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London, England, 1817-05-13 00:00:00

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.134RLIIMENI ART PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OP LORDS, MAY i

Lord HOLLAND, seeing the NobirSccreUry of State In bis
place, adverted c 6 his intention of moving for the prikluct.un of
the Correspondence between certailvviviting Niagistratea of site
County of Becks anti the Noble Viscount. lie meant not now
to bring it forward, but gave notice that he should so move on
an early day.. He would bow. however, ask the Noble Sette-
es:l, whether the os currency he alluded io bad taken place?
Viscount SIUNIOU replied in the altsnative.
Lord HOLLANJ wished to L.4104', whether certain (perks
bed sot been put by those Magistrates to the Noble Secretary
of Statti

Viscount SIDMOU TN sold, Out some questions hail cc:-
',Maly bra' put to lam by the vLatiog Magutrates allulr.l to;
but tLry were duly cowered by Lim.

CATHOLIC QtY3STION.

The Earl of DONOLJGHMORE restated his in-
tention to move that the Petitions, which be had re-
cently presc:ted from the Iri.h Cathnlics, should be
taken into consideration on Friday nest. _

£:!r1 FITZWILLIAK presented a Petition from
a number of the Catholic inhabitants of the Conntic..s
of Warwick aid Stafford, which being read, appeared
to be against the enactment of any I.4slative regal-
idiom on the subj:et of the C atholic Claims, and
establishing the twaiiive of the Pao, as militating
against the principles of their religion.
The Noble Earl took occasion to remark, that this
Petition by no means met the concurrence of the
great portion of the English Catholics.
Lord KEN V ON, (teeming such a serious difference
of sentiment to be an important consideration, moved
that the Petition, with the names of the subscribers
thereto, be printed.
Earl GREY deprecated such a proceeding; the
more so, as it was not likely the measure cuntem
plated by the Petitioners would be cent up from the
other House. The Petition, it was avowed, did not
speak the general sense of the English Catholics, who
did not mean to present any new Petition to Parlia-
ment this year, as they hail, formerly declared their
steady adherence to their last Petition. He adreited
to the approaching general discussion of the subject,
which would be the regulation for Noble Lords to
deliver their sentiments.
The LO RD CHANCELLOR stated, there eras
no instance upon the Journals eat a Petition to that
House being printed. and observed; that it was ibe
iesclvAive proViace of the Legislature, to considir

CIRCULAR LITTEn .•1? ViscntisT SIDMOUTIL •
BIT' GREY i,se to tiring forward his ptombied
motion relative to tt.is subject, observine, that what
he h•nl to subniit to the cue-'fferation of the-flotliei
thiitigh merely a ' ^sl question, was one which in-
' volved pointi et .. gree.,..st constitutional
intpyr-
tance, as seriously . acting t! ^ freedom of the Press;
and the per:a:nil freedom cif indleicluals. Ile regret.
tad, that wit's reference to tonics ot this kind, the
character of Petliament had niateriell: changed from
whit h formerly was : late yr'ars it seemed more
anxious to add io the peer awl influent of the
Crown, the increase of the Revenue; and of the mili-
tary forte. Adverting no the particular subject of
discussioriehe said that the opinion of his Pintj-sty's
Law (Veers: as referred to in the Citadel. Latter of
! the Nebie Visceunt ('1 ieneuth), had very prnpilly
been consehunieated-to the House s but he weufd hOeir
trfove, in ceder to rerneolcee der comenenic..ticen that
a • • •.
stetemeet of the m case upon which that oteeo was
founded, should also he Lil beiore nheh Lnrcisliera
in order to thew upon what ground such opiniarnmes
called for, and if the reai case was fatrly brought be-
tore the Lew OilLe:s of the Crown. He had to ie.
crest the must serious are roue of flail; Lordilipi ft;
whet wentlif transpire is the di cession; ash aver eve-
*time the fenndetion of some future propositirn to
be submitted. The preceeding which gave rise to
the present motion, he could not but regard as a moat
extranr4inery proCedure on the rat af the lexecittire
Government, as directly itistinctiug the Magistrates
as to the performance of an important port of their
jedicial duty. As the Noble Earl proceeded is his
discusiinn, he referred largely, anJ read Copious lie
tracts (rem the writings and dethiens of the most
established English law authorities; tee get eral drift
of his legal argument being to establish, 11 at the or.
dinary Magistrates cr Justices of the l' ace, poeutesed
no such lenaf power, as they were escurind to be
recital with in the Circular Letter of the Noble Secre-
tary el :jtate. Even' from the opinion referred to it-
4eelf, -it ap?ceted that, previously to the 431 of alb
King, them were stung doubts as to the esistence of
such a legal power teen in a Judge. He felt war.
ranted in contenefinn, that the Act in qinetion did
not give such a power generally to the Judges, and
still more, he must protest aEein t the extetence of
such a 1.731 power as was claimed generally for all
Justice of the Peace, to dceide what was or teas not
a libel (Whiefi was the most di:Keith point in the
whole system of the law), and upon their opinions of
the Cases, to exact bail Irons any Man who was cone
cet nut in the publiCatiens in'eoestinn. lie had nfe
. difficulty in stating, from the Lest exemination•
was able to give to all the great lies..iftithoritike o
-the melte), that be einditintufftnetienyseeirptiat4-eiiil
6:way stated, as that now claimed for Nrstines of t!-is
Peace. No power of tee ;lied was it.fertabie front
the letter of the commission of a Juitice of the Peace.
In the opinions of Lord Coke, no such po creme
delegated to Magistrates, even on suspicion
of felony itself ; as it usUit.ited agaiiist Magna Chem.
The authorities of Htweies, Cinch Justice Hale, and
Mr. Jastice Bleck. tene, e: ere more or less to the satin'
effect ; in their opinions, the power of these ielegita
times was expreslly limited to cases of felony, trea-
son, and breach of the peace. The sentiments of the'
last mentioned were in tact an extension of the opinion
of Serjeant Hawkins up :n the point. In the opinion
of Cinef Justize Huh, the powers of those Magis,
crates, even in cases et Tre ,on, were not gieen.
to them by Statute, but by the Common Law, as au,
thorised Conn rretors of the Peace; and L.rd Coke
seemed to entertain a similar opinion. But the Noel.
Lord dwelt with most force and at greater length on'
the consideration of the celebrated proceedings which
took place before Leird Cemden, in the case of Mr.'
Waken The decieian of that most teemed and re.;
vered Lawyer was, he contended, in tttpport of what'
he advanced, though the case respected a warrant of
the Secretary of State. The au:limey ut Lord Mare,
field also, in c:rtain cases to ...Lich he teterred, was•
in furtherance of his arge rneet. lit this pert of the
discussion, the Noble E‘rl d stinguisisetl between the
powers vested leg,:lly and constimtionalli in a Secre.•
:ary cf State, and those leegt d in au erelinary Justice
or the Peace ; and seemed le acinnt, that in the for-
mer these po.vers were vested which were naw as,
eumed to be vested in the superior Megistrate and
he descanted on the uifyinilty io levity deciding
upon cases of libel, shift: seer:: eademtourri to tae
nmplitied and defined by the adinireble Bill of slue
Right Hon. Friend of his (Mr. tea), the greatest
Layer, of an uneducated main he ever knew, and'
which was most ably supported ty hie Noble Friend
(Lord Ertkine) then present; :eel he int:Dared the
House not to lend its sanction to a new and anoma-
lous power in the law, so danger ius to indiricheile,
' and eventually dangerous to the State itself, The
cases referred to of Spence and Hogg, he argued
laid no foundation whatever for the opinions *de
wanted by' the Noble Secretary of State, and so far
'from the Court of King's Bench appearing in favour
'of the proceeding, the contrary seemed to have bans
the tact. The opinions given by the Law Servan,s
of the Crown, couid not, he thought, be withnet
'some degree of bias on their minds, and those opie
nions ought to be appreciated by their Lordship.. .In-.
dependently cf the oojectionab e considerations in St
legal view of .the can:, such an interference on the
part of the Executive Geternment. to ielluence the
administration at justice, oaght seriously to he depre-
cated. The whole presented a case of a cloigerous.
and unconstitutional nature, and in deciding upon ita•
their Lordships should cerium:ly consider its probable
consequences, either with a view to the eventual
etrieecotneit
overgrown
hand,utigh bare en the conduct of the people on
power
ut I:ilti.eco,4lvheireeminntieot,rezgathseizicigte tits
overgrown
a power in its hand:, not a tilde pet ticipstine; f;t. the

"greeter of a military despotism. After aptdogieing
a the House for his long detention, the Noble Lord
cif scd a short hnt glum( peroration, by moving,
•s That 3 Copy of the Ca•r, upon which the opinion
of his Majesty's LAW (Nicer% referred to in the Cir•
cnlar letter of Vincula! Sedmouth was given, be laid

before the House."
Lord ELLENBOROUGH could ass ele their
Lordships. notwithstanding the research wit had
• been manifested by the Noble Earl, that the autho-
rity given to Magistrates respecting libels, had met
with the fullest and most impartial investigation, and
was built upon such a foundation, that he had To
hesitation in saying. that it was perfectly legal. The
, tweetion was, whether a Justice of the Peace might,
hold•to bail upon 4 case ef a libel ? and this he was
Certain Justices were completely.authorized in doing.,
' Taking for the grounds of his opinion, the grave and
• venerable authorities which had. in several instances i
• been adduced even by the Noble Eat' himself*. he
' could not doubt but that it would be taloned. (tat
, the opinion was as well .founded as it could be.—
First, he should ?der to the respectable authority ef
. my Lord ,liale, who had stated, that. Justices of the
Peace might issue slow warrants for the apprehension
of persons charged of climes within the cognizance
of the Sessions, and binding them over to keep the
peace, &c. Now if any person should take that pas-
sage of his Lordship's opinir,n and read ir, what con-
clusion would they come t•.? Certainly. that a libel
. was an offence cognizable by the Sessions. He should
then refer to the very same authority which had been
quoted by the Noble Earl, Hawkins's !'leas of the
Crown. There it was stated, that a Magistrate
might convict for high treason, for a breach of the
. peace, &c. Nov, what was a libel ? Thous;ii nut
a forcible breach of the peace, it was evidently a
. breach of the peace by act and in reality. The only
. question seemed therefore to be, and that was what
would never fors moment be doubted, whether libel
,was an offence coming under the cognizance of the
Quarter Sessions? Lord Camden, it thoroughly exa-
mined, would be found also to be i rally in authority
'infavour of the power being granted to Justices; for
he stated such offences to be under the cognizance of,
Conservators of the Peace. What would the country
'do without some such power as that which had been
,given to Magistrates ? Were persons to be allowed
;to disturb and inflame the public mind for many
;months without being brought to justice, or ',idiom
,a chance of their being for some considerable time
,weyeuted from publishing seditious libels. The coun.
try would not be secure without some such mode of
protection, and tie wondered that any Noble Lord
.could for a moment even imply any citing against
such a.power. It was a necessary power which the
country required for its good government. and if
there had not been Such authority:for such a power
to Magistrates, he would not have thoeyht that House
,ustified in adjourning even a single day without pass-
ing some Bill for granting such a power. With re,
apect to Mr. Wilkes's case, he should say a word
_upon what had been dropped by the Noble Earl. It
had been said that that Gentleman had not been
;guilty of a breach of privilege of Parliament; and
,why? because what he ,had been guilty of did not
amount to an actual breach of the peace, but it had
never been stated that Mr: Wilkes ought not to be I
held to bail &Vas libel. With all the authorities which
he bad stated, with the authority of Hale, Lord
Camden, Mr. fserjeant Hawkins, and with the num-
ber of witnesses in the recognizance: which he had
produced, for so long a period, he could not help
declaring it as his opinion, that there was a very
great foundation for the opinion which had been
stated. and he conceived it the most necessary and
the most beneficial measure, that in the present times,
could have been adopted. •
Lord E RS KIN.E No question, he was persuaded,
could. more deeply interest the public, than the one
w before their LOrdships. He had listened with
ioor
e deepest and most tespecdul attention to the Noble
d who had just sat down, and whom he was
happy to call his-Nobly Friend. Yet he felt himself
bound to differ on public rounds from the Noble and'
/Learned ,Lord,iifthe views he had formed respecting
the acts in question ; and he was sure, while he so
differed, he had the testimony of the Noble Lord
who presided in that House, that he did so differ, for-
merly, on Constitutional grounds. For the. Noble
tord on the Woolsack. and the Noble Lord who
presided in die Court of King's Bench, no man could
feel more respect and esteem than be did, but yet he
had a public duty to perform which absorbed every
private consideration. At the time when the French
ltevolution broke out, the number of libels in this
country was very great, and in fact the country was
almost inundated with diem, and at that time many
trials, it was well koown, took place at the Old Boa
ley on the subject, and also elsewhere. If the law.
was clear about these libels, why bad measures to
prevent tbeM not been adopted Sheaf He had bad
the honour to be Counsel in Several of these cases,.
and he had found, from his experieoce, that much
good might *infected in this point of view. He
thought that there existed too Much ditpeatine tQ
void the common law, which he certainly considered
amply. ufficient. The Noble Loyd at the head of
the . Home Department had declieed to wilts. this
letter. till,he had the opinions of the Law. °Seers
Why, in truth, had he declined to do so ? Why had
It:, on these opinions of the Law Officers, called Mar
gistrates to du their duty ? Why had. he instigated
mein by this truly singular letter to look into autho-
tides, .and to hold the accused •to bail? No Judge
. could say, what was libil or Dot, unless a.Jory gave
it in their verdict as such, and therefore he perfectly
agreed with his Noble Friend in the vsews.he took of
the whole case. While he was at the Bar, there
was no such custom as holding to bail for this Offence.
. The LORD CHANCELLOR had no dia I cu ty
ip'sayiog that the Noble Mover had argued the -sub-
ject- very learnedly, but still he.could not agree with
his doctrines.—Many of the subjects had been held
,Nisaill for libels; it unjustly held they had.tbeir ac-
• epos against the individuals who so held them. He
therefore uttered his protest against being supposed
. tef give opinions' which-he might have held formerly;
hp slut' liras to give the opinions which be at present
entertained t if they ware iron. he should be happy
to retract them. Much bad -he'll said. about the in-
terference of the Secretary of State. Why did the
Noble Earl forget that in 1793 and l 7 Q 4 a Pifoirlii-
Mat n was issued, calling upon the Magistrates to
attend to publications of a seditious tettsleliq. which

in those years rose to I reit height t Wash not,
he would ask, tire ditty of the Attoraey-Oteneral to
exercise the authority with which he .was intested,
and to use a strong hand in repressing blasphemous
and seditious libels, tending to subvert the Govern-
meafe,of the Country. With respect to tie opinions
of Atte.rnies General, would Noble Lords say that
such men ae Mr. Northey, Lord Raynwind, Sir Dud-
ley Ryder, Lord Mansfield, none of them tontemp-
tittle Lawyers, though compared with the Tyros of
the present day of ten or fifteen years standing,
.were not •of some authority ?—these able Lawyers
were all of opinion the practice of comtn:tting before
information was legs!. The Noble and Learned taunts
read several cases'in pods, from•the time of Queen
Anne, to shew that invariably eeisons charged with
blasphemous and seditious libels were liable to ap
prehension. Among others, in the reign of Geo. 1.1
a man named Thomas Paine, had three distinct libds
charged against him. The question of to-night was,
not what the law ought to be, but what the law really
is? The Noble Lord observed, that lie had taken an
attire part in public life, but if in retirement, in the
decline of life, he should think that he had been the
means of abridging the liberties of his fellow subjects
he should feel much regret ; but he could say, mrot
conscientiously, that in all the prosecutions, which
in the discharge of his duty he had instituted, he had
been atilt rte.' solely bya desire to preserve the country.
Lord HOLLAND supported the motion of his
Noble Friend, and contended for the necessity of pro-
ducing the paper called for. A great deal had been
said upon the law, in answer to the statement of his
Noble Friend, but he must maintain that the autho-
rity of Lord Camden was far beyond the opinions of
any Attorney or Solicitor General. It was well
known that on many occasions these Gentlemen had
fought to support inftingements on the Constitution ;
therefore it wouli not avail to place suck men in op-
position to the great text writers. He enforced the
authority of Lord Camden, to shew that the Magis-
trates were not vested with the power contehded for.
Lord Viscount SIDMO,UTH said, that it was in
consequence of the vast number of seditious and
blasphemous publications circulated by itinerant ven-
ders. the Magistrates had applied to him, and he had
taken the opinion of the Law Officers. On that opi-
nion he had written the Circular in question, and he
watt induced to do so, from a desire to preserve the
peace of the country. which was endangered by these
venders, who bid defiance to the Magistracy, telling
them that they could not touch them till the Sessions,
and therefore they would go en disseminating their
poison. .With resnect to the opinions, they were
clear, without the Production of the case ; and there-
fore seeing nn necessity for laying it before the House,
he should object to the motion.
The Bishop of CHESTER, alluding to what had
Wien from hem on a former night, stated the Noble
Earl had misrepresented him.
Earl GREY contended that nothing the two Noble
and Learned Lords had said convinced him that this
law was incorrect, for nothing so jejune he had ever
before*heard. l• He had," to use the words of Fal-
staff, " asked for twenty-one yards of satin, and they
had come to him with security."—(Hear,lsear).—He
protested strongly against the opinions of the Law
Officers of the Crown being taken on the Ala, in
preference to the decision solemnly given of the best
Judges of the land. He contended against the mo-
dern practice of• considering all danger to be apps
hended from power, and not as emanating from it.
The question was, whether or nor, in attempting to
stop blasphemy; the Noble Lord had not created the
existence of a danger which the country feared might
tentl to infringe the Constitutional rights of the People?
The Noble Earl adverted to the proceedings at Nor-
wich, in which the Steward (Mr. Anderson) had
'directed the Grand Jury to enquire whether Secret
Societies had not been held in that City? The Grand
Jury did make diligent enquiries, and 'they unani.
mously returned their presentment—that no such
existed in that City. Alluding to the prosecution
against Mr.. Hone for the blasphemous parodies on
the Benedicite Veld a eater, Bce. he observed, that the
Anti-Jacobin, in 1799, published something similar:"
containing blasphemous language ; and he hoped, if
prosecutions were to be tarred on, the authors of
this blasphemy, though written to serve a Political
party, would be prosecuted, *halter they were in the
Cabinet or not.—(Hear, Hear.)
The House then divided—Contents, 19 —Non-Con-
tents, 75—Majority against the Motion, .56.
Adjourned at Halt-past Twelve o'Clock.
HOUSE OF COMMONS. •
11DINIVIGU Ara OLAIICOW CANAL.
- - •

The Right Hon. W. UUNUAS moved the r.cond reading of
the 'Edinburgh and Glasgow Canal Bill. The Bill, im Ms opi-
nion, would confer many advantages upon two of the greatest
towns of beaked: -.liven admitting that some private property
may be injured by it, that did not touch the.priecipie of the
Bill. Inlese he convinced that the Committee would give
ample satisfaction to all whose print. property was. concerned,
be ;book!, orberwsae oppose the Bill. The nitasere,-if citrikkdI
into effect, would give employment to at least 1,500 persons.
Sir 0t43.1i.14K opposed the hill. It had been thrown out two
&Woos:bath us* the second reading,' and he would oppose it
hoW upon die monlogrounde as beigff then— This, Canal would
have the effect of depriving many manufactories •wassr, with.
out giving any lodemilification for the'iujury. As to the belief
supply of Oak; one of the results promised Own the Bill, Edits:.
burgh Sad no anodes for it. There was no city more plentifully
'supplied with that &stick at a cheap rate. They bid them from
10e. to iSs. per ton. k cool" be no.advantage-to the poor in the
Way of labour, for it was dinkuk eftn at present to procure la-
bourers. He would therefore move, that the Bill be read a se-
good tinictlial day Na moods.
Sir ItONAI4) FfiRGUSON seconded the motion.
Lord A. fiAMILTON and Sir J. MARJORIBANKS sup-
ported the Bill.
Mr. G. ROSE thought, that wily objecdons to the Bill might be
conceded to the I..kinunittee. He had no Muswiedge of the par-
ties. hoe as:it.sepuld,,in his opinion, be very beneficial to two
great cities, he would vote for the second readiugrif it.
Lord illoiNitiG bad heard, that the city of Edlubergh war
ht Ant.diepused to oppose the Bill, but that they were now in•
dined to .withdraw their opposition upon certain conditions.
liwee.cooditioos, however, could not now appear in she pill,
nor wits k certain that the Hoops would agree to them if pro.
?media a separate measure. The Canal, according to the pre-
sent plen. would not come witlda two miles of Edinburgh, and
k• could not be brought up completely to that city without a bent
of A 75,000 liapimupter Bills.-(Hear)—He would therefore • op-
pow the NIL
Mr. J. P. GRANT puppet:id the Bin. k would be the means
of procuring a supply of water for Edinburgh, wbfcl was at pro.
tent Very mach waned: • •
The House then diiided op the second reading of the mu..."
Per it. 139—Against it. 63--" Majority, 76.-110 lidb was thebs
read& second time.

STATIC PaIIIONSRS.
• Mr. ROBERT GORDON asked whether any
interference had taken place on the part of the Secre-
tary of Sate for the Home D9r4stalcut on the sub

led of the tttatment of the*State'Prisoners conEned
at Reading ? •
• Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON replied, that three
weeks ago a communication had been ntscle to the
Magistrates of Reading on the subject to which the
question of the Hon. Gentleman referred. In con-
sequence of a circular letter from the Secretary of
State, a string of questions had been sti.t to the Se-
cretary of State on the 22d of April, to which an•
swers were sent en the following day. Amor:;.T these
questions were those referred to by the [-lon. Genti,-
man (Mr. Gordon,) on Friday, and to them, as well
as to the others, answers were given. It was now
open for the Hen. Gentleman to take that nurse on
the subject which he thought most wort- ; hut he
(Mr. Addington) would only observe, that he was
at a loss to know • how any sort or imputation could
be cast upon the Secretary of State. At the same
time le did not wistt to be understood to say any'
.thing with the view of deterring the Hon. Gentle.
man from adopting any course which he might deem
proper. to the matter alluded to, his Noble. Rat-
tiun Lad been guided by the most ur:(!frobted pr.rce-
dents, and where any doubt arose as to a more tigo-
riAs or mere lenient ccurse, the mere lenieht Was al-
ways adopted.
Mr. 1/AOI:CHAN! wished to know whether, in
coo:ego:Axe of any inquiries which the lion. Gentle.
man opposite had made as to those prisoners, he had
heard that a petition which one of those prisoners
had given' o the jailor to be forwarded for the pur-
pose of being presented to this House, had never
reached the quarter for which it was addressed, or
whether this petition had since been heard of ?

Mi. HILI.;.Y ADDINGTON understood that a
petition had been directed to the Honourable asid
Learned Member (Mr. Brougham) but had Leen re-
ceived by him.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that the petition in wits-
lion had been given to the jailor, directed to him ( Mr.
Brougham) or, indeed, in justice to the jailor of Rea-
ding, he ought to say, that he understood it was be.
fore the' prisoners arrived at Reading (while (hey
were at Manchester) that this took place.
Lord FOLKSTONE wished to know whether
the circular letter, mentioned by the Hon. Gentle-.
man (Mr. Hiley Addington) was that on the subject
of blasphemous and seditioul publications, or some
other different letter He understood that &linty
Jaili were entirely tinder the management of. County
Magistrates, and could not understand what right the
Secretary of State had to interfere upon that subject.
He hoped the circular letter referred to by the Hon.
Gentleman would be produced.
Mr. B. BATHURST said, that it was easy to see
that the crircular referred to by his Hon. Friend was
not that on the subject of seditious and blasphemous
publications. The Noble Lord was completely mis-
taken in supposing that the Secretary of State had no
right to interfere as to the management of the Jail,
as he would find by referring to the Act of Parlia-
Sent Oa the subject.