Star.
London, England, 1820-06-09 00:00:00

without any other reason being assigned than that the
ether House of Parliimerit had not cdtne to the same
conclusion. If s% hat had been suggested yesterday
bad been adopted, this inconsistency would not have:
occurred. He could not, however, think that making
au order thafthe Committeeshould not sit till Tues:
tlay, was the way to preserve the
.dignity of the
House. The true dignity-would-he to persist in vihat

they had Jone yesterday, if they thought it right ;
or, if they found they had Veen inerror, to rescind the
order rntirety.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not allow the
speech of the Noble Lord to pass without observa-
tion. The proceeding of yesterday had nothing to
do with the delay now
.proposed. It was riot said
that their Lordships should wait for a contempora-

mous proceeding of the other House. but the pro-
position was made with the knowledge that the two
Houses were to proceed contemporaneously. The
llruse, however,' would act on its own view of the
He had not said that all such measures should
cont-2mporaneous in both Houses ; but he still main-
-,; 3e3 the opinion he had given, that in tbe present case,
h it tvas to be proceede.l in at all, the proper way
was by that and the other Muse of Parliament en-
tering on the measure at the-same time. 'rhe post--
Timing to Tuesday next Was. no abanclonnrent cf.
what had already been done, and might have been
postponed by any Noble Lord without reference to
what had occurred in anpther place. He made the
proposition without reference to any facts or circum-
stances which had come to his knowledge. lf, from
the nature of the case, any good result might arise
from the delay, an opportunity was afforded fbr that
advantage,_ but there was nothing in the proposition
of delay to.impeach the propriety of the proceeding
of yesterday.
The Earl of CARNARVON was for the palpone-
'rent of the ballot, and thought the adoption of the
Noble Baron's motion the course which common
sense dictated. What was the only ground for de-
I.zy ? It was obviously the possibility that some cir-
cumstances . might arise which would render it un-
tecessary to rorm any Committee on the case: The
Noble Earl's rather clumsy way of obtaining delay,
by postponing the sitting of the Committee to
Tuesday, was virtually the same as the motion
of the Noble Baron. He could not fix Monday
lbr the meeting of the.. Committee, because if an
arrangement should take place alter to-morrow, the
House would not have the opportunity of prevent.
ing the CoMmittee front proceeding to the investi.•
gation of the papers on the day on which they would
he ordered to sit. When no advantage was gained
by the Noble Earl's mode, he thought it would be
more becoming in their Lordships to adopt the con-
sistent course proposed by the Noble Baron, espe-
cially when they considered the delicate situation in
which they would be placed if the House of Com-
mons should, after all, decide to proceed by impeach-
ment—( Hear).
The Earl of DARNLEY. supported the motion of
the Noble Baron, by the ,adoption of which, he
thought their Lordships would best consult the dig-
nity of the House.

Lord ERSKINE concurred in the propriety of the
course proposed by the Earl of Liverpool. If there
had been anything done inconsistent with the laws'.
and constitution of Parliament, their Lordships might
be called upon to retrace their steps; but nothing of
that kind had been done, and he therefore saw no
ground for the objection of -his Noble Friends. He
sincerely hoped that the reports on which the pro-
ceeding had been instituted might prove unfounded;
but when the fidelity-of the Queen was-in,; question,
%that had been done was strictly proper, for in such
a case his Ifajesty had no . other course but to take
the opinion of Parliament. . His Majesty's message,
referring the docuitients.to the House, teas conceived
i. the most proper terms. It was forbearing and
tender, and perfectly consisieut with his Mayesty'S
Orafter. He certainly was one who had agreed
with his Noble* Friend's ifi' cobiletnning Secret Com 7
mittee„ he aline ed thai"the bnfavourable fm-
pression respecting them our the, public mind was a
serious objection; but he believed that on the present
occasion a Scent Committee was the most proper
mediiim for investitiatien, 11" the report of the Com-
mittee should he, that there were no grounds for pro.
ceeditig farther, then the -Queen would stand fully
accinitted-'in the opinion ofitii?" world; but, if the
inveitigatiiin was :made. asubject of public notoriety,
could any.mait venture to say-that a stain would•not
be left behind? -gut: it was • said that the House
might assume the chaiiiterbotfi bf a Grand and a
Petty Jury.: But was there any reason to suppose
that the inquiry could,liaif to impeachment ? Cer-
tainly not. He agreed. in the statement of the law
made yesterday by the. I,:eble Eirl. Indeed, that
there would be no impeachment was an opinion that
their Lordships might collect from the Message. Asl
it was sent to both Houses, it was to be presumed,
that no criminal procce.H.g was intended; and it
could not be supposed ..tat the House of Commons
would impeach the Queen,: without the consent of
Majesty. If that House were placed in a situa-
tion inconsistent with the
,law and Constitution by
any act of the other, their Lordships might refuse to
try. If the proceeding were to be confined to a Com-
mittee, lie should be of the same opinion with those
who were averse to that measure ; but as the Com-
mittee would be appointed to see what, if any, pro-
ceeding should be adopted, he approved of it. Whe-
ther the course that might be pursued at a future pe-
riod were judicial or parliamentary, whatever was
the shape which it Might assume, the trial must be
open and public. Everything which a subject had a
right to expect must be extended in the most effec-
tual manner to the Queen. It was not to be believed
that their Lordships, and the other House of Parlia-
ment, would not conduct a proceeding of so deli-''
tate a nature with all the honour, fairness, and pro-
priety, that was necessary. As long, however, as a
glimpse of hope could be entertained that this un-
happy business might be settled without inquiry, so
long, he thought, it would be much better that the
meeting of the Committee should be postponed. But
he ne% er could consider thaz their Lordships had done
wrong Stith respect to what had already taken place ;
on the contrary, he w=ould maintain that they had
acre,' perfectly right.
The Earl of ROSSINN would endeavour, if he
could, to bring back the attention of their Lordships
to the true state of the business, and he was not de-
sirous "to- notice that- pal trot: the speech:of hi visloble
Friend, whiclithicily appilired to him to be an ar-

gurnent growing out of the debate that passed yester-
day, farther than' to set Min right' with respect to
what had taken, place, because he conceived there
was not 'one word which he then heatd • uttered on
this subject, that conveyed any wish either to refuse
such proceedings as it'might be deemed fit to adept
at a proper time, and after due consideration, or to
deprive his Majesty, or any other individual, of any
relief or remedy that might be devised when the case
was investigated. •The argument, as he understood
it yesterday, was; to persuade their Lordships not
to place themselves, by any act, in a situation' that
must embarrass them, if a judicial proceeding were
.begun by the other House of Parliament. They
were called on, not to adopt any pioceeding that
might seem to imply the prejudging of a case, with
respect to which they were to be the ultimate judges;
and, therefore, it was argued that they ought not to
proceed with any examination, or to offer any opi-
nion, either of which was likely to have the effect
pointed out. Another argument was, that the pro-
ceedings of the two Houses of Parliament ought not,
in any degree, to be placed in competition. These
were the observations madc yesterday; and the pro-
ceeding then determined on could not now'be re-
tracted. The course of proceeding pointed out to-
day was by no means intended to undo what was
,done last night; and neither of his Noble Friend", in
the course of their observations, had said anything
that could lead to an, opinion that they wished their
Lordships to retrace their steps. The state in which
they stood was this—they had either heard circum-
stances, or they had learned that an opinion was en-
.tertained, that by a short delay that House might be
spared the painful necessity of entering into the dis-
cussion of this question, and the still more painful
necessity of a public examination of this most dis-
agreeable subject'. Under these circumstances, all
persons, he believed without exception, had agreed
that the delay of a few days would not be objection-
able. He apprehended that not the smallest objec-
tion could be offered to the practical result of such
an arrangement. The question, therefore, was merely
as to the mode of their own proceedings—whether
they would fix the ballot of the Committee for Mon-
day. or go on with it its-day, and adjourn the farther
proceedings until Monday ? The benefit that would
result from a short delay being admitted on all hands,
he could have no objection to the proposition of the
Noble Baron opposite (Lord Kenyon), and he would
therefore acquiesce in his motion. He apprehended,
that by suspending all the proceedings, in the hope—
he knew not with what probability of its being
realized—of an amicable arrangement taking place,
their Lordships would stand acquitted in the eyes of
the country. It would, he conceived, be better to
let the ballot stand over to the day mentioned by the
Noble Baron ; and then, having weighed the events
which might occur in the interim, they could decide
whether it might be necessary to proceed farther or
not. As a hope seemed to be entertained, that their
acting farther in this business might be rendered un-
necessary, he conceived that the suspending their.
proceedings, the moment it was admitted that such
was the acknowledged feeling of the House, would
be more respectful to all the parties, more respectful
towards the Public, and _more consistent with the
sense of their own dignity and honour, than to go on
with proceedings, which, although they had been be-
gun, they would not perhaps be able to carry to any
practical or useful end.
Lord ELLENBOROUdH saw little difference in
the two modes that were proposed. It was of little
matter with respect to the dignity and consistency
of 'their proceedings, whether they adjourned the
.appointment of the Committee, or,.having appointed
it, adjourned, its proceedings. He, however, wished
that the Committee should now he ballotted for, and
that it should be directed to meet on Saturday next.
He proposed this course, because he was convinced
that, if there was any chance of a successfuLatrauge-
ment, it could only be obtained by their Lordships
shewing an absolute determination to proceed in the
course agreed to yesterday,.if between this day and
that which he had mentioned, an amicable adjust-
ment was not effected. It was impossible that the
negotiation could be drawn out to any great length;
and he was sure that it would be shortened by the
means which he now pointed out. In his opinion a
satisfactory arrangement could only be obtained by
proceeding in that manner.
The Eail of DONOUGHMORE said, so many
allusions had been made to what had passed in
another place, that it almost looked as .if. themem-
bets had been transposed from'the one House to the
other. In the place to which he alluded, they thought
they had not sufficient reason to proceed, and they
adjourned the debate; but undoubtedly that was no
reason that should induce their Lordships to stay their
proceedings. This was not all, however ; the subject
was now treated as if their Lordships had also ad-
journed the debate of yesterday, for they had heard
no arguments from his Noble Friends this evening,
that had not been urged in the course of their speeches
last night. And why were they called on to pause?
Truly, because the debate in the other House of
Parliament had been adjourned. What reason had
been laid before them to alter the course of their pro-
ceeding, which had been so solemnly decided upon
last night—decided too by so great a majority, that
those who differed in opinion from that majority did
not think it necessary or proper to call fora division ?
What sort of argument was advanced in order to
induce them to depart from the proceeding originally
contemplated ? He had heard none, except that a
different course was taken in another place. It would
not be at all material to quarrel about a day, or two
days, or a week, in the decision of the present ques-
tion. Every Noble Lord, he was sure, wished it
should be placed on a proper, decent, and constitu-.
tional footing, agreeably to the - feelings of' both
the Illustrious Personages, and therefore in unison
with the sentiments of all those who could boast-
of 'any degree of delicate and honourable feeling.—
this ground he should have no objection to give
as much time to the consideration of their proceed-
ings as could with propriety be called for; but he
asked what individual argument, what reason, in the
smallest degree forcible, had been laid before their
Lordships to grant an extension of time on the pre-
sent occasion? They had nothing to do with what.
had occurred in the other House; an allusion to
what passed there, if used as an al-valeta, was most
untenable and most unparliamentary. He must sat,
that if they altered the proceeding which they had
last night agreed to, that -of balloting this day tor,

a Committee, they would do ae on no good Patti-
rnentary ground, but merely because they chose to
truckle and bow down to the other House of Parlia-
mem. Were they, because the othir House had
thought fit not to come to an immediate decision as
their Lordships had done, to say, " Oh! . now we
cannot venture to proceed, the other House of Par-,
liament having suspended their judgment, and post:
poned the debate, as they do on many other occa-
sions, to another day." It seemed, because the Mem-
bers of the other House had not made up their
minds, or for some other reason, had postponed the
debate, their Lordships were, therefore, to stop all
their proceedings, the most solemn, perhaps, on which
that House had been called on to decide, taking into
consideration the Illustrious Personages concerned,
for many ages past. They were called on to forget
their duty to themselves, to the importance of the
subject under discussion, and the high dignity of the,
individuals connected with it, by immediately adopt-
ing, not the course of procteding, not the opinion of
the other House of Parliament—for they had ex-
pressed none—hut me:ely adopting the postpone-
ment of that which they had previously agreed to
pet feet. They surely mould not be induced to do
so, because the simple fact had been stated that the
other House had not come to a decision on the sub-
ject, on which their Lordships had last night decided.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, as a reproach
had been cast against his Noble Friend near him
(Lord Holland) and himself, on account of what had
fallen from them, he felt himself called on to say
that the accusation .was not well founded. He, in
common with the rest of their Lordships, had a right,
he conceived, to give an opinion on every part of
these proceedings. Neither he nor his Noble Friend
had expressed any desire to thwart the proceedings
hltich had taken place in the House last night. It
would be recollected, that he had not proposed to
change that proceeding, which could not now in fact
be recalled. He had risen to express an opinion in
favour of the proposition of the Noble Baron oppo-
site, who suggested the propriety of suspending the
ballot till Monday. The Noble Earl (Liverpool)
wished also that tbs.: proceeding should be suspended,
but in another way. Nothing was, however, said by
any Noble Lord as to the propriety of altering the
course which had been marked out last night. What
he (Lord Lansdown) had said referred entirely to the
comparatise benefit that was likely to be derived
from one of the modes proposed by the Noble Lords
opposite, both of whom, he would not say on account
of what had occurred in another House last night,
lest he might incur the reproach of his Noble Friend
(Lord Donoughmore), seemed to be impressed at the
same moment with the necessity of suspending that
course of proceeding on which last night their Lord-
ships had determined to act. What he bad argued,
and after What he had heard his opinion was greatly
strengthened, since the same feeling was expressed
by the Noble Baron and the Noble Earl, and ap-
peared to' be participated in by the whale House,
was, that the proceeding should be suspended. It
was more consistent, he conceived, with true dignity
to express that feeling on the first occasion, instead
of making believe, by the appointment of a Commit-
tee, that they were determined to go on, although
circumstances might occur which might call on them
to undo all that had previously been done. There
was more dignity, he conceived, in taking the best
means that occurred *to them to prevent this Com-
Thittee, if possible, from sitting at all, than to hurry
on the proceeding without making such an effort.
He lamented that he differed from his Noble Friend,
but he wished him to understand distinctly what the
grounds of that difference were.
Their Lordships then divided. The numbers were:

Contents Present 82—Proxies 26 .............101
Non-contents Present 26—Proxies 5

...
The House, on the motion of the CHANCEL;
LOR of thb EXCHEQUER, resolved iti4f into a
Committee on the Irish Protecting Aiti. The
Of the Resolutibn proposed %Yes, to .coatintle the Dv.
ties to 1825, extinguishing every.five year after 25
pet cent. so that in twenty years the whole would be
extinguished. That gradual reduction would give
every reasonable time to the manufsicturers:
Mr. RICARDO said, that he was glad to see
that the time was to come when the country would
rouse to those right principles, from whith there
never should have been any deviaticin ; and he hoped'
•
that when the question (( Bounties, with respect to
Linen, was brought furward, a proposition would,be
adopted to limit the existence of those Bounties also
to a certain period, as. they were quite as objection-
able, upon principle, as the, Duties referred to in the
motion before the Commit*.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD concurred with the gene-
ral principles of the Honourable Gentlemen who had
just sat down, but he perceived that the Honiiiirable
Gentleman himself was not prepared to" apply those
principles to Ireland. The situation of Ireland was,
indeed, very peculiar, as far as related to the previ-
sions of the Union for the protection and encourage-
ment of the manufactures of that country-. Whether
the Duties under consideration were calculated td
afford valid protection to the Lis!) manufacture ot
not, was a question which he would not now dis=
cuss, but he maintained that it was not contemplated
by the articles of Union that those Duties should ter-
minate Ur twenty years, and that to withdraw thein
suddenly would be productive of serious inconve-
nience and injury in Ireland. There were other Dth
ties which it was the intention of his Right Honour-
able Friend to propose, and which were of a different
nature from that referred to in this motion. He meant
the Duties on Coals, Hops, and Salt ; and of the first
he could not approve—because he thought an article
so material to die Irish, as fuel, should not be sub-
ject to such a duty. Ile did not, however, intend to
oppose his Right lion. Friend's proposition, partied-
larly from a consideration of Isis liberality towards
Ireland, in the other Resolutions which he had sub.
mitted, but still he must express a wish that the duty
to which he alluded was reduced, although he admit=
ted that its ammo:: was not altogether very onerous.
Mr. J. FOSTER observed, that the Duties alluded
to were Protecting Duties for England as well as for
Ireland ; and expressed also a difference of opinion
from his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. V. Fitagerald) with
respect to the Duty upon Coals.
Mr. RICARDO considered those Duties as inju.
riot's to Ireland as well as to England, especially in
the intercourse between the two countries.

Mr. J. FonLit declared himself an advocate for
the total removal of all obstacles to the commercial

intercourse between England and Ireland—that the
Custom-houses • between the two countries should
cease to exist—that the interchange of their prOduc•
tions and manufactures should be entirely uninter.
rupted—that, in a word, the passage across the Chan.
nel should be as free and unembarrassed as that from
one town to another in either country. It was, in-
deed, most vexatious to think, that every man now
passing from the one country to the other was liable
to have, not only his portmanteau or trunks, but even
his person and the clothes he wore rigidly examined
by Custom-house Officers. Such a system Ought not
to be allowed to exist, inconsistent, as it obviously
was, with the connection of the two countries, and
the wisdom of Parliament.
• After a 'few further remarks from General HMIT,
the CHANCELLOR of the Exert Eutma, and Mr. V.
FITZGERALD, the Motions were agreed to, and thb
Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.