Star.
London, England, 1826-04-26 00:00:00

SLAVS PROPRIRTORS.

Mr. HUME presented a Petition from Augustus H.
Beaumont, Plaster in Jamaica, at present raiding in
London, praying an equitable regard to the interests of
the Planters in their Slaves. The Hon. Member de-
precated a certain tone which had been used in the
House and out of it, and much as he admired the cau-
tion and firmness evinced upon the subject, by the Se-
cretary for Foreign Affairs, he could not entirely ap-
prove of his statement, that 4he time may come when.
the Colonists should appear contumacious, and if it did,
the Parliament would not.appear to want power. For
his part, he would be sorry that the Parliament and the
Colonies did not concur in the proposed measure. He
was most anxious that the nation, as a nation, should
effect the change, but be did not wish that the measure should he
completed at the expence of the unfortunate possessors of slave
property. He was induced to present the Petition, not only from
the geneaal topics which it embraced, but at the urgent request of
the individual,who conceived his property to be endangered. He
would now move that it be laid on the table.

Mr. Secretary CANNING said, he had no wish to
enter at present into the merits of the Petition, still less
teas he disposed to answer the speech with which the
Hon. Member bad thought proper to preface its intro-
duction. The Honourable Member must rest assured
that the objects, to which he calle#4he attention of the
House, have been provided for as far as they can be
foreseen. would, at a future period, upon the in-
troduction of the motion of which the Honourable and
Learned Member (Mr. Brougham) had given notice,
have the opportunity of discussing the subject, and with
considerable advantage to the whole question. But, in
his opinion, the advantage which would be derived
from the general consideration would -be much preju-
diced if a discussion, such as the present, founded
upon partial or incidental Min, were mourned. Such
Would have to effect, except that of raising the spirit of angry dis-
cutsion, which was nuw fortunately laid, and of extingui,hing that
calm and temperate feeling, with which all must admit that a ques-
tion involving se many intense, and so many feelings should be
approached. He would not trouble the BOOM with any further
observations at present, nor show an example of violating that rule
which he himself had laid down.
The Petition was laid on the table.
INSOLVENT LAW!): INDIA.

Mr. BUMS presented a Petition from H. Ilowel, a free mer-
chant of India, complaining of the tyranny of creditors to their
debtors, and praying for the enactment of an Insolvent Law in India.
After a few words from Mr. W. Write, the Petition was laid on
the table.

Mr. Secretary CANNING presented a Petition from the Ma-
gistracy and Corporation of the !loyal Burgh of Crail, in the
County of Fife, praying for the Abolition of Slavery.—Ordered to
Ue ou the table.

Lord NUGENT, as he intended to withdraw for the
present his motion on the subject of the administration
of justice in the Colonies, which stood for to day, would
mertly state the general objects he had in view. One
was for the regulation of the law between the Planters
and the Colonial Legislature in the.first place, and bp-
rween the planter and the negro in the next. He also
wished to abolish the higher offices of justice, and only
to leave a Chief Justice, and a couple of Crown Law-
yers, with high salaries, in each of the three principal
Islands. He would also prevent those Officers from
holding any offices and property in the Islands, is order
to guard against any undue bias in the decisions they
would be called upon to make on property, in which
they felt a personal interest. It was a great object to
the. Proprietors of Slaves, who at p. *sent suffered ma-
, terlaUt front the alai-administration of justice, that a menure of
this kind would be introduced. He trusted Government would
take up the subject, as the Report sent to hirrr last night by the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilmot Horton) evinced an anxiety en their
pan to improved', administration of justice in the Colonies.
Mr. WILMOT-11ORTON a,sureJ the Noble Lord
that it was the intentiod of Goverement to undertake
the task to which be allodad, and submit to the atten-
tion of. Parliament, ss soon as possible after a proper
ennekleratien of the Report, sock measures as they deemed ad-
visable. Under these eireuesemetes, bethought it would be urine.
cemary toenter at present into any consideratien of the subject.—
, The needed was then wkitdrawn.

TILONIit COUNILL

Mr. G..LAMB rosy, in pursuance of his notice, to
move for leave to bring in a Bill to entitle prisoners to
Counsel on charges of 'felony. Since be last brought
this measure before the consideration of the House,
nothing had occurtol to chtpge his opinion, although i
many circumstances to confirm it, among a hich not
the least important was the eumple alike Right Hon.

Secret:my for the Home Department. He proceeded
to quote various authorities, nding to.ehew.4bat it
was of the, very spirit of th ws of this countty to
f
permit deNtnce by.tountel: that great palladium
of our liberties, .. Magna Charm," it 4ss declared that
....ir no one should be tried but per judicium miter's out
per legem terra ;" and this, he contended, referred as
well to charges of felony as any other, inasmuch as at
that period-the Crown had not taken on itself the office
of prosecutor. He cited. Whitelock and Justice Black-
Aone's Commentaries to the -same eff. et. Even Justice
Jeffries, when called on to give his opinion on this sub-
ject, declared that it was not exactly in accordar.ce
with the. spirit of the Enlish laws to refuse Comae' to
prisoners. Lord Chief Justice Hale and Justice Atkins,
on the trial of Lord Russen,expressed the same opinion ;
and Sir Bartholomew Shower, who wrote a pamphlet

. .
in support of the sentence on that Nobleman, stated in
it that he could not advocate the system of refusing
Counsel to prisoners: Sir M. Forster, one of the most
eminent criminal lawyers that had ever sat on the
Bench, had also delivered his opinion, most elaborately,
to the same effect, in his work on the Crown Laws, in
which he says,
" At Common Law, no Counsel is allowed upon the issue of
guilty or not guilty in any capital case whatsoever, except upon
questions of law ; and then only in doubtful, not in plain, cases.—E
am far from disputing the propriety of this rule while it is confined
to ftlory, and the lowa class of treasons concerning the coin and
the seals. I know many things have been thrown out upon this
subject, and inconveniences, some real, some imaginary, have been
suggested by popular welters, who seent to have attended singly
to those on one side of the question; but it is impttssible, in a state
of imperfection, to keep clear of all inconveniences, though wisdom
will always direct us to the course which is subject to the fewest and
the least; and this is the utmost human wisdom can do."

This was an age of improvements ; the hacknied phrase
" the wisdom of our ancestors" was no longer a cabalis-
tic word of prohibition ; for improvements were daily
introduced as well into the law as into the administration
of it. Opposition might be made to his motion, in the
same manner as last year, as being an innovation, but
he could shield himself within the shade of a Right Hon.
Secretary, whose Bill for the improvement of the
Criminal Law was now on the table. If the Criminal Law
could be improved in its enactments and specifications,
could it not also be improved in its administration? If no
improvement could be effected in the administration of
the law, was it not strange to find that the property of the
subject was to be protected by his Counsel in civil cases,
while his life was to be left unprotected in criminal
ones ? He could net, therefore, but regard the Bill of
the Right Hon. Secretary as forming a strong prece-
dent for his measure. But it was said, " Where is the
utility of your improvement? Is not the Judge Counsel
for the prisoner.?" His answer to those two questions
was easy and satisfactory. " The Judge is not Counsel
for the prisoner, but for public justice ; it is the duty of
the Judge to see that all proceedings are fairly con-
ducted on both sides." This opinion was founded upon
conviction, it was strengthened by experience, and it
was warranted by the highest authorities. He bad
received communications on this subject from various
parts of the country; among them was one from
Exeter, containing an extract from the charge of Sir
William Garrow to the Grand Jury of Devonshire,
in August, 1824, in which the sentiments of the
Learned Judge were explained, as condemning the
practice of refusing the benefit of an Advocate to felons.
The gi►ing Counsel power to speak in cases of treason
had not led to any of the evil consequences which were
.as vividly pictured. But if so much evil was appre-
hended from making the Judge reply on the Counsel,
was that improved by making him, as at present, reply
on the prisoner? Nothing, he thoukht, could be so
objectionable as the Judge replying on the prisoner.—
If the prisoner be his own advocate, he clearly labours
lunder a great disadvantage, if he be a dull man ; but
perhaps he labours under a still greater if he be a
clever man. He remembered a case in which a pri-
soner, charged for a burglary, asked a witness " if he
was sure it was quite dal k when the robbery was com-
mitted ?" The Judge, in charging the Jury, told them
this was a circumstance very much to the disparage-
ment of the prisoner, for it was always a bad sign
when a prisoner was so learned in the law. Be-
sides all this, it was quite impossible that a Judge
could make himself so well acquainted with all the cir-
cumstances of the prisoner's case as a counsel specially
retained for the purpose could. There was in fact no
greater anomaly to be found except J ick Cade's law,
which said " I will hang thee, if it is only because thou
halt pleaded for thy life so well." No better proof of
the evils resulting horn prisoners defending their own
cases could be found than in the examples of Thurtell
and Bellingham. Judges very rarely in ancient times,
and still more so in modern times, lost their temper so
as to reply in an improper way, or rubject themselves to
the imputation of being Counsel against the prisoner.
In regard to Bellingham's defence, it was a tissue of
calumnies on third persons, such as would never have
been hazarded by counsel, for no Judge could exercise
over the prisoner the same control that he coi,ld over
the counsel. Ooe of the advantages of this Bill would
be, that there would not be so many perjured juries
From his expetience in et iminal cow ts, he was quite
sure that the verdict of a jury did not carry that con-
viction with it that it ought to do. The public know
that if there be any doubt, the whole case will be te.
vised and silted with the greatest care in the office of she
Secretary for the Hom: Department before the sentence
is carried into execution. Had we not lately seen the
case of the man first tried for the robbery of Lord Cow-
per's house, who was reptieved almost at the foot of the
gallows? Again, to mention another case: Catherine
Ferris was convicted of perjury, but was afterwards
foood innocent, and received the King's pardon. Such
instances, which were by no means unfrequent, :hewed
the necessity of there being Counsel for the prisoners
who were brought to trial for charges of this nature.—
It had beep objected to him, on a former occasion, that
he bad dwelt too much on cases of treason, but it was
impossible to separate the crimes of felony and treason,
in this inquiry. What, he would a,k, was the reason
why, when Peers were tried before the High Court of
Parliament for felonies, even where no witnesses were
called for the defence, yet the Counsel for the prosecu-
tion had the privilege of replying, as was proved in the
Cases of Lord Ferrers, Lord Upon, and the Duchess of
'Kingston, in which last instance the privilege was
claimed by Mr.Wedderburn, the then Solicitor General?
It was not, however, forth. House to legislate for the
Peerage. If they chose a bad or defective mode of
trial, it was their own fault. It was not long since this
House bad abolished trial by battle. Vet even in this barbarous
mode of trial the sickly, the infirm, the woman, the infant, could
choose a champion ; but In our Courts of Justice; where life is in
far more peril, we deny the same privilege even to an iofant. Ile
should, therefore, move for leave to bring in a Dill to enable pri-
, miners prosecuted fur felony to make their-den:tire by Counsel.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL was saubfied tnet his
Haas and beached Friend and hinise.l had etinelly is

.view what would be best for the a 'rnini,tra ion of jos:
rice; but after the fullest consideration he had been en-
abled to bestow upon the subject, and an anxious
reference to all the authorities within his reach, he was
persuaded that the change proposed would in its rffects
he adverse to the calm, fair, dispassionate, and candid
administration of criminal justice. The opinion of the
Bar upon the question was, he believed, divided; of the
opinions of the Bench he was not able particularly- to
speak, but he had reason to think that it was unfavour-
able to the proposed alteration. But he was not to be
determined by considerations f this kind—he would

give his unbiassed and independent opinion upon the
merits of the question, as far as his own expel ience and
application had enabled him to form an opinion upon
it. His Hon. and Learned Friend had said, that if he
opposed the permission for Counsel to defend prisoners
accused of felony, he ought in consistency to be adverse
to the employment of Counsel in cases of miscleMeas
nour, as the same arguments would equally apply td
both. He admitted that they did; but what • he
said was, that if the measure were a doubtful one,
it ought to be adopted with extreme caution...as.
it it were once allowed that persons accused of
felony should be defended by Counsel, it would
bt. imeos..ible for them ever to retrace their stepse-a
There was not an individual who heard him hut had
been present at the administration of criminal justice;
and he would appeal to them whether it was possible
that proceedings could exhibit more temper, coolness,
and fairness, than they did. It was true that an address
was permitted by Counsel for the prosecution, but if
they overstep the line of duty they are always corrected
by the Judge. He did not mean to say that in no
instance whatever had this practice been abused by the
introduction of matter not strictly explanatory of the
evidence which was to follow. But it was an abuse
which the proper feelings of the Bar, and tbe,vigilatece
of the Bench rendered extremely rare. After that ad-
dress came the evidence for the prosecution, which was
heard calmly, deliberately, and cautiously. Then-fol-
lowed the case for the prisoner, conducted by his Goon-
sel, and lastly the Judge summed up the whole, not,
as had sometimes been said, in the character of Conned
for the prisoner, not as Counsel for either party,
but as Counsel for both, so far as to see that the
facts have been properly sifted, and that the law
applieato the facts. He thus submits to the Jury a cairn,
temperate, and dispassionate view of the whole case.
What substitute, then, was offered in lieu of this? Yon
are to excite a conflict, in which the zeal and emulation
of Counsel, intent only on carrying their respective
points, are to be brought into play, in place of the calm
and solemn proceedings which now take place. In
those criminal cases which came before the Court of
King's Bench, he saw the effect of this daily. Counsel
employed in a case of perjury or conspiracy displayed
the s.me zeal, the same eagerness, the same desire to
withdraw whatever might militate against the interest
of their client, as in any civil action. The question
then for the House to decide was, whether any advan-
tage was to be expected from this change ; or rather,
whether these advantages were so great as to indoce
them to hazard the excellent system now in rilWillte
for the sake of the experiment? He put the que,tiots
practically. Let them not depend upon the opinion of
Sir Michael Forster or Mr. Justice Blackstone, but let
them form a judgment for themselves upon a full con-
sideration of the subject. He had no personal feelings
on one side of the question or the other; let him be con-
vinced by argument that the alteration would be bene.
facial, and he would be quite ready to give it his.support.
The chief objects in criminal proceedings was the full
admission and the calm consideration of evidence: If
Counsel were to be heard on behalf of the privner, it
' would be an anomaly unless the same rules,limitations,
and conditions, were prescribed at 'in the superior
Courts, in which, when evidence was called for the de-
fence, the plaintiff's Counsel had a right of reply. It
was the most anxious question the Counsel for a de.
fendant had to consider, whether, by calling witnesses,
he should give to die plaintiff's Counsel, he having
already produced the first impression, the advantage of
producing also upon the minds of the Jury the last im-
pression ? It was infinitely better for the investigation
of truth that the evidence should be heard fairly, fully,
and impartially, on both sides, and afterwaxds calmly
summed up by the Judge. One other observation was
essential upon this subject. He had stated that the
Judge was not to be considered as an advocate for the
prisoner, hut it was of the utmost importance that the
Judge should not appear adverse to the prisoner.—
Now suppose the Counsel for the prisoner, as would fre-
quently occur, should deter Mille to sacrifice the advan-
tage of calling witnesses in order to secute What he
might deem the greater advantage or making a speech
not to be replied to. The Judge would, in this case, 1 e
obliged to correct the fallacies of the Counsel for the
prisoner, and as Judges were but men, it was.as.cliffi-
cult for them as for other men, when embatked upon
a current of argument, to stop at the precise line, and
thus an impression would be frequently cleated that the
Judge had pressed hardly upon the prisoner, and that
the unfavourable verdict was owing to him. He would
then go back to the original question—is the present
administration of justice defective? He would not say
that the administration of the law was perfect, but be
would aay that it was excellent, and hi was nit &trona -if ha.
girding a change, and particularly a change which Its advocates in-
tended must be productive if the most inspirta.nt effects. His
objections went to the whole principle of the proposed change, and
it was therefore as well to state them wow as on any submission
stage if the pr, bceeding.—(Hear, hear I)
Mr. J. WILLIAMS said, that his Hon. Friend (the
Attorney-General) had taken too professional and tech-
nical a view of the question, and had not considered
the proposition in relation to the feelings of the people
of England. In the indictment of Evans .for murder,
at Manchester, the inhabitants of that town were di.
vided in their opinions whether he was guilty or not,
and it WAS necessary that criminal justice should be ad-
ministered, so that the people should have no doubt of
its certainty, or of its impartiality. A man whose life
was at stake was, from that circumstance, incapacitated
Member, 01 am tried for felony—(A laugh)—l won't
from making his defence. 44 When I," said the Hon.
be my own Counsel. The proverb un that subject is
known to everybody. Next, I shall be exceediagly dis-
inclined to have my Judge for my Counsel---(fiettr).
I would much rather prefer my Hon. Friend (the At-
torney-General) if, indeed, he was not employed ex
Ode against me—(al laugh)." In his expel ience he
must say, that nothing could possibly be more unsatis-
factory than the appearance of persons accused, and
without the aid if Counsel. They
were always miler the into-
en" of terror; their speeches were, therefore,injudronis, and dm
whoa, spectacle deprived the audience of all idea al the accused
person having a fair &Anse of defence.
Mr. Secretary PEEL had been induced to give much
consideration to the
question before them. by the usue
pleats which bed bast used by lee! Gentlemen on a

'former debate, and he would candidly confess, that such
- was the influence of the•legal ingenuity of disputation
on his mind, that on that occasion his opinion vaccillat
between both sides of the question—he was involved
and entangled in the mazes of the law's ambiguity—.
but having bis doubts on the policy of a change of the
system, he thought it safer to give the benefit of thole
dollies to the existing order of things. Since that period
all his subsequent observation and reflection tended to
confirm his doubts, and to convince him of the impolicy
andinespediency of the proposed alteration. In sta;ing
the impression which he felt on this subject, he must claim
for himielf to be free from all professional prejudice.
far as his own inlet est was concerned, the alteration now
proposed would be extremely satisfactory, because it
would lighten some part of that. which he now felt
to be the most painful part of his duties. He
meant the revision which he was often compelled to
bulky of the sentence between the period at which
it had been pronounced, and its execution, when
te was compelled either to decide in a few hours,
'or to grant a respite which might give rise to hopes
wholly without any reasonable foundation. He should
not object to the alteration, because it was an innovation
tip on a practice which had been sanctioned by years—
for that would come with an ill grace indeed from one
who had already more than once endeavoured to abolish
Easton), which, if their antiquity could alone have re-
commended theirovrere entitled to the most absolute
protection. Nor woes it because numerous authori-
ties were yet to be found in favour of the existing
practice; for the same might be said of many others.,
of which he entirely disapproved. On both sides
autlimities might be adduced, the weight and re-
spectaOility of which no one could doubt, and which
placed the mind of any one who examined them, as
Lord Bacon said, in colfluentiis (warm. He was
ready to admit, that whatever would tend to elucidate
the truth, to procure the acquittal of the innocent, and
the conviction of the guilty, recommended its immedi-
ate adoption, and the alteration of the system which
prevailed; but it was because he firmly believed the
motion of the Host. Gentleman, if carried, would not
tend to this, that he opposed it. One of the consideraione
on which his opposition WAS founded was, although not
in itself a very important one, yet not to be lost sight
of—be meant the expense to the prisoners in paying
fees to Counsel, and the delay which must beoccasioned
in the administration of justice. He did not mean to
be understood that any consideration of expense or
delay ought of themsesehres to preclude an alteration like
that now moved for, if it could be *two that justice
was more fairly done in consequence; but be did not
believe (and he bad means as accurate, perhaps, as
any one, of knowing the fact if it were so) that
any iejustice or even inconvenience was felt by the
prisoners themselves under the actual practice. Every
day almost petitions were presented to him on the be-
half of prisoners, which contained various complaints,
but he did not remember ever to have seen one like
those mentioned by his Hon. Friend. Various grounds
were alleged by the prisoners, but none of them com-
plained that Counsel had not been heard on their behalf.
The Hon. and Learned- Gentleman had alluded to the
case of a man named Evans, who was tried at M in-
, chester : in that case it seemed the Judge who presided
found it necessary to check the observations of Counsel,
and to confine himself to facts only. One would have
supposed that the prisoner in that case was convicted,
or st by did the Hon. and Learned Member adduce it?
but the fact was otherwise—he was acquitted. He
(Mr. Peel) very much doubted whether the result would
have been the same, if Counsel for the prisoner had
been heard, and then a reply frorn'the Counsel for the
prosecution. The example of Scotland had been.
referred to in support of the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman's proposition. It was said that in that
country Counsel were allowed to speak for prisoners
charged with felony. It should be recollected, that in
Scotland unanimity was not required from a Jury.—
A majority of eight to seven (the Juries were composed
of fifteen) was sufficient to establish a verdict. The
speech of a Counsel under such circumstances, was not
likely to produce such detriment as when addressed to
a Jury of twelve, who must be unanimous, and who
might be induced to return a verdict contrary to the
evidence by the persuasion of one of their number who
should be captivated by the eloqoencp of the Counsel.
.He was unwilling to risk any change of the present
system, which not only secured the impartial administration of
justice, but gave general satisfaction, if, tender the system which
it was proposed to introduce, the Judge might be rendered less
impartial, and the Jury less free from influence than at present.
(hi these grounds he was compelled testae a reluctant refusal to a
proposition which had Mll4 before tke House recommended in so
fait and temperate a manner. (Hear, Mar!)
Mr. H. TWIN; spoke in favour of the motion. He
contended that it was inconsistent to allow prisoners to
be defended byCounsel on technical points, and not upon
the matter of the indictment. The practice operated in
favour of the guilty, and against the innocent. The
awful situation in which a prisoner was placed on trial
for life, paralyzed those mental facukies, the ends* pas-
session of which was necessary to enable him to make
his defence. It was one of the fallacies which had passed
current for 'centuries, the assertion that the Judge was
Counsel for the prisoner. It might more properly be
said that the dodge was counsel for the prosecution, for
he read all the depositions against him before the trial
commenced. Then how could a Jody act effectually
as Counsel for a prisoner, supposing that he %idled ?
It was not, however, in all cases that a judge desired
the prisoner's acquittal. Sir Robert Atkins, in his com-
ments oa Lord Russell's trial, observed, that "1w knew
what sort of Counsel judges were for prisoners." It was
nut in political cases only that judges were likely to
be biassed against prisoners. A judge might desire the
, conviction ot a prisoner (roam a private knowledge of
Ins character, and other causes. A judge, it was true,
was bound to see no wrcng done to a prisoner; but he
was equally bound to see no rroug stooe to the prose-
cutor. He might, therefore, be con sidared Gomel for
ell parties. The case then came to this—that a priso-
ner had to compete with a banister. It was quite
impossible that a prisoner could egfpctpally contend
against the Reotenees of a Couusel, whose faeultins (be
r ',units); no risk, having nothing
.to lobe by the mine)
..%,. re completely at bis command, whilst the prisoner
st; as subdued lie knowing that if he lost the victory he
must also lo e his life—(Hear).--The Hon. and, owned
Member then proceeded to Wiest that it was possible for
the public prosecutor todeprive a prisoner of the ;elven-
tage of a defence by Counsel, by taking advaotage
r f the tecl-ankelities of the roototes, and indicting
bias for a felony instead of A inibriertwanour--( fleet).
if a native of Scotland—wbere this hardship is an-
known—shouid meet any Member of the House next
Iday, and ask, what aiduousprc,iblem in Legislation had
been occupying them this night, what account would
be render of hit di.quiaition '.4 le would hove to teed

the inquirer, that the House had been Considering the
question—whether, in a Court of Criminal Justice,.
be fit to hear both side! equally; whether, theugh- in
civil cases, where only property is at issue, both sides
should be equally heard, there ought not not to be a
difference where liberty and life were at state? (hear)
Whether it might not be the best way of dealing with all
prisoners who could not defend themselves, being 999
out of every thousand, to condemn them unheard ? He
was glad the Right Hun. Secretary had disposed of the,
discreditable argument about the consumption of time
by the addresses of the Counsel. Whet ! could the
country find time enough to accuse the prisoner, time
enough to convict him, time enough to inflict the pu-
nishment of death uptut him, and could not find time
to hear the reasons for his acquittal? The Right Hon
Secretary had dealt with the argument in his usual
manly tone, and he believed it would have no more
effect on the House than he was sure it would have

with the Judges of die land, who would not grudge their
time for the justice of their country. He trusted the
House would decide on no arguments drawn from per.
soul convenience, or the darkling Actin's of the law, but on those
grounds of broad reason and plain justice—opposed,indeed, but not
yet shaken—which prescribe that we should give to the accused the
same chances and means with his accuser—(block cheering).
Mr. RICEIA RD MARTIN congratulated the House
that this manure, which he himself had brought for-
ward three several times, was at last likely to be carried
into effect. This would encourage him to commit
the care of other Gentlemen other Bills which he had
had the honour to propose, and he had little doubt but that they
too would ultimately become the law of the land, notwithstanding
be, in bringing them forward, had been ativnatisti as a promoter
pf petty legislation.

Mr. TINDAL said, from time immemorial the pri-
soner accused of felony bad possea.ed the right of being
assisted by Counsel, u hose duty it was to cross.examine
the witnesses against him, and to call the attention of
the Judge to arty points which might arise in the pro-
gress of the trial ; the only thing complained of was,
that he was prevented from replying to the speech of
the Counsel for the prosecution. Now, what was the
nature of that speech? In general practice, it was
limited to a plain, simple statement of the facts of the
case; and if an advocate %%eta beyond that, he was
stopped by the Judge. The Judge, during the progress
of the case, toolenotes of the evidence of the facts,
which he afterwards read over to the dory, and directed
them if they bad any doubt to give it in favour of lie
prisoner. Now, what was asked by the adtiscates of
the proposed change? That as in prosecutions for
treason and misdemeanour Counsel should be heard in
reply. The consequence of that change would be
immediately to alter the character of the Counsel for the
prosecution from a simple minister of justice to the advo-
cate of a party. Every one knew how different was the
course pursued by Counsel under these different circum-
stances. In civil cases they were not very chary of in-
sinuation:or extreme statements to possess the minds of
the Jury against what would follow from rivals of their
own experience and talent. nits the personal feelings of
tie advocate would be brought in,and the passions of the
Jury excited against the prisoner; and instead of giving
him new means of defence, they would be raising up a
new arm witli which he would have to contend. The
Hun. and Learned Member then read a passage from
the work of M. C ttu, in which he describes. in terms
of high admiration, the method of trial in cases of felony. The
Hun. and Learned Gen:kman concluded by saying be had made
up his mind that the change would be any thing but a benefit, and
hr called upon the Hottsvio pause before it came to a resolution
which would do more thap any thing else to alter the tone and cha-
racter of the administration of criminal justice in this country.
Lord ALTHOItP's principal reason for objecting to the present
system was, that it gave so great an advantage to a prisoner of edu-
cation over one who was unedocated.

Mr. SCARLET 7' said, that at one time he had been
of opinion that this measure was not likely to be bene.
ficial, but since then he had seen reason to change that
opinion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman adduced
several cases which fell within his own practice and ex-
perience, in which the speech of Counsel would have
elucidated the cases, to his certain knowledge, beyond
the entire force of the evidence; in some of those cases
the certainty would have been acquittal; in others con-
viction ; but in all of them the ends of justice would
have been much more advanced than by the verdicts
which were actually pronounced. As to the argument
about wasting time, he thought that more time was
wasted at present. The Counsel were compelled to set
out the scope of their arguments by laboured cross-exa-
minations, and the Judge was by necessity disposed to
indulge in their prolixity, because the form of proceed
inn shut them out from the opponunity of setting forth
those argnmests in a speech. Muck as he prized the solemn and
deliberate course of justice in our crimisal coons, he did not think
that the tendencies to acquit the prisoner, which prevailed in that
jurisprudence, were any advantage to the ends of justice. At any
race, be strongly recommended that tho Bill of his MM. Friend
should be introduced and undergo deliberation in the Hsu&
The SOLICITOR GENERAL, after pointing out
the conflicting effects of the opinions given by the
advocates for this bill, as to whether it would tend more
to acquit the innocent or convict the guilty, declared
that the whole measure embraced so formidable a
novelty in the Constitution and Criminal Law of the
land that it was impossible to entertain it. He admitted
that there was an apparent inequality in the ground
upon which prosecutor and prisoner stood with respect
to each other. But this was made perfectly even ty the other ar-
rangements of a criminal trial, more especlally in the sympathy
shown for the fate of the prisoner by the presiding Judge.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that he did not wean to
detain the House at any length, but he wished to state
mohortly as possible the reasons which induCed him to
vote in support of the motion of his Hon. Friend. Be
was free to acknowledge that he formerly had felt
some doubts on the propriety of the measure, bat never
saw the difficulties attending it in so formidable a light
as some had done; end now, having euamined those
difficulties, he had come to a conclusion favourable to
the introduction of the Bill. The Right Hon. Se-
reretary of State said he had never known a claim to
mercy preferred op the ground of improper proceed-
ings at the trial. It might be so; but no man who
me, the fearful odds against a prisoner who had
Counsel against hiss, as none for him, could avoid
ying that justice minted something more. The most
veinal question was, ought the country to be satisfied
*th this part of the trios** law ? Was it intended to
be said that calmness and dignity were observed in all
al proceedings ? Points of law were often raised
•..Cooosol, with ocnuwkedligs that the Judge must de-
-4140 against them. May were not ohisetions made to
decided in their favour,butmade to catch the attention
of the Jury, whom Counsel had not the right of address-
iqg. By s deitirs ..tp per pima., the Amami practice,
tiley weie eaceutagiog those complaints of the admiais-
Dation of criminal ristices which a great legislator
wished to reform, rust did sot live to see amended.—
Mot distinguished and great man objected to nothing
mo a than the license givisa to Counsel to open it peole-

cation by a statement affects. Now, would a promo-
tor desire any thing better in a case, in which there
was'a great deal ark ireemistainialeyidence, than a state-
ment of circumstances? Vie facts might b.- sn worep
together, or placed in such *Eta position, as to make an
impression too great perhaps to be afterwards removed
by the observations and con3ments of Counsel for the
prisoner. The simple facts themselves became a living
witness, if he might so call it, against the prisoner.—
With testect to the other topic Tiled against the ma
tion, which he had before allud to, was , the alleged
waste of time it would necessarily involve. Supposing
it to be so, they were nit to we how much time was
occupied in administering justice, but to see that it was
administered. If the present number of Judges and
Assizes could not get through the business in proper time, let the
number of both be increased. It was upon these grounds that he
should support the motion, and should the Bill be brought in, he
should support it throughout.

Mr. Secretary CANNING.—It cannot be expected,
that alter wheat has been said, I should be able to throw
any additional light upon the subject, and I merely rise
to explain the grounds upon which I intend to give my
vote against the motion. I have, Sir, attended with
earnest anxiety to the arguments advanced by both
parties on this subject, in the course of the debates, to
which it has at different times given rise—debates dis-
tinguished above others, for the eloquence and candour
with which the subject has been discussed. The Hon. and
Learned Member who has just sat dawn, originally
entertained the doubts, which I confess, still prevail on
my mind. but which have, he says, been shaken by
what he has heard and seen. If, in his long experience,
the Hon. and Learned Member who has just sitdown,
and the Hon. and Learned Member for Peterborough,
have only now had their doubts shaken. it will be par-
doned in rue, an unlearned person, if I still entertain'
mine. Whin these debates began, I prepared to listen
with no other prejudice than that which an Englishman
naturally feels for the institutions tb which he has bait
accustomed to look up to with reverence, particularly,
that part of our institutions which all na,tions allowed
surpassed their own. After all I have heard, it appears
to me the natural course is to oppose this Bill on the
threshold ; a course which a tubject like this absolutety.
requires. It is the principle I oppose. and not the dot
tails ; and it seems to me, that in the state of doubt in
which the greater part of us are, and which even the
Hon: and Learned Gentleman opposite feels, it would,
be best for us to oppose the introduction of this Bill ; not,
however, precluding other debates on the subject. IF,
in the course of those debates I should change my opi-
nion, I shall, of course, come to a different conclusion
from what I do now, and shall agree to it. At present,
having attended, with great care, to the arguments on
both sides, it appears to me, that if not trim'', they
preponderate in favour of the present system remainin
unchanged. But if , they were only equal, I think it
ought to remain unchanged till a stronger opinion is
expressed by the House in favour of the alteration.. I
confess I have heard no complaints made of the prod*
system, and if there is any apprehension in the Hone%
it is, as far as I can discover, of the change taking
place. There is certainly no anxious desire to see it. If
I were convinced of the necessity for the alteration, and
I am sure I need not defend myself against the ordinary
topic of not desiring the change on account of its being
a change, but I say if I were convinced of the necessity
of a change, I should
.be ready to give my vote for it,
cr, indeed, for any other which might be of advantage
to the public. However, till the advantages in favour
Hof the alteration predominate, it will be safer to main-
tain the present system. Whether it would produce
more acquittals or convictions, is nothing to the pur-
pose, our object is the elucidation of truth—(Heer).—
Wes are not to consider what the comparative amount
of the acquittals and convictions would be, but how
far we can- increase the amount of confidence in the
people, of the justice and correctness of the sentences
of the Judges of our Criminal Courts. I think the pro-
portion the acquittals bear to the trials, considering the
various previous stages a case has to go through before
corning to trial, affords a pretty fair presumption, that
the practice did not fall to the disadvantage of the pri•
soners. I mean to say, that the number of condemniiv
tions shewed the prisoners had not such odds again*
them as have been supposed. This fact does not change,
the conviction I have upon my mind, that an alters.
tion in the law is needless. But it would not merely be
a change in the mode of conducting criminal trials
of this particular description, but would operate
upon the whole administration of criminal justice.—
Upon that ground I alone should prefer maintaining
things as they are, unless I am Jed to alter my opinion.
I do not at present see any reason to alter it ; for, as 1
said before, the presumption is, that the convicts are
mercifully dealt by, and it will not induce me to change
my opinion to tell me that there is a chance of an inno-
cent man being punished, and our anxiety to let no
doubtful case escape us. Upon the whole, I do not,
think that there is any apprehension that justice will la
any material degree suffer (and it will certainly besafer)
if we remain where we are, till the Minds of the people
were more made up about it, and till the call for the
'change shall prevail more generally than now. I shall,
therefore, vote against the introduction of the Bill us
amine, as it would be unfair to lead the Honourable
and Learned Member into a discussion hereafter by ad-
witting it now. Ido not oppose the introduction of the Bill, I
can *Sure the Hon. Gentleman, from any feeling of hostility, for I,
Wok he has 'acted property in introducing it; but I oppose #
limply on tlp.grounds I have before stated. 1
Mr. DEN Id ?N ettcongly supported the motion, taking credit to
!for two eepverta to ids view of the question. Every Hem-
was allowed to use his own discretioo. He ib.ught that when
a man's life was its danger he should not be deprived of a prielieP
which would not be denied Wm if it was a tenement of is a year
which was a stake.
The gallery was thee cleared for a division; when there appeared
For the Modal, Sc I Against it, M.—Majority, 60.
Mr. Secretary PEEL moved that the Petty Larceny Bill be read
again that day three months.—Agreinl te.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two &Cum

Yesterday afternoon, the Deputy• Governor of that
Bank of England had sa interview with the Kul of Livaaeoot. at
his house in Whitehall.
The Cortami,sioners for building dditional churches
had a meeting yesterday at their Warm in Parliament-street. The
Archbishop of CA Ilszasuav sad the Bishop of Lennon were present.
The fight between Ddtch S drt and (limy Cooper
took place yesterday, at Grape, opposite Gravesend, ter 50 soy.
Both men are well known in the ring as aisle erateaees, girl* bad
fought many battles. Harry dolt and 131e.k ereesitleil
and Jern Ward and the brother of Coopir Il lted for lilMs.
tiag was 2 to I op Sass, said di. rusk of WI bud* felt ifswill4
the odds. isrhe Fes let the Nat reap& Irtte wag lutedlittle mere
than a quarter ot an hour.
Willow Herring. an Irish labourer, was brought
ktfoCe tlw AJkrWt 44 %Olt/ arleltiscilair egged iv ith hsvino
nearly murdered his wife. t ?Owner did set attempt to say
anything in hie detente, and be was Amended tot fart bet mum&
h nation nest Saturday.

INDIA.

ADMIRALTY MICE, Aram la, 11111.
espy are Letter from Csnimodore Sir jam's. Brisbane, C. B no
aishaMillooss Croksr, Esq. dated on board the Hon. Company's
steam-vessel Diana, above Prow, on the Irawaddy, the ad •
Dee. 183.5:
Sta—The enemy having approached Prome in lasge
bodies of men, evidently with the intention of drawing
a line of circumvallation round the British position, I
beg you will be pleased to inform the Lords Commis-
sioners of the Admiralty, that the Commander of tfie
Forces moved out on the Ist instant, for the purpme of
attacking the left column, a short distance in the in-
terior, and requested that I would, at the same time,
make a diversion in his favour, by engaging the enemy's
centre position at Pagoda Point, with the flotilla under
my immediate command. It is extremely strong, both
by nature and art, and is situated on the left bank of
the river, a few miles in advance of Prolix. I am happy
to say that the result of these arrangeinents was de-
cidedly favourable; the enemy's left column, consisting
of ablaut 14,000 men, being completely overthrown,
their ordnance and the whole of their commissariat
captured, and a heavy loss of men. The next day
(yesterday) the Major-General determined on following
up the blow by an attack upon Pagoda Point, the object
of the fat mer diversion ; the flotilla covering the advance
of the army along the shore. After a cannonading of
several hours, the troops rushed forward to the assault,
overcame the natural obstacles which presented them-
selves, and carried the position in the most gallant style.
The flotilla at the same time pushed en up the river,
and captured the whole of the enemy's boats (amounting
to about three hundred), together with several guns,
four hundred muskets, and a I irge quantity of stores.
I have much satisfaction in stating, that the whole of
the officers and men employed in the flotilla conducted
themselves throughout this service in a manner that
reflects the highest credit on each individual, composed
as this force is of various establishments. The officers
of the Hon. Company's Marine vied with those of the
Royal Navy in gallantry and exertion. captain chadag
of the Alligator, who commanded the light division,
displayed the same zeal, judgment, and orrepidity,
which have characterised his conduct since the opera-
tions in this quaker began. I have, however, the painful
duty of announcing the death of Captain .1. F. Dawson,
of the Arachne, whose high professional character had
induced me so recently to promote him to the rank of
' Commander. The gallantry of this much-lamented
_officer was conspicuous on all occasions, inviting, by
his example, the exertions of all under his direction: he
fell just as success had crowned our efforts. •
I cannot dose this letter without expressing my ad-
miration of the steadiness, good order, and discipline of
the troops in advancing along a line of m 4rch, inter-
sected with thick jungle, and a succession of intrench-
meats, until the storming took place. The two arms
of his Majesty's service are in full and hearty co.
operation for the objects of the present expedition ; and
every success may be hoped for from the perseverance
and resolution of Sir Archibald Campbell, the distils.
guisbed Commander of the Forces.
1 have the honour to be, ate.
(Signed) JAMBS BRISBANE, Commodarm
=TRACT Of A LATTER. FROM Alt OFFICER.

.44 Camp lefore Baturpore, Dee. IS, nat.

. .
" Here we are laying siege to the far-famed Bhurt-
pore which thwarted Lord Like's most strenuous eff tits
to take it in 1805, and created the strongest s-nsations
in England at the time I
.WAS bidding you all farewell.
Little did I then imagine that I should command a
corps forming part of the force which was next to gn
against this celebrated and formidable fortress ; but as
oar means are very far superior to those pouessed by the
former assailants, our expectations of success are pro-
portionably great. Lord Cnmbermere is here in per.
son, with all his staff, they havinic all come up by post
for that purpose. As yet, parties for reconnoitering
the place (which is about eight miles in circumference)
are the only duties which have been called for;
these chiefly consist of cavalry, who have occa.
sionally fallen in with bodies of the enemy's bone,
of whom a few only have been cut up. The bat.
teries are expected to open in the course of a week,
when it is probable we shall all have enough to do. My
will is made, so that in the event of any accident
befalling me, nothing may he left undone which I might
wishotherwise. We marched from Caw npore on the 10th
of November, arrived at Agrah on the 3d instAaving
waited about five days, a march on the other side of it,
in consequence of Lord Combermere's not having time
to complete his arrangements ; were reviewed by his
Lordship on the 4th ; left Agrah on the 10Th; and ar-
rived at Bhurtpore on the 13th. It will, perhaps, syr.
prise you to learn, that in the whole army ours is the
only corps commanded by a Captain. In a few months,
however, I expect to be deprived of this honour, which
I have had the accidental good fortune to enjoy since
June last."
FROM THI CALCUTTA GOVILANAIANT CIAUTTII

1 MA RT.

POLITICAL DEPARTMENT, Dac. 50, 1525.
The following Capin of Dtchee received from Major-General
Sir Archibald Catnpbet, K.C.B. and K.C.T.S. are herewith
published for general inforniation
TO 0201= swnwes, =Q. BROILBTAIIIT TO GOTERNMENT,
PSLITMAL DIPART3STWT, &C. 101? WiLLIME.
Sin—The enemy, in closing in upon our front, has
been unremitting in his endeavours to intercept our com-
munication with Rangoon. Large bodies of ttoops for
this service have lately passed oar flanks on both sides
of the Irrawaddy, and the State of that river, covered,
.as ill has lately been, with large and valuable convoys
-of gores and treasure, has necessarily caused me much
moiety, and retarded my moving forward.
Sliudoun Mew and the Sarrauddy districts have been
overrun by there itinerant bands, and I have been under
the necessity of detaching Lieutenant Colonel Godwin,
with a strong detachment, for the purpose of driving
the enemy from Shudonn, and, if possible of surprising
parties he might have in that n,ighbourhood. Oa
the night of the 24th, the Lieutenant Colonel marched,
to Shucioun, but the enemy, receiving intelligence of
his approach, Red to the interior, and the detachment
returned to quarters, after clearing the left bank of the
river for 15 miles below Prome.
Oa the western bank I deemed it of importance to
retain possession of Pscioun-Mew, and for tot purpose
stationed 100 men of his Majesty's Royal %meat,
and 100 of the nth Madras Native Infantry, $t that
place, under the command of Captain Dean, pf the
Royals, and supported On the river by a divi iois of the
flotilla, ender the command of Itieummaiht Kellett* the
Navy. This party was rapeoteilly attacked by the
enemy in great force, and Use oneritorkee conduct of
bath officeis and men, as detailaqkin the enclosed cop*
pileups Trost Capons Dail% will.' ant cettMn, obtain
for theta the a pprobscism of the Rt. Hon. the .Gorier.
. (icamal in Commit.

lIRCIIIIT Ala