Star.
London, England, 1803-03-12 00:00:00

AUGMENTATION OF THE VATr.

,1 Thealioule having refolved itfelf into a Corh-
a mittee of Supply,
. Mr. GARTHSHORN. moved, that to,ooo feathen,
. including 2400 marines, be voted for the lea vice
, of his Majehy for eleven months.
, . Mr. FRANCIS began by obferving, that at this
•j tune, the Rate of the country was such, as to re.
quire the moll ferious and attentive confideration.
, It would Rill) be proper to confider oft flu:. rneans.
by which it was brought to this Rate, and the per '
fons who were iiillrumental in doing At. He could
have wiflied, that the reColution I tr voting an ael-
. drefs to his Majelly on a former night had palled
at once by one unanimous acclamation, and not
produced any debate, which mint be liable to mil.
conlirut2ion in foreign countries, and from which
no advantage whatever refulted ; for in the end,
the Houle was not better informed than before
the debate began. He conceived he hail a right'
to enter into the prefent fubjeet, becaufe he had
up to this time given all his confidence to his Ma.
, jetty's Ministers. When the Preliminaries of Peace
had been figned, he partook in the iiniverfal re-;
, joicing which took place in the country ; he felt
, I himfelf under obligations to Ministers for having a
1 at length relieved the ccuntry from the preffirre of .
war. When the terms were made known, they i
I were liable to very great objeCtions; but although a
1 he did confider the terms as diladvantageons for 1
this country, yet they were not to be compared to
the dangers of continuing the war : fach as they !
were, they did not amount to a greater price than'
the objet was worth, becaufe they delivered us
from the horror, always attending a flare of !Lai- 1
I lity. Jn hi; mind, neither the public no; the Par- ,
I liament had much right to enquire into the terms
of the peace. The making of that peace was the
exercife of thofe prerogatives veiled by our Con-
Ilitution in the Executive Government, which had I
• the right of peace and of war; and if any perfons I
thought
1 it WAS injurious to the country, they could
only move for the punifhment of thofe perfons
who were the confidential advifcrs of his Majefty
I on the occafion, if they had betrayed the intcrefts
of their country; the country was, therefore,
I bound to agree in what had been done. Ile would
l now alb, Whether, after all the facrifices we had
made, we had gained our object ? He would an-
Aver that we had not. We got a hollow peace,
' and a certain war. He eontended, therefore, that ;
on the prefent occafion, Come explanation mint be I
given ; the country demanded, and would not he 1
satisfied without it. Neither that Houfe nor the ;
1 country wanted, at this time, to hear any plirafes ,
1 recommending harmony and union among them;'
there was no occation to tell the people to I e
united. Ifan aggreflion should take place, there I
was not a fubjeil in the United Kingdom., who
waauld not untie, heart in band, in refilling it.—,
' Why would they do fo ? becaufe they were E.ag- ,
Itthmen—becaufe they were Scorchmen—and, he-;
caufe they were Irishmen. If nlinnters, then,'
withed for the Itipport and confidence of the peo-
ple, they mutt give them information. Until they
thew that their former conduct has been wife, firm,
and vigilant, the Houk was not now at liberty to
continue that confidence it had hitherto afforded
them. Tae Houfe was now railed upon to hip-
port the Minifter without any kind of explanation
Phe Honfe was called on that day to vine for an
Approbation on the conduit of Mininers without
fufficientilaplanation. The Mininer was bound,
by a manly explanation of his condat, to Mew
that the events which now interelted every body,
did not happen through his means. If this was
not done, the country would be ditheartened.—
There was another cireurnaance which, at this
time, afforded no (mall ground for terror and
alarm in the public mind ; and that was, the cir-
cumliance of all the ability, weight, and talents
of England, being at this time excluded from any
[hare in the Councils of the Executive Govern-
ment. He knew that this was generally felt out
of that Houfe. Every Member of it onght to
look' at the Intuition the country was placed in .
and endeavour to fare it. If the fhip was to fink
every man of them mull gn to the bottom. Thefe
fentiments were strongly imprelfed on his mind,
and lie was forced to speak out what he thought
and felt. They were not taken up !niftily, hut
arofe out of long reflation, and an anxious clan-
cern for the Rate of his country. . • ,
The CHANCELLOR of the EICHIVIR, in reply, a
(poke to the following purport :—.6, I think it my
' duty, Sir, on the prefent occafion to follow the a
fame courfe which I thought it expedient to pur- I
fue when the motion for the Addrefs to his Ma- a
jelly was under confideration. I then (fated. that a
wider the prefent circumliances any explanation a
was what I conceived the Houle had no rcafon to , I
expel ; and to this opinion I Rill adhere. At pre- I ,
fent I rife folely with the view of animadverting 1
very fhortly on the obfervations which the Hon. i
Gentleman has made with the view of Mewing the . I
necetlity of explanation. I confers that the ar!tii. ' a
ments which the Hen. Gentleman ufed in fay Our ! I
of the propriety of explanation, appeared to me, ' a
and I believe that they appeared in die fame light ; I
to the Houle, totally incontinent with the with , '
which he profeffed %ellen lie fct out, that the Ad i
drefs had been carried without any comment at
all. I leave it to him to reconcile this opinl.al ~sith ;
die fentiments which he has on the prefttA occa. I
fion expreffed. The Honourable Gentleman pro- I
fe(Tes a defire that nothing which tell from him,
might be confidered as defly,ned to &limb the
unanimity which prevailed when this lubjeCt v:as
formerly before the Houle. Now, Sir, I all:, if
prudential reafons citified which rendered any ex-
-1 planation inexpedient on a former evening, whe-
ther, riding on the fame principle, his to ajeny's
Minifters ought now to give that explanation ? if
in the one cafe it was politic and expedient that con-
cealment fhould be obferved, it 1-. impoilible for '
any Gentleman to thew that the fame caufec did I
not operate with equal force. The Honourable I
Gentleman, Sir, has laid, that at a crifis when we I
may be called upon to contend for our very &ft, '
once as a nation, it is a matter of deep regret that
the whole ability of the country are excluded,from
his Majesty's Government. I will readily allow,
for mytelf, and I believe I may take upon me
' to make the avowal for soy colleagues in

offlcfei that we feel in din- to moft extent the d:f.
• ficult and :arduous duties ‘: hich v.e Ate called uron
to perform, and are
we owe to tde country for Oa ir rltte performanra,
This, Sir, may be awry fait of obfera,a;on
to the Honourable Gentle:ram ; tro I may be al.
lowed to all:, on %bat rinciplc it is that this C:7.
tleman, who tells the Houfe &filially, that a Mi.
. Mary enjoyedLis con idence from which the whore
ability o, tl.e country is excluded, Zooid now
iog War d again a Oirtli the clurge of
nets and incapacity I is a fort of cc:aimt
which I leave d.e Hon.:arable Gentleman fgtic.
fadorily to eapiaia t.: thf: Pottle. I leave it
him to explain the reafons tOr withdrawing tEe
confidence which lie forme,ly repofed. Ott t!li;
part of the Hon. Gentleman's Teeth r Omit n-t at
prelent farther enlarge, hut proceed to m
remarks on fo:ne otaer obfervations which h.: .7.1
deiced. The Hononrable Member laid down the:
principles by which the declaration of peace or tea-
is regulated with accuracy and preciti m. By the
Conftitution of this Country this declaration is
wifely made to reit with the Chief Magillyate. if,
however, a peace incrinfitient with national 110.
nour and Ilifety is concluded, I admit moll uric-
' qtrivocally with the Honomable Gentleman, that
his Majtlly'sconfidential servants are deeply reiPon.
tible fo: the advice which they have given to their
Sovereign. The Honourable Gentleman has ap.
plied the general doirine to the prefent lituatioit
of the country, and he has argued, that if by the
mit:condo& of Ministers the country has been
brought into its prefent perilous lunation, thee are
deeply and ferioulty refponfible for this fituatio:..
To this fentiment I am hound explicitly to aticr:,
and I have no difficulty in raying, that if it can he
Ihewn that his Majeny'S Minillers have loft fight
of the motives which induced them to recommend
to his Majefly the conclufion of the treaty
peace Which the Honourable Gentleman himteif.
though in qualified terms, has applauded ; it ::
can be proved tlatt any of the principles whiz]:
they have. hitherto declared to be the guides
their confine: have been departed from, then I v.-I:
allow to the Eon. Gentleman that they have bc.a
guilty of a very ferioos violation of their duty to
the Houfe and to the Country. • But, Sir, aver
that that Rep has not been taken by me or my
colleagues in office ; that no advice has been given
refpeding the difenfflons now depending betwixt
the two Govertnnews,which did not originate frau
the moil ardent desire of paeferving:the peace, sod
which was founded ia the tree fpiri.t of peace. It
is, Sir, with die lime views that Minittersthoupht
it their da:y to recommend to his Majelly to tend
to Parliament the MJragc on which the pretest
motion is founded. It was folely with the view of
giving the greater probability to the continuance
of peace that additional preparations have been
recommended. In there preparations Minilters
looked forward to the molt likely means of bring-
foe; tire points in difpute to an amicable adjuat-
naent. The Hon. Gentleman, however, infilis on
the right of the Houle to explanation. I do net
mean, Sir, at all to difpute the ultimate right of
the Houfe to a full and! air explanatieti on thit fah.
jee. This right I -have already over and (Tee
again fully admitted. I do contend. Istrecvo4,
that the Houk have not a conititutinesal4-igist to
demand explanation at Attie:meat tarn melana-
tion effeetinfig Ojoq'tbib ihdAsigWittile.k
do cerement ailitedirireepealthert 4WmWboaa.
It is clear that if Ifiniders ware ei:Or trtyield
this call for explanation, they raighttAfti
portant advantages refulting Cross ontseioliient •
aid at the fame time give no fatisfadtion.
points on which different Members tegnimezets:
nation are various and difcordanr. One Member
fay., let us not hazard a 'war, and therefore let
Ministers (hew us that their fyltelin is conciliates*.
Another party are afraid of too much concedlok
and nothing will fatisfy them but a full esphri47
don, to prove that the national honour has asst
been compronnifel What advantage, tfietts is
to be derived from explanation, and fneh contra-
riety of opinirn, while, on the other hand, the in-
conveniencies ofexplanation under the prefenteir-
cumGances are obvious? It mutt be clear that
when negociations are pending which have given
rife to co ntirlerable disputes, if they are brought
to an amicable adjullment, this can only be ac-
col:opined by concefriuns on the one Gde or the
other. Ia& then, Sir, would it be prudent that
the nature of thefe coneeffmns (horrid, in the pre-
fent Sage of the bufinefs, he explained ? I believe
that a great majority of the Houfe think with me.
that fuch an explanatino world he highly inexpe-
dient. From what I n.w fay I beg, however,that
no inference may be &awn to countenance the idea
that Miniders have contented, or will confront, to
any improper concellions. My obfervatinns refer
folely to the prudential confederations which wuold
in the prefent circumftances, render any explana-
tion highly impolitic and diradvautageous. As to
the motion now before the Committee, the Hon.
Gentleman does nut object to it. He gives it his
cordial acquiefcence. He even goes fo far as to
fay, that the number of seamen propofed to be
voted If 1.! been greater, he fhould have givan the
o
m tioi, hi. tupport. His only obieCtion is f:".inded
on Lite want et explanation, which, 'a think, has
been tatisfadorily (hewn to be ines4sedient at ti .e
relent moment. I repeat what t have ahead,
m'.re than once diftin&ly Sate that I hold my-
fell deeply relponfible for
comic which hfa
Majefly's confidential fee *ants have thought it
proper
to adopt, but never (hall I deviate from the
principles which I ha ie laid down on this fubjea.
I troll it tsrll ultimr,tely
of ;i tither the lecurity of the country will not be
endan sees!, I rights be found that in thehands
curtailed, or its honour ful-
lied. I um', that it will be found that no coned-
lions hay; been made, which they will not be able
fully to, luttity by the combined &fire of preferv-
tug veace and fupporting the honour and the lade-
Peadence of the country. I know, Sir, that to
:erne Gentlemen this language may excite difgnff..
But if the period than ever come,which Goo grant
it never may, as it would involve the renewal of
'hollilities; if ever that time come, I hope the
conduit of Minifters will Rand fully jullified.-.
Whatever may be the refult of this; whether Geo-
' tletten Gall or Gull not be fatisfied with fuels

0

I

planation as maybe then given,‘l am ready totteds
every objection, rather than violate that duty which
prefcribes to me the impropriety of affording any
explanation of matters now in di/puce betwixt the
two Governments.
Mr. DENT obferved, that in the late war we
had upwards of 130,000 men engaged in our fea
fervice. The peace enablifluitent had reduced the
number to so,ooo. The Right Hon. Gentleman
oppofite (athveoteehoafnicoellor ofeathvienEg xuesheaqnue icra)bi had
propofed
snot of fro,ooo. Now he &mid propofe, that
inilead of to, we fhould have..2s,ooc.,•which would
give us a naval force of 75,000. This, lie fup-
pored, would be fully fufficient for any common
' exigency, and he would with Minifters and the I
country to be fafe beyond all poffibility of doubt.
As to the expreflion, GOD grant that period may
r:vcr arrive I" ufed by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, he thought it liable to contiderable
objedion. With refped to the outcry raired again!"
this armament, and the confequent effed on the
public funds, in his opinion the monied men had
reafon to complain, if property fell to per cent.
Be had heard various reports as to the ponibility
of what was the caufe of thefe difcuUions and
thefe armaments. Whether the objed was Malta,
or whether it was Egypt, he did not with to pry
into the nature of there objects which Milliners had
thought fit not to difclofe. He thought them en-
titled to his confidence, and gave it accordingly.
There was one point, however, which he could;
not help lamenting, that was, that we had now
come to the eve of -war, when we had given up
almon every conquers, and we had returned fere.
ral thoufands of feamen to France, and, as far as
he could learn, not a farthing of money had as
yet been paid by their Government to ours. In
the fallen conviEtion of the propriety of the mea-
fure, and of the jußice of its application, he thould
conclude with moving the amendment he had al-,
ready mentioned, namely," That inftead of t 0,000
we infer" 25,000 feamen and marines in the vote
now upon the table."
Mr. Fox—" I cannot help feeling Come degree
of fuprife at the language which my Hon. Friend
who began the difcuffion, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman over the way have tired, refpeding the
converfation which took place on the motion for
the Addrefs, on which the prefent proportion is
founded. I myfclf certainly began that JP:cotton,
but I do not feel that I was guilty of 'bringing
out from any one Gentleman who (poke a tingle
fentiment or expreffion which could produce a
feeling of rancour or animofity in France, in this
country, or any other part of Europ':. My Hon.
Friend is unwilling to negative the prefent motion,
though he is (ferrous of an explanation of the
grounds on which it is propofed, and the Right
Hon Gentleman is fsirprifed that this explanation
is demanded, when my Hon. Friend expreffes his
reaclinefs to vote for even a much larger number
of Icemen, if fuck a number were neeetfary to the
public fervice. I am. Sir, as ready as any Mem-
ber to vote for the propofed addition of feamen,
on the principle that they are neceffary for the
public fervice ; but I have at prefent no better
ground for my vote than if as,ooo, ioo,ooo, or
any ocher number of additional feamen had been
propofed. My oblation refts on this plain, confti-
entional ground, that as Reprefentatives of the
People in the proper difeharae of our &tin we
have a right to have the ma's of thefe increafed
preparations explained, and not be called upon to
-vote on the unlitnited confidence which we chute
to repo* for a time in Minillers. I have always
underflood that the prerogative of the Crown to
conclude a peace was clear and undifputed, am; I
can have no difficulty in agreeing with the feuti
menu which my Hon. Friend entertains on this
point. I certainly do agree with him, that thole
who have cnunfelled his islajelly to conclude any
peace, am refpottfible for the merit of the terms of
that peace, and are liable to cenfure if they appear
incontinent with the national honour and fatety.
I cannot, however, allow, that after the peace has
been concluded, and after its terms have been can•
vatted and approved, that if circumnances occur
which render the continuance of peace impoffiblc,
Milliners are to be neceffarily accufed of having.
by their cnndua, produced thefe circumnances.—
With refpeEt to his Maje Sty's right of declaring
war, there was as little doubt in theory, but in
prnClice a very important diitindion exiSted. In
this declaration might be involved every principle
of a free Conflitution, every thing connected with
the property, nay. the very exigence of the fub-
jed. The Sovereign might be ill advifed, and ex-
perience had fully proved that this is not merely a
',fable cafe. The country might be plunged in-
to a war, of which it was impoffible to fce either
the equity or the necefllty. It might be continued
againft the will of the Parliament or the People,
and the whole, or part of every man's property
might be wrefted from him, if in practice this pre•
rotative of the Crown was carried to all the extent
which theory fuppofed. But, Sir, fuch a con-
Itrudion of the prerogative Strikes every one in a
moment as monflrous, and while in theory we
admit the power of the Sovereign to declare war,
in practice and in fubflance we pollifs the privilege
by which alone that declaration can be carried
into 'Weft. This privilege is founded in the means
we p ides of giving or withholding the need:try
lupplics. This, Sir, has an operation to the pre-
vention of war to a confiderable degree, though
it is only the privilege of the park which we enjoy.
This Houk mutt therefore be neceffarily patties to
every war. • How, Sir, is this to be done t Why.
Sir, the mode of our becoming patties is Pimple.
His Majeßy in all cafes Oates to es the grounds on
which he has thought a declaration of war necef-
fary, and he calls upon. US to grant the fupplies
toceliary for the prolecutiort of this conteft. We all
know that inftances are not wanting in which the
Sovereign has been colnpelleil to rilinquiffi a war,
beFaufe Parliament. convinced of its injunice and
ru.nons effects, w".•afforded hf 1. I
longer t e upp !es.
will not here '.r.eternitne bow far the American
war was put an end to by the voice of Parliament
—but ther: is one Rriking inStance in which a war
put an end to by the esercife of this contlitu-
ti,una_f. power, and that was the inßance in which
wc• ratimulettt of Charles the Second, compelled

that Prince to relinquif% the ar.cl7l---var. Now,'
Sir, how does the cafe (land at po•it ot ? and here
I will tea my argument. We I.new that in prac-
tice armaments precede any .dtici..l-tu. tmunication
from the Throne, or any vole of ftipient ; and 1
huh that, if danger really exists, iirmat. Jews are
now going on with a rapidity emit cfpunde tt to the j
emergency on which they ant founded. cer-
tain effed of the vote is only co make os direct
parties to arty war to which tit:rearmaments may I
he applied. \Vhat I objeel te, then, is tioallei
that I have heard no grounds hated to jullify -I,lr
extraordinary preparation ; and, therefore, I mita, I
nn conflitutional principles, enter my protet
againft the mode of proceeding which has been
adopted. The cafe of the Rutliae armament is
one in which many perfons were detirous to ;endue
a courfe limiter to that now prnpofed to be adopt.
ed ; but I do not think that when the confequences
of that armament are considered, that the proceed
ings then adopted will be very likely to encourage
imitation. I hope, Sir, I may be allowed to rear
fon hypothetically relpeding the independence of
Parliament in granting kipplies for carrying on
any war. I trust that we are not neceffarily to be
conflantly guided by a fpirit of humble docility,
though our independence may appear more clearly
in theory, than in any cafes of mode.n or recent ex-
perience.' In whatever we clinic to ex,:reife our
contlitutional right, the potribility of its exercise
will not be ditputed. Poffibly we might think that
negotiation was preferable at a moment when
Minilters had plunged the country in war ; or, on
the other hand, we might fuppofe, that meafures
of a more vigorous defcription would have done
much more for the national honour than any ne
gocietion ; and how is our opinion to be exprelfed,
except in withholding the fupplies, before we hind
ourfelves to become parties to a war ? I there-
fore, Sir, for one, contend again)) the Hanle of
Commons being a mere echo, a mere docile re-
ceiver of whatever •communication Mtnhteri may
think proper to make under the form of a Meffige
from the Throne. Ido nut with to flatter Mini-
(lets when I fay, that I believe that the prepare
lions which have been recommended are founded
on a firm and bonen convidion of their expediency.lll,
I wiil notfuppote that they would willingly ,end with-
out reference to any one objed of advantage, take
tuch peps if they did not i magine that they were oral.
tial to the interells of the country. Their interell,
as well as their character, equally forbid me to
fuppofe, that in this :Rance they are deceiving the
Houk or the Public. This I have no difficulty in
hating generally, though I muit add, that hollances
of the guilt, to which I have now alluded, are not
entirely unknown. But let Gentlemen recoiled
that with the bell intentions iii the world, Mini.
hers are liable to error, and that whet they con.
ceive to be wife and politic, might, if explained,
appear unwise and inexpedient.—This. I mull only
fay, that we are totally without all means of form-
ing any judgment. In the Melfage of his Majelly,
or in the fpeech of the Right Hon. Gerriemen,
there is not a fingle word hated by which I can
venture to form any opinion of the points in difpute.
A good deal has been laid, Sir, with the view of
(hewing, that if a rupture fhould take place, it
would be only the natural refult of the Treaty of
Amiens. Now, Sir, I am one of thofe who hold a
very different opinion, and without hefitatinn I fay.
that if war does now take place, there is no need'.
fity for fuppofing that it has the (lighten connec-
tion with that Treaty, or that this was a Treaty
not fit to be concluded. I thought, and I have
ken no reafon to alter my opinion, that the treaty
of Amiens was an eligible treaty ; not eligible
compared with other treaties, that under other cir.
cumtlanees might have been formed, but eligible
is freeing the country from a molt dal udive war.
Are we to be told, Sir, that Minihers dare make no
peace, becaufe the unreafonable ambition of France
may now drive us to the renewal of hoftilities ?
Are we to be told, that we were to wage warfare
till we had obtained a fetisfadory affurance on the
part of the enemy, of a fincereidefire to cultivate
all the bleffings of tranquillity in the true fpirit of
peace? No reasonable man will, I believe, hold fn I
extraordinary an opinion, as that which I have now
hated. It may be further urged againll Minillers,
that (tote the conclufion of peace, they have (hewn
too much forbearance, that they have .toed ton
much in the fpirit of ccmceflinn. How far this
charge is true, I have no means. of determining,
though there appears no reafon to conclude that
' their difpofition to conciliation, has gone beyond
a commendable defire i n preferve the peace. If
they have been guilty oi" filch forbearance or con-
celion, as has in the fmal left degree compromized
the honour or fafety of den country, unqueftion-
ably their condua has bee.l highly criminal, butt
this is no confequence of their having concluded
the Treaty of Amiens. But, .rsir, perhaps, we areto be told, that it was impolitic to make peace till
we had a vigorous adminiftrati sn to support it.
I certainly do not think that want of vigour in an
adminiftretion, is a fufficient rest on for not enter-
, ing into a war, if a legitimate cat .fe of war exists.
As an objedion to the cnnclufinrt
of peace, it is
one of the molt ridiculous and in conclufive that
ever was brought forward. If Mini flees have con-
ceded too much, or done too little for the fupport
of the honour of the country, they' have ineurred
a very great ref;aonfibility; but let e!ot this be laid
to the charge of else Treaty of Amiens. If lam
fond of that treaty, it is becaufe it was the means
of ridding us of inettrobrances of the inoft oppr.er
five kind. Nut that it freed us from connetitton
with allies, for allies we bad none at the time it
was concluded, bur rls et it delivered us from the
deteftable and ebominati le principles on which the
late war was concluded. Ido fincerely hope. Sir,
that we hear nothing more of wan under
taken for religion and finel order. I (peak not
diliefpedfully of religion or of the bleffings of fo-
etal order, bat I fpeale of ti'iat deteltabk by.poerify
which held forth tbefe as n'ee oftenfible atolls of
cnnteft, while we were a long fighting for ends
of a nature totally different and oppofite. I be-
lieve that fuch hypoerify is far j
ever delfro Ted.; and
I trull that as long as a feneiment of u Uwe, as
infamous
deception as a deteftatron of fuck bale and
deception be reprobated among men, luck at.
tempts to impok oak a generous biopic ilea it bs

held in eternal execration. if thlrortutr,tell,
we are to be doomed to a rer.eival of holl:lstirfs, I
hope that the obje& of the •var
and dittinfily underfteod. What
which may eventually head to slid: f•if tu..fo;
refult, I mid; to be totally ~r
they z fer to the poireffiou of 'l.flt.t, the s-
cion of Alexandri.t, or whatever
etifiion they involve, I have no ine.t.fs ,• a..;,,.
an opinion. I (hall jolt fay generai!y, t*, I: I eff;
national rights are involved, ilattcrapts have
made to lower that rank which we have hezn ae-
cullomed to hold among the Rates:ff. En, 0;. c, and
all attempts at amicable adjunment hive: 11601,
then I have no difficulty in fayim. that a w:tr un-
derniken under Inch circumaances wott!l be jolt.
Of the necellity and policy of fuel' a war no man
can sfi,r a moment doubt. But, Sir, I know it is
laid to at it is necelfary tohold out to the People tome
oftenlible objc of war beyond what is the real oh-
jeA of counclt—without this load language the ra-
tional entholiiiim cannot be animated. This I hold
to ha a very blue and a very pernicious doctrine. If
a war is s tally necelrary, I am convinced that no
meafure of this fort need be retorted to to animate
the national fpirit. Falfe pretenfinns and
hh li-
founding words do not appear to me to be likely
to :sounde the energies of o people. Nothing, in-
deed, in my conception, fit much dispirits a people
called upon to make great exertions, as innorance
of the precife object of ecntell ; and this igno-
rance was, I am fully perfnaded, one of the
leading caufes of the evils which the late ealami-
' tous contra entailed on the country. After the
experience of thefe calamities, no on! v'ould fur e.
ly wilh to go to war for a light objeft. On this
point I 'hall ['peek in very plain teams. If war
is for great national objens, then I
am convinced it will be fultained with a chine
rponding national energy, but at all events let :hat
of.j4t lie fairly and fully dehined. Do not la ns
again involve the country in the fume ralarnifies
which the want of a fpecifie ohjla has Aire: dy
trade us In feverely experience. It was the want
of this fpecitic objet which made the people cn!,.!
and unintcnnkd through a groat part of the late
conteii, lit I.:r as events on the Continent scare
cone frned, though loyal and tin Inimons in the de
hence if: the cnial:r). I hape and trill then, that
before Milliners call on us to be parties in ano.l4r
war, they will fairly explain the circumflanees
which have given rife to it, and the objeEls for
which it is bra,tin. The Right Hon. Gentleman
riPpolite has laid a great deol cf the rerponfibi:ity
which attaches to Minitters front their prefent
condinft, and in this I fully agree with him. He ;
has Paid fomethiog of the reproach which he may
have to encounter for too great liberalfry of c, n
cation. On this point allow m- ;nit tar exprers
my confiden e, that he will never he induced, by
any fear of reproach, to abandon fyllem of con
ciliation fo long as it is confillent with honour,
and promiics to I:aci to an amicable reftea. I will
not readily he accord nf endeavouring to inflo-
ence Minitters to go ta the oppolte extreme. But
while lam the advocate of conciliation, I (boll
never be the apologilt of difhonnur. My Hon.
Friend has fpoken of the prefent Government
as excluding die whole ability of the kingdom.
On this point I wifh not at prefent to enter.
—But I may be jolt permitted to fay, that in
the profped of war, with loch a man as Earl St.
Vincent at the head of the Board of Admiralty,
there would be little reafon to dread the want of
fuitable preparation, and the Cigna! naval triumphs
of the late war :afford ns the belt grounds to hove
for future faccefs. Of the merits of our land forces,
no man thinks more highly than I do. lam no
military man myfelf, but forming my judgment
on the opinion of thole belt quatined to fpeak on
this fobjedt, I believe that we have officers equal
in (kill and in courage to any officers in Europe.
Of our troops, my opinion is not lefs favourable.
I am convinced that in any coma in which they
might be called upon to engage, they would be ,
found fully to flippant the cliataacr which thee
have fo lona:maintained. Ot. what then flinuld I
be afraid in the event of the renewal tf war ? Of
fubjugat:ron to France ! the idea ranlyft, for a mo-
ment, be indulgea. When, h wever, I conhider
the many vulnerable points in our situation, when
I take a view of the whole hate of the empire,
when I look even to our financial refaurces, the ,ugh
in Tome points of view their appearance is flounth-
ing ; when I take all theft thiaas into confidera•
Lion, I cannot think of the renewal of war but as a
aloft grievous calamity. Though for years we
Ihould on every oecalion be fuecefsful—though
every expedition ftiould be crowned with glory,
Rill prolongation, even of a fuccefsful conteft, could
not but be infinitely calamitous. The Hon. Mem-
ber, after a few more remarks, concluded by de-
claring that he ffiould not vote againft die motion."
Mr. Femmess begged the permiffion of the Com-
mittee that he might explain the fentiment which
had fallen from him in the courfe of his former
fpeech, and which had been alluded to by the Ho.
nourable Member who (poke lan. He certainly
did fay, that " the whole ability of the Nation
was excluded from its Councils ;" bat at the fame
time that he fah) this, he wifhed it to be nn•
del-flood that he entertained the higheft re(peul for
both our army and our navy; it was not only the
Noble Lord (St. Vincent) to whom his Honour-
able Friend had alluded : but he was convinced
that there were many, very many men of the firft
ability in the country engaged in both thefe de-
partments. He therefore did not intend that they
lhould, by any means, be included in that general
ups-el:Goo.
Mr. Sivaitouous declared, that he thought it an
outrage ei.n the Conftitution for any Gentleman to
demand or !require any explanation at the prefent
etifis. Minh:tees ought not, under the prefent cis
eumftances, to ffifclofe any information which, in
eonfequenee of their official capacity, they might
be poffeffed of; was contrary to their duty to
Ido In. Other Ger, tlemen might entertain their
particular . to the meafure now before
th fiou ;obbjeutft.ifoinirs
part, be thought it fit and
fe
proper to attend to the w ords of his brajelty's Mel
Page. It Rated that great armaments were going
on in the ports of France and Holland, and that
at the tame Was impatient • iikaSoas are going on

the

10!I Teen g,v;•rnirntra errs.
cocontl tnr Lc thought it oor tloty to ;,tnl ,ti
4111.1 tt,- ••31!..! I 01. •••,,e,-)0 ',ie.) : .
vL, , f;, !,•, r'•?;
. r•-o•cc
th, c, 1 •
!! • A.

.;

•ler., • .' 't

the n t ti:at ahro,, ! CIO
war w.p, cLit t". 11; I..it ftppif
he was role:11y fatkEcd, 311.1 be t! ..
,rounds for co!-.fid.:r.:e
I.t.e they ...re not .lifrfed to le tve. ti:e res t f tit:a
c :antry, or of Ireland, in a defcm..lc;.,iate.
w..:e 11,1 now engacteti, the liono.:1,11.
mae ftid, in aanarholiiiitics, bot it we were, mc
hid this confolation, tit tt svc were not fallen alt.!
deztadci as other nations were ; we w;.le tti;. in
a lati.tCort capable of exettion fajicient to tell}
tita ambition or the bafeoels of any ner,:-;1,01,r,
h)wcrer powerful they might be. Li: !h tdd now
conclude with giving hii moll hearty aii:nt to
the vote upon their table.

Lord ii.twicEstvrtv 1p01..7e to the rmowin,. cf-
. feet I pertieMy agree with the Hon. G
man wl.io 1.20 he !aft, in the di:lin:ion which helots
drawn is iih reed to his N'lljeity's pretoc,iaiive in
making p ace and declaring war, but 4lthe?iyh,
the .iiltint.ion as (lazed by the I-lon. Gentleman.
is uiu!e:iiable in the point of view in which he t.
pi i eJ it, I beg leave to obferee that ti ere is
very material ditrerence with leg :ad to the (lace=
lion of war, both in it; origin and c.inicipicnci.s.
tr tm that of peace. The King's ptern2.trive con-
icr,, i grant, on his Majaly the rigilt o.t ,iecl.tr-
ingi war, but tliLn tine,e is veiled in Parliament a
praaical n-:ga:ivc, that cordlitutional and filutary
check anti contri,til which goes to render fruiticfs
and unay.tiliag Cie declaration of war. That this
prerorathr i eiretiiial to the interel of the aate,
n perfon will undertake to deny; but the ecercife
of it matt' be defeated by the power which this
/lode vlieft.s, ver 'ln.{ in its wifdom thof_ fin-
pl;rc are +-en pi-est-motion of ha.
ail ;?:s. otec.r, le: me %ma, k.
it i. abfolute!y neceffai y Parliament Ihovld have
itthmiced to thdr intielEgAtfon, every dm:mete
and paper calcul iced to conecy to them ;::e infor-
m itiiin on which in reality thrir conturtence with
the executive p wet- funded. They fhcalti
be fupplied with every poffible information before
they consent to grant the fupplies thee may be
cailcd upon to vote. In nich a cafe, it is °lesions
di it no inc invenience cnn arise from pro icing
tic information which Governmeni 1 1
f trill, as the communication itfelf is grounded
open the principle of enabling t :e ...poase
of the ezi.e,,incy fpringingfroni tile i!ors
laid before it. But in the cafe of •• all
points are amicably adjulled, where every quellion
which had been previnufly agitated and dircuiled
with perhaps great zeal on both fides, is fuppofed
to have been finally adjufled, there is a very
material difference limn the cafe of
‘Nriten peace is once made, and all difputes are.
by the re eflablithment of the relations of amity.
let at refl. a mop fcriuua inconvenience might
refult to one or to all the powers who had
made peace, were a full difelofure of all the
circa antes previous to the definitive coeds.
Pion o it to take place. With refpeo to any ad.
vaatage which could be derived from fuck a cont.,
muni.:ation—l mean that of entering into all the
details of negotiation, I waft, gentlemen are con-
vinced none can poffibly occur. The nature of the
information to be given mull then depend upon the
peculiar circumflances of the cafe :. but altiningn
the Houfe of Commons ought to be in poffeffion of
every jug and fatisfailory degree of information,
before it fanOions the declaration of war by the
vote of fupplies, the queflion is extremely different
with regard to the vote the Committite is now
called upon to give. The only queßion is, who.
titer, in the cafe of armaments preparing in the
ports of other countries, and during the coolie of
important negotiations, the Houle is bound to
call for any explanation on the fubj:6l: and gibe.
Cher great inconvenience might not refult front
doing Co ? A difference has indeed been made by
i the Hon. Gentleman, of the Houfe having pledgsd
ilfelf, by giving a vote on the occalion of the Rull
Tian armament. He does not, however, Teem to
recolleft the drift of his own reafoning on that
fabjea, when it was ditto ;fed. There ;was, Sir,
allow me to obferve, nothing at that time in dd.*.
;rite between RufGa and the Porte, which could
affen, in a flight degree, the fafety of this coun-
try, or of any of his Alajelly's dominions. The
armament then voted, was one for political pur-
poles, with no immediate reference to the extras
of holtilities ; and the Hon. Gentleman at that
I time admitted, there was nothing in the state of al:
faits which could affect our fecurity. Yet I will al.
low that even then the Houfe might be confillent in
demanding information in the fief inflance,becaufe
!the question of war eventually came under confide.
ration. But now the cafe is very different ; for we
have to contemplate,not a remote,but a neighbour.
ing Power, which is preparing conliderable naval
armaments; and, what cannot pats unnoticed,foch
armaments on the part of that Power, have al.
ways pi oved either alarming or dangerous to this
country. It has frequently happened to this coun-
try in former times, that a naval armament, fit•
ting out in the poets and harboui s of France. with.
out any avowed objea, have jußified the Exe,:n.
Live Government to arm. But when with theta
armaments, announced as they are in his Majcity's
Melfige, are combined important difcuhlons
filing between his M:jeity and the Government
of Fiance, which may, for I merely speak of poi.
fibllities, ultimately lead to the renewal of hortili-
ti!s, I think I do not go too far in laying, the
Houle can feel no difficulty in agreeing to the
precaiitionary meafures which are this night pro.
p.ried far their adoption. It is important, and I
beg to call the attention of Gentlemen to the re.
mark, that the I loufe should feel the prefent ref's.
lutinn merely as a precautionary meafure, to which
it is the duty of the Executive Government to
have recourfe. I affute this Hon. Gentleman,
that his Majefly's Minillers do not defire that
MOST CODfidence lhould be reputed ia them, them