The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1839-11-22 00:00:00

THE MAYOR'S ALLOWANCE.

Mr. ISAAC HoLMaS,;isl;edstOcO;iWta mis-statement
which had appeared in the papers, relative to what he had
said of the Mayor's allowance. The report in the papers
made it appear, that what he wished for was, that the allow-
ance to the Mayor should be £250 only ; whereas his re-
commendation was, that, in addition to the allowance, the
Mayor should be allowed £250 to expend in charitable pur-
poses, so that his name might appear at the head of every
charitable list. He appealed to the council whether such had
not been the nature of his suggestion.
Mr. RATHBONE distinctly recollected that such was the
meaning of Mr. Holmes.
Mr. Alderman G. HOLT stated, that in the allowance to
the Mayor there was a sum of £2OO set apart for benevolent
purposes, so that he had a sufficient fund for taking the lead
in subscribing to charitable institutions, without having re-
course to his private purse.
MEMORIAL OF BURGESSES OF ST. ANN'S WARD.

The MAYOR stated that he had received the folloissing me-
morial, signed by 126 burgesses of St. Ann's ward :
" We, the undersigned electors of St. Ann's Ward, have
heard, with feelings of great regret, of the unbecoming and
unfounded remarks made by Mr. Thomas Coglan, at the
meeting of the Town-council, on Saturday, the ninth No-
vember instant, against the character and integrity of our
respected representative, Robert Jones, jun., Esq., one of the
councillors for this ward.

" We are at a loss to conceive upon what grounds any
statement could be made insinuating that he was privy to an
attempt to personate a voter of the name of John Bond, at
the late election.

" We are prepared to prove that the imputation is utterly
untrue, and that Mr. Jones was not in the booth at the time
of the personation.
" We respectfully represent to the -council that Mr. Jones
has the confidence of the majority of persons in this ward,
and that the efforts which have been made to impeach his
honour and integrity have excited in us unqualified dis-
approbation.
In conclusion, allow us to express our astonishment that
the name of Mr. Jones does not appear upon any one of your
committees : we hope the omission has not been caused by
party spirit, and that there is no desire in the council to en-
gender a feeling of exclusiveness in the choice of the members
of the several committees.

" Liverpool, 19th November, 1839."
Mr. Isaac HOLMES said that he certainly felt extremely
sorry to rise on this occasion, more especially when he con-
sidered the nature of the remarks which had on a former oc-
casion been made by Mr. Coglan, as to the recently elected
member for St. Anne's Ward. It now appeared that the
statement made at the last council meeting was entirely erro-
neous ; and that so far from having been in the booth at the
time the disputed vote was tendered, Mr. Jones was not near
it ; and also, that if Mr. Jones had wished to have any per-
son to personate a voter on his behalf, the individual who
came forward to do so would have been the very last he would
have selected for that purpose. He hoped that, looking at
these facts, the gentleman who had made the charge would
now be as ready to acknowledge that it was unfounded, as he
had been to bring it forward. He understood that the alder-
man of the ward had been referred to, as one able to corrobo-
the accusation ; but he b elieved that there had been a mis-
take as to the time—for, instead of the occurrence having
taken place, as stated, at a quarter past three, it could now be
proved that it did not take place until a quarter to four. This
made a very material difference ; for if the tendered vote had
been received without scruple, as he believed many of a similar
kind had been, it would have made no alteration on the return
for St. Anne's Ward. The charge of an attempt to obtain an
improper return must therfore be at once abandoned ; and the
integrity of Mr. Jones, notwithstanding anything that might
have been said, would be unimpeached and unimpeachable.
With respect to Mr. Jones not having been placed on any of
the committees, that was not perhaps a point of much im-
portance ; for they were all well aware how these committees
were formed. Besides Mr. Jones, there were four or five
others in the council,' himself (Mr. Holmes) amongst the
number, who had not been placed on any committee. As re-
garded himself, the council were surely well aware where he
had learnt his political lesson; it was in the school of whiggery
where he had been taught, and therefore every allowance
should have been made in his case. Those whigs, as he had
before said, where so pure in profession, so liberal in thought,
that if their professions were taken for their actions, and their
thoughts for deeds, we should have a perfect character. But
with respect to Mr. Jones and Mr. Rigby, he knew not what
language they had used to induce their exclusion. He begged
.to move that the memorial be laid on the table.
Mr. JOHN SMITH seconded the motion.
Mr. COGLAN said, that the gentleman who had just ad-
dressed the meeting seemed to say that if he (Mr. Coglan)
had made an incorrect statement; he ought to feel it to be
bis duty to make the amende honorable; and he should do
so—nay, more, he should feel it to be his duty personally to
make an apology to the complaining party. He begged to
call attention to some circumstances that would place the
matter in its true light. When a motion was made for in-
quiry into the case of Connor, who had personated a gentle-
man named Bond, there was made out a fair and clear case
for inquiry into that, without connexion with any other.
Some thought differently, and wished the town-clerk to in-
vestigate every case of personation, real or supposed, in other
.wards. During the discussion, he rose and stated that there
were some particular circumstances connected with the case
in St. Anne's Ward, which deserved to be investigated, and
that the amendment could not prevent a scrutiny into that
case. The particular features were, as stated to him, that
the individual who personated Bond was the brother-in-law
of Mr. Jones (now the member for the ward), in itself rather
a suspicious circumstance, but it was still further stated to
him that Mr. Jones was in the booth—not, as had been ra-
ther incorrectly reported in the papers, when the vote was
tendered ; but the noise and confusion at the time he was
addressing the council were so great, that it was very easy
for the reporters to make a mistake. What he did say was,
that Mr. Jones was in the booth for a part of the time that
the vote was under investi ation. Connor did not vote, and
therefore he (Mr. Coglancould not have stated that Mr.
Jones was present when onnor did vote. If he had then
been permitted, he should have gone on to state that during
a portion of the time the matter was under investigation,
Mr. Jones was present, and that the personating individual
was in the view of Mr. Jones at that period. Such was-the
information which he had received from Mr. Alderman
Benn, Mr. Haydock, Mr. Helsby, and other respectable
gentlemen, whose names were a guarantee for their integrity;
and with the testimony of such gentlemen, was he to be
called upon to retract ? Uhtil it was proved that the state-
ments of those gentlemen were incorrect, he would appeal to
the council whether he was not perfectly justified in with-
holding any apology or retraction. Mr. Grocott, one of the
assessors, had also come forward with a denial, in the
Standard of yesterday ; but, in his evidence before the ma-
gistrates, he said that he would not swear whether Mr. Jones
was present or not, but that he was there a little before or
after ; and now he writes a letter distinctly denying that Mr.
Jones was in the booth, although in his evidence he said he
could not tell. He (Mr. Coglan) thought he should be jus-
tified in calling upon the town-clerk for the depositions, in
order that they might be read.
The MAYon. apprehended that the proper time for the dis-
cussion of the subject would be at a future council, when the
report of the Town-clerk would be brought forward.
Mr. COGLAN said that it was necessary, for the sake of his
own character, to show the discrepancy between the statement
in Mr. Grocott's letter and his statement on oath. He ap-
pealed to Mr. Rathhone for the confirmation of what he had
said with respect to Mr. Grocott's testimony.
Mr. RATHBONE said that he was present when Mr. Giv-
cott gave his evidence, and certainly, after having deliberately
waited before he answered, he (Mr. Grocott) said, that he
could not take upon himself to say whether Mr. Jones was
or was not in the booth at the time.
Mr. JOHN SMITH asked whether Mr. Jones would be
allowed to produce evidence on his side.
The TOWN-CLERK said, it appeared to him very improper
thus to go into the case piecemeal. It might with advantage
stand over till the report had been given in. In answer to
Mr. Smith, he should say, certainly. If any person presented
himself to give evidence on the behalf of Mr. Jones, he
should take down what was said word for word, the same as
if be were for the other party.
Mr. R. JONES, Jun. thought it right that the public should
know in what position he stood, and he would tell them ho-
nestly. Mr. Coglan had stated that although he (Mr. Jones)
was not present when the vote was tendered, he was there
during a part of the discussion, and that the personator stood
within his view. He begged to state, and he thought that
he could establish the assertion by evidence on oath, that he
had not seen him (the personator) from that time until now.
Mr. BUSHELL said, that the question was one of the
deepest importance to Mr. Jones, because, if the charge
could be proved—which God forbid !—he thought it could
not; but if it were, then it would be the duty of the council
to request that Mr. Jones would retire from that chamber,
seeing that his character would not permit him to occupy
a place in that council. Now, it appeared from the memo-
rial which had been that day presented, and from the testi-
mony of one hundred and twenty-five persons—(Mr. B.
stopped, and requested that some of the names on the first
sheet might be read over. That having been done, he pro-
ceeded.) He thought no one would deny that there were the
names of some very respectable persons attached to the me-
morial, and they had come forward and denied that Mr.
Jones was in the booth. (Cries of " No, no," and " They
only speak to his character." That part of the memorial
which said, " We are prepared to prove that the imputation
is utterly untrue, and that Mr. Jones was not in the booth
at the time of the personation" having been read, Mr.
Bushell continued.) Well, that was something very like
their having been present. They would not have said that
they were prepared to prove that Mr. Jones was not in the
booth unless they had had evidence of the fact, which to
them was perfectly satisfactory. That an individual bad en-
deavoured to personate an elector, and that Mr. Jones was
charged with having been present at the time the fraud was
attempted, there was no doubt ; but, as far as the council
were concerned, the whole question hinged on Mr. Jones's
character, and he thought that there ought to be that full in-
vestigation which Mr. Jones coveted, for it was of the deepest
importance that those who sat there should be unsullied, so
far as they could be. He suggested that the postponement
should be for as short a period as was consistent with a full
investigation ; for he must say that, if he were in Mr. Jones's
situation, he should not be able to sleep with the thought of
such a charge hanging over him.

-
The MAYOR said that there was no desire to postpone the
matter, except until the town-clerk's report could be pre-
sented, which would be at the next council meeting.
Mr. BLACKBURN said that it was extremely injudicious to
take up the time of the council in this manner, as the subject
must come to a full discussion when the report of the town-
clerk was brought forward ; and it would have been the
wisest plan to have postponed the presentation of the memo-
rial until then.

Mr. HODGSON inquired whether the evidence would be
taken in open court, and when and where, because the ques-
tion was of sufficient importance to make publicity desirable.
Mr. JORDAN observed that that was an imputation on the
town-clerk, which came very badly from Mr. Hodgson.
Mr. RATHBONE said that the idea of the town-clerk hold-
ing an open court was so absurd that the town-clerk should
be excused from giving any reply whatever to the question.
Mr. HODGSON rose, but was immediately saluted with
loud cries of " Spoke, spoke." Mr. Hodgson retorted by
exclaiming, " Mr. Rathbone has spoken more than once."
The MAYOR thought that the town clerk had better answer
the question.
The TOWN-CLERIC stated that if he did hold a court for
the investigation of the business, which he had no authority
to do, he should not get on very fast. There was no reason
why he should deviate from the course hitherto adopted,
which was, to take down the evidence of each person, apart
from every other witness, and then to ask what questions he
thought fit upon it.
Mr. COOPER thought it very strange that- this charge
should again be advanced without further proof, seeing that,
when Mr. Alderman Benn was referred to as the person who
could corroborate Mr. Coglan's statement, he, after having
been called upon by Mr. Jones to do so, if he could, still kept
his seat. (Cries of " No, no • he did not call upon him.")
At any rate, Mr. Coglan called upon the alderman to support
his statement, and Mr. Benn did not move from his chair.
Mr. COGLAN said that when, at the last council meeting,
he was called upon to retract, on the mere ground of Mr.
Jones's denial, he (Mr. Coglan) got up to address the coun-
cil, amidst a deal of noise and confusion ; and, pitching his
voice to its highest altitude, he said that Mr. Benn could, if
interrogated, corroborate his statement. No one, however,
did interrogate the alderman, and therefore he did not get
up. He (Mr. C.) made no accusation ; he merely stated
facts, or what were communicated to him as facts, and asked
that inquiry should be instituted.

N A% •

\

N\,*\ • \

'1
~ ``.

Mr. Alderman EARLE—Our friends are so eloquent at the
other end of the room, that we shall never have done.
Mr. G. WRIGHT said he believed that it was he who
called upon Mr. Coglan to retract the charge which had been
made. (Loud laughter from Mr. Alderman Earle.) Mr.
Earle might laugh if he liked ; but, in his opinion, it was no
laughing matter, and particularly to the accused party.
Mr. Alderman EARLE--1 shall now laugh on both sides
of my face. •

Mr. WRIGHT, in continuation—When called upon, Mr.
Benn, who was said to be the person who could corroborate
the charge of Mr. Coglan, remained silent ; and in his opinion
the one was just as culpable as the other. He thought that
Mr. Jones was entitled to an apology.
Mr. Alderman EARLE—Don't laugh, gentlemen.
Mr. WRIGHT—He thought, lie said, that Mr. Jones was
entitled to an apology, seeing the painful nature of the accu-
sation preferred against him, and, he believed, unjustly. Mr.
Jones was a gentleman whose respectability and integrity
were as unassailable as those of any in the town.

Mr. BOLTON thought the discussion premature. They
ought to wait for the report of the town-clerk, and then they
would get into the merits of the case. He should propose
that they go to the order of the day.
The MAYOR then put the motion that the memorial lie on
the table, which was carried without opposition.
THE ODDFELLOW'S BALL.

The MAYOR said that the next memorial was one from the
Oddfellows, requesting the use of the Town-hall for the pur-
pose of holding therein their annual ball, as the Templars'-
hall, and other rooms which they had been accustomed to
use, were now too small for their increased numbers. He
supposed that it had better be referred to the Finance Com-
mittee.

Mr. CURRIE said that they had nothing to do with it,
unless it were for a charitable purpose.
Mr. HUGH HORNBY thought the memorial stated that the
ball was for a charitable purpose.
The TOWN-CLERK then read the memorial, which showed
that this was the case. The following is an extract :—" We
do not merely confine ourselves to the relief of those imme-
diately connected with us, but, as before stated, to the relief
of mankind in general. We could enumerate several in-
stances had we room, but shall merely state a few, and those
few confined to the public charities. On the Ist day of May,
1836, collected at Stockport, after a charity sermon, preach-
ed at the request of, the Oddfellows, £139 14s. 6d. for the
Stockport Infirmary ; in the summer of 1837, at a procession
in Manchester, assisted by Liverpool, £5OO for the Deaf and
Dumb School. During one year twenty-four lodges in Man-
chester and Salford expended, in acts of charity, no less a
sum than £1450 16s. Oldham Blue Coat School has receiv-
ed sums of money, among which £lOO stand conspicuous.
Thus you see, sir and gentlemen, whatever those may say of
us who know nothing of our tenets, our society is, and, ever
has been, productive of much good. Nor is Liverpool for-
gotten ; for we have now established a benevolent fund, for
the sole purpose of annually presenting the charitable insti-
tutions of this town with something in aid of the funds. We
have also a fund established for the relief of the widows and
orphans of Oddfellows ; and it is our custom to have a ball
annually, the profits of which we devote to the said fund."
Mr. COOPER said that the institution appeared to be a
charitable one, and he should therefore move that the me-
morial be referred to the Finance Committee. Agreed to.
Several applications for the office of manager of the weigh-
ing machines at the New Haymarket were referred to the
Market Committee.

A memorial from the inhabitants of Hill-street and the
neighbourhood, complaining of the nuisance arising from a
steam flour-mill, in Hill-street, was referred to the Deputy
Town-clerk.

Mr. ISAAC HOLMES said if it were to be established that
smoke was a nuisance, they would hardly know where to be-
gin or end. At the northern end of the town there was
hardly anything but smoke.
The MAYok said that the gaol business would stand over
till the next council.

REPORT ON EXTRAORDINARY EXPENDITURE.

The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERi read the original report of the
Town-clerk on extraordinary expenditure ; is as follows:

EXTRAORDINARY EXPENDITURE.

The Town-clerk considers the presenttime, the last day
of their meeting in the municipal year, as a fitting oppbrtu-
nity to draw the attention of the Finance Committee to the
following facts bearing upon questions of great importance.
On careful investigation it appears, that, after defraying
the obligatory expenditure and the discretionary applications
out of surplus in matters of annual recurrence, and which
(always subject to annual revision) may be expected to be
permanent, a disposable annual surplus of a greater amount
than about £lO,OOO cannot be calculated upon : a fund which
ought not to be too much relied on, considering the various
contingencies to which it is subject.
The following extraordinary payments were made in the
last year :-
Ist. In the purchase of land, &c., as follows :
Magazines . £2,007 12 7
New Police Stations 6,594 12 0
Land, &c., New Haymarkets
Purchase of Premises, Benn's-garden 290 0 6

£17,842 14 6

2d. In public improvements, cf extraordinary nature
(exclusive of improvements under the Improvement Act,:
viz. :
St. James's Market
General Improvement.
Borough Gaol
Baths 1,917 2 11
Slaughter-houses .. 1,700 1 4
New Custom-house 9,135 13 6

£22,839 18 11

These, it is obvious, could not have been met by ordinary
income, and, indeed, were defrayed out of extraordinary re-
ceipts not likely often to recur in the same or any other
shape.
In the improvement and increase of the corporate estate,
which amounts to upwards of three millions nett, after de-
duction of debt, and in its administration for the public good,
occasions will arise when it will be for the interest of the
town that investments in purchases and for extraordinary
improvements should be made.
If, however, such investments are made to any extent, the
whole surplus revenue will be entirely absorbed, to the ma-
nifest injury of present claimants on the benefit of its appli-
cation.

With this impression, on the one hand, and, on the other,
with the opinion that the interests of posterity ought, to
fair extent, to have protection, the Town-clerk submits that
all such extraordinary investments as may hereafter be
deemed by the Council proper for the public good, might be
made by means of money raised on bond, subject to the fol-
lowing regulations, which should be made obligatory by par-
liamentary provisions :-Ist. That the property to be acquired
by the investment shall yield, at the least, a nett rental equal
to the interest on any money borrowed for its payment. Or,
2dly. That, for replacing the investment 'where -there is no
rental, or for replacing a proper proportionate part of it,
when there shall be rental less than the required amount, a
reduction fund of £2 per cent. per annum shall be created
and set apart.
On calculation, it appears that in twenty-eight years this
fund of £2 per cent. per annum, at 4 per cent. compound
interest, would pay off the principal.
And the effect of compound interest would be obtained by
annually paying off general bond debt of the corporatiOn,
the reduction fund takin.- interest On the debt so paid off,
until the object of that fund was attained.
Cases will no doubt arise 'in which property purchased,
not productive in the first instance of the required rental,
would subsequently become so after liquidating the outlay
upon it. In such cases the rent, when it might arise, would
be fairly applicable to the reduction fund for its diminution
or extinction, as the case might be ; and the proceeds of
sales, and fines on leases of the property, would be fairly
applicable to the same object.
At present, the Council have before them, as prospective
charges upon the current year, the following extraordinary
subjects :
Site of Old Fort and land surrounding . £27,850
Haymarkets, further purchases contracted for.. 4,710
completing.
Boundary-place
Building Obsertatory .
Building three new Schools £lO,OOO, probably
in the present year about
Land, Gill-street, for new Marker 6,415
Addition to St. James's Market 2,000

£52,625

If the plan now proposed should be approved, application
for legislative provision will have to be directed by the Coun-
cil, the Municipal Corporations Act making no provision for
borrowing money, and none of the amendment acts making
any other provision than that of mortgage—a plan as objec-
tionable aN it is unisecessary, considering the large property
and undoubted credit of the corporation.
Town-hall, 27th October, 1839.

The TOWN'-CLERIC stated that the requisite notices had
been given, and there the parliamentary proceedings stood at
present. He then proceeded to read the following :

SUPPLEMENTARY REPORT ON EXTRAORDINARY
EXPENDITURE.

" By an act of the next session, after the passing of the
municipal corporations act, intituled, 'An act for the better
administration of the borough fund in certain boroughs,' it
was enacted, that the power of disposition allowed over the
lands and hereditaments of the body corporate, with the ap-
probation of the treasury, extended to dispositions by way of
mortgage; such power being subject to the conditions, that
notice of the intention of the council to apply to the treasury,
shall be fixed in some public place within the borough one
month before the application ; and that a copy of the memo-
rial shall be freely open to the inspection of every burgess
during the same period.
_ _

" If authority be obtained from the legislature to raise
money on bond, no doubt the like restrictions will be imposed.
But in addition to these, in all cases in which the investment
does not yield nett rental equal to the interest of the money
borrowed, there must, upon the plan proposed, be another
and a most important restriction—viz., the report of a com-
mittee by which it shall pledge itself, not only to the propriety
of the investment, but to the fact that there is disposable
surplus income to an extent sufficient to pay the interest upon
the money to be borrowed, and to provide a reduction fund
to the extent of £2 per cent. per annum in addition. Thus,
if £50,000 be wanted, supposing that amount to be borrowed
at 4d per cent., as can be readily done at present, there will
be required, out of disposable surplus income, £3,000 per
annum, viz., £2,000 for interest and £l,OOO for reduction.
Thenceforward, for 28 years, £3,000 per annum must be
obligatory expenditure.
" No reduction fund can be effectual that is not based on
surplus income : if it were to rest on money borrowed, its
most successful result could only be neutralized, or keep
matters as they are. On surplus income it must depend ;
and that surplus must, in a great measure, always be depen-
dent on improvement in the various sources of our income,
and economy in every branch of our expenditure."
" Town-hall. 20th Nov. 1839."
Mr. CURRIE said that as a chairman of the Finance Com-
mittee, he had now to move the confirmation of the report.
Whatever strong opinions might be exhibited in that room
on other subjects, he was happy to think that they would
approach this with minds perfectly calm and dispassionate.
For the information of those gentlemen who had been re-
cently. sent to the council, he would briefly detail the circum-
stances out of which the Town-clerk's report arose. There
were some gentlemen very desirous for the erection of an
observatory ; but the subject was often postponed on financial
considerations, as not being so important as others that bore
upon the committee. In July last, however, the proposition
was referred to the consideration of the Finance Com-
mittee, to treat it upon financial views ; and, to enable
them to report thereon, they appointed a sub-committee,
of which the Town-clerk was a member, and after a long
and careful examination, on an average of the three last years,
they stated, as the result, that a surplus of £lO,OOO a-year
might be calculated upon. That being the case, the Town-
clerk then thought it necessary to give his opinion on that
report; for it appeared quite clearly that it was impossible
for the council to prosecute measures of improvement from
that source only, and some other mode was therefore neces-
sary to meet the expenses. It was thought desirable that,
when the necessity for additional expenditure arose, in the
accomplishment of desirable objects, they should be empow-
ered by parliament to borrow money in the way proposed by
the Town-clerk—away which was not likely ever to be abused.
In the first place, the object to be effected must originate
either with the council or be suggested by a committee ; if
the latter, then it must be brought before the council. In
the next place, when the application to be empowered to raise
the necessary supplies was determined upon, they would, as
in the case of reversions, have to stick up a notice in front of
the Town-hall, and no money could be borrowed unless the
Lords of the Treasury found there was no objection on the

part of the burgesses, after the notice had been posted up for
the space of a month. The council would perceive, therefore,
that the power sought was fenced in a very remarkable man-
ner. To guard against any possible abuse, no money was to
be borrowed unless the surplus funds were sufficient to pro-
vide the interest, as well as two per cent. for the repayment
of the principal. If these cardinal points were kept in view,
they would run no risk of injuring the corporate estate. The
question was one of great importance, and on the decision of
that day would depend whether Liverpool was to remain sta-
tionary, or go on advancing rapidly, but cautiously, to still
greater prosperity than it has yet obtaiffed.
Mr. JORDAN seconded the motion for the confirmation of
the report: ' `
Mr. Alderman EvAsrs quite admitted that the necessities
of the, corporation must be provided for in some manner'or
other. He conceived that the council might well be entrusted
with any power, however great, and on that account it had
never occurred to him to oppose their getting the powers
sought ; but he thought that it was incumbent on the council
to understand well what would be the operation of those
powers when they were obtained, and who they were that
the powers were to be ceded to. He had no doubt of the
sincerity of Mr. Currie, or of the integrity of the Finance
Committee ; but that integrity might not always last—they
might get interested men on the committee, who would have
property of their own, or of their relatives or connexions,
which they might wish toldispose of, or they might make use
of their influence to their own advantage, or they might be
weak men, who would yield to the applications of others,
and be made the scape-goats of persons anxious to get quit
of property, or of persons desirous to get hold of property.
Now, to provide against all this, he should wish that, although
they were to get these unlimited powers from parliament,
they should have an understanding, in the form of a bye-law
or rule of council, that none of the borrowed money should
ever be made use of except for great and needful purposes,
such as the widening of streets, alleys, or the construction
of markets. If they allowed any committee to have the
right of buying one house here and another there, the
money and property of the corporation would be dribbled
away. He knew, from the experience which he had on the
Market Committee, that the possession of any property
became an excuse for giving a high price for the adjoining
property, and, therefore, if the committee had the power
of buying where they chose, without any great leading check
on them, without any object sufficiently defined, or of such
magnitude as to warrant lt, the corporation would get an
interest over all the town, to its great disadvantage, and would
be carried on for minute objects instead of larger ones. It was
now the habit to talk of the wonderfully fine estate of the
corporation. He had heard it rated, in round numbers, at three
millions nett. Now, the income of the whole estate was
£130,000 a 'year, of which the town-clues yielded .£60,000 ;
therefore, the return on three millions' worth of fixed pro-
perty was £70,000. This was, not a return which should
induce them to go on increasing their landed or territorial
possesiions. Under that view, he disapproved of any pur-
chases being made beyond the strictest necessity. He agreed
in the principle of going to parliament ; but he did hope that
the council would afterwards, within itself, adopt some most
stringent measure to "confine purchases within their proper
limit, and to givis security, certainly not proposed as yet,
against the jobbing 'of interested, or the weakness of indo-
lent, persons on the Finance Committee, or whatever com-
mittee was to have the management of it.
Mr. Alderman SHEIL, after some prefatory remarks, said
it appeared that, after defrayingthe obligatory expenditure,
a surplus of £lO,OOO remained, to be devoted to the improve-
ment and increase of the corporate estate : but the mode
which had been hit upon to promote that increase seemed to
him quite an Irish one---namely, by subtraction. Mr. Evans
had correctly informed them that, in the report, the corpo-
rate estate was estimated at three millions, exclusive of the
debt, which, of itself amounted to another million. The
corporate estate was consequently four millions, and the
income derivable from it £130,000, being just 3+ per cent.
Well, the council, of course, wanted to increase the income,
and to add to the surplus revenue ; and to accomplish this,
the town-clerk had recommended them to borrow money at
4 per cent., to improve the town and to make investments.
That is, the estate had hitherto yielded 3+ per cent., and in
order to increase the return, they were asked to make pur-
chases at 4, and they would get back 31.• Then the report
proceeded to state that they must not lose sight of the inte-
rests of posterity. Posterity, it appeared, had an interest in
that £lO,OOO, and it was seriously proposed to secure it to
them by means of a sinking fund. The man who could pro-
pose a sinking fund in the present stage of society must have
strong nerves. The delusion attendant on such a scheme was
not innocent—it was not free from danger. It was through
the mystical operation of a sinking fund, which was ultimately
to clear off the national debt, that the government of this
country increased that debt to a fearful extent ; and it was
not till the whole thing had passed away—till its absurdity
had been demonstrated by mathematical reasoning, and the
expenditure brought down below the income—that any de-
crease was accomplished. In the same way, it was only by
keeping their expenditure below their income that the corpo-
ration could expect to hand down to posterity the present
amount of surplus, and a sinking fund on any other principle
than a surplus income, and paying off their debts, was mere
delusion. To illustrate the proposed plan of borrowing, he
would suppose that £lOOO were to be borrowed, and that two
per cent. per annum were to be appropriated towards its
repayment, as set forth in the report. This would be £2 the
first year, and £2 with interest and compound interest would,
in the seventh year, amount to about £24, in the fourteenth
year to £32, in the twenty-first to £44, and in the twenty-
eighth (by which time the present genhation of adults would
have nearly passed away), posterity would have to pay £6O.
The mode of taking care of the interests of posterity was
something like that before alluded to for increasing the in-
come by subtracting from it—it was leaving to them the
pleasure and qualification of paying. It would be more pru-
dent to go to parliament for power to raise money from time
to time, as the necessities of the' town might make it 'desira-
ble. This course would not be attended with any inconve-
nience, because they were continually going to parliament,
and the cost of any unopposed bill was not very great. He
should therefore move—" That the report of the town-clerk
be received, and that he be instructed to apply for an act of
parliament, empowering this council to borrow, on bond, a
sum not exceeding £50,000, to be applied to paying for the
site of the old fort, and to' such other purposes as this
council may be pieased to direct.
Mr. D. HODGSON said that he had no objection to second
the amendment, if no other member would. He quite agreed
with the chairman of the Finance Committee, that this should
•not be made a party question; but he thought that, for the
well-being of the corporate estate, the powers given should
be confined within the same limits that those persons ma-
naging their own estates were confined ; and that, when any
extraordinary occasion arose, requiring a sum in addition to
the usual income, that occasion should be made the subject
of a special discussion, so that they might not, by the facility
of borrowing money, expend the revenues of the estate by
anticipation. He did not think that they should be meddling
with £lO,OOO or £20,000 every year ; but when an occasion
arose that they wanted £lOO,OOO, let it be a subject of par-
ticular discussion, as in the present instance, and then they
might decide as to the best mode of raising the money.
Mr. Jons SMITH said that he did not coincide in the nar-
row view taken, as he thought, by Mr. Hodgson. If the
proposed powers were satisfactory to the council, he thought
they would ultimately, be to the advantage, of the estate.
Mr. T. BOLTON concurred in the opinions expressed by
Mr. Alderman Evans. He thought that they ought only to
borrow on occasions of importance, such as the erection of
docks, markets; or other public improvements. At the same
time, if they looked back to the practice of those who had
preceded them in the management of the corporate estate, it
would be apparent that if they had never bought a piece of
land until it was absolutely needed, the estate would not now
be so well off as it now was. If, for instance, the site of the
Princes' Dock had not been purchased until the dock was to
have been built, the corporation would have had to pay
some hundred thousand pounds' more than they did pay.
Again, if the land intended for new dock, to the west of
the Salthouse Dock, had now to be bought, would any
man say that it could be obtained for less than ten times its
original cost ? The policy of buying the Wallasey estate was
very questionable; but if they had waited till they had wanted
it, they must have paid a higher price ; and if ever they should
come to need docks there, the interest on the original outlay
-would be more than compensated by the difference between
the price paid and that which would have been demanded, had
they waited. Mr. Shiel had said that the estate yielded only
3+ per cent at the estimated value ; but it ought to be borne
in mind that the Cheshire estate did not bring in more than
lor per cent. Would any man say, however, that the fu-
ture value of that purchase was the sum which it had cost?
It was prospective, and not present income to which they
ought to look. Besides, occasions might arise in which cer-
tain property might be needed, and if they had always to wait
fer the process of applying to parliament, before the purchase
could be made, they would often have to pay double the sum
for which they might otherwise have obtamedit. He thought
that the public had nothing to fear from the borrowing of
money in the way recommended in the report.
Mr. T. CASE said that they were committed to the expen-
diture of £52,000, which was £40,000 more than the surplus
income, and that sum must therefore be raised. The ques-
tion of raising money had been discussed and authorised by
parliament, who had given them the power of borrowing on
mortgage ; but the question now was, which was the more
eligible of two modes, that which had already been sanctioned
by the legislature, or that proposed in the report. To him
it appeared obvious that the. corporation could with more
facility raise money by means of bonds than by mortgage,
and there would he the same checks in the former as in the
latter method. It had been well observed by Mr. Bolton,
that if the old corporation had not looked forward, the in-
come would never have been what it now was, and what hap-
pened before was likely to happen again. The wise foresight
exhibited in the purchases made years ago was the cause of
the progressive improvement in the estate, and on these
grounds he very much disapproved of the amendment, and
should vote for the original motion.

Mr. ItATHBONE thought that Mr. Evans had answered
himself. If he (the speaker) had understood him, the alder-
man seemed to.think that every pOwer might freely be given
to the council, but that committees were to be distrusted.
But, as he understood the matter, committees did nothing
unless they were 'authorised by the council, and the council
was responsible to the electors. He had so little confidence
in human nature that he would have every possible check;
but the committee, as had been deemed probable, could not
buy a small house here and there, for they could decide on
nothing of thfimselves. He looked upon the proposed plan
as a very admirable one.

Mr. isiAc liisLmEs said that he had yet to learn where
the surplus income was to borne from, although he was told
that there, in reality, was such a thing, and that it amounted
to £lO,OOO. -If they would look at the account published in
1838, they would find there a balance, in favour of the borough
fund, of £1?.4,411 ; in the present year, the balance amounted
to £63,777, leaving a difference of £60,635. He gave them
credit for the difference between the bonds discharged,
£57,820, and the bonds issued this year, £39,350, which
difference thus appeared to be £18,470, and he gave them
credit also for extraordinary payments for public improve-
ments, amounting to £40,671, making a total of £59,141 ;
but it must be recollected that there was an extraordinary
income for the present year ; they were to be debited with
£12,509 for the sale of churches, and £llO5 for reversions,
making together £13,614, which, being deducted from
£59,151, left a balance of £45,527. If to that sum were
added the balance of the present year, £63,777, it gave a
total of £109,304, showing that there had been an expendi-
ture this year of above £15,000 beyond the income. Where,
then, was the surplus fund obtained from, and how had they
a right to speak of building schools and observatories, seeing
that such things ought admittedly to be built out of a surplus
income only. As he had said before, he could never make
out where the surplus income came from. Yet there had
been, notwithstanding, a very great increase on what the old
corporation received. In 1839 the town dues amounted to
£63,269, whilst in 1834 they produced only £48,758, exhi-
biting an increase of £14,510. Then for fines and renewals
of leases there was received in 1839, £25,367—in 1834,
£17,256, showing an increase in the present year, as compared
with 1834, of £Blll. Adding the two items of increase
together, they made £22,620. That was the additional sum
received by the present as compared with the old corporation,
and for all that, he contended that they had expended £15,000
more than they had received.
Mr. BLACKBURN supported the original motion, as he
thought that the borrowing; of money on bonds would be
cheaper than if it were raised by mortgage, and would at the
same time be an accommodation to those who were able and
willing—of whom there were many—to lend small sums to
the corporation.
The TOWN-CLERK said that he rose, not for the purpose
of offering opinions, but to state some few facts on the sub-
ject under discussion. It had been said that the corporate
estate was worth four millions of money, and that it produced
a revenue of only £130,000, or £3} per cent. But the
calculation ought to be made, subject to the consideration
that there was one million, at least, of unproductive, yet
most valuable property, but for the productive period of

which they would have to wait. Calculating thus, there was
a return of .£4i per cent on the three million. The next
statement to which he should call attention was, that if the
council laid out money in purchases at £4 per cent., they
must have an act of parliament to provide that purchases
shall always yield £4 per cent. But a great part of the argu-
ment of Mr. Sheil fell to the ground, if the fair mode of
calculating the return was on the productive property, which
he had shown to be £4l per cent. He did not, however,
mean to say that investments should in all cases be made at
.per cent. It sometimes happened that they yielded a
great deal more, and when that occurred, there would be so
much actual gain to the corporate estate. Besides, they had
reason to expect that if purchases were made with caution,
the progressive improvement of the town would continue to
add increased value to them. Then they were told that
sinking funds were fallacious, and he admitted that they had
been proved to be so generally, even by every author from
whom he should produce an irresistible argument to show
that in the plan proposed in the report they were not so.
Hamilton, in his work on the national debt, said, " The
excess of income over expenditure is the only real sinking
fund by which a public debt can be discharged"—a proposi-
tion which entirely confirmed the propriety of the course
recommended. The town-clerk proceeded to comment on
the calculation of Mr. Sheil, who had begun by adopting
£l,OOO as its basis, contending that that calculation was in-
correct, and that in the twenty-eight years, posterity would
not have £6O, but £5O only to pay.
Mr. SANDBACU could not see that it would make any dif-
ference to posterity whether the debt was paid in twenty-
eight years by the annual setting aside of £2 per cent., or by
the payment from time to time, of a portion of the bond debt,
and by the latter method they would not be encumbered with
the useless machinery that appertained to the former. In the
raising of money, he did not wish to see any narrow limit
fixed, but such only as would extend to all contemplated im-
provements that prudence would dictate.
Mr. CURRIE having replied, the vote was taken on the
amendment of Mr. Sheil.

For it there appeared three, against it forty-eight. The
following is a list of the voting :
For the amendment—Councillors D. Hodgson and R. Glad-
stone. Alderman R. Sheil.

Against it—Councillors J. Holmes, G. Quayle, W. Thorn-
hill, Isaac Holmes, R. Houghton, W. Preston, T. Case, H.
R. Sandbach, B. Frankland, J. Barton, H. Holmes, T. Bol-
ton, J. Priestley, W. Rathbone, H. Hornby, R. V. Yates,
J. Cooper, T. Robinson, J. N. Wood, C. Bushell, T. Black-
burn, R. Rigby, E. Segar, T. Coglan, R. Jones, jun., G. H.
Lawrence, J. Smith, J. Platt, W. M'Kee, F. Jordan, W.
M. Duncan, W. W. Currie, D. Mather. Aldermen—T.
Booth, J. Hornby, It. Roskell, Leathom, G. Holt, C.
H. Jones, R. Benn, W. Earle, J. Moon, E. Evans, T. B.
Barclay, T. Bulley, W. P. Freme, E. Harvey, the Mayor.
The original motion was then adopted without opposition.