Star.
London, England, 1829-05-19 00:00:00

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. . TUESDAY. EVENTG, MAY 0, 'NW ''' '.l'.
• . 'J• • ; Palos' Saviontbssoa.
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• . IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
• -HONSIC OF LORDS, MAT IL •
• The Bari , BLOOM pretested a Pendia from:certala-11th
reddest highs vicinity of London veteran SW ME
Laid on the table.
The Silk Bin passed through a Cosradttee. and the Repel, with-
out amendment, was received. •
Several private Bills were tonvarded through Asir respective
stages: -
Mr. ADAM Appeared in Thera-tyke's divorce nee. The bears
leg 43( weaves *ft posepenek end have .iietiLie the parties to
present mak radio that mil deep prop!?.
'The Hasse resolved' knell Into a Committee en tap 84 fir faci-
litating coke end ether prteeediage in eqiity..—TlO Ball was or-
dered is be prlntadousd reoenunttted to.anorroir. . •
The Loap cHANciiLLOg *beers* that..he "
bad 'eta'
unendinenti to propose. which be would then &mkt* the Hesse.
The House adjourned at In o'CLike.
•
• . HOUSE-OF COMMONS. •
The Gilirry was' this daiipeforlit as unusually eerie bear.asd
completely hied bog before three *Week.; by which Arne a'
game ouraber of pearl ik the body of the Hotta were securee,
by Hon. &Seabees *a we recollect to bays seen cm ocean°. sf
•;iire moat impartantlEsketts.
The SPICA the Chair at about In • minutes to four
o.44ack obfah he* thief Were not pretest es teary Members
* a the lends at ea ileresentt frainy j but by tip *Woolf
Ito* $O4 fie slie-asseseicebsen of the 4ebete to she isomers et
QVanoeil% herds heart 1/1 Wigan ef his stem ores lei Pa-
' Itametsbnibere were between throe ind.loor. bundle Members
sit the. Mete.. 'rho epee 6•114 the bar sod Kier of the heircires
In the lidi ellierfes were 61Ied by itringere, admitted by the
Speakir's express order: • •. , .• • • .
' • • Mr. O'Cossetu. mirk Ma stationirelow. Hsi bar at about a gainer
mellow O'clock. ,
,• esdeentlist prevaied Wit eltleits mi the same abject.—
Thy avenues to the House watetbassed.
Mr. HOBHOUSK brought up id report os the St. James's'
Vestry Act, which wee received, spied %%and the Bill ordered to
he read a third slow on Wednesday sea.
'Mr. E. B. CLIMB presented a. Fithian from the, eordwahren
Kilo city of Hereford against the lospbrades of fascia shoes.—
Oniered to be laid upon.the table. • . •
Mr.,DOW NIB a Petition frees the Provost, Bet-
ties; aid Torre of biverkeitir, maim the Sesta Gaols
. Width was Ordered tote reared to the Committee en the Bill.
-The*. Demon's, March Bill was read a third time,, and passed.
? Ltd F.I.GOWER/arm& in a Bill teemed the Aces for the,
-Renato, Insolvent .Debtera ill 'retard, which was read a Ant time*
and ordered to be read a second tis* to-morrow (this day).
• The ilapbrt of the Committee on the Chards Laws Society Act.,
wit received and agreed -to, and the 8111 ordered te be read a third
time' tomorrist (this day). _
.• The Report atilt, Committee oq the Nights of Raecutors (int-
uod) Act was also received. and agreed to, and the third reading
Of tie MU Axed fee tomorrow (this day).
On' the 'moth& Of the SOLICiTOLORNERAL :be Coto-
oases entire 'LIM Terms Regulation INS was peopled is Wed-
loudly neat. -
?be Badasiastittil Reports Bill 'passed through a Committee.
The Ripen was ordaidnibe received to-Morrow phis day)4
. Orr the Meuse et the LORD ADVOCATE of 'SCOTLAWD
the MorderearAttmorta (Scotland) MI was rind a third time and
PasOaal•
-tin. PORTMAN brought up tbei Report sheof Committee oa
the Ftieodly Societies' Alt, which was agreed is, and the Biller.
timed to be rod a died time tomorrow (this dee).
, The Me Clete Oder 111 war read a third time and passed.-
; bk. HUMS premised Pelkieme hem the freeholders and others
residing ill a eery* Shisistio.deceeesti of Glamour, and from
the lahabitesti of ICMdimsbieter, paying for a rsvblss et the
Corn Laws.

•
tilt Wee his argementsin support of bircloiskided that
foes reuse which I am about to mention. This ques-
tion ir not only an especial and excepted case. it turns
not only on ate admiasios to privileges, baton the in-
lictioo of penalties; for it the Honourable Member
shall take his sear on taking the woos oath. he shall im
subject to penalue. re:overable. in a Court of Law.
This special circumstance will prevent the case from
being drawn into a ptecedeat. kis finis; thee that ,
we should give to a person so cirounsetanced eery.
postible advantage that cannot be thew, into a poem-.
dent for &tore usage. Now, Sir. Ste the question--
whether the Howourable Member be beard at:the table.
ear a; the 640 I cannot think it fitting (Oahe should
,holhiard at the table. I can see nothing in We prece-
ideals voted tending to prove that he should be al-
,lowed ;streak argumentailely at the table.. <1 shall
him so into as argumentation. 000lltheommedents
tht.Hoise desires it. AU the vases owed on
efirt•plihttt am limited to three:—that of Lord Feenhasee,
that it Monson. and that Member for Newton,
Mr. Ch , who tat in the Camventiow Parliament.
Betides there were the cases of the tuaker (Mr.
Archdale). and of Miss. Wilkes, who was brought up to
the bit in outoodh. Now, ilse'c saes of-Lard .14n,Iseww.
SiSH.'Mosson. and Mr. Cbnlmeley, were. puha,:
reser. These three Members had sat in the Crosventis,ol
Parliament without taking the oaths prescribed to be
taken in the Lend Steward's odice or at the table.—
Indeed. it was impossible they could take the then
etioing oath of allegiance, as it imposed an obligation
6f adhesioa to King James; yet these three Member;
set and acted its that Column ion Parliament in the year
1689, when it 'kris proposed to abro,:ate the old. mob,
and to substitute the oaths of supremacy and allegiance.
1, great number of Menthe's. I believe about four bun
deed. took those oaths in that Parliament. These dove
Members were celled to she table. and required to take
the oaths under the Act of William and Mary. They
refused. Now, the Honourable Member for Clare hes
done just the same thing. Toe Speaker tendered to
she Honourable Member the oath.ot .stipreasacy. The
Hon. Member having declined to take the oath, was
orderedto withdraw. Such was the case of the three
Members to whom I hue alluded. They.declined to
take the oaths tendered at the table, and were ordered
to withdraw. Note.Sir,l.think it wai just that they wet&
pretreated from speaking at the. table, inasmuch as, not
having taken the oaths, they had seta right to be pre-
sent at the debates of the House. The case of Mr. Arch-
dale was of a different kind, fOr that Member wrote to
bhe'Suaket, statiag that be would not take the oaths,
ut was ready to make a declaration. He was. howevor,
called to the table, end, persisting in his refusal to
teki the oaths, ems ordered to withdraw. Nor did the
teems in which lie explessed bit refusal, nor the manner
of it. vary materially ; not, certainly, in suboance,fiom
those used by the other three Members; and he with:
drew just as they had done, As to the case of. Mr.
Wilkes; which-hat been 'adduced as most fainettable to.'
Mr. O'Connell, I 'c, meeive it proves th It the How. Mono
her should he beard at the bar, and not.at thorable;;
.tor Mr. Wilke., basing been brought up in. custody,
asked the S eater, before aner,cirertu to k oe,,
in the...V.4 4 a
.10 elitninkry quettiOn, •J, as-he
had nut taken the oaths of tralificatitto..bt would not
beoxpotal so penalties if he took his seat iimildted
the House? He was immediately ordeied to, with& aw
A discussion ensued. sod it Wei ultimately decided
that, as Vatted not spoken in the House. lrg had a tight
.speak at. the bar without Whim, to any penalties.
But. -putting these precedents aside. it may be tidily
sakre,_on the dictate. of COllllOOO send: (Rimming that
thelintth of supremacy ought to be take'', an opinion
sehichlas.beeta expressed by the Speaker), that it would
be improper to. allow -thelHon. Member to be pre*eot
at bdr.Obiteh'he not having taken that oath ; and, as
the.iateciioo of the law: would subject the Ho losouble
-limber to penalties. it would not be fioing to allow
any possibility of an infraction. Betide., it is the
'usage that persons speaking on points of privilege
'should" be beard at the bar. al the whole. then, 1
'obelisk that it is better we should bear the Hooour-.
able Member at the bar, particularly as, by adopting
this course, be is not exposed to, any penalties, and also,
because it would tend more to our oven satisfaction.--.
Fur (hew reasons; and because the point tutus on, the
c•mstruction r f ao Act of Parliament. l think' it fitting
the Will. Member dioold, by himtelf, his Counsels or
agents, be -beard; but I hold it olso proper that he•
should be heard at the bar. I am aware that it appears.
to some (I do not say to any person in this House) .that
it is an immatett .1. a uilling diffetence, sibetltrr the
Hon. Member be heard at the bar or the table;'.
jro, I hold it most important that we should toictlP
observe the forms and privileges of the House, and this
Done but supei fici 4i minds would undervalue the utility
of them, My Right Hoo. Foetid is of opinion that
Mr. O'Connell ought not to be admitted as a Member
'without taking the oaths; 'but adds, that Isefore.hetakei.
the oaths, he should he allowed to state his objections
to them, and that-buds a course was comistattmith the
esage of the House; and Atchdale's case is quoted es.
atipportios that opinion. But it wasspretuusable in the
tatter Case, before Mr. Archdale entered. the House,
thalliC would not take the, oaths. The general pia-
timpiion should be that every_ Member had taken the
prescribed oaths. But it was mistake to say that these
oaths-were reqUired to be taken for the satisfaction of
the House; they were imposed for the satisfaction of
the Crown, with a view to give a proof of their allot
glance to the Crown, as the House required its Meese
bets to take certain oaths for the satisfaction of the
House. As td the rule requiring the production of the
ceitificate of having taken the oaths, Vaos, inclined 10
think it has not been steadily adhered to. ..think shim
I myself have qoalified, and not produced the. certilla
cate of qualification. Thinking. then, Sir, that you haeit
pronounced a correct opinion on the mega of ad.
House. I shall move--
u Tut then Member foe Clare be beard at the Bar by hiensslg
his Counsel, it Agents, in respect of his Cahn to Sit and Vote
without taking the Oath of Supremacy."
The SPEA KKR laving pot tie maim as an amendment,
Mi. C. W. WYNN said, as his Right Hon. Friend
had alluded to him. he was affious to say as(ew words.
He certainly was in favour of hearing the Hoe. Mem.
her for Clue at the bar of the House. though, genes
rally,,he did not thitik it any thing where the
Hon Member was hehrd,Vibether at the hat or at the
table. No inconvenience or danger could arise from
hearing him at the table, for, by allowing him to 'peek
then. he wet' no more'admitted to the functions of a
*Puha of Psilianient that the'Peer who. nettling -a
ILeatbet of tail Upper House, was allowed to MOM the

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,sbuePP:and
hilitispmfivetikies• toast:ago:ll to give gthiveeaohoi:.e.iHaeopc.:,o4.,
no objectimaligibri motioq. • .
Mr. BROUGHAM said that his Learned Friend bad
anticipated ilia (Mr. B.'s) observations. He should,
therefore. decline repeating them. He differed from
'the Right 800. Gentleman as to the result of the pt.,
eedents, for be was convinced they bore oat his (Mr. B.'s)
viola► that the Hon. Member for Clare had a right to
be heard at the table. But, as there were conflicting
immodest:. he agreed.thatlt made no difference where
the Hon. Member should be beard. As lie had no par-
ticular predilection foe the ;able. and no wish to indulge
in profitless discuroion, be would not waste the time of
the House so precedents.. There were precedgms, both
' way., one is favour,of bearing the Hon. Member at the
bar. and several in favour:et heating hie' 111,11141 tali& ;
hut he wished it to be anderstood.. that bossing also Bea.
Member for Clare at,ilse bar lipoid do no injecygot bit
sights as an.unsworn Member. Owe Isdrattag* Wikuld
e...:t from bearing him at the table, namely. Abet it
,woold, prevent fauns litigatiois in another place, for.
though be (Mr. B) did out think theie would be any
talractioe of Übe law its, heatitot Me, Hon. Member 4
the table, othereinteit thinrother wise, and make .1.4
of die circammascoso estate Hon. Member trouble
in *Mather place. it might a.,, is the case of a new
election, maw' hisiselog Tettnised. again, lead the Hon.
Member and his constituents into a disputation with
others, before a Cognosittee of that 'House. on the point
whether he may not, by having been heard- as the table.
forfeit the privileges of being reollicted. ' Pal tbsi-e
reasons he should preler the course of hem high.* Wes. ‘
Member at the bar. • . ....,r I. Ar,,...
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Mr. Poses aeueduseet was thou put and carrloM•4 ,1, s!i• •
The SPEAKER then put the sada secede°, dip, ARAM**
be behrd at the table; on which • • ,v . • • As"
hlr..BßOUGHA3l.euggescid that she, ceiiisiielfho
diseaseloa iof the reed= thee, sad proceed until Mei dmolirldm
llnishve. .* ,
Mr. PIM concurred. . •
Ta. SPEAKER then aebad,'irhether it was *spirant. of the
Ream that Ur. IrCanuellobe called la?
Who garottes% was answered by general elwariag.
. , Mr. 1/Ceassi.s. thee appeared at the bar.
the SPEAERR—Sin it has bear malted by the Reese that
you ly head er the bar to respect to your 'dales to sit and vete
withupt taking the oath of supremacy. •
Mr. Otosost.t. then proceeded tnaudress the House.
He said be spoke under the, disadvatitige of very great
ignorance of the forms of the Hoti:t!.fte was therefoie
entitled to the indulgence of the licia*.illesiood there
to claim ;he right to sit and vote fil %it 'House es the
repiesentative of the electors of Clati.'ks.ittiont taking
the oath of supremacy. He watready•ro take the oath
of allegiance provided by the went:statute for the relief
pt Ilia-Majesty's Roman Catholic 'subjects. It was' his
wish that it should be admiaisteted to him. He was
prepared to verify his powers relative to qualifications
oa the point of property,if the House should decide that
be be admitted tir' take the sew oaths. He should then
gloom to sit and-mote sr his.own peril. 'His right to sit
and write was. pm featly pluin--hirlud been returued• to
that-Hooks by the proper officers-ghat, return was air
psoied by the Howe: ,liehaditeita eleetedhy a rest
asajoritycit the electimrof Clage.• The returthad toes
sawn tu. Comenitaimiefebat•Hosek. and tatianimoutig •
confirried. :He therefore but as goad I right •t•. In alld
vote as any Honourable or Right Houiligable.Mv4how ,
then sitting there. The voice of the people had said that
be was their representative. They .- hail a leg.l . and
eon titutional right to r, gumlike,. mid he by *al retina
bud a legal and coostitu:lowel sight to sit and-vomits
the Commons House of Pailtagneitt. T equestion was,
whether that right email be cuistragi:lod by the obliga-
tion of taking certain oathst That qutstien wk. not
.one of common law i "t wes,. whether a - tepresentative
of the people had a•rigke to-sito rind woe in Parliament
independent of certain indis, aildicould only be subj-ct
to the statute law.?, filvioishadso call the attention of
the floutie to those parsilvlar statutes which bore.upon
his Vitt. Up to the reign of+Queen Elis-ahe h there
were. no such oaths to be taken.- Up to the tio a of
Charles the,Second there were no oaths to be taken in
the Noose, and the. SOth of Charles wa. the first Act
which ordained them. 'rise .first '.Oath •reloired to be
taken by Mat article wing the oath of allegiance, and no
mesa is the Haase( was muse ready to take that oath
that he wee. The nest was!.thsoath•of suptemacy I and
therewere,he was sum% many in 41441004 who would
not, take the .then Ametvoi. supreetacy.i: 311 be slime lot
oaly-ordained"tliat otiose agsachsl, Amnesia* taken,: Ira
st: wielded ',audit* .armin Penalties allitibt ...i &tie • u riti •
should,,refube to tabs them. • These fenalelei were *el- .
bt lively. styt se Alleasigibtatibott allitrEeillifiaAmongat•
thegst.was a pecaniark penaltyof 5004: wiltelt-he pruh;-
cuh.jfymcnt.onad, as n was hell 4high•ii;4l.th-U. C. the.
attention 4 the House to.oneorguineet WO& he Meant
io forni upon that peuelsy. The purport of this anions'
ersa obvious; kwas topieserve the King's person' dad
Gores natant.; anti, -the means which were resorted 10
for rhea purpose' wife pomesiting Papists from titling
iffidArnentrin either.• Howe of Parliatrieni. He trek
retie of thOsit wbeldthM4iegielmete pointed out 4i jhat
courier:lee dissiologoation.' as was 4a Papist iblii;•, .
.such, came udder- the duelling bf the'suitutPe.:°. ,I
intaglio& was, he repeated, obvious. Ttie statute .
to.be construed, of Cuarse,,,witßeefelence to its Object
it was plain that, as long as that stature remained is
;faze, it would have been vain tor the people to have
elected him for any county. The iodate did raisin
14 force up to the period of the Legidative Union si)th
'lreland ; or. he•should rather say, the declaratimi le•
matted in force, for the -oath of Stipremiey ''wes rstia
pealed by as Act of William and Mary, and k neer
oath of Supremacy substituted for it. He humbly sub-
mitted, however, Abet- the Legislative Union did,''.
fact, repeal the Act of Charles 11. tor, though it 1,-
ratted that.the 'oaths should be taken, it did dot i '
•pose my pains-or penalties for not talkie* them.ihose
pains-sad penalties•vtego imposed by the Atter. t'harlei
IL but that Act was not in operation in 'Ail. frArlia:
meat.: It was the Act of an English Parlianiedt; and,
even had it been passed in the •British Patliamenr, after.
the Union'with.Scoiland, it could have no force igthis.
Parliament. He tested his Case, then. on grounds tikh
he would not feast, make good before e &hi, which .
no Lawyer could coatsosert, and no jeatricolold oviri
rule. In thefitaplace, by ettturof the Act of Union,le
contended that he had aright to sit -aill bete' in. Paths:.
meat without taking*. oaths ordaideol-bi the .30th of
Chas. H. In thrust place, by *Wyk bfrheßelief 8i11,.'.
it was. admituid that he was noel, called • upon ''to ia. kk.
the declaration. By vitae of the stroge'Rellef BM, is
is Catholic he was etaided to sit anti iiife'Sbithan sikint
*tomb of supremacy ; and, loath'''. -lii eas Otitic
to sit .and woorwithoot taken any- otllp betbribau those'
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