Star.
London, England, 1828-02-23 00:00:00

Ia the Land Forces, as to pay for the Men
The diminution of Recruiting &posses
is thesame Forces, for 0111corkke.
AMA' the Yeomanry. .

Idaking a total of
Fos Ddiscellansous Sodas&

Glebe shrug Saying of 159,8001
But, while he stated that as a saving in the Ordinaries,
he should• also-state, that chat .sum would be absorbed
by bringing thb.Colonial Corps upon that Estimate
(Hear, hear!) He should, therefore, at present postpone'
ping into a.datsil•of the several •items, - of which the
eit
Estimate must be necessarily made up, begging, .hosr.l
ever, to state, .that the. -numbers- now- called for were]
ought necessary ,for the effective maintenance of Uri
Military establishments. In conclusion, be elso.beggedi
to otterve, tharthewhole subject should still beis oPen!
M discussion as if the pewit Vote was not called for.
`'Oh the Osestion that t0.07# WU be granted to his Majesty,
Cdlonel DAVIES said -the discussions on the Army
Estimates were looked upon as dull as a thrice told tale,
but still it was a subject which required a few observa
dims. It now appeared that the Colonial Corps were
paid for out of tht fatids of thii country, although, it had'

been denied from year to yet?. He did not see why the
Colonies should tilt pay troops for their defence, unless
it was that the Colonies were kept up with it view to
'provide for the supporters of Ministers in both Houses
Of Parliament. In fact, if House now agreed to the
numbers called for by the Noble Lord, it would be ab-
surd to.say that they could be discontinued at the end
-of the first half year. He contended that the whole
subject of our income and expenditure should go before
,the Finance Committee, and he hoped they would look
lat these Estimates with a very jealous eye. He hoped
to see a great reduction in all our establishments—if the
interest of the people was considered. Even in the year
1823, the number of men was nearly twenty thousand
less than this year.; and why the larger number should
be ntw called for he was. utterly at a loss to compre-
hend ? The item for recruiting was less this year, he
admitted ; but why maintain eleven thousand men as
depots for recruiting? There was no necessity for any
such number, and if it was diminished the saving would
be a great deal. The increase on the recruiting was
now nearly ten thousand pounds more than in 1819.
At present he would not further proceed than to enter
his protest against the general amount of the vote
called for.

Alderman WAITHMAN said, he would take other
opportunities of objecting to this vote in detail; but at
present he could not agree with the proposition before I
the House. They were called upon to vote for ninety
thousand men. He denied that such a force was neceto.
sary ; and he thought no such vote should be agreed to
until the whole state of the finances was laid before the
country. As to any expectation from Committees, he
expected none; for in general they ended in mere delu-
sion, and were only fp anted when Government was in
a state of difficulty and could not other wise go on. He
did not go out of his way to support the last Govern=
mein, neither would he act so by the present; but he was
led to expect that the last Government had prepared
some retrenchments, but that in the squabbles which to, k
place in the last ten months, they had neglected their
public duty. It was the constitutional right ofthis House
to look to the expenditure, and no sinister proposition of
Mini.ters should induce them to give it up. He remem-
bered that, in the year 1817, Lord Castlereagh came
down to this House with a good speech, a great deal
of good humour, and full of economy; but the Noble
Lord was driven to that economy by his having lost the
Income Tax. But for that, no reduction would have
taken place. In fact, so long as Ministers could
ruse money they would save nothing, no matter how
full the poor houses might be. In 1821.2 there was
something of a surplus, which induced extravagance;
hut since 1817 the expenditure had annually increased.
He gave the Right..Honourable Secretary every credit
for his professions of economy ; but what he might think
economy, he (Mr. Alderman Waitliman) might not.—
Looking at the income and expenditure of five years,
the former was 261,000,0004! th.latter 249,000,0001.
leaving a surplus of 12,000,0004 ,But then, taking the
loss of the Sinking Fund, and:it-would be found that
there was a losrot nearly eight millions. Under such
circumstances, he asked, why callfor a standing army,
and that at an expense, which only a Military Com-
mander could enforce at the point (*.the bayonet. Sint*
1817 the expenditure increased by some millions, if
their' own accounts *ere to be credited. In 1825, Ahem
was an expense of some millions, and
,1827, si.x
!ions and a half; so that during a period of tout or five
years there was an aggregate additional expense of nine
millions and khan..
,The
-country could not bear this.
In one parish in the City.of London 193 c,ersons were'
summoned for non payment of Poor Rates in a parish
of only 400 houses. In such a state of things
should not the public expense be economised as much;
as possib:e? He would not be doing his duty if he did
not oppose the vote now called for. In the time of
King William the standing army was only 7,000 men,
whereas they at present had above 6,000 cavalry, and
6,000 horses devouring the country—(Hear, and a
laugh). Even in the reigns of the two first Georges the
forces were not 18,000 men, though then !here was
some pretence for maintaining such a number of mesh
They did not now want a standing army—they wereot
peace with all the world. What need thee,, be aelted,
' of 90,000 men? It might be that such' I ;tares Would
not be dangerous, but the precedent was bed, sled he
therefore nowlouclly protested against its' The Poble-
Secretary (Lord Palmerston) was free from the squab-
bles which had occupied several of his cokleagues, and
he therefore thought he might be prepared ' with
some more more explanations than he had offered
to the House. It was well laid, that times of
difficulty were times of economy, and Ministers
never thought of it in other circumstances. But now
they were adding to the public diebts—they went on
borrowing money—they used' the Sinking Fund, and
now called fora Committee 'to billet them thiough the
difficulties. He could have no co fidence in the Go-
vernment—the. last exploded, and the same two Right
Hon. Gentlemen who were the gunpowder, were still in
• the Ministry. How then, he asked, could such a Go.
vernment hang ?—it was an ugly sound, and he did not
like to use it, though some people would say they de.
served it. These Right Hon. Gentlemen had entered into expla-
nations, but nothing could be more unsatisfactory to the country.—
But at last, the two Right. Hon. Gentlemen were in the arms of
each ether, after (waling so delusively with their firmer colleagues.
• The public required men of honour In high situations, but of many
of the Government they knew nothing. In fact, they might as well
expect to see Liston play. Sir Ceorse Acres, or • Mr. Kenible Tony
Luospkia, as some of the Ministers in their present situation—
(Hear, and a laugh). In fact, they were called upon to cut down
the establishments, fur the country could no longer bear them. The
people of this country were now loyal and peaceable--they were
intelligent in an extraordinary degree, and therefore tto each army
could be necessary for our protection. He implored the House to
look earnestly at this matter—to exercise their constitutional rights,
and not vote away the public money without necessity aad ample
information. He begged pardon of the House for having detained
them so, long, but felt he would nor be discharging his duty if he
had nit offerediuch a statement of his views.

Mr. BERNAL wished to know why the Estinnates
were only to be voted for six Months? Or could the Finance Coal-
mine* say that the number of men shouldle hereaftet reduce ?
Lnid PALMERSTON-said, if ibts vote were agreed
to without any explanation. it might ayydaki that the number called
for was to be continued. But the fact was that the numbers were
as open to curtailment as if this vote were not called for. He
thought it would be more convenient to enter upon the wtole dis-
cussion at another period.
Mr. MABERLY thought
_the proper period for the
discussion of the'Ettintateswas Weal itkoTStippl ies.were
called for. This-ltiouse_was to. judge of the fitness or
expediency of agreeing to this or anyother vote without
any reference to What might herstifiet' be recommended
lsy the Finance COmmittee..L.ihich at least could only
'recommend that we should have a peateestablisbment.
The present Was the period either to give or withhold their can.
&levee ; and this House alone bad to deal with the propriety
or otherwise of granting the number called for. He did not say
whether ninety-one thousand men would be too many or too few ;
.but be could not agree with the Worthy Alderman, that Finance
conwsMtees were little better than a delusion. The Noble Lord
(Lord Palmerston) stated, that 5,000 men were to bq reduced, and
yet be called for ninety.one thousand. Now, what he (Mr. Mai
berly) vented to knew was, whit was the necessity for sock a
force? Hitmuch feared that the unfortunate Treaty of July might'
in its ultimate eonsequences call for an increase ; and of that Treaty
be must enww_aect. that be never knew any thing more contrary to
taternational iswer-snore .osjust• sad inexpedient—(Hearchear);

He hoped its bad effects would pass away, and that it would not
ultimately involve us in a war.
Mr. PEEL was sure that when the question before the
Committee was clearly understood,little difference would
be found between both sides of the House. They
Would no doubt listen to any suggestions of the Com.
inittee; but this House was to give its ultimate jeg.
ment in all matters coming before them. His Noble
Friend had not refused giving explanations.„,_bulfie
'stated that it would be more expedrentl;Wray. it until
the whole matter should be brought before their notice.
The Finance Committee might throw some new light
upon the subject, and till then only was delay suggested
as desirable. He thought he had on a former occasion
sufficiently explained the duty of the Finance Corn.
mittee, and it must be evident that no precise rule
could be laid down for their guidance. They could
inquire into some things—while in others the country
had to trust to the responsibility of the Government. By
way of illostration, he would take the secret article in;
the late Treaty—and in that the Committee Could •
I not take upon them to say what force would or
would not be necessary to give it effect ; because they'
did. not know its precise or specific object. He under-
stood that the Committee were at this moment investi-
gating the Navy Estimates, and that they had sum-
: moned before them one of the Lords of the Admiralty
land one of the Secretaries: they also started in their
inquiries from the period of 1792. The Government
i wished:not to shift any fair degree of responsibility from'
,them, nor to place too much on the shoulders of the
'Committee. He thought the speech of the Honour.
able Alderman fully proved the necessity of a Finance
Committee, though he expected nothing from it ; and
he (Mr. Peel) was rather surprised.that the Honourable
Alderman should, on a Vote of Supply, mit up so
much politics, or enter into a further detail ab'ut ex.
planations, which he hoped would now be at an end-.
(Hear, hear). He thought the appointment of a Finance
Committee to be a most desirable thing; and he could
assure the House that the course to be pursued by
Government, relative to the vote now before them,
would allow the fullest and -most ample inquiry and
'deliberation. N
Mr. CALCRAFT had no objection to the vote of
three millions on account ; but the Noble Lord said he
'particularly wanted his Mutiny Bill passed, and then
asked for 91,000 men, with a vet bal explanation that
they were not to be bound by the Act of Parliament,
'without which he could neither have the one nor the other
t---(Hear). He said truly, we would not be aLliberty
to remove the mei', but that we might take away or cut
off the means .of supporting them hereafter; but surely
the House could not be led away by any such course
of dealing. As the Noble Lord so much wanted the
'Mutiny Bill, why not take it for the same period as the
present vote, antlthen.there would be little objection to
it? He (Mr. C.) did not thinkthe iteina could be much
reduced, looking toihertfiature of our-service, end, to
what the faith of treatiea.might oblige us; but avhat he
wanted was, that the Moths,' Bill should be taken foe
the same period as the present vote. Tne Right Hon. Se-
cretary (Mr. Peel) had charged the Hon: Alderman with.
indulging in extraneous topics ; but he (Mr. C.) .meuldi
be glad to ast the Right Hon. Gentleman what could
be properly called so in a Committee of Supply ? ' Mr.
Pitt, Mr. Fox,- Mr. Sheridan, and Mr. Wyndham, always
discussed great public questions on occasions similar to
the present, and never were considered as having acted
inconsistently with their Parliamentary duty. - Lfaaking
at the changes which had recently taken place, he was
glad that a new set of performers were now put together
at theTreasury-:-men who were not pledged to the follies
and quackeries of their predecessors in office. That he
hailed as a most fortunate event—for neither the Fir's;
Lord of the Treasury, nor the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, nor the First Financial Secretary, were bound in
any way to continue the delusive fallacies of those. who
Were before them as to the state of the public accnunts:
As. to the Finance Committee, he hoped they would do
their duty faithfully ; and for the Country itself he saw
no necessity for alarm. By economy and frugality in our
expenditure, our income would soon.be made to over
iti—and if there were any surplus, it, should be applied to
the extinction of the debt. With regard to the powers
of the Committee of Finance, he agreed with the Right
Hon. Gentleman that they could not erect themselves
into a Cabinet Council to determine what force was re-
quired by the country. It would be well for them to
inquire and give information to the House. but he pro-
tested against being bound 'to their report. Upon the
expenditure of the Civil 'List, their inquiries would be
much more useful, and. they would be beimr able to
decide upon what its extent ought to be, better than
any individual Members of the House. There was Urn
item in the Army Estimates which gave him greet lief
Bret. He alluded to the keeping up of 23,000 mea for
the service of Ireland. He protested against the coo.
tinitance of that stupid policy which rendered the
keeping up such a force necessary. He called upon the
Gentlemen of England to look at this question as nee
of expense, and remember that the Land Frit ces of Ire-
land cost this country a million a year, anclthe.system
which they were employed to support was constantly
inundating us with Irish poor and sent our own upon
the poor-rates. These were reasons which rendered the
continuance of such a system as profligate in its waste and
expenditure, as it was foolish and perverse in principle..
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that the Hon. Member bad
misunderstood what he had said. He had admitted that
it was perfectly competent for any Member upon a
question of Supply to go into any topic coonected with
the Government of the country. He had only suggested
that it would be better to leave to the attention of the
Finance Committee such subjects as would properly and
necessarily come under their investigation. He never
meant to make such a limit as the Hon. Member sup-
posed, or to prevent him from speaking on the ainount
of military force in Ireland, or any other such topic.
Mr. CA LC R A FT explained.
Mr. HUME said, that the explanation given by the
Rthiaegshtton Finance
Hi shoal.
theC Righto mHouse
Committee,
it t Hon.ee
0, wnSecretary, s
former
similaro r me r nat
ios 8
that
t the
w fronthpi oc
i: 0 r
another a
mucho f
Gentleman; and if the powers of the Finance Committee
were to be so limited, it would be of noes,.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that he had only con-
tended that it, could not be in the knowledge of the
Connnitteir what arnount of force was necessary, so weii
as in that of -tie Government.
gr.-HUME said,, that if the Finance Committee had
not t-he means of -deciding what force was necessary,
their4pinion wotildlich be of the smallest value; there-
fore, now wai the time when the House ought to call
Upon his •Majestes, Ministers to account to them why
it was necessary to rote so large an amount of Money..
He contended that the great reductions which he had
formerly proposed, could be made without any incon-
ennience to all the service that was required. In
the Colonies there was an immense military expense,
which it was now acknowledged fell upon this coun-
try, although it had formerly been-denied. The Noble
Lord opposite had told the House that that expense
did not fall upon the country, and he ought now to
apologise for the delusion.. They were told, too, the

other day, that
there was a Sin
was plenty of
they had been 11
"tamable Horn
•eil and exposes
that tbe Treasur
to have a bona.)
a half, and tha
ducted and its c
fore time for the
in the state adm
whether they col
which required
by such ellormo
No man looked

self at the resout
but he would as
'country to go of
isn extravagant
io know what al
ountry sufEciej
establishments s
-aware that the n
'but not so as to
department. A
tnlonies were go
between five anc
fateful to the p
Governor, and
improperly treat
they like the

twice elected a
r;on, and then
Yet in Canada tl
rison of 6,000 in
in the whole of t
appointment of r

keeping up garri
the colonists. He

be investigated b
bound to say, th
fair—(Hear)—at
- seemed disposed
the purposes of
amount of our
would have to
was nothing bef
forces now prop
why 22,000 men

was now necessa
2stantly kept up
„bay. a military

though they hai

his gOod sense w
• merit 'ot this cool
• iletermined to ki
▪ ;wort break dom
.paythe soldier.
heir g the first 1
nottAld now ear,
country tram tw
.:itcwas in his por
t Amendment;
MACDI

44 acquiesce in t
Itis!ote being co
to the Governme
in which one pm
...sad charges of
by them again
004Ivith this
siblo that* cou
a viva to its sup

reclueing the nus
who moved the 4
iuf eirecting.his c
to decide what tl
until another ger
had. It was u
that inquiry had
Lotd himsrll col

S!OM men there
~..•
reduction. was F

that it would hal
in the estimate a
ivhich the ltight
the gAecb of an
he heard nothing
And most constit
ntsfi've'of r.
Ahe,.l-lonour able

Fiassee-Commil

ittidigGentleniati
duction affectini
would be more
such departinea

Mr. Aldermai

expressed arbad.opi
that the House euX
Sir J. MACD

tiontarwe•before th
that the House wot

Inuit& v.racticrblei
easetatleilfer the rea

Lord PALM.
of the :►umber c
woald. not prec
m'ght hereafter
what inconven
smaller numbei
plated ?. The a
the distance at v
abroad, the time
the votes, but ix
distance. The
now that the ac
piffled, fotind to
done it sooner.
ragement to thr
znents when the
the Honourable
with everyimpr
ao topic of his
dislike it, he tI
thank him for tl
Army Estimate
for the necessit)
in our forces sit
remember that
down from a mi
some previous y
tion was, that tit
complaining of
the service abi
service of the C
posing upon thi
cculd not be el
consequence of
encountered in
an atigmentatic
service abroad
troops over an,
little surplus sl
home. He woe
two years had

rA