Star.
London, England, 1819-06-12 00:00:00

POOR ItATES.

Mr. STURGES BOURNE moved the Order of the
Day for the third reading of the Poor Rates Misap-
plication Bill ; and on the question beiag put that the
Bill be read a third time,

Mr. PRIMROSE opposed the measure. It tended,
in his mind, to take from the wages of labour a part
of the sum raised by the Poor Rates, and that for the
purpose of supporting the children of those who were
not capable of doing it by their own exertions. It
was not intended by the 43d of Elizabeth, that chil-
dren incapable of work should receive parochial aid.
That Act made provision only for men who could
not procere work, for the lame, the blind, and the
aged who were incapable of labour. The Bill, in his
mind, would tcnd to abrogate the laws of nature, and
prevent parents from making that provision for their
offspring which they might otherwise be disposed to,
do. He did not go the whole length of Mr. Mal-
thus's principle, entirely to abrogate the Poor Laws,
but they admitted of considerable improvement. This
measure would have the effect of placing the worst !
part of the people in the best situation. It would
give them an advantage over those who were dis-
posed to labour for the support of their family, and
to keep their children from the workhouse. It would
be better to open the way to a gradual rise cf wages,
which would enable the labourer to keep his children.;
without the aid of the parish, than to continue the
present allowance, or to adopt the principle of this
Bill. On these grounds he should propose, that it be
read a third time that day three mouths.
Mr. PETER MOORE took this opportunity of
objecting to the Bill. The Right Honourable Gen-
! tleman s proposition to alter the rate of allowance,
by withdrawing from their parents the children for
whose support it was at present partly made, was one',
from which he must dissent, when he knew that in
the city which he had the honour to represent a large
portion of the poor were working sixteen hours every
day, or ninety-six hours in the week, for a pittance
not sufficient to keep soul and body together; five
farthings they earned for four hours' labour—(Dear).
The 53d of the King had virtually repealed all the
beneficial enactments of the 43d of Elizabeth. He
hoped sincerely, nova ithstanding that he must concur
in the objections of his Honourable Friend, that the
Right honourable Gentleman would not, however,
desert this cause, but resort to other means for effect.
ing the good which lie intended.
Mr. STURGES BOURNE lamented as much as
the Honourable Member (Mr. Primrose), the dis.
tressed state of society. To remove many grievances
he hoped the present Bill would prove beneficial.
With regard to the proposition in favour of tbe chil-
dren of paupers, he begged leave to differ from the
Honourable Member. The money, in most instances,

122 a been misapplied by proSigate parents. By the
adoption of this clause, he was cenvinced those appli-
cations would be greatly narrowed. The Bill was
not of a compulsory nature. It was left to the op-
tion of the parish to adopt its regulations or not. Its 11
operations were so far commendable. that with educa-
tion they combined moral instruction with habits of
industry. They also taught the youth so circum-
stanced not to he contented with his hovel, but to
elevate his mind to objects of a higher order—to
teach him to look forward, by a virtuous exertion, to
the comforts and happiness of society. He admitted
that the relief afforded was in many instances " most
niggardly, barely affording the means of keeping
body and soul together"—( Hear, hear). lie did not
think that this or any other regulation would at once
lcure the evil ; but, without indicating the partiality
of a parent for the Bill (which had certainly (uigi-
nated with him), he was fully persuaded it would be
very beneficial to the community, and greatly ame-
liorate the state of the poor.
Lord MILTON objected to the Bill as tending to
legalize the evil of which the House and the country
complained. Until the rate of labourers' wages had
increased, he did not think that any measure like
the present could produce any good. He therefo:c
should support the amendment.
Sir J. SEBRIGEIT supported the Bill, as tending'
to introduce the blessings of good education among
the children of the poor.
Mr. PHILLIPS was aware of the existence of
many evils which the Bill would not temove. It af-
futded a stimulus to population, for all the poor ss ould
become fatheri and mothers, when their children
would be supported. Under these impressions lie felt
it his duty to support the amendment.
Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that the present Bill
reminded him of similar measures which had been
attempted in France before the Revolution, and al-c
in Austria by Joseph 11. which, instead of producing
great benefit to these countries, caused much evil to
spread, fiom the general discontent felt on their
account.

Mr. BRAND said, that he felt confident, when he
originally proposed this measure, no such conse-
quences would arise as had been alleged to the Bill.
The pressure of the evils complained of, required
some specific measure for their removal, and he
thought the present Bill would have a good effect,
and he was convinced that the labourer ought to be
supported rather because be performed labour, than
because he had many children. It was well :•eiewn,
and in the agricultural districts particalariy, that the
labourers declined to exert themselves, because they
derived more benefit from their parishes than from
their labour. The children were not to be sent to the
miserable and odious places, such as the workhouses
afforded, but to receptacles, where comfort and order
would prevail, according to the clauses of the Bill.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH felt himself bound
to thank the Right Honourable Gentleman for the
care he had taken in bringing in this Bill. Notwith-
standing that all agreed in considering that the evils
produced by the Poor Laws were the greatest in the
internal economy of the country, the difficulty was
great to provide an effective legislative enactment.
The Poor Laws were interwoven with the interests of
many individuals, and no measure could therefore
be proposed which would not clash with the interests
of some. The interests of the poor and of the live
bouring classes of the community, who, in point of
fact, constituted the great mass of society, were of
importance to all. The misery felt by them could
not be passed over without a neglect of the most mo-
mentous duties. Every measure which could be pro-
posed, ought, in his opinion, to be regulated by two
tests; first, that it led towards establishing matters on
their original safe footing; and, secondly, that it
did so with the least possible inconvenience (Hear.)
The mischief, however, which he felt from this Bill
was, it would, under the semblance of relieving the
country from the pressure of the Poor Laws, eqab-
lish another system equally if not more oppressive.
The labouring pauper, it was true, would be :eiieved
from the immediate expense of suppr,rting and edu-
cating his children, and whatever he earned would
be for the maintenance of himself and his wife, so
that he would be precluded the necessity as well as
excluded from any false pretence of applying for pa-
rish relief. But then the expense saved to the parish
in ore way would be more than exceeded in another.
It would ba like establishing a system of Foundling
Hospitals throughout all the polishes in the kingdom,
and imposing a permanent charge on the country of
which no 111:01 could see the end. It would have the
tendency amongst employers of lowering wages to
their labourers to the lowest minimum, scarcely ade-
quate to the existence of the labourer. But after all
what was to become of those children of the poor
after they were educated to maturity ? were they to
be turned loose in the world, with notions above the,
humble lot of their parents, to find livelihood as well
as they could, or what means was to be established
to find them employgrent He should dread the
consequences, under the conviction that such a sys-
tem would be far from ameliorating the lot of those
poor children, and still further from correcting the
rnichiefs of the Poor Laws. In all events if the House
should adopt the Bill, he should, at the request of a
most respectable body of Dissenters, have ibo propose
a clause for exempting persons of that description
from having their children taken from under their
care, and placed in schools where they would be edu-
cated in religious opinions opposite to the conscien-
tious scruples of their parents on that head.
Colonel WOOD explained that the Schools would
be Schools of industry, where the children would be
kept and instructed in the day, but would be allowed
to return to their parents at night. The objection of
the Dissenters was therefore unfounded.
Mr. T. COURTENAY also defended the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Alderman WOOD and
Mr. CURWEN, the House divided—

For the Amend:tient

-4(

Against it

69

litaority against the Amendment - —23
On the re-admission of strangers,
Sir J. MACK INTOSII was proposing a Clause to exclude
the Children of Dissenters from the operation of the Bill.
Mr. S. BOURNE objected to the Clause, and the question
being put, it was negatived.
Mr. Alderman WOOD proposed a Clause, which went to
s•zempt the children of Jewish parents from the operation of the
Clause respecting religious worship. The motion w.ts negatived.
The Bill was read a third time and passed.
A new Writ was ordered for the Borough of Dorchester, to
elect a Burgess in the Loom of Sir S. Shepherd, who since his
election, had accepted the office of Chief Baron of Scotland.
Six C. UONCK at for an Address to the Prince Regent,

'pr syht his Rays} Washarts to sive tlirecaoas di 2 •r( 2:r
eluded between RUSSIT. and Torten ea March ISO%
the Ciaalpine Itepuhlir, be laid before the House.
Lord CASTLEREA diu no: our motor, bit
doubted whether the information calicu fur could h.
' The motion was then agreed to.
The Hour. then went il.to a tor:matte on the Grir.p
Election Bribery Bill, in which Air. W. Niftier,
Grampound, wat examined.

The House then resumed, and the Repo. t received, ani or-
dered to be printed.
The Report of. the Charitable Fontlarions' B i, ..
The other Orders of the Day were tt.en iit
House adjourned at Oat o'Clock this Morning.

Til E F4\ EN INC- STAR

LONDON.

SATURDAY, AINE 12, 1.".9.

I'flP. r(itiO~.

? rcrd tn.

ate tat

PRICE OF -roc K s This DA'. AT ON".
Bank !Stock '219

3 per Cent. ILJuced tiV. 68; eai
3 per Cent. Consols shut
31 :)er ( ent. 761 I ,er Cent. Mi.!! 8 7 ssi
5 per Cent. Navy shut

ll:Lik lAmg Annuities 171 IS 1-16
Irish S I,er C,:ntc. 101

India Solck shut—lndia Bond-. 6 (hr.
Exchequer Uili. r2d.) 3 pre. par
Omnium 1 0 1 discount
Consols for Acct. 6;-.lil 69. 6:1.

Yesterday afternoon and thi, morning, the trio!;
unfavourable reports wete circulated v. it!; a VICW to
depress the Stocks ; for a time they had the de 'led
cifect, as Consols left off yesterday at 6S;, and thr.
nium 1,11 discount, but the Contract,,r
his deposit of 10 per Cent. on the atth,unt
Loan he holds, and the Subscribe: s rti
two-thirds of their deposits by Twelve o'Clo ck. tLt
deception was discoved, and Consul, immediately
rose to 69, and Ormium to Coktractcr
then offered to advance any suits the House wa;:ted
at 4 pet Cent.

The reports respecting South American :Adis
tinge as contradietr,ty as ever, :Ow ays taking the lit-
veur cf !he ul.ant,el whence t::ey are derived. (Le
thing however is obvious; that :he Insurgent caul
maintains its ground, a:A the total of all the st.c.
cesses obtained at different periods since the cur-
' mencement of the Revolution, amounts only tr, th;s—
the Royalk armies have not yet been e;
stroyed, or expelled from S. aith America. sub-
• joined accounts, received yesterday, present the late?.
• information from that quarter. The letter from Ila-
vannah is 'deserving of particular attention, as it
serves in some degree to corroborate a previous re-
mr.ur, that the island of Cuba was about to be, or
was already ceded by Spain to Great Britain. Should
this be the fact, it will, in some measure, accoin.: for
the placid countenance with which the cession (.Ithe
Floridas to the United States has been beheld he our
Government. One thing is obvious:—this country
has much higher claims upon Spain than the United
States could possibly set up. Look at the Peninsular
war; look at the immense debts due to our met chants;
and if the spoliation of war is to be set up as a
ground for compensation (which was one set up Ey
the United States), look at the part Spain acted is
the war between Great Britain and her American
Colonies ; and look even at the Manilla ransom, which
yet remains unpaid. If forbearance is to be paid for
by Spain, how great are our claims? how soon could
Great Britain have effected the entire emancipatkin of
South America ?—ln one word, in this reported ces-
sion of Cuba we see a reason why no objection gas
made to the cession of the Floridas, and also an intel-
ligible reason for Ministers bringing forward the
Foreign Enlistment Bill ; respecting the policy cf
which it was difficult to satisfy any person whatever
not in the secrets of the Government.

If Ministers have actually obtained Cuba, they
deserve, and they will obtain much credit, for their
foresight. Ii they have not, the Americans will clr
tain the entire command of the Gulph Stream, arA
we shall, 'ere long, be entirely shut out from the
Gulp!' of Mexico. To Britain the island of Cala
would probe an invaluable possession.