Star.
London, England, 1816-03-28 00:00:00

~ -~ ~.

mem acting as Secretary of the Admiralty, who
ivri-ohed to alter the situation of all the Clerks in that
d,l,,,ireent, could not hare adopted a more skilful
wade of carrying his intentions into effect, than by
ffsenr:ng such an order. But he could not conceive
t a period of war, this increase of salary was not
• Tantej, what reason could be adduced for allowing
5, she, the country was in a state of profound peace.
/Jew learaament bad an opportunity of examining
the %subject, and investigating the necessity of the
sternum., it was carried into effect. But surely it
mil ar have been' deterred for a few months, until•
sitsatien of thicountry was sifted—until it was
the
wen whether or net the Property Tax would he re-
newed. Some doubt might be entertained on this'
' t although he was aware, Ministers, in their ima-
rn • • • ted the success of their faeourite mea-
ration, AtItICIpA
ore. (hey tild not carry it, supposing they harboured
1, (lob/ on the subject, they must have seen, that every
Cleat ie every other Department of the State, as well
the Admiralty, would, by the cessation of the tax,
pm' 410 in every £lOO. Certainly it wonld have
bees as well to have waited for the decision of Par
'ascot on this point; but, in consequence of the
precipitancy with which the business was conducted,
Ibis km of 10 per cent. was superadded to the in-
crease of salary. He felt extremely unwilling to op.
pose any regulation which tended to the benefit of a
very meritorious and industrious body of individuals.
}laving keen at the head of one of the offices in which
these aln rations were made, he had an opportunity
of observing, generally, that the Cie: ks at Somerset.
House, were most sedulous in their attention to their
.respective duties, and it was therefore with pain that
be said any thing, which, by possibility, could give
them uneasiness. But he could not allow a system
to be adopted, which entailed additional expenses on
the public, without any intimation being given to
Parlament on the subject, until after it had been
tarried into effect. Preparatory to this alteration,
deli 'pourable Secretary, in the last Session, halo-
aged a Bill, with which few Gentlemen were ac.
quieted, on which alk his after proceedings were
boded. That Bill permitted his Majesty to make
may superannuation or pensions that might appear
labial proper—and went, in fact, to do away the
provisions contained in a Bill introduced by an Ho.
resrabk Gentleman near him (Mr. Bankes). Un.
der this new WM the Older in Council of the 30th
of 'unary WAS sent forth, and wider if the stii;er-
amnions were made in the Admiralty-Office, &c.
He should now advert to the alterations that bad
been made in the different department.. lu 1814.
tit number of Clerks in the Admiralty-Office, Navy
Pay-Oace, and Victualling-Offices was 445, exclu-
chiding extra Clerks—at present the. number was
4al—being a diminution of '24 men—the difference
between the war and peace establishment. Now
came the question of salaries;
1814. they wont:used .4'90,340
Jo the year rui6, to ........... .......... . lOa.oun
So that what the public had gained by a diminu-
tion of twenty-four Clerks, WAS an increase of salary
el £lO,OOO a-year.—( Cries of Hear, hear, hear).—
It was surely not too much for him to say, that this
regulation was bad. It the regulation bad net
taken place, all parties would have been satiefiad.,-.1
Teeuty-four persons vanilla not have been turned
elrift, and the public would have been £lO,OOO in I
'pocket—(4 laugh.) But this was tea all. To get
taut those 24 persons it was necessary to auperan-1
mate them ; and, under another head. it would be
leand that the diffeience sn anitium baween the Es-
timate of Admiralty Office soperannuations, in 1814
aadlS:6, was 43000, and in the Navy Pay Office,
ii7oa, making in round numbers 45000, which,
OM to the increase of XlO,OOO in salaries, gave an
sdiiional annual expense of 415,000, for which no
reason could be assigned. Paili tment was never con-
sulted on the matter. The Older in Council was
hared on the 3041 of January, the vc'y day before
Pargannent atst.rnble.l, as if to prevent any ititerfe-
ttsce on their part— (Hear, hear, hear.) Ile would
ow call the attention of the House to the AdMiralty
Mt.
.1n December 1800, at a time V hen an im-
itate navy was employed, there were only sixteen
rinks; but now the frinour ible Secretary had
paced twenty-eight on the establishment. It was
true he reduced the nu robes, comparing it with 1814,
frail 35 to 25 ; but comparing it with 1800, he had'
made an increase of twelve. These men, too, were
44eed on the establishment. They were not extra
aulta.l,o cesia be removed when circumstances
travail it necessary—no, being placed on the es-'
lahiament, there they must temain, neless they
tete dismissed for misconduct, or gloss incapacity.
TA, he conceived, was an imposition on the public,
*lab could not, and ought not, to be borne. At a
ta it critical period of war, sixteen clerks were found
lhacient to transact the business of the Admiralty,
4100‘a, when they were taught to expect a lasting
Nce, twenty-eight were employed. The Honour-
-4le Se:salary might say, that he had retained only
4atreiglit out of thirty-five employed in 1814. He.
10111. d ctititend that this was very useful for the
N~llio'w did it bear on the individuals dia.
"aed ?—Those seven persons were snperauoumed,l
and, with the exception of one, who was fifty-
ft, ,e years of age, the rest were in the prime of life.
wie of them had been appointed at 15 years of age,
and be bad strved for eight years. He bad been
Pe'annuated. The Hon. Secretary. under his new
u wasletebtion, had supers imnuated a boy I Surely a person
superannuated; on 43(11) a year, at the age
:Zor "a, had a right to complain. if he remained
°thael he certainly %amid arrive at a south
salary.igher
There was another Gentleman, of
Years •
• • of Age. If that person was not in the prime
Isle+then lie (Mr. Tierney) was getting into his
lat• ref laugh.) The whole advantage of this
Yeern settled to be, to mulct the country, most .oa-
'alma
"Y• cf 415,000 per annum. In conclusion,
I'l
Right Ham Gentleman observed, that, as he bad
'o 1.41..0
Ls_ani, retard the necessary business of Gpvero-
7nhe should propose to vote one-half of the sum
tlZthsti.a.adn,dwhich would cover the expense for six
during that period, the new system of
l'ei;tl.4_la_ti,o_n that had been introduced into the Admi-
141,7_Ulfice,itc. could be fully investigated in a COM.
tie! above stairs.—(l-lear,hear.)
Sir w
L. A RRENDER. then proposed to wa-
di 1111$ hut Resolution, which was dope acetar-
-441t,,1Y,a-ar,,,Hi e then moved—h That a sum not-exceed--
er':23. 16, 7d. be granted to his Majesty, to
e salaries and contingent expenses of the
141111% for the year 1818."

• • •
• Mr. T/ERNEY moved, as an amendment, a •
that 1
the sum of 4'29,861. 18s. Std. shOuldhe substituted,
to defray the expense from the 25th of December,
1815, to the 24th -of- June, 1816, being a period df
183 days."
Mr. CROKER said, that he had fully proved the
truth,of the assertion he had made on a former'sight,
that the Ordinary Estimates, in the first year • of
peace; were greater than those in the last year of
War, and the Right Honourable Gentleman was
obliged to admit-the justice of the statement, which
he could not deny. With respect to the other point.
he would take upon himself to say, unless he had
made some trifling error in examining Estimates,
100 years old, that even under the heads alluded
to by the Right Honourable Gentleman, no dimi-
nution had taken place, in the first year of peace,
compared with the last year of war. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman, in selecting his years of corn-
prison, had quite overlooked 1801 and 1802.
Of the latter year, they had often been triumphantly
told, as one in which the. greatest economy and re-
trenchment were acted on by the Administration then
in power, which Administration the Right .Honour-
able Gentleman afterwards joined. The Honourable
Secretary here entered into a detailed comparison of
the charge for' the Civil Officers of the Navy, the
Outports, Dock-yards, &c. in 1801, a year of war,
and 180'2, a year of peace ; from which it appeared
that the increase in the latter was upwards of sixty
thousand pounds, while the present ordinary Esti-
mates, compared with those of last year, presented a
decrease of four or fiveahousaed pounds. This fact,
he thought, was sufficient to destroy the Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman's prima facie case, which was
founded on the principle, that. an increase of expefise
in one or two particular items was a sufficient reason
for not going into a Committee • but which circum-
stance, in his mind, rendertd a Committee absolutely
necessary. The Honourable Secretary then adverted
to the alteration in the salaries of the Clerks, to whom
he paid a very high compliment for industry and abi.
lities. He denied that the Bill introduced by him gave
to his Majesty unlimited power to grant superannua-
tion or increase of salary. It only went. to preserve
that right which bad existed under anteceleat orders.
He had explained the nature of the Bill to the Ho.'
nourable Gentleman opposite ( Mr. binges), and, at
his request, he had inserted several words to make its
object more clear and apparent. The Right His.
Gentleman had attributed to him the whole merit, as
lie was pleased to term it, of making the alterations
in the situation to the clerks. lie must, however;
know, that he could not move a single step in the''
business, without the concurrence of his Maji:s.y's
Government. The question was, in tact, forced on
his Isla;este's Government. In 1811, the der Ls me:
mot ializ.rd Cie Board of Admiralty, for an int:tea:x.ol
salary—but that body was unwilling, in a petiod nl
extreme pressure. to listen to their request. In the'
year 1812, the Honourable Member for Westminster:
(Sir Francis Borth:It), who was not remarkable for
a wilt to increase tile public expenditure, m ide st.
motion in that House, the tendency of which was
increase the salaries of the Clerks—boo, at the request.
of his Honourable Friend (Sir G. Warred,ler),.be
withdrew it. In 1813, the lion. Member for West-
minster again introduced the subject, whets be was
informed, that it was under the consideration of the
Lords of the Admiralty, and would spe.dily be
brought before the This clearly diesvad, that
there was no intention of hut rying the business for-
ward. Strict inquiries were then made, and the inferior
clerks were found, in many instances, to be placed in
a state of distress, that demanded immediate relief
The present alteration was, in consequence, made—
which, while it deprived the higher Clerks of -many
advantages, improved the situation of those who bad
previously been very inadequat ly provided for. At
no period within his ( Mr. Croker's) recollection were
both Secretaries and tneir Clerks so actively occupied
as they were within the last four months. To ac-
count for the vast increase of business between the
present•petiod and that of 1802, ode reason would,
11.2 trusted. suffice, and this was, that in 18,1 there
were but -:;,3011 out isns;oners of
(al. while at present there were non less than 33,000,
(Hear, hear),—every one of whom created at least
two or three letters, besides their actual persqual in-
spection at the Admiralty, and the great
accumula-
tion which they necessarily gave td the prize discs.—
'floe statement of tutu accounts'must be drawn from
20 folio books, including the ships' books, and very
often a computation of the !netts' time in months,"
weeks, and even days, in the Navy Office cerciti-
cates.—(llear, hear).—He would not, indeed, say
that great ieductions in those departments might
not take place in a year or two; on the contrary, he
thought there would—because the Pension List and
augmentation of Pursers' books, would not in time
of peace hear a proportion to their former amount.—
On the point of patronage, lie coul,l assure the House,
that so far from any matter of this kind being in con-
templation, it was expressly provided against ; for
the heads of departments, in concurrence with the
Order in Council, had fully determined that no situ-
ation was to be filled up, until the whole Peace
Establishment was reduced to its lowest level. He
(Mr. Croker) denied that the forcing out Clerks, as
their removal had been termed, was an act of hii—
he only acted a Ministerial part, and however painful
was the duty, it became indispensable, when he was
called upon, as a faithful servant of the public, to
state the lowest establishment with which' he could
go on: The reductions in his department were seven
—.the two eldest, at their own request, one of whom
bad been in the service 35 years, the other 87. The
five others were selected by the heads of the Depart-
ments, from the least efficient of their body; and he
would appeal to the Members of the Board of Ad-
miralty, in whose hearing he spoke, whether every
fair indulgence had not been shewn in carrying the
regulations into effect ? The Honourable Secretary
concluded by expressing.a hope that the explanations
he had given would be deemed . satisfactory by the
Committee.—(Hear, dear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM declared, he would endeavour
to follow the Honourable Memberthrough his details,
at the same time that lie could not bring his mind to
the same triumphant conclusion which the Honourable
Member set out with affirming would be the result
of his speech—(Hcor.)—He was not present, on tile
former night, whet' the discussion took .place between
his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney) and the
Honourable Secretary, nut he, sufficiently conapre-
Lbeaded its name, Iron the explanation, which bad

just been given. The Hon. Secretary bad, it ap.
peered, affirmed,. that from the peace of Utrecht
downwards, the first year of peace was one of greater
expenditure than the last year of war. In making
this assertion, however, he had confined himself to
generals, and the only items to which he referred in
detail, were those which his Right Honourable Friend
(Mr. Tierney) omitted, namely, the last year of the
termer war, and the following year commencing
with the peace of Amiens. In making the compa-
rison between the two periods, the Honourable Se-
cretary was loudly cheered, when in his conclusion
he chewed, that Lord St. Vincent's Estimates bore,
in comparison to the present, an excess of £60,000.
On.this point, he (Mr. Brougham) was prepared to
demonstrate, that there existed no parallel between
the times in question. In 1802 the Estimates were
introduced in March or April; but they covered the
expenditure of the antecedent three months, which
were in fact to all intents and purposes, periods of war,
and in every respect quite dissimilar to the present.-e-
-(Thar.) This year the peace signed six weeks before
Christmas, akin nett it was tether surprising it had
not been signed as many months before that time;
for every body knew, after the transcendent battle at
Waterloo, that peace was inevitable. No man was
frantic enough to bold a contrary opinion, for we
were for so many months in every respect at peace.
The delay, indeed, which intervened before the for.
malities were concluded, had no reference to warlike
threats or dangers, it merely arose out of the territo-
rial considerations among those great men-merchants,
the foreign Potentates, who wet e parcelling out among
each other so many millions of souls, and fractional
parts of souls. What was the state of things in
1802 ? The Preliminaries of Peace were signed in the
month of October, and no man living could, six
weeks before the Definitive Treaty was signed, have,
with confluence, expected that Mr. Addington WAS
likely to make peace with Benaparte—the time was
spent in preparation, alarm, and jealoasy—it was then
a state of warlike circumspection, during which no
Minister could have proposed a reduction of our Navy.
So far from there being any comparison between the
two periods, they presented a broad dimmer icil con-
trast. Loa at the enemy then and now. In 1802,
we had all Europe to contend with ; and, in the last
year of that war, a Northern Confederacy had sprung
up, which, though disjointed at the moment. no man
couid pos)ibly say might not again preseet itseif.—
There was another circumstance. which distinguished
the Peace of Amiens, as a maritime peace, from any
preceding one. He alluded to the circumstance of
our having sent out a fleet of 18 or 20 sail te cruise
its the West Indies, to watch the armaments sent not
by Bonaparte to Sc Diming°. (Hear, hear.) These
were facts sufficient to overthrow the Hon. Secretary's
co.nparEon. The next branch was the increase of
salaries to clerks, which had been the subject of his'
Hon Friend's: (Sir Francis Burdett) former mo-
tion. How did that case then stand ? His Hon.
Ft iend unduustedly complained that the selaries had
not been raised—nor, however, on the ground of their
insufficiency, but because Loud Barham, then in the
Admiralty, After allowing several chrks to pan chase
theit-siruations, bad their incomes reduced. The cies ks
naturallreornprained of a breach ut cony Act and we:el
of comae ifttitled eitherto have a proportion et their
Money remitted,or thesalaries they purchased retained.
There could be no such claim nate; and yet the
1401%311 of the Admiralty, in conjunction with the
revisory, c .rry an augmentation into effect, when
subsistence is cheaper, and work less ; and after an
increaser of ten per cent. is gained by that admirable
proceeding, not so-much of the House, as of the coun-
try in conjunction with the House—the victory over
the Property Tax. (Hear, hear.) He would next ad-
yea to.the Hon. Secretary's situation of £2OO a year,
as Secretary to the Charity for the R-liet of the poor
Widows of Officers, with a:4 Assistant of 6100. Why
would net the litter be competent to do all the duties
of this office? His salary in 1813 was but £.30, it
now £lOO. There was also a Paymaster fee
Widows' Pensions, at 6600 a-year, and a Clerk at
£BO. In 1813, the salary of this officer had been
£2OO a year, and no clerk. Why had this increase
*risen ? Tee Inspector of Telegraphs (now useless)
ought to be completely abolished.—(Hear, hear.)--
In the item of Messengers, a sum of £920 a-year ap.
pe ired, -Ithough the Commissioners of Inquiry, in
1785, reported that four Messengers, at an expense
01£270 a.yesr would be sufficient ; there were now
six, and at an expense of £920 a-year. The Pay-
master of Marines was another office, the transfer of
which to the office a Treasurer of the Navy was re-
commended in the Report of 1785. At all events,
the Commissioners then recommended that the salary
should not exceed RUA/ a-year. Why then was it
now ,£ 1000 ?—(Hear, hear.) in the other branchei
of this oPice, there was an expenditure of £1340
a-year, where the Commissioners of 1785 had made
a regulation not exceeding £720 a-year. The whole
result of this argument was to shew that Ministers, in
the excess of their zeal for economy, were doubling
their expenses..---(Thar, and a laugh.) Parish duties,
fire, and 'portage, which in 1813 were but £BOOO,
were now rated at_ £5OOO. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman then commented with much sar-
casm upon the cbarge of £lOOO for the office charges
of Lord Cethcart's sinecure place of Vice-Admiral
of Scotland, and then proceeded to expose the pro-
tesien and waste in the Government expenditure,
under the head of « ashursements for Law Suits."
The account was this year £lO,OOO. As a Lawyer,
lie was glad to see such a provision made for his
brethren of the long robe, by those who indulged in
the luxury of the law. Besides this sum there was
£4.00 a year for an assistant Counsel, and £5O (mark
the strange inversion 1) for a Counsel-in-Chef. The
legal expenses of the Mint were also enormous. He
spoke from his own professional experience when he
asserted that there was a profusion in the Govern.
ment law-suits, which would be nothing short of
abiolute insanity on the part of the wealthiest and
most litigious individual, who had an insatiable relish
for the delight of a lawsuit.—(A laugh.)—lo cases
where lin individual, with this species of taste, would
indulge hims .11 with two Counsel, Government would
not be put off with less than six or seven. (Crier of Ivor,
hear.) The attorniee bills bore, of course, the same
proportion; and where, in private cases, one or twowit-
noises would be deemed sufficient, the briefs in Govern-
meat cases were garnished with '2O or 30.—(Near.)
I'he Honourable and Learned Gentleman then de
fended his Right Hon. Friend's (Mr. Tierney) view
of the system of superannuating Club; which was

' confirmed, not contradicted, by the Hon. Secretary
opposite. Among the seven superannuatinus stated
by the Honourable Secretary, the ages of the parties
were from 52 to.22—the ottlaties ot the youngest
£l3O a year, eqnal to the halfpay of a wain:led
Major in, the army. Now one ot those Gentlemen
who had been discharged was, it apeeared, but 41,
years of age, though he was in the office 35 yeetesi—
From chic statement of service, he must have beets
employed at nine years of age—no eat ly p-riod, in.
deed, when it was considered L:iV, according to this
scale of prematurity, the El u ur. hle Secretary was
superannuating lads of 22 —(4 laugh )—lt....y,!rt.u,g
to the sinecures among the Lords ot the A iniiralty,
he (Mr. Biougharri) roust repeat, fornre assertion,
that the fleet! Civil Lords might be altaget7ier
spared.—(Hear, hear.)—The First Lord of Ile: Ad-
miralty, from his great responsibility, had not per-
haps a pound more or less than he dcserved. The
three Sea Lords of the Admiralty were indeed too
lowly paid for their great au.2 responsible duties—
they had but £lO3O a year each, the sane as the
three Civil Lords, who, in fact, did nothiafy, for their
income, although they were the pr persons
on whom the whole blame w,,uld b: flung in the
possible event (which Goo forbid) ot a naval disaiter.
—This mode of remunerating ;tulle service. eiviag
those who did much little, and those who did little
ouch, was like the conduct of the spendthrift in the
' waste of his thoughtless profusion. 'Chose. civil
Lords of the Admiralty did, indeed, perform d nice
of another kind, but they were duties for which ihe
public ought not to pay--..hey assisted in m oking
Houses at four o'clock, and in voting, ace edieg to
their consciences, upon. all occasions. All th it "re-
mained for him to state was to express his conviction,
that unless the Committee took care that the practice
of retrenchment should keep pace with the profession
of its principle, they would abandon that pledge in
which they were already bound to the etthlid.
Mr. CROKER said, that if the House were not
already acquainted with the tone and manner which
the Henourahle Geetlernan had taken trmn himse:f
lately to assume, they must be surprised at his tone
and manner on the present occasion—(Hear, hear,
from the illinittcrialside) tone and manna: not oply
inconsistent with the reseect due to Parliament, but
such as should nor be admitted in p;ivate society.
Mr. BROUGHAM rose to order. It was very
painful to hear himself so attacked for any cxpresi,
which he might have used in the course of the debate.
He thought he had made no more than a plain, mi.
flute statement—(3/ ,cal ofitear, hear, from all tide, of
the Hutu ) . He appealed to the Committee—he
flung hirinself upon the. Committee, and would ask
whether there was any one Member who could say
that any thing which he had stated deserved the cx.
pression of the lioneu-able Gentleman opposite—for
he begged the expression to be noticed, as it was quire
new to Wm. wit/gin the walls or the House, that 64 it
would not have been tolerated in private company ?"
Mr. CROKER—WouId any such expression bare
been tolerated in private company as that used hy the
Honourable Gentleman, when he talked of the con-
venient kind of conscience which' persons connected
with Government had, as to theaway in which they
gave their votes—( Hear, hear.) If the Honourah:e
Gentleman meant to abandon the expression he was
satisfiea. He understood from his gesture that hi
meant to abandon it.

Mr. BROUGHAM said he did not mean to aban-
don any thing that he had said. He was proceeding
to make some farther statement, but was obliged to'
sit down, by cries of Order ! and Spat., :pole I
Mr. BENNErf rose to order.—He protested
against the menacing Inanner of the Honourable
Gentleman on the other side of the Utilise (Mr.
Croker).—(Louttcries of Order, Order).
Lott! BINNING rose to order.—He had heard
nothing in breath of order from his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Croker), although be bad been twice
called to orders he, tnerefore requested the Chairman
to protect his Honourable Friend from such interrup-
tions—(Hear, hear).
Mr WYNNE expressed his astonishment at the
kind of discussion which had arisen, and to hear an
Honourable Member talk of an insinuation being
abandoned.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bnoonati) submitted,
that when a breach of order was complained of., the
panicular instance should be stated, and that the
words should be ordered to be taken down, so that
the sense of the Committee might be taken upon the
case.

Mr. CROKER resumed.—Rut for the circum-
stance which he had stated, he would have heard the
insinuation with astonishment,, and was therefore
sorry that he ha been mistaken in supposing the
Honourable Gentleman meant to retract it. Such
an insinuation as that there were many Members of
the House who voted for &very measure of Govern-
ment, whether they thought it right or wrong, was
one Which he felt most deeply—Wear, hear, hear,)—
and he felt it so, not only as being applied to his
Honourable Friends around him, but as affecting the
character and dignity of l'arliatnent.—(Bear, hear,
hear.)—He would- appeal to the Honourable Gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House 'who had
held similar situations to those of the Members allu.
ded to by the Hon. Gentleman, whether they wouLl
not have been most strongly moved by any such in.
sinuation as the abandotirnet of any part of their
public duty for some paltry private consideration ?
(Hear, hear.) 'There were none to whom he would
more confidently appeal on this subject than to those
Gentlemen who sat in the Board of Admiralty for.
med during the year of IBo6—than whom there was
not a set of higher mina,' men—be would appeal to
them, whether, in a similar situation, they would net
have treated such an insinuation as a foul calumny
(Hear, hear.) But to go to the question before the
Comrni tee—the Hon. Gentleman said, that helMr.
Cruker) made temporary clerks permanent by a sort
of legerdemain. Now, on this subject, he begged to
repeat what he had stated some nights ago, that had
onethec
clerk to
ebeeaany prospect of peace he had not added
the establishment—that he had refused
many of those cases in which individuals had those
claims upon him that worked most strongly. (Hear.)
The Honourable Gentlemai had talked too of *
sinecure office which he held, besides his situation as
Secretary of the Admiralty—this was being Secretary
to the Widows' Fund ; an office far from being a
sinecure, and the salary of which was the same npw
A% it had been (hied in 1739, namely, er ou a year,
out of which he gave a part to the Fund.—(floo)

NI