Star.
London, England, 1819-12-14 00:00:00

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prison, for he believed it was the opinion of the Lawl
Officers of the Crown, that the place to which he
alluded, was in the contemplation of the law so con-
sidered. He should be sorry to see any Gentleman.
of respectability sent to the prison in its present state,
and he should take care,. if it. were necessary, that
the requisite accommodation should be prepared—
( Hear,- !tear ).—All that was wanted was a little
time;, and he hoped at least that a day or two would
be giren before the commitment should be ordered.
The question was then read from the Chair,'
Mr. MARTIN—" Sir, I would be the last man in
this House"—EHere the Honourable Member was
interrupted by a general burst of laughter, it being
perceived that he was addressing the Chair from the
Gallery.)—He then begged to assure the House, that
he would not have spoken from that place, if.he had
not found it impossible, from the crowded state of
the benches below, to find an opportunity of deliver-
ing his ppiniun in his usual place--(Hear, hear). He
would be the last man in the House to wish to ag-
gravate the punishment of any individual ; but he
had for a long time attended in that House, and
when he recollected that he had seen others brought
to the Bar for offences not greater than that now 1)e-
-fore the House, and that he had seen those persons
committed to Newgate, he could not understand why
a different course should he now pursued—(Hear,
hear). He could not think it was fairly reasoned, that
because this Gentleman'wes richer or better informed
than others, he should therefore be punished in a way
different from others—(Hear, hear). If the House.
proceeded thus with regard to Mr. Ilobhouse, might
it not be imputed, and dangerously imputed, at a
time like the present, that the House was afraid to
d.al with him as it ought to do?—(Hear, hear).—
Might it not be said, that the House, in hereafter re-
fusing simian leniency to others, by not committing
them, permitted a distinction in its punishments,
founded upon a difference of persons, not a difference
of clime ?—( Hear, hear). If the House committed
him to Newgate, if he submitted to the ordinary
course, and then made an application fur leniency,
tiq on the ground of ill health, he (Mr. Martin) would
willingly accede to such an application. But he
would rather get rid of the whole of the present pro-
ceeding, and leave the Author to he prosecuted by
the Attorney-General—(No, no! from several parts
of i/fe House)—than have the ordinary course altered.
He was not disposed to do that, however ; he was
only willing to' do it, rather than that the House
should not pursue the proper measures in times like
the present. He was not particularly desirAis that
the Gentleman should be committed to custody. 13ut
that was the ordinary course, and he could not see
how it was to be avoided. If, when Mr. Hiabhouse
was committed, an applicatiOn should be made, :Lit-
ing that, from the nature-of the prisiu,. he was ap-
prehensive of ill consequences, the House, no doubt,
would give it their attention. But be-should be first
committed, as any other individual, under similar
circumstances—(Herr, hear,. and cries of Question!)
. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that he could
scarcely believe the House had given sufficient con-
iideration to the publication in question, or they
would not seem so disposetl to accede to the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman's motion. He had read
the pamphlet carefully, and though there was in it
carte language which he would not defend, still he
denied the inference
drawn from it by the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman. He could; not perceive
that the passage most strongly commented upon had
the tendency imputed to it, of exciting the People-%
the exercise of " brute force." The anther' certainly
had no intention to convey such an idest: He merely
s tid, that the House had rendered itself obnoxiout to
the People; that it had • lost its character, whith
kould only be supported by the affection and re-
ierect of the Public. '
Lord,CASTLEREAGH rose to order. He ap-
pealed to the House, whetter the Honourableßarisnet
was in order in pursuing such a line of observation,
iviten the nature of the publication was not the ques-
tion before the House? When. that question Was
under consideration, it yeas competent to any Mem-
ber to speak to the character of the pamphlet. But
that question was desidedv and the House was now
deliberating only upon the mode in which it should
be punished.
Mr. BROUGHAM agreed, that the question now
was, not whether. the pamphlet was or was not libel-
lous? but though the House had decided upon the
character of the publication, still he believed it was
competent to his Honourable Friend to urge all kind
of matter which could possibly tend to mitigate the
punishment—( Hear, hear, hear). No doubt it was
now too late to deny that the publication was a libel,
but it appeared to him that the author was now in
the situation of a person brought up to the Court of
King's Bench to have judgment passed upcn
and that every thing might be contended for which
would lessen the penalty—(Hear, hear).
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, he was about to
prove, that the pamphlet did not deserve the charac-
t-.:r imputed to it. Ilia as that question had been de-
Aded, and it seemed to be the feeling .of tie House
that it should not be renewed, he would submit
( Hear 1 ) He could not, however, avoid observing,
that it was a very RhadaranthztAike kind of prek-
ceeding, .for it was upon the principle—" Decide
first, wed you may read after !" He doubted whether'
it was of much advantage to say any thing in raiti-
gation of punishment, sifter so extraordinary a trial;
Cut he would beg leave to observe, that there was
strong ground for such a mitigation, in the notorious
fact, that others were allowed to commit breaches of
privilege, of at least equal enormity, without any
animadversion whatever. He alluded to that part
of the Press which was under the patronage of Go-
vernment. The Ministerial newspapers issued grosser
libels upon that house, thin any which could be
f6und in the censured pamphlet, and to prove his as-
sertion, he would take leave to read a paragraph
from The Morning Post
Mr. W. W YNNE rose to order. He believed it
was out of the usual line of proceeding in the House,
td cuperadd to a question like that now before the
House, a new matter for consideration, as would
. be the case if they were now called upon to say
Whether the passage which the Honourable Baronet
- was about to read, was or was not a breach of privi-
lege. He apprehended that it was not competent for
any Member to read any writing from another per,
son, in which a breach of privilege was committed,
merely for the purpose of argument. Nor could a

newspaper be read in the lillaeiabigitr
aanfsoonitleumr otter
rr-
pose thanahak of making a comp
which wits grintedin it.
Sir FRANCIS BURDWIT,• though called to or-
' der by the Honourable Member who just sat down,
was still as ignorant as before how he *as out of or-
der—(Hoer, hear!)—He thought it a strong ground'
Of argument upon which he was proceeding, though
kepis of opinion, that no writing could be any thing
more than a constructive breach of privilege. He
would not hold that any writing was of itself a
breach of privilege. He would allow that such an
offence might be committed by a person attempting
to impede any process of the House, or doing any
act, by which it should be brought into. contempt.
It was essential to the public interests, that all the
rights of the House should be upheld. But when one
writing was condemned, it was perfectly fair to call
the attention of the House to another. The HOn.
Baronet then proceeded to read from The Morning.
Post of Friday last, the following paragraph :
" In the House of Commons, last night, Mr. Bennet brought
forward his,promised motion, ostensibly for an inquiry into the
present state of the Manufacturing districts, but really for the
promotion of party and mischievous views?
Mr. BANKES rose to order. He submitted that
it was impossible for any Gentleman to be allowed
to read a paper of that kind within the walls of the
souse of Commons—(Hear, hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM rose to 'order. No one was
more willing to bow to the authority of the House,
and to uphold its privileges, than himself; but no
Member should abdicate his functions so far, as to
submit to individual opinion, until he knew what the
final judgment of the House would be—(Hear,l:ear).
In his opinion, the Honourable Gentleman who op-
posed the line of argument adopted by his Honour-
able Friend, formed his decision rather zoo hastily;
when he expressed, himself so decidedly waist the
competency of the topic which was introduced. It
was a topic allowed at all times, and on all questions
which became the subject of litigation. It was al-
lowed in the case of Reeves; it was introduced by
Mr. Pitt himself, when first the True Dillon pub-
lished certain reflections upon the proceedings in the
impeachment against Lord Melville—(Henr, hear).
It was a common mode of argument, when one was
charged with an oflence, to refer to others who had
committed a similar offence with impunity. It would
have been consistent in Gentlemen to offer these ob-
jections, if they had differed from his honourable
Friend a little more in general topics. Thus, for in-
stance, why did not the Honourable-Member interrupt
the Member for Yorkshire the other night, when he
.quoted, arid quoted largely, from the pamphlet in
questiqt ?(Hear, hear). Was he-prepared to con-
tend, that there was any essential distinction between
a pamphlet and a newspaper? Was there no affinity
between them ?--(llcar, hear). Yet wheit the Ho-
nourable Member was reading it, nobody rose to stop
hirri. And it was not tilt after he had. read a large'
portion of: the said pamphlet, and read' it uninte'r
ruptedly—it teas not Until after the question was put
and carried by a majority, which, for auht he knew,
was influenced. by the quotations, that his Honour-
able and Learned Friend opposite' had ever thdught
of asking, whether. the Member who read the pant-
phlet bad atiy intention. of making it ground for a,
complaint of A breach of privilege?—(Rear, hear)..
If that line of argument was conststetit with' justice
and order in one case, it must be so in another.; and
until some great difference between the two cases was
shewn, he could not see the insularity so much oba
jee!ed to—(ifiar hear).
Mr. BA NKES said, why the reading of the pam-
phlet, at the time alluded to, was not interrupted, he
was not prepared to say. It was for the House to
say, whether or not it was a violation of order? If
the Hon. Baronet had introduced the topic generally,
he would not have ajected to it. All he had ob-
jectel. to was, hii proceeiing to read a paragraph
from a neu spryer, the very hist words of which con-
tained a bleach of the privilege of the House: and
this the Honourable Baronet proceeded to do, with-
out intimating any intention to make that paragraph
a ground of complaint, or even to make it a part of
his speech.
he SPEAKER—Perhaps the House would pat:-
don him, but lie thought he might be permitted to
state what occurred tojim under the present circum-
stances. It was clear that the House, having decided
on the pamphlet in question, and having affirmed it
to be a breach of privilege, the Honourable Mem-
ber, speaking in extenuation, was veimittett a wide
field. It dici-not appear to be in order that a Member
should cite another lihel, and apply it with a view
of extenuation. Whatever was the meaning of the
words, it was competent to any Member re advance
them distinctly; but if he-did so advance them as
libellofis, he was bound to prefer them as matter of
complaint. The Honourable Baronet would have-
stood in a different situation before the House had
decided upon the character of tla! pamphlet. It
would have been then open to him to contend, that if
the pamphlet were considered strong in its langtage,
he could produce words still stronger. But he should
follow up the argument by denying that the stronger
words were not libellous, and thus conclude that
therefore the weaker words were not libellous. To
make the passage alluded to in the Newspaper bear
in the way of extenuation, he could only urge that
they were stronger than the language of the pam-
phlet, but that they were not libellous, and therefore
the pamphlet was not so. If the Honourable Mem-
ber wished to mention these words as libellous, he
could ran do so without making them matter of coin-
', plaint. He hoped he had rendered himself
I Bible to the House ; but he would say, that with re
gard to reading from printed papers as parts of
speeches, Members would perhaps feel it personally
incumbent upon them not to stretch that hewn
which the House granted as a conveniency, to the
injury of justice.
Mr. WYNN said, no Member could read. from a
rinted paper, except by leave from the House, un-
less it was to bring that paper before them as a breach
of privilege.
The SPEAKER observed, that the ordinary course
of reading extracts was, he conceived, a practice 4.
lowed for general conveniency, and the strict order
of the House was still in operation to prevent its
abuse—( Hear, hear).
Mr. STUART WOMAN explained, that he ha(
not brought forward the breach of privilege, but re:
ferred to the pamphlet in support of the argamenf
he was using:
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT pid, as it was so dit

S

leak ib *Mit he hag intended, he should abstain
fious priedeohis view of the question.
The quesuon was put that the words " to his Ma-
jesty's jail of Newrate" proposed .to be admitted,
stand part of the Motion
Ayes 198—Noes O.—Majority 133.!
The SPEAKER then put the question—
u That Joks Cart Ifoihouse be committed to Newgate ; and
that the Srsanza do issue his warrant accordingly.—Agreed to.
NEW MEASURES.
Mr. BARNET presented a Petition from certain
Inhabitants of Rochester, against the passing of the
Restrictive Measures at present in their progress
through the House, which they considered as sub-
versive -of the Constitution. The Petition was or-
timed to lie on the table, and to be printed.
Mr. CAVIERT presented a Petition from the In-
habitants of the Borough of Southwark, expressive.
of their reprobation of the measures* at present in
their course through the House, and of the Seizure
of Arms Bill in particular. The Hon. Gentleman
observed, that it would not appear extraordinary
that he had not hitherto been able to find an oppor-
tunity of stating his sentiments on the momentous
questions referred to in the Petition he now held in
his hand, when it was considered that there were six
hundred and fifty-eight Members in that House, most
of them. anxious to speak, and some of them not sa-
tisfied with speaking once on the same question. The
Honourable Gentleman briefly went over the trans-
actirins of the 16th of August last, which, he said,
he viewed with horror. 'I he means employed to dis-
perse the Meeting of the People on that occasion
were rigorous in the extreme, and unueressary. He
would put it to any one, who was of a different opi-
niop, how it was possible to disperse, according to
law, 50,000 persons in the course of a few minutes?
He also contended, that if Ministers were to go on
much longer in the same course they had followed
wide ard to this question, they would raise a spi-,
rit inane country which the adoption of measures
like the present would in vain labour to quell.
On the question being put from the Chair, “ That
this' Petition be now brought up,"
Sir ROBERT WILSON followed his Honcurable
Friend in support of the Petition. He observed, that
while his Constituents, in whose behalf this Petition
was presented, were the firm friends of peace and
good order, and determined to defend the Constitu-
tion, they were by no means inclined to give up the
tried and acknowledged maxim, that the People were
the source of powei. The Petitioners complained,
that they saw in the Bill for the Seizure of Arms a
revolutionary made of governing. They saw in the
Libel 13111 a determination, not to remove solely all
sedition and blasphemy from the Press, but to remove
'indefinitely all that should be obnoxious to that systeid
of despotism which the rulers of this Country were
sendeavom jog to establish. They saw in the whille
'iiieasures a tendency to abolish the sacred Right of
:Meeting, for the purpose of discussing grievances,
and of Petitioning Parliament on the same. It had
hitherto been held, that an Englishman's house was
his castle, Arnund which the elements might whistle,
and which they might enter, but which the King
might not enter. What had now become of this no-
tion? The abject was to be exposed to have his
bolts broken open ; the peace and domestic order of
his house interrupted ; and to be exposed to the brutal
violence and the lust of midnight invaders. The Pe.
ritioners declare, that if such measures were allowed
to pa's, the only remedy, in their opinion, was, that
his Majesty's Ministers be declared unworthy of the
royil confidence, and that it was hoped and expected
that they would be dismissed; but, if they should
still conth:ne in the confidence of the Sovereign, they
feared a system of oppression would be persevered in
againit the People, which would goad them on to
skew that it was beyond their power of sufferance.
The Petition was then brought up, ordered to lie
on the table, and to be printed.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved the third reading
of the Seditious Meetings Prevention Bill.
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON declared, that

voting, as he was abort to do, in favour of this mea-
sure, he gave his vote with more regret than ever he
did on any former occasion, as he was about to differ
from his Honourable Friends nw him. No one could
respect more highly than he did, the rights of his
fellow-countrymen, but the freedom of the 'present
times seemed to consist in an abuse of those rights,
and to be employed solely for the purpose of taking
away the rights of others. He hoped, that in giving
his vote on the present occasion, he would not be un-
derstood as acquiescing in the other measures of Mi-
nisters; or that either his duty to his Country, or his
principles were compromised by acting thus. His
object in doing so, was to perform that duty the more
sincerely. He admitted all the objections urged
against the Bill by his Honourable Friends; but he
was internally convinced, that the state of the manu-
facturing districts was waists demanded some mea-
sure of that description, and it was that conviction
gone that influenced his vote—(Hear, hear).
Mr. lIUTCUINSON did not feel the same reluc-
tance as his Noble Friend who had just sat down in
giving his vote. He declared his dissent, not only
to the present measure, bat to the whole of the mea-
sures introduced by the Noble Lord opposite since
the commencement of the Session. The Noble Lord
had, in all his dealings with foreign countries shewn
a disposition to under-rate and make war against the
liberties and privileges of mankind in general; and
now that his attention was exclusively turned towards
his own country, he did not seem disp•sed to lose
any time in his endeavours to effect his favourite de-
signs in this respect. He (Mr. Hutchinson) believed
in his soul, that the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had no'
apprehension respecting the state of the country,fur-
diet than that if the People were allowed to continue
to exert the right of petition as they had hitherto
done, he would be compelled to abandon the system
OD which he had founded his dearest hopes and ex-
pectations. In the event of this Bill being carried,
he should propose a clause for the purpose of ert.
erupting Ireland from its operation. He could not
conceive upon what grounds the Noble Lord could
defend his having extended this Bill to Ireland. He
bad himself said, in opening to the House the nature
of die measures which he -had since proposed; in al-
inding to that part of the Royal Speech which ad-*
vats to.the. state.of the manufacturing districts, that
-he had known Ireland in ti much wen* *tate, ad at
the same time admitted, thid all the sliming symp-
toms whiCh had evinced themselves in that country
had now entirely ipbalded. To this %%amp marl

,Irish Members had since borne testimony,
Ireland (Ms. C. Grant). He denied what
*horn was the Right Honourable the Sec. .1
said with regard to the pr,.si.erity of Ireland.
that country there was a total want of trade aa.l ,
nufactures,•and it was his belief that, YH. a.,
ception of the linen trade, the only flourishing
was the contraband. There was a total failtir7'
else ; and Gentlemen who had the means of know;
could state, that a most frequent sight in the ir
tacturing parts of Ireland, was that of a naked'
ptarving peasantry. Instead, therefore, of at ply
Measures of the description of the present to,
country, he had rather see the Noble Lord ao
colleagues cd'ming forward e ith measures for the
tivation of some of its mountains, or in prepatiw, .
something tending to amelior ate its condition. 64
subject, he could not help expressing his
the Irish Members of that Ilouse should not ~
themselves in a better way abotiethezaterests (if;
country, than by merely shewing themselves
fled to add to the numbers of the Noble Lord i.
vising measures for oppressing of it! It ail;
ominous to the happiness of Ireland to see ~
Irish Members swelling the ranks of the Admi:Ji
tion on this occasion. Was it in vengeance to
country that they did this ? or how did it tally
the representation which had.been made on a
evening by one of them, that they had left
homes in the hour of danger. for the purpose
fending their cause in that House ?—,(l hot,
He would ask the Noble Lord what reasons hen)
'have for extending those measures to helm!+
also called upon the Right Honourable Merrber
the University of Dublin (Mr. Plunkett), for
character and talents lie had the.highest
get up and state what were the inducements of
Administration to take such a step? News had
received that day from the capital of Itel,oni,
stated the general feeling of alarm u!ii:lt etrAi
the country, an hearing of thi, intentio,, „r;
of Minister:. It was in consequerico of the
and Manufacturing Meetings which ila,f
in this country' that the present n,ctsurei
duced. In this view, however. they would nut
to Ireland. lie called on arty Member in th..t h
to state that any Parliamentary Rdol-nt
had takep place in Ireland. It was true Mats's.
lars had seen sent forth for the purpose of t "
such Meetings, but they had nct had the eifert
tended. Even after the transactions of the Iris
August, not a single Meeting had taken place,
claratory of the feelings of horror which
been felt by the whole population at the rAit.ii
them. It had not been thought necessary, vd:tv
Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended, in
extend its -suspension to /*eland ; and rii
Union, when that Act was suspended is
.the country pnt under military law, the same
dons had nbt been applied to Great Britain. lit
then, were two precedents for Irek,:id beirg .
lempted from the operation of the niea:ures
thought necessary for England... Was it no eltject
the Noble Lord to keep Ireland quiet? It WL
knciwledged on all hands to be so at presort, 2:i
.would remain so if it was nct deterraiaetl to dew
to madness by opposing it. In respect to whe
bad already said as to the defalcation' of the
Gentlemen from their country, lie was so:ry to tee
Great Captain—and an Irishman—rorraing oned'
Administration, and in-the hour of danger nothmii:
troops againsta foreign foe, but heading Englishra
to put down the liberties of his country 9. (Mar,
He was aware, that Gentlemen who were cor;..c.',,
with those parts of Great Britain which wore in
state of tranquillity, would say, that it amid bee
fair to apply the operation of these nreasmestsithg
districts, and exempt Ireland. To this, howtveril
would answer, that there was a natural cons,etioni
tween these Counties and the most remote Coundoi
the Island ; whereas no such connexion existed vi
regard to Ireland. This country was sea-girt 11
Honourable Gentleman concluded by appealing;
all the Members in that House, whether for Wab
England, or Scotland, to join him in rescuingd
Sister Country from the imposition of those opts
sive measures.

to
tie
tv

Mr. LESLIE FOSTER contended, that had::
been for what had fallen from the 'knot:rahlc
tleman who had just sat down, the people of
would probably never have known of the
of that measure—(Citeering from the 07Tosdiol
Ministerial Benches). He did not mean zz s2v, '
the Honourable Gentleman's speech was calol,.
to give them warning of it; but had it not bees
that, they would not have been practically a:qui&
with it-;-(Hear). All Meetings in Ireland ue
under cover, and therefore this Bill could not pr
cally affect them. With respect to the tranquillit!
that country, he would observe, that as it had
decided that it should not be a local Bill, that No
pot hold as an argument for its exemption. lie
not know if the Honourable Gentleman was vi
that ambassadors had actually been sent to I
from Manchester, and were now on their rerombu
tions in that country ; and it was not to he sair.
that they would omit any thing calculated to eui
the people to open acts of disaffection. Ile rea
believed that this measure was as desirable a one 1
Ireland as for any part of Great Britain.
Mr. PLUNKETT said, he had been srs
called upon by the Honourable Member (MPH.'
chinson), that, however much he might have fat
clined, it was impossible for him to refuse to C
his call. He did not know that it was usual is
course of debates to call on any individual for
bi
sentiments thereon—(Hoar)--but he confessed 1,"
self so much of an Irishman, that he could mitre:.
the challenge on the present occasion—(lleac, 4,.
'He felt grateful to the Honourable Gentleman lett:
high mention he had made of his character athi:
lents; the former, howevea, he was in no appie-,
sion was likely to suffer—(Hear, hear). Thar II
nourable Gentleman, he observed, had his roe:
politics, and no doubt the part he had tak6i 1-*
'evening was in conformity with that line. But '
begged him to understand, that he (Mr. Pluni:
hid also his, and he hoped his conduct on that qv•
tion would agree with it. - He had often had cc
sion to differ. from -him, and he never rememl,
to have regressathis having done so—Wear, he,-,
'PM Honourable.Gentleman had talked much abo
fik liberty and rights of the-people having been''
vided; but he would ask, what was that liberty, 11'those rights? He had been accustomed to consi4c
Deny U" "'Owens quiersid per lejes 444 i.