Star.
London, England, 1804-03-13 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. SPEAKER havirg taken the Chair at half raft three,
Sir WILLI h F.NEY rt.,. fenced the Scotch Bankers'
nil!, which wax read a fitft time, and ordered for the kcood
reading, but no day named.
On the motion of Sir J. W. ANDERSON, the Temple-bar and
mnow.hill improvement Bill .ray read the fi.cond time, and ordered

- .
forthwith to a Committe, I.p Italia
Mr. HURST prefmted a Petition from John Vi'ilfon, a puffin
imprifoned by order of the Houfe for prevarication in his cal.
dune before the Ayleibury Elation Committee, acknowledg-
ing his crime, praying pardon of the Houk, and liberation from
his imprifonment.—Ordeted that he be brought to the Bar of the
Houk on Wudnifday nut, reprimanded and discharged, paying
his fees.
Read the third time the Hide and Tallow Import Bill; paired
and ordered to the Lords.
A Petition was prrfented from the Trotter, of the Bridal Mu.
from, praying further pecuniary aid. Ordered to lie on the table.
Ordered alto, that an Account, Chewing the livenl hints heretofore
granted to the laid Truftees, and the mode of expenditure thereof,
Octal.' before the Houle.
The Committee of Simply was priftpoool to Wcdnefday.

bzeurczyst
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
the Hoek relnived hi& into a Committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. ALEXANDER In the Chair.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, porfuant to the
notice he had gives on Saturday night a, moved, That a Sum
not exceeding two millions, for the &twice of his Majefty. be
railed by Exchequer Nils, towards the exigencies of the year."
He felt it ucctEary to inform the Houle, that this fum was not
called for by any immediate (limey, but merely as a provifional
(apply, In order to allow Government further time fee negociating
the Loan for the ft:vice of the year.
The motion was agreed to, and ordered to be reported to-

morrow.
• This notice wax not detailed in our Parliamentary Intel/hake
of yellerday, baying been given to the Houfe while itrangers were
excluded from the Gallery, during a dirifion whkb took plaahand
confesuently not beard by our Reporter.

AFF•II.S.

Mr. CORRY moved the Order of the Day for the
Houfe to refolve Welt into a Committee on the Id&
Confolidation Duty Bill.
The order being read, Mr. CORRY felt it =ca.
fary very fhortly to detain the Houfe by Conte °bier-
vations upon an oblation which had been Ratted by,
a Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him (Mr. Fof-
ter) upon a former day, with raped to the alledged
informality of bringing forward the prefent Bill, as
affecting the hereditary revenue of the Crown, with.
out any intimation from his Majelly, expreffive of
his royal affent to the meafure. In order to prove,
fo far at lead as precedent could go; that no fuch in-
timation had been deemed neceffary upon the intro-
dalion of sinecures precifely fimilar both in the Par-
liament of Ireland and Great Britain, he went into
a detailed hillory of what was called the hereditary
revenue in Ireland, and particularly fo much of it
as related to the duties on tobacco, tea, And hearth-
money, the Ads for ellabliffiing which, as part of
the hereditary revenue, had been paffed in the lath
and 'ph of Charles H. which were afterwards con-
firmed by a declaratory claufe in an Ad of William
111. and fo continued until the pa of the King,
when the dudes upon tobacco were confolidated. and
it was then declared, that the original duty of std.
per pound on tobacco fhould remain hereditary ; and
in the 33d of the King, when a civil lift was voted
in Ireland to his Majetty, in conformity to a fimilar
arrangement in England, thole enadments Rill con-
tinned; but though Come doubt was entertained,
whether it was again neccffary to make any declara.
tion upon the fubjea in the cafe of a Royal demife,
it was judged, that in fuch a cafe the revenues would
again revert to Parliament, to make fach new ar-
rangements as fhould fecal neceffary. Thus they
continued to be enated every Seflion till the year
2782, and annually ever fince in Ireland, in the very
fame manner and words; and no Royal Meffage to
Parliament was ever deemed necefrary to warrant
the Irifh Parliament in proceeding on the fubjed. In
like manner the duty on Tea, which in the reign of
Charles 11. was 61. per cent. ad valorem. was, in the
IR of George 11. changed to the 7th of the King,
when it was changed to a rateable duty of 6d. per
lb. on fine, and 4d. per lb. on black teas. Out of
the produce of the duty, fo altered, to,oool annu•
ally was to go to the encouragement of the linen
manufature 73001. was declared to be permanent
hereditary duty, being the amount of the previous
duty, and the Curtails, if any, to go to the common
account of the public ; and no Royal Meffage was
ever thought neceffary. The fame duties had been
continued fince the IJAion, now the third year in the
Imperial Parliament, and no filch oblation ever was
Rafted ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf,
when Chancellor of the Ira Exchequer, had brought
forward thole Bills for feveral fucceffive years. In
the Parliament of England, in the 27th of the King,
an addition took place in the Poll Office Duties, an.
other branch of .'le hereditary revenue, when the
Cum of 380,0001. was refereed as hereditary revenue,
and the furplus applied to the public accounts ; yet
no melrage from the Crown was delivered or thought
neceffary. Groutaling himfelf on thefe precedents.
he felt warranted in concluding, that no fuch previous
intimation had been deemed neceffary by the Parlia.
ment in either Country. It might. however, be
argued, that thole precedents might have been created
by inadvertency, and were not fufficiently firong to
guide the Houfe in a decilion upon the queflion.-
11, however, it fhould he the opinion of Gentlemen,
that a Meffitge was indifpenfable. he would not re-
fi ft it.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Paid, that from the able and explicit llatement of-Aix
Right Hon. Friend who had jai fat down, the Hoofs
would fee he had completely ityfeified himfelf in the
proceedings he had adopted, and alto the Officers of
Government in Ireland t but lea the Honfe (hould
not be fatisfied with precedents in the frith Parlia•
meat, he had felt it his duty to examine precedents
in the proceedings of Parliament in this country. and
from every cafe he there found, he was warranted
to conclude, that the Houfe would be jiiffified in pro-
ceeding with thi. hill, without fuch previous Cm-
ment as Rated by the Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr.
Potter.) He knew (Al well, that his Majeity's
in-
tereas in the Hereditary Revenue could not be touched
without his affent bit by the conaant ufage of
Parliament, that Allem might be declared in any
Itap of the bill, from its introduction to its third

reading. But anzions to obviate all doubts and dlr.
Beulties upon this fubjeas he felt arlis duty ttra4
the quettion in that crariet molt authentic on
fifilea. He had /Omitted It to his biJjefly. and he
had it in command frcm his *lefty to declare his

full alllnt to the meafure. .
Mr. FOSTER declared himfelf fully Codified with
the declaration of the Right Hnn..Gentleman. But
there was nothing in the ttatement of his Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Corry) which went to remove his oh-
jeEtions to the Bill, which were not at all againft an-
nual enaßments, but againd the perpetuation of
thole taxes, contrary to the cootie which had been
un'formly followed in the Parliament tilf Ireland.
Mr. ROSE thought it highly indifpenrible, that
the Houfe Amid take no proceeding whatever af-
feaing the Hereditary Revenue, without a fpccial
Meffage from his Majerly in the ufual forms, and
not an intimation thus verbally communicated by a
fervant of the Crown. The precedents of parliamen-
tary proceedings were,he contended, the reverie. The
Houle, if it had a right to meddle with tool. r year
of the Hereditary Revenue, had jug as good a right
to meddle with goo,ocol. and he thought the Right
Hon. Gentleman who made the objeaion, entitled to
the thanks of the Houfe, for preventing them perfe-
vering in an irregnlarand unparliamentar y proceeding.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQITE ad-
mitted the orient of the Crown was necettary, and
the thanks due to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the
objellion he had Rated; but he argued there were
many inftances efpecially "Selling the interefts of
the Crown, where no meffage came previoutly to
the Houfe, for it might be declared at any Rage of
the Bill.—Mr. ROSE explained.
Mr. G. PONSONB I, knowing as he did, that in
the particular cafe of the fettlement of the Civil Lill
in Ireland, there was a fpecific maize from his Ma-
jelly to the Houle, delivered by Lord Hobart, then
klinifter, and entered upon the Journals, before the
Houle took any proceeding, he could not have ex-
pelled fo pofitive a Ratement to the contrary from
the Right Hon. Gentleman who began this debate.
Mr. ORMSBY fupported the arguments of Mr.
Corry, as to precedents.
Mr. PONSONBY laid, thefe were only annual
enaßments, and could not bear on the prefent Bill,
which was to perpetuate the taxes.
Mr. FOSTER (aid, though his Majeßy oriented
, for himfelf, the interefts of his fucceffurs would alto
be affe&ed by the Bill ; and to this point he would
apply bimfalf in the Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
plied. He begged to be underftood that his Mnjetty's
agent had been given in the broadeit fenfe of the
word; but at the fame time there was not the molt
diilant with, on the part of hi. Majerty, to fetter the
difcretion of Parliament.
The Houle then went into a Committee.
Mr. FOSTER Rated various objeftions to the Bill.
. .

He raid, it tended to no good end, but went to en-
cumber proceedings, and, to harars the Mercantile
Intereft of Ireland, by making taxes perpetual, which
in a (port time, it would be found neceffary to repeal.
He faw no good (Ned which could be obtained 4'
fuch a confideration. It would not render any of
the fchedules more clear to the Colleaors ; it would
not render the colleaion more eafy, nor add one iota
to the revenue. No man in Ireland was lalling for
fuch a confolidation. •It would not render any of
the fchedules more clear to the Colleaors ; it would
not render the colleaion more eafy; nor atdd one icta
to the revenue. No man •in Ireland vies etalingTor
filch a confolidation, but every one was reprobating
it. There was no propriety an laying heavy incuin-
brances on articles of trade, when we were engaged
in war. The merchants and brewers would complain
with juftice ; and would be under the necellity of re.
gulating their trade accordingly. He particularly
deprecated the idea of ccrnfolidating the duties bn
herrings, hops, linens, and licences. No oppor units
had been given to the Mercantile Intereft in Ireland,
to fee and confider the feheeltiler, the Bill having
been only firft heard of left Tuerday. He concluded
with moving, that the Bill Ihould only extend to Cie
ayth of March, rflos.
Mr. CORRY Paid, that it was not intended by this
Bill to render taxes fo fixed and perpetual, on any
article of trade, as that they lhould not be reconfi-
dered at any future period, and every relief afforded
to the manufaanrer. For that esprefs pupae a
clanfe was added, as is done in every Mt of Par-
liament.
After a long converfation, in which various ob-
fervations were made both for and again& the pro-
pored amendment, Mr. roller agreed to withdraw
his motion, in order that the Committee might re-
por progrefs ; but he referred his right to urge his
fentiments againft perpetuating the taxes on a future
occafion.

The Houfe refumed, and the Committee accord.
ingly reported progrefs, and leave was given them
to fit again to-morrow.
VOLUNTrat BILL.

Mr. Secretary YORKE moved the order of the
day for the Honk going into a Committ•e, to re-
fume the confideration of this Bill. The Houk ac-
cordingly went into a Committee, and he prop-tied
various verbal amendments which had occurred to
him on thole claufes which had already undergone
confideration. Thefe amendments were agreed tn.
On the cltufe defcrihing the power of the Com-
manding Officer of any Volunteer Corps,
Mr. Secretary YORKE obferved, that it had ap-
peared neceffary to make a potierior enaAment, and
to prefcribe lime limitation to the power of a Com-
manding Officer, as to difcharging any Mern:rer of
his Corps. It was propoled that he Ihould not have
Inch power when a Corps is called out on alas% in.
vafion, or appearance of an enemy on the coaft, as
the Corps would then be put on permanent pay, and
under military law. It was not iatended to letter the
Commanding Officer, by his calling together a Court
of Enquiry, hot to empower him to take upon him-
felf to difcharge a man when he ftw teafon for to
doing, his decilion being always fubjea to be recon-
Gained by the Crown. Tor that purple it Viaa pro-
pored to lay down, in general, what line a Com-
manding Officer was to purfue, In as to present ea-
! prate and whim from operating on his mind.—
Wherever any rules and regulations had been agreed
to by any Corps, as to this particular point, and zip_
proved of by his blajefty, it was rrcpnied that no-
thing in this claufe Ihnuld affea filch Corps.
The chide wits thus tad, as proptied to be
amended.

1J

Mr. FOX Paid, he was inclined to doubts whether
or vet the power thus given t r Commanding OIL.
was not greater than what was neccttary, when the
nature of the Volunteer fyßem was confidered. As
a Voltmeter enjoyed certain exemptions, it was un-
reafonable to leave it in the power of one individual
to difcharge him according to Fleature. He was
thereby to become fubjea to the militia, dec. It might
be aUedged by force, that this esormoos power would
not be abided, but it was well known that there are
many private caufes which may incline thole in power
to thew partiality, whet they ere allowed to execute
fummary
_Office. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
faith that roma canfes of ditmiffal were to be prefcrib-
wain she Bill, one of which, he undertioodr wits con-
attendance. He thought that tbch a ands was not
a proper one to be Rated, as it was impoffible, in
many cafes, for Members of Volunteer Corps to at.
tend, and on no occafron whatever was it palate to.
procure the attendance of every individual. As to
the reprefentation which was to be allowed to the
injured perfon fo difmilred, he would with to know
what objea or iaterelt the Lord Licu;enaot, or his
Majefiy, would have in bringing a vindiaive enquiejt
as to the propriety of the Commander's decifion i•-••
He would rather prefer the judgment of a Court
Martial than that of a Commanding Officer.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
obferved, that it was one of the many happy circum-
(lances attending the conftitution of this country. that
no Ipecies of injuflice could be done to any individual
with impunity. In the prefent Millrace, he did not
think that any injullice would pats over unnoticed.
A Court Martial, 'or a Court of Enquiry, omit con-
tra of three Officers, the feleajon of whom, be
thought, wobli tend to occaflon t 4 degree of jealoufy
and diffitisfaaion.
Mr. BRAGGE defended the chute againft the
objeaions of Mr. Fix, and laid, that it was intended
to give the Lord Leutenant the power of reioastiolg
the Officer imptoperly difiniffed.
Mr. CUItWEN thought it a great objeaion to
the chore, that the offences were not enumerated.
for which men were to be tubjeft to difmiffall ; the
Officer who commanded may, under this clouts, dif-
mifs without affigning any caufe, or allowing the man
difmiffed to make his defence.
Lord CASTLEREAGH Rated, that in the regu-
lar army there was always a power vetted in the Co-
lonel, to the approbation of the Commander
in Chief, of difmiffing any private or non.commif-
froned Officer, at his difcretion; and in the militia,
it was conferred by fpecial Aft of Parliament on the
Colonel, with the approbation of any two of the De-
puty Lieutenants. Both fides of the Monte agreed
in the propriety of a power of appeal refiding tome-
where ; he did not fee where it could be better placed
thaiin the Crown.. If any individual °mold be ag-
grieved by an improper ditmittal. be bad only to
Rate his cafe by petition to the Secretary-of State.
who, no doubt. would advife his Majelly to order a
cot* of enquiry, by whole repeat the difniffal would
either be confirmed or annulled.
Mr. FOX AO the Noble Lord whether he meant
to affert that. it was competent to a Colonel in the
lines or in the militia, to difmifs a man at his ditcre-
tion ? 'He never conceived thit filch a prat:lice Ob-
tained in either `of tilde Cervices and for this good
reafon in the line, that the ditmildl being a fpectes of
panifhment or corporal difgrace, could not ba inflia-
ed witty-rut recurring to a competent tribunal. In
difinlffing a man front the Volunteers,
ofbe was de-
prived of his right of extroption, a right too much
importance to Ire fubjea to the caprice or malice oI
any fingle individual.
• Celt. NORTON declared, that he never knew an
affanze of difmiital from the Army, except by Court
Martial or Court of Enquiry.
Mr. PITT argued againft the principle of compel-
ling the Commanding Officer to declare in every
ca,e the reafon of dilmiffel. There were certain of-
fences that miy render a man very objeftionahle,
although they were not of that defcription to call
for fcvcre repretienflon. He thought that a Com-
manding Officer would be juftified in difrniffing a
man whole charaffer was bad or indifferent, and yet
it would be very difficult to gu through all the proqf
of filch an objettion to him.
Mr. ROSE approved of the idea of appealing to
two of the Deputy Lieutenants. and of giving them
the power, if the Volunteer had been difmiffed with-
out fuffi,ient cattle, of confirming the exemptions.
but not to compel him to be again received en the
Corps.
Mr. GREY stilled that the principle of enquiry
fhould be recurred to in ALI cafes, a., well enumerat•
ed as nut ; and that in Cori a in which there Mould
he only three Officers, the Common ling. Officer
mould be bound to convoke them as .1 Court of En-
quiry, and to afford the perfon accofed the i rivilege
of Rating his own cafe. He moved an amendment
to the effea, " that the Commanding Wee thoold
have the power of fummoning a board ut crerry."
A defultory debate took piece on the amendment,
in which Meth's. GREY, Fox. PITT, STURGIS, and
Vie'veirt, were the principal fpeakers on one fide ;
and Man. Yoses, Lord CASTLEREAGH, and Mr.
ADDINGTON on the other. The fpeakers for the
amendment argued against the hardthip of a Volun-
teer who wa. improperly difmiffed being deprived of
his exemption, and fubieft to immediate ballot for
the Mania, or Army orßeferve ; but in maintaining
that. they by no means meant to infill that any ap-
peal mould fpecificaily lie againfl the Commanding
Officer. Againit this it was objefled, that it went,
it adopted, to deprive the Commanding Officer of
the power of difmifral, which had been generally
adopted on a former evening ; and that any clog upon
his ditcrztion in that refpeft would facilitate the
rniffi, n 01 improper or &antral fubjeas into the Corps,
for the good order and fidelity of which, he was pe-
culiarly refponfihle to his Sovereign and the State.
It was further weed, that in a fyltcm Poch as that
by which the Volunteers were regulated, various cit.-
cumllances might occur which would render it ex-
tremely difficult, if not altogether impoffibler
to
bring an offender to trial, and yet might be filch as
would make it the duty of the Commanding Officer
to difcharge him. There was always a fenouc rt.
fponfihility thrown on the Commanding Officer.
which would induce him to be extremely anoints.
the exereire of that difcretion with which he was en.
trolled ; and therefore there was but little danger to,
be apprehended from confearing the privilege of dal
nufTal en him.
The confine; was at length put on the amendment'

1
,y

whi:h was negatived by a majority of st 6 to tic
—For Come time after the divifion, &rangers were
kl excluded.
t After the reopening of the gallery. a clanfe was
paired, continuing in force all the rules and regula-
tions for fines in Volunteer Corps, and empowering
Commanding Officers to ordain new ones. any mem-
ber objeßing to which is liable to be cbntidered as a
oon-efetlive member.
Mr. PITT moved a claufe to empower Command.
ing Officers to put into cußody perfons guilty of i
imaibehaviour while under arms.—Pafled.
He then moved ancoher clank. mailing fines on
Members for neglea of drillovhich was negatived.
After the other claufes were gone through, the
report was brought up, the Bill ordered to be print-
ed. and to be read a third time on Friday.
Mr. PITT obferved, that on ThOrfdag next be
Should bring forward his promifed motion receding
the Naval Defence.
Mr. YORKE expreffed a defire to know (hew
thing
mazera
thort gethe nature o
neral ffuiittesmuelpir
of which
ochblil cts .
Mr. PITT 6 fi
be intended to move for an account of all [hips of
every defcription employed in defence of the country,
and which he deigned to compare with their Rate ip
18ot ,• fecondly, an account of all orders given by
the Admiralty for increafing their number fence the
war ; thirdly, an account of what had been done for
the augmentation of fbips of the line fence the lag
peace : and hilly. for the number of feamen at the
end of the laR war. and at the end of the left year.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
brought up fundry papers refpeaing the Civil Lift,
which were laid on the table.—Adjourned at half
pall twelve. .