Star.
London, England, 1828-04-30 00:00:00

TRIDIDLT SOCUCTIZI4

Mr. HOBHOUSE presented tour Petitions from different So-
cieties against the Friendly Societies' BilL
Mr. BRIGHT recommended that the evidence taken before
the Committee should be printed, for the information of the country,
and the Bill abandoned for the present. The Bill, he Mier:di
I was brought in with the best intention; but the parties concerned
should be reconciled to its
Mr. HOBHOUSE concurred in what had fallen from his Hon.
Friend. Certain he was that these Societies would never be re-
conciled to the arbitration clause.

Mr. BERNAL opposed the BilL
The Petitions were referred to the Committee.
Mr. DENISON presented a Petition from a Society in Chandos
street, against the Friendly Societies BA—Ordered to lie on the
Table.—The same Honourable Masses& presented a Petition from
Mr. Sinclair, complaining of a loss sustained by him through the
insolvency of the Register of Bombay. This case stood exactly on
the same ground as that of Mr. O'Kelley, which was brought
under the notice of the House some time back by the Member for
Knaresborough (Sir J. Macintosh), and he should propose to refer
this Petition to the Committee, which his Hen. Friend proposed to
move for.
Colonel BAILEY said he was ready to show that the Company
was not answerable fir these losses, as chimney was never in their
Treasury. He would net oppose the Committee when it shield be
moved for, as the Companyhued that the subject should be in-
vestigated.—The Petition was ordered to be ted.
frail:
Mr. W. W YNN prevepted a Petition . the Faculty of Me-
dicine of London, complaining of the went of lities to the acquire-
ment of anatomical knowledge.—Referred the Committee.
The same Ham Mamma presented a Petition from the Maltsters
of county of Montgomery, against MI last Malt Act, en

another from the Wool-growers of the same county, praying for a
Duty on Ftweign Wool.
Mr. H. EDEN gave notice that be should, on Thersd ty IVA
bring forward a motion relative to the Bankrupt Law.
Sir T. GOOCH presented a Petition from the Farmers of the
East of Suffolk, praying for a Duty or► Foreign Wool.
Mr. FY LER gave notice that he would, on Thursday next,
present two Petitions, one from the Silk Weavers of Coventry;
and the other from the Silk Weavers of Spitalfields, relative to the

Silk Trade.
Mr. CURTEIS presented a Petition from the Eastern parts of
Sussex, complaining of the low prise of agricultural prodeee.
Mr. P. THOMSON presented a Petition from the Inhabitants
of Mile End Old Town, complaining of the conduct of Mr. Baines
and Mr. Windsor, two Magistrates of the County of Middlesex, in
the appoitpment of Overseers, and In refusing to confirm the nomi-
nation of those selected by the Inhabitants of the District.—

Ordered to be printed.
Mr. BERRA L gave notice that he would, on Thursday next,
present a Petition from the Carpenters of London.
Mr. Secretary PEEL restated Petitions from the Medical
Practitioners of Bradford. In Yorkshire, and of Halifax, praying,
for further facilities in the pursuit of Anatomical Studies.—Re-

[erred to the Committee.
On the motion of Lord Joint Roans, the Leeds' Amendments
to the Test and Corporation Acts Mere ordered to be printed.--
Os Friday next he should move that the Amendments be taken

into consideration.
The Noble Lord at the same time presented a Petition from
Monmouth, and another from Dunfermline, against the Benefit

Societies' Bitt.
Mr. COURTENAY said he should, at the proper time, he able
to show that in the introduction, the progress, and the withdrawal

of the Bill, he acted as became him.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was quite ready to do justice
to the goodness of the Honourable Gentleman's intentions.—Re-
ferred to the Committee on the Bill
Sir JOHN SEBRIG HT informed the House that the Standing
Orders had not been complied with in relation to the Bill for build-
ing a new Gaol at St. Alban's. He proposed, therefore, that the
usual notices should be posted up throughout the county.
A desultory conversation took place on the subject between Mr.
N. CALVERT, Lord Avrecoar, Mr. Alderman SWIM, and Mr.

CALC RAM
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no division took
place.
On the motion of Mr. C. W. WYNW. the Report on the Election
Acts Consolidation Bill was brought up and received, and several

Amendments were agreed to.
SETTLEMENT BY HIRING.
Mr. P. M'QUEEN moved the second reading of
the Settlement by Hiring Bill. The Hon. Member took
a review of the Laws of Settlement; he stated that he
shortly expected a Report would be made from the
Committee which is sitting on the subject. The prin-
cipal difficulty which the Hon. Member had to encoun•
ter was the correspondence which had taken place. He
had endeavoured to arrange it so as to put the House
in possession of the state of the country in respect of
the settlement of the poor. He had obtained returns
from almost every Parish, from which he had selected
two, chiefly because he could rely on them.
Mr. CURTEIS seconded the motion. He thought
it very desirable that some fixed standard should be
decided upon by Parliament for the regulation of wages.
Mr. BENETT said, that, as a friend to the Poor
Laws, he could not support the Bill. He thought the
Poor Laws absolutely necessary, in the present state of
the manufacturing classes in England. He thought it
desirable to assimilate the Poor Laws of England, in
some respects, to those of Scotland, particularly in to
spect to the means of obtaining settlements by hiring.
In Scotland, three years service entitled a man to a
settlement. It would be cruel to deprive a man, who
resided, perhaps, twenty years in a parish, of any claim
to relief there, and to send him a distance of one or two,
hundred miles, to a parish where there might be no
provision made for his reception. He entreated the
Hon. Member to give the House some time to considet
the subject, which most be.ackaawjedsed to be one a(
the greatest importance.
Mr. S.' BOURNE did not think the Honourable
Member's Bill an attack upon the Poor Laws. In his
opinion it bad little bearing one way or the other upon►
that system. Perhaps the best title to settlement would
be a three or five years' service. A closer assimilation of
the English to the Scotch law on this subject might be
desirable. It was not to be imagined that if the Hon.
Member's proposition were agreed to, that it would';
diminish the number of persons receiving relief from the'
poor rates. Neither did it follow that its ,pkion
would greatly lessen the expense of litigation. H.
thought patties should be entitled to settlements in con-
sequence of service. If the Bill was passed it would
have the effect of making anew distribution of paupers;
and personal property would pay less towards the poor
rates than at present. It was difficult to examine the
subject in all its bearings, and dangerous to legislate
without doing so. He was aware the present measure
came before the House strengthened by the recommen-
dation of a Committee conversant with the subject, yet
he did not think be should have done his duty had he
not stated his opinion of the inutility of the measure.
Mr. SYKES opposed the Bill ; first, because it was
not preceded by any Report of a Committee; and, se-
condly, because it was an isolated measure.
Colonel WOOD supportei the Bill, because the Bill
did not deprive any man of a settlement, and because
it devised a better mode of obtaining a settlement than
that which was fixed by the existing laws. He was sure
the House would not consent to any general alteration
in the Poor Laws; and as he thought they required
considerable improvement, he thought it best to effect
improvement gradually.
Mr. R. COLBORNE observed, that although be en-
tertained doebte-asa to the expediency of the measure
now before the House, he felt inclined to give his vote
in favour of the second reading. One of the principal
points in its favour was, that it would diminish
litigation —a very fruitful source of parish expendi-
ture. It would also, perhaps, induce farmers to domi-
cile their servants—a system which could not be too
strictly followed, because %%hen servants were sent away
after their day's labour had terminated, they commonly
spent their nights at public-houses, or in some manner
equally prejudicial. It also tended materially to weaken
the attachment of master and servant, if the latter knew
that he was to be dismissed at the expiration of a year.
Mr. LEICESTER supported the Bill, because he
thought it would improve the condition of the labouring
classes. He was glad the Honourable Member had not
attempted to make any sweeping change in the Poor
Laws, which, in order to be improved effectually, must
be amended gradually.
Mr. N. CALVERT supported the motion, and de-
clared his opinion that the evil called loudly for some
remedy in the nature of that proposed by the Hon.l
Member, and the best might be derived from discussion. I
Mr. MONCK contended that this proposition went
only to a recurrence to the ancient law, and he should
therefore support the second reading. He thought the'
measure calculated to produce more circumspection
and prudence amongst the poor.
Mr. CRLPPS said that he was not so sanguine in his
expectations of the good to be derived from the mea-
sure, but he should vote for the second reading, in the
hope that deliberate discussion would free it from many
objections which he now saw.
Lord ALTHORP thought the Bill would remove
a great deal of the difficulty which labourers at present
encountered, by getting permanent employment. Under
the law as it stood, litigation and perjury were encou-
raged, and he thought the operation of the Bill would
tend to diminish both. It was most • desirable that

every man in England should have a settlement, to
which he could resort in case of distress. On these

grounds he would vote for the second reading.
Mr. PORTMAN thought the Bill would diminish
litigation, for which reason he would vote for the secoLd

reading.
Mr. SLANEY supported the motion. While there
were four millions of the population in a state of pao-
perism, he contended that the House was bound to reject
no proposition for the remedying such an evil without
investigation.
Sir EDMUND CARRINGTON said, that nine-

tenths of the prevailing evirarose, not so much from the
service, as from the vague nature of the hiring. He
bad seen enough of the existing law of settlement to
wish for the introduction of a better. He should vote
for this Bill, because it would mitigate an artificial
system that had originated in a misconstruction of the
statutes, and which might lessen or prevent litigation,
expense, and perjury.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he never came to a deci.
sion with more hesitation than on the present occasion.
The fact was, he had no practical experience in the
operation of the Poor Laws; he had only judged the
subject by the arguments which he had beard, and
must say he never heard arguments so nearly balanced.
Considering the question to be, whether the Bill should
be rejected altogether, or by allowing it to he read a
second time, it should be left for coosideration by the
House ? the latter being the course sshich he preferred,
he should vote for the second reading, but withqut at
all pledging himself to any support of the Bill in its
future stages.
Sir E. YNATCHBULL did not think that the Poor
Laws caused so much perjury as had been attributed
to them. He should vote against the second reading.
Sir E. H. EAST was disposed to adopt a new mode
of settlement, which he suggested would be better
adopted by labour than by the person claiming a set.
tlement having had assistance from the Poor Laws...
This mode he thought would avoid not vniv perjury.
but the chance of litigation. The entry of the labourer's
name would identify the parish to which he belonged.
Mr. M'QUEEN made a few observations in explana-
tion, and the Bill was then read a second time.

CORN LAWS SILL.
Mr. C. GRANT moved the bringing up of the Report of the
Corn Laws Bill.
Upon the motion for the second reading of the Resolutions.
Mr. HUME rose and said, that entertAilorig as he
did opinions different from those entertained by many
Honourable Members, he wished to take an opportunity
of stating them to the House. He maintained that the
land was not the principal interest cf the cowry. If
they looked to the experience of history they would find
that no country, in no time. hid been prosperous or
wealthy without commerce, let their soil have been ever
so fruitful and productive. 1., support of this argument
he reterred to the condition of Poland and Ireland, both
producing immense quantities of corn; but being with-
out commerce, both in the most wretched stare of po.
werty. The principle which ought to govern the cono
merce of this country was that of inducing the greatest
possible consumption, by making all articles of cocto
merce as cheap as possible. So far from the trade in
corn being entitled to an exemption from the rule, he
contended that it was particularly applicable to that
article. The growers of earn said, that if foreign coca
was admitted, their own would not be sold ; but, while
there were a million Of labourers w. slung for wages
that only bought them half a nse.+l a day, there was no
danger of si Itleit to the demand, if by purchasing
foreign edra our manufactures were required by
the foreigner. and our idle hands more enabled
thereby to purchase es much bread as they could eat,
and perhaps meat. It was, therefore. the interest of the
landed interest to support a free trade in corn, instead
of refusing it as they did. The measure was in direct
opposition to the general principles hid down by the
Right Honourable Secretary for the ColcMies in former
Sessions, in regard to free trade; and he was convinced
that the scale was not such a one as the Ministers would
have adopted, if they had thought they could succeed
in carrying a lower one through the other House. By
giving this protection to a particular capital, they were
injuring all the mass of the community. He denied
that it was an advantage to the landed interest; it was
an advantage to the landed proprietor, who was the
capitalist, but not to the farmer. The interest of the
farmer was no more the interest of the lauded proprie•
tor, than was that of the labouring manufacturer; and
he considered that a great delusion had been prac-
tised upon the country by the successful means taken
by the landed capitalists to induce the agricultural
interests to join in petitions against any alteration of the
existing law. He was aware that farmers who had
long leases were interested in common with the landed
proprietors, in seeking for high prices, but their interest
extended to no longer a period than their leases. When
the general tariff was under discussion, they were told
by the manufacturers that while the price of corn was
kept up by artificial means, they must also be pro-
tected. He said, therefore, let the trade of corn be
open, and the manufacturer will be able to compete
fully with the foreigner. He was convinced that com-
plete free trade would find employment for every
person in the country. But he was told that such
a plan could not be put in practice. And why not?
The present system of prohibition was of recent date.
Until 1791, the duty was only nominal, when the
price was forty-eight shillings per quarter. After 1791,
the duties had been gradually increased up to 1815, and
the increase took place in consequence of the war.
He therefore maintained that every endeavour ought
to be made to return to the duties which existed before
extraordinary causes gave rise to extraordinary mes-
sures. Burthened as the country was with taxation, it
was a complete fallacy to look for an adequate revenue
from the agricultural interest ; it was from the manu-
facturers it must come. He contended,the farmer u anted
a steady and not a high price. The symptoms hitherto
bad produced frightful fluctuations. Next to a steadi-
ness of price, a fixed and settled state of the law
was the most desirable thing to be obtained. He ob-
jected to the present scale upon the ground that it would
not settle the law. He therefore asked the Howe why
it should not agree with his proposition, which was to
the effect that the greatest possible quantity of core
should be admitted at a fair fixed duty,
which would
be the means of providing an increased demand for
labour? Many fears had been expressed that the coun-
try would be deluged with foreign corn, but he, looking
at the experience of thirty years, denied that those fears
had any foundation in justice. Looking at the Returns
before the House, he found that if a duty of 4s. or Sc.
were laid upon foreign corn, it would be brought to the
average price in England during the last two or three
years. The landed proprietors wished for an average
price of 60s. but he was convinced that the country
could not afford it. He was, however, ready to admit
that if the landed interest paid any taxes or rates, which
the rest of the community did not, they were entitled
to a counterbalancing duty to the amount of the extra
impositions under which they laboured. It was in that
spirit that he had made his calculations. His proposal,
therefore, would be, that the ports from the present day

be
P
,t

eontri

.uld be
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ich it
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rs the
airy h
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e Fief
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try "
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n bent
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That fr
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r of
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be open to foreign corn on the payment of a duty
UlJl.ss. per quarter, to be gradually reduced to lOs.
quarter. That course would have the effect of
Kstead.ness 10 the prices, and he was convinced
•
pr ce in Ent:l.nd would be the price of Europe.
tiTt to be. No system of averages could be
ot,d ..irhout being open to great abuses. For fifty
the ports of Holland had been open, and that
ay he,/ possessed the most steady market in the
id But two or three years since, at the solicitation
le Semis)] landowners, the example of this country
been followed, and fluctuating and high prices had
tbe consequence. He contended that the scheme
pr 01,04
so en to fewer objections than any other,
%void guard against the danger of high prices, so
offer a remedy for the inconvenience of low
But thete was another advantage it possessed.
convinced, from information he had received
the ports were thrown open to the corn of the
':t state-, the consequence would be, that that
would put down its own manufactures, and
its raw material to this country to be converted
The system of free trade ought to be en-
,; it was essential to the prosperity of the
f; but it was idle to think that it could be acted
beneficially with respect to other articles, unless
; extended to corn. The Honourable Member
;tied by proposing, as an Amendment, the follow-
r.rolutior.;
'Tom and after the sth of July 1828. and until the sth of
129, a Duty of Fifteen Shillings shall be imposed on every
of Wheat imported from any foreign country into the
Kingdom ; and for the year from the sth of July 1829, to
of July MO, a Duty of Fourteen Shillings per quarter;
'very succeeding year afterwards, the Duty shall be reduced
'ling until the sth of July 1834, after which time the Duty
Wings shall remain a permanent and fixed duty, payable
y quarter of Wheat imported from foreign countries, except
Ada, as hereafter provided for."
Mt. WAR BU it.roN seconded the amendment. He
'stained that a fixed duty would secure a supply at
times, and afford a certain protection to the British
•r. The country Gentlemen appeared to be satis-
with the scale proposed by the Right Hon. Gentle-
(Nlr.Gtant), because it imposed prohibitory duties,
the corn was 58s. or 58s. in price ; but the Right
...demon himself had declared that his measure'
not or a prohibitory character. How those diffe-
, were to be reconciled he should not pretend
Another Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Secretary
bad characterised the measure as a compromise
two great interests, but he (Mr. Warburton)
that the advantage was all on one side. He
tin Burgess, and he thought that one interest
more entitled to protection than another. The
, lemen had laboured to prove that the price
corn in foreign markets was not above half of what
was in this, and he maintained that the lower the
.Jas in foreign countries the more moderate ought
be the duty we demanded ; and the Government
I the agriculturists ought to remember that whatever
;ht be the duties they succeeded in imposing, they
Id nct prevent the migration of capital. The Erni-
Committee reported that there was a super-
of capital and of population in the country,
it did appear to him to be an act of insanity in the
;try Gentlemen to persevere in upholding a system
, alike impeded the employment of capital and of
population.
Mr. C. GRANT stated, that it was not his intention
enter at large into the principle of the question, as
• had been discussed sufficiently often to make Hon.
quite familiar with it. With many of the
principles laid down by the Hon. Member for
• he certainly concurred, though not in the
;s he drew from them. He agreed with the
.mber in the opinion that high prohibition prices
in'prinus to the agriculturist, as well as to the
sumer. From the experience of the last fifteen years,
agreed with him that high prohibition prices tended
irive out capital, and that they are not consistent
the state of the currency. He agreed that the sp..
the list 15 years ought to be corrected, and those'
prole.sed, both when he supported Mr.
II of last year; and when he brought forward
.esolutions this Session ; but the Honourable
push these doctrines to extremes. As to
made to his Right Honourable Friend the
the Colonies, and the opinions expressed
is alterations of the Commercial Laws, hi.
Curable Friend, in all his alterations, did not
ipply one inflexible rule to all branches of
adapted the role to the nature of the
, and raised the rate of duty according to the
laces of the particular case; not to the degree
inciple required, but to the various circum.
expediency necessary to be considered in
rum a bad system to an improved one. He
the Mon. Member that in principle they
deal with corn as with any other commodity
The Hon. Member had said there were two
;posing a duty on corn, one an ad valorem
other a fixed one. Now he wished to know
inciples an ad eakarent duty could be tegu-
lad been recommended by an Hon. Member
night. Was it to vary with the value of

ABERLY declared that he did not advocate
valorem duty, but that he could not understand
principle the Government proposed a duty of
rent. on corn.

,ANT was sure that the opinion had been re-
-4 by some Gentleman the other night; but he
ceroprehend on what principle an ad valorem
be advocated. As to the proposal of a &red
it was impossible to snake an estimate ot
charges to which the farmer was subjected—
, poor rates, tithes, and other imposts—he
comprehend how the House could make up
duty out of such fluctuating elements. The
Member had said that the Resolutions would
'ln make the price of corn unsteady, but it
be said they were proved to have such a
toducing fluctuation, inasmuch as they were
let. He considered the Hon. Member to be
thinking that a fired duty would necessarily
tdy price to corn; it was impossible that any
id prevent variations in the price of an article,
:e depended so much on circumstances over
human efforts had controul. He was sure
ced duty could not give a steady price ; but by
itions before the House, the variations of duty
irect the fluctuations of price. Then, suppos-
ted duty to operate through the whole scale
might not the price rise so high as to render
iible that the duty could be maintained ? It
bible to read the history of the prices of the
. food without being conv►nced that no human
could prevent the fluctuation of prices, and that
'old unavoidably occur when tbere must
treity. The House would abandon their
they sanctioned the principle that a sear-
never come under a fixed duty. Only see
ald bn the situation of the country in case of
contingency. The Honourable Member was
, to benefit the consumer by a measure calcu;
'ten up a high duty on high rices. But sup•

qua
ng Acad.!'"
t the pt ce
in
ich it
ported ithoi
is the P'""
nayhad poss
.rid. lion two
the Fiend)] 14
d been fnilowe
n ii,e (nosey
fni,o,ed was
it
t„ uid guar,
.uld offer a
ces But Cher
„is (onvinct
t the port
ix,t State-,
otry would
j its raw mat
gods. Thl
Red; ed• it w.
try ; but it
beneatiall]
ass extended
luded by pr
That from and
1829, a Duty
er of Wheat
ted Kingdom;
Rh of July 182
in every sutra
Sbilling until
Ten Shillings
every quarter of
nada, n bereafh
Mr. WARM
aintained that
1 noses, and a
oxen. The c
d with the st;
an Olt.Grant
iii the corn w
on.Gentlemat
s not of a p,
/views were
say. Anothe
.1 had char
toren two gi
ght that tl
ss plain Bu:
not more e
uotry Gen lei
corn in forei;
was in this,
're was in foi
be the dm,
d the agricul
ight be the r
.uld nct prey
ation Comm
umlaut of c
Id it did apps
.untry Gentle
hich alike im
e population.
Mr. C. WU,
enter at larj
at had been
entlemen qu
neral princit
towdeen he
•nclusinns he
on. Member ,
ere itiprious
.nsunter. Fro
agreed with
drive out c
ith the state
m of the 14st
inciples he I
inning's Bill
.e present re,/
ember woul,
e allusions ati
emu! for I
him in his ;
ight Honour
alas to apt
de, bin a,
mmodi y, a
*conflates
t his piaci
es of ex'
using from
greed with t
.ught to deal
.f traffic. T
ys of imp(
the othi
is what print
led, as had
he other ME
article ?
Mr. MAB
ad Worn
'lbat prima
'S Per cent.
Mr. GRA
.mmended
'Ad not co
sty could b
here,
%lions cl
imaments,
e°ll4 not cc
$ rued dut,
Bon. methi
contribute v
could not b
Power of tot
not tried yet
".tag in us
Rile 4 stead
dwl could
whale price
/11'11 no h
that % sued
he lesoluti.
cold corre
°8 Sae(
m
imPoosibl
as impos,i
nide of fo
I' coal/
tines wool
stare
uty if thi
1 ")teal •
k I
dal V, plik
13(h
a COI
'tqeliiptc t
:Id to lee