Star.
London, England, 1816-05-04 00:00:00

clorg
1

rte of last year, those two
tf £364,0W; but, by the
the emount would be
:onsequently, a saving of
the average of seven years,
was rather ass exceeding,
year. ,The Noble Lord
from the charge of an ex-
:he public money: The'
termed personal to the
observed, when compared
expenditure. as a drop of
, instance the Crown was
in order to do away mis-
could be more afflicting to
have the Civil List, year
\vassed . that House, as an expense
sl to himself. He should now give an
a part of the estimate, which a Right,
Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), called for, on a for-
4"— clang -but which he refused to offer, un:il it
owe
be given, in connection with the whole subject.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had moved for the usual
owes, relative to the Civil List, which, according
Ad of Parliament, were tq be laid before the
tijose„ One Estimate, he perceived, was absent
tot for the quarter ending in January last. The
tows of the delay in producing the Estimate was
is: his Royal Highness the Prince Regent was in
progress of incurring an expenditure at Brighton.
the purpose of establishing his family there. Be-
, the Estimate was made out, it was necessary to
r whether the expenses occurred at Brighton
or should not be included in it e This led to
,saraisiation of the whole expenditure at Brighton.
vas at length agreed, as Brighton was not altoyal
palace, being, in fact, the private property of the
isitice Regent, that the expense should not be
cned in the accounts of the Lord Chamberlain.
ti'llte Lords of the Treasury thought it was more ad-
,isAble that the amount should be defrayed out of the
Drees of the Cr:)wn, instead of being charged on the
Ws of the Lord Chamberlain's department. lie
stolid seismic to the House the minutes of the pro-
ceedings which took place on this subject, and whets
the Right Hon. Gentleman read those papers, he
would hare the ease as clearly before him as possible,
The Noble Lord then observed, that the expenses of
his depArtment, which in the last year was two bun-
died and twenty-site thousand pounds, were now es-
timated at two hundred thcusand, being a saving of
tweot).six thousand pounds. This estimate was'
founded on a scale of the most extensive connection
with the Continent—no Court being at present shut
sgaiust us. This expense was formerly charged on
the Civil List : now it was considered improper that
&Civil List should have an opportunity of benefit-
ting to the amount of one honored or one hundred
*fifty thousand pounds, in case of any calamity
cawing on the Continent, which might destroy our
connection with some of tiie foreign Courts. It was
therefore :waded to charge this sum on the Conso.'
lidated Fund, to which the saving would necessarily
go, if, unfortunately, any Contittental.tupture nay.
rowed nu. sonneLoon with foreign Courts. If any
ocrasioa arose for an extraordinary mission, it was
;wooed that Ministers should come down to Parlia-
irnt :ind ask for the necessary sum. With respect
tp, the filth class, his Royal Highness had been pleased
tamer that not more than five hundred pounds
spar sbo.s;d br expeaded, wisher for creating new,
odicers, increasing the salaries of the old, or pensions
in those who reared, until the expenses in the de.
pirtteetta which it comprised fell from A 110,000 to
125,000 per annum, which was the smallest suns
•:t could sup ort it. it was also in contemplation.,
determine on what odicers might be. dispensed
in order to accelerate the proposed reduction.'
1e now came to-the occasional payments. Many of
hese were cstused by the war, and now, on the re-
in of peace, they ought to be reduced. They had
I.:e amounted to 330, 340, and even £350,000.0-,301,
,301, St, acid S, they were also very high. In
'4l; they amounted to e2271.,000, and in 1'302 they
were ss high as £3C6,000. It was proposed, with
:sites to these occasional payments, to adopt the
piaci* laid down in the Report, and to it all on Par-
iier.Lat to vote a reasonable suns yearly for contin-
esti* This would give the House a most potent
hold on that expenditure, which, above all others,
afforded a latitude to the discretion of the Crown.—
He new came to the last head of alteration ; but he
should abstain from entering into a detail ofe it, be-
cause his Bill would fully explain his intentions. It
Was stated byahe Committee .of last year to be essen-
tially necessary that a conttool should be established
nef the Household. It was meant therefore to cre-
ate an Officer who should come in direct contact with
the Household—who should not be informed of the
upenses incurred by estimate, but should be made,
setuaioted with them in their progress; and who
Meld have the power, as far as possible, to reduce
the general expenditure. That Officer should be ap-
Pined by the Treasury,- with power to act in the
tot efficient manner, without, however, destroying
authority of the heads of departments. It would
be tuitions if so extensive a power were given ; for,,
%it the hos of authority would be coupled loss of
:responsibility also. This arrangement would pro-
duce a proper audit of the accounts ; for Gentlemen
bust be aware, that at present they were audited by
the Commissioners of Public Accounts, who, in con-
sequence of the mass of business they had to transact,
could not jospret tbem in time, and undoubtedly
hey ought to be audited within the year he there-
1131e Proposed to create an Officer who should act
under the instructions cf the Treasury, and for whose
direction, in the audit of the accounts, a code of regul-
'Li's& was to be drawn up by the Treasery. 'this
Officer was to have the power, when he had reason
in believe dou any abuse had taken place, to call
Persons before him, for the papose of fully sifting
the business. Such a regulation would add to the
fufort and dignity of the Crown, and would tend
1° guard the beads of departments from undue and
extravagant expenditure. This was a general de-
sct of his plan, which be hoped would be fonod
usistent with that liberality that was due to the
Organ, and with that economy which was called for
1Y the country. By granting to the Crown a proper
'°4 unconnected with those expenses shot ought
ibis in justice, to be charged on it, they would put
this diffictilt and interesting subject on as satisfactory
a tooting as its nature would admit. The Secretary
0f State for the oreign Department would, mailer
vie mg arrangement, be priced is .a more arduous

.

eitattion than he ever before stood in. His responsi-
bility would be greatly increased, when, year after
year, he would be obliged to justify to the House the
necessity of the different expenses of his department.
which were of a description that Gentlemen looked
on with a more jealous eye than almost any other.
The Crown had been most unfairly, upjustly, and,
unfortunately for the country (for any Wiwi, cast on
the head of the Government must injure the country)
been accused of profusion and extravagance. From
this charge it was-his duty to rescue the Sovereign,
and he hoped he had succeeded. In the Bill which
he was about to move for leave to bring in, there
were two or three clauses, which, as they went to al-
ter the present system, as supported by A et of Parlia-
ment, it would be hecessary, in the first instance, to
submit to a Committee. He therefore Meant to print
the Bill, without these clauses, which should also be'
printed in a separate shape, and thus Gentlemen
would be enabled to judge accurately of the nature of
the measure. There would also be placed in the hands
of Gentlemen the documents necessary for a just un-
derstanding of the question. First, the prospective
Estimate, in which the different heads of charge were
specified. and compared with the items of last year.
A second paper was, an account of the Droits of the
Crown from the Ist of January, 1814, to the present
time, Pointing out what the state of those funds were,
the assignments made out of them. and the remain-
ing balance. The Noble Lord concluded by moving
for leave to bring in a Bill for the batter regulation
of his Majesty's Civil List."
Mr. TIERNEY expressed his determination. not-
withstanding the measure introduced by the /sloble
Lord, to redeem the pledge he had given to the
House, on the subject of the Civil List. He should
at present say little on the subject, as the ques-
tion would, on Monday, be fully discussed. He
would not then offer any objection to the Bill, but
he did not thereby pledge himself not to oppose it,
if neceselery, at a future period, He complained oil
the manner in which the Noble Lord introduced pa-
pers to the Horse. They never were produced till
it was too late in the Session to fuake use of them.
A month ago he miared for an account of the Droits
of the Crown, which was ready since the 23d of
February, but it was not forthcoming until the Noble
Lord had made his motion—and it then seemed to
be produced for the purpose of creating ember-'
rammer. The correspondence, relative to the esti.
mate of the Civil List Expenditure, for the quarter
ending in January list, was ale!) ready on the e3d
of February--and now, for the first time, the Noble
Lord thought fit to produce it.—(Hear, bear !)
What answer did the Noble Lord in eke when called
upOn to produce this paper, which he admited was
ready, on a former occasion ; Why, forsooth, that
he did not wish to present it till he could accompany
it with an exphinat;on of his own and yet now that
he had presented it, his own explanation was pet.
tectly unintelligible ; and at 'last he was obliged to
refer to the paper itself. Tliushe (Mr. 'eierney),
after all the trot hle and pains lie had taco to make
himself acquainted with the estimates upon this sub.
I ject, had now his work to do over again, and had be.
tween this and Monday to devote himself night and
day to examine die new estimates of the Noble
Lord. In his opinion, the platy of the Noble Lord
was calculated to give satisfaction, neither to the
House nor the country. For his own part, he had
nothing in view, but to reduce the expenditure of jlie
Civil List to the situation of the country, at the *Ai
time, taking care to support the splendour of. the
Crown, with becoming dignity. (!icar, hear.) He
could not help. observing, however, that front the
course taken by the Noble Lord. he should come to
his motion, en Monday next, under considerable dis.
advantage.
Lord CASTLEREAGH was satisfied,lidni the
Right Honourable Gentleman's acquaintance with
this subject, thathe would be as well prepared to enter
upon this question by a preparation of two dais as
of two months. He had objected to taking
.this
question on former occasions in parts. because he
thought all its branches should be brought under dis-
cussion at the same time.
Mr. TIERNEY said, he might understand the
propositions of the Noble Lord himself, but what he
complained of was, that the papers alluded to by the
Notate Lord would not be in the hands of ;he Mem-
hers of the House, and although he might succeed in
making the 'Noble 'Lord comprehend him, he might
not be equally successful with the House, unless the
oapers were in their possession.
Sir FitANCIS BURDETT objected to the as-
sumption of the Noble Lord, timed was propest•to
employ the Droits of the Crown and the Admiralty
withzut the consent of Parliament. He, denied that
there was net, propriety whatever in such a course,
and begged to take this-occasion of protesting against
this proposition; in principle as well as practice, as
well as against the other doctrines which the Noble
Lorithad promulgated. The Noble Lord bad talked
of the out-goings of the 001 List having a tendency
to exceed the provision made by Parliament,•and ot
the difficulty of correcting this evile--there. was one
short way of effecting, ;this .object, and that was,
simply for Parliament to refuse to:make good those
excesses, Arid to iefuse to pay any debts Which the,
Crown might think proper. taincur. 41100- or-
der to bring this matter to a clear understandkng, be
thought Minieters should.be responsible for any .oute
goings beyond what had been voted by pArliaalLlt.
The Noble Lord had stated, that throughout many
of the administrations of this country, it had bieb
found imposiible to coutroul the expenditure of the
Civil List. If the effort bad never been made, there
was little chance of effecting the object ; but if . Mr.
Burke's Bill had not been violated, this would pmr
have beep the case. For Himself he could ottly *ay,
that an effectual check might he given to these ex.'
ceases by Parliament itself exerting its own vigilaoce,
and by calling Ministers to an. account for the misap-
plication of the public property; for he contended
that such was the character of the conduct of Minis-
ters in applying the Droitstof the Crown and the'
Admiralty withouothe consent of the Legislature. •
Leave was then given to bring in she jean.
MUM .
Mr,. ARBUTHNOT presented the. Estimates of
the Civil List for the lass quarter, and an Account,
of the receipti and application of the Droits of the
Crown and Admiralty, by order m the Rrince Reg'
•
scow-Ordered to tie on the table,
The Cork Duty Bill was rid atlord time id • •
The Soap Duty Bill was reed a atilt neett.:4o4o4l am!'
send dine on ktora4ay awe

wren cuansny.
Mr. OR.ENFELL presented a Petition from eer.,
keit) Inhabitants of the City of London, complaining
of the state of the Silver Currency of the country,
and praying that means might be taken by Parlia-
ment to correct this evil. He begged to take this
opportunity of remarking,. that he was informed his
Majesty's Ministers had some measure in contempla-
tion upon this subject. •He trusted whateveepl.an
might be adopted, that his Majesty's Minlsiers would
act upon the principle which was recognized by evoril
Mint in Europe, with the exception al that, of Eng-
land—and a principle which had been advocated
with great ability by the late Lord. Liverpool. in
180, lamely, that of giving to the people Such a
silver coin as the state of thu market would afford.
guarded by such securities as would prevent it from
being melted down. He also took' this opportunity
of vindicating the Officers of the Mint, against WhoM
some animadversions passed on a former night,, and
begged to bear his testimony to their zeal, attention,
and ability, in the Offices in which.they were placed.
Mr. W. POLE did not .mean to object to the
bringing up of this Petition, and desired to state that
the Honourable Gentleman was correctin the ender-
standing which he had of his Majesty's Ministers hav-
ing a plan in contemplation for the improvement of
the silver currency of the country. This, however,
was an intricate subject, which the House would ad-
Mit it would take some time to arrange. He was also
obliged to the Honourable Gentleman for having
paid a just tribute to those Officers of the Mint who
had been so unjustly aspersed on a former niiht. So
far were these Gentlemen from being found incom-
petent o their ditties, that, oft the contrary, their la.
bouts were attended with the greatest success. In
no instance was this better demonstrated than in their
coinage of louis d'ors, in which they had succeeded
so well as to eall%forth the praise of the Master of the
Mint at Paris. He wished the Gentleman who had
thought proper to question their ability (Mr. Baring)
was present, as he had brought down eight of those
coins, sour coined in Paris and four in England,
which were so much alike as almost to defy distinc-
tion, and which he would have handed across the
table, so that the Honourable Gentleman to whom
he alluded might have..had an opportunity of ac-
knowledging his mistake—(l/ear,-hear, heari)
Mr. J. P. GRANT suggested the expediency of
making silver the legal tender in this country as in all
others, and leaving gold to find its own market.
Sit JOHN NEWPORT wished to know by what
authority we had Counterfeited the coin of Frzace ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
we had the sanction of the French King tor this
coinage.
- Mr. W. POLE denied that there was any coun-
terfeit of the French Innis d'ors, as we had not
stamped those coined in this country with the in irk
of the French Mint.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to know for what
purpose this coinage had taken place ? •
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER
;inswpred, that it, was to pay the Oritish army un en-
tering trance.
' Ttie 'Petition was thee brought up, read, and or-
dered to le on-the Table.
• • : LZATHaIt.
.70;11d. 4LeTHCI4P• moved for a Return of the
Drawbacks on Leather exparted from Licotland
during the last four years.—Ordered.
v 02030 PANIC NOTE%
General THORNTON moved----4° That there be
laid before the House an 'Account of the nominal
value "of such Rink
.Notes. paid into the Bank of
England, as had afterwards proved to be forgeries,
from the Ist tf Jannary, 1812, to the latest period."
Ordereil '

RANK RESTRICTION ACT.
'Upon the•elotiOn of the CLIANCELLOR of the
EXCITEQUEEL..the -.House resolved uself into a
Committee upon the above Act. The first clause
being.read, for cOnitiming the Restrictions until July
5,* 1818, •
Mr. HORNER observed, that it was not his in-
tention to • erge any objection against the proposed
term of two years. becanse he did hope, from what
appeared to be the temper of the Hoo.ta on a former
evening, and what fell from some Honourable Gen-
tlemen in particular, that the Bill would not be per-
mitted to come out of the Committee merely as a re-
newal of the Restrictions. He trusted, on the con.'
trary, that it would express to the country and to the
Bank the opinion of Parliament, that this was to be
understood as the last possible renewal which could
be granted ; and that this large interval of time was
givetb in order -that the Bank and the Gosernment
might, together, take such measures as would enable
the former to resume their payments in specie at the
expiration of the declared period. That was his ex-
pectation, but if 'it should turn out otherwise, he
'should then feel it his duty to take the sense of the
11? use in every future stage of the Bill, as to the pro-
prrety of extending the Restrictions for to long a ;ime.
He trusted, however, that course would be rendered
unnecessary, by the introduction into the Bill of some
clause which would accomplish his objee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Said, he perfectly coincided in what had fallen from
'the Honourable and Learned. Gentleman. He coati
deed, the term of two years s.s only so much time
granied.to. the Bank, to enable it to prepare for the
resumption of cash payments, without any injury to
the public interests. At the contlusion of that time, it
al). those favourable-.circumstances should continue„
whiclenow existed, the Bank would regard itself as
Positively bound to pay in specie. One year would
be too short for such. an operation, and therefore he
.should certainly recommend to the House to pass the'
Bill in its present form. Wkh respect to the object
'cnntemplated by the Honourable and Learned Geo.'
Aleuiewv he thought that would be distinctly attained
by the very principle of the Bill. •
'Mr. HOKNELL-replied, that what he wished 'Wail
totave a clause introduced into the Bill, which shOuld
umbedy the opinion of Parliament, as expressed on
All sides of the House, as to the absolute .necessity
'that the. Bank should resume its cash payments after
the time designated. As to the course now pursued,.
It left the Bill just as barren, as before upan that point:
.rtlfloarr, trier)--If he felled in persuading the Corn-
glutei, "to introduce such a 'clause, he should feel
ittaiself. bound. to purple the measure he had already
jotiatased. His object was, not -to prescribe any
piwteific plin which the Bank were to adopt ; on thit
reboot he would repose tits entire parliatimentary coo•

. : .. t ' "

•

Sdence io them: but why not act upon the declare.
tion made by en Honourable Director on a farmer
evening, that if the House would give its directions
to the Bank, the Bank would follow them ? N. w
that was precisely what he wanted to have in the pre-
sent Bill, a declaration to the Bank end the "cautery'
that this Was the last time any further restrictions .
would be allowed. The Hotiottrable and Learned
Gentleman then proposed s clause, the enacting part
of which provided, that, by tee sth. lily, ISIS, the
Bank should be ready to 0 ty all its promissory notes.
on 4einand, in specie i with a recital, setting forth, •
That it Parliament should find' it prodeet or safe to
require the resumption of cash partients • before that
period, it should be at liberty to dos°.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought the object of the Honourable and Learned
Gentllmanis clause might be attained without its in-
sertion.
He had given notice, on a former evening,
of his intention to introduce certain words into the
preamble of the Bill, declaratory of the intention of
Parliament, which he would now read to the House.
He apprehended they would be found better than thil
clagse of the Honourable and Learned Member,
1 which, in point of fact, enacted nothing more than.
Iwhat the law hadalready declared. Alter the usual
words of the preamble. that it was highly desirable
1 the Bank of England should, as soon as possible, re..
turn to its payments in cash, he proposed to add-
-44 but kis expedient also that a further continuance
in the present restrictions be granted, in order to
alfotd time to the Bank for resuming such payments
in cash witout puhlicioconvenience. ' He did not
think it would kpossible to have a more distinct de.
aeration of the sense of Parliament.
Mr. GRENFELL said, he collected from the ob-
servations of the ?tight Hon. Gentleman that he
wished the House to trust in his opinions, rather than .
in a Parliamentary declaration. He (Mr. Greulell)
was more disposed to confide in the latter than On the
former; for last year, when the same subject was be.
fore Parliament, the Right Hon. Gentleman cora.
&tidy affirmed that he thought the Bank might re-
sume its cash payments next July, and now, when the
price of bullion was much lower, and the foreign_ee.
changes in our favour every where, he called upon
Parliament to protract the restrictions two years
longer.' He should, therefore, prefer a parliamentary
declaration to any opinion which he might offer.
-Mr. MARR YAT thought that the addition pro.
posed by the Chancellor clrthe Exchequer to the pre-'
amble of the Dill was not so authoritative as a clause
introduced into its enactments, and that it was totally
insufficient for the end.in view. It was necessary to '
return speedily to cash payments, if lie wished to
maintain commerce, to stiNv.rt our manufactures, or
to prevent the recartencts-o! those &stresses and con-
-1 vulsions under whi‘h the country was at present suf-
fering. It sitould be recollecied that peace had placed
us in a differenl• situation with tepid to. out
fireign trat!e than that #hich we occupied in. war.
—ln war we enjoyed A monopoly, aad however
nigh the price we, demanded, we could: mbtain,
it,. because we had no competitors in..the market.
Now [he case was aite:ed. Ci(elr- nations wae clai tn.
Mg theft' share of the general advantages resulting
from trade and industry, and they toted enter the .
career without our but dons.- -Tfey could afford tO
fabricate ahnost an articles in whiCh we dealt clieaper • •
than we. They could undersell us in the markets. to _
which we resorted. They
.cpuldL._mettufacture cheepee
than we—they could navigate Weir -Vessels for less.
Out of 186 ships that passed the Havannah with car-
goes for South America, not one was British. If we
looked at the property coqnected with our commerce
and ;hipping, we saw a lamentable depreciation.—
The shares in the fund of the I...indon Docks, that
sold for 120 or 150 per cent. now sold for 70 or 75.
The issue of paper had turned the foreign exchanges
against us. This circulation bad been diminished,
and produced distress. He rejoiced at this diminu-
tion of the currency, although it had been productive
of temporary inconvenience; because, otherwise, we
might be universally undersold in foreign markets.
Our ships would be without eliploymena, our Mann.
f accuser's without work, our capital unproductive..
Nothing could prevent this bet the precaution of re.
turning to cast payments.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
repeated his statement, that the opinion of Parliament
would be sufficiently declared in the preamble, by the
"introduction of the words he had read.
Mr. SMYTH supported the clause.
Mr. BAIslii.ES er.ifessed that the Bill, as it stood;
at present, did not, in his opinion, sufficiently express
the intentions of Parliament. By merely introducing
the words proposed by the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman, it would look like nothing more than one of
the ordinary renewals of the restrictions, If, there.
fore, there were no other reason for departing from
the customary mode, he would do it, to chew that•
they meant tome:hi:lg different from what they had
formerly done. He wished to 'convey to the Bank
and to the Public :In idea that they were now in ..ear..
tizst. He would suggest the aarertion of some such.
words as the foli:ming—, That it is expedient to,
provide that the slid Act should be further continued,
and a time tiled in which the said restrictions should.
cease." They would definitively determine the
meaning of Parliament, and then it might be further
added—" that the said Act should continue in force
till the sth July, 1818, and no lenger.'?"
Mr. HUSIgSSON censiileti reti:dthee.
iie of
debate i st.f
mucht e
foerneiceVeging as having tea pro
gocsd, as it bsad eltteidited. the grOonds On'Which. the
Dill was to pass the. Honda. The principle which Mi.
Pistol actc4 On was tint hom any political viewi, but
. ,
stmpky . tax prepatin the' Bank. to meet ,the : cieniand
riviticfr •squiticrbe4es Fily be made' an then). He
thought it reasonabl to grant therasufficient time for
preparatioe,ae4l was glad tcriee the Muse agreed on
this general grounclu tte preanible, had been oh.
jetted to,. in Ontsexpience of its lieiiig virtually the
same with llseyear's preamble, anclit had been said
the Directors wereinst as sincere then in their klesires
'to meet the pnblic,demands for cash payments as
they ,were nor., Out he dittsset agree in the opinion
lof their having made no implication for .such paT-
merits, as they knew well 'The'intentions of Parlia-
ment, end consequently mud hive prepared.. Re
wished, so.ne words to he introduced into the prune:
ble, to obviate ever doubt which might aria on the•
subject, and suggested these words be aided—" To
afford time to them-to make such prepayations with,
out public inconvenience, for meeting the public do.
minds, as to their experietice and wisdom ilio;:yi

di;: tic.:. ~i.i.~~.v~.

arriametit. By the estiMal
lases created an expense of
huge of the present year
70,0(X). There was, Cm
,ope as compared with th
p 1811, although there
cotnrahen red_with the'last
delended• the Crown fi
tt
oapaut expenditure of
irnses which might be
rinse Regent, were, he oh
jib the whole mass of ex
ate is the ocean. In this
ctiog a most painful part,
cations. Nothing ct
prince Regent than to
year, canvassed in the
• personal to himself.
• -•:•,n- on a part of the