Star.
London, England, 1829-03-03 00:00:00

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really wised!, when allowance was. rads . for the late be More eipmelve to Mown the send employed at the Tower
ateraticiti,•• , Ti• supplementary estimate •for eta- to hired 'percolate to 'Pal Map than to limp %p the present Mtn:
blished"salerl
'es, and for works of defence, barrack., bee of messengers, and leave the aces whis' in the Tower cm
them nothing. If these latter were abandoned they cook; be put
and militaiy buildings, voted last year separately by to no two. •
we 'department, had now been transferred to the Mr. M A DIMLY thought the offices in the Tower, as they were
ordinance and barrack estimatesi. and tie pay• of the tire-proof, would be an excellent place to keep records in.
istablislansents at the Tower and Pall Mall, charged The resolution was then agreed to.
600 A grant of II
in the' barrack and military store branch estimates the office of ordnance at . was then
Woolwipchro •posed
to
defray
the,
expense of
.. lest year, had also been transferred to the ordnance Mr. HUME thought the office of inspector of the artillery de-
ntal/HIM for 1829. The ordinary ordnance esti• partment was quite useless, and he trusted that an officer who re-
spate for 1828 was 483,5311. and from this had ceived such large emoluments would not be maintained for nothing.
In Sir H
ng. It
sutleg tARDhat thleNGEid, that the Hon. Alember was mistakes
- been transferred, as hi had just stated, to the amount
of 24,4531. total 507,9841. The ordinary estimate for tnents. The Officer who inspectorshipuedthewas aren oulfiuwce
hwelltslit leak7eremankoinu;
1829 was 477,898, and the transfer 22,712, total Major General, but only received the pay of Colonel. No one could
. 500,6101. ,hewing a diminution of 7,3741. There were deny that there was pot a great advantage in having an artillery
also some smaller reductions in the different offices. In °2
mcerr
morAelArliteLiwye
oasbinspeecdtorhof thh ry e artille.
the extrordinary Estimates, the amount- for 1829 was mate for the Inspector wleasrvoveirteeadt t
abeosvuemh i
sserpaydoWn In the Esti-
-560.7151. those for 1828 was 489,0001. the former being , Sir H. HARDINGE said, that the duties occupied the whole
•71,7151. more, including a sum of 18.4•00/. for purchasing of
. the daY' and required great experience and talent in the person
land at Sheerness, to.preserve the public works troth in- '
than
g it. Three hundred and fifty pounds per annum was net more
ee sit‘ri A au
Lemyutnheernatiop for the services required.
tension by the enlargement of the town, which was objected to a military Officer being made
closing Upon them.. He then pointed out that there was Inspector of the Carriage Department—a good wheelwright would
a small increase in Ireland this Year, the last Esti- perform the duties much better than any military man could.
mates being 128,7431. those of the present year HENRYthaStirmtlltar II Alt DIN G E said, that experience bad proved
1 28,09 i. In the superannuated military' and civil was the improvements ynt e n were
suggested very h e tobybemairryntmedentodtuhrises offig:kee.
Litt:
allowances, these few 1828 were 345,8491. those for war that raised our Ordnance generally, but particularly the car-
the • present year were 34.8,2201.—making • an in_ nags department, to so great a degree of superiority over that ig
crease of 1,3711. Under the head of barracks foe
otkertaropean Powers, as was admitted when.the allied troops
' 'Great Britain and the Colonies, the charge for wie;ilr ie .
Hrlal 3I ncelt. then complained of there being an Inspector of the
•1828 'was 131,7631. for 1829, 14.5,6361--being an in. gunpowder manufactory, .whilst we only manufactured 1,000 bar.
crease of 18,8731. for which, however, 7,s4otwas for reb a year, and that too when we had powder in store for twenty.
years, supposing no war arose. He could not see what metes. new works, postponed from former years.. In Ireland', .9". ty here was for this retie particularly as he resided in Faver.
• staler the head of barracks, there was an. increase 01 slam, In Kent, whilst the ' der, little ast
was,
was
°la i n f
Waltham Abbey. Ps"
° at.-
.9,6661. the amount having been last year 103.9051. in tared at
''. 'the' preient 113,5711. there being, howevei; Iles; credit Sit H. HARDINGE said that we had only gunpowder for
Ift the current accounts fat rent of canteens pradwe of three years, supposing a war to arise which required so great an
),, expenditure of powder as the past.
old stores, &c. to the amount of 11,1501. In th: mile- Mr. HU ih. said that we now had 200,000 barrels in store,
'nary store branch there was a diminution of charge cif s.smii of which was spoiling every day. Our consumptionfor th;
' 5,622 i. it being in 1828, 91.1941. and in 1829, 93,5721. last ten years bad beeq only, on an average, B,ood barrels a year.
Lie had thus touched cursorilg over the sever al beads •
Besides,what need was there fur the Government to make powder
of the Estimates, aware of his inability to make the at
all.
Sir H. tDtiG
ttrAulidbelglot: aluschd that that cheaper
rand
bitaittrewr by contract.ursue
t one
• ' statement as lucid at it could have been made by his time, but it had been found so expensivep that atshfd
present mode
Right Honourable Friend, who would, he trusted, sup- was adopted in its place. 'Since 1814 a saving of 25,0001. a year
ply any deficiency he had committed in Submitting his bad been made by the Government Manufacturing its own powder.
present resolution, which was, that a sum not exceedin
The powder, too, was muck better; for two barrels now went as
v
far as three used to do.
79,2441. be granted to his Majesty, to deft ay the ex- After a few observations from• Mr. Hume, Mr. Baring, and Sr.
• penses of the salaries of the Master General, the Lieute- Maberly, the resolution was agreed to.
nant General, and the rest of the principal oifiCers of A grant of 42,8171: was then proposed to pay the salaries of the
• Civil Officers of the Ordnance at home and abroad.
the Ordnance, for the year 1829.
It,. HUME said, that Waltham Abbey and Enfield were so
Mr. HUME was not much disposed to. object to the near that one Storekeeper might ' do for the two.: .•
- Estimates now before the House, after the investigation Mr. HUME also objected to the charge of 2001. a year for the
which hid taken place before the Finance Committee. salary of a Deputy Scorekeeper in Hyde-park.
a reduc.
hIr.PEUCRVAL said, that since the spring of last year
• The Secretary at. War bad given a very decided opinion don to the extent of 17.0001. a year bad been effected in the Ord-
. _As SO the impossibility of reduction. There was a great dance Department.
_increase. hose ever in the number of_ clerks under the The vote of 42,8171 Was (hen agreed to.
Surveyor Gees al ; the.number of clerks were increased Tbe neat vote was for 3,8131. for. he pay and allowances of fifty-
G toaster gunners at the garrisons and batteries in Great Britain,
from twenty•niue to forte-seven. Under the head Clerk siz
-of the Ordnance, the number of clerks had' been in. u'rensee nelit"vdotterasey•—Theto wvawse7479asmareedfor
tthe expenses of the
•' creased from twenty-three to thirty-thee; and, under Corps of Royal Engineers, Sappers, and Miners, In Great Britain
. the principal Store Keeper, the increase was irons seven- and the Colonies.
,;:teen Hi' thirty-two. This extraordinary incitase• haij defray Mr. theetiME ohjertehd to that ps
an of the vote which went to
„Iwo. been accounted for; It was greatly to be regrette
.siHnliilliti HAnse oRDINGe ;saichtthear of ell the Officers in the
-slut the Government were of opinion, that no further Army, those of ter n E • gineers were maintained in tine of peace in
.•
....reduction .could be made in those Estimates. For the moat economical manner. The duty which they performed
';'his own department be believed • there might be a was that of civil officers—principally of architects—whilst they
Yeduction of one half or two-thirds in the -Civil De. were always ready to perform an military duty to which they
y might be called; and whilst they performed the greatest share of
• penmen:. The Ar.illery and Engineers WO might duty they received the smallest pay of all Officers in the Army.—
: be placed under the ,immediate superintendence of The Resolution was then agreed to '
The next Resolution *as that of 257,341. be granted to his
the Commander-in-Chief. Unlesl there was some
Alteration in the system, however, he iNflajesty for the expenses of the Royal Regiment of Artillery.—
. admitted that • he vote was agreed to.
there could be no reduction. .Much had been said of Tne next vote was for 29,4131. for the-expense of the Horse
the reductions in this establishment, but the only (ethic- 1.
A. tillery, and the Rocket and Riding Troops.—Agreed to.
lion appeared to have been from an overgrown war es.• Theneat vote was fur 8,3924 for the Medical Koala ishmeot of
' tablishment to an enormous peace establishment. He the Military E
iwDeparumnr of the Ordnancie.—lt was agreed.to
said that he. saw no reason why Medical Officers
..- Aimed particularly to the number of messengers kept etuerir'n g the ' service should not be called upon to pertorm duty in
.
• leaf the department. There were twenty-six uses- the service of either, the army or navy, as they might be called upon.
.; Sanger,, and he did not know what *business ccati be This plan mist:: appear novel at Sat, but would very soon be found
..found for them. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded not at all Inconvenient.
RN
H. I GE said that such a plan would be very in-
.to complain of the cumbrous michinery by which the convenient, and not at all economical. During the war there were
- business of the Ordnance Department is conducted.— one hundred and fourteeu Officers in this department. It 1818
An improved system was to have been expected from there were sixty Officers, and now there were only thirty, which,
considering the number of stations which they had to attend, would
the recommendation of the Finance' Committee ; and
sot be found too large an establishment.
if Abe consolidation which they -recommended had Tye next vote was for 3,5071. for the expenses of the Profes-
been adopted, the number 'of messengers and clerks sots, Masters, &c. of the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich.—
viould have been dispensed with. He would repeat Agreed to.
what he had often urged before, namely, that it could
of gronrdeta votee was
whir' was
430,7151 d. for the extrordinary expenses
t
only be by small establishments that reduction of taxa- Mr. WAIt Bb It'f ONw, araeategrrring tto' an item in this account of,
tion could be et-cted, by which alone the country 30,0001. for the survey of Irtiend,inquired if there. was any inten.
might hope for such a diminution of its burthens as tion of engraving the plans which had been already made, so as te
? would give freedom and energy to industry, and pro- lay before the public the result, of the survey
Sir H. HA it ill NUE said, that he had heard (but nut offi-iall)
mote the interest of commerce. In almost every case front his friend Colonel Cold'reck, that art-moments had" beenY
they were told that reductions were being made; but made fur transferring to the office in the Tower, as son as possiule,
hi* was that statement reconcileable with the existing the held-work done in Ireland, with a view to its being engraved
state of every establishment in the countrY, and, espe-
and laid before the public.
cially, in the present instance—such, for ex -Hopi- as
ought hir
to . HUbe n
al Ea
avoided, a
tethatts thechargebe
tnie
untder this he
at t 3 foar the, Colonies
make
six and twenty messengers to do the business of a arrangements by which the Colonies might might
defray th t time
'own ex-
department that could be executed by a much smaller pensea. Every year there were 14.0004 required for Gibraltar,
number? In 1796, the amount was only somewhat although a law existed obliging the King to lay out upon the support
which was raised in Gil.raltar. How-
upwards of 18.0001. at present it was above 70,0001. of the works
eball tr
lawn
NOW, he complained of that amount, not because he ev
yeeser' ent
sentwteninitsnei, unngtrythiasndl-
rwe,eetsheeedmionastueyrkreaiseprdieathreerprurws•ease everyk his
Was an enemy to liberal remuneration to the servants Majesty. This was a subject which, if this House were worth any
of Government, (or that was always the surest 'way thin.; fur looking after the public money, they would inquire into.
lie thought it a subject tor which the Mitiinly ought to be int-
of obtaining faithful and effective strike, but he
large sum was required for
complained of the epenie because it was unnecessary, Pttaeheti. In
the
same
manner
a
Ceylon, though every year 60,0001. or 70,0001. came trial: that
and pr duced the country no value in return. Colony to the. East India Company. He !Wilt alluded to the
Mi.PERCEVAL, in the statement which he had C*I""Y of Sierra Leone, where 55,0001. had been laid out in build-
ing: Chapel which bad not yet been roofed in.
build-
suede, adverse f to a circumstance that Was to him a
source of gratification—namely, th it the only increase pendire'di‘ulpon
A BEhlet IcaaYrresdaistls-twh:to,allol
our
ehed moknesuysewdhaich
ihsatdthbi
ees
cnooexi:
inthe expenses of the .department was of a nature lilvly ,say, as the inhabitants would certainly day
ymtlore long determine upon
to be popular, because it was of that particular kind of Saverrike themselves.
he following resolutions were put and agreed to:
.f
expense from a Inch the country got sornc.i.ing rot their he sum
in
of rielal.
7211.1 for defraying the charges of the barrack
money. On the subject of consolidation be begged to department
say that he had been mi.undettootlL--it was i.f certain The sum of 93,6121. for the military store brands of Great
trahsfers that he ipok ;different Cleats and officeri had Britain and the Colonies.
The Aim of 2 ,6001. for defraying Exchequer fees on tile pay
consolidated under one head. As to the Aix and
menu
of the Ordnance estimates of last ear
Sweaty -Messengers, there Mere, in fact, only twenty four,Tho-aram of 6,11 'yof *
Sl. for five companies the Royal Staff corps,
and they had quite as much to do as they were able. transferred to the Ordnance.
• Mr. A. BAILING adverted to the tom of 6.73d1 for lents at On the motion of Sir A. GRANT the House resumed, when
Quebec, Montreal, and Kingston. What he wished' to know was, Sir A. GRANT brought up the resolutions, and the report was
whether the suns was for new works, or merely expended in re. ordered to be received on Wednesday next.
pairing the ordinary establishments? writs AIM 1116114:
Sir H. lIARDINGE said that the sums expended on work; lo On the motion of the Citascau.os of the Escrow's, the House
Canada had received the sanction of Parliament, and no further resolved iuelf into a Committee of Ways and Means: The report
solo bad been expended. The gross a.nount-was 5311,0001. and the was agreed, to be received to-morrow ; and the Chairman obtained
expenditure of that sow proceeded at the rate of 35,0001. a year. leave* to lit again on Wednesday.
'The canal upon which so large a portion of that suns was exp.sided Sir. A. GRANT brought up the Report of the Committee of
write public work, which could not fail to promote in a very high Supply en the Navy Eatimaies.—Agreed to.
degree, and be conducive to, the civilisation of the colony. MOUT SILL. - •
Me. A. BARING doubted the expediency of continuing an Sir H. HARDING/I brought up the Report of the Army
vulva expenditure for the benefit of 4 country which might at nO Mutiny Bill; the Re.olutions were read sod agreed to.
distant peeled cease to be ouri. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought• up a
Mr. HUME wished again to call the attention of the Coimmittee statement of, the Army Rirraordissries and Civil Contingencies.—.
go the six and twenty memengers--( A laugh). Ordered to be printed.
Sir HENIIIY HARDINGR said, that the messengers against The House adjourned at Haw-mass &run.
*hick so much complaiot was made. were not only necessary, but
petnEy wars saving; the messenger for instance,, who passed Sic Rostrar bums'. clerical voters at the late Oxford
Wevreen Woolwich, was a saving of gOtif. a year. election are said to have been ia the proportion of three to one over
Mr. MABRitLY thought that much of the business at present his Matti Honourable opponent. . .
Jobe by h evil messenger milk be done by the military messengers •
Hr. P4l. is expected to be returned for the borough
paisintomey day between Woolwich and. London. The House of Westbury, in the room of Sir M. Lena
was "Wiled to a• AM esplanatioa of the ground on which the re- Mr. Sperms was yesterday to be returned for Ripon,
eomosimilelmt or die Runes Committee was 4XX:cgs: and sled)
free of any expense whatever,
the prossisetreoneuidAhlr never carried Into effect. In the event of the resignation of the present Attorney
Mr.PlECEVAliareferred to th• printed evidence of Sir Henry General be will be eueceedetin'that office by Sir N. Teems.. /feedings, shop before the Finance Committee, In sat of tfic Lieutenant• General Sir WILMA'S CLlatToat has re-
estiossrec widellierstoved.
After p few wools from Sir H. Hardinge and Mr. Malierly, signed his seat for Newark.
Me. HUME said that be visited the ordnance stores, in Tooley. The Judges, on the Western Circuit left town ou Sa•
jars* end she superintendent dame
admitted that every one of his turday. Mr. Justice belMelisla mosoal, to the scat
el ells reirC4ll, eeeetilldadon were perfectly practicable, And of the Duke of Weissman* at
.. r bet Mr. Jingle*
tkupere alibesessady acted on. • Gemara went direct Boratinontesb Mpet m tbe noway of
CItAtiCILLOB of the XXCLUMISBesid this' it wield 1 to
wooing Inetholoildwkis'ex*P4V • t • • .
.k. • .