Star.
London, England, 1819-03-03 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLICA.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT held a Petition from the
otesunt Inhabitants of the City of Waterford. It
h.id received their signatures without any solicita-
tion, but from the impulse of their free-will, and
prayed that those restrictive laws which had been
imposed in former times on their Catholic brethren,
be now done away with the necessity in which they
originated. It considered the effect of those laws as
degrading and'oppressive. If such were the senti.
menu of Protestants on that subject, what must be
those of the Catholics themselves ?—(Hear, hear),
He presented this Petition with real satisfaction, for
he presented it as an earnest of that reconciliation
which he trusted would shortly unite all classes of his
Majesty's subjects in indissoluble bonds.
A MEMBER, well acquainted with the City of
Waterford, added his testimony to the universal
sense of its inhabitants in favour of the present Peti-
tion. Many who had formerly opposed the claims of
the Catholics had now come forward to support them,
and the Petition had been signed by at least ninety-
nine out of every hundred.—The Petition was then
read, ordera to lie on the table, and to be printed.

DISCHARGS OF ILIA. °JUDY.
Sir ROBERT WILSON moved the Order of the
Day for bringing up Mr. Grady to the Bar, in order
to be discharged.--Agreed to.
The Order of the Day having been read, and Mr.
Grady introduced, the SPEAnR addressed him in
the following manner :
“ Thomas Grady, you have been sulky of writing and lead-
ing a letter, the contents of which were allies breach of the
privileges of this House, smiler the tag Waco yen Uwe been
committed to his blajesty's jell if Ilawiime. Now Petition
praying for your release has been sel!eined) and the terse iin
-which that Petition is tooveyed. ft
proses, and the -
was farther from
relieve me from a

which ion a
on the nature
Howe Is at •
and

the ietopie,—tt
orth.

mod appropriating to each its different sgere cf
eiluatiou, Is contrary to the acknowledged
usseeeeei
practice of Parliament. The delegation of sale
to examine and repo4t upon any paree'e;
rliarjee tritt, is the privilege of the House alone; bes"—i.
the present instance, It is attempted to, be asele4
by the Noble Lord, or at least the choice of
westisation is left to the arrangement of the Conte,
u.
tee itself, whereas Parliament had heretofore, eist
peculiar jealousy and precision, specifically del
ete
such a power to Committees, and refused to ats:re-
ledge or receive their reports whenever they 'Nem
ceeded the bounds specially prescribed to the wee
of the investigation confided to their laboers.
Noble Lord's Motion is so rr.ultiferiout in its now%
and embraced so many distinct and stearategrossa
of inquiry, that it is in vain to expect any sauseactes
result from the investigation he last night prep
'lt may, perhaps, reach the state of the gnole f,a I
never can comprise the state and condition of el 3
ferent classes of offenders, much less st:g re.
'sires or legislative enactments, to promote e.
formation of criminals, the correction of wee, s.
bits and their 'probable return.to society is free
object of all this inquiry. The labours of ei.'se.
oruttee to inquire into the state and descriptice
xaols, and the "best method of providing for the
formatioe as wilt as the safe custody of ereeEee
(foi so the Noble Lord's motion ran) could neveree
brace the case of those confined under seiszeste
death, but referred to those whose punishment tee
listed principally or altogether in impriconmere
thus the great cause tithe amendment of the. semi.
nal law of England was to skulk into the notice(
the Legislature incidentally, under favour of anecti.
-vocal word or indefinite phrase. How fee the doe
his motion, and that of which I have given nett,
differ? Beth are founded upon the admission tea
inquiry is become necessary : and' the Miele herd
professes he is desirous to render his motional erre
sive as my own so as ewes to embrace seceedery
nishments. There are, nevertheless, sufficient seeeze
of distinction in these different motions as to their cie
jects, which I shall be enabled to prove are ciistinrer
different; and to prove that I am not dispesed to fee
low a course of proceeding most eonven'ent:onie
object and purposes. I shall refer to the premiere
on the Journals of the House, by which it Wlll at.
pear, that several references of a similarly extree
nature, have been made to Committles in case like
the present. In the year 1750, a remarkable instance
occurred of similarly- extensive delegation of powe
to a Committee of that day, which was expressly ap-
pqinted to examine the state of the laws relating to
felony, and to report to the House oa the expe-
diency of repealing the said laws. Would any
one contend, that a delegation of such exten-
sive power was, as the Noble Lord hinted ha
night in speaking of my motion, an attack en the
jurisprudence of the land, or that the motion had ori-
ginated or been supported by men deficient in legis-
lative or political knowledge ? The names of Paean,
Pitt, afterwards Lord Chatham; Grant, Dudley, Ry-
der, and others, eqiedly well known for the sound-
ness of their principles and their legal knowledge,
were amongst the supporters of a motion ler a Com-
mittee with these extraordinary powers. A precedent
which had been thus established by men wheseta-
lents found no parallel in an age se defective in se-
natorial ability; ought not to be considered destimte
of authority. The Committee so appointed was vie
played for two Sessions' in the inquiry, and Frith
reported that it was expedient to change, in several
instances, the punishment of death for others named,
in their Report, which; it was their opinion, might
be substituted in their stead with benefietuthe public.
This was the first Committee which had stated the
dangerous and baneful consequences of the srstem of
the Poor Laws, and the Laws of Parish Settlements,
with the litigation arising from these sources; it was
even then known that pauperism and crime, 3$ in
our own days, walked side by side, and acquired
strength reciprocally from each other. The Com-
mittee particularly alluded to the neglected educa-
tion of the poor at that door, as productive of the
most alarming increase of crime.—(Hear, hear.)—
A BM was brought in pursuant to this recommenda-
tion, on the part of the Committee. Into the history
of its failure and rejection I shall not go further than
to state it was not opposed by Lord Hardwicke, or any
of the great Legal Authorities of that day. A smiler
extensive delegation of these powers had been per-
mitted by the House in the year 1770, When the
names of Meredith, Fox, Sir George Saville, and
others of the first information and talent in the Hone
appeared on that Committee. The question referred
to them was equally extensive as that proposed to the
former, and the labours of the Committee though
confined to only one branch of the investigatica now
proposed by the Noble Lord, nevertheless it lasted
two Sessions, and ended in a recommendation to abo-
lish eight different descriptions of capital pncisi
ment. The Bill founded on this resolution was also
lost in the House of Lords, where, it was some gra-
tification to think, it was not opposed by either of
those illustrious names, Lords Hardwicke or Camden.
I might standeen thesei precedents against what has
been last night urged by the Noble Lord, or ern
ripen the proof I have afforded, that the question, es
' subdivided lY him for the consideration of pets of a
Committee similarly subdivided, is contrary to the
usage of Parliament; but the difference between the
high political standing and official station of that No-
bleman gives him decisive advantages as to the im-
perative weight of authority, and renders it
neces-
sary I should make out my case for a Committee
upon stronger and more indisputable grounds—
The Noble Lord last night, it is true, stated, tha:ee
evil existed, but did not attempt to point out any Fee
bability of finding out by the intervention of des
Committee, a remedy for the evil so admitted '0
exist. He then overlooked, or, at least, did rot think
it necessary to point out specifically the defects ex:
isting in the system, so as to chalk out a line of ee•
ing for the Committee. Two things are necessanlj
expected to be pointed out to the House, in order to
induce it to enter into au inquiry of this laborious
ture—the existence of the evil, and the probable heft
of a remedy, since I contend the Noble Lord has at
made out a Parliamentary ground for the inquiry
proposes. I approach the hallowed institutloes e.
our ancestors with more circumspection and re
lance, and, therefore, feel myself bound to make ,:t3
a most satisfactore elm in 'nerve of the applicant:4
'I stow make to it, and shevethere exists a strong pr`''
ititbilitY of the diminution of Oat tvil, which all good

_ .......,.. ..., ..., ..........wawwwg impossible, at least likely to
a ikas . Pendia is onward. siir du" inset which it is- outlive the duration of any Parliament. To obviate
mass and tile 101.8112.1"Rirante wank trop 0" that "thhllli this Mconveniener, the Noble Lord, amongst Other
tardier from year Metric* &sato (mods amfrandllame,
ere me from a duo, virlilel% amoldealag Um ma miltetalim
_..admissions acid concessions, states, that it is his in-
ch To. kid, would 4ava lieso4rafel damka4 illietliOn •t 9 stmatteat the labour thus imposed upon
ha nature of lour Callacto . L addititlial .tzentntt liii tOyklibs thi Cointnittee itself into
um is at all times
privilege% as thed=4lllll rits.,ATaiie to toe aeconcigtotmd
peopl it memures lb !sivaristr sli tka mach mi. 4417 toblectict4 Om*, that this•PPLEticc
cat. mil nectogst is lour hark% ir sitidid. vi i af atodiricliag IC Imo we or throe parts

men must deeply deplore. And here,
. I shall not be told Tani a rash aud ape-
'pe, whose object, however laudable in other re-
must necessarily afford to the guilty mind the
impunity for offences hereafter to be corn-
in what was last night denominated by the
the golden age of crime.—(A laugh.)—l
the more anxious to guard against any mist*-
: on so important a subject, as it would
highest degree absurd to propose any thing
tat had been termed a new code of Criminal
to a country enjoying, under the present Ad-
of the laws, every blessing which ren-
lay happy and free.—(Hear, hear, hear.),
a proposition would be extravagant and ridicti:
b:u such is not mine. I would not even propose
lition altogether of the punishment of death for
When other means fail to deter, or when
• is no longer safely to be tolerated in so-
from the enormity of his offence, then un-
)tedly the law may justly deprive him of a life
' to the maintenance of good order. The
of discretion in the judicial, administration of
law' ay be said to be an evil, so may the Crimi-
Law itself; but if that discretion be reposed in
I.secative to prevent the infliction of an injustice
:,,dy an evil not foreseen. or provided against,
-ea it ray fairly be pronounced to be a good ; and
-hcold be the pride of the House to'restore to the
;a, and its true representation, the Judges on dr
Bench. that most endearing and splendid privilege qt
tie Throne—the dispensation of mercy! which it tin-
ktanately has been the object ofTecent times to rob
t of almost altogether. I am far from expecting, or
ere t wishing, to establish any thing like an universal
Fax. * ;pie to regulate punishment; my object is solely
tut of attaining practically beneficial results to so-
cety, so as to enable the laws to be enforced without
re;ar.ing the sympathies and outraging the feeling;
ti man towards his fellow•crcatures. Upon this prin-
ks!e, remission in the many, and punishment in the
cr cases would be the result ; whereas now, pu-
:inarnt was almost au. exception to the rule for
ue administration of the law—(llear, hear, hear!)
object is only to induce the Legislature to adopt
reles-of punishment different in their nature, and
Japted to the proportion of offences, which though
denominated by the same generic name, are as widely
:cart from each other in degree of enormity as of-
taces of al altogether different class : such a classi.,
i.ation of crime, as would render all good and
so-thy men the voluntary defenders and zealous
i..pporters of the laws. Much consolation must ac-
oze to the country at large from the assurances given
by the Noble Lord, that whatever unfavourable as-
pect the offences against property had assumed, the
aacient and national character had not suffered from
tie comparative frequency of crimes of a higher m-
ute, and more immediately levelled against she
Face of society—(Hear, hear).—l am as willing as
the Noble Lord to suppose this has arisen from the
ereporaty distresses of the times, and should be
:;try that any thing but ocular proof convinced me
ts the contrary. My situation and that of the Noble
Lord in this respect is singular and even whimsical.
Soree of those causes which he thinks temporary, I
am disposed to.thiuk permanent ; and some which I
t h 1 permanent, he treats as if they were temporary.
had hoped the prosecutions on the commission
cf forgery would have ceased with- the resumption
gush-payments. The Noble Lord leads us to ex-
pect no thing. The progressive increase of the
manufactures of the country was last night the sub-
?:t cf ceadolement on the part of the Noble Lord.
i caraot help wishing these evidences of our wealth
nay be perpetual. Another subject of his condole.
mat was the increasing population of the country ;
et this subject much misrepresentation has taken
p.ace. The population of London, for instance;
trough amazingly increased, has by no means rela-
tve:y increased since the year 1700. The great
causes of the increase of crime arose, I imagine, from
mistakes d errors in the policy of our enactments.
Me Ga:ne Laws, the laws against contraband trade,
aad smugglers, have, by their severity, tended much
to increase the number of victims to offended justice.
It is true, the Right Honourable Gentleman says,
no revenue can be spared, yet many of the pro-
tecting duties and drawbacks, which afford no re-
venue, may be lopped off: both create crime. Smug-
Oers and poachers are reciprocal' aids to one another.
;,t may be impossible at once to change the system
orcommercial law in such a country as Great Bri-
tain, but it does look suspicious, that in the fourth
year of peace, nothipg has yet been attempted, with
a view to change a system of revenue, the enforce.
fluent of which not unfrequently ended in the corn.
Fission of violent assaults, outrages, and atrocities.
It is worthy of remark, the great increase of crime,
as exhibited by the papers before the House, arrived
at its acme in 1808; from this standard it sometimes
varied, but never decreased since; and this was the
era of the enormous issue of Bank-notes, which was
most ably proved by an anonymous writer, whose
ii_towledge of the subject, in a letter written to the
Right Honourable Robert Peel, appears to have been
only equalled by his classical and general jaimma-
lice. This period, so fatal to the morals of the
reentry, was remarkable as an epoch in which the
note.fer one ponpd sterling ft.* in value to fourteen-
nalimgs, and the commonest labourer found the se-
cret agency of some malignant but occult demon had
robbed him of one-third of the means to support his
1,.,"ni1Y, without his knowing how it happened.—'
pr,,etice of the law for the last century had
been completely at variance with the letter of it.
And so extraordinary was the decrease of convictions
tad executions, upon the average of later years, that
ia
London and Westminster, out of two hundred ca-
pital felonies there have been convictions and execu-
tiogs upoo not more than forty-five, leaving the re-
maining 155 a dead letter upon the statute book.—
Per ;he
last thirteen years, in England and Wales,
te27allY, there have been convictions upon not
more elan t4irty capital felonies out of the before-
mcetioned ‘2,20. So that out of 170 capital offences,
ac: elle conviction has taken place during the space
gi
"-CCII years. The enormous growth of these highly
penal statutes has, it is to be regretted, occurred during
"e best period of our history, since the year 1614
4'7; other words since the country has had a Parlia-
y Government. Since which it has been the
rl3'tion of man, of otherwise little note, at all events
to lire created a capital offence
is said e statute, as Mr.
to nave been arrested by a Mornher on
44:;=Fehls to le..ve the House on a division, witl) the

tent with justice, indulges
that the necessity for capital punishment may, by
progress of religion and good morals, ultimately el.,
This, Sir, is a hope with which good men have
various times consoled but
be the opinion respect
phy or the hopes of
of men who neither
nor criminals to our
taped from an
(Hear, hear.}—l own
to me adapted
fuctoost to

persuasive assurance, the subject would not detainlttrehg the abo titian of the African Slave Trade—a
him a motnent, as it was only for passing an Act, body * whose. practice wants only to become general
inflicting the penalty of death without benefit of In order to render the Infliction of capital punish -
'clergy—(A laugh.) , enactments • have since,` meut altogether unnecessary."— (Hear, hear,) The
however, btu motet-lair corrected, if not altogether Honourable Member sat down amidst cheers from
rendered obsolete by the increased humanity of the both sides of the House.
age in which we live. Nothing can be adduced Ripe- After. the motion had been read from the Chair,
nor in authority to the dictums of that most argu- Lord CASTLEREAGH began by acknowledging
tneneative, ingenious, and sound lawyer (Sir William his sense of the very able and candid manner in which.
Grant), who said, in one instance, that the law and the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had treated
the practice are diametrically at variance; that of this important subject. He had discussed the sub.
the two, the practice was right; and, therefore, as ject in that manner which was to be expected from
the practice could not safely be wound up to the law, his general talents and legal habits ; and withal had
the law ought to be brought down to the practice.— handled it with a temperance and moderation dewy.
A general conspiracy had therefore been formed by ing of the highest priuse—(Hear, hear, hear). The
prosecutor, Jury, and Judge, that the law should view which the Honourable And Learned gentleman
not take its ordinary course, If such• then be the had taken of the subject, did not differ from his own
case, as adititted by the highest authority, why in that degree which might be expected from the oir-
should not the Legislature prevent these cruel and in- cumstance of his opposing the motion now before the
human acts remaining any longer in existence, as House. One of the chief grounds on which he must
proofs of its folly and fatuity ? From the 'date of oppose that motion was, that he felt it might be con-
Lord Thurlow and Lord Rosslyn's ascent to the chief sidered as a reproach on the system of our Criminal
magistracy, executions had decreased to one-half the Law as too sanguinary, and afford an argument
former number, from thence to one-third, one-eighth, against the severity of that law as it stood on the
and even to one-eleventh. In justice to the question, Statute.book. But the Honourable and Learned
I must protest against the mode which the Noble Gentleman had distinctly stated that he did not intend
Lord has taken for ascertaining the supposed decrease to propose any new Criminal Code—that he had no
of executions for felony. It is not fair to take the intention of taking away entirely the punishment of
principal felonies, and, compounding them with the death. He had been equally distinct in disclaiming
lesser, present a flattering aggregate of the unfre- any intention of withdrawing from the Judges and
quency of the number of executions, when almost the Crown the prerogative of pardon or of mitigation
all those executions were well known to have taken of punishment. The general question involved in
place under eight or nine Statutes for principal felo- this discussion was as to the reformation and regula-
nies, in which cases there was rarely a possible chance ;ion of those laws imposing the punishment cf death,
of escape ; such as the offences of murder, shooting and the particular question now for decision was,
and stabbing, arson, highway robbery, burglary, what species of proceeding the House should adopt
and piracy. The Black Act, and other Frightful to arrive at that wise, and salutary conclusion ?
enormities in legislation, have but too successfully He must admit that the Honourable and Learned
operated, both at home and abroad, to designate Gentleman in support of his proposal had quoted
out criminal code as most inhuman and sanguinary. two precedents of unquestionable authority. Yet he
Many instances have occurred where the very persons would venture on an argument from these very pre-
whose property was sought to be protected, had sue, cedents, to prove that the course proposed by this
cessfully applied to Parliament to repeal the Penal motion was not now advisable. He would assert
Statutes which protected themselves and their proper- that the experience of those very precedents was
ties, as in the cases of the owners of bleach-grounds, against the motion. As to the first precedent quoted,
bankers, and others. To quote again the great per- that of 1750, the authority of this precedent was un-
son whom I have already quoted, I agree with Sir questionable. But what did it prove as to that part
William Grant, that the due execution of the Crimi- of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's argu-
nal Law is a part of the moral education of mankind, ment which went 'to support his motion against the
but I agree with him alio in thinking that this takes course which he (Lord Castlereagh) had pursued?
place only when the punishment 'coincides with the Against the latter course the Honourable and Learned
general opinion that it is proportioned to the offence. Gentleman had contended that it would occupy too
If, however, we look to the opinions delivered by the much time, and could not be concluded in one Ses-
greatest men whom this country has produced from sion. But the old precedent shewed that the inquiry
the time of Sir William Blackstone down to the pre- then instituted had occupied two Sessions. And af-
sent day, we shall find that their opinion has been ter having occupied two Sessions, what was the re-
that the Criminal Law of this country is at variance salt ? A Bill had been introduced, which passed
with public feeling on the subject.— (Hear, hear.)— through the House. The Honourable and Learned
Such it will be found was the opinion of those great Gentleman had not stated that the end was, this Bill
men Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt, and Lord Grenville, who, was thrown out in the House of Lords. His princi-
in a former Session of Parliament, delivered as'able pal objection to the project now proposed by the Ho-
and eloquent a speech on this subject, as I ever re- nourable and Learned Gentleman, wa's, that it took
member to have heard—(hear, hear). ff it is not, I an abstract instead of a practical view of the ques-
ad mit a proof of error that an abstract and speculation. From the precedent of 1770, the Honourable
tive opinion should for a short time be at variance and Learned Gentleman had not contended that any
with popular clamour, but that the systetn'of Crimi- practical benefit had resulted. In short, if he had
nal Law should in such a country as Great Britain sought for precedents to •be avoided, and not to be
be at variance with the general feeling of the wisest imitated, none could have been found more appro-
and best members of the community during a series They
for that purpose than those of 1750 and 1770.
of years, certainly does appear to me a proof that They were precedents which did not lead to any prat.
there is something in the system viten, wrong. k tical conclusion. He could not go along with the
is from this view of the subject principally,, that tionourable and Learned Member in thinking that
I have offered myself to the House. It is not my. the inference could be fairly drawn, that the present
wish to oppose the Civil Laivs of the country, but state of the law tended to encourage offences. The
to promote them: It is in order to render the exe- late Sir Samuel Romilly, whose efforts to mitigate
cteion of the laws easy, that I implore the attention the rigour of the law had been so conspicuous, had
of the House to the proposed amendment of them.— succeeded in having his Bill passed into an Act to
So notorious is the practice of undervaluing property -alter the punishment of stealing from' the person to
by Juries; in order to evade the severe penalties of transportation instead of death. What had been the
the law, that Sir William Blackstone, in his classical effect of that alteration? According to the position
Work, calls the practice a pious perjury—(Hear, of the Honourable and Learned Member, the effect
hear!) Should any statesman endeas our to postpone should have been to diminish the number of such of-
the time of that reform which is so desirable in the fences. But the fact was, that they had increased
Criminal Laws of this country,' it may happen that It appeared from the returns, that the number of
he will have cause to rue the consequence. I have persons tried for thatipffence since passing the Act
now nearly done; but before I sit down, I wish to' had been:—ln 1810, 136; in 1811, 194; in 1812,
add one word more, with respect to the petitions 924; in 1813, 272; in 1814, 311; in 1815, 277; in
which have been presented on this subject. 1 believe, 124 6, 4021 in 1817, 509; in 1818, 531. So that
Sir, that the more the names of the petitioners are they had gradually increased to boar or five times the
examined, the more will it be found that they are of amount at the time when the Act was passed for mi-
the most respectable description. if the subject con- tigating the punishment. The, proportion of convic-
cerning which these petitions have been presented re- tions in these years shewed the same increase, They
ferred merely to a matter of individual suffering, it were:-64, 83, 88, 133, 138, 197, 234, 257, 262.•
might be desirable that the names of the petitioners. The argument therefore that the operation of laws
should be very numerous; but on a subject of this which denounced the heaviest punishment was to in-
general nature, I conceive that the authority and crease the crime they were intended to prevent, was
character of the petitioners should be looked to, ra- not founded on fact. But then the Hononrable and
ther than theif extensive numbers—(Hear, hear,)— Learned Gentleman asked why the consideration of
With respect to the Petition from the City, who are the laws mentioned in his motion should be joined to,
the Petitioners? They are the Magistrates ane Ju- an inquiry into the state of prisons? To this he
Tors of a Court in which capital punishment exists to must reply, that.there was every reason for conjoin-
areater extent unfortunately than perhaps in any ing the inquiries. Out of 13,000 persons confined in
other one in the world. To their experience, there- the gaols throughout the kingdom, 10,000 were com-
' fore, on the subject of Criminal. Law, considerable mitted for offences under the very laws to which the
importance sliould be attached ; but still further, it motion related—(Hear, hear J.—The Honourable and
is to be considered that they are peculiarly liable to Learned Gentleman had said that there were no less
the depredations against which the law provides, and than 200 capital felonies imposed by laws which
may therefore reasonably be supposed as attached to could not now be enforced. For his own part he
the system by which their property is protected, mm'' had no conception there were so many. It must be
less that system has been proved by experience to be considered those statutes which had been described
at variance with the principles oft justice, and eves 'as denouncing death for .fantastic offences, were
with the objects which it professes to attain. I says obsolete. Whether they were repealed a little sooner .
Sir, that this may be reasonably supposed, for it is ' or a little later, or at all, was of no consequence,
'the nature of man generally to be favourable to those tseeing they had become a dead letter—(Hear, hear)..
means by which his wishes ate most speedily and ,It was contended that. the Committee could not insJ
effectually secured. The authority of the Citizens !quire into both subjects at the same moment.-1
of London, therefore, on this subject, apparently in i That was true. But they could inquire into both 0
opposition to their own interests, must be considered subjects before they made up their Report.—.e
of the highest importance.—(Hear, hear, hear).—r It was desirable that it should be as speedy as possi-
With respect to the Petition from the Society 'of ble, and for that purpose nothing could he more ad-,
Friends, commonly called Quakers, it may be necess [viable than that both subjects should be referred to
nary for me to say, a few words. This Petition praya ; the same Committee. Nothing could be snore inju-.
for such a change of the Criminal Law as is conic. rime with a view to the great object as to. which.
• ' and it also -in some hopes' they seem all than-that the subject should be
eras*
at

. , agreed, ______
disposed through a variety of hands who must ne-
`ceisirily take It *divided and narrow view of' it. It
was - 'of hi' that he had not, submktod
- ' - - ' Com:lli:tee.

, .
den= should succeed In persitadiot the Hat3e 41
separate the inquiries, he could only say, that in his
opinion it would be more convenient that they shonl4
be combined. He concluded by Moving the previous
question. •
Mr. BUXTON said, that on a former occasion he
had taken an opportunity of stating tliereason which;
in his view, ought to prevent the House from entrust-
ing the enquiry proposed by the present motion:to a
Committee, which was already tasked to an enquiry
into six subjects, namely-1. The state of all the Pril,
sons in England, Scotland, and Ireland-2. Thestna-
nagement of Prisoners in all those Prisons-3, The
Police of the -bole Kingdom-4, Transportation--
,5. The Hulks ; and 6. The state of a Colony at the
Antipodes. The Noble Lord thought we ought to
consider the question from cause to consequence front
beginning to end. This however would be inipossi:
ble. If it should be said that the cause of the incrense•
'of crime wai the want of religious 'education, the
principle of the Noble Lord would be to refer that
subject to his ComMittee, and say that he thought
:the subject Of Religious Education a very fit one
for the consideration of the Committee—(hear.)—
The Honourable Member then went oe to prove:
Ist. That the severity of the Criminal-Law, as it how
stood, was an innovation of the old system, in which
he followed principally 'the argument and instances
of Sir James Mackintosh.-2clly. That the severity
was against National Justice,-3cily. That it was im-
politic, and had raised up a power in the State which
abrogated the law—namely, public opinion ; that all
classes of those employed in the administration of
justice combined to prevent the execution of the law.
Re illustrated these positions by a variety of cases,
selected with much ingenuity, and stated with great
effect—lt was a melancholy fact, said the Honour-
able Member, that there were persons living in this
country at whose birth the Criminal Code contained
not more than 60 capital offences, and who had
therefore lived to see that number quadrupled: Acts
;had been passed making offences capital by the donee
and by the score. The most trifling and the most
atrocious crimes—murder and indiscretion—had been
bundled together (he could use no other term) in the
same enactment. He held in his hand 17 Acts of
this description. In one it was made a capital effence
maliCiously to shoot at a man—in another to shoot a
rabbit !—(hear, hear.) —ln one it was made a capital
offence to set fire to a house, in another to cut down
the head of a fishpond !—(hear, hear.)—Crimes, as
totally different in their nature as day and night,
were subjected to the same sad punishment of death.
This was not the wisdom of our ancestors—it was
the wisdom,of our own times. It was a strung pre-
sumption—the thing did not admit of proof—that
the great increase of crimes in the present day was
owing to'our present Penal Code being, first, at va-
riance with the old law of England ; and 2dly, at
equal variance with the principles of natural justice,
The Honourable Member then stated the eperatien
which the confinement together of numbers had pa
the moral feelings of criminals. It would be curious
to learn the calculation:s which those adventurers
formed in the progress of crime. They encouraged
each other by the following do,ctrine of chances
'Tis 5 to 1 (after the commission of a crime) you are
not charged—'tis ,50 tp 1 you are Oot imprisoned—
'tis 100 to 1 you ate
,not.convicted—'tis 500 to
are not capitally convicted—'tis 1000 to Iyon are
not executed! Here they appeared not only as a
gang of thieves or pickpockets,. but as a gang of
gainblear—spotting not only with the property of
others, but with their own existence. Thus the opera.
tions of our Criminal Liw become a sort of inverted
lottery, if he might tie allowed the expression...-.
As to the effect of an execution, it made no impres-
sion on those hardened criminals. It was next to
nothing. towards the amendment of their morals.
They termed it their harvest—for while the eyes of
the spectator were fixed upon the victim above, their
hands were pilfering his pockets below ! A Lady
(Mrs. Fry) whom an Ilonourable Gentleman had
justly described as both the glory and the oppro-
brium of the country,--(Hear), and of whose bene-
volent exertions he could speak with sincerify:aeere
he not proud of being her relative—at the same
time that he knew, that what she feared most was
a publicity of her good deeds—had entered on her be-
nevolent course, without having formed any previous
opinion as to the question of our capital punishments.
She was led, however, to the conviction of their total
inefficacy, in consequence of what she tvitnessed :a
her more immediate acquaintance with the situation
and conduct of the sufferers, She uniformly found,
that when an offender suffered the punishment of
death, the geeeral impression amongst the surviving
associates was,. that he went to heaven. They con-
cluded that the deprivation of life, under such cir-
cumstances, pardoned all previous crimes; and thus
the execution of the law, in place of reforming by its
example, hardened aid corrupted those who might be
supposed to feel the effects which such examples were
presumed to produce. 'For instance, a boy some time
ago was executed for snatching a watchsat a funeral.
'1 wo Gentlemen who wished to ascertain whether any
circumstances could be found favourable to applica-
tion for his pardon, had actually visited the gang of
thieves to which he beloneed. They found them en-
gaged in gambling,,drinlising, and swearing—(llear,
pear).—They repeated their •visit at a future day,
and again found them engaged in the same course of
debauchery and crime, The result was, that the
boy was executed, and within a short period after
the execution, thirteen of that gang were taken up
for various crimes—(Hear, heari,--There was ano-
ther instance in the recollection of the Members of
.that House. He alluded to the execution of a young
man for forgery (the case of Weller), over whose
breathless: body, when delivered to his friends, the
.rolice Officers found his associates actually engaged
loathing to each other forged Notes—(Hear, hear).
should not trouble the House longer ; but
be contended that the House must feel that some-
Awes must be done—the question could not re.
Inain as it at present stood, He had endeavour-
ed. to give Ins opinion, not on any theoretical
view, Alt as founded, on the evidence of
_facts.-
- • clashes •
found

to sec
insectuity.

t"

i I+W •
No am,
rctitioncrs

nC rcercifu
ir,ve, I -du
dor, whc
nets, must
Cpe of imp
;stud, in %v.
;„bie Lord
die MON
IsentatiOrt
i 3 the big
i.e. %%hat h,
11, to a c
• istruzion
, • society
.;cb a Prop'
bat sue
*,t abolition
L. offender
• , v, from
bebtedly
• • ited to
cise of d
• t e law 'may
01 Law itse
Ge Ksecutir
e remedy a
• 0n it way
• !should be
Crown, and
Bench, that
rite Throne-
ktunately 1
t of almost
can wishing
pr;nciple to
tut of atta
e.ety, so as 1
Tiering th
el man tow:
:emis
fWCT cases
:tenant w
e adminis
t',.y object
nodes of pi
Japted to I
oenominate
;.art from
;:aces of al
i.asion of
sc,rthy me
i..pport,cll
tize to the
by the Nol
pect the off
aicient and
ine compar
tare, and
Face of so
he Noble ]
temporary
:511'y that ;
n the conti
Lord in thi
Some of tl
ara dispost
C.r.l: perm
•-•I had ho
cf forgery •
cash-Pal
pect no s:c
roanufactu
'sett cf cot
cannot
may be pe
r.tat WAS
CI this si
TI
tllough an
ttvely inc
causes of
mistakes
The Ga:n;
aid smug
to increa,l
It is true
no revert
tecting d
venue, ma
Oers and
tray be
Of COIIIMO
taro, but
Tear of p;
a view to
roent of
mission o
It is wort
as exhibit
at its aca
varied, II
era of th
most ahl
imowled
Right
only equ
tier. 'll
country,
note for
shiliino s,
cret alter
robbed
.:,oe pr.
been cc!
And so
;lad exec
is Lond
Pital fcl
bogs up
maittiq
Fe: ;he
tea:ral
ILO%
MCZiier
eIIC
eith;:te
peaal St
best
o t 1 of
mencre.
to 'aare
kzrite
4.tomp!

a ope wit which good men ave at was complained of him tisat he had not. submkted ed w give pi
s consoled themselves ; but whatever may • any formed plan to be submitted to the Commk.tee• view/ bit as .1
on respecting the speculations of phPoso. But all that he wished was to put the matter „in train. „Even. those cla
:lopes of religion. I did trust that a body
•., Lie dicittlat bold out that he had any plan ready for manufacturers.
neither send pauper's to our workhouses •.reratintsg—thispart DI. the Law. The. House badness for instance the
Is to our prisons, would have at leOt 6. to choose betweso the two courses proposed. He were framed to
an attempt to ridicult. or ceaiute tivisii.; the teasonelorthei proposed by Musa Be wits insecurity
.)—I own that such i body did not setil'' ' therefor* atet4lhb. motioit- of the, kluswerable don proved'ho
31
ted for ricEcule—* body which ass./ho' itteepgq-Lll4oolloi. bp frotoring the previous country. No I
buns fOrstot knitibi ptott_st!twillsa; ip raseagii-111441 lisillesselestali sat Leisset tles. than these roi
..

es of the ccuptnunity, cunt us.the
ound.by expeticlee that The
afrecting blotching grouucistolfish
ecure property, contributed 4rictly
The Petition from the City:o'l4n.
the question was sousiderest kyle
raucous
tlodbbeo
isucrposea7d
itysip,l7l4e4