Star.
London, England, 1816-03-05 00:00:00

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io a nortiitttional point of view, whin
taajotained independently of Parliament...-
31 •;t was stationed, the proper course would
lea in Parliament the coatroul over its par.—.
conideration.was, should France fail in the
ntr
sof of her contribution, how could the British
iy be sepported ? Ministers coold not attempt to
be op the deficiency yitfo'ut a palpable and nil-
option of the Constitution—(Hear).
io CHANCELLOR of the EXCI4EQUER
ored, ;hat the only doubt he entertained on the
y. of the honourable and Learned Gentle.
IV/notion was as to the time ot its invoduction,
thought ;t woald be better the matter should
oft to the discreti.)n of his Noble Friend (Lord
onto), who would doubtless pay att.!ntion
sobesobject. The object would, he thought, be
.ittained by bring left to the discretion ot tl.e

gee;
SPEAKER observed, that if the instructions
Dow ordered, they would, of course, he mm
on the Committee. If introducud in the
mime, they would, of course, be open to mo.

W. Oli.•
Vir WYNNE thought the more proper and
tie course would be, that the Committee should
oe instructions in the first instance. These were
Estimates recommended by the Crown . for the
lickration of Parliament. At the end of the
rt it was stated, in a uote, that the British troops
p alaintained in France by virtue of a Convention
oar country, and that it was not neceslary to
*charge of that branch ti the establishment
loi
Parliament. It the Estimates, with this super.
sate, were received without continent, the
Inie would, in fact, be tolerating this mode of
Npg a British army.
iastructioas to'the Committee were then car.
id. Ori theooestion being put that the Speaker

likeee we chair—
ge WARD expressed his anxiety to declare, that
fingta to the Committee, he did not consider him-
ifpledgecl-to the Estimates, which were for ulterior
oiderition. Without feeling an indifference to the
Teconstitutional paints which belonged to a dis-
-000 of this kind,- he had yet to confess, that his
• 'on. were princip;illy confined to the financial
of the plan. In this view, he did not mean it as
• compliment, wlim he said, that die speech of
tight lionote able Friend composite (Mr. Tierney)
• eal•:-er, A few nights ago, had exct:eLkd eV :•11
$lOlO iged po.ver. ok that distinguisaed Loan.
Near, hear ) In looking at Isis point of the
t, h wield aot ies into Coe extend, d scale of
colonial settlements ; but with the Neble Lord
had !Ately 'sp.,kon (Lord Lascelles) he would
,that the great evil was in the system of our sax-
: He set no Value on our colonial acquisitions.
:t rroald prefer a state of domestic peace to an Ar-
,'p ataoi Islaeds7—( Hear, hear.) On the question
the Property Tax, he would sly, that he doubted
necessity, and he would also incidentally remark,
at the measure in all its Et iges should have his de-
. opposition. With reference to the Army and
dance Estimates, he thought they contained un-
wary demands—( Hear, hear,)-.-and he hoped
.at tbeNobk Lord (Castlereagh), the occasion of
abstnce he greatly regretted, had been in-
- by his colleagues of what had passed daring
*age from that House, and particularly of the
and character of the minority who voted on
ay last He (Mr. Ward) would certainly
. to the present Estimates.
. PROTHEROE stated, that it would be un-
to return the Estimates without fan exami•
into their contents. But in going into the
tee, he would not vote for a single item which
unexplained. He lamented the cisclaratien
Noble Lord (Castlereagh) when he asserted,
agreat military force was necessary to preserve
- of Europe, for in his (Mr. Pretheroe'e)
that peace could never be established with
confidence and security, until the civil power
an ascendancy over the military. Onr- insular
was cur best security, and required little aid
military character. The spt inn of our free Con-
. would renovate our internal system, and ul-
y establi,n the prosperity of the country. There
so necessity cf meintainiug a I:irge establislanent
this country, eltheugh he feared there was in Ire. J
The prople here were so-trained to aims, that
amid at any time furnish a sufficient number
wr exigeecies. His great apprehension was, that
bad, on the present ()cc:suit:lo, calculated
easUishment witheut properly considering the
/fie country--(Hear, hear.) Our financial
were paramount to all others, and were
Pat enls which we should prepare to avoid.—
kering statement relative to our revenue was
'tied to consideration. It was built on a fel-
if the names of those who were engaged
11111Ineta and exports were published, many ef
would have been found either in the swollen
lout late bankruptcies, or in the equally no-
•• stall of those who had taken the benefit of the
en t Acts. He had bad in Bristol a local op-
' of knowing the distresses of the commercial
they were truly alarming. It requited great
to avow the principle of the Property Tax,'
'(blt- Protheroe) lamented that if this tax were
the necessities of the country still called
Peat supply, and, he saw no better mode of
it titan by calling. yo great corporations and
establishments fur a contribution suited to
leans. He by no means intended to say, that
- y Tax was not susceptible of great ante-
it. certainly was. But the main point was,
s" of national expense, which ought to be
to its lowest scale.
ROBINSON suggested the convenknce of
the House to resolve itself into the Commit-
us to their admitting the introduction of
topics of debate.—(llear).—Tben his Noble
(Lord Palmerston), would have an oppurtu-
cigiviiig the necessai y explanations.
4NLIGENI' wished to be understood as not
clog upon the principle of the question, iu
.214 in their esiing into the Committee ; os.
(7rarYl he believoi that many might think
s"mittee ?be proper place for.ericoenteting the
or the katimates--a proposition most non.
iL7.s extravei;et:e iliest unsafe, wed uneosistitu-
te would prtoa:st againht the measure ii &tine,
mould never consent to the R-port, unless
7444 t" wore not only roducal, but mUlte4l4l7

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altered the Committee. He witild net also sepu
rate the eeorbitant system of texetion.from the q
tiOn of the MiliterY-Estehlisemeet ; they were both,
he contended, inseparable in. their charscter, and
the preient was not the moment • when the people
ought to be called to pay, with the Property Tax.
tor the re-chase of a standing army.. This was not
the moment when the people should be oppressed for.
the pa-!rnent of that idle and peevish system of gew-
gaw dress, which had lately converted our army ot
soldiers into (Apperently at least) an army of milli
ners. The advisers of the him@ Regent should see
that this was an idle, unmanly, and deitgetous po-
licy. It was much better that a Btish Prince should
be surrounded by the unboueht affections of his peo-
ple than by squadrons or Germanized Hussars, who
were expensively maintained at a moment when eco-
nomy should prevail. This proposition went on the
verge and threshold of a military dospotTsm. It was
alike fatal to the power of Parllaunent and the liber-
ties of the people.
On the metion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER. the House then resolved itself into
the Committee of Supply. But Mr. Brogden, the
regular Chairman of the Committee of Supply, not
Icing in his place, and areelier fl.ei.surable Member
being about to take the Cher, the former was loudly
cabed for by several Menthers of the Opposition.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
assured the House that Mr. Brogden was indisposed.
(Hear, and laughier.)
Lord PAtivIERSTON, in opening the Estimates
for the present year, observed, that he would not go
ever that part of the Estimates which had In•en al-
ready debated ; but would reserve himself for reply.
In the first place they should remember, that this
was not so much a time of settled peace, as an inter-
mediate period between the war expenditure and the
final reduction of the National Establishment, which ,
would bz effected as speedily as nessible. The re.
duction of the Military Establishmeet of the present
year, in comparison with diet of the last, was 74,000
men, and in amount of charg • 415,000,000. Beginning
with the land forces, there was a reduction of 1300 in
the honsehoki troops, this emnunted £35,00; the
reduction in the cavalry 90(X), amountinr, t0:2314,30U.
lAtter enernerating some of the arrangements relative
to toe deceits of the forces in this country, the Noble
Lord proceeded to state, that it was the intention of
Grave: tment to reduce all tee Veteran and Garrison
Beteilinits, two o' the West Itetia Regiments, and all
the Provincial Corps in North America, which would
create a sonsiderable searing to the counts f. A re.
duttiou ot expense, eineunting to £392,000 would
be occassaned by limiting the number of Quarter-
Masters, the beer and marching menet., and the
baunie and forage allowances. In the East IndiC
Regiments; 742 men would be discontinued, and a
greet reduction would take place in the recruiting
service ; 41,436,000 would al-o lie saved by the dis-'
etnbod) log .f toe Militia, was in a progress to-
wards its complete reduction. The following reduc-
tions were also made in our exieeeleure :—.C3,767
in the pay of General Officers, together with a dimi-
nution of three Aides-de-Camp ot the Prince Regent,
and two of the Dote of York's, besides si'veral Ma-
jor and Brigadier. Generals ; on the Fort ign Seeff,
five Commanders of Fortes, one Gen-ral, and fifty
Majiir-Generals, were to be reduced ; on the British
Staff, two Mejor.Generals, two Aides-de-Cam-u, and
two Brigade-Majors ; and in guernsey end'ltilky,
two Major-Generals were to be substituted for the
LLutenent-Generals now commanding in those
Island---a further reduction of the Staff would ne-
cessarily arise in those Establishments. On the Fo-
reign Staff, the Corm-name:r of the Forces it Ceylon
would be succeeded by a Lieu:en:int-General; the
same at the Cape, the Mauritius, Gibralter, and Ja-
maica, where the Commanding Officers wouldbe suc-
ceeded Sy ethers of inferior rank, with a reduced Staff.
There would in smaller items b..• a saving on the fo-
reign staff of twenty thousand pounds. In the lud
pay of Superior Officers, there was an increase of
nineteen thousand pounds. The reductions in the
public departments amounted to sixteen thousand
pounds ; in the estiddishruents of the Cummander-in-
Chief, the Pay Office, War Office, and Adjutant and
Qiiarter Master General's Offices. In Exchequer,
Fees there would be found a diminution of fifty-two
thnusand pounds. In the Ont-pensioners, there was
an increase of £162,000 ;—in Widows' Pensions
£6lOO. The Noble Lord here went through the de-
tails of reduction in the Volunteer Corps, which
amounted to £14,000 ; and that of the Local Mi-
litia to t 263.000. H also explainid, that the Per.
manent Staff could not well be reduced until the
corps were altogether disbanded. In the Military,
Celiege there was a reduction of 4377 ; but in the
Military Asylum there was an increase of 411,000,1
owing to the extension of the inientine part of. the
Establishment. The reduction in retiring Chaplains'
was £899 ; in incidental expenses, £58,000 ; in thou
Commissariat of Ireland, I€loo,ooo ; and in the
Barrack Department of the seine kingdom, thirty.
fOur thousand pounds. A reduction would likewise
soon take place in the establishment of British officers'
serving in the Portuguese Army. (Hear, hear )--.1
The present charge under this head was not to be
permanent, as those officers were not to be continued
on the same footing, and nothing delayed the final
arraugetnent respecting them but the concurrence of
the Portuguese Government, which ,could not of
course be readily known in this country,, from the
great distance of the Brazils. Without proceeding
through all the minutia: of the various items, which,
however, he would explain if required by anti Gen-
tleman, he thought it sufficient generally to state,
that the entire diminution amounted to 74,000 men,
and' an expense of five millions. Evea in the Esti-
mates fo: the present year, there was another million,
which in its nature was altogether temporary, and
would not, he hoptd, appear in those of the succeed:
ing year. If the Estimates were compared with
those of 1814, the diminution of expense would be
about eight millions, and this he held to be an evi-
dence of the serious intention of Ministers to reduce
the Military. Establishment of the country as low as
wax consistent with the honour and security of the
country. He thought it necessary to advert to an
assertion that had beta mades respecting the amount
of the saving that would take piaca on a diminution,
of twenty or thirty thousand men. This he had
stated to be about ,C600,e00 ; and, notwithstanding
the contradiction that had been made to that, he
would evince the truth of his position. Oa the face
of the Eetizaato it appeared that the expense of

§0,a0() men in Francs Wits aidi9o4o6_ • SolOP•ing
'this army to be d, banded, the lsalf4ray of Eh,: 011i-
eel's would arno.int £159,000; and i.o fewer than
a quarter of the corn would, ace,:r.ling to Nir.Wirr.!
hae,s preposition, be evstitled 9:11 a Jay pens!
this would amount to £110y.)01, soaking tog t"
£286,000, which, if deducted from the whole amott
would leave little 'iu than he hid stAtrd. He el n•

ceived that the best rno,le of coesidering the Est.
mates would be to argue each sep:ir 'rely, and, lot
that purpose, he would move, as Ow firs, I.•soluii At .-
4, That it is the opinion of this Co.miniare, that an
army not exceeding 176,d15 mei, incluiing the arms
in Franc-e, and that appropii.acd to the s,frvice of th:
East-India Company, be granted to hia Nl.tje,ty lo
the :service of the oresert year, frim the 2.5,.h of 1)e.
cember, 1815, to the `21411 of December, 1816, being
361. days." On the question being re.,J,
Mc. BANKES toss, and said that he perfeale
agreed wilt' his Noble Friend, in believing that the
most convenient mode of considering the Estimates
was to examine them separately ; but he ale) though(
diet the present resolutron involved the general ques-
tion of the entire peace establishment. L w :s for the
Committee to consider the nature and extent of the
proposed E.timates, and to regulate them accordiii%;
to their own feelings of their iustice and necessity
On this account, he was surprised that certain Gen
clemen, who had always the Constitution in their
mouths, eleauld have refused to go into a Committee,
and there exercise their undOubted- right to correct
and Ater every extravagant proposition. By ne-
glecting that plain litre of procedure, the House had
placed itself in an unpleasant dilemma, for had they
succeeded in refusing the Estimates, and sending them
back to the Crown, they would have received them
again from the same Ministers—(Hear, hear.)—
The extent of those Estimates had been represented
as not being permanent. He was aware that all, as
they appeared before the Coni:nittee, were not per-
manent, bet those which seemed to bear a more per-
manent character, amounted at least to 99p000 men.
It had been observed, that certain circumstances then
existed in the political situation of Europe, rendering
such an establishment necessary ; but was it probable.
that those circumstances would vary in a few years?
These circumstances were represented as being price
cipally three. The first was, the unsettled snit d
Europe, an 1 the cnntinneJ existence of that spirit tit
military agitation, which, altivaugh nut actualli form•
ing a tempest, had no., ir.awever, subsided into a calm.
He had, indeed, been serieesly alarmed, by
his Noblz, Friend (Lord Ceolereaei) on a former
night remark, that not :1 tile pr military, spirit of
Europe had seliside.i, it Nis n safe for this country
to disarm. T. cos ee weia:4l advan:at one great ob
jection —that principle would render the p
of this country to sehservient on foreign pewers.
Those powers oviy :IA reel the -,atne ne.":essity or fa
cility of diminishing their eitabli,tiluents as this coun-
try; but if they were to exhaust their re-
soui ces, was that a sutfijent reason for our doing so?
Let this country act according to her own vi,:ws of
cur affairs, and independent of the conduct of foreign
nations, unless when that conduct be ;Atte:iced by
a manifest hostility to our immediate interests. If in
the Treaties of Pacification there were 1.0 stipulati• T.
for a general disarming, some one country must dis-
arm first.--(Hear, hear:)—And what :mitts y should
set the example sooner item thire_wieiclreis..most se.
cure ? Wiry should we be afraid of setting such at;
example ? How do we know hut that it may inure.--
diately be followed ?--(Hear, hear.)—The second
general ground on which this establishment had been
justified, w.s Cie great accession of foreign territory,
and the implied necessity of a larger force for their
defence. This, to a certain degree, could not be de-
nied ; but was the conclusion therefore just ? Instead
of considering an acquLition of territory as a cause of
an increased force, it was on many accounts the direct
contrary. He instanced particularly the acquisition
of St. Lucia, which, by being reduced. under our
power, was thereby converted from a hostile position
to one more friendly. The lonian Islands were repre-
sented as requiring, an additional force ; but even sup-
posing that they, or any Miter of our islands, were ex-
posed to danger, they could be defended by a compara-
tively sin ill force, Li consequence of the facility,
'which the command of the sea grants us, to conveys,
troops to any point threatened. The third reason
was founded on the state of the two British Islands,
Great Britain and Ireland. The necessity of a large
establishment in the former was defended on the
ground of increased magazines and depots ; but even
the most fanciful or panic-struck could not fear an
attack from without : the proposed establishment
must, therefore. be a mete waste of strength and
money, which he trusted the Committee would not
sanction. (Hear.) Fur Ireland, he did not think,
under present ,circumstances, 25,000 men too large ;
but he thought that the cause of that necessity
'should be inquired into, anti a different system pure
sued for the future towards that unhappy country.—
But for holding twenty-five thousand men iu
Great Britain no possible necessity could be shown.
On a former night his Right Honourable Friend op-
posite had commented on the large sums that masts
of necessity, be defrayed by this country, independent
of the pay of the troops; but the more it was acces-
sary to expend, independent of Parliament, the muse
anxiously should the House watch over that part
which still continued subject to their controul. He,
however, could' not regard as inconsiderable even the
savings that might be made in the Estimates, nor
could he think with the Noble Lord who introduced
, the Estimates, that if 25 or 90,000 men should be re-
duced, that A saving of only a 8600,000 could be at-
tained. Even that saving should not be lightly va-
lued. But could it be imagined that in Ordinaries
and Extraordinaries more than a million would not
be saved ? He ridiculed the idea that the country
would fall from its military glory if a large establish.
meat were not preserved. But while Wellingten
headed a British army in those countries that lately
belonged to the enemy, he thought our military cha-
racter could not suffer much in public estilnation.—
But in deprecating the support of so large an estab-
lishment, he would adduce the authority of his Noble
Friend, who, on a former night, stated that every
foreign Court was resolved to-cultivate the relations
of amity. As no power then appeared to disturb our
tranquillity, it was certainly sate to reduce our mi-
litary establishment. He would also advance an au-
thority equal to that of his Noble Friend, which was
that of Mr. Pitt, who, in the year 1792, brought. in
his Estimates, assigning 15,700 men for Great Bri-

tan, for ;Mafia *bout 3000, for the Colottles 11,31.-1„
which, with some other items, made altogether f',,r• y
sir thonsand men. He pronthed to hand thy E..ti
mates for the present year on those of 1792, .!iceptine
Ow twenty-five thousand men for Irel ritd, and includ•
tha• lie•;uggened the propriety the tot d
'neve to 55 WO men, in the fol wing J!strilyitior :
Great Britain, 15,700' men ; I r the CI loniet,
2.5.227; and for [:eland, 25,000 The H .acurable
Member th a rgited .n length on the little necessity
:That ecis:ed for a lamer force. No feign Power
could att3eit this country whhout preOar 'lion. War
toes not come like A hurricane. Are there not Mi.
Ji,ters abroad who could apprite luti of the prepare.
tioat of the enemy ? and in such a case, could out this

count() proceed tt-r: Mmes as rapidly in pre-
p.trations-to resist ? The vittl intere,t% ttl the ceiun.
try requited ec :tvqny and retr-nclment, as .ate al
was cocutistent with the at y o( the natiim ; but he

not conceive that the tnnstitution was in the
lea%t endangered ity a standing array, eccept as the
Crown was thereby arched with a stealing and cot.-
r.ipting intlaeLice, which w.hild, in time, destroy
0:e labertied ()1 the cutgary.—(HeJr, /gar.) He
th.n entered int,, a brill oxaminattint t the suds
Of the finances, which b•r incapable of

snpp'►rtint; the expert e of :he provsed Estimates..
['his &minded the consideration of the House, for
it was not France or Austria t•►ec had :o tear, bus

their internal enemies, which were silently ,Jet.tresying
them--a national debt, and an impt..videat expels-
diture-:—( arks of bear, bear).— II the tes,-,urces cat the
co►tntry %vete not saved at peseta, when war !same
necessary we should enter on it iti an exhauste.4
ditiun. If, on the other hand, we now were
dent, it is impossible to imagine ►chit a spring. an
energy, this country would obtain. llr trusted that
the present resolution would be negatived, and that
some Member there, more competent than hi riseli,
would proprse an estimate that could be approved by
die House.

'Lord CASTLEREAGH siid, that having bums
ptevented, by indisposition, from expressing his sen-
timents in the previous debates whicii had taken place
on this subject, and bt-ing still rather onwc.4l he Wall
Anxious to t .ke the variieit opp.n-tuaity of debve,i.l
his view of the Lurd,hy ;11,211 L. ok a

complete view of tie Estimates. He beean by ex-
pressing leis extreme aniteey that th strishil
undergo the fu:lest inv,etigetioit, in wh;cii he had
been gratified by the conduct of the Gzittlemen op.
posite. He must, however, say, that concitue
done) alarms had been weedy ellAprited ; eye.
they h id had the good effect of nairowieg the geese
tion in the subs;ratutu as to whet was the grudge!.
amount of the forces that are necess try. He via
ready to go with the Gentlemen un the ether site., as
to the cleestirm of economy ; for as the p opt: lied
traced erfgely and confidently to Ministers, and lead
given them the meens of bringing. the wet to a gig- ••
n ous conclusinii, it was a double tut)? fill then .art
to chew a nuked spirit to relieve them fr n► all
possible bind:ens. He must therefore pretest eg case
those Elite and unjust arguments whieh were true
()toyed to inflame the minds of the people, by nuking •
them believe that such a small relief as they would
expeiience in the preseet rear would he ••r no Aileen..
ee and ought to be deeesel. t'he q irso en fer cute. •
aeration was, whit ivlitt could teat:), la.: liftnlicsii
veitheut breaking down the bettiess of out natters tid '
eeeete, which, it once deal nyed, ceal.l ',fever be ffi.
established ? All that he claimed from Wizen wese
that they would not stare. his Majesty's hhaiseereto
be clamoured down by bold mid broedsessezeons :hat
they are adverse front economy; (hear ) ioi ;le c.nid -
assure the House that the diffi_ultiee that were ial.
posed on Ministers in c.Aidficting, the .atits p-ace,
were infinitely greater than any they has yet had
to under go while conducting the war te its glorious
end. —(Hear.)—Therel ore, if they Could rind the
means or giving lerge mil practical reliet to the
country, the House and the public might be cue&
clut that it would be deem.d their an et rattiest
duty to do so. Ministers were periectly aware, that it .
at the present moment they wcie to take way erten:ou.
view of the public revenue, they weule, in enotber
year, fiad themselves under accumulated diffieitties
and thus, though they might err in jteignieet, it
ought to be believed that they had an in per-
forming their dety, though they weuld ntver he
found seeking to captivate the public *opiidea by
holding forth prospects which had no chance of being
realized. This declaration. he trusted, w mid tend
to dispel that cloud of prejudice so trujusly anti un-
generously raised against his Maj-sty's Goeerneieut,
by endeavouring to establish a cart of case aetliust
them on the ground of economy, as to what they
have, or what they have net done in the present 6.,5-sion.
sion. In the course of last year the House had ea-
taiuly confided to Ministers a greater alununt of
colliery supplies 63%1 w is ever helorc ;;ranted at at.y
time, or in any country. The total amount, inc.:til-
ing the extent oidebt, was about In niaboo, seer.
flog. At thatistime it was not merely hi one, bet in
almost every part of the world teat we were en-
gaged in war ; our prospects were ti.er,f,re 1,),k d
to, not only as difficulties to be overcome, but, as
such, the end of which c told not he lirre!ClCl—
Tliese wars, however, had been all gleremsly to i ree_
nated by Treaties, which bore at least as great en
appearance of permanency as any which hid been
made at firmer periods ; and the alin.nt immediAte
result had been that a reritietioe of the expense; :rein
last year had not been less than eke niihion.. We
were, from the nature of our situation, incapable of
applying reduction, as a system, except by small
degrees. Hew many years elapsed, after the Anse-
rican War, before we recovered from tote distress in
which it left us? The contrast, hewever, at present
was most triumphant ; we had provided for our
difficulties as we went aleee„ en.; to etare he trusted
we should come more rapidly to our eettkd Peace
Establidirnent than we ever did bethre., It court' by
no means be considered that the Peace Estehlishineut
now proposed was likely to be permanent;—.here
would be many reductions effected by time site cir-
cumstances. The Estehlishaitett tor the present year
would truly cost about 29 mirlioni, instead of eigleys
There could Le no presuniptila teat e;nvereite nt
h .e. net accelerated every possible re.!ection is far
as posiible.dt had evea be-n ells redruat h
in some quarters, that tee reduction in the Navy
heed too rapid. There vt as every peke to be een
end the reJuctiou el the Army was going on As re-
pidly as possible ;.--to insinuate °tiler WISC WI4 till
giving the Executive Government that credit they,

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bY Gentlemen opposite. He did not blame them for
having raised the Property Tax to double what they
find it--(Hear, hear)—tor it was found a necessary
impose ; but he legged them not to torture his
ferliogs by speaking of it on all occasions, as a
horrible, infamous, and incjuisitoriah measure, which
no man Could impose on the country without
committing a crime.---(Hear, hear, hear.)—
He admitted it was a question bezween.Ministers and
their opponents,' whether a tax in war is to be a tax
in peace ? He would not contend that it was, but he
Would take the, intermediate propositions, and con-
tend, that when we were pressed down by the remains
of a war expenditure, if the community could be re.
lieved from its operation by the amount of one half,
and those who were least able tolear it were relieved
teem it altogether, it required more nerve than was
possessed by any yet of men he had met with before,
to come and clamour it down before the war expendi-
ture was closed, as an ietolerable and inhuman im-
position—(Hear, hear, hears). By soch conduct, he
Must say, that they not only turned their backs on
nsisteucy of argument, but even on decency. if the
reduction in the army proposed by the Gentlemen
Opposite were to be made, we should have to pay
back a great proportion of the half-pay and pen-
sions; instead of two millions, the fifty-six thousand
Men would cost thrre millions, and thus we should
require a larger vote for no service than Mr. Pitt had
for service. Out of the 20 millions there were not
less than two millions fur dead expences of the Army,
aod one million for the Navy; so that there wa, less
than 17 millions, instead of 20, for the support of it.
Jt could not hut be known that the pay and every
other expenditure of. the army had nearly doubled of
laze years. He then ectered into details of improve-
ments made in the army, which made them mote ef-
ficient for horny, but not so competent for colonial
service, owing to the abolition of the foimer system
of drafting. He called on tire House to divest them-
selves of the delusion that the scale of expense was
al small in proportion to numbers as it was in I T 0.2.
He justified the retent:on of British troops in France,
on several wounds, one of which was, that if they
were at home and disbanded, we should have to find
Money for the half•pay and pensions. When such an
establishment as 110,000 men was voted, it was
utterly impossible for any body to conceive that this
number was put into the hands of the Execative Go-
vernment. It would be nothing like .u.:l a number,
as it woolci be reduced by casollties anal cat':.-r circum-'
stances at least one-tenth. Of this a, relief of 7,000
a year would be annually going. abroad to replace
tbpse whuie time had expired, chile those who re-
turned, instead of giving back th.tt numhir to the
establishment, were mere skeletons, nut fit fot any
service. tie then repeated all that had been said on
a former evening by the Secretary for Ireland, on the
absolute necessity of, 25,000 men fur that part of the
Empire, though he was no: without sanguine hopes,
that Ireland would soon return to a state of
order, when this establishment might be reduced.—
The amount of troops nectssary for colonial ser-
vice, was the next topic, on which the N, hie Lord
descanted at comiderable leogth, stating the amount
, of forte ire every one of our possessions abroad, arid
contendingobat each had as salon a numbor as was
consistent with their security. The country had not
to look at any other danger than what was contingent
upon human afia:rs; but the world had been thrown
into such a state of activity, that it was in vain fur
Gentlemen to suppose they could lay down all at
once in peace under their vines and fig-trees, and dis-
miss all expense. A military force was also as ne.
votary for the home as the foreign service. There
was no civilized country in the world that did not
require a military force to be ready to aid the civil
power, as there was no nation on earth who did not
at times shew symptoms of impatience. C.eitainly,
any danger, of this kind was less to be. apprehended
is this country than in any other ; but the laws ought
to have the necessary support. He ridiculed the idea
that the troops in England were 'trended to garrison
Dover Castle, and arm every ether foltiiication, ea/t-
-o:fie: It was local tholes they hall to perform, and
out of the 25,000, there were not to be expected mote
than 13,000 Et for duty. He justified the employ.
Gent of ihe military in the prevention of smuggling,
here and m Ireland; observing, that a very small de-
fect in the revenue would be more than equal to the
pay of a very large body of troops. He &hewed bow
the whole amount of force was dispersed all over the
kingdom, and declared on his conscience, that he he.
lieved no branch of the establishment would bear sift-
ing to the bottom more than that employed at hcnne.
Adverting to the force maintained iu Canada,he took
air opportunity of paying a high tribute to the loyalty
and fidelity of the people of that Colony, and com-
mented, in pointed terms, on its vast commercial
importance, which was equal so a fourth of all Our
tietnage and trade. After spewing Liee relative im-
portance of all our other foreign possessions, he said
he felt that the savings so. much talked about could
' not be made at the present moment, without incur.
ring the greatest risk, which might affect every man
to the last hour of his life. He wculd not quarrel
*Oh the Gentlemen opposite about the smallness of
the savings; but when they asserted that we were
better without our Colonies than to beat the expense
of prthecting them, it was necessary to awakes the
country from such fallacious arguments and delusions.
To persuade the people that the relief they will expe-
rience by the savings in the present year, is a trifle
which ought to be spurned at, was cruelty and in-
justice. He would say it WA4 a proud triumph for
the country, that they wend themselves now, at the
end of the most arduous struggle, more extritordinos y
and arduous indeed, than they had encountered in
any former wa-', not merely victorious, not covered
cloy with glory, lent with a fixed character beyond
any which they had heretofore otrtained-...4 charac-
ter which v.-as the admiration of the whole
Every body knew that Ptace must be a period of
sevulsrou ;. but iustcad of trailing for years outlet bit,

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ter tenth* at-wes the ease itt tete end of the Ame.
video war, when it was nefessary to esekte a revenue,
what was the situation in Which we now stood
The Government, !elite first year of peace, was ena-
bled to Rive a boon to the people, by the remission o
not less than eight millions of taxes; and yet, such
was the novelty of our situation, that the Gentlemen
'opposite held this triumph cheap 1 (Hear, hear, free:
all parts Mt Horse )—'llist small diminution of our
expenditure which could be effected by the reduction
of our military force, recommended by the Gentle.
men opposite, was not an object olimportance when
compared with the value of those defensive'establish-
ments, which must be given up if this course were
adopted. He did mean to say, that if the arrange-
ments made by Ministers with respect to the force
intended to be kept up were wise, it naturally fol.'
lowed that the Property Tax mu%t be renewed; but
he gave it as his opinion that this must be done (on
the reduced scale proposed) if die House wished to
relieve the present distress ul the country. The modi-
fications which would be made in favour of the former
would be such, that these, combined with the relaxa-
tion of the duties on horses used in husbandry, would
make the tenant feel as if be paid no Property Tax at aIL
The Chancellor of the Exchequer would thus, without
at all altering the genius and character of the tax,
which nobody could more admire than the Gentle-
isen opposite—(Hear, hear)--as they had proved
when in power, by 'missing it to ten per cent.—(Hear,
hear)—would effectually relieve from its pressure
those en whom it had been feared its operation would
be most severe.' By renewing the Property Tax; we
should wind up the war with that spirit in which it
had been conducted, and this would bring ease and
prosperity borne to every man sooner than they could
possibly be attained if a different course ensued ; and
if, instead of meeting the exigencies of the year iii the
way proposed, we escaped them for the present by
haying recourse to a loan. He considered the pre.
sent question to be one of the largest, in all its bear-
ings, that could ever come under discus:ion. He
wished it to bc billy met, and fully investigated, and
he .was confident the House would not take up those
gloomy views which some Gentlemen were disposed
to enter: tin of the st lie of our resources. He trusted,
by boldly meeting the difficulties wl.ich were yet t.
he encountered, it would be seen that we proudly con-
tinued, in peace, to adhere to those principles which
had borne us triumphantly through the war. If
by renewing the Ptoperty Tax, at five per cent.'
they did nst artificially supliport the credit of
the country, he was convinced the public in.
terest, would suffer, too this done for two ,years,
he could conceive a variety of ways, by which,
without descending front our high situation, we
might be enabled to give up the Property Tax.
The Sinking Fund might be in such a state two or
three years hence, that that whitly.world be a most
dangerous experiment now, might be safely ventured
upon then, and its 'immense operation might admit
of sortie relaxation, without at all operatrng'to the
Noey of public credit. He hoped it would be plain
to every Englishman, we had within ourselves the
'means of sustaining our greatness. He would go
along with the flun.•Geritlemao apposite in reducins
the prt Witt e4Flsl...ihmenis, so tat gai this could beitionet
consistently wiih our eationalsecurity ; but be wopld
oppose that false economy, which, to effect a small
saving. would give up *establishments which he belA
to be intimately connected with the best interests'
the country.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord MILTON rose to speak to the question ; but
an adjournment being proposed, the Coascetooft of
the EACIIUQUEN inquired it there was a dill osition not
the opposite side to posteone the motion ef the Hon.
Member for E•sex (Mr. Western) which stood for
Tuesday, to a future day ? This being objected to,
after a short conversation, in which Mr. Brougham,
Mr. F. Lewis, Lord Milton, Sir C. Monck, Mr.
Huskisson, ..nd Mr. Tierney participated, it was
agreed that Mr. Western's motion should come on
thus day, and that the Adjourned Debate should be
resumed to-morrow (WedurSd..y.)
Mr: fiRN:i.)lll moved for sundry Papers relating to th? Im-
ports in..: 1 spic.!!t ut Raw links and Manufactured Leather,
seelajt ht ; stud for au Avrtitait of Draw-
backs oil thvreoo, s:atin • it to he his intention, on the pi-wine-
d= in such Vap,ttll, to bring lot warJ a motion with a view of
benefiting rite Leather Trade in its various branchils. The me.
tion was agrei.d to.

Mr. BLACKBURN gave notice of a Motion on 'Tuesday next,
for a Com:ill:tee to inquire into the Income and Expeme of the
Trinity Corporation.
The House then resumed, and after a few uniinportant Papers
I:a4 been brought up, Adoto..ed at i eve o'Clock rii.s Muttons.

FR Alv H PAP L RS.

PARIS, MARCII 1.

Yesterday the Duke d'Augouleme reviewed the
Royal and National Guards on duty, who were
mustered for the purpose in the ernirt of tile Carousal.
The tour lately made by Lucien Bonaparte
through the P.ipal States, induced the belief that he
was about to depart privately for America, but the
supposition was unfounded, as in point of fact Lucien,
has returned to Rome, and there is no appearance of
his intention to depart for the other hemisphere.—
Letters from Milan state, that the negotiations
between the Courts of Vienna and Turin are termi•
Dated amicably, and that Sardinia has agreed to the
cession of Alesaudria.

Marshal Massena has published a Memorial in
answer to the Petition Item the Bouches-du-Ithoue,
-presented to the Chamber of Deputies in the sitting
of the 7th of February.
The Departmental Legion of the Straits of Calais
is now WO strong.
At Tulle the organization of the Gendarmerie is
terminated. .01 VS men 44 ha.ve been sent back. 01
' these soveral have bad rensi,ns Goole: red upon them.
The new organization of the War Office is defini
tively arranged. Twe hundred and fifty clerks and
assistants have been reduced.
VENICI, FEBRUARY is.
Letters from Milan give us the deligktful bopethat
we shall obtain the freedom of our port. We have
in our quarantine station two vessels from -Smyrn.i.
It appears that the situation tat that city becomes
every day more afflicting, and this is owilg not more
to the plague than to the ageias of G..verement.
The palace of the ,Goveraor, it is .said, has been. pur-
posely set on fire by the p:..nple, v‘!:u were provoked
to it by the plundering habits f! i!,e while:s. The
Goveruer strewed himself, v. as forced to retire.
The heads of five soldicts vr,re cut oZ, and thrown
in the public square.


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'PH V ENING Sl'Ak.

LONDON.

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 1818.
•
PRICE OF STOCK' THIS DAM A f WELVH.O'CLOCK
Itethwed 11)1)-1 (shut to clay) mo. o tit—for acc.
4 per Cent. 77f (abut)-5 pa. Cala. 9s. 4p. pt.
Ositi. 17 if pr...-Do. pay. 17 if•Escis. lltl4 u. di,. 3s. pr.

Last night the subject of the Income or Property
Tax again occupied the attention of the House of
Commons. The debate was conducted with great
spirit, and many most forcible arguments against it
were adduced. The Table was, as usual, filled aith
fresh remonstrances against the continuance of this

odious and certainly most impolitic measure. As an
attempt has been made (we shall not say by whom)
to excite doubts in the public mind as to the under•
standing held forth by Ministers last year that this
Tax would not be again resorted to, in the event of
Peace, we think we cannot better remove ail doubts
on the subject, than by shortly recapitulating the
discussion which took place ou the 19th of April,
last year, in the House of Clnanoiis :

In the course of that debate Mr. Wur u::c.an
stated his fears that the Tax could be s..ddled oa
the Country for ever.— lucre the lioc.ourable Mem-
bet's voice was drowned by cries of No! N.! Irons
the Treasury liench.; and Lord CASTL2REAGII rose,
and expressly stated, that the renewal w•s intenJei
for one year only.

Afterwards, when the House was in Committee,
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mo►t d.stinc.ly
said, " that in 'order to set at test the &Uhl.' of
Gentlemen as to the intention of making the Property
Tax perpetual, he would read his Resolution, which
stated, that it was proposed to renew the Act relating
to a Tax on Propet ty, for sae year only, commencing
from the sth April, 1815."

On Mouthy, May Ist, when the CHANCELLOR of
the EXCHEQUER WAS asked it the same right of appeal
was to be given to individuals unjustly assessed as
they enjoyed under the Assessed Tax Bill, the Right
Hon. Gentleman observed," that as the Income Tax
was to endure for one year only, there would perhaps
be little or no necessity for burdening the Act with
any such clAuse."

We refer oar Readers, with confidence, to any re-
port of the Parliamentary Proceedings of the period
alluded to, which they may have at hand, for the
general accuracy of the above statement. Mean time,
our limits compel us to suspend the further expression
of our own sentiments, to give insertion to the sub-
joined well written and pithy communication from a
Correspondent. who is ooe of many of nur RCA.
Iliao has fawn:wed us with his ideas on the sub-,
)ecr, and to whose communications we shall pAy due
attention:

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own interest, as well
As to the cinebtion
of t • ''..='''''.°lllfl*-1".. we must look to the
na • ' 'et its constitrtion. It could
not .714 • 44: the same expense as a pro.
pOrtionate—!antnber was 'before the great alterations
took place in it which has made it what it is. It was
IliVscary, on comparing. the Peace Establikhment
with that of. any former tame, to take in the charge
given tn,every branch of it, and take into coniidera.
Con the great weight and dead expense established