The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-10-04 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS.

The usual monthly meeting of the Town-council was held
on Wednesday morning, at eleven o'clock ; it was also the ad-
journed fourth quarterly meeting for business peculiar to a
quarterly council. The following is the list of the subjects
that were to be taken into consideration, according to the
notice served upon the councillors :
I.—The Proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the Finance
Committee, comprising-
-I.—The repayment of the charges of the landing vessels
by the ferries.
2.—The cancelling of the agreement for the sale of laud in
Great Howard-street, intended for the Caledonian school.
3.—Report on the Monks' Ferry.
4.—Mr. Tobin's application relative to the Magazines
erected by him, and report thereon.
s.—Memorial to the boards of Admiralty and trade as to
conservancy.
ll.—The proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the Im-
provement Committee.
lll.—The proceedings, resolutions, and report of the
Watch, Lighting, Scavenging, and Fire Police Committees,
comprising-
-I.—The appointment of collectors and assessors of the
Lighting, Cleansing, and Fire Police rates.
2.—The laying of the usual Fire Police rate of id. in the
pound.

3.—The cancelling of the contract for coals entered into by
Mr. John Deakin.
IV.—The proceedings, resolutions, and reports of the
Markets, Town-hall establishment, Custom-house, and
Church Expenditure Committees.
V.—The mayor's communications, and the report of the
town-clerk on the legality of members of the council or Dock
Committee contracting with the docks, and on the appoint-
ment of a place for the deposit of smothered cattle.
Vl.—The proceedings, resolutions, and directions of the
Dock Committee, comprising resolutions for a bill in parlia-
ment, to give power to make a dock, to the westward of the
Salthouse Dock, with warehouses ; to erect warehouses on
the west quay of the Prince's Dock ; and to make a Graving
Dock for steam-vessels ; and for the general improvement
of the management and regulation of the docks.
Vll.—Any business peculiar to a quarterly council.
VIII.—An application to allow, under special circum-
stances, the enrolment of the indentures of apprenticeship of
John James Evans, John Henry Bland, and John Williams,
the younger, after the expiration of the period limited by the
bye-law.
IX.—The following motions, of which notices had been
given, -viz. :-
I.—By Mr. Councillor BOLTON--That the resolution of
the council, of the 4th of September, be rescinded, so far as
it relates to the appropriation of Islington Market as a site,
on which a school should be erected ; and that the Educa-
tion Committee be directed to select some other place.
2.—By Mr. Councillor I. HOLMES—That it is improper
for the salaried officers of the corporation to interfere in the
municipal elections. That to secure freedom of election, the
different committees be requested to order all officers and
servants employed by the corporation, to abstain from using
their influence, directly or indirectly, in endeavouring to bias,
or influence, any votes at the forthcoming, or any future,
municipal election for this borough.
SUPPORT OF THE LANDING VESSELS.
In allusion to a portion of the report of the Finance Com-
mittee, relative to the propriety of the ferry steamers paying
a proportion of the charges for the landing stages, &c.
Mr. WOOD expressed his opinion that it was mean and
paltry in the corporation to ask the ferries to pay for the use
of the landing stages. The Dublin steamers, and many
other descriptions of boats, used the stages and steps as well
as the steamers from the ferries. The salt and coal vessels
were admitted free of charge into the docks, and he thought
it exceedingly improper to think of charging the ferries for
the accommodation which the public received. The accom-
modation at present afforded was not enough ; it was quite
disgraceful. There ought to be better accommodation both
at the north and south ends of the town. He repeated, that
it was mean and paltry to think of making the proprietors
of ferries pay. He moved that that portion of the report be
referred back to the committee for reconsideration.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES seconded the resolution. He thought
the accommodation was not worth much, for three weeks
ago he came over from the other side in one of the ferry
strainers, when they were ten minutes in crossing, and half
an hour in landing. He concurred in every thing, that had
been said by Mr. Wood.
Mr. PLATT said, by the accommodation afforded to the
proprietors of ferries, they were saved considerable expense
both in landing and labour. Some time since application
was made to them to pay part of the expense. The only
reply was, that they recommended the corporation to lay out
more money, and make the landing accommodations better,
as at present they were very bad.
Mr. CURRIE.said the expense of supporting the landing
stage was more than a thousand pounds per annum. The
stage sustained` considerable damage continually from the
shocks which it received, so that a new vessel would soon be
required, which would cost about £l9OO. He thought it was
not unreasonable to expect that those who were accommo-
dated should pay a portion of the expense ; and so far from
the whole of the ferries not being inclined to contribute,
three of them had expressed their readiness to do so. The
corporation having undergone the expense of making the
stages, were now willing to contribute half to their support.
If, on further discussion, it were found that a half was too
much to expect from the ferries, the proportion might be
altered so as to suit the views of all parties.
TheTOWN-CLERK said, on application being made, the New
Brighton and Eastham companies stated their willingness to
contribute, but the others refused. The ferries in Cheshire
maintained the exclusive right to their stairs and slips, and
refused to let the public have the use of them. The corpo-
ration had thrown the right of ferry open, and had erected
steps and slips, and provided other facilities for landing, of
which the ferry proprietors had the full benefit. This had
proceeded so far in the year 1811, that, on application for a
bill in parliament, they claimed to have steps, and the right
of using them, and a clause was inserted in the bill accord-
ingly. The slips and stairs on the Cheshire side were private
property ; they were kept exclusive, and the public were even
prevented from landing from boats. If the corporation did
not protect itself, the time was coming when the ferry com-
panies would assert a right and property in the steps, slips,
and landing stages.
Mr. SHE 11. was of opinion that a large amount of money
ought not to be expended annually without sufficient consi-
deration. The Finance Committee had considered this sub-
ject, and it was not here for the benefit of the public that the
public money was expended, but for the benefit of a few mo-
nopolists, who would not even allow a person going in any
boat but theirs to land. Was it fair, he would ask, that the
public money should be expended exclusively for their bene-
fit? They all knew what charges had been exacted till an
opposition was commenced, and the most strenuous exertions
had been used to put that opposition down.
Mr. BLACKBURN expressed his sorrow that such language
as " mean and paltry' should be applied by any gentleman
in that Council to individuals who were acting conscientiously
for the public benefit.
The Council went to the vote on Mr. Wood's motion,
which was lost by a majority of 43 against 3. The two gen-
tlemen who supported Mr. Wood were Messrs. Isaac Holmes
and Franklaud.
The proceedings of the Improvement, Watch, Market, and
Town-Hall Establishment Committees, were read and con-
firmed. In the report of the latter it was named, that the
stock of port wine in the Town-Hall for the use of the May-
or's table being deemed too large, it had been determined to
sell by auction 150 dozen of it.
A memorial from the committee of the Royal Institution,
praying for the support of the Corporation, was referred to
the Finance Committee.
Memorials fi om the chairman and treasurer of the North-
ern Hospital, and from the Lancashire County Refuge for the
Destitute, were likewise referred to the Finance Committee.
A memorial from theinhabitants of St. Paul's Ward, pray-
ing for the enlargement and improvement of Pownall-square
Market, after being supported by Messrs. Barton and Wright,
was referred to the Market Committee.
THE BILLET-MASTER.
It was stated that the following individuals were candidates
for the office of billet-master .—William Parlour, Staff-
Serjeant Langshaw, Peter Stubbs, James Abbott, John
Healy, James Gilbertson, Charles ooper, and John Bruce.
It appeared however, that the Mayor has appointed Mr.
Hayton pro tem. but that it is the intention of the Watch
Committee to continue the office either with Mr. Hayton or
Mr. Dowling, so that the occasional assistance of the clerks
of the Watch-office may be given in times of pressure.
CONTRACT, &C., BY MEMBERS OF THE DOCK COMMITTEE.
The Tow N-CLERK stated his opinion on the subject of ten-
ders by members of the Council, &c., for work required by
that trust. He said, a member of the Council, whether one
of the Dock Committee or not, was a trustee for the Docks,
and a member orthe Dock Committee chosen by the rate-
payers, substantially filled the like office. The member of
the committee acts more directly than the member of the
Council, not of the committee, in all contracts and bargains,
but the member of the Council votes in the election of mem-
bers of the committee, and he sits in judgment, to confirm
or annul the contracts with the trust, and amongst them, if
he deal with the trust, his own. All the rules of law and
equity affecting trustees, apply to these three several parties,
the member of the Council who is also a member of the com-
mittee, and the member of the Council who is not one of the
committee, and the member of the committee who is elected
by the rate-payers. A trustee cannot legally sell his trust;
his duty is not satisfied by his being an umpire between the
trust and himself, or by his being absent or inactive when
his own contract has to be considered. His dealing with the
trust would be pronounced illegal by a Court, and his con-
tract may be open at any time, and. its prices and execution
inquired into, and he may be required to account for any
profit made by him. And if he be only an agent on com-
mission, he is equally liable to his transactions being declared
illegal and investigated, for he will not be supposed efficiently
to serve two interests. These rules as to trustees in general,
apply more strongly to trustees, whose dealing with the trust
might affect public competition, and whose influence must
operate upon their servants, to whom generally belongs the
duty to see the due execution of their contracts. An opinion
given by me to a member of the Council in August, 1837, has
been referred to : but that opinion was on the question, whe-
ther the contract of a member of the Council (not one of the
Dock Committee) with the dock trust, amounted to a dis-
qualification to be a Councillor, under the words of the 28th
section of the Municipal Act, viz., " during such time as he
shall have directly, or indirectly, by himself or his partner,
any share or interest in any contract or employment with, or
on behalf of the Council." Upon considering that question,
I thought the contract did not disqualify ; but that question
is perfectly independent of the general principles of law and
equity, applying to trustees of every kind which I have re-
ferred to ; and it is my duty to state, that on revising that
opinion on the question of disqualification, and reconsider-
ing the effect of the Municipal Corporation Act on the Dock
Trust, I do not think the point entirely free from doubt.
Upon this question of disqualification, I do not think it ne-
cessary to give any further opinion, as I suppose that if the
report I now make on the general law affecting trustees be
received by the Council, no question will hereafter arise, and
with regard to the question referred to by the member for
Great George-street Ward, it is my duty to state, that it ap-
pears that the contractor was only an agent, a fact which
would be very material in any question in the 28th section of
the Municipal Corporations Act, though not excluding the
case from the general principles affecting trustees which I
have referred to.

DOCK COMMITTEE. PROPOSED NEW DOCK AND WARE-
HOUSES. WAREHOUSES ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE
PRINCE'S DOCK, &C.
The proceedings, resolutions, and directions of the Dock
Committee were read, comprising the following resolutions
moved in the committee by Mr. Evans, and seconded by
Mr. Benn.

" Resolved,—That this committee, since their late un-
successful endeavours to seek a bill in Parliament that would
enable them to effect substantial improvements in working
the docks, committed to their management, have, as set
forth in their report, accomplished a full investigation into
the practical working of the several docks, the result of
which investigation confirms the opinion which the committee
had previously entertained, that no plan for dock improve-
ment, which does not include warehouses to be erected, to a
certain extent upon the dock quays, will meet the wants of
trade, and give full effect to the vast advantages possessed by
this great port.
" That it is incumbent upon the Trustees of the Docks to
seek a bill in Parliament, which will give them power to effect
all further necessary regulations particularly to build ware-
houses in certain specified situations on the dock quays;
and that such warehouses will probably produce an increase
of trade sufficient to find employment for an additional dock,
it will be expedient to form a new dock to be constructed
upon a plan the best calculated to combine advantageously
in its working with the warehouses with which it is to be
surrounded.

That these warehouses should be chiefly, if not ex;

elusively, devoted to. the storage of foreign and colonial pro-
duce, bonded for either exportation or home use.
" That it will be further expedient to construct, forthwith,
warehouses of two stories high, exclusive of the quay or
ground floor, along the west side of the Prince's Dock.
" That the King's Dock, as being detached from the great
thoroughfares, offers peculiar advantages for its being en-
closed with warehouses ; but that this committee do not,
for the present, deem it advisable to undertake this desirable
improvement.
That it is desirable to obtain powers to build a graving
dock, for the accommodation of steam vessels of a large class,
or to alter one of the existing graving docks for that purpose.
" Resolved,—That the bill, as prepared for introduction
into Parliament last session, he placed in the hands of the
Solicitor of the Trust, for such examination and revision,
with a view to the adoption of such parts as may be necessary
to meet the intentions of the foregoing resolution : and that
the Solicitor be directed to prepare the requisite notices to'be
published at the proper time, in conformity with the standing
orders of the House of Commons, to enable the committee
to introduce such bill into Parliament early next session.
" Resolved also,—That the Dock Surveyor be instructed
to re-consider and revise the plans and estimates of warehouse
and dock improvements, which were approved of last year,
and submit the same to this committee as early as practicable,
in order that the plans,, with the necessary section, may be
deposited in such places as are required, and within the time
limited by the standing orders of the House of Commons."
The MAYOR said he would put the proceedings, save so
much of them as related to the measures requiring parlia-
mentary proceedings. First, the confirmation of the pro-
ceedings of the Dock Committee under existing acts—con-
firmed.° The next point would be the resolution of the Dock
Committee for application to Parliament for an act giving
power to make a dock, and to erect warehouses on the dock
quays. _

In reply to a question from Mr. Case, the TOWN-CLERK
said, this question being a proceeding on new matters not in
the powers of the Dock Committee, would be decided by a
bare majority, according to the municipal act. He had already
had this opinion confirmed by those of Messrs. Cressvvell and
Wightman, and the Dock Committee had received similar
opinions from the Attorney-General, and Mr. Starkie..
Mr. Alderman EVANS then rose to move the confirmation
of that portion of the Dock CoMmitfee's proceedings which,
require parliamentary proceedings.. After stating his astonish
ment at the question put by Mr. C. Lawrence; Mr. Alderman
Evans said that they had heard a complaint from Mr. Leigh
of being hurried in the measure—that he (the speaker) na-
turally expected, but when gentlemen reflected that they had
there, as nearly as possible, the substance of the proposition
of last year, it was in.possible to disconnect the present pro-
ceedings from those of last yeari therefore they might be
considered in fact as one and the,same thing. By the reso-
lutions the council would perceive the Dock Committee since
their last defeat in the council, had become more confirmed
in the necessity of warehouses on the dock quays than ever ;
and it might be proper to show that to proceed on the prin-
ciple of open docks was abiolute dekruction, whilst that of
closed docks was exactly the reverse. That the Dock Com-
mittee had not enlarged the scale of their recommendation as
to dock warehouses was attributable to causes which he had
no, need to explain. They had, like other people, to bend a
little to the opposition of those opposed to them. He would,
for the present, confine himself to an isolated fact: the Dock
Committee now propoSed to build a dock to the west of the
Salthouse Dock, the favourable portion of which was shown
by its contiguity to the Old Quay, to the docks, to the river,
and by its bearing on all parts of the town in a central man-
ner. On the last occasion, the opponents of the dock ware-
houses were clamorous for dock room, and especially for that
new dock. Now; Mr. Hartley's estimate for the dock, in-
cluding £166;862 for land, was in round numbers, £500,000,
the interest on which, with a provision for casualties, occa-
sional repairs, and management, was estimated to be £25,000
a-year. This obServation had reference to an open dock.
The returns of an open dock of the proposed dimensions,
about six acres, would come to X 13,193, deducting which sum
from X 25,000, there would be an absolute loss yearly, calcu-
lating at the present rates, of between £12,000 and X 13,000.
What was this, then, but the building of a dock on a princi-
ple of double dock rates ? But the surveyor had only to
wave his hand, with the permission of the council, and the
prospect, which before was gloomy, became perfect sun-
shine. Surround the dock with warehouses, the estimate
for which was X 211,097, and the-case would be very different.
Those warehouSes, he might venture to say, would be
fire-proof. There could not, under any circumstances;
be a lateral fire ; if there were any at all, it would be a per-
pendicular fire. The pi °posed warehouses were to be five
stories high; they would have every convenience, and were
to cost £211,097. The interest on that amount, with an am-
ple allowance for, repairs-L-for the working the warehouses
had nothing to,do with it—would amount to X 9000: the re-
venue derivable from them would be wbout £27,000. This
estimate was made on the wholesale scale at which ware-
houses of the same superficial contents were let in the busi-
ness parts of,the town ; and they would perceive that a yearly
profit of £lB,OOO would be left. Now, if this calculation was
correct, he maintained that this was an important fact, leav-
ing out of view the great desideratum that these warehouses
were; and all the advantages of location. Besides the saving
of the whole expense of cartage, there would be security
from fire and pilferage, and the great result of the merchant
possessing a proper check, and great despatch, which were
all in addition. What was the result, then, on the whole state
of the matter, taking the, open dock on one hand and the
closed dock on the other.? Why, that while there would be
a loss on,ths open dock of £12,000 a year, that on the closed
dock there would be a profit, not only sufficient to cover that
loss, but to pay the interest and expenses of the dock itself.
" Look on this pictnre and on that." And he would put it
to that assembly—=but in fact he had no need to do that, be-
cause an assembly of intelligent men and men of business
must already have arrived at the conclusibn that it was
impossible that the Dock Committee, in the discharge of
their duty, could, with this information before them, for one
instant entertain the idea of an open dock and reject that of
a closed one. They could not, as men of business, and as
persons invested with the Management Of =lmportant trust
—if they would, they dare'not, Contemplate so gross a viola;
tion of common sense.' It was not his intention, with the
privilege he had of replying; to' keep the council anylonger';
but with respect to the attempt that had been made to inti-
midate the council by showing the possibility of the expense
of the application falling on them, he felt perfectly confident
that that attempt would failaltogether; for in matters of great
result and the highest possible attainment, it would ill be-
come that council to be influenced by an •y money considera-
tions, from fairly trying the, question. It was of no conse-
quence, looking at it in reference to the interests of the com-
munity, what might be the cost of the bill—it was as a pound
in comparison with a million, and he had no doubt that the
council would take care of themselves.
Mr. Alderman LEATHOM merely seconded the motion, re-
serving to himself the right of speaking in the course of the
debate, if he thought proper.
• Mr. SANDS intimated that he intended to move an amend-
ment. He said that he did not exactly understand the argu-
ments of Mr. Alderman Evans with respect to the proposed
Jock to the west of the Salthouse Dock ; but in other points
he mainly concurred with him. The amendment he should
propose was founded on the principle advocated in the me-
morial presented to the Dock Committee some time ago.
He did not know that he need 'say more than that. The
amendment was as follows :
" That, concurring entirely in the opinion that great expe-
riments in public improvements ought not to be stayed from
motives of private interests ; and that, na, the other hand,
individual rights are entitled to every projection consistent
with the public good, this council resolve that equal justice
will be administered, and every contemplated benefit secured,
by authorising the Dock Committte to sell or let, on long
leases,"by public auction, such portions of the dock quays as
they may think suitable for the erection of warehouses, upon
such terms and conditions for insuring the due management
thereof as may be hereafter determined upon ; and that the
powers proposed by the Dock Committee as to the ware-
houses be limited accordingly, and that, subject to this quali-
fication, the resolutions of the Dock Committee be con-
firmed."
Mr. CHARLES LAWRENCE seconded the motion, and said
that he could not answer the remarks of Mr. Evans with
respect to himself, as he had not distinctly heard them.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said that when he recollected that this
subject had already been twice decided, and when he bore in
mind that the council, or at least many of its members, were
approaching the close of their period of servitude, he could
not himself but consider the introduction of the question
again, to say the least, as irregular and uncalled for. There
could be no doubt that the claims of the candidates to muni-
cipal honours would, at the approaching election, be tested
by their opinions on this all-important question. For his
own part, therefore, he should be inclined to let it stand over
till the next meeting after the election, in order that the sen-
timents of the constituents in the respective wards might be
fairly and fully understood. As, however, he considered the
proposal of Mr. Sands a fair and honourable one, as apply-
ing a remedy without inflicting an injury, he should, if it
came to the vote, cordially support it.
Mr. D'. Honososr supported the amendment, and said
that the question was, by whom the warehouses were to be
built, and by what mode could they secure the most.efficient
management, with the least possible disadvantage. In his
opinion, nothing had been laid before the council, nor was
anything in the past experience of the Dock Committee, to
shew that that body was so constituted—he meant nothing
personal—as to render it a desirable thing to commit to them
the management of warehouse property. This, he believed,
was not an individual opinion ; it had been distinctly asserted,
by the largest assembly of the mercantile interest of this
town, that the management of the dock trust had not been of
a kind to give satisfaction. There was capital to any extent
ready to 'be invested, in this town or any part of the empire,
in any way by which an adequate return could be foreseen ;
and there would not be the smallest difficulty in selling land,
under certain regulations, to any extent to which the Dock
Committee had the power to sell. Warehouses, affording
every possible accommodation, could be erected by private
persons, and managed by them so as to give every satisfaction
to the public. • Besides, by :.offering the land to private per-
sons, the very individuals whose interests were invaded might
become partners in the new property. The management of
such warehouses, in the hands of private individuals, would
be infinitely superior' to that of the Dock Committee. He
did not propose that the land should be sold in small lots, to
build one warehouse here and there, but in lots sufficient for
the erection of buildings worth ten, or twenty, or even one
hundred thousand pounds; the purchasers giving to the dock
trust all the security which the latter had a 'right to demand.
To this plan he could see no objection ; there was nothing in
it to disturb the unanimity and tranquillity of the town. He
would ask whether,' considering the decided opposition that
had had been shown to the building of warehouses by the
Dock Committee, the proposal could be looked upon as any-
thing more than a vexata qucestio. If the bill were brought
before parliament, it would certainly be most strenuously op-
posed ; and it could scarcely be supposed, what with the ac-
tive opposition and the present state of parliament, that there
was the slightest hope of such a bill being carried. The pro-
posal to introduce it could only serve to keep the town in
hot water. He thought that the end which the Dock Com-
mittee had in view would be served by the plan pointed out
in the amendment, and he hoped that they would adopt it.
There would then be little difficulty in getting the measure
through.
Mr. Alderman EARLE observed that he did not like to give
a silent vote on this subject. He admitted that he was a ware-
house proprietor, and he must say that he had no idea of
having his throat cut if he could prevent it. Where the public
good was to be consulted, almost any sacrifice of private pro-
perty became necessary; but it must be clearly shown that
the project was requisite for the public good, and that every-
thing else that could be done had been done. His friend Mr
Evans had written a very able pamphlet, but it was disfigured
by the high colouring of the advantages to be derived from
the proposed plan. According to that pamphlet, the trade of
the port might be languishing, and yet in that chamber and
elsewhere they were told that it was improving. He (Alder-
man Evans) said that the warehouse property which became
useless could be converted to other purposes, and if that near
the Exchange was referred to, the assertion might be correct ;
but what was to become of the large stacks at the Goree and
near to the Prince's Dock ? It was an insult to the warehetuse
owners to say that they would not be injured. If warehouses
on the dock quays were necessary for the public good, the
warehouse owners must give their consent to them. Mr.
Evans said in his pamphlet that they were necessary ; but
that was no proof—that did not make it so. There would be
a great opposition to the measure, and as to the ultimate re-
sult he had no doubt; the town would never allow the Dock
Committee to be warehouse proprietors, no more than it
would allow them to become merchants. He dared to say,
that Mr. Evans would not like them to become cheap import-
ers of timber. Mr. Evans said a great deal abont the Irish
members whom he expected to support the scheme ; but he
(Mr. Earle,) would allow O'Connell to flourish his tail as he
liked. At one time the doctors used to cry out, " Bleed,
bleed, bleed ;" but now there was nothing but a cry of "Dock-
warehouses"—nothing else but that. No other improvement

whatever could be thought of: He should certainly vote for
the amendment.
Mr. H. HOLMES.—And so shall I.
Mr. CURRIE, after remarking on the new features which
the opposition had taken in this debate, in the course of which
• no one had denied the necessity of warehouses, but in which
the contention seemed to be solely as to who were to have the
building and management of the warehouses, suggested that
the council, instead of adopting the amendment of Mr. Sands,
or the resolutions as they stood, should consent=-for they
could not stifle the question—to entertain the motion so far;
as to allow the Dock Committee to give the requisite notice,
but that all further proceedings should be- for the Present
postponed—(cries of" No, no,")—until the bill came before
them, when they would have a full opportunity of going
through its various sections. Perhaps, by taking that course,
some compromise might bemade, by which the interests of
both parties might be upheld. He himself felt a difficulty in
supporting either the motion or the amendment.
Mr. T.. HARVEY thought the subject ought not to be fur-
ther postponed. He thought they now knew all about it, as
it had been fully debated. He wished the Dock Committee
had brought forward a measure that reasonable men might
have commended. He thought instead of building ware-
houses on the Prince's Dock quay, they might build a new
dock with warehouses, without pledging themselves to build
on any docks that they might make in future. He thought
in this he saw the way to an honourable compromise. If the
Dock Committee went on with aquestionwithout any change,
they would be defeated ; if the warehouse owners thought to
go on for ever as they had done, they would be defeated.
Mr. BOLTON said they had heard nothing so far of the old
defence of vested rights. The necessity for warehouses was
now fully conceded.
Mr. BENN said the proposal did not. go beyond the making
of warehouses round the new dock, and on the west side of
the Prince's Dock. Bonded warehouses were greatly wanted,
and it would take five years to complete the new dock, while
those on the west of the Prince's Dock would be completed
in two years ; therefore, they thought it their duty to get
those completed as soon as possible.
Mr. BLACKBURN spoke at considerable length in favour of
the original motion. He spoke of the probable increase of
the trade of the port, in consequence of the new measures
which were likely to be brought forward, alluding -particu-
larly to the repeal of the corn laws, and the necessity of
being prepared for such increase.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES said that he, could not fully concur
in the amendment of Mr. Sands, because he had expected.
that' the recommendation of the Finance Committee wotild
. he carried into effect; but, as he considered, the amendment
had been made from a willingness to concede almost any.
thing for the purpose of setting the question at rest both in
the council chamber and the town, he should undoubtedly
have been much better satisfied if the subject had been al-
lowed to rest at the report of the Finance Committee, be-
cause, after a great deal of labour, they came to the conclu-
sion to recommend the erection of transit sheds, which they
conceived would give every facility sought for by the ware-
house plan. But a new light had broken upon the town, he
Supposed, iu the shape of a pamphlet ; a kind of a Lucifer
matoh had been kindled, and there seemed to be little doubt
that the gentleman would continue striking his light until he
had obtained his object. He and others were confident that
the whole subject had been settled ; but they were wrong ;
for there were in the-world persons who, like the little birds
out at sea, known as Mother Cary's chickens, seemed
to delight in tempests arid glory in storms. The gentleman
seemed to think that the public were much interested in the
matter. He had no doubt some were interested—deeply
interested, particularly those who were looking out for snug
places when the scheme should have been carried into effect.
The last speaker seemed to be of opinion that the Dock Com-
mittee was a popular body—that it emanated from the peo-
ple. Such was not the fact: It was constituted of eight per-
sons, chosen by the rate-payers, and of thirteen Chosen by the
council, twelve of whom were persons not selected in that
room, but elsewhere, and who, so far from being the people's
choice —(Cries of " Question, question.") Yes, that was always
the case; there was alviiao a cry of" Question, question," when
unpalatable truths werF.,being told by any one on the op-
position side ; but other:E might travel out of their way as
much as they liked--s-theY could even introduce the subject
of the corn laws, or anything else, as had been done by Mr.
Blackburne, and still no cry of " Question" be raised. He
(Mr. Holmes) was not, however, to be put down in that way.
He was speaking of the formation'of the Dock Committee,
which was said to be a body chosen by, the people ; but the
fact was, that seven of them were aldermen, and four of those
seven had actually been rejected by the people. Mr. Holmes
went on to contend that by the erection of warehouses on
the dock quays there would he increased risk of fire, and
that there would not, as seemed to be anticipated, be any
reduction of the rates of insurance in consequence of the
building of dock; warehouses. He denied that there was
such a disparity between the rates of insurance in London
and Liverpool as"uid been frequently stated. As to the
Proposed new dock, it would pay 24 per cent., and the Dock
Committee would be obliged to raise some ten or twelve
thousands a year to- make up the loss which would result from
its erection. It seemed that something was determined to
be clone, and it was therefore better, perhaps, to make the
concession which had been made, and allow the warehouses
to be built and managed by private persons. He, however,
would strenuously oppose such a great monopoly being vested
in the bands of the dock trust. Look at the influence they
would derive from it. He had been told that the Dock
Committe was a paradise of purity, but he had no doubt that,
when it came to be examined, it would be found to be the
purity of Paradise-street. (Laughter.) In the building of
the warehouses there would, too, be another job. In fact,
everything served as an argument against the scheme, and
an argument could be found in everything.
„.
Mr. RATHBONE said that he rose under great disadvantagei
after the eloquent speech of the gentleman who had preceded
him. That gentleman had accused the Dock Committee of
everything that .was- wrong; but they might console them-
selves with the reflection that he only gave utterance to the
evil and iniquitous thoughts of his own mind.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES.—That is not the first time that Mr.
Rathbone has reflected upon me, and I appeal to you, Mr:
Mayor, whether such conduct is right. (Loud cries of
" Order," and " Chair, chair.")
The MAYOR hoped that Mr. Rathbone would withdraw
the word " iniquitous ;" but he thought that all would agree
that expressions had been used by Mr. Holmes which justi-
fied the retort.
Mr. RATHBOIVE.—I am always willing,to bow to.the chair,
and I therefore withdraw the word " iniquitous ;" I will say,
those unworthy motives attributed from a consciousness Of
them in his own mind.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES.—I can retort that by saying, it is
from his own unworthy motives that be-is, led to attribute
such to me.
Mr. RATHBONE.—He has accused us of jobs, and trickery,
and paraphernalia, and every rubbish ; and he wotild not du
so unless conscious of it himself.
M r. HIGGINS.—I beg leave to say that if the honourable
gentleman continues such a course of conduct T shall move
a vote of censure on him.
Mr. RATUBONE then.proceeded to speak briefly in favour
of the original motion.
Mr, CASE expressed his gratification at the near approach
to unanimity which had been seen, it being now adulated
that warehouses on the dock quays were absolutely neces-
sary. He should certainly prefer warehouses Under the
management of a public trust ; for he looked upon the sell-
ing of land on the dock quays to private individuals as an
extremely objectionable thing.
Mr. PLATT said that the only hesitation he had ever had
was now removed by the admission of all parties of the
necessity of the measure.
Mr. Alderman EVANS then replied,.alluding briefly to the
objections which had been urged.
The vote was then taken on the amendment of Mr. Sands,
which was negatived by a majority of 33 to 20. The follow-
ing is a list of the voting.
For the amendment—
Councillors—Hodgson, J. Holmes • Holmes, Shand,
Preston, Barton, Wright, Sands, Holmes, C. Lawrence,
Cooper, Wood, Harvey, Mason, Smith, G. H. Lawrence,
Leigh. Aldermen—Jones, Earle, Frerne.
Against the amendment—
Councillors—Thornhill, Case, Frankland, Mellor, Bolton,
Pilcher, Walmslev, Bright, Woollright, Rathbone, Carson,
Higgins, Blackburn, Morecroft, Segar, Coglan, Jordan,
Platt, Ramsden, Duncan, Currie. Aldermen—Sheil, Horn-
by, Roskell, Leathom, Holt, Benn, Moon, Evans, Bulley,
Holt, Harvey, the Mayor.
The original-motion was then put and carried. The mem-
bers were—For the motion 32, against it 21. The members,
with the exception of Mr. Frankland, who voted against the
motion, gave their votes exactly the reverse of those whic
they had given for the amendment.
The Council adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock.