Star.
London, England, 1804-04-13 00:00:00

PAYMFNT AT Pat OF IRISH OFFICERS.

Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON risk to make
his promiled motion, which had fo long flood over,
relative to the payment of falaries at par to certain
Officers under the trill; Government, refiding in this
country. He had bellowed upon the fubjea, he
could allure the Houfe, all the attention which he
was capable of giving to it, and he was the more in-
duced to do fo,becaufe it was one which involved
no common degree of intereft, and which called for
the moil ferious inquiry on the part of the Legifla-
ture. He had no difficulty in Rating as an opinion,
which could not be refuted, that the Firft Lord of
the bias Treafury poffeffed no right to order the
payment of thele falaries at par ; yet it appeared
from the papers on the table of the Houfe, that the
order authorizing the payments had been figned by
the Firft Lord of the Irish Treafury. That aft, he
contended, was not a fufficient warrant for the pay-
menu, and he trolled, that when the Houfe came to
confider the principle and its application, they would
not hefitate to agree with him in the fentiment
which he had exprefTel What was not a little ex-
traordinary was, the application of the praface of
the meafure which he had occafion to condemn, to
thole who ccttainly could not be in want of an in.
dulgence of the kind, and the denial of it to thnfe
who were avowedly in want of it. He alluded to
the fituation of half pay Officers on the Irish Etta-
blifhent, relident in this country, who fuffercd a
conliderable lofs in confequence of the tate of
Exchange, thole in high offices were paid
their falarics at par. He next read a lid nl the
officers under the Irifh Government, whom lie con.
ceived not entitled to the payment of their Calories
at par, throngh authorities by the order of the l'irfl
Lord of the Trealury. Wi:h retina to the I.nrd
Chancellor of Ireland. vho Rood in a very diliin•
guithed place on die lift, he would afh. nn wh.tt
ground he v. as t ottipe;icti to ren.!C 11C1,: He alfu
would be jnilitied it, a!ki•ic. the f.i:re qucflion
refpc'f to the ;iced-City ot the I:ight 'don. Ci:atlctnan
nprllte to hint (the Chancell'T LI the li:::ch.,t;iter rf
Ireland) refiding in this coutt•ry ? The erandrl for
the Revenue, and the d:p.:ty of the putt u:
Dublin, with feveral othet otlicers, were in a fimilar
fituation, without the plea of neceflity for their re
fielence in England, and confecriently without any
juit claim t 3 the payment of titcir fal.tt ies at par.—
Having entered into home further detail: wit!, re:pt.!:
to the :lemurs, and the i.et lons to wlii•to the r•
rut Innis st etc paid, he expatiated rn the ev:•Lrre
inirrptiety I mAing (itch pa;:m• nt- aI anc tirtit ,
but more particularly at a morn.:::.t v..lien I; ci ofd st.t,
labouting under the prelim e of. complicated
As to its circulating medium, an,l *ben its elm-. icy
was c•Nmpietely vitiated. The cxemptiott‘, 1 c c,,n•
tend. J, Were wrong on tout diltinn ground, I
there was nnincy in the Exchequer shin IL: or.
' for the paym-ntv `tl .1C

%%,:c if:

at Cle !rm.' ".ti lit ict 0), in,l'Ar
thcy wc7 c 1 t per, q!). ihntdd vir futd ti

It

M s. Cte V ..;.!
li.s

to C.I. lach
iuded w..:1 Ir.ading ill* I

uu {.IIC

Li
LEJ
.111

Cu
Ira
fol
ad

ye.
cal

. {

lON
tit

~a
-~.
~~

If
Tax
flu
Pe

the
Te

tit)
lixi
cot

/ICH w

12.11
WC
.ph

[On
01, thr
t,•,1

irn ', 2n.! errTL

bc Lai.xi:r.u,

on, between the advancement. of the fataries of the
bilh civil officers alluded to and the payment of thole
Ldaries at par, or the remuneration of them fur corn-
iog to thiscouotry, as tke Noble Lord had termed
it. The Noble Lord mull admit that old. of Brains
currency was equal to toot. of frith currency, and yet-
lc argnid that the officer who received toot. of the
former, adieud of tool. of the latter, obtained no
addition to his income. Really the dillinaion was
lo fingular, that he could not without furprife boor
the Noble Lord ferioufly maintain it. But the Noble
Lord had Rated that this payment at par was only a
teleafe from tax; but wasnorfuch a releafew he would
ark, as effeansl a way ofpuonenting an officer's fa-
)cry as any other that could be.conceived ?. If Parlia-
ment were to relieve. any defcriptiop of ofgceri from
the operation of any particular tar in the country,
bow would it be ondernood but as an inereare of die
tdaries of fuch of ? The exemption:lmm any
iii..oic burthen could imply nothing different, becaufe
ohvioully it mull have the eteft of advancing a man't.
revenue. If, faid the Skisle Lord, lrifh officers were
called here by their fuperiors to eieente their public
duty, it would be thrjudi that theyitould Atter any
Usßut who were the officers to whole (aperient
;lluded ? Who was the. foperipe that was to order
the attendance of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the
either fide (Mr. CorrY)f- Ifii &fey at a Member of i
Parlianient Could alone fonder his prefetwe in this 1
"pantry necegary. With refpea to the late Lord
Chancsllor, what necatty of a public nature called
1110 Ever to thii, country at the time he received bit
16Hrfif par ?. the Nolle'Lord coniefted thit he did
mot knertrerf any, and indettit wits tbareely'pnelble.
-to ;itemise any rearm? that Monte bring him here.
Which upon even the grounds laid down by the Noble
• Lord hinsfelf, could: entitle that officer to claim the
allowance to which the refolotions before the Houfe
Weeded. If the NiSisle Lord hid in his mind any
-team for the stridence of that 6fficer in N. eoentryi
ayly not•ftate it ? 'What could be* an Irilh Judge
to ride here ? The bufinefs of Anil a man, piste jade,
I.i tp freland, This remark applied alto to the court-
*l-fbr the Constailßonerisof the revenue, and to other
officers mentioned in the account on the table. The
duty of thofeperfons to attend their plates in Portia.
„went could never be pleaded as a radon for grantinti
them the extraordiiary allowance which provoked
. this debate. He could never patiently hear it even
litruktated, that, while the Country Gentlemen of Ire-
land were, by .their attendance On their Parliamentary;
duties, cubic° to all the difadirantagfes °Cumquat
exchaage, &e. the officers of Government. the :rer-1
wants of the Crown, as they arestermed, thould be!
foideninified; fhould have a remuneration for coming
TO England—that the one fhould have Temethinphe?!
Weft bnareltitt to flay away, While the'other thWed!
,lave on encouragement to attend: If Mehl; fyllem4
or language approting it, were to be countenanced',
IMat only the sluice of the Cnnitltntion aas gone, bat ,
All decorum or regard for as forma Ara limit mutt
be exacta. If the late Lord Chancellor had come!
here, according to. onion from his fropericoothae!
fuperiorrnun be his M4etty. and. what nacetfity he
could have for li keeper of the Itids feats it was. not
eafy to di.inv , however:it he bad any. it mutt bd a
(pecial cafe, and it ought to be Rated. If the Husk
were to decide upon the affords* of the Noble Lord.
'that the bilk Chancellor, had nn doubt fume good
realms fur his refidence here, that_ kind of argument
•
Would go the leugtly of junitymg any appropriation
of the public money oflreland to the fame way to
any favourite of the Lords of the hint Treafury,
who might refide in this country, and this upon the
fappofition and copie:ture that he hada good reafon
of opublic nature andfor.C4public ince reit for corning.
If it were propored that soy. ocers of an inferior
Tank. who {could clue to this country from Ireland.
flotilla be recompenfed for extra trouble and expenee.
?e wound readily accede to the propolitios. but not
an the way which had . been purfued, itt the inliance
then under confideration, by the Lords of the frith
Treafury. It had been Rated by the Noble Lord,
pat the Lords of the Treafury in this country were
in the habit of exercifing a limilar diferetion with
regard to our military officers (erring on foreign Ill-
tioas ; but he hoped not without the ei•nfent at Par-
liament, without fubmitting fuch allowance to the
1 confideration of that Hoare in the Army Extraordi-
aaries. If not, they too had forgotten that old
word, refponfibility. As to die aftertion, that half
pay officers on the I rifh Eflablifhment were not ern-
.ployed in any public department in this country, he
knew the contrary to be the fan, in ferinal inflames,
as infpeßing officers, &c. and yet they had no remorse-1
ration fuch as the civil officers received. It was faid,
they had no clam to inch remuneration; but had they'
not the fame precenfion to it as the late Lard Chancey
for of Ireland? He was allowed four ihnufand poitods
a year,as an indemnity for the lofs of the place of the
breaker of the bill' Houle of Lords, which, in conic-
evence of the Union, he had no longer to attend. It
appeared that while refident it this country he waspaid
at par his half pay refulting from this office. Why
not then, upon the fame ptine:ple, make the fame
tt..........c iv uilisas half pay atfiearc I [ 41ai:A ] !I
the principle were fu extended it would be much
more honourable to the frith Government, though
he would not admit that it would be feemly or con
Ilitntional to grant any fuch allowance at all but by
the previous confetti of Parliament. If any recoune•
ration were deemed necelfary to the Civil Officers of
the trill Government employed in confequence of
t'.: inadequacy of their falarics, the Noble Lord what
the enaament of the Union hid manifelled fuch a
c .iiiplete knowledge of proicias of indemnities, arJ
h.. 4 :hewn no very niggardly difrifition in dittribu-
t:isg them, fhould fubmst a propolstiisn to that Haute
%oh relpea to their cafe ; and there would nn doubt
he found the fulled tcadincli to extend their filaries
as fir as any reafonahlc man could desire. The cafe
of the repeal of the Abfenrces Tax, quoted by the
Ruble Lord, did not appr sr to him to he at all ono.
tionus to the it:trilled, it hcforc the Houk, becaufe.
In the one talc, a tan was removed which was levied
upon a nun lir living in England, while in t:.e other
• donut is given to a :r.ars coming to live in I.'lP:And,
and this &dm/ iledt.;ed nom the revenue of lieland.
nil was a very ni..tcrial clii;:.re:..ce. The frith O.
Frets who remain,d in Ir-i sod had wiosl caiife to
complain of the is ••s c it's: of ild-.., .chore th..rn, which
Atl, 1,.. , rc.:s r' :ains . e.'... s c..'7.-.• to It::.:. in It:;.

n :•:pt sccra,

to indoce tiie 1-nr,l, of the T,e,f..l:y t.. conceAl
it but t!:: Subic Lad :C:mc.,lt4 t::—: Lvk

the Lords of the Treafury were dueled to difcharge
the demands of alt claimants nn Treafury befog
they attempted to drzw their own Calories, and yet
from the papers an the table it appeared that the
Lords of the Treafury paid thensfelves fire--even
before. they fuffired the money to go to the Irith
Treafury. This eircumaance afforded a reafon why
the praCtice to which the refolutioni before the
Houle referred lloodd be concealed, at lean that it
&mild not be eapafed if poffible. Under.all the cit..
cumltances of this queftion, the Honourable Mem-
ber laid, that inquiry fhould be made as to the jot-
• tiee orthectiim of every perfon who had profited
by this praitice, and. this without a complete aban.
doormat' of damp ettrold not, in hi: opinion, be over-
looked. Ha (humid therefore affent to the motion of
his Noble Encore, and recommend cathode interthed
to apply to alit Houk for any reeonspence for their
' (crakes they thought themfelves entitled to, or any
indeintsity for is es they might &Raiff.
,The 'QH.*NCELLOIC of the gXCHEftti)!i R
. entered into satiated of the-rate of Exchange, and
Maintaineflt that upon Ilse principles of the Goa-
denten .oppoffie, the Offiters conneaed with Ire-
land Muff fitter u confiderable lots ; for inffead of
receioing oat for the fool* they would only receive
Upr-tt this principle HA in this country, In regard
to the =catty of the attendance of thbfe Gentlemen
here, bis Honourable Friend, he had no doubt, oho
had already explained the bufinefs, would be able tt
(here' very g,d grounds. The pertain who had been
abided tolled -May drawn certain furni for their fob.
fillence in this country, in proportion to their period
of livingliera. Some of them,
.indeed. had :not re-
ceived To much, and the officers of an inferior de-
fcription, he thought, might at an events be allowed
their travelling expences. •
Mr. JOHN LA COUOHE (upporeed the Motion
of the Noble Lord. He thought that the fcrvants
of Government ought no to enjoy an advantage of
this kind over other fubjeas. rn a time, when fi om
a variety of citentnflaneet a depreciation had taken
place, and calamity to a' certain-extent, thofe who
in the opinion of many, hard contributed to that ca-
lamitt, fbould not, be alone exempted from its ope-
ration. • .
. Mr. WINDEf AM could not underflind the force.
of the IVlttielltS Made ore ofron the oppnfite fide
-of the Kook. He harfalways undertlood, that to
Market a ,afar,, wat the fame thing as to add a
}deft. = It Theme; luiwevert to be a matter of new and
difficult calodation, tnd all olifrules of arithmetic.
' on .thole tremstion matters were to be had afide. But,
however, he could not be brought to believe, that
to take off et preffehe *as not to brae& the perfon
from %Alba it was. removed. The Kind* at re-;
animaratiosa eftwoltiffes Oldie fluintiotts, was one
which Illogid be seceireeloand adteduprin with great
care and cireudifpation. In :many eafes,perfons
took their fitoations under the• anticipation of thefe
circumllanres it tonld not thermal:we be every cafe
of this nature that called for rennuteration. • It was
not to be /appoint,. even if the.Chancellnr were to
come over here, by fpcciol command, that he (hould'
appear in Ansa framterir to rlPLandahis remuneration:
whereas it did not appear that•be.had any fuch rot-.
fon. , A clafs of perfons. %vitae duty was of firth a
,nature as to render their refidence, on either fide, in
`a cotton; degree,, optional, Would be fitter objefis
for loch componfation ; but it was not Co with the '
Treafury, and mony other offices ; they were quite
of a dittesent nature. The gentlemen employed,'
there, could not carry their buficiefs about with them..l
They could not tranfaft their own bufinefs in another'
place. They were like the man in the Rory, who
could not blow his own fire in another man's honfe. '
He wanted a pair of bellows, and went to borrow
one of his friend, who wanted them himfelf, but told
him-he might come to his room, and ufe them :
" Aye, but" Pays he, a I can't blow my own fire
at-your book."
The MASTER of the ROLLS obferved, that the
Noble Lord had laid down a pmpofition in his mo.
tion, which was of a general nature : but that all
the other Gentlemen who bad followed on that tide
had departed from the general principle he had
Hated, and made particular dininetions. He should
not enter i ito the neteffity arifing from any parti-
cular initance. He could fee nothing in the removal
of any Gentleman from Ireland to England on the
bufinefs of his office, that ought to operate to the
diminution of his &Ivy. When he was called here
he had his duties to difcharge, and he ought to have
the full amount of his (glary, the fame as if he had
remained in Ireland. Upon the principle attempted
to be ethablifhed, perfons concerned in Eall India
affairs might be fent to Calcutta to receive their fa-
' laries. So that if a perfon were ordered to go to
York, and could not get his friary from London,
but at a great erpence attending the transfer, he was
to he a fufferer ! Bin what was exchange but the
expence attending the transfer of money ; and why
Arnold the civil officer Inflain that expence, if he
did not voluntarily Ibift his refidcnce Thr Learned
Member then proceeded to (hew that the cafe of half
pay did not apply in the ;indent inaance. Aug.
mentatinn of Glary, he admitted, would be unjulti-
fiolile, but that w s vattly different from the mere
payment of the fame identical Calory, only on a
different (pot.
Dr. LAWRENCE argned that fuels payments
were made without any conititutional authority. and
therefore, independently of their equity, he found
himfelt called on co oppofe the general principle.—
The Learned Gentleman contended particirlatly that
the proportion Hated by the Right Hon. Gentleman
oppnfite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was by
no means obfcrved, it any credit might he given to
the paper, on the table. The Learned Melo/ here
turned up an article where Mr. Wickham had re-
ceived an order to draw his Wary in this country to
any amount, not eft ceding the whole for the year,
which was four thotrand five hundred pounds.—
From loch an order he argozd any perfon here notch'
receive tl e Wary, and trattfmit it to Ireland at fo
much addiiinnai ;•to.it. He laid confiderable firers
on the periods ne.:allory for their refidence in this;
country, and that their payments might be made
and really were made, as appeared from the papers
befiire them, wit:itatt reoard to the proportion or Ile-
.,
cellity of fuch p rods.
'floe CHANC:ILLOR of the
Elia, that had tne Lotrecd Gentleman. io adverting
to what he 1.4, caarniocJ t. cafe of Mr. Nv01..-diarn.
lie w•aildhumid t: ,e very r-.m, Crewed
Wry slid au: warms.: ci..raluicato la caz: I ;

would Lave round that the credit was to brevet! Itt
the rale of 43601. and at pages he would have ken
that his predeceffor drew unly the fmalier loan of
acusd. Rated as paid in +BO3, but that included the
total of two years ; not, however, brought forward
till 1803. He did not believe that Mr. Wickham
was a perfon likely to depart, in that refried, fcom
his predeceffor's example.
Dr. LAURENCE and the CHANCELLOR of
the EXCHE(VER explained. .
Lord HENRY PETTY laid, that the general
principle of remuneration was not now before the
Houle. Who were the proper judges of the equity
of the compenfation ? Parliament. Who had made
themfelves the judges of it ? The objeas of it. He
thought that the Chancellor could not be the proper
perfon to be remunerated for coming over to Eng-
land ; and if fo, the Treafury had abided their
power, and the Houk ought to take up the dike-
fion of the fubjei ferioufly.
Mr. FRANCIS laid that, among many weighty
arguments which determined hint to sow for the
original motion, there were two, which he withed
particularly to Rate and infift on, becaufe they were
of a plain and obvious quality, and not liable to be
perplexed and confounded by technical (kill or fo-
phidical dillinaions. To tittle, Sir, I expect to hear
a plain and rational anfwer, which hitherto has not
been attempted. In the fiat place, Sir, I hold it to
be a principle infeparable from the ufet of all Go-
vernment, and from the duties of this Government
more than any other, that the perfonal intereß of
every individual trulled with power Ihould in all
cafes be one and the fame with the interea of the
community. If a general calamity fixodld vial, or
a general liurthen is to be endured, to the remedy or
relief of which the labour, the industry and the (kill
of perfons in high office ought, to be unremittingly
applied, it is not wife, it is not fate to exempt fueh
perfons from their fhare,in the general pre Pure or
fuffering tljat falls upon all the red. You take away
a principal motive oriiinsului to fuch perfons to exert
themfelves in the public fervicc when you tell them
that, whether they neglea their duty or not, they
are lure to be borne harrtslefs in the receipt of their
own income. Leal of all, is it prudent or fide so
Puffer fuch parties. to form thytteafore and to diftri-
bore the amount of their own relief ? But, even if
the Contrary were ttue, if it 'could he maintained
that parlous in high and lucrative tailless ought to be
fp:eially and exclnfively exempted from any &are
in a public fuffering, 'Rill the courfe which has been
taken ought not to be endured. It is, aliened that
the payments in quetlion have not been fetid—have
not been clandelline. My anfwer it, that they have
been made not only without the authority, DM with-
out the knowledge of Parliament. for elm never
heard of the fad, until it was introduced by the No-
ble Lord on this fide. If the thing be proper, it
ought to be done by a vote of this Hook or in tome
other regular Parlramentary way. Whenever the
general principle of reirnburfing individuals for loffes
no exchange of falaries comes to be otinfidareds you
will have other cafes infinitely more prang to pro.
vide for. I (hall Rate only one; which I think could
hardly be refined, and which has freqoently occurred:
I mean that of an Englith regiment dilbanded 4n
Ireland, and of which the officers, all Englifli, are
compelled by their fituation, c.ircomflances, and con.
nations, to refide in England on their lri(h half pay.
Out of that pittance they Joie ten per cent. on the
remittance from Ireland. Would you refufe to in-
demnify fuch perfons, while the principal Officers
of Government are permitted to reimburfe them.
felyes out of the public pork. Now, Sir, I afk for
information on a point of parliamentary conftrudion,
in which I think the honour, becaufe I am lure the
duty of this Hoare, is effintillly concerned. Sup-
pofing the motion of the Noble Lord fhould be let
elide, with fuch fs6ts brought into the view of the
Houle, and fo immediately conneded with our firtl
duty as guardians of the public purfe, and that this
Amid be done by an expedient fo difgraceful, and
I believe hi Inch a cafe fo unprecedented, in the pro-
ceedings of Parliament, as that of moving the Or-
der of the Day, in what Pate wilt this Winds be
left? Will it not be concluded that the Houle re-
nounces its duty, and abdicates its jurifdidion over
a money queftion ? Will it, or will it not be takeo
by the parties who have hitherto aged in their own
behalf, by their own authority, for an acknowledg-
ment of the power they have In Olmsted ? What is
to check or to limit them in the future curdle of
that difcretion, when Parliament, with the cafe be-
fore them, refutes to inquire into the pall, or even to
lay down any rule for the future? Certainly the Gen-
tlemen who have taken good cafe of themfelves,
may aft with more referee, and ler, indulgent to
the claims of others full as gond as their own. Or
they may chute and tiled the objefts of their favour.
I ark, is it fit that loch a quettion Ihould be left un-
decided ? In fart, I fear it will amount to a decifinn
in favour of the abufe, and furnifh a pretence for
other pradices of the fame nature. When a Houle
of Commons refutes to inquire into an uaauthnriled
application of public money, and when the I aft is
not denied, it gives an approbation to the thing
done, and makes it a precedent fur greater abufes.
Mr. HENRY THORNTON thought the zeal of
the Gentlemen oppufite carried them rather too far.
The fad appeared to be, that Gentlemen had not
been paid any more than their fabrics amounted to.
Had Government paid them in hard money, which
they had a right to dn, they would not have given
them more. He law no offence againft equity in the
wan faCtion.

Mr. BARHAM thought the tranfaaion a dikre-
dit to Government, far greater than any advantage
to he gained by it.
Mr. FOS FER had often obeerved in the cootie if'
his parliamentary life, that ss lien Gentlemen had no
good grounds to refit upon, they ran to glntral
principles, which teemed to be the cal: to.nignt with
the Honourable Member appolite. But it was fo
thinna.il, to 'recur to general prirtiples, he fhould beg
to mention one, namely, that no money 16x11 be
ed a atria coming to Parliament for it. It had b:en
proved, that this money had not hero I-gaily
The papers (Reared, that one Commiili user had or•
tiered the illue, and that it had been paid accord!ng-
ly. Every him fobtraned from the public puree ss•s
in taelto much espence incurred. Thc N.,bl; L rd

had laid, th, 111;41 treallit y v.as in I -9,10 n ; but dil
ane body that had rca.l ti: Xl4 of NfliAlre"l to
m +in ignorant that t U".l, necc(Ti!y to ha•,- tt
I.,ti manual. 01 an As of ratliAm2.4l

,~ au

• •
diorite en Me ? Was the Or
_firtetelo kV
t hia tratfationl The Noble Lard beefedartitt,
it
Aa of Parliaarent wee an opesoff traofaikat, that
is to fay, drat to as lwally was an opeenfetmaradlias,
whereas, to add it legally, made &d'art att. and fo the
Noble Lord cbofe to run poll hale to the Totafory
in London. All the revenues. of Ireland were, ince
the Union. applicable, in the &It inflame, to the
payment of the National Debt ; and fecoodly,iothis
general porpofin of that cavalry. If Minittere could
thus pay officers, it would never appear how Ireland
was tubjefted to the expenees ; whereas. if the thing
. wasi done legally, fifteen feveateentbs of the money
would be paid by England. He called upon Minillers
to treat rbi's goer nn like men, in a manly manner
toconfefs they had done art illegal att. Let than
go into a Committee, but not blink the quettion.. If
orherwife, let them now have their majority if they.
could, but let them depend upon it, that this quettion
would come before them in fo many (baps., the
they mull meet it at Lift.
Lord CASLEREAGH role to explain, and was
proceeding to reply to force obfervations of the lath
fpeaker, when he was called to order by
Lord FOLKSTONE, who infirted that die *Mr
Lord was not fpeaking to order. bet is reply.
Mr. FOSTER 01:skived, that the Coonfel of the
Gammiffioners of the Revenue hacl.a computation of
750 pounds at the 'Union for his Glary of modal
year, and that he found he hadreceired sisol. within
a period of direr- years.
' Mr. ORMSBY, at confiderable length, entered
into an explanatioa of the fubjel alluded to by Mr.
Fofier. He (hewed, from a variety of inflances, that
the Treafury had a power to ifue orders over money .
of the Crown, before it came intorthe Extheer,
particularly in Ireland, in the cafes of the marchinu
guineas to the Militia, and the acquittances to the
army. Colleaors were often forted to pay Raney
before it could come into the Exchequer. It had
been obferved by an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pox that
'he did not fee the abfolote neceffity of die Irtlbehan-
cellor of the Exchequer coming to Loader's. What
fell from that Gentleman, certainty deferred great
.attention; but he was much furprifed to bear thee
affertion, to refute which he thought it area coastal&
to reltate it. He made a variety of other obfeivatioas
in fupport of Lord Caltiereagh's motion for the Order
4 the say.
Sir LAURENCE PARSONS thought there tees
nothing, in his mind, unfair nor inequitable in the
principle of paying to the bid' Civil Officer her, the
fame tuna that be would have a right to claim in
Ireland : and with repea to the contrail esercifed
by the Irifh Trcafury board over money ie trayars
from their Co)leaors, qr in loans borrowed for the
public fervice of Ireland in this country, be ander-
good it was conftantly the prat:lice, nutlet the kin
Chancellor of the Exchequer for that country, and
therefore it was to he prelumed a legal right exified.
Mr. T. GRENVILLE (poke at Tome length in
approbation to the arguments in favour of the origi-
nal areftion t and efpecially what had fallen from a
young Nobleman on the fame bench with him (Lord
Henry Petty). of %chafe talents the Houle bad al-
ready Witreffed tome brilliant fpecimena. and whore
arguments upon the queftion of this night were to
clear, firong, and irrefragable, that he would not
run the rifle of weakening them, even by endeavour-
ing to repeat them. Having silo applied hinifelf
&only iu teply to what had fallen from the Mailer
of the Rolls, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Thornton, and
the Chancelior of the Exchequer, be came finally to
the fhort fpeech of the Hon. Member who had jog.
fat down (Sir i.aurence Farina), who, he Paid, bad
brought the quettion to a point ; for he had alerted,
that the Officers of the bah Govemtnent had a legal
right to jut the payments alluded tn, in the manner
they had done. The very contrary was Ranted by
thole who had fpoken in favour of the refohniaa of
the Noble Lord. The point, therefore, was fairly
at iffue, and he trolled the Houle would come to a
manly and fair divifirso upon the original motion,
and not blink the queflion by deciding it on the mo.
tion for the Order of the Day.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL replied at tome
length to the rillrefent arguments which had beenurged
in fupport of the Refolutioos. Hs complained that
it was unfair for one Gentleman to fay that there
was fallacy in an argument, and another Gentleman
to fay that no argument had been advanced. No one
petfon had pretended to fay that there was a great
hum of money funk, tquandered, or applied to impro-
per ufes, and that therefore it was evident that his
Majefly's tenants had aged from a corrupt and dirty
motive. He had no doubt, that it the principle
was admitted, and that it was Rated that one or two
pet tons had, by mitiake, been included in the pay-
ment who were not entitled to it—he had no doubt
that then the Noble Lord oppntite to him, who had
fpoken with to much ability won:d be fatisfied as to
the propriety of the conduit of Miniiters. The kith
nation had funds in this country in confequence wf
the intimacy which fabtitied between the two iflands;
and would any nre fay that, when they had a public
officer en bufinef, here, the money fhouid not be paid
her: to that Officer, but be fent back to the Treafury
of behind, tp do that mighty piece of inflict of
putting money in the public purfe at the espence of
the individual ? As no cafe of inquiry appeared to
him to be made out, h.: votrfor the Order
of the Day, as :!;.: mr.ft Pat ii.meutary and realms-
ble courfe of pr.-cce.•
Sir J. NEW FOR I' declared that his main objec-
tion was to the money not being left at the siitisofal of
Patliamsr.t. No matter wh. • the turn was, the
principle ar.:ts the Lime to Pailiament, and Tie was
turprifed to Ire.!t a Itiria Hon. and Learned Gertle.
man oppofite to him (ale A:tot:ay G.:nerAl) fay,
that the mud Parliamentary way of ailing was. for
the Houfe to proceed to the Order of the Day.
Lard A. HAMILTON laid, the expreffions of
tome Hon. ?stem' era had Leen rtj:ded to. But the
Houle woilid re,,.11,1t, that he h••I slilrted that the
act in mei( %.1, 1.1 : iZgal; na pert.n 1)4.1 centrc.ver.
ted that. An oh,, ioan had lKen made, that a for
•ant lhould he p iii, trareililig espencts. hut them
wAs no atp,int n: that. as no peri;,n rave in Each
An estimate as travelling espciice, t,, PAiliament, and
it that %is, to he ur zed apa....1 any ,:rr, no une could
l.sy but that tra, vro., • Lad f,.en paid be-
nd:!,7 money to
the amount,
it indeed

Ns t.)

7, iti:r