Star.
London, England, 1816-02-15 00:00:00

MILITARY ?LAC; ISTABLISHM CRT&

The Order of the Day upon which their Lord-
ships were summoned being read,
Lord GRENVILLE rose and observed, that
when betook the liberty of moving for the summons
it was not in the slightest anticipation of any oppo-
sition ; the precedents on which lie grounded it were
so numerous and clear, and since he came down to
the House, he had still further reason to think it
would not be opposed. Yet the subject to whiCh it
referred was of so great and extensive importance, he
could not avoid troubling their Lordships with some
Observations preliminary to it. tle would first refer
to two of the most pointed precedents which ,pre,
sented themselves. The first of those. was in the
year 1742, when the Crown and the country. were
engaged in supporting by extensive measures, a cer- '
tam system oi continental policy in Europe—propo-
skims were made to Parliament touching the sup-
port of that system. It was accordingly deemed
proper to enable, Parliament to .judge of these men-
sums, *that they should be informed of what military
eipunces were likely to be incurred by this. cowry..

I

kfill 4 die charge of the whole military expenditure.
Th wsoodd Instance which he should glance at oc-
curred at the s'onelusion of the wart 1756 s and
When the details of a reduction ht the expenditure,
*ere, under consideration. In order to enable their.
Lordships to perform their duty in investigating the
military expenditure of the period, the Estimates of
the year were laid before them, and this was more in
point, as it was in the year in which a Treaty of
Peace was concluded. Without smite previous in-
vestigation of this kind it was impossible Parliament
could adequately judge of the merits of the peace it.
self, because they could not decide upon the real
state in which chat peace would place the country.
On these grounds, and under these precedents, he
now meant to call for the estimates of the military'
expenditure of this country. It was undoubtedly ex-
pedient that they should inquire the extent of the
military expenditure of the country, with a view to
one of the most important results of the peace, and ,
it was in no small degree connected with the ques-
tion, how far the peace was likely to be permanent ?
It was, above all, impOrtant to state to the country,
that they would take their share in those investiga-
tions which appertained equally to both Houses of
Parliament—not less in pursuance of the desire of
the Prince Regent at the commencement of the Ses-
sion, than from a sense of-duty to their fellow-sub-
jects. The great question now WAS, to consider whe-
ther, after au unparalliled exhaustion of blood and
treasure in a state of warfare for' twenty-five years,
the country was placed in that situation of retrench-
ment and repose, for the attainment of which, in a
great degree, these burthens were borne and these
exertions made; or whether it was to be made sub-
servient to a military system, the object of which was
to enable it to rank among the great military nations
of the Continent ? They were called upon to consi-
der whether, after all the country had sa patiently,
so laudably endured, under the persuasions of Go-.
Vernment, they seem according to the promises of
that Government, brought into a state that only de-
served the name of ritace, as such it would be, if
they were nut benefited by a real peace establishment.
To enable their Idaeishirs to ascertain and judge of
this must important question, was the object ot his
motion. Atter slightly glancing at what had been
said last Session, as to the probable amount of the
peace establishment, his Lordship observed, it re-
quired the utmost stretch of his imagination to con-
ceive that it could possibly be in contemplation to
propose to Parliament au establishment of such an
amount, as he understood, was proposed for this
Sear of peace—such an enormous extent of an esta-
blishment as 150,000 men; and if any thing could
augment his astonishment, it was, that of these, fifty
thousand were destined for the service of •the United
Kingdom. He trusted this subject would not bu the
business of one night, or of one debate only. No
efforts of his, however humble, would be vianting in
discussion, to avert from the people of this country
so great a calamity. In considering the important
subject before them, he would first direct their Lord-
ships' attention to the extent of the establishment in
former years of peace, but particularly to what it
was in the period between the years 1783 and 1793.
On a future day, he hoped to state the details mute
at length, and the grounds more particularly upon
which that establishment was formed, and to evince
that even that was larger than the country warranted.
Connected with that subject were the proceedings of
Parliament in 1786 and in 1791, whorl; the whole
system of the income and expenditure was taken into
seriuusconsideration. On these occasions it was a ques-
tion whether the military expenditure should exceed
£1,600,000, or d11,800,0t.V. In 1791 it Was fixed
at £1,800,000, and the great Ali sister who graded
the affairs of the country at that tune, thought it
ire-
portant to effectuate a saving of so small a rum asi
£500,000, by a reduction in the staff—a clear pro Al
of what his opinion upon the sist.ject was : and in
1792 a further reduction of £loo,ouu wa. proposed.
lu the conviction of the great man to whom he re-
ferred, £1,600,000 or XJ,ZiOO,OOO was au adequate
expenditure for a Military, and 1,800,400 or two
millions, for a Naval Peace k:stablishment ; it was
his happiness to live in the most cordial intimacy,
and to act iu concert with the illustrious personage
at these times, and he had never recollected any idea
or opinion to have been entertained by !inn, that
I'eace could be rendered more secure, or war more
effectually encountered, than by limited and truly
economical establishments iu time of Peace. And
this consideration would be the best refutation of
those who asserted, not long after, tl.at they had
voluntarily plunged the country into a state ot war;
he meant with reference to the very limited peace
establishment which they had so recently fixed upon.
Though, in another point of view, as he had said, a
low establishment for a permanent peace was the
best means of enabling the country to meet the
perils and accumulated expenses of a war, it was by
following the steps 6f that great and intelligent Mi-
nister (tie meant Mr. Pitt) that the country could be
restored to a state of real eeace and prosperity ; and
it was more than ever incumbent on his Majesty's
Government to follow him iu the present burthened
and exhausted situation of the country. The- Noble
Lord concluded by moving an Address to the Prince
Regent, praying that the estimates of the charges of
his Majesty's Land Forces for the present year might
be laid before the House.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose, not. he said, for
the purpose of offering any opposition or objection to
the Noble Lord's motion, as he was ready to admit
that the information required should be brought
before Parliament. He was prepared to say also, on
the part of his Colleagues and himself, that they were
ready and willing to go into the most minute consi-
deration and details of every question relative to this
subject, and point by point 4 and on that investiga-
tion to let the question stand, whether or not there
existed a public necessity fur the proposed establish-
ments, not only in the whole, but io every particular
case. He should thus leave the present question
where it was, and even as it appeared from some
points of the Noble Lord's speech : that much of
mistake and misapprehension prevailed, with respect
to the real state and merits of the subject, and in the
hope of obviating some at least of these, he was con-
strained now to offer a few observations to their
Lordships. the speech of the Noble Lord, in some
respects, he confessed, he really heard with some de.
gree of astonishment. It was sufficient for the im-
portant topics they would have to discuss, to con-
sider what was necessary for the maims"; establiih-
,

fel
Ted,
diiobtailib-.i
pe,auce.hgeeliichill; iliti
British Empire, m a period of
emphaticallyii*nt,iwnitil7la2:ocie,aw,uilltiotihneothtcewircraituh.mainshide4nenclinitnii,si:‘::
times—(Hear, hear.) A reference to 4).iiitlieP,
items
made, or any comparison be fairly drart.st -t''
on that particular point it would be 4; l',
that the half-pay of the areay, and thentith'
lowanecs, now amounted (on these rwo arint.l.4
to considerably more than the whole e-jc:
otifsetesealvrmesytiiatei tchbeasyiedaerralt7i:
rious increases, in such respects
unavoidably taken place, thzy wmild h„44,i
(licit sidjera.tio:l, "::1
themselves in the idea of corning to arl t",:,141
sion upon the suliect. AVith ruspect to "f;1
establishment of 1792, upon which the I,cs, Pt
had rested so much, he should say a lea to-,7,L
Lind the honour to lire on terms of pest -:4
a ith the lamented friend of the Noble 1,114
fromnot utilaact nte. with ti,o LI r anda
c te dw as
again refer, and pointedly, to the gt.,ally I
boodle time,
abst
state of the country,and the stupendous cii:
circumstances which had taken place in die,—
and in such a view of the subject the
soot,',
the Great Minister alluded to as to the iZt
question, must necessarily be altered. it ii.;:q'
cessary for him to dvetll upon the importaht 14
which had since taken place, and Cie co:lic9:4
tared state and relative situ ttionuf this 0,414
comparison, therefore, with the period reieNi:
the Noble Lord must, he thoui.,ht.beout olaii.,l
What they would have to consider sand 4417
were the necessary Peace est abiisliments one .4
then. Aad of thew: no ~.. prorowd, he 0Gc,14
thCir Lordshiei with a c.ear and sittcitlct
Kutli
They were to conbidcr of n .t only the necerkl
blishments of Great Lritain and IriAanO, bat iii
nuntercgs and exicit.,iv.: col'l,:e.s. 'l. we ~t '
kb.pt f.er some tone i 1 Fr.. ::c ; and ALL) in ok
1.) ii.i vssessions. The at ;ny Id be aufncri
France on our parts, coihisted td thirty 14
men ; ties forces kept in luoia a .ri ut,ted to 1,
thousand men ; and the army to be kept up is(
Britain and Ireland, and the whole of the ro
appertaining to the British crown, did 2%04
99,000 men. They would have to consider Lilo
state and extent of our colonies now were vergi
rent from what they were at the period retinol
by the Noble Lord. The increase necesork
quired an increase of military establishment. %I
no difficulty in stating, that the colonies now al
session of the British Crown, which did netball
it in • 1792, required an additional force of si
men ; but the actual augmentation of ditto
blishments was to be 19,400 men. Ile wasa
to admit, however, that at a future period semi
tion may be practicable in the establishtnentsto
colonies, and such, if practicable, it was pap
sh onl d be made. Witi, respect to the question
old colguies, which existed in 1752, alai Arnie
Ibe would state the grounds at the prop:r tirae,p,
by point, :o chew the augment:titrc w is cacti sii
the circumstances of each case. Of these,kai
the British colonies in North Amsr:c.i, in which
now included the Bermuda Islands. The 0r,2,

#1
s•J

establishment was only ten Olousand tn:n; tG
1792 was 6600. The population of the.e co •••
was doubled since that period. Tie whole (its
Canada :way be regarded as a new creatiisiece;
and . • would freely leave it to the cousidnu
their Lordsh.ps, whether, with a view to alt 6
cuntstauce.s ct tl,-,:e valuable countries, an ilatral

ow
ii t 4
t w
a TV

SlOO men was too great, in r!,eir in;litary est '
ments. The next point was the Leew.oli
Jamaica ; for thi2),l .5:j00 men-mere.
was an augmentation et oi.ly '2lOO nem abort
establishment of 1;;1:;, ;tart fur t,brif reasvas
11 number could not be less; a large proportion of
troops consisted of black corps, which at.pre,mi,
for some time to come, it would be totally impr.
cable to reduce ; bereafter they may, but my gtz'
ally. We were still in the occupation el&
leupe, and some troops it was obviously nec:sur
' keep there for a time. The next point was vti •
sessions on the coast of Africa ; fur these les/
were alletteA ; and for the colony of New
Wales, the increase was from 335 to SOO men.
would mention, in the last place, the island GI
Helena, where, for obvious and peculiar Kw
(which he should now decline entering into) se:
of 1200 men was- to be stationed. 'nitre was a:0
be considered a kind of flouting force, wlio
supposed to be always at sea, or on their •
from one quarter to another, for which 5000
were allowed. He would next advert to the
establishments, those of Great Britain and Irrluf
and in such, with respect to Ireland, a meals.'
increase was proposed. He believed that no
informed* of the state of that country would •
pat, in its present circumstances, 25,900 mensal
higher proportion than was necessary. Circa • •
hereafter, and which he most sincerely 1:opeilf0
enable th.•in to reduce that amount. With ree4o
Great Britain, a like amount of force was prof
which was 9000 ny)re than were proposed is
which increase—considered with reference to ex.
neral sate of the emeire, and of the measures
ted since that period, the increasing populatioe,
of the civil establishments of the c-ninay, as tc+
of colonial possessions abroad—he thought cAllit
be regareud as a greater increase than was nacre'+"
Iln this part of the subject it was particiilaily
considered the charge: incurred by the abalitioad
drafting system ; which rendered the sending eg..
whole regiments al reilace*thnse impel f:ct ();.cis.
might be called home, where is itt f. rui r P't
drafts of individual soL.:iers frem d.fie:clu crif
could have beea sent out in order t fi:i up Lime!!
Besides, rei..,,iinents were not to be ccutinu..4
abroad, but were to be excLang d horn time ta :kr!
all which cons:cr.:rations rcndered an increase eel
home establishment the more necessary,
not to
respond in an exact ratio with the increased esU
meets abroad, but certainly in some dez;ree °E y!!
portion to the increase of the later. Upon the ow,
he thought no doubt could exist as to the r.ece,s4l'
an increase of at least 9000 men over the Britishl
blishment of 1792. With respect to any view eta
part of the question with reference to a Cor.gitul"w
principle, lie had no apprehension cf any objectict.a
jealousy being entertained (upon a fair considerOl_
of the subject) from an increase of twenty-fire tr
sand mesa 10 the home establishments, and trl
far from being effettives, and a torte from wow

P'-

rity af
h a it!
he Dr

, . . .
. • .. .
~ • ordinary and eitra ordinary demands of the
iseth;t he thnoght ' oast be continually making , deductions.—
any ground for constitutional jea-
L
' WAS not of the quesuOn. Added to all these.
t/ irs'3„ratiins, W4l this, that the Establishment of
";o4 was'prop.)sed after an interval of ten years nt
ice; and we were now but in the first year of that
Ito
be
situation. With respecttime in France, that sub.
was not now in the least before the House, and
no reference to the qnestion of the Peace -Esta-
went. When it should come to be considered,
„mid speak fully on that part of the subject; and
the whole he most contend, that the proposed
to Establishment did not exceed that which the
-iimstances, the security, or the situation of the
n;:y incontrovertibly required.
;1 to Marquis of LA gSDOWNE rose and spoke
' vont! length in support of the observations of his
hie Friend (Lord G.), and in animadversion of
principle of much •of what had fallen from the
le Earl on the Ministerial Bench, he contended,
present was the time to extend that relief and di-
• akin of burthens to the people of this century,
• they were so often promised, And which assu-
aaJoubtedly was a great inducement in them
support those burthens so long as they did, cheer-
y, anti without repining. For his part, it was the
and hope for which he had afforded Ministers
• 'wort in the vigorous prosecution of the war.
:
into some detailed remarks, the Noble Mar-
• peed at the great increase of military esta-
ut intended for Ireland, respecting the state of
• country, he thought it the duty of Parliament
Maguire before they sanctioned such an
_immense
onse. He censured the idea of an increase of pope-
., being aground for an increase of military esti-
sament, which was a kind of assumption that' the

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spolanon was hostile. The policy of retaining so
'pny Colonies may be as questionable as the necessity
on increase of military establishment for them..r.
br no- mamas could see the necessity of so great
Loamy establishment. Certainly it could not be
rya that Bonaparte was in a more formidable
Ate now than he was during the peace of Amiens,
'even at Elba ; and the greatly reduced power of
mice, together with the nearly annihilated state of
'army, should be taken into tht account. A part
ithe proposed system of finance had his approha-
No
especially what was done by Ministers to relieve
inioney market; but the general policy of so
'estimable and improvident a peace establishment
higbly disapproved.
Lord.KING followed, and, in a short speech, ten-
ons! the conduct of Ministers in proposing such a
weeestablishment as impolitic and improvident in
See :roue. The arts of peace and cemnierce should
e protected and encouraged, and every possible step
tket to relieve those • oppressive Written; under
alieh the people groaned ; they should be places: in
red rote of peace and calm, in which a moderate
itabliduaesa, joined to the advantages of their insu.
it situation, would be fully adequate to insure their
tostnrity and security.

The Marquis of LA tiSD 0 WNE shortly explained
that the approbation he had expressed of part of the
financial system of measures, did ont ea te:id to what
eras proposed with regard to the Property
The question Was then put, and the Motion was
red to by their Lord hips.

Lord GRENVILLE inquired if the Nohle Earl
tad say objection to have laid before the House a
omit of the number of troops and the dtstriba-
ioa of the forces in Great Britain Oa thi4lopic a
!'ortcoorerution across the table took place between
is Lordship arid the Earl of LtenupooL, the result
tallith was, that the desired statement would be
ern, but not exactly in the proposed f
The question was not put, and the House adjour-
n tid to-tnor: o.r.

. HOUSE OF COMMONS.
*MELLISH presented a Petition from the Coroners of
ey. Otc. pro•iirg air increase sif reliant:ration fur taking
tier, &c
' dlr. Wko 1 1 ESLEY said, he expected. within a fr.v days,
hare aWaiiiar Petition to present twin nonce other e:ouirties
Weenie subj.:et, and thought the player of Gila t'stitnen well
.y the attention of the liaise.
Ordered to he ref, trod to a Canaiztee.
Nu ii. ADINNG rum presented the returns of all persons
and cu witted for criminal offences, pursuant to the order
HOJqr en a former day.—Ordered to lie On the table.
*.I.USHINO i ON presented Ream 01 the Army,. Navy,
• , and other establiihmeas, for each of the years from
• , to 1792.—Orders ,I to be printed.
kr.GOkDONI canklained of the Order of the !louse, for i
s of the progress made toward. fu,fillinj the Act of last
. for a New Post UUlce, htnu: in?, coniplied with ; and
that h be Lid before she Hcsr.,-.e ft), th .vit h.
14.1.116111 M.; lON said it Wouid be ready tomorrow, he
oak—Motion agreed to.
lit. BARING moved for an acenunt of the ex penies already
' and of those coutracted for, in the alt•rattuns pro-
" in Pall.Nlall, opposite Carlton House. This account
cone necessary, as there appeared to be a most improvident
Atilt goirig on, and wii hart being in furtherance of any
:slie.az ; :f he w •re to judge i runt the circumstances of houses
• erre Terire.l, alteßd and fitted up one day, and hastily
down the nest.—(t! .n..))ionte iitent:on had been made
INew Street, but exe.rpt the labours that were going on lal
''' of Cattail liaise, nothing was doing any ,here else to-
-ft the aceoprelithiursit i 4 curb a plan, and Croat the extent
.3
.it taboo' a, he Amok: inf,,r• that it was intern:orl;u ham a
raft.a:ni out 2 Slew street, opposite Calton /Iraq:.
'ln LGSIiING, lON and Mr. kO:sk. had tio a:lea:ion to the
.314 b. tam:Ward ties: the works alluded to by tar Honour-
:Allcc,her were is execution ut tire I...rge plau to used .1. actlY
.t.—Aecoutu ortlert.L
t'4.llEiNs Y asked the l'lolilt Lewd (Cas kreaalle)s wan `t. it's vaee, whether he had :ay sild,:caun to the production
4 he ceret.p..nuiellee that might Isastv taken place between
• tr•ia.- ,1 and Anurr.i :.e.pectiug the debt duo to this country'
aO.?
Atla, ou account in a Loan r.t...1e to that Power cony,
144CISTI.EREAGH wished to !crow whether the Right
arable Gelid, mall meant the Ocivi.al CoretapoteLhatue. or
.t.'Zr;ll,l with what Led reeJ4,4y Liken uses f because, if
•' •• tle.:red, he thought lie eltuad lie prepared to adduce,
''' allf tae rec.nit Correspondence osg.t not to be premed
t. .ti, y,esent itto.l.etr.
!„..'.I:"NEY Isle. d all the correspundence that lad :writ-
•,`",••l between the two Courts oat tab. bObjt-CI : he had no
aa'Y wish for .I.e production of what cos ant essential,
ir
desired, he shovel move gsueratly fur ail the Lorre-
anere
. ' ,
4..STLEREAGIi wothd tlhe an early oppon unity ofi
~
- ~... Cote all the pop-rs and would then return on answer
'-'" hrrould a,,ree t enured of the Rlght 1-1 11.N:ember.
1:4 HAY WeSt,
a,i i_ 1) p accounts ot the amounts re.
", the Exchequer from the ExC fee, &c. during the last
lt!ic° ke—Ordered t,i lie OAS the table.
.474: SAST *I KE AU H leeward at the bar, by order of the
„!;:, :-.CiAllt copies of conferences between the Pleippo-
ri of tiustria, Russia, and Great Drains, dated No-
'"4r„,6* IS I 5 ; Letters from Ma• shot Ney to the Duke of 1
it,
.tn, arid the Duke's answer; between Ney add Sir C.
" $ si till4a4ai ffefs kohl tv Sir I;tailLs Sisital ; aid.

a espy of the oincidpaper retatiVe to he military occupation of
pas-h.—Ordered tip be printed: . .
Mr. GORTON vas desirous of !ranting. 'preparatory barite
discussion whlCip would take place on Monday on the '1 reatles,
what was theartate of the cemmeteial regulations of Portugal?
. Last year it was said that the regulations o( a Treaty had not
been carded Into execution, particularly that respecting the
Oporto trade, it being then stated that such replation aid been
arbitrarily. resisted.
Lord CASTLEREAGII was unable at the present moment
to return a satisfutory answer. The former arrangement', he
believed, were in operation, with the eiception of that respecting
the Oporto trade, about which there was a diffaence of opinion
as to 'be construction to be put upon the art!cle regarding it—a
die creme which, as yet, he thought, had not been removed.
Mr. BENNET moved for a return of the supplies yawed to
Spain in money, dins, &c. from 1811 to the latest period.that
' the same could be made up.
Cir. TIERNEY asked whether the accounts between Spain
and England had been liquidated
Lord CASTLEktEAL4-1 replied, that the accounts were not
wholly adjusted, bat very little remained to settle.—Motion
aireed to.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to have some infor.
:nation relative to the Treaty of Genoa. Amongst
the signatures to that Treaty there was a blank belt
opposite the word Spain, for which country there
was neither seal nor signature.
Lord CASTLEREAGH knew that-the Treaty
mentioned was not signed by Spain. There had
been a note publishe I at the time, which sufficiently
eiplained the reasons of that country for not sigiliog
the Treaty.
Sir C. NONCE: wished to know what instructions.
bad been given to Lord Colliogwood, in 18O), re-
specting the lonian Islands ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the Honour-
able Baronet should recollect, that be could not lay
before the House the Instructions of any military or
naval Commnuder immediately-on their lyffilg
for ; but if the Honourable Barouct wished t n h: in-
formed respecting the instructions he had ist.iitione.l,
he had nu objection to their being laid betore the
House as Soon as possible.
Sir C. MONCIi gave notice that he thoolil to-
morrow move an Address up,in the subject of Lord
Collingwood's instructions couitected with the
Islands.
Mr. BARING presented a Petition from st.num-
ber of Farmers and Landed Props ietors of llarlestots
and its neighbourhood, in the county of Norloik,
against the heavy taxation, but particularly the Pro-
' perry Tax. The Honourable Member stated, that
the Petitioners, without any expectation of thu
ramous Peace Establishment which, it bad been scat.
to the House, it was the'intention of Government to
keep up, had with the greatest good sense and te-
speet entreated them to look at the enormous Civil
List, and consider the distressed state of the country.
Laid on the Table.
Mr. TIERNEY wondered at every thing he had
heard about economy and retiencho.ent ; not that
he doubted that Government intended to retrench,
bit when did they intend to bug.n ? How was tile
establishateot to be regulated as regarded Public
Offices There were in 11)y oiracets in a time of war-
f tre that were not nta:e,..ti y at all in a time of peace.
It had been stated, that in other peace establi4:l-
- there had been a reduction in the expauditure
as regarded this or that office. Offices ir. the Horse
Guards, and otfer pacts of the War Dept-ta:at, 1
had been specified.
Lord CAS I'LLREAGII stated, that the Go-
vernment had already made a guest reduction in the
War Offices.
bIr.TIERNEY wished that Ministers would'men-
tion the ollices to the House as frecpwatly as :Ley
abolished them, till the system cf ter2nclonessi. h.:d
been practised upon the whole list. After s•.::,e far-
ther observations, the Honourable Itleinb:r pro-
fessed his intention to move for returns of the state
of Public Offices, that it might be seen how far the
system of reutncl.m.it Was adhered to•
HABEAS coneys.
Mr. Serjcant ONSLO W rose to bring before the
House a measure which had been in agitation dur-
ing tile last Session : it was bur the tyoter regisl awn
of the Act of Habeas Corpus ad Satisfsciendum. It
was well known that three was no power of cwupel.
any person to comply with the writ. of HaJseas
Corpus who those to resist it. He should bring to
the recollection of the
.1-linise two cases in which this

was evident. ' The one, the Captain of a Spanish pri.
vateer who had detained a person with the intent of
taking him out of the kingdom, and the other, of a
young Lady who had been seduced from lier parents,
and of whose person possession could scarcely be ob.
tained long after the issuing of the writ. Loth cases
were reported, and he siippoced were well known.
The Honourable and Learned Serjeant, atter in-
stancing in support of his motion the cases of Lady
Fcrrers and Lady Strathmore, stated, that lord
i'lardwicke and _Lott Nottingham had been of his
opinion, as were ten of Vat, Judges in 1758. He con.
eluded by moving, that. the first of a series of Resit.
lutious which favoured the alteration of the law should
be read.
Tile ATTORNEY-GENERAL, after some per.
tin‘nt o;rxrvations, in which he stated, that had he
nhilLii to bring into the House the motion of his
Honout able Friend, he should have been regarded
with a great deal of jealousy, considered that it would
have been much better if the Resolutions had beet;
read jqo forma, and Lave moved for to bticg in
tt Biil.

M.. Scijeant ONSLOW did not intend to contra-
dict his Right lion. Frien4 and should the:dote
move (or leave to bring io a &Al to amend the Ha-
beas Cot i us Act.—Leave given. •
Mr. AtIiERCROADY believed that one of the
Baronkof the Exchequer- had nominated his son to,
the situation of Clerk of the Common Pleas in Ire-1
land, in defiance of the Resolution of the House in
ISIO, and wished to know if the transaction had
taken place with the concurrence of Government ?
Mr. PEEL had been as much surprised as the
Honourable Gentleman was at the affair he had men.
tinned. He believed the situation was originally a
grant of the Crown, at least as far back as the reign
of Queen Elizabeth ; bat whether it Was..a grant Of
the Crown or of an individual, he supposed the Howe
had it at their disposal.
-Mr. ISROUGHAN said, it was of no Conse-
quence what the (Mice was, by a Resolution of the
house it was to become extinct on the death of two
'prisons who were now no mope.
Mr. HORNER should call the attention of the
House lot a short time to a 4w4ject which he consi.:
tiered of. the utmost impor:ance—the conduit of
Irish Graadaries., The Hououtable en...,

rerei into a statement of, the method practised in
Ireland on the finding' n; Nketted were
Win
generally fotrud from the depasition: e Millis-
crate's, Without any, or with very 14,;!e proof that such
depositions w..fre true. Matey attempts had bren
made to regnlite the conduct of Irish Grand .rur.es,
bit they ILId hitherto fail 4. Ile bc.:Tvecl to lie un-
derstood as by no means wishing to r: rte Rny clearge
tgaingt the present Judges or Grand Juries of he-,
lAnd, bin as intending to do all in his power for the
benefit of that country. The lionotirable Gentle-
man then moved for crave to bring in a Bill tq de-
cl.tre the Law in Ireland relative to Grand Juries
Anti' Indictment:.

Mr. PE El, did not rise to oppnse the Hoenstr stile
Member, but considered' that the conduct of Is ash
Grand Juries was a very proper subject of inquiry--
The Right Hon. Member then contended, that for
the last century the present practice of examination
befere the Grand Jury was continued and recogniseel
by all or most of the Judges neer presided at the dif-
ferent Courts. N.) notice whatever had been taken:
of this practice by the House of Commons in IseLtncl,.l
and in one instenee it was indirectly acknowledged
by the Irish House of Peers. It would nut be just or'
(sir, he s lid, to attach any blame to those who kid
continued this practice as they found it. He hoped
be would agree in the pi inciple of the 811 as pro-
posed by the linneurable Mover, when the proper
time came for its disetission, but he did not thistle the
present was that time.
PONSONUY acid, that the Rlght Honour-
able Gentielnan oeposite (M:. Peel) fell into a great
mistake if he imagisnet dim there was a coesmon ilw
in Ireland
-distinct Irene th a of England, it wAs
exactly the sine is both clime-les, and ise would
sAy, that any alteration of that 14w COOL! no/ take
place without Utz aut,rter,:tc: of tmre. It
was, in fact, abso4ately necess try that the common
law should be the sane in both cnentrhe in every hi-
st nice, an.: the acceding ,to the present mittiois would
be oee import tut step towards so desirable an object.
Mr. PEEL espl tined.
Sir JOHNS VSIV Alt r said, be did not see' any
iteemeeeience thAuc.ould arise from the object of tee
13i11, mid when it cone befere the House he would
'give it his most seriosts consideration.
. Mr. KNOX protested against any innevatinn in
'the long established customs of Irelntsd. unless a cease
of aess-cute necessity was made out. He did not see
any one inconvenience which resulted from the pre-
sent • practice of Grand Juries in Ireland, uisd he
thosight they paid as much attention to the lives and
properties of those who came before them accused of
any trine as the Jariea of ties country. He did not
'meets to give any opposition to the Bill, but he per-
fectly agreesi to the suggestion thrown not by she
Rieht IlossoensUle Gentleman near him ( etre Wel),
that aech a measure should be de lased mud there
was a more full attendance of hish Members, and
:se did 113 L see any objection to that suggestion, as
the Bill, it carried into a late could not be operative.
' until aftes the a enrnaching Assizes iss Ireland.
Sir S. ROMILLY stq ported the 13.11, and said
the question before the littuse was, whether there
should be a Grand Iffy in Ireland ur not ? that is,
diet whether there should be such a Greed Jury as
the law intended. For if the Grand Jury did net
exercise the power which the law gave them, it was
the same to the person whose case they had to hi-
.
spite into as if they hid no such pourer at all. It
was impossible, he contended, that justice could be
done in Ireland, unless the Grand Jury had the power
(se examining the witnesses 'hems-Ives. It could be
no f air way to take the Ceeoetions of the several wit-
ue.ses as they were given Leforc the Magistrete.-7
The manner in which a winless inilst answer before
one and the other was frequently different. Tne
Grand Jury could know nothing of the manner in
which that evidence had been given. It Was abso-
lutely necessary cur the ends of public justice in Ire-
land, that the Grand Jury should exercise this
power ; fur it was known to ben. and the House
would, be astonished when he would mention the
vast diffssence there existed between the number of
' persons accused of capital offences in this. country
And in Ireland. He wousdeneution one instance.—
In the year We% the nu:uber of persons accused of
murder in Ireland amounted to 258, while in Eng-
land, in the Same year, the number accused of that
crime was only tifty-eight, and in Scotland nine !
The Housetrom this alone, and he could cite many
other years in which the difference was nearly as
great, would see the necessity of having such a law as
would ob:ige the Grand Jury to a viva wore exlmioA-
lion of witnesses. This would, as it does in England,
frequently discharge a man against whom a frivolous
and vexatious charge had been made, for it was a
vary material difference to Ore future character of a
m tie to have it said, that he was acquitted by the
Grand and not by the Petty Jury. It vets astonish-
iss:4 to peiceive the great disparity which existed be-
tween the number *of persons indicted amid those ac-
guises, its Itehead. In the >ear 1810, there had been
-237 persons .accused of aid tried for murder, and of
these only IS had been convicted. From these cir-
cumstances the House would tee the necessity of such
a Bell as that for which his Hon. and Learned
Friend ( Mr. Horner) had moveci.
-
Sir le 1LOOi) said, he did not oppose the Bill on j
the principle of it ; but he could not suffer such al
report to go uncuntradicted, as that the Judges of
Ireland, 211 of whom he knew to be most Oacte men,
(4 lauri) —would have permitted such an abuse as
that he had heard-described, if they conceived it to
be so. For Isis own part he had been constantly on
Grand Jurtesl e the last thirty'years, and he did not I
know of such, an abuse, le therefore, the Bill was
to pass, he hoped the county he had the honour to
represent (Wextord), and the county of Kilkenny,
would be considered as exceptions—(4 laueile) tie
did not mean then to oppos:. the Bill, but he hoped it
may be deferred fora farther :trui better opportunity.
Mr. COURTENAY supported the expedielicy of
the Bill.

Dr. IYUIGENAN said a few words on the Bill,
but did not oppose it.
Mr. HORNER, in reply, defended the arguments
he had used en support of the Bill. He said that he
had been accused ot precipitancy, in the present
tneasure.. but it would be recollected that he had
urought it forward last Session, and had only put it
off at the instance of the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Peel). He was as anxious to have
,he attendance ot the Irish Members as any of the
Gentleittin opposite; and theretpre, if the House