Star.
London, England, 1821-02-10 00:00:00

, :111:,`-1 ! '-. , .. , ". • ,
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as spirits, though,-b7 the Act
shy which..it was the reductions they might. The number 'ol" place-
.graimed; itiwas to•serpite, within a lisfitedliine. Rut men in the Hobs, ought to be made. a substantive
the cospeinuasjoa 90 aysingie tax should Clot be Voted motion. If the tax on malt was a revival of the one
till Ministers canm forward with a statement of their imposed two years ago, he should oppose it'.
intentions as to yecosichment—(Hear. hear).--The . Mr. HUSKISSON said, the tax is only a renewal'
tax was demanded on the ground of a reduction of of the annual'tax—it is a permanent tax, and accom-
a million having been 'made in the' public expendi-panics the Laed-tax. The quantity of malt made
tare ; but the Chancellor of the' Exchequer had t year exceeded that of two or three fOrmer years.
Elt
stated, in 1817, that the rxpenses• of list yeur•won ld •Mr. CREEVEY would not divide the. Committee
may be 17 millions, when, instead of that, they had on the cadres, but on.she new Malt-tax.
amounted to 19 millions, being two millions above Sir .W. DE CRESPIGNY said he would soon
*is own calculation. With the exception of the sala- bring forward a Motion on the subject of the frauds
ries of Ministers, which had received no increase, the on the Reveque. Unless the whole system was altered
salaries and emoluments of all oilier classes of public the country must deteriorate.
'linen bad been greatly incremed—( Hear, hear).—In Sir F. BLAKE defended the conduct of the Coin-
England od Scotland individuals had been kept in mittee of Supply, which had been termed afarce be-
office, for the sake of patronage, at an expense to the cause a few Members only4iad been present. If the
Public of from one to•aoo,ooo—(Hear heal.-- Committee were a far4e, it wal owing to the conduit
And, should he divide with but his Hon. Friend,' he of the Honourable Member himself, whO hid-divided
should oppose the proposed tax. Had the Income the Committee five times with 'no chance of success.
Tax been continued, there would not have been any He was fully satisfied with the number of seamen
retrenchment—(Hear). proposed to be voted.
Mr. R. WARD said, that the higher Officers in the Mr. CREEVEY stated, that he should not take the
Ordnance had been reduced—his own salary to the sense of the Committee on any of the old taxes, but
amount of £6OO a-year; another to the amount of only on the new.
1.500; and a third to the amount of £BOO. The Resolutions on the Malt Tax, the Excise on
Mr. HUME could point out instances where enor- Snuff and Tobacco, together with the Land Tax and
mous pensions had been granted; but he would ask theTaxonPensions, wereputand carried unanimously.
the Hon. Gentleman whether the Storekeeper of On the Resolution for comm. uing.the additional
Dover had not retired with a salary of I-500? Duties on Sugar,- Malt, Tobacco, &c. imposed for the
Mr. It. WARD said, the Storekeeper of Dover had purpose of raising three millions of Revenue, the
not retired at all! • .
__ Committee divided.—For the Resolution, 81; against

it, 48—Majority, 31.
The House then resumed, and the Report was or-
dered to be received on Monday.
LONGITUDE AMENDMENT BILL. •
The Report of the Longitude Amendment Bill was
brought up, the Amendments were agreed to; and the
Bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday next.
BOARD OF CONTIOUL.
Mr. HUME rose, to submit to the House the mo-
tion of which he had given notice, and of which the
object was to ascertain whether the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the President of the Board of Controul, had
vacated his seat. He had no doubt, from the exa-
mination which he had made, that, if the appoint-
ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman corresponded with
the time of taking his seat, he was free from the pe-
nalty. But that could not be known to the House
without the warrant of the Right Ron. Gentleman's
appointment. When any motion for Reform was
made from his (Mr. Hume's) side of the House, there
was an outcry by the other side against innovation.
Yet, by the other side of the House were the most
dangeious innovations made on the Constitution of
the Country. Not one of the four Right Hon. Gem~
tlemen whom he saw opposite, could Mold a seat in
that House by the Act of Queen Anne, or could vote
away public money, as they had done in the last di-
vision which had taken place. This was contrary to
the intention of the ancient Constitution in the best
sprit of our ancestors. The great objection to Mr.
Fox's Bill had been, that, it gave patronage to the
Crown and occasioned tipenses to the India Com-
pany. Mr. Pitt had pledged his promise that his Bin
would be productive of neither of those evils. From
1784 to 1793, the Commissioners had had, indeed,
no salary : but the Act of the 33d of his late Ma;
jesty gave five thousand pounds, with this provision,
that those Commissioners who received salary should
vacate their seats in Parliament. But was not patron-
age emolument? (" No, uo,"fion. the Treasury Bend).
If it was not emolument in a pecuniary sense, it was
in the spirit of the Act, and accordingly every, Presi-
dent since 179$ had vacated his seat on his appoint-
anat. The value of the patronage of the India Corn.
pany had been shewn in a Pamphlet published by a
Member of the last Parliament, Mr. R. Grant. There
it appeared that there were SOO regular appointments
in the patronage of the President of the Board of
Controul. The patronage this year, and entirely he•
longing to the President of the Board, was, twenty-six
Cadets, two Writers, and four Assistant-Surgeons.—
The value of those appointments would amount to
£12,000. A Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had been'
brought before the House for buying a seatr-(Hearp,
hear). For that seat the price to have been given was,
the appointment of one Writer. They all knew what
the price of a seat was. The President of the Board
of Controul had appointed two Writers last Novens.
ber, and consequently his patronage, in that respect.
was worth two seats in Parliament. The Board of
Controul had occasioned expenses to the Company.
to the amount of £BOO,OOO. Yet the Commissioners
never did act as a Board, and the President now re-
ceived no salary. Why then could not the Board be
altogether dispensed with ? The Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving an humble Address,• praying
" That there be laid before the House, Copies of the
Letters Patent, or Commission, by which the )tight
Hon. George Canning was appointed President of the
Board of Controul,, and the Right Hon. C. Bathurst
was subsequently appointed to the same Office."
Mr. BATHURST did not object to the production.
of this document; and he had expected the Honour.;
able Gentleman would not have reasoned on this Mat-
ter until' he had the document before him. When
that came before the House, they would see whether
he fell under the Act of Queen Anne, when he had no
appointment of salary at present. That Act expreply
said, that if the Officers of the Board of Controul did
not receive salaries, they were not bound to vacate
their seats. He should certainly be sorry to be de-
prived of all the emoluments to be derived from his
office .but all this was premature now, until the do-
cument was before the House.
Mr. CRFEVEY wished to know the nature of the
Sign Manual granted for holding the office. At first
the President had £2,000, and latterly £6,000 alear.
By the Act of Anne, this was a place of profit and.
emolument. He did not believe that the Right Ho,
nouralde Gentleman was about to use his patronage
emolument and pecuniary profit; but he had no
doubt he would use it as any other President of the
Board of Controul would ; and if he did so, it was
evidently a place of profit.
Mr. W. SMITH said, the only object in this mo-
tion was to understand whether the influence of the
Crown did not exist in this House in a very extraor.
dinary degree? This was a matter with which the
country ought to be made acquainted. The patron-
age of this office and the emoluments under it tended'
to increase the influence of the-Crown, and ought.to
be put an end to.
Mr. B. BATHURST explained.- The whole object

Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the proposed tax was
an annual one, and had been voted as such from the
time of Queen Anne. The tax was an annual one,
and went to cover an expense already incurred. The
practice of late years, as to the Estimates, had been
much improved. No sums for the Extraordinaries
of the Army or Navy could be called for till the
Estimates should be in the hands of Members.,—
Though the Seamen had been voted, no money could
be applied without a vote in the Committee of Sup-
ply. The House would not put itself in the predica-
ment of voting an armament, and refusing the means
of fitting it out. Though he admitted the distresli,
he thonet it had been exaggerated. He begged
the House not to deviate from the uniform practice
of Parliament.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that it was proved
that much distress existed, and he should like to
knew in what the exaggeration consisted? In time
of peace, the Estimates should be ready when the
Imoney was called for. Why had not the Estimates
been ready before the Meeting of Parliament? But
the public business was deferred till the close of the
Session, when thirty or forty Bills were read in the
course cf a night, and many of them so full of blun-
din, as to be a disgrace to the Legislature. A few
years ago, a Bill had been introduced, imposing a
duty os Madder, in which the word " Madder" had
been left oat ; and some years farther back, an of-
fence had been declared punishable with six months
imprisonment, one half of which went to the King !
In fact, the House of Lords had made a point of
throwing out, without examination, Bills sent up to
them at the close of the Session.
Mr. HUSKISSON stated, that the 6otton and
Woollen Menu/acmes had improved.
Mr. BROWN complained of the depressed state
oldie Linen Manufactories in Ireland. With
to the cause of the general distress, he believed at to
be the great exertions to which the country had been
driven. It had been placed, by a great and glorious
war, in the very highest rank among the nations.--•
Thank GOD, it was so. But the struggle had pin.
duced the effect of which we now complained; and
he believed the emergencies of our situation could
only have been met and remedied by one masterly
hand. That masterly hand was now no more !--he
meant the late Mr. Pitt—(Hear, hear).—The Hon.
Member then compared the state of Ireland with that
of this country, and concluded that the former was
by far the most lamentable.
Mr. GLADSTONE deprecated the idea that the
House could apply any immediate remedy to the
existing distresses. But he was happy to know, that
the consumption of grain had of late much increased
in the manufacturing districts.—The Hon. Gentleman
was adverting to what bad taken plate on the former
evening, when he was stopped by the Chairman as
being irregular.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in a Committee of
Supply a Member was allowed to advert to every
topic connected with the state of the Nation. That
fact, the Chairman, from his ample experience, must
be fully aware of.
Mr. BROGDEN was not at all offended by the
I lecture that had very properly been read to him. It
appeared to him that the Hon. Gentleman had deviated
from order ; but it was for the Committee to decide.
Mr. GLADSTONE resumed. The cause of the
distress at Birmingham had been justly stated by the
Member for Stafford, to be owing to the loss of the
supply of arms. As to the assertion that had been
made, of the friends of Members holding situations 6f
profit, he knew nothing of that kind in Liverpool.
CREEVEY begged to ask the Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) how the appointment
of Mr. Stanniforth, who held a situation of 13,000
or £4,000 a-year, had taken place ? Would the Ho-
nourable Gentleman say, that this had been done in-
dependently of any political connection ? The Ho-
pourable Member also- mentioned the name of an-
other individual, Mr. Falkner, as holding a situation
of considerable profit.
Mr. GLADSTONE would affirm that Mr. Stanni-
forth had no connection with the Members for Liver-
pool, at least no relationship that he was aware of.
Mr."CREEVEY did not wish to be understood as
mentioning the name of Mr. Stanniforth with any
disrespect. He had the pleasure of, knowing that
Gentleman, and he respected him; but as the Ho-
nourable Member (Mr. Gladstone) had denied that
the Members for Liverpool were in the situation in
which he (Mr. Creevey) had, -in an early part of the
debate, described other Members to- be, he would
state, that Mr. Stanniforth was a relative of Mr. Bol-
ton, and that the place: which he got being warmly
contested at the Treasury, Lord Lonsdale ktits set in
motion in-his-favour, and he succeeded—(Order).
Mr. lIROGD,EN said that, after the reprimand he
had just received, he was unwilling to interrupt any
Hon. Member; but he put it to the Committee whe-
ther this kind of discussion respecting private indivi-
duals was orderly ?—(Hear).
Mr. WESTERN denied that Ministers had made

; agai

• , •

of this motion was to ascertain whether he Lad va-
cated his seat by accepting this office?
Mr. M. FITZGERALU thought this a matter of
so much importance that it was irnrzrative on the
House to inquire whether the Right Honourable Gen-
tleinan held his situation in violation of the law of
the land ? Every other office under the Crown might
be held during ilia Session of Parliament, as long as
.the bolder of at 'mailed for that time to accept the
emoluments Of it. If he possessed the patronage of
this office he could (notwithstanding all the ease with
which he gained his seat in Parliament) obtain it still
more easily by being able to bestow twenty-six Ca-
detships, two Writerships, &and so many situations as _
Assistant-Surgeons, among his constituents. When
Lord Melville was at the head of this Board, India
was peopled with aspiring young Scotchmen. Then
came a change for the better; and when an Irish-
man got at the head of it, none but Irishmen got ap-
pointments in India. There would, he now hoped,
'come a still happier change; and England would at
last have her due share in the advantages to be de-
rived from East India patronage.
Mr. B. BATHURST again repeated, that the only
question was, whether he had vacated'his seat by ac-
cepting of this office without salary, which was the
only tenour on which he held his office?
Mr. M. FITZGERALD did not mean to attribute
the smallest interested motive to the Right Honour-
able Gentleman.

Lord ALTHORPE said, he did not conceive the
Right lion, Gentleman's Ccmstituents would think
him less acceptable to them because he possessed
this patronage.
Mr. T. COURTENAY said, there was no salary
now payable to his Right Hon. Friehd near him. It
never had been customary to vacate a seat in Par-
liament on accepting the office of President of the
Board for India Affairs without salary.
Mr. DENMAN wished to know, if the Right Hon.
Gentleman did not receive the salary usually at.
tached to his office, what became of it?—(Hear).
It was generally rumoured, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman received no part of it himself, but re-
served it for another Rigjit Hon. Gentleman who
had lately held the office, and who was now absent
from the country—(Cries of " No, no," from the Mi-
nisterial Benches). If that were the case, was it distri-
buted amongst the other Commissioners ?—(Cries of
" No, no.") Or was it saved to the Public ?—(Cries
of " No, no; to Me 'East India Company.") It was
satisfactory at least to'know that fact.

Lord BINNING would not have troubled the
House on this question had it not been for the allu•
sion just made to his Right Hon. Friend, the late
President of the Board of Controul. Where, in the
name of GOD, bad the Hon. Gentleman heard of this
rumour ? Why had he mentioned it ?—(Cheersr.i—
Was the character of publii men to be thus loosely
sported with? . His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning)
would be the last man in the world to receive to
emoluments of an office the duties of which he did
not perform—(Hear).
Mr. DENMAN had mentioned nothing that had
not already appeared inahe Newspapers. If the Noble
Lord thought that he had done the character of his
Right Hon. Friend any benefit by the defence he had
made of it, he laboured under considerable delusion. -
Mr. S. BOURNE thought that no such imputation
had ever been previously made by one public man
against the character of another—(Hear).—Would
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman state the authority
on which he had mentioned this circumstance?.—
(Hear, hear).—He never, during the whole course nf
his political life, which had been a pretty long one,
heard such an insinuation come from any political
malignant-,..-(ifear, hear).
Mr. DENMAN had made no insinuation against
the character of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Canning), but had' put what he conceived to be a fair
question to the.Rigbt Hon. Gentleman who now pre-
sided at the Board of Controul. Political malignity
to that Right,Hon. Gentleman's predecessor 'he felt
none. At any rate,". such a question- as 'he had put
gave Mr. Canning's friends' an' opportunity of con-
tradicting a very prevalent rumour.' The soreness
which the two Honourable Members opposite had
exhibited, was no very great compliment to their
Right Hon. Friend.
'Mr. ASTELL saw nothing that ought to, have
called forth the warm feelings which had just been
exhibited.— After eulogizing, in very strong terms,
the conduct of Mr. Canning, as President of the
Board of Controta, he expressedhis satisfaction that
the East India Company was to benefit by theßight
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. B. Bathurst) not itg
his salary. _
After a few words from Mr. W. COURTENAY, the
motion was put and carried.
The second motion of Mr. Hums was now put:

"That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, pray..
ing that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to order that a
copy of the last Warrant, under the sign manual of his Majesty,
_ _ _

countersigned .by tke Right Honourable the Chancellor of the
Eackequer, and certified by the late President of the Board of
Controul, for Sabuies,"as required by the 32d Geo. 111. should
be laid before the House."
This, after a desultory conversation, in which Mr. Hoist,'
Mr. C. B. BATHiblotr, Mr. 44.1T1LL, and Mr. T. P. COULTEXATi
took a part, was carried.
Colonel DAVIES wished to know what was to be done with
this salary, now thak the Hon. Gentlemap did not receive it?
Mr. B. BATHU.RST said, that. he had already stated, ten
I times over, that it would be a siring out of the sum granted trp
the East India Company. The Board of Controulwouhl have.
no claim on the East India Company for the 45,000.
Olathe motion of Mr. Hume, a copy si the bit:Werrallt,
is-
sued under the Presidency of Mr. B. ',farness; walkordertinik
be laid on the talaht.
. NATI 11311anici. '
On the motion Mr. Caszver..the,Ziavy &Owned itlic
to the grants reported on Tuesday last, were ordered to be laid
on the table.—The.other Orders onbtl)ay wets then disposed
of, and the House adjourned, at Half past

• .. •
you- wnit BE IY)O.LA'PE AFTER NEXT
w KDN ES DAY r but if Whole VALLICTIMeI v,
you can only, Iwo on a Whole Tkket; its. for i Sixttvuth.
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