Star.
London, England, 1816-02-24 00:00:00

SIR THOU Al PICTON.

Mr. JONES observed, that as he saw a Right
Honourable Gentleman in his place, who n is Cnair.
man of the Committee for superintending the erec•
lion of National Monuments, he wished to know
whether only 3,000 guineas were to be the sum al.
lotted to the erection of a monument to the memory
of Sir Thomas Picton I He certainly thought that
sum too small, and the more so, as he had been in
St. Paul's that day, and observed several Monuments
erected to the memory of Post Captains in the Navy,'
some of which had cost four, and even £6,000. ,
Mr. LONG replied, that no person could be more
sensible of the eminent services of Sir Thomas Pic-
ton than be was; but as to the sum allotted for his
Monument, that did not fall within his department,
it being altogether at the discretion of the Lords of
the lreasury. He could state, however, that the
sum certainly was to be 3,000 guineas. 1-1 e was not
aware that any of the Monuments in St. Paul's,
erected to the memory of Post Captains in the Navy,
had cost a larger sum, though it might possibly be
the fact. But it should be remembered, that during
the war, the difficulty of procuring the marble
usually employed for Monuments was so great, and
the expense so much larger, that what then cost as
much as six guineas per foot, was now reduced to
I somewhat about two.guineas. A less sum, therefore,
would be necessary for a Monument of equal mag-
nitude.
Mr. JONES said. that ithe answer of the Right
Honourable Gentleman was not satisfactory to him;
and be was proceeding to make some further re-
marks when
The SPEAKER reminded him, that as be had
not announced his intention of concluding with a
Motion, there was then no question before the House.
Mr. JONES apologised for the irregularity, of
which be was not aware, being only a young Mem'
her of that House, and stated that he should feel it
his duty, on some future occasion, to bring forward
a motion upft the subject, unless he was anticipated
by the Right Honourable Gentleman, or some other
Member.
Sir T. ACKLAND presented a Petition from
certain Gentlemen, proprietors and cultivators of
land, residing in the vicinity of Exeter, complaining
of the distress which they felt. He stated that there
was one circumstance connected with the Petition,
which was peculiarly worthy of the attention of the
House. it was signed by about 500 of the princi-
pal yeomanry of the county, that highly respectable '
and most important class of the Community. Though
they were not numerous, therefore, they might fairly
be considered as speaking the sense of that part of
the country. The Honourable 'Baronet stated the
substance of the Petititin, which referred to the ex-
MOM distress felt by the agricultural interest, which
was so great indeed, that they were compelled to
draw upon. their capitals in order to support Them-
hear)—and that, they would resort to

• •
other means fir that support, if there were-any pro-
fiL4ble mode of employing-their money: •They.con:
'eluded their Petition, not by calling fur• any specific
relief, but by thin in. themselves on the• feelings and
sympathy of the Reese, and relying upon their judg-
ment for the best means of affording it. Upon the
Petition being re id by the Clerk.
Mr. BROUGHAM expressed his surprise that
the Honourable 8 ironet, in stating the substance of
the Petition, had omitted to mention the Property
Tax, as one of the principal causes of the distress
complained of. He was led to conclude that the
Petition was merely a general and vague application
to the Legislature for relief, without pointing out any
mean* by which the relief could be obtained. It
appeared, however, from the reading of the Peth
that the omission was in the Honourable Baronet
himself, and not in the Petition. The Petitioners
themselves were aware of the source of their suffer-
ings, though the Honourable Baronet did not think
fit to touch upon it. In poiat of fact, therefore, the
Petition was as much a Petition against the Property
Tax, .as it was for relief generally.
Sir I'. ACKLAND said, he wondered the Ho-
nourable. and Learned Gentleman did not express
Another part 6f his surprise, that any one could be
so devoid of common sense as to come down to that
House with a Petition, of which he wished a part to
be concealed, and yet desire it to be read at length
by the, Clerk, in order to expose his own inadequacy
—(Hearasear).—lf the Honourable Gentleman had
only dune blip the honour to attend to the general,
way in which he opened the matter of the Petition,
he would how had no occasion to make the remarks
which he had so precipitately offered to' the House
—(Hear, hear, hear)—aad if he would only allow
him to go through the other Petition which he held
in his hand, he would see from his conduct, whether
he had any design to suppress or omit any thing ma-
terially connected with their object.,-(Hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM disclaimed any idea of iris-
pitting to the Honourable Baronet the motives which
he seemed to imagine was his intention. He only
meant to express his surprise at finding the contents
of the Petiticn differ so materially in a substantive
part of it, from what might have been expected from
tae manner in which it had been opened by the Ha
nourable Baronet.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
denied that the Petition could be considered as a Pe-
tion against the Property Tax.
After k few observations from Lord BINNING, Mr.
W. Sacred, and Mr. PRIGTON, the Petition was or.
&red to lie on the Table.

Sir T. ACKLAND presented a simitir Petition
from Honiton, which was'ordered th lie nn the tible.
Sir T. ACKLAND presented several other Petitions from
different parts of Devongaire, which, after a repetition from Mr.
Pa as•roN of ',is former statemen:s, respecting die distressed state
of the Lamleed ili•erest, were ordered to lie on the table.

The Batik Luan Eta went through a Committee, the Report
of which was ordered to be received on 2vl.,tiday.
• Mr. BROCDEN brought up the Report of the Clergy Re-
sidence The Amendments were agreed to, and the• Bill was
or4ere.l to be r.:41 a third time on Monday.
The second readins of the Crown Lands Bill was postponed
to Monday.
On the Motion of Mr. WISTIIN, an account was ordered to
he laid before the Hoes* Grail Executions issued by the Sheriffs
of Eugland against Bodies and Good. &ninths years ISIS, 1514,
mad id IL, and from January last. '
TUB 11.01/11
_ CI A_NI

QUER

hit notice, rose to move ••
J'iAio's--Petition be referred to a Cunsinittee. It
well known tu.the House, that during Lewd Elgin's
mission to Constantinople, he procured, at great
trouble, and At a great expense, the collection of an-
cient sculpture which had since been transpntted to
this country. AU who knew that*Noble Lord were
also aware that it was his intention to undertake this
task gratuitously towards this county, had .not cir-
cumstances which it was unnecessary to mention,
prevented him. The collection was too well known
to most of the Honourable Members who heard him,
to make it necessary for him to enter into any de-
scription of its merits. It would be sufficient for
him to say, that the most distinguished judges of the
works of ancient art spoke of it as in many respects
distinguished from any other in Europe; and that it
contained a mass of information, character, and prin-
ciple, calculated for the improvement of modern art,
which perhaps the united collections of Europe could
hardly furnish. The Committee would have the
power of calling on every one competent to estimate
the value of this collection, for his opinion. He
readily admitted, that, under the circumstances of the
times, it was desirable to avoid any great public ex-
pense ; nevertheless, it should be considered that if
the present opportunity were missed it could scarcely
from its nature be recovered. if the British Parlia-
ment refused to purchase this collection, it would, in
all probability, be dispersed, or be disposed of. to
some potentate abroad. Either part of the alterna-
tive would be to be regretted ; and particularly the
former, which would be a great public misfortupe.
The House had formerly the means of putting the
tnuntry in possession of a fine collection of a similar
nature (the TOwnleian Maehksp he trusted they
weal add to •it that now Ware& .In. considering
the vicissitudes of human affairs, it certainly did 'up-111
pear extraordinary that the works of Phidias should'
become the propecty of a native of Caledonia. To',
the artists of this country, access iii them as the means
of study would he inealuablei: for it was notorious,
that of all the fine arts, Sculpture was that in which
.we had made the least progress. On these. pounds,
he should move to refer Lord glows Petition to the
consideration of a select Committee, which Commit-
tee should hive power to adjourn from place tO
place, for the purpose of inspection, and should be
instructed tq report whether, in their opinions his
Lordship's collection ought to be plumbs:bed for the
public; and if so, what price it would be reasonable
for Parliament to allow.

Lord OSSULSTONE observed, it was a question
of importance for the House to consider, 'hillier an
Ambassador resident in a foreign country should,.nse
the influence which his situation' gave him. to pro,
cure the property of that country. and then convert it,
to his own advantage ? The Nobte Lord obtained
these Marbles, not from any personal respect towards
himself, but because be represented a great and
powerful country. • He hoped that the House would
go no farther than to reimburse the Noble Lord for
the expense, to which he had beeeput..
Mr. BANKES pig!, that the Committee would.
hive to ascertain the mode in which the Noble Lord
obtained these Marbles, the expense to which he had

'liven put with AOKI to them, and what degree of
vested rightLtterapublic already possessed in them.
'The Noble could certainly not be cionsidel..f as
an independent traveller, who had a right to dispeau
of, at any price that he could obtain' whatever he
might have collected in the course of his researchel. •
He had availed himself of his character as an Eng-
lish Ambassador to facilitate the acquisition. He
confessed, that, instead of leaving the question alto-
gether to Parliament. he should have thought it bet-
ter had the Noble Lord fired the rice be required.
Under all the circumstances, however, although he
was persuaded that the Committee would have as
inconvenient and a laborious ink. and although he
felt very sensibly the difficulty of the times, yet the
collection was one of such acknowledged value, one
so unrivalled in its nature, and which it was so much

to be desired that the puillie should possess, chic he
could not hesitate to entertain the proposition made
by his Right Hon Friend.
Mr. A I3ERCROMBIE considered the difficulties

which would attend the Cninrateemere not so great
as the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) had re.
presented. With respect to the utmost ♦alue of these
articles, that war not the principle upon which the.
Committee would lfave to proceed. One part of Ibex
ingisity would certainly include the actual expeu.!‘e
incurred ip procuring these Marbles and brialgitt
them to this country. Generally, he believed there
could be but one opinion upon this subject, and that
there would be no opposition to the appointment of
a Committee. .

Mr. GORDON thought it his duty, its answer to
the remark just made, that there cou'd be but n.!
opinion on the subject, to say, that, in his judgment,
the present distress )1 the counccy did not call ioen
Parliament to make a purchase of a set of Itlni,leg.
He submitted it to the consideration of ele CI •ticel.
for of the Exchequer, whether it would not, und,r
the present circumstances of the country, be advibable
to postpone this question until the country had time
to recover from its difficulties

Mr. TIERNEY agreed with other Gentlemen,
that it was desirable these works should not be scat•
tesed over the face of the country. and much more
that they should not leave it. If, however, they were
to be considered the property of Lord Elgin, as a pri-
vate individual, this was not the time for Parliament
making the purchase. But if they were procured
by him in the capacity of Ambass %dor, an. the
Committee appointed were to inquire the expenses
incurred by him in procuring this collection, to that
extent he ( Mr. Tierney) was ready to go. Though
Lord Elgin might have gone to Mr. Perceval upon
this subject, and Mr. Perceval had offered him a sum
of money. which the former refused, still he did t
think this the juncture when that offer should be re-
pelted. He did not perceive what were the lune-,
tions which the Committee would have to discharge..
Whatever should be done lie could not approve of
encouragement to Ambassadors in laying out sue
money of the country in making collections of this
description. It was not, :however, the moment for
purchasing collections at the_ expense of the country,
however desirable, for there were many things which
he (Mr. Tierney) woild like to have, but he was
sorry that 1* had not the means of procuring them.
Mr. C. LONG spoke in favour of the appoint-
mert of the Committee, as he was sure there was not
a collection in the country so well adapted fur the en-
.

%a:Assess guy is V 1 asset sue •is
Mr. PRES'T'ON Contended this application came
to Parliament at a most ungracious time, when the
country was involved in unexampled distress. Lord
Elgin ought to have come boldly forward and have
made them a present ton the country.
Mr. BROUGHAM was sorry that in the dis-
charge of.his duty he must object to the appointment
of a Committee. He participated, at the same time,
in feeling with other Honourable Members it was
extremely desirable that such a collection should be
in the possession of this country. It was very ratio•
nal that we should wish to indulge ourselves in this
sort of gratification, but he was under the necessity
of looking to the other side of the question. This
country had not the money to spend. As a nation
we found ourselves precisely in the situation of an
individual who might see many things he would like
to purchase, and which he might purchase too at
a cheap price, but he cannot indulge himself with
the article, fot upon asking himself the question he
finds that he has no money in his pocket Perhaps this
collection might cost about forty or fifty thousand
pounds, but even if it would cost only ten or twelve
thousand pounds, this was 'not the time to press ex-
penses upon the public. This was a time when we
were called upon to cut down expenses of every de-
scription. If it could be afforded consideration was
due to the present state of Midshipmen, and also of
half-pay Officers, retiring upon what was not equal
to their support, but he believed the only answer
which could be returned was, that in the present
state of the country we were not able to afford them
any further assistance, still if we could not give them
Ito bread," we ought not to indulge_ ourselves in the
I purchase of go stones." On these gonads he felt it
ha duty to object to the present motion, and there-
fore he should conclude by moving the previous
question;
Sir J. NEWPORT objected to the appointment of
a Committee.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
did nut see clearly the ground of objection, or how
this question could have been taken up more properly
at another time.
Mr. BABINGTON said this collectiOn had been
procured by a spoliation which .oug!ir. not to list ve
taken place. The House would recollect that 'there
, ,
I*as a jealous eye looking upon us, and a nelgll DOOT.•
ing nation would be very glad if they found t.s flip-
ping. In his opinion, it'ought to be a special chat
to the Committee to take Cafe of out narionalhun, us.
After a—few words (ran. Mr. Croier and Mr.
Preston, the motion for the previous question WAS
put and .negatived without a division, and the ori-
ginal mottocloe the. appoiotment of a Cyr:mime
was agreed.lo4ar.si• Mr. Banks, Sir George eier
Mn;• Homer,: Ctoket, T. Ackland, &c.
Were 'appointestMernbers of the. same.
Lord PALMERSTON presented certain Returns
of Men horse: itnA., mustered in Garribons abroad,
which ,werq ordered to lie c,ri the table.
u Pore in Packers 13:U Was read a first time,
'and =Acted to be read a Second time on Nlonday.
The (*hal Orders of the DAy were Olen dibikhr,cd
Of/ and the house adjourned to Monday:
•