Star.
London, England, 1820-05-16 00:00:00

The LORD ADVOCATE declared that 'lli con-
scientious opinion was the very reverse of that con-
tained in the Report. He himself, and all whom he
had consulted on the subject, concurred in opinion,
that an institution which the experience of more than
a century had proved to be useful, ought not to be
`hastily altered. Therefore, if any alteration were to
take place, it should require long and mature deli-
beration, before the same were attempted. With
regard to the institution of the Jury Court of Scot-
land, it was first taken as an experiment. All cases,
at first, were to go to the Court of Session, before
they came into that Court ; and a prejudice had long
prevailed against the Court. An Act was passed,
however, which declared that the cases should first
come bet Ore the Jury Court, a great deal of business
was thrown into it, and the Judges in that Court
were necessary, for they had a great deal of busi-
ness to do in the Court of Exchequer and the Court
of Session. As to the Commissioners, so often
spoken of by the Noble Lord, he declared that they
had no power or right to make the report which
they did. With respect to the fourth Baron of the I
Exchequer, the appointment of that officer was com-
pletely justifiable. The Officer did uniformly for
years, attend as King's Remembrancer of the Ex-
chequer in Scotland. He alluded.to Sir P. Murray ;
and no man could be better qualified to fill the of-
fice of a Baron. He had been appointed because he
was perfectly well acquainted with the practice of
the Court. The same thing could be said of the ap-
pointment of Mr. Baron Parrott. By the appoint-
ment of the first a considerable saving accrual to
the . Public, because the office of King's Itemem-
brancer ceased on his retiring from it. As to the
question, whether this office ought to he tilled up?
he declared there was no foundation for asserting
that it was unnecessary. At the time of the union
with Scotland, it was declared that there should be
a Court of Exchequer in Scotland, and th.tt it should
not consist of less than' five members; and it was
thought that the business of the 'Court could not be
carried on with less... Such had been th-a practice for
upwards of a hundred years in Scotland, where the
prejudices were as much in. favour of five, as the
prejudices in England were in favour of four. It
was necessary that the Court should consist partly of
English and partly of Scotch lawyers, because there
were many points which it required English lawyers
to determine. It was held that three Judges were
necessary from the Scotch Bar; for the purpose of
determining numerous cases respecting Scotland;
this business had greatly multiplied, and he was sure
the business could not be conveniently done with a
less numbir. It was azreat mistake to say that the
chief business was done by the Rememlantncer. There
were various cases relative to the lands of the Crown,
which required the strictest attention of the Judges
of this Court. No charter could pass without their
decision, and there were various other cases of a si-
milar kind which required their close attention. In
answer to all this, there was nothing but a Report of
some Parliamentary Commissioners, who stated that
one of the Barons might be dispensed with. But he
contended that these Commissioners exceeded their
powers, and went oat of their way when they re-
ported on the constitution of this Court. Their duty
was to inquire into the emoluments of Officers and
Ministers of Justice. He wished to knew in what
instance the Judges of Scotland could be called Mi-
nisters of Justice ?—( Hear, hear).—They might, in
one sense of the word, be called so; but in theavords
of the Act appointing the Commissioners, it was not
meant that the Judges should come under that de-
nomination : for if the Judges were to be subject to
their inquiry, they would have been named first.
The only object of the Commission was, to inquire
into fees of officers, clerks, &c. and to the remedy
of abuses that might be practised in the receipt of
fees, salaries,- and emoluments, on the part of the
under officers of the Court. The Commissioners,
therefore, had no power to make any report respect-
ing the Judges. On this occasion, he could not
avoid expi easing some censure at the manner in which
the Noble Lord had brought forward the name of a
venerable and respectable Judge, whose grey hairs
might have been saved from the severe reflections of
the Noble Lord—( Herethere teas a loud cry of Or-
aer," and " Chair").
The SPEAKER observed, that it was not consistent
with order to enter into observations of this kind.
The Learned Lord said, he had no intention to
give any offence, and he then proceeded to argue
against the power exercised by the Commissioners,
with regard to the Judges of Scotland. He then-al-
luded to the appointment of Sir Samuel Shepherd to
the office of Chief Baron of Scotland, and declared
that the people of that country felt grateful to the
English Government for sending a Gentlemaeof his
excellent character, his amiable manners, and great
legal knowledge, to preside in their Court. And,
unless it should be supposed that there was something
infectious in the air of Scotland—(A laugh)—it was.
incredible to conceive that that Learned and respect-
able person would give an opinion which he did not
feel to be fair and impartial, respecting the constitu-
tion of the Court where he presided. His opinion
was in favour of the Court as it was now constituted ;
and with such an opinion before the House, he trusted
they would not attend to the unauthorized report of
a set of Commissioners. He now wished to inform
the House, that instructions had been given to him
to prepare several Acts, which he was to submit to
the House, for the regulation of the Courts in Scot-
land. In the month of December last, he gave no-
tice of his intention to bring forward these Bills ; but
before he did that, it would have been necessary to
vote the salaries of the different Officers in a Com-

mittee of Supply; and his intended measures were
delayed on account of the House having been occu-
pied in preparing measures for the defence of the
country, and since then he had been unavoidably
absent from the House. He had, however, in the
interval, taken the trouble to draw out the heads ofl

the Bis he intended to offer to the House, had them

'printed, and submitted to the Law Authorities and

to the whole of the Bar in Scotland. They met the
approbation of all those parties ; and he now gave no-
tice, that in a few days lie would move for leave to
bring them in. Therefore, nothing should be left
iindone which might be considered necessary for the
constitution of the Scotch Courts, the riumber of
_ _

Judges in which Parliament might fix as it pleased.
With respect to the assertion that the late Baron
Campbell had not attendcd.the Court for three years,
that was not the fact. He was only absent one year;

and when he resided at Bath, altough al an estate
of health, *he used to go to Scotland during the
Terms to attend his duty. •
Lord ARCIIIBILD HAMILTON in explana-
tion, said that he had not applied his argument ad.
houtinem. He only meant to say, that if one of the
Barons was absent fur a year, and that the business
'‘)f the Court suffered no injury thereby, it was pro•.
table that the three others, by whom the business in
the meantime was carried on, might be sufficient for
all the duties of the Court.
'The LORD ADVOCATE observed, that illness'
was a matter of accident, which was liable to occur
at ail times. It was found that individuals would be
in all eases—(.4 laugh).
Sir JOHN NEWPORT took a review of the pro-
ceedings connected with the institution of the Com-
mission, and the final abandonment of their recom-
mendation by the Government, and contended that
the House should look upon the conduct of Ministers
with great distrust. He appealed to a precedent in
the case of Ireland, in answer to the objection, that
the Commissioners, by inquiring into the duties, the
fees, and salaries of officers in the Court, had ex-
ceeded the authority of their commission. He next
adverted to the Commission appointed to inquire
into abuses in the offices of Masters in Chancery, and
endeavoured to shew, from the conduct of Ministers
in that transaction, that he was warranted in calling 1
upon the House to exercise suspicions upon the con- I
duct of Ministers ; for, after the Commission was ap-
pointed, against the consent of Ministers, they, in
order to defeat its object, appointed two Masters in
Chancery to the Commission, and the consequence
was, that they left many important abuses unnoticed.
It was urged, that the present Commissioners stated
no grounds for the conclusion which they promul-
gated. But had they not stated the nature of the
duties of the office—the number of cases heard in
Court—the number of motions on an average for the
last three years—the extent of the sittings (which,
by the bye, included about eighty-five days in all,
without deducting Sundays and Mondays, on which
days they did not sit)? Such were the grounds of
the Commissioners' opinions. The Learned Lord,
indeed, could not get rid of the inveterate prejudice
of having five, • instead of four Judges. He seemed
to think even that this number was made necessary
by the Act of •Union, which said, that the Judges
should not exceed five, without remembering that
the existence of any number under five was not irre-
concileable_ to the terms of the Act. But where
there was such a conflict of opinion as between the
Judges on one side, and the Commissioners on the
other, would it nct have been decent of Ministers to
wait for the judgment of Parliament before they
acted upon either opinion? Such treatment of a
Report of Commissioners was enough to discourage
any man employed in such a situation from the dis-
charge of his duty. About two years ago, he Fad
moved for a reference of the Reports of the Commis-
sioners of Inquiry to a Select Committee of that
House, and he was met by the statement, that as
soon as any act was done contrary to the recommen-
dations of the Commissioners, it would be quite time
enough to have the inquiry go forward. Here then
was the recommendation departed from, and here
was the case for inquiry. It appeared that Ministers
were willing to postpone the appointment till the
Commission was appointed ; but as soon as they as-
certained that the Commissioners proposed an alter-
ation in the constitution of the Court, then they
made the appointment. The :light Honourable Ba-
ronet then proceeded to shew, from the Report itself,
that the business of the Court, instead of being in-
creased, was either stationary or diminished.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he should shortly
state to the House the grounds upon which he gave
his vote that night. He thought the House could not
be justified in agreeing to the motion of the Noble
Lord, founded as it was upon the opinion of the
Commissioners, which was not attempted to be sup-
ported by any inquiry, or evidence- of the grounds
upon which they formed it. He (Lord Castlereagh)
was far from complaining of the sentiments which,
the Right Hon. Baronet had expressed, namely, that
the House should support with jealousy its own Com-
mission. From what had fallen in the course of the

debate, he was assured the House would permit him
to say a few words in reply to some reflections made
against his Majesty's Government, IT the Right Hon.
Baronet supposed that Ministers entertained any other
notion in the present times than that of diminishing
the expenditure, reforming abuses, and removing un-
necessary burdens, he supposed the existence of mo-
tives which Ministers disclaimed. The Right Hon.
(gentleman said, that Ministers only looked to the
suppoi t of the patronage of the Crown, and that to
that they were willing to sacrifice every principle of
economy. It was usual with some of the Gentlemen

opposite, especially .at the period of a new Parlia-
ment, not only to repeat remarks of this description,
but also to inculcate the notion, that all the purity
and disinterestedness in the House resided at their

side of the House. He (Lord Castlereagh) hoped
that bolt sides of the House were possessed of parity
enough to discharge from their minds whatever mo-
tives did not tend to the tranquillity and improve-
ment of the country. But he would repeat, that the
imputation of bad motives upon his Majesty's Minis-
ters was improper, and history would furnish in-
stances in which those who charged were more often
actuated by bad motives than those whom they
charged. With respect to the immediate subject
before the House, he should say, that generally
speaking, Parliament should, as much as possible,
support the acts and recommendations of its Com-
_ •

Without blaming the Commissioners
for having extended their inquiries to various parts
of the constitution of the Court, he had no doubt
that if the Commissioners had been expressly ap-
pointed for the purpose of inquiring into Fees, Sala-
ries, and Duties, the persons who formed the present
Commission would not have been appointed.--
It was not his intention then to examine the opinions
or the grounds of opinions of the Commissioners, or
those who opposed them, but -lie entertained no
doubt that it was in his power to shew that the
weight of evidence was in favour of the appoint-
ment of a fifth Baron. With respect to the present
question, it was his intention to move upon it the
previous question. At the same time, if the Noble
',Ord, feeling that his case was strong, was willinj
to propose hereafter a course of inquiry, to take evi-
dence upon the different circumstances which in-
duced the Comisussiotwu t final their opinion, he

(Lord Castlereagh) tvould have no abjection to' AC•
cede to it—(Loud cheers from Me Opposuion Benches).
—lt was worthy of remark too, that the Commis-
sioners had not peremptorily declared their opinions,
but that they expressed them with great caution and
doubt. (Here the Noble Lord read a passage from
the Report). Ile protested againit the (Onion, that
because a Court might proceed for a certain interval
in the absence of one of its authorities, that should
be a reason for dispensing for ever with the autho-
rity who had been thus only temporarily absent.—
But were there not many political offices, the duties
of which proceeded as usual in the occasional ab-
sence of one of its functionaries ? It was well known
that one of the most brilliant ornaments of the legal
rrotession, Lord Mansfield, was subject to frequent
intervals of indisposition, which rendered his ab-
sence unavoidable. Bat who would attempt to say,
that because the business of the Court was curried
on without his attendance, therefore the offih of
Chief Jusice ought to be removed. He did not
mean to give an opinion upon the subject himself,
and therefore it was that he felt inclined to yreld t..
the opinion of the Judges, in preference to the jud;-
ment of the four Commissioners, who came to flit.:
conclusion in opposition to the sense of the oniy
Judge amongst them.—(Hear, hear).—lt had heel
said that the Court of Exchequer in Scotland
should be placed upon the same footing as that
England. He denied this propotition, because there
was no analogy between their respective duties—
(Hear, hehr).—(Here the Noble Lord deailed tiv
various duties of each, with a view to shew that the
Court in Scotland had more extensive jurisdiction).
—Of all the economies most abhorrent to the senti-
ments of the l'ublic, economy exercised towards the
Members of the Bench was the worst. The question
here was not tt hether I:2000 shall b, given out of the
public money, but whether the administration of
justice in Scotland should be placed on a footing the
most favourable to the security of thei subject ?—.
If, however, tllb Noble Lord had confidence in the
justice of his propositions, let him move for a Com-
mittee. He (Lord Castlereagh) was not prepared to
say what he should do w ilia regard to the appoint-
ment that had taken place—(loud cheeriagfrons Me
opposition Benches). It was the It writ of the Gentle-
men opposite to swell their voices louder in propor-
tion to the weakness of their :twine:as. In truth.
they were never so happy as w hensthey had some
LI 000 or another to animadvert ui.on. He denied
the imputation that Ministers did nut feel as deeply
as any in that House for the distresses of Scotland.—
The Scotch poor were too enlightened to excite any
thing but sympathy for their miseries. He then pro-
ceeded to shew that it was usual, in cases of this
description, to have the Report of the Commission
referred to the authorities belonging to the Court,
who gave effect to it by their decrees, and at their
discretion. This was the course now followed, and
was a much better course than to hang up the Court in
a new and fantastical state, with four Judges instead
of five. 'fire Noble Lord then moved, as an Amend-
ment, the previous question.
Mr. TIEPNEY began by noticing the complaint
of the Noble Lord, that imputations had been urged
against Ministers of their disinclination to retrench-
ment. The Noble Lord had said that injustice had
been done to Ministers by some Members not be-
lieving their professions of a determination to eco-
nomy. "So help me Gon," said the Ri&ht Hon.
Gentleman, " I do not believe their prottassions; nor
do I think that any real economy is ever to be ex-
pected from them." He was of opinion that all their
attention was directed to the maintaining of their pa-
tronage, and that they went now reduced to that situa-
tion, that they could not afford to lose the third of a
fifth Baron of the Exchequer ! (A laugh). When a pro-
position was made for the reduction of any useless office,
the reply was, " No, it breaks in on the establishment."
The Noble Lord and the Learned Lord beside him
differed materially in their views upon this subject.
The latter came down, and, like a good Scotchman,
maintained that five was the good old Scotch num-
ber, that he would have five Judges, and wanted ro
inquiry. The Noble Lord, however, was willing to
grant inquiry. Why was not this inquiry ranted
before? Who would think of proposing an inquiry
after the harm was done ? He (Mr. Tierney) con-
tended, that the Commissioners had peremptorily
declared their opinions to be against the appointment
of a fifth Baron ; and read an extract from the Re-
port, in which he said that peremptory opinion was
expressed. It was whimsical enough, however, that
the supporter of the number five, should be the per-
son to make a reference from the opinion of five to
the authority of four. It might be true that an Act
of Anne appointed five Barons; but was no regard to
be paid to the difference of times and circumstances,
which might make the appointment of those Judges
necessary in one case, and useless in another?—
Notwithstanding the rhetoric of the Noble Lord, he
(Mr. Tierney) could not but think the appointment a
very extraordinary one. Whatever might be the
merits and various qualifications of Mr. Adams cr
Sir P. Murray (one of whom was, however better
capable of filling the situation than the othei), be
must be allowed to designate the transaction by a
term, which, although opprobrious, was established
Parliamentary language, and call it a plain, down-
'right, unequivocal job ! (Hear, hear, and laughter).
H the slightest attention was to he paid by Ministers
to economy or decorum, the Public had a right to
expect, in this instance at least, a real reduction.—
As to the inquiggenupon which the Noble Lord laid
so much stress, it was not called fur ; enough was
already known upon the subject. The whole argu-
ment of the Noble Lord was indeed manly, as it
went to say, that the question must be pissed by,
or the Government would find itself greatly embar-
rassed; but one point was worthy of observation.
—The Noble Lord had spoken of the inconvenience
likely to arise from the inequality of votes in a divi-
sion of the Court in case the number of Barons was
four, which inconvenience could not take place under
the preser.t arrangement. But surely the number
which answered for the business of the Exchequer
in England, might satisfy Scotland. Where were
the very important questions ever mooted in the
Scotch Exchequer? Mare numerous and more com-
plicated questions were disposed of in the Erg:ish
Court of Exchequer, yet four Barons were sufficient
here. The latter was also a Court of Equity and a
Court of Common Law. But if there did happen to
arise a question iu the Scotch Exchequer which di-
vided the four Barons, nothing cottld be more tally