Star.
London, England, 1827-03-07 00:00:00

ADJOUENED DEBATE ON THE CATHOLIC CLAIMS.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved the Order of the Day
respecting the Adjourned Debate on the Catholicelaims.

The motion having been carried,
Sir JOHN NEWPORT declared that it was his
film belief that no other measure than Catholic Emanci-
pation would give peace and happiness to Ireland. He
would not attempt to argue with any Honourable Gen:
tleman,who, like the Honourable Member for Clitheroe,
could undervalue the connection between the two coun-
tries, England and Ireland ; but when the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dublin (Mr. Moore), denied that Ireland was in
the wretched state she was repreiented to be, he would
not ask that Hon. Gentleman to take a leaf out of his
(Sir INewport's) book, but he would refer him to the
statement of the Honourable Member fur Derry
(Mr.g. Dawson). That Honourable Gentleman had pro-
posed, or at least so plainly hinted at it, that his meaning
could not be misunderstood, that violence and force
instead of concession should be had recourse to, to calm,
the irritation and to remedy the misery and dissension
existing in Ireland. it was evident that some decisive
measure must be adopted. Ireland could not exist in
the state she then was, and if the opponents of Emanci-
pation had no other alternative to offer than a recur-
rence to those desolating measures, which in former
times had weakened England, and rendered Ireland a
scene of anarchy and dire confusion, he would ask that
House if it was ready to adopt the doctrine of the ex-
clusionists, and if it were, by what reasoning it could
justify such an appeal to violence ? Again, he would
ask, if the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Derry
was rejected, and those agreeing with that Hon. Gen-
tleman,
had another plan to offer, would it not become
the duty of that House to entertain with favour the re-
solution then before them, and to adopt the system of
conciliation, which would give peace, content, and hap-
piness, to a distracted country ?—(dear, hear.) If the
opponents had any other plan to propose, he had a right
to demand a full developement of it, but he would
conjure them to reflect before they again hinted at
setting fire to the train and blowing all to the
devil together."— The momentous question then be.
fore the House had often been discussed, and as often
as it had been rejected an often had the condition
of Ireland assumed a more dangerous and alarming
appearance. He confessed that he.anticipated nothing
but unmixed evil unless emancipation were granted,
And he earnestly conjured the House to reflect well
and deeply before it sanctioned adverse measures.—
The violence of the Roman Catholic Association
had been loudly complained of, but that violence
and that Association were the natural consequences
to the preseut unjust, ungenerous system. An oppres-
sed people would find some way of Living vent to
their t clings, and of expressing the wrong, they suf.
'feted ; .n.. 1 he made that remark, not in vindication' of
use proceedings of the Catholic Association, but to re-

mind the House how fallacioug all the assurances had
proved..which had been given when a Bill was intro-
duced for the suppression of Catholic Association,.
When a Bill to which he had allude 4 was inttoduced;
the House was assured that that measure would stifle
all such associations, and. yet after a,. short interval.of
time, the inefficiency of that very
.1411 was complained
of, and the Catholic Associ:tion again existed in fall
violence. The same result would attend the pursuing
of the system suggested by the Hon. Member for
Derry—(Hear, hear).—The Legislature had not wavier
to overwhelm and choke public opinion, nor was it
desirable that it should have any such power in a fad:
country. For his own part he had arrived at that pe-
riod of life. when he could hope for a decision of the
question favourable to the Catholics, only because he
from his heart believed that it would give tranquillity
to Ireland.
Mr. HART DAVIS said, that there was on- point in
the statement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman
lebteh he wished to correct. When the lilt for the sap.:
pression of the Roman Catholic Associat on was intro-
duced, no assurance was given to the House that it
would effectually do away with such Associations; .01'
the contrary, it was intimited that it was buttoo probable
some further measures wonld be required—(Heasslairer).
He objected to the course pursued by the Hone Baronet
(Sir F. Burdett), in bringing forward the questitn. The
plan of proposing a resolution might be adopted to '
catch a stray vote; but .why walnut a Bill brougbt tot-
ward so that the House might understan hat cone
ti-
sions the Catholics as an:en 7—He did not. understand
what he was called upon to grant, and he trusted that
the House would not give its countenance to such a
proposition. The question had been continually
cussed in that House for the last twenty years, and he
found that every fresh concession served o ly as a step-
ping-stone to new demands. He remembered the time
when it was positively 'and publicly stated by an au-
thorised deputation, that if once the Navy and Army
ware thrown opento the Catholics they would be satis-
fied. Those Pr ofessinns had however been thrown open,
and a number of other privileges had been gra .ted to
them, and not only were they not yet satisfied, but they
seemed to demand, violently demand, everything. He
was one of those who thought some bouniary necessary,
and therefore he could never consent to so vague and
indefinite a resolutiolas that before the House; but if
the friends of concession would bring forward a Bill,
stating fully what was required, the question would be
fairly argued. He had most seriously reflected on the
subject, and he felt it to be his duty to give the most de-
cided negative to the resolution proposed, and in doing
so to state to the House, that a large portion of
.the nu-
merous body of constituents he had the honour to re-
' present fully concurred with him in opinion—(Hear.)
Lord ELLIOTT trested that he should meet with the
indulgence of the House, as that was the first time he had
'ever intruded himself on its ettention--(Hear). During
the lest Pairliadient he had given his vote against grant-
ing any further concessions to the Catholics; but an the
interval which had elapsed since the question was last
brought forward, he bad seriously devoted his best at-
minion to the subject, and the consequence was that his
opinion was changed—(Loud cheers from the Oppo-
sition). He firmly believed that the tranquillity of Ire-
land depended upon the measure being adopted,•and
therefore the sooner it was carried the better. Whatever
dangers might attend the gra sing of the Ronaan
Catholic Claims, the evils which must result from their

not being granted, would be much greater. He was
not sanguine though to expect that the amicable ad-
justment of even this great question would give Leland
perfect peace; out he was convinced; that it would not
only prevent her condition from becoming worse, but
actually produce a most favourable alteration. Among
other benefits it would enable every one to distinguish
between those who were demagokies and those who
were real lovers of their country. That the Priests
might have exercised an improper power he did not
deny ; but he should vote in favour of the Resolution,
because it would prevent a recurrence of such an inter-
ference—(Hear, hear!) He could not but take that
lopportunity of declaring the regret he felt at hawing
voted for the exclusion of the Roman Catholic Peers
from Parliament, and most happy should he be to see
that noble and illustrious Body restored to those privi-
leges of which they had been so long deprived. He
again apologized to the House for intruding on its time,
but he felt it to be his duty not to content himself with
a silent vote, but to declare openly the change which
had taken place in his opinions.—(Heir !)
The MASTER of the ROLLS said, that bet: re en-
ticing upon the question before the Hon e, he could
not but express his admiration of the noble, pi en, and
ingenious course pursued by the Noble Lord who had
just addressed it—(Hear, hear). It was the duly of
every Memb rof that Hona to state: his opinions with
frankness upon this most important question, and he
trusted that, as the representative of a distinguished and
numerous body of constituents, be :slight be permitted
to state the conclusions he had arrived at, and the con-
siderations which had induced those conclusions.—
(Hear). The question had been so often discussed, that
he did not venture to hope he should add any novelty
to what had already been advanced. A great crisis
was then before the HOuse—(Loud cheers). The eyes
of the country were fixed upon it; the great mass of the
Protestant population looked with anxiety for the re-
sult of its deliberations; and the great man of the
Roman Catholic population might be said to await
its decision even with a more intense anxiety.—
(Hear.) But whatever might be the result of that de-
bate, whether for good or for evil, if the discussion
was conducted with temper—if the deliberation used
was serious and sincere—and, if opinions were delivered
with truth and honesty—the result of that debate would
fairly and fully claim the acquiescence of all parties as
to its authority and its worth—(Hear.) From the way
in which the resolution was brought forward, it was
evidently intended that the question stniuM be. fully
diacussed. For twenty years the question had agitated
the Empire, and the Roman Catholics having advanced
step by step, sow demanded to be admitted into Par-
nd to such offices in the State, with the excep-
tion of a very few, which they were at present excluded
1,911. There was, however, one thing extraordinaiy

F

I

t

1►

the Pruett debt Phbeasanestkos. 'the Protestants
were put upon the defame. They weeecisergod with
bigotry and oppression: they were charged with those
very vice% which used of old to be laid to the accoMat
of the Roman Catholics--(Hear.) He was at a loss to
account for such a charge. But was there any justice
in the charges thus pref rred against the Protestants
When Honourable Gentlemen told him of the laws
Whlch had been passed to the prejudice of the Roman
Catholics, they • kept out of sight the transactions
which gave rise to those laws; Cr if they touched upon
them at all, they did so very lightly, and intimated that
those who made them had been deceived, had been led
to frame them through deception and delusion, and
therefore they argued that they ought no longer to be
continued in force. Why until within the last twenty
years our Protestant ancestors who had framed those
Lows had been revered as the friends of liberty and
as the champions of independence--(Hear, hear.)—
bnt within these last twenty years, those who bad
before been regarded and admired at the benefactors
of their country and the founders of her Constitution,
bad been looked upon by some as bigots, as iatolerants,
and as persecutors.-4 Cheers.) Some vindication, then,
of those laws seemed necessary, and he would, there-
fore, direct the attention •of the House to the occasions
which had called for them, and the absolute necessity
there was for their adoption. Were the laws, which
were passed in the reign of Elisabeth. passed from vague
fears and doubt?—were they the result of unfounded
leers and apprehensions ? No, those laws were caused
by the dreadful sufferings which bad been endured in
the short reign of Mary ; and it was for the purpose of
• preventing a recurrence of the atrocious and hart-rend-
sag scenes which then transpired that they were enacted.
Those who framed them were spectators of those dread-
ful scenes; and they were likewise spectators of what
was passing in France and in the Netherlands. They
felt that the Roman Catholics of that period (he meant
no reflection on those of the present day) were labouring
to overturn the Government of this country, and that
too in concert with the most bigotted and despotic Go.
iternment that ever existed, which was that of Spain.—
(Hear, hear!) He Would pass from that period to the
- reign of James. In that reign fresh laws were enacted,
wool among others was that which imposed the Oath of
=lance. Those laws and that oath were not ins-
for the purpose of irritating, taunting, and op-
reeling the Roman Catholics, but they were passed in
consequence of one of the most atrocious attempts
that bad ever been made to destroy the freedom
and the religion of this country. That oath was
imposed to counteract the effects of Popish intrigues.
which were directed to the subversion of the Pro-
testant Establishment. Again, when the framers of
those laws to which he had alluded were charged with
bigotry, let him call the attention of the House to the
. frightful picture which Ireland presented in the reign
of Charles, in the year 1641. When they and their
predecessors were charged with intolerance, let him
call the attention of the House to the dreadful scene of
desolation and bloodshed which Ireland presented at
that period through the ,maskinations of Popery--
• (Lbw, hear). Was it then, wonderful, that those
who had beep spectators of those fearful days, should
.• have endeavoured to avert their return, and have pass.
. ed those acts—call them acts of severity, if you
which had been described as displaying bigotry and
• latoltrance ?.--(Hear. hear). From that period of de-
t ',repletion he rnight pass on to the Revoluuisn. It was
tlseoasequence of the nefarious schemes. *Lich had
• taken place during the latter part of the reign of Charles
the Second, that the people of England saw the dangers
. and perils with which Popery was. endeavouring to
environ them; and it was to the successful resistance
of those schemes and of those endeavours that England
might attribute the possession of the glorious free•
dom and unrivalled Constitution which she at this
day posseued,--(Cheers). But why did he advert to
those facts which were recorded in the page of history?
Not to cast a reflection upon the Catholics of the present
day—No, Goo forbid, that he should for an instant even
think of such a design—(Loud cheering) but to prove to.
the House that their ancestors were not those bigots and
intolerant. which some persons of the present time en-
deavoured to make them appear. And if in the olden
times such lees only had been adopted as were neces-
sary for the salvation of the freedom of the country, and
for the protection of the Protestant Church, so also was
true.that in modern times every law had been re-
pealed which an alteration of circumstances had ren-
dered unnecessary for the maintenance of the same ends.
Every law affecting the exercise of religion had been
abrogated, and all civil disqualifications which could
. hosiers) with happiness and independence had been re-
moved—(Hear, hear). The question now was, not
titether Roman Catholics should be allowed to pursue
their religion, aid to be protected in their different avo-
cations ? but it was simply one of expedience. The Ro-
man Catholics laboured under no disqualification which
checked their prosperity as individual members of the
community ; and the question before the House was,
whether it was wise to admit them to take a pact in the
deliberations of Parliament, and to fill' some of the
highest offices of State? It could not therefore be
considered as a question of necessity. but it must be re.
gartfed, as he nsaintained it was, a question entirely of
expediency—(Hear, hear). And be would not hesitate
to say, such was his anxiety to attempt to give peace to
Ireland, that if it could be proved that further maces-
along could be granted without danger to the State and
the supremacy of the Protestant religion, he should be
most ready to make them. He was perfectly aware
that the other side of the question had been supported
by men whose genius was an honour to the country
which had produced them; but nevertheless he did not
feel depressed from that consideration, because he was
perfectly convinced himself, and he firmly believed the
majority of that House would agree with him in think.
ing that in principle he agreed with those illustrious
characters to whom he alluded. The first name which
be should mention and which had hitherto been quoted
as an overwhelming authority on the other side was that
of one of the greatest men that this 'or any ether coun-
try had ever produced. He meant Mr.lPitt—(Chems).
The House and the country had continually been told
that that illustrious Statesman was favourable to grant.
mg further concessions to the Catholics. He perfectly
remembered reading the speech of Mr. Pitt upon the,
union of Ireland to this country. He remembered,,
also. that one of the arguments used to induce the adop.
'
lion of that great measure, was. that it would tend to
facilitate Catholic Emancipation—that it would enable,
England to grant that concession more easily. Bat what'
course did Mr. Pitt take ? why, he expressly stated that
Emancipation could never be granted unless sufficient
and adequate security was given by the Roman Catho-
lics against foreign influence and against the united and
combined system between Catholics--tbat anima ouch,

cos of

'

he goillamtver gamut that they s.._
o finberritilign tad to bold*, great
That language was in print; n was the
..guagit of Mr. Fitt, and therefore it was evident that
that great man never would have granted Emancipa-
tion to the Roman Catholics unless they brought for-
ward sufficient secority—(Hear, hear). The same doc-
trine was enforked by Lord Grenville. And what was the
security which presented itself to his Lordship's mind ?
Why, that the Crown should be able to apply it. Veto
in the appointment of the Roman Catholic Bishops.—
He did not mean to say whether such a security would
lave been efficient or not, but he noticed it as contend-
iag for the principle of security, and that Mr. Pitt was
so authority against the opinions which he entertained.
There was another name, Mentions alike in the annals
of eloquence and in the annals of patriotism, which had
also been quoted by the other side as a great authority,
to meant the name of Grattan. But what did Mr.
Grattan himself say in his recorded declarations? Why,
he said, that he never proposed to maintain that further
concessions should be granted to the Roman Catholics,
without their offering a competent security against foreign
influence; end he added, that unless such security was
tendered, chit country did but justice to its Constitution
in pefudng them any further favour. So that• Mr. Grat-
tan, like Mr. Pitt, was the advocate of the aecessity of
sufficient tecurity being given by the Roman Catholics
before they were admitted to further power—(Hear,
hear). He went one step further, he came to the name
of a Nobleman who was now no mere, but who a few
years since had greatly influenced the proceedings of
that House, and who bait devoted his best efforts to the
forwarding of the Roman Catholic cause. He alluded
to the late Marquis of Londonderry, than whom the
Roman Catholics had never possessed a mere strenuous,
sincere, and indefatigable friend—(Cheers). Bat that
Noble Lord was the same as he was in the cause, and
had never thought of maintaining that Emancipation
ought to be granted without ample security being given
against foreign influence. He stated that we must have
security—not of oaths alone, bin solid and substantial
security against the intrusion of foreign influence—
(Hear, hear). He then came to the eminent men of the
present day, who added lustre to the debates of that
House, by the integrity of their principles, and the splen.
dour f their talents. The first man to which be should
allude, was that of his Right Hon. Friend, the Secre-
tary for Foreign Affairs, whose powerful genies greatly
influenced the proceedings of that House, and whose
authorit was most justly of no mean description (Hear,
hear). Ills Right Hon. Friend had over and over again
insisted on the necessity of sufficient security, and had
repeatedly expressed the impossibility of his consenting
to grant any further concessions to the Roman Catholics
without ample security being given against foreign
indorses. He bad also another Right Hon. Friend of
his within his view, who had so often argued the ques-
tion with amusing brilliancy, and who had but very
recently displayed in the cause an astonishing power
of eloquence, sarcasm, and ingenuity, but even be (the
Right Hon. Attorney General for Ireland) had always,
held that the Romeo Catholics must afford security'
against foreign influence before they ought to be ad-
mitted to the stations they now required.,—(Cheers.).....
Were, then, all these great authorities, so much relied,
upon by the other tide, for or against him ? He
should maintain that they were noes and the anticipas
riots that the House would agree with him in iniona
the. more especially if be should prove thit the. Romeo
Catholics bad always refused to give the security **Se
great men bad held to be necessary.—(Hirar.)—Having,
'stated thus much, he would call the attention of the
Howe to the amine of the security requisite; and also
1w would ask the question, are the Roman Catholics
inclined to give us security ? Let that question be an.
swered by an examination of their conduct since 1808.
In thatyear a proposition respecting security was aged
by the Catholics, and a Bill founded upon that proposition
was introduced by Mr. Grattan. That bill, moreover,
was introduced by Mr. Grattan in consequence of an
understanding he had with some of the heads of the
Roman Catholic Church. In a short time, however,
Mr. Grattan was obliged to come down to the House,
and declare that he could proceed no further with the
Bill. Mr. Grattan stated, that when last he came down
to that House, he had said he was authotised to propose
as a security that the King should have, not an abso-
lute Veto in the election of the Roman Catholic Bi.bops,
but that the election should be under his influence to a
certain extent. He added that he was sorry to say he
could not longer affirm that the Catholics were willing
to offer that security.--Whether he had been mistaken,
or whither the Bishops had retracted, Mr. Grattan did
not state, for it was the rule with thit great man never
to defend his own conduct or reputation at the expense
of any portion of his countrymen.—(Hear, hear.)
In 181$, Mr.Grattaa, together with the Right Honour-
able Secretary for Foreign Affairs, brought in another
Bill, which it was hoped would prove successful, as
it was founded on the principle of adequate security.
Again the leading point was, that the election of the
Bishops should be under the influence of the Crown,
and Mr. Grattan pledged himself that he had authority
to make the proposition. Before, however, that Bill had
passed she House, the Roman Catholic Bishops had a
meeting, in which they strongly reprobated its prin-
ciples, and declared that it placed them in s worse con
-
Alden than they should be if the Penal Lawf were re-
viited. That then was a second retraction on the part
of the Roman Catholics, and yet the Protestants were
to be charged with being bigots and intolerants, because
they refused to confer the most important privilege on
a class of men who refused to give any adequate security
in return.—(Louticheering.) The Bill of 181$ was
lost to consequence of the conduct of the Roman
Catholic Bishops, and he would pass over the interme•
diate time which elapsed between that period and 1625,
when the last Bill was introduced. He repeated that
it was monsttously unjust to charge the Protestants
with bigotry and intolerance, when they only asked for
that which the most strenuous advocate for Roman
Catholic Emancipation, declared they were bound to
demand. If such a demand, however, was necessary
at the outset, it had become more so now than ever,
for the Catholics bad shewn themselves adverse to
complying with it, and be was firmly of opinion
that they never would do so. He thought, too,
that the House would be of the same opinion.—
(Hear!) He would then notice the Bill of 1825. That
Bill was not hastily prepared. It was well considered;
it west} well weighed by Catholics, as well as by the
Protestants who introduced it, and therefore it showed
at once what kind of security the Catholics were its.
dined to give. The oath of 1795, bound every Catholic'
holding a place to do nothing to alter the state of pro.
petty in Ireland. Wag it nothing that in the Bill of
1625, that most important and vital pm of the oath'
was omitted ? la the oath of 1794 ems them

(Creches* cleaunistasees ealstemed to iftsy their
_? Were they to dhpeose with seetnitiekab
found such language used by those who exetwiweld
unbounded influence, Bot it would, he ksxw, be
this was only the language of individuals,
and
_ to be placed in oppesition to the claims of
, and the argument, he must admit, was speeioe:
If, indeed, he found Ireland rencmiking tin men, and
denying all community of sentiment with them,
would readily admit that his argurnent.wis one
be ought not to preis—tiond chem)Z.Bet if be /mod
the men who used this language the objects of revers
praise, and the language itself the theme of „utak
commendation ; if, above all, be found that the
&tame of the men who employed such language ,g
rather increased than difitioished by it-_then he said
bad a right to infer the general prevalence of tong/Joist
sentiment, and to take. the individuals as a wolfof the nation—(Load and long conkinued
In the sentiments he had expressed, it was a satisfaition
to him to know that he bid but re-echoed the sentiment;
of the illustrious body which he represented—(d slot
cough on the Opposition lide of the House, followed be
general and tumultooisi cheers )zta body (tominril
i
the Right Hob. Gent. with ncreaged energy), Nun,
eminent for leaning. for loyalty, and for virtue; a bode
in which the love of science, and the love of their mai:
try, mutually illustrated and ennobled each other„
(Load cheers). The lion. and Learned Gentkmio
wile bad attempted, not indeed by words, but by
gesture, to throw a sarcasm upon this body, was is.
spited, no doubt; by the recollection that he had him
self been a competitor for the favour of this distinguitiod
body, and had bean distanced in the race—(Hear). ge
had oalleavoaretito shew that the Blunt ious individuals
wham authority bad been referred to, bad never hit
sight elite nereerity for ample securities for the Pro.
testant Church, wand to induce the Howse to conform to
their example. What was it (he continued) that Wai
asked? What concessions were those which were required
of them? What wu the nature of the subject on which
they were met? What was the language of the King's
writ, under the authority of which they were assembled ?
That writ summoned them to consult upon the AM
of the State and of the Church, and they were now called
upon to admit Catholics to join in their deliberation,
upon the affairs of that Church to which they were boo.
tile, and to which. if conscientious men, they me ed
necessity be hostile. After the passing of the Act by
which the 40s. freeholders wete enabled to vote, it test
publicly promulgated that the represeosation of haat
would be in the hands of the Clergy. This boast us
at the last election verified by the fact. The Bill of
1E25, for disfranchising the 40s. freeholders, vu
opposed by the Catholic Hierarchy ; and why ? be.
cease it would deprive them of that power which
they one day hoped to turn to the elevation of tbeit
own, and the overthrow of the Protestant Church..
What was the description which one of the Rama
Catholic Bishops had given to the Protestant Chuck
Ireland ? He had said that she was not the spew
the Repulse., but the handmaid of the Ascendancy
that when rebuked, she was humble—when encoura

arrogant—and had indulged in aunty other etprest
of contempt and abhorrence. What mightbe the
sequence if a considerable number of Catholic to
hers were introduced into that House P He was

to say that there were already many lukewarm fries
and be feared also some decided enemies of the P
team Church, and if an additional mass of power a
combined with these, would not the Protestant Chu
be subject to perpetual assault? It was not enmy
as bad been well remarked by the- Hon. Member
Corfe Castle, to know that they should be able to re
these attacks, it was not fit that the Church of Engle

should be perpetually exposed to them If this powerfc
phalanx should at any time happen to be headed by
man possessing the energy and talent of his Rig
Honourable Friends were they, he would ask, preps
to encounter the danger which most arise him soc
a combination ? He feared be bad tteapassed ahead
too long upon the patience of the Hose—.(Loo
cheers). It bad been said that the sate of Ireland to
quired some remedy, and it bad been asked what t
medy other than granting the claims of the ROAM
Catholics they had to prepense. And it had farther been
said that in Austria and in 'France no didinctioa a
account of religion existed. 'With respect to the law
argument he should only observe, that in Austria sod
France the Dignitaries of the Church were appointed b:
the Sovereign, and that in those countries all compote,
deuce with Rome was subject to the superintendencecai
Government. In Ireland, on the contrary, they had u
Hierarchy appointed without the consent of the Crownv
carrying on a constant correspondence with the See e,
Rome, tree from all superintendence on the put cf
the Crown, and exercising, at the same time, an tio•
controuled influence over six millions of the sib'

',km of the Crown—Wear, Lear), Theie was tbes
D. 'Many between the two cases. To those wbc
enquired for sone ether remedy to the evils Aid;
▪ Ireland, and who insisted that they rgait:
age Mod where they were, but men either W
"••• err le bark he wield ask if it were mall? I!"
tilik to boe” that this neeastwe could calm the ague
Lion of Ireland ? Gentleman shoeld act w'r I
aikated state of Leland as an ark to the Hog
vnebont showing that thethepropoardmeasure week'
the idiect of okaying it. The effect of this
be believed, would be a great explosion et fint, a
explosion of wimple on the part of the Catholics
went, and on the part of the Protestants a Ifni
consciousness that they were webdned—(Hear).
would perhaps be succeeded by a temporary
But permanent tranquillity. no asan who cons'
the subject meld aspect to be the conseepteoce
Catholic religion was essentially a religion of sec
teens --(bear)—aid the Catholic Hierarchy now dee
the possession of their church in the hands of heretin
He should Woe then to know if that Hier:say. poi!'

ins as it did unbounded indeesee, would Mail lie
land to be tranquil tiliCatholic Emancipation had bee
followed by Catholic doeniintleo. He might be come
VI rest this part of his argument upos, the nature 0
man—but be could refer to express testimoob
and ti
testimony which, upon this subject, was of the Wee.
authenticity. The Bishop of Kildare had said io teen
in a pamphlet of which he was the author, that means
patios might do mach, but mot* more remained ti b
dose. TU question then was, not whether a few Cr
tholic Peers or Costumers shall be admitted into Pat
liniment, bet whether the Protestant Church shall cur
tiatte to exist in 'Mead ? He exhorted the House the
not to be away t the question they had to deters'
was sothiag less important than the existence of 61
Protestant Establishment. He knew that may we
were even now ready to join issue upon that q '
and-if this. Bill passed, be had no doubt that the
cm"
argument which was now founded upon past

•
table. ward, apd ovary. opt whcrhad-
altasa4l-•tot this Wire
vidence gives. before the I,ords Commitbleha the suspiehons
of beland, must be deeply impressed with a prise, they found
stir • importance ; the words to which be alluded such unba
" I Jo swear to maintain to the utmost of my said, that I
ri the provisions of Ole Act of Settlement." Was ought not
ion* aware that in the Bill of 1825, this part of nation, an
• 10 • .1

itai_frosid again be adeatmed—they would hereafter,
they had been told upon this occasion, that
!,.lu7 too o late to Make it, stand, and that having
, far, it was incumbent upon them to
f:ther—(Lod cheerlng). If he were asked what
be proposed, his only answer would be that he was not
a comber of his Ma,jetty's Government--(Loud cheers).
led that it would be useless and mischievous in him
tstempt any answer to the question. But when he
it
t; asked to make concessions, he would in reply de.
wad smoky, because he felt it his duty to take care
ikst concession and security should keep an equal pace
(gear, bear). He would repeat that upon the basis
Jamitate security he was ready to concur in conces-
acu, but they must be such securities as would: effec-
olgy guarantee the permanency of the Protestant
ova in her unimpaired rights and dignity. He had
Isia to apologise to the House for having drawn so
to open its indulgence, but h had spoken his sin-
'cre and conscientious opinions. It was not, unlikely
lad be might be followed by his Right Hon. Friend,
AttornerGentral for Ireland. and if it was possible
limy man to suggest the means of reconciling con-
imiots to the Catholics with the security of the Pro-
{goat Church, he knew no one better qualified than
yin flight Hon. Friend. He knew that, widely as he
dined from his Right Hon. Friend, he should have
froth him full credit for infcerity..CThe Right Hon.
Greildnan then sat down amidst loud cheering from
ceerypiiiticf the Home.]
Mr. PLUNKETT listened in vain to the eloquent
oscli of hie Right Hon. Friend, in order to learn the
owe object which he had view; for at one time he
mooted the present state of Ireland as much as him-
ofrat another be expected, in his zeal against priestly
mchinations, to hear him introduce Guy Faux and his
littera, and the whole bugbear imagery of the Gen-
poder Plot.--(Laughter.)—His Hight Hon. Friend
wished fur securities not more than he did, but these
securities mast be sought after; therefore the House
should agree to the Honourable Baronet's Resolutions.
The Bill of 181$, and 1822, and 1825, contained
cline securities ; and if he (Mr, Plunkett) thought the
we cession of the Catholic Claims tended to injure
tiefistablished Chutch, no man would more zealously
oppose them. He was surprised to hear Mr.lPitt's
same cited by the opponents of the measure, as one
(*their side; for if there were any principle of that
great man's political Creed undoubtable, it was his
advocacy of the Catholic Claims. It was therefore, a
not audacious Forgery in the so called Pitt Club, who
net to celebrate the principles of exclusiveness and
illiberality, and not for the large minded purposes of
Mr. Pitt, to assume his name, and rob his fame of its
characteristics. A Nuble Lord (Eldon) had said, that
be doubted if Mr. Pitt had been able to devise securities
against admitting the Catholics to power ; and why,
because Mr. Pitt never mentioned them to him; in fact,
never was dolt and idiot enough to mention them to the
man who would have placed every possible obstacle in
their way. Mr. Pitt held out Emancipation as the boon
of the Union of inland and England, declaring that rilk
eaprejudiced English Parliament would grant that
which the local legislature would be too biassed to grant.
How did the question stand now? Why. the Irish
Members were more than two to one in its favour, and
the only obstacles lay in the prejudices of the English
people, These prejudices were daily dirnioishiug,
The No Popery' cry had failed at the late election, and
the cause of truth and justice was making daily convene.
His Right Hon. Friend's only ovosition to Emanci-
pation lay in the absence of sufficient security ; 'fhb*
L'rd Liverpool declared, that if his other objecsi
were surmounted, he would ask no other security thus
oath of allegiance. The cry of security was an old
.; it was made even by Swift, against the admissios
the Presbyterians to civil power; alleging that the,
would be the subversion of the Established Church.'

-The Presbyterians were wisely admitted to a full
participation of he blessings of the Constitution,
and because its firmest supporters. So it would be
with the Catholics, who, in the days of the Ed-
wards, and Richards, and Henrys, denied the tem-
poral, while they admitted the spiritual, supremacy of
Pope. As early as the fifth of Stisabeth, the oath
allegiance was considered sufficient, and the oath of
supremacy (the Ist of the same Queen) dispensed with ;
-4 so down to the 30th Charles 11. The 33d of George

. also held the oath of allegiance to be sufficient for
as parties who were first sworn that they were Roman
Catholics, thereby denying the supremacy. and then took
oath of allegiance. From which it follows, that all
dangers dreaded by his Right Honourable Friend
in existence at the present moment. In the year
;65, on the cession of Quebec to England, the Ca-,
tholic inhabitants were dispensed with taking more
than the oath of supremacy. What was the consequence ?I
that of all the Protestant colonies in America, not one
remained faithful to the Crown, while Catholic Canada
stood faithful, and retrained so to the present boas. The,
Treaty of Limerick secured the privileges of thefts's*,
Catholics, as they existed in the time of Charles IL
that time Catholics sat in Parliansent,lol voting
/*new speaker in the time of James L and the Acts
fsth (the lit did) of Elizabeth, and the 30th Charles
/Loeser were in force in Ireland. The Treaty of Li-
merick was violated, and all the evils of Ireland were
the necessary consequence. But a- spirit was abroad
among the Irish people, which could not be longe►
resisted—a spirit prevalent among all classes, ages,
and saes; not for a fanciful right, but of obtaining,
every fair and manly means, their liberation from
reir present proscribed condition. The Catholic
Clergy very properly assisted their friends at the late
elation ; their interference was neither irreligious
nor immoral, and as a body they were most exem-
plary. The people of Ireland will no longer sub-
mit to be deluded by empty sophistry; they contain
the elements of the strength or the weakness of
the state. and as their indignation at their degraded
condition partook of the ire leonine vincuiene recusatdium
' the Poet, it behove the House to pause ere it turned
own energies against themselves, and converted the
.merit of the State into its poison. To talk of curing
riancipation by converting, was the opinion of a fool
•it was beneath even ridicule; and, anxious as he was
for the diffusion of light and knowledge. he would oh.
lest to them in tato, If made a convert for proselytism.
Ne lorevrarned the House of what the 445. freeholders
Would dot and was laughed at for his pains. He now
forewarned them that rebellion could only be restrained
by the calumniated influence of the Catholic Clergy
over the minds of their flocks ; and that the forty
shilling freeholders would do more, if their rights
awe disregarded by Parliament. They were combus-1
tible. Would the House apply the torch and involve
the empire in ruin? The Protestant feeling was equally
wrong oa the ether side, as the tone of some Hon.lklem-
bort Ott fled, so that something most be done to save

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