Star.
London, England, 1827-02-20 00:00:00

qtr

home tetWuseless; they joined the depot __
merit, and 'thus they were enabled to recover
health without going upon ha'f-pay, and after".
rejnin their reginitats abroad. He could '
Hon. Gentleman that the general efficiency
had hen greatly advanced by this systtm.
Col. DAVIES thought battalions of 600 mks too .
pealed to the Military men la the House.
Lord PA L NIERS FON assured the, Hon. Member 1
Maury authorities approved of the piviiit iridium.
net. HUME perfectly recollected the Noble
a former occasion strongly contendiutchat &
much better nurnber than 'Mao compcot • battalion.
It was tins that arguments were idapted to the mat-
.inn. Was it reasonable, he would ask, that 61 !Field
Officers, 210 Captains, find subalterns in proportion.
should now be employed in the Recruiting Service ?
(The Hon. Member here requested that the moticip,
should be read.)—Thi Noble Lord's observation, he
continued, applied rather to subsequent votes than to
that immediately before the House. He objected to the
magnitude of our Military Establishments altogether ;
btit, its the House had pledged itself to support the
Crown in its interference in the affairs of Portugal, and
we had thus undertaken ,to put everything to rights
there, -he hesitated as, to, resisting the motion. Amidst
continual preinises;;Soectittomy,the Army had gradually
increased from 60 6110,090 men. The Estimates
were of no more value than so roach waste paper. Last
year the estimates were 6,661,0001. and the actual ex-
Paditore 8.400,0001. The Hon. Member bete entered
into 'a detailed comparison Of the national expenses of
Anievica with those _of Great Britain—the result of
whit be stated to Iss„ that they were husbanding their
resources whilst we Were wasting ours. When they
talked gisf honour and.glpry, he begged to remind them
of Whit fell from the floe. Member for Callington,
whom he regretted not to see in-his place. That Hon.
MeMber told theis,aed told %tin trOli, that if they
once sacred their iationters t Olio it:iliac:tad, and de.
prlved themselves of the conffderlafeha world, :hate
salsa an end of their character luta Inky. The recces-
s}sidektio of the Finance Committee ol' I'Bl6hat(laims
r47oleotegardad, and after twelve yeats of peace
. lirigeaisitually in mere difficulty than at 'the close
WIT a Übe thought the Wou:Se .-erOutd got •liiill
kitO; e Would attire to reduce *this. vote 14 at least
90:X, that, and for asia eeisoct, thiii the/ ',Muhl thesc
be lb:posed-to meddle with
,ogiaer pitople's.4l;nt
and intend better to their owe. Ttat Hon.-Gentlest:4n
concluded by moving as an amenilinigit,.thatthaioothea;
should be reduced to fistrail thoitiatiti like#•
DAVIES begged to &atria a -mss
tilleik Mt
litriireliwai(Mr. Hveityholiallile. The diledshoth esinsistbr
bissoad sat &mown m,seesteess bee sat im alum • k •
sir*kslMCrigThitipti.p 4,14 004 arodiseApt the Ea.
to vire right. e dillertiees le Test ems* efts esilliektht
..&tn teas Wag Wtilidloll.l2lllll MIS, 1 **~ol. 'I A ike
ilea.' allltiriNi seek the eagle essiatiair lit . bail. Wavp..ol‘
awe. aye lillmapissesit. be mosid • IPA . 4,4 :10111 Nrelll
:Wl' gar 1691. an 4 fc. 14rf. tt• sheet
,is plate et betweire Our rei eve'
itac:
tf Mt raki, that ef sigiiiiss is d Pipers
dreg
,the Hoe. Heenan* eppesha(Mr. Henise), he wail
lade thstia. total eapeediusei Pees. doe APb et Jonas! MCI*
the Ws et Jastearg.l 11S;AitritIseet he:U*o Ave.
irsang CM Ow debis
wok tb.164,1171. He did set knew-beet what • • ibid.
Gardwian (Mr. Pltsger.ald) OK bit liarendigh 'Os 10.41 the
Charamins aatkaleitr-Getet)treidit teed Mae the Ibleelkst
the ; _

-119relffERRIE8 wilt hie papaya's perfectly merect,
mid the Hoe. Gentleman (Hr. Home) was perfectly
wrong. He thought his Right Hoo.-Frieed (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) had given each an explanation
upon-this point, as would•have rendered it unnecessary
to•go into tt again. At the close of 1895 there was, as
the Committee knew, a great press epos the coned/..-
there was thee a great deamod for 'mosey :to .pay
Exchequer Bilk. It win chiselers Judged minimal't
to avoid making issues from the Treasney to the
Army or Navy until the rectifier circumstances of
the time had passed away. The consequence was,
that the current payments of the year were postponed,
and the Exchequer kept as full as possible. The issue,
therefore, which should have taken place in Decembee
1825,fe11 nponlB96,and was eonsequatly carried to the
*opulent payments of the latter year. 'At the close of
1.99. however, another event pt °dead quite a contrary
effect. It became necessary to send oat an army to
Poriogal,and to pay that arary-in advance, as was al-
wait the case with respect to troops going on a foreign
eepedidon. From these circumstances mins cleft that,
withoot any real increase of expenditure, the 'illations
made from January 1896 to Jemmy KM meat
have appeared larger than in the cotvapoadieg period
fain 1826 to 1827. It was not possible that greater
et etinetecould be preserved freer year io pear. A shah
amount; such as that referred to by the Hen. Gentleman
(NirAttime) might be good for a period of yeass;:bist
niefbrinstituting a comparison beanies the expendi•
tutWel any two years. He was rather surprised to
butt' the Hon. Gentleman say the expenditure was
eager than the estimate. That could sot 'be so, be.
catesathere war no power of expending more than bad
beeirtoted. He was surprised low this matter. abet
hating been so clearly explained by his Right Hon.
Ftk.nd (the Chancellor of'the Escheqeer. arm a for.
met' eight)'coold remain a matte of doubt or difficulty.
'Colonel DAVfES said, that unless theaceounts welt
isttbded for the purpose of deception, he saw' no res.
sot, :why they shoold.net bare an exellanatory approdit,
for the purpose of making these matters clear. The
caslreetount in Nis hand professed tit lie ars account cif
tier tat il -receipts and expenditure, and be naturally
concluded that • the sum stated was the total expendi.
tee of 1826.
41r., fd ARBELY said, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
liefriet}knew that the Committee of 1816 were anxious
to hate the accounts clearly brought before the House.
in a balroce sheet. The Hon. Gentleman said, that in
one year a larger sum might be expended than in the
pteeeding. ft a • when this was the case, one would
'oppose that the expenditure in the succeeding year
should be less. The Chancellor of the'Etchequer dealt
with the accounts in a similar way last year. The
House should take no other account but that before
them, the cash account. Even now, however, it was
not correct; for a great portion of it had reference to
the Funded and Unfunded Debt, with which properly
jihad nothing to do. He would shew the House how
little Estimates were to be depended on. Last year the
Chancellor of the Exchequercalculated on a surplus of
7140001. and iccurdinglylook off taxes to that amount,
and nnw when they tame to their cash account, in-
stead of a surplus, they found.a deficiency of4,500;0001a
This was not occasional by a deficiency of Revenue;
foe' the deficiency of revenue was only 11,00,0004 It
yea by the balance sheet before them. they must try
the situation of the country. He was avow', as well
at the Hou..Ger.:leasatr(Mr. 'ferries); that by the .Ap,
preiterfatton Act, the cash .account esabld not, shwe *
logerstim than had been actually appropriated .ant

_ .
...g upon an average for each year 18,232,0001:
nix average was above the expenditure of the yen
11116. He still contended that,the. expenditure ONO
jilt -exceeded the estimate.
She Roselaks was then agreed to.
Thu sac Residuum wt. tor itotraytee tba, Oar's se Auk
Conte& and Agony, for Dis Mates Land Poets in the-UnW
ifigagdent . 65,155011
`Mr. HUME objected to the Votes, the number
Win for Ireland was twenty-two thousand :ix holii
lined' whereas before 1792, seven or eight thou •
',as found sufficient. Fourteen thousand more veil
oow found necessary to keep down that country, sal
this in consequence of the manner in which it had
Keen governed. • s
The itenardon Was agreed to. • -
Pot the Googol and Staff oMcers, ate. • .flall•Sft "11
Colonel D4VIES objected to the vote. There was
an increase in this item of 24,0001. as compared with
1822. He would adroit that of this expenditure 11,9001.
was attributable to the expedition to Portugal; but still'
there was in increase of 12,0001.
Mr. HUMS gala *into* [mew, as compared to 17ft, was not
lies this 1•3•0001.
The ti osolation was agreed to.
That a sum toot exceeding 111.6551. 71. Id. be greeted IfeeMlotto
sates to the ?dottrel Oaken of Public Departments. .
Mr, HUME objected to the vote. • He had some rea-
son to believe that things did not go on properly with
respect to superannuation. On the Superannuation List
be found a charge of not less than 20,0001. for per
superannuated flues the Noble Lord's (Palmerston's)
!Office. A Committee should be appointed to inquire
into the manner in which superanouations took place.
He begged to know from the Noble Lord, why the De-
puty Secretary et War retired last year ? Was he iota!
pable of doing his duty?
• Lord PALMERSTON said, he had JO often, from
year coyote, gwee into the subject of this Estimate, that
the Committee would, be trusted. excuse him if be
stained front troubling them at any length. Manik.
efficiency of this breach of the swim now, asses&
pared with former times, was considered, the
ciadd not appear excessive. 'Fite public wows owviiilile
gsally and ably.served than at any former
` b. additional expense bad not been 'incurred withent
the approbation of Parliament, end it would ham been
impossible without it to furnish such ampieend various
k•
information as was Notated by the Hoenig ewer ale.
purtment. The sum he would admit yawls:A but,
ps *empanel with 1814.. a -great redaction had taken
place. 161914 the amount mewl foe the same breach
of service was 1193,0001.40 that it had been seduced by
arose Mae half. This proved theamtiodyelGoverumeat
to make every 'eduction consistent with the wanted
"jai* service. He would now come to the subject
'enrolled so by the How Gest. (Mr. Hume). When we
large an establishment as bad • been kept up antis'
tint war became unnecessary, provisilio wag to be made
for those who bad served the public fee many years.
'The amount and scale of rismuneiation had been fixed
by Act of Parliament. It Meet tiered upesche head
'Of the department to great this reermaden. To him
was left merely the power of se=l the pasoos who
'coald be best spat ed. He re the gams to
Treasury, Needier with the pesiodef service, nod do
anoint el as ary. Upon ibis rep resetatiostbotiten.
stay apportions the amount of Sopetwasnation. do
course of last year he made a seduction in his -Office of
twenty-two appointments. This must necessarily in-
crease the retired allowances. With respect to the
'Deputy Secretary,stian whom a more assiduous, a more
valuable or meritorious Officer never discharged -any
public duty, be, by the provisions of an Act Famed two
years ago, would have been entitled about this aims
'twelve asoachs to a retiring albseteneemaal M his fall
itataty. Hotbox 'mad for nearly halts century, be
was desirous to' have his claims submitted to the Tree.
sery ; and as by the provisions of the Aar the Traawip
Wm empowered to.eoable ,him to anise below the full
period, of fifty years had expired, be. tLordPs) thought
the ease eat one for considevation. .Nis salety,Jsedbe
ritualised 'in offset, would be 11,6001. a. year. inell
Mt successor was only 2.0004 that fee the iiamllm
Might have held his situation Mete Nosily the,d
a saving of. fsOW. a year. He was enabled tied
other *transomed: tor the .good of the envies On
the winding up of the atamots, the office: of Principal
perk, art a
They
of 1',2C01. Aear waild line' been
abolished. The retiresnest of She 191gow l ail.
enabled.hint to retain the principal Molt in -1111011011
situation, in which his experience and melees Would be
of great importance. Sy thil :nuns the whole of the
Principal Clerk's retiring allowance was saved, which
could not be less than 1';0001. a year. The expense tol
the public, therefore, was not so great as might at ins
appear, .51;01. having been shred to the pubtsc 'in OM
case, and 1;0001. in ancither. Had the 'Principal Clerk
retired, and the'Diputy 'Secretary served out' his full
time, the public would have to bear the retired' charge
of both. In the course of ten years a great clearing
would be effected by the operation, and enable Wes to'
make ot'.er changes, the effect of which behopedirdeli
be to render the office more efficient.
Colonel DAVIES said that, taking the pubic agronomists tow
gather, the amount of superannuation was greater this year by
1,3401. than in 11122.
Lord PA LMERSTON said, the altesetleta is the amount could
not he very sendble in one or two years • but let the Hon. Gent.
look to the amount to 1014, and be world see that a great 'siva
don tad taken piste.
Mr. HUME said there were two individuals on the
retired list; one having. besides his superannuation al-
lowance, a pension of 5001. and another of 8004 There
was no less a cum than +.3001. for the retired allowance
to. Deputy Secretaries at War ; this, added to the salary
of the present Secretary, made the whole charge to the
public fot Deputy Secretaries alone 6,3001. It is net
age, but incapacity,,that should form a ground for re-,,
turn. He understood that, Mr. Merry, the late. Deputy
Secretary, had no wish. to retire. If such were. really
the case, it was. pretty clear that the interests of the
public were net attended to. He wished to, know from
the Noble. Lord whether Mr. Merry was fit for business
siben he retired?
Lord PALM ERSTQN said he.bad before dkniractly
stated that Mr. Merry retired at his own, tarpon. It
was his own wish who're the case represented to Abe
:Nam,. Me bad Iseesatputy Secretary since 1809,.
his pmdecesser 'Wined. • !would sot pee..

had only 1,0001. a year.
.Mr. HUME said the dead weightisnpt on increasing ,
and had done so ewer since the yesiait2; in that year
its amount was 329,0001. whereas in this year it tras
05,0001. IC wrrestremely improper that an indi,idatl
who was capable bf discharging his duty shotald'hi

superannuated.
Mr. HERRIES said, the Treasury did look into this
branch of divetpenditure with the greatest possible
*dance, and took every precaution that none but proper,:
Objecu should be allowed to participate in it.
Mr. HUME said. it had been stated by the Noble Lord
opposite, that 22 clerks had been reduced in this depart-
ment : he should wish to know how many new ones had
been admitted into their places?
Lord PALIWIERSTON replied, none.

.The reseleties was this agreed t.e.
Theses weeletbs, Wet the sum of €17,777 1.40 Id. be greased
for delowing the impasses of maned and wooziest mete:lab fee the
gear Illthorsetheswed end aveedass.
The seat reeilsduad that the woe of it. 13,148 as. be steeled
kr defrayiez thoolimges of volunteer corps le Great Deitch end
Ireland,ifee &avow VIOL htwisli bus road.
Mr. MUM mid. he shook! wish to Mew hew way of these
es mseinsuil fades the tut year.
coerce
said, he believed he might vesture its
say *Wei Its carps lied been impeded berfarg the bet yomr.—The
weeklies Wee thee weed te.
The remind= eke the suss of Major es. N. should he =
be dere*" lb estimise of the toensiting smoke he Greet
Nod Ireland Orstmott reed sod spud es.
The rentleties list the sum of 5t19,520 Se. 7d. be greeted ter
tike Ms
fbe egoist's ' Royal Military Oiliest foe the year
tut bag reeds
Mr. 11 UR wide he Shedd wish Se knew hew many Cadets
hod readied willbstyworidoilensdorkg she last year?
lord PALMERSTON ogled tlat .14 Cadets had anyalred
anodedees bi pirsalmee, amine yahoo purchase.
Mrs MUMEasii Ilse deb was a wry small ppetsoppieettt out of the
seeder el Cokes ohs were supported in the
Mr IL HARDINGE said, that various eirrunestani
premint.msey oldie °slew/rem sinernig boa she array.
Ma HUMS said. Is was absurd to have so Olkers, with sob
large sabetes, fir the advance el es nays.
Sir ALEXANDER HOPE contended that the num-
ber of Cadets who entered the army was no criterion
whatsoever of the utility of this Institution. In the
beginning of the last war we were obliged to have Aar.l
trian ORcers to do the staff duties in tie British army.
whereas, since that period, this Institution had sent oat
Officers into the army, who have been capable of per-
foaming these duties in the most efficient manner. The'
(Wage did not profess to give commissions to all those
Iwho ought be edssiued into it, but Only to those who
Mid passed in a satisfactory maser a most severe ex-
smiestion. The lies. Member coscloded by eulo-
teinezeghe syseepe a education which was practised in
College, asiuloserved, that it qualiSed men for fa-
listcwith ere& any ideation, either in war or peace.
;Mr. HUME said, the difference between !Anvil/ and
41ko Noble Lord opposite, was not whether these cadets
=
be well educated or not, hmt..whether they
receive each education et the ?Mlle expense
at their own P
• Lard PALMERSTON said. le Iteld in his.head a
'mom of the somber of cadets who had been admitted
this college lace its first imitation : thesauri*,
2,958: of these, 1,820 had received commissions
the army, sod 190 bad received toMmissions in
a &set India Company's service, so that the college
bad seat out upwards of 1,880 :Seers since 1802.
Mr.. MONCX. said be could see no reason why the
country should be burdened with the expense of edu-
coin parties for the military rather thanfor any ether
profession: hefelt no doebt bet that if this 'imitation
were to be put down, we should still have an ample
supply et efficient Officers educated at their ownexpense.
air ALEXANDER HOPE said, that after parents
had, at the call of the public, devoted their offspring to
• severe.end hazardous profession, ,they bad a right to
efirtatheit the public should sustain the charges of
their education.
' ilk SDMWJD CARRINGTON, in answer to the
stlisark of the Hon. Member for Reading. observed,
r then from tbs ample resources and enlarged views of
the Statesmen, Prelates, and Sovereigns of former ages,
ideation for the professions of law, physic, and thin.
' nity;'had been supplied from the earliest times by an.
' mumps lad adequate fooadetioas. Uwe was sto sub
!.provision made for military education until this•Ests-
Wilhite's was created, and by that the chasm had beeni
howur•bly and properly filled up, to the,lufiatit adr
mintage of the public service.
Mr. MONC/L said, that so far from thinking that
without this establishmentthere would be no candidates',
fur the military profusion, it was his opinion there
WtIPATICIC thought the inducements which this
,caegieJleld oat zestributed most materially- to cause
the urpty.m be
.averstoFkr.d. .which "be apeadered at
thi_so,Weit_a a erTsAeat *ills
Airs H UME said he disapproved so highly of this
atorbitant grant, that be should move as an amend-
ment, that the sum of 9,0081. should be ;obstipated for
that of 13,0004 and he hoped this initoother yea Olt
.charge 'mold begot rid of altogether.
The Meese then divided, when the numbers were—
For We *ritual Resolution . . 107
Fie the Amendment . . *so
Majority . •73
. The misled *waistline was then pet, and agreed to.
After atopg desultory conversation, in sehich Mr,
gpis, Dardl'Aimeerrow, Sir H. HARDIXO2, COL
-Mama, Mr. FITZGERALD,Sir H.Vivies, Sir A.G a AN;
Mr. MONCK, Lord Homan, and others, took parts, the
following resolutions were carried :
i 1a,t71 Is. 7d. Garrison. Department.
selllsloo Os. ed. Retired Ogee& Pessiees.
.6715,500 Os. ed. Hall.pay.
5/44,544 Its. 7d. Military Allowances to &died Often.
4104400 Os. Od. Foreign °Seen' Pensions.
4411.354 es. Id. Chalets Hospital. •
111.112,000 12s. ed. Out.Peasiewers
41111,044 its. ed. Royal Military Asylum.
£155,663 les. id. Widows' Passions.
ZIP/1.06S 15$. 6d. Compassionate List.
A5:1,193 194 ad. were voted for the Superannuation and
- . retired Allowances, and
.1113,000 for Zeck/oar Dills.
The 9tatityamthea reported progress. and o'3tained
*we to sit again oa Wednesday. Tut Report to be
*ought up opossum.
The other Orders of the D iy were then disposed of,
MONK Hou cadjoutned at fiat., ran ELUTES. i

snisbt

of their mi.' be recommended to the'Honse Co toy the subject by the tend to say that he was incapable of doing his
recover their cash account, and no other. ,
afterwards to, Mr. HERSIES•gaid bill. l
ehtHon. Friend t•iie &skid,* desirous to Afire. It filfre was ape
Id assure the'aarselloverf the 41Stbequebt),10Arlambined :duet teirnmettence Im4o3edfal dim. -Mr. Any had
yof the Army or ! riots in his ,sash --tit. .. clad not coa..
i Amain, gig/to 1111 M cohlkspetenciosthdeity. to
m and fin mtirmtos one kik At) yeas.. -., ... : .op tlfetarrison of glib liar -With dials. IDtping
va all, ail . it saitpadoe Ilitancelitorof -the /Et chegu Pi profits of Ibis appointment were not less
shiuld have mentioned to the Rouse the circumstance than SOO/. or 9001. a year. This he surrendered
Wwhen
abcrtl"tthe best Aided to, that of keeping so much money in the he was appointed Deputy Secretary in 1609, ith
4oble Lord on Eschequer.' He considered it by no means right...-. respect to Mr. Moore, he had a pension of SM. a year,
wit goo was a Tak,ng the whole of the expenditure for Ore last ten arising from his having been employed on various foreign
. is.rtstrao_ years, it would be found to amount to 182;600,000k missions; but as Deputy Secretary on the retired list he
... ......• a • - i • a•J•I•1 ---_