Star.
London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

:HOUSE OF LORI" JULY 10.
The Earl of Mossint, and the Earls ef Seaiteosinoand, Wen,
111INGT91, took the oath. and their seat. * - •
In an Appeal from • Decree of the Lord Doneeßor. stud
' against Row their Lordships confirmed the jedgment of the
Court below against the Appellant (Wood.)
Mr. IRVING, from the Custom-House, brooghtap an Acte•-...
of the Imports from China for the last six years.--Ordered pet
lie on the table.
Mr. Dwvaii, from the Irish Court of Omacery, brought ip
Copies of Lord Granatd's Commission ac (Elsa hbifdwlais of
the County of Longford, and the of that Mk'
of the Peace for the County of Clare.
Lord KENYON presented a Petition. hem certain
hitants of the Parish of Mary-la-bonne, complaining of the ht.
creased price of Water, exacted by the Water-Works Company.
Ordered to lie on the table.
Lord A UCK LAND presented two Petitions, one of which
was from an e.dividual named Strickland, praying that the In-
solvent L.) ..t. i s Hill might be so framed as to meet his case;
and •the other from certain persons confined in Whliecross.
street Prison, who, it appeared, had before taken the benefit of
the Act, praying that its provisions might extend to them.—Laid
on the table.
Mr.. l'imarrav, Irons the Office of the Land-Tex; brought ups
Return of the hlxpenses incurred by the rate and redemption ofd
Lands under the Land-Tax for the last yeor.
The Earl of ENNISKILLEN presented a Petition from
certain Freemen forming a majority'of the Electors of Dublin,
against the clause of a Bill then on their Lordships table, to pro-
habit Masters in Chance ry from sitting in Parliament, as far as
it applied to the case of Mr. Ellis, lately returned to serve as a
Burgess in Parliament li.r that City. His Lordship said a few
words In support of the prayer of this Petition, the substance of
which was, that the clause referred to by the Petitioners, was
to have an crpost facto operation, and was dirrefcre unjust, as
it spited with punishment an act against which no law existed
-at the time of its committal, Mr. Ellis having been declared
duly elected before the clause had been inser.ed in the Bill.
On the motion of the Marquis of Laasnowa, the Papers
Which had been brought up from the Cusrt.m-House were or-
dered to be printed, for the information of the Select Commit-
tet on Foreign Trade.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN moved the sccond reading,
of the Commutation of Felonies Punishments' Bill, the Bill for
the Repeal of Capital Punishments in certain easel, and another
brought up by Sir Janes Maoeurrosm, for the mitigation
tat the Penal Code.
The, LORD CHANCELLOR expressed his concurrence in
the general objects of the Bill, but was of opinion, that in their
present state, they ought not to pass the Committee. He would
nut object to their !sting read a second time, but proposed that,
previous to their committal, an Address should be moved to the
House of Conunons for a Copy of the Report of the Committee
on Criminkl Laws, which contained the reasons on which these
Bills were founded.--The Bills were then read a second time.
THE QUEEN.
The Earl of LIVtRPOOL said, it now became
his duty. to state to their Lordships the course of
proceeding, in reference to the important affair which
was retently the chief subject of discussion in . that
House. Their Lordships were. told by the Counsel
who appeared for her Majesty, on a former evening,
'the strong desire entertained by her Majesty for a de.
lay in the proceedings then pending. In consequence,
a delay of eight or ten days had taken
.place. Sub-
sequently, and in consequence of the Report of their
Lordships' Secret. Committee, an application of a
tery different nature was made on the part of her
Majesty, namely, that their Lordships should pro-
ceed forthwith, and with the shortest possible delay. ,
He did not mean to say that such was an inconsis-
tency on the part of those who urged the objection,
because circumstances may have taken place tending
to preclude that consideration; nor did he stay for
making any comment at present. He was perfectly
ready to admit, that the call upon the House to pro-
ceed without delay ought alone to be considered with
reference to the principle of administering substantial
justice—stn object with which nothing should be suf-
fered to stand in competition. In this stage of the
business, he felt that every other consideration would
be put out of the question, notwithstanding the many'
difficulties that may piesent themselves. No motive
pi' personal convenience would be regarded as an ob-
jection, 'especially when the character of the timer
and the state of public opinion was looked to. What-
ever way any of these considerations'may apply, their
great object was the attainnst-nt of substantial justice.
He threw out these suggestii.ins for the consideration
of their Lordships, asto how far they may apply with
reference to the present state and proposed course bf
proceeding, or how they could properly begin the in-,
quiry without some assistance from the Learned
Judges. It was certainly a serious question whether
they could exercise their important ciuty, with satis-
faction to themselves, or a due regard to the public
interests, if they began it without the- presence at
least of a part of those sages of the law? if the at-
tendance of the whole was not practicable, there were
instances were the attendance of a portion of these
.was deemed sufficient ro proceed with. A long lapse
of time, therefore, would not be necessary. Upon the
whole, therefore, the shortest practicable period, with
reference to a due assistance from the Learned'
Judges, was deemed, under the circumstances, the
most aclviseable ; and as he understood-an adequate
attendance from these may be practicable about the
middle of August, he would propose that on Thurs-
day, the 17th of August, the Bill be rei,d the second
time. It was of extreme importance to the case,
that no farther delay should take place ; arid if
any application on the part of the Illustrious Lady
who was the -subject of the Bill, as to the time,
or the proposed course of proceeding, should be
shade, it would be proper and expedient that such
application should be made without delay, and with:
out the lapse of more than three or four days. This
proposition he suggested with a view to the conve-
nience of all parties; whether on the part of the Il-
lustrious Lady on the one hand, or the best interests
of the country on the other; and in this view he sug-
gested, that the longest interval fbr their consistently
receiving such an application was a few days. The
Noble Lord concluded by moving—'s That the Bill to
degrade and divorce her Majesty be read a second
time on Thursday, the 17th day of August 1 and se-
condly, that a copy of such* Order be sent to her Ma-
jesty by the Gentlecnan Usher of the Black Rod:*
Earl GREY said, that it would be more conve-
nient for Members, if, as the Noble Earl observed,
any proposition for further delay should he made
and as ranged before the day now fined 'for the re-

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111611reblitig of their Lordships was filially .I:tette.--
knui. *tied be likewise better for the course-of
•
j ,tat .whatever delay was to mow,. should '
tatiac
yep , e before the corarnencement 9f the proceed:
ShASS*lithiit there should be no interruption after-.
avitllid.' ?here might,. however, be difficulties in the
way. Of Coonsel, which possibly the- communication
pf a list of the wit:nes:o4lor the accusaoon, and a
specification of the-charges might obviate. It would
than be 'necessary to adjourn the time to such a
.Period as would Akre such witnesses to be sent for
as might contravene the statements of the witnesses
or•the Crowo, and which adjournment might allow
hi more convenient time for attendance, though .he
was Awstre that this vras a, case in' which personal
,convenience should give way to public duty. But
then it was quite as expedie,jit that deliberation in
ithe first instance should make subsequent delays un-
necessary. He looked' for no' extraordinary indul-
gence; but the peculiar nature of the case required
thatsuch an arrangement should be now entered
Oto,:its consistently With the interests of the accused,
,shcilild give the best chance of a full attendance and
uninterrupted trial. The Noble Earl (Liverpool)."
had said that it would be necessary to proceed- with
as little delay as possible after the application of the
'Counsel at the bar ; but he had not shewn the ne-
cessity of fixing the time 'for the 17th of August.—
It
would be more advisable that the attendance of
some of the Judges should be, hail in the first in-
stance, after which the proceedings couhd be sus-
' pendeJ,than that the commencement of the trial
should be fixed for the 17th of\ August, and .'.yen
suspend the proceedings afterwards. But, however
this might be, there was no good reason why a list
of the witnesses and a specification of the charges
should be denied.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL stated, that it was im-
possible that the House could have the attendance
'of any of the Lharned Judges before the timewhich
he had fixed upon ; but as to further delay before
the commencement of the proceedings, if any rea-
sonable arrangement on that head was proposed by
the other party, he would be most desirous• that it
should take effect. The other proposition of the
Noble Earl's was one to which he could not so wil-
lingly accede, he meant the furnishing of -the list of
witnesses. As to the particular charges, he thought ,
they were fully stated in the preamble of the Bill ;
and as to any further specification he could only say,
that he would give it a patient considerations but,
with respect to the 'furnishing the list of witnesses,
he was perfectly satisfied, and he would give his rea-
sons for it again, that it would form a most incon-
venient precedent, and oue not consistent with law.
However he would leave it to be 'argued hereafter,
upon a more deliberate opinion.
Lord more
observed,- that when Counsel
was lan beard et the Bar, they prayed for an imme-'
diate- proceeding ; but• although that was one 'of their
requests, another was, that they should be furnished
with a list of the witnesses and a specification of the
charges. The Noble LOrd who had just sat down,
had not expressed 'upon the latter subject a very de-
cided opinion ; but perhaps he could call his atten-
tion to seme'points. which niight enable him to form 4.
a right judgment en the matter. His Lordship then
called for the reading of the 47th Standing Order
the substance of which was, that on trials of persons
before the House of Lords, which, as it was the high-
est Court of Law, oughts to afford right to all others,
Icopies of the charges should be given to the accused
a sufficient time before trial to enable them to make
their defence; and they, should be allowed to conduct
their cause by COunsel—or if Counsel should refuse
they should be assigned by the Court. The Order
having been read, his Lordship said, that he did not
wish to take the House by surprise, but if the date
of the Order was correctly entered, it made it impe-
rative upon the House to communicate to her Ma-
ljeity the, substance of the papers contained in the
Green Bag. He could not see why, in this point, they
should deviate from the practice of their ancestors.—
His Lordship then cited a case which had occurred
in the year 1624, in which the House was in a sin-
gular situation -in reference to the then Lord Trea-
surer Middlesex. A Secret Committee had been ap-
pointed to inquire into the state of munition and
stores ; a Report was presented from that Committee
on the 2d of April by the Archbishop of Canterbury,
.sus Chairman, which Report stated that evidence had
been given on the Committee reflecting on the cha-
racter and honour of the Lord Treasurer-Middlesex.
The House then appointed a Committee to inquire
into the truth ofalie matters therein contained. The
Order to which he referred- as dated the third of
April,- and, if the date was correct, it must be
taken as coitclu,sive in its application, to proceed-
ings` inge originating in that' House, for at that timel
the House of Commons had no participation in the,
transaction, but afterwards there was a conferencel
between both Houses, which ended in the Commons'
sending up articles of impeachment; then, for the
better cross-examining -the witnesses at the Bar,
the Lord Treasurer applied for copies of the deposi-
lions,. which were at first refused, but; on the 3d of
May the prayer of his Petition was granted, and he I
received the copies of the depositions, that he might
be enabled to-prepare his just defence; it was thenH
ordered, and at the same time it was stated, that
the case might be a leading. one with posterity, that
there should be a publication of the charges and de-
positions a considerable time before the period fixed
for the final answer of the accused.- If then the date
(lithe order was correct, the whole would turn upon
the questicni of publication.. HOwever that might be
disposed of, substantial justice should be consulted ;
And if it was, its analogies afforded sufficient ergo-
11mm. for furnishing the Ilouse with the whole con-
tents of the depositions which had gone before the
Secoet Committee. At 'least, copies of the deposi-
tions should be afforded to the Judges before trial,
as was usual, that. they might-have un opportunity
Of ascertaining the credibility of tlit witnesses) and
of cornering the evidence at the Bar with the previ-

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eus testimony : though not strictly a judicial pros
deeding, it should be regula'ed as far as it couldby
judicial analogies. It was to be presorted that chefs'
of the depositions would be. afforded 'the Attorney-
Gen- ail, and he wished to Itnoej.if it -was thought
eight to communicate the tontenta of the Bag to the
Attorney-General, on what pritieiPle they -could be
withheld from the Counsel: of her Majesty? There
appeared to be a great mass of evidence, but the Re-
port upon it was of a singulaf and unprecedented qe
character. -Reports in general gave some accinmt-of
the evidence on which they were grounded, and left :
it to tbp Hooey to infer its proper mode of srocee/-
:
sug ; but the present Rep, rt contained no informao
non, no summary of the evidence, but it advised the
House to adopt a certain mode which they hia be-
'gun at once to act upon. This was the first time
that such advice had ever emanated from e soeret
Committee. II:s Lordship conclu,:ed by it"- des
chi' ing it just and necessary that a copy of the whole
evidence, if not a list of the witnesses,''should be
famished to the Counsel for theaseused. ,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that he did .noe, -
then rise to argue these points ; with respect to the
depositions, if any Noble Lord thought fit to make
a distinct aneticris on the subject, he would enter ilea)
the discussion of it; but he had heard noaiinia yet
which shook his. opinion as to the propriety of the
mode which the house had adopted. As to the case
which the Noble Lord (-/folland) had referred to, it
was, on his shewing, but a doubtful one. But if
other precedents were looked t:, it is ould be found
that Papers referred to Select Committees-of the
House had been refused or theapplication of the de:
fondant. It was so in the case 6f-Attertury; Binfop
of Rochester, who petitioned the House for Papers
of that kind, which he stated to be important to his
defence, but his application was rejected. He did
not mean to cite this case for mote than it was writ th,
but only as far as it could properly apply. . 'As to
the Report, it did not prejudice the case of the ac-
cused, because it was not upon that the judgment
of the House was to be formed. The House oasto .
come to its decision on oral testimony given at the
Bar by witnesses, who would be liable to be exa-
mined, cross-examined,' and re-examined, and to
have their characters,• as well as evidence, sifted in
every possible way. He felt that it would be a.gi eat
advantage if the proceedings, when once begun,
should not be interrupted ; and be would not object
to a reasonable delay with a View to the attainmeut
of so desirable an objeCt. If he had the option be-
tween allowing a list of witnesses or a sufficient de-,
lay, be would prefer the latter, as interruption would
throw a thousand obstacles in the way of justice. .
Lord ELLENBOROIJOH accused-Lord Holland
of inconsistency, in wishing to-have the deaositioos
put into the hands of all the Members, diet they
might be better qualified to judge, although lie bad
before-declated that the Committee, by examining
those depositions, could not but incapacitate' them-
selves for the final decision. It should be recollected
that their Lordships were invested with two_ charac-
ters, that of Heredietry Counsellors of the Crowit
and of Judges in Parliament, and it was impossible
to conceive that the Constitution would have.placed
them in a situation in which their giving adeice to
the Crown, which they could-scarcely refuse' when
called upon for it, should. incipaeotte them frO.n
acting as Judges in Parliament.
Lord HOLLAND. said, that the Noble Lord had
shown great ingenuity in misunderstanding him,-
otherwise he coutd not have supposed trim inconsist-
ent. He did think, and still thought* that the Mem-
bers of the Secret Committee disqeilified themselves
by profiouncing an opinion upon the written deposi-
tions only ; buoas that epinionhad been pronounced,
he wished the Houseto be put in possession of the
'whole of it ; not to form an opinion upon it alone,
but to compare its statements With the evidenCe given
orally at the bor.
Lord ERSKANE--ei My Lords, much as I always
desire to hear my Noble Friend (Lord Ellesaborough)-I.
am not sure I should have given way to hitu, it I had
not expected his speech would have been motetu the
matter now before us. He says we have two characters,
that of hereditary Counsellors and Legislators also, alai
that if looking at the evidence secretly in the formei`
character disqualified us for sittir.g in judgment an
it afterwards, no soch Patliamentary jurisdiction
giould have ever existed; but to that it can only bk
answered (and I am delivering no opinion on the
point), thit`if looking at the-evidence secretly affects
the judgment, as it is impossible to change the na-
ture of the human mind, the practice Canizti-
tution should Wintered. Bat that is not the ques-
tion now—the Committee has made its Report,' a
Bill has been brought in—it has been read a fast
time, and the 17th of August has been appointed for
the second reading, and the only mutter to be con-
sidered at present is, hew we are to deal with it moat -
consistently with the honourand character oftheHopsa
with the clearest safety to the accused, and in a -manner
the most congeniarto the feelings of an enlightened
people. My Lords, the proceeding is so rare, or ra- .
ther so anomalous, that it may be difficult to find a
precedent that may exactly apply to it; but I wish
to lay aside precedent altogether for a more satiss4c.
tory rule of decision, viz, for that mode of proceed-
ing which is the most analogous to -the general Kitt.
eiples of our Criminal Law, on a ease the neared as
the present, and which will hold the scales of jpalice
the most even between the accuser and the accused.
Your Lordships must anticipate that excellent Bias
lute of King William for the pretection of peeves
accused of High Treason, which gives to the aceisiad,
even before the Court is o,ened, 'a copy of aeki
anda list of all the witnesses who ate to
be examined for the Crown. What is the Principle
of this admirable law which thus bestows a pOssleoe
which in ordinary cases is denied? It iy my Amorls.
because in such a case the prisoner bassseit to coattail
with an equal accuser, or With. esol4l Seems
against Injustice. It is because lie los ta eouteasj
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