Star.
London, England, 1820-06-03 00:00:00

the funds alluded to, respecting which there existed
considerable difference of opinion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.de-
precated the observations made by the Hon. Member
(Mr. Creevey) respecting 'a Nobleman who had re-
signed an office secured to him by every obligation
pt justice and of right. It was a magnificent act,
which ought to call forth the admiration not only
of England, but of the world—(Cheers).—But it
appeared. that the lion. Member took credit to him-
self for forcing two Noblemen to a 'resignation by
the cogency and weight which his arguments had
with the Public. This conduct he could not help
thinking both unfair and uncandid on the part of
the Hon. Member, and certainly it**as such as i•onhil
be no inducement to others, who held situations, to
follow the example of the distinguished individual
who had so nobly relinquished his just rights, from
his magnanimous regard to the public interest. But
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could assure
the Hon. Member, that the arguments he had offered
on a former occasion, had had no influence whUt-
ever with the Nobleman in question; nor was it
likely that what he had said to-night would stimu-
late the patriotism of any person who might be other-
wise disposed to make a generous sacrifice of a si-
milar nature. He did not envy the Hon. Member
his triumph over the feelings of such a man as the
Marquis of Camden—a man who would go down
to the admiration and gratitude of posterity. The
Right lion. Gentleman then adverted briefly to the
subject of the ,PA per cents. contending that they
were, from established usage,
.disposable at the will
of the Crown—(Hear).
Mr. BENNETT maintained, that the Act of Par-
liament was decisive on the subject, as it required
the application of the funds to a particular purpose.
Ile then entered into a short detail of their history,
and said that a principle had been established with
regard to them from which there could be no de-
parture. it was not worth considering what were
the motives which caused the immense sum of
£20,000 a-year, accruing from each of the Teller-
ships of the Exchequer, to be given up ; but it was
quite certain that the two Noblemen who held the
office, had had no thought of relinquishing a single
shilling till the year after the motion was introduced
upon the question. There was then an universal
sentiment of disgust excited, and it was right that
they had been made to disgorge the contents of the
public purse—(Cheers).
Lord CASTLEREAGH expressed his persuasion
that the House and the country would concur in opi-
nion with him, that if there was any one course which
more than another could discourage noble and dis-
interested actions, it was the nature of the remarks
which had been made by the two Hon. Gentlemen
on the conduct of the Noble Lords in question, to
one of whom the thanks of Parliament had been
voted, and the attempt thus made to blast the honour
of the action, and to infuse bitterness into feelings
that ought to meet with universal respect. The emo-
luments which had devolved on the Noble Marquis
from his father, had become much more valuable
than they were when received by the former in cons.
pensation for the sacrifice made by him. What did
it cost the Ibn. Gentlemen to make the remarks
which they had thought proper to make? But what
had it cost the Noble Marquis to make the sacrifice
which be had made? If the principle on which the
Hon. Gentlemen had proceeded were pushed, great
estates would, perhaps, be found in the possession .of
many Noble individuals, whose services to the Stator
were by no means so intelligible as those of the
Noble Lords in question. And yet to those Noble
individuals it was not made matter of taunt and re-
proach, that they did not restore that which they had
obtained. He thought it impossible that the two
Hon. Gentlemen who had used the language to which
he had adverted, could go home and reflect with sa-
tisfaction on their conduct.
After a few words from Mr. LOCKHART, Mr. W.
SMITH, and Mr. GIPPS, the Motion was agreed to.
The following sums were then proposed, and voted
without further discussion :
For the unprovided Expenses of the Ordnance,
in 1818 £50,804 19 2
Fur the unprovided Expenses of the Ordnance,

in 1819
Fur the Expenses of Redaction 6,00u 0 0
For the Expenses of the Ordnance in Ireland... 111,986 2 6
For Allowances to Superannuated, Retired, and
Half-pay Officers, to Officers for good services,
to Superannuated Men, also for Pensions to
Widows and Children of deceased Olken, &c. 302,996 1 11
For broken Periods of unprovided Sttperannua-
dons and Allowances 18,833 18 LI
For Superannuation and Allowances to Civil
Officers of the Ordnance 33,826 13 7
For broken Periods of unprovided Satperannua-
dons and Allowances to Civil Officers of the
Ordnance 2,374 12 11
For Retired Officers of the late Irish Artillery
and Engineers, and Pensions to Widows ». 11,754 3 9
For Superannuation', and Half-pay to Civil Of-
ficers of the Irish Ordnance, Pensions to

down, &c. 4,388 1 1

Lord PALMERSTON having returned to the
House, resumed the statement which was interrupted
by his indisposition. He enumerated several items
of reduction and increase, which had taken place,
under several heads of the Army Estimates. In the
office of the Commander-in-Chief, a reduction of
£5OO a-year occurred by the change of the Military
Secretary, the individual who last held that situation
having had emoluments to that amount beyond
£2OOO a-year, which was the salary of the present
Secretary. The House would remember, that seve-
ral years ago arrear accounts remained to be settled,
and that officers were appointed to arrange those
accounts. Since then, arrears to a very large amount
were paid in. In 1811, 216 accounts were settled,
and only two remained which were not disposed-of.
In 1812, 218 accounts were settled, and seven re-
mained. In 1813, 225 accounts were settled, and 12
remained. In 1814, 235 were settled, and 11 re-
mained. In 1815, 207 accounts were settled, and
seven remained. In 1816, 185 accaunts were settled,
and six remained. In 1817, 113 accounts were settled,
and 21 remained. Upon the whole, 1399 accounts
were settled, and 66 remained, on which questions
were still. depending, owing to deaths and casualties.
As far as it was possible for the Officers to settle the
Accounts, they have been settled, and of the Arrears
£7,000 had been paid into the Bank, and £61,000
had been got in from several Accountants, either by
'deductions from their salaries; or by sums paid. The
whole amount of the arrears got in was more than
sufficient to pay the expenses of the War Office in the
years mentioned. The Noble Lord hastened through

several items so rapidly, that it was impossible to
follow him. He stated that an increase of 1:00,0'30-
took place in the British Volunteer service, in con-
sdquence of the establishment of new Corps. The
present number was 25,000 Cavalry in Great Britain.
In the Irish Volunteer service there was a reduction ifs
consequence of the rule which prevailed there, that
if the Corps were not called out to exercise a certain
number of days, it ceased to exist. In the Recruiting
Establishment, there was a small increase. In the Mt- •
litary College, there was a deirease of £3,100, in
consequence of reductions in the Senior Department.
The four Professors were transferred to the Esta-
blishment at Farnham, with which in future they were
to be consolidated, as well as fifteen Officers of the
Staff. He should observe, that a more rigid examina-
tion would be gone into with respect to the qualifica-
tions of the Officers,who should in future be appointed
to the Establishment of the Royal Military College.—
'The number of Gentlemen Cadets was also reduced
from 320 to 290, and upon the whole, such reduc-
tions had taken place as would bring down the ex-
pense of that establishment to about £15,000 a year,
an expense as little as it could possibly be, if such an
establishment were to exist at all. In the Half-Pay
and Military Allowance Department there was an
increase of £49,807 on account of the additional
number of persons placed on the Half-pay and Al-
lowance List, by the reduction in the Army which
had taken place last year. In the Foreign Half-pay
there was a reduction of £4OOO by casualties. In
the In-Pension List there was an increase of £l6oo—
the Out-Pension List there was a diminution of
£85,000, in consequence of the number of Out-Pen-
sioners called into service in the Veteran Battalions.
Twenty thousand pounds remained in the hands of
the Agents, which was placed to the credit of the
votes for the year. He stated, that reduction had
also taken place in the Royal Military Asylum, and
in the Widows' Pension List. Returning to the sub-
ject of the Out-Pensioners, he thought it might be sa-
tisfactory to the House to know more particulars, con-
nected with their return to service. The total number of
Out-Pensioners, who were examined, was 15,026.—
Of these, 11,253 were deemed to be fit for service on
the first examination; 1862 had sent excuses on ac-
count of wounds and other disabilities, which were
considered sufficient. Upon a second examination,
the number of Pensioners fit for service was reduced
to 8827 ; and he mentioned these circumstances, be-
cause he was aware that an unjust impression existed
with respect to these men. They came forward with
the greatest cheerfulness, and many of them expressed
their gratitude for being restored to a sitbation of
active service. The whole expense of the Battalions
formed on that occasion was £360,000, which was
the increased charge. But from this should be de-
ducted the £85,000 saved in Pensions, £35,000 saved
in the pay of Retired Officers, who were placed on
active service in the Veteran Battalions, and £12,000
saved in the Half-pay List on the same account.—
These savings, amounting to £132,000, should be
deducted from the £360,000, and it would thus ap-
pear that the real increased expense was no more
than £228,000. And from this total a further re-
duction was to be made, as clothing which bad been
already in the stores was made available on the (se
casion, by which there was a saving so as to reduce
the total to £224,000. He did not now mean to go
into any argument to prove the expediency of the
determination of his Majesty's Ministers to raise these
Battalions. The motives of the measure were noto-
rious, and were justified by the events which had
taken place since the 16th of August last—(Hear,
hear).—lf those events did not satisfy Gentlemen as
to the propriety of that measure, no eloquence which
he or any other Member could use would convince
them. The Noble Lord concluded with proposing a
Vote of £3,425,300. 18s. 3d. for his Majesty's Land
Forces, consisting of 92,224 men, including Officers
and Non-commissioned Officers, exclusive of the In-
dia service.
Lord NUGENT objected generally to the conti-
nuance of such an immense military establishment in
time of peace, and under the distressed circumstances
of the country. It was defended, indeed, upon the
ground of discontent, but, according to that argu-
ment, it was easy to create a circle which would go
on for ever increasing the military establishment.—
The discontent arose from distress—distress from
presiure. Nov, every addition to the standing army,
increased the pressure on the country, the pressure
produced fresh discontent, and thus the increase of
the army would only go to render new additions to
it necessary. It was, in cinch, a race between dis-
affection on the one hand,: and military force on the
other; and, for his part, lie feared equally the final
triumph of either. He wished the Noble Lord oppo-
site would inform him whether it was intended, as had

been rumoured, to call out the Militia in August
next? I-1; understood that ballots were going on in
the country with that view. He wished also to know
lhow far the Yeomanry Cavalry were increased from
last year? He was aware that the present number was
twenty-five thousand.
Mr. C. F. PALMER made a few observations upon
the uselessness of the Driver Corps. He stated, that
the horses belonging to that corps were seldom used
in the public service, and that in Wales they had often
been seen harnessed to private carriages and waggons.
Mr. HUME thought a Committee should be ap-
pointed, to inquire into the number and discipline of,
the troops. The number of the Guards had been
increased, and the expense of each man was equal
to £l4O yearly. The expense of building the new
Military College could have supported that at Mar-
low. By the Estimate it appeared that the expense
of the Colonial Establishments was nearly equal to
that of Great Britain; though much of it might and
ought to be defrayed by themselves. Up to 1814.,
the pay of Commander-in-Chief had been only £9
per day, but it was now £lB ss. 9d. The reason
then given for the increase, viz. the increase of duty,
called at the present time for a diminution. The
expense of the Staff at head-quarters was £30,033,
and a reduction ought to commence there. The
salary of the Judge Advocate had been raised, on
account of the increase of duty, from £2,040 to
£5,000. As the additional duty had ceased, the
salary should be reduced to its former amount.—
Out of £14,203 charged for Malta and the lonian
Islands, only 0,680 was paid' by the Islands them-
selves ; though Great Britain was only bound to pay
the troops if they exceeded 3,000--£14,000 was also
paid for the expenses of the Civil Government of
the Islands. He did not wish the College at Sand.

hurst to be abolished, but the expense to be reduced.
In the course of four years only seventy-six Cadets
had received commissions r and, taking the expense
for three yeari to he £iB,ooo, the education of each
Cadet made available for the service of the country,
was £1,040. The expense of the Military Asylum
should .also be reduced in time of peace ; and, if
Officers on the half-pay were placed en full-pay
when commissions fell vacant, the half-pay would
be saved to the Public. If the Noble Lord was sin-
cere in his professions of economy, the Estimates for
next year might be reduced some hundred thousand
pounds—( Hear, hear).
Colonel DAVIES was by no means disposed to
enter the lists with the Noble Lord, upon all his
statements,. but, under favour, he wished to ask him
one or two questions. Was any arrangement made
yet as to the manner in which the Army was in fu-
ture to be furnished with medicines? A person called
the Apothecary-General, who had a patent for serving
the Army, had.lately died ; and as this patent mode
of furnishing medicine to the Army was some 50 per
cent. over that which the Ordnance, and other
branches of the service paid, he expected there would
be some reformation in it. Another question he
wished the Noble Lord to answer was—what services
the Staff Officers did in the lonian Islands, who were
under par? He understood there were no Militia
there, but if he was mistaken, he would be glad to
be corrected by the Secretary at IVar.
Lord MILTON observed, that the tirrce for MO
was 11,000 men more than that of 1519, though there
was nothing in the Estimates before the Committee
to draw their attention to the circumstance, which
he thought a little extraordinary: .
Colonel TRENCH said, that with respect to the
application of the funds of the Sandhurst Establish-
ment, he was willing to leave .hat subject in the
hands of the Committee of Education. As to the
policy of the establishment itself, he considered it of
solid advantage .to the service. The troops both
abroad and at home were more efficient and less
offensive, if instead of I,eing under the command
of raw boys, they were commanded by men of solid
attainments, grounded on professional science.—
(Hear, hear).—The gallant Officer next pronounced
an animated eulogium on the conduct of his Royal
Highness the Commander-in-Chief, and on the talents
and perseverance of that Illustrious Person, with re-
spect to the Army—(Hear).—Every soldier knew,
that to eradicate bad habits, and to implant good
ones, was a most difficult task—There was not,
however, he believed, a single individual connected
with the Army, from the great General,- who was
justly considered its right arm, to the humble soldier,
that would not be ready to offer their testimony of
esteem for his conduct—(Hear, hear).—When the
very arduous duty of his situation was considered,
the pay would not appear disproportionate to the la-
bour(Hear, hear).—As to the system of education
pursued at Sandhurst, it appeared to his mind unex-
ceptionable. The young Gentlemen were educated
in mathematics, the modern languages, and ancient
and modern history ; they were taught to value the
genuine principles of British liberty; the daily news-
papers were allowed them, on the contents of which
they were at perfect freedom to indulge in every ob-
servation they thought fit, and yet this_ was an In-
stitution which was called a nursery to tear up
Janixaries for future despots!—, Hear, hear).—
He looked also to the Institution as a monument of
national gratitude erected to those heroe., vho had
fallen in the service of their country—who had ex-
alted the glory of the British name, and ensured the
security of the British empire—(Hear, hear).—He
could quote more than one instance o- i bi ave sol-
dier dying on the field of battle, and, while drawing
his latest breath, reflecting with pleasure that this In-
' stitution was open to receive his children ! (Hear).—
' To those who thought that the children of soldiers
who had thus fallen should be provided fCir, it would
be pleasing to learn, that from nine hundred to one
thousand had been educated in this Institution since
its establishment. It %( as. not ton much to say, that
they had been rescued from vice and ignorance. He
looked upon them as the children iof the Nation, and
trusted that their welfare would never be nzglected
by their country—(Hear, hear).—.The Cadets who
had left the College had served their country faith-
fully, and if ever the occasion should arrive, they
would prove like arms in the hands of a giant! (hear).
Mr. BENNETT was induced to make an observa-
tion upon the Opthalmic Institution, in consequence
of the praise with which the Secretary of War spoke
of the mode in which patients were treated there.—
He had in his hand a Report made under the sanction
of the Commander-in-Chief, by Doctor Sir James
M'Gregor, and Surgeon Franklin, entirely at issue
with the statement of the Noble Lord, but to which,
from the circumstance of its being made by medical
met, and the subject being diseases of the eye, he gave
more credit than to the Noble Lord's statement. He
was aware that a clamour was raised of a conspiracy
being on foot in the profession, against Sir William
Adams,,but it did not follow that because these Gen-
tlemen did not applaud his mode of treating patients,
that they, therefore, conspired against him. There
were other Gentlemen concerned in the inquiry be-
sides medical men. It was not to the expense of
the Establishment he objected, for that was but
trifling, but the question was, whether it was likely
to do any good? The abstract of the cases which
came from it, did not speak much in favour of it.—
Taking one abstract, he obierved, that fifteen .pa-
tients -had been examined, of whom six were im-
proved, six remained in the same state, two said they
felt better, and one had his right eye put out, though
by the operation the other was improved—(A lavii.)
It was the recommendation of the Commander-in-
Chief, that no operation should be performed upon
a soldier, • unless there was a consultation of more
than two Surgeons upon the case. He hoped the
Noble Lord would see that his order was attended
to. It vvas stated by Dr. M.Gregor and Dr. Frank-
lin, that a number of pet-sons had deserted from the
establishment. It was, indeed, very natural that men
having seen other persons' eyes pia out before their
faces, should run away whilst they sere yet Ale to
preserve their own !
Mr. GOULBURN, in answer to what had been
asked respecting the duty of the Staff in the lonian
Islands, stated, that there-was a Militia there, and
that the Officers of the Staff were regularly engaged
in looking after their discipline. Ile enured into,
calculation to shew that, with regard to the Colonies,
there was a saving since last year of A:11,00Q.