Star.
London, England, 1819-05-14 00:00:00

.Nowy

• :

40,040.'""40.1:4N...0.1111

that sum and what was necessary for the support of
the workmen was to be made good by the parish.
The Waif-pay system was most injurious in its effects,
as k caused all the young people in Coventry, who
were employed in the silk trade, to become paupers,
and produced in its results one of the most frightful
.pictures of debauchery, vice, and immorality, that
ever was known. He considered the greatest benefits
to have arisen from the Spitalfields Act. He had a
petition in his possession, which perhaps he ought to
have presented that night, which was signed by every
master manufacturer of Spitalfields. This petition
stated that Act to have been in force seven years, and
to have proved most beneficial to both masters and
journeymen. The Spitalfields Act authorised a Ma-
gistrate to act as arbitrator between the masters and
the journeymen, when any dispute arose between
• them. The effect of this was to make any agreement
that they might conclude binding on both parties.
Its utility might be seen from one single fact. In
1816; similar agreements were entered into between
.masters and men in Coventry, and the masters
of Spitalfields. In the former place, the
agreement wide, was not observed for a fortnight;
latter, it had, been acted on up to the present
Many advantages had followed the passing
.4W• It had produced loyalty, peace, and
order, where all before was disaffection, disor-
', riot. Thinking, as he did, that the work-
ought to be paid by those for whom they la-
and not out of the Poor's hates, •he would
Bill now proposed his support.
S. WORTLEY thought if the relief claimcd
silk weevers were granted, other trades would
equal ri,;,44 to call on Parliament to inter-
their behalf. He did not think the evil grew
the Poor's gates, but out of the want oicus-
who would buy at such prices as would ena-
It master to give those in his employ an ade-
remuneration for their Libour.
. PHILLIPS was surprised to hear the Hon.
fiber (Mr. Buxton) say the Petition in favour of

:pitaifields Bill which he had to present, was
aped by all the Master Weavers instown, as the
evidence given by Mr. S. Wilson- before-the Com-
- would have warranted him in coming to a
different conclusion. That Act- had been most
is in its effects; and as to the quietness which
, said to have produced, he viewedit but as the
:iwiss of death, for the manufacturers bad been
yelled to go elsewhere. He malt see no reason
labour should not be left to find its price, as
• any commodity in '..oglartd. It was not by
:mpt to remove tho evil from one class of per-
another, that relief could be afforded, but
measure that would go to bleak down the
system, and restore to the workman his for-
,7:trd for character and independence.
BUXTON, in explanation, said, -the Petition
to present was signed by all the mastersin
:ids, though nut by all who resided in other
the metropolis.
LITTLETON saw no necessity for bringing
general measure to correct a local grievance.
- CUB. WEN recommended it to his Hon. Friend
iravr the Bill, and bring in anothef, to regu-
half-pay systein, and other matters connected
wade.

. P. MOORS briefly replied, and consented to
withdraw the BiU, and throw' on Ministers the re-

ibility of relieving the existing distress.
motion sxu then withdrawn.
SINKING FUND.
..r.GB.ENFELL, in bringing forward the motion
urhich be had given notice, said, he had taken the
to address the House on the same subject in
Rs object then was the same that he had
View; ind he hoped to convince the House,
those lithe head of the Finances of the Nation,

only of the expediency, but of the necessity, in
, present state of the country, of applying what
iey were still pleased to call the Sinking Fund, in
dlipiantion of the Loan which the Chancellor of the
Eithiquer sound it mlcessary to raise for the service
present ytar. For doing so there was* distinct
authority in the clause, commonly called the
'lank; added by.the great man whrge name it
the Bill respecting the Sinking Fund, which
in the year 1786. Anxious not to be mistin-
' or misreproiented with respect to his nits-
touching the Sinking Fund, he begged to
that there was no man, in or out of the House,
valued more higHly. than he did the Sinking
such as it was originally intended to be. The
iples upon which it was founded by Mr. Pitt,
were soon afterwards affecspd by a material
in the state of the country—a transition from
to war. They were, indeed, principles of
no dentleman who now heard him, not one
of that llonnurable House, was a more warm
a; than himself; he (Mr. Grenfell) having alt.'
considered the Sinking Fund, as established by
between Ins and 1792, the most splendid
in that Statesman's fistancial character—
hear). —By the Act of 1786, the existing
of our Income beyond our Expenditure, to the
of £1,000,000, was applied and seeused (so
. transaction of this nature could be said or
tered to be secured) to the gradual extinction,
principle of compound interest, of a debt of
4000,000. But in 1792, it became necessary to
tome degree, the provisions of the Act of
inasmuch as the expenses incurred by one or
'years of war were sufficient to swallow up all
-ings accumulated in the six years before. Ac:.
;Iy, then, the Act of 1792 provided, that every
future Loan should be accompanied by such
increase of the Revenue arising irom• Taxation
3n a country like this was the only legitimitse
orthat increase) as should be equivalent, net,
pay the interest 'Of such Loans but to pro-
also a Fund of one per Cent. or in !hart a
ad which should•in time, extingilsish the oh
Debt •It w*s then caltied that the
of eirett4,o4-4atinctipn'iscadd in 'ix) in.
exceedAettinf .6,f'.4o7eatis: The Act of
iiistinge4eqf /ncome ; that of
provided (or tbe'extOit:t4tni ofieitery new Debt
incurred on every new Loin, by Making the Loan
cartwith it the means of its own annihilation. In
ese instances, the excess of:lncome beyond Ex.
penditurei was made the vital principle of the extinc-
"Debt. And it would be foundthat such ex-
Income %Tao the only principle (atter all the
1g and research which had been exhausted

;;:~

4 the subject) open which the Teductiou of Doh
.ther of a public OP private newer ever was, ever
could, or ever would be effected-(l6w, hear),..,..
These principles, 'then, adopted by Mr. Pitt on the
two Acts of 1786 and 1792, in creating the Sink-
ing Fund, were pursued and acted upon from 1786
to 1817, a period of twenty-seven years. Such was
the Sinking )Ind. What was it now? In the
year 1814 c the plan of the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite—a plan immediately adopted
by Parliament. lid one to which he (Mr. Grenfell)
save his most zealous and unqualified support—
Man; hear) ;—and the opinion he then expressed
of its merits was one which nothing since had in the
slighteit degree shaken or altered. In the state of
exhaustion to which the country then found herself,
after twenty years •of war and difficulties, the dis-
tressing nature of which was only to be rivalled by
the firmness, endurance, and unshrinking fortitude
with which they were borne, he did not then think,
nor was he now of opinion, that in such a state of
things, it would have been wise or .expedient to add
to the weight which the nation. was already sinking
under, loy additional taxation. He thought it better
to give the country a little breathing lime, before her
burdens were increased. Whether this view of the
subject was a right or wrong one, he would not now
inquire. One thing was very clear—that, united to
former embarrassments; there had been of late years
great profusion in our Public Expenditure. The
effects of those two causes combined, had been al-
most to sap the principles upon which Mr, Pitt had
legislated, and to leave no Sinking Fund at all. In
the last year the excess of our Expenditure beyond
our Income was somewhere about £13,500,000,
taking and considering a sum of about £15,000,000
as part of our. Expenditure under the 'head of the
Sinking Fund. So that with a nominal Fund, for
that was the fact, of 15,000;000, we had last year,
in reality, a Sinking Fund of not more than one mil-
lit.n six hundred thousand pounds, (he would not
pledge himself to the correctness of fractions, and
therefore he used round numbers). Certainly he
was not at any time one of those who were inclined,
to take a gloomy view of the state of the country;
but nothing was more dangerous, in contemplating
a subject of this • nature, than self 'deception. It
would undoubtedly give him great satisfactinn if he
.could flatter himself that the Revenue of the present
year would equal that of the last. It was also to be
remembered, that provisiiia was, to be made this
year for thirLoan which the Right HOnourable Gen-
tleman.(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was con-
templating—(Hear, hear).—ln'taking that into view,
was it not probable that the whole of the Sinking
Fund would be required for the charges likely to
accrue from it ? And if so, there would not be 'one
single shilling reserved for the reduction of the Na-
tional Debt. True it was, that £100,000,000 Stock

F

stood in the names of the Commissioners far the re-
demption of that Debt, which the Right Mo. Gentle-
man, who never failed to advert to the circumstance,
called a treasure; and well he might, for it was such a
treasure as uo natioa ever possessed before! (a laugh).
Though those Commissioners were sent four times a
week into the-city to purchase stock; let it be remem-
bered they bought with borrowed money—the money
borrowed from the loan-contractors. For their mo-
ney they got-stock ; with their new stock they bought
old stock—(a laugh). This was creating a new debt
for-no other purpose than to destroy an old ore ;
selling new stock cheap, in order to buy old stock
dear—(a laugh) ; buying at.a very high rate of in-
terest to pay off a debt contractedit a very jow one.
Yet this was what his Majesty's Ministers were doing.
It was mere delusion ; an attentpt utpotie thew
system on the country for a new Sinking' Finn', whin
it was the very reverse of one. This was the course
of operations prosecuted by means, of a fund which
was represented to the country as applicable to the
extinction of £800,000,000 of debt. The whole ma-
chinery, so wisely constructed in the year 1786, was
now erect and in full play without any useful effect.
lie might indeed ny, that it wai worse than pseless,
and produCtiye of no profit except to a class of indi-
viJua:s who contributed nothing to the service of the
State. It was true, that Loan Contractors and Spe-
culators in the Public Funds might be, and were, in
numerous instances, very respectable and conscien-
tious men, but they were not persons to whose care
the interests of the country should be entrusted. The
.9iiestion, therefore,. now wa;, whether the House
would sanction the continuance of a system of intri-
cacy and delusion that could produce no beneficial
consequences ; or whether it would, by the vote of
this night, put an end to it? He was prepared to,
contend that it would have been highly adyantageous
if the Sinking Fund had been applied.to in aid of all
the Loans contracted since the year 1795, under the
power given by Mr. Fox's clause in the Act of 1786.
According to a calculation which he had made, the
saving which would have been thus
,effected; from
the period he had melvioned up to the year 1813,
did not amount to less than D 20,000,000. He held
in his hand a paper shewing the amount of saving to!
the Public that might have been derived upon the'
Loan of 1815, if the Commissioners for the Redemp-
tion of the National Debt had been allowed to invest',
the-Sinking Fund in the New Stock created by that
Loan. The capital sum. which might have been so
saved was upwards of £2,000,000, and the annual
interest 1:77,000. An Honourable Friend of his had
moved for some other Returns, which were not yet'
presented, respecting the Loyal of. 1818 and 181+;
but from his recollection of thr•premitint which they
bore, he was satisfied that a similar profit to the ex-
tent of several millions would have accrued to the
Public, had the Sinking Fund been resorted to in
those cases. The only.ground on which his principle
was opposed was, that the effect of the system acted
upon since 1797, was to keep sup the price of the
Funds. He did not deny that in time of war, and
so long as we were a borrowing country, the high
price Of the Fonds was a great advantage, as we
ob-
tained Loans on easier terms ; but that advantage
btcame very doubtful when we entered, as he hoped
we one day.should, on the.work of redemption. The
facility of tedeinption musts be increased in propor-
tion to the lowness of- their price. litot whatever
Might be said' on this subject, he denied altogether
the foundation of the argument, and contended that
the system had no such effect as that of raising the
price. At the end of this rear we should probahlY
have a Sinking Fund of i.;15,000,000 ; which, in-
vested in Stock at 70, would pnount to about
£24000,000. It wm14,5 opinion, strengthened and

cottoned by it lie likilaterti qt i **lmps!
the Sinking Fund was thus ingest est or applied
the service of the year, the Kite qi Stock ,would,Fll4JJ
the same. Its priie• did depend On app. ft
.
-- • it •

main , not
those mysterious causesvto whicii was often attri-
buted, but permanently, like the prices in all mar-
lofts, on the proportion which the demand bore to
the supply. He was aware that many respectable
persons differed from him in this opinion, and that
'some of them were not under any bias from self-
interest. Others, however, who were considered as
great authority on this question, were under that
bias; or; if they were not, they were not composed
of the same materials as other men. Now, Loan
Contractors were not, in his judgment, exactly that
description of persons by whose advice in these mat-
ters a Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to he go-
verned. In 1814 the Right lion. Gentleman had
stated in his place, that, having conferred with a
number of Gentlemen contracting for the Loan with
regard to.tbe propriety of acting on his (Mr. Gren.
fell's) suggestion, they all, with one exception only,
signified their disapprobation of it, and recommend-
ed a Lean of £24,000,000, instead of £12,000,000.
The exception to which he alluded was that of his
Honourable Friend (Mr. Ricardo), who, as he thought,
greatly to his credit, observed to the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, that if he considered his own interest
merely, he must agree with his Brother Contractors ;
but jibe were to consult the advantage of the coun-
try, be should Alikise the application of the Sinking
Fund, and a Loidt.kOf 1C12,000,000 only—(hear, hear).
Perhaps, at.a tine .when large Loans were regularly
,raised, such a proceeding might have been inexpe-
dient ; but now 'that they were comparatively small,
and ellen frequent occurrence, he could not believe
that the Right Hon. Gentleman was so infatuated as to
adhere to the present useless and unprofitable system.
,Reserving, however, all further observations on this
subject till he should have heard what were the Right
Honourable Gentleman's views, and the opinions of
other Honourable Members who might take a part
.in the discussion, be should conclude by moving that
the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the
whole House, to consider of the said Act.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the Honourable Gentleman had not in any de-
gree removed the objection to his motion by the way
in which he had framed it. Before he had reduced
his proposal to its present shape, he had objected to
it, as tendin-, to fetter the discretion of Government,
and impose on the Treasury shackles as to the course
to be pursued on a subject, as to which it was parti-
cularly requisite they should be entrusted with that
discretion which the Act of Parliament now reposed
in them, If the Honourable Gentleman had framed
his motion according to 4is original notice, then
every one would have known distinctly what he vo-,
ted for. Bet now the motion became still more ob-I
jeclionahle ; for being supported by the veil. tame
arguments as the original proposition, it had thefur-
ther disadvantage of being so vague, that no man]
ho supported it could well know the tendency of his
vote. I'he Honourable Gentleman knew that, by
Mr. Fox's clause to' he Act of 1792, a discretion was
very wisely vested in the Commissioners for the Re-
duction of the National Debt, authorizing them to
apply any past of the Sinking,Fund.towards a loan:,
When this power was thus vested, surely nothing]
could be more unwise than by a compulsory resoltt.l
tion of the House to bind down the discretion of
the Commissioners. Several cases had been men-

tioned by .the Honourable Gentleman, in which the
application of his plan would have produced great
bekefits to the public. Thus he had said, that in
181'4e if the Commissioners had become subscribers
to the Loan, two millions might have been saved to
the country. But the Honourable Gentleman, when
he said this, forgot the extraoruinary circumstances
under which the loan had been contracted for. True
it was that the Commissioners might, if they had

subscribed, have become participators in the Profits.
But then the cause of that profit must be considered.
It arose from the event of the war which was decided
by the one great victory of Waterloo. Who could
have foreseen that such would have Ire!) the event ?
At the time when the loan was contracted for, this,
upon which the prosts to arise from it so totally de-
pended, was a mere matter of chance. Therefore, if
'in that case the Commissioners had become sub-
scribers, they incurred a chance of loss as well as of
gain. At present he was not argiling whether the
Commissioners had decided.correctly or not in this.
respect. The Hon. Gentleman however said, that a
considerable sum might have been saved, if, since
Oat commencement of the war, they had constantly
acted in the way which he now recommended. The
benefits which would have arisen from so acting
were calculated by the Honourable Gentleman at
twenty millions. This, however, was not more than
two pr. cent. on the whole amount. Then the risk
which was incurred must be taken into account,
And during all that time the contractors for the loans
would have objected to the Commissioners coming
in with them, and would have-demanded much
higher terms on that account. On the other* hand,
the advantages of the system which had been pur-
sued were to be considered. Persons-concerned in
money transactions knew that by the present mode,-
a steadiness in the price of the funds was produced.
wblth more than compensated for . any advantage
that might ber.obtained by incurring the risks of' the
der plan. Whether those who formed this opinion
:Of. the effect produced by a steadiness of.price;
Judged from their own personal interests, he coula
not knew;
.but at least their opinion-was supported
by Nary plausible reasons. They said that ilthe
Commissioners were out of the market, the real
ituyers would take advantage of the necessity under
-which they were of sellingiand Avoid thus compel
them to accept a low price. Therefore in. this tvay
the steadiness of price compensated for any advan-
...tage which might Ise obtained from such transactions
.on the part of .the e Commissioners.
.Ilut when the
Honourable Gentleman openly professed that the
object of his motion was to call upon Ike House to
decide whether the present operation'of.the,§inking
.Fond should continue or should be wholly, put an
end to, he was sure the HG;tls. would Raise loug, be-
Lpre they, *could agree to a propositien for *acing an
,end of it,. When the. present circumstances of the
.'country were 'considered, it reality, appeared to him
that. the Honourable Gentleman .could not. have
'ioboaeu a more unfortunate time for coming_ forward
with well a proposal. Muclof tlmilon.Gentleman's
reasoning ho ccraid not now eats into ; bccauic it

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