Star.
London, England, 1811-03-05 00:00:00

,
«


.01 Foetal .
tors the Attorniesfixettera wore the moat did net think was the cafe ell *he present oetasion, tries g therefore it belowd not to nritain to con._
indulgent, and were the documents of the last igs and he therefore felt it his duty to oppose the motion. mince or to do a similar proceeding.
years to be laid before the House, it would appear Lord HOLLAND repliedat great length, and Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he had found that
that much misconception prevailed upon this point, combated the various arguments that had been ad- there were many things of much importance, whith
The nature of the prosecutions for libels differed from duced by the several Noble Lords who had spoken the Charge d'Affaires of America could not meddle-
that of moat others, and gave rise to circumstances against his motion. In conclusion he observed, if a i with at all, He had no mission to settle about the
peculiar to itself. He had known an instance where Bill was not brought up from the other House upon IChesapeak, a most material point between the two
a hiiel in an indictment as placed on the record, was the subject of Informations ex !Piot he should himself Inations, besides several others of manifest importance
afterwards published, in which case the Attorney-Ge- move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Act to the prosperity of our country. lt is very strange,
nerd was obliged to recur to a commen.urate mode now in existence, on that subject. ihe said, that we should please ourselves, and have
of proceeding. With respect to the case of lenity . The question was then loudly called for, strangers , Gentlemen to please us too, with the dear belief of a
particularly pointed at, the author was given up.— withdrew, and the House divided. The numbers ' speedy termination of oter differences with the United
There were few instances, his Lordship observed, were as follow :—Contents 12—Non-contents Oa— States of Atnerica, while, in America, they dulged
where judgment was suffered to go by default, that Majority 12.—Adjourned at Eleven o'Clock. in no such ideas, and had reasons to think the direct
the parties,were brought up for judgment. For his --e--- contrary. The proceedings between the two coun-
part, while in the office • alluded to, be preferred fol- HOUSE OF COMMONS. tries would soon be known by the printinn of the
lowing up the law against the printers and publishers, It being the last day appointed for the receiving of Petitions American papers, and he should think that the like
which he found the most effectual way. He thought, for Private Bills, the Speaker took the Chair at ten minutes past conduct in our Government would be a praiseworthy
worich.
wAegeereaatßpilrr
fseof private bush iness then came on, amongst anticipation of that knowledge which, when alone
with respect to the Noble Baron's motion, there should
lace ofreSmithfield,
be some prima facie case made out, before the House which was read a first enlarging
dme,ansd orderede arkest-op second
could with prrpriety accede to it. As to professions time, and another for widening and improving of Temple Bar, , for. America could not be blamed for her publishing
of regard fir the genuine liberties of the people, er I which, after being read a first time, was ordered to a second ' those papers—whatever belonged to the public wel-
i Threading. The Bill for the erection of a Bridge over the river , fare it was necessary for the public to know, told their
for the inestimable Constitution under which they
;and
ther es
id
oanfid
or first
Journeymen time, wa s orderedarroyo
st, o
Regulation
read a
second stimoen;
lived, he woald make no professions—a man's ac- I sec !1 Suffrage or disavowal was stamping it with credit or
tions best spoke his real sentiments ; where his actions Bill was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading. displeasure. The voice of the public called for a
belied his professions, the latter naturally would not PAPERS FROM THE MINT. I knowledge of proceedings which related to tie public
interests; and he thou
be believed; by the former he would wish to be A person from the Mint produced papers relating to the mar- 'ht that such communications
judged. , ket price of standard gold tor a certain period.—Ordered to lie . should, without delay, be
upon the table, and to be printed.made, and therefore he in-
Earl GROSVENOR spoke very briefly in support i timated, that on Friday first he would move that such
MOTION POSTPONED.
of the motion, and expressed his opinion that the i
I papers should be laid before the House.
ty-two cases occurring in the ° tioLnorrediatFis
OLICESTONE said, that be would postpone his mo- i EAST-INDIA COMPANY.
circumstance of for
g to the information ex elele, from Friday to Wedgies- 1
three last years out of fifty-two, which took place in day se'nnight. I Mr. CREEVEY rose to move for certain Papers
the whole interval, of itself formed a sufficient prima BOOKSELLERS, ETC. PETITION. i explanatory of the Affairs of the East-India Corn-
facie case to induce their Lordships to adopt the mo- Mr. H. MARTIN brought up a Petition from the Booksellers, pany. The Hon. Gentleman's object in moving was,
%ion. Printers and Publishers, praying for amendment of the act of the to convince the House that the Comnany there not
Lord REDESDALE observed, that in general 39th of George lll.—Ordered to lie on the table. justified in declaring a dividend to the amount of
Mr. H. MARTIN intimated, that on this day fortnight he
the Attornies-General were responsible in such cases would move for leave b • • to ring in a Bill to explain and amend an
di630,000 on their capital. Such a proceeding, he
as those adverted to. These Officers sometimes re- act of the 39th of his present Majesty. contended, was, on the part of the Directors, a vitt-
cuffed to Ministers on political points, but as to the BANK OF IRELAND. , lation of the law, by which it was expressly provided,
legal proceedings they were held responsible. With Mr. GEORGE JOHNSTONE moved for papers concerning that the Directors, should not declare a dividend but
respect to the motion of the Noble Baron, he did not ithei is sr oAf Bank-notes for a certain period from the Batik of out of the nett proceeds of their annual concerns.
Agreed t .
conceive its object to be any charge against, or crimi- re an PAPERS ON THE MADRAS ARMY. ' Now what was the actual state of their affairs ? In.
nation of the Law Officers of the Crown, but for the . Colonel ALLAN moved for copies of papers which should stead of having any nett proceeds, they, in point of
ulterior purpose of introducing some ulterior regale.. have passed between Sir George Barlow, Lord Minto and the fact, had a deficiency of more than two millions, and
tion in the existing law. He would ask, was the press East India Company in ISM relating to the transactions of the lately had come to Parliament for the loan of one
-now free, or was it not ? He was sure it would be Madras Army, and of the resignation of officers, and their sus- million and a half. The Hon. Gentleman referred
pension in the service of the Company.
acknowledged that it not only was free, but that a to the 9th and 10th William, which (so jealous were
IRISH CONVENTION.
considerable degree of licentiousness existed. This • mr.:—.
ruNSONEY said, that not being in the House on Friday Parliament at that day of the Company) provided
licentiousness it was impossible to check unless by last, when Mr. Wellesley Pole, the Secretary for Ireland, was that they should not declare a dividend unless their
-prosecutions conducted in the same manner as at pre- present, he had not the opportunity of asking several questions profits would bear it. The next Act was the 6th of
sent. If there were any specific restrictions to the of much importance, which he assuredly wisidd have done had he Queen Anne, at which period the Company had ad-1
liberty of the press, which it was the intention of the beenrresenttwe
Houseiththe lin u
on.bed
Gentleman.
He would, therefore, vanced £3,200,000 to Government. In that Act .
Pr ar: el) ee Oe to b f
correspondenC o e
which haaldntealkte,ntopmlacve fe
bertwtheeenwhmolee there were some clauses for securing the creditors.
Noble Lord to have removed, he should have brought
forward a direct motion to that effect, instead of nicer- Wellesley Pole and the Members of the Irish Catholic Colleen- In 1765 they got the Carnatic, and then great altera.
ing for • papers which could have no connection with dm . tions were made in the dividends. The Public claimed
such an object. Upon the whole, being of opinion AMERICAN CHARGE D'AFFAIRES a participat:on with the Company—a species of corn.
that the law, as it stood, 'maintained the freedom of : Mr. WHITBREAD said, that before the House pact was entered into between them, and the Act of i
the press at the same time that it provided in the most should hurry into its specified business, he would wish Appropriation of the Surplus of the Revenue was
effectual manner against its licentiousness, he should to speak a few words, and ask a question or two of made. In this state matters stood till 1781, when the
vote against tke motion. i the Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex- funds of the Company fell deficient, and they came'
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that at this chequer) who was then opposite to him. It had bten to Parliament for leave to make a dividend of eight
late hour he would not trespass long upon their Lord- held out to the country in his Majesty's Speech, that per cent. From this time to 1805, they actually had
ships' attention ; but if his Noble Friend should take , every hope was entertained, and that every exertion no surplus profits, but, in consequence of various ex-
the sense of the House upon kis motion, he would . was then making, to conciliate the-United States of peditions, were at that time deficient in their revenue,
certainly vote for it, and was anxious to guard that , America and the kingdom of Great Britain. He had their expenditure having exceeded their receipts up-
vote against misconception, feeling as he did, after heard rumours much to the contrary a good many . wards of seven millions; and, from various causes of
what had followed the speech of his Noble Friend, , days ago, which lie had mentioned to the Honourable the same nature, they were now fifteen millions worse
that there was a necessity for such precaution. He : Chancellor of the Exchequer, and who had satisfied than nothing. In moving for these papers, he wished
was aware that the power of proceeding by inform- I him in stating that the Americas Minister had left to know the ground of making a dividend, which they
tion was one that could not be parted with without! behind him his Charge d'Affaires, possessed of full had done, of ten and a half per cent. at a time when
great inconvenience and injury to justice. The office'. powers to negotiate on the part of his own Govern- their revenue was defective to the extent he had
which he had the honour of filling under his " ^ I ment for the welfare of both, and that our Minister staled ? When these papers were furnished, he should
" '

, Majesty
•convinced him of the importance-of such a power in
the Crown in cases of revenue ; but his Noble Friend
had said nothing which went to question the proprie-
ty of it ; all he censured was the improper application.
And how had his Noble Friend proceeded ? Ye bot-
tomed himself upon the opinions of Lord Hale and
Sir William Blackstone, which opinions were not con-
tradicted ; for having attended with the greatest anxi-
• ety to hear the sentiments of the Noble and Learned
Lord opposite (Lord Ellenborough) with regard to
the authority of such men, he found that the Noble
and Lrarned Lord was too much taken up with an-/
swering what he had been pleased to put into the
mouth of his Noble Friend, to attend to their ideas
upon the subject. He should feel himself justified,
therefore, no judgment having been pronounced to the
contrary, to cnnsider it a right opinion of Justicej
BLtckstone, which stated, that in no case except mis- I
demeanour should this power be resorted to. The I
great increase of such prosecutions had been stated by
his Noble Friend ; and the circumstance of that in-
crease was a sufficienr ground far investigating whe-
ther it was to be ascribed to the increase of enormous
offences which could admit of no delay, or from the
application of the law to cases not justified by the I
principle. The -motion of his Honourable Friend
was therefoie a proper motion, as it went to make the
grounds of the law clear to the public, to shew that
it was fixed upon true and invariable principles, and
not subject to the arbitrary exercise of any Govern-
ment or individual. He thought that Parliament
should not sit by when such a deviation appeared,
without instituting some inquiry ; be thought that it
444.. ear and silently permit a practice to
proceed to such an extent as might eventually super-
sede the institution of Grand Juries, without ascer-
taining whether that practice was the effect of nece-
sity,
or any less justifiable cause. His Noble Friend
did not call upon the House to take his information.
Be stated what he believed to be true, and asked for
that information which would enable the House to
judge whether there was sufficient in the case to jus-
tify any further proceedings. Upon the subject of
that further proceeding, he (the Marquis of Lans.-1
downe) would not pledge himself to any opinion, nor
was he required to do so. All he wanted was to have
that which should be the subject of every legal and
political proceeding—the truth investigated and as-
certained, and to see that liberty preserved which was
only to be preserved now in the same.manner as here-
tofore, by the vigilance and suspicion of such men as
his Noble Friend. • •
The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not agree to the
motion of the Noble Lord, until he was shewn some
case of abuse which would constitute a fair ground
for proceeding to inquiry. He was ready to admit,
that it was essential to the peace of the country that
the law should not only he justly and fairly admini-
stered, but that the.mode of its administration should
be beyond suspicion.
.On the other hand, he thought

Plenipotentiary for America had given great pro- think it his duty to cill-the attention of the House to
mises of a speedy termination of the existing differ- the subject on some future day. The Honourable
ences. On that most important subject he had made Gentleman moved for—is A statement of the amount
much inquiry, and had found, by an evidence quite • of Dividend, and the rate per cent. upon the Ca-
incontestille, that instead of differences being on the pital Stock of the East India Company, declared at
edge of termination the hopes of it was further away the Midsummer Quarter, 1810, &c."
than ever. He would wish the Hon. Gentleman (the Mr. ASTELL was not disposed to withhold the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) to agree to complete papers from the Honourable Gentleman, which, when
copies being taken of all the correspondence which produced, he could assure the House, would lay suf-
had taken place on that important subject between ficient grounds for disproving the assertions which the.
the American Government and ours. The American Honourable Gentleman had so profusely made re-,
Ministry had published all theirs for the satisfaction specting the state of the affairs of the East India Com-
of their country, and our proceedings would soon be patsy. It would then be seen the situation of the
known by that means, so that the present wish he had Company was not such as described.
' uttered for seeing those papers would very soon be Lord FOLKSTONE thought the subject to which
satisfied from another quarter of the world. Should his Honourable Friend (Mr. Creevey) had called the
the Chancellor he pleased to agree with the moving attention of the Directors of the East-India Company
for those papers, it would relieve the House from was worthy of a more detailed answer. The state-
much future trouble in examining them when they ment which had been made, he wished to remind the
were hurried with other and equally important busi- Honourable Director was from an exposition of their
ness. own affairs, which actually made a balance against
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER them of fitceen millions.
replied, that the American Ambassador had an audi- Mr. GRANT said, that the exposition of the Court
ence of leave, and that he had left behind him his of Directors did'not warrant the affirmation of :he
Charge d'Affaires, who would carry on the diploma- Hon. Gentleman nor the Noble Lord. They were
tic part of the mission ; so that the Hon. Gentleman only correct in one point, and that was in the amount
had partly mistaken the meaning which he (the of the debt in which the Company was plunged; but
Chancellor of the Exch.equerl had wished to convey. when they would glance their eyes at the noble and
He could assure that Hon. Gentleman, than though immense territories, and other acquisitions which had
differences were not then cemented between the two been accumulated in India, we would soon see that
countries, he was convinced that there would be a to value them at twenty millions was not beyond their
very happy termination to be expected seen. The worth. The Company, he said, had been much in-
Hon. Gentleman had inquired if there were any jured by the mode of the Hon. Gentlerrian's proceed-
objections on his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) ings, as well as by his speech. The country had found
part to fu'rnish the House with copies of all the cor- much benefit from the Company, who had always
respondence between Lord Wellesley and the Ante- met with a poor return, and now they were about to
rican Minister. He had objections, and weighty ones add injury to neglect.
too, to such a hasty and inconsiderate measure. The Lord A. HAMILTON contended that. dividends
American Government had undoubtedly acted very could only be given on profits but that the Company
forwardly in making such communications to their had proceeded to pay themselves before they would
country as the Hon. Gentleman had stated. Such pay the public. He supported the motion.
publications of penditig negotiations certainly tended Mr. ADAM said, that India was a warlike empire
to hurt the important subject under discussion, and as well as a commercial one, and her arms sustained
were highly prejudicial to the established political her commerce, therefore it was necessary her expences
'confidence of nations. It was much better for the should be paid, which ensured the means of her exis-
country that her hest interests were concealed from tense- It was the Company's funds which stretched
proclamation to the world by public discussion, for the British power over India, and the Parli,.merit did
then measures were thwarted and heavily animadver- right in voting the sum which was stated.
ted on, and the parties began to haven mutual cold- Mr. THORNTON observed, that much as the
ness and distrust of others' truth and good faith. Per- Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Creevey) had lamented
sons were always forward enough to carry their own the miserable condition of the East-India Company,
arguments far beyond the limits which the interests he would be inclined to think that the Honourable
of the country prescribed to private opinion--(Hoer, Gentleman would have no objections to some of their
hear.) He would therefore oppose the bringing for. bonds and to a little' pittance of their territory. It
ward of papers not finally closed, which were warm was impossible to go ini discussions without docu-
and recent from the hands of the negotiators, and assents, therefore he would forbear ; but he could not
• could not be produced without offering an injury to resist saying the Company were ttinch on the advance
' the political reverence which we had maintained to- • since last year.
wards our negociating Ministers; and should Ame- « Sir HENRY MONTGOMERY observed, that
rica, as the lion. Gentleman had stated, publish her athose who would promote inquiry, v..ere among the
y
papers, it would be an act of much harm to the nem. best friends the Compan possessed.
rail confidence of nations, and would retard the bud-. Mr.' HENRY SMITH contended, that the Coro-
nets of negociatioa, and offer violence to the affection „piny, under every disadvantage, were perfectly justi.
which ' lad so long • subsisted WOMB almrpre,colus• flails," their commercial profits in making the diri-

r' .

deed they had made. is would be a IrrnSl 'Waist
of common sense, and evidence of his diiitrust 'as to
the quantum of that faculty possessed by the Howe,
were he to assert that the.national debt amounted to
a sum the pressure of which the nation was utrlble ti •
support. Yet Gentlemen, in the statement r:)ey
made with respect to the affairs of the Vast India-,
Company, seemed to have been influenced by views
to those which might have led him to hazard such an
assertion ; in both cases a transien- glance created
alarm which investigation would cagily dispel, where.
ever neither interest nor prejudice lurked to resist its
operation.
Lord FOLKSTONE read a document in support
of certain statements he had made, and the propriety
of which had been called•in question in the course of
the debate. Motion agreed to.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked if the Hon. Gentle.
man opposite intended to give notice, as he had been
led to suppose he would, of a motion for the renewal
of the Company's charter : to which
Mr. DUNDAS answered in the affirmative.

LINEN MANUFACTORY IN IRELAND.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to move for leave
to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of an Act of the
3cl of his present Majesty, for the better regulation of
the Linen Manufacture in Ireland, as was found to
defeat rather than promote the ptlrpose for which it had
been originally designed. He observed, that a peti.
Con, praying the repeal- in question, had been trans.
mitted to the House, by the very class of people in
Ireland for the protection of whose property the law
had been originally framed, it having been found
rather to produce impunity in the offender than lead
to his punishment. The Irish were a people very ho-
nourably distinguished by humane and generous feel.
ings. Laws of inordinate severity were even more
frequently counteracted in Ireland, by the reluctance
of Juries to convict, than in England ; a considerably
greater number of acquittals took place in the former
country in proportion to the number of indictments.
Sir JOAN NEWPORT coincided in opinion with
his Hon. Friend who had just sat down, as to the po-
licy of repeal in the present instance. When a crimi-
nal, if convicted, is doomed to a punishment sn vastly
disproportioned to his offence, if such punishment be
not intercepted by feelings which it would be a libel
on our species to assert were not common at least in
undergoing it, he would have more pity due to the
martyr than the abhorrence which should attend on
guilt. if guilt and punishment were duly propor•
tinned, we should frequently see mankind eagerly
unite to procure conviction of offenders in cues where
now they rather hope for acquittal.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY then moved for leave
to bring in a Bill of similar import, affecting this part
of the United Kingdom.

WIVES AND CHILDREN/ OF SOLDIERS,.
Mr. FULLER presented a petition from some of
his constituents in Sussex, stating that improper uml
was made of monies levied for the use of wives and
children of soldiers; that consequently several parishes
had been subjected to fresh levies not a little burtherta
some, and praying relief.
The SECRETARY at WAR said, that Govern.
ment was perfectly aware of the existence of the evils
and would endeavour to provide a suitable remedy.
Petition ordered to lie on the table.
PENSIONS OF FOREIGN MINISTER&
Mr. LEECH rose to move for leave to bring in
a Bill to repeal a statute affecting the interests of di-
plomatic agents. He observed, that it was of essential
consequence to the interests of the country, that men
engaged in the various functions of diplomacy, should
be men of a respectable rank in life, and of highly
finished education. Was it reasonable, he asked, to
require that such persons should detach themselves
from a profession or other pursuit at home, which
might afford them a prospect of a permanent and lu-
crative establishment to serve their country, content
with present remuneration, and subject to be turned
adrift hereafter without the means of subsistence If
this were to be the termination of their labour, how
.could it be expected that Government could obtain per-
sons in sufficient numbers,andwith therequisiteendow.
ments? But laying aside for the present all conside-
rations as to the impolicy of reducing the standard
of diplomatic capacity, he would confine himself to
laying a claim for justice on behalf of those indivi-
duals against whose rights an ex part facto law had
I been enacted. In the Reform Bill of 1782,a certain '
proportion of the emoluments of every diplomatic
agent was assigned for his reward after the period of
his service ; and must not every individual who en-
gaged in a diplomatic employment subsequently have
considered the Legislature as pledged to him for the
remuneration by which he has been, as it were, in-
vited into office ; but the act of last Session goes to
change altogether the nature of the employment, so
that no person can now accept of it with safety, who
is not furnished with some other source of subsistence.
Whatever the House might in its wisdom decide with
respect to such persons as seatin future engage in
diplomatic situations, he trusted they would not per-
mit the retractive power of the law in question to re-
main.

Mr. ABERCROMBIE could not approve of his
Honourable Friend's view c,f the effects of Mr. Burke's
Bill of 1782. The principle upon which he went
seemed to him altogether incorrect, and tending, if
admitted, to give stability to every evil which an erro-
neous judgment in the Legislature might have once
sanctioned. He would instance a case wherein it '
might have been applied with the most pernicious
effect. Some years since the Commander-in-Chief
had made a salutary regulation with respect to the
army, by virtue of which it became necessary that an
officer should be of a certain time standing each rank
before he could ascend to the one above it ;—must
not the officers of that day have complained of in.
justice with as much propriety as was to be found in
the complaint made by his Honourable Friend on the
I part•of the diplomatists; but what would have been
thought or said if they had done so ? He hoped the
notice of this case alone would suffice for the exposure
of the principle.
Mr.WILBERFORCE thought adistinction should
be made between persons who had devoted any con-
siderable portion of their'time to diplomatic employ,
ment, and those whose services did not extend beyond
the period of a year or two.
Mr -,ER •

it was equally essential-before any insinuations were
thrown out, intimating a departure from such a fair
administration of the law, that the most positive and!
kudisPutabluviramla *auk bur established. Such he

WC penou In a ycat atvut
Mr. FULLER was of opinion, that any minor ft%
gitiatiOTTS should be, left to Government.—Motioa
agreed to.
PILICITIMAIRT BOOM
Mr. SECREUR:Y- RYDER ma paratant to a