Star.
London, England, 1819-11-30 00:00:00

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 30, 1819.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, NOVEMBER 29.

The Bari of Cnarnast took theoaths and his seat.
Their Lordships then adjourned for some time duringpisimm. ,
On the resuming of the House,
Lord SOMERS presented a Petition from the Churcherai-,
dens, Vestry, and others of the Parish of St. Pancras, praying
that some effectual measures may be adopted to check the grow-
ing evil of blasphemous and seditious publications, itc.--Or-
dered to lie on the table.
Earl GROSVENOR presented a Petition from a person
named Branford, a resident in the County of Lancaster, the
prayer of which, be observed, if complied with, may tend
grew some important lights on the transactione to which a
great portion of the public attention was now directed.
The Petition was then, on his Lordship's Motion, read. It
Peferred cid* to the statements set forth in the Documents
bid by authority before Parliament, respecting the transactions
at Manchester, and that part of the country. A great portion .
• their montents, he alleged, were unfounded, and tended to
laitisse sod calumniate a large body of his fellow subjects' as
tie Peddioner earnestly requested he might be permitted to
pewee by evid.-nce at their Lordships' Bar. b Illustrating this
proposition, the Petitioner adverted to certain parts ht what was
dinged to have takenavdaee at those Meetings, and which, in
like manner, he was unfounded.—The Petition was or-
ad to lie on the t le.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reference to his b-
lended Motion of to-morrow on the State of the Nation,wiebed
to be informed, whether the sum, which it had been arranged
should be paid to the Bank, was yet liquidated?
The Earl of LIVERPOOL explained, that arrangement
were made, by which the whole of the Sys millions would be
liquidated by the tth of April.
Lord LILFORD wished the Noble Marquis to inform,
whether his intended proposition of to-morrow would refer to
the internal state of the country,* to the state of the Nation
generally?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied, that his intended
Motion would refer to the state of the Nation generally. •

TRAVERSING INDICTMENTS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in pursuance of
what he had stated on a former occasion respecting,
this subject, introduced a Bill for the better preven.
tion of delays in the administration of justice, and
particularly with respect to a point which, on more
mature consideration, he conceived to be of extreme
importance. His Lordship proceeded to explain,
technically, the grounds on which the Bill pro-'
ceeded, and the rights which, in certain cases, brit
more particularly of misdemeanour, defendants pos-
sessed of postponing their pleas until so distant a pe-
riod, as, not %infrequently, had the effect of defeating
the ends of justice. Viewing the subject as be did,
he conceived his duty to the House and to the Pub-
lic, called upon him to submit some proposition for
their Lordships' adoption, which would tend to comp•
teract that which certainly had an injurious effect.
He would now propose its first reading, and when
their Lordships thought proper to read it a second
time, he should, more fully, explain the grdbncl- and
principle upon which the Bill proceeded.
Loed HOLLAND observed, he did not now wish
to enter into any discussion of die subject, though he
certainly felt it to be one of no small importance 'as he understood the Noble and
_Learned Lord's
measure, it would go to affect all cases of misde-
meanour ; but the difference should be considered
between those cases where the delay was occasioned
by the defendant's postponing his parlance, and
those where it proceeded from the natural course of
law. He wished to know whether it was meant the
Bill should go to oust the imparlance generally, and
whether the whole of the Misdemeanour Law was to
be affected by it ? and, at the same time, whether
the principle was to extend to those cases where ex-
officio informations were filed by the Attorney Gene-
ral ? With respect to the object of rendering trials
more speedy, it was one which should be considered
with reference to the nature of the accusation. Upon
the whole, the Noble Lord thought the subject of the
Bill one of considerable importance, and one that
called for a particular and deliberate consideration.
The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke briefly in ex-
planation. What was meant was, to call upon the
defendant to plead, and it should be in 'the sound
discretion of the Court to decide, whether the case
was of that nature that was fit to be postponed or
not? from what was-submitted on the point, to its
consideration. No alteration was made by the Bill
in the powers of the Attorney General.
The Bill was then read the first time, ordered to
be printed, and the Lords to be summoned for Thurs-
day, on a motion for its second reading.
INTERNAL STATE OF THE COUNTRY.
Viscount SIDMOUTH, pursuant to notice, ad-
dressed their Lordships at some length on this sub-
ject, and stated the nature of those measures which
were deemed necessary to be proposed, with reference
to it. In the Speech of his Royal Highness the Prince
Regent, at the opening of the Session, he was pleased
to declare, that he felt it his duty to press on the
speedy attention of Parliament, the consideration of
such measures as were most likely to counteract 4nd
do away a system which, if persisted in, would inevi-
tably bring confusion and ruin on the country. His
Royal Highness's confidential servants felt it incum-
bent on them speedily to bring forward those mea-
sures for the consideration of Parliament, which they
deemed most likely to arrest the progress of the evils
adverted to in the Speech from the Throne. He now
rose to communicate the nature of those measures to
their Lordships. They were so framed, he thought,
as not to go beyond the necessity of the case, and at
the same time not to circumscribe the rights or pri-
vileges of the subject, farther than what was deemed
to be connected with, or due to the paramount con-
sideration of the safety of the State. It was unneces-
sary now, he felt, to enter into any detailed deicrip-
ticn of those various dangers, the existence of which
was universally known and admitted—(Hear, hear).
A conspiracy, it was apparent, existed against all the
Civil and Religious Establishments and Institutions
of the Country ; in fact, to subvert the Whole fabric
of the Constitution in Church and State--(Heat.) In
considering the causes which led to such a state of
things, he believed there were few who did not feel,
that it was from the operations of the Press much of
the evil complained of proceeded, and that the country
bad been brought into the state in which it nine
was—a MCC which, at best, was one of great diffi-

culty and danger. Prom that Press issued those de•
testable attempts to rob mankind of all the hopes
and spiritual consolation they derived from the pre-
cepts of Religion ; and it was no less notorious that
its machinations were equally directed against the
Laws and Constitution of the Country. The great
charaejristic of 4 free Press was, that no interference
should take place with respect to publications that
were not injurious to the morals, the peace, or the
religion, of society. In the Bill relating to this part
of the subject, which it was intended to submit to
Parliament, those great principles were not invaded.
The principle of interference after publication took
place, was that on Which the framers of the Bill pro-
ceeded. It was proposed not to visit, in the first in-
stance, with increased 'punishments, the publishers of
blasphemous or libellous matter ; but in the event of
a repetition of a conviction for such offences, that
they should be visited - with an accretion of punish-
ment, which was proposed to be that of prolonged
imprisonment, banishment, or transportation, ac-
cording to the judgment of the Court. It was fur-
ther proposed, that,in case of a second conviction, a.
'seizure of the copies should be authorised of such
matter as was adjudged to be seditious or blasphe-
mous, with some provisions for subsequent restoration
with reference to the event of an arrest of judgment.--
With respect to the principle of another intended Bill,
it was acknowledged to be somewhat deficient in
principle from that which he had described—that for
imposing a duty on such obnoxious publications,
and this it was proposed should attach upon a given
number of sheets, to an amount equivalent to that
now imposed upon Newspapers. This was not, how-
ever, done in the spirit of a fiscal regulation, but
with a view to counteract the baneful tendency of
cheap publications, which disseminate poison through-
out the country, and corruption in the minds of all
who peruse them. A measure of the kind was called
for by the indispensible necessity of checking the
progress of such publications. It was further pro-
posed, that all persons who should be en in
printing publications of that description, sirogueld be
called upon for the production of some securities,
which may answer for the discharge of such penal-
ties as may be imposed in consequence of the parties
offending against the law. With respect to another
part of the subject, legislative provisions were ititro-
duced to guard against those attempts, in many cases
but too successful, of bringing together vast numbers
of persons in seditious assemblages in different parts
of the kingdom. As the law now stood, any
posed persons might call together assemblies of that
description, by issuing placards, at any place and at
any time they pleased. The injurious consequences
which resulted were unhappily too notorious. The
display of flags or other symbols, whether in itself
legal or not, he meant not then to discuss; but these
had latterly, it was well known, contributed to in-
duce consequences little short, if not fully amounting
to rebellion ; and he thought, in any state of society,
there would be but huh chance of preserving the
public tranquillity' if such practices were tolerated.
What was proposed with respect to Public Meetings,
would not interfere with the undoubted right of the
subject to petition Parliament or the Throne, or of
the discussion of grievances, whet those grievances
were truly stated. But the object for which those
Meetings were lately intended, was well known, and
the baneful prartices of itinerant demagogue orators
on such occasions. To guard against such evils, it
was proposed that in all cases of Public Meetings, no-
tice should be given, signed by seven householders, to
some Magistrate within the district; that it should be
declared illegal for any nto attend, unless he
was usually resident in the parish or township ; and
farther, to give Magistrates a power, under certain
limitations, of appointing the time and place of meet-
ing. Such were the leading provisions of the intended
measures. There was still another important considera-
tion: it was not only by means of seditious and blasphe-
mous publications, or the insidious practices of dema-
gogues, that the objects of the obnoxious persons were
attempted to be carried into effect,but the state of the
existing laws was such as to embolden them to ad-
vise the attempt of accomplishing their desizas and
purposes by of arms. On this part of the sub-
ject, no possible doubt could exist. With a view to
such objects, a system of instruction in military
exercises, and the use of fire-arms was established.
Of what had been done iit character and extent in
these respects, there was incontestible evidence. No
less than thirty of the depositions applied to those
circumstances. The mode in which these were taken
was dictated either by the obvious expediency or the
necessity of the case. The whole shewed the extreme
danger of the practice. Preparatory to the Meetings
in August, the practice of drilling was extensive,
and many of the bodies assembled for the purpose
were numerous; same exercised one hundred persons.
Under such circumstances, a check upon the Meet"
ings would not be effectual, if not followed tip .by
another provision respecting drilling and training
in some parts of the Country, and respecting, the
possession of arms. In the manufacturing distracts,
where large portions of the disaffected were it arms,
regulations of the kind were peculiarly necessary.
It was, therefore, meant to empower the Magistrates,
upon well-grounded suspicion that such were in-
tended for purposes injurious to the State, to take
possession of such arms, and to place them in some
place of safety, until further steps should be taken
with respect to therii at the Quarter Sessions. Such
were the outlines of the intended measures, and the
principle upon which they proceeded. It was the
anxious wish of the Prince Regent's Government to
restore conciliation and confidence, but they were
averse to holding out delusive expectations. In some
cases; however, a lenient system of measures would
be injurious. They would gladly attend to any sug-
gestions calculated really arid practically to alleviate
the distresses of the suffering People. But he re-
peated, that under the immediate circumstances,
concessions would 'only tend to aggravate the danger,
especially at a time when the o,onetittatinn was more

n'r•

'Ai CB SVAEMPENC F.
_ -

seriously endengered tbaier any period *since the
succession of the House of Brunswick. Upon' the
; whole, they were called upon by every tie td take
every justifiable means in their power to preeerve the
real liberties, the prosperity, sad the inestimable Con-
stitution of *e Country. •
The Bills. .presented by the Noble Secretary 44
State were, that respecting the seizure of arras, asd.
that which respected seditious and blaspheme** pubs
lications, which, on his Lordship's motions, Wee
shortly read pro.fortoa, ordered to be primed, said ott
the suggestion of their second readings for Tinetiday,
Earl GREY expressed his almost uaqualified
approbation of the system ielicy proposed by hii.-
nisters in the present ciiti• circumstances of thO
country. He deprecated the hurrying oa a dint*
sion of such extreme importante on so early a day
as Thursday, muds of which sitting would peobably
be occupied by 'the important alteration in the lave
proposed this evening by the Noble Lord est tbe
Woolsack. It would be impossible duly to discuss
the measures just proposed on that evening. No man. -
would more willingly concur in measures likely to
avert the pending dangers than himself; but for one.,
he thought the proposed measures would go rather
to irritate and increase than to diminish the evils. It
was on the causes. of the present state of the country
that he differed, chiefly, from the Noble Viscount.—
In his conscience he believed, that no system of force,
terror, or coercion, would tend to restore the coun-
try to its once enviable state; instead of alleviating
the distresses, what was proposed would entail ruin
and destruction upon the country. The restraints
about to be imposed on the Press he. (Lord Grey)
heard with the utmost dismay—(Hear, hear).—They
were absolutely incompatible . with • that freedom
which the Noble Secretary admitted had produced
so much adrantage to this country ; which had pro-
tected those. Institutions, and diffused that spirit
; which constituted its boast and its glory—( Hear,
het:N.—The Noble Secretary had stated, that sedi-
tious and blasphemous publications were one main,
source of the dangers with which the country was
now threatened ; but had he ascertained that the de-
struction of the freedom of the Press was the only,
mode of checking its abuses ; and had he reflected on
the evils which restrictions would bring along with
them?—(Hear,. hear).—To the freedom of the Press
this country owed the preservation of its liberty,,
which could not be long maintained without such an
ally ; and with its liberty, its strength, its happiness,
and its glory. When, therefore, he saw a design to
impose new .restraints -on the Press, by enacting
severe additional punishments in cases of second con- •
victions, and requiring securities before publication,
he. could not but be alive to the evils which the men..
sure would produce. He was alarmed when he re-
flected how it would raise the ',rice of knowledge,.
and impede the progress of education to the poor*
(Hear, hear).—It took away the protection allowed,
to free discussion, and aimed a blow at one of our
most valuable rights, such as the most arbitrary
Minister, in the most arbitrary times, never pro-
posed to Parliament, and against which he (Lora
'Grey) would never cease to protest—(Hear, hear)..—
But there was another view of the case hich ren-
dered the proposed restraints the more obnoxious, by
'taking away all pretext for them. The Noble Secre-
• tary now demanded the enactment of new laws for
the protection of the Government, and the mainte-
nance of public order; but had the old laws been en-
forced, and foupd inefficient for that object?-(Hear,
hear).--The Noble Lord, before he asked for aJdi.
tibnal restrictions, was bound to shew that those
seditious and blasphemous works which had been so
long in circulation had been made subject to the
most rigorous exercise of the existing laws of which
they were susceptible—(Hear, hear).—He (Lord
Grey) knew that the Law Officers of the Crown had,
in one or two instances, prosecuted, without being
able to procure a conviction ; but be knew, at .the
same time, that some horrible and disgusting-publica-
tions, publications directly recommending assassina-
tion—publications supporting principles contrary to.
all law and order, had not been prosecuted. For
two years the most seditious doctrines had been pub-
lished in a work alluded to in the Papers on the
table—Sherwin's Political Register; and yet no at-
tempt was made to check their spread.• Such works
had poisoned the public mind, if the good sense-of
the people would allow them to be poisoned by such
offensive trash ; but no endeavoiir was made to sup-
press them by the existing laws—(Hear, hear).—The
Noble Secretary, therefore, before he came to ask for
new enactments, was bound to shew that such offen-
ders had been prosecuted as theronghto , iirisrgset thi
existing law was insufficient for their coercion• and
punishment—(Hear,- hear).—Feeling, as be did, on
these points, and looking as he did, with dismay on
the proposed system of Government, which would
increase the danger it was meant to avert, he could
not but take the earliest opportunity of expressing
-his sentiments although he did not mean to enter at
large into the -separate measures: those' measurel
comprehended restraints on Public Meetings, and oo
the. Liberty of the Press, and put into the power
of. the Magistrates to deprive the Subject of these
arms which he might have for his own defeat
The justification of such restraints rested on the Ps,
pars which had been presented to the Home s—and
which. were considered by his Majesty's Ministers as
disclosing a great extent of danger. Now, he was
' willing to allow that these Papers, incomplete as be
maintained them to be, and requiring many addil
dolts and explanations, did prove a coasiderable et.
tent .of slang,: but a danger arising Bore the disi.
tress cif the le.--a.distressainotintiog to absolnup
hunger, and admitted by the Magistrates thenseknie
in their first accounts, as the cause of the dsager.."
That there were persons who took advartneof tbli
distress to inflame the discontents of the 141irp, bb
watwilling to allow ; but, he said, there !Ms noevis
406, either is the Papers on thetableraraiadmark
istual state of the country, to convince blastbat any
44paRplracy,„ against law
1.• aad bad ?POMO,*
• .t -.77 -7.