Star.
London, England, 1820-07-07 00:00:00

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regard to her- , in case the proceeding went fOrkvard.
He was also instructed to speak to the mode of pro-
ceeding ; and, touching the time,. whether' a stated
period was fixed upon, or if it was intended to delay
the further proceeding without specifying any parti-
cular time. These matters he was .to. go into either
entirely or partially, as there was a possibility. that
circumstances might occur which would make a
further delay requisite. He was also to speak to
certain.matters that might be well calculated 'to pro-
duce an immediate effect in regard .to the further
proceedings of their Lordships. He was authorised
to state that this was the only stage of the business
that now could allow her Majesty to make the state-
ments to which he alluded with any effect. And
that she felt it a matter of serious detriment, that
her Petition should have been rejected yesterday, and
that she was not allowed to be heard before the Bill
was read a first time. Last of all, her Majesty had
to complain of a certain Report, which, was stated
to have been laid on the table of that House, but of
which, as a Parliamentary document, of course, her'
Majesty could know nothing. However, it was not
to be concealed that that Report had gone abroad,
and had been made known to the Public in every
shape and form of announcement. Its substance
had been stated in print and spoken of, and every
person, man, woman, and child, could repeat it to
the letter. It had appeared in all the newspapers;
it formed the subject of all conversation ; it was a
topic of universal interest; but it might, for aught
he knew, be a fabrication—a gross and scandalous
libel- on their Lordships' Committee. But as the
charges which that Report was said to convey had
been so generally and consistently circulated, and as
their Lordships had not committed or visited With
any marks of their displeasure, any of the persons
who had dared to prostitute their pens and tongues
to the publication of such charges, he could not but
feel such conduct on the part of their Lordships as
at least affording some foundation for believing that
the'Report had a bona fide existence, and upon this
point her Majesty was most desirous of Ewing heard.
If the Report did exisi, it contained statements which
went even beyond the Bill; and which could not be
affirmed by the ossing of the Bill, or negatived by
its being thrown out. Those statements might, how-
ever, have the effect of exciting prejudices the most
injurious to her Majesty's cause, and ought to be
answered without delay. He therefore submitted,
with all respect to the House, that Counsel were to
speak generally to the whole of-the proceedings, and
that the subjects which he had particularized were
the only ones on which he had received instructions.

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Counsel were then ordered to withdraw.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that it was not
consistent with the usual way cf administering jus-
tice in that House, that Counsel should be heard
generally. They should confine themselves to the
mode of proceeding—the time, delay, or any other
substantial ground necessary for doing complete jus-
tice to her Majesty. But a statement of other flat-
ters, in order to induce their Lordships to alter their
course of proceeding, would be so anomalous a course
to allow, that it ought by no means to be permitted.
The matters to be stated were either matter of fact,
or matter of law—if matter of. fact,' there was no
principle on which it could be stated in the present
course of the proceedings, and if matter of law, the
necessity for it might never occur. He could only
govern his own conduct by his own opinion. He
would submit to whatever the House thought fit to
direct; tow it would be with the greatest grief, that
he should- see a precedent established in this case,
which cotild not in other cases be made applicable to
the ends of justice.
Lord DACRE suggested, that the Counsel should
be called in, and instructed by the House as to the
points on which they were to be heard.
TheLORD CHANCELLOR then moved, "That
the Counsel should- be called in, and restricted to the
mode of proceeding on the Bill then before the House,
and the time and times of such proceeding."
Earl GREY argued, that there cculd be no dan-
ger that the course of proceeding adopted in this
case would ever form a precedent, as it was not
likely that the occasion would ever again occur. He
also contended, that as it was in itself a new and ex-
traordinary case, all their Lordships had to consider
was, how substantial justice could be done, and that'
they should not exclude anything which substantial
justice required. He could not help thinking that the'
motion narrowed the instructions to Counsel too
much ; it confined them to the mode of proceeding
on the present Bill, and the time. But that was by
no means the extent of the application of Counsel.—
They applied to be heard, not only to the mode of
proceeding upon the Bill, but against the mode of
proceeding by Bill at all—( Hear, hear).—That he
conceived to be a good cause for granting the hear-
ing in the peculiar circumstances of the case. Then,
as to the time, it might be necessary to shew whe-
ther the delay should be previous to the commence-
ment, or in the course of the proceeding. He did
Inot understand from Counsel what the nature of the
' facts were which they had to urge, but it was highly
important that they should be heard, as they might
have the effect of inducing their Lordships to alter
the whole course of their proceedings—(Hear,.hear).
Ile therefore did not think it right that the instruc-
' tions to Counsel should be so narrowed according tol
the terms of the motion as to exclude them from '
making statements which, in the present stage of
1 the business, might prove highly worthy of their
Lordships' consideration—( Hear, hear).—He could
' not deoid throwing out these suggeseans, in the
' hope of inducing the House to give more latitude to
' the statements of Counsel.

• Lord LIVERPOOL supported the motion. He
contended, that Counsel should not have the liberty
of stating maters of fact, without any restraint as
to their object. He was of opinion that sufficient
latitude was given by. the motion, and • although he
was very desirous of hearing the Counsel, yet he

7,

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1 could not consent to let it take place in such a way i what he could-say upon it. There tould be but oue
as would infringe upon the privileges of a Peer. If mode of proceeding with respect to a particular Bat
Counsel were at present heard against the proceed. i that was established by the rules of the Houte, and it
ing by Bill at all, it would be interfering with the j was not the part of Counsel to instruct them.upon it.
privilege by which a Peer was authorized to lay a He had no new mode to propose. He did not 'meats
Bill upon the table ; it was therefore very proper to suggest that the third reading should take pike
that they should be confined to the mode of pro- beforethesecond—(allaugh)—or that another Secret.
ceecthigly the Bill brought in, and to the time and Committee should be appointed to back by their •Re-
times of such proceeding. port the opinion of the first. Such modes he did oat
The LORD CHANCELLOR stated, that although mean to-propose, or any other equally novel and fan-
the Bill had been read a first time, and her Majesty ciful, and which he-could hardly state with a grave
had received a copy 'of it, yet this was not the stage countenance. On the mode of proceeding, therefore,
inavhich to o=ppose it; but on the -second reading of he was left nothing to object, either matter of fact,
the Bill, wheneaer that might be moved for by any or matter of law. But as to the second point, the
Noble Lord; it would be competent to every person time, that indeed he could not understand ; but this
interested in the Bill to be heard upon it. Their was but the one point on which he was permitted to •
Lordships, heinsisted, could not hear Counsel gene- address their Lordships, whereas he had naturally
rally at present, without making a surrender of all thought, in the first instance, that there were two_
their functions. which mistake arose from the mode haring been se-
The Marquis of LANSDOWN was of opinion parated from the time, as a distinct and substantial
that the hearing of Counsel generally, and the allow- topic ; but if he were to go into an argument to prove
ing them to state those circumstances which might that their Lordships should change the mode of pro-
affect the proceeding by Bill at all would be nest ceeding before the second reading, he should be stopt
aflforinable to the ends of justice. by the rules of the House, according to which, when
• Earl GROSVENOR thought that no pojorof form strictly enforced, Counsel could not be heard against
ought to have the force of precluding CoOnsel from .the Bill until the second reading. He was, conse-
being heard, in order to shew that there were strong quently, to speak as to time, and that only. He was
reasons to induce their Lordships to alter their course not allowed to urge those weighty considerations to
of proceeding ; the refusal to hear those statements their Lordships which might counteract cite effect of
now might place their Lordships -in- an unpleasant the charges suspended over his Illustrious Client, and
dilemma, which ought, if possible, to be avoided. which were, perhaps, suspended for her absolute de-
Lord LAUDERDALE denied that Counsel ought struction ; but the very existence rf charges, %%Melt
to be heard generally until the second reading. It were not allowed to Ee answered, made it the interest
would then be a conclusive argument it Counsel of her Majesty to require justice in the speediest man-
could shew that it war not a case for legislation. nar. She asked for no delay—she was teach- to enter
TheLORD CHANCELLOR again spoke in sup. at once upon her defence, and to ?epel the charges in
port of his motion, and said, that on the second the Report and Preamble of the Bill—and to prove
reading Counsel could be heard without prejudice to them in the whole,. and every part, a tissue of unpa-
their argument, as against a legislative measure. ralleled falsehood I She called upon their Lordships
Lord HOLLAND thought the situation of her Ma- with an earnest, a pressing, and be might say, a
jesty one of peculiar hardship. Whether Counsel.were clamorous voice, for open and immediate justice I=.
to be heard now or hereafter was a question which She was prepared to enter into her defence that even-
ought not to be decided by a reference to forms, for the ing, if' it was their Lordships' pleasure, or to-morrow,
whole proceeding was anomalous, and ought to be 'and, in her behalf, he had to require that the second
regulated by the circumstances of its own case, con- reading of the Bill might be brought on as soon as •
'sistently with the ends of substantial justice. If Coun- possible, for the purpose of throwing it out. He
.-)el could not be heard against the Bill until the second spoke on this point principally from his own feelings
reading, then they could not be heard .until the evi- as an individual ; and he had to implore their Lord-
dence in support of the accusation had been gone ships not to interpret anything that he might say,
into, on which the second reading was to be moved. 'under the pressure of these, in his own disfavour, or ,
Thus the case ondhe part of the accusation would that of his Illustrious Client. He tnust deprecate
be heard, before Counsel could object to the mode of their Lordships laying any- stress upon anything that
proceeding, and the most serious injury might be resulted from unfhunded rumour or inteiested mis-
done to the accused, although the Counsel should representation. He trusted nothing of that kind
then :succeed in their application. He (Lord Hol- would operate to the prejudice of his Client in that
land) could not understand what was meant by the place, from whence equal justice should emanate to
mode of proceeding, if it did not mean the mode of the lowest as well as to thehighest individual in the
proceeding by a Bill at. all. In that case, the mat- realm. GOD send she had never risen higher than to
ters of fact might fairly be stated -in support of the the humblest of the King's subjacts! She N't uld then,.
argument against a Bill, and might the better enable in such a case, have those benefits a hich a-ere a lowed
the Counsel to prove that such a measure would be to tie meanest; she would, with reference to ti ial, hare
onerous to their client. At no time could these state- been furnished with a copy of toe 1,,,i it. z..rent, a list
ments be so well made, as when the Bill was.
pre- of the witnesses, and all those other advantages which
sented, since they were not allowed to be made before. the equal laws of England extend to all under their
Earl GREY again.speke in support of the prayer protection. The evidence against ker would be exa-
of the Petition. He said, that if Counsel were not mined in a Court of Justice, and she would have the
allowed to state Their objections to the mode of pro- benefit of a verdict 'of a Jury of her country. None
ceeding by Bill until the second reading, that then it of those persons would have been .the followers of
might appear the House had gone to much useless party, or influenced by gratitilde for favours re-
trouble ; for if their Lordships did not think it a mere celved, or influenced by the hope of favours in ex-
mockery to hear Counsel on the second reading, they pectation ; but would be tried by twelve honest, up=
ought to presume that matters might be stated Of so right, and impartial Englishmen. - Such would have
much weight and importance, as to induce their been the lot of his Illustrious Client, had her fortunes
Lordships to throw out the Bill; and then all their been among the humblest; but her present very ex-
labour would be lost. ' There was every considera- alted station tended to destitute her of all these fair
tion that ought to weigh with the House to enforce and legal advantages. Recurring then to the subject
the propriety of hearing-Counsel against the Bill in of time, the Learned Counsel repeated her Majesty's
the present stage. It would facilitate justice, dirni- wish that the shortest interval possible might elapse
nish trouble, prevent delay, and allay much public between that night *a:ii the second reading of the
agitation. As to irregularity, it was no argument Bill, and was in anxious hope of its being yet got
in the present case, which had been from the Outset rid of. In another view, something might transpire
irregular. It was not consistent with the forms of from evidence which may compe. their Lordships to
the House, that Counsel should have been called in act as Judges In a criminal proceeding. Nor could
at all, yet that had been done, and was properly they, he thought, as yet, have made up their minds
done; and he could not think that a formal objection that there could be no impeachment in the case. The
ought now to prevent them from hearing those mat- Statute of Edward 111. might not be acted upon, yet
ters which might influence their final decision. they may have to consider e halter any circumstance
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that although may not have happened at Malta, Gibraltar, or some
- the House had committed one irregularity, it was no ether place within the King's dominions, that may
reason that it should commit everether. fie then give a new turn to the charge.
re-stated his former arguments, after which Counsel The LORD CHANCELLOR remarked, that the
were called in. . - House had already determined upon its course of
proceeding, and the Counsel was not to state what
Mr. BROUGHAM and Mr. DENMAN again appeared
at the Bar, when . he supposed the House would do in a possible con-
' The, LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he was tingence which he might imagine.
commanded by the House to allow them to be heard Mr. BRotrollA* said, no power under Heaven
s
at the Bar, confining themselves to the mode of pro-
hould prevent him from doitig his duty to his Illus.
trious Client; but he might be put down ;there was
ceeding upon the Bill, and the time and times of the
proceeding. - no resisting power ; yet he knew that their Lordships
Mr. Bsioucuelt then addressed the House. He said weye wont to be just. -
be had some difficulty to comprehend what the par- The LORD CHANCELLOR—" The House is
titular points were to which the House had limitedjust sqlen it makes-an order to point out that course
or rather tied him down ; but taking them up with which the Coansel shall pursue."
all possible good faith and zeal, he begged the House, Mr. BROUGHAM proceeded, and repeated her Ma-
ifjesty's anxious wish that.no further delay might take
he failed in not catching the right sense of these
restrictions, and should' therefore say anything which place. .He censured the charges advanced at Neuilly
as false and unfounded, and further, they were false,
might not come exactly within their limits, to impute
it to misapprehension, on points which he bad not had foul, and (most malignant. He Melt confi !ent the
time to consider, and not to any intentional deviation House could never make itself a party in such a case.
from the strict meaning of their Lordships' injunction. He heard they had ordered the Attorney-General to
He had been instructed by her. Majesty to speak
attend ;still he could not think that anything beyond
public justice was. timed at. He was at peseta ar-
against this procedure by Bill ; but he now gathered
from the restriction imposed. upon.him, as to the guing upon the question-of terms merely. The pre.
points to which his observations were confined, that amble of the Bait he again insisted, presented a
tissue of foul ant amiss falsehood, becaine, if a
be would be right, in assuming that their Lordships
tenth part of it was believed, it would have been
had sanctioned the proceeding by Bill, and had not
the duty of the Crown Advisers to come forward a
only done that, but had come W a solemn decision
here rose to order, and
to go on with it ; and although there were grave ob-
long time ago.
' -
jections against it, had se inflexibly decided as to re-
he Bishop of EXETER
fuse to hear one word against that determination, insisted that the Counsel had gone be7ond the line of
1
This Bill was, then, to be looked upon as unalterable argument assigned to him by the order of the House.
for the present, and irrevocable Goo knows how long, Lord HOLLAND, in remarking upon 'the inter.
and therefore he was now tied down to die mode and ference of the Rev. Prelate, observed. the Spiritual
i time. As to the former of the two, he. did not see Lord should have gone a little further, and she" u
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