Star.
London, England, 1821-03-15 00:00:00

'eft demands oldie service, 1i should now stain, thet
'two yeat2 ago 30,000 men leere thought sufficient fee
the Coleiles.l Suppose, Isers, that kteditetion of 1400
' or 1500 men to* pace nt,T•fift or he lonian
Wads,' stig; there woOdd be loft iltlte of above I
50,000ineer, inchiding rti l y, withlo,ooo of the
Veteran Battalion, and the total number of regular
troops in England and, Ireland would be 65.000, be-
sides 37,000 Yeomanry, and 20,000 Volunteers. The
whole available force mtght be estimated at upwards
of 100,000 men ;, and,, uport anemergency, 200,000
might be put into requisition. Gentlemen on his side
of the House laboured-only for ncenomy. It was at
present difficult to foresee. anything that would pre-
vent this country from asserting its.rights and inde-
pendence ; but Weyer that unfortunate disaster should
occur, it would only be brought on by the infatua-
tion. f a Government which' refused to give the
country a fair means of recruiting•its energies, after
an unexampled contester-(Neer, hear).—Out of a
Revenue of £54,000,000, we had but I:6,000,000
available, which, including the interest on the un-
funded debt, made the Whole amount only to *bait
1:20,000,000. We had nothing else to which iv could
resort, except the Sinking Fund—a fund that was re:
presented so sacred that it could not be touched. It
was quite impossible to efiect economy in any other
way, except by a retrenchment of the Estimates. It
as with surprise that he heard it asked by an Ho-
nourable Member opposite, What individual will
,he relieved by these reductions, should they take'
place?' He protested against such a mode of argu-
ing. rle admitted that the situation of each indivi-
dual could nos be made much better ; but certainly
nothing could be done to make it worse.—(Hear,
hear).—The Right Honourable the Chancellor of the
Exchequer talked of the improving state of our Fi-
nances, but there was no man who looked seriously
at the state of the country, that could agree with the
Right Hon. Gentleman. He would now conclude by
moving, as an Amendthent, that 71,468 ma be sub-
stituted for 81,468.
Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN went into some. details to
show that the 10,000 men proposed to be reduced
constituted the only disposable force which the coun-
try had for reliefs in foreign possessions. If the amend-
ment was carried, the consequence must-be, that re-
giments, after having served nine years in the East
Indies, would be allowed only three years to remain
at home before they ware sent out again. By being
left with too small a force, foreign Powers, when ac-
quainted with the fact, might take advantage of our
inability to oppose them, while they commenced an
attack npon us. The Honourable Member observed,
in conclusion, that the Honour able Member for Aber-
deen was one of the best friends which the Noble
Lord (Castlereagh) had, from the nature of the op-
position which he gave to all the measures of the
Noble Lord—(Near, hear).
Mr. N. CALVERT spoke in favour of the amend-
ment. He thought that Gibraltar was a great source
of expense, and productive of no sort of advantage
to this country. It cost us now half a million of
money, and in the time of war that amount was
doubled. It did not command the entrance to the
Mediterranean, and had no harbour. -He thought
also that the lonian Islands might with advantage be
got rid of, and at least half the household troops
might be reduced, and their place supplied by police
officers, a description of force in which chit country
was very much deficient.
Mr. HUME said, he was not disposed to give up
the lonian Islands, but would make them pay their
own expense. He agreed with an Honourable Mem-
ber opposite, in the assertion that he (Mr. Hume) was
the best friend of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), if
the Noble Lord followed the good advice he gave
him—(Loughter).—By doing so, he would be per-
fectly secure in his place, and nothing on earth could
disturb him. But if the Honourable Member meant
to say that any reduction which he (Mr. Hume)pro-
posed created a feeling in the country in favour of
the Noble Lord, then he spurned the insinuation.—
The Honourable Member entitled to the protracted
discussions of a former night. But who resisted every
proposition which he (Mr. Hume) and his friends had
brought forward? The Honourable Member and his,
party—(Lovghter).—Who were they that were rea-
sonable? The party which he (Mr. Hume) had
joined—(Loud laughter).—He would say the reason-
able party; for when they agreed, like regular men,
to go to bed at one o'clock, they were strenuously
opposed ! Who was the reasonable man, he or the
Honourable Member, who resisted in every instance?
Hel—(C,ontinuedlaughter).—What would the country
have thought if the House had allowed three or four
millions to be voted away after one o'clock ?
(Hear, hear),The Honourable Member then argued
that the country had now a greater appearance of
tranquillity than in 1792, and he contended that the
household troops ought to be reduced. As to India,
he would state there was no regular relief there worth
consideration. When he was in India he saw scarcely
any relief. The men did not desire it. The Offi-
cers, the Staff, and perhaps a few soldiers came home,
but the great majority of them volunteered into
other regiments, preferring to remain in India; and
the cause was a very natural one—namely, that after
being there *n years they became so habituated to
the climate that they did not desire to return home.
He believed that during the last twenty years so much
as five thousand men did not return in consequence
of reliefs. The reliefs, therefore, in India might be'
left altogether out of the question. He was quite
satisfied, on the whole, that the number of men said
to be required for this purpose was greatly over-
charged, and he was convinced that a reduction
might be made in the whole establishment of at least
20,000 men. The duties required to be performed
could be adequately discharged by 60,000 men, in-
stead of 80,000. The Noble Lord had taken great
credit for saving L'74,000 in the Commissariat De-
partment. Now the House would recollect that this
reduction was in comparison only with the Estimate
of last year, when a much greater charge was al-
lowed than was necessary. In the Barrack Depart-
ment also it was said that £117,000 was saved. This
also was only in comparison with last year, when
there had been a considerable increase in this depart-
ment. With regard to the reduction which had taken
place in the Army, he contended, that if ten batta-
lions of the line had been reduced, instead of ten bat-
talioes of veterans, it would have saved the country
a sum exceeding £BO,OOO. The principal reasons
alleged for keeping up the present establishment were
the increase of public works, and the increase and re•

4duded to
.ic works, it was.
men than formerly sidn siequired for them. He
would ask. the Noble Lordoints a larger force required
to defend Hull and Portsmouth now, than in 1792?
Why were the garrisons increased, in those and in'
other places, beyond the number of 1792? But even
supposing such a large force necessary, why was it,
not composed of veteran troops? They
would have,
performed the service quite as well, and with much
less expense to the Country. With regard to the 40-
lonies, he eonefclered 30,000 men a great.deal too
large al force to guard against surprises, at a moment
When not 'a single hostile flag was flying on the
ocean, -nor a single man-of-war belonging to England
was afloat for the purpose of guarding against dan-
ger, At the utmost, he contended, 1500 men would',
be sufficient for the relief of the Colonies. In his
statement on a former night, he omitted entirely to
enumerate 38 Regiments, and Battalions, consisting
of 21,000 in all, 'of disembodied Militia, in Ireland.
They were disembodied, it was true, but they were
liable to be called out on a few days' notice. Includ-
ing this force with the Yeomanry Cavalry of Eng-
land, and adding to these the regular military esta-
blishments in this country, he stated that there were,
in the whole, at present, 207,000 men, either in arms,
or ready to be called out to bear arms at a short no-
tice—(Hear, hear).—Was it possible that the House
could support the Ministers in asking such a large
establishment as this ? The Noble Lord had said,
thA by making the Regiments consist of 650 men
each, he could add 34,000 men to the whole esta-
blishment, without adding more than two subalterns
to each company. If that was the case, was it not a
direct proof that the number of Officers at present
was too large, and that they, ought to be reduced ?
His opinion was, that 20,000 men ought to be re-
duced. He would, howeatar, support , the present
motion for reducing 10.000. men, as be would be
glad to have any reduction' at all. The increase of
the Staff had been enorMous‘y diserroportionate to the
Staff of 1792. The Noble Lerd, indeed, said that
the Staff of that period was, so small, that no business
was done, 'or that it was done badly. This was a
curious kind of enlogium oft the Ministry of Mt. Pitt
—at least it was an admisSion that the charge of irre-
gularity which hadbeeri so Often made against that'
Ministry from this side of the House, but which was
denied to be just by the other side, was founded
truth—(Hear, hear). It was a fact worthy of remark,,
that since the yesorlBl6 the Duke of Cork had filled;
up 1105 new Commissions, while by the Returns it
appeared that there were 7000 Officers on half-pay
Why had not those 1105 Commissions been, given to
Officers already on half-pay ? and that alone would
have produced a saving off 81,000 a-year. Thus the,
patronage of his Royal Highness had 'cost tyre Nation
an immense sum since 1816. The gallant' General,
Member for Truro (Sir H. Vivian), had talked of the
distresses of Officers upon half-pay, and had asked,
whether the object were to reduce them ? , No : the
object was to advance them, and to place at least a
large number in circumstances of comparative afflu-
ence. He (Mr. Hume) agreed that at present they
were living upon a miserable pittance; and it was so
because Ministers had prevented them from seeking
an honourable employment in foreign countries,
by fighting the battles of liberty and independence—'
(Hear, hear).—lt was true that they now led in this
country a deplorable existence ; but it was not for
those who had brought in-and carried the abominable
Foreign Enlistment Bill to talk of it, since they were in
a great degree the cause of their sufferingss--(Hear).
If such compassion were felt for them, why had they
not been advanced from half to full pay ? Why had
not the Duke of York selected them for the 1105
Commissions, instead of taking those Whose past ser-,
vices gave them not the slightest claim? At this'
moment he (Mr. Hume) believed there were many
half-pay Comets at School, having had Commissions
given them merely that they might retire upon half-•
pay, and then finish their edecation! The Honour-
able Member concluded by stating, that in none of.
his remai ks he had intended to touch individuals:—
he had directed his attacks only against the extrava-:
gant and ruinous system of expenditure.
Sir H. H AR DING E said, the system of the Guards:
had been inquired into by the Comminie in 113117,
who had recommended no change. If they svere
re-modelled, without the additional pay to which the
men were entiticici 'by the terms of their enlistment,
they would not be more expensive than the regiments
of the line, except by 2501. on a battalion of 650 men.
It had been said by the lion. Member for Aberdeen,
that the change of dress in the Guards was expen-
sive; but the Hon. Member might have found, by
inquiring of every military man, that in the Guards„
as in all the regiments of the service, the expense of
the change of dress fell on the Colonels. As to the
alleged inefficiency of the Guards, from 'their not
serving out of Europe, he denied that there .vas any.
regulation which prevented them from doing
Had they not served in America during the American
war? Had they not served in Egypt ?—(Hear, hear):
It was true that it was not customary to send them
out of Europe; but neither was it customary to send,
Light Infantry—(Hear, hear)—who eonseqnentlif
were, with regard to efficiency, on the same footitig
as the Guards. The efficiency of the Guards in the
field had been admitted. The proportion of them
that had been opposed to the enemy was greater, in
fact, than that of the regiments of the line, which
arose from the circumstance blamed by the Honour-
able Member, viz. their being exempted from the
colonial garrison duties. The manner in which they
had been made available at Waterloo, and in the
Peninsula war, was well known. That regiment,
in which he had the honour to serve, the Ist Guards,'
had been renewed three times during the war; and
the consumption of the seven battalions amounted
to 28,000 orren.( Hear, hear).—With respect to the'
assertion that the Guards were kept up for itiete drew,
he asserted that their duties were more severe than
the ordinary duties of regiments of the line. Indeed,
they were so hard worked by their ordinary duties,
that when they were called on any eniergency, they
had not strength to do the duty. From all the inqui-
ries he had made respecting the Guards,. there was
no ground for the assertion that they were an over-

grown establishment. One hundred and fifty
igo, when they were first raised, ri,cy.Kern 'ear%
battalions ; in 1792 they were seven hattaliontsn"
they were seven battalions now. There was
Ition of one light company to each battalion;
u act *14,..
urrh
addition was also made in the line. Of the line
Here
were sixty battalions in 1792, now there ate lap
but the number of battalions of the Guards had
mained the same. In each company, in 1792,
tibi"
were Forty-seven men, now there were seventy.re,.,
but there was still the same number of Olcer,-;:
before, three to each company ; thus the expense,:
not raised with the numbers. A suggestion CI
been thrown out that the pay of soldiers othol
henceforward should be diminished, because (it 1,-;
said) the wages of labourers had only been increased--
eiwndghiaicteellchyittaPerwakeinilfil
as five to four, while the pay of the soldier hta been
doubled. This was a misconception of the ther,
because, though there was an increase of actal pay
a great number of other allowanees had been
pawfathyisTsihxepesonlcdeiersperhadclaynowwassismahc.mill
the Government for Ms ration. When prow. • '
were high the soldier gained, when they were low
the Government gained by the bargain. Then et„
mained another sixpence with which he had to
pro.
vide shirts, washing, pipe-clay,
cuhred would cost the most frugal soldier three,
pence-halfpenny or threepence-farthing; the 'emit.,
ing twopence halfpenny was all he had to supple
himself with beer, tobacco, and other luta
(Hear, hear). If there was a Property Tax oa the
soldier it must come solely out of this t
aopeoth
halfpenny. The question of reliefs had beta sag,
ciently discussed by the Noble Secretary of War.
as the Honourable Member for Aberdeen
many men in India volunteered to remain there,the
regiments must be changed, because the Olken
would not submit to perpetual banishment. lathe
West Indies he (Sir H. Hardinge) feared reliefs wadi
be necessary every five rather than every tea yeas.
He had always understood that Gibraltar denim
great advantages to our fleets, from the facility of
refitting, and he referred to the instance when Sint.
Saumarez blockaded a fleet which had taken shelter
in Algeciras.
Mr. N. CALVERT observed, we had no thee
possession of Malta.
Mr. GOIJLBURN complained, that though the
discussion had been adjourned to give Members she
had not expressed their opinions an opportunity if
speaking, no one had that night spoken who Wait
spoken on Monday, except the Member for Hertford
—(A laugh). The Honourable Member applied
self to answer the charges against the Military Esti.
blishment in the Colonies ; especially the Mediterra-
nean Colonies and St. Helena. In 1792 the garriaa
of Gibraltar, the only one we had in the Mediterra-
nean, had 8,335 men. Malta, it was universally ac.
knowledged, required as large a garrison as Gibral-
tar; yet with Malta and the lonian Isles our force
had only increased to 7,000 men. In St. Helen,
the cause of so great a force was the sense oftheini-
pOrtifice Of the cusiody of Bonaparte, and the tdtl
at the same time to subject him to little personal re.
straint ; in consequence of which many large guards
were necessary in various parts of the Island. The
Hohoerable Member for Aberdeen had said, that all
the Colonies should pay the expense of the force
maintained in them.. This proposition included more
considerations than the Honourable Member fir
peared to suppose. The system with our Colones
had been, that for the restrictions we imposed oa
their trade, and for the benefit we derived from the
restrictions, we were to pay for their defence. k
was easy to say they were a dead expense to the
country, but it would be difficult to put all the im
cidental advantages of them on paper, so as to le
satisfactory to the Honourable Member for Aber-
deen. In the correspondence with the Colonies*
this subject, the Colonies declared, that if an mai
mited trade was given them, they would ranging
for their own defence—(Hear,, from the Omelet).
The colonial policy of this country was not tole&
cussed incidentally, nor could it be settled in aunt
calculation of expense. The Hon. Member said,M
the new Colonies, which were governed by the
Crown, and which did not now pay the expense d
their garrisons, would do so, if they were admiled
to the privileges of the British Constitution. lk
(Mr. Goulhurn) wished the Honourable Memhorkd
given any instance of their willingness to providefor
"troops—( Hear, hear).—None of those Coloniesilii
were governed by Constitutions, provided fame
part of the garrisons, except Jamaica, while mod
the new Colonies did. The Hon. Member thee, ja
answer to the statement of a gallant General (Sir Wilson), that the Dutch Governor of the Cape,beee
it was taken, had defrayed the whole of the makers
as well-as civil expenses of the Colony, out des
revenue, observed, that this statement Mast be
founded in error. To spew this, he read an extras
of el letter from M. Schirnmelpenninck, head 416!
Batavian Republic, to General Jansen, Govereord
the Cape, in which there was the following ell&
sion :—" If any branch of active trade couldleie-
tro4uced, the Cape might defray its own expeok
cure." This letter was dated in June, 1805.
was not very long before it was captured, anal
a decisive proof, that at that time the Cape cm•
not support its establishments. Another gallaat_
neral (Sir R. Fergusson) had stated, that 6007
Grey had given his opinion, that 1.3,000 we.,L.LI
Omit salary for the Governor of the Car E
Ciaig, from Sir R. Ferguson". He (Urtiolumn
Could find no trace of General Craig havingexpoo,
any such opinion; General Grey had expressedae"
rectly contrary one.
Sir It. FERGUSON explained what he bad
that in 1795, when the Cape fell into our ban
General Craig, who acted as Governor, stand Dir._
Government, that he had found no salary bag;
him, but that he had-appropriated £3,000 Pe!
num, which he thought fully adequate to the ott
. Mr. GOULBURN observed, that even in &dog
General Craig's emoluments would have been grow
than those of the present Governor, as the old sfO:
of giving fees to the Governor continued fill Otos
rival of Lord Macartney. The Hem /Rob°
defended the Secretary for the Colonial dkps
from the charge of diverting the colonial 1".111r1
the purposes of patronage. IVhen the Nohleag—
(Earl Bathurst) first came into office, he
a Bill- to preclude himself from granting °ILI
lonial.appointrnents .to persons who did notEgei
in the lesp‘ctive Colonies; he had reclusid.

%
V
*Colonies. When the le. yd spoke of
Ohs, he ought to have sta that these
on several thy:aid ing it) co-
4iiitia. In Caltaillii w 4 a Joisat
, and in other fsads,o e lonies there was
Colonial forces. :'But thew forces were not
luded to by the Noble bsrd. As to the pub-
rks, it was said tsp., at present 6,018 more