Star.
London, England, 1819-12-15 00:00:00

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go to destroy the original constitutional structure of
the House of Commons—(Hear, hear). That snate-
e, as ivexisted from time immemorial, consisted
of the Representation of Counties, Towns, aud Bo-
roughs. Such it was when Montesquieu said it was
a model of perfection. He, for one, could never ad-
mit the, expediency of any Reform which would ex-
clude a single particle in the principle of that struc-
ture—(Hear, hear). It was said, indeed, that the in-
fluence of the Aristocracy was too great in the Counties,
Towns, and Boroughs, and was inconsistent with the
mature of popular Representation. But objections of
this denription came from persons who did not see
the utility of giving the Aris:ocracy an interest in
assisting the preservation of the Rights of the People
whenever they were endangered. Look te Spain for
instance: there a species of representation existed, in
which the Arittocracy had no influence. The conse-
quence was, that when the contest arose between the
Crown and the People for the continuation of that
form of Government, the People were easily deprived
of the rights they had before exercised, because tha
Aristocracy, having no interest in upholding them,
threw in their weight in favour of the Crown, and
turned the balance against the People—(Hear, hear).
Faults might be pointed out in the state of our Re.l
presentation•—improvements might be suggested—
but, for his part, he should be slow to admit the for.
suer, or to apply the latter. The Constitution had
grown old, it was true ; but it might be compared to
a magic lantern, which, from some accidental defect
or unavoidable decay, distorted some of the figures it
reflected, and gave out others with too feeble a ray.
But still there was magic in its operations—(Hear).
The Constitution did not, indeed, shed its light upoli
splendid paliees or golden temples ! No, it was more
useful ;it shewed to our view thick-set dwellings, the.
inhabitants of which were all equally protected—
(Hear, hear, hear). This was the magic of our Con-
stitution, that at all times it produced men fir for
every exigency of the State—men, who, in' time or
internal agitations, put forth their respective systems
of policy, and supported them by apt and eloquent
arguments—men, who, in time of external war, were
capable of wielding the sword, and of illustrating the
history of the country. When subjects were suggested
for legislative inquiry, whether connected with the
Poor Laws, or the Criminal Laws, men were not
wanted who would devote to them the lights of ex-
traordinary talents, and pursue the matter through
all its bearings with indefatigable patience—( Cheers).
When he reflected that it was the existing Constitti-
tion which produced such consequences as these, he.'
for one, would never consent to any measure which
could endanger it--(Hear, hear). He would add one
word more. It was for the House to weigh well the
necessity of agreeing to some proposition Which would
be received by the People as a measure of concilia•
lion and kindness—(Hear, hear). If they looked into
the histories of the world, particularly that history,
upon which Machiavel bestowed the lustre of his
genius, they would find that countries commenced
tbeir progress towards perfection so soon as the basis
upon which they rested began to enlarge itself, and
to embrace the interests and affections of the People.
They would find also, that countries hastened to de-
cay in which the People were denied every thing, for
a system of this-description tended necessarily to make
them violent, and this result was itself speedily fol-
loWed by the domination of the sword !—(Hear, hear).
When the People were vexed by civil dissensions, then'
was the time for the rapacity and cruelty of ambitious
demagogues, and in such a state of things it was et
easy to extinguish the liberties of the People, as CC,
put out the lights of that House when the debate wits
over. The Noble Lord concluded with moving the
following. Resolutions :
1. Taut it is expedient that all Baroness, in which gross and
notorious bribery and corruption shall be proved to prevail,
should cease to return Mttnbers to serve in Parliament ; proof-
sitar being Made to allow such of the Electors as Alan not have.
Isessrproved guilty of the said offence, to give voter at any Elec-
tion to be held for the County in which such Boroughs shall be
respectively situated.

a. The Cit is spipedient that the right of returning Members to
setvii bilParilainent, so takes from any Borough which shall
bent ban proved to have been guilty of bribery and corruption,
should be given to some great Town, the population of which
shall not be less than 15,000 persons ; or to some of the largest
COuntles.
t. That it is the duty of this House to consider of further
noon' to detect and prevent corruption in the Election of Mem-
bxs of Parliament. •
4. That the Borough of Grampound, in which gross and no-
torious corruption has been•proved to prevail, do cease to send
Members to this House.
—..The-Noble Lr‘rd sat down amid loud cheers).
The SPEAKER read the first Resolution.
Lord NORMANBY seconded the motion. He
would not go into much detail, particularly as the
question had been so ably treated by his Noble Friend.
lie supported the motion without any fear of the
consequences, because he did not see that it touched
any part of the present system. The right of voting
was given for the general benefit of the Community ;
and if it was found that any individual exercised that
right corruptly, there was no doubt that he forfeited
it—( Hear ).—lle did not mean to enter into any
abstract theory ; he believed that this House was for
the most part an equal Representation of the People.
Ent it was manifest that in some cases corruption
existed ; and he would ask, what kind of a Member'
of Parliament was he who was returned by an abiiin
of the elective franchise, which /as at once feta&
and illegal?—(Hear dear).—As to the efficacy .‘
the remedy seggested," what could be more fair thin
to take away the 'right of voting from those who
abused it, and transferring it to those who, from
their numbers and wealth, had a larger stake in die
' welfare Of the country ? Where was the justice or
expediency of confining the elective franchise to such
small Boroughs as those in Cornwall, and-Withhold-
ing it from the large and prosperous Manufacturing
Towns? If they were gifted Vith The right of Soling,
it would tend in a great measure to draw away-thit!
discontent, which, when permitted to collect, for.. -.a
itself into a stagnant tcesdl, that, as. often as it vat!
stirred up, breathed t mosr pernicious pestiletsie
around. J.,et the House look to the represented and'
unrepresented towns, and they would see, that while
the latter were easily agitated and rendered' tumul-
tuous, the former remained tranquil---Vione, /406
The measure before the Houle' did" not necessarily
lead to any general plan of Parliamentary Reform.
And if it was rejected; the consequence would be, to
make people believer that this House was averse to
the adoption of anything in the shape Of Reform:::
( Hear, licer).—kwes ihe'doty-Of the/louse to resist-
tlic ebullitions unpopular ardour for innovation ; but

preessow

at the same tint', they should renumber, that its
structure was founded upon poraarAffection•
and
Lll:oantladnitry
istrike
a
thingwhmokrhe tendeds:ve:e tboloshwaksoure thetftobuentotinscz,
union; than the adoption of any such measure as that
which was proposed by his Noble ir—(Hear).
Lord CASI LER E AG H rose, gi said that he
meant to trouble the House with a few observations;
and, in the first place. be thought it necessary to
recal their attention to" the real practical question,
which was at issue. He congratulated the Noble
Lord opposite upon the temper with which he ap-
proached his subject at the same time, he did not
think, that the Noble Lord had, in his speech, suffi-
ciently separated it from a general proposition, which,
if followed up, would lead to results inconsistent
with the security of the Constitution. There never
was a period at which a more morbid sensibility,
upon the question of Parliamentary Reform, was
more prevalent than at present. Out of doors it was
the general theme, and never did a moment arrive
at Which it might be agitated with less safety, than
the moment at which he had the honour to address
the House—(Hear, hear).—There was that violent
spirit 'abroad, which undervalued every particular
improvement, which refused to listen to any propo-
sition short of a total alteration of the Constitution-
It was, however, a favourable circumstance for the
motion of the Noble Lord, that he had conceived its
expediency, and had given notice of his intentions
upon it, before that spirit, to which he alluded, had
manifested itself. He was happy to believe, that the
motion did not grow out of any recent agititions,
and was not the offspring of any false views of im-
perfection in the Constitution. But the Noble Lord
seemed to conceive, that the practices of which he
complained existed nowhere but on this side of the
House. Was not the Noble Lord aware, that his
arguments would find as copious an illustration upon
his own side of the House, as on that to which be
more particularly adverted ? It was easy to be
shewn, that jiis Majesty's Ministers, who, at pre-
sent, sat in' that House, h td not fewer consti-
tuents than- any equal number of Members on
the other side of the Hoase (Hear, hear).—
Upon the question, however, at isiue, he believed that
when they should come to understand each other, a
slighter difference would be found between the Noble
Lord and himself, than many might suppose. He
would not deny the proposition, that when any place
now represented in Parliament was convicted of cor-
rupt practices, to such an extent as to call down the
displeasure of the Legislature, it ought to be reformed
in such a way as to make it deserving of the confi-
dence of law— ( Hear, hear). To that principle he
had not a particle of hostile feeling in his mind, nor
did he believe it was ever opposed in Parliament.
On the contrary, it was actually recognised by the
Legislature ; and if, in every case which came before
the House it was not carried into effect, it arose from
judicial difficulties s% hich stood in the way. Last'
Session the principle was admitted in three or four
different cases—but the only difficulty which occur-
red, was the mode of legislation upon it. Ofie*Bill
connected with thii principle, was sent to the Lords
last Session. Another was considetably advanced,
and neither met with the least resistance_ from this
side of the House. He should feel no hesitation in
saying, that any Borough which was convicted of
Corrupt practices, ought to be disfranchised—(Hear).
Nothing appeared to his view, in the case of Gram-
pound, which should make it an exception to such
rule. The only real difficulty was, when the fran-
chise was Laken away from that Borough, what was
to be done with the franchise ?—(Hear). He would
net pledge himself to say, that when he should look
into the difficulties arising from that species of Re-
form, he would not find some locil inconvenience,
which would Operate against imparting the franchise
to the neighbouring district. It was obvious, that
the same course of Reforni which might be appli-
cable in one instance, might prove highly inconve-
nient if applied generally. Por instance; it might be
felt exceedingly inconvenient in Cornwall, where there
was such a number of torourhs ieeta-position.
All he contehded 'against was, the g n
al principle.
Where no local difficulties presented' themselves, there'
the principle ought not to be 'resisted. But a was
manifest, from the clibitance. of the 'Noble Lord's
Resolutions; that he had ralien intothe common fault
of creating,a system wlie4 it was unnitetsary, and
of treat rig h too upon iniperreel data. If it was the
wish of the Noble Lord to tire his motion the cha-
racter of a plait of Parliamentary Rdortn, he should
Say, that that was the *fry thing whicb'he ought to
have avoided.. The plan would-perish; fof it would
be found that a theory so constructed would operate
against the Case, for the theory would become'
large, and would be attended with so many incon-
vemencies, that this, of itself, would be a sufficient
reason for rejecting the case upon which it would be
foUrided—(Heer, hear). If the Noble Lord had pur-
sued the straight'and steady path in which he had
first advanktd, be (Lord Castlereagh) and the Noble
Lord would won agree--(Hear, hear),—for then his
object would be 'accomplished, 'without exposing the
House to the ince:Ski of binding itself to an abstract
principle, and of recordin; upon its Journals ReSo-
lotions which hereaftei 'might be found most incon-
venient—(Hear). If the Noble Lord applied 'himself
only to the particular case .of Gramßound ; if, for in-
Stance, he had asked leave to brinrin a Bill, for dis-
franehhing that Borough, and for disposing of the
franchise as he should think fit, he (Lord Castlereagh)
would not be hostile to it, at least he was not now
prepared to look at such a Bill unkindly—( Cheers
I) on: the Opposition ).. But the Noble Lord would
perhaps admit, that there might 'be reasons why a
mode of Reform adapted to one Borough would not
be equally so for another. He was only anxious to
guard-against the establisment of a nornuisupposed to
be equally fitted to every case. Against such a general
principle he most solemnly 'protested, for be believed
that in such a principle political wisdom did not re-
side. If they admitted such a maxim, they would
perhaps only furnish arms for their own destruction.
No doubt, the 'Noble Lord had no wish to let in any
such danger, and be hoped, therefore, that the Noble
Lord would add one more to the many proofs of his
attaChitielit to the-Constitution which he had giSen
in the temperate manner in which he had treated the
question, by taking the particular instanceiaEsino_f(ivesr
Gramc.
pound, tind founding' oil it a
lii might
ord. notice all the Peculiarities in
Mint'.
Corwleaft if 'he chose ; but the•tases should be taken
separately, as often as an instance should occur,

•
winweitt-dse fiderposition of the Legitlittilto was ne-'
carnal* drawnri-4 rinteoarthekeainforisistneestlikuseies whiwchouwoldunld°tresthitelnt-
from the adoption of a general principle. (When
the Noble Lord sat dome, he was cheered for several
urinates by the Opposition). •
Mr. TIERNEY, upon the part of his Honourable,
Friends and the Country, thanked the Noble Lord I
opposite most sincerely, for the manner in which he
received the proposition of his Noble Friend—(Hear,l
hear).—He believed he might also presume,
on the
part of the House and the Country, to thank his
Noble Friend near him, for having brought the sub-
ject in qdestion under the consideration of the House
—(Hear, hear, hear).—He congratulated the House,
upon one result which was now obtained, that they
had an answer to give to the charge so often made
against it, that it refused to sanction any Reform,
whether it was grounded on a general system, or a
particular case—(Hear, hear).--After what had just
occurred, he did not wish to urge a single principle
which could excite the slightest hostility from
the other side of the House. No doubt them was
a general principle, which he was most anxious to I
see adopted ; but he would refrain from enforcing
it now—(Hear, hear).—Upon all questions of Parlia-
mentary Reform, he would be thankful for every
thing he could get. He did not deny that he wished
for mere than had yet been admitted. The Right
Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to recapitu-
late the concessions of the Noble Lord opposite, for
the sake of understanding them clearly, and ex-
pressed his wish, that if the question should arise,
whether the franchise to be taken away should be
given to a large county or populous town ? the latter
should be preferred. He hailed the proceeding of
this night as an omen of great good to the-country.
He could not, however, refrain-from saying; that the
principle for disposing of the franchise for which he
was contending, was already sanctioned by the Noble
Prd opposite at the time of the Union of Ireland.
If his Noble .Friend would follow his advice, he
would immediately close with the Noble Lord's ffer,
and -he was ,confident in the hope that the effect of it
would-be eminently useful to the country—(Hear).
Lord CASTLEREAGH would support the Bill,
but had, at the same time, stated his opinion, that it
could not apply to Cornwall. He was not bound by
any particular view of Parliamentary Reform, and
wished theory to be kept clear of.
Mr. W. WYNNE thought that the particular case
of Grampound should be before the House before
any general ground could be taken upon it.
Mgr. VALENTINE BLAKE was of opinion, that
the mode of returning Members for Counties stood
in need of no reform.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said, he
had to express his best thanks to the Noble Lord op-
posite, for the sentiments which he uttered-upon the
occasion, and to the House in general, for the man-
ner in which the discussion had been carried on. He
*was ready to acknowledge that the Noble Lord had
given him every assistance last Session, when he in-
troduced a Bill respecting, the Borough of Gram-
pound; but, on the present occasion, the Noble Lord
had indeed gone much further than he could have
previously expected. Under these circumstances, he
should be sorry to take up the time of the House by
any further observations. He understood the Noble
Lord to say, that be would not object to a Bill, the
principle of which was to disfranchise the Borough
of Grampound, and transfer the right of suffrage
to large towns—(Hear, hear).--Ple had only further
to observe, that after the Christmas Recess---.
[Mr. TIERNEY—You may a; well do it sooner—say
this week].—Lord JOHN KussELL—Then on Thurs-
day next he would move for leave to bring in a Bill
to disfranchise the Borough of Grampound, and
transfer the suffrage to some large populous town.
At present he would not say which was the particular
town he meant should be benefited by the Bill ; but
he would observe, that the choice was not to be de-
termined by the large extent of the population
merely—(Hear, hear,/..—The Noble Lord then with-
drew his Motion.
Lord MILTON laid he had one observation to
throw out for the.consideration of the Houser. which
he hoped would meet with serious' attention. He
wished that a rule might be made, which *odd con-
fer upon places that were once in possession of the
elective franchise, but whose power was obsolete, a
sort of preference to the benefits of any such alteration
as the proposed one in Gramionnd, that might be
made in future. .
Lord CASTLEREAGH-id:bed he might be un-
derstood as not at all pledging himself; by consent-
ing to this Bill, to lay down a universal principle
which was to apply to all'the Boronghs in Cornwall,
He was governed in his decision relative to the Bo-
rough. of Grampound, merely by taking into consi-
deration the merits of the case—(Hear, kern).
EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR IN IRELAND.
Me. Alderman WOOD moved for leave tobring in a Bill for
the Encouragement of the Fisheries, Truk, and Manufactures
of India:by regulating Partnership Companies in that part of
tbe •
Mr. FOSTER odd, the BM did not contain a word about
the Fisheries and blinufactures of Ireland; but it west to alter
the law that bad been long established by numerous decisions
the Irish Courts, which would be attended' with much incon-
venience, and therefore hoped the worthy -Alderman would al-
low things to remain as they were.
Mr. PLUNKirI-Poiuerved that ilte Bill w•ent to sweep away
a great body of laws, that had been long established in Ireland,
sad were mill known to the commercial world, and to intro-
duce new laws in their room. • , • -
Alderman WOOD had no private objeekto gain by the. Bill
he wished to introduce • and if the Irish Members chose to set
themselves against it, he was very willing to withdraw it. By
the law, as it then stood, an anonymous partner, as be was
called, ilfight. by simply looking at the bOoks, become liable to
the whole of his fortune; and he had known of. one who had
become so liable to the amount of £50,000.
Lord JOCELY N should support any measure that had for its
object to imaisfer tit- Ireland part of the capital of England.—
Leave wee given to bring in the Bill.
SEIZURE ON ARMS.
Lord CASTLEREAGH moved-the Order of the
, Day fokthe.House going into a Committee on the
Seizure of Arms Bill.
Mr.LAMBTON re-stated what lie had mentioned
on a former evening, relative to the tranquillity of
the County of Durham. Every thing was quiet
among the colliers; and an extraordinary statement
that bad appeared in a Ministerial Newspaper, bad
been contradicted by the Magistrates. Ho should
.move an instruction to the Committee,' that the Bill
should not extend to the County of Durham, though
he should not take the sense of the Hanson the sub-
ject, being aware of the result.
Mr. POWLET stated, that at a numerous Meet-

IMI

ling of the Magistrates of the County, held 1
barn, they had come to the resolution, that it
necessary the Yeomanry should be kept on 1.
mint duty. The motion was then negatived.
Mr. BIRCH moved that the County of Nn.,;
ham should be exempted froin the o2et.a ion of.
Bill. Out of 10,000 persons in that County.
a
wards of 3000 were idle,.
Lord 11.ANCLIFFE stated the County of .N,Nti;
ham to be in a state of perfect tranquillity, t'
in one parish 1000 persons Were out of employnli
The House and the Noble Lord ought to tecos
what had been the effect of similar laws in hely
For himself he should say, that s!iould any at.q
be made to enter his house in the night. he ,
feel it to be his duty and his right to resist sue4i
intrusian by force.

Mr. DgNMAN spoke to the tranquillity bet':l
the Town and County of Nottingham.
Mr. R. MARTIN observed, that the Bill rl
affect no poor man that had arms, for a lawful
post. Had the Bill been for the preserrat:-z
game, no objection would have been mare tot
Clause—(Hear, hear, and a laugh).
The Ntotion of Mr. Luca was then negatil
without a division.

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Mr. PROTHEROE stated, that not only f
actual documents before the House,. but Guns act
information, he was aware that 'thee was a wi..
spread conspiracy against the Constitution, and
the People had been worked on by artful men,
wished to raise themselves on the ruinsof the ' ,
tution, and whose attempts it Was the duty of .
friend to his Country to repel.
Sir GEORGE ANSON trusted he need not
that he vievre 1, with the deepest regret, the cir .
stances which had rendered necessary the early
sembling of Parliament ; and the advantage w ;.
had been taken by some persons in the districts
which the existing discontent was chiefly confined,
increase the fernieat, and to foster the spirit of '
affection for their own purposes. He would not
vent to the proceedings of the 16th of Au,ttist, but
could not resist the opportunity of expressing his
prise and regret at the conduct of that House in
fusing to institute an inquiry into the transactions
a day which would for ever be recorded in hi .
as one on which the blood of his Majesty subj.,
had been wantonly and uselessly shed. Althnuo
he allowed that there was cause for alarm, I.e
pressed his conviction that that cause had been great;
exaggerated, for the purpose of obtaining the or
curreace of Parliament in measures hostile to
freedom, and repugnant to the feelings of Engli
men. The principle on which the Bill before
House proceeded was so totally at variance with
spirit of our free and enlightened Constitutio
contrary to the liberty, and so destructive of
right of Englishmen—a right hitherto always
knowledged—to retain arms for the defence of the.
selves, their families, and their property—that
could not but wonder at the introduction of so •
trary and oppressive a proposition. It he exam; •
the grounds of such a proposition, lie must say,
the evidence on the table of the House of Com.,
by no means justified so violent a proceeding
great an infringement of the rights of the People.
many places there was no disaffection—nu tii:nr
_ ance. The House had that night heard All far.
able able Member for the County of ourharn, and tf
Honourabie Members for Nottinghamshire,
on the part of their Constituents, any necessity
such a measure. The same had been done on arm
riser night by an Honourabie Member fur North2'
berland. Why was the imputation •.vhich the
coreyed to be thus thrown on the ? V; •
it just that all should be thus indiscriminately brae
with sedition ? Because there was a singiemandic
turing town in a county, and that t 0.% n haofveil to
be in distress, was it fitting that the wh,le counq
should be subjected to the operation of such a law.
It was a law founded on a principle which no nun
had ever before dared to assert—a principle from
which every lover pf freedom turned with horror and
disgust.. He was persuaded that the present and the
other measures twhich he regarded with equal ink-
nation) were only- parts of that system of attack nu
the liberty of the People which had long been unit'
mittingly pursued. Those who voted for such ma-
. sures supported not the Constitution, but the Mini-
sters ; men who, he had long been persuaded, wisliti
to invest themselves' with such arbitrary power a
might render them independent of the wishes of the
People,. as he .believed they already were of the
wishes of that 'House.- Instead of evincing every dis•
position to relieve the distresses of the suff;riq
classes of the community, the only measures in'
posed were the deprivation of the right of meeting
to petition for the redress of grievances, the deprier
tion of the right of keeping arms, and other dead:•
blows to the Constittition. He firmly believed, that
had it not been for the events of the 16th of Asps;
the People would have continued to bear their die
tresses with fortitude. The measures now ream;
mended to the LEgslatnre were, is his opinion, :L.
culated to exacerbate itistead of abate the evil. 5
he was wrong in that opinion, he declared that no-
thing could give him greater pleasure than to €2,1
his error—( r, hear, hear).
The House than went into the Committee ; and 03
the first chase being read,
Mr. BENNET Said, that he looked upon the pn"
session of ,arins as being the strongest proof of the
difference between a freeman and a slave. fie cb-
jected to the notion that arms were allowed to EnE,-
lishinert to defend theifproperty only; but to defend
their birthright. He still more strongly objected t 3
giving a "single Magistrate the power of searching
for arms, upon information given on oath before him;
and he thought he was justified in making that 01`'
jection, when they saw how certain Magistrates hzi
issued their death warrants. Ile resisted this mea-
sure, because it must be carried only by force
arms, and because he could conceive nothing so hor-
rible as subjecting the females of a family to the ne-
•cessary outrage and insult of midnight searches for
arms—(Hear, hear, hear). Nothing aroused the
hatred of this and other countries more than the do-
miciliary visits during the French Revolution ; and
what would be the difference between the dOmicili-
ary visits of that horrid eeriod, and those that would
take place under this Bill ?Hear). But.the Biil
would be rendered nugatory—for arms would be se-
creted, and *mild his liijorsq's Ministers inflict to:-
tote, in order to extort confession ? hear).
That would, probably, be the nest steep, is not the ne-

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c*. niece 'of the fnit. He adinitied' at
, time, that Mt Objestritnit to the racistte
be cansidtsably removed if: the porter of
idotmation and granting warrants were given
two Magistrates instead of one, and the search for
ns ,onfined to the day.—(Hear, hear, hear). He
:hided by moving an Amendment to that effect.
eASTLERLAGH.denieti that this Bill was
thin,: else than a measure of protection to the
as and property of those who could not protect
'selves by any arms they might possess. He
w have a very lame case, if he could not shew
ich measures had been frequently found neces-
lo 1811, a Bill of a much severer character
tie House without much discussion ; and that
Ire the power of searching to a single Magis-
•;c, or to call upon all those who had arms to de-
them up to him. Ile therefore contended, that
was a measure even more guarded than that of
(ion forbid that he should say that this was
a arm% and odious measure !—(Loud cries of
heart frost the Opposition side of the House)—
the temper of the times required it! --(Hear)—
re was a spirit abroad which represented this, and
r measures, as tyrannical and novel : It had been
that in the best periods of our hiStory there were
;h measures as these. Now, it so happened,
in the period between the Rebellions of 1715
1715, there were two such Bills passed ; and
more after the latter Rebellion, of a still
nature—Wear, hear). These Bills, passed
en after the Bill of Rights, were Whig measures,
e by men who must have well understood the
of Rights; and yet they thought the measures
had alluded to no infringement of that Bill!
,r).—The Act for disarming. the Highlanders
during the whole of the reigns of George the
a and Second. and made it so highly penal, that
- second offence of having arms in possession,
person so offending might be condemned to serve
berth America as a soldier— (Hear, hear, hear).
Peers, and sons of Peers, in Scotland, were then
rented from carrying arms, and he was very happy
aow they bad no occasion to resort to such harsh
ures. But he could not help again regretting
Honourable Gentlemen should forget the' ex-
les he had just cited, and represent these as odious
;es, for which the Government should be held
n the detestation of mankind. He did not argue
present measure as he had done the Seditious
,angs sill, as a measure consistent with the spirit
Constitution. He conceived, on the contrary,
it infringed on the rights of the subject—Wear,
-0. But he contended that Parliament had
power of suspending certain rights, in order to
•.ect others of still greater consequence. It was
;nly the right of the people of England to be.
' for the protection of their dwellings; but a
interference with that right might be rendered
try, as in the present instance. He should hi
at any time in acceding to the suggestions*.nt
lee rable Members from the other side of the How%
ill his conscience, he thought, that to adogt the
ttion now proposed would entirtitAifeat the
.racy of the measure. •
Mr. BROUGHAM thanked the Voble Lord for

in; from within--(Hear, hear) Di d any of t.
evils now threaten the Country;? Would it be sa.
that rebellion now existed?—(Hear, bear). 'Wei\
not the intended risings put off from day to day?
To be sure no little alarm had lately been excited trt.
the City,, by seeing chalked on the walls in large
characters—" Remember the 9th of December!"-
It was supposed'to be the day fixed for a general in
surrection. but it had at last turned out to mean-.-
" Remember the drawing of the richest Lottery on
the 9th of December, with eight prizes of £20,000,"
which, curiously enough, had also turned out to be
only four !—(General laughter). He then contended.'
that the measures adopted in 1715 had only hastened
and exasperated, instead of preventing the rebellion,
and that it was not the disarming Acts which had
ultimately pacified the Highlanders, hut a series of
conciliatory measures, the abolition of the heritable
jurisdictions, and especially the wise policy of Lord
Chatham, in throwing himself upon the People of that
Country—in going to the North for merit, and finding
lit there, where his predecessors only found rebellion.
He admitted that a case might arise to justify the
temporary suspension of certain lights, but it ought
to be done in the manner least calculated to affect or
abridge other rights. The Noble Lord acknow-
ledged the right of the subject to keep arms for the.
rotection of their dwellings; but it was not so that
' e (Mr. Brougham) had read the Constitution. An
nglishman's house was not only to be kept sacred
from police officers and robbers ; it was his castle, as
a higher sense of the word—(Hear, hear),—and hs
had arms in his defence, that he might turn thou
against the Rulers of the country, if they broke the
laws or violated the Constitution—(Hear, hear). If
he preached a. dangerous doctrine, it was not to the
country, but to its Rulers, and he preached it not on
his own authority, but on that of the venerable Judge
Blackstone, who said in express words, that arms
were in the hands Of the People for that purpose.—
He would follow up what he had said with an ad-
vice to the Communify, not even to talk against, far
less to resist, what their rulert got to be enacted by
the three branches of the Legislature. What was
done by Parliament could never constitutionally be
opposed, and he for one would resist, to the last drop
of his blood, if necessary, any encroachment upon '
their decisions, come from what quarter it might, as
vehemently and stedfastly as he would resist any en-
croachments of the Crown. These were safe doc-
-trines for Governments who ruled with wisdom, who
ruled alike for the protection of the People and the
Crown, and they were, above all, safe for Govern-
ments who made no efforts to violate the Public
Liberty—(Cries of Hear, hear, followed the close of
the Honourable Member's speech).
Mr. CANNING said, he should be most unwilling
to quote any expression of the Learned Gentleman s
beyond the meaning to which he had himself limited
it, and therefore he would admit the right of the
subject to arms for his own defence, and even for
resistance to an undue exercise of power in any ima-
ginablgt in any supposably case, not analogous to the-
present, qualified as the Learned Gentleman had
qualified his principlcu He was ready to admit this
dart-rine, and did not 94arrel with the principle ; but
what hefoudd fault with was the occasion, which no
man could say called for the declarations they had
just heard. He asked the Learned Gentleman If he
thought it possible that such opinions as he had deli-
vered could go forth at a time like the present, appli-
cable enough to a speculative theory, but totally in,
2pplicable to the case before them ; he would ask him
if he conceived it possible for such opinions to be
spread abroad; imagining the right of resYtance to
authority, and leaving the sufficient cause undefined,
without being productive of infinite evil ? Having
conceded all thatwas claimed by the Learned Gen-
tleman, it might be allowed him to state on the
other side, that however the right of the
_subject
to possess arms was acknowledged, it was no ge.
neral and abstract right, but one liable, like all
other rights, to be controuled by the governing
power, on spewing a sufficient cause for that pro-
ceeding. If they wanted any proof of this, he
would only refer therms to that immortal statute,
which had been so much quoted in the House
and out of it, on every discussion connected with the
measures proposed by Ministers ; but he knew not
haw it was never quoted correctly ; he would refer
them to the Bill of Rights, that great security of po-
pular liberties, which accorded arms to subjects ac-
cording to their condition. But there was one small
qualification in the Bill of Rights (not that he ap-
proved of it, but only adduced it in support of an ar-
gument), a qualification which declared, and he knew
not why a reference to it was always omitted, that—
" all subjects, being Protestants, should have the right
to be so armed," and excluding the Roman Catholics
from that right. Now what did he infer from this?
Not that it would be right to disarm the Roman Ca-
tholics, but that, like every other general right, the
right to keep arms, was subject to a qualification ;
that it had been subjected to a qualification in the
very first enactment relating to it, and a large body
of the People excluded by a clause which, if still in
operation, would most particularly affect those parts
towards which the present measure was directed ;
and which was done at the :era of so constitutional
an enactment, because the profession of the Raman
Catholic Religion- was thought to be a proof of dis-
affection.
And the same was the principle of this I
Bill, which presumed that the concealing and having'
arma, was a proof that the parties were disaffected._
He appealed, therefore, to the Bill of Rights, in the '
spirit of which they were legislating ; and, in the
name of thjr Whig ancestors, callid bn the Gentle-
meni ,
opposite to controul that privilege, and invade
a particular right, far the sake of the gene.ral peace
aiiil preservation of the country. He admitted that
it was necessary that a case should be made out to
justify this mcasute, and had thought that when the
Speaker left the Chair, and the Committee was
formed, the House had unanimously consented to the
adoption of the principle; that this species of danger
was not dhpttted. He had thought that their only
object was to examine the clauses of the Bill, and
'that as fur itsfoundation and necessity they were ad-
mitted by
.Gdinletnen who unanimously agreed to
the passing of the Training Bill. He had thought
that the same arguments which led to the adoption
of the one measure, secured asseut to the. principle,
or the Other.; and thal wheththe Mietrugs of dik,
,seditioas,br the dimiffeeted Mn," iviri to bee hif: 1
.
nand to fir
trouled or not, the military array, which was note;
rions ; the words of command to march

ing frankly admitted thai the present meas
a violation of the principles of the Coustitutiot.
is it was doubtful whether everyindiiraual in the
would be found to agree in the same opinion,
whether this very measure would not be pro-
claimed from a certain ultra quarter—(Hear, bear)
.be one of those improvements in the constitu-
tan of the Country, similar in value to the Bill for
,iossii the Tight of Meeting, and that for
ering the Press !—(Hear, hear, hear). Whether
salt sentiments would be expressed he could not take
spa Limself to say ; but the House had at least the
'fission of his Majesty's Government, the very au-
of the measure, that it was an infra'ction of the
tights of the People, and a violation of the Consti-
mon of the Land. On what grounds then did the
Noble Lord defend such a measure? He • bad re-
(curse to his arguments of last night,: and turning
round, exclaimed, " Did I not, five or six years ago,
pass a measure tea times worse ?"—(Laughter). Or,
" Why object to six Bills ? Do you think that if they
were not necessary, I should propose them ? I only
introduced two some years since. Why do you dis-
approve of the power given to ohe Justice of the
Peace ? By the Bill of 1812, a single Magistrate
vas authorised to break into houses and seize arms,
not on information upon oath, but on his own suspi-
cion."—But he would tell the Noble Lord, that his
tale of the House were not bound by that argument
--(Hear, hear). .They had resisted the measure of
1812, and it was only for those who had. supported
Lis Majesty's Goverment on that occasion, 'to feel
themselves chained on the present—(Hear,
The Noble Lord said, that the measure would be
Ipled if the proposed alterations were carried into
I.:t, because a warning would be given to the
Pe0,,,1e to secrete their arms. But here was a statue
tcry warning which the House were passing. Fer the
'meat the People should see that a measure had
• enacted, giving their neighbours the power of
Leaking into their houses and searching for arms„
culd it be believed that they would be such fools
as to leave them where they should be foupd
Wculd they pile them up in stars or crosses, as
in arsenals, where they would lie open to the do.
rniciliary visits of Magistrates ?—(Hear, hear.)--
if tho measure were not made to go beyond its prs.
lent provisior.s, no security would be afforded this
ene single stand of arms should be found in the
cf the disturbed districts. The Noble Lard
bki in fact answered objections started in encases
*lce; but that was paying a bad compliment to MI
Z,oble colleagues, particularly the Secretary for 04
110%.e Department, who had hitherto been consid
as ta.itiag the whole wisdom of the Cabinet, and wh6
Ecod in the other place, to answer for themselves to
tai' Protesters against this Bill. With all the gram-
van and English which those Noble colleagues of
t!e Noble Lord had lately .displayed, yet be would
not trust their defence to their tongues sad their
b
ut must come to this House to be their advoeite
:re Noble Lord had appealed to the rebellion
171,,, and to the measures passed in what he ter
tLe good old times of the Whigs. But those mea--
sures, however contrary they might be to the Consti-.
tution, were at least effective, whilst the present 10141
sot I kelp to prove so. But at what time were they
Payed ? When rebellion was stalking threogh the
14nd—when there was a• disputed Succession—when
"ar was menacing from without, and rebellion assist-

had
flea.

•

•

' • . _
• • •
NA fit foritter *glean. theft- •taMe, ecirveyed,, et ' tem* "eihtd—itt
leas 4 thd jai Of sit distint &gen to have aims and meth, theefete; to
"* tel
. _
to Use thencand therefore that they should have had paper—ii 'waist be .
no dispute but dpon the provision of the measure. men-Speefficifly statik
Indeed the Honourable Gentleman whO opened this such power Was granted
debate had acknowledged the danger by offering his forme; date, tilt it p'
vote provided two Justices were substituted for one, Whig Adminismatic
and the search limited to the day instead of extending which mote severe
throughout the night—(Hear,frotn the Opposition).— sed were not in.operstkal4.4
The Honourable Gentlemen who cheered this as if it They renewed them
were a mistake, surely wronged their Honourable visitation every sixth
Friend, for it might be presumed that he Would not' gotten on the steely'
have agreed to the Bill at all unless he had been con- were to be of the sal
vinced that a- ease of danger existed. There was 'no intent 'with their Septe.. _
artifice—and it was worth while to observe it—there that this was no argument for passing the Bill. but
was no artifice in debate more common than that one when cumulative charges were heaped upon Miei-
which had been practised by the Honourable ancrsters from the other side, an answer was necessary
Learned Gentleman opposite to-night. It consisted In for ev'ery accusation. But *hen they did answer in
attacking Government on two or three points, and if this way, they were accused, of travelling out of the
they answered one, they were replied upon that they record ; yet if precedents were not to be alleged On
had not answered the other; as if, when they refuted the 'one side, unptecedentedness should not be
one of the arguments against them, without intending urged ea the other. When this was done, lei the •
by the same reasoning to overturn any other, they House look ai the Whig measures, and at • this. Bill I
were to be held' bound to have failed in refuting the Those were Unlimited ; this confined to the space of
whole. There was an example of this sort before two years. By'ail those, any Magisuate was em-
them. This Bill is highly unconstitutional, said one; positive' to act on his own responsibility without an
it is unprecedented, said another. His Noble Frieod oath -.this required the oath of a competent person.
answered the latter allegation by shewing that so'fer In thosei of the Whig Legislators, there was no right
from being unprecedented, there was a precedent in -of appeal ; in this, there was an appeal to the Qear-
a late Parliament, and many precedents in times to, ter Sessiops. In these, an obstruction by five per-
which his antagonists would refer if they wanted ex- sons authorised the calling in of the military force,
simpler), men or measures to support them. But then and, in case death ensued, the parties were exone-
it was immediately said, that precedents were nothing, rated ; in this there was no such provision. In those,
that this was no reply to the charge of being unconsti- ' fine, imprisonment, and transportation, were awarded s
tutional, which this measure was, though not of that in this, the offence was treated as a misdemeanour
towering severity which characterised its Whig pre- only. Here then, was no proof of that wish, so un-
decessors. To this he again replied, that the argu- foundedly imputecrto Ministers, to invade the Con-
ment was good, as an answer to the charge of want stitution—to go farther in their enactments than the
of precedent, and that his Noble Friend had never necessity of the case required—or to manifest a dis-
meant it to apply to any other. objection:— regard of the popular rights. Hee trusted that the
Indeed his Noble Friend had not pushed it as far as comparison he had drawn would answer the taunt, so
it might be urged. The Learned Gentleman (Mr. ill deserved, of unprecedented severity--that the Gen-
Brougham) had accused him of addressing himself tlemen opposite would no longer accuse them of ne-
to what was called a Protest in another place, and electing any mitigation in favour of the liberty and
told them that this was blameable, since that paper rights of the subject. They could not surely say,
might have been met on the spot by a Counter-pro- that Ministers had forgotten the .principles of the
test. Fur his part, he had never heard'of this latter Constitution, or had not displayed Jess of hardship
document; but as the Learned Gentleman had men- than their Whigancestors, when they found it neces-
dosed it, there might be such a thing, or it ought to nary to limit aright for the sake of the whole cora.-
be invented (but then there would be no precedent)— munity.—(Loud cheering).
(A laugh)—though, perhaps, it was better for that Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation, said, he never
High Assembly not to have a war of quills after a made use of two different phrases attributed to him
war of words. This Paper, however, which . was by the Right Honourable Gentleman. He never
given to the Public as a Protest, must be an impu• said the proposed measures of his Majesty's Govern-
dent fabrication. It asserted that some of the wisest meat Were unprecedented, nor did he ever say, what
and noblest names in the Country were signed to an signified precedents? Nor did he ever talk of the =-
assertion of themost absurd nature. The names of Earls qualified right of the subject' to bear arms, if an
Grey, Thane, and others, were placed in mockery to actual necessity for restricting that right could be
this precious Paper, which he would treat in the fairly proved—(Hear).
light it appeared to him, as one of the inventions to Mr. CANNING observed, lie did all he could to
libel those great names, so common in the present state the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's argu-
times. It advanced the following monstrous pro- meats as fairly as he could, nor did he make use of
I.o:salons, to prove that the Bill Was objectionable:— that advantage as to some of them which he might
" Because,in former periods of much greater danger have very fairly done.
to the Crown and Constitution of these Realms— Mr. BROUGHAM tl:anked the night Honourable
II when conspiracies by the adherents of the House of Gentleman for his courtesy. H,s very sensibly felt
Stuart were known. to be directed against both— that he should not now have had an opportunity of
Mien preparatioris. were making for rebellion, with making this explanation to the Eight Honourable
idle assistance of -France—then men of the highest Gentleman, had he not been so civil. Ali the neigh-
['rank, station, and influence in both Kingdoms, were bourhood of St. John's and St. Margaret's would
deeply engaged in these designs: nay, during two have been echoing to those praises rung in his ears
Ifisemidable rebellions, in .1715 and 1745, no such from the Honourable Gentlemen around him, if he
power' was granted to the Crown ; yet the new line (Mr. Canning) had made that exhibition from which
,of succession was defended, and our free Constitu- he had so obligingly abstained.
don successfully maintained against all these dangers. Mr. TIERNEY said, the whole wrath of the Right
IThe principles of the Revolution had been too firmly Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had been excited
Imprinted in the hearts and minds ,of our ancestors, against the Whigs, as if he could not rest satisfied
Ito allow them, on the spur of any emergency, how- without making thei present a party. question. His
lever alarming, to hazard the existence of a right wrath—iNo, no!)—ewell then the whole of the Right
k which they had so recently asserted."—It was 101- Hon. Crentleman's speech, was intended to throw a
possible but that this was a surreptitious Paper, con: certain degree of slur on every Gentleman at his side
trived for the purpose 'of brining the wise men, of the House; but that was nothing very new. The
whose signatures it purported to bear, into contempt; whole burthen of his speech was " Whig ! Pi'hig I
for it could not be supposed that they had read Whig r-and from day to day, and night to night,
Snoolides Coatinuation, and it was little short of he was'never comfortable without saying that the
etwodalson issageatinn to ascribe such ignorance to country never could be, nor ever was, well governed
persons of their station. But however the Paper (for by the Whigs ;in short, that they Were always doing
he must not call it Protest) came to be manufactured, harm to the People I He thought, however, as the
it had led him to look a little into the history of the Government copied all their mischiefs; and adopted
period embraced, of that period when the principles all the bad precedents, that they should now copy
of the Revolution were too firmly imprinted to per- some of their good ones. An Honourable Member
mit the right of arms to be hazarded. He there found, under the Gallery had very properly said, that con-
in 1715, that they issued a Statute, and it was thus the ciliation, and not party, would be the best way of
Whigs expounded their principles in the Preamble. coming to a sight understanding with the country ;
Listen to the more moderate Whigs of these times— and if ever such a course should be pursued, it ought to
Vert the Right Han. Gentkman read-the Preamble to be on this occasion. It was not adopted, and he could
am Ad for disarming the Highlaaders, which dated, not help it, however much and siucerely he regretted it.
Met a custom had long prevailed of having area, When the Bill.before them was brought in, he said,
Eat carrying .them when abroad in tie fields, tsc.j— if a sufficient case were made out, he should not ob-
And what were the penalties in this Act? . The con- ject to the enactment of measures calculated to ob-,
viction might, take place before one Justice, and im- viate the dangers of the times, but, he added, that he
prisonment, and floes increasing from £4O upwards, would certainly oppose granting such powers to one
in failure of the payment of which, transportation for Magistrate, and against all search for arms by night
seven years, were the punishments awarded: Would —besides that, he further observed, they had still
apy one compare this first offspring of the Bill of two stages left at which they might oppose the prirs-
Rights with the present measure? Nor was it after- ciple of aheßill. He never said he had abandoned
wards mitigated by its Whig parents, during the the principle of the subject's right to the possession
whole time they were in power.. By the Statute of of arms, he still maintained that valuable principle,.
George the Second, in the year 1726, arm-holders, in and maintained it much more broadly than his Ho-
disobedience of the Act, were condemned to serve nourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham). Ace
the King beyond the was in his Majesty's North cording to the spirit of the Constitution, a British
American Colonies: and he would never see
and even the owners of premises subject possessed that tight,
on which they might be foundavere to be deemed it invaded, without lifting his voice against it
concealers, and subject to fine, imprisonment, and When that exception in the Bill of Rights was made,
'transportation. And it would shock the sensibility to which the Right Ifts..Gentleman alluded, a Xing
of some of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite still who favoured Cathads was sent off, but all the new
more, to learnA that women were to be punished by subjects—all the Piotestant subjects, were alloyed
im?risourninit for two, years, and.by a fine of £1 00. their full and free possession; nor were they to give
This wet, the, softened Whig measure. By the 19th ep that right to any human being. He stood by the-Bill
of George the Second, still heavier penalties were in- of Rights as much as that Right Hon. Gentleman,
Sicced, and every seven years the measure was re- He (Mr. Canning) seemed. to have-been very fortu..
nesied previous to its expiring." In 1755,. it was re- nate in picking up the paper from which he read an
newed again, though. uncalled for by auy circum- extract, but slot being able to conjure up an argus
stance, in that year of isend peace; and in 1769, went in that House, he and his colleagues soden-
the last of Gwrp the Second, it was re-enacted, for toured to find out something that 'mete-Seel in into'
the last time, when. thetebellions of 1715 and 1745 Hier place, which might serve them in their distress
had pretty well faded away. TWo year after the (Hear, hear). The reading of this paper could only
era so dwelt upon by the Learned Gentlemen--two have been intended to throw something like.disosest
yeirs after Lord Chatham was calling down the into the debate; for his Honourable Friend (IdNilea.
Highland population as soldiers, to defend their net) distinctly said, in the opening of the discessioo;
-Southern brethren-r-he was still disarming them, and that although objecdng to the principle of thwnseas
with a preamble declaring—" Whereasall the former sure, if two Magistrates were substituted" for one, and
Actshad beenfound useful and beneficial!"—(fieer), the search by night ;leen he secesie :nee times
were-the AttS *ltch he 'Fed described, an the 'House by proposing his Amendment. But, no,
the last was the lest act of n Whig Administration, said the Right Honourable Gentleman and his eel-.
who then went out of goventancuts and there had leagues, we want a little party—some seasoning for

-

c3tieltell
same time, th
be maids
g inW[l
ra 260 r
tiro b
; confined to
vdtKled by mov
Li.deASTLE
thins else tha
;es and propert:
,saves by an
;41d have a vet:
, such measure
lo 181'2, a
the [louse
Fare the pov
„•,e, or to call
ul
them up to 1
Vas a measur
Goo forbi
a stronE, ani
hear! from
the temper o
„etc n as a spin
e measui es, a
, tliat in the
~ such mcasurii
in the peric
• c 1715, there
, more afte
conger nature—
scot after the
Bade by men
of Rights ;
had alluded
Yor).—The A
luring thi
Fnt and Seconc
the second cr
per.on so off
North Amerie
.tea Peers, and
t rented from c
t now they b.
asures. But
; oatllonourabl
, ...pies he had jt
I/sires, for u
rat to the detest
tie present me
lee.ings Bill, s
:the Constitut
it infringe<
for, hear). 13i
't power of st
t ;meta others
,ttainly the ri,
for the
• tial inteifer
essary, as i
• py at any t
r, :.anourable Mi
n ;, in his con
iteration nov
O tiiency of th
Mr. BLtOU
nring frank]
tr at; a violatio
Ito. it was doi
t licy.se would
t• atl whether
claimed from
—to he one c
im of the Cc
•
UM%
V riming the
d- such senti men
Fa :pea i m sel f
admission of 1
ion of the n
Eights of the
ton of the I
O Noble Lord
(Curse to his
th round, exckcii
li pass a TlleitSUl
o ' Why object
were not nec4
le • introduced tv
in' approve of
h• Pace ? By
was authoris
not on irforr
ty Oon.”—But
di tile of the H
--(Hear, hei
1812, and i
,in: Lis ',Majesty's
iv- themselves
ith The Noble I
:h crippled if tl
us• iffe.t, becai
di Peo;,le to se
orn tcry warnin!
ea'• moment the
been enactet
n bceaking in!
En cult: it be
at to leave
I o Weuld the
in arsenals,
P°- ancillary v
th If the niea
e• tent pruvisi
;ng
single
rift. I. hole cf t
. .

,
IntE—AfirOi*, AeOrk.ia. ,vt!,, %;°'9
•;': trla 12i! _ _
o' fee such natneelliinea tn..iticia, a -
.oinuats, for it 'cob d niif.litk the
itatiaig, that in 1715 and:1744,1m
anted to the Crown. For fsottilbe
it pleased GOD to put an. ent4 to
tion, there was not a mo,..nt
enactments than that now pitl49-
t•ttion,—(A Igagk, and cria vt. It
magainst those undeserving tt
tb year; so that they were Sot. t-
te-book, and if all their rinnistues
same cast, they made them coe.x-
ieptennial Parliaments. Be knew