Star.
London, England, 1828-02-16 00:00:00

FINANCE COMMITTEE.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that in the first place he
should move, that that part of his Majesty's most gra-
cious Speech which was particularly addressed to that
House, and had reference to the state of the .Penance of
the country, should be read.
The C erk ti en read the following pm of his Ma
jesty's Speech We ate commanded by his Majesty
to recommend to your early attention an inquiry Tito
the sate of the Revenue and Expenditure of the
country. His Majesty is assured th.et it will be satis-
factory to you to learn, that notwithstanding the dimi-
nu ion which has taken place in some branches of the
Res enue, the t cal amount of receipt during the last
yea, has not disappointed the expectations which were
entertained at the commencen.ent of it." -
Mr. Secretary PEEL then reise.l have moved, Str,
that the part of his Majesty's most gracious Speech
which :eters to the state of the income and Expendi-
ture of the Country should be read, not merely in corn-
pliance with a general usaite upon the occasion of simi-
lar motions for a commitei upon the state of out Fr-
nances, but in older that ,I may introduce the proposi-
tion I am about to make under the very highest aus-
pices, and claim for it the sanction and the recommen-
d ition of the fi.st auth:rity in • the land. This propo-
sition, for the appointment of a Committee to inquire
into the state of our Finance,. is .not a Thing by any
means either novel or unusual*, At various preceding
iteriods in the history of this coantry,-ComMittees have
been appointed et the recommendation of the Crown,
not only for the purpose of examining into the amount
of the Income and Expenditure of the Country, but still
more for the purpose of submitting their opinion upon
the possibil ty of establishing a more effectual controul
over that expenditure, and at the same time of making
such reduc ions in our variolks establishments, as may
be found compatible with the situation and necessities
of the country. In the year 1786. some short time
after the conclusion of the American War a Finance
Committee was appointeJ, on the recommendation of,
Mr. Pitt. After the inteival of a-few years, in 1796, a
similar Committee was appointed, over which, l believe,
the present Lord Colchester presided—and -presided,
o ~ with in ability which has conferred on him the
greatest honour; while from the exertions and.-recom•
mendations of that Committee the most essential ad-
vantages had accrued to the Government and the-
Country. Again, in the year 1807, at the tecommen-
dation, I believe, of the present Mat qiiis of Lansdown,
then Lord Henry Petty. a Committee was appointed;
having objects exactly similar to those which preceded
it. And lastly, in the year 1817, a Committee was
moved for by Lord Castl reagh, to make inquiries of
the same description, into the state of our income and
expenditure, although, from a variety of ciscurnstances,
the country did not derive from its recommendations
the advantages which were anticipated. fly an entirely
fortuitous, but somewhat • singular coincidence, the
same period of time, or very nearly the same period,
has elapsed between the appointment of this and of
these three other Committees. In the year 1786, a
Committee was appointed in the first instance. In the
year 1796, exactly ten years afterwards, the second
Committee was appointed. Again, in the year 1817.
or in ten years further,a third Committee was appointed;
and finally, in the year 1828, accidentally, no doubt,,
but yet somewhat singulaily., I now come forward to
propose the re-constitution of a similar Committee,
after the lapse of very little more than a similar pe-
riod. 1 do nor, I beg now to say, propose the ap-
pointment of this Committee horn any of the • various
arrives or objects wltich I have heard during the cssucl
cone rsa ions upon the tut jest in this Hous-, and the
divussions elsewhere much more than insinuated.—'
With respect to the motives and the objects which in-
fluence use on this occasion, I beg most solemnly to
assure the House and the Country. that I donut propose
this Committee in the reluctant fulfilment of any pledge
given by the head of a' former Comment. 1 propose
it from a conviction, which I have for a long time en-
tertained, and which has been.,strengthened and con-
firmed by the inquiries and exisminatipas I have been
compelled to make upon the docutients connected with
thg subject. I propose it, I. say, from a deliberate coo
vlction that the time is now coma when it becomes. an
imperious duty to look fairly and firmly into the whole
'Woof the Financial system of this country. * I -clo.ooe
propose it, as has been insinuated, to Made & *to
.4e-
ceive, either this House or the country; I'do not 140-
pose it for the purpose of procuring b./Commendations
to increase our establishments ; I do not propose it to

2

find an apology for any increase of taxation. I propose
a Committee, because 1 belieee its marnbers will honestly,
and conscientiously execute vie proposes for which it is
appointed, and because I believe that these purposes,,
thus honestly and fairly executed, the Executive. Grea•`'
vernment,and the country at large, must derive the
most important benefits from their labours. It may
be perhaps unnecessary, and it certainly would be
much more agreeable to me, if my labours on this
occasion could be confined to the simple statement
of my views in the appointment of the Committee,:
and to the proposal of the names of those whose
acquirements point them out as fit to be its rnesti-1
bens. I think, however, I may infer from the con-
versations which have taken place here, and from'
what I have accidentally heard elsewhere, a very gene-
, ral expectation has prevailed, that I should preface my
proposal for the appointment of the Committee by
some general reference to the state of the finances, of,
the country. I should be sorry to disappoint the gene.'
ral expectation, but, at the same time, in attempting to
fulfil this part of my task, I trust the House will bear
with my incompetence,_ and extend to me its indulger e.
hope it wi 1 be good enaugh to iecolect, t' at thei
statements I have to make upon this su' ject have n t
been intimately or necessarily-connected s. jib that par-
ticular department of the State over which I have the
honour to preside; arid that, under the very peculiar
circumstances in which I have been lately placed—
called upon so very recently to return to the set vice of
the Crown, I have not had an opportunity to devote
that time and that attention to the details of the ques
tion which it deserves, and which might, perhaps, Wye
in some me Mite compensated for the disahilties and de-
ficiencies, under which I must have always laboured
attempting to enter upon such complicated subjects. I
shall attempt, however, to lay before the House, not
only my view of the present condition of our Finances,,
but also the general outline of the facts connected with
our Income and .Expenditure for some years preceding.
If theme prove to be any met it in the statemera I am thus
abi ut to make, it will be only this: that 1 shall state the
truth fairly and openly, without attempting to con-
ceal or to gloss over any thing which may have c-me
to my knowledge. For if theme is any thing of which,
I am more thoroughly convinced than another, it is'
that nothing can be more absurd or impolitic than any
attempt to mystify or conceal the financial state of
the country—(Hear; hear!) These things are mote
simple than they appear to be upon a superficial view
nf the subject. There is, in fact, not the slightest-dif-
ference between the calculations for med upon many
millions and upon a few pounds, or between the expen-
diture of'a bumble individual and that of a rich and
powerful' country.' • They depend upon the very same
principle, and it might just as well be contended that
the common rules of arithmetic, applied in making
common calculations in our domestic occurrences; do'
not apply to the casting up 'or the subdivision °C
lions, as to suppose that the extended financial system
of a nation must not rest upon the same views and be
governed by the same principles as the income and'
expenditure of a private individual. I shall attempt,
therefore, on this occasion, to consider this most im-
portant question—the present !tate of the Finances of
this country—upon precisely the same principle, and
upon precisely the same views, with which an indivi-
dual might be supposed to enter into an examination
of his own concerns--supposing that any necessity
should arise for his entering upon that consideration.—
I sliall,•as far as I possibly can, divest my statement of
any thing technical, or which might be considered
obscure, so that I may, if possible, render it intelligible
to all who hearnie, even those who • may be thelean
versed in questions of finance. I presume, aerefote,
that if an individual was about to look into the state of
his affairs; the condition of his estate, the amount of his
income, and the extent of his expenditure, and the pros.
pects which the future afforded him, I presuMe, I say,
e would proceed sorriewhat on-these principles.He would
first enter into an examination of the extent of his incum-
brances, and the amount of debts to which he was indis-
putably liable; 2dly, he would ascertain what had been
the amount of his net income for years back; 3dly, he
would inquire what was the prospect of the probable
income he might calculate upon the future; and,
fourthly, he would determine the amount of his future
expenditure. In pursuing that course, therefore, I am
not gr,ing back to the histriry of our finances for a long
series of years. 1 do not by any means profess to enter
into any profound views of the subject. I am merely
going to give the House a plain statement of such facts
as I have been able to collect, and to present a general
view of the present financial condition of the country.
The fint•question, then, which presents itself, accord-'
ing to the • course which I have prescribed to myself,
is this—What is the present amount of those incum-',
brances, tolhe due discharge of sehich we are bound
by every obligation. of: national -honour and national
faith? For, whatever may be the financial condition of
this country, or whatever may he the difficulties in
which we are involved, I believe that there is an uni-
versal feeling, both in this House, and throughout the
country, that the national faith which has been pledged
to the public creditor must be the first object of our
regard, and placed as an item in our financial account
from which we cannot escape—(Hear,.bear). I think
it quite sufficient for my present purpose (although .1
am willing to go farther back if any Gentleman should
desire it); but 1 think it will be sufficient if I examine.
into the greatest amount Of debt at some given periods,
taking the first year of the late. peace as the commence-
ment of these periods. Taking it, thcn,"as the first, and
shewing the utmost extent of our incumbrances at the
end of thewar, I shall take an intermediate period between
that and the present, and then 1 shall state the amount
of our obligations at the present moment. For these
purposes, then, 1 propose to take the years 1815, 1822,
and 1827. The total Unredeemed Debt in 1815, or ra-
ther 1 should say 1816, for it will•be more convenient
and more intelligible to speak in each case, of the year
in which the account was fairly made up. The total
capital, then, of the unredeemed funded debt of this
country, in the-year ending on the sth January, 1816,
WAS 816,910,0001. In 1822 the total amount of the un-
redeemed debt was 796,550,00 W. Last year the amount
or capital of the unredeemed debt was 777,476,0001. I
should observe; that I deem it unnecessary to mention
the hundreds. This last item is strictly, I believe, 9 or
4004 more, but I 'apprehend it is sufficient if I state
it thus- in round- numliers, and indeed 1.--fear that
the debt is altogether so large, that a few hundreds are
but of little consequence in the statement. The next
matter to be considered is, the amount of Charge. The
amount of. Charge for Debt to which the country is
annually liable, includes the amount of interest payable
to the public creditor on account of the funded debt;
and thx.cestof management of the unfunded debt.—
rhis charge amounted—
Inatts ~ • . • . • • .. a'asst7ll,ooo
lu lasi to
la 1847 to 25,500,000
*But this statement alone does not corn •f • • prise a Air view
'of the aggregate -amount of the public debt, and the
charge upon it. In the first place, the annuities p ry able

on the public funds are terminable, in point of fact. het
at so distant a period as scarcely to warrant the intro-
duction of any calculations founded on their expiration.
In the next place a portion of this charge is permeate.
and another temporary only. We are next to cemeider
what has been the total amount of charge occasionedto
the country by reason of the Unredeemed Funded Debt,
at the first period—the year after the peace—the inter
mediate period, lBV2—and in the last year. The anemia
amount of Charge on the Funded Debt and Annuities was
In 1815 • . . . . ‘50.488,080
In 1822 88,9118088
In 1827 • .• . • 518,581,000
I am not yet come, Sir, to speak of the Eschiteruei
Bills or Unfunded Debt; but the statement D have
made will serve to thew that the diminution of the
public expenditure, on account of interest, to which this
country is liable, was last year, as compared with the

le3tio6;oom

year 1815
But as compared with 182 t, only . 21spoo
In order to termriate this virw of the %hulk of thi
incumbrances to which the count, y is linble, on accousi
(if the charge of the unfunded debt. in7luding-Esche:
quer Bills (under various closse,), Public Works, Iris
Treasury, D ficiency, Outstanding, I inas state, that
In 181 S It amounted to . . X 44,544000.
In 1822 to . . . . . 4110:09,0041
In 1827 to . . . . . 34,770,000

The total annual charge, therefore, to- these three yearsw
namely, 1915, 1922, and 1927, as for funded debt, for
annuities, and for unfunded debt, was, for V.e Ora year,

in ISIS 4£33,679,000
111 1822 . • • • • 30,027,000
Iu 18'47 • • • • • '29,251,000 '
(Hear, hear). I am perfectly aware th it all this ts
matter of mere detail, and as such must be very te-
dious, I fear, to some Hon. Gentl. men 3lcnind me; bat. •
on account of the extreme importance of that detail, I
must entreat their most serious attention to it—(Hear.-
hear). The total decrease, then, Sir, of the capital of the
unredeemed funded debt, since the year 1815, has
been 38,83.5,0001. that it- to sty, last yea-r, as coin-
pared with the year 1815. we had appropriated for
the redemption of the funded debt. 58,000.001 t and in
1827 also, the unfunded debt, as compared with ite -
amount in 1815, was decreased by 9,707,0001. so that
the decrease upon the debt, funded and unfunded, was,
in round numbers, 48,608,0001. The total decrease of
ckarge on account of the funded and unfunded debt,
since 1815, appears to have been 4 424 0001. th ft is t•
say, a less amou. t on account of the charge for the
total debt, as compared with its amount in the first year
of peace, 1815, by the considerable sum of 4,000,0001.
It may not be unimportant, in the next place, to state .
vihat proportion of the annual charge on the total
debt of the country is occasioned by annuities. Of hew
`annuities, some, as I have before observed, are terrain.
able. In 1815, the total amount of charge on the debt
was 80,488,0001. of which 1,924,0001.- wee absorbed by
annuities. In 1822. the total charge was 28;590004
of which 1,892,0001. was the am, wit df annuities.—
List year the total charge was 28,381,0001. and the
proportion of annuities (a proportion undoubtedly much
increased) was 2,602,0001. My sole purpose is to give
a full and unreserved statement of the condition of tlie•
finances of the country: I trust, arid I. believe'. there
will be no material error, for my object iito,state 017.
to conceal nothing: This being, then, the state tif our MI.
cumbrances for which we have to provide, let us next look
at what has been our Revenue and our Expenditure for
sometime past. In order to make a correct estirnate for the
future, the best cour-e will be to extei:d the view some.
what beyond the limit of two or three years; and Ipoi.o
pose, therefore, to. bring the period of five yenta witaise-;
the scopeof my observations. I will first proceed•scesl
state whit has been the expenditure of-thetountry Cot
each of the last five Years.. Aqherear, at the ciutsek,,'
I am met by a difficulty as to the meaning of the-word.'
expenditure—a difficulty which, obviously, .ntateekte
solved before we can hope to have a clear under.
standing upon the . subject. I wish it, therefore, so
be understood, that by " expenditure," I mean, !her
national- expences, clear of e.hat is called the "demi
weight"—the naval and military pensions. For -thy
sake of promoting a clear, intelligible, view of !Mg;
complicated question, I discard all consideration lot'
the present of the sums of 4,800,0001. on the one side,
and the 2,800,0004 or whatever the amount is, on the
other. That I may not be charged
.with a -desire to
evade a difficulty, I will afterwards. speak of those
Pensions; but, for the present, I leave them alto-
gether out of my calculation. I have, then, taken
the last five years, and endeavoured to ascertain
what has been the amount of the great branches. of
National Expenditure, viz.—the Interest of the Debt,
the Army, Navy, Ordnance, Civil List Establish-
ments, and 39 on. It will be observed, that in stating the.
expenditure, I am stating it exclusive of the interest of •
the unfunded debt, and exclusive of the advance of five
millions given under the Act of Parliament to the Com-
missioners for the liquidation of the National Debt. The
expenditure, which I now propose to stare to the House,
comprises merely the ordinary expenditure of the country,
the great branches of expense. The total of these branches,
then, exclusive of the Sinking Fund, was ite-
-1323 . . . . . X 47,692,000. •
1824 49,527,000
1825 48,061,000
1826 49,583,000
1827 49,719,000

Suppose, in the next place, that we deduct from the
gross expenditure, the fixed sum for the interest of the
debt, in order to exhibit the expenditure apart from the
fixed incumbrances—l proceed, then, to state the net
expenditure, exclusive of the charge for the Funded and
.Unfunded Debt, -exclusive of the naval and military
pensions, and also for naval and military works—
which latter do not at all belong to the subject. The
sums will then stand thus—

1825 . . . 8,477,000
1824 • • • • • • 20,461,000
1825 20,000,000
1826 21 )500,000
1827 21,52,000
In stating these figures correctly, Sir, I intend to east
no reflection, if any there be, upon any former Govern-
ment. In doing so, I should be reflecting upon myself
as well as upon them. But that is not my purpose. I
am satisfied that the course I am pursuing, is the only
one by, which I can fairly present a full financial view
of my subject; and it is to the accomplishment of that
task my duty upon the present occasion points—(Hear,
hear!) Having thus separated the ingredients of our
expenditure, having shewn it in parts, I will now present
to the House a view of the total expenditure and income
for the entire period of five years. The total income,
including all sources of revenue, and the re-payment of
advances made for -public works, for the five years fast
past, 15•.•

4161,000,000.

Of course, the- House knows the meaning of re-pay-
ments of advances made upon public works in England
and Ireland. Sums were advanced from time to time,
for the in-emotion of works in both countries, security
being taken for the interest and re•payment at mire.
nient periods; and this sum of two hundred and -sixty.
one. millions includes within it such sums as have.. been
`repaid during the five years. I will now, with equal
timesetve, state the amount of the capenditure for the

same
the of
of iike
likowi
and.r3
for pm
total'A

tlvo 11
revers'
debt,
inea—

Noi
one sti
existtt
'total t
164 i,.

Mall.
4113114
Iflt I
.attenti
In4si9
mall/
'five r

Exhib
'wow

The d
foi tba

41illiCes

(coop
ther.
to hal
I WOUI

easily
actual

have,
recjuu

tame
Ilona
etetati
years.
to pro
calm
—Tha
Right
at a a
be pr
MAUI
slater;
purpo
future
to ref;
last is

Thi
Casua
Public
therefg

The

I an
that
.I
preseil
in
tate u
of ttei
lap&
sequel
annex

u
alone
sure c
'Heim
year

Dedi
sum
Esti,
Fine

The
was-
so tb
those

will
not
will

,~

4.
I
t~

•,~
~..

. . -

~~
f.
✓

le,
of
ist

341
ler
ty
en •

same tie. ioJ ; s • 0 at, by deducting the one sum from
the other, we may see what has been the teal surplus
of income over expenditure. I omit in this statement
likewise, as in the statement of the income, the naval
and military pensions, and include all advances made
for public works, and, indeed, every other charge. The
total of our expenditure thus obtained is—

£249.000,000.
Deducting two bundled and forty•nine millions from
two hundred and sixty-one millions, the total surplu.
revenue, applicable to the liquidation of the national
debt, during that period of five years, appears to have
been--

i 12.000,000.
Now, Sir, I will state the income and expenditure,
including the dead weight, as it adds to the Income on
one side, and to the expenditure on the other, under the
existing arrangement, with respect to that item. The
total then, inclusive of every payment fur the last five
yeals, will be—
Income . . . . . £234,149,000
Expenditure . . . . . 243,095,000
Making a total surplus of twenty-one millions in round
numbers, according to this view of the subject. The
next point to which I think it necessary to draw the
attention of the House is the amount paid by the Com-
rnissi9ners of the Sinking Fund, as directed to be an-
nually appropriated by Act of Parliament for the last
five years. The total of these payments is—
L 29,414,000,
Exhibiting an excess over the surplus income, which
amounts, as I have shewn, to 21,054,0001• or —•

ze,360,0n0.
The difference has been made up partly by money raised
for that pnrp.se, and partly by reduction of the ba•
lances in the Exchequer on the last day of one year
-ct•eapated with those balances on the last day of ano.
Iher. Supposing, for instance, the abount of balances
to have been five millions in the year 1823. and the
amount. now to be only two millions, the House will
easily see that a larger sum by three millions thin the
actual surplus of the income over expenditure may
have, during the intervening pet iod, been applied to the
reduction of the debt. I am slot aware, Sir, that 1
have omitted any point necessary to render to the
House a clear, unembarrassed, and perfectly true
account of the Income and Expenditure of the last five
years, and of the incumbrancett for which we have had
to provide. It would be difficult for me to attempt an
estimate of the future probable Revenue of the country.
—That is a task which more properly devolves on my
Right H.sa.friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer),
at a more advanced period of the Session, and it would
be presumption in me to anticipate, with the feeble
means which I have for coming to a judgment, the
statement which we may expect from him. For the
purpose, however, of assisting to a correct vies of our
future prospects in that respect, it may not be amiss
to refer to the 'ordinary expenditure and income of the
last two years. The total ordinary ievenne,
For the Year 1.828, was . . .e 49,635,000
For 1527 • • • • 19,581,000
This is exclusive of Naval and Militasy Pensions,
Casual Revenue, and the Repayment of Advances on
Public Works. The income for the year 1827 b.ing
therefore . . . . X 49,581,000
lizperalizere .. • . . . 49,487.000
Tint .sacs of Imam was 91,000
"the Expenditure for the two years was— •
For tam • • • • 49,513,000
1887 49,487,000

I am aware, Sir, that some expectation is entertained
that
.I shall say something about the Estimates for the
present fejti;, and although they are not all made up
in at.fortstfat to present to the House, I shall not hesi-
tate to give a general, and, I believe, an accurate notion
of *ell imratiat—(Hear,tear, heat ). I protest, however,
againstitteing bound by any inaccuracy that may subs
secluently.appear to attach to this statement.. It is my
anxious-wish to give the House every possible informa•
dem uperflevery branch of the subject, and it is that
alone whfeli induces me to make this premature disdo.
sure of the probable amount-of the Estimates-of the
present -year—.(Cheers). The Estimates for the present
year will; 1 believe, be—
. ...
*, • kor the Any . £6,566,000 •
Aintyllatraordinaries, including under
that head. £450,000 advance for the
present year, and .C. 60,000 of debt • •
...belonshig to the last year . 810,000
' Militia • . • . . 293,000
Commissariat • 379,000
'Navy - . • • . 5,233,000
Ort?ance . . 1,574,000
hliscellanenus . 12040,000
Now, Str, I hope I- shall not be charged with .con-
cealment or intentional mis-statement should any of the
sums tome out different tom what I have now stated.
My. sole object is to assist in devising the best means
for our future guidance. andif, in tl.e execution of that
object, I should commit any immaterial error—l am
sole there will be none material—l hope no one will
attribute to me an intention of misleading the House—
+Hear, bear). The total of these Estimates is—
A 17,577,000.

I .have refereed to the Estimate made by the Finance
Committee of 1817. as adequate for the same services
prospectively, and I find that their Estimate for the
services I have enumerated was -
X11,350P00.

Deducting this sum of 17.i50.0001. from the former
sum of 17.577.0001. there remains as the Excess of the
Estimate for the present Year, over the Estimate of the
Finalise Commitgee of 1817
4127.000. (Cheers).
The total amount isf Estimates voted for the list year
was— £111,745,000,
so that the Estimates for the present year are less than
those for the past year by

41,168,000, (Cbeen.)
The Honk Member for Montrose seems to doubt the
accuracy of my statement. I am. perfectly willing to
be corrected if I am in error, but I make the best calcu-
lation I can for the in!otmation of the House—(Hear
—having no other object than that which is common
betwixt the Hon. Member and , myself, to make a full
and explicit disclosure of the state of our Finances—
(Cheers). I believe it will be found that these Es-
timates are

Less than those of 113115
Than those of 1626
.And than those of 1627

46,140
365,543
1,148,264?

For di* year 1117 . . . 4913,449.

(Great Cheering )
In looking forward to the probable demands that
will be made on this country, I think, Sir, we should
not omit to take into consideration the effect that
will be produced by the termination of the contract
with the Bank of England, with reference to th
naval and military pensions. If it should net be
deemed advisable to renew that contract—if we thought
it be ter to return to the old system and meet the charge
of our pensions—it is clear that the result will be an
addition ,to the present expenditure of the country.—
The contract with the Bank will, 1 believe, expire in
July of the present year. The effect of the termination
of the contract will be a diminution of income avail•
able for the generiil services of the year 1828. as com-
pared with use amount received from the Trustees of
the Bank.

Inc! fur the gen•rel ;ervicts of the yep 1619,
f•••• .}i
•• •
compared w th

1 STY of .
It does not appear to me necessary Curthef trespass
on the patience of the Howe, by presenting them *ith •
Any further details, to enable them to form a just *pi-
nion as to the real state of the country. .It is not my
'otention to enter into any defence of the cootract to
which I have just allude! (it would be quite beside my
purpose to do so), and I have merely introduced it to
assist in forming an hypothesis of our probable future
income. For the same purpose only have I referred to
the estimates. They were prepared by a Government
with which I was not connected, but I have a strong
conviction on my mind that they were prepared with

great care, earnestly and successfully to carry into effect
every possible retsenchment,—(Hear). But on the sub-
ject of these estimates, I will say that I am satisfied
there exists in the New Member* of the present Go-
vernment, as well as in those who belonged to the last
Administration, a sincere desire to see economy.in the
public expenditure carried to, its utmost 1 ngth. And
'if, through the recommendations of the Finance Com-
mittee, it should appear practicable to make some re-
duction in the expenditure of the next halt year, that 1
am confident will be cheerfully effected—(Cheers). With
respect to the Army Estimates,. it has been propose,'
that a further reduction should be made in our
force, To effect this, there are two modes—the one by
disbanding the regiments, and the other by reducing
the number of men. In the former case there would

be a claim on the part of those reduced to pensions
By reducing the number of men merely, no expen-t-
WAS entailed on the country. The 'eduction (If the men

also could be immediately effected, and certainly it our
military force will bear reduction at all, th it is•the way
least open to objection. I have asked my Noble FI iethl
(Earl Dudley) it it be possible to make a greater it duc
Lion than ha, yet been made in that branch of our es-

veoditure which refers to foreign re,idents, esprcially
with reference to the Ministerial and al,o the

EA tblichments of South A mei ica—(Hrar, hear) Tht
k another subject which .4 ill var itatnr.tily come uncle!

:he con.ideration of the Finance Committee—l allude

to the Colonial expenditure—(Hear, hear, hear). Sr,
it is matter of notoriety, th lt the military establishments
of many of our Colonies, particularly those immediately
dependent on the Crown—l do not of course allude to
such as have Legislatures of their own—am• t to .a
considerable annual expenditure. The Revenue which
the Colonies to which I allude yield, is_ very
the total amount of it, I believe, scarcely exceeds oi.e,
million per annum, and it may not appear upon con
sideration to be inconsistent with perfect justice to make
these Colonists so far meet the expenses incurred tot
their internal protection, as to lessen somewhat the bur
dens which they impose on the Mother Country—(Hew.
In treating of these matters I wish. it, Sir, to tse on
detstood, that ,my mind -is not under the guidance t
any peculiar doctrines of political economy. My .Ingle
view is to keep the.expenditure and income of the co in-
try as much as possible • ors a par with each other---
(Heari bear). I wilt trttgin address myself to the imam;
dtate question of 'ttlei,laiiiiMent of the CoaMittee..
I have already been. challenged to give, a definition;ol
the powers. of the Committee.. I shall first make a
single observation respecting its compo,itioti; White
there are so many who deem th..-niselves qualified,
and who are so esteemed by others, selection becomes
a very difficult task. But it must he done, and, in
attempting to execute it to • the best of my ability-, 1
have endeavoured toinchide as large a portion of the
experience of the
,House, and of those Honourable
Members who have particularly devoted their attention
to these subjects, as was consistent .wiih the limited
numbers of the Committee. With respect to 117,
powers of the Committee, am not prepared to (q;what ought to be their enact lingte.• . I think asy.tioati
Hon.• Friend HeskissonYwas -most matet lolly this.
understood, • when be...was: stated to have •deetatesi
that the establishments- of 'the cottntry -*We levels sd
-
Government only was responsible for, and that the Com-
mittee would have-n(144/1K Of -inqUising into them.—
It is impossible for. Any, man of-good sense to think. of
preset 'Ling the real limited such an.ingpiry., Cpn.
the one hand, it is clear that the. Executive.
..(littVwp:.
extent, if it •is 16 be c,,mpetent
.to.the .41ISCharge,ofit,A_
duties, must be accepted as responsiblA4 to-is certain•
extent, for the establishment Of the cyontr
other band, to exclude the Conmittee ..
of those establishments would -be equally, as iskinsid,
as to deny the responsibilly of Gave lonent.. Most
of the circumstances connected with those„eptitilitsjs,-,
menu cannot be excluded frum a body sir' appointed.,
But at the materials it is obvious that Governmott miry
e in possession of many elements mates iai to Aot lot
mation of an accurate judgment, which they cannot,
disclose. Thus, for instance, with iespect..to the near.Y.,
which was last night ,elected to in our 4cussion?,'
which treaty provided for the employment of 4
force, how was it possible ter the Executive,,which
Could only know of the secret ar:ice bppended Jo,!the.
treaty, to impart to the Committee that materi4ele-
ment to its judgment—and how could. such a
.C.pip
mittee have proceed. d to delibiration svithout • tht
knowledge of such a circumstance,..exceping ,con-
ti ience in the Executive? All, that I c.o.s.'''. Sir, is,
that to enable the Committee to take an accurate
and comprehensive view, every possible assistance. will
be given ; I can say no more than this. It was. the
rule on which the Committee' acted. in.,1.§17, aistl• no
other rule can be acted on now. There is .one point,
Sir, to which, before I conclude,,! am . anxious. toad-
dress myself, and upon whist have Always het a veer
strong feeling; I had thought, indeed. of .totroducing
words into my motion expressive of that feeling.. Sit,,
I refer to the advanoge and necessity of a simplification.
of the public accounts—(Cheering) I have n • doubt
that, without any express worth, the Committee will
feel themselves warranted in taking that 'mecums;
subject into their serious consideration. Ni) man is
more desirous than l am to see the public accounts pie
seated in the simplest possible for m (gem, heat). And.
I can only say, that it the Commute.: should be able to
recommend any plan for the attainment this obj et,
they will secure for the counts y a great puhiic adva •
cage. I see po reason, Sir, why we should not follow
the example set us in this respect by .Ind the
United States of America--(Hear, heal). lam qui.e
certain that we shall du well to profit by such an ts-
ample, and I can see no one single disadvantage attend
ing it—(Cheers). I thank the House for the indulgence
which has been extended to me in the statement of oe
tails which it would have been difficult to have relieve
from the dryness which notoriously attaches to soil
subjects. 1 trust I have said enough to she* to w at
spirit this Committee has been proposed, and to convince
the House that it proceeds, on the part of his Majesty's
Government from a sincere desire to meet Linty • irtl
fully Parliament and the Country, upon a subject of
such vital imFortance. I know that, horn a pet son in
my situation, professions of economy are suspected a•
things of course, and as intended to att)teatt. But
.tate earnestly and confidently to the House, that.theie
.s, oa the part of the present AJII/1111.1fAtitil, in taking

the affairs of this conntrl4nJet its t uidAnce. a 're-
Wilute tleterinination ti effect 'all.p,oktoole
siteitsTsirdapeTh"Mit"-ea-lentieti). Xii'l I on. Gentleman
ecoomy in
.the other night declared opinion, that, %%hat-
e. ver the stispositinn of eftatiest, that was still over-
ruled by' an eternal
frov
influence, which rendered it
imperative to maintain large establishments to satiate
that hifislenee.• 'To this,. Sir, speaking from experience
in the busineis of Gevermnent, give an unqualified
denial. I shall not now go back to the increase which
may haire taken place in the different Departments from
a particular period, upon which I have addressed myself
to the House, but must say, that I cannot agree with
the Hon. Member in the causes to which he refers this
increase. I believe that the increase of which he com-

plains has been partly, and indeed principally, owing
to the views entertained by each particular Depart•
ment with respect to its own service, without, per.
haps, paying very particular regard to the getwial
expenses of all ;. and, at any rate, I entirely differ
from the Hon. Gentleman, because I am convinced that
the expenses thus incurred, ha►e been entered into from
the laudable view of each head of a 11.-partment wishing
to have the establishment under his conto.ul in the best

possible state, and, most certainly, from other and better
motives than those a,signed by the Hon. Gentleman—
(Hear.) In saying this, I speak from experience, as in the
Department which I have had under my own co.:mon'', I
must conlets I always entertained a wish to have all th,

estabiishrnents connected with it in the best possible state,
without considei mg what the effect might be upon
the general establishments :he countr?. What I now
wish: that there should be nne general and effe.:
,uartootrool over *ll the establishments of the coon-

'ry ; and I believe that the Noole Individual at piesen,
it the head of the highest department in the Cnoti-
Cry, has boil the disposition end the power t 3 exer.
co,e a -greater and wore efficient controul over all the
subordinate establishments, than any-other person in
he country—(Hear, hear). I wish to avoid intro

,luting anything like a• political and party feeling
.inu the consideration of a matter of this import.
.ince. I only .n►entton the name of that Noble Person
upon this c cca-ion, because I con.idea him more ca
~able than any other individual of .efficiently executing
that necessarycontroul so indispensable to the well-being
of the country. I say this, because in the various civil
offices he has filled, there can be no one who has not
seen,. both in the Ordnance and other departments

heretofore- under. his direction, The most anxious desire
on his part to intioduce.exerytetre.nchment.and every
degree of. econlmy compatible.with the interests of the
c. unity. lam sure that that Noble Individual see. no
LaUbe to despond,althongh he has the desire to look taitly
into the financial state of the countryond has thewarmest
awls)" Ong ornery possible. reduction should ,he made.
know that: these are his wishes,, but only under the strict
antikimperntive.oblisation of maintaining to the letter,
asap its utmost point, the national faith with the pub.,,
tic creditor, which he it lolly assured means ere to be,
Anund for in, the resources of the country, and upon
nch.aecount he feels that, these is not .the slightest
came for the least dmpondency-7.(dear, hear, hear)—
And I.siry this because 'believe so too, and ,am so far
trota believing Otheriviscs Outs on the coutrary,i come
s
tinware! to make this unreserved declaration of. the
tact, without any apprehension of the.possibilitgef cpn:
,tradiction. 1 believe if it were necessary at this moment
to appeal to the resources, and rause the dormaot ener•
ees tit the country, in that .way in which they can
always be revised, either to vindicke the national ho-
nour dr so maintain her essential interests,, that there
neve. was a time when she could pat forth' mightier
exertions. founded on the unimpaired resouriet-of her
financial interests, and the matchless energy. forwhith.
`these -countries have ever been distinguished. 'awl
beg to *Love—
:" That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the
state of the Income and Expendittire of the United Kingdom, uric
tolooositivr awl report what further regulations and checks should,
is their osbriau, be. adopted for establishing an effectual controul
tWel:-Plf die thirties fficutA, r and over the• receipt, custody, and
agplicutiocilat the public money t• and also to consider what further.
Weans ean.bepiken to reduce any part of the public expenditure
withoiitllettiiiment'to the public service." •
The motion having been put from the Chair,
Mrs- HUME *Ai, that hiS reason for rising•was to
,sewgost whethec-ono Committee could effect the object
of his Majesty's 4 estage..and -to ascertain whether it
.4sif intended that the Committee should have power
•to btqUire into the state of the 'Civil List, the CrOwn
Lands,:ind' vat thus Other • ilepartinents. He' believed'
that the words of the prevent motion were 'the same as-
rtif*e., of the motion for •uppointing the-Committee of
1817, as well gxotherpreceding.pwrilttges; •He also
-saw that 'each of the Comtpittres that formerly sat
(wore* which made ten or .fourteen Reports)- had not
been ronfi..ed.to a few nionthsi.but • took, several. /ears
to do so. He, then efore„.subrnitted- what good could
:emit horn that now. proposed? Vite.filenourable Gen-
tl,man here referred to the Siuking Fund, and asked,
hit.% that and other:departments could be inquired into
or how effectual means could be -taken* for redhcing,
establishments, without adequate time,.being given?
.He had considered the inquil ies eateled into.ht
her of-Committees, as well as of the • Commission sp.
pointed inqeire into the Revenue, •and was cet4iin.,
'Oat n,thing in the way now proposed could be chine
-in less thin two or three years, during which time the
debt-mustinerease by continoing.iur expenditure. .He
:theretose suggested, whether it would not be. better to
stave ten or eleven Commit ees.—(Lauptei.)—He was
siviale it waie gore! thing to propose a mode which
Would 'impose so natal duty on the House, where there,
were many so little disposed tto Jabour ; but if it *ere
ifte iitention of the House, according to the• desire ex-
prksed in his M ,jesty's Message, to examine into evely
depirtment, it would be impossible that '2O or $0 men,
hoaeser industrious or intelligent,' could go through
more than one or two of the aumbets which would come
under their inspection. He would ask this question of
any inie who had looked to the Reports of the Finance
Committees. and, of the C..inniissioners appc6nted by
.Act of P lle particularlY referred to that in
the Excise and Customs, and to what was coatm..nly
called Sir Charles: Long's Committee, which took full
five yea, s to examine into these branches alone. Besides
these, there were the Crown L cards and Colonies, and
I it any one would examine how little had been done in a
number of years onthe (turner subject, hoar, could it be
,elvected that the present Committee should. not only
suggest means to improve the finances of the 'counts y,
hut al,o to lessen its expenditure? His opinion teas,
that (he inquiry should be divided among so irtany sub-'
jects as could go into all the divisions of the fistanciA.
which should sit from day to day, and that the'Chaii-
in, n of these ihould form another.Commikee, which
,hinid present a general Report on all tbese,subjectc
'shat would enable the House, before Its separation, 6.
,t.,ve a full view of all the establishtlienti-ollhe-conn7
which civil" a. 4 'any otltft way- come bepire.
,tre•ig. Hr ' aired
.itith thee, &sic on At
ittoOtir, there must emu, uteri sy.,k9',had.ez•-
,4 mined: jse eubjeer,that each ui these Coarasitte es-would
be fully employed fur elelflen• or' tfittehie nitmths..
girder' to be effectual, they should not consist of more

. •
than wen MemWs, as it was always fonnd t? at hu.i.
ne s was much better attended to by a srnall- nuintwr , 4i
when there were many indivi 'uals engaged ;n it; their
labours lay a dead Init.' on the table. The Hon. Nlern..r
then alluded to the Right Hon. &ovary's statement
wish rebpect to the am nint of funded and unfunded

debt, and to the reductions which he stated to have
taken place, but which he (Mr. Hume) would at another
time show to be an egregious mistake. He thenprocee Jed
to say, that the Bight Honourable Secretary had
adopted the sentiments of Lord Castlereagh. who, wheat
proo ing the Committee of 1817, said, that the House
and the country would be insecure, wece they to suffer
their expenditure to go beyo.cd their income, and that
t was a duty incumbent on the country to prepare for
war by retrenchment during the time of peace. He said
that one Committee would have enough to do to attend
to the Customs and Eicise; with the duties and changes
which they might find
.it tight to make; that would
employ them Cully for three or four trinnths. Another
should be appointed f r Stamps, Taxes, and Hackney
Coaches—(Loud 'slighter). It was evident that. Mem-
bers were nut aware that under that head eve, al other
items were included, and an expense of boot 10.0001.
to 1500(1. a year was incurred. which itn.gbt .be
avcd by transferring them to one Board tor Scamps and
Taxes. He had no doubt such a Board would tend
very much to a large reduction ter the coil mum of the
Revenue. Anoth. r Committee should be risirointrd to*
regulate the management of the 11,,5t Office of ihel

. _
hree kingdoms, because he w.is sure, that although the
Secretary devoted bis 013111“1.1 ..tte-wion to the subject, if
Aas impssible for any one m tsach•quately to manage
the thrte establi-hments. The next, and one of the
most important Committees he would propose was one
to inquire into the management and receipt of the land
revenue, an account of which immense sums had .been

lent, and yet never, since 1777, when them had been a
promise of an immense revenue prom it, bad there been •

any.return, except some useless buildings and erections. ••
The next thing be proposed was a separate Committee, •
to inquire hOw the public accounts were made out
in the Exchequers of England, Scotland, and Irelane.'
It would scarcely be believed, that in 1828, we yer-e;
vered in ke ping the accounts like- the savages of she •
Sandwich I,lanus—(Laughter, and cries of hear, hear.)
Every one remembered, that tie only way It.hirison
Crusoe bad of keeping the tally of the days he spent
on h s island, was by cutting notches in a piece of •wo id.
Would it then ,be believed, that .when gooney-is. paid.
into the Exchequer, the account 44611 kept on a little ..
bi of stick, where one notch marked 1,0001. another
2,0001. and so on, in the same ridiculous and extraor.
dinar; way. It should also be known, that the receipt
of all the money paid into the Exchequer was entered
in Latin. If an account was given in English, say
of 5,1201. it was immediately translated into hat barous •
:Latin,' and proper notches cur .in the tally.. -That was
not the only inconiehience that Arose. from the double
form of keeping the accounts lirthe_EichequeT and the
Treasury, therefore it..would be. tl4 sseateat benefit to
get rid of either. :The .Hon.. Gentleman then steststd•
the House to look:to: America and:Fkance,..which Issue, •••
country was A pattern for the keeping of accpuetaark-ic
had otten.spoken to the late Chancellor of the Esejoiar -
Apter, who promised something should be dones.itisaiespi :
plify the accounts, but nothing had Areen
most important Committee would he, ;Inetto incluiraiinto.4!
the Revenue and Expenditute of all trolvoiea larat.bastios.4
Legislative Assemblies; also to i!li4Prc 'joie vttoo
penses of all out Colonial Esiabii,hments.. Amittsert•Sot,
lect Committee he should.plopos*i..inqui: indutstibeer'
management-of the Civil 141491katag41,4,,0ct oortiimeadp•-.-.
Ire! an J; as also into 411,Pen ons,.§nlara es, n :al apati, 41:1
asf State; as also into. the expepserk.of palaceajsadkisarkai y.•
—(Hear, and a laugl4-Co,tiLts.of:Atsticii, theArtietoso4:::
other charges on the Consolidated,Funi.- cookrat,e
accounts, the expense of these am0unied..t0..24911.1)001.-:
and the branches of it were, G.llastiou!,o.,titairyi tesoreic,
were not a separate Cominittee,jc:.cuuld, 'Lever Itrins:t
.quired into. A CoMmiuee should .also
.he appcioted,
tor the ATmy and Ordnance, both Est home and.alien,siti •
and archer for the Navy, including dock..yards,imetioesi::.:
&c. wbich.would. give. fulkthree ruputhe.emple, ment.•:,
• Anotheneonsasittee he would al4o.suggeat.-40ioquit
into tlie-miscellatifoue expenditure, lar Perk anuatente&to,.!:
from 2,000,0004 to 3;000,0001. each year, Thcamouw;
of.the last year was 3,000,0004 and it was never lessxhio
2,000,0001. He thought, that these cisil contingenifiest
such as the Treasury, Downing-street,. tise.,Roarat,(ol.
Works, Law Charges, Secret Service, Irish: Charities,
itc. should be examined into, and there was no doubt
that 5,0001. or 6,0001. per annum,could. be saved,..-• lie..
would also suggest a separate Committee lor:';this .
portant.subject, in order io remove all doubt as to the•:-
Xmount of our debt. He should propos? that it ehould•;
examine the state of our public debt, funded .and
funded, military and n.tval pensipns, Exchequer bills,
&c. He thought the
+South SeA:COuspany should .he
abolished, which was onl7 kept up to pay aleiN..huni(
dred,thousand•posinds dividend,aicl nriely„.tended to .
ptodace different. heads in tbe.public amount. Three •
months bard librinr of thisCommitteeNoutd oilygke •
AIM a slight iusigtit into the aubjeCt.. , -I.e,satoeluded:.
. •
by requesting the consislerauop of ttte Hew. the •
superiorfprospects. DE. effsiienCy..iat Comintimees„,fp!pri.:
upon the plan he. suggested, 41144,Ufge51,010 necessity: of
begioning.with retrenclimeut.in. ihe S ivil Liu,
whiCh.all esirectaiion.trt improvement w..uht be Tai#,
The CHANCELLQR of the E4t.llEGlU4Rsoaiii,..
that he.tby no means cuncusiei with the Hon. Membet„.
f ATlOnitscrae in thinking, that eleven or tweiye,Cuota.
.ittees string simiiitanemiily,• and so as totally:4e,,
engem the time of the Members, could be productiaer
of the brineficaal effects which he anticipated, or at a 3,•
calculated to secure the benefits which be foretold,
but he would absiatn from offjring any observations .
10 the Housi, in support of his view 6f this subject,
until a motion in a substantive form should Come ire.
foie them. its to the other points adverted to by the
Hon. Uent..opposite, he conceived they would be•fitterT
subjskis fotikscussion when they ink in-the CoMMitfee.-
If then it eras deemed expedient to re-model any of the
departments bathed* left ts the discretion of the Ad-
rnuistrition, he saw no objection; to entertaining 'the'
question .ot 'alterations in any of them. In discussing
tbsips in the Committee, they would have this adva t-
ta would there possess a knowledge of the
esthactual
„stiatat
*Of
la things. Woe Honourable- Gentleman had
llis some ridicule upon a
.practice no longer
•iae7isli te:crsiT e—
that of imeritimg.upon a. stick teccipts at.
the -I,,,ichequer.. It Uras,,one. which,, some fano ago,
hat Ikea ibolished. by4,ct *of rissliasionitc and cou44_
Dori be" ie&arded, ef a piece of antlirg,no fonger,exr,.
sant. Further, lie coirld'assure the, :lionpiira,ble -Mee •
bee, that if,.rafter due delibetatiOn Ole oßsigokslee•-it
;should appear fince4ll.- of the pliblfe*xlisndk
tore, inch its*theColorlii for exiutple, e4Kgr from 04 •
extent and compiexiej
cause, amended a raillkertliiitite invesijritresi- Rum the
'Others, these would be .no.otitoiliohlirged'hgaltist the
dommittiers deligiting;iti-poWers to. some pogi 'n of
-their own 'Wily; with a View to the closest inquisi which
any Hon. Gentleman could wish for. This, he coma:Wit/4'
was the best pledge he could give of the spirit and*