Star.
London, England, 1829-03-28 00:00:00

,tronfly object to the assumption that this is a political
question, if it is meant to be urged that it is exclusively
such ; for wefe it such, he never should have opposed
,the al miesion of his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects
to the full rights of eliisens. Etymology and common
sense tell us chit the politics of *ante are constikal,
of whatever makes its weal of its woe. That religion
is the source and root of all this matter appears even
from every provision of the present Bill, which turns
upon nothing else ; and the whole question has no other
source than the divisions in religion of large classes of
the subjects of the State. In looking to what has passed
he (Sir G. Rose) admitted that it was but with 'toe
much truth that the Right Honourable Secretary bed
stated his surprise that, if the English Protestant
Church and State took so deep an interest in the supr
port of the Protestant cause, they made no efforts tp
introduce the Gospel into Ireland. He (Sir G. Rose)
considered such a reproach was bat too well founded.
The Reformation found the English in Ireland and the
Irish divided in territory, language, feelings, and in.
terests, having religion alone in common; but the Ito•
formed en, embraced by the English alone, raised a
more insurmountable wall of separation than had ever
before existed; and it was marvellous that the polite
Elizabeth and her able Ministers, if not for the sake of
religion, at any rate in sound policy, had not made
every possible effort to abate that evil; that a math
part of the men and of the money employed by her to
support the Protestant cause in Holland and in France
would have secured the state of England far more use
fully in conveying the Reformation to the Irish, than
any measures for the weal and safety of the State that
could be desired; that now, however, this cause of re-
proach was done away with, since of late years various
Societies, some under the sanction of the Government,
have been, in various shapes and systems, making great
exertions for the promotion of scriptural knowledge in
Ireland. In speaking of the Roman Catholic subjects
of the King, it would cost him nothing to do it in per.
feet temper and good will any more than to bring those''
feelings to bear on the whole of the question. They had
sought eagerly, and at times, it appeared, illegally, theis
objects ; but were encouraged so to do when not re-
pressed, and the greatness of the object before them ac-
counted for the vehemence of the pursuit. In speaking.
of their Church, he wished to omit all avoidable harsh.
ness of expression; he bad the consolation to know he
could not speak as ill of it as it does of that to which
he belongs; but that there was a great peculiarity in its
doctrines which it was important to rematk. You can-
not treat them as other Dissenters from our Church,
since the far greater part of the Dissenters are sepa-
rated from us tar more by church discipline than doc-
trine, in which the difference from those of our Church
iu teg-rd to the largest sects cannot be practically as-
sated to exist; but with regatd to the Roman Catholics
the case is one of extreme heresy, which has very re-
markable features.ln other heresies the origin is purely
theological, and nowise affects the relation of the P. iest-
hood to the state. It exists in eironeaus opinions in'
theology, but which nowise influence the relation of the
priesthood entertaining them to the public; whereas in
the Church of Rome there is no one tenet which has
not its origin in its views of forming a priesthood sepa•
rated as much as possible trom the mass of the people,
and vested in the overpowering authority. It is clear
that in the early ages of Christianity the priesthood,
constituting a numerous and powerful body, possessing
all the learning of the State, and in possession of the
spiritual intete.ts of the people, succumbed under the
temptation to' embody a series of doctrines, which it
auAmentrd successively, such as the Pope's infallibility,
the worship I f saints, the celibacy of the priesthood,
absolution, auricular confession, &c.; all tending to
create a priesthood apart with unrivalled authority ;
and this being so, every interest, both personal and
professional, is wrapt up in the maintenance of the
system, obich must be either maintained entire, or
pedal. There can be no measure for the systematic
and energetic support which the whole body of the
Roman Catholic clergy must give to the mailite-
nince and extension of their Church, and thus, in
Ireland, e people berg detached from their Sovereign
and dial Nobles by a dissimilarity of faith of an ex -
treme nature, the Irish Roman Catholic people are
thrown wholly into the arms of their priests for c.iunsel,
guidance, and protection; and hence arises their exor •
bitant power, the action of which in the state of the
Irish Protestant Church is obvious. T: ey have not a
jester, but a stronger, claim to its temporalities than
' the gratuitous concessions now made. Those tempo-
ralities were theirs; they were, in their view, unjustly
dispossessed of them by heretics for heretical purposes,
and to maintain a few Pastors of slender flocks; whilst
their own have to contribute to that heretical Church,
as well as to support them. But we are told, if the
Roman Catholics, in bad faith, shall rush down on the
Church of Ireland, the Government, strong in a good
cause, will have no difficulty in repelling the invasion.
But let us consider that its power must come from the
Parliament and the people; and how will the case
stand with both? It has been shown by others with
what force a body such as the lush Roman Catholics
will be in Parliament, will act by uniformly hold-
ing together in a common view; that such a squadron,
keeping apart flout the battle till the ranks of the
combatants are ragged and thin, will inspire awe
and mistrust and fear on all sides, and give the victory
where they please; and we shall have not alone to fear
those • Ito would bear the shamrocks in their helmets
as voices heard in the grave, and hereby give intimation
that they would be j .fined by those who would wear
the rose and the thistle as their cognizances. That as
to the a urch of Rome, however, he considered it as a
far more dangerous church than it was before the French
revolution, when the leading Governments of Europe
entertained feelings m'.re or less of aversion to it. It
has less atheism and infidelity in its members than it
had. R duced in temporalities, it has less temptations
to vice and splendour; it is hardened by adversity, and
excited by what it has undergone to increased exertion.
Witness its but too successful labours in the Turkish
dominions to obtain the aid of the Mahornetan against
the missionaties of other churches. It has the full sup.
pot tut the Roman Catholic Powers. The Hon. Member
stated that he had recent information, of indisputable
ao.t!omi what when the news of the King's Speech
reached Rome an ecclesiastic of high authority and con-
sideration there exclaimed," Ours was always the univer-
-1.1 church; it will now be teen to be the universally tri-
umphant church; and his correspondent believed, in
opposition to an.opinion entertained by many, that the
art, vigour, and consistency displayed by the leading
risen of that church in furtherance of their object in en-
slaving she other churches, must ultimately be victorious.
Then take a' lesson from the recent history of the Je-
suits. The Court of Rome, in or about I ISO, was com-
pelled by the Catholic Powers to annihilate the Jesuits
by a Bull. They took refuge in Russia, and, in sixty
yeasts, were supported in u en and money by Roman
Vatholie Europe, which Could not possibly have hap-
' bad It not been wit&the privity of that Court of
however,' in the :exercise of its hsfalli-
base ostrossihly destroyed thorn: In 3819 they

lened

were driven from Russsia, in consequence of their Fro-
salytiaing their pupils to the Church of 4)ewne, and se-
turned Into:. Roman Catholic Europe, in'trotb,,reliels*to
the whole" -power If the paipac,f, had ngt tiresprch
ofAenine acted wit the vent,* dupWlSek aV,lfele
instritoly re-established. HQ,iSiripeorge Rote l( afd in ;
Ili*. a distinguished Roden Caere:the stalemate, Mi-
Muer of a Roman Catholic State, express great anxiety
as to what the Congress of Vienna would do respecting
the Jesuits, and he predicted that if they did nothing, in
a few years they would convulse Europe. The Congress
left the matter untouched, and this prediction was
nearly verified in them this fast year, in the et isis of the
French Government, brought on entirely by that order.
As to the professed securities, he (Sir G. Rose) said it
was idle to consider them as sock—when you gave to
men concessions beyond their utmost hopes, the reten-
tion of a couple of offices, which are under the entire
influence of one who may be a Roman Catholic, and
the re-enactment of laws, existing long since in sub.
stance, against Roman Catholic religious ord. rs; that,
in the absence of all other securities whatever, some
limiting of the spiritual influence of the Court *of
Rome on his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects
might at least have been looked for. It may be said
than, during about one hundred and fifty years, we did
well enough without any check on it ; bu , in reply, it
is so to he observed, that we knew not, during th.t
time, that the emit of Rome had given the nomination
to every Roman Catholic dignitary in the Chinch to
the Pretender's family; and precautions formerly less
necessary became imperatively such when the Roman
Catholics are admitted into Parliament, and nearly all
the highest offices in the St de; that if any one recurred
to the example of the most eminent men of modern
times, the great King of Russia and Napoleon Motu.
pat te, the ine a Protestant, the other a Roman Catho-
lic—we find the former uniformly naming distinctly
the succeesion to every Popish Bishoptick in his domi-
nions; and Bonaparte declaring, in 1809, that the spi-
ritual influence of a lorciAn poten I
ta e (the Pope) was
inconsistent w th the independence of France, and the :
dignity and safety of his throne, and yet that influence
we left uncontroulled. The Honourable Gentleman I
said, that a few weeks hick he had stated that on the!
entrance of Roman Catholic Members into the Legis-
lature it would lose its Protestant character, since,where
the religious differences ate so extreme, no religious
question could possibly be agitated without consulting
the Hou e; but instead of Protestant be ooght to have
said its Christian character, since even the mention of
religion must be banished from its deliberations; and
that this would he bit for most in the Upper House,
where the Bishops sit on the part of our church. and
who may be et countered there by Dignitaries of ti e
C stitch of R .me, Bishops and Cardinals, members of
noble Roman Catholic lama s, who may sir-creel to
Peerages by the demise of their relations, and whose
right to sit in the Mimeo! Lords would be unimpeach •
able. Tr.e 811 in progress left to him no hing but the
gloomiest foreboisip,s of the I u.nre fser tunes of the Church
and of the State ; bur that no prophet ever so ardently
desired the accomplishment of his peed scions as lie did
the frustration of tic e forebodings.
Colonel TRENCH said much respect was due to the
opinions of those who conscientiously opposed the Ro-
man Catholic Claims, and though he might be sup-
posed, irom the line he tor meily pursued, to be under
some obligation to continue Lis opposition to tho e
Claims, yet he now felt that such changes had taken
place as would make it more his duty to vote for con.
cession than to offer it any resistance. No one acquainted
with the state of Ireland would doubt that a population
uneducated, enthusiastic, blindly submissive to their
Priests, could no longer be kept in their present condi-
tion—no one could doubt that were such a sts.te of
things to contiaue, the bond► which held society tom
Cher would be snapt asunder. In the years 1823, 1824,
and 1825, preparations had been made for pl•cing mar-
ter, upon a more satisfactory footing ; but he regretted
to say that the measures of that period had not been
followed up with all the energy the occasion demanded.
From that period to the present the Roman Catholic
Association exercised the most despotic sway, not only
over Catholics, but by intimidation over Protestants ;
accordingly self defence gave rise to what were called
the Brunswick Clubs; all this while the Government
stood by and let the Association usurp its functions.—
Under circumstances such a, these, he • as not ashamed
to acknowledge that his opinions had undergone a
change. The Hon. Member for Louth had described
the three modes by which the question could be settled
at the present moment. In 1823 something better might
have been done—a line might have been drawn around
the Throne, the Cabinet. and the Parliamment, with
such limitations, probably concession, of all outside,
that might unobjectionably be made. However. all hope
of any thing of that sort • as now at an end. They had
but a choice of difficulties—and they would then much
better employ themselves in choosing between those
difficulties than in wasting time in an inqui• y as to their
cause. They were now :educed to this—rich ,r they
must proceed by conciliation or by creicion. The latter
, of these was not to be thought of—for, though the Ca:
tholics could in a Vrl y shot t space of tine he effectually
subdued, yet no man would desire to see that effected by
means so dreadful as those of civil war.

Mr. BRADSHAW was always of opinion that sooner
or later the Catholic question must be carried, but he
had resolved never to vote for it until it should be
brought forward by the existing Government. As a
measure of the administration then he had no objection
to support it. With respect to the other measure which
proved an adjunct to it, he thought it a good measure in
itself, and would sui p rt it, even though it bad no coo-
nesion with the Relief Bill.
Mr. O'NEILL said, that an Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site bad endeavoured to maintain the position that the
question of how they got into the dilemma was of no
importance, the only thing they had to consider was how
to get out of it. That might be a very convenient doe.
trine for public men, but it:was in his opinion very far
from sound. A Right Hon. Gentleman told them in the
speech with which he introduced the present measure,
that he came down to them clothed with all the just
authority of a Minister of the Crown. That appeared
to him (Mr. O'Neill) a most auspicious commencement.
and it was one from which be augured well—it was one
which led him to hope that he could give the Pleasure
his support ; but how inconsistent were the declarations
of that Right Hon. Gentleman ? He told the House
that he came down to that House clothed with the just
authority of a Minister of the Crown, and yet he had not
power to pet down the Catholic Association. He talked
to them of the security which the disfranchisement of''
the forty shilling freeholders might afford. Indeed,
if the q.ialification had been raised to 201. it might
have proved of some service, but a HA qualification
afforded no secut ity. He would ask any one rho read
or heard that speech, whether it contained one new
argument in favour of Roman Catholic Claims except
what was derived from the Clare Election and the for.
minion of Bitanswick Clubs? The Right Honourable
Gentlemen had asked them what was to be done ? It
was for him to tell them what he bad dose, or what he

-could do; it was fog him to show that there vas .n.
medium between absolute exclusion on the one haw%
and unlimited conctss;on on the other. To which wee.
they to impute the dilemma in which they then stood„
,unless to the policy of that Right Honourable Geed,.
man and his friends? They had been told that, it
`the e, ent of a war, we should lose Ireland—(Hear),..
To that he replied. that if ;bey held Itelaod b.y
.ba
slender a tie as such an auction would seem ro
warrant, the sooner they pet the matter to issue
the better. It had been very truly said that the present
would leave aruthsat,frilil:.emi
eorreegimuiperredt,anthe
Bill, when passed,
Catholic Question to be detetmined. He considered
that, as the Constitution of this country was purely pm,
testant, the only real security which could be give„ to
it was, that the offices under the Quarts should be filhd
by persons of the Protestant faith poly. He conceived
that the Constitution, as it had hitherto oersted, was the
only check which had been gives.to the Papal rower
and be thought that the rights which had been enjoyed
under that Constitution ought not now to be been.
He bad been long and intimately counseled with mew
Catholics, for hoot he bad a sincere regard; but se
the same time he could not help feeling that the ad•
vancement of their ckaims,would be injurious to the Pros
testant establishment, and torsi that ground it was drat
he gave his decided opposition to the nreasitre now
before the House. During the discussion upon chit
sibtsahtjetchtehue hmaed
generosity imputedmwotoivuelds to
ben
to
hmtcantsj..irn,dtnet.:leh:te,ei hfseapednads
He flattered himself that the Hougseavemuhsits sueencituhaalit6ficte
had been actuated by none other
cdoi
snsfscnite at
ot i stashes
measure;
whenbut
if
al,ep
did not know that he could give a greater than the cir-
cumstance of his having been al says numb-red among
lime who constituted the minority in all the divisions
which had taken place during the discussion of a mea-
sure browht forward under the immediate sanction of
Iri. Majesty's Ministers.
Mr.GREEN expressed his conviction that the mea-
sure of Emancipation, if granted, would cause the
mediate destruction of the Protestant Church of Ireland;
a that the destrgctian of that Church would inevita-
bly lead to the destruction of the Elablist e I Church
of Ertg'and. Under this conviction he had de ermined
to give his decided opposition to the measure now it
progress through the Home. He apologia d to the
House for having detained them upon this subject; but,
'taming before them as he did, as the representative of
a very large body of people, he felt that it would be
the most straight-forward and suably course to come
forward to the House, and state what his opinion :pally
was. Having done so he had only to thank the House
for the attention which had been afforded him.
Dlr. EWA Kr expressed his deter:llllmi= to support the
Admiral EVANS rated his decided opposition to
the measure of Emancipation ; and in a nautical mere-
phor, which occasioned much laughter in the House,
described the present situation of the Constituti n. The
Constitution, he thought, was now fairly at sea, hut he
could nut congratulate its commander either upon his
crew or his cargo. The former was a compound of
almost all descriptions; and of the layer much had
proved so troublesome that it had been found necessary
to throw it overboard. Such had been the late of the
Protestant ascendancy and of the 40s. franchise. But
although he did not think that the navigation of the
vessel had fallen into very good hands, yet he did not
know that she could be considered to be in any home.
diate danger of sinking, as a great many rats bad re-
cently flocked on board her—(Loud laughter, and et ies
of "Hear.") He should not be much surprised, how-
ever, to hear that she would shortly be for sale, as he
understood the commander was about to hoist a Moons
at the mast head.
Mr. CRIPPS expressed Ids (*position to the raserare.

The Marquis of BLANDFORD—As the present is
possibly the last opportunity I may avail myself of for
addressing you, Sir, upon this question, now presented
for our consideration in its amended form, and as, ac.
cording to my views and convictions, the measures pro.
posed by this Bill ate not only unconstitutional in prin-
ciple, and fraught with danger to the religion, the
throne, and the peace of the country, but are also most
iniquitous as they affect the rights and the liberties,
and the interests of the Protestant community. I am de-
sirous, Sir, in every few words, of recording my repro.
bation of them. Sir, this Bill seems to me to sweep away
all existing safeguards, and substituting nothing in lieu
thereof; for it would be ridiculous to call half a dozen
pecuniary fines safeguards. It ui- conditionally surrenders
those securities we at present possess. In former times,
when measures of concession and conciliation have been
brought before this House, some provisions have bees
introduced for the protection of the country against
Papal encroachments and usurpation. It was not until
these measures were introduced by an intimidated Goi,
vernment that they were stripped of all securities. As
soon at those who once pleaded for the Protestant cause
took these measures in hand, from enemies to all concew
lion they became the advocates of universal concessive;
instead of being the advisers of a guarded indulgence,
they have thought St to yield every thing and to prim
test nothing. A Right Honourable Gentleman who
has favoured the public with the result of his very able
exertions in an endeavour to suggest Protestant secs-
skies. has coogratulated this House that the pivot
measure is not clogged by any such " incumbances."
It may appear to me presumptuous to so do. but Insert
take leave to remind that Right Honourable Gentle-
man and the House, that the incumbrances we at pre.
sent enjoy are the result of dearly bought ezperientet,
that they are incumbrances which the best and wisest
of our statesmen have ever deemed to be essential; that
they are incumbrances in which Whig and Tory, High
Church and Low Church, have all concurred ; incunw
brances, not devised in the spirit of theory—not (like
many of the measures introduced into this House) the
mere creatures of a questionable expediency—but re.

medial, protecting, preventive enactments—permanent
remedies provided against permanent evils--plain pray
tical provisions of British law against the avowed pia
ciples and practices of the Ronstsh Church—
Nape vials iridium, prow injuris &catkin, eripiebaos.
But, Sir, where, I demand, where do we find in this Bil
any thing like a substitute or compensation for the loss,
or rather for the robbery, of our existing safeguards?
Where do we find in this Bill that full and permitted
security for those institutions which his Majesty has told
us it is his duty and his determination to preserve
inviolate? In whet mode is it pretended that this
Bill can controul that mighty mass, that mysteries
body, the Roman Catholic church ? We look in vain for
a provision which may check or content its spirit of do'
mination, its lust of power. Neither can it be said thetas
enemy has crouched to obtain power; be has demanded
it, and he has forced what be has demanded frail
hands tio feeble to resist him; and, proud of his cow
quest, he will speedily be seen applying his irresistibill
energies to new projects, and to the extortion of Deo
Concessions. Elir, I say then, that not only has his M.
jesty been belied by his confidential servants, but babel
been duped and deceived by evil Coundlors.—by me.
rl ho seem to have arrayed themselves with the emirs