Star.
London, England, 1826-03-07 00:00:00

•\ .

""""611".PIPT. AMMO Mime its sebool-mas-
-me considered it thoughtless
&mord PA LM ERST(RsI said that: the subject
already is.eri an often argued, that he felt it must be
irksome to the House to discuss it at any length. if
it was necessary to have an Army at all, it was neees-
„.,sary to have .the Officers well instructed. At the ex
twice of 15,13.51. they provided the opportunity forj
young melt destined to the Army to acquire the best possible in-
*ruction of every kind calculated to render them valuable in their
, profession. Those 'silo had already proceeded front that semi..
• nary had generally distinguished themselves.: There were, at•
present, three hundred youths deriving the advantages of that
await to ion.
Mr. HU MR did not mesa .to dispute that the cadets were well
instructed, but he thought that those who were desirous of an
office ought to qualify themselves for it. He enquired how many
days the Oov'ettsor,hatbeen present at the establishment last year ?
Sir A. HOPS said, that lie was the Governor of the
College. He obtained leave of absence for four months,
during the last year, upon urgent private business; but
his attention was not withdrawn from the establishment.
The situation was an arduous one; and, so far from
heing an object of desire, that he had resigned it for the
iituation he formerly held, the salary of which was
only 4001. He now only continued in the situation
until Sir E. Paget, who was in future to fill it, should
arrive in this country. The salary was not too much,
consideri, g the liberal conduct which the Governor wasl
• compelled to displiy towards foreigners visiting the
- 'College, and to the society in the neighbourhood. He
Itad held tl e situati n for ten tears, but had nal grown
Sixpence richer in consequence. He (Sir A. Hope)
-begged that Honourable Gentlemen would consider
what this establishment was: it afforded a,general edu-
cation upon almost all subjects—classics, languages,
mathematics, drawing, fortification—in short, every=
Manly accomplishment. If German was thought un-
,,,necessery, the establishment • might be diminished to
...that extent ; .if classics were deemed superfluous, it
admitted of further reduction. But the establishnseet
had been maturely considered by Government, and was
thought to be not too extensive. Independent of matters
relating to the military profession, our Officers should
be possessed of every aceomplishment—historical knowledge and
classical knowledge. Rewards should excite emulation. On this
principle depelided the whole expense of the establishment. The
Officers who studied at the College were not sent out until they
were found, open examination, to be critically perfect in their duty.
• Colonel W 001) made a few observations in support
of the resolution. The example of the Americans had been referred I
to ; but they had a Military College as well as this country.
Colonel DAVIES remarked, that the expense of the
.Ameritan army was only 500,0001. whilst that of ours was
• 6,000,0001. The Honourable Member complained of the large
and 6=re staff maintained to superintend the education of 216
rift
Sir A. HOPE observed, that if the Gallant Member
knew the duties of these Odicers, be would know that they did not
eat the bread of idleness.
Sir H. HA RDINGE said, that if the Hon. Member
(colonel Davies) had looked into the papers which had
been laid before Congress, in regard to the American
army, he would find that they had £6B cadets, who cost
more than he was aware of. There was an estimate before Con-
gress for horses, which we never thought of. There were always
more cadets at West Point than at our College.
M. HUME contended that it was the duty of his
Majesty's Ministers to see that persons nonainated to
fill offices were properly qualified. Now if the Hon.
Member who was governor of the college (Sir A. Rope)
was right in his sogurnent, the ptinciple should be ap-
plied to all persons under Gravernment. We should
have our ambassadors sent to school, and dancing,
masters as well as other teachers provided, for tlarrasi-i
. We had to pay S 00,0001: to support our istsbassadots,'
. and lamentably did they .figute when they had anal
thing to do. f A laugh, and hear from Mr.C.W. Wfnn.),
The Right Hon. Gent. might know more of the Matter
than he (Mr. Hume), who knew nothing of them but
what came before the public. He would ask she Chansl
tellor (.1 the Exchequer whether 24;0001. (the amount;
of the pay and subscriptions of the cadets and others)l
was not enough for the College? The Government
had no right to teach. at the public expense what these
persi ns could learn at o:her seminaries. If they were
to be taught every thing at the College, why not teach
them the r letters? Here %sere three French maiters,.
. two German masters, three masters of history and
classics, and a drawing master. He contended that
these nir.e masters should- be dispensed with, or that
the pupils should pay them themselves. Here were
6,0001. for teachers, and 6,1601. for the military staff,
making upwards of 12,0001. fur the education of 260
young men. The Him. and Gallant Officer (Sir H,
Hardinge) said, that there were no horses here as in
America; but was, there n^t a riding establishment
sufficient to teach the whole army? lie (Mr. Heine)
contended that the country could not afford to pay 1,5001 to a
rivemoF as well as 1,0951. to a lieutenant-governor; and that the
military pay of the students was sufficient to defray the whole earn
pense of the establishment. The Hon. Member then proposed, as
an amendment, to reduce the vote 3,0001. making the sum voted
fur the whole expense of the college 10,1351.
Sir H. VIVIAN declared .that it was necessary the
field and staff Officer of the Infantry should be perfect-
ed in the equestrian a• t. He took that opportunity of
stating, that he had inqeired into the affair spoken of
the other night by the Honourable Member (Sir F.-
Burden) for Westminster, that happened at Exeter;
and was happy to sly, that the Commanding Officer's
report, which he held in his hand, clearly proved that
the Newspaper statement was a .grans exaggeration, and
that the offender had been guilty of the grossest breach
of military subordination, and that his punishment, such
us it WAS, was inflicted from the wish of avoidiug bodily
chastisement. Indeed; his Royal Highness the Come
:minder in Chief censured the Commanding Officer
for not having the offender tried by a Court-martial,
and punished as he richly deserved. He had also a
letter from the Mayor and Magistrates of Exeter, speak-
ing in the highest terms of the Regiment of the 10th,
so much the object of calumnious • vituperation. The
lion. and gallant Member bore testimony to the 'mai-
• tary character of the 10th Hussars, which he had corn-
mauled for many years. He declared there was no Regiment in
oho service maintained a higher character fur discipline--as their
Saving a young Nobleman for their present Adjutant evinced.
Mr. MONCK wished °Seers to be educated at their own
expense.—General Gescorse supported the original Resolution.
Ale. NUMB had no objection to the sons of Officers being
cheaply educated at the Military College.
Sir J. YORKE denounced the system of instruction
ar the several Colleges and Universities of the country,
e here, he said, nothing was taught but prr,fligacy and
(Laughter) The young Men left those
places without a single idea in their heads, with thick
sculls and hard hearts, (Laughter.) and were then
appointed to fill most important stations. He excepted
the Military College from this charge.
Mr. HUNIE still contended •that the tbarge was
unexampled. At Woot.wich, there were 200 pupils ;
and one Lieuieriant-Governor, at 4001. a year, did the
whole inspections At Sandhurst, there were 195 pupils,
and there was a Lieutenant-Governor at I,oocif. a yev, and a Go-
vernor at 1,5001. He protested against the weavers at Bolton or

t

I c

, 65.
On the House resuming, proposed for
garrisons at home anti abroad.
Mr. HUME objected chat, in a variety of cases, Go-
vernors, and Lieutenant-Governors were kept up, whose
appOintments were merely nominal. Some never re•
sided at all; and in many places the garrisons were
only kept up fur the purpose of plating a certain
number of sineeorei at the disposal of Government.—
Ile wished to know w by Fort Augustus and Fort Wil-
liam—two places which the Military Commission had
recommended for reduction—were not given up? and
why there was an increase in the estim de for them for

the present year? He understood that they were still
maintained at the desire of the Dike of Wellington.—
He was afraid that the favoured Officers, and those of Influence,
.sot more reward than the nu.ritorious ones. Who, for instance,
was the Governor of Hull, with pay at more than 80(1/. a year?
Lord PALNIERSTON said, that many of t:.e posts'
were not sinecures, and that such as were, were re-
wards given to meritorious offis.ers for se vices which.
they -cl peiformed. It the appoi :tiients had beer.
demolished, of coarse the offices) attached to them
would have retained their pay during life ; sn that
nothing would have been gained. The trifling inctease
in the estimate arose from some addition of pay given to non com-
missioned ()Seers. Really., the qiestion came shortly to this--
whether the Crown ought or ought not to have it in its ipowet "to
reward long services?
Sir A: HOPE said that Lord Hill, second in command to the
Duke of Wellington in the Peelnsula, was Governor of Hull.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had changed his opini
since the last year and could not vote with the Member
for Aberdeen. He did not understand the explanation respecting
the two forts In Scotland, which were recommended nut to be
kept up, by-the Finance Committee.
Sir H. HARDINGE said, that one of the forts was
necessary to protect the locks of the Caledonian Canal, and the
otberwv required as a barrack.
Mr; HUME said, that unfortunately these forts were
built lohg after the Union took place. He protested
against the sum of 5,9001. being paid for garrisons in
Gibraltar, in Canada, and the Cape of Good Hope. At the Cape
of Good Hope this expence could be borne easily by the colonists,
and they would readily pay it if they bad not a Governor who was
detested by all the world.
Sir A. HOPE said, he thought the largnage used by the Mon.
Member extremely unbeitmaing.
Tne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sald,ik
was not to the Honourable Member's opposition to ,the
vote that his Gallant Friend objected, but to the en.'
guarded phrase which he had suffered himself to use, when be
stated that the Governor of the Cape of Good lope was hated by
all the world.
Mr. HUM it said, that if the Cape had another ,Governor, it
might be made to pay all its own expenses. In sayiut,that Lout
C. Somerset was detested by everybody, he meant everybody at
the Cape; and as far as his own knowledge went, it was so—
(Ciies e;[ Order.)
The ATTOItNEY-GENERAL—A man under accusation!
Mr. HUME.—Under accusation! Why, that Was jusuirhst he
avid—under serious accusations—for which he ought to be brought_
jostice—(Order, order).
W ILMOT-lIORTON said, that the Mon. Member 'realty
seised to have constituents in the colonies as well as in'Aberdeeta-
-(Laugbter).—Hls statement that the people of the Cape would
be willing to pay theirowneupeoses if Lord Charles. Somerset was
renovate -wasatike incorrect: sad whets be talked of "bringing to
)ued -or—was-it right, or usual for a public dicer to be splits of
isicbsioway ? $n in Canada, he believed, the Hon. dentleman
PPM End it difficult to prove•thit the inhabitants would be happy
Shilliahatainthemselvtei. Lord Cluirlea gessiwrsei could eat regrew
Mylifigaitsitantil hie suocesons strived at chef Cape;' and the earliest
means bad been taken to send sat -a proper alter.
.colomjdailkirlitB declared that there was too much of jolibing
ailtbielbecjp she colonial system. • •• ,
in ICS , sore undirssood ouiogised the Aker who-,
.. • -
ha been IC!* Ogit so reline Lord Cicadas Somerset.
*.Mr. 'HUME said, his Hum. Friend nit glit as well have
eulogised Sir Peregrine Tickle—(Losid. laughter). —lle
wished Jo know very there were gar:rip:los to be paid
for at the Cipe of Good II ipe, when there were none.
at Jamaica? lie rivived that the vote be reduced 59014
being the sum for garrisons at Gibraltar, the Cape el Good Hope,
and the Canticles.
Mr. WILMOT HORTON said, that at the Cape of
Good Hope the taxes were imposed by the , Govern-
ment, and the proposition of the Hon. Member. would
be, dile the Colonists should be further taxed to this amount, and
which he (Mr. Hortoii) contended they could not bear.
Lord PALMERS CON said, that if the Hort. Member
objected to this vote because t'-e Colonies ought to pay
for their garrisons, the principle would lead-him to the same objec-
tion with respect to other military forces.
Sir It. WILSON was of opinion that the Cape of
Good H-ape had the means of paying all its expences.
Under the Dutch G•svernor a large military chest had
been collected during a time of difficulty.
The Committee divided—
For the Amendment
For the original Resolution ~ •
Majority

21
. ' 106

. .
For the charge of full pay for reduced, retired, and
unattached Officers of his Majesty's Forces ,C 125,500 0
For the charge of ball-pay to reduced and retired .
Officers of his hlajesty's Land Forces . . 724,100 0
For military allowances under the same head . 46.430 2 41‘
These resolutions were agreed to without observation.
Fur the charge of half-pay
.and reduced allowances to .
Officers of disbanded foreign corps, of pensions to
wounded foreign Officers, and of allowances to the
widows and children of deceased: foreigh Officers . . £107,246
Mr. HU Al l asked whether these Officers were allowed to aell
their half-pay.
Lord PALMERSTON said they were permitted to sell, as in
the case of our own corps, with this difference, that they had not
so large an allowance.
Mr. HUME said, that such a system enabled them to sell to
young Officers, and so to perpetuate the half-pay list.
Lord PALMERSION assiiiei the Hun. Member
that it was by no means perpetuating the half. pay list,
for that those who bought were not a bit more immortal
than thoseirho sold. Foreign Officers were slot allowed
to sell after they were above a certain age, and unless,
they produced 'a certificate shewing that they laboured
under no disease or casualty likely to shorten the period of life.—.
One good effect of this plan was, that it converted a half-pay list of
foreigner., who could not be 'celled von to perve without an Act
of Parliament, into one which was available for service whenever
Officers might be wanted. No Foreign Officers bad been put en
half-pay without having been in service.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
For the charge on account of the ImPensionen of Chel-
sea Hospital, and of the Royal Hospital near Xil-
mainham . . set 9,27 l
Mt. MIME asked, whether there was any intends* of dli-1
maatling Kilmainhani Hospital. He would submit that the Par'
sinners could be removed to Chelsea.
Sir C. LONG said, that undoubtedly if they extended the build-
ing so as to accommodate 800 men instead of 500. as how, the two
estaklishments could be consolidated. But he doubted whether it
would effect any saving. .
Sir• G. MURRAY thought that Irish soldiers who had fought
and bled in the service, ought to have a retreat in their awn
country—(Hear). The Resolution was carried.
For the Charge of Out-Pensioners of Chelsea Hosp. £1,285,568
Mr. HUME said, that this charge had increased in a most ex-
traordinary degree. At the commencement of the peace it was
720,0001. and this year it was increased to 1,285,0001. He wished
to know the reason of this Increase.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the country bad pro-
vided a reward for men who had gone through a entail.,

1 •

, of serviCea dr been disabled in its defence, and
such men now claiced the stsppost,Wwilich they
iistitled.behlws 'The nunibers,of Abe* pensioners
increased sin& the peadif, and 'that
,was tbekause
le increase of ,expenst. In 1821, the number was
4100 ; in 1822, 81,000 ; ih 1823, 81;000 ; in .1824,
31,000 andanrire odd hundreds; in 1825, 81,800; and
in this year, 82,734. After a war like that which had
passed, for ;nme time a nrimber of casualties must
asccer, greater than the diminution caused by death. lie *l4
certain there was no source of economy front which the House'
would Ond so little pleasure, as from that which grudged the pito
tance bestowed upon those poor men.
Mr. HUME said there must be something wrong
when this increase took pl.ce at a rrioJ so removed
from the expiration of the war. 13y a salculat!on of
his he found that if the whole army had been dish inded
in a day at the commence -nent of the peace, and all the
r4ficeis in the service placed upon half-pay,- the list
would not.have been grea er than it now WAS •
Sir CHARLES LONG obserireJ, that in 1822 *he
Kilmainham fr..nsioners had been transterreJ to Chelsea
llnspital. Tnere had, hoxever, been an increase in the
item, fir which he could well ac.ount. The Veteran
Ba talons had. been ,transfers ed to this list, and some'
regiments arrived from the East Indies. That accounted
but partially for the increase, and some persons had
been sent through the country- in England, to inquire
hedrer some frauds had not been practiced in the Out
Pension List. In Engl and none had been discovered.
He had pursued the same course with respect to Ireland,
but had not as yet been able to find that there was fraud
any where. The increase was probably chiefly owing
t., the S:rvice Pension List exiting under MA Wind-
ham's system, adopted when the House and country
did not seem to hate the least idea of the extent to
which the expence-might he carried. He bad opposed
that Service Pension plan at the time it was proposed,
and he was now most clearly convinced that it oaght
never to have been carried into effect. But that regula-
tion had been subsequently altered, and its provisions
contineJ to those who had enlisted under that system.

The rest were under a different regulation, and not
entitled to a Service Pension until they had served 20
years. Under the former system, it was competent in
many instances for persons to retire on Se' vice Pensions,
whose ages only amounted to about 30 years in each case.
Sir J. HOPE observed, with reference to what the
Honourable Gentleman h id said of the increase in the
Half-pay Army List, that the Government was not to
blame; for in that particular a reduction had tak-n
piace. In 1816, 18 or 1900 officers had been reduced; in 1818,
linear 1,000 officers had been reduced; in 1819, 3,000 officers had
been reduced ; and in 1821, 1,000 Akers had been reduced.
Air. HUME asked bow it came, tba4frorn 1821, the amount had
been reduced by only 40,0001.?
L rd PALMERSTON said, that the Honourable
Member was mistaken. In 1821, tt e sum was 838,000 i
ia 1822, it was 870,00 W. but now it had diminished
to 700,0001. so that a very considerable diminution
had taken place. The officer; who had been promoted
were all senior or second senior Lieutenants, of seven-
teen years standing in their ranks, escepi one uho had
served in the battle of Waterloo, and whose case Was
somewhat ptetuli.tr. The Captains who had been pro-
moted to the rank* Majors, and received half-pay as
such, were officers of twenty-six years service. The Majors who
had been promoted to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonels; had served
Ler twenty-eight years; and there VMS no instence of we being pro 7
mil ed b' purchase over the head of his senior, where that senior
himself chow to purchase.
Sir E. KNAT,CHBULL observed upon the impri.r,
ptie.iagranting perl,ions to mua not more than ;hint
years of age. sod spoke.of the necessity which might ultiniarely
-arise for. the Hoes* to exercise a constitutional authority on the
•
subject, which, however, be did not press for tarragon.
Sir C. LONG slid, that what he had stated was this :
that 1 ersons of that age, it they came within %Ir. Wind-
ham's system, might demand their
.ply as a r'ght,
which, under the law, cou'd not b • refused them.—
Under Mr. Windham's Act, aster 14 years, or three
,years less, if the service was in the Easi or West Indies, they could.
Atlaini pensions for life.
General GASCUY NE observed, that Mr. Windham'. Act was
a rash system, adopted out of whim, and Its effects would still be
felt for 10 years to come.

v Glasgow being embed apes lb kay r elks edad dies at guidable' pea*
was; and next year, please ,/faip it be was is die am% be that I
would object to tbe vote altogether.
ri Sle 13:11ARDINgSaggielliblieb Ma attbe7 weft, be& haa
nd"' of the fisisinsit'ut the. acedevity7 several ulcers of rank oil
day; 4al tYfir. ?Keene, rendititt appointments unnecertary of the
,„
which it was absolute* retpdsistat stake•at Sandhuhtt
69 M
The novae then divided, when the numbers were— 81,0(
'or the Grant, 87 I Against it, St I Majority, 65.
thi
Oa the House resuming, a Grant of 35,48 W. was proposed for