Star.
London, England, 1817-08-15 00:00:00

!1

may the evils of society and the pram distresses
of the country, he could not but regard him; but, in
respect to the proposition he held out as a universal
care. t e c net but consider him as a ;:sionary.
Again stepped forward, a;.d after hay- I
jog wailed short time until the tumult was abated,
_aid tiTat the Gentleman who had last addressed the.
Meeting had entered so minutely into the question,
and had so well rel uted the visionary schemes of the
Gentler:lmi who had spoken first in the debate, that
he had little left to say. He was hini.clf a practical
man, and had had 23 years' experience, and possesed
an intimate knowledge of the situation of the poor of
the country. Having been bred a farmer, in know-
ledge upon agricultural subjects he yielded to nu
man. He assured the Meeting that tar pl in which
had been proposed was, when examined, wild and
visionary. The whole proceeded upon an error as to
the cause of the pauperism of toe country. Mr.
Johnson's plan of raising m-ney was thought to be
most advantageous for the ptirrose of carrying this
scheme into execution. It was nothing more or less
than this—that the sum of £lbo,ooo should be ad-
vanced by Government, and one hundred Gentle-
men were to give security for it. But where was this
money to be obtained ? Out of the pockets of the
starving people. He agreed that something ought
to he done, hut a false basis had been formed; and the
true cause of the distresses was forgotten. A Com-
mittee indeed was proposed to be formed of all the
Archbisbips and Ministers in the country : he
thought. to cut the matter short.. the whole of the
Members of Parliament should have been nominated.
He then entered upon certain calculations he had
made, in order to .hew the true cause of the evil
which now existed to so alarming an extent. [Here
Mr. Hunt was again interrupted by the clamour of
the Meeting.]
The CMAINMAN. --Gentlemen, you observe Mr.
Hunt's patience and his capacity ; you must, how-
ever, preserve order and decency.
Mr. HUNT proceeded to state the rnann-r in wh;ch
paup• risni had increased in a patio in the county of
Wilts, in which he had resided for a great portion of
his lee. In this pariah the population was 660 per-
sons, and it had dimloished or increased but in a very
small degree. Of these, 240 were farmers and trades-
men ; YOU were labostrets, and there were 220 la-
bourers, tradesmen, and farmers, dependent upon the
parislrfor support. In 1780, the :cumber of paupers
in this parish was 55 or 56, and it. was now increased
to 2xo. In 1780, the principal farm in this parish
let for iblitet a year; that faun now let for F 1260.
In 1780, the labourer received Gs. per week for his
labour, and bread was 6d. the qoartern loaf. Now,
the labourer received only !Os. .per week, and the
quartern leaf was Is. 6d. During this period land ,
had risen 300 per cent. and wages had only risen 50
per cent. Thu was the case, no; billy in this parish,'
' bit in every parish is the country. These Were the
evils to be remedied. Would Mr. Owen's plan over-
come them ? Would it sink the rental of that farm
to £4OO per annum ? Would it reduce the price of
bread to fid. the quarteru loal ? Or would it raise
the wages in proportion to the rise iu the price of
corn ? One of the causes of distress, he (Mr. Hunt)
had before stated, was the existence of Sinecure
Places—(Of eff).
'fhe CHAMIAN observed, that the introduction of
politics was a useless waste of time.
Mr.-Huai continued.—ln another parish, in Wilt.
shire, • great portion of the corn of the country was
actually destroyed by the unnecessary preservation of
game. There .500 acres of wheat were grown, and
.the land would yield eight sick' per acre; but in
consequence of the very grew quantities of hares
which were preserved, the' landlord always made an
allowance to his tenants of two sacks per acre. It Mae
therefore evident, that' in this parish 1000 sacks of
wheat were annually destroyed by useless animals.
Atter having stated that the land in the kingdom was
not half cultivated, through the enormous burden of
the Poor-rates, he concluded with moving an amend.
=eat to the following effect
" That pauperism Is increased in an equal sad progressive pro-
portion with the increase of mutton.
"'('bat eseessive taxation is the cause of the prom slegmlnll
and distieSsing pauperism.
.1* .1 hat, therefore, to remove or k4sen taxationSpeigd
mem of the evil, is the only sum wad 'Masai mesas
.PP4Pgrian•"
WOll.llll felt as disposed as any gentleman in
that meeting to keep the objects of discussion un-
mixed by any political feeling ; but though willing to
avoid any thing like political asperity, he felt the dif-
fleshy -of separating altogether questions of political
economy ftorn considerations of political practice. It
was also impossible, in his apprehensi-in, in seeking
the remedy for acknowledged public distress, not to
glance at, though it might not be the proper occasion
of discussing, the causes of that distress. It was now
at length universally acknowledged, that the exist-
ing system under which the country laboured, had
reached its limit of sufferance. All agree that some-
thing must be done—that the course hitherto parr.
toed was fully tried, and had failed—and that some
expedient in the shape of amelioration must be
promptly adopted—(Near, hear.) He was ready to
acquiesce in the opinion that all political experiments
were dangerous—but the true question under existing
circumstances was, whether a greater danger was not
likely to result, from not meeting by adequate cor-
rectives the evils that now affected the community,
and which, unless ameliorated, must lead to confu-
sion and ruin ? ' He felt the most sincere respect for
the motives and public spirit of Mr. Owen. He
thought the country much indebted to him for bring-
lag before it fairly the true view of its actual situa-
tion, but lie still trust contend that the plan he propo-
sed as his remedy was inadequate in some points, and
likely to injure in more material considerations.—
In the first introduction of the poor laws, something
like the present plan was aimed at, and what was then
theoretically contemplated as a good, had, in the re-
sult, been productive of incalculable evil. It was
then hoped to guard against the increase of mendi-
city, by enacting that every parish should number its
own poor, under the persuasion that the officers who
superintended such concerns would take the due
means of protecting parishes from being imposed
upon by false pretences. Had they equally mita-
Toured to enact provisions by which work was to be
found fur those witless to labour, far different results
would have beets experienced. But, as he said be-
t fore, appalling as the distress of the present times
were, he could net assent to the remedy proposed by
Owen. He could not but shudder at the suppo-

lien of ca'ttly considering stick est sblishments, even
to the number of twenty, as was stated in a former
part of the discussion, where men were to be thus
cqnereeated in the capacity of hired paupers—(lfearj
Did this plan contemplate further ? Was it meant t
condemn all who sought relief (roll momentary sof•
tering—to fix them, by a species of substitution for
the tendal system, to the soil for ever ? WAS it to be
forgotten that in society rightly constituted, the poor
man had as great a right to his labour as the rich to
his property, for to the poor ni..n his labour was pro.
perry ; and therefore that system was radically bad.
where the people, both able and willing to work.
were, from the want of employment, I.`t in a state
of start atiow ? Why this want of employment ne•
curred—what were the causes of this evil-where were 11
too many men not disposed to consider. But such
disinctinattun yeas ruinous ; for the cause, the tree
and undeni 'hie cause, presented itself a: a black pro.
rninence, to avail which men might shut their eyes
indeed, but only at the expense of running their
heads against it—(Hear, hear).—No remedy.othen,
could be efficient, but that which p assessed the power
of controul over such causes—(!dear, bear)—which
could prevent their repetit;un, and w !s efficacious
enough to eradicate their influence—(llear. hear).—
The present plan was at best but an expedient, even
if unattended with danger wholly inadequate, but
which he could not but consider as calculated to re.
move evil partially, at the expense of ultimate ruin.
Was it possible that men could be blind to that ulti •
mate ruin ? These allotted villages were su ised to
provide for a million of people. The consumption of
that million was then to be withdrawn from the pro-
fits of society. Was this no evil ? Was it not un-
deniable, that every man who consumed and laboured
conferred a benefit on society ? Yet of that benefit
this plan, called an amelioration of distress, went to
deprive the country. The society of nations vim•
sifted of a great and comprehensive chain, the links
of which were bound and binding, but whose con-
tinued conitection were necessary to produce the great
and general design. He feared also, that it was of
the nature of such systems to produce general indo-
lence as the result. The security of the means of
subsistence was apt to.destroy the energies of human
action; and while on that part of the subject, he never
would subscribe to the picture of the demoralisation
of what was called the lower classes of society which
the address of Mr. Owen presumed. Granted that
crimes. the effect of want and misery, occur. Yet
Ire would call upon the"l to compare this supposed
immorality with the conduct of those in the higher,
nay in the highest rank of the State, and set where
the greater crime prevailed?—(Hear, hear.) The
majority of virtues at all event, he would contend,'
remained with the humbler classes of the people.
Where distress raged with such inveterate violence,
weighed down as they were with an almost intolerable
pressure, the admiration was, how so 'natty virtues
and honest qualities were still prevalent amongst them.
Shall we then, who by accident are alittle in worldly
acquisition raised above them, look- with such an eye
of severity at the results of their wretchedness ? Was
this the return they had a right to expect 1 Have
we not heard it admitted that the patience and loyalty,
and devotion of the people of this country, during the
sanguinary waeauf the last 25 years. was exemplary.
who was it that evinced this patience and devoti.n
whe has telt.the pressure of its results, and are now
:wens under hi consequences ?—those very lower
classes, now the object of gratuit sus reproach !
(Hear, hear.) It was pue crimes have been frequently
consmi ted—the law was found operative tor their
correction ; but. it WAS an.assuaiption wholly unjust
to assert that the body of the people of this country
was demoralized. It was beside objectionable to the
plan that it went to increase the calls upon the pecu.
niary difficulties of the nation. That could not be
considered a reduction of expense which was to be
effected by fresh expenses. It reaembltd the in-
fluence of the Sinking Fund in the payment of the
National Debt, where we borroWed at an increased
loss with one hand, to pay with the other. (Hear.),
On the whole, the plan appeared founded on the
overthrow of all those proud feelings of silt-reliance
and estimation which io a sound and healthy state of
things constitute the support of free States. It you
would upheld the pre-eminent distinctions of your
country, continue to support that character by which
they were won, and by which alone they tan be
maintained. On these grounds, he should feel it his
duty to second the _Resolutions proposed as an
amendment. . .
Sir Ittertasn &rut. coincided in the objections ad-
duced against the practicability of Mr. Owen's plan.
and thought that he who ventured to attack without
hesitation all the preconceived opinions of mankind,
could not feel hurt at such decided objections to his
theory, willing as he (Sir Richard) was to admit
that Mr. Owen was actuated by the purest and most
praiseworthy motives.
Dr. WALKER (one of the Society of Friends) said
he feared the plan was impracticable. He could not,
however, admit the fears which other persons in-
dulged in, of an mess in population, as we generally
connived in this country, with wars and other means,
to dispose of thefisands ; at all events, let social hap-
piness be not invaded until the evil was likely to ap-
proach. Let the rational being not be checked pre-
maturely; and if the excess occur, let the race of
quadrupeds give way—(char. hear.)
Mr. WAtrustam observed, that trom what had
been already urged, and.from the lateness of the hour,
he did not feel either the necessity or the inclination
long to trespass upon the attention of the Meeting.
although had be had an opportunity of presenting
himselt to its notice at an earlier period of the discus.
lion, he timid have thought it his duty to enter at
some length into the merits of this interesting ques-
tion. With the opinions of two Gentlemen who had
ably addressed the Meeting, he concurred in many
points, regretting only, that they had omitted to
ground those opinions 'upon the broad *lonal
grounds which operated in his mind. When he came
to the Meeting, in consequence of the public adver-
tisement by which it was collected, he expected to
hear the plan of Mr. Owen fully stated and referred]
to the examination of a Committee, but he was sur-
prised to hear nothing of definition or detail; but
vague and general description of something extraor-
dinary that was to be expected from the construction
of certain distinct societiessylor the establishment of
eich of which a subscription mutt be collected of no
less than rBIOO,OOR He could, however, compre-
hend enough of the principle of this project, to feel

that it was radically objectionable, and in opposition to
thetighest interestsof soeiety,as well as to the best pas-
sions of the human heart. He could not there, re, con.
sistently A ! %Via to such a principle, or pronounce the
gent, r.l I Id,ment of m ink..id, .0 which it WAS host,le,
so err., ilb.4li the ignitor of the plan professed to think.
He hoped, indeed, that the Meeting would pause be-
t ,re it subscribed to the doctrine, that the wisdom of
our ancestors was deserving of contempt, and that no
existine sys'rm of political economy was entitled 1.,
respect, when opposed to the plan under discussion.
to saying this he wished to be distinctly understood,
tor he had the highest regard and deference for Mr.
Owen. He concurred, indeed, most cordially in
every panegyric that had been pronounced upon the
character of that very meritorious individual. He
agreed with that Gentleman that pauperism had
most lamentably increased in this country, but that
pauperism was not owing to the want of public in-
struction, but to the want of employment. Tile in-
crease of crime, too, was owing to the same cause;
but what was the cause of all this evil ? for that
was a question to which men most inevitably come,
and the answer WAS obvious. He did not wish to
obtrude colitics up-in the Meeting, but it was eel.
dently impossible to separate politics from the object
it was convened to consider, or to shut our eyes to
the conviction that the great augmentation of distress
and crime which we had at present to deplore was
mainly owing to the great increase of Taxation
(Hear, hear, hear). The plan of Mr. Owen was,
no doubt, the fruit of a benevolent heart,. although,•
in his view, of a mistaken mind. He (Mr. Waith-
man) himself had brought forward a plan for the
Relief of the Poor about seventeen years ego, in
support of which be published a Pamphlet.—
This plan was to promote the incli,ture of common
lands, with a view, as he meant, to benefit the poor.
But what was the consequence In unJ case which
came within his knowledge, in his own neighbour-'
hood, about two thousand acres of common were
soon afterwards indosed, but not one inch of this
ground was given to the poor. For the portion of
the common to which every poor man was entitled,
was bought up for about twelve or thirteen pounds,,
and the whole fell into the handa.ot the great Lind.
owners. Thus the object of his plan was defeated,
and the cottager was not put in possession of that
little garden, which it was so very desirable that
every cottager should hold for the growth of vegeta.
bles to assist in the subsistence of his family. Of the
comforts derivable from such a possession, he saw art
impressive example in Staffordshire, which he had
. .

lately visited. There the cottager, having a garden
to cultivate, occupied himself in that cultivation, in-
stead of resorting to the ale-house; and such, he be-
lieved, would be the consequence elsewhere, if every
cottager were in possession e't a garden. Could it,
then, in those circumstances, be matter of astonish-
ment that a poor cottager, who had no ground him-
self upon which to grow a turnip, should take a lea
turnips out of the field of a rich neighbour ? Could that
neighbour himself, or the public, be angry at such ais
act ? But then the misfortune was, that when the cot-
tager thus acted, when once the moral boundary was
broken, indifference to morality, and introduction to
great crimes, was too likely to ensue. This, how-
ever, was the natural fruit of a vicious system. Bet
the ohjece,if Mr. Owen was to ameliorate the condi-
tion' and character (*society. Could, however, such
lt result be looked for from the adegiun of a plan
which proposed to isolate a great body of the people
exclude them from all the prizes which were
held out to society at large to excite to exertion and
industry ? Could any good consequences be expected
from a plan which would operate to suppress the best
motives of human action, and to extinguish the
warmest feelings of the human heart, by shutting up
the people in barracks—(Wear, hear) All that had
been stated of this plan was exceptiinahle in the
highes: degree. We were told that each society to be
created by it. was to consist of 1200 persons, each
el whom was to be allowed an acre or ground ; that
the whole were to have but one kitchen, and that pa-
rents were not to have the care of their own children.
Thus the best dispositions and the universal duty of
man were to be dispensed with or dissolved, and the
children of the pear provided for from the public fund.
That some parents telt inclined so to provide for their
children, was; no doubt, a melancholy tact, and that
such an 'estimation did not belong to the poor 'so
much as to the rich. was unfortunately too notori-
ous. Wear, hear. ) This, indeed, was manifest. from
a case which he some tinie ago felt it his duty to
bring before the public, where public schools institu-
ted for the benefit of the poor, were found to be prin-
cipally occupied by the children of men of high rank
—by the children of Noblemen and Gentlemen.
(Near, hear.) He recollected that when this case was
brought before the Court of Chancery, an advocate
on the other side observed, that those schools were
become too goof for the po rr. Sit Samuel Rornilly
very properly observed, that the question was. not
whether such schools were become too good for the
poor, but whether they actually belonged to them, ad-
ding, that the poor were as much entitled to the en-
joyment of their property as the rich. But such should
be the language on all occasions, for the poor
should always be encouraged to asset their rights.--
That encouragement, however. could nut exist, it the
people were deprived of their manly spirit and love o
indepmdence, and that was the tendency of the plan
under consideration. Unhappily the system of the
Poor Laws had dune much mischief iu this respect
already, as he had himself witnessed. The inciease
of pauperism accounted for this degradation of the
spirit which once distinguished Englishmen. We had
at present, it was known, no less than two millions
out of the ten of which our population consisted, sup-
ported by the Poor's rate. There was anett,er great
cause of regret in this country, namely, that while
numbers of men in the vigour of life were destitute
of employment. ,ehildren of a tender age were coo-.
polled-to work From twelve to thirteen hours a day,•
and thus so many miss able spectacles of eshausteil
youth were to be found in England. This was an
evil of such magnitude as to call loudly for some
legislative enactment to prevent its continuance ur ex-
tension; and this enactment should apply also to the
case of female children, several of whom, apprenticed
to fancy dresai-mekers. were often compelled to
work until .six o'clock on Sunday morning, in or•
der to furnish dresses for the rich and the vain, a,
.11,011 as to gratify the avarice of their employers.—
But, to return to the plan of Mr. given—if that gen.
tleman would fully state his views, and refer them te