Star.
London, England, 1816-03-26 00:00:00

THIL SETINATES.

Mr. W. WYNNE moved that the Paper before the
House, respecting the late appointment of Sic 'l'.
Thomson, should be printed. In order to bring s
subject before the House, he gave notice that on an
early day he should move for a new writ for Roches-
ter. While on his legs, he wished to ask the No,le
Lord opposite if fresh Estimates were to be made n
the several heads of expenditure, in ►the ruvm of
those which had been withdr4wn I
Lord CASTLEREAGH said the object of his

•

'7"IP-

'Noble Friend (Lord l'Jlmerston) in withdrawing the
Estimates, was to take :,n opportunity of shew#o.g, in
connexion, the amount of tie reductions to be made
• in the course of the present year. In some of the
&hates which had taken place. he (Lord Castlereagh)
tnought he had deprecated the disposition shewn by
sciiiiklrThe-Gentlemen opposite to consider the Esti.
mates as a part of the pm manent.peace establishment,
or ever try consider the expense on thein, as that
which was to cnntinue througho-ut the present year.
It was the wish of Government. to make immediately
all the reductions which could he safely effected in the
- first instance, as it was their hope to bring forward
.Estimates materially different in point of expense in
•aI entre year. 'taut in consevence of the disposition
h id been manifested to argue on the Estimates
the expense on them were to continue through
'•.-* the while 01 the present year, his Noble Friend had
to withdraw them, in order to chew them the
various items before the year expired. It was intended
to let the House see (as neatly as this could be done)
what would be the expense of the end of the year.. as
well as that of the beginning. To'accornplish such
• a task with all the vigilance tha could possibly be
exerted, it was obvious the inquiry necessary must
take up soma considerable time. A part est the re-
ductions contcm?lated, from local circumstances,
could not be completed at the commencement of the
year. The object of his Noble Friend, he gibbed it
to be understood, was to .hew the House what changes
had been made, what were now making, and what
would be made in the course of the present year. The
House would be enabled to see how long some of the
expenses which appeared on the Estimates would con-
tinue. It would be seen whet ''ere to remain tot
_three or six months, or what For a longer period. In
this respect the Estimates to be produced would go
further than those. which had been already before the
House. ' •

Mr. WYNNE expressed satisfaction at the altered
shape ot those Estimates. The course pursued after
the peace of 1763, that or 1733, and that of 1802,
had been to produce estimates for the first, seconi,
and third quarters of the year, in order to enoble the
House to judge of the reductions which it was pro.
posed to make. He could wish this had been done
on the present occasion. He begged now to ask, ii
any view would be given in the new estimates of the
number of General and Staff Officers, and Officers
ot the Ordnance, serving on foreign stations, :is had
been given of those serving at home ? It this were
done, he should move for similar returns of the
slumber of officers serving abroad in 1792 and 1803,
that these might be compared with the present esta-
blishment.
Lord CASTLEREAGH hoped the Honourable
Gentleman would postpone his motion for the present
till his Noble Friend had brought forward his Esti.
Mates, when be (Lord Palmerston) would take an
opportunity of desciibing the reductions to be made
on the Foreign Staff in the course el the present
year; and he did not foresee any objection nn the part
of the Noble Lord to the production of the returns
alluded to. With respect to the returns tor the first
three quarters of the year, which the Honourable
Gentleman wished for, lie did nut see that these could
be given, but those about to be brought forward,
from the arrangement lie had described, would, he
apprehended, answer his purper.
Mr. WYNNE postponed his motion for the present.
Mr. BENNErr moved for Returns of the Dates
of the Recorder's Reports, distinguishing the time
which had elapsed from the several convict;ons up to
the period nt their being made, since Itnuary 5.
1811; and also a similar Return of the Repo, is made
from January 5, 1790, to January 5, 1795.-or.
dered.

Mr. LUSHINGTON, seeing. an Honourable and
Learned Gentleman io his pace, begged to ask him
if he had any objection to postpone his rootion which
stood for to-morrow, respecting the execution of
powers granted to the Treasury by the .51th of Geo.
(li. cap. 171, to mitigate the Customs and Excise
Laws ? The various papers connected with the sub-
ject, which he had now moved for, were not yet ready,
and some of them could not be produced before
Wednesday.
Mr. BROUGHAM was nawilling the Motion
should be further delayed, more especially as his
Riglit Honourable Friend had given notice of a Mo-
tion for the only open day in the present week. If that
motion were waved, he should have no objection to
comply with the wish of the Honourable Gentleman
opposite.
Mr. ESTERN reminded the Hon. Gentleman,
tl at the Commitve on the Agricultural Distress of
the Country, stood for Thursday. He had hoped
this would be suffered to take precedence of die Order
of the Day.
Mr. BROUGHAM was sensible of the para.
mount importance of the subject just referred to. If
the Hon. Gentleman did not think it might be as
well to pit off the Committee till Monday, he would
wave his motion, which he had proposed to fis for
Thus& y.
Mr. V YNNE and Mr. LUSHINGTON offered
a few words on the subject.
blr: BROUGHAM complained of the delay in
presenting the Papers which had been ordered to be
laid before the House on his motion ; but at the same
time he begged it to be understood, fiat he was quite
ready to proceed with his motion even upon the
papers which were already before the House.
Mr. LUSHINGTON observed, that the neces-
sary time had not been afforded for the printing of
the Papers, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
not moved for them all on the same day. He referred
10 the House to know whether, in sorb circumstances,
it would ba decent for the Hon. Gentleman to press
his motion ?
Atter some further conversation between these Ho
nourable Members, Mr. BUOUGUADI finally find his
'notion for Tuesday eennight.
On the motion of Mr. FORBES there was ordered
to be laid before the House, a return of the names'
and number of officers of the army, receiving pen-
sions tor the loss of limbs or for wounds, specifying
the nature of the cases, the amount of their pensions,
'and the date when they commenced. Also an ac-
count of the deductions made from thb half-pay an:l
pensions of wounded officers in the wily. The likr
accounts were ordered, on the motion of the same
Honourable Gentleman, for the Navy and Marines.
A Petition was pre.iented. from the-town. (*bikes-

ter against the Noperty Tar, which was read *3
ordered to lk on the table.

NO NEW TAU%
The House having resolved itself into a Committee
of Ways and Means,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
rose.—lt was not his intention to take up any large
portion of the time of the Committee, as the pro-
position which he Wished to submit to it was very
short and simple. He would therefore confine him-
self to a short explanat:on of the nature of the mea•
sure, which was eb►nt to propose. The House
would reeqllect how, the various branches of the
Customs' Asti Excise Duties had been augmented
and applied duting the war. They would also re-
collect that,. during the later periods of the war, in
the years 1807,1809, and 1811. the expenses of the
Loans had been charged upon these war taxes. It
was, therefore, highly important that the Consoli-
dated Fund should be rendered equal to bear those
changes permanently. This would be best effected
by continuing those war. taxes already appropriated
for.this purpose by the vote of Parliament. He,
therefore, now intended to propose, that the War
Taxes under the heads of Customs, should be car-
ried to the Consolidated Fund. to defray those ex-
penses incurred during the war. Considerable addi.
tams had been made to the Duties on Imports, Ex-
Potts, and Tonnage; but these. with all- the other
War Taxes, as they now stood, would, by the exist-
ing act, expire in a very few months. It was his
intention, at the proper time. to propose to the
House, some modifications in the Duties on Im-
ports, as he believed they were those which might be
made permanent with the least inconvenience to the
public. With respect, therefore, to the whole of the
War Taxes under the head of Customs,- he intended
that they should be made permanent, and carried to
'the Consolidated Fund. But with vegand to the other
great branch—the Excise War Duties, his intention
was to keep them separate from the Consolidated
Fund ; and although he did not foresee any exact pe-
riod when they could be given up. yet he would not
propose to declare them absolutely permanent. By
keeping them separate from the Consolidated Fund,
they could, 'rem time to time, he brought before the
!louse, and receive such modifications as might be
thought convenient. For the present,' therefore, he
should only proi o e to continue the Excise War
Duties for a period of five years. At the same time,
fie must say, he saw no early prospect of being able
to give up those Duties. He had some measures in
contemplation, for the purpose of repressing smug-
Wino, which he hoped would have the effect of
making this branch of the revenue considerably more
productive. It was not his intention to propose aay
continuation of the additional duty on Malt ; and,
in consequence of the cessation of this duty, some re-
gulations would be necessary for the convenience of
the trade, with a view to the repayment of the duty
of the stock on hand when the Act would expire.—
There was another reason why it was advisable to
separate the Excise duties from the Consolidated
Fund, arising from the loss which would be occa-
sio►ned to the Public on the amount of the current
duties, from the way in which the taxes going to the
Consolidated Fund were paid into the Exchequer.—
l'he whole estimated amount of the war Excise
duties, deducting the additional Malt Duty, was
ae3,Boo,ooo—that of the Customs, 2,760,000. Al-
though he would not now go into any general finan-
cial statement, he might mention to the House, that
although they had thought proper to reject that
system of finance which appeared, in his judgment,
to h:• the best, yet he had no intention of attempting.
to substitute any new taxes to replace that of which
he had beet deprived, nor to provide for the expenses
of any loan. He should, therefore, attempt to de.
tray the expenses of any sums which might be bur-
rowed in the course of the year, in such a way as to
prevent any material pressure upon the money market.
With this view, during the present year, it was most
desirable to take nothing from the Sinking Fund.—
Having given such short explanations as lie thought
were necessary, he would conclude by moving the
Resolution to which be anticipated no objection. The
itesolotion was then read—" That it is the opinion of
vie Committee that the several duties of Customs, di-
rected by the Act of the last Session of Parliament to
be continued till the sth day of July, 1816, be fur-
ther continued 'and made permanent."
On the question being put,
Mr. TIERNEY said, that all he gathered from
the statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman
was, that having been driven by a decision of the
House out or his favourite post, he now intended to
supply the deficiency by attempting to impose new
his:Oleos upon the public, but to defray the•expenses
of a loan by modifications of some of the existing
duties.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that he had certainly stated that he did not mean
to propose any great measure of taxation, but to de-
fray the expense of such sums as it might be neces-
sary to borrow, so as not to charge it upon the Sink-
ing Fund. It could be done therefore by the modifi-
cation of some of the existing duties. He was sure
the House would think it best to keep entire the
Sinking Fund ; and when the question was as to the
preservation of the Sinking Fund, they were at least
bound to do so much for the support of the public
credit during the preient distress of the country, as
nut to touch that Fund.—(Hear, hear).
' Mr. TI E RNEY.—As they were not now going'
into the details of the Budget, he did not feel himself
called upon to give any opinion on the general state-
ment of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He could
only say, that he was very happy to find that the
Right Honourable Gentleman had not carried into i
effect that terrible revenge, with which he had threat-
ened the House in the shape of new taxes, in easel
they dared to reject the Property Tax. (Hear, hear).
It now appeared that this threat had been a mere
brutuaa fames f and he would say this of it, that of all
the propositions that he had ever heard, it would
have been the most foolish.—•(Heor, hear, hear).—
As to the question now before the House,. he saw no
objection to making the Customs War Duties perma-
nent. It was an arrangement from which he thought-
no inconvenience could result, and it was one to
which the faith of Parliament was pledged by its
votes, as to the limns during the war. As to the
other branch of the revenue, the Excise, it was fOr
the present only intended to continue the War Duties
for five years, and the annual prodece. of these (in
round numßerk) ens adulated at You millions. Un

this subject there was as old battle between himself
and the Right honourable Getitleman ; and he still
Maintained that, with regard to this part of the sub-
ject, the Right Honourable Gentleman did not lock
the situation of the country fairly in the face. He
had no confidence in any contemplated arrangements
for the prevention of smuggling, as none of those
which had already been adopted, and which, before
they were actually tried, had been declared infallible
—nay, the increase of the revenue to be thereby
made calculated upon in the Ways and Means for
the year, after all had entirely failed. How canld
any arrangements be good against smugglers who
calculated that they could have good profit by saving
one cargo nut of seven ? He could not therefore
agree to allow the Right Honourable Gentleman to
'carry-on for five years an experimental warfare with
smugglers. It would be better at once to appoint a
Committee to inquire into the subject, for the purpose
of supplying themselves and the House with the ne-
cessary information. He begged the Right Hon.
Gentleman to turn, this subject in his mind.
The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER-
-He begged positively to disclaim the imputation
contained in the first part of the speech of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, as to a threat of imposing. new
taxes in case the Property Tax was not continued.—
No such threat had ever been held out by him.—
What lie had said about it was, that in the last ses-
sion he had proposed certain additions in the assessed
taxes, part of which had been agreed to by Pat lia-
ment ; and as to the rest he had said that they coil; i
afford no adequate substitute tor the Property Tax ;
therefore lie pressed the Property Tax more earnc-tly
upon the House, because there was no tax which
could, in his opinion, be substituted for it. The war
excise taxes formed the most available branch of the
revenue which was left, and he certainly did think,
notwithstanding the opinion of the Right Honour-
' able Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), that by vigilance
and activity much might be done for the repression
of smuggling, He eves hoped, that by some arrapge-
ments which were intended, in the way of increasing
the power of the revenue officers, that. it might almost
be entirely put an end to.
Mr. PONSONBY wished to observe, that so far
as he understood, they were now to proceed upon an
opinion. that exactly the same amount of expense was
to be incurred by the country, as had been proposed
before the decision of the House on the Property I'ax.
So tar as he understood, the Loan was to be exactly
the amount at which those Taxes had been estimate I
which were now given up. He wished to know it
if he was accurate in thus understanding the matter?
because if it was not intended to incur the same ex-
penses in the shape of a loan as in the shape of taxes,
he should be very happy. But he understood it was
not so; that no diminution of expenditure was to be
made ; that a loan was to be made to the amount of
the taxes discontinued, the charges of which loan
were not to be defrayed from the Sinking Fund, but
by the modification of certain ta::.es.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
The Right Honourable Gentleman had certainly un-
derstood him rightly. The question of expenditure
WAS one which must rest on its own grounds. If
Government proposed any expense which was unne-
cessary, as soon as it was :hewn how it could be
avoided, they would immediately give it up. It was
the duty of the House to watch this ; but he di,i not
anticipate any greater reduction than had been al-
ready made. It was equally the duty of the House
to watch, and of the Government to correct, any
thing in the expenditure which could be avoided,
consistently with the safety and interests of the coun-
try. He did allow that a loan might have the effect
of encouraging expenditure in the Government, be-
cause it was a mode of raising money without any
'immediate pressure upon the country; but be yolked
that in the present iestance it would hare no such ef-
fect upon tire measures of Government ; that it would
not prevent them from cutting off any expense which
could be avoided with safety to the nation.—(Hear,
/sear, hear.)

Mr. PO.NSONBY said, that as he had rightly un-
derstoOd the Right Honourable Gentleman, the case
was shortly this—that the country must still stand
under the same estimated expenses as those proposed
at the commencement of the Session, and there was
to be no diminution whatever in the supplies.
Mr. HUSKISSON.—It appeared to him that the
Right Honourable Gentlemot who spoke last had
confounded two things no less distinct than a Cone.
mittee of Supply and a Committee of V.ra-is and
Means. The duty of the House of Commons was to
watch the supplies. When these were granted, it
was then for the House to consider of the Ways and
Means for raising the Supplies. The Right Honou-
rable Chancellor of the Exchequer had entertained
and expressed a hope that the expenditure of the
country might be diminished to the extent of nine mil-
lions, and he, for one, was sorry that this hope had
been disappointed. As to the Supply, the House, he
was sure, would listen attentively to any Honour-
able Member who would point out what reductions
could be made. But when the Estimates had been
voted, it was, in his opinion, inspossible to meet the
expense in any better way than that proposed by his
Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer). He would ask the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite, whether he conceived that, in
the present state of the establishments—when reduc-
tions were making as fast as possible—whether there
was any way for providing the sums required for the
expenditure of the year better than that which had
been proposed ? The 'ordinary revenue was certainly
not sufficient. A loan, or something equivalent to a
loan; was the only wise pian.
Mr. PONSONBV observed, that he must have sat
so many years in the liouse.to very little purpose, if
he did not know the difference between a Committee
of Supply and a Committee of Ways and Means.—
What he had said was this—that the amount w/iLli
the Finance Minister had calculated upon receiving
from the Property and Malt Taxes, he now intended
to supply himself with by means of a loan. Now, as
far as he understood the argument of the Rigid Ho-
nourable Gentleman who spoke last, it went to this—
that since the whole nine millions could not be saved,
they were to save none.— (Load cries of Hear, hear !
front the Opposition.) There was no question that the
ordinary revenue would not cover the expenses of the
year : the amount of the loan was the question.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the House was not
now discussing the loan. It was not in a Committee
of Supply.

Mr. BARING thought the tweet it
sideratifit for the Home at present w,
alchroion m ids by the Chancellor of
quer, that becaur^ the =inure had rtj
and most oppri.lqive tax, he vow,

something sro-uld b: made to WIT, an.
adulated a measure to preysinjutiottsly
Lc credit. The Right Hnn. Gentlen.
last insisted that those st ho now LA:
mistook the Committee of w,,y; and
Committee of Supply. Now what w,ts
plained of in the system cf Aiini ter.
House was made lint to vote the so:
looking at the means of the country to
an expenditure, which w.ss trade an ..!

lion in the Committee of Ways and M
contrary to all the roles of prudence;
practice of every private individiri!,
any wisdom in the elm 'gement of ha

looked to his means before be res

expense. How could the floit,e look „.1
of sense at estimates wail it knew !Ina m,
tty could afford ? It was now svcn that

could not be voted without having rtc,,ursr
intolerable tits on the one han.:, or a rtr!asure to ifi.
jure the pu'?lic credit nn the otaer. Holvevei,
was this result farm all that had been statej by
rite
Chancellor of the Exclleper, th.tt h. re gas 13%4,4.
tion fir the country brit tit.lo,.,king at vie
with a conviction that retrenchments we;eab,dute;
necessary.

Lord 'CASTLE R to'‘. CH apprehended
'zt Ma.
Oita the lhoperty Tax cootinue.:, or 4 !cart ors, 0,
vided, the sante necessity for eo n• my ;,i,it4,1:T.1-,
lie admitted that the (loos: ion of eipeadlotte
reduced to the narrowest c,,mpn.s.
Bdt it must also he taken wish retcria ce to the %t 0..
of the country, and its ultimate stew ty. The Noee I
Lord here protested against the gloomy sot, of t,,
resources of the State, in which smoe persnos jug
Red, and pointed out the great naval and military re-
duction which had already taken place. T.
banding of the second battalions, the dissolatim cf
the Militia, and other reductions. It had beta
asked by a Right lion. Gentleolan opposite, vnael
an account of the increase or diminution in cetoia
offices would be Lid on the table, which, by Act cf
Pailiamento should he presented to the House once
before the 25th of March ! This paper world be
presented in the course of the night ; but that paper
would 'afford no great satisfaction to the House; ter
that account being made up only to the sthof ja,
nuary, did not, of course, include the reductions
made since that date. Another reduction would alto
take place about the sth of July, and one of sto
greater extent subsequently. He, therefore, aeuit
move for the production cf a parer, whab won
disnlay at- one glance the whole amount of sarine,
and he doubted not that the House would we
very con,iderahle. No one would more readily con.
cur than he would in every scheme of mint eco.
nomy, such as would be consistent v.ith the dignity
and safety of the country ; but he deprecated the
idea that our resources v:ere exhausted, or that the
distresses of the country, however severe they mtv
seem at present, were such as could prevent this ere it
Empire from supporting a station suitable to be
greatness, or from supplying the necessary expeows.
He hoped the House would, in enterien into no
question, bear with it not only a strict regard to a
just economy, but also a consideration of that IVA
due to its character, and take care not to sactiftcc its
serious interests to a comparatively trittng
use. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 'Firm))
has contemplated, in rather gloomy colours, the
continuance of the duties proposed by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, as being inducive to a system of
smuggling ; but it was sufficient for the Home to
watch over their operation, and not remove duties
ac-
knowiedged to be productive, because by possibility
they may give encourgemant to smuggling.
Mr. TIERNEY could not bear to hear the Noble
Lord make such comments Ott the expressions th.it
may have fallen from that side of the House, as to
represent them drawing gloomy pictu:es of the oat
of the country. Their woids could bear no such
sttuetion. But when the is:Ale Lord and hi, oil-
leagoes began to talk of economy, it was but proper
to spew bow little they intended to practice it. lu his
mine!, the Member for Suff ilk (Mr. Gt och) had dnae
more for introducing economy into the ex;:enditure
than any other Member of that House ; for in a lon I
tone of voice, which, if spoken on the Oppoiitinit side
of the House, would have been termed clamour by the
Noble L. rd, the lion. Member fir Suffok declaie.i,
that nukes economy were seriously intended, he mill
no longer support the Ministers.—(Nair.)—And as
the Noble Lord begins to tind that place and ecoin•
my go hand in hand, it is not improbable hut thit
tear of losing the one may induce him to practise. the
other.—(Hear.)—Toe Noble Lord asks, "Are ;lies:
estimates intended for the year ? Do we not tell yon
that a great reduction will woo take place, lone
fore the expiration. of the year ? The House was clod.
lenged to go into the Comm itt ee ion the estimates, and
was pr, matoa to have every item saiisfactoray es•
planted. The Noble Lord said, 66 I tall prove to yon
that all is right," and now the Member for
has proved that all was wrong. The Noble L the!'
said, " put off the Estimates for anotloa %seek, aid
we will bring you down others that will delight your
' heart."—(Hear, hear, luar.)—" But before halt 411
nour is past," said NI,. Tiernoy, 6‘ Mil L.n
the Navy Estimates, woat t.:e NoOle. Lord's noutas
of economy are. IVe are also promised a pilPtlt in
which it will be seen, that in the Treasury out-guiles
alone, of the last year, there was an increase of
41(1 0(10. 1 will also move for information relative
to another £6,000 continued charge. Ot that torn
however, the Noble Lord says, 6 Don't TtliaJ tt--
Lout) bless you, that paper was drawn up thra
rnorths ago, ashen I was extravagant ;—(Crres
kar, and iauglifer) —but now I am become sr)
mist, and hi do wonders.' But will the House suf.
ler itself to beguiled by such a promise ? It t ha' dis•
covered aq economist in the Noble Lord, I congra•
tulate it on its discovery. Much of his economy is
not to take place until Ole aith of July, about the time
of our rising ; but if the House really expects wino•
my, let it press on the Ministers. I shall repeat a
motion which I made last year, fo: the reduction of
the third War Secietary—(Hear)—and if the House
g
doel
doubt not but we shall at length obtain what we
holds
itson dtlutety in a wayaffections which hasoftlrecountrgyiv.en country—(Hear, skteraornig)
so much desire, and what the country so much stands

hapaititlve
WAS IN Inn,/ D'
fit the Elk,.
;to 1 :to tar% • au
tikP cnte thit
nd- til-refore it "
r tip).• the peil. be
oan tpait
ea of 4 Loi; bt
?I^Ats feri cb
rno.t t) ent,
, WAS, that uIF plit whin;
o supp.ol el
leans. Thi. *4
cunti3r7 to th r who, he he
S alTay
to iocur
with Any de.Atee.
rnllell the
t ,h-sceritrta.el

•
floodf_a real aid pertbanent system of oe-o.v
( *fir blur
C.
sgrTH sp,ke in favour of referring the
pare of the finances, and the necessities of the coup.
t cpmaree, as recommended by hii Right
tHryo,o.l' .Fri cad ( Mr. Tierney), and which bad also
been sanctioned by the highest precedent—that of
Mr. Pitt. Such Committees had, under his auspices,_,
been formed in 1786, and in 1797: These prece;
deists should at any period have considerable in-
inoie, but in a time like the present, of severe dis-
tress, they should be imperative.
Mr. THOMPSON conceived that the Chancellor
f the Exchequer proposed to meet the charge of the
Loan by certain new taxes -on the imports and ex.
es. The interest of the Loan would thus fall
principally on the Merchants; but as one, he would
serer bearing that burthen to the Property Tax.—
to also understood theft the Sinking Fund would
not he touched. This he considered as extremely
lonotageeus for any infringement on that Fund
wog be attended with a bad effect. He trusted that
economy would be seriously practised, as to that
alone ;he nation could look with confidence for ulti-
mate relief.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
wis very happy that the Honourable Gentleman op-
posite had given him an opportunity of again stating
his intention of not touching the Sinking Fund, which
he would be enabled to effect by proposing some mo-
difications on the Custom Duties to meet the expenses
of the Loan.
Mr. GRENFELL said, that a considerable dimi-
nution of expenditure had been expected by the coun-
try, and yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer was de-
termined, if he could not raise the Supply by the Pro-
perty Tax, he would by other means. He desired to
learn whether the stock of Malt on hand would be
allowed the benefit of the remission of the war duties?
He also asked if it was intended that the country
should participate in the advantages resulting to the
Bank of England by the proposed continuance of the
Rnuiction Act ? Those advantages were to the
Bank no less than 8800,000.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
answered, that with respect to the Malt, it was his
intention to introduce a Bill for repaying, after the
eat lay, the duty that would be advanced on stock
in hand; but as to the Bank, he would not that the
fl use sAuld ter a moment entertain the idea of
sharing in any proits arising from the restriction of
cash payments. If that restriction were continued
from political motives, it would be wholly below Par-
liament to take advantage of it. He assured the
lionoinahle Gentleman, that his Majesty's Ministers
required no stimulus to economy, but would be
guided in ewey thing by what was due to the interest
of the cottony, which he well knew was not so ex-
hausted as not fo be able to bear the necessary ex-
penses of the public service.
Colonel WOOL) complained of the great • severity
with which the Horse Tax pressed on the small Far-
mer, the amount of which exceeded that of the Pro-
perty Tax. Every working horse was charged 175.6 d.
and if by chance ti;.: farmer rode him,
be WAS :loin
charged is a riding lorse, and a groom yeas ad.!ed
to clean.him. He hoped that though the Act might
bear this construction, that if it should be continued,
sae might be taken to prevent the extreme severity
of its operation.
Mr. MOORE expressed his surprise that the
Chancellor of the lisctieeprer should have brought
forward only a partial statement in the Committee
of Supply. The cnintry had just concluded a war
in which the enormous sum of 1500 millions had
been expended. lorpr;ri's shoull be instituted how
these sums had been expcolod. By such we should
hav been enabled to command the whole world, and
ultimately it was by their operation that we achieved
the great object of the war-I.)r not 1.1 '!* own feel-
ing',
but English,money, congregatcti t!re N aions
oi Europe iu defence of their own rights. 1-ic had,
rinse the c.,mwencement of the war, deprecated its
tentinuance, tor he knew it to be v-agml. not against
French ptuicipies, or jacobinical sys!cms, but against
reformation 'n our internal !whey. To this point
as the count!) aoato returnee., and ire hoped th.tt
totting woul,i prevent the I-I nose +run undertaking
that important ;dinar. He again condemned t
Chancellor of the 1... l ache uerfor etrat ti. al
snernent to the House,
ri and conchal, by strongly
etlorcinG the
lt.ycessity f a severe and .:riot economy.
be!r. hiN contended for the nezessity ofitin
g the Excise Duties, as the only pr4c:ic,l • .
draining the Dotillers, who would then bt: enabled
b_yettd ..sithe il a wholesome unfair trader and smuggler in the ma.rhet,
and palatable liquor.
The Resolutioni was then put and carried.
" :Pk: (LI: then resumed the Chair, and the
report
at or•lert.d to be brought up I,_:onotrow.

T

BUPPLY.—THE NAVY EhTI',fAVES.
The CHANCI7I.LOK of the EXCHEQUER
"(fled that the 11, ,use resolve itself into a Commit.
nOl the whole House, to consider further of the
bln A
ply to be grtted to his Majesty ; and that the
a"TE,tim4tes be referred to the same. Committee.
ltr. TIERNEY rose to call the attention of the
Ibase to a pint, which, in relation to the promised
._BY4tla of economy, would afford a much better cri-
"Hun than the Army Estimates, to what,the Noble
lelltrt opinions were on that head. He would beg
e first to impress it on the House particularly,:
"4 the Proposed Estimates bear no relation what-
"so the naval service of the country, that is, of
the number of men necessary for its defence ; and,
!"eett, on that point every one felt, that after poi.
Ing the vo:e on the Army Estimates, the number of
be'men Could not with propriety be reduced below
PmPosed number; but the present Estimates
"re Ilr't the slightst reference to that, they included'
he cwt( eiptntitture merely. To examine, therefore,'
he
the promise of economy, so freely made by
ae Noble Lord, has been realized, it would be neces-
lary to compare the present Estimates with those of
leo-1814, the last year of war, and •in that
cntliparispa there should app ro. an increase, instead
as diminution of expenditure, he couceived it would
de full tirne for the Holm to consider the subject
tiait
their most serious attention. This, he observed,
71:4'htto omthing to the Right Hon. Gentlemau oe;pb-
, the she would watch his countenance, and from
T4natiollll in that, estimate the progress-he
vite r on. ILI make in his statement. The Estimates
vii utt7itle.i under different heads, in each of whicb
ezimlue them ; again premising that in
110414 u
ct.—tue utunbsr of meat was Jahoetber
•

• •
omitted. from. • the question. The first item was the 1 apes to rote, were not of this •ehats eter. Tt was '
Admiralty. The estimates under ibis head were, i true that great reductions were co itemplated in the
for the present year, 461,229. From this he knew course of the year, but of these it was impossible to
there would be a reduction of £l5OO, the. proposed • make a just calculation at this 'wield, and thereflwe
increase of salaries to the Admiralty Secretaries, the many of the charges were taken at a rate which
result of a former
,night's debate. Of this XlOOO would hereafter be materially diminshed. It was
damage would fall on an Hon. Gentleman behind i true, as the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated;
the Noble Lord (Mr. Croker), and five hundred that the civil departments of the Nosey were taken at
pounds damage would fall on another Gentleman a much larger rate than in time of war, particularly
(Mr. Barrow), who was not a Member of the Hsuse. the clerks in dock-yards. This was to he accounted
He must condole with these Gentlemen for their for by the natural increase of business which took place
having suffered this proposed addition to go to the in the dock-yards, from the number of ships which
Committee, where they might happen not to find were laid up in ordinary, and the necessity of clerks
their salaries. The estimate of the Admiralty, in being employed to receive these stores.--(Hear.)
the year 1814, was ein 1,756, fbr which there appeared, He trusted, upon the whole, however, he should be
/trim facie, a diminution of about £lO,OOO, but it able to prove that the Estimates produced were taken
would be material to have this sifted, and it would at the lowest rate at which they could be taken, con-
be found that the real diminution was £923, arising sistently with a due regard to the interests of the
too from the transition from war to peace, and not country. To effect this, he thought the best course
from any circumstance; over which the Board exer- he could take would be to go through the Estimates
cised any contront. Of this apparent diminution of as they presented themselves in the papers betore the
ten thousand pounds, there was under the head of House. The first head was the Public Department.
stationary for the hydrograplier, a saving of three The vote under this head in 1815, was £193,000—
thousand peunds, because the return of peace Ten. that now proposed was €1a9,000. Here, therefore,
dered the former expenditure absolutely unnecessary. was a saving of £lOOO. This saving would have!
There was, for ordinary stational'', a saving of five been much greater, but for the increase of the-salariesl
hundred pounds, which necessarily arose from a dimi- of clerks which had taken place—a subject which ile
nution nt seamen, but there e: as to be seen no saving would not now discuss. Use next head was the
in &tail, from any exertions of the Board. In Bibles Foreign Yards. The reduction in this case was
and Testaments, and fees to Counsel, there was a but trifling ; yet the House would recollect, that
saving of £lOOO, arising also from causes similar to it was impossible to reduce these with such r Ti-
the preceding, making altogether about 49600, diry as to produce any very great saving on the
leaving a saving of about ae923. This was the whole face of the present Estimates. He desired to
difference of expense to the country in the large state, however, that it was in contempletien to
Department' of the Admiralty;—and he could not reduce, in iota, the Establishments at Madras and
but congratulate the Noble Lord on the progress Bombay. In the Mediterranean, reductions would
he had already made in Ms new system of economy. also take place as quickly end as extensively
If the Estimates of the present year were compared as the service of the country would permit.—
with those of 1804, the case would appear stronger In Antigua, Halifax, Jamaica, and Bermuda, such
against the Ministers. The Estimates of the Ad- reductions would likewise be made as were consistent
miralty in that year, the fast of the war, amounted with the maintenance of our naval authority, and the
to 5e43,900 ; so that the enuetry is worse off in the safety of the public interests. Tie third fie.ad WAS
first year of peace than it had been in the first year that of the Victualling Depart:nee t, in which consi-
of the war.—Hear, hear.) —The Wry Office Esti- derable dieninutions rvere also Laid; g place, and per-
mates of the year 1814, amounted to £81,109 ; titularly s: Dover, where the establishment was to
while in the present year they are Je84,1(39, exceeding be totally abandoned. Upon the Lubjtlct of outports,
the former by more than £3,000. That sum web he had to remark, that Harwich was to be given up
undoubtedly of no very great importance, except as entirely, and many other v.:allot-Liz:al arrangements
a comment on the Noble Lord's economy; but corn. were under consideration. 01 the subject ut the in-
pare the present estimates with those of 1804, and crease of the salary of Clerks of the Admiralty, he
the difference will be of some more impertence. lii had hoped that the Order in Council under which
that year they amounted to £4OOO, leaving .an in. that increase had taken place would have proved
crease for the present year or ,031,000. No very satisfactory to the House. It was a subject which
flattering comparison between tee first year of war had lung been under contemplation, and had been
and the first year of peace—(Hear, hear.)—This lie sanctions) by many Members on the opposite side
thought. made out' a case, to COMpei the Worthy of the llouse. The excess of half pay was easily ac.
Baronet opposite (Sir George Warrender) to shew counted for by a reference to the number of Officers
some reason for so strange an alteration. The paid off—and the increase en the Superannuate,
Navy Pay.office in 1814 was £44,(x0; in the ere. List was justified by the Order in Conned of 1817:
sent year it moulted to £4.3,86e, less than the With respect to the building and repairs of ships,
preceding by about £1,035. There was a saving which certainly embraced a very large item of expen-
of postage occasioned by the peace of 45.000.-- diture in chase Estimates, this was to be traced to the
The Victualling Office left a small balance of £42e, arduous services in which our ships had been ea.
against which were set eft a saving in postage; but gaged, and the damage which they must necessarily
wherever a saving arises, it is not obtained by th b tee sustained. Another reason for the magnitude
enntroul of tie Board, flut from same causes neces- of this charge was, the transfer of the building of
sarily operating in the cessation of the war. It was ships of war irem merchants' yards to those of the
unnecessary for him to enter into details, for the King, a transfer which, Lad it taken piece sooner,
House could itself refer to the necessary stare:n:nte would have been proluctive of a Living of many
He then proceeded to draw general comparisons he- milhons to the cow •: y. (Hear, hoar.) At the con.
rween the Es.insates of both years, under the ditfea clusinn of the American war we hail 28 ships of the
rent items, and sheaved that die amount of the present line and ;it Ireettes building in merchants' yards,
year exceeded that of 1811, by at least £29,000.
whereas at toe conclusion of the late war we had hut
After such a statement, lie asked, was another word 1 one sm tit sixth-rate in that s:tuatien. He confessed
necessary ? If teose facts were not satisfactorily ex- the course taken by the Right Honourable Gentle-
pleined, would the Home for one moment entertain men (Mr. Tierney) had placed him under very can-
those Estimates, on the face of which there not only sidereble embarrassment ; yet he trusted the House
appeared no saving, but .tn actual exceeding of would agree with him in thinking, although his
ii 20,0!):;? This could net be done away by ergu- statement was net of that clear and conclusive
mein or reaeottine, it must be met figure by.figure. mature which the case warranted, that tl:e Estimates
It would require one of the Noble Lord's longest were no more than circumstances would fully justify.
set-ec!ies to escape from the difficulty. It might be The Honourable Baronet then referred to the works
said that the Clerks' Salwees should be increased, but carrying on at Sheerness. and at Plymouth, the im-
he would net listen to such an argument in a moment portance of which he said was. such, that it was of
of such generel distress. He would tell them to go the utmost consequence to the welfare of the n ivy to
on as ths.y had don?, and, strange as it may appear, finish them upon the same scale on which they had
if they hurl persisted, in the war establishment there been commenced. The whole amount of the Naval
would have Iscial a saving 042%000.—(Ifear, h:.zr). Estimates •for the service of the year, he sal', was
and if the illeininetiens hid been spared, there woul I £7,140,000, to which being added some other at--
have been a caving of £loo,ooo.—(Hear, hear).— tides of A miscellaneous description, not exactly
He eirwareeif, teet the Right Honourable Gentle- coming within the meaning of naval charges, such as
man's col:utterance seemed somewhat m re fixed— stores furnished to foreign garrisons, etc. The total
(:9 Lrega)—from which he augured most favourably. was £9,177,D00. This sum would, he bad no doubt,
:ie would now desire that the present Estimates be considerably reduced in the course of the year,
ehould be negatived, and that an Address should then and he could assure the House, that upon the part of
be presented to the Prince Regent, praying him to his Majesty's Ministers there was every disposition
have them altered and reduced. This he, however, to consult economy, as far as was consistent with the
would not move, as from the fate of a similar motion interests of the public, in every possible way.
of a Noble Friend of his (Lord John Russell), re- Mr..GORDON felt great pleasure in the last as-
specting the Army Estimates, he could not tell what surance given by the Honourable Baronet, namely,
reception it might experience. The futility of such that his Majesty's Ministers were desirous of consult-
a proceeding has been asserted, for the Estimates ing economy in every possible way; he had to. la-
would thus be only sent back to the same Ministers relent, however, that the present Estimate afforded
that had prepared them. He doubted not, however, but an indifferent earnest to fulfil this pledge, for'
that ii the Estimates had been sent back by a vote of upon comparing it'witu former EstiMates, lie found
the House of Commons, the Noble Lord would en- that so far was it from possessing a single feature of 1
deavour to reduce them, as the Right Honourable economy, it, on the contrary, bore every mark of
Gentleman, who declarelhe would stand or fall with extravagance.--(Loud crier of Hear, hear, hear).—
the Property Tax, sen remained in, and resorted to To illustrate this remark he would take the liberty
other measures. If the country Gentlemen, on whom of contrasting this Estimate with those of 1813 and
he relied, insisted on having the Estimates reduced, 1802. By the present Estimate, the Salary of the
the Noble Lerd would se), o this is very hard un First Clerk was £l,OOO, together with £l5O as lie-
me, but, sooner than disoblige my worthy old friends; ceiver of Fees. In that of 1813, the Salary of this
I'll see whet I can do ;" and be would no doubt eii- Clerk was but 4800. He next came to the Salary of
deavour to gratify them. He observed, how useless the Secretary of the Naval Charitable Fund. In
it would be to go into a Committee on particulars, 1813 this was but 4350 per annum ; in the present
where, however anxious all may be, it would be im- year it was £lOO. These were but trifling items he
poSsible fbr them to agree in one common measure of would admit, but in the aggregate they would amount
economy. He was satisfied that the majority of the to a large sum.—(Hear, hear).—The next charge
House were of opinion, that these Estimates might was for the Paymaster of the Widows' Pensions.—
be very materially reduced, and in support of this i In 1813 this was but £lOO per annum ; in the pre-
proposition it was only necessary to state, that the sent year it was AE6OO ; formerly this office had no
Civil Departlnent of the Wavy was £20,000 greater Clerk, now he had an assistant at £BO a year.—
in a time of peace than it had been is a time of war. Then Came the Inspector, of Telegraphs—pie G.
_(Hear, hear.) WARRENDER—..44 I will save the Honourable Gentle-
Sir GI!O. WARRENDER felt himself bound to man trouble on this point, as this office is to be done
say, that, although the Right Honourable Gentle- j away altogether.")—Mr. GoRDON, in continuation,
man had detivered a speech of great ingenuity, yet I observed, that if this was the case, it ought not to
that he had not exercised that fairness in his rental ks ; have appeared as a Charge on the face of the Esti-
which the courtesy of Parliament demanded. Tire ! mates—View-4—Th,, person's salary, in 1802, was
facts connected with these Estimates were not yet ' but bet latterly it had been charged at £5OO.
before the Heuse, so as to enable them to form a I This nea of charge was followed by a charge tor six
judgment of the different items. Throughout the Messengers; one at 12280 per annum, tour at £l5O
Right Honourable Gentlemee's speech he had ape i. per annum, and one at £4O. 'flit charge, in 1802,
plied his arguments to a peace establishment, when itor these persons being for the first only £l2O, and
in tact the sums which the )'louse would be called for the others sixty, fifty, and forty rands each.

•
There Wes also a charge to the present ritimates of
€2O for the barge master, the old charge being but
£6.- Throughout, in feet, there was the same se-s.
tern of extravagant increase observable The Ho-
nourable Geatlem to met A sit into an examieeti• II
of the charges for the tiidereut Dockiefards, and con.
trasted them with 1513 and 1802. • 11 1802 we hard
a tort of insecure peace—Bonaparte was then on the
throne of France—whe.reas now the legit:mate Boer. - -
bons ruled over dot country. From all this the
House and the country would %re the necessity.of
forcing his Majesty's Ministers to meesures of eco.
nomy; for unless fermi he was convinced their eco. .
nomy would end in mere professions. .
Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, he was convinced
that it could be found impossible to .educe the esta-
blishment of 1816 as low as that of 189`.? (Hear, hear. )
That a reduction of a few thousand pounds to the
Estimates might be i•frected, he would not pretend to.
say, but he weeld deny that any great saving could
be made. ‘Vilen they were talking sn mush of re.
ductien, tl.ey ought to thluk of the very woo. iecen.
veniete:e of so many Gentleman being turned adrift
without employment—(a laugh.) It was Al clamour,l
nothing lint claniouf, nonsense, and noise— (a Im-o/m.)
I %Viet respect to the three India Estaelisheierits, in
the con se of this year, the reo of B :nbee end Ma.
dras ita' be seen ;so more. In the Mediterranean,
it was intended to reduce Gibraltar as low as in t 8 .2. .
Bermuda, as any person might see from a Mercatia's
chart, sweet the whole coast of the United Statee,
and was a station of great importance. It was hi-
tended to reduce our establishments there and at An-
tieeit as tow as could possibly be done eel) safety.
lelith respect to another Dock yard, that at Lake On-
tario, the whole security of Canada del ended on our
naval force there. On the firt breaking out of a
war with-the United State:, which from their great
and growing power every person ought to look for-
ward to, we must lay our account with seeing three.
deckers on the Lakes. A bumboat eepeeNtion would
no Linger enswer ill that quo ter—we could no longer
I.eep up a tinchb:ch estaolisitmeot there—(a Litioi )
He would leave the Clerks in better hands than ;iii
own. Many-ot these Gentlemen were deserving of
the greatest possible credit.—As to the abnleien of
the Peymastersiiip of the Marines, if they did away
this oiicer they must turn it over to some other de-
partment, a:,d if more was given to the department
to which it was tamed over, a shilling would not he
saved. One ot the three Surveyors came in place of
the Inspector General of Naval works. As to the
, Register office re public security, it was said there
was no such establishment in 1613. Why, the greatest
inconvenience was felt from the want of such out
office.—There was no security before, for the pubic
, were pilfered and beeirilled all weathers—(bytes.)
He had sat twenty six years in tie: House, and yet
he declare) he ceull never succeed in getting into the
hebit of Perliaementary exeression. He :11%10 it was
better to he ve an office ot that sort, and to take care
the public simould not be diddled out of their money.
The third Surveyor !hie known oat of the Office of
Inspector of Naval We: ks. As to the charge for
the three draftsmen, he would net say whether it was
or was not too high, bet if they wete good artists,
they ought to he pail at least better than labmlrecs.
As to the parish duties and rates, when he reelected
on the ieerease in his own small establishment, he
, could not be surprised diet near a neat arsenal, the
, increase should be still greater. 'the increase in the
dock yards eltegether, alone from the resolufiou of
Government to do as numb as possible in the Royal
Diock.yartis, and to keep away from the merchants
, yards. Won the whole, be appealed to the country
Gentlemen in the Hew, and to every man, either in
efface, or who wished to get into office, whether it
was possible at Lady-day, 1816, to cut down the
Naval Establishment to that of the dearly beloved
period of 1602 ? A few thousand poem's might be
cut down that viry month, but any greet saving
could not be lookiol for till the end of the years. •
Admiral MA RKHANI felt himself called on,
- from some observations in the speech of the Hen era.
hie Gentleman olio spJlce last-•-• 4 speech mere full
of jokes than arguments, to say something eespectino
the iminekbeed Administration alluded to—he nie.iii.
that of Earl St. Vincent. It was hardly necessary
for him to enlarge on the great qualifications pos-
sessed by that extraordinary man—it was hardly ne-
cessary for him to call the attention of the House to
the length or the value of his services—and if the
Honourable Gentleman had nothing to urge against
the argument for a reduction of the lavish expendi-
ture proposed by his M4jesty's Ministers but the ridi.
cute winch he had thrown on the economy practised
under the naval administration of that Gallant Lord,
he had better have kept his peace and not said a word.
He congratulated the House and the country that
one greet plan of the Noble Earl alluded to, the
building ships in the Royal Dock-yards, had at lengths
been adopted. That was a point which had for-
merly beets much laboured in that House, and for
which the Administration to which the Pinchb.ck
Admiralty belonged, had been much vilified. Yet
the present Administration were now taking cre.
dit for this plan, and ridiculing all the while
those whom in this respect they were merely Ica:mint:
He objected to the great sum which was to be ex-
pended in new works, and especially the sum which
was to be laid out on Pator Yard, in Milford Haven.
There had been betere a Yat d in Milford Haven, b r
building only, but now it seemed the intention to
make a Yatd theme for repairing also. He protested'
against the establisement of any Yard at all, in that
harbour. What recommendations it had even tor a
building yard, he could not imagine. The country
around it produced no timber. The nearest place
from whence timber was brought, was the River
Wyc, and as it was necessary to ship it, the expense
would not be increased by carrying it round the
Lsnd's End to Plymouth. It was, besides, necessary
to carry to Millard, sails, cordage, copper, iron, and
all other articles, which enhanced the charge of re-
pairs, and is was tiesides one of the worst points for
ships to make in the Irish Channel. He also thought ..
it very injudicious to expend large sums on the yards
in the rivers Thames and Medway, because the depth
of water continued to diminish in those rivers. The
sums which it was now proposed to expend on Chat.
ham, Woolwich and Deptford, and the new yard at
Pator, ,would go far towards the building a neve
yard at Northileet. He did not mean to object to
the keeping the old yards in the river in repair, but
it WAS Mit improvident to make any additions to
them. In the foreign yards the reductions had not