Star.
London, England, 1817-08-22 00:00:00

rower of taking away the children from the cumin-
tend.thee of the parents, for the purpose of destroying
tut m when th• hought it "e •isary. Here then
weir • ticcessive proofs that the principle of popul .lion
WAS!, It by the advocates of the sync.' of perfectibi-
lity, as the difficulty against which they had to con-
tend. Yet this was the principle which, in this en-
;it,htened period (4 the world, Mr. Owen denied,
egh Dr. Adam Smith had established almost as
aroma that from the progren of population, when
ti:, supply of labour exceeded the demand, wage;
• ul.l be low, and the labouring classes would suffer;
thrugh Malthus had convinced every sound mind,
that: men wbuld not only suffer, but that, unless
entree:acted by preventive checks, the misery of al
red.,' .tant population must lead to demaralization
rind crime. Mr. Owen had, in his address that day,
7t:tributed the increase of the existing distress to the
introduction of mechanism—a new power, as he was
rlease., to c ill it, introduced in recent times for the
abti •gment of human labour. hi this assertion he
wis :itstorically wrong ; the very first machine by
which the earth was turned up was a mechanical in-
troduciiim to abridge human labour. And in regard
VI the principle, as all the produce of industry re-
selvt:d i IX into the two branches of labour and
profit, it was erroneous to contend that misery was
incre ised by the introduction of machinery. To the
part expend:Al in wages no such Jes7ription was ap-
plicahle ; and when it was cousideied, that the profit
went t' oicrcase the power of the capitalist, and to
enlarge the sphere of employment, it was impossible
to acc.cl:! to the inference that Mr. Owen bad en-
de.ivinued ta assume. tie (Major Tomos) felt
st ash:tined, in this enlightened metropo to
get ep in defence of principles, now for the first time
walitart the appearance of argument, and,
w!iicri were o.ceived without hesitation by the most
intelligent men in every part of the civilised world.
It V;111 at Lust to have been expected, that as Mr.
o.ven bad arrayed himself against those principles,
prticularly that of the geometrical progression of
Topulation, he would have redeemed his pledge, and
refuted it by argument. His not having that day
teiti led his pledge, rendered it his duty to propose
as an Amendutent—" That the Meeting do adjourn
to January next, in order to afford time to Mr.
Owen to bring forward his refutation of that acknow-
ledged principle."
Mr. Steevens offered himrt•lt to the attention of
the Chair, but a Mr. Waboattacata, a man of colour,
having addressed the meeting from the bottom of the
room, Mr. Steevens waved his right, and Mr. Wed-
derburn advanced to the table. lie sail his name
was Robert Wedderburn, the tun of an English
planter in the island uf Jamaica, by his female slave
—that he was himself born what was termed a slave,
and by accident entoyed freedom. It was then from
ocular demonstration he spoke, when he pronounced
the plan of Mr. Owen but an improved system of
human slavery—(Hear, hear).—The meal's of sub-
sistence were abundant in this coun:ry, if the ristem
was correct. Whet could explain it—lreland—that
country that suppled with food your Colonies, East
and West, your }leas and your Armies—had now its
labouring poor starving. Ile did not select that people
from any particular preference, but how came it to
be so? Was it the Dog in the Manger that kept the
Os from the Hay—(Laszkipg)—or was it the want I
of .1 d mand

Mr. Smelts:Ns trusted, that on such a comprehen-1
sive question, those who felt it a duty to otter tNeir
opinions, though they differed in their view: of the,
tendency ut Mr. Owen's plans, would all r..-eive a
patient hearing. The Gentleman who ad.lressed
them last bin one (Major Torteill) from his prema-
ture apprehensions of an excessive population, re.
trunded Mm of a man, who, blessed with all the gilts
of 'attune, and the meat: of satisfying his wants,
still refused himself the gratification of a dinner, lest
the Apense of usual fond, mght, no m itter at what
remote period. lead him to a wurkhou.e—(Ncar).—
Whatevrr mi. lit be the evil consequences of a re-
dundant population, it was nit the cause of tt.e ex.
isting distrt.ss, and when looking fur efficacious-re-
undies, we shoal" not deceive ourselves when real
evils pressed, with combating imaginary alarms. But
to return to Mr. Oxen's plan :—ln his villages, it
was assumed, morality and superior civilization
would display themselves. What said experience to
that assumption ? Was it nut almost proverbial, that
manufacturing towns were the very sink of corruption
and of immorality ? Why ? Because the minds of
men thus congregated together, were not, from cir-
cumstances, sa cultivated and improved as to reduce
them to be attentive to the instruction and happiness
of each other. Bat then we should not despair of
the new principles of i-stantaneous improvement,
alter the experiment that had been so successfnliy
tried amongst the female convicts in Newgate. He
had heard of the Overseer ut a Workhouse who
was in the habit of preaching to the assembled pau-
pers, and who was nut a little loud in roannu-
Meeting his success at conversion—(Hear, bear.)—
The sectet of the transaction was, that he Accom-
panied his admonition with a donation of snuff —(4
laagn) He would not depredate laudable exertions
to improve the moral character of -these unfortunate
people. But he must be allowed to doubt the power
of bringing about so grateful a change in such a small
portion of time. Let the Meeting look at the MA-
terials on which Mr. Owen, if the plan was practica-
ble, would have to act. Could it be expected that
from such disjointed and unassimilating materials, as
distress would drive to his villages of unity, any of
such td flattering results could, in the na-
'let, be expected. Let the system
ideed in its present incomprehen-
- by analysis the country could
Suppose a village of five Min-
ns, each of whose support was
of £2O per annum. Suppose
'shed there, at the rate of 14s.
it of the men employed. Other
the habit of giving for human
per week. Could they sustain
Id they not send their woik to
illages? Here thztt was a scheme
system of pauperism, but for
,buur, and abridging most ma-
the labouring classes of so.
Mr. Owen had attributed to
ichittery,--the reduction of the
a reduction in the price of 'a-
bove takes place, and would
the pre-mine= of British skill

and industry, the foreign markets of the world, had
not the reduction in the price of labour been more
than balanced in the addition of taxation—(Hear,
hear.)—Had At that time another machine accoto-
farmed the introduction of mechanism, our manurac-
tor, rs would not nnw be starving from the want o:
demand—the causes, the only, and the power. ul
causes of the national evil would never have occurred
—need he say, that the machine he alluded to, was
representation co-existent with taxation ?—(Lord and
continued cheering.)
Mr. Swirr rose to order.—On a question embracing
the noblest purposes of human discussion, namely,
the amelioration of millions, not alone at present, but
in perspective, he could not consider the introduction
of the political prejudices of the day, as at all within
the limits of order.

Major CAR CWRIOFIT spoke also to order, and conten-
ded, that the late s raker (Mr. Stevens) was strictly
adverting to the true merits of the question. It was
a political subject, and nothing but a political one,
and those who wished to avoid the full discussion,
were conscious that the causes of the evil could not
bear exposure. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ST*EVENI said, he had little more to add, but,
to express his lull concurrence in every thing Mr.
Owen had ao justly observed in ray tor of the most
unrestiicted liberty of conscience; and iti his hopes of
the final extinction of those odious principles of bi-
gotry which had so long upheld their own vile into.
rests at the expense of the world. (Hear.)
Mr. WAITIIMAN rose amidst repeated cheers, and
said, it was unnecessary to repeat his unfeigned and
high respect for the virtues and character of Mr.
Owen. The Meeting would appreciate the difficulty
that he, and those who telt as he did, must have
in contending with their own feelings and that of the
whole room, by statitig arguments diametrically op.
posed to the preposition of the man whose character
was the theme of geneial panegyric. And first, he
must deny the possibility of discussing the question
without a reference to political considerations. This
he rated generally, for he could not, from any inves-
tigation he could 4.ive the subject, see by what means,
either in supporting or opposing the present plan,
any political party in the country could be served.—
But, surely it was difficult to establish the propriety
of political restriction operating only against those
who differed with Mr. Owen in the results and
tendency of his plan, atter he, the proposer, had him-
self made it a political question—atter be had dis-
cussed it on political grounds—after he had also
declared that the evils which he so studiously pet--
severed to remedy, had grown into gigantic stature
by the ignorance and imbecility of the Ministers of
the Crown, who were yet so enveloped in the dense
atmosphere of their errors, that, proceeding with a
honied march to ultimate ruin, they possessed neither
the capacity oar the power to avoid it—(Cenakrafk
cries Hear. hear.) Yet, with this language in the
m .Utli and in the wtitngs of the proposer, we were
told, tor,ooth, it was not a question on which poli-
tical discussion was to be introduced. He might be
told, perhaps, that day, as he was on a former, that
he came there with a number of political friends.—
He assured the Meeting, that on the former occasion,
he rode trion t country, where be had been for some
time. direct to that Meeting, without any previous
cotiveisatiini with any political friends whatsoever.—
The same course he observed on the present accts.
sion. What then, reverting to the immediate ques.
tion, was the object for consideration ? Was it not
the pressure of the un• quailed distress ? All agree
in that admission. Mr. Owen has proposed a plea
of remedy.-- We differ as to the merits of that remedy.l
What then becomes our duty ? Was it not natural
that we, who did not feel impressed with the validil
of his recommendation, should set about (tiering that
to your decision which we• think can remove the pres-
sure by the expulsion of the cause ? If that which
has been submitted as the means of recovery be falls.
emus, should not this Meeting. before it separated,
declare what it conscientiously believed to be the re-1
medy ? But considering that disparity of temper
with which men were burn, and which no education,
could condense, he asked whether any practical man
would propose to herd men together in the way which'
Mr. Owen had in view, with any prospect of that'
degree of harmony and co-operation which that Gen-
drawl appeared to think attainable ? Mr. Owen pro.
fessed to regard every evil that afflicted society as the
result tat the ignorance and immorality of the people—
but in this opinion, he (Mr. Waithman) could by oe
means concur. Thr statement, however, of Mr. Owen
called to his recollection what took place about 20years
ago, at a meeting professedly for the relief of the poor.
On that occasion, the distress of the, poor was much
dwelt upon, and an appeal was made to the libera-
lity of the rich to contribute to their relief. But the
sufferings of the poor being attributed, in the course,
of the discussion, to the amount of the taxes, and the
prodigal expenditure of the war, he remembered that
a Dignitary of the Church rose, and declared his
conviction, that the public distress was in no degree
to be ascribed to the conduct of Government, or to
political causes—that reverend personage indeed very
cot.fidently imputed the calamities of the country,'
and the scarcity of provisions which then prevailed, to
a peculiar visitation of Peoetintecs upon the people,'
in punishment for their sins 1 He (Mr. Watchman)'
having, however, produced a proclamation from a'
British General, addressed to the French people,
stating, that he had a supply of arms. and plenty of
provisions for 40,000 men, if so many were willing to
rise against the Reirolutionary Government—this
tact so contradictory to the dogmatical assertion of
the Learned Divine, threw himselt and his colleagues
into confusion. The Chairman, in consequence, ran
away from the Chair, and the Meeting broke up.—
This anecdote he quoted to shew how apt certain
persons were to attribute to extraordinary causes,
that which was obviously the result of a System
which those persons were unwilling to touch. There
appeared a great aversion, in this instance, with some
individuals, to allude at all to politics, or to any thing
connected with the conduct of Government. He
had heard, indeed, an individual, with a tone of au-
thority, forbidding the introduction of any political
allusion, but he was not surprised at such conduct on
the part of a person who was deriving his sub-
sistence from the public money. (Hear, hear, hear.)
He would, however, be surprised it that
,were influenced by the diaurtr of such an authority
The fact was, that politics were inseparable from the
consideration of a question of this nature. In seeking
a remedy for the admitted evil which pressed upor

the country, the cease of that evil must be taken into
view, and that cause was obvious. It consisted in the
imonnt of our taxation Thar taxation had increased
•normouslv of late years, and with that increase pith-
n.rs, work-houses, public distress had increased also.
Yet there was an abunlaiice ,if wealth in the court
,rye but that wealth was in the hands of a co 'para.
tively few persons. Yes, it was in the hands of joh-
hers, both Jews and Christians; but the woise of all
j •hbers were the Government —(ifftp/miser, and same
hisses.) The Honourable Gentleman observed, that
in'erriptions at public meetings could have no other
effect upon him than to afford him some repose,
which was extremely desirahle from the state of his
health. He felt therefore no anger towards those
by whom he had been interrupted; hut he assured
them that they could gain nothing by such interrup-
tion. He repeated his assertion, that the wealth ot
the country was confined to a I.ov hands; and what
a contrast did this immense mass of wealth afford to
the extreme misery of the po 1.1 He would not say
that he disregarded popularity, which every good
mats must value. He (Mr. Waithin an) would not
affect indifference to that which the proudest men were
anxious to possess, however unwilling to deserve it.
But, ho.vever highly he estimated popularity, he
would never violate his conscience to obtain it. He
should, therefore, support Mr. Owen without hesita-
tion, if he thought his plan deserving of that support.
' But he could not think so. Yet ltd was convinced
,that if he (Mr.Waitliman) had expressed such opi-
nions as the meeting had heard to-day .from Mr.
Owen, he would have been severely abused. But to
return, to the accumulation of wealth, to which he
had already adverted, he would quote the opinion of
a distinguished commentator. Blackstone, after
taking a view of the origin and accumulation of the
National Debt. observes—.r By this means the quan-
tity of the property of the kingdom is greatly in,
'creased in idea compared with former times; yet, if
coolly considered, it is net at all increased its reality; we
may boast of large fortunes, and a quantity of money
in the Funds, but where dues this Mosey mist ? It exists
ugly in name, in palter, in 'tub& faith, in Parliamentary
security : end all this is undoubtedly sufficient for
the credit is of the public to rely on; but then what
is the pledge which the public faith has pawned for
the security of those debts? The land, the trade, and
the personal industry of the subject, from which the
money must arise that supplies the several taxes. In
these, therefore, and these only, the property of the
public creditor does really and intrinsically exist,
and rf course Me land, the trade, and the personal
industry of individuals are diminished in their true
value just ko much as they are pledged to answer;
in short, the property of a creditor of the public
consists in a certain portion of the national taxes
By how much therefore he is the richer, the nation
which pays these taxes are the poorer." These ob-
servations, which ought to be written in letters of
gold, were made, it would be recollected, when our
public debt did not exceed 130 millions, while that
debt was at presentequal to 1,000 millions. Yet if
' he.(Mr. Waithman) or any other man, who thought
with him in politics, had at this day originated those
observations, what a degree of calumny would have
followed, if not a desire to crush the author ot them
to death. But the license taken by Mr. Owen to.
'day was or a most extraordinary character indeed.
According to that Gentleman the Administration
were utterly incapable and ignorant of all the religi-
ous and political institutions of the country—were in-
deed all in the wren. Now if he ( Mr. W.) had spoken
in that strain—if he had called upon the people to
depreciate the Administration, and to put down the
Legislature, what denunciation would have been is.
sued against him? Yet such was the language of a
Gentleman who pressed for the sanction of that
meeting in favour of a plan which no one could
comprehend—which, indeed, was confessedly in-
comprehensible even to the Gentleman who had se-'
voided the worthy Gentleman's motion. Still the
worthy Gentleman stated that he had devoted five
years of his life to the preparation and arrangement
of this plan, and to embr'ace such an undefined pro-
ject, the people were called upon to abandon all the
established notions of society, in order to follow Mr.
Owen into his new Paradise—(4l laugh and hear, hear).
Were he (Mr. Waithman) the proposer of such a
scheme, he firmly believed that many persons would
have thought Nib a fit inhabitant for Bedlam. The
plat', in truth, of the worthy Gentleman amounted to
this—that all the property of the country should be
placed under the management of Government, which,
in return, was to supply the people with merely food
and raiment—(Hear, hear.) But taking men as they
really were—considering the difficulty of insuring
harmony and do-operation. even among the children
under the roof and direction of their parents, every
thinking man must regard the plan ri Mr. Owen for
managing the congregated inhabitants of his villages
of unity as completely chimerical. To practical men,.
therefore, he would appeal against the views of this
. secluded philosopher, for so he must consider him,
notwithstanding his boast of practical knowledge.
This plan, in fact, so entirely overlooked all distinc-
tions of intellect and industry, that had it originated
with him (Mr. Waithman) he had no doubt that he
would have been universally pronounced that which
he bad been often denominated—a complete leveller
—(Hear, hear.) For this plan proposed to put all men,
whether ingenious or dolts, whether learned or illite-
rate, whether good or bad, upon precisely the same
footing, securing to all alike the possession of common
food, without any other distinction among men than
existed among beasts. All the distinctions of this world
were indeed, by this plan, to be entirely swept away.
He saw on the whole something so dangerous in this
plan, while he could expect no good from it, that he
could not recommend it to any meeting. So far as
he could understand its object such a plan was quite
exceptionable. In those villages of unity it was pro-
posed, it appeared, to appoint certain Directors, but
he knew enough of Directors, and so he thought
must all the people of London—(A laugh, and near.)
He was not acquainted with any public institution or
' charity that bad not reason to complain of the coro
' duct of Directors. There was, he verily believed,
uo institution or charitable establishment in England,
the Directors and even the Secretaries or Uitclet-
' Agents of which did not continue to reuder the pro
leased object subservient to their own private interest.
I (Hear, hear.) Mr. Owen had spoken of the propriety
lid a division of labour, and yet in the new societse.
which he would constitute, he would appoint only
one public kitchen, from which the food of each so-

day was to he distributed. The truth was; that
the Worthy Gentleman did not at all at the
tont of the evil which I e sotiyht ,n remove....
W•ien a slip let in setter, what would he ih ht of
the Commander who should confine his at
to the pump•, histead of looking .olit fur :lie leak ?
Yet such was the conduct of the Worthy Geetleman.
It he had sea:c:i.:d for 'le cause of t'o- (rise which
he desired to cure, he would have Inun I r.. st cause
to consist in the amount of err taxes. Or how-
, ever. the meeting must be sensible—(Hear)—and
therefore it would better become them, as w tl as the
people a, large, to all upon the Legislature tor the
re.tuction of these tases—( lhar). • rill 16 Was a course
more befitting rational beings ("an that which Mr.
Owen urged the meeting to pursue If Ministers
Were, As Mr. Owen stated, so conscious .4 the dan-
ger that surrounded them, and of the Improper mea•
sures th-y were puriuing, it behoved the people to
interpto.e, and cast upon them to .I.lAndun their career.
Mr. o..ven had not, as he had s rid ..n a 'Ol mer day,
given ;my satisfactory detail or deflation ois plan,
as far as his definition went, it wasekrepti, Able.
The wlyttlay Gentleman h.d said that the people
should be instructed, and in this he tuily agreed with
him—but he b..lieved that the peop:e were better in-
structed at present than they had ever been before.
The want of instruction was not thereosre Isy any
means the cause of our present aggravated c
neither was that calamity owing to toe want of
lic morality or prudence. For people were not now
to be seen drunk in the Streets. as was formerly the
case, nor were any round unwilling to work, where
employment could be had. Vice or crime was
notoriously not the effect of depraved principles,
hut of dire want. Mr. Owen, therefore, dill not
look to the fountain-head of our public
He had not, to use an old observation, taken the
right end i,f the stick. He had Attempted reforma.
tion at the top, instead of beginning at the bottom.--
The worthy Gentleman's calculations were o, doubt
correct, when he said that a family could be supper.
ted for af•10 a year, and therefore 700 families could
be suLsisted for sell,ooo. Nuw it the worthy Gets.
tleman had bNuri at the right end, lie would have
stated that 700 families. and taking lour for each fa-
mily, 2800 persons could have been maintained for
on: year, upon the sum taken from the pocket of the
public, to gratify the cupidity of that gross jobber
Gearge Canning, in his mission to Lisbon. (Lome
aligaurts, mixed with some hisres.) This was, no doubt,
A topic upon which every man connected with Ad-
miniaration, and especially the jobber alluded to,
must feel somewhat awkwardly, and, theretore, he
should not dwell up .n it ; which, indeed, WAS not at
411 necessary, as Mr sem:l4l4ls transaction alluded
to was so thu.oughly understood by retry marl of
co:ninon sense in tne country. (Hear, hear.) The
worthy Gentleman concluded r• Adun the fol-
lowing Amendment, which lie proposed in 'lave put
after the propu:.ition before the Meeting should be
di posed of

s` That while wit cypress our graiitude and thanks to Mr.
Owen for his unremitting and ben. voient endeavours to peon ore
the condos.' and happiress os the poor, and agree with ham as to
the nature and ea.eut tit tlis!ree% and misery that prevails, weary
nevertheless of op , that the plan he ha. pittpwiect for tt.ir
relief Is nether practicable too calculated to ttaFlVet awing evils.
" That in urd.r to apply an adequate remedy to stievai re tit
such inaptitude it is necessary to search into the cause and root
thereof; that it appears to us that iii. progressive god comfort:as
increase of the poor and poors' rates have kept pact. with i he pr.-
gre.sive &Edenton:outs 1110 ease of taxation, and that :he c ttttt nem
and agriculture or Ilse country, sinking under ire pressure. • ascot
found eini.loyntent• fur the labouring el.isties of the cootnauttity.
" I hat, without at prevent intpitting how tar the existing
gris Vance might have !seen prevented, by a wise. wt.'tilt and just
.olson.istrotton rat alliars, we are or opinion. ULU 00 ffe..ival re.
mcdy can be looked tor but in the diminution us our r;ataccal
Madsen' ; that It is, thereft,re, the illipt7.oll4 duty at the Guresu.
11W0C, ilia Legislature, and the Pt orle, to use every acticable
and eonstlittional means to prevent all unnec,iwzry anti impro.
Indent reptsiditure of the Piz:.iic Money, and to tbhtitte such a
.ystitts of taut itatiots Lit.lreirenchrueitt ipt would tend to roma*
she ha. pines and provenly of rite nation."
Mr. EuzruNn Slyter said, that having been alluded
to by d.e Gentleni ho poke last, he had no hezi.
tation in stating that he fold an office under Govern.
merit—(Lord hiiriv, and cri..-r of " glee) ffs
had spoken to oraLr, because he telt it riot to de.
precate. the introdeetion of polities tit this discussion,
but declared that be did not at all mean to speak in the
tone of cognitions!. as the last speaker had observed.
As to hi. place, it Was in the ; his Fir_lecesciir
enjoyed its emoluments toe fory-live years, And he
hoped to enjoy them still longer—(Ceirs of 51P f.')
Cut he could not admit that the lioitilog 0: thus place
deprived flirts of his p: isiieges au and
he was surerhe meting would !..spisu ria•n, ii he con.
srnted to surrender those pit siirges, fse to shrink from
the performance of shat he conceived to be his duty.
' ii calling a former speaker to order. who aptieared Lo
liim to wander from the question under cot sitleration.
Dr. Watrza recommended, that with 4 view to
benefit the poor, the pre ens poor rates should be
doubled, and the whole fund vested in the hands of
Government, for distribution in these districts where
distress was most severe. For according to the pre-
sent arrangement there were many parishes where
the rates were enormously high, while in others they
were very low, and such a system of inequality ought
to be remedied.

Major CARTWAVHIT here appeared on the table,
and was received with the loudest plaudits. The
worthy Major began by o'•serviug, tlit.t Mr. Owen's
plan of philanthropy was only to be regarled as 11
political proposition, to be carried into execution by
political means. The whole systern was built upon
the indisputable position of Universal and uoeaampled
distress, and to relieve this distress Mr. Owen brought
forward a plan which no one could understand, and
which WAS enfit to be discussed in this or any similar
Meeting, from the complexity of its char-Acker. and
the variety of interests it involved. Here the
worthy Major entered into a commentary upon Mr.
Owen's book, observing, that it was evident the at:.
thor did not look to are radical cause of the tvils
which afflicted the country, and uhich notoriously-
was the pressure of taxation, and this pressure was
indisputably the result of the inad,•quate rapt, senta-
don of the people in Parnametit—(Hear, hear).
The CHAIRMAN observed, that he Though! the Tics.
nourabkCentleman was wanderin4 from Lite qw,tion,
but there being a general cry of " n,,!"
Major Cattruoiturir defended the tine of conduct
he had taken, but did not resume the thread of his
argument where he had been Interrupted. He spoke
at considerable length amidst cries of " Qatar,
fire ;"...m." Order;"—" No Pallier," sLi% Thi
man and Mr. itowcroit nue:feted ot4taiu

such specious and firitti
Lure of human conduct,
be simplified, and indee
Bible shape, it was only
judge of its merits.
Jred of these inhabitant
obtained at an expense
a manufactory establish
per week for the labour
manufacturers were in
labour thirty shillings p
rich a rivalry ? ‘Voulc
t.e executed in these via
hot for destroying the
reducing the price cf.
serially the comforts of
:ietc— /star.)_,
the introdu:tion of mac
•puce of lalr•ur. That
hour would no doubt
Lave secured, from the

r:on, ref.
te Ch
tlence,