Star.
London, England, 1817-05-17 00:00:00

EAST INDIES.

Although the particulars of the difference betwixt
Lord AsillEnfiT and the Chinese Court have not as
yet come before us in any official shape, we are ena-
bled, from private infmmation, to offer what we be.
lieve will prove a pretty correct outline of what hap-
pened. Ho-Kvica•Ne had invited Lord Asuteasy to
visit him privately as Prime Minister, previous to
his introduction to the EMPEROR. His Lord',hip rio-
ceeded accordingly, along with a few only ot his
suite, and in no great pomp of state, to what his
Chinese guides told him was, and he conceived to.be,
the palace of the Minister r gn being here ushered
into a splendid anti-chamber, his Lordship and fol-
lowers were required to make some very absnrd and
inexplicable obeisances to a :art of something in
yellow cloth ; and when they had, for the sake of
accommodation, partially acquiesced in them, a dorr
was suddenly opened which led into another cham-!
ber, and the Prime Minister informed Lord AMIIERvT.
that he would now introduLa him to the Eatexuon ! I
—His Lordship, much surprised at this unexpected
intimation, t i ne Minister Ho-Kineo-ve, that he
could not conestently with the dignity of the illus.
trious Monarch be represented, condescend to be in- I
traduced in so clandestine a manner, nor under such
a want of preparation as precluded that splendour ot
circumstances which belonged to the Ambassador of
the BIUTMI KING. The PriMe Minister notwith-1
standing persisted in pressing Lord AA:IIEIIST to enter
the Imperial presence, and on his Lordship maki g
a motion to retire, was even so rudely urgent, as to
give him an impulsion fanned with his hand, on
which (as our information goes) one of the English
Officers in attendance on Lord A --MMERST, drew his
sword—ardisplay which naturally produced much
contusion, but which had the effect of preventing any'
farther opposition to the retirement ot his Lordship
and suite. The sequel is already kinowto—The Em-
peror, having been acquainted with the dupl city of
his Minister's conduct, immediately dismissed him :
but was withheld by some new point of ceremony
from making that reparation to our Ambassador
,which his insulted dignity demanded.

Public curiosity is strongly eciteci by the an-
nouncement of the speedy publ'edion of Lady Mott.
asses a, Frasier." Extracts have he., n read in rrivate
circles, and report speaks of it as exhibiting the most
brilliant view of society and manners in Parii ever
produced. It is to appear next week at Paris as weil
AS London.
LITERARY GAZETTE AND JOVRXAL OP BELLES LET-
Tales, se.—The Seventeenth Number of this interest-
ing new Weekly Journal, published this day, contains,
among other articles—
•. Portraits In High Lifer Lord Lttra; Ode on a Prospect of
Almack's Assembly Rooms, by General Fitzpatrick ; Lines on
the Duchess of Devonshire. Modern Poets: Wordsworth and
Coleridge. On Milo-Dramas; The Ezamioer txamlnedoor
Observations on the Round I :ble ; Essays; M. Menke of Ber-
lin's Discovery ; On the Spotlit's Inquisition ; Miss Plunstnes
Narrative of a Residence in Ireland; /slot.' of a Temple of
Victory ; 1 he great Norfolk Window; Esbillition of Pictures
at the Rata! Academy; French Exhibli Gin of Seuipt tire ; Fiends
Manners; Roman Letters; Renzarks Yates Operi L'Agied ;
rb. Touchstooe, ate. acc.
This raper is seat, tree of postage, to all parts of the
country. Offices, 50, Conduit-street, and 159, Strand.
. It is nniversAlqacknowledged. by the most respee-
'able part of the profession; that the Medical Bomb, estab-
lished by the celebrated Surgeons of Chart°. te House, lilackfriars
Road, and WOodstatik.street, Oxiord-air,ist (a few doors tram
Send street), are the (ovate,' head fur 'deice. It is a far. that,
oy the muted toms of these Gestietnen, upenfrds of Six '1 hou-
sand Patents brie bees eared atutually ut obstinate Disea.es ;
away of whom had been discharged from Hospitals, ,and bun•
drub bad been imprOperly treated Dy persons ignorant of at. in.
portent breech of the peofissitte.—.lassrs. Coerce, Monitor,
and t.* are censultod daily by roll ranks of people, at enth of their
isselallshinetitta et by letters from the Country, bating their
ea* whew Medielost and Advice tie sent, to all parts of the
iiingdont.—Theee are dde•apites as each leuese, si.ti private raoms
or fausles.--ateet Charlotte Fliitiee. orpoilte the Its w 'Rowland
1-11:1e Owed; of Woodstock Mire, mar New livid street.
•

HOUcE OF LORDS. MAY-Id. •
• Counsel were heard respecting the Appeal of the Bishop ot
dare o. Smi haul ether.. In proceed spin on Wednesday.
Their Lordship. then al-awned for smite these tiering plitanris
Oa the restimng of he Hituie, Petitions were preseitted from
the Universities iit Cambrdot. and °mord slalom the Catbona
Claims; the formt r by his Highness r e Mate of C4pur......
and the !Auer by I.mA Os INViLf.e (tit ceepectiveCLanceliors),
being re-td, the PetHatts were severally Lll up.in the table.
lord L:4:II.LE aiso presented ap; titian trona the Cir.;
Bristol against the practice of ktlttents in Aid. Laid upon the tame.
A nan.ber of rills, chiefly te.tte or Lical, wc;e brought up
from the t tun:nuns by Sir Jrist as Gandaw. Mr. liaoctiFl4,and
others, rind rcati the first time.

CATEIOI.IC QUESTION.
The Order of the 134 x, on which.their Loreihipi
wrre summoned, briag read.

The Earl of DONOITfIIIMORF. rose; in. nate,.
;fiance of his notice, to bi ing tinder the consideretitea
their Lord...hips the Claims G f his Majesty's R. 0..
man Cadiolic Abiects in Ireland. Before lie entered
upon the views Which he should 'submit upon than
mornentdons question to the Hone, there vets a cir.
curnstenee which he felt it rieht to erplein. Their
.prdsl.ips would consider areaways-3 as discussing
in that night's debate not only the claims of Cho:"
whose Petition,. Wc had the honour of presenthig on a
former bet also the me PC;10002 which had
ieme time laid upon the table-,ih one from it highly.
rzspeetah:e pretion of the Irish Roman •Cathtiiitea
known by the name of the Secede! s—the other Isom
the Catholic Liishope and Clergy of Ireland. fl 4
had the authority el a written commtinieation feel%
the former, for stating that it was their wf,ls te have
their Petition taken into consideration un that nigbt
and it was clear that ,the latter also desired and cal.
cnlated upon their application bei:.g also considered
upon the same occasion, from their having deputed
two of their body, whom he knew to be highly re-
spectable, to promote by their personal preseine it
Landon, the granting of their claims. He therefore.
stood beferttheir Lordships the AdvoCate of all LIS
Catholic cnimtrymen, of whatever party, or.lers of
degree. He should rot trespass upon the i:.Julgence
of the How. by. going ioto the generel merits of this
question. so often stated and never fairly met. The
single object to which he should confine himself on
that night, was to roi-nu, calumnies which had gone
lately Abroad against the Irish Roman Catholics—to
stigmatise the slanders that had been circulated
against then; with more zeal and acrimony than ram
at any former period—and to correct, as tar as he
was able. the utifounded nod unfair impieSsioni. of
the claims of the Petitioners, which it was souilst to'
create through the medium the puhlic'presse-eraS
great organ, which however perverted in some eaeS4*
would, he trusted, for ever retain all it; f tree and
.freedom, in spite of even the Nnlite Viseceat anal Vs
recent and extraordinary crusades: (Hoar, hoar,) his
Scheme to erect every single Magistrate 'le his pctty
dear irt into a licenser of the press you evety subject;
religioas or political, hit mieht treat. It was
unfnrtunate that it Lad beet' made the instrument of
exciting it:hien against the Cathacr. Never did
there exist upon this subject a higher degree At
anger in the public mind. What was the prediea.
ment in wh'eli, under those circumstances, the Ca=
tholics were )laced ? What was the Eitinplaint ulticli
they might truly make that night ra'elit they
say, We are maligned in our charactcs, cur
r.ligion, out loy, thy, and our conduct; roil the
very sander vehieli we stiffer vxclades us frim the
equal enjoyment of the Caostitution and ;he Lavrt,"
It was unnecessary for him to detail. !.bobs equally
despicable and atrocious—or such a
.character ag
*read make it appear di :t the authors of them would
r, vire the scenes of religious fanaticism whiCh stain-
ed a former period. Theit Lordships, tto cdoubt, had
(many of them at leart) these libels put into their
hands, whit a view to poisoning that night's dehate=a
records of Protestant martyrs— veterrients of nticieLt
scenes exageerated or perverted-- aid charges tbe
most abominable against the characters of the P.::r.-
tiiiners, as to their religious'and dill creed ; as if it
were desired to press down the Catholics into a ninrd
bumble state, every art. evils eisgine bad been mot
ployed to elasperete and prejtidice the public mind
'on the suhject of their claims; and tie regretted to
say that the efforts of the maliynent had not wholly
failed. These were not, how,vi•r, the only dill:reit-
ties the Catholics had to eecounter, and perhaps ta.t
leeen the lea:a—wliei he reflecte • ttpcn the tncx ;:tad
/winner of the Nt:ide Lord cm the V.:n(llE2er, for
whose character he entertained Cie highest respect--.-
when he medicd to mind the warmth of that Not.'.hi
land Learned Lord span an iocierilt.ll aqu,ion to
!great question—calling with all the e..eig!:t of his c!..a.
r cater and his place, upon the House, to resist a
measure which aimed a vital blow at the Censtitu-
11tion of the State,. he cbuld not disguise from himself
the fearful obstacles which the PetitiOners had to sur.
mount. What was the meaning of the Noble and
Learned Lord's phrase ? for ceftainly that Noble
Lord could never use one that had no meaning. '/t
was no less than this, that all who supported the me...
sure which.was the subject of that night's d..base,
aimed a blow at the very vitals of the Constituties-e.
(C, it: of Order! and rte, no!).
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that using
the expression which had fallen nblll him on tbe
night alluded to, it was not his intention to impute
to those who supported this metiure any such design
against the Constitutior. Upon this stsbjeci his own
opinion was unchanged. That opinion he always
expressed, and defended friciy, %title:tit casting aey
imputation upon those irlio eppcsed and With
the least view. on the ozcasiuti in question, of in-
fluencirig in any manner ilea night's debate.
The Earl of DONOUGHISIORE, sifter a few
words in the Way of etelenation, proceeded to ;sifting
that the Various objeestona which 'hid beets urscd
agiinst theft claims, were unfounded or
fint. With respect to domestic nomite
was thi esietacal Seclicif 4.lsresitie

that the p-ictice had L,nb cbre.:w-G,

or illuiory.--
ation, *bleb
wau!d adrate

por proposed, a real security was afforded, by a re.
palar c-ntiination of this practice for ever, and
which the lit:ra was o illing to ratify by treaty, which
was v... mna %urn' Halal guarantee. With respect
to the Veto. on ssh.eti s<t .mueh bad been' said, in
viewing; that print, the different mode of arranging
and siet;ditig upon ecclesiastical promotions in this
count, y, fyt:yn what*: weald, is suclui case, in Ire-
landiought to be crinsidered..liere.ihek‘taltsaCtions
would be immediately under the eyis of the Govern'.
rnent—there it would be under the government by
representation, and eventually it would be found,
that these ap7ointritei.v. in tht• Catholic Prelacy, wire
given t,i some second tit third clerk in the Castle-
yard of Dublin. lle paLtgyrized the eharacter.ind
conduct of the Cati.oltc Clargy in Ireland, metito-
ti-nis andlaudabie, and I,e thought it would be well
tot the pe ice c.l t!,at cct:t.try, if these persons had
s..cli an inflaence oti:t their Hocks, as they were sup,
" •

posed to have. He then 'proceeded to object ter-a
third consideration, which was herd out latterly as an
additional security, namely, lie ey.prdn lit of paying
the Catholic Clergy. Tnat meritoricus set i I men
wanted no civil boursty whet:ever—they desired no
other stipends but those which were alre:dy allott-d
to them, fur. the discharge of their religinus dur;e,.
The conduct of the Legislature towards the Catho-
lics s:ioisicl, in sound policy, justice, and wisdom, he,
he thought, a direct and absolute concession to the
prayer of their petitions, to admit them treely to all
caces and situations under the Government whatever,
save and except only those connected with patio
stage in e:rJesiastical concerns, and he thought that
the Protect int Church should be left to the exclosive
management uf Protestants only ; and on the o.fie4
liattel he %%mild leave to the Catholics all the admi-
r:istration of their own Church. In e'ecidkg the
question. Pariiament should look to the actual cir-
cumstances tit Ireland ; they should consider that
lull eight-tenths of the population of Ireland were
now praying for the enjoyment of their rights—
and that alone ought to be sufficient to induce an
immediate consideration of the subject—(lbar.)—
The Noble Earl then proceeded to the discussion of
various objections, which he described as held out
against ati acquiescence in i'ne Catholic claims ; as a
portion uf the outrages ur excesses which had taken
place in Ireland, and which his Lordship considered
as attribufable to the criminal conduct of Orangemen
—the' re•establishment of the Jesuits under the. Papal
Government—and theanathemaswhich were launched
against a general use of the Scripture ; these, he ar-
gued, were totally unfounded as objections
to the Catholic Claims. While desc'ialog on the
last meistiened point, tie referred to a work ',iodated
by a Right Reverend Prelate, fur whom, however,
he had the highest possible respects—the doctrine held
out its which' seemed to him to militate against a ge-
niral USG of the Bible, nearly-as much as that which
appeared to be held out in another quarter. After
some blither observations; in the view of establishing
the (one unions he songlit for, the Noble Earl moved
h i the Petitions presented to the Houie on the
part orlis Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ike-
tad. be referred to the consideration of a Committee."
Theilibliop of LLANDAFF had rose thus early
in the evening, thZbting his ability to du justice to
subject, aid knowing that the remarks he shorn'
Is..ye to make were of a general description. He
should not liallow the /shible Earl through the whole
train of his argument., but should briefly state the
catitei which induced him to entertain sentiments so
different froth the opinions which hid just been so
riskeetably maintained. If the question was one uf
relpgiotit liberty, and wholly apatt from political con-
arderations, he should rejoice to co-operate with the
Noble Lord, towards an end so debatable as that of
aftlowinga conscientious freedom of opinion. But
der Catholics of lielmid should no longer talk of pains
alid penalties, when they were as free in the exercise
of their religion as the members of the Established
Llitirch. All that they now called for was an eaten-
Opts of political power. This they might endeavour
touttain without inquiring into the charge of religi-
La •
intolerance. It WAS however,_ the object of the
Mese to separate the political from the religious
pill', WASnot the question whether the Council
olTient were right or not in their decisions, or
whether the docuitie of transubstantiation were' true
oi false ? Whatever opinions were entertained upon
Oese tubjects,.. there could be liule to condemn, with.
the exception of their refusing to permit the free use
or the Bible. These were, however, erroneous doc- •
trines, and were in some respects calculated to pre-
vent the membeis of socie(y
.from becoming good
members of the State. ' Such a conclusion he was
justified from pan experience in making.. Hi should
now stale the most powerful .argurneot
_which had
heti advar.ced in favour of the Catholic cjairiis, and
it Oil argument admitted of a satislactury.answer,
there could h, n' gonads for going into a Commit-
tie on this btisisess. It was, in fact, the most eligi-
ble point halite petitioners to have urged. They say
that citaj. employment should be regulated by civi
worth t;helorethat point could be conceded to
than, it seal necessary-to be made acquainted with
the standard by which that worth was to be estimated.
The matter to ba settled was, whether.the religion
Of one man was better fur a State tlian th 4 practised
by another man ? but all that either could claim was,
that tee should not be punished for his religious upi.
'lions. The Catholics were taught fio ups'. to their
numerical force, rather, than to confide in the force
of their, arguments. It was. still civil worth which.
deterinipeit the choice-of the State. the allegiance
oT the Churchman was founded..eptin the King's ac-
knov;leet6ed supremacy both in Church and 'State.
The catholic only admitted Of eked supreinacy ; but
even ttlat was of a nature wholly different from. the
civil allegiance of the Protestant Dissenters.. The
latter were ,whully governed by the So. vestign, but
in the former. case, where the power of a foreigner
was admitted, the-Civil allegiance could 'not fail of
being. weakened bf th.e ecclesiastical. An anomaly
in the Government most inevitably be produced by
the mingling, of foreign allegiance with domestic,
t ere one :4 iv4igh was
.distinct from the other:.
liape4ly.in this mpiritra the civil aliegisnce waeblen.:
Ogilts,4l gir;.lll4l9use::but if diet were
. not so con-
nected, it.woule.he ssaop,.to fomee whattnaster.
the Catholic bautdet 'apply„to; a bolution ofbis doubts.
Oat then wou/st be
.0 dieuct inttiterence with the
idegienie to else King. There was the soul on one
aide and the body on the other. The fears for the
tutsra:r would predominate, and the isthsalce of a!

foreign Prince might be devoted to purposes subverel
sivc of -the'Constitution. Those who submit to such
infinence;•then should not he trusted with the care of
the Constitution ittelt. This was tailed an einighten-
ed age, and the example of Wean.ce.was held out as
a proof that Catholics and., Protestants m'glit be ad-
mitted to the Councils of the State. From this doc-
trine he differed: The power here would devolve
from the Protest upon theCetholic, whereas France
was a Catholic and not a Protestant State, and the
Protestant there was in direct allegiance to the King,
to whose C"nncils he was called. B.ut the English
and Irish Catholics admitted an Allegiance to a
foreign Sovereign win held the sceptre of religion,
and while views were directly nppnsed to those of
the domestic Prince. Let the Catholics be judged
by their own standard, and when their allegiance
-was found to be alike, let them be alike admitted to
the privileges of the Constitution.—(l/car, hear!)—
He would then grant. that the State might be as
well administered by one as by the etlu It was
impossible to estimate the civil wrath sinless the elle,
giance was single aid entire, instead of its being as
lit was at • present derided and distracted. Die Ca.
ttolics now claimed to be alike admissible to all
offices of trust and power, but those claims ought
not to be allowed. He did oat deny that the.Catho-
lies were useful members of the State, beet their uti-
lity would be stil greater were it not for the fetters
which bound them to a foteign Prince. He would
acknowledge their tespcctability, and regretted that
they were dissatisfied when they ought to be obedient.
It was not worth while to enter into topics of minor
consequences. But he would proceed to domestic
neeenation, which was a term well calculated to do
assay the objections excited by foreign iefluence, and
di:wine could not be effective. It was stated, that
it xas the constant practice to recommend the coed-
jet or of the dec.asesi Bishop, but that individual
could clot la conic the coadjutor without the previous
sanction of the Pope. (The Right Reverend Prelate
was here inter tested by loud cries of (,r der,
These were occasioned by the Earl of Dononglimore
having accidentally risen from hie seat, and its being
supposed that the Noble Earl was about to interrupt
the speech.)
The Earl of DONOITGHMORE expressed the
highest respect for the Right Reverend Prelete who.
had addressed the House, and declared that it was
not with any view to give him the slightest interrup-
tion that lie rose, at that particularennenent. •
The Bitherpot-LANDAFF iesumed.. He should
not trouble their Lordships with any. further observa-
tions. He had stated his opinions, candidly on this
subject, and regretted the necessity he felt of voting
against emotion coming from a (loaner so rispecteble.
The Bishop of NORWICH observed, that the Ca-
tholics of both England and Ireland had given the
most positive proofs of cavil allegiance, and he
thought it hard that a conscientious adherence to the
religious opinions which they had inherited from their
forefathers. should deptire them of the enjoyment of
civil rights. It was an innocent religion, and he
hoped that in the nineteenth century the religions
opinions of men of the most polished nation in Eu•
rope—of Noblemen of distinguished character, would
not be a bar to their being admitted to those privi-
leges to which they were entitled. He was far from
being indifferent upon the subject.; in his opinion it
was innocent, and he had the sanction of the Legis-
ture in making use of the term. The Catholics were
good and loyal subjects; they had taken the oath,
and had taken the declaietion. On what then did
his Learned Friend ground his opinion, that they
were less good.subjects for the tenets they professed ?
It was provably the last time lie should have the
honour of addressing the House on, at oe any other
subject—(Hear, hear,)--and he was gratified in being
able to lift his voice to inquire whether that unfortu-
nate country (Ireland) was to be the bulwark of the
Empire, or whether see was to remain a perpetual
annoyance?—(Naar.) He would wish that the Cite
chokes would come forward with some expedient
not essentially differing from their own religion, and
not essentially dangerous to the Protestant Establish
mem. There was no occasion to depart from the
present mode of electing the bishops, many of
whom were good in private life, and used their
utmost endeavours to impress upon the minds of
the lower orders the duties of civil obedience.—
The Right Reverend Prelate then read a quotation
respecting Pariah Priests, which eulogized them at
some length. He then mentioned the names of
Locke and Molyneux, whom he stated as being fa..
veureble to the principle of universal toleration.
These, he said, were two of the greatest reesoners
that the country had produced, and it was froth a
careful study of their works that he had been induced
to change his early sentiments, and to lament the ex-
clusion of lour millions of people from their civil
privileges. It had lately been well said by a Gentle.
man in another place; who on many occasions had's°
ably advocatedehe Catholic Cause, " 'Mew me real
danger, and you shall have every security." • He
would wittier say with Dr. Johnson, " ha that would
raise an outcry at the danger of Popery, would 'cry
out 'file at a deluge." The Catholics both of Eug-
land and Ireland; disabled as they were, had borne
their privations with 'a forbearance and moderation
which had seldom been equalled—(Nier. hear.) In
return; they had been exposed toilisulteand persecu.
lion(' inconsistent withChiistlin charity—(firer.)
'The. Bishop of OSSOKY said, he had the highest
veneration for the authority of Mr. Locke ; but it his
memory servedhim correctly. it was the opinion of
that great man, that further concession could nbt be
-Made to the 'Catholics without danger. He referred
the Roase to ihe pastoral letteis of the 'killer Bishops
in Ireland. and particularly that of the titular Arch-
bishop of Dublin, for that soundness of doctrine
which was claimed for them.' In theft. !mete their
1
Lordships would, on the . contrary, find strong
grounds for, alarm. .Here the Right Rev. Prelate
reed some eructs from works published by the 'Ca-
tholics of 'lreland, in order to thew how opposite
their principles and opinions were, from aVery thing
intended to be brought forward for their relief.—
' These persons never would, and never could give up
foreign' jurisdiction ; and when they did, they• Must
cease to be Catholics e and it would baimpostibreto
treat with such peenie.with any PgiiPeett of success.
Signor Quatentotti;had stated, that they might safely
give 'up .a eertisiu thattohi inelhe nomination of
Biihops ;* but this Was tejected -by them, because it
.would not suit the designs which they hid of pulling
down the Protestant Church, and Of exalting their

nwn in its steafl., (Hear.) Lt war 044, &ant the
petitioneri Wore. *tidy to take aft isitifftbsinii foreicn,
influence should be exerciard,Over them ;
could not take such an oatb. On ,this subject he
should reaten extract froM-,a pamOhlet, poblishedi
by a highly revered character, who stated, -that all
oaths taken by Catholics prejudicial to their Church,
were held to bt null -and void. He next alluded to
the re-establishment' of the Order of Jesuits by the
Pope ; he was happy to say there were cud), two
places in Ireland where any attempt was made to re-
establish them. The Roman Catholic' religion was
ever active, and every where the same ; in proof of
which he adverted to the conduct lately pursued by
Catholic Bishops in the Netherlands, in oppositiva to
their Sovereign, who was a Protestant. He conclu-
ded by opposing the motion.
The Bishop of NORWICH, in explanation, said
the Catholics abjured the doctrine that Princes exco-
municated by the Pope might be deposed, or put to
death by their subjects.
The Earl of HAR ROWDY considered the chain
which bound men to the Government unchr v. hick
they lived to consist of an infinite variety of links.—
The relzion of the State was one of these, and he
could not think the chain that bound hie) who was
not of the established religion quite so strong, aa that
which he bore who belonged to the national clirch.
But the question on which a polit;ciall had to deside
was, whether the chain in which this link was want-
ing, appeared to he sufficiently strong for all practical
purposes? He asserted the affirmative of this to be
proved, with respect to the Catholics, by experience
and history. It was admitted on all hands that it
was very desirable to conciliate the Catholics, if this
could be done. If then this were so desirable, surely
the attempt ought to be made by going into the
Committee. It had been argued by a Reverend
Prelate, that if the Catholics were admitted into
Parliament, and into the Army and Navy, the two
Houses of Parliament, the Army and the Navy,
would immediately become Catholic. Was it rational
to expect this ? In England it was impossible, but
even in Ireland there was no reason to fear the Pro-
testant interest would be in danger. He could not
admit the propriety of those distinctions made in the
Army, which would allow a Catholic to command
ohe regiment, but which denied him the command
of two. When a man had 'devoted the best part of
his life to a particular profession, had shed his blood,
and was covered with wounds in our service, he was
of opinion that sufficient pledges were obtained for
his fidelity, and no danger from. such persons could
rationally be apprehended, save that which might
grow out of the hard return made under the present
iystem for meritorious services. The system he held
to be junjust,'and was satisfied, from the progress the
question lead already made and was still making, that
it could not long continue. lithe Bi itish Parliament
would lay down the conditions on which► they would
admit the Roman Catholics to a participation is the
privileges enjoyed by other subjects, they (the Ca.
tholic9 would do one of two things—they, would
accept the offer thus made*, or they Would say they
could not avail thentselves•olit ; ansL iu either case,
Parliiinent would have done its duty.' All that could
be done to relieve the Catholics' ought to be done.—
Things could not remain as they were,' and those
who entertained this (pinion (forst, he should think,
concur with him in the propriety of gOing into a
Committee, which would bind them down to no spe-,
cific measure, in order to ascertain what could be,
done to conciliate the Petitioners.:-

The Earl of LIVERPOOL began by paying a
compliment to his Noble Friend, for the ingenuity
with which he argued this question; the same
time be wholly differed from him in opinion. The
motion wachrought forward for the purpose of plac-
ing Roman Catholics, in every respect, on the same
footing with Protestants; and therefore, whoever
voted for going into the Committee, must, by that
vote, pledge himself to make such concessions:--
Therefore, tie could not agree with his Noble Friend;"
when he said that such a vote would not pledge any
of their Lordships to a specific measure. With
respect to the Ecclesiastical part of this question, lie
thought if any concession were to be made, it must
be done without any intefference with the. Catholic
Church. He' knew that in many countries Protestant
Governments exercised authority over Catholics, but
it was only by temporalities they ever exercised any
power over the Church. Now,
.as to the Veto and
domestic nomination, he thought nothing of them,
his objection Was not against the mail named as a
Bishop, nor did he conceive it necessary to interfere
in the nomination. What he objected to was the in-
thence the man was under when he was named.—
The mode of nomination then was of no consequence
—the best Mail might benaminated; and still he was
under foreign iufluence, equally dangerous with that
of Any other man. If concessions then were to be
made, lie would never fetter them by any such con-
ditions. It might be true, that equal privileges
should be grained .to all his Majesty's subjects ; but
the-question was, did they come with, equal condi-
tions ? He maintained that the Constitution of this
country was inseparably connected with the Pro-
testant Church. These was an intimate • connexion
between Church and State; it was a connexion'
which pervaded every pan( of .our system. The
King on the Throne-,• and every person at the head
of the State, were bound to communicate with the
Church. The Parliament was .buund. to do so on
certain occasions. Even the Judges, When on Circuit,
could not open their Courts without going ihrouy,h
the religious ceremonies established, by the Church.—
Now, it these concessions. were made to the 4:athbz
lies, would it not be said that they ought to extend
to all classes of Dissenters Could the exclusion be
extended to different:Sects' who conscietitiousle ad-
hered to their particulitteithr If those concessions
were made, the Parliament would no longer be a
Protestant Parliament..• The effect • would be to dis-
solve all' connection between' the Church' and. State 'as
such. At the revolution, all the
,system was made
complete; and it was declared that the King.must
be a Protestant. Therefore, he would ask,. it it was
possible to draw a fair line of exclusion between the
regal office and other offices. He did not think that
the concessions in question would heal the animosil
ties existing between Catholics and Protestapts—and
it was because he thought it would have the very op-
polite effect thee lit: opposed'. the motion for going
into a.Ctimmitteq: Ito the motion tlieuld be asiopled;
and Catholics were to be ,put on the seine. rot/sing •
with Protestants, still we should have a Cathirlic

pplation in Ireland with a l'Atestant estahlishrreet.
In such a state of things, could there he any sec%
thiqz as peace or harmony ? Such VAS the eezul,,,,
situation of Ireland, that no such system creole! bt
*adopted there as existed in other counirie , where the
population followed the establishment. T't Tiestinn
then was, whether such coLcess-one as t':ese stated
by the. Ntible.l:nveie- enithel he made with safety ?
his epioen, the effect of this would he, to-weelr.-1,6a
establishment, by taking away the pewit Ira tap,
potted it. Even then,'heaske.f,.if the evil crimil.iped
of was likely to he corrected ? "Nei, every individual
Catholic would still feel that Fe was paging teveards
the expense of the establishment, and he rine.e feel
an interest in doing it away. He entertained no in-
Vielieus feelings towards Catholics; but he must say,
that their religion was tine e; exclusion. The Cattas.
tics welt the exclusionists—for they bud sfeclar;!l in
a late resolution, that they tonsilered ever ttleratioia..
ti be inconsistent e.-ith their faifh..:-We were Own'
about to treat persons who, it they had the.
power in their hands, would exclude es—(Hae,
hear.) There was but one safe course to pursue with
Repro to our eeclesiestieal 2nd civil Constitution;
nnd that WAS, to keep them t4,eether. To make these
concessions would be tr level all distinctions, to Un.
settle men's mindi, and weaken the f-undations
our political structure. To any concession that could
be made consistently v ith tie principle be laid dawn,.
he would be ready to give lrs ac4ent ; Frit he never
would suffer a c! inge to take place in ibe Const:zu-
%ion that went to alter Le l'rott.s,tant es;eb::shment,
and theretore he must oppose the motion teeiate the
House.

Earl DARNLEY conceived that nn crtry
ciple of sound policy and justice it was necess try to
make the concessions now called fir, and Ca.
tholics should enjoy the same privileges as Protestants
did, on their giving such security as might be agreed
on. And it was a monstrous proposition to suppose
that by giving them a full participation of rights,
they would feel. disposed to overturn the Govern.
ment, which they must then have such an additional
interest in supporting. The more he considered ilk
subject, the More he was convinced, that wiesout the
concessions in question, kreland would never be in a
tranquil or happy state, and he hoped the Catholics
would not now be disappointed in'tbeir expectations.

Lord GR EN VILLP:did not-conceive it necessary
. to go over the wide and comprehensive field that had
already been entered on by others. A Right Reverend
Friend of his had once truly said, that this was not a
1 question for nice metaphysical distinctions, but that
it was a question for Statesmen and Legislators. He
would, sot 'yaw enter into the refinements of theoloe
gical reasoning ; the subject 'was one of too prat
and gigantic it:won:time:for such ecnsiderationt.—,
The 1-isur%was to look onlx to, the practical effects
of the measure proposid. Ilere was a practical
questiOn. coming home to the interests and (obeys
of every man ; it was one in which them were nem
but iniainary dangers, end on the ground of entse
dangers a measure, invelvirg in it the slfety and
happiness of the State, was to be resisted. He could
not see how it untold shake the cennexitis. between
the Cl..u:cht and the. State. Nothing could tend mete
to strengeten the connexion between Church aed
State, and uphold the Constitution, than to c invitee
these people that the Government considhred :he
worthy tit being ousted. The evil nine comp:aimed
of originated in the persecuting spirit of the penal
thews; and it was continued by the pertinacious
refusal to do away those lass —(Hoar, hear).—
fie defied the ingenuity of man to spew how the;
removal, and the granting of privileges to the Catao-
Jics, could weaken our Establishment. The lac, as it
now stood, gave fo the Catholics all that was dan-
gerous, it danget was to be apprehended. The mili-
tary rank to which a Catholic could arrive gee
him more power to abuse his trust and do mischiel
than 'if he were a General Officer. Ile knew no nsx
presbmptuous enough to answer the question ef ,:n
Noble Earl, whether, if Catholics obtained what thl
nose asked, it would rest thew ? That depended ea
the course of events, on the wisdom of legislating, ail
a variety of other causes ; hut it was his opinion—en
opinicn confirmed by experience, that the best war
of consolidating the strergth and the safety of tie
British Empire was, to extend the principle of [Arra-
rtion to that important part of it which lrelatd in-
eluded. if there was one thing more than mother
estimable in the character cf William Ill; it was, tfa
he was the first to adopt this liberal and enlarrsd
policy. Toleration was the doeuine, nay, tie nein-
detiou of the glorious revolution; and all the elf ass
that were now made f9r extending the enjoy:nein d
political rights to his Majesty's Catholic subjtco,
were nothing more than attempts to restore and re•
assert tie principles of tie Constitution. It was for-
merly objected, that it would be dangerous to mate
an experiment of this kind in a time ~t• war ; but that
was now at an end. Ireland had put tcrih ter
strength, and sactiticed her best blot); in conqusrisg
a peace, and now was the time to acknowledge to
services by doing that - which cett:sinly ought to IA
done; first, because it was an act of duty; and,
secondly, because it was a matter of interest and el'
pediency, and v:ould tend to make the two coootries
one in heart and affection, as they were one in iallai•
cal constitution.—( Hear, Afar.)
Earl BATHURST took a. general view of the
,varions opinions entettrined by the friends to Cell:c-
lic Emancipation. He (injected to go into a Cur".;
mince without some specific phisbefore them; ar i•
they came out of it without doing any thing to meet
1 the wishes of the petitioners, disappointment rou4
I he the consequence, and in the Committee, ra het
than do this, the) might be induced to Agree to 0..4
1 which, on better consideration, they would think ;la-
ivolitic. When it was :hewn .that the Eattdisked
Church would be sale if the Catholic Claims were con-
iceded, he might be disposed to entertain the ale4'4l`.
His Noble Friend had skid things could cot sta. d
has they were. He n ould answer this by salq,
Ithings bad stood v:htere they were for some tini..:,e,ta
he would not consent- to quit the ground on witirl:e
hid rested so long, to pass through bogs and aw -
I rasses, till some spot could be pointed out to Lan
1 where he cou;d stand a., well. .If they departed :To=
where they were at present, they might taJt he able to
stop till they had gone on from measure to measure,
and made the situation ef the Protestant sUbjell
Worse than that of the Roman Catholic ; and obi%
this was dune, and tare Protestant ascendancy till
~.
.sacrificed, he raw no prospect tit satisfying the Cele-
lica of Leland. With this feeling he would not nw