Star.
London, England, 1817-02-08 00:00:00

'officers.ocor.o.. had always opposes himself to
thatisimOiss: clamour which cl.arged public men
with-int-Wing ion large a proportion of the public
reuriey. 'lt- would be nearer the troth to sai, Owl
Wine w to pAid toa highly an i oche, s but model ately.
Brut there was a great chiference between those times
when the Reveaup was improving every year, when
the -1, ht was regularly paying off, and n•%ix, when the
• re..emie was decline•.g, and was kit .wat& have eirchnei/
hof.re it could he ascerai•wd. the har vest would turn
out Ir id. This spewed there was ibmething rott eil in the
s:a;eld ihe c marry. tie'hoped it was not inourable,
but it wan lainentahle aiid,citreine The Chancellor
of the Exchequer tii,•l sol.estrftirfihpes; he had said,
that they should not he at the deficit tUat
appeared, when thy looted at the extruordmaty cir.
cu.nstances ot the coo ary. This was admitting cite
evil of weicli all complained, and deriving consolation
on, distress. itself. The plan af Ministers was that
fit h erowingk.anct by this, as by all other athicipa•
tions u: the same• nature. a spirit of extravagance
was encouragest.• If they borrowed with one hand;
and 'kept the, Sinking Fond sacred .wi't'h the other,
it .amontsted to the same. thing in the end.—
They were now in a most embarrassing itate.'and
• ell that the Finance Minister could tell them was.
t tat he You'd isarele make both ends meet. How
1 nig this was to,go on no men could pronounce, but
it some measure was oat adtpted, the worst conse-
quences were to he reared. They ssould be at length
ern:spelled to take from the Sinking Farad, or to take
some step inconsiste.it witit their taith to the public
creditor. It was dreadtul to look forward to such
.an gent. The only alte:riative was that .of cutting
dawn then establishments.. • He trembled at the idea
of not being able ta perthe interest of the National
• Debt. The dirniouivis of the salaries of all the
*Great Officers of State must be resulted tb; and
• kn-wing this to be the case,•one of the questions they
bad to put to themselves was this, whether they were
not parties to a gross }rand upon the public, in mak-
ing those who held such salaries inquirers and judges
upon the occasion i In the. Marquis of Laasdown's
Committee, there was not one person holding an
office, with the exception of -himself.
.He wished
now to see a Committee so formed as that no person
appointed on it should have an interest in making it
- a mockery and delusion. • •Let tlitru be chosen either
f oat the neutr its or from poutletnen. he cared not
which ; but let them not beisitosera. from, those who
- • could not be expected -to proseaufte4he task without
a prejudice against its sersess.hl The-reduction new
proposed was insufficient. The Noble Lord, however,
bad conceded one point; he had allowed that there was
a difference bet ween the. present Peace Establishment,
and that which was voted at the conclusion of the
.American war, amounting to seven millions sterling.
--'l'he Honourable Member then proceeded to ex-
press his gratific scion at the communicatiortmade by
an illustrious person, whicll he described as of, a na•
• titre to give great and general satisfaction—(l/ear,
hear.)—.He trusted that it would meet with imitators
among all those who were in. the immediate neigh.
bourhood of the Illustrious flerson, that it would de-
scend still lower, to all the Officer; of State, and ,
• create in them a disposition to go and do likewise.
by giving pp something to the thitreases or the times j
• —( Nese, heir).—The• Noble Lord had spoken if ar
tenth part,. but that was not the proposmoss which.
they pidessed to copy ; and he trolled that, Milne
'like the present, Parliament would see the necessity ;
• of following such an example strictly to the letter.
It did not signify talking of splendour aad monarchy
.--(ffear, hear. free Me side). -ran was no
enemy to the splendour that•was necessary to surround
the Oscine, and he respected Monarchy as the only
term of government consistent with civil liberty.-
- . It was because the Crown might be endangered by a
contrary system that he wished to plant it upon ate,
best foundation, in the hearts of the people. It was
au the accumulation of gaudy, expensive, and un-
necessary
trappings, that could accomplish this. No-
thing was so dignified in times et difficulty as to see
the higher classes chew a symppthy.,Widi She lower—
• (Hear, hear)—nothing war sergraceful are poverty in
• public: men—nothing wakteo-hrahttotable to to see ;
those who filled high situatienawldld possessed great
opportunities, nitlectiog the. means of amassing
wealth and he should say that the Monarchy was
strong in proportion as selfishness was selected, and
a rigid self-denying economy practised is all branches
of the public expenditare— (Leiden' esteemed Awn).
Mr. CANNING observed, that front the general
tenor of the discussion, argued as it was in almost
every point applicable to the immediate questiOn, be
bed little expected that the House would have been
overwhelmed by the line of argument pursued by:the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman ( Mr. Brougham) who'
last addressed it. He did not. anticipate that the
proposition of• his Noble Friend would have obtained
the general acceptation of every part of that House,
but be most confess that his impression was, .that the
doubt would have beet whether the diminution of
establishrnents was not carried lower than was
consistent with the true interests of the country.—
(Mar. hear.) lie would, unchecked by the recep-
. ton that the observatioe had met. repeat advisedly,
that the impression of that truth was so strong id the
• conviction of his Majesty's Government, as to be only
overcome by the sense of the peculiar exigency.
and by a desire to satisfy the awakened anxieties of
the country:on the extent of National Expenditure.
It was the evidence of that conviction, he bad a right
to presume, accounted for the altered tone of the Gen-
tlemen on the opposite benches. They bad found it
convenient to dismiss from the discussion of that
night, all reference to the alarming dangers of a
Military Establishment—dangers to be viewed in the
double acceptation, as they were described, of an
• Immense charge upon ,the finances of the country,
'sad dangerous to • the liberties of the people.—
Gito forbid that he should' eoiEr undervalue the dan-
ger 'of standing ermiifs swollin to an unnecessary
magnitude, to Clonttitutiort ! but nu man had that
night insinuated the least doubt but that the tenacious
apprehensions so circulated On that point were en.:
Wily done away. Indeed, the Honourable and.
Learned. eventieman (Mr. Brougham) had directed
his opposition to totally different grounds: be seemed
.dissatisfied with the amonnt of retrenchment in the
proposition of bus Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh).
Yet the Right Honourable Gentlemen'( Mr. Tierney)
on tic same side of the House had admitted cundidly
and fairly. that the proposition of retrenchment eau
e.,s by- aa.i'.."0,000 than he, with the most laudable

....

•

terutiny, had anticipated.—(Hear, hear.) Can. the
House doubt that there existed the sincerest disposi-
tion to meet the difficulties of the pressure by every
practicable economy I Do not the estimates in every
item evince the reality of that intention I Taking
even the question as betw• en the security of the coon-
, try and the sacrifices to be made to the pressure of
the exigency, the former would be found in an inverse
ratio. The danger that the Civil Power had most
to apprehend, ac:ording to these Estimates, might
arise from the need of military aid. 'Passing from
that point to the objections mooted against the Con=
inittee, he would ask the House, whether'it was pre-
pared to exclude from Parliament. for to that extent
the 'objection against the present Committee. if at all
supportable. must lead, all person vrho held respon-
sible 'offices under the Crown ? For what else could
the objection mean, which said that such men were
unfit for the service of the House in a Parliamentary
Committee ? The Honourable4and Learned Gentle-
man (Mr. Brougham) has said, that it was his ob-
ject,to diminish the influence of the Crown—(Hear.)
him fairly bring forward that original qua Woe.
and he would have no objection to go to issue ; but it
could have no connection with the object which the
House had then in its contemplation. But, allowing
for a moment that the application was just. he would
contend that the influence of the Crown was is a state
of progressive diminution from what that Learned
Gentleman would call the best times of the Constitu-
tion—it had numerically diminished from those days
when the Whigs had the monopoly of office—when
the Septennial Bill was passed by these hereditary
servants of, the Throne. In arguing the present ques-
tioa, there was no right to assume the increase. How
Ihad every other Member who had spoken viewed it ?
Only in the view as it went to relieve she country
front expenditure, and operated as a gratifica-
tion to the public solicitude. Thus it was justly ob-
served 14,y the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Tictoey ), it was not the sum but the sentiment.
Then how reconcile that admission with the
faction of the Le timed Gentleman ( Mr. Brougham)
at the scanty retrenchments of the Officers of State ?
Really these objections were not very encouraging
to self-sacrifice. Indeed if the Learned Gentleman
( Mr. Brougham). recollecting what has resulted from
the proceedings of former Committees, looked for aid
iron) these sources rather than for the manifestation
ot aympathy, he must be a most sanguine calculator.
U it was as a gratification„it would be efficient—.
Fee whet,. pianiem emigre pant. With respect to the
Committee, it was his opinion that official men were
necessary ingredients of the examination it would
have to make. During the pendency of that Coin-
! mittee, if the Learned Member pleased, he hid a
shorter path to his object—it was in his power to
offer a specific proposition. .
Mr. WILBERFORCEsaid, it would be perfectly
tinfeir not to acknowledge that the Prince Regent
and his Ministers had 'thews- a disposition to make
sacrifices. for which the country ought to be grateful.
With respect to the Committee, his Noble Friend had
fully detailed its duties and functions—but, when he
stated, that its labours might perhaps continue fur
one, two, ct three years, be, could not avoid recollect-
ing. that,a dissolution of Parliament would probably
interfere Pith its proceedings, and render them of co
effect--.(Near. hear.)-1u his opinion, the great
length of time which would be necessary for the
completion of it, functions. formed a wry serious ob-
jection to it. His Right Hon. Friend (Me. Can-
ning) had said, that it was necessary that official men
should be on the Committee, and yet he at the same
time admitted, that, if the Committee were appointed
to effect .a diminution of the influence of the Crown,
it would tbeo be improper that any official men
should be attached to it.. Now, in his opinion, the
principle applied equally well to the present case.—
When it was made a direct question whether or oat
certain offices should exist, did it not clearly affect the
influence of the Crown ? Perhaps the influence of the
Crown. in Parliament. might be less now than it for-,
;Pell vies—but, .when they took into ccnsideratiou
their eau colonial establishments, their great military
fote.e, AK. du. it would be found. to have greatly in-
&caved is other respects. In fact, the Infidence of
the Crown met them every where-Land,:if there were
i feeling of discontent in tie country, he did not think
that the best way of removing it was to increase that
influence. He heartily wished that, on this occasion.
the House could come to some proposition, approach-
ing more nearly to agreement and unanimity. He
wished, that all parties, Would join in endeavouring
to make the Committee efficient. He did not expect
that any thing would satisfy the really disaffected ;
but be should be sorry, that those who loved the Con-
stitution, although distress might have soured their
temper. should have an opportunity of saying, that
such a Committee bad been formed as could produce
no useful effect.
Sir THOMAS ACLAND thought, that the ob-
ject of the Committee could not be attained, unless
official men, caphble of entering into the details of
expenditure; were attached to it—neither did be be-
lieve it would answer the end proposed, unless same
of those who were in the habit of opposing Ministers,
and who were accustomed to investigate the expenses
of the State. were also engaged in the examination.
.—(Hear,hscr.)
Lord LASCELLES bad heard, with great satis-
faction, what had been stated by his Majesty's Mini-
sters, and be was sure it would be received with the
utmost gratification by the country. It might be
said, with refereuce to some persons in the country.
that fi concession was the parent of demand"—and
that the efforts of the Government would not satisfy
them—but, with respect. to the great body of the
people. the concessions stated. that night would, be
was convinced. be highly gratifyiag.—(Barr, hear.)
Mr. POISSONBY said, in the present state of dis-
tress and discontent, expedition in their proceedings
was the surest way by which they.conld convince the
people that they were intent On • diminishing their
burdeiss. He would then ask, which was more likely
to arrive at the termipation'of the projected inquiry,
I one or two Committees ? He was persuaded that the
• fate of Ma ooaat,7um to the.bands et dna Hemet and, to reader
I it capable of p the salvation of tbe cowry, it was ao.
usury, it was bollsprosable, that they dwelt mamba a dater-
; minnows to alleviate the burdens of the people as speedily as p -
sidle. The Noble Laid bad that night stated • what gave ben
(Mr. Poosouby) great pleases. lie bad aciaalatiid dams with
we &Oddest of td. Ulastriess Personage, at the bead at the
State to contrast his impawits, and cat dal? few things mold
produce muter bowie. Tbe Noble Lard bad also stated, that
persons Molding aka were willing to gm au a part of dish
I otoolutocuts, He approved of this detandeatisa—Uwy walk

LONDON.

SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 8. 1817.
PRICE OF STOCR4 THIS DAY A r TWELVE O'CLOCK :
Reduced ESI SS—(Cos. Ina SSII—Coos. for acc. 651
4 per Cent. i9H-5 per Cast. they 97ft
Exchequer Bilb, I is. i7s.pr.—lodla bonds, Sls. 325. pre.

The proceedings of last night, in the House ofl
Commons, will be read with uncommon interest by
all classes in the Empire, and we have no hesitation'
in as►erting will produce a wonderful and salutary
influence. They furnibh practical evidence, of what'
some ignorant, not to say designing men, are unveil-'
to believe, that our happy Constitution possesses,
is its details, the•means for applying constitutional
remedies to every evil that time, accident, or inatten.
lion may, at any time, have attached to the admini-
stration of our public affairs.
LordCArrcammom brought forward a statement's,
of our Naval and. Military Establishments, and the,
reductions that have already taken place and are in
progreu in these sources of expence ; and moved
for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into
the public iIICOII3B and,expenditate for the year 1817.1
• The Army, ib 1816, was 149,445 men; in 1817,
it is 123,702—reduction
.25,743. Tbe expense .last
year, exclusive of Ordnance, was 410,564,000—this
year it is 49,280,000.. The Ordnance last year cost
41,696,060--this year it is 41,246,000. Total
saving on Army, 41,784,000.

Navy, last year, 33,000 mem ; this year. 19,000
redaction, 14.000. It cost fur last year £10,114,000;
this year it will be di:6,897,000 saving, 43,717,000.

Miscellaneous services in 18:6, A 18,500,000; ditto
this 'sir, dl,soo,ooo—saving, set,ooo,ovo.

RECAPITULATION.

Army saving • - • .11.7.84,000
Navy ditto . . . . 5;±.43,,,w0
Ilivisikabous • ' • • 1.1,00.000
• Total slivillic:4o7o44"7o
• SUPPLY. '• •

. _
Am, • . • 41,050,00 n
Ceeinilweriat and lbirracb, Great Britain soo,oco
Ditto, ditto, Irdaall . . ioOpeo
Una irdioarbs • - 1,100,000
Ordelace • . - . 1,246,000
Nan • . . . 6,397,000
Minibuses, Gnat SAWA and Ireland 1,500,000 ,
• 816,373,000
' nos it appears that the Anty hat been reduce&
[about one sisth—the Navy ahnost one half. The

expenses far this year exceed eigkieen mil:kat; 2,11
lamentable to teU, the country cannot count on he
that amount of permanent revenue, after pay;ng ti
interest on our debt

However, to be sensible of out
one great step towards such a remedy as gir;
rate our maladies: and Nlinisters ar? enoth ;0 rr
tor fairly :eying about the kof ilcf.;rru
the work of Reform," for if tire rumple sc:Lri
PaiNce REGENT and his Nlinisters be fullowed !.p
it Otte t tu be, we 5114i1 have a practical. au
and a radicil Reform.

The PRINCE Reoeur has intimated to Parll we.,
shrough his Ministers, his intention to surrendei
fifth part of that portion of his income wtlic.l i•
netted with his own personal service. Tie aniq;!
of this fifth is calculated at Fay Thons.nd
a year. Ministers themselves have also mote 0:
intimated their intention to follow the noble ex airy
that has been given by the PRINCE R cur ; and it z;
proposed Committee shall faithfully discharge thse
duty, in recommending the sJppres.ion of all nit
Usury offices—and this be followed by the aboliti
of ail sinecures, the saving to the natiJn will be su
as will be soon found to operate beaeiiciAlly :a
storing vigour and health to enty thing cs,nucte
with our political existence. Let is hope that !t
nisters will in no wise damp the cheering rove,
they have held out to the coontry by the mockery .
a ballot rendered nmatory by previously prepar:
lists—let them not fe.ir that they will lose in cc.
fidence or in the power to carry any good the
sure, by themselves yielding confidence; an
all means let them convince the nation of t!.
own sincerity by Lot placing rap ptesoit whatev::i.
the Committee, the utility of whin:: place is d;
puted—this is Mr. 13113U011ANell idea,- and it is q
core _t. We would 'ae for going even fArdtt.
fur excluding every individual who receives an
salary whatever, but giving to the Committee •
power to hear and examine them all.

• From the few rental ks which we have acre 1,
Readers will easily perceive that the measures
posed, so far as they gro, have our hearty c lOC,/
rence. But will they meet all the demanJs of el
present exigencies ? We say no ; and that

another year shall pan Ministers will see that nr
more is wanted. The fact is this—the whole zoi

try (ekceiting the money-holders) is in such a st
of poverty that the people cannot purchase, as t
would in other circumstances, the articles which r
duties—hence a defic•cn:y of rover ue ; nor will n
taxes supply the want—lor the people can only To
their income. In one word, the people mart
made richer before health and vigour can be rtr,
red to the State ; but how ie this to be edected
By reducing the demands made upon them -
The utmost that can be effected by al: the rat

sues stated by LsT,l CAbTLitittACT, lessdj
the necessity fur new ik,releni. -Do ii• t deceive
selves : you cats lay no new bur.en on the p.•.'
that will produce you a single shilling of ;„.1,!:; ,
the revenue. The i.tct me and wages of eve! vcl
except the Stocklioldcrs have been reduced, an.t
have nobly 'hewn a disposition to reduce }ma ct
but you must. extend this du ough all the rantitictni
of every department—even your lowest Exci,etn•
your Soliieri, anJ your Sailors, should tie p
in some propoitioa to tl:e remuneration whit::
other employ meats eat obtain for their labour. N

Mill thus eff•ct your deliiermice. You twist re,
the legal rate of intert•st, or fiutiout some whet nw
av effectual to lessen the interest of the neiutiali:,'
To mince mattersw, ut.d be roily.—to put a ba:.lii
over our eyes woulJ Lc madness.

We have received the Pails PApers of Tues.!.
The foltowing extracts hum thr!ri c•onp!ett-iy con.:
diet the report which errs put in circul .'.::r')!
Munting Paper, of the KING'S &atm

PARIS. FEBRUARY 4.

Yesterday the Myth, perfectly recovered from kis zttatil
the gout, walked with the greatest ea:o aid irpur.
The Duke of ltscn[t.t►u and M. l'.tr.•2:a s, the :ixtvl
tire Seals, transacted lothness with his Ni AI: I 'I.

In the evening. Noi MAI tsTir rrcrith

The proceedings in the Ch canners are quite
of interest to the Enlish Ite.i.lot —they Are v-•
of a food nature.
The funds have got up agAio to 6), and f(a:•:J
steadily above it.
It is stated, in a private c:-Inmotsication from F
deans, that a serious dkturhance had ocrultd t..
in consequence of an embark itiun of tern fr;tn
port. The oppos',tion of the people was El
that the military were obliged to be called is i
number of persons were killed, and a great a'
wounded.

New York Papers to the IS,h linuary 1 I
rived. They announce the tecrio of wt•..;i
&cm St: Thomas's that the Paulo: Atm order
nerd MacsifititiNk Lad cotnpietely &Jetted the t
lists in three t engagements, the Le. of Is
was at Unari.

]
• *The Dtbates in Congress come down to the 1:
but they present nothing of importance.

At a General Court held at the East India House 7..terZril
Address was unattitorivaly voted to the Prince Refer', 0
late daring outrage against his perison, and ordered io
anted by the Chairman, Deputy Chairman, Court of D
Meyer (Mr. RANDLE JACKSON), Seconder (Mr
such Proprietors who may think proper to attend.

LONDON: Printe.l by. Lvvrt. Katerl Picket-Out.
rublubed thrre, and at tilt 3tar•Office, EcnoioAtv.

~c.
~~a.