
room of J. Ferguson, Esq. ciccgawd.

KROUS, THE COURIER.

Sir ROBERT WILSON, seeing the Noble Lord in his
place, wished to ask a question upon a circumstance, which be
conceived to require sonic explanation. He understood that a
man of. the name of Krous had been employed by the Milan
Commission, not as a Courier of 3overnment, but as an extra
courier, and that upon one occasion, when he was on his way
hum Milan to England, he was detained at Paris upon a charge
Qf havinE, attempted to utter forged English notes to the amount
of 2t 510. Having stated that he had received the notes at
Milan, the French Government had sent thither to ascertain the
fact, and the man was in the meantime to remain in prison. It
had been said, that though the individual could not be found,
from whom Krous had stated be bad received the notes, yet he
had been released at the instance of the British Ambassador, Sir
Charles Stuart.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the individual alluded to
had been long employed by Goverrment, and had brought dis-
patches from Milan. The character.of the man had since been
why justified, the French Government having abandoned the
charge, and he was now reinstated in Ibis employment.

EXPENSE OF THE PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE QUEEN.

111 r. WIIITIiREAIJ rose to move for an account of all the
monies expended in the prosecution of the IRII of Pains and
Penalties against her Majesty. At any other time he should
have felt himself bound to conform to the regulations of the
House, by giving the usual notice of this motion. He could not,
however, conceive that any opposition could be made to this
motion, and he was induced to make it at the pretest momora
In consequence of the circumstances which had come out in the

Mr. R. DOUGLAS said, the Honourable Gentletnan had
entirely mistake's the scope of his observations. He bad ex-
pressed no opinion as to the necessity of restraining the liberty
of the Press, but he had said what, as a Member of Parliament,
he had a right to say, that the object of a part of the Press
seemed to be to intimidate Parliament. Fur his own part, be
would never he deterred by that, or any other consideration,
from acting in the manner which he thought consistett with
justice and propriety.
Mr. CSIi.ISSON said, that the lion. Gentleman appeared
to allude to him, as having stated on a (ensure occasion that the
plate in question could not he disposed of by any act of the late
King. The lion. Gentleman had awed, not indeed of his own
knowledge, tit it this plate was now in the hands of an indivi-
dual. He was ready to admit, that if this could have been
,shewn to be the case, nothing could be more irregular and cen-
surable. Ile felt persuaded that such a statement must be ut-
terly unfounded, and upon applying to his Hon. Friends Lear
Lim, he found that the plate alluded to had never been out of
the custody of the Lord hamberlain since it was rector( dto
him upon her Majesty's departure from this country. Whether
any plate with the Royal arms stamped u 1 on it, was or was nut
in the possession of an individual, was a fact which he was un-
able to determine. It might happen that an individual was in
possession of plate of this description, without such plate having
been pre iieeted by his Majesty. lie repeated, that no plate belong-
ing tothe Crown, acid purchased out of the money charged on the
Civil Last, could be granted by the King as personal property.
Mr. IIUMI eapre.:sed himself satisfied with the exile:la:ion
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. There was one part of his state-
ment which the Right Hon. Gentleman had misunderstood, and
which lie wished to correct. He had not said that the plate was,
but that it had been in the possession of Mr. Street,
PORTUGA
Mr. HUME said, that in consequence of various reports of
an alarming nature, he wished to know from the Noble Lord op-
posite, the uature of the relations which subsisted at the present
moment between this country ;eel Portugal?
Lord CASTLERF:AGH thought it could scarcely be ex-
pected that he should express any opinion upon such vague ru-
incurs as those alluded to by the Honourable Member, or that
the :Members of his Majesty's Government should be called
upon tc give au opinion upon evens which had recently occurred,
and with regard to whi.lethey hail in tact received no authentic
information. He hoped that this would be deemed a sufficient
answer to the Honourable Member's question.
Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report i f the Committee
appointed to examine the Lords' Journals with respect to the
Queen, which Report described the state of those proceedings
upon the adjournment of their Lordships' House.
Upon-the-Report being read,
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved, that the House should at
its rising adjourn to Tuesday, the 17th of October. By that day
he calculated that the House would be able to find its way, and
to determine, from the proceedings of the other House, to what
farther period it might be expedient to adjourn. If the Bill of
Pains and Penalties should come down from the other House, it
would he obviously desirable that that House should be called
over, with a view to render the attendance as full as possible;
and, therefore, he thought it proper to mention his intention to
r opose that the House should be called over early in November.
!'his he stated now, in order that Members might be in readi-
ness to attend within the period of three weeks after the day to
which his present motion referred.'
Mr. II h: asked, whether the Noble Lord had received
any communication as to the probable extent of the Defence for
the Queen, or what time it was likely to occupy? Because, if
the Noble Lord had had nu such information, he might be-pro-
posing to assemble the House to no purpose, bat merely that of
a further adjournment.
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that he wished the House
to be left open for the exercise of its own discretion as to the
period of any farther adjournment. If the Bill of Pains and
Penalties should be brought down from the other House, it was
his present intention to move a farther adjournment to the sth or
10th November, and that the House should be then called over.
Mr. HUME thought, that if it were possible., the adjourn.
ment should now be fixed for such a period as should afford the
Lords an opportunity of deciding upon the fate of the Bill of
Pains and Penalties. This he conceived the better mode of
comulting the. convenience of the House, and therefore he took
leave to suggest to the Noble Lord the propriety of fixing upon
some more distant day.
Lord CASTLEREAGH conceived it more advisable to ad-
journ to the day stated in the motion, and then it would b.. open
to the House to fix upon some day in November wile.; it might
be convenient to meet for the dispatch of business llis view
was, he repeated, that if the Bill of Pains and Penalties should
be adopted by the other house, that Assembly should lie called
over within three weeks afterwards, as in a case of such delicacy
it was obvious!), necessary that as little delay as possible should
be allowed to take place.
Sir GERARD NOEL could not think what the Noble Lord
meant when he talked of delicacy in this business. Surely he
did not mean to say that his Majesty'a Ministers had treated the
House delicately respecting it. On the contrary, they had treated
the House just as a huntsman did a pack of hounds—they
turned them out, and whipped them in, just as they wanted
them—(laughter).
Lord F. OSBORNE took occasion to ask the Noble Lord,
whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, as
he understood, to omit the 2lause of Divorce in the Bill of
Pains and Penalties? It was said, that in conformity with the
opinion of certain religious persons, such an intention existed ;
and that the Noble Lord at the head of the Administratior,
than whom a more religious, moral, and honourable man was not
to be foundin society, had avowed the intention in the other Ilou *
of withdrawing this clause of Divorce. If this, clause, then,
were to be withdrawn, was it still meant to proceed to a degra-
dation of the Queen from het rank and privileges? By the Act
of Edward 111. the Princess of Wales and the Queen stood in the
saute situation with regard to adultery. But if the conduct of the
Princess of Wales val.re taken out of that Act, she was placed
in the condition of any ordinary woman, and could only be
proceeded against according to the ordinary laws of the country.
Was it, notwithstanding, intended by Ministers to make the
Queen responsible for the alleged misconduct of the Princess
of Wales? But with respect to the misconduct imputed to the
Queen on this occasion, it was known that many Princes in
our own history, who had been betrayed into great irregulari-
ties in early life, while their paseions were too warm to be
cuntrouled by their reason, had yet proved themselves good
Kings ; and, in his judgment, it did not follow, that whatever
irregularities the Princess of Wales might have committed, she
would nut therefore prove a good Queen. On this ground he
asked, whether, if her case were to he taken out of the statute
of Edward, it was still meant to press that her Majesty should
be deprived of her rank and privileges? To this question, as
well as to the leant with respect to the clause of Divorce he
wished the Noble Lord to make some answer, in order that the
House might be aware what sort of measure it should be pre-
pared to !relive wan :his subject.
Lord CASTLEREAGH thou* that the last question put
by the Noble Lord with respect to the statute of Edward
would rather form a part of the argument upon the discussion a

. .
Mr. liiiiTßßizip accordingly withdrew his motion, and I the measure alluded to, than a question to which he could be
the motion suggested by Lord Castlereagh was put and agreed to I called upon to make any
Friend to state In the other lkuse wasany reply. At to the other question, what
W Sir ROBERT ILSON moved for an account of the aggre- ,be understood N his
gate amount of the Fees received in the Southwark-Coutt of this—that he was authorised to say his Majesty was not anxious
Requests.—Ordered. • upon this subject for any personal relief, regarding the mea-
sure entirely of a public nature, and that therefore he was
PETITION AGAINST THE PAINS AND PENA LTI ES BILL. I not desirous to press the clause of divorce. Oa I question, how-
Mr. HUME presented a Petition front the l'rovost, Magis- I ever, of this description, he hoped the House would feel the
traces, Burghers, and others of the Burgh of Montrose, praying
I, delicacy and difficulty in which he would be involved If called
that the house wduld reject the inll of Pains and Penalties ' upon to answer for the statements of his Noble Colleague in the
against the Queen, if it came down from the other house of other House—Wear, hear.)—But what he understood his Noblei
Parliament. 11e begged leave to luake a few observatious, in Friend to have said on the occasion alluded to was this--that he
consequence of what had fallen front the Hon. Member for 'teas not disposed to`preFs the clause of Divorce.
Dumfries (Mr. Douglas), who had urged the necessity not only Lord F. OSBOIL NE said that the Noble LOrd at the head of
of restraining the Liberty of the Press, but of checking the cur- i the Adniinistration was understood to have said, that he was
rent of public opinion In regard to the Addresses to the Queen , willing to give up the clause of Divorce.
which poured in from all quarters of the kingdom. The same I Lord CASTLEK EA Gil stated that he understood his Noble
body, whose Petition he now presented, had drawn up an Ad- I Friend to have merely said, that he did not consider this clause
dress to the Queen, and he was able to boar testimony to their . as a matter of importance.
high respectability. In the observations which the Ilonourablei Mr. P. MOORE asked whether it was.the intention of the
Gentleman had thought /It to make., upon the Press in general, Noble Lord, its consequence of what took place upon the picies-
t
sition of an Address for the liberation of Sir Manasseh Li p a,
he appeared to hare forgotten that a part of that Press was
who was now at liberty, to restore Mr. Swann to his liberty ?
under the influence and coutroul of his Majesty's Ministers.
He knew not whetlier there was any foundation for the asstr- , Lord CASTLEREAGH said that he had taken no pan in
tion, but it bad been publicly stated that a part of the Plate the subject alluded to by the Honourable Gentleman, the matter
which was formerly in the possession of her Majesty, stamped resting entirely with another department of the Administration.
with the Royal arms, had been seen at the table of Mr. Street, I The House adjourned about half-past Eighr'o'clock, until the
the Editor of The Courier. With respect to the manner in which 17th of October. 311 NO ILT Y
Addresses had been conveyed to her Majesty, the observations or mit. ii.lationse's MOTION TO PROROGUE PARLIAMENT.
of the I ionoorable Gentleman were wholly inapplicable to that Bennett, l'.U. Hughes, Colonel Noel, Sir Gerald
carried up by the Corporation of Montrose, for that Body went Bernal. a. itLberiy, J. ben. Osborne, Lord F.
to her Majesty in coaches and four. lie had himst If seen the Coke, Thomas W. Martin, John Palmer, C. F.
Seamen's Address carried sup, and the whole proceeding was aP.
...etvey, Thomas Moore, P. Whitbread, Saimaa.
conducted with the greatest propriety. I Ti." fiz,—.l. C. 11W/house and Sir Robert Wilson.

THE EVENING STXR.

LONDON.

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 1820.

The House of Commons met yesterday, •ecord-
ing to adjournment. The CuAtscat.Loa of the EP,
CHEQUER moved for the appointment of a Select
Committee to search the Journals of the other House
pith respect to the proceedings had against the
QUEEN, and to report to the House, which was cat--
tied by a majority of 68 to 14. It will be seen from
our Parliamentary Report, that Lord CAssten CAOII
did not deny that obstacles had been thrown in the
way of her MAixamv's Agents, by the Austrian Go.
vernment, but, according to his Lordship, this ori-
ginated in no unfair pattiality, but in its inflexible
adherence to official forms, and the prosecution had
experienced similar inconvenience from the same
Cause, in consequence of which some important Do.
cuments wanted for the prosecution, did not arrive
till after the ArroaszT-GINERAL bad closed his case.

In speaking the public feeling in favour of the
QuEEN; his Lordship held a very different.language,
from that of her MAJESTY'S daily calumniators, who
in their trashy columns assure us that this feeling is
shared by few persons of any. .respectability. His
Lordship most kindly found an excuse for the general
blindness of the Public as to the merits of this great
question, by ascribing it to 6, a generous delusion,"
which called on the Public to support i female under
•
accusation.

Mr. CREEVET delivered some severe observations
en the manner in which the proceedings have been
conducted in the House of Lords. He alluded parti-
cularly to the cheering and other marks of partiality,
which the Counsel for the prosecution occasionally
received, and for which her MAJEs-ry's Judges had
been rebuked by her Counsel.
Some discussion took place with respect to the ex-
penses of the proceedings, and the sums issued for her
LlAJEsrfs defence, and accounts of-both were or-
dered to be laid before the House.

On a question put by Mr. HUME, on the subject of
the rumours afloat respecting Portugal, Lord Ces-
TLEREAGH stated, that Ministers were yet in posses-
sion of no authentic information as to the recent pro-
ceedings in that country, and were therefore unable
to deliver any opinion with regard to them.