Star.
London, England, 1816-03-09 00:00:00

ARMY NSTIMATIII.

Mr. BROGDEill;rinught up the Report of the
Committee of Supply.
Mr. COX took the opportunity of troubling the
House with a few words. He approved of the con-
duct of Ministers during the war, and thought that,
as far as regarded its external relations, the country
was now in a state ofheeatest security; but inter-
nally, the nation suffered the utmost distress. He
did not pretend to be acquainted with the number of
men 'required for the defence of our Colonies ; there-
fore, he thought, to be able to form any judgment on
this subject, it was necessary to look what was the
number required for them formerly, while we were in
a state of peace ? By doing this, it would appear.
that the present establishment was twice as large as
the greatest which we had required for that purpose
at any former period during peace. He was aware
that our Colonies and foreign stations were now more
numerous, but yet he could not think that double the
number of men was now required. As to the army
at home, be-had heard no reason stated why we should
maintain 14,000 cavalry in Great Britain and Ire-
' land. The excess of.tbit cavalry establibhmeat above
that of 1792 was 6,600, and the only explanation of
this increae was, that it was required to prevent
smuggling, which he considered absurd.. All that
he wished was, that every Member would calmly
consider what force it was)necessary to maintain, and
not vete for one mass more than was absolutely ne-
cessary.
Mr. NEWP4AN particularly disapproved of the
amount of cavalry to be supported under the pretext
of preventing smuggling. It had been argued by a
Right Honourable Gentleman • (Mr. Rose) some
nights ago, that the collection of,eight millions of re-
venue would be effected by means of the cavalry, at,
an expense of only 4440,000; but he was convinced
that it would be found a s) stem most ruinous to the
morals of the country, and subversive of the disci-
pline of the troops, who would soon become a kind of
Guerillas. It would be with much reluctance that
he voted against. Ministers on this point, as he was'

__ ..`

story sorty to find himself_ obligei to oppose ahy of
the measures of men to whom the country awed so
very much. Qs to the honselfeld troops, he thought
that too large a number of them was proposed to be
maintained. To the amount of pensions, and to the
sum for the Military Colleges, he had no objection ;1
but fot the Local Militia he saw no netessity.
Mr. FOLEY said the country was in such a situa'
tion as to require the strictest economy. He insisted
particularly on the danger to the Constitution from a
standing army. Ic was in vain to say that the pre-
sent establishment vas only required for a short time,
because the situation of the country was so urgent,
that we could not afford to lose one instant in pro-
ceeding to make our retteechments. If we did not,
be4ere this short time elvsed, we should be ruined.
Ministers, with economy in their mouths, came to
the. House, and asked it to support a Peace Establish-
Meat of 130,0(X) men. This could nut be tolerated ;
and, as a faithful Representative of the People, he
found it his duty to oppose it to the utmost of his
power.
Mr. COURTNAY admitted that those Gentle.
men oppo‘ite, who thought the present establishment
too large, had acted up to their duty in opposing the
House going into the Committee. But for his own
part, in the best exercise of.i►is judgment, he did not
believe that any reduction could be made consistently
with our security. He dould not agree with his Ho-
nourable Friend (Mr. Calcraft) in his conclusions as
to the reductions which might be made in the garli.
sons of our Colonies. As to the force to be kept up
at home, great o!jections had been urged against the
employment of cavalry in the suppress►on of smug-
gling; but he believed that for time immemorial it
had been usual to employ the military in this way.—
The question with respect to the Colonies must al-
ways come to this —whether the protection which lay
upon the country with respect to them, could be ade-
quately performed with a smaller force I He could
not undertake to go through the consideration of the
amount of force for each colony separately, but upon
the whole, he had heard no satisfactory reason for a
reduction in any one cf them. The unfair attempts
which had been made to mix up the question upon
the Establishment with that the Income Tax, had
entirely failed. It was invossible that any reduction
in the amount of force could do away the necessity
of this Tax.

Mr. Cox and Mr. Tor.EY explained.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT coold not patiently hear
Gentlemen talk at keeping up for two years a midi.
Lary system in Inland, and delaying the only Wr.A•
MO which could restore it; tranquillity. If it was
intended to governs that country by a military force,
he would be the last man to vote a shilling for that
purpose. Ireland, as she was ill or well governed,
would be a source of strength or of weakness to'
Great Britain—of weakness, because her mis-govern-
Mg might not only cut oft a limb from the empire,
' but turn it into a weapon of aggression. He therefore
called for a direct examination into the grievances of
Ireland. It was not of the present Government he
complained, but of the whole system of misgovern-
ment carried on for centuries in that country. That
WAS the real cause of its disturbed state, and England
now reaped the bitter fruit of her own injustice. He
therefore asked of Parliament, for his country, as well
as for the interest and honour of the empire, to look
into that odious system of misrule which had so Ion.;
disgraced England and afflicted Ireland. A popu-
lation of six millions were no longer to be troddeu
under font, and if the attempt were continued, fatally
might its consequences be felt. He had said thus
much, because it was the habit of the House to put
tiff whatever concerned Ireland to a period of the Ses-
sion, a hen considerations of pleasure or business called
its Members away. He wished the Noble Lord op-
posite had descended from his imperial intercourse,
to regard the interests of his own country. He ought
to have recommeoded, in the speech from the throne,
an inquiry into the state of Ireland ; but he had not
even regarded the pledge given last Session, and en-
tered on the Journals of the House the Resolution to
consider the system of the two Exchequers. It seem-
ed to be determined to conquer, by delay. But it
was impossible for Ireland now to take any part of
' the burden upon herself, for she was in a state of
complete ruin. Three-fourths of her population had
been accustomed to live by agriculture, and until the
distresses of that branch were remedied, it wow' nut
be twenty-five thousand, nor fifty thousand men, that
could enforce tranquillity in that country. A suffer-
ing people, and an impoverished and beggared gen-
try, would be all that would , remain of Ireland to
Great Britain. Neglect was still more pernicious to
Ireland than the enormous weight of taxation which
she had so patiently borne during the war. Her im-
poverishment was the impoverisnment cf England ;
for it appeared by the returns for which he had moved
this Session, that there was a rapid decrease in the
consumption of English manufactured articles, hither-
to deemed of the first necessity in Ireland. The beg-
gary of the people obliged them to wear their coats
in rags. He concluded by claiming for his country a
constitutional remedy.
Mr. C. GRANT disclaimed any wish on the part
of Government to govern Ireland by a military force
and to keep down the people of that country. The
Government "ere convinced of the truth of many of
the sentiments delivered by the Honourable Baronet,'
and which had been expressed a few days since by the
Secretary for Ireland with no less feeling. As to
what had been said of -the Army Estimates, there
were two modes of enquiry : To what extent the
country was able to support the proposed expendi-
ture of the Establishment, and how tar that Estab-
lishment itself was necessary. If it was true, as it had
been asserted, that The resources of the country were
exhausted, it was no longer a question of economy,
but one of reduced empire, for it would be unwise
to retain an empire beyond our means to sustain. But
he thought that as the distress proceeded from tem-
porary causes, with them it would cease, and though
he sympathised with those distresses, he denied that
the resources of the country were exhausted. At
the end of the American war it had also been loudly
proclaimed, that the national means were exhausted;
an Honourable Gentleman had even said " that the
country was used." What had then been the con.
duct of Mr. Pitt I He might hive been told, as it
was now done, about military despotisfu, and the
uselessness of colonies, but in the face of all these
difficulties he proposed new taxes. Parliament had
the wisdom to impose them. Their beneficial results
ware known. Why should not the same system be

at present adopted ? It was aireed nn
a considerable increas in the ee4hlisiertee
parison with that of 1792, was necessary; ';ti"
should the House be entirely blend
went of that period ? It was the situation 0f':...".
pire, and of Europe, that ought to
ut their consideration. It bed never been °lee
the '
of a British statesman to look eies wiz Fe:
the state of Europe. It was said that nee eLescek
too deeply entangled with European peeee's7i2a
would ask when it had been legs ? Was it .‘,ll
William 111. or Under Queen Atine ? Ti -taZel
was not .ow, whether the conetry shoeli
to the highest pitch of glory and of power hat'wd
Cher, having obtained that point, it would be- evl4
abendon is? Experience had shewn 4,r wet_
1.1 mainteieing our ascendeecy in
equalling the numerical strength of her anmes:4,:
then took a view of the state of &rept
Mr. Pitt proposed the establishment uf 179 e
had the arts and sciences and the civil poweebega
predominant than between the close ot the Ames
war and that period. There were net !hen 84;
men in arms on the Continent, and eel/ thee
bloyrrthisethe
upwards of 1,400,000. natter, which had there
been the chief object of our alarm, was then i7lle,
a siteation, that Mr. Burke said that lieleakda7l,
map of Europe, and France no longer nisei":
was at such a period that Mr. Pitt had EmoidL'i
establishment ; but lin* different was nue.:
of things! It was asked was CIS the
exertions and our sacritices ? Had we asem!!
our object ? The fact was, we had gaierZ.
thing, but we had not yet secured it. The 5.41-14
wisdem that had led to the acquirement, me.r%
he employed to fie the enjoyment ut the 664...
The spirit of Jecohinism was t,ertheern, elia
extinct—he was still stirring in the world-(161
He si oeld now consider the conoitiaionaleijes4
raised against the establishment. It he tht,u6e s
really calculated to threaten the integrity el esc
stitution, he should advise rather to reeesehef,
wits of the empire than to maintain them by a sr
rein of so fatal a tendency. But it was not trao:,
the British Constitution was unequal to the:"
of a great empire. One of its most strikisg
was the facility with which it adjusted itself :0,
emergencies and necessities. The 2e:sources shie
developed were inexhaustible. Ii it were see
time, and the progress of events, had fenced
Royal Authority with stronger guards, thek
of the democracy bad also been .augmented. li ,
dominion stretched to ail the certeri of these;
to every sea which a ship could motive, our
stitution also expanded itself to provide for el le,
necessities of so mighty an empire. The iaerenec'
commercial wealth, the extension of light, learning,
and political knowledge, the strength and trade;
uf public opinion, were the ccrrectives that aerie;
with our Constitution, to guard it and bearnityite.'
If the army had been ti ipled, those guards had lies
been tripled within the same paiud, and the Cer,‘.•
tution remained able to decide on its own inte;e!
and the security of the empire. It had been reueee(
that other States had also been free, but dra doe
Constitutions had been overturned by nativfaMe
and native generals. This had happened, be a
times when a large poptiletion, lucked up in share,
was unable to resist the efforts of as army. bat a
our country the whole weight of the cieil power t.pe
rated against the army, which vets :object to the a.
.pervision and controul of Parliament. The sank
was commanded by the King, but only etieed by
the Parliament. The influence of public opiaint
was another safeguard against its attempts. beads
Officers only, but every British soldier called to tie
field, besides his military virtues, a consciousee 11
his own rights under the constitution of his ewer,
with thoughts and wishes that beLeet;ed to the care
of a free state. In the langnaile ot a great pe
he had

" The scorn of death in Freedom's sacred cause,
And freeborn though:s that league with freolodshoe
It was this national character which conqueredaul
occasions, and that ha.i made the scene of Wrie
so interesting, not only by the brilliant ditpllyi
British valiwr, but by the triumph of the feta.
Constitution. Alarm had been expressed at &Eli*
litary spirit diffused through the nation, bet *II
had occasioned that military spirit ? The tterersba
war just closed ; the existence of the great dart
which that military spirit had subdued. Mcleod
had created it, and when once produced how rats
to be met? Was it thought that a mere word Eel
dissolve it, or indulging in the ridicule of thee
had defended' the freedom of their country. T 2
only means would be to dig deep and wide the furir.
dations of a lasting peace. He regretted the langsql
that had been held respecting the military, and
ridicule with which even the foibles of those NNW
been treated, who, whilst the House were go" fi.
tranquillity, had sated their best blood, and acLc°
the liberty of Great Britain and of Europe. 1:0
hard and. ungrateful to suppose they wail fr
against their country. But they were proof ,tga,"lll
such taunts, and it might be said "
sat them at 811
ancient hero, that they were protected from 121 :
by the greatness of the triumph which they
achieved—View hear).
Mr. W. WYNNE was not conscious at what
,the taunts alluded to by the Honourable GeTi°lll.,l
had been uttered against these most heroic indiuwr
who had given their country the exo;ple of Bt4
deeds.. The whole time he had been in 1).41t."
he did not remember one syllable spoken
fully towards them—( Near, hear, hum).
Mr. C. GRANT explained, that he alluded NI
ridicule thrown even on the foibles if that r

class, and to the perpetual insults which they
from the press (Bear).
Mr. WILLIAM WYNNE ccntendeJ, that
ridicule of the press was directed against the ,00ki''
and fopperies with which the army were Ji.tiguw.
and in which the Gentlemen of whom it WAS COW
sed had really no part themselves. (hear, hear')
Did the Honourable Gentleman think that the Jo'.
asked for those fopperies, or to be allowet! to.
their equipments every mouth I'o call' thot 1:
foibles of the army was too absurd—tLey Were it'
foibles of other persons. The Honour.ibie Gentl-fm'
had also spoken of the ciao-ion of political ke:t"
ledge and free thoughts, even ait:ung.t
he doubted ouch whether a m•pcLi!ig
ever studied what was their powers under vie
Constitution. Suppose an Hiker mad enoug3
march to this Rouse, and turn all its Wm:l).-oovi

necessary rV::01;;:.• einis:
adopted ? It was agreed en 01
on
1 7I
t 9 2w, a: tal e
able increase in the ee4blisierr.. " flow,
itaht tpheat
itodof
House be entirely blued by
of Europe, that ought t
0 form the , the
nsideration. It bed never been rie "in
h statesman to look %awl Pohl
indi tee • atilt
f Europe. It was said that eure,C"ck
entangled with European p„e..c":"ett•a
when it had been lass ? «•as acne
11. or Under Queen Aerre " Ike t"
ow, whether the conetry shoelPhri*,e tit
hest pitch of glory and of pewer,
ng obtained that point, it would' he- vl"
r? Experience had shewn us Ctrpssi
ining our ascendecy in I:‘
the numerical strength of her art '4t, -"Li as
a view of the state of &rept et two
o
iropesed the establishment r !'"41;
•
is and sciences and the civil powerhen"l
Int than between the close of the et-11/74 *ice.
hat period. There were net el" A 1744. •
ms on the Continent, and new th,, °ors
if 1,400,000. natter, wl.ich e
harlee" lie
hief object of our alarm, was then I. s iors
he
i, that Mr. Burke said that lO4 lE
e,
urope, and France no longer ether, ,d t
:h a period that Mr. Pitt had peoic-0 . int
lent ; but lin* different was no,eake:"" „ eat
It WAS asked was CIS the reeteitm ime
and our sacritices ? Had we nut „,e arlf ued
? The fret was, we had gaily .und
r we had not yet secured it. The aid opc
rat had kd to the acquirement, cuerei ; •en
.ed to fix the enjoymeet sat the 664_1 .t
Jacohinism was overt:mere, •' n
le was still atirzing in the w ,WI
U., ...(eat
I now consider the comtitialonalu •.1 oar
bPia
tinst the establishment. It he theme I•d
:ulated to threaten the integrity of en, ,• of
he should advise rather to retenthee
re empire than to maintain them by a n.
fatal a tendency. But it was not trata:e nece;
a Constitution was unequal to the dame (in"'
empire. One of its most striking feta, 263
acuity with which it adjusted itself1t
ies and necessities. The resources Cal, min
L were inexhaustible. Ii it were tree oe bin
the progress of events, had fenced".
ad
ithority with stronger guards, theist!, that
mocracy had also been .augmented. It r 'm
stretched to ail the cetnei of the see'
ea which a ship could navigate, oar Co:.
into expanded itself to provide fie sate as'
of so mighty an empire. The iaaree
al wealth, the extension of light, kap.% , '""'
;cal knowledge, the strength and hada; • aM,
opinion, were the cerrectives that rtir,
he
Constitution, to guard it and beautitjat.-
ny had been ti ipled, those guards had i'ar ou
:d within the same pariud, and the 0.4•4 s i 7'
named able to decide on its own intre6 t 'ran
:curacy of th It _A— _e empire.h h been reu,LLJ,
• States had also been free, but the tav
tons had been over turned by nativfausla
re generals. This had happened, bui c end
ea a large population, locied up in slare
le to resist the-effurts of ae army. bat
ry the whole weight of the ciail peels
eat the army, which was subject to the •
and controul of Parliament. The arms r
nanded by the King, but only tinted b
ament. The influence of public opinitis
icr safeguard against its attempts. lilefle
aC
nly, but every British soldier carried tote
ides his military virtues, a consciouinte J •
ights under the constitution of his come)
ea
ghts and wishes that belarreed to themes , jel
state. In the languaele of a great p 4 A,
I
scorn of death in Freedom's sacred cause,
cebora though:, that league wi:b freesisaishin.'
15 national character which couple:aid
and that ha.i nude the scene of Wain
ting, not only by the brilliant *sc
aleur, but by the triumph of the balk
on. Alarm had been expressed India
it diffused through the nation, bat at V
ioned that military spirit ? The t •
closed ; the existence of the great
a military spirit had subdued. The end
ed it, and when once produced !lowest 1
? Was it thought that a mere word ma
t, or indulging in the ridicule of thaw
adecy the freedom of their country. Tls
is would be to dig deep and wide theft*
a Listing peace. He regretted the lenge.
Oren held respecting the military, and de
ids which even the foibles of those mci
it'd, who, whilst the House were sit*.
ty, had shed their best blood, and acLon •
of Great Britain and of Europe. 1: es
ungrateful to suppose they W(Alli ors
eir country. But they were proof Aga"
its, and it might be said of them nd an
:ro, that they were protected from
;neatness of the triumph which the,
—(hear • w
WYNNE was not conscious at whit tact
alluded to by the Honourable Gendol
uttered against these most heroic individtea
given their country the ex,e-erle of. g
the whole time he had been in Pelham°.
t remember one syllable spoken disreafsl"
ards them—( Near, hear, hear). ho,
GRANT explained, that be alluded too la
hrown even on the foibles of that VW,
to the perpetual insults which they taai'' • -
press -e (Bear).
'ILLIAM WYNNE centended, that
f the press was directed against the .oalee ii
series with which the army were Jistigaw. b
Lich the Gentlemen of whom it was Coeur •
eally no part themselves. (hear, bear.)..
Honourable Gentleman think that the irrll
those fopperies, or to be allowed to
tipments every mouth To call' doe
the Army- was 100 absurd—they sale
tc
other persons. The Honourable
spoken of the darn-ion of po eae
I free thoughts, even att:ung.t solJiets ; 1".
!d much whether a mecLieg
led what was their powei a under tne
year
ion. Suppose an racer mad enouga
rsool
this Rouse, and turn all its WTI.