Star.
London, England, 1819-02-10 00:00:00

?Oen LAWS.

Mr. STURGES BOURNE rose to move for the
revival of the Committee on the Poor Laws. It was
within the recollection of the House, that from the
ktudablc labour and researches which the Commit Lee
had made, services of the first iraportance to the
community might be expected. Mr. S. Bourne then
gave a kiwi of abstract of their proceedings. The
Committee were well aware that it had to encoun-
ter many serious difficulties ; but he had no doubt
but that every obstacle would be removed, and that
I^9 far as the united wisdom and talents of such a
Committee could accomplish, many benefits would
be derived to the public: The present state of the
Poor Laws claimed the immediate attention of Par-11
Barnette. The deliberations of the Committee would
go to check, if not to remedy, a great, a growing,
and an alarming evil. If Parliament did net soon
legislate some amendment of the laws, the distresses
of the poet would increase with the difficultiet of
the times. But the grievances which the Committee
were called upon to redress did no:: bear %Ton the
poor alone, but affected in an alarming degree every
landholder. Pauperism had arrived to such an enor-
mous height, that the time might come, if not pre-
vented by the interposition of Parliament when the,
landholder would be obliged to sacrifice the whole
profits of the soil for the maintenance of the poor.—
In recommending the immediate revival of the Com-
mittee, he • mattered himself with the personal aid
and concurrence of an Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman (Mr. Brougham) whose abilities would give
weight to their deliberations. Should they even fail'
to produce at once all the desired effect, the country'
however would be satisfied, that no effort would be:
wanting on this momentous occasion. After severall
other remarks, Mr. Bourne moved for the revival of
the same Committee fotmerly appointed to inquire
into the state taf Poor Laws, and to report their opi:
nions thereon.

Mr. CUR EN rose, under the impression; he
said, of considerable feelings of pain, as he felt him-
self called upon to oppose t'i' present Motion. He
was against the re-appointment of the Committee.
because lie was of opinion, that the House, from the
voluminous Reports of former Committees, had a
sufficiency of details before them. The business at
present, he thought, was not to collect more details,
hut to take an enlarged and general view of the sub-
ject•in its most extensive bearings, for the purposes
of speedy and of legislation. And this could
not be more effectually done by any persons than it
could by the Government of the country, who had the
whole informationfully within their reach. From the
very nature of the system itself, it was manifest that
the evils of the Poor Laws had been greatly in-
creased. And surely it did not require much saga-
city to see that those who are sure of being provided
for at the expense of others. will not take much tmu-
ble in providing for themselves. Though there were
early /nods of the demoralizing tendency of the sys-
tem. yet these proofs, and the evils to which they re-
lated, had been at least quadrupled within the last
:25 years. Of this event, there were three great
causes, viz. excessive taxation, a great depreciation
of money, and a consequent rise in the prices of all
the necessaries of life. To attempt to remove the
evils of the present system of the Poor Laws. with-
out removing or lessening these three great evils.
would be but a mere mockery of legislation. tHear.)
As the Government had the whgle situation of the
country before them, it was they that were called upon
to act with energy in this business. -Within the last
twenty-fire years, the prices of wages had increased
only one-fourth, while the prices of the necessaries
of life had increased one-third.—(Hear, hear ).—The
taxes upon salt, leather, soap, and coals, were the
heaviest burden on the shoulders of the labouring
poor. What he had to pay on these accounts alone,'
amounted to, at least, one-ninth of the labourer's.
income.—(Hear, the House were anxious
that the country Should preserve its proud situation.
they should exert themselves to raise and better the
condition of the working orders. Though he could
not concur in the very flattering statements of the
prosperity Of the country, which, he understood to
have been made by the Noble Lord last night, he
would say, that it was incumbent upon all, even from
the Prince down to the lowest individual, to make
considerable sacrifices in the present condition of the
country. Instead of having decreased, the sum for
the maintenance of the poor had been progressively
increasing. And though the farmers complained that
they were most heavily taxed for the maintenance of
the poor, yet he must affirm, that they paid only no-
minally, whilst the payments came ultimately from
the pockets of the great proprietors. Would it not'
be better, at once, and directly, to lighten the bur-
dens on the people, and to place them upon real
property ? He was persuaded, if the. present sys-
tem was allowed to continue, that the whole mass of
the people would be ultimately pauperised.—(Hear).
He acknowledged that the article potatoes was one
of the greatest blessings which Pnovlnitecn had
afforded to the poor, but he deprecated it as a staple
national food, became it contributed so largely to
the increase of population. The whole policy of
Administration as to the Nor Laws, was 'contracted
and unjust. It recognized principles which, when

they were acted On, produced the worat of conic.
quences. The pittance to each' individual vaho a:4%
the object of relief, was regulated according to e,,e
standard wants of the unmarried man. and the milt
of this system he needed not then detail. He agree{
with the Noble Lord that ;t was better to employ
people in some way or ether, if it were only in dig.
ging day out of a ditch and throwing it back agair
than to leave them without employment, and cal.:.
quently without any wages, But the c;suilties to
which agricultural labourers were subject, had :,:ca
always so peculiar, tiatt it became imperative r,4
Parliament to take t..e:n under its protectira,
discouragements to combination .met a-11h dredcd
consent, because they more particularl applied to a
class of labourers whose services could not be d:e
pensed with, and therefore their caprices should l;e
guarded against—he meant the manafactuling
bourers— (hear, hear). But the agricaltural
was excluded from all combination : he was tat,
taut, too disconnected from all those lalla
able to associate with kiln; and, at w‘a !;e r7a
at the mercy of his master, who could easily 03
without him for many months in the year—(l!,..,
hear, hear). There would be, therefore, great svi,.
dote and justice in fixing the wages of the latter
class of labourers. In those of manufacturers, it vial
utterly impossible to make a standard, because the
proprietor aas at all times to be goveraed by a,
many foreign circuinstances in the payment of hi. men.
The Bill introduced by the Hon. Gentleman .tea.
tamed several clansa: worthy of approbation. Them
was one law included in this Bill, to which he
wished particularly to draw the attention of uL
House, namely, the law relative to settlematr_
(Hear, Itar, ).ear.)—But in effect, what v.-a; the
cb-
ject of the Bill after all Supposing ever :at cyciy
thing it contemplated was put effectaally
tion, still nothing would be gained. ft a...
sides its other deficiencies, a most re: If :IS g
namely, bastard. Ile would state, '7.'iTC2t fear
contradiction, that out of 19 miniver, cf the er;.a...
tion of the country, tie and a kit' were ha-lardt !-
The total inadequacy of the law to protect the publ:c
fund, as well as to provide redress to th.e ;n'ared
Lies, amounted to a very cruel opir-eson. 1-ae Cer-
mittee had now sat for two years, :tad the retelt
their labours hits bten but very sliehtly felt as -yet.—
Nothing, in short, could remedy the great evil whi•!l
we complained 0", but the rernosail of an eaorna ;
taxation-Hear, hear.)—The Committee were :...-
coMpetent to produce any amelioration of Ilasae
grievances, because they bad not saffident power :a
go to the root of them. They were unable to erigi.
nate any measure of themselves, and their label'. ca
this account must always prove aborsive. The gre3
and effectual alteratien ceald aloae ber made by
those in whole power :t was to amend the finalae
system of the country ; and unless they thought pr.,-
per to come forward, and iaterfere to the nctes,a,y
extent, all hope from any other measure, or any atlas-
quarter, was chimerical.--(Hear, hear.)

I, lc

11CC,

Lord CASTLEREAGII observed that, in his opi-
nion, die proposition of his Honourable Friend by no
means led to a general discussion of the Poor Laws.
(Hear, hear.) if those laws were to be circumstau-
contidered by the House, the proper time for
such a discussion was when the Bill would be intro-
duced before Parliament--(Near.) It contained eight
or nine clauses, embracing the whole important run
of the, Poor Laws, and when these should be pro-
pounded, a very fair opportunity opened for observa-
tion upon diem. lie heard the Honourable Gentle-
man who spoke last at all times with pleasure, bat he
must say that the remarks which had fallen from him
were calculated rather to give the House an idea
that it was the Finance System,' and licit the Poor
Laws that became the subject of his consideration—
(hear, hear.) If the Honourable Gentleman though:
he discovered a plan of .amelioration, by removing
the burtliens of taxation from one part of the com-
munity to the shoulders of another, it was a secret in
political economy with which Ministers were totally
unaequaisted, and before his Majesty's Government
should be called upon to adopt the NOR. Gentleman's
suggestion, it was but reasonable to expect thst be
would communicate the charm bywhich it craild Le
effected. Ministers ha-I not taken up the subject of
the Poor Laws, and they were accused of supineness
on that account:, but he (Lord Castlereagh) protested
against such animadversions. Ministers were aIIX4Y.IS
to avoid outrunning the Committee or the House.
They apprehended, that if they originated any mea-
sures upon these questions, it would be less accept-
able to the country, merely because it might be
looked upon as a boon ; whereas, having waited to
identify themselves with the House, and taken only
the part of individuals in any proposed measure,
they would obviate all the jealousies and unpleasant
feelings with which, as a Government measure, it
might have been received--(Hear, hear.) The Com-
mittee had produced great improvement in the ge-
neral administration of the Poor Laws, althont:
they found that it was impossible to make a more
extended one, without involving an injury to rho
personal rights which the poor might have esteer:23
as their unalienable property. It was unfair to st 7.
gest that Government had been guilty of remissne,;:.
since, if their interference was required, the Come.' :-
tee would not have failed to demand it—(llt.er. ke.: •.)
With respect to the state of the country, he was luny'
borne out by facts in the prosperous view he bad
taken of it ; and the existence of distress among the
poor was not to be considered as injuring the troth o.
those statements, since it, could not be deniad that
there never was a moment in the most brilliant pe-
riod of our history, when distress could not be found
in some quarter or other—(Hcar.)--There never w 1;
a country that so speedily emerged from depressica
as this, altogether. ' The Committee were proceed-
ing.in their labours, and there was nothing that r:-
perience, talent, and assiduity could atore,
might not be expected from the Committee. Thy
were formed of individuals whose characters
for themselves, and among whom no party .
was suffered to prevail—(Hear, hear.)
t'lrt

Mr. W. BURRELL stated, that in the Parish es
West Grinstead, the proportion between the ability al
the inhabitant, and the necessary supp7y for the poet,
was oppressive in the extreme. A number of the
bourers were employed at six-pence a day in the
stone (patties' and the deficiency was made up to
them out of the Poor Fund. This state of things
existed not only in this parish, but throughout Sii•
.elf and its vicinity. The %lost ran of the young

e'en v;te pl.4ced the workhouse of that
fc; want of employment.
WELLESLEY opposed the re-appoi• lumeni,l
;:,is Committee. Every one knew that the poor were
:,..e most abject state, and that no time was to be
~.: n:lieving them. Had the Committee done
thing to relieve the poor, he would have voted
its re-appointment. He had no doubt that the
;as of labour might be found for the poor. It
,;he duty of Government to set some measure of
.; before the cenntry ; and he could not" conceive
lotion for any Ministry, than to be en-
ating the burdens of the poor.
AITMIAN could not agree with the
the increasing prosperity of the coon-
;-oand in his own parish the distress of
csing up to this moment. The great
,our arose from the want of gardens to
Many Inclosure Bills had passed the
•ctcrce of g!ving employment to the
T.: for extending Noblemen and Gen-
, and not one foot of land was given
:n one of the•parishes of his Ward, up-
persons were summoned for non-pay-
poor rates, and found incapable. No-
lernedy this.evil but a relief from the
:7 oppress the country.
JOU supported the motion for the

hoped, that if the Committee were re-
:), would not forget the interests of the
!meinhering those of the rich.
ittce was then ordered to be appointed.
WAGER BY BArELE.

itNEY-GLNERAL rose to move for
in a 13111 to abolish the trial of Wager
he question has several times been
e Parliament, but not with a view to
lition. The proceeding by Appeal, in
and other felonies, was very ancient,
li.om a want of civilization. In some

1 ben carried into effect, contrary to
le Appeal for murder was of-Allis de-
n r man ought to be put upon his

1. baring been acquitted 4y. a compe-
The earliest altc:•ation made in this
by M:igna Clinita, in which no woman

.cept the widow of the murdered man.
aitien was, that a man acquitted of zuur- ,
,e appealed within a year and a day,
t.ll this manifest absurdity, that a man
,der, and convicted of manslaughter„
that conviction, in bar for an A ppeal of
So that an Appeaintflhe Trial by Bat-
ty instances the oniy.mode in which a

vent himself from icing made a z.acri.
; exposed Loa second trial. The trial

Battie for Arson, or Robbery,. in
, never resorted to. Another reason for
this barbarous custom was, that if a nian
ed the King, had no power to pardon
lellor alone being able to do so.; and it
fc:C.virg or vindictive spirit to deter-
cf his adversary. Ile then moved for
in. a Bill to abolish Trial by and AP-

~,e,..

entirely concurred in every obser-
al bcen made. It was almost impos-
rria.4 ro trial a second time before an
17!.y. lie.rlist,-hi the spirit of reform
lip v. i 0 let alter.llions which

t,sa:y.

;AL rciected the Attorney-General to
her there Nms not ral. -Appeal for treason

'OIINEY-CitliTIAT, said, he btlicved
:eason were abolished.
NAL believed not for treason beyond
spoke from memory.
)11 was then agreed to.
of the Cutlery Trade Bill was agreed to, and the
be rend a thl;4l time on Friday.
of the Committee of War. and Means rig
1 agreed to.
,RNEY-GENERAI. brought up the Trial by
in BM, which was read a first time, and ortirred
:and time on Friday next, and to be printed,
DEN•brom:ht up the Excise Duties Bill on Malt,
&c. which was read a first and ordered to be
is= to-morrow.—Adjoureed.

A LIST OF THR MINORITY
a:'; POMP ron ATIONO 1114 PROCGr A 71.5 warty SO
'ET PO/ IMO Wit AFTAIIi.- Or Slit PANE

la. J. Findlay, K. Newport, (..ev J.
Forbes, C. Onslow, Arthur
cunt Fazakerley, N. O'Callaghan, .T.
Fe.rgeson, Sir R. C. Ord, William
Fitzgerald, Lord W. Minimum, Dr.
Ant riemicg, John Protheroc, R.
W. Gaskell, Benjamin Palmer, C. F.
Gordon, Robert Pares, Thomas
Graham, I. R. H. Parnell, Sir H.
.ph Utahans, Sandford Peirse,
Grosvenor, Thos. Phillips, G.
ies Grenfell, Pasroe Phillips, G. jun.
W. Griffith, John N. Phillips, C. M.
)11 Gldie,'Fir W. Price, R.
H. G. Hamilton, Lord A. Power, R.
Harvey, D. N. Ramsder, J. C.
lier.thcrte, Sir G. Ridley, Sir M. W.
f. Howard, Her. W. Roberts, W. T.
Howorth, 11. Roberts, A.
Ir W. W. 1,. Russell, Lord Wm.
lon. Hume,Joseph Russell, Lord O. W.
r W. de lintrhinson, Hon. C. Russell, Lord John
les Kennedy, Thomas Raw% R. C.
Lamb, Hon. W. Sefton, Karl of
ord 0. Latotiche, J..bn Smith, William
-vain Lemon, Sir W. Smith, Sam.
Longman, Geo-ge Smith, George
Leigh, Tlnmas Smyth, J. 11.
N. J. 'Rake. Wiiiiarn Stewart, Lord Jimres
:tsar LystLr, R. Tavistock, Marquis
Lord Macleod, R. Taylor, 111. A.
lam.ael Macdonald, James Tierney, Rt. llen.G.
11. Mackintosh, J. Wodehouse. Ed.
'hones ltladocks, W. A. Waithman,Alderrran
r. J. Maitland. J. S. Webbe, G.
William Martin, John Wharton, John
too. F. S. Methuen, Paul rliitbread,
,Vkcouut Mazwell, Wilkins, W.
ton. L. Milbanko,lidark Wilson, Sir Robes!
m. G. Mills, G; Wood, Alderman
!Altus Monek, Sir C. SVion, CW.
Moore, Peter
Vi...teunt • TELLFIVL
c..a% Newman. B. W. Calcraft, John .
c.rd Nevillk, Hon. R. Lambton, J. G.
...r1 of North, Dudley

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