Star.
London, England, 1811-03-12 00:00:00

,

lirWirdMEiviAßr PROCEADING.i.
liotiii.OF LoRDS, MARCH 11.

MISCELLANEOUS. •
In a Committee of Privileges, their Letrdships further heard
Counsel and evidence respecting the Berkeley Peerage. The
further consideration of the case was adjourned until the first
• Thursday after the Easter Recess.
The Report Of the British Population Bill was presented, and
the Amendments agreed to by the House, as were some further
verbal Amendments in the BiU, on the snotion of Lord Re-
mICSDALIZ.
•
Mr. JouNsost from the Irish Secretary of State's Office pre-
sented an account of the Fuhded and Unfunded Debt of Ireland,
and the accounts directed to be laid annually before Parliament.
Mr. OWZN presented cermin Accounts from the Director. of
the East India Company, pursuant to their Lordships order of
the Sth of June last.
Mr. Plata ELL, from the Last India Docks Company, presented
an Account of the Receipts and Disbursements of that Col pora-
don for the last year.
These documents were severally ordered to lie on the table.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved, 'Hutt the Lord
Bishop of Litchfield gut Coventry be desired to preach before
their Lordships on Wednesday, the ...Oda «: the Collegiate
, ' C.`futrch of St. Peter, Westminster, being the day appointed for a
General Pan by the Proclamaiion of his Royal Highness the
Prince Regent.—Ordered.—Adjourned till to-morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

• A Message frees the House of Lords requested the commu-
nication of a copy of the report of the Select Committee of the
House of Commons on the State of Commercial Credit, which
WAS sent by Mr. I.USOINGTON.
On the motion of Mr. W. POLE, a copy of the 11th Report of
the Commis-ioners of Schools in Ireland, was ordered to be laid
before the House'.
A -
persori from the Office of Chief Secretary for Ireland imme
diately presented the above, which was ordered to be printed.
ONthe "motion of Mr. W. POLE, an Address was ordered to
be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, that he
would be graciously pleased to cause to be laid before the House
Copies of all Papers -hewing the proceedings of his Majesty's
Most Honourable Privy Council in Ireland on thC representa-
tions made to them by the cotton and woollen Manufacturers of
that kingdom ; Copies of all Correspondence between the Lord
Lieutenant and the Chief Secretary on the subject ; and Copies of
all Conununicatiodi made to the Government of Ireland by the
Commissioners appointed for the relief of the said Manufactrrers.
A Verson from the East India House presented.ajeopy •of the
Proceedings of the Court of Directors on declaring dividend of
sea and half per cent.—Ordered to lie on the table.
• An account was brought up of the quantity of bullion Imported.
Mr. ROSE moved that it should be printed.—Ordered.
The Colchester Water-works Improvement Bill was read a se-
cond time*.
Several other Public Documents were prepented; but the in.
audible manner In which their titles were read by the Clerk; reg.
tiered it impossible in the Gallery to ascertain their description.
• On the motion of Sir JOHN NEWPORT the Accounts laid
before the House on the 4th of March, of Monies paid from the
Irish into the English Exchequer, were ordered to be printed.
Lord FOLKSTONE postponed his motion on informations ex
trait., which Stood rue-Wednesday, to Thursday next. . •
SHOREHAM ILOAD ACT REPEAL BILL. •
Sir E. KNATCHBUI.I. moved the second reading of the Bill
for repealing the Shorehamßoad Act of last Session.
Colonel DUCKETT moved as an Amendment, That the Bill
be read a second slay six months.
A long .'14e0..;00, .--;rely of a prninnal nature, ensued, In
Which Sir E. KiatCSIBULL, Mr. SWANN, Mr. CA LCItA FT, Sir
W. STIRLIC:(; 'bit J. lilt A !TAM, Mr. J. bsarrts, Mr.P. Mooas,
and Sir F. BURDETT participated.
On a division, there appeared—For the Amendment 41—
Against it 90—Majority 49.
The bill was then read a second time and ordered to be corn-

gritted.
On the motion of Mr. CURWEN, accounts were ordered to
be laid before the House, of the Barley imported into Great Bri-
tain from 1800 to 1810, specifying the quantity brought from
Foreign Ports, and the quantity brought front Ireland.
Mr. HUTCHINSON postponed, until an early period after
the recess, his Motion (which atoodlor to-morrow) for the re-
peal of the Convention At.
Mr. WHITBREAD postponed from to-morrow, until Wed-
nesday, March 27, his motion relative to a prevision for the re-
currence of any suspension in the Executive Gov:moment.

- -
COMMERCIAL CREDIT.
The order of the Day having been read, on the
motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the House resolvtd itself into a Committee,
to consider of the Report of the Select Committee on
Commei-cial Credit.
The CHANCELLO 4. of the EXCHEQUER
said, that in rising to submit to the consitkration
of
the Committee of the whole House the result of the
inquiries of the Select Committee, appointed to inves-
tigate the present state of commercial credit, and en-
tertaining the intention of proposing to the Com-
mittee to adopt the measure recommended by the,
Select Committee, he thought it necessary to state
that he should express his opinion with great reluc-
tance, and not till after very serious consideration.—
He admitted that Parliament ought not to be called
upon ; nay, he contended that Parliament ought not
to be called upon to interfere for the purpose of pro-
viding against any misfortunes to which incautious
adventurers might have exposed themselves : because
he conceived that. reasoning oft general principles,
such an unqualified interference would have a ten-
dency, by relieving the apprehensions of individuals
with respect to the commercial speculation in which
they might have engaged, to diminish the caution so
necessary on these subjects, and which was the best
check to rash and ill-advised adventures. But while
he stated this as a generel principle, he yet appre-
hended that there .might be great exceptions to the
rule ; and that the question must always be as to the
merits of the particular case. Of this he was at least
persuaded, that those Honourable Gentlemen,. who
agreed with him that the similar interference of Par-
liament in 1793 was wise and necessary, could net
now broadly deny in toto the expediency of such
at interference. They might agree that though
fitting in 1793, the interference was not fitting at
present. But they could not assert that all inter-
ference was improper at any time. The question,
he repeated, must be on the circumstances of the par-
ticular case ; and lie conceived that the report of the
Select Committee afforeled sufficient grounds for the
motion with which, he should conclude. The con-
sideration of this important subject divided itself into
three heads : —First, the 'nature and extent of the
0,4i1s which the manufactures and commerce of the,
country were enduring;--Secondly, the causes oil
those evils;--And Thirdly, the measures by which!
the evils might with the greatest probability be re-
moved,—With respect to the first of these conside-
rations, he apprehended there could be no differencel
of opinion whatever, but that the nature and extentl,
of the distress, described in the Report of the Select
Committee, Tendered it adviseable that Parliament,
should alopt some measure by which that evil'
might at least be diminished. It appeared distinctly
by the Report, that the distress originatin g with

•
the merchant, and disabling him from paying the
manufacturer,-was felt most severely by.* MM.
facturer, and those employed by him.' lathe win-
,
cipal martufactorers had been compellectto' contilect,
and some wholly to suspend their works. It ap-
peared by the Report, that there was scarcely a cot-
ton manufacturer in the kingdom who had not di-
minished, by one half, the number of persons em-
ployed in his mill ; and that many of the smaller
manufacturers had discharged their people altoge-
ther. It appeared also, that those who were re-
tained by the first description of manufactures., were
:stained at a reduced rate of wages. The conse-
quences-must necessarily be, as they were represent-
ed to be in the Report of the Select Committee, that
the most calamitous distress prevailed in many of
the manufactliring districts. The Report also stated
that the merchants who treded with the Western
World not being able to find an adequate market for
their produce, this circumstance aggravated the dis-
tress of the manufacturers ; and the whole operating
upon the other branches of tradeothhough not imme-
diately connected with those to which he had referred,
produced a gener.il want of confiddnce, and suspen-
sion of credit, which required the application of SWIM
adequate remedy. So much for the extent of the evil.
With respect to the second conzideration, namely, the
causes, it appeased pretty plainly that the whole had
originated from over-extensive speculation to the ports
of South America. These speculations failed in meet-
ing a ready market ; and in many cases the commo-
dities brought back in exchange could not be disposed
of, owing to the market being overstocked at home.
Such were the causes of the evil. It came to be con-
sidered whether the distress was of such an extent,
and was attributable to such causes, as to Make it
wise and prudent for Parliament to afford assistance.
It might be observed that the origin of the existing
distresses—over-speculation, was not a good ground
for such- a measure. • He would not dwell minutely
on the demerit of that rash and inconsiderate con-
duct which had precipitated those who pursued it
into misfortune ; but Gentlemen would bear in mind
that on the opening of South 'American markets in
the Brazils and elsewhere, to the adventures of Bri•
tish merchants, it could scarcely be complained
of that they did not foresee the exact result of
their too extensive speculations. But whatever might
be the merit or demerit of those individuals, the con-
sequences of their conduct had been severely felt by
them. Parliament, even if disposed to be vindictive,
could net withhold from granting relief to these per-
sons, by the supposition that they had not suffered suf-
ficiently for their errors. But it was not to them that
the proposed relief would extend. " They (to use the
words of one of the witnesses, whose evidence was
contained in the Report *of the Select Committee,)
had gone to bankruptcy long ago." It was to the
evil endured by those upon whom the conduct of the
original causes operated, that the Select Committee
recommended the application of a remedy. It
only remained, therefore, to consider, thirdly—
whether the measure suggested in the Report was
calculated to remedy the evil. He had no dif-
ficulty iii admitting that there were circumstances
which marked a- considerable difference between the
present case and that of 1793. In 1793 the markets
were not wholly shut ; they were only interrupted.
The stagnation of trade was then purely temporary.
Credit had at that . period received a checks but it
was a check which a little time would restore: At
present the markets from which relief might be de-
rived were two-fold: South America for the disposal
of our manufactures ; and European for that of. our
fpreign produce. The markets in theWesternWorld
had been stopped by a glut.. A glut, however, was
but a temporary. suspension of demand. There was
no difficulty in the access to those markets ; the only
difficulty was in finding purchasers for the British
manufactures exported thither ; but he trusted that
it no very distant period this difficulty would be re-
moved. With respect to the markets of Europe,
they were at the present moment closed against us by
edicts of the greatest rigour. But experience had uni-
versally shewn that, after the adoption of commercial
restrictions of great rigour, although they were felt
for the time, yet that a practical relaxation soon en-
sued. He had no doubt that the exertions of the
merchants, and the wants of the consumers, would
find means, in a great degree, to obviate the disad-
vantages at present existing. Therefore, although
the present case was not exactly parallel to that of
1793, yet no man could 'say that there was not a pros-
pect that, in twelve months at least, commerce might
experience some advantageous change. Bin even
were this change barely possible, instead of being pro..
bable, in his opinion dhe measure proposed by the Se-
lect Committee ought to be, adopted. Parliament
ought to attempt to relieve the distress. No one could
say that the attempt would not be completely suc-
cessful. The worst that could happen was, that it
would leave the commerce of the country at the ex-''
piration of the twelvemonth, in no better a state than
that in which it was at present. He contended, there-
fore, that as it could not make the state of commerce
worse, but might make it much better, Parliament
were bound to try the measure recommended to them.
To meliorate the state of commerce, if not wholly to
restore it, would be an advantage. The consumption
of the domestic markets ; the opening of the
markets of the 'Western World would afford some
relief; and when to this was added that which
might result from the chances of war, the whole
afforded, in his opinion, a sufficient justification for
the proposed effort. The justice of this reasoning
would be coafirmed by a consideration of the nature
of the grievances as particularly connected with
the cotton manufacture. The rapid growth of this
tuanuf.icture, up to the period when the distress
began to be strongly felt, was extraordinary. It
appeared by the report of the Committee, that the
official value of cotton manufactures exported from
Gat tritain in the year ending the sth of January,
1808, was £9,846,880 ; in the year ending the sth
of January 1809, £12,835,803 ; in the year ending
the sth of January, 1810, £18,616,723 ; and in the
three quarters ending the 10th of October, 1810,
£13,761,136. It thus appeared that the exports were
doubled in two years; and that the trade was sud-
denly checked at its very acme. The immediate re-
vulsion which such a -check would occasion, must ne-
cessarily be felt with the greatest severity. If time
was allowed the merchants , and manufacturers, to
britig,themselves round, the evil would be materially
'diminished. It was to this objeathat the proposed
messurevas directed.. It waill to glee the at adhauts

and traders antippektunity of applying to other ,e• quests tended to increase the distress, because while
•
sontreeso andoo spread over a larger period of time Frtnce had c,ilonies, she did rot interdict colirnAt
In
thilit'prstosure of distress, which, if confined to a sin. produce altogether, and mulch English colonitil pro- \
ti
I
Itle-oimehent, must overwhelm those who were its duce found its way to the Con!inent with tie p
e a.
Activist'. He apprehended he had said enough to so. duce of the French hlamil. From tl e u:oment C
tisfy the Committee, that although the present cise France lost all her Weit•lne.ian vs.,es,...tors, she could cl
differed in some respects' from that of 1793, there have no interest in allo..vii:g c.f such inipartAti,,,, , t
wilt a sufficient resemblance to warrant him in recom- . and they were in consequence more strictly excluded
mending the adoption of a proposition at the present than before. In recommendi,o„ , the mrasiir;: or*
.:
'period similar to that adopted in 1793. In doing this before the House, tilt. Right Hen. G•eirientan I,A 1
I however, regard must be had to the circumstance, informed them no mischief co:11.1 arise tti tr. i:, at, t
;that the extent of the trade on which the present dis- though much good 'night folh.w the experment, it 1
tress operated was much greater than in 1793. If could do no harm. Ile (si:. Pursuaby ) did net 1
the• Committee, therefore, desired to make the mea- ' think, for his part, the exlieriment was so peliectly
sure effectual, if they wished not to starve it by a .harmless, and the meas.:re ol v;ry safe. lie thought
I stinted vote, they would agree to the recominenda- it might do good, and he wohed it might ; but it ap.
!tion of the Select Committee, that the relief aff tried 'geared to him impossible to return to th it sotte from,
!should be six millions instead of five. The Commis- which they had been unfortunately led by their folly,
I sioners appointed in. 1793, 'although empowered to in a way so very easy :Ind free from danger. That
grant relief to the extent of five millions, did not ac-1 spirit of esterprise which had led to such fatal co:-ae.
tually issue more than two millions, two hundred . q.ucnces, ought to be discouraged, that something
thousand pounds. On a similar principle, he should I,ke a stop should be put to such wild and unpick-
propose to empower the Commissioners in the present able speculations. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
instance,. to grant relief to the extent of six millions, told them that the money torn advanced would not,
not with the supposition that that sum would be re• in all probability, be lost to the public. He did him
quired, but that relief being open to such an extent, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the justice to be.
the credit of those who were suffering might be sus- here be would endeavour to name such Cornmissio.
tained, and themselves rendered able to go on with ners on the occasion as would do their duty and look
much less perhaps than would otherwise be necessary. well to the application of the rnortey ; but when they
The regulations and restrictions which accompanied (the House) were called upon for £6,000,000 in Es-
the measure of 1793, were those . which he should chequer bills, just after they had vcted £12,000,000,
propose to the House for adoption at present ; with and when they reflected that all the circulating not-
this exception, that, from the nature of the case, he dium at present in the country was paper, it was
would recommend the periods of repayment should their duty to consider how far they ought to counte-
r* placed at a greater distance of time from each nance such extensive' issues of paper money. He
other. The regulation which he should introduce into . thought it was their first duty to narrow, as far as
the Bill (should the House allow him to bring it in) might be, the circulation of poper. Whether or nue
would be, to make the first quarter's instalment pay- they hadnow reached that pea iod at which k would
able about the middle of January, and the remaining be proper to put an end to it altogether, and restore
instalments payable three months after each other, the proper circulating medium, wit; it question on
until the whole was repaid, thus following the mode , which he would not venture to decide,bet he thought
recommended in the Report. It did not appear to they ought tco do something towards ptitting a stop
him necessary to intrude further on the Committee to the extension of the paper circulation, It was a
than by moving, . I, painful task to refuse solicited relief to sufferers, v ho
“ That it is die opinion of this Committee, that his Majesty suffered not through their ‘own misconduct, but tor
should be empowered to issue Etchequer Bills, to the amount of the imprudence of others.' 'Feeling this, fie would
• six manses, to Commbsioners, under certahi regulations and not take the sense of the House on the but
m rs
restrictions, for the purpose of enabling those Comissione to having made these few observations, whit lhe had
advance certain sums, by way of loan, to such persons as may re-
quire Owns, on due security being given for the repayment of the thought it his duty to make, he still should give his
same." I
consent to the measure proposed. Doing this, lie
Mr. PONSONBY said there was no similarity be- might not act strictly Nilo his cluty;:.es lie 'thought
tween the situation of things_ at present. and the cir- the principle of a tendency rather' to-do:harm thin
' cumstances in which the country was placed in 1793. 'good ; but under such circumstances ins die prevent,
• At that period the Continent,of Europe, instead of he had not resolution enough to oppose that which
being hostile to us, was, with the exception of France, ; afforded any thing like a chiice of alleviating the
not only friendly, but the greater part of h was in i 'distress of those wheclaimed their assistance.
i alliance with us, and France not only wanted the in- Mr. HUSKISSON thought the attention of Par-
fluence she now has over the surrounding nations, liament ought to be particularly directed to the
but she was unable to prevent their armies taking means.of relieving one class of persons whose mbar-
the field against her interests. The Right Honour- rassments involved many industrious members ot the
able Gentleman , had said, those who laid entered community in the deepest distress. That.class of
into the largest. speculations with respect to South persons to which he alluded was the manufacturiag
America, bad been punished for their rashness by class. These, from the situations in• which they
bankruptcy, and that those now to be relieved were stood, had not brought the calamity on themselves
the victims of those speculations, and not the part- , by their imprudence and unjustifiable, speculations,
ners in the crime. For his part, he thought (what- as they did but execute the orders they had reset-
ever blame might be attempted to be thrown on those ' veil 'from the merchants, and were distressed in
who bad been most venturesome) that the origin of consequence of the latter -being urable to make
the evil might be traced to the exaggerations, the false- the proper returns: Notwithstanding the doubts
hoods, and the misrepresentations which had been which must be felt on the subject, as well wi-O
• rd in that House. South America had been spoken respect to the efficacy of the plan as on accon:-... - •
o affording a market that would take all our mer- of the inconveniences which might be expve:ed
chandise, and that he looked upon as the great cause to arise from it, in a case where the necessity
of the recent failures, and the evils of which the fuer- was so urgent, he would not oppose it, or in any
cantile world at present complained. The Right Hon.. way obstruct the measure in its progress. The Rath t
Gentleman had said the present state of things was . Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, had said he
to be considered as but temporary, though it might considered the cause of the stagnation at press:::
be of longer duration than the stagnation felt in . complained of, to arise principally .trom the circti::.-
1793; and, under these circumstances, he thought the' stance of the markets of the Continent being ,lot
same measure ought to be resorted to as had been against our merchandise, and had contrasted the S;;~
adopted on that occasion. He could not agree with of things at present with the situation of affairs al
this. Was the market of South America glutted' at 1793. If such were the cause it would not be to !:rn
present? Had that country at present more of our a subject of great alarm, but this he was decidedly of
merchandise than was sufficient for the consumption opinion was not the case. The progress of the Fiench
of one year ? If that were the.case the British ma- arms had been gradual, and had that been tulle cause
nufacturers must stand still till the' stock was con- of our commercial embarrassments they must have
sumed. He could not tell to what amount that coup- come progressively on, instead of bursting on us
try might be stocked with the produce of our inclus.' all at once. TI e Report contained little mere than
, try, but when six millions were thus called for, he the theory and doctrine of two respectable pers.an
thought they had a right to conclude that things who had been examined by the Committee, toi:e:ix:
were so—that without such assistance they could not with the opinions of the Committee thereon. with
right themselves in less than one, two, or perhaps which he was not satisfied. They had stated it to
threnyears. The Right Honourable gentleman had be the opinion of the witnesses that relief from Par.
talked of the great trade of the country, but he ap- liament should he given as in 1793. It cots tr 7!
'peered to labour miler a mistake. Exports were they admitted the circumstances of the casti we:-,
not trade—:-but he had spoken of them as if their , different, but this he thought was it er' 1,?1.----
amount was a sufficient proof of the flourishing state , They ought to have been more explicit, ..n.i stat, i
of our commerce. If we made extra exports, we' wherein that difference consisted. In 179.; t' '.!
ought to have returns; and if, instead of this, what Committee appointed to inquire into tit,. sit! cc%
we sent out lay locked up in South America for : stated in their Report, that the sudden di,,•redtt
two or.three years, it was not thence to be inferred, : of a considerable quantity ot paper, ham the ta:1:1:(•
that, because our exports were large, our trade must ' of different banks, taused a scarcity or. the circulatil:
be great. He did not think with the Chancellor of . medium, which could not be immediately repl.!..e. :
the Exchequer, that the present stagnation of trade on this subject the Committee gave it as their ci),:.
was to be traced principally to South America.— . that the circulating medium should beincrcast•:!. i •
The state of the European markets, was, in his opi- Report concloded by saying, an equivalent , IT' .: ''J
Inion, more immediately the cause ; and what pros- be furnished for the circulating medium, n:::,.. !.•.•
ilpect of a change'in them within any reasonable time been thus e
onsuddnly withdrawn. A stoiipige I- iv •.i.
I could the Right Honourable Gentleman now hi-Ad taken place at e house, a suspicion inin.J;.,:,
out ? It had been said, that after a glut a brisk de. fell on all the rest, and hence the scarcity ot.tl.e
mand was to be expected, and a stagnation of trade c:rculating medium was naturally to be acccunti..7l :-
wasusuallysucceededbya most advantageous change. on that occasion. NVithin three months aft:r that,
He was aware that it had been so hitherto, but it had with all the markets of the Continent open to to,
been so from events which were not such as were the markets and manufactories of England two in -
likely to occur again. The last time the French state of total stagnation. The public securiti.s welf•
seriously directed their attention to the annihilation . excessively depreciated, Exchequer Ells wet, -:
of our trade, they had been called from the boo- forty per cent. discount, and Navy Bilq n,r.• ...t
ders of the ocean by the Austrian war. The Spa- I 10 or 11 per cent. discount, and it was irnivis')iz
nish contest had made a new- diversion in favour of to gain discount for the most inconsi,lerthl.: •::r.
our commerce ; but what prospect was there that ; At present all Government securities, instead :,Iboil
such events would again take place ? They had' at a discount, bore. a premium. We now fold with i
formerly been told by the Right Honourable Gentle.: loan hanging over us, amounting, as he tease, ioidoo,
man that tho edicts of France had shut the markets to not less than £23,000,000, that Exchequer Bil;
of the Continent against us, but he (the Chancellor I. were at a premium, and no difficulty whatever, 'c IS
of the Exchequer) had found out an instrument that I experienced in obtaining discount for a bill proper!F
would soon open them again, and restore tie trade of . endorsed with good names. He was given to oti.O•-
the nation. He then brought forward his Orders in i stand that that Encrning (yesterday) Navy liiil. !,.: I
Council; which had been sanctioned by Parliament. I been discounted at foot and a halt p..:. cent. %Old,: L.:.
He would now ask if they had produced that effect.? public paid on tht m but five per ctoot law ;so 112
or if there were any probability of their accomplish- . complaint at the Bank was git.t that bills w, te ceto •
ing within a short time the object he had had in ; nually coming in to be discounted, but that there WAS
TIM ? -From the present restricted state of our inter- , a want of such coming in for discount. The bus •
i
court*, our colonics were rather burthensome than ness in the moneyonarket WAS VCI:y different to A h.::
pro6toble; as thir ' produce waslocked up lime, in it was in 1793. Then the. persons'who would dio
consequence or our being unable to find a market for 'count Bills Were the persons not to 'he found, ni se
it on- thetontinent. '--iror the VIM reason, if con- dillt there was a scarcity of the persons wanting such