Star.
London, England, 1821-07-04 00:00:00

lin answer to the•assertion of King, and contended had been published against the Queen I (Hear, hear).
that Orton had done no more than ask if the whole —One was a libel on a woman, the other on a man,
set of a work of which he saw a mmber lying on the and this excellent Society had taken re) notice of the
counter could be completed? The crime was here first—(Cheers).—The Press had teemed With the
found existing, and not created by any act of Orton. most disgusting libels; yet had this same, this 'Mina-
With respect to the observations of his [lon. Friend, create Association, emptied all the phials of their
the Member for Bramber, he could only say that on wrath on the other side, and that only—((leer, hear).
the repetition of Carlile's offences after he bad been The Society was, in fact, evidently erected for party
imprisoned, he (the Attorney-General) felt the outrage purposes, to punish libels on one side, and, it not
of those offences as deeply as his Hon. Friend, and to encourage, at least to leave untouched all those on
he in consequence prosecuted Carlile's wife for selling the other—( Hear, hear).
the pamphlet alluded to. She was now suffering im- The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that in
prisonment for her offence—his daughter and sister order to form a correct opinion on the present clues-
were also prosecuted, and a prosecution was now im- tion, it would be proper to inquire what was the state
pending over the head of the shopman for the same of the proceedings referred to by the motion ? Bills
offence—(Hear, hear). What was the consequence? had been found by Grand Juries against individuals
The shop was now closed. With respect to the le- for various libels; the Judges of the Court; of Law
Igality of the Society, his opinion was, that he could had held these defendants to bail ; and now the
see no reason to say that the Society was illegal. House of Commons was called upon. to address the
Rut if it were thought so by any person, it was open Crown to stop these prosecutions, without any in-
to him to have it tried before a competent tribunal. quiry into e.eir merits. The Hon. and Learned Mem- ,
He denied that because an individual subscribed to ber here entered inio a review of the ptoceedings
this Association, that therefore he was incapacitated against Dolby, and contended that the Society had,
from sitting as a Juror on any of those prosecutions. in the course of the proceedings, done nothing which
He admitted that, in the best Institutions, abuses was not justified by law. The stock of Dolby was
might creep in; but he conceived that until those not demanded; he was only desired to give up the I
abuses were proved it was too much to say that the remaining copies of the libel refereed to in the indict-
prosecutions which had been commenced ought to be ment. His Honourable , and Learned Friend (Mr.
stopped by the interposition of this House—( Hear). Brougham) had not denied the legality of the So-
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that, in his opinion, a ciety. Another Honourable and Learned Member
man might with perfect consistency approve of the denied its legality, on the ground that no individuals
other Societies alluded to incidentally, and yet dig- had a right to subscribe for the purpose of prose-
approve of that under the notice of the House; as outing public libels. That was an agreement which
the distinction between them was as clear as possible. it appeared had now been given up. Indeed no at-
Some offences were, and ought to be, nameless, and tempt had been made in the superior Courts to ques-
ought to be prosecuted; though many a man would tion the legality of the Society; and an attempt
feel a repugnance at having his name mentioned in made before another tribunal had completely failed.
the same line with such an offence, even as its prose. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then referred
tutor. The argument drawn from the Societies to the Society f 1792, which he said had been ably
prosecute for thefts could not apply to the present and eloquently defended by Lord Erskine himself, or,
Association. How was it possible that a man s feel- the trial of Wiliiains for publishing Paine's Age of
ings could be so interested in the case of a theft as Reason. What, indeed. could be a more proper
they would he upon a question purely political ? object than the prosecuting of seditious libels? And
Party feeiing would interfere, and even the Jury be- what sound objection could be raised against a So-
come contaminated with it, by the encouragement of ciety who could not take a -single step without the
such a Society as this. The remedy proposed would previous opinion of a Grand Jury ? That such a So-
be an aggravation of the mischief; tor, as had been ciety was capable of abuse he did not deny, but no
well observed by his Honourable and Learned Friend, ground had been shewn to induce a belief that any
it would lead to the pollution of the very fountain abuse whatever existed in the conduct of these prose-
of justice. The Attorney-General had said, he did cations. He begged to correct his Hon. and Learned
not see that Members of this Association were dis- Fliend'as to a remark he had made on the proceed-
qualified to sit as Jurymen on prosecutions instituted ings in the Court of King's Lench on the motion re-
by the Society. The Court of King's Bench, how- specting the Members of the Association qualified to
ever, had declared them unfit, and had ordered, that serve on the Special Jury. The order of t!le Court
the fact of a Juryman's being a member, should be relied on by his Hon. and Learned Friend had been
a good cruse of challenge. If he (Mr. Broueliam) made with the consent of the prosecutors them-
subscribed to bring on an indictment, he certainly selves—(Hear, hear). No person, unless called on by
was an improper person to try it—(Hear, hear).— a sense of duty, could consistently make charges of
He really thought he must, in this respect, have mis- this description, which went forth with an appear-
understood the words of his Hun. and Learned Friend, ante of authority. As to the proposition itself, it
the Atrorney-General—(Hear, hear).—ln the case of was of so extravagant a nature, that it was impossi-
a felony, if a man had subscribed money to find the ble to give it the sanction of the House. It was making
bill el indictment, he (Mr. Brougham) held that this an attack which the House would never support.
would be a good cause for challenging him as a Mr. BROUGHAM. in explanation, said that he
juror ; and yet in such a case it was not likely that had not alluded to Dolby's case, nor said one word
anything had occurred from the act itself to rouse about it; he had solely alluded to the words of the
the passions. But the Bridge-street Association was Circular signed "J. B. Sharpe," which stated that
founded in party feeling alone. Even the;r enthu- the Society had instituted several proceedings, and
siasm, however honest, was dangerous; they at- abandoned some, upon the surrender upon oath, by
tacked only those who differed from them in politics: the defendants of their entire stock of seditious pub-
and not the least objectionable part of the case was lications—(Hear!, from the Ministerial Benches).—
the circumstance, that if the matter were carried by '6 Yes!" continued Mr. Brougham, " but the Society
writ of error to the House of Lords, the last legal arrogated to itself the right to decide on what was
resort, there were some dozen of Bridge-street Asso- seditious"—(Hear. hear).
ciators to give check-mate to the proceedings—(A The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked, that the
laugh, and cries of Hear, hear).—Would any man of observation certainly applied to Dolby's case.
common understanding say that this was consistent Mr. BROUGHAM-66 Then, if it does, the So-,
with common justice? The influence of the Mem. ciety has bragged falsely, and the defence makes
hers of this Association was not confined to London. them worse than they are supposed to be."
How could an impartial Jury be found in the country, Mr. SCA RLETT said, his Hon. and Learned Friend
half' a dozen Jurors being tenants of the Duke of this, had risen for the purpose of calling him up, at the
that, or the other, a Member of the Society ? How same time making statements c:f facts for the mete
could the unfortunate defendant have a fair chance?— purpose of making them the foundation- of his al gu.
A Counter-Association, he repeated, would be worse ments. He never had pledged himself to any opinion
than the present evil; for it would cause the whole on the legality of this Association. He admitted that
ccuntry to be split into parties, and would destroy the he did not consider the Society legal. Much as he
hitherto proud character of English justice. The respected the talent of his Learned Friend. he would
strict legality of the Association on its professed prin. not, in compliment to that talent, revoke any opinion
cipies he did not deny; but the legality was no ob- he had once given. He thought this Association
jection to the interference of the House. The abuse, usurped the functions of the Attorney-General. All
even of a legal right, might be a fair subject for in- offences which affected the tranquillity of the State,
terference. He did not ask whether what Mr. King should be prosecuted by the Government of the
had said, or what Mr. Orton had said, was true ; but Country. It was the duty of the Attorney-General
he wa• satisfied that Mr. Murray and Mr. Sharpe had to exercise a discretion whether the parties were to he
bragged of the commission of acts which were illegal. prosecuted or not ; but an Association of men, when
He thought it was not legal to go into a man's shop they undertook to prosecute, usurped that discretion,
and say to him, " If you don't agree to certain terms and their proceedings were illegal and dangerous.—
I propose. I will indict you : if you do not admit For these reasons then, without at all considering the
your guilt, and give up your property to us who have motives of the individuals, he was of opinion the
no right to ask it, and who cannot take it without vio- Constitutional Society in itself was unconstitutional,
lating the law : if you do not, besides air this, take and consequently -illegal. He did not mean to say
an oath never to repeat that which we pronounce to the Judges of tiie Land had decided on the question,
be a legal offence; we will inflict legal vengeance indeed he did not know how they could obtain judg-
upon you, and you must endure the consequence." nient upon it. lle considered it a Society for the
To do this, he thought was to act more like a robber prosecution of political offences which affect the
than anything else—more like a violator than a pro- safety and tranquillity of the State. Their prose-
tector of the law. This he held to be illegal. If this cutions did not emanate from persons aggrieved ;
WAS the laW, he had not studied it ; if it was a part of but they were preferred to benefit the State. Every
the Constitution, he did not understand it. If these man had an interest in the preservation of the State,
proceedings were to be supported by Peers, who and the law did not require an Association to do that
might ultimately have to pronounce upon them ju- which belonged to the Government alone—(lfear).
dicially, then all he could say was, that there never Upon his solemn word, he believed one or more of
was an Association put down as illegal half so much the prosecutions that were undertaken by the Asso-
to be reprobated as this Society, this terror to all ciation, would not have been undertaken by the At-
good men, commonly known by the name of the torney-General. The Society for the Suppression of
Vice might abuse the power they used. In one " Bridge-street Gang r!"--(Cries of Hear, hear).—
in-
There were, however, many persons belonging to the stance Lord Erskine threw up his brief, because the
Society for whom, individually, he entertained a very Society obstinately refused to be governed by his
high respect. To those he should prefer using the advice. All Societies prosecuting upon public prin.
lenguageof expostulationrather than that of reproach. ciples were dangerous. He did not wish to give any
opinion on the law of the land in that House, becaes.e
—He believed they had been drawn into the Society
by designing persons; that they were the tools of legal opinions in that Assembly were not always im-
others, for whom no one could possibly feel any re- partial. He did not think any case had occte-red in'
spect—(Hear). "Church and State," "Social Order," the King's Bench to support his Learned Friend's
and " Sacred Institutions," were fine phrases; but, in ! opinion. The time might arrive when the-Attorney.
the present instance, they meant that it was necessary ! General would find he had not been sufficiently in.
that a parcel of individuals should swell their own structeel. He felt this motion could not he supported,
purses by using those of other people. Something, ' and he expressed a hope that his Honourable Friend
however, had dropped from the Hon. Member for would not press it to a division, because he should
Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), about the propriety of I feel obliged to vote against it.
putting down libels on both sides; but what was the Mr. WHITBREAD spoke in reply. He s3id, that-
.
tact ? Why, that all on one side were mown down, nothing which had been said on the other side of the
House convincedelim.that any good could ever arise
and all on the other left untouched—(Hear). Beubow,
he believed, had been prosecuted for publishing a Irom a Society like this. The only persons who °sten-
, caricature upon his Majesty; but this caricature was sibly represented the Society were Mr. Sharpe and Mr.
..tciuAlly a parody on another, quite as gross, which Murray ; he was not acquainted with either of them,