Star.
London, England, 1821-06-21 00:00:00

(peaty, he believed there were not fifty Members in
the House who wished that it should pass.

Mr. MANSFIELD concurred in all that had been
so ably stated by the Honourable Member who spoke
list. lie corroborated the statements of that Ho-
nourable Member respecting the poor at Leicester,
and contended' that it was a complete contradiction
to those supporters of the measure before the House,
who asserted that the spirit of the people was gone.
Perhaps they should hereafter have the satisfaction
and happiness to find, that in other places as well as
in Leicester, these exertions to have been made by
the poor, instead of their being in that state of de-
'moralization with which they were charged. He be-
lieved, from the experience of a Magistrate during
the perieds of the greatest distress, that the people,
were as unwilling to receive relief as the rich were to
afford it. MI they wanted was work, and a fair
price for their labour.
Mr. LOCK fl ART supported the Bill. The present
system of Poor Laws was absolutely calculated to
sap the energies of the People, and loudly called for
some remedy. The remedies proposed by his Hon.
Friend wem of such magnitude that they could not
possibly be discussed in this &ssion ; it would be im-
rossible for the Overseers of any parish to ascertain
what the maximum should be. In France, where
there were no Poor Rates, the number of paupers
compared to the number in England, was as ten to
500; and the reason was, that in France almost every
poor man was allowed to hold a small scrap of land,
which was sufficient to maintain himself and family :
and he would nut allow the benefit of a maximum.
to any agricultural parish, until that parish proved
that it had adopted the means of enabling poor men
to hold small lots of land, to make the most of the
same, so as to be able to maintain their families—
(Hear).—An experiment of this kind had been lately
tried in some parishes of Wiltshire, and was at-
tended with the happiest effect in diminishing the
Poor Rates. He was not an advocate, for an Agra-
lian Law, :tad still less for the Spencean system ;
but be thought that eatended means should be af-
forded to poor men to derive some benefit from the
cultivation of land—(ficar).
Mr BERNAL said, the proposition for a maximum
was unnecessary and absurd, because there was a clause

in the Bill which went to do it away altogether. Ano-
ther obstirdity in the Bill, was that of limiting relief
to chltheo hereafter to be bornin wedlock, while re-

lief was to be allowed to illegitimate children ; and'
this was a direct encouragement held out to vice.--
Then, relief was to be denied to artificers out of em-
ploy, at the very time when there were laws inflict-
ing heavy penalties on them if they attempted to quit
the kingdom! Suppose any branch of our manufac-
tures was to fall into decay, what would become of
the workmen? Were they to be denied all support,
and suffered to go about the country as vagrants?—
Many of our manufactures had already fallen off, and
the consequence was, that great numbers of persons
were unable to procure employment. If this Bill were
to pas., another great evil would result from it—it
would be, that there would be no end of litigation.
Mr. FIIANKLAND LEWIS agreed in the main
principle of this measure; but there were many pro-
visions in the Bill to which he could never give his
assent. -lie believed that the evils resulting from the
Poor Laos at present were so great, that if they were
not checked in their operation, the downfall of. Eng-
land would be inevitable. The progression of the
Poor-rates was regular and increasing; it did not
depend on temporary circumstances, nor on taxation
(Hen r, hen r).—Does the llonourable General (alluding
to Sir Robert Wilson) mean to contradict this asser-
tion?—ESir ROBEItT MIAOW Yes.''j—lle con-
tended it did not depend on taxation; because Scot-
land paid taxes equally with England, and there were
no Poor rates there. France was taxed as much as
England, in proportion to her means--(A cry of No,
ao!)—and there were no Poor-rates there. Here the
_

Honourable Gentleman entered into calculations to
prove his statement; and lie repeated his assertion,
that the destructi'rn of England was certain, if this
alarming system was not correctedi The condition
tf the Poor Laws was to reward men for putting
themselves into a state of misery. The necessity for
the existence of the Poor Laws had not been made
out; and it should he considered, that in Scotland
there api eared to he no necessity for them.—
It "as a.remaikable fact, chit in Spitalfields, where
there were more poor than in any other part of the
kingdom, they were obliged to have recourse to a
Llazineunt ; and this was a reason v, by the present
MI was not likely to pi oduce the effect proposed by
it. He thought the House should have proceeded on
the Report already made on this subject by its Com-
mittee, rather than entertain a measure of this kind.
lie felt satisfied that if persons were enabled to ob-
tain relief out of the parishes in which they were
barn, the number of paupers would inevitably be in-
creased. Nothing could be worse than the system of
i'lting the paupers from one parish to another.
Wherever the woi d relief was used in connection with
t Poor Laws, it was to le understood as implying
pecuniary mile( only, and that ought to be given to
tone but the impotent, who were rendered incapable
of supporting themselves. The Righ: Hon. Gentle-
man then referred to the Statute of the 43d of Eliza-
beth, and cited the opinion of the Lord Chief Justice
Rale, to slew that it gave Magistrates no power to
order anything but relief to the impotent. The ten-
dency of the Poor' Laws, he said, was to tear down
all the institutions of the country, and to involve all
classes in one common ruin.
As soon as the Honourable Gentleman had con-
cluded, several Members rose to address the Chair ;
but Sir Rom= WitsoN having first caught the
SPEAKERS eye, he gained precedence, and said it
was quite impassible that the question could be fully
and fahly discussed at so late an hour. As there
were many Honourable Members yet remaining who
wished to speak their sentiments upon it, he should
now move, as an Amendment, that the debate be ad-
journed till to-morrow.
Mr. SC ARLETT expressed his concurrence in the
Amendment, which was agreed to after a few words
from Mr. T. CoURTENAy and Mr. F. PALMER.

ISCEL LANEOtIL

The Com Averages Bill went through a Committee of the
vhole House, and the Report was ordered to be received on
Tricky next.
HUME gave notice that he would, on Monday, move
lit an Address to the King, requesting his Majesty to reduce
Ihe altlitary Eqtablishment of the country.
2d.kILTIN, after a few wtm ds, consenttd to postpone