Star.
London, England, 1829-04-09 00:00:00

• MIMI itAr: .APHili NM

- . .•
that these words should be ilitrodueed sa a peolitiOglarl
liteasod the. ygoeuils upon .which he proposed them,
he.. wished particularly to draw• the• attestitin:ef- the,
Noide.Dake at the head of his Majesty's:C(o*N_ Wr
which were these—ln the oath to be token4bY...*Ontaa:
Catholics were the words—u And Ido solentulp swear
that I never will exercise any privilege to which. lASI
or .may be entitled to disturb or weaken the Protestant
relights or Protestant government in this liitfgdasi~ :.•
He did not know if the N.able Duke was noralget she
Oath, *hich Roman Catholic Bishops and, PriestaAffile
Obliged t.i swim to the Pope, but to hint it. eppeared so
completely contrary to the oath tot admitting;Catholici
ii it t Pill figment, that he could
.nokevoicirepeating. one
particular passage in it—H:Jura, honores,,privilegta,.et
auctoritent sancta Bonsai. occlesite, Domini roam
Pap* et succenorom predictoruns coiner**, dello.
dere, augere, et prontotiere. curable Now, b.-*oild
say that any person, if, be were admitted into Pattie.
meat, would be iocapable of taking, that oath who had
previously taken the oath to which itobed just adsartett,
and therefore be should propose the insatiate of-thoet
words as a provisionary clanse. if. any &Ida •14141/
was desirous of looking at the oath be could show at
to him.
The Earl of ROSSLYN objected to the introduction
of the words proposed by tbo•Noble Lord, .10r-which
he could. see no reason whatever. - It the lioble.Lood
thought proper to read one part of the oath takenilsy
Roman Catholic. Bishops be thought he ought to have
gone on and read the whole. fie (Lord lionlyn). dish
not known, the precise Lstin.vrotdis bat Ite•beliegod,the
import of the words sworn to by all Eighth Ronson
C.stbolic Bishops was, that they mold .not .laterfece
with .any attempt to exclude or diminish. the laerfel
right,of the King of Great Britain, or infringe any-ni
Abe tetabli hed lases.of the realm. ,Now, if theytwoh
an oath to this effect, he did not apprehend that any
danger could result to the Constitution, or that-the au.
thority of the King .vra. likely to be injured. •
Lord KENNON still contended that the oaths were
quite incompatible with.each tither: • He offered the!
Noble Earl the oath, an estractfroon which he had just
road. If Noble Lords were otiopiniou that these oaths
were incompatible -they ought tcitconsont 10 the in-
troduction of the words- he had proposed. He coo..
sidered them to be quite incompstible, and, therefore,
he thought it his dolt to move fur the insertion of the.
clan*.

Lord ELLENBORO.U.GH thought, if the Noble
Lord would rake the babble to refer •tb the seldom*
damned by Di. Doyle borate the House of Lord, ia:
10125. be would find that ao addition was made to that•
oath by Eqglish Romeo Catholic Bishops. 'which would'
show the Nikle Lord that be was mistakes its hie up•
preheosious. The Noble Earl having read an extract
from the oath. •

Loud ICENiOW•asid that which had been stated by'
the Noble Lord was not-at all to tbe•plprposed •He
(Lord Keay°, ) stated that thole two oaths were qi alto
iocompatible the oaf with the otheep.and he could eat
see how a person could take the one who hatrevlowsly
takco the other. •

Earl BATHURST said the .oaths were eithev soap
patible or incompatible. If they were compatible there
was as end to the argument of the Nobtabled (Kenyon);
and if they were incompatible then a Roman Catholic
Bishop seas as completely excluded froths seat in the
Haute after the Bill -had passed as if it had never passed.
• Lord KENYON said be would not -devil the Hooey ea she
sawadnioni at present; but ae a 'stew of prindplii ha Amid deem
Ella duty to bring the question again Wore abs Home urn the
brines' up of the report.
Tha amendment was then negatived radioed a divishis, and the
tlaussagreed to.
the reading of the asst clime, empetwaring Roman Csholia
Peers toll, elected, and also to vote for Maim Cathollas to sit as
represewative Peers for !rased and ticatlaid,
The Earl of VERULAM stated that be had a new
clause to propose to prevent any future Prime Minister
from ieundating the Hoese with Roman Catholic Peers.
To guard against such an'event he begged leave to pro.
pose le clause similar 'to that which was to be found in
the Act of Union, and by which the King was prevented
from cseating any new Peer fur Ireland bald tbtee
Peerages were extinct.
Tb. Rad of ROSSIeTtt-tbouglit is better that an the clauses
el the t I IL should he yeast of betas say new clauses were pro-
posed.
A dmidtary cenvoriation thin arose as to the pramioty of petting
the'questkat on the proposed clause at this partkular stage of the
proceedings.
The 'Noble CHAIRMAN thee
Tipt the question on the clause
°Art.by the Rat! of Virulent. • Th purport of the clams was,
ie lilsiassy should net hay she power of treating a new
Raman Catholic Peerage until direr& the Peerages possessed by
Roman Cathodic Peen became estiest."
' Lcird.REDERDALE thought. it was impossible for
the* LOrdsbips to adopt the clause stow proposed. A
Peerage, Ail', now he, held. by a Protestant, and the
mg .bplder might be.a Rowan. Catholic, as in the case
tif.the late Duka cif, &Welk. and the present. Religion
waexat hereditat y ap well as-the Peerage, and therefore
battened it would he impossible to. recognise the. prin.
ciplp tantaioed in the. clause proposed- by the. Noble
Earl (Verulans).
The Duke.of WALLINGTON. thought that, if the,
Noble Earl's clause was adopted, it would establish a
new, Catholic question spoil new •principles. The pro-'
position•went to abridge,bia blajestra prerogative apace
ogle of du most osllllolpol enclosed'. of • tosegirunioe •
behest ere! leazdfof,- °googly, that ikAtinistee, of the
Ciown• Mien inundate that House with Romeo Cs.
thalic.Peets, In hip opiaiou xiae observation of the No.
We and..Leattied- Lord (Iledevisle),; that -religion was
, not, hned Ugh erm pcsfemly conclablee.ca the question.
The Marquks of:LONDONDERRY did sot consider
die.clausean tbs. Act of Union-retorted -se by the Noble
Eprl (Veittberaht; xlwanctut desirable in that Act.. It
41444)xe114 41e4donr.-10, veil great fiacenrenience, and
when it was now'proposed to alter the system,. it should
be Joao Jo 04 10 give *a Jade diaratiatactioa -as possible.
Ile agreed J with, the .Noble Dike (Webing!ast) 'that if
the claose.vraf added to lbe.Bille per. CalliZtlic- goof-
dim ..40114..ban P.oolngue'id *TM .reir.; and he be-
liend Ahme Pats . isoLaap . Noble . Lord. who • would • oot
coaeur•wisbabins- in flunkies, that if the question wa.
ks be settled as all it should be settled finatty. He en
treated the .Noble .Earl‘ therefore, to withdraw the
clear, which -tould produce no satisfactory effect.
I The Earl of VERIILAM said he was not much in
love witb.the clause sow 'sloppiest. any more than with
ihe general principles of the UM. and if it was solid-
ated drat ie. would produce any bad consequences, be
ad so objection to withdrww is. • • . .
i Tie.elooe worth', withdrawn; ugh dbrimisba %nisi beau
0; AR spa ?Flail al 0100 t. • • • . ' t , ' "
Loyd kA lOWA* begged m ogre a few observe-

rinse 04 this sohjart, as it eeinarded.thollopmernatiOel
Pager of Soodaad and tbe:Aet of-Union. It urassaid
thet.the snarl/mono in itlie.Act of.Ahli.4 was a .tern..
votary arrangemett.eapahle of being altered; aotthis
doctrinaires aasumed in coosequenecot the words mot•
tabled in the VVJ title, is which* mils vested that
" wedge shoelakeonainee so be token *mill the
United Parliament .made further porridges taken. entity
Now, °he could not mimeos in the interpretation khe
tof .Uniots givea .by those-who argued akin sheaath.
might .boo done .away. with, andt.Rowsint Urkbehei- ed.
mined to seat. in FatlfiSMlNltti merely ow the streeptbel
dio -words he had oilseed. In . the next mite* of itie
Act- of Union there was a complete incorporators of the
atv oLlikutlarid, preveatieg Catholics frototheldlitg. ea/
°Aces in that-cooties y. Ttfis law-wee contained in an
Act of che.Scotels. Per Samna called*. CI aintsifiltiatttl
and that Act. was inclededs.e• monism in, tae-Att
Woo. Ap_Oreat Britain it-was, to ,be observed tha
.1Q01313 Catholics were cal j pnweated frame rahisitthele
tests. in tira.Logialetore . aadlsolskossertain ofseeS,44
as milk; but iwiliotioud they-were eschadalithr stain*
law; arid whin bc.cootended eras. that thadhlri artiart
comely empoiered Barliansent to alter. she 'boded ez.i
cluaion by mbstitutiegany caber oath, but otsittaalrei
one of the fandamantal articles of the,Usioo; br .ena-
Wino Eamon Catholics toesit.in.Parliaosenr. Thnsera
title of the Act of ,Uoion .wap also confiraned.bra4sh..
*serpent Act for the regulation of the election of.Scotth
Peers. The), dila and Learned Lord . on' theWordsack
in trying questing, appeared daubtfid -whether 4*
Dot ibis- mature wasa.violatiosi of.the An of Union
boi..al all eventsohe conceived.that, on the.piewel ne..!
cesiity, the Act of Union ought to be thrown over-
board. In his (Lout Fasehane.),opinion, this-measure
was a violation of the Act of Union. and yield only be'
raved on the ground of necessity.; and he must be el.:
lowed to say that, in his.opinian, the necessity had not!
been made out.
The Earl of ROSEBERRY contended .that. this MI6:
sore was not a violation of the Act of Union.oith Scot.
land in sot of its clones. .hloch hid been said already.
QA the subject.; but he thought there wzre one or taw
coosiderations•which had not been sulficiently brooghtl
to their Lordships' attention. He thought it was tune:
impossible thatihe Act of the Scotch Parliament al.'
hided to by chalMoble Lord who bad jest spoken.eould,
have been intended to be held as a schematise part
the Act of Union far. ever. That • particular claim
could never have been to cialiane in force perpe wally,
when it was 31411111 in a preceding. clause that those
clauses should remain in force unta the United Pad's-
Mat " aide further provisions therein." When the
fundamental prineiples of the Act of Union were ram
dared capable of change, it was quit: impossible that
the minor principles should have been rendered perpe-
tual. That this measure was not a breach of the Act
of Upton in any of its essential pans, was solLiarsll
proved by the condole( of the people of Sc ;dead thaw
selves, and by that of their Representatives. Only Sae
eat of feetrave •• Members of the other, House repre-
senting Scotland had voted against the Bill. and in that
House only friar of the sixteen Scotch Peers bad voted
egoimMit. Oat of thirty-five -Scotch Peers Minn
Peerages in Scotland, and also being Peers Of England.
thirty had voted for the Bill. and only 6:e against it ;
and of nineteen English Patti who had property is
Scotland,• bat were not Scotch Peen, all had voted in
favour et the Bill. A large meeting had been held in
Edinbuigh, too, when a Petition was agreed to in fa-
vour of the measure, and at that meeting persons met
who had newer agreed on any political question before.
The Represoutatives of Scotland and the inhabitant's/
that country .were therefore favourable to the measure.
and it was not at all likely that they should be so. if
they_ coosidered that the Bill was a violation of the Act
of lion, or that it trenched upon CIO privileges of
their country.
Lord PLUME/ITT braid so resist their Loritiolpo that the
ebosoVator easolderatioa h A sothiog to &with the Act of Union,
and tar they were sow arguing ow a abject which appliotrather
to asetther doom

Lord iiEXLEY admitted that, when the two hide-
pendent Legislatures of England and Scotland became
united. a supreme power was lodge& is them to alter
the faking laws, or any of the articles of Union, in
case of necessity. Net a single argument. however, -in
Isis opinion, had been urged to proves the necessity. or
even the expediency of &violation of the Act of Union.
By violating thiu.solemaAet in this case, too.a precedent
would.be open for a violation of the Irish Act vi Union.
The rights of the Irish. Church, which .be and many
others considered woe greatly endangered by the gene-
ral measure, were solemnly recognised in the Irish Act
of Union ; and when they dealt so lightly with articles
of the Act of Union witlrficotl kola sotto be sup-
posed that they should. be much-moss delicate with '
specs to the• kisbAct el Union, which might be altered
upon any allegesigroend of necessity.. It was said.that
a great 'majority of the Scotch Peers mere favourable to
the-epeaseie, and :smelted to this siotsfois of the Union.
%opts as mien on the part of the Itepretentatires of
qemtland did not satisfy him as. to the propriety of the
tiMispres-and. men if the opinioo of the people of Scot-
litukwaa.in /erosive( the violation, it wooliftnot alter
tits question ; for-its such 'lease it was orces.ar yto look
fetcher than to the popular voice. Besides, it was by
nu means. to .be isfersed that. biteisenetheScoseh lie-
piesestatives voted for the-general niesserei they ars
freved.of shit vielation'of the Act of Union. In con-
clusion, he m;ght observe that this panache question
was of more importance than their Lordships seemed
to consider. The general willentrewaS as alteration of
the-general .priseiples of the Vonstitution ; and to this
was added an infractioael the solemn treaty eructed
into with an independeutLegislatuae.
Viscount MELVILLE thought that their Lordships
had better have 'taken some other opportunity foe dis-
cussing the question as regarded Scotlind. The whole
question DOW was as to the right.of llamas Catholics to
thetegislature? He• was surpriled' his Noble
Friend who had just sat-down should attach such hats-
portant* to this measure as it reset del Scotland. He
admitted it might. be,of impost:meet° consider whether
they should admit Roman Catholic Members. to sit for
Fatigland•iled Ireland;-but of to, ti-ave Members who
were'. returned' for Scotland, their Lordships would
admit that there could not be much danger in maiting
Roman. Catholics eligible when he sold then 'there was
only one Catholic. PM.' who COlll.l vote for .11 repreien-
tatimmad he believed about ten of a down heeholders.-
It.wis certainly a violation of the Accol Usioa.to admit
one bunritoChish Isembets in 'addition Mau the united'
nsOiluellmi.husikhres done for the•georrat• good'
,be empire. It there was any general feeling amongst

u3l• Szvarnisicr..

the Stottbthistilitilk 1100 Crete iivadled; Wit As-
o! Union said 'that 'the excleiinn of Remain Catholics
'formed i part bf thlit Act, which *4 in:iolite
could hot be tepeelici, even, in a/credence with
aides hi 'the people. and for the /coeval good; their
Lordship. 'ankh' tie vtritrig io incredhig Scotland"'
•thelmesenC NI Bat his -opiaioo. wit, that the,
j.,s, it y of the i hid ligent peolsleof Scathed *ere iq fah
tot the Bill, aid that; thotigh a riuMber PetitiOne
been ovesrenid, vilified • by persons yeti respectable
thriiilineof life; he -betievJJ that, from their rank
encletyi it ttio n likely that nee ors of I thalami
feed the Act of Union. Olfieliiheieottipleined of
.sriotated. hr proof of this ispidioa 'be begged to
their ibeitdvhipt to the "deterieinatiOn wilieh the
4eatnedmirkpirstrite47 of idea. iss'lkodied had
ces--.lte Meant- the ?fishy tee es of'Scottats-thear '
' or- *boil laid &elated' that' they would noe.sige ;
'lion-agate* this Bill ;'theie Gentle/nen Certainly
twit histologist ro'thic determined* if they did not fp
pett to bd Mai oaf hi Melt noels -ilia B 7 the people
in genera. He thought it Would be absurd and p
'pederast' for theii Lhrdshipi to descend to a minim
•separate legidatiori for Seorland *hen the people'
couotry did' nor ell upon them to do so.
The Rol cif ELDON ilothely agreed Pith the
L'otd that it was entipetest for. the United Parham:toot
arasakeinty alterations in the lases established by the
Act of Unica with Scotland tbat might be considered
neceerary'for- chef general pod. The Act of Union with
-Ireland ulnae pear way tarecognize *bat tight, bet
'he could' not awe With-the Noble Lord that the people
ef Scotland were in favour of this measure being ea..
tended to thatenantry. On the contrary, be thought
the people of Scotland would be diaatisfsed if this
measure were carried. If their Lordships would refer
.to the Bill of Rights of Scotland. which ought to be as
'mach respected as the Bill Uf Rights for England. they
'wrioutd-seafrom WISE no Papist could sit in the Paslia-
sent of that country, and though the Act of Unite' did
.netinettioa that no Pao4 Should sit. yet the fifth and
sixth °Matra Anne, which Wife aiw improvement ci
the Act -otrUalls, dekla4d that all those Acts %inch
she paised'bifole the Act of Unica should have the
use force and effect as the Act itself. and, coosequenny, .
ho Papist could -elm or be elected in Scotland. lie did
not referio any oaths by wihicb Nimes) Cartbelicsinight
te-rsehrand, but ma* to thucharicthy of those
,Tho
wire vidd to be estleded. He thought, if cite feeling
of the people of Scotland was to be jedgerkby.the votes
of the Scotch Members, their Lordships aiOuld not look
to the votes =of this yea? alone, bat look a little back to
the vetei tor the `last or three leers.
Lord flittilAVEN said, that the let at Wen with atetland -
did bat einteln bole chutes landed to by the Noble Lard.
The Vat! of ELDON es What be bad said was, that
the &gads Parliament adepthd these Acts which had bees
previensly joined ly the lkeish Patitansest.
Lord PLVNt thought the law was quite clear
on thesubject.. There was an Act pasted by the Par-
liament of Scotland establishing. the Church of Stet-
land.-and an Act paste.) by the Parliament of England
establishing the, Church of E 'gland. They *ere de-
clared by the Act 4 f Union to be fundamental and On•
alterable lawil-; and they. in fact. funned Alie Act of
Union—they made the Act of Union complete. And,
after this let had been complete, an Act was passed to
regulate election.; which said that those previ.as Acta
referred to b the Noble and Learned Lord geese to be
of the tame force add value as tie Act of Elution itself;
but they weld net declared to be fundamental or un-
alterable laws. No doubt the Act declared that Papists
Could aotelect or be elected; bet this Act only referred
to members al estates, and made is reference to.repre-
sentatiee Peer's.' He was 'oily the Noble and Learned
Lord seethed ta differ with him on this subject ; but he
wootd beg of Ines loOk 'carefully into the Act of
Unfit, and he *hihire he would agree with him.
The Earl of 'MOON said he would comply with
the Noble Lord's. liqihes and fool into the Act; bet, as
he had ahead/ aderiitted the coMpetency of the united
Parliament' to repeat the lass alluded to, he could have
no purpose its doing so but in deference to the sidles
of the Noble Lord, and to satibh those Mho had en.
timed petitions to his hands, and who were of opinion
that the Act of Union would be violated by this repeal.
Lord DUNCAN did not rise to offer any opinion on
the Act of Union, but merely to repeat what bad been
said' by his Noble Relative (Lord Melville), that tie
general feeling of Scotland. was in favour of this sea*
sure. He knew that many petitions bid been presented
against it; but When be knew the means which had
been taken to procure signatuor, and the opinion which
bad been spread that his Majesty, Ministers intended
establishing Popery in the country. he was surprised
that in so Protestant a city as Edinburgh, instead rf
17;000, that there were not forty thousand signature,
to the petition refesred tn. He knew, however, that
since the speech of Dr. Chalmers many, even of those
who had signed that petition. bad charged their minds.
The Sul eV 'HA DDINGTON ssiteatted the original dense. .
The clanar, and the liar that followed, peeekl withost aale44

Oaths thoesohnitalarCatholies to Perliament wad elleeti`of
Slate, escesnitta•the awes of Lord Chsaweifor of )Mead, Lordcheocelleref Inlaid; and Lord Lieutenant of Inked,
Lord KENYON thonght.that the Ace of First M.
sister in tbeCabiutt, and other impatient AC011,1004
be among the' enacted ofEcei. He should *therefore
acme, as an Amendment, that before the words Lord
High Chancellor of England, there be inserted the fol.
lowing words t I •
a The First Lid tailaft Slifeetre treageri, the Land Praha*
of the Coen& the-Lowl'Frier Seel, the Mutat et the On/Mae,
aad the Fine Lod Oahe Adadrake, or Lea Hieb Adiairak"
Lord HOLLAND-thought the Nio, Loaf mistalt
the p/inciplo of the exception in•the Clause. The °Miceli
enumerated in the clause fleas which ROOM Catholict
wire cis luded tad -not been selected on accoust of 'belt
' political importance, but on acertact of the palatial
nature of tbek faaetimuk Those appointments were
not merely political. but partook in souse degree of the
exercise of the Yin!. Supremacy in ecelesiastscal affairs.
For instance, the Lord High Chancellor posses•rdi as
annexed to his office, the right' of distributing Chealf
patronage of a cethafe • take, and that -"ahem ben
obliged to.tiko Use King... pleasure on the matter. Was
it Dot so P—(to the Lard Chancellor). •
The LORD CHANCELLOR mawiteaL
Lisrd HOLLAND—With a view, than, to Mauve.
*the aaalogi of a Protestant King, it was neeemery, ip
framing the present Bill, either- to • exclude Catholics
;froaktlie office of Lord Chancellor, and other aka
ikokaiiog similar patronage, or to masilMe it' by de.
priiiatihe Lard Cbancebor of. all Cbarch•pstrunage.
'The ezeeptivo Of the 61E4 c f Lord Chancellor from the
number opened to Catholics was the most :claim plan.

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