Star.
London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

..,
Meer) faarl. —Dot Could anything 6 more ridicu-
lous than this mode of irgurnentl The Noble Lord
had niisiepresented the arguments of his Honourable
and Learned Friend. His Honourable aiidLearned
'Friend had not proposed these clauses fur the par.
• pose of insinuating any calumnies against his Ma.
jestv's Ministers; on the contrary, he had distiocdy
stated that his object was to repel such ealuirmieri.
He (Mr. Scarlett) could not believe Out the Nobly
Lord would make any improper use of the poieere
conferred by this-Bill ; yet it was extremely pdssible
that the Noble Lord might be suspected, and he
would tell the Noble Lord why--(Near, hsar ! )
He did not believe that the country at large enter.'
mined that opinion of the perfect integrity and free-
dom from all motive which the Noble Lord could
not but entertain of himself. The very circumstance
to which the Noble Lord had alluded in proper terms
of reproach, was a proof that the public opinion of
his Majesty's Government was not what the Noble
Lord thought it deserved. The Noble Lord had said,:
in answer to his Honourable and Learned Friend,
that he had satisfied the House on former occasions,
and there was, therefore, no occasion to repeat his
arguments. Now, he would ask the Noble Lord whe-
ther the existing circumstances of Europe might not
render some arguments necessary to justify the re.
newal of this Bill ? Was there no change of circum-
stances in the last two years P Had nothing 'beers
done to secure the safety of this empire ? Were we
still expOsed to the danger of revolution from foreign
incendiaries? Surely, if it was necessary to renew
this tyrannical Bill, it was necessary to accompany it
with a statement of the circumstances which ran•
dered it imperative upon GovernMent to continue it.
If such a Bill were to be carried at all, he rather
wished that its provisions shpuld be as odious and
tyrannical as possible, because there would be the
less chance of its becoming a permanent measure,.
He was ready to pat a rust compliment to the talents
and eloquence of the Noble Lord, by expressing his
belief, that if he had chosen to make the measure
permanent, his powers of persuasion would not have;
been unsuccessful in that House. • With respect to
the constitutional grounds of this measure, he thought
no man could do credit to himself or good to the
country by looking back for precedents to the age of
the Tudors. The practice of that age was incon-
sistent with the liberties of the country, and deserved
to be held up to execration rather than example. He
would look 'only for authorities to the time of the
Kevoluticrn, and to subsequent periods, and he was
prepared to contend, that the Crown had never had
the prerogative which enabled it, in time of peace, to
dispose of the persons and liberties of Aliens, in the
=ander in which Government was empowered to do
by the provisions of this Bill.
Mr. W. POLE could not forbear making *smear-
servations upon what had fallen from the'lleo„.iiid
Learned Gentleman who had just sat down. That
Learned Gentleman had asserted in round terms; that
the conduct to which his Noble Friend had alluded,
was a proof of the suspicions which the Public enter-
tained of his IVlajesty's Ministers. He presumed that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman alluded to the out-
r -geous violence which had been exhibited at Dover
towards certain individuals who landed there, because
it was supposed that they came for the purpose Of
giving evidence on the approaching important state
proceeding. Did the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
call that act the expression of public opinion? It
was the act of a rabble. He readily allowed that the
rabble were hostile to the present Administration.—
He hoped they always would be so. It was a proof
that the present Administration had acted with
energy, and had successfully supported the dignity
of the Crown, and the interests bf the country.—
put, on account of this abominable and scandalous
outrage, which the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man chose to consider the expression of public opi-
nion, the House of Commons were called upon to
throw a slur on Government, in the face of the Public
and the world, by indicati such' a suspicion of
Government as to withhold from them the powers
with which they had formerly been entrusted. He
wholly subscribed to the declaration of his Noble
Friend, that if his Majesty's Ministers were found at-
tempting—not what the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman himself, but, according to himothe Pub-
lic suspected they would 'attempt—if they not only
did take no means to prevent persons from coming
forward to give evidence for her Majesty in the pend-
ing proceeding, but if they did not give every possible
facility, at home and abroad, for the production of
such witnesses, they would deserve to be driven from
their offices with degradation and disgrace. He feared
that he was intruding on the patience of the House.
It was this apprehension alone which induced him to
remain silent on former occasions, when the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, and other Hon. Gentlemen
accused Ministers, as if they were the vilest, lowest,
anti most incompetent of human beings! The Hon..
and Learned Gentleman had, night after night, called
his Majesty's Ministers a weak, vacillating, disjointed,
wretclfed Administration, incapable of conducting
the affairs of the country, enjoying no confidence any
where—[Mr. Scarlett appeared to deny having used
those terns]. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
a short memory. Did he say that he had not meant
to describe Ministers as a wretched, miserable, vacil-
lating set of men ? He should be happy to hear the
Hon.-and Learned Gentleman disavow it.
Mr. SCARLETT said'he had no intention of dis-
avowing it.
Mr. W. POLE observed that he had a right then
to consider the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
as avowing it. '
Mr. SCA RLETT allowed that his meaning had the
-,
tendency supposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, hitt
trusted that he was incapable of using some of the
words imputed to him. He had called the Right
Hon. Gentleman's colleagues weak, vacillating, rind
incapable of administering the affairs of the council
in the present Crisis. Their acts and measures fully
justified his having so characterised them, and he
would so characterise them still 1 —(Heark hcar)—
He said this without intending personal disrespect
to any of the individuals of whom the Administra-
tion was composed ; but, as a Member of Parlia-
ment, he -was entitled boldly to'cleclare his opinion
of their conduct as a body I—(Heer,. hear). ' •
Mr. W. POLE was proceeding to snake torn!
further "marks on whit had fallen .from' the -non.
and Learned Genttenian, when
The SPEAKER. interfered, and reminded the
Right Hon, Gentleman of the great inconvenience

•
tilatlll4l4 arias, were the rules of the. itotiie Pei*
mit sys Hon. Member to refer to particular expres-
sions Feed in former. debates
`• Mr. W. POLE replied, that he should alwaYs boDi.
the Chair with that respect *Zilch was due to in.
*hen it was filled as It was at the present moment.,
Without, holever, referring to former debates, he
would advert to what the Honourable and Learned
'Gentleman *had pretty boldly stated in the present.
discussion. According to the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman, he (Mr. W. Pole) and his colleagues were
now a vacillating AdministratiOn—(Hear, hear,)—
they were now. an inconipetent Administration—
(Hear, hear,)—they were now a disjointed Aciminis•
tration—( Hear,hear.)—H is Majesty's present Govern-
ment were charged with 'wanting
,the confidence of
the House and of the country. Who were they who
so charged them? Had Ministers never appealed to
the House or to the People, that this absence of con--
fidenee on 'the part of both was so loudly asserted?
He would :tote it hypothetically : if it had so hap-
pened that they had, during the last few years, made
three or four appeals to the People, and had gained
strength in every appeal—if such had been_the ease,
with what grace could they be accused, after such
an ordeal, of wanting the confidence of the Public?
If it had happened that, on a great question in the
last Session—a question which the leader of an ad-
verse party had declared, in? plain, open, and coun-
try gentleman-like manner, was a question whether
Ministers should stay in or go out, that wretched
Administration had beat their opponents three to one,
would they then have been told that they wanted the
Confideaceof the House of Conimons? He had long
wished for an opportunity of touching on these things.
He would say nothing of the conduct of the Geode:
men oppchitts during the late war. He would say
nothing of their prediction, that not one of our sol-
diers would land-in the Peninsula who would not re-
main there as a prisoner. He would say nothing of
their unvaried anticipations of the triumph of Bona-
parte. The Public plainly saw that' these men ofi
genius—these animadverters upon the conduct of
others, with all their talents and all their confidence,
were eternally in the wrong; as he trusted to Goo
they 'always would be-4Loidlaughtty)—and that
when they came to tbepoint, they were wholly in.
effective and feeble. He was, sorty to see that what
he had said had agitated the Honourable and Learned.
Gentleman—(taughter). He truly and conscientiously'
declared, that the only question for the House to de--
termine simply was, if, by adopting the proposed
Clause, they would throw a 'slur on his Majesty's Go-
imminent which had not been cast upon them by any
former douse Ornimmons ?
-Mr. SCARLETT, in-explanation, said,. at what
he had observed was, that a great many persons out.
Of doors might entertain suspicions of the intentions
of Government, which certainly were not entertained
hy•limself. • .He.no more considered the sentiments
of such. persons to express the public opinion, than
he considered the votes of that House to expreis the
public opinion—(ffear,. hear).
-Mr. W. POLE said, he understood the Honour:.
able and Learned Gentleman way, that what passed
at Dover was a manifestation-of public .opinon.
• Mr. ABERCROMBIE was willing to put the dis-
cretion and judgment of the Administration 'upon
'the speech of the Right Hen. Gentleman (Mr. W.
Polel; sod 'Disported the propositions of his. Learned
Friend, not-on the ground that the powers vested in
the Government were likely to be abused, but be-
cause they were inconsistent with the spirit of the
British Government.- It was not that they (the House),
who knew Ministers; suspected them of any inclina-
tion to abuse the confidence reposed in them, but in
order to do away. with any false feeling which fo-
reigners might entertain of their liability to have an'
oppressive authority exercised over them. With re
gard to the proceedings (at Dover) which had been
referred to, he hoped they were only local, as they
rust undoubtedly be viewed with horror and dotes-
'tation by every man who had the spirit of an Eng-
lishman. -But, while.n6 native could look upon the
transaction without blushing, and a wish that it could
be expunged from our history, the natural impres-
sion upon foreigners must be that the people were
hostile to them and their cause, and it was to guard
.against this prejudice that the Resolutions were,
framed. While mentioning these, parties, he must
say, that it was a pity no better arrangement had
been adopted with regard to them, than that which
left thent to ride about the streets of the Metropolis
at midnight.

, .
Mr. R. MARTIN declared, that the Noble Lord
rnust.have established himself in therod -opinion of
the HoUse and 'the country by his declaration on a
recent evening, that Government would use every
means in their power to bring forward, from every
part of the globe, whatever persons her Majesty
nAt think' proper -to summon for her' (
vestment would forfeit the opinion of the
House and of the empire, if they dsd nOt do what
they had thus solemnly pledged .thandvor to pert-
form tc and he toad by no means, therefore, put an
inoperatiie clause, Eke that proposed by the Ho-
nourable and Learned Gentleman, in competition
with such a pledge.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH- said, that he would sot
attempt to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman *ppd..-
she through 'the various points of his speech--a
'speech distinguished by *so much moderation, so strict
an adherence to order, so complete in absence of un-
necessary digression, so thorough a self:command,
so abundant a portion of temper and discretion—
Thiser!).—As to the character of the present Admi-
:;dstration which' had been given by his Honourable
;and Learned Friend, of this he (Sir J. Mickintosh)
.4was certain, that if any man out of that House were
'asked *at character, he would reply that it was a'
:weak, vacillating, and disjointed Administration.--
'What else could be said of an Administration that
adopted an accusation.. against a high and (Pain-
pished Individual one moment, and disclaimed it
the nextthat one day evinced:a spirit of decided
and unalterable hostility tothat individual, and on
the neat willingly laid the majesty of Pa'rliamitrit at
her feet, in the hope, by conciliation, ofceirtiotingli
eonipromis' e ?:—(Haar, hear 1)7.7-Whet:xis. -could be,
bisid of an Administration; that assembled the xeliole,
force of 'the:Scum of Commons. AO sinctintri pro
ceeding unpreiedented and dngerckosa prefeedilig
:which wasitereat an infrititiOn ()fits principles
as it
was a degradation of its dignity—a proceeding which
espOsed it to the risk of a greater outrage than it
lad 'been exposed to during the six centuries which


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'9.

gad tiepin' siiiiiiitS instittitibn o—(liiiii, 10,4_1..
Thidet those ciretimitaltres, there was ,ho Min, if: tie,
Capital at least, who could describe his Majesty s.
present Government in other terms than those td•
which he had alluded, without subjecting himselfl .
latent and heatky laughter; and he could assure tl
Noble Lord, that such was the feeling out bf &Out_
no lest of those who sincerely supported the general
measures of himself and his colleagties, then of those
who Wire their determined opponents. The Noble'
Loid and the !tight Honourable Gentleman had alto-
gether passed_ unnoticed the main argument which
he (Sir J. Mackintosh) had -urged in favour of the
proposed clause, naively, the necessity of removing
from the Aliens„.who were summoned as witnesses
on the approaching solemn proceeding, all appre;
hension that the powers vested by the Bill in his Ma-
jesty's Government would be exercised to their in
convenience or disadvantage. He appealed to the
House if that argument had been so weak, so prima
facie absurd, as to deserve to be thus passed our in
contemptuous silence? And if not passed over of
that ground, the inference was, that it was unani
swerable. The Noble Lord had charged him with
not having alluded to the late conduct of the mob
at Dever--conduct which, unquestionably, was most
infamous and disgraceful--(Hear, hear, hear).---
But that conduct was punishable by the law as it
stood. It was punishable by preferring a Bill before
a Grand Jury. The Attorney General had sufficient
means of prosecuting the perpetrators of that out..
rage. The interposition of the Legislature was wholly
unnecessary. If he (Sir James Mackintosh) were td
meddle with the ordinary administration of the law
in that case, he might be justly accused of needless,.
it not mischievous interference. And by whom had
be nevertheless been called upon to interfere ? By
those who, iu the last Session, prevented Parliament
from inquiring into the most serious and important
transactions, on the ground that it was inexpedient
to inteAre with the ordinary course of law-4Hearl. _
He denied that the clauses which he proposed hi-
volved any reflection or insult towards Goternment.*
Was there a single prerogative in the whole of our
Constitution against which our ancestors had not pro-
vided securities? Were those securities considered
to be insults? According to the principle of the
Noble Lord, the Habeas Corpus Act, the. Bill of
Rights, and every other provision which Parliament
had made for the maintenance of the liberties of the
People—nay, our liberties themselves, were so many
insults to Government—(Cries of Hear, hear, hear).
Such a principle was applicable 'only to such Go-
..
.vernments as those of Turkey and Algiers--,(Hear,
hear, hear).—Our most sacred and valuable laws
were founded on jealousy of the Crown .; but all
these guards and securities of English liberty were
proscribed and anathematised by the Noble Lord in .
a single sentence. So far from Wishing to avoid
such restrictions as those now proposed, it was ho-
nourable
to every Government to*adopt them as a
protection. against their own weakness, and' against
the calumnies both of their malicious and of their just
enemies. It arras a false pride which, instead of
taking that wise course, blustered and talked big of
pledges to the. Public, and of insults sustained by
the adoption of measures calculated to prevent the
occurrence of abuses. The only sure way in which
a Government could chew that it was determined not
to abuse its power was, to submit to have that poach
restrained by the law. All ether policy—all inti-
mation
of apprehended insult from the restrictiooof
power, was hyped isy when it proceeded from tyrants;
and weakness when it came from those who-enter: -,
tamed no bad intentions—(Hear, hear). -
• Mr. CANNING wished to make a few observaa
tions on what had fallen from his Honourable and
Learned 'Friend, if he were ant precluded from doing
so by the speech which his ,Honeurable and Learned
Friend had just made being considered in the nature
of a reply. As his Honourable and Learned Friensta
proposition was in.the shape of an Amendment, and
'not of an original Motion, it appeared to him (Mr.
Canning) that what his Honourable and Learned
Friend had just said could not be deemed a reply.
A short conversation ensued, between the Smuts, fiir.ilmas
Mocsnrrows, and Mr.euninto, on the point of order. Eventually,
Mr. CANNING proceeded, stating it to be his in-
tention to limit.his remarks within a very small com-
pass. His Honourable and Learned Friend had ab-
stained from answering that which was transcendently ,
the most important part of his Noble Friend's speech
—namely, that the proposed Clause was to prevent
an abuse of such a nature, that if his Majesty's poi
sent Ministers were supposed capable of pesmittiog
it, they were unworthy to remain for a single hour in
that capacity,- and Ought, not merely to be restrained;
but to be driven with seism and indignation from
their offices. ' His Honourable and Learned Friend
had said, that he had drawn up this Claim witheue
consulting any one. Certainly, his Honourable and
Learned Friend -could not have consulted the /Lin.
and Learned Gentleman near him; for that Hottotnd
Learned Gentleman .found in the character of hie
Majesty's Government a. necessity, which his lion,
and Learned Friend disclaimed, for the enactment,—,
To- the argument of his Honourable and Learned
Friend, that all . power was by our Constitution at'
tended with securities- against its abuse, the answer
was; that Against ordinary abuses every guard ought
to be established, but that the abuse which the pro-
posed clause contemplated was of so detesteble a na.,
cure, that no Legislature'in a civilized country ought
fora moment to anticipate its perpetration, but should
look at it in the same point of view as.that is which
the ancient Republic had. regarded parricide. If the
proposition were made in tenderness to his Majesty's.'
Ministers, they did not thank his Honourable and. •
Lea‘rned Friend.. If it were meant as a precaution ter
guard them against a temporary suspicion, it-was n
precaution that must prove ineffectual. If the clause • •
'were agived to, and if, with other matters the suspi,
'lion which either existed out of doors; 'or was-:to he . .
,created by the speeeheswithin those walls, Went tote .
,made ruatterpf history, what defence could the pree—.....-; -
sent Ministers have against thecharge, that they.teett , . - •••
sonotoriously-unjust, that Parlianiedt found it neceeir -.l' ~
saty to add a clause to the Alien Act to prevent theft' "f- ~' •
from• seeding but of the ecuntry the witnesses n hick
Queen :1:;.
Qaeen might find it necessary to call in her cietenee -.', „.,..
'Ministers could not hesitate betwgra da t -in4k ilia& '
1
-,r.
Ofinspicron. They 'preferred the present, knowing
that they could guard against its abiiLinuance by their
conduct—knowing they could et.a.touna and act it
down ; and that it would-be much better and,eatier
to do that, than to incur suspicion for the time to