The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-06-18 00:00:00

HIGH SHERIFFS' EXPENSES BILL.

Col. DAVIES moved the third reading of the High Sheriffs'
Expenses Bill.
After a short conversation and a division, the bill was read
a third time ; and on the question that the bill do pass,
Mr. J. JERVIS moved an amendment on the first clause,
that words be inserted to provide that the sheriff should not
be required to provide a carriage for the judges.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Mr. BARNEBY objected to the second clause, and would
take the sense of the house upon it. The sheriffs had the
power of appointing their own dependents as javelinmen,
while they might call upon the county to pay and clothe
those men, which he thought was not just.
The house divided, when there appeared—For the clause,
36 ; against it, 17 ; majority, 19. The clause was then
agreed to.

-Lord J. RUSSELL moved the omission of the latter part
of clause 4.

The clause, as amended, was then agreed to, and the bill
passed.

THE POOR-LAW COMMISSION.

Lord J. RUSSELL said, he wished to bring in two bills
with regard to the Poor-law Amendment Act. He had al-
ready stated, that, at that period of the session, it was too
late to enable him to introduce the measure which he had
originally intended to bring forward, as it was likely to create
considerable discussion both in the house and before the
select committee. All, therefore, that at present he wished
to do, was to extend the power of the poor-law commission-
ers for a year longer. He likewise wished to bring in a bill
for amending the laws for the assessment and collection of
rates for the relief of the poor, and for the collection of
county, borough, and police rates. Great inconvenience ha 4
kftlLiftlitYn'this respect which were vested in the overseers
and in the guardians. It was his object, therefore, to make
the system uniform by giving to the guardians the power of
assessing and collecting the county rates, as well as the rates
levied under the Poor-law Amendment Act.
Mr. DARBY begged to know what was to be done with
respect to the bastardy clause.
Lord J. RUSSELL.—The subject will be provided for in
the Summary Jurisdictions Bill.
Leave was then given, and both bills were brought in ;
and, being severally read a first time, were ordered to be read
a second time on Friday next.
The house then adjourned at one o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY.
The royal assent was given, by commission, to several bills,
chiefly private.
Lord MELBOURNE, in answer to inquiry from Lord
Brougham, said that he still entertained a hope that peace in
the east would be preserved ; adding that no intelligence of
any collision had been received, although affairs wore a more
menacing attitude.

The earl of HADDINGTON, a petition having been pre-
sented regarding the printing of the Bible in Scotland, asked,
after the expiration of the existing patent, what course the
government intended to pursue on this subject.
Lord MELBOURNE repeated, what was heretofore stated
in the commons by Lord. J. Russell, that arrangements
would be made to secure the purity of the printing and its
cheapness by means of a corporation constituted for that pur-
pose, consisting of the lord advocate, the moderator of the
General Assembly, two divines, and two laymen of the church
of Scotland, &c.
_ _

The Marquis of NORMANBY (in answer to Lord Brougham's
inquiry) said that the government had directed attention to
the condition of those negroes who were unable to emigrate
to places where ampler wages were to be procured ; but it was
hoped that the local assemblies would be induced to revise
their laws on the subject.

Their lordships then adjourned till Monday.
•
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY.
The," National Petition" was presented by Mr. T. Arr-
WOOD. It prayed for universal suffrage, for the ballot, for
annual Parliaments, for the remuneration of labour according
to ancient practice (what does this mean ?) and lastly, for the
abolition of property qualification for members of Parliament.
The petition required ten men to lift it. It was ordered to
be printed.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice, that the House would meet
to-morrow in order to receive the report of the Committee of
Privileges.

NATIONAL BDUCATION.
Then, at a little before 6 o'clock, after the presentation of
several petitions, the debate began upon that most important
of all subjects, the religious education of the people ; but al-
though the advocates for the Protestant church brought great
ability, earnestness and temper to the discussion, the delicate
nature of it, involving arguments more usually and appro-
priately discussed from the. pulpit than in any secular as-
sembly, prevented it from taking the sort of turn which most
quickens and stimulates a debate.
Lord STANLEY, on the question for the Speaker's leaving
the chair to go into committee of supply, moved, by way of
amendment, an address to Her Majesty, to revoke the order
in council which appointed the committee of public education.
He would meet the proposal of ministers, for a grant of mo-
ney to be applied under the authority of this last mentioned
committee, by a direct opposition. He objected to intrust a
body exclusively political with the entire control of the peo-
ple's moral and religious education. He might have moved
a censure on the plan now pending ; but if he had done that,
the plan would probably have been slipped away by ministers,
as the former plan had been a fortnight ago. As long as this
committee of council should be left, it would breed a succes-
sion of new schemes, all in violation of sound principle, and
all bearing the mark of insufficient deliberation. Lord John
Russell had declared the power to be best lodged with the
official servants of the crown, acting as a committee of the
Privy Council, and regulated by the opinion of parliament.
In this view he could not concur: be could not think that a
principle so important as that of national education ought to
vary with every change of ministry. Still greater would be
the danger if there should chance to be a government so weak
as to be seeking the support of any half-dozen people, from
any quarter, on any terms. Lord John had said that the
board of education ought to enjoy the confidence of all re-
ligious denominations. Which of them would give confidence
to this board ? Not the most numerous body, the church.
Not the body next in numbers and in zeal, the Wesleyans.
The petitions against the measure would inform the ministers
of the universal disgust in which it was held. The clergy,
the natural teachers of the people, were wholly excluded from
control. That might be well enough if education were a
matter merely temporal ; but such is not the view taken of it
by the British constitution. Let your education, by all
means, be free to all ; but let it, then, be free to the chutch
to have her own children educated in her own faith, without
the interferences proposed by you. Lord Althorp's system,
which had been hitherto adopted, of grants for the National
Schools, and grants for the British and Foreign Schools, had
answered perfectly and without complaint; why change the
sound principle of those grants, which was that the aids
should be proportioned to the local subscriptions, and guarded
by the condition that there should be funds provided to main-
tain the school when built ? Lord Stanley then stated in
detail the amount of the past grants and the numbers of the
children educated ; after which he proceeded to contrast with
the merits of that practice the demerits of the scheme which
had been just abandoned. But the abandonment, he said,
had been a nominal and sham one ; the substituted proposal
was equally objectionable, for the objection lay to the princi-
ple. They had not abandoned the substance of the plan,
but only the defence of it. They had bowed to the storm
that they might spring up again when it swept by. The
money was now to be given, not, as before, to build
schools, but to maintain them ; and this maintenance was to
be coupled with a power of inspection, and of enforcing such
improvements as the committee of privy council should from
time to time suggest. Why, this was to give to that com-
mittee, its inspectors, and agents, the whole education of the
people. The normal school was said to be abandoned. Not
so ; ministers admitted that it was only postponed till there
should be a greater concurrence of opinion among the peo-
ple, that is, till parliament should be prorogued, and ministers
set at liberty from the immediate action of public opinion.
" When you, the House of Commons," concluded the nob' e
lord, " shall have consented to yield into their hands these

large discretionary powers, it is very possible that the return
for yielding them will be to use those very powers for the in-
troduction of a scheme which to your face they would not
attempt to defend, but to which they still tenaciously cling.
I feel that I have trespassed on your attention too long. I
feel that I have very inadequately discharged the duty which
I have thought it requisite to impose upon myself. (" No,
no.") But I feel confident in the good feeling which animates
the majority of the inhabitants of this country. I feel con-
fident that the majority—that the vast majority of the reli-
gious public of all denominations have already condemned
this scheme and the counsel in which it originated ; that the
hulk of the constituencies in this country have condemned
and will still continue to condemn it; and I am not without
hope that, yielding to the manifestation of public opinion,
the majority of this house will not be found this night to
sanction a scheme which has already been condemned—un-
equivocally condemned—by the religious public, and de-
nounced by the bulk of the constituences, which takes away
from the legitimate authority of parliament the control which
it ought to exercise over the education of the people, and
vests in it an irresponsible jurisdiction—which separates the
religious education of the Established Church from the su-
pervision of her authorized ministers, for which, if impro-
perly delegated to laymen, of whatever persuasion, you will
have no ground for reproaching them (as they have already
altered their scheme once) with changing its entire form and
substance, if it so should please them, hereafter ; and which,
if you do not repudiate at once, you will have lent your hands
to the establishment, as I firmly believe, of a system which
has a direct tendency to unsettle the minds of the young
people of this country ; which will, however unjustly, induce
a general belief that, in the mind of the legislature, an equal
degree of authority is due to all versions of the Scriptures
whatever, and, that it is a matter of perfect indifference in
what creed the population of this country shall be brought
up ; and finally, which by presenting before the eyes of our
youth as of equal weight and equal authority matters which
should be so carefully distinguished as distinct versions of the
sacred writings, and essential differences in points of faith,
would speedily sap the foundations of all faith, and, what
constitutes in my estimation the strongest gr.Rund of objec-
tion to the measure, would gradually lead to general scepti-
cism, and from general scepticism to national infidelity."
(The noble lord resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.)
Lord MORPETH said, the amendment went the whole
length of separating the education of the people from the su-
perintendence of the government. The hoard would not be
irresponsible ; it was composed of removeable ministers, and
they had shown, by the abandonment of the late plan, how
fully they recognised their responsibility ; but still they did
not think fit to exclude from the benefit of a national grant a
large body of those who go to form the nation. If the state
grants a fund, the state should have inspectors of its applica-
tion. Nor could the control have been properly partaken by
churchmen. If a bishop of the church of England had been
a member of the committee, the dissenters might have ex-
pected some leading divine of their own to be associated with
him. The great object was to have more education. All
parties had therefore been lukewarm, but he hailed their re-
viving efforts, and should gladly lend his aid to the great
work of national atonement.

Lord ASHLEY said, this new plan left to the ministers all
the power which they professed to abandon in the old one.
Nay, the old one was to be revived as soon as a greater con-
currence of opinion could be obtained. No difference had
been pointed out : both were hostile to the constitution of
England, to the Established Church, and to revealed religion.
This, if done at all, should have been done, not through a
mere vote of the Commons, but through a legislative mea-
sure partaken by the House of Lords, where alone the clergy
are represented. A vote of the Commons might be better
for the party purposes of the government ; but on what
grounds of public good was it to be justified ? The effect of
the scheme would be to deprive the church of its control in
every case where the school had accepted a grant. Govern-
ment was now affirming a new principle, that every man had
a right to be trained, at the expense of the state, in the faith
wherein he was born. (Much cheering.) But why had not
this been fairly avowed ? and besides, if such a principle
were to prevail, why was it required that, in order to authorise
a grant, the parties asking it should amount to a certain
number ? (Lord John Russell, across the table, denied that
he had cheered ; while Mr. S. Rice, who sat by him, seemed
to adopt the principle which the cheer affirmed.) Far be it
from me (continued Lord Ashley) to show up the differences
which appear to exist between those two members of the
Committee of Privy Council for Education ; but this I will
show, that your plan is contrary to revealed religion—for
instance, in your distinction between special and general re-
ligion, a distinctipn which does not truly exist. As Lord
Ashley approached this theological part of the question some
of the liberals began to laugh. ' I know not," said he,
who those are that laugh at the most sacred topics of religion,
nor whom they represent in this house ; but I am sure they
do not represent the people of England." (Great cheering.)
Lord Ashley then illustrated his argument, at some length,
by Scriptural reasoning, and concluded by warning ministers
that, even if they should carry the vote, it would be in re-
pugnance to the feelings of the country.
Mr. HAWES made an uncivil and not very able attack on
Lord Stanley, whom he accused of bitterness and uncharita-
bleness, and from whose speech:on the admission of Dissenters
to the Universities he made a quotation, intended to convict
Lord Stanley of inconsistency. The quotation, however,
failed to make out the charge. The only material part of
Mr. Hawes's speech was its conclusion, in which he pressed
the importance of education as a means of diminishing crime,
and showed how very large a proportion of all the metropo-
litan convicts (no fewer than 87 per centum) are unable even
to read or write.

Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said if he thought that, accord-
ing to the usages of that house a division could be obtained
that night, after the speeches which had been delivered by the
two noble lords at his side of the house, he would not at-
tempt any interference in the present discussion ; and he con-
fessed that even then he interfered with considerable reluct-
ance, because anything he could say would only weaken the
effect of the speech of his noble friend near him. He might
not, perhaps, attempt to vindicate that noble friend from what
had been imputed to him, if it were possible that he could
have the opportunity of defending himself. For his part, he
did not wonder that the noble lord's speech had been entitled
intensely unchristian ; for he was sure it had proved intensely
inconvenient to the government, and intensely convincing to
the house. (" Hear," from the opposition.) The hon. gen-
tleman, who had just sat down, had quoted from a former
speech of that noble lord, but he believed that that noble lord
had been misunderstood. He (Lord F. Egerton) had under-
stood the question upon which his noble friend's words had
been used to have been, whether or not the dissenters should
" " had been subjected
to the test of subscribing to the 39 articles. tie mu „-
prebend that it was the intention of his noble friend to
sanction the admission of conflicting versions and imperfect
translations of the Scriptures. He had understood his noble
friend to argue that that house ought not to leave to the com-
mittee of the privy council the discretion of applying the
grant of that house to what the honourable member for Lam-
beth called the system of national education. He was per-
fectly aware that the established church had just reasons to
suspect the movements and the intentions of government.
The Wesleyan dissenters participated in that feeling, and
their remonstrance had been dictated by a calm examination
of the danger with which the established church was threat-
ened. Whatever was the tendency of the resolution proposed,
he had no doubt that the object of the government was to
more widely disseminate the advantages of education ; but in
their eagerness they had lost sight of danger to be appre-
hended from the substitution of moral and doctrinal poison
for the sound and wholesome diet of the mind. The pro-
visions of the proposed measure would doubtless leave ample
room and opportunity to resuscitate every evil which he
believed the government was disposed to avoid. With the
papers which were before the house there was no difficulty,
according to his view of the subject, in determining what
would be the effect of the measure of the government. In-
deed the ministers of the established church, altogether
averse to agitation as they were, and ought to be, objected
to it almost unanimously. To an opposition so steadfast,
calm, and uncompromising the noble lord opposite (Lord
John Russell) would in vain oppose himself and the weight
of his colleagues—more particularly when that opposition
proceeded not only from reverend persons appointed by the
very whig administration that introduced the scheme. Long
would it be before the anticipation of the noble lord would be
accomplished. Long would it be before the noble lord could
safely calculate upon that unanimity of feeling in the different
classes of persons under instruction, which the minute of the
privy council expected and contemplated. He sincerely be-
lieved that it would prove difficult to find among the respect-
able clergy a candidate for the chaplaincy of these normal
schools. The subject had been so nearly exhausted by the
noble lord the member for the west riding of Yorkshire, that
perhaps, it would be the wiser course in him to close his ob-
servations by stating that it was his intention this night to
give to the amended proposition of his noble friend his strong-
est support.

The only other speakers were Sir Walter James in support
of the address • and. Mr. Slaney in defence of the ministerial
scheme. An adjournment of the debate till Wednesday was,
then, agreed upon.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—SATURDAY.
The house met to-day, at three o'clock, to receive the re-
port of the committee on the proceedings in the case of
Stockdale versus Hansard.

On the motion of Lord Howlett, the report was brought
up ; and the Clerk, at the urgent request of several members,
read it to the house.

Lord MAHoN hoped he would be in order when he stated,
that the main question was put to the vote yesterday, and
that in the minority would be found the names of the Solici-
tor-General, Lord John Russell, and. Sir Robert Peel. The
report was then ordered to be taken into consideration on
Monday.

Sir It PEEL presumed, that the subject would have pre-
cedence of all other business.

Lord J. RussELL—lt is a question of privilege, and win,
therefore, have precedence of all other subjects.—The house
then adjourned to Monday.

THE MOORS.—Owing to the long prevalence of dry eas-
terly winds, the ling on the moors in this riding has become
almost as combustible as touch-paper ; and we regret to
learn, that there are persons sufficiently unprincipled to take
advantage of this circumstance to set the ling on fire. This
has been done on several of the moors, but more particularly
on Rumblesmoor. The destruction of grouse is consequenty
very great, as the broods are yet too small to get out of the
way. The part of the moor which has suffered most is in
the parish of Ilkley. A reward of £5O for the apprehension
of the incendiaries has been offered, but hitherto without the
desired effect.—Bradford Observer.
THE WARRINGTON POOR LAW UNlON,—There. was a
very full meeting of the gaurdians of this union. on Wednes-
day ; and a proposition from Mr, Power, the assistant com-
missioner, for adding the townships of Latchford, Grappen-
hall, and Thelwall, to the union, came under consideration.
The guardians present were of opinion that such a step would
be inadvisable, as they considered the further extension of the
union would involve the various townships of which it is
comprised in the expense attending the erection of an addi-
tional workhouse. They afterwards expressed their willing.
ness to have a separate union formed of the townships of
Warrington, and such parts of Latchford and Thelwall as
came within the parliamentary boundary, and to let another
union be formed at Newton, which would include Winwick,
and the twelve other townships now belonging to Warrington
and also take in Culcheth, now a part of the Leigh union.

MILITARY MOVEMENTS.—There have been several move-
ments within the last two or three days, amongst the troops
in this town and neighbourhood, and more may be shortly
expected.—On Thursday morning the staff and the flank
companies of the 86th regiment, under the command of
Lieut.-Colonel Sir Michael Creagh, which had occupied the
Stockport barracks for fifteen months, left that town for
Manchester, and returned, we believe, to their old quarters,
the infantry barracks, Regent-road. We understand that
the regiment is expected to leave this town for Dublin; in
September. The staff and the flank companies of the 20th
regiment infantry left this town on the same day, to take the
place of the 86th, at Stockport. Preparations are making at
Ashton, for the accommodation of a body of troops. The
Dukinfield New Mill" has been taken, and is now•being
fitted up as barracks, with accommodation for six hundred
infantry, and a squadron of cavalry. It is expected that, as
soon as these barracks are completed, the 10th regiment of
infantry (of which four companies are now at Ashton, the
head quarters of the regiment being in this town) will occupy
them. The following is the distribution of the officers of the
20th :—Head quarters at Stockport—Major Hutchinson,
Captain Campbell and Barker, Mr. Crofton, Mr. Vivian,
Lord Mark Kerr, Mr, Crespigny, Mr. Baring, Capt. South,
Mr. Griffith, Mr. Conolly, Mr. Crawley. At Ashton—
Major M`Lean, Captain Dodgin, Crotd; Barlow, Murray,
and Newman ; Mr. Day, Mr. Hennessy, Mr. Steevens, Mr.
Masterson. At Rochdale—Major Smith, Captain Horn,
Mr. Crampton, Mr. De Crespigny. Manchester Guardian.