Star.
London, England, 1817-06-24 00:00:00

r

tiug dorm tnstittectiett, without zny measure lilac
the present,
Mr. wILBEREDRCI: felt as much reluctance as
any man to suspend lot a while the best bulwark of
or Constitution, but thought in the present instance,
,t the safety of the country rendered such a mei-
e;.l necessary. He contended that the disturbances
in the country were not the effect of mere Lwldism,
but that they bore a strong political character. They
were managed by men, not indeed of property, but
accasiderable energy of mind,. who worked on a
i-,eoptc already (open to teductign by tleir own dia.
-;asses. They might thus produce a spirit of dis-
satisiaction throngs' thy vast body of the people, aad
that most valuable of all daises. flee working class.—
lie contended that the evidence did not deny that

;:Aliv:Jbals might be corin,:cted with the insurgents
country, but merely that Oliver knew nothing
any such person or association. If (observed the
aim. Gentleman) there had been no connection with
',.ondoa, why should the people of Manchester and
ueighbiluthood have sat watching the coming in
the mails, when they hoped the Tower and the
2,;lnk would be taken. He had not found any well.
2iiected person who had any strong objection to the
neasute— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) If it
,ere entirely left at the disposal of Ministers, like
be Lehrer de Cachet in a neighbouring country—
Ohout• of Hear, hear, from the Opposition,)—then
it might be dangerous, as it might more likely be
abused. But he did not consider it in that point of

v;,:•k. lie acknowledged that the measure would
De stronger than when it was first enacted, as it
souhl continue whilst the Parliament did nut sit ;

but any abuse would be speedily discovered and
discussed in the House at its re-union—Ogee, hear.)
There would be great danger in allowing those per-
tons, who had already been taken up and prevented
from doing mischief, to be again let loose among the
lower orders—again to return to their noxious prac-
tices—again to disturb the peace of society, and per-
haps execute their plans for the subversion of the
Constitution. W'lacn he • considered what had been
already done by those persons, how much more had
been attempted—the attempts to debauch the soldiery
(A' latish, and Hear, hear, from the Oftrcuition.) Mem- I
be:s might laugh, but which of them would laugh at
being reminded that by these very attempts the indi-
viduals had been brought to trial, and had so nearly
paid the forfeit of their lives ? And was this matter
of laughter ? Upon the whole question, when he con-
sidered the contents of the first Report, and also of
the second —when lie reflected how materially the
peace of society and the existence of good order de-
pended on furnishing the Government with power to
punish the disorderly—when he considered the awful
tesponsibility incurred by Government in the exercise
of these powers, he could not but vote for this Bill,
Lord ALTHQRPE.—The speech of the Honour-
able Gentleman who spoke last, although very elo-
quent, had yet completely failed in'convincing him
of the necessity of furnishing the Executive Govern-
ment with the very great powers which they uoW
denranded. He thought that Ministers had entirely
failed in making out such a case as to justify the ne-.
c.ssity of granting those powers. Even if all that
the Reports of the Committees contained were allowed
to be true, a sufficient case had not been made out.—
But when it was considered how very much the facts
alleged in the Reports had been mistaken, the. ease
igainst this was much stronger. • In the first
Avon it was said that the disaffected in the metro-,
polis had assumed the French Revolutionary em-.
bleu., but it had been proved this was not the case;
that, on the contrary, the flags and cockades of the
rioters were not of the French colours, but 'green,
white and red, adopted from some absurd notions
about nature, truth, and justice. He trusted that
many of those who had supported this Bill in the
early period of the Session would vote against it now,
for there "was a wide difference between entrusting
the Executive with such extraordinary powers during
the Session or Parliament, and continuing those
;ewers during its prorogation. To talk of confidence
in Government was no argument when the question
was about the safeguard of the Constitution. It was
also to be observed, that this Act had nothing to do
with the exertions of Magistrates, to whom it gave'
nn new power. On the whole, he hoped the House
would see the necessity of rejecting this Bill.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY.—The Noble Lord
who opened this debate said, he thought thatall those,
who voted for this measure in the early pan of the
Fission, must also give their vote for the Bill now
before the House. Indeed the Noble Lord went far-
ther, and calculated that some of those who had op.
posed the passing of the former Bill must agree to,
tiro one now before the House. Under all the cit.-
Constances of the case, however, it really seemed
to him, that this was a very unwarrantable assump-
tion. For his own part, he had paid great 'attention
to this subject ; he had examined the facts, and con-
sidered them with all his powers—and this much be
would say, that if he thought the measure now pro-
posed expedient, he would have voted for it. Bat it
WAS to be considered what the nature of the measure
oat? It was not merely the Habeas Corpus Act
Which they were called upon to suspend; but it was
the writ of the Habeas Corpus iiself—it was also to
take away the Trial by Jury. What then was the'
House about to do ? They were consenting to take
may the benefits of the Constitution for an unlimited
period. It was to be particularly observed with re-
ined to the duration of the measure, that it was inde-
nite• The Suspension was to continue as long as it,
should please the Executive Government—that was,
to say, till Parliament should meet again; and that
Itiight be till November, or till January, or till
Ifireh—in short, os long as the Government pleased.
lithe Bill was to be passed, at least, he hoped, a
clause would be introduced to limit the time of its
duration till December, or some other period less
distant. But the measure had been already tiled;
d how would experience support it Had it been
found successful ? • The Noble Lord's argument for
the hill now, did not look very like this. The Noble
Lord said, those who supported the Bill before, mast
support it new, on account of the " augmented *s-
tein of the conspiracies," as the Noble Lord phrased
it' So it teemed conspiracies had grown up under
the operations of this Bill. Fur his own part, this
mimed to hint very natural. The operations of this
all gave the people a real grievatioe to complain of.
the designing and the mischievous bad now•a real
34Itdk with which to work on the minds of the igno-
rant. They were not now obliged to hunt back to

•
t!,e reign of ttia:g Liz icr. Orne ithagtnatt grteiN
mice ; rill- now '1 rial by Jury was done away with—.
the system of Government acting by spies was
avowed--(Cries of Hear, hear, is orb the opposition,)
That things shluld be come to such n pass, that in
the British House of Commons the systetn of spies
~hould b openly aviiwe,!, was truly a most melan-
choly consideration ; it was what most excite and

ought to excite more discontent than such measnres

as—this Bill ought to suppress or could keep down.
He was one of those on whom the first Repiert of the
Secret Committee had madc a great impression ; but
upon %more rninute inquiry and more grave comi-
detation he had changed his opinion. Having com-
pared the facts which came out in an authentic shape
un the late trials, with the statements in that Report,

his confidence in k bad been much shaken. W. it
possible that after all that was said iii it abottt ern.

- . .
sprouts and delegates, one Circuit and one Quarter
Sessions had taken place without one trial ? (Ear,
hoar, hear.)—That Government had even avoided
bringing any one case to trial! (Hear, hear.)—At
Manche:3er no less than 140 persons had been ar-
rested. Of these only a few were indicted ; and even
these few were net brought to trial, for the Govern-
ment caused writs of certiorari to be sued out to pre-

vent the trials, and thus to prevent the good effect
which must ensue from making examples of the
guilty, or rather to prevent it from being seen that
racts had been greatly misrepresented. But What per.
sons had been convicted for this ? What trials had
there been ? Only one. And that one solitary case
was for a libel on the passing of the former Bill—a
libel, he might say, provoked (not that he meant this
as any justification of that case), but in a manner
provoked—certainly caused by the passing of this Act.
The case he alluded to was that of Wooler. In ar-
guing against the necessity or the policy of this mea-
sure, it was not necessary to go farther than the last
Report of the Committee. There were two passages
in it which he must beg leave to read to the house.
They were these Your Committee cannot con-
template what has passed in the country, even since
the date of their former Report, without the most se-
rious apprehensions."--4. It appears to your Commit-
tee, that the utmost confidence prevailed among the
Delegates as to the ultimate attainment of their ob-
ject; that the successive arrests of several of the prin-
cipal leaders, though they occasioned momentary dii-
appointment, did not extinguish the spirit of insur.
rection or the hopes of success." What, then, did
all this prove ? Did it not drew that the effects of
this Bill were utterly inadequate to the object' in
view ; and that it produced no permanent good et.
feet ? It appeared that there was no want of leaders.
So long as there were any disaffected, they would not
want a leader. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.Wilber.
force) seemed to forget, that by an Act passed in the
beginning of this Session, all chose Delegates were
made liable to transportation. The Learned Mem-
ber then went on to confute, from facts, what was
said about Luddism ; maintaining that that onfortu-
innate system had taint such. deep root in the coon-
trY, that if the Bill was to be passed to put an end
to that dreadful system, its duration must not be for
a few months, but fur several years—(Hear, hear.)
As to that part of the Report which treated of the
situation of' London, it was said. that " ne specific
information has .been laid before your Committee of
the existence of any body of men, associated in the
Metropolis, with whom the disaffected in the country
appear to be acting in concert, or to hold communi-
. cation." What he alluded her to particularly was
the use of the words "no specific information." If
there was no spreifir information before the Commit-
,' tee on that subject, he was entitled to assume, that
there was no ititormation at all worth any notice.
How his Honourable Friend (Mr. W.)
,could say,
after all the petitions on the table of the House.—
after the petition presented the other night from the
Merchants and Bankers of a town which his Honour-
able Friend once represented ; how, after all this, he
could :ay that none but t e disaffected opposed the
measure—( Loud cries of , hear, from the Op-
position)—was more than he could conceive. He
could not but consider has one of the worst signs of
the timers that undue powers should not be considered
with a view to their particular nature and tendency.
but to the hands to which they were entrusted. Of
*hat tyrant the most detestable who ever lived, had
irnot at some time been said, that the powers which
he abused might be safely trusted to him ? As for
this particular case, he had a high respect for the
private character of the Noble Lord. to whom the
powers conferred by this Bill would be more imme-
diately entrusted ; but as to his public acts, for them be
had no respect whatever (Thor, from the Opposition).
Bad as the effects of this Bill would be to England—
to Scotland they would be infinitely worse. By its
operation the benefits of the Wrongous Imprisonment
Act would be completely taken away. The general
disposition of the people of Scotland was good and
loyal, although it had been much misrepresented.,
To prove this, he referred to the Address lately pre.
rented to the Prince Regent by the General Assembly
of the Church of Scotland. The Noble Lord affected
to talk of the perilous responsibility incurred by Go-
;moment in being invested With such extraordinary
powers. This really almost seemed as if the Noble
Lord was amusing himself at the expense of the
House. When even the names of the persons im-
prisoned under these powers were refused, did they
talk of responsibility ? Was there any man who
doubted that this would be followed up by an Act of

Indemnity The present Administraiion had gained
very much by this measure. Tim present Session
would have passed [in a very different way, if this
greatest of all questions had not been forced upon the
House. Indeed, it was generally believed that the
Noble Lord, and his colleagues, owed their conti-
nuance in office to these measures. The country
was reduced to a dreadful situation, and its prospects
had become indeed melancholy.—(Hear, hear).-
-The nation was divided into two opposite parties.
The people, by their violence, gave the Government
an opportunity of strengthening its hands; and the
Government, by the violence of its measures, exaspe-
rated the people. Where this would end Gov alone
could know ; but part of the effect of such a system ,
'was, to take away respect for all Governments; for,
when Ministers were accused, their, murse was to
shew that their predecessors had done what was as
bad•or worse. The effect of this was plain. If ever
tumults should arise, there would be some to whom
the people could look up with confidence. They
would be obliged ►o have recourse' to the wretched

ad4enturen %%km the times should ondect, and
whom thAt dreadful crisis would force ir,to notice.-7
Td that disastrous state• he feared we were of hstis
tening: When it arrived—but Goff forbid it ever

should-,.than indeed sertlld that responsibility which
the Noble Lotel now Idiy talked or; fall til)nn him
and-Isis collearturs, and they would deeply repent the
course which they had pursued—(Heat, hear).
Mr. BAN was aware of the difficulty of an-
swering the Honourable and Lea:mid Gentleman
(Sir Samuel Romilly)—(Hear, hear, from the Oprori-
tion)—hut he spoke shortly in favour 01 the Bill,
contending that• it was more necessary during the
prorogation, than during the sitting of Parliament.
Lord MILTON spoke stror,4 agaiw.t the Bill.
He lamented that itt supporting the Bill in the early
part of the Session, he had been obliged to differ from
his dearest friends, but was now happy t) agree With
them in reprobating the proposed measure, as he con-
sidered it both unnecessary and impolitic. He wished
to force Ministers to do justice by punishing those who
have been criminal, which would do more to restore

tranquillity than any thing else that could be adopted.
It was a bill of attainder which deprived the people
of their constitutional rights. The history of the
Habeas Corpus Act proved that it was our barrier
against the power of the Crown, which had always
increased. He knew no Ministry who were not in-
clined to increase that power. He was one of those
who thought that the greatest harm that had been
done to this country was the language and the publi.
cations that had been held and circulated. Nothing
could tend mine to degrade authority than to make
the people believe, that such an Act as that of the
Habeas c'orpus was of little or no value. He would
much rather place this power in the hands of James
11. pr Ministers who would abuse it, than in the bands
of those wi-o profess to use the measure mildly. Let
us only restore prosperity to the country, and we
should hear no more of disaffection or alarms.

Mr. COURTENAY (of Exeter) thought it was
giving an unfair representation of what had passed on
his side of the House, to assert that the powers to be
vested in Ministers were likely to be abused. Be
went at some length into a general defence of the
measure, and said, he gave credit to the sentiments
in the Report, which he conceived spoke the fair sense
of the evidence. If he found the evil existing in five
or six counties in England, it would not be prudent
to leave the whole of the other parts exposed to the
ittfluetice of the meditated mischiefs.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT. was against the further
Suspension. and of course would give hi, vote against
the Bill.

Mr. W. ELLIOT would pass by the grounds of
the measure being an encroachment on the Constitu-
tion. The Parliament having reserved to itself the
right of renewing the Act, the point at issue now
was, whether we were in sufficient security to aban.
don the measures which had protected us ? It had
been proved that there was a system in action to cor-
rupt, morally and politically, the most extensive and
efficient part of our population. The danger which
he felt did not result from partial disturbances, but
from the peculiar mind and disposition of the people ;
for who could observe the conduct of the Delegates
without feeling jhat precaution was absolutely neces-
sary ? If this principle were let alone, it would Work
from the low into the higher classes of the community.
There were men who had considerable influence on
the public mind. Nobody could doubt that the object
of the Manchester Expedition was !me. (Hear, hear.)
The demagogues harangued, the people followed.
The detention of the leaders was a salutary precau-
cation ; by detaining them their dependents were
confounded and disheartened. If we were now to
withdraw the measure, we should give them a fresh
impulse. He therefore not only gave his vote for it,
but lie was ready to acknowledge that he had joined
in recommending it, because he was convinced that
it was calculated to protect the best iutererts of the
country-(Bear, hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM would avail of this opportu-
.nity of delivering his opinion, as it was not likely he
should find one in the future stages of the Bill. The
question was exactly the same as when the first Re.
port was laid on the table, all men admitting that
the measure was a suspension of the Constitution ;
and it resolved itself into this—have we evidence that
such a necessity exists ? No. On a comparison of the
first Report, with the facts that have since tinned
out, it would be seen to be all one from beginning to
end. It was of the nature of alarm to be infectious,
-and nothing • were men more anxious to do than to
communicate the disease to others—(Rear, hear.)—
The Manchester plot bare the same reference to
the present Report as the London plot did to the first;
and now it was said that the plot was confined to
the country, and there was no focus of it in London ;
so that we bad not so formidable an enemy to con-
tend with. An individual (Thistlewood) had been
supposed to possess the power of paying for all ex-
' peases of the insurrection. Yet it turned out that he
was so poor, that he could not afford to appear in the
ordinary dress of the country, but was habited in a
sailor's jacket. The Learned Gentleman then en-
tered into an account of the plan of the conspirators,
as developed in the late trial, which he argued was
one of the most ludicrous cases ever brought before a
Jury, both as respected the situation of the prisoners,
the attack made, or said to be made, on the Tower
by a formidable army of oar man, or the plan of
taking the Bank by the truly tremendous blow of
glass bottles. (Load faughlas, dad /fears hear.) The
cavalry commanded by two Generals or Captains,
who could pot ride, and one of whom could scarce
walk, while, by the artifice of Castle, a wretch, at
pronouncing whose name even nature herself trem-
bled, lost as he was to every feeling but that of blood
and rapine—the waggon was loaded with what ?
Why, 1 lb. powder and six bullets—a tremendous
store, no doubt. , (Hew- aad a latch.) The Lord
Mayor, a Member now of that House, was not called,
and why ? Because he knew the whore as a whole.
This was the plot, and no man would have given his
credit to it, without great hesitation indeed, it, ipstead
of being presented then, it had been presented now.
The question was, on what foundation the informa- 1
tion rested. The persons who had been tried were I
not guilty of high treason; but it was not proved'
that those.persons were worthy of the respect of any
honest man; and it was not proved that it they had
been tried for the offence they had actually commit-
ted, they would not have. been found guilty by the
sexy same Jury. Undoubtedly the riot was a great
crime, and he should deeply regret the day whtts tlm.c

Sod

'eottpanioni• of tasile should be lifted into the! lent.
degree of public importance. Tile Honourahle Get •
dernin went on to contend, that the conduct of
flows at Manchester did not bear nut the opiaio.r,
entertained of it: Adverting' to 181'2, he obse:ved,
that not one word was then suggested, of the nece,.
sky of Gagging Acts, much lest of tu.HenJing the
Constitution. He then noticed the different ergo.;
Mews of the Honourable Member for Yorkshire,
which he considered as inapplicable to that case. Lie
did not accuse Lord Sid,siouth of intending to abase
this power, because it was net necessary to Wit art
mast—(LaushLr).—rent was he infalli'de while tl4 ra
were Castles and Myers in the w )11,1? He .toce! i:t
this moment the recut dad dupe of Ctiiver, and privat::
malevolence might find its v..ay into that claimer
where self-ii nest had Arcady made a lidgmeitt.—
He condemned tht doctrine that spies mast be err' •
ployed, and expressed his astolishmera that it shcn.ll
be asserted there was nothing agains, the moral charac-
ter of Oliver, who had excited p..,0p1e in acts of Hie:
Treason, in order to extort money tunn the Govern-
ment by fraud. If a rising had taken place, he waul.".
have been guilty of every drop of iniiic.:nt blaod that
might have Leer. shed, either by the insurgents or by
the executioner. He defied any man to shew him it
more blackened villain than him who was defended
under this new system of morality. He concluO.ed
with insisting that the reathremc,ly for the evil was ia
bringing the persons to trial agair.st whom there was
evidence. The imprisonment of 11.0 persons iu Lan-
caster Castle, withcut bringing them to trial, was the
best proof that .there was no evidence against them,
and was the strongest argument against p,iv;:tg Mi•
sisters such inordinate power. He allud,d to tlic
pinion of Earl Fitzwilliam, as a corroboration that
there was no ground whatever for these exaggerated
alarms, and that no new power was necessary to pre-
serve the public tranquillity. He would deny that
we had a Constitution if we were to fear for it every
time it was assailed by a Watson, a HOOper, a Pres-
ton, or a l'histlewood ; for until such reptiles swarme
in every street, it was a gross and pitiful injustice and
cruelty to deprive the people of England of their li-
berty. If this Bill were passed, let the expression
never be heard again, that Englishmen were happier
than the rest of mankind, by possessing a greater de-
gree of-civil liberty.

Mr. CANNING argued the policy of the measures
and defended the conduct of his Friend ( Lurd Sid-
mouth) as dictated by the most heartfelt concern for
the public welfare. He considered that the very im-
portaiit question now under consideration depended
entirely upon three positions: namely, was there dan-
ger in the country ? Was that danger such as to re-
quire extraordinary powers to be put into the hands
01 the Ministers of the Crown ? And was the precise
measure now under discussien that which was adap-
teal to ward off the evils which were impending
That there was danger in the country, he thought
few, indeed, would be found to deny ; and that it
was of a mature which required such a remedy, no
man who had completely considered the subject could
dispute. Even on the subject on which many Ho-
nourable Gentlemen had been so triumphant, the
acquittal of the perms (Watson, Hooper, Thistle-
wood and Preston) who had been tried for high trea-
son, he thought there was not so much reason' for
congratulation.—( Loud crier of Hear, hear.) In.
deed, if 'it were generally considered on the other
side, that the offences of Messrs. Hooper, Preston,
and Watson, were as nothing, and that every thing
that they had been concerned in was perlectly nano.
cent—(Cries of No, ~ I from ere Clipositiors).- -
then, he was to understand that there was realty guilt
in the transactions in %%Lich those men were eneae,ed.
But if, perchance, by. mistake, they should Lave been
considered as having, by their own innocence being
proved, destroyed all evidence of improper proceed-
ings, what effect would their acquittal have in the
country? Where would there have been a greater ar-
gument for a Suspension than that very acquittal ? It
ought, indeed, to be recollected, that the advocates of
some of those very men at the Old Bailey had found
fault with the negligence of the Officers of the Crown
• in not indicting tnem for high treason, and not for
the minor offence for which they were then tried.—
'The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in his
humble opinion, had entirely misunderstood the ob-
servations of his Honourable Friend, the Member for
Leicestershire. He had not defended every thing
which had been done by a person of the name of
Oliver; he had only said that lie was not acquainted
with any offence of which that person had been
guilty previous to the transactions in which he bad
been particularly mentioned. It bad been argued
that a certain Noble Lord had
" Turned a tyrant in his latter days,
" And lost the lustre of Its former praise!'

He did not see, however, that that had any great
weight with the question, which, as his Noble
Friend, whose able speech the House had heard
early in the evening, had said, rested entirely upon
its own merits. As it had been well observed, it }vas
for the loyal, the peaceable, and well disposed, that
the measure was required ; for them he demanded
it, and their rights he would maintain. It was for
the peace, for the safety, and the tranquillity of the
country that the measure was required. It was re-
quired for one whose preservation might be of con-
; sequence. It was necessary that our liberty should
be for a time controlled in order that we might enjoy
it greater permanence and perfection. It was I.e.
cessary, in order that we should he guarded Iron
those who would destroy our Constitution under the .
pretence of restoring it. it was absolutely requisite.
is order that the fermentation which was perceptible
in the country, from vari.us causes might be silt,.
dueJ, whereas, if not touched, it would finally and
inevitably have exploded. Once more, be repeated,
it was for the loyal subjects of the Realm that, tko
Suspension was required, send for those he hoped it
would be granted.
Lord FOLKESTONE congratulated the 11.1u.e
and the country on the happy reconcili::tion whicn
had taken place between Lord Sidmoutli and the
Right son. Gentleman, and he was the more glad
of this when he remembered the excellent lines in
which at different times the Right Horonta!)le Gen-
dematt had been pleased to paneg yi ise hi, n .rla Friend,
of which the following were not the worst
" t shoved myself prime IN to the er•umcry,
My ends attulned, my only aim ha. hixo,

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