Star.
London, England, 1810-03-20 00:00:00

Ell•••••••
Al 20aa yen,
upwarls

ject, he said, was to remedy as far as he could the' ..ft but they havo since been increased to • had been made respecting the Droits of Admiralty
errors in these Acts, and to make such alterations as ... of £2OOO, and it was with a view to bring declared that out of those Droits, amounting to eight
he thought would be of advantage to the country.— those tensions under the consideration and inspection millions, two-thirds had een granted to the captors
His first object was to diminish the number of Non. of Parlament that he now brought forward his reso- without regard of persons.
commissioned officers to one fourth, and to reduce lutions He thought the country at large had a right i Mr. WILSON defended the propriety of the pen.
; the number of days for training the men from 28 to expect from the House that something should be sions granted to superanuated Masters of Chancery.
days to 22, by which there would be a saving to the done in consequence of the Third Report, to which Sir J. NEWPORT preferred his Hon. Friend's
I
country of about £346,000. This number of non- he hal alluded; two years had, however, now Resolution to. that of the Right Hots:savable Gentle-
commissioned officers would be ample and sufficient, elapsed, and no notice whatever had been taken of man, because the former referred more particularly- 1
and serjeants may be got to drill the men at Is. a-day it. He alluded to the office of Register of the High Ito the immediate necessity for ceconomy. As to
instead of Is. 6d. which was the sum they received Court of Admiralty, in which the Right Honourable what had been just stated by the Learned Gentle- i
at present. Another object of his Bill was to permit I the Chancellor of . the Exchequer had a reversionary i man opposite, relative to the Droits of Admiralty,
Courts Martial to sit after the training, to try those t interest ; the emoluments of that office amounted to he wished to ask, whether, of those vessels belonging
I
who were guilty of offences during the time they £13,000 a year; £BOOO a year of whicli arose from to the Danes, &c. so unwarrantably seized when in
were called out, and reduce the number of days for the money of the suitors in that Court. He would, the regular course of trade in• our rivers, two-thirds. , •
calling out the volunteers from 24 days to 18, and to therefore, wish to bring in a hill to abolish that part had been given to the captors i
make it compulsory in future on all constables to immediately. The offices of t 1:: Tellers and Auditor Sir. J. NICHOL replied, that the vessels trading
make a return of the deficiencies in each parish in the of the Exchequer had been abolished by a majority with licences had been released. The others were of '
Autumn. He concluded by moving for leave to of five only. He was extremely desirous the House little value.
bring in his Bill. should proceed, and come to a determination on the i The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
Mr. GILES and Mr. WHITBREAD expressed subject this very night, and he would thereicre ab- contended that his proposition was of a broader na-
a wish that the Local Militia Acts should be consoli- stain from detaining them longer by any further re- i ture than that of the Honourable Gentleman. His -
dated, and that more attention should be paid to the marks, conscious that he had already trespassed con. ' proposition declared, that it was the duty of the
qualification of the officers. siderably on their patience. He should be willing to . House at all times to attend to public economy,
Mr. GILES rose merely to recommend it as a pre- adopt the two first resolutions of the Chancellor of . while that of the Honourable Gentleman was con-
ferable
measure to consolidate all the Acts into one. the Exchequer in preference to his own. The first fined to the statement that in the present arduous T .
He concluded by adverting to several errors in the . resolution was then read from the Chair, namely, Isituation of the country, it was their duty to attend • •
laws, as they now exist. 1 That it is the opinion of this Committee that attention to eco- to the public economy. With respect to the produce
Mr. ADDINGTON rose to support the sugges- :limy is particularly necessary in every branch and department of of the detained Danii.l vessels, not one farthing had
tion of the Honourable Member ; and, after au ob. the Public Expenditure. been applied in any other way than to the public ser-
servation from Mr. WHITBREAD, relative to the i vice and to the captors. With apart of that produce
facility by which the qualifications of Local Militia Mr. ROSE observed, that what he had stated with
the property taken at Copenhagen had been pm- (
respect to the savings made in the last '2O or 25 years,
officei sage evaded, chased from the captors.
was little more than an enlargement of what he had
Mr. secretary RYDE R. thought it would he more Mr. A. BARINQ was of opinion that the present
before stated in that House. He had been accused
advisable to postpone the consolidation of the Actssystem of. trading by licences wes calculeted to give
of • •such his ' giving an unfair statement, was not inten.
to another Session. great influence to Government.
lion, and he was unconscious of having done so. He
The question being put, leave was granted. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
did not contradict the statements of the Hon. Gentle-FINANCIAL RESOLUTIONS. man, but he was not aware of the influence
denied the possibility of such influence being exerted
The House resolved itself into a Committee of the of the
, Crown having inci eased as he (Mr. Martin) conceived without immediate detection.
whole House, on certain Finencial Resolutions. it had. He was surprised a short time back at seeing
Mr. 'BARHAM thought detection was by no
Mr. H. MARTIN said, he rose in consequence of how small a number of officers means easy.
lest the taxes. There was an addition of fifty mil-
the notice he had given, to bring forward his motion, were employed to col-
Mr. ROSE contended that if improper practices
lions to the revenue, and taking away the customs,
by which he should submit to the consideration of the were resorted to by Government in this respect, no-
House, the necessity there was that the House should which did not produce more than
new office could scarcelything could be more easy than to expose them.
a' eight of them, a
pay attention to the Third Report of the Committee • he f mud, and not more than
The first resolution was then agreed to.
on Public Expendituie. He was sure, after the 3O,MAR*I'IN next proposed the second resolu-
pledgeslo or 50 additional officers, and many of those Mr•
the House had given, that they would not • '. • • • in • tion, involving the expediency of the abolition of
• had their situations given compensation. With t
fail to attend to the very important point of economy Sinecures.
i respect to the increase of the Staff of the Army, he
in the expenditure of the public money e and that itMr. BANKER rose for the purpose of moving an
had not in the course of 17 or 18 years known of.
was highly necessary to do so as soon as possible, he more than 50 Commissions having been given. The Amendment. He thought that it was right to ascer-
thought no rite would doubt or deny ; for when they :Honeurable Gentleman had said, that he in his parn-
taio with what spirit the House entered upon the pre-
looketlat the enormous expenditure of the revenge, sent discussion, and that they should pronounce their
Office,
had not mentioned the Barrack, the Transport
it was their duty to attend particularly to the subject, opinion between the abolition of sinecure places, when
nor the Board of Controul. He had gone
even though no notice had been taken,, or mention intothey became vacant, and the regulation of them.--
madetilat when ..
detailthose subjects. II hoped ' •
. a on
of it in the speeches from the Throne. In the .Every succeedirigyear the Ministers had the painful
the Honourable Gentleman had read hispamphlet
article of pensions only, the whole amount was stated • him • that duty of proposing fresh burdens to be laid on the
•he would do justice, and acknowledge
at 81,500,000, and though he was willing,to concedepeople, and it was but natural for the people to ask
Ihe had not shut his eyes on them. With to
that many of the items. were in some measure neces- ; • they fell low respect • whether every thing was done that ought to be done, to
the 44 per cent. dunes, so at one time,.
nary, such as pensions to these who really deserved ;
' that they were for several years to pay
them, to the younger biaoch% of the Royal Family, ! which could be made in this way might be small, yet
, , the pensions to which they were appropriated. They
&c. yet even those sums, when attentively considered, . had subsequently recovered, and when they could it was a matter of great consequence in the principle.
1
would furnish arguments for the necessity of curtail-When tl.e people should see that nothing was im-
bear new charges, it was true that new ones bad bcen
ing the public expences. Though he believed there After f in • I posed unnecessarily, and that every burthen was taken
made. some urther remarks, reply to van-
would be no opposition to the principle of the Reso-lous parts of Mr. Martin's speech, the Right Honou-
i off which could be taken off, they would submit to their
lutions, ;yet the Right Honourable the Chancellor of I burthens with more cheerfulness. However small the
rable Gentleman concluded, stating his pamphlet to
the Exchequer had deemed it necessary to bring for- : retrenchments which could be made in this way wou'd
, have all the accuracy it was in his power to.give, and
ward' another set
,of Resolutions, some of which he i •appear, when compared with the general scale of our
fthe Honourable Gentleman would .-
' If i point ooh to tne
confessed he preerred to his own, particularly the . expenditure, it would not be a trifle, in the view which
. where he was in error, he should feel obliged to him,
two first, which he would certainly agree to adopt , b he had stated. In the content and comfort of the peo-
and would be happy to supply the requisite correction.
instead of his own ; but on the whole he did not think i pie it would be great indeed. He thought that the public
Mr. CREEVY contended that the influence of the
I they Went so far as his did. Another Honourable money should not be wastefully employed, and that it
Crown. had greatly increased. The pamphlet of the
• Gentleman on the floor below him (Mr. Bankes) hadshould be given only for the discharge of public duty.
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was calculated to
ale°, as be understood, prepared a third set of Resolu- Therefore when inefficient places and sinecures were
deceive: he had never seen any thing so unfair. The
tions. That Honourable Gentleman had certainly in existence, it became a vigilant Parliament to cor-
r.eductions he had set forth were but drop of water
paid great attention to the state of the finances,. and sect this abuse. He considered :hat an immense patro-
hisi the ocean. The Barracks—the contracts relating •
opinion could not but have great weight. with the • nage was attached to the inefficient place of Auditor
House and with the country. For his '(Mr. Martin's). to. them—the increase.
la offices ; and the pensions.
of the Exchequer. The expences of the office of the
t laries Judges of India, all tended „
tpart, he wag not wedded to his own plan, but should ad-dedaohe sftes of Treasury were not less than £60,000 a yeara and the
to increase that influence within that period in which
Ibe ready to adopt any that should appear to be pre. ? number of clerks was constantly increasing. He
i ferable. The Committee of Public expenditure had, ;he spoke of it as leing so greatly diminished. The
must object to those places where there were a no-
-lin 1796, suggested the propriety of abolishing- coo patronage obtained through the situation of the East : minal officer and an efficient one both receiving sa-
India C. that arising from colonial con- tai n
Law Offices • but since that time, no notice . ompany, an. laries. He would wish that the sinecures should be
quest ( which he had not stated), had a similar ten- .
! had been taken of the recommendation: On the con- abolished as they became' vacant, but at the same
; Crary, every officeand •. h ita.. , even reversion, . dency. The Bank, protected by Government, with- ' • • • •
A • been
holding •d ' • '• d • money are issuing paper, an in return col- . Cof
time he did not wish to deprive the Crowd the
i filled tip; Reversions and Pensions Fiven to stetsmeans of rewarding great services. The question
in Chancery and others, which practices called loudly . lecting the taxes for Gnome:vernment was another source , was, whether those services were best repaid by sines
of patronage. The se influence thus derived
l
: on the House to pay attention to the recommendation-.cures or by pensions, and he conceived that pensions
greatly exceeded the boasted reductions. The Riteit .
of the Committee. The Judges' salaries had since' i were the better way. There was an instance of the
on. Gentleman had gone into a detail of the re-
that time been increased, and Pensions granted on disposition of a sinecure within a few days (Mr.
their - retirement ; all which might be very prhper,- auctions, while he had pursued a very different course , Yolute's Tellership) and he would venture to say,
but he thought the House of Commiths should have with respect to the increase of expences. He had not : that upon a principle of rewarding services by pen-
attended to the mode of doing it without making it spoken of licences as increasing the means of patro- , sions, a pension equal to that sinecure would not have
1 a burden on the people. He then alluded to a nage. Upon the whole, he regarded it as a most un- . been given to Mr. Yorke. When it was only the
pamphlet lately published by a Right Hon. Gentle- :
• worthy production, as a pitiful performance, stating disposal of a sinecure, he was not the least surprised
partially,one side of the case.
' man opposite, (Mr. Anse) and norwithstandini the 'at the manner in 'which it had been given. In every
I.round assertions contained in it, he (Mr, mirtin was ! .Mr. ROSE felt no pain at having his pamphlet instance where distinguished service was performed,
' strict Pitiful erformance a p p .hy the Honourable Gen-
. certain that the influence: of the Crown had enor- • ---• , a pension was proposed and those sinecures were kept
meusly increased since the time of Mr. Dunning's re-
tleman. He was not aware that the Crown derived to reward set vices pf another description. This was
.solutions on that subject is 1780. Whether helooked
1
to the increase of the army, thenavy,the ordnance, and influence from Contractors. He knew of none in
that. House. He was ignor ant of the pensions of the a thing undoubtedly galling to the people. He
thought, Ithat there should be an abolition
t teretore,
Judges in India having the effect the Honourable Gen-
or the pensions granted. in defiance of Mr. Burke's' of the sinecures, as the lives dropt who now held
Bill, the increase of the influence of the C demon imputed to then).
[Crown was He disclaimed havingthem, with a power in his Majesty to grant pensions
availed himself of East-India patronage, and assured !
Immense; but it PAS infinitely more so in consequence commencing from the fall of the lives, and commen-
the Honourable Gentleman, that in granting licences -
iof the enormous increase if taxes, aping the modes of surate to this d minution. He thought the offices
collecting them. In the year 1786, when Mr. Dun- no partiality had been shewn to either side. of the which were men ly sinecure, ought to, be abolished;
• Heuse •
Ding moved his resolutions, the National. Debt 'was • that those where the emolument far exceeded the la-
DUNDAS denied that there was any estate. '. something more than £184,000,000. On the sth of Mr. boor, should be regulated so as to make the labour
lishment of Judges in India receiving above a million
January this year,* amounted to £784,000,000, and and the emolument correspondent ; and that ell those
persons denied that one of those He totally ear.
the interest to £29,972,000, which was an increase of a-yplaces which are executed by deputy, should be t
appointment
b
received
his
re-
fromhad y he influence of the
five to six times the amount. At that time theduced to the salary of the deputy,excepting what might
ot
Army Establishment was 837 General Field Officers,be considered an addition equivalent to the finding
recommended even a single individual, having given
now they were 2080, all deriving their Commissions sufficient securities. He then concluded by moving
his pledge to Lord Mint° to that effect. He must
from the Crown. The expenditure of the army was an amendment which included those opinions for the
then ‘6,000,000, it .is now £19,432,000. The ord- also flatly contradict the assertion of the Honourable abolition of mere sinecures, and the reduction of sa-
Gentleman with respect to the supposed 'influence of
nance expenditure was then £1,200,000, it is nowlaries in the other places,
Government in the appointment of writers. Of the
03,813,000. The Commissioned Officers were at that boned in his speech.
India sent
mass to by the Corn- . EXCHEQUER
time 1814, they .were now 4600. The expence ofThe CHANCELLOR of the
pang,
only one or two wererecommended by t he
the navy was then £6,000,000, last year it wasthought that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr
£19.578,000. All this he should think sufficient to Board of Controul ; a recommendation which, after could hardly expect that the rouse would
all, the Court of Directors had the option to adopt which
thew that the inflence of the Crown had not been di- first statement agree to propositions
t
Norect. was he Honourable Gentleman more
minished. But added to these, the Right Honourable or rejmaterially diminish the prerogative of the
when
he charged Govern-author of this pamphlet had totally forgotten the accurate in his statement The resolutions of the Hon. Member (MI
fertile fields of the Barrack Establishment, the Trans- ment with possessing great influence over the &let had been printed in the last session, together
India and Bank Directors; the fact was directly the
port Board, and. he Board of Contras'. From 4illresolutions which he himself had proposed
contrary
these statements, he thought the House would hardly I other side. Which ever way the House migt
! Mr CREEVY explained.
believe that the influence of the Crown was on the ' with respect to those resolutions, they woul,
• , . • • Mr. SIMEON defended the Masters in Chancery wane.• Mr. Burke's Bill stated that all the pen- -
from the imputation of being under the influence of • •
sions from the Crown should be confined to 460,000 contained in the amendment moved by his .
all
at not office
The
a year, It* was afterwards extended to 4901000, the Crown. nourable Friend they bad not ever been star
Lord Lb b
and if it had been found necessary 'to go further, it . It was not granted and therefore it could hardly be supposed
: Chancellor, and was a patent office for life.
should have been done, openly and not b subter- would be immediate adoted. He could
'hike, such as • t• P • • d Public Offices,
gian.ing .ensions an I Mr. MARTIN, in explanatit n, denied that the ofthe amendment,which
means approve
resolutions before
&c.*as had since been done. • These means, to whicheven introduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman
lie -had alluded, enabled the Crown to grant laiger , ference to the subject mentioned
.by the Learned . self as likely to be proluctive of any important
Gentleman.
PensiOns than was the intention of Parliament : they • . ing. He really could not conceive by Nith -
Were limited in. their extent by Mr. Burke's Bill to Sir J. N ICHOL, adverting tt? the statement which argument his Right Hon. Friend could core

titv u L A
sought to be abridg
The noblest streng tl
r. 13ANKE')
upon the fectiuns and confide
would so contended that ari
Crown.— be adopted, and he
[t.. Martin)
• firmly by the man s
Pursue it to the end
t!irrirOsoltwOoSr work and
e rd woi tn h
the the
ight decide
confuted; he also
old be aft-
principle- tic! ih the sum subsi
printcipriciple-h Ho- that in the whole cc
lied before# ceived or uttered a c
L that they
The note with resp
uld by n 4 corrected in a secot
h was not able Gentietnan wa:
teed. lusion of his spe
mien him-
ortant say;
mt train of Mr. WHITBRE:
evince him-

self that agreeing to such an amendment would do a
great deal to reconcile the imalk to their burdens,
and to take from he disaffected a handle and a wea-
pon. What practical good could such an amend-
ment produce ? The prerogative of the Crown *as
in the first place to be invaded. by the abdlition of
those places, and the public were not to Alibi any
advantage: His Right Hon. Friend himself had slot
stated any advantage, for he talked of a stibstknte
for those places which would cost as much as the
places themselires. He had proposed to give the
Crown the power of granting pensions commensurate ~
to the falling in of the sinecures. .1
Mr. BANKES said that was not his intention.—
1-le only thought that a power should be given to a
certain amount, to reward services by pensions. i
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
resumed. He did not see that thisexplattation at all
remedied the objection. The Right Honourable
Gentleman proposed the abolition of sinecures abso.
lutely, and he talked of a substitute, without inform-
ing the Committee to what amount he would propose
that this substitute should be carried. The Commit.
tee, therefore, only knew what he would have destroy-
ed, but not what he was to put in the place of it. If
le really did not mean to produce a diminution of
1 expence by the amendment, it was merely a matter
lof his private fancy with respect to a preferince of pen-
sions to sinecures. As to the illustration which the
Right Honourable Gentleman had selected of the dis-
posal of a sinecure a few days ago, Iseconsidered the
disposal as most imexceptionalsHear, hear, and
law laughter). His merits had been compared with
•,.11at of a Noble Lord (Wellington). He must, how-
ever, say, ti,at it never had been supposed, hitherto,
that those places were to be disposed of exactly ac-
carding
to the merits of all public services. They
-, ere considered as belonging to the patronage•of the
crown, to be given by it to any deserving servant of
tile Lountry it thaught fit. Mr. Yorke had served his
country in high public situations; and if such a place I
had ban granted to him, immediately after his ser-
ices as Secretary at War and Secretary of State, there ,1
erii,i i...ve been but little objection. The Right
H. n Gentleman himself said, that long and faithful
serv:,:es should be rewarded by something more than I
the daily pay. Now, what length of time would he
allow to be sufficient to earn such reward ? Mr.
Yorke had served above three years, and if it Were
allowed that it would have been a natural reward for
his services at that time, he would ask in how many
Scars the merit of former services was to be forgotten
in consequence of a man being out of office ? A great
deal had bs.s en said about the increasing influence of
the Crown ; but he should always contend that it
had not izere.ised of late years by any means in the
proportion that the popular branch of the'Legislature
had increased in its influence. The diffusion of
wealth and information had greatly increased the
rower of the people in the scale of the Constitution.
The ChancAlor 'of the Exchequer then read a long
eoract from Mr. Burke's book with respect to pub-
llc (economy, and showed that the opirucnts of Id;..
Marie were in many respects totally different from
those of the Right Honourable Gentleman.
Mr. BANKES suggested the idea of a postpone-
ment of the debate till his resolutions were printed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
acceciA on caudition that the postponement was sub-
sequent to the debate on the expedition.
MT. WHITBREAD could not allow the clues:
tier:, even now, to pass without a few observations.
H. remarked on the peculiarly bad grace with which
the Right Hon. Gentleman came forward in defence
of sinecures, he himself possessed .of Sinecures,,.tht
greatest rerersionist in the kingdom, and who hid in
the recent gift of one of those offices, to. Mr. Yorke,
shewn how widely the original 'principle for which
they were intended had been abandoned. (Near, hear!)
The conduct of his constituents plainly sheaved the
feeling of the country with respect to such grants.—
(Hear, hear!) He could not help thinking that M.
Yorke had in this been but justly treated, and cer-
tainly did not regret it, however inclined he might
be to confess his purity of intention. This dis-
posal of Sinecure Offices could not continue—it
-was rendered evident from the pan hlet of the Right
1-I:mat:rable Gentleman oppoaite Mr. Rose), who
•was an atohor in more senses one- it an one—it was
rendered, evioont from the pamphlet of Lord Mel.
.1---It was rendered evident from the pamphlet of
P110:1, .C., ^ LI
—on. Member, all of which plainly proved
Itfilaldtcr!,:f..publi.c were plundered.—(Hear.)—A note.
(.1 L into the notorious work of the Gentleman op-
p;:•,-; :opecting Lord Carrington ; it was most invi-
-17.11:c, and Lord Carrington, though a subscriber to
'jr.lieo
. Pilttr: ey r
scolnhlf.orts. , had refused to receive any 'of
ten had been subscribed to pay his
41bzs; he hoped so much could be said by the. Right
Honourable Gentleman and his friends. Another
most invidious note respecting Mr. Fox was to be
found in the same production. A *defence of these
offices had been, however, set up by an Hon. Gentle-
clan, who ::ad they were
dsaid
collected
Exche-
quer, but not paid out of the ft- from
thisw the
asoneo
ftheroisest delusions he had ever heard attempted to be
imposed upon the patience of the public. How did the
money g:a into the Exchequer, but ,from the purses of
the people ? Was not every shilling of it paid from the
ht.i:hesari?
u scltd e.
so
was ashamed to repeat arguments which
often already, and regretted much the
postponement now proposed,' as he was ready at that
Zithevihnitcthomdoo that which had been long expected,
finecure.s alto must be done at last—namely, to abolish
The people were now disgusted
with the grosssg:dyelerusions which had been practised. It
was idle to
soup ,„ , that the power of the Crown was
1, ,ht to be abridged by the abolition of sinecures.
fecl'le.onncsbalensdtstreth of the Crown consisted in the af.
confidence of the people.—(Hear.)—He
"tended that an economical reform must at length
Le
adopted,trit, and he hoped that the people would stand
'Y by the man who had the boldness apd virtue to
Porsne it to the
Mr. op • end.
SE defended *hat had beets called his
aot;ri,
confutut'ciwork , and denied that any feet in it bad been
tid ib .i.! he also declared, he had not 'participa-
ted
in sum subscribed to pay Mr. Pitt's debts, and
crheivteid
or uttered
whole course of his life he had never con-
uttered a disrespectful aentiment of Mr. Fox.
in ncte with respect to Lord Carrington had beeh '
able Gente4deinta second edition. The Right Honour-
conclusion _f.Tt, Was so much affected towards the
teed. Ul ms*peech as to be scarcely able to pro.
Mr. WHITBREAD
explained, and thot.,,,lit the

Right Honourable Gentleman ought trhank him
for giving him an opportunity of thus pu %cly retrac-
ting his errors or misapprehensions. The correction
in a second edition was not enough—" Pdai irrevo-
tabile verburn ;" and many might have seei( a first edi-
tion who never saw the second, which contained the
list and Correction of its errata.
After a few words from Mr. H. TIVITINTON,_Sir .T.
NEWPORT, Mr. riaptEs, and Mr. MARTIN, the further
consideration of the resolutions was referred to this
day fortnight, the Chairman reported progress, and
the House resumed.
Mr. Secretary RYDER br.aught up copies of letters ficom Mr.
Canning and the Marquis Wellesley, to Mr. Frere, which were
laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.
, Mr. CROKER brought up the answer of Sir R. Keats to cer-
tain questions put to him respecting the Walcheren Expedition;
ordered to be printed.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
5E14,662 were voted towards the erection of. a pier at Ardglass,
In the county of Down.
The other Orders of the Day were dispbeetrof, and the House
rose at Half-past Twelve. •