Star.
London, England, 1811-05-10 00:00:00

•

,fA

r.elR r PROCEEDING&

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 9.
'The Lose Coatretttost being detained •at Council at Carl-
ton Hoope,.did not come down till nearly five o'clock. Prayers
were then' read, and the business of :he day immediately en-
tered. upon. The space below the bar was crowded to tacest
fay the slumbers attracted by the important subject which stood
fir discussion.
The Slave Trade Pelson?. and Irish Loan Bllhe s werr rea
wd are thir
for-
d
thee, and passed. the other Bills uponi
! table e
warded. Several private Bills were brought up irons the Com-
mits by Sirs I. Graham, Thomas hlassterman, and other Mem-
birs,ond sevesally road a first time.
The Customs Offices Regulation BlUwas brotight up from the
Cossansoas by Sir I. Graham and read a first time.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE took the opportunity of the full
VsMdance, to require some explanation from Ministers re-
goertrtt a point which he deemed of considerable importance.
After aAvertlng to certain pros edings of the Boards of Trea-
Way, of 1 rade, and of Excise, he said he understood that
th that
many
epstillerswere actually yet distilling from sugar, on the fai
eu applieadon would be made to Parliament in their favour, with
respect to the ridges. He therefore wished to be informed, if
Ministers had ;own notice to those persons, that the application
to PArlisnwpt in their favour had not been successful, and that
the low of the land, with respect to distillation, most be enforced.
Re felt this was as extraordinar y veetion, but these were extra-
ordinary times ; and with reference to the circumstance, he trusted
ft would not be deemed an improper one.
Earl BATHURST, in a low tone of voice, replied to what
bad fallen from the Noble Earl We could only distinctly hear,
that it was proposed to bring In *Bill of Indemnity.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE, in reply, observed, that this
was the first case of the kind that he remembered; and added,
that It aEill of Indemnity were brought kr, as mentioned by the
Noble Earl, he should oppose it in every stage in thaz House.
Earl BA UHURS I' rose to explain. The revenue, he ob-
served, was duly taken care of. Those Distillers had entered
Into a bond for the payment of the higher duties, if called upon
tido so. The ease was far from being a novel one, it occurred
many other instances.
The Bilis upon the Table were then respectively forwarded.
PROTESTANT DISSENTING MINISTERS.
The, Order of the Day, upon which their Lord-
ships were summoned, being read,
Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH rose, pursuant to
the notice he had given, for the purpose of introdu-
cing a Bill, the principal object of which was to pre-
vent the abuses of the Acts of William and Mary,
and of his present Majesty, and to extend and render
!Imre effectual those ,Acts as far as relates to Protes-
tant Dissenting Ministers. —He would not, he
said, unnecessarily take up their Lordships' time,
by a reference to any preliminary considerations.
With respect to his motives in thus coming forward,
fe trusted a liberal and just determination would be
ormed by the House, and the Country. And he
also trusted, that from what he should submit to
their Lordships, they would be enabled to decide
whether or not the interposition of Parliament was
necessary to give effect to the acts in question. The
subject before them was one, he thought, which should
be an object of anxious solicitude to every individual
91 whatever sect or persuasion he may be, in the
country. He meant the correction of the abuses of
those important Acts. The dignity, the honour, and
the sanctity of the national religion were involved in
the consideration. After adverting to the effects of
the Reformation to the ecclesiastical policy of the
country, his Lordship referred to the principles and
policy of the Acts of Toleration, which were chiefly
established at the era of the Revolution. He dwelt,
principally upon the operation of those Acts as appli-
cable to Protestant dissenting Ministers ,• and de-
scribed their provisions with respect to those indivi-
duals who applied to the Magistracy for licences to
Set as religious teachers, or ministers in their respec-
tive congregations. These provisions, however, he
stated, had received a novel interpretation, within
the last thirty or forty:yeah. It was well known to
the igagistratei, and to those who were conversant
in the business of the Quarter Sessions of the Peace,
that the general understanding and practice was, that
ittiy person whatever, let his moral or intellectual
onalifications be what they may, let his ignorance or
lit immorality be what it might, whether he de,,cend-
ed from a chimney or a pillory, was at liberty to re-
vile tb the Quarter Sessions, and there to take the
oaths, skrtd make the declarations required by the
Statuteiovhen he was at liberty. to demand a certifi-
-Cate of his having so qualified himself, and then to
to and preach ally doctrine he pleased, provided the
Jame was not against the law I. Religion," said
the immortal Bacon, " is the main stay of a well or-
dered commonwealth." Nothing could be of more •
deep importance than that religions instruction should
':not be contaminated at its source, and that its teachers
should not be mess of tainted or immoral principles.
These facilities were an inducement to crafty and de-
signieg individuals to impose upon the ignorant and
unwary. For the correctness of his statenient, he
would appeal to every officiating Magistrate at the
Quarter Sessions. Neither was there any attestation
• ,offered as to the moral or intellectual competency of
those applicants—they demanded their certificates
upon their taking the oaths, &c. and these were given
.by. the Justices under the idea that they had no power
to refuse them. It was not to the characters of those
;nd iv i duals, as general members of society, that he
:objected ; still less to their tenets, or modes of faith.
• It was the self-appointment he thought dangerous,
and their taking upon themselves, merely upon their
own motives, to act as religious instructors, that he
thought objectionable. This, he held, was admitted,
under a false interpretation of the Acts of Toleration.
1 The spirit of those did not go to authorise incompetent
persons to assume the sacred functions of ministers of
religion. But under the Acts as now interpreted, all
description of persons—cobblers, stone-masons, chim-
ney-sweeps, excommunicated clergymen, and such
persons, .vere held as admissible. Again, he meant
no reflection on the occupations of these persons, but
they afforded strong presumptive evidence of their
unfitness to perform the sacred functions. No man
could possibly higher respect all or any of their
Lordships than himself, yet there were many among
• them whom he ihould not like to see commanding'
armies, in the place of Lord Wellington or Gene; al;
Graham, or leading
.on fleets to battle in the stead
of Lord Gambier, 4'ir J. Saut=rez, or Sir Edward
Pellew. But the practices which he complained ,
of were not consonant to the true spirit and mean-
;
ing of the Acts in question ; and he felt confident,
if such were stated from authcrity, their'Lordships
would not hesitate to interpose, in order• to prevent
the continuance of so eaormous an evil. Notwith-
standing such was the prevalent interpretation of
the Acts, there were parts of the kingdom where
different opinions were held respecting the title in-
tent and meaning of them ; and, he iaelieved, that
such a sentiment was held by some beitoog their

Lor4ships. The Noble Viscount then reamed to
the provisions of the Act of William and Mary, in
illustration of the position he had laid down ; and
also the Act of the 19th of his Majesty. , These were
held to apply to the cases of Dissenting Ministers
only, not to all persons indiscriminately, who chose
to take those functions upon themselves ; and there
were instances of such persons being refused because
they could not shew that they were teachers of con-
gregations ; but in the great generality of cases it was
otherwise ; and they were called upon to avert the 1
evils resulting from the uncertain state of laws of so
much importance. It was incumbent on the Legis.
latore to declare the real intent and meaning of those
Acts, and to point out particularly the species of evi-
dence to be required from the applicants for licences,
as to their competency. With respect to the question
of the best manner of providing for this, his Lordship
observed upon the practice observed in the Establish.
ed Church on such occasions ; these the candidate
for the sacred function was required to bring testi-
monials respecting his character, and an appeal was
made to the parishioners as to his fitness for ordina-
tion. All candidates, at least, ought to have a pre-
sumptive evidence of their fitness. What he proposed
was, that in all such cases this should appear : that
some evidence of their moral and intellectual fitness
shouldberequired ; that a certificate should be brought
signed by at least six house-keepers, who had known
the applicant, and knew him to be a person of a so-
ber life, and considered as endowed with sufficient
abilities for the purpose. Those which were specially
detailed in the Bill could not be doomed in the
least as severely restrictive ; for that individual who
could not, without difficulty, procure such testimo-
nials, must be altogether unworthy of what he as-
pired to. The Noble Viscount then adverted to the
various exemptions enjoyed by Dissenting Ministers
of various persuasions, and particularly of the sect
called Quakers ; and proceeded to consider some of
those causes which were held as contributory to the
great increase, of late years, of dissenters from the
Established Church. He adverted particularly to the
want of a sufficient number of places of worship for
the established religion, and instanced the contrast
between the measures adopted in that respect, in the
reign of Queen Ann, when the erection of fifty new
churches was resolved upon in the then comparatively
small size of the metropolis. They should recollect,
that the Established Church was an integral, a vital
part of the Constitution, and such a principle should
govern their conduct with respect to it. He had in.
formation from quarters the most respectable in vari
ous parts of the country, stating the insufficiency of
places of worship, and complaining of the conse-
quences. Among others, he had information from
a most worthy Diocesan. With resect to the present
number of churches in the metropolis, if its increased
size since the reign of Anne was considered, one hun-
dred additional churches would scarcely be sufficient.
A topic so essential to the morals, the well being, the
security of the people, could never be too much ap-
preciated by the Legislature. Reverting to the im.
mediate object of the Bill, his Lordship expressed his
confidence that even every well disposed and consci-
entious Dissenter would approve ot a measure which
went to secure the purity of religious instruction, and
declare the real meaning and intent of the Legisla-
ture in the enactment ot one of the most important
of its laws. What he proposed now was, that the'
Bill he had the honour to present should be read a
first time, then.printed, and it would be for their
Lordships LP name a day for the second reading.—
He then moved, ~ That this Bill be now read a first

time."
On the question being put, Lord HOLLAND
said, :hat even what had fallen from his Noble Friend
invessed more strongly on his mind, that no neces-
sity existei for the desired interference. The whole
seemed to go upon a ituadamental error, that it was
only by the permission of Government that indivi-
duals were to instruct others in their religious duties.
He, on the contrary, held it to be the right of every
man who thinks he can instruct his fellow-creatures, so
to instruct them. He was sorry thaisoinething 'Rifled
from his Noble Friend, as if he held it improper diat
persons of low origin, or particular trades, should
attempt to teach the doctrines of Christianity. On
this point he held a different opinion. For the mea-
sure itself, be did not think a sufficient case Was wade
out, as the existence of any real practical evils or in-
conveniencies, to require such an interposition on the
part of the Legislature. His Lordship then referred,
to some calculations as to the increase of dissenting
teachers of late years, which he did not seem to re-
gard as a misfortune, or an alarming consideration.
With respect to what was said of the Established'
Church, he agreed in the opinion, that a want of suf-
ficient number of places of religious worship was in-
jurious.
This was a point in which the Established
Religion was essentially concerned ; it should take
care that no insufficiency in this respect should
exist. He had no objection that the public purse
'Should, to a certain extent, contribute to the expences
of the necessary erections ; but he thought the im-
mediate funds of the Church also should contribute.
Such was the uniform custom with the Church of
Rome, and the Established Church in this country
should :hew itself no less mindful of its duty in so
essential a point. With respect to his Noble Friend's
Bill, he repeated his opinion, there was not a sufficient
ground laid for its adoption.
Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH spoke in explana-
tion, and enforced the leading arguments in his intro-
'Auctory speech ; contending, that ample grounds ex-
isted, and even rendered necessary the interference of
the Legislature. He agreed with his Noble Friend,
in lamenting the insufficiency of places of public won.
'ship for the established religion, and wished to. see is
regulation, that no Bill for building a new Church
should be entertained, except it contained a provision
for securing a certain portion of the area for the poorer
classes of the parishioners, without any charge to these
whatever.
Earl STANHOPE acquiesced in every thing that
had fallen from his, Noble Friend (Lord Holland).-
IThat Noble Ltird, on whatever question he spoke,
whether right or wrong, wise or unwise, always spoke
from principle. But on the present occasion, he did
not think that his Noble Friend or the Noble Viscount,
had gone far enough. They did not, or would not,
touch the real state of the question. They must
know, or if they did not know, he would tell them,
that in most parts of England, where the parishes did
not consist of more than a thousand souls, the places
of worship, exclusive of private houses, barns, &c.