Star.
London, England, 1816-03-26 00:00:00

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heett Mir which rere customary on the return of
Tre4:ce.. During the peace of 1802, there had been
no 4.7 mrui,ssitinek‘at Antigua ,or Nova Scotia.—
The it ridi.pwrtment
.of the Navy, he considered
a ne-led4dlard oppressed service, in comparison with
the Army. The Admirals had been deprived of the
prize money, which they bad formerly received, with.
out any compensation. He did not know how it was
possible, Pilot an Admiral should now on some ta-
ttoos, the West Indies for instance, keep up a table
like as Admiral, or even like a Warrant Officer.—
.An instance of the different treatment of the Army
and Navy, was to be seen at St. Helena. Admiral
Cockburn was sent there—with an allowance some-
what increased to be sure—bat Sir H. Lowe had
812,000 a-rear.—(Hear, hear).- And no one could
deny that Admiral Cockburo's sitisation was by far
the most disagreeable. Sir H. L' we was shut up in
the island only, hut Admiral Cockburn eas shut up
in a box—for the cabin of a man of war was nothing
better. When Officers of the Army abroad drew for
their pay, they were paid in solid coin the full amount,
in any quarter of the globe,. but the NA val Officer was
subject to lose on the rate of Exchange. He did not
wish that the country should at this time be put to any
new expense, but at least both the services should I e
put on the same footing, especially as they had borne
all their hardships during the war without a murmur.
The Naval officers were obliged, when they took their
half pay, to take an oath that they enjoyed no other
Ova or molts rent under Government. The officers
of the army took no such oath—(l sr they do firm the
Ministerial side of the House.) At any rate miiitary
officers to his knowledge had enjoyed their half pay,
and at the ante time received the full allowances of
Governors of fortresses. He had been once inclined
to think it hard that no half pay was allowed to
Master's-mates and Midshipmen, but upon mature
consideration he laind that subject attended with
many difficulties, for if half pay were allowed to there
officers, the Navy might be filled with persons who
entered with other motives than a love to the service,
and who would net be likely to form Nelsons and St.
Viacents. After enjoying their half pay for years on
shore, it might be found that they would not be able
or willing to serve the country. He saw no reason,
however, why wounded officers in the Navy should
not be put on the same footing as those in the Army,
with respect to pent-ii.ns.
Mr. CROKER hoped the House would give Mi-
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sisters an opportun:ty tl/4.extiain all the details in the
Committee, to which the Honourable Admiral and
the I lonourable Gentle twin who spoke before hin► 11:1.1
Objected. Ile pltdged himself to give every anvil.
Con to t:;em, and I•rove thtlr neces'ity. He wished
to set the ll,:use ►ight with respect to the spetch of
the a.:nourable Gentleman who opened thy debate,
who could not surely be serious, in calling on every
independent man in the Honse t send beck the Es.

tktnaies, rat'aer than submit to buclf a burthen as
£2.1,000 more in tie first year of peace than in the
last year of war. Why, he could wit be ignorant
that there never was a period .fter a war, from the
Treaty of Utrecht downwards, without there having
been always an increase in the ordii:ary Estimates of
the Navy. He would prove this fact to his convic-
tion. In ti e year 1711, the first year after the peace
of Ulrecltt, the excess of this branch of the service
was, when money was so much less depreciated than
at present. £29,000. This bore such a.proportion to
the whole, as to be three twentieth parts of the Esti-
mate. But as the Ordinary Estimates of the Navy
always increased in times of peace, by the expenses
of bringing home ships, laying them up in ordinary,
&c. &c. so they always decreased in time of war, by
the diminution of expense in all the civil branches.—
In 1739 they amounted to £129,000. In the fallow-
ing year, the first of war, they were diminished two.
twentieths. He should state the diminutions and
augmentations in this way, as being snore easily com-
prehended. In 1748, the last year of war, the ordi-
nary Estimates were X 208,000 ; in 1749, the first
year of peace, they were 0.485,000, being an increase
of g77,t4k, or 17.9.0ths of the whole amount. la
1755, the last year of peace, they were tr2SO,OOO ;-
13 1756, the first year of war, they had diminished to
41.19,000, or 4-20ths of the whole amount. In 1762,
the last year of war, they. were A 272,000 ; and In
1763, the first year cf peace, they rose suddenly to
X 380,600, being an increase of X 106,000 in that year,
ter B.2oths of the whole. In 1775 they were
eg444,000 : in 1776, the first year of war, they fell
again to X 1,26,000, being a dimination • of dt16,000.
In 1783, the last year of-war. they were £451,000 ;
in 1781. the first year of peace,they swelled t 04101,000,
being an increase of 11.20tha cf the whole. (Hear.).
In 1792, the last year of peace, they were a1i672.(X30;
in 1793. they sunk to £669,0:'0, being only a trifling
diatinution of smoo, but which was owing to pecu-
liar circunutances. In 1802, the last year of war, or
as it might be said of peace, the war being renewed
in the spring of 1803, though terminated only in
1802, the Ordinary Estimates were X 1,058,000 ; in
1803, they were £1,228,000, being an increase of
41170,000. The increase of the Estimates in the last
peace only appeared to be 3.2oths, whereas, in other
times of peace, they were 6,7, 9, 10, and even 11-
110ths. He then justified the proposed increase, which
could not be otherwise than moderate, it being now
only 4-20ths, being less than in any former Estimates
tif the Navy which could possibly be found.—(Bear,
her, hear.) This he considered au answer to what
the Honourable Gentleman called a iir;atafacie case,
es he said he would receive no answer but in figures,
which answer he had given him.— (Hear, /star, hear.)
The extraordinary increase of the half pay was a cir.
Mimi:me which he (Mr. Croker) had not noticed.
He defied the Honourable Gentleman to find in any
branch or department one single instance of a dimi.
elution the first year of peace; In the Committee he
pledged himself to prove, that so tar from there being
any extravagance, whatever the Honourable Gentle-
Stan thought so was absolutely public economy.
mr. BARING said the grave speech of one Lord
O the Admiralty (Sir G. Warrender), and the face-
tious speech of another (Sir J. Yorke), had done but
little to convince the •Houe of the propriety of the
enormous Estimates which had been laid before them.
The Secretary too (Mr. Croker), whom they had
abK, heard, had confined himself to points which had
pot been disputed, and had brOugbt forward spiny
hums without advancing his argoment. The sums
expended in repairs, which formed a great part of
tile Ordinary, were not objected to ; but the House
%a a right to ails ',by tbeCivil ,Establisharras were

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so greatly inereased ? List year had been- for di
mostpett one of real peace, and yet. altet such time
and opportunities for redaction, these-establishments
had been augmented. In the unease of the men
employed in Snips in Ordinary there was an enor-
mous increase. The Honourable Member animid-
,verted upon the increased charge for victualling the
men Is. 6d. per day being stated on these estimates,
although the all iwance for the last year was only
Is. 4d. For such a difference he thought it impost'.
We to account on any ground of justice or economy,
and it appeared the more extraordinary at a period
when the price rtf all articles of subsistence had so
considerably fallen. This difference then he deemed
4 strong prima facie case against these estimates....
But he had anther case equally strong to adduce.
The Masternf Quarantine at Milford Haven, had, it
seems, his salary, which was nu° per annum, re-
cently increased by the addition of fifty guineas, and
for what reason he could not all imagine ; but more
—this Master was allowed, by way, he supposed,
of perquisite, to victual the men under his care—and
for each, he too had an allowance of Is. 6d. a day,
although the allowance was only Is. 44. heretofore.
Now he (Mr. Baring) was assured by two most re-
spectable persons well acquainted with Milford Haven,
that from the reduced price of bread, meat and beer
in that district, any of the men alluded to might be
maintained for a shilling a day. So that this Superin-
tendent of quarantine had an opportunity of making
no less than £lOOO a year by his victualling contract.
But to whom was this prodigal grant made? The
House would suppose to some deserving Naval
Officer, who had bled for his country.; but on the
contrary, this favoured Master of Qaarantiae was no
other Wan the master of a collier at Mil!ord. This
then was a case which he (Mr. Baring) thought, on
the whole, presented a gross and flagrant instance tit
breach of duty and contempt for economy on the
part of the Admiralty, and with such an instance
before the House, how could any Gentleman pretend
to say that no prima pelt case offered, to shew the
propriety of reconsidering those Estimates ? But the
Gentlemen on the ether sids. themselves stated enough
to call for that reconsideration. The Honourable
Member concluded wish observing, that two frigates,
namely, the Sidney and the Eurotas, which were
built in the King's Yards in 1813, were now to be sold
for fire-wood, and this circumstance was sufficient to
prove that a very vicHis system prevailed in those
Yards, and that the Admiralty did not attend to it.
Mr. ROBINSON maintained, that the Honour.
able Gentleman ano spoke last W 35 quite as unfor-
tunate in his prima facie cases as his Right H in.
Friend beside him, whom the HonourableGentleman
s"emed willing to leave in the lurch.—(Hear, hear.)
For the tact was, that the Admiralty had nu connec-
tion with the case mentioned at Milford Haven—
(Rear, hear)—nor was that case included in the Es-
timates upon the table. Blame might attach to the
departnient tinder which this Master of Quarantine
acted, but the Admiralty had nothing to do with
him—Wear, hear.)—So much as to one of the Ho-
nourable Gentlemen's prima facie cases ; and now, as
to the other, it turned out most unluckily for the
Honourable Gentleman's information, that the Sidney
and the Eurotas were not built in the King's, but iu
the Merchants' Yards.—(Hear, Hear.)
Mr. BARING contended, that the advance in the
rate of victualling men, upon which he had animad-
verted, And which furnished a strong Aria's facie case
against the Admiralty, was to be found in the Esti-
mates upon the table. Then, as to the Sidney and
the Eurotas, it might be, that he was misinformed
as to the place in which these frigates were built,
that whether constructed in the Merchants' or the
King's Yards, it Was evident that the Admiralty had
neglected its duty, for it was its province to tat care
that these ships should be properly constructed, and
of the best materials. So that the inaccuracy of his
information, was no acquittal of the Admiralty from
the charge which the undeniable condition of these
frigates involved.
Mr. C. WYNNE thought, that as it appeared
from the statement of the. Gentlemen opposite that a
material reduction of the expense in the naval depart-
ment was to be expected within the year, the Esti.
mates before the House should not he voted for more
than six months, that is, until June next. Thus the
House, instead of trusting to pl-onsises of economy,
would retain the means of insuring its observance,
which would be a mach better mode of doing its
duty towards the country, than by voting from con-
fideaire in any Ministers a larger sum of money than
i was actually necessary, and the Gentlemen opposite
themselves stated, that the sum mentioned in the
Estimates was not at all likely to be required- for the
expenditure of the year.
Mr. CROIU..It and Mr. WYNNE mutually ex-
plained as to the amount of the sums voted for the
Ordinary of the Navy, in the years 11102 and S.
. Mr. TIERNEY justified his former statements,
which be contended were in no degree shaken by the
speech of the Secretary of the Admiralty. ler his
prima facie case still remained unanswered, namely,
that the sum of £259,000, required by the Estimates
for the expenditure of the Ordinary et the Navy was
not fairly accounted for, and that it was unweran.
table to advance the salaries of the civil Olken of
the Navy, of the Lords of the Admiralty, for in-
stance, OE4 the conclusion of peace, whoa the duties
of these officers must be considerably reduced I that
it was not just to give to those officers a larger salary
in peace, when we bad but a few ships at seas tbau
they had when our ships covered the ocean. Ohre
there was a erg of " Sitoie, elielel")—but Mr. Fax.
MANTLE moving an adjournment on the Motion, Mr.
TIMMY proceeded in his remarks t—He challenged
the Honourable Secretary to an 'lamination of the
several items of the EMNNEE. and by voting for
the adjournment the Honourable Secretary would,
as well as himself, have a ' better opportunity of
collecting more complete information. Veer. hear.)
But if it were fact, as the Honourable Secretary as.
sumed, that the labour of the officer: connected with
the Admiralty was greater in peace than in war, bow
came it that those salaries should have been hereto-
fore so much reduced in peace ? How came it' for
instance, that the salfry of the Secretary of theAd-
aniralty himself should have been always reduced
one fourth, at it MOM still continue, thanks to the
decision of that House ? But looking to all the offi-
cial departments connected with the Admiralty, be
would ask in which of them could any augmentation
of labour be expected during peace ? ,nor instance,
how could tihe Navy Pay Office, after ye had been