Star.
London, England, 1820-02-19 00:00:00

••••••••
Message—
to thank his Majesty for his most gracious
to assure him -hat their Lordships participated in his
feelings of tegret upon the loss which the Nation '
had sustained in the demise of the late Sovereign,
his Royal Father—and to express their Lordships'
readiness to take such measures as the exigencies of
the State might require in consequence of his Ma-
jesty's determination to call a new Parliament with-
out delay.
The Marquis of L ANSI/OWN said, that while
he yesterday expressed his approbation of the course
adopted by the Iyc,ble Earl, he wished it to be un-
derstooi that.he did so because that part of the sub-
. ject upon which no difference of opinion could take
place, was very properly separated from that to
w hich he was by no means prepared to assent. He
was not one of those who held precedents in super-
stitious veneration; yet perhaps, if there was any oc-
casion wherein a feeling of that kind might he en-
tertained with regard to them, it was where a Crown
was transmitted with all the imposing characteris-
tics of regal dignity. Mit what course did the
Noble Earl call upon the lic;use to adopt? it was
one which, before that, no Minister had ventured to
propose, inasmuch as he dared not advise the Sove-
reign upon the propriety of Parliament fixing the
period of its own dissolution. This was manifestly
unconstitutional, as it went to interfere with the pre-
rogative of the Crown. Was it supposed that the
present Parliament was less capable of transacting
the public business than the new one to be called by
the Crown, or were measures to be proposed to the
former which could not be submitted to the latter,
' as being less tractable? He expected that the Noble
Earl would have stated some grounds for his extra-
ordinary proceeding, but he had not done so, nor
offered any arguments but such as could easily be
refuted. The Noble Marquis then adverted to for-
mer precedents, contending that the Civil List had
always been settled immediately after the new reign
commenced, and before the existing Parliament was
dissolved. As instances of the fact, he referred to
the reigns of Queen Anne, George 1. and George
He next commented on the inconvenience which the
public business must expeiiencr from the abrupt dis-
solution of Parliament; and particularly urged the
-necessity of coming to some previous determination
for reducing the number of troops added to the
standing army, an increased force being no longer
necessary, though imperiously called for at the time
by the extent 01 political disaffection which pre-
vailed. In his opinion, it was the intention of Minis-
ters to establish this additional force as perinanenti
by getting the approbation of Parliament to a short
Mutiny Bill, in which it was to be included. The
Noble Marquis concluded with stating again, that
some measures were in contemplation which, it was
• -expected, a new Parliament might sanction, but to
which the present one could never accede.
The Earl of HARROWBY argued, that the
course proposed in the present case was far more'
advantageous and convenient, with respect to the
public business, than that contended for by the No-
ble Lord. The Noble Marquis was likewise mis-
taken in assuming, that Parliament was here called
upon to advise the Crown, with respect to the pe•
riod of its own dissolution. No such inference could
fairly be drawn. The Crown merely communicated
its determination to the House,. and the House en its
part had to consider whether it would concur in cer-
tain measures which were essential to the public ser-
'vice. With respect to the Civil List, on which so
much stress was laid, would it not be preferable in a
case where it was impossible, at the utmost, that
Parliament could last longer than six months, to
bring that extensive and important subject, at a pe-
riod and under circumstances in which it could un-
dergo a thorough investigation, into full discussion ?
Even at the present moment, the country was begin-
ning to feel inconvenience from the prospect of a
pending dissolution; and it certainly was advisable
not to leave it long in such a state of suspense, but
to go, as soon as was safely practicable, to a Gene-
ral Election. There was no prospect of bringing for-
ward those great questions to any beneficial conchs-
sion'in the interval which could remain of the conti-
nuance of the present Parliament, and it would be
infinitely more advantageous to enter upon the in-.
vestigations in a Legislature by which they were cer-
tain to be deliberately concluded. Under the pecu-
liar circumstances of the present case, it was impos-
sible these discussions could be gone into consistently
with the public advantage; and that was the ques-
tion upon which they had to consider, in order to de-
termine their minds. No measures should be pro-
posed that there did not appear a certainty of being
duly considered, in what was likely to remain of the
present Parliament.
Earl GROSVENOR observed, he should trouble
tlseir Lordships with a very few words upon the pre-
sent -occasion. He could not consistently-approve of
the proposed course. It would appear there was an
endeavour to coerce the decision of Parliament ;
and in no constitutional point of view did it strike
him that the proposition was justifiable. He was
opposed to the measure of postponing, to an indefi-
nite period, the consideration of subjects of the
highest national importance, and without making the
least endeavour to reduce the public expenditure.—
The finances of the country were in that lamentable
state, that no delay whatever should take place in at-
tempting to meliorate them. As to the idea of suf-
fering a large addition to the military force to re-
main, it was what he must regard with the highest
disiatisfaction. Why was a large force maintained
in this country—or for what purpose ? .Could it
row be said that it was for the purpose of putting'
down 'disaffection ? They bad lately heard, even to
nauseating, that disaffection bad been put down.—
The continuation of such a large addition to the
Army would, were there no other reason, induce him
to oppose a line of procedure which he could not
agree to sanction with his vote.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE began by observing
that none of the alleged reasons, for the course now
adopted by Ministers, bad the least weight in justi-
fying it. The Noble Earl at the head of the Trea-
sury (Liverpool), had said, that if Parliament were
to be continued for the Sessions under the anticipa-
tion of a dissolution at the end skit, or in the course
t,f six n, Halls, as prescribed by lasts the Members
would be so much employed in attending phi their
-own concerns, and in taking steps for their future
se-election, that they would be tuiable to attend to

. .
the business of the Nation. This objection might
have been made to former Parliaments which, in si
milar circumstances? had concluded the bustffess of
the Session before a dissolution. What then became
of the Noble Lord's argument-;-4 his only argu,.
. merit ? It was said by the Noble Ear rat the Ci-
vil List would require protracted divirssion, and,
therefore, that Ministers would, not how submit a
settlement of it, lest it mi ,lead to such discussion.
Now, would it not be bettii-0 submit the whole sub.-
ject to Parliament, where it might be discussed with
knowledge, than to allow it to be discussed by the
Public without any information ? Bet his. Noble
Friend near him (the Marquis of Lansdown), had
asked how the Civil List was to be provided for in
the interval between the dissolution of the present
and the convocation of a new Parliament ? and had
not received a satisfactory answer. The hereditary,
revenues of the Clown were mostly appropriated to
the Consolidated Fund, and to the payment of the
public debt. The Consolidated Fund would he de-
ficient if these revenues, so appropriated, were inter-
fered with. How was this deficiency to be made
good, on the supposition that the revenues of the
Crown, so appropriated, were to revert to the So-
vereign ? It was the duty of Ministers to have these
points settled before the dissolution. He (the Noble
Earl) could not agree to the motion which was now
before the House.
The Earl of CARNARVON saw.no grounds for
the extraordinary proceedings now proposed to be
followed. He had• expected from the Noble Lords
opposite some explanation in addition to the meagre
information which had been afforded by the Noble
Earl who opened the debate. That Noble Earl al-
luded to some things more notorious and less noto-
rious, but he did not specify what he meant. It was
at first said by him, that it would rest with their
Lordships whether they would authorize an early-
dissolution, by agreeing to the measures necessary
to precede it ; but the Is Earl afterwards deserted
this ground, and rested the question of the dissolu-
tion on the will of his Majesty alone. With regard
to the balance of conveniences and inconveniences
which was resorted ato for the purpose of determin-
ing the expediency of an immediate dissolution, he
(Lord Carnarvon) would beg leave to make an ob-
servation or two. His Noble Friend (Lord Lans-
down) had well stated, that if any Parliament, on
the demise of the Crown, should be allowed to sit
till the business of the Session was vine through, it
ought to be the present.. It was a new Parliament :
it tad proceeded in the business of the Session a con-.
siderable way already, and it had still six months
before it, which was the usual length of a Session.
But it had been said, that the Members. of the
other House, if the Session was still to last, would be
so much occupied with their own interests, that they
would forget those of their Constituents. This ap-
, peared to him (Lord Carnarvon) a most extraordi.
nary objection (Hear, hear). It was the first time
he ever keard of Members becoming more careless
of the interests of their Constituents in proportion as
the time advanced for expecting a renewal of their
suffrages (Hear, hear!) He had always understood,
that during the last Session of a Parliament, Members
endeavoured, as much as possible, to cultiVatePopu7
lar favour ; and how could they do so by neglecting
the interests, or opposing.the wishes, of their Consti-
tuents? With the exception of those that sat on the
Treasury Bench, he was entitled to conclude, that an
approaching dissolution would rather quicken dili7
price fit the promotion of public objects, than pro-
duce neglect. This reason for an immediate disso-
lution could not, therefore, he the true one. What,
then, was the true reason ? The Noble Earl oppo-
site (Harrowby) had disclaimed any secret or un-
avowed reason. But was there not room, for suspi-
cion ? When their Lordships saw Ministers resort-
ing to temporary expedients—when they heard them
propounding, as the motives of their conduct, rea-
sons which could not stand the test of examination,
and found them dissolving Parliament at so incon-
venient a season, and with so slight an excuse, was
there not ground for suspecting that they had ob-
jects in view which they durst not declare, and mea-
sures to propose which they durst not submit, with 1,
any chance of success, to a Parliament acting under,
the anticipation of a general election? The suspicion
here was necessarily created by tbe conduct 'or the,
'Ministers themselves. If they had nothing to sub;..
.mit now, which they were afraid to declare, why
'dissolve Parliament? They. were bound to give
some satisfactory account* of the grounds of their
conduct, and to explain the reasons why such a dif-
ference was observable between the course now pro-
posed, and that piirsued on similar occasions for-
merly. It was incumbent upon them to explain
why
:they departed from prkedents (Hear, 'hear), They
had not done so; they gave no reasons fOi their con-
duct. On the contrary, there appeared strong Con-
stitutional reasons for not dissolving Parliament at
the present moment; so strong, indeed, that he would
not hesitate to declare his conviction, thit a Minister
whe, in present circumstances, advised a dissolution,
did not do his duty by his King and Country!—
(Hear, hear). There were three Boroughs, the Re-
presentation of which was at present Suspended, from
proofs of gross corruption; and there was a fourth,
to disfranchise, on the same account, for which i Bill
had been introduced into the other House. Such
was the state of the Representation. Was there not
here the strongest ground to continue the Session till
some law should be passed regarding these BoroUghi?
Would the inhabitants of these places be called upon
to exercise rights which they bad forfeited by cor-
rupt practices, and concerning which one branch of
the Legislature had instituted proceedings, which a
dissolution would annul? One of these Boroughs
had been so notoriously corrupt, that Ministers them-
selves had agreed to the transfer of its franchise to
another place; and would they now, by dissolving
Parliament, restore the exercise of that franchise to
electors who had so abused it? He should not say
one word mere upon the subject, but would oppose,
the course proposed by Ministers.
•
Earl BATHURST 'begged their Lordships to
bear in mind two things which would go far to de-
cide the policy of the-froposed measure—namely;ll
that this Parliament could by law sit only six,
months ; and, secondly; that the business of the Ses-
sion was scarcely yet begun. Noble Lords had re-
curred to what took plate on former becasions'et
similar nature, but they did not take into view the j
tine of the tear, or the period of the §eseion,

the demise of the Crown happened'. T)teir,ptoe-1
dents, thetefOre; could not strictly ap"
Anne died in August? when the business of ttotres-
.
ston was nearly over. George I. in June, and
11. in October. There was a wide difference ipoint
of the progress of public business between any of
those cases and the present. It had been said that,
in those instances, Members had continued at their
posts, and discharged their Parliamentary duties, in
the anticipation of a ntw election : but, at presentt a
greater degree of ferment and agitation prevailed
regarding the election than at any former period.—
This was evident from the circumstance, that on the
very day when the death of the late King was an-
nounce.l,-and in the very Paper that announced it, an
electioneering advertisement was published. The
animosities and angry feelings of the last election had
not yet subsided. There was no prospect, therefore,
that in such a ferment, Members could attend so
calmly and dispassionately to their Parliamentary
duties, as they might be expected to do when their
own business was terminated—their election contests
, decided. Knowing this, and knowing that the busi-
ness of the Session might not be fully executed in
the time 'allowed by law for the existence of this Par-
, liament, he would ask, was it not better to dissolve it
now thil at a time when a greater interruption to pub-
lic business must be the consequence of a dissolution?
Lord-KING was of opinion that the measure of an
immediate dissolntion, would not bring together a
new Parliament at an earlier period than that to
which the present Parliament may with propriety be
continued. Besides, in the case of a new Parliament,
the glen subjects alluded to could not be brought
forward but at a period or season of the year in which
a full and adequate attendance of Membeis could
pot be hoped for. In every former case of a demise
the Civil flit was proceeded upon without delay,
and the question of the Hereditary Crown Revenues
was one' which he thought peculiarly called for the
speedy attention of Parliament, especially as a por-
tion of their' was held to expire on a demise of the
crown. As far as the Civil List was concerned, he
deemed it disrespectful to the Crown thus to post-
pone its arrangement.
The LORI) CHANCELLOR argued, that the
Noble L9rds who opposed the proposition before the
House, had taken a very erroneous view of the
grounds upon which the Advisers of the Crown pro-
ceeded. By the ancient Law and Constitution of the
country, Parliament was ipso facto dissolved by the
demise of the Crown. The regulation which extended
ifs duration, subject to the discretion of the reigning
Prince, to the length of six months, was merely in-
tended to promote_ the public convenience or the
public interest. Therefore, when it clearly appeared
that Parliament could not be usefully continued to
the extent allowed, it certainly was never the inten-
tion that it should necessarily exist for that time. In
every case the Constitutional prerogative of the
Crown was Carefully reserved, and the application
of its exercise could never depend upon the sense of
Parliament. Its purpose could never constitutionally
be thwarted by Parliament, and it was not for the
latter to take uponitself to say, that thitrown
should not dissolve Parliament, or throw insuperable
obstacles in the way of its exercises. Upon these con-
victions he felt it his duty to support the motion for
the Address.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN and the Earl of
LIVERPCIOL.spoke shortly in explanation ; in which
the Noble Minister observed, that Parliament, by the
adoption of temporary measures, might preclude the
possibility of injury resulting to the public service
in the interval which must unavoidably take place
between the dissolution of the present and the assem-
bling of a new Parliament.
The question was then put, the Address was voted,
and ordered to be presented to his Majesty by. the
Lords with white staves, and the House adjouraed
till Monday.

nufoeturost of breWesida-mader-Lyn. praying lir • Repeal of
the additional Duty upon Wool.—laeld on die Wile.
On the Motion of Dr. PH 'LUXOR& the second reading
of the Marriage Amendment Act was postponed tili Friday nen.
Mr. LEMON moved for Returns of Culver. exported front
Great Britain up to January, igen, and also the .Irrottat
posted front London, and the quantity imported, nptuf) pig the

ommtnes.--sarsiereu.
Mr. litnicantmot brought up an Account of the Balances of
Cash is the hands of the lank, on the tot and 15th of the cur-
rent month.-11,id on the table.
A Person from the City of London brought up a List of the
Nantes, and other particulars, relative to Vagrants cows:ratted
to places of eirrection in the City, from the Ist of Januarys
1919, to the lit of January, 1990.—Laid on the table
A Person frim the Pay-Office brought up as Account of ,ike.
total Rtpenees of the Pay-Olfice from 1798 to 1813, and fly,
Estimate for 11119.4—Laidon the table.

ROYAL MESSAGE.
Lord CASTLEREAG ii moves! the Order of the
Day for the reading of his Majesty's Most Gistrieui
Message, which bents read accordingly, the N, old
Lord said he rose for the purpose of moving air
humble Address to the Throne in answer is the;
Message, and also to state the course, which at the
present crisis his Majesty's Ministers thought right-
to pursue. The country was now, he said, differentli
circumstanced from what it was before the recessi
What was then done had reference to the covintry as
to the state in which it then stood, but since that a
demise of the Crown had taken place. This great
event had made a new course of proceedings neces-
sary ; under these circumstances only two .courses
presented themselves to his Majesty's Ministers—
either to endeavour to meet the . exigencies df the
crisis, and go regularly through public business in
the present Session, or adopt temporary measures
!Or the present, and call a new Parliament for the
regular dispatch of business, 'and the adoption of
the necessary arrangements. If the former course
were adopted, it would be considered unfai. in Mi-
nisters to make any selection of business. Whatever
they might do, other topics and other subjects v'ould
be thought to have as great a right to be disposed
of, and if it were open to every Member to intro-
duce what subjects he pleased, the Crown must be
placei in the awkward situation of being obliged to
suffer the Parliament to continue in existencebeyoud
the usual time, or would 'lse under the necessity of
cutting short the Session before the subjects with
which the Legislature was occupied came to any sa-
tisfactory conclusion. It was of course known, that
aoy public measure brought in, and not completed
in the present Session, must. fall to the ground.—
Looking, therefore, to the alternative, his Majesty's
Ministers had decided in favour of advising the call
of a new Parliament : and he was sure the feeling of
the House would go along with him, that k was the
best mode that could be adopted under the necessity
of the case. It was indeed usual, immediately after
a demise, to make prevision for a great portion of
the Civil Establishment; but then it was to be con-
sidered that such matters could not be adju ted at
once. Time would be required for Gentlemen to
snake up their minds, and besides, the House would
Ise naturally open to other propositions coming from
different Members. It would be awkward to pre-
vent other Gentlemen from banging forward subjects
which they judged to be of pttblic importance. The
state of attendance was .rtso to be taken into consi-
deration, and it would be hopeless to look for a full
attendance when Gentlemen were occupied in pre-
paration for future elections, and matters of the first
interest could not be so well arranged as when there
were calm minds and a good attendance. For these
reasons the advisers of the Crown had preferred to
suggest the measure of regulating the public affairs
in a new Parliament. As to private business, it
would be resumed in the same state in which it had
been left in the Parliament dissolved ; and no injury
could, in the meantime, arise to public business.—
It was not necessary to propose, at present, any sum
for Army• Services, as a sufficient sum had been
voted to. answer the demands of the interval. But
it was intended to continue the Mutiny Bill to the
25th of June, and also to continue such other Bills
as would naturally expire iu the interval to the same
period. He was of opinion, that by_this means the
present Parliament would be enabled to s du-
ties completed by the end of the present month, so
as' to allow'the dissolution to take place on Ow Ist
of March, as the new Parliament might be assem.:
bled en the 25th of April. He did not think it ite-
cessary to offer any further observations to the
House. -He then concluded by moving, That an
humble Address be presented tehis Majesty, aeknow:
ledging, with every sentiment of gratitude, the sense
which his faithful Commons entertained of his haye
iog'been graciously Pleased to make a commlinica.-
tioit on the subject of public business, and of 114 in-
tentions to call a new Parliament without delay, ada
to assure his Majesty that they would immediately-
adopt such measures as would provide for the exi-
gencies, of the pUblic servicto in the interval which
was to elapse between the close of the present Ses-
sion and the convening of a new Parliament.
Mr. TIERNEY said, that such a measure as that
now proposed; had never at any former time been
brought forward—such a mode of proceeding had
never been adopted at any accession sincelthe Revo-
lution. The general course was, withoorany suffi-
cient ground having been stated, to be now departed
from. They were daily told, that it was the -best
thing they could do, to provide for the immediate
exigencies, and then dissolve; but nothing whatever
was said in the Message, or by Ministers, in reference
to future Government; nothing like this had hap-
pened, whether the House was actually, in a state of
prorogation or not; at such a time, more might
have been taken notice of. As it was, he could not
help giving to the proceeding the epithet indecorous.
On all similar occasions, the Prince-had requested
the House to make good the provision which was to
defray the expenses of his establishment. By so doing,
he recognized the power inherent Wake.. House, of
voting or not voting the sums necessary to support
the Royal dignity-. There were, indeed, some of
what were called the hereditary revenues, which were
independent of Parliament ; but what were generally
so called, expired with the demise of the Crown. k
required new Acts to authorise their collection. The
words of his late Majesty expressly avowed this, that
they could not, without an Act, be collected or iip-
lAied. Why such a departure from all precedent.
was now resorted to, he could not say. •He was sure
there was something at the bottom of it which it was
not intended that he should underitand. Why no
the Civil List voted as it heretofore had been ? The
Noble Lortsai4, it. would *calf,. a considerable time

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