Star.
London, England, 1820-08-29 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS.

ELEVENTH DAY'S PROCEEDINGS.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at within
ten minutes to ten.

Prayers having been read by the Bishop of WIN-
CHESTER, the names were read over, and the follow-
ing Peers were excused on account of ill health, and
for other causes, viz. Lord ENNISKILLEN, Lord
AYLESBURY, Marquis Of BUCKINGHAM, and Lord
RIVERS.—At a quarter past ten,
Lord LIVERPOOL rose and stated, that at the
same time that he had agreed in the motion for
hearing her Majesty's Counsel upon the subject of
cross-examination of witnesses, he had not pledged
himself to adopt the course suggested by them
upon this very important subject—( Hear).—Upon
the most mature consideration of the subject, he
had formed an opinion that the course advised by
those in whose views he generally concurred, was that
which would be of most substantial benefit to the
cause of the Queen, as well as attended with less in-
conveniencies to the House, and less danger to esta-
blished authorities. Iler Majesty's Counsel bad
thought differently, and, under the impression that
a cross-examination at a future period would not
answer the purposes of benefiting their Client ex-
cept an introductory examination as to particular
points were permitted, they had applied to their
Lordships for the indulgence. It was true, that
in an earlier stage of those proceedings, her Ma-
jesty's Counsel had received an intimation that
the course they now wished to see the House
proceed in, should be adopted. A misunderstanding
had certainly taken place upon this subject, but the
Learned Counsel having concluded that a double
cross-examination was to be substituted in the place
of that course, which could not, consistently with the
principles of the Constitution, be followed, it would,
in his view, be a hardship to withdraw an advantage
which, though not promised, was certainly expected.
Under these circumstances, the House, he trusted,
would not hesitate to continue to the Counsel the op-
tion, either to cross-examine in full at the present
moment, or to proceed in the usual course, by a pre
sent cross-examination upon particular points, and a
reservation for the subsequent proceedings. He could
not, he confessed, see much difference between the
course suggested by the Queen's Counsel, and what
must necessarily arise in the event of a special case
arising in the process of the investigation. The Noble
Lord concluded, amidst loud cries of " Hear, hear!"
by moving that Counsel should be called in, and in-
formed that they were at liberty to proceed in the
usual manner with the cross-examination. This mo-
tion he meant to take place of the motion of yester-
day,
which had not yet been decided upon, and which
he purposed to withdraw.
Lord LAUDERDALE rose and said, he would
not consent to the proposal to withdraw the former

motion.
Lord GREY wished to know upon what ground his
Noble Friend (Lord Lauderdale) wished to resist the
proposition of the Noble Lord (Liverpool) ?
Lord LIVERPOOL said, that as the Noble Lord
objected to the course he had proposed to adopt, he
should move what would appear perhaps less excep-
tionable. He should submit the Motion, as an Amend•'
ment to that of yesterday, which was—
.. That the Counsel should be called in, and that they should
be informed of the rule proposed by their Lordships to regulate
the future cross-examination of witnesses, in lieu of that laid
down on Saturday; namely, that such cross-exansination should,
as usual, be gone into immediately after the examination in chief,
with a full claim, however, to apply for the permission of the
House to have any witness called back again for cross-examina-
tion, if any new facts or circumstances respecting such witnesses
should come to their knowledge."
Lord LAUDERDALE said, he had thought it
sore to the convenience of the House that he should
postpone his reasons for objecting to the proposition
to withdraw his motion ; but, as he had been called
upon, he felt it to be his duty to state those objections.
Lord ERSKINE was happy to see Ministers come
forward to amend their own ill-judged speculations
—(A laugh).—He, at the same time, thought it
most extraordinary to see the President of the Coun-
cil correcting the errors of the First Lord of the
Treasury !---(A laugh, and cries of Hear, hear).
Lord HARROWBY had arisen at this moment to
propose the Amendment, an expression of surprise
having been uttered at the idea of a Minister having
risen to move an amendment to his own proposition.
Loid HARROWBY then moved the Amendment.
Lord LAUDERDALE said it was incumbent
upon the Noble Mover of the Amendment to explain
the nature and bearing of his amendment. Diffi-
culties presented themselves which the amendment
was rather calculated, in his opinion, to increase
than to diminish, and before the House adopted any

new course. they ought to be fully informed Qi
benefits likely to arise from it.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose to complain of the
tone and temper of. the speech made by the Noble
Earl who had just sat down, not as directed against
himself individually, but to the House generally.—
So far from disregarding the arguments of Counsel,
which the Noble Lord seemed to think derogatory to
the dignity of the llouse, he contended that it was
the conscientious duty of their Lordships to attend to
the arguments of Counsel, to hold themselves opc
to conviction, and not pertinaciously to adhere to
previous opinions, when the relinquishment of them
was essential to the ends of justice. In the suggestic a
he made on Saturday, he did not wish to bind the
Noble Lord, nor did he conceive himself bound by
them ; but that when the Counsel on both sidts
had been heard, then their Lordships should decide,
He had never urged that the mode of proceeding
offered yesterday to the Counsel for the Queen, and
that which he now thought it right to concede, were
the same, but he thought that her Majesty would
derive the same advantages from either. What was
offered yesterday went further than is allowed in the
Courts of Law ; but the ground on which he now
acceded to the wish of the Counsel was, that the in-
dulgence having already been granted, perhaps im-
properly, it ought not now to be withheld, and that
expectations had been held out, perhaps improperly
also, yet they ought not now to be disappointed. 11-e
Noble Lord concluded by declaring that he felt, ard
would continue to feel during the whole of these pro-
ceedings, that their Lordships ought to listen to
Counsel, and whatever pre-conceived opinions they
might have formed, that they should never hesita,,
to yield those opinions when it is shewn that th, f
ought no longer to be entertained.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE explained. lie sa:d
he was as much open to the arguments of Counse!,
and as anxious to obtain justice, as any man. Ile
did not differ from the Noble Lord (Liverpool) for
changing his opinion ; but that he had abandont.,l
the very arguments he had formerly adopted.

Lord ERSKINE wished the amended Motion to
be read, as it appeared to be misunderstood by some
of their Lordships.
TheLORD CHANCELLOR read the amendment.

Lord ERSKINE resumed.—lf, when the Counsel
were called in, and they declared themselves satisfied
with the mode of proceedings now to be offered to
them, he would be silent for ever ; but if they said
that they were not satisfied, then he (Lord Erskine'„
would move an adjournment of the House. lle
wished that Counsel should be called in, and it should
be ascertained from them what they required of
their Lordships. The House did not seem to be
fully aware of what the Counsel asked. They
asked that evidence should not go forth to poison
the public mind without the best antidote they
could give at the same time—that they should
proceed as far in the crow-examination as they were
enabled by their limited knowledge of the witnes',
and that the bane and antido:e should go together.
GOD forbid that this House should refuse a request
so just and so moderate. The Noble Lord wished
distinctly to know if their Lordships meant that the
Counsel for the Queen should, after the adjournment,
call the witnesses again and crass-examine them.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no objection that
the Counsel for the defence should cross-examine
witnesses as far as they could, and that they should
possess the right of calling them again for a second,
or a renewed cross-examination ; but on this condi-
tion, that his Majesty's Attorney and Solicitor-Gene-
ral should not be called on to close their case until
the cross-examination was concluded.

Lord ERSKINE was glad that their Lordships
were now doing like Gil Blas—going back, when
they could do no better
Lord REDESDALE said a few words, which we
understood to be in favour of the motion of yester-
day, for Counsel not to possess the privilege of a se-
cond cross-examination, unless on special case stated,
and with leave of the House.
The Earl of DONOUG HMORE felthimself bound
to state, that the option given to the Counsel for the
Queen was, to take the whole cross-examination at
the time, or defer the whole to their defence. There
were now three questions before the House—l st, The
examination of the Lords-2d, The postponement
of the Cross-examination—and 3d, The time of sun'•
ming up. He would take the last first, as it scarcely
required a word, since it was impossible to close
the case until the evidence was finished on both side!.
As to the examination by their Lordships, from which
much good had already arisen, he contended there
was nothing in the nature of these proceedings, no-
thing in law, to prevent it. Their Lordships were
the Judges in this case; and was it ever known that
a Judge had not a right to ask a question of a wit-
ness at any period of the case? He wished the House
to come to a clear understanding, that their Lord-
shirr should ask any questions of a witness, after the
Counsel for the Queen had cross-examined as much
as they wished at the time. He understood, alsr,
that Counsel were to have the same privilege which
was given to them in the beginning, in lieu of the
list of witnesses, 'which had been refused.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH was of opinion, that if
the course proposed was pursued—if the Counsel fcr
her Majesty had it in their option to proceed or not
with their cross-examination of witnesses--they would

have it in their power to prevent the case being ever'
brought to a conclusion: the proceedings would, in
fact, be interminable. The ends of substantial jus-
tice would be disappointed, and to none would the
injury be more grievous than to her Majesty.—
It had been described as a hardship, that the evi-
dence for the prosecution should go forth to the
world, and rankle in the public mind for months
before her Majesty could have an opportunity of re-
futing it by counter-evidence ; but, by making the
examination proceed immediately after the examina-
tion in chief, that hardship would be much diminished.
The mode which her Majesty's Counsel contended
for as being favourable to her interests, was quite
the reverse ; it would be letting the whole evidence
for the prosecution go forth to the world, and re-
main without the least contradiction for months.
His Lordship entreated their Lordships to be cau-
tious how they established a rule in this case, which,
followed as a precedent in other cases, would, in his
opinion, be totally inconsistent with substantial jus-
tice and with the discovery of truth.
Earl BATHURST said a few words in explana-
tion of the motion. He could see nothing fairer than
that her Majesty's Counsel should be allowed to pro-
ceed to such extent as they thought proper with
their cross-examination, with liberty to call the wit-
nesses back a second time, should there be occasion
for it. His Lordship did not see how the House
could do otherwise.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH begged to ask one ques-
tion—What degree of cross-examination was to be
held as sufficient to enable their Lordships to proceed
midi their examination?

Lord LIVERPOOL said, that when the cross-
examination went simply to the credit of the witness,
it was impossible to preclude the Counsel for the Bill
from putting additional questions, and still less to
preclude their Lordships from proceeding to their
examination.

The LORD CHANCELLOR regretted, that he
could not, by any means, give his assent to the
coarse of proceeding which their Lordships seemed
about to adopt. If, on maturer reflection, he had
seen any cause to alter the opinion which he pro-
nounced yesterday, he would have considered it a
sacred duty to confess the change that had taken
place in his mind, but no degree of reflection could
ever enable him to see the possibility of the ends of
substantial justice being obtained, should the House
agree to the proposition now before them. His
Lordship had never meant that Counsel should be
in the least controuled in their cross. examination
of witnesses—he never could mean anything so
abhorrent to every idea of justice. They should be
allowed to go as far as they pleased with their cross-
examination ; but that should be immediately after
t:ie examination in chief. They should also undoubt-
edly have the power of calling back witnesses a se- ,
cond time ; but that was a power which ought
to be under a wholesome and sound controul.—
It was a power which should not be confined merely
to cases where new facts and circumstances coming
to the knowledge of her Majesty's Counsel, made a
second examination of a witness necessary. Such
a limitation would be infinitely too strict. A
Counsel might omit to ask questions by mistake, and
that would be a good reason for desiring that a wit-
ness should be called up a second time, to have the
omitted questions put. Again, after a witness had
been examined in chief, there might not immedi-
ately appear to the Counsel for the defendant cause
to enter upon any cross-examination ; but circum-
stances might come out in the subsequent examination
of other witnesses, which would render that cross-
examination of the byegone witness necessary, which
was not at all necessary before. These cases shewed
how indispensable it was that the Hmise should have
a controul over the pbwer of calling back witnesses
a second time. It was a controul which every Court
possessed; and were their Lordships not to be en-
trusted with the same sound legal discretion which
was confided to every other tribunal? If ever there
was a case where it was so evidently due to justice,
a:,LI to the party accused, that some satisfactory ter-
mination to the business should be, obviously it was
the present ; but, after tormenting his mind to the
utmost with the subject, he could not see his way to
the end of the difficulties which must infallibly arise,
should the course of proceeding proposed be agreed to.
If their Lordships proceeded with their examination
cf witnesses before the Counsel for the parties had
concluded theirs, the examination by their Lord-
-I,ips would in every instance raise a new case on
which Counsel might again go through the whole
process of examination and cross-examination; and
. yen after that the business would not be over, for
Lordships would of course be entitled to ex-
amine tke witnesses a second time. His Lordship
was sorry that he was compelled to differ with
r... 1 those whom he most respected, but he could
I.:t possibly give the sanction of his judicial
character to the mode of proceeding which they now
proposed to ..,',opt, convinced, as he was most con-
scientiously, that it would not be consistent with the
Inv:rests of justice--(I/ear, hear).—lf their Lordships
could not entrust themselves with the same sound dis-
cretion which other Courts possessed, it would be
better that they shut up their House at once--(Hear).
Should their Lordships adopt the proposed rule, be
would feel it his duty to give them every aid in his
rower in carrying it into effect ; but he felt it equally
r euty now to state, that he did not see his way

phrough the diffieulties with which that course of
proceeding could not fail to embarrass them—( Hear).
Whether any misapprehension upon the part of the
Queen's Counsel had or had not arisen, it would be
advisable in their Lordships to let them proceed in
the course which they had contended for. It would
be m atter of greater satisfaction to the Public, to the
House, and to her Majesty's Advisers, as the House
had evidently encouraged the expectation of the
Queen's Counsel, to allow them to proceed, and prove
that theft' Lordships were determined not to defeat
that expectation so strongly excited. He was not
ashamed to acknowledge that he had been convinced
by Counsels' arguments, of the necessity of concurring
in this arrangement ; and, that upon balancing the
inconveniencies resulting from all the modes devised
for avoiding difficulties, that appeared to him as un-
exceptionable as any. He was aware that from the
distance of place, and the length of time to which
their Lordships must look, in considering this ques-
tion, there appeared to be a prospect of a very con-
siderable delay ; but the refusal of facilities such as
the Queen's Counsel sought, would far from tend to
prevent the disadvantages arising from every view to be
taken. He was far from wishing to tie down the House
of Lords to the strict observance of the rules of the
Courts below, but he believed that as close an ad-
herence to those rules, would be attended with the
advantage of preventing the introduction of dange-
rous precedents. In this case, he apprehended their
Lordships might, without any probable chance of
injury to the character of their proceedings, deviate
from the established rules of evidence—(Hear, hear).
The objection was great or small in proportion to
the probability of any case of a similar kind arising
in future. Now the annals of history could not
furnish the House with anything like a precise
precedent, and the improbability of any similar
case was fairly to be inferred from the fact that
her Majesty's case was a solitary one. Upon those con- '
siderations he was of opinion at this moment (and
he again declared, that he was not ashamed to ac- ,
knowledge the change that had taken place in his
opinions), that the House should proceed to the sa-
tisfactory conclusion, that the Queen's Counsel should
be allowed to exercise their discretion as to the cross-
examination of witnesses.
The House left debating.

The Paris Papers of Friday, which have arrived,
are principally filled with extracts from the London
Papers, respecting the Trial of the QUEEN. A letter
from Naples, of the 4th, says, that the Deputation
from Sicily acknowledged, as a preliminary, the au-
thority of the KING on the Island ; but nothing is
said respecting the Constitution.
The Conatitutionnel contains the official Report of
the Spanish Officer commanding on the Portuguese
frontier, relative to the defeat and suppression of the
counter-revolutionary movement which had been so
much exaggerated by the enemies of Spanish free-
dom.—The King of WURTEMBILRO arrived on the
17th at Stutgard, very unexpectedly, from Italy, and
had an immediate conference with his Ministers.—
French Five per Cents. 78 fr.. c.
They arrested on Wednesday several subalterns,
implicated in the conspiracy, among whom was a
young serjeant in the Legion of the North, who wept
bitterly while accusing his Lieutenant of having
dragged him into this unfortunate plot.
A Major of the Royal Guard has also been ar-
rested; and eighteen officers, subalterns, and soldiers,
recently taken into custody, were on Wednesday con-
veyed to the prison of La Force. Some are detained
as prisoners, others as witnesses ; and four out of the
number were released the same night. The number
of accused and witnesses, interrogated on Wednesday
morning, was considerable. Almost all of them wore
military decorations, either of the Royal Guard, or
of the Legion of La Meurthe.

The Flanders Mail brings nothing new. Witnesses
from Italy, who ate to be examined on the Trial of
the QUEEN, continue to pass through Brussels, on
their way to England.

The latest accounts from England at Ceylon are
of the 17th November last, by the ship Margaret,
free trader, Captain ALLAN, arrived at Trincomalee.
The pearl fishery was expected to commence this
year, at Ceylon, in the month of April.
We have great satisfaction in announcing, that
throughout Yorkshire and Lancashire the circum-
stances of the working people are somewhat improved.
The wages are still very low ; but many have em-
ployment who could not obtain work a few months
ago. The She fi'eld Independent, of Saturday, states,
that a very favourable change has taken place in the
payments to casual paupers in that township : in the
week ending Bth of April, the number on the books
was 1480, and the payments were £372 14s. 6d.;
last week the number was reduced to 1,022, and the
payments to £316 Is. 4d. The regular paupers in
the rust-mentioned week were 322 ; last week they
were 272.

A survey has been had of Jedburgh Abbey, which
was fast falling into ruin ; and it has been resolved
to petition the Barons of the Exchequer for a sum
equal to its repair. The surveyor, Mr. ELLIOT, ar-
chitect, considers the Abbey to be the most perfect
and beautiful example of the Saxon and early Gothic
architecture in Scotland. _

The Peers, on their return horn the House of Lords
yesterday, were, as usual, cheered or hooted, accord-
ing to the estimation in which their principles are
held by the people.
The customary honour due to Royalty was paid to
her MAJESTY by the Horse and Foot Guards, on duty
in Palace-yard, on her arrival at and departure from
the House.

' THE VUNDS.

STOCK EXCgANGE, AUGTIST2t.

This is settling day for the Account, and from the
great fluctuations that have taken place, the dif-
ferences to pay are very heavy ; the consequence has
been, an unusually large assembly early this morning,
and according to the way each person's account has
gone, his countenance is regulated. Long faces are
no novelty in the Alley, but this morning seems to
have imported a greater number than usual ; but,
as yet (twelve o'clock) no defaulter has been declared.
Consols opened at 67%14 for Money, and for next time,
681/8. An immense quantity of Stock has been carried
, over to the next Account ; and as the continuation is
not above five per cent. a great quantity more is
expected. The state of the Market is at present
very gloomy, and the speculators in favour of eh
advance have been straining every nerve to raise the
Funds; India Bonds, Exchequer Bills, and every
kind of security, have been pledged to raise money ;
but, from the present uncertain state of domestic af-
fairs, it has been rendered ineffectual ; there is a want
of confidence among monied men in the country,
which bears down all artificial endeavours to raise
the price. At one o'clock the prices were—

Bank Stock 2906 221 2206-3 per Cent. Reduced 681 et

3 per Cent. Cons. 674 i i--3i per Cent. 76i

4 per Cent. 861 87-5 per Cent. Navy 103 1021 103*

Long Anns. la 1-16—India Stock 2151
India Bonds 511 s. 225. pre.—Exchequer Bills Ss. ss. pre.

Consols for October 68i *