Star.
London, England, 1820-10-31 00:00:00

',Ms •

• t
Ost'she mead= blurt them, the only
t whisk she Coursed for bee Mitesty had aright to
it Lordships, namely, whetker they would pleceed
reading of this Bill of -pains and renittles?--Ise
to them they•eould not robs llipt evidence, oval
Courts below might rob* I. Melee it. He IM
net the Courts below soda refuse to receive it. al&
granting that technical rules might shut out the evidence be ten-
dered from inferior Courts, it was the impexatlve duty of their-
Lordships to receive it. Ibisl was not the trial of an limn—
it was not case between two ordinary persons, to be de-
cided according to the rules of common law. Would to des
it were !- If it were, then would he prevail—then would the
innocence of. her Majesty prevail, and the verdict of the
Jury would soon re-echo the verdict arnady announced by the
country. Would their Lordships proceed on this extraordinary
measure—this Bill of rains and Penalties—tide a post facts
law, intended to ruin an individual, under the pretence of State
necessity, hardly alluded to, and never fully stated, but which
was, in fact, a measure of State convenience, for the convenience
of a party acting from interested motives, against the law and
the Constitution? Would their Lordships proceed on that meat-
mire, 'Whilst they refused evidence so important as that which
he tendered at their Bar?
The Arnismatt-Gnessat said, he had but one observation to
make. fRo learned Friend again availed himself of that op-
portunity which he woe always so anxious to avail himself of,
namely, to make- sts idioms to their Lordships. Instead of
doing so, be ought to havetenlined himself to the question, whe-
ther the evidence be tendered was admissible or not? His
Learned Friend had recourse to AN sill teoc, namely, that they
were not bound by the rules of Courts of laiwiand from that he
inferred that their Lordships were bound to receive what evi-
dence:he might chose to tender, because he thought et to add
that it was most material to her Majesty's case. His
Friend would have their Lordships believe, that in the cue
them they were bound to no rules and limited to no discretidh.
* felt no alarm as to the evidence whith his Ltaraed Friend
sought to produce; but if their Lordships intended to adhereto
a rail which they had in the first instance established, and upon
which they had proceeded, his Learned Friend had laid no ground
whatever for putting these letters in in evidence ; and notwith-
standing the assertions of his Learned Vriond in reference to the
evidence, the evidence itself did not bear him out. The time
and the manner of producing the evidence, was of a piece with.
the conduct which his Learned Friend had observed through-
out the investigation: when closely pressed h, always -bad re 7
eouree to a contrivance, be dwelt on other incidents as if mate.;
daily bearing on the point before them. He (the Attarney-Ge:'
neral) would contend, that the evidence now tendered at their
Lordships bar, was evidence which they could not receive, and
which, even if they had received, could not bear upon their ulti-
mate judgment. With respect to De Mont and Hieroaimus, all
be could say was, that though they were named by his
Friend, though he declared that he would proditee them, it new
turned out that he was afraid to call them.
Mr. BROUGHAM attempted to reply, but he was called to order
by the House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that the regular mode
of pece,:eding in the coons of Law was this, drat after Counsel
had spoken on the whole evidence. oh both sides, no further
reply was allowed, unless on matter of cases eked at either side,
there undoubtedly a reply was permitted, but only as to that point;
their Lordships must have seen from what hid actually passed
before them that day, how important it was to adhere to that
rule. Ile could say, having been bred to the profession of the
law, that for forty-five years of experience, he did not recollect
any instance in which that rule had been rigidly observed; it
was the constant, thotigh certainly the improper course, to Intro-
duce comments and observations which it was not easy to sup-
press; but that the principles on which judicial men acted, ren-
dered these observations of little value. He could atom their
lordships, that judicial men paid no attention whatever to any
ahak observations—(A feeek).—He thought that by the rules of
law they could not admit the evidence now cared.

The Earl of CARNARVON said, that with respect to the
jadpnent of the Courts below, he woeld not now stop to consider
what evidence they would receive or reject, but he thought their
Lordships stood in a situation different from the Court, below,
and different from all other tribunals ; and he thought that what
they bad to consider was the simple naked question, did the evi-
dence now offered beer upon the case ; did they think it of im-
portance to the great and important cause ?—.lf they did, how
could they for one iustant reject it ; or rejecting it, hew could
they talk of even-handed justice? What was the character of!
the proceeding before them ; what was its origin ; who were
its instruments?' Was it an English or a German proceeding
( Hear, hear)—The Noble Earl opposite (Lord Liverpool) had,
on a former day, boldly stept forward and avowed that he ryas
responsible far the measure,. that he was the author of the DilL
In the course of the proceeding of that day, it was pretty mi.
dent that mixed up with this proceviling there was much Get-
nun agency; there appeared about it the active interference of
the ilinistrr of the King of Hanover, who was also the Save-.
reign of this country. Agents—foreign, corrupt, and irrespen.
sibk agents have been employed; they had been employed to cor-
rupt and suborn witnesses on one aide, and to tamper with the
witnesses for her Majesty. These fasts stared them in the face.
Were they true ? if not let them be inquired into. lint would
any Noble Lord vote for this extraordinary Bill without ascer-
taining the truth of those charges—without satisfying himself
whether this vicious agency had been employed or not? He
-was astonished at these proceedings; he would wish to know
whether they sat there as the Peers of England, or the mise-
rable instruments of the Government of Hanover ?—(Chters).—
If the Ministers intended to press the Lift through the House
he was convinced they could hot do their duty without silting
this suspicioth affair to the bottom---(Ulcers).—As a British
House of Parliament, if they proceeded ace step further in the
inquiry, without receiving all the evidence that they could re
crier 013 this head, they would not do their duty to the country,
nor to themselves--(Ther, hear).
The Duke of HAXILTON was glad of an opportunity of
declaring his sent' is on this subject. He would not enter
into any of the technisal difficulties with which the (panties
might be surrounded ; he only wished for matter of fact, and for
the eliciting of truth. If there was any particular point whkh.,
had been sedulously kept out of sight in this inquiry, it was
the conduct of those who composed the Milan Commission.
The Noble Earl opposite (I,,iverpool) had declared, on his own
part, and on that of his Majesty's Ministers, that they had
given no authority in this business to any foreign Minister.—
This was a Dill of Pains and Penalties, and as such be would
enter his protest against ft, since it was extra-coastits-
dorsal, and totally unnecessary. If, thee, their Lordships
wished to discover the troth, they must not be bound by tech-
nil:slides, or forced analogies. To do justice in the present
ease, 'their Lordships- must receive the letters. This was his
firm conviction, and he would take the sense of the House upon
it. The Noble Duke concluded by moving " That the letters
be received as evidence."
Earl GREY agreed with his Noble Friend as to everything
that he had said against a Bill of Pains and Penalties, a mea-
sure only to by resorted to in cases of the greatest necessity,
and where the ordinary modes of proceeding did not applt.
'That no such case existed in the present instance, he (Earl
Crey) had declared before these proceedings eionsmeneed.
Their Lordships had unfortunately thought otherwise, and having
agreed to proceed by a 13111 of Pains and Penalties, between 40
and 50 days had been engaged in hearing the evidence on both
sides. At the commencement it was agreed, that although their
Lordships were not fettered by the rules of law, yet that their pro-
ceedings should be regulated by these rules as meek as possible.
On this principle they had hitherto proceeded; and the question
now was, whether, in the last stage of the proceeding, they
stiotfid abandon it? lit agreed with the Learned Lord en the
Woolsack, that according to the rules of law the letters could
not be received. Were/hey, then, of sufficient importance to
induce their Lordships to deviate from those mks? Ins Noble.
Friend had said, the Conspiracy should be enquired into. He'
agreed with hint, but this was not the time. Un these grounds
he should vote against the motion.
The Earl of CA RNA RYON said, their Lordships sat there
not as Judges merely, but as Legislators. He was ready to ad-
mit that they ought, as much as possible, to adhere to the rake
of evidence as followed in the Courts below ; but when they
assumed the station of a Legislative Body, the object of their
inquiry ought to be, in the first place, to promote the of
truth and justice. To this great object every inferior c
lion ought to yield. 'llse question before them was not a kali.'
ad, but a legidatjaspisesure, and on this ground their Lord-
ships were bound -Waft whether the evidence had come fairly
betore them, or disether attempts bad been Made.-.whether
carrupt and miserable arts had been employed to suborn that
evidence and to pervert the ends of justice ? In his opinion,
their Lordships were not bound down by the technical, vulgar
rules of law ; the spirit of exalted justice alone should ;aide
their proceedings.rrocceditip iq COW'. of 444 Wis ordinary

THE EVENING STAR.

LONDON.

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1820.
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s

• eases .
bolt,* fain, ioltialion whatever tetbepsOsee&igituff9o. fiat the soineicka could simultaneously arise in the
tittens.yot, if they decided that those eight to be Is
minds of all the parties who concurred in the measore ;
vridwiter then he would apply the iulei of taw to
, detail floe would, for instance, have those lent** and the coming at the knowledge of the fact to
lauthenticated as they should be, if offered in a Court of w which this question applies, would furnish more
come be would take care that no fraud, no itiaposition should be . .
misted (none indeed could be apprehended), bat having those complete evidence, as to the origin of the conspiracy,
lidtuments once authenticated, and feelieg that they were of hr. that has been produced to fix guilt on her
portanne.b, the deeisice of the ewe, he did not think that their 1 than any
Lordships would perform their duty as Legialatan if they ha. -MAIISTY; for it might rationally be inferred, that
toed to receive those letters—if they hesitated to probe this the calumaies were circulated to lead to the appoint-
miserable conspiracy to the bottom. The natural principles of
justice required it; the circumstances of the ease before them mint of such.a Commission.
for it. Would they appear before the country anxious to In ate third place, as the very appointment of the
sae inquiry, where itiquily was so ,—where k was so
lewdly, so anxiously called for by an abused complaining party ? Commission implies the previous appointment of
Would their Lordships wish to appear anxious to stratithen the emissaries, by some person or persons, we ask, Were
merciless band of power, extended as it was re injure and op-
press? The maritime they had of the measure, nataeally led thew emissaries klanoverians or British ? If WTl-
them to resist it ; in his °pinkie, they would forget tb.:ir duty— •
verians, why was not the whole of this filthy job
if, in the eyes of the country—of she world, they should shrink
from an inquiry called for by the party, and *misery to the at. transferred to Hanover ? Were there no Ministers -
tainmeet of justice. If they penned a different course, they in that counts- y- willing to undertake such a business
would not de justice to the people or to themselves. Under „-
these impreetions, he certainly would vote for the moth* of his for the gratification of his HANOVERIAN MAJESTY,
Noble Friend. • that the Ministers of the KING of ENOT.AND should
Earl GROSVENOR was of opinion, that as the exami-
nation into the conspiracy was net allowed; they Would ant be subjected to such a humiliating and responsibli
go into that partial view of which the lett'''. l'iashl serviee? Or, were the Hanoverian Ministers spared,
afford.
. Lord HOLLAND said that be fekkinasetf exhausted nada only to save the money of the needful Hanoverian?
this inquiry; patience and susngth fell down before it ;he na- Udtess History lies, the Court of Hanover has been
turally felt reluctant to enter into a new field of inquiry, unless
to him that inquiry should appear necessary. It did not appear before accustomed to " deeds' of darkne,s," and with
io; his mind was already made op ; he wanted no further e_vi- the same terror of publicity, which the HanDverjau,
dent of conspiracy on the one side, or of elbworeoo en the
Other. Tile reason which would incluse him to give Ms vote on party in the present proceedings evince to keep them-
the titer* l'rethitt' wouldstate t°lltairls`rtishiPa ;4 "di selves out of sight. ,Who, for example,lWas the mu-
give great satisictits told' mind, if be found that the same
reason would indueeothetv not or ethnic the widows mimeo. deter of Coont Kano:immix, whose body; after many
dered to the Home. reason wasted' "11aaelle Its dater-1 years concealment, was found by our GEORGE IL.
mined to vote against the BSl—gaud dirsral,-11a would vote
against that odious measure os pried*u which bad beets al.. under the floor of a dressing-room in the Electoral
ready stated to the House,and which he would not repeat. Mk palace ? -
was tit reason for objecting to any further evidesee, he did not
want it, be saw no necessity for it, bat there might be others Among other anomalies of the QUEEN'S case, it
who took a differettt view of the question, and of tun he would may be considered very singular that the whole plot
my, that no impartial, no humane or lamest man, who might
be disposed to vote for the Bill, unless be was prepared to sift against her MAJESTY has been so managed as to
and eland= all the circumstances of this conspiracy to the bot- ~make it extremely difficult, if not absolutely impose
tom, whether a was a responsible or an irresponsible agent that
had been employed ?—whether it was the act of the Hanoverian sible, fog legal ingenuity to discover how the parties
or the English Government? it was worthy of iniryin the opi- concerned can be tried and brought to justice; but it
Dien of these who were disposed, if any were disposed, to vote
for this Bill of Pains and Penalties ; for what rook be morello. so happens that one part of the plan was so managed
just, whatoore absurd, than to say, we win pan the Bill—we as to bring certain individuals, who were extremely
will decide on the merits of the ease—end having disposed of it
then we will turn round to see whether a conspiracy to ethers; active in giving currency to the lies invented against
witnesses ever existed, or had ever been
.prosecuted? No. her-MAJESTY, within the reach of legal responsibility.
To thole who were disposed to favour the BA he would say, ‘
as you value your characters, look into the nature of this dm. The fabricators of falsehood were not content with
'piracy, sift and examine it even to the bottom. For his Own giving their calumnies as wide a circulation as possible
part, he wanted so such Inquiry—he disliked it. He should be
sorry to sit in that House to examine the ace and conduct of the on the Continent ; but, under the feigned disguise of
Hanoverian Ministers, after having examined the e°o4net of Ott Exu-ages from private letters," actually gave them
her Majesty. • He was prepared to vote against the DIU on ,
con-
scientasious, well as constitutional principles; to him, there- circuiation in certain London Newspapers. Now
fore, the case was plain ; but to those who differed with him be here is a clue that may, and ought to be laid hold of.
would say, they were bound unfitly to investigate the matter—
they were bound to see whether fair or foul memo had been :raffia Jotarnalists, knowing how the wind blew at
made use of le procuring what was called evidence for the Bill—
Court, thought they mighs, with impunity, say any-
(Load ekeersjs—He wanted no Inquiry—his mind was satisfied— .
wished to get rid of the Bill, therefore he voted against the thing against the then Princess of Wat. Es—now
motion—filter, Ater.)
Bible
CONSORT of ENGLAND ; but now, it is poo•
The Marquis of LA NSDOWN was against receiving the .
letters; he thought it desirable that the conspiracy should be they may be made to render some account of
investigated, but he did not think grounds bad been shewn fur thine evil doings.
deviating from the rules to which their Lordships-bad hitherto
adhead. It had been declared, that evidence of a conspire/
omsll;espec.buttiangot thsoemre,
vtheceticagoursteheis
Milanancdoinombviis.-
should not be enquired into, and also (he put it hypothetically
that they should exclude all evidence of a counter-coacy. .
The adhering to the rules of law had some incouveniesiee, mom Can the Commissioners be proceeded against
by* impeachment? Who is to. impeach themSr.‘ansi
but it was the inconvenience which attached to the whole of
these proceedings; and he trusted, when their Lordships came
to decide, that the Illustrious Personage would have the be• with what hope of carrying the measure ? .But sup-*
refit of it. • pose the measure cartied: then they will plead' the
The House then divided en the Dike of HAMMON'S Mo-
tion, When the numbers were : *arrant froth the QUEEN'S husband ; and it is not to,
Contests if—Moe-Contents 14S— be doubted that their agents (Rasielli and Co.), who
Majority against the fibula, 129.
It being Foul &Clock, that Lordships adjourned till Thew haw abused the authority of such honourable mu,
day nest.

and if brought in a lower Court, the same warrrant
mmt would be pleaded in bar of the action. •
_Can Ministers, as the advisers of the appointment
elbe Han Commission be tried as the originators
Odle eoespleacy ? If so, in svbat Court ?....kf pessi-
bk, in the Coast of King's Bench.; for only in such
a court Cimunomalies be avoided, and only in such
a_Court ems the Jury, as regaired by the Laws, of
England, be vdlad gra for au Unanimous verdict !
The case >the Quests and the replies of the
Counsel for the Bill havingleen closed, it is very
natural to ask, How stands the prosecution new?—
It is admitted -onall bands, that the Counsel for the
prosecution did• everything in their power, with such
materialsns they had, to make out their case against
her MAJESTY, and that 4,n their parts there has been
,nn lack of industry : but it is not generally allowed,
great as have been the exertions of the Counsel ibr the
Ignites:, that they have made the most of their materials.
They have established, beyond the possibility of its
being doubted, the existence of a conspiracy against
ber MAJESTY ; and ii is also generally admitted, that
they:ha-re proved that the testimony of the Italian
and German witnesses for the prosecution is unwor-
thy of credit : but, it is contended, by many of the
friends of her MAJESTY, that having, in their open-
ing, and in their cross-examination of these witnesses,
alluded to other evidence calculated to establish still
more the perjury of these reptiles; they ought to have
produced that evidence—while, on the other hand, it
is contended, that any provable proposition being once
demonstrated, cannot be rendered more trpe by fol-
lowing out twenty different modes of demonstration.
Itt the meantime it is reported, bow truly we cannot
say, that her MAJESTY means to go in person en
Ilhursday to the House of Lords, and to lay upon
the table, with her own hands, a paper supplying
itertain points which her Counsel had hesitated to
iiroduce. When it is recollected that her MAJESTY
*as before, without the advice of Counsel, ad-
-dressed-the KING, in a letter that has been pub-
ished, this rumour may appear very credible.—
lindied hit MAJESTY, upon her own responsibility.
may adopt Measures which Counsel would hardly
venture to do. Suppose, for example, her MAJESTY
should think it proper to protest against certain well
known Members of the House, by name, voting upon
this Bill, it may easily be imagined that, with the
nerve she has sheih; she could - urge motives for
having their voice rejected, .which Counsel might be
puzhled how to adduce. May the Act say to some