Star.
London, England, 1811-01-18 00:00:00

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is': •'. - . ti,". 41. , ititilt;o7tO afford big Majesty
- t', ,• " itit. ', •,r of whic.h his present situation
1i
s u second principle was, that what.
elees:.*--4il" of fair' political influence that could be
doutsferred to hioi, by whom the F,xecntive Authority
was to be exercised during his Majesty's' incapacity,
ought to be lodged in his iaands, rather than in those
Of any other indiviJual, His Right Honourable
'fiend bad judge.' rightly of him, when-he supposed
that he was prepared to undervalue the consideration
otexpence when Fat in cOmparison with considera-
: dons of greater importance." But he could not agree
in tin proposition that the Regent should have a se-
prate eAtablishment, unconnected, with that of his
ajesty. It was infinitely preferable that the Regent
should appear in his Father's splendour rather than in
ilk own. He felt the difficulty of the subject. He hid '
eperienced that clfficulty in reducing to shape his
Own view of it. It seemed to him, however, that if
tlle care of the Kitg's person was to be entrusted to
her Majesty, slit ought not to be stripped of,all con-,
ttoul overthe Household, although it would not be
necessary to confide to her great political power; and
it seefned.to him nn the other hand, that. the great
etao Officers of the crown shoulebe placed at the
disposal of the Regent. The Lord Chamberhyin, the
Master of the florte, and the Lord Steward, ought
to make part'of the State of the Regent. Then again
he thought that those Officers more tmlnediately con-
nected with the personal service of his Majesty, and
in the situation of whom, his Majesty might probably
be influenced by feelings of partiality, ought to be
lift under the controul of her Majesty, that on the
It ing'i awakening from his trance, he might find
himself still surrounded by them. He would there-
fore propose as an Amendment to the clause, that
after the words specifying that a part of -the House-
' hold should beplaced under the controul of her Ma-
,
jeStzt a passage to the following effect should be ia-
sated, viz :
"-flat the Master of the Horse to his Majesty,tbe 'Caper of
the Privy Purse, the Groom of the Stole, the Gentlemen and
Quintus of the edchamber the Captain of the Yeomen of his
Mainly', Guard, the Captain of the Band of Gentlemen Pen-
sibners, and general)); all Officers in the various' departments
tinder the Lord Steward, the Lord Chamberlain, and the
Master of the Hosre, who have hitherto been appointed and
rmoved by those three great Officers, and whose attendance is
neceasiry to enable her Majesty to discharge the !Ant reposed
ii her, shall be placed under her Majesty's cnntroul ; and
that such Officers shall attend at his Majesty's royal residence
Ind elsewhere. That it shall net be lawful during the cond-
;seance of this Act, to remove the Master of the Hone, the
,Keeper of the Brivy Purse, and the Groom of the Stele, from
their of eicept on an addrese from Parliament, or en a retire-
eintation (rem m her Majesty to the prince Regent under her Ma-
jeity's Sign Manual. That no vacancy arising in any of the said
offices freest whatever cause produced, should be supplied, or any
Ilepoint nvf te made, except only in the offices of Groom of the
Stole, and Keeper of the Privy Purse ; to which Offices, should
tfiefbecome vacant, her Majesty should have the power of ap-
panting. With respect to the Officers in the various departments
of the Lord Steward, the Lord' Chamberlain, and the Master of
the, Horsey placed under the controul of her Majestnit shall not
be /awful to remove such Officers, except on a representation
Item her Majesty; but that on such representation of elision-
&cube retnoval shall be peremptory. But that in respect to
fish Officers, in thetlireie juu mentioned departments, as are not
cainsecte4 with' the personal service of his Majcsty, nothing in
tjda An shall remove them from the contralti of the heads of
those department.."
He proposed, in the above Amendment, that the
4ireiitlr Officers of'the Household, to be placed under
key :Majesty's controul, should attend at his Majesty's
Roya):residence, ~. and elsewhere," because it was
v:ery possible tt4r, during the continuance of his 1444-
jistrs illness, it might be desirable to announce the
progress of his Majesty in a more solemn-way to his
. aroctioriate suhjects than was provided for in the Bill:
f6r-instance, it might be expedient to direct that a
4endemm and .4 Groom of the Bed-chamber should,
clue a week, or once a fortnight, be present at St.
*Lines's, to answer all inquiries that might beAnade.
By the proposition which he had just made; the
Regent would he invested with the splendour of the
Royalty, and sufficient controul would be left to her
Majesty without reducing her to the necessity of
ppssesslng political influence. Vi ith. the exception
of the two Officers of Groom of the Stole, and
Keeper of the Privy Purse, her Majesty would pos-
sess no pOlitical power—she could grant no office
Which could vacate a scat in that House. • He ob- .
jected to the proposition of his Noble Friend, to
cave the office of Lord Chamberlain vacant, and to
Create a Lord Chamberlain for the Regent, on the
principle that as the Regent was to possess a repre- i
sentative, and not substantive power, be ought to be .
attended by ,his Majesty's Chamberlain, and not by
his own. He was willing, however, to go as far as '
'is Right Hon. Friend in supplying those Officers
hid) could not be spared ; such, for instance, as the
i ..ords of the Bed-chamber. But on another point, an
irreconcilable difference existed between' him and his
Right gon. Friend. TVs Right Holt. Friend thought
sat
as this was a temporary measure, it was better to :
gtve larger powers to her Majesty, with a view to a
Obsequent revision of those powers, if necessary.— :
Ile, on the contrary, was decidedly of opinion, that it
would be infinitely more expedient at once to deter-
. ine upon the participation of power between the Re-
ent and her Majesty ; Which, in the event of a pro-
.
l ongation of his Majesty's illness, it night be expedi-
ht to continue.
- Lord CA s-r LE RE AGH concurred with the Right
Hon. Gentieman who had just spoken, that whatever
Might be the difficulty of the question, it ought to be,
t'.. posed of before the Regent assitme..: the Govern.
must. He a:d not conceive that the controul pro-
posed to be given ,to her Majesty over those Officers
Who were to be aliened to her, was sufficient. Charged
with such a delicate trust, her Majesty ought 6 be put
id possession of al; the means necessary to enahle her
to execute it. It was-not enough to provide that the
Officers under her controul should be removeable on
a representation to, the Regent. Many cases Might
occur in which an Officer might render himself sua!
eiently obnoxious, without affording groinds for a
Velma charge. He was therefore decidedly of opi:
nion that whatevever portion of the Household might
be appropriated to the Queen, liter Majesty should en-
joy. as absolute a controul over it as the Icing would.
.11: Objected also to the proposition of hie Rig4Ho-
uuurable Friend, that some of the Officers of the
Household should not by removable by any authority.
If the•malady with which his Majesty isat present af-
flicted he'd occurred soon aier he itscended tbe,throne,
had Failihment at that period acceded to snch a Intl-
posititin 'as diet made by his kight Hon. Friend, and
ticl his _Majesty's malady continued' during his life;.
these 01Ea0 rs, among whom'
were twenty-two Piers.
n 4 Members of Parliament, would Isase continued
..,, .:., •••• •• • ,•• • •••• " •-• :•••- -,- •- -•"

• 1K

in oldies that lmag,perlod, and by attichtag.thetn-
eelvPs ti a political perm; *ighr have possessed a
very undue rautasoe. He dfsapproved strongly of
any special Household for the Regent, whom- he
wished to see accompanied by Royal, but not by
peculiar State. On the other hand, he objected to
the project of giving to the GrOom of the Stole such
an extensive controul over the various departments
of the Household. He was convinced that it would
introduce a confusion into the service, from which it
could never be extricated. It was, however, by no
means necessary that those departments should be
administered by the heads of them, so as to deprive
the Regent of their services. - His Right Honourable
Friend had 'admitted, that the business of the Lord
Chamberlain might be transacted by .the Vice•Cham-
lain. There was no Vice-Steward, or Vice-Master
of the Horse ;'but it would be very easy to vest the
controul of Those departments in the second Officer
of each departmente having the chief Officer to'con-
tribute to the State of the Regent,
Mr. ADAM wished to extricate the Committee
from the difficulties in which they were involved. To
effect this, he proposed that the amendment which
had been moved by one Right Hon. Gentleman,
should be adopted, at the words « during the conti-
nuance of his Majesty's indisposition," and that the
words of the bill should be omitted to the end of that
clause, for the purpoie of adding words' somewhat
similar, but not the same, which might introduce the
proposition of another Right Honourable Gentleman;
doing this, he thought the ground would be clear. (A
laugh from Me Treasury Brach.) Gentlemen opposite
might laugh; but he was unconscious of giving 'any
cause for such mirth. He approved in the main, of
the Amendment of his Right Hon. Friend, thinking
the clause unconstitutional, as proposed. He would
have his Majesty's Household governed in a regular
manner; he would have the Groom of the Stole placed
at the head of the Establishment, and all the other
Household Officers tinder his direction, making him
(the Groontof the Stole) responsible to the proper ot-
fices for the sums expended by those acting under
him. He thought the proposition he had made to
extricate the House from the difficulties by which
they were encompassed, ought to be adopted. If it_
were not adopted, he should hereafter take an oppor-
'funky of expressing himself fully on the unconstitu-
tional doctrine which had been laid down, and the
innovation mane on the constitution of his Majesty's
Householt!, by declaring the Regent incompetent to
appoint a Lord Chamberlain.
Mr. WILBERFORCE had not t clear conception
of the business, and thought many of the Committee
would be called upon to vote in the dark. A great
impression was made en his mind by the reflection
of what might be the King's feelings oa the subject ;
and he thought they might be justified in making such
arrangements as would be mostgrateful to his feelitigs.
The statements made on that subject, they had rea-
son Lo believe, had been made by those to whom his
Majesty's feelings were best known;
Mr. ADDINGTON said, that in offering himself
to.the Committee, nothing could be farther from his
intention than to enter into a review of the cold de-
tails of the differept planslthat had been submitted to
its consideration, and especially Of the complicated
machinery of that which Itid been proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to hint (Mr. Can.
ning). He did not knnw whether many Gentlemen
present sympathised with him in the painful impres-
sion made on his mind by tie whole of the discussion
—a discussion the most abhorrent from his ,cell; of
any that he had recollected, during a long t...-lia-
mentery life, within these wails. The unfortunate
predicament in which the Hone was placed was the
result, not difficult to be anticipated at the time, of
what he must call the hasty and ill-judged adoption
of the Amendment which had been moved by a Noble
Lord (Lord Gower) on a former occasion. Posterity
would scarcely believe, that a British House of Com-
mons should, after a few weeks illness of a revered
and beloved Sovereign, have been found gravely de.
bating, on the quantum of comfort and of necessary
splendour, which they, the constitutional guardians
of the rights of their Monarch under his affliction,
should be pleased to dole out to him, or rather to
permit him to to retain; till it might please Paovt-1
DENCE to listen to the united prayers of his people in
restoring to him his health.
He had taken the liberty on a former occasion, of
submitting to the House the propriety of adhering
to the proceedings as applied to this point, which had
•been acted upon 22 years ago ; and by the adoption;
of which the House must now practically discover,
that the complicated difficulties in which we were now;
entangled would have been avoided. We had before '
us no less than five plans of arrangement, brought
forward by as many leading Members of the House,
and all totally differing from each other ; indeed, he
doubted whether any two Gentlemen could be found
who agreed on the specific course which it would be i
prudent to pursue. Of these 'five propositiogs, lie I
would almost defy any Member honestly to declare
that he distinctly understood any one of them.
• It had been asked by a Right Honourable Gen-
tleman
early in the debate, what would the people I
say, if they were to be told what and what powers I
were to he withheld from the Regent ? He would ask'
on the other hand, what would be the sentiments of
the People, generous and loyal as they arc, if it was
possible to take their opinions as to the quantity of
enjoyment, of ease, and even of splendour that should
be left to their King in his distress ?--They would
answer with acclamation —leave it all—act as men
no less wise than yourselves acted 22 years ago, and
protect to the utmost your Soepreign, who is disabled
by the hand of HEAVEN from protecting himself. He,
(Mr. A.) had heard it too asked that night, and he
was ashamed of the question, what had a King to do
with spletiddur who was reduced by illness to a state
of Insanity ? He would refer such Gentlemen for an
answer to the nevei-O-be-forgotten opiniOns expressed
sni this subject, of a Noble Lord (Lord Grenville)
22 years ago. He bad stated* and most, ustly, that
tile very incapacity from such a cante was an addi7
tional reason, so long asst continued, for maintaining
the Splendour of Rpyalty:- 'Why? because his Ma-
jetty 'being withdrawn from; the eyes of his subjects,
the pageantry with whiCh he was surrounded prop-
ted to them a constant reminder to 'them that they
had still a King on the threats who Might shortly be
restored to the exercise of his authority. • `
' If, said Mr. A. I had si'litind so vulgar, Is I mu
sore belfmgeto no man in .thii Ho use; 111 had are its.
tellectPr?! s°, degradfh Me* b 7 die

-

... . , •
100•167 sae arida bf theigaddble IPliniker Of its aP.
&r ing Regency ; if I was one of those, if any stich
are, who, wearied and satiated with the tiresome,
monotonous uniformity of the uniraried blessing of a
most paternal reign of more than 50 years, even pan-
ted fbr a change, still, as a Member of Parliament,
sitting in deliberation on this most afflicting occasion,
I should be ashamed io be found shrinking from any
atom of the sacred duty imposed upon me to maintain
inviolate the rights, to secure an unembitrassed resto,
ration to the exercise of the Royal functions ; and,
above all, to cherish and preserve the comforts and all
the external means which command respect, of our
beloved Sovereign, I would give liberally to the re-
presentative; but would be no party to any measure
that tended to diminish the ease, or to abate the lustre
of the principal. .
Mr. A. could only add, that in the present per-
plexed state of the question, if he was asked how he
should vote, his short answer must be—that he really
could not tell. He believed there were but few gen-
tlemen in the House who were not at that time in the
same predicament. He warmly approved of the sug-
gestion of hls Honourable Friend behind him (Mr.
Wilberforce) to take a few hours to weigh more fully
the several propositions before the Committee, in
• which there would be no inconvenience, as the House
must necessarily meet the following day. For his
own part, he should certainly be a supporter of chat,
which should be found to trench the least on the corn-
. forts, to be the least likely to affect the peace of mind,
land to leave the most of the trappings of Royalty to
the Sovereign, which were given for the most bene:
ficial purposes ; and the diminution of rhicb might
be attended with more serious conrequences than the
Home might perhaps be aware of.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought the difference of opinion which existed among
those Gentlemen who had spoke, must be felt as fur-
nishing some excuse for his failing to frame'the clause
to as to please every one. He bged to correct a
mistake of as Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Ponsonby), whO had understood him to say
that his proposition was what he conceived was de;
sired by the Committee. What he had said was, that
he had left a blank in'which Gentlemen might insert
what should be right in the eye of the Committee";
but when he came lo propose with what that blank
should be filled up, besitatedlwhat he (himself) thought
it ought to be filled'up with, still keeping in view the
former decision of the Committee. It had been said
the proposition he had submitted to them was at va-
siance with the arguments he had made use of. This
he could not help. He had been driven to them by
the sentiments of the majority of a former night; and
after the decisions to which he had alluded, he"
could not think• of bringing a proposition exactly the
same. He begged to assure his Honourable and
Learned Friend opposite (Mr. Adam), that when
he had laughed in the course of his (Mr. Adam's)
speech, it was not out of disrespect to him, but he ac-
knowledged his ( Mr. Adam's) proposition did excite
in him some mirth. when he talked of clearing the way
as his plan went to clear his (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) plan quite out of the way, without giving it
its turn in common with the other propositions betorc
the House. This, too, was to be effected in a very
convenient way; to make two Right Honourable Gen-
tlemen meet, who differed quite as much from each
other as he did from both. He then proceeded to take
a view of the proposition of his Right Honourable
Friend, than which he really thought, one more
extravagant could hardly be submitted to them. They
all knew that there were tour Great Officers in his
Majesty's Household, the Lord Steward, the Mae-
ter of the Horse, and the Groom of the Stole.—.
Could any thing be more extravagant than a propo-
sition to place the Groom of the Stole at the head of
1 the whole ? Could any thing that could be proposed
I be more unlikely to produce the effect which he de-
-1 sired, than a proposition which went to make the
Groom of the Stole responsible for the ac .s al the
i Servants of the Lord Chamberlain ?
_ _

Nothing could be more extravagant, and he confi-
dently hoped his own proposition would be prefer-
red to one so impracticable in itself. His Right Ho.
nourable Friend's plan appeared to him more reason-
able, though he could not agree to that. He thought
it unfair to place the Queen in a situation in which
she must carve out part of the establishment as she
desired for herself. According to his own plan, the
Lords and Gentlemen of the Bed-chamber would re.
main as they were, and the same statements would be
made to the public respecting the state of his Majes-
ty's health as at present. It was not his intention that
there should be but three monthly accounts of his Ma- I
jesty's health. If they looked at the bill, it would be
seen, that the Council were to be assembled so often
to inquire into the real state of the King's health,—
The sentiments of his N, •ble Friend under the gallery
had great weight with him as to principle. On a per-
manent establishment, theevils likely to result from her
Majesty's not having power to remove any Officer, I
might be great, but the evils which they anticipated
'night be borne under a temporary arrangement.- If
the arrangement proposed were for her Majesty's I
life, he should certainly think that the- power of re-
moving the Officers of the Household might be given, '
though he did not feel it necessary at present— '
The plan of the Noble Lord was, that the inferior
Officers should be attached to her Majesty, while the
superior ones were transferred to the Regent. Of all
the plans beside his own lie thought that the best.—
There was, however, a great difference between him
and his Noble Friend, a difference which he was of
opinion could never be done away. The Noble Lord
thought it was expedient and necessary to come now
to a final arrangement. He (the Chancellorof the
Exchequer) thought they ought not at present to give
any power which was to be permanent. At present I
they wanted information on the subject, which want I
Must be felt throughout the period of their sitting, ,
and therefore their decision on the subject ought not
to be final. On these grounds he came round to his
original proposition, which was, that her Majesty
should controul over those parts of the Household
which had a controul ofer the inferior parts. On this
question he now left the Committee to decide, giving
it as his opinion that the words proposed to be left
out for. the Amendment; might not to bramitted.
Mr. PONSONBY could not refrain from making
4002. ObSer‘atilabl on whit lad fallen from she Right
Hen. Gentleman. He had said that he thouightlie
own proposition hatter than in dm: Abets which had
been. sabigetted u) the Committee. He (Kr. Pon-
-4.l_4otie 'eye he (tke Chateellor el the Ea-

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N.