Star.
London, England, 1819-02-19 00:00:00

STATE OF THE PRISONS.

Estimates
printed.

Mr. CLIVE presented certain Papers and Returns
relative to the number of Prisoners confined for cri-
minal offences, &c.

Lord CASTLEREAGH gave notice, that on Tues-
daynext he intended to submit to the House me-
Lion for an irquiry into the State of the Prisons
throughout the Kingdom.
Sir JAMES :4ACXINTOSH said that it was 4
very short notice, from Thursday to Tuesday, for
bringing before the House a question of such impor-
tance, and hoped the Noble Lord would fix some
more distant day than Tuesday.
Lord CASTLE.REAGII expressed every disposi-
tion to accommodate the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, and therefore named Thursday next.
The Notice was then entered as for that day.

COPY• maul..

Mr. LAMBTON gave notice, that on the 11th of
March he intended to submit to the House a motion
on the subject of Copy-rights.

ILAVE

'BADE.

the unportatton a twain Morn.—taau, 444 V. YG•a...v ••••
table. " SLAVE TRADE.
Lord PA I.MRIUITON presented an abstract of the Army Mr. SMYTH rose to move an Address to the Prince' I
Ratisnatei for thisyser..—Ordered to lie on the tables and to be . •
printed. • Regent, praying that there might be laid before the
MIRK ELECTION PL'TITIONS. House a copy of the Com v. akin with thiKing of tile
The CLERK of the Crows presented a Return of Netherlands, relative to the appointment of a Ccm-
the state of the Recognisautces to be entered into on • lois:atm to harry into effect :he abolition of the awe
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Trade, and an Account of the proceedings for cat-
ering that Convention into effect.
Lord CASTLEREAGH suggested to the Honour-
able Member, that as the discussion to-morrow would
lead to some explanations on that subject, it might
be desirable that this motion should be deferred, and
for the present alloweeto stand as a notice.
Mr. SMYTH conceived that what would be dis-
cussed to-morrow would not be exactly what related
to this motion.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said that this might be
true, yet it was very likely that the discussion would
lead to the consideration of other parts of .the trans-
action closely connected with this motion.
The motion was then entered as a notice.
• Mr. TIERNEY was surprised to hear the Noble
Lord's account of the nature of the discussion to be
expected oa the treaties to-morrow. From the notice
which the Noble Lord had given, it was true that
the Slave Vade might be included among other sub-
jects on which the consideration of the treaties might
excite discussion, but then it could be onlyby paren-
thesis, though it seemed there was now an intention
to make that parenthesis a very 1...ze one. To-morrow
then, they could only expect conversation on the trea-
ties. But the House would have more to do with
them than merely to converse. In some way or other,
;Genet or later, the 1-louse must come to a decision
upon them, though the Noble Lord seemed to have
no intention that they should do so to-mon new.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said-he had distinctly
given notice that he had not any particular motion
to submit to the House on the papers to which their
attention was to be called to-morrow. Many Mem-
bers might wish to ask questions relative to them,
and to these he would be happy to give any answer.
It it was wished at once to take the sense of the
House on any question connected with these papers,
certainly to-morrow would be an unnatural occasion
foe bringing forward any such question which miglu.
be thought rareessary. But at the same time, by
saying this, lie would not be considered as preclud-
ing !arm self from answering any question which might
to-morrow be put relatiye to them.
Mr.TIER NEYsaid,the drift ofthc Noble Lord's pro-
ceeding seemed to be like this—that whereas certain
treaties had been entered into, binding the country
to pay away certain laige sums of money, therefore
on those treaties he s% (I! I 1,1 take the opportunity of dis-
cussing the ::lave Ti..ide It was true the Noble
Lard had said that he did net intend to call upon'
the House to decide any question relative to those
treaties; but he could not help thinking that the
course which the Noble Lord was to pursue would
not be very convenient.

Dr. PHILLLMORE begged to know whether it
was intended to-borrow to bring on'a disculziou re-
lative to the Slave Trade?

No answer was returned tc this. %
GIRMAL CAR.

. Mr. TIERNEY wished to ask a question, merely
for the sake of information. At Gibraltar, be un-,
de.4scood, duties were levkd to defray certain charges
which they were more thavufficient to pay. There;
was, therefore, a large surplus, and he wished to,
know how this surplus was disposed of?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,'
he did not at that moment recollect any thing parti-
cular relative to the duties mentioned by the Right
Honourable Gentleman. Any surplus, of course,
belonged to the Crown, and was at its disposal.
Mr. TIERNEY—Under what authority was it
•collected ? And under what authority was it the ex-,
cbasive property of the Crown
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said.
he had never particularly inquired ; but he always
understood that the revenue collected at GibrZtar
was the property of the Crown.
ISTATII Or CONVICTS AND OF NEW SOUTH WALES.
Mr. BENNET rose to make his promised Motion
on this subject, with a view of instituting an inquiry
• into the treatmen) and condition of convicts sent to
. New South Wales ; and also into the state of that
Colony. lie began by taking notice of the inquiries
that had been made some years ago into the state of
. .prisons in this country, and the various plans recom-
mended by die Committees appointed for that pur-
.pose. • Among other recommendations, was one for
improving the state of the hulks, on board of which
• prisoners were confined. It was particuhuly mom-
mended, that a separate hulk should'be provided for
those convicts who were intended to be transported
to New South Wales ; but he was sorry to say that
such recommendation had nut been acted upon. It
appeared beat increased numbers of persons were
transported every year, and that although this pu-
nishment was, in point of severity, next to death,
they preferred it to any other punishment. Here the
Honourable Gentleman stated the numbers of con•
victs who had been sentenced to transpertation, and
put on board tile hulks during each of the three last
years ; in which number a g-,cat increase had taken
place in the last year. One great mischief belong:.
ing to the hulks was t'e total want of classification;
for young boys :And old offenders were mired toge-
ther in the same place ; but recently he understood
that the boys had been, through the vigilanze and
praiseworthy attention of Mr. Capper, put in a place
• separate from the rest. It was a shocking thing to
reflect, that human beings of tender years, whose'
minds were susceptible of all kinds of impressions,
should be suffered to be subjected to an indiscrimi—
nate mixture with old and hardened offenders. It
was shocking to think, when the expense of sending
convicts to New South Wales was so great (it being
abottt 5237 a head during the last year), that some
care was not taken respecting their morals and beha-
viour while on their passage. It was a common prac-
tice on board the transport ships fin- the women con-
victs to be taken as wives by the •sailors; and others
were selected by the Officers, _who kept them in a
AAe of prostitution during the passage. This was
done, although the very object of sending them
abroad was that of improving their morals. lie had
lately laid a Petition before the House respecting the
• state of one convict ship; and she then stated what
he himself bad seen, together with what he bad
:4 bid, and believed to be true. He might not have
been exact in some of his calculations; but he could
prove to the Noble Lord opposite, on the authority
of a surgeon, that in one ship, which carried out 200
convicts, there were no less than six of them Sleeping
. in one crib. These were situations in which no hu-
man beings should be placed. It had, indeed, been
said, that their condition on_ board was better than

•
that of soldiers conveyed in transports,
or sailors on
board of King's ships. But the condition of these
.
was very different. Indeed,
with regard to soldiers,
be bad asked Officers of the Army who had been
sent out on long expeditiions, how the soldiers were'
treated on their passage ? and he was assured by them
that it was impossible to conceive any thing equal to
the torment and suffering which they underwent; that
they were crammed down into close, narrow, and
He was assured, that during a. .
filthy places, and almost suffocated with noxious va-
pour.thewholbeltinimg7
aonfdthinedceconevnitctcsownvaes
gambling, without any
to idleness, in
been said, that when a man was condemned to trans-
rspaatsiseond,
attempt being made to give them instruction. It had
mental degradation.
species of bodily calamity and .
trans-
portation, he should be considered as subject to every
If such a doctrine as this was to be maintained, it
was time indeed to do away with the system altoge-
ther. He should now advert to the dolony of New
South Wales, and call the attention of the House to
the manner in which its affairs were conducted. He
had been informed that, in consequence of the nu-
'
ro mcus complaints that came from that part of the ;
world, a person with whom he had long been in the
'habit of friendship, was now on the point of being
sent out, under the authority of Government, to in-
quire into the manner in which the affairs of the Co •
'bony were conducted. lie was very happy to hear
such a necessary measure was adopted ; but it did
I not follow that because Government sent a proper
person to New South Wales, the House should not
do its duty by instituting an inquiry. The whole ex,
penscs of the Colony, since the year 1788, amounted
to no less than four millions; and these expenses'
had been increasing every. year ; so that the expen-
ses of the )car 1817 exceeded the stun of f.:(200,000.
Without feeling it necessary to travel into the his-
tory of this Colony, he would say, that there could
:rot be a greater waste of capital, or a greater mis-
application of national means, than what had taken
place respecting it. The conduct of the Governor
was highly reptehensible; he was informed that the
Governor took upon himself to fix a price on all pro-
visions, five-sixths of which were bought up by him.
He in :de it a constant practice to open and shut his
Nimes just as he pleased, and no provisions were suf-
fered to be sold in the market' without his atitholity.
In this respect, the greatest abuses had been practised,
and still prevailed ; and in consequence of these
abuses, the free settlers suffered the greatest hard-
ships. When any of these persons, who were very
little above the rank of paupers, sent their corn to
market, they found the doors of the storehouses shut
against them. They were then obliged to sell their
corn for a very trifling price ; this corn snort after
nanid its way into the stores, where a certain price
.c‘ as a1,...-ays fixed upon it; le could fu:ly prove
w hat he now stated. Ile could prove a case which
occurred in the year 1813, when a settler mild not
get more than ss. a bushel for his corn ; and that the
next year the price of cern at the Government store
N\ a% 15s. a bushel. Similar practices prevailed with
regard to meat, of which very little could be procur-
ed.—The consequence of these practices was, a nmrt-
rage of property, and a general state of distress.
I'he whole colony was, in fact, in a state of confu-
sion; there was,no controul or check upon the Gover-
nor; and it impossible, from the vast distance
of the place, which might beoconsidered as our Anti.
podes, that any letter of complaint could each this
country, and have an answer returned to it, in suffi-
cient time to allhrd the aggrieved party any redress.
In short, the condition or the settlers was altogether
deteriorated. It was not a commercial, but purely
an agricultural colony. lie had now a word et- two
to say on another part of the question; he meant the
manner in which justice was administered in the co-
lony; and he could prove that the whole system of
the administration of justice stood in need of revi-
sion. Ile had seen a letter from a merchant, in which'
the writer said that he had sat fi.r nine months as
Jidge of the Admiralty Court. Something had
been said about establishing the Trial by Jury in the
colony; but in the present state of the colony he did
not think it would be a wise measure.. It was neces-
sary that Parliament should take up tl:e entire sub-
ject, and that the public at large should be made ac-
quainted with every fact connected with it. With
regard to the state of magistracy in the colony, he
understood that the Governor had appointed to the
office of Magistrates two men who had been eoneicts.
He pad indeed heard of a convict being appointed to
the situation of Surgeon-General of the colony.; and
from all the information which lie (Mr. Bennet) could'
collect? this person had, for 30 years, filled the situa-
tion with the greatest probity. But he would ask if
it were fit in a general principle to appoidt persons
who had been convicted and transported for their.
crimes, to the important situation of Magistrates?
Justice could never be administered with safety by a
person who was likely to be reproached by a prisoner
at his bar, with having been formerly a criminal;
and the safety of the colony required that this prac-
ticF should be put a stop to. One of those convict
Magistrates, of the name of Lord, was of so low a
station in life, that he used to come down with. his
cart to sell blankets. The Honourable Gentleman
then entered into a comparative statement of the
convictions which took place in some counties in
England in 1817, with the view of proving that no
county had the sum: proportion of crimes as New
South Males, considering the differenoe of popula-
tion. In Devonshire, in one half' year 17 were con-
victed. In Warnickshire, the proportion was as 1
to ; and the convictions in Yorkshire were 74
out of a population of 1,100,000. Here the Honour-
able Gentleman read a clause from an Act, which
gives certain powers to the Governor, and animad-,
vetted 'en the unconstitutional and arbitrary measures
which at present were known to prevail in the colony
of New South 'Wales. It had been ascertained, upon',
unquestionable authority, that General Macquarie,
in the plenitude of his colonial power, had ordered
three men to be flogged, for no other crime than walk-
ing across a piece of ground which he called his park ;
and what aggravated the case was, that they were
not persons who had been sent out as convicts, but
respectable men, who had gone to die Colony as free
settlers. One of them was an ingenious artist, who
had contrived a certain instrument, by which the
Government saved the sum of ten thousand pounds;
yet it was upon such a man that the Governor .or-
dered
twenty-five lashes to be inflicted. This wan-
ton severity, however, was not in accordance with
any law of the British Constitution; but was sanc-

tinned only by a Colonial Repletion, which em-
powered
the Governor to inflict five hundred lashes
upon any person who should incur his dipleasure.
Yet he (the Honourable Member) was fully convinced
that no Governor would have betrayed himself into
proceedings so reprehensible, had there been a Coun-
cil appointed to moderate and direct his powers.
But while Lord Bathurst thought proper to invest
one individual with unlimited controul, it was natu-
ral to expect that consequences must ensue as inju-
rious to the Colony as they were unfavourable to the
liberty .of the subject. To the right of levying
money in New South Wales, he could by no means
accede. It ought to be remembered, that it was iot
a conquered country, yet, strange to say, taxes Were-
levied in it in direct contravention of justice. A tax
of 10s. per gallon upon imported spirits was claimed
throughout the Colony, and various other taxes also,
amounting annually to the sum of £20,000. The
state of religious and moral education in the Colony
was a subject to which he found it necessary to call
the attention of the House by every obligation of,
duty. The letter which he held in his hand froth the
principal Chaplain of the Colony, and some passages
of which he would beg leave to read, would prove to'
the House that all the information that had been re-'
ceived with respect to the moral improvement of the
Colony was without the least foundation. Many of
the colonists, it appeared, were compelled to attend
a place of worship, by the Governor's orders, against
their will, and the Catholics prefen-ed living together
without the obligation of marriage, rather than have
that ceremony performed by a clergyman not of their
own persuasion. A Roman Catholic Clergyman had
gone out from Ireland, but on his arrival the Gover-
nor would not allow him to officiate, in consequence ,
of his not approving of his tenets, and his wishing to
maintain a uniformity of worship. Rut, be would',
ask, could any one doubt that morality was not bet-'I
ter with forty religions, than vice with hilly one ?
(flear, hear, hear! from the Mini,ter;,ll 1:‘ utles.)—!
Such was the melancholy pleasure which the ti,-.t
Catholic ceremony occasioned, chat it might he con:
pared railer to the funeral of a beloved friend than
to the celebration of religious rites. The present un-
favourable state of the Colony was in a peculiar de-
gree to he attributed to the deficiency of education,
both as it regarded morels and religion ; and the fe-
male part of the inhabitants were particularly want-
ing in both. At Sydney, the number of men who
attended Divine worship might be estimated at one
thousand seven hundred; but of the females not more
than four hundred were known to Ile present. The
lstate of the women of the Cclony was truly shock-
ing ; thrown as prostitutes on tare town after the hour
tof three o'clock, they induh'ed in every species of
, depravity, and it appeared that no weans of remedy
i with regard to this nuisance wc:c a4opted till the
21st of March, 1818, when something was attemp-
ted. Here the Honourable Member read certain pas-
sages from the letter of Mr. Marsden, becore adverrrd
to, in which the depraved character of the female
convicts was particularly noticed, and variutt ; deple-
dations were stated to have occurred in consequence.
He felt it his duty to express his decided op:,o,i'sion
to the measures adopted by the Governor, .‘ ith re-
gard to the licensing of public-house?. Ile had ookoci
over the list of licenses for the last year, and round
it to contain the names of fifty-two individuals,
among whom was included the notorious character,
Bob Hazard, better known by the uame of Oxford
Bob—(lltar, lx:tr.) The Colony, he thought, would
certainly be a valuable one if wisely governed. Mr.
M•Arthur, a respectable free settler, had introduces!
the Merino sheep, the fleece of which sold at ss. Gd.
per lb. and there was no doubt but with proper and
judicious regulations New South Wales might' be
raised from its present wretched and degraded state.
The prospect, however, was now sickening in every
respect ; yet he was not without hope of a change tak-
ing place for the better. The preposterous conduct of
the Goverar, in all his public measures, was highly
reprehensible. When a farmer applied to him for
some labourers of robust and healthy constitutions,
with a character as little exceptionable as could be
hoped from persons who had forfeited the protection
of their country, the selection made was two puny
tailors, and a London pickpocket—(A laugh). It was
melancholy to reflect, that no less than ten o thousand
nine hundred convicts had been sent out in one year,
and it was his decided opinion, that Penitentiaries
might be established, which would answer every pur-
pose, at a much less expense than that incurred by
transporting convicts, and might supersede the neces-
sity of such a measure. He was a friend, and not an
enemy, to punishment ; but let it be judiciously di-
rected. Transportation was, in many cases, so far
from bring a punishr sent, that it was an object of
choice. The great check to crime he conceived to
be the facility of detection—( Hear, hear)—and
whatever tended to promote the latter object, would
best answer the ends of public justice. The Statute-
books might be loaded, but without effect, with Le-
gislative enactments ; moral culture, and religious
improvement, were the best means of ameliorating
the political state of New South Wales. He should,
therefore, move, that the House do resolve itself into
a Committee upon the State of that Settlement.
Lord CASTLEREAGH was willing to give all
due credit to the motives which induced the Honour-
able Member to
consider
iininsoiguir
himregret presentas
ifaq
n thatu esti
opponent,o questionHonourablebefore
atnhde
rH4oeumsbeec aslcloulldie
not as an ally, of the principle which it involved. In
time of peace, it was right that the attention of the
country should be turned to such subjects of internal
economy as appeared most urgent with regard to
public advantage ; and the Prisons of the United
Kingdom had properly come under this description;
but lie feared that the Honourable Member had, upon
the present occasion, takrm insulated grounds upon a
,question which demanded the fullest and most com-
prehensive inquiry. He (the Noble Lord,) depre-
cated any partial view of the question ; and, there-
fore, felt it his duty to vote against the Committee,
conceiving that, with the limited information before
the House, it would be premature. When a full
and general inquiry might be had, the House, he
hoped, wotild not be satisfied with an es-parte state-
ment. In 1812; an Honourable Member, whom he
now lamented not to see in his place (Sir Samuel
Romilly), proposed a measure similar in its nature to
the present Stye; and the result was a fair and candid
investigation. He then read a passage from the Re-
pint of the Committee upon that occasion, which
proved that the Colony had experienced every poui-

ble attention fi cm the Government at heme.
Noble Lott', after having read the passage
to, observed, that his Noble Friend at the head ,e:
Colonial Department, had already institute:: a
-
mission for the express purpose of inguirin,z
state of the Colony; and added, besides, 1111:
were npw in this country certain individuals rito;
recently arrived from New South Wales, wh„..
formation might be I-eh:3 upon with more cer4
than accounts whreh were had from a more (pat;
able source. Will inn as he was to respect those;
able motives bi vrilie:t the Honourable Gently
who originated the motion was actuated, still !let
not forbear from observing, that he (the Noble
had, in the coufse of his parliamentary
occasion to deprecate the credulity (:f :I‘e How:-
Member, which frequently comm;ttet? his chi

to a greater extent than praLleoce .could
Ile did not know how the Honour:dike Nleral;:i
Warwickshire felt at the compatiscu made
his country and 13ntany :Ton the
morality; but for his own runt, he was •
pared to admit the propriety of the star,:„
There had been much said about the comforts v.l
soldiers enjoyed on board, and this was inde,.tr;
contrasted with the treatment of the convicts,
should think it rather a strong assumption to hr
that positive enjoyment was to be met with s:t al b
sea. From the small experience he had had in,'
Channel, it had rarely, if ever, occurred to hitt,
the situation even in a packet-boat was err;
though he had not to cumbat thts.e thwtsaasi is
veniencies which arc inseparable from a sea vov,
and be had, to cheer him, the compaay of ladle
But it was a very great anomaly to go into the,
cussion of this question abstractFdly. It wasnot
fit way to arrive at any g,;oct or tangible result
take this up as an isolated question, which was,
fact, so connected with a general inquiry into
whole system of our criminal jurisprudence, tha:
could not be separated from ir. He himself had it
contemplation to bring before the House an-o'
next week, which would include this question,
which, froM the hearing of other circumstances ei
it, would put it into a proper light for discs ;:a
In fact, it bore so great an analogy to a very inii
tart question which had, upon a late occasion,
betioe the House, that the same arguments rhit.h
had made use of. involuntarily suggested themsel;
to him now. On that occasion, -there •had beta
proposition made for two distinct Committees, ce
which was intended for the consideration of matt
relating to the Bank, and the other on the Cirol:
tion ; but the House saw the impossibility of Ka
rating them, and perhaps this third Cnami:•t
which was now, sought, may not improperly be t,
to be instituted fir the partinse ef marrying the
ports of these twot:oonmittees—(4 laugh.) Ile we
ask, was this a fit time to press upon the Russet::
necessity of going into This Committee, when it ix,
already burdened with more than an ordinary wei
of business, and when the vat icus election petiii
had so prominent a claim upon their attent:c:C'.
(Hear.) Ahead:- this question was aLout to Clr^
before the House in more shapes than one, an,i
would but impede and clog -their operations
multiply Committees. Indeed, of all the means
bad been :ested, ht should not hesitate tos.
the 'lowa Gentleman's v.-as die least e4.*
So far back as 1812, there had been inquiries
into this very subject, and the Executive Governel
were at this moment greatly interested in it, rA
would of itself be a reason to discountenancei
pushing this measure, in its present shape, are:.
ther. In the measure which he proposed ta
the House—the consideration of how far the crimi:
code could be modified, and particularly as far
it regarded die existing mode of punishment by trx
portation, would make a principal part. Netessaa
connected and identified with this, must be thecm
deration of the condition of convicts abroad, and tine
only could it come under discussion in its proper plig
The inference which must necessarily be drawn fx
this general objection to our criminal law cannot
very flattering to our national importance, inacm
as it supposed the whole system to be exception-
The state of the prisons and transportation,
form a part of his inquiry, and consequently the
minal code itself must undergo a revision. It r:•
however, unwise and unjust thus prematurely
impugn established modes of punishment, withr
pretending to suggest secondary or mitigated .
tutes. He would not deny that this was a fit
when we were in profound peace, to inquire
.1
these subjects ; but to make that inquiry vasnib.e,
should be general, and not confined to abs
questions.—(Hear, hear.) This measure was unc
did, inasmuch as it presumed against the laws
ready established, and it was unwise to start fro'
any system of laws until we had contemplated a boa
ter one. This would not look well in the eyes
Europe, or the people of our own country. It oag:,
ever. to be, as it had ever been, the great aim of .s
Legislators, to diminish crime by the terror of crams
ple ; but at the same time avoiding, as much as :•
sible, compromising the national character. lle V.0..31
not charge himself with much vanity in age=l.:"
that the inquiry which the House would, in a
time, be called upon to make at his instance, wot.
embrace every possible topic of this now propesc
the House, and would include every mode of eau:
talent, and every subject connected with it. Naha,
it would not be going too far, to say that this
sure was somewhat dangerous, from the presumPuc'
which it raised against the established modes tile
nishment, without admitting a proper investigaltv
into the nature of them. He would again rePel!,
that this inquiry would only serve to make the
tension of the House diverge, and tend to weaken'
importance by multiplying the objects. • The 111.
was too candid not, to admit the willingness of
sisters to go into this subject—(icar, hear); bU:
by no means amounted to a compromise of that!
tention, to avow that they were disposed to attend,
it only. in that shape which was likely to be pr0,!1..•
tive of beneficial results.--(Hear, kaas) Out err
nal code had ever been eulogized as apportioning,
the most impartial way, the meastne ci punishit
to the crime ; and no one interested in the inter
of 'our jurisprudence, would be found to advoa;
hasty and inconsiderate repeal of any of its
without the most minute and patient investigatfo.'
(Hear, hear.) Any measure which had for
ject the furtherance of the ends of humanity or
tice, should ever meet with his warmest co.opera.
but to the present motion, he et:KU not subxos.

,
• ,
't. 6
i
-0• • ,
. -
• •
lb_ ___ a_— -4. that of soldiers coaveyed in transports,, ,
or sailors on tioned only by a Colonial Regulation, which em-' ble attention fr cm the Government at home. . _or
Toole, and an Account of the proceedings for car- board of King's ships. But the
condition of these powered the Governor to inflict five hundred lashes ,i Noble Lord, after having read the passer
..tr„,
0 ithe head •;ft
eying that Convention into effect. was very different. Indeed, with regard to soldiers, uponh any
Hperson who should incur his dipleasure. I to, observed, that his Nob Friend at -
l''
Lord CASTLEREAGH suggested to the Honour- be had asked Officers tithe Ariny who had been Yet e (the onourable Member) was fully. tonvin.ced 'Colonial Department, had already institute:: a •-e.
invest recentlywerenpwartinivtlei,iis country
fr Newcert;ioiur
ti,inidliz.iad.,
uric,
sts:hio; •
assured by them proceedings so reprehensible, had there been a Court- state of the Colony; and added, besides, 11 ..
able Member, that as the discussion to-morrow would sent out on long expedi,ns,hhow the soldiers were that no Governor would have betrayed himself into mission for the express purpose of ine,nirine jA-.,.. )Tbit
In
lead to some explanations on that subject, it might treated on their passage? and
.e was . dr
be desirable that this motion should be deferred, and that it was impossible to conceive any thingoil
But
dordto
Bmathoduerarsttethoaungdhtdirrecrotpehris
powers.to invest
for the present alloweeto stand as a notice, the torment and suffering which they underwent;ilt: i
,;;:.
Mr. SMYTH conceived that what would be dis- they were crammed down into close, narrow, and one individual with unlimited controul, it was netu- formation might he reli:d upon with more cer •
equal t that tott
, cussed to-morrow would not be exactly what related filthy places, and almost suffocated
. with noxious va- rat to expect that consequences must ensue as inju- than accounts vfletch were had from a more Iv ~
se
pect t °set, c
to this motion. . pour. He was assured, that during a voyage,. the
. rious to the Colony as they were unfavourable to the able source. WillOire as he was to res b-' I'
Lord CASTLEREAGH said that this might be whole time of the convicts was passed. in idleness, in liberty .of the subject. To the right of levying able motives br which the Honourable Geol.,
true, yet it was very likely that the discussion would gambling, and indecent conversation, without any money in New South Wales, he could by no means who originated the !retina was actuated, still !let
.„
i
• lead to the consideration of other parts of .the trans- attempt being made to give them instruction. It had accede. It ought to be remembered, that it was tot not forbear from observing, the he (the Noble L.,
action closely connected with this motion. been said, that when a man was condemned to trans- a conquered country, yet, strange to say, taxes were had, in the course of his parliamentary esp.,;:: tl
The motion was then entered as a notice. portation, he should be considered as subject to every levied in it in direct contravention of justice. A tax occasion to deprecate the credulity (..f• tie:
Mr. TIERNEY was surprised to hear the Noble species of bodily calamity
Ilona.,
ity and mental degradation. of 10s. per gallon upon imported spirits was claimed Member, which frequently cormnittet! his char. 1
• .
Lord's account of the nature of the discussion to be If such a doctrine as this was to be maintained, it throughout the Colony, and various other taxes also, to a greater extent than pruslerce Geould ca., e
expected oa the treaties to-morrow. From the notice was time ' • deed to do away with the system altoge- amounting annually to the sum of V 20,000. The Ile did not know how the Honourable Moro:,
indeed
which the Noble Lord had given, it was true that ther. He should now advert to the Colony of New state of religious and moral education in the Colony Warwickshire felt at the compatiscn made ..!.
the Slave Ti'ade might be included among other sub- South Wales, and call the attention of the House to was a subject to which he found it necessary to call his country and Botany Bay. :Ton the quee;;,
jeers on which the consideration of the treaties might the manner in which its affairs were conducted. He the attention of the House by every obligation of morality; but for his own ;L:rz, he was re; ~
excite discussion, but then it could be onlyby pared- had been informed. that, in consequence of the nu- duty. The letter which he held in his hand froth the pared to admit the propriety of the star•::;:,
part of
. the rinci al Cha lain of the Colon and some as es There had been much said about the comforts vi.
' •.c
thesis, though it seemed there was now an intention mcrous complaints that came from that P P P Y, P g
to make that parenthesis a very 1...,,te one. To-morrow world, person a with whom he had long been in the of which he would beg leave to read, would prove to soldiers enjoyed on board, and this was indiee;o
• . habit of friendship, wes now. on the point of being the house that all the information that had been re- contrasted with the treatment of the ceirvitte : ei
then, they could only expect conversation on the trees-
. .
tics. But the house would have more to do with sent out, under the authority of Government, to in- ceived with respect to the moral improvement of the should think it rather a strong assumption to I.lt eh
~
them than merely to converse. In some way or other, quire into the manner in which the affairs of the Co. Colony was without the least foundation. Many of that positive enjoyment was to be met with tit ni ai
;Goner or later, the House must come to a decision lony were conducted. He was very happy to hear the colonists, it appeared, were compelled to attend sea. From the small experience he had hac: it. a
. upon them, though the Nolrle Lord seemed to have such a necessary measure was adopted ; but it did a place of worship, by the Governor's orders, against Channel, it had rarely, if ever, occurred to him:: ~,
not follow that because Government sent a proper their will, and tjee Catholics prefereed living together the situation even in a packet-boat was eit.:i-a.
no intention that they should do so to-mot-row.e
Lord cASTI,EREA Gil said_ he had distinctly person to New South Wales, the House should not without the obligation of marriage, rather than have though he had not to cutebat thoselhensa;,a i, .
The whole ex, that ceremony performed by a clergyman not of their veniencies which arc inseparable from A sea voy :
~,
given notice that he had not any particular motion do its duty by instituting an inquiry.
to submit to the House on the papers to which their Perms of the Colony, since the year 1788, amounted own persuasion. A Roman Catholic Clergyman had and be had, to cheer him, the compaay of ladi. '
attention was to be called to-morrow. Many Mein- ,to no less than four millions ; and these expenses gone out from Ireland, but on his arrival the Gover- But it was a very great anomaly to go into the ;el
. bers might wish to ask question: relative to them, j had been increasing every. year ;so that the expen- nor would not allow him to officiate, in consequence cussion of this question abstractFdly. It was not• ra:
car 1817 exceeded the SUM of C 200,000. of his not approving of his tenets, and his wishing to fit way to arrive at any pod or tangibie mat;
and to these he would be happy to give any answer.ltes of the(i)
It it was wished at once to take the sense of the ' Without feeling it necessary to travel into the his- maintain a uniformity of worship. But, be would take this up as an isolated question, which was,
„i
House on any question connected with these papers, tory of this Colony, he would say, that there could ask, could any one doubt that morality was not bet- fact, so connected with a general inquiry in:o.
~(
certainly to-morrow would be an unnatural occasion :not be a greater waste of capital, or a greater mis- ter with forty religions, than vice with Indy one?— whole system of our criminal jurisprudence, that It
. fort bringing forward any such question which mist application of national means, than what had taken (Near, hear, hear ! from the Mini,ter;,ll 1:‘ vekes.)— could nut be separated from ir. lle himself had it of
. j
be thought recessarv. Brit at the same time, by
place respecting it. The conduct of the Governor Such was the melancholy pleasure which the tirst contemplation to bring before the House ante: w'
saying this, he would not be considered as preclud- was highly reprehensible; he was informed that the Catholic ceremony occasioned, that it might he con:- next week, which would include this question. ~
sou
lag !iimself from answering any question which might Governor took upon himself to fix a price on all pro- pared railer to the funeral of a beloved friend than which, from the hearing of other circumstances 1:p, it
to-morrow be put relative to them. visions, five-sixths of which were bought up by him. to the celebration of religious rites. The peseta un- it, would put it into a proper light fir discies: al, ~
Mr.TIE It NEY said, the drift ofthc Noble Lord's pro- He in :de it a constant practice to open and shut his favourable state of the Colony was in a peculiar de- In fact. it bore so great an analogy to a very ha.; ril
. ceeding seemed to be like this—that whereas certain Sores just as he pleased, and no provisions were suf- gree to he attributed to the deficiency of education, tart question which had, upon a late occasics, L: %,,
treaties had been entered into, binding the country tered to be sold in the market' without his authority. both as it regarded morals and religion ; and the fe- before the House, that the same arguments vhth tl/4
to pay away certain huge sums of money, therefore In this respect, the greatest abuses had been practised, male part of the inhabitants were particularly want- had made use of. involuntarily suggested themsee 1,
1 .
on those treaties lie. w iiiil,l take the opportunity of dis- and still prevailed; and in consequence of these ing in both. At Sydney, the number of men who to him now. On that occasion, -there •had bees
dcussing the Slave Tratle It was true the Noble abuses, the free settlers suffered the greatest bard- attended Divine worship might be estimated at one proposition made for two distinct Committees, to
so
t I Lard had said that he did net intend to call upon' ships. When any of these persons, who were very thousand seven hundred; butof the fernales not more which was intended for the consideration of ma.. r.
t
the House to decide any question relative to those little above the rank of paupers,sent their corn tolthan four hundred were known to he present. The relating to the Bank, and the other on the Circe it
ii treaties ; hut he could not help til;aking that the market, they found the doors of the storehouses shut state of the women of the Cclony was truly shock- tion ; but the House saw the impossibility of so. u
course which the Noble Lord was to pursue would iyainst them. They were then obliged to sell their ; ing; thrown as prostitutes on the town after thelionr rating them, and perhaps this third Coam.i: c
not be very convenient. corn for a very trifling price ; this corn soon after 'of three o'clock, they indulged in every species of which was now, sought, may net improperly be e i
Dr. PHILLIMORE begged to know whether it found its way into the stores, where a certain price; depravity, and it appeared that no means of remedy to be instituted for the partiese of marryieg the Ib
was intended to-morrow to bring on'a discus:ion, re- I% .0, :11%.::, ys fixed ripen it; le could fu:ly prove with regard to this nuisance were adopted till the ports of drew twot.7ommirtees—(el laugh.) Le wee a
.•
lathe to the Slave Trade? x% lilt lie now stated. Ile could prove a case which 21st of larch, 1818, when something was attemp- ask, was this a fit time to press upon the Hulae, a
. No answer was returned tc this. % occurred in the year 1813, when a settler could net ted. Here the Honourable Member read certain pas- necessity of going into This Committee, when it w /
GIBRALTAR. get more than ss. a bushel for his corn ; and that the sages from the letter of Mt. Marsden, becore edvertrd already burdened with more than an ordinary wei
ti I(
Mr. TIERNEY wished to ask a question, merely next year the price of cern at the Government store to, in which the depraved character of the female of business, and whets the latices election penal
the sake of information. At Gibraltar, be un-, was I ss. a bushel. Similar practices prevailed with convicts was particularly noticed, and rariott; depre- had so prominent a claim upon 4heir attenecee;
de.'stood, duties were levied to defray certain charges regard to meat, of which very little could be prover- datiorts were stated to have occurred in consequence. (L'e:ir.) Alreadr this question %seas about to co.. i
.
which they were more thartsufficient to pay. There ed.—The consequence of these practices was, a mart- He felt it. his duty to express his decided op:aisition before the Ileuse in more shapes than one an:
was, a large surplus, and he wished to Sage of property, and a general state of distress. to the measures adopted by the Governer, sith re• would but impede and clog their operatiora tlee ,
know how this surplus was disposed of? ' rise whole colony was, in fact, in a state of confit. hard to the licensing of public-houses. Ile had :ookad multiply Committees. Indeed, of all the means wh:.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, sion; there WAS,IIO controul or check upon the Gover- over the list of licenses for the last year, and found had been suggested, ht should not hesitate to s.
he did not at that moment recollect any thing parti. nor ; and it was impossible, froth the vast distance it to contain the names of fifty-two individuals, the Honourabo Gentleman's was the least c4.*
cular relative to the duties mentioned by the Right of the place, which might be•considered as our Anti. among whom was included the notorious character, ;30 far back as 1812, there had been inquiries ::-
•
.' ! Honourable Gentleman. Any surplus, of course, podes, that any letter of complaint could reach this Bob Hazard, better known by the name of Oxford into this very subject, and the Executive Govenet
lis . belonged to the Crown, and was at its disposal. country, and have an answer returned to it, in sufli- Bib—(lltar, /e:rr.) The Colony, he thought, would were at this moment greatly interested in it, v:
Mr. TR lENEY—Under what authority w• it i •as c ent time to afford the antlered party any *redress. certainly be a valuable one if wisely governed. Mr. would of itself be a reason to discountenance
'collected ? And under what authority was it the ex- In short, the condition of the settlers was altogether M•Arthur, a respectable free settler, had introduced pushing this measure, in its present shape, arv:
closive property of the Crown ? deteriorated. It was not a commercial, but purely the Merino sheep, the fleece of which sold at ss. 6d. ther. In the measure which he proposed to wrier.
1 : The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, an agricultural colony. lie had now a word or two per lb. and there was no doubt but with proper and the House—the consideration of bow far the crinti
-r
he had never particularly inquired; but he always tosey on another part of the question; he meant the judicious regulations New South Wales might •be code could be modified, and particularly as far
° understood that the revenue collected at Gibraltar manner in which justice was administered in the co- raised from its present wretched and degraded state. it regarded the existing mode of punishment bytre
. ,
was the property of the Crown. bony; and he could prove that the whole system of The prospect, however, was nosy sickening in every porrition, would make a principal part. Netessa.'
• ; event OP CONVICTS AND OF NEW SOUTH WALES. the administration of justice stood in need of revi- respect ; yet he was not without hope of a change tak- connected and identified with this, must be there
. i Mr. RENNET rose to make his promised Motion ion. He had seen a letter from a merchant, in which' ing place for the better. The preposterous conduct of deration of the condition of convicts abroad, and •
on this subject, with a view of instituting an inquiry the writer said that he had sat for nine months as the Goverar, in all his public measures, was highly only could it come under discussion in its proper Fl
- into the treatrnen) and condition of convicts sent to Judge of the Admiralty Court. Something bad reprehensible. When a farmer applied to hint for The inference which must necessarily be drawn f.
•
New South Wales ; and also
into the state of that been said about establishing the Trial by Jury in the some labourers of robust and healthy constitutions, this general objection to our criminal law cannot i
. • •that had been made some years ago into the state of not think it would be a wise measure. It was 'recess. hoped from persons who had forfeited the protection as it supposed the whole system to be exception')
I
1 •
i ' Colony. lie began by taking notice of the inquiries colony; but in the present state of the colony he did
. prisons in this country, and the various plans recom- with a character as little exceptionable as could be very flattering to our national importance, inert
sary that Parliament should take up the entire sub- of their country, the selection made was two puny The state of the prisons and transportation, well
. mended by die Committees appointed for that pur- jest, and that the public at large should be made ac. tailors, and a London pickpocket—(.l laugh). It was forM a part of his inquiry, and consequently the •
.pose. Among other recommendations, was one for quainted with every fact connected with it. With melancholy to reflect, that no less than too thousand minal code itself must undergo a revision. It 1.:
improving the state of the hulks, on board of which regard to the state of magistracy in the colony, he nine hundred convicts had been sent out in one year, however, unwise and unjust thus prematurciy
I • prisoners were confined. It was particularly rccom- understood that the Governor had appointed to the and it was his decided opinion, that Penitentiaries impugn established modes of punishment, wit:le
mended, that a separate hulk shoulerbe provided for office of Magistrates two men who had been convicts. might be established, which would answer every pur-pretending to suggest secondary or mitigated awls
11.
.!.. , those convicts who were intended to be transported He jolt/ indeed heard of a convict being appointed to pose, at a much less expense than that incurred by totes. He would not deny that this was a fit tin
to New South Wales ; but he was sorry to say that the situation of Surgeon-General of the colony.; and transporting convicts, and might supersede the neces- where we were in profound peace, to inquire int
such recomtnendation bad nut been acted upon. It from all the information which lie (Mr. Bennet)could' sity of such a measure. lie was a friend, and not an these subjects ; but to make that inquiry ve:eab:e
appeared tlat increased numbers of persons were collect? this person had, for 30 years, filled the situa- enemy, to punishment ; but let it be judiciously di- should be general, and not confined to abstract?
'
transported every year, and that although this pu. tion with the greatest probity. But he would ask if rected. Transportation was, in many cases, so far questions.—(Hear, hear.) This measure was unc'
nishment was, in point of severity, next to death, it were fit in a general principle to appoirSt persons from being a
punishr lent, that it was an object of did, inasmuch as it presumed against the laws *,
they preferred it to any other punishment. Here the who bad been convicted and transported for their, choice. The great check to crime he conceived to ready established, and it was unwise to start fro
(I .
system
of laws until we had contemplated a be.
victs who had been sentenced to transper tation, and Justice could never be administered with safety by a whatever tended to promote the latter object, would ter one. This would not look well in the eyes
1:. put on hoard tile hulks during each of the three last person who was likely to be reproached by a prisoner best answer the ends of public justice. The Statute- Europe, or the people of our own country. Jr (rag'
.
• years ;in which number a .cat increase had taken at his bar, with having been formerly a criminal; books might be loaded, but without effect, with Le- ever to be, as it had ever been, the great aim of
place in the last year. One great mischief bclon,,, and the safety of the colony required that this prat- gislative enactments ; moral culture, and religious Legislators to of c 0...
es. , diminish crime by the terror
ing to the hulks was the total want of classification; tieF should be put a stop to. One of those convict improvement, were the best means of ameliorating ple ; but at the same time avoiding, as much as e,
i . for young boys and old offenders were mixed toge- Magistrates, of tire name of Lord, was of so low a the political state of New South Wales. He should, sible, compromi •
sing the natiohal character. 1l eo •
ther in the same place ; but recently he understood station in life, that he Used to come down with. Iris then efore, move, that the House do resolve itself into not charge himself with much vanity in aeoti .'
that the boys had been, through the vigilanze and cart to sell blankets. The Honourable Gentleman a Committee upon the State of that Settlement. that the inquiry which the House would, in a s:e•
praiseworthy attention of Mr. Capper, put in a place then entered into a comparative statement of the Lord CASTLEREAGH was willing to give all time, be called upon to make at his instance, WO:
separate from the rest. It sets a shocking thing to convictions which took place in some counties in due credit to the motives which induced the honour- embrace every possible topic of this now propel"
1 ' reflect, that human beings of tender years, whose England in 1817, with the viet v of proving that no able Member to bring the present question before the the House, and would include every mode of Pa
1 . minds were susceptible of all kinds of impressions, county had the same proportion of crimes as New House; and he should regret if that Honourable went, and every subject connected with it. Pub:',
should be suffered to be subjected to an indiscrimi- South -Waies, considering the differenoe of popula- Member should consider him as an opponent, and it would not be going too far, to say that this ir..
nate mixture with old and hardened offenders. It tine. In Devonthire, in One half year 17 were con- not as an ally, principle the
of which it involved. In sure was somewhat dangerous, from the prestialet.'
, was shocking to think, when the expense of sending victed. In Warteickshire, the proportion was as 1 time of peace, it was right that the attention of the which it raised aeainst the established modes of F.'
,
convicts to New South Wales was Au great (it being. to J;',760 ; and the convictions in Yorkshire were 74 country should be turned to such subjects of internal nishment, without admitting a proper investigaa:
about 07 a head during the last year), that some out of a population of 1,100,000. Here the Honour- economy as appeared most urgent with regard to into the nature of them. He would again reps: .
care was not taken respecting their morals and belie- able Gentleman read a clause from au Act, which public advantage ; andr
the
Prisons of the United that this inquiry would only serve to make the
viour while on their passage. It was a common pow- gives certain powers to the Governor, and animad- Kingdom had properly come under this description• tention of the diverge, and tend to weaken '
, House
...
lice on board the transport ships for the women con- vetted 'en the unconstitutional and arbitrary measures but he feared that
the Honourable Member had, upon importance by multiplying the objects. The ti'.
victs to be taken as wives by the •sailors; and others which at present were known to prevail in the colony the present occasion, takrm insulatedof
grounds upon a was too candid not. to admit the willingness •
e were selected by the Officers _who kept them in aof New South Wales. It had been ascert • d •which aine , upon ,question demanded the fullest and most corn- sisters to go into this 1..).. t (lk re -hear); bur
subject—(Hear, ice , ,
state of prostitution during tine passage. This was unquestionable authority, that General M •c of that r.
Macquarie, prehensive inquiry. He (the Noble Lord,) depre- by no means amounted to a compromise
dons, although the very object of sending them in the plenitude of his colonial power, had ordered
fore,
cased any part's
duty oil view of the question ; and, there- tention, to avow that they were disposed to attend'
i abroad was that of improving their morals. He had three men to be flogged, fur no othercrime than
. lately laid a Petition before the House respecting the ing across a piece of ground which he calledhis
- state of one convict ship; and she then stated what and what aggravated the case was, that trey
he himself bad seen, together with what he bad not persons who had been sent out as
r bid, park ;
ley
Conceiving to vote against the Committee, it only in that shape which was likely to be pros.iti.
that, with the limited information before tive of beneficial results.--(Hear, /teats) 0
the House, it would be were premature. When a full nal
andgeneral inquiry tu
tioi
• cog
litre
code had ever been eulogized as appor b
IShin
convicts, but
:4 nearys, and believed to be true. He might not have respectable men, who hind
It. gone to the Colony as free hoped, wittild not be satisfied with an es-parte state- to the crime ; and no one interested in the inter-
i been exact in some of his calculations; but he could settlers. One of them • was an ingenious artist, who ment. In 1812; an Honourable Member, whom he f' ' • o our Jurisprudence, would be found to al 1
• voc3,
I prove to the Noble Lord opposite, on the authority had contrived ac • ' certain instrument, by which the now lamented not to see in his place (Sir Samuel
hasty and inconsiderate repeal of any of its
.I,l'
that in one ship, of a surgeon, which carried out 200 Government saved the sun? of ten thousand pounds; RomillY), proposed a measure similar in its • nature to without the most minute and patient investigano:-.
a man that the Governor .or- the present ene• and the result was a f •
and air candid (Hear, hear.) Any measure which had fqr it`'
1 t • . in one crib. These were situations in which no hit- dered twenty-five lashes to be inflicted. This wan- investigation. IHe then read a passage from the Re- ject the furtherance of the ends of humanity (m• • '
man beings should be placed. It had, indeed, been ton severity, however, was not
in accordance with port of the Committee upon that occasion, which rice, should ever meet with Iris warmest co-orer•le
said, that their condition O. board was better than any law of the British C • •
onstetuteon; but was wise- proved that the Colony had experienced every pout- but to the present motion, he could not subxo.). •
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