Star.
London, England, 1817-02-28 00:00:00

ACT.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved. thattheSpeaker leave the Chair.

Mr. GRENFELL did not wish to take up the
time of the House, but was desirous of saying, that
after having given this question his best attention and
consideration, his present situation was not unmixed
with pain and difficulty, as he found himself com-
pelled to differ from many of those friends with whom
be had long cordially acted, and with whom he hoped
still to be connected —(llear, hear, hear.) His con.
viction might be erroneous; but he would say, it was
honest, sincere, and conscientious. He felt it his duty,
therefore, to support the Bill, as tending to secure the
liberties and promote the interests of the country.
Mr. CURWEN said, that notwithstanding the
strong opinion declared by the House last night, it
was impossible for him to forget what were the strong
feelings of those who opposed a similar measure above
20 years ago. Most of the great characters of that
day were now removed for ever from the stage. But
the impressions of that time remained in him unim-
paired ; and he felt it his duty, though his opposition
was hopeless, to mark his opinion to the House and
the country. There was a very great difference be-
tween the state of the country now and its state at
a former period, when parties ran so high, when the
country was under peculiar difficulties, and when per-
nicious opinions were said to be spreading so widely.
He had been closely engaged in all the oppositions to
the measure at that time,andhe saw no reason to regret
it. The results of the policy then pursued justified in
his mind those who were in the opposition. Could it be
forgotten by any body, that an attempt was made in
those days, which, if successful, would have left us
neither liberty nor security ?—he meant the attempt
at constructive treason. He remembered well the
virtue of the Judge, and the manliness and inte-
grity of the Juries : all the circumstances justified the
objections he had entertained to intrusting such a
power as this into the hands of Ministers. Never in
any serious-discussion in that House had he-witnessed
such a total deficiency of argument in the defence of
any measure, as was evinced last night by the advo-
cates of the suspension. He particularly alluded to
the speech of the learned Lord Advocate of Scot-
land, who, by his own statement, bad clearly shewn,
that by means of the laws as they stood, be had been
enabled to arrest a number of conspirators or ring-
leaders of the diiaffected. If this proceeding was so
easily effected. what could Ministers want with this
bill of suspension ? This was conclusive, that it
could not be wanted for any useful purpose, and that
the existing laws rendered it needless. He thought
that the law officers of the Crown had shewn no
grounds to entitle Government to the aid of additio-
' nal laws, since in England they had not yet tried the
efficiency of those which exist. He, for one, would
not agree to the suspension. He pointedly referred
to the year 1794, and the proceedings then adopted ;
the effects of which were to place every man who
dared to oppose the plans of Ministers in the dange-
rous situation of a person suspected of hostility to the
Government and constitution of the country—(Hear.l
He particularly well remembered one instance of a
hundred Gentlemen of respectability, in the North
of England, who met together on the 4th of No-
vember to celebrate the Revolution; a spy of Mr. I
Reeves's was sent down there, and every word that
was uttered by the Gentlemen present, from affection
to the Revolution which placed the present Royal
Family upon the throne, was noticed. Wbat then
happened ? Why, that the spy reported to his em•
ploy,: that there was a great deal of disaffection and
treasult—(Hear).—Mr. Reeves wrote to an officer
who bad been present; and whose proper and manly
reply to Mr. Reeves was, that -if any thing disloyal
or disaffected had occurred, he should nut have re-
quired Mr. Reeves's inquiries or advice to know what
he ought to do. Supposing a letter of this descrip.
tion put into the green bag, totally contrary to truth ;
full of misrepresentations and calumnies, for expres-
sions used in warm affection for that great event
which alone gave to the reigning family their title to
the throne of these realms I—a title of which he
hoped and trusted they would always remember the
true foundation; but of which, it they abandoned
the principles, he could hope for them only the
fate of those whom they succeeded I—(Hear)---
He remembered very well that for some time Mr.
Pkt would not yield to the goadings of Mr. Burke;
but was inclined to think the factious contemptible;
but then came the great object of putting down all
hopes of reform in the representation ; and this, more
than any other object, governed the measures of the
day. Now a similar measure was called for to an-
swer a similar object, which, it was thought, would
by this means be defeated; but he believed all honest
men, from one end of the country to the other, wished
for reform ; and they- could not expect public sec u-
rity, or public peace, without a change in the repre-
sentation of that House—(Hear). He would say,
in the words of Mr. Pitt himself, that without it they
could neither expect redress for the past, nor security
for the future—(Hear). Could not any man read
the preamble of that bill, which declared that the
sale of seats in that House was notorious, and as Mr.

Speaker had insill
and
64°i)*
expro,trnheigtesteixrhr manyelnis thought
t:o ur.s
it himself,;:;
notorious
friendsthen °otiowuse
preambleren displeased°bnu 'td, afoYr?
hisa tHosewu cnkhnpesatwir
spewed what was wanted, and laid a foredoom'
for further proceedings better times. The bill
enacted nothing to defeat the great object—V[l4r).
Was not the country right, then, with the authorities
they had favour of their opinions, to say
did exist an influence within those walls which cnitld
not unite the House and the People together as they
ought to le ? It was impossible to have that link:,
in such circumstances. He remembered, on a farmer
occasion, having mentioned that £20,000 had beer)
laid out to purchase seats in that House the 3
was told he was mistaken in that instance in the sum,.
for the amount was only £18,500. He admitted
the correction, if that was any gratification to
parties, and was only sorry that so much money is t.'.
been laid out for such a purpose, for it was far rai
much. It must appear a mockery to say, that
could have gone on so many years in such an ,es
mous and wasteful expenditure of the public nom y,
had there been a Reform in the Representstlot, io
Portia merit—(Hear, doer)—What was to be expected
from a Parlament under undue influence? Mire
put an eto4 to the expensive American war ? Witt it
merely the wisdom, patriotism, and virtue of the
House ? No, it was the sense of the people. WhA:
was it that prevented a troublesome and r Jiculoas
war with Russia ? Was it the Parliament rneriis
No; it was the strong expression of the peopte's
feelings. Whit was it then that could alone erph.„!e
corruption, and do away Places and Pensions given,
not even for set vices, but fur worse than no service;
at all ? Every grant made tr a public service 11.
',considered as sacred as private property. Put, Wile
he readily admitted that, lie did not c mct:ee
the House was prevented from ihikutg 'if tkie
which were made to reward services crite:•tly
Aims to the true interests of the coantry—(ifear.)—
As to the acts of bad men in the country. these Intl
were not the allies of Reform—they were t'se promo.
ters of the system of those who opposed all Itelottn.
The first suspension of the Habeas Corpus A(t :cos
to get Mr. Pitt out of the difficulties that attended
him in the question of reform. So now the object
was, to make use of circumstances to avoid rectal,
and sanction the establishment of an arniy too great
for the country to hold or to pay ; and to blind the
nation as to its real state. These plots and eloens
were the only means by which to get the enormous
expenses of the country tolerated. If Ministers were
really aware of the true situation of the country, he
thought we should have examined carefully it.to the
state of our colonies, and, by making every possible
retrenchment, have lopped off our eel:erne: by n
Whenever they came fairly to grapple wilt
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it wrnti be seen,
that we shall still have 20 millions of expenditure, is
various ways, above our resources. Wert net thee
things enough to draw the attention of the navos
This Bill was said to be owing to the discontent of
the people. No; the people had been exemplau,
patient, and forbearing. The House might see
how the legal officers in many places attempted to
prevent the people from holding legal alectiegs.—.
He agreed in what fell from the Honourable Baronet'
(Sir F. Burdett), that dangers arose in the coontry
from the country gentlemen sleeping on their poste,
from not doing their duty sufficiently to the le op!e,
and leaving matters of importance to interior !Inst.,'
hoar).—The influence of the Crown ';: +stg
be met with wherever they turned, and in ah.inst.
every instance; and under the burdens and dill:rill
ties of the country it had increased tenfold--(11::1;,
hear).—lt extinguished high spirit, and destroyed re-
`dependence of character both 'Within that House ar.!
out of it—(Hear, hear.)—That vast influence must
be cut down, or we could scarcely hope to be relhaaei
and revived. He had particularly listened to tl:
Solicitor-General iast night, of whose character,
lents, and knowledge, no one had a :tight.: opin,tu
than himself. If any /scaly could have wad,: uut a
good argument fur the suspension, he exvected it
from that Learned Gentleman ; but lie was (Wite de•
ficient in producing conviction on his mind. To sa/
that there was difficulty in procuring convictions
cording to law, was no argument to prove the :tt,
cessity of suspending the laws. He should vainly
hope to stop this measure ; but he would 5.1 y, that it
dangers did exist, it was well calculated to inete.tv•
distrust and to banish confidence in the peepfe—
(llear,hear.)—lt might, he admitted, he necessary.
alter all, to the Ministers, if they were to proceed
upon their system, if they were to make their stand,
as it bad been called, and to refuse to knock off one •
other useless place, after dismissing so many brayt
men who had fought our battles all over the work..
No doubt the dismissal of many of these brave mes
was painful to Ministers themselves ; but what might
these men say ? They might say, why not keep two
or 300 of them, rather than insist in keeping tee.
useless Lords of the Admiralty, whose busine..s could
be transacted by automatons ?—(ldear.) The per,
pie were not to be blamed for withdrawing their conf-
deuce from Parliament: he should have dove the
same himself. He felt it his duty to make these of
setvations, though at first he did not intend to.detsts
mtheinHdeoduosef mtiloereactAtiavne
paafwrethemtooomkesonts—a hionrtnfiseeritio
snail, he immediately said he had not forgottetp:
He recollected, that when Lord Sidmouth came Lao
power, be entertained hopes that the Coastlines
would be restored, and the previous system alms.
doned. On that account he certainly regretted. (11'
Gentlemen for whom he had the highest respect.
his side of the House, had joined with Mr. Pat tt
displace the Noble Lord's administratioz- lie
delayed the House longer than he ought, but be sticilte
always, uninfluenced by party, speak out his nurs!
No man was ever more sincerely attached te ; •
stitution than he from this attach:nen! he
both the suspension of it, proposed by
the changes that certain reformers, who sti,Tol":
the doctrines of universal suffrage and ennui!: Lt.'''
Lions, were desirous of making. He opposed the *it•
ter, nor because he suspected their honesty,. but IN.
cause he dcubted their wisdom. He repro'nted tht
demand of power advanced by Ministers to pteaette
the public tranquillity against their designs, Iwo"
he was convinced that such measures were not tweet'
sary. He was convinced that the results would
not to effect public security, but to produce alsrn.:
not to deter Jacobins, it they ezisted, Iron) st,e';',
Touring to accomplish their designs, but to