Star.
London, England, 1816-05-29 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS:

An Account was presented of the Fines imposed on Parishes
in Ireland for Ilheit Distillation. Ordered to lie on the 'fable,
and to be primed.
There was also laid before the How an Account of the im-
ports and Exports from and to Canada and the West India
Islands, together with an Account of the Tonnage of the Ship.
ping employed in Trade to obese Colonies. Ordered to lie on
the Table.
Mr. W. BURRELL presented a Petition from the Wool
Growers of the South Downs, in the County of Sussex, praying
for the free exportation of Wool. Reid, and ordered to tie on
the Table.
Sir H. PARNELL pee notice that next Session he would
move that the free export etion of Wool should be allowed.
Sir R. PEEL presented the Report of the Committee respect.
ing the employment of -Children in Manufactories. It was or-
dered to be printed.
A Petition was presented front the Growers of Wool in the
County of Glamorgan, praying thai leave might be given to ex-
port Wool duty free. Read, .ind ordered to lie on the Table.
Mr. ROSE presented the Report on the state of Mendicity in
the Metropolis, and stated that it was the completion of the la-
bours of the Committee, whose first Report had been *presented i
last year. The Right Honourable Gentleman entered into an I
explanation of the mode in which the Committee had conducted
their inquiries, and concluded by moving that the Report' should
be Printed. Agreed to.
Mr:NEVILLE presented a Petition from the Victuallers and
others, inhabitants of the Borough of Reading, complaining of
the monopoly of public-houses by brewers and distillers ; also
praying for relief from the heavy Duty imposed upon Licenies.
Ifrad, and 'ordered to lie on the Table.
'Mr. ROSE presented the Report.of the Committee on Mad-
Houses, and obtained leave to bring in a B II pursuant to the
Report. .
Mr. D. GIDDY presented a Petition from the Victuallers of
Penzance,-praying that the additional Duty on Licenses might
be removed. Read and ordered to lie on the Table.
Lord BINNING gave notice, that early next Session he in.
beaded to move for leave to bring in a Bill to establish Public
Receptacles for Lunatics, Criminal Lunatic., and Paupers.
There was laid before the House an Estimate of the number
of Persona admitted to the British htluieunt within the last seven
years. Ordered to lie on the 'rattle.
On the motion ache CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
it was ordered that the House at its rising this night should ad-
journ till Thu. sclay. •
Mr. HART DAVIS presented * Petition from the Tanners
of-Bristol, Flying for relief ;phut the operation of certain
relltilifkins by which they conceived themselves oppressed.—
Read, and ordered to be referred to the Committee on the
Leather Tax.
Mr. CALCRAPT having presented Petitions front several
Publicans coocerning the Additional Doty on Licenses, wished
to know what measure the Right Honourable Gentleman oppo-
site loteilded to propose for their relief.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
the subject was under consideration.
Qn the motion of Mr. BANKES, there was ordered to be laid
before the Home weepy olds, Treasury Mate for abolishing
Canal* Odors in the Department, of dos Civil Lie;
SEW COINAGE.

Mr. WELLESLEY POLE appeared at the Bar
with a Message from the Palma REGINT, which was
react by the Seaducza.—(Fide Lords.)
The Message was then ordered to be referred to
the consideratgeof a Committee of the whole House.
TAUNT! MOUS&
Mr. ROSE; pursuant to his notice, rose to move
for certain Papers relating to the Trinity House.—
He stated.ihat his object in moving for these Papers
was principally for the purpose of refuting certain
Latcusatiess apes the Corporations which hail been

made b). an Honourable Get. leftists opptr.ite on a
former occasion: He then moved for an Acronnt of
the Revenue of the Trinity Corporation, and how it
was applied for the ten years hemmers 18(15 and 1815;
also an Account of the number of Alms Houses built
by the Corporation; and of the Pensio S allowed by
them ; likewise of the nu lier of Light-Houses built
by the Corporation.
Mr. BIRCH maintaleed all the charges Which he
had formerly made against the Corporation of the
Trinity House ; and produced to the House a dom.
ment proving them.
Mr. ROSE explained.
Sir W. CURTIS defended the trinity Mime
from the charges of the Honourable Gentleman,
which, he said, were perfectly unfounded: oltl
house was almost tumbling down ; on:ii by ::ie ar.
rangements made, be did not bet. ve the new build-
ing incurred An expence of more than 3 or £4OOO.
Mr. TIERNEY thought the -vindication of the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rorej was ina
tended to forestall the motion which his Honourable
Friend"( Mr. Birch) intended to found on the Papers
which were now moved for, and therefore it was a
speech quite not of time.
Mr. WA RRE said a few words at to the necessity
of looking into the mode in Which the concerns of
the Corporation are managed.
Mr. ROSE explained.
The Motion %MS then agreed to, and the Papers
were soon after prestnted to the House. Ordered
to lie on the Table, and to be printed.

AUSTRIAN LOAN.
Mr. HAMMERSLEY rose, putsuant to his no-
tice, to call the attention of the House to the large
sums due to this country by Austria. In doing so,
he was actuated by no disposition to disturb the ami;
cable relations at present subsisting between the two
nations; on the contrary, lie wished these relaticins
of amity to be cherished and strengthened. In the
first place, lie referred to the Message which had
been sent to the House in 179.5, recommending the
loan to Austria • and to the Act of Parliament for
that purpose. in that Act was contained a proviso
for securing and recovering payment of the money.
The first loan was in 179:5, to the antaunt of four
millions two hundred thousand pounds. In 1797..art*
additional sum of more than three millions. *Since
May 1797, no-totice whatever had been taken of
this debt. Nay, in the account of the public debt of
Great Britain, presented by Government to the
House, the amount of the public funds were stated.
exclusive of the Imperial loan. Why was there no
cognizance of this loan ? The fact was, it was the
debt of the Emperor, and as such admitted in every
shape. In his character as one of the Trustees for
this loan, he thought it absolutely necessary that the
House should be furnished with information on the
subject. He therefore expectel that the Noble Lnrd
.would this night make some communication as to
thisdebt ; and this he must add. that it any arrange.
pent had been made with Austria, by which this
debt was cancelled, certainly he would find that this
icountry was quite concluded. with respect to the debt,
whatever opinion he might entertain, as to the
propriety of the conduct of the Noble Lord in not
having sooner informed the House of such an ars
rangement, if any such had been made. It never
had been his opinion that the repayment of the deist
could have been expected from Austria at the time
when she was stripped, plundered, and impoverished
by France. But the fact was, that thersitttatiod ofy
Austria was noN quite changed. The, recent ar-
rangements on the Continent had left her mistress of
alarge and extensive territory. It could no longer
therefore be said, that the situation of Austria was
such that the payment could not be expected. But
if it were said that the financial situation of Austria
was one of great distress, he would say that this
financial situation of.this country was also bas., Why
WAS not such an arrangement made with Austria as
had been made with Portugal ? The latter country
'seinen our debt, the island of Madeira was as,igned •
to us until the debt Would have been discharged fro&
the revenue of that island. This was a case exactly
in point ; and he saw no reason why a similar ar-
rangement should not be made with Austria., He
concluded by moving an Address to the Prince
gent, praying that the sums advanced to Austria
should be taken into consideration, with a view to
instituting negociations for the purpose of coming to
some arrangement satisfactory to both countries.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said it would only be
necessary for him to trouble the House with a very
few observations on the present question, ache could
very shortly satisfy them, that the resent was by na
means a,proper time to enter into negociationt on the
subject. 10 saying any thing on this subject,. he
thought it highly proper for him to state, that helm-
heved it to be the sincere wish of Austria to pay off
'this debt. Indeed, the House was aware t at the
advancing this money to Austria in the shape of a
loan, was a very unusual mode of proceeding, and
had,' at the time, created a strong impression in the
country. It had latterly been found much better.to
'advance sums to foreign Powers (in cases similar to
that to which the loan now in question had been ad-
vanced) in the shape of subsidies; and Austria was
the only power to which we had ever made an ad-
vance
_in the shape of a loan. That the Austrian
Government had not yet fulfilled its eng.gemente
with respect to this money, ought to let(' to no im-
putation against the good faith of that power. There
Was no power in Europe which had more extensively
suffered from the calamities of the Frenth Revolve
tion, or that had borne them_ more manfully I nor
had Austria ever receded from the contest, except
when she was reduced to such a situation that all her
Allies allowed such a measure to be ,necessary. If
it was considered bow much she had suffered in ahem
conflicts, no man would wonder that she had not yet
been able to discharge the debt in question. The,
Honourable Gentleman alluded to the situation in.
which Austria now stood; but then it must be eon-,
sideretls that although she had certainly gained soap_
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feptisitinni in territory. her position was such ,that
dichad not yet time to apply a complete remitlY to
her financial distresses, 'He was sorry indeed to say,
that the finances of Austria were how as much de.
pressed as they had bees at any time since the be.
Finniag of the Revolutionary War, but stillthe debt
m question was 'hi no means to ly considered as ob.
!iterated. If any arrangement could be made for
the liquidation of the debt, it certainly would be very
wise to make it; but this he could say, that there
could not be a more unfavourable time than the pre-
sent for entering into any negotiation on the %Object.
It might, pethaps, be said, that the amount of the
cantributiotz id to Austria by France (which came
to "SPA sterling) ought to have been handed
to lut bn account of the debt; but. on reflection, no
man would say.that such an arrangement would have
been by any means fit on the p.e,ent . occasion. In
fact, it would have been most unwise to attempt it,
as it might have deranged the whole political arrange-
ments of the Allies, to the utter prejudice of our
most important interests. To agree to the present
motion would only be deluding the 'country. He
confidently looked for the re-establishment of the
finances of Austria, and the liquidation or .this debt,
but being convinced that no negotiation could acce-
lerate this.' but rather retard it, he felt it lis duty to
meet the present motion by moving the previous
question.
• Mr. JOHN. SMITH said he could easily under-
stand that there were many difficulties in the way. of
effecting an arrangement as to this debt during the
war ; but all these causes must now have ceased to
operate. 'The country was certainly now, entitled to
know the cause of the course pursued by the Austrian
Government. He therefore hoped the Honourable
Gentleman would divide the House upon his mo-
tion, as a sum of such an enormous amount as
5e13,000,00Q, due to us by a foreign power,-required
that every step should he taken to recover it..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
was at a loss to know haw the amount of the debt
due_by Austria could be stated at 813,000,000. The
amount of the original•advance was only 84,600,000.
It was quite unfair to state it at a larger sum than it
really wits, merely for the purpose of producing a
false. impression on the subject. No };rester proof of
the total inability of Aibtria to pay our claims could
be given than this; that since 1799, although all
parties had beau in power, no Minister had thought
prover to call upon that nation for repayment.
Mr. LAW thoin!ht that it would be estremely inn.
politic at this moment to press the palm' nt of that
debt ou Austria. We ought to do every thing to re.
store an.: coiist.ii.lite her power. She was the cen-
tral monarchy, On whose efficient strength the peace
and bsiaict of Europe depended. France was not
the Only nation to be dreaded;, Russia was equally
dangercus : and when the exposed state of the fron-
tiers of Austria was considered, the propriety of as.
stating and supporting her would be evident.
state of the Austrian finances was such that it would
take a man's whole tiff! to understand it. The Vienna
bank paper, issued at 100 florins, had been reduced
to '2O flotins, and in that state was at a depreciAtidn
of 3,50 per cent. The issues of that paper amounted
to ale million of florins, and the total of the Aus-
trian debt was lour millions of francs. He should
oppose the motion, although he did full justice to the
urtives on which it was founded.

Mr. W. SMI l'H defended the motion, which only
dirt cted Ministers to enter into some negociation to
effect an arrangement satisfactory to both countries,
and was therefore not intended to occasion any pres-
sure on Austria. The pressure on the .people of this
c•ointry was at all events much greater; and he
dNibted whether it would not he preferable for Eng-
land to look at once into her situation, and he would
not call it national bankruptcy, or consent to a re.
ductiun of the interest of the debt, instead of coati-
Ruin w pay beywid her means.
• Mr. BROUGHAM, alluding to the argument'
used by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that under
various administrations no Minister had called upon
Austria for the payment of her loan, observed, that
when Mr. Fox came into power, the circumstances of
Austria were very different from the present. It was
atter the battle of Austerlitz, and when the Austrian
Monarchy had sunk to its deepest depression. He
agreed in the policy of assisting her, and renovating
Ler force, to oppose her as a central barrier to the
aggressions of either Russia or France; but he did
not see that the motion could counteract that policy.
It would only keep alive our claim, and chew to the
people of this country and to Atis:ria that we had
not forgotten it.' He had understood that both Aus.
flan and Prussia had pledged themselves to give a
new censtiturien to the parts of Poland which re-
mained in their possession; but they had taken no
step for that purpose, whilst, to his infinite honour,
the Emperor of Russia had conferred a constitution
on liberal principles to the Polish kingdom erected
under his auspices.
Mr. HAMMERSLEY, in his reply, stated, if the
thirteen trillions lent to Auatria had been applied to
the reduction of the national debt, twenty-seven mil-
liard of it would have been extinguished in the course
of the period during which Austria; had kept our
Tame. y. He rersisted in his mctian.
Ttie House divided. Against the motion, 43.
For ft, 16.—Majotity against it, 27.

CATHOLIC CLAIM.
Sir S. cox mem LEY. in rising to make the,
motion of Which he had given notice, wished to guard
gee House against its being understood thathe should',
advocate the cause of tmancipation without preper
isecuritits. He would never concede as,a right what,
was clamed and could not be granted as such,' con-,
si.tently with the principles of the Constitution. He
then proceeded to take a comprehensive view of the,
policy and conduct of the different Synods held by
ale Catholic' Prelates, and the opinions which they
bad expressed. In 1799, they had declared, « that
t. c interference of the Crown with the nomination of
asish'ops, for the purpose of ascertaining their loyalty,
was just; and ought to take place." In ISM ano-
ther Synod had come to a very different decision,
that it was inexpedient to adopt any measure to aker,
ecclesiastical discipline. On Sus explanation being re.
(leered, they had elated that the declaration of inex-
fediency was not in opposition to, the resolution of
1799, brit that the inexpediency arose from the cir-
cumstances of the eines: ist tSIO a new meeting
Cad confirmed the resekutionii'lBoB, and denounced
line vacation by Chards. !VA isp ;tow so popular

in Ireland, ii Otis eadakt- irlbolltrat wren "
lapsi into rlai mere bontination the Crown. The
' Syne>i df iSle had eonfirnted the resolution of 1810.
He then read from a work by Mr. Clinch, published.
in 1808, and styled N the 'equity; or a Brief to Bi-
shops." the Opiniotik of that gentleman respecting
emancipation, and in layout of securities; In 1813,
a pastoral eaten had been issued in Ireland, repro-
bating the Bill at that time proceeding though the
House, and the conditions on which emancipation
was then proposed. If that measure hard been car-
ried three years since, it would have pet an end to
the disturbances excited by those men who wished to
mislead their country. At the next Synod, in 1814,
it was :hewn that the rescript of Quarantotti admitted
all which the Bill . had been proposed to include.--
In the month of August, 1815, the Catholic Prelates
hid declared as their conscientious opinion, that any
power given to the Crown to interfere, either directly
Of indirectly, with the nomination of Bishops, would
be improper, and that at all times they would oppose
such a measure in the most Catholic and constius-
iional manner. Nay, on Good Friday last, Arch.
bishop Murray had thought proper to ascend the
pulpit, and to denounce those who had signed the
Petition presented by his Hon. Friend, the Member
for , A letter from the same Prelate bad ap.
peared in one of the Dublin papers, stating, that to'l
submit to an alteration of ecclesiastical discipline
would be the degradation' and the enslavement of
Catholics, and the abandonment of their religion.—
Dr. Troy was therefore at issue with his coadjutors,
and the Catholics who had signed the Petition with
those who had not. Things could remain as they
stood at present, when some of the statutes of Eliza-
beth, subjecting all persons who should receive Built
or communicate with the See of Rome to the penal-
ties of high treason, were still in existence. He then
alluded to the regulations adopted in Hungary and
Austria, and concluded by moving that several.ofh-
cial papers relative to the regulation of Roman Ca-
tholics to various States of Europe, and in their Co-
lonies, be referred to a Select Committee,-.and that
they report the nature and the subject of the Ordi-
nances respecting the regulation of Roman Catholic
subjects, and their intercourse with the See of Rome,
and other foreign jmisdiction.
Mr. PEEL expressed his intention to support the
motion, as he saw nothing objectionable in it. He
was always desirous that the subject should undergo-
a deep investigation, but in saying that he should
not oppose the motion, he did not mean to give any
pledge that he might approve cf any of the securities
which the Honourable Baronet might propose. No
securities could remove the objections which he had
to the extensive securities proposed, and he even
thought it improbable that any of those securities
could be made more palatable to the Catholics than
those which they had rejected.
Sir H. PARNELL thought the animadversions
of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) on the
language of the Petition to be too severe : he should
have the honour to present the Petition in a few days.
He trusted the same moderate and, temperate lan-
guage which had lately been used on the occasion
would continue to prevail in all future discussions.
Mr. Piet. and Sir H. PA MILL explained.
Mr. LOCKHART opposed the motion,,because
in all changes which we have effected, we have made
them on the practice of our ancestors, and scot from
the-principles of the usages and liberties granted to
their subjects by foreign states. The Hen. Baronet,
he thought, could not shew any
.president for the
adoption of the measure he proposed.
Mr. W. ELLIOT said he did not ascribe that
value to the regulations which other people put opcin
them ; but there was little chance of this question
succeeding, unless due concessions were made ; and
he trusted the Catholics themselves would not be
backuard in making all the concessions that were tie.
nessary on their part. He should support the motion,'
as being a step in the progress of the desirable end.
The information might be useful to the public.
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought it well for Par-
liament to be fully informed of the practices which
other „nations had adopted, as it would shew what
was the unvaried practice of all the States in Europe
respecting the liberties enjoyed by Catholics, without
prejudice to the governments under which they lived.
The head of their Church was, of necessity, a foreign
Power, and it was necessary, therefore. to prevent
the See of Rome front going beyond the boundaries
which the safety of other States required. One of
the errors that hung about this question was,
that many persons seemed to think that every
step that was taken in it as a matter of legislation,
*as a matter of suspicion, that it was not looked
upon as the proceeding of common precaution,
which had . been found necessary in all times.—
He thought the present question embraced a most
interesting inquiry, because our former policy had,
by the course of events, been turned aside. He con-
sidered the Catholics to be interested in the good
Government of these realms; and it was not con-

intent that any foreign, power should have an unre-
stricted intercourse with the civil policy of these
realms. It was a strange anomaly, that all other
countries in the world had taught, that by being
placed under regulations, the Catholics were sate.
After the Reformation we had endeavoured to de-
stroy the Catholic religion altogether ; and the Act
of 15th Elia. was founded on the supposition that
that religion was not to be tolerated in these realms ;
but by the liberalized system of the world since that
period, it was known that the Catholic religion,
though not tolerated in this country, had been exer-
cised as freely, as in any part of Europe., The lan-
guage of certain Catholic Prelates was that "of pas-
sion rather than reason, and was unworthy of them;
for they must knew that we were watching over their
worship, as freely as over our own; but they would
know their own Government better when they saw,
that so far from-Irishiog to interrupt them it wished
to encourage them. Lie was sorry to say that it was
not in Ireland the CAtliolic religion was prolessed
with most liberality. There was there more of the
ultra-montane print?* rte 7t; thin in other countries.
On the whole, trusting that nothing could grow out
of the Committee proposed that could give pain to
any man's mind, but that its inquiries would enable
to look
°fairly at what had passed in Europe upon the
subject, he should Support the mottion;
Sir J..NEWPORT Stipported the motion, from
the conviction that it would dispose the country to the
more favousable reception of 'the measure, and lead
to a immunity of ptiviieges. The :agitations to

wltiebilli Noble Laid had lituadd it &NM perms.
b*4 1111,1.4 by the experience jai time, to be grossly,
fallacious and nnjnik,„
Sir C. H I PPI S LEY Wetly replied. He begged
to be Anderslood as having moved the question dis-
dimly as a Protestant motion, in order to reconcile
the anomalies concerning the Acts of Toleration.
The question was theft pdt and carried without a
division, and a Committee of twenty-one appointed
accordingly.
stoop LAWS.
On the 'simian of Mr. CUR WEN, the 43d of Eli-
zabeth was entered as read ; when the Honourable
Gentleman stated, that the question he was about to
submit to the House involved an expense of no less
than eight millions, and the entire degradation of the
lower classes of society : he apologized for attempting
a subject of such magnitude and importance, but
stated that his Constituents had called on him to
bring joule measure before the House on account of
the numerous Scotch and Lists• who settled in the
neighbourhood of Carlisle and Durham ; and he had
received every encouragement from the Noble Lord
opposite (Castlereagh). Among the numerous Peti-
tions that
,had lately come before the House, there
was not one thst did not represent the present system
of the Poor Laws as intolerable. The experience he
had had on the subject would induce him to shape his
course in a manner differedt from others who had
preceded him._ Hrshould state what he knew, and
then move for a Committee to consider the subject.
He was not contending merely to remove a burden
from the capital of the country, but also to amend the
'situation and conduct of the great mass of the people.
He should shew, that ever since the 43d of Elizabeth
the condition and morals of that body had been
growing worse and worse; and some steps must be
taken, or the system which had caused this evil would
bear down with it all that was valuable ill existence.—
It must be recollected, that Mr. Gilbert and Sir F.
Eden had spent their lives in the examination of this
subject : he should not say what was the met it of
their suggestions, because they were perhaps suited
to the exigencies of those times; but in the end they
had failed. The next person who took up the subject
was Mr. Pitt : he.had endeavoured to find a remedy
for the evil ; but in a question of this kind it was not
great abilities alone that c •uld succeed ; and Mr.
Pitt wanted the requisite experience—it was, there-
fore, no discredit to his talents that he had failed.—
He (Mr. Curwen) himself lead received fifty different
proposals, all at variance with each other ; he there-
fore knew the difficulties of tl:e question. The next
person who took up the qu•attion was Mr.Whithread ;
he was well qualified by experience • his speech wava
most luminous exposition of the ;hole subject, and I
though he then failed in his attempt, he had left re-
corded his most valuable opinion ; he :hewed that the
evils of the poor arose out of the poor laws them-
selves, which it uas impossible to remedy, but of
which the whole system must be altered. Sir Wm.
Pulteney had formed an opinion in favour of fixing
a maximum which the poor's rates should never in
future exceed; and Mr. Malthus seemed to be of this
opinion; but he ( Mr. Curwen) was not for over-
throwing the system at once, but for gradually on.
dermining it. Mr. Whitbread's plan for this purpose
was, first, a general and systematic education of the
lower classes; to this he (Mr. Curwen) most heartily
subscribed : secondly, a national bank to provide for
die poor out of their own earnings ; with this plan he
also coincided ; but the present system had gone on
for two hundred years, and could not be instanta-
neously laid *fide; be should not, therefore, rely on
any one system, or withdraw so great a machine as the
poor laws, without suggesting some adequate substi.
cute. Whatever had been the intention ofthe 43d Eliza.
beth, it certainly had given a right of being provided
for to every individual in the country, and we had no
right to destroy this inheritance unless for the general
' advantage of every one: but as the Pour Laws did
operate to the destruction of the happiness of those
whose happiness they were intended to secure, he
hoped -to shew that their abrogation would be the
cause of an increase of happiness to millions. If the
question were put to those who received relief, they
would confess that it lessened them in the opinion of
their associates. But what was it that had made the
people of this country superior to those of any other ?
What was it but that constitution and that freedom
which gave them moral and political importance, and
an interest in supporting a character I 'fake away
all this freedom and this interest in their own charac-
ter, and they must become as worthless as the slaves
of despinic Governments. The Poor Rates were not
only destructive of happiness to the lower classes, but
oppressive and ruinous to ail who paid them. He
should shortly trace their history. The first system
of Poor Laws was addressed to rectors and curates,
who were enjoined to take care that the poor aid not
die of hunger. The situation of the poor was then
'most deplorable, for by the dissolution of the mona-
steries they were left without the resources to which
ik they had long ,been accustomed. But the mischief of
this enactment soon appeared, so that a Statute
passed, ordering that any man found idle for the
space of three days should be marked with an S.—
Still the evil increased, when the statute of the 43d,
of tElizabeth was passed with the wisest intentions.;
It was designed only in aid 'of the old and impotent,
and never intended to apply to all indiscriminately,'
to the young and rotust, and even the idle and aban-
doned : thie appeared from the sum ordered to be
raised, which was only 5e13,000. But the effect in
, eighty years was such, that the sum to be collected
amounted to 665,000 : an enormous sum compared
with the income of the country at that time— a. 25th
part of the whole. The statute of William and Mary
v was remartabls, as sheaving the progress of the evil,
which had so much increased, that 'it was then
thought necessary. as a preventive, to mark with a
, badge the poor who received relief. The rate, in
I 1760, amounted to two millions ; and sine that pe-
riod, in fifty •ears. it had arrived at*one-eiglithd the
whole income of the country.; In 1780 a great
change took place in the situationsof the country,
which then became irgreat mannfacturingtountry,
and encouraged agriculture less than it had done.—
, The consequence was, that many quilt well disposed
inUivirluals removed to the towns, where they had not
the same motives to good conduct as before—their
sense of character vanished with the increased means
'of concealment, andthe little attention that naiscon-
. duct excited. It Was true they'gained greater wages,
but these were not always favourable to happiness,
, A because wadi thew arose increased warm. Another

•

the
e
lost
orders,
h ratese
esdhililaitven
wo .a
Us ei .ehtinlt2Phnie`g) u; s)
t.or' sinw64 a prpu. I ime dberfosr rt4eir
up w g ih nos!"
inadeeesd,:ttlen
itlienggradatisepn
.otuficriniet
011-o,k;
phraedsenctothsypsit,etmed, oif
hine
and rendered them entirely
will of the Overseer. If in the times of William:l
Mary badges had been adopted, we in our times hrldi
somethinh very like them—he meant the with ;
011 p.
A pauper was first stripped of all the little preptr;
his cottage afforded—he had n 6 interest left ia
W.
and nothing remained but a principle of
scatp
selfishness. This was a state which the people them.
notsewilsveensonwwr
into go
ise makettoh
the abstract
vsstiardcaercitfifocijaetn: aocvnloahisdp
of t ir
far it
c:htt e
• eS Ned
y
but while he admitted the claims of necessity, yle
thought nothing should be afforded till it was cleat
that the individual had done all in his own povrer t,
procure a subsistence. Tit=re nev'•r
" a Pttiot
more wiper for comivg to some rat:on:4l v:s!ern
the subject than the present. Whatev:r ?nide bed's
glory of cur arms. future histrnians ou:ti rathfr
dwell on the sudden nr,ral change of th.r
rapidly affected as it had been by the widely ddk felik
system of Lancaster and Bell. Such a elanpe must
greatly prepare the way for receiving any propos,' to
render the lower classes more independent and happy,
Mr. Rose was deserving cf much praise for leaving
encouraged Friendly Societies, but they Lad not
always succeeded ; they were too costly in the fiet
place, and were also defective, because their votT
were not proportioned to the wants but to the tontii.
bution of the party. The Poor Laws were not en!7
prejudicial to the lower, but also corrupted the loiOnt
classes of society, and had a tendency to repress teal
benevolent feeling. It was one of the praises of Ire.
/land, that whatever was the distress, there winanstßatftelcwa:sys:
a pervading feeling of benevoleoceansduflinoctihe
occasion. In Scotland, a country of all others the
most moral and best informed, benevolence was fully
equal to the demand made on it ;
slew the mischievous effects of the Poor Laws more
forcibly than the instance of a Parish in Dumfries.
shire, where, 4E13000 a year having been bequeatLel
for the support of the poor, they %e e, though few it
number, all paupers receiving relief ; while is the
next parish, where there were 1500 poor whim: pm-
vision, thete were only two paupers. The remedy
be meant to propose reced on the experience cf go
years. For 30 years, all the workmen he had em.
plied contributed 6.1. a week to a fond for their
relief ; R 20,000 had been raked in that time, and
I the result was to afford relief, medical asslstance,a..4
I a proper allowance to such ies needed it. His
plan, therefore, would be to call. on all classes to
subscribe a small contribution to a National Bank
in each Parish ; ft..ur.pence a week when wages,
were. ten shillings would produce £2,520,0:10.
The Honourable Gentleman then went iteo better
details which slrewed that the contribution front tuie
labouring classes would amount to itt.,BD,oan), and
from the other classes, £4,000,000 ; making up
£8,800,000: the result would be to create habits of
independence and +comfort, and secure the poor from
the workhouse : all the misery now experienced had
arisen from the degradation of the lower classes, Jed
his object was to raise and dignify them. He should
propose that a certain number should be elected from
that class, and a certain number from the class of
occupiers, to form rules for the regulation of the
money contributed. The Honourable Gentleman
then contrasted this with the present system—the im.
portante and interest in having delegates from their
own body to superintend their concerns, instead of
being subject to the caprice of tin overseer. He re.:
commended the money to be placed in the baud: of
the Lord-Lieutenant of the County, under the s-cu.
rity of Government. He thought an equal contrit'.
tion should be made from the military for the same
purposes, and some provision established for illegiti.
mate children deserted by their parents, who were
generally brought up in vice and ignorance, and
therefore became the worst members of society. He
would confine the operation of the 4.34 Elia. to the
old and impotent, and would revile the badge for tile
worthless and undeserving : he wished also to sim-
plify the law of settlements, and to allow parishey
on paying a compensation, to remove idle inhabitants
to other parishes. where there was a greater demand
for labour. Such the general outline cf the plait
he wished to suggest, and lie should now move for a
Committee to take into consideration the Poor Laws,
and to report thereon.
Mr. LOCKHART could not refrain from return.
ins his sincere thanks to the Honourable Member lot
the able light in which- he had placed the important
.
subject, that the real interests of the poor might be
consulted, and that canker be destroyed which had
too long been preying on the vitals of the country.'
The evil was of longer standing titan the 4.3 d of Eli-
zabeth. He 'hewed (he causes that led to this sta..
cute, and traced the bad consequences of those which
had followed it. The object now in view was not to
deprive the poor man of his inheritance, but to re::.
der him more industrious and independent in society.
It was highly the duty of the House to take up the
subject before it had gone too tar, and the diffcrei t
classes bad pressed.too mush upon one another. Alter
many observations in favour vt the inquiry, he con-
cluded with hoping that no time would be lost in an
interference.
Sir E. BRYDGES expressed his.hesitation in the
advantage of taking up the sanject in the way, recom-
mended. He did not we the evils of the system in
so alarming a light as it had been represented; but
he thought the difficulties that world arise from a
system so novel as that proposed would he insuper-
able. Whatever might he the result of the Commit.
tee, it mast be a long tome in arriving, which made
him regret the necessity he had felt himself under, in
withdrawing the Bills he had proposed, that might
have afforded at least a temporary remedy.
The Motion was then agreed to, and the Cornmi:-
tee appointed.

ALIEN BILL.
The Alien Bill was read a third time, en the mo-
tion of Lord CASTLERIACIII.

Lord ALTHOkPE said, that seeing no Or )speet
of the rejection of this. bill, he wished to do all the
practical good in his power, by providing same gourd
against its abusive exercise, and with that vazw he
proposed a clause to exempt from the opnation of
the bill Any aliens resident in this country bt lore the
Ist of January, 1816, adding, that although he m a-
lit:ll44 that period, be should be willing to adopt Ole
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