Star.
London, England, 1821-04-04 00:00:00

REPEAL OP TH MALT DUTY.

The Order of the Day for the second reading of'
the Malt Duty Repeal 13i11 was then read.
Mr. WESTERN said, the Bill having been for
some time in the hands of Members, as weli as the
statements connected with it, he should not now con-
sider it necessary to detain the House by a long state-
ment, but content himself with moving, that the Bill
be now read a second time.

Sir J. SHELLEY argued stronglythe necessitythere
was that the Agricultural Interest should be relieved,
which would be done by the repeal of this tax. Much
had been said of the embarrassment which the re-
peal of this tax would occasion to the Ministers and
the finances, but the repeal would only take away
£1,400,000, and it is understood that Ministers
wanted to appropriate £2,000,000 to the Sinking
Fund. Let the Sinking Fund go without it ; the
House had long enough been humbugged abotax the
.Sinking Fund, and so had the Country. He under-
stood, tf Ministers lost this fax, they intended to re-
sign---(A laugh). Now, he had no wish that they
should resign their places, be only wanted_them to
give up souse Of the taxes--(Laeghter)—and he hoped

the third Bench, which, on a former night, had taught
diem so good a lesson, would repeat it to-nights
Mr. WARD said, there had been three reasons as-
signed why this tax might be given up—first, that it
WAS superfluous, and might be done without ; next,
that if the tax was taken away, retrenchment might
be made to meet its loss; and thirdly, that if the
money could be done without, a tax less burthensome
might be found. Now, as to its being done without,
an Honourable Member had recommended the aban-
donment of the Sinking Fund, which he described
as a fallacy. Opinions might be erroneous. Opinions
once existed that the Sun went round the Earth,
whilst the Earth stood still ; but that was now given
Hn.
oot
agree
eaes t
oa
abandon e rr oneo
theus
Sinking opinion.
Fund,s' because, h
pourable Gentleman considered it as a fallacy. The
ecn
th'ae
House, not a fortnight ago, after a long and close
investigation, voted the Army as necessary; and tow,
what were they asked to do? Why, to take away
the means of supporting that Army. It was only
by keeping arms in out hands, that we could guard
against the renewal of hostilities. He hoped that
those who wished to support the Government would
reconsider the subject.
Mr. GRENFELL contended, that a Sinking Fund
ought to be kept up, as well to liquidate the National
Debt as to assure public credit—(Hear, hear).—The
excess of income over the expenses of the year formed
a real Sinking Fund. He
-had voted in 1819 for the
£3000,000 new taxes, and he would now vote for
the repeal of this Malt Duty. Ile thought that the
Ministry would be brought to retrench quite as soon
if this tax was continued, as if it was nithheld.—
When a man wished to pay ofr his debts he did not
begin by lowering his rents. He deprecated the idea
of breaking faith with the public creditor, which he
bad heard suggested in this House more than once
—(Hear, hear).—The stockholder had the same right
to his property as the landholder, and would be as
justified in invading the property of the landholder
.as the landholder was in attacking his—(Hear, hear).
If any taxes were to be taken off, he doubted much
whether the Malt Tax ought to he the first. He
thought the House ought to begin with the tax upon
salt, which was more generally oppres-ive—( /ear).
—ln conclusion, he said that the promoters of this
measure would be much disappointed if they calcu-
lated upon its giving substantial relief to the agri-
culturist—(Hear).
Mr. LOCKHART denied that any Gentleman on
that side of the House recommended a breach of
faith with the public creditor. What was said was'
this—that it was unjust one class of men should have
nll the property of the kingdom in their hands unin-
cumbered, whilst the rest were like the adscripti gleLi
—mere serfs, to bear alone all the burthens—(Hear).
—lf establishments were necessary to be kept up,
they might be kept at a less expense. People did not
look to saving so much in the reduction of the esta-
blishments, as in the expense attending the support
of these establishments—(Hear).—lt was said that
the agriculturists had had their day, and that they
had been the authors and supporters of the war."—
He (Mr. Lockhart) repudiated these charges : the pre-
sent race of agriculturists were the successors of those
who were in existence at the commencement of the
late war. He felt that, in thus addressing himself
to the House, he was speaking on behalf of helpless
millions, who must be reduced to the depths of misery
unless saved by the wisdom of Parliament—(Hear).
—lf something were not done, the time was not far
distant when the poor would be nnableeither to pro-
, cure employment from the yeomanry or relief from
the magistrate. Under these circuinstancel, it was
surely unfair and irrelevant to advert to the political
conduct or opinions held by this or that class, with
reference to a question so long since passed away.
Mr. J. SMITH had examined the subject with
much care, and had come to a different conclusion
from the last speaker. He could not conceive that
the repeal of this comparatively small duty would
materially relieve the farmer. The effect could only
be local, and not general. He was informed that a
reduction of Bs. on a quarter of Malt would not
affect the price of porter or ale a penny a pot, and
the profit would go into the pockets of the brewers.
The only solid relief to the agriculturist would be an
improvement of the Poor Laws. Much good had
been done in several parishes by employing the poor
on lands, and refusing any relief to idleness, as that
method induced them to procure employment for
themselves. Ministers alone were not to blame for
inattention to economy. One million had been em-
ployed on the Penitentiary ; another on the Caledo-
nian Canal ; and £1,200,000 was about to be ex-
pended on improvements at Sheerness and its vici-
nity. This was the country that afforded to the
world examples of all that was great or good 1—
(Hear, hear).—He could not participate in the fears
felt on the subject of the National Debt ; and that it
was impossible to keep faith with the public creditor.
Whether the funding system was right-or wrong, we
had only followed the example of the rest of Europe.
Much alarm had been entertained on account of the
language that had been held in that House; and lie
knew of a foreigner, of great fortune, who had writ-
ten to his agent to learn if it was true that England
meant to break faith with the public creditor.—
The number of Stockholders was from 800,000 to
900,000; and a number of Corporate Bodies had the
whole of their property in the Funds. During the
time of the war, while this country was so heavily
taxed, we had sacredly abstained from taxing the
property of foreigners, than which nothing had more
highly exalted the national character in Europe. As
to the Sinking Fund, he knew not where it was to be
found, as he learned there was a large sum due to
the East India Company on account of Bonaparte--
(Hear). He must oppose the second reading of the Bill.
Sir J. BOUGHEY could not support the measure,
unless he was assured that it was to be a measure of
economy, and no other tax to be substituted.
Mr. CURWEI!I had no wish to break faith with
the public creditor as long as it could be maintained.
While the Landholder had only £6B out of his £lOO
from the different charges upon him, the Fund-holder
pocketed the whole of his £lOO. It was impossible
to proceed with the present-system of taxation, as
one-sixth of the means of the community had been
taken away. He should always maintain that the
Fundhoider was bound to pay for the. security of
his propel ty, as well as any other class of proprietors.
-It was incumbent 6k-those who opposed the present
measure, to shew that low prices were beneficial to
the Manufacturing Luc; e.t. He should support the

present measure, and any other that had ecotserli
for its object. lie was of opinion that the step take,l-.
for the resumption of cash payments bad no effect
in 'creating the present distress.
Mr. BLNETT (of Wilts) never wished to separate
the interests of the agricultural and commercial
classes. These interests were, in fact, inseparable. If
there was any hope of an effective measure from the
Agricultural Committee, then the House might be
called upon to wait for its Itepott. But after there.
fusal to take into consideration the suggestion of the
Members for Taunton and Nrtarlington, the House
was bound to take up the subject themselves. No
one had proposed to take off the duties on hats, on
china, or leather ; but the moment it ;as proposed
to lay a tax on the importation of foreign grain, the
unceasing changes had been rung on the benefits of
a free trade. The poor had no beer at home, as had
been the case formerly, and were forted to repitir
tQ
the alehouse, where a great part of their wages wete
spent, and their morals corrupted. That was the
consequence of the high tax on malt—(hear, hear).
He should support cordially the repeal of the tax.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS observed, that none of the sup:
porters of the Bill had pointed out its good effects to
the farmers. 'lite tax was quite fair, as it was spread
equally over the whole of the community. The de.
mand for the repeal was the more unreasonable, after
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been called
upon to lay down a permanent system of finance.
Mr. BRIGHT believed that many other taxes
were of more importance to the consumer than this
tax. Still he thought, that if the means of Geyer*,
merit were lessened, their vigilance would be jo,.
creased. Ile believed, that in the Navy Estimates*
reduction equal to this tax might be made. The
commercial was equal to the agricultural distress,
and the remedy for both was economy. He woul4
vote for the removal of the tax, but upon the princi.
ple that no other would be substituted in its room.
The agricultural interest knew the tenure on whids
they had purchased their estates, and had no right to
turn round on the commercial interest, and call upon
them to share their burthens.
Colonel WOOD agreed with Honottrable3lembers,
that the interests of Commerce and Agriculture were
inseparable. Ile could not admit that the present
Bill would afford much relief to the Agricultural la-
terest. The consumer would not derive much benefit
from the repeal of the tax. When the tax had been
taken off, in 1816, no diminution had taken place in
the price of beer ; and the reason given by the brewers
was, that they were not certain but the Chancellor of
the Exchequer might lay it on again. A greater is.
jury could not be done, than to break down the in-
come of the country, and in that way run the risk of
another struggle. It would have been but fair on the
present occasion to have waited for the Report of the
Agricultural Committee. Should a modified Pro.
petty Tax be adopted, he would vote for the aboli-
tion of the Malt Tax ; but, till that took place, he
must vote for the Tax.

Mr. F. LEWIS thought it was decidedly wise to
get rid of the Income Tax, as one peculiarly oppres-
sive, not only in itself, but from the mode of its col-
lection:lf the Property l'ax did not embrace income,
the sphere of its operation would be extremely nar-
rowed. He thought it would be unwise to get rid of
the ordinary taxes, and to impose a Property Tax its
time of peace. He looked at the Property Tax as one
for a state of war alone ; for he would have all fa
reign nations know that we were prepared for war,
by hating that tax as a resource in such a dilficuky.
For this reason he could not consent to the repeal of
the Malt Tax. Looking at,the subject of wades
generally, he found it to-be oneCvihich he knew not
how this country could welkget rid of; and therefore
he could not vote for the Government being deprived
of the means of carrying on the business d the State
He also wished that the Sinking Fund should not be
deprived of the small pittance paid towards it. It
the way the accounts were made out, he could not
tell how much had been redeemed from theNatitael
Debt in the last year, but he had no doubt that the
utmost reduction would amount to a million or
million and a half-at most. He wished as much as
any man for every fair and proper reduction in our
eipenditure ; and he had no doubt that such redo*.
tion would be made. lie did not in his conscience
believe that the repeal of this tax would produce that
wonderful effect in behalf of the Agricultural Inte-
rests that was so sanguinely expected from it. Thee
must increase the price as well as the consumption
before this measure could be beneficial to any ether
but the maltster and the brewer; and not at all te
the barley grower, or to the consumer. If the to.
moval of this tax would, in his opinion, give a tem-
porary relief, he would vote for it ; but he believed
that the heavy ill arose from the pressure of Stamps.
Colonel WOOD explained. He never wished to
have an inquisitorial Income Tax ; what be wished
for was a well-regulated Income Tax, to which the
farmers only looked for relief.
Captain GOlt DON wished for an equalization of
the Duties on Malt in Scotland. He did not wish to
embarrass the Government by a repeal of this Tu,
but he wished for a fair investigation into the subject.
Mr. SMYTH supported the Bill. He was for a
Property Tax, or an Income Tax; but he was Inc
magnum vecligal, parsimonia. He could not ago
0
with those who sanctioned our ruinous expenditure,
and went entirely along with those who wished fore
reduction of 10,000 men in the Army, and all other
reductions which could give relief to the various ie•
terests in the country. The best preparation for wee
was to husband our resources. For these reasons be
should give his decided vote in favour of the reed
of this Tar.
Lord CASTLEREAGH, before he proceeded°
address the House, desired that the Clerk might eat
a Resolution come to by the House, on the etb
June, 1819.
The Clerk then read the following Resolutioae •
" Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Cnatenittrtt
provide fur the exigencies of the Public Service, and far OW'
an efficient reduction of the National Debt, as will elects*
support public credit, and afford the country a hoped sib=
dal relief front its present burdens, It Is absolutely nesewar
a clear Sinking Fund, of not less than 5e.5,Q00,000, shall be der77:-.
blished ; and, with a view to this,it is expedient now to stresa,
the Revenue of the country. by imposing new Tams to thesis/AI
of £3,000,000 per annum."
Lord CASTLEREAGH proceeded. He rseco
redeem his pledge, by opposing thisßiU; and, in 67
so, it could be no light matter to a man, stanJin
the responsible situation in Which he was placed: to
, ,
oppose a Bill which professed to be for the relief "
tbe people, and more tspecialy slut great latelt4

I

for which this measure was intended as a benefit
(JJear. hear).-11 we were in a situation to get rid of
any of the present Taxes, still this was not the Tax
which he could recommend to have repealed:—
Re was not afraid of the British Parliament doing
anything to break .down the public credit of the
country, which had raised us so high among the
nations ; but he warned the House not to admit such
a measure indirectly, and by so: doing, to reduce
the public creditor to depend upon the precarious
loans which might be effected by a Bankrupt Ex-
chequer --(Hear, hear).—The repeal of this Tax
would not carry the smallest quantum of relief to any
one farmer in the country, which he, or the whole
farming interest would be able to discover. This
'ax was not laid on incidentally, but as a branch of
'a large system, solemnly recognized by the British
Parliament, as a means of preserving entire the whole
(public credit of the country. This fact he (Lord
oCastlereagh) wished to press particularly on the at-
;lotion of the House. In no degree had the con-
stimption of Barley been decreased by this Tax ; on
the contrary, it had increased in a very considerable
'ratio; and he could assure the House that the price
of beer had been twice reduced since this Tax was
laid on ; and so far it had not been burdensome' on
the consumer. The amount of the Tax, he believed,
*is three. fhrthings on a gallon of beer; and if that
was taken off, how could the consumer of beer feel
any relief ashen he drank it by the pint or quart. He,
fur one, was at a loss to discover how such a person
could be benefitted by it; and, indeed, it was his
opinion, that if the Tax were taken off to-morrow,
the only effect of it would be to di ininish the Revenue
by a million and a half of money, without giving the
slightest relief to the consumer of the article—(f/car).
The increase in the consumption of beer exceeded
1;200,000 bat rels a-year since this Tax was impose l ;
so that they were now looking at the surface of the
question, rather than going into its proper and mi-
nute details. He could better understand the Hon.
Member if he had moved for a repeal of then u sbandr y
Horse Tax, which was a direct Tax on the Agricul-1
rural Interest, which he loved so dearly--(A laugh).
was'sure that the Landed Interest would not accept
a paltry relief at the expense of the finance., and the
public credit of the country. Ile thought that, if it
were proper to deprive the Revenue of any tax, they
should rather propose the repeal of the Window and
Salt Tax, which bore more on the Agricultural In-
terest, and the poorer orders of the people of this
country. He should always endeavour to chew the
House and the Country how fallacious such schemes
and propositions of temporary relief must be. If they
were to take.a general view of the state of the coun-
try, the House would see that the repeal of this tax
would not be beneficial to the firmei or the con-
sumer. If all the taxes in the State were to be re-
pealed to-morrow, it would give no relief to the
farmer, except they could go a little farther, and
increase the consumption of his commodities. It
was decidedly better to have three millions coming
into the Sinking Fund than nothing at all.—
Ministers were occupied in considerations of reduction
to that point which would not interfere with the puhiic
credit, or the wants of the State; but they did, in
)819, lay on three millions of taxes to support that
public credit. Would they then in two years allow
that the country was so bankrupt in iesource, as to be
obliged to give up one million and a half, which
might influence our means of maintaining peace with
Europe and the world ? ( Hear, hear).— Ibis was
not a question between the House and the Govern-
ment, but between the House and the Country, and
be was sure they would view it as such. If this mea-
sure should be carried, it would then he for the Go,
rernment to say what it would do for its own honour
with the public creditor ; but if it should be carried,
it would be a most suicidal measure for the country.
No man, he trusted, could feel more for the People
than he did, and especially for the Landed Interest ;
but the repeal of this tax would be of no advantage
to either of them--( Hear, hear).
Mr. COKE, of Norfolk, was of opinion that relief
could not be long refused, because the landed inte-
lest would in the end beat down the Noble Lord and ,
his patronage. He thought many of those who now
called for relief for the Agriculturist ought to blame
themselves for the distress, which had its origin in the
system of Mr. Pitt, in support of which many of those
Honourable Gentlemen had voted for the last twenty-
five years. He was sorry to have lived to see the
present state of the country ; and though he voted for
the present Bill, he was convinced that nothing less
than a change of system would afford anything like
relief. The Noble Lord and his adherents said, that
a reduction in taxation could not he effected without
a breach of faith. Ile wished to ask the Noble Lord
when that House kept its faith ?—(llear, hear !)
He had been forty years a Member of that House,
and he had never kuown it to keep its faith ; and he
bad therefore no faith in it !—(/Tear, hear).—ln point
of fact, the Noble Lord governed this country single-
handed, because the People were of one opinion, and
the Noble Lord of another. The Noble Lord had
said, that the repeal of this tax would afford no re-
lief. He would wish the Noble Lord to look at the
prices of horley in 1816 and 1817, when it paid a
heavy tax. In those years the price was about 18s.
When he (Mr. Coke) moved for a repeal of the War
Malt Tax, in winch he succeeded, what was the con-
sequence? The price of barley rose, and there was
no complaint from the grower until the blunderings
and shifts—(A laugh)—of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer compelled him to impose the present tax,
the immediate result of which was complaints and
petitions fiona all quarters.
Lord ARCHIBALD HANIILTON rose amidst
cries of " Question, question!"—He could assure the
Rouse, after the impatience manifested, he should
not trole them at any length; but if he allowed
this (potion to pass without recording his opinions,
be felt that lie should lose the best opportunity of jus-
tifying himself to his Constituents. The Honourable
Members who had preceded him in the debate, in
*capon of the tax, had introduced such a variety of
'wantons .matter, that he (Lord Archibald Hamil-
ton) was at a loss where to begin. The Honourable
14emher for Bosun. y had assumed, that the present
expendituie was necessary, and therefore concluded
that the taxes voted for that expenditure could not
be repealed ; but he was of opinion, that what had
Passed in that House during the present Session was
sufficient to satisfy every man that a reduction ex-
ceeding the amount of this tax might be made in
dial expenditure. had the Noble Lord made up his

I mind tliW no reciaetion shotild take place? tie was
one cf those who wete of opinion that the Noble
Lord could not per severe lit the present system bf
etperiditute and texatien ; ii.nd with regard to this tar,
he was astonished how the candcul of the Noble
Lord would-permit him to say tbat the repeal of it
Would afford no relief to the agriculturists He would
offer no argument to shew that it would afford re-
lief; because if the Petitions upon the table did not
satisfy the Noble Lord and the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer upon That point, no argument of his could
do it. He put no faith in the promises of the Noble
Lord, that Ministers would retire from office if the
taxes were repealed ; because he remembered the
failure of the Income Tax, when similar professions
wete made, and he remembered the sending back of
the Army Estimates twice did not compel the Noble
Lord to retire. He did believe that the independent
vote of one Honourable Member (the Earl of Fife) lost
hini. his situation, and that the Noble Lord would on
similer occasions resort to similar acts. (Hear.) This
being the case, could it be said that the fair opinions of
persons holding situations•could be gatheted? He
opposed this tax or, the ground of its being generally
injurious to the landed interest. The House would
recollect, that the Noble Lord, in agreeing to a Com-
mittee on Agriculture, had said, they must not take
into consideration the Revenue, the Corn Laws, or
the Currency; but he would ask the House, of what
effect would be the appointment of a Committee, if
thes were not to examine those laws which particu-
larly affected Agriculture? Adverting again to the
removal of the Earl of Fife, the Noble Lord ob-
served, that the removal of the Noble Earl was highly
creditable to him as a man of honour ; he had acted
in conformity with his own feelings, and also accord-
ing to the dictates, if not the actual instructions of his
(Lord Fife's) Constituents—(llenr, hear). He felt it
necessary to say so much in favour of his Noble
Trien.l, whose manly and independent conduct was
highly I ianurable both to his head and his heart—
(hear, her, r, hear). He hoped that the case df his
Noble friead (the Earl of Fife) would be a warning
to other Honourable Members -.that it would evince
to them that there were certain situations, however
honourable iii any other point of view, which could
not be held consistently with an independent vote in
that House—(Hear, hear). The Noble Lord con-
cluded by supporting the motion.—(Loral cries of
" Question, Question! Lord Fife, Lord I"
The Ea f FIFE rose, amid loud cheering, and
cries of Question !—He would not, he said, have pre-
sumed to address the House, were it not for what
had fallen front the Noble Lord. He was not ambi-
tious of engaging their attention, or occupying their
valualee time; and on the present occasion it would
be much mote agreeable to his feelings not to do so,
but there might be occasions when silence. wuel.l
war rant conclusions which he did not wish to be
drawn. He had no hesitation in sayieg, that the
mode adopted lately with respect to the place which
lie had had the honour to have held, was not; in his
opinion, necessary at the present time, but was
adopted, perhaps, for a motive which he should nct
name—( Hear, hear).—lt was not rendered necessary,
because he had some time ago.evinced his readiness
to retire, from a conviction that he could not con-
sistently discharge his other duties.'fie had accepted
the place under peculiar circumstances, and he must
say, the time chosen for conentmicating to him that
his Majesty had no further occasion for his services
was net the most suitable—(icar, hear).—He was
ordered to attend his Majesty to Ireland, and imme-
diately after giving a vote in that House, which was
not dictated by party spit it, but by a sense of duty
to his Constituents, and a vote which was in unison
with one given in the last year upon the same sub-
ject, he had received this communication.. If this
hasty and abrupt resolution were intended as a repri-
mand for that vote, he did not regret it (Hear, hear).
Or if it were intended as a signal of terror to those
in similar situations, he did not regret it—(Cheers).—
Having trespassed so long upon the House with re-
gard to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, he
hoped the House would indulge him for a few mo-
ments in stating his objections to the present tax ;
hut before he did so, he must beg leave to remark,
that in his case, the maxim, that resistance, when
successful, was not a crime, was reversed; because
when lie had in the last year voted with the minority
on this question, no notice was taken of the circum-
stance, but the moment his name appeared with the
majority, he was informed that his services were no
longer wanted!—(Hear, hear).—He was not hurt nor
offended in any way by this communication; and he
hoped that his future conduct would spew that he
would act as fairly and as consistently as his humble.
abilities would permit, and that his conduct should
be marked by loyalty to the Throne, and attachment
to the person of that Monarch, to whom he was as
true as the dial to the sun, though that sun might
not always continue to shed its rays upon it!—(Hear,
hear).—ln whatever light he viewed this question, he
thought it unjust and im...solitic in principle, and
ruinous in effect—(Cheers).
Lord FOLKSTONE said, he had been called the
I advocate of spoliation ; and it had been said that he
must have advanced the arguments used by him on
a former night without reflection. He was anxious
to contradict this assumption. He had advanced the
opinion he had given on that occasion, on the most
mature consideration. Gentlemen urged this ques-
tion as if we were in a situation perfectly equal to the
payment of our Debt, and that he advised the non-
payment of it, because it was not agreeable. Now,
the country was not in such a situation ; neither had
he given any such advice ; he had stated his opinion,
not that the debt shotelsi not be paid, because it was
not agreeable, but because he considered it as impos-
sible—( Cries of " Divide r).
Mr. WODEHOUSE said, after the fullest consi-
deration he was still determined to support the Bill
of the Member for-Essex.

Mr. WESTERN replied. In 1816 Ministers de-
clared the affairs of the country could nct be carried
on without a Property-tax; and that by that tax they
would stand or fall. The tax was taken from them ;

abut they retained their places, and brought forward
a reduced set of Estimates; and he was persuaded
they would now adopt the same course if the House,
as he trusted it would, should deprive them of this
tax also.—The House then divided—
For the second reading
Against it 4411
Majority against the Bin, and in favour of Ministers —9s

The other Orders were dispond of, and the 'louse adjourned
at Half-pact I.lw4re o'Clock.