Star.
London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

consideration as to the death of the Pretender. There
Was 00 change in the Constitution with .respect to
Catholics. The principle of perprtual .Protestantism
was established as essential and irrevocable. It ,
was secured in different ways. It was secured by
a Protestant King—by a Protestant Parliament—by
the exclusion from civil office of all but Protestants—
and by the establishment of the Protestant Church. Bt
assenting to this Bill two of these securi ies would .he
taken away, and Protestanitsm, as established at .the
revolution, would depend on the circumstance that the
King was a Protestant. If the King married a Papist, or
held communion with the S e of it,ime, he was. pro
facto, dethroned; and this WAS the only security left to
Protestants if this Bill should pass. He (the Actor ney Ge-
neral) did not consider this provision a sufficient security,
and therefore he opposed the measure. A part of his
corn plaint was, that the Church of Ireland was materially
affected by this measure. By this measure the people
of Ireland would be assigned over to that Catholic dis-
cipline which was so discordant with the views of Pro-
testants. Something had been said of the temporality
and spirituality, or spiritual powers of the Church. In the
first place, the Church had the power of granting-every
spiritual rite. The rite of.sepulturerdivorce, mad, many
other rites, were to be all left to those erelates appointed
by the See of Rome. The questioi'sies; Whether the,
Duke of Norfolk, and another person.or two, should
have places in another House and in this? Suppose the
Prelates in this country had any power equal to that
exercised by the Irish Prelates, would any Gentleman
' submit to their controul ?—ln doing so they were
giving up the people of Ireland to this power, which
was held under a foreign authority—(Hear, hear).—
Bet this was not all. The House was'aold on a former
evening by a Noble Lord (Lord FA,. Gower) that the
power of the Catholics in Ireland would be controlled
by the liberty of the press. The language in which
this was expressed was most forcible and classiCal;
but the idea was that the liberty of the press would
break down the power of the Prelates of Ireland.—
In all productions from the press, however; there were
two component parties—the person who wtote,,and the
reader, and though persons might be toond to write, it
would not be so easy to find Person}, to tread. The
Noble Lord thought that by Bibles'etPd !Acts the dark
and dismal shade of Popish errors- atoilld be dissipated.
Let them look at the Pope's opiniorri, however, aces
-
pressed in his letter. He was not one of that respect .
able and sanctimonious class, who devoted themselves
to the circulation of the ,Bible and other works, for the
purpose of instructing the human mind; but he was
awate that many of the Prelates and persons of great
rank contributed to those societies ; it was notorious also
that the Priests prevented the labours of this class from
producing any good effect ; and the Pope called the con
tributors in his letter " strolling players," and men diffus-
ing plague and pestilence. It theNoble,Lord wrote a book
or tract, and depended for its circulation on the people
of Ireland, if it in any degree related to religion, the
Priests would be sure to insert it in the index expurgato-
rias, and any persbn %fro read it would be excommu- 1
nicated. To what a state, then, would the Catholics of.
Ireland be exposed, if they were left to the controul of
such a Priesthood! They now exercised a tyranny as
perpetual as the Romish Church, but by this measure
their power would be increased ; and he put it to- ihe
House, whether any Protestant would endure that-Pro •
testant Bishops should dictate what polemical books
he should read ? Then, if they would not dare to ex-
ercise such a controul in England, why should the
Roman Catholics be given up to any controul of this
kind in Ireland ? He begged leave to say that the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman at the other sidet Mr.Broughamj
would do him the favour to accept a compliment tor
the.very creditable manner in which he had conducted
his inquiries into the law. But what would he—the for-
mer Rector of a University in Scotland, and now possess-
ing, he believed, the power of a Rector in the London.
University—say to the rectorial power exercised in Ire-
land which would prevent the , King's subjects from
reading the Bible, save in a language which thee" did
not understand?—(Hear, hear). He knew well the power
and the benefits which floWed from education; but
what would be said if they were to leave to the. Catholic
priesthood the power of imposing upon Protestants this
system of Catholic education? Head heard jt said that
this was all idle alarm, bufall thus'e 'Who' read the eve.'
dente of Dr. Doyle and D. M•Hale must see that they
did not look upon the Irish Bishops appointed by the
King in the light of legitimate,. ands, that those only
who were appointed , by the See of Rome were wise
considered true and legitimate Bishops. 19 a,, pas-.
sage of one of his letters, J. K. L. tells Dr. Magee
that he has no right to call himself Archbishop of EW-
lin; and all the evidence before the House of Lord's
showed that it was contended d claimed by the See
of Rome, that the Protesran ishops of these realms
were only looked upon in the ight of intruders., Would
10
any one wish to see Protestant Bishops appointed by
the King, and Catholic Bishops by the Pape ? or
would any one contend that the Protestant Church
could be in a state of security while there was this de-
nial of the King's claim? James the Second attempted
something 'of the kind; for, although he did not go
the entire length of those persons, yet he still allowed
the Pope to divide the country into four districts, 'the
Vicars Apostolic over which were to all intents and
purposes Bishops in this country. He would ask what
was the use of going into Committee on this question?
for the Prelates would-never submit to what they con-
sidered intrusion. Allusioni had been made by several
Gentlemen to what was done on the Continent, by the
King of Prussia, and in Belgium. But in Silesia and
in Belgium both, the King had a Veto. In France,
too, Gentlemen were not aware that the Government
had the same controul over the Church of Rome as in
England. A Nuncio could not enter without permis-
sion, nor without a stipulation relative to hisndepar-
sure. No rescript of the Pope could enter without the
King's leave; ecclesiastical judges were appealed
horn to judges appointed by the 'gown; and it was
high treason to carry an appeal to Rome; and,
therefore, at least equal protection should be afforded
to the Government of this country,. althoUgh to.thet
it appeared the Irish Prelates would not consent. If
what was called unqualified Emancipation, then, were
to be granted, it was what would not be allowed in any
country, Protoatant or Catholic, in Europe. Would
6entlemenluto were anaimas,for tl* prove, that what
was dangerous to every other country was not dange-
rous to hassles:id and Ireland, and that Greet Britain,
should be an exception to every other State? Some
Gentlemen thought that the subject' of the Catholic
question was exhausted, and, that as the Treaty of Lime-
rick was at an end, there was nothing new to be found.
fee, however, beadle his band a pamphlets terittea by.a
very ingenious andliightlion. Member of that House
4—(Cries of " Name, name.") He would hand the pam-
phlet to those who had a curiosity on the subject; but he
went on to say, that that Right Honourable and lege-
slops Gentleman had fond a way to end all clinger
,which might arise from Cetbolics being admitted to
Plows its the Legialature--nausely, that when there
Ante Of stdtitm which bad far its object the &cis-

. •

ainstital affairs, these Members were to be dumb.—
, They were to play the game of Whist: fates the hand
.ef demos,. But what in this coupsry was to beiebif:.
Plidesed ecclesiastical and spiritual, and what was to
he deemed- merely civil and temporal, wriuld puzzle
evett the acute heads of Dr. Doyle and Dr. MiSharee, or
whatever his name might ,be. He did not know any
thin, which would be like these new kind of Members
of the ingenious Member's creation, except what we
heard on the Penryn and East Retlord Committees, of
half men and quarter men. He thanked the House for
hearing him so far,,although he
.might have availed
himself of the opportunity to sat much more—(Hear,
and langtner)--but he would not adopt the language
which he had heard used on this debate for some days
past, but which he heard with ae indignation to which
lie was inclined to yield, and which it was calculated to
excite. They were told that they were not to treat on
terms of equality, but that they were' to give up every
.thing;. that they were to yield to superiors, and it was
even said almost to them, do not attempt to treat, but
11, °reams pacem et dextru tendemus inermes."
They were told not to ask for peace for the Protestants,
not to deal or to negotiate as with equals, but to yield
to their victors—to surrender, perhaps, even without
the hopours of war, the British Constitution and the
Bill of. Rights(Hear, hear). On these grounds, he
would not not .go into the Committee, for they had al-
ready done so on.three Bills, one of which the Catholics'
would not accept, and he did not think there was any
one absurd enough to suppose that the Protestants of
England were to be intimidated to yield up without
protection those securities which were necessary for the
preservation of the Throne, the Church, and the Con-
stitntion—(Loud cheers from all sides of the House).
• Mr. WALLACE said, the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman had made strange use of the Treaty of
Limerick and the Treaty of the Union, upon neither
of which the great question before the House rests—
which Treaties, by the way, had met with strange
treatment from both sides. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman stated that Mr. Plunkett never
triaged the Treaty of Limerick upon the attention
of the House, forgetting that Mr. Plunkett had
proved, with his usual energy and power, that that
solemn &impact had been violated by the English
Government. With respect to the motion for the Com-
mittee, he begged the House to bear in mind that in
that Committee Might be fully discussed all the ques-
tions of security. He was sure that no Irish Member
could tell his constituents that the question had been
finally settled if the Committee seas refused, nor would
the Isiah people sit down in patience and silence, and
forego their claims. The Hon. Member had expended
much eloquence in denouncing the Catholic Associa-
tion ; but it was evident that if that body were illegal,
it would have been prose,.uted by the Law Officers of
. the Crown. The Hon. Member supported the motion
.at considerable length, and sat down amid loud cries of
1 Question, question!"
Mr. BUTLER CLARKE wished particularly to say,
that he was not sent to that House by the Roman Ca-
, aholics, as the Honourable Member for Wexford had-
s.id of some Irish Members. He was not sent into that
,;.House by the Catholic Association; he was not pledged
to any thing, and was as independent as any Member
of the House. What the Honourable Member had said
of the Catholics was not correct. Thee were nut hostile
to the Church; or why had so many of them entered
into a commutation for tithes? Why -had they paid
hioeenrjulTlyh,
eamndanwnerhyinhawdhitchheythaegyreaecdtedtothec tithes
o mm suot act
con-
c-rning tithes was a proof of their cheerful obedience.
The Catholics were deserving of great praise. That
they were increasing in numbers was a fact not to be
denied ; and if, out of seven millions of people, there
were two millions of men in rags, • who cared nothing
for life, the House could not expect that they would not
. show what their feelings were when an opportunity of-
fered. The Hon. Gentleman had not condescended to
throw overboard the Treaty of Limerick, though be
had done so with the Union. He would appeal 'to every
Irish Member, whether the Union could have been car-
ried, if Catholic Emancipation had not been promised
to be conceded? If the Catholics had been hostile to
the Union, it never could have been carried ; and, in
fact, they had been cajoled into an acquiescence in that
measure.
~
• Mr. HUSKISSON rose amidst loud and vociferous
calls of " question." The Hon. Member continuing..to
stand Qn the floor of the House, a Member on the Op-
position Benches moved an adjournment.
The SPEAKER--Sir„you cannot speak whilst another
Membeeis in possession of the House.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, he would feet very reluctant
to give a silent vote upon this all-important question.
He had often repeated 'his opinion, on this subject ; he
had been present upon all the discussions since the
Union; and he would say that argument on the subject
was exhausted in whatever way it might be taken. He
did•notabink the Treaty of Limerick had much to do
with. :be subject, neither would he argue much upon the
understandings abut the Union. He depended on
higher objects, and hoped such topics would never again
be introduced on the same grounds. He looked to the
state of Ireland, and the state of the Empire at large.
Mr. Pitt gave no pledge upon the subject; be knew it
from personal knowledge; he was in the confidence of
Mr. Pitt and Mr. Dundas, and he knew'the views of
'those Right Hon. Gentlemen. He was then in a sub-
ordinate office, and he would now gladly leave office,
and for ever, if he could settle this great question—
(Hear, hear).—There was no doubt that Mr. Pitt's
opinions got abroad, and these could be no doubt that
impressions were made
.which operated both on Catho-
lics and Protestants, with a view to carry the measure
of Unioo. But looking from 1793 to 1799, when the
elective franchise was given to the Catholics of Ireland,
he thought the identification of the Churches of England
and Ireland would give to Protestantism its best security.
If at that time the privilege were granted that would
subvert the Protestant Church, it was to a Legis-
lative Union that he trusted for concession on the one
hand to avoid it, and Protestant security on the other.
These considerations carried the Union. The common
safety operated to that. result. But what happened ?
One party had all their expectations raridized—:-the other
expected too much, and were since disappointed. He
again repeated there was no pledge; but he admitted
there was a great disappointment. The people of
Ireland had certainly a right to complain, and they
ought to be patiently heard by an Imperial Legis-
lature. He, had a great sense of the urgency of this
question, and whatever the doom might be to-night,
he was sure that • concession could not be much
longer delayed. The greatest men of this country
had advocated this measure; they gave a ton, ,
tp public opinion, and that, he was persuaded, would
ultimately prevail. The good seeds were sown, and
the good fruit would come 'in the course of.-time.
Amongst men of edecition the question was settled;
the question new was one of state 'spiky, and npl-of
theological consccarerey. Exclusion would be iedefee-.
Bible when fair 'emit,. was offered to the State. Als•
attract jiviiiiiwas on tii ijae ache Petitioners ; but; he

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