Star.
London, England, 1826-12-06 00:00:00

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earnestly hoped the Committee would commence its la-
bours without delay ; for the House could not but be
aware that, after the manner in which these charges had
been brought forward against him, by the llonourable
Al er man, his feelings must be in a very harassed state,
as king as the inquiry should be suspended. He was
therefore in ist anxious, that when appointed, the Com-
mittee should immediately proceed to business ; and that
the Holm would not allow the investigation to stand
over till after the holidays. The Honourable Alder-
ran had made him the particular object of personal at-
tack. as if he had been the grand encourager of Joint
.Stock Companies. That was not the case. He certainly
had been no encourager of improper Joint Stock Corn-
panics. He had been engaged in the direction of two or
three liint Stock Companies—all of them of unexcep-
eieeable character, and most useful to the Public, except
this miserable Arigna Company ; and whatever impro-
prieties might have taken place in the management of
'the affairs of that Company, he had had no share in any
of these improprieties. He had been already on his trial
respecting the transactions which had taken place in the
management of that Company, and before as competent
-a Tribunal as any that could be appointed by that House.
He had been tried by eminent merchants of London—
men particularly conversant with affairs of this nature,
and with general business, and by them he had been en-
tirely acquitted of any participation in those transacti-
sms which had been considered as deserving of censure.
At a meeting of Gentlemen of this description, a Reso-
lution had been proposed, and unanimously passed,
stating, that he had not been at all implicated in the
frauds which had been understood to have taken place
(Hear). He was so far from deprecating inquiry, that
he mist anxiously solicited it (Hear). He begged leave
to call the attention of the House to what had passed at
the Committees and Meetings, where this Arigna busi-
ness was brought under investigation. In July, 1825, a
Committee had been appointed to inquire into the mat-
ter, and of this he was first informed by the Sllicitor
of the Company; and afterwards a General Meeting
was held, to which the Committee had reported that
nothing had appeared in the course of the investigation
to implicate him or Mr. Bent. Shortly after a publica-
tion appeared in the Times newspaper, which seemed
to reflect on his character as connected with these trans-
actions ; and upon this the Solicitor has expressed to
him his regret that any blame should have thus been im-
puted to him, and sent a letter to the Editor of the
Times, stating that he (Mr. Brogden) had not been at
all implicated in the fraud in question. The Times had
published the letter, but remarked at the same time,
that the Solicitors of these Companies would naturally
put the best face possible upon the transactions of the
Managers. After this mode of treating the matter by
the Times, he had determined that no rejoinder from
him should appear in that paper. The matter did not
end there ; for the Committee which he mentioned
above, moved by the injustice done to him in the
Thies, had met, and sent him a letter expressing
their regret at the publication in the Times, and
giving it distinctly as their unanimous conviction
that neither he (Mr. Brogden) nor Mr. Bent had
any knowledge whatever of the misapplication of
15,000/. of the funds of the Company, when they re-
ceived the 10001. each. The Committee afterwards
agreed upon a resolution to be reported to a General
Meeting, and in that resolution the Committee express-
ed their unanimous opinion, that when Messrs. Brogden
and Bent had accepted the 10001. each, they thought
that the money had arisen from the sale of shares, and
were utterly and entirely ignorant at the time that the
money had been withdrawn from the funds of the Com-
pany ; and that when informed of the fact, they had
done every thing in their power to promote a prompt
and rigid inquiry into the transaction. This report was
laid before a General Meeting, and was unanimously
confirmed. At a subsequent General Meeting, held for
the purpose of considering the propriety of excluding
those who had really been concerned in the fraud, a
resolution, acquitting him of all participation in it,
was carried by 202 shareholders out of 216, the num-
ber of which the Meeting consisted. In short, at four
General Meetings, his conduct throughout bad been
fully approved—(Hear). He had only to express his
earnest wish that Gentlemen would not suffer their
minds to be biassed by the general prejudice which then
prevailed against Joint Stock Companies. Joint Stock
Companies were not necessarily bad; for many great
and useful purposes they were absolutely necessary.—
The Hon. Alderman had spoken of the mania of Joint
Stock Companies. He (Mr. Brogden) had a predilec-
tion for that mania j for he belonged to one which had
been eminently successful, and most advantageous to
the public. He had, no doubt, a share in the direction
of some others ; but be they what they might, he had
always acted with perfect integrity—(Hear, hear).—
At.er the Amendment, moved by the Right Honour-
able the Secretary of State, he did not think him-
self called upon to enter upon the general nature
and hist,ny of these Joint Stock Companies. The
Mining Companies had been particularly alluded to.
But surely Mining speculations were not necessarily
bad. Many of them were most valuable, and most
useful to the public. Even the South American Mining
Ass-ciations had done good; as, by the employment of
British capital and industry in the working of the
Mines of those recently emancipated States, the con-
nexion between them and this country was drawn
closer, and great advantages procured for oar com-
merce. He concluded by stating again, that he most sincerely
rejoiced at the prospect of the appointment of the Committee, and
the Lull investigation of those matters in which he was accused of
baying been implicated; and he repeated his wish, that it would
meet as early as possible, and proceed with the inquiry immediately.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN disowned any sweep-
ing censures on Joint Stock Companies. In what he had
said he had excepted all those which, though of great
and unquestionable usefulness, were naturally of too
great a magnitude to fall within the compass of indivi-
dual capital.

Mr. FERGUSSON was fur going into other cases
which had been stated by the Hon. Alderman, and could
met agree that this was worse and more iniquitous than
some others of them. He was quite sure, as the case
stood, that the character and honour of the House were
so far implicated by the charges made, in those trans-
actions, is to render justification necessary. He hoped
that the Hon. Alderman would diligently employ the
recess in making vod the particulais of other cases—
for that was the way, and the only way to do justice
effectually, and he for one would give his cordial assist-
ance to celitig fur a thorough tuvestigation. It had
certainly become necessary to let in light upon these
transactions, whosoever might chance to be affected by
it, be they Members of that House, or be they not Mem-
bers; or if they should be friends of those who engaged
the investigation, they ought still not to be screened,
for the Members of that Huse ought to be the last per-

eons in the country who could be found capable of using'
their power and influence to screen delinquents. (Cheers.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, that the House and the
country, and also the Hon, Gentleman (Mr. Brogden)
ought to feel greatly obliged to the Hon. Alderman,
and to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,' and to
Ministers generally, for the manner in which he had
treated this question. In rine point he could not concur
with them. Having that early foresight which their
official communications must give them, having that
ready mode of appreciating the public danger which
their official industry must give them, they should have
been louder and more direct in warning the country of
the perils of the bubble schemes, and of the disgrace
which must fall on public men, and among them, oa
the Members of that House who should be found im-
plicated in them. Then the House would have to thank
them for more than the exercise of that candour, pro-
priety, and justice which they had shewn in their present
conduct. He was confident that some legislative en.
actment was necessary to prevent the recurrence of
.
Isrmilar frauds, and that without it, the country could
never be persuaded that the House bad done its
duty. In 1825, he had himself predicted the ruinous
consequences of the schemes, and the gross impro-
priety of Members of Parliament suffering themselves
to be drawn into transactions so disgraceful in their
nature. He recollected with pain, Members coming
down night after night with trumpery letters, and
reading them to the House, from which it would have
appeared, that in South America gold and silver were
so abundant, so much used in such a variety of ways,
that every implement of domestic use was made of it,
and that people had little else to do but freight out
coals, and ship home an equal weight of silver spoons.
Nothing had been more fallacious than those Mining
Schemes. In all particulars the parties had been de-
ceived and disappointed, and they longed now for a final
dissolution of the partnerships. He thought that the Hon. Gent.
who spoke last was right in calling on the House for other inquiries.
'There was no just reason fur naming Mr. Brogden, and not naming
others. He repeated his thanks to the Hon. Alderman, and also to
the Right Hon. Gent. although in the latter case he was aware of
the little value of the gift, for their conduct on this occasion.
Mr. ATTWOOD argued with considerable warmth
against the imputations which had been indiscriminately
thrown on the system of Joint Stock Companies—a
system which he said had the approval of Mr. Huskissun
in 1818. It was curious enough that Sir A. Grant,
their present Chairman of Committees, had been at the
head of a Joint Stock Company—(A laugh). There
was nothing derogatory to the character of Members of
that House in their being the holders of Shares in
a public concern, in which the Worthy Alderman
might be assured there was as indisputable a pro
perty as a purchaser could have in a shawl—(A laugh).
The country was covered with the works of these Join Stuck
Companies, which in fact did honour to the nation. The ¶orthy
Alderman stated that in 1824 several persons with fraudulent and
sinister views had applied to him to become concerned Ili Joint

Stock Speculations. Why men of such character should have ap-
plied to the Worthy Alderman he could not tell ; but he could take
upon him to say that they had never applied on that subject to him-
self—(Much laughter).—Here the Hon. Geistlemon entered into a
minute detail of the various important works which had been
achieved by several Joint Stock Associations.
Sir A. GRANT said, that as he had been alluded to
by the Hon. Member who had just sat down, he felt
called upon to reply to that part of his address which
applied to him. But for the distinction introduced by
the amendment in the terms of the motion, he would
not feel himself at liberty to adopt this course. As mat-
ters stood, he thought he might ask the Hon. Member
whether the point of his allusion made a part of the
question before the House? It was true, he was a Di-
rector of a certain Company, which lasted for a few
weeks, but of the existence of which he should imagine
that no individual in the House had been aware; nor
did he suppose that any one, except those who were in
the same situation would know anything about it. In
the Spring of 1825, it was proposed to him to become a
Director m a Company from which considerable ad-
vantages were anticipated. It would be in the recollec-
tion of the House, that in 1824 their Majesties of the
Sandwich Islands visited this country—..(A lough). Royal
visits were matters not to be forgotten—(4 laugh).—
The melancholy fate of those illustrious persons or per-
sonages would also be remembered. An individual named
Reeve, a Frenchman, who attended them, professed to
be entrusted by them with powers to grant exclusive
privileges for the purpose of extending the trade of
their islands. He seemed anxious to dispose of those
privileges by means of Joint Stock Companies. In the
formation of a Company for this object, he (Sir A. G.)
acquiesced. From 20,0001. to 25,0001. was received,
and the trade of the Company was principally to consist
in sandals ; but it was shortly after discovered that the
Frenchman was not really entrusted with the powers to
which he pretended, and the Company was accordingly
dissolved. It must be unnecessary for him to enter into
a description of the different arrangements essential to
the regular formation of A Company, or of the para.
phern ilia which was required by the one to which he
particularly alluded. The Company, however, had been
in existence but a few weeks when it became evident to
the Directors that there was little or no chance of its suc-
ceeding. They then met together to take the subject into
consideration, and argued thus: They, the Directors, by
giving countenance to and lauding the speculation, had
induced a portion of the public to come forward and to
take shares; and that therefore they were in duty bound,
as they had discovered that they had acted from falla-
cious expectations, to take the onus upon themselves,
and net to cast it upon those who had embarked in the
speculation on the authority of the Directors—(Hear,
hear, hear). And that course was strictly followed.—
The Company was dissolved, the deposits which had
been made ss ere returned, and the loss which had been
sustained was borne, not by the shareholders in general,
but by the Directors themselves—(Loud cheers). He
did not wish this statement to be received merely on his
own authority ; there were many Hon. Gentlemen pre-
sent who could give the best testimony to its truth
(Hear, hear). it was with great pain that he had in-
truded upon the attention of the House, even for a mo-
ment, on matters relating at all particularly to himself;
but, after the very pointed allusions, and uncourteous remarks
which had fallen from an Hon. Member, he felt himself bound to
vindicate his own conduct by a simple recital of facts—(Hear).
Mr. ATT WOOD explained—He bore his most willing testimony
to the harmless and innocent character of the Company projected
by the Hon. Member—( A laugh).
Mr. JOHN SMITH acknowledged that he was con-
nected with Fite Insurance Companies, but had no con-
nection, of which he would be asha ned, with any of
the Companies that atone during the mania for Joint
Stock Associations. He w (mid allow that some Mi-
ning Companies had been lorti.ed on 141. e principles—
he himself was connected with one whose affairs he
should be glad to see pubiicly investigated. Of this
be would state one fact, that though the shares rose to
premiums iinm:diately alter they came out, the Direc-
tors did not sell any ut their shares ; he himself had not

sold one of his shares up to that moment—(Hear„
hear). And so far frdm inducing others to join it,
he had in fact warned some against such a step,
stating, as a reason, that the project was merely ex-
perimental, and liable to failure. He was sure some
of those Joint Stock Companies would ultimately
be found to serve the best interests of the country.
He was interested in another Company, into which he
had been led by motives far different from a desire of
gain—one which enjoyed the patronage of Government
—he meant the Australian Company. (Hear.) Though
some Companies had been founded on false principles,
or with fraudulent purposes, yet that would not justify
the Hon. Alderman's imputation of fraudulent conduct
against the many Members of the House who were con-
cerned in Joint Stock Companies.—(Hear). As to the
Equitable Loan Company, of which he was Vice Pre-
sident, he was convinced, that, if established, it would
bring benefit to the poor. Such an institution in Paris,
Mont de Piete, had been found to give to the poor much
relief, and to do much good—particularly as the laws
relative to pawnbrokers were in a very defective state,
and required considerable alteration. After the lan-
guage used by the Hon. Alderman with respect to that Company,
he considered himself bound to follow it up—to drive the nail to the
head. As to the origin of those Companies, It could not be denied
that they were created by the surplus capital—but they had pro-
duced many beneficial institutions. As far as he (Mr. S.) was con-
cerned in them, he did not dread inquiry; and be was sure that
many of the charges against the Equitable Loan Bill world be
found full of exaggeration.

Mr. HUSKISSON.—As I am sure that the worthy
Alderman's representations relative to myself must have
arisen from his having been misinformed on the facts,
I have only to declare that I have had no connection,
direct or indirect, with the Joint Stock Companies of
1824., 1825, 1826—( Cheers). I must, however, admit
that I hold shares in a Fire Insurance Company, but
those shares I have held for the last twenty years, and
am not ashamed thus freely to acknowledge it—(Cheers).
There are other Companies also in which I hold shares,
two small Canal Companies (a laugh), but from which
I derive no benefit now, and in which I was induced to
join through motives of connexion and local interest. As
to my conduct in the affair of the Company for Pro-
moting the Growth of Silk, the facts were these: When
the projectors of it came to us to the Board of Trade,
and sought our assistance in establishing the Com-
pany, I stated that I was desirous of seeing the
experiment fairly tried that under other circum-
stances I should be glad to possess a pecuniary in-
terest in it, but that the situation which I held in
the Board of Trade utterly prevented any connex-
ion on my part with any association of the kind.
The Company afterwards labouring under a miscon-
ception, applied to me to know what number of shares
I would take ? and I again said, that they had miscon-
ceived what I had said, and that all my desire was to
give to the Company such a degree of countenance, as
would have the effect of encouraging them fairly to
make the experiment; and I can assure the House, that
what was done on my part, was done with the full and
perfect confidence, that the establishment of this Com-
pany would be the means of affording employment to
a considerable portion of the population of Ireland—
( Hear). I defy the Worthy Alderman, or any other
Hon. Member, to mention one Company, of any kind
or description in which I had directly or indirectly
any concern—(Cheers). Having stated so much, I
cannot sit down without expressing the great satis-
faction I fed at the able vindication of Joint Stock
Companies generally, by the Hon. Member for Midhurst.
The long experience and considerable mercantile infor-
mation of that Hon. Member enabled him to appreciate
the great benefits derived by the country from the forma-
tion of Joint Stock Companies. I think it desirable'
that it should not go forth to the country that this
House approved of the unmeasured condemnation cast
by the Worthy Alderman upon Joint Stock Com-
panies of every description. If there was one cir-
cumstance in the history of this country to which
more than another must be attributed the great ad-
vantages, derived by commerce in this country, whe-
ther from canals, harbours, or bridges, all of which
have contributed, in no inconsiderable degree, to ad-
vance the general wealth of this country, it is to the
existence of Joint Stock Companies. The great differ-
ence between the manner in which those public works,
so beneficial to the country, were carried on in this
compared with other countries, consists in this, that in
this country those public works are carried on under
the direction of men who have a deep interest in the
success of the undertaking, whilst in other countries
those public works were left to the care of the Govern-
ment, to be carried on by the Government, and the ex-
penses defrayed out of the public revenues. The conse-
quence of this latter mode of conducting public works
generally is, that they are carried on under the direction
of persons who have not a deep interest in their suc-
cess
; and in many instances those works, which, if
completed, must tend to the benefit of the public gene-
rally, are left unfinished. If we look at the great works
throughout the country, is will be found that they were,
originally, very disadvantageous to the projectors, al-
though very beneficial to the public. My Hon. Friend
(Mr. Attwood) has mentioned the New River Company.
What greater benefit could a large town enjoy, than that
afforded by this Company ? What greater advantage
can a large town possess, than an ample supply of good
water? That work was undertaken by individuals, and
carried on originally, at a great loss to them, but with
benefit to the public. I am ready to admit, that ulti-
mately the work was productive of benefit to those
who succeeded the original Shareholders. They were
amply remunerated, but the public, who originally
were benefitted, were also ultimately benefitted.—
The same may be said of bridges—the same may be
said of other gt eat works, which distinguish this ctuntry,
from other countries, which have advanced the com-
merce, and increased the general wealth of the
country. All those works were undertaken by Joint
Stock Companies, and successfully managed, not
always, I am ready to admit, for the benefit of the
parties who had engaged in them, but always carried on
for the public benefit. A greater illusion cannot exist
in the country, than an attempt to cry down Joint Stock
Companies of every description as positive and public
evils—(Hear). What has been the conduct of this
House in that respect? Not longer ago than last See.,
sion, this House countenanced a negociation with the'
Bank of England, to induce them to relax a little the
monopoly which that Establishment enjoys by Charter,
in order that Joint Sock Companies should be esta-
blished in vat ions parts of the country, for the purpose
of securing persons engaged in trade from the loss
to v. hich they were exposed by the then existing
system of currency. We quoted as an example Scotland,
where the Charter of the Bank of Sc..tland does not
prevent the formation of Joint Stock Companies. 1
am astonished to hear Gentlemen of business—l am

astonished to hear the 'Worthy Alderman, talk of
mining carried on by Joint Stock Companies, as a
new discovery, as a thing of recent date. I tell those
Gentlemen—l tell the Worthy Alderman—that there
has not been a mine worked in this country, time
out of mind, except by means of J int Stock Com-
panies—and without the formation of such Companies,
those mines would not have been explored, and, there-
fore, could not be made advantageous to the public.
All the mines in Cornwall, all the mines in Wales, and
in the other mining districts, are carried on by John
Stock Companies. I lament, Sir, very much, that the
law is not in a more satisfactory state with respect
to those Companies. All I say is, that it ought to
be the policy of the law to encourage Joint Stock
Companies, and that it is a mischievous policy to attempt
to dissuade persons from engaging in them, or to take
away their character; and that, when embarked in
properly and fairly, they are beneficial to the public
interests, and are fraught with great public advantages.
I do not now speak of the bubbles of the last two years.
I have no hesitation in saying, that those who have been
concerned in those speculations have disgraced them-
selves, if they knew, at the time they engaged in them,
that they were not likely to tend to the public benefit—
(Hear, hear). No man can deny that, or contend to the
contrary, for a moment—(Cheers). I, for one, can say,
that when the discussions connected with those bubbles
took place in this House, I was always ready to raise
my hand against them—(Cheers); and to use what
little weight or influence I possess, in dissuading the
public from connecting themselves with ephemeral
schemes, so fraught with fraud and delusion in many.
sad with obvious risk and hazard in other instances. I
ask the worthy Alderman, who was not a Member
of the House when the discussions upon those Com•
1 panics took place—l ask other Honourable Mem-
bers, who had the honour of being Members of this
House when those discussions took place, when, among
many others, the Milk Company, and the Brick Com-
pany, were brought under the notice of the House,
whether I did not caution the public against engaging
in those speculations—(Hear)? However, such was the
weakness, the folly, the blindness, or the avarice of
some persons, that the caution was not listened to, and
the consequences which have followed, are well known,
and I trust they will operate as a wattling to others not
to follow their example. I wish that there could be
devised a law to prevent persons from engaging in bub-
bles, and I am willing to go with the Worthy Alder-
man in investigating the proceedings of those Comps.
vies, and in punishing those who shall be found to have
entrapped °Oen to engage in speculations which they knew were
not likely to be beneficial to the public, but I cannot join in a sense-
leu clamour against a principle of commerce and improvement,
:11. which has e isted fur years in this country, and which has been
acted upon the benefit and advantage of the public at Lige.
Colon DAVIES, as a Director of a Joint Stock
Company, defended himself from the imputations cast
upon Directors in general, and said that he had lent
himself solely with a view to promote the progress of science and
improvement in the country.
Mr. HUDSON GURNEY contended for the necessity and uti-
lity of Joint Stock Companies.
Mr. ROBERTSON said, that the allusions of the
Hon. Alderman have been so completely answered by
other Members, that it was impossible his motion could
be entertained by the House. He was sute that the Hon.

Alderman had no intention of mixing up the ephemeral
Companies of the last year, which were so justly called
44 Bubbles," with the respectable and established Com.
ponies, which had so mainly contributed to the advance-
ment of the public advantage. He, nevertheless, fully
agreed in the impropriety of Members of that House suffering their
names to be placed on the lists of those Companies, Instead of
attending to their more imperious duties—(Hear).
Sir C. FORBES said, the Hon. Alderman had had
the spirit and fortitude to say within the House what
was universally said without it, with respect to the con-
duct of those Members who had been connected with
the speculation in question. With respect to the allu-
sion by the Hon. Member for Midhurst to the Austra-
lian Company, he would ask 11,1 n whether it was not
founded on a monopoly, to be continued for twenty
years? Were not his Majesty's Government bound to
allow no patent to any other Corporate Society, having
similar objects, for that period ? Had they net got a
rant of one million of acres of land, in New S.,uth
Wales, worth 250,0001. ? Was not this Company at
present considered a job of the most flagrant description in that
country, where he believed it originated? 'This (he had it from
the best authority) was the fact. He hoped the lion. Alderman
would meet that support from the House that he deserved. With
respect to an Hon. Member of that House, he thought be would
be perfectly absolved from blame had he given up the money which
be received.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said, he did not understand why
the Australian Company should be called a job. The
object was to obtain a species of fine wool, which could
be got no where else; and it was not more than neces-
sary that some property should be granted to them in
the country. The whole transaction was highly credi-
table to the Government ; and one good effect produced
by the Company was, that it had reclaimed a nation of Savaps,who
were described by all writers as the most ferocious in the world.
No injury had arisen to any one from the formation of the COMr
pany, but a great deal of public good.
Sir CHARLES FORBES explained.
Mr. WILMOT.HORTON said, that the worthy
Baronet, who had just sat down, had been pleased to
state upon (as the Hon. Baronet had stated) undeniable
authority, received from New South Wales, that the
Australian Company was a job. He denied in Soto
the observation, that the Government had incautiously
and improperly given a bonus to the Company, and he
would advise the Hon. Baronet, when he should next

think fit to snake any statement in that House respect-
ing the conduct of the Government, not to make it
upon his " undeniable authority," because he (Mr. Wil-
' mot-Horton) could assure the Hon. Baronet, that his
" undeniable authority" had led him into error and mis-
representation—(hear), and was founded upon miscon•
ception. The formation of the Colony alluded to had cost
the Colonial Department much troubleband it was formed
upon the principle that nothing could be more beneficial
in its immediate consequences tor New South Wales, and
ultimately for this country. To talk of monopoly by grant-
ing one million acres in a district in which there were
twenty million of acres of the same quality, and in a
country where there was land to an unlimited extent,
was perfectly absurd. The Hon. Baronet had said this Company
was a job ; but he (Mr. Wilmot-Horton) would say, that although
that Company, as well as the Canada and Van Diemen's Land
ComPanies, were framed by the Government, there was not a
single share in them held by any person connected with the Colonial
Department.
Mr. HART DAVIS defended the Australian Com-
pany. The sheep had been purchased from different
persons, and according to their value. It was already a
flourishing concern, which was proved by the fact of
the twenty-four Directors now holding mote shares than they ori-
ginally did. Fur his own part he had never sold a single share, and he
was satisfied that the Company was formed on public principle.
Mn CH A RLIIS TAYLOR reproved tbe system of speculating
• which had been but too prevalent, and thought the Inquiry necessary.