Star.
London, England, 1810-01-27 00:00:00

noble Lord who was t

reagh) had behaved well in saying, he was ready to I
come forward in defence of that measure, whenever
the House should think fit to make it a subject of in-
quiry, though that Noble Lord, as well as his late Col-
league (Mr. Canning) were not in office, still that House
and the Country held them responsible. As to putting
off the Motion of the Noble Lord till after Monday he
did not like the idea. He would rather secure the
object then—(Hear, hear.) If the Gentlemen did
not fear Inquiry, then alone was the time. (Hear,
/sear.) As to the mode of Inquiry it could be of
little consequence whether it was at the Bar of that
House or in a Committee. If Inquiry had not been
determined against, he trusted that nouse would in-
stitute it immediately. He approved of the Motion
of the Noble Lord.

Mr. BOYLE said, the Motion was not to inquire
into the Expedition to the Scheldt, it was to appoint
a Committee of the whole House for that purpose.—
If the House did not wish to bring itself into ridicule
and contempt—(considerable cheering from the Opposition
benches)—it would consider of the consequences of
the Motion if carried. He assured the House he had
not been instructed by his constituents how he was to
vote. (if laugh.)
Sir WM. CURTIS rose to give his support and
most hearty concurrence to the Motion of the Noble
Lord.—(lfrar, hear,- from the Opposition Side of the
House.)—He went to that House to do his duty, and
he thought Inquiry necesiary.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SUMNER said he must have some ground
for an Inquiry before he approved of such a Motion
as that before the House.

Mr. LASCELLES spoke to the same effect.
Mr. HENRY MARTIN approved ache Motion.
Mr. BOYLE explained.
Mr. W. SMITH.—He, as well as 19 out of 20 in
the country, did not want Papers to enable him to
judge of the Question ; why, therefore wait till Mon-
day ? If they did not then decide, the Question
would be put off to a time that would never arrive.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. TIERNEY thought there never was a Mo-
tion that involved more important consequences be-
fore that House. The Right Honourahlz Chancellor
of the Exchequer had said that the Motion vas the
effect of the disappointment and chagrin in conse-
quence of having been out-voted. The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman spoke in a very humble tone the
other night ; but having found himself in a pretty
gond majority, he talked loud, and with a bold and
stamping manner, demanded the support of that House
as his Majesty's Minister. To colour the opposition
Ito the Motion, precedent had been quoted—the Bu•
enos Ayres expedition. No Inquiry was necessary,
as the officers had been broke in another place, which
precluded the necessity. The House had been told
that it was prejudging the question. \Vas it necessary
to have Papers to tell him that there was calamity
As to what was said in the King's Speech about pro-
ducing Papers, he did not believe a word of it. It
was ere of the old tricks. If the question were put off
till Monday se'nnight, he would tell the House what
would then happen ; that would be a motion for pa-
pers, then another motion for papers to explain those
previously produced ; and so on till the end of the
Session. He thought the question, as had been said,
to bu ole on which no papers that would be produ-
ced in that House could throw any light. His Ma-
jesty had distinctly avowed, that he has no fault
to find with his Commanders or Officers belonging
to that Expedition. Well, then, if there were fault,
as there certainly was, it must be that of those who
planned it. As to the mode in which the Inquiry
ought to be carried on, he would be content with
nothing but examination at the bar of that House,
in the face of the Public—{Hear, hear, hear.) He
wanted that the confidence of the country should be
restored, he would say, if it were not disorderly, se-
cured to that House. It certainly was shaken, and
examination only was wanted. The excuses for op-
posing the motion were flimsy and must be seen
through by the public. The papers, the much-boasted-
of papers, he s lid, were kept back as a colts de re-
serve. He hoped to GOD that the Motion of the Noble
Lord would succeed ; the previous question, if car-
ried, would put off Inquiry altogether, and he sin-
cerely hoped that the authors of calamities and dis-
graces would be brought to condign punishments►►
Mr. WILBERFORCE explained.
Lord NEWARK approved of the Motion of the
;Noble Lord.

Mr. GOOCH was friendly to Inquiry, but thought
the present motion premature, and therefore he should
vote for the previous question.
Mr. CANNING declared his conviction that In-
quiry was necessary, but he did not sec that the mode
cuggested by the Noble Lord was proper, and would
therclore support the previous question.
Mr. PATTESON moved that the Debate be ad-
journed to Monday sc'nnight.
The Motion being put from the-Chair,

Mr. PONSON BY rose, and said that he felt persua-
ded that the Motion originated in the Minister, who
telt that he would be in a minority, and wished to
gain time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—
" To spew the Right Hon. Gentleman that he is mis-
taken, 1 shall give a negative to the Motion."
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw.—When
the gallery was' cleared, we understand Mr. PATTE-
SON's Motion was negatived without a division.
The House then divided on the previous question,
For the previous question, Ayes 186—Noe. 195
Majority against Ministers 9.—The Committee was
then appointed for Friday next. Adjourned at Half
past One, until Monday next.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JAN. 9.6.

Upon the motion of Lord LIVERPOOL it was
resolved to appuint a Committee to eximine into the
state of the House, with a view to its being properly
ventilated.

His Lordship then rose to make his promised Mo-
tion for the Thanks of the House to Lord Welling-
ton, on his victory at Talavera. The subject he was
about to have the honour of proposing was one, upon
which it was peculiarly desirable to have the cordial
and unanimous concurrence of their Lordships, but
he could not repress a very painful apprehension, that
from what passed on a former night, some difficulties
would be thrown in the way of that unanimity. He
must, however, endeavour to correct a mistake which
some Noble Lords appeared to be under, respecting

he had the honour to give notice. Whatever differ-
ence of opinion might exist with respect to the general
issue or conduct of, the campaign, those differences
were wholly unconnected with the object immediately
under consideration, which was simply and distinctly
the victory at Talavera, for a victory, and one of the
mist splendid in character it must undoubtedly be re-
garded by all Europe; and though the consequences
have not been adequate to the glory of that exploit, it
was yet accompanied with circumstancesof the utmost
importance to our military fame, and the advan-
tage of our Allies both in Spain and -Portugal. This
was amply testified by the Governments of both those
countries, which bore witness to the indisputable fact
that a British force not exceeding 20,000 men sus-
, tained and defeated the impetuous and repeated as- '
saults of 50,000 of the enemy, and compelled them
ultimately to retreat with the loss of a considerable
portion of their artillery. Nor could it ever fairly be
ascribed to the English General, that he had made
an improvident disposition of his troops. They did
indeed sustain the whole force of the enemy's assaults,
but to the valour and firmness which they displayed
it was owing that the enemy were baffled. A refer-
ence had been made to the subject of the thanks of
that House on the occasion of Sir John Stuart's vic-
tory at Maida, and he could not help considering it
as having a material appositeness to the present ques-
tion. The gallant Commander in Calabria had im
mediately in view two objects, the relief of the gar-
rison at Caieta, and the security of the inhabitants of
the country. In neither of these was he ultimately
successful. But although not only in reference to
the pclicy or prudence of this exploit, but the general
conduct of the campaign in Italy, much doubt was
entertained ; yet when the noble Baron opposite
moved for the thanks of that House to Sir John Stuart
on that occasion, they were promptly and cordially
conceded even by those who were least disposed to
applaud that gallant General. And he earnestly and
solemnly conjured their Lordships to reflect how
important it was, especially at this time, duly to ap-
preciate and honourably to distinguish exalted mili-
tary virtue. In that country with whose stupendous
power we were now contending, every thing had
been overborne by the military establishment. The
Church, the Law, all civil and social institutions had
been sacrificed to that. Happily, indeed, with us,
our military strength and military glory derived its
hest support in the generous accord and approbation
of the public, and he again besought their Lordships
to render with cordial unanimity the signal honour of
their assent to the Motion, which he should now pre-
sent to them. He then moved, that the Thanks of
this House be presented to Lord Viscount Welling-
ton and the Officers and men under his command, for
the glorious victory obtained by them, in conjunction
with our Spanish Allies, over the combined armies
of France, at Talavera.

Upon the motion being put from the Woolsack,
The Earl oaf SUFFOLK rose. He said it was
with great regret that as a military man, he found it
impossible for him to concur in the motion of the
Noble Secretary. He could never assent to the pro-
priety of bestowing the Thanks of that House except
upon occasions of exploits unequivocally glorious and
advantageous to the country. This he could not dis-
cover in the subject of the motion now before their
Lordships. He could by no means call that a vic-
tory or a triumph which to his view presented nothing
but eventful defeat and disgrace ; nor could he ac-
cept of the boasted capture of a few pieces of cannon,
as a counterpoise for the loss of a multitude of priso-
ners, and the whole of our sick and wounded soldiers
being left to the mercy of the enemy.
Lord GROSVENOR expressed a reluctance in
opposing the Motion of the Noble Secretary, in which
he was actuated by no motive of disesteem for the
Noble General who was the object of it ; but because
he did not consider the occasion to be such as could
properly call forth so signal a mark of distinction.
Indeed, in his view of the subject generally of that
House's thanks, he thought they were too frequently
called forth. He likewise disapproved of the readi-
ness with which the peerage was of late bestowed,
because it led directly to a very alarming constitu-
tional abuse. The title to a seat in that House was
often bestowed upon a person who was not possessed
of a fortune fit to maintain it with its due and inde-
pendent dignity. The consequence was, that, in
time, he or his successor became dependent on the
Crown. Some occasions, undoubtedly, there were,
on which neither honours nor emoluments could be
too largely bestowed. Such was the case of the great
Duke of Marlborough, and of the no less great Lord
Nelson. He could not consider the present an instance
of this kind, and therefore must withhold his support
from the Motion.

Lord MOUNT JOY expressed the diffidence which
his inexperience felt. in addressing their Lordships on
the present occasion, especially as he perceived op-
posed to him a Noble Lord (Grey) who would not
fail to apply any inadvertence he might commit to
his disadvantage. He could not, however, refrain
from the expression of his great surprise that any per-
son should be found, either within their Lordships'
walls, or without them, who could, for one moment,
hesitate to acknowledge the splendour of that glorious
victory which their Lordships were now called upon
to proclaim. Could their Lordships forget the hard-
ships and privations under which that victory was
achieved ?—a victory in which the Noble Comman-
der had crowned and overshadowed himself with
never-fading laurels. His Lordship concluded a very
animated speech with his hearty assent to the motion.
Earl GREY.—If it were true, as the Noble Lord
(Mountjoy ) stated, that the battle of Talavera was
crowned with success, still he (Earl Grey), must op-
pose a systemsahich raised Commanders to the rank
of heroes, merely for the efforts of rashness. He
did not mean to deny that there was, in this case, the
appearance of victory ; but, did this battle, for which
the House was to vote its thanks, bear any marks of
a great and decisive victory ? He denied, however,
that it was entitled to the highest honour which that
House could render. Something had been said in allu-
sion to the battle of Maida ; there was no comparison
t6the point ; the battle of Maida surpassed in its effects
the battle of Talavera; since the latter did not arrest
the progress of the enemy, who retired from it in com-
plete order. Nor did we make any prisoners at the time.
Cannon was said, indeed to have been taken ; but the
capture of cannon held forth a disputable proof of
victory ; unless we knew the circumstances in which
the cam% wu talien. Two days after the battle

'of rhaiveri, the British army. Wag compelled
pitately to retreat ; the consequences beir.g
disastrous, I must look upon it," said Earl
C.
as a great national disaster !" Instead of thee 4
outnumbering us, as it was represented to lieve"
we anal our allies outnumbered the enemy. i„.12
was not rendered to the Spaniards. Wton ee
to the Spanish account of the battle, and fourd4:,-
of the Spaniards killed or wounded in it, it was
than useles to assert, that they bore no efficiert,'
ticceiptahtis
iionoiffnerte4 the ftoatethoofsethwh
edoafyo.ugNhottwointlhy v'
precipitate were the retrograde steps of our 4(l''-
1 that Lord Wellington even abandoned the
under the command of Sir Robert Wilson.
Wellington also failed to secure the flan;
rear of his army, on the result of the 13 el,.
Talavera. Failing in his object, he atioe
his skit to the humanity of their foes, who
advancing on them ; indeed, there were none of,
legitimate consequences of victory, such as t:
turing prisoners, and obtaining possession of
magazines of the enemy. Lord Wellington s
s it
fought a battle ; but it was the least of merits,
ti
r.:it)sti .
pea), estimating the military character, that of ,
ins battles. Equally censurable was Lord
ton's position at Badajos. ,He (Earl Grey), did':
dividually, regret his present painful task. Note ,
standing that, he thought Lord Wellington aii
and honourable man, an oaicer of great spirit, s
was imprudent iu his dispositions, and, he was
was now in the most perilous situation. Earl G.
concluded by censuring, freely and strongly, the nu
ner in whith Ministers had promulgated the news
the battle of Talavera ;...which had originally produ,
nothing but exultation, while, ultimately, it etc;,.
nothing but indignation.
Marquis WELLESLEY now rose. Agitated
he felt by private feelings and public duty, he
not avoid the delivery of his sentiments. Forei.
Courts had entrusted his Noble Brother with a
tit) only short of Royal ; 'and, whatever the N,
Earl opposite might think the Spanish people did
view the victory of Talavera as mean or trivia
When Lord Wellington went out, the eat
was not only in possession of the North of P.
tugal, but also menaced Lisbon. The steps of,
Nobleßrother were able and decisive : he first che-
ed the advances of General Victor. General Cu.
invited Lord Wellington to co-operate with him, at
head of 38000 troops, in eel:iling the corps comma,'
by Victor. Supposing his Noble Brother had ref
such co-operation, had taken upon himself to su,..
the conduct of General Cuesta, the bravery and
I triotism of the Spanish people, and the superintend,
management of the Spanish Junta ? Lord Wellia
ton had, he would say, acted with judgment, as
as with. energy ; and, acting in that manner, he
saved both Spain and Portugal. As to the battle.
Talavera, it was a fact, but not generally uno
stood as such, that General Venegas was to ha
taken an assigned position un the 22d, but, ow',
to some interveation which he could not expla
that Officer's march was suddenly counterman.
by the Supreme Junta, and he did not reach
post till the 29th. It was not for him to acco..
for these things ; we could not expect Spain
be herself at once ; the Cortes must save her.
Yet the battle of Talavera did much for Spain ;
tresulted in repelling the enemy, and was felt b
France "as a deep wound !" Except there had .
fought that battle, the enemy would have overrun
southern Provinces of Spain, or made an irrupt'
into Portugal. France was from that time limited
military operations, both against Portugal and S.
Lord \Vellington's objects were, to arrest the fu
progress of the French arms in Spain, and especiall
to exert himself for the Protection of Portugal.
his Noble Brother bad done. Portugal had been
sentially assisted by the battle of Talavera ; for .•
army was now in such a state, that, joined with
British, it might be successfully opposed to anyfor •
which the enemy should employ against her. IL
Noble Brother asked for their Lordships Thanks, e
he deserved those Thanks as much as any Co.,
mender who had acquired them by his own valour
or meritoriously inherited them through the valour
his ancestors.
Earl- HARROWBY rising, adverted to one
Earl Grey's observations : when an explanation •
given by the latter Nobleman.
The LORD CHANCELLOR being now a"
:o put the Motion before the House,
Lord GRENVILLE interposed. His Lordshi,
regretted the refusal of the information moved for b
his noble Noble Friend (Earl Grey) on the last night.
Never was such information more desirable than a'
this moment. After all that had been said as to
battle of Talavera, the merits of a General were ne
confined to the day of battle. It was an adniirablecharac
teristic of the great Marshal Turenne, and one whi
he felt at his heart, that he was said to be avaricious'
the blood of his soldiers. The victoryofTalaver.a was
vaerretepdu los en,
therlcit
ma i vs
ci cotnodruyc. t
oHf His
noi
srtdesrhsi,pesstpi lel
cai
ally
ter what had just transpired from the Noble Mar
quis ( Wellesley), in confiding the British armies t..
the Spanish Junta. He also suspected the success'
any'future co-operation between the forces of Gre'
Britain and those of Portugal.
The Lord CHANCELLOR now put the Vote
Thanks to Lord Wellington, which was carried wi"
out a division ; as were also the Thanks of the Ho
to the Officers and Men serving under the co
of Lord Wellington, at the battle of Talavera.
The House adjourned till Monday ; for which ela I
there is notice of a motion for a vote of thanks to Ad.
miral Lord Gambier, on account of the attack OM
enemy's fleet in Basque

A requisition has been signed for the purpose al
calling a public meeting of the Electors of Westraili
ster, to consider the propriety of a Petition to tit!
KING, and another to the House of Commons, on*
subject of a Reform in the State of the Represent"
tion of the People in Parliament.
The name of the Hon. THOMAS BRAND Was
ted in the List of the Minority yesterday.
Notice has been given to the holders of bills on/
Ordnance (Nice, that they will be paid °Atheist
February,
?EVE Y iNE

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