Star.
London, England, 1827-06-08 00:00:00

* • • • '
ttlirctions wit Pot
. ' gocia - also asked .
. sea
of the* iding for the expenses iticurti
British Commissariat in Portugal had been e
pftpet? whether the Portuguese Government'
the itlirrerry accounts, and paid the meow
whether it had been carried to Our criat t
Viscount DUDLEY and WARD said that thescauses
which had prevented him from laying Papers relatively
to Portugal before the House, still existed. As to the
other point, he believed that the method of carrying the
money to the account of the British Government had

~~.

•
been preferred.
Latd ELLENBOROUGH saw, from the returns on
their Lordships' table, that the sums,..spent for secret
services during the last four years amounted to 205.0001.
whilst for the four preceding years it was only 145 0001.
mat in g an excess of more than 50,0001. though about
1820 (here had been no less than three revolutions on
the Continent. In that year the expenditure in secret
service money was 50,0001. whilst last year it was
68,0001. It also appeared that the sums expended within
the last four years exceeded by 23,0001. those voted by
Parliament, which rendered the Appropriation Bill a
nominal and delusive precaution. He also wished to
know whether the Noble Viscount would object to give
the returns of the service of the secret money up to the
present period, as those laid on the table came down
only to the 2d of December?
Viscount DUDLEY and WARD put 4t to the Home
how it was possible for him to answer the questions of
the Noble Lord without going into a public detail ore
secret service, the very nature of which differed cots-
pletely from every other. There was no doubt that
the country was entitled to every information re-
specting every branch of public expenditure; but
from the nature of this service, it must be, and had
always been taken as an exception. And if the per-
son under whose controul that 'service was placed
was not to be trusted on his honour and his oath,
the proper remedy was not to inquire into the de-
tails of the expense, but to come forward and address
the Crown to dismiss him. As to producing returns
of the issues of the Exchequer op to the present time,
he had considerable objections; for by giving such
Returns for short periods, a clue might be furnished
to the manner in a hicis that money had been employed
which might be injurious to the public service. Yet as
they had been produced to the end of last year, he
should not refuse those for the first spatter of the pre-
sent. He also thought himself authorised to state that
the apparent increase of service money arose from the
fact that a larger sum, about 14,0001. remained on
hand at the close of the last, than at that of the pre-
ceding year. At this period of great political differ-
ences, when men were judged, not on their acts, but
according to every idle tale and rumour in circula-
tion ; one had reached his ear that some part of the
Secret Service Money had been used to b'nd the
Press. In point of fact, be could not answer the
question of the Noble Lord if he would, for he could
have no cognizance of the application of the Secret
Service Money before he held his present situation.—
At the end of each year the account was sworn to by
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs at the time being, and
no record was preserved. He had, however, inquired,
and found some of the accounts still in existence, and
the inspection of those documents had left the strongest
possible conviction in his mind, that as to the money,
which had not passed through his own hands, not one
shilling had been applied to the purpose of binding the
Press. He had thought it his duty, in justice to the
character of a public individual, now holding the
highest office in the Government, to say thus much.—
The Noble Baron had also stated that the Expenditure
did not correspond with the Parliamentary Grants.—
He understood that when the Expenditure had exceeded
the Grants, it had been met by some former accumula-
tion and surplus.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that in looking at
the account before the House, he found no such sari
plus, but an eternal deficit, growing even larger as the
number of years increased. His Noble Friend would,
no doubt, manage that service with the greatest in-
tegrity, but still it was the duty of a Member of Parlia-
ment to look at every kind of expenditure with jealousy.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to know,
if these was any objection to explain what proportion
of the secret service money was spent at home, and
what abroad? Because, if he was rightly informed, in
the course of two years 60,0001. had been spent at home
as secret service money.
Viscount DUDLEY and WARD should really be
glad to answer those questions, and could only be pre-
vented from doing it by a sense of public duty. He
assured the Noble Marquis, that if from his silence he
should draw any inference unfavourable to his prede-
cessor in the same office, he should form a most unjust
and unfounded suspicion. But he would not consent to
admit any imputation on the character of that distin-
guished individual by answering questions, which in
the utmost conflict of party violence bad never been an-
swered before.

Viscount STRANGFORD apologised to their Lord.'
ships for presuming to address them. The whole course'
of his life had been so entirely, and he would almost
say, so fortunately unconnected with politics, that ha,
should be the last man to intrude his opinion upon the'
House. The eaperience, however. of twenty-five years'
residence at one half of the capitals of Europe harli
given him a practical and technicil knowledge of dm
subject, and neither knowing nor caring whether it was a
question of pirty or not, but feeling wholly indifferent
which ever side his opinion might please or displease,
he should obey the plain dictates of truth and justice.'
He had never known a man, and he had served under
nine Secretaries of State, who had exercised a more
minute, scrupulous, vigilant, or efficient safeguard over
the administration of the secret service Money than the
Right Hon. Gentleman lately at the bead of the Foreign
Department. He had been under his command at five
different Courts, and as human nature was human na-
ture still, occasions had arisen for calls on the secret
Money, and he repeated he had never known a Minister
more cautious in the employment of that money, or
who attended more strictly to the principle that the
public money should never be spent without an ade-
quate paid pro qao, than the distinguished individual
to whom he had alluded. He had now done his duff;
,for what a man owed to truth and justice, ought to 4,
%sprain to all feeiings and all considerations of party.
noun LA w 5.
rtsionnt GODERIdi rose, and moved that 'their
_ _

Lordships should resobe themselves into a Committee'
on the Corn Laws. , ,
The M argots of-tChbIDONDtRRT, before going into',
a Committee, wished to kniiw, erlintlfer it was true, that'
certain: Noble•Lotds who had baled Tor the smendment
le Duke the other night, when the noise Nab

. obliged
gesting a measure- than which none could be more
calculated for utterly subvesting the landed interests
of the counts y—(Loud and continued cheers).
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, the N .ble Baron
ought to have distinguished between a suggestion and
a recommendation, before he gave expressi..n to his'
di►approsation.—The amendment was withdrawn.
The Earl of WESTMORLAND felt called upon]
'to make some observations on the Bill before their
Lordships. As far as he could collect from the opinions
df his Noble Friend, now unfortunately absent, and of
his Noble Friend opposite, he was bound to believe that
they intended the Bill then before their Lordships as a
measure to prevent the fluctuation of price, and tha► the
point at which they thought the price ought to be kept
was about 60s. per quarter. At the present moment
the price was gisatly below it. We were within two
months of the harvest, and the general impression was,
that that harvest eras a must promising one. It must
be 'admitted' also, that the agricultural interests were
labouring under distress. The season hitherto had been
`most severe. The cattle were not in a 6t state to be
sentlo market. Wool was at a ruinously low price,
These circumstances naturally brought down the price
of grain for,: when other artifles were unprodoeti+e,
the farmer was obliged to briog his corn to markatii
'Hence the present depressed state of the corn
Asit. Yet, under all these circumstances. the Bill would'
to not only to permit the introduction of 600,000
*ratters of foreign wheat, but throw open our ports
the whole of Europe. The consequence would be
itbat, unless the general importation of foreign grain
should be, in some degree, prevented, great injury must
result to the agriculturist. For the sake of the country
at large, he, therefore, put it to his Noble Friend (who
had, no doubt, the safety of the country at heart) to
prevent such an evil. The Noble Earl here proceeded
to contend that, as the holders of the 600,000 quarters
of foreign wheat, now in bond, had some claim upon'
the consideration of Government, it would be only po-
litic that that grain should be got rid of before the Bill
`should be brought into operation. The warehousing
system was most objectionable; still he was of opinion
that the grain already warehoused ought to have a
preference over that, to permit the importation of which
the Bill was intended.

Lord GODERICH said, the only species of corn
which was likely to be imported now was oats.
The Earl of WESTMORLAND resumed.—His wish
was, that the Bill should act immediately, with respect
to all species of grain now in bond, but not with re-
gard to any corn to be imported until after the expira-
tion of six months. After referring to the care which
Government had taken in all former Bills, to prevent
injury to the agricultural interests, and recommending
similar attention in the present instance, the Noble Earl
said, he bad a proviso to suggest, which, he thought,
would attain the object of the Bill, without producing
ruinous consequences to the agriculturist, namely—
" Provided also, that, from the 15th day of August,
1827, it shall be lawful to the importers of warehoused
wheat and other grain, to enter and warehouse foreign
corn for home consumption, under the provisions of this
Act; and that the provisions of this ♦ct shalLtake effect,
with respect to all kinds of foreign grain se'imperted,
on and after the Ist January, 1828." He hoped he
should not be supposed to intend injury to the princi-
ple of the fill, by recommending the adoption of that
suggestion, which would, in his opinion, enable Go-
vernment to take the necessary steps for the advantage
of all the parties interested.

Lord GODEBICH feared that the proviso of his
Noble Friend, if adopted, would be encompassed with
technical difficulties. It would postpone the period for
admitting corn to be imported on payment of certain
duties, and so keep those duties which were granted by
the Bill out of his Majesty's Exchequer duting that in-
terval. He knew his Noble Friend thought that the
amendment might be easily effected.—(Lord Westmor-
land—fe No, insert it in the other Bill.") He (Lord G.)
feared, that if it were inserted in the average Bill, it
would be liable to the same difficulty. There cer-
tainly was a clause in the Bill, giving the power
to Parliament to amend it during the present Ses-
sion; but he feared, even if the (proviso were adopt-
ed, it would fail to effect the purpose of his Noble
Friend. The object of his Noble Friend was, that
all the corn bonded before the 16th of August should
be admitted into the market. Now, it was clear that in
the period which would elapse between that day and
the I.t of January, that would prevent a competition
between the corn in bond and that imported from day
to day ; but in the mean time the importation would be
going on, and on the Ist of January the same difficulty
would exist; and the double competition between the
warehoused corn and that daily imported, which his.
Noble Friend considered so dangerous, would still take
place. He did not think, therefore, that the advantage
arising from the introduction of this proviso would be
commensurate with his Noble Friend's eepeetations.—

Withvespect to the measure of 1825, thiir Lordships
would recollect that they were then only dealing for
once with a definite quantity, and were not making pro-
vision for the future admirsion of an unlimited quantity.
For these reasoiss,.he could not bring himself to ac-
quiesce in the opinion that any advantage would result
from the adoption of his Noble Friend's proviso.
The ERA of WESTMORLAND explained.

The Earl of MALMESBURY hoped that his Noble
Friend would turn his mind to this subject between this
and the time when the report would be brought up, in
order to devise some means. if possible, of avoiding the
evil pointed out by his Noble Friend near him. For his,
own part, he admitted he was unable to suggest any
thing on the subject. The Noble E4rl then objected to
the present clause, which he thought ought not to have
been introduced into the Bill.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE complained that ;he
wording of the clause rendered it confused and unin-
telligible.

Lord GODERICH was not reconciled to the intro-
duction of his Noble Friend's proposition ; but he bad•
no objection to consider if there was any mode of accom-
plishing his object.
The clause was then agreed to.—On the reciprocity
clause being read,

Lord ECLENIiOROUGH said he recognized the
hand of Mr. Jacob in this cl.u%e, and he complained of
the incon.istency of the Presid, nt of the Board of Trade,
as it bad .beep ►hewn in his arrangement of the details
of foreign shipping, in the proceedings on the recipro
ci►y of Doves Bill. The Noble Lord then went into a

variety of statements. to prove the decline of interest
red by Britih shipping:, and the advancement of
. of the nations of the Baltic.
Lord OODRRICH defended theylause.
The Duke or WELLINGTON justified the clause,
grounds of general policy, as all Governments, must
,see the power left with them of arranging the tariff,
upon terms which might secure to their subjects recipe°,
cal advantages.
The Bad.sibIALIIKSBURT and Bari ST&NHOPI3
the chase. which was agreed to.
Lord TETNia moved a new clause. avowed IV tenuity
upon a year's notice. to void their leases.
Lord GODERICH objected to the clause, because
the Bill was of so public an import that it 0.11 Id
not be
in any way made applicable to private contracts.
The these was then negatited.—On the au •
eeeedlog clam of
the Om,
The dad or IIaLIMQSBiIQT moved that the rite of eat,
which had bees bud as Ike point of remuneration, should be gas
agitated by 061.
Lord GODERICH admitted that it was not possible
to secure to the farmer any fixed price, as it must always
depend . upon the seasons, and a good season would
effectually prevent him from tinaining 60s. per quarter
for his wheat. In 1619 t.e had looked upon 80s. settle
maximum, and in the present instance be.looked on 601.
, in the same light. The reason why 60s. had been chose*
as the point of departure was, that it now bore the same
relation to the price of other commodities that 80s. bore
is 1819. Sixty shillings was 25 per cent. below the
price of 1819, and no less than 28,000,0001. of taxes
had been repealed since that date, which wasll,ooo,oool.
more than 25 per cent. upon the whole amount at tea,
tion in 18/9. The change in the currency was also to
be taken into codsideration, as having produced a most
material effect upon agricultural produce.
The Earl of MALMESBURY [miller explained the
object of his Amendment.
Lord LAUDERDALE remarked upon the fact, do
certain of his Majesty's Ministers not only spoke speedo
for the benefit of their colleagues, but printed them
afterwards for the benefit of the public. One disad-
vantage, however, was, that one part of the printed and
corrected speech could be contrasted with another ; and
in a certain address on the Corn Laws 60s. in one place
was talked of, on the authority of Lord Liverpool, as
the price that ought to be secured to the grower d
wheat, while in another paragraph it was said that the
protection to the farmer ought not to exceed 55.. la
short, any man who read the speech, and compared it
with the Bill upon the table, would see that the pres-
sure was nothing else but a juggle throughout. He
supported the Amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord
Malmesbury), because it went to defeat the object of
the Bill, the principle of which was to render this
country dependent upon foreigners for a supply of the
first necessary of life.
The Earl of DARNLEY adverted to the Amendment
of a Noble Duke (Wellington) adopted on a former
night; and gave notice, that on the bringing up of the
Report on this Bill he would move, that the price of
661. be applicable only to the corn actually now in
bond, but not to the wheat to be imported its come.
queues of the passing of the present Bill. He admitted
that the fiat was only a just protection to the farmer
against a sudden inundation of foreign grain.
The Marquis of BUTE was of opinion, that the 010
ject of the framers of the Bill was, that the price of wheat
should not fluctuate below 555. nor above 655. per
quarter; and if it had secured to the grower a price of
62eor 695. he should have been satisfied. As, how-
ever, it would secure no more than 581. or 595. the
Noble Marquis supported the Amendment of his
Noble Friend (Lord Malmesbury). With regard to the
Amendment of a former night, which had been carried,
Members of this House who did not wish to vote could
not, like Members of the other House, accept the Chi'.
tern Hundreds they could not retire from their duty,
ad were bound to discharge it, heedless of all copse.
queues. The principle of the Bill he did not oppose;
heonly objected to some of the details.
Lord REDESDALE argued at some length against
the principle of the Bill. There had gone forth a
voice in another place saying, that the landed Pr-
ioress must be put down. Such language, be would
contend, was the language of conspiracy ; it was re-
volutionary ; it was the language of the London Cor-
responding Society.
Lord HOLLAND rose to order. Their Lordship
must see the inconvenience which would nosh to the
debates in that house by any allusion to what passed in
the House of Commons, which could not but tend tp
raise disputes between the two Houses of Parliament.
Earl STANHOPE said, that his Noble Friend had
said nothing about the House of Commons. Thou
words had been put into his womb by the Noble Bruce
He was surprised that a Noble Lord who had been so
long a Member of that House should deliver his opinions
in so dictatorial a tone, and he was sorry that the able
address of his Noble Friend had been so interrupted.
Lord HOLLAND understood the allusion to have
been made to what had pissed in the House of Com-
as, and he was quite sure that the Noble and Learned
Lord would be the fint to allow that any such allusion
was contrary to the order of that House.
Lord REDESDALE continned by expressing his hope
that the Noble Lord would not call him to order merely
because he stated his disapprobation of the language of
the London Corresponding Society : " Liberty, Equality,
and no Corn Laws," was its motto; and such were the
terms repeated and re-echoed by the enemies of the
landed interest. The whole plan, indeed, was ridiculous
and wrong. It was impossible to conquer nature; and
if it were attempted so to. do, " the winds and the rains
would laugh them to scorn, and the frosts and the snows
would hold them in derision."
The Earl of HAkROWBYaaid, if such words as had
been made use of by the Noble Lord (Redesdale) had
been introduced into the speech of any Gentleman in
the other House, still they ought not to have bee°
quoted in that place ; neither would he give credit to
their having been made -use of in the other House of
Parliament, until the Noble Lord said that he himself
had heard them ; because he thought, if such had been
the case, the person so making use of them would have
been pot down by a general cry of indignation. Tbe
object of Government, in bringing forward the present
measures, was not to influence the winds and the rain+,
but to endeavour to secure to the agriculturist and mo
nufacturer a sufficient supply of corn at as undeviating
a price as possible, and to protect them against thew
fluctuations, the ill consequences of which had, t ern so
grievously felt, and which the existing laws bad bec3
unable to provide against: 11 they thought the measure
fraught with tho e revolutionary principles attributed
to it by the Noble and Learned Lord (Ltedesdale). 131;
if they thought, from their experience • ' the hietoi _
the past, that it would have the

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of pending ne• in a similar Coming(*) had. sat was said. receit
how the artier raiatiotl tbatithay wore no loniat to ransain
hicnrted by the okay's household, if they did pot sate in the it
teen caried inlet Gosternment dished ? Is he understood, that
lent had vet i6wit ayes hod, beep rewted to, in the progress of a
mount to us, or intimidate Noble Lords in the execution of tbtA
Itt it "he had thought fit to mate it known, and to ma'
1 that thescansrs ther inquiry into the subject.

iOd sierra. 'risk& hid been adopted was adeastagf iq m;sy variet
itt Ids smqllBcemhossamelys that ofoherocivernment..in times vaffeil
way the of sanity, making salmi of ramie theirovau silkier's. that o
it such He did not recommend it fotadogtion hire, bus magi) Lon
BM, to threw: it out as a suggestion. .
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kr duty. Lord' HOLLAND' said, their Lordships- must cer- on gr'
Ike far- thinly be much obliged to the Noble- Lord for sue. hare
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