Star.
London, England, 1828-04-19 00:00:00

NkW SOUTH WAIFS

Sr JAMES MACIN 10511 pte.ented a Petition,
most mime.. u,l) and respectably sig..eo, flora a Meet-
ing which had been convent d in New S•eith Wales by
the Sheriff • f the Colony. and with the sanction and
pet mission of .he Alagistiacy ; :he isi ayer of which was
t..t the inliot..ction ir.b, that St-titement or a system of
peeul at rept escntat.on, and of the ti 141 by Jury. Ac•
cording to the most credible accounts, the too Austra-
lian. Colonies coetaitied toget!ier about 55,000 inhabi-
tants, of %hoot from 30,000 to 35 000, and perhaps
mere, were lee •ettlers. Tile animal revenue of the
Government was aboat 60.0001.—and the annual pro.
duce of the land and labour was supposed to exceed
800,0001. Now be knew of no instance in the history
of the B itish Colonies, it. which a Colouy of this im-
portance, with so large a portion of its population na-
tural (see hunt Eugli.h subjects, had been denied the
enjoyment of these two uudoub.eJ ancient and imme.
moi lel birthrights of Englishmen. In saying this, he
spoke of such as were actual!), English Colonies. To
some of out Settlemen s. such as dense, for example, un,
the Conlin-nt of Asia, these institutions might he of
doubtful benefit, and could nut be applied as to British
'Colonies, strictly speaking.
Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON would not now go into
any detailed discus•ii.n either of the principle, or of the
facts, which had been opened by his Right Honourable
and Le4rned Friend opposite. A much better oppos.,
tunity would speedily arise, when the Bull telative to
New South Wales should come o.i in its regular course.
When his Right Honourable and Lean ed .end, how-
ever, said that at.out 85.000 out of the 55,000 intiabi
tants of the two Australian Colonies were free settlets,
he must either posse.. much better info, oration than his
Majery's Gusting' ent had received upon this subject,
he had been egregiously imposed upon. By the last
returns which the Government had received, the Euro-
pean p3pulation of the two Colonies was not 5.5.000,
but 49,000, of a bons 18,000 were free settlers, and the
len Milder, being the great majority, consisted of per-
sons who. having lortetted their civil rights, had been
sent thither in tl.e way of punishment, in putstrance of
sentences under which they were still suffering.--(Hear,
hear). When a more eligib:e opportunity should arise,
he (Mr. Huskisson) would state the grounds upon which
he considered that to communicate these two birth
rights or privileges of Englishmen, to the Colonies in
question, under present circumstances, would, so far
from plowing a blessing to them, involve them in all
possible mischief and confusion.
Mr. BRIGHT observed, that there were three sorts
of settlers, one of whom the Right Honourable Secre-
tary appeared to have oveulooked. There were, first,
those who had settled in the colony as fiee settlers;
secondly, those who, being originally - convicts, had
since become free, and were entitled to be so considered
and dealt with to all intents and purposes ; and, thirdly,
those who were still buffeting the penalty which had
been inflicted on them for offetices committed here. The
calculation of the Right Honourable Secretary must
certainly have excluded the large class of persons who
bad b.come free subsequently to their transpottation.
Ms. Secretary HUSKISSON, in explanation, ob-
served, that so far from this being the case, he had ex-
pressly included in the 18.000 free settlers all those who
in the colony were called emancipatists—all those who,
either by pardon from the Crow,. or expiry of the term
of their transportation, had become free—(Heir, hear).
The Petition was brought up, read, sad ordered to be ;tinted. .
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then row to present. a'
Petition.. Which set forth a case of singular hiudsbip and

injustice. It wds from a Mr. Myles O'fteilly, of Dublin,l
who complained of the loss of a. considerable sum of
money, in cohsequence 'id certain transactions which
had occurred at Madras. :The claim to which this
Petition related, had been put into his hands several
years ago, and be then advised the Petitioner, as he was
in the habit of advising all private parties, who were
proceeding in any way against public bodies, to adopt,
in the first place, every quiet and pacific means, every
conciliatory measure, which might advance his claim,
without lot necessity of making application to a Court
of Law. On the present occasion, he still entertained
every confidence in the liberality and justice of the East
India CoMpany ; • and be earnestly hoped, that that
Hon. Body would see that the claim now made, if it
were not in its nature a legal claim, was yet beyond
doubt a most powerful one upon their equity and
justice. It seemed that a clause in an Act of Parlia-
ment, passed in the 39th and 40th of George the Trird,
directed the King's Courts in India, to grant letters of
administration to the Registrars of thcse Courts of the
go ids and personal effects of individuals dying intestate
within their several jurisdictions. Colonel O'Reilly,
the brother of the Petitioner, after serving tt.e East
In is Co t• pa ty with distinguished merit and re, Station,
died in Ifitti, possessed of a small property in value—
abrut 3,0001. sterling. That property, as he died in-
testate, should have come to the Petitioner. The Regis-
trar of the Court, at Madras took nut letters of admi-
nistration to the whole of this personal estate, and vested
the proceeds in the Company's trea ury at Madras.
N w here it seemetkimpossible to deny that the Cum.
patty, through their own treasury, became, in some
sort, a guarantee for the security of the funds. so in-
vested with them. Soon efter this Mr. Ricketts, the
registrar, whose affairs had unfortunately become ex-
ceedingly embarrassed, went to! the treasury at. Ma-
dras, and took out the larger pait on the whole of this
investment. He subsequently died; no;sasseta appeared
to be available to his creditors, and this som of $,OOOl.
was lost.—(Hear). But it appeared that the 3,0001.
were paid by the treasury to Mr. Ricketts, the tegistrar,
ithout any order or authority of Court•whatever. I
(Hear). Tao Learned Friends of his (Sir J. Macin-
tosh's) then sat as Judges on the Bench, and they (Sir
Thomas Strange and Sir Edward Stanley) did state it
to be their clear opinion that by this-act of their trea-
sury the Honourable Company had been made liable.
If their treasurer had thus made himself responsible as
a trustee for the interess of parties whose funds he held,
and who were themselves at such a vast distance, he
was surely bound to have exercised that ordinary degree
of vigilance and caution which should have restrained
him from paying out any money so deposited without
an express order of Court. Whether the Company war
in strictness legally liable to the Petitioner or not might
be a question very difficult of determination. But at all
event., in fairness, honesty, and equity, the Petitioner
had a claim which he (Sir J. Macintosh) could seartely
allow himself to doubt, that the known liberality and
f iirness of the Company in its dealings would recognise
arid affirm. In tt e correspon 'trice, too, which had taken
place on this subject, the Company's Secretary, Mr.
Dart, had admitted to the Petitioner the two important
facts of the iiivertment of the money, and of its having
.been paid out again to the Registrar without any order
of C. urt. It the spirit and intention of the law had been
carded into eff,ct riy advertising the death of this -Gen.
,tleinau. and the amount of his property, the greater
past ot it would have been recovered. He hope,' the
mend in of this case ono'.] induce the Duectoi is of the
East India Company to act with their usual liberality'
, towards the relatives ol
Mr. DENISON mentioned a .similar instance of
hardship in'the ca-e of aft iend tit his oa n• by the name
of S.nciair. The circumstances of that case ot.e now
before the India laid upon Peti ion, and he hoped it
would receive a favourable attention.

M•. WYNN said, this was a question of great mo-
ment magnitude, and affe,ting a great 'somber of
per,or.s. He knew that in the case of Mr. RI kett.,
the most unpleasant con•rqu.r ces had resat:tt•J to
many individuals from the am urn of debts which he
left behind him, which* was not less than 4'J 0001. He
thought some alteration in the system, a. regarded the
appointment of R-gistrars, would be beneficial ; at least
there ought to be some adequate security given upon
the appointment of that office for the due administra-
tion of his duties, and steps were now taking to that
effect. It would be advisable also, that the accounts of
a deceased Registrar should be made up with greaterl
expedition Chap under the present practice.
Mr. COURTENAY wishei to state to the House,
with reference to the Board of Controul, to which he
had the honour to belong, that Mr. O'Reilly's case
had never been laid before that Board. It had, he be-
lieved, been sent before the Directors of the E ast India
Corns any, but it had never found its way to the Board
of Controul. With i egard to Mi. Sinclair, the case was
different. The circumstances of his case had been
represented to the Board of Controul, and would re-
ceive the fullest attentims. With regard to the case of
Mr. O'Reilly, he would say as Le had before said in that
House, in a case of great importance, that wherever
these was a wrong there ought to be remedy—and there-
fore it was that he was glad the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman oppos'te had brought this mattes forward.
Mr. L. FOSTER hoped this appeal would not be
without effect. It was a material circumstance in la-
, vour of the claims of the relatives of Mr. O'Reilly,
that when he died his property was in the hands of the
Company, who stood, therefore, in the light of guar-
dians to them, and ought to feel that there was a
stronger claim upon them than one merely founded
upon liberality.
Mr. LINDSAY thought it must be obvious to the
House, after what had passed, that the Company could
not be held responsible for the loss complained of.—
Over the King s Court in Madras the-Company had no.
controul.

Mr. TRANT did not agree with the Hon: Gentleman
who had just sat down, that the Company were so fully
exempt from responsibility in this case. If there had
been neglect on the part of one of their officers, he con-
ceis ed they ought to feel liberally disposed towards the
sufferers.

After a fcw words from Sr J. Mac:ninon, the Petition was
brought up; and, on the question that it be read, after a few ob-
servations from Mr. C. W. %us,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served, that be Should not have said a word upon the
subject but for the idea started, that the charge in.
cutred upon this subject should be .defrayed by the
Government, and, therefore, lest his silence whilst
present might be construed into acquiescence, he.pro-
tested against any such idea. He was decidedly
adverse to its coming out of the funds of the country,
but if the charge were substantiated, and that ieniune-
ration were to be at all made, it should come out of the
territorial funds of the East India Company.
Sir JAMES MACINTOSH agreed in that view.
The Petition was then read and laid upon the table,
and, after some discussion, Sir JAMES Mactwrosti gate
notice that he would move to have it rehired to the
consideration of a Select Committee on Thursday next.
Mr.STANLET presented a Petition from Clitheroc,

in Lancastite, complaining of the managevric.,
Court for the Recovery of. Smolt Debts; and
plaining of the condi:inn of the Gaols of that '
Mr. Secretary PEEL 'aid, that in one of
which he had introduced, a prnvi'ion wat
which afforded facility for sending prisoner,
local gaols to the county gaols. By paying
iii n of expenses, this would be found Imp,
ferable to the gaols of small local jurisdict
small gaols, where there were only two or
soners, there was likelihood of an inspection
4ttended to ac in the larger gaols. This was
attended with inci;ovenience ; for instance,
county gaols were sixty or .seventy miles di:
the places where the offence was committed.
vision, however, could be frequently acted

advantage.
Mr. F. LEWIS laid upon the table of the Hove the
Mr. Jacob on Foreign Agriculture, presented by him ►

of Trade.
Colonel DAVIES presented a Petition from Worcester
of the Catholic Claims.

PEW 110VTH WALES SILL
Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON moved the second
New South Wales 13111.

Sir J. MACINTOSH gave notice of his ,
recommend the introduction of two provision
Bill, which would render it a more complete
He would not at present enter fully into the
in favour of such a measure, but take an oi
of doing so, on the motion that the Speak(
Chair; and he would then move his propositi,
of, instruction to a Committee of the whole
That proposition would comptise nothiPg
an extension of the principle of the Bill.
measures he would propose, were the. inter
Trial by Jury in criminal and.civil cases,
troduction of some Members into the Connor
South Wales on the principle cf popular
tion. He would not stickle for the qualifica:
Members—he was willing that it should
qualification in the first instance, as he me,
for an experiment. He would say, that as
lification he in the. first instance proposed,
should be 501.; or he would even say 100 i. -
His chief object was to establish the comm
the principle of popular representation. H•
that this Bill did not contain a provision f(
Jury, which a former Bill did. The nth'
and Learned Gentleman concluded by statik
would select the opportunity of p►oposing
sitions at the time at which he stated, as
enable him to secord them (which he was anziot
on the Journals of the House.

Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON would not
the discussion which the Right Honourable •
Gentleman promised at a future period.
boa ever to state, that in this Bill the detail
ministration of law were left in a great (It
discretion of the local audio' ities,of the colt
impossible for the Govetnment at hone
mite'' ihtd thnbe details. With respect
lion in this Bill' of a provision for Trial
admitted that such a provision was in a
empowering the summoning of Juries
Sessions ; but from the scattered state of
lati4 n, and from other difficulties which
themselves, that provision• could not be
practical and beneficial effect. The ti
all who had been co.oulted upon-this subject
that, in the present state of the Colony,
by Jury could not be wisely or safety
He would recommend the Right lion. at
Gentleman to be govetn:d by an expressioi
had used belote in the course of this eveni:
not " to go too fast" in legislation, lest tt
stead of intended benefit might ensue. He
Imam anticipate the discussion afiticipar
Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. CALVERT eirtessed his doubt that
New &Anil Wales. was advanced to 11)
which would SPAltAtil and justify the int,
the measures recommended by lis Risk
Learned Friend (Sir J. Macintosh.)
Mr. BRIGHT considered this a most
subject. He considered tie present Bill ui
in many respects. The Colony was consii
entitled to those salutary institutions a hich
Bill proposed to withhold from it. Resisted
too, from the Colonies, when the impniti
Colonies was considered, and the large i
valved in some of those appeals, he thong:
Council, before which these appeals were hi,
be differently constituted from whit it at pi
He thought the present Bill, if passed i
should, at all events, be a temporary measui
gether, he was adverse to the principle
and to several of its provisions, and woui
opportunity promised by the Right Hon. at
Gentleman (Sir J. Macintosh) of more fully
objections to it.

Mr. Secretary HUSICISSON denied that
passed, Parlianorat would be deprived of r
future interference on the subject. As to
of inspection, one of•tbe clauses of the -1111
that every law passed in the Colony should
fore Parliament in the first Session after its
With regard to the taking iway of the if
appeal, when it was considered that that
from the Supreme Court to the Military 6(
could not be supposed to be of any great
Colony.

Mr. SPRING RICE agreed with the Ht
for Bristol, that it would be desirable to mai
sure a temporary rather than a permanent
Colony of South Wales must be considered
light ; first, as a penal Colony, and then as
increasing wealth and importance, and which
be dealt with as a society of free, unpolluted
course not subject to that peculiar legislar
befitted a penal Colony. Such were the
vantages of the Colony, that he bad seen man'
from gentlemen, who had been tranbported
siting their friends in this country to joist
evident that the time must come when
Wales could no longer be considered as a
ny; and, therefore, when the uhi le course
ment and legislation with tespect to it, mei
a change. It was on that account that he
meastite to be ;temporary one, in order tl
enlarged and liberal course might in future
Colonel DAVIES observed, that the wi
be prepared for the Colony, to assume the rai
by a d fferent constitution of the frame of
it would be elevated. Wl,en the fine slim;
other advantages of the Colony were cot
hold out a removal to it as a punishment ss
mockery. Nothing vas more comma's th,
victs, who had sF•rved out their time and ac
perty there, to scud accounts of their happir
friends in this cou•:try, simulating them
mission of riff,tnces that they might enjoy thi
_vantages. Whether, therefore, as affecting
of the lower utdets, or as affecting the perm;
ref ity of the Colony, the subject was one