Star.
London, England, 1829-03-25 00:00:00

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opener/ tet glisi.Ml-14isk se dair 64
fOlO4lOO. - I
Would instance an Asealresioticeihat mightaoriso.
most Corporations& CriplOin Ws. attacked, who woidd
he necessarily of tbo Establisheidirstligion. Itta Mayor
might, should. this measure. pars into eille4 be fe-Xl•
tholic. What, in such a came cOnlibe eloreridirelees.
than to see the Mayor go to one place of ,wotship:and
Chaplain to another.? The Howoorable Member
ceeeleded •by declaring: his Intention. to propose an.
amendment,- whisk 'would, he hoped, in some degree
give additional security against CatholiC influence.
Mr. MOORllinPpOrted the vie* takes of the clause
by the. Honourable and Gallant Member who had just
sat down. It frequently happened that Mayors and
other °Seers of Corporations sere. Ia oie, ilovesoots
or trustees of Protestant institotioas and estabhohments.
'Now, he should like to know whether-Abet new lona
vation was to be added to that already complained of?
Mr. &votary PEEL would make unitary into the
points suggested by the Honourable Mention'. ::At pre-
sent he was not aware of any power *possessed by
Me:lifters of Corporations to divot the fonds Irons their
original and legal destination t but if his Honourable
and Learned Friend could show hi.n any real danger
that might be incurred, he would most willingly ree
such further security
_as the nature of the care might
require. He thought, however, that the original clause
WAS sufficiently rtrong and comprehensive.

After a few words from Mr. Moose, the clause was agreed to.
The nom clams was—" Provided alio. and be it ensued, that
unitise in this Act contained shall be construed to enable any per.,
sou or persons, otherwise than they are now by law enabled, to.
hold, enjoy, or exercise any dice or place of dignity of, le, or be.
bussing to the united Church of England and bonne!, or tie Church
of Scotland, or any place or once whatever of es bektiegiog to any
of the Ecclesiastical Courts of Judicature of this realm, or any
Cant of Appeal from or review of the sentences of such Court or
Courts; or of or belonging to any Cathedral, or Collegiate or Ec-
clesiastical Establishment or Foundation within the same; or any
aLe or place whatever of or belonging to any of the Universities
of this realm ; or any Ulm or place whatever, or by whatever
name the same nuy be called, ot, in, or belonging to any of the
Colleges or Wits of 'the said Universities, or of the Colleges of
Zoo, Westminster, or WIDCWHICf or my College or School of
Ecclesiastical forocis
ation within ibis realm."

Colonel SIBTHORPE rose to move, as an amend-
.ment, the introduction of a clause to prevent any per-
son professing the Catholic religion from possessing or
exercising, in any way, directly or indirectly, any vote,
pourer, or controul, in or over the application of any
sum or sums of money belonging to, or that might by
bequest, donatiou, or otherwise, belong• to such corr.
ration ; and sh uld therefore move the insertion of the
word " Protestant" before N Ecclesiastical Foundation."
That amendment was necessary because the clause, as
it at present st •nd, only went to prevent the enjoyment
of those benefits. by the Catholics themselves. The
Committee would bee it was equally necessarythat they
abould not possess the power of bestowing it. He
knew a Corporation iu the County of Lincoln (and
there might be other, similarly circumstanced) in which
the whole management of its funds was vested in the
Mayor and about twelve members of the Corporation.
Now, it might happen, in the event of this Bill passing,
that tour or live Cstbulks might • become members of
the Coiporation, and, from the absence of others, have
a majolity in voting away the funds which would this&
he placed at the disposal of persons hostile to the obje
for • bich those funds were created.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said the Honourable end Gals
lent Membet was one of those who would make assures
dna: doubly sure. and had, therefore, proposed to prp.
tia the word 4 Protestint" to a ecclesiastical founds.
Lion," when, is last, no other ecclesiastical kundatips
could be imphesl.- If the Honourable Member %Med
to prevent Romeo Catholics from having the power to
eoteaway the lands of any Corporation, be should have
proposed all aniendnient with such object to the former
ciao..., to which only it was applicable.
Catena SIBTHORM comehdold of the mode is which bk
peerebitioas were received by Honourable Members; bat they
shield not deter him from doing hi. duty. They might *wane
him, it they would, but sun be would die a Protesunt—(Hear; sad
a laugh). The whole Has.. of Commas should set seals& him
so lower his tiag—(Hear. hear).
. Secretary PEEL disclaimed any such intesties.
STANLEY saki. the Honourable sad Gallen Member bad
Mike into another trap be bad set for blastoff le introducing the
ward 4 Protestant' before the Caws of Kees, Wasuninster, and
Winchester, aU et which were Catholic feendadosetttott
antral Has. Members-44 No, Do ;11 64 Westminster b a Pro-
testant foundaties"—(Loud laughter).
Colonel iIIETHORPE—The Hoe. Member bas Mlles ism a
trap himeelf—(Renewed laughter). The Haa. Member was blind
Mose% and we have both fallen lute the ditch tegethert(Laughter).
Alter a few words (cam Mr. JEP.HSON 'althea/L=lTO*
GEN ERA L, the original claum was Agreed to.
The nest clause wets to prevent Roman Catholics from pre-
%ruing buoy ecclesiastical beset*
Mt. Secretary PEEL sai4 that respecting this clause
be had an addition to propose, which would. he trusted,
piopitiate his Hun. Fi tend, the Member for Code Castle
(Mi. G. Baiikes), whose speech on the point he bad pars
moistly attended to. The clause at present, Pro-
vided that nothing herein contained shall extend or
be consirued to extend to enable any person profess-
ing the Raman Cetholic religion to exercise any right
OU presentation whatever," and that whenever the
right of presentation was vested in Catholic, that
Jim a Consmi•sitin. to be appointed by the Crown,
should exercise such right. His Hon. Friend bad sug-
gested that the Ministers el the Croon might be C.a.
tholics, and
,might appoint a Com Mission favourable to
their own view's. To meet that objection he (Mr. See.
Peel) would move an amendment, providing that id the
case in question, instead of vesting the sight of promo-
tation ins canstrission, ii should devolve upon the
Archbishop of Canterbury for the time being.
'Mr. =COURT had kneaded so hero proposed a canoe to
. that precise acct. and should therefore give to the inandelset his
auppen.t.tThe (Mute, as thee asimaded, was then agreed to.
The oast clause 44 Provided able, sad be it tardier mama, im
it shall not be lawful for any puma preteeelei the Roman Csikska
refigioes.directly or indirectly, tfiadelest the Crowe is the ammo.
aunt or disposal of any Ace or reformist, lay or ecciislastfol,lia
the united Church of England and Ireland or March of Scedoad;
and that If any person shall peasant te advise his Majesty, bbl heirs,
or seceseare, or the Lord Uestesant, er load Deputy, or other:
shpt Cfoversor oc.Gtaverogre lrelaad, teething or caw/ft
any sub spolnuasst sr siisyessl, bii.ahall, betas ;emitted mope
by din Nano of law, be deemed &thy eta high mistisimeaminr,'
and disqualified ter ever. from holding may elks, dell or neilkarb:
under the Crown."
Mi. TRANT asked what security .was there that a
Catholic Minister .might not go into the closet of the
Ring and advise him to do that which would be sub-
votive of the Constitution? How would such condlitt
become known ? What evidence could be obtained it;
it on which to convict the offending Minister? *•
:Mr secretary PEEL asked, is reply, what security
we had at present that the. Minister would not 'go into
the King's closet and advise his Majesty to 'delver Lb'
country into.the hands of the French? The proposed
law said Roman Catholics should not give *dike • to this
effect alluded to by the Honourable Member for-Are
ves ; and certainly theerWobid. be the.saWfacilify'ot
reeentionaf bad advice then as.therietisteJ at preeeeht
Mr. TRANI' said, it tbit Right Moosemble Gaidenmewai
fig*, *et there was so setradty at skit wield
ap elsepthess and have see ireserky leibawif, aistait
kid the savoury._
Sr R. IN 01181propesedi the Isdilldes-it iosidserkilb
ottiser
%Mr: MA. dpe_pesvhise se punk lemma
use! *Belle& t "161,10.11!"*41
pact to the el VW Wardellegissei

Tb. elapse se sasseded was then agreed le. •
tre4owNitig ra:sralbstill(ewitalt."l-'11""16. • •
Wilerisis deo ilgbt tat tide Of ArliAlsbeph to their re.
sVW of lisheeps to their *ire,end of.. Deans to
will in Seemed as kelielaaa, kiwi b.'', settled
eat essaalislisd by law; be 'it therefore maned, that him Mil
Aar she mat of this Act it shall sot be lew,lll for any
won than the petsoe thereinto authorised bj law io assume or
Aps the same, Kyle, or thlo of Archbishop
le
prov_ince. Bide"
deny Illshoprie, or Doan of 'my Deanery In BRAM or Iruland.
and fiery versus se offssalog shall 1 for awry web dome forfeit
31Pal *vine at ano huadred pomade
r it INGLIS asked abetter it was meankthat the
fine should be imposed on every occasion that the offence
was committed.or that a person who had once paid the
fine should. be ever afterwards entitled to bold the title?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL replied that far every
time the title was assumed the offence would carry the
consequences with it. •
Mr. MOORE said that the mischief arose not from
the assumption of the title on the part of the individual,
but from its being bestowed by R,oenpq Codiolics.
la reply I. a moo front Sirs
Mr. VBSEY PIiZGERALI.Viaid that in Scotland.
Roman Catholics did not assume:4bl tide. of Bush*,
but Merely of Vicars Apostolic.
Tao Marquis of CHANDOS thought it. would, be
better to omit the clause altogether..
Mr. TRANT said it mereiy offered the Protestants,
the humbug of security, with the additional disadvan.
Cage of Irritation to the Catholics. The Bill eifofded
substantial political power,while it piohibited the title
of 41 my Lord Bishop."
The question
carried that the clams should be pert of is was**
put aod .'
On the titles* being read imposing a penalty of fifty
pounds on any Roman Catholic. ecclesiastic who
cies eke any of the rites or ceremooies of the Roman
Catholic religion, or wear the habits of his ordei, save'
within the the it places of worship of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion or in private hou+es,
Mr. Secretary PEEL slid that this clause would, he
had no doubt, give great satisfaction to religi.us Pan.
tenants, at the same time that it would meet with the
appiob .tmo of R-aman Catholics.
HOLDSWORTH alluded to the appointment
of the Chaplain to the House of Commons, arid of
chaplains to the navy. If Catholic chaplains were al-
lowed to be appointed to the navy it wouldisaise a se-
cond interest so every vessel. He kite* it. •ould gile
great satistactiop to have it undastood that this clause
prevented the possibility of such a circumstance.
Mr. Secretary PEEL observed List the Bill would
mate 110 alteiation in the tasting law with regard to
the appointment of Captains Chaplains; and it the
Speaker appoinied a Raman Catholic Chaplain, he
thought the Crown would not be dispoied towanctioet
the sessional order appropriating a salary.
Mi.TRANT said, that when there were many Roman
catboltc Menthes, in the House, it would not be at all
improbable that they should desire that the Speaker
might appoint a Catholic Chaplaist-The clause was
than agreed to.
On the reading of the clause directing the regime.
Lion of the Jesuits and others belonging so monastic
orders, and their 'Wash* from this kingdom,
Mr. MONCK i.bjected to the severity of the clause,
which 'needed the ancient law of this kingdom in rela-
tion to tounastic orders. The clause as it at present
stood would include the Knights of Malta. which was
composed of some of the first families in Europe. Any
member of that Order landing us England would be
guilty of a misdemeanour under the clause.
Mi. SPRING RICE also opposed the clause. He was
sorry to see new penalties imposed by a Bill, the object
of which was to remove Other odious penalties.
contended that persons belonging to monastic 0,41•19
could do no injury to the Protestat,t establishments of
this country. tiler, wets some fat orders to. bell and
established for charitable purposes which had founded
schools, and the members of which were band by vows
which this hell would affect. -He *sold, deaden.,
propose as an amendment, that those persons who were
not ordained-should be exempted from the operation of
the Bill, or, in other words, that it should not affect lay
persons, though bound by monadic vows. He there..
foie moved that the words w not being laymen" should
be inn: ted.

Mr. STANLEY said he mast protest against this
clans*. I'o6 county (Lancashire) the JeAnts bad is-
aced themselvei warmly in the cause of education.: ind
had also, in times of distress, shown the greatest:kind-
nest to the poor, whose sufferings they strenuouily ea-
cited themselves to mitigate; and therefore feeling that
this clause would injure so useful an institution, he felt
hound to protest against its adoption.
Mr. W. WYNN felt a great objection• to the clause.
' which would exclude learned men from visiting ibis
country if they belonged to the monastic order.. •
•
Secretary of State ought to have power &son lien
license the residence of these individuals in England.
at such times and for such periods as hi deckled ex •
pedieut. Under the clause, as it now stood, however,
there was nu riception; nor no *sustieniiin of the Act
admissible. It was well known that many individuals,'
remarkable for scientific knowledge, ind now resident
in diretent parts of the Continent, were members of
ligious orderV. The order of the enedictinei contained:,
many eminent men, amongst whom be. would mention'
Angelo Mai. whose name as an antiquary was barrens
to every one. It would be mist disgraceful to this'
country if a learned individual Of this desciiptioa syai:
to be driven from Our shOres because he happened to
belong to a monastic order. *
Mr. P. THOhIPSON' thought' the exclusion of itic
Jesuits from this country would be attendawith
mitigated good. That ostler was always opposed to:
civil and religious libesty. and this was felt in every'
Roman Catholic country. In France a great struggle
had long been' retried on to prevent the Jesuits from
monopolizing the establishments for or educatiin of
youth; had ibis opposition on the part of the people of
rance was the result of experience, and of a knowledge
Of the character of the Jesuits. If clause had been
introduced Ica substantive measure. wholly independent
of the genetalseneaaore..of which he entirely approved,
it thould'have his entirnapprobatioo. lo his opinion it
was the best part of the Bill, and be gave It his talon
hearty. support.
bIr.LABOUCIJERE heard the opinions r f the. Hon.
Member for Dover (Mr‘r.Thompson) with regret. He
did not lc:seethe Jesuits, bothe objected to any class of
"persons 'being eieluded from this country alto 'con-
ducted themselves with propriety. Nothing could re-
coocile him to skis clause, which was contras y to the
free; open,,ltill hospitable 'character of the Edglisb
Constitiiiidn.' There were many scientific and learned
pen. IlleOlhefli of religious ordess.and it wctild be paltry
aurdifisgraceful to exclude them friim visionar•England
by this Bill. Tutks, pngans. and infidels wire admissi-
Me to this imattry; and it was highly aiscreditlible only
tir'eleinde ibis'• bound by religious vows., The ofili
•krwhich be (Mr. L.) had ever seen in this country
were someleries ' monks .of the order at St: Bernird..--

in-common wig bib'. tad• Woo ia•
de ttell to tbi•MspPtilitf of those poison' abrOad ; sod
if =roue ofthomozprossed a desire to visit this country ,

• 3"

.•.• ..
• •
.0a scientific or I ,era y pursuits, soh !tai(, .14 Ai .s.k.
man roust feel on beiugnbliged to We Oat i ofsly of his brothel hood tattertii-Rogland; tiletOrhos" MY
ft
liable to floe and imptisphasent, merely becaise, iliiir"
belonged to a religious order.
Mr. Secretary PEEL defended the clause. Theimas
sent 1311 was a measure of Concession 'to 'the ilinisso
Catholics, and should be' met ay persons 'iodating that
religion in the same spirit. The existence of monastic
orders was by no means necessary to the elisiencenr
maintersaiiee of the Roman Catholic religion, or the,
Roman Catholic Chore& There was a vide distinction
between the members of. monastic orders and the sects-
lar Clergy. The' laws of Erie slid were always !Nosed
to Monastic orders, • and' distingoishil between. lig
members of those ordets and the secular 'Clergy. Woe's
the measure pasuedsfor the relit( of the It unati Catholic
Clergy in 1793, the laws against the mortar is orders to
maned in hike, bat they were evaded by meters of
secret trusts, which was an additional reason why there
should be some direct enactment on the stitject—thvit),
Every foreign country had manifesieJ a jeal4usy of
the Jesuits; and, as had been we 1' observe) by the
Member for Dover, in France I great Airtig.tle had
been *carried on to prevent the members of that order
from inotiopo.isinis the eJucation of the people. If
tie Jesuits were excluded fionl other countries, it was
natural to suppose that they weoull resort to this; and
it was too much to expect that this order should meet
that encouragement and protection in a Pro estant
gauntly ~hicks was denied to them in It 'Mao CAIN:Mc
Pe countries. It was cons/ascent with good policy that
every precaution should be, taken with respece co the
introduction of those religious orders into this country ;
and. cousides ins the nature of thisßill; every Satishiction
ought to be given to those who entertained .apprehen-
sions as to the citn.equences of those mmtastic oicle.ta
being established here. These was a law already in t vs:-
vice for the pr. vention of Jesuit establishae.et.ts, but it
was not found effective. -There was nothing ittiolet sin,
Lowever, in the proposed clause. Those Fes sons ii pre-
sent se.ident in this country were allowed to remain
upon the registration 'of their risme., which was iii t 4
very severe penalty ; and we were only ',Mooing the
example 4 almost every Catholic country in preveating
them from settling here. It vie House could be aware
of the anxiety and aliprehensioo entsst ;lured in some
eseidibourt ouds where Jesuits had arrived, with large
funds, and with the intentioaof establishing themselves,
the necessity for some provision on the subject would be
is ore obvibus. As to the benefit derived from the exer-
tions of those persons in prom sting education, as referred
to by the Hon. Member for Limerick (Ms. Spring Rice),
if persons wished to promote education it was by no
means necessary Oat they should bind themtelves by
monastic vows. Vows of celibacy, or vows of poverty,
had su.ely nothing to do with the promotion of educa-
tion, or. as f.tr as he could see. with the exercise of the
Roman Catholic religion. The Constitmion and the
law 44. this country was oppweJ to per sons binding
themselves by secret vows. The -clause had givers
great sistisiactisn to those who had hitherto offered a
conscientious opposition to the claims of the Roman
Catholics. and. for his part. he could int consent to
withdraw it, when R man Catholic States had thought
it necessary to exercise the same kind of jealoul with
iespect to particular orders.
Lord SA NDON said tie chase appeared to bias to be contrary
to every priatipte 64'114440k *

Mr. H. GB AT FAN defended +he Jesiiii• from the
imputatioiis can up.in them by the Hon. Member for
Dower. Though so much had been read-about the Je-
suits in Deland.there were only lour now in that count, T.
Mr. L. FOSTER sop. oiled the cl +use. on the ground
that. in pop litiun as the Jesuits were disco+++ eked in
France they Would reaon to England. if not pievcnted
.bi mine •uch measure as the present.
Sir SAr ILSON. though adverse to Monastic Ordeie.
thought that Governs eat ought to charge it-ell w.th•
the responsibility of admitting persiins .4' the d se, iption
contemplated by the clause, when they presented them.
seises under ascisinstances not likely to be productive
of ill effects.

Mr. HUSKISSON said the Jesuits were bound, not
only by a secret engagement. but by an nhligation •of
Oise.lime to ti foreign P.wer. He furtlier•observed that
'those orders were remarkable for "leading suit) great
rapidity,*and 'for • proPorilonably eat-ending their in-
', adente. t Daly was be'opposed to the Jesuits, but
to ewer, species' of monastic institution All the en-
lightened Catholies on the Continent admitted that the
remise of the Roman Catholic religion was perfecCy
;practicable without the assistance of monastic commu-
nities: He would, therefore, give his decided support
to the fiVii clause.
Mr. (RANT said that was the onlj part of the Bill
that could be called any thing like e security. He
'thought it of so much inspertatsce that it could net be
too cautiously or deliberately discussed. Ile would.
theielose, suggestthe espediency of adjourning the Com-
mittee. •. H. Was ansioui that hiimself. and those who
thought with him, sflatil3 obtain a full and fair hearing
on a Mauer of so much.impottance.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that it certainly had been
the practice .of the House, in such case., to adjourn
at twelve, or halt past twelve o'clock, when there was no
probability of bringing the business e f tile C•Unnlittre to
a close ha that night. However, in this case he thought it
Wai a Mesita' might voiy advantageously be dispensed
with. It appeared to him unsatisfactory to proceed by
such short discussions as had been rcommetided.—
When the Committee began its labours this event„ g,
pot more than between sixty and seventy members were
present. and those who came in about eight or n'ne
o'cl,ck were some time before they understood what
was going forward. They 114c1 ahead, been two days
nu the Bill. and he thought they could not p
J better than proceed with it till two, or even three
Aloek. As to the present clause. and the wish ex-
pressed by his Hon. Friend opposite tq be beard on
it. he was sure there existed in every (`'gentleman a dis-
position to attend to the observations or his Honourable
Friend. and on that particular point he could breed°
desire to adjourn, seeing that be fully approved of the
_ clause.

Mr. TRANT aid he would go on, and the moment
Any impatience was manifested he would move an ad-
journment.

• Sir S. KNATCHBULL was willing thin' to proceed.
He whited to know for what days the R•ght Honourable
Gentleman intended to fig the sobs. quent stages of
"halal?
pie. PER foTo bring up ups Ripest mimosa for thejarpweof
baying k primed. and use* to adopt it on Friar. and to **atilt .a
Wed time es Woodsy. . _ '
HANKER would prefer Tuesday. (furls. "K day,
. TheCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUNa Md. Abel he
show would maw foe that—it was a =mgr.."' !pen to
ob-
Caked SIBTHORPIC whhed forKZ=nast,' win to
faaior opportunity forireendwll
After a few worsts flan r. L Roca and Mr. Wunnte.Hosinan,
. Mr. flowsrairy PEZl:itald he would consider of alieespidtedy
starergag %sem Nesabers of rellgioes orderrilhaltbat tie
*pewee ff allirdiat inch ECSININ to trotowame Ideation of his. his.

.