Star.
London, England, 1821-01-24 00:00:00

was tried, and it was since found, that prices had
fallen down to the former amount at which they
were when that remedy was adopted; and to what
was this fall of prices to be ascribed but to an increase
of produce? During the last two years there was
no increase of importation, and yet prices had fallen.
It was therefore his opinion that no Legislative re-
gulation whatever ought to take place on this sub-
ject ; for of one law of this kind which had done any
good, nine out of ten had done mischief. Let not
the idea then go forth, that, because an evil existed,
there ought to be a Legislative remedy. He should
crow proceed to notice the most important topic con-
nected with his Majesty's Speech, and the observa-
tions of the Noble Lord, in order to explain the
policy and the views of the Government. Nothing
could be more explicit on this subject than his Ma-
jesty's Speech, in which the King said, he should
regret if the occurrences in Italy should lead to an
interruption of tranquillity in that quarter, and that'
his object should be to secure the continuance of
peace. Indeed, the system and the policy of this coun-
try leaned to peace, with a view to our own condition.
But he would now say, that there was no war which
we should be more backward to engage in, than one
that had for its object an interference in the concerns
of other countries— ( Hear, hear.—He had often
before stated, that cases might occur in which such
interference would be necessary, on the ground of
our security. But he would say, that the general
doctrine ought to be, that of the standing policy of
this country being to avoid wars of this kind. The
present was not the time to enter into' such questions
as these; but opportunities would hereafter arise, in
which it might be necessary to speak out on this
subject. The Noble Lord allowed that this country
had nraiutained a strict neutrality ; but his doctrine
would lead to anything else than neutrality; for it
must go the length of taking a decided part with one
Power or the other. His (Lord Liverpool's) principle
was, that a total abstinence from any interference
WAS the precise line of policy which our duty
pointed out to us as the only one that ought to. be'
adopted ; and he could assure the House, that no
measures would be taken by this Government that
were not in the true spirit of neutrality ; and that
there should be no attempt at interference in the',
concerns of other countries. With regard to that part'
of the Speech which said that there should be a re-
duction in the military force of the country, he had
• to say, that last year there were circumstances which
rendered an increase of the military necessary. . But
now he thought that such reductions might be made
as could produce a considerable saving; and, indeed,
he thought that, altogether, the expenses of the
country might be so reduced, that they could be all
provided for without creating any new loans—
( Hear, hear).—With regard to other points, it would
not be necessary for him to say anything at this time.
As to what the Noble Lord had said, that there was
no precedent of Parliament being prorogued without
a speech from the Throne, he pointed out the proro-
gation which took place in 1785, when some very
important propositions, relative to the trade with
Ireland, were under consideration ; and if Parlia-
ment continued to discuss any measure at the time
of the late prorogation, the business of Parliament
could not have been entered upon without the greatest
personal inconvenience to individuals. At present,
he should forbear making remarks on many other
topics alluded to by the Noble Lord, ..until the pro-
per time came for discussing them.
Lord HOLLAND assured the House that no No-
ble Lord was more indisposed than he was to intro-
duce any topic out of time on the present occasion.
He did not wish to embarrass Ministers; he would
not now go into any observation of the general state
of the country, but he conceived this was not an un-
fit opportunity for putting a few questions to the
Noble Earl opposite—questions whith were simple
in their nature, and capable of receiving a ready and
satisfactory answer—and even upon these topics he
would have forborne all discussion, but that the No-
ble Earl had made allusions to them in his speech.
But whilst he thus avowed his intention of meeting
the allusions of the Noble Earl, he reserved to him-
self a right of not following him through all his argu-
ments and assertions. He would not say a word now
of the general system of Government adopted by Mi-
nisters, or the beneficial alterations which might be
made in it ; but it occurred to him as a little odd that
the Noble Earl should say lie did not understand
what was meant by general alterations. To be sure,
it was natural enough for men who followed no
steady course, who to-day adopted one class of mea-
sures, and to-morrow abandoned them, to say " We
don't know what you mean by alterations.' He
(Lord Holland) would tell the Noble Earl what-the
country meant by the word, and the changes it eso
pected, and would have. They would have an Ad-
ministration strong in their confidence; they would
have that old-fashioned, perfect, and entire under-
standing between them and the Government restored,
which had been so long disused, and which his been
so totally unknown to the history of the Administra-
tions of the Noble Earl and his predecessors for a
long time back—(Hear, hear). The People would
have that change which his Noble Friend near him
had been contending for. But lie was not now go-
ing _to point out what these alterations should be—
that subject was one of too involved and serious a
nature, and for the present he should leave it un-
touched. But with regard to the Speech from the
Throne, however, there was one part of it which no
honest man could let pass over. The part to which
lie alluded was that in which our relations with fo-
reign States were touched upon. And here he was
not a little surprised to hear the country congratu-
lated, in the Speech from the Throne, because the
King had received assurances of peace and amity
from foreign Posers, and because his Majesty ex-
pressed that it was his first wish to preserve this
country in peace. But why congratulate the coun-
try for this ? What! were we to rejoice because the
foreign Potentates had not ordered our Sovereign to
attend them at Troppau or Layhach? Possibly the
expression, under other circumstances, would be taken
as one of course, in a Speech from the Throne • but,
under the present relations of Europe, when the liber-
ties of the South of Italy were mortally aimed at, it
looked suspicious. He would ask, were these Poten-,
tates content with spreadiug their troops and enlarging
their means oldiminishing the liberties of mankind ;
and aid they ihinit it enough to throw a sop to
the King of England, by saying we do not mean to

attack you ? Was such the situation of this country
in the scale of European Powers? Vas it to be borne.
that these Powers, insignificant till we raised them
into consequence—needy States, 'to whom we, by our
subsidies, wrung from the produce of our People,
gave subsistence—lack/enders, but for our forbear-
ance, in.letting them assume power and property—
should go to war against the liberties of a part of
Europe without consulting us, or giving us a voice
in the question ? The Noble Lord :liked of the im-
propriety of interference; but who was the wiser
from hearing his speech?—(Hear, hear). Certainly,
if arguments on abstract principles--on the pro-
priety or impropriety of interfering in particular
cases:---gave any satisfaction, there was quite enough
of them in the Noble Earl's speech. But why was
not the Noble Earl more explicit ? Why tell the
House that there were certain exceptions to the ge-
neral rule, when an interference could be justified?
and why not say in his speech, or put it into his Ma-
jesty's, whetheran not such iaterference was intended?
The Noble Earl might say so, for the Austrian Go-
vernment was bound by Treaty to inform the Eng-
lish Government of what measures were to be taken.
It was absurd to urge the reason that they were un-
willing to ;Evolve this country in a war, and it was
no less untrue that there was a necessity for putting
the question on that issue. For such was still the,
high situation in which this country stood, not-
withstanding the years of misrule—the difficulties
and extremities into which it had been driven by the
oppressive and ill-advised acts of the Noble Earl and
his predecessors, that the breath of its mouth would
dissuade the pusillanimous Monarch of Austria from
his crusade against the liberties of Italy. As a Go-
vernment, it has been for ages contemptible for its.
pusillanimity and feeble councils, added to which it
has a thousand petty interests to preserve with this
country, which it would be unwilling to hazard by
any resistance to the expressed wishes of the British
Government, A strong remonstrance might, there-
fore, have the effect of being a prevention of the war.
But the Noble Earl said the Government of this
country were averse from any interference with the
Austrian Government, which, in the result, might
possibly lead to a termination of those terms of peace'
and amity which at present existed. But what, in
' fact, was this interference, considering the relation
in which we stood with Austria: could such an inter-
ference be held to amount to a decimation of war?
Our debtors, the children of our bounty—coald not
we, who supported and upheld the needy State, foist
in a word of advice, without giving its Imperial and
pusillanimous Monarch offence ? The Noble Earl said,
Wbat could prove to Austria that we meant to give
her no countenance in her undertaking, stronger than
the fact that we have disbanded our armies, and re-
duced our military establishment ?" He had also
said, that with the exception of revolutionized France,
there was no other precedent on record which could
guide Ministers in the line of conduct which they
ought to pursue on the present occasion—and he
asked, could the present be likened to that case? It
could not, without doubt; and he (Lord Holland)
never meant to contend that Naples was as great as
France: but he recollected perfectly wel, that at
the period alluded to by the Noble Earl, even when
the Duke of Brunswick was making for Paris, the
same language was then held that was used at pre-
sent by Ministers. How shameful, then, was it not,
to evade the question by references to the conduct of
Parliament on former occasions? It was making
,his country a party to the infamous designs of the
Continental Potentates; and, in good truth, it would
be more manly, and more like Englishmen, to take
part at once with these very generous conquerors,
than meanly and pitifully to say, a We do not ap-
prove of your interference." It was much better to

deal openly with them. But, in truth, this country
had a claim to 'demand an explanation, on account
of the Treaty to which she was a party amongst other
nations. And what, after all, would be the effect of
this cowardly double dealing ? What inference would
Europe draw from it? Would it be honourable or
dishonourable to England? Europe knows, at least
so the House is told, that the English Government
is unfriendly to the schemes of Austria; but what
says Europe to this ? That England, once powerful-
and respected abroad, still preserves so much of her
original public virtue, as to protest against the de-
signs of Austria; but impoverished, reduced, and
ruined, by frequent and unsuccessful wars, she dares
not support her dissent by force of arms; she gives
us wishes, but she has no money to give"—(Hear).
And at this moment a verse occurred to him, which
looked apposite enough, but which ::e was almost
ashamed to repeat in such an assembly as this. It
was, however, the production of a Poet, whose wot ks,
it was said, might be laid on a Lady's toilet. The
Poet says, humorously enough—

" The Doctor understood the call,
But had not always where-withal"—(.4 laugh).
But with regard to the relation in which this country
stood with the Austrian Government, he (Lord 1101-,
land) recollected, that so far back as the 12th of
June, 1815, a treaty was entered into between the''
Governments of Austria and Naples, the first clause
in which, according to the admission of the Neapo-
litan Minister himself, contained a stipulation, by
which the King of Naples bound himself in a secret
article, not to make any changes in the form of got
veinment against Monarchy, and to discountenance
the establishment of any institutions which might
prove dangerous to the system of government then
existing in the Imperial Italian States. What that
system was, these Powers well knew, and he sup-
posed so did the Noble Earl too—(A laugh).—
Now, if the existence of such an article had been
communicated to Ministers, what could be more
criminal than the boasts which they made, or
what more absurd than their reasoning as to the par-
ticular instances in which interference was justifiable?
Was it not the g:ossest double dealing with the House
and the Country, thus to be arguing in theory, when
they were sensible of the fact, that Treaties had been
actually entered into- for the destruction of the inde-
pendence of the smaller States ? He hopetlb for the
glory of the country, that no such article had been
communicated to Ministers ; and yet, on the other
hand, what idea would Europe have of the con-

tempuble position of England, when they,saw her
Allies adopting principles without her concurrence,
or rather, which she was known to disclaim ? Why,
in common sense, could not a:remonstrance to Austria
be made in this way We see you are going .to
war, ergo, you have lots of cash, or the money which

you have not yet yon are going to borrow in Eng-1
land, and there you must pay a high interest for it.
Now it happens thit you are our debtors ; be good
enough, therefore, to satisfy us before you set about
the expensive and laudable design of freeing the Ita-
lians from the form of Government they have chosen.
Be just before you are generous, and before you free
Naples, condescend to pay your debts"—(Laughter).
Now, perhaps, this was putting. the thing in tot) ludi-
crcus a light, but really the whole was such a mock
tragedy, and, by the way, the part which Messieurs
the Ministers played in it, was not the most flattering
in the world. lie was reminded on this occasion of
a short passage in the renowned Tragedy of Tom
Thumb the Great, in which the flatterers of that cele-
brated personage advise him to follow up some ex-
travagant project he had taken into his.head, and
their advice was exactly what the servility of many
of the smaller Powers of Germany would give to the
Emperor of Austria at the present day. His flatterers
thus addressed Tom Thumb—
" Great Sir, the purpose of your soul pursue!"
But while such advice was given, he would have the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Liverpool) say.. to his.
Majesty the Emperor—
" Great Sir, I have a small account with you r

(Hear, and laughter).—This be thought would prove
a most effectual remonstrance, and an excellent hint
to the Emperor. His belief was, that Ministers did
not wish for a war on the part of Austria against
Naples. But it was not enough that they should con-
fine themselves to the niele circumstance of not
wishing it. They should remonstrate, and say to
Austria, on the part of their Sovereign—" I disap-
as I disapprove of any war with prove of this war,
any nation founded on the principles of such inter-
ference in its internal concerns. I disapprove
sof a
war against a nation with which I am connected by
treaties, and in which you cannot engage without
destroying the principles on which we have actech"—
Such ought to be the language which the Ministers
of the Crown should hold to Austria, and he was
satisfied 'it would not be without the proper effect.
He did not know what papers the Noble Lord oppo-
site might be likely to produce on this subject ; but
if it should appear from them that this country had
ceased to be on terms of amity and perfectly good
understanding with Naples, in consequence of the
late change in her Government, he would maintain
that the Government of this country had not done
its duty. A word from us against her present pro--
ceedings would, he was satisfied,•be. sufficient for
Austria; and, if our sentiments were firmly and de.
cisively expressed on this occasion, she durst pot. re-,
fuse her concurrence. It was, therefore, nothing Put
idle mockery to say to the People of England, that
the Government wished for peace, if the yecessary.
steps were not taken to ensure it. He was sure that
the Noble Duke opposite (the Duke of ‘Vell.pg.ton)
must have felt (though none of his Colleagues.had
dared so to express themselves) mortified and disap-
pointed at finding that the Spanish Constitution,(and
here he begged not to be understood as meaning to
say, that the Spanish Constitution was without de-
fects—he knew it had defects; but if he store a sub-
ject of Spain, where it originated, or of Naplei, where
it was adopted, lie would shed the last drop of his
blood in defence of it, with all its defects, rather
than suffer it to be wrested from him by any of the
armed despots of Troppau), but he was about to ob-
serve, that the Noble Duke must have felt mortified
and indignant; at finding that this Spanish Constitu-
tion, which had been established, he might say, un-
der his auspices; and, however much he might differ
from the Noble Duke on many great political ques-
tions, yet he felt it but justice to him to say, that this
I country was not more indebted to his valour and
skill as a General, than to the wisdom he evinced on
several occasions in his negociations with Spain, and
in conciliating the good-will of that nation towards
us, but he acted on those occasions with the very Go-
vernment, and under that very Constitution, which,'
as he had observed before, the Noble Duke most
have since felt mortified and indignant at finding the
despots of Troppau so violently opposed. It was said,
that these revolutions were effected by the army: lie
was not a friend to the principle, as a general one,
that they were the fittest instruments for new model-
ling a Government. He was too much attached to
the principles of the Revolution of 168 S to adopt
such a doctrine; but he confessed he was glad of,
the mode of* change in the recent instances, as it
gave another proof, that those who leant entirely on
spears for their support, would sometimes feel the
wound in their own sides !—(l./ear, hear, hear).—
II was not now a matter of consideration how the
revolution in Naples had been effected. One thing
was certain—it was a bloodless one; but if it were
•as bloody as it was peaceable—if it were as little
calculated for the peculiar advantage of that nation,
as he was satisfied it was conducive to their better
government, still he would denounce the principle of
foreign interference with the internal affairs of any na-
tion, and still less could he support such interference
when made by an armed force. But k might be said
that we had no right to offer our advice to Austria.
He maintained we had. Austria was our ally; and
was he to be told that if he saw his friend about to
plunge into the commission of some atrocious crime,
or to commit some cruel act, that he was to withhold
all advice until the deed was done? The advice
would be then too late, and he should not act the part
of a true friend if he did not give the advice while
its adoption might be of use. He would then say to
Ministers, •' Give your advice to Austria to desiA ;
and if your advice be reasonable, she dare not refuie
you." But he had heard it said, that though Austria
could not expect any direct assistance from this
country, site still would calculate upon the moral
assistance of England. Now this he could not too
strongly condemn, and it was a great reason with
him for maintaining the necessity of having the most
explicit avowal of the disapprobation of this Go-
vernment. If it were once knoen that the British
Government were warmly opposed to any hostile
proceedings towards Naples, it would soon have the
effect of depriving Austria of that moral assistance'
which'she might look for in other quarters, in the
absence of a positive disavowal. Let England say
to her ally Austria, "I say that your interference is
improper, and in no one way will I give it any sup.
pore or sanction." It was for these reasons that he
disapproved of the language of the Speeth ii‘kof
the Address, as equivocal. It gave their Lordships
no pfarmatum on subjects the most important,' and
„Wjuch, for aught that was . said of them, it might as

I
well not have touched. As the Speech, wad
the Address, gave no information on the
subject to which he had alluded he would
questions to the- Noble Earl allude;,
and
i.hoped, for the information of their Loed,hi,
would answer them. lie would wish to be
whether our Ambassador or Agent at
still the accredited Agent to the Neapoli
mentrand if so, whether he had received i
to assure that. Government that this e
not disturb the state of affairs there, or gis,
port for sanction whafsoeier-to:-aty such
by any other Power, on the principle of ,
in her internal airangements? - His nett
was, whether the secret 'article of the Treaty
to which he had before alluded, was cumrr
to his Majesty's Ministers ; and if so, ,v.:s it
up by any remonstrance On our part, and if it
'not then communicated, wheller
they became acquainted with it, renwastrated
thought they were bound to do) against any'
in which this country was concerned centaiy•
ciples which we disavowed? His next qr
whether within the last year, the Noble,
applied for the repayment of the Amtrian L.
any part of it, or of the interest which we
receive from Austria—that interest of which
once talked so confidently 2—,(lfear, hear).
The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought it tt;
Bible to give answers to questions of such
upon so short a notice. Indeed, 'he did eat • ,
know -how he could answer them without gotiostit•
a review of the general principles•of Gt. wernatst.„
He thought he had been erplitit enough, assail
views of Government, and consider ing the •
which drew forth his remarks, it occnrred
that enough had been said for the occasion.
no hesitation, however, in saying, that if at aly
cure time the Noble Baron.wonld make a
the subject, he (Lord Liverpool) would
meet, and give him all necessary infoinrati
subject. He did no; now think he ought
upon to go into details.
Lord HOLLAND was still of opinion that th
questions were questions of fact, -and that tile.;
capable of an easy answer.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL could give
on so complicated a subject, without going
view of the general .•pciliti;tit! dies G:'-verunient.
Lord HOLLAND congratulated the country,

--so entangled were the public affair s, that a
• question could not be answered without ua
the whoje'sy-stem,
' Lord' ELLENBOROtGH had one itp
put to the Ndbfe Bar9n.' He was in raptunts
magic receiptior the prevention of a %Ira,'
putting the country to the expense of mosey
*blood. •.Buy it appeared to him, that the
way of aAr,ing:a debt frolp. an Emperor, w,
by a Gefreal.at tho'hep,cl.6l an • army—(A/ax
He was glad thaptiswNoble Lord at the hez::,
Treasury had promised *the cutrespondena„
hitherto the speeclfes
„were .meagre •of imorl
His question to the K
able Baron was this.:4,
words-would he.shape the remonstrance that
work 'such Magic ?";—(.4 laugh).
Lord HOLLAND did not feel himself
to answer the Noble Lord's questiOn..
generally .upon the influence which. this
must have on the Councils Of Austria, when i.
seen that this latter calculated so much upon r
sistance; on this ground, therefore, he thougi
expression of a wish by the People of England.
be entitled to great weif;ht.
Lotd ELLENBOIeOUGH.—..,, I cook
the House, that whatever the Noble Lord
have us think of the debastmAnt iota which.
tion has been sunk by' the acts of Ministers fords
last 25 years,- •yet it possesses moral imports's
enough in the eyes ',of Europe, that the sinfieew
pression of its will it Tantamount to law"- (her}
Lord • HOLLAND denied that he had said 50(.4
(.4 lath). The Noble Lind then repeated hi, aps
meat, loundcd generally ()flour relations with Anna
The LORD CHANCELLOR could not helps:•
marking that, supposing one. of the Noble Baca
who had just addressed then% was Austria audit
other Feigland,it would be difVcult to prevent that
interfering with each wher.
• The question •was then pat on the Address, whick
was agieed to wifliZlat a divibion.—Adjoutoedut
Quarter to Eight o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
•
At a quarter• before two, the SPEAKeI. e:.t.,red the
at this Cline tilt re were about 150 Alemhers a,Fembled.
few minutes .:?er, the discharge of cannon annoinced'
aesrv's approach ; and at two o'clock the Black Rod Al
the House to the of Peers, to hear to: Speech
Irons the Throne—(F,r s•htch see.tbe torts).—ln lees
minutes the Sci.k,Eru 'returned, but did :lot take the o'
four o'clock.

On taking the Chair, the SPEAK/tit informed the Halm
lie had, ptirsusitt to :VI of ratliament, issued Writs k
election of Alembers tor the fol:siwing: pier. s: C.r
common, in the room of A.-French, Esq. for St. Athan's
room of W. T. !lobar's, Esq. ft:!d for Yarmouth, in the
Wight, in the room of T. Broadhead,' Esq.
Several Members were sworn, and took their place
The. Clandestine Outl..;wry Bill was bro•eght in, cad re:di
first time.
• :THE QUEEN.

Lord A. ITA MILTON gatre notice, that he should on Fall
next submit a motion to the House on the subject of trustisi
the Queen's name to 'the Liturgy.
Mr. WE,TrIERELL wished to say a few %vortical
the subject of this notice—(No, no! Order, order 11.
The SPEAKER was convinced the Hon. Mutts:
would seethe • improprieWsol.offering any ober"'
tions on a mere notice of motion.
Mr. TIEENEY understood the Hon. Member onhl

intended to make some few observations on a sabjecs
.bearing on this motion. If he was not now alloweJl.
make those observations, when.eould he matte thew.
Lord COILERE.4OH.s'aid, if the lion. Gentlh
man's intention was that which the Right llne•Gto
tleman had• stated, though it 'would be bet all
Gentlemen. ,should be allowed tp.eiplain thew 04
intehtions, he might make. tlictu.to-. morrow.
Mr. BANKS thought thoOon. Ventlensan should
not proceed now; it shras custorMtry first to take lute
consideration ilie-413etai fiottilthe. Throne, provips!
any.
•7- . •
to anylet.businels. •
The SPEAKEIL again said, he understood the Haw
11Ie:hber intended to .make-some Obiervations coat
notice, bad iqsluced him to jnierpose.
• Mr. WliTfiEitti.Lsaid he was abOut to makei
preliminary motion foi Papers upon the subjectW.,.
.th e- eClu %ion •of the 'Queen's 'name from the Morel
and he would now move fur thy=

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