Star.
London, England, 1818-02-28 00:00:00

INDEMNITY DILL

The Order for summoning their Lordships on the
subject of this Bill being read,
The Duke of MONTROSE rose, in pursuance of
his notice and observed, that it appeared to him to
be proper to offer a few observations to their Lord-
ships respecting the measure he was about to recom-
mend to their Lordships adoption. As to the occa-
sion for its being brought forward, he would trouble
their Lordships to recollect in what situation the
country stood at the commencement of the last Ses-
sion of Parliament, and also its situation for some
time preceding that period. A great deal of what
he was about to refer to were well known and re-
corded facts. Their Lordships must remember the
state in which the counties of Nottingham and Lei-
cester had long been. Houses were destroyed, frames
broken, and murders frequently committed. These
excesses were dangerous and alarming in the ex-
treme. It appeared farther, that these crimes and
excesses were, according to the dying confessions of
seve,al of the malefactors, the result of a deliberately
organized system ; that prices or rewards were
granted for the commission of vat ious descriptions of
crime ; a certain price had been set on the life of an
ordinary individual ; so much also for the destruction
of a horse, and another fixed sum for the destruction
of a frame. Not content with these, they went higher,
and set a proportionate price upon the murder of a
Judge, or for lying in wait to fire upon one. From
these partial outrages, a more iceneral and extensive
system sprung up, and their designs were communi-
cated to each other, no longer by means of written
correspondence, but by word of mouth and other
means, which could only be known to themselves.
Meetings were then called in various parts of the
country ; treasonable doctrines were promulgated,
and acts of traitorous outrage resolved upon. Trade,
'commerce, and manufactures of most of those dis-
tricts were nearly annihilated, and multitudes de-
prived of support, which tended to render them the
fitter objects for designing traitors to work upon.
This dangerous spirit of action was ere long com-
municated to the metropolis, and they all well knew
how his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, in the
exercise of his most important function, was insulted,
and even his person violently attacked. Their Lord-
ships thought proper to institute an inquiry into those
circumstances and events, and the result was, that a
temporary Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act was'
deemed necessary, so far as related to the commis-
sion of, or to the suspicion of High Treason. This
was a most wise and salutary measure ; it operated
chiefly in the way of prevention, and was well calcu-
lated for the protection of those persons who were
most likely to become the deluded victims of the cri-
minal leaders in schemes of traitorous insurrection.
The conduct of the Executive Government through-
out, and those who acted under it, was declared by
their Lordships' Committee to have been called for,
and amply justified by the circumstances that occur-
red; and they in their turn were fully entitled to the
protecting measure now called for ; and without a
legislative interposition of the kind it could not ra-
tionally be expected that such dangers in future could
be put down (as in the case before them) by measures
merely cautionary and preventive. From his view
of the whole case he felt perfectly satisfied the mea-
sure now proposed was not only justifiable but neces-
sary, and should detain the House no longer, but
move that the Indemnity Bill be now read the second
time.—On the question,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, he rose not
so much for the purpose of opposing the motion of
the Noble Duke, as to take some view of the nature
and very questionable extent of the Bill in question,
and with reference to its legal consequences, which
went to affect not only the personal tights, but the
properties of British subjects. It was with no small
surprise he heard the measure characterised as a ne-
cessary Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act last
year. Such a proposition, he believed, was not
maintainable.

A short explanation took place between his Grace
of MONTROSI and the Noble Marquis, principally
with reference to the real import of the former Peer's
expression " corollary," as used by him, and which
he explained to Fall short of that absolute and decisive
construction which the latter seemed to put upon it.
The Marquis ofILANSDOWNE proceeded.--He
would not controvert the statements sanctioned by
the Committees, that the risings, such as they were
in the Midland Counties, and the West of Scotland,
and in the Metropolis, had for their object the over-
turning by violence the laws and constitution of the
country t but contend, that the fair question was,
whether those were of that nature and extent as to
render such an unconstitutional measure necessary?
—ln London they only arrested under the Act two
persons, both Spencean philosophers ; and as to the
character of the insurrection in the country parts, the
leaders were never able to bring more than from 50
to 100 persons to act in any one point, though their
ascribed range was through a population of 800,000
persons. From his view of all the circumstances, he
thought it would have been more wise if Parliament
had consigned the detention of those supposed
_ leaders
to other receptacles than those of his Majesty's
pti-
sons, in places where Dr. Monroe would feel no ne-
cessity of applying for a Bill of Indemnity for what
Ike had done. Much stress was laid on the expecto-
tips entertained in the prtivinto of co-operation from

London ; but he belelieved that much oft
tition was entertained from the assurances
those persons by the Delegate from London
who, there was great reason to suppose, 7
exceeded the instructions given to him. w
to Derbyshire, what occurred in that qua/
pally shewed the strength of the offenders
that it was found easier to subdue than
them ; and it tended additionally to sheen
necessity existed for the suspension of tha:
wark of personal liberty ; but that ;1
course of law would be amply sufficien,
storation of the public peace. Directing
northwards, it would merely appear as
wing of the insurgent force had taken to
mission of burg Lanes ; and with respect to
bourhood of Huddersfield, the men broul
would have been convicted, were it not t
varication of an old woman, the princ:?:
And with relation to Scotland, the facts s]
the operation of the ordinary course c.
amply sufficient to put down what had oe
Glancing more in detail at a great part
cumstances which had taken place, the N
quis expressed his conviction that all that
was not sufficient to call for such an
the Constitution, and the setting aside th,
established Law of the Country—that
strength, which the wisdom and virtue (
cestors gad erected for the security of the
Constitution of England, and which he
think the measure now under considerati
form a more serious inroad upon, as being
permanent character and effect. In yarn
Suspensions of the Habeas Corpus Act, tl
instance (except that of 1801) ti such
being carried to the extent of that rex 7
The operations and effect of the mens..,re
Marquis argued, would be of a m,-
well as of a most unoonstitution
spect to numerous individuals, wl
think called for serious inquiry, al
should have some channel left ope
ferring or attempting to substanth
—the most eligible mode of &Cu
more than once adopted, especial]
ham and Mary, he thought wou,
Petitions to a Select Committee.
of argument farther, he declare,
the characters, descriptions, or even so,
lessness of many individuals, should no
against their so doing, and advised the
to pause ere they went to the full extent
the measure as now proposed, without
gully into all the merits of the case whic
to it ; and to afford a regular opperre:
doing, he would move as an Amendmo
stead- of “ now," the Bill be read a seem,
day fortnight.

,
difere!

The Eail of LIVERPOOL observed, th
cipal stress of the Noble Marquis's object
lying against certain provisions of the Bi;
cussion was applicable to the Committee.
present stage, in which the principle of tl
merely, was to be discussed. In the ne
would be open to any Noble Lord to nti
alteration he might deem proper. The
the principle was now only before then,
a view of the general nature of the pr y°,
whether a Bill of Indemnity did not pro,
out of the circumstances et the case,tla
of the last Sessior, and of the Repert no.
table? His Noble Friend was greaey
supposed to have said, that a Bill of this
a corollary, or a consequence of a Bill of
but he regarded the measure as appe.r
same description as corollary ; and winch
would appear from a fair and impartial
whole case. At the time the situation of .
try was known, and avowedly one of erner
ger, Parliament, taking the circumstances
sideration, found it necessary to vest in
tive Government a power of taking up am
persons, without bringing them to trial, on
of treasonable practices. Again, after sor
Parliament inquired ; and the result was,
that the powers so g;ven were necessary
ther continued. On the first day of the
his Majesty's Government thinking
the country to be no longer such as to
Suspension, they proposed its immediate
following up that measure, they did not
present in the way of corollary ; but they
ous that farther inquiry should be mach
conduct of Government under the Susp
.a Secret Committee was appointed to imp
ingly. On the result of such inquiry, it
the House to exercise its discretion;
avowed belief cf the Committee, that tin
vested were not abused by his Majesty
ment ; but. that, on the contrary, they
justified by the circumstances, and on d
the present measure was proposed. Wu'
the question, whether the extent of the
sufficient to call for the extraordinary pow
the sense of Parliament generally had de(
affirmative. The question was not to be
to the individual opinion of any Noble L.
thing that had occurred confirmed the
it. Much of the occurrences on which tl
measures were founded, took place.
while the Noble Marquis was absent irc
try ; but he believed no one would say
derable degree of danger did not exist
With respect to the state of the Metri
may have been only two persons take
particular authority ; but it was well
several were brought to trial for their cl
duct ; and he undertook to say, that fro
meet the Suspension Act passed, it had I
preventive operation of disheartening nu
of paralysing their efforts in their train);
The effect of the measure was net to be,
the number of its victims, but from its ei
more humane way of deterring and prey
ground upon which they stood in propoi
sent Act, was not only the nil just;ficat
conduct and of Parliament, but prosper
with reference to its effect wit'a respect ti
sible instances of the sar.:e kind. He
tended that in all cases of traitorous 0
Suspension of the Habeas C'orFus Act rya
the extent and nature of the case was
considered. In the case of Colonel D
rarely exceeded in atrocity and nialignw
deemed necessary to suspend the Act

s

...11
ibern

, th
bee

much of this an Mil
. diferet
DtilssuhpitErecrc'seullientrar Ir_Vgesaibilialgszdl•:4..:2.l-: .s
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offenders r,,r'''
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n of era: rt of the
that :1-. .
princi. e e..z6 objects i
, The
might
:lel'ePeentiaPecttfkaa"benrcrautsast.Dt°:::!.::-..4.1::;.1 duals, Y
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ence of
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i •_,
• t coati
which
coune ci :ir iament.
sat had (ace . these
eat part of eat' se of la
:e, the Yef..,a, suppms
all that had e; . cv. A
Rich ar.ir.ta:z m ear
aside •I:e
..
.werful
ry—that tr., lament
d virtue of tl.e.: vidual,
ty of the ir...-4,. - had h
hick he kr-.,e:red OCCUrre
onsiderat.on ,• knew :
, as bei::g of a . • ; whc
In rannsu to ches, I.
is Act, there ins pm iod
of such a it . :on was
it nc-x 7:epwo laws, u
me-is...•re ~:e N. . land, v
I mos: ir...r.:i. ns, .e suspe
nal r.atare, zr.:. .ed to t/
D/LiiPraeliniatn:
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icated
o
. ned to
the d
. on in
ed Li
g) whit
13,irsuraz t:-:,s , Or 1
ed his 0p.„',.:, . streo
the si
• ce at
ised thvir L^r.i,• h those
e who 1
ivithout tur...r • took 1
ase which pre is as to
opportunity fe ided not
mendment, t::::. .licy, xi
I a second tizt . ustice at
rity of
erred, that th..ip+ country
,'s ob.:lee:lora c 1...-. en-croon
f the Bill, .l. - • .-1 to the
,mmittee. r.:: I. est exan
iple of the rim:. -.5 ha 4 c
i the next star. ay fully
n:1 to raggest ~.. -ices of t
m. The anemia_ ged, w.
e they. whii-.11...... . ent.
he pmpo%itio....:r ;city's ..
not. properly 7, ,Id be
•ase, tl".e 7tocee . . Memb
epcn now t: ; isioa w,
;_rrath- mist•-•r- ..: , tinnece
11 of this nat.::: eves c
a Bill of Inder.,:: ces sr(
as appearing ci that
4 which be tone :ng the
npartial view Ci • , was e:
nation of the ~ •ns se
ne of ermine - ted.
umstances into , es, but
D vest in the Elm .n whit
ng np and d ird Li
0 trial, on stop :On. HI
after some ittral . the pi
stilt seas, a circ long
iecessary to .2:a• y kiwi
r of the prewx: S., . d E
blinking the !tin . - CI
has to require ~i 61 5
mediate repel li ouldl
did not proposo tout,
but they WZ:t rk WaS :
be made as to 3 assed
he Suspensive. efeci
d to inquire actor. deci
laity, it wa: kit! many
retion i and cr.: : •ld sal
, that the porn .Id be
Nlajesty's ti,... r, hen
,
ry, they were 1.-.
these
aid on thit gr: cruel
xi. Wall rorext ' • .ght t
,of the J:;;;:r . • na
nary power grat -,. . )—M
had dechie.l. in 4 villai
not to be ceci.it‘i d up
Noble Lord. Er . in U
ned the metes''' .ch the
which the sy,tc. libertl
>x..^ '' ?
place. he . A.
. , p
ratter
•ly in
' on h
ready
ere u
i°:l3 teissdne :Ili: takeniei sat
e t rsltl ;rem
at
h a
tkPti'LL ttr:.r.l..L:::::e:} 67. " -7 . g
r their crirnini or hum;
that from i.:1.7-(- must
,it had the ii-ougir .
Wed
ening numb'131
eir traitorous,l-6' nal, u
c
nto be iu1,,,.e.!:31 ' d chi
run its elects mu" • tha
and prevening. 1$ ants ,
a prorsin; th.er r :nn,
:aell:Piolltec:;:ssiPeCCicat:inrinefispUtev:Uler:trie.c°,po:Pie. i .'•.e..tbrrihb:eititMetill
s Act was neress.:l; ; er.i
se was olic.o s r'' • to
donel Dcspar,'• t be
nalignity, u r:.-J:.- Ilenta
bie Act; L•zcallst i e gee,

not extended nor ramified ' the Committee had to ptanoance on the exercise of
an ianna
or into other places.—ln a most dangerous authority, upon the nature e the
differn: conspiracies,teclcase
tance it was extended through various arrests of a number of persons, many of whom were
06,2:1t 1115
and for all the characters of a ' discharged without trial, and manly of whom, he
• c.i,e country,
too inthe most pops- would fearlessly repeat, were arrested on the testi-
:al°. im•arrection, prevailing
~-:, of the country, and with respect to these mony of informers, and by the artifices of miscreants,
must'ar-svain contend the measure produced the most though he was ready to say the Noble Viscount could
• effects in preventing the farther delusion not have known of such machinations, or he would
''forttinato. numbers, whom the temporary di? not have countenanced their authors. In this Com-
'of the tines might have rendered the more fa- mittee, in plain fact, the Government sat in judg.
° '
biees for those traitorous agitators to practice ment upon its own acts ; and was it likely the court-
The verdicts of Juries in many cases, though try would be satisfied with any recommendation of
, night not have attached upon the accused in- an Act of Indemnity emanating from such a source?
k,d„,is, yet, combined with what elicited upon If ever it fell to his lot to be put on hit trial, all he
':' roved th actual existence of dangerous con- should say was, that he hoped he would see on his
'7 ;i. What had actually appeared proved the jury as many friends as the Noble Viscount had on
:**l,., a' an extensive and regularly organized his Committee. Under such circumstances, an Act
-,;',„ ~ and for objects upon which no rational of Indemnity would do nothing, unless it was sane-
cold be entertained. The whole formed a tiened on clear grounds. What would be said of the
‘,..:.c1.,, in the deliberate and wire decision of proceeding if the Jury at Derby consisted of the as-
rar:ilment called for the vesting of Government sociates or the parties on trial ?—( Hear, hear, hear)
• , ~6 extraordinary powers; as the ordinary —would this be called a fair tribunal?—if it would
~ of;.:%:s were held by it to be inadequate to not, on what pripciple could this Committee be so
[,, ~,ression of so dangerous and extensive a con- described, composed as it had been ? He spoke in
~..: A vicw of the actual slate of the Metropo- the language and spirit of the British law. Last
F:4: e:-1v in November, until nearly July, was year hetothe Ministers that if they let the law take
i. ‘„.n - ,(. al ,orroboration of the conclusion which its course, the accused would not have the
1:•!,,:eleot .:ad formed. With respect to a certain benefit any indiscriminate popularity on their
rdiwi:ll, ea whose conduct much stress at different trial, but that there would be rather a disposition to
im, had been laid, particularly with references to favour Ministers, if the people saw them inclined to
vcc,-.-:.7tences in Yorkshire, he would observe, that pursue an open and candid course. If they could
~ beir nothing of that person until the month of have established the existence of these insurrectionary
-'ocreas the conspiracy, in all its parts and meetings, aid the dangers to be apprehended from
.:, had existed for weeks, nay months, before them, then the question and Petitions of Reformers
;mind ; and with relation to Scotland, the ob- must have been for the time set at rest, to await
xe was easily refuted—the ordinary operation of calmer and more tranquil moments, and a spirited
1.w,, w:lich were very different from those of and vigilant Magistracy would have preserved the
:land. were there found sufficient for the purpose public peace. The Noble Earl had alluded to the
lie suspension was therefore unnecessary.to be ex- trials at the Old Bailey in 1793, and said that then
led to that part of the island. As to the idea that indeed there was no open spirit of insurrection, but
persons of property or considerable influence were an infected and poisoned state of society—so much
iplica:ed in these transactions, but that they were the worse, for then Government were exposed to the
alined to individuals of no property, he believed odium of arresting individuals at random, instead of,
hen the dreadful transactions which took place in as it appeared (if their information was correct) lately
ondon in the year 17S0 (and of which a Noble and having had the means of putting their hands on the
earned Lord opposite had reason to know some- chief and most active leaders. If the Government
hi7g) which all proceeded from persons of no pro- had proceeded with a vigorous administration of the
eery, or a low description, were recollected, not existing law, though some might have been acquit-
itch strez could be laid upon that argument. They ted, yet the people would have at least given them
,;.1 the sad experience also of what occurred in credit for the sincerity of their alarm. The trials
Tine at the early periods of the Revolution, in might indeed have found some persons to abuse them,
rich those who hadnothing were embarked against as -Mr. Windham had done after the former Old
1,,,-ae who had every thing ; and in some degree of Bailey trials, when he called the accused i, acquitted
rill; took place in Ireland ; to decide their judg- felons," though the proceedings of that day were al-
penis as to such an objection, and they had wisely ways most fairly aid candidly spoken of by the No-
' ed not to let it militate against the adoption of ble Lord on the Woolsac k, who then conducted
policy, which was no less guided by the principles the prosecutions. Such things might have happened,
justice and hemanity than it was directed to the but indiscriminate enthusiasm would not have taken
my of the Laws, Constitution, and property of the place of sober and rational law—(Hear, hear).—
cmary. On these great and saving principles, On the subject of the data on which the House was
extraordinary powers were entrusted by Parlia- now called upon to proceed, all he would say was
-..: to the Executive Government, which upon the this, that if they had no right to examine the evidence
El
!I examination had decided that the. Govern- on which Ministers rested their defence, they had

Ipri II

r.: had exercised with justice, moderation, and in
sv lif.ir called for tud justified by all the circum-
aces of the case. The Committee, it was falsely
kged, was composed solely of the friends of Go-
=Nit. The fact was notoriously otherwise. His
i;esty's Ministers were anxious that their conduct
wild be fully inquired into by individual Peers,
!Members of both parties—and their deliberate
isinn was what he had stated. No apprehension
unnecvsarily taken place—they were all on the
eves cf different insurrections, and the conse-
',lost salutary. All they asked for now
is, that c.o. a fair view of the whole case, (not
sing the I:.caFure upon any particular precedent),
a was estanded, in the way of protection, to the
tuts so acting, and as circumstances avowedly
argued. It was not individually wanted for them-
ins, but on these obvious grounds and principles
?on which measures of the kind proceeded.
Lord LANSDOWNE said a few words in expla-
ttion. He wished for adjournment, on the ground
ha the provisions of the Bill of Indemnity had not
kit long enough before the House to be suifici-
ilwn.
frd kr'oERSKINE agreed, that whether the Act of
Corpus had been suspended on just grounds
loose grounds, or on State necessity, or without
could have no manner of application in the pre-
. t consideration. The question of the Noble Mar-
Ills was not whether the Bill of Indemnity should
passed or tot, but whether it should be carried
o effect now, or considered a fortnight hence. If
be decided that the question was to be narrowed in
manner contended for by the Noble Earl, he
ould say, with due respect, that such a decision
aid be most preposterous as well as dangerous—
Sr, hear most dangerous indeed it would be to
.1 these who had been ruined in health and fortune
a creel and unjust imprisonment, that they had
W-ight to apply for redress to that Government in
Rise name such injuries had been inflicted—(hears
ktr!—Was any man who had so suffered through
be villainy of a malicious informer, who had im-
Psei upon the Execative Government, to be shut
t in this summary manner from the protection
U:ch the laws from time immemorial shed round
is liberty, and told he had no remedy for his inju-
Is? Against such a doctrine he would enter his
,kran protest—;hear, hear)--With respect to the
'cater of the Noble Viscount (Sidmouth), who was
!nvc!ved in these transactions, and who was
h:s trial, he should only say, that he would
~) come forward as a witness, and bear his
.nony to the Noble Viscount's character
-2:tinny and kindness. But though he said this,
te nut rake leave to add, that were the Noble Vis-
Ft".'l!h3ltrother—the twin companion of his birth—
fie W011.,1
refrain from giving him a verdict of ao-
Fadl.unsi! he heard the evidence on which he must
!z:: this verdict.. The charge against Government
'tz!, that they had listened to the evidence of rnis-
Eltlxi, of hired spies, against persons who alleged
/;'7..iaTt.)...ence, and loudly demanded a trial (hear).
Ids Lis: House see what was asked of their Lordships,
ta by %%horn that was asked. When the late Secret
s'arnittee s4t to consider of the matters referred to
6:
tiluagh he thought that Committee might
been better arranged than by ballot, yet their
r7ludera:ion was a very simple one, and perhaps re-
!'!,l to hive been consigned to other hands. It
Zrit be said, indeed, that it was composed of Par-
',,tentary Peers, who are more attended to, and
b eater `'cunt in the Houle than others ; yet

ZIC2S rcre

!!'t

still less a right to decide upon what they did not
hear.--(Hear, hear.)—The Report of the Committee I
contained no new information (he spoke from news-
paper
information, not having an opportunity of
coming down to read the Report.) It was stated as
the opinion of this Committee, that they had " the
satisfaction of delivering it as their decided opinion, I
that not only in the country in general, but in those i
districts where the designs of the disaffected were
most unremittingly pursued, the great body of the I
people have remained untainted even during the pe-
riods of the greatest internal difficulty and distress." I
Was this a proof that the Government were justified
in- resorting to extreme measures against a whole po-
pulation, for the acts of a few ? The country did not
require this testimony to its character. At the period
of the melancholy and lamented death of the Princess
Charlotte, were not the whole population of the coun-
try pressing forward to manifest their grief and sym •
pathy, as if the child of one parent, shedding teats
of pity and distress for the loss of a beloved object ?
This shewed the loyalty and affection of the people,
and rejected the calumnies that had been so unspa-
ringly heaped upon them. ( Hear.) The great in-
surrectionary movement that had been dwelt upon,
was put down by the interference of an active Magis-
trate, aided by a Captain of Dragoous and eighteen
soldiers 1--(lsear, fir.)—But at the time when this
took place, the Act to prevent tumultuarT and sedi-
tious meetings was in full force, and Magistrates had
the power of suppressing them. If Ministers, as they
said, had taken up no person but on information upon
oath, they were fully armed for any emergency, for
the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act did not
give them greater latitude as to the rounds of ar-
rest than they previously had. The circumstance of
unnecessarily departing from the due course of law,
had created a greater unpopularity for the regular
authorities of the land than they had encountered at
any former period. It had been asked, whether, with
a knowledge of the Noble Viscount at the head of
the Home Department, they had any right to suppose
that the powers intrusted to Ministers had been abu-
sed ? To this he would only reply, that that abuse
was charged against him, and he had a right to meet
it by an open defence. This indeed would be re-
deeming his responsibility. If their Lordships passed
this Bill of Indemnity, without adjourning to hear
all the evidence which the case required, they would
lzeitiir:wn this maxim, and he spoke it boldly—that
er the oppression or injustice be committed by
the best or the worst of men, by Government or by
informers, still the utmost confidence must be reposed
in the Government who countenanced such proceed-
ings. There was greater danger to the Constitution
from the mode of inquiry adopted by Ministers on
this occasion, than from any thing they could appre-
hend from the evils of which they complained. The
people had shevrn no irreverence to that House ; on
the contrary, they looked upon it with proper respect.
Would it therefore repay this consideration by allow-
ing itself the extreme Court of Appeal to grant a
Bill of Indemnity to men who declared their inno-
cence, but who may be guilty ?—(hear.)—The Bill
professed to indemnify Ministers, Magistrates, and
others—against whom ? Against those who were un-
justly imprisoned ; who were imprisoned without in-
formation or suspicion to justify their imprisonment.
He should most deeply lament it, if their Lord:hips
should not accede to the motion of his Noble Friend,
to take all the Petitions before this and the other
House of Parliament—(it was not regular to refer to
the other House, but the Petitions before it %-ti Ald be

presented to their Lordships)—he should deeply 1 .a.•
ment it, if their Lordships should not examine all
those Petitions before they passed a Bill of Indem-
nity. If they once passed the Indemnity Bill, those
Petitions could not be examined or taken into consi-
deration. What then, he would ask, were the people
of England to think of their Lordships, if they passed
a Bill of Indemnity against charges, the extent,
proof, enormity, and wantonness of which they refu-
sed to inquire into ?—(hear.)—Let them beware of
venturing beyound the endurance of a free people.—
A free people must he governed on free principles.
He would, therefore, support an adjournment of the
subject—he would do all in his power to procrasti-
nate, to retard, and, if possible, to prevent a measure
which, in his conscience, he believed to militate
against every principle of freedom and justice. (hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that when
the question for the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act was debated, it was hardly possible to suppose
that there would not be a Bill of Indemnity. It
was about a century and a half ago, in the reign of
Charles 11. that our ancient rights and liberties were
secured by this Act ; and he would say, that the his-
tory of the country, since the Act of Charles H. had
proved, that in order to secure our liberties, it was
necessary that that very Act should be occasionally
suspended: He knew that the great body of the
people were sound ; but would the Noble Lord say
that the people were not sound in the time of King
William? and yet the Act was suspended three times
in that reign. If the Noble Lord would take the
trouble to look at the Act of Indemnity of that reign,
he Would find they contained the same words.—
These Acts admitted that there had been a violation
of the law in suspending the Habeas Corpus Act,
but they justified it on the exigencies of the junc-
tures ; and though individuals might complain of
lhardships, which those exigencies rendered unavoid-
able, yet good subjects were not to be put to the
trouble and expenses of law suits, who had only done
their duty to their country. Those rights and liber-
ties were secured by that Act of Parliament. Simi-
lar circumstances occurred in the years 1715 and
1745, and in the whole history of the country there
were established proofs, that where the public safety
and necessity required it, Bills of Indemnity might
be granted ; for " Sales populi supremo lex." Nothing
had occurred that would not justify it in this in-
stance. The Suspension Act that expired in 179 d
was not followed by a Bill of Indemnity till 1800;
but not a single person had thought proper to bring
any
etuit, till, m 1800, all those who had been silent
came forward with their complaints, and Parliament
thought proper to indemnify the Ministers. It had
been acknowledged that this was a Parliamentary
proceeding, and we were now under the same cir-
cumstances. He could therefore see no reason for
postponing the second reading. Parliament had
passed the Suspension Act under great ani serious
considerations, on the Reports of two Secret Commit-
tees ; and nobody who recollected the contents of
those Reports could believe that there were not strong
grounds for giving such power to the Ministers of
the Crown. The Noble and Learned Lord then pro-
ceeded to justify the proceedings in the formation of
the last Secret Committee, arguing, that there was
no way so satisfactory to the feelings of Ministers as
to form it by ballot. When Noble Lords argued
that there had been only little riots in Spafields, and.
insignificant disturbances in other parts, they seemed
entirely to forget what had been prevented by the
Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, with which it
might have happened that some of those persons of
high rank might not have been present at this time
to debate the question before them ; for, as was well
known, an open enemy was not so dangerous as
those who planned their designs in secret. That man
must have a stout heart, who would say, that is No-
vember, 1816, he did not see in London cause for
very serious alarm. As to the second meeting in
Spafields, although he was not inclined to say that
those persons were guilty of treason, yet he would
say, that those Ministers who had not thought pro-
per to submit the case to the decision of a Jury,
would have been guilty of a great dereliction of their
duty, as they would if these in Derby and Notting--
ham had been left at large. Were those persons suchi
as wanted Reform in Parliament ? No ; it was no-
thing less that they aimed at than the destruction of
all the constituted authorities of the realm, and their
object was to march with arms in their hands to the
execution of their purpose. Then to what was the
present state of the country owing ? Those who had
formed a true opinion knew that its tranquillity was
more the result of the Suspension of the Habeas Cor-
pus Act than of any other proceeding, and the ope-
ration of it had been mild, merciful, and preventive
of mischief. After farther arguing in behalf of the
second reading of the Bill, and sheaving why the in-
formation received by Government ought not to be
exposed, the Noble Lord concluded with contending
that the proceedings were in exact conformity to
those of Charles 11. and that this country would not
have been the great and powerful nation that it is, if
it had not had the good sense, on different occasions,
to make a temporary sacrifice of its liberties for the
general welfare.
Lord HOLLAND said, he would not confine him-
self to the question, whether the second reading of
the Bill should take place that night? but would
state the nature, character, objects, and motives of it,
which he could not do without feeling indignation
and abhorrence of the principle on which it was
founded. The precedents quoted by the Nobli Lords
were at complete variance with one another. The
arguments of the Noble Lord who spoke last had
tended rather to entangle than to elucidate the sub-
ject. The Noble Duke who brought in the Bill had
`thought proper to give it a title beforehand, and to
call it a Bill of Indemnity. This reminded him of
an argument of Tristram Shandy, on the propriety of
christening a child before it was born. If no men
had been wrested except on information upon oath,
it was clelr that no Bill of Indemnity was necessary
for Ministers ; for if they had not exceeded the powers
given them by the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act, they incurred no penalty. To say that the Bill
was for the purpose of preventing them from disclos-
ing evidence, had no meaning. But it was not for
the Secretary of State for the Home Department
that the Bill had been brought forward—it was for
the protection of Mr. Oliver, and those men who
were to be secured from the concequeaces of the law ;
for that wmt,h, in particular, who was to be secured
by Site sLidd of power, and in whose behalf all law

was to be trampled down. The Noble Lord then
went at considerable length into an examination of
the precedents gamed by the Lord Chancellor, con-
tending that they were mostly periods of civil war,
and consequently the Ministers thought themselves
entitled to have recourse to a measure which he was
far from approving.
Viscount SIDMOUTII declared that he had no
wish to ask for any indemnity on his own account,
for he knew that he had conscientiously performed
his duty ; white in the situation in which he stood,
it was not for him to take a part in the debate.—
There was no situation in which he could be placed,
affecting his liberty or security in any way, that
could induce him to betray the confidence that had
been reposed in him. The Noble Lord had certainly
used the greatest number of opprobrious epithets to-
wards Mr. Oliver that he had ever heard applied to
any individual. He denied that Oliver was to be pro-
tected by this Bill. No steps had been taken on the
evidence of that man under the Habeas Corpus Sus-
pension Act ; it was therefore impossible for him to
come within the scope of the present measure. The
Noble Lord who had last spoken, had been pleased
to draw a most degrading picture of those to whose
care the internal tranquillity of the country was in-
trusted. The. House, however, would remember,
that the. Magistrates performed the duties entrusted
to then% and instead of deserving to be treated with
such severity, they were entitled to the respect and
gratitude of their countrymen. With respect to what
the Noble Lord had said on the subject of spies and
informers, what had fallen from him was justifiable
if be could believe the statements which had gone
abroad. In the course he had taken this night, he
was perfectly consistent with himself, fot he believed
it might be said of the Noble Lord that he had never
yet supported any law that Ministers considered ne-
cessary to preserve internal tranquillity. He dis-
dained to encourage a system of espionage, as much
as the Noble Lord could do, but if he had opportu-
nities of possessing himself of information which he
thought important to the safety of the countty,
was he to accept it, or to reject it because it was
furpished by informers? Could the Noble Lord
say that if he were in office, he would avail him-
self of no intelligence that might be so procured?—
He could only say, that for himself, he sincerely
wished that every circumstance connected with the
late proceedings could be fully explained. As to the
comolaints of the persons who had been confined,
which had been adverted to by the Noble Lord, he
'could most solemnly declare, that of the number of
persons who had been detained, there was not a sin-
gle case which excited in his mind any feelings of
self-reproach or of compunction. He had done no-
thing under the late Act, but what under similar cir-
cumstances he should feel himself bound to do again.
With respect to the treatment of the individuals who
had been taken up, he had to say that the statements

which had been made were not only gross misstate-
ments, but were absolutely false, and utterly at va-
riance with the acknowledgments formerly made by
the same persons themselves. The chief purpcsc for
which he had risen, was to state that Oliver could
not be protected by this Bill, and he defied any one
to show that an improper use had been made of that
measure, or that the power given to Ministers had
been exerted in any way repugnant to honourable
feelings, or inconsistent with the true principles of
the constitution.

Lord HOLLAND rose to explain. He denied that
he had passed any such sweeping censure on the Ma-
gistrates as had been imputed to him. His argument
was simply this : that as Ministers had openly en-
couraged the busy meddling activity of spies and in-
formers, and as Magistrates were merely men, and
actuated by human motives, it was possible that one
consequence of the system adopted by Ministers
might be, that some Magistrates out of a vast num-
ber would be induced to act with more zeal than
discretion, with more anxiety to please the Govern-
ment than to keep within the strict limits of their
duty. The Noble Viscount could not pretend to say
that such an effect had not been produced on some
Magistrates.
Earl GROSVENOR said, that nothing had occur-
red which could justify the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act. There was nothing that might not have
been left to the ordinary laws of the country. The
Noble Viscount might be, and perhaps was, satisfied
with his own conduct, but his self-opinion furnished
no sufficient reason for the satisfaction of the House
generally ; the grounds of that self-approbation must
be better explained before the House could ratify it
by their sanction. The Noble Viscount had defended
Oliver, and not without cause • for, if Oliver should
turn out to have been guilty of the acts imputed to
him, then the Noble Lord himself would be answer-
able for the conduct of his agent, on the common
principle of Qui facit per alium,facit per se. • But be
would not now, at this late hour, discuss a :abject
which might be discussed at another time, but should
content himself with expressing his decided appro-
bation of the nioeion of his Noble Friend.

The Earl of CAERNARVON would not detain
the House long, but he could not be content with a
silent vote. The Noble Viscount (Sidmeuth) had
commenced his speech by disqualifying himself from
taking any part in the present discussion, and had
fairly avowed what was the fact, that he could not
with propriety advocate a measure which was so per-
sonal to himself ; this was a very correct view of the
subject, and he trusted that the Noble Viscount would
carry it a step further, and would give no vote on, a
matter so extremely personal. (A laugh, hear,
hear.) Rut he should like to know w and haw
the Noble Viscount had arrived at this just opinion ?
for he (Lord Caernarvon) could not but recollect thit
a few days ago that Noble Lord had appointed him-
self to sit as judge on his own conduct, in conjunction
with certain other judges, all chosen from a list
furnished by himself. (Cries of hear, hear, hear.)
The Noble Viscount seemed to consider that the great
object of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act was to
detain persons in prison whom they never had tie
least intention of trying; in other words, that it was
its object to erect in every county a bastile for per-
sons who were &noxious to Ministers : he would tell
the Noble Viscount that this was an erroneous view
of the subject, and he doubted whether their Lord-
ships would ever have given their consent to such an
act bael Ministers avowed such an object. He wen'. d
not 'how trouble the House any further—(h. hear,
hear), he should have a better orportunity when th:
details of the bill should come before Leir Load-