Star.
London, England, 1820-07-05 00:00:00

•

(Kw, her) -la this an._
.stand !against her- fit `thteCmost,..„.
Intps she would have, afintilli, to 'Meet _
=with very Itnpetfect means At defence.
ht that justice required tltatheiMajesty
be forthwith furnished by Ministers with a dist,..
statement of the charges, and a list of the witnesses
on whose authority they were made. He concluded
by saying, that his object in rising was merely to
enter his protest against a course of proceeding that
seemed tosesolate every principle of justice.
The Earl of HAItROWBY said, that as the latter
part of the Noble Earl's speech related to a subject
on which a full explanation would be given to-mor-
row (this day), he would not offer a word upon it,
further than to say, that he entertained a full sense
of the importance of that subject, and had as anxious
a desire as any one could have, that the minds of
their Lordships should still remain with respect to-it
in a state ol'perfect impartiality. He could not,
however, avoid making one or two observations on
the speech of the Noble Earl, in a spirit much milder
than that in which he had expressed himself, for he
should not copy his tone. The Noble Earl had ac-
cused Government of a gross act of injustice to-
wards her Majesty. If it was so, the House was in
that injustice a complete accomplice—(Cries- of
"Hear,' front the Opposition berro*).—When the,
measure of a Committee was proposed, a Noble
Lord had uried what he conceived to be unanswer-
able arguments against it; and yet, by not pressing
a division, he evidently did not wish it to be known;
how small a number his unanswerable arguments
had convinced. If, indeed, there ever was a case in
which the House was justified in pursuing the course
which they did, it was the present one. What in-
justice was there done? What inconvenience could
result to the accused from it, which could have been
avoided ? It had been stated to their Lordships, that
if the Committee reported on the necessity of some
measure, the House would be disqualified to judge
upon it ; and, if a judicial proceeding was to take
place, there could be no doubt that all
_previous
inquiry should be given up, or the House would lose
its character for judicial impartiality. But he would
ask their Lordships, if they could have listened to a
Minister proposing such a measure 'of himself, as
that which was now to be grounded upon the
Report ? He was sure, that if a Minister 'did at-
tempt to make the proposition without such an au-
thority to go upon, they ought not to have allowed
him to open his mouth. A proceeding of the,kind,
instituted without previous inquiry, would be con-
trary to all precedent, and could only be excused in
one case—where there was a strong call from the
party accused for an immediate trial. In this in-
stance, when the accused did call upon the House,
the Committee had already been appointed; and
although the House felt the difficulties and delicacy
of the case, yet it saw no reason for altering the
course which it had on consideration adopted.—
Another point on which the Noble Earl had animad-
verted, was the negotiation for an arrangement
which had been carried on between her Majesty and
Ministers; and he stated, .that if Ministers were in
possession of- the information on which the chargesi
were founded, it was highly criminal in them not toy
have immediately instituted such a proceeding as,
that to which they were now driven. He (Lord'
Harrowby) did not know on what grounds such an
opinion had been supported. Now, indeed, when
they were driven by the necessity of the case to
commence this proceeding, the Noble Earl said,
that they should not enter into the investigation of
a subject which might prove dangerous to the tran-
quillity of the country, and he thought that the mea-
sure proposed ought not to be instituted.
[Here Earl GREY rose to correct a mistate-
silent : his argument was, not that the proceeding
aught not to be instituted, but that Ministers,
having before them the evidence on which the
charges in the Report were grounded, ought never
to have attempted to make the case a matter of
compromise. 3
The Earl of HAR ROWBY continued. The Noble
Earl was, hen of opinion, that if the measure now
proposed was to
.have been brought foriGrd at all,
no' compromise ought to have been attempted. But
he (Lprd llarrowby) looked back on the conduct of,
Ministers in that instance with the greatest satisfac-
tion. They had acted with the greatest propriety in
endeavouring to avoid the necessity of this measure
by a compromise. .The Noble Earl, to be sure, might
endeavour to toss them on the horns of a dilemma;
but however they might admire his logic, they could
not think equally well of his political prudence, when
he contended that nn step should have been taken to
avert the consequences of an inquiry, equally revolt-
ing to the feelings and judgment of Members. If it
was possible that by allowing the Queen'a liberal in-
come, she could have been induced to remain in com-
fort and peace abroad, without coming to "trouble the
tranquillity of this country, the present step ought
not to have been taken. If there was ever a case in
which a man might sacrifice part of his own charac-
ter for consistency, it was that. But now Ministers
must do their duty. He could not hold such an opi-
nion of that House, as to suppose that it could not
blot out from • its mind impressions received upon
this, as on minor occasions, so as to allow no more
weight to the Report, than would be given in an in-
ferior Coutt to the verdict—or rather the finding of
aGrand Jury. As to what had been said of delay and
suspended proceedings, it was to be recollected, that
long intervals of time had occurred on many occa-
sions between the preferring of charges against per-
sons in high stations, and the decision upon them.—
In one instance which had happened in their Lord-
ships memory, the delay' was one of seven yeart. He
did not. say that the charge thus suspended might not
wound the feelings of her Majesty.
ei GOD forbid he
should ; but it would wound no more than was'
necessary from the very nature of the case • nor
could that have been avoided, had a measure been 4t
once proposed instead of the Bill which was to be
presented to-Morrow oirthe ground of the Report.
The Earl of CARNARVON could not admit the
-justice of the Noble Earl's comparison of the Report
on the table to the verdict of a Grand Jury. Before.
a Grand Jury found a bill, they heard a complete
body of testimony against the accused. He would
ask the Noble Earl whether the Committee bad azio
mined such witnesses as a Grand Jury must examine
before they sinetioned an accusation ? Were the
witnesses brought before the Committee as they mutt
been into a Grand Jury-room? There was

i

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,


be very
tion was an occasion on which oaths were inter-
=betweett the Sovereign and his People, and
he did not mean to deprecate such a cere-
mony, though he thought it had much better be de-
layed. After expunging her Majesty's name from
the Liturgy, and bnngiug forward the present Re-
port, it would appear as if it bad been intended to
put a -stain on her character in anticipation of that
solemnity. The measures might with some have the
appearance, not of a wish to do justice, but to throw
an insult on. her Majesty before trial. He aid not
call upon their Lordships to pay attention to popular
clamour, but wished them to regard the feelings.of
that respectable part of the Public which looked with
anxiety as well as respect to their proceedings. Un-
der these circumstances, he thought it would be right
to suspend the ceremony. No possible danger could
arise from a delay of three months. A great respon-
sibility would be incurred by those who advised this
proceeding, if, at a time when.oaths were to be inter-
changed between the Sovereign and his People, the
season, instead of being one of joy and harmony.
should become one of sorrow and dissatisfaction—if
feelings should be excited which might unfortunately
lead to some intemperate act. There were two courses
before them. If one way was adopted, there would
be harmony and peace. If the other, the only object
for which the ceremony ought to be attended tor
would be defeated.
The Earl of DARNLEY was afraid that nothing
but mischief, could result from the paper laid on the
table, and sincerely wished that the proceedings had
been avoided. He had before alluded to the mea-
sure of the omission of her Majesty's name in the
Liturgy, the injustice of which was so glaring.
After her Majesty had been prayed for during twenty.
five years as Princess of Wales, the refusing to pray
for her as. Queen was quite unaccountable. How
did it happen that she, who was worthy to be prayed
for on the 29th of January, became all at once an
unworthy object on the 50th, the very next day ?
The conduct of Ministers in this respect could not
be exculpated.
Earl GREY, in explanation, re-stated the opinion
which he had before advanced in reference to the
negotiation. He said, that a charge of adulterous
connection, aggravated by along course of licentious
conduct, was one which could admit of no compro-
mise, consistently with the power of the Crown, and,
the attention which was due to the interests of the
country that infamous charge had been also then
softened down by the mild appellation of a family
difference. It was a charge against the Queen, which,
if true, was dishonourable to the Crown, disgraceful
to herself, as well as injurious to the best interests of
the State. Yet the Minister, in possession of the in-
forniation, would have agreed to an arrangement to
allow her to reside abroad in peace and comfort ;
and hi order to furnish her with a provision which
might enable her to go
.on in her course of licentious
conduct, would have given her £50,000 out of the
pockets of the People I If such a case was. founded
upon evidence, he again imisted that no compromise
should have been offered.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that he did not
rise for the purpose of prolonging the discussion, but
merely to say a few words in answer to what had
fallen from the Noble Earl opposite (Grey). The
doctrine advanced by him was, that Ministers had
finally seen the Queen's conduct in a different light
from what they did, at the commencemeat, beCause
they now advised inquiry, whereas they formerly
sheaved a willingness to compiomise. Now he (Lord
Liverpool) had not the least difficulty in maintaining
that, even on the assumptiiin of the possibility of
proving -every charge against the Queen which had
been made, his Majesty's Ministers had done right in
offering to agree to an adjustment without a trial.—
He would say, that had she remained abroad, the
evils attending a compromise ,would not have been
so great as those that might be anticipated from in-
stituting proceedings against her ; and he entertained
this opinion in common with ,99 out of a huildred of
the Nation. Undoubtedly it might be said, that, if
charges existed, they ought to be proved or dispelled.
This, as a general maxim, might be correct; but cir-
cumstances might be such as to render theeapplica-
tion of it to certain cases highly inexpedient. If the
peace of the country, if the honour of the Crown,
and the cause of public morals, were involved, in the
question, it was not only the duty of a statesman,
but of every man who was actuated by public prin-
ciple, to prevent as far as possible a public proceed-
ing like that now before the House. lie (Lord Liver-
pool) Therefore entirely dissented from the opinion of
the Noble Earl (Grey) ; and when the proper time
arrived, he should be able to defend the conduct,
fOunded on different principles, which his Majesty's
Government had pursued. He wax not afraid to say,
that though the charges were known to Ministers for
months before they communicated them to Parlia-
ment—though they knew The evidence on which they
rested, and though they saw the possibility of proving
them—it was their duty, in all circumstances, to
vent a kublic investigation. Whether the steps they
had taken to prevent inquiry were prudent or no was
'a different question; but when the Queen" came to
the country—when her conduct Was forced upon-
public attention—when no medium was left between
admitting her • to the exercise of all her rights and
privileges, and allowing her full influence on the
morals of the country, and proceeding against herr!
supposing the charges to be true, they were compel-
led to bring them forward. Great as the evil on this
latter supposition was, it appeared to them to be the
least—(Hear, hear).—He would not enter further
into the subject at present, as opportunities would
afterwards occur of fuller discussion.
The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM said, that the
House had already concurred - in the propriety of
proceeding as his Majesty's Ministers had recom-;
\ mended, withousknowing any of the FA-tins/ars, but i
merely having before them the general charges. He
(the Marquis of Buckingham) concurred in all the
votes that had been given for adjournment, in order
that time might be afforded for adjustment, and he
did-so with great satisfactien. He wished the ques-
dos not to be brought forward if it could have been
prevented, . because he thought it would affect the

eroseii, bind tbe p€ice
; but When he found diet all attempts
e hid been unavailing,: hi as sincerely
necessity of pursuing the litqhitY: The
• hid therefore devolved upon the Com-
duty it had now fulfilled ; and if he
to say anything concerning the conduct
of that Committee, he would Mention that the Re-
port on the table expressed its unanimous opinion on
the documents laid before It.
LOrd HOLLAND could not allow sothe of the
observations which had fallen from the Noble Mar-
quis to pass unnoticed. It was with pain that he
heard the Noble Marquis attempt-0 make the Home
accomplices in the proceedings of Ministers—it war
with pain that he saw an made to throt.'
the responsibility of the inconsistent conduct of .Aft.
nisters on a majority of their Lordships; but heti
the Noble Marqftis went a little &ether, and wW,e&
to implicate them likewise in the negotiations tttar
had intervened; be went too far. The majority of the
House stood,, in his (Lord Holland's) opinion, acquit:
ted, both of having preferred charges against he:
Majesty and of having attempted to compromise
those charges. The Noble Earl (Liverpool) had
stated, in loud and lofty language, that he had his
reasons for believing, that inquiry, which was not
necessary if her Majesty had remained out of Eng-
land, became necessary as soon as she returned ; but
he had not specified those reasons. He merely
gave his opinion, "without producing any grounds
for it ; and he had forgotten that her Majesty was
not only to escape a trial if she remained. abroad,
but was to receive £50,000 a yeaf—(Hear, hear).—
The feelings of the oountrr might have Leen inte-
rested in this question, but was that interest dimi-
nished by the presence of her Majesty in England?
IThe Noble Earl had alleged that Ministers. were
'driven to the course which they had adopted, but he
had not explained why they were so driven. The
course of these proceedings was from the beginning
wrong—highly inconsistent--highly dingerous—.
derogatory from the honour of the Crown, and in-
jurious to the best interests of the .country. it wai
unjust that charges should be suspended so long as
these must be before they were tried. He would
again say, that the House expressed no opinion
by consenting to repeated adjournments. Their
Lordships were told that there were hopes of adjust-
Mint, and on that presumption they adjourned the
meeting of their Committee ; but in doing so, they
expressed no opinion of the charges. Neither did
they express any opinion of the negotiations, of
which, not knowing the strength of the evidence
against her Majesty, they could not know the pro-
priety. He protested therefoie against being con-
sidered as a party W. a course of proceedings from
which he entirely dissented.

The House adjourned at Half-past Six o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The House was occupied until half-past five o'clock, in bal.
lothig for Committees on the Grantham and Chester City Dec.
don Petitions.
The following are the names of the debaters= the Ballot :
Earl Bective, Lord Castlereagh, Lord' G.-Cavendish, Sir J:
Copley, Mr. A. Ellis, Mr. False, Mr. J. -P. Gent, Hon. F..
Lovrndes, Mr. Needham, Sir Edw.ollfieri, Jam Plainer, Esq.
O. Prendergast, Esq. lion. R. with, and Chas. Wetherell, FA*
Lord G. CAnnani. and ' Mr. Amax En ^ *ere then die.
chaired fry asides% oti payment of the ken
Mr. WILSON presented aVetidon from the Rectifying Dis-
tillers of Londan, praying for tong Alteration in the, reguiatioa
allowing the etirolesion of spirits from Scotland of a certat
sum,* Into this etaintry,--Laid an the tables
111 k. MAXWELL premixed two editions, one from the
illeilkati of Gin a, other frnin`Paisley,jrnst any al-
teradenof the Disks en Timber.—Laid on the
• The telkiwist are the moues of the Comminsie en the Cheese
Election Petition s•-.LG. G. Meagan, Req. J. Maxwell, Esq. Sir
Thomas Winniegton, J. Lockhart, Fag.. Sir J. Marjoribanks,
J. Gastoyne, Req. Colonel Davies, F. A. Prittie, FAq. Monte
Legge, Reg. William Evans, Req. W. Wigram, E,sg. Honk:
Cast, W. Lomb, Req. A. Boswell, Eq. T. F. Lewis Esq.
Sir J. OWEN knight in a Bill fur resektleti the cnfotchl of
Pines, Fees, and Recoveries In the Courts of Quarter Sessions in
Wales, In the same way as in the Courts of Westminster.—Read
the Brat time, to be read the second time tomorrow.
The Population Mil was read the third time and passed.
.Oo the motion of Sir J. MACKINTOSH, the Privately Steal.
kg in Shops' Bfil, and the Capital .Felooke Repeal Bill, Isere
re a third time and passed.
On the Order of the Day beim teed for the third reading of
the Capital Relcmies' Commutatim BM.
Mr. R. MARTLN objected to nylon of the Bill, which re.,
fired a proof of asks in the case of the crimes mentioned.
Mr .I. MACK/N.708H said, the objectless of the Right
Elioneenble Getitienian applied to the law as it stood, not to the
provhions of the RM, which elected only the law as it regarded
imaillments, not as it regarded the definition of crimes.
-The BBL was read a third time and passed.'
On the motion of Mr. Bonnrese, Lord essmaamost and
Mr. J. P. GRAM; were discharged from the custody tithe Ser-
Arms on the of their ken
A Penes trek the it 46.014. br_eiglit_trp = account
of the weddranommt of HMI Blik le drab.
lie don.—Oirdetai tioon the lien *• • •
Mr, Brown, hum the .peken
eitigatmas. prasteNd at the
az the sites of all Bankrupts to thm Prison lime
the year HMG.
• ilk W. CURTIS Atoka! isom to being In a •Rikkiemonl
the Acts of the 30th and. skit of George. 111. for *Ow saw
tog and regubning the City of Loads. MO.
Mr. ANSON obtained ]pave to bring in a BOOR' the
Acts reladng to Cooney Rites.
07 INQUIRY INTO COURTS thintrtla
ill scalunta. •

Lord A. HAMILTON prefaced his motion for the
production of the Correspondence.which had stakes
place between the Secretary for. the Home Depart-
ment and the Commissioners a ppoo"nted to inquire
into the State of the Cants in kcs
tlandby a feu
observations : he complained, that altisou_sh the
Commissioners had made eight voluMinons Reports
in which they pointed out the practicability of a
saving of 1;15,000 a-year, by the abeilkion of useless
aces, yet not one of their suggestions 'had been
sanded to by the Govetiment. The Commission
Bad been permitted to expire in March, notirithstand•
ing the suggestion of the Commissioners theraseivel
ofthe necessity of their continuing their inquiries;
and this assertion, be believed,- could lie confirmed
by the Correspondence itself: Their repeated apple"
cation for a renewal of die Commission.-their repro
sensations that the further prosecution of their inve*'
ti 'on was necessary to make effectual their former
were not attended to. At the time when he
hadatade his motion respecting the Barons of the Er
ehespiti, the Noble Lord opposite had stated, that
the Commission had terminated by 'the demise of
his late Majesty. Now he (Lord A. Hamilton) would
shew, from the Correspondence itself, that such was
not the understanding of the Courts themselves, or the
Government, since.they c°l 7fC tided with the Com.
missioners, after the demise o King, as a perfectly
legalbody. Bat the most important part of the ques-
tion was that Math% to the retiyal of& Conunilsion.

. _•
ist wie4WllMOdrie Oubluetp however,on whicimbe thorn& it ue‘mtgoboin. of thd
Ld-thed pie! gal b a fey words. fleouislind to know, at the country
the inveiti- whittler it really wasdiekneation el& Noble Lord at compromise
fence. H. oppOita to shorten the duration of the present Sts- agreed in the t
testy should lima, in order to afford an opportunity for the exhi- proposed duty
th a distinct bition of a splendid pageant, whickwould at *Wert mute; which
he witnesses be very ? He was aware that the Corona- were allowed t,