Star.
London, England, 1819-11-25 00:00:00

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ceeding to distussion under such an influence, have
. : trarperately decided?—(Hear, hear). One thing war
.- pow that these misrepresentations were ex-
..
•• that a gr eat deal of the gravamen was done
: .y. Undoubtedly the Meeting at Manchester was
--.-. tended with great calamities. • Much suffering and
loss of lives had taken place ; in deploring their oc-
- •' currence every humane mind would sympathize, and
in that feeling he would yield to no man. He knew
• well the nature of the artifice too successfully prac-
tised by. those who endeavoured to pervert the public
.•
717. ": judgment by unfounded aggravations. Suppose any
- one of these said one hundred persons were slain.
' Suppose he answered—No, six only were destroyed.
" Six only !" would be the exclamation. 0, you
barbarian ! is ii thus you trifle with the sacrifice of
• life ?" This was .the common trick. The
man who reduced the exaggeration to the reality was.
• held up to the Palle Indignation, and Was at once
..• proclaimed the unfeeling champion of inhumanity—
• (Hear, hear).—The Agents who were thus employ-
ed knew their lessons well—they were the• tricks of
1793 and 1791: they were the too successful expe-
dients of a Marat and a Robespierre—( Hear, hear).
But to whom were these deplorable calamities to be
attributed? Was it not, he would say, to those
who were actuated by selfish objects of ambition ?
No, he 'would not say ambition ; he would not
squander such a sentiment as that motive implied
on such base aspirations—(Hear, hear, hear)._
They t% ere to he attributed to those who sought mis-
chief for mischief sake—who ran the race of ruin,
not to rise upon that ruin, but to contemplate the
havoc and desolation they produced—who would
agitate their country with storms, though with the
conscious incapacity of being able to direct the
whirlwind—( Hear, hear). They were the crimes of
those outcasts of society, who would make society
itself an outcast in the dissolution of its elements—
(lL.ar, hear, hear). It is to them the widowed mo-
ther and the orphan child can trace their miseries.
Oa their heads be f9r ever fixed the responsibility
of all the blood that has been shed(Cheers).—
This being the case, could nothing be seen in the evils
they all lamehted but a party question ; and were
those evils, for pasty purposes, to be attributed to Mi-
nisters ? It was pretended that a Court of Law
could not entertain this question ; that the Bar of that
House was the place for investigating it. It hap-
pened, however, unfortunately for Gentlemen who
might be disposed to make speeches upon the sub-
ject, that some blundering fellow obtained a Rule
the other day in the Court of King's Bench against
the Constables who dispersed the Coventry Meeting,
And thus destroyed a fine subject for debate. From
the conduct of the Magistrates being trumpeted be-
fore the Se,sion, as the greatest outrage and atrocity,
for the inve,tigation of which that House only could
form the proper tribunal, it now appeared that they
were -to be called upon, not to punish the Magistrates
.if guilty, but to try lether they could have spoken
to Mr. Nadin three-quarters of a minute before they
did--(A laugh).—With his Hon Friend, the Member
for Yorkshire, he doubted whether that HOuse was
the proper tribunal. He would not agree with
the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. Phillips)
• that 'if the Magistrates were innocent, no mischief
could arise from putting them on their trial...—
He deprecated the argument, teat innocent men
ought not to fear, but seek, trial. What an opinion
such men must have of the consummation of human
felicity !. As far as his F.rwer went, he would never
suffer a man, whom he knew to be innocent, to be
dragged daily, ander the misconstruction cf the Pub-
lic, before the bar, with the consciousness of his inno-
cence alone to support him. Ile admitted, he was
even prepared to contend, that even justice ought to-
be dealt between man and man. In former times, and
in other countries (certainly never in this happy land)
favour and affection had sometimes been strewn to
the higher in preference to the lower classes of so-
ciety. At present, however, in consequence of one
of those oscillations in the human mind, which
seemed, occasionally, to take place, with reference
to every subject of human interest, there appeared
to be a very prevalent disposition to presume in
favour of the lower against the higher classes.—
He by no means blamed this disposition. If any in-
equally wcre allowed to exist between them, the
preponderance ought certainly to be on the side of
the former. But when a case occurred in which the
higher classes were immediately concerned, it was a
disposition that ought not to be allowed to operate
against them. Now, what kind of equal justice could
be administered between the traitors of the IGth
August, and those who suppressed the treason, if the
Amendment proposed by the flight Hon. Gentleman
was acceded to by the House? Those who had en-
deavoured to set the country in a flame would be
allowed to traverse their indictments, and to go to
their trial at the period which pleased them ; those
who had exerted themselves to defeat their machi-
nations would be allowed no choice, no challenge,
but would be put on their trial immediately. Those
who were accused of crime would be permitted to
go to trial when they liked, and the witnesses against
them would be examined on oath ; while the accusers
would be tried to-morrow at the Bar of that House,
on evidence not given under any such solemn sanction.
And this was what his llonourable and Learned
Friend opposite, with the bandage over his eyes and
the balance in his hand, held out to the House as strict
. justice! That the House itself were fully aware of
• the difference of evidence taken on oath and taken
without that sanction, was evident, from the fact that
all cases in which their own immediate interests, or
those of their Constituents were involved, they inva-
riably referred to the consideration of a Committee,
before whom evidence could be heard on oath. To
put the injustice of the proposed proceeding in a
stronger point of view, he begged the House to con-
template the result under either alternative. Sup-
pose the House of Commons, by a vote of the majo-
iity, should find that no blame was imputable to the
Magistrates of Manchester, would that save them
from a prosecution in a Court of Justice? No; the
inquiry would merely furnish evidence against them,
disclosetheir car, and send them prejudged to another
Court. If, on the contrary, a majority of that House
found the Magistrates guilty of the offencewith which
• they were charged, and address the Throne to expel
them from the .Commission, would that save them
from a prosecution in a Court of Justice? No.
Such would be the equal justice of the case 1 In
opinion, therefore, it was morally impossible for

bialinecgt by others
, and who
he would wish others to deal rim, to agree
awnisyhmedantowfhoollodwulthy
as considered
°sureg dermal e the
oof sdue
inch as he had just described. He did not attribute
to an Amendment, the effect of which would be
to the Right Honourable Gentleman any such de-.
the—he was at a
inent had been proposed by any of
Align, but he would frankly say, that if the Amen -
loss howto denominate them—the white-hatted gentry,
he should suspect that they had a double same in view.,
If by the evidence of persons not examined on oath
the House should be surprised into a decision against.
the Magistrates, their vengeance would be indulged.
If, on the contrary, the Magisteates should be ac-
quitted by the House, they would have a new ground
of clamour against the House. Either result would
be delicious to those Gentlemen. In the one event.
they would crush their enemies, in the other they
would undermine the Constitution. Ile would now
say a few words on the main subject, of which the
House appeared to have almost lost sight—namely,
the Speech from the Throne. In that Speech, the
state of the country had been painted in colours, such
as those who advised the Crown had seldom before
been under the painful necessity of employing. That
the picture was not overcharged, however, he had a
right to presume—as no allegation to that effect
had been made frost; any quarter. With the ex-
ception of the Honourable Baronet opposite, no one
who had touched on the Meeting at Manchester had
spoken of the designs of the movers of that Meeting
as otherwise than moseatrocious. That Honourable
Baronet had talked of the flags used on that occasion,
as mere matters of parade. But was any one so blind
as not to know that banners, ribbons, and other such
devices, were frequently as clear indications of pur-
pose as words? When some years ago an orange
cockade was frequently worn in Ireland, would it
have been an answer to the complaints made of such
a practice to say, " what signifies a yellow ribbon ?"
Such things had great signification. Who but the
Honourable Baronet could doubt that the flags of the
Meeting at Manchester meant defiance? What did
the inscription " Universal Suffrage or Death" mean,
hut that those displaying it were solicitous for that
which was incompatible with the Constitution, and
that they were ready to purchase it with their blood?
Could such a Meeting be called legal? Was it pos-
sible that any one could imagine it:could be so?
Could it be so considered in common sense? And
let it be remembered, the Law was held to be the
perfection of common sense. He would appeal, on.
this subject, to the Gentlemen opposite—to the Whigs
s—nay, to the Whiggissimus. He would ask him
whether if, in the year 1715, an assembly of 100,000
men had met, With white roses in their hats, and
is Legitimate Monarchy" embroidered on their flags ;
and if any unfortunate Tory had stood up in Parlia-
ment, and had protested that those symbols meant
Inothing—that white was no colour—and that " Le-
gitimate Monarchy" referred to the Family just
established, he would not have been scouted, and
a Law have been passed by the Whigs of that
day at least is strong as the Riot Act?—(llear).---
After some further observations, to the same effect,,
the •Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to animad-
vert, in forcible terms, on the unceasing efforts now
made to mislead the lower classes, who must, neces-
sarily, constitute the great strength and power of
every country, and to whose interests the most scru-
pulous attention ought to be paid ; for he would say,'
in the language of 'Goldsmith
" Princes or Lords may fleutish or may fade,
A breath can make them, as a breath has made ; '
But a bold peasantry, their country's pride,
When once destroy'd, can neyer be supply'd r
To this he would willingly subscribe; and cordially
as he agreed with it, he must also contend that nothieg
could be more destructive to its vital interests, than
attempts to disparage the Magistrates. If once the
official duties should be rendered odious, by whom
watild its functions be performed ? It was possible
to elect new Members of Parliament, the Sovereign
might create new Peers, but if the Magistracy was
destroyed, it could not be supplied ; and by such
an event society would be more disorganised than
by all the declamation or violence of the disaffected,
A ti_ able Lord had remarked upon what he termed
the contradictory conduct of Government; that on,
'one occasion, when it was proposed to refer an in-
quiry to a Court of Law, a Bill of Indemnity had
been passed to prevent it. Now this was perfectly
true; but the ground on which the Bill of Indemnity
had been passed was, that as large powers had been
granted by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act,
and as many proceedings had taken place on secret
inforMation, upon a pledge that it should not be re.
vealed; and as it would be impossible to go into a
Court of Law without giving up the sources by
which information was obtained, the indemnity'
was called for from Absolute necessity. Another
topic that had been introduced was, that of Par-,
liamentary 'Reform. The Right Honom'able Gen-
tleman, in his opening speech, had cautioned him
that the time would arrive when it would be ne-
cessary to re-consider the measures that had been
adopted. He did not mean to say he should, on
all occasions, resist Parliamentary Reform ; but
he thought more of hazard than advantage wctild
result from the attempt, and upon these grounds hi
should resist any advance. His Majesty s Ministers
had no personal interest in resisting Reform, because
if the fianchise should be transferred from loraham,
Peterborough, and Wirichelsea, to Manchester, Bir-
mingham, and other large towns of the kingdom, the
presumption was, that they would gain additional
strength on their side of the House. The House, as
constituted, though not subserviently pliable to, yet
faithfully represented the interests of the People. The
spectators in Europe consiiered this country, in saving
itself, saved Europe, by a long and useful war ; a
war of efforts without example, and privations such
as were never before borne. If the war were a sin,
it was the sin of the People ; and however it might
be now decried by the Opposition, was 'undert *ken
for the good of Europe and the liberty of mankind.
That war was undertaken for the overthrow and de-
struction of all tyranny ; and in that war they had
triumphantly succeeded. To say that Reform would
tranquillize the public mind, was more thee any man
in his senses could believe. The views of the Radical
Reformers, if realised, would sweep away every thing
held sacred ; for they would have a Government -oi
passion and of will, and not of reason and of law.—
He did not think the sway of the popular will would
lead to an immediate scramble for all property ; but
be thought it would snake the House of Commons
•

the mere slave and puppet of the popular feeling,'
Proper concession should not belelaysei toes long ;:
but precipitate concessions led to hormet in it neigh- I
bowing country, which wise man woulsl avoid, in
England. The House should .not bend to popular
will, or be led away by temporary popularity. There
were quiet and loyal millions, who looked up to the
Government for protection, and they should be pro-
tected. There were seditious persons possessing a
very dangerous influence, who should be put down;
and if they and their abettors could only be put down
by vigorous measures—those measures should and
would be resorted to without delay—( Cheers).
Mr. BROUGHAM, after bespeaking the usual
candour of the House, in consideration of the lateness
of the hour, said, he must begin by joining with tbe,
Right Honourable Gentleman in the eloquent eulo-
gium upon the incalculable, the hardly to be ex-
pressed value of our Magistracy, who not only acted
gratuitously, with a few exceptions on the part of the
Manchester Magistrates, but were necessarily exposed
to the discharge of disagreeable functionC He la-
mented the transactions now under discussion, prin-
cipally on account of the authority of the Magistracy,
since the only alternative in preserving the Peace was
the Constitutional Magistracy or the Military—
(Cheers).—He should lament deeply the result of
those transactions, if the Magistrates implicated were
not separated from the Magistracy in generaL The
inquiry proposed was the only means of effecting this
separation. If the inquiry were granted, the guilt,
the indiscretion, or the unconstitutional vigour, if
there were such, of the Magistrates in question,
would be ascertained, and the body of Magistracy
remain unaffected. Upon the particular Magistrates,
upon them alone, either punishment directly, or the
censure of the House, or removal from office by
the Crown, should fall ; and the Magistracy in ge-
neral would be free from the stain which really
must fall upon them, if the impression which now
existed was left unremoved.-- ( Loud cheering ).
If the impression remained, if it should be believed
that the course of justice was impeded, that undue
powers were apt to be exercised, that undue stretches
of official power were practised, that military force
was applied at the pleasure of men in office, then
the catastrophe was consummated, and he must join
in deploring that the confidence of the- country in
the Magistracy must be shaken.. He would now ad.
vert to the observations on the Yorkshire Meeting.
The Right Honourable Gentleman and the Noble
Lord had said that there had been a compromise be-
tween the Whigs, with Earl Fitzwilliam at their
head, and on the other, those whom the Right Hon.
Gentleman, forgetting his promised and original ab-
stinence, called white hats. This agreement was
said to benovel, unconstitutional, curious, and in-
consistent with the character of Earl Fitzwilliam
and with the Amendment now proposed. The Whigs
indeed were all anxious that a supposed encroach-
ment on the Constitution should be specially investi-
gated, and that redress should be given, if that were
required. At that meeting there was an agreement
referring the subject to Parliament for inquiry and,
redress. Parliamentary Reform, which had no more
to do with the object of the meeting than tythes or
the poor rates, and on which they did not agree, wa,
by consent excluded from consideration. The Right
Honourable Gentleman was naturally much offended
that they had ;vied so wisely; and followed his own
eimeoplp, thnues :ndood, ke generally sailed much
nearer the Kind. (A laugh.) Hence all jokes and
jibes; because the points on which they differed had
nothing to do Isith the purpose of meeting, and those
on which they agreed were its sole object, and con-
tained in the requisition. This was the head and front
of Lord Fitzwilliam's offending. This was the con-
spiracy of which:his Lordship and his friends were ac-
cused—a conspiracy, he knew not for what purpose.
Persons of as acute observvtion as were in the coun-
try, and unconnected with any class, described to him
the veneration, and respectful attention, with which
the Noble Lord (Milton) and his father were listened
to, even by the humblest person present. Having dis-
posed of this part, he had exhausted a considerable
part.of the Rt. Hon. Gentleman's speech. • As to the
legality or illegality of the Meeting, no opinion was
given upon his side of the House, because it depended
upon facts to be established in evidence. The Right
Hon. Gentleman, and the Noble Lord, had brought
forward no documents which supported their state-
ments. He lamented that the Hon. Member for Dub-
lin had forgotten what• he so wisely and eloquently
urged respecting Ireland—that coercion, if used at
all, should be the last means used, and conciliation
should be the first. That he had made use of his con-
veoient 1/s, excited his regret, and would be heard
with grief in his own country, as well as in this.—
The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had
been absent, and learnt the nature of the transactions
frcm a file of Newspapers put-at once into his hands.
This was unfortunate, for the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had made his extracts very incorrectly—
(Hear, hear). For instance, the extract from the
speech at York was incorrect. It omitted, not from
design, but very conveniently, the words respecting
the legality of the Manchester Meeting—" As far as
hitherto appeared" (Cheers). The legality was spoken
"of. with similar caution at Cumberland and West-
moreland. All that was said was, that it was prime
lick legal, and that inquiry should be made whether
it was legal or not? The Right:Hon. Gentleman had
replied to the Hon. Baronet
.(Str F. Burdett) only by
old worn-out and stale remarks on Parliamentary
Reform, and left untouched a speech which must
live in their recollections as the most consoling, able,
wise, -and, for practical effect in preserving the
peace, and inducing the deluded portion of the
people to return to the exercise of good sense, the
most useful speech ever heard within those walls.
It was more convenient to quit that speech than to
answer it, and to bring forward statements which had
not been found in any arguments in that House, and
might have perished in the eolumns in which they
appeared, so far as he knew. But he would spew
the substantial correctness of the facts which had
been triumphantly urges as misrepresentations. The
Hononrable Member for Norfolk (Mr. Coke) had
said, that Major Cochrane had interfered to pre-
vent a woman and child from being sabred. Major
Cochrane pointed out some inaccuracy in this.
But. Major Cochrane did not deny that a woman and
child had been sabred—(Hear, hear, hear). This had
never been denied, and he pledged himself• to prove
it true, if the House would give him leave. It was
I also true, that Major Cochrane had interfered in ano.

to prevent the /*entree tt
o
hHaodnosaiurtlheamtMtiber
dswestol: w
thhaoet tempting to escape
of
r.
t
from
with
c thise excessive i
circumstance
candour,s6ta'encer
ate:
tacking camethyerkpart ho
wet statementbDtlnew nfihde.
twr,erceonntrotadtoictiexdbethil.lodbead::o'll/,'
deception.
hadiad beeninference
afterwards,drawnwi t sharpened,h
tide Newspapers.
err
ion from
Meetings were instruments of
maprebvresen:::erth, ienrfarncri,srsletaprr:es:netdati atUnt
Mr. DUNDAS here begged to state. in
to the Public, that the swords had not been
for the purpose of the Meeting ; the swords
sent to the cutler, but it was in the usual
(Hear, hear I from the Ministerial side).
Mr. BROUGHAM.—If bis lion. Friend
lowed him to proceed, he would have saved
trouble of making the observati( ns he had
He meant to say, that the statement in
fore the Coroner's Inquest was, that the sveads
been sharpened with a View to that particular
He hoped the House knew him too well to e,
that he would shelter himself under a quibble.,
was evidently imputed to him. The swords )
sent to be sharpened before the Meeting, as at
in evidence. They had been so sent some few
before the Meeting was callea, and after-
of calling it "as formed. The Magistrate. a:,
men were aware of this intention, and in cot.:
sent the swords to be sharpened. The ci
was drawn from the knowledge of the intention
which the Magistrates were fixed. AnieLe•
of that inference was, that no such usage ~,a
prevail; and that with respect to a corps eta,.
existed so short time, it was absurd to talk of
He did rot shrink, therefore, from the c,
that the swords were sharpened for the pullers....
he was in error, he desired to have his
But if errors ten thousand times more ni
could be detected, it was nothing to the
Some errors and some falsehoods must ale ars
pear on questions always disctkseu, thank Geo,
so much interest by the People of this cep
Granting for a moment that the Manchester it
was .illegal, there still remained that important
tion—Were no illegal means used in its
He conceived it would. not be contended, did
illegal Meeting. was to-be dispersed by illegal
He approved of the interference of the He,
cause it was a question of deep
public im7
and involved, in a great degree, their 6,113.
it meant to be contended, that the functions of
House, admitted, as it was, to be the Grand
of the Country, were su wine;} .iiireient, No
tially distinct from its other privilege-, that they
exist at all times without one interfering wi.'
When that House directed any man to be
by their Attorney-General, was it ever Eeric:.:siy
bated whether hos crime was one cognizable by
a not? Did they stop to ask such a question it
.cases of Mr. Swan, of Sir Manasseh Lo, ez, of
Reeve, of Mr. Stockdale, or of M,
The Learned: Gentleman, after strongly cc
upon an appearance of levity which 'he grievt
any HonourableGentlenian entertain upon thee,
observed, that he did not consider the qt
Parliamentary Reform as immediate]) tonnes
the question before biro. Whenever that qiitetien
come before the House, be I,ad &vett his (-pi;
favour ; and • whet ever the prover time for
] into it should arrive, he ..ouid rot neglect his ,
I The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, adia
to the late trials, observed, that they were indtt
triumph of the law. The m,nner i r which the
had been administered on those Oceasioes. see
eterruil honour on the Learned Judge who prce.'
and would be sufficient to bring out the chae,
of the country more pure and stronger than
The law there.had been found sufficient .o
own force ; and he considered, that if sear.i....
son existed, it would be also found strong e:
pot them down. If it should not be so, he
attribute it to the circumstance of its not .
ministered with a steady hand. It was now
late to complain of the licentiousness of the
—too late to complain of the gross and
gusting passages which were sent before the
lie, and which he lamented as much as any
But (continued Mr. Brougham) who were to
if the Press was licentious, but they who
taken any steps to correct it by the proper
tion of those remedies which the law;
He thanked. the House for their indulgence.
remarks were sincere; and he hoped they
received as from one who would rather be'
of anarchy, than survive the Constitution• of
Country—(Loud cheering).
As soon as Mr. BROUGHAM had concluded,
ral Members rose at the same time to espial
Aniong these were Mr. S. WORTLEY, Lord Mit..
Mr. GLADSTONE, and Mr. CANNING, but from
loud and repeated call of « Question," the ,
their observations could not be heard.

&rangers were then ordered to withdraw, when the
was put and carried without a division, think, "
stood, not unanimously.
Upon Mr. Tvramtv's Amendment, which was by
or addition to the Address, the Division took place,
appeared; For the Amendment 150
Against it 381
M
The II °use then adjourned at againstco'C it7iv ioeiri
isMosx%.

The Adjourned Debate, in the House of L
on the Address, was carried on last night.
House did not rise till between five and si:
this morning, when the House divided on the
ment, which was negatived by 381 to 150,
Majority, in favour of Ministers. of 231. The
of Lord GRINVILLE'S friends have abandoned
Whigs, except Lord NUGENT.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT'S Speech was much
plauded," not only for its ability, but its
He threw out a sly challenge to the Soticrrowtik
NERALj whom he." would readily engage, on alo
point, there or elsewhere." The SOLICITOR-60i.
RAL last night pronounced the Manchester Sleeting
trfasonable, on the following legal syllogism
The object of the Meeting was Universal Suffrage
Universal Suffrage was synonimous with subversion
of. the Constitution—ergo the object of the Meeting
was the subversion of ;he Constitution, which
treasoull

,totINDON t .Pnnied and published by ism. Kart. ricildt*
. . ;.-. Dace, TeMV.e- ban

4

rte,.
escape.
t Member
tat die
Meetirp,a
osi Cie sai
rvation,
nce was, ;
nd that Pub t
don, But
te, in ord.rt
m ring f,.
)ece
rords bad
usual coy
Friend had
saved hira
had mad
in evidence
he swArds h
rticular day
ell to
quibble, %AL
words had'
ag, arpci,
same ft:w d
ter the inten
itraa, .1: d y
lii coi,equA
The a talc •
e intention s••
,n0.,.e.
g e ~,,u
orps %AL,.
to talk of
the ct luau•
-
he pui pose.
error corn
more nurce,
:o the Fut
lust aly,Ays
hank Geo,
this ci.untiv
Chester Met..
import:nu.
its disperi
tended, that
illegal
the Hot:4,
dic :
it riihts. W
unctions of
Grand laq:
[1:1 era, No
, that :11ey
g with the °the,
to be prosec
ver seriously •
Ignitable by'
a question in
Lo, ez, of .
Nlelviile
gly commen •
he grieved to
upon the tub,..
the question
y connected a.
hat question
his cpii.ion tai
irne for emery.
ic:mg.licca,t his
were ind,
t wi'icb the •
asions.
e who Frt. t'
Int the
thin '.l.lore
.o At-ett
sedi .
trong e:
o, he could al
is not being
It was now too
ess of the Press
gross and dis•
before the P
:h as any malt
) were to bi
Ley who bad
proper appli•
law prescribe'
ndulgence.
d they would.
ter be the
Lstitution • of
concluded, sere-
le to explain.--
', Lord Micros,
;, but from
the import d
I.
when the Add'
*ugh, as we un.lu
was by way ofri!.
k
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