Star.
London, England, 1817-04-29 00:00:00

mom

ciajed the winetkin of Parliament, which languished
ca account of a deficiency of funds necessary to pen-
secute them. Of many, parts were already finished.
'hie were useless until the whale was comeleted.
Matte urgent applications had ben made to the Go.
Teroment in hehalf of these ,i.erir., n which if had
bten intended the attention ( f P oliament stnitttl
have been calle,l in a direct manner ; but it was row I
ccrsidered rh it it would or more beneficial if tile mo.
rev xs pl aced at the &Tose' of Commisseiriere
yoae unconnected ,vith Government, and Who would
h, wined in th body of the Bill.• These Commis.
torors, I.e should propose, should he empowered to
siz.v:iece sums, by way of loan. to Corporations and
for Bodies, for the purpose of making Harbours or
Cahals, or to Trustees of Roads, or to any persons
t.,, .yid in public works now in progress, or about
o,,,ieetake them. These advances were not to• be
created to those undertakings which the Parliament
"sad sanctioned t for instance, the laudable Associa-
tion fer the Encouragement of Fisheries would he a
eery proper institution to receive aid. Works could
:Inc be brought to completion without ultimate ex-
?eme tri :he public, if, as he trusted it would prove,
out As had happened on former occasions, the interest
ao money advanced had defrayed the expense of,
tic commission and the other charges attending the
lA. The transaction would in that case be nut less
advantageous to the public at large than to the indi.
viduAls immediately eneceaned. In Ireland it would
:et be practicable to nominate a similar Commission,
tri:a et
such a delay 'as would defeat the purpose of
ogrant, which was urgent in its nature. Itwouldl
necessary to enter into a correspondence with that I
o'untry, to know what Gentlemen would undertakk
a duty which would entail some trouble without any •
prospect nt reward. To avoid that delay,' the sum
Appropriated to that country would be placed at the
disposal of the Lord Lieu:enant, to be applied to the
Imposes he had mentioned.—Having detailed that
re of the pl in which referred to the completion of
It hiic works, he felt much greater difficulty in enter-
c; on the subject of advances on the security of the
aor's Rates. He had never thought that any thing
avid be done towards the relief of the Agricultural
11.oulatiiin by the advance of any such sum as he
ate proposed to advance. The Agricultural Inte-
WAS to such an extent identified with the State,
.at he could not conceive any circumstance by which
i•c old be to tar separated from its prosperity or dd.
i. its as to receive relief from any sum which l'ar.
./...rent could wisely advance to it. He was afraid
;').) that loans to the Agricultural Districts, in aid of
et Pool's Rites, would encourage the practice of
("tailing the fair wages of labour, and of supplying
tor deliciency by assistance from the Poor'e karts.
They might also be tempted to throwon the Poor's
Rtes rn die present year those for whom they might
roeroise find emploament. On these accounts, the
of the Agricultural distress did not form a part
tithe measure When the Bill was before the Hem
n:re would be found clauses which would guard
aunt such an idea. The aavance to be granted tQ
to; iAlet was never to exceed the half of the rate of
et list year, and no advance was-to be made to any
oh except in cases in which the rate was double
average of the two preceding years. Though the
IMO did not embrace the reliet of the Agriculto-
disWets, it was hoped to afford a temporary re-
that species of distress which had that night
brought under the notice of the House, and it
tat communicatiens from the place from which-
Petition that night had been presented (Birming.
1) that the present measure was in pan to be at.
tied. Undoubtedly•that distress was lamentable,
he thought there were reasonable hopes of a
her relief than the Honokrable and Learned
gamin (Mr. Brougham) seemed to anticipate.--
this grant, indeed, he wee incitteed io calculate,
t omega important impulse would be given to
inhale, of BirminghaM, as piobably would A.-
' the means of 'permanent relief to that town,
had suffered so particularly in consequence of
Milton from war to peace—that that transition
materially affected Birmingham, would be ob-
_. from this. fact, that during the war no less than
3100, 00of•small arms had been manufactured there
'the use of the Allies, independently of those pro-
:4 for our own supply—and of course thrl'eesse-
,of such warm Ind, in consequence of the lesion►.
sof peace, must produce a most material result.
it was in this respect only that the trade of ,Bier
tgliam had suffered, for it appeared that .the ex-
eion of steel and iron had not Materially fallen off,
export amounting (the Right Hon. Gentleman
in 1814 to 41,940,000. in 1815 to aft1,127"10,'
1816 £1,740,000. Thus in the last year it
rather more than what it was in the year Fe-
iner while it was nearly as much as in 1814.-
1 upon of hardware, the manufacture of Bir-
than), the Right Hon. Gentleman stated to be.
14 4300,000, in 1815 4871,000, ,and in 1816
Thus the falling off the last year, corn•
to that of 1815, was only about ten per cent.
it was more than double that in 1814. The
• Hon. Gentleman proceeded to shew that no
PI off had taken place in the several articles of
;ham manufacture, since the war, by a cora-
,: uf exports, except in those articles used
Purposes of war, and, therefore, he was led
that the distress which afaicted that town
-41 in consequence of the cessation of tee de-
as
ttIG ivernment, while, with respect to foreign
'de, that town had suffered no m aerial diminu-
''' In this conclusion, indeed, he was confirmed
the ialormation of those who were best acquainted
trade of the country, and most competent to
orin the subject. From auch sources, he
that the loan of 30 or 810,000 to the menu.
r'rs Of Birmingham would be of material service
'listing circumstances. Por the distress of
alien), as well es for that which. affected other
,01 the country, he telt the most lively interest,
therefore he rejoiced in the exercise of private be.
deuce to alleviate that drstress.—But he was el-
f% aware that private benevolence could not sa-
to afford permanent relief. Yet while it wai.in
It),h was impressed with the conviction that it
net become Government to interfere. But the
was, that the resources created by that benevo.
were nearly, if nut altogether, exhausted, And
it became the duty of Government to em-
its aid for the relief of the industrious poor,
' by every practicable economy in the public
:urea but by an actual loan to those who had
litota 01 giving employment to industry.

Tie felt so strongly the peculiar siteatron of Arrin Inger
ham, as described in the petition presented by a
Learned Gentleman (Mr Brougham), and so fairly
anirnadverted• upon by that Learned Gentleman,
that he should have coioeived himself bound to sub-
mit a distinct propo ition with regard to that town,
but upon consideration it was deemed more just and
expedient to extend the means of relief to other
places, which were also suffering by the pressure of
the trines. That due provision would Le made by
the Commissioner. to be appointed to guard against
the misapplication of these means there was retry
reason to conclude. and as to the details of the plan
to be pursued for . this vet y, desirable purpose, he
thought it better to leave those to be arranged by the
collective wisdom of the House, elide he should he
ready to afford every explanation in his power with
respect to the views of hit Majesty's Ministers. What
views might be entertained •by other Gentlemen, or
whit objection might be urged against the plan which
he had stibmitted, he could not presume to anticipate;
but that plan was liable to revision, and it would, lie
trusted, be put in the most perfect, practicable shape.
'by the consideration and judgment of the House.—
His proposition at present was, that the resolutions
which he held in his hand should be adopted, and,
when printed, stibmitted to further consideration on
Friday next, or on any other day which might appear
most convenient to the House. But he begged leave
to obset we, that dispatch was of the utmost Impor-
tance in a question of this nature, and that no delay
in the arrangements proposed should be allowed that
could possibly be avoided. The Right Honourable
Gentleman concluded with proposing the first 'resolu-
tion, " That his Majesty be ens!) ed to issue Exche-
quer Bills, nut exceeding £1,500,000, to be distribu-
ted in loans by Commissioners arpointed by Parham
•ment, for the employment ot the Poor ot Great Bea.
Limn in Public Works, and tur the relief of Manufac.
lures, on the condition that due security be taken for
the re-payment of these loans.
Mr. PONSONBY rose, not to make any captious
objection to the Right Honourable Gentleman's plan,
which he did not yet correctly understand, but to ob
serve that the Right Honourable Gentleman had not
stated the mode in which the repayment ot the pro-
posed loans was to be secured. This was certainly an
omission which it was desirable to 511, ply. The
omission was,perhaps, casual, but it was rote at such
imptirtance, that he hoped the' Right Honourable
Gentleman would favour the House with some ex-
planation as to the manner in which, and the time
when it ssas proposed that these advances should
be repaid.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated, in reply, that :t was his intention to leave the
details as toil's.- execution of his plan to be conside-
red and adjusted by the House. He had, however,
no objection to present an outline of his views with
respect to the repayment alluded to by the Right
Hun. Gentleman. In the first place, he proposed
that the*Exchequer Sills to bea,sued should be pay-
Able in three years, that is, in 1820 t and that secu-
rity. should be taken for the repayment of.the several
advnutes by instalments. so that the whole should be
repaid to the Commissioners by the time when .the
Exchequer Bills became payeale by the State. But
that, in case it should be expedient for the czanpletiost
of public works to allow a farther tone, the Commis
skitters should be empowered to extend it fur six or
seven years from the period of making the loan. It
was also proposed that the several loans should bear
an interest of live per cent. whale the Exchequer Bills
should be issued at their present rate of Slt per cent.
and the differeoce would, of course, be for the advert,.
rage of the public. The securities to be token for
the proposed advances would be naturally had froin
those persons who were interested in the manufactures
or public works, to which those advances would be
made, probably trem the proprietors,' and it would be
for the Commissioners to look to the adequacy of those
te:urities. None would, of coutse, offer• security for
the Oasis who were not fully convinced of the utility
of the public works or manufactures, for whose be-
nefit those loans were to be made, and of the com-
petency of such establishments to provide an ade-
Trate indemnity, or ot their inadequacy if left in an
imperfect state.
Mr. BLAKE expressed his regret that the Right
Hon. Gentleman's plan of relief did not extend to
agriculture, which claimed the first consideration of
Parliament, and was certainly deserving of more at-
tention than either manufactories or public works.
For as to the former they would, and they ought to
be left to find their own level, while as to the latter
they were generally more ornamental than useful.
Fur example, great sums were expended in Ireland
in constructing grand canals, instead of improviog
the natural navigation of that country, or in making
other improvements, of which that long. neglected
country was known to be susceptible. But the im-
provement of the land ought to be the 'main •eonsi-
deration, and the landed interest notoriously suffered
the greatest distress both in. England and Ireland.
Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan evinced no at-
tendon to either, although land was the source of all
our wealth...although if the landed interest were de-
, pressed. commerce was of no avail, and all our pub-
lic works must become comparatively useless. •
Mr. PHILLIPS declared his inability to compre-
hend the nature of the security alluded to by the
Right Honourable Gentleman. Did the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman mean to confine the proposed
loans to public works actually begun ?—(" No, no,"
from the Treasury Bench, ,* they are to extend to
works to be begun").—As these loans were to be
granted for the construction of public roads, how, he
would ask; were the parochial rates to be relieved by
pledging these rates to the persons Who should be.
come security for the repayment of these loans
Such a plan would, in his opinion, rather tend to
augment the rates, and to aggravate the evil so. loudly
complained of. Then as to manutactures, it was a
delusion to conceive that this plan would afford any
relief. For to his knowledge, the manufacturing
towns' did not want capital to give employment to
labour, but a market for the sale of their productions'
;.-(thar,.kaar).—lt•was, therefore, a mockery to sup.'
pose that the proposed advance would be productive
of any advantage to the manufacturers Of the away.
and it was equally delusive to say that the distress of
(with the ezeeption
.of Or' harvest)
Uottlycooufntar
Iterpsorary nature I. tor the taet was, thra
they were broken-down by the pressor/ref taxas....
Ws was the great evil) that by tieing every' kes
rticle
of export, rendered as anablvso sclirout.pladops 'or

• ,
, .
santantaetare on reasonable ienias. eSpeCT3Ily to Fo-
reigners. Again, as to the system of securities pro.
posed •by the Right Honourable Gentleman, it WAS
ObViOUS that the establishment of such a system
must interfere most injuriously with the transfer
of property. For who could calculate that under
such a system any property purcbasi d Might lint most
unexpectedly be swept away by an Exclwq.iti• Ex.
or Extent in Aid— (Hear, Hear.) 'nit whole
svlti-m of the ltight- Honourable Gentleman was in-
dr. d pregnant with /faculty and delwion, while the

only effectual way of rcliev'ng the distress of the
country was to reduce evir public estalkshments, and
to introduce a rigid ettlomy into every branch of the
public expenditure, to which lie (eared neither the
Right Honourable Gentleman nor his coileNgues were
in any degree disposed.
Mr. GRENFELL expressed a wish to know in
what way it was intended to advance the piorsed
loans. whether in specie or in Bank-notes ?—whether
.
the Exchequer Bills were to be put into the hands 01
the Bank, there to remain with interest accuniulating
upon them for three years, or lent at once to the par.
ties from whom they required securities to be taken ?
He also desired to know whether it was intended to
issue Exchequer Bills of £lOO or £5O each, and so
to render them a part of the circulating medium of
the country
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
replied, that the intention was to issue Exchequer
Bills, as in former cases, at seltiO, or perhaps 850

each, to the parties giving the required securites, and
thus from the regulation of interest, they might be
taken at par, and so become a p4rt.ot the circulating

medium of the cvuntry. But he should eister tuither
into the details on a future occAsion. With re,pect

to the observations of an Honourable Member (Mr.
Phillips) he had no hesitation in stating, that he was
completely of opinion, the distress of the country was
only temporary. Indeed, it such was not his 'opi-
nion, he most regard not only the present, but any
plan that human wisdom could devise as a mere de-
lusion, and insufficient to remove the evils coin-

plumed of. But the object and calculation of the pro.
ject which be bad submitted was to relieve the dis-

tress of an unfavourable season, which he hoped very
unlikely now to occur—and in so doing it was pro-
posed to fellow the examples of 1793 and 1811, nei-
ther of which had been productive of inconvenience.
To a question from Lord A. HAMILTON, the CHAN-
=AAR of the Excitants& observed, that personal se-

curtly would be requited for parishes, where (as in

Scotland) there were no poor rates.
The Honourable Mr. LAMB expressed a lrpe
that it should go forth to the country that the object
of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan was not to
afford what was called relief, but to provide employ.
ment for the poor. He was most anxious that this
should be distinctly understood, and that no delusion
should prevail, lest an idea should arise that it was
meant to give away the public money fur the purpose
of encouraging idleness or prodigality. As to the se-
curity to be taken, he t:usted that adequate prOl lbloll
would be made to guard against the evil of allowing
the occupier of land to mortgsge thai land without the
consent of the proprietors, tor otherwise great con-
fusion must ensile, and the landlords would ultimately
suffer considerable injustice. especially where any ma-
terial rise at present etisted in the Pours' Rates.
Lord COCHRANE disapproved of the plan un.
deesemideratiots, =leis Ii as far as it might be c
'Werra is the repayment of some part of the money
which had been unjustly taken from the people. In
any. other view, it appeared to his mind to be a* com-
plete delusion: tcr, the great evil consisting incite bur-
then of taxation. no effectual relief could be.afforded
bat by the reduction of that burthen. This was the
evil whiCh bore down our manufactures, and which
destroyed our trade. For it was nonsense to say, that
the prohibitory decrees of foreign Governments could
prevent the sale of our commodities, if the manntac-
toren could afford to sell them at I reasonabler fit&
It was notorious, that all the navy of England could
not guard against smuggling into this country; and
at was a mockery to pretend that any foreign Govern.
ment could prevent the introduction of our manufac-
4ures, if foreigners were not able to undersel us,
through the weight of taxation to which these manu-
factures were subjected. That was indeed the great
obstacle to our commerce, which the superiority of
our machinery and the iogenuity of our artists were
totally insufficient to overcome. The funds and the
taxes were then the principal enemies of our trade,
and while they existed in their present state it was
idle to pretend that trade could be restored, or that
the country could be relieved by a plan like that of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, which proposed to advance a
sum which was not, in tact. equal to ti-e amount of the
poors' rates for three months. For out paws' rates
I were Mown at present to exceed 151 millions per ann.'
The Noble Lord here endeavoured to shew, that if st
sponge were at once applied to the public debt, no
injury whatever would arise to the nation,, and that
common justice demonstrated the neceeity. of
dining the interest of that debt, in order that the
fundholders should bear their doe share of the public'
burthens, Worn the pressure of which they were at
presearexempted, through the enhancement-of that
circulating Medium which was so materially dere.
ciated when they lent their money..
Mr. PONSONBY said, he was net mate under-
stood the measure now proposed by the Right B'
nourable Gentleman I indeed he was rather inclined
to think he did nut understand it. He was willing
to suppose that it had been brought forward with the
best intentions; but he was certain, if it were intended
to produce good, it should be quickly put in opera.
lion« He therefore bad no desire to impede the pro-1
gress of the measure, but; on the contrary, felt us-
cerely, desirous of promoting it. He had heard!
enough, however, to convince him, that the House
would not be at to enter urns a consideration of the
whole question, till the Bill Was regularly before
them, and with that conviction he should not oppose
either the passing of the Resolutions, or the bringing
up of the Report. The Right Honourable Gentle-
man would do well; therefore, to brin&in the Bill as'
soon as possible. At the same time he wished dis-
tinctly to state, that he should not consider himself
bound, in consequence of thin assenting to all the
previous steps, to approve of the MIMIC itself, when
Me fully ondostood it, and had fully considered it.
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
sakci that nilitbliwconld•be mini fair or candid than
the proPesklen- cif the Honourable Member ; and he
Wield is fat from Callsidnium any individual pledged

Or approve of the Measure hereafter,mere:;' on We=
count of his voting fir the Resolutions..
Mr. PONSONBY explained. He said, if the plan
were even more ohji ct;ohable than it appeared at the
first view, yt there lam' sineething so pleasing to the
mind in the idea ,rf proviJing tellet tor the present
eioresses 1.1 that he could not for a mo-
ment bring himself to oppose the comidere•ion of any
scheme which seemed likely to Attain that ohjeer.
Lord MILTON said, it would certainly be very
invidious so throw any obstructions in Ole way ref a
measure which was intended to relieve the poor; but
At the faille littl:vit was essential that the House and
the country should clearly understood tine nature of •
IN measure, which he wall sure bad not bens the case
with respect to the Iloit'se unit that evening. And
he mnew that out of doors an ()pitiful very generally
prevailed, that it WAS intrn.ied for the relief of the
pour gem i. 114. In fart, one object of the measure
was only to facilitate the means of giving employ-
ment to those persons who liappenvil to be to locally
situated, that works ref pishltc descr;ptirrn were cur.-
tying on in their neighbourhood. The other object was
to enable particular parishes to Afford parochial re-
lief where the poor-rates were alu.ne a certain level..
• He confessed lie doubted the practicability of the plan,
especially with regard to thy, latter poiar, bees ice the
duress that was felt in to soy paririei, 470i2 not
merely from the want of labour, but from the want
of a market v, hither the pro luct of that labour c,.uld
be carried, and because the funds applicable to ruo-
chidl relief weir rapidly crumbling away. N.)w the
proposed plan would not iis,i,t tlii.se tends. it might
place a certain quantity of nrini.•y At the disposakof
the overseers, but their it was to be recoisected that '
every parish which Accepted of such assistance con-
tracted a parochial debt. He v.ould su4gest the pro-
priety of dividing the resolution into two ctistinct pro-
positions, the one, for employing the lzior in places
where public works might be c irrying on ; the other,
for extending aid to particular parishes. His reasons
was, because there might be various opinims upon
those two points, and because it would be desirable
that in, any plan which should be advted, unanimity
should appear.
Sir E. BRYDGES concurred in the propriety of
tie proposed measure, and declared he should have
been glad if a greater sum had beea Jeterm:ned on.
Sir J. NEWPOIt adverted to the influence which
would probably be produced by the apprehensi,rn of
becoming liable to a Crown process. Ii Atteitts of
the Crown were so forrnidahle to persons who became
debtors of the Crown for objects or their own, was it.
hitely that many would be foUnd aiding to incur
such a liability for purposes of a merely charitable.
nature t He was afraid that consideration woi:11
vrove greatly detrimental to the operatirm of me
measure, unless some means weir adopted to guarl
against it. With regard to public works. such as
canals fOr instance, he believed, that any luau advan-
ced by the Crown would be reitwantly ie.:tired, for .
it might opi.rate to the injury cat the private creditor
of such wanks, and to the injury of his..security, in
CAS( on the Crown corning in 41.4 Creditor, upon, the '
ultimate Were of the design. He owned, he did.-
not see,iit present, how the proposed plan could have
any advantageous operation t at the same .time, be
was tar foam fe:ling any disposition to oppose a -
scheme t r ref evioe, tire ais.iessi sot the conntry.if it
had but the slightest probability'of being feasible.-
The CHANCELLOR. df the EXCHEQUER
observed, that it would be a provision in the Bill, that
the Crown should not -have priority over any other
creditor, except with the consent of the creditera.•
themsblves.
•Mr. BABINOTON said, that if the parishes be-
came manufacturers with Public funds, it would ba
contrary to all commercial principles, and private • '
manufacturers would not be 'able to compete .sith
them. That was an evil, in his opinion, the proba-
bility of which ought not be lost sight of. To employ
the poor upon public works, would be productive of
no harm, but he apprehended it would nut always be -

possible for parishes to find such employment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
replied, that these was no intention to exact at a CuA
dition, troth the p.riii:es which might .apply for aid, ~''
that they should use the-money prc,vich.ig - '
meat fur their poor. At the same time, it would be
highly desirable, that the whet granted should be, as '

muchas possible, in the shape us. work, leaving it ter
the parish to select the particular deacription of eat-. •
ployment. Generally speaking, he Apprehended,.
that public works, such as roads, buildings, Jaridges,,
canals, Sm. would be the kind of occupation selected„, •
as requiring merely labour, and nut any particular
kind of skill.
Mr. LY I"I'LETON said, he should not now in;
quire what rute,rit be the details of the Bill, or what
the djections dint might be urged, but tnede were
one or two points upon which he wished to s.ty a few .
words. Tne Right Hunoutable Gentlem,ll4- in his
opinion, had assumed certain facts which lie did not.
think were tenable. First, that the present distress ,
was greatly owing to the want of capital. He did .
not conceive that to be the case ; and indeed, as far •
as his information extended, in regard to that part of •
the•country with which he WAS more iminediictely
connected, 'he knew it was not. It WAS rather a
want of the means of employing capital, :tad ren.
derin& it productiver-(liear, irear).—lf that assomp.
ton were even—cor.Coed to use Right liotiourat:le
Gentleman,' it tiould still be a questilit wriether
loans might not b•.: ob6ined as advautagt:ou,ly in the
usual Way, as by the plat: &low proposed Mtn re-
spect to public works, he did not know what magic
there was in those words. 11 public w•rks were pro.
ductlve, private s&i:iiturers would still be. fohr.d
willing -mid able to prosecute, tlrehr—(licur,
As to fisheries, lie should waive any °Wei-yawn),
upon them, tor there Might poasilsly be some %vb.:3
only requited fund* to beiartied on with vigo t.
Wi.la regard to the distreis lelt is particular patislies, .
what was the nature of the "relict proposed to be ex..
tended to them ? to plain words, when a parish was
bankrupt, thep assistance wart to be afforded, ..nd for
which assistance its bankrupt funds were to be taken
is a security, unks*, inched, souse kind of iarconal
security was to be .siiiperadd:d. He should Ike to
know in hat sense the.it•ight Hon. Geo ie111.411 talked
ut personal security, Did flee use ,the expres;iou in
the meaning which *as coilimunry giaeli to It its the
commercial world ? Or did he look to the a..cutity or
real property ? Hes L pphotiendia he
ri probability.
en ibdi
jety: all that
point more fully. In aili n
I the scheme would be perfectly sugatcry,. as

.*

Tme tr. :he publii
And ISII Ad h Appel
t!`: nioney adv
commission ar
hods. The transa
advantageous to
vidualb immediate
Mist he practicable
stitlrat such a de
ti Srant, which
be neressary to en;
onintry, to know
a duty which wou
prospect nt rewar
appropriated to th
dospos..ll of the Lr
Imposes he had
ri•!t ut the plan
it hilt works, he 1
itg on the subjec
bat's Rates. H
could be done toi
Population by th
dt•n proposed to
ita scAs to such
that he could not
c odd be co far
as to recel
i.crent could wit
f!vo that loans to
tit Pool's Rites,
("wiling the fail
LS deficiency by
They might also
Rtes nt Ille Ives
verwise hod err
aii.l °I the Agri
tithe measure
tb:re would be
ariittit such an i
p.; 'Ales was nes
ea lost year, ant
pr osh except in
ef average of th,
litiitiTC did not
tel districts, it w
lief to that specie
• keen brought ur
wet V 1 coin .nun
the. Petition that
lobe) that the
tfitrated. Undo
554 he thought
!?el diet relief
lieillem,n (Mr
By this grant,
edit tueti.ap ittti
fa industry of
fl the means
which had mt&
the transition frr
bad materially ;
Itdus from this.
MOO= of •sm
teethe use of th
sided for our o
)ilt of such n.e
of peace,
Bnt it was in tl
magham had
pitttion of stet
that export ate
said) in 1814 t
and in 1816 ad
WAS Taber mot
reeling, while i
14e export of
trilglians, the
• 71 IEI4 i4"3011,
test to that c
bile it seas tt
fight Hon.
all!ing off Mac
lumitogham r
ex
w the pull)°,
believe that
as merely in
Ands of G
Tilde, that tc
i?n. In this
'I the ialorm
tlw tiadi
;Ton t
'stet that t
adorer; of I
vxistull
arts of the c
4,1 therefore
.eri,letice to
aYs aware ;
•ct: to afford
et"), lte
01141 toot be
t Wass sba
'CC weie n;
herefese it b
'wee Its 4j4
OLiy by
penditute,
°PlAJ—ftutai

I

howtvv,
s

' 0

~_...._
tale to parishes. Unless they could provide a markett,
for the produce of labour, unless they could revive the
commerce of the country, he did not see how the issue
of Excheqber Bills could be of any benefit, for they
would not create resources. , .
Mr. C. GRANI' said, the primary object of the
measure was to relieve the poor, and that was, at
• present, the only object of their consideration. The
mod.. of that relief would hereafter come before them.
No doubt, however,
it won't be preferable, that
whatever obi was bestowed should be as a fewsrd for
labour, rather than as a Mere gaatuity. Itovimld
keep up the moral habitsroof aibe people, and •tegeb
them industry. It certainby Would net be desirable
to extend our manufacturesiolne.the complaint now.
made was, that the supply lay eircreded the demand.'
It weuld Dot therefore be wise to meet the evil, by
increasing, still (either, that supply.
Sir M. W. lUD LEY inquired, whether, in lend-
ing money to parishes, personal security would be
required, in addition to the security of the poor rates
fond ; and whether the Commissioners to be appointed
were to act gratuitously I
. The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
replied, that personal security would certainly be de-
manded.. With respect to the Commissioners, he
hoped that as, on former occasions, persons of re-
spectability had been found willing to lend their ser-
vices gratuitously for the benefit of the poorothere
would net he less liberality manifested on the present.
Mr. BROUGIiAbt said, he agreed with what
had fallen from his Hon. Friend below .hiar (Mr.
Ponsoilby) and that it would be most .painful to his
fielinho, it lie 'should...find trinsself e.ompelled to sty
terpose'airo.obstaeles• hi the way of the pewit ince.i
tyre. It wcold. be arrogance in him, however, im-1
per'eoly .as 1* fet understood its nature, to argue
upon its genrral chat octet.; and he could only express
•-s hope that it might he found practicable, and celcuo,
listed to overcomes many of the objections to which it,
sgt first aispeored treble. At the.same rink he wished
to tali; 'tb at oppriituniiy of expressino, one Or two
doilliti that prevailediu his own mii.d. Intim first
place'. 'ea iritlieoninitee in which the money was to
he ~employed.. It was eirident, that it would be
chiefly, If not entioeTy,opplied to the promotion of
rioblic enarks. .No to the idea of parish officers been=
Ilk L:g manufaitoieto,:it was so preposterous, that its
ibstirdity. beedly requited to be illuatiated. It was
Impossibleehey shoulit be Able tqtcwyron any braise)
of manufacture, either with bensfit to Ow cilontotiit
Or comb at to thausselires. TIT idIA was equally.
_
.id
surd .also, as appl-cable to agrivOtbralai,ursuos. Puh
lic works, therefore, of some kieflocoalito. would,'
the objects to which the money must be applied-,-..
But 'nen a diffiroety immediately occurred. What
no 01 kept public works from going on f.--Was
it tie want of capitol solely ? He was afraid nut.—
He was &raid it was the wart of a demand for Feb:
lic works, and that canals, bridges, and roads,
.were
fir t now wanted, fOr the same reason that other pro-
ductions of labour were not wanted. If they were
found no longer to answer the views of private ad-
irenturers, it was not likely they would ever tempt
persons to become debtors of the Crown for the sake
of carrying them on. lf, on the other hand, they
were desirable simulations, wiruhl not the Money that
was necessary be borrowed-in 'the usual way 1 I.'or it
would have this advantage, that no Exchequer pro-
cess could be issued against the borrower, and it ap.
peered that the usual Crown preeess was to be em.
ployed in recovery of whatever sums might be leis.
With respect to canals, he believed there.was nothing
which' bad been more overdone in this .country than
that description of improvement. Besides. the *Ws.
lance in that way snot necessarily be very limited;
ft r be understood it was not unusual to expend halt
a million of money it he completion of a single ca-
nal. Then, as to roads and bridges; he believed there
was no slowness, even in the present distressed SLAW
of the country, in making roads where they were wan-
_ ted. The advawage was so evident, and the benefit
so immediate, that capital was seldom delicirnt.—.
Perhaps application might be made.for assistance to
&Ill) a briefs, or two, but even there his uteri hopes
were not very sanguine. Withuoigord to parordrill,
relief, he doubted whether any goelet advantage would
be derived horn 'hot past °Eloise-ppm.• He wouttl,
take Birmingham for example,
,froui which.ploce he,
bad that night presented a Petitini„rtisgned by opwarcks,
et 12,000 persons, who were out of employ. He
might fairly, however, estimate the male population
et
that town and its neighbourhood, who were ca-
pable of work,, at 26,000. According to the proposed
phiao by which the relief afforded to a parish was to
be in the.proportion of one-half of what it annually
paid in poors' rates within a certain period, Birming
ban/ would be entitled to receive only et 90,000, hav-
ing paid for some time past at the rate of 4'60,000 a
year for the relief of its pow. But suppose to that
were added £50.000 for a canal, a road. or a bridge.
The whole relief which that sum would afford, at ten
shillings a week-for labour, would only be to employ
20.)0 out of the 25,000 for oat year, and upon such
*ages as were hardly sufficient for the support of life.
He entertained considerable doubt riot° the probabi-
lity of ending respectable persons willing to accept
any such loans, under the obligation of entering into
recogaixances, or of being subjected to extents in aid.
Let the Right Bon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) be as rigorous as be pleased in look.
ins out for good securities, but at the lame time let
the mosey be advanced to those securities on the
same teems as any capitalist in the City of Loudon
would afford the loan. Unless that course was adopt-
ed, Corporations perhaps, with a view to Ilse jobbing
of favoured individuals, may accept the terms but
Ire was confident iadividuals, or associated bodies of
persons, would be extremely slow in committing
themselves to obligations so sev. re in their operation.—
.. ea was also solicitous to be intormed how the- dirol
trihution of thee: funds was to be managed. He
. a.ot disposed to indulge so harsh an opinion, that any'
undue influence in the application was intended, but
- he was cor-fident that estey thing depended on sods.
dying that House and the conptry - that •npne will aril
. .. could take place. He trusted', therefore, that such
A selection of Commissioners ~seas iisterided, sad es
Elie service was to be gratuitous, a selection could be'
well made of the must respectable and independent
characters, such as would give confidence to the',
expectations of the people. Sefore it were possible
to give effect to the decision of Parliament, that Wai
orobably at the end of'three or 4 months, the exercik
ss any' implorer Wham, cc even the suspicion of it

.. . . ..

••

LONDON. •

TO-MORROW THE LOTTERY BEGINS DRAWING-
MO RE THAN TWO PRIZES TO ONE BLANK-FOUR
OF TWENTY THOUSAND-TICKEIS UNUSUALLY
CHEAP.

TUESDAY, APKTL 29, 1817.
'PRICE OF sTocKs THIS DAY AT TWEI.VRO'CLOCK S.
Com. 72—Do. for Account, 72,15--Rellutod 71
a per Cest. Navy, 101114-.4 per Ceot. 117 f
Ezdeiver 84/14 lIIe. 20s. pc—lndia Donde 75 74 pea

The Plan of the CHANCIILLOR of the Exclaim=
tot the relief of the Poor came before the House of
Commons last night. The whole sem proposed to
be advanced for England, is a million and a ball,
by an inuenf Exchequer Bulls, by Commissioners to
be yet appointed; the money to be emplpyed in CoM•
plating •Publie Works now in progress, or about to
be commenced; in encouraging the Fisheries; and
in providing employment for the Poor in different
'Parishes. The money intended for Parishes is to be
advanced on chi Poore' Rates. In no case are the
Commission:, to advance more than halt the sum
raised by the Poore' Rates in the preceding year, and
the money is only' to` to lent to Parishes in which
those rates in the last Tear have been made double
what they were on the average of the three years an-
tecedent to it. It will hence be seen that the Com-
asissioaers bare the tower of advancing to a Parish
thus circumstanced, a sum equal to the ordinary an-
nual produce of its Poore Rates.
The sum to be advanced for Ireland is two bun.
drcd and fifty thousand pounds—to be issued out of
the Consolidated Fund. for the completion of works
of a public nature.
From the plan eubmitted, it will be seen that these
disbursements do not constitute a national Poor Rate,
in addition to the Parochial Rates. Securities ard to
be duly taken en the Loans; nor ill the burthen of
the general Taxes be increased by thy considerable
losses. In one word, if means be 4004 ie remive
rdm tears expressed by some 4 that theism, maybe

converted into means of influence at the expected
General Election, it is not easy to see any solid ob-
jection that can be urged to the measure; and much
public benefit may be expected to result from it.
They are mistaken, however, that can persuade
themselves that loans from the community to indivi-
duals or portions of the family will instantly re-
move the causes of our general distress—nor can
the staress be remedied till the cause ..be, removed,
of its. operation in some degree neutralized by
the counteraction of other causes. You need ei-
lber a diminished expenditure or an increased re-
venue. These two terms are precisely of the Same
value and import, in examining a question of this
kind, nor can any fallacy or disguise of language
change their quality. Is their any absolute want of
property in the country ? NI such thing : we have
every acre of land that we ever had ; the rain pours
down as freely es in times past. and the Sun and
Moon run their course to ripen the products t.f the
earth, as regularly as ever. As to the riches under
the surface of our soil, they are as mach within
our power as ever—nay more, by the extended
powers of our machinery. Is there any want of
moveable property ? So far frorti this being the
fact there are millions now unoccupied, and means
are wanted for their employment. Do we want
ships ?—do we need sailors ? The former we have in
such abundance that many are rotting in our Ducks—
the latter in such numbers that they are wandering
over the whole country.

Let not the tact then be disguised, for while you
shut your eyes you will never think of applying a
proper remedy. Your Poor Rates and your 'fazes
have been suffered to operate, taken together, as
heavily as ever, while a general derangement of all
your commercial relations has taken place and re-
coiled upon your Agricultaralists, while the necessary
accompaniumst of this derangement, an increase of
the number of hands ash° cannot find productive
employment, is daily aggravating the evil.
Can retrenchment in your National expenditure be
instantly effected to such an extent as shall turn the
scale ?—No—Niit at present. This is not the work
of a d3y. To deny its necessity would be obstinacy,
nor have any been so absurd To maintain that be-
cause its recessity is admitted, its accomplishment
needs but to be willed, is equally foolish. The mon-
strous expenditure was incurred by too long a course
of extravagance to be cured in a week or a month.
You have begun retrenchment—pursue it—hut you
must seek and you may find speedy relief, in per-
forming an act of justice in relation to the operation
of the other source of your malady--tbe Poor Rates.
When the community resumed the hada which
had been wrung from them by priestcraft, to the ex-
tent of more than a fourth part a the best land of
the kingdom, it was soon found, that as the funds of
the previous landholdcrir( the Monasteries) were taken
from them, it was absolutely necessary that the new
proprietors should be burtheaed with the maintenance
of the poor that were formerly supported by the Mo-
nasteries—hence our poor laws. Did the Monks for-
merly maintain the poor out of mere charity ? M—
ule maintenance they gave rose out of the necessity of
the case. Land was the only property of the country
at that times they bad no choice; for the land is the
natural support of its inhabitants; ant had they,
withheld the support, it is very probable they would
much sooner have been deprived of the Lordship
than they were.
When provision was made by law for the Poor,
ihe contribution was levied on property. There was
no property then but land.; and hence the load has
ever since been chiefly levied from thit species
of property. Had funded prated), then existed, it
would have been subjected to its tats proportion of
the burthen ; but its future creation could not even
be contemplated. While this species of property
continued to bear only a small proportion to the
other, its exemption produced, comparatively, but
small inconvenience; for it was in the power of the
farmer to shift a proportionate share of the load from
himself by enhancing the price of his produce. But
as the dividends from the funds increased in magni-
tude, his power to be the rateleathffer for the others be-
came proportionably diminished, while his ability and
that of the rest of the community (not fundholders)
became daily diminished by their actually furnishing
in taxes (besides their poor rates) the very money
that formed the dividends to the Stockholders! 1
That is—the spare profits of their lands front which
alone they could maintain the poor, are first taken from
them in the shape of taxes to be divided among the
Fund-holders, and yet they alone are required to
maintain thixe by whose boJily exertion the whole
has been produced, while the Fund-holder is charged
only to the extent of the rent of his dwelling! Asto-
nishing absurdity 1 which needs. only to be steadily
looked at to be as discernable as the sun at noon Jay.
If you go on with your quackery and your pal-
liatives any longer, you will be ruined past help of
remedy. Boldly meet the evil. and apply the
propriate remedy. Till this is done, there can be
no such thing as that just diffusion of property
which forms the health of a Community—that
necessary return for the esetticns of industry,
without which there can be no prosperity. The
tendency of every system of unequal pressure is
to augment daily the wealth of the protected party.
at the expense' of the rest of the•community. But •
what is the sum of this expense to them ultimately
Their utter ruin—they must sell their possessions to
those who can buy them—to those into whose pockets
the present system must, ere long. send the whole
excess of our industry ! Nay, not only the excesubet
el.e whole capital that produces it !
In the early part of the evening Sir HINAY Pen-
cm. presented the Catholic Petition, upon the subject
of which some conversation took place ; and -Mr.
WiLaisaleaCa presented a Petition from the Acade-
mical Institution, a license to which has lately been
reiusekby the London Magistrates. This Petition
was wail received, it being admitted by Mr. Ba-
rman that there was no intention of putting down
all political discussion under the Sedition' Meetings'
Bill. A similar admission, it will be.seen, was made
37 Lad SitmeNph in the tiler: of Lords.

I
•