Star.
London, England, 1828-04-01 00:00:00

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the day when a better feeling would arise; and he was
confident that there was no mole effectual way of
making corn cheap than by protecting the landed in-
terests. In confirmation of this opinion, he might re-
fer to the history of the last 150 years, when the
old rules of protecting duties, and corresponding
bounties on exportation, were in force. There were
no bounties iacluded in the present Bill, and the
omission was, in his judgment, a defect. The prices
were then steady—they were now variable. Though
he thought the present Bill was better than the last,,
some alteration should be made in the warehousing
system, some improvement introduced in the mode of
taking the averages, and a drawback or bounty should
be afforded on exportation. The Hon. Baronet con-,
eluded by declaring, that in his opinion the pica of
barley and oats should have been decidedly kept up by
the new law. As these would be future opportunities
for discussion, he would not at the then moment intrude
farther upon the House; but the proposition altogether
was not one with which he could profess himself satis-
fied, although he thought it better than that of the last
Session. _ . _

Colonel SIBTHORPE concurred in opinion with the
lion. Members for Wiltshire and Somersetshire (Mr.
"knelt and Sir T. Lethbridge) that it was highly rre-
cessary to keep up the price of bailey and oats. The
quantity of oats imported, he understood, into this
cm.intry from Ireland, in the short period only between
the sth of January and the 22d of March in the present
) ear, had been more than 165,000 quarters; and if he
was not much deceived, it would be found that the
greater proportion of those oats had been previously
br, ught from foreign markets into Ireland, to the de-
struction of the grower here at home. Unless a decided
protection was given by the new law to oats and barley,
a stagnation in the home production of those article.
must be the consequence.

Mr. Secretary HUSKISSON said, he thought the
course pursued by Honourable Gentlemen in now en-
tei ing so much at length into the subject, was some-
what anomalous. He should not at present go into a
ide field of discussion, nor should he have troubled
the House at all, were it not for the remarks of some
lion. Gentlemen, who said they would not make any
remark at all. With respect to what had fallen from the
lion. Gentleman who spokelast, he could assure him
that not a single bushel of foreign oats had, as he sup-
po,ed, been smuggled into Ireland, and from thence
found its way here. Any foreign oats. which came into
the country were openly imported. There was a necessity
for admitting the article, in consequence of the great
dearth which prevailed. But, as he stated before, not a
single bushel was imported in the manner alluded to. It
was not probable that any thing of the kind could have
occurred, or that airy person, for a distant chance of
profit, would run the risk of making such an attempt
4)11 the I,ce of very severe penalties. Tue Member for
Somersetshire (Sir T. Lethbridge) complained of the
ports having been opened to admit the introduction of
foreign oats. Now he thought, if there wac any point
which received general assent towards the close of last
Session, it was the propriety, under existing circum-
stances, of admitting foreign oats into the market. All
seemed to have been fully agreed on the necessity of
,such a step. Indeed this necessity was proved by the
admission of the Hon. Baronet himself, who said, that
between two and three million quarters of foreign grain
found a market here. It would appear, that to satisfy
the Member for Somersetshire, they must introduce
all the regulations which existed in 1814. The Hon.
er said, that at one period of the year the duty
was as high as 2/. Os. Bd. and that even at that high rare
foreign corn found its way into the market The amount
of duty paid at the period alluded to, did not arise from
corn alone. Was he not aware that barley, oats, Indian
corn, and flour paid duty as well as corm? During three
ae. Its of February this year, the duty was 21. 0.. Bd.
bor it he looked to the returns for each week he would
find, that the amount of import was nil, nil, nil. The
price was 51s. the quarter, at this period. The returns
the:el le proved that the Hon. Member's apprehensions
of danger on this point were carried somewh. t too far.
The Honourable Member concluded that, because the
price fell from 60s. to 525. that fall must be the result
of the measure adopted last year. In considering, how.
ever, that tall of price, there were other circumstance;
that should be borne in mind. It most be remembered
that there was an abundant harvest well secured; and
that, at former periods, experience proved the result of
new measures, when proposed, was to occasion a greater
importation, from an apprehension that any new area-
stile might prove unfavourable. Tnos, increased
importation na:urally produced a fall of price. If,
however, the Honourable Member looked to the price
in February last•ywati he would find that it was nearly
the same as ..124 February, and he entertained little
doubt that in July next the price would not vary very
much from what it was in July,. 1827. His Hon. and
Learned Friend (Mr. Ferguson) seemed to apprehend—
seemed to feel sortie alarm, as thinking that the inte-est;
of the gross ers of oats would be overborneby the mea-
sure now proposed. Did his Hon. Friend forget that
last year a material alteration had been made on!ti e
proposed scale, in favour of oats—that the alteration
amounted to the whole difference bete/ern 211. and 25i.
saile no change took place with respect to the wheat ?
Tee protection to oats appeared- tablas to be quite out
or proportion to. that • extended to' oilier articles. It
had been observed in the course of thirdiscn.sion, that
the plan now submitted to the El 'vie differed id no re-
spect from the priipsition of the Member for Dorsetshire
(Mr. Banker) last Session. His proposition• was,' that
the pivot, as it was called, on which tf e scale r tight
to tut ii was 645. The scale now proposed was, however,
quite different in otter respects. Last year the duty
proposed was 225. the price being 60;. the quarter,.
whereas now the duty was 261. Bd. at the same piee.•
The Member for Br idgenorth (Nlr.Whitmore) and other
Hon. gentlemen, professed to abstain from ditcussi n'
at present, but yet' took an opportunity of stating,
though concisely, what their opinions were. In fairness:
to the House and t r the Government, he thought•
those Hon. Gentlemen who had other Resolutions to
propose, should bring them forward now. They would
then have an opportunity of considering them altogether,
and of judging which were most likely to give general
sati•faction. if they had not the arguments of thosei
Honourable Gentlemen, they should at least have their,
Resolutions. His Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitmore)r
said he would oppose the plan now proposed; and he
seemed to think that it was the very same, in ipsitaintis'
cerbir, as the plan proposed last Session. Except in'
one point, there certainly was no great difference. The-
principle of both was to take the two extremities of a'
Proposed scale, and to commence at these extremities
a rise or fall of duties. In the scale ri last year the
• price taken was 70.. at which the duty was to be only'
nominal. The price being 60s. the duty proposed was'
such as would effectually prevent or greatly impede the
admission of foreign corn. He was now free to state, a.
he stated last year, that lie considered 60s. the price off
protection; that at a price between 60s and 655. foreign
corn should be admitted sparingly ; but that above 655.
every facility should be giien. It was distinctly stated'

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List year that the measure then proposed was not ex-
petted to be final, but that it would be open to any im-
provements which experience might suggest. Ilethought
experience, so far as it had gone, hitherto fully justified
the alterations now introduced. It appeared that
500.000 quarters of foreign corn came into the market
when the duty was at 20s. It was fair, therefore, to
conclude that 20s. was not a sufficient protection. It was
upon this ground an attempt was now made by the
proposed scale of duties to throw some additional
impediment—some heavier drag on the introduc-
tion of foreign' corn. By increasing the duty between
the prices of 60s. and 645. the two points contended
for last year, it was thought that all parties might
he satisfied. In the present proposition there was
no change of principle from that of last year. There
were many causes in operation since last Session,
to account for the increased introduction of foreign
grain, which were nut likely to occur again. The
power given to the Crown to authorize importation at
12s. a quarter must have had the effect of causing the
introduction of a larger supply than would have taken
place under other circumstances. In August last they
were blest with fine weather, and the prospect of an
abundant harvest. The natural consequence was, that
the holders of foreign corn were induced to throw it
more rapidly into the market than they would have
done if appearances at home were not so favourable.—
This incident having produced such an effect out of
doors, he fully agreed with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Grant) that they ought to legislate on the principle of
something like an award between fair claims on one side,
and hopes and apprehensions on another, on the prin-
ciple of adjustment between two great and leading in-
ter-sts in the country, two most important classes of
society, either of which might be induced to sup-
pose that their interests were sacrificed to the
other. Considering all the difficulties by which this
subject was encumbered, and the state of the public
mind with respect to it, he thought the present
proposition was mo:e likely than any other which could
be submitted to the House, to abate, and finally put an
end to angry feelings. The Member for Suffolk (Sir
T. Gooch), professed his admiration of the law as it
stood in 1815. For himseP, lie must say, that he de-
precated nothing more than the constant fluctuations of
price, which were mainly attributable to that state of
the law, and which continued during 12 years. He sup-
ported it, it was true, but he now freely confessed that
he was in error. He should be ready to prove at any
future period that the law of which the Honourable
Member for Suffolk professed so much admiration,
had occasioned a gteat -destruction of agricultural
capital, and produced lower prices than could have
arisen under any other system. Ile therefore differed
in opinion upon this point with the Honourable hlem-
ber tier Suffolk, who lie trusted would be consoled for
the overthrow of the system he so much admired, when
found it had done nothing but injury. The mode of
taking the averages proposed in the present measure was
the same as had been hitherto acted upon. The Mem-
ber for Suffolk told tirem, that when the average price
was 52, he himself received 60, for his corn in the
London market. This at least was a proof that the
averages did not work unfavourably for the c on of
Suffolk, and he was glad it worked so favouraEly for
his Hon. Friend.

Colonel SIBTHORP, in explanation, said, the great
consumption of oats.last year was occasioned by the
dearnesi of bay.

Sir T. LE THBRIDGE explained. The last lot of
corn whic!) was taken out of bond on the 15th Novem-
ber, amounted to 8,700 quarters, which paid a duty of
21. Os. Bd. a quarter. The coin taken out last Septem-
ber pal.' a duty of 11. 4s. Bd. the quarter.
Mr. FIIROVSON txplained.

Mr. 13A1tING thought it would be unnecessary that
the Committee should give the Resoluti .ns more con
sideration than was in their power by merely hearing
them read from the Chair, before it could come to any
determinatrop. The Resolutions had certainly been in.
troduced with great candour, and he would own that
he had apprehended somethng much worse. He was
afraid they were' io have the continuance of a system
%strict) was not worth a straw as a protection to agri-
culture, and which would certainly at one time or other
produce a famine in the country. When they looked
at the increasing population of the country, could
any mar, of common sense, or common honesty. or
common feeling, object to have a depot of corn
in the country, to preserve such a population from
the danger of famine? With three years of good
harvests we wet e still importing corn. The vast mass 01
our people were employed at wages by which they
could scarcely live; and they were employed by masters
Mho could scarcely make a living profit of their CA pitrl.
If this was the case when corn was at 52r. what was the
danger if corn. rose to 675. or 70.,.? what was to become
of the agriculturist if the manufacturers were unable
to purchase their earn? Tory were now as low as
they could with safety he brought; and if further de-
pressed mast return on the cou,ory as paupers. Bid as
the ohi law was, he was doubtful w Nether the present
would be an improvement. With the prohibitory law
on the Statute B ok, the Mini,ter of the dry was very
properly afraid to trust to the law, and every year ob•
tained an Act fur importation, which did much more
injury to the agricultural interes than a regular im-
portation. Still he was confident that Ministers could
not have obtained better terms for the country than was
contained in the present resolutions; and his doubt was
whether it would not be better to live under the arbi.
trary state of the law which was dependant on the dis-
cretion of Ministers. He would say, that wheat passing
60s. with such a high duty as that imposed by the reso•
tions was too dangerous to venture on. If wire a was
to pass 60.. he thought Government would be obliged
to interfere to admit importation.
Mr. Secretary PEEL expressed his surprise at what
had just fallen from the Honourable Member who last
addressed the House—that the old system was better
than that now proposed. He had thought that of all
men in the House tire Honourable Member was most
strongly impressed with the conviction that some fixed
system of duties would be preferable to that which had
hitherto existed, which was so lax. For his own part,
ho confessed that, for the settlement of the relations
between landlord, and tenant, and the arrangement of
the trade in corn, he thought Government was
called upon to adopt some fixed system. lie con-
curred in thinking that nothing could be more in.
secure than a system which was at one time infringed
by Parliament, and at another by Government ; and
therefore he was surprised, alter what the Honourable
Member had stated last year, that he should not see
the advantage of the proposed system of duties beyond
those of the law as it already existed. He admitted
that there were extreme opinions on both sides on this
subject, but he did not vote for the present measure as
giving way to the prejudice on either side, but because
he considered it an equitable adjustment between interests
which were essentially the same, but which had been
for a time eonsidered diffeteat, and because he thought

:his would do much to reconcile both panics. When
they eonbideted the duty ptoposed when the average

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price wa5.,60.. they should not leave out rif their con-
sideration what had been done by another Branch of the
Legislature, where the tame duty was proposed till the
average pike rose to 665. lie did not approve of
that alteration, nor did he mention it as a set-off to
the scale now proposed, but merely to show what dii.
ferent opinions were entertained on this subject. How-
ever,it should be recollected that the Lords fixed at
665. that scale of duty which the Commons had pro-
posed for the average of 60,. and he owned, that if the
Government of that day could have believed that the
Bill so amended would be acceptable to that House,
they would have consented to the alteration, with the
view to the settlement of the question. His Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Huskisson), and his other Right Hon.
Friends at that time in the Government, would, he be-
lieved, have related their opinion, and consented to the
amendment on that ground. He mentioned this to
to show, that there was no inconsistency in any Mem-
ber now accepting with gratitude the measure before
the House, as it would have the effect of settling
the question at last. He therefore supported this,
not merely because it tended to reconcile parties,
but because it was reasonable in itself. Li the end
of the last Session a Bill was passed to admit into
the market some c ern then in bond, but was it
with the same advantage as the present measure
would ensure ? It was found that for several weeks
large quantities were imported et different rates of duty. .
Now, one great advantage of the proposed measure
would bet that the importation being gradual, would
prevent those sudden gluts which arose from importa-
tions under the old system. By the Act of last Session
corn was not to be admitted after May, but in the un-
certainty of the state of the harvest, the admission was
irregular. But let the House see what was done under
that Act. When the price was 60s. and the duty 24:.
in the week ending 13Eli July, 13.000 quarters were
introduced into the market. In the neat week the
price was 6h. and the duty 225. Bd. 47,000 quar-
ters came in. In the week ending Jaly 27, 50,000
quarters were brought in at the same duty. In the hol-
lowing week 36,000 quarters at the s +me duty. In the
succeeding week 26,000. In the week following 178,000
quarters were brought in at the same duty of ;:2s. bd.
In the next week 82,000, at a duty of 245. in the
week after 3,700, and the next week 32,625 quarter-,
at the same duty. Nrw these quantities were intro-
duced and influenced by the uncertainty of th- 1a..,
and the irregular mode of its operation ; and this he
thought was conclu-ive against such limitations as
existed under that system. lie fully concurred with
the Honourable Member as to the great importance
of the agricultural classes ; and he thought that
nothing should be done which would have the effect
of lowering that highly-respectable class in the social
or political scale; but there was nothing in the
measure before the House which could have that effect.
He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman as to the pro
gressive increase of our population, and that we mist
depend to a certain extent on foreign importation lot
part of our supply of corn; but it did not follow, that
if we imported more than before, our agriculture
should be 'consideteJ as declining. Importation
might still.go-on, and agriculture continue to flourish.
If the farmer raised less corn, it might be found that
he made more by the produce of his dairy, and got
a better price for his milk and cheese. It he found
that land was thrown out of the cultivation of
corn in the neighbourhood of London and Man-
chester, he might also ascertain that larger quantitie
of it were devoted to pasture, and that the farmer
made an equal profit in that way. But when it was
admitted that this counts y did n a produce corn enough
for its consumption, let the House look to another
country, whose interests %vete so intimately bound up
with our own, and whose capability of production was
all wed on all bands; and let it be recollected that in
proportion as we encouraged foreign importation,
we should do that which would be an injury to Ire-
land. He did not say that we 'should abstain from all
importation of foreign corn for the sake of Ireland,
but.still we should not lorget w hat was due to that
country, and that in proportion as we crested a market
for her corn, we enabled her to purchae our manufac-
tures. He would not occupy the attention of the liou-e
longer on this subject, but he could not sit down with-
out congratulating it oo the temperate t'.ne of the
discussion, and the total ab-tnce et all patty feelings.
He would follow that excel'ent example, for he should
be ashamed of him-elf it lie said a word which could
give rise to the introduction of any topic of that kiiid on
.his subject. He would make one remark on what had
fallen from the lion. B ironet opposite. The Hon.
Baronet had said, that in a week in Novemb-r, 7,886
quarters of wheat had Leen imported when the duty
WAS at 21. Os. Bd. This be considered must be a mistake,
and if lie looked at the head o' the r. turn in which the
introduction of that quantity WAS mentioned, he would
find that it was a t eturn of he duty, not only on wheat, but
on other corn, and also on meal and flour. He admitted
that parties whose corn was in bond would rather sell it at
any profit than let it be spoiled, hut they could not aff rd
to let it out at that ditty. In conclusion, he would repeat,
that he voted for the proposed measure, not merely to
give way to the prejudice of two patties, but because he
considered it an equitable adjustment, in which the in.
terests of both were equally -attended to, and because it
would prevent those fluctuations unavoidable under the
old system. He knew it would not have the effect of
keeping the rice below 60s. for that depended on a
variety of causes over which no human foresight could
have any contrriul, but, under all the circumstances,
he thought it the measure which would go nearest to
reconciling all parties.

Mr. BARING explained.
Mr. HUME could not give a silent vote, because lie
considered the Resolutions were framed with the inten-
tion of favouring the aristocracy at t• e expense of the
population. He deprecated the idea of legislating to
avoid differing with the other House. In legislating,
the House ought to look to principle, and follow the
practice adopted in other articles of manufacture, either
by imposing a fixed duty, or an ad valorem duty, and
not render the great mass of the population dependent
upon the higher orders Too much had been done
for the agricultural interest, and he knew nc.t what
right they had to demand a high rate of duty. It
WAS the duty of Ministers to look to the interest of
the two great bodies of the State, viz. the commercial as
well as the agricultural. But the fact was, that the
Cabinet were taking the part of the latter in preference
to the former ; and
,was it possible that, under such
circumstances, the country could remain quiet ? He
did not see any reason ss hy the consumer was to be im-
poverished. It was with the view of trying the prin-
ciple, of which he had given notice, that he should,
after the holidays, propose a permanent rate of duty—
that is, when corn was imported and bonded, it should
not be taken at a higher rate of duty than fifteen shil•
lings, which was more than they had a right to demand.
Mr. flume took occasion to observe, with reference to
this display, that if the Honourable Members who were
so eloquent—(A laugh)—would prove that he was
wrong, he would with pleasure double the amount of