Star.
London, England, 1818-02-05 00:00:00

This iby was published, in &Selarge Volumes. 4to. pries 61. e< l
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ICOR HISTORY OFby BRITISH INDIA. I If;
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noster-row.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 4.
Lord BINNING brought in a AU to establish Lunatic Asy-
lums in Scotland, which was read a first time, and ordered to
be printed.
A number of private Bills were received.
Leave was given to bring in the Indemnity all, for persons
holding offices, tad not having qualified according to law.
Mr. BENSON gave notice of a modal on Monday, the 24th
of February, to enable trustees sod spiritual persons to make
certain exchanges of landed property,
Mr. MELLISH gave notice, for Wednesday, of a motion
respecting Coroners' Fees.

SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mov-
ed the Order of the Day for going into the Commit-
tee of Supply, to which he moved that various ac-
counts of Exchequer Bills should be referred.—Ots
the question for the Speaker's leaving the Chair—
Lord
FOLKESTONE made some observations on
recent alterations in the mode of the proceedings in
the House, as to the manner of publishing the votes.
The change was in some respects convenient ; bat he
saw objections as to the not printineef Petitions, un-
less the printing of them was ordered)xy vote. The
printing of those Petitions certainly tended to delay
the publication of the votes. Yet it was possible that
it might be injurious to the people, and therefore he
regretted itt tendency in that way. The printing of
the Votes of the House was the only regular way in
which their proceeding: were made public to the;
country at large. He should do no more than men-
tion the circumstance, hoping that the House would
never be inattentive to Petitioners.
The SPE.A[EIt then left'the Chair ; and
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER rose and me
e 4 that there were some small increases in some .
the public charges. Of these, in the Admiralty de-
partment, some arose from expense: at St. Helena,
and on the South American station ; but all the Esti-
mates hid been founded on mature cbnsideration.—
Gentlemen must be aware that an increase had oc-
curred is point of wages to Seamen, by the employ-
ment of those of a superior description. The number
employed was smaller in proportion as to the men.
A 50 gun ship might, during war, have required
500 men, but in peace be reduced to 300 men, al-
though the number of guns remained the same. It
was proper to notice this, in looking at the charges
of ordnance. He then moved for 90,000 seamen Tor
13 lunar months, which um, agreed to ; also for
granting the sum 41611,00 a. for pay ; for 510,0001.
for victuals, ate.; and for a sum for wear and tear ;
which motions were also carried. .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER inti-
mated his intention to propose a replacement of
money ander the grant of 24,000,000 of Exchequer
Bills, and alio a further grant of nine millions. He
begged to state, that the amount of Exchequer Bills
Was now less than had been predicted by some Gen-
tlemen. It had laten said, that on the sth of Janu-
ary, 1418, they would be at 60 millimis ; but he was
happy to say that they were three millions and a half
less than that. They amounted only tb, 56 millions
and a half, and a small sum That was the
an
molec
whole amount. On the other h 't was to be con-
sidered that the funded debt had ceased 19 mil=
lions. Instead of a deficiency in revenue, there was
a diminution of public debt. He moved for the suns
of Twenty-five Millions, on the account of Exchequer
Bills issued.
___,
Mr. CURWEN made several remarks Ais •the
financial affairs of the country ; more particularly as
they regarded Ireland, where he believed the-expen-
diture had been eleven millions, while thelepannts
receipts had berm six millions. - _
________. • ••
The .CHANCELLOR of the EwXO3OiFAI:EIL made
some explanations. He wished the SeVlber AO
examine the accounts, which him to a
different conclusion.
Mr. TIERNEY observed, that there was some
difficulty in understanding the estimates and their
results. Itievharges on the unfunded debt must be
paid of. The IMMA amount of stock in the hands of
the Commissiaitteild never exceeded 15 millions.
The Right Hon: ()rodent= had taken the opportu-
nity to gave a favourable and promising character to
the situation of the Revenue ; the details of which
would, no doubt, be productive of future discussions.
Mr. CHARLES GRANT briefly adverted to for-
mer statements of his own, as tothe probable state
..
of public affairs.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,:
that if he entered upon the subject be anitillt only
snake a short and superficial statement. He bad only
wished to take an early opportunity,tonotige parti-
cular circumstances, in the view of *Pplartstitssiceis.'
—The motion was then agreed. to. . ' i,,„ , ,
Further conversation ensued, lit wit% ,
20,'" • , ...-1
Mr. TIERNEY requested to'ktursr•vfhii'ftes ilipi
amount of out-staturrng Exchequer.BiEi Us ' ~kiat.
of the deficiency of revenue? ' '.-','i -

, ••:;,

The CHANCELLOR OidieIIOCCREQUIVR cottli
rot theft exactly answer ; Wit he belie► 'not abort
one million. _ _ _

On the Cluatcriton of the Exotic:Alan's motion,l
a vote yaw payied for 9,000 000 on no.ganding Ex-
chequer Bills, not funded; also for 6,000,000 en.
Pehequer Bills for 1816, -outstanding and not, pro-
vided for. - _ -

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eb-,
served, that there was a surplus of 3,000,000 lasti
year, considering the operations respecting the re-
duction of the funded debt. The issue of Exche-
quer Bills had been 12,000,000 more last year thanl
in the year preceding.
Mr. CURWEN was rejoiced to understand that
only 3,000,000 had been added to the public debt.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the Honourable Gentleman might have still
greater season to rejoice, inasmuch as there was not
an addition of 3,000,009, but, in the true view of
the subject, a saving to that amount. The Motions
were pihsed in the Committee.
Mr. PASCOE GRENFELL then rose to take no-
tice of slight misrepresentation, which he be-
lieved h quite unintentionally crept into a Morning
Piper. object was merely to explain and re-state
his meanilt. He had said on the last night that be

considered an extensive paper currency as of incalcu-
lable advantage to the country, and that in this view
hi thought country banks founded upon solid princi-
ples, and that all other modes by which an extension'
could be given to that circulation ought to be fos-
tered and encouraged ;.but that, in order to render
that currency permanent and safe, it appeared to him
indispensable that it should be founded upon, and
referable to, some fixed definite standard, and that
gold and silver appeared to him to be the best, if not
the only standard, hitherto discovered by mankind,
adapted for that purpose. He had no new object in
view except to explain himself, and therefore should
not trespass further on the House.
POOR LAWS.
Mr. STURGES BOURNE moved the renewal of
the Committee on the Poor Laws, which he regret-
ted he could not propose to revive as to all those Ho-
nourable Members who formerly composed it. Two
active members of it had departed from this life.
One of them was Mr. Bell, the. late Member for
Glamorgan, who possessed an enlightened and in-
quiring mind, and was well qualified for matters of
public business. The other was the deceased Mr.
Rose, who had so long and so diligently distinguished
himself; by his industry, activity, and assiduity in
'public affairs, and by his general knowledge of:par-
liamentary business ; and whose loss would be felt
by Parliament and by the country. He was a Um-
tleman still better known and estimated in private
life, by his attentions and exertions in favour of entry
wise measure for the relief of the poorer classes of
society. Mr. Hall died in the prime of life. Mr.
Rose left the world in advanced years. He wished
by his motion to renew the original Committee, as
far as it was practicable to do it.
Mr. CURWEN expressed his objections to the ex-
isting state of the Poor Laws, in this country, the
operation of which, under all the circumstances,
tended. to break down the spirit of the people, by
driving them to look to the Poors' Rates as a relief
and a refuge. No representation as to the present
system would be too strong ; and in order to do good,
it was necessary toprobe it to the bottom.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT did not mean to
pose the the appointment of the' Committee. He could
not exit tly accord with what had just been said. He
did not believe that• any great alteration had taken
place in the character of the people of this country,
but he did believe that much alteration had occurred
in their circumstances. They were, in his judgment,
the same active and industrious people as they ilad
formerly been ; but they had not the same means of
being comfortable as they formerly had, from the
want of the necessary funds. As to the price of la-
bour, no employer could give more than his means ;
the question must be reciprocal, and the interest was,
in fact, the same, to both parties. It would be un-
fair to view the subject in another way. He consi-
dered the people of England as the most active and
industrious people on the face of the earth. He eiv•
tertained no doubt that the real cause of their wants
sprung' from enormous taxation. As to inquiries into
the Poor Laws, so much spoken of during the last
two years, those laws had existed for centuries, and
while the poor were in a much better condition. He
was not himself an old man, yet could he remember,
even in his own time, when a boy playing about his
father's house, that labouring persons took pride
against coming to the poor-house, and even boasted
that none of their family had ever done so. Where,
then, was a remedy to the existing evils to he sought?
It could be found only in reduction, in retrenchment,
and in economy in the application of the public mo-
ney. The nation had been thrown into immense
debt, and had had unnecessary burdens thrown upon
it, with unnecessary salaries and pensions, not for la-
bour, but for no labour. That system ought to be
stopped; and acting on such a principle would have
a more beneficial effect than any measure which
might originate with this Committee. In truth, the
enormous extent and weight of the public debt, drew
up . ,and, devoured the resources of the country.--
He said, the tendency which the appointment of such
a Committee would have, in his opinion, was rather
to delude the public with regard to the nature of the
evil, than to oppose any effective check w its growth.
It had been complained that the present system, op-
pressive as it was to the country, 'gave no effectual
relief to the poor, at the same time that it encou-
raged habits of indolence and improvidence. The
people of this country he believed to be the most ac-
tive, industrious, and laborious people on earth.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not therefore believe that
the evil originated in the habits of the people ; but
in the unfortunate state of the country, and the enor-
mous increase of taxation, which sapped the founda-
tions of our country's prosperity, and took out of
the rich man's pocket the funds destined for the sup-
port of the industrious poor. Such was the obvious
tendency of the taxes upon leather, salt, and of the
income tax. But the most scandalous of all taxes, ,
and that which affected the poor most directly, Was
the stamp-tax, and especially upon law-proceeeffigs:
This *tee ta4bieloisding legal preceedingt melt
such'eek. ty , `reedited tbe protection Etta
laws, Whieli'dtak t `rendered
be equally accessible ties*
rich.and poor, in many instances, inaccessible tO the
latter, and tlaus'reridered the best laws* of no Weil.
The &mentor Poor laws hid exitted-TOr centtiskt in
this, copetry,. bud, it, was only witAtit the last.' two
yeries that it ailiiitsel:its' preserti:itirming appear-
ance—and, Taltii ifatisottnA momsires of rigid.eco-
nosily i .141! ' eviieuditure, -the evil must eon-
dais( ta ' ' • ita, they would' find it impossible
lifitses
'to tsi+Eal itl'''llielaitouthietlasses,* he believed,
in genera WA tilt inmost estitleinince at the idea of
, buromiiieereeeeident pp t4f "beitevolence of the
public, whilst lay any stretcb of Agitation they could
avoid it. They felt themselves degraded by becom-
ing the objects of public charity, and there was no-
thing they regarded as a greater calamity, than
finding themselves obliged to have recourse to parish
relief. The Honourable Baronet concluded by saying
that although he thought it proper to make these,
observations on the subject, he had no intention of
opposing the appointment of the Committee.
Lord CASTLEREAGH remarked, that the Ho-
nourable Baronet's obeervationswere more connected
with the general policy of the country than with the
particular subject of the Poor Laws. As many op-
portunities would afterwards occur of combating
such general observations, he would not now advert
to them at greater length. He hoped that neither ,
the House nor die public would entertain the)anie
desponding views of the poor laws with the Hasa. 1

Baronet. Great good had already been done by the
Committee. The distinct and clear view which they
had given in their Report, of the various branches
of this complicated ,object, and the wide circulation
of this Report through the country, had been pro-
ductive of the happiest effects. It was not correct
that there were as many °piracies eptertained by the
Committee as there were Members. He had given
his attendance as much as it was in his power, and
bad often borne a part in the discussion—he could,
therefore, with confidence affirm, that although dif-
ferent opinions necessarily prevailed on the subject,
so difficult and so complicated, the Committee were
unanimous on many leading points. Besides, should
it be impossible to agree in opinion, or to adopt any
legislative measure on the subject, he had often Ob-
served much good to arise from the mind often work-
ing on a subject by way of discussion. The further
discussion of this subject in the Committee, and in
the House, would thus do good, by ascertaining prin-
ciples, and suggesting improvements which would
be acted upon in the several parishes, although no
legislative act should pass on the subject. He hoped,
therefore, that the Honourable Baronets desponding
represai, tation of the inutility of investigation, would
have no weight in that House, or with the public.
Sir F. BURDETT explained. He had not disap-
proved of investigation, but he had stated what
he would 'now • testate, that no investigation or dis-
cussion vtould ever afford any relief, without such
a reduction of the establishments of the Government,

aad such a rigid economy in the expeniliture, as
could reduce the enormous taxation of the country
,to a scale compatible with the fair employment of
the industrious population, and the full enjoyment of
the fruits of industry.
Mr. CALCRAFT had not very sanguine expecta-
tions from the labours of the Committee. The Re-
port, he would admit, had done some good, but no
effectual relief could be expected without the power-
ful co-operation of Government. Two points of
gnat importance and considerable nicety would de-
serve the attention of the Committee. The one was,
whether funded property should not be subjected to
poor-rates as well as landed property? The other was,
whether petty sessions might not take consideration
of many subjects at present devolved upon the quar-
ter sessions? More good could be done by country
Magistrates than by any act of Legislation. He had
heard much. said of the advantages of permanent
Overseers ; but the principal cause of mismanagement
was, that thcise who had a right to attend and to in-
quire into the system of management, in their parish,
neglected to do.so. Why did they not attend and
satisfy themselves of the necessity of every burden
imposed upon them, and detect every attempt at im-
position or peculation ?
, Lord CASTLEREAGH explained.--The Cdm-
nlittee was then re-appointed.
The SPEAKER informed the Howe that the ab-
stracts

of the poor-rates for 1748, 49, 50, formerly
ordered, were now laid upon the table,

. .
COMMITTEE ON THE omen: -SA-0.

Mr. BROUGHAM said, that seeing a Noble Lord
' not exactly in itii.place (a laugh), but on his way to
it, he was anxious to ask for some information re-
specting the select Committee to beappointed: Did
the Noble Lord intend to accede to the taropCmition
which Ile had taken the liberty to make on the first
night of the Session? Having then obtained no satis-
factory answer, he now again asked, whether the
Committee to be appointed should be furnished with
powers to call for witnesses, papers, and every ne-
cessary source of accurate information ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that it was in-
tended to follow the precedent of former cases of a
similar nature.

. Mr. BROUGHAM—Am I to understand that the
powers I have mentioned are among those usual ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH answered in the negative;
and that if any Member should propose to grant such
powers, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. BROUGHAM stated, that an Honourable.
Friend of his would, in these circumstances, submit,
a motion to the House on the subject. Friday was an
inconvenient day, he therefore regretted that his,
Noble Friend, the Member for Lanark (Lord A. Ha-
milton), was not in his place, that he might put off'
his motion, on the State Trials in Scotland, which
stood for Tuesday, to Thursday next, in order that the
motion of his Hon. Friend might be fixed for Tuesday.