Star.
London, England, 1819-03-09 00:00:00

attempt had been nude ice induee.lite deltitiapt to
offer a compromise, arta to'ltibniii hiinsdf to the
costs, *hie% were the grand object. Yet he cateopoe
out of Court safe ; for the casts amouhtedto £.827,
which, as the Crown in no instance pays the cost:,
necessarily came upon him.• Indeed, it was-held out
to him as a solacing teseence, that hecould.piesecute
the %an for peijury—(4ear, hear.)--In his opinion, it
would be better it charges for such offences were.
made before the Commissioners of Excise, who would •
have it in their power to modify the penalties. . The.
expenses of prosecutions amounted to thousands an
nearly. Under the conviction, therefore, that he had
said enough to call for inquiry, he should move for
a return of the numbcr.of Excise and Custom Infor-
mations filed in the Court 'of Exchequer, between the
Ist of January, 1818, and the Ist of January, 1819,
distinguishing the convictions by verdict, from those
by, compromise, as well as the costs incurred by the
Solicitor of the Excise, and by. Defendants.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he did not
think he should have opposed the motion, if it were
not for the speech with which it was accompanied.
The Honourable Gentleman had attacked the Com-
missioners of the Excise, the Solicitor of the Excise,
and the humble individual who then had the honour
to address the. House (the Attorney-General). He
had stated, that prosecutions were begun and carried
on in the Court of Exchequer with no view to benefit
the public, but for the purpose of loading individuals
with costs. But he (the Attorney-General) had con-
ducted the prosecutions in that Court for the last four
years, and if the Honourable Gentleman intended to
insinuate, that he had ever considered the costs, not
on his own account, but account of any oae—if he
meant to state, that he had any other view in carry-
ing on such prosecutions but for the protection of the
revenue and. the public ?room the frauds of smug-
glers—or that of relieving individuals under pecu-
liar circumstances—or compromising in cases where'
the penalty was heavy, he was actuated by any
other motives than the public. good, he must tell
him, before that House, and he called his GOD
to witness the truth of that deelarazion, that such
an imputation was false 1—(1-1e7r, hear, • hear.)—
These were Charges of such a nature as should not
be brought forward in the British House of Com•
mons, where every thing that occurred went forth,
as ought to he the case, to the world (Hear, hear!)
unless they were founded on nornethieg more than
vague conjecture (Hear, hrar, hear!) The Honour-.
able Gentleman was a professional man ; but he had
surprised him (the Attorney•tenerall that night, by
a declaration which seas contrary both ter the law.
and the constivioe. He had said, that these causes
should be tried either before the local Magistrates in
private, or by the Commissioners of the Excise. Ile
would be glad to know by what law this could be
done? If a man is prosecuted as the owner of a ship
engaged in a contraband trade, he must be prose-
cuted in 'the Conrt of Exchequer. If enfthing was
seized, it must be recovered in that Court. The per;
son from whom it has been seized came into that
Court for redr. ;s, and his Majesty's Attorney-Ge-
aeral was bound to file an information, 'upon which
the Court proceeded. Here was another point to which
the Hon. Gentleman objected—filing informations.
He seemed to confound them with those Which were
called ex-officio informations, but they were totally
distiNt ;' and the former *ere no other than the
method ih which the Crown brought actions to re-
iCover debts. If he (the Attorney-General) brought
an action to recover a debt, he should, by.his attor-
ney, A. or B. complain to the Court; but when the
Crown brought an action, in consequence of its high
'dignity and authority, it only informed the Court by
the Attorney-General ; and this must be done, nn-
;less frauds, such as were every day practised against
the Revenue, were alloWed•ta go- unpunished. He
leromu not say that mistakes were never' made in
rCrown prosecutions or verdicts had for the defen-
dants, but during the whole time he had carried on
these prosecutions, the verdicts given against the
Crown were not one in the hundred—(Hear, hear.)
Wherever the least doubt was entertained by the JUry,
he always wished the defendant to have the benefit
,of that doubt, and often allowed such doubt to ope-
rate in his favour, where lie was well convinced in
his own mind a verdict should be had for the Crown.
By a law of George the First, a writ of Habeas was
to be issued by the Barons of the Exchequer to seize
the person of the man against whom information
was laid, yet not one writ of this kind had been ever
issued without an of having been previously
filed in corroboration of the information, and sworn

before cne of the Barons. Unless some severity and
strictness was exercised in the'discharge of the laws
against smugglers, it was probable the Revenue
would be destroyed, for there was nothing in the
power of human in.venuity which was not done to
•
elude them. The Honourable Gentleman had quoted
two or three cases. The first was one in which the
health of the lower orders, who were the consumers,
as well as the Revenue, was at stike. And in no prose-
cutions was he so anxious to convict as in instances
like that addnced by the Honourable Gentleman.
It was tsue the expenses were great ; but a person
should only be the more careful not to incur them.
In this case, a man who only lent his name and his
money to another, was prosecuted for selling vege-
table powder ; the penalty was 1:109, and because
he pleaded his ignorance of the transaction, it w
compromised 'on his paying £3O, and indemnifying'
the Croivn. Another was that of a small bre.vet.
Those small brewers were in the habit of giving, it'
their daily beverage to the people, the most daete-
rions mixture. The great and respectable houses
were injured by this practice, because, when they
furnished good and wholesome liquor to the retailers,
those small brewers furnished them with this mix-
ture, which was mingled with the good, and both
were sold to the unfortunate consumer` under the
name of the reseectable how. The third case was
that of a tea-dealer. lie was prosecuted for two of-
fences, selling adulterated tea; and vegetable pow-
der for coffce. And here he (the Auorney-General)
felt called on to say, that in no instance where the
article was seized and produced was there ever a ver-
dict given against the Crown. fn this case the
dealtir was acquitted on the charge resPectint,
tea, because the Jury did not.belieVe the evidence
the Crokn ; but he 'woks foupa guilty ,of seT
vegetable powder for eolropohl tketuie Lie artoci
stilhal been fortunately 'Oro**
the Jurj 0:KOJI= *4)F, Mr,*
The ganouribk lop • e

. .
of Catdsofftploya . Vieteitedre five ,C.ottnsel, the I such severhies, the House was berm] to interpese its
Atiorneysarsd',diiliciiir4tairal two ring's Counsels , authority, .and prevent th, abuse. He supposed
and a Junior Counsel. Neither he nor his Right Edo.: the motion would be 'granted, (Cries of No, No.
and Learhed Friend could be always-in the Court of . from the 2Vinisterial side) at least the words of the
Exchequer. It was therefore necessary that the Crown Learned Gentleman seemed to favour such an dpinion,
should have learned.and able met in that Court to for he had declared in express terms, that he would
carry on these prosecutions in their absence. • With probably have made no ()ejection to the motion if it
respect to compromising; he assured the house that were not for the speech with which h was accompa-
he often wished he had discretionary powers in this nied. Perhaps, however, the more the speeches in its
.respect; for nothing could be more difficult, where favour, the greater his disinclination to comply. —(A
the penalty was heavy, than to affix that which should 4sughe—The Gentlemesi on the other side. bad come
be exacted, so that it should have the effect ofpunish- to the .discussion prepared with every thing but -
rea-
ment, and yet stop short of ruin. It was often his sons—they had all the machinery and apparatus of
misfortune to be obliged to prosecute a poor wretch debate, excepting only the arguments.—(A laagh.)—
for whom his heart aches In such a case he always It was to be hope4', howeyer,that they would conde•
endeavoered to find ten who was behind the 'curtain, scend in time to sheer what inconvenience would at.-
that he might, as he could not reach him, so propor- tend the paseing of the motion, for, on the other side. e
tion the penalty that the merciless master might not cases of hardship were made out hich had received
allow the miserable instrument to rto jail for it. no contradictions-e(heqr, hear). •
Mr. WAITIIMAN guarded against the possibility TheSOLICITOII-G E a:1:'1 AL defended the course
of any thing which fell from him being misconceived adopted by the Attorney-Geller el, which he contend-
by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who, ed was called* n- by the mode in vshich the Motion
he contended,
.had not answered any of the state- had been brought I.)rtvard. The motion did appesr
meats made by the Honourable Mover of the ques- to cast an imputatien upon the Lase Officers of ti e
tion. He gave his testimony to the merits of the Crown, and if the Attorney-Gees:sal displayed any
lion. and Learned Gentleman—he had long known warmth it was exensuble ;no green.' had been laid
him, and believed him to be made up of kindness for the motion, and it was not for the 'reuse to graiii
and mercy towards all, always endeavouring, as far motions without sedieicnt cause. Ile then undertook.
las his duty permitted, to soften the severity of the to review the these cases aliesed bf the Mover, and
laws. But he had mistaken all that the Honourable contended that in none of these transactions could
Mover had-said. The attack was net against indivi- any blame attach to those who usually instituted pro-
duals, but against the whole system, mid the Learned ceedinge in the Exchequer. He then adverted to the
Gentleman had used no other, argument to its de- case stated by the Worthy Alderman (Waithmae), is
fence, than that it was such as be had found it— which the Honourable Meniber had been personally
(Near, hear.) He had said nothing_ respecting the concerned: Proceedings, it appeared, had been inea-
, enormous expense which -attended Exchequer prose- toted against the Worthy Alderman for having illicit
cutions. He had contended, that no injustice was goods in his shop, aficlehe asserted that those preceea-
done to individuals, because only a necessary duty ings had been founded in the grossest perjury.. If
was fulfilled, that of carrying the law into execs- such were the case, why did riot the Worthy Alder-
don. But -he had forgotten to state, that'a person man proceed 'against those perjured conscirators
eval dragged into the Court of Exchequer without against his property and character, at law? It was
knOwieg for what offence, when it had been corn- true the Worthy Alderman might not he cognisant of
se
witted, or who was the informer. He then detailed the fact, but his partner, or some person connected
his own case, in which an information had been laid with him in his business, had introduced into his
'against him on account of a piece of India haudker- house illicit goods—(Mr. Waithman here rose, but the
chiefs, which had never been in hid house, and the cry of " Order" n;sts so general, he sat down). He did
value of which was not . above thirty shillings.-- not proceed against the ccnspirators, but with the
The penalty demanded was £2OO. Let the ll,cnour- advice of his Counsel, he compromised the matter,
able and Learned Gentleman, who was so strict in and actually paid gloo.—Dlr. Waithman intimated
certain cases, look round him in Courts of Justice, that he had spoken of another transaction.)—Then,
and he would see, nay mast have seen the Judges pull- continued the Solicitor-General, there were two cases.
'log India handkerchiefs out of their pocket. Let him Alderman WAITIIMAN said, he was sorry to in-
then do his duty, and not suffer the King to be terrupt the debate, but the Honourable and Learned
robbed—(Laughter.) For ix months before he (Mr. Gentleman was mis-stating the entire transaction—
Weidman) had heard any thing en the subject, it (Hear,• hear, hear). A servant had brought into the
had been rumoured that he had been exchequered to }house a piece of handkerchief, for the accommodae
the amount of £20,000, and these rumours had been tion of another person, privately. This was seised
the causeeof much injury to him. At last informa- by the Excise, and he was induced to pay £lOO and
tions had come against him to the amount of £2OOO costs to the amount of £150; but the other charge
or £3OOO, and he could not find out who had given .brought against him he had resisted.
the information, nor what articles were in contem- ThiSOLICITOReGENERAL said, he was very
elation. The cause of this was, that a latitude of three unfortunate in the facts of the case—(Neer; hear, and
years was allowed to lay the' information, and it Much laughterfroat the sition). He was prevent-
was done when all inquiry must prove fruitless.— 'eel from proceeding fiat: by
He had memorialized the Commissioners of Excise, The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, who rose and al-
oud obtained a compromise, by which the penalty luded to a second proceeding which had been insti-
ad been reduced to 1001. but he had his own costs tutted against a house in trade, of which he said Mr.
to pay, to the amount of 1501. So that he would Alderman Waithman was a member.
have saved 501. if lie had suffered the Original penalty. Aldermen WAITHM AN said, the facts, as stated '
to have been levied upon him. The Attorney-Gene•*; by the Attorney-General, 'were not correct.
Sal had then abandoned the other informations, de- The SOLICITOR-GENERAL again rose, and else
claripg that he was ashamad cf the whole.—rerei served, th .t no ground had lasen laid for the motion,.
`the ATTORNEY-GENERAL said across the table " I which, as it irrputed Lamle le the existing system, he
was convinced that there was a fraud, but that you should oppose.
:yourself were ignorant of it."3—Mr. WAITHNIAN re- Sir M. W. RIDLEY said the last speaker opposed
sumed. He contended drat the goods were not con- the motion because it went to impute blame to the
'traband, and only mentioned the cue to sheik how Officers of the Excise. For drat very reason he would
:an innocent man might be ruined by the mere ru- support it... He should do this, because the character
mour that he had been Exchequered to the amount of a most respectable individual (the Solicitor to the
of 20,0006 He maintained that the laws on that Excise) had been called:in question, who lie was sure
' subject ought to be reformed, and that reform was would court inquiry into his conduct.
only opposed because it would deprive many indivi- Mr. WILLIAM SSIITII would state -three cases
duals of half their fees—(Hear, hear).—He knew with respect to winch application had been made to
nothing-of the cases mentioned by the Honourable him, and he had made application to. the Treasury,
Mover, but that they had been attended with enore for whom, he must sae; that they had shees-n every
mews expense. If the abuses complained of existed, disposition to listen and 'to admit their error,—
the production of the Papers moved for would not be The Solicitor-General 'had ;aid, that the Crown had
necessary. If they did not, it became Government never offered to compromise hut in Court. The first
to bring them forward to make their case clear to the case he had to 'state was that of a house of large
public—(Hearehear).—But so far from having come credit, which was charged with a penalty of 1,5001.
to any decision on the subject, the Honourable and or 2,0001. " I (said the Honourable Member) being
Learned Gentleman had sat down illithout saying consulted, desired them by all means to inform the
whether heishould vote for or against the motion. Solicitor of Excises (not the present), that they set
Mr. TIERNEY expressed great surprize at. the him at defiance. ' The Solicitor offered to compro-
angry tone with which,his Learned Friend (the At- mise upon payment of costs. No, said I, by no
torneyeGeneral) had met . one of the 'clearest states means. The whole was dropt. If the house had
.ments he had ever heard.. It seemed to he a warn- been that of. an inferior or smalt dealer, it must have
ing to those who disapproved of any existing system, sunk under this charge."—(Hear, hear.)—The nest
in what measured terms it was neceisasy for them to case was one which his lamented friend (Sir Samuel
speak, in order to avoid the wrath of certain Gene Romilly) had put into his hands. Sdme small dealer
tlem,en, and to prevent their attack upon the system. in the west of England paid 30/. penalty, and 901.
I from being tortured into an aspersion upOrt indivi- odd, costs. Upon - this case he had seen the briefs,
duals--(Hear' hear)--He had heard nothing in the and large sums had been charged, he had himself
speech of the Honourable Mover . that coup bear in seen it, to four or five Counsel—(Hear, hear:)—Those
the most remote ' degree upon ;he conduct ..of the abuses ought to be remedied. Such fees to Counsel,
Learned Gentleman, or represent him in.anyother if charged against an individual, were cruel; if
light than as a conscientious officer of the Crown, against the public, they were a scandalous waste of
anxious to discharge his duty to the Public...He had public money. The last case he would mention, and
imself listened with great jealousy to the speech of a cruel case it had been, was that cf a very ingenious
the Honourable Gentleman ; it was right to do so, manufacturer in Yorkshire, who had diecovered a
.il
because-every attack upon a system rested on an est- new mode of manufacturingemalts. When his =-
parte stasement ; but though he had listened with nufacture had arriated4sit a certain degree of, perfec-
.Jealousy to the charge, and waited patiently for the' tion, the Officers of Luise seized upon it. He en-
answer, no answer was given. It was much to he treated that they would not remove the materials,
lamented that a great degree of rigour was neces- but they carried them all away. The Treasu;y, con.-
sty to the maintenance of those laws. Unfortn- vinced of his innocence, ordered all to be returned;
-stately the condition of the country required a heavy but they were returned incalculably. diminished in
taxation, which could net be collected without great value. He died of a broken heart, ;laving ie vain
rigour ;he should not therefore object to the sys- solicited restitution cf his property. The Officers
tern, unless it appeared that unnecessary semi- were, justified in law, but it was • a cruel abuse—.
rities had been exercised under it—(Hear, hear):—. (Hear, hear ;)--Suttansum jus, :untrue ijuria 1 •
The Honourable Gentleman .who brought forward The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the motion had stated instances of meat unnecessary that in the case referred to by Mr. Smith, the pro-
expense and hardship to individuals, and not one of pertyof the unfortunate man bad been seized by the
these cases was contradicted or explained. Here the Excise Ofificesa. in the ordinary discheree of their
Honourable Member recapitulates' all the cases in- duty. His property bad been restored, lot no repa-
iroduced by the Honourable Mover, from which he ratiou could be made for the injury be had' sustained,
inferred that inquiey was necessary. -The last case in and not
.the- nitaitegaiaroe attached to the parties'
_ _ .
IBV:liiiie had nothing

information'
present frtithes:
wOultd "otettif.
thp order con-

er a vet--' inferred that inquiry was necessary. Abe last case in
.and not rue smallest uame, attacnect to the pa
the tea-1 which two informations weretommenced at the same concerae4 iu the seizure. 'Biritrii'ais case hair not
ring the time for one offence, he insuinced. as a trick. to. in- to do.with. the present raolitin... •
lence for .crease law expetes.. lie_fully.acquitted the. . Mr. LUSHINGTON oppfeed the motion. *
selling Gentleman of any inotiae of the. hind whenever he information might have Is4*(oly4iiid4l44l the
tide was concerned, but some ,Orli!tn interested in these tiontitae 'Gentleman call 3, for .specitit inform
art, and: iensaipments mutt haVe MeW Ott.. NiPif elte lOW.. on s ific -cases.' than the Ogden as at present frit
f *O4 Islip complained of pitglicliita imam+ apolusi eat Iwe patiduce, thot to eenvi,itrivitS wt
ft uld `oc:C
numbeisiortbe system, but If it could be carried op. without 'the Clerks of the Department to which the order