Star.
London, England, 1829-03-06 00:00:00

FRIDAY EVENLNG, MARCH 6, 1829..

na Duke of GLOCCEETER preunted a Pedtkui is favour
°relit Catholic adilllS from tie Mayor and CorPt.ratlon of Porta-
mouth; said a similar oae from the Mayor and Corporation of
Gloucester.

The Bishop of DURV A M presented a Petition from the parish
9f St. Martin, is the city of Durham, against the Catholic Claims ;
and a similar Petition from the Magistrates, Clergy; Shipowners,
&t. of the town of Sunderland and Bishop Wearmouth.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presented nine Petitions
of a similar character from parishes and district, in the county of
Somerset.

The Duke of RICHMOND, in presenting two Petitions of the
same character front places in Norfolk, expressed his sincere grati-
'dation at the conduct of the F.ngiish Clergy, who were supposed
to have inducements to follow Government.
The Earl of MORLEY presented a Petition from Freeholders
of the county of Devon in favour of the Catholic Claims.
'The Bishop of LONDON presented Petitions against the Ca.
tholic Claims from the Clergy oldie Arcbdeacoory of Middlesex:
from the Clergy of the Arcbdeaconry of Colchester; front the'
Minister and Congregation of a Chapel In Bethnal-green; sosiPlesim
other places; In all'ten petitions.
Lord WHA RNCLINFE presented I Pethloo front the Lord
Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Colwell of the City of London,
in favour of the ilsolle Claims.

L The Bishop of LLANI)AVF presented an adverse Petition
7rons the inhabitants of. 'Janda".
The Karla HA RRO .11Yisresented a Pe ttit:on to femme's./ the
Claims from; L7StaYurdshire. • .r. A
The Earle ELDO prosonted fifty-Moe ?Adonis agahnefura
that cremeseires he the Roman emboli" from the t...Nwporadoe of
Lancaster; &on the bdiattitants of Litacassert from Wolverhamp-
ton ; frein three paridses In the town of Cambridge; from the Car.'
poratiooof Weavers in Glasgow frk/m che- Protestant inhabitants
of thetemn of Keady, county of Arntatb, ;:e. Ike —Ordered :o
hems the table.
h The Earl of W INCH ILS E A pos'ponea his motion for the Re.
1 tern of the number. of the Roman Catholic Clergy of Great Britain
and Ireland, &c. with the understanding that be reserved the right
of bringing it forward on a furore occasion.
The Doke of NEWCASTLE presented nineteen Petitions from
slistrVu on.l parishes in Yorkshire. Denbighshire, cod Nottingham-
shire, against the claim;of the Roman Catholics. •
The-Kari of SH A FTRSBURY presented two similar 'Petitions
from pluses in the county of Norfolk.
The House adjourned at HALf-PACT Snag O'CLOCia
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

So early as ten o'clock in the morning, the staircase leading to
the gallery was blocked up by persons waiting for adMisslon into
the House, and they :entwined there nearly In a state of suffocation
tin the doors were opened at six, and then the tu.h to obtain seats
was tremendous. More than one half of those who had been re-
maining all the that in a state of anxiety were then compelled to
go away disappoluted, the gallery having beeh filled to an over-
now In leas than two minutes after the order for opening the
doors was given.
Shortly before fear o'clock, the Senates attended the House of
Lords, to hear the Royal Assent given to the DM for the Sup-
pression of Dangerous Associations in Ireland. On his return the
Roll of the House was called over which occupied nearly an hour
and a half, and at six o clock precisely the doors were opened to
strangers, when we found
Mr. MANNING presenting a Petition from Warminster in
favour of Catholic Emancipation.'
After the Petition had been reed, a load call for Mr. Peel pro.
ceeded from all parts of the -House at once, and continued for
some tima, until •
Mr. Secretary PEEL rost, upon which a deep silence Mime.
diatrly was observed; and the Eight Honourable Gentleman pro.
ceeded :o address the House to the following erect " Mr. Speaker,
I rite to MR.m that that part of his Majesty's roost Gracious
Speech which relates to Ireland, and recommends the consideration'
of the state of that country with a vie* to. the renting of civil
disabilities, be now read." *
The motion 'having been put and seconded. the MTh of the
Mime read that part of the Speech which was tube the subject.
thi:ter of the Right lion. Gentleman's propositions.
The state of Irolattd has been the object of his 3dajeuy's con-
tinued solicitude.

'- His Majesty laments that in that pan of the United Kindbni
an AOSOCieltloll thUilld
esittwhich is dangernus to the pablle '
peace, and incoiisistent with the spirit of the Constitution, which
keeps alive discord and ill will amongst his Majesty's subjects, and
which moot. it permitted to continue, effectually obstruct every
effort permanently to improve the condition of Ireland.
.1 tits Majesty confidently relies on the wisdom end on the sup-
portoif hi, .earbamenc; and his Majesty felt astisred that you
Will commit to-him ouch powers u may enable his Majesty to
maintain his just authority.
" fits 11ajesty recommends that, when this essential object shall
have been accomplished, you should take Into your deliberate con-
sideration the whole condition of Ireland, and that you should re-
view the laws which impose civil disabilities on his Majesty's
1 Roman Caliche subjects.
" You will consider whether the removal of those dirahilitim
can be effected con • ently with the full and permanent security
of our Establishments in Church and Stare, with the maintenance
of the ltetortned Iteligion estabUthed by law, and of the rights
and privileges of the Bishops and of the Clergy of this ItCaltd, and
of the Chinches committed to their charge.
" These ere institutions which must ever be held sacred in this
Protestant Kingdom, and which it is the duty and determination
al Ms Majesty to prea;rve inviolate.
•' His Majesty most earnestly recommends to you to enter upon
the consideration of a subject of such paramoiint importance,
deeply interesting to the best feelings tit bit peopfi', and involving
tje tranquillity ant . concord of the United Kingdom, with the
temper and the moderation which will best ensure the successful
isoUr of your deliberations."
Mr. SecretaryPFALL then went on as-Toliows: Sir,
I rise, as a Minicet 01 the King, and with ihe just au-
thority which belongs to that station, to %indictee the
advice whiCh has beep given'to hi, Ma)esty by united
ialinet—(Loud aes of " Hem, hear ')--to introduce
into his gracious Speech to Parltameot thatfeCOrninclf4
da,ion as regard to Leland which his been just reed,
anal t subin.t to the consideration of the House the.
means by %%hide the Goveronseut propose is carry his
Mikity s gracious recommeodation into 'effect. I rise,
sn the visit of peace, to propose the adjustment of the
•Cisibolic question—of that question which has occo-.
plaibe attention of the Legislators, and di tracted the
Caesar's r f the King's Cabinet for now nearly thirty
years.' I propose ter di.cuss this question in the spirit
enjoined in one of those beaUtiful prayers by which on
tins, as on all other occmiciiii, we auspicate our pro-
ceedings in this Howe, and by which we ale enjoined
'.o lay aside Al private interests, prejudices, and par-
tialities, and may GOD grant that, in the'words of this
prayer, " the remelts of our Councils on this day may
tend to the maintenance of true religion, and the safety,
honour, and happiness of the Empires; that they may
teed to the security 'of the, public wealth, peace, and
trauquillity,and to the uniting and knitting in the bonds
of true Christian charity the hearts of all classes of the
people of this country." In approaching this great
question, I feel overpowered by the magnitude of the
interests which are involved in the result—by the diffi-
culties which I know are to be encountered in the course
upon which I have entered. Nor am It ignorant of the
extent to which 'those difficulties are increased by the
situation of him upon whom it has fallen to propose
these measures to the consideration of the House. But,
through all these discouraging circumstances, I am
supported by the consciousness that I have done my
Juty—and fulfilled the obligations of that soleinn oath
which I hate taken in my capacity of a responsible
adviser of the Crown, and which -obliges me, in all
MAIMS which may be treated in the Cquncils of my
Sovmeign, to declare openly sod faithfully according
to ray heart and conscience, and the best of my abilities,
my opinions upon the questiuirs which may be submit-
ted to my consideration. Acting upon the spirit of this
hiked Oblisodoo, I wow declare that the time is new.

Almle when there is less of danger to the general in-
Wests of this empite, as well as to the spiritual and
Ifettiporal welfare of the Protestant Church itself, in at-
.temptings no safe principles, an adjustment of this quest
'lion, than in any ct':er course which I could suggest.
On a -former occasion 1 made this declaration, and,
Nrpon a careful reviei of all the circumstances of the
erase, 1 now deliberately and fiaedly adhere to this de.
wiaration—unchanged by the sew rility and abuse which
have been, thrown upon me—unchanged by the for-
feiture of Malice) confidence—unchanged by even the
heavier loss of private friendship. This being so, when
'option was given me whether I should abandon the post
Which I filled, or give a proof of the sincerity:of my
principles by consenting to be the advocate in Polio-
ihent of the measure which 1 recommended to his Ma-
jesty, I thought it my duty to proaose the measure in
this House as the Minister r t the Crown. Whether I
'Wit back upon the past, or•take a survey of the pre-
dot, or glance forwasd to the prospects of the future, I
thk time arrived wt e t an attemrt must be made to
'effect the adiostment-of • this mi•St important question.
,I*ave been flailed upon to ors. tae nut a ca e in worm'
rot the propons which 1 sliAlt submit to the House;
and to declare. the reasons -why 1 now recommend a
measure .which is
.in apposition to the course which 1'
formerly, pursued upon tt.is sitliject. That ease lam
now abort to stare, for the nut pose of attempting lead
convince those who differ front me upon this subject,
and f,r the satisfaction of the people of this country. I
know' that I speak in the presence of a House of COM.
mons of which a majority has already consented to mea-
sures of the same nature as those which I am about to
propose_l know that this House has before consented to
this measure on highergrounds than throe on which 1
place it—l know, therefore, that it is not necessary for
me to address any arguments to those who have advo.
toted this measure with a view to &vetting tlwevils and
ensbarvassmeors which, in their judgment, must flow
from loavino this great question an open subject of
discussion—l know that to address any arguments to
Honourable Gentlemen so circumstanced must be en-
tirely unnecessary; but. no the performance of the task
which 1 have to execute, I pa / less attention to personal
objects, and endeorour to satisfy .the grea' body of the
people of tuis country that, whatever their opinion may
be upon the subject, there is more of evil than of advans'
tage in attempting to continue in the course which has
been hitherto pursued. I hope that the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite will bear with me whist I state
the reasons of the proposed changes—reasons which
have carried the force of demonstration to my own
mind. In an abstract point of view, and without any
reference to practice,. there is much advantage in a con-
sistent and uniform system; but • when a public man,
responsible for the public in.eiest and security, is called
.upon to act in such circumstances, he most determine
how •far-lie can with safety push the principles which'
he ehteiteins with sincetity, and whether, in carrying
-them to a certain extent, he may not hcendangering
.the existence of those institutions which it is the object
of his principles to preser.e. If he should then, upon
mature. daliberatio... be of opinion that to persevere in
• asserting his for m. r principles would be rather injurious
than advantageous to the ohj-cts for which those prin-
ciples had. been .lapted, le is no inconsistency in his
abandoning his former croirse, acid it even bee •rnes his
duty to advise snea-ore. opposite to those sc hich he may
have firmerly recomm.ende 1. lam now about toad-
diess myself solely to the practical consideration of the
case. Ido not mesh to_arose the question upon any
aostract considerations, or upott any di quisitions con-
cetaing the theory I f gneernment. tut to propose t to
grounds on which Is as an actual of the Crown,
bsve come to the conclusion that much greater danger
would follow from advising a continued resi lance to
the concession of the claims it the Roman Catholic',
than from recommending a deliberate attempt to tate
the question into consideration in a view to a final and
satisfactory adjooment. Lour that to the arguments
which I Shall adduce I shallhave the. attention of my
Honourable Friends. These arguments ale. entirely
founded upon a view of practical considerations, and
confess that I am anxious to see what answer can be
given to them. The outline of roy argument is this—
that we are placed' in a cond tiro* in which we cannot
)remain—that something most be done—that we cannot
terrain stationary, ivid that the evils of a divided Legis-
lature and a distracted Cabinet hate now arrived at
such a height.that they cahoot any longer be bottle.
Tpicia my tiro position—thst.. out' present situation is
untenable. Supposing this fist p opositionao be este-,
bitched, my test is—that an united Government can
pursue one of two courses, and only one if two. They'
must either advance or recede-.they must tither grant
further privilegt s to-the Roman Catholics, or take away
the privileges which have been 'already panted—oey
,rsiiist.either ',nise the bailers which have been erected
tar oppose. the influx of Roman pathac, to political
power, or they must roll back' the eatrent which had,
sot in with a power which could not be resisted with
safeta.to the State. I have been asked, what new light,
has Shone utroo me in reference to this subject? I have
',/sejn askt-d, why, in 1825, 1 rec..mmended measures
diffetent horn those which 1. now recommend.? lam
-toldahat there is nothing new in the circumstance of a
-difference existing between both *louses of Parliament;
Ithat, .as they 'have differed- without danger at ether
-times, they may do so now ;JO that such a difference
,if therefore no reason 'for the measur es to he introduced.
But are reasons in politics always the same? and do
they always produce the same effects upon other Tiro
cumstances which have undergone, considerable altera-
lions ? Are political- events and principles like quanti-
ties in number and mathematicsor like moral truisms,
'always the same? The recurrence of the same sort of
'events often took place with different effects,. and led to
very different events. So far as my personal conduct is
concerned, I can state that, in 1825,. when I was a
Minister for the Home Department, I was in a min°.
;icy upon the Catholic. Question in this House. I felt
this, at least, to be the case, that my situation as. 141.;
nister was untenable. In the oboe which if held 3
was charged with the admioistration of the affairs
of Ireland, and finding myself in a minority on chit
question, which, in reference to the stare of that
country, was-the most important that could engage
my attention, I at that time aought .to be relieved
from the responsibilities connected with my situatihm
I at that time told my Noble Friend (Lord Liverpool)
who was then at the head of the Goiiernment, thatsMe
thing at least must be done, namely, that I should be
relieved from the respoßsibilities of office. It was upon
that occasion notified wino ;but pi retirement. Unlit

.•• •

1

4.* .

~,..

PAMIR SEVIMPBII.I.

-,..5.
office would lead to the retirement of my 14jobjekten
•. 'l°
and that this would brodi up the, whole adnuntstration.
I should wish to have been spared the. nocessitra
making any reference to this correspondence. However.
I am ready to submit it to the perusal of any peison
who chooses to inspect its and the fact and .uhtedli.is,
as I have said, that it was on that occasion represented
to me that toy retire:neat horn office would brea4.up
the Administration. .1 now admit that f was wr.mg,in
not acting upon my own views of. proprirly end.Aine
duty, and that I might
.at that time have, r. tired koni
office. But my Noble Friend was then riser the t.rerti...
nation of his political existence, and I•c,infe.sthat I
shrunk from precipitating his retirement by mustier of
mire. I, therefore, in compliance with the suggestions
to which I have below alluded, consented to wait for
the issue of a proposition to be made upon• tne snWet
to a new Parliament, which was elected in igcs That
Pediment, in 1827, decided, by a considetAhle..**
jot ity, against the consideration of
_the Romancatherse
(Lyndon. In 1828 a different view utak fatten.* the
sae by this House, which passed, not certainly rail,
taptA.Resolution, in which they recognized. the wept
principle of the measure. 1 then said th .t the seep of
04 country, as iepresenfed avid expres ed by the Hose
. •Akttisions; having been clearly and decidedlytex-
piessed, and the general disposition of the people fairly
mew • , I stated Oat as consideration whatecer
yin should nduce me to remain office for-the putty se of
eed
giving any obstruction to the measure of C at linlieEman-
leipation. Last yetr.for the first time since the Election,
libis Hou e of Commons decided in favour of the toss.. 0 t
of Ca holic Emancipation. To anticipate the cruise
Which the House would have purseed was not eashani it
was most painful to be obliged t.i act in oppositiusro pre-
conceived opinions, and to separate one.elf f o.n froinds-
who had been long cherished. The events of ..the last
six weeks will easily coevince any man of the difficulty
and distress which must Attend such a separation,- but
I can say, in the language of Dryden—. ..
44 Ms easy said; bet ob 1 how hardly tried"
Bat I see no inconsistency in taking now the course which
'I was prepared to take in 1825, with this addition, that
I then told. my Noble Friend at 'the head of the Go-
:ferment that not only sholld fretirr frim.office upok
a conviction of the Necessity of conceding Catholic
Emancipation, but that,. seeing the course at public
opinion, as represented and expressed in she .Hoosu of
Commons, I felt my'self bound, as an horte*.eneSl.: dot
to place any obstacle in the way of the measuse.frem
whatever Government it may proceed. This constitutes
the only variation between my conducs:upon, Oast est-
easion and that which I have pursued at presara,l was
then, as now,teady to sacrifice, to the attainmeed.of so
great an object, the pleasures of friendship ansi_that re•
potation of consistency ; and, after the events of the lest
Session of Parliament, I. was prepared. to sermon, the
measure, from whatever quarter it shoulJ ,otaxinaats.
provided .that it should be brought forward in seals t
manner as should ensure • the stability and 10 41411.7 #
,the Protestant church. On a f rater occasion 1 slesal;a4
the communications which bad been made IA nre.lol,o^
the state of Ireland ss resulting from she positionpf this
question—that all social intercourse was interruptadro-
that the fountains of justice were poisonmlsthat the
facts were the same that had existed for twenty feit(s:
and that, therefore, the gr ands which .I. stased.meie
not sufficient to, support those measures. Sot itiviee-
cause it is the old story—it is because the same cvls
continueJ to exist, whilst we have been unable, an Alio
course sae sere following, to devise any Jena* :for
them—this is the very reason shy I think we. cinnot
,persevere in the system which we have so loos &doom!
I...this is the very reason why 1 contemplate .seithlletis
;reluctance the change of measures which
.1 propose..
What has been said upon this sullen mat be asogeinst
me an argument's ad Imminent; but, whilst 1 admit the
force of the sarcacm as against myself, I deny thin fit
can be admitted In art argument against.thetconel
settlement of this question—(Hear, fear, heat)...Tke
point, therefore, which I at present urge is, that jut srhe
familiar hut emphatic language which had heettaddsee-
ed to myself upon th* occasion), because it is the old
story, therefore do I feel more strongly-the oecessity4
effecting some adjustment of it. This is one ni, she
main grounds on whit!' I propose to rely in vindicati•o
of my conduct. I now approach the body of my al-
guments. Throughout the whole county a sgertersia
voice has been raised Upon this subject, and. heaever
opposite, the conclusions to which they base cornea
believe that I only echo the centime-us of all lemon:Ns
,men in the empire when I say that somethiug *rustled
done. I shall 'not call urn the House to go %vodka:le
to any, period mote, remote than it is usual t refer to
in this House. , I only ask them to look at use G ,yero.
went of this country for the last thirty-five yetis, and
to Observe the bearing which the cli•sentions upon this
question has had upon-the state and administretimoof
Ireland. I then ask therin to consider the distrActroOD
, whith made it necessary to permit this Catholic ques-
tion to be in the Cabinet an open question. I then as%
the House to consider what the course of Parliament
' has been upon the question, and afterwards to take a
view of the effects which these divisions in the CA RA
and iti the Parliament have produced upon the Goi erno
ment of Ireland. I now a4c,- ieferring to all that I
have stated, whether things can remain as they are, or
an attempt ought to be made by an united
nt to conduct the affairs of -Leland on the
sail principle which regulated the adrninistratio kf
etrei* other part of
.the empire? The disunion iri
the Government upon the subject of the Roman
Catholic question has existed for thirty-Eve years,.
When Mr. Pitt took the Duke of Portland and -Loy
Fitzwilliam into office, it was on a principle of a dfe-
egreement amongst themselves upon this question.--
Mr. Pitt was at that time ready to make an ur.qualified
resistance to the measure, (but he took the Duke.' of
Portland and Mr;-Wyndham into office with him, usui
Lord Fitswilliam wet ant. so Ireland upon a distinct.
understanding that a difference eziatedin the Cabinet
upon the subject. From" that time until now the Ca-
binet was dividedopon the ;Objeit. Lord Fossil:lam
went to Ireland in. 1704.. 110801 Mr. Pitt's tiorreru-
meat came to a specific resolikjion upon the point. Mr.
Pitt diedin.lBo6, and aretmeceeded by another Go-
vernment. That GOiernmeat iq about 18 mconthi came
to a terminatiou. On whet ground? Ddferencessehont
the Catholic question. Mae serCalso in the shot eh,
tenet to which I bare' referred, three' chan.gs- i; the
Government of, Iceland, The removal of Mrs Pitt 44
1801. aoil the rentosat of Lord Mentille and E ralGr try
in 1897•Ai alt oa-aCtossat ash* Catholic titsesooua.,
In 1897 14 ralesurel entered opon the adminiettasitia
• • .
.- - • -.7.. ! rids.Nas.. . . *

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