Star.
London, England, 1828-05-17 00:00:00

VORRIGN AFFAIRS.

car R. WILSON gave notice that on Monday next be should
czu the attention of the [louse to the State of our Foreign Relations.
NAVY EATINI ATEA.
peCIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER yaid,that
in moving that the Speaket leave the Chair, he should
;tothat it was his intention to move the Estimates
ole year through the House, before they received the
Ro,oir of the Finance Committee, to which those Esti-
11A been referred. It had been thought that the
committee would have been able to finish their Report,
,0 that the Estimates may have been founded upon
than, and yet carrried through the House before that
rod of the Session at which it would be hopeless to
sect a full attendance of Members to such a subject.
s,hiectf, however, had been offered to the Committee
viiicti had required their mature consideration, and
ebicli consequently had delayed the Report, and he
had the consent of the Committee to the course he now
emposed-
' Lord ALTHORP said, that the Chairman of the
Committee not being in the House, he rose to say that
the Committee concur red in the Estimates being brought
!Award before their Report was made to the House.—
ile could not take a more favourable opportunity Orin
the present to bring forward one subject of the greatest
importance to the Navy. He alluded to the impress-
meld of seamen. On this subject 'he differred in opinion
with many of those with whom he concurred on most
ether topics of a public nature. In his opinion it would
be impossible to maintain the naval superiority of the
country, it would be utterly impossible to man the
ti,et as quickly as necessary, without a power of pro-
curing the compulsory services of the seamen. Many
inogi, however, might be done to mitigate the evils of
ibelstem. But for impressment, it would be impos-
,iole at the commencement of a war to man a
feet with adequate rapidity, and the commerce of the
cycn:ry might suffer serious inconvenience. He did not
ii.Or how the subject might rest in America, but there
' sat no naval power of Europe that did not possess
ore such power of availing itself of the compulsory
labour irf its seamen. There certainly were evils of
rim magnitude attached to the system, and amongst
tb•sesere, first, that seamen, when not afloat, were
bhliged to conceal themselves for protection, and pos-
aned little more of liberty than criminals; and se-
condly, that men on board ships of war were obliged
lobe debarred the privilege of going on shore, in order
in prevent their desertion. These evils might be very
comiderably removed. He should advise that where a
%Aar haJ voluntarily served a certain time on board a

min -1 way, he should be protected for life from the
impress. This would have the effect of inducing men
to enter the King's service. Were this plan adopted.
he felt quite sure that the superior comforts of ships of
war stnuid induce seamen in many cites to prefer them
to merchant vessels. The pressgangs would thus be
sholished. He had merely mentioned this subject, in
the hope that it would attract the attention of those who
me officially connected with the Navy.
Sir G. COCKBURN said he acquiesced in the senti-
- the Noble Lord, and hoped that no reasonable
would be omitted to procure as much as possible
ry services of seamen, and' consequently to do
with the impress. The country could not safely
up the power of impressment; but the Govern-
: the responsibility upon them, to show the ne7
of it whenever they resorted to the practice.—
had been done to'cleesease the impress, and per-
iod), by granting the Mimeo pensions for services,
they forfeited sf 644 ,Cleserted: The plan of the
. Lord would he inimacticable, from the difficulty
ascertaining that the man who possessed the certifi-
service was the Man who had actually served.
cruel to seize upon merchant seamen, who were
ing to their homes after a long voyage, and send
seem board men-of-war, where they were frequently
lepton foreign stations for six or seven years. The
of seizing upon them also was attended with
they were beaten and dragged along if they
resistance.
~ YORKE said he should be the first to raise his
in favour of .any effectual remedy proposed for
„ law of impressment.
MABERLY said, it Must bt recollected that in
course of last year Mr. Canning promised that the
whole of the Estimates should be submitted to the
. Committee belpie they were prepared for the
adopuon of this House. The Finance Committee had
a good deal of evidence, which should be stated to the
House before any vote was now called for. It should
also be remembered, Opt the Committee could only
'their reports as to the period when we were in a
of peace; but then circunistaoces might occur
nich would demand tin increase of our forces. Before
' tote was called for, the Government should state
there was any probability of war, or whether the
o
of the Estimates could be dealt with as if we
have a continuance of she state of peace.
CALCRAFT expressed the pleasure he felt at
6 what fell from the Noble Lord on the subject
the impressment of seamen. But it was clear that
bad the right of impressruent.: whFn the,
of the State required it. just on the same
.• that it called out the militia in a time of war.
twat service was much more popular with seamen
-rY respect, becauie all their wants and comforts
attended to than formerly ; and If we were to
ear, the Royal Navy would be better manned than
.4311) former period. He was not surprised that, after
14145 e of three months, they were obliged to be called
:Porto vote these estimates, without any report from
Stance Committee, because he was fully persuaded
,ttle mode of inquiry which that Committee adopted
"'ld not possibly allow of any such investigation
' the present Session. He objected to Honourable
'is who belonged to that Committee, making
the information they had derived as such, because
who did not belong to it would be placed at a dis-
sage. lie had no objection to the estimates, if
Rae upon the same scale as those presented to the
-for the first half of the year.
sr
H. PAItNELL said, that as the discretion and
igenceof the Finance Committee had been ques-
' was anxious to say a few words in their win-
He thought the House would agree with
there had been no want of diligence, when be
them, that during the six weeks preceding the
Recess, during which there were 36 sitting days,
,ittee held 34 sittings ; that during the whole
since their appoiiittisent they held 47 sittings ; that
xamineci,B witnesses; that they had ordered
than 337 accounts ; and that the evidence printed
.s Moment extended to 2,000 folio sheets. Then
to the discretion with which they had proceeded,
1141 acted upon the principle of making no Report
House. without being in per:s*o of every rbinr,
oold be soled to . them mil OF important'l

subjects coming u ider their investigation. Immediately
upon their meeting, the Estimates of the three great
bran:hes of expenditure, the Army, NAvy, and Ord-
nance, were laid before'them ; and supposing they might
be able to report upon one branch alter the Recess, they
restricted their inquiries to the Ordnance. However,'
it was no,• found that the investigation necessary went
into such a length as to render it impossible for .them
end the inquiry in time for that purpose: He had no
doubt that the course adopted by the Commitstee was
the most discreet one, and such a one as would receive
the approbation of the House. •

Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, he was glad that,the public.
were not to be led to expect an early and alnelnature
Report from the Committee. He was haiiPy th*t an.
thing had occurred to Maw forth an admission that the
Government were proposed to look at thelreat evil of im-
ptessment, with a view to some muditicaiion nr removal.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, he was extremely desirous
that the public should be informed of the .manner in
which the Finance Committee had pet-ft-timed the duties
assigned to them by the House. The sittings h.ed been
as frequent as was stated by his Hon. Friend, and at
the meetings of the Committee there were hardly ever
law than twenty Members present, a thing scarcely-
beard of in Committees. They were generally assembled
within five minutes after twelve o'clock, and sat until
four—the period at which the House met. He would
therefore, put it to the Hon. Member for Wareham. tO
say, how it was possible for a Committee to discharge
its duties with more diligence than they had attempted
to do. If the object in appointing the Committee.wis
to ascertain the extent of retrenchment and reform, of
which the public establishments were susceptible; he
was sure the House would deem it advisable that the
various subjects should be fully examined, and every
information obtained, before any conclusions were coma
to, rather than to have an earlier, but a necessarily im-
perfect Report.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, that so far from his anticipa-
tions being contradicted by what had fallen from the
members of the Finance Committee, he now de.paired
of ever seeing a termination to their labours.
Mr. HUME said, that the result of the course adopted
by the House in the appointment of the CoMmittee
proved the correctness of his views, when he recom-
mended that several Committees should be appointed,
each basing the investigation of some partictilar de-
partment assigned to it. He could assure the Honout-
able Member for Wareham, that in discussing these
estimates, he would bli:solte as likely to possess infor-
mation as if he'had bet Won the Committee; for the
course pursued of elitlitnitig none but official men, who
always leaned to the state of things which they had
been used to, instead of calliqg before them persons of
a different eescription, rendered it impossible that they
should get at the real mate of the establishment*,
and what it was possible to dispense with. Not that Le
meant to accuse any individual connected with the Gw•
vet nment, of withholding or throwing obstacles in the
way of information. On the contrary, they had bees
most anxious that the fullest inquiry should be made,
and that every facility should be given to it. • The
House would now only have to regret having poit;:
ported the Estimates at all; for they sere just .as
able to dispose of them now as when they were first'
laid upon the table at the beginning of the Session.—
For all that he bad seen in the Committee, not one
reduction in the estimates of this department would
be recommended. It rested with the Government to
decide, after all, whether the. recommendation of
the Committee should be carried into effect or not i
and it was therefore for them to make the reductions
which the exigencies of the country required at once.
As far as the investigations of the Cominittre had gone
at present, he had seen nothing which proved that (if,
we continued at peace) any establishments were required
beyond those of 1793. He did not charge the Govern.'
ment with any desire to stifle inquiry, for they had
shown the greatest willingness to promote it; but if the
Committee proceeded as they wete now doing, he was
convinced that the country would be greatly disap-
pointed at the result of its labours.

RITZ TEM LORDS.

Sir F. BURDETT.here entered, and informed the Spurn that
be had attended the House of Lords to request a conference with
that House, and that their Lordships would send au answer by
Messengers of their own.

A Message from the Lords then announced that their Lordships
bad- agreed to the conference, as requested by that House in their
Message of that day, and that their Lordships bad appointed the
same to take place on Monday nest at half past five o cluck, in the
Painted Chamber.

The Lords Messengers having retired, the Debate en going into
Committee on the Navy Estimates was resumed.

Mr. V. FITZGERALD observed, the Honourable
-
Member for Montrose had stated that it was impossible
for'the Finance Committee to diminish the amount of
the estimates, and added, that the right of determining
that point rested with his Majesty's Government. Now
he (Mr. V. Fitzgerald) must say, the decision upon this
subject rested neither with the Finance Committee nor
midi his Majesty's Government, but with Parliament.
There was no wish on the part of the Government to
throw any difficulty in the way of inquiry, or to prevent
the examination of any person able to give information.
The Honourable Member for Aberdeen bad stated hie
main principle to be, that the Naval Service required
no more men now than was required in 1792. Now,
without considering that the Naval powers of other
countries bad grown up, and assumed an important
aspect, be would merely leave the House to consider
whether the principles of the Honourable Member were
just or not. He believed that the best course the Fi-•
canceComrnittee could bare taken was to recommend,
this grant to be received by the House,withoat making
any report, which at present they were not prepared
to make.

Mr. WILMOT-HORTON observed, that the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen had informed the House, that
the House and the country would be disappointed, as
to the statement to be hereafter made by the Finance
Committee. If there were any disappointment, it would
be the fault of the Honourable Member, and those
Honourable Gentlemen by whom his views were sup-
ported, for they bad often held out to the country ideas
that the expenses of the establishment of the country
Could be curtailed to the extent of between seven and
eight millions. If, therefore, the public were disap-
pointed, itAionkrbe in consequence of such representa-
tions. kJ DC Wilmot,.Horton) would say, the
House and the country must certainly be dissappointed,l
if St were instituted :that vie could keep faith with the
public credit and jehsioner, and yet effect a saving
Oihetween seven and 'eight millions. There could not
be a shadow of the foadatiott tot such a supposition,
and he entered his 'Patin igiiust it. He considered it
would be unworthy of tie House to take the partial case
of a particular year, and upon that partlkl Cate to reduce
Our establishment. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen
!lad asserted, that the Finance Committee had yet only
l'aciked Into some matter, without acting upon any.—
Now, certainly, it might be said of the Ordnance De-
partment, that it had been picked as clean as possible.
The Nuance Committee had abeeadi dotte much g 004,1

and it was not just to speak of it as being unworthy the
conftdecce of the country.
Mr. BARING dilf,rcd very materially both from the
110,1001 able tiember for Aberdeen and the H,,nour.ible
Nlenoer • pp .si:e (Mr.Hor ton), the first of whom wished
to mike appear to the House that little good was to
he espected trim the labours of the Finance Committee.
0.1 the contrary,, he considered that much good would
be. done by it ; and that, although it had not yet sug-
gested any reduction in-our naval force, it had already
tifected considerable and important saving. Whether'
this assertion was borne out would be seen hereafter.
Bat the House must not think that the Committee
had been for several days looking into those mat-
ters, yet had done no good by their labours. He
thought the country would derive considerable benefit
from their appointment. This Committee was one of the
few Committees of. Finance that had been formed on
fair principles—one of the few which was not hampered
by some partizan of Government, who upon all ques-
tions whipped up with some counter-proposition, and
carried it by his majority. The Committee was per-
fectly fair--every question was fairly put, and fairly
answered." If the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had had
the appointment of 'that Committee, he (Mr. Baring)
thought its Members wete just those he would have
selected.

'' Mr. WILMOT- HORTON, in explanation, observed,
tlfat'he only referred to a contemplated saving of seven
or 8,000,0004 out of 14,000,0001.—a reduction which
was utterly impracticable.
'',CoIoneIDAVIES thought that considerable saving in
the public expenditure might be effected by the Finance
Committee, although he considered that the saving of
seven or eight millions, or anything like that sum, was
totally out of the question. He hoped the evidence
taken before the Finance Committee was to be printed.
Mr. WOOD said, the statements which he understood
had been laid before the Committee as to past and pre-
sent years, and years that were to come, was of a very
gloomy character. By that statement it appeared the
country was getting deeper and deeper into debt and
difficulty All those statements and anticipations, it
must be remembered, were formed under the idea that
the country was to remain at peace; but what would
the consequences be if a war were to arise? what pro-
vision was to be made against such a calamity—a cala-
mity which was not probably far distant? He thought
that such statements had been laid before the Finance
Committee as ought to induce them to oppose demands
like the present; and he would ask if the House could
consider itself as acting justly towards the people, whose
representatives they were, if they voted any Estimates
which were. not really and of necessity required?
' Mr. WILMOT-HORTON explained, that he had
said the country was bound to keep up those establish-
mems its which it was pledged, but not one word upon'
the subject of Financial Inquiry before the Committee.
Lord HOWICK thought the House might feel dis.
appointed ; for when these estimates. were granted for
six months, it was under the understanding, and in the
expectation, that at the end of that time satisfaction
would be afforded as to the necessity for their con-
tinuance. Ile considered that the House had placed
too much dependence on the Finance Committee, and
that the Houle and the country had been mistaken as
to tlie exact province of that Committee. He differed
from tlie Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton)
who had stated, that whether. he had the means or not,
our establishments should be kept up; he thought we
should first have the means, and then maintain our
establishments.
-Mr. HERMES , differed completely from the view
taken by the Noble Lord, and thought not one farthing
cf Revenue ought to 'exist, unless required for the pub-
lic service. The Constitutional course invariably pur-
sued by the House of Commons was this—to consider,
first, what was necessary to the honour and dignity of
the country, and then to determine how and what sum
should be raised. - It was not to be expected that per-
fect harmony should exist in the Finance Committve;
but in that Committee he had seen the strongest deter-
mination manifested to obtain every means on all sub-
jects, of coming to a conclusion the best for, and the
most satisfactory to the country. He was, therefore,
surprised to hear that Committee attacked as it had
been by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, and to hear
bin call-upon the House to throw aside its confidence
in that Committee. If the Honourable Member for
Aberdeen had been dissatisfied, he ought to have pointed
out at additional information could have been ob-
taine f'and what additional evidence could have been
I
collected. The Honourable Member for Preston (Mr.
Wood) had made a somewhat garbled statement of cer-
tain facts that had been laid before'the Committee. He
(Mr. Herries) protested against their being taken as ac-
curate, and would show their incorrectness when the
proper opportunity occurred.
Mr. MABERLY said that his lion. Friend (Mr. Wcod) had
alluded to a docUment that was erroneous.

Mr. WOOD explained. The Right Hon. Gentleman had ap-
plied Whim the expres►ion of " garbled statement." He was
incapable of garbling any statement. • •
Mr. HERItIES did not intend to use the word " garbled" in
any unpleastust manner. He merely adopted it as a word to express
his idea that the statement was erroneous.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, that it was not the
practice of that House to consider the• means of the
country before they voted supplies. It was for the
Crown to determine this in the first instance, and the
Commons to vote the supply in the other. Did the
House, if the country were insulted, inquire it there
was money enough in the Exchequer to defray the ex-
penses attendant upon a war? The lion. Member
wits glad a Committee had been appointed, but he
thought that too much had been put upon them. He
was greatly pleased that he did not belong to that
Committee, because he thought that the public would
be greatly disappointed ip the result of their labours.
It would be. better, perhaps, that the Committee
should be 'dissolved, and the inquiet instituted in that
House. Questions had been brought forward before the
Committee, which be thought should nct have been
brought before them. He thought it was originally in-
tended that the Committee was to inquire into the re-
venue of the country;, but be understood that the question
of our colonial policy, our foreign policy, the fortifica-
tion of our foreign possessions, &c. were discussed by
the Committee. The Honourable Member would just
as soon refer these matters to •4 my Uncle Toby, or
Corporal Trim," as the Fiisance Committee. Their
labours should have been confined to pounds, shillings,
and peace, and show to the country that there had been
no improvident waste of the public money. The prin-
cipal object which had hitherto occupied the Finance
Commipee, was the Ordnance Department. Now, he
had understood that the Noble individual now at the
head of the Government had previously reduced every
thing which could be reduced in that department ; but,
he (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) thought, as,this was an inquiry
of science, it was beyond the•reach of the Committee,
and that the public service might in consequence suffer
from it. On the whOle, as the subject had been com-
mitted to the Committee, it was better that they should
leave it where it tret,•and not partially speak of it In
that House.
141',PALMEAs ape Member of the Committee, said,

that the questions of Poreign and Colonial Polity wefe
not c 'nsideredby the Committee—pnestion, questidn}
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said that this Com-
mittee ought n, t to supersede the functions of trm
House, and that it was their duty io compel his Mai-
jesty's Ministers to come down with a distinct proposi-
tion to relieve the exigencies of the country before they
corvented to the Supply.
The House then resolved itself Into a Committee.

Sir G. CLERIC; in rising to propose the Navy Esti-
mates, obsei'ved, that one-half of the 'Estimates had

been al►eady voted, in the expectati:in that the. Com-
mittee of Finance would make its Report before that
ss hole would be required. As it now seemed to be
agreed that the Report would not be made during,the
preent Session, it became his duty to move for the re-
mainder of the estimates, which were taken At as low a.
rate as the circumstances of the' country would admit.
The number of seamen required was 30,000, inclusive
of marines ; and he thought no person who attended to
the subject could wish for any reduction of that
amount. It W 45 true the country was at peace; but
on looking to our connexions in every part of the.world,
on consideting the naval force that was necessary to
protect our commerce in •arious parts, and especially
in the Levant and in the West Indies, the Committee
would see'that the estimate was not over-rated. The
Hon. Member for Montrose had stated that there was no

occasion for a greater number of men now than in 17.9,
the present being a period of profound peace. But though
we were at peace, it was evident that our relations with

other countries required the addition that was proposed,
and he, as well 41 the Hon. Alderman, seemed to forget
the extent to which piracy was carried on in this W.t.et
Indies, and the complaints which had been made against
the Government fur not taking measures to petit down.
It was also to be remembered that the state of affairs in
the east of Europe, and on the southern continent of
America, required such a:force to be kept up. But
though it was the intention of Government to keep up
a force of 30,000 men, the estimates were 130,0001. less
than those of last year. That fact was sufficient to show.
' that the utmost attention' had been paid to practical
economy, and he was confident that the most rigid
economy would be. observed in all 'cases by those to
whom the disposal of. these funds was entrusted. The
principal reduction consisted of 130,0001. which was
saved principally out of the wages of artificer:employed
in the dockyards, and the sums expended in the pur-
chase of stores. The savings from those sources
amounted to 150,0001. but the addition made to the
Marine Corps reduced the sum to what he had stated
before. It was also to be observed, that a large portion
of the expense attached to the TranspOrt Service arose
from the increased number of convicts sent to New
South Wales. The extensive new works at present carrying
on was another source of expense, though as small a
sum as possible was taken for that purpose. Tire ex-
pense under this head was chiefly incurred by keeping
walls in repair, and other works liable to great injury
from neglect. He would now conclude with moving
the Resolution, and the Committee would bear in mind
that as the former estimate was taken on the calcula.
non of six lunar months, the pr-eient was taken at seven
lunar months, to make the year complete.- The Hon.
Baronet then moved a Resolution proposing' a lane of
30,000 seamen; influding 9,000 marines, for the-seriiees
of the present year.
Sur H. PARNELL did not see any objection to the
vote proposed under. the present circumstances of the
country ; but if it was intended as a permanent peace
establishment, he thought it was taken by much too
high. That, however, *as not the occasion for entering
into the reasons upon -which he grounded his opinion,
fr.r it would open the whole question to discussion.—
There was a part of the service to which even now he
thought reduction might be applied. The Coalmine°
had considered the expediency of keeping up the coast
blockade, and had examined evidence upon the subject.
The result of their inquiry, in his mind for one, was an
opinion that it might be dispensed with. lie would.
therefore move as an amendment, that inttead of a vote
for 30,000 men, the Committee should come to a vote
for 28,000. As to the reduction which appeared in the
Estimates for the present year, it would be no great
saving to the public, for there was evidence to show that
it could not be continued. It arose principally from
savings made in the purchase of stores which most be
made up afterwards, so that it was not a bona
,fide re-
duction. With regard to the transport service, some
increase io the expenditure might be necessary, but he
had a great objection to the manner in which it was at
present conducted. The practice was, when additional
ships were required, to take them into the establishment,
which was attended with greater expense than if they •
were merely hired for the occasion. For these reasons,
he shrruld conclude by moving as an amendment, that
the vote be limited to 28,000 men.
Sir J. YORKE said, that after the various observa-
tions that had been made respecting the Finance Com-
mittee before the Speaker had left the Chair, it was not
his intention to offer any thing on that subject; he should
merely confine himself to the proposition of the Chaie-
man of that Committee to reduce the rote under con-
sideration by 2,000 men, a redaction which he should
oppose. He was convinced that..if occasion should arise
we ought to have the means of- fitting out' two or thee*
line of battle ships, in order to give weight to any repre 7
sentations we might deem it necessary to make. The
Finance Committee might have done its duty, and done
it well—but it was his opinion, that Government had
concurred in its appointment not so much from any
expectation of servite to the country from it, as to
answer some other purpose. It was on the subject of
our shipping, however, that he intended to trouble the
Committee with a few observations ; and he should in the
first instance stare, that it appeared to him a most sin-
gular and extraordinary fact, that two or three experi-
mental squadrons had been built, fitted out, and em-
ployed : and that the command of the different vesstis
had been confided to the very officers under whose direc-
tions they had been constructed, each of whom, in fact,
jockied his own horse—(A laugh). It was extraordinary,
that no report of the results had been made by thole
officers; he hoped, therefore, that the Lord High Ad •
-
iniral would give directions to have that omission sup- -
plied. Another question to which he should apply him- .
self, respected the manner in which the employment of
Officers was conducted. The first paragraph of the
Order of Coupcil of the 18th of July, 1827, signed
with the revered name of " J. W. Croker"—(A laugh)
stated that Captains should be deemed eligible to
promotion if they should have served in that capa•
city for a period of four years in time of war—of
five years in time of war and peace altogether— or ,
of six years in time of peace. It appeared to him ex-
traordinary and objectionable, therefore, that the merits
and character of the whole Of the Captains of the
Navy should be decided on by the Council of the
Lord High Admiral. Now, there were eight hun-
dred Captains on the list, and fifty ships only in com-
mission—so that the Committee would see, that a great
number of years
,must elapse before those Officers could
qualify for promotion. (The Hon. and Gallant
bee here rektrecito the case of us Oth&eri. a Capitals

...now. •

pc CI-IAM
in moving the
pre
mise that i
()title year thi
1/401t e the
roes hJd bee
committee WI
0 that the 7
the and ye
rriosi of the
es, ect a full ;
sltsjects, host
trisich had r
which conseq
ba.l the conse
reoposed.
toed ALT
Committee ric
the Committee
!Award befor
lie could not
the present to
importance to
Meld of seam
with many of
oiler topics c;
be impossible
country, it
t.let as quick
curing the co
hOWei
the system.
!isle at the
kit with ode
cventry mirth
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whose commission, as such, was dated the 27th ot
April, 1801, who had not, by live menths, completed
the the 'term ot service required by the Order of Council to
qualify him for promotion). The Hon. and Garnet
Member concluded by giving his support to the origi'
nal vote, and expressing his hope, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, soul&
proceed in a fair open course—tbat he would not mystify
his accounts and documents,.and that his balance sheet'
would appear to advantage, when competed with those
of his predecessors. - •
Sir G. COCKBURN said, with respect to the
checking of smuggling, he had no doubt it might be
done by Custom-house Offiaers and the Preventive
Service; but in giving his evidence before the Com-
mittee be hid informed them that the men were neces-
sary for the public service. If the 2,000 men were
taken away, ship, must be put in motion. Now, the
Coast Blockade was of essential service, and, in fact,
was a saving to the country ; he therefore should object
to the amendment. With respect to the reduction of,
work, he was not disposed to go the length of the Hon.
*Umbers. It was true, es stated by the Gallant Of-
ficer, that great pains bad been taken by the Experi-
mental' Squadrons, which bad had the ',most beneficial
results; the sloops, .of war had, in fact,
outstripped—in sailing the fiigates. on the old con-
struttititt: Ile did not know that it was the piactice to
tepOrt the proceedings of the squadfoCituwat the same
time; there .was no :Objection to, make se report.
The experiments were going on, .I„be Hon. Officer
then-,explained the pr ac t tce 'ad ver ted respect of
promotions of Captains to Flag ship: Ohjettion had
been 'made respectrog therm:n*l°lton pf,YOuncr OffiCers,
to Pay; ibetit 1745; in- conseqUeoee Witielh, ar-
range yenti were made at that Write by- an Ordet in
Co,nicil, that OfSc ei.a of this acicl.iiiiihifu'ere- made .re-
tired. Rear Admit alai- or, as they wi,teAin Yel-
I This preoud fur fatly ,years, end- then
this erringeinent was. made, that allofficers
served the proper time in a preceding war, should be
entitled to an aetive Flag.—that is to sift.; the 'superan
nualsori`vias made effective. D:its enltleairci4 respect
guhitiod, and 'then it was drernoned toat a
entain se,eiie in a .pasticsilai.. sank should be ;et,
foenied, trod that the Captain.shireld have commanded
a shtplin order to enable hrm to obtain a Flag. Tire
period of service was "four years In war, or in peace
five or six years. At chi peace of Amiens, the Freet
was never. completely-paid off, and this fact created
some doubts as to the promotions. It was tl*n firer-
mined that the two wars should be continuedoir taiten
as one. With respect to qualifications. twaibirds have
already qualified. There was one Officer—he did not
know whether it was the one alluded to' by
Officerbut he had been written to, and he preferred
being, made a Captain of Greenwich H• spital, rather
tbm a Rear Admiral.
Adbilnd EVANS seas one of the Yellow &Wide, Whitt for-
' • •
inetty, was a term of reproach.
Sir G. COCKBURN. assured the Gallant Admiral. that he did
not know that be Byes in the House; nor had he ant intention, in
using the term, to use it offensively. lie .beggutl.the Host. Ad-
•
mini% pardon. •
'Admiral EVANS contended, that a 'captain ha a right to look
to his flag. .The Navy was a most important. branch (dike:service.
If an Officer bad served, with an unblemished character, through
the gradations of rank to that
..of Captain, he was to belnade- an
Admiral. The Gallant Admiral went through the lief, and .showed
that many of the Commanders were merely annuitants on the
country, and never were entrusted with the command•of Ships:
Lord A LTHORP thought, that in reducing the' number of
men, much difficulty and some jealousies Weald arise ; and there-
fore be was ot opinion, as retarded the prevention of smuggling, it
Would be better that the duty devolved upon the Board of Customs
The Coast Blockade was not ant toed a school faseoScers as ano-
ther Service. , •
CUOKEE was not aware of any bickerings in respect et
the prisons employed in putting down smuggling. *Either Service'
would act cheerfully upon any information—the Preventive Strafe.
was manned fropt the King's Service, equally with the Comte
Illecisde. These was great reason for believing that the letter were
better seamen than an equal number of new raised men. When the'
guard ships were appointed for Portugsl. the Commandett asked
for these Mlle inpreftrence. If the men now proposed to be taken
away were restored, it would be the duty of the Admiral: y to man
the guard skips, so that no saving would be made to the country,
should the Amendment be adopted. If the Coast Blockade had
not blvd 444171 when the expedition to Poem; el was sent, Press
Warrants must have been issued to man the ships, the same as in

the Spanish war.
Mr. hih.IIKRLY objected altogether to the estimates, as too
high, and he believed the evidence of the Gallant Admiral (Cock.
turn) would bear him out in his opinion.
' Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought it would be very unwise in
the Committee to agree to the amendment of the Hun. Baronet.
• • 51r. CUR'ruis said, that smuggling bad altogether ceased in
his neighbourhood, and be thought the coast blockade had been the
means of putting an end to it.
Mr. BERNAL d the Resolution.
• Mr. CALCEA FT:d. he could not vote for reducing the
Awn blockade, which was a nursery nil seamen, who were subject
to tie removed, at the shortest notice, to any pan of the world.
Sir 11. PA lINEI.L thought the expense incurred by the Com
Blockade entirely too gnat. He also thought they were not fleece
sere to putting down smuggling, and" thinking as he did, be could
net but oppose the present grant for that purpose.
Su G. COCKBURN said, that in his evidence before the Cnsn.
mince, he had stated tho he thought ihe Coast wight be
dhpessed with, but be did not think smuggling Would be more
atonally put dowp by any other force. .
U DI Rtbought all the enablishmetin of the country entirely
ton large. He could net sanction the opinion that Members of the
Finance, nor any other Committee, were not at perfect libtrty to
We any portion of the evidence taken befinis each Conimiuee. He
thought the honour of the canary Would be best maintained by
eassonty, andretfatervaaing either II VI Army or the Navy. Large
armies end navies were temptations of was, and
,pot the means of
' • evening it. He regretteJ that the Hon. Baronet but not propo-ed
a ginner reduction. He did not think the Hou4could, le justice
to the cenntry, incur ant itlikloiralogspeorplaike =anent state of
,
the Smokes of the country.
. tier C. •COLK said be thought it oreldtl be an injustice to the
Blockade Service dot to say that the Moo awl men bad a very
arduous dirty to perform. . . . •
• Sir J. GRAHAM said he could got vote for the reduction,
which, though Ineosideralk, might cause great inconvesience to
the naval service. In the present alarming state of Europe, it
would be most impolitic in England .to lessen her .naval force,
which was the right an of the country.
4i •Sir J. BRIDGES sup/flirted the Regotudon.
• The Amendment was then put, and lost without a division. Tbe
original Itesolotion was then agreed to.
The nest klesolutien was for the wages of 30,000 seamen for
even months, 514,5001.
Mr. HUME again protested against the number of men now
voted.--The Resolution wasagreed to.
Fur victuals, at the rate of H. 19.3. per rronth for each man,

1156,0001.
In answer to an observation from Sir J. Your,
Sin %CLERK said, the scale of allowance was at present very
needy the same as heretofore.--Agreed to.
To complete the sum necessary fur defraying the expense of the
Salaries of Officers, &c. &c. 1111.8151. 15s. 9d.
Sir J. YORKE wished to know whether it was intended to
beep up the office of Paymaster of the Marine and his eight clerks ?
This charge appeared to him quite unnecessary.
Sir G. CLIME said, he beard with surprise what bad fallen
from the Gallant Officer. There was no office so efficiently filled
as this. He felt quite confident that no change they could make
would be productive of any saving. The expense must still con-
tinue the same with less advantage to the service.
Mr. HUMS said there were two ether offices which might be
reduced. Those of Treasurer and Paymaster of the Navy. It
was in eeidence before the Finance Committee, tbat ten or twelve
clerks might be reduced in the Pay Office. The whole business of
ugh **gat be done fee 5,600 i.
Sir G. CLERK said, some alteration might hereafter be In-
gested by the Committee in .the peewit machinery, but until tbat
ctation was determined upon, a Smaller vbte than the ptesent
coggd egg be proposed. With respect to the Widows Fend, it was
manigedast a very•trifling expense. The amount distributed quay.
bitty, in stuns, was 47120,000, and that at an expense of only .9900.
Sir JOHN IigRESTORD.did Dot think the Paymaster of the
Madan could Is sliapeased with. It wastapossible thathaantiful