Star.
London, England, 1811-01-07 00:00:00

The House met at three o'clock, shortly after which
eLdeputagoil-fromptLe Commons requested a confer-
• epee. The Messengers having withdrawn, their Lord-
ships agreed tb the proposed conference, and deputed
elaord Camden, Lord Liverpool, the Lord Bishop of
Killala, Lord Napier, Lord Eliot, and Lord Mul-
grave to manage the same in the Painted Chamber.
The Messengers from the Commons havinglicen
recallea, were seibriried of this acquiescence' toge-
ther intention of their Lordships to Bold the
_ the Painted. Chamber, .whither the ma-
Peers immediately went. On their retunt4
:Amden acquainted the House, that they held a
ith the,tiinunonr, and had received ser-
ums respectia&. the issue of sums from
ter for the service of the Arniyend Navy,
concurrence of their -Lordships was re-

, •
alutiona 'alluded Do Whir read; wire kid
Able. • •
motion of Lord LIVERPOOL, a Message
it to desire a conference with the House
.imons, on the subject matter of the Resolu-
, which were transmitted to their Lordships in
conference held on the Sd of Jatstary.
Messengers returned, the same Peers whe ma,
irst conference were directed to manage
that end, they proceeded to the Painted
r return, Lord CAMDEN informed their
that they had held a conference with the
the Painted Chamber, on the subject
conference held on the Sd of January ;
Jrned to the Commons the Resolution de,
that day, together with • the amendments
, their Lordships, to which they had desired
concurkence of the'Commons.
- PROXIES.
CITANCEL,LOR called the atten-:
iouie, and said, that in

. consequence.
ing which had taken place at the last meeting
Lordships, with respect to the propriety of
votes by proxy, he felt it his duty to
Lordships that he should, on an early
notice of a motion on that subject. In giv-
notice, he should take care to name a day for
ideration of the question, sufficiently distant
Noble Lord to have an opportunity of being
of the circumstance, as he felt it was a
very serious importance.
MULGRAVE expressed a hope, that the
which the Noble Lord had alluded, would
postponed to any distant period. He consi.
the question,which was involved in the consi•
•at of the first importance, and was, there-
,iotraLliit it should be brought forward with
AMR,
,arl' of MOIRA was not apprehensive of
of so hastily bringing the same subject
second considerati- he aware of

to say a few words on the vote he delivered last night.
Certainly the subject of Proxies had been already
brought under the consideration of the House by a
motion of the Noble Secretary of State, and a Com-
mittee had been appointed to search for preceelents,
which they had done, and the Report now lay upon
their Lordships' table ; and he had frequently asked,
whether any Noble Lord intended to found any pro-
ceeding upon their Report ? This was a sufficient rea-
-1 son, in his mind, for the ',cue of last night ; and he
also concurred in every sentiment which had been
utteredsby his illustrious relative (the Duke of Kent).
He was happy to find that unanimity on this subject
prevailed amongst the Royal Brothers ; and he trus-
ted from this time they would continue to be unani-
mous upon every other occasion.
i The Duke of NORFOLK having just come into
' the House, wished to be informed of the nature of
the subject under consideration
LO' CHANCELLOR

nor was
pending their deliberations which could
vote they had given last night. The
which they were assembled, and the sub-
. occepiell their discussion, were out of the
;nurse of the proceedings of Parliament.-1
it was necessary that every Peer should
... order to determine, and it was imPossi-
those who were absent to be aware of the
which the Houses would pursue in this
ation of affairs respecting the Resolutions
been proposed and afterwards adopted.—
a :potion as the one alluded to by the Noble
Limed Lord was intended to affect the deter. I
last night, it should receive his strongest
they were then in a Committee upon a
completely out of the ordinary course of the
of Prliament, and it must have been to.,
an what Resolutions theylwould finally
therefore it was inconsistent that such ab-
should vote on the Report immediately ;
up, who were completely ignorant of what
the committee.
'!e of CUMBERLAND said, he would
reasons which educed him last night to
rejection of Proxies, That subject had
Iced some time since to the attention of
by the Noble Secretary (the Earl of Li wen.;
a Committee was then appointed to take
.ito consideration. The Committee after.
searched into precedents, and he understood
was not acted upon, as there was a doubt,'
the Tellers relative to their decision ; and,
circumstances, he considere.l himself
lye the vote he had delivered last night,
no means appear to him a fit reason for
favour of voting by Proxies. At the same
antioni the Question should be brought

gigue discussion, and he considered
iged to the Noble and Learned Lord for
he had glyen- of his intended motion on
.t.

- '

--

, of LIVERPOOL expressed himself de.
:eing the motion alluded to by his Noble.
'd. Friend, brought under the discussion of
He considered the Question relative to
voting by Proxy of considerable import
he trusted his Noble and Learned Friend
a day for submitting his motion at such
:rind as would precede the consideration of
public business,

p
ENVILLE. considpred the vote which
night as not involving his determination
.uestion of Proxies, for the subject in another
fined before the House upon the motion of
tcretary. He had no solgectiona to the
.prptosed;but he did not apprehend'any pub.

i


.

so urgent for its being hastily pressed
consideration, and he trusted sufficient nn-
he given of the time when the motion
!Tilde: -
As of KENT—" My Lords, I consider
oosne measure called upon to state to your
"ich infir need

the

The .RD acquainted
Noble Duke with the purport of his intended motion.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose and said, that as
there was no 'potion before the House, he should
move the stan4.'ng order of the day.
• / . THE EXCIIIQUER.
Earl SPENCER suggested the propriety of their
Lordships resolving themselves into a Committee,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no objection to
the Noble Earl's proposition.
• The douse accordingly resolved itself into a Com-
mittee of the whole House, when the Clerk read the
Resolution of the Commons relative to the issuing of
the public money from the Exchequer.
After some suggestions of Earl SPENCER and Lord
GRENVILIIE, relative to the necessity of having the fact
before the House, and that there was urgent occasion
the money should be issued,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL, on 'entering into the,
discussion of the subject, was desirous of removing an
impression that had got abroad, that the object of chic
measure was to vote money out of the pockets of the
people, its object merely was to authorize the issue of
money from the Exchequer to the public, which had
been already voted and appropriated by Parliament.
This question was brought before the two Houses in'
consequence of the necessity of the case, the monrY,
being urgently wanted for the public service, -Circura.
1 stances had arisen which rendered necessary the bring-o
in& the present subject before Parliament. He walls(
opinion, that during the incapacityof the Sovereign, the
authority of the Crown was vested in the two Houses
of Parliament, with whom it rested to supply the de-
fect in the personal exercise of the royal authority as
circumstances might require. This, however, he con.
ceived did not extend, neither would it be fitting or
convenient that it should, to the details of the Execu
tire Government. Those details must rest with the

confidential servants of the Crown, who were respon-
sible for those measures which it might be necespry
for them to adopt for th; safety or well-being of the
country. In the present instance, it having become

seaessary to issue' money from the Etchequer, for
the payment of the army, navy, and ordnince, the
cornmissioneTs of the Treasury issued their warranti
for-the purpose, it being conceived, that under the
Act of William 111. their warrant would be a suffi-
cient authority. But the low officers of the Crown
hiving given an opinion contrary, his Majesty's Mi-
nisters bowed to that opinion. He, however, still en-
tertained an opinion, although it might be that of a

person ignorant of the subject, that under the words
of the Act the warrant would have been in itself a
sufficient authority i but he admitted that the uni-
form usage of the Exchequer ha 4 been to the con-
trary. It was then proposed to use the Privy Seal to
sanction the warrant, which would have been a direct

and sufficient authority to all the subor4inate officers.
He did'not mean to find fault with those scruples of
the indi►idual, by which the use of the Privy Seal, in
the manner prop►iwut had been prevented. In the con-
duct of Ministers upon this occa4i,),n, there had been
nothing but what the peeessiti of the case required.
There "-- the - it •

the reasons whi my dote on was no secr*t in _ transaction ; was per-
t 'of Pm:ies lastnight. Without pledging tern well known that the money must be issued to
&pal opinion on..that iniportant privilege supply the eiigencies of the public service. In 1788
4er,, I msst observe that the subject had I nod 1189, thf Ministers at that time were equally
,1:1y, on the motion of the Noble Secretaryd Punkielled to act upon their own responsibility, undr
4a Committee to search for precedents, the circumstances of a melancholy incapacity of
futt44ST PMeedil Pas• beep resorted I §9Tesei similar ts UiF resat, Thor.


when we were isonsiderink a them the respntribility of an
magnitude, upon which 'it • of entering into a treaty.
who were absent to know that the -Spring Assizes
by us in the Committee, it the trial of offenders, that
admit the votes of proxies, from the Crown. It was
the Noble Secretiry. had Yai, ign Manual, and it was de.
he intended, and when we were in t Seal to the Commission,
proxies could not be admitted, _ At it ...s unfair which Lord the. then Chancellor, did, and
and illiberal on his part that he should make an at- the Judgis went the Circuits under that Commission.
tempt to do that by proxies, upon the bringing up of He mentioned this, to chew that the same opinion
the Report, which he found he could not accomplish was then held with respect to the duty of the confi-
in the'Committee where Proxies could not be received. dential servants of the crown, to carry on the Reece-
It was more especially to resist such an unfair at- Live Government under the circumstances of the me.
tempt which induced me to give the vote I deliver. lancholy incapacity of the Sovereign, so far as the ne.
pd upon the occasion. cessity of the case required. He at the same time
The LORD CHANCELLOR again stated, that held it to be their duty, to do only those acts which
he intended to make his motion on Friday, and he were necessary'tp the wellbeing of the country. In
would on Thursday mention more particularly the 'the present case, it wag an act of necessity, that this
nature of its tenden-cy. money, which had been already voted and 'ppropria.
Lord REDESDALE was apprehensive, if the ted by Parliament, should issue from the Exchequer
question of Proxies was to lie submitted to their dis. to supply the exigencies of the public service, and he'
cussion, because they were not regularly sitting in !trusted, therefore, there would be no objection on the
Parliament, the other orders and usages of the House (part of their Lordships to give the authority by sane.
might come under the same uncertainty. In that case tioning the Resolution. As to any charge of delay,
there would be no principle which could bind their , Parliament had sanctioned whatever delay had op.
Lordships to a single regulation which governed them curved, upon grounds and for reasons which to them
as a House of Parliament. • were satisfactory. His Lordship concluded, by
The Duke of KENT—" My Lord, I cannot suf- moving to agree to the Resolution, and to add the
fer the observations of the Noble and Learned Lord words, The Lords Spiritual and Temporal."
to pass, without one remark. Much has been said ! Lord GRENVILLE felt a difficulty in conse.
in this House about feelings for the King, and othets quence of the speech of the Noble Secretary of State,
have been supposed to have feelings for the Prince ; as to the course which he ought to take, There had
but there is not a Lord here who can, I am sure, been an understanding for the convenience of the
have stronger feelings than I have for both the King House, that merely the exigency requiring the issue
and the Prince : still, on such an occasion as the pre-; of money from the Exchequer should be considered
sent, when a new and most important subject, that to-day, and that the conduct of Ministers should be
of the Sovereignty itself, is under our deliberation, reserved for a future discussion. He would not, how..
may not a Peer be called upon to exercise his discre. ever, now break in upon that understanding, by at.
• tion Rear, hear), and for that purpose should not tempting to discuss that part of the subject in so thin
he be present The Noble and Learned Lord would a House, and after the fatigue of last night's debate;
consider it in the manner of form and usage ; but but, protesting against the monstrous principles urg-
where so important a question as that which relates to ed by the Noble Earl, he pledged himself that a day
a Sovereign of this country is agitated, we ought not should come when the conduct of those Noble Lords
to decide it with the same indifference as we would should be made the subject of discussion. The No.
give our votes in respect to a common Corn sill"— , ble Earl had got into a strange confusion in• arguing
( Hear, hear.) ' that in consequence of the melancholy incapacity of
The Duke of CLARENCE thought it incumbent the Sovernir- the functions of the Executive Go.

;gn,
vernment devolved upon the two Houses. It belonged
to them, from the necessity of the case, to supply the
defect in the personal 'exercise of the Royal Autho:i
rity ; but they could not perform the functions of the
Executive Government, and herein consisted the diffi.
culty, for no one else legally could. The Noble Earl
had said, that he bowed to the opinion of the Law
Officers of the Crown • and he (Lord Grenville),
had their opinion been ;hat the warrant issued by the
Lords of the Treasury was legal, should also have
bowed to it. He could not agree with the Noble
Earl in his construction of the Act of Parliament, be.
cause no incidental words in an Act could give the
power to the Lords of the Treasury of drawing the
King's money from the Exchequer. The power must
be given by direct and express words. All the monies
voted for the public service .(with the exception of
the Consolidated Fund, which was specially applied,
and the surplus voted to the King in the succeeding
were voted to the Kini• and became the

session),
• King's monies in the Exchequer, from which they
could not be drawn without the authority of the
Crown, signified either by the Great Seal, the Privy
Seat, or under the special directions of an Act tlf,
Parliament. He, as Auditor of the Exchequer, al
place which had been supposed by some to
be a sinecure, but which was an Office of great
public trust and superintendance over the issue of
Public Money, could do no otherwise than refuse to
sanction the warrant. His office was not an office of
State, or of political responsibility, but purely Mini.
aerial, in which he was bound to act according to
law, and in which it would have been contrary to his
duty to have been influenced by any other considera-
tions operating upon those who were politically re-
sponsible. The inconvenience which rendered the
present measure necessary, was solely to be attributed
to that delay which had been caused by the conduct
of Ministers, and which must become a heavy charge
against them ; nor would it avail them to plead that
Parliament had sanctioned the delay, and were satis-
fied with the reasons urged for it, inasmuch as Parlia-
ment had been deceived by those Noble Lords in the
statements made to it, and the hopes which had been
erroneously held out. Protesting therefore, against
the principles and the arguments assumed by those
Noble Lords in justification of their conduct ; and re-
serving till a future, but early day, that discussion
which their conduct must necessarily undergo, far be
it from him, by any captious objection to the supply-
ing the necessities of the public service, to increase
the exigency which already pressed heavily enough
upon the country. He therefore should of course
give his vote for the ltesolution, with the exception
that he .hould object to the words of it remaining so
general, inasmuch as they were called upon to act un-
der the necessity of the case ; and they - not, in

,Cy ought
the exercise of the power which they were compelled
by circumstances to assume, to go beyond the actual
, necessity which called for their inte;ference.
' Lord REDESDALE, after admitting that no
yi,

blame could be imagined to attach to the Noble BA.
ron (Grenville), stated, that he did not consider the
whole Executive functions as completely suspended.
Many of them were still carried on upon the autho-
rity of the King's political capacity—and it was only
necessary to supply the defect in those cases which
required the King's personal interference. This was
one of those cases—r-but hp suggested, that in point of
instead of giving effect to an illegal warrant, it

iorm, lg
would be' better to order the issue to be made through
the medium of the Privy geal, and he hoped that aq
Amendment to attain that übject would be moved.
Lord GRENVILLE said that the same objection
as to the form of the present Resolution, had occurred
to.him—and that he would himself have ,ed the

rnovi.
Amendment suggested by the Noble and. Learned
Lord, had he not been restrained by the predicament
in which he stood, from urging any thing that could
by any possibility be construe 4 into a desire to inter-
ppse unnecessary difficulties.
The LORD CHANCEIILOR was as ready to dp
-- to the motives of the Noble Baron (Grenville)
could

justice _ ( _
as
_Noble And Learned F4iend (Redesdalel
be. lie admitted, that officers iii such situations as
thit pf Auditor of the Exchequer, wereni be guided
Arent principles trom those that under special
cas must regulate the conduct of the great
.2tcFn! W4/OeT

..

. • --:
dilrr ' .
wi ' s •
•
;should agree to command the issue of this money,
hick had been declared to be necessary for the pia,
lie service ? How that necessity had arisen, was
11.7
distinct question, completbly open to discussion on
future occasion, when the whole conduct of Ministers
ikhould be brought under the review of their Lordship,
In answer to those whomight ask whyhe had not made
;Re of the Great Seal ? he had to observe, that it di,'
not appear to him how he could have employed the
Great Seal to draw money for such services as these.
lie had thought that the Privy Seal might have been
used. and the person holding it, he believed, woul'
not have refused ; but the difficulty, of which their
Lordships were aware, had arisen, and this applica.
tion for the interference of the two Houses had bs.
tome necessary.
Lord SPENCER preferred the proceeding by
Privy Seal Bill to that of giving effect to a Ticasury
Warrant, because more similar in principle to a Com.
mission for opening the Parliament, and more con-
sistent with the usual forms of the Exchequer. But
he thoqght the whole course adopted by Ministers
completely wrong, and it was no slight ;aloof of the
most unconstitutional and illegal nature of their pro-
ceedings, that they bad been checked by such obsta-
cles as these. It had been said, that the Noble Earl
(Westmoreland) who held the Privy Seal, would not
have refused to employ it. He himself had held '
Privy Seal, and he referred to the oath ofoffice taken
by the Keeper, to see whether there was not some
reason to have apprehended a difficulty in that point.
The fiords in the oath, to which he particularly re-
quested the attention of their Lordships, were these,
" That the person holding the Privy Seal should
use it without the King's special command." _
would not take upon him to determine what construc-
tion others might put upon these words, but '
thought no power on earth would have induced him
to use the Seel without the King's special and direct
authority. There was no such clause in the oath
taken by the Keeper of the Great seal, but even '
that oath there was one which raised some doubt.-
After stating that the conduct of his Noble Friend
(Grenville) had been perfectly correct in every parti-
cular, he did justice to the candour of Ministers,
admitting that the vote of this night would not in ,
least screen their conduct from future investigation
but lie would have more applauded that candour,
the Noble Secretary (Liverpool) had for the present
abstained from that detailed defence of the Minister;
into which he had entered. The two Houses had
voted, that it was their right and duty to supply ,
defect of the Royal Authority, but they had not there,
tore determined that they should take upon the
selves to do an Executive act ; and yet this they were
now for the first time called upon to perform, though
they had beeq told by the Ministers, that no serious
inconvenience could arise from the delay in supplying
the defect in the Royal Power ! They were now, Ir-
the criminal concealment practised by Ministers _
doted to a most dangerous dilemma ; and the Only
way to get out of the difficulty was to trace back the
steps, and address the Prince of Wale; to assume the
Executive Authority, as their ancestor; hifil 444ressed
the Prince of Orange in 1688. .
Lord REDESDALE explained to the Noble Lore!
some part of what he before had observed, aid said,
that the signature' of the Regent would have the salvo
force and respect as the signature of the King,
Earl WESTMORELAND, called on as he had
been by the Noble Earl (Spencer,) could not be silent.
'on this 'occasion. He should not, however, go over
topics which had already been discussed, but should
confine himself merely to the cpcsideration of what
nyght have appeared to be the duty of the Privy Seal
confided to his care. For one, he should be ready to
meet the charge of the Noble Lord, as to the conduct
of Ministers in the whole of this transaction ; nay, he
challenged inquiry, being confident that it would ap-
pear that the whole ot- their proceedings had been not
only free from blame, but, what was far more, that
they had been meritorious. He was free to declare,
that so far as he was concerned, and so far as the
necessity of coming before Parliament, or of having
recourse to the issuing of a warrant by the Lords of
the Treasury, could have been averted by the exert
else of the Privy Seal, be, as being entrusted with
the keeping of that Seal, should have been willing
to have talon the responsibility of affixing the Seal
upon himself. Ministers had a duty to perform;
they must have performed that duty, or they mulct
have let it alone—if they did perform it, they
thereby incurred a great responsibility—but the
only question was, would they incur this zesprmsi-
bility for the good of the country, trusting to the
country for an indempity—or would they desert
their duty, and leave the country to its fate in a time
of emergency ?—He would have thought himself un-
worthy of the trust reposed in him could he have he-
sitated about encountering this responsibility; and it
was only from the scruples of another person, whose
province it was to prepare the Bill, that he had not,
by taking the responsibility on himself, prevented the
necessity of the present application to Parliament.—
As to the oath alluded to by the Noble Earl, he could
only say, that the duty of Privy Seal was pointed
out by an explanatory Act of Parliament, referring
him to look at the Signet, which, if regular, was all
Chit was required, so that the duty of the Privy Seal
seemed rather of a ministerial nature.
Lord HOLLAND wished that the Noble Earl,
like the Noble and Learned Lord late on the Wool-
sack, had confined himself strictly to the question be.:
fore the House, leaving the merits or demerits of Mi-
nisters to be considered on some future occasion.—
He, however, shoold follow the example of the Noble
and Learned Lord, and should leave the conduct of
Ministers to be judged of in its proper place. He
could not help, hoWever, expressing his surprize at
the suggestion of another Noble and Learned Lord
(Redesdale) that the Houle should issue its orders
to the Privy Seal to act in this matter contrary to
their oaths of office ; he was so great an enemy to the
dispensing with oaths appointed to be taken by per,,
sons in other circumstances I (a largh.) That Noble
and Learned 1.,0rd had also thought tnat his Noble
Friend (Earl Spencer) had seen a complacency in
the Noble and Learned Lord's countenance, in con-
sequence of a supposed concurrence in some of the
statements of that Noble and Learned Lord.—
Could the Noble and Learned Lord, or could the
llouse suppose that he (Lord Holland) should feel
complacency either in his face of in his heart, at find-
ing not 4 single arsoment or stattement of his merited
to; but every single part of his atatentent of the other
a Ystied 44 frorS-4! i.Pffi% teilloq had he

7--. A;

'


and wl
lIIIILIMM.I°I.P4RLI4III.EIY77/11fr
pßoqzzapvcr. testh 111
ose t
solved
i
HOW:* PP LORDS, JANUARY S.
me
to
after tl
itmyrn ENCES.

i I reiallea, were
'A,' theriiiir,h the i
coaatence in I
f . •naging Peers
',, Lord Camden
conferenFe seir
stain. Res()lutio
the Eitchequet
*V phich the
spared.
The Resolu
1 .
upon the table
On •the mot
was then sent
1 of Commons,
" tions, which '
i ' : the conference
The Messer
. •naged the fit
this; arid, to I
Chamber.
Op their re
Lordship, the
, • .Commons in
matter of the
' . and had rctur
-. livered on tha
, made by their
the concurien
‘
The LOW
tion of the Hr
proceeding wl
of their Lord
admitting vot
mate to their
ciAy,,give noti
.ing the notice
the considerai
for every Not
hilly aware o
topic of very
Lord MUI
botke to whi,
;pot be postpc
,tiered the clue
deration, at I
fore, an.ziotta,
.1 all due celetll
The Earl
any occasion
. • under a secot
any question
... Influence the
manner in w:
jects j which of
At
cour
At this time I
•i represent in
.ble for those
tom se whicl
novel situatia
*which had lx
1 If such ame
and Learned
urination of 1:
protest ; for t
question corn
procee.lings (
tally tmcertai
adopt, and et
sent Peers sh,
brought up,
passed in the
The Duke
V' state those n
vote for the
been submitt
the House b:
pnol,) and a
;he same int(
wards search
the Report v
between the
under these
•. bound to pil
as it did by
' deciding in f
time, he w 4;
•i under their:
himself oblig
the notice he
that stlliect.
'The Earl,
eirous of sec
and Learned
that Honse,
the right of
tance, and hI
would take a
1 an early peri
any material
Lord GR:
be gave last
on the questi
, • rade remain
the Nohje 55.,
04
tliscustionprf
lie business I
upon dirk co
e would h.
, . sold he p'
The Duki
1+ self iii sou
ordships tai
,•eL question i
y individtia
~ . every Peer
ienpri-eino;.
_...:, btrnitte.l to
aid no ii
• .- k
•

esubjeet of tine gres-, eireuntstanees took nposk the
: was inspossibletfor. act of to as great as that
what bad been se- It,wasTaicessary, iivorfder .
it was impossible for mighk he held io 1/89 t
I, Indeed, my Lords, a Commission should issue
kiled in the measures impossible to obtain the Sigr
in a Committee where termined to put the Great
I think it was unfair whih Lord Thurlow, the.