The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-04-23 00:00:00

fmptrtal Varitaintnt.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—THURSDAY.
Several petitions were presented and laid on the table.
COMMITTEE ON CRIMES IN IRELAND.
Lord RODEN said he would take this opportunity of stating
a few words respecting the committee which had been formed
by their lordships for the investigation of crime in Ireland.
It had been stated in another place, that the committee was
composed of a number as 13 to 5 in point of political opini-
ons upon the matters to be now investigated. That, how-
ever, had been immediately set right by a right hon. gentle-
man reading to the House of Commons, ten names of noble
lords opposite, who were originally appointed for the com-
mittee. But this committee had assumed much—too much
importance in the eyes of the country, in consequence of the
course noble lords had taken, for him to allow it to go for-
ward for one moment, that an inquiry of so grave a kind
was likely to be submitted to a committee of a doubtful cha-
racter, without giving that statement the flattest contradic-
tion. For his own part it mattered not to him what names
were put on the committee—all he was anxious for was,
that the committee should be composed of individuals
whose object would be to take a just view on the subjects to
be submitted to them. The committee had already met
twice. It met on the day after its appointment, on which
occasion its chairman was chosen. It met again and sum-
moned thirty witnesses to attend after the vacation. On
neither of those occasions did any of the noble lords on the
other side of the house attend, and he was now anxious to
inquire of the noble president of the council, who was upon
that committee, whether it was or was not the intention of
noble lords on the other side to attend the proceedings of
that committee, because it was necessary that the committee
should be filled up by persons in whom the country should
have confidence.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it was his inten-
tion to attend the committee ; and he believed he could say
as much on behalf of his noble friend who was near him,
who also was in her majesty's service.
The Earl of RODEN then give notice that he would move
for the substitution of other noble lords as members of the
committee.
Lord MELBOURNE moved that the amendment of the
Commons to the ecclesiastical appointments suspension bill
should be adopted.
The Bishop of EXETER objected to it as wholly at variance
with the bill, and as having been introduced to enable the
government to complete the appointment of Lord Wriothesly
Russell, &c.
The Duke of WELLINGTON recommended that a separate
bill should be introduced for that purpose.
After some further discussion the consideration of the
question was postponed, and the house adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-THURSDAY.
ADJOURNED DEBATE. _ _ _

A great number of petitions petitions were presented in favour of
the present government of Ireland.
Mr. M. J. O'Comezi.i., at considerable length, defended
the recent administration of Ireland, and attacked the tory
system of government. He also asserted the legality and
propriety of the Precursor Society.
Mr. John Young, Sir Charles Douglas, and Sir F. Trench
briefly supported the amendment, and Sir David Roche and
Mr. William Roche the original motion.
Mr. PLuurraz said that, with respect to the motion be-
fore the house, and the observations which had been made
upon it, he was disposed to treat the religion of the majority
with respect, and to have it in connection with the state, if
it were the true religion—" oh, oh," and cries of " hear,
hear," from the ministerial side) ;—but the greatest bane to
the peace and happiness of Ireland was the influence of a nu-
merous, an ignorant, an immoral, and a political Roman
Catholic priesthood. (" Hear, hear," from the ministerial
side, and cries of " oh.") Give. the people the Bible for
their guide. Give them that book. which taught them their
duty to their God and to their fellow-men ; that book, the
use of which, nevertheless, was forbidden by the Roman
Catholic priesthood. Hence arose the ignorance and misery
which prevailed in Ireland. He would repeat, give to the
people of Ireland, instead of the anathemas which were thun-
dered forth continually from the altars of the Roman Catho-
lics, give to them the holy Gospel, unmutilated, in its full and
free state, and he would vouch for it that, ere long, there
would be a different state of things. By the policy which the
government had pursued, the cause of Protestantism in Ire-
land had been materially weakened. On these grounds, there-
fore, he regretted he could not give his support to her Ma-
jesty's government, and he should firmly oppose the motion
of the noble lord. In repect to the proceedings in the other
house of parliament, he never could believe that the motion of
the noble earl was intended and carried by the House of Lords
as a vote of censure upon the present government. The amend-
ment which had been proposed by his right hon. friend the
member for Tamworth, he should support, considering it, as
he did, a wise and proper way of meeting the question at issue.
Mr. HOME supported the motion. It was not a general
vote of confidence, but merely approved of the best part of
the ministerial policy.
Lord MORPETII addressed the house at great length. He
congratulated the house on the tone of moderation of the
leaers of the opposition, and remarked on the attempt—a
solitary, most unwise, most illiberal, and in this day he hoped,
most desperate and hopeless attempt on the part of the hon.
member for Kent (Mr. Plumptre) to introduce into the debate
a spirit of religious discord, and to renew the fires—he trusted
the waning and expiring fires—of religious strife and quarrel.
(Loud cheers.) He remarked on the inconsistencies of the
gentlemen on the other side, some accusing the government,
and others declaring it was pot accused. He then proceeded
to reply to the charges of Mr. Shaw, and prove that all the
accusations against Lord Normanby for improper liberation
of prisoners were unfounded—that the prerogative of mercy
was judiciously used, and in two cases specifically referred to,
in that of Brennan with the consent of the judge, and in that
of Gahan by the advice of the law officers of the crown, on
evidence unknown to the judge on the trial. He severely
censured the honourable and learned member for making such
groundless charges and untrue statements. His lordship then
proceeded to analyse the criminal returns, which he contended
were extremely favourable. Allusion had already been made,
in the course of the debate, to the diminution in the strength
esamivd, Als.g.us..V.FAtti.a4e.pm2try wo,uy. continue
in
poor law guardians would be found very valuable auxiliaries.
He had received a letter from the president of the poor law
commissioners in Ireland, stating that the guardians, in point
of intelligence and public spirit, were generally on a level with
those of England ; and that although in two or three cases
symtoms of party spirit had appeared, yet on the whole he
had found no such interference to speak of, and the system
was working remarkably well. His lordship then read seve-
ral documents from different parts of Ireland, to show the in-
creasing good order and value of land. Of these the follow-
ing is a specimen :—" Mr. Drew Atkin has been for the last
fifteen years actively and professionally engaged in the sale
and purchase of lands, within which period he has superin-
tended sales of land in value about £20,000, and purchases of
land in value about £300,000, in the counties of Cork,
Limerick, and Tipperary, and he has much pleasure in com-
municating the result of the information so acquired to Mr.
Drummond. Mr. D. Atkin assumes the enquiry to fee-sim-
ple land, or an estate equal to a fee. Lands fifteen years ago
usually sold for 16 2-3 to 18 years' purchase. Ten years ago
from 18 to 20 years' purchase. Five years ago 20 years pur-
chase may be considered the standand value. At the present
time 22 to 224 years' purchase is required, and 21 to 22 years'
purchase freely given. Mr. Drew Atkin takes permission to
add that the recent and almost sudden advance in the value
of land is attributed to the tranquillity produced by the late
enactments in respect to tithes, (although not considered a
final measure,) and the development had of the probable
working of the poor laws in this country.-30, Southmall,
Cork, April 13, 1839." His lordship then, after some other
statements, proceeded to claim for the government the re-
spect and affections of the Irish people. It was not only the
Roman Catholics who viewed in government the determined
adherents of that banner which had been called a mere party
banner, but which was the banner of justice, of equal laws,
of real as well as nominal equality. (Hear.) Their supporters
were in the north as well as the south, protestants as well as
catholics ! The proud name of Geraldine lent them its sanc-
tion, and with them was linked the lordly family of Charle-
mont. If the decision were left to Irish hearts to decide, the
cause of the administration would be won with a proud triumph.
The vote of the Lords was an attempt to supersede govern-
ment in the due conduct and controul of the executive go-
vernment of Ireland, and to substitute another system at
variance with it. (Hear, hear.) " But be this as it may,"
the noble lord said, in conclusion, " at all events we are now
determined to have this point cleared up. (Cheers.) We will
not accept your commentaries, nor your gloss, nor your pal-
liations. We will leave no room for ambiguity. We have
had enough of partial attacks and isolated charges ; of inuen-
does and abuse ; of motions for papers here, and for com-
mittees there. (Hear.) We now come for a direct, an un-
equivocal opinion at your hands ; we will take no low ground ;
we will exist no longer on sufferance. (Loud cries of ' Hear,
hear,' from the opposition benches.) We tell you that we
will not put up with passive acquiescence, or bare endurance.
(Hear, hear.) We will not be even contented with acquittal.
My noble friend asks you this night for a direct, downright
vote of approbation. (Hear, hear.) In the name of the
Irish government, and of the whole government, as impli-
cated in its Irish policy, I assert fearlessly that we have de-
served well of our country. (Loud cheers.) This is a con-
viction that no taunt of yours can lessen the force of, and
upon this issue I call you, the representative of the empire,
to come this night to the vote."

Sir J. GRAHAM, seeing that, in the latter part of his
speech, the noble lord announced that her majesty's govern-
ment considered this a direct vote of approbation, and that
they should no longer be content to exist by sufferance—
(loud cheers)—he thought he might venture to offer some ob-
servations to the house on the present state of affairs. He
had endeavoured, during the course of this long-protracted
debate, to form some conjecture as to what was the real mo-
tive of the proposition brought forward by the noble lord ;
he had been in great doubt on the subject, and that doubt was
not yet removed. Finding that it was unprecedented, he
certainly must say he should suspect that it was to pick a
quarrel with the house of lords, at a moment which was con-
sidered convenient, and when the noble lord thought, on the
whole, that it was desirable to steal a vote of approbation
from a bare majority of that house, on the only point he
could venture to suggest for the purpose of propping and
buttressing up a weak and tottering administration. (Loud
cheers.) If the noble lord really believed that the effect of
the vote to-night would be to prop up that administration, he
could understand the proceeding ; the motive would justify
the unexampled effort. (Cheers.) But having heard the
speech of the hon. member for the city of London—having
heard the declaration made from various quarters on the op-
posite side of the house by some of the more powerful sup-
porters of ministers on the present evening—having heard also
the declaration of the noble lord, which he had heard with
sincere pleasure, that, in a matter of primary importance
affecting the representation of the people, it was his resolu-
tion not to depart from the ground he took up when he in-
troduced the reform bill under the government of Lord
Grey; and having heard from a large portion of his friends
that in that case they could not continue to support him, he
was quite convinced that the days of the administration he
saw opposite were numbered. (Cheers.) That they were
ebout to fall, not from any attack of their enemies—not from
any hostile measure resorted to by that side of the house—
(cheers)—but from an honest division of opinion on a matter
of great national interest ; and then he asked how could they
justify the vote of the present evening? It was dangerous in
its consequences, if a quarrel with the House of Lords
should be the event. (Cheers.) It was unexampled—it was
unprecedented ; and if not to save the administration, what
was its justification ? He said it was like a cordial administered
to a dying man when it could not save the patient. (Loud
cheers.) The noble lord who had just sat down said he should
argue the question first on the necessity of the motion;
and, secondly, on the propriety of its terms ; he (Sir J.
Graham) was prepared to join issue upon both grounds.
First of all, then, he denied the necessity of the motion. He
contended that the motion, which on searching the lord's
journals they had now before them in its precise form, did
not, by any fair construction of its terms, contain a censure
on Lord Normanby's government. It stated, undoubtedly,
what he was prepared to contend for, that in the present con-
dition of Ireland life and property were not secure ; it did
not pronounce that so unhappy a state of things must be
traced to the policy of her Majesty's government; that was
the subject matter of inquiry. (Cheers.) Amidst a vast
variety of contrary statements, charges, and recrimination,
matters had arrived at that point where inquiry was indis-
pensible. (Loud cheers.) That enquiry had been consti-
tuted by a competent tribunal, an independent branch of the
legislature ; and, with his right hon. friend, in the present
state of matters, he denied the constitutional right and poli-
tical expediency of the House of Commons interfering to
intercept that inquiry. (Loud cheers.) What was the ob-
ject of ministers in making this motion ? Was it their object
to intercept the inquiry, or was it not? If they did not seek

to intercept it, the motion was gratuitous; but if they meant
to intercept it, then he maintained they could only effect
their purpose by endeavouring to intimidate the House of
Lords by a vote of the Commons, by endeavouring to over-
awe them in the legitimate exercises of their proper functions.
(Loud cheers.) He wished very shortly, to state his reasons
for combating the second resolution of the noble lord—
namely, that the terms of the motion were proper and neces-
sary. He/could conceive nothing more interesting than an
inquiry into the state of Ireland. As a great moral lesson,
it demanded earnest and immediate inquiry. But, besides

its moral aspect, there was a great politic-al and statistical
inquiry, which was well worthy the attention of the legisla-
ture. He wanted to know how it was that, in Ireland, a
dense population, subsisting principally by spade husbandry,
and occupying small portions of land, should be considered
the curse of the country, and the certain source of poverty
and destitution ; while in Belgium, a country, the soil of
which is not more fertile, and the climate not more genial, a
population more dense, relying equally on spade husbandry,
and occupying still smaller portions of land, were in the full
enjoyment of peace, abundance, prosperity, and contentment,
to a degree delightful to every passing beholder. These were
grave subjects, well worthy inquiry ; and if inquiry were to
be instituted, what tribunal could be conceived more com-
petent to deal with the subject than a committee of the House
of Lords ? There were upon that committee some of the
greatest landed proprietors in Ireland—the Duke of Leinster,
the Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord Plunkett, and, if eminence
in political and statistical knowledge were required, Lord
Brougham. He wished to know where those pressing and
important questions could be better investigated than before
that tribunal. (Hear, hear.) While Lord Normanby posi-
tively denied that crime and outrage in Ireland had any con-
nection whatever with 'secret combination or any political
object, Lord Wellesly had positively averred that political
combination and prfedial outrage were as inseparable as
cause and effect. (Hear, hear.) Was not this, then,
he asked, a fit subject for inquiry ; and one which a
committee of the House of Lords was most competent
to investigate ? Lord Normanby was a member of that
committee, and might attend its meetings, and support
his own views and opinions by examination. Did he under-
stand the noble lord opposite to say that Lord Normanby
declined to act on the committee ?—[Lord J. RUSSELL : Yes.]
—The investigation might continue, he conceived, even if
Lord Normanby thought fit to withdraw. It might be car-
ried on with equal effect in his absence ; it was not to be
supposed that the house of lords would decline to prosecute
the inquiry merely on account of any pique, or a refusal on
Lord Normanhy's part to attend.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He
would not go into the details of all the cases that had been
brought before the house ; but he would state his conviction
that, as the matter now stood, Lord Normanby had frequent-
ly listened to, private solicitations with respect to the exercise
of the prerogative of mercy.—(Hear, hear.) Sometimes, on
his own admission, Dr. Vignolles, his chaplain, interceded,
sometimes, a catholic priest—(" oh, oh")—and sometimes, a
country gentleman. Sometimes the lord lieutenant had
granted pardons without consulting the judges. Sometimes,
after consulting them, he had laid aside their opinion, and
attended, in preference, to private solicitations. Colonel
Shaw Kennedy's retirement from office remained yet unex-
plained ; Lord Donoughmore had declared that he was pre-
pared with proofs of the maladministration of patronage, and
the noble lord opposite attempted to get rid of these serious
and important questions, by telling the house that an inquiry
by a committee of the lords was inconvenient. Convenient
that these grave matters loudly called for inquiry, he would
very briefly return the question of the principles—the princi-
ples, forsooth—that guided the executive government of Ire-
land.—(Cheers.) He had not the slightest notion to what
measures the principles mentioned in the resolution were in-
tended to be applied. If to the question of municipal insti-
tutions, the two houses were on that subject completely
agreed. At the beginning of the present session, they con-
curred in an address to the throne, declaring that the reform
of the municipal corporations was essential to the happiness
and prosperity of Ireland. They had sent up a bill for that
purpose last session, which in its leading principles was
adopted by the lords; the sole difference which occurred was
on a matter of detail. With respect to the Irish church,
when noble lords opposite asked the house to perpetuate the
principles on which they had acted, he (Sir J. Graham) must
declare that, though he had listened with the greatest atten-
tion to the debates last year, he could not discover what
those principles were. On one side, there were her majesty's
speech and the declaration of the noble Secretary for the
Home Department, and on the other the avowed opinions of
the Viceroy of Ireland and the Secretary at War. How was
the house to express its confidence in an administration thus
divided in its opinions? By what means was it to ascertain
what were the principles of the ministry ? In the absence of
any other materials for forming a judgment, the house must
resort to the principle " noscitur a sociis," and turn from
the professions of the ministry to the character of its
supporters ; and in that point of view it was natural
to look to that supporter on whom the principal reliance
of the ministry depended. That honorable and learned
gentleman was not then in the house, and he (SirJ. Graham)
could not express himself so freely as he should otherwise
have done ; but this he could not help saying, that, if they
were to affirm the principles avowed by the chief supporter
of the ministry, principles more dangerous to the security of
the empire could not be imagined. That hon. and learned
gentleman had declared that the utter extinction of all church
property in Ireland was necessary to the honour of the Ca-
tholic population in that country ; and•that, unless that, and
an extension of the elective franchise, were effected, all ex-
pectation of justice to Ireland would have signally failed,
and the flag of repeal must be unfurled, never again to be laid
down. It was only necessary to add, that to the hon. and
learned gentleman who entertained these sentiments, the
present government had offered the highest judicial situation
in Ireland next to the great seal. (Loud cheers.) To return
to the object of the present resolution, that resolution would
be utterly pointless, unless its intention was to intimidate the
House of. Lords ; it could not in any other way interfere with
the inquiry before that house. Then it was said that it was
necessary to guard against the revival of orange ascendancy
and domination. Now, of all the chimerical and visionary
danVers that ever entered into the mind of man, this appeared
to be the least rational. This was not the time to entertain
any such fear—old things had passed away—new ones had
come in their turn—the sun could not go back upon the dial,
and he was no more afraid of the return of orange domina-
_ 41- 0,, lord_
lieutenancy of the Earl of Strafford. He did not conceive
that any government of Ireland could stand for one day which
acted upon exclusive principles, or that since the passing of
the emancipation act any one could retain power in that
country except by means of a fair and impartial administra-
tion of justice, and a fair and equal distribution of patronage,
according to good conduct, ability, and private worth, and
without reference to religious opinions. Such were the prin-
ciples on which his right hon. friend, the member for Tam-
worth, would have proceeded to govern Ireland. (Cries of
" No" from the ministerial side, answered by cheers from
the opposition.) His right hon. friend had declared that
such were his principles, and he (Sir J. Graham) might ap-
peal to his right hon. friend's known honour, integrity, and
firmness, as sufficient guarantees that he would have carried
into effect the principles which he professed. (Loud cheers
from the opposition.)
On the motion of Mr. T. DUNCOMBE, the debate was then
adjourned to the following doy (Friday).
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at one o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—FRIDAY.
The royal assent was given, by commission, to the Conso-
lidated Fund Bill, the two Mutiny Bills, and several private
bills.

Lord BuouGHAm again called attention to the ordinance
for the establishment of a free press in Malta, and, after
some sparring between his lordship and the Marquis of Nor-
manby, a copy of the ordinance was ordered to be laid before
the house.

Several petitions were presented in favour of Mr. R. Hill's
postage plan.
Petitions were also presented against the new poor law.
Lord ABINGER alluded to the system going on in Lanca-
shire of arming the people, and said he had reason to believe
that the magistrates who took an active part in enforcing the
laws had some apprehension for their lives. He concluded
by impressing on the government the necessity of attending
to the subject. . .

Lord MELBOURNE brought in a bill to carry into effect
the amendment of the Commons in the Ecclesiastical Ap-
pointments Suspension Bill.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY brought in a bill to ex-
tend to archbishops and bishops the privilege enjoyed by the
rest of the clergy, relative to the rebuilding and repairing of
their houses.

Both bills were read a first time, after which the house
adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—FRIDAY.
. _ __

After some discussion on the second reading of the New-
castle-upon-Tyne and North Shields (Tynemouth Extension)
Railway Bill, that measure was lost on a division, the ayes
being 70 and the noes 107—majority against it 37.
Lord MORPETH, in answer to inquiry from Mr. Lucas,
said that it would not be practicable to present the report of
the resolution regarding railways in Ireland.
Mr. LUCAS gave notice, that whenever that report was
brought forward, he should move a resolution upon it.
Sir F. TRENCII gave notice, that he should call attention
to the proposed plan of adopting the oxygen Bude light, and
to the danger to which it would expose the house itself, as
well as hon. members.

Lord J. RUSSELL stated, in answer to Sir R. Peel's in-
quiry, that on Monday he proposed to read the Jamaica
Government Bill a second time—then to hear counsel at the
bar, and to take the debate on the principle of the bill on
the question of going into committee.