Star.
London, England, 1817-03-08 00:00:00

this subject from Horsham, in Sussex,.
it acquainted with that Borough, but he
that it had been adopted at a most orderly
ihich had b en .ssembled by individuals, in
ice of the Ba:liff iettisingto call a meeting.,
itson was eroo.4ht up anJ read. lt com-
Sinecures and unmerited Pensions, of the
hails arising from a fictitious paper currency, of the
=mese standing army in time of peace, and of the
itate of the Representation of the Commons; and
prayed the House not to pass new Acts, infringing
the liberties ..t the subject, as the existing laws were,
in their (-pinion, sufficient to preserve the peace.
Sir I'. SHELLEY bore testimony to the orderly
character of. the meeting, but he was authorized to
ssy that the Bailiff had not refused the use of the
Town Hall on the occasion.
Mi. HURST said it was true, that the persons
who convened (fie meeting bad applied for the Town
Hall. The Bailiff then requested that the Requisi-
tion should be shown him in writing, and a Requisi-
tion was accordingly thew[) him, couched in general
teems, whereupon he consented to grant the use of
t' e Hall. This having been done the framers of the
requisition published it, with an addition to this ef-
;Kt—. We invite all•Labourers, Mechanics, and
Apprentices to attend the Meeting, 'as they are
equally interevet: in its objects, while they pay taxes
on coat.. candles, Stc." On looking at the petition
ee fount etat there were from ten to twenty signa-
tu:, ia the same hand-writing—(lleer, hear.) Whe-
iser that was an übjectiga to receiving the petition be
nit pretend to deetare., Asia the good order
of the Meaing. which livid been praised, it was not
very remarkable. A blue flag had been brought out
et 3 piol:c house—(!dear') and when a Gentleman
present attempted to address the Meeting, his voice
was drowned in the clamour which often prevailed at
such meetings. He was authorised by the Magis-
trates and Clergy, and the most respect.te inhabi-
tants cf Horsham, to disavow their connection with
the petition, or the sentiments ie contained.
The SPEAKER said, as to the point of order on
which he was appealed to, all Petitions presented to
the House must fie signed by the bands or marks of
the Petitioners themselves ; and if they were not, it
was contrary to the rules of the House to receive them.
Sir fRANCIS BURDETT said, the fancy of any
Honourable Member as to the' hand‘wiiting of signa-
tures, could not, he conceived, be a sufficient ground
for tl:e rejection of a Petition. As to the disorderly
conduct or the Meeting, what had it amounted to?
A blue fi ig had been displayed which the Honoura-
ble Menber stated to have created much noise.
Without s imething more solid to support his allega-
tion, the Honourable Member (Mr. Hurst) should
not have brought it forward.
Lord FOLKSTONE said, there were many re-
spectable signatures to the Petition, though he had
not thougi.t it his duty to examine the whole of them.
There were certainly many different hands, and if a
halt dozen names were written by one person, it
would not certainly vitiate the whole. What had been
said by the Honourable Member (Mr. Hurst) ren-
dered the Petition worthy of some consideration. 'He
had said, (bat all the*Magistrates of that district were
hostile to the Petition; if the Bill before the House
had passed, no such Meeting could have been held,
and consequently no* such Petition could have come
up to the House.
ha C. BURRELL read an extract of a letter, by
wbico he wee inlorined that many names were Misted
in e same hand writing. He thought it sachet. sin-
gu ,;,e people of Horsham should complain of the
stat Repreeentation. because a Burgess of
Huts ,its, being a Freeholder, had a right to vote
for no lest than six Members of Perlisment—(e
laugh)—two for Horsham, two for the Rape of Breat-
her, and two ler the County of Sussex.
Mr. CURWEN thought it would be bard on the
Petitioners to reject the Petition because more than,
one name was in the same hand, while there were so
many genuine signatures.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought it would be more advisable, as there were
certainly many real signatures, to suffer the 'Petition
to lie on the table. The Noble Lord (Lord Fake
stone) had mimed to a Bill before the House to pre-
vent Seditious Meetings; but he was mistaken in the
objact of the Bill. It would at any time be compe-
tent for seven householders to call a Meeting t and
cvnsequently such a Meeting as that it which the
Petition was adopted might bale been held, even if
that Bid had passed into a Law.
Sir J GRAHAM said, that in many of the
Petitions for Reform which had been presented to
the House, there bad been a great many signatures
in the same hand. As to the petition from the city
he was connected with (Carlisle) out of 6 or 7000
signatures, he was informed; that there were not more
titan sor 600 genuine ones. He believed that very
few, it any,- householders had signed it.
Mr. CURWEN said be differed from his Hon-
',league (Sir J. Graham) as to the petition from
Aliee. Though that petition was not entrusted to
stn, he was loaned that there were a great number
- %cry respectable names ; he imagined his Hon.
1r :league must have been very much mistaken as to
signatures. The Meeting had been extremely
ce-,rly, the promoters of it endeavoured, to the ut-
..:st of their power, to get it called by authority e-o
am..l Lot having succeeded, they did every thing to
it the appearance of a regular Meeting.
SI J. GRA Htt.M said, that though the names of
,
most respectable persons in and about Carlisle
V't'7e axed to that petition, he was assured it was
sittlti.ut their consent.
Lard CAS TLEREAGH observed, that the gross
.tie of the right of petitioning had gone a great
ray to lower the authority of this valuable privilege
et the sebjects On the other hand, he should be I
iIPf7Y 4"r7 if cm account of a. fraud practised by a
t they were to reject a petition which was really
_'"IO es' by "early persons. • This. however. ought to
liicuic„..,d on tee people, that there was nothing
teed to their 'own right as an abuse of it.
:Jr. WYNN thought it highly proper to put an.
tilt' to a practice which involved a violation of the
_P_-.Tileges of the House, and might bring the right
rettitiotiing itself into dispute. If the Henwribit
L'''iner (Sir J. Graham) was certain of the facts of
he spoke, it was his ditty to follow up the
4""on Phil% he had made ; and if it could be
nr' -d against any individual that be bad written the
'"of another -Without bit consent, he should be
tie,,e;;,t up to receive mioldign pajamas*. •

Mr. BROUGHAM said, that an agreed in the
candid decision of the Noble Lord ( Lord Castlereagh)
—(Cries of No! from Serjeant Besr and a few
others). Well, they should tee h,w many there were
who would differ from the Noble L"rd—(a laugh).
That declaration of the Noble Lord, as to the Petition
before them, was very candid ; hut as to his argu-
ment to throw discredit on all Petitions, from more
than one name being in the same band, he would
put it to the good sease of the House, whether a
Petition of 20 or 30,000 names was tokbe set down
as of no weight, because one person (an enemy;•he '
had a right to assume, to the cause of the Petition)
had put a few names to it without authority ? He
did not approve altogether of the system which had
been pursued with respect to Petitions ; be thought it
would have been much wiser to let the people draw up
their complaints in their own language ; but he could
not go the length of saying, that because they were
couched in these terms they were of no avail.—
As to many of the instances in which the signatures
were in the same hand, he had no doubt that they per.
fectly expressed the wishes of those whose names were
written. The signatures were frequently the names
of persons who, though present, and consenting, ei-
ther could not write, or, from being unhabituated to
write, were not disposed to tale the trouble. He
spoke from having witnessed such scenes. While
Petitions were signing, he had seen persons apply to
a man who was writing, and was more expert than
themselves, to sign for them. In very few cases in-
deed would it be loon.' that the names were written'
without the consent of those who bore them. As to
the printed forms which were made use of, though he
did not approve of them, they were not on that ac-
count to be supposed not to speak the sense of the
people. He would put a cast:—Let the Noble Lord
(Lord Castlereagh) draw up a Petition in favour of
the Gagging Bill or the Suspension of the Habeas
Corpus, or in support of all his measures, and send
it round the country, if he could obtain one-tenth as
many signatures as had been put to the Petitions for
Reform, he would then agree that by such means the
sense of the people could not be estimated.
Alter a few words from Mr. Sri Aare and Mr. Ser-
.
Irani has; the Petition was ordered to lie on the table.

. • IMPRISONMENT.
Mr. BENNETT rose to move for a return of per-
sons confined in the House of Correction under the
89th and 40th of the King: He stated to the House
that two persons of the name of Evans (father and
son) had been committed to confinement. The father
he had heard and believed was an intelligent man,
and except the crime now alleged against him, he
never beard any improper conduct imputed to him,
and yet he (Mr. Bennett) was informed he was
thrown into the same cell with a common thief who
had turned King's evidence. That the son was se.
parated from the father, and was confined in the foul
ward also with common thieves. When persons of
their description were confined it !night to be in a
proper place. It should be remembered that these
people were perfectly innocent in the eye of the law;
and that they should be treated as such, they should
be confined in places suited to their station in life, and
should be furnished with proper accommodation.
However wild their fanaticism might be, they still
must, in the eye of the law, be pronotwed innocent,
until they were proved to be guilty; andwas it pro-
per, he asked, that such persons should be confined in
the same apartment with common thieves ?
Loid CASTLEREAGH said, that the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Bennett) bad endeavoured to excite
the feelings of the' House upon grounds which depen-
dedniore upon what he had-heard from others, than
from what bad come within his own knowledge.—
He regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had brought
this matter, 'before the House so suddenly. It came
upon them quite by surprise, and he could not help
observing, that this practice of moving for papers,
without giving notice, was calculated to produce the
greatest inconvenience. He,- therefore, wished that
the Hon. Gentleman would, for the present, withdraw
his motion, and give notice.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that the public
was very much indebted to the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Bennett) for bringing this matter under the
consideration of the House; however, he would take
the liberty of suggesting that it might be as well to
withdraw the motion for the present, to give notice,
and then to adult to the matter. But even without
any notice, he was of opinion that Ministers ought to
be prepared to give every liatisfaction relative to the
prisons. Parliament had placed the greatest confi-
dence in them by the suspension of the Habeas Cor-
pus, and it would be a great abuse of that confidence,
if they were not always ready to afford satisfactory
information in every matter relating to imprisonment.
Mr. BATHURST denied there existed any ground
of complaint, and for the best reason. These persons
had been examined, and the question asked them was,
Had they any hardship to complain of ? Their an-
swer was, nothing in the manner of their confinement,
however they were dissatisfied with the circumstance
of their confinement itself. After their. second exa-
mination, the same question had been repeated, and
answered in the _same way., Both had been removed
to the same prison. to facilitate the interviews of Mrs.
Evans with her husband and son. Books had been,
required by one, and granted him. Nor was there
any truth in• the statement, that the person in the
same cell with Evans the elder was a thief.
Mr. BENNET tonderstOod him to be a thief who
had impeached his companions in crime, and was,
therefore, not let down iotb the common part of the
jail, through the apprehensions entertained lest he
should be punished for the evidence be had thus
given, by the rest of the prisoners. He had no ob-
jecticn to withdraw-the Motion, and give notice of
his intention to move it on Monday. He then moved,
'as connected with the motion to be discussed. upon
Monday, 'foe a Return of tote effective strength of the
Commissioned Officers, NUn-commissioned Officers

aid Yrivates of the Army of the country, together
with the number of herpes, on the Ist January, 18t7.
Lord PALMERSTON thought it might perhaps
be made up, if con6nedto Great Britain.—Ordered.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presamted a Peddes horn die In.
habitants of &Mini raj* for Patilassentaty Reforms.
GeoesaI.MITCHELL said, It was a. snare a Paddies host
the ioyal inhabitants of lidfast, than the Sypilelds Pithiest was
frame the loyal lababitants of Leaden. Sack a Releases thli /To.
diaaprayed for would lead to a Rs essladsa.
tiIITRANCIS BURDETT replied, that the passe Mistral
had stated nothing against the realm width ewe hays any
weight. Belfast was in every way a meet sagionwate newm, and
any Petidon waning front it deserved the AGM ortfirsestailities.
libitoaty kind of Beprossatadoe, howsearorisimb balms as-
.

j.,y0.1. was dial of.fa tofteh Dar; tieb.—(itestc).lsin the .o:tibia:loft
of the Marquis of Donegal!, and the gallant Gererai stood in that
House as the ItrpreseutJtive—not of Belfast—but of the Noble
Marquis--(Nrite, hear.) Nothing was runts natural that that it
should apply to the Legislature for r, lief from such an injury.
General MI reHELL was scarcely known to Noble Mar.
gels. After Iresidence of bye yens iu that town, be inlishitants
had been good enough io r.,turo 'heir Member.
The Petition was rea,l, and kid on the table; as were also nne
presented by Sir FRABC/5 Rotas rn from Ash y•di•-la•Zotich,
and one wont jfus•on—with anotiier from the Joiners and Car-
penters o; the Metropolis, on the subject of !Worm.
Lord roz.KiTONL presented a Petition from the Borough of
Newbury, in Berkshire, prayi a '<thorn in Patliametit.--Or-
dered to lie on tl:c table.—rhe House theta went through tire
other Orders of the Day and adjourned.

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