Star.
London, England, 1817-02-01 00:00:00

.pear upon the parchment,. and another day, tharMent-
bers must read every petition they present, ark would
be rejected?—Ober, hear.)-Were such formalities
to stand between the People and their Representa-
tives ? and if not complied with, were the former to
be dismissed without a hearing? Was that a time to
erect such a barrier ?—(Hear, hear.)—He had already
Isaid, that he had 'mused extracts from the Petition,
and that he knew its purport; but -he was sure, if
either himself or the House must read every word'
contained in the Petitions he had to present, it would
occupy the greater part of the Session. He should
say nothing more than merely to move that the Peti-
tion be Jsrcugbt up.
Mr. CANNING.—'" In order to explain clearly 1
the nature of the present question, and that the House
may distinctly understand my motives in the course
I mean to pursue, I request you, Sir, to lay d••wn
again, as explicitly as before, the practice of Parlia-
ment upon these occasions." .
The SPEAKER.-46 I am at all times ready.to
obey the wish of the House. Ido undoubtedly con-
ceive it is the bounden duty of every Member who
presents a Petition to this House previously to read it,
that he may know its eontents."—( Wear, km..)
Mr. CANNING.—"" Then, upon that ground, Sir,
and from a complete conviction that we must abide
by our rules, that we must uphold your authotity, if
we would not compromise our own dignity and, ho-
nour, as well as the safety of the Commotion, I inert
unwillingly, hut forced to it by the Honourable Ba-
ronet himself, object to the bringing up of this un-
read Petition.

Mr. BROUGHAM—se No man, Sir, haspore re-
spect for your authority and your decisions in this
House, than I have • but I implore you, as you value
the privileges of Parliament, and the integrity of the
Constitution—as you value the regularity of your own
proceedings, to pause in the course in which'the zeal,
, and, I will say, the presumption of.the Hon. Gentle-
man has hurried you. He haw appealed to your',
dictum, as if it were one of the Standing Orders of
this House. But, Sir, notwithstanding the respect
duly paid to your high authority, he ought to have
known that the mere dictum of an individual can
have no force till it has been put to the vote, and
sanctioned by a majority of this House. Bat thea
the Right Hon. Gentleman began with a questions
whi-h shewed that he was completely ignorant of the
mode of proceeding in such a case. The manner, too,
in which he spoke was to be noticed. “ I give you
warning." said that Right Hon. Gentleman, a that
you may come with petitions from 504000 persons,
but before you present them I will put corms
ques-
tions to you." Now he (Mr. B.) would say. slsat.the
Right Hon. Gentleman could not put any question
to a Member. (Hear, hear!) He might inde.d apply
to the Chair to put a question, and (ben if the House'
pleased the Speaker might put the question. (Hear.)
It was for the House, and not for the Right Hon.'
Gentleman, or any of his various colleagnes—(hear,
luar)—or any other Member, to pit a Tendon ;
and he believed it would be the rst instance on re-
cord, of a question being put to a Member, even from
the Chair, when that Member was not before the
House as a witness. But even after all this, the
Right Hon. Gentleman would pot another question,
which might be well called the cross question, 4. Have
you read the petition ?" By what right could such
a question be put ? Where was the authority I—
' Where .was the precedent for it? A greater inno-
vation never was timelines& (Hear, hear, hear.)—
'When this question was allowed, another naturally
followed,"Does the Petition appear to be in proper
language." This most extraordinary innovation, in-
troduced at such an estraqydinary time, when by far
l the greatest proportion `e whole population of
the kingdom was at Jahn the House with the
detail of their. grievances—when, above all other
times, the doors of that House ought to be thrown
open to receive the complaints of the people, was a
matter of moat serious consideration. And he im-
plored the Speaker and the House to pause, before
the introduction of a new practice was permitted, of
which there was no trace to be found in the Records
of Parliament, or the Standing Orders of that House.
Mr. B. BATHURST.—The Honourable and
Le rrned Gentleman who spoke last, had treated the
question in a very extraordinary way, and had en-
tirely departed from the original question, which was
.imply--. 4 That the petition be brought up." It
was said that a question to a Member was to be put
by the order of the House from the Chair. In strict
formality this was certainly true. But was it abso-
lutely necessary f %Vas it not one of those forms
which might, without the slightest loss of dignity,
and with much convenience. be dispensed with ?
Was if any novelty to dispense with it ? The no-
velty w.ts, that any Gentleman presenting a petition,
should make it a part of t.is speech on the occasion
to say, positively..." I have not read this petition."
(Hear, hear.) This was really the only novelty. An
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Abercrombie) had al-
luded to the opinion of Mr. Whitbread, that in pre-
senting petitions a Member did not make himself an-
swerable for their contents. For his own part he
could only say, that he never had heard Mr. Whit-
bread express such an opinion. But he was Very end-
fident that he had often heard him say, on presenting
a petition to that House, that he had looked it over,
and found nothing offensive in it. And the same
thing was always expressed or implied by any Mem-
ber who presented a petition to the House. But it
was said, forsooth, that there was no written law for
this. Was it necessary that every rule or regulation
should be written ? Were those laws only to be con-
formed to which were written laws ? Where was the
written law to be found that the eldest son should in-
herit real property ? and yet upon the principles of
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
Brougham) this was an innovation, because it was
not a written law. (Hear, hear.) Where were we
to look for laws but in the immemorial usage, the
experience, and the wisdom of slur ancestors ? In
common pat lance it Might, with perfect correctness,
be said, that a question was put by one Member to
another, although in point of strict, though (in com-
mon cases) unobserved formality, it was supposed to
be put by the House theaegh the Chair, at the sug-
gestion of the Member ; and thif might be correctly
said iu the same way that a Member would—“ I win
not have a division." and so on. When it became the
practice for Members to get bundles of petitions
wholesale, which, when they come to pfrisent to ties
House.. they say they have pot read, by such t tee.
Itssion they not only shewed disrespect town* the

~, but also towards the . House. It was
[iighly proper that before receiving a petition the
House should have the sanction of at least one of it,
Members, that it contained no improper matter. He
denied that any thing was said or done whit' spewed
that the House was not inclined to throw its doors
open as widely as possible to the petitions of the
people, but it rested with the mover of a petition, if
knowing oilers his motion was to be made, and the
rules of the Assembly before which he was to ap-
pear, it rested entirely with the mover by complying
with those rules, to have his petition received, or by
neglecting them to have it rejected.
bit SAMUEL RUMILLY, before the question
went to the vote, declared his anxiety to state the
ground of his decision. He would, in the first place,
contend, that it was the duty of a Member to read,
previously to its being presented to the House, any
petition that he introduced. Whilst, however, he
considered such the duty of the Member, he must
still vote for the reception of the present petition, be-
cause, from circumstances, the rule should nothe in-
variable. There might be cases, where petitions on
subjects of pressing importance were very numerous,
where great inconvenience would ensue from reading
every sentence as was declared by the Honourable
Baronet in the present ease, in which the rule might
be related with reasonable indulgence. 'Besides, the
Honourable Baronet had also apprised the House
that he look7d. over the petition generally, and
that he believed it was inoffensive in manner and
substance. This assurance he must Lel, under all
eirometances, seificiect ; aid !As begged to put it to
the House, when it considered the agitated state of 1
the country, and the severe pressure under which all
classes of society suffered, and none in a more aggra-
vated degree than the petitioners, whose prayer was
before them—when it was recollected how strong
an anxiety was expressed, in the discussion of a for.
mer evening, for that House to diffuse and encouraye
a good temper amongst the people, whether they ought
now to go out of their way on disputable points, par-
ticularly when aware that such conduct would be re-
presented abroad in the worst possible way, and thus
widen the breach between Parliament and the people,
if such breach even now existed.—(Heari hear.)
Lord LASCELLES.—As the present petition
proceeded from a part of the county which he had
the honour to represent, he expressed his desire to
press a few observations. He believed the Honour.
able Baronet who presented the petition was placed
in a situation by no means sought by him. He was
strengthened in that opinion by the manner in which
the Honourable Bennet disclaimed the inclination
to support any violent language or conduct, under
the pretext of petitioning that House. The only ques-
ties at present arose from a point of form, and in
thot view be was-solicitous to state his sentiments in
the.most dispassionate manner. In the first place he
begged to impress upon its attention, that though the
language of dime petitions might be•violent, it was
not thence to be inferred as fact, that the real senti-
ments of those who signed them were equally so. The
House should distinguish between the violence of
those under whose dictation and controul these peti-
tions were drawn out, and the want of know-
ledge of the majority of the persons whose
sig-
natures were affixed t• diem for Abe' truth was,
tliat in the present great distress, the sufferers were
generally assured that all their evils, all their com-
plaints would speedily disappear, and &heir situ.ttivo
in life be considerably improved, by what was termed
Parliamentary Reform. In the present feeling of
their distress, numbers were thus influenced to lend
their names to applications neither duly considered nor
wisely digested. He not only spoke on this subject
from his own information, but from that of many
persons acquainted with that pan of the county, and,
the uniform impression was, that no violence of feel-
ing actuated die great body f the petitioners. He had
hibaself been applied to by letter, to know whether he
would present petitions preying for Parliamentry Re-
' form. So far as hicoold recollect the tenor of his answer
it was,. that he could have no objection to present
any Petition to Parliiment that was consonant with
its acknowledged usages—that as to the necessity of
what they termed Parliamentary Reform, he did not
agree with them—and that if they felt that their
views would be better supported by putting their
Petitions into the bands of other persons, they woulJ
exercise their own discreuon-(Hear, hear, hew%)
Having stated these observations, arising from his
local knowledge, be would feel great regret in seeing
the House pressed into a contest with the Petitioners,
and in this feeling be was more solicitous, because he
was convinced that from the character and conduct
of the leaders, that many petitions were worded with
the bupe of their rejection—Wear, hear.) —Whilst,
however, he expressed such washes, he would be the
last man, though there were at the doors of that
House the Same number of individuals as were allu-
ded to by the Honourable Baronet (Burdett) to ad-
vise it, to diminish one atom of those acknowledged
privileges, persuaded as he was, that in yielding, it
would but lead to repeated auression. Under all
the circumstances, he trusted the Honourable Baro-
net would not, and he used the phrase in no invidi-
ous sense, press the paint with any pertinacity—
(Neer, hear, and a:mural call for Sir F. Burdett.)
Sit F. BURDE r r expressed a desire, after the
candid statement of the Noble Lord, to set him right
as to the expression used by him in the rally part of
the debate. He did not disclaim any identity of his
opinions with the Petitioners—:he never wished to be
understood as not bound to support the prayer of pe-
titions, which he still thought it his duty to present.
Whenever the great question of Parliamentary Re-
form cam before them, he wished to give it the
fullest and most dispassionate consideration—it was
his aim to afford it a, practicable and efficient opera-
tion, and he trusted, in concurrence with the gra.tt
bulk of the enlightened and eitional who felt it, n -
Comity', to discuss the necessity and merits without
any acrimonious hostility. With such views, lie mu.t
be extremely unwilling to press that Hoare into any:cootest with the peopfe4—she present question was
raised because he thought.the principle of petitioning
was involved. He had, however, during the debate
read the Petition, and therefore the point in dispute
was removed—He had answered the Right Hun.
Gentleman opposite with some warmth, because he
thought him intemperate and unjust in his remarks.
' (Coasideraiis cheerio:).
Mr. CANNI&J rose to explain, and said he
would not press the reading of the other Petiticipc:
he meant smiting personal in his observations.

Lord COCHRANE objected to the
been laid down, imposing upon a Memi.
sity of reading Petitions before he present
Cases might occur, in which a Member
ceive so many, or have so little time,
not peruse them all, and toils the .
suffer because the represelitatiees of li
hot learn their grievances. He could
propriety in objecting to Pet lions for
the ground that the Commons' House,
constituted, did not represent the Nat
such allegation could alone justily a call
That the House, which was filled wit
and Pensioners, should dislike accusation,
and corruption was natural I but it wi
to hear what their constituents had to
them. He hoped the day was not far
such accusations would not be brought
liament, because such reproaches would
He hoped he would succeed in the mot
he bad given notice, on the subject of
Pensions held or drawn by Members of
If Ministers consulted their own credit,
be beforehand with him, and accomplish
which he had in view, before they were
either by a •ote of the House or the
Country.—(Hear, hear.)
The Petition was then brought up, read
ed to lie on the table.

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented
Petitions from inhabitants of the town
bourhood of Habra:, two of arm pray
rQrsal suffrage and annual Parliaments. '-
annual Parliaments and suffrage co-e:tens
direct taxation.—They were all read, an(
lie en the table.

} Mr. BROUGHAM had no wish to
House from acceding to the proposition
the Petition on its taole. But he felt ii
every friend to the people—every man
the protection of popular rights—every
disposed to alleviate the severe pressure
afflicted the country, to low no t.me or
in counteracting the wild, tl.e mischievois,
surd, nay, blundering delusions so unhappily
ing a great and respectable part of the e
from the true path of relief And safety—(
frost all sides). No man could entertain
erect for a great proportion of the persons
d those Petitions. His confidence in
wine
views made him the more acutrl
**Union from any practicable course of -
they were so blindly pursuing. He felt
they were distressed—bow aggravated
ings, how natural were their complaim
aware that they flew to Parliament. uni
and expectation of obtaining real and sui
lief. Good GOD, can they anticipate sr
from universal suffrage ? The thing wal
Me, but were it possible would it be a
would be the opening to unparalleled tm
so strong existed the delusion, that the vet'
before the House prayed for universal
the indubitable, imprescriptible right for
ancestors had shed their blood. When w
'ever exercised, or where was the theatre
Joe? Do they fancy it existed in the rei
hn, vas tstabl-shed in the contest
the First ? If any individual can produce
out of any history of the country in Nippon
a Odic, the., he would ur.!,, observes
wholly escaped his historic research, at
feel gratified us being allowed access to the
(Hear, hear).—Pln the ancient periods so
pealed to, the great body of the people,
franchises and vutes, were in a state of
holden as beasts of burden, under the et
disposal of a small proportion of their Chi
people of England, in place of being me+
bitterness of their sufferings with coati,'
proof, were enlightened on the prevaili
were the true merits of their constitutional
plained—and were they rescued from the .
leaders, who either from ignorance or worse •
were misleading them, the Constitution would
true improvement, and the public mind
directed to the salutary And substantial
their distress—(Rear, hear.)

THE A DDRESv.
Lord VALLETOR 1 appeared at the
the Report of the Ad,tress.
On the motion that it be brought up,
Sir ROBERT HERON said, ate argument.
had been advanced in support of the Ameedale
le :tented yet wholly unanswered.—(Heardiere.
.. Right Mai. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Cattq
had indeed made a great flourish on tae last teg.
this debate. At one moment he appeared so t.
with the Amendment. that every body *well
would have had the bent fit •of his swum
hinted at the resignation of his office, probai
making a merit of necessity, and wishing to do, is,
some degree of eclat, that which he foresaw mast b
been the natural consequence of that Amendt
being carried. At length it appeared that the Ni
Hon. Gentleman's arguments, if such they rook
called, were as foreign from an approbation of
subject matter of the Address, as they were to ti
adoption of the Amendment. In the course et r
Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, he seemed it
time at a loss where to fix his points, until at I..st
struck upon the question of Reform—then he e?:
tis element—then he mounted upon h;s •
agitated and filled by the iuspiration of his ti,nsi,
launched into the ocean of his preqical fancy—,
poured feral ensanguined cloud.—cubsoi tray fl a':
before his eatrancee vision until twilight niomentart
obscured them—crowds of robbers and assaasms pe,
pled his fertile conception, and were :associated ve;
and relieved by Rein: mers and hobgahlins—L ask:
Of such materials was the Right Hon. Ceettuetnit.
speechfursmed.—.(Hear, hear.)—ln plain truth,.
Was evident that nothing could be urged against I
strong grounds of the Amendment. Its gateau
of grievances was not exaggerated, nor ?ere
strong arguments refuted:—(Hear, hear.)—He
Robert) wai not a man who wished to press de.r
dency upon the people ; but he ceuld not 1j;
from expressing his belief, that if th.: Gcveroai;
the country persevered in the course they had
years pursued, no man could be found b.) st.
as to believe that the interest of the.Natto"''l
could any longer.be paid : the consequence the)
mutter:ince in this squandering system mail 17
dunes:is than a national bankruptcy.—Viorir
I. such 111 &Litt: of. things, what a just chop

e rule dot 11,
ober the nee..
wined them,
ber might T.
that lie
• uhject
t• sh-oplc
I not sre ae
rr Rooms, L:
as at prefer,
ation, becao,
ill for R-form.
rich Sinecinists
ons nt vendii:r
was their duty
to any again&
distant as
t against
be rerno-;a:.
°tam of
if Pl.tres
of the If,xic
t, they shou'd
h those (4jert:
!re compdtd
e voice of t'ae
ead and order.
ted three rein
wn and neigh.
**lt Int sal.
lr and ehe for
extensive, sity
Ind ordered to
to detain the
ion for laying
it the duty of
rt interested 4
man sincerely
are that nue
K opportitnly
terms, the ab-
ppily
e c•imme-.4
(Hear, 14.2 r,
In • higher re.
mons who ha
in the honest
cutely fait
redress whi
bow severe!
1 their staler
lots. He w
oder the ho,
substantial re
such a res
as impractic
a remedy I.
mischiet.
very Petition
1 suffrage, a
Dr which the.
WAS this rip.
t of this snug
eign of
with Chalk
nee one proc,
ipport of sack
that k tou
and he wool.;
the au:hoi i:y
so fondly
le, instead. -I
of
controul
!hiefs. If :.e
treated in tie
lately and rc.
ling errors I
sal claims el
re controls'
rorae mauve-
would d”si, '
nd • would n
1 remedy t
I
the Bar: wit
guments thi
AmeEdnot,t
flair, sir rr.)
Ir. Cattt4.4?
! last ittg!.t
red so saki;
y tboryht
appat. 1:
ce, probato.
44 to dot, n'.;
aw must ha
A mendrue
tat the kg .
hey could
ibation 1,1
y were to tit
courtie of t!
seemed le: lk
ail at I:st
;en he v• at
i tii,,vd,
his mils', !,
al fancy—lt
of day fl
momenta
assai',illa Fez
sociatPel
tiS—L ;IS°
Grafitti'
:tia truth,
td against
Its ttateinC
nor vete
..)—He (.
press dep
cvcrnme r'
t.
vatiUrlt
1 molt
charge