Star.
London, England, 1819-03-19 00:00:00

CONSOLIDATED FUND PRODUCE RILL

The CHA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved that the House should go into a Committee
on the Consolidated Fund Produce Bill.

Mr. TURNEY understood the Right Honourable
Geeman to have moved for a paper to show the
balJnce that had occurred. He desired to know if
other papers might not be given that would better
explain his object.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that he had no objection to the production of any paper
that would give further intbrmation on the subject.
Mr. GRENFELL said, the plan now brought for.
ward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with re-
spect to the money in the hands of the Bank, was
not what the House had a rii;lit to expect from the
declarations which he had made since the com-
mencement of the Session, and especially on the Ist
of February, and on Friday in the last week. Ile
arpealed to the Right Honourable Gentleman him-
self, and to every other person in the House, if he
had not given them to understand that it was his in-
tention to take six millions out of seven that were in'
the hands of the Bank, consisting of balances of
public money, and apply them to the service of the
country. On one occasion he (Mr. Grenfell) ha'! ob-
jected to the motion announced by the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman, as being confined to one branch
of the deposits in the bands of the Bank ; and upon
this the Chancellor of the Exchequer had imme•
diately replied, that his motion would go to ca.
I:6,000,000 from the Bank, out of L 7,000,000 which
were in their hands, leaving with them £1,000,000,
in consideration of the trouble they incurred in ma-
naging the business of the country. The present
Bid, if he understood it, did no such thing. The
utmost to be expected from it was, that it might
give the country the benefit of £8,000,000, instead
of £6,000,000. This Bill would not be more bene-
ficial to the public than the arrangement made by
Mr. Perceval with the Bank in 1808, under which
the sum of £3,000,000 was advanced to the public
without interest. This Bill only embraced one of
fifty-six points in the public expenditure. The other
fifty-five were left untouched. He called upon the
Right Honourable Gentleman to say, if there was
the least probability that the public would be bene-
fited by this measure to the extent of £6,000,000 ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought the Resolution he had moved respecting the
appropriation of the accumulating produce of the
Consolidated Fund had successfully explained his
plan. If he had only touched on one out of the 56
points of public expenditure, the Honourable Gen-
tleman knew how much the public balances in the
hands of the Bank had been reduced. During the
.war :!,ey had held on the average about £11,000,000;
now on the average they held little more than half
that sum. A much smaller sum was now reserved
by the Bank to satisfy the public creditor than that
which it was formerly necessary to leave in their
hands for that purpose while the war continued. In
the present Bill there was nothing that could pre-
vent the Government from reducing the balances in
the hands of the Bank to the smallest sum that would
suffice to carry on the business of the country. For
this purpose the House knew that it was necessary
to have something in hand before it was actually
wanted, but on this account there was seldom left
with the Bank more than was sufficient to carry on
the public business for one week. After a brief
statement of several of the items which gave the sum '
total now in the hands of the Bank, he sheaved the
present measure went to
.give the public double the
benefit obtained for them by the arrangement of
1808, while the Bill gave, the 'Bank no security that
the balances still in their hands should not be further
reduced.

Mr. TIERNEY remarked, the first observation of
his Honourable Friend had been, that the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer had announced it to be his in.'
tention to reduce the balances in the hands of the
Bank from £7,000,000 to £1,000,000, by applying
£6,000,000 to the public service, and the answer, or
rather the no-answer, which the Right Honourable
Gentleman had given, served to confirm the correct-
ness of his Honourable Friend's statement. Instead
of acting on, the promise he had made, the Right
Honourable Gentleman now brought forward a mea-
sure which only benefited the public to the amount
of £5,000,000. For his own part, he believed the
Right Honourable Gentleman had meant what he
said when he first spoke on this subject, but that he
bad subsequently been forced to take the part he was
now taking by the Bank. The £3,300,000 arrears
of the Consolidated Fund, which they had.,,been
given to under4patcl was to be paid by means. of this
Bill, was prOvisidl be tti a forraer.Act of Parka-,

ment, which declared, that when any
curred in the Consolidated tend, th
issue Exchequer Bills for the amour
be paid out of the first proceeds of
The explanation given by the Chani
' chequer was very well for those whi
subject, but it was impossible for
was not very conversant with it to fol
his statement. He should therefore
tion referred to a Committee, and
seeding on the Bill postponed. '
seemed framed on a principle of d,
the House believe they were legisl,.
public the benefit of six million=,
only went to apply to their servici
'the Right Honourable Gentleman
to take the growing amount of ,
Fund, as it should accumulate. Ti
objection. He had observed trio, nix
not prevent the Government from
lances in the hands of the Bank stn
was true, but would it not be better
should now be referred to a Commi
The inquiry could not take them •
counts were already made out, and
this course would be taken, he shou.
Amendment to the Motion before
House should resolve itself into a Comm
IBill on Monday se'nnight.
The CHANCELLOR of the EX.
it was admitted. that as far as it went
good. In his opinion it went as
ought to go, embracing as k did
of the subject. He could not cons
the Committee on this Bill, but he
to refer the papers connected with
subject which was not comprehende,
Select Committee.
M. . TIE it NE Y observed. the ee
them was, as to the effect of this li
cellor of the Exchequer told them i
public the benefit of six millions.
Tierney) must deny ; and it the w 1
referred to a Committee, he would ,
ence their Report would not bear out
the Right Honourable Gentleman.
Mr. LUSHINGTON declared the
public the benefit of £6.000,000.
to their service 1.:J,300,000, to cover
Consolidated Fund ; and £2,700,000 I
advances of the Bank.
The House divided, when the numt.
the Motion, IC I.— i'or the Amendment,
city, 8-I,—The Ikuse then res.olvf
Committee, when
Mr. TIERNEY wished to know
much of the money advanced by tl.(
repaid under this Bill ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCI
as far as he could judge, about three
Mr. TIERNEY replied, that spea;
he could judge, he really did not
of it—pl lauglo
Mr. MABERLEY wished to know
it was a fact, that for the F.zcheq
were lately advertised to be paid off:
ceived interest only at the rate of
the Bank received at the rate of two)
for the same Bills which they held?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXi
he had no difficulty in replying to
the Honourable Gentleman. The Ban)
which they held, received exactly the'
which it had been agreed to grant!
in this respect no better treated than
who had advanced money at a certain
and was paid his interest at that rate.
Mr. MABERLEY said it appeared
as he had stated, and that the Public,
with their Exchequer Bills, got only ,
the Bank, who did not come in, got .
twopence halfpenny—(Hear, hear, hear.
Mr. GRENFELL observed, that the
which the Public would derive from
confined to three millions. There
why it should not extend to the whole,
Consolidated Fund. The only reason
it to the three millions, was to prevent
feting with the profits of the Bank.
Mr. MABERLEY thought it now)
how much more advantageous it would
have re&rred the affairs of the Bank
Committee. That Committee could i
accurately have fixed the proper rate
• Mr. HUSKISSON said, that so far
creditor was concerned, there was no
plain of the present arrangement.
The various clauses of the Bills were
and the Report ordered to be received
BANKRUPT LAWS.
Mr. JOHN SMITH rose pursuant
to submit to the House a Motion
Bankrupt Laws. It was on all hand:
some amendment in these laws were
was only necessary for him to make
on their present state, in order to int
to agree to his Motion—namely, t hat
sent almost impossible to say who way
not subject to them, on the ground .
cessary, for the benefit of the commerce
well as for the interests of morality,
rapt Laws should be amended. He
House to agree to his Motion for leav4
Bill to alter and amend the Laws reb
rupts.—Agreed to.

LORDS OF TIIF. ADMIRAL.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY rose, in consegi
notice, to move an Address to the
praying for a Reduction in the number
of the Admiralty. He could not brit);
question, without feeling the difficult;
tarn ; for it was far beyond his powers
any new lights on a subject which had
ID often discussed. But there was one
from which he derived some satisfaction,
,such lightened his duty; uamely, the
the question itself; and he hoped III;
from its importance, would forget that
dividual so unimportant as himself&
forward. The question had been di:
last Parliament. When he recollected
the last discussion of it, that the voice •
the House, supported as it had [keen br
minority—echoed as it was by public
one end of the kingdom to the other, he
help, that it would hoe had at least ,the

hit •Minis'ArS to act with 0 MCI
• to refrain from filling up any vacancy that
m till the opinion of the House was, had
sebject. But it had produced no such effect.
been a precipitancy, not to say indelicacy,
1g the appointment of an Honourable Baro-
i. Clark,) to supply the late vacancy, pend-
tice which he had given of his intention to'
this question. With whatever confi-
Unisters might look to the decision of the
. would at least have been but a proper re-
its opinion to have refrained from filling up
cv till the question was discussed and de-
last time that this motion was brought
the Table Lord opposite had resisted it suc-
, by stating that it was a question to be de-
the Finance Committee then sitting. For
e. was one of those so much attached to the
c,:stoms of the House, that he could not
of the new plan of throwing the responsibi-
wry question on the shoulders of a Corn.
But in this particular case, what had hap-
• following the Noble Lord's advice, and
is question to the decision of the Committee?
re;ar the House to the Report of that Com-
It was curious to observe the difference of
ants ey:pressed by the Noble Lords in the
Ind in the Committee. In the month of June
made its appearance, and upon this subject
the opinion of the Committee in these words:
number and salary of the Lords of the Ad-
seems removed from the consideration of
matinee, by the late decision of the House"
lear). Thus the Noble Lord got the House
i',;ainst the motion, by saying the subject
decided by the Committee, and then he
Committee pass it over, by telling them it
decided by the House—(Hear, hear). This
.as enough to shew how much weight was
lleport of that Committee, if its authority
-,trotcal against his motion this night. If
lity of character was any bar to the pro-
)f (iovernment in filling up the late vacancy,
r-7. to confess that the individual whom they
,atcd, had merit sufliJent to make an ex-
the rule, it any exception were admissible.
, nut the chat acter that could justify theap-
; the question was as to the necessity of the
much for the Report of the last Finance
cc, But there was another Committee which
ireJ into this subject, and he must refer to
The Committee on the Public Expendi-
-IZ, had noticed it in their Report. Of that
tta: ha might safely ,ay, that. it was as much
• tae ra•si,il7t and consideration of the House
0..; that had ever been appointed. The late
;now Lind Colche.,-..er,) was a Member of
Ryder, (now Lord Ilarrowby,) was
`..lemilier cif it ; Mr. Henry Thornton was
.tai Mr. Charles Yorke was also a Member
Ut Committee, in their Report, statcd as fol-
. Your Committee think it their duty to ob-
it ;he number of the Commissioners of the
:y is six, and that it has been found that in
:at .state of toe public service no reduction
made." This part of the Report alluded to
ty, v:hich had been instituted into the nature
tent of the clinics then to be performed by the
Cit.. Admiralty, the country being then at
But the Report went on—“ Your Committee,
think it worthy of consideration, whether in
of pe rce, by reductions in the naval force,
!a:ions departments connected with the na-
:ce, the luti.es will not be so much diminished,
low of some reduction in the number of the
:ommist,ioners, consistently with the public
One part of the recommendation of this
nee had, indeed, been pretty well attended
reducing the Clerks of the Admiralty. They
reduced from about fifty or sixty to about
There had been no consideration or hesita-
lischarging these individuals. But when the
came to be about reducing any of the Lords
Admiralty, that was treated quite in a diffe-
,,y—and why ? Because it touched their pa.
trerage. The truth was, that for the very same rea-
' that the Clerks had been reduced, some of the
Commissioners should be also removed. The
was the same for both ; there was a reduction
business. It could not be dulled that there
w less bminess than there had been during the
As a proof of it, the number of days for trans-
public business, or, as they are called, Board
as reduced from five days in the week to three.
:nre was proof enough that there was not now
bminey. How indeed could there be so
consid.oing the extent of reductions in our n -
te? The number of men voted for the Navy
was 120.000, and from thence till the end of
c, never less than from 150,(00 to 170,000,
;e number of ships in coromicsion never less
,000. Lt present the establishment was re-
to 20,000 men, and l;i0 ships of war (inclucl-
; classe,) in commission. Yet, with these enor-
reductions, the number of the Lords of the Ad-
y remained the same. It was plain that during
there ra,ist have been too few to carry on
!siness, cr that there were now too many.—
:her haind fault with the extent of the reduc-
ia the Navy, and regretted that a maritime
which should place its whole and sole raj-
'n ..tv naval forc, should reduce that force be-
i;s aticnt number. At the same time there
evidently a preference given to another service,
:'ov ever g,-eat its merits, was too exclusively
..-atrita of the Government. If a war should
break cart, it might be found very difficult
Cr: tee great body of men who would be re-
man our Navy. But there was no such
:on to reducing the number of Lords of the Ad-
:ty timing peace. If any of them were reduced,
re:•ewal of war should make it necessary to in-
t, number to its present amount, it would be
them. Lords of the Admiralty were
caa,f Neal than seamen ; and when wanted,
p•
.awry had only to hold up their bands, and they
plenty to accept the office. In one branch
the: e Lad been a reduction which he
thiriic of without regret, on account of the
01 Locality and relittion, about which so
r " said in these days. A regulation had been
"isle iv hick it was understood would be strictly at-.
Fc t..) that if any vacancy should occur in the
,a ..•.
l
napha at any of the three great naval
't be filled up from the list of Chap-
"...t%lllaciy 11 the naval scrvjce, Y 4 in the ca*

of Portsmouth, he belle4ed theft had been at ezetp- Besides this, there was another cause of business
tion to the rule. If his information was correct, an being increased in peace which did not occur during
individual had been appointed to the office of Chap- the war. While the war lasted many officers having
lain on that station, not from the list of chaplains of their whole minds turned to the naval service, had
the Navy. If he were to look for the cause of the their whole thoughts so completely directed that way
appointment of the individual to whom he alluded, it that diiring peace the impulse c ntinuedto make them
would probably be found in the result of the election devote their attention to devising means for improv-i
for the Borough of Portsmouth, to the interest of ing that service, and they were continually sending
the individual in that Borough, and to his political to the Admiralty the plans which they devised for
opinions— (Hear, hear, from Me Opposilion.)— that purpose—some for improving the hulls of ships,
—He was glad to see one of the Lords of the Ad- some the masts, some the rigging, some as to astras
miralty now come into the House, That individual nomy—and in short, on all subjects connected with
would probably be able to Worm them of the course the navy. All these were to be examined and de,
of political education gone through by the junior cided on' for though many of them turned out to be
Lords of the Admiralty, which had been described such as could not be adopted, it would not be said
.is so instructive, and so important to the. State.— that they ought to be indiscriminately rejected. All
But he trusted that that Honourable Member, and persons whollad been at sea like himself, must find
the other Members of that Board, would confine that they would be unable to get through the busi-
themselves to giving information to the House, and ness of the Admiralty, without the assistance of men
that they would observe the usual course pursued by of different habits. Much and constantly as he en-
those whose personal interests were involved in the deavoured to discharge his duty, he found, that with-
decision of the House, and refrain from voting in out the assistance of the lay Lords, it would be inn-
favour of themselves—( Hear, hear).—ln the reign possible to get on. It was to be recollected that the
of Henry the Eighth, a Board had first been ap- Admiralty had the charge of the maritime concerns
pointed to take charge of the affairs of the Navy, of a great country, on which nice and difficult subjects
and from that appointment originated the Board of occurred. It was well known that two men of one
Admiralty as now constituted. But from that time profession could hardly ever be found to agree. (1 ing/t)
till the present, there were various instances in which That was as true in the naval profession as any other,
the Lords of the Admiralty had been fewer in num- and this the Honourable Admiral, on the other side,
ber than six. He would state these instances, and whom he saw now looking at him, knew very well
was sure they were correct. In 1702 the number of —(Laughter). For that very reason it was impossi-
•
Commissioners under Prince George was only four ; ble to dispense with Boards at the outports. Two
which was the number kept up till 1706. Under Officers had bean sent some time since to Milford
Lord Hawke the number was the same. In 1715 Ihven, and they completely differed in opinion on a
there were only five. In 1717 only five. In 1775 subject of importance. He would ask the Honour-
only five, under Lord Sandwich. In the year 1789, able Baronet, who called these Boards useless, what
under the Earl of Chatham, there were six, but in was to have been done in such a case, without a
November in that year Sir F. Drake, one of the Board to decide between them ? 11 there had been
Lords of the Admiralty, died, and the vacancy oc- no Beard, the business must have been at a stand.
casioned by his death was not filled up till Novem- The fact was, that with their utmost endeavours they
ber, 1790. So that even at so late a period the could hardly get through the business. Since his
whole establishment for a whole year was only five. own appointment, he had not been able to spare half
—(Hear, /tear).—On a former occasion, When he an hour 'even to take a walk. To be sure the lay
had stated this, he had been replied ie. by-the Ho- Lords had not been kept so hard at it (La AI )
'mutable Secretary for 'the A miritlty, who„had Rut without their assistance they could not get
stated that it appeared from all the records in the through the business. There were now three lay
Admiralty, that the sum voted for the Lords Corn- Lords and three sea Lords ; but if one out of each
missioners' Salaries had never been diminished.-- class was reduced, and only two left in each, then
To that he could only answer, that on examining the the old difficulty would occur, and when there was a
Journals of the House, he had not been able to dis- difference of opinion the business would be at a stand,
covey what sum in particular had been voted in any for there would be no majority to decide, and no-
one year for their salaries, as it seemed always to be thing could be done without a majority—Oft:eh
included under the 1 head of Contingencies. laughter and cheering).
One objection which general
defroarmerly been made to any Sir ISAAC COFFIN agreed to every word that
reduction in their numb% was, that by their Corn- had been said by the Gallant Admiral who spoke
missions it was required that there should be the last, and he was sure that there could not be ftmnd
signature of " three or more" of the Lords. But that a man more fit for the duties of a Lord of the Ad-
objection could easily be removed by an Address to miralty than that gallant Officer and his friends, Sir
the Prince Regent, praying to alter that formula,. by Hotham, and Sir B. Martin.,—(hear, hear.)-4But
requiring the signature of only " two or more.". An- be would ask the Honourable Member if he could
other objection was, that unless the present Memhers say that the Noble Lord (en whose retirement the
were continued, it would be impossible to have Boards late vacancy among the Lay Lords had been filled
at the Out-ports. But he contended, that during up) had signed any paper during the whole time he
peace, such Boards were not necessary. If they were, held the office, except the receipts for his salary ?
it was ridiculous to suppose that I,Ay Lords,: who (icar,. hear.)—He knew that there was almost more
knew nothing of naval affairs---who {lid not know a businfts• to transact than the Sea Lords could go
74 from—he was going to say, from a mail coach, through ; but lie contended that they derived no
(iaug.lter) —were nt to conduct the business of such assistance from the Lay Lords. The late Lord Hood
Boards. In the present state of the service. he thought had told him that the pressure of business was so
4 quite sufficient to have three Bra Lords: and one that ballad been for six weeks at a time con-
Lay Lord of the Admiralty. On the grounds which ned to the Admiralty without being able to stir out..
he had, stated. ;nd sousidOng.the burdened state of And he Anew that the Gallant Admiral, and the
the country, and that the House was pledged to cc°, other sea Lords, were now overwhelmed with busi-
nomy, he moved the following Resolution : tress, while the Lay Lords were riding about and
" That an humble Address be presented to his Royal High. enjoying themselves in idleness.—(Laughter.)-11e
ness the Prince Regent, to represent to his Royal Highness that wishai to vv the mode of transacting business in the
his 31ajesty's faithtul Commons, being desirous that all such
Admiralty restored to what it had formerly been.
measnres of economy should be adopted as were consistent with Sir GEORGE COCKBURN, in reply to the ques-
the security of the country, humbly prayed his Royal Highness
to give directions to reduce the Lords of the Admiralty to such tion of his Gallant Friend, said, that the Noble Lord
a number .1; the e.,igt 'icy of the country required:" who lately retired had signed•many other papers, be-
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN begged the indal- sides the receipts for his salary, and had taken his
gence of the House, as he rose to answer the personal regular turn of business—(hear, hear.)
attack of the lion. Baronet who had just spoken. Mr. CALCRAFT rose amid loud calls for the
Sir 31. W. ItIDLEY rose to order. He disavowed question, and begged leave to make a few observe-
any intention of attacking the Gallant Admiral per- tinns to the House, on what had fallen from the Gal-
sonallv. hurt Admiral on the other side (Sir G. Cockburn), as
Sir GEORGE COCKBUII.NE apologised. He cer- he saw that Ministers pressed for a division on the
tainly thought that the Honourable Baronet did strength of his statement. The Gallant Admiral, in his
Jude to hint personally in what he had said relative eagerness to defend the present constitution of tha
to the appointment of the Chaplain at Portsmouth ; Board, had carried his argument too far: if what
and thinking so, he was desirous of answering it. he said about the number of Officers appointed to
And he wished, with the permission of the House, receive the communications of the Navy in time of
to be allowed to-reply to what he conceived to be an war were correct, it proved that there sr re then too
attack—(lle.k hear)...-Whenever his conduct was many Lords of the Admiralty. He had stated that
questioned, whether in that House or out of that 12 Admirals stood between the Board and the Navy,
House, all that he wopld wish for sees an opportu- but that now 8,000 persons corresponded directly
nity to defend himself—(Hear, hear).—The appoint- ith the Board. Tins argument did not appear to
meat which had been mentioned was made in the re- him (Mr. Calcraft) of much weight, as he could not
gular course of promotion, and not for any clot- think that the business of a Board could increase by
tmneering purpose, as had been asserted. At the diminishing the number and services of those whom
three great stations, POrtsmouth, Plymouth, and it superintended—(Hear). The true defence then
Chatham, it had been long since arranged that if any would be found to be as formerly stated, that the
'vacancy occurred in the office of Chaplain, it should Navy Board was a school for young Statesmen. If
be filled up from those employed in the service in the Gentlemen of the oppoSite side thought so now,
, their regular turn. When this vacancy occurred, a let them fairly come forward and support this posi-
letter was written to the Board to know who was don, and not take up the new ground of business
first on the list ? An answer was sent that Mr. Cuth- which they formerly deserted—(Hear), If they
bert was the first; and he was accordingly appointed were to deal with the question in th:s way, heahould
pursuant to the regulation, Now he would put it to know haw to opposo them ; lie would say that he
the House to say, whether the circumstance of that thought there was sufficient patronage already io the
Gentleman's being an inhabitant of Portsmouth, or hands of the Ministers of the Crown, and sufficient
connected with that place, should deprive him of an opportunities of education for such young Statesmen ;
appointment which fell to him in the usual course of nay, he would even go the length of saying, that that
the service ?--(Hear, hear)—Was he to be deprived patronage was too great, the opportunities too many.
of it because he (Sir G. Cockburn) happened to be With the places at present in their gift, there was no
Member for that place—an hoe6ur of which he was danger that the influence of the Crown could be re-
proud—(Hear, hear).—As to the main question, the doced too low ; while it was grating to the feelings
grounds on which the Honourable Baronet had called of the i,eople to see their opinions neglected and their
upon the House to agree to this reduction were mis- interests overlooked by the persevering encourage-
stated, if not misrepresented, so far as related to the Trent of unnecessary expenditure,—(lfear). The
extent of the duties. The number of ships now in saving here would be but small; but it was the pi in-
commission was correctly stated to be 12,4 These ciple, and not the sum, that was to be contended for.
were not, as during the war, confined to ten or twelve (Hear.) If the principles of economy had
. any info-
regular stations, each of which was under the im- ence over the minds of Members, they would evince
mediate command of one Admiral, who alone di- them by cutting off unnecessary expenses, however
rectly corresponded with the Admiralty. They were small ; but if shey were to neglect them, they wouldi
now scattered over the whole face of the globe, and no doubt vote in that great majority expected bythe
the commander of almost every individual ship gallant Admiral. The gallant Admiral, by detailing
bad now to correspond directly with the Admiralty. the overwhelming business of his office, had hoped to
There was another cir umstance which much in- irifleenee the )Muse; aad.one was almost led to pity
creased the businsss of the'Adiniralty at this time.— the Lay Lords for the severe toils to which, accord-
curing the peace, wheat so many of were out of big to hitryhey were subjected—(4 friagh). Mem-
euip.eyment there were continual applications and hers might, however, console themselves, that the
memorials coming from them, stating their claims !reek!)_ of those Lay-Lords .aeould no; be injured by
to be employed. All these
.1 •
were acldroyssed ao the their employment. llnste4ctofirivin only half an
Admiralty Wert to be Ggiiiidged and amity(' 1—.4 hell f0!.4 walk,, like ilte gaitelar• dittOiil, once in

$ •-•

Nfl days, they had not Only an hoer to Walk, lint e.A
Isour to ride in the Parks every day. He would not
' object to the plea of these places being nurseries
for young Statesmen, if he saw that after the com-
pletion of their education these young Statestwen
were of any use to the public.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble Marquis who was now to be replac'ed by
the Honourable Baronet, had been trained up in
office, and taught to sign documents as well as could
be expected ; but what had happened ? Just as he
was becoming of any use, he had been turned edrift,
and a new scholar introduced, who knew nothing at
all of business, and who, after pasting through the
same ordeal, might be turned out in the same ms.:-
per—(A laugh.)—Really, it was almost impossible
to argue upon this subject: the question, as far as
reasonini was concerned, had been already dis-
posed of----(HeAr, on the side of the l'•;irlisterS, re-
echoed by the Opposition )—lie said already dis-
posed of, because it could never be behoved for 4
moment, that there was the same extent of business
in superietending a navy of 120,000 men, and /000
ships in foil active service, and during a time o! ware
as in directing a fleet of scarcely more than 100 ships,
of 20,000 men, and in a period of profound peace
—(Loud cheering from the Opposition.;—lle au-
gured well of the success of this motion, and hoped
that the House, which was so strongly pledged to
economy, would on the present occasion give the
country something more than mouth-services (Hear).
At the end of this speech there was again a cry of
u Question 1' from the Ministerial side of the House.
Mr. GRAHAM (Member for Hull) said, that
anxious as he was to support every measure of ccc-
nomy, and convinced, as he was, that reirenchment
was absolutely necessary in the present distressed
state of the country, he would not seek for that tz-
trenchment by any improper diminution of the ie
fluence of the Crown ; but he was firmle of opin:en,
that the influence of the Crown was overgrown, and
ought to be diminished—(Hear, letar.)—He wished
to give no handle to popular clamour; but whee he
considered the extent and the patronage of the Army,
when lie considered the influence arising freer the
collection of the Revenue, he thought • that every
Motion like the present, that had for its cleect
to reduce within proper limits the influence et- t.:..e
Government, ought to be adopted—(Hear, hear,'.—
He could not see how, for the purposes of pehlie
business, as great a Navy Board should he required
in time of profound peace as when we stood against
the worl&-(Hear, hear.) Among the duties niche
Lay Lords lie saw nothing but the signature of their
names to official documents. Accordingly, no qua.
lineation seemed to be required of those who °me
pied those places. When a vacancy occurred, AP.
nisters hi:led it up; when they
.could not find any of
the ornamental pate of their friends, they recruited
in Scotland for Members--(Rear, hear.) This clues?
tion oppeared to him very important, as regarded the
principle of economy. The burdens of the peeple
were eo great, that if even one Member of the Board
could e spared, the place ought to be abolished.—
He cot ld not conceive how any honourable mar,
who v how useless he must be in such an ofii.-P,
could/bring hiniscit; from mercenary motives; to be.
nefit himself at the expense of the Public—(Jkey.)
Ministers might, and lie had no doubt would, on
this question, have a neejority ; but this majority would
only convince him of the expediency at aboliShit g
places like the present, by which ft et as comment:lee:
When such places epmmAn.ied a majority in favour
of Ministers, it was evident that the majority of the
country was against them—(Hear,hear),lle vtished
rather to see an Administration subject to publicopi.
pion, relying for their measures on public approhd-
ition, than placed by an iufiuence like the present, be-
yond public opinion, and defying the Oieapprobetiee
of the country—(Hear)e.--Beceuse the pre*nt mot:oa
would tend to reduce their power, he would vote in
support of the Reso/titien of the Honourable Baronet,
which had his hearty concurrence.—Cparing t:..s
'speech the Ministerial side erii-ced great impatience::
Mr. COMYN, although pertectly independeet, he
said, in his conduct, yet thought it his duty, on the
present occasion, to support the Servants of the
Crown. They pui cued the plans of those illdstriQus
predecessors in office who had formed such arrange.
ments es had mainly. .contributed to the glory of our
arms both by sea and land. It was therefore incurs's.
bent upon him to oppose the motion. .
Lend J, RUSSELL ridiculo l the application of
the science of Astronomy LO the junior Lord, of the
Admiralt). Wthout meal big any ocence, he would
venture to aff.rm, that the Noble Lord who had got,
out of oftce posseeed as profound a knowledge of
Astronomy as the Honourable Baronet who had suc-
ceeded him !—(Hear. ticsoe,;But, said some Gen-
tlemen, it was necessary that those junior Lords
should, besides a perfect knowledge of Astronomy,
also be good Civilians—should be distinguished for
their learning so far as regarded the law of nations
—should, in fact, have Putrendorff and Groups Ly
heard—(feer, and lalwhier.)—With such necee-
sary qualiflcatkas, he believed, there would be found
a considerable deficiency in the persons alluded to.
But, to prove the efficiency and Wisdom of the 1/,‘Acd,
the Honourable Baronet t Sir George Cockburn) stat-
ed, that they sent to the Out-ports men who were
totally ignorant of their avocation—because. tiPir
-reports from any of the seaport towns, whither they
bad been deputised on a survey, were generally
found such a mass of ignorance or nonsense, as to
• require the partieular amendments of those who re-
mained in town at the Board !..-(Hear, bear, hear,)--.
This reminded him of a story once mentioned by an
eminent Statesman (Mr. Foe) who, in charactetising
an eccentric person, ludicrously observed, that he
never spoke sp well on a subject as when he knew
nothing about it ! So that the junior Lords sent to
the outports might hue said never to snake sss good a
survey as when they knew nothing of the subject !
(Hear, hear, and loud laughter.) ' former:y, wLen a
question arose, in which the vital principles of the
Ministers were not endangered, they would readily
grant, and even propose a ('arnmitree.—(llear.)
Hence a Committee on the affairs of the Bank—
hence a Committee on the Criminal Laws—and hence
various other Committees. But attempt to dnniiiisb
or-abolish a single placeattettipt to act upon 414
of retrenchment by the reduction of one of their
own corps, and then the whole party become inttpts7
diately alarmed, and use
„their utmost !aurae tii
resist everyltiquit7.,Wear, hear).—lt is eass:ly ac.
counting fot such desperate expedients ;The ex,--
of Administration • depends upon the system

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