Star.
London, England, 1819-02-26 00:00:00

;meet to the House of Hanover, hi-opposing the ](honks of Admiralty—(some siturieo4. 'hr isfts
41,, if it were agreed ,to, would weaken of 10,0001. a-year could not, therefore, add to his
fieli„gs which attach the. people to the Royal dignity or splendour. It was degradingi and dero-
gatory in the character of the office, as the King's
son, to accept such a remuneration for performing
what wet his duty to his father and Sovereign. Ft
was degrading, and 'lamentably disgusting, to 'see
such an account lying upon every table throughout
the country.--lying on the table of every publican,
of every kitchen, and canvassed and criticised by the
eyes of all descriptions of people, from the highest to
the lowest, The Establishment at Windsor had been
amply provided for, without this additional munifi-
cence of,Parliament—(Hear, hear, and coughs from
Me opposite side). The Honourable Member said,
that were he not satisfied that he had in some degree
already discharged his duty, he would not be fearful
to encounter the reproaches of some Gentlemen, tint
would construe their meaning of coughs into cheers!
Mr. C. W. WYNNE thought it improper to mix
up the services of his Royal Highness in the manner
which the last Honourable Gentleman had chosen.
It was not conformable to the taste or judgment
which these proceedings demanded. He offered this
remark without any invidious comparison, or any in-
tention of giving the smallest offence to the Honour-
able Member. With regard to his Royal Highness's
emoluments, as Commander-in-Chief he (Mr. Wynne)
was of opinion that the House had nothing to do
with that branch of his income. No man had ever
filled an office with greater honour to himself br
greater advantage to the country.. If his Royal
Highness was invested with the very important office
of the Custos, there would certainly be some addi-
tional trouble imposed upon him ; but although he
(Mr. Wynne) would not condemn the proposed sa-
lary in tot o, yet the Ministers were to blame for ex-
,posing his Royal Highness so any chance of public
odium on the occasion. The office could not surely
require an expenditure to the amount proposed. It
was within the recollection of Gentlemen that the
Queen had acted as Custos one year without any sa-
lary. But when in the course of nature the bodily
infirmities of her Majesty had increased, it was found
expedient, with the additional duties she had to per-
tbrm, to assign her a salary. Her Majesty was
not required to reside constantly at Windsor.—
By her absence from that place, Ate was deprived of
the advantage of the King s household establishment.
The salary was therefore granted to defray the ex-
penses of her residence at Weymouth or Bath, or to
whatever other places her Majesty's medical advisers
recommended her. The Honourable Gentleman had
no particular objection to the stein, if thought neces-
sary; but let the House vote it not ai a salary, for
the vote in any other shape would be less exception-
able. It would have been wiser on the part of Mi-
nisters to have proposed at once an aggregate sum,
rather than to have excited a serious difference, by
calling upon them to vote it as a salary. Had this
been an aggregate sum, or had the sum been ex-
pressed as a gift, many objections would hare been
obviated. For the expenses which-might be incurred
by the office, the Duke ought to have compensation.
Gentlemen should bear in their mind, that it was not
a private case. Besides the duties of a son to a fa-
ther, his Royal Highness had the public duty of
Custos; and it ought to be recollected' that his Royal
Highness was not permitted to discharge those duties
as a person in an inferiorstation or in a private family.
Mr. BATHURST wished to impress upon the
minds of Gentlemen, that the Royal Duke, in
situation of Custos, became an Officer of the Public,
and therefore deserved remuneration for his services.
His Royal Highness had not solicited this additional
public duty ; it was imposed upon him by an Act of
Parliament. The question was a question of money—
how much might be saved by a refusal of the pro-
' posed grant ? The sum of £lO,OOO was proposed on
the one side of the House, and £5OOO on the other.
For his part, he would support the former sum. If
his Royal Highness deserved any salary or compen-
sation, the sumiof £IO,OOO was not too much. It
had been proposed by an Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Wynne) that the sum should be voted as an
aggregate. With all due deference to that Honour-
able Gentleman, he was of a different opinion. If
some Gentlemen felt a delicacy for the irksome situ-
ation of his Royal Highness, that situation was attri-
butable to the opposition made to the proposed grant.
Lord CARHAMPTON rose with great reluctance
to give his opposition to any grant for any part of
the Royal Family, particularly one proposed for the
Duke of York. But with all his respect and attach-
ment to the Royal Duke, he considered that he had
a duty to perform as a Member of Parliament; and
as a Member of Parliament freely exercising his pri-
vilege, he could not help saying, that the vote pro-
posed was an unprincipled, an unfeeling, and an au-
dacious attempt to degrade his Royal Highness in
the eyes of the people. Ministers deserved the se-
verest censure for the public odium in which they in-
volved
his Royal Highness. The Noble Lord thought'
it incumbent upon him to resist, with his utmost
power and ability, the motion. He would never con-
sent that the sum of £lO,OOO shoidd be wrung from
an oppressed people, to gratify the rapacity of those
who formed the present administration. His Majes-
ty's present servants had no other object in view by
the proposition now submitted to the House but to
court and cajole the Royal Family` at the expense of
character and honour, But the people ought to
be undeceived. They ought to learn, that the
sum of ten thousand pounds had not been de-
manded by his Royal Highness, but had been forced
upon him, in order to render his Royal Highness in
some way very subservient to the wishes of Ministers.'
It became the latter, therefore, to use their bast en-
deavours to gain the present object of discussion; the
consequence was of the most serious description to
Ministers. His Lordship was convinced, that if they
did not succeed. that evening, "out they must go F
It was therefore necessary so marshal all their forces
in order to keep their places. But should they be
unfortunate enough not si carry their point...-which'
Lordship thought they would this evening, al;
though not by a great znajority—is Avoteld become
them, by paying court to his Royal sHighabsa rid
the other branches of the Royal conciliate
their partiality by tins. morasses
"They are contriving, if °Wry.
a train for their easy vesikia
bitter invective, churged Ministers,alerms
dium of this, obtspaious proposition, -
to commit. " a legal robbery r 4 P
if they carry the. question this

'OOPEIt said, the duty now imposed upon
ova; not to lay new burd4ns on the people,
impriate to sums on the. Civil List. If the
were continued, he could not see.why the
be diminished. He understood the vote
Hit to have been, not whether any sum
Tamed, but, admitting that some grant
Inade, out of what fund it should be taken.
lac simation of our Monarch ?---aged, af-
destitatel—and, In this situation, was the
!d upon to stint the comforts becoming his
lunation ?—(Hear, hear, !ear!) When it
iered that he had reigned more than half a
,is vote was to be consiSered as a tribute of
from a loyal and grateful people—Wear,
Adverting to the notice of a Motion for
le two Equerries, he trusted that it would

)I{DON expressed his opinion strongly in
the vote, on account of the importance of'
of the office.
;MI MS (a new Member) could not agree
course pursued on this occasion. If by any
money the comforts of out }Ting could be
he would be the last man to oppose it ;
sure throughout the whole nation there
an unanimous disposition that it should be
it as it was plain that the comfort and
sf his Majesty were in no way concern
e 4
he could not agree to it. lie could not
the Report of the Select Committee. ,It
..ig to see all the items of the expenses of
Establishment:—so much for the kitchen—
nr clothes—and all this published and dis-
'rough the country. This could only tend
;he Royal Family in the public estimation.
• some sum ought to be voted on this oc-
that 10,0001. was too much. In 1812,
tte M.r. Perceval first proposed the vote of
the Queen to meet the expenses of the'
great Statesman, than whom there was
lore attached to his king and Country, had
necessary to apologize for the magnitude
lithe sum was too great for the Queen,
coo great for the Duke of York. Looking
cumstances of the country, he thought
Loo =eh; bet considering the duties of the
thought to give nothing would be uujust.
therefore propose that the sum be 5;0001.
'EAKEII—., Does the Honourable Mem-
o move an Amendment ?"

,LIAAMS felt himself so totally without
the House, that he should hardly yen-
motiop ; but, if any Member would se-
. should move * an Amendment, that the
MOO'. instead of 10,0001.

iendment was seconded, and the question
t from the Chair.

,ONG WELLESLEY thought he should be
gross dereliction of public duty,, and a
~cation of public honour, if he could agree
motion. He would not be deterred by any
which might be used from any part of
from taking that part which he thought
Hear, hear.) He agreed very much in the
. of this subject by the Honourable Mem-
had just sat down—and that the'arrange-
the Windsor Establishment were net regu-
ust regard to a principle of economy: He
,ten thousand pounds too much to be granted
the expenses of the office of castor persona.
ived the feelings of the country to be such
the Duke of York and the Royal Family that
which was necessary would be cheerfully
He certainly had a sort of latent feeling
tm of £lO,OOO was not now proposed for
of York solely to defray the expenses of
of mew.
lIRINGTON said, though he felt it im-
add any thing to the arguments which
so 'ably urged against the present motion,
anxious to enter his protest against what
'et: to be one of the most wanton demands
on the liberality of the House. He was the
,ous of doing so from its having been urged
t of his Majesty's Ministers, that those who
for the Amendment the other night, were
.eclutled from voting against this.motion.—
had much to answer for, on account of the
itch they had dragged the Duke of Yotk
House on this occasion. Those who ar-
he other side of the I louse contended, that
of Custos was one of a high constitutional
and ought therefore to be expensive. But
iced that the sum allowed to the-Queen was
irezedent for this case. On the same prin.
hich he opposed the Motion he should also
Amendment.

COCKS thought there was no fccasion to
'Red forward the Duke of York on•this oc-

fhe office was the only thing to be consi-
id looking at its duties he thought 1:10,000
;um that could be granted.
•W. HARVEY, considering the distressed
the country, could not consent to a wanton
'less expenditure of the public money. If he
ied that the office of Castes required the sa-
:10,000 a-year on the part of the Duke of
;at is, that it made the additional expense
ly necessary, no man would more cheerfully
than himself. For what were they called

auction such a grant ? To give dignity to
!? No. The House never intended that the
4110,000 should be expended to give' addi-
tustre to his Royal Highness the Duke of York.
-;entlemen had recommended to make a dis-
between the office and the person who held
he thought impossible. In the occupancy
itiioe, we could never forget that his Royal
is was invested with that office, and That his
lighness was the son of the King. The Ho-
: Member wiJied that Ministers had favoured
ise with an estimate of the suppos23 expenses
by the Duke of York for the extra exercisil
duty. If they had ventured• upon such
calculation, the items would be found coal
into one general sum. •namely, the expense
.hire floor London to Windsor—(fleur.)l
rag the various offices of his Royal Highness,
not forget that the Duke, beside. his 18,0001.
Conimnider-in-Chief, and all its mole-
it'-'4! Co received a considerable portion of

will be able to prevail en the Ihkitt of York to aetept
the salary, after the obloquy which has accompanied
its discussion in Parliament ! No! Nod they cannot
persuade ,his Royal Highness to debase himself by
truckling thus to Ministerial despotism ! His Royal
Highness has now en opportunity of immortalizing
himself by the refusal of a grant which has created
such a difference of opinion both within and without
the• walls of that House, In imitation of the Da,
of Richelieu, who refused a pension, his Royal High-
isess will reject the odious salary !—(Hear, hear.)--
'The sum cf £lO,OOOl For what? For riding from
'London to Windsor, or from. Oatlands to Windsor!
The Duke will not stoop to accept-a salary for such a
sacrifice of character. No, No ! our Royal, Duke
will never be outdone by a Frenchman ! His Lord•
ship implored the House to resist the motion for a
salary in whatever shape it should appear. If once
ranted to the Custos—if once in the Red Book—the
public- would never get rid of it. Were a demise to
take place, which they all most sincerely depre-
cated, how :would you get rid of the Custos? You
could not have the heart to deprive his Royal High-
ness of his 10,000/. a-year as Custos. No! No ! Let
it once appear in the Red Book, and it mould bid de-
fiance to every species of'popular clamour. There it
will remain, and be transmitted to posterity. His
Lordship remembered a Ministerial expedient to aug-
ment their influence. It was the appointment of three
Commissioners for the Lottery in Ireland, even at
a time when there was no lottery ! • Well—one died.
Was the place suppressed, and thus a saving made
to the public ? No. Another was appointed to the
awe sinecure—because, if you have no Lottery now
in Ireland, the lime may come when you will, and
,thus this additicnal Commissioner will be requisite.
And so we may conclude, that if now we have a
Custos with a salary, there will always be a Custos—
because although the time may be when no Custos
li requisite, yet the time ray come when the func-
tions of a Custos will be wanted ! Let us once have
Custos with a salary of 10,0001. a-year, and we
shall alays have one attached to the Royal Esta-
blishment ;—(Hear, hear).—His Lordship bestowed
the warmest encomiums on the Duke of York, to
whom the country, particularly the army, was infi-
nitely indebted. His Royal Highness was every sol-
dier's friend, and he had the happiness of being be-
loved by every soldier. He admired his Royal High-
ness as Commander-in-Chief--but making use of his
privilege as a Member of the House, his Lordship
did not wish to see him in the additional character
now proposed ; he thought the office incompatible
with that of Commander-in-Chief—or, to use a vul-
gar phrase, he wished, as an Officer in the army, to
be always confined to " his shopr
Mr. HART believed the question was, whether
the salary ought to be taken from a distressed and
an impoverished people, or some mode adopted to
save his Royal Highness from the disgrace accom-
panying the grant ?
Mr. GRIFFITHS, referring to the representation
of the prosperqps state of the country, as flatteringly
drawn by a Noble Lord (Castlereagh), begged leave
to differ from him. • In the view which presented it-
self to him (Mr. Griffiths), the picture sbai far short
of what the Noble Lord had so alluringly given—for
even when he looked through the most favourable
magnifying glass, it appeared a mere daub, greatly
disfigured by false colouring !—(Hear, hear.)—The
pressure of the times was in the utmost degree dis-
tressing ; therefore no £lO,OOO a year ought to be
granted for the administration of an office which re-
quired little or no exertion. He would ask the ,Noble
Lord (Castlereagh) where he could find any solid
proofs of our prosperity ? Was it from our Custom
House books? That medium was not always correct
as to our internal prosperity. There had lately been
many serious and alarming failures. These misfor-
tunas were no testimonies of our internal prosperity.
In Ainsworth, near Bolton, Lancashire, more than
half a dozen large and respectable houses, suffering.
from the pressure of the times, had stopped, and
their failure had deprived more than 4000 persons
of employment. This was no proof of the truth of
the flattering description of prosperity as presented
by the Noble Lord I The Honourable Member was
hostile to any'grant of monies to the Duke of York.
The Public ought not to pay him for doing his duty
by looking after his father !
Colonel ELLISON was not afraid that the office
and salary would be converted into a perpetuity.
He did not mean by this observation to indicate any
Royal demise. " I hope in GOD that the King will
not die !" There was not a man in England that
wished such a lamentable event. The £lO,OOO a year
was but a fair and proper compensation to bjs Royal
Highness for the discharge of his additional duty as
a servant of the Public.
Colonel FREEMANTLE considered the question
as a continuance of the allowance made to the Queen.
So fax was there from being, as had been represented,
an addition to the public burthens, there had, on the
contrary, been a saving of X 50,000 a-year in the
Windsor Establishment. No man was a greater friend
to economy than himself, but, on the present occasion,
he looked to the dignity of the situation in questio4
and to the importance of its daiies, and thought that
if they at the same time considered what was due to
the public, a smaller sum could not be granted than
the sum which had originally been proposed. They
had been told of the distresses of the country ; but
were they so far red aced as to be unable to grant the
sum of g 10,000? They had been told that a cotton
manufacturer had failed (Hear, hear I) but was it to
be wondered at, that, in so great a commercial coun-
try, a single failure should have• taken place?—
(Hear, hear ! from the Ministerial Benches.) But on
the other hand, they should look to the advantages
which had been gained (Hear, hear!) He thought
that the question cosild be taken only on the sum ori-
ginally imposed, and that if they did not grant that,
se would be betteo to grant nothing. If he was to
judge of the feelings of the people, he firmly believed
that they would be favourable to the sum originally
=sad. ha the whole of the discussions on Mr.
cal% Bill, that.wliith was least objected to was
the grant. tb *Queen ;" and he felt confident, that

watch on the question, which he conceived to lie in
a narrow compass. He wished principally to answer
.the'objections which had been -raised on the ground
of his arguments the other evening ; but betoredOiqg
so, he ahould call the attention of the House to the
ress of the Bill. A.Bil/ had been passed in the
use orlfaerds' by which his Royal Highness the
h' Of York had been aminted Custos, without
any,provision" of remnneration for the discharge of
its duties. If he understood him correctly, the NO-
, ble ,Lord (Castlereagh) had on a formig evening
ed to the House, that his Royal Highness the
eke. Alf York did not make application for any so-
ry, but objected to it as coming from the Privy
-Purse. The Noble Lord had said, that it was only
necessary to state the nature of the office to be of a •
public kind, and that thelefore it should be attended
with a public salary. But the contrary was true, for
the office was without a saTary, as it was stated that
the sum to be given was in censequence of certain
expenses attendant on the office. However, an at-
tempt was now made to give the 130,000 salary for
the discharge of the office. Although it was unplea-
sant, as had been often said, to estimate the expenses
requisite for a specific object by pounds, shillings,
and pence, yet, for his part, he could see no other
way of doing so with correctness. The situation re-
quired nothing more than to attend twice a week at
Windsor. A thousand or Stems hundred pounds
a-year would be more than sufEcient to meet the ex-
penses of travelling to and from Windsor so often,
taking into account the high charge for post-horses.
Was it too much for. him then to pause before he
would agree to grant £10,000? There was some
reason to believe that it was demanded• under false
pretences. Something, he shrewdly suspected, ex-
isted in the back ground, of which they knew no-
thing. Let Ministers speak out. If his Royal High-
ness really wanted this sum, they should say so
openly; but he, for one, would not consent to grant
it without knowing for what. Much was said about
the acts of liberality his Royal Highness would be.
called upon to perform, on the part of his Majesty,
in his situation of custo.i, He knew of no acts of li-
berality that would become incumbent on him in
that capacity, more than those which his known ge-
nerosity of disposition led him to perform before.
Would he be reqiiired to pay more on the score of
liberality than was usually paid before out of the
Royal purse ? They should consider what the nature
of the office was. It was, as every person knew, held
by her Majesty previously to her. death. It was re-
presented to be a most important public office. If
such was the case, the country, for some months, was
very hardly dealt with, because, in point of fact,
since June last there was no custos capable of dis-
charging the duties of the place ; her Majesty, from
that time to her death being preventeciby illness, and
there was no curios at all since November.—(Hear.)
How could Ministers account for this ? They must
feel rather awkwardly during that time. The death
of her Majesty was foreseen long before the event
occurred. The town was kept for some months, in
agitation expecting to hear of it every day. Why
was not Parliament, in the interval, called upon to
appoint some person Ito this important duty ? The
balance Ministers had to strike was between the two
questions, whether his Majesty was to be without a
Custos, or the country without a Parliament, and
they chose the latter. The situation of Custos was
called a /subtle office, and one of great responsibility.
He would deny both... Her Majesty held no public
office, and could not hold one of responsibility—
(Hear, from the Opposition.) Was the Queen Con-
sort capable of filling a public office? •If they said
s'o, would it be asserted that she was responsible? It
could not be asserted, the office was not a responsi-
ble one. It was delegated by Parliament to her
Majesty for the gaardianship dtho;King. Govern-
ment provided expressly that die Cusths should not be
responsible, for they gave him a Council who were
to be accountable for whatever was done. The next
thing to be considered was the extent of the duties
attached to the situation. The Custos had a Groom
of the Stole with 2,0001. a-year for superintending the
whole Establishment, who was obliged to be resident
at Windsor. This Officer had a Deputy equally ca-
pable with himself of managing the whole concern,
and of course matters were conducted without any
trouble to the•Custos. What then had he to do ?
Nothing but to take care that the Physicians attended
to their important trust, and if his Majesty should
recover, to communicate the event to the public, to

see that it should not be concealed. He must deny
that the performance of these duties required such a
sum as 10,0001. He did not know how often the
Custos might have occasion to go to Windsor, or
how long it might be necessary for him to continue
there, but at all events the demand appeared exorbi-
tant. There were two amiable branches of the Royal
Family, whose filial attention could not be sufficiently
praised, that resided constantly there without any re-
muneration but the consciousness of performing a duty.
With respect to the eustos he was not aware of any
great labour that could fall upon him. He was not
to be constantly in the presence of his Majesty for
the purpose of watching, over him, or attending to
his wants. All he had to do was to receive the Re-
port of the Physicians, assisted by the Conned.—
This was the case before, and there was no duty since
added to the office. The Reports of Physicians were
made tp the Council, and these ended the whole bu-
siness. This might as well be done without as with
a eustos, but he would not deny, at the same time,
the propriety of there being such an officer. Was it
however seemly or decorous, that for the perform-
ance of the duties, a sam of £lO,OOO should be re-
quired? • Whether the office was measured by labour
or responsibfity, it was riot worth £10;000 a-year.—
Ministers did not attempt to demand this suns upon
'either ground. They could not dp it..-and, for that
reason they came forward under *a sneaking pretext
of enabling his Royal. Highness to defray some un-
defined expenses incidentil, as tfley pretended, to
the situation. The Council received no salary—the
GrOoms who were dismissed begged to be retained,
and offered to 'perform their duties without salary,
merely from affection for the Royal person to wham
Trustees al

we
ral F174.4nil Lincaug il:t1; waPmarlwianlrtftcwst'` an°
red• gel Iclarld`nougansi ------ u'
of" th"Wifte're-d-eZied: --
The T7us-teejs" a. 117:
no salary,
trains . principles...lf *lib situation-, she, would not objeceth the grainpro- Was then his Royal Highness, the favourite son of -
irdan:seislicon_cr slip. pawed at.preiren If hit wp:called upon. to expla ip' his Majesty,
a ivais. he,
. as curtsy, the only person
" HIWIAT43IIIIVVIIi • CO his censtsuerits, there was .no question wo not act without a salicry ?•--(hear;,. Ireerl,
nisters,,through which ha:would:be snore willing to do so than This 'gyrated a strange piece of business. Il shoafd
Diatice,.with an= dy ofitbe present grant and he,said thir in bireilied Us the bottom: Was it..a situation in. which •
r But Fds north , • Oahe ifew Paling:sent. ' his-Itoyal Highness' ought to be placed ? . Sending
Isituighti that • • Mk. TIERNEY said, that he wished to Say a few int* AMC 'kW; as it Were, a Bill for contingent
.• ••-
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•
•
•
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