Star.
London, England, 1829-04-03 00:00:00

...
consistently with his oalaa-ind,olietter the
*fold *A lose mere than if gain.. by eech an •
mem r But these watlittiehecigetirsty which
Wiraletbids vet moth desiredittrik
car;
carp
baying' a row get)) the criiada6ce r;
itt
by the Roman atholics °rein counts), with the
Rome, and in supervising that correspOnd.ase,
purpose of preventing the mischiefs which may ecclue
to this country from such eirfeepc>ticlitici..lll.w, upon
this point also. I Ct.' a great Ohjection toinielsing this.
Government isi such aff ;its. That ceirresprindence 'is
entirely covenant about spiritual affairs, and any i,..
terfe: enee by the mathoisties of this country ss nold be
'serf diffieu:t and inconvenient. Suppo hog the subject
of any particular part of the ro•re.potidene to be the
eaconsniunication of an intlividoal, it wield he impos-
sible If theGoverument to interfere in it without ads
'spitting that the Noe. with the Scoriae, of S ate, had
'the power of making ce• tai regulations in this country.
I am sure that this sort of security, like the 'miner.
'instead of increasing, must diminish the safety of
the Established Choich—(Hear, hear). The miaow-
nication wi.h Bum, is already soffic.ently provided for
by the laws which exist fur its regulation. I am aware
that these laws, like many others, are connived at
tot the present. But if they shall be at any throe
abused—it the conduct of those persons who were
thy objects of those laws should ever- be such as to eall
for an active interference °tribe past al Government
in that ease, the releases:a now before the H use would
enable the Giermement to interfere. not only with much
greater effect than they cast do at present, but also in a
manner which must give satisfaction to all parties in
this Hou e and the country. There is, my Lards anus
ther part of the Ball which pins an end to the Jesuits
iii this country. If your L. irdships will look to the Act
..1 1791, your Lordships will probably see th it then, as
well as now, it was possible for one m -n to make a law
through which another man could drive a coach and
six. I hope me Noble and Learned Friend near me
(Lord Redesdahe will cacti., me when I say that, al-,
though the Act of 1791 was drawn with great care.
yet, sit direct cniitroreiition of its principles, large esta-1
blishments of Jesuits had since that time been made
here as well as in Ireland. The p e-ent Bill would not
only peers t the influx of Jfsuits, but also of other re-
gular orders belonging to the Church of Rime, and
would. without d.nng any injury to existing invest.
naei ts. prevent any more simile, institutions howl's-mg
formed in this country. There is ni person in this
House more anxious than I am for the pa-sing of this
pail of the measuie, as I think that. if sonic measure
of the son were not adopted, we should soon see this
country; as well as Ireland, completely inundated with
Jesuits and other regulars, sent here from eves y ciuntry
upon the Continent of Europe from which they have
been expelled. Now. my L ids, I 'Jail that I am
Wily called upon to state what reaso it 1 have. for boa
Hewing that this men are. when *domed, will =am
plish the object which I j.rupose—(Hear. hear, hem).—
I answer, that 1 am induced to hope fur these results,
not only Irmo the crimple of all the rest of Europe, but
ft OM the example of a particular part "(this country at
a former period. It lam not mistakeu tit- despairs he •
tween the Episcopalians•and the Members of the Kitt
of Scotland weoe as loud and violent as those which at
present exist between the Yu-test:ants-and Wanian Ca.
'holies in this ca entry. I kno.e that abroad the dif-
ference of Protestant and Roman Catholic is never heard
of, and lam positive that I have stated what I can
prove when I said that the condition of Scotland, be.
fore the concession of civil privileges to the Episcopa-
lians, was pretty much the same as that of this country
at present. To show this, I shall take the liberty of
reading to the House a Petition which was presented
to the Scotch Parliament of that time, and which was
,sent to me this morning. The Petition was presented
at the time when the Parliament were on the eve of
making the concession of civil privileges to the Episco.
palian., and was, as their Lordships would see, the
model of all those which had lately been presented to
the House. And I cannot help here expressing a hope
that the state of things which we have seen in Scotland
for more than a century, may be an example of the
beneficial consequen‘es a hich will Row in this country
from the adoption of similar measures.—Cliere the
Noble Duke read from the Petition an extract, which
was to the following effect :—" To grant toleiation to
that party (the Episcopalians), in the present circum-
stances of the Church and nation, must unavoidably
shake the foundation of our present happy Constitution,
introduce needless disquietu• e into the bieasts a his
Majesty's most loyal subjects, open a door to uncurbed
vice and Popery, and expose the nation to the danger
of falling back into the calamities from which it had
lately escaped by the DI VMS blessing. The Petitioners,
therefore, earnestly prayed that no toleration might be
otended to heretical epiiiions, which to do would be to
establish iniquity by law, and to bring on those who
should consent thereto such evils as the petitioners
prayed that GOD might area t Irons all the Members of
Pailiament.'3 Now, my Loads, I sincerely hope that
ibis prophecy, which was nit fulfilled in the case of
Scotland, will not be fulfilled. should this measure be
'adopted, with respect to Ireland. But, my Lords, I
base other grounds for hoping that this measure will
effect the purpose for which it is brought forward. I
entertain no doubt that, alter this measure shall have
been effected, the Roman Catholics will no longer exist
as a separate iut-oest in the Stare, as they at present do.
Prase nodoubt that they will cease to excite disunion
in this or the other House of Parliament. Parliament
will then, I hope, be disposed to look at their conduct,
and every thing which respects that country, as they
Would 1 se k up .n the poll. and the affairs of England
and Scotland. I will say, however, that if I ant dis-
ranted in my hopes of tranquillity. alter a trial has
given of the measure, I shall have no scruple in
cemitag down to Parliament and laying before it the
state of the case, and calling fur the necessary powers
td enable the Government to hike the steps suited to the
occasion. I shall do this in the same confidence that
Parliament will support me that I feel in the present
case—Meath My Lords, having now explained the .
grounds which, in my opinion, have caPed fir the mea-
sure—the distracted state of Ireland-i--the inconveniences
unending the continual agitation of the qttestion7-tht
drfficulty.. nay, I will add, the impossibility, of finding
any remedy except the one which has been ptoposed—
the state of public opinion—the pretences, for I will call
them so, which have been bra tight against the removal '
,of she Catholic disabilities, founded upen the. Acts of the
Revolution of 1688• N-and the auviiiousness of tiie pie-
sent tine for remedying the inconvenience wising from
.the question. I will trouble your
.Lordships.no terther,
than to entreat you to consider. the, subject before you ,
with the coolness and repderetionit deserees(Heat).
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY then rose and
said--My Lords, tie into:4ll4lon of this
_measure for
gloating .concessions to. the Roman Catholics has. I re- ,
giet to sal, placed me in opposition to his Majesty's
Government—a. Government conducted on principles ;
ell which generally. I. prpetere. and. by perenna whom .
I highly respect. Bat,. howeirse I stay regret beitig.Til
[Opposition to his Majesty's Government, my duty tol

1 arts sneasits.r. lea to the
Chyrsh was feat so sissent.ltad to
• Cho* so whids 1 Applorsodlijuty
of pnlititsal !tower the 1144aiss
me.o aims stash Ursjer dag
• to the is.tete.t, of the Musa)

otteastue of Concession; a..d I is no
say that in 14e ebeervalons which have been made no.
thing' appeats to Me takes place. nor in the measure
itself has. ally thing beeis 'defekiped ealiiitated in les -
•e 1) my appohensioos. I have Heard it said at ddreteut
times in this Nos....that the principles of the Rouran
Catho'nst have of late -years Undergone a mauled
ehaose ; but weir. my lords. that aigurnent will no
longer-be insisted on when we have recently heard pet-
. sons of the highest rank and authority among threats°.
lies of Ireland declare that, so fir from liming expe-
rienced any alteration..th it principles we e unchanged
and unchangeable, and that they ci*taidered tbemselve•
flow icl to act in .coosi-terrey with the principles 'pun
winch they hold their Church to be founded. I have
Also beard it stated in this H use that the i• fattener of
the Irish p•testhood over their people was much over-
rated;- and that, at all events. whatever t Science they
possess is not of a temporal. but of a spiritual charade,.
!But, my Lords. I appeal to your Lwdslops *nether thel
buse of that spi it tut power invested in their hands has.
made them,. in instance, within the recorlection of
my one. darigetou. engines for the attainment of
temporal powe. ? I have likewise heard it asserted in
Ms H.Ano that, give the Catholics all that they demand.
let us bestow upon them ootscession ea
.the full extent
of their wishes, and we shall itd ample securities in
their gratitude,. There is an observation extant.—
an °bier vation seconded by experience—that it is
not very safe to Seen in the gratitude of great
bodies of men. This observatioo has, My Lords, been
recently verified by the conduct of the Roman Catholics
of Ireland. With respect to the repeal of the penal laws,
that I at once admit was denim fed by all the principles
of justice when an imperious secesaity for continuing
them no longer existed. I therefore speak witlsost le-
grad to these laws, as (do sot look for gratitude from
their abolition. Dot when I see the elective fienchise
—when I consider the purpose for which it was given.
and the use that has Isere made of it—a use that has
been stated to have rendered the present measure ne-
cessary--1 confess, my Lords, that I expect no grati-
. Mete from the Itoman Catholics for further coocesrions.
When again I look to tt.e means that have been pro-
vided by the country for the caseation of the Catholic
.priesthood, and the. liberal supplies called for by Go-
vernment and conceded for supporting that system of
education—and when I see the very men so educated
ilwOrnoting an Association which has existed in defiance
•.f Government. and winch has thrown t..oitempt upon
Government. by setting the laws at defiance; and when
I see them making, themselves tie organs of cosnmuni-
cation between it and their flocks, ;sod lending them-
wives to the exaction of taxes. and converting their
place. of worship into places for holdisg.meerings for
recoups purposes; when" see these things. I think.!.
am justified in rleclarinp.that, under all the circum-
stances, there is no encouragement for the indulgence
of sanguine expectation that the present measure will
either be productive of tranquillity to Ireland, or secu-
rity to the Church. But. my Lords, we have been told.
chat without incurring the danger of a civil war, we
cannot adopt any other measure. On this point I do
not feel myself competent to speak, coming, as the state-
ment does, from such high authority, and destitute as
lam of the same degree of information. But when I
consider the great sacrifices we are called upon to make
to purchase what I cannot help thinking would be only.
a temporary tranquillity. I am fearful to part with
certain good for uncertain advantages. The measure
.Will operate a total change upon the constitution of the
chantey. I conceive the constitution of the country to
bi essentially Protestant, and this measure will entirely
alter its character. Ido not say that it will make it of
a Popish character; but I say that the character of the
constitution, if this measure be adopted. will be no
lemon Protestant. I hope your Lordships will indulge
Mme for a few minutes longer while I endeavour to show
.the grounds on which I have formed this opinion. It
cannot be unknowo to your Lordships. who are well
read in the history of the country, that di-pules be-
term n the S3vereigne of this c..untry and the Pope,
respecting the possession of ecclesiastical power,
hive been of long continuance. Those disputes te-
rn early after the c..r.qiiest—l think. in the reign
of Henry the Second, and were carried on with 'anion.
access, awn ding to the vigour of the reigning Prince,
nt the ambition of the ezi.ting Pope, sometimes the
balance being in favour of the King. and sometimes in
favour of the P pe. The contest was continued until
the reign of Henry VIII. a monarch with whose c.a.
meter I nothing.to do; and whether it was owing
to the vigour of his mind, or to the violence of his pas-
sions, I do not pretend to say, but he succeeded in taking
the yoke off the neck of the country. which yoke bat
never since been replaced upon it. Oo the death of
Henry VII. to the freedom of England from the spiri-
tual tyranny of Borne was added the istrodaction of
the reformed religion, and when the people of the
conoti y b. came acquainted with the pure Protestant
religion, their attachment to it continued, and they
opposed a successful resistance to all the attempts of
Rome to regain he lost dominion. There is no oc-
casion to trouble your Lordships with a hasty recital
4 the troubles which arose out of the reign of the two
&am tr, one 4 whom was a conce.led and the other an
avowed Papist. I shall only observe, that notwith-
Attending the influence of the King, the people rose in
defence of their religion; and those Acts were then made
which, though it may be said were passed in moments
of Irritation, which however has nothing to do with the
matter, nor the allegations as to the plot of Titus
aces, originated subsequent enactments more strongly
ected to the attainment of the same object-46m m.
city of the Protestant Church. It was• the first, act et
those who planned the Revolution of 1688, to establish
the Acts passed in the days of Charles 11. for the sector
r
glty of the Protestant religion in all its branches. They
found ;nat, with the exception of the restrictions that
regarded the Monarch, it was not properly established.
The declarations of James the Second, pretended t.) be
Iramrd in . favour of tbe Dissenter', were well known
to be in favour of the Papists, and were of a character
invalid and illegal., What did they do coder these
'circumitances a They made a law that no person pro-
fessing the Roman Catholic religion could be King of,
!his country. and provided that the Sovereign of Ent
land could not have a Boman Catholic for his Queen,
Forther.they altered the oaths to be taken on coining t
the clown, substituted (or them the fortis that exists a
bypr the present, in which the King sweats that be will reg.,:
laws of the comet, y7—that be will evcotejustic.
and mercy according to those laws; and, thirdly (what
, was-of equal importaace.with the provisions that pot
.ended it,tlre opinion ot those who hauled theuith), tb.
/re slnuld.majutain the *ore pr. fession of the (i..,1„
and.44the Pfuilrgalaj, trligools nsestab.iJied by tie a...
41ifati. bc.k.)*ll.4ctio ,!'M e Eii!•eJ fro the a cosn
of the Church, and the Church for the ',critic, of ie.

g ion. a hichoriben it cea,es to pr• test thatOh inch. neitiNes.
Goo am stances be expected to preserve. Iw• old taa
your Lordships attention to that p rt of the K •.a•so..-4,
allich hinds him to supi ott the pure p ofe,si n or the
G spel and the Protestant teligi.m. How, let me ii:t.
is the Sovereign expected to sup, 0.1 it ? 1- it by pea,
%oat Aglaia No; Et_stusit lb tiiiitiat -thvitailp
the ass sir ince cif. his Sfinlir. f his teaponsibla ad,
visas. It is in that way. 'air, that II eS. oft"
**
is Under-stood to be sallied tai peiform b the *k gati"."
.4 his owls. &stony Lords, I toil put a cm e, a, es_
items ca.e, for divagation. S.r.piroae the Y... 0
ii.g ii 9 be
.„,,,,,maid bk Itussidii catholic ids iiers only— ok,,
.oppo.e Phi. case, Ma Li rds. for the frrisit ,i
Obis's:aim) —in inch circumstances he • Arnold bg
perfectly incapable of fulfilling the obligation. ni idi
.e h, because he would have no persout about i
far caviling the ditties involved in theseobligations im
feet.- As tar ai it goes, any adviser cf awl:roam. an,
Ministei who cannot enter into the viewsokhe aa.h tor
opintaiiing the pate rofesaion of the Golan and 1%.
Pi (instant r. lidkas aft established by law—l say mon*
Slinisiet can iiiist the King in ;bat pint if his duty, iii
can advise him in any matter that relates to it. How,*
me i. quite. dies the M ones ch govern deferent 01414
1. .he Etnpiri ? Not by himself per:amity. but -thought*
medium of his officers. In war his officers in she army
and navy are his representatives tor aepporting sad
Prot. slant religion in rose important drpartmerrt.—...
The Kong. ta ME Protestant Sovereign of tb s counny4
represented to foreign nations by his Seaver!,. for
F 'feign Affairs; and bow could he appear as a Piet*.
tent Sovereign to other nation. if the Foreign Secs
—the officer whb represented bitit—eras a Roinancii.
tholic? In the same manner, as regards the Secretary
for the Coronies, the Sovereign. in his Coltinial posses.
.ions, is represented by that Secretary and the &lariat
Governor!, and it ii only through the exerchre of the
'Writ authority by them that he is knoWn in-the Colo.
nies ; and !assert, that, if the person sin holds Ibis
authority in a Colony beast a Protestant, the parry/
the Empire over mid& he presides is deprived of *hi
pre4enet of his Majesty, so far as consists with his'
obligation to maintain the pure profession of dieGeipia.
and the Protestant religion as by law establiffied. Tha
'ame argument' applies to the Secretary of State for the
Home Dipaiament. In It-aril:Ott concerni of this Depute.
merit the King is represented by his Secretary. Aug
now, my Lords, allow me io go a f tile more into detail
a itb respect to these several offices. With ie,:aid is tle
army and navy I shall content ins self by observing, aii
the. e is large ecclisiastical patronage attached to No
digoitiecfor maintaining religion among the are--so
object of the utmost importance to the coutite y. I .hi
now advert trithe ogre of Secretary of St Ile for Emig.
Affairs. One weal feature of the policy by which Oa
country is distinguished no the Continent, is the sup-
port which it has always been noir to great se
:he interest of the Protestants in &Brien! parts of
Europe. That support has nor been confined to the
Protestants in the latter States, bat has been emended'
to the inhabitants of petty tertitoties, and to threes/to
exiscscittired through Catholic countries. We have
opposed the opposition of their Governments to the
Protestant inhabitants of Catholic countries, and store
conspla.nts of these people were beard through the FO.
reign Secretary, as the representative of the Leg. I
do not like to mention names, el,e I might refer to ate
individual who illed the Foreign Department for many
inpar% and who Z bad frequent opportunities of knowing
terfered often on behalf of the Protestants of the
Continent. Now, Ido not say that a Roman Catholic
would not concern himself in similar cases of none.
'Wit but I think it fair to inquire if a P.o Mare
community could repose trust its the . disposition
of a Roman Catholic to relieve them ?—(Hearo.--
Mete is also a very large portion of his Majesty's sob-
jects residing upon the continent who naturally desire
to be protected in their religious worship; and there ate
also many Clergymen attached to congregations to meal
on the continent. all of whom require and expect pro-
tection at the hands of their cutti.trl. I will net,
however, pursue tAis branch of the subject any further,
but leave it for the consideration of your Lordships.
It is also, my. Lords, of vast importance that the Sus
;mufti for the Colonies should be well affected towards
the Protestant Church. I may speak (tom (aperients
if a Noble Lord whom 1 now see in his piece. and
abo presided for many years over that d pertinent
to the benefit of this country and with cridit anJ honour
to himself—of whom, indeed. I may say. that while
Sling this arduous office be maintained a character
which has never been exceeded. I had the honour of
being in the confidence of that Noble Lord, and 4
being often estimated by him with reference to she
'concerns if his de, 'mint. and I speak from what I
harm when I say that he di-charged his dude, with
temperance and seal, with a firm desite for the main!
Nuance of religion, with the most con ideate kindness
towards the clergy, and with the 1110 t scrupulous cafe
to prevent dissensions in the colonies il this kingdom.
over otiose interests it was his destiny to preside. Hi
conduct was, in fact, such as to produce towards bias
in my mind a deep and sincere respect, which I shall
preserve to my dying day. Now, I will ask this Noble
Earl if he be not fully and entirely aware that no Roman
Catholic Secretary. for the Colonies could have done fee
the churcheiof those Colonies that which the Noble Earl
was upon so many occasions enabled to do ? Nay, I
will go farther. and contend that, if a Roman Catholic
Secretary were desirous to do as much for the Cole-
Dial Church as the Noble Earl had ever does, he
would not have the power to carty his wishes • bus
effect—that be could not, in shots, be as elective a
Minister as one who was. Protestant—and that Meadd
not effectually discharge his duty as the representative of
the King. With respect, then, to the power lodged
hi the hands of the Colonial Secretary, it is sufficing•..
fee my argument to state, that be has at his disposal
ostensive ecclesiastic patrooage—that be mast base
great inflame over the appointments of Bishops, Arch-
deacons, and Chaplains—and that, if all such appetite-
is lre-rat at his disposal, a great portion of sock
peeronage mutt, unvestionably, remain in his basis.
Brit., my Lords, this is not all. Tbe Colonial Seetetarl
'possess,' abw fete power over the comforts of the Cols
eial Clergy. It has often happened, that in consequeiot
,inien
4 'clibbensiHns oasis* in our Colonies, although tbS .
Clergy have been in no way to blunt for such dissua-
sions, that they have been under the necessity of apply-
ins to the mother country to protect their inmate
and to purges ve their rights. I assert, then, my Lordly
that those interests and those rights would sot be
..ate in the hands of a Roman Catholic Colonial .
Secretary of State; and I contend that, if the Cabala '
secretary of State be not aciaited hie Protests* fri•
. it, be may poi,tessis:fluenee .to discourage almost to .:
-ittugni-hing the Church of England in many .it IN' .
lows, of (heat Braude.. My la,lista, it is impossible,
i conceive, he ail ',emits of a religious mind to leek
i England wt. twat et.nsidering her to be, and to have
mg toren, a chobeii stistiun eut in the hands iii Peon-
isocs for Carrying satigton to the uttermost ends of .
a t...rth, and.tot 1100141014 Kb iriluefee o.er all. parts
. Jae Itabitalle b,lol.e.l.lrislor the sa coin, and aiclJ Di

ars chit• . the ChtiYith of which
areitioges, • 10ifiltihat Chl
ch stank , Iptittsts of that C
nsistedi itte trt concession
►tied -..0 !et s. has left MI
he Scent eehension of injury I
r, tar the apreisr to Opirsie the'
. . .