Star.
London, England, 1817-02-05 00:00:00

PAItLIZ.WLNIARY PILOCEEbIht;S.

HOU C GF I.OR 17,8 RU tRY 4.

Crrtahs not, Ac:s rt t r...inte.l by die Conyabisalooors of

the Cuatorn-.--1 Item' :b table.
Several accmt: r, cit i.t• ti from tlie Mist respectiog the
issues of 'Ur .r I.:.r,tutnt to r..cent orders Irma their Lord-
Alps which we. e !old upon the table.
A yid• ty elori:^ter.:a and returns res;:ecting the importation
of el,een.:, h !ter, :.11.1 cnal% : a:A also teat et, lug the io.tnuftcture
of eel:, tr, t! nr.tion or Lord KLNYON, ordered to be

htld In.for;• Rowe.
An t..tt!•tt..le. tSe ••!ings in the Ecclesiastical Court,
In l',c case cb: Pa wa. vresetite4 at the Bar, when
•y's I);vutte ::1.1 tc a firs: time.
• ettACtices.

The order for sunim :ling their Lordships being
teach
,Lned Viscount SID MOUTH said he rose, pu►-
snt 44 to his rimier, to prop:•se an Address to his
!tofu; Highness the 1-1,;.1CC Regent, in censequenci.
of the Mes,aze which he hod the honour to deliver
to the 1-11.usc yesterday, from his Royal Highness.
Tucir Lordships, he trusted, would all readily ima-
gine
that such a communication as this of yesterday
could not be made with"nt great pain and reluctance
ot the part of the Illustrious Personage from whom i
it proceeded, on tiuding himself under the necessity
of communicating to their Lordships and the cows-
tr7, the certain existence el 'editing' practices, of
alert: ogs, end of combinations, tending to bring into
hatred and contempt his Majesty's Government ; arid
to overthrow the whole system of the Laws and Con-
stitution of the country. They must also be certain
that such a communication would not have been made
but firm the conviction of a most urgent necessity.
It, therefore. it were the pleasure of their Lordships to
concur in the Address of Thanks which he was about
to propose, ke should immediately proceed t.) sub-
unit to their Lor.!ships, that the papers ordered to be
laid upon the table by his Royal Highness's com-
msnds, should be referred to a Committee of the
House. He would abstain from any reference what-
ever to the course adopted at any other period. In
that view, he would say that nothing could be done, or
ought to be said, until the Report c•f the Committee,
should the aoreintinent of one be resolved upon, shall
be upon the tank. All that he had to request of
their Lordsinios was, to abstain from making up their
minds mini: The result of the proposed inquiry should
be declared. He then begged them to suspend their
opinions aosi judgments, until they had an opportu-
nity of reading and considering the Report. He
had only one other eircuussouice to state, which was,
that t!,e communication made on the part of his
Royal Highness the Psince Regent, nes not founded
ups:: :thy circumstance seferring to any consideration
in the least degree personal to himself, or any dis.,
trust in the loyalty and sactions of the great body
of his Majesty's subjects, as not only himself and,
those who heard hint, bet, he believed, au over-
whelmiug majority of the people, felt the utmost
horror and detestation at the attempts made against
the per►on of his Royal Highness. But though that
atucocut mirage, and the indignities offered to the
yenta of the Priuce Regent, never had existence, his
Majesty's Ministers s in possession of iniurnsatien,
which was 1.4111_ h_710::: tad Hels: uay, that would
Live rendered it t.ieir itt.iispensable duty to have re-
commended to his Royal Highness to send such a
M.::ssage to rash emetic as that which had been-re-
cce:ly sent. The Noble Viscount them moved an
humble Address to the Prince Regent, thanking him
for his most gracious Message, and assuring his
Royal Highness that the House wculd proceed to
.take the papers and documents laid before them into
its most serious and immediate considerat.on.

Earl GROSVENOIt—., My LotUs, the Noble
Viscount has undoubtedly made a most tremendous
charge against a large portion cf the people of this
country. 1 tru,t that the charge will not be sus-
. wined ; but, at ad events, your Lordships cannot but
acquiesce in the propositifm of the Noble Viscount,
for going into this Committee, after such a serious,
such a momentous charge. Of this, however, I ate'
convinced, that, let the disaffection be great or trivial,
. it has been provoked by that disposition which has,
, been manifested, on many occasions, by his Majesty's
Ministers. in setti:l their faces against every species
01 reform, in pertinaciously opposing every thing hitt-
eremied ant* efficient retrenchment. ' (Rear, burr.)Lord HOLLAND was of opinion that no objec-
• tion could be fairly made to the course of Proceeding
sggested on the present occasion, by the Noble Se.
. .aretary of State. But he could not leave the "House
.
.iegliout expressing his deep regret at this proceeding,
whether originating in any improper practice, on the
• itaitcilindiviiluals or whether it proceeded from On
.ilnention,of any persons. iu or out of power, to create
'false iu thepresent crisis of the country, being
• brought, forward..senmethately aft:r a decision of the
House. ii:Petition, complaining of great
iediri qif. hardship, which was *ejected on the
&remind that the patty could have his redress at Coat-
' mon Law—a rejection which he thought proper, and
be would wish to try the merits of the present case
'rite same piaci*, and that it would be shewn
• .y the NobieVisecunt, that the desired remedy could
Ed be hid at the Common Law. It was brought
forward at a time. when great distress was felt by the
people, who were naturally anxious 01* their Repre-
segt.iiives should conduct themselves in a manner

_ .
, that would best reconcile them to. the Established
titws and Co:titivation of their Country. , After the
. candielstatement of the *hie Viscount, he must say
the V!ricnt was not a fit niesnent to judge respecting
silltepur measures. He thought, however, that any
law tending to abridge the liberties of the subject, was
at any time a ;peat an.t delactable evil, but more so
at a period like. this, when it was admitted on all
sides that the people generally were labouring under
igru,l: distresses. A degree at discontent must natit
ri:ny prevail; and also a persuasion that Parliament
cnchi supply refit Its more immediate and effectual
thazt . possibly could. be done. It WAS at the same
time a great consolation to see that the great body
of the people
.looked to Parliament under such cir-
CIIM3LAIICIS for redress and :Aid .;—it became there-
fore proportionably incumbent oa the Noble Lords
to thew why they recommend that Parliament should
be prorogued from time to time ? He regretted.that
under such adverse circumstances this should be the
first measure bought forward, and on grounds of
distrust and jealousy of the inclinations ot, more or
less, .a portion of the people. It was a fearful omen
that Ministers should commence with such a mea-
sure ; though he was happy to Pear the Noble Vis-
count say, it wan not conlVect with the circumstan

of the present outrage offered to his Royal Highness
In every point of view it wes incumbent on tffe
Noble Lords to make out, to the satisfaction of every
honest man, that the dangers which existed could not
be met by the laws already in existence.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL.—" My Lords, I do
not mean to trouble your Lordships with more than
a very few words on this occasion. According to
what has been said lay tits Noble fords opposite, no
difference of opinion exists as to the mode of proceed-
, jog recommended by my Noble Friend. I cannot
think—whatever diversity of sentiment there may be,
either with respect to the internal soite of the country,-
or with reference an the measures to be adopted under
that situation of thisgs—l cannot, my Lord, con-
ceive, that a more proper, a more constitutional, or,
I will add, a More liberal proposition, could be intro-
duced. than that brought forward by my Noble
Friend.—(l6or. kV% )—The general circumstances,
undoubtedly. to which the Noble Lotd opposite has
alluded, must naturally form a part of the o, nsidga-
tioii of the Committer. But, it was the wish of, Go.
ye:lament, in noticing those general circumstances,
not to suffer the Message, or the Address in answer
to it. to pledge Parliament to any opinion whatever
-oieither as to the necessity of any farther measures
to secure the fliternal peace and tranquillity of the
country. or as to the propriety of letting matters re-
main as they are. lam sure the Noble Lord who
spoke last will agree with me, that, if his Majesty's
Ministers were in possessien of the information stated
in the Prince Regent's Message, they could not have
performed their duty in any other way so weil as by
bringing it before Parliament—aro:, accroc:ing to
established precedent, suOmitting it to the ccrs;dera-
:ion of a Secret Committee—so that no person should
be bound to express an opinion, as to what should be .
done, or whether any thing ought to be done, until
the circumstances were fully investigated. This is
the course pursued on the present occasion. The
House is not called on by the Address to offer any
opinion—and my Noble Friend has strongly desired,
that no Noble Lord should prejudge the question,
and form an opinion, whatever it might be. I wish
it to be therefore understood, that we go to this in-
quiry with unbiassed feelings. I hope that Nnble
Lords will restrain their minds from coming to a
conclusion on this subject, until those who are on Ole
Committee have made their Report, and they have
all had an opportunity of seeing it, and of deciding
fairly whether acme ulterior proceedings should or
*should not be adopted ? That decision will be form-
ed, wit% every regard to the liberties of the subject—
with a strong disposition not to infringe en the esta-
blished laws of the country—with every tenderness
to the feelings of the people, on the One hand, but,
on the other, with a firm determination to uphold
the Constitution of the Country.--(Hear, hear.)—
With respect to what has been stated by a Noble
Earl (Grosvenor), who says, that there is a tremen-
dous charge made against a great body of the people
of this country, I would ask the Noble Earl. where
does he find 'hat charge ?—tEarl Gitoavanort—" In
the Speech."]—Neither in the Speech delivered on
the first day of the Session, nor in the Message pre-
sented yesterday, and now taken into consideration,
has such a charge been made. His Royal Highness,
on the contrary, had been advised to declare, that
the .great body of the-people of this country are loyal,
and are arrayed against the attempts of disaffected
and seditious persons, who might endeavour ep draw
them from their allegiance. My Noble Friend, who
spoke last. adverted to the distresses of the time
(which are admitted on all hands) as a consideration
that should operate against the enactment of new
measures. I admit the distresses of the time—but, if
my Noble Friend considers the principle which he has
advanced, he will perceive that it is not tenable.—
Designing men, I know, will be at all moments dis-
posed to do mischief and create confusion, if they
can; but my Noble Friend will allow that it is not in
time of peace and prosperity, when no distress is felt
in the country, that such efforts are likely to prevail
and become notorious. It must always be in time of
difficulty, either internal or external, that such at--
tempts can be resorted to by the designing. What
I am most anxious to do is this, to testate what is
substantively contained in the Speech from the
Throne—namely, that we ate not disposed, for a
moment, to bring any charge against the great body
of the people of this nation, whom I believe, most
sincerely, to be firmly attached to the established
Constitution. But, my Lords, we are not, on that
account, to be insensible to the fact, that, in many
periods of the history of this country, persons have
been misled by the arts and delusions of others—and,
therefore, the present state of things cannot be looked
on wit's indifference. I trust, my Lords,, we will not
shew that supineness and apathy which encourage
danger—but that we shall keep our minds free from
such feelings; and that, when the question comes re-
gularly before us, we shall look at it without fear and
without prejudice. We ought not to countenance any
unnecessary infringement of the law, neither ought
we to sacrifice, to mere names, that • which is most
essential to the security and well-being of the State."
Earl GROSVENOR shortly explained. The
Noble Lord, he thought, must not have understood
his meaning. Unless he thcught it were meant to
include some large portion of the people in the
charge, it would be idle and futile to make it, as, he
imagined, it could never be meant to take up their
Lotdships' time in considering what a few trifling
and miserable individuals could do.

Earl GREY.—He did not know that any reason-
able objection could be made to the motion now be-
fore tl:.•ir Lordships; for, when a Message came
down with a communication that • such practices'
,existed, and threatened such dangeous consequences
as were stated in the Message, it was isseduty of the
House to send that inforrnaticn to a Cosnroittee to be
examined; and the communication having been made,
a more proper course could not be adopted than the
usual mode of proceeding on such occasions. Whe-
ther the dangers were really such . as required the
adoption of any ulterior measures by Parliament,
wee precisely that particular matter on which they
would have aftewards to decide, when the whole sub-
ject should be examined and the report before them ;
and till that period arrived he should suspend his
judgment but while he so suspended his judgment,
he could not help joining his Noble Friend in la-
menting, that under the present circumstances of tbis
country, any necessity should have arisen, even in the
.opinion of the Noble Lords themselves; for coming-
to Parliament with stlidi a communication. They

had done no more than juetice to the great lindy of
the people, wiien they had erprelisr.d the it.Ue,t re-
liance nn their attachment to s arid Couttitu-
tion, even nectar circuoi.tancLs of the severest pes-
sore. White cxpised t., hardships and
ap,s: imparalii led distress extendii:g hoar. the lowest
to the higlies! ranks in the C9fnmocity, at.d operating
upon :he great mass of Gip ppulattan with a I.3VSSUre
unktiot, n at any formar F.eriod, partly tram the ina-
biiity of the Uglier cilsles to afford that relief to tl.e
lower which a; other beast-11s of &stress they had been
enabled to eive ;—while siaering under all this ac-
cumulation of hardships, Ili, people b.id displayed a
patience, fortitude, resignatvai, ant r o6i'ence in the
Parliament and Constitution ::f their co:intry, which
had never het et exhibited, under such circumstances,
by the people of any teher country on earth. But it
such were the effects produced by the Constitution of
this country, the Executive Government, their Lord-
ships, and Parliament in general, ought th consider
well before they did any thing that could impair the
confidence of the people in that Constitution. The
Noble Lord (Sidmouth) had adjiarcd their Lordslitits
to come to the consideration of this subject without
favour. without affection, acid without partiality ;
and be (Earl Grey) now repeated that adjuration,
and called upon their Lordships to come to the con-
sideration of the subject with the most rigid impar-
tiality, and with minds as averse to the diminution
of the liberty of the subject as they were favourably
disposed towards the preservation end security at the
Crown. It was undoubtedly deeply to be lamented.
as his Noble Friend had well said, that behme any
measure bad been proposed for affiatclirg relief to the
suffering population, before any scheme of reduaeaa,
retrenchment, or economy. bad been brought under
.their view, and after the importunities of the people,
and of many MemAers of the Legislature, for economy
and retrenchment, had been met with opposition or
evasion ; that after all this, the Ministers of the
Crown should now have come down with such a
communication as this: and when he considered the
circumstances under which it was made, he cnitlil
not help entertaining the most seriouf appreln esions
that this proceeding would lead to' some measure
abridging the liberty of the subject.—(Ther, hr.o.)
The Noble Lord had said, and pie petly sa;d, that
Ire would abstain from giving any opinion as to the
ulterior measures which it might be necessary to
actor, and he (Eati Grey) would follow the Noble
Lord's example in teat respect; observirtg, however,
that it would be incumbent on the Ministers clearly
to prove. in case any ulterior measures should be
proposed, that the evils resulting from the existence
of these meetings and combinations, with nothing to
check them but the ordinary law of the land, would
be greater than that evil which must result from
arming the Crown with new and extraordinary
powers. They had lately done much, in addition to
whet bad been done by their ancestors, for the safe-
ward and protection of the Crown; but he did not
know that, in addition to what had been done by
their ancestors, they bad established one safeguard
for the security of the rights and privileges of the
people. He treated, however, that they would view.
this subject with a disposition as favourable to the
preservation of the rights and liberties of the peopl:
as to the preservation of the proper powers and au-
thority of the Crown. They had seen the effects of
the enjoyment by the people of the blessings of a free
constitution ; and he hoped that nothing but the most
urgent and the most paramount necessity, clearly and
incontestably proved, and the absolute impossibility of
applying a remedy by any other means than the inter-
ference of Parliament, would induce their Lordships
to touch the least particle of the liberty et the subject.
He would, however, suspend his judgment until the
subject should be brought fully before them, with an
anxious desire to find that any Parliamentary inter-
ference would be unnecessary. Nothing could he
more impolitic, more pernicious, than to arm the
'Crown with new and extraordinary posters tinder the
present circumstances of the country, unless it should
appear to be a measure of paramount necessity. He
repeated, therefore, that their Lordships oupht to
.'vr their attention to this most momentous auhjact,
with A resolution as Atom; to protect the hill, rimes of
the subject, as to guard tae Crown from dime. r.
The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM hoed), hut
pointedly delivered his sentiments on the occasion,
which seemed gieatly in unison with those of the
Noble Lords on his side of the House. He could
not avoid observing that Ministers, by their present'
conduct. incurred a weighty and serious respnnai.
1144. He would come to judgment upon the case, in
the spirit in which a jutor should decide upon a case
of lite or death ; and be trusted that they would al!
come to the investigation divested of party prejur
dices. it would be incumbent on Ministers to }mime
at least, that the existing laws were not sufficient tot
the purposes for which an extension might be sought'
—as be never could subscribe to the argument, that.
the greater the distresses of the Country, the more
necessary it was to give additional power to the laws.
Instead of attempting to abridge their Constitutional
rights, the policy and object should be to endeavour
to give the people all those remedies and redress
which the laws and Constitution afforded to them;
and'which instead of tending to alienate, would the
more firmly fix their attachment to both. Nothing.
however, could be more weak, or mote fatal to the
:people themselves, than that false humanity which
left them exposed to the arts and delusions of those,
few in number, but desperate in disposition, who,
for the worst of purposes. endeavoured to mislead
theme—who, under the pretence of calling the atten-
tion of the people to theim grievances, awd tfereme-
dies for them, turned away their attention from their
real gtievaoces, and the real and true remedies. and
titled their minds with imaginary grievances. and
the most delusive, and eisiiinary and dangerous plane
of relief; with vain theoretical notions and schemes,
which, even when reduced to their utmost standard
of modem ation, would be found to be most mis-
chievous, dangerous, and destauctive to their own
liberties, and to the Constitution of their country.
The question was then put, and the Address was
voted near. dot.

Viscount SIDMOUTH then moved, that a Com-
mittee of Eleven Lords be appointed to consider of
the pspers and documents referred to in the Prince
Regent's Message. That the said Committee should
be appointed by ballot; and that the &asset; should
be put on the table of the House to-morrow, ler the
purposes of the said ballot.
All which west ordcred.--.4dieiereeo. •

lIP

MUSE OF CONllin No:

Mr. Rowe lkarn,cd an Account co' flt!rs. ( ,
(treentaA Fist:try, ad in tran•porting %AA : ,

tiered to lie 11.1 tb:- rab:r.

Lord A 'LEV pi.gin!eil .11. e ATI,-..er of toe
Atle.:*sll the Marrilze :ha Pri•fe,••• t.
Mr. :Au rtft BRID6C4 ttd '•a fr, eite I
\tapir, Aidtnntn, ant C.,::•-nqn ,)! the C •.•
dun, artit.g (oral the Mitre, of th• ;
Refit= In ParLanienr.—i):l.r. d r., lir

:~ •n

Lord COCI-IttANE presented a I-e:i ism ln,m terfa n 14. ,e.„
*es and other inftabit.m. c.f the town 44 414 is I.s -4
shire 044 a former evenitap, .rheri pees n Lig a I'Lt :In ,
had hetn vaable to speak to the (tomato
perAnis from whom he had received it. I. ,be pre•elit 449
he could guts to the House, that thole from vt!,orn t!. Vet
now in his d tante, were perswis or relirou.

isscluetry had herLtaforemaisatiltied them in conitur, .
pont-rat ptic,:ab!.....leturenout could not ter cilL•ei s.s
Utley Eyed, tenvenve 1.111..14111i:c, the deitz.:es o( loch

ro ootr.ilato, and the ;:rlevarcr;arls'eh, at ten7ll, CVOs.
them to come before that honourable •1 ;It
for rrtrenchment In the ilittie exrcht!i are, aid ir a ;tr• ,r

the lion., of Comasous.—:*ke. Pctltitna was read an•: todu,

lie on the Talk:.
A neer Wr.t was ordered for the rorough of We-,:tn-.
the mom of 1.0..1 Vi-euunt Ca Ati 301: ar: , who e:,:
had accepted the (.3.lltem Hundreds.
A Petition ems piemnitinl fro:i the Town of 8an,!,),.; Fr,
county of (Cork, against the Window Tat, and pt. e :
some aheratton might be made lo the r.ode of cuq...iik:
.L..
sewed Taxes.—Ordered to lie no the Fable.

Mr. ROBINSON brought in a to ret n!are Trldr
the Cape of (load Ho;.e.—Read a first, 3.4 r..:
• r cood time to-morrow.

A Perinon v.-as en:tented from the ei7el,•er-. 7,T c.
snd Cirrgy of IN:asthighaen, pr.l::fg for Z:1 alttTronn i.t ttl
Laws --thdertil to !h. on the "ta.‘le.

Mr. I.oCXll.iti I' rate notice, the nn T ht.! S.• w
move far leave tu br'ng in a B a r.vott the I .0..

The liou.e went Liio a Comnti:te± on the M tl•at

tat which Mr. Roe Newt moved, :hat the tlikir.va::
in.triseted to ow% tor fray, to brir•.g Ina Ditl toy a:e:ul • ec4
rad:rill to the tract,- front Alaita as were afforded to 04! . ; .
braltar. The Resoktion wag agreed to, the House
and leave was given to bring in the
An Account of the ourstanAs.g Licht quer BIN w:.• ()mu::
up.—Ordered to lb_ on. the Tabie
An Account of the Unfunded Debt of in land woo rrearntt,:.
—Ordered to lie on the T.Ne.

Mr. I.Y C'I•LEt'ON *Wird to know the iat.r.•lo••r !tt
Ct.anceit,..r of the Exchequer with respect to a new f,%tie
chequer Mils
•I he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHFANER decho,ti
Jug any explanatiqm on the tuhject at pre,..l:, as it tv.,41.1 to ,tg.a
come haute the House Su a regular way.
Mr. Lunn i'ON brought u the keport of 'he t:m,,.nt•ue
of Supply, wl.'.ch was .13reed to, and at Bas r“..t‘t 1 t...t
Eimar c tu.mortow gu into the Cowinuttre.

Mr. PONSONISY wished to know of the Chancel:or the
EN.::ttquer what eo.es he intende to move in the Cumn...ztct I
Supply to-morrow ?
'1 he CHANCELLOR of the EXCiIEQUER only it..:11, I
to move for a grant to meal the sl.rea,ury bills on account 01 at •
land, which were alum to become due.