Star.
London, England, 1820-05-05 00:00:00

CIVIL LIST.

The M.uq'tis of LANSDOWNE said, that seeing
a Noble Earl (Liverpool) in his place, he would take
that opportunity of asking him, in reference to that
part of his Majesty's Speech which related to the
Civil List, whether it was the intention of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers to appoint ts Committee, to take into
consideration the several subjects contained in the
Civil List, and to furnish the House with the neces-
sary information thereon ?
The II .d of LIVERPOOL said, that it was not
the intention to move for a Committee upon the
sabject, as there was information to come before the
House which had been furnished in the year 1816,
and which was sufficiently full and ample to allow
a complete discussion of the subject.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE observed, that
upon the occasion adverted to by the Noble Earl, as
on other similar occasions, it had been staled by
nisters that the commencement of a new reign would
be the proper time for sifting the principle and de-
tail of the while au angements. The Minister at
that time had said so ; and it had been before so
stated by Mr. Perceval ; and under that view of the
case, Parliament had been then satisfied with a less
perfect investigation of the subject than it would
otherwise have insisted on. The Noble Lord had
beard with great pleasure the declaration on the sub-
ject, contained in the Speech from the Throne ; but
although it did great honour to his Majesty's personal
feelings, it did not relieve Parliament from its duty,
when called upon to arrange the Civil List, to in-
quire into the grounds on which its arrangements
were to be established. He judged it necessary, at
leas, to call for the printing of the former accounts,
and the addition cf what further information might
be found necessary. He would not then offer iris
opinions on the subject in detail, but he would say,
that the principle of economy, at all times to be
observed', was then absolutely indispensable. The
Noble Lord said, there was another principle of great
importance, and that was such an arrangement of
the Civil List as would ascertain what portion was
collected for the maintenance and support of the
Crown and Royal Family, and what for National
purposes. The latter was the principle professed to
be acted upon in the year 1816, but it was not then
earriLoi far enough. To arrange the Civil List so as
to separate the expenditure under the immediate di-
rection and controul of the King and Royal Family
from that which related to objects of a National and
variable nature, would be the most satisfactory and
simplest course. It would, in that case, be proper
to throw upon the Consolidated Fund everything
Merely public or contingent, leaving to the King
whatever was requisite to support the dignity of the
Crown, and leaving to the Public all that was liable •
to uncertainty and fluctuation. He repeated, that he
did not then mean to go into detail on the subject ;
he only wished, in a general manner, to show how the,
matter might be simplified—for instance, it was no
advantage that the allowances to the Judges in the
Courts of Law, and the salaries to Foreign Ministers,
should be mixed up with the expenditures of the
Royal Family. The whole of the expenditure ought
to be divided into that for the support of the Crown
and Royal Family, into that for the maintenance of
the Public Officers, and into what was ill its nature
variable and contingent. Such a disposition would
establish a more intelligible and useful mode of
making up the public accounts. He concluded by
rn.,ving—" That the information contained in the
ito.port of the year 1816 be printed, and that the
Mouse be furnished with an estimate of the fatale
p-robable and annual charges of the Civil List."
Lord LIVERPOOL said, that at no time, upon
the cominencement of a new reign, was it the cus-
tom of Parliament, when granting what was re-
quired for the support of the dignity of the Crown,
whether it did so by permanent or temporary reve-
nues, or by a specific Civil List, to proceed upon a
Committee of Itn:uiry. Ile would not, however,
take upon him to deter:Mon whether our ancestral
were right or wrong in their conduct on this topic,
but he might fairly say, that as a complete investi-
sation had been entered int.., not four years since,
npon this subject, it was not necessary at present to
over the same ground again. Parliament had,
at that time, made its arrangements in accordance
:he Reports cf Committees of both Houses; the
info! :nation obtained from which, was therkautficient
for the intended arrangements. In 1816, the object
of tlot Noble Loru's motion had been obtained, as
far as was ads alltag ..ous to the Public. The prin-
ciple was, to take every portion of expenditure that
cur.%.2llier.Lly could be taken from the Civil Lie, and

throw it on the `Consolidated Fundnot as a dead
charge—but as a charge which, from Session to
Session, was under the kontroul of Parliament; so
that whenever there wet niabilit; to profusibn or
abuse, then Parliament had over the expenditure an
annual -Ilea. With respect to other branches set-
tled on as late Majesty, it was impracticable to make
i‘
some of heat certalb and invariable—even the ex-
penditure for the immediate support of the Royal
Household must of necessity be liable to fluctuation.
He doubted the policy of separating the maintenance
of the Royal Farnily from the Civil Government;
he would state his reasons male at large when the
question came to be discussed. It was hitherto the
constitution of the realm, that the expenditure of
the Crown should be connected with the permanent,
expenditure of the country. It would be highly ins-,
proper to alter it now, and to insulate the Royal
Family ; and, besides, the principle would be very
difficult of application. Since the declaration of his
Majesty from the Throne, the House stood on grounds
very different from what it had ever stood upon
before. The arrangements in 1816, were made for
his present Majesty as Regent; and if any difference
was to be made in the case of King from that of
Regent, it would properly be a plea for something
more; but his Majesty had stated that he wished for
nothing additional. He (Lord Liverpool) did not
think this ought to be made a question of right, but 1
one of expediency. The Parliament had the right
to institute the inquiry, if it pleased, at the com-
mencement of a new reign ; but what he contended
for was, that. the exercise of it, in the present in-
stance, could not be productive of the smallest ad-
vantage. However, when the subject came before
the Ilouse, he would enter into a more ample refu-
tation of the opinion of the Noble mover.
Lord KING snpported the motion of the Marquis
of Lansdowne. He thought this was the proper time
to go into a full inquiry. Toe inquiry in 1316 could
not be as perfect and satisfactory as one entered into
now, because it related to a vested interest in the late
King. That vested interest stood then in the way of
proper freedom of inquiry. it was necessary that
such a classification of the accounts should take place
as would prevent the confusion to which they were
at present liable ; for instance, the Speaker of the
House of Commons was paid, in one part, out of the
Consolidated Fund, and in tlie other, out of the Civil 1
List ; a new arrangement might be made, which
would preserve to the Crown whatever was necessary
for its dignity, and settle the others on the most eco-
nomical principle. He contended that the arratrrb e-
ment of 1816 ought not to be made the basis of the
new one; because that was a year of lavish expendi-
ture, of high prices, and of debased currency. To
make it, therefore, the criterion of the new establish-
ments, would be to impose on the Nation. To save
expense, it was requisite that inquiry should be
adopted. Such a plan ought to be contemplated as
would make it the interest of the Crown to be econo-
mical. Ills Lordship then touched upon certain ex-
penses, which he contended ought not to be mixed,
up with the necessary expenditure of the Crown,
such. as that of 8300,000 to Ministers at Foreign,
Courts. As the case at present stood, it was the in-
terest of the Crown to increase the number of those
who were qualified in this way for pensions ; and,
therefore, a new and more economical arrangement
should be adopted.—The motion was acceded to.