Star.
London, England, 1817-06-06 00:00:00

CLIP4BING SASS.

Lord MILTON said he held in his hand a Peti-
tion from certain of the most respectable inhabitants
of Sheffield, in favour of a very humble, but a very
numerous class of his Majesty's subjects—a chits,
whose calamitous condition had long excited the
compassion of every feeling mind. The Petitioners
prayed that House to take into its consideration the
propriety of adopting some means for abolishing tl.e
practice of sweeping chirnnies by the means of climb-
ing boys. Though the unfortunate lot of those ,
wretched beings had frequently called forth the
strongest sentiments of commiseration, yet the Peti-
tioners were afraid that nothing would be effectually
done for their relief till the Parliament interfered.—
, He entertained the same opinion ; but he apprehen-
ded it was too late now, to hope for any inquiry dur-
ing the pieseht Session: be should therefore merely
'mine that the Petition be brought up, and express
his hope that in the ensuing Session the subject would
be brought regularly before the Home.
Mr:LYTTLEToN said he had been applied to
support the prayer of the. present Petition. T 1...
extreme sufferings and hardships of the class of p r-
sons for whom the protection of the Legisl.tturt
now Sulicited. would. he was perilLadVii, m.i kt• a jeep
impression when their case casae to be fully investi-
gated. All men of common feeling and lium:iiiit.,
must be anxious to remove a eractice which entailed
so much misery. and for which no necow;ty what-
ever existed. The Master Chimney-sweepers, indeed,
might find their account in continuing the present
system ; because what they now did, by the help of
wretched children, they would perhaps have to do
themselves. if machinery were adopted. As to the
practicability of employing machinery. there coula
be no doubt. He believed it was generally used
throughout Scotland, and he knew it was in every
other part of Europe.
Lord LASCELLES expressed a wish that some.
thing might be done in the course of the present
Session. •
Mr. BENNET• observed, that he belonged to a
Society, whose object was to bring about an ahr,:itioe
of the employment or climbing boys. There was to
be a general meeting or that Society on `Saturday
next, and he could inform the Noble Lord, that
the beginning et the following week there would be
a notice upon the subject submitted to the House.
The Petition was read, and Lord MILTON moved
the appointment of a Select Committee, to whom it
should be referred.—Ordered.

MARKS TO THU LATE SPEAKER.

Lord eitiii'LEßE ii was anxious to call the
attentioll Of the House to the Motion of which

' had given notice, because, however important Vie
other business which was to occupy their attention
during the present evening migh: be, he was sure
there was nothing w:,ich they would be more anxious
and impatient to proceed to, than to discharge their
debt of gratitude to the individual who had lately
filled the Chair with such distineinshed ability
(Hew, gear.)—He was the more desirous of lesino
no these in doing this, because whatever other he-
nouns might be conferred—whatever the liberality el'
Parliament n ight grant for the sustaining of thaw
honours, he was sure there would be nothing more
gratifying to the feelings of that eminent character,
than the testimony of the affectionate gratitude enter-
tained towards him by this House, for his great sere
Vices in the Chair. Nothing which it was in his power
to of r to the House could augment the feeling which
he knew they already entertained of the high service!
which Lord Colchester had rendered to. Parliament
and to the country. It had not escaped their atten-
tion 'bat he had for along course of yeare filled the
officessf Speaker—an office attended with the gteatest
difficulty—with the greatest honour to himself, and
advantage to the country, and during, perhaps, the
most eventful period of our history. During the six-
teen years in which he filled the Chair the 'country
had been engaged, almost unremittinely, in one of
the most arduous straggles that a nation had ever
endured. But it was not merely the war which in-
, cleased the difficulties of the (Ace; for the country
in general had taken a start which entailed upon the
I louse a geeiree harden of legislative business. thee
bad ever been thought of at any former period. If
the quantity of public beiness transacted by the
11, use during the last sixteen )Bate were compared
with that gone through ie the same period of time at
any former part of our parliamentary history, it would
he found that it had increased tenfold. The numlter
of Inclesure Bills which had been pissed during that
Period, and the immense increase of other business,
were seeth as to require ail the diligence and alt cos
ebil;ty of the meet active and experienced individual.
Every day the House Led occasion to observe ti's
eminent abilit'et of their late Speaker—every day
they had occasion to• feel the advantege of being
euided by his counsel, which, he might say, was the.
ablest-and the best that had ever emanated from thst
Chair—(firer, Lear).—All this was deeply engrevest
on the minds of every Member of the House. What-
ever party difference there might have been—into
whatever warmth or even viole..ce of discussion trey
might have been betrayed—stiil they always felt that
d or were conducted by an authority the ne s hit li,
combined with an independence and integrity tee
most puve--(Hear, hear):—lt was his wish, on this
occasion, first to submit to the House a resolution ex-
pressive of its thanks to Lord Colchester. As to ally
ulterior measure, he was sure Os House would do
his Majesty's Government this justice to believe that
they only advised the Crown to do that which would
enable the House to discharge their duty in .a way
which would be the 'mist satisfactory. After the
House had testified its thanks by passing a 'evolution •
for that purpose, be would prnpose to follow it up
tiy moving an Addiess to his Royal Highness, Fray-
ing, that on behalf of the Crown, he would be gra:
cloudy pleased to confer some distinguished mark of
iavour on the Lite Speaker— (Hear, hear).—The only
point on which he tonic! anticipate that a shadow
cit difference could gees; in the House on this !object
was, whether there was any occasion for an Address
to call the attention of the Crown to the services of
the Speaker ; but as there could only be a struggle
between the two sides of the House to testify their
feelings towards the distinguished individual in quest
lion in the best way, he did not see that any difficulty
could arise. He concluded by moving the folloning
Resolution :—", That the Teanks of this House be
expressed to the Right i lonoureble Charles Abbott,
now Delon Colchester, for his eminent and distire
guished services during the long and eventful period
in which he discharged the duties of Speaker, with a
zeal and ability alike honourable to himself and ad-
vantageons to the House. That he be assured Olt
proofs which he has given of attachment to the Kinie
and co mire—the exemplary-firmness with which ee
tuaintaieed tat dignity and privileges of this House
—the ability, integrity, and unremitted attention
which he bestowed on parliamentary business, Pisay
reititle him to the admiration and respectful gratitede
if the Hoese."—(Loud and repeated cheer:).
Lord WILLIAM Ril:l8leLle said, that it w.s
with feelings of great ti lectance he ielt hineelf -erne
pelted, by :s strong sense of public dory, to peer-is.
lair di etint to the Vete of '1 haeks just read from th
C'eeir. 1 i al: tiro had linen from the Noble Lord
oppe.ite (Castlereagh), in rtspect to the general abie
iity, unceasing industry, and very great learning
(most ileport ant and estimable qualifications) of the
late Speater, he entirely concurred. But with every
inclination to allow the fullest merit, he could not at
die-sante time effece from his recollection the con-
duct of that Speaker at the fee- of the House of
Lrirds, at the termination of the Setsion in 1819, to-
gether with the motion fora rots Of censure made
subsequently. by a Noble F. icnd ief his (Lord Mot-
-I,eth). Whether his l's; .hie Fisinti was now in tee
Heise or not, he could not say, but he was cc tifidetzt
his conduct on that occasion could cot be attributed
:tit to the purest motive's—(Near, hecr.)—lt weele
Ire fatally injiirioei to the character of Parliament, if
atter 117 Menthe's of that kleuse had voted for a
tette of censure against the late Speaker, in thee
I veers Afterwards in the same Perlienwee the House
i should agree to an unanenoes, unqual tied vote ut
approbation. And the mere so, that no one osten-
I reason has been edduced to account tor the
• change, but that the sane Speaker, aft • made the
Crown a perty.,to the proceedings u. ilhe H ,use, had
beets cilled direct fowl its Ch-tr to. Peerage (his
said called, for he was sc‘ tee tashiented in I.is feelings
of the dignity of that House, not to consider it an
eievetieri), on the admitted groend that it afforded
the itlitstriens personage at tile !mid of the Govern-
mesa cf yes .:usury: set cep:.:... i y Ci C C.:3llStra.

Ong hi. sense of the services of that Nobleman, in
• the Chair of that Hnose—(Hoer. Wt..) —lt was ndt
Lis intention to take the scour of the House upon the
question, but he could not in compliance with an
over-ruling sense -f duty but dissent to it.
Mr. C. W. WYNN. having taken an active part
in supporting the vote of censure alluded to by the
?ioble L,Trti 0,0 spoke last, he could not but "say a
few sox& on tis occasion in consequence of what
had fallen from the Noble Lord. When he looked
back on between fifteen and sixteen years of active
and zealous service, he slid not leul that one instance
suede such an exception as to render that distin-
pished character unworthy of the thanks of the House.
It was impossible that in such a long period of time,
in a situatirn which requited the frequent determi-
nation of the nicest questions—under such drains.
stances it was not possible that no difference of opi-
nion should take place on any of the deciiions. But,
looking on this vote in its true light, as testifying
the approbation of the Hous.• of the general conduct
of their Lite Speaker, it had his most hearty ton
current e.
Mr. BANIEES expressed much surprise that any
oppo.iiien should be given to the presentornOtion. It
was not his wish to revive t! e debate on the'conduct
of ti e late Speaker un the partiCular occasion alluded
to, but to• could not retrain from reminding the
House ilia, it had been shear that his conduct on
that o-casi n was justified by no less an authority
than that ot. Mr. Speaker Onslow. Hs was 'trey
sorry the Nook Lord (W. Russell) had found it OW
cessary to disturb the unanimity of the House on this
occasion.
The question was then put upon the Resolution,
which was agreed to.
It was ordered that Mr. Speaker should signify
this Vote a the House to Lord Colchester.
Lord CASTLEREAGH this% moved, 4g That
an humble Address be presented to his Royal High-
ness the Prince Regent. beseeching his Royal High.
ness that he would be graciously pleaseJ, in the
name and on the behalf of his Majesty, to cooler
some signal mark of the Royal favour on the Right
Hon. Charles Baron Colchester. late Speaker of this
House, for the great and eminent services performed
to his country, and to assure his Royal Highness that
whatever expense his Royal Highness might think it
proper should be incurred for this purpose, the House
would make good."
Mr. PONSONBY said, that the House had al-
ready got into cl&culty enough on this subject. A
Message trona the Prince Regent stood recorded on
the Journals, and no further notice had been taken
of it. Aud now the House was called upon to tell
the "'lime Regent, that whatever sum his Royal
Matinees thought prow to settle up n Lord CL,I•
ehester, the House would make good. His Ibb•
jeXiien us this motion was,that it deprived the House
of the power of considering what was a proper prow,.
sion for Lord Colchester or his family. He, toere-
fore, wishedshat the Noble Lord would reconsider
this pact ul the Address. He was sure mere was no
reluctance sin the part of the House to make a liberal
provision for Lord Colchester"; but what he objected to
was, that the House should deprive itself of the discre-
tion of dries Mining what was a proper provision. The
House could hardly be said toy/rant any thing when
itleft to Another to Si the magnitude an. He there-
foes implored the Noble Lord-to reconsider this, and
tcslet the House be unanimous on a subject on which'
they were all disposed pi be unanimous.
.Mr. B. BATHURST said that the present medal
was exactly similar to the Address voted by the
ron the elevation of Mr.' Speaker Onslow to
eerage. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read
the, Address moved on the resignation of Mr. Speaker
Onslote, which etas word for word the same with the
eon now MOveds
-Mr. PON/AWRY thought there was a difference
between the present case and that of Mr. Speaker
°Wow. In that case the Crown was to grant a
pension out of the Civil fist, and the Crown at that
time had the power of doing so. But in the present
cam the Crown could nut grant any passion out of
the Civil List als.ive alit() 4 yea. It was thetetOte
now necessary for the Crown to make the grant in
the first instance. Another objection to the present
motion was, that there now stood recorded upon the
liernms a message from the Prince Regent upon the
subject. He begged his Majesty's Ministers to at-
tend to this. It was no cavil raised by him. It
such a message was to be immediately toUowkd by
ouch a mutiou as this, it would be no more than an
echo of that message. What the fiouse ought now
to do was In grant the money.
Mr. Rtost, said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Ponsunby) was under a misconception as to
the power-of the Croon to grant a pension to Mr.
Speaker Onslow, for the Crown could then only have
granted a pension for the life at the Men King.
Bp Mr. PONSONBY--0 lbe Right Hon. Gentleman
must however recollect, that the Crown could then
have grant, d a pension for its own lite."
Mr. ROSS-;-“Jismisea beyond it."
Mr. C. W. WYNN really .thought the motionl
liable to the objection of his Right Honourable
Vriead. Nom et the usual steps had been taken
open the Message from the Crown on this subject,
and these steps had not been taken, because the
House Douala* by taking no notice of it, to shew its
dieapptisb.oun. He was of opinion, after the House
had marked by their votes their sense of the conduct
of their Speaker, it would appear much mere ob.
jecsionablt, it they were to proceed immediately to
vete the peusion, as he thought it ill-advised and ill-
•judited.to have recommended such a Message. If
the House were to pledge itself to make good what-
ever the Crown Might
_be pleased to bestow in this
instances it was the same as if they wets to agree to
pay fur the erecting of any National Monument, or
goo* ebtipitilding of a Chew) as large as St. Paul's.
)hat aisuels a Message were to come down, would
elk lisunie pledge itself to make good the amonnt,
white-iris is might be, or in trOy as to grant a re-
lated to an indefinite amount On the whole, bow-
er*, as the Motion did nut pl. dge the House to any
nillseceseatf expense, bis as ready to give his assent
*nay tool that was reasonable.
nANICRS contrasted the proceeding with re.
• sitect to Mr. Speaker °mow. to Mew that tt would
'th* ilceeded the power of the CfUWII, at that time,
vagrant a pension tut she Inc ot. another prison,—
.Bllta by. she clay* ut .01y, Burtein IhU,.w.tush
Saiie to pasioes, so rowel Could its give mots

twelve honked pounds. except Member: of the Royal
Family, and those individuals to whom it might be
voted by Parliament. It was, therefore, sviely
within the power of Parliament to do it by an Act of
their own; but there was no instance of the Crown
expending any sum of public money without the au-
thority of the House to make goad the same The
Honourable Gentleman alluded to the cases of the
grants to the Duke of Wellington and the family et
the late Mr. Perceval ; and observed, that what had
been done in one case could be done in another.—
He concluded with expressing his wish for the Ad-
dress to be carried,' 10 being more respectful to the
late Speaker, and on this ground he should support
the motion.

Mr. TIERNEY said, if this question were to be
discussed many years hence, it would appear that
the pension bad grown out of the Message instead of
the Address. The grant might be made at once,
and all that might be notified to the House was, that
it had been nude, without the amount being made
known till then. The case of the grant to Mr. Per-
ceval's 'unsay was precisely of an opposite descrip
tion, for the question then was for enlarging the
sum. But what would be the situation of the House
if an Amendment were to be moved to diminish it
on the present ,ccasion ? He could not hot believe
that th-re must have been some understanding as to
the amount of remuneration intended to be given,
'though the Hotne, as yet, were in the dark about it.
He had heard scver4l versions of it. At first he had
heard that it was intended to give 5t4,000 to Lord
'Colchester, and /12,000 for the second life. Since
then it has been said his Lordship was to have €3,006.
But it was nut too much to ask Ministers what really
was the amount intended I for he did not believe the
House ever went so blindfolded to work before, as
to pledge themselves to make good a sum, without
knowing what it was.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
could have no objections to give the Right Honour.
able Gentleman the information about which he

seemed so desirous. As to the►point of the duration
of the pension, it was obvious the House must be
called on by the Crown ; but he had not the least
difficulty in stating what wits the amount of the pro-
•ision to be submitted to the consideration of the

House. It was likely he should have £4,000 for
Lord Colchester, with 813.000 to the first heir male
that should succeed to the title. That granted to
Mr. Speaker Onslow was £3,000 for two lives;
theretore, considering the difference of the times, he
did not apprehend the House would be charged with
leaning to the side of extreme liberality in granting
this sum. He bad only stated these points, that Gen-
tlemen might come- with their minds more matured
to the subject when the Bill should be proposed.
Mr. TIERNEY replied, that he was not satisfied
with what he had heard, as he still could not but
think the House was called on to make good the
claim the Peerage might be deemed to have to sup
port. But he would ask„, was not Lord Colchester
already in possession, as appeared by a former Sine.
cure Report, of a place producing 41,500 a-year ?
It so, he would have seszoo a-year, and his son, on
succeeding him, only 43,i)00. He could not con-
ceive why the eon was to maintain the dignity of the
Peerage with an,lioo, 4114 the father to have £5,506.
On the whole, though wishing to do every thing
fair to;eards the late Spa .ker, he thought this to be
tin excessive provision, in the present state of the
country, and. ought riot, under all the circumstances,
to be consented to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in explanation, said, undoubtedly the late Speaker
was in possession of a place on the Irish Establish-
ment of a-year Irish currency, or £1,200
nominal. But he received that remuneration in con-
sequence of ri anguishing a place for life of 41,000
a.year, when he accepted the situation of Speaker.
Sir CHARLES hIONCK thought the Message
ought to have been noticed in the printed votes.
Mr. PETER MOORE considered that the ques-
tion of granting this reward should be left to the
Consnaitter of Supply.
Mr. SUMNER.—The situation in which the late
Speaker was now plaeed, had no resemblance to
that of Speaker Onslow. Mr. Onslow, at the time
his pension of £3OOO was granted, had a title to look
to as Peer, and he had also an ample fortune to sup-
port that title The profits of the office were then
considered at MIX % and accordingly, the House in
its wisdom allotted him and his son that sum for
their lives. It so happened that Mr. Onslow never
get the title, and his son was kept out it fur eight or
ten years after his lather's death, and the pension of
£9OOO was enjoyed by the two for about tilty-seven
years. It at that time the House saw cause to give
Mr. Onslow a pension suited to the profits of the of-
fice, he maw no reason why Lord Colchester should
be allowed only two•thirds of the salary granted to
the person filling the Chair, sad which was st6uoo
annually. On these views, and also considering that
Lord Colchester had well deserved every attention
the House could bestow on him, he differed irom the
Right Honourable Gentlethan (the Chancellor of the.a.
Exchequer) nearlhitih. Hr was induced the more to
du so, recollecting as lie did the manner in which
Mr. Speaker Foster, in the Irish Cumin us, had been
rewarded. He was aware, that when compensation
was alluded to, as give, to persons holdibg situations
in behind at that time, that the motives for giving
that would be thought of ; but he could assure them
that Mr. kiosk, had beta actuated by the most dia..
intetetted motives, and he had received £5OOO.
The Motion was their agreed to.
MT* OF Fla CoUNTRY.
Lord CASTLEREAGH appeared at the Bar.,
*rids the Papers referred to in the Message of his
R opal Highness the Prone Regent, which were, as
Ile the ho us) hornet °tedio, brought up, sealed in a Green
big. the tits' of the Papers being read, his Lordship
Moved thit;Oreler of the Day for taking into conside-
ration the Message which his ft-lat Eigliness had
been graciously pleated to mod down to the House.
Lord CASTLEREAGH.--.-" J apprehend, Sir,
there cats exist no difference of opinion. in -the Mame.
respecting the .Motion with which I ahall etweigje
because, by acceding to that Motioo, the use dues
not dosed, nor Athrectly pledge itself to ethos,-fee,
ukr.pructedings may be adopted. My 14014111-11191
simply be for ign rtd.ress to his Royal aghneil,-
Pi meg Regent, (banking him for his gracious an-
nzoili,atiuti to the House, anti assUring him at the.
!Attention of the House to coke. hist tdessege into. 411
immediate consideration. Any disclaim, therefore,

at this moment, on this quettion. will, I am confi-
dent, be premature; as it is impocsible (or me to state
that the line of Conduct is that may li:reatter b
adopted, till the Committee which I am about c pro-
pose have made :heir Report. When t11;s otion
for an Address shall have been disposed of. I shall
then move the appointment of a Committee, aid
I think it extremely proper, that most of the Mem-
bers on the former Co mince be to appointed ; kind
that the new Solicitor General be nominated a Mem-
ber, in room of Sir William Gartow, now one of the
Barons of his Majesty's Court ni Exchequer. His
Lordship having moved for the Address,
Lord FOLKESTONE rose. It wit not hii in-

tention to oppose the motion in the present instance,
hut he could not avoid making a kw observations,
especially after the measure which the Noble Lord
had stated it was his intention to propose. He fully
concurred in the sentiments of the Petition presented
in the early part of the evening tr .m Reading, and
in the abhorrence which the Petitioners kit at the line
of conduct Ministers were about to adopt, and he
certainly implored the House to pause before they ac-
ceded to what would be proposed. He could sin-
cerely wish that this was the first step to a despotic
Government, but he was obliged to say it was only
one of a series, in which, if the House persevered,
there would be soon a total extinction of the last
spark of English freedom. N:ver, in truth,
we have the enjoyment of the Habeas C rpus Act
again, as every argument which was now brought
forward io support its present suspension, 'nigh! be
no every occasion adduced. Early 1 ist Session lie
had warned the House against the consequences of
entrusting Ministers with a Standing Army of so
enormous an amount, especially in time of peace ;
and he left the House to judge whether what he had
then said had not unhappily been realised. In truth,
never had a measure more dangerous to public li-
berty, than that of a Standing Army in time of pro-
found peace, been thought of. Another step equally
fatal to public freedom, was the passing of the Alien
Act, which was nothing more nor less than a direct
introduction into England of the Lefties de Cachet.
When that unfortunate measure was pr pased, he
told them it would lead to the people of this country
being deprived of liberty, and this had, he was sorry
N say, too soon taken place A year had not elapsed
since the passing of that Act, till the people of Eng-
land saw the bulwark of their liberties overthrown by
the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Such was
the deplorable state the country, such the boasted
liberty of Englishmen—(Hear, hear, hear.)—It was
however astonishing, that with such an immense
Standing Army, Ministers should not rest satisfied,
but propose a measure which went to make the
Crown despotic, and the people as miserable and as
absolute slaves as -it was possible for human beings to
be. No objection could be made to the appointment
of a Committee, as it was the established practice of
the House ; but be should certainly move, that the
Committee be appointed merely to arrange the pa-
pers, because he would not consent to surrender to
them the power of dictating to the H. iuse. (Hear, heir.)
roe wished the House would as a House take sly?
power into its own hands, and judge for itself, with-
out alloa•ing any Committee in dictate to it. And
he would also wish, that a new Committee be ap.
pointed. The Noble Lord had talked of the last
committee in a manner which would lead.one. to
suppose he thought them apt and clever for their:
duty; but the Hoise should remember, that it was
probable the Members of that Committee might be
biassed in consequence of their former opinions, and
therefore in fairness they ought to have new persons.
The distresses of the country had led to some out-
rages, and the Noble Lord would now see, that those
distresses were not the effect of a transition from war
to peace, but arose from a bad system of policy, and
this could easily be shewn by the doctrines propagat-
ed among the people formerly, that their happiness
and prosperity resulted from the wisdom anti good
policy of Governmem If these doctrines demon-
strated any thing, they did 'too much for Ministers,
because they must be considered as proving that the
misfortunes of a country arose from the ilt policy of
its rulers. Viewing then the matter in this light, he
implored the House to pause before it agreed to the
proposal of the Noble Lord, and his colleagues. TI
distress had led to these outrages, better at once
would it be to inquire into the causes of the distress,
than .ccede to the wishes of Ministers in introducing
this Suspensions which was obviously intended for
the express purpose of stifling the public opinion on
the necessity of Parliamentary Reform. (Hear, hear).
Mr. CURWEN expressed his concurrence in the
opinions of the Noble Lord who had just spoken A
delay of a few days, until the approacting trials were
over, would, without the apprehension of any impro•
per disclosures, enable the whole House to rake the
Papers into consideration, instead of referring them
to the consideration of a Secret Committee.
The Motion was then agreed to.
Lord CASTLEREAGH then mosed, that the
Papers which he had presented to the House should
be referred to a Committee.

—Loid 'FOLKESTONE mired as an Amendment
to add the woods," to examine and arrange, and to
report the substance to the House; omitting only
bui.h names as, in the judgment of the Committee, it
would be dangerous to the persons thembelres to
disclose."

This Amendment was negatived without a divi-
sion, and the original Motion agreed to; as was alto
a Motion, that the Committee should be one of Se-
crecy; and another, that the Committee should con-
sist of 21 Members.

Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved, that such
Members of the Committee appointed on the sth of
February last as were now Members of the House,
otould be Members of the proposed Committee.
Sir J. NEWPORT objected to this proposition on
three distinct grounds;—ln the first place it was go-
ing out of the way to offer an insult to the other
Members ut the House of Commons. The present
was a n.uch more important occasion than that on
which the former Committee was appointed. We
were then at the commenctment of a Session, and of
whatever power Ministers wished to be possessed,.
they required but for a limited time. Now, we were
,Approaching the close of the Sessionelnd any such
I Owen, it granted at all, must• of necessity be pro-
Amsted until another Session of Parliament ; and it
iumour were true, till the first Session of another
Nniamen
.141 the second place, he objected to the
'mutton, because, withdtat wishing to attribute any un-

due motives whatever to the Members cf the former
Commutee, he was persu idea they could not possibly
Ire-enter en the consid.r•non f the subject, with tl'.eir
minks wholly free from prejudice H $ third 1,(C.,
tion to the motion was, that Moti‘ters,
pronounced their ',pit ion en the subj. ct ht
gated, ought not to be Members of the Commine.
The N hie Lord had unequivocally stated in h place,
that it was the conviction of fits Majesty's \lt ,turn
that the Habeas Carpus ought to be further suspiind.
ed. He, therefore, on the part of the c untry, ctal.
lenged the Jury who were to s:t on the Lithrties of
the Country. he shituld, in similar circumstances,
challenge a Jury en any ciiimlttal trial— (Ifear,Ator).
It was impessible that the c ainiry could have. tor
trial by a Jury, many of the ter t•Jherb ~t •vhich 114 d
already pronounced judtzment ir the car. H
thought it right to announce his determination, should
the result of the inquiry be to propose the c ritinea
Lion of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Di
'take the sense of the House on a clause which ha
should feel it his duty to propn.e, limiting the Jura.;
Orin of the Suspension to the es:smite, of the preterit
Parliament. If the pent.c of wo!r n.m in a
state to enjoy their privileges at:d were
not in a state to entitle them to the erucire eti the
Elective Franchise. Nulling conk'. be more incte-
cent than to proceed to the election of a new H.'use
of Commons with a sword hanging ever the t gad of
every individual by a hair, that 'aright be cut at the
pleasure of the Minister. Ha would, therehne. move,
as an amendment, instead of the motion of e ?table
Lord, to refer the subject to vie consideration of a
Cimmittee, to be chosen by eacluduig every
Member of the last Com •••ttee, antl every one pis
Majesty's Ministers, they having already prunes, teed
an opinion on the subject.
This Amendment was put from the Chair, but be.
fore it was seconded,

Sir J. NEWPORT moved, that the Committee
consist of the following Members :
Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Abercromby
Lord G. Cavendish Sir 3 S. bright
Sir C. Mordauat Lars: A thotpe
Right Hon. W. Pole Mr. S. Worley
Sir S. Romilly Mr. *. Wynn
the Attorney General Mr. Shaw r..-f. vre
The Solicitor General Mr. C.,4: eauy Cut Exeter)
Sir J. 'haw Mr. Lyttitton (ot sVorceiter•
Mr. Davenport shir.)
Mr. G. Russell Mr. Wilberforce
Mr Fane Right dun. Hivy Addington.
Mr. BA I'HURST Objected to the irrr 0... .1 y of
the Honourable Baronet in tiviving fir thr app .ant-
aunt of th.ise particular Members while A motion
was still before the Home, als,, to de by .1. .or,.
Baronet tor al pointing the Conot.i.iee by bulim.
Sir JOHN NEW NUR I' iibservcd.th4t his ni .lion
for appointing the Committee by ballot had on b••en
seconded, and appotted to the SoeaLer on ,fle subject.
The SPEAKER said, th.,* tt.es ca•led &INA'. he
was hound to say that h H t.. 1. ...iiiiourable lissom-I had
ssithdrawn his motion for the arpoiti- molt i.f & Com.
mittee by halliit boore it ;Ina secoi,di.d. .

Mr. BATHURST then prcree-led t argue/gain*
the second motion made by the H ,netriabie B aeheri
which, in his opinion, was eon!? ,ry to hall preeerene
in.such cases. It was usnal, .often thepowers any
proposed Cutn mince were par is( d oe.etorine
en each name, but, on the lionoto,:blef Barunet's
plan, the House mutt appoint all er hole f the
Members whom he had proposed Ht• d. need teat
there was any disrespect to the oille t Metrhere m
proposing the re-appointment of the Committee *tech
the House itself had, in the first itistaecii, nominated
by ballot. It was singular. that toe Fl weir le
-
Baronet should consider such ien disre-
spectful, and then name the Commuter :eire.eir. In
his (Mr. Betburst's) opinion, great advantages wield
be obtained by referring the subject to the ((modera-
tion of the Committee, b) winch it had been'. bisti-
gated, as they were better acquainted wits theta: te and
could more accurately estimate the true state or dimes.
Nor could it be supposed that they would be erejs-
diced on the slibjeci. On e contrary, those Mem-
bers of the Committee who might be induced to think
that their former opinion was founded upon errone-
ous grounds would have an opportunity of correct-
ing that opinion ; while, on the other hind, ihoce
who thought that what had occurred since the Report
of the Committee, confirmed their opini in, wiuld
have no hesitation in declaring so. The Committee
were not called upon to pronounce any rpiwuu with
respect to the ulterior measures that Pero event
might chink it expedient to auopt ; but merely ei in-
quire into the facts submitted to there, waft a view
to eupress their ojiiniini sas to the ty.l:tit.g :tale of the
'country. The H onourable 1.. d thoe:f::t
proper to challenge the appondue ut tif Lis Dsi.jesty's
Ministers on the Jury, and then very inconsistently
named two of his Right Honourable C hi avues He
deeied the validity tit ihe H nourable olJ-
jeetion. Jurors were chal:teged bi dUie tt was sup-
posed that they had heard bet one side of the
t . But what was the case in the presAit hex?
Ministers had seen all the papers. They s ere n
in duty to see them before the) presented e ern :)e
House. They were secret papers only to those vii.o
were not Members cl Government. Kuow:ag, there-
fore, the whole case, they could no more be eel) srd
to be biassed or. the subject than any other elei..Vers
of the Committee, after they had acquired as t3;ttii•
sive a knowledge of the subject.
Mr. BRAND contended that this was a If 'Oft im-
portant question, being nothing more nor
whether or not it was proper to suspend ~or
and whether the people or England were or ere
not justly liable to the charge of ene leonine it"'
sonable intentions aga'nst the Constitu.ion ? It tv,.
indispensible, therefore, that the Commuter shousl
be constituted in such a manner as tv so, sty t!le
people that its investigations would be
The question was this.. Ministers imAgineJ they ::s.:
in their hands evidence of treason .bie practices per-
'fading the whole country ; they accused the peviNe
of Eliglaod, who joined issue with theiii—(llear.)--
By what Jury was the cause to be trieu ? the
Committee on the former occasion been appu 'lied is
a manner satistactory to the pehple of England? If
any one were asked this question out of doors, the
answer was in the negative. No nomination by Mi-
nisters could be satisfactory. Let a Committee be
fairly appointed ; let name by name be inv.:twat:li
and do not let lists written by Ministers ne beide
about for the purpose of being eleced in tlx gf asses
upon the table. flie Houourable B toilet's at...:1-*
ment with respect. to the natural tendency of ifie
Members of the former Committee to 2 bias on i;,e

oFect, teat onansweraMd. if Miuisters....if the
Presentative, of 'Le People, wished to earry the
wren:"' with them, and to pain the eieid opinion and
ennsdoice of the discfeet, the conscie-itfous, and the
tea. i uemnal part of the c"mmunity, they *mild ap-
pr:ni a Committee, the names of the Member. .11
014 h W nold cenvince ever; mind of the impartiality
of rese investieation.
Kr. BARHAM consideted the decision of the pre-
lent guesti •n as involving the decision on the ques
ti,n whether the Habeas Coypus Suspension should
be confirmed! Whether the people of England were
ore rte such treason as to render them justly liable
to ht. wired of all pretence •f canine themselves a'
fr,r elite ? He was anti-:us to enter his earliest
pent.:t ay umt such a proposition, and the more so,
to( me hitherto, when such measure. had been re.
on:mended (with the exception of the last occasion),
he i..id felt it his painful duty to vote for their adop.
tiryi. The circumstances of the times were, however,
materially iiifferint from those of the periods to which
h. 'hurled At those periods we stele at war, not
met- 1, or vissessions, but for existence ; at those
rind: it wes indispensible t!'at the attention of the
Executive Government should not be withdrawn
frail ,xternal conies', by internal commotion; at that
rind the discontents existing in the country wer
ready to br fomented by a powerful enemy, whose
intrigue, had ramified extensively throughout the
Empire. Were any such dangers now existing ?Tu
him it appeated that the present was not a temporary
surrender of the Habeas Corpus Act. If the Legis.
bture were now justified in suspending it, he could•
rct cnuceive A case rn which they would be justified
in limn away the suspension. He did not at:ribute
to the piesent Ministry any such proceeding, but if a
wicked Minister wished at any future period to ob.
tani that undue power which the suspension would
aff, rd him, he would only have to instigate a distur-
boc, in some part of the country, and plead this
recv.le.it for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus.—
Ninth lie did not say that it was so, he would grant,
for 11,e sake of the argemen,, that there were districts
io the caintry in which mischievous practices were
aming on, W 45 that a reason for suspending all
h., ihrwrglo.ut the country' Parliament began to
be too much tamihsrised with the Suapension of the
}14h..,$ C.rput..Act. That suspended, there was no

Ir 'Trice het ween the Government of England. and
•a,potic Governments on earth. What were
the /rare: de-cachet which it•. France occasioned, and
is t.,c inch of rime persons, justified the Revolts-
tion, b•st stospt.nsion of the Habeas Corpus ? We
thanked ?ROVIDENCIL tor the issue nt the late contest.

41 hal we g tined if we were 1.. be deprived et our
.tt.s ? What difference should we have felt, be.
en filling under the dominion ot Bonaparte, and
ig J: proved ot the Habeas Corpus i--(Hear, .Isear.)
the suspension were to last during an election, he
' a rig,,i .to ask at th it raitly be called a
C down's, C.tobtla und r such circum-
Agin nut any man, who did not please
be imprisoned as long as the Minister
fir, and that without remedy ? In :ot-
itis privilege, the House of Commons
ender every. thing—they would surrender
ito.y would surrender their country (how.)
iMITH said, he knew that the Committee
ice of Lords had, on this subject, come to
decision ; and 'be knew not that tidy other•
ad been laid before the Committee ot that
. what had been laid before the Committee
tiute of Lords. They had therefore a right
the decision of this question should not be
to the same parties, a no had already de.
ig. The evidence taken before the last
was undoubtedly tit noted down, altd
tat evidence might be laid before the next
He hid been.desired by the respectable
; of Norwich who OerSided on the occasion
Grand Jury entered into an examination of
'tins with respect to that city, to state to
trait in direct contradiction to the Report
.nmittee of the House of Lords—in direct
:bon to the evidence on which that Report
(minded, the Grand Jury ih their presentment
only on the evidence of the Constables of
it wards, but also as their own opinion;
.h Societies ekisted in Norwich as those
mat Report. • He knew that this was also
opinion of the individual in question, who
at he (Mr. Balkh) should represent it as
be could to the House. With respect to
non., since that time an election had taken
did not contend that a bad Spirit had not
f—but w as there any one circumstance'
occurred, than any Member of this or the
Ise would term seditious, in the ordinary
word ? When he said a bad spirit, he
spirit of riot and tumult which had un-'
taken place; but the question Was, who.,
existed *among the looser orders such a
cis Majesty's Ministers had reason to be
,such a spirit as they were told by their
did actually exist ? He repeated, that
nut help thinking that the examination
be put into other hands than those who bad
luenced oy the same evidence which had mis-
',nominee of the other House. He was
therefore, that the Committee of his Right
id should be accepted, instead of the for-
mer. He contended, too, that they ought
the whole country of the safeguard of
union, on account of anew disturbed dis-
. 4 follow the. example which had been set
:r Kingdom under similar circumstances.
i'HEROE wished that on this occasion
Astenibly or County Members sad indepen-
ibers had been present, as the country, in
would bare paid moteleference to their
Wien he gave his support to the measure
ailing the Habeas Corpus Act, be did it in
confidence in the unanimity of the opinion of
lake- But the question was infinitely more
now than lt was when it came on the
occasion before them, irbeis Parliament was
' had A
power of interference. He Could
to delegating to any individual the power
',animating a Committee. When the former CoM-
' was nominated, there Was at least the sem-
, it not the reality, of so egression ot the dn-
.. • senue of the Httu,e.
.LAMB understood that the appointment of
Loniinitter, when it was proposed to colt-
the Suspension ot the Habeas Corpus Adt. VIM
altogether unpreciedeneedi Formerly, when

suet. a tiliainte eras fliopciseil to be renewed, tile Mi-
nister asked it oft his own responsibility. On the lath
occasion too his Majesty's Ministers had not f ilovel ,I
prec-dent. Mr. Pitt and Mr A fdiftatto. nana-.!
their Committees persons who entertained tl,-• saute
views with respect to the situation of the coon!? v
which they themselves did. In his opinion this was,
the constitutional mode. But if Minister; attempte ,
to gain also the support of persons who entertained
opinions at variance with the general principles on
which they acted. they ought to have done it on a
larger and m ire extensive basis, and in a manner to
give sitastaction to the country. If the same Com•
mittee were appointed, they would be placed iii a very
trying situation—if they gave in a similar Report, it
would be said they were prejudiced; and if the Re-
port were different, they would .also be liable to the
accusation of having allowed themselves to be terri•
lied by the reproach and obloquy likdy to be thrown
on them. He should give his support to the Com-
mittee of his Right Honourable Friend, though he
agreed with the Member for Bristol in thinking the
mode of appointment objectionable.
Sir WILLIAM BURROUGHS contended, that
it would be more satisfactory to the House and the
country that 42 Members shand.l concur in the ne-
cessity of the continuance af this measure, than to
hale merely the Report of 21 Members selected by
the Noble Lurd and his colleagues.
Lord MILTON said some circumstances rendered
the appointment of the old Committee advisable ;
they would carry on the sequel of the examination
with more expedition than a new Committee. Bu:
then, on the other hand, a new Committee would
give more satisfaction to the country—(!leer, hear).
He was inclined to think that the most advantageous
course would be to mix up new names with the add
Committee. He did not wish to exclude the Mini-
sters of Vie Crown from the Committee. He could
see no harm in giving the Committee a power to cu.
mine witnesses. He should vote against the minion'
of the Noble Lord.

ST J. NMPART and Mr. BATHURST explained.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY conceived that it
would not be satisfactory to the country if the same
names were appointed. With that view he should
vote for the motion of the Noble Lord. that if passed
other names might be added to the Committee.
The SPEAKER said this would be impracticable.
The House had already decided that the Committee
should consist of 21 Members. It. therefore. there
existed in the House the 21 Members who were on
the former Committee, this was conclusive, that no
others could be appointed ; and the only Member of
the former Committee not now in the House was the
late Attorney-General.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY then declared thit
he should vote for the motion of the *tight Honour..
able Baronet.

The Gallery was then cleared far a divisions when
the numbers were—For the motion of Lord Castle-
reagh. 126—Against it. 66—Majority, 60.

UNITARIANS IN IRELAND.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved for leave to bring
in a 11111 to extend that toleration to Unitarians in
Ireland, which they now enjoyed in this country.'
The laws ditected against persons who did not be-
lieve ie the Trinity, enacted in England in the in
William and Mary, and 2d of Anne, ch. 2, had been
'extended to Ireland. `What Ite *wished to do was,
to extend to Ireland the 53d Geo. 111 ch. 150, by
' which these intolerant laws had been tepealed is
England; and also the 19th Geo. 111. chap. 4, by
which, instead of a declaration ti belief in the Divi•
nity of Jesus Citatirr, a declaration was admitted in
certain cases, of a belief that the Scriptures contained
the revealed will of GOD.

Mr. PEEL And Mr CROKER doubted whether
the Act of 51d Geo. 111. did not actually extend to
Ireland.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT was of opinion it did not.
Lamm given to bring in the Bill.

DUILIN DOCKS
Sir HENRY PARNELL said, that an expendi-
ture of at least halt a of money was about to
be lavished in erecting new Docks at Dublin ; when
Government might purchase from the Irish Grand
Canal Company, for £60.000, Docks fitted to contain
five hundred sail of shipping. His object was to
save the country from so enormous an expense.—
He then moved for the Estimate of the Expense of
the new Docks.
Mr. PEEL agreed to the production of this Esti-
mate. When he went to Ireland, he found the
ground for the erection of these Docks had been al-
ready purchased, near the.Custorit House, at an ex-
pense of ilfloo.ooo. The Canal Company's Docks
were only calculated to contain boats for inland na•
trig-ad= ; and it was the opinion of Mr. Rennie, that
they were totally unsuitable for the reception of ships
employed in foreigo or coasting trade.
Mr. PONSONBY wished to know by whom and
by what authority the ground for these Docks was
purchased ?
Mr. PEEL repeated, that when he went to Ire-
land, he found this ground already purchased, and
of course by the former Administration. The best
way would be to move for returns of that expense.
-
Mr.
WELLESLEY POLE said, that this pur-
chase was made before the Administration to which
he belonged: either in that of the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite, or of the Duke of Wellington,
which succeeded it.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that a demand had
been made for £l5OO to purchase this ground. from
the Administration to which he belonged ; but the
proposition was not acceded to when the Administra-
tion was changed. Thus far he was accountable,
and no farther. The expense to which these Docks
were to be carried was considered in Ireland as a great
waste of public money.
Mr. W. POLE said, this wotk had not been no-
, de:taken until after the bon mature deliberation, and
in consequence of the opinions of the most eminent
engineers.
Mr. V. FITZGLItALD agreed to the motion.
The rent of the stores in the Docks would soon repay
the expense to the Public.
The motion was then agreed to.
• Mr. PONSONII/ then nntoete for ad ateouht of
all Minis of PioatrExpejided in the wertioo of Wet
1). cks an Dublin, and of the authorities under which
thole eapendituses were anat.,— Ordered.
Land sldiffi.
On the motion for gain/ Oto s, Conunittee os the
Leetllginei roof Races- Bill, Sir J. GRAHAM ob.

'jetted to the till, is !eliding b 4 anhbi all sititienierits.
betwon landlords and tenants of Lead Mines. He
moved, that the House gd into the Commit-
•er that da, kit rhombi.
Lord LASCELLES contended, that thin sill did
not go to inituduc:e any thing nein as to the property
.n Lead' Mines. It merely went to rh/ite that law
ailicii the proprietors 01 Lead Mines had been accns.
corned to pas for 60 years to the li or Rites.
Mr. D. GILBERT said, that custom had always
Prevailed in the mines of the %Vest of England ; and
he saw ro reason why it should not preiail in the
lifurth i,F Enitland also.
Mr. BANKES opposed the Bill. After some fur-
ther discussion the House divided—For going into
the Comtnittee 28—Against it 71—Maj rity against
going into the Committee 43.—The Bill was conse.
quently lost.—Adjourned at Half.past Twelve;

to ir• ,f, ir itled
1 fr,e , e..1,1r ?
pent, A 2;: 4111)t
bet- fuse hither'
I on:mended (le
j be i•ad felt it h
I 6)4. The eirc
I materially itiffe
y! 'hurled A
I merit !or p•il
rind: it w4S I
Executive Gor
from ,aternal c
rind the ells,
ready to br fur
intrigue, had
Empire. Wei,
boo it appetite,
surrender of thr
Mute were non
rct conceive .1 i
ti lo lining away
I to ihe present I
wicked Mini,tet
trir that undu,
off, rd him, he
hoc, in some
precv.leo, for th
Thiniuli lie did
for 11,e sake of I
in the cnuntry I
riming on, w
IA ihrwigh,.ut
be too much tai
liah.•,s C.rputs
diff,rence het wt
the nin:,t ...tip at
the kora de-cac
iot,e Inds 01
tion, Ira A sus'
thanked ?nowt
What had we g
libenws ? Wh:
hi, en lilting uf
bei:eg d: paved I
If the strsprnsic
hid a rip, so
'lnn.' ~ C. ,w
it,.:. :. NI. ,0
tee aiimistee b
bp. Oink fir,
itude;i.,g this
Rehr stiffen&
donoelvea, the,
kle.W. SMI'l
rill. House of
a stag deeiste
evidence had le
blouse than wh
dice House ml
bask 'halt the
committed to t
Wed wrong.
Committee- wa
therefore that e
Clainittee. I
Magistrate of P
when the Gran
the allegations
the House, tali
tit the Colman
cultradictft II
Was founded,
dated, not MI
the admit wt
that no such d
Rod in towt I
the pt tease opt
isited that ff
4MA) As be c
to prediction.,
Pl4crs he did I
&Foto itself—it
Which had .of ci
ether blouse s
wee of the we
aunt die bpi,
inbietily take
Ihtt there exit
Whit As his IX
theeid f—suel
km' informers
le could out
tight tr, be pit
Welt Influence(
red the Cima
%,:11013, t her r 1
non. Friend
ter COnintitte
ICI to deprive
•
60 Cimsttentr.,
tttv,. but .o I
i', istrr X
Mr. PRO i'
1,
l n'tte awash
t %tubers
,
ghtt Case, *oil
it .
Ciiittli• Ty sirl
ketllS;Matling
I
rct confide
tbe Committee
C ivirtant nos
I ler occasie
4g, and ha
1. '`
C"stat to
humiliating
e 41the was not
lice, it not
i 'lid sense o
s 41'. LAME
sew Conntol
e le the Susp
e thing altogtl