Star.
London, England, 1828-02-12 00:00:00

had laid before the House ibis expose, because, until he
did so, the House had no guarantee whatever as to the
course which was to be adopted. He did not see that
the public ser vice could suffer the slightest inconvenience
from the delay he proposed, while granting it would'
not only prove satisfactory to the House,..but live a
favourable earnest of what were the real intentmos of
Ministers. If, however, it should be deemed e;pedient
for the Speaker to leave the Chair without any 'further
explanation being given on the subj-ct. he thgn for one.
should certainly object to the Supply being granted for
more than three months. If it were granted for six
months all reduction in the Navy Estimates would be
hopeless. It might be late in. the Session before the
Finance Committee made its Report, and then nothing
would be done this Session in the way of retrenchment.,
—lt was very desirable the House should not give its'
sanction to several of the most important Estimates.;
before the intentions of Government were known withi
respect to retrenchment, especially as the surplus for,
the yetsr Was not considerable, not above 1,700,0001—,
Hit hoed that neither shethrty in which be had requested'
atitherNiPlanaticro Mini the Hight Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Peel), nor the reasons he had stated for so doing,
were objectionable, and that he sh 'old receive such a
reply as would be satisfactory to hiniself and the country.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he could have no right •
or inclination to complain personally of the course
pursued by the Hon. Member for Abingdon. The
ground which he had taken for objecting to the propo-
sition of his Gallant Friend (Sir G. Cockburn) was per-
fectly fair and parliamentary; but he trusted that the
Hon. Gentleman would give him his attention for a few
minutes, and having done so, he did not tipect to find
him still opposed to the plan proposed. He (Mr. Peel)
was not quite sure that the lion. Member was aware,
of the precise nature of the vote, which, if the House
resolved itself into a Committee, it would be the duty
of, his Gallant Fr lend to move. They had reference to:
laeObjetit shier might be the more safely dealt with at
(olio by the Hoare, 'because it was one upon which the.
Ilabouils of the Finance Committee could, compare, ively, :
have baitlittit effect. The estimate of the number of '
'men which would be required for the sea service for the:
year,'was a question upon which the Execute U
wernhient must be taken to be the best jedges, and as:
the lift' and allowance to be granted for the men tole':
employed were precisely similar to those for the pre-
cidibg yeah,
she did not see that any alteration could
very well be anticipated with respect to them. The
;Only votes which his Gallant Friend would propose.
Itirat•night were' the number of men and the pay and
victuals td be given them,,and that only for six months.,
No other proposition would be made to the House, and •
lie must say that in so proceeding his lion. Friendl
aa.lfar as possible, follow the pre edent of 1817
'But,: in addition to that reason fur agreeing to the plan
proposed' by his Ma. Friend, there was another con-
sideration, which was perhaps still more important.
Should Oat some supply be granted for the Navy, the
public sereite would really be put to inconvenience. It
was true that in the year 1817. the Navy Estimates
ware not voted until February 21, and that they were
notisto beproposed on the 12th of February; bat the
14bes. M .entr and the House very well know, that that
sw.aa no reason why the public service would not be in•
eturitnodeillsy a delay, fi•r the means of the Govern-
-meat to carry sin the service depenJed in a great me 4-
st:re upon the calls which had been made upon it—
(Hem /sear). Ile maintained then that the precedent
of 1817 had been followed in every respect excepting
one; the naming of the Finance Committee, and he
would explain to the House the reason why it bad not
been observed in that also. The Hon. Gentleman had
said that he had no confidence io him (Mr. Peel) upon
the subject, because, although lie bad been many years
a Member of his Majesty's Governm nt, he had i:ever
proposed any plan upon the subject. But the Hon.
Gentleman was mistaken. He (Mr. Feel) was a mem-
ber of'his Majesty's Gnvernnsent in that very year
1817, to the proceedings of which the Hon. Member
hid attached so much importai:ce.
Mr. MABERLY said, that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man hadbrought forward no plan, and had not made
any allusion to the subject of a Finance Committee
since .1817-

Secretary PEEL continued—Since then be it ;
but he might still allude to that Committee in which be
had taken a part, as a proof that he was not hostile to
useful and necessary investigation. And he must re-
mind the House, that the appointment of a FIUSOCC
Comfit tee had first been inooti-d .whi:e Lord Liverpool
was at thelsead of his Majesty's Councils ; and he did
not tesitate,to say, be firmly believed, that had that
gale 'Cord continued to bold the station he did, that
a cininees Committee would. before thi-, have been in
Lexistence—(flear!)—Certainly, he sh,uld not have oh-
L jebted to its nomination—Wear !)—and as ' a 'further r'proof that he was not hostile to the investigation, he
would remind the Hon. Gentlensaa that, on the eery
evening he took his seat in the -House, he pie notice of
his intention to ims* for a Finance Committee. At.
that time be named Tuesday (to-day), but he had since
found it would be-inconvenient to ,the House that the
subject should then be brought forward. There were
some pipers [Ube molted fot respect'ltg the Irish' Court
Of Chancery whisk would take precedence of his motion,
and its he had also reason to apprehend his Right lion.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not be
able to take his seat at so early aperiod, he had thought
it advisable to fix on Friday =tent for bringing forward
the subject. On that day be should be fully prepared
to do so, and the trifling delay which had taken place
was the effect of circumstances, and not of any desire
upon his part. He trusted, therefore, that he had shewn
that the precedent of 1817 had been as closely adheteJ
to as it was possible, and,that the votes which were to.'
be proposed that evening would not in the slightest de-
gree interfere with the exertions of the F nance Corn-
niittee ; and under these circumstances he felt that he
might with confidence call upon the House, and that it
would deem it advisable to concur in the votes to be
proposed—(Hear, hear !)
Sir J. SEIIRIGHT iaid, that he had not the slightest
wish to oppose any unfair obstacles to the proceedings
of the present Administration. His bias was quite the
other way; {cella/sou every question excepting one, he
was strongly incli---,dod to gigs it support. He confessed,
however, that the Sight HOss.GeotlUmaa had not satis-
fied him as toils. neceesity "of the 'Votes to be that night
proposed being dossisediutely granted. He did not see
.
why a short delay in granting the Supplyshotild incon-
venience thepublic service. f he fora moment thoughtil
such would be the effect of any pour:Whit% a the

votes, he world at once aid streanosiay aspen the
plan of tie Right Hon. Gentleman. 11641, however,
did not appear to him to be the case.. ;ad be should
much like to bare MOM further inferisaiiienos the sub-
ject. Why not make the vine for three months isstrad
of six ; and by so doing. convince she Home and the
public—at once produce the impression that Gowen•
mint was sincere in its professions, and did really intend
• set about an investigation of our Financial affairs
with a view to bettering their condition.--(filear.) He
ismested. that he was desirous of supporting his Majes-
ty's present Ministers ;,hethought.that there were among
them the ablest Financiers the ciuntry possessed • but.
it they did not at once evince by their anions a real AO
unaffected desire to go fully and satisfactorily into the
quefinn. all his wi,hei to assist them must be dose ItWlif
with f-t Hear.) He, therefore, hoped that the Right-Ilion.
Gentleman would explain what inconvenience. the
coMatry would suffer from the Tote being for a supply
for thrie instead of six months.

kfratillaVElF said, that meet the grounds, Web)
he believed the chief ground, ipon Which tba late Mr.
Canning's Administration restei its claim to nubile
confidence and support, was its firm determination to
investigate fully and /with all possible dispatch the few.
cial affairs of the _country. He therefore was asttwpus
to know. and the country would be much gratified by
'learning, whether the late Ministry had or had hot
made any progress in any pl in upon the sO•ject of Ft-
nonce? He wished to know whether the prwent Mini.
sters, on riming into office, had or had not fasted any
-system for financial refermadon or investigation ma-
tured, or even so far put into shape that they coedit
avail themselves of it with benefit to the smutty ? He
thought from the professions of tie Late ediaibtess. that
the country had a right to expect something of dist
•nature at their hands. Some such legacy they cugtit
to have left, and he wished to know whether they, baa
.done so or not ; aad that latought hies so the spastics
why the House did not meet in Ales. last?

Sir G.COCKftURN said 'it wrtild be practicing •a
lesion on the nouse to propose vntnK the Estimates for three
months, is if any reduction should he greed.,* by ,l'aldiantoof.
would be impossible to carry it into effect in less than sizorsonstss4
and he could also state that the Estimates were now cut so close'
that they were really in want of the money. •
Mr. HUME. said. it was the ios met. practice fot the
Minister to tome forward and state the full amount .of all the Ftla•
mates and all the Ways and Means, before he called ,on the House
to vote any Estimates. There was pow an actual deficit of 5.000.0004
fhb actual charge for the debt was WO,OOO/. snore than ii, the last
year. When he proposed. in the last Session, that Parliament should
meet in November fur the purpose of proceeding in the pork of
economy, Mr. Canning refused to pledge himself to calling the
Houk together in November. .but said, Government would pe-
ered themselves in the great and necessary work of maturing a plan
of retrenchment. He would aty that the necessity of hawing res.
course toe Committee Mewed that the Members of the Adminio•
tendon were incompetent so the functions of Government. They
should be able themselves to come to the House with a system of
retrenchment. He thought the House should not vote Estimates
until the whole subject was before them. The Finance Committee,
in 1117. recommended 19,000 seamen as all that was then neces-
sary, and held out a hope of further reduction; yet naw we were
told 30,000 seamen were necessary, and between 130 and 140 Alps
were kept in commission. America had less than 5,000 seamen
and marines; and even the number maintained by France was in.
considerable compared with ours; indeed the whole world had not
so many ships of war in eommission. He hoped the Right Hon.
Gentleman who was to be Leader of the House of COIIIIIIOII6 would
do as other Leaders bad done, and make an esposi of the wbok
intentions of Government, before the House would agree to any
,list Mutes.

The Gallery was cleared for a divi4lon, which, linwewer, did
not Gate place; and on our return we found the House inCommittee

Sir GEORGE COCK BURN movrd that 30.000
seamen, including 9,000 marines, were necessary for the service of
the ensuing sir months.

liUME acids the Goeerntrent was.now proceed-
ing like an unprincipled spetatithtift.by exceeding its income every
year, to the amout of 5,000,000 E or P,000,0001. All the expense
of our establishments, in 179 i, did not exceed 5,000,, 001. they pow
exceeded 24,000,0001: It was quite impossible that ally man who
intended that the country should pay its ereditors, could iook without
alarm at our.present proceeding. His object in g:ving ionic* of
limiting the estimates to three months was, that the pi ...titbit might
be brought under the consideration of the house again ; but whether
they were voted fur three months or six months, did not make any
material difference. When the subject of.tbe Finance ComMittee
came before the House. be would call their attention to the pro-
ceedings of the last Committee, when it was laid down. and pee-
fretly agreed to by Lord Castlereagh, that.no country could main•
tam its honour that continued an expenditure beyond its income.

Sir JOHN WHOTTESLEY said, he had hot little
faith in Finance Committees. He feared areir great effect was re
become 'sense goats for Ministers. by enabling them to increase
taxes in a manner beyond what they would otherwise venture to
propose. If the principles of free trade .were to be acted on, he
thought it would be impossible to support the present estimates.—
Those principleawent to reduce the value of every "pecies of pro-
perty in this country, that we, being a great exporting country,misbg
ilesahle to meet other countries in the foreign market. Udine this
could to.: done, the food of the people must be reduced in prior. and
Ike income of all classes of the people must also he ruhiced.except
those whose incomes were paid out of the taxes—and why shook!
not their income share the common lot.? The tummy was new
going on in the most absurd manner—borrowing money to pay At
again in an expensive manner by means of the Staking Fund. In
'the year 1826, the Exchequer_Bills in circulation were deemed its
be of a dangerous amount, and part of thlru were funded, thereby
adding to the amount of the national debt • and in the year 180 3
new issue of Exchequer Bills took place lot the purpose of paying
off so much of the National Debt! It was quite impossible that
such absurdity coul3be continued.
Air. JOHN WOOD said, the accounts laid on the
table were so conspikated, that it was quite impossible tp under-
stand them t but he would undertake to provide a couple of clerks
who, for moderate salaries. would so simplify them, that it would
be impossible to misunderstand them. A great part of this curia-
-1
plkation arose from the absurdity of keeping up the Sinking Fund
and borrowing.
Mr. HUME said, if he had the means which tbo
Ministers bad of Making up accounts, he would undertake to do it
in such a manner as that no one could misunderstand them. Suchas
method bad been pointed out to Ministers by a Committee, but
they would not adopt it.
Mr. DAWSON gave some explanation of the manner
in which the accounts were made out.
Mr. MA BERLY said Parliament r.assed a law that
there should be a sinking fund of 5,000,0001. whether there was any
surplus or not. This was the cause of all the complication; and
while such absurdity was continued, complication and confusion
would be resorted to. The sale of Dead Weight to the Bank was
also the..source of complication of accounts, as well fir of lose to the
public, but that would end with the present year, as the Bank
, would make their last payment on that account in July next.
Sir JOHN WHOTTESLEY said that had the ba-
lance sheet in the hands of Members been correctly made our,
instead of a surplus of 1,700,0001. there would be a deficiency. The
Sinking Fund of last year was made up of an issue of Exchequer
bills, and a loan from the Bank, ou account of that absurd scheme,
the sale to the Bank of what was called the Dead Weight.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the Hon. Gentleman
would have an opportunity of addressing himself to the question of
the Sinking Fund In the Finance Committee, which would shortly
be propooed to the House. The question of the number of seamen
4t to be smploycdfor the defence and securitpufthe country would
then equalif befit to be discUssed. His Right Hen, and Conant
Friend (Sir G. Cockburn) had stated reasons for the. Increase of the
naval defence of the country. Respecting the Treaty to which hie
Hen. Fritod (Mo. blaketly) had alluded (the Greek treaty) when-
ever it should be cilleckinto questioq, he *wild Jae prepared to Ale.
fend it op the groptlds of international law, the 4401 10 whisji

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