Star.
London, England, 1828-07-05 00:00:00

FRENCH PAPERS.

""'''4lol.'"'

TROIS Till OAZCYTIC DR FRANCE. JULY 3.
CONSTANTINOPLE, WAY 3.
A statement, proceeding from the office of the ['stand
Velar, gives the number of 177,050 men as the total
amount of the paidand unpaid troops that will he sent
into the field to oppose the Russians. The amount of
the paid and disciplined troops is given at 80,000 men.
Those not paid, and levied by the Paellas, amount to
9►!',060r; Among this number .there are 30.000 men
far the' defence of the frontier of Et zerum, 7,550 for.,
lis and the plains of Troy, 17,000 for the for.
tresses in Asia and Romelia, 15,000 for the d- fence of.
Constantinople, as many for the Bosphoru', 25.000 on
the Danube and insthe fortresses on that river, 15,000
'ht Silistrii, and 10,000 at Adrianople. . ,
VIENNA, Jvi'r 22.
Letters frOm Hermanstadt, received to-day, announce'
that Brailow .was 'probably taken by the Russians on
the 15th or 16th. Gbeurgeoo. which WAS invested by
General Roth, will however make a mote vigorous re-
siitance, because it can receive provisions and s einforce-
talents trilli• Rudschuck.' The same letters say that, a
corps. of Turks, which had been sent to pass the Da,
lathe, nearWiddea, had attacked the Russian advaneed
posts at Calera, on the entrance, rigkt of General Roth;
but that after a short esfgagement,lo which they' lost
many men, they had beea obliged tetake to flight and
cross the river. The toss of the Rusfmns is stated to
have been considerable. Nevertheless, as this WW
comes b' commercial letters, it cannot be implicitly
confided in. Letters from Oremsier say, that his Erni-
melee the Cardinil Archduke Rudolf. has been seized
with an iallammatido of the brans, which put his life in
• the greatest danger. He has received-the sacraments....
. the uhole country-Is plunged in affliction.
Views. Joni irr.—Metelliques tea—Bank Shares, 1079.
. imaccu Fvites—rltemesi, Five per Cents. i05f.50e. 65c. SOe:
Vents. i sf. 25c. 50c. 35c. .16c. 56c. 55c,---Bank

I3IPERIAL PAAILIAMENT.
„. •
HOUSE oF.-LORDS. JULY 4.
?HI Witlimum, criene.-sotto is atm
At one o'clock' this da‘y Mr. Holm conclotied ids reply in thie
Jong protracted case, sad their Lordships immediately proceeded
to pronounce judem•nt.
Lord H ED ES DA LF., in a speech of considerable length, stated
that the arguments of Counsel appeared to re* upon two grounds,
Ist, Whether the Coat of Chancery could exerdse jurisdiction in
separating a parent and his children; and, 241 p, .Thatrallowing
such right to exist, the ,circumstances of thiicise difftiot iwirramt
its being exercised. His Lordship adduced several cases, some of
which occurred upwards of a century and a half since, in which
the Court hail exercised Such jurisdiction, and he was most deci-
dedly of opinion that the Court unquestionably possessed that power.
As to the evidence in this case warranting the judgment pronounced
by Lord Eldon, a single extract from 111 letter written by Mr.Wel-
leaky to Mr. Pitman, the tutor of his children. would abundantly
satisfy their Lordships. That extract was as follows:—" There
are many which ought to he let alone; a Court of Chancery had no
right to interfere between a father and his children—they had a
right to be allowed to go to the Devil in their own way." His
Lordship concluded by moving that the judgment of Lord Eldon
be affirmed.
Lord MANNERS seconded the motion. He was quite sure
that the Court possessed the jurisdiction, and that the jurisdiction
was in the present case properly exercised.
The LOB D CHANCELLOR was decidedly of the same opi-
nion. The question was then put, and carried wan. diu.
His Royal Highness the Duke of CAMBRIPOZ took the oaths for
the purpose of voting upon this important question. •
The Marquis of Tw REDA LE presented a Petition from the
county of Oxlor.l.against the importation of Foreign Wool.
The Passage Teasels Licemin Bill, and the Alehouse Licenses
Bill, were severally read a third time and passed.
The Election Polls Bill was read a second time.
CURItrt*CY:
On the motion of the Duke of
.Wettntoron, the House resolved
itself Into a Committee on the Smolt Notes (Scotland) Bill.
The Earl of CA RN A RVON said, that the Bill appeared to do
more than was intended. A check ,upon a banker for four pound%
if drawn in Scotland upon an English banker, would come within
its operation. It was a Bill' highly penal, and might be con-
sidered as a trap for persons who might be drawn unwittingly into
its violation.
The Duke of WELLINGTON throfght the Noble Lord was
mistaken as to the effect of the Bill. Drafts upon Bankers would
be on the same ((Ruing after the pacing of this Act at at present.
The Earl of CA RNA RVON read the clause of the Bill to which
his observation applied.
Lord ELLEN BOROUG H said, that drafts from abroad were
not now legal. With respect to drafts drawn in Ireland or Scot-
land, if any Gentleman or other person tell inadvertently into er-
ror. no doubt relief would be afforded him.
The Earl of MALMESBURY Aid, that this might frequently'
occur. It was fit that it should be generally known that the opera-
tion of the measure was not confined to bank paper. If a Gentle-
man on leaving town forgot to pay one of his bills, and the trades,-
man wrote to remind hint of it, the natural course would be to
send back a draft upon his bankers. Yet this transaction would
subject the Gentleman to the penalty of the Act.
The Duke of WELLINGTON referred to a ClattllO of g for-
mer statute, which was word for word the, same as the present.
After a few words front Lord Faanurix, the Earl of Mimeos
purr' and the Earl of Rosst.rn,
Lord TENTER DEN said, that the inconvenience which the
Noble Lords were so antious to remove existed equally by the
present law. A penalty was now incurred by any person who
drew a check upon a banker, unless it was drawn within the did-
tance of eight or ten miles front the banker's residence.
The Earl of ROSSLYN apprehended the object of the Bill was
to prevent the circulation to any great extent of Beath Small
Notes on this side of the border, and not to punish any isolated and
accidental transaction of the kind which might take place. It
would for this purpose have been enough to empower certain official
persons to inform, without inviting promiscuous informers, and
stimulating their vigilatiee by giving them half the penalty. This
part of the Act deprived the bords of the Treasury of the power
to remit the penalty in any case of eonviction.
Lord ELLEN BOROUG H said, this mode bad been adopted
because it had been found in other cases effectual -to its purpose.—
The inconvenience to which the Nuble Lord had adverted bad not
escaped the notice of his Majesty's Government. . But these one
pound notes were so insinuating, that. Liordei to exclude thorn it
was necessary not only to abut the door but to stop up the key-hole.
It was intended, if poisible; to 'make EnglatittOtle polund-note-tight,
and this, he believed, could only be envied by adhering to the Bill
as it stood. •

Lord CAILNARVOig geld that, "the penalty would apply
ough the draft upon, a.baniter was dravin upon a stamp.
The LORD CH A NOELLOII observed, that it snight be drawn
a few days' sight,mid:would not then M. subject to a penalty.
The Clauses were alLagread to withont amendment, and the

Report was received. • • • • • • ,
On the motion of the Doke waxtbit-rom the House
.
resolved itself into a Committee on the Irish Promissory Notes Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that the object of the Bill
waito enforce the payment in gold of Promissory-Notes at-the'
place where they were issued. Sortie-of the banks employed agents
at markets and fairs, where they had no houses; and be therefore
proposed to introduce words to-limit the meaning of the clause to
the banking ham, or the branch banking hough where the notes
were Anted.

The Marquis of Lattimore and the. Marqpis.4(Apr imps seSl
verally expressed their approbation of the clause.
The Earl of ROSSLY N thought the tnessrataleubted to pro.
duce great inconvenience and loss to all banks having branches.
After a few words in reply from the Duke of. Wxy.tecTon, tlbe
Amendment was agreed to. • . '
The other clauses of the Bill were also agreed to, and the Report
was received. •

•
CONSTABULARY FORCE LIIIICAND).
The Marquis of LANSDOWN indeed for certain Papers re-
lating to the Conitabolary Force of the Coutify of Kilkenny. He
'Aid not apprehend any objection to his motion, as the same !alters,
or the' greater part of them, had been already' before the other
House of Parliament.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had no objection to the pro.
duction of the Papers moved for, but he did nut know that they
*ire all of them at present in England.
The Marquis of LA NSDOW N believed that they would be
found in the Irish• Secretary's office in London. The Member for
the County of Kilkenny had so informed hint. •
The House then adjourned until Monday.
• HOUSE OF COMMONS. •
A Person from the Treasury presented an Account of Glass
exported.
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition front a person
named Swainston, proprietor of the ship Bolton, complaining of
grievances, and praying for redress.
Mr. BILOWNLOW gaye notice, that he should on Tuesday
next move far leave tobring in a Drainage Bill for Ireland.
Mr. SCOTT presented a'Petition from Roxburgh in favour of
a duty on Foreign Word.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented a Petition front AlnWick, in
Northumberland, agaitit Slavery.-Ordered to be printed.
Sir JOHN COTTERELL presented a Petition from Kingston,
praying for protection to the Glove Trade.--rOrderedio be printed.
~ The. House went into a Committee on the Game Bill.
Mr. BENETT tbjectrd to a clause giving the Lord of the
Manor a right to permit any persons to kill Game over common-
Able lands.
After a few words from Mr. S. WOSTLITY, Sir C. Buanatt, Mr.
F.srgouar; Dr. I'HILLUiIORt. Sir J. MALcurross 1, Mr. Secretary
Pam., aed Sir J Waorrest.ev,
Mr. BEN ETT postponed bis Amendment for leaving out the
wcrd" commonable" until the bringing up of the Report.
The Report was ordered to be received on Monday neat.
Sir J. MACINTOSH complained that the Papers, in the case
of Mr. Belly, which he brought before the House some time back,
were not yet ready.
The SPEAKER said no blame could attach to the printer, who
had never been so pressed as he was this Sssion. /The Finance
Committee, now sitting, would bear him out in saying, that the
mass of matter, and the.expedition with which it wairequired,vrere
unprecedented. This might be an excuse for the delay of some
papers. This be thought himself bound to say, in justice to a most
assiduous Officer, whose accuracy was as remarkable as his dispatch.
Sir J. MACINTOSH said he Tooke merely front an appre-
hension that the object of the pap, litiiiight be defeated it' longer
delayed. The Hon. Gentleman co,..luded by* presenting a Pen!
titan from one Intuited and five persons, now Students of Anatomy
In Paris, complaining of the difficulty of procuring subjects for
anatomical studles'in this country.—Referred to the Committee. •
The same lion. Alsagsaa then presented three Petitions spirit
Slavery froM the County of Banit.—Ordered.to be printed.
$:•
DANISH CLAIMss. • • ,
S4I • NTOSH said, he now rosetc, bring for-
. ir
wad elsobject of importani . lithe facts were tr: '
.
they a clains..to ,the. interposition of
Howsiktheselseinit• AO legal means of redrus temaittingi
opea. The tang:ober,. Air. Stritlitts, Was one otthe
. . .
'few now surxiirtog.w3lP suffered 1544ef tne' war.ith,
Denmark in 1807. 'the greaser put of the othca ciai
ants were either dead or preveoted bj watt of means

from prosecuting their lsam;nistsa'llas well
aegunioteawiththec claims.
nce it
c
allies with Detimark in 4807. He shnold n
ea whetherstancthes i n this court
hostility. stiYwis l
91rIvieas. y flat
n ju.sl ifih
t al. et'sd
•P
• in Denmark
TBhreitiKshingsuefbi.D.ctesnmark confis.-
eath et
e d all Petitioner
the
properly but their.
claims. The consequence was, that Brit
their
ish merchants
send Norway, A
lost their claims on Danish subjects and their property
also. At that time six paper dollars were considered,
pAa
pfteerr, w
threea r ds, nunconsequencepa
r
equal to a
and. The payment of two
and a half per cent. thus became a discharge for the,
dwe
ep
rrpoeec equalui
ant o ns t etoorfl iant hgpios
;
odfoltlahres
fell amount of one hundred pounds. The Peritioneri
and others laid their complaints before the Govern.:
meat : they were told that in any future negociation
for peace, their case would be considered. This na.,
turally. relaxed their exertions. Another circumstance:
which inspired them with confidence was, that a;
large seizure was rn.de cf Danish property in the ports
of this country, amounting to 1,200,090/. which was'
called Droits of Admiralty and Droits of the Clown..
He would appeal to the House whether the grdund
always urged for retaining such droits was not, that it
afforded the Crown the means of making compensation
to its subjects for what they might hive lost by hostility
with a foreign State. These persons, therefore, thought
that they had a just claim on this fund at the peace.
The droits, however, were then disposed of for other
purposes, and were quite exhausted. By the seizure of
Danish ships in the British ports, the means were takeu
away of satisfying British claimant!, He would assume
:that these droits were 'on 'the *Atilt propel lipped
•hut still part should have bran employe to sati fy
English creditors. The twentieth part would have been
sufficient fit. that purpose. A Treaty was concluded
in 1814, and here this Government had an paortunity,
iif extending some relief to these. claimants. He would
not enter into the circumstances of the Treaty ; but he
considered Denmark as having been treated with less
justice than any other European monarchy in the ge;
neral arrangement. If the claim here was unjust by
the Law of Nations, England would have been wrong
to press it. He held in his hand a report r f a case, that
of Woolly and Oxley, which was tried in-the year
1817, and the judgment of Lord Ellpnberough 'lent to
prove that the conduct a f Denmark eras a contravene
tion of the Law of NatiOns. Lord Elliman:trough rested
his opinion on the-praetice cf oldie tun:leen and eivi-
fixed warfare. He held that the Danish Ordinaince'rf
1807 was a contravention of the • Law of Nations.
Upon this judgment he (Sir James Mec4atosh)" rested
the wool - rf his case. The negociatrir, therefore, at the
Trea:y of Kiel, should have enforced indemnification
for the losses sustained by British subjects from that
Ordinance. Mr. Shillito, the petitioner,
Mr. Canning on the subject. The Danish Government
was iti consequence appealed to. The King of Den-
mark recognized the justice cf the claim,. but evaded
the exec.utiop,..throwing the
.csiitst of indemnification
on the King of Sweden. Undee these circumstances he
appealed to The Hence of COmitierna xitether the peti-
tioners Witt. not entitled to-the equitable' consideration
of Goeernment. He shoulj ndtrwledge himsegtotake
any future proceeding until hi. heard .what.the opinion
f the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) was. He should conclude by moving that
the Petition be brought up.
The CHANC,ELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said,
that hehad rather to apologise..after the courteous
in-
tisnation of• the petition, for not having made himself
master pt the subject ; and as the Right Hon. Baronet
had abstained from all expression of hostility towards
the Government, he would- follow his. example, and
Merely explain the 'general principles on which a ques-
tion of this' kind should be decided, and which were not
confined to Deentiarkair the particular claimapts before
the House, but what should always bethe rule of the
country with respect to- such subjects. • He•-believed
that the petitiOner was only the agent to a anettantiie
hop,se, wherefore his-claiin was, more as their repiesen
satire than as .an individual sufferer.. When in 1807
this country-thought itself justified in preventing Den-
'bark from •giving aid to .other Powers, .then-in beside
coalitioa against us, the Danish Government drought
it-right to:order the. debts due id British: subjeetsio.be
-paid into the Danish Treasury, and the petitioners now
skid this they bad a Clair against the British Gismo::
went for what was dun. from their debtors in Denmark.
ft was true that Whea this cline before the Governmessi
a: aa..eartier period, that they considered theSa clalans
had' better be deferred until there anal he
would nut deny that expectationiaere held out that
these reparailons would be made.. It was-equally true
that such a stipul.tion form:A no-part of the treaty of
Kie'. TO the principle that such a stipulationlihotild
be a sine qua non of that treaty, he coed riot submit,
and he was sure every one would admit, that circum-
stinces.Were such in 1814 as to make it desirable that
we should have peace as speedily asrpossible; and he
thought it would equally be admitted, that this country
should never take it on herself to pay all claims which
subjects might have on the individuals of other coun•
tries. The flight Hon. Baronet would see how very
wide a field such a principle would admit, it a!tcr a
peace we were to recognise and satisfy the claims of
every individtial who might suffer directly or indirectly
by hostilities with other countries. There would in such
a case he no limit either to the demands to be satisfied

or to the difficulties which would. arise.. Neither should
claims be allowed on the part of persons w ho chose vo•
luntarily to reside in foreign countries during war, and
who might become sufferers from the circumstances of
such war. That principle would hold equally
su hether
compensation were to be made out of the druits of Ad-
miralty, or out of any other fund. The principle on
which the Government of this country had always acted
was, that those who embarked in foreign trade did so
at their own proper, risk, and if they were eventually
losers, they were not to look for compensation from the
Crown.
Mr. WARBURTON thought that a moral lesson
was read to the House by the circumstances out of
which the present Petition arose. It taught them that
the droits of the Admiralty ought to be no longer
placed. dt the disposal of the Crown. He conceived
that those British who lost .by the confiscation had
strong claims upon the Government; for the property
'seized here belonging to Danish subjects bad been sent
hither for the.espress purpose :ot defraying debts due
to British subjects, and therefore:might be cousidered
'as belongingliftber:to our own fellow countrymen than
'to fpreiraire,'. ' •
, ; iitiUAKT..,WIATLEy thought this isii`ex-
tremely hard case. The House, he thought, should take
the Whiffet into its most serious consideration; for the
:Prtiticisiers'conld obtain redress in nu other quarter,
now they had tailed in the Courts of. Justice both at
home and, abroad. i-• „ .
"RIME supported .the prayer .of the Petitign,
'and eiVeriedra decided opinion against the ezereise"oi
Mat power? over the cl.rpits:of: the Admi Wit *hitt thr
Crown enjoys. The Petitionels;he ivete.justly

entitled to compensation, and ought to recri it
'whatever expense to the country.
Mr. TRANT supported the Petition. He never
knew a claim which called more loudly on the honnur

,stud justice of the House. Ele trusted the subjtct would
mett with further attention.

On the question that the Petition be read,
Sir J. MACINTOSH, in reply, said, that although
the Droits of the Admiralty had been passed over by the _
Right Hon. Gentleman, yet he considered that it formed
a particular-feature in his statement. The English Go..
hhnee
vernment intercepted the money coming to the English
ecsul by
pab lialnitd: -
-creditors, and they were in justice bnund to sAlify their
claims. The practise of the law of nations male a dis_
unction between seizures by sea andsehizthure
and that should not have been unnoticed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman. The seizure in this case was an in..
fraction of the law of nations, and the fund towaicheym
had alluded should have, been applied to the payment
of the persons who were injured thr.lug
of his Majesty's Government. He begged leave to gay,
that he did not give so the case of these claimants; and
in the course,of next Session he would bring it under
the not of the I-louse.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a similar Petition from the Cor-
poration of Cutlers of Halifax.
Both Petitions were ordered to he prin,ed. _

Mr. DU NCO NI BE presented a Petition from Sheffield, praying
for i,rl improvement in the EccleNiastical Laws.—Ordered to be
printed.
A Message from the Lordiannounced their Lord.hips agree-
ment to the Packet Vessels License Bill, aA other

Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a Petition front certain Merchants.
of Leeds, praying for compensation for the Danish seizures.
i Mr. TRA NT presented a similar Petition from a resident In
.tDover.—The Petitions were ordered to he printed.
Mr. KNOX moved for an Account of the Butter Tasters in'
the different ports of Ireland, tasting their &dories. and when ap.
pointed.—Ordered.
Sir G. NOEL presented a Petition from the county of Rutland,
praying protection for the Wool grower..
Mr. HEATIICOTE presented a similar Petition from a Pari,h•
in the County of Denbigh.—Ordered to lie on the table.
The same Hon. Mmicrit presented it Petition from a Coroner of
Bury St. Edmund's praying for remuneratiori.Ordered to he printed,
• Mr. HOME presented a Petition from Aberdeen, pnyiatthe
total abolition of slavery in the West Indies.
Mr. WESTERN presented a similar Petition from the Comity
Pf Es•ex,—Roth Petitions were ordered to be printed.

SUPPLY. "
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that*
House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. HUNIE wi.hed to ask the Secretary of the
Colonies whether it was intended to prim, e, ,!tiring the
recess, for those reductions in the Colonies which were
practi:able, and which had been rec,,nimeoded? The
Finance Committee would not have time to A ttend to

.them. The question applied to Trinidad, the Mauritius,
Grenada, &c. There was, for instance, great disprc.
portion between the salaries of the Governor , Secre-
taries, &c. Even where the• population was equal. there
were two-tiirds difference between the salar les in twn
different islands. Ought not those matters to be revised?
The t station and the expenditure of the Crown Colonies
in particular required amendment—and there was a
good opportunity presented by vie occasion uf having
to appoint. a new Governor, in the room of the late Sr
Ralph Woodford.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY said, I e was not aware
'that any such question would be put to him—perhaps
the House Might not regret it, as he could cot go into
,detuil ; but every attention would be paid to the subject.
The attention paid to the amelioration of slaves, 'prcved
the anxiety to improve the condition of the Colonies.
He Could not lose the opportunity of bearing testimony
to the admirable manner in which Sir Ralph Woodford
had discliarged his dirtier(hear.l
Mr. STEWART wished to direct particular atten-
tion to the enormous duties imposed by America on
our manufactures, on iron goods, and other articles.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES:.
The House then resolved into the Committee.
Sir H. HARDING L said the Finance Report which
he saw in the hands of many Members firmed the ape.
logy.for postponing the Ordnance Estimates till solate
in the Stssion. In ariviiag the Eltimwes he shouldbarre
to'state some instructions he had received on the re-
commendations of the Finance Committee. The amount
of .the present Estimates was I,7Bs.oo(ll.—deducting
220,0001. for credit, ACC. the amount, he had to ask for
was 4567,19V.=that was' a reduction- of 32 7761. as
comparekwith laa-yetit: Suite the peace the espendi-
turetif the Ordnance had been reduced three millions,
or •three•fourilis of the esFiensei and the recltictica
Vas int still_ greater prOportion when
.Compared
the depirlm'ents 'consolidated with. the 0: dnance.—
Thtredoction *bold then appear to be much greater
than three fourths. The Ordnance was nt,w, he gas
prepared t(kUntend, reduced totheloweitpossible stale,
consistently with the efficiency of our forces. Ate
pritieUt tithe; in'the ciiil departments-Of-din Ordnance
:the reductions bad. been equally extensive; as extensive
as could be effected. It was also gratifying to be Are
to state, that the military superannuations of the Ord.
fiance had reached their maximum ; hereafter there

must be reductions in such branch. Ili the charge ct
Barracks, th-re were also considerable reductions—
especially in Ireland. He now had to speak c f the re•
cnnimendationi of the Finance Ciimmirtee, and trusted
he should do so with all becoming deference; but be

thought the recommendations of the Committee, as re-
g.tded the Ordnance Department, were a little seem
Those recommendations would, however, he attended
to by the Government, as regarded the reduction of
the salaries of Surveyor• General, and others specially
enumerated in the office; but he was instructed to
say that the Government could net acquiesce in the
recommendation to abolish the office c f Lieutenant.
General of the Ordnance. The clerk of the Or,,nance
was to be reduced from 1,8001. to 1,9.001. but %den
the department was praised by the CommiT,ee,
seemed rather severe to accompany such conirreq•
dation with suggesting the reduction of the salary et
one.third—(Hear, and a laugh). With respect 13
ne proposed abolition of the office of Lieutenant Ge•
neral, he thought the recommendation was groundei
on erroneous views: the Government so thought, ird
therefore resisted it. It was founded on the opinions of
former Military Commissions, in 1811. Those Core'
:
missioners recommended the reduction during e the tilt
of peace. But the most efficient persons about the Ord'
Hance had not approved such proposed reduction: g
was impracticable, if the efficiency of the Ordnance
were to be sustained, and if the responsible discharged
such department were to he secured in the way raj°
by the Committee. The Duke of Wellington had git e.
evidence of its utility, as essential to the wellbeing '4
the Ordnance ; but, added the Duke, " I do not mess
LO say that the duties may not be performed by the
Master General of the Ordnance; they have been 0.
performed—(Hear, hear)—but I must further !cow:,
that it is essential to have such a military Officer at ';ie
Board." That be deigned sufficient ; and he (Sir Hal
Hardinge) could bear personal testimony of the in.'
veniences resulting from the temporary absence of Leg
B.gesford. Much business went Aindone, though
every night took papers home with him. In 1751 t
duties of such Officer were specifically pointed out; 3:
the office had ever ,been.deemed of steat imisortacce
lie was prepared to Contend, that the --tcriapor.uy 45.

s.k.—Thres per
&um, 16401.

srnces t.f the Doke of,Wellingten an.] Lord Boresfo:d
no? estatdish the fact that the duties 4sl the otiice

roght he con•oli.lated wit.) some other office:—(ileac)
`roe other reitictions recommended by the Ftiance
Committee commeaCed from the 1-t of July, so that
...bile the Government determined to continue the offs. e
of Lieutenant General, because all the evidence provrd
that that office was essential to the service, they had
shown the utmost leadiness to comply with the recom-
mendation of the Committee, where it was borne out
by the evidence. Theßoacd efOrdna,nce had all flu ough
acted in a manner quite consistent with the praises that
the Finance Committee had been pleased tq bestow on
them. And never in tne instance did they continue an
office that had ceased to be necessary. The salary of
Lieut. General was now reduced from 1,5001. to 1,2001.
The.recommendaticn of the Committee as to other re-

ductions had been assented to, and a sum of 2,0931.

`avow of the general efficismcy and economy of the
0 dinnice establishment, and all Vie witnesses who had

hero examined on the subject -werearf opinion. that• the
office ought to be maintainrd.-The eviderice itstabli.heit,•
too, the tact. that there were useful duties attached to
ifte office, which required it should not be abrilishel He
knew that opposition -to any recommendation of -the
Comrniitee-wood meet with popularity in that House,
but he was or t inclined to gain that popularity any
more. than Oat which .was talse.obtaities/ thkt of doors,.
by pretending to vote raitle—reiluctiori-Orl72ootirygi
for the relief of the people—(Hear, hear). To do so
was a complete farce—(Hear). If the office was not
necessary, he said, 6* Let it be abolished but let them
not, for the appearance of effecting a saving, injure an
;mportant branch of the military service—(Hear).
Mr. BARING said, that seeing the deficiency there

had been in the revenue, to the ;mount of borne bun•

dreds of thousands, the Committee was called upon' to I
examine seriously and severely into what means there I
were of effecting a reduction. And the reductions, such
as they were, must be defended before the House,
whenever the Government should think proper to refuse
to adopt any Of the Committee's recommendations. He
thought in the Committee up stairs, and he still thought;
that this was an office that might be got. rid ot.—
The discuision he had heard that night. particularly
what was urged in opposition to the abolishment of
the office, had confirmed him in his opinion. Tire Ar-
tillery Department was now said to be in an excellent
condition, and it was urged as a reason for retaining this
office; but he begged to call to the recollection of H•ii
nourable Members, that, when the department was in
quite an opposite state from-the present, this same of
of Lieutenant-General of the Ordn ince caked. But.
the best evidence of its u elessn-ss at present was the
continual absence of the p'rsons who filled it. This fact
was worth ten thousan 1 volumes or opinions of official
person., .however respectable they .might be—(Hear.
hear). With respect to that duty, which used to be that
which principally engaged the Lieutenant-General, viz
the inspection r f the corps at Woolwich, he thought it
•might be transfeir d to the 'Office of the Inspector-Ge-
neral. He should supp lit his Right Honourable Friend
in taking the sense of the Huse upon the question.
Mr.CALCRA FT would not vote 1-r the continuance
of the office if he did not think its duties necessarY;or
if he thought the state of the fin inces such as could not
allow its exisience; t.ut lie did not consider the finances
to be inn c 'uditiun that required .the proposed reduc-
tion. Those Members of tie House, why, like himself,
.were not members of the Finance C )mmittee, and wl o
were therefore ignorant of tits Committe.'s motives for
recommending the abolition of the office of Lieutenant
General of the Ordnance, should decide un the evi-
dence given in the Report. On this ground he appealed
to the House whether they could dott4t the necessity
of upholding the office in quest on ? Was there any
authority against the cot Otwanceof the office? • It was
said Lord Moira declaredr ir, the Master-General were
present* the ..ffi:e of Lieutenant-General wOulcf
unne-
cessary ; but against that there waithe authority-Uf
L.ird Chathani. who • said the office was necessary.
When he was at the other side of the House, he pressed
the reduction cf the .Ordnance Department as strongly
as his Honourable Friends tiere were disposed to: press
it—(aters and laughter). True, the Cominissioners

had been taken from different salaries; and even while
the Committee were sitting. the Masten-General of the
Ordnance had effected reductions to the amount of
9,9D0/. When before the Committee he was a'ked by
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen what reductions it
would be possible to make ? The best answer to that
rriestion would be, that already had every reductiori
ciii:,istetit with the good of the service been made by
the Noble Lord at the head of the Board. He meant
merely to claim for the Board of Ordnance that merit
which they so justly deserved, and for the Duke of
Wellington that sincerity in giving his evidence, which
every Member will readily concede. For himself, were
he not ashamed to speak, he world simply say, That
Le could not so far demean himself as to state, that that
was esseniisil to the service which he did nor really,
think to be so. The Right Hun. Secretary croncluded
by Moving that a sum, not exceeding 24,93 U. be
granted to his Majesty, for defraying the expenses of
the salaries of Master-General, and of the other officers
of the Board of Ordnance, for the year 1828, a sum of
2.5.0001. having already been voted on account, for that
purpose.
Sir H. PARNELL said, that notWithstinding what
had fallen from the Honourable and Gallant Member,
he should feel it his duty to propose such an amend-
ment as would carry into effect the ohjecrof the Finance
Committee. Tbat recommendation was not made with
out the.greatest consideration ; they had examined the
subject in every possible way. Indeed, they must have
had strong reasons for the conclusion to which they had
come, since it was opposed to the evidence of the Duke
of-Wellington. The Committee had, however, after
looking attentively through all the evidence, decided
by :the largest majority that had appeared upon any
question wnich came under their consideration, that the
office-of Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance was un-
necessary. This officer warin fact little more than the
doable of thC Mister General; and if the latter were to
perform tbr duties of his office. the other, eirjoi
a perfect sinecure. But if a person were required, to
do any duties now supposed to be.done by the Lieut..
General, might not one of the Generals attached to the
establishment at Woolwich lie found for that•porpose?
The Honourable Member, after-stating that the military
branch of the Ordnance, as well as that of the'Engineers
employed about building, we') too great, proposed at an
amendment, that instead of 24,8841, the vote be reduced
to 21,335 i.
The Amend'

Intern —ens . pat, • ' .. bf Military'lngait, had ihonght it Might be dispensed
Sir E. OWEN supported the continuance of the of with, but, at thesame time, they recommended an ar-
fice of Lieutenant General, and entered into
.8 stales rangement.. and a Board, over. which the Lieritenaut-
ment. of the laborious duties to be perforrneikle ane General should be placed. The Duke of Wellington.
Ordnance department.- He himself was obliged to work some years ago, had reduced the Ordnance Depart-
at home for three hours every evening, Sundays notet- went to the loweit scale possible. Lnrd Mulgratie.
cepted. He thought it highly- necessary that • some ton, introduted economy Into the departimuf.• As'
officer of high rank should attend, as in this case, to to the assertion that the absence of the Lientenant-
arrange and communicate. between the Master Geotral General proved the office was urn ecessary, he could,
and the Board. if this were not done the business of pryve that•the Master General and LieutementGeoeral.,
the; Board would get•into arrear, as it had done tofore. of the Ordnance were more urliequently. absent I one
notwithstanding the exeitions of a late Master GeniraL their duties than the r fficers of any other establishinent,:
General GASCOYNE said, that the recotameitdmina. The ahsenie of the Lieutenant•Genelatwat belt an ei-'
of the Report, in !reality, was to abelialt tee Lieutenant- cepiion. yet Hon; 'Gentlemen' sought- to -make if 'tae.
General, and to appoint * Geneial is) Isis stead. • The rule. it wonid be absurd and.rnischievcets tciahrolske,
office had been filled by thernirt eminent military men, necessary office on' account of the-occasional absence of
and he believed it bad temaieed unquestioned for 200 an officer, Wolf the officer should Ontieueubsent beyiind
or 300 years. He, was skelost disposed_ to nOd,Loo m
finit a reasonable time, the inconvenience would boromedied-
with-the proposed reduction of Ahc 141174 the.k.- by appointing another to e office, as teas intended at
tenant-General to 1,2001. ftom 45601.. As. te the,rastr the case of Sir:H.Clinton. A s,sto the- arguipenc, that
Metes generally, particularly •tbe Civil-Depat Meat, be an officer of the litie ought. notto.be appoi tied,oieka
heats Sutprisedso much had beep done.
.' • , situation, his experience in the tfidtience .)ffi.teeliti.. •
..Sri H. PARNELL explained,. :Hi bad flair wool- vino/tibias tha; an ()Vet' of the liiieeltieliniite'fite.tio'
mended the-appointment of any General insinia.of the fill k tbdu an officer of a. tillerf. LAO Cleatharn- was
Lieetenant-General—(Hear)t 'He meant to -contend, of the same opinion. On the whole, he should. take*
tfigk if a militaft Officer, were requited at the Hoard, a eiiitlineele the-Repoiceilsinisrflierpininti of the COM-
General could be had witNiut. the contianaisca_of Olio siker-. . Hew as sure there was enhugh •of ..- hi:Sine's.; in
office. • . the Ordnance Department- for the Master General, the
Mr. BA NKES maintained, that the office was useless; Lieutenant General, and every other Officet.in the. Es-
it might be advantageously. abolished, and that feet tablistiment, however active and knell gent they might
was /moved by the Officers having been repeatedlY be. There was one :eduction he regretted'; namely;'
absent. He was in reality a depute to the Mister Ge- that ef the salary of clerk of the Ordnance from 2,0004.
neral: With great defe. ence to the Duke of Wellington's to 1,2004 He had himsef proposed an increase of the.
evidence, he thought the reasons adduced by his Grace salary in 1824, and succeeded, with the urianimous.con,
did not make out that the office could not be abolished. sent of Parliament. He was sure the House would not;
He thought that the office might be abolished without. agree to diminish the efficiency of any public office. He;
detsirneot to the public service. . should not vote for the continuance of the office in ques-
Sir G. CLERK contended that the office could not lion if he did not think that the abolition of. it would
be abolished ; he could personally bear testimony. to the diminish the efficiency of the Ordnance Office.
inconveniences that had resulted from the temporary Sir J. GRA HA M said, nothing could be more natutel
absence of the Lieutenant General. When such absence than thelyinpathY expressed by the Payinaster of the
was experienced, there was the greatest inconvenience Forces with the Lieutenant General of the Ordnance.
oaring to there being no military Officer present. To But he thought the Right H. nourable Gentleman disc
destroy this office would. be to aboli•-h what constituted played the zeal of a new convert, which outran his dis-
the greatest merit of the Ordnance Board. cretion. It could tot he said that the office was indis
Mr. MABERLY contended, at great length, that the pensably necessary; a.d that being the case, the present
recommendation of the Finance Committee, for the re- condition of our finances tequired that every -saving
duction of the office in question, ought to be attended should be made. He was sorry to hear a Right Ho-'
to. They would, had the facts been so strong, equally noisrable Gedtleman call even such a saving a farce.
have recommended the abolition of the office of Master- Mr. Canning's claim to the gratitude of the country
General. rested more on cal ing on the Representatives of the
Sir J. SEBRIGHTsaid, that he did not think himself people to aid the Government in the great work of re-
justified in voting for the abolition of the office—(Hear). trenchnsent, than on any other of his acts ; and it to-
ll the artillery were once suffered to fall into decay it night they threw the recommendation of the Finance
would take years to restore it—(Hear). It was at present Coinmittee overboard, they would forfeit their title to
in a high state of perfection, and had excited the admi- the confidence of the country(Loud crie- of hear).
ration not only of the military men of this, country, but Mr. W. HORTON, in explanation, said, that in the
of those of the Continent. He called upon those then use of the word farce, he meant that the abolition of a
who did not know more of the subject than himself, not necessary office, on account of the sum saved, was a
to meddle with that which was now so effective—(Hear.) mere farce. . . .
Mr. BERNAL said, he was well aware of the present Sir G. MURRAY said, that considering the length to'
excellent condition of the utillery and engineer depart.. 'which the debate bad-been carried, he should to t have
'rent of our army ; but it was one thing to admit that, intruded upon the attention of the House had h- not for
rid anoGer to say that the maintenance of the office of some short time been connected with the. department in
Lieutenant General of the Ordnance was necessary to question. He agreed in the general principle laid down
seep them in that state. When the office was held by by the Hon. Member for persetshire, as to the objects
'Use Duke of Marlborough, Schomberg, and the other to Which the-Flnance CoMmittee had directed their at-
great men whose names had been mentioned, it-was tentioo. but he differed from the Hon. Gentleman in
natosiqns that our ,aataletY was in the worst possible thinking that:they had made a wise selection for re-
state. Besides, if the blaster General discharged hi. duction in fixing upon the office of Lieutenant Genet al
chines properly, there could be no occasion for this of the-Ordnance. He entirely agreed with the Honour..
gleFiely office. .„ . , . litiles Member for Abingdon, when he said, that the
• Colosset. WOOD supported the nati of the •Offile, ilevarliWorthe.office should not at all prevent the
and said, that it was impossible for the senior officers of 'Cointkiittre from recommending its reductio ', if such
the artillery establishment at.Wookset- ''ch to niscliaige4 a *visors appeared beneficial. He could not, how..
duties, from ,ther advanced age, seldom being less th;so totar,.ccinciir .with -Hoemerable Gentlemen in think*
seseni.y whenllieireached:Lbciai k Orati,erarppeett. ing.that the' duties tof the chief • .officers of the Olt
lilt. W. H 011.1021 said that the Ceiaatittesepeildlir Ana' iiid"doobtinoitiareased. They had been, ill-. 1

having been

, - •
-4: • ,

creased, and greatly ir.creasel In saying that he
spoke from *aperient:4.v and ups r his own know-
ledge.; and he would •.also state., without any fear
6f contiadicticift;• that ihe various :alterations Which
.kadbeen:madetad proved highly beneficial cache coma-
'try. • If :the -prinAiple of the Honunr.ible gernbet for
Oorsetsfilre was acted upon, "nanacly,:that the Govern-
ment shotild be debarred from calling for the services
of military uteri already in office, wit nut those officers
being dspriied of the office they held when calesl
ipon, its operation would be highly injuriou,•so. ch.•
public service. For instance, would the saving which
would have been made in Vie cave of Lord Corn,.
wallis, a man whose great reputation was still
increased by every new inquiry. have c4nspensated for'
the loss of his services in Ireland ? With respect t his
Gallant Friend who now filled the office of Lieutenant
General of the Ordnance, he was selected to command
the expedition to Portugal in consequence of his cape-,
rience and his well-deserved reputation. If. unfortu
nately, this country had been .plunged into a war.
doubtless another Officer would have superseded Sir H.
Clinton in the Ordnance. But if, on the arrival of the
troops in Portugal, it had been found that they were
not wanted, it would hive been very hard upon his
Gallant Friend if, on his return after a short 'absence
he had found himself excluded from an office which be
had only left in consequence of his Sovereign and his
country having required his services in a more impirt-
iant station. The absence of Sir H. Clinton had beet ,
round most inconvenient, but another Officer had • not
been appointed. in consequence of the just claims oi
Sir IL Clinton to consideration. He had a very sincere,
respect fOr cite pith,* lehotc.eis and abilities of the.
Gentlemen conspo4pg the Finance Cominiqee. but on
iebat oecaso a he did out fcelbilaself justAed on sup:
porting their proposition—(Hear).
Mi. STANLEY said,
.the argument of the Right
Hon arable and Gallant General went to show, that it
• was desirable to have a blaster-General and Lieutenant-
General, who might be sent away on other service—
(He.tr). 'Tile Honourable Gentleman here read several
extracts from the Report of, the Finance Committee, to
show that the office could be dispensed with; and said,
though this was not the most glaring case that could
be produced, yet he thought it his. duty to vote for the
abolitiouof the office--(Hear, hear).
' Lnrd-MORPETH said, that he should support the
reduction of the office, in consequence of the very fre-
quent absence of the officer from his indispensable du
ties. He *mild 'further.. say, that as a Committee of
that; House had -been appointed to inquire into the pro-
pyiettptof abolishing, that House would have little cre-
dit with, the country-if thii recommendatietv was not
acceded to. . .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, having,
been a member of the Finance Committee, and having.
"eapiessed an opinion there, that the reduction, was ima-
politic, he thouglit it right to avow that opinion in the
face of the House and the country. The question was
one which ought not to be decided on grounds. of per,',
sOnal conduct or feeling. If the individual now at
the head of the Ordnance had.. done that whiCh was'
deserving of censure, it.wate open to Parliament to' in-
stitute an inquiry into that conduct, and Parliament
might punish if 'they; thought proper—{Cheering).
But let not any, aspersidne • üb!ch
.mat. be cast upon
that Noble Ida .00 , Made. the. •reaaots for n'ullifying
the exertions of that department by depriving it of.
the -servieet-of ats-o*cer who- added most materially
to its efficienry,—, Ha agreed with the Honourable
bicrldber, folPallington, that the qsiestien'wis a sint,
ple one.. Was-it necessary to the business of the'
department or notilhat.- theta should be such an 11:A••
eta' This wal.tfleiteeitiodiiirli stated, and he thought
theloss to• khe service in the. inefficiency of the,
department would bagleaterthan.any gain to the State
from the savinrof tha•-talary.• Free years ago it had
be it detetinsinqbY tlik•Hottsir.thattlfia office was ne-
eessaryo.and he wai.efiatlifistejebai 4;fiiiiige had since
taken place .vallich should indica thertl:l4 alter 4144
.opinion. Mr. Canning, too, had voted 'in favour:44 the
letsterlie- of she of4e. The Lietteeeot Geueial had
;certaialy. b:edabaeit Upon lap. his abseriee
atifirays.beeik severely felt by ate Abet officers of
....et dapfa-cotenti.,anit he argue_ dohat this, private him
loptiriuedobave.ratatially bem,use
calklitikota-peetiteei)fitt theie.:wei id theslis-.
: grivairea.4-.1401‘ Allifetbel live too motif
;pressed: :-Ttreweluitiv.;ol4sfirsvbe..sp indiference and
inglt„Et:4 ilifiddiiiooalsditie9 Ind-secondly, of those
Ot4itr4o RiOhtilisaburahte
t4enilemaketinelu :14 saying, ri:it be. would
ataiesrxhisseduction,Jseeati4in it he ihoughi-be would
practising7tibad economy —atternp ing to save a few
' pup tid5.!.041.-rtnining:o4 risk I:•closing. t floc' sand s.
'•14t,:51001.14.- t0..-Re amidst cries of question,. t-!
erstreardir,attention•Of the. Bow to an item cf the
ii,fear to an Dfficertwhe
'ch4tnitl. one: Moth. part i( !duties of the

labanrs. During the time the Committee had been car
eying on their inquiries into the Or.•!nance Dpartmenr,
the laht•urs of the. G ivernment had cur twig the 1.:46-
;111.4m A ill:riM9,oooi. w..n 4-1, savrlss4stay-4:brss..eaer- s-
tions,and there w ;tin (lest. e tit lidosh. t' c •
econ
.my. With tesp c l 0 t O dnarice De r, Poem,
Giover nmeut- did not con oder fne ati,eo.c ref t*.e•
Gellojat at pr. of of
.11,e useles t es. 4 the rifli They.
kook the opinions .ftwo 'men w on-e -natoe, w. 'e of.
.orate weight—the DA. rti W Ilingron mid his Itigh!...
Hon. Ftiend. yvey stated that the ctlice • f L-etieoan•- •
General was essential t 6 the appointment of t ie B lard.
It was their opinion that it v as iiiief.trant with reqiect •
to the italitary part of the establi,,ornelit Titer autho. •
rity was clearly with his own ovii.ion, a •i • e was per
fectly ready ro Act on the opinion of iFe Duke of We!.:-
Jington and hit Right H.,notirable Frie -I. When 1-1:: .
did so, he consulted the true dignity o t .e s rvice and
prom‘ited the intissst- of at country.
Mr. 1341.01.1G.H AK said this was 1 quest ran of a very
interesting character. heconside.e.l it of sufficient
impo mice to call upon him t' support the Reoort of
the Commi!lee of r,lial.Ce. It was t e fi• s in.tancc in
which they were cal;ed upon to sown. t a C turn tt e
which had excited g, rat expec ati Th • t Co .• ntitiee
recommended ihe liti•iii of a,i i Elite on 'he ground .
aosence of the individual mho fi i d that like. The
Right Hon. Gentleman said absence did not lead
Abolition, but he considere I these was ..as occa ion for
an offic.• in which the person holding it could he absent
a year :Lid three quarters. H 000 t give his vote for
the teductioii.
Mr. Secret iry Pen explained.--.-The Committee then divided,
'For the Resolutlots• • . .• 204
For the •Aotendment . 93
• Majority f it the. Resolution . ----109
Qn nor return to the Gaiter y,we found Mr.limille asking whether
after twelve o'clock. they should proceed with the Estimates? He
should move that the Chairman do report progress, and ask lease
to sit again. •
Sir H. HA RDINGE was not aware that there were any,other
votes which would call for h objection, and therefore-he hoped the
Hon. Member would suffer the votes to proceed.
Mr. M. A. TAY LOR was in favour of adjournment.. . * -
. Mr. MA HER LY had not yet received an answer to the question. •
on the abolition of an office, in which it could not be proved that in
seven years the occupant had d*e one day's duty. Hestipporred
the adjournment,• the more particularly ail the tuestion •of the
Canadas, which involved an adrount of 204!),0001 of motley; will
implicated in the votes. ,
Sir H. 'II ARDINGE said this'(the Canada'iote),ivaie rtipplit.
mtatary grant, and this 'year only 100,0001. • was intetid4 tam
moved for these Colonies—(Heir, heir).
Mr. HUMEstdl objected to tbeAterseas of hour, add th'ette
•
fore he should press the motion.
Sir H. II A RDLNOE said, if the Hon; Meunier ( Nfr: truMe).
would riot out any, of
,the [tenet which *ere objechionabla,l6'him
he (Sir H. Hardinge) would postpone
The gallery was then cleared fur a division. ' • ."
For the Adjournment .•. it •
Against it 172 •• "
. Majority . '
. Olt
.our re-admission •Into the gallery, we round Sir' Al'elyirr .
putting the question on' the original Resolution *lien the gAvi
was again cleared tin a division--
For the Resolution 163 •
. ;.';• 1
Against it
Majority . "
After a few words from Mr. Baciudeix, *Getterildiet-ihrlt.
and Mr. 'Hum; the CHAlRMANryported,
.progresi, and
. . '',leave to 'sit again on Monday nest. • .
The Regent's Park Improvement Bill was ard'i. thintiVafe-;
and passed. •
Lord LOWTHER brought eP tde t irftke eOnitttOtei
the Charing Cross Itnproventents BIllis.:&-Otileeed'ttitte.7eritruss4.11..
Mr. 0. CAVE moved that Report Of* OoMmittee
Corporate Fonda Bills he brought up;, • . " .
• For the motion . . .•
• .Against it
Majority , .• .
Mr. P. THOAISON moved, as an Arne ndmnt.that the VIVIOi
be further considered this days three, months. .• • •
Lord. LOWTHER resisted the bill .ai an' ettertatichnitut
private property.
Mr. 0. CAVE only desired to Initiate Mil disengaged.' Debite
eventually adjourned till Tuesday next:*
The New South Wales Bill was. read i third' time, anttifsiVdF"
The Customs Duties Bill went through. a ifoonnitt4.-4tckirti
On Monday.
The Longitude Acts Repeal Bill was read a thirttlmii,andlialita,
The remaining Orders of the Day: baying ltegiciAiosed ofs the
.
House adjourned at Hocr-rase Two o'Cusca. .

.*; : • .1

. -.TI4E7.CL4RE
kr I,: aCmivilli.as we stated yestriciayc has b4n,
tamed fey Vire. .61r. -14tsges aid,- having poi len.it ,sort-
icitit7ninilbet .d.rfopectkb)e volio tdleitsbre WA light
.to am Ultimate-. legaL return,4letlig4 °M Y
test, !. This tient mapbe consi'datod,-among.ibil*iite
.estrierdin'ary (bet ever-occurred:-eater ;It•lbteie,vf
iropeler -rdyteient idea. Thl• CiatticilicV;,pr •:•enrittst
county 'hitio in tied,* Tißin v de4o4tl
voted. f0ribv,i;.44:,,b44.41414:a
.Xleciiher of the Administrated; must hoe a csetylia.-411
ewe of influence **it 4is*Cisileakses oa eßretrirt.
deli been.s Olson the CatkOrte...:c4.ll m
. set -,...',.,.berriff,
ltis, they bave,in pure isanteilOess.cai
and from having of efteisot-isieutisjo4e
Legislature, returned as their itipiesant aerie
Man who cannot bf possikliq I ekitiO thO! th!sjigasist
Porliamentaty. service, f.n,.,olherorflf thky 6ir-, a
iWb;

... ' ~

r _ _ _ =.y4 ! c.t ,
Leutenant4eneral of the Ordnance:.
par
was .Man 'who is incompetent tcfact until t'kelaw shay, rave
the Architects L. the Barrack D. par merit, a person been changed, while thei•throW liwar:true bt -tbsVosest
WM.& name was :scurceli known to any of the Mem. isetnl instruments.for "act dinplidq;r•:itie-diAted•eff-
bieri:of ibit.Depaitment. teration.:
H
_
S,r HARDINGE.stated; that he had CF
i given an Sir EDWARD' Baum put the Right osintTabley..essprTfts-
.
explicit opinion Opus the subject before the.CoMailittee.
herald In nonsinodoe.:Str Amount kirsc-• • •
aii.m.o.seenoited thenommatton," ,
—During the: time of Lott _M 11.4 .......angrove the. Architect . n 01141•31: Dl proposed Mr.)(lCuppe 111. i s i*repre-
had 'been found:' necessary,, but that it was the inten sanative,. . . • - •
tion if, the Govermienet' to abolish the office as soon- -Mr. FtreceltAt.p. presented hints ell.to .riankoiof
as proper arrangements Could be made. The Architect the elect us. iam here (said he) to :answer awy gees-
had still 'many duties to pei fo: m, and he had given full tion that may be put'to me.by- any-of my: constiruegii ;
information,respecting -them to the Finance Committee. indeed, I may say I stand ari'aigned here, ct:llvl4ed
Final 14114 9R: 1.4_182,2* ppitter.dle Lieutenant-General
.without a trial, and threatened with. your .dispkasuse
.of the Ordnance nor the Master-Giii.eral of the Of d without being allowed to enter into. my vindieationw I
trance were absent. Sir H. Clititon was taken away to do not object, far from it, to any Elector denratillettnf
command the army upon ao expedition. With regard the person whOnshe returns to Porliaiasint 'a it‘ifq-Ic-
to absence, he could, nit.admit that absence ought to count of the manner he conducted himself as.lii:iegre-
vacate an office. At thetitne of the expedition to Cu- sentative. From this scrutiny I shall nor shrink.;. but
penhagen, Who was SeireiarY,firi Ireland ? The Duke before I proceed, pet mit me far. call your •Ottention to
r&Wellingtpn., Who was in tpat office at the battle of the situation.iii which this county ii.placed by thf dovel
Vpneira? The Duke of Wellington: The ab ence of mode which has been adopted by the Leariled
an individual in the service of his country was no for. Gentleman and his friends. I hope I may be permit-
teituie cf office. He should contend that the absence ted to say, without unkindness to those opposed to me,
:.t the Marquis Cornwallis was no forfeiture of .the that the system oil which they prhceed is one frauht
office ot..%laster-General. - •Ls with danger to this hitheit r united county. 'flier seek
S•r M. W. RIDLEY said, the question applied only./.1-0 dissever the ties which ought to bind the tenant to
to the necessity of maintaining the 7/flee of Lieutenant- his landlord, as his natural protector ; and according
General of the Ordnance in rime orpeac.e.. It visas the as they shall succeed in tlis Unfortunate carter, iitust
opinion of the.Froaace Committee that the office might- the success of • their candidate depend. It has been
be abolished in time of peach at least his opinion coin- said, and perhaps believed, that 1 was• not luanest in ,the
cid-d with the Comirrictee's(Much coughing). support whiCh I gave-to the C.t ramie QtleAson..l deny
Mr. Secretary PBELsaid; it wasodmitted by none the imputation, and I repel the charge with geom..' I
more frequently than" his. Honourable Colleague, that deny it, Sir,- as a man of .bonour and a Gentleman,
the recommendation of the Finance Committee had pria well known among you, and I claim credit in- iiktue
ceeded from a desire to promote the public service. An of my character for .that* denial. Another charge
Hon. Member liad also admitted that he found on the against me is, that have been called to the Councils
part of hii Slalestri Gtii-ernment a disposition to give of my' Sovereign—an d'. may it ple :se GA). that saNle
exiilatiatiori in the best manner.. They certainly had in that situation it marbe.my good forture
Own all the subj-ets under the consideration of ths4l my RomonCethoHclountryasen honest and hOttauraible
COMmittre serious att!ntion, but they could not consent service. But.be the result of this day whet mislay,-an
!to make a change in an important department by the opportunity:will be afforded me of asking ti Cie eth4sre
adoption of as recommendation which must bepainfulito opposed:to-me,sand wbO orra.gn me no. how" peirve
thaso,..vannely, the transfer a the. serarices of 'a- Merito-. tent .rrty Vfdr&-(Loud. chews). Ors Mr. .oinizing's
tiousiralividual—He had moved 1.,f 41r Ainiitty belhgfoi,med, 'avowed my' intiutints of
. ..•. • -
fommlttce and siloulds the last to under, aisectiseir. resiining my 40.. Ili tb eiplaniOns whithtfontitre4

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