Star.
London, England, 1818-03-06 00:00:00

last yeti' ter tilt Eittipadiesti At:El Old he de* tett
,1411ritistified in iraysni done, SO. He thought Sub-
'es'AnAs 110 isiVeed the oorTeetness Of. tire Re-
on Which that &bi- ore was adopted; and he
did not "conildetertht eireitinsfruice of there having
been no more Reanidable rising of the people any
proof against the eeoliesity of the measure. Upon the
grounds that ub Parliamentary foundation had been
laid for the motion, he should oppose it.
Lord LASCELLES thought there was to found*
tion for the Motion of the honourable Gentleman,
and he was persuaded that the . Hon. Gentleman
had himself abandoned it. The Noble Lord entered
into a defence of General Byng, who, he said, had
combined the characters of citizen and soldier ; and
he was happy in having this opportunity of saying,
publicly, that, in his opinion, General 13yng was en-
titled to the thanks of the peaceable inhabitants of
the counties in which he had acted, for his prompti-
tude ; and also, that the deluded people themselves
were under infinite obligations to him for having pre-
vented them, by his vigilance and promptitude, from
running themselves into danger. On the subject of
spies, he had no predilection for them any more than
the Honourable Gentleman had, or did he think that
a Government was justified in sending spies into the
midst of an inflammable body to irritate them ; but
where was the proof that Government had done so
on the present occasion, or that spies hid been
im-
properly employed? There had been petitions, in-
deed, presented to the House, stating that fact ; but
who did those petitions come from? why, from per-
sons implicated irt treasonable pi:sakes. Had any
mhers complained of the improper employment of
spies ? and surely the House would no: decide on
the testimony of persons so prejudiced as all these
petitioners wet e.
Lord MILTON thought there was already suffi-
, dent information before the Howse to justify a call
for further enquiry. The conduct of Government
was most extraordinary ; they joined badly in the
cry against Spies, yet they would not allow the con-
duct of Spies to be enquired into. The House wai
allowed to enquire into the expenditure n: the Civil
List, into the Army Estimates, &c.; but the system
of Espionage was that alone into which tie profane.
eyes of the House of Commons were not allowed to
pry. The Noble Lord commented in str ,ng terms
on the system of employing Spies, whit':, he said,
must always have the effect of exciting a jealousy in
the minds of the people injurious to the Government,
Lord STANLEY did not accuse Government of
having employed Spies, but lie did ',lime them for
encouraging the employment Of them by persons
acting in subordinate offices; and for giving too eat'
a confidence and belief to the. information whichthey.

derived from such sources. He thought further
en-
quiry was necessary ; and, impressed with that opi-
nion, he should support the present motion.
Mr. BENNET did not now inquire whether the
Report of this House of Parliament or of the other
was well founded. But the question for considera-
tion was, whether the Honourable Members of this
House had laid such facts before the House as called

proenaded to &teed the matte of deveritmeati who
were bottnd, in the discharge of their day, to adopt
every possible Means of obtaining inkensetion *bed
they had reason to believe mischief was ht comes*,
plation. The Right Hon. Gentlemen, in support of
his argument, cited the opinions of Lord Holt and
Lord Chief Justice Eyre on this subject, who held,
that in cases of treason, accomplices in treason giving
information of the plans of their accomplices, should
be encouraged to continue amongst them still, and
thus so obtain the means of giving still further iofora
mation ; and nothing mots had been done with rr
spect to Oliver ; • and whenever the question respect-
ing his employment was broughtforvrard, he should
be prepared to answer it ; and he now challenged
the inciitry. With respect to Mitchell, there was a
warrant mat bamainst him previous to' the 29th cf
Aprils on which day Oliver left London. AU the
instruction givetito,Oliver was, to bring back a true
and faithful report of the state of the country.
Mr. W. SMITH said, he had been informed that
Oliver's character, not only amo his credibility as a
witness, but• as to his moral discharge of the most
trifling duties of life, was impeached; and that he
had for a long series of years been in the habit of
defrauding his employers. For this reasOn it was
that he would vote for this inquiry, being persuaded
that if inquiry was instituted he would be found
wholly unworthy of credit. He had received his in-
formation from the most respectable sources. One
person Nra C a partner in a respectable' commercial
house in London ; one an attorney, 'and a third the
person who had formerly been his employer ; all cf
whom were ready to come, forward. and state, that
they had never met with a man of such plausibility
of manners, united with such a total disregard of
every moral duty. He• had been informed by his
employer, that in the course of a service of ten years
Oliver had defrauded him, by false entries, of 5001.
His defence was error of account; and he brought
his own daughter forward to swear to certain facts,
which she afterwards declared were false, but that
she had sworn to them by direction of her father.
Mr. BATHURST said, it was certainly true that
a dispute had al isen between Oliver and his employer,
which w.ts made a subject of reference, and the re-
sult of that reference was, that Mr. Oliver was in
arrear to his employer 200!. but.the arbitrator at the
same time ordered that Oliver's employer should pay
all the costs of the proceedings. The Right Hon.
Gentleman entered at some length into a justification
of Oliver's- character, and 'again repeated, that be
should be ready to enter more fully into the kuestien,
whenever any Gentleman thought proper to bring the
subject forward. In justice to Mr. Oliver, it ought
to be stated, that his:employer obtained a rule of
. _

Court to set the award aside. Mr. •Oliret
cause against that rule,, which ryas- discharged eith
costs, th:ver.undertaking not to bring -any future ac-
tion against his employer. He could not conclude,
without observing., that Ciendemea, before tkeybrought
forward charges so injurious to the characters of tn-
dividuals, should ascertain that theywere well fOunded.
Mr. TIERNEY, before he entered upon the.qUe--

far inquiry? He was of opinion the House had such titan, desired that the .motion should be read nom
information before it, and therefore he voted now the Chair, that Gentlemen might judge for them-
for inquiry. With respect to what had been said by selves; whether" it had or had not been fairly repre-
his Honourable Friend respecting Dewhurst, he was sented on the other side, -e-hen they hinted at a sup-
well founded in saying it. The Honourable Gentle- posed conspiracy against the character of a private
man opposite had said hr did not know who Dew- and " tutted-i4Mmti,individuals".llr..oliver.-vEHece
hurst was. He would tell the Honourable Gesitle• the Speal.er read the question Accordiaglys.'he
Man who Dewhurst was : Dewhurst was the pers,,n House would see, (said ..fr. Tierney), by referring to
who, having by his arts inveigled a number of poot the Motion, that the. conspirators spoken of by the
deluded individuals into a house, delivered them into Right Honourable Gentleman were composed of 42
the hands of the Police, having himself retired under persons, 21 Members of this House; and 21 belong•
pretence of lighting his pipe ; and, as he believed, ing to the other House. The real question for &i-
-the real name of this individual was Michael Hall. sion, however,. was not as to Spies and Informers.
Gentlemen opposite had talked of polluted sources but whether Informers of the two Houses were to be
of charge and information. It was well for the ern- supported by the House ? for if they neglected his
ployers and fitters out of Castles, Oliver, and others, Honourable Friend's motion, then they would go
to talk of polluted sources—(hear, hear).—He now the length of rejecting all enquiry. How stood the
called on the Gentlemen opposite to allow of investi- fact ? Here was the testimony •of the Borough-reeve
gation and inquiry ; and if they refused to allow it, he and 25 persons, who, if the Right Honourable Gent
would say, that it was their guilt which made them•re- tleman was to be credited, were nearly the whole of
fuse it, and caused them to fear to see the light.— the respectable population of Manchester, who would
He would ask the Noble Lord, and his colleagues, satisfy the House that the conSpirators,• as they were
what had become of Earl Fitzwilliam's letter of June called, were unjustly accused.—(hear, hear, hear.)--s
List ? He would not ask why • that letter had not The character of Lomax was bad ; but why, Waco bet.
been made public. It was not published, because was arrested with his coadjutors, did the Govern-
that publication would have opened the eyes of the merit set hiin at liberty on the following morning
public, and exposed the whole of their proceedings. after his arrest?" Dewhurst, whose name formerly
The Hod. Member then entered into a long detail of was Michael Hall, had, in the early course of his tra;
the facts attending what is denominated Oliver's ex- vels, found his way on board the Hulks.. Yet these
pedition ; detailed so fully in his speeches on this were the description of men to be protected. He con,
subject on former nights. He accused Ministers of demned generally the system of Spies and Informers,
having packed a Committee, and garbled and kept which had grown to an alarming height. The Right
back evidence ; and observed, he should be glad to Hon. Gentleman went over the various Petitions frond
know what had become of Mr. Carter's evidence, a Manchester, Yorkshire, &c. contending that the prac.
respectable Magistrate at Sheffield ? He could not tices of Oliver, in respect of his conduct in the North,
refrain front again observing on this extraordinary were abominable ; lie went down to that. quarter, pie.
circumstance, which he mentioned oa a former night, tending to be a delegate limn London, talks f. the
namely, that immediately on Olivet's being withdrawn, rising in London, and of there being 70,000 rwa
all, as if by er.Jrantment, became perfectly quiet. ready to co-operate with their friends in the country.
Mr. BATIIIII s-r defended the conduct of Go- This Oliver, under the mad, of rebellion, and clothed
re:1:111:T t and of Sir J. Byng, and commented on the under the protecting shield of Ministers, was stiffeied
extraordinary conduct now adopted by Gentlemen not only to entrap men into crimes, but also to carry his
opposite. A solemn petition had been presented to nefarious designs into eirect—sanctioned, approved (4-,
the !lease, complaining of Government for having and transmitteclby th.: Police Minister, with that oh-
employed as a Spy a yerson named Dewhurst, and ject. If they refused inquiry, what was the inference ?
that el:. man Dewhurst had been seen in Sir J. Why, that something lay hid which Ministers were
iiya 's ca:rilze: That fact was denied—Govern- afraid to reveal. the systeni pursued was one of
meat sJlemnlY denied any knowledge of such an in- espionage. The Secretary had Oliver for his Spy—.
dividual—gi's J. Byng denied knowing any person the Constable had his—the Magistrate his Spy also,
of the name of Dewhurst—the Magistracy of Man- and so on ; so that however much we despised the
chester knew no such person ; and the Honourable French Police, which proceeded on espionage, it was
Gentleman, not being 'able to get over this denial, lamentable truth, that Great Britain had trodden in
now came forward on behalf of his side of the House, their steps. He (Mr. Tierney) did not wish to speak
and said his name was not Dewhurst, his real name disrespectfully of the Hon. Member for Bramber,
was Mietaol Hall, or something else. The Honour- and certainly, there was no individual more capable
ah!c Gentleman to whom he alluded (Mr. Bennet) of giving effective support to Ministers and their
had great zeal in the cause which he advocated measures in the House ; or more willing to do so
but he must be allowed to say, the Honourable when he happened, by accident, to be out of it.—
Gentleman's zeal frequently got the better of his (Cheers and laughter.) What his vote would be upon
discretion—(Near, hear, hear.) It did so in the in- the presmt occasion it was not, perhaps, easy to
stance of the witnesses, whose affidavits the Hon. prophesy. If he had given a distinct and unequivo-
Gentleman said he had, but whose names he withheld cal pledge upon any question, he would doubtless re-
.---now these persons stated conversations which had deem it ; but hese it was impossible to speak from
• taken place at meetings where Oliver was ; these per-' experience, the case was of such rare occurrence
sons, therefore, were present, and afterwards came and generally, his phraseology was happily adapted to
, gave information to the Hen. Gentleman. It seemed, suit either party ; and it now and then he lost the
I therefore, that the Hon. Gentleman didnot depend:on balance of his argument, and tended a little to one
Government Spies, but had Spies and Informers of his side, he quickly recoveaM himself, and deviated as
own—(s general kwgh)--and these Spies- and Infer-1 much in. an.opposite direction as would make a it
mere of the Honourable Gentleman formed part of division of his speech on both sides. (C2::tin:te.-!:7:ecii.)
the combnstibles of which so mach had been heard He knew that some motions were opposed, and per-
!—(tlear, hear). The Right Hon. Gentleman then haps rightly, on dr: gr,..7at,d of their being pasty