Star.
London, England, 1821-04-18 00:00:00

BOXING.

Young Drown and Ilershant fight on Easter Tuesday.
litckneen (GAs-Light), and ON Oliver are likely to fight within
a month, provided the stakes c.m be made good.
Cooper is obliged to go to Scotland in a day or two—his parabe
also continue in a bad state—the renewal of the match with Gas
may therefore be considered off, for the present.
SP.lltlt

Befoseo, a sae/stifle hexer, bad a Beneft at the Fives Court,
yesterday, AYltich was well attended by the Amateurs. As far
as the' diversion went, it was good, but most of the first-rate
boxers were absent--having teceived the reward of eierit.
Necker and Spencer had a very manly bout, with equal advan-
tage. They bit out, regardhai of pusi.hment.
Meson af:d Tucker made a spirited set-to : the former had the
best of it, although the least man.
Spring and Pen /hire made a scientific set-to; but there was
more .tapping than hitting. They were, however, applauded.
C spiv and Revaco niqunt,2rl the stage, and gave erase fine
aFvuniciss of the art, wealth finished the sport.

• -4,„ijik.
‘eft,.

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Lad HOLLAND presented a Petition several Pro-
testant Dissenters, of the Presbyterian Cot egationresiding in
Somersetshire, praying for an alteration in the Marriage Act.
A Petition was presented from the Town of Kendal against
the Roman Cathode Bill.
Mr. RICHAILDIIOII, from the Commissioners for building New
Churches, presented an Account of the sums expended for that
purpose, over and above what *ad been granted pursuant to the
Act of the 59th of the late King.
Mr. Batas= brought up from the House of Commons the
Irish Judicial Offices Bill, and some Private Bills.
The Earl of DON OUG HMORE rose to correct important
mistakes which had inadvertently crept into some of the Re-
ports of what had fallen from him last night. First, when be
presented a Petition from the Catholic Warden and Ids Clergy
of Galway ; and when he adverted to the Resolutions of ano-
ther respectable body of Catholics, those of the County of
Kerry. In both casts the parties objected to the part of the
Bill which restricted the intercourse with Rome, whereas the
• • inadvertently stated bodsto be in favour of it. He was
'also represented, at the conclusion of Me speech, to have stated
he had no objection to the Veto, whereas the greater part of
what he said was intended to reprobate that restriction, as en-
tirely unnecessary, and considered as a heavy and unjust indiction
upon them by the Catholic Clergy. His Lordship added, that
though standing as be did with the Public as the advocate for
this measure in that House, it was important for him to hive
the grounds of his argument correctly understood, yet he felt
himself no less bawd to state how just a sense he felt of the ge-
neral accuracy of the Reports of their Lordships proceedings
upon that important question.
DEBATE ON THE CATHOLIC BILL RESUMED.
On the Order of the Day being moved for the
House to proceed in the adjourned debate on this Bill,
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S objected to the mea-
sure, because it was contrary to the Constitution—
because it was contrary ter the oath which he, as well
as other Prelates had taken—( Hear, hear)—and con-
trary to the prerogatives of the Crown. He objected
to it on account of the encouragement it went to
give to the See of Rome, and on account of the dan-
gerous consequetices which might arise to the Church
establishment of this country. Nothing could be
More dangerous than to give political power to per-
sons who acted under a foreign influence; for that
power might be exercised in a manner destructive to
our civil as well as religious establishment.
His Royal Highness the Duke of YORK declared
that he rose to address their Lordships not without
'the greatest reluctance, and with considerable pain.
But there unfortunately were occasions which ren-
dered it the duty of every man, having the privilege
of legislating for his fellow-subjects, not to be con-
tent with giving a silent vote. He felt it an impera.
tive duty, in such circumstances, to express what he
thotight ; and more especially when their Lordships
were called upon to sanction a measure that might
produce an entire change in those great principles
which marked the Revolution of 1688, and seated
his Majesty's family on the throne. The question
now before their Lordships was, however, not new;
it had been agitated for several years, and was al-
ways brought forward by men for whose sentiments
he felt the greatest deference, and more so in oppos-
ing them. Educated in the principles of the Estab-
lished Church of this realm, he could only say, that
the more he heard on the question, and the more he
endeavoured to think, the more he was fortified in
the opinion that its interest,s were inseparable from
those of the Constitution. " My Lords," exclaimed
his Royal Highness, " I regard the Church of Eng-
land as an integral part of the Constitution of our
country, and long may she remain so!" He ob-
served, at the same time, that he trusted he was no
enemy to toleration in its proper sense; but there was
certainly a wide difference between extending to Ro-
man Catholics the liberty of conscience in the per-
formance of sacred rites, and allowing them to par-
take in political sway. It only now remained for
himself to return thanks for the attention their Lord-
ships had so kindly shewn him, and leave the deci-
sion of the question with them. He could assure
their Lordships, in returning those thanks, that he
had uttered his own honest plain sentiments, which
he had maintained ever since he was able to judge
for himself, and which he hoped he should cherish to
the last—(Cheers folooed his Royal Highness's speech).
The Earl of DARNLEY declared that no man
could entertain a greater deference than himself for
anything which fell from the Illustrious Personage
who spoke last ; and it was with deep regret he had
heard the sentiments which just fell from that exalted
individual. He had for many years turned his at-
tention to this subject, and the more he had heard,
and the more he had read, the more was he con-
firmed in the opinion he had formed for granting the
Roman Catholics the privileges they sought for. But
now, when this measure came recommended to them
by the decision of the other House of Parliament, he
felt himself obliged to differ widely from the Illus-
trious Duke. A Noble Earl had, last night, spoken
against this Bill, he spoke very well too; and his
speech would have been a very good one a century
and a half ago, when there were men who declared
they would not have a Popish dog or a Popish cat
in their house ! But all those notions were done
away by the change that had taken place in the times,
and. circumstances of the country; and he was con-
vinced that the doctrines now held forth were not
the doctrines of Christian charity. With such an
authority as that of the late Mr. Grattan, the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward this
question in the other House of Parliament, as well
as that of many other distinguished persons, he was
further confirmed in his opinion. The great weight
of the united talent of the Kingdom was also of his
opinion. He denied that the Roman Catho!ics owed
any allegiance to a foreign Prince. All they did was
to deny that his Majesty was the head of their church;
but they had subscribed to every necessary declara-
tion of allegiance and loyalty to their Sovereign.—
As to the latter part of this Bill, he must say, that
no security whatever was necessary ; for, nn all occa-
Iskins, the Roman Catholics had evinced such a spirit
1 of loyalty as proved that no securities whatever were

. •

required; and the more privileges the Catholics pos-
sessed, the more warmly would they be attached to
the Constitution of their country. Therefore he
would reject every idea of security, and pass this
great measure of policy and justice without any con-
dition whatever. He was confident this indulgence
must, sooner or later, be granted.
The LORD CHANCELLOR began by noticing
what had fallen from Lord Donoughmore on the
former day, respecting the opinion given by him-
self on the first reading of the Bill. He had felt it
to be his duty at 'that time to state at once,' that he
objected to the Bill ; but in doing that, he felt no
sort of disrespect to the opinions of those who sup-
ported the Bill. The Noble Lord who had last spoke
had said, that sooner or later the Bill must be car-
ried. Be it so : but to the last moment of his lifehe
should persevere in doing his duty; and he consi-
dered it a part of his duty to oppose this Bill. It
was his business that night to do this duty, and from
that duty he would never swerve. Was this Bill to
he read a second time? and if it was, could it be
amended ? He defied any man to pass it in an
amended state, or to pass a Bill anything like it.—
If any Bill was to be passed, it must be one altoge-
ther different from this. It had been his lot to op-
pose every measure of this kind, whenever such had
been proposed. He had always objected to any Com-
mittee for considering Roman Catholic claims, be-
cause he never would Mold out any hopes to Catho-
lics which were not likely to be realized. When he
talked of Catholics, he meant his Majesty's subjects
professing the Roman Catholic religion. There was
no man who revered more than he did the memory
of the late Mr. Pitt ; but unless that great man could
satisfy him what securities were to be given to the
Protestant Church, he never could agree with him
in any project he had formed for extending privi-
leges to Roman Catholics : and he never heard from
Air. Fitt what were the securities that ought to Im
given, nor was he ever able to learn from him, that
it was possible to fix on any securities. It was his
opinion, that one of the first duties of a statesman
was, to take care of the religion of the country. It
was liot sufficient merely to look to the political sit
tuation of the country ; but the care of its religions
establishment was one of the greatest duties of the
State, and was indispensable towards supporting the
political welfare of the country. The Government
had adopted the purest system of religion that ever
existed in any part of the world, and had given to-
leration and security at the same time to all sects.—
He declared, that he should better consult the inte-
rests of religion if he were to say, that the Church
of England should not be the Established Church,
than to pass this Bill ; and that it would be better
to have a worse Establishment than none at all.
The Noble and Learned Lord next called the atten-
tion of the House to the scenes that occurred in this
country previous to the Reformation. Until that
event took place, the question of foreign influence
could not be looked at in the same point of view as
since that time. When he considered the laws that
had been passed against the influence of the Church
of Rome, long before the Reformation, he felt the
utmost gratitude to the memory of those great men
who had made such efforts to establish civil and reli-
gious liberty in England ; and from their efforts it
would clearly appear, that the Reformation lived in
England even while she was under the dominion of
the Romish Church. Every one must clearly under-
stand what supremacy was, from looking into our
Statutes. It was defined by an Act of Philip and
Mary, which went to degrade the whole People of
England; and Judge Hale declared that supremacy
meant the civil as well as spiritual jurisdiction of the
power that exercised it. The Roman Catholics now
said, they were ready to abjure all snpremacies, ex-
cept what regarded spit itual matters ; but he main-
tained that the oath was of such a nature, as left it
entirely with the parties taking it to determine what
their allegiance was to be; in fact, it only left mat-
ters as they stood before, and he wished to know why
the person professing the belief of the Church of
England should give a greater security than the Rn.
man Catholic? The Legislature took care that Pio-
testants should give as much security as Roman Ca.
tholics. King William resolved that Protestant Kings
should have Protestant Governments ; and a solemn
compact had been entered into between the King and
the Country, that all persons holding public situations
should be Protestants--that they should make decla-
rations against transubstanti.ttion and other Pi.pish
rites. When the Toleration Act pas.sed in favour of
Dissenters, they were obliged to Like the declaration
against transubstantiation ; and it would be impos-
sible to pass this Conciliatory measure, as it was
called, without doing away the Test and Corporation
Acts. The Bill of Rights and the Act of Settlement
provided that the Monarch should be a Protestant,
with Protestant Ministers. A Protestant Establish-
ment was thus provided ; and if this Bill passed,
there would be a Roman Catholic Establishment.—
His Lordship now alluded to the Act of 1793, for
granting indulgences to Rom-an Catholics, and ob-
served, that this Statute provided the strictest oath -
to be taken for the protection of the Church and the
State; hut all that protection was to be taken away
by the Bill then before the House; and he asked,
how it was possible to suppose that they should, by
that Act, acknowledge the Roman Catholic system
in Ireland, which now existed there only by conni-
I vance? There the Roman Catholic Bishops, as well
las the Protestant Bishop-, were to be acknowledged ;
and he could never consent to a Bill which was
!liable to such objections. But was this a Bill of
I conciliation ? Had their Lord.hips heard anything
from the sisier kin'dorn, which served to prove
to them that the itoman Catholics of that court-
iry considered it a boon, or a thing that tended
to prodace conciliation?--,-(//ntr, hear; hear).--
, The seppOtters of it; however, seemed resolved that '
I the Roman Catholics should have the boon, although
ithe latter Lad expressed their dislike to it. TlMly

-ilO3OOlWe
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••• 414

I

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seeme4 as-if they sicls--" have it you shall, whether%
wyotriike it or not." ',This reminded him of a story
he had read somewhere of a recruit who asked what
was meant by a cat-o'nine-tails?—and to whom,this
answer was given—" Oh ! it will make a volunteer
of you"—( Laughter ).—To such a proceeding as this
he could never agree, for there was no principle of
religious toleration which could allow an Act to be
passed in this way. Then let their Lordships see
what the effect of this Bill would be if passed into a
law. They were still to have a Protestant King, a
Protestant Lord Lieutenant in Ireland, and a
Pro-
testant Chancellor ; but if the Protestant Chancellor
were to have Raman Catholic colleagues, would they
allow him to remain long in his situation? It would
be a monstrous proposition to open the avenues to all
offices in this way ; and so far from its giving satis-
faction, it would create jealousies and dissentions;
for when exclusions took place, the individual filling
the Throne would be pointed at as the author of
them. Then it had been said that Roman Catholics
should not be excluded from sitting in Parliainent,
or from sitting on the Bench—(Hear, hear).—lf we
were to have Roman Catholic Judges, the Municipal
and the Ecclesiastical powers which were now so
blended together, could never be exercised in a pro-
per manner. How could therdetermine those Ec-
clesiastical questions which were founded on our Pro-
testant system ?—(Hoar, hear).—Then as to admit-
ting Roman Catholics into Parliament, it was well
tnown that since 1688 we had a Protestant King
and a Protestant.Patliament; and it was no punish-
ment to any man, that he did not hold an office of
trust, or possess political power: and he would now
declare, that the circumstance of giving the elective
franchise to the Roman Catholics of Ireland in 1793,
was the foundation of that night's debate—(Hear,
hear)—for one accession to power only gave rise to
fresh claims for more power. U Roman Catholics
were allowed to sit in Parliament, they would be
sitting there deliberating on questions connected with '
the Church of England. Would this be a desirable'
event? He felt that his. country was already well
governed, and he would not risk any alteration so
hazardous as this—(Near, hear).—What might here-
after follow from it was uncertain ; but what had

hitherto happened from the possession of power by
Roman Catholics was well known to everybody.—
The Statutes had provided for the purest and best
Church in the world, with the completest toleration
that ever was known, and that was the best possible
foundation for civil and religious liberty. He could
acknowledge a Bishop of the Popish persuasion,. but
be could not acknowledge a Bishop of the Romish
Church in Ireland. Although those persons, ac-
cording to the laws, could not interfere in any judi-
cial proceedings, they still held their Consistorial
Courts in Ireland ; and even took upon them to ex-
clude persons of their own religion from society, by
passing sentences of excommunication against them.
Would their Lordships say, that this was not an exer-
cise of Ecclesiastical jurisdiction ? They exercised a
similar jurisdiction with respect to martiages and
divorces—(Hear, hear).—He assured their Lord-
Ships he should be happy to save them the trduble of
hearing him; but it was impossible for him not to
express himself as he now did. Some persons might
suppose that he was actuated by prejudices ; but
that was not the case. He felt that the laws must
rest on principles which should stand the test of ge-
neral application ; and were not made to suit path-
Cular interests. He concluded with quoting authori-
ties in support of his opinion, and declaring his deter-
mination to uphold the Protestant Religion, as the
rarest means of preserving the liberties of the country.
The Bishop of NORWICH said a few words in
explanation of what had fallen from him on the pre-
ceding night.
Lord GRENVILLE declared that, often as he
had given his opinion on this important question, the
opinion not only remained unchanged, but that his
strong conviction was now more confirmed than ever
it had been, by all the arguments he had heard for
and against this question. On all former occasions,
this question had come before Parliament by the ex-
ertions of individuals, and whatever authority might
have been derived from the talents of such great men,
it now came before them in a widely different form;
for the question now came before them, not with the
recommendation of any reverence for their memories,
but by the recommendation of the other branch of
the Legislature, where it had been discussed with a
wisdom and deliberation hitherto not experienced.
That great body of Representatives of the People had,
after the most mature deliberation, declared that this
great measure of justice ought to be adopted. And
would it be said, that in consequence of some verbal
objections to the Bill, it was not to be entertained by
that House? He did hope that this was not the way
by which the Bill ought to be encountered. The
proper mode of arguirg was, to consider whether
four millions of subjects ought to be excluded from
the benefits of the British Constitution, merely on
account of entertaining certain religious opinions.
He was utterly at a loss to conceive on what princi-
ple of wisdom or justice it could be urged that their
Lordships should refuse to enter into the full consi-
deration of this question. It was utterly impossible
to discuss this question on the grounds set forth by
the Noble and Learned Lord. If he agreed in the
statements of the Learned Lord, he should still enter
into the most ample discussion of the question. In
all that the Noble and Learned Lord said with re-
spect to the influence of religion upon the happiness,
of the community, he fully concurred. • He concur-
red also in every commendation which the Noble and
Learned Lord gave to the purity and discipline of the
Protestant Churclf; and no man was more anxious
to uphold that Church than himself. But the ques-
tion here was not as to the preference of faiths. Their
Lordships saw the Roman Catholic religion preva-
lent to a great extent in these realms, and his object
in supporting this measure was to render that Teti-
4ion less productive of evil to the people of this na-
tion than it now was. Formerly, it was the policy
of this country to oppress and persecute the profes-,
sors of that religion, and to confiscate their proper-
ties. Upon the result of that policy, he believed
there was now no second opinion. His Noble and
Learned Friend contended, that they should leave
this matter as it was left by King William. And yet
hh Noble and Learned Friend, in the same breath,
'said that they ought to take their stand where they
now were—(hear). The %%hole of the principles
upon which King Wilkatu acted were shaken—nay,

totally overthrown, by the system which hadiseenl
followed, and, in his opinion, happily followed}, for
the last
_forty yeari-1-(1/ein, hear). In his opinion,
however, it was a libel-on the Re volution to trace up
the policy of religious exclusion to that great event.
So far back as the reign of Elizabeth, repeated at-
tempts were matte to compel the Roman Catholics of
Ireland to conform to the Protestant religion. To
that object tended the various Statutes which were
seeped upon this subject. Hence arose the persecu-
liec ' d the confiscations which followed. He would
nik`t e
4:t
up their Lordships' time in tracing the laws
whie were passed for that purpose, but he would
roceed to the effects which they produced. The
Noble Lord then referred to a pamphlet of Swift's,
in which that writer describes the situation of the no-
nun Catholics tit Ireland after they were generally
stripped of their estates, and shewed that, by the
latest Acts against Popery, it was intended that the
little which remained to them should daily crumble
away. Hence, he said, many of them became Pro-
testants, and the number of Conformists every day
increased. The writer went on to recommend that
the administration of their faith should be taken away
from them. The Noble and Learned Lord had very
truly remarked, that one of the most important cares
of a State was that of the religion of the People.—
Their Lordships, therefore, would be surprised to
hear that Swift's system was not only promulgated,
but acted upon. He feared he dwelt too long upon
this pan of his subject ; but he could not help ob-
serving that the whole object •of this system was to
render the Roman Catholics of that count: y a band
of Helots. The system, however, succeeded only for
a time. Instead of making their religion distasteful
to the Roman Catholics, it only rendered it more dear
to them. They were rendered incapable of doing
good to the State; but their religion was, up to this
hour, unchanged. In that state of servitude they re-
mained until the reign of his late Majesty. lie had
not heard one argument against the present measure,
which did not go the length of recommending the
renewal of that hostile system which existed at the
Revolution. Tor the last forty years they had been
acting in direct opposition to that system ; they had
repealed many of those cruel laws which had dis-
graced. the Statute Book ; they had opened to the
Roman Catholics many of those objects which were
esteemed honourable and useful to society. If it was
admitted that there was within the limits of the em-
pire a mass of people incapable of discharging the
functions of loyal subjects, to what conclusion would
thee melancholy fact lead, except that of retracing
all. their steps, or expelling that people entirely from
the bosom of the country? But if the Roman Ca-
tholics were acknowledged on all sides to be a faith-
ful and brave people, were they for a moment to
doubt the impolicy and injustice of such a proceed-
ing? His Noble Friend on the other side of the
House, last night, made an apt allusion to the Ara-
bian fable of a giant, who, when the phial or the
chest was opened, enlarged his dimensions, and
touched the clouds with his head, and after was dis-
posed to destroy his benefactor. He could not help
thinking that his Noble Friend was a little too late
in this allusion, for it could apply only to the first
opening of the chest. The chest had long since been
opened, the giant had extended beyond its measure;
but, instead of an evil, it appeared to him to be a
most beneficent spirit. To pursue the tale, lie be-
lieved that the talents and virtues of the Reverend
Prelate for this diocese, great as they were, and no
man admired them more than himself, could not now
persuade that spirit to reduce himself to his original
dimensions. It was said that they had felt the bene-
fit of their present situation, and that they ought not
to remove from it. He acknowledged that to re-
move from that situation would be a great change;
but for that reason it ought to be gradually made,
because it was a great change. If the Act of 1793
was to be considered a final measure, he must say,
that he thought it a measure fraught with great in-
convenience. But he had always considered that Act
as a step to prepare the way for farther concessions.
He knew nothing in the Constitution which withheld
from one class what it gave to another. It was the
fundamental principle of this Government to afford
equal franchises to all. Equal franchise was the
common right of all, the exception was created by
law. To rest where they now were, was to act in
violation of that system of concession which had been
adopted in the reign of the late King—a system
which went to make men unworthy of trust, by shew.
ing them that they were esteemed so—(Hear, hear).
It was upon this ground, to perfect that policy which
they had acted upon for the last forty years, and the
advantages of which they had expellenced, he now
called upon them to erase from the Statute Book
those laws of disqualification which still remained.
Let the vote of this night be as it might, it was no
trivial thing to let it go out, as some Peers had ar-
gued, that the Catholics were incapable of offering
to the Throne an undivided allegiance. Ile contended
that the Roman Catholic, in talcing the oath of alle-
giance, reserved nothing save that same obedience to
the laws of morality which the Protestant reserved,
and must always reserve, equally as the Catholic.
The fountain of all persecution was the unfortunate
habit which men had, of imputing to others, not the
principles and opinions which they professed, but
which were supposed to follow as consequences from
some innoxious tenets which they acknowledged.—
The Roman Catholics were ready to take the oath
contained in this Bill, which proffered an undivided
allegiance, and they were ready also to declare, that
they were in a capacity to perform all the duties of
good subjects, and at the same time to maintain the
principles of their religion. This Bill came recom-
mended by the Commons of the United Kingdom,
who believed, that instead of doing an injury, it
would do a material benefit to the country. The
Commons had decided that they would admit Ro-
man Catholics into their House. Their Lordships
were now deliberating whether they would con-
tinue that exclusion which kept sir individuals of
their own body from sitting among them. if he
did not believe that he was now speaking in the
hearing of those individuals, he would be inclined to
dwell upon their virtues, but he would ask any man
who heard him, if he could single out any one of
those six distinguished persons from whom he could
apprehend danger to the. Constitution ?—(Hear,
hear). Was there one of them whose presence would
not add respect, dignity, and wisdom to the public
councils?—(Goers). It would be gratifying to an
Englishman, could he wash away all trace of these

laws of exclusion from the *cords of 'the enantry.
But perhaps their preservation would not be without
advantage, if it taught men to see to what san-
guinary-lengths religious persecution could go when
once religious discord was rued to take root in
the minds of men—(Hear, hear). When the general
body of Roman Catholics was first degraded, ,no
fault was charged to them except that they were of
the same religion as those persons to whom some.
Crimes were traced. Their Lordships were now con-
sidering, whether they would continue those punish-
ments to their innocent, loyal, and brave descendants
—(Hear, hear). The whole policy of the country
was the revel sal of attainder& Would they continue
to punish men for crimes of which neither they nor
their ancestors were ever legally charged ? Was
any one prepared to say, that the moment the Duke
of Norfdlk and the Earl of Shrewsbury took seats'
on the benches of this House, the State would be
overturned? Would they refuse their rights to indi-
viduals upon no real, but upon imaginary grounds?
Would they, from such unworthy and delusive mo-
tives, keep from the individuals to whom he alluded
the highest and most honourable franchises which
,any country in the world ever had to bestow? His
great object in supporting this measure v/as to pro-
duce conciliation, and to unite the Catholic Clergy
and laity with the rest of the community. With re=
spect to securities, he conceived that when they
passed a Bill of so much grace and concession as
this, they might consider themselves entitled to de-
mand securities, even on, points where no danger
really existed. In the first place, he conceived this
Bill itself oneof the most solid securities for the
State which could be devised. In the next place, he
was of opinion, that all the malignant objects im-
puted to the Catholics were wholly visionary ; and,
indeed, if they were not so, the only seem ity they
could have would be to return to those laws which
had been long since repealed. The best security of
a State was its attention to the happiness of the com-
munity under its care. One of the great advan-
tages of the measure would be to attach the great
mass of the people of Ireland to the Throne and
Monarchy of these realms. Were they to be told,
that after the Commons of Great Britain had passed
this Bill, they were to find in this House, constituted
as it was, of Spiritual and Temporal Peers, a per-
petual obstacle ?—(Hear, hear). But perpetual be
was assured it would not be; should it operate noir,
lie could not but look upon it as a great calamity.
He was, however, persuaded, that ultimately the
measure would succeed, and he should only lament
that it did not succeed on an occasion' so favourable
to it as the present.—(The Nobk Lord sat down
amid loud cheering).
The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed that the sub,
ject which then engaged their Lordships attention
did not originate with any Noble Lord in that House.
The question came before their Lordships not on the
suggestion of any of themselves, but was introduced
from the other House of Parliiment, where it had
occupied much of the attention of those who were
both for and against the measure, and for that reason
he was most anxious the Bill should receive the fullest
discussion from their Lordships. The Noble Earl
(Donoughmore) who invited their Lordships to the
discussion of that question, seemed surprised why he
(Lord Liverpool) had already announced his intention
of opposing the second reading of the Bill. Observ-
ing that the principle of that Bill went to
.grant con-
cessions to the Roman Catholics, which, in his opi-
nion, were dangerous to the safety and existence of
the Protestant Establishment and the Protestant Suc-
cession, he (Lord Liverpool) thought it more manly
and more candid to state in the very outset his de-
cided opposition to the principle of the Bill—(Hear).
—He would grant the Roman Catholics the most
absolute right to personal security, to personal liberty,
to personal property; he would grant them a most
perfect and unfettered right to the inheritance and
transfer of property, as freely as the Protestants had
enjoyed it; he would grant them everything which
might be considered of a civil nature, but he could
not consent to grant them that share of political
power which that Bill was calculated to confer upon
them—( Hear, hear). —He would admit that any re-
strictions in the civil and religious liberty of the
Roman Catholics ought not to be continued farther
than was necessary for the safety of the State. Every
man, he would admit, had an inherent and natural
right to a perfect civil and religious freedom. But
the question before their Lordships regarded not civil
liberty, but political power; and it belonged to the
State to regulate the distribution of that power.—
The Noble Earl, in making these observations, did
not wish to be understood as endeavouring to con-
vince their Lordships that exclusion from political
power was no grievance. He did not deny but it
was a grievance, but the conferring of political power
and the appointment to offices of great trust, should
be always regulated and governed by State necessity.
He knew many of the Roman Catholics of England,
and was in habits of friendship and intimacy with.
them, and he would do them the justice to say, that
they were a most meritorious class of persons. But
he thought their Lordships were bound, by every
consideration of good faith and self-preservation, to
support and protect the Protestant Establishment—
(Hear, hear).—The question which he would wish
to press on their Lordships attention was, not what
would be the consequence of admitting the Catholics
to political power, if their were of the Established
Church in Ireland ; but, the Catholic religion not
being the Established Religion in Ireland, but oppo-
site to, and aiming at the destruction of the Esta-
blished Religion, whether their Lordships were-not
bound to protect that religion so established ?
LHear, hear).—He (Loyd Liverpool) would ask their
ordships then, if they suffered that Bill to pass,
what security had they but that the next thing sought
for would be the repeal of the Corporation and Test
Acts? The consequence of passing that Bill would
be the repeal of those Acts, for without that there
would not be a perfect equality. Then their Lord-
ships would have Jews, and Catholics, and every other
sect on a perfect equality—(Hear, hear).—Where.
then; would their Lordships stop? Would they stop
after the repeal of those Acts ? Then would follow/
the doctrine that all persons having equal rights and
equal privileges, it would be unjust and oppressive
to oblige any persons to contribute to the support of
a Clergy and alteligion of which he was no member
(Hear, herir).—That would he the obvious conso•
quence of breaking down the fences of the Constitu-
tion. Though that Bill professed to support the Pro.

-

testatst Succession, yet, if it passed, it was impossible
the Protestant Succession could remain. He *auk
suppose a case of an Heir Apparent to the Throne,
The President of the Council might be a Roman
_Catholic, the Secretary of State might be a Ramat,
Catholic, and other Great Officers of State might be
Roman Catholics, but the Heir Apparent alone
'must be a Protestant. Under such circumstances
' were their Lordships to risk the security of the
Protestant Succession by breaking down that prin.
ciple which required all those to be Protestants?...
But as to the-Bill itself, if it were passed into a law,
and that the Roman Catholics resisted the Clause,
what Would be the consequence? Their Lordships
knew how anxious some would be for a malt of
martyrdom. That new law was not, like the old Ime
against Roman Catholics, to he dormant on the Ste--
tote Boot. The Bill was obnoxious to the Roman'
Catholics themselves. The Bill would not conciliate:
the Roman Catholics, and could have no
,annd effetf
on the bulk of the people. R few only could be be:
nefited by it; but the mass of the population could
derive no advantage. The Constitution of this conn.•
try was, that the King, Council, and Judtes, au 1 as
the Great Officers of the State, sheuld be l'rotestaate
The Marquis of LANSDOWN was surprised to
hear the Noble Earl say, that that Bill could confer
po advantage on the great bulk of the Roman Car
tholics, but on the leading Catholics only. Was the
Noble Earl to say their Lordships wete sitti. g there
for their own benefit merely, and not for the man.
try—(Hear,hear)--and that the humblest individual
did not profit by their elevation to that high station,
who would not feel a satisfaction in an eligibility to
high offices? And that observation applied prind.
pally to the people of Ireland, who were alwaysalive
to objects of distinction and ambition. Instead of
argument against the Bill, their Lordships had heard
a portion of doctrines which the Roman Catholics
never believed, imputations which they never de-
served, and apprehensions of danger which never
existed, not even in the Bill of Rights and Act of
Settlement, which that Bill went to repeal. They
were asked;
.was the Protestant King to be left in
danger of being surrounded by Roman Catholic ad.
visers? This Bill, of itself, would produce no such
consequence. It would do no more than give a
power to.the King of selecting some of his advisers
of that religion if he thought fit. The Noble Mar-
-quis then referred to the statement of an °fink*
which was held by a former Bishop of Bath and
%Veils, his name was Dr. Hooper, with respect to the
,admission of Presbyterian Lords into this Home..
That Bishop said that it would be detrimental to the
existence of the State. Their Lordships saw, In the
experience of a century and more, how far that
Learned Bishop's prediction was verified. His Noble
Friend, last night, said that the Roman Catholic Re.
ligion had an invincible leaning to arbitrary Gonna-
went, and that the Pre.hyte ian had a tendency to
democracy-. Now, how was this argument sustained.
by the conduct of the Scotch Peers in this House?...
Did they find in those Noble Lords any disposition
to systematic Republicanism ?--(Hear, hear, ad
laughter).—in every country of Europe, at least
where new Constitutions were adopted, in Bavaria,
Wirtemberg, and Holland, Roman Catholics and
Protestants were equally admissible to office. Them
was one fact which, in this argument, he would not
overlook, and which, perhaps, was not generally
known to their Lordships. At the time of the mutiny
of the Nor*, at a crisis of great danger to the State,
Government sent down Roman Cathclic Nests to
bring back the mutineers to their allegiance! This
was a most difficult and delicate mission. The Ro-
man Catholic Priests did go down, and did bring
them back to their allegiance!—(Hear, hear).—And
yet these were the men who, it was argued, were not
to be trusted, when the question was raised as to the
admission of Roman Catholics to the benefits of the
Constitution—(Hear, hear).—The Noble Marquis,
after arguing that this measure would infuse fresh
strength into the Empire, referred to the charge which
a flight Rev. Prelate made last night with repeat°
the establishment, as he called it, of Jesuits at Stoney.
burst. Now, in the first place, there was a law which
- prohibited the establishment of Jesuits in this country,
and this Bill would not repeal that law; In the next
place, there was a bull of the Pope, which positively
prohibited the establishment of the order of Jesuits
any country where they were not allowed by the laws
of that country—(Hear, hear).—That order existedin
no State of Europe which did not particularly desire
and sanction it. He concluded with imploring their
Lordships to give a second reading to this Bill.
Viscount SIDMOUTH said, he felt great pain is
evopposinge
nthoifs
tßhiel
l.
by anything which he had heard in this debate, he
eaßsuntrefr—oma
vthieewvasiewyewthnincltthhanegahad
could not agree to it in principle.
Lord MELVILLE spoke in favour of the Bill
He alluded to the Petition against the Bill that had
been presented from a provincial synod of Scotland,
and stated, that in the minority which voted in that
synod against the Petition, was the celebrated Dr.
Chalmers.

Lord ASHBURTON strongly supported the no.
tion, and said, that should the Bill be rejected, it "'
his intention to enter a Protest against the decisivo.
Lord SOMERS also warmly supported die me!
sure, declaring it to be his conviction, that had his
Noble ancestor, whose name had been conned
with these debates, lived in these times, he would be
favourable to the principle of this Bill.
The Bishop of PETERBOROUGH then role;
but the cries of " Question !" became so uilivtro4
that the House proceeded to an immediate divitico•
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and theil
Lordships having divided, the numbers were---
Contents . 72
Proxies - - - 45
—l9O
110 •
e 9
—159
Majority against the Bill
Adjourned at half-pabt Three this morniug.
HOUSE OF COMIIONS.
Me; WESTERN moved for a Return of the total quantal°
Woollen 'Manufactured Goods exported front the Sal of k":
nuary, iBto, to tia:. .;th of January, 1S:41; distinguidtirt
quantities and qualities of Goods, and to miter Papi.rs corn 10'
with the Woolten Trade.-rOrtlered.
Sir G. ROBINSON presented a Petition from Northatar
ton, in favour of Reform. The Icon. Member nirte.rved. tbe:.
he perfectly agreed with Ate prayer of the Petition.
vision in the [louse skewed the necessity of Refe.rm. t
traresauce of Nioictiss Wcreased, aed Dtoutd cutOuie

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