Star.
London, England, 1821-05-22 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
mowed the Order of the day for the House going into
a Committee of Supply.
On the question for the SPEAKER leaving the Chair,
Mr. CREEVEY said, before going into the Com-
mittee of Supply, he must call the attention of the
House to an item in the Estimates for fortifications
in Bar badges, the sum of 125,900. The objection he
had to this sum was, that there was already a fund
for that purpose—he meant the four and a half per
cent. Leeward Island duties. It was true, he had
given a notice on this subject—(l/ear, hear)—Gentle-
meh might cry 'Hear; but he would ask how, though
he had already given a general notice on this sub-
ject, he could to-night agree to grant this sum in
supply, which ought to be taken from another fund?l
Ile would now move that the entry of the 16th of
March, 1701, be read—EThe entry'was read, and
stated a Resolution of the House of that day, for an
Address to her Majesty Queen Anne, stating that the
four and a half per cent. was granted for the purpose
of keeping in repair the fortifications of Barbadoes
and the Leeward Islands; a subsequent entry was
also read, by which it appeared that her Majesty did
direct that the fund should be so applied].—Mr.l
Creevey resumed. He was aware that this fund was
now applied in a different manner; it was now con-
sumed in pensions to Ladies and Gentlemen in this
town, and to Members of Parliament in particular.
He was aware, in any inquiry he might move into
the appropriation of this fund, he should have those
Ladies and Gentlemen against him. He must also,
on this occasion, advert to the manner in which the
present Estimates were voted. The last three or four
motions had been carried entirely by official men—
either by men holding offices themselves, or having
some one connected with them who did hold such
situations, and he knew he should have the four and
a half per cent. Gentlemen voting for thenuelves!

So in the case of the votes the other night for Lords
of the Admiralty, the three Lords of the Admiralty
voted for their own salaries, thus declaring their own
opinion that their services were 'worth £l,OOO a-year,
each. That it was contrary to the established usages
of the House that Members should vote on questions
in which they were themselves interested, was clearly
laid down by Mr. Hatsell, who in his book cited the
case of the Duke of Somerset's Estate Bill, in 1604,
when a member of the Seymour family, a Member
also of the House, was restrained from voting, on
the ground that he had an interest. Another case
laid down by Mr. Hatsell, regarded a question re-
lating to Great Yarmouth. A Member of the House
at that time (Sir T. Preston) was held interested in
that measure, and the House suggested the propriety
of his withdrawing; which suggestion, as Mr. Hat-
sell said, in compliance with common decency, was
adopted. He thought the old practice should be ad-
hered to, and that Gentlemen ought not to be al-
lowed to vote for the sums from which they them-
ielves were to derive a benefit. His Honourable
Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, was labouring
alone and single-handed against the united power of
Government, and he was desirous, of shewing the
House and the country the imperfect machinery with
which his Honourable Friend was obliged to work.
With respect to the present subject, he would now
propose a Resolution, which he thought no man could
oppose. If any one did oppose it, he could only say
he was at a loss to know how his understanding was
constructed. He concluded by moving a Resolution;

a That, in the Estimates now before the House, it appeared
that there was an item of £5,000 for repairing the fortifications
at Barbadoes; and whereas it appeared that the four and a half
per cent. Leeward Island duties were granted for the purpose of
repairing those fortifications, and that therefore the House ought'
not to vote this sum in the Ordnance Estimates, which was pro-
vided for in another fund."

Sir CHARLES LONG denied that the four and
a half per cent. Leeward Island fund was granted
for the purposes the Honourable Gentleman said.—
The Honourable Gentleman's arguments might ap-
ply, perhaps, to Barbadoes; but with regard to the
other Islands, the grant was a free unshackled grant'
to the Crown, and had been applied for a century
past as it was now employed, and regularßeturns
had been laid before Parliament on the subject ; and
it was a little too much for the Honourable Gentle-
man now to come forward and call on the House to-
alter that course which they had sanctioned fur a
century. year after year. Besides this, the Honour-
able Gentleman should have stated to the House that
the situation of Barbadoes was now changed'. 'lie
original grant was simply for the defence of the
Island ; but we have now changed the situation of
the Island, and made it a depot; and there was not
a single lawyer of eminence who had held the situa-
tion of Attorney or Salicitor-General for the last cen-
tury who had not been decidedly of opinion this fund
was legally applied, as it was now applied.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT wished to consider this
question► fairly. He agreed with the Right Honour.
able Gentleman, that there might be a difference of
opinion as to whether this fund should be applied to
Barbadoes or not; but one thing he would ask, sup-
pose it was not intended that this fund should be ap-
plied to the use of the Island of Barbadoes, was it
ever intended to be applied to corrupt Members of
the House? But the Right Honourable Gentleman
said the Attornies and Solicitors-General of the last
century had all sanctioned this grant, and the House
had never interfered. This observation seemed to
recognize the right of the House to interfere, and the
only question now was, whether the time for the inter-
ference of the House had arrived ? He, for one,
thought it had, and hoped the House would not suffer
it to be lost, but adopt the motion now before it.
Mr. GOULBL'RN defended the present mode of
appropriating the fund in question. The construc-
tion of the law, as given by the lion. Gentleman,
was not the correct one; and this was apparent even
from the conduct of the Assembly of the Island of
Barbadoes itself, which for many years subsequent to
the passing this Act, were in the practice of voting
annually a certain sum from their own taxes, for the
repair of the fortifications of the Island.
Mr. MONCK said, it never could have been the
intention of those who gave the Crown this large
fund that the whole of it should be given away ►n
pensions. The Honourable Gentleman said Parlia-
ment had now suffered this fund to pass for upwards
of a century, and therefore they ought not now to
interfere with it. If this argument was well founded,
it would have applied to the Droits of Admiralty ;
and the wholesome Bill of last Session on that sub-
ject would not have been passed. The Honourable
Gentleman said, the situation of the Island of Bar-
badoes was altered; so also were the circumstances
and situation of this Island. We have now, for the
first time, a National Debt of upwards of. 800 mil-
lions, and the People were overwhelmed with debts
and taxes. The Government, therefore, ought to be
the more economical : it WAS only by adopting the
strictest economy that faith with the public creditor
could be preserved, or that the People could support
the burthens of the State. The House then divided,

For the Motion - 58
Against it - - 86
Majority against the Motion - —29

The House then went into a Committee.

On the re-admission of strangers, :qr. Mores: was
on his legs, adverting to what passed list Session re-
specting the Coronation. He said that it would be in
the recollection of the House, that in the last Session
of Parliament, the sum of tlOO,OOO had been voted
for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the Co-
ronation. That vote had been passed under circum-
stances very different from those which existed at pre-1
sent. At that time it was not known whether her
Majesty would retutn to this country, and he there-
fore conceived that the expenses of the Coronation
had been calculated under the idea that she would
not be present at it. He, therefore, wished the Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) to give him an answer to two ques-
tions, on which every person felt a deep interest who
was at all solicitous for the honour of the Royal Fa-
mily. The,first question was, whether any provision
had been made for the part which her Majesty was
to have in the ensuing Coronation ? and the second
was, whether any, and what additional expense would
be incurred, in consequence of her presence in that
ceremonial? He had beard a rumour—but it was so
scandalous that. he could not attach the slightest cre-
dit to it—that while seats and accommodations were
being provided for the Peeresses, not any were being

provided for her Majesty—(Hear). Her Majesty was
as much Queen of the country as his Majesty was
King—(Cheers from the Opposition)—and was cer-
tainly entitled to some consideration on so important
an occasion. Any vote for such a ceremonial, how-
ever large 'it might be, would be willingly acceded
to by the country, if her Majesty were allowed to
form a part in it ; but if she were not—if the vote
was to be expended in mere party-purposes—and if
a Grand National Fete were to be converted into an
engine for the humiliation and degradation of the
Queen—(Hear)—the Public would be so far from
granting the expenses of it willingly, that he did not
know of any measure which would be more univer-
sally unacceptable to the country, however it might
be considered by the Members of that douse (Hear).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
jected to giving any answer to a question which was
put with so much irregularity. The Committee was
at present engaged upon a grant for defraying the
expenses of the Artillery; and the Hon. Gentleman
put to him a question relative to the expenses' of the
Coronation. He did not well know how these subjects
'were connected together. With respect to the ex-
pense of the Coronation, and whether it would ex-
ceed the sum voted last year, all he could say was,
that he did not intend, during the present Session,
to propose any additional vote.
Mr. MONCK had always understood, .that any
question respecting Expenditure, was regular in a
Committee of Supply. The Right Hon. Member
had declined to answer his question, and he hoped it
would be put by some Gentleman of more weight
and importance than himself in the House.
Mr. FUME said, the Right Hon. Gentleman had
given but half an answer to his Hon.Yriend's ques-
tion. lie would now put another. The Right lion.
Gentleman had said, no further sum would be re-
quired in the present Session; he would ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman, whether any further sum would be
asked in any future Session ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he could not give any decided answer to that ques-
tion, until he knew the amount of the whole expenses
—(Hear, hear, from Me Opposition Benches).—One
hundred thousand pounds had been thought sufficient
in the last Session of Parliament ; but when the Ac-
counts were made up, there might perhaps be.a fur.
ther sum required.
Mr. BENNETT commented on the observations
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the ques-
tion of the lion. Member (Mr. Monck) was irregular.
—lle denied that there was any irregularity in the
question. The good wholesome practice of our' an-
cestors was never to vote any Supplies till they had
a list of grievances before them. The practice of
giving long notice of motions was a modern practice,
)prom which be did not consider any good had re-
sulted to the People, but the contrary ; it was, in his
opinion, the practice adopted by our ancestors which
has secured to the People their.liberties.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the last
Hon. Member had stated correctly what had been
the ancient practice of the House, and Parliament
would determine which was the most convenient and
advantageous to the Public, that, or the practice now
pursued. Another Hon. Member had gone a round-
about way to put a question on another subject con-
nected with the Coronation. In reply to that ques-
tion, he had only to say that, by law, it was discre-
tionary with the Sovereign to call, or to omit to do
so, as he should think fit, the Queen Consort to the
honours of the Coronation. Her Majesty was, cer-
tainly, in the eye of the law, Queen Consort, but his
Majesty was at liberty to use his discretion on the
subject of her Coronation ; and he had no hesitation
in stating that himself, and his Majesty's other con-
fidential servants, were not prepared to advise his
Majesty to exercise that discretion by calling her
Majesty to the Coronation. He would only add, that
he should be fully prepared to take his full share of
responsibility for the advice he considered it his duty
to give his Majesty, and to answer any motion which
Gentlemen in their discretion, or rather in their indis-
cretion, might think fit to bring forward—(Hear).
Mr. BROUGHAM, did not expect this question
would have been brought forward on the present
occasion. As to what had been said of the law, and
the discretionary power of the King, by the Noble
Lord, he would not now enter into the question, but
he begged he might not be understood, as assenting,
by his silence, to the doctrine of the Noble Lord.—
Here the subject drops.
The Resolution for granting £94,356 for Artillery,
Dragoons, Garrisons, and Batteries, being passed,
Mr. HUME said, he plan adopted at the end of the
American war, that each battalion should consist of
ten companies, would effect a saving of £25,000, by
the reduction of the Staff, and a diminution of the
half-pay ; and that would be the case even if it were
necessary to keep up such a numerical force. He
thought the force might be reduced to six battalions.
He should move that £25,000 be deducted from the
grant. In the present Estimates many things had
been introduced that had never been done before.

Mr. WARD said, that it had teen thought better
to retain the Officers, and to part with the gunners,
on account of the experience and science necessary in
an Artillery Officer. That had been the view of the
late and also of the present Master-General of the
Ordnance.—A greater number of Officers was ne-
cessary on account of the Artillery Corps being more
widely dispersed than regiments of the line.
Mr. HUME stated, that after fifteen or twenty
years service, an Artillery Officer would not learn
anything in the present state of inactivity. The ques-
tion was not one of efficiency, but of expense, in the
present state of the country.
Sir U. BURGH said, that in the Peninsula war a
Captain of Artillery had the command of a Lieute-
nant-General, in consequence of the age of the supe-
rior Officer. At the battle of Waterloo, Sir G.Wood,
only a Lieutenant-Colonel, had the command of the
Artillery for the same cause. He must oppose the
motion of the Hon. Member. The Artillery Corps
had been already reduced by 22,000 men, and no
further reduction was practicable, consistently with
the good of the service.
Mr. BENNETT deprecated the idea of arguing
from a state of war to one of peace. The sole ques-
tion was, what was necessary in the present state of
the country ? There was something radically bad in-
the system, that made it necessary that a Captain
should perform the functions of a Lieutenant-General,
and such a system ought to be new modelled.
Mr. WARD said, that the number of Officers and

men in 1792 had been 3763 ; but had we then the
Colonies we have now, the number would hate been
5713, nearly the present establishment.
Mr. HUME only proposed that the Officers ef
three battalions should be placed on half-pay.
The Committee divided—For the Amendment, 1.;
—Against it, 43—Majority, 28.
The next Vote was for £31,812 tor the Royal
Horse Artillery of Great Britain for 1821.
£17,590 for the Corps of Royal Artillery Drivers.
£8,377 was moved for the pay of the Medical
Establishment of the Ordnance.

Mr. HUME said, that the expense of the Medical
Establishment had been increased ninefold since 174
There was a Director-General, with a salary of 1,095,
whose duties he could not understand.

Mr. WARD said, there had been no Medical E.t.a!,
lishment in 1792 ; but country practitionershad bee*
hired, wherever the corps had been stationed. rimt
had been found inconvenient, and it was much better
to carry a Medical Establishment along with the
corps ; 4,000 persons had the benefit of the Medical
Establishment at Woolwich. No limits were set to
the attendance of the Medical Establishment.

Mr. HUME stated, that the expense at If ooluich
exceeded that of the Medical Board. The whole 1.4
been a late Institution. He should move that £3,7:6
be deducted from the Vote.

Sir U. BURGH defended the original sum.
Sir J. YORKE thought the Director• General m of
be dispensed with.

A division took place .—For the Amendment, lc_
Against it, 47—Majority, 29.
The next sum was L:6610 for the Royal Academy
at Woolwich.

Mr. HUME stated, that the expense of the Cadets
at this Academy was most enormous. He •au nq
use in educating young men at this e.tablishme7—
when it was impossible to provide them with com.
missions ; as out of 37 Cadets, nine only could iv
provided for in that way.
Sir U. BUIR;11 stated, that the number of Cad:.:s
had been reduced from 180 to 130.

Mr. HUME was of opinion, that the numl er of Ca-
dets should be reduced to 40 or .50—(Hear).—Atal
events, the number should not exceed 100. Eighz
thousand pounds had been already voted for the Aca-
demy. He should move that this sum be reduced to
£3305, for the Civil Officers, Professors, and AListers.
Mr. WARD said, that b)‘ the arrangement now
adopted, the number of disposeable Commissim
would be doubled.

Mr. HUME said, that many of the Cadets were
put on the half-pay, which was a complete abuse of
that establishment, and a dead weight on the Pubic.
13y the original rules of the service, none could be
put on the half-pay till after a service of some years.
After some observations from Mr. WARD, Mr.
BERNAL, Sir H. HARDINGE, Sir U. BURGH, Mr.
Hymn, and Mr. BENNETT, the Committee divided:
—For the Amendment, 20—Against it, 63.
The sum of £I4SS was moved for fees on account
of the Ordnance Estimates for 1821.

Sir H. PARNELL objected to the way in which
the accounts were kept.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the fees came back to the Public in another shape.
Sir J. NEWPORT thought a new plan should be
adopted, if it was only to prevent the necessity of ex-
planations.
Mr. HUME said, he had moved for a Return of
all the fees paid at the Public Offices, and under
what authority. The sooner the fees were done away
the better.

Sir C. LONG said, that the fees were authorized
by Mr. Burke's Act. The surplus of the fees went
to the Consolidated Fund.—The sum was finally car-
ried without a division.
The sum of £39,124 was moved for the balance of
Eztraordinaries for the Ordnance for 1821.

Mr. HUME lamented, that the particulars of this
great sum had not been given to the House. The
whole expense of any Colony should be given to the
House. He could not tell why he was called upon
to vote a sum for Gibraltar, when £25,000 were pro•
vided for the repairs of that Garrison ; neither did
he see the grounds of the vote for Malta, the lonia
Islands, and Heligoland ; the expense of which this
year would amount to £ll,OOO. A large sum WU
also demanded for Gravesend. Two labourers fcc
Tilbury Fort were charged at Ll,lOO a-year. A
saving of £7OO a-year might be made by having
contract to carry troops over from Tilbury Fort. The
whole of the saving would amount to £3,000 a-year.
The expense of the Powder Mills at Feversham was
most extravagant, though no powder had been won-
factured there for some years, and the Mills bad been
let. The expense amounted to £B,OOO, though six in.
dividuals only were employed. The expense of ma-
nufacturing gunpowder was half-a-crown the pond,
while it was sold for 3d. Among other items, there
were £40,000 for stores, though old stores were sold
off every year. In 1796, the Commissary had only
10s. a-day, and he now had 30s. He thought we-
third of the whole sum might be reduced.
Mr. WARD said, that in the next Estimates the
different items would be carefully distinguished. Ido
new works would be found in the present Estimates,
as the only expense was for repairs. The expense d
the Colonies was less now than it had been in 173 L
After an accurate inquiry, it appeared that the eta•
blishment at Feversham could only be put down gra-
dually by selling off the stores, and that was now doing.
Sir W. CONGREVE stated, that Government
wished to be independent of the Contractors, stid
that had led to the erection of the mills at Feversbam,
and the extension of those at Waltham Abbey, by
which a saving had been effected of £1,573,000. By
an expense of 10s, a barrel, the whole of the air"
der might be regenerated, and a saving be made
of £750,000.
Mr. BERNAL thought that the sum of £60001:'
year for Sierra Leone was too great.
After a few word's from Mr. WARD, Mr. Holli
Sir W. CONGREVE, Mr. D. GILBERT, Mr. BENNIIIt
and others, the Committee divided—

For the Resolution . 99
For the Amendment . - - 53
Majority for-the Resolution - --41
The next Resolution was for £111,850 for Art
lery in Ireland.
Mr. HUME objected to this grant, as extravarF•
He complained particularly of the expenditure IS
the Storekeeper's department, amounting to £II,OOO,
which, he said, might be reduced to £4,000.
Clerks and Officers received larger salaries in Dublin

than in Woolwich; and he should now propose as an!
Amendment a reduction of £4,550 in the sum pfoposed.
11r. WARD defended the original proposition.
A long conversation followed, in which Sir HENRY
PARNELL, Mr. Home, Mr. HUTCHINSON, and others,
took a part.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the Com-
mittee divided.—For the original Motion, 92—For
the Amendment. 53.
On the re-admission of strangers into the Gallery,
the Committee were discussing the Resolution, for
granting to his Majesty the sum of £299,623 for
superannnations and half-pay.
This Resolution was agreed to ; as was also
£11,279 for a similar purpose; and £2,279 for the
Children of deceased Officers.
£36,000 for Widows Pensions and Retired Allow-
ances of Civil Officers 4
Mr. HUME objected to the Retired Allowances as
'extravagant. He thought the vote should be post-
poned, to afford time for inquiry, The grants were
many of them to young. and healthful men, and the
allowance to this description of men, who had not
served nine years, amounted to £4,978; and he would
now propose to reduce the vote by that sum.
After a few observations from Mr. J. Smarr, Mr.
WARD, and others, the Resolution was agreed to.
£3,581 18s. for Compensations, Superannuations,
&c. was also agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and the
Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, he understood it was in
contemplation by Government to send a Commis-
sicn over to Ireland to inquire into the state of the
Revenue of that country. He was harpy to hear
this; as, if Government took this subject into its own
hands, much good would be derived from it, pro-
vided the selection of Commissioners was well made.
Should the contrary be the fact, however, he feared
the result would be the reverse; and that, instead of
reform of abuses, every abuse and extravagance which
existed at present would be confirmed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
it was his intention to move for the appointment of
this Commission this very night. The principal ob-
ject he had in view was to assimilate the mode of col-
lecting the Revenue in the two countries.
The other Orders were then disposed of, and the House ad-
journed at One o'Cloek.
A

THE EV NN LNG STAR.