Star.
London, England, 1829-04-06 00:00:00


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".ere ea ktils.iiiiik NW Volly of intiretsal mileage width km 011-talayad itwll amen, shr reran* ; I have sd now
and ell the Mischief o radical tenni. The great eke *Path al Clergy on as ebb aceadaa; Isre4e-e boa it
.olit
danger' to be :apPrebeeded is, that. in 'destroying the ~._..,""" fer._.bieb 'be" "',_"ldlin" burst "'fn." dil.by d Pim"
....sseg .i. array ilf• Mat she measure. erwy Cords, with reapeec
principle on which the revolution of 1888 was founded. in the opinion ~f Mr. pima, his „,,,,„„„a at .he wing .eg the
Ss • basis, you may pelf down'and destroy the a hole Valets with Intl ad, whatever I have bees able to collect el that
'structure of the Constitution Which rests upon it. We are great mates opieion is, that be said hen err would eve los (u i.".
sold that only six or seven amain Catholic Peers can be; tole"' Licbe actel, """.:iti:ta fulec"blivasfficirpet"::::irktyyo.f W hat.
admitted into this House; and of what conseqnence Min. gaining : but this I know', that that great insansliJ say that If he be.
Mat 'a 'Writhe'. be in the ilesi,iou of any question ? 'Weed the peopie. et Fagiand would he agitate:l cr teedeeed • allay
Suppose chat we shou'd have a Stwereign on the throne by it. into:electing,, he would never introduce or pone boo diem.
who, like Charles 11. was concealrdly a Papist. though tendon of Peflaanieet. . The Nolde Earl was ciwered at the ma
clusis: of hiespeecis, although the questing was called foe by severalprofessing himself a Psotestasir, What is to pretreat hem N
(roils introducing as many Catholic Pets, into this
House as bellicose+ ? Though Ido not mean to concede Lord PLUNKET.T rose, an,f, titer a short tire,
succeeded in obtaining a hearng. My Lards, I have
that half ad• zee" Catholic Nets in this' Hr use would mete. d myself is, this period of the debate in tone.
nil make a'very great sites cion in its C.iiistitution— que. c. o' a declaratn a made by she Nol I- Earl, .Jana
ow that lit is a small e'u Ober as reipeces its Votes.— cumosetating on some of the petit sin this 'o eject,
'Several great measures bait been carried in this .vhicb the N hie and Leveed Lord ptesented, that ho
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House by even a smaller majnsity. It Is talk' should t.ike an oppo.tnniey, when the measure that in
also, that probably but a few—some'SO or 40—Mounts coistemplasini came before their L edships, to sho
Catholics may be admitted into the' Other House. l ,hat, in its character,. it was 'opposed Cr the principles of
contend their introduction may be Peoductive of vet, the Proiestant religion in.Eag:and, and to the fund*.
great effects, if they be active, as respeits noillaitses is neenal 1 ins of the C. nstitution e Littlish's' at the pos.
to.,t House; but, let me ask, is there DO sash r mode oi a iod of the . Reforms ion. and the Revolution; and
obtaining seats in that House but by the suffrage 0 he said he w•iuld undes ta Ire to prove all this to dens.m.
freeholders? The Bill itself is one to which 1 feel the 'motion. Mr Lords. biter the are umeasts of tai] N Me
strongest objection, because if your Lordshi s look int. and Learned Friend ion the Wssoliack. and my Noble
its provisions ion will hod no Bill was eves more 111. Ft tend behind me (Earl Grey), 1 must own I listened
cautiously or delusively penned. It provides in i 0 at•tia isi cite curiosity to the arguments adduced by the
shape for that advice ss loch may be give,. by theAlinisteee Noble and Learned Lnrd. as an answer to my Nobie
of the ClOW11,1%h;, may all but one bs: Ito Sian Catholics. Ft scuds. I must say. my Lords, that this curiosity has
If there should be tut one 'w two. Protestant Minister% I cannot 'seen completely, but most agreeably, disappointed.
see bow they can maintain their opinions; and peril go oo the .Glee Noble and Leonard Lord *ill allow one to say....
maintenance of their upitaiun might depeud the maiuteuance of tbs
PrOtestant Costnitution. I cannot see that iu such a Ministry and I say it a ith the greatest feelings • f respect for
there is much probability that as effectual opposivon would be him— (het his entwines's of alarming and appalling
d anger. which he had stated lie had found in the car.
mask to the measure of such Ministers by a Protestant Load
Chancellor; because I can very well see that a Protestant Lord c
lith.stanCee of this Bill, sere stated on his own high au-
Chanceilor may be very much wider the it !Purace oaf a powers,
Prime Minister..—(Laughing). Your Lords..ipa have heard serest thorny, bait were unstipposted by any argso.ents. Or any
deal about oath-making mid oath-taking ; that tome ut those üb. facts, or any patlianientary or historical documents.
My L-cds I shall go at .once to what is essential to the
jected to were by bind of stratagem. You Lye beard ..f the oath.
required by the Aceof Henry V 111. relative to the King's sure.
Act, and I shall defend it on the broad gsound that it
mach, and subeequently by that in the time of Elisabeth ; jut I .
shall carry you bath to Acts mere than • century preceding....- le oecessal? in the safely. if hot the eakence c-f the
Magna Cbarta itself, which .0 distinctly maintained the Ktug's country. My Lords it is said that the principle of es-
supremacy as necessary to protect the Thrum and the propk sae pediency on which the measure is founded cannot jut-
thisthe conduct of Statesmen. A Right Revetend
country front the encroachment of Papal authority. grew out al
of, and was only a. Conationion toutadenl on those liberties which ~ , . . .
ros owe i . mate lad ought attaigi.ed this principle as an inserts.
were derived irons our Satin' atocestors—(Hen. bear).
then gust& of. the King's .upreonacy to provisions which ate can- *lent goo tend for polls ical conduct ; but, with all respect
turns older than the period of Elie tbeth, and the prsivi.iou oaf kes fur that Rem :send Prela e, I shall shqw that it is lAA-
-1 iftajtis afar Mora, was made as much on Weill of the civil and
*ions. Its what has been said against his ab--servettun I
religious liberty of the people of this cuentry. as on behalf of the
Concur—when no principle a f justice is violated. ripe-
trown's supremacy. It was neither less nor mote than a resolution
protecting the Crown front the consequences sat bevies the all* diency is the best and only safe guide to Statesmen.
glance of hs subjects transferred to the Papal S. e. Your Lord. But what principle of justice does the present measure-
ships are nut much in the habit, fortunately, of consulting those a
viotale? Is it a violatson of justice to admit millions
of the inhabitants
_ of this country to the privileges of
sacsackienint
obortrstion weihidichartnhise
fMorempubechrsliateactte
eileealherpetoott-psirsiccanb—tatnA.
Loath). Um if your earaships will permit ow, I will sloe what Citizens: How are they excluded from these Kiel-
ooe great authority says with respect to the necessity of these leges? IS it not by Acts of Parliament founded on
Hiss very principle of .expedience 1 If it be demon• laws. Lord (tale. in speaking of the King's supremacy. anions that
deo old o-ilt of allegiance aucluded in it that of supremacy, and
slimed that the es;.ediency on which the exclusion was
that the obligation of both is complete: he further adds, that to
my ski Pope bat any power in this county la cameo, to the oath I,,usided had passed away—that the cause why it was
el allegiance ; and distinctly says,that by that oath the Pope I. shut called into operation is now over borne by others ; if the
mat from asserting any supremacy within.the tealtn. Teat learned country has been brought it t, difficulties and danger
penes had observed that grievous erromon this head bad crept in
from acting on the ground of exoediency, ate not his
and made such program, that it was necessary they should be re. ~ , s
_ M
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tan it win become ne.mssary is let to., subjects of this realmrealmAi .je ty inster* justified in making the principle of
that the piker oath was virtually taken in the oath of alit. expediency, is. t of justice, the principle of their se-
tons? I have always understood that the principle laid
&nes. Lard 114 k repeats that they who would Gen theme ache
• ligation of these fetters mot now take the additioital oath of
doss by my N bit Frien.l-11 t shimmed from by the
-supremacy. To deny that the King's power is supreme it, the goose
Noble and Lessened Lcd who ha, just sac down—as the
Is anther mire nor *so than revolution. It was assented as a
strongargument in tastier of the repeal of the Test Act ; and an pritsciole . f slut Constitution, aid of every sound and
Onuses' bad neon made•to it in this debate by a bight lire Prelate. (tee Constitution, is, that ptiveleg•-s and ft atchises are
that the Legislature was busted to give way to the sense of the the tights of all the prone
—that the print p e of tI•
people as eaptessed in their petitions. Perhaps the Right lice.
elusion is tile exception—and that the eagle., of the
Prelate °Victualled the circumstance that the greater part of those
Petitions represented the Established Church as the greatest pow• people ale not to be suspen. ed uron any principle bast
sible grievance and an iutokrable abuse. The Ilight ltor. Prelate of expediency, or, I may say, I.oloieal necessity of the
and Noble Lords will see. 'Morton', what sort ter icovitY is Pre' iglied degree. The people, ire this case, claim du
vided for the Church by the 11W, which proposes to admit palmate •
to make laws, and to adetionster the laws. Thee
to a seat in this or iti the other Hume right of Parliament who do not ac-
knowledge the Kiiiis supremacy in matters spiritual and reclesia- claim the right to be admitted to sit on Parliament, and
laic, and who, doubtless, as Roman Catholics, ate united itmeinion to hold the executive offices of the State —mud before
with those who luuk upon the Established Church as a great gene.
)otl take away the common eight of the sulsject, yeu
'lntend abuse. The oath the Hill Imposes gives up a legislative
must show that not a suppositiou-, bet a teal necessity
enactment, the claim of the King so far to the duty of his thejects.
We are told that by ibis 11111 the interests or the Church of Kugland exists. Is this claim to respect the principle of 'egad
and the Established Church of Ireland will be mutually strendtbased and justice noothiog. ? When it is clearly proved that
and secured. If I thought so I would be the readiest man in the expediency is against the princille of exclusion, is that
world to vote for the measure. I deny that it will. What has been ne.thing ? M 1 Lords, the hostility which prevails in
die tone and tamper pursued by the members of that Association in
'
Ireland,which bearded and defied the Government ot that country. [ eland is not between one part of the people and the
and which has but recently been put down by an Act of Parkameot ? other. It is not between sect and sect—it sets indove •
Hate they not told you that the Established Church interposed .'u .1 against individual—it enters into the fitments oaf
between the tranquilization of Ireland. and is in tact the greatest until-let—it pervades all the
tel tines
of l.f d
i , an • vi-
national grievance? The Bill is described as necessary to give a .
new support to the Church of England: ibis, I suppose, is to sup. "tea in• *awe system. 44 society —{Hear.) It mete
ply the place of that which was taken away last Session for the how all business—it affects ..I 'auks and classes--it
repeal of the Test anal Corporation Acts. I voted against that is found among the rich. the poor. and the licentious—
Act because I believed it would endanger our Established Church; it mingles in every transaction—it breaks down all the
and on the same principle I shall vote against the present Bill
bat sires of dot it poi.ons all enjoyment—it stops all
Willi\ whose abominable proceedings I have alluded to, pledge
themselves to defend in future that Church which they have already illtaCtlatse,and what is the consectoence ? Why, as
described, through the mouthpiece of their orators, as the bane of long as this state of things i, continued, as long as the
Ireland ands grievous nuisance? Many of the rdkioas of di
test ,tie. cote' (protection given to the two religions encore*.
year relative to the Test Acts held neatly the cane language relative
cage their hostility, it is impossible that any tneasuees
to the Established Church of this country. Are their assertions
can be effectual in prs.viding for the safetyof the country.
then, my Lords, deserving of credit, or are they nut? Or, oinks
suet circumstances. can any reliance be placed upon either as likely We have at length become sensible of thebirevils—we are
to conuibuts to the support of a Chinch which they regard with more than seasible—a-e are alarmed at this *LEe of
mutual abhorrence. though for different reasons? Are the assurances • Are we then to
thongs.tae fright nod by a monster of our
and remonstrances of the members of the Established Church con. '
otsu creation ? The people feel in.u.t. as long as that es
tuned in their numerous Petitions to he treated with disrespect.
es regarded as destitute of truth? My Lords, we have beard continued it will be a grievance; to this giievance they
must give vent, and giving vent to the Relevance, pro-
mo:nigh of the statute of Mary in relatiuo to the Ring's supre-
macy, and suppoeting the Pope's power as respects ecclesiastical duce the Catholic Association. If there were no griefs.
and spiritual matters. To these remarks the best answer I ma give
ante, there would be no As.ociation. As long as the
is, that there Is so change in the creed of Rome; and shat the
Catholic religion, as respects the ambition of its head. continues the grievance COlitinties, a chains must be made by the people
mom ash, thou days when this test was eoaske.teg necessary. The for redress; as long as the people make this claim, they
dead/mot that Church I believe are the same to that day 11l vii" must be continua!ly collected into bodies ;as long as they
nt•al matters, as they were in the moat ancient times—at least they
Are so. collected they will continua .lly have leaders. To
cartbi sense
injuduinityoilapigrsetaktedmitreLfasili peelliSidple.tri ti"alfur Oagga, MlC;4l,otrdra.ta, i els, esent their claims, they must select some of that
will not sacrifice the supremacy of the Cr. wo to that of litanies :leeriest amongst them; and the continual existence of
even to religion, by giving my assent to this Bill le I. the bounden Ihe grievance drags into continual existence the sedia
duty of Ministry—looking to the' duty the subjects are bound to
; cou.ness of the Roman Catholic Aura.
pay to the Sovereign, and looking to the consequences of this sea. time and lenti
sure—soeto monks the supremacy of the Crown. Your Lord. elation. I. hus opt mition is prs.duced to the audio•
wisps have beard the speeches of many Peen is favour of the UtU cities of the country. Some persons advise us* vest • ;
—.l have listened with eteat anemone to the speech ot the Noble to time, and the operation of healing elements.—
Earl (Grry)--1 have heard with great corimity those of the new
But time will out lessen ghee danger. My Lords, eacer-
cone -rts; but neither item them, nor from the Noble Karl who
•
has alludd to so many topics, have I heard any new reasons fur tangy as lam now addressing your Lordships, delay
agreeing to this Bill; and after all the arguments I leave bend I wall 0..1y increase the danger, which will goon aggro.
must say the subject seems to ate to be jut where it was beture. I eating from day to day and hone to hour. The Catholics
give credit to the statements which have been made.tbat the inatter have, during the last fif y )ears, beeis advancin in
of the Dill ho capable of being separated, and may be esainined andg
debated &cachet*. I shall take care to examine the clauses of wealth, in khohledge, and in nurobeesj. and looking at
that Ball when discussed seriatim. lu my opinion, it will be attach this notgriont fact, I ask from what source is danger
most to be dreasted? It you will persist in this mo t 0110
better to await the arguments In f of the several clauses of
she Mil in the Committee, anal in that stage endeavour to remove necessary, most unwise, and most unjust system of en-
the consequences. Under these circumatances, I dean for the pres
elusion
t cement myself till we reach that stage of the proceedings. I , ran cannot but keep alive and spread disecte•
toeless it is on that grand that I should leave preferred that a tent and disaffection ; and if so, from whom is danger
pi•poutien should have beets made by the Noble Duke for mita to be apprehended ? Is it not from those who
going tato a Committee to cuisine the realms fur °righted:se, are most rapidly advancing in knolledge, wealth, in•
such a Bill; because It would have been but right that is a i r e
and sadwho • waled be the most sass
esetter el so much anperrenee your Lord.hips should aim Celli once ,power, a
kouwo something more of the grounds of that espediency apes luable bulwa. ks of your institutions, did not the stigma
which you are called to legislate. It has been stated tram a high f exclusion convert all these benefits into the most
aloha-11y, that if their Lordships were in possession of all that deadly „tn.n._
Ministers knew, they would out sample to read the 11.11 a attend
ly the ignominious ono MITA nygts
time. I prefesi lam no frieed to legislating or passing Acts re wm
....4.0 ;eke
most--+r k as liii. ch people were
.. preci.rly... shoes
Immanuel,
-for ree,en, k,,,,„,, only to Ministers theolopiese. it exclusions and disabilities to which they were esplked.
[Waren said that our course well tear if we had a Protestant Kluge I say, that to undeltake for any great length i i time
lietause then no danger was to be apprehended. This. with him, to govern the greet mass of a wealthy and inte.liv
was only at.ground to: objection to she measure, because in yea- ant people on the principle that, io the midst of foss
deriog darns eligible to a set in Parliament. and reeling ow . ..
Kb net to appoint them to thew sionitimis which were institutions, they are to be excluded from the con•
-themild. Ojai of their ambition, would be to etigeoder is that body mon privitepes and bent-fits of those ittltitetiOnet
dissatisfactioo and disaffection; and I will nut consent to peso
is an tradertakicg that is absolutely chinsetieal.-
111 a linger of disaffection to the Threa•—(Heare hear). With re-
If they sic
to be excluded from those privileges, end
homes to Me petitions in (avow of the Bill, mid the respect they '' '""•
'ale sodded to. I am me unwilling to acquiesce to that respect, it -sights to which they •ale as justly entitled as their Prof
1 losepoed they were got up fairly; nofoitbstaionng the number, • esteet fellow subjects, who form but a small minority
'km have been presented against It, I have to 'mem the *path, in the country, it is utterly impossible that they should