Star.
London, England, 1827-03-30 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

01101/12D INTO CUITODT.

The names of the Members who were ab,eot from the ballot on.
Tuesday, and who were ordered to attend this day, were ailed
over; several were excused from illness, or unavoidatle absehre,
and the following defaulters, who were nut present at the ballot,
and for whom no excuse was offered, were ordered to he taken into
custody by the Serjeant at Arms, viz. Mr. Robert Grant, the Hon.
F. G. Howard, Lord George Lennox, Mr. John W. Maxwell,
Mr. Foster, Mr. Protheroe, Sir Nicholas Conyngham Tindal, (the
announcement ofthe name of the H nn. and Learned Gentlemah as
a defaulter, and the order to take him into custody, excited a great
deal of merriment), Mr. Tandine, the Earl of Uxbridge.
An Hon. bloom rose to excuse the Noble Lord in comequism
of the illness of Lady Uxbridge, and Mr. Hume conceiving that
the plea of illness was made for the Earl himself, mid that be under.
stood the Noble Lord wax seen in St. James's-street this day.
The SPEAKER, however, informed the Hon. Member that be
understood the Noble Lord pleaded to la• excused in consequence
of the indisposition, not of himself, but of Lady Uxbridge • and it
was for the House to decide whether that excuse wu sudcisnt or
not ? The question was put, and the Noble Lord was ordemd to
be excused.

The Clerk then proceeded with the names, and Mr. John Wells
and Mr. John Wilk' were amongst the defaulters. Tim fanner
was ordered to be taken into custody, and
Mr. WYNN said that he had received a letter from Mr' WI s,
stating that he was engaged io important business oo theAssises,
.which prevented his attendance at the House either yesterday or
to.clay. He therefore begged to he excansd. The Right Him
Gentleman added, that Mr. Wilks was it new Member, and was
I probably not aware of the penalty attached to his Don-attendance.
After a short discussion, the excuse of Mr. Wilks was considered
insufficient, and he was ordered to be taken into custody with the
other defaulters.

11ZDON SLICIMON Pr 131301.
The following were the names of the Members appointed }ad
sworn to try the merits of this Petition :—Mr. George Robinson,
Mr. James Balfour, Lord Vlieount Ebrington, Right Hot.` V.
Fitzsemld, Sr C. Wetherell, Lord Ruben Martners, Mr. C. J.
Clinton, M. G. M. Fortescue, Lord Duncannon, Sir Francis
cl,tt, Mr. M'Kenzie, Mr. Alexander Baring, Mr. C. IL
Mr. D. Sykes, and Mr. Horace Twigs.

1:43111141111 SUICTIOIt.
Sir G. ROSE, the Chairman of the Committee appointed ,
try this Zealot), brought op the Report from the Committer, in-
forming t►e Bowe that therisad determined that Joseph '

j cis Our-
!Utley, .
i
Intel! to
tree, in-
Abiitt,

i.

Elmit not a Ltectedaidts -1114
n ought bays been
irsig va swim arliament for the borough of Deno
that tedlrftk West, F.sq. was duly elected, and ought
been returned for the said borough. The Report added,
Ilk gaNagAit:he return was not frivolous or vs
).'), %i* gip 'i igts..4 C same was not frivulour or
geili
Tlle I 3 fry rib 01l Crown was then ordered
morrow to amend the sal return.
WISTIKZAIII ZLICTION iltelTION.
The following Members were appointed and Mare tithe .
miner to try the merits of this Petition, viz. Mr. John Bond,
Mr. C K. Tynte, Mr. John Guest, Mr. Pryso Pryse, Lord Jon
Hay, Lord Valletort, Mr. W. F. Scott, Mr. R. Colborne, Mr. T.
S. Rice, Eirl of Brecknock, Mr. Richard Arkwright, Lord A.
Mill, Right Hon. R. J. W. Horton, Right Hum Leslie Foster, and
the lion. J. S. Wortley.
JAM/3011'S DROWN 111 L.
The Heuse went into a Committee so this Bill. Counsel were
heard, and witnesses were examined. The Report was then re-
ceived. Celli Laws—tz.naa TRAWL
Petitions were presented, praying for protection of the firitish Far-
meta, against Foreign Corn, and for protection against Foreign Flour,
from the Niilkrs and Merchants of Cork, try Mr. H. Hutchinson;
front Montgomeryshire, by kir.C. W. Wynn; from Owner, of Land
1
'near Winchester, Aid from the Millers of North and SoutbShiehis, by
Mr Ijidell; from Oikkrist and two other hundreds in Norfolk, by
Mr.Wodelmuse ; from some parish in Sussex, by Mr. Curtefsi from
Ineernets-Shire, by Calonel think ; from farmers near Peterafields 1
and another from farmers near Fareham, by Mr. Flemming. This
last Petition prayed, that the averages on which the duty was tube
paid. might be aten on the prices of six weeks and not of one.
On this Perithati being presented,
Sir T. LETH Bill DGB wished to know what was determined
(if anything was yet determined) as to the mode of taking the aye-
-rages; whether the duty was to be on the average of several weeks
•or of one only ? He was also anxious to know what day would be
tied for the second reading of the MA, which, be understood, was
to be brou.lit in this evening. -
' Alr. C. GRANT said it was his intention to bring in the Bill
' this evening, and to move that It be,read a second time on Monday.
As to the first question of the Has. Baronet. he would observe that
'lt was lutended to have the duty take* on the average of tbs. weak
as less liable to abuse. .
kir. CA 1.0 R A FT said, what Ids Honourable Friend wished to
'know, was, whether any change was intended in the mode of Sang
the duty?
111 r. C. GRANT said, that be Change VMS intended. The duty
would be on the average price of the week the Curs was intros ted.
Many persons who were well acquainted with the trade had ex-
pressed their approbation of that mode, in protector.* to taking an
average of several weeks.
Mr. Secretary PRIM understood the question to have been left in
this state at the last discussion. An Honourable Friend of his had
for baying the gm on the month, and not on one week.
pressed
question was considered to be oeen for consideration, and it
had been attentively examined by his Right Honourable Friend,
the President of the Board of Trade, who thought that the weekly
average would be less liable to tie operations of fraud than any
other.---. After a few words from Mr. Cements.

Mr. C. ()KANT said t►at, the subject would be better road-
egered when the Bill should be to a Committee.
Tilt ♦WAIT EX INDIA. _ _
__

Hr. G wyN N pee notice that he would on the Ist day of May
=wee the Thanks of the House to our Army in India, for the bril-
liant successes which had attended their efforts in that part of the
world.

-
6011111011 TALLOW, USX?, Ike.
On the motion of Mr. Comes, there were ordered to be laid be-
fore the Howet returns of the quantity of foreign tallow, hemp,
Dal, hides, and seeds imported Into this country since (as we could
• hear) 1607 ; also of the quantity of foreign butter and cheese im-
ported kite England since i tor, with the amount of duty p‘id on
each stuck.

TES ITATI OF Tat areinusenarson.
Mr. R. DAVENPORT, adverting tea notice of his which stood
for Tuesday next, said, that his motion was for a Select Committee
to Inquire into the cause 'Wag national distress. It was his inten-
t on to bring it on on the day named, but be was prevented by the
unsettled state in which the Adminietratlon of the country was left,
ea rather by there being, he inliht say, no Adniiniatratiois formed.
Six weeks had now elapsed since the occurrence of an event which
bad w serioualy affected a Nubk Lord, who might be cnisasdered as
else last rentainmg link that held the Ad • ',trades together. The
country bad a right to expect, in that dose, that an Admiasinsation
would be formed, but nothing had yet been dour towards that end.
In this unc.rtain stateof skims, be had bergs advised by several of
lain friends to postpone his nsutsuu tiU after the Easter hoddays, and
as he saw no earlier °peat day, he would is it tor the 17th of Nay.

,

_
gistrates, to . number . ,asset
mined to prevent it, from a conviction of its illegality.
One of them, however, a Mr. Johnston. took a different
view of the subject. He contended in favour of the lega-
lity of such precessions, and promulgated his opinion.
Sanctioned by his authority, an assembly of many hun-!
dred men took place. attended by flags, drums, and all
the other usual appendages of such Meetings, and
throughout the day the town of Lisburne was a scene of
riot and confusion. The other Magistrates thought it
Abair du y to address a repre.entation of the conduct of
Mr. J hnston to the Lord Chancellor, and after full de.
-liberation a letter came down from that high authority
to Mr. Johnston, congratulating him on the propriety
of his conduct. The other Magistrates then thought it
necessary ttrapply to the Chief Secretary of Ireland, to
be informed, as the conduct of Mr. Johnston had been
so highly approved, in what li4ht their conduct was I
considered? The answer was, that their conduct was;
highly approved by his Excellency the L rd Lieutenant.l
Thus there WAS one letter for, and another against, their '
opinions and conduct, and puzzled by these conflicting
decisions, emanating irons authotities sn exalted, they',
addressed another letter to the Hon.Gentlortopoirequest-
ing an explanation. To this last letter no answer had
been retetned up to the pre eat moment. Was this to
be called government P - This inciting of one person in
the commission of the peace against another—this en-
couraging one Magistrate to head and sanction an
assemblage of persons, which another set of Magis-
trates were encouraged to disperse and despoil of their
banners. He was not ashamed to confess, that he had
himself been an Orangeman. There was not a finer or
more spirited body of me.i than the Orangemen of the
North of Ireland, but they were converted into instiu
ments of mischief, by the same causes which consumed
the peace and endangered the safety of the whole coun-
try. They had a tight to walk in procession if they
liked, bus if they walked on the 12th of July other men
would walk on other days of the year. The system
pursued by Government was calculated to make Ireland'
one va,t mad-h sum of demoniac spit its. teady to follow
any man who would take the lead of them. Having
stated all this, he might perhaps be asked for its appli•
cation; but for this he though' it impossible that any
man could be at a loss. These lamentable occurrences
were all produced by t'.e distractions and divisions of
the Cabinet. The Honourable Member concluded
by moving for a Copy of the Correspondence be
weep the Magistrat -s of the town of Lisburne and the
Right Honourab!e H. Goulburn, relating to the Orange
procession of the 12th of July, 1825, together with
copies of the affidavits transmitted by the Magistrates.
Also a copy of the Correspondence between the Rev.
Philip Johisscon, one of the Magistrates of the said town,
and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, on the same sub-
ject, together with the affidavits ; also, a copy of the
opinion of the Lew Officers of the Crown, on the lega-
lity of Orange priscessio is.
Mr. GOULIIURN said, that if it was the intention of
his lion. Friend to allay the spirit of isatfation which
unhappily prevailed is; Irelands he had adopted a course
little calculated to promote his ohject—and. had dis-1
played but a scanty pdrtion of discreti n, its ripping up
an old quarrel, two yea: s alter the occurrence which had
occa.icesed it: If the peace of Ireland was thintght by
his lion. Friend to depend in any degree upon the
harmony of her Magistrates, this was not • the way
by With her peace could be promoted. Ile would be
Able by a very few words to chew the -House that the
nclusions sal his Hon. Friend were entitely erroneous;
and that, unless Government had take 1 the evidence
only on one side of the question, as he had done, it was
Impossible for them to :strive at the same conclusions.
There might be some inconvenience belonging to a
Government coins used of persons of different political
opinions ; but he th•ught that the complaint came with
a bad grace (torn his Hon. Friend, whose present opi-
nions were, that the best Government for Ireland would
bi one, composed of men (hireling. not only in their p0..c.0
..c.0
litical, but also in their religious opini.‘ns--(Ile r, hear).
He would however assert, that the present Government
in all cases manifested yeif.ct impartiality in adm•nis-
tering the existing laws. He would point nut the in-
accuracies of the statement of his Hon. Friend, n t
by the evidence of one pa ty or the other, but by that of
impartial and disitreiested persons. It was true that
plevious to the 12 h Jury, 1325, as on former occasions,
Goveinment had taken steps to prevent these proces-
I .
ms, and that an opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor
General, pronoun ing them illegal, had been promul-
gated. There was, as had been stated, a meeting of
the five Magistrates previous Li the 12th, when four of
shoos agreed to act upon that opinion, and one, the Itev
Philip Johnston, dissented. But what was the extent
of his difference of vpin.on? He said he had doubts
as to the meaning of the Statute: that it did not contain
the word g• procession;' and that, being a penal Sca-
lute, it ought to be construed strictly. He said that he
would make eves,. effort to prevent a procession, but
he did not make a distinction. He was unwilling to
resort to force in the first instance. He recommended

that persuasion ►houll first be empllied, and he (Mr.
Goulburn) thought he had no reason t,i be ashamed of
his conduct. He was a Clergyman, and bound in that
character, to inculcate the feelings of humanity; and he
was, moreover, a man in the 78th year of his age, who
might well be excused even if he had shewn some
want of proper vigour, and still more when he had
only counselled his Brother Magistrates not to resort to
force if it could be avoided. Mr. Johnston had not
promulgated his opinion, nor bad he been in the town
at the wise of the riot. On the receipt of the papers
connected with these proceedings the Lord Lieutenant
had submitted them to the Lord Chancellor. That
Noble Lotd did not proceed like his Hon. Friend, and
condemn at once. He applied to the party accused, and
heard his statements and evidence, and then did not, as
hisHon.Fr iend had stared, send a flaming letter of appro-
bation, complimenting him on knowing the law better
than theLawOfficers or the Crown. He had the letter, and
would read it ; but would first ask what the question was
which the Lord Chancellor had to decide? That ques-
tion was no less than whether he should remove this
Magistrate from the Commission ? an exercise of power
of a most delicate nature. and one never resorted to in
this country without the facts having been first esta-
blished in a Court of Justice. No reply was given to
Mr. Johnston till he had made a second application,
when the Lord Chancellor wrote to him in the words
, which be would now read t—" I am sorry that you

not, in

you

probation? If his Hon. Friend had been disposed to
treat tne subject with ordinary candour, he would
not have permitted himself to describe a letter, contain-
ing such a passage as he had just read, as conveying
unqualified approbation. But perhaps his Hon. Friend
would prefer the opinion of some high legal character,
who thought as he himself now did up-su the question
of the Catholic claims. He was able to accommodate
him with en authority of this description. On the pa-
pers coming to his office, he submitted them, as a thing
of course, to his Right Hon. Friend, the Attorney-
General for Leland. He surely would not be suspected .
of being tainted with Orangeism; for, if he remember-
ed rightly, some pretty warm contests had taken place
on this subject between his Right Hen. and his Hun.
Friend, when the latter had different views of the sub-
ject from those he now entertained. The memorandum
of his Right Hon. Fs ieud upon these documents was in
these words—" I think the Magistrate has given an ex-
planation quite sufficient to do away any necessity for
his removal." In short, the opinion of the Attorney
General was perfectly in accordanCe with that of the
Lot d Chancellor. They should c usider, not ;slime the
interest of the patty applying, but the effect that might
be produced on toe public mind, if the House should
agree to tire prod iction of these documents. Mr.John-
stqn himself applied for those very documents, for the
',impose of making them the ground of a legal decision
with respect in his conduct upon that occasioi ; and
the answer retukned by him (Mr. G.) was, that it could
answer no purPose to place them in his hands, as
his Conduct had been considered pet fectly justifiable.
He should not follow his Honourable Friend throasb
the general topics on which he had touched, its
they were of too Breit magnitude in themselves
for an incidental discussion, and were not naturally
connected with the subject. Tnere was a deficiency
of one half in his sta ement of facts, as his H's.
Friend had brought under the consideraion of • the
House one side of the question. lie trusted these-'
fore no more was necessary to chew that the motion
was uncalled for. The same motives which induced
Government to withhold from Mr. Johnston himself,
AS well as from the other Magistrates a statement of
the facts and circumstances for which they applied,
*mild now prevent him from granting the documents
for which his Hon. Friend moved. His reasons for
refusing them were, that nearly too years had now
elapsed since these events took place, that since that
time no processions had taken place in Lisburne, and
that the effect of the motion, if agreed to, might be
to rip up again a subject which must naturally ex
cite animosity—(Hear, hear).
Mr. S. RICE said, the complaint had not bent an-
swered. It was most indecorous for Mr. Johnston to
have attended that Orange Parade, dressed out in the
Orange insignia—(Hear).—This of itself was a sufficient
proof of the sort of feeling which had actuated him.
Mr. PLUNKETT contended that, this being not
a question of Magistetial condo. t. but of the con-
struction to be put on an Act of Parliament, the L
Chanceilor could out have wtitten a leiter different
from tie one produced. If, however, it was thought
his L irdship ought to have written a letter of aspe-
rity, that seemed to have been 'species', which his
Lordship was most likely to fall short in. Thi•ugh
differing from his Lot &hip as to the questi.in of Emats-
cepation, he was ready to identity with his
Lordship in all that regarded his L,irdship's administra-
tion of public justice. There sta. not an individual
connected with the Government, who co-operated with
mote cordiality than the Lord Chancellor, to put down
pasty feeling in Ireland. The only part of Mr. Johnston's
conduct he (Mr. Piunk:tt) did not approve was, his
appearing with the orange riband at his breast; but the
defence had been that he had stern such a siband the
greater part of his life.
Sir J. N itt; W POUT said he never regretted any thing
more than that part of his Right Honourable Friend s
speech in which he identified himself with the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland.
Mr. PLUNKETT.—It is well known that my opi:
niont with respect to one great question differ :ago cage
from those of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and must
ever continue so. When L said I identified myself with
the Noble Leid, I confined that observation to the ad-
ministration of the law in Ireland.

Sit J. NEWPORT contended, that if the conduct of
the Reverend Magistrate be so upright, why refuse to
produce the documents that will prove the purity of
his motives? These decuments were the beet and only
m-ans of allaying the suspicions and fermetttatinn on
all sides, and should be at once produced. The House
were bound to insist upon their production, far it was
absurd to refuse them on the ground that orange pro-
! cessions and their revolting con,equences were melting
away. They were told so in 1811 tad in 1824, and
yet in 1825 a Magistrate, in defiance of the law, ap-
pears at the head of au orange tawny in all the insignia
of intolerance and irritation.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said be should con6ne himself
to the simple question, whether or not there was suffi-
cient Parliamentary ground for the production of cer-
tain papers? He should pursue the discussion without
vehemence, and abstain from touching upon any topic
;calculated to excite irritation. The Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Brownlow) occupied much of the time on the
Catholic Question—a most important topic, ne doubt,
but entirely beside the present subject. The Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir J. Newport) contended, that as there were
conflicting statements in this case, there was no way
of setting the matter at rest but by the production of
the papers. He could not agree that strong asser-
tions on one side were sufficient ground for granting
any documents for which Honourable Gentlemen might
please to move. Tne real question was, whether these
appeared to be such a prima facie case of blame as
ought to induce the House to concur in the motion ? He
should endeavour to chew that there never was a case
brought before Parliament in which there was less of
suspicion, a case which less warranted the production of
papers. Entertaining as strong an opinion as any person
en the Catholic Question, he had heard no sentiments
expressed, by its warmest advocates, with respect to
Orange associations and Orange processions, in which
he did not fully concut.—(Hear 1) He wished they were
at an end, and he believed they were gradually dis-
solving. He thought much more highly of those who
discouraged than those who encouraged them. He would
[do what be couldlo repress th: srs by law, and were he a,

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men retuned a • shield of equal law over the people subject to lts hi- bive had the troubk of writing a second leup, ancLed,
Denbigh, and guenc ;
e he woold put it down by inspiring them with collecting affidavits, and am gratified in being enabled
ought to have
respect and affect ion f,i the legal imtitutions of the to state, that so rasp:eta* a Gentleman has not, in
doled, that tier
vexatious, and country. The Hon. Welber said, that he would now 'the discharge of his public duty, incurred any an
DT vexations.-- come to the immediate object of his motion. He en• start. At the same time, I differ from you in opinion
dto aura/ to. vred into a detail of transac ions which took place in as to the law. Orange processions must be illegal,
the town of Lisburne, on the 12th July, 1825. In the inasmuch as they emanate from an Mega society.
r, ante Conr.. belief that an Orange Procession was intended, the Ma. independent of their tendency to disturb the public
r. John Hood, gistrate,, to the number of five, assenibled.They deter- peace." Was this,
I,he would ask, an unqualified ap-
• • •% I,e• l • 1 _ •• • • l_ _I l— Il• A