Star.
London, England, 1829-04-01 00:00:00

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read a iticood time on the 17th April, by which a &et-
14titie.anteml *ifs allowed. if he understood aright,
their uotthlfiiir • Lad been told not to discuss the Bill
on the Pre,eatAffun of petitions; and therefore the only
dismission:a% hick could take place upon the general
pt inciple of the Bill was on the motion for its second
ted'lhat

reading. Al' le said before. he now reratt--
he should vote against it with considerable reluctance.
Ile was reluctant to oppose the Noble Duke, but, be-
CAW be felt it a duty be owed to his country, no sacri-
fice. would induce bin! to shrink from the task, however
ofigtatiful. What weedd the country be likely to say
at the hasty measure?-Was it not likely to be the source
bf genet al dissatisfaction ? Would not the public be
led-to ask why they were so eager to pass it, and that
before, they bad well considered it? Who could think
that forty-eight hours was a sufficient time to weigh the
principle of that Bill ? He was going to call it a Bill
of Indemnity, and so it really would appear to be. The,
short time allowed for its consideration made it look
more like a private Turnpike Bill than one of such public
importance. He should therefore propose that Monday
biotic day for the second reading of the Bill, instead of
Thursday. The difference in time would, after all, be
verb Short ; it would be only the going into Committee
bn Tuisday ins sad of Monday. for if the Bill were read
a second time on Thursday it could not be committed
before Monday; whereas, in case it should pass the
second vetting on Monday, it might go through the
form of committal on the Tuesday following ; and even
thin the interval between its first and second reading
Would be only three Parliamentary days, Wednesday,
Thursday, and Faiday. He should much rather that
their Lordships would consent to this than to see the
Bill hurried forward in the manner in which it was pro-
posed to be; and. therefore, he a ould move that the
day appointed for the second 'ceding of the Bill be
Monday orstead of Thursday.
LOW 'HOLLAND said hecoeld not consent to the
Motion male by the Noble Earl who. had just addressed
the it 'use. Tne principle of the present Bill had been
owlet' the consideration of the public, nut only ever
since the commencement of the present Session of Par-
liament, but long before; and, since the meeting bf
Parliament and the Speech delivered from the throne,
rt was known what the nature of that Bill would be ; he
for one could not acquiesce in the argument urged by
the Noble Lord who fist addressed the House. that
the measure was one which coed not be warranted
by atiy preceded. He thought that, from the great
knots ledge which that Noble Lord had • f all Parlia-
mentary Acts, be would have slaved isro a detail of
those particular Acts which were passed under the same
auspices as those in which the Foment Bill appeased be-
. fore them. (The N 'ble Lord here entered into a detail
of Bilk pasted within a very short time after their fist
introduction into that House.) He was surprised that
the Noble Losd.should have confin, d himself to Acts
passed since the sear 1819. He could it.statice the
Habeas Corps) Suspension Act. which passed in three
days after its being first brought into the House. It
hi., bre r twitted that the country was taken by sin-
pike. Ile strongly denied the charge. He, for one,
was not at all surprised that the Noble Duke had
adopted the course which his wisdom pointed out to
him as necessary. He would further pet it to the sense
of th House, wltetltet Patlianient or the country was
takett by sot pris ? Could Noble Lore's have thought
that the S:ssiiin would have passed without the Mei.
sore, in some shape to other, being brought before Par-
-1 amens ? Ile tioiroli el the idea of the proaicle . f the
Bill not h ving been well considered. lf really the
Noble L bids had bad only a few days to consider at he
would, out of contteiy to them,' have iuppinti..t i MO*
lion tot outdo.; off the second leading until a later pe,
rind. But Noble [dealt bad not o aited lilt then to
consider the principle of the BM, which for thirty years
had been the almost constant subject of debate in that
and the other !loose of Pal liametst. and which had been
considered over and over, he was going to use a hypes-
b le. and say f rim time immemorial—(Hear).
The Eall of MALMESBURY decocted that it was
not from any personal consideration he had made his
motion for delaying the second leading of the Bill;
but, as he had betore said, he thought the dignity of
their Lordships Hone denaauded it; for he maintained
that, since the posing of the Ball of Rights, there never
was a measure of equal importance to that DOW before
the House. In all his Parliamentary experience be was
ignorant of any Bill. until the present, having been
bellied tholugh dr- House in the manner in which this
was likely to be, and between the first and second read-
ing of which so abort an interval was allowed to tran-
spire. He hoprd their Lordships would consider that
they .were now about an act of the Legislature of a sta-
tism the emit impottatits The Nolie Baton bad referred
to good old times to produce a precedent. He could
fit t agree with him that the Acts quoted by that Noble
1341011 did affo d any precedent. Emergency required
th it they should have been so passed ; but .in the pre-
sent case these was sot pressing emergency. The NuOle
Earl condoled by saying he should persist in his mo-
iio s that the Bid be read a second time on Monday,
in tead of Thursday.
Lord. esODEItICH could not acquiesce in the motion
Made by ihe Noble Eml. nor could he agree with him
in thinking that sufficient time had not been granted to
the public and to Parliament for the consideration of
the principle of the Bill. lie would ask that had hey
been about lot the last ton months? He would venture
to say that there was not an ind.vidual Peer in the H- use
who bad teat availed himself of at least oneoppottunity
of them 1 f mole than one—to esti' ess his opi-
_ noon upon the measure. The question bad been under
discussion altoost every evening since the commenter-
trent cf the Session, and he; believed the result of
those discussions was. that the minds of many persons.
• . at well of those who were as of those who were not
Members of that House, were influenced to view the
question in a light in which they bad not sera it
belose—(Hear) His N ably Friend founded hirprancipal
ejection to the Bill chiefly tio the great mass os peti-
tifto that had been presented against it. He (Lore
Gsidirieh) valued the right of petitioning. and he was
ready to grant his Nobble Friend that nu sabers of pets-
tiout'had been presented against the measure; but that
tie must say, that in getting up petitions recourse Was
had Mean, which he hesitated not to pronounce as
most disreputable to the country; and alien be con
aideied the gr".tis blunders in history on which one half
as'r the ois *Me founded, and more especially the,
gross nusie'printations made by those who were op.
0143 to the measure—the calumnies that had been
resorted to—the attempts. th .t bad leen made to repre-
sent all those w;th whom the measure originated as con-
spiring Co overthrow the Consti.ution, and consigning
them .h ittfausy here if not to destruction betealtes—
ripfeientitig them as atheists and latitudinarians—to
eote,-i..g auto' a dap' laid plot to destroy ni;t only the
Citi'vii.ution but religiois of the counts y— he cc, tainly
coin's .ttot .vie petitions that' had bent; got up by such
tsi'4.'ls witL that importance whiCh would othei wise at-
t-ids'ekseit to them. He frit Womb bouud to say. that the,
Lost tailluatiaable and dills c means bad been se.'
bia

i ,

' sorted to by individuals. Shame on some of their co-
adjutors. who, while they made those representations.
blew them to be false ! Ifs then, they had been field
up to theit fellisar countrymen in such a character—if
they had been branded with such/Infamy—he thonight
occasion gave them a right to ask for the earliest
possible opportunity to vindicate tbensst4ves, and show
that they *ere not influenced by unworthy motives;
that they did not deserve to be condemned as ant i-Christs,
or struck off the rolls of Christianity because they had
not refused to listen to the sorrows and complaints of
millions of their fellow w►jects with unyielding feelings
and unrelenting hearts.
The Earl of ELDON said that the reasons which the
Noble Duke had given for his proposal that the Bill
should be read a second time on Thursday nest had, no
doubt, considerable weight with the Noble Duke. He
admitted that the Noble Duke must feel anxious to set-
tle the question, and to get rid of the obloquy which
had been cast urn him, and the improptiesy which had
been ascribed to him ; bution the other handohere had
been one or two reasons given which he (the Earl of
Eldon) coofessed had as great weight with him per-
sonally. They had been told that there had already been
frequent discussions in their Lordships' House on the pre-
sent measure. For his own part he had constantly avoid-
ed entering into any discussion on the measure in pre-
senting petitions. He thought, therefore, that their L ,rd-
ships should have time to consider the nature of the mea-
sure. If he had been aware that the Noble Duke intended
to press the second reading on so early a day as Thurs-
day nest he should certainly have either insisted that the
Bill.should have been read at length to night, or that
such a course should be adopted by the Clerk of the
House, or that their Lordships should be made ac-
quainted with the details of it at least sixteen hours
sooner than they were likely to be. It was said that
their Lordships must be aware of the contents of the
Bill in consequence of its progress through the other
House; but their L •rdships had no opportunity of
seeing the Bill until the 24th March, and several amend-
ments had been :ince made to the Bill. At alt events
the Ball had not been printed until Thursday, the 24th
of M arch; and, as far as he could see, he denie.l that
it was. as a Noble Lord (Holland) had said, similar to
those Bills which had before been discussed by their Lord-
ships. He could assure their Lordships that the subj-cts
of the realm would look to their deliberations with great
attention, and it was necessary for the honour and
dignity of the House to look to all the details of the
Bill. Whatever the decision of the Legislature should
be tie people ought to look to that decision with re-
spect and deference, as it was to be supposed that
the Legislature would look to their interests with
calmness and deliberation. He repeated that the Bill
was neat similar to what had been bef re discussed in
that House. In the first place it interfered with the
Supremacy of the Crown, and any such, the most mi-
nute, interference in that point had at all times been
deprecated by their Lordship . In the hest place. it
interfered with the Church. and the Chuich in this
country was a part of the State. If there were no other
ground for his denial of the fact stated by the Noble
Lord, this he thought was sufficient to prove that this
801 l was not similar to what had been before discussed
in this House. The Noble Lord who had last spoken,
in allusion to the petitions which had been presented.
had stated that those petitions made misrepresentations
with regard to the question. He had himself read a
rem pail of those petitions, and he did not see how
such a statement could be made.
L►rd GODERICII rote to captain.

The Eat I of ELDON proceeded.—He should be sorry
to misinterpret the Noble Lord, but he had understood
him to have said so. •He contended that the measure
diffrred in some very important points from any other
that had before been proposed He knew that great
auxi ty must exist on the part of the Noble Duke to
explain the mrasute which he called upon their L-•rd•
shi, s to adopt; but he (Lord Elton) could assure their
L •rdships—aud he sp. ke horn long experience, having
himself sat on the woolsack. that their discussions would
have much more weight with the country if they were
the effects of deliberation. For these reasons he could
not agree to the proposal that the Bill should be read a
second time on 'Thursday. All that bad been asked by
his Noble Friend on the cross bench was, that it should
be postponed from fitursdly until Monday. It
could not be said that it was for the purpose of causing
unuece my delay that this proposal had been made; for
if that had been their inteirtion they had it in their
power to enter into a lengthened debate on every peti•
tion which was presentee; and he could assure tie
Noble Duke that.notwithstanding his anxiety to advance
the measure, in its future progress it might be delayed
more by adopting a c ur e of per cipits.rcy at present.
For his own part he honed that the opposi ion which
the Bill should meet wirh should be catried on without
resorting to those measures to which, from Par Harnett-
tary rules. they were entitled to resort; but if there
were only two days a•lowed fur the consideration of it.
he thought massy Noble Lords might consider
.they
were entitled to take advantage of any course of the
kind to delay it.
Lord HOLLAND explained. He had not stated
that the B II was the same as had. been at other times
before the House, but that examples were to be found
of reading it a second time as early as the Noble arke
had given to tice of. The Noble Earl had said that he
would not take Advantage of delaying the Bill in such
a way as be would be cuttled by Parliamentary usage.
but at the same time he had kin ly thrown out a hint
to other Noble Lords to d,r so.

Lord GODLAIICH, in answer to what had fallen
fr m the Noble Eu 1, begged to say that he had not said
that the petitioners made misrepresentations, but that
nosier e rotations had been snorted to in order to co-
ati- the pr. pie, and induce them to sign those Petitions.
Lot d FA lINH A M admitted that the Bill was similar
to those which bad been before introduced to the House,
inasmuch as concession formed the basis of them; but
they were not similar in point of the event of that con-
ces•i• n. as in none t f the former Bills was concession
caused to such an extent. He •thought it was incum-
bent on those who depot ted from Parliamentary usage
togi.e satisfactory reason. for that departure, and he
had not beard a single maws given for it except this
one, that the Noble Duke was anxious to relieve hinstelt
fi..m the oblovy which the course bc bad adopted bad
procured tot him. Under these circumstances no one
could blame the Noble Doke for endeavouring to bring
forsaid the Bill ; but he doubted whether that was a sat.
ticient reason for then Lordships for departing from. Par.
tiamentary usage.and proceed so rapidlyw itb a Bill which
bad not been printed until March 424, and the contents of
**Welt many could not of course have known sooner
there *etc also, he understood, some collateral Inca-
antes to be intioduci d. He did not koow how those
measures were to he regarded. Some of the advicates
of the Bill had declared in vie mita House that they
were introduced by way of secuiiiy, while others said
Neat they were brought f ward (he alluded particularly
to the Disfranchisement Bils) as a eassies in themselves
beneficial to the coui,tey ; but at all even s he believed
it was generally understood that the Ministers would

never have introduced one of those measures w ithou• '
the other, a d it war, therefore. necessa' y th t tl err
Lordships should on Thursday evening t be those mew.
sums into considera both of which were caksdati d
tirescite public discootent. lilt was the wish of ',leis
Lordships to increase the irritation whit* at present
existed throughout the country they would agree to the
proposal of the Noble Duke, that the Bill should be
read a second WOO on Thursday fot if any tt ing could
add tattle disappointment it would be that their Lord-
ships' House. which was supposed to be a deliberative
Assembly, should not take forty-eight boors for the con•
sideiati..n of so important a measure. It this measure
passed it would. of course, be supposed to be a pet.
manent measure; and it wait his fixed °pintos. that,
the course of a year or two, the state of the country, and
the demands of the people, would prove that the result
of it would not be to ensure the pe..ce and seem ity of
the empire.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH would recollect the pro-
phetic declaration of the Noble Lord who had just sat
down, and remind him of it at the end of a year or tie..
He admitted that it was not direc.ly according to Par-
liamentary usage to give the Bill the second reading
two days atter it had goo the first; but this, he thought
was no ordinary ca-e. What were the re isms for wish-
ing to postpone the second reading of the Bill? A
Noble Lord had said th it there weir more than three
thousand Petitions on the subject, and that they were
entitled to the consideration of the House. But, if the
petitioners had time to form an opinion on the Bill,
surely their Lordships had the same oppoitunitt. The
Noble Lord (Eldon) had said that he had not di cussed
the met its of the Bill. As far as giving it the due con
sideration which reason required, he believed the Notile
Lord had not discu sed the merits i. if the Bill ; hut h 1
had, notwithstanding, made a riand assertion with se
spect tp it, and, although he had at all times required
rinse to consider a subject before i.e gave his opinson,he
bad pronounced itto be a most atrocious measure. They
were asked why should this Bill be read a seco .d time
'on Thursday ? He would beg their Lordships co con-
sider the effects of keeping the public mind in a state of
anxiety= and, though he did not agree with those who
said the public feeling was opposed to the pie-eot mea
sum, he still thought it was so much excited that ail
end should be put to distut Ware, and the just hopes
of those who looked to the completion of those aleA•
sures speedily gratified. He thought their L irdships
would best discharge their duty by looking to Vie secu-
rity of the coutitey, and. by speedily passing the Bill,
ensure the tranquillity which Ireland at present enjoyed
even in the anticipation of ft.
The Earl of CARNAItVON supported the motion.
He begged to remind their Lordships that period
when the power of the sword was entrusted to the C.-
tholics. At that period, the year 1817, the Noble EA
(Eldon) f rmed a part if the Administration ; and the
Bill which entrusted Roman Catholics with that -uts-
ttantidl power was teed a first time on fei Way, the 27th
of June, a sec nd time his t!.e very nest parli imentary
day, Monday, and passed through the Il use on the fol.
lowing Wednesday. He thought this was a sufficient
precedent for the haste which was complained of in the
present case.
Lord SIDNIOUTH said. that nothing which ke had
heard had in the smallest degree diminished his regret
at the motion of the Noble Duke. that the Bill should
be read a second time in Thursday beet. A Noble
Lord, who had spoken early in the evening, and alio
took a different view cf the matter from him, had al-
luded to the Acts of the 25th and SOth of Cheats IL
and stated that the rapidity with which those Acts were
passed was a sufficient piecedent for biotin the pie.
sent Bill. He confessed he could tot agree with the
Noble L'ird. He iepeaced that he regretted deeply that
this course should be adopted—he seven, d it tor the
honour and character of the Hoes-; he regretted
that the Seeech of his M jesiy, which recommended
them to deliberate on the whole state tat Ireldn‘l, should
not he attended to. It bad been said th.t they had
Amply discussed the measure; but whets he reminded
their Lordships that they had, in reply to, his Majesty':
Speech. given a pledge that they would takc the entire
state of Ireland into deliberation. they had not by any
desultory discussions they might have had in that House,
on Petitions or otherwise, redeemed that pledge. Ile
had expected that an inquiry should be instituted, and
• Cnmmittce appointed tor the purposes recommended
by his Majesty. But as they were about to proceed im-
mediately with the present Bill, he thought it at least
should have serious deliberation. No precipitation
should be used—they should not, at all event., vas)
from the general usages of the 14 use. They all agreed
that it was a most impottant stteastite, and theief,4e,
however, their own character and digisity required -that
it should have their most serious console' ation.

The Earl of LONGFORD wished to advert to one
or too points which had been alluded to. A Noble
Lord had quoted the example of It e rapidity with
which certain measureshsd been passed in the reign.
of Chat les the Second as an example to be followed
an the present instance. At the time thou- measures
were passed the Legisla ore acted under the inn iei.ce
of fear and intinaida.ioli. He would ask, was mat thr
case at present? Were they now acting under intimi-
dation, or were they not ? Tale suspension or the Habeas
Corpus Act was also qu red; but that was only a tem-
porary. whereas the present was to be looked on as a
permanent and irrevocable measure. The .I.ffesence
was in the awful responsibility incurred, and this mem.
sure differed widely from any which had ever Wine
been passed. A Noble Lord (Caroarvon) had alluded
to the Bill admitting Roman Catholic cffi:ers to hold
high rank it► the army; but that Bill did not give any
new poweribut only extended the admissibility to higher
lank than was before held; and in one instance it only
extended that to the one country which ahead, existed
in the other. He had one word to say with regard to a
subject which was, in some degree, foreign to the pre-
sent que.ti,,n. Allusi-in had been made to the manner
in which signatures had been procured for petitions.
One misreps estimation had at all events been made for
the purpose of procuring signatures to the .petitions ; '
and an opinion had been spread that Roman Catholic•
were excluded on account of their religious tenets,
whereas it was solely on political grounds that they were
excluded. He would not longer occupy their Lord-
ships time. but merely say that he could not vote for the
Noble Duke's motion. _ _

The Earl of MALMESBURY again addressed their
Lordships, with no other view than fur the convenience
of the House. His opinion temained unchanged; but
if their Lordships thought proper to agree to the motion,
re responsibility rested on those who had brought it
forwards F r his own part he protested against it, but
if it was the general opinion that the motion should be
carried, he would not put their Lord-hips to the incon-
venience of dividing. He wished to state that it was
not from any motive of personal convenience that he
oepo,ed the motion, but merely because he was im-
pressed with the importance wt preserving the dignity 4.1
the House; and, in the view which woulJ be t tken of
their proceedings, not only by their contemporaries, but
by posterity, the forms by which impottant 11604,111Ve

were tan led, the dates and periods of the different
stages of important bills, would be Mire attejoird tot
thin the different feelings which might at present ;Mato
emelt Noble Los d. A Noble Lord had said that posterity
n mild bless them f r passing this Bill. He (Lord )1.)
would not prophesy whether postet.ty woof,' mess or
curse ti em, but he thotight care ought to be then *beg
the respectability, the character. and the dignity of dye
Hone u ere at stake.
Time Bari of WINCH!! SBA said, that, as his Noble Friegg
W declared that it was not his intentions to divide the Hoela. he
felt Nowell called upon to pretest gamut she Noble Doge, me.
tie.. He thought he would not ramie the dignity of the name
Ibe acceded to it. It wt.* a question of vast importance. sad os,
which deeply affected the character of their linedoldps How; lei
be would nut have it supposed that he was vritbia the walls of gin
Hooey. and not raise his voice agdeat it.
The motion that the Bell should be printed, and read a mod
dew on Thursday nest, was then put and carried without a diddle.
nuatemiscame
On the muting of the Duke of Was.unceroa the Forty Ulu
Frerbohlers Disfrandlieement was read a int time. n;

Noble Duke then moved that it should be read a second ihneas-
Friday nest; or, in case of an adiontord debate on Use Hones
Catholic Head Hilt, Monday next.—The minion was agreed it
The Duke of !Ili:UNION!) could nut anon the earliest offer
tunity to pass without protesting againat so dangerous a measure.
Ile did not believe three was any one who advocated thk aseasura
on the ground of principle but stalely of espy& ncy and, 'lmo
this eight be very convenient. It was certainly a very dangetem
enure of proceeding.
Petitions In favour of Catholic Emancipation were presented by
Lord Hasonlovos. by Lard WiLLourissar, and by bard Kamm.
Petitions against lure er Concessions wire presented by she
of WW/CHILNIA, by aLe bishop of Lamm. and by the Dian of ,
liscnatoina
The Karl's), RI.DON gave notice that he wou'd present went
petitions against the present bill on Thursday neat.
Their Lord,iiips adjourned at ilimr eats Sivas o'Cicscir.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

MI %MASKS took tbe Chair at the; aqua hoer.

Kell/hie/ pill•fee NU went through a Committee. and Gam
liaviog been beard at the Bar. the Iteport was received.

Sir. MOORE presented a Petition from the !Nab., and Clergy
of the Diocese of Cork awl Ross against any further eoneesdon to
the Roman Catholics. The Honourable Member presented i
similar relate from an indiablual named Bignal.—Orderesl to Ike
printed.
Mr. HUME moved far Returns of the number of prisms jo
the Cummission of the Peace set the counties in En11....4 sat
Wales.—Ordered.

The Honourable Minoan also moved for Helms of t►e listabe
of persons imprisoned for debt in the 14e of Man in the years 'set
and 189.9, distinguishing the sums fur whkh they were a►ea into
custody; also of the number of Crown debtors In the Ide of kirk
Ordered.

Mr. HUMS Inquired whether any Report bad been laid oa
table front the Conimitsion appointed to inquire into tln pecuniary
arrangements emeriti into with the Duke or Atka! re•pecting is
rights in the Isle of Man? He had been pteircuted from moving
for some informatiun on the subject 1.0 &mien, 45 it was waled
that it would be inconvenient to aford the House any information
whilst the negodatiotts were in progress.

Mr. IIERRIES said that an objection did ezidt to laying dean.
meats before the tluu whilst the Were pviullifts; but
as the Litmus of the Cuts.nsissiatt had 110 W dined, there was Do
ddlicuky its laying all the proceedings ha fore the House.