The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-11-22 00:00:00

CHRISTIANITY AS IT IS, AND SOCIALISM

AS IT IS.

A public discussion on " Christianity as it is, and Social-
ism as it is," was commenced on Tuesday evening, in the
Queen's Theatre, Christian-street, between the Rev. Joseph
Baylee, secretary of the Irish Home Mission Society, and
Mr. John Farn, a person designated " a Social Missionary."
The admission to the place was by tickets, the prices of which
were,—boxes 6d, pit 4d, and gallery Id. The house was
nearly full.
At half-past seven o'clock the chair was taken by Mr.
Thomas Weatherill. Mr. Baylee was accompanied on the
platform by the Rev. Fielding Ould, and Mr. Farn was at-
tended by two other Owenites.
The CHAIRMAN, in commencing the proceedings, briefly
mentioned that he had consented to preside on the three
nights' discussion, and he hoped they would pay respect to
the chair. He then detailed the conditions of the discussion,
which were-Ist, The whole expenses to be defrayed by the
" Social Board," they making what arrangements they please
as to admission ; 2d. They may select their own chairman ;
3d, Mr. Baylee to open the discussion, Mr. Farn to close
it—the opening speech each evening not to exceed three
quarters of an hour, and the speeches following not to exceed
fifteen minutes each ; 4th, The discussion to commence at
half-past seven, and to conclude when each speaker shall
have had three opportunities of delivering his sentiments ;
sth, The discussion to continue three evenings, Tuesday,
Wednesday, and Friday, wheresoever the " Social Board"
may appoint ; 6th, Each speaker to have the closing speech
each alternate evening ; 7th, Mr. Baylee to open the discus-
sion with prayer, but should he exceed five minutes, the
excess to be deducted from his forty-five minutes ; and Bth,
No report to be published without the mutual consent of
both parties.
M r. BAYLEE then recited an appropriate hymn, after which
he offered a most affecting prayer to the end that the Almighty
would be pleased to open the hearts of all scoffers and
infidels. The whole theatre stood up whilst the rev. gentle-
man was praying; but the three Socialists on the platform
did not pay the same courtesy to the sentiments of their
antagonist.
The REV. GENTLEMAN, after stating the subject of dis-
cussion, said that, on:this occasion he meant to oppose those
parts of socialism which bore upon man in his relationship
to God. He did not mean to discuss the question whether
the community system was good or bad, but he had come to
bear testimony against socialism in its doctrines respecting
God and man, in his relationship to God. Socialism, which
its founder Robert Owen called " A new system of morals,"
professed to teach us how to become healthy and wealthy in
this world ; but it taught us nothing about the other world.
See page 17 of the book of the New Moral World. It denied
the existence of a personal God—page 35. It professed to
destroy all existing religions and all existing governments,
peaceably if possible, and if not by force—pages 4 and 47.
It destroyed the tenderest relations of society—the relation
between husband and wife, and that between father and child
—page 9. In Robert Owen's address, page 6, and in his
Laws of Universal Society, page 18, the principle was plainly
asserted that man was not responsible to the God who made
him, and that faith was the governing principle of the evil
spirit of this world. He (Mr. Baylee) would undertake to
prove from the books of the Socialists members that their
principles were untrue. Mr. Baylee then referred to the
works already named, and to the Socialists' Bible, by which
he established the facts that Robert Owen was unfitted for
the task he had undertaken, that he was ignorant of the
word of God, and that his statements respecting both God
and man were inconsistent with each other. His expose was
loudly applauded, and at the end of his address he retired
amidst loud cheers.
Mr. FARN then addressed the meeting; but without no-
ticing the principal points in Mr. Baylee's argument, he en-
tered into an elaborate eulogium of the five points and other
essentials of Owenism.
Mr. BAYLEE, in reply, called attention to the fact, that
Mr. Farn carefully avoided answering the case he had ad-
vanced.
Each of the disputants afterwards spoke, and, at the ter-
mination, the meeting unanimously decided in favour of Mr.
Baylee.

SECOND NIGHT'S DISCUSSION.
The discussion was resumed on Wednesday evening, be
fore a very crowded auditory.
Mr. YARN commenced the discussion by an allusion to
Mr. Baylee's assertion that if Owenism could not destroy
existing religions and governments peaceably, it would do
so by force. Mr. Baylee inferred that physical force was
here contemplated. Now the socialists had no such views,
in support of which he referred to the fact that they had not
taken part with the chartists in their late insane efforts to
overturn the established government. The force which was
meant was the force of argument ; but, at the same time, he
contended that there must soon be a physical revolution,
unless the " present anomalous state of society" was re-
formed according to Owen's principles. Mr. Baylee had ob-
jected that Robert Owen taught mysteries, but he seemed to
forget that the Church of England did so likewise ; for in
the Athanasian creed God was pronounced incomprehensible.
The system of a community of property was based upon the
same principle as benefit societies, and, therefore, he did
not see how any valid objection could be urged to it. To
spew that man's character was formed from his peculiar
organisation, acted upon by external circumstances, he re-
cited the cases of Peter the Wild Boy, and Caspar Hauser.
He concluded by an attempt to spew that Dr. Hook, and
some of the authors of the " Tracts for the Times," recom-
mended and enforced the practice of many of the principles
laid down by Robert Owen.
Mr. BAYLEE then came forward, and was greeted with
loud cheers. He commenced by reading the 115th Psalm,
after which he offered a short but appropriate prayer. He
observed that Mr. Farn had not, as yet, attempted to prove
that part of his (Mr. Baylee's) argument which related to
the responsibility of man to God. That circumstance, he
contended, showed either that Mr. Fern thought his system
in this respect indefensible, or that he was incompetent. Mr.
Farn, last night, asserted that the Socialists had no opinion
about God ; but in the book of the New Moral World, and in
the Social Bible, he found that these persons, who, it was
said, had no opinion about God, had printed their opinion
that there was a Creator of all things—that there was a Crea-
tor and governor, with powers of contrivance and wisdom.
Yet Mr. Farn denied this creator and governor to be a per-
sonal being ! Although the creator was also a governor, the
Socialists denied our responsibility to him—but on this part
of the subject, although called upon, Mr. Farn had not said
a word! They denied the right of the creator to worship—
yet, according to their principle, they required responsibility
from the governed, and justice on the part of the governor !
Mr. Baylee then noticed the five fundamental facts of Owen-
ism, and showed that they were defective, inasmuch as they
left out of view the mental nature of man, and that whatever
was new in them was not true, and that what was true was
not new.
Mr. YARN rose to reply, and complained of Mr. Baylee
having attacked him for not noticing the religious part of his
argument, but Mr. Baylee should have recollected that he
originally stated that he should not enter upon that topic.
Mr. Farn then proceeded to reiterate the sophistries of the
Owenite system all of which he delivered with considerable
volubility, but his reasoning and illustrations were so incon-
clusive as occasionally to excite the risibility of the meeting.
Mr. BAYLEE, in answer, narrated the terms of the discus-
sion, contending that the religious part of his argument was
strictly within them, inasmuch as the subject was " Chris-
tianity as it is, and Socialism as it is." The way in which
Mr. Fern dealt with this point reminded him of the officer
who, previously to departing for the West Indies, was applied
to for the payment of a debt, " Oh," was the reply, " it is
not my interest to pay the principal, nor my principle to pay
the interest"—(loud laughter).
Mr. YARN having again addressed the meeting, Mr. Bay-
' LEE closed the discussion, with a hope that what he had said
might be the means of bringing many there out of the dan-

gerous delusions of Owenism. -
The auditory then. dispersed, first having given three
cheers for Mr. Baylee, and three for the church to which he
belonged.
The last part of the discussion will take place this evening
(Friday).

THE BARQUE " RICHARD JONES."-A beautiful new
vessel of this name, the property of Mr. Jones, optician,
Strand-street, and commanded by Captain M'Fee, is now
lying along the Floating Chapel in George's Dock, and has
excited much attention and admiration from the beauty of
her model, the excellent manner in which she is finished, and
the taste displayed in her rigging and equipments. She is
114 feet in length from the taffrail to the fore part of the
stern ; her beam is 26 feet 4 inches, and she admeasures 369
tons. Her hull, which is of the best materials, presents a
fine specimen of naval architecture, being throughout finished
and moulded with a nicety equal to a piece of cabinet work,—
the seams in her upper works being scarcely perceptible, and
the style of the whole being of a superior character. She is
a sharp vessel, but has withal ample bearings. Two narrow
streaks of gilding run from bow to stern on the side, and
give her a rich appearance, without being gaudy. Her figure-
head, a full length representation of the owner, is admirably
carved, as is the name of the ship carved and gilded on raised
pannels on the head rails. Her stern is one of the prettiest
we have ever seen, and this is saying much in Liverpool, which
has been celebrated for particular taste in this department of the
art. The top is ornamented by a scroll of fioriated carved work
in relief and bronzed, with a coat of arms in the centre. Below
are seven cabin windows, with gilded carved work between,
and beneath those the vessel's name cut out in the solid, and
gilt. She has a slightly raised quarter-deck, and a top-gallant
forecastle. Her lower and top-gallant bulwarks are empan-
nelled throughout and beautifully painted. Her rigging is
peculiarly neat and square withal ; she has proved herself an
admirable sea boat and a fast sailer, 'and, when her ports are
open, looks in the water like a sloop of war. Her two bin-
nacles, supplied by the owner, are highly ornamental, and of
improved construction. She has two cabins with sleeping-
rooms, &c., adjoining. The after cabin is empannelled,—
the styles f African rosewood, and the pannels of ma-
hogany. The mouldings and other ornaments are of
ebony and those of the cornice are gilt. The sideboard is in
a recess lopped by an elliptic ornamented arch, and the furni-
ture is rich and appropriate. The dining cabin, further for-
ward, is larger and tastefully painted in mahogany and satin
wood. The Richard Jones is intended for the Eastern trade,
and is about to proceed on her first voyage to Sydney, New
South Wales. She was built at Chepstovr On the Wye, un-
der the inspection of her commander, and is highly creditable
to the gentleman whose name she bears, who has spared no
expense to render her in every respect beautiful and com-
plete.

INTERESTING TO QUADRILLE PLAYERS.—We have much
pleasure in directing the attention of families and the direc-
tors of public assemblies to the advertisement of Mr. Peter
Stubbs, in another column. Local talent we are always ready
to applaud, and we must say, that the performers in Mr.
Stubbs's band have abilities and acquirements of a very su-
perior order. Their shrewd and clever leader has added to
his corps, at the suggestion of h s friends, an accomplished
harpist from London and Cheltenam, also a cornet-a-piston
player, and the band, thus constructed, cannot be surpassed
by any in the country. There will now, at least, be no ne-
cessity for the people of Liverpool to send to Manchester or
London for performers, when an excellent band may be re-
quired, and we do hope that Mr. Stubbs's talent and enter-
prise will, in future, be rewarded by the patronage of public
and private assemblies.
LECTURES ON THE PAPAL POLICY IN FRANCE, IN
1661-1689.—1 t is now above a month since Mr. Scott deli-
vered his introductory lecture on this interesting and instruc-
tive part of history, and after an unavoidable delay of some
weeks, he now proposes to deliver a course on the subject.
Availing himself the labours of Louis the XVl's ministers,
who made a minute research into the Anti-Protestant legis-
lation of former reigns ; and of materials collected by himself
in France, Mr. Scott can hardly fail to throw much light on
the astounding policy, by which two millions of faithful
Protestant subjects were, in the short space of less than a quar-
ter of a century, reduced from a condition in which they were
not only tolerated, but sanctioned and established by law,
to the wretched extremity of not being suffered either to live
in their native country as Protestants, or expatriatethemseives
unless at the risk of being intercepted on the road, and being
shut up with their wives and children in wretched prisons,
there to perish or be sent to the galleys as slaves. De Rul-
hiere, w publised the result of the ministerial investigations
above al i .ided to, deliberately affirms that the annals of per-
secution present no such example of oppression as that with
which the Protestants of France, until past the middle of the
last century, were visited in his own country, and that during
a period when the era of feudal barbarism and fanaticism was
supposed to have long since passed away. What ought to
give peculiar interest to Mr. Scott's lectures, is, the very
slight attention paid by modern historians to the great revo-
lution which for a time suppressed the reformation in France.
Of this there can be no better instance than that of the au-
thor of the recently published Life and Times of Louis XIV.
Mr. James dismisses the whole subject in a few pages !