Star.
London, England, 1819-04-08 00:00:00

CAMBERWELL COMMON INCLOSURE BILL.

Mr. HOME SUMNER, although Chairman of
the Committee who had deliberated on the Bill for
the Inclosure cf Camber ell Common, yet had dif-
fered from them widely. He had made his report
exactly as directed by the Committee. But as he
continued of opinion that the subject had experien-
ced great injustice, he should move that the Bill
be re-committed.

Mr. Alderman WOOD was fully persuaded that a
Bill for the inclosure of such a place as Camberwell
Common, so healthful to the citizens of London,
ought not to be countenanced by the House. The
'worthy-Alderman had been a Member of the Com-
mittee, and affirmed, that the party themselves had
not proved that the ground thus proposed to be in-
closed amounted to forty acres—not even 15 acres.
Thus fat there was a difference ir. the account. The
salubrity of the air of Camberwell Common was
particularly gratifying to the people of. Southwark
and London ; and it would be a great abridgment of
their innocent recreations if they were deprived of
the beneficial effects of this Commor. Children and
people of all descriptions resorted thither for the en-
joyment of the air. Sometimes there were 10,0091
children assembled there from the various Charitable
Institutions. But a strong argument against the in-1
closure was, the unanimous opinions of the whole
inhabitants around Camberwell Common, who, if
the Bill be persisted in, would petition against it.
The inhabitants of London, as well as Southwark,
were particularly interested the continuance of the
Common, as now open for the benefit of the com-
munity at large. They had now the privilege of
turning out their horses or donkies on the Common,
and might amuse themselves variously in couples,
daring the holiday giuttbols-44 tough.),TheCona.
mime had heard both parties. The worthy Alder.,

Pan law no 1013 d derivable from such a project. It
uld not asisiver the avaricious views of those who
acted as champions foe the indosbre, as the expense
of it would.swallow op the whole profits. He hoped
drat the „House would not consent to the Bill. It
was an impolitic measure to encourage the inclosure
of Commons around or in the vicinity of the Metro-
polis, as it deprived the people who had been busily
engaged during the whole week, of their rustic re-
creations. The two proprietors, for whose benefit
the inelosure was about to be made, were not so deeply
interested in it as was imagined—the one was indiffe-
rent alma it, and the other was a minor, who was
not consulted on the subject. Besides the petitioners
now alluded to, he believed that the Hrids of all the
Charitable Institusions in London would unite in a
formidable petition or remonstrance agaiot the tenour
of this Bill.
Mr. MARRYATT entertained simile opinions to
those avowed by the Honourable and worthy Alder-
man. The commons around London could not be
termed waste ground, for they were constantly in
the occupancy of the people. They had been em-
phatically called 0, the lungs of Metropolis," of
which Camberwell Common formed so essential a
part. The Commons near London were sources of
health and invigoration, and ought not to be aban-
doned to the cupidity of avaricious adventurers.—
The pleastires derivable from short excursions en the
Commons to those who were confined nearly the
whole seek, wc:e indescribable, except by those
who improved and enjoyed their health by such de-,
lightful recreations. A strong argument against the
Inclosure Bill arose from the innocent pursuits of the
field in preference to the contamination of public-
houser, He.should vote against the re-commitment
of the Bill, in the hope that it would have the effect
of getting rid of it altogether.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM had heard that twelve
Gentlemen had come down to vote against the Bill.
These twelve Gentlemen, he could say, knew no-
thing about it ! They had not been informed of the
nature or principles of the project, and therefore
were unfit to vote on the subject. The truth of the
contents of the Bill were proved before the Comrr it-
tee; and the professions of the preamble Lad also
been fully certified by surveyors. Instead of the nu-
merous petitioners mentioned by the Honourable
Members, only two had made their appearance.
With regard to the number of chilorea who resorted
to the Common now under consideration—such, per-
haps as those from the Deaf and Dumb School, and
Other Institutions—the Committee knew nothing about

it--they had received no such evidence.

Mr. DENNISON avowed himself inimical to the
Bill. If Camberwell Common was an object of in-
terest to the people of London and Southwark, the
House ought not to pass a Bill for its inclnsure. The
Honourable Baronet who had just sat down, ought
to recollect that many people of London and South-
wark, who once a week, at least-, required some rural
,recreations, could not, in imitation of the Honour-
able Baronet, ride out in Hyde Park or the Regent's
Park, finely caparisoned on a noble steed—(Laugh-
ter).—lnstead of the Honourable. Baronet going on a
hunting party on Easter Monday, let him repair to
Camberwell Common, where he would see thousands
of children charmingly amused by the healthful re-
creations of the field—(Near, hear)—To preserve the
health of the people of London and Southwark, and
to check the spirit of avarice clearly demonstrated
by the-formation of this unpopular Bill, he should
vote against it.
Mr. C. CALVERT said, that as the majority of
the evidence had been against the Bill, and as it was
a measure that could never, be approved of by the
people, he should vote against it.
Mr. Alderman HEYGATE observed, that as the
Bill was against the innocent recreations and happi-
ness of the people, it should have his opposition.
' Mr. HOME SUMNER, in order to prove the
utility of the Bill, entered into the particulars of the
evidence. He complained, however of the Clerk
who attended the Committee, as incapable of dis-
charging his duty with truth and facility.
Mr. Alderman WOOD, commenting on the Ho-
nourable Member's complaint against the Clerk, said,
that he was not to blame, as there had been no evi-
dence to take down. The Clerk could therefore
have committed no error, as insinuated by the Ho-
nourable Member.
The House then divided—Ayes, 56—Noes, 85—
Majority, 27.—During the exclusion of strangers, a
Motion was made, " That the Bill be read this day
three months;' which was carried, and the Bill is
consequently lost.

ADJOURNMENT AND ABMS.
Lord CASTLEREAGH took that opportunity of
recurring to his announcement on Monday, relative
to his intended Motion on this day for the Adjourn-
ment of the House during the Recess. But as it had
since been found necessary that the House should sit
to-morrow, to receive back from the Lords the Bank
of Irdland Restriction Bill, and afterwards to witness
its auction by the Royal Assent, his Lordship, to
meet the exigency of the moment, would also post-
pone his intended Motion till to-morrow. The No-
ble Lord at the same time gave notice, that on Tues-
day, the 3d of May, he should move or the Revival
of the Committee on Charitable Donations.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL hoped that the Noble
Lord would favour him with naming the earliest
day after the Recess intended for the recommence-
ment of dicussions on public affairs ? This informa-
tion would be highly satisfactory to many Members
who might have objects of pursuit in the country, or
might be engaged on private affairs.
Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that although he
should propose that the House should meet on Wed-
nesday (we presume, Wednesday sennight) little or
no business would be transacted the first week. The
public business would therefore commence on the
Monday following.
The SPEAKER stated. the necessity of the House
meeting on Wednesday, as a ballot stood for the fol-
\owing day, namely Thursday.

THE ALIEN ACT.
Mr. C. NUTCHINSON gave notice, that on the
7th of May he should move for the repeal of certain
parts of the Alien Act.

HUSBANDRY HORSES.
S:r G MONCK moved, that there be laid before
the House an Account of the Amount of the Pro-
duce of the Tax au.Labowing wad Husbandry Masi.
for the year 1819.--tladond.

Mr. BENNETPlNsaidA,lhtecroTrn pl.nrrtaneeti
eaancenaAdindrieitsismtboro hisofßftomYalalellciognho,vanesobuietil.,t;ecstsertett.l:,ee::in
o
Regent, to stop the sailing of a vessel ‘' •
conveyt n omove
Bay. Is was not his intention, in the smallest
gree, to pass any censure on any public
respect to any thing in the arrangement of r}:,
wl—he was quite aware he should be anstvert•,••
though in former times very great abuses •
in the conveyance of prisoners to New South
yet, by certain recent regulations which had
place, many of those abuses had been renit::_
a much better system than what had forrne-i,
wailed was now estagrbthelieashteilid.osldsivitßdouutathihseiscs
against the system of Transportation ;,sell, •
Ipvt parn:cliumctiseivrye of great
wlthout effecting any of the objects for which is
intended. He objected to the Transportation
victs.,—firstr from the effects produced on that;
the passage--and, secondly, from the state in . •
they were placed on their arrieal at New
He should confine his observations solely re '
Convicts. His great objection to the sending ,
Convicts to Botany Bay was, that the p/,,,s
sending them had a necessary tendency to
and debase them. Whatever means his Dial
Government might adopt—whatever -higitt t;:t
precautions appointed in the regt,:atislis uhich
been made—unless they could prevent all ir:e•
between the females aid the crew—that
tern of prostitution which dc tsed still tenser si
who were already bat too low is the scale of nt,:i
lity, would rill be carried on—aad the minds
morals of the convicts would becompleteiy corru-
on their reaching New South Wales. tic o'ap:.•
also to the system of Tr nispo:tation on fi:is
that as all punishment ought to have for objcct
example or the refolanation of the ciiminul, su '
from transportation, at the present mooted,
ing as an exarnp::..:r v...; well known that it
eagerly courted by alines: oil the convicts. it.
pottation might, ir—lced, operate as a punish:l:n:
those who left some ties behind them, who wet! 1,
from their family—but all the f, iendless and r+eser.
criminals did not look on transportation in the
of a punishment, but as a benefit. It was a far
to some but a cruel grievance to others. Titere cea:
be no greater objection to a punishment than it, it,
quality. The next objection was its inefEcacy in
of way example. It war impossible for any '
to refuse their assent to what was stated by an i.
nent French writer—that the ordinary class of ma-.
kind were only affected by what took place near tiler,
and that what took place one thousand miles off?::,s
as much a matter cf indifference to them as what
took place one thousand years ago. He wished to
state the proportions in which the two sexes had
been sent out to New South Wales. Front 17::
to 1818, there had been sent there 2,957 comer.,
while upwards of thirteen thousand males had bun
sent in the same period. One great objection to tin
system was the absence of all classific-
very same ship were sent out person!
manner of crimes, and sentenced to
of transportation. Frcm 1816 to
had been sent out; of these, 121
iported for seven years: Now there
sron whatever made for bringing these
Notwithstanding the instructions sent
Bathurst in 1812, it was certain,
time, no provision whatever had
sending home those whose period
The women were compelled to stay.
other way in which they could return
by per-tonal prostitution—(Cries (?; Hr
They might return home in King's sbi
pretty and young, but not otherwise,
mg their passage. A number of the t
ported were transported for life. They
capital convicts; but the sentence of
executed, but commuted for transportation for ht-.
Now those who were transported for life were sent
out in the same ship, and asscciated with those wha
were transported only for seven years, and for minor
offences. The Statute of the 19th of the King was
driwn up by Sir William Blackstone, assisted by Mr.
Howard. It was contempt ted by the framers of this
Act, that persons sentenced for seven years should •
hardly be sent out at all. These were deemed fit
persons to be kept in Correction Houses and Peni-
tentiaries, on account of the great expense of trans-
portation, and the difficulty of returning home; and
it accordingly happened that few persons, for a num-
ber of years after passing the Act, sentenced only for
seven years, were actually sent out. But now, with
respect to female convicts, all those transported for
seven years went out. The consequence was, that
persons, convicted of the most trivial of&nces, were
in effect subject to the same punishment with tme
convicted of capital offences. But one great ob;e:-
tion to the sending out any more women to I.fa
South Wales arose out of the state of that Cc:onr.
It was impossible, indeed, for any person who looked
into the question of that Colony—for it could no
longer be considered as a Penal Settlement, hav:r.g
now become a Colony—not to be aware that it
by no means a place where the morals of the ccn-
eicts could be improved. He owned that the Cur:-
mittee up stairs had had ample testimony that Gc-
eernment were making important changes in th:s rs-
vect. But till he saw what was the effect of thoe
changes, he could not consent to send out a frese
cargo of women to New South Wales. He rr..:A
complain also of the manner in which women were
brought from country gaols to one spot, for the pey-
pose of being put on board the vessels destined for
New. South Wales. One unfortunate girl had been
brought from Cambridge, so bound in chains that it
was necessary to saw them asunder. Another had
been brought in a state of torture all the way frcrl
Carlisle. When once on board, no distinction svas
observed between the small and the great offender:
the girl whose passion for finery had prompted her
to commit a petty theft, was placed in the same bed
with the shameless prostitute who robbed on system.
He held in his hand a letter written by Mr. Marsden,
Chaplain-General in New South Wales, and stating
that promiscuous intercourse between the sean;.ed.
and female convicts had prevailed on board a s•-•?
which had carried out a great number of womel.
. utrr
previously' trained under the care of Mrs. Fry
others to habits of morality and decorum. The
facer commanding the vessel had enforced stn ;
arrival at St. ijcitaa, but thec&34

erettancecf Dtt a
lighness the
vessel destitizd tb
convicts to $o Go
t the smallest
public officer
gement of this
be mamma I.:do
.t abuses prey, tb
New South %,v;%
which had ttk 111
nen
: had forrnetiy
his objection r•
ttio i‘sell,
he COUntry, 3n2
Is subjected to
is for which it
nsportation of ck.
!need on than; ,
the state in .1:: sl
It New
IS solely zc
he sending s:
hat the ptccrss
ndency to son„-
cans his Majest‘.' tl
s.cr -night
~..tons sthich
vent all ir:t.reour.
—that ',;e2er......1
i still lower thr.._
the scale of moia. 1
ad the rninst a:— I
mpleteiy corrupt;
ales. He
tin on tots gr,r,tia
tve for ohjzct
e ctiminal, sO fa:
ent momevt, sem '
known that it ras
convicts. TrAts.
as a punishment :o
em, who werf t.'na •
nzlless and r4tlcill
7tation in the 1
It was a J.:ova!
Ithers. There
lament than it, it.
its inefficacy in •_*3
for any Gentlemez
s stated by an Frr. •
inary class of ma-.
ak place near thez,
isand miles off'?::s
to them as what
o. He wished to
he two sexes had
'ales. From ITty:
ere 2,957 worm,
ad males had burl
:at objection to try!
ssification. In th•
ms convicted of all
to different periods
1818, 202 women
1 were only ma-
ere was no provi•
these v. omen bad.
sent cut by Ler'
1, that up to thi;
d been made for
)d was expired.—
ty. There was na
return home but
r Hear, hear, kw.)
s ships if they were
ise, except by p'y-
the persons trar.-
They were called
of the law was not
aportation for Itfr.
for life were sent

as attended with hardship and cruelty. Mr. Giles,
• inT on board, declared that the utmost con-
soon.
d incubordination had prevailed, and that
recil:ic:s and passengers were unnecessarily put
oerr allowance of water, which produced much
ofeing, esrecially amongst the childivn.• There
we evidence on the part of Mr. Marsden, and
0 'inure had before been put in possession of evi-
w that there was a want of accommodation for
tet:lnale convicts. A few of them were lodged in
ifetory at Paramatta, and the rest were obliged to
erin the streets and to have recourse to prosti-
io order to procure the means of subsistence.
ir.•ery and depravity of these persons. was so
thw Mi. Marsden, who had been a consider-
:inrc in the habit of contemplating them, de-
,ta that it required all his fortitude to bear the
ri which he had to witness. His object was 'to
r!the female convicts from being sent to the fac-
,rof para:r.atta ; and he, for one, could not .con-
that any human being, either man or woman,
,11,d he sent to New South Wales, till some place
gi provided for their reception. He (bat. Bennet)
alrody stated the helplessness and the hard)
hosof the women on board the ships ; he had gone
ett .i:1; them, and lodged them in the factory of
parnatta ; and he would- nols• shew what became of
•!../n, when they had arrived there. Mr. Marsden,
letter which he now held inihis hand, said, " The
Paramatta is divided into two wards, one
:',•!;;:.e reception of men, and the other for women ;
v,tas tilers are no locks on the doors, the men and
women have easy access to each other, in conse-,
Face of which the grossest debaucheries take place.
remonstrated on these things again and again,
la so remedy has yet been provided These regu-
otts are attended with the worst'effects. What Can
'rune than for a Clergyman coming to visit the

• and Ending men and women lyitig promiscu. -
"sly in the same beds?
;considerable time back, been either a lamp or
;r,Jle in the hospital, nor can either be procured
n:o watch a dying person; and I has c frequently
.n obliged to grope my way in ping to visit the
.ic eig:::: This letter was dated on the 6th of
;Oyx:, 1813. He abstained from reading other
...r.;:ii:, ik.scause he did not wish to criminate in-
i
,C.i ta:ls: :nit, on the contrary, was desirous to keep
we:. view all that referred to the conduct of public
cai...:. Whether the new system of this year, with
textto the regnlations 'on board female convict
ii.g, wou:i lie better than that of last year, he
::'al not inquire; but he objected to a system .un-
isthich, chat tic women arrived at New South
fin, they had no place where they could lay their
He had shun n what their lamentable situa-

4 under such circumstances; and he thought
:srld not fail to excite compassion in the breasts
dl •ho rd.ected on it; but at the same time he
Howe to remember, that true benevolence
consist in lamenting over grievances, but sn
mucidg to provide a remedy for them. He
,imxicus to persuade the House, therefore, not

tui ur any other female convict ship sail.—
sht be said that it was necessary to send men
as it woulz: be attended with danger to keep a
o; convicts a home ; but this could not be
feznal3 convicts. No mats could say that the
of tl:2 country depended .on sending females
'ter; could be confined easier than men could-

rn.;:it be kept in the jail; est' the respective
c, wine of which wire well adapted for them,
they could work themselves out by their good
am. Re did not believe that among the female
::::cts ti.ere was any considerable number so radi-
:y bad, as to render it necessary to send them out
:1C country. This he knew, that cif the women

Ant out, a great portioa weretrauspmted for
)..1.-$ onl:, and a great majority of them• were
!owl. fic ~ould ask the House, therefore,

er thee would continue to subject any propor-
,
hantver small, of the female youth of this
r-try a system, the end of which Was vice, sin,
w, and latterly death !—(//eardseen)'—ile con.
I eith moving an Address to his Royal High-
the Prince Regent, praying that his Royal
would be graciously pleased to stay the
if a vessel destined to convey Female Convicts
Smah Wales.
FORCE, hi seconding the motion,
he WaS anxious to say a few words, as he should
14 Le able to proJuce a ;,,,ener::l disposition to
cc in the motion. For though the Honourable
M:7•7 was deservinl of the highest. credit for his
'r.ionto the interests of humanity, and for the in-
zees which he had obtained in the present case,
not but think it was not necessary to agree
Parts of his speech, in order to agree with his
*.zsias. The 11,,tise was now engaged in an in-
• the state of the Colony of New South
especially as to the state of the Female
.:31,v tinder these circumstances, it was
that the Howe should decide finally
4•'.y a;,.ainst sending females thither, in
jll.l to the motion. There might be a
!,;.!ounst for hoping that remedies might
:um:lves, to put an end to the abuses winch
:wring the passages and in the Colony,
this iove,tigation was going on, was it too
a.ty the passage of one ship, to see whether
13t be effected? Certainly the superin-
the vessel in question, was a person whose
was in the highest degree honourable, and
be no doubt but that the greatest atten-
be paid by him to the unfortunate beings
:ate. But when the system was, as it had
!a to be, fundamentally bad, it was tog
:ice it to de, end upon the character of a
.:d .alt and when not only the enormities'
but the state of the factory at Para-
the wretched hospital, was taken into
03jections to the sending out females at
111,l not be found to be removed. The
cf:he motion would be to stop the vessel
• '• which would enable the House to
•• : ultimately be done. In the present
,;lony, every fresh addition to the num-
, '.•7%,1, while there was no increase of ac-
;'•'•'!:1, must add to the misery and vice of
%Lre at present there, besides plunging the
kitn ,one wretched state. As to the
the fl,Naourable Mover had referred,
should •Azte that they were written
a et..nil:44y of ivate friendship, with the
a'r 'A:nt to the Commiunn ; but from
't how little dependence was to

•be pieced for skskinattegement, except on a system'
of regelations secured against infractions, as those
exertions by which it was thought abuses would be
prevented were found itieffectnal, He trbsted, there'
fore, the HouseNieuld nottonsetit, without necessity,
do kehd Off these-poor'ereatures, lest they shouldgive
rise to an idea that they were not so disposed to'check •
abuses as he hoped they actually were.
Mr. BATHURST said, that before he etantined I
the Speech of the Honourable Mover, he should al-
lude to the argument of his Honourable Friend (Mr.
Wilberforce), who had argued that no ferfrale con.
riots should be sent off until the Report of the Com. i
mittee was madeo and, 'he supposed, till some regula-
tion was founded upon it. Now, if this argument
were followed out consistently, it would go much be-
fond the mien motion, as it would apply not to I
one Vessel, but to all convicts, male or female. But I
then it was argued by the Honoura*Mover, that it
was difficult to keep men, but that !alleles might be
kept with great convenience—(4 laugh). lie did
not mean to treat the subject with jocularity, he'
meant that there would be comparative •facility in
finding accommodation• for females in the prisons.
This he should prove was not the case, and he should
show that unless there were much -greater inconvea
niencies in the. present -system than had been shewn
to have resulted from it, the law of the land, as it re-
lated to the transportation of felons, could noewisely
he suspended. It was notorious the gaols in all parts
of the country were crowded, before the Assizes with
prisoners for trial, and after the Assizes. with pri-
soners under sentences of various kinds. In the best
regulated prisons, the excess of criniinals was so great,
that the usual means of classification and separation
could not be resorted to, and.the increase of crimes
was truly said to be the consequence. It was there-
fore not a matterof indifference whether the convicts
should be transported or remain. The most urgent
demands were made to the Executive Government,
for the removal of convicts from 21L:pans of the,
country, and complaints were heard -thas: these .de..
mands were not, speedily enough attended .to.—
It was especially for the removal of-the females, that
demands were made. Of these, there had been 180
in various parts of the kingdom, • Of these, 40 or 50
were advanced in life too far to be transported with
propriety ; another. class of , about the same. number
was composedof persons, who from theinage or other
circumstances, seemed to afford a prospect of refor-
mation. _These too—were. detained, and he bad,-no
doubtilxiiii.t4A he 4041, meet with the apprpeat
tion of the Honourable Meniaber (Year), to becent.to;
the Penitentiary when. accomMOdation could be found.
for theM. There were 9Q .who did not cane within
either cliss,,.whO.were not. very far advanceci,in life
but of theiacormation of. whom by those wh0...4d
obsereediheni, lopes were not entertained. ITbek,
were to be.sent lit the vekiel.in question.. IQ the
facts • mentioned by the-Irobeitiable.lVleinberjie—clid
not mean 'to question then); init it waii,§
bered that in' the promisc.noqsinterCoiirse of the suites,
which had taken glee i 4 vessel nientiOned,' the
guilt was equal on bcits iiiies; it was the intercourse
in the majority of instances of persons preVionsly
abandoned and profligate. ' And' it was acknow-
ledged that when; the ship passed St. Helena, this
disorder was put an end to by better regillations.
As to the deficiency of water, or the misconduct of
the Commander, it did not fall on females particu-
larly. These abuses alone, though highly reprehen-
sible, form a reason for preventiag the country from
being disburthened of the population, stibject to the
law of transportation. As to the morality of the Co
bony, if men continued to be sent out, he could not
but think that the cause of morality would be likely
to be advanced by sending out a proper proportion
of women. As to the abuses stated to exist in the
Colony itself, the account of many of them had been-1

derived from the evidence of witnesses before the
Committee, who had not yet been cross-examined.
As to the state of the Hospital, this was.the first tithe
he had heard of it, as the Honourable Member had
not examined a witnes.> before the Committee, who-

had been long in Ncw South Wales, respecting it.
The Honourable Member might by his statement
have induced the House to believe, that all the wo-
men transported were sent to that worst of places,
Paramatta. But the case was different. The first
thing done when a ship, either of men or women,
arrived at the Colony, was, that the inhabitants •of
the Colony attended to choose those who they might
conceive were likely to make gaud servants. They
were taken under certain regulations—for instance,
bachelors were not allowed to take females, but they
were hired by married men, or by women—(Hear.)
Many of course were so employed ; the rest, it was
true, were sent to this woollen factory at Paramatta.
But there were not such numbers at that place as
might be supposed; there were only fifty or sixty,
besides others sent there forcibly employed by way of
punishment. They were all allowed, after three
o'clock- in the day, to work for themselves, to pro-
vide the means of subsistence. Orders bad been re-
cently sent out to provide them with accommoda-
tions, which the females in the present ship would
find when they arrived. It by no means absolutely
followed that they gained their living by prostitution.
As to the abuses of which the Honourable Mover
spoke which occurred on the passage, it should be
remembered, that by far the worst case, that in which
the women had been seni on board a ship of war,
had not occurred in the last year, and that the rela-
tor hadAot given the means of ascertaining the name
of the ship or its commander. If the advice of the
Honourable Mover were complied with, it would re-
commend, he supposed. that the women who were to
be no longer sent to New South Wales, should be
lodged in Penitentiaries, to be built in different parts
of the kingdom, but thh was not the work of a day
or year : even in those places, where Houses of Cor-
rection existed, they were overcharged. The argu-
ment which was alleged in favour of the Motion,
via. that an inquiry was pending, went not only to
the suspension of the system 'of ft-Importation, but
of the punishment of death, and•the whole criminal
law to an indefinite period: In one case the Houonr-
able Member had gone beyond the evidence. It was
not stated before thr Committee that the convicts had
no means of tyrant after the expiration of their sen-
tence. It was said, that they did not wish to rettrn,
and that they might get the means'of returning by
four or five years labour.
Mr. BUXTON rose to correct a material ewer hi
the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman's (Mr; Bi-
tbutit4 It was its is dye- evldeste Watt*

ComMAttee, that the number of females in the manu-
factory at Paramatta was ISO, of whom 120 woe
nightly discharged with no means bat prostitution to
inaintainthemselves.
Mr. BATHURST said, the females were allowed
the flee use of their time, after three o'clock, to pro-
vide for their toinferts, but he protested against the
assumption that prostitution was the only means they
had of providing for themselves.
Mr. BUXTON said, the witness had been asked
how large a p.roportion of the females supported them-
selves by prostitution, and the answer was—nine out
of ten—than)
• Mr. GOULBURN said, the House Would see from
the disputes on the present motion the inconvenience
of discussing in the House the evidence.of a witness'''.
before a Committee, whose examination had not yet
been concluded--(7tear.)
Sir T. B. MARTIN said, he should not follow the
Honourable Mover into his rambles its New South
Wales,' but he should remark that regulations had
been already sent out, which there was every proba-
hility would remedy the evils complained of. The
Ministers had been blamed for sending out ships in a
bad season, and now when they were about to send
them out in Spring, the Honourable Member moved
en Address which would probably delay them till the
storm of the Autumnal Equinox. The humanity of
•the Honourable Member was stretched to an extra-
vagant extent, and if they had the full swing of their
philanthropy, they would need an Act ot. Parliament
to alter human nature-471*er).
• Mr. CLIVE, in answer to the statement of the
Honourable Mover, respecting the -separation of a
mother fiom her child, said it was done at the writ-
ten request of the mother, who wished the child to
remain with its aupt. .
Mr. MARRYAT objected to the motion on the
ground that a, hew system of regdations respecting
Botany Bay had been adopted, and that the confi-
dence of the House should be reposed on the vigi-
lance.of the Ministers as applied to the case.
, A MEMBER asked, whether the hulks could net'
be applied to the occupation of feMales ?
Mr. CLIVE said, the hulks were not yet tried suffl-
cieitlY ; and though they might succceed for Men,
they possibly might not answer for women.
Mr. BENSET shortly replied. He Wished it tole
imderstoed,.that no new regulations had been estab-
lished Air. the transport ships, except those wflich
existed at die time of the gross disorders in that ship
which he hid- mentioned",_,• all they had no* to de-
. ..
.pend on, in addition; was the character of ait'indivt%
dual. • Vie general system of prostitution had pre-
vailed in 'aiship" sent Out under 'precisely the same ot-
,,:lqs •at the present. As to the prostitution of females
,•..
at Paraniitur; he should read the answers before the
Committee. :'f he witness was asked, whether the
-had'-ether means of getting money but by
prostitution?—He said he was not aware of any.
Now without money they could not get lodgings or
for these were not provided for them. It
Was said that the women had the same means of te-
tt:ming to England as men ; that 20 or £5O would
pay their Passage; and that the women had the same
means of saving as the men. But the witness nega-
tived this idea, and said the women had not the same
scope for saving. There were numerous instances in
which persons, who had families in England, could
not return (and all who had not homes in the colony
wished to return,) except by prostituting their per-
sons. As to the rambles to New South Wales," all
the Honourable Member had called them, he was net
ashamed of them, and he was satisfied that the Mem.
hers of the House, with whom he had co-operated,
nor those mere. praise-worthy persons out of the
House, who laboured in.the same cause, would not
be deterred from their, exertions by a sneer. Far too
from thinking• it necessary to have a. Bill to alter
human nature, he:should be satisfied if. he could
'rertiove the la'ws which degraded it heat).
As to the present Colony, it had not from its esta-
blishment experienced much of the tender mercies of,
the Ministers: at its first establishment it was debt!-1,
ed in the Council, whether the.Conviots should be
sent thither, or sold to the Bey of Tunis.or Tripoli
as Slaves (as Lord Auckland, one of the projectors,
had informed the world)! The first Colonists who
were sent out did not know where they were to go :
the spot was not fixed—(Nol). He referred for a
confirmation to the works of Messrs. Collins and
Hurter. A great many of those first sent out were
sentenced only for seven years, and had served out
nearly all their time. Since 1787, thousands had
perished there by disease and famine hundreds on
the passage. In one ship '2OO had died on the voyage,
and 100 ode} after they landed. This series of mal-
administration was not imputable to the present 31i-
nistry,, but it made it a duty of the House to look at
that distant Settlement with a vigilant eye.
The Motion was negatived without a division.

OXFORD FLECTIoN.
Mr. TENNYSON said, he had a petition to pre-
sent from the city (WO:ford, complaining of a breach
of the Privileges of the House by his Grace the Duke
of Marlborough. An Hon. and Learned Friend of
his (Mr. Denman), had presented a PetitiOn on this
subject, which had been decided to be an Election
Petition, and which Arad not . been prosecuted. The
present Petition varied in fraMe from the former it
complained of the breach of Privilege by the iaterfe-
rence of a Peer, in proposing a Candidate to a Body
of Electors, writing letters, and spending a large'
sam of money in his behalf. He had a second leo-
tiesn from other persons, stating the facts more' at
large, and a third from the Mayor and other Magis-'
trates, stating their conviction of the truth of tfiesrate-
Ment. The Petitioners offered to establish the truth
of 'hat they stated ; and though he (Mr. Tennyson)
could not undertake to share their responsibility, he
had no doubt; from thitir respectability, that they
wets convinced of the dila' of wh'at they'stated. It
would, however, afford slim irifiriite otisfactirin) if it
could be proved that they were Mistaken, as the name
of the Nobleman accused was connected with the
proudest recollections of Englishmen. Ile, however;
urged on' the House the necessity of a minute itiquiry,
and avindicatirtg, if the facts'were proved, by a de-
cisive step, the privileges an which their dignity and
the freedom of the country depended. He moved that
Petition be brought up.
Mr. B. BATHURST thought that the question
bbyy this Petition could not be entered.into
:ar'lletainfringing the course prescribed by the law
with respect to Election Petitions: • A Petition upon
telitali abject was' presented some time ago, isid

probably from the same gentleman who subscribed
that under consideration. it was open to the former
Petitioners to have their case referred to an Election
Committee, in the usual way, according to the Gren-
ville Actag But this these Gentlemen declined to do;
and, after the time for receiving Eieciien Petitions
had elapsed, he could not see that it was competent
to the House to enter into the subject now. It was
to be remembered, that had the former Petition been
referred to an Election Committee, the witnesses
would have been' examined upon oath ; whereas were
this question-of privilege taken up by the HOuse itself,
these witnesses would not be under such obligation.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW observed, that,*there
nothing before the House to justify the conciusio t cf
the Right .Honourable Gentleman, that the subsc.i.
hers to the present. Petition were those from whom
the former Petition emanated ; and argued, that
from therejection of the former Petition, or the aban-
donment of that Petition by the Petitioners them-
selves, it did not follow that other Gentlemen should
be Precluded from complaining of a breach of pri7l-
- ; and in this. case the breaCh was alleged to be
of the grossest nature. It was the duty of the House,
in his opinion, to examine this complaint, not with
any view to the angry discusion which the Right
Honourable Gentleman deprecated; but in order that,
if the Duke of Marlborough should' appear, upea
'inquiry, to have been guilty of the improper conduct
Imputed to him, the House might cone to an appro-
ptiate resolution, condemnatory of such corruption,
and also pass an Address, requiring the prosecution
of his Grace by his Majesty's Attorney-General. The
House ought,' indeed, in this case, to follow the pre-
cedent in the reign of Queen Anne, when Sir Joha
Parkington complained of a breach of privilege on
the part of the Bishop of Worcester, in using undue
influence at an Election for the 'City. But as this
case was of great importance, he thought that time.
should be afforded for its further consideration, and.
therefore he moved an adjournment of the debate N.
until the 21st instant.

Mr. B. BATHURST and Mr. C. W. WYNN spoke
against the Petition, conceiving that the House could.
not enter into the investigation of its statements with •
out departing from the course settled by law; while,
if the breach of privilege were made out, it would
then appear that there• were Members in that House
who 'ought not to be there. • But to this no remedy
could now be applied, and therefore nothing but the
punishment of an individual could be-attained thrt.ugh
this Petition, while the House would be left withoat
any redress for.that of which there reason
to complain. The Duke of Marlborough was charged
by the Petitioners with directly interfering in the late
Election for Oxford, with distributing money, a:id
using other corrupt means to procure the return of
his favourite Candidate. 1:o* if those charges were
unfounded, why did not the former Petitioners, by
whom also they were advanced, resort to legal mca.l;
of obtaining redress through an Election Committ?
But this those parties did not choose to do. and :hcr^
was no reason whrthey should now be let in to malc.!
out their case. Such a proceeding would indeed be
illegal, and tend to the establishment of, a most in-
convenient precedent, and therefore those Honour-.
able Gentlemen felt themselves bound to oppose tee

•
•
proposition..
Mr-DEN AN thought it an extraordinary doc-
trine that the present Petitioners should not he al-
lowed to establish their charge of a breach of the
privileges of that House, because former Petitionefs,
did not think proper to follow up the same charge.
Dut the fact was, that the former Petitioners clecli:led
to prosecute their Petition; because they were not dis-
posed to incur, or able to defray, the expense of an
Inquiry before an Election Committee, the result a
which might be the return of a Gentleman; about
whom the Petitioners felt no interest. It also appeared,
that some dd itiona 1 tarts, as to the breach of privi-
lege complained of, had been discovered since the
former Petition was aband-neil. Upon what gourd
then could the present l'etitkm be rejected, unle-s it
were meant th:tt no breach of the privileges of that
House *hvuld be inves:iga:ed by the House
%Vas it to t,e undetstyad that the ipterference of I
Peer at an election, Gr any otNeC leiolation of the pri.
vileges of that Howe with re7ard t 0 an election, •
' cou:d Le taken cognizance of only before an Election
Committee.

*.‘ ; .

_ .
Mr. GOULBURN said, that the Learned Gen!le—
man had misumkrstood the real question undercon-
sideration. The question was not whether the House
would investigate a clrirge with regard to breach of
privile,r, but whether it would act according to la*
by refusing investigation upon such a subject in any
other fin ni than that which the law prescribed. For
sake of the character of the House, and the consis-
tency of its proceedings- it became necessary to dis-
countenance a Petition Of this nature.

The SPEAKER thowylit it right to describe the
state of the case. The firmer Petition complained
of a breach of privilege; and every Petition present-
ed to that House complaining of improper conduct
or undue return at an election, involved the charge
of a 'breach of privilege.. The .only question as to the
Petition. alluded to, was, whether the charge of an
undue return complained of in that Petition was not
a subject for legitiMate discussion before an Electica
Committee? and upon this question the House de-
cided in the affirmative, but the parties declined to.
prosecute their Petition. .
• The House divided on the Motion for Adjourn-
ment—Ayes 11—Noes 33—Majority 22.
• After sonic desultory conversation, in which Mr.
BMW U RST and Sir 110ERRT. WILSON LOA a part,
The CHANCELLOR of • the EXCIIEQUER
observed, that If this Petition were received, an el-
couravement would be held out to persons objecting
~,
to the return of certain Members to lie by until the
time for presenting Election Petitions bad expired,
and then come forward, perhaps, to scatter calumdes,
and to seek an opportunity of supporting those Ca...
lumnies by evidence not upon an oath.
Mr. C. W. WYNN said, that if such a Petition
were received and investigated by the House, it
would be.as well at once to-repeal the Grenville Att,
and to make the House itself again the tribunal for.
deciding u_pon Election cases. The case of the
Bishop of Worcester alluded to in the course cf the
discussion, took place it would be recollected before
the .Grenville Act was passed, and the. proceedings
against that• Prelate were the consequence of a ccf.i.
int. preferred by a Member of that 11,
Mr. TEN NYSON expressed his opi-'
rititioa were rejected, it would 'be

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