Star.
London, England, 1821-05-11 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

The order of the day being read for the attend-
ance of Thomas Arruy:sinith, William Shackell, and
Henry Fox Cooper,
Mr. BENNETT moved, That Thomas Arrow-
smith be now called in. After a short time be ap-
peared at the bar.
The SPEAKER.—What is your name P—Thomas
Arrowsmith.

Emntined by Mr. G. BENNF.rF.--Are you proprietor of
the paper called .blsn Bull P—l am not now.
How long have you ceased to be so?—Since the 10th of Fe-
bruary.
To whom did you give up the proprietorship?—To Mr. IL T.
Weaver.
For what consideration ?—For none.
Was there any arrangement, verbal or written, between you,
by which you were to share in the profits?—None.
Do you receive any part of the profits?—No, not any.
Are there any payments made tayou of the weekly proceeds
—Weekly.
Do you reside in the house situated in Johnson's-court?—\o,
I do nat.
Is not that where the printing-press is kept ?—Tes.
I las Weaver never given you an'y consideration for this pro-
perty, which you have made over to him?—No.
Is he not your journeyman?—He is not. He has been em-
ployed by me.
Do you not give him three guineas a-week for publishing this
paper 7—He does not get three guineas a-week for publishing
and printing the .TuAn Bull, but he receives something for read-
ing the proofs of works printed by us.
Is Jda* Bull one of those ?—No.
Are you in the habit of letting people set up Papers, or other
works in your shop?—lt is not our shop.
How ! is it not your property ?—We have rented that house,
and the next to it. We pay the rent of k, but receive it of Mr.
Weaver.

What have you received of him on this account ?—Nothing
as yet.
How does that happen?—l pay myself out of the proceeds of
the paper.
How do you receive them?—From Mr. Weaver. They first
come to him, and he pays them to me.
Do all the profits come to you?—No, not all. Some come
through another channel, such as adverti►ements.
Who pays the wages of the workmen and others employed on
the paper ?—Sometimes 1, sometimes Mr. Shackell, and at
other times Mr. Weaver.

Then if any one has said you paid the wages of the workmen
constantly, they must have said what is not true?-1 have not
generally paid them.
Then that assertion cannot be true?—Ccrtainly not exactly
true.

Did you employ Cooper as editor of this paper?--I did not,
my partner did.
With your consent?—Yes.
What does he get a week ?—Three guineas : he was promised
more if the publication were successful.
Has he ever yet received more?—No more yet.
Why did you give it up ?—I was not able to overlook the mat•
ter of it.

By Mr. R. S3IITIL—Was there no written agreement en-
tered into between you and Mr. Weaver at the time this paper
was given up by you?—None.
Who was to pay the difference in ease the expenses exceeded
the profits?— If the expenses exceeded the profits of the con-
cern, then I expected that we were to bear the loss. If the re-
ceipts exceeded the expenditure, then the surplus was to be Mr.
Weaver's !—(.4 laugAfrons the pposition Benches).
IA reply to a question put to him by Lord NUGENT, he
said there was no oral or written engagement as to the sum to be
paid for the paper. Weaver was the sole proirietor of it ;he
and his partner bad no idea the sale of it would have become so
extensive ; they thought there would perhaps have been a loss on
the undertaking ; when they gave it up to Mr. Weaver, there
was more than one prosecution pending against John Bah it
was very shortly after this they gave up the conduct of this
paper to Mr. Weaver; it was more than three days after, or
perhaps a week.
In reply to Mr. R. SMITH, who asked how they could take
on themselves such a thing as to start a paper where they should
have all the loss if it failed, and Mr. Weaver the gain if it suc-
ceeded ? he said, they were content to run that-risk.
In reply to Mr. W. WYNN.—Since Mr. Weaver was the
proprietor, they had paid over or given in no account of the
profits; in the oral agreement no mention bad been made of a
power reserved to themselves to drop the publication whenever
they found it advisable ; the oral agreement •was about the 10th
February; be was certain it was more than two months ago.
In reply to Mr. SMlTH.—Weaver was in his employment
until this agreement took place; when Cooper became editor,
he examined and collated the copy of the paper • he (the witness)
bad not seen the paragraph alluded to concerning Mr. Bennett,
until he read it in the paper of Sunday last; they did not keep
the manuscripts of articles inserted; it was not the practice in
their office, in other offices it might be different, but he did not
know that.

In reply to Lord NUGRNT.—When Weaver saw him et
ten o'clock yesterday morning thought he was in conversation
with ➢lr. Cooper; not satished whether it was Mr. Cooper or
another perssn.
In reply to Sir R. FERGUSON.—First heard that Mr.
Weaver was to attend this House, yesterday at tea o'clock, and
bad tberrno other conversation with him on the subject.
The witness was ordered to withdraw, but was recalled by
Sir IL Ferguson, to answer whether be had heard any part of the
examination of Mr, W yesterday in that House?—Noce.
Had he held any conversation with him since on the subject?
Certainly, it was natural to suppose he would talk to him and
his partner on the subject, on his return to the office.
He was then ordered to kave the bar, but to remain within
the precincts of the House.

r Mr. BENNETT now moved that 07lliam %ad/
berr—Are you the proprietor or
the
e broughts.adnin;d_ Ibt
you t
‘tnihor ew.
Bb.
sa r

How
had the hlononouhra of g ve yseeinou cto be so?—About a week 1r,,„
eased
you—Vie:u gh).
Why did you give it up? I must confess, I was spine eusw
of the consequences of a prosecotion.
Did you receive a compensation for its surrender ?—No,
not ask any.
Is Mr. Weaver to make you a compensation hereafter, gek
paper is not hereafter profitable?—Nu.
Then did you surrender your property without snaking
e
stipulation that you should receive any remuneration ? I
,r,e
What situation did he hold in your service before he •
the assignment of this property or newspaper.-lie was overseet
What did you pay him ?—Two pounds a week. we pay him
now three guineas for superintending the paper.
What ! the Abe He pays himself out of the postai?
—He does. Then to whom is the residue of the profits gives?
He will get the rest when the accounts are settled. lie gets
what is necessary for his present use.
If all is his, why is he not allowed to enjoy it ?—lle gets wkt
he wants, which is three guineas.
How do you know he gets it?—Because I see it paid, or I
And he takes it out of the monies paid.
Into whose hands are the profits or monies paid?-Sometimes
into my hands; sometimes into Mr. Arrowsmith's ; sometime,
into Mr. Weaver's; but it is all in trust for Mr. Weaver.
Who keeps the money ?—Mr. Arrerwsruith or myself; sksl
the account book.
Who is in
_possession do you say of that book?—There are
two books ; I keep one.
Who keeps the account of June fluff P—There are two ;
is an account of receipts, the other of the expenses, such a,
stamps, paper,
Is the account kept by debtor and creditor ?—No ; only a p'.42
account of motley received, and money expcnded. No debts;
or creditor.

Do you see the manuscripts before they are printed or 9et so
have seen them sometimes.

Did you see that in the .b,:n 80, of Sunday last ?—r
not know ; the manuscript goes to 31r. Cooper, and then to II
compositors.

ao you examine the manuscripts sent to he printed'-1
not see this paragraph until it 49pear.d i i prim.
You appointed Cooper editor e—Yes, I did ;
guineas a week ; there is no other editor; and :•e alone exAnau
these paragraphs, and reads the paper afterward:, ktvre ;:a
completed.
_ _

ls he responsible to you for such insertions?—\o; to lw
Weaver.

Ilow did he and Weaver bemme connected ?--I tramftmf
the paper to Weaver, and with the paper Mr. Cooper's larva.,
In your time of being proprietor, was Cooper rewonsilikfr
the conduct of the paper Ita-1 was the person respousible at do
Stamp Office.
You say, that sometimes Arrewsmith, sometimes yes or
Weaver paid the expenses: was there then a common Inuit
the profits out of which these charges were paid by 02, 7
other'—No.

How did you keep the accounts?—By balancing the eiptr,v,
against the receipts; the balance was to be paid over.
Mr. It. SMITII.—If there were a loss on the paper,
whom would it fall?—Weaver would sustain the loss.

You beard from Arrowemith also that thin wac the tarsi
the agreement?—Yew

If the balance were against the paper, then the deficierei va
'to be paid by Weaver ?—Yes--(Laughter).
In reply to a question from Sir JOHN BOUGH F.Y, he said..
, I consider Weaver bad a right to do with it as he wished. I ay.
self, if I may be allowed the expression, consider myself to
father of the paper!—(Loud taus/deep
Lord NL'GENT.—Do you now bear part of the expos
and outgoings of the paper ?—Yes, out of Weaver's money.
pay the expenses weekly.
Does Weaver ever pay them ?—Not generally; he has
Cooper more than once or

Sir R. FERG CSON.—Has Weaver been employed in tar
service in any other way than in that of the printing of Jan
Buil don t employ him on the JoL.t Ball. I have employed
him for other business.

Whilst proprietor yourself, Weaver was in yr:users:ex ease
time ?—Yes, he was.

Since Weaver has been proprietor of the Joh,t Nil, has be not
been employed by you in other business ?—Yez, as crasser.
Are any of the journeymen employed in your printing-dim
also employed on any other paper or other business ?—ies, at the
end of the week we lend them to Mi. Weaver to prim his pacer.
Does Weaver pay them anything I—Yes, he pays them their
wages at so much per hour.
Has Weaver ever paid you anything on that account?-Nrox
In reply to Lord N UG EN T.—Mr. Weaver never paid thew
anything for the loan of these journeymen : they were pail
by time.
By Sir TM. DE CRESPI GNY.—Are you agent or trims
to Weaver?—l am merely a friend. I presume it is not in ID'
common thing for one friend to take care of another, or to take
care of his money.
Did you take care of his money before the transfer took yho
of Jars Bull to him ?—We paid him a certain sum of town
weekly ; when the transfer was made, he was to receive the
guineas as a present. provision fur his necessary• and immeshes
expenses per week ; he was to have the remainder of the poi:,
if any there were.

Why not take care of his money beforel—He was able tot*
care of his own, I suppose.
The SPEAKER advised the examinant to adopt a se
deliberate mode of reply, for his own sake; it would also an
the time of the House—(Hear).
You never used, then, to take care of Weaver's money befoul
Certainly not.
Was there no security required of Weaver ?-lle sever
asked for security.
Did you ever give to Weaver any security for the sccsel
so received ?—No.

What were the journeymen you speak of employed iseirl
during the first part of the week ?—They were eroploysi
what is called distributing, or, in other words, preparkg to
the next publication.
Mr. Shackell was then ordered to withdraw to the lobby
the House.—Mr. Shackell having withdrawn,

Mr. BENNETT moved that Mr. Cooper be ald
to the bar.

Haan:lined by Mr. Baxxtrn—What is your name?—finl
Fox Cover.
Are you editor of the paper called the JAR Bull I—l Eau
How long have you been editor of that paper?—Sins It
was established.

Are you the sole editor of it?—l am.
Are all the papers sent for insertion in that paper Oahe
your hands? They are all immediately under my inspects
Was the article ph hold in your hand submitted to yea bile
insertion ?—The first part of the article was inserted is it
Courier, the observations were written by myself. Under ee
ing, however, that the facts from which the observations sie
are not true, I regret that the article was inserted; and
lta
sorry that any observations were made infringing on the 61r.
ties of this House. I heard on Saturday that the facts net
true, and I gave currency to the rumours.
From whom did you learn these rumours?—General nogg.
Cau you name one from whom you heard them'— re
moor wet general.
What do you mean by general rumour P—l heard it nee'
timed at the office by Mr. Shackell and Mr. Arrowsmith ne
report was generally current.
Did you hear the rumour any where but at the efhte I-4w"
not out of the office the whole of Saturday.
In the paragraph alluded to, it is said, We are tectittat.
state." Who requested you to state ?—No one.
Then that part of the paragraph is not true?—lt is oce.
Are you in the habit of inserting such paragraphs to„,,t11!
thority of. Mr. Shackell and Mr. Arrowsmith
they tell me of some circumstances that occur, and I P'
them.
Did they see the paragraph before it was published ?"1"
did not.
Did they know it was going to the printer -They didars
Who do you consider as the person accountable for year w
duct? Who Is your master ?—Mr. Weaver.
Who named you to your present situation?—Mr. Want
Mr. Arrowsmith.
HaWhvoe
pyaoyus
been paid sometimes by Mr. Weaver.
hand-writing t—The greater part of it.
anythingyou?—Mtor. SdohawckithellranecedivAiring. the
An inowcmsnelsith?-:
By Sir R. FERG USON.—Was the manuscript in }'ear
Have you got the manuscript ?—1 hi% c not•

» ~ t

ifir -

.~~

!bit*
!Live

Do you know where It 1.4?—L10 not : an the paragraphs .a
-e
iven to the compositors; I cannot say what is done with them
fter •' I believe they are destroyed.
Do you know whether this has been destroyed I—T do not
I looked for it, but could not find it.
Are an such paragraphs as this destroyed ?—I don't know that
they are.
To whom did you deliver the paragraph ?—To the printer.
What is his name ?—lilakie.
Were you in the House yesterday when Mr. Weaver was ex-
antinedl—l was not.
Where were you when you were ordered to attend at the Bar
of this House ?—I cannot say exactly ; I was in the city at half
past eight, and at home after.
Did Mr. Weaver.tell you that you were ordered to attend this
house?—He did not.
When did you know you were ordered to attend ?—Yesterday.
What time yesterday ?—ln the afternoon.
After be was examined, or before ?—After.
Did you see him after he was examined yesterday ?—I did not.
Have you seen him this morning ?—I have certainly.
You said that if you knew the facts•contained in the paragraph
lobe untrue, you would not have inserted them?—.Certainly.
Why then state the first part which appeared in the Courier,
we ate requested to state," when you knew it to be untrue?—
It is the custom in newspapers to introduce a paragraph by say-
tog, we are requested to state so and so; it is quite common.
Did you tell Mr. Shackell or Mr. Arrowsmith that you would
avow yourself to be the author of this paragraph?-4
When ?—To-day.
At what hour?—l cannot tell exactly.
Did they ever apply to you to inquire who the author was?—
Ttey did.
By Lord NUGENT.—The witness stated that the last part
of the paragraph was in his own hand-writing. In whose hand-
writing was the first part ?—ltt my own.
Then the whole was in your hand-writing ?—No ; part was
an extract from the Courier.
In whose band-writing was the extract ?—it was not in manu-
script; it was a printed copy from the Courier.
%Ya there any person present when you communicated your
intention to Mr. Shackell and 3lr. Arrowsmith of avowing your-
self the author of this paragraph?—There was nut.
Mr. Weaver, the proprietor, was not present ?-lle was not.
When there is any doubt as to the insertion of a paragraph, to
whom do you refer I—The whole literiry part of the paper rests
with me.
Then you consulted no one on the insertion of this para-
graph ? No.
Does Alr. Weaver discharge the same duties on the paper
now as he did in the month of February ?—He does.
Did you ever see Mr. Weaver at his own house ?—I did not.
Did you ever receive any note or written communication from '
him ?-1 did not.
Did you ever tell him where you lived ?—Never.
By Dr. PIIILLI 0111:—When had you first any comma-
nicatton with Mr. Weaver before • his examination on the sub-
ject of this paragraph ?—(We could not hear the answer).
The witness was ordered to withdraw, but not to j
depart the House.
Mr. BENNE'rf said the House had now closed
examinations which it had been his business to call
for, and he could assure them that none regretted so
deeply as he did the necessity imposed upon the
House of going through such an inquiry—(Hear).—
But he had thought it a duty which every one owed
to himself, and, above all, a duty which every Mem-
ber of that House owed to himself and to the House,
to remove so foul a calumny—(ll,ear).—The pro-
prietor, printer, publisher, and editor of the paper
were now before them. The editor avowed himself
the author.of the paragraph be complained of. He
would not travel through the falsehoods and perjury '
,—for perjury it was by the oath given in the Stamp '
Office—he would not travel through the falsehoods
before them. It was evident that these persons were
mere creatures of straw !—(Loud and repealed cheers).
He would not comment upon their disgraceful occu-
pation, or say anything of die-character of the paper
—its malice—if malice could be talked of in refer-
ence to a paper—its malice was known to all—
(Chcers).—lt was a paper which only the basest, the
meanest, and the lowest of mankind could counte-
nanpe— (Loud cheering).—Who the persons were
who countenanced it he cared not; but be they who
they might, they were the lowest and basest of man-
kind—tCheers).—He spoke not of those who catered
idle rumours, but of those who gave it substantial
support, by giving patronage to such an infamous
vehicle of malicious slander—(Cheers).—When men
or women were maligned, there were persons who
found pleasure in reading the scandal—they read,
from idle curiosity, what was malignant and false.—
He alluded not to them, contemptible as was their
curiosity ; but he alluded to those who gave every
countenance in the nature of approbation to false-
hoods so wantonly malignant—(Hear, hear).—The
mere printers were nothing. His object in bringing
the subject before the House was, first, to clear what
he trusted was not necessary—( Hear)—to clear his
own character to the world ; next, to extract a thing
be had hardly expected to be able to effect—to
extract from the wretches who propagated the vile
slander, the persons who had supplied the funds for
giving countenance to such a publication—( Hear).
He had failed. He did not say that he was sorry ;
for he would much sooner believe that the person
who said so was the writer, than that any person of
a higher class could have given countenance to such
a publication—(Loud cheers). He well knew that
by the rules and practice of the House a breach of
privilege of less malignity than this warranted a
motion for committing to Newgate. Upon cases of
that kind generally which had come before the
House, he had had but one opinion. He had often
given his opinion upon such questions ; and he would
not now take a course contrary to the opinion he had
given in other cases. He would not take for himself
what he had disapproved of in others. He knew that
what was really a contempt of that House ought to
be severely punished; but he was constrained to con-
sider real obstruction as the only offence which the
House ought to visit with punishment ; but a con-
structive contempt, which this was, he could not
view in that light. He could not help entertaining
the opinion he did entertain—having upon the sub-
ject an opinion of the heart perhaps rather than of
the judgment—he could not help thinking that these
people ought to have an opportunity of stating their
case before a Jury of their country--.-(Hear)—and
that they should have an opportunity of preparing
themselves for making out a case to a Jury. He
c°„ uld only move that the House order the Attorney-
ueneral to prosecute all the persons examined at the
bar On this subct.
The SPEAKER, after a pause, read the motion
thus :—.That the Attorney-General be directed by the
House to prosecute Henry Fox Cooper, William
Shackell, Thomas Arrowsmith, and Robert Thomas
weaver, for: false and scandalous libel on the Ho,
riourable H. G. Bennett, a Member of this House,
published in the John Bull newspaper.
Tile Marquis of LONDONDERRY was anxious
that the House should wait another day before it
came to a decision upon what it ought to do with a
Yiestion like the present. Ile was quite sure that-the
Honourable Member would be the last to wish the

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