Star.
London, England, 1819-03-13 00:00:00

BREACII OF PRIVILEGP.

The examination of Mr.. Richard Stnith and Mr.
Carew Smyth was continued till nearly eleven o'clock.
,when it was interrupted by the Idle Acing proceeding :
Sir GEORGE HILL said, that he rose in order to
move that a witness, formerly examined, Mt. Gould,
be called in, and examined ag to a question of privi-
lege. Ile understood that Mr. Gould had receiv"d
a threat as to the manner in which he had given his
evidence at the 13ar of that House, and in which he
might cputiur.e to do so.
Ir. Goold was accordingly called in, and thus ex-
amined by tie SPICALF4I:

Have ycn seen Mr, Grady, jun. slue you gave evitcen:e at
the t fele ?—f have. • -
Did any cone rsation pass betweett y9ul--litere did. •
La; was that Conversation I—About a quarter of an hunt ago

was in the witnesses room, with several other Gentlemen,
when Mr. Grady came to me and said, " Mr. Gould, I wish to
speak to you." I' took off my hat with all the respect I could
hrhim, and replied that I could not speak to him, as it would be
.indelicate while the present inquiry was going on. Ile s.,id he
must speak to me, I replied, that if he pe'rsisted so, I must leave
the room. These were then precisely his words :—" You have
spoken disrespectfully of me in the evidence you gave last night,
and if you do so Grain I shall kick you about the streets."—The
witness withdrew.

Mr. W.. WYNNE thought the only way was to
call in Mr. T. W. Grady.
He was accordingly called in, and thus examined
by the SPEAKER : .

Mr. Grady, you had a conversation with a Mr. Gookl, a wi4-
nese who was examined at that bar ?—I had.:

On what subject, and in what tqms?-1 said, " You have
mentioned my name very Wantonly ; if you do so again, I mast
take notice of it,"—that is: kick him.
Did Mr. GoOld:make any reply ?—None at all.

The witnen withdrew,

Mr. W. WYNNE moved, that T. W. Grady had,
by insulting and threatening a witness befor,! that
House; been guilty of high contempt of that House,
and of a gross breach of its privileges.
Mr. W. WYNNE next moved, that T. W. Grady
should be committed to the custody of .the Serjeant-
at-Arms. He should have moved his commitment
to Newgate at once, but that, during the present in-
quiry, it seemed necessary that he ?hould he in one
of the rooms of the House of Commons—Vicar.)
Sir lt. WILSON said, that it was quite manifest
to the House that Mr. Grady's conduct proceeded
from youth and inexperience—(Heat, /..ca;.)—He
considered Mr. Goolds conduct as he had always
been accustomed to consider insults—( /leer, laar.)—
It must be apparent to the House, from the details
already before them, that he was extremely inexpe-
rienced, a youth of a weak character. lie hoped,
therefore, that they would regard with indulgence an-
indiscretion in which no contempt or breach of pri-
vilege had been contemplated.
Mr. BANKES—The question wasnot what indul-
gence the youth and inexperience of Mr. Grady might
claim, but, what was necessary for the purposes of
justice—(llear, hear.) Having said so, it was only
necessary to add, that justice squired the protection
of an infirm old man—(No, no,)--against the petu-
lance of a young man, whose indiscretion was so
much already laid before the House.
The SPEAKER put the question that T. W. Grady
having used insults, and having used threats to a wit-
ness at the bar of the House, respecting the evidence
he had already given, and the evidence he should
afterwaids give, and having thereby been guilty of
high contempt of that House, and of a gross breach
of its privileges. be committed to the custody of the
Serjeaat at-Arms?
The SPE AKER then announced that it was carried
ncmine contradieenic.

Sir I. COFFIN said that Mr.. Grady's conduct at
the bar was an aggravation of his offence.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, if he might be excused
for the irregularity of speaking after the question
had been disposed of in the only manner in which it
could be disposed of—( Hear, hear)—be only rose
to protest against the construction that had been put
on Mr. Grady's conduct at the Bar—(Near, hear)—
as an aggravation of his offence. On the contrary,
he considered it creditable to him to have in the
most manly and frank manner stated conduct that
was in itszlf improper--(Hcar, /.ear).
Mr. STUART WORTLEY agreed, that he had
seen nothing in Mr. Grady's conduct at the Bar to
aggravate his Offence—(Hear, hear, hear.)
The examir.ation of Mr. CAREW Smvrit was then
resumed. After Mr. CARhw had been exa-
mined, there was a Motion made to call in Mr. T.
W. Grady, the Petitioner.
Sir ROBERT WILSON opposed this Motion, and
submitted to the House that it would be better that
the further investigation of the matter should be ad-
journed, owing to the exhausted state in which the
House must be after the long examination to which,
they had been listening.
Mr. PEEL opposed this proposal, as did also Mr.
CANNING.

Sir ROBERT WILSON asserted, that his chief
reason for postponing any further discussion of the
subject for the present was, that be felt that he
should net be able to' do justice either to the House,
the Petitioner, or the country, in going flintier into'
the Petition at that late hour in the evening.
A short conversation ensued ensued among seve-
ral Members, when it was agreed that Mr. T. W.
Grady was the next witness who was to be called be •
fore the House. .

Mr. CANNING said, that it was for the seeuritr
'of a respectable witness that he had coincided with
the Honourable Gentleman's Motion regarding the
commitment of Mr. I'. W. Grady.
Mr. C. W 1 NN said, that as it would be highly
inconvenient to send Mr. T. W. Grady to Newgate
at that late hour of the night, inasmuch as the Keeper
of the Prison would have no accommodations where-
with to receive him, he should not move that Mr.
Grady be committed to the prison in question. The
reason why he had proposed the measure that he had
done against Mr. Grady, was to prevent the witnes-
ses who at any future time might be called to give
evidence before that House, from being intimidated
by the violent conduct of either of the two contend-
ing parties. Any Gentleman who had been along
with him on the Secret Committee appointed to exa-
mine into the letters of Mr. C. Smyth, would hare
seen the impropriety of Mr. Grady's behaviour. The
consideration of that impropriety led him to say,
that one of the grossest attacks that could be made
on the privileges of the House would be to res:mt
any thing without its walls that had passed within
them—(l/ear, hear).
Mr. CALCIt AFT said, that he conceived the gal-
lant General's object was to protect both parties.
Considering that there was no business going forward
ion the Inc.rrow, he thought that the further investi-
gation of the matter was desirable—(Some cries w'
" Aa' jo:ien, adjourn !")--Ile bad no objection to
young M. Grady's being released from the custody
of the Serjeant at Arms.
Mr. PEEL said, that when he considered the irti-
' tatioa which the Petitioner, who was a young man,
was likely to feel from the course which the Petition
had taken, and when he considered that snchitrita-
tion wu, calculated to•prevent that collectedness, of
which every man ought to be in possession when
examined before that House, he was not inclined to
ait with much severity. If some alteration were not
made in the condition to which the Petitioner
reduCeillimself;' it was -clear, that •he most either.

give his evidence in Newgate, cc • e4e
hension of being instantly sent there.-...tkv1....
The House could not forget that the father .
sent there.—(hear, hear).—lle theught ti
consequences could ensue from the tlischar,,
T.W. (Lady being ordevcd b) that Howe."
Mr. C. W. WYNN had no objection to
being sl.ewn to the Petitiener, if he Wculj
assurance not to repeat the same offence it
Mr. PEEL then moved, that Mr. T.
should be released from the custody of dr:
at-Arms.

bird C. CHURCHILL said, that he
T.W. Wady to be admonished, sew: ey rep;
and then discharged on the payment of las
Mr. BLAKE said, that he thought tl
ought by no means to postpone the invert;
this case : it was not proper that such a cha.
be kept hanging over the head of an lion..
Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that be
principle with the Honourable Member.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY had no ine,
aggravate the crime of which the young(
had been guilty : he would not oppose thl
sense of the House, if it should be for the ,
,of the young man.
Mr. COURTENAY said, that for vAriou
he was not inclined to enter into the questi
ultimate discharge of Me. T.W. Grad'•.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the Home

tber to:consult - its own dignity than the
ct.;,ny individuals.
Mr. CA LC RAFT was for an adjournm
bwiness.

Sir C. MONC'K said, that Mr. Goold
lietOiec with the r.airt. of Mr. Gra.iy, it w

-
natural that the latter Gentleman should fee

inclined to resent it. lie certainly did con,

Grady's conduct ; but still he shotud not f
with himself if he voted against his discha:::...
The lionourable Gentleman was here intvrr
by cries of " Question, question.:']
Mr. GRATTAN thought that the outrageous:-
ner in which Mr. Grady had made his atta,:k on:
Geoid was such as deserved the attention ei

I louse. Every man ougl:t be enabled to state
opinion to the llnle, when called before it as a w
ness, without any fear of personal danger from
whose interests his testimony might be likely to
judice. He was desirous not only of securing
Grady's person, but also his feelings.
Mr. TIERNEY, atter some other remarks,
pressed a hope, that the House would not waste
further time' in idle discussion, but would
ately proceed either to an adjournment a a real
vestigation into the evidence.
Lord C. CHURCHILL, however, persisted ia
determination to divide the House regarding the
monition and reprimand which were to be gi'
Mr. T. W. Grady, previous to his discharge.
The Gallery was then cleared for a divisim,
strangers withdrew; but Lord C. Churcliill
drew his motion, and in consequence the inatter
to the ground.
%en strangers were permitted to re-enter
,Gallery, Mr. BROUGHAM was spe .king in favoo: c
Mr. Goold's being again called to the liar of e
House as a witness.
After Mr. Goold's re-examination, which la.cx
till a very late hour, Mr. LAN:BTOR was of opirt
that further evidence must necessarily be bron;:'
from Ireland, to settle a point which at present
inexplicable, and which implicated the credibility
the too principal wituesses.
Mr. CANNING did not conceive that matterc
such importance as to 'delay the inquiry.
Sir It. WILSON thought it was the duty of
House, to have every information which might

to the true understanding of the quectiom.
Mr. ABERCROMBY conceived the delay in
present instance could not be productive of
as its object would be to sift the matter to the
tom, and thereby arrive at the truth.
Sir R. WILSON then moved, that Mr. Carel
Smyth he called in, in order to give the names ei
his two servants, whose testimony he considered
importance.
Mr.( '.Smyth was then called in, and gavet..
of his servants, Thomas Lambert and SaraiiLy.,:is.

Mr. Goold was also called in, and 0-aye the Hatt:
of his servant, Hugh Riles-.
Mr. LAMBTON moved, that these persons be
ordered to attend at the Bar of the House on Thum
day nest. This was carried in the affirmative.
Mr. PEEL then observed, that he saw no mut
why the petitioner himself should not be called in.
He had pledged himself to prove every allegation
his petition.
Sir It. WILSON had no objection to his being
called, but was unwilling to have him produced as?
witness while in custody. He could not be suppose
to have the vame tranquil L'eliilgs in giving his cr.,
deuce when a prisoner, as he must be supposed w
have when at liberty.
- Mr. PEEL conceived the circurnstutee of his heis
a prisoner ought to have no weight with his test''
mony one way or the other.
Mr. LAMBTON thought that the pledge Cot:
mined in the Petition, to
Prove every allegation ::
contained, did not by any means bind the petitior.-r
to prove it by his own personal evidence, if he dici
by his witnesses.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, theie had been cod
doubt whe(lier a petitioner could be called in mpr,
of his own petition; and mentioned the case of sen:.!
fetitieliers on the Orders in Council, who had will:
drawn their signatures that they might be admttr;:
as evi.lence; but he conceived that a petitioner err:
with propriety be called in support• of his own petitie.
Mr. \V. COURTF.NA was Of opinion that t!
petitioner shd'ild be called to state the grounds upel.
which he had presented his complaint to the Haus,.
Mr. ABERCIIOMBY did not think the evident!
of the petitioner in this case as at all essential.
Mr. CANgING observed, that after what I.; •
fallen,she should persist in wishing that the examin.-
tion of evidence be continued on Monday.
Sir It. WILSON said, it was his in:ention to 11A-.:
called the petitioner himself, but his only obj'ectic
was his being a prisoner.
The question was then put, and the farther exarr
nation of witnesses Vl-as postponed till Monday.

• netuAblincirmiluta•-su..L.
'Oit the motion of Mr. leijSI4INTON, the
rvs*rd itself into a, Cfmriiittieupcit this BM,
Mr. LAMaTON aerselluci; that g that liouz oft.

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wa pan two then two o'clock) it was too late
into ray public business. •
LUSIIINGrON said, he did not conceivethat
objection would' be made to 'any of the clauses,
:c alv, the report woulcrbe received at present, and
vrts.,l to he tan into consideration on a future day.
STCALT ke
WORTLgY had • a clause to pro.
at another period of thit bill, to which he was
,pr to understand there would be no objectiOn
to exempt from the operation of the tax brood-
. These had hitherto been taxed, when he con-
they ought to havenbeen considered like other
:k; for it was well known that in many parts of
, corntrr, particularly in the county where hi re-
!J (Yorkshire), there were several persons who
mares for no other purpose but breeding. Ile '1
12. ht that that ought to -be encouraged, and that
upon them ought to be removed.
swral clause% were then broughtup and agreed to.
Nr. STUART WORTLEY said, that nothing
id be more ridiculous than the whole system of
Assessed Tares, from the manner in which sur-
is were at present made. He hoped that his
sty's
'Ministers would take this matter into their
~.leration, so as that these taxes might be corn-
Inded for by a certain sum. He was certain that,
that method was retorted to, in most instances,
,Ternment would ghin considerably on the whole,
;Gui;ll a nominal loss might be apparent in• some
le,: It was a hardship to find the charges increase
1:or, every additional article which was in Ise. If a
;r.tleman got an additional carriage, or a poor
:shle-boy, the duties upon the others which he might
re had before were considerably increased, besides
!e day upon the immediate subject itself. If he
it a horse but once, and that the animal got lame,
, was turned out for nine months of the year, he
sasto be paid for as well as if used every day. The
cr..nuence was, that many persons who would keep
&able the number of horses, carriages, and servants,
ter obliged to limit their number. The Govern-
rent might think, his was all rigllt, but then they
':arid recollect what an additional stimulus it would
to trade,' to have a greater numbir of carriages
sal, and what a number of persons might find ad-
ditional employment in consequence—(FFllear, hear).
lie trusted his Majesty's Ministers.would give atten-
tion to this matter, which was of importance to the

counM try. •
r. LUSHINGTON said, he had no doubt his
Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Er-
cheener,) world pays attention to what the Honour-
:lie Geralmr.an had suggested.
The 831 then passed through the Committee, and
the Report was received, and ordered to be taken
into further consideration on Monday.
MARINE MUTINY BILL.
On the Motion of Sir Gunton WAIRZI7DER, that
the House should resolve itself into a Committee on
the Marine Mutiny Bill,
Mr. BROUGHAM said, he certainly should object
to the House going any farther into public business
at that late hour : the principle via: one which he
could not sanction, unless a case of urgent necessity
moired it. •
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER had understood
that no objection would be made to the Bill, but that
it would be passed as a matter of course. There were
no new provisions in it of any importance.
Mr. BROUGHAM replied,.that if the Honourable
Baronet would declare that there was a particnlar
necessity for passing the Bill through this stage, he
reuld make no objection.
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER had no 'objection
to postpone it, but he conceived it was of importance
to have it through the present stage.
Sir JOHN NEU PORT could not see any necessity
for pressing public business at such an hour of the
morning ; and if the Honourable Baronet persisted,
he should avail hi rr.self of the. state of the House, and
trove that it be lonnted.—['There were not 4.0 Mem-
bers then preseuf ; and if counted, they must of ne-
cessity hare adjourned.
Sir GEORGE WAR ENDER was aware of the
power which the Right Hon. Baronet had in .this
respect, lint he trusted he woul4 not exercise it on
the present occasion. The Act which this was to
supply would expire on the 25th of the present month,
2.3,1 it should be recollected that this had to pass
through two other stages, and after that to go to the
Lords ; so that it could not pass there and receive
the Royal assent much sooner than the time he had
menfaor.ed. The consequence of delay, therefore,
'would be obviou . There were only two new clauses
la the hi' 1. The one *as for punishing those persons
she should shake false representations on being at-
tested, and the other was tosrender Captains in the
Marines liable to take Parish Apprentices as Well as
Captains in the Army.
The Bill then passed through the Committee, and
ti:e. Report was ordered to be received on Monday.
storm BILL.
On the Motion of Lord Raisttasroa, that the
Report of this Bill be received,
Mr. LAMBTON and Mr. BROUGHAM objected to'
this practice of going on with important public bu-
'lre4s at so late an hour, and at a time when so-few'
1 .lembers attended. The precedent was dangerous.
,:rd PALMERSTON urged the same reason for
ti,is as Sir G. Warrendcr had given for the preoeding
Ir.], -La the pre t Act would expire on the 25th.
ALTHORF sail, this Bill was not in the same stage
th. cth=r. It gas let a more advanced one ; and as they
I:sth to supply Acts which would expire at the same time,
t'" sus of this' Bill was not like the former one.
PA Lmr.RsTom said, the Committee had not ileci-
,:sa he number of men which should be employed.
JOHN NEWPORT conceived it highly irregular to
ary pubic busineas in the House at such an hour. It
h'Ai that these Bills ',rinsed in couscpence of the expira-
the Acts which they were to supply ; but why, as that
bcfore, were they not brought in at an codicils*.
tl-4,1011? It would bo said that du. Committees had
ed sooner to the number of men which should be kept
-art this was one of the bad effects ef transferring to Cent-
-in art the !louse that which should be done upon the re-
cf Ministers.
.Ir. 1. iNIBTON also condemned the sytem of d,legating to
i e the p‘kwt rs tor which Mii:isteri should he r..sponsible.
lie;ort was the., received, and the Bill ordored to be'
third !Am.:. oa illonday next.
.41:. LUSH! (-11.0 N, in moving that the other Orders of
' • Cy be disposed ef, said he was as anxious to get home as
lioerorab!c Gentlemen or tlv other side could be.
r. I.A 1115 TON said, his obiect, and that of his Honourable
to ;set hone. Tarr objestnd to the principle of
..:a With important public business at that late hour, while
Beam WAS so thin. It there was a fun sue...lance, he would
t.) semian till sia or even ten in the morning ; but he
td cut context to have each important mattes diseased in
saC. le wohli assure the EcTourable Gurdentan thin

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