Star.
London, England, 1819-12-07 00:00:00

A,litter mode were preferred, the opportunity
;king tile °fit would be on the cßtesticto, that
:spTIERdo leave the. Chair.
rt,r, NEY conceived, that in order to mark
c,se of the importance of such a provision, the
aolielit by all meatii to take the moat rental
of introducing the limitation. Re thought,
!, that the House should come to a resole-
,strocting the Committee not to pas; the Bill
longer period than five years.
CASTLEREAGH said, that the manner of
,ing the proposition was perketly simple. 'lf
yaourable Member should move for a shorter
nun than five years, he should then move an
lent, that the period be extended to five years,
ce the sense of the Ilouse upon it. If no Ho-
le Member meant to propose an Amendment,
All then submit his-proposition to the Mouse.
the elution, that the Report be now taken into

consideration,
i.CURWEN rose, to submit a few observations
!House. lie thought the Bill then under con-
Fision to be objected to on two grounds;
that it was weak and inefficient towards
who deserved to be the objects of severe mea-
and next'that it was calculated to destroy the
• the subject generally. There should be a
distinction taken between the leaders of these
Igs, and those who are led by them. Against
-.tilers he was ready to concur in any measure
rty ; for he firmly believed that, if the Noble
opposite expressed'u wish towards Reform,
r the majority would rejoice, these leaders
feel a great degree of uneasiness. Seeing,
;that the Bill aimed rather at the subversion
general right, than the just punishment of w
rew, he felt apprehenaions, dial it was only the
ncr of others still Earths, invading the public
. The whole country;' he could assure the
Lord, felt extremely jealous at these measures.
~..,pension of the Habeas Corpus Act, and par-
,r:y the Indemnity Bill; made. a very strong iot-
a, unfavourable to:the Administration. The
in favour of Partiamentark Reform was
:.1117 every where, and if the House didwot•re-
iself, the object might be effected in a =timer
ill must lament. Tonly means of restoring
the country, was to 'remove the over taxa-
sier which it laboured.• When the whole
nof its property was under three hundred mil-
how was it possiblethat it should continue to
ity millions of taxes? He was astonished to
the Noble I:ord on a former night attribute
- distresses to the state of the American mar-
4'as it possible that other countries should be
indful of the system of monopoly and exclusion
h England had so long practised against them,
%ski rot now be desirous of practising it in
en against her? He then complained of 'the
rah which the present Bill had been drawn up,
..• .
mted that it should not have been so framed
the wishes of every constitutional Member.
T. FITZGERALD expressed his satisfaction
the alteeations proposed by his Noble Friend,
,ost r,articularly at that which excluded from
,oration Of the Bill all Meetings held within
He could not have acquieseed in a measure
::would have taken away from a whole country
-;1-.1.-toltielf It had always exercised without din-
:ad would have prevented the Catholics of Ire-
rom approaching the Throne with a statement
reir grievance's. He was doubly glad that his
:le..Friend should have suggested the alteration
‘self, without waiting till it had been pointed out
Aers, as it chewed that the
,spirit in which he
.ed aid not tend tc represi Meetings, but to render
• secure. In the course of Alan', yews no Meet-
af Roman Catholics of ;Ireland had been I
at!
,led with any tumult, or tny menacing. prep•ars..;
As they were ,chieflv held, however, in the
els of their yarn persuaiion, it would perhaps be
ssary to introduce the wdrds of Courts, Chapels,
lApartments,intO the Clause, in order tolcave no
mbt upon the subject.
Sr ROBERT WILSON conceived, that, his Ma-
, Ministers deserved to be impeached for the
maul measures which they were now endeavour.,
to tarty. They were designed to break dovin
fences of our laws, to subvert the very elements
tour Constitution; aiid:to -deprive the People of
• liberties! His object, within and without the
of that House, was not to hold inflammatory
;uage; but every Member who felt properly,
It to express his feelings openly; otherwise he
dd be abetting and aidmg an the ruin et his
try. The state to which the Country was t.ow
iced ]tad been produced by misrule, by inatten-
to the complaints of the People, by a refusal to
,'ss their wrongs, till the expression of accu-1
ea sufferings was attended with mennot andl
i. It was violence that psovoked discontent
shed blood without atoning for it. Had the
le Lord adopted 3 syStem of cducaiation;. he.
reel have been one of the first to support any me-
te measure. But if the Government of the
my was to be turned into a Government of farce,
lid riot care how sanguinary the laws were made,
itether he should be their first or last victim !
lea', /oar). It might be deemed seditious to use
•:..s of " Liberty or death" in the House, but
,As (me of those who would mitt relinquish freer
but with life! He then contended, that Mr.
Lord Bathurst, and the other Senators who
v)led for the Riot Act, at the use of its pees-
h. lad afterwards severely repented the vote Iva,
'.ey bad given. Ile objected to the Bill far
o a ms to be saized, and particularly to the clause
q 1 auila......Y.td constables, with a Magistrate's,
•:Ilan% to break into any house at night. A man
thus be forced to admit robbers under the dis-
••,? ff constables; or if he resisted, and killed a;
"'n't4l,le, before he knew who be was, he would not
d fur murder, 'but as a rebel. Such si Act
ad been passed in the time of William the Third.
the Papists in Ireland, but even then the
"1" arms was only allowed in the day tilee•—•".
It was the excuse for this change—for this;
• ' ~f the rights of EngliShmen? Truly nothieg,
,• ea ant's plea r the plea of Richard lU. for
'-orders he had committed!—
:. V hat' think yon we are Turks or Infidels?
0. that sw: would, against the form of Law,
I'rqc,94l thus rashly—
: 1.1 that the extreme peril of the earn, •
Ivace of England, and our Person's 'irifi.4y,
us to this execution r
Z:'"ll4at Ger.eisal then complained of the regula-,

tions about to be enforced by Ministers to controul the
Libeity of the Press, and maintained, that, by subject-
ing all editors of Newspapers to the punishment of
transportation, they would prevent men of respecta.:
bility and property from engaging in that profession.
He conceived that the surest means of hurling reli-
gion from the rock on which it stood, was an attempt
to defend it by other arms than those of " peace and,
good will toward' men." He recommended to the
Church not to forget that it was a church of pcace,and
to its members, not to exchange the pastoral staff for
the ensigns of Magisterial authority, not to connect
themselves with Riot Acts add military executions,
and not to display the passions of men, when their
duty was to illustrate the mercies of their GOD I By ,
their present system, Ministers were 'levying war on
the People, and let them not rest sati.,fied with the
hope that all the burthen would be thrown on pos-
terity. Let them not say, like Louis XIV. when he
was told that his measures would bring ruin on I.
successors—" after me, the deluge." If they perie-
vered in their present course, they themselves would '
be swept away by the torrent, and where weuldthey
find an ark to give them refuge?—(Herr, hear, hear).
He then complained of the haste with which the
measures were pressed through the •House, prevent-
ing the possibility of petitioning against them. He
contended that the large majorities by which they
had been siipported, would contribute most effec-
tually to convince the country that it was under the
favour of those places and pensions which had been
so often reproved, that the Noble Lord was enabled
to come to Parliament, not only without meeting
with punishment, but with encouragement and tri-
umph, to propose measures that violated. the Bill of
Rights and all other rights, and if adopted, would
amount to an act of suicide on the part of the House.
There WAS but one mode left, to counteract these at, .
tempts. Let all the independent men, on all siderof
.the House, combine together. Let them raise the
;great Constitutional Siandard—Let them say ".Nor
Is emus leges Anglice mutari"—Let them do that, and:
k let them safely "ride on the whirlwind and direct the
storm !”—(Hear, hear, bear). .
Mr. GRENFELL stood as distant in qpinions, from
his Honourable and Gallant Ft iend, as one po:e was
ftom the other... His Honourable and Gallant Friend
had said, that his Majesty's Ministers deserved im•
peachment for the measures which they had propo-
sed. Now this sentence 'of condemnation must in-
volve, not only the Noble Lord opposite, but all those
who supported his measures; and as he was arse of
those, he must consider himself as in the ranks of the
impeached--(Hear, heir). His Honourable and Gal-
lant Friend had said, that he was not in the habit of
holding inflammatory language within or without
the walls of the House—(No, furors Sir Robert Wil-
son). Hadhis Honourable and Gallant Friendahen
forgotten what had taken place on the hustings in the
Borough of Southwark ?—(Hear, hear). Had he for-
gotten how he shook hands and gave the.fraternal
embrace to Mr. Hunt ?—(Repeated cheers radiome-
ter). Did he not recollect uttering these words—
" This country is the most degraded country in .the
world ?"—(Repeated cheers). Or did he mean to say
that that was mot violent language ?—(Hear, hear).
His .Honourable and Gallant Friend had said, that a
time would come, when those who supported the
present measures would repent their folly. If that
should ever be the case, he would not come to his
Honourable and Gallant Friend to have his tears
wiped away—(Hear, hear). He should not follow
him through. his remarks on measures that were not
before the House ; but with respect to the limitation
proposed by the Noble Lord to the duration of the
present Bill, he should only say, that if it were re-
duced to a shorter period, he should conceive that the
v,hole measure was rendered unavailing.
Sir ROBERT WILSON explained why he shook
hand; with Hunt. He had done so because he
consilered him as standing forward in support of the
liberties of his country—(Hear, hear !)--He would
have been a,hamed had he not done so; and more
ashamed if he had given a hand to those. stained
with the blood of their countrymen !—( Hear !) •
Mr. BLAKE begged to assure the House, that he
would feel it to be his most imperative duty to con-
sume but a very small portion of its time. He had
listened with the most profound attention, and with
the most extreme regret, to the speech of the Ho-
nourable and Gallant General: it was a speech re-
plete with mischief, however well intended. The
Gall int General adverted to the measure• recent:
menled, which had for its object, as he said, to
,put down the Liberty, of the Press ; but it had
be such effect, and 'for the truth of this he could
refer to an authority, which, at least by the Gal-
lant General, would not he disputed. He meant
the first political essay published by Mr. Cobbett
upon his return to England, and having reference,
expressly, to those,measures, he tells his readers, that
notwithstanding those measures, there would be
Liberty of the Press enough for him yet left ; now if
there be liberty enough for Mr. Cobbett, he would I
beg to know if the gallant General could complain ?1
The gallant General had also described the other
measures as a violent encroachment upon the Constiel
tutional rights and liberties of Englishmen ; but h4'
could not view them in the same light. He (Mr,
Blake) thought them necessary defences for the Come
stitution, the vital parts of which were so Incessantlyi
and formidably attacked :—even if more were re-1
quired, he would almost assent, upon the principle
that amputation of a limb would be better than the
dissolution of the whole body. The gallant General
,attributed the disturbances of the country to the mis-
rule of his Majesty's Ministers, and contended that
the pi esent measures were unnecessary, and wantonly
imposed by Ministers. But he (Mr. Blake) would
not agree in this conclusion, nor would he attribtite'
those distusl)apces, or the measures now propoth4l.l
even to the Radicals themselves, while he was coo-1
-einced that it was such speeches as that just meet
delivered, that first inflamed the disaffected, mai
enabled them to delude a large portion or their dit;
tressed fellow-subjects.---( Hear, hear, hear)
It was doctrines such as were inculcated by the Ciall;
lent General that led to the tragic scene at. Menthes-,
ter—(Hear)—and, if the Gentlemen opposite stopped i
and rallied round the Constitution, instead of convuls-
ing the Nation by a motion for inquiry, It would be
unnecessary to have recourse to any new law upon
the - subject. This course would have emoted
peace and tranquillity of the Country by its 40.4
and give reason to hope that popular measures won
ensue. But this was not the only mistake commit*d
~;r

on the other side. No man admired the integrity 'of
heart, which was prevalent amongst the Gentleme
on the other side of the House, more than he did;
but their heads were not formed for political govern-
ment. Much had been said about refusing the Par-
liamentary inquiry into the conduct of the ANlanches-
ter Magistrates; he was glad the question had been
amply investigated, and decided on its merits; bbt
still he would chew, that if that inquiry had taken
place, and the delinquency of the Magistracy proved
before the House, the course insisted upon, if adopted,
would have precluded the punishment of the Magi-
strates. It was laughable to think that the best way
to screen the Magistracy was to.vote for that inquiry.
He would state the result in a few words. There
were four different modes of prosecution; three of
these were left to the injured individuals : there was
the action, the indictment before the Grand Jury, and 1
the information in the King's Bench, in the name of 1
thesKing's Coroner, on affidavits of the facts. The I
fourth was reserved for the Crown, and must be re-
sorted to upon an Address, praying the Prince Re-:
gent to direct a prosecution. An ex officio informa- I
lion, is the only remedy left to the CrOwn, which,
,I
when filed, would enable the defendants to come in i
and • produce the Letter of Thanks from the Crown, 1
-which would amount to a special plea in Bar, for it
*Would amount to more than a pardon; it is a release
by the Crown of all right of prosecution for the fact
therein alluded to, to that in effect the motion for an
ftiquiry was,
,if carried; the sate 'way to protectthe
Magistrate!; 'if guilty, lend to nonsuit the Crown„
while those who opposed that motion still leave the
Magistrates liable upon the other three forms before-
Sientioned. The Honourable Member (Mr. Blake)
expressed his satisfaction that the subject, although
it had agitated the Country, was so ably' discussed on
both sidesyfor by this the People will see that mei-il
sures are trot carried here by the ipse dixit of ane-'
Minister; that Honourable Members 'were not drilled
in thevntes itrhiA they.g, ave;aaoften insinuates, and
that they at all events labonr, • intending to do that
Which is right 1; their honest judgment. He begged
rdon for having obtruded himself; he was no Law-.
ger, and, therefore, might be mistaken, but he could
not resist the impulse, when he considered the inflam-
matory tendency Of the speech of the Gallant Gene-
ral, calculated as it was to mislead and to encourage
raise population td open violence— (Hear, hear). '
1 Mr. 'RICARDO observed, that if the right of pp;
-I:itioning were the only'right Which the People were
Ito enjoy, it would be'of but litde value to theni.The
very essence of it, he conceived, was to meet in large
numbers, and shew sixth a front to Ministers as would
get the wishes of the Petitioners to be attended to,
and procure bad measures ao be abandoned. It was
the same *4th the House itself, which was a check
upon the Crown. If they could do nothing more
,than pass Resolutions, it was but of small avail ; but
:so enforce them they were armed *ith the power of
withholding the supplies, and calling forth public
opposition, so that the GovernMent could not become
despotic. He did not deny but that the etercise of
the right of meeting might be attended with grave in-
vonventencies. Distresses had arisen, and might arise,
over the causes of *bich no Government could have
apt' toinnifil, and of these, designing men might take
advide:agelOsiteite a mischievous spirit.- He was
'not averse toichecking such machinations, but he slid
not confider that the measures before them were a
sufficient check. That was only to be found in a Re-
form which should place the House in a situation to
express the sense of the whole People, and not in a
right to petition, which could only be employed by a
part of the Radical -Reformers. He expressed his
opinion, that though many among them were bad
and designing men, yet there were others who ho-
nestly entertained the belief, that Universal Suffrage
and Annual Parliaments were necessary to the salva-
tion of the country. He did not agree with them,
but he gave them credit for sincerity; and, for his
part, expected the same, when he declared that he
thought a Reform, far short of what they demanded,
would satisfy every desirable cbject, and that it would'
be wrong to proceed one Step further.
Mr:WAITHMAN opposed the measurers, asthe
People had not had time to express their sentiments
upon them. --ITC wished -to -know what was the ne-1
sessity for the hurry now manifested, seeing that
three months had elapsed since the .Manchester
Meeting, in which they originated, and no inconven
nience had arisen out of that delay ? Adverting
the Prince Regent's answer to the Common Council
Address, telling the Citizens that they were not in-
formed on the subject, he wondered that Ministers,
who were informed, had not yet thought prOper to
satisfy the country. Notwithstanding all the pa
produced, he had still to learn an" fact which could
induce him to alter his opinion, He then entered at
large into the 'business of the Smithfield Meeting,
and arrest of Harrison, insisting, that if any resistance,
had taken place, the Military were at hand to do as
they had done at Manchester. These Meetings he,
did not meats to say were jestifiable ; he had always
thought them dangerous and impolitic; foolish be.'
yend descriptien,perrucious, and ofall things the most
calculated to impede the cause of rational Reforenr—,
But how was the evil to be met ? He contended, by
conciliation. If every Nobleman had acted like Lord,
Fitzwilliam, that was the way to satisfy the People.
The House would do well to pursue the same course.;
It was called the Grand Inquest of the Nation, and ltd,
duty was to search into the oppressions of Ministers.
Often had the People complained, and come to the
ear requesting this to be done, but no remedy was
afforded; nothing but Gagging Bali and the suspen-
sion of the Habeas Corpus. And the effect was, that
the moment these restraints ceased to operate, the
people returned to the charge iti a worse state than
ever. What he advised, therefore, was to hear the,
people at the Bar, and redress their grievances as far
as possible. This wonld be better than listening to
declarations of loyalty, which were good for no-
thing else but to impute disaffection to wirers, and
*ere mostly signed by those, who in some way, or
other were benefited by the taus laid on the. People,
who were forty to one against them.---Having mixed
much with the lower and middle ranks, he could as-
, sure Gentlemen (judging from the Ward which he
rep reseloo '
sisted ,house 4 that they were better informed
thou mi 5 t be imagined, and would be glad of le-
i*, in the Government, though he co if,essed that
,ir ideas of Refenn might.be -wild. Ant visionary..
they bught not, therefore, col* cal ed reiblu-
'v ; if they were So, the doctrines of Sir L.

: '.

Raymond and Mr. Granville Sharpe, the beit of •
-s
men, were revolutionary. The distress to which
'he attributed the evils a the times, had arisen ,
from want of a due Representation. The mid.
die classes had been broken down till they could
not find work for the lower orders, and the measure
now proposed, far from mending this state of affairs,
could only depress them further till the spirit burst
out like a volcano, and brought ruin on all around.
The whole was a piece of trickery to cheat the People
of the Bill of Rights, and of their liberties, which
they did not owe to Government, but for which they .
had fought and bled. He would tell the House, •
then, what sort of measuiZ would do away the dis-
order. It would be, to agree to a Resolution, pray_- .
ing the Prince Regent to dismiss his Ministers. This
would change all the remonstances into congratula•
tions, and restore tranquillity to the Country. But,
instead of that, it was proposed to put down the
Constitution; and if it was allowed to be done for
five years, they would be no more either Britons.
or freemen. On the occasion of all preceding fer-
ments, or even rebellions, • no steps of this kind- had
been resorted to. He referred to the period of
Chinks H. when Resolutions of the People had
been stifled, and were not heard of for a time, but ,
immediately after the Revolution broke out. This
was the model on which Ministers seemed determined ,
to proceed, forgetful that the Revolution had insured
that freedom of the Press, and freedom of speech..
which they were now legislating to overthrow.--
They were told, that if they wished for a Meeting,
they might apply to the Lord Lieutenant : but he was
appointed by the Crown.. They might apply, too,
to the Sheriff, who was appointed he knew not how ;
and then they might resort to five Justices, who _
surely, it was said, would not refuse them. But
they had found, by experience, that at a time when
three millions of Taxes were to be imposed upon the
People, the Lord Mayor had refused to convene a
Meeting. These legislative steps they were to take
without absolutely any information ; for the anony- ,
moue witnesses-he could take for nothing. The story
which haefbeen told of 7060.merf attending a Meet-
ing with arms, had turned out only to be true "of inga
in buckram." They had been toad that respectable
Magistrates would not give erroneous statements re►
vecting the districts under their charge m but had ..
they forgotten that the Lord Mayor of London had
declared that he had Teseived information, on oath,
of a plot to set fire to the City, and to murder all
the inhabitants ?—( Hear, hear).—Why was not this
plot to be found in the Papers before the House ?
( Hear, hear)—especially as the Lord Mayor had
given information on the subject to Lord Sidmouth.
A serious consideration was, that it was out of the
district now said to be thus infected with revolu-
tionary principles ; that the army had always been,
and, if it became necessary, would again be recruited.
He could not help thinking it a delusion to cry up
those as disaffected, into whose hands the Ministers •
would not scruple tb put arms. At other times,
when the Habeas Corpus had been suspended, we
had been assailed by powerful foreign enemies. We
were now, with no foreign cause of alarm, to cut off ,
the most valuable parts of the Constitution. He con-
tended that the Meetings in parishes of small popu-
lation would be quite insufficient to convey the po-
pular feeling, as the persons meeting would be un-
der the immeJiate controul of powerful individuals.
The cause of the evils of the country, he contended,
was• to be found in the continuance of a war expen-
diture, at a time when our competition with foreign
countries compelled the Manufacturers to reduce the
price of their commodities, or to be excluded from
much of the market which they would otherwise
enjoy. He concluded, after expressing his opinion
that it was not possible to put down the vs-,ice of the
People, by observing that there was a strong feeling
for a sound and rational Reform, and that to satisfy .
this feeling would be the best way to procure a free
population, fit to defend the Constitution.—Hear, hear.
Mr. T. WILSON (Member for the City), said, he
felt it to be the duty of every man, boldly to declare
his opinion at a critical time, like the present. He
owned that poverty and distress were the causes of
the disaffection. But as there were no remedies pro-
posed, immediately to remove those causes, it was
their duty to prevent the disaffection from producing
other evil consequences. But it was not to be' said
that because they supported coercive measures, shey
were insensible to the ,diAresses of the poor. e
Loyal Declarations, which had been incttlpated,
were, in his opinion, necessary, to prevent it from
being said that the country was unanimously op.
posed to such measures as the present—(Hcer, hear).
It had been said that the majorities in the House did .
not speak the general sense of the Members, becawe
there were so many Members on that side who were
attached by interest to Ministers. This was true to - .
a certain extent—( Hear, hear).--But be asked, if
the Gentlemen in opposition would use their patronage
to pioduce the same effect, if they obtained the fulfil-
ment of their wishes ? He thouglit the measures
should be continued for at least tour or five years,
as there would otherwise be great uneasiness in the
country, ando 4emand fOr an Increase of the Stand-
ir /war).
-Mr. G. LAMB was of opinion, that the measures .'
in the contemplation of Ministers, would add to the
evil they professed to remove. There were two re-
medies for the distress of the country—one was the
equalization of the income with the expenditure, and
the other was Pailiarnentary Reform. The taxes fell
Much more heavily on the lower than the higher
ellisses. It would be highly expedient to take off the
tails on salt, malt, and leather, and to impose a di-
rest tax on property. It would be for the advantage
of justice if the Grand Jury, in the case of the Man-
chester transactions, should be- released from their
oaths. A letter, dated July the sth, just twelve days
before the prorogation of Parliament, and signed by
five Magistrates, had been sent to.Lord.Sidmouth,
stating their apprehensions of the state of things in
that part of the country ; and, notwithstanding that
information, Ministers had allowed Parliament
separate. The Grand Jury at Manchester might•ha,
ignored the Bills, in coesequency of not having
mined some of ,the witnesses; and one witness
given different evidence before the Grand Jury from
&at he afterwards gave nu the trial.
' tdatd,srANLE‘ begged to state, that in the event
of beinealtled on by Varliament, or in a Coon '
Juraic,e, 111 Grandiorrerr twat bound to state. his
M
'•••ona, notwithstanding his oath. aie
Mr. B. WILBRAHAM wished to know, if

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