Star.
London, England, 1821-03-16 00:00:00

" FaciUs descenses Averni !"

He contended thaitiii:.lor;mitieeWas falsely called
one of Ways and Means, because it voted large sums
without really knowing what the Ways and Means
elf the country were. The object of every' man
should be to bring the Ministry to a sense of economy.
SieHENitY PARNELL ridiculed the notion of
these Estimates being brought forward with a view
to economy. It was evident that so long as the No-
ble Lord was in office there would be no reduction in
our Army, and consequently none in our expenditure
and taxation—(Hear, hear).—He complained of the
Army being used instead of the Civil Power in Ire-
land; but it was absolutely necessary, for, in fact,
there was no such thing as a proper Constable in that
country. The cause of this evil was, their being ap-
pointed by the Grand Juries. He hoped the Secre-
tary for Ireland would attend to this circumstance,
and place the Constables under the complete controul
of the Magistrates, which would enable the Noble
Lord to make a reduction in the Army in Ireland of
five thousand men. This would enable them to bring
the Army in that country to the peace establishment,
the same as we find it was in the year 179`2:
Lord PALMERSTON said, the practice of Par-
liament was, to inquire how low they could reduce
the various Establishments of the country, and then
to examine how the; were to be made good.
Mr. CALCRAFF was for keeping. up a great
Sian skeleton regiments and Officers, in case of a
sudden rupture. If, on a former occasion, he had
been led to say anything which cast reflection upon
any part of the military service of this country, he
now retracted it—(hear, hear).—There was no man
ratio honoured that service more than he did.
Mr. LOCK HART and Lord PALMERSTON explained.
Sit HUSSEY VIVIAN defended the conduct of
the Committee.
The Report was then brought up, when
Mr. HUME rose to move an Amendhient to the
Ern Resolution. In doing so, he denied that lie had
ever cast any reflection on the Guards—Wear, hear).
He considered that we were voting more men for the
service of the current year than our financial powers
could support. Hg wished that Magistrates should
belaught to use the Civil, instead of the Military
Powel. There was now, be believed, a barrack iu
the House of Coital:on,, which would not have bees
trnie'eti• by our consticutionaliancestors. We had a
liii=vest Police; and Ministers ought to turn

their attention towards improving the \Police. He
then moved that the number, of land troops should
be 71,000 men, instead of 81,000.
Colonel DAVIES seconded the motion ; and again
contended for reduction to the standard of 1792. He
challenged ally military man in the House to defend
the keeping up the Waggon Train. A reduction of
ten thousand men, might be made, without any in-
convenience to the service whatever.

Mr. R. MARTIN rose only to make one observa-
tion, which he wished to address to the Honourable
Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume), The leader of
the Opposition, if he understood him rightly, had
said, that the pay of the military might be reduced
one-half.—(A cry of " No").—He understood him
to have said so, and his object was now to know
how many of the Opposition concurred in opinion
with their leader, that the pay ought to be reduced
one-half? He merrly put the question, in order to
ascertain how far the Honourable Member's doctrine
was recognised by his party.
Mr. lIUME, with much warmth, denied that he
had ever used'such words; nor was the Honourable
Member justified in using his name in the way he
had—(Hear, hear).
Mr. It. MARTIN said, he had understood the'
Hon. Member to say so; but, if he was wrong, he
begged pardon of the House—(Hear, hear).
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON considered the Esti-
mates extravagant, and quite unsuitable to the situa-
tion of the country—(Hear, hear).—The People
could not bear this oppressive expenditure. When
he retorted to the melancholy distresses which pre-
vailed in Ireland, he left it to the Hon. Member for
Galway (Mr. R. Martin), who had voted for these
extravagant Estimates, to settle with his own Con-
stituents, how he could reconcile such a vote with
the famishing state of so many of his countrymen,
and with what taste he could follow up that vote,
with an attempt to turn into ridicule the exertions of
those Gentlemen who,like himself (Mr. Hutchinson),
had endeavoured to withstand the exorbitant expen-
diture of the ;Minister—(Hear, hear).—The Hon.
Member had talked of the Gentlemen at that side of
the House following some lead r. He (Mr. Hutchin•
son) knew no leader there. He denied they had a
leader. They looked, indeed, to the distresses of the'
People— to their financial difficulties, their nume-
rous grievances, and their oppressive treatment.—
They condemned the conduct of those Ministers who
had reduced the People to this situation, and who,
instead of alleviating, were aggravating their dis-
tresses. They deplored the policy of those Mi-
nisters abroad as well as at home, because they
thought both injurious to the character and true in-
terests of the country—(Hear, hear) —The more the
People became impoverished, the greater the extra-
vagance which pervaded the system of Ministers. If,
the Noble Lord persevered in grants like these, the,
result would eventually be, that the People of the
country, who, notwithstanding what was said By their
calumniators, were, he was convinced, disposed to
be good and loyal subjects, would be by their wants
goaded on to madness—(Hear, hear).—lnstead of
their being peaceable, the pressure of taxation would
make them the reverse. This was the inevitable ten-'
dency of the system pursued by Ministers. He beg-
ged pardon of the House; but he was anxious to re-,
peat the sentiments he had ineffectually urged on a
former night—(Hear, hear).
Mr. R. MARTIN, in explanation, denied that he
held up the efforts of the Gentlemen opposite to ridi-
cule. He had conceived the Hon. Member-for Aber-
deen to have proposed a reduction of the pay ; and
he had put the question gravely, and not in ridicule,
to ascertain whether such an intention met the sup-
port of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.
General FERGUSON left it to the Hon. Member
to reconcile his conception of what had fallen from
his Hon. Friend, with what had been actually said
by him—(Hear, hear).
Mr. WILBERFORCE having been prevented, by
indisposition, from attending the debates upon the'
question now before the House, wished to sate the
general principles upon which he intended to give
his-vote. He could not but wish that the military
establishments should be somewhat lower than the
Estimates which they were called upon to grant—
(Hear).—He could not but think so on account of
the distressed state, he must call it the impoverished
state, of the country—( Hear ).—He believed that
some reduction might be effected in the Home ser-
vice, but not in the Colonies. He could not think
that the House would be doing its duty by voting the
whole of the Estimates—(Hear).
Mr. W. SMITH said, that there never had been a
time when our foreign Colonies were more safe, and
that such a force would be sufficient as would pro.
tea them from a coup de main. From India to North
America none of our Colonies were in the smallest
danger. The foreign garrisons were the most expen•
sive of all, and a reduction there would be more
beneficial than in any other branch of the service.—
A reduction in them would else diminish the relief
force at home. He hoped that Ministers of them-
selves would diminish the military establishment,

. ,
though they might succeed in the present vote.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that in New South

Wales a regiment had been augmented from 600 to,
1,000 men ; and there had been two regiments sta-
tioned in Heligoland. The average number of troops'
that would be ineffectual from reliefs, would be
above 3,000 men. One of the first military' autho-
rities in the country had stated the Waggon Train to
be indispensably requisite. Ten thousand two hun-
dred and fifty rank and file were to be deducted from
the number of troops, and 60,000 was the real dis-
posable number.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that when the Honse gave
70,000 men, it was the lank of Ministers if the troops
did not amount to that number; 91,355 men would
be the amount of the force, including the Army in
India. He thought 24,000 enough tor Great Bri-
tain, and 18,000 for Ireland.
The House divided.—For the Amendment, 46
Against it, 116.—The other Resolutions were then
agreed to.