Star.
London, England, 1828-05-07 00:00:00

IMPERIAL-PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAT 6.
The LORD CRANCRLIAIS took his seat upon the Woolsaek at a
Quarter past Five o'Clock.
The Cards and Dice Stamp Duties Repeal Bill was read, a liird
time and passed.
wassaaa ram •Iwa Coulomb
Sir-EDWARD KNATCHBOLL, Alto Cuirur, Gencral Goscovint,,
Mr. LIDDZLI, Lord Wu. Ps tn.err Sir H. hums and others,
brought up the Controverted Illectim4 Bill, the Ctinwilldated Fund'
Appropriation Bill, the Greenwich Poor MU, the Steam
tion BiU, and several Private Bills, witieh were subsequently reads•
first time.

'

The Earl of HARROWDY presented a Petition from the Ho-
man Catholics of the Town of Stafford, praying the repeal of all
' Civil Disabilities.
Lord KENYON.presented a Petition from the Prinestaot lo-
habitants of the town of Armagh, against any further coucessian to
the Roman Catholics.

- The Dake of BEAUFOR.Y presented a similar Petition from
the Rector, Churchwardens, and Inhabitants of the parish of St. -
Paul's, &td.-
The Earl of WINCH ILS R A presented a Petition for the
Abolition of Slavery in the West Indies, from several Inhabitants
of London.
Earl GREY presented a Petition from the OuoPensionert of
Chelsea Hospital, praying to be relieved from the Tax now levied
upon their Pensions.
The Passengers Regulation Bill went through a Committee, and
the Report was ordered to be received tomorrow.
• Lord CA W DOR moved for a Return of the amount of Money
in the Bank of England standing in the name of the Accountant-
General of the Cuuft of Exehequer.--aOrdered.
. The Notice Loan would take this opportunity of inquiring of the
Noble and Learned Lord upon the Woolsack whether tia,: inquiries
of the Cammissioners of Legal Inquiry, recently appointed, fere
to extend fo 'the Administration Of Justice in Wales?

The .I.loltlLb CFLA BTCIiLLOR had no'Wisb to withold-ant br
fon:nation -upon this subject; on 'the contrary, he was happvaa be
aforded the opportenity of stating, that the great &wit/ascii:Wake
would hi Included in the inverfigatidn of the Comniission. Why
thee the result Carotid iseluirelteration of the present systim be
could nobekr hat-be fovea say this, that when the Inessirit.was
.completed, the best *tendon of his.3iajesty's Govetruttent should
be dtioted_to the,subjeg.
Lord CA WOO giFireteed tietielf:peifectlY oatbdied with the
=serer of thi-Abie and LearnetrLifflC lie entertainiti no Slitsibt
thatteriefit would atiseltom•theettatistn-of his AtriestYs Minh-
terebeing devoted to the subject. •:' .•:.
- SALE VF.OAME ark', stossaT. -. •• -
On themation.of the blarquis pf,asaaistiev, the Onler et, the
Day was rOcl.foi b4tigitig up_ thi.lieport.on this .11.8
flit gild of I+4 A t.NfESOU ftY th4.thelliq *twig
the utmost ficifity-tcrifte sale of-game, but 4idsytioAt as
it appeared to him, contain any sufficient regolAtinni to
prevent the practice-of poaching. BI die ptesept-lams
every person having game in hit possession !IMO be
called upon to account for the manner in ivhicktt 44 w.
into his possession, and this operated. as sigreat.t heck
to the poachers. But when this Bill had passed,
man have in his possession ever so great a qinoitiiy of
game, he had' only to refer to any perion..ppsse.ssed of
ten acres of land. The prosecutor could-not prove a
negative, and it was impossible to say- that it was not
shot upon the land of this proprietor of ten acres. He
contemplated from the Bill nothing. but aq increase of
litigations. When Gentlemen shot Over the fat ma of
their tenants now, it was considered merely as spot t, but
after the passing of this Act the shooting ten or fifteen
heads of game on a tenant's land would be considered
like collecting a second rent flog him. He hoped theik
Lordships would pause, and reflect well on the comet.
quences of this measure.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that ire conse-
quence of a call which had been *made upon him by a
Noble Lord on a previous evening, he thought it'necerr
sary to say a few words in answer, and therefore he :we
for the purpose of giving, not his important,- but his
insigniticint, though sincere support to-the Bill irt!rts.
duced by the Noble Marquis, which he considered to
be a measure of vast consequence, and such as tb call
for the consideration of the Legislature. He was sure
that their Lordships were aware that, under.the existing
laws, the crime of poaching bad considerably intteased
in this country within the last levi years, when; bytfler
turns Which were recently collected by the public officer,
of the' country, it. appeared that the committals for
poaching during the last year exceeded, by 1770, the
highest Return of conopittals for any preceding year,
3nd on a comparativegssew, exceeded by 3 to. •43100,
the committals for the last six years. He had 'found
that within the last feW years all crimes had hie-rasay
but that the crime of •poaching had increased infinitely
mote than any other. In lipart of the country. which
he possessed some proper ,he meant the trlostltern part
of Wiltshire, out of 234 pusouess who were ebnfieed
the House of Correctionfor various offences during ;bp
year 1827, one hundred were confined for a vio4tion 4
the GUM Laws. To go to •the nehlfiboaring county
of Hampshire, by *mans of compatison. between the in-
crease of crimes of that nature, for.eactr of the yearly
18100811, and 1812, the numbei 9f cornswittals to the
House of Correction, for poaching, was-20, whereas thee
average number-for the last three yeaFs any-muted i.e
287; in other Words, there was an increase of not brae
than 1,000 percent. Buttheir Lordships would be claim
a narro.v view of the case if they supposed th .1 they
judge of the increase of crime by the comparative aosoisee
of committals for poaching. • one year with another, be-
, cause it ilifforried agreat our ler other crimas.Thercr-
ap!:,..

mss
co who babikuated•hinvelf to poaching, naturally be-
lanteallfiliarmed with a disrespect for his country, a
disregard for. he laws, and with midnight depreJations,

.~~ .:

,

orionight
and was often wont. to make extensive havoc id disturb-
ing the peaciraf society ; in order to prove which, he
would instance the case ,of the two adjoining counties
of Bedfordshire and Huntingdonshire, the former of
which contained a population of 93,C00, and the latter
of 53,800; he found that Bedfordshire produced six
times the amount of general crimes, and three times the '
amount of *poaching of-the other county, which afforded
an instance of the increase of other crimes working
their way by. means of this. He wished to state one
other fattrotat short .time ago, there was a great quan-
titity of ba4 coin circulated through the country,which
caused many of the most active and intelligent Magis-
trates to endeavour by every means to find out whence
the origin of so great a circulation arose ; and it was at
last discovered, that the whole of the money had been
taken by poachers from persons engaged in distributing
it, In order to circulate it through the country ; for his
own part, he knew of no species of crime so dove-
tailed into another as that of poaching. The present
anode of bringing sthh offenders w justice, appeared to
him very defective ; he found that almost every attempt
at justice was counteracted, either by prejudicing the
Judge and Jury, or by some other unfair means. Such
.a state of things he thought could not exist ; it reminded
him of the wotds of a beautiful author, who described
penalty and crime running a race; the one putsuing
the other until penalty, nut being able to overtake its
rival, crime turns round, and attacks its breathless pur-
suer. In fact, he was convinced that mow alteration
must be made, and considering that the Bill introduced.
by his Noble Friend 'zooid, in its Nierttion, be attended
with general benefit, he,was anxious to give it all the
sopport in his pow r.
Earl M ALM ESBURY replidd. With respect to the
sale of game, venison wasost- prevent as saleable as any
other descill'tion of meat.., He .cor few d he was dis-'
appointed in ore" itticular. The Bill did not extend
to the causes of the. numerous -transgressions against
the Game Laws. It did not mention the numerous
unemployed agricultural populati.m, the bonded corn,
Or the ninety Millions of foreign wcol which were im
ported. The.coasequence of. -which was, that one man
could not get employment for five who formerly did.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN considered that no
practice could he more injurious than that of paying
wages from the poor rates. if their Lordships would
compare the six counties in which this was practised,
with any other six counties, they would find that clime
wa, 80 per cent, greater there than in all England.
The Marquis of SALISBURY would only trouble
the House for moment. He thought that legalising the
sale of game would provide the mai ket, without crime,
Which must be provided at all events. He stated his
conviction that it would do no harm, nor would it do
any good, but to make the laws more popular. He
thought his Noble Friend ought to suffer the Report to
be brought up without opposition, and he might pro-
pose or object to what clauses he thought proper.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said, that although.his No-
ble Fr ieud had united with bim, he seemed rather afraid
of connecting himself tol closely; he thought he wai
anxious to slip the collar. It was b_tter Isar Isionto,
m 'try him than remain single all his life—(Laughter)
Lord GODERICH rose in support of the Bill. Not-
si:bstanding what had been said of the site of game,
he had reason to know that a great yr rritity-of game
was liublicly sold. 0 e individual had last ye4r sold
19000 head of game. He appeale.l to their Lor•khips
whethet it was fit to maintai,i a law which it A..%
ac-
knowledged could never be eviied into effect ? Ile
thotkaht vi hen laws sere suffered to exit which could'
not be suppo•ted, it must necessaril ten t lei destroy
:aspect fur the law in general. He woold, however,
get hid of this law even if the case. were.more; doubtful.
He considered, the claui-es of his /sL)ble Fh ie hd Mould
have the effect of diminishing poaching, by giving- a
pester number of pers-ns an interest in suppressing it.
He thought the Noble Lord (Malmesbury) was in error
in the ceases which produced the crime ;for there wee
some in the South of England who resorted to poach-
ing from want of employmeot. In t! e part of the
country in which there was the gre4test number of
poachers, they were of a very different class—princi-
pally manufacturers, who earned from eighteen shil-
lings to twenty shillings a week. It was consequently
not liana poverty they had recourse to it, but partly
from a lawless disposition, and partly from a less cul•
pable inclination for sport. He concurred in what his
Noble Friend had said of the moral evil which existe 1,
and he thought it was absolutely necessary to take some
sionswes to get rid of this crying evil.
: The House then divided on the question whether the Repot.,
shot:Itl• he received—
Contents • .
Non-contents .

•
•
•

. . . 54

.

'Majority
When we were re.admitttd, we found that an amendo,ent was
put and carried, on the motion of the Marquis of SA:Actium-, that
the words " from whom, and upon what day the game was pur-
chased," should be introduced into one of the clauses.
It was then curled that the Bill .la.nald be engrossed and read a
thirst time on Monday neat.

NIGHT POACHING.
• Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the Oder of the
Day for referring the Bill for•the prevention of Night
Poaching to a Committee. He should only detain tl:eir
Lordships by exphining his views for purposing ;his
13111, and altering the present laws. By the Act which
was entitled Bankes's Act, any person who was found
out at night with arms in his hands, for the purpose of
poaching. was liable to be brought before a Jury, tried
for a misdemeanour, and, if convicted, transported for
seven years. The consequence was, th4t there was great
difficulty in convicting, as the Jury were very justly
unwilling to impose so heavy a punishment for what
might in most cases be a comparatively trivial offence.
A person was likewise subject to the same punishment
for the first transgession, as one, who was an old ot•
lender. What his Bill proposed Was, that any person
who was found armed at nighty should for the first of.
fence be brought before a Nlagl‘trate, and be confined
for three months, and be obligedso find security for his
good behaviour for a year; for t e recond, ti at he
should be confined six mond% aad find security for two
/ears ; and on the repetitiorvit the crime, that he should
be liable to be tried for a Oichipeanoor, and trans-
'ported for seven years. It m t, rrhaps, be objected
that in the southern pafts of En acid, it would be diffi-
cult to procure security. He' kne•lw from his twn ts-
perience. that in the North nothing Pas more easy, and
they bhd no difficulty in finding a relative or friend for
that purpose. Indeed he thought is .very natural that
as the greater nashber of poachers were young men,
tufselaiswed on the occupation without intending any
porriti when-they found that their friends were to be in
tnlysif they repeated it, they would abandon
ht that when an individual bad been guilty of
thus:rime fee &third time, there was no jury that could
fallow reluctancein convicting him. The Bill likewise
wearrlied that *lll4llllishellat commission-1g the crime,
$(1 she found with arms should use
dos those who attempted to apprehend him,

thator, haendsbtorualndsptertliedabfloertosegbeencanyeviairstd
..ei:nodf isdmoerrhe ean
than
three person' acted conjointly, that they should be con
sidered gt!ilty of felony said transported for font teen
years.
He Was not particular as to the number, per-
haps it might be better to make it five than three. His
object was to put down those who assembled in gangs,
and who spread so much alarm through the country,
that all the re,ident Gentlemen were obliged to aban-
don it. The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that he
had no wish to pies; his Bill upon Vie House.
merely wished to have the opinions of more eminent
persons. who were. best capable of giving an opiniqo on
the subject, and he should leave the matter to the dis-
cretion of their Lordships.
The Marquis of SALISBURY agreed with his No-
ble Ft lend that a man should not be punished so se-
verely for the first offence as for a repetition of the
crime. He thought, however, that the Bill carried the
di-tinction too far. • He believed that the security of
which his Noble Friend had spokes, could not be pro-
duced in the southern counties. He should propose
(though not at present) that the first commitment
should be six months, the second.a year, and the third.
he was willing should be as it at present was. His
Noble Friend had 'proposed that the offender should,
have his choice of Courts; for his own• part,. he did note
see why Such an indulgence should be extended to
his
crime in preference. to any other. The next to which i
he should allude was, the number of persons that should
be collet ed to constitute a felony ; bethought two were
as likely to commit an nut elate or four, andi
more frequently. He should, therefore, move thattwet
be the number instead-cif three. He believed that One,
thing which had- a great effect. ib Ineresisittg, die crime
of co aching, vas the pleasstre Of -she clatuttire.:-and
that of course was not exp.crienced alone=lei flout w
partner to :elate the dangers tn. Thoe who entered
into it from distress, were certainly not so guilt?, and the
law should make some distinction.
The Earl of CARNA RVON. did not. .agree with the
Noble Lord that the penalties for the first offeaCeswere
too small. He likewise considered that it would not
be so difficult to find security as the Noble Lord seemed
to appr, bend. If security was given, nothing would
he lost by letting off the offender in a shorter time; and
if it could not be found, they would or course have the
same punishment as before. He thought any additional
severities would have the effect of rendering the law
absolutely intolerable. He had, however, anrther ob-
ject in view. He thought it w; uld be better for a
young man to be obliged to serve the King than to re-
main so many months in gaol. He knew that man).
connected wi-h the army had an objection to,admo
culprits into the ranks; but he did not think those ob-
jections held good with regard to poachers, as, in the
commitment at least, the same degree of turpitude was
not connected with this as with other crin.es.
This
were in general young wen of spirit wh embarked in
'the occupation, from a dislike to labour, and a habit of
roving; and certainly there were many who were unfit
for ploughmen. and won d make vet y good soldiers.
This, he thought. could not take from the'character of
the army, while it would prevent those young men
from going back lions gaol, and then, liorn• want of
occupation or other causes, engaging, I,e; haps, in much.
worse practices. With tegard to.the Noble Lotd's pro-
posal of inflicting the more severe penalty on those who
went out together to the number of two, poachers did
not go out in that number for the purpose of resistance.'
but of c.tnvetrience—oni to :are y the gun, and the othe .
the bag to tecrive the game. Indeed, he (P,r1.1 Car-
[Baryon) had known of tew instances in which they had
laved resistance or used their arms against thoie who
•
,11rtIlt to appreaend ti em. If, however, more than 6:6
*associated, it might. be hassnable to suppose that•it
was their in•ention to resist. He hoped their Lordships
would not impose any unnecessary severities, as, even
if it had not the effect of preventing the Bill Irons ps,si pg.
it would bier the effect it lender tug it moSt unpopular
Lord TENTERDEN [pop,' t the omission of the
word "poaching" in rule of the clause. of the Bill. IL-
hid often, he sai.l, heard the wo. d fr oni the lips of
Noble Lords in that ; but he never saw it.in an
Act of Parliament, and he saw no reason for introducing
it as a term in legal language, especial), as the clause
went on to siy, " er unless f idly destroying game."
Lord WHARNCLIFVE said he had no objection to
the omission of the word 4- poaching." It had been
ginally in a Bill brought into the other House of Par
!lament some years back, under the idea that the Ma-
gistrates at Quaster Sessions would ftel *difficulty in,
acting upon-the Brit without that term. He_mustcon-
fess, hot. ever, that he should like to seethe term is an,
Act of Pirliameot, that p aching night be better un-
der stood throughout the country as a criminal offence.
He did not agree with the Noble Lord opposite (;he
Marquis of Sal chary) that the distinction in punish-
ment between those win) went out poaching in numbers,
end those who wait out singly, or by twos, was not
material.
Lord DACRE thought a great distinction ought to
be observed between those who resi iced with violence
their apprehension, and those who sub lilted to be
quietly taken.
After a few words from the Marquis of SA LISBURT, Lord CAR.
NA IRON. and Lord TIINTINDRS, the period of punishment on the.
tread mill, and fur sureties to be given, was altered front six to
three months, . •
Some yertroi Amendments were then adopted, which were e*.'
tiered to berlated. •
. Mutant orseamicurszatiam aux.
The rumination. of witneues was renewed, and lasted. until
Tarr w'Cuses, when their Lordships adjourned.
THE WOOL TRADE. •
The Committee of the !louse of Lords for inquiring into the Sao
of the Wool Trade, consi.ts of the followipg Nlenilsers—
The Lord President Earl Slotastisope tnid Nspier ,
The LordPrivi Seal Earl Dvlaw.ur Lord Auckland
Duke of Wellington Earl of Nialassbury Lord Retleitlale
Duke of Richmond Earl of Russlyn Lord Lauderdale
Marquis of Lansdosin Earl of Harettrood Lord Beller
Marquis of Sslislsory Vie count Peden* Lord. Wharneliffe
Earl of Wincheises Lord Dacre Lord Wallace

HOUSE OF COMMONS. •
Sir G. HILL moved " That Mr. Secretary Hoskissoo, the
Cbsncellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Grant, and all the Members of
Parliament tsr Ireland, be added to the Committee on the Hiber-
nian Joint Stock Company Bill."
Mr. Gaon, Mr. S. Mee, and Sir J. NeWroar opposed the
motion ; which, after ti few words in support of It from Mr.
Cut sum was withdrawn without a division.
Lord OX MA NTOWN presented a Petition from Edenderry,
in Ireland, in favour of concession to the Roman Catholics. Singlar
Petitions were presented by Ccilonel B an, front the Roman
Catholics of WSeery, Geashall, and several other Parishes in the
King'. County; by Sir G. Romano, from the Unitarians, of
Northarageorabire.• Petitions against concession were presented
from Stigo, by Mr. S. Coors% ; by Mr. Sums, from Kingston-
upon- Hull ; by Sir F.r.uta Hatton- from Saffron Walden; by Mr.
Hater DAVI., from St. Paul's; gristol; by Sir J. Waotreacav,
front a Congregation of Calvinistic hktbodists.
Mr. SYKUS presented a Petition from the Directors and Pro-
' prietors of the York Insurance Company against the duty on Fire
insurances. The same Hon. Member; on the part of Mr. J. Surtu.
presented a Petition r m the King's County, praying that the laws
.respeeting the poor m hubs maindlated lingland and Ireland.
Lord MILTONp Ymatted four Petitions front the West Uiding
,of Yorkshire, against)* Ton.istioo Foreign. Wool.
• • CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Pt pions, praying hat no further toneessions might be granted
to the Catholics were presented by Sir KK. &sanest,' I. from the
I Clergy of the ilirchdcaconry of Canterbury ; front the inhabitant,

of Margate, Past Pechhent, WretboUrne% W,st Mailing; AdJington;
and above twenty ?tiler places id-Kent ;by Mr. Hanka% from th.
• Inks %gums* of Torrington. and' Calbantpten. in _Devonshire; a't.
by Lord, Commos, from the Inhabitants of Winslow. l'ellti,ms Iv.
favour of the Catholic Claims were presented by Mr. S. WOUTIAT
`frog Roman Catholics inhabiting various parishes in the county
of
Yofi;--by Sir M. W. Hinter, from Roman Catholcs
psdialses in the County of Northumberland ; by Mr. M.
Fisiouseitts., from the Roman Catholics of the County of Kerry ;
by Lord ,STOART, from the Horn= Catholic Inhabitants of the
County: Monmouth t- by Mr. Wuntassa, from the Roman
Cathoks,in the, County of Monaghan; by Lord Mourns!, front
thc.ifootan. Catholic Inhabitants of blotpeth, and other plaes in
Northtinshetland; by Mr. Dawson, from the Itoinan Catholits of
Ty rone.,Vicklow, and Wexford ; by Mr. J.. Woos, from Unitarians
residengliepr 'Wigan ; and by Lord NJOUNTCHAiLLS; Erdal the
itomin Catholics of Donegal, Enniskillen, &c.
On the motion of Mr. Aldermin.WOOD, Retbrns were ordered
to be laid before the House of the numbe oaf. quarters of Malt mu-
' tually interchanged "non& England, Irela, and Scotland, for the
last five years. :
On.the.mo.doneffßir.lf. W. Mace:, an Account was ordered
. to be laid before the House of the Duties and Drawbacks on Glass

for the last three year •
Mri.DlCKElSSON,presented a Petition front certain Manu-
facturers in the county tifSonierset, praying that no further duty
might be imposed on thiittiphitation of Foreigrf Wool.
Mr. DAWSON presented the Mitcellaneous Estimates, which
were ordered to be printed.
belloioo iinbgl e t
hA. dt dbr
graciously pleased to order that...there be laid before the Ilnuse.a
dared tthoeee would" wls
be
presentedfMrto. ikibiskilMitYatTstiy7 phraany
Copy of the Dispatch from the Colonial Olice to. Sir Ralph Wood.
but ne, Governor of Trinidad, dated i 7th.of April,
Sir B. MARTIN, and other Honourable Members, presented
Petitions from various Frietully-Ssiefeties, against the Friendly
Society Bill.—Referred to the CtimlTtittleon the Bill. •
CA2.I.AnA.?
Mr. WILMOT-HORTON rose to present a Petition
from certain Presbyterian Secedeat in Canada, respect/
ing.grants of land, in doing whiChhe said he wished
take the present opportunity' of addressing to the House
alew.velsrds of explanation; which, as it is !elated to a
matter purely .personal,*he should feet bound to.com-
press within as narrow a compass as pot Able. He had
heard that some of the, obleraarions Which be let fall on
A late occasion, when speaking of the Uttion 801 l of
1822, were supposed to refer to Mr. Ellice, the late
Member for Coventry, in a manner considered to be
disrespectful towards that Gentleman. Certainly, no
language of his could, with truth or justice, be supposed
to rater to Mr. Ellice—at least, of this he felt perfectly
s; i fied,that nothing of the strong language into which,
during the warmth ofaiebate, he might have been be-1
;rayed, was intended to bear, the slightest allusion to
the character or condUct of r. Ellice.
Sir J. MACINTOSH-i—As the explanation given by
the Right Hun. Gentlematihadreferesice to an occasion,
in' which I:e (Sir J. Macintosh) was somewhat con-
cerned, he wished to know whether the strong language
in question was applied to him er to any other petson?
Mr.W. HORTON could assure the Right HonsGerr-
tleman opposite? very distinctly, that no language of
li s was at any time or could be meant disrespectfully
awards him (S:r J Macintosh); and I (continued the
Right Hon. Mumber) went to him on the occatiosi re
felted to, .and told him that if 1 e chose I was ptrlec'ly
willing 4: the moment to qualify what I had said.. My
pinion always has Leen th st this House is not the
(slice for strong language--(Hear, hear.) If occa-
sions arise demo• ding such, there are
.abundant op-
portunities Out of • d sass without occ,:pying the. at-
t.ntion of this Hone in a manner sn unpiefitable.—
However, since it has been supposed that language of
mine bri:e upon the chin. itter and Conduct of Hrn.
Me:Mae: s in a manner quite oi/smile to *bat !afro us'ir.,
real iutentions, I feel Ical:ed upon to enter into some.,
what a more detailed tell motion than •would •under
' Jitrerent cireueristantes be at all necessary ; and -before
entering on it I lie it due, in justice to the Right Hots.
Gentleman opposite, so declare my present Csairkticao,
that one of the phiSoes used by me on that occasi n was
quite inapposite-1 mean in the illn'sion I nrade to the
Union 13:11. What l complained of was 'his, that 1 had
had full reason to suppose.that the Right lion.
man opposite would have given his atippoit to
.he Un on
8.11. Now, that shOpott,Aoming from him as a C6nsti
roof aial Lawy and an iodepead ni M nraer i,f tb:s'
Rause, saacoosidiiable value; ah.l I reek stied iii.cos
it areal Jingly: •Up to the Very Lour at' welch it .was
bstiught lora ard I had every reason to believe he would
have supported the Bill. My propositirn is t is, that
up to the very hour at staid] he stood 'forwai sl to cast
censure upon those by whom the Bill was intreduced,
he had given us reason to suppo e that we should have
the advantige'of his support. It was cf this that 1 com-
plainedit was under this inaoression that I all along
laboured. Nair, if the fact turn out to be that besti-
rs, is there was some ground for this persuasion on my
pact, then, of course, 1 can have nothing' to explain or
qualify. If it turn out that lam in error, I shall be
most happy to acknowledge my mistake—more than a
misapprehension it cannot be in any quarter.-
Sir J. MACINTOSH said, that he was bound is
justice to admit, that his Right Honourable Fiiend had
made the explanation on Fs iday night, to which he had
just adverted. • lie certainly acknowledged that he was
(reposed to the Bill of 1822. His Honourable Friend,
then the Member for Coventry, who, he was, sure, was
AS honest in his support .cf the Bill as he (Sir James
Macintosh) was in his hostility to it, had several times,
bo:h when they were together alone, and when other
Hon:aural:le-Gentlemen were present, endeavoured to
dissuade 'him (Sir J .mes Macinto,h) (ram opposing
the Bill. In the course of th 'se in'erviews and dis-
.cussions, he was •arxious to soften his resistance to
his Honourable Friend's wish by every possible cour-
tesy of matiner; determining, at the same time, to
adhere firmly to his own opinion. In justice to his
Honourable Friend'(Mr; E:lice), he must declare that he
knew that Hon. Gentleman was as incapable of making
an intentional• mistake, as be (Sir James Macintosh)
was of receding from any determination founded on
wh the conceived to be principle; and he rather be.
l'eved, therefore, that his Hon. Friend. had been led to
make the representations which he had made to his
Right Hon. Friend, in consequence of misunderstand.
ing the civility. of MO (Sir James Macintosh's) manner,
and taking his expression's in a sense which it was not
intended they should bear. He entirely acquitted his
Hon. Friend. of any intentional mistatement ; he him-
self was not conscious of having committed any breach
of faith on the occasion ; and with respect to his Right
Hon. Friend, he had no doubt that he had acted on the
assurances which, however erroneous their foundation,
he had received from his Hon. Friend. •
Mr. WILMOT-HORTON observed, that his Right
Hon. Ft icad had perfectly misunderstood his (Mr. Hor-
ton's) statement. That statement was, that six weeks
before the Bill was brought into Parliament he (Mr.
Horton) had been informed by his Hun. Friend, then the
Member for Coventry, that the Right Hon. G. ntlenian
had had the Bill two days in his possession, and had
declared that tie was prepared to give it his support;
which declaration was the sole cause of the biingirg is:
of the Bill. Mr. Ellice had distinctly told him that the
Bill had the assent of the Right Hun. Gentlem in, and
on that ground, and on that aline, had it been brought
forward as a measure of utility, in the expediency al
'which all parties concurred. He made no accusation
against any one; he supposed the occurrence had pro•

I

• •
c;ftled from misunderstanding::. but the facts save
he had described them.
, sirJ. MACINTOSH repeated that the whole bo‘it
had originated in some mi.coriception, into the Hill
lars of which it would not be Convenient then to g
It was certainly true that copy of the Bill had been
sent to him some time- before it was istroduc'eil
Parliamentt—it was certainly.vue that he had read
'Bid cursorily with other papers—it was certainly ,
th it he had expregsed to his Hon. Friend, Mr. Elk;
his opinion that the conditions of the proposed Ur'
seemed to him to be perfectly fair. The probaln
was, that his Hon. Ft iend understood his statement
a larger sense titan he intended.. When the Meat
was introduced, not particularly as the measure of ,
Right Hon. Friend, but as the Measure of Government
centrally, considering it to be a pernicious measuie,/
had opposed it. - Still retaining the same opinion •
respect to it, that opinion be had repeated on Fridal
Mr. LABOUCHEKE disclaimed any intention
impUting to the Right Hon. Gentleman an intention
taking the House by surprise, when he introduced
Bill of 1822.
After a few words from Mr. BARING are conversation deem*
and the Petition was brought up and read. •
Lord MOUNTCHA IMES presented a Petition from CM*.
Catholics in Enniskillen, praying for Emancipation.
Admiral SOTHEitON.prevented three Petitions of an eppwa
nature, from the county of Notiingham and other places.
Mr. LEGG E presented'a Petition from certain inhabitants
the parish of lkadbary, against granting further indulgences r
Roman Cathulics.—Laid on the table.
Mr. KENNEDY presented the Petition of the Ordinary
nagers of Edinburgh. in favour of the 818 now penally on the
jest of the Poor Laws.—Laid on the table.
• A Petition was presented from Holahan& Market, agaimt Hui
poled change in the existing Corn Laws.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a Petition from the reddeit
Clergy of the archdeaconry of Taunton. in the diocese of Batt
Wells, against further concessions to the Catholici...Laid on tilt,
RAaT RETIORD•

Mr. G. BANKES gave notice, he should to.mq,
present the Petition oftertain treeholdet s of East Itetft
against the Bill for disfranchising that Borough.
STAMP DUTIES,
Mr. HUME presented a Petition from the Stationer
of London, against the Bill now in progress through P'
House, relative to Stamp Duties. The Hon. Me
said, that the Bill was totally inadequate to the
it had in view. It was a merely partial remedy, and
Stamp Duties. might be collected at one half the
now charged to the•public.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought the subject ought
t e proceeded in, until the Report relative to It ish
Duties were presented.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
that he was incapable of taking advantage of tin
port not being piloted, in the passing of the '
question.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought the Bill but a
measure, and that it ought not to be pressed until
Irish Report was laid befnte the House.
Mr. HUME presented a Petition from several'
Burghs, praying to be relieved from certain
attendant on detaining Prisoners in County Jails.
The LORD ADVOCATE said, that the

so)ely applied to the expense of Jailors keeping ,
of the prison. This was a clause which he had
duced in the Billpending.in Pailitment, and be
it would.be carried through. the House.
woos TRAM.
Mr. HUME moved for 'a " A Return of all _British
Manufactures and Yarns exported from Great Britain, i
9, to sth January 1348."—Ordered to be reduced.
Loid cur roN presented a Petition from Gravesend '
against the Alehouse Licensing Bill.
'The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND brought
Report relative to the Building of Jails in Sentland.."-The
grad a first and second time, and ordered for the %Mid
Monday next.
Mr. SLANEY presented a Petition from a•Prlendly Son.
Whitechurch, Shropshire, against Abe BiU now peuJist
Parliament..
Mi. IL GRATTAN moved for certain Returns relative,
Money expended in Ireland in Public Yorks for the last
• . RUM' OF CREDITORS.
. Mr. SUGDEN rose, pursuant to onice, to mo,
.lease to bring' in a Bill to amend Act 3 Willi
Mdt y, F.t the Relief of Cieclirmi against Fra'
Dzvises;" and Linolat Act (Irish), 4 Auer, ch.
Learned Member traced toe ptogiess Of the it
'Allis subject down from the time of Edward the
the time of William and Mary, and contended
would be but fair and right that failing the belt
properties, the devisee should be bound to pay
;WI debts of the devisor ; in fact, he should be
exactly in the same situation the I.eir would h
in; and the protection extended by the Ist Edc
First should equally apply to money in the fur
other property, which in some particular cases coati
be seized to the use of those who had encumbr:
demands upon the devisor after his death. This was
which he now sought to remedy, with the per
of the House. 'The Hon. and Learned Gentian
'passing a high encomium upon the legal chat
Sir S. Romilly, deprecated that principle
.his Act sea: founded, which went to make re,
liable to simple contract acts in the cases of b;
'traders. The effect of this was greatly to loci,
number of suits in Chancery, and suits of the
Wctionable description on account of expense al
Vhen it happened that real property subject
claim was in the possession of an infant or
dians, his non age was pleaded in stay of. the
'the parties were obliged to wait perhaps tw'
eighteen, or fifteen years, until be came of age.
evil.which his Bill went to remedy, was the
tive to the conveyance of the estates of mincr
thought that such estates ought not to be allowei
sold. unless they were really saleable and tl
could be made out ; and then, instead of an
compel the conveyance upon the minor coming
he thought the parties should be enabled to co'
once. He would take that opportunity of stati
no man was more anxious than himself to see
of the law of real property, if by reform w'
the getting of that only which had become ui
and unfitting to the times. He wished to keep
stance, but to get rid of those forms *inch mit
been necessary at one time, but which now oi
rated as incumbrances and impediments. He
the Commission appointed to investigate the
must be highly beneficial to the country in 41
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, that it
his intention to act as a Member of that Comp
and disclaimed exercising any influence, direct
rmccatt,teurs uponpoints
whichpr
oceeldhienygs. He thought the
composing the Commission should be learned
Id to in
mean that they should be mlaerestickluirersehe
for'
they are, but that they should hate such a ki
of the subject as would enable them to ,epa'
was necessary from that which could be advanl
dispensed with, and so to effect a rational rdoi
laws. He st ai convinced that they would
the best system of a law of property that
country ever possessed. Hi moved for leave
in a Bill to further facilitate the payment of '
of Real Estates.
Mt. WALLACE fully concurred in theobjecl

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