Star.
London, England, 1829-04-09 00:00:00

•
the Orion ezercisingthe duties4dlfit Minister of the
Crovin, hicb would obviate ad the objections, and to-
mote ill the apprehensiuoi expressed by Noble
.Lords
from lbe gaJingled ffilleliff of the Bilk But althotigh
he telt it flit duty to state a much, he begged leave to
say drat it was got ks intention to oltject to themeasure
recommended, as it had been. by the gracioni Speech
deliiered on the part of his Majesty et the commence-
meat of the present Session of Parliament. Their Lcrd-;
ships would recollect that at an early period of the
Session he had said that he would adopt the line he
was sow pursuing respecting the details of the measure
so recommended, having at that very time had a perfect
conviction on hit mind that the admission of Catholics
to seats in Parliament would torus part of such mea-
sure, and that the Catholics, without such a concession,
would not be sad.fied. He wished to be understo4
not to mean to impute to Catholics any but the, most•
loyal and worth* motives in:their desire for admission
to the enjoynsett of the privileges of the Constitution
He should notutherefote, support the amendment, el.'
though he confessed he should have been better Otis-
fted—and he was convinced that so would the country'
at large--if the office he had referred t!) were excepted.
At the same time he trusted that no mischief would
ensue. con-anceal, as he was that no Roman Catholic
would accept the office of First Ministeref. the Crown
who did not feel that be. enjoyed and deserved the con
Silence of his Sovereign and oltheeotintry. •
• • • 4, til
-The Marquis of LANSDOWN sud :there was,up
ollietr irk the ad miniiiration of the country caPed Pr!"
Ministerhand contended .that nothing could be more
Mischielpusehan the creation of suchn en, office. If
the amendment was eartitaii'viinild go to preaent:the
King's taking the advice of any of his Majestyis
ters of ishom he most approied ; for it was perfectly
competent to his Majesty at irii diy'to take the *advice
of any one of his Councillors, without reference to the
-office held by Such Councillor,
.whether that of Com:
ririssioner;of Woods and Forests or any other. So long,
therefore; as one office of "Privy Councillor should be
left, open to getholics. so long would it be in the power'
of his Majesty to make that individual Premier in point
of fact. 'For these reasons he trusted their Lordships
would concur with him in opinion that no good could
arise f om the proposed amendment.

Tt.e Duke of WELLINGTON had not intended to
trouble their Lordships slith his sentiments on the clans,
under con;ideratiln ;• but out of *respect and considera-
tion for the *opinion of the Noble Duke (Rutland) he
should add that the 'object which he proposed to attain
' was ensured by two clauses that Would be found fuither
on in the Bill—ode Of which went to transfer all chinch
patronage from the hands of any Catholic, who by vir-
tue of office or otherwise might become possessed of it,
to the Archbishop of Canterbury—the other by.render-
ing the exercise of any Stich 'patronage by aleithblic
punishable by the forfeiture of all ;Sees held by such
Catholic. • Now, if no such Mischievous pose's as that
apprehended could be exercised by a Russian* Catholic,
he was lure their Lordships 'wised not say that the.pro-
posed amendment ought to be wdoßted. Rot in. truth
there *is ho such office as that of Prime Minister: The
dutiei of such ad Office might be voted. in atijodeor
other of his Majesty's official advisers or •Priii Council-
lors ; and •he was quite 'convinced that them' was no
mode of I.teventing) the administration of church ,pro-
petty, except in the Wanner provided by subsequent
clauses of the Bill. ":
Lord PA RN HA whiled to know. was the appointment to,
any atomism in the Calseial -Churdi Vended byley-reibessible
Minister? • .. . . .
Lead BATHURST replied in the ailrispgitip. MOWN' for
the Colonies always retonteamaded these appointments 'nada II&
jesty, and was responsible for such advice. •
Lord KENYON. after what hod been called by Stella Lit*s
aboodd not give their Loedakipe the trouble of &Wines kit pro-
posed amendment. Nothing could Are. him more pleasure chap
that the Noble Duke himself should take up the matterkeediput it
into such a &ape as wield be mast applicable to the am. He
would recommend, in additkorthat the aloe of • Ceinniandet•lb-
Chief or General commanding the forces should also be esceped.
The anseedmetit was then put. and negatived,, and the anginal'
clause agreed to : in were the two following clauses. .
The clause which " provided against thb elerelie'ol the power to
nominate ecelealintical preferments by Catholics" bevies been read.
Lord FARNHAM retested to the danger (bit might
result from the application by Catholics of futidstert to
Protestant Institutions. Their Lordships west •aware'
that many great public officers (the Judges, for exacts•
pleh for the time being, were in many instances made
the trustees of bequests for Protestant %shoots., Stich,
indeed, was the case refresh% a way extensive cha-
rity (called « Morgan's Charity."')' neiteDidilin;
trustees for which, under the will of the .founder.
were the Archbishop of Dublin. the Chief ;Justices
Of the King's Bench and • Common Pleas, the Chief.
Baron, and the Lord Mayor for the time beihg
Now, as the Bill would go to ren.!et Catholics eligible.
to those office.. it might possibly occur that Catholics
would became the trustees of that chancy (which sup.
ported a male and a lemale school), and hue, the dis-
posal of its fund,. He did not mean lo denylltheanj
trustee who should misapply charity funds.waseritenable
to the Court of Chancery ; but in the cases to which he
retested, the trustees having not only the management
of the funds but the apps isitment of the masters of the
schools emu tad In them, they mist C. try -a little in-
genuity, procure the mis-aisplication trf theluilds, and sett
the same time keep out-11 view of the Court nf'iiq-
cery. He shOuld therefore plopse a clause to pieiritt
any versos) rofessiug the Roman Catholic .ielieina.,
tons having the ashusnistrottest of the fundief Peewit:
taut iiistitutions.
Lord PLUNKETT said, At amendment of the Rebil4erti
war like many other amendnitets that had bees yropovellifoilieda4
Go a most improbable, trait Impossible. Case- To suppee• ,
soy' Awned individuals eligible its the trust referred se
hoes* as argument Tinian &slink the appnitteseot, et '• AI
those elevated situktioni hr 'Shan to that pat tinslai
remainder of the Noble Lord'. argument he had tieggW4
by contening that the trustees were amenable to the i
Chaiscery-
Lord FARNHAM repeated, has k was not against tisi Siecir.l
fence of open but of coven practices that be wisheatte itevithe.
The Noble Lord then prOpeutd as ameadment aria the eir"
clubfoot of Mamas Catholics from the management of schools' pad
other charitable institutions, designed by their founders ler • the
bsnelit of Protestants only.
The amendment having been pet was aegativeL
After a few obsetvations arum die hied of Haameelon. the oat
clause was agreed to without comment.
tln the nem name to present Catholics from riving any advice
on
appointment* to eeeksketical sakes in the United Church of
Haiku" and Ireland,
Lord TENTRIMEN reposed. as an amendment, that the
words •, Protestant Church should be inserted instead of " United
Church of England and Ireland," winch he thought might be talies
to 'anode prefeemeots in the Colonies.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that the weeds of the
Rause included preferments and eftliniestical dignitaries m the
Colonies u well as at home. The united Church of England asd
Ireland Was the sense agile world over:

Lord TlCtratit DIN then withdrew his ansindossst. :1
The closes reversing the admission of Roams chtimilihr 4.
races in Corpora ions. the period within, which the odflikwwe t•
be taken. and that horning a peaky of 101)1. for ant tains the
oaths, were then read and agreed to.

Us the eldese,pruviding tist, she, tbe passing oftbh Att. bo
ostiisebould be takes' by Catholics hioldiuy real propettlbeles read.
Lesd FARNHAM sdid, that it eta aa.abstrillty En Wake a part
the Aet cornmesce before the cetnetesiterinnil •of hs'eporstkes.
/which another dame declared sliesid be nib days after its pods.
He should propose that the words of the ekes, should be " after
the etionienerinent" litigant of dun %be passing et this Aet.•_ •
After a few weeds tresstbe.,Dbke of Wassiseross, Lord. P#vii.

I ewer, aid Ldit Trani nen. on the unhisportstsce of she variation
in the &germ damn. Lord PatlltAll withdrew his ellesorhotel.
sod the shun wu thee speed to.
On the doom prevailing the ossomptiol of dig den of the
Dignitaries of the Ritiblislisd alert* by the Relnan•Cati 41,
Priesthood being read. • .
The slash of NOUNTCASHRL said that tiler, was so pro-
vided to prevent the tithes liking Oven,' the Codbolicapbstbood.
Leah bright be directed to the. styling thesis Lord Bishop,
Grope. Re:- He amid, therefore, owe that there be -added to
,the sod of the clause a provision waking it s soisdeinesnoutr in soy
permit to address it Catholic priest by any of the titles of the Rao-
Mislaid Church. •
The Rut of MALIIRSBURY said, that llama' it me ap-
posed to the Bill, yet, it it me paw. he thought it should he with
as few restricting as piresibk that gave ais real security. New. be
thought the peewee dame offered an mirky. and would merely
teed to hove* that inisadee it was an desirable to sewage. Rather
this° than snood the assemble's, he should vote for suiting out
the clause altogether.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he could not
support 'the amendment. but begged to say a few words
on the clause itself. It was certainly no +cavity. but it
would site satisfaction to the united Church of Eng-
land and Ireland. In 1794 a law was passed which
prevented Catholic priests assuming the titles of the
E.tablished Cam!) ; but that law was repealed by the
Act-of 1795, and since then the assumption of these.
tides had increased. According to the law of England,
the tide of a diocese belonged to pet sons appointed to it
by his Majesty; but it was desirable that others ap-
pointed to it by an assumed authority should be dis
pontoon's-teal, tad that nas the reason why the claw,
bras introduced, This was one of the instances which
shifseldtose difficult it was to legislate upon this stab-
jeer at He Wilt AWN, abet. this clan.. gave oo
security to she Established Churchb.nor steengthened.it
in any way. but i; as insetted to give satisfaction t.i
Oe minds of those who, were disturbed by this assorts's.
i6n Of title by tiii/tiihoffe Clergy.
•the Bishop of DURHAM said that, in his cipliiion,
the clause did not touch 'tit" evil. The constitution 14
the Catheic Clergy in Ireland was perfectly unique. for
it tient peripassa with the Protestant Establishment.
-having Bishop b e Bishop, Archdeacon far Archdeacon.
and Incumbent for Incumbent: Now. the Roman Co
tholic Laity must tnow very well that these could
not be two Incumbents in one parish, or two Bishops
in one diocese. There could be no doubt then which,
with -the principles they professed, would be cone a.
dared the interloper. The opinion of the Catholic PI.•
hoes themselves might be judged of from the f .ca that
they contrived on their appointment t.• get into the
Cathedral, nu, taking, as it were, a corporal posses-
sion.similar to that of the ordination of our Bishop..
It was quite clear from this that they meant (when an
opportunity presented) to transfer the teffiposali Ws of
the Church of England to their own Clergy. Why the
Chinch of Rome was placed in a different state in this
country from what it was in Ireland he (the Bishop
Durham) was ac Moss to conceive. In England the
Roman Catholic Bishops were said to be in partiows,
and they found no inconvenience in the di-cionge r f
their duties from the fact of not having their names
connected with Bishopricks in this county. He was now
desirous to say a word about what had been yesterday
stated by the Noble said Learned Lord on the bench
below (Lord Plunkett). that it had beep found impos-
sible.to discover any instance in which the ecclesiastical
power of the Church of Rome had been brought to bear
upon temporal subjects. He (the Bishop of Durham)
though; that no principle had been more clearly est.-
Wished in ecclesiastical polity than, that the State as.
signed to Bishops the situation and ectent over which
Sipititoppl functions were to be exercised. Here
• hqvietrerven instance in which the Pope gave to
C *nor theltionsan Catholic Church a right to the
101WeiVasSelelniii of ceses in Leland..
e Bishop of LONDON said that he did not think
acclaim of so little importance as had been attributed
torit. by Noble Lord.. Nut only was testy Bishop
of the Church of Rome appointed by the Pope, not
only was every Priest collate) by him, but written acts
of investiture were made, and conferring upon them tlc
temporalities of the cbutehs When they • seem asked
Irby this had been done, they answered that it was
done in conformity with the ancient f ems of the cons
mon law ; and, though they did not lay any claim to
the temporalities. yet they did not consider themselves
at liberty to dispense with the forms which had been
formerly used. The present clause was of great is.
portance, as it was highly necessary that the persons
who bad been sometime in possession of the titles tefAli-1
shopricks in Ireland should be obliged to abandortdiens.
' After a few Words horn Lordßaiarvaoitemar;-•
Lord REDESDAI.E.said, there was no doubt but
the Raman Catholic Bishops were placed in Ireland iii
a-different sittiati"n from that which they stood ja in
this country. In Ireland the Bishops were in the same
situation in which they had been lett at ;he R•lornsa
tion. With regard to the clause before die. House. he
thought that it could do no good, and could not even
be carried into effect, as the Roman Catholic Bishops
wetilifbe obliged, in their intercotitse lath their own
floc ks,l6 describe themselves as Bishops of the dioceses
over which they presided. ' •
Lord FARNHAM said that It Would he better to withdraw
the clause, as it.orsouisi be inoperative fur the object which it hod
in view. • •
Lord TENTERDEN said, that the clause certainly
*afforded 'no *cruelty at all to the Protestant Church,
although the Noble Duke bad, in introducing the sea.
sure, said that it would be accompanied with such se-
cutties as would satisfy the minds of all. reasonable
Inotebtants upon the subject. The clause, however, he
ilsonght. related to a Most important object, sad be
giou-id, therefore, propose to make it prospective, by
dollen! person who should be !tweak r elected
a Masa,' in Ireland from assuming the Name of the
beloaging to the Bishops of the
Church. ,
The Duke of WELLINGTON objected to the I lam,
as admitting the legality of the functions exercised by
the Roman Catholic Bishops in Ireland. It would be
very difficult to prevent those titles from being given
to those persons after they had been so called in print
is the proceedings of that House. All the Home could
do was to prevent the assumption of those titles by the
individuals. in question. With regard to what the Noble
Lord had said as to his (use Duke of Wellington' )hav-
ing said that the measure would be accompanied with
sufficient securities, he should repeat what be did say.'
that the measure was such as would give satisfaction'
to the House.

After a word or two from Lard Tomanoss the dam. and the
two lamb* damn, were ordered to stand part of the Hid.
OD the alineo:loposieg Freebies op* the Jesuits,
The Marl of 11ADIRSBURT rigid, he Amid like to know
from the Noble said Lamed Lord (ftwkett) what the definition
of a Jesuit me, when he was is ho preyed each in a Coen si law,
Hwhen the proakko ter manumit thuAct were tope pot in force.
H. Lord BEXLEY said, that as Jesuits hid been tor.
away convicted, there must be souse Welt of evidence
applicable to the point. He thought the clause of great
importance, as the Jesuits had been always the light
troops by which the Church of Rome established igu
ranee and superstition in the different quarters of the
earth. He thought that too existence of religious order.
would have** very pernicious effect upon the youth of,
Ireland, whose edniation would be superintended by
their members, pertons bound by no ties to the court;

try. but Isolated by their tows, and attathed to a ye.
reign Power. There were a great many remedies pee,
posed for Ireland, but the great remedy for all its e►ih
to w t•ich he (lewd Bexley) alone looked with hope end
confidence, was she progress of education among the
rising genet ation, and there was an Acne effectual mode
of promoting it than by rootilig out the seeds of bigotry,
sepeistitioa. end eortupti.n. In England he believed
the order of the Jesuits had gained ground, and be se.
det►tood that the establishment at Stoneyturse had,
from small beginnings, made a rapid progress, and os
less they were speedily checked, it was am possible to
fiiresee how far these orders would extend their
Odense. In suppressing them they would only be taking
a measure for which the civil au'b.wsty was competent,
and what was necessary to the peace of the country.
Lord FARNHAM thought the mo►t effectual plat
would be to attach the property belonging to the
monastic orders when they became amenable to the
laws. These orders had acquired considerable peep"
in England and Ireland; and he cont. teed that the
object of the law would be better accompli•heJ by con.
liscating their prop's', than by eitaching personal
penalties. which. th,sukti compatible with aibitraiy
government, were at earia•tce with the principles of
tree State, in which it would be impossible to enfoted
them. As a proof of this he would instance the imps/.
Cation of the J..wits. Ile knew of no w.y in which the
custom house OlScers could recognise them unles► they
confessed, which they acre not likely to di.. If they
legisl.ttd on the matter they should legislate tearlessly
For himself. be agreed with his ,Nob.e Friend (Lord
Beale)) that the clause was not elEctual for the pur-
,
pose,s into ded.
Lord R EPESISA LE was
.for the abolition of all mo-
nastic orders, which were considered mischievous in•
many plates on the C..ntinetrt.• TAI prevent the inqtriii
per accumulation .•f property by she•e orders. be
thought that the S.atute 4.lMostasion, or a similar Act,
should be provided tsar Ireland. He contidered the
ezieteace of she Jesuits in this ci untry dangerous, and •
the clause did not appear to hint quite satist44ctoiy ; bet
art having any amendment to propose, be area
leave it as it stood.

The Gish p of OXFORD mid that In old Acts of Paws;
the wards “ Papist or suspected to he s Papist" had heal see 4.
sod 'perhaps similar words 'Meat meet the vkws of the Noble
Lord.—The dame was agreed to.
The neat clause. prohibiting Jesuits from entering the country
under pain of banishment, was read.
Laid TENTERDEN objected to the peoalty as not moistest
with the law of England. He thought it could not be carried he.
effect, and sub. tied that, supposing it could be made ea cite, k
would net be an adequate puniehmeni. The Nsbk and Leered
Lord proposed, as an amendment, that the chase should he aimed
so far as to make the °fence a misdemeanour, punishable in the
usual way.
The LOUD CHANCELLOR objected to the arms&
(Rent of the Noble and Learned Lord, • n the grol4
that after conviction and impris.inment the off oder
would not be afterwards :moved bon, the country..
The clause, he c-ntended. was sufficiently strong, be.
Cause ii a perion returned after banist.ment, le ass
liable to transportation. He was surprised to hear his
Noble and Learned Friend say that banishment was a
punishment inconsistent with the usage.of the law, whet
there was an Act of the reign of El seeth by which it
was awarded for several offences; and another Act
passed the last seven years made it the punishment fe
publishing a seditious libel a second time. The clause
did not appear to him to operate with undue severity,
as the chief penalty was not indicted mail the return ttl
the banished person. Far these reasons he would' ap;
pose the amendment of his Noble and Ltayned FrieaJ.
A N. •ble Lord behind him (the Earl of ;Idalaiediuip)
asked by-what evidence it was pruposed to cowvict.*
person 14 being a J suit? There could be Da dodo
that every Roman Catholic Bishop in Ireland kiierielji
the regulars belonging to his diocese, and the Rosana'
Catholic Bishops could be called's' evidence to.convies
them. The great object was to suppress their houies
and their displays. for it was certain that their este&
blohments had increased, and that near Dublin, and
in Lancashire. they at present abounded.
Lord-HOLLAND wiled kis ouldiedee at what bad feed
from the Noble sad Loathed lord (Tenssedeo) as to the minis&
emit of basishment__ bake oakeown to the takiliten law of Row
Lind. He (Lard lielland) had advanced a dinner eigigots on the
discussion of the INN whisk had hum referred to; but he was tbea
overbears by &N at law eatiorities he the House. He had emend
a protest at the dem , .41
Lord TEN FERMIN did sot mope% mg ppse.ln which the
punisbaseat haebienhalifilt
itiiid:WOLLAND_ believed them was a law in Seeded
for the purpoes of haialikftpleople to England—(A laugh.)
The Earl of MA EVIESNURY said that two =swats lad bees
given by the-Noble mid Learned Lord (the Lord Ch.ncellor) with
respect to the ~Medea of Jesuits. One related to times to which
he• did not wish to refer, and the other to proceedleig by swan of
the comae. informer. Who wav that common inbutorr to be ? A
Raman Catholic No." M Order"). Perhaps it was me
so • but he would say that, though no-Roman Catholic himself, be
should be sorry to ere a Roman Catholic Bishop brought as ad.
Mace fill ID a court to banish a Jesuit forilfe—(Hear.)
The dame and iniendasest were pritT and the clause was carried
as it staid in the /JUL ,
The dame rehilog to the pvtantsi7 penaky was put and carded.
The dame regarding the power of gremli' Scrams to members
of atessodc orders to remain ix months in • Great Brines beet
invested lot the Seeretartef &us for the Hesse Department, Meg
a Postman. was reek' - • -
Lea FA It H bilimtield.if it were Mum to *Convey a power
of admitting Aeolis* lute tide coontry
The LOUD CHANCELLOR submitted that it would be bard
totally to esdutli'peneas in prohibited orders from visiting this
country, howevreoespeetoble they might's, or however barmiest
or laudable their permits.
The Doke of WELLINGT92I mid, that the chief dial of
this prod/lea war to admit sorb of his Majesty% subjects as mai
Jesuits to die privilege of visiting their mins-, laud.
Lord REDIISDA LB thought it was proper to provide far de
mining disarmed persons fur a short doss.
The Neal of CLA NCA ET Y pot a loestion raladvi to the WI
" being a Protestant." . •--
The LORD CHANCELLOR replied, that It axis geria
better to entrust the power sit 'Meals Madam to a estath
Secretary than to a Catholic eam—The clause was carried,.
Several other damn were put and agreed to. • •
Oa the chose being pet Motive to the @oppression et Soda*,
• Mead by monastic vows,"
The Earl of NOUNCASHEL wild. that If It was the intends
of the Bill to suppress monastic isstitations, he sow no necosity for
tolerating Mugs, if males were &ewer& He knew of maim
rig to the areatry in which ladies were placed @gamut their MS
A French Lady had bees placid aphid her inclinations in a one-
vest is Laaceehire, sad, Wig a foreigner, had no redriaisood ow
Coldklird there at that imam. He knew of a similar wadi
Protests= Captahr albs army, who. net feting mock atteshisont
to his daughter, bad ineetred her la a esteem matrary t. her MIL
Sock promediesk" Si thought, should met be selereted is a fed
country. If the Omenthanst weee disposed to gam* the IneseN,
of Jesuit.. they should also take masons sbode JoildlN
He was aware that sock edsted. The Emend Mercy
a dogmata orders they were bet shut up ht
their activation to go to the houses of the peer, sad WI!
indigent Protestants,and. trader the proems of ilea,*
desmiared to make ptemlytes. They had establidind Olethelhid
Cork and-other. places, and he thought they 0111114 10 11.
aleelithed•—The dame was mired.
The seat elms, respectlog the modes( recovering the peen**
patellae. speeded in the BIN was reed and word to, duo a "
words from Lord FAIIIIIIMI and the Loa Couscaraom
The other resmisdag chases, and the and tide if
Bill, were read miasmal to. after the INN pawed *Mt.
die last of the forms armanisry Is Cameetem
Lord XEN YON begged to ask ale Noble Date (WehNwi)ll
what time the Report would he Wm* lip, se be two Amps&
resents to pieesiee, wild' he thought would bq mess ~oda*
proposed *at theheiliging up at the Report dm ea the tiled MOW
of the BBL
IThe Dike of 'WELL! NOTON hawed die sod mew woe
he to bring up the Repast as soon as k was Wad te•
The lad of stitirnissuaT could eisosileet no known r