Star.
London, England, 1816-03-28 00:00:00

Jury of the Cooney of Wicklow, svhich called the
attention of the House to the agricultural distress of
the country, and prayed earnestly to be relieved from
the Hearth Tax, which it stated to be most oppres-
sive upon the peasantry and the" lower orders of Ire-
land in general. The Hearth Tax he considered
as certainly very obnoxious, and tending to keep
alive a spirit of resentment amongst the people
which would not otherwise have existed.—Laid on.
the table.
,Sir JOHN NEWPORT asked, whether an extent
had been issued against Lord Tyrawley, for certain
' *dances which ought to have been forthcoming
Mr. PEEL replied, that an extent had been issued,
and that the produce of it, if any, would be stated to
the House. '

Sir J. NEWPORT wished to know if any thing,
and what, had been done to secure money collected
towards the Revenue, in the hands of Agents in
Itel Anti ?
Mr. PEEL replied, that every means had been
taken to secure the money of the revenue in the
hands of agents, by various expedients, but particu-
larly by requiring early payments.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved, that the Balk Advance Bill be read a third
time.

Mr. W. WYNNE hoped the R;ght Honourable
Gentleman would have no objection to allow his
motion respecting Sir Thomas Thompson, to take
precedence.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
signified his readiness to allow the Hou. Muuber to
proceed with his motion.
. TREASURER OE GREENWICH nos/wear.

Mr. W. WYNNE believed that the Hawse Were
sufficiently apprised of his motion, respecting the
propriety of Sir Thomas Thompson't keeping his
seat, after having accepted a situation under Govern.
ment, to preclude the necessity of his introducing
the subject at great length. It was necessary, how-
ever, to revert to former Acts, in order that the
subject might be more clearly understood. The
Act of Queen Anne, he believed, stated generally,
that if any person after having been elected a Mem-
ber of the House of Commons should accept of any
office under Government, his election should be void,
and a new writ issued for the election of a Member
to set vi' in his room. The house, it ought to be
remembered, could hare no discretion if the present
case was proved to be one of those which, by subse-
sequent limitations of the Act, rendervi the pu,sersor
of the office liable. to expulsion ; and he was prepared
to say, that though there might have been precedents
adduced, notwitnstanding, he at present knew but
one, that they slinuld not be taken into consideration
at the present period. The Master of Crccna ich
Hospital had, he believed, in two instances vacated.
his seat, and a new writ bad at each period been
issued. In no less, he believed, than seven instances
had new writs been issued for Nterebers to serve in-
' stead of those who had accepted situations under,
Government. With respect to the resent appoint-
ment, he did not think it necessary to bring ham ard
proofs of it having been given, as it was, he cenceiv•
ed, acknowledged by all parties. lie did not mean
' to say that the office had been improperly bestowed,
for surely a nitre suitable person could scarcely have
been found to fulfil its duties, than one who had
fought so bravely in the service of his country, and
who had bled and lost a limb in its clef. nee. It was
almost unnecessary for him to say what he had said
respecting that Gentleman, but as it was well known
how motives had been attributed in that House,
which had never influenced those who were accused
of acting upon them, he thought proper to say what
had fallen from him, to spew that what he was now
doing was for the benefit of Parliament and the
country, and did not oroceed horn any malice or
disrespect towards the Gentleman w ho held the office.
There had been casrs, he believed, of persons who
heal been thrived of their appointments that they
might keep their seats, but he should not enter upon
them at present. There appeared to hint every rea-
son to think the appointment Yeasurer one of the
obnoxious kind—obnoxious, be meant, to the regu-
lations made by the House. A person might hold
the yilice without any, or without a great deal of
knowledge-tit naval affairs. There was a case of a
person of the name of Baker, who vacated his seat
tbr Hythe, for the election of a Member for which
place a new writ was issued. There was another
case, of Sir Charles Saunders. who had been appoina
ed on the 1 lth of April, 1754 ; but it appeared that
Parliament had been prorogued three days before,
and his seat could not be vacated because there was
no Parliament sitting. If the appointment had been
made three days before a general election, it could
not be expected that Parliament should give an
opinion upon the case, because it would never come
before them.. He hoped little opposition could be
made to him on account of any delay that might
have occurred between the appointments being ac-
cepted, and the motions coming before the House.—
Instances might have occurred of Members keeping
their seats because they were overlooked ; and he
had known a ease in which a Member had been
dead seven months before a new writ was ordered
for the place which he bad represented. .The Hon.
Member then enumerated various Officers who had
vacated their seats on accepting their several ap-
pointments, and concluded by moving—
" That the Speaker may issue his warrant for the
election of a Citizen to serve in Parliament for the
city of Rochester, in the room of Sir Thomas
Thompson, K. B. who has accepted the office of
Treasurer to the Royal Hospital at Greenwich:"
Mr. BANKES thought, that the question was
very narrow in itself, and easy to be decided upon.
He thought, that upon the whole, however, it would
be much better to have the evidence upon the subject
collected in one body, and printed for the use of the
House, that Members might be enabled to make
themselves thoroughly acquainted with all the vari-
ouspoints of difference between this case and others
which had some before Parliament. The Honoura-
ble Member had •attempted to construe the Act of
Parliament in a manner entirely different trom.the
general mode adopted by the House with respect to
its own Memberr, and he 'thought; in a manner on.
authorised by the %fords of the Act itself. The
nearest case which might incur the penalty of the
Act was, the Master or Governor of Greentylch Hos.
.pital, as in his opinion, there were professional steps
which ought to be exempt. He considered the pre-
acat ws site One entirely distinct from that of a Coca' ,

'mos Amman, and the freedom and independence of
Parliament would not gain much by its decision.
The Honourable Member concluded by recommend-
ing a Committee, and that time should be allowed
that the House might become more thoroughly ac-
quainted with the subject.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought the Honourable Genf..
&man who bad just sat down had taken a very curi-
ous line of argument. He had talked of exempting
some cases, and the relaxation of Parliament on this
subject was very dangerous ; inasmuch, as if it should
be carried to any great extent, there mighebe no
office which would not come amongst the exempt
cases. Hw considered, that to go farther in the re-
laxation was to act contrary to the sense and to the
duty of Parliament, and he hoped it would not be
suffered to proceed.
Mr. B. BATHURST stated a case in which he
believed the decision of Parliament had been favour-
able to the holder of the office. He did not intend
to dispute what had been said respecting the Green-
wich Hospital master, but he should- remind the
House, that it the master and the treasurer were simi-
lar cases, the treasurer must keep his seat.

Mr. PONSONBY, after stating that he thought
the case required consideration, expressed it as his
opinion, that a Committee should he appointed to
report the precedents, and then to decide up= the
question after due deliberation.
Mr. B. BATHURsr shouli have no objection to
the proposal of the 11,mout able Member.
Mr. PONSONBY hoped that no deci.>ion
be Rival without the most mature delib4mti )n.
Mr. W. WYNNE had no objections to the Clm-
tnittee, but could not perceive what great dilf•tence
would be made by it ; on the contrary, the House
wocid rentanber, that if an action shoul,l be brought
against an Honourable Member for eielt of his votes,
the Court 9f King's Bench would decide according
to the Act of Parliament, and not according to any
Resolution of that House.

Mr. \VYNNE proposed to withdraw the original
motion, which was done, and he next moved that a
Committee be appointed to enquire into precedents
•respecting naval and military officer s accepting offices
of profit under the Crown, and still c.fritinuirig to
hold their scats as Members of that House.—The
motion was agreed to, and a Committee was al:-
pointed accordingly. •
General FERGUSON moved for an Account of
the Civil Offices at the Cape of Good live, with the
salaries annexed thereto, in the year Itil 5 ; and also
tor a simil it return for the year 1796.—Oidered.
Mr. BROUGHAM asked, now that the Iccome
Tax was to cease, whether it was intended that the
In:pectGrs of Taxes were to be continued in office ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
replied, that these were a very usolul set of 'lien ;
it WaS not known how ►ooa their appointments woulo
cease.

The third reading of the 13. int Advance B:11 was
put off till niday not..

NAVY F.STIatATES.

On the Order of the Day being moved for the
Home to resolve itself into a Committee, and tnat
the Navy Estimates be referred to the same,
Lord FOLKESTONE called the a.tesstion of the
House. to an as:ertion made, 03 a former evening,
relative to the Cydnus and Eurntas frigates. When
notice was taken of the .enos mous expense incurred
by the country in consequence ot the breaking up ot
these ships, which had only been built three vats
ag•', an Notscurable Gealeman opposite stated that
they had been built in a merchant's yard, and not in
the King's Dock-yard, as if he meant to assign that
as the cause of their rapid decay, tot they were ren-
dered useless by the dry-rot. Now, he must contend,
that wherever these ships were built, it was the duty
of the Admiralty to see that they were built well.—
Ois inquiry, he since found the fact to be true, that
the-ships were built in a merchant's yard ; but one
circumstance was omitted by the Honourable Gen-
tleman, which made a most matetial alteration in
the case—it was, that the timber fur building the
ships in question had been furnished by the Govern-
ment. He wished to ask if the Lords of the Adnii.
rally knew, at the time, that the timber so furnished
had the dry-rot, or was unfit for use, and whedstr,
the same sort of• timher was not now used in bedding'
other ships ?
Mr. ROBINSON observed, that no blame could
be thrown upon him fur the information he had given
—he took it from a paper which stated, that the ships
had been built in a merchant's yard. That seas :11;1
the information he possessed at the time, and be could
state no more than he knew.

Lord FOLKESTONE replied, that the Honour-
able Gentleaum should h.tve known that the ships
had been built of fir timber furnished by the Go.
vcrnment.

Mr. BARING said, it could be no satisfaction for
the House to know where the frigates were built.—
They were built in 1813, and now they were to bei
broken up as useless. But was not this the fault tit
the 'Admiralty, whose duty it was to see that the ships
were properly built ?
Mr. CROKER said, during the total exclusion Of
Great Britain from the Continent, a great quamity
of fir was imported from America; and as tilt enemy
were building great numbers of ships, his Majesty's
Government thought it would be highly advisable to
build several fir frigates for immediate service. It
happened, that some fir timber, by some unaccount-
able means, was of an inferior quality, so that ' it,
rotted away in a very short time; while, on the other
hand; many ships now built of fir were in a very
sound state.

The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
Sir G. WARRENDER proceeded to state the
estimates. He said, that the present estimates were
greater in the Civil Department than they were in a
certain year of, war. But it could be proved at the
same time, that there was no unnecessary waste of
public money on that account. The Victualling Dc-
partment had not been reduced inconsequence of the
great arrears that were to be brought up. 'There v'as
now, a large sum under the bead of Widows' Pen-
sions; the sum amounted to MGM% on account of
the great addition to the number of persons who re-
ceived this charity. There was a large sum for build-
ing and repairing ships; as. Well as for making im-
provements in the King's. Yards, because a determina-
tion was entered into not to build any more ships. in
merchants' yards. He should abstain. (rem entering
into the various items, but would be ready to answer
any observatioos which Might, be made oo those

Ironet then contlitded by
points. The Hon. B
in that a sum of A 1,511,610. iu.,, '.,b6,
dera,intt the I xpenses beiocg;ng to the C-vi)
of the Nsvy. .‘o ufliceta thzt
ing t t the Aiiinti:Alty, the Navy Pity drue.
tual!ing-orrice, the expense of otEcris (ji ,
.docli,yetqs, eigajards, ships in oldina!v,
chaplains, &c.

Mr. BA I ING expressed his su,pr:se,
Hon. Gentleman l•hould state the aricitl iq
ner he did, and a.sked, vthy he did net v,
head distinctly instead of pott;ng them 41 in
Captain PELLEW wished to kof,s, v..)„
of the offices-that were.now Lel no mil., not
duced by some of them Leigh izto air
did not conceive any nece,s ty tor kcef,i„„
expenses in dockyards, and paiucularly
dock-yards. Bermuda and At:ti.,ua engirt to
up ; but he saw no necessity Ic.r kepi"n?
Madras and Bombay- He allu2ed to ttsiz;,:i
laid on the widows IA naval Capt :ins in ye,,„ ,
v I
their pensions, which he cotnplaiiitd of as 64
,1
hardship. They were to receive a pemion
of
03
a year, provided their other income was ren &vie
that amount ; then if the income of a
tr.,.
dow amounted to the sum tit 4130 a yea? the -
not entitled to receve a pc.:sion, aitheni, teet,o4l
)1' paying those pensions arose out of a wai.
diletion cto:sta n dently made from the pny mid
..4p.
Lints. This was not the Case in the Army, bxsa..
a C4,lonei's Nt:dow was entitled to her petsioa,Lat.
ever her inexise was; therekre I:e hoped the Liss
,t the A.Jtniralt y attend to this cilcumstart:,
and rented)• weat at, iitjutice. It might beta!
that C,,1-tnefis it, the attny potaased *tittle cmm.,.,
sions ; but thi..= a ailv..nt ige ; ft One
many masters and c.,lnantiadets in the navy Was'
would be my glad to have an opportunityof mei
a large sum of money fur commissions of Pt•tt cap
limits*. He himself was a I uli Coluuel, an 3 he witted
to know why he might .not be allowed to russza the
Same advantages with Colunels in the Army ?
Mr. PONSONBY expressed much satisfaction x
what Lll from the Hon.' Gentleman who spoke List,
but this was not the immediate question betose
House. lie wished that each head of arv.ce
be voted separately, and not put to the'liouse
Is weeping vote, as was now done. N r.hint cGu,,t
lead more to to ”nomy than cnabl.ag the liquse o
juege of the particular sum intended for ma pan;
cola'. service.

Lord CASTLEREA CH saw no objection loth
course proposed by the 11;ght Hon. Gei,:lem.to, aid
therefore he shuuld agree to Lath item being You!

Mr. I'ONSON!W thoup,l3 it the most conveniza
and the most utetiti mode that could be adopted.
Mr. TIERN.LY rose for the purpose of retard.
ing the Hon. :3:.cretary of the Ado:juicy (Mt. Cr..
leer) of the pc:r.t he had left off at, when the Esti.
mates were last before the Hcuse. The Hon. Se.
cretaly had charged Lim with making the gtossee
mistakes that. ever any individual 11,1 d fallen into.—
He had 'accused bitn with misleadie; the a: ue
through .)111 the UI:olz cl' the speech had delive:d
No that OCCA:,1011, by SZatin7, tent lie (Mr. Tieri.e))
had declared, that, comparit:F, the tits: Tear 01 ileac-,
with the last year of ww, th:te nev:2t y, as an increaa
in the Ordinary of the Navy, in the former period.—
Ile had said no such thing. His positian was.
that no increase was to be ft and in the first deer nit
peace, as compared with the last ye.ir of war, la the
Civil Departments of the Navy. The HonotiraWe
Secretary observed, that, it he (Mr. Tierney) 10
used common diligence, he would have found, that
his assertion was erroneous. Bat the fact whs, the
his observation had been misunderstuocl, for he kilt.,
very well, and be admitted, that the ordinary t.t t:e
Navy must necessarily be increased in the tits:
of pacification— bu. he dolied that such an inctc..se
appealed in that pats of it, which consisted ie
Civil Departments of the Navy. With respect to to.
formation or. this point, at the period of tip! peAce of
Utrecht, he had no other document to refer to hot
the J.nwn ifs. The gross amount of the Ordit:.lli
of the N.lvy was there stated, but the items It-Tt
insetted at length. They were, boy:eves-die stwosed,
pre.erved amongst the papers of the Session, and
perhaps the Hon. Secretary had examined them.—
All he knew on the subject was, that the total
amount of the Ordinary cf the Navy,
In ri2, was .El Se; CO
in 1743 - - •Lvtss, t 0

/hill an Increa-r on the whek, without
soxi! yin flat, items, of tata,eoo
Eut he now came to cbise galArters with the .Hcanutr.
able Secretary. The cost ut ti e Adr.ia4hy aul
Navy Offices, and of the Navy Pay Office,
ha 176'2 (a ychr of war) was - 4:!.,‘ ctl
In 1763 (a ytar of pracs:) it waS - ;.: •i' 3
Here, certainly, there wAs nu increase—and S'l (At it
supported his statement. He next came to the su:a
charged for docklards.
ha 176,2 it was . • . LI S,CG2
In 1763 - . :S,r•titt
Being pound for round the same in each Feria.—
The charge for the ont-purts wa,—
•- ,- lit I 74351 - - ,evna

176 S 4,9.0
Being a diminution cf a few hundreds, but frit
sufficient to contradict the Honourable Sectctiui
He,Row came to 1745 and 17=9—
in Ms (a year of uar), the charge of the
AtintirahyOri. e, Navy °trice, titc.was itt7,1119
In 170 Ivar 41 vacs:), it %t at. sq.(tlt

Being a dcervase of 3.91 s
And yet, when he stated that Ito increase had taken
place in the Civil DLparttnents of the Navy, in the
first year 4 peaco, compared with the last year cf
• war, the Honoorable Secretary described him to he
quite ignorant on the subject. With re.rsert to the
estimates of 1781, 2, and 3, he could make nu o!,
servation, since, from want of time he bad out e 1.,•
mined them. lint, he thought, he had shewen the
Honourable secretary that he was wrong in his assn-
Lion, and he had no doubt that he felt rt. lie had
made a discovery, that the Ordinaries were gre (ter
in the first year of peace than the hit of war, but
11 that did not invalidate his (Mr. Tierney's) statement
relative to the Civil Departments of the Navy. On
this part of the subject, he should nrt trespass on the
House further. On the subject immediately Ware
the House, the increase of salaries to the Clerks in
the Admiralty, &c. he should now make a fevi ob-
servations. No doubt the Honourable Sec:v.l
would meet him on this point, by referring to t%gt
Order in Council of the 30th of January last. Ant

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