Star.
London, England, 1820-10-14 00:00:00

TRIAL OF THE QUERN.

POOCEZDINOS OF YISTIODAV, SIS OVINUATION ?OW Tilt MIST PAWL.
—Looking at the case, olseerilnl the Noble Earl (Grey), con-
nected with all the circumstances, he could hot help canting to
the decision, that they were placed in such a situation that
they must deny justice ; and if be were driven to vote, he
should say that he would not continue the proceedings on the
Bill. A word as to the Noble Lord (Lord Ellenhorough)
who had said that there were two questions before the House—
one as to the guilt or innocence of the Queen, another as to the
passing of the Bill. Ile (Earl Grey) had said at the beginning,
that these questions were necessarily distinct; but in the course
of proceedings which, with all their difficulties, they had chosen
for themselves, it was impossible to separate them. The first
question on which they had to decide was, aye or no, on the
second reading. The state in which they now were, only im-
pressed on bun the stronger conviction of all the evils which he
had foreseen and deprecated from the beginning, and which
could not be better described than in the words of a Noble Lord
on the cross-bench--that they were placed in a situation in
which, from their habits, they appeared to the Public to deny
justice—(Hear, hear).
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that if he felt the House
was in a situation in which justice could not he done, he would
say, " suspend the proceedings altogether;" but his Noble and
Learned Friend on the Woolsack had never asserted that justice
could not be done, but that allowances should be made which
might, us fact, turn out to be favourable to the Queen, and he
exemplified it in this way ;—they would be bound to give full
credit, as far as liastelli was concerned, to all that had been said
to impeach his character, though if he had been here those
things might possibly have been satisfactorily explained. The
question before them was, whether the absence of Rastelli
should induce them to put an end to the Bill ? Now, though
the fact affecting Renal was of a serious character, far from
anything affecting the Commission being produced, the reverse
rather was proved. Ile assumed, that the proceeding of Ras.
trill was improper, still the case did not rest on the evidence
thus procuted, but on evidence which had never been at Milan,
or if at Milan, had never been connected with persons, of the
character of Rastelli. On that evidence it was possible that the
House might find that the Queen was guilty of the charges.—
Ile would not pretend to say what would be the result, but in
the state in which they were, without any retrospect to the evi-
dence in behalf of the Bill or of the defence, would it be possi-
ble to satisfy the public mind without some decision upon it ?
Whatever questions might arise, it was a duty they owed to her
Majesty, which they owed to the honour of the country, and
to their own credit, not to shrink from the question !--(llear !
from the Duke of Clarence)—and it would be the most unfortu-
nate, ill-judged, and improper course, that could be adopted,
to smother the question of guilt or innocence, by mixing it up
with any considerations of expediency or policy. Some way or
other they should come to the conclusion of the question, whe-
ther the allegations of the preamble of the Bill were proved or
not--(Hear, hear !).—He bad already said, that if substantial
justice were defeated, by the absence of Rastelli, he would at
once consent to stop the proceedings; but their Lordships gave
the same weight to what was now asserted by the witness for
the defence, as if it were proved by Rastelli's admission ; the
end might be favourable to the Queen. As to the conduct of
the person who had sent Rastelli to Italy, he admitted, that if
he had done it for the purpose of withdrawing the witness, he
bad been guilty of a most flagitious act; yet, ill-judged, as he
(the Earl of Liverpool) thought it was, he believed that person
had no such motive—(Cries of" Maroc!").
The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, the proposition of
the Noble Earl (Carnarvon) arose in a complete misapprehen-
sion of the Learned Lord on the Woolsack. Ile had not un-
derstood the Learned Lord, nor could he conceive it possible for
hint to state, that substantial justice could not now be done. If
he had heard the Noble Lord sightly, be had stated, that what
had happened might turn out to be very favourable to the Queen.
The nature of the proposition which had been made was this,
that the whole accusation having been heard, and only one half
of the defence, they were to stop short, and not to bear the rest.
This remedy for the injustice to the Queen, was the grossest act
of injustice he had ever heard of, They had heard some time
ago, from the Queen's friends, that it was an atrocious proceed-
ing to adjourn a short time, after having heard the accusation, be-
fore they heard the defence; yet they now said it was an act of
justice to her to adjourn when one half only of the defence was
heard. Was there, on the contrary, an act of injustice more
atrocious? How could it he said, that because Rastelli had
been conveyed away, they should adjourn before half the de-
fence was produced? There was no person who bad an inte-
rest in the welfare of the accused who could recommend this.
The House had the interests of her Majesty, and also the inte-
rests of the Public to attend to, and they could not justly allow
the proceedings to remain thus imperfect.
The Earl of roIORLEY said be hoped to be spared the pain
of coming at that moment to a decision on the important ques-
tion submitted to them. The Report of the Secret Committee
was this—that it was important to the honour of the country
that the truth or falsehood of the charges against the Queen
should be fully investigated, and that it was the opinion of the
Committee that the best mode of proceeding was by a legisla-
tive measure. After that unfortunate necessity had been im-
posed on them, of ascertaining the truth or falsehood of those
charges, he knew of no mode so satisfactory as by the machinery
of a legislative measure, without intimating in the most remote
way what it might be fit for them ultimately to do in their cha-
racter of legislators. There would not be the slightest inconsis-
tency in proving the preamble and negativing the enactment of
the Bill, which struck a blow, in his opinion, at legitimate mo.
narchy. It was, he thought, highly necessary that it should be
declared whether it was meant by the Bill to affect the succes-
sion or nut. Their business, however, now was to ascertain the
truth or falsehood of the charges, and he humbly entreated the
Noble Earl not to press his motion to a division. He did not mean
to magnify or diminish the injury which was done to the Queen
by the absence of liaeteUi; but he thought, on every principle of
justice, that the rest of her defence should be heard.
Lord A LVANLEY.—" My Lords, after what I have beard
at your Lordships bar, I should not think it proper to proceed any
further till we have some explanation. I wish, therefore, to
know who the person was who sent the witness away?"
The Earl of LIVERPOOL.—" It was Mr. Powell"
Several voices.—Of the Milan Commission ?—(CriesiOnler!)
The Earl of LIVERPOOL.—" Yes."
Lord CAIRN AR VON.—" I have been applied to to withdraw
my Motion, but I have substituted, in the place of it, a Motion
to which no answer has been made, and to which, in point of
justice, I suppose, no Noble Lord will object, namely, that a
question might be put to her Majesty's Counsel, whether the
immediate measure of Rastelli not being forthcoming, is, in their
opinion, hurtful to her Majesty ?—No Noble Lord has said that
it was objectionable, and that we should not hear her Majesty's
Counsel, with respect to this great cause, at our bar, ewcially
after hearing the Noble Earl opposite, and the Noble Earl as
the cross-bench say that It is to the Queen's interest. That Mo-
tion I persist in, that Counsel be called in, and your Lordships
will then be better able to judge than I am; but even then,
though I am ready to state that nothing can alter my opinion,
not even the speech of Counsel, that we, for our own sakes, and
fur the sake of the country, ought not to proceed in this case
further. Yet, my Lords, I shall be guided by what I hear as
to the Motion I shall make with deference to your Lordships,
One word more let me add; when the Noble Earl on the cross
bench has said, that if we put an end to this we shall not satisfy
public feeling, I deny it. The Public end public feeling has
given an opinion on this proceeding—(Hear, hear, hear!) The
Public, I say, gave an opinion, a decided opinion, the first day
and the first hour that they knew that it was to be discussed.—
'l'he Motion then is, ' That that question should be put to the
Counsel, and that we should hear them as to the importance of
the measure.'"
The Earl of BLESSINGTON.—" My Lords, alloble Friend
of mine has, I think very properly, asked who the person was
who sent the witness away and the Noble Earl, with his usual
candour, has stated it to be Mr.' Powell. I happen to be per-
sonally acquainted with that Gentleman, and I should be sorry
that an impression was made in the House and the country that
it was possible, because he was one of the Milan Commissioners,
that he could possibly be employed to be a party in a conspi-
racy. I regret, as much, perhaps, as any one that knows him,
that he had anything to do with the Milan Commission. I am
sorry for It for many reasons. I am sure, if there is a conspi.
racy, it is one to impose on him, fir I am certain that he is not
wilfully a party to it."
Lord A LVAN LEY said, he only spoke from what had ap-
peared in evidence. He could not, forming an opinion on that,
think the sending away Rastelli was a mere error of judgment.
Lord HOLLAND—" My Lords, I owe it to myself, and to
the Noble Earl opposite, to assure the Noble Earl, that at the time
of, making the remark, and before he had delivered his speech to
the House on this subject, that I did not believe he was directly

or Indirectly a party to it. I founded the Opinion' that it could•
not be from that character which be has upheld so long; and
though I am placed in political hostility ,t4} the Noble Lord on
many times, yet I am'sure that there is, neither on this side of
the House, or the other, a man with *more honourable feeling—
(Hear).—l acquitted the Noble Lord then, and now, after what
he has stated, I distinctly acquit biro- of any participation in
anything liken conspiracy—still, my Lords, my feelings on the
subject are exactly and distinctly the same, and though- I ac-
quitted the Noble Lord of anything like conspiracy, I confess,
after hearing his speech, and after giving a few minutes calm re-
flection on the subject. I do think that the Noble Lord has
been occasionally, during the whole of this inquiry, making un-
dertakings, and promising more to this House than he has been
able to perform. I say tßil, because the Noble Earl has stated
distinctly that this proceeding has been culpable. My Lords,
if the Noble Earl, when he was asked if he thought he could
prevent the witnesses from being sent out of the country, had
said, I have nok the power by the Constitution of the country
to keep them within the Realm ; and if he had further said,
there are subordinate agents over whom I have no controul, or
whom I believe will not attend to that controul ; pty Lord!, in
that case, I do contend your Lordships would have come to a
resolution very different from that which you did. Your Lord-
ships did not take into your own hands the execution of that de-
sign, but you left it upon the assurance that the Noble Earl
would do as much as possibly could be done to prevent any such
event. My Lords, 1 believe that the Noble Earl has done, all
that he thought it necessary to do. He may have done all
that it was possible for him in his situation to do • but the
thing that the House required to be done has not been done,
therefore we are placed now in that situation on which I would
not cavil on words, as to whether substantial justice can be
done or not, or whether her Majesty's defence will be in-
jured: but the Court cannot perform that which my Noble
Friend states we are called on and exhorted to do by the Se-
cret Committee.—we cannot proceed to inquire into the pro-
ceedings with a satisfactory conclusion—(Rear, hear, hear).—
My Noble Friend on *e cross bench, with whom, as I know his
excellent qualities, I should say I differ with him on all occa-
sions with more pain than any other Noble Lord, from his ex-
treme good humour and kindness, and notwithstanding any inte-

rested manner in which he may express his-opinion, it makes it
no further pain than the deference one has for his judgment.—
My Noble Friend says, that it would be the greatest injustice
to her Majesty now to stop. I confess, my Lord', that I am
made of " sterner stuff" than my Learned Friend on these oc-
casions, for I have been ready from the very commencement to
wash the Bill, at any period and at any time, egtay—(flear, hear).
So, my Lords, if the motion had been persisted in, I certainly
should have given a vote for putting an end to the proceeding at
once. It is said it will be a great injustice to her Majesty to
stop the proceedings. The persons now say, who.are so pn;judi-
cious(y anxious for the kunour of the Queen, and that justice and
mercy mny be done to her, that to stop these proceedings would be
injustice to her. Now I conceive our duty is, to do injustice to
no one, but look to nothing more tban our own character. My
Noble Friend (Lord Lauderdale) says. that he never heard of
such a thing as stopping proceedings—he never heard of a per-
son being nonsuited, I dare say, for want of sufficient evidence;
but does my Friend mean to say, that he knows of no instance
of the breaking up of a proceeding, in consequence of some irre-
gular proceeding on the part of the supporters of It, without
hearing the whole, and without coming to an opinion of Guilty
or Not Guilty? The Noble Lord over the way (Liverpool)
says, that no case can be decided on without the formal sum-
ming-up, and saying, Guilty or Not Guilty. If a man is accused
of murder, it may in the course of the proceedings come out
that he is uilty of a crime of a different complexion. He has
the advantage of the declaration Guilty or Not Guilty, and if
there is one single item, one single proposition wrong, he has a
direct and complete acquittal. We were told that this was the
advantage on this occasion ; I thought it was an advantage, I
agreed that it was; but I thought it was no foundation, or eu-.
logium of the measure; I thought it an advantage on the pre-
sumption of guilt, but I thought it none on the presumption of
innocence. Now, my Lords, one word on another subject, and
I trust that I am as little disposed to deal in aspersions as any
man in this House. But, my Lords, I recollect an expression
of a Learned Lord, whom the Noble and Learned Lord on the
Woolsack has succeeded, namely, my Lord Thurlaw, which was
this :—" I will not take any notice of any persons, my Lords, on
this occasion, because I know if any one makes any observations
on the conduct of any person in any office, however subordinate,
one lays one's self open to bear a panegyric on all the persons of
that office, and to all the persons connected with the persons of
that office." My Noble and Learned Friend (the Earl of Bles-
sington) says, he knows the character of the person was so excel-
lent, that it must have been an error of judgment. The Noble
Lord opposite was called upon to name the person, and it turned
out that he was a person employed under Government in the.
-Milan Commission, and all men who serve under Government
are virtuous, kind, and everything that is excellent, and
therefore of course this person was SO !—(Lossel laughing).—
Now this Rastelli was one of the persons employed by the
Milan Commission; and I wish your Lordships to recollect
that the Noble Lord says the Queen has advantages—that she
has advantages, and allowances shall be made. Allowances of
what? Does the Noble and Learned Lord mean to say, that
when Rastelli is brought back that we are to hear his evidence?
Is that the allowance? For what he wanted was not merely a
contradiction of his testimony—(Hear, hear)—it was a conspi-
ray and a connexion with the Milan Commission, as connected
with that conspiracy, whether true or not I will not say. I
cannot say that itastelli not being forthcoming would incline
the Noble Lord to make such an allowance as to come to the
conclusion that there was proof of a general conspiracy proved.
He could not have meant to say that, and if he did not he says
nothing; because it is possible, by bringing Rastelli now imme
diately and confronting him with the witness at your Lordships'
bar, that a conspiracy might be proved, though I am not saying
it would. If it were proved that there has been bribery, and
that perjuries have been imported In whole cargoes, does any
man say that your Lordships would not immediately get rid of
the Bill ?—(Loud cries of " Hear, bear.")—Does the Noble and
Learned Lord mean that the Queen should have all the advan-
tages of an immediate examination at the bar? if not be means
nothing. In what situation are we now placed? We are placed
in a situation in which we cannot go on without the posaibilitl
at least of substantial justice being denied. To the accused it
may, I admit, operate advantageously;- it may induce men
to give a latitude to their vote, which they otherwise would
not give. That is always true, but that is always upon the sup-
position of guilt. If her Majesty had been guilty, she might
have gained some advantage from it. I put a case, that she has it
in her power to lay open the whole of this conspiracy, And o(
bringing it home to the conviction of every man in the House that
it is se. I then stand up, not even in mercy to the Queen, not ln
consequence of any wish of the Queen's Counsel, but I stand
up and say, that if we go on, we cannot lay our hands upon
our hearts and say, that we are quite sure we have done justice.
We are not following the dictation of the Secret Committee,
because we are now placed by our lathes in a very awkward
situation. My Lords, your Lordships might have placed the
witnesses in the custody, and under the protection of the House.
It might have been a harsh and inconvenient measure, but it
would have been a reasonable one, from the circumstances of the
case. Before we did so, we asked the Noble Lord on the
ether side, whether he had anything to suggest on that subject,
and be said he would do all in his power; now it appears that
one of the witnesses is not forthcoming, and if this is justice,
justice is very crooked. and narrow. 1 do think, if any allow-
Cue is given, it must be to that which is the marrow and soul
at the whole proceeding."
Lord ERI3KINE--" Although I have been at all times ready
to vote since the commencement of this proceeding to put an
and to this Bill, I have now an additional reason after what has
happened to-day. However, if my Noble Friend withdraws
his motion, I move your Lordships that thu question which has
beta suggested be put to the Counsel at the Bar now, that they
may have an opportunity of considering of it by to-morrow."
Earl GREY.--" I should wish Mr. Powell to be called to ac-
count for this proceeding."
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—" It is now half-past four,
and I should think your Lordships would think it better to ad-
journ till to-morrow."
Earl GREY said, he thought it was very material that he
should be examined now.
Joint Au.aw Pow= then appeared al the Bar, and was crammed
by Earl Gags.
He stated—l was employed In the Milan Commission.—
I am now engaged id conducting this prosecution. I heard
the rumination of Rastelli at this HOuse. I recommended h,b
being sent out to Italy, to assure the friends of the witnesses
now in this country, that they were well; and that the reports
in Italy of their maltreatment were exaggerated. I thought
it an act of humanity to do so.
Did you not know, by sending Rasta' out of the country, it

would be Impossible that he could attend here if called upon ?—;
RasteUi *rent away on the Thursday or Friday after the adjourn-
ment, and I thought be would be back before be could be want-
ed. 1 °Tiered hint to return by the :sd of October.
Whe did you see at the Foreign Office ?—Eirber Mr. Planta
or Lord Clanwilliam.
Did you state ayhe Foreign Office that he had been examined
in this Howe?—\o, but I believe that it was well understood
that he was.
Witness further stated, that he expected Rastelli to return
soon, as three messages had been sent after him; but he had
heard that he was very ill of a fever.
Szenteatri by Lord ALVANLET.

Did you ever receive any directions from his Majesty's Go-
vernment not to allow any witness to go out of this country?—
I do not recollect any specific one to that effect; but at the
time I sent liastelli I had not the least idea that he would be
called as a witness, unless, if the Bill passed this House, that it
should go to the Commons.
Then, Mr. Powell, am I to understand from you that no
such instructions were given ?—To me personally I do not re.
collect any specific instructions • I certainlywas present at the
debate in this House in which the Noble Earl at the head of the
Government had stated it to be the intention of Government to
take every care they could to prevent witnesses going out of the
country.
Knowing that, did you not consider it a piece of disobedience
to recommend this person to be sent out of the country ?—I
did not think it an act of disobedience ; I had a full expectation
he would have returned; I never would have consented to his
going, if I had supposed he would have been wanted here.
Have you any information to induce you to believe that Ras-'
telli will return ?—I have reason to believe, from the informa-
tion I have received, that be had been confined with a fever,:
and that he had been blooded ; but I have no reason to doubt
that he will return.

Mr. BIOLIGHA3I here begged the
standing near Mr. Powell, not to speak to him.
The Soucrroa-Gr.raziAL denied that he said a word to Mr.

who was

Could not the families of the witnesses be informed of their
safety equally effectually by other means—through the medium,
for instance, of Colonel Brown?
Witness proceeded—They were informed through the me-
dium of Colonel Brown, but 'till that was not satisfactory, as
I saw depositions from which it appeared that the most exag-
gerated reports respecting the danger of the witnesses continued
to be believed. _ _ _

By the Duke of HAMILTON.—Then you sent off this man
in disobedience of the orders you received?—l received no or-
ders upon the subject. I recommended the sending off Ras-
telli for the reasons I have stated, and I have no reason to doubt
his return.—Mr. Powell withdrew.

Lord ERSKINE suggested that the next step should be, to
put a question to the Queen's Counsel whether, in consequence
of Rastelli's not being forthcoming, they were desirous of having
the hearing of the case suspended for any given time ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that if the Queen's
Counsel should intimate such a desire, they would probably be
required to state their grounds and reasons for it, in which case,
the Counsel on the other side must also be heard, and it would
be thus impossible to come to any decision to-night, (it was then
nearly live o'clock), he therefore proposed an adjournment.
This was agreed to, and the House adjourned till to-morrow
(this) morning; at ten o'clock.—See the second page.