Star.
London, England, 1821-05-01 00:00:00

original letter of General Wolfe, on the subject of
she education of an Officer :••••4 Your brother, no
doubt, is master of the Latin and French languages,
and has some knowledge of the mathematics: with-1
out this last he can never become acquainted with
one considerable branch of our business—the con-I
struction of fortifications, and the attack and defence,
of places. In these days of scarcity, and in these un-
lucky times, it is much to be wished that all young
soldiers of birth and education would follow your
brother's steps, and, as they will have their turn to
command, that they will try to make themselves fit
for that important trust. Without it, we must sink
under the superior ability and indefatigable industry
of our restless neighbour. —The Hon. Member par-
ticularly applauded that part of the Institution which
gave education to the orphans of meritorious Officers
who had died in the service of their country.
Captain O'GRADY wished to say that the Pimlico
Establishment should be either done away with, or
removed ro the College at Sandhurst.
Mr. HUME complained that a Pension List had
grdwn up on this Establishment. It was not true
that it was kept op exclusively for the sons of Offi-
cers; for, of the whole number now in the College,
the number of orphans was only fifty--(Hear, hear);
of those who lately had got commissions, the greater
rapt were foisted in by interest or favour—(Hear,
hear).—He thought that if the Government would
only make knowledge a test fur obtaining commis-
sions, the parents who intended their children for the
Army would still give them the necessary education
to fit them for that service. The whole expense of
this Establishment might therefore be saved.
Colonel WOOD denied that commissions were
procured by interest.
General HA RDINGE adduced, as a proof of the
excellence of the military system of education at
Sandhurst, the fact that two schools were lately set
up in... Paris by the War Minister on precisely the
same.plan. The -military science had made. great
progress, and he did not think the Constitution of
itis-country would be improved by encouraging mi-
litary ignorance. Officers were given to understand
that their children would be provided for, and it
tvould be a breach of faith on the part of the nation
hot to *deem that pledge. He entirely approved of
the suggestion of a gallant Officer (Captain O'Grady)
that the Riding:house at Pimlico should be trans-
fen ed to Sandhurst.
Mr. T. WILSON said thit fin man was less qua-
lified than himself to give an opinion upon such a
question as the present ; but if there were only 55
orphans educated at this Institution, it appeared to
him that the-Institution was perverted.
Captain O'GRADY begged leave to ask the No-
ble Lord opposite a question. He saw that the por-
ter of the establishment had a salary of 1-70 a-year.
Be wished to know whether thit individual was an
old soldier, or a decayed iankeeper? If he was the
latter, he (Captain O'Grady) trusted that the appoint-
ment would, before long, undergo revision. Such
places, in his opinion, ought to be tilled by old soldiers.
No answer was given to the question.
The House then divided, when there appeared.
For the original Motion - 32
Against it - - .23
Majority - —9
After the return of strangers to the gallery, the
following sums were voted:
5t172.250 for the pay of General Officers, not Colonels of
Regiments.
250.000 for the same class of Officers for Ireland.
tf1,2.!:5 9s. 2d. for the pay of the Irish Staff.
R2d,204 2s. sd. was then moved for the pay of Governors of
Garrisons on Foreign Stations.
Mr. HUME objected to this grant, as most extra-
vagant. Amongst other complaints against Minis-
ters, the Hon. Member noticed their appointment of
Lord Chatham to the Governorship of Gibraltar.
llecondemned the selection they had made,_as inju-
dicious, and taxed them with prodigality, in giving, at
this time, to a Nobleman, a sinecure office which cost
the nation £6,000 a-year. He asked of what possible
utility could a Governor be to a garrison who did
sot reside there ?

of the Secretary for the Home Department, and the
Officers were paid for keeping garrison, though a goo
was not left in it. The Honourable Member moved,
as an Amendment, that from the sum proposed there
, be deducted £2,449.
Lord A. HAMILTON said, he could not give a
silent vote on that occasion, when his Majesty's Mi-
nisters.refused to give any account of the application
of the grant which they proposed. When any pro-
positionlor reduction was made, they raised objec-
tions on account of the smallness of the sums, or the
merits of the parties; but they uniformly refused to
adopt any such proposal, and gave the Public no
hopes that they ever would consent to any reduction
in the national expenditure.
Lord PALMERSTON referred the Honourable
Member (Mr. Hume) to the Estimates of the Tower
establishment for the present year, whereby he could
inform himself that it was different from what he sup-
posed it to be. The Noble Lord instanced the names
of the Duke of Lord Hill, Lord Beres-
ford, Lord Combermere, and other illustrious names
as well worthy of filling the various offices- which
they now held.
Mr. BENNETT would not object to Establish-
ments such as those of Plymouth or Chatham ; but
he wished to know what necessity there was for a
fort at Inverness? When the Highlands were in a
state of disturbance, such a fort might have been ne-
cessary; but he knew enough of Sboiland, at present,
to say it required no such Establishment. Why
should Hull also be supported as a military establish-
ment? What necessity was there for a garrison at
Stirling, unless for electioneering purposes.?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged to ask the Noble
Marquis opposite, if Lord Chatham was to reside per-
manently in Gibraltar? and whether it was the inten-
tion, in that case, to continue the office of the De-
puty-Governor, as at present ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, all he
knew was, that Lord Chatham was preparing to de-
part immediately for Gibraltar.
Mr. PHILLIPS suppOrted the Amendment, and
said it was impossible not to see that the sinecures
were kept up by Government for the sake of patron-
age, on which Ministers depended for their support.
Lord PALMERSTON said the Hon. Member (Mr.
Bennett) was unfortunate in his argument, applied to
Stirling, as to its being kept up forelectioneering pur-
poses. Lord Hutchinson was Governor of Stirling,
a person who was not likely to exert any influence
for his (Lord Palmerston's) side of the House.
The House then divided on the Amendment, when
the numbers were:
For the Amendment 27
Against It 86
Majority -—6 O
The original Resolution was then put and carried.
Lord PALMERSTON then moved, that the sum
of £11.1,256 17s. 6d. be granted to his Majesty for
defraying the expenses of the retired Officers and un-
attached Officers of his Majesty's Forces of Great
Britain, from the 24th of December, 1820, to the
24th of December, 1821.
. Mr. HU3IE said, a great additional burthen was
imposed on the Public in this charge. Some Officers
were Called in from the Half.pay, and, after a service
of two, three, or four years in the Veteran Regi-
ments, were then allowed to retire on Half.pay, by
which the Public were saddled with an expense of
£13,870, which was the difference between the half
and full pay of 247 Officers who had been brought in
on the Veteran Service, without any claim for hard
or long service. The Honourable Member instanced
several Officers on that establishment, who served
only one, two, or three years. He would then ask
what right had any Officer to claim to be put on the
retired full pay for a service of two or three years?'
He thought the Committee ought to deprive them of
that to which their services did-slot entitle them. He
would therefore move, that £13,870 be deducted from
the sum proposed to be granted.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the point on
which he would rest his opposition to the Honourable

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in reply, Member's Amendment was, that those Officers who
charged the Hon. Member with making his observa- were put on full pay had no claim to higher pro-
bons on the vote before the Huuse a vehicle for an motion. They could not rise one step higher, while
attack of the most personal, and, perhaps, not the those on half-pay could rise through every gradation
most gentlemanly nature, upon an absent Noble- to the highest rank in the army. Then, one condi;
man. The Hon. Member was not ignorant the Noble tion attached to their .retiring on full pay was,
4.ord alluded to was now actually on his way to that they could rise no higher than the rank they
Gibraltar. He had heard a great deal about this held. Another condition was, that they were obliged
appointment, and yet the lips of Gentlemen were to do duty whenever it would be necessary to call
closed during the Governorship of a late Royal Duke on them. The length of service was no criterion
—(Hear, hear).—let it was a fact, that during his whereby to judge of the justness of an Officer's claim.
incumbency the Duke of Kent received £6,500 a- 'Fifteen or sixteen years could not give a claim: The
year, whilst Lord Chatham had but £-1,400. Commander-in-Chief made his selection from among
Mr. HUME thought it was neither justice nor hu- those Officers who had been on hard service, and
Inanity in Ministers, who had wronged the illustri- from those who were disabled, many of whom, from
ous Duke during his life, now to taunt his memory length of time, and in consequence of their merito-
that be was dead--a(Hear,hear).—The Duke of Kent rious services, were raised from the ranks. The half
ought to have had £3)500 more, if Ministers did and full pay besides, were not, as the Hon. Member
him justice. Ilis being made Governor of Gibraltar supposed, as one to two, they were as three to four;
was the reward of ten years' service abroad with his and all such as had been put on full pay, forfeited
regiment, bestowed upon him by his father. It was thereby all claim to further promotion.
not pleasant to draw comparisons, but he put it so- Mr. HUME said, that as he understood from the
berly to the Noble Marquis, whether he meant to Noble Lord that those who were brought from the
say that in claims upon the country Lord Chatham nalf to full pay had no claim to promotion, he should
could compete with the Duke of Kent? (Hear, hear). let his motion go to the Committee, but would not
Everybody knew the services of the former at Wal- press it to a division.
cheren and elsewhere--(Hear, hear)—and that they After a few words from Mr. BENNETT, the Amend-
had been fully requited. ment was put and negatived. The original grant of
Colonel DAVIES observed, that it was more pro- £115,256 17s. 6d. was then put and carried.
Per to inquire into an office when a new possessor was It was then moved, that a sum not exceeding
coming in, than whilst one was actually in the situa- £14,742 17s. 6d. be granted to his Majesty for the
tion. He then took occasion to censure the indecent same service in Ireland.
haste with which the appointment of Lord Chatham After a few words from Colonel DAVIES, the
blob place; for he asserted that the same messenger motion was agreed to.
vho brought news of the Royal Duke's death to the The next vote was for granting his Majesty/21,26a.
)40kole Marquis at his country-house in Kent, brought Tor thedisbanded foreign Officers, and Officers' Widows.
also intelligence of the appointment of Lord Chat- and Orphans.
barn to be Governor of Gibraltar—(Hear, hear). Mr. HUME said, the Noble Lord (Palmerston) had
Sir F. OMMANEY supported the Resolution. not acted with candour in the statements laid before
'Mr. HUME wished to know from the Noble Lord the House. There was, in 1816, and in every year
the Secretary at War), whether the establishment at since, a person through whose hands the money
the Tower was such at present as it was some years passed to foreign Officers, and who, for that, re-
a.llo? He would take that as an instance of the sys- ceived, of the public money, three or four thousand
Pursued by his Majesty's Ministers, and from pounds a-year, but which was not stated in the Esti-
di'at the Committee might learn the rest... Ex tow mates. He also complained that the British Officers
01,ce "Res !” At the period to which he alluded, were not on the same footing with the foreign Of-
:le...was not a gun at the Tower, although a regular ficers. The former had to pay, though on the spot
etablishment of a garrison was charged in theEsti- themselves, a per tentage for the pay they received;
_Tater* It WAS apprehended, as he understood, tlt:et whereas the German O.ficer might draw his bill for
tae Radicals would attack the Tower and take the 1.:(200, -or whatever sum was due to him, and he re-
4cuinst to the Cheviot hills--(A laugh). That he Uri-, ceived evert penny, without deduction ; but the Pub-
.ood have been done recommendation Elid.ftete charged-withit, although he was not. The
• 1.1.-_`l
; i I


I charge to the Public was, on this account, in 1816,
£2449; in 1817, £4459; in 1818, £4415; in 1819,
1E2238 ; and in 1820, £3100; in all, the expense to
'the Public was £17,661, given to the Officer through
whose hands the money passed ; whereas, two clerks
in the Pay Office could have done it for £2BO. Ile
would think it no hardship on foreign Officers to be
put on a level with British Officers. If the former
could not receive and spend the money in this coun-
try, they ought to pay for sending it to them, as the
British Officer did. He would therefore move, " That
£3050 be taken from the sum proposed," which was
at the rate of 31 per cent. on the whole, which the
Public had to pay for sending it; but the foreign
Officers were to lose nothing by the deduction.
Lord I'ALMEItSTON said, that, from what the
Hon. Member said, it would seem as if the Office al-
luded to were created by him (Lord Palmerston).—
The only connection he'had with it was, that two
years since he reduced it from A to 31 per cent. The
British Officer could receive his pay without any de-
duction, if he remained here to receive it ; but if he
went to foreign countries, he could not complain if
.he had to pay an agent for transacting his business in
his absence. The foreign Officers could not reside
here. When we had no further occasion for them,
they were ordered home, and it would be hard if'
they could not receive the reward of their services as
British Officers could.

Colonel DAVIES said, some foreign Officers were
receiving half-pay from this country while they were
serving under other States on the Continent, and it
was impossible they could serve two masters at the
same time. He instanced the Duke de Guiche, who
was receiving half-pay, and was a Major-General in
the French Army.
Lord PALMERSTON said, he before heard of
reports of foreign Officers sending over false certifi-
cates for their half-pay. He inquired into the matter,
and found there was no foundation for the report ;
and he could inform the Hon. Member, that since
the Duke de Guiche went into the trench service, he
never applied for his half-pay. It was unnecessary to
speak of the services of the Duke de Guiche.

Mr. BENNETT, after a few observations,. said he
would move, as an Amendment, that £2,000 be de-
ducted from the sum proposed.
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Noble Lord if there
was any recruiting for the British service on foreign
stations ? He asked the question, because he saw an
order from the Admiralty to man a ship, ordering
her to Heligoland, to convey 100 men from that
Island. The Honourable Member then begged leave
to withdraw his Amendment, to let his Honourable
Friend's Amendment stand in its place.
Lord PALMERSTON, in explanation, said, that
it had been found necessary to fill up the vacancies
in the 60th Regiment with foreigners, whilst it was
on a foreign station ; but that in future the vacancies
would be filled up by native subjects.
The House then proceeded to divide on Mr. BEN-
NETT'S Amendment.

For the Amendment
Against it -
Majority - - - ---
The next Resolution moved, to grant a sum. of
£42,796 9s. to defray the expenses of Chelsea Hospital.
Colonel DAVIES objected to this sum, on the
ground of the chief Medical Officers holding mere
sinecures. The Surgeon, he said, had £BOO, and be
had besides a pension of £446 a-year as a retired In-
spector, and the chief part of his duty was performed
by an assistant. The siiiiition of the Apothecary
was also a sinecure, because his duty was performed
by the Dispenser. There was also an unnecessary
number of Clerks, and their salaries had been in-
creased to an unreasonable extent.

- 55
- 89
-54

Sir CHARLES LONG justified the appointments
in question ; and maintained that the Officers alluded
to were necessary, as having a great deal of duty to
attend to. An alteration had been made in the pay-
ments to Pensioners, by making payments quarterly
instead of half-yearly : this created a necessity of
employing a greater number of Clerks ; and, in con-
sequence of the regularity which took place by means
of this increased number, a saving of expense was
effected to the amount of £BO,OOO a-year.
Mr. R. GORDON wished to know the meaning of
the charge of granting £lOO a-year to a Clerk to a
Magistrate for attesting out-pensioners?
Mr. HUME did not complain of the salaries paid
to the thirty-one Clerks, provided they were all em-
ployed. But in the other departments, he thought
there might be a saving of £2500. He doubted,
however, whether the establishment of Chelsea Hos-
pital ought to be kept up at all, and he thought the
sums paid to medical men were enormous. He was
sure, that the men kept at that Hospital would be
much better off if sums of money were paid.to them
at their own houses.,-The Resolution was agreed to.
The sum of £15,973 was voted for the In-pen-
sioners of Kilmainham Hospital, in Ireland.
The sum of £943,000 was next granted to the Out-
pensioners of Chelsea Hospital; and £215,222 to the
Out-pensioners of Kilmainham Hospital.
Mr% HUME wished to know why the two Establish.
ments of Chelsea and Kilmainham might not be con-
solidated into one, so far as regarded Out-pensioners,
by which a great saving of expense might be effected?
Sir C. LONG said, that a plan of this kind was
now under the consideration of the Government.

On the Resolution for granting £32,000 for the
Military Asylum,
Mr. HUME appealed to the Noble Lord whether
it was necessary to keep up an establishment when
the individuals for whose benefit it was intended no
longer existed ?
Lord PALMERSTON said it was intended to limit
the number of children admitted into this place; but
the thing could not be dpne at once. All the establish-
ments were to be done away except that of Chelsea.
Mr. HOBHOUSE wished to know why great num-
bers of children who were not the orphans of soldiers
should be brought up in a way by which soldiers
should be separated from the citizens ? and .he asked
if the children were those of soldiers who had died
in battle?

Lord PALMERSTON said they were the children
of soldiers, who were brought up in the Asylum; and
so far from their being all brought up as soldiers,
numbers of them were bound out to various trades,
after haring received an education at the Asylum.
A sum of £31,560 was moved for Superannuation
Allowapces.

Colonel DAVIES said, that many of these super.