Star.
London, England, 1828-06-21 00:00:00

NEW SOUTH'WALES BILL.

Mr. HUSKISSON moved that the House resolve itself into a
Committee upon this Bill. • •
Sir J. MACINTOSH then rose, and after alluding
to the various changes that had taken place in the Co.
I•snial Office, to which might be attributed a great por-
tion of the delay which the measures proposed by the
Right Hon. Getiteman had met with, he said that at
this late hour of the night, and in the exhausted state
in which he found himself, he should take case not to
waste any part of that time and 'attention which the
kindness of the 11- u,e usually bestowed upon him, by
unnecessary delay, or more unnecessary apolo-
gies. Without lather comment, therefore, he should
proceed at once. The objects embraced in the mo-
tion r f s& hich he had given notice were embodied
in the folios. log resolutions, which he should now
take the liberty to read, as the foundation for those
arguments with which he should afterwards trou-
ble the House. The first resolution which he should
propose was, " That 'it *tie an instruction to the
Commi tee to receive a clause for the immediate
establishment of Trial by Jury in New South
Wales and Van Diemen's Land (excel Ling the penal
settlement for offenders there convicted), and for
directing the Governor and Council of each Colony re-
spectively, to tiame regulations for that purpose, re-
specting the number and qualifications of jurors either
in the whole Colony, or in any districts which may seem
to them to require modification:--The second resolu-
tion which he had the honour to propose, was to this
effect-6, That it be an instructon to the Committee to
receive a clause t ) provide for the election of one-third
of the legislative councils of both the said Colonies (till
assemblies shall be called by his Majesty), to be chosen
for five years, by all persons enjoying a clear yearly in-
come of 1001. who shall have been tree inhabitants for
three year., and to direct the Governor and present
Council to make such regulations. as they think fit, re-
specting the time, place, and other circumst truces of
the election of such members." Having stated the ob-
jects which he had in View, and which were contained
in these resolutions, he might almost content himself
without intruding upon the patience of the House ;
but feeling, as he did, a warm interest in the fate ot
those Colonies, be hoped he might be excused if he
trespassed a little upon their time. It appeared by a
late census, that in New South Wales there were 45,000
free Englishmen, all of whom would be eligible to act
as jurors. He saw no reason why those Colonies should
differ from other Colonies, and why the:blessings of the
British Constitution should be Withheld from them,
while other parts of his Majesty's foreign possessions
enjoyed those blessings. Their condition as penal Co-
lonies was no reason why they should not possess the
right of electing representatives, and the blessing of a
trial by jury. Tne only way to wipe out the foul stain
cast upon these Colonies would be, to show their inha-
bitants that they were placed upon the same footing
and enjoyed the same privileges as other parts of his
Majesty's possessions. Mini Persons had bee's deterred
from settling in New South Wales from no other cause
than that it was brande4 147.04. Legislature as a recep-
tacle for crime. Tbe'OnlyNeai to introduce a reforma-
tory system, if he might ate. the term, and to make
those Colonies one grand Penitentiary, would 'be to
afford to the inhabitants the means of relieving them.
selves from the stigma which
.had been cast upon them.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proceeded at some
length to point out the advantages which would arise
by the introduction ince .New South Wales of the two
.measures-to which he had referred—namely, the right
to elect Representatives and the Trial by Jury. The
Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Huskisson)
had narrowed the ground' upon which he (Sir James
Macintosh) was now presuming to legislate ; and the
only question between them appeared to be, whether
the proposed measures should be adopted now or here-
after? He (Sir. James Macintosh) wished to_begin the
work of reformation by granting some of those pri-
vileges at. once, which in time must all be conceded.
The free settlers were all native Englishmen, who
' had most of them been jurors in their native coun-
try. He was not introducing new measures amongst
a. new people—(Hear, hear). The great body of
the settlers were already acquainted with the duties
which, as jurors and electors, they would have to fulfil,
and consequently the present time was that which should
be seized upon to afford them those advantages which
they were entitled to receive. Bat if those measures
were delayed to an indefinite hereafter, the present po-
pulation would grow less and lees, and a new race
Mould spring up. who would neither understand nor-be
capable of appreciating the blessings ot the British free-
men—(Hear, hear).—Was'it.irifie to say, wet until this
people shall number halt a million, and then, ignorant
as they would be of the benefit, to be derived from
the privilege of electing members to watch over their
interests, and equally ignorant of the blessing of the
Trial by Jury thrown suddenly amongst them, those
institutions of which they had I rev iously known no-
thing, and the benefits of which toeyoviuld be wholly
incapable of appreciating ? Was it consistent with policy
to withhold those institutions from the Colonists of
New South Wales, and wait moil tory became too
strong for subjection, hen they might possibly demand
that as a right which they would now look upon as a
boon ?—(Hear, hear). 11 tiose institutions were de-
layed, a blind civil war, or the t loss of the Colo-
nies, must follow. The Honourable and Learned
Gentleman then alluded to the feuds which existed in
New South Wales bets& ten the o emancipationists,"
as they called themselves, and the non-emancipated.
Now nothing, he conceived, could have a greater ten-
dency to soften down asperities, and blend men toge-
ther, than when they were in the habit of acting to-
gether in different situations ot society. From the
result of his inquiries, he could not help wishing
that he bad not at first moved for the appointment of a
Select Committee to investigate the subject now un-
der discussion. Excepting Mr. Bigg, there was no
authority against the introduction of those institutions;
opposed to his evidence, there was the testimony of
Governor Hinton, and also that of the late Governor-
General Macquatrie, who was justly called the father
of the Colony, and who, in his report to Lord Bathurst,
in 1825, stated that there was a sufficient body of flee.
men in those colonies competent to perform the duties
not ouly of Jurors, but electors. It might be said that
Sir Thonias Brisbane, because he was devoted to the
p.it suits of science and y, WAS not a competent
witness upon such a question. It was true that Queen
El zabeth said that 4, Mr. Bacon," as she called him, was
too mach of a wit to make a good Iswyer ; but, however
cruet* observation might be, generally speaking.it was
4b9Ut. *s just in the instance of the great Bacon as

it would be.to ray thatSir.T. Bsisbini was aniticomPe'
tent witness upon a question tike the present, because
he had breught-home a larger share of knowledgeupon
other subjects thaq fell to the lot* most men. •Ctlief
Justice Wilde and Mr. Justice Ford had 41.'0 given it as
their opinion that the Triil by Jury woul4 work well in
New Sobth Wales.and they laughed with scorn at the idea
that this colony was not as ripe as any other to pat take of
the benefits of.a free constitution. Now, wit'i respect to a
representation. there was no doubt but that if the inhabi-
tants of New South Wales were represented in assembly,
they would more cheerfully contribute towards taxation.
Above all things, let the benefits intended sooner or
later, come is the shape of free gifts; else, by pro-
tracting them, .a great part of the grace and favour
which belonged to concession would be taken away. In
an able anonymous essay upon Milton, the supposition
that a nation could not be ripe for liberty was very in-
geniously opposed. The author said that it reminded
him of the story of the lamb, which sagaciously resolved
never to go into the water until it had learned to swim.
He, however, although struck with the whimsical in-
genuity of the illustration, still Maintained a different
opinion. Desiring to teach hii son the useful exercise of
swimming, he would put him at first into shallow water,
and give him an opportunity of acquiring the art bs
degrees. In the same manner would he impart coils
stitutional privileges to the colony. It would be judi-
cious policy to initiate them into the sy,t -m of perfect
civil liheity as early as possible, in order to prevent
hereafter -such a shock t.) their feelings and habitual
opinions as its sudden intioduction must necessarily
produce.—On the first Resolution being put,
Mr. HUSKISSON said, he had Oct introduced the
measure wet rout fully investigating the circumstances,
and consid red the peculiar necessities under which that
Colony was placed. His Right Han. Friend had done
him no more than justice in saying that he was anxious
to introduce all the institutions of the int ther country,
and gradually prepare the inhabitants of New South
Wales for the enjoymer.t df all those privileges to'vAich
as British subjects they were entitled. His Right Hon.
iend was not, however, quite correct in the view he
had taken of the case; for those who had departed from
this country for any of the British Colonies carried with
them all the privileges and birthrights of Englishmen,
and it was unnecessary .for him to say that it was not
a part of the duty of Government to grant that as a
boon to which they were undoubtedly entitled. In 'his
provision he contemplated, wished, and desired to see the
population of New South Wales possessed• of the two
great privileges—Trial by Jury, and a representative
legislafbre ; but the question was, whether those privis
leges• should be introduced immediately in all their
beatings, in. allaheir vigour, such- as they were in this.
country ? If such was the case, they might find
.it ne-
cessary to call upon the Government in some instances
to suspend them, and it was surely better for some time
to withhold them. In the Bill which he had intro-
duced, it was intended to extend the privilege to the
Government of the country of granting Trial by Jury
in all civil cases. His Right Hon. Friend 'would find,
if he examined, that the foundation would be laid of
granting the inhabitants of that Colony a share in ma-
naging their own concerns. His Right Honourable
Friend had concluded his speech by explaining how
he would act by a boy of fourteen years of age
in introducing him into life—that he would rio longer
keep him in a monastery, but let him see a liitle,,o(
the world. But surely he must acknowledge thit there
was some difference between an innocent boy of fourteen
years of age, who had spent his time in a siaisastery,
and two thirds of the inhabitants of New South. Wales,,
who had been sent for fourteen years to
.Botauß,Diry,for
' crimes committed against the lavis cf their country.
He asked, would any one consider it a great'advantige
to have a Jury formed 0! the emancipists,.as his Right
Honourable Friend had properly called the freed men
of New South Wales? 4it present thee existed no
complaint again the administration of justice there, and
he (Mr. H.) wonld•say, that he would rather be tried
by a Jury composed of seven men of such a character
as those Gentlemen who administered justice, than by
twelve emancipists. Whilst the colony . remained
what it at present was, it was impossible that fair and
impartial justice could be administered in any other say
than the present. He did not say that the time was',
not approaching when Trial by Jury might not be in.
troduced in its fullest extent ; nor was it his wish or in-
tention that all the institutions of this country should
not be introduced into every British Colony, which was
founded by settlement, and not by conquest. They
ought to take care, however, r f unsettling the habits of
property which were now maintained. At present the
Legislature proposed, by way of a first step, to appoint
a Legislative Committee, for the purpose of watching
and controuling every measure of the State. All trials
should be public, under the inspection of a free Press,
and a population jealous if their rights. They should
now he prepared in the coarse of a few years for the
regular introduction of a Legislative Assembly ; nor
had he any fears when such a change should take
plice,• that it would lead t.s any political convulsion.
He was unwilling to grant teethe Government the ungra-
Cious power of suspending the privileges of the British
Constitution when fully introduced. He would prefer
allowing them the privilege of extending the benefit of
it. On those grounds he was anxious that the House
should adopt the three clauses which he proposed in-
troducing inter the Bill in Committee—one limiting the
°per stions of it to a period of seven years; another
giv.itig, power to the Governor, under the authority of the
lfcretary of State, toexteml the rights to which he had
alluded; and a third, that in every law which svisk.en-
..cteci by a free .Government, it should be deciated how
much of it was the law of England, and how mild;
the law pf. gig country.
Mr. D. GILBERT approved of the Bill, and of at
the steps which had been taken by his Majesty's Govern-
ment, with regard to Nevi; South Wales.
Mr. HUNIE had every reason to believe, that if, in-
stead of inflicting a military Government, they would
introduce a portion of representstion and the privileges
of British subjects into New South Wales, it would-be
the most flourishing of the Colonie . In reference to
the delay in introducing Trial by Jury, the Hon. Membei
adduced the case of Louisiana and Florida.
Mr. WARBURTON objected to that part of the Bill
which gave tile suitor the tight r f applyiog to the Privy
Council.

Mr. S, WOItTLEY thought the Bill well calculated
to effect the object fir which it was intended. New
South Wales was differently situated horn other Colo-
nies. 'the continual introduction-of a•certain -class of
persons precluded the possibility of establishing in it
those legislative improvements, of which other Colonies
weir susceptible. •
Sir M. W. RIDLEY approved of the principle of the
measure, although he thought that. some amendments
might be made in it. These however did not extend so
far as was proposed by his. Right lion. Friend (Sir J.
Macintosh)--for he was of opinion, that it would be
impossible to carry on the Government of the Colony,
or to administer justice in ir, it either a resident Legisla,
tore, or Trial by Jury, were established there. Ile

Watt' notitffefer th.paticular iAdividtiariq the re.
mark he was about to•nikke; but'he felt it hii diity to
state, that ire his opinion's great impr-vemeni trtiold
result hous.the publication in 'he London .G.tense .of
the nettles of persons apointed told' high .4.ltotions.in
that Colony, convinced as be was, that many of these
now hhlding offices in that and other ealtillte%
not have been selected, had a strict serittittY WO) tlikis
characters and pretensions been previously instidstled.
. Mr. HORACE TWISS said, the knowb dge of one
fact might obviate the necessity for one at least of the
Right Honourable Gentleman's propositions—namely.,
that the Goverunr',l thi Wisely had the pokei, of etr-*
tending to the colonists the right of Trial by Jury, if
he should deem it expeciert.

Sir JAMES NIACINTOSH. here intimated, that be
should not press his AmendmentA. They were accord-
..
ingly put andnegatived.
The House then resolved Itself into the Committee, when several
verbal Amendments were proposld and agreedlo.
The Bill thinkwent through the Committee, and the Report,
in
with the Amendentkwas ordered to be brought up on N'onday.
The other Orders of &frisky were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at HALF-easy Two O'CLoce.

-...e5..- • . . •
MAJORITY
Of Fifty in favour of the Second Reading of the Usury 'Lavers'
- • • Amendment Bill.
A!cock, Thomas Herries, Rt. Hon.J.C. Planta, Joseph ••
Baring, Francis' Hume, Jriseph PrOtheroe. Ed ward
Harley, Harrison Irving, John Rae, Sir Will :am
Blake, Sir Francis- Jeplasts,C. D. ' Robinson, G. It.
Calvert, John .Itrinyti, Earl Smith, Wm.
Lapel. John • Kennedy, Francis Stuart Worrey,Hon.J:
Cuurreisay, T. P. King, lion. R. (Cork) Talmash, Hon. F.
rharidos, Marquis of Lumley, Saville Trant,— • •
Davie., Colonel hill...hall, John Villiers. T. H.
Doherty, John Macleod, Warburton, Henry
t )rummond,.Horno Airlock, J. 131 Whitmore, W. W.
lEa.thope, John North, John KT Wilson, Sir Robert
Ebringron. Viscount Nugent, Lord Wood, Alderman
Forietcue, Hon.G. M. Owen, Sir Edward Wood, John •
Fyler, T. B. Pallnetston, Lord' . •
Gnulburn,Rt.lJon.H. Philips, Sir 13.. auras.
Gilbert, Davies Philips, G. R. . Martin, John •
Gye, Frederick Pigot, G. E. G. F. Thomson, Charlet?:
MINORITY
Of Thirty-eight, on the Question that the Sum of 2171 12s. tlie
pay fbr the year to the aril Governor of Dartmouth Castle, be
deducted from the vote for Garrisons.
Banker', H. • Fazakerley, J. N. Palmer, C. F.
Baring, A. Gordon, Hobert Price. R. - • •
Bernal, R. Heathcote, G. J. Ridley. WM. W. • •
Blake, Sir F. Hobhouse, J. C. Stewart, John . .
Burrell, Sir C. ' Howard; Henry Tavistock, Martini; •
. ..
Burdett, Sir F. Blume, Joseph - Thomson, C. P. • •
Carter, J. . Labouehere. Henry Warburton, Henry
Clive, K B.
.. Lambert, J. S. Western, C. C. , •
Colborne, R. Lester, B. 1.. Whitmore, W. W.
Crompton, S. • Leyeester, Ralph Wilbraham, George
Davenport, E. D. Loch, James Wood, John .
Duncanoon, Lord Moberly, John Wrottesley, Sir J.
Ducane, P. • M` Donald, Sir Jame. . . •• • '
'NISI R-Sir James Graham. . • 1
LIST OF.THE MINORITY
Of Twenty-veViti' wbb voted for Lord Nonvern's motion to re- ,
duce the Grant from 21,500 to 21,000, for the Cork Literary
Institution. . s
Blake, Sir Francis Hume, Joseph . Monet, J. B.
.• ••••.*/
Bernal, R. . Harvey, D. W. , Oeborn,.l.orrl F,.,.
_,_.
.Bentinek, Lord G. llobbouse, J. C. Powlett, Hon. W.1.k.,
Cave, Otway ' . Kennedy, T. • Pendarvh, R We.Y' '
Dickinson, W. Xing, Rob. (Cork) Palmer, C. F. ' ' 4'..% '
"Ellison, C. • Lester, R. - Rice, T. S. •
•
Graham, Sir limes Langston, J. Ti. Stewart, Sir M. ,t..• 1•
Gueit, J. J. . Lloyd, T. - • Warburton, IL .....
' Gordon, Robert Micinfosle, Sir J. ' ' NYrottesley, Fir .1; ••`
' •
. ,
. . ~ • Taz.azz— Lord Morpetb. . • - --** re.'?

EVEN MO STAR.'"