The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-06-28 00:00:00

good schools were such schools as the government, or the
noble lord the secretary for the home department, should
deem good. After some few observations the document
concluded thus—" The power of giving pecuniary relief,
however limited, would be sufficient to induce all the charity
schools- to place themselves under the management of the
board." (Hear, hear.) For his part, he (Mr. Cresswell)
was not prepared to give that power to the committee—a
power which was virtually bestowed upon them if the present
grant were made. (Hear.) Concurring, as he fully did,
in all the sentiments which had been expressed by gentlemen
on both sides of the house with regard to the necessity of
education, and the deep interests involved in the general
question, yet he could not consent that that house should
take upon itself the part of entirely sanctioning or conferring
upon that committee such an irresponsible power as it would
hold, and that too without the interference in the bestowal
of that power of so important a branch of the legislature as
the House of Lords. (Hear, hear.) He, for one member
of that house, could not consent thus, by what he should,
but with all possible respect, designate, as little. better than
a manoeuvre, that the House of Lords should be deprived of
all legislative interference in this matter. The hon. member
again referred to the paper published by the Central School
Society; and some objection having been made to its use, he
observed that he thought he was not pursuing an improper line
of argument when he stated what those who were strenuous
supporters of the present government measure thought of it.
(Hear.) He thought that the committee would have the
power which he had before condemned, and they would have
it too by means of the money which was that night sought for
from the house. It was upon these grounds that he objected
to the measure. But upon what grounds did the noble lord call
upon them to support it ? Was it because the opinion of the
country had been so strongly expressed in its favour, through
the medium of the people's representatives, that the noble lord
had been induced to bring this forward and assent to it ?
The majority of five was certainly one which would hardly
sanction such an assumption of the favourable option enter-
tained about it. (Hear, hear.) Would the noble lord put his
measure upon the ground, as a government measure, of posses-
sing the confidence of the country. (" Hear." and cheering
from the opposition.) What was the scheme, however, which
it was proposed to adopt in this education plan ? Why, al-
though many gentlemen had spoken of the measure on both
sides of the house, they all seemed to disagree totally as to
what that plan really was. (" Hear," and laughter.) If the
noble lord had abandoned the first scheme because they did
not conceive it to be good, it should in some degree follow
that those were incompetent for the task who undertook to
devise a plan for national education. (Hear.) If they aban-
doned it because they could not then carry it, but still be-
lieving it to be good, they were, no doubt, bound conscienti-
ously to take up that plan, and follow it out upon the first
opportunity. (Hear.) And if the noble lord rested his case
upon the fact, that although many petitions had been pre-
sented from the country against,the plan, very few had been
sent forward against the second, The answer was, that the
very silence of those opponents, who had scarcely time to
prepare their petitions in the first instance, was the strongest
condemnation of the second plan, for had they been convinced
of its utility, they would, in all probability, have manifested
their approval. (Hear.). However, no man of common sense'
could consider the first plan bad, and the second good. (Hear.)
The noble lord would not be allowed to do what he intended
on one occasion, but he would now have the opportunity of
doing it when he pleased. (Hear.) " Give me the grant,"
says the noble lord, " and I will give it to either of the na-
tional schools." One thing had been said—that religion was
to be combined with the whole of the instruction. He would
ask, had the noble lord abandoned that plan also ? They who
occupied his (Mr. Cresswell's) side of the house had been deno-
minated extremely intolerant. The hon. member for Lambeth
had said that the present was an affair in which religious li-
berty was concerned. (" Hear," from the ministerial side.)
For his part, he (Mr. Cresswell) was by no means unfriendly
to religious liberty ; but he could not see how it was involved
in this matter. If, indeed, the term " religious freedom" was
to be defined in the same manner as " freedom of education,"
then, indeed, he might be disposed to agree in that pro-
position. Freedom of education had been described as
the right which every man of every creed possessed of
coming to the schools which the government supported.
Now, if that same rule was to be applied to religious free-
dom, he supposed • they would insist upon the right of
every man of every religion to go into and use the temples
built at the expense of the government. (Hear.) He did
not mean to pronounce judgment upon any one's religion,
but he felt himself bound not to be a party to the promulga-
tion of any principles which he believed to be wrong. Gen-
tlemen opposite might do as they pleased, but, in his capacity
as a member of that house, he would not sanction, by his
vote on that occasion, the diffusion of tenets which he con-
scientiously thought were erroneous. (Hear.) He denied
totally the position that, when they took the money of Soci-
nians and Roman Catholics, they did a violence to the con-
scientious feelings of those sects if they did not allow them
an equal participation in any national scheme of education.
He would ask them, did they violate the consciences of
Quakers, whose opinions forbade them going to war, when
they taxed them to support the fleets and armies of the
state? (Hear, hear.) They were told that the experiment
of educating the children of different sects together had been
tried already in this country, and had been successful. That
he was not prepared to admit. Two or three years ago the
corporation of Liverpool had divided a portion of their
school funds on the principle of educating persons of all
creeds, and permitting ministers of the different denomina-
tions of Christians to instruct the children of their respective
flocks. A great feeling had been excited against the plan,
and many of the Protestant poor had withdrawn their
children. What had been the consequence ? In one week
the Protestants of Liverpool had subscribed £lO,OOO for the
establishment of Protestant schools, and the donation had
been gratefully received. (Hear.) In the first instance, in
the plan of the corporation, extracts from the Bible were
used for the Roman Catholic children, while the Protestant
children were permitted the whole Bible. What was the re-
sult of this attempt at amalgamating the instruction of the
different creeds ? Why, from the summer of 1837, a school
having 320 Roman Catholics in it, had never been visited by
a Roman Catholic priest; •neither had a dissenting minister
attended that portion of the school set apart for his congre-
gation; the only clergymen who had attended were clergy-
men of the church of England. (Hear, hear.) But the pro-
portion of children educated in these schools was very small
when compared to the numbers in the other Liverpool
charity schools of the church of England persuasion.
In the latter there had been educated 8,557 children, while
in the schools where persons of different persuasions were
taught, the numbers were 3,098, and 304 of the Scotch
church. The number of Roman Catholic children had
been 1260. With these facts before their eyes, how could
any one say that the system of the combined religious
education of all creeds and sects had been introduced into
Liverpool with success ?—(hear.) Now. with regard to the
neutral ground in the Christian church, it was idle to talk of
such a thing, for as yet there had been no neutral ground
known. It had been songht for but could not be-found. An
attempt had been made to establish this by a clergyman who
had himself proposed to assist in the instruction of children
of different persuasions •, but when it had been proposed,
with a view of giving the children some common general
idea of their HEAVENLY FATHER, by joining in the morn-
ing in prayer, the Roman catholics had been obliged, by their
priests, to refnse to join with the others in repeating that
simple prayer given to them by a person whom they all alike
reverenced and adored, and for the one common object.
(Hear.) Now if priests of the Roman catholic persuasion
believed they were conscientiously discharging their duty in
this, he, for one, did not blame them ; but such being the
fact, how could they talk of neutral ground, or hope for the
success of any project of general religious instruction com-
bined with education? The House of Commons had no
right, by a contrivance of this nature, and by a side wind,
to deprive the House of Peers, a co-ordinate branch of the
legislature, of its rights to decide upon a matter of so much
importance to all classes of her Majesty's subjects. For
these reasons he felt himself imperatively called upon to
oppose the resolution proposed for their adoption by the
noble lord at the head of the home department. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. VERNON SMITH contended, that to vote a grant of
money was peculiarly a privilege of the House of Commons,
and exercised by them witnout reference to the other branch
of, the legislature ; in proof of which he referred to the esti-
mates of recent years. He preferred the present plan to
that of the National Schools, even were these attended by
dissenters ; for it had a bad effect to let the children see
their master holding one doctrine and their parents another.
Sir G. CLERK objected to the plan of ministers on all
grounds, but most especially with reference to Scotland ; as
it now appeared, from the wording of the grant, which was
expressed to be for Great Britain generally, that any schools
in Scotland which should partake the aid, where to be placed
under the controul of the education board. The Scotch peo-
ple were satisfied with their existing system of national edu-
cuation, a scriptural system, which was closely conected with
their established church. If the design of ministers in this
innovation was to establish Roman Catholie schools in that
country, which the terms of it would empower them to do,
he was sure that one universal shout of indignation would
burst from all classes of people, of whatever creeds and of
whatever politics.
Mr. SHELL endeavoured to explain away the statements of
Mr. Cresswell respecting the Liverpool schools, on the au-
thority of a Mr. Blackburn, whose account of them he be-
gan to read. Arriving, however, at a portion of it which he
thought it would be dangerous to repeat, as it treated the
clergy in very acrimonious terms, he stopped short ; but not
until he had somewhat indiscreetly admitted the tenor of the
suppressed passage.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that it was because he feared the
new proposal tended to counteract that divine object that he
felt himself bound to oppose the motion. He could not but
suspect the intentions of government, especially when he
found each succeeding speaker from the treasury benches
more and more reserved as to the real design. -The conser-
vatives were not opposed to education, but only to that vote ;
if the vote of former years were again proposed, most gladly
would they agree to it. The four ministers who were to form
the board were anything but remarkable for their anxious
affection towards the church.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said a few words, and the house di-
vided. The division gave to the powerful government which
now wields our destinies a majority; not, indeed, as on the
last occasion, a force of five, but simply a working power of
two ; the ministerials being 275, and the friends of the
church 273.

The result was received with tremendous cheering by the
opposite side.
The remaining orders being chiefly deferred, the house
adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—TUESDAY.
The Earl of RADNOR, having presented petitions in favour
of the plan, asked Lord Melbourne whether it was the in-
tention of government to bring in a bill for the adoption of a
uniform penny postage.
Lord MELBOURNE answered that it was the intention to
carry that plan into effect with ali practicable speed. He
would not, however, enter further into the matter, as the
chancellor of the exchequer would soon, in the other house,
state the whole course to be pursued by government upon the
subject.

Earl STANHOPE presented several petitions in favour of
universal suffrage, vote by ballot, short parliamer_ts, &c., and
spoke at considerable length in illustration of the causes that
led to so much dissatisfaction.
Extended conversation arose • Lord BROUGHAM, Lord
MELBOURNE, and the Duke of WELLINGTON took part in it.
Lord MELBOURNE remarked that he was against the
prayers of the petitioners, and that when the Reform Bill was
under discussion he had said that it would not realise, but
disappoint expectations, and that if it passed it must lead to
large ulterior measures.
The petition having been laid on the table, their lordships
adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—TUESDAY.
Mr. LEADEI withdrew his notice respecting the Canadian
prisoners, as he understood their case was under the con-
sideration of government, and as he did not wish in any way
to prejudice them. He begged to ask when it was the inten-
tion to move the second reading of the Canada Bill?

Lord J. RUSSELL answered that it would probably be next
week, but he could not name the day.
Lord DUNGANNON stated that on Thursday he should
move for the returns relative to Maynooth College.
Mr O'CONNELL repeated his notice that, on the same day,
he should move for returns of the correspondence between
the King of Honover and the Board of Trinity College,
Dublin.

In answer to a question from Mr. Sergeant JACKSON,
Lord MORPETH said that he had received accounts of much
distress existing in Bantry, and that government had sent an
officer to make inquiries, and which would extend along the
western coast.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that he should propose precedence
for the beer bill on Thursday, when he should move that the
report of supply, with respect to the education vote, be