Star.
London, England, 1819-03-02 00:00:00

premature condemnation upon them, before hay-
-J. rtained their deficiencies. He should be
or teo listen to the Honourable and Learlod Gen-
-14"„ tomorrow, and to receive any correction from
hm.1'6112- asubject which had but lately occupied his
on
asticreagh's)
.mind, whilst it had been long
ibonl
23' a frequerftly considered by the Honourable and
toned Member. He cautioned him, 'however,
utging the principle .of practical reform,
tgainst suffering the passions to be too much inflamed,
exaggerated view of existing evils. For
r.2.ener.i„yin?, an
lly happened, that when the mind had been
11-roed from those exaggerations, it was disposed to
tor indifferent to what rematned, as objects of corn-
tivelv trifling importance. The increase of crimes
I.„3Farjimpo'sed on the Legislature the duty of inquiring
their causes and the means of their removal.
1-I,e number of criminals of different classes Eng-
land and Wales for the last four or five years was
rare than doubled ; and, if compared with that at
,:ccontmencement of a' period of ten years, had in-
•,,ed in the proportion of three to one. Many cir-
t,i,:instances, however, induced a hope that so great
v., increase of crimes could be traced to temporary
pies. The whole system, and almost nature of the
coary Lad been so altered,during the last twenty
-,tars, that the views given of it at that period were
;.o longer applicable. It had taken a shape—it had
,wtlied to a size. The growth of so many country
tc,,toi, the enlarl;ernent of the Metropolis, and the in..
ree in our manufacturing districts, had, in latter
,cz:s, enlarged the sphere of moral corruption and
of crime. More than one half of the increase in,
t:-.°lluniber of criminals in England and \Vales pro-
wled from the live following counties—Lancashire,
Niddlesex, Surrey (that part of it connected with the
Metropolis), Warwickshire (which contained the po-
pulous town of Birmingham), and Yorkshire, where
our manufactures had extended themselves so far.—
The growth of crime had followed the growth of
great cities and of manufactures. Among the latter,
hose of cotton had prodigiously increased: whereas
they formerly produced goods to the amount of three
or four millions sterling, they had within the last
years raised their produce to sixteen millions. A
great increase of population had also taken place,
and to this were to be added the three or four hun-
dred thousand individuals from the Arm* the. Navy,
and the Militia, which peace had thrown back upon
the country. Much, therefore, of the mass of crime
vas connected with temporary causes. Not only hail
those men been thrown out of a service which ha
not formed them to habits of industry, but there had
fallen on this country such a degree of pressure of
difficulties, of want of employment, and lowness of
wages, forcing the poor to come on their parishes for
relief, as constituted an amount of distress greater
than had ever been knowit. All these causes opera-
ted in an aggravated manner to the production of
crime; and whilst the vast extent of die evil was ad-
mined, there remained no option but resolutely to
rive against it. Lapse of time, and a return to the
habits of industry, would greatly diminish its amount,
for it was chiefly in passing from one state of live-
lthood to another, that the temptations to dishonesty
acted with the greatest force—(Hear, hear, hear 1)
Thu was a fair picture of the present state of crimes
in this country, and of the prospect of their removal.
Other consolatory hopes opened from no additional.
pinciple of immorality having attached itself to out
rational habits. If the offences against property,
occasioned by distress, were'separated from those
of a blatker dye, the same increase of crime would
not be traced in the latter. Far from it : there would
wen be no positive increase in that class of offences,
if compared with the account of the same crimes in
former times when our population was smaller.—
Murders had not.increased. The convictions for that
crime had last year been fewer than during a great
period of our history—(Hear, hear.) Neither had
t:sere been any increase in the following crimes :
Maiming, shooting, manslaughter, bigamy, assaults,
rapes, and unnatural practices. Nay, there had been
rather a diminution. The great MASS .of increase was
in the crimes of forgery, larceny, burglary, and rob •
eery. An Honourable Member opposite had,-with
1.;
usual warmth, attributed the increase of forge-
ries to the neglect of the Bank. But an inquiry had
since proved that the Bank had done ar,d was willing
to do every thing in its power to renJer the imitation
of its notes impracticable. There wits also too much,
disposition to think that the augmentation of forge-
t:es had grown out of the stoppage of cash-payments
and would cease with their resumption. This was
c-,tirely wrong, and no hope could be held out that
tae opening of the Bank would produce a correspond-
irg reduction in that class of offences. But though
tr.:: number of forgeries had increased, that of execu-
Lora for the crime had been less during the last eight
or ten years, than during the eight or ten which had
receded. If the period which had elapsed since the
imposition of the Bank Restrictions was divided into
two, it would be found that the executions for forgery
gad been fewer during the latter than the former part.
As to burglaries and robberies, they had increased in
a minor proportion, and it was satisfactory to find
thzt they did not bear the same character of atrocious
•;r..,.ence and cruelty as in former periods. There was
a:to an additional proof that the increase of crimes
ought to be in a great measure attributed to tempo-
ritry circumstances. That proof was found in the
small augMentation which' had taken place in the
-'amber of female offenders. It bore no proportion
ll
'..,...atever to that of the males, and shewed that the
t:-.llces had been chiefly committed by that sex, who
been placed in a state of greater diliculties by
ce.tation of war and other causes. It was also
.-t.ly ing to observe, that if the laws of the country
:;t:1 not been materially altered in the severity of

Prov:,ions, their administration had been con-
c7cte.l wit!: great leniency. Notwithstanding the
.gr >wth of crime, there had been not only no
ir.crease, but a diminution, in the number of
vleakioni. In 1905, the number of sentences of
passed was 3.so—in the last
*year Ws'. But
k:g fourteen years, out of those c nysitally fo:.victfid
Li ;lily had been-executed whilst, in 1317, the
7ropialion was one in eleven., and in IblB, one in
zweive. The whole number or persons who had
s.•:.i.erot! under the sentence of thuilaw in Great Bri
curing the last year was 97, and tl.at number
..au nut varied for many years past. 1 here was a
ilne when the number executed in London and Mid-
eieset alone exceeded thatwhich stow sufficed for the
v•hele country. He held a document, from which it
141aTed, t'iat immidiately after the conclo- ion of

the American war, the 'number of executiorts for
London and Middlesex alone was in the following

proportions ;

Iu 1783 -
1784
1701
•
—lf he had not taken an erroneous view of the sub-

ject; it was therefore clear that instead of increasing,
the administration of the laws had diminished in se-
verity. The present state of crimes, however, was

no doubt an evil of great magnitude, and of a nature
likely to appal the House, if it were not traced to

- -
temporary causes. It had not taken a direction at
- • •

- -
which our nature would revolt ; but one which cir-

cumstarices had prescribed to it, and which exertion

mem part of the Legislature might ultimately cor-
rect. An Honourable Member opposite had seemed
disposed to attribute the increase of crime exclusively

to the corrivrlions witnessed by
.young offenders in
prisons that were improperly administered. Ile (Lord
Castlereagh) agreed with him to a certain extent;
but the House would fall miserably short of its duty
if it supposed that the great mass of .the increase
arose from that single cause. There were others
which required the best efforts to be used for their
counteraction. Let the House lay its shoulders, not
only to inquire into the state of prisons, hut into that
of crimes, if it aeished to reach the evil. With a view
to rendering secondary punishment effectual, an im-
portant question would open itself to the House. It
would be necessary to consider whether Botany Bay
had not assumed too much of a Colonial character
to be an object of terror to offenders, and whether it
would not ba proper to make some new arrangement
for their transponation, which would add more
dread to their sentence than what arose from the
humanity with which they wefe sent to that Colony,
(notwithstanding what had been asserted by an Ho-
nourable Member), and treated during their exile.—
So far from creating apprehension, many persons re-
ceived the order of going to Botany Bay, as an in-
dulgence rather than a punishment. If the terrors
of the law were so blunted, was it wonderful that
crime should increase? He would not now enter into
an examination of the state of our criminal law. He
had shewn that it was administered with lenity, 'and
if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman took it in the,
abstract, be would impute a character to it which
did not belong to its practical administration, It
might be a question whether it was politic that our
law should demand the penalty of death for offences
which no other country visited so severely ? but it
would be a most difficult and anxious consideration
how to deal with crithe when it assumes a different
character from the circumstances with which it is
"attended. To suppose that it „would be possible to
graduate the scale of punishment so as to meet all
lshades of guilt, would be to suppose a perfection, or'
rather an imperfection, in our Penal Code, which
would strip mercy of that judgment and discretion
with which it is now invested. If punishments were
pitched too low, all their terrors would vanish ; and
if, in those crimes in which the sacrifice of life is re-
quired, an attempt was made to graduate -punish-
ments, instead of leaving it to the Judge to 'measure
it according to the circumstances of the case, a
direct encouragement would be held out. to guilt.
He hoped that the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman felt as he did, that there was no separate
interest between them, and that they had but one
common object—a most laborious investigation into
the state of crimes and punishments. He submit-
ted to the House that the only way to render that
inquiry effectual was to collect it into one focus.—
If it were dispersed amongst different Committees,
the exertions of some of the ablest Members would
be lost to the 'louse; because they would be confined
to one branch of the subject, instead of being applied
to the concoction of the whole. The chief object of
the inquiry might be thus defeated. On these grounds
he trusted the House would accept the Committee
which he intended to propose. If the number of its
Members was thought too limited, he should not object
to add to it from time to time, in order that the most
-comprehensive view of so great and important a
subject should be submitted to the House. He should
move for the Committee in the form of a notice, in
which he had placed every term which could tend to
make the inquiry as comprehensive as. possible. If
it were not found so, he should be willing to, amend
his motion in any manner which could add to its ef-
fect. Ile. deprecated any effort to inflame the pas-
sions of the multitude, and to make them fancy that
a boon was about to be given to crime. Nothing
could be more unstatesmanlike than such a course,
and lie trusted the question would be discussed on
practical grounds, and not on abstract principles of
untried combinations. He then moved, that a Com-
mittee be appointed to inquire into the state and de-
scription of Gaols and other places of confinement,
and into the best method of providing for the refor-
mation, as well as the safe custody and punishment,
of -offenders.

Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, rather because

it might seem want of courtesy on his part not to re-
ply, when he had been so frequently adverted to,
than from any wish to interfere to the present stage
of the debate—(hear, hear.)—The Noble Lord, in
the eloquent and able speech which he had just con-
chided, had said a great deal in reference to his (Sir
J. Mackintosh's) Motion, but hardly any thing in ex;
planation of his own. For himself, hs had already
stated his determination sot to open the merits of
his ensuing Motion before it came on. He should
not follow the Noble Lord, in replying to the objec-
tions he had made to that Motion ; but when it came
on to-morrow, he should urge whatever "he might
feel necessary ; and if the louse judged proper, it
would a course reject it. He should to-morrow
move, That a Select Committee be appointed to
consider the operation and nature 'of the Criminal
Laws,#relative to the Capital Punishment of Felony."
'When the Noble Lord thought proper to admonish
him against exercising those arts which might excite the
minds of criminals, lie nuist take the liberty of say-
ing, that such admonition was perfectly unnecessary
addressed to him. If he possesseit the power even
of exciting one dormant feeling in those men, he
should shrink from the imputation of doing so, if it
, wnre likely to influence the discussion of so grave a
question. The Noble Lord need not have made the
allusion ; fir neither on this nor on any other oecision
was it possible for him (Sir James Mackintosh) tb de-*
viate froth that love, respect, and reverence, which
he should ever entertain for the laws sod for hist
country—(Hear, hear)--The best poi be OW

adduce •of the sincerity of those • feelings Was, he
thought, the notice he should submit on the question
before the House: that question involved the consi-
&ration of the three grand punishments—death,
transportation,' and imprisonment.
Mr. LAWSON said, that where the subject was
so spliced and complicated as the one now before
them, so completely a "aria juncta in uro,". he
thought itsimpossible to separate the consideration of
the matters it involved. The Learned and Honour-
able Gentleman might have three distinct Commit-
tees; but it would be found impossible, by each, to
consider the one question without entering into the
other. That which should consider death, must first
inquire into the effect and intention of transportation,
and so on, till every successive Committee, let him
have as many as he pleased, discovered that it had all
the labours of all the preceding ones to go through.
Considering all that had been said as to the increase
of crime, is must be clear that increase of penalty
must be most ineffectual to repress it ; they might go
on extending it until penalty itself became a nonentity.
Ours was not a code of laws reedy cut and dried 14
every particular emergency, brit had grown with the
increase of crimes—and were they to annihilate, or,
at any rate, re-model those laws which regarded the
welfare of the good and loyal, rather than that of
the vicious and depraved? Were they now to exert
that zeal which they had so lately manifested in be•
half of the sacredness of private property, in favour
of those who were its greatest enemies and declared
depredators? The Committee proposed by the Noble
Lord would have to inquire not merely into the state
of jails and houses of correction, but into the pro-
priety of the punishments that were inflicted, and into
the extent of local jurisdictions. This latter branch
of inquiry was one of peculiar importance in some
parts of the kingdom, and especially in Scotland.—
One of the reasons assigned for the melancholy and
deplorable state of the prisons in that part of Great
Britain was, that there were no funds provided for•
their maintenance. In Ireland the case was nearly
the same. But the Committee would have further
to inqure into the system of regulations which pre-
trailed' in each separate jail ; and having had some ex-
perience on this subject, he was persuaded, that with
all the zeal which could be applied by different Mem-
bers, it would be found impossible to investigate the
condition of more than two or three jails in the course
of a Session. If the Noble Lord meant that viva toce
evidence should be produced—and without it the
object in view must be frustrated—it would scarcely
be possible for a septennial Parliament to fill up the out-
line pointed out by the terms ot theNoirleLord's motion.
But the present state of Botany Bay was another sub-
ject which was also to be submitted to the conside-
ration of the Committee, and in connexion with it,
the infliction of capital punishments. Was the House
apprised that there were not less than 1.5--s-eatirtes.,
appertaining to and constituting the Criminnl Law
of the country? The Noble Lord had suggested the
idea of a Committee, subdividing itself into Bureaus,
composed respectively of three, five, or seven mem-
bers, and carrying on a contemporaneous inquiry into
different parts of the subject. TO him such a project
appeared to.be as contrary to parliamentary practice
as to the dictates of common sense. As respected the
state of Botany Bay, .he .had reason to believe that it
had been in contemplation to settle a new colony, of
a somewhat different character, in that part of the
globe, and that for this*purpose the survey had been
ordered to be made. He trusted, however, that the
important consideration of the expense necessarily at-
tendant on all such undertakings would not be over-
looked.

Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the object
in view, when the survey was appointed, was to as-
certain-whether the Colony was not overgrown, and
whether some more eligible' spot for a settlement
might not be discovered.
Mr. C. W. WYNN thought the strongest objection
was not to the motion of the Noble Lord, but to the
statements and explanations with which he had ac-
companied it. It was evidently impossible that any
Committee could, in a reasonable time, get through
the examination embraced by the terms of the Noble
'Lord's motion. But he objected also to the appoint-
ment of a Committee with such large powers, and
for purposes not specified, but to be understood only
by implication.—( Hear, hear.)—lt was the business
of a Committee to collect details, and to communi-
cate information to the House ; but it was for the
House itself to form a final opinion. With regard to
the formation of Sub-Committees, pursuing different
branches of the inquiry, and communicating the re-
sult to the whole Body as a focus, the an-angement
was undoubtedly good; but he should wish to see
the House appoint these different Committees, and
to have the result of their labours brought also at
once before the House. It was too much the practice
to appoint Committees on particular subjects, from
year to year, and to imagine that the whole labour
of considering them had devolved from the House
upon those Committees. The history of this country
would, however, furnish instances of the danger at-
tending such a practice, and the negligently permit-
sing Committees to draw to themselves the powers
of the whole House. knowing, as he did, that an
inquiry into the Prisons of the Metropolis alone had
occupied a whole Session, that a considerable diffe-
rence of opinion existed as to the rights of the City
of London and County of Middlesex, and considering
that the objects included in the Motion were so van.
ous 'as well as important, .he could not but conclude
that it would be beyond the power of one Parliament
sAtisfactorily- to execute such an inquiry. With se-
Tect to the Motion which was to be brought forward
to-morrow (this day), he was of opinion that it would
be better to refer it to a Committee of the whole
House than to a Committee up stairs. It alpearad
that thetitatutes at large would be brought, into dis-
cussion, and after the examples which the House had
had of Committees exceeding the powers intrusted to
them, he thought they should be captiou4how they
appointed any with a vague and undefined authority.
Even admitting that two adequate Conmiittees could
not be formed at the Saul time, it might be better to
F postpone one inquiry, than to prosecute both in the
manner suggested by the Noble Lord.
Alderman WOOD observed, that he should not
hav‘offmTd himself to the attention' of the House,
had It nOchain. for the Noble Loi'd's observation with
,iesPeet to ilhcharged soldiers. Having had a good
Weal of experience, he could assure the House, that
not above me inst bandied bid been convicted of a
cria.ie withµ thsjurisdietiOa of tile, city. Sometimes

&tor GO persons, chiefly sailors, were brought before
the Magi .trates, but it was in th situation of . paupers
requiring to be passed to their homes. The great me
crease of crimes was to be ascribed to the promisch—
ons congregation of prisoners left without employe
ment. lie had, by virtue of an authority from Lord
Sichnouth, visited all the gaols in the country, and
was convinced that it would Luce six or seven years to
make an efficient Parliamentary inquiry. If it could
be done in consistency with the orders of the House,
he should move that the evidence taken before the
former Committee should be laid before the present.
Mr. BUXTON said, he supposed the object of the
Noble Lord was to bring forward some general legi-
slative measure upon the Report of the Committee.
Nothing cbuld be more deplorable than the situation
of a young boy committed, perhaps, at first for some
minor offence, to one of our gaols, which he deemed
only receptacles of crime. Every trade required in. .
struction, and the trade of fraud, no doubt, required
it like all others. A gaol was a seminary of fraud,
and to this the boy was committed; he had a disin-
clination to work, and he was associated with the idle
and debauched ; he liked bad company, and be was
introduced into the worst—(flour, /sear). It was mise-
rable to see the facility with which such unhappy crea-
tures adopted the manners, the phraseology, and the.
tone of the hardened offenders they associated with ;
how soon they became ambitions to rival the most
desperate ; for there was a species of credit attached
to such emulation in this fraternity of rogues—(blear, •
hear.)—At length the young offender, thus tutored
and broke in, bee:Aare a villain; and ho was made
such by a public institittion—(hear, hear).
The question was then put, and carried in the af-
firmative. The following Aembers were among those
appointed on the Committee :
Lord CIS' lercagh, Mr. Clive;
Mr. Calming, fir. Wilmot,
Sir J. Mackintosh, Mr. V. fitzgerahl,
Mr. Buxton Sir J. Newport.
Mr. Brougham, ?Or. As!ell,
Mr. Bennet, The Attorney-Cencral,
Sir W. Scott, . Mr. Wiiberiorce,
Mr. Serjeant Copley, Sir William C4r-isi
Sir A. Piggott, Mr. S Wortliy.
BANK or ENGLAND.
Mr. CALLAGHAN rose to move for an Account
of aj. Bauk Notes and Post Bills in circulation for
each day, from the 25th of January to the Ist 'of
March, 1819. He Said that his intention in moving
for this Account was, that it might shew the cause of
the extraordinai y depreciation in the money market in
London. If it appeared that the Bank had reduced
its issues, that might account for the extraordinary
depreciation which had taken place in public securi-
ties. But if, on the other hand, it should appear
that there was not an unusual diminution in the is-
sues, it would tend to remove 'an imputation from
the Bank of its endeavouring to niggle out its ac-
commodations to the mercantile community, with an •
illiberal, and at the same time, a contracted hand.
If the present state of things affected only funded
property, it would. tend to remove the alarms now
prevailing as to that species of property. But he
thought that the present state of things threatened
such injury to trade in general, and he thought that
any thing which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
might think he could with saletertate on this sub-
ject would have a very tranquillizing effect. It was
probable that some time must elapse before the Re-
port of the Secret Committee could be presented ;
and if in the mean time it could be very beneficial if
any assurance was given to the public, that in the
trausactions with the Bank no measure would be
adopted tending to the further reduction of the issues,
till the Report of the Committee was presented, and
discussed in the Ikuse.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
pressed
himself much obliged to the Honourable
Gentleman. for making this motion, as it afforded
him an opportunity of giving sonic explanation on
a subject of considerable importance. The actual
amount of issues by the Bank, instead of being mate-
rially reduced, stood much higher than they had been
on the (25th of January. Exaggerations and mis-
representations prevailed to a great extent on this
point ; but it would be expedient to deter any full
discussion of the subject till the Report of the Com-
mittee was presented. It was very important that
this Report should not be hurried, but well considered.
Thkra was only one case in which it would have been
justifiable to have an immediate report; and that was,
if it had been thought necessary that cash payments
should be resumed on the 21;th July. He hoped,
however, that when the Report was presented, and
the subject discussed, the country would recover from
!its present alarm, and trust to the wisdom of the
House, without supposing that any precipitate or ill
advised measure was in ontemplation.
1111-. ELLICE said, that great alarm had certainly
prevailed, eTecielly from the report of the reduction
of its issue by the Bank. He must acknowledge that
more was expected from the Bank than it could per.
form. He wished to know what part of the sum due
to the Bank had been paid by the Government during
the present year
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that he had no difficultz in stating that no repay-
ment had been made to the Bank this year. The
debt still stood at about £.5,00'.),CG0. Last year pre-
vision had heen made for the repayment of 8,000,0001,
but in such a way as left the amount uncertain, as the
Loan was transacted in such a way that patt was to be
taken in money, and part in Exchequer Bills, and
the proportions could not he exactly foreseen—as it
turned out the larger proportion.—Adjourned.