Star.
London, England, 1821-03-20 00:00:00

TUE QUEEN.

Lord A. H AMILTON remarked, that froma Papa
on the table it appeared that the sum of £46,000
charged for the expense of proceediiigs against he
Majesty. He had always understood, that the charge
for the Milan Commission was paid out of the Sinking
Fund ; and he wished to know whether, if he mortal
for the details of that charge, he should get at the
whole expense of that Commission, or of wh.,t part
of it? In the next place, he would ask, whether, 04
the other side, any objection would be made to a see.
ate motion for the micute details—the sum total,
the persons to whom, and the purposes for which the •
items were paid?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Tv
plied, thit the £4(i,(X)O did not include the whole
expense of the late proceedings. The whole even:
appeared on the face of other documents also oe the
table. He had no objections to produce, *slues
they could he ascertained, and as far as they weld
be- disclosed with propriety, the details of the ex.'
penses of proceedings against her Majesty. lien
Majesty had required not to be called upoe Ice the
details of the mode in which she had expended pats
of the money granted for her defence.
Lord CASTLEREAGH referred to the edit •
which these accounts must undergo at the Imago*.
•The items of charge on bath sides would undergo the.
_
same examination.

Dr. I.USHINGTON observed, that the Hoi •
would be aware how. impossible it or'as lit her Ma.
jesty to furnish all the details of the eipesditwesh;
had' incurred, and the same' difficidtiei leant
equally on the other side—(fkar).—Some
.of
items it might be unfit to submit to.the
hear).—The Crown had been able to obtain
intelligence by its regular 'couriers in:many cars,
while the Queen hid been obliged Le employ ip.etial
messengers, which of itself would foim no incnosv....
derable item of charge—tllear, liar)--As to the
sum taken from
.the Sinking fund, be should be
aorry to sanction such an employment of the money,.
and he had great doubt' whether the sectet service
money were so applicable, •

Lord A. HAMILTON then gave notice, theta
Wednesday sennight he should moye for-the demi*
of the expenses of the Milan Commission, with asp*
ment of the Funds from which they were paid, •
RUSSIAN TARIFF.
Mr. BERNAL requested to know froth. theNcidi
Lord opposite, in what state the commercial isaer-
course between Russiirod England was, respect*
the duties on sugar?
Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that the sallied
was under consideration between the twoGovemnian.
Mr. WARRE said, it was very important iCrtle
colonial interests of the country to have-an ineaki
made reipecfing the new additional duties impaled
upon refined sugar, according to the Rusin Tat
lately published. What he wished to know was, whet
ther the Emperor of Russia had given any direction
to his Minister here to settle the question of ddl6
alluded to in the Tariff?
Lord CASTLEREAGH stated, in reply, We
believed the Emperor of Russia had referred dopy
ticular subject to his Minister for the considetaded
commercial matters, who had not yet made lligo
port. The-subject was, at any rate, still under&
cussion between the two Governments, and be a
not at all despair of an eventually favourable W.
BANK CASII PAYMENTS.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of tie
EXCHEQUER, the House went into a
on the Bank Cash Payment Act. The IhillgtH,
Gentleman stated, that in calling the atteetio_tr
House to the subject of the Currency, it Was
intention to enter. into any question of od's
nomy, or discuss the nature or the
measures formerly adopted by the
take it for granted that the condi
upon this great question had been
in bringing about a gradual restoration
ments. In February, 1820, the
taken, by payments in bullion, and-
the Act, On the Ist of May, 1823,
longer to pay in ingots, but in specie.
a power, at their own discretion, '
issue of cash on the Ist of May, 1,
present was, to enable the Bank to
May, 1821, what by the Act of Pat
not obliged to do till the Ist of M;
Bank, by-the Act, was allowed'
their notes only ; his object was,
to issue specie for any purpose wh;
commencement of the Restriction
a power to, make a partial issue;
been restrained by the Commit
question as to the.circulation of
left to the discretion of the Bank.
be able to state, that the Bank
much: greater sum' in bullion, than
contemplation of the Committee. -
for another year would he attended
convenience to the Bank; and
could be re-exported, should it be
by the state of the exchanges. The
reduction of their notes to the amount
agreeably to the recommendation'

to

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,ecie. The Bask ,
l to issue sprig
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; but that power
‘lll3ta:Bl:ar22ditydt.::,aob.m,elyinaBeßlolti2ishiacennties.thetbi::wasjrrstu,
ittee of 1818.
£1 notes wm d
c. He was 112PPIJ
had accumulat
:han had beep°
!,„ Thb atcum
ended with ten
a part of the P`'
be rendered
Bank bad iss
mount oft 9,
NI of the ColusP )

and the circulation of country paper.might have been
dins: .shed still more than that of the Bank. The
int
eject of parliament in 1819 had been fully realised,
dwhat bad been • contemplated for 1823, would
take place in 1821. 'lf notes were in circulation that
vere difficult to be counterfeited, there would be no
"ia.ed of any alteration oa the plan chalked out by the
Committee. But he'hoped a note might be invented,
that would either defy imitation, or that, at least,
cold not be counterfeited without much- difficulty.
lire Bank would now have the power of substituting
„id for paper, at the same time that those who pre-
ferred paper would have their free option. Ile hoped
that notes more difficult. of imitation, both with re-
spect to the £1 and the £5 notes,. would be invented.
No alteration relative to country circulation was
nude by the present Bill. He was happy to be able
to gate, that of the ten millions due by, Government
to the Bank, the greater part had been paid .by in-
stalments, and the whole debt would be extinguished
•on the sth of April. It bad-once been intended to
hare increased the amount of the sum to which silver
!night be made a legal tender ; but that idea had,
upon mature deliberation, been subsequently aban-
doned. The same steps taken with respect to the
Rink of England, were proposed to he adopted in the
case of the Bank of Ireland. The Right Honourable
Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring
in a Bill to accelerate Cash Payments on the part of
the Bank of England.
Mr. BARING said, that if a proper course had
been taken previously, he fully concurred in the
views of the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the acce-
leration of Cash Payments ; but he did not put much
faith in the graduated scale of Cash Payments, to
which some Gentlemen attached so much importance.
Ile apprehended that the plan of the Right Hon.
Gentleman would not lessen the forgery of small
votes. All were agreed that no greater evil could
befal. a country than a varying circulation; but the
subject was one of ouch importance, that it might
be proper to reconsider it. At one time he enter-
tained much more alarm on the subject of the re-
sumption of Cash Payments, than the result had•
warranted. But much distress prevailed all over the
country, and the tran,ition from war to, peace could
rot produce such effects at the close of six years.
No instance bad formerly occurred of a progressive
nine haring taken place in the case of money. In a
long and expensive war the country had been expend-
ing, not the income, but its capital. Should it take
place in a small town that-the landed proprietors ex-
pended their capital, it would produce a great tem-
porary affluence, to be followed by corresponding
distress. The country had not reached the top of
the hill, nor was it, as a matter of course, about to
return to its former state. It appeared to him that
the depreciation of money bad been under-rated, nor
had the variation in the currency been attended to.
The difference of value had not taken place in the
articles themselves, but in the measure of value that
had been applied to them—(Hear).--To estimate the
full extent of the depreciation was impossible. The
great plenty of the precious metals had led to the de-
preciation of them. That had been still further in-
creased by a paper currency, even when convertible
into gold and silver, and much more when that paper
WAS not so convertible.—The facility, too, of obtain-
ing credit, added to that depreciation; as when a
man could obtain credit at a country-bank for 1:200
or £3OO, it had the same effect as if it had been in
his possession. For the first year after the suspension
of Cash Payments, the difference in value between
paper and gold, had been little felt; as gold was
then abundant. The difference began to be percep-
tible in 1806, and continued to increase progressively.
As the price of all commodities bad risen, that was
a proof of the depreciation. From 1785 to 1798,
the price of wheat had been 551. or 565. and in the
following years to 1820, the average had been 85s.
or 90s. The old price had returned; but what in
1785 had been a remunerating price, was one that
low the farmer could not live upon, from the in-
creased expense of all arti,cles connected with the
management of the farm, caused by the overwhelm-
ing magnitude of the National Debt. In the return
to a metallic currency (said Mr.-Baring) great care
was to be taken not to go beyond the strict limits that
good faith absolutely required. Had there been no
Public Debt, he should have sanctioned a deprecia-
tion ; which, under the present circumstances, he could
not consent to sin with good faith to the public creditor.
The annuitant was then receiving a larger interest
than the debtor could afford to pay, and than the
Country could afford from the exertions of her indus-
try. The House had been told that the expense of
living depended on the value of gold and silver; but
habits had been introduced that it was extremely
bard to overcome. If he was to give a post-boy
half-a-crown where he had formerly given three
shillings, and should attempt to explain to him that
half-a-crown was now equal to three shillings for-
merly, he would probably be told he was a shabby
fellow. The same habits would still, for a long time,
continue under a different state of things. If no other
good should result from this discussion, it would at
least spew posterity that we were now floundering,
not from any natural necessity, but from our own
misdeeds. He was of opinion that the subject should
be sent up stairs to a Committee, to experience a
mature reconsideration. At the time of engage-
ments between individuals, the resumption of cash
payments had never come into :he account. The
value attached to the pound sierling was what it
bore in the commerce of common life. The average
value for ten preceding years would be a fair standard
to determine the future value of the circulating me-
dium. One remedy he would propose was, to make
perpetual payments in bullion instead of coin, as had
been recommended by an Hon. Friend (Mr. Ricardo).
Paper would then be the circulating medium, and
the Bank would be prevented from throwing out too
• much paper, from the liability to pay in bullion.
four or five millions in the Bank would be sufficient
for the machinery of the system. Under that system
the Bank would never be exposed to a run of a great
remount, to which it was liable under the present
.tystem. As the country could not do without
paper for daily use, a great run of paper could never
be made upon the Bank. By that means the expense
of coinage, and the wear and tear of the currency,
vrottld be saved to the country. That had for cen-
total been the practice of the Bank of Hamburgh.
~he only fin ruidable objection was the forgery of
• ank•notes. Bat that question had not yet had fair
PLY. The attempt bad been made to discover st

note that could not be imitated, instead of one that
was only' difficult of imitation. Nothing could
possibly be more clumsy than the present Bank-note..
At the Bank of France there had been only one for-
gery at the time of the occupation of Parisi)), the
Allies, when the file plates having been destroyed,
a provisional plate had been substituted, and then a
forgery had taken place. But in France, the lowest
Bank-nete.was.of the value of £l2O. Forgery was
also extremely rare in America. A gold token might
also be introduced into circulation. We should act
with perfect good faith by taking silver as a standard.
The former tender of silver was legal by tale, to the
amount of 1.:25, and by weight, to ispy amount. Up
to 1797, gold and silver were the legal tender of
the country ; and, at the, present day, the former
state of the tender might easily be restored. Silver
appeared to him to be a preferable standard to gold.
Under the system of bullion payments, there was no
inconvenience from the two standards, though there
might in the case of coin. The two metals together
would form a better standard than one of them
singly, and prevent the variation that one of them
singly would be liable to. As a practical question,
no difficulty would arise from the joint operation of
the two standards. His remedies were the intro-
duction of the Ricardo system, and the operation
of the two standards. He should move a Resolu-
tion, " That it was expedient to reconsider the Act
of the 59th of the late King, Chap. 49, to alleviate
the pressure that would result from the strict execu-
tion of that law." - •

Mr. RICARDO thought that the power cf re-
striction of Cash Payments was one of a very formi-
dable nature. By regulating the quantity, the Bank
Directors had the power of determining the value of
the circulating medium. His Honourable Friend
(Mr. Baring) had gone upon theories, though he pro-
fessed that he despised all theories: for in the year
1819 he said, before a Committee, that we should
have only one standard. When asked sr by he thought
so? he answered, because he understood that machi-
nery was going out to South America, which would
increase the production of silver; and therefore the
standard, in his opinion, ought to be gold. His Ho-
nourable Friend, who affected to be no theorist, con-
sidered the distresses of the Agriculturists, &c. of this
country, all arose from the alteration of the cur-
rency of the country. But what was the fact ? The
currency had not fallen more than 10 per cent ;
and even his standard—gold—hal fallen in value
since the peace. In comparing the_money of France
and other countries with that of England, as well as
the corn and other commodities, they would be
found all to have fallen in value as well as they had
in this country. He doubted whether the proposi-
tion of his Honourable Friend was correct, namely,
that we had expended a great part of our capital
during the war ; on the contrary, he believed that
there were such savings made in the country, as
more than counterbalanced the expenditure of capi-
tal during the war. His Honourable Friend had
asked why we should have a purer standard than the
rest of the world ? He (Mr. Ricardo) would answer
that question by asking another, viz. Why should
we not have a purer standard than other countries ?
It mattered much to us to have a pure standard, as
far as regarded other countries ; but in our own it
amounted to nothing how the money was depreciated.
The use of a proposed golden token he deprecated,
because, by a gold token he understood a species of
coin with a smaller quantity of gold in it than the rest
of the coin of the land. This, therefore, would be of no
use in foreign countries. The only species of gold
tokens which he could agree to must be those which
were nearly of the standard value of the sovereigns.
He thought it would be difficult for speculators and
jobbers to alter the value of money if we had two me-
thods of paying in money. He saw no facility of-
fered for forgery in the plan of the Right Honour- I
able Gentleman. At the same time, he believed that
the only security for preventing the forgery of Bank
notes, was by adopting a system of metallic currency,
such as existed previous to 1797. All the issues of
Bank paper lately had been made to ensure to the
Bank a quantity of bullion. He should like now to
see the laws, as they respected usury, repealed;
and, in his opinion, no time could be more favour-
able for it than the present. This he should like to
see done on the part of the Bank.
Mr. PEARSE thought it extraordinary, that now
they were about to return to Cash Payments, those
who had so particularly advocated that system should
now be the first to object, or rather to start objec-
tions to it. There was no other purchaser of gold
than the Bank of England; and was it fair, that the
Bank, which was the sufferer by the issue of Paper
Currency during the last few years, should not be al-
lowed now to pay in Cash?

Mr. PEEL considered that it was evident that this
was the time for a return to a metallic currency ; be-
cause, since the Bank was liable to be called on to
pay in gold, there had been a reduction in the issue
of Bank notes ; and a proof had been shewn that the
gold currency might now be adopted without any
chance of the gold coin being taken out of the coun-
try. He thought Mr. Ricario's plait was the best,
if a proper remedy could . be found for the preven-
tion of the forgery of Bank notes. He did not know
what the Committee on Bank Notes had lately done,
but he understood that the Bank of Ireland had a me-
thod, by very simple machinery, to prevent forge-
ries, by accurate, mathematical, globular figures.—
This plan, if effectual, would be ten times more
efficacious than that of the Bank of England.—
He could not agree to the adoption of a double stan-
dard of currency ; even if it were protected by the
ideal unity, on the abstract notion of a Bank-note.—
It was very natural for us, when in a state of dis-
tress, to throw out of sight the real causes of it. In
1814, the House came to a Resolution, tint in 1816
Cash Payments should be resumed ; the same took
place in 1818, and 1819 ; and now (after all the
distress under which the country laboured), he did
not regret the conclusion to which the Cash Payment
Committee came. When that Committee was going
through its labours, they found it impossible to re-
turn to a gold currency, which was at that time very
much depreciated in value. They found, that the
proposition of returning to a metallic standard would
have then deprived the Bank of the power of being
of service to the Public by loans of its capital. But
if foreign countries had begun to improve their
metallic currencies, we must have done the same, or
else we must have gone still further down the stream.

1 He thought that it would be imprudent to agree to the
Iproposition of the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Baring).
Mr. F. LEWIS thought there was no ground for
delaying any further the resumption of. Cash Pay-
ments; and he hoped they would see the necessity of
establishing a standard for the Currency: he wished,
however, that the present standard of the Currency
should be altered, because no one could tell what
might be the consequence of it. lie did not doubt 1
but a'note could be framed to prevent forgery in all
votes of•£s and upwards ; but not so with respect to
£1 notes, considering the frequency of their circula-
tion, and among the lower orders. No one had yet
suggested a system by which forgery might be de-
tected by the working classes. He sincerely wished
that a period should come for the resumption of Cash
Payments, and. that therefore the issue of £1 notes
should be withdrawn.

Mr. CRIPP.S did not believe that any evil had
arisen from the Bank issues. If there hid been an
evil, it arose from apprehension more than from
reality. The Bank had been as cautious in its issues
in proportion to its extent (and much more so) as
Country Banks. The Bank could not otherwise have
benefited the Public or individuals by discounting good
bills. He, however, agreed that now was the time
to make a ,tared in favour of Cash Payments.
this was not the time, he agreed that he did not know
when it would come. The Hon. Member observed,
he saw nothing to apprehend in resuming Cash Pay-
ments. The reduction of the circulating medium
would have no ill effect, if the price of commodities
fell in pro2ortion. If wheat was £2O a load, a man
must have £2O to pay for it ; but if the load of wheat
was only £lO, then £lO would go as far as £2O in
the other case. Under all the circumstances, he was
in favour of resuming Cash Payments.
Mr. ELLICE had doubts that adopting the pro-
position for paying in two metallic currencies would
be attended with very considerable difficulties. He
considered the present system as an evil, but he
thought the country were bound to abide by this evil
lather than fly to ills which they knew not of. He
was of opinion if ever there could be a time fitted
for resuming Cash Payments in full, it must be at a
time like the present, when we were at peace with
all the world. The estimate was, that £25,000,000
metallic currency would be sufficient for all purposes.
—The Bank were already in possession of half that
sum, and provision might be made for the other pait.
He trusted, under all the circumstances, the amend-
ment of his Hon. Friend would be withdrawn, and
the Chancellor of the Exchequer's motion agreed to
without a division.

Lord FOLKESTONE opposed the Bill going into
a Committee, and defended the proposition of Mr.
Baring, for an alteration in the standard.
Mr. HLISKISSON considered altering the stand-
ard, under any circumstances, would be unjust to the
public creditor and impolitic to the State.
Mr. BARING replied, and defended his proposi-
tion; a double standard was not new, it was what had
existed from the reign of Elizabeth down to 1797.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, the original question was agreed to with-
out a division.

A similar Resolution was agreed to with respect
to Ireland.

The House resumed, the Report was received, and
Bills were ordered accordingly.

GRA NIPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT.

Mr. STUART WORTLEY moved the third read•

ing of the Grampound Disfranchisement Bill.
Mr. SYKES opposed the Bill. The town of Leeds
contained about 80,000 persons, but by this Bill not
more than 1000 out of the 80,000 would have a right
to vote. He considered it would be better to leave
the right of election to the Borough of Grampound
than to send it to Leeds under such circumstances.—
He wished this Bill to be withdrawn, and a new Bill
brought in, giving the right to the County. of York
to send four 'Members, instead of two, as it did at
present. He concluded by moving, that the Bill be
read a third time this day six months.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL defended himself against
the charge to which he had been subjected, of having
abandoned the Bill. He first proposed to make Leeds
a scot-and-lot Borough ; but this being opposed, he
then proposed to limit the right of voting to persons
paying rents of £5 a-year. He afterwards proposed
to raise the sum to £lO ; but an Honourable Gentle.
man proposed, as an amendment, £2O. This took
away, in his mind, the popular character of the Bill,
and destroyed the object of it ; and under these cir-
cumstances he had given up the conduct of the Bill.
He still, however, considered it so valuable a measure,
that should the Hon. Member persist in dividing the
House, he would vote for the Bill.
Mr. MARTIN opposed it; and contended that the
majority of the Electors ofGrampound were innocent.
The Noble Lord who brought forward this Bill con-
sidered them as innocent, and proposed to give them
an equivalent somewhere.. That equivalent had not
been given to them, and therefore the Noble Lord
was bound to give the Bill a negative, and place
Grampound in the situation in which it originally
was, especially as no complaint had recently been
preferred against that Borough.
Mr. S. WOBTLEY defended the Bill. It was

said that the present plan neither gave satisfaction
to one party nor another ; he could assure Hon.
Members that persons of all parties expressed their
satisfaction to him, and above all things desired to
be freed from the nuisance of mob elections. He
hoped that, if the Bill passed in that House, there
would be no exercise of influence or interest to reject
it in another place.
Mr. SWANN maintained that Grampound would
not have been disfranchised if it had been under the
controul of aristocratic influence, and expressed him-
self opposed to the Bill.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said a few words in defence
of the conduct of Lord John Russell, in introducing
the Bill. The third reading of the Bill was then
carried without a division.

Upon the question that the Bill do pass,
Mr. TENNYSON moved as an Amendment, that a pas-
sage relating to the Members of the House, contained in the
Preamble of the Bill, should be expun6d, on the ground that it
was irregular to recogotut any specific number as constituting
the Parliatr.ent.

Mr. H. TWISS opposed the Amendment.•
After a short conversation, in which Lord J. Ressitt.t., Mr.
F. PALMER, Mr. R. SMITH, Mr. S. WORTLEY, and Mr. COURT..
NEy kilned, the Amendment was agreed to, and the Bill, as
amended, passed.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two o'Ckick.