Star.
London, England, 1817-05-13 00:00:00

ARMY ESTIMATES.

The. House having ordered the. the Army Est%
mate: should be referred to the Committee of sq,
ply, and the House having resolved it►elf into t!:4:
Committee—

Lord PALMERSTON said, that in rising tr.
call upon the House to vote the Supplies for 0,..
Army tor the :. hole of the year, lie did 14 feel hie .
seif bound to follow the arrangement which had bee
hitherto usual ii. de,cribing the different classes -;
fe.rce which it was propos d to maintain. He shi •.:'u
therelote (thinkh.g it tie most consonant and penpi.
eirous mode) div: le tee whole of the Establir! seer;
for which he now intruded to call upon the Heuse so
provide, into four classes. Under the first class, f.e
included the whole active military force emplered
within'the kingdom, that was to say, the Regimen.;
of the Line, the Staff, the Volunteers and Ye.anantr,
andilm Public Offices. Under the second elm, lie
included, the active force employed out of the kini:.
dom, including the troops in France and in Lodi:.—
T(4 third class comprehended that description she
were remunerated for past serviess, such as the half.
pay, Chelsea pensioaera. &c. The fourth ages ass
composed of that part of the establishment which it
was intended to reduce in the course of the preser.
year, but for which some supply would be required
as the reduction was not yet completed. The labours
of the Finance Committee made it unnecessary for
him tee trespess at ch length on the time of the
House as he might ot cruise have felt himself bound
111
to do. Tne genera( and comprehensive statement es
the Second Report of that Committee would enatile
Gentlemen to satisfy themselves on rnmy peinte...
To the compaeative statement in the twenty-inh
and twCnty-seviintli pages of that Rerun he particu-
larly referred. It would there be seen that en the
total amount of force for this year, as compares: veli
that for the preceding year, there was a dimiese:.,a
of £1,738,000. But in that statement Wei inc;ezaat
the disembodied Militia, which he did not tat-.e ista
account in what he had now to submit to the Com-
mittee. There would therefore, by making an allow-
ance for this, be on the tshole force of this year, as
compared With the last, amounting in round number;
to 61,800,000. By referring to the 23d page of it::
same Report, it would be found, taking the more
narrow view, and taking only that part I the army
which was an actual charge on the revenue of the
country, that there was a diminution in tie numbs-
of men for the service of this year, as compared with
the preceding, of 35,000 rank and file, or (including
Officers) 40,000. In addition to this, however, le.:
'had to state to the Committee, that orders had been
recently sent to the Mediterranean for the r.tiirii of
the.2d battalion of the 14th Regiment, which was to
be reduced as soon as it reached this country.—
Taking the reduction of that battalion into
ACIOIII4
there would be a reduction on this branch el the
force of 36,000 rank and file, or 42,000, incledrry
officer" and men, compared with the numbers o: Lot
year. If the aggregate of the Military establistitecit
'(including the torso in France) was taken, aca
allowance was made for the 2d battalion of the 14es
Regiment of Foot, now on their way home to be tt-
•duced, there was, on the whole, a reduction ei
53,000 rank and file, or 81,000 officers and !tic-,
from the amount of the force last year. By this ee
Auction in the•number of men there would be a o-
duction in the. amount of the supplies for this year
the extent of £1,800,000. Whether the exte:it s.it t'::
reduction would give satisfaction to all, re we'!.l
not venture to say ; but at least he was sure !Ler e;
a majority of the House it' would appear satilarznry.
At least it slimed, that in the interval between ti.:
last Session of Parliament and the present, hi: MA
jesty's Ministers had not been inattentive to the e...-
ierings of the nation, but had lent all their efforts to
make each eedtictions in the military tetabliJanert
is would. Materially reduce • the public expeialiture,
and thus, not only south the feelings, but alio:one
the distresses.of the people. Reductions such AS (10::.
which he had mentioned could, not he ea,ily ei
qaickly made. .It was..siot,a glance of the eye, or a
'strak'wtrt thepen,..thaewae eufficient to effect their.
When tbe'nature. and extent of our military eoshlis!•
meats was uonsidefed ; when it was remembered tli,,t
they were snataired through our Settlehrents in essre
quarter of the world, it would be allowed that it
required the moat laborious and patient esamioation
on the pan of his Majesty's Government to oviblf
them to submit to the House the reductions which t;''
bad mentioned. It would be seen by referring to t!'.-
(.15th page cif the Second Report of the FM vice Cm:'
mittee, to what extent the military force ef the Cue...•
try had been reduced within the last two years e. 2 e
half. At the end of lEI4 (wiiic:r was the tari:.et
time at which the work of reduction could have Leen
commenced) the amount of the whole military force
of the country was 2'28,5% Men. Last year the
amount of the forceicept up was 99,000 men fir the
general service, including the Colonies, 30,000 for
our army in France, and 20,000 for great Britain
and Ireland. For the present year the amount woo•d
be as follows, viz.-80,000 men for the genetell.-!"
vice, including the Colonies ; 20,3 qt; ti,r die army to
France, and 17,360 for Great Britain and kel nth--
It would be baldly necessary for him to recapitulate
the different stations-. on which these Were emplint4
—With respect to the details of else reds sou, the

following were the *aft prominent statements :
The Guard' h'sd not this year been exempted from
searing their share In the reductiOn ; for from each
cclerFany in the Guards thele had been a reduction
,st one terjesnt and ten men. The total number
of :Ilea reduced from the Regimenti of the Line in
we last year were taken at eighteen thousand.—
'l% e evens... of the recruitak depirtment for this
• wire iakenot £130,000 kiss than they were last
fear. In the Staff great reductions had also been
laa.4e. In this department two hunched and 'fifty-
fficers vole reduced. The vatic depart-
inclas and offices were those in which the least- re-
es had been mole, and it was easy to explain
ed.) Owl- were the branches of the public service in
reduction at this time was least practicable.
• whole amount of the reductions in the public
o,ices was between 419,000 and £20,000. When
t!:e nature of these offices was considered—when it
vas canAdered that the very process of reduction for
t.e time increased the amount of business in these de-
--ments it would be admitted that these were not
t!.e apartments is which Vie:greatest reductions
could be expected. is the Office of the Commander
j;, Chief particularly there was a source of business
a'aich perhaps Could not be considered as likely to
b: permanent; but yet which for the time was occd.
pored by the process of reduction. Many Officers
our service being placed noise half pay, feeling
their capacity for the public service, naturally came
;cresol and submitted their claims to be employed
to the Cemosapcler in Chief. He Was sure the House
wouldsvin,patfiise in the situation of these persons...-
Cl/tar, hear, hear.) And he was also sore that the
Haag would not.carry the reductions so far as even
to deprive the Commander in Chief of attending to
such claims, and giving the claimants at least• the
poor satisfaction of knowing that their claims were
sot mated with neglect. The Committee would see
by the statement in the Report of the Committee of
linaw.e, that considerable reductions were made in
Lis (Lord Palmerston's) department. tut as to that
branch of the department in whit!' the cdrrespon.
donee was conducted there could not be any reduc-
tion at all. The number of letters of authority and
of warrants inserted in the books of the Office affor-
sad the best criterion as to this. Intihe year ending
the 17th of March, 1791, 'the number of letters in
las department was 7004 s in the year ending in
March, 1800, the number wan; 14,703; in the year
ending in March, 1816, it was 92,320; id the year
ending March, 4817, the number had increased to
1045,304.. So far, therefore, as reduction could be'
funded on the diminution of business, it would be
allowed, that at least in this department the reduc.
tiun could not yet be made. The number of clerks
in the War Office bad also been considerably redu-
ced. Among others, he stated that the number of
clerks of the highest class bad hecn reduced from six
to ism A similar reduction was made in the se-•
bond class. The chief inspector of the foreign branch,
ate had a salary of 5e1,095 a year, was also reduced.
Several clerks in Mini* departments had been re-
duced, and, betides, several vacancies occurring,
from death or resignation, had not been filled up.—
On the whole of this, departritent, compared with last
rear, ahere, was a re4ction in the expense to the
amount of £5,921,00y. In the Adjutant-General's
tkparinient there was a reduction to the extent of
44000. In• the Qaarter knot! General's Depart.
mint, 111736. lit.the Departniedt.of the Coninais-
sary General of Musters,. i1i1716., In the Volunteers
there was ti reduction to the anti:Amt. of 43407. In
the Military College' there was a redaction of 51i5.564.
As to this itein, he was bound to .notice the very
Eatehome eonduCt of the GoSernor of that College,
(Major-General the Honourable Alexander Hope)
who, when called upon to state what reductions
could be made in that department, began by .draw-
lug his pen through £SOO a year,. the allowance of •
his own table. This certainly was only such conduct •
9 was to be expected by thcise who knew the cha-
racter of the gallant officer. In the sum for pay of
General Officers, there was a diminution of 43620,
which arose from the casualties during "the year.—
Since 1814, 'when the arrangement now acted upon
with respect to the pay of General Officers was in.
troduced, fifty-four
_Genetal Officers had died. It
i.as intended, pursuant to the Report of the Com-
mittee of Finance, to alter the arrangement by which
there were noir three rates of pay fur General Offs.-
cers, by assimilating rite pay of Generals and Untie.
amt. Generals, instead of having, as now, one rate
ter blajor.Generals, one fOr Lieutenanc.Uenerals,
and a third fer Generals. It was intended for the
faterethA Olken promoted to the rank of Gene-
rals should nut receive the unallotted pay till the
4hole number of General Offioers was reduced to
i2o"vhich was intended to be the number to which
z.helierinaneat estakahment would be limited. In
the estimates for the present year, those for the dif.
ferent garrisons were separated from the Staff. un-
der the vecond of the four classes into which be had
divided the military establishmeots, namely, that
which included the half-pay and pensions, there was
maltreats in the present year to the amount of
1958.00(); the obvious cause of which was the reduce
tints which had taken place. In the third class there
was a seduction_ot. 5e238.000. In consequence of
tae Report of the CoMmittee of Finance. a new sr-
:clement was proposed with respect to-pensions and
allowances to wounded officers. He would take
leave to say, that he did not entirely approve of a
arrangemeij. According to that now acted
Von, the ainount of the pension increased with the
•ank of the officer. . What was now intended was
.-hat all officers for the future should receive the pen-'
nun only for the rank which they held ar the 'tithe
"ley received the wound. There had been an in.
gedke its the allewances for superannuations in Ex.
'liequr fees. There was a diminution in the pre-
terit year to the extent a 492,000. The 'MTh Bar.
racks and the Irish Comnaisiariat were not inCluded
'p the Estimates for the present year. On a general
vow of the amount of the whole Estimate", there
vas 4 diminution of 41,800,000,, as tombiliell with
%elan year. The total amount of 'the Esiiiiiines
the present year was 16,682,0q0. From this,
h"'nete was to be deducted the redactions which
were now in progress and would be contplitied in the
cootie of the year, and the amount would then be
itt!cass
MOO. But of this sum *gain it was to be ton.
stied that a great part was required for the third
:144, which included the remuneration of past' ler-,
IN which amounted to about 0,591,000, leasing'
th total amount of the Estimates for the active set-

vices of tle'rewot
year, iirs.7a4,ooo for the firit
class. In 1703, the amount of the Estimates for ac•
tive service was 23.059,000, an 1 in 1791, after seve-
, r.,1 years ..1 l rotound peace, it was 5e1,626,000.
Whn it Was tonsideted that th • amount of the fol.
;hers' pay was doubled since 1791, and that the Co-
.onies and p, tsessi ins of the kingdom were now so
much more extensive than they then were, it would
not be wondered that the Estimates of this year were
now only about 8500,000, more than double what
they were in 1791.
The Noble Lord concluded by
moving the Ft st Resolution. "That a number Warren,
not exceeding 121,035, for land form s, be voted for
the service of hit Majesty in the present year."
Mr. CALCRAFT thought the force proposed
much too large for the circumstances of the country.
With respect to the Report of the Finante Committee,
as he did not become a Member of that Committee
until after the Second Report was drawn up, he did
not hold himselt responsible for any part of that Re-
port; end, he could not help observing, as to that
Report, that it was very extraordinary that establish.
ments shou'd be voted, or their amount determined,
before the statement of the probable income of the
year was laid before the House. In 1792. all the
services now to be performed, were performed by
40,000 less than the nureber now required, excluding
the force in France. He did not mean to say that
the establishment of 179 was capable of perforining
the services now required. But Ministers were at
least bound to thew the reason for so prodigious an
increase. With respect to the Colonies, he could not ,
help observing with satisfaction, that the numbers
Wiled completely with those he himself had pro- "
posed as sufficient last year; though he was then
told that no reduction could be made. In more than,
five or six instances the present numbers tallied
with what he had then proposed, so that Minis-
ters had adopted the opinions of himself and his
friends ; but, on this occasion, he must say, they were
a full year in atrear of their duty, as they ought to
have made those very deductions a year ago. Nu
doubt next year they would find, that what they think
impossible now can be done then. For the consider
able reductions that had already beets made, the
country was, in his opinion, indebted to the firmness
of the House in refusing the Income Tax and the
Malt Tax. and also to the debates on the Army
Establishment. it it had not been for the discussions
that had taken place, though apparently disregarded
at the time, be was convinced that we' should not
have seen the reduced establiehments of the present.
day, but which, as taken altogether at 140,000 men,
lee still thought too high. The Gentlemen opposite
ought to explain why this force is necessary. There
were 17,000 Yeomanry Cavalry in addition to this
large force, merely for the service of Great lititaiii.,
In 1.792 a force of 12,000 men was found amply
sufficient. How came it that the country *as in so
different a State now as to require such an addition ?
It was knOin that the grievances of the people atone
very much frem the burdens of taxation; and it this
amount of force was to be kept up. it must be seen
that at would be impossible to diminish these burdens.
Now, if Gentlemen thought that a large military
establishment was better than to relieve the public
front their burdens, he must beg leave to say that he
totally differed from them. Delieving, -however, that
still farther reductions were in progress. be should
nor go into inioute details at present ; but there were
one or two topics which he could not help touching on.
The first was, the subjein of foreign 11.4101. Many
foreign officera.who received halt-pay were now in
Hanover on full pay and in actual service. He
hought this a most improvident regulation, and one
•which aught to be corrected. Another topic was the
half-pay officers reduced before the 24th June, 1914.
Their case was extremely hard, as being•limited to
the old rates of half-pay; and thus a partiality or ,
•preference was shewn to foreign officers • who had,
.served in our army. It did nut appear to him that
the reductions had been sufficiently extensive in the
public departments connected with the- army. He
did not think that of the Commander in Chid likely
to be sufficiently reduced f.bot he 'would press upon •
Ministers the necessity of reducing that, and every
other department. to the lowest possible rate that is
at all compatible with the business they have to
transact. It he saw any chance of being supported,
he should move for a considerable reduction to be
made m the present established force, as being too
large for the circbmstancesot the cranny. He hoped
the Noble Lord would yet give some explanation of
the necessity of maintaining so large a force.
Mr. LYTTLETON could not retrain from calling
the attention of the Committee to the half-pay of our
Officers both of the Army and Navy ; though he
should only indirectly touch on the latter, as not cen-
fleeted with the subject under consideration. The
case of the officers in both services was this: When;
they receive their balf-pay. they are obliged to make
an 'affidavit that they do not receive any other enio;.
lument under the Crown. This might have been a
good regulation formerly ; but tit present he did not
see any reason to induce Government, whether from
economy, or any other circumstance, to adhere to it
now. The Noble Lord had admitted, that reductions.
•in the Army caused great distress;• and this was the
time, of all others, when officers were suffering the
greatest degree of distress, owing to the extreme
pressure of taxation, and the increase of the number
of these persons. The Jicineuritble Gentleman spoke
in behalf Of those meritorious Gentlemen, whose
half pi Was not merely a bare remuneration for
their past, but a boon for tbeit future services ; under
these grounds,be argued for the policy of their obtain-
: ing the Mearisof igenteel siabsisience by being allowed
to till civil offices, whieji Mat be filled by somebody.
He tonellidid with hoping thatlbese excluding sffi-,
daviti Would be alicifithect; •
Oedetal WALPOLE objected to
.the amoht•of
force aaPropriated to the defence Of the West7'l.lk
Colonies, particularly that at the Bermudas.
Mr. WAIME condasted 'the amount of the Life.
Onards at present with theft establishMent in 1796,
when they only Consisted of 873 men. They were,
I now abstoutely.double what they were, at that time ;
, and in his opinion, they were kept up merely for shew
and splendour. e tan adv.erted to the force io
the ehaish fur, WhiCh in 1802 ' was only'
4,;81a+ but
t
'
/8018.. The total charge for
the Staff in the Nooses
Sitin 1114,000, while in 1792
'
it wail only led,oo(ti and eras now
surgblat that in theari, more than treble
!Whitt it was • 18020 It was
Windward and Leeward islands, the Staff. exceeded
what it was for the whole of the Colonies in 1792.

. .
. .
He then alludsel to the Cortpass:entte Fund, the
principles (if which he praised. He wished to see it
inn-eased, on account of the numerous families who
received benefit from it, and Le I:nped s AMC addition
would he made to it. He tocA On; opportunity of
asking whether Lord CAmder's example had been
followed by any other Gent!,,nner.

Lord PA LfslEllfl'ON in .reply, denied that the
garrisons were precisely the amount of what the Ho-
nourable Gentleman ( MY. Celcraft) had suggested
lae.t year. Bin he dro.ught.it.hard and unfair, if they
were, that Ministers should be accused and censured
for doing what he fLid recommended. With respect
to the Hanoverian Officers, Lc had stated, that their
time of service being4iinited.- they could not by law
be called back to qmployment in this conntry on Lull
pay, while Useful] pay in the.ilanoverian service
was not quite equal to the half-pay in this. It was
deemed desirable to have the benefit of the services
of these Officers in Haeover, as they had made a
distinguished figure under. the. Duke of Wellington ;
and there was no mode of accomplishing this, but
by permitting them to retain their half-pay, which
made no pecuniary 4ifferenre to the public, because
they could not he employed in this country.—
Respecting the addition made to thehalf•payin 1814,
the ride was, that the augmented regulation was to
be given to all officers reduced subsequent to that
date in 1814. It was thought there was not sufficient
ground for gitiag the increase to Officers who had
not come forward to offer their servicei.during the
war.. - Respecting die force in Jamaica, he showed
tthat it was now, only increabed by 300 men more
than in December, 1792, when It was 2,900, it being
now 3,200.
.The Life Guards and Blues were placed
on the same establishment as the other regiments of
cavalry, and there was no reason why they should be
of a lower amount than those other regiments that
were efeenied efficient, as they had must important
duties to perform, As to the Staff, any person at all
acquainted niith the alteration that had taken. place
in the internal state of the army, must know, that a
much greater Staff was necessary now than at the
orthe last .war. It would remain for the House
todecide wileiher they thought, the advantage, in
point of discipline, would justify the increase r He
would venture to say, that as long as the present or.
ganization'ot the military force existed, it Would be
impossible to revert to the same Staff as at the period
alluded to. Some persons were of opinion, that in
many of our Colonies we had even some below. what
-we ought. ' With regard to the pripciple on winds the
alloirentes nf' the Compassionate Fund were framed,.
he didnot .thlrik a,ny considerable addition could
made' o the scale of them, without throwing a great
burden on the public. .
. .
General FERGUSSON solicited the particular at-
tention of his Majesty's Government towards the' re.
lief of regiments serving in • the West ladies. One
great amelioration had been, he
.was happy to think,
alreidy effected, by putting an end to the practice
of drafting the snyvivors of reginunt's ordered home,
into these lately arrived. • There was au instance, of
which he could sp:ak with cert.:Lay, and to the effects
of which he implored .the House and his Majesty's
Government to attend. Four Compenios of Artil-
lery were generally stationed in Fit Charles, in the
island of Jamaica. When these men were seat istos,
there existed in their minds a hoplessness and: Jopdir
of ever returning to their native country.. Thecon-
sequence of such a mortified and desperate state of
mind via's, that they surrendered themselves to drun•
kermess and every species of crime. Of course, the
relaxation of discipline, and the increase of punish-
ments, kept pace. Thank Gonecorporal punishment
in the Britiph Army bad decreased most rapidly, and
superior discipline tolloyled ; but lie.must be obliged.
to state, that amenglt three' hundred men in these
'four compatiles,in the spate of two years 54,0(X) lashes
were infl.cted. One of these companies bad been in
the colony 27, another 2t, and a third 15 years.—
The deaths in two of them had hsen two hundred.
He might. be told that the evil was at an end, as
.these companies'were removed. Bin the same crimes
and ether evil 'consequences would follow, unless it
was held out to the men going out, that they were
to be relieved iiksix-or seven years. Goo forbidthat
any consideration of the expense of the frequent re-
moval. should 'evet induce the country to economize
at the loss of hutirliii life. The artillery were not in
.the department of his Royal Highness the Commen-
der-in-Chiel; or he was confident the remedy would
'have been long before applied —(Heer, hear, luar).—
He feared the terror of being sent to the West Ladies
was sometimes held out towards those in the artillery
perhaps inclined to find fault.
General PHIPI'S considered the observitiOns of
the Htnourible General respecting these artillerymen
to be an attack on the Noble Lord at the head of the
Ordnance Department.
General FERGUSSON denied that any attack on
the Master-General of the Ordnance was either made
or intended, and therefore there could be no ground
fur the warmth 01 the gallant officer. The facts were
only stated with a reference to future attention. They
could not• apply to the present Master-General, as
they adverted to the proceedings of twenty.seven
.years-past, when his Noule relation had no connec-
tion'with the Ordnance.

Mr. PQNSONISY coincided with his gallant friend
that nothing like attack was intended.; it was t:te
system that was reprObated ; .and surely twenty•seven
years was a long period for the continuance of such
an abuse without any check until the present the.
Lord NI.JqEiN*I declared, that he gave his sin-
cere and hearty opposition to the amount of the esia
blishment, should not trust to the Noble Lord's
astortnieof firtherWductions, because the same aa-
snfances- were.given last year; hut it %!;its not. till air
ter tbiHtinseAffsd-foiseiie the Estimates to be with.
drawtr- that. tbey. were Mont* forward with reduc-
tions. Thipitriniage and influence Which ouch an.
Army gave to the Crown in time of peace was far
from being the head ana front of the offending 1"
When he saw an actual armed force of one hundred
and forty thousand men,inthe pay at the King, and
at the disposal of an Administtatioa which he dis
trusted, and whose political principles be was tat
from subscribing to, his alarm was snitch increased.
It was the duty' of every man to feel jealous for the
free Constitution of his Country, and to remind his
conarymen.of the-doctrines to which we owe our
freedom. There .could be found no instance in which
a free country had ever long survived a despotic' bli
litary Establishment, and no instance of the libertir

of a people being over.hrown but by the agency of a
large standing arm 7 (Her, ter, 'car )
Mr. CURWEN r.o one could deny the
danger was great ; but this was not the time to form
An opinion on what line of cueduct shou'd be adopt d.
Every thing would dernd upon Ascertainino the
state of the finance of di? country. Tell thui was
made clear, he could not say to tAt.it went his opi-
nion would gn as to the airon4t of the Army that
ought to be maintained.

Sir WILLIAM BuitROUGHS observed, that
the armed force now proposed doubled the amount
at the former peace, and this with the addition of t.O
thousand yeomanry. He would venture to assert,
that no rational expectation .of
.0 war now existed ;
and if it were u•berwise, we had Allies to look to
themselves poaerlurtif prepared, and pledged to act
in concert with us. 15,-.sides, there was no instiFcp.-
lion et the force as:ii4nl.l to foreizq stations. It wis
three times the ;walnut of that provided in times et
profound peace. 'There. were three times the men
coupled with three tine; the expense which had bsca
experienced in former tinws.

Mr.
GOULBUR N, in reply to the last mentioned
Baronet.regretted that he had been so recent a Mtnn-
Iker of the Wuse As not to bate heard what was said
on the sut:ject of the Colonial Estableshmenti last
Session, when the necessity of the forces there was
clearly made our, And acknowledged by the Gentle.
men opposite. He justified tl'e present Colonial
armies, as necessary to preserve their sllmv.tic tran-
quillity. So far from Ministers being bl.snied lor
proposing excessive Establishments. be thought they
were rather open to blame for risking something, in
order to satisfy the general cry for Economy and Re-
trenchment. The Honourable Batoote weaned not
to be aware that the 110,b00 men incintltj the large
garrisons for India.

Sir WILLIAM BURROUGUS its expiantion,
said, that ;India had been attached by mildnrss, while
the case was different here. Could it be supposed that
the people of this country had increased in their afec.
ttonate regard to its Government. where IN military
had in:reased horn. 15• to SIMHX) In a fe'w years ?
Was the representative Potentate of this couttury nnw
reigning in the people's hearts I—(llear, hear.) 11 he
so reigned, as he would trust he did, where was the
necessity of so large a trlirary force ? He yet hoped
that his Majesty's .Ministers would recoosi.:;:r ..!n.l re-
duce the military estimates they had zuSmitted to the
House, and adopt a system ut c. ncili.aic,n iather than
of coercion.

Lord CASTLEREACII protested a7einst the
mode the Hon. Baronet had adopted of O,T-toeing
the groat amount orthe descriptions of lore-
to-
gether, including yeomanry, and the army in France,
and commeeting upon them as if they were all main-
tained at the expose sf England. the Gentlemen
opposite. he observed. v..ere not ditposed to impeach
Elie estimate. Cr.ainly the Gove•renent of I idi w. s
entitled to all the praise of the Hun. Baronet ; for
u ore mild and liberal Government did not eels.. But
t e people there here attached to the Goletroneut ;
f r they bad not been corrupted by the pia-Mei:re% and
disorganizing principles mid doctrines of the French
Revolution. 'lee Noble Lord proceeded to convince
the Hon. baronet of his erroneous estimaeo, by re-
teeing to the different forces ; and observed that in-
'stead of having rto,ono tor the British EieTire, we
bed only 80,000, wfirel !Meier, though voted by
Parliament, always fell sheet of the amount. With
reepect to the Colonial Gli r.sons ebro Id, !is Mon ti 36
noble Friend (Mr. Goulburn) had %hewed that they
were 0 ly a fraction bereund what they were in
the year 179'2, exclusive of the number nezessAry
for the six new Colonies we had acquired. '(Near.)
Ties Honourable Baronet reel only ask the
ut the Jamaica hiurc!).mtc, to know whether Govern-
ment had notde an extrAvegaie provision tor -Lanai:: t
and the Leeward Is and ? tXhai it was remembered
that since 1%2 we had beceme possessed of lthlta,
the lonian LLs, the Cape Cerod Hope, and many
other possessions, theefurce set apart tor tee Colonies
could not be thought too gear. The only point on
which a question could arise, sees ten the number of
troops kept up in England and Ireland, And this bad
been so fully gene into last )ear, that it was almost
a waste of time to enter into it now. Ot the iiiiniber
of men proposed to be voted for England, when the
WOO allowed for reliefs were deducted, and other
circumstances were taken into consideration, the
numberoet really effective men that would remain
would not be expected to exceed sateen thousand.
He Omitted the country must, in a great measure,
rely on the Yeomanry for safety ; but these were nit
.fitted for every day duty, as they could not se celled
out without putting the individuals compositt; it
to coesiderable inconvenience, and they could not
Se expected to serve in the Docks, or in other
places where the presence of troops was constantly
•necessary. The situation of the country was much
altered since 1792. At that time the country had
.abandaued 'all system in its•army—( Hier, Ikea.).--•
Our army had in fact been made wince that period.
He did not mean to say that the Pnitish army had
not alwayi been distinguished for its !TANI:: conduct
in the field, but it was since 1792 that the machine
had been put in motion, such as it now appeared, re.
gulated as it was by its illustrious Commander-in-
Chief, whose 'unremitting labours had at length
brought it to .a state of unexampled perfection. The
question was nowe should we have an Army, or
should we not ? It we had an Army, we must bare a
Staff to manage it.' Phe Staff now proposed to be
kept up, he contended was nut at all too great, if, in
souse instances, it had not been left imperfect.. The
best proof that could be given of this was found le
the conduct of the Gentlemen opposite. If a smited
objection could hare been urged against the estimate
they, would not have failed to bring forward soote
specific motion for the reduction of them. •
'Mi. CA LCRAF•E s lid, as the Noble Lord seemed
to think Geutlem:non that side of the H..use were not •
in earneir, since they had brought forward no specifx
motion, he would pledge himself to gratify 1 • on a
future occasion by moving a reduction ef• the Esti.
maks on the bringilig up of the Repose
Lord CASTLE.REAGH begged leave to assure
the Hononrable Gentleman, that if lie only proposed
to bring forward a motion of 'the nature just an-,
nounced, to gratify him ( Lord Castlereagh ), he might
' stare himself the trouble—(A /ausies)—He had only
:Omit tO.sati.that it the Honourable Gentleman had
limighthu entalet {persuade the House to take a view
ut the subject different irons the
taken last Session, he would not '

wt vrta;cit they had
hart faded to pro-