Star.
London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

tee: visit to Nottingham, whoa he complained mei
;{the backwardness of the people; and conitaudy
lecke of the Bth or 9th of June as the time at which
i‘e rising was to take place. He stated half the ppeo--
Nef.• e ngland were ready to put down the unreel-
"
eg tyrants who oppressed them. He added, Major
;ate:right, and others, whose names it would not
een be proper to mention, were acquainted with the
hole of the proceedings ; and he mentioned the
„es of several Officers, whom he asserted to ep-
ee of what was going on. Oliver had, besides,
one Crabtree to Birmingham, to invite certain
.as there to attend a treasonable meeting, but
7 had declined, and declared they washed their
'ds of the whole business. He now begged to call
, attention of the House to one memorable fact—
, Testy, that from the day Oliver had been convicted
being a spy—from the day on which he ceased to
the tourist and the missionary of Government—
I disturbances had teasel. Some allowances, he
=tided, ought to be male for those who by each
• had been seduced from.their duty. It was very
II for those who had fortunes of their own, or who
-eived large sums of money for services, or for no
wires rendered to the country, to set forth the
ormity of his conduct who offended against its
ra ; but they did not know what it was to sec a
ife and children crying for bread, and to have none
. give them. Placed in such a situation, they knew
et what their own feelings would be. In such dis-
ss men would do things, which, under other cir-
arnstances, they would notthink of for a moment.'
drowning, men would catch at straws, so thole
ould adopt schemes little calculated to afford thee'
-Yd. Teat there were men disposed to take advan-
-5 of such a state of thing", could not be doubted,
the question for the House to consider was=
hether the combinations of such persons were so
eeive. as to afford grounds for rational alarm ?—._,
was only surprised that a more formidable rising
I not been produced by the missionaries Of Go-
eeeteat, who had been employed during the last,
..sr, at the habitation cf want and distress. ls'bw as'
:what was said of the use that the prisoners at
Irby might have made of Mr. Oliver, this excellent
an was certainly concealed in Derby, ready to earn
pe blood-meney which he expected to get out of!
lose wheni he had instigated to crime—(heoe, hear.)
It was doubtless there for that purpose, andefor no
Cher-leer, hear.) The prisoners could not call
m in their behalf; as it would be no defence for
`ern to say they had been seduced into teeasone--
'hey wished to prove that they had not committed
e crime laid to their charge. Could tile legal mas-
icre which formerly took plate in his neighbour
hod, at Derwentwater, have been prevented,, would
have been received as any excuse for the poor suf-
tes, that they had only pffended by following their
xi? He would tell why the course taken with
trials at Derby had been preferred. If Bacon
first beer. pet upon his trial, Oliver would have
important witness. The Noble Lord oppo-
knew this. He knew that Oliver was much con•
with what had been done by Bacon; and for
reason the Master traitor was not first tried.—
facts which he had stated• he was prepared to
a, on the oath of witnesses—not like the
:ney General's witnesses, Castles anchOliver—hut
ens of crehibility—(Loud cries of hear! hear !)
ttlemen opposite (said Mr. Bennet) may; by a ma-
defeat this or any other motion, This sy
Lere, but it will not do Its the country. The
steed before the country on their trials-s-and the
etre will return that verdict which their conduct
For my own part, I hope the House will
instruct the Committee to do that, which, from
speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
met), it is clear they arc ,;determined not to do.
rwl cheering.)
t.WILBERFORCItobjected to the motion.; and
The as a Member of the Committee, he 44 a
t to sly, that he ought not to be embeiniNed by
reference which it proposed. He thought the
se ought to•negitive the motion, because it•tt-as
' on a false assumption, as it supposed that: no
nce had occurred till Oliver went into the
The Committee, however had declared it
we been proved, on satisfactory evidence, that a
menus rising was contemplated before Oliver
heoskat,timugh it ras not denied that the agents
e to detect the conspirators might have added
ig to the malignity of the design. This being
, it must be seen the motion went altogether on
hypothesis. He knew not how to form a deei-
ainion on the character of Oliver till he obtained
information respecting him. He certainly ap-
e a very different light, from what appeared
Committee, than he did now, after the state-
made by the Hon. Gentleman. If any man hid
the part which he (Oliver) was said to have
he not only thought a most material service
I be rendered to the public by bringing him to
e and he should be most anxious for his punish-
'Meer !)—He thought it would be desirable
. from employing such persons as spies alio.
; but, if it was admitted that they ought to be
,yed, he did not think all the indignation now
' ought to be poured on the head of an indh
who had only offended by going a little fur-
his efforts to deceivethose whom he was sent
tot, than he ought to have done. In the main,
e he thought more harm than good resulted
eroploving spies. Our Constitution needed not
supporters. It stood not on so sandy and base
sdation as to require their services, but, este-
-1 on liberty and law, could well sustain itself
es.) disraceful an association. He should op-
-sent motion, as he did not see that the en-
i for would afford any practical benefit.
iIIITOR-GENERAL said, the present
lligh grounded solely on a passage in the
he Secret Committee, was not justified by
t, as it was there stated that it was proved
_aesfactory evidence that a treasonable
.
eea been formed before Mr. Oliver went
:atty. There was, therefore, no degree
ze charged is that Report on the Agents
:e::: that could be made the subject of a
0n the topics which had been intro-
'ace the House to agree to the motion,
considered the information of the
...n to be drawn from suspicious and
'rtes. He named early in his speech
1. who quad heen lately discharged from
L fe.tesasonalee practices. This person,
• ze, ;havens, who were now en AMC-

11C

rice,- he suspectei of having furnished Much or the
information in question.—!-(Mr. BENNET &mid the
correctness of this conjectare amidst loud cheering.)—
He would ask, from the cheering which had follow-
ed his assertion that the-information derived from
sources like those to which he had alluded was pol-
luted and suspicious, if it could be supposed that the
respectability of individuals could be increased by
their having been charged with treasonable piactices?
This, he was sure, would not be maintained in that
House, but such seemed to be the impression made
elsewhere, and those who were so distinguished were
accordingly pointed out, not only as objects of public
commiseration, but of public bounty--(hear). The
cry was now up against Oliver. It was quite safe for
those of whom he had spoken to lay every thing to
him, and represent themselves, poor souls I to have
been all along perfectly innocent—(hear, hear, hear).
He denied that Castles had been the witness of the
Attorney-General, as he had unfairly been called.—
He had been the witness of the Crown and the coun-
try, and had only been introduced by the Attorney-
General as a person whose evidence could not be re-
ceived, unless it could be confirmed by the testimony
of other witnesses. Castles had been no spy. He
had been taken up with the other traitors, and it was
not till long after the transaction of which he gave
evidence had occurred, that he had any communi-
cation Stith the Government. It had been said, that
Oliver, at the time of the late trials, had been taken
down to Derby, to earn blood-money. It was im-
possible for him to have been taken down for any
such purpose. He could not have been called for on
any of the trials, as it would be seen his name had
not been included in the list of witnesses previously
furnished to the prisoners--(hear, hear, hear.).—Had
Oliver been called, the Law Officers of the Crown
would have been reproached for bringing him for-
ward as they had been for producing Castles in Lon-
don, but as they had not included •him in the list of
witnesses, they were now asked why he had not been
brought forward ? He noticed the mild terms in which
the Honourable Gentleman had spoken of the crimes
for which the traitors at Derby suffered. He admitted
them to have been convicted of illegal actions. It
was thus he spoke of the conduct of men who in the
prosecution of treason had committed murder.—
The charge preferred against the Attorney-General
was wholly unfounded. He could not have brought
forward Oliver if he would at the trials, and he had
never thought of doing so, as Oliver knew nothing
of the transactions he wished to prove. But it was
said the prisoners could not call him, as it would
have been no defence for them to shew that they had
been seduced into the. commission of High Treason.
Be it so ; but this is no reason why they should ab-
stain from stating the fact, if such were the truth,
when they were brought up to receive sentence. It
had only been stated that Oliver had seen Brandreth
once; that was on the 233 of May. But would it
be maintained that the conspiracy had originated in
that interview, when it was known that the prepara-
tions of the traitors had been in progress fur weeks
and weeks before. It was not true that the course of
the trials had been regulated by the consideration,
that if Bacon had been put to the bar first, Oliver
bust have been called as a principal vdtne.s.. As
Oliver was not in the list of witnesses, he could not
have been brought forward on that trial more than on
any of the others. Brandreth, as leader of the con-
fpir:atorsrwas taken first, as the persouagainst whom;
in common justice, they were bound to proceed in the
first instance.

Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY declared he should give
his vote for the present motion, though he could have
wished the enquiry confided to another Committee.
In such a case he would ask if the House " dared"'
to refuse an enquiry altogether ? It was understood
that the House had not long to live, and would it dare
to meet the impression such conduct would make on
their constituents ? He had never heard a more un-
fair charge than that made by his Learned Friend
(Me.
Solicitor General) against his Honourable Friend
(Me. Bernet) when he stated his information to have
been derived from a polluted source. Mitchell the
Learned Gentleman had spoken of as one who was
not entitled to. credit. \Thy ? Because he was one of
the unfortunate persons who had been confined un-
der the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. He
wished it to be seen what strides Ministers were dis-
posed to take. Because they fastened on an indivi-
dual and confined him, his character was to be blas-
ted for ever, and his evidence was not to be received
against Ministers ! The other -persons his Learned
Friend had mentioned, were, he believed, out of
the country before the transactions in question took
place, and, consequently, the llonourable Gentleman
could not have derived his information from them.
The Solicitor-General, under all the circumstances,
had no right to suppose the information of his Ho-
nourable Friend had been derived from polluted
sources. It had never been imputed to Oliver that
he originated the disaffection which had existed, but
that. this having been previously inspired, he had
worked it up into those mischievous actions in which
it at last broke out. It seemed that he had had in-
tercourse with Brandreth before the Bth of June, yet
this, though repeatedly called upon, the Law Officers
had refused to prove. But it was said the prisoners
might have stated what the conduct of Oliver had
been when they were called up to receive sentence.
'Did his Honourable and Learned Friend think their
doing so would have inclined the Court to mercy ?
'lf he did, his opinion was very different from what
he (Sir S. Romilly) entertained. But what had been
the language of the sufferers at the place of execu-
tion? It had been stated that then they had accused
Oliver. If when they did this in their last moments,
knowing they were about immediately to appear be-
fore their MAKER ; if they were not to be believed
then, neither could he persuade himself that they
would have been believed on being brought up to re-
ceive sentence. His Learned Friend had represented
his Honourable Friend, in speaking of these men, to
have mitigated their crime by the manner in which
he spoke of it as if they had only been guilty
of a misdemeanor, or some trifling offence.—
Who could have heard him speak of their illegal
actions, without understanding him to mean,' that
1 whether they were guilty of High Treason or not,
their lives were justly forfeited to the laws of their
country ? After describing the Honourable Gentle-
man to have obtained information from a polluted
source, be then seemed to say, " and now, by the
manner in which their crime is spoken f, I will
shcw you that the man who brings forward this

gorrnatioa, is one who, in a manner, makes common
'cause with them."—(CHes of no, no.) The expres-
sion he had used Was too strong. but perhaps his
Learned Friend would have the goodness to explain
what he had said. If the present motion were ne-
gatived, as he agreed with an Honourable Gentleman
near him (Mr. Wilberforce) that spies ought not to be
employed by a Government, he hoped that Honour-
able Gentleman wouid move for another Committee
to inquire into the late proceedings, and that he was
of opinion would be the most effectual step that could
be taken towards terminating the system which he
wished to put down.
Sir S. ROMILLY having asked across the table if
the Solicitor-General would explain ?
Mr. CANNING said, that if he could concede to
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the right of
calling for explanation from his Honourable and
Learned Friend—explanation too so extraordinarily
called for in a colloquial manner, and across the
table, he should have waited till his Honourable and
Learned Friend had explained. But there were two
reasons why an explanation should not he given;
first, where-the expressions used were so clear as to
require none; secondly, where the misrepresentation
was so gross (not wilfully no doubt) as to render ex-
planation as superfluous as in the first case. The
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, either distrust-
ing his facts, or distrusting his attempted but un-
achieved triumph over his Honourable and Learned
Friend (the Solicitor-General), resorted, by way of a
vies in bar, to ask the House whether it would dare,
an the face of the country, to negative the motion?
Wlth- tint Honourable and Learned Gentleman's
leave, the time was not yet come for such an appeal;
we were not yet arrived at that millenium;-the House
was not under the intimidating voice of Robespierre
and him tribunes—(Load laughing from the Opposition
Benches.) The Honourable Genttemea on the other
side might endeavour to drown that topic with a smile.
Bat he would repeat that the time was-not yet come
when the House of Commons could be intimidated
—(hear, hear, from Me Opposition benches.)—The
Gentlemen opposite could no more put down his
statenienr or his sentiments by organized shouts, than
they could put down, by the same means, the grow-
ing talent of his Honourable and Learned Friend.
But this was surplusage. He should come to- the
question.. The situation of the Honourable Mover
was extraordinary, and indeed pitiable. If the Mo-
tion was his own never WAS any thing more absurd—
if mule by concert, never was a poor mover more
deserted by those who followed him: The motion
expressly rested en the Second Report of the Secret
Committee. Whit then had it to do with Castles ?
for Castles not Oliver is the object of the Honourable
Mover. The shouts of triumph for the acquittal of '
Thistlewood echoed under the windows whilst that
Committee was sitting ;" Castles' ministry had there-
fore concluded before that report. Again, what was
the abject of the motion—to prosecute a. -King's evi-
dence—(Hear).—Who ever heard of sucli a 'thing,
or what had it to do with the hallowed, and sane-
tioned, and fenced in tribes of treason, more than with
murder, or any other vulgar crime. Was the object 1
to prosecute Oliver, or Oliver and Co. ?—(4 laugh)—
k was quite impossible to rivet the attention of Ho-
nourable Gentlemen to. the question ; but he again
should revert to the motion. It asked what had
been done by Government in a particular caw!? He

- ,•
be matter_of charge of impeachment ; but still the
motion was useless, for the act was admitted hatetis
colfitentem rcum. There was again the absurdity of
referring this question of such importance—such mag-
nitude—such influence, upon latest posterity ! to a
tribunal which they had decried—degraded—stig-
matised as a Committee set up by and full of Mini-
sters for their own purposes. What, give to a Com-
mittee appointed to delude the people, farther means
of delusion ! Give the task of elucidation to the pro-
fessors of obscurity ; that of examination to the sti-
flers of inquiry, commit to an incompetent and par-
tial and scorned Committee this question so interesting
to morality, society, community, unity ! (Laughter.)
•He acknowledged the talents of the Honourable Gen-
tleman who moved this question, but he considered
him put forward, like the paw of an humble do-
mestic animal, to feel the disposition of ;he House.
He 'was employed, like the sharp end of the wedge,
to let in the grosser statement. Saying this, he re-
peated his regret that ingenuous youth should be so
employed. Ministers were charged with employing
spies. How then were they to inform themselves of
the state of the country, but by obtaining informa-
tion from respectable and doubtful sources, and cam-
paring them with each other. He should read to
the House an extract from a letter to the Secretary
of State, received in December, 1816 :—" I cannot
conclude this hasty report without calling your Lord-
ships particular attention to the circumstance, that
these disorders do not proceed from distress or want
of employment, or from the scarcity or dearness of
provisions ; but they are the offspring of a revolu-
tionary spirit, consequent and connected with the
meeting in Spa-fields ; and that nothing short cf
eh3eiLe is the Constitution is in contemplation of
the leaders and agitators."—(Hear, hear, hear.)-
-Now he would ask, tf such reports were. received
from a Justice of Peace in a remote and tranquil
county, from an obscure Magistrate reposing under
the shade of his own vines, if vines could exist there,
and not from the Lord Lieutenant of a County,
whom Lingo calls, not only a Justice, but a Master
of Justices—from the Lord Lieutenant of the West
Riding of Yorkshire—(loud cheering)—what Minister
would be justified in disregarding it, merely because
the existence of a conspiracy might afterwards be
denied? He knew that it would be said, that Earl
Fitzwilham `(the Lord Lieutenant of the West Riding
lof Yorkshire) had since retracted his opinion ; hut at
the time when it was first delivered, it was information
on which the Government must have taken immediate
measures. They were taken, and had received the ap-
probation of the House—to be sure it was that of a
majority, and it might have been wiser originally to
have settled that a minority should carry the point !
lie would defy all the historical and legal research
on the other side, to point out a single instance of a
conspiracy in any country, despotic or free, in which
some persons or some party did not deny the exist-
ence of a conspiracy after it had been crushed—he
meant an internal plot by obscure persons, who, from
inability to discharge the thundefoolt against the fa-
bric of the State, endeavoured to destroy by under-
musing it. Spies he condemned as an evil—but until ,

there could be found a nett without *ire, children,'
or social connection, with affluence and above interest,
a man of unsullied virtue, and restless investigaticn—
without a spot, but most anxious to discover the
spots of others—until this faultiessenonster, this phc•
nomenon beyond the notions of perfectibility of thepbi-
losophers of the I Sth century could be found, there
was ho ahernatise, but employing such spies as they
could meet, or letting the State go to wreck. The
Honourable and Learned Gentleman would employ
no spy whose moral character was not pure—What I
a man with six children and two wives, of whom one
had run away—a bigamist, capable of getting inkr.
mation as a pretended accomplice. The Honourable
Gentleman thought a man a bad witness if he had
ever been in• drink or in love ; but why so severe
upon the King's evidence ? 'Twas the double treason
1 1 that blackened him. The simple traitor was treated
with mildness. It was the half-damned traitor, like
one of these spirits in a tragedy of Dryden; which is
made to say, .
" 1.141 f damned ar.d shocking to the ground I fell." With respect to Oliver, the motion imputed 110 crime
to him for which he was amenable to the laws, but
the performance of that odious and disgusting duet
which he had undertaken for the safety ct the country.
It was certainly impossible that, not his words and
representations alone, but his very existence amongst
the disaffected, should not have operated at encou.
ragement—(bear, hear, hear.) Ihe accession of a
single new face was an accession of strength, and .
therefore tended to encourage. Neither could it be
expected that a man who ventured amongst conspi-
retors in disguise, should not be obliged to tell them
Iles to support his character. If the Mihisters hal
their option to detect conspiracies by unexeePtiouable
means, or by the employment of betrayers, they
would not hesitate to prefer the first. But the ques-
tion was, whether they would employ the only
means which offered themselves? He repeated the
statement of an Hon. Friend of his, that not one human
being had been deprived of his liberty for an hour
on the testimony of Oliver.-They hid been taken up
•on testimony totally Unconnected with him, aed to
which he had served only as an index, and in few cases.
—As to the trials at Derby, they did not prove that
extraordinary measures had been necessary ; but they
proved that the general statement on which tose men.
sures were founded, was correct. On the whole, he
thought that the House could have no hesitation ie
disposing of the motion of the Host. Gentleman. If
his object was the condemnation ofliuisters, he had •
a shorter me.hcid, as it had been avowed that none
of the measure's asked for had been adopted. Let hint
make that his ground of impeachment. If he only
wished to punish:Oliver, the answer would be, that
the authority to which his motion referred, the Re-
port of the Secret Contraittee,•assigued so crime what-
ever to that individual. The language cf that Le-
port imputed an abet, and net an intention, to the
conduct of certain persons, arid it was necessary to
prove an intention before an individual could be con-
sidered liable to be tried. He thought, therefore, that
there was no occasion to push the House to a envision
on the motion on the-table, which, if carried, woold
confer on its movers and supporters, a task in:pot-sit:le
to execut Hear, hear.) . -..- .
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY, in explanation,. stated
that he felt it due to himself to correct what, he
I deemed a . gross inisrepresentaticm. He did Oes .
ae the /tight- tYtltteatralsft teentlemaiiria-stated, that
the House did not dare to do a certain thing. The
Right Honourable Gentleman had, he presumed,
misunderstood him, although he was sure that no.
other person could have done so. All 'be ventured to
say was, that the Members of that Hcusc would not
dare to face their constituents if they acted .hi tl:e
manner which he deprecated - hut in. this he did •
not mean to allude to the Right Honourable Gentle-.
man's confidence to meet his electors at Liverpool.
The Learned Gentleman concluded with obscrieug,•
that the Right Honourable Gentleman did not appear
to be aware of the difference between spies and in-
formers; because:although it might be right to at-.
tend to the latter, it might be utterly, unjustifiable to
employ the forther.
- Mr. TIERNEY observed, that among the adstn- .
tages which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can-
ning) had-over him was this, tlrat he had had full
two hours start of him. Of this, however, he would
not complain, nor of the length of his speech, al-
though
three quarters of it consisted of eprams,
spangles, and embroidery —( Hear, hear, and a laugh. -
He would pass over the Right Hon. Gentle/nazis al-
lusion to the Millenium, to Robespierre, and the-or-
ganized shouts, but he could not overlook the Right
Hon. Gentleman's angry remark upon the words that
the House dare not do so and so, without adverting
to the language of the Right Hon. Gentleman'ethreat
upon a former occasion, that if the House would act
in the manner which he then deprecated, an appeal
would be made to the people: he meant in 1807, when
the Right Hon. Gentleman menaced the House with
dissolution if it opposed his opinion, and when his
words were ordered to be taken down. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had said that he would chase away
the Motion before' the House, which he 'thought
proper to characterize as quite prepOsterous; but if
the Right Honourable Gentleman had not succeeded
in his effort, he would call upon the Clerk to read it,
Now what was the Motion? Why simply this, to
prefer a reference to the Secret Committee, which
would ascertain whether that Comthittee was good
for any thing.- This, indeed, he and his friends were
...
willing to try, and it *as strange that the Right
Hon. Gentleman should object to the experimeet,
The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked, what would
Gentlemen have but the fact that no prod bad taken place? He would, however, answer, asat it
was his wish to have that fact formally avowed as
a ground for fartherproceedings—(Hear, Aeon)._
But it seems, according to the Right Hoe. Gentle-
man, that nothing had been dene by Government
against . the fomenters of disturbance alluded to in .
the Report of the Committee, because, is he said,
nothing could be done. But it appeared extraordi-
nary to his mind, that it would Ise impossible to
maintain an indictment against a man, who, being
employed for a good purpose, -had, on the contrary,
directed his exertions to a bad purpose. But he now
°understood
he why P
it7lgats
thatwerettaersokenesagareticerste
ulpoivnethisfeomr ploayPerswas such as they could not ccn-
veniently withstand. Oliver was not, however, he
supposed, the only person alludedto hi-the Report
of the Secret Committee of the last Sessicn, cr silk h

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