Star.
London, England, 1817-01-30 00:00:00

,

eases trot end each peti,ions with a voice sufficiently
audible to attain that .tension which he thought
they ought to receive.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
again ipote to order. He subtnitted it was the duty
of the Speaker to preserve silence while any petition
was being read, and any clamour like that described
by the Noble Lord to have been excited in particular
cases; would have been immediately checked by his
interfttence. He suhraltted, it was not for any in-
dividual Member to pursue the coarse which had on
this occasion been taken .by the Noble Lord.
The SPEAKER having once stated the order of
the House, had not expected the Noble Lord would
again have departed from it. The Noble Lord now
knew what was the" coarse proper to be taken, and he
trusted he would not lore sight of it again.
Lewd COCH RANE would not do that which in
the opinitin of the Speaker was improper. He hoped
the Petititm which he now presented would be read
by the Clerk with au audible voice ; and he'forther
b6ped, that every one in the House would attend to
the prayer of it. Adverting to what had been said
of the late distorbances, be would challenge any man
• to prove that these had occurred at meetings called
to consider of petitioning for a Parliamentary Re-
form. He defied any body to prove that any efforts
had been made to subvert the Constitution, or that

their proceedings had in one instance made the inter-
. feeence of the military necessary. They had ,heard
of riots at Bristol ; but the only disturbance that had,
occurred was caused by a Police Officer, a person in
the pay of Government, who bad been found attempt-
ing to create a riot. For the disturbances of Spa-
fields, these had originated with a mob who bad been
to see some men executed, consisting of base4lnd dis-
orderly persons, such as were found in:every town,
and of .starving seamen, who, after bravely fighting,
the battles of their Country at the Nile and Trafalgar,
usideithe brave Nelson, now found themselves without
the means of subsistence, reduced to a state of misery
acid starvation, and forced to kg for stipport. In
this.state it was natural to suppose them in such a state'
of irritation as would naturallg drive them to excess's.
The SPEAKER again reminded the Noble Lerd
that he was departing,. though in another mode, from
the established order of that House. It was the
right and duty of a Member presenting a Petition to
*tate the substance of it, but to go ao further at that
time.
Lord COCHRANE then described the Petition
to be for the abolition of sinecure places, and for the
introduction of strict economy into every department
of the State.

Mr. FREEMANTLE said that the Noble Lord
bad transgressed the Orders of the House. In the
int instance, the question was put that the Petition
should be brought up, and this carried, it was nest
moved that it ahould be read. He stated this merely
to chew the Noble Lord had been in error. He
wished to say nothing of the put ; but he was deli.
TOW of putting him (Lord Cochrane) on his guard
for the future.

Mr. WEBBER thought. from the course pursued
by the Nobk Lord, there might be someth;ng con.
tamed in the Petition Which was not consonant with
that decorum which ought to be observed by those
who addressed that House. He hoped Lord Co-
chrane, baring read, would vouch for the proprietor
of its language; 'or if this were not done, and it
should' be found that its contents were not such as
eight to be submitted to that House, he hoped some
Member of greater weight than himself would move
a vote of censure 01 it.
The Petition was then read by the Clerk.
Mr. PROTHERO not having seen the names at.
Maid to this Petition, could not pretend to say who
the Petitioners MIL But this he could say, he had
not been asked by any one of his Constituents to sup.
part-it.—(leer, hien hear.) After stating this, it
was almost superfluous for him to say, that he was
thoroUghly convinced it did not speak the sentiments
of the people of Bristol.—(Hear, hoer, Bear.)
Mr. HART DAVIS said the Petition before the'
Blase had been voted at a public meeting in Bristol,
bat riot at a meeting regularly convened by the She-
rdf. A large proportion of the attendants consisted
of women and crisnt and ant one hundredth part
of the inhabitants of Bristol had sanctioned it by their
presence. He had not been at it himself, but this in.
furniation he hail received from a friend who was
Mete. On the day of the meeting, he knew there
had been bet one feeling on the subject in Bristol—
that of aosiety for the preservation of the public
miter ; and no fewer than 3200 of the inh:tbitants
hid.enrolled themselves as special constables on that
occasion. Whatever the feelings of his Constituents
alight be on be delicate question of Reform—how.
ever anxious they might feel that the Constitution
shoold undergo some revision—that those imperfec-
doss which in the lapse of ages had crept in should
be done away—whatever they might feel on these
pipititi, be was sure (though he would not take upon
hiolself to say what their sentiments were on the ques-
tion of Reform). that this Petition did nut emanate
from them, and that it did not express their semi.
Amt. He therefore protested against its being re-
tieived as the Petition of *the People of Bristol. The,
Motile Lord- bad said there bad been no riot at Brie.'
toe, but that attempted to be created by a Police.Of-
ker. Of this' till that mimesis, be had heard no-
thing; and 'therefore could make no comment on the
11iiie
so 'Kt t, bet hefelt it.to be his duty again to protest
this Petition being received as that of the City.
. istol.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUZR
aid, how far this Petition was from being that of the
Poo 7'e of Bristol, the House, after what had just
deco stated, would be able to judge for itself; but as
it *as 'the Petition of * public meeting, he could net
tie (Lisa. wield be improper to lay it on their table.
Saine'4f ilie topics *?rich it embraced*mightnot have
EWell Sutrodstied ; bug at Me same time, he
gist there writ nothing so divltpectful to the
se=so dready transgreliting its rums., as to call
siiiiiVin to !Ojai it.
' The epealon, that the Petition should lie on the
6liii,,, Was Put and carried. .
Lord COCIfRA.NE *rose tot'fer some explanation
sio the 'Alta Of Petition-
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER
called the Noble Lord to order, and renundsd him
that tie ?Wait' was disposed of, and that Woe was
so question before the House.
The §4PEAKER said the Noble Losd could not

speak on the subject of. the Bridal Petition. *bat
be had to isty nltist.be tifferetton* some other question.
Lora COCHRANE wished to slate what he had
Wended' to pity.
The SPEAKER appealed to the House if he bad
.not done his.duty, and left it for them to determine
whether the Noble Lord should be heard? ( Ckeering.)
Lord COCHRANE presented a Petition from the
Township of Quick, in the Parish of Saddleworih, in
the County of York.
The Petition having beeti read, on the motion that
it should lie on the table—
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
for the same reasons that had operated on his mind
when be reenpuneaded that the last Petition should
lie on their table, he deemed it his duty to object to
this. That Petition, though it went as far as a Peti-
tion could go irithOut positively insulting the House,
did not directly-attack the House or its privileges.—
The present Petition appeared to him to be a libel
ipott both.
Lord COCHRANE said, while the Petition was
being read, there had been such a noise in the House
that he could scarcely bear a word of it. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had had greatly the advan-
tage of him, from sitting nearer the Clerk, to hear it
so well, that he could pronounce it to be a Jibel on
the House and on its privileges. •
The ATTORNEY—GENERAL thought the li
House had a right •to expect that the Noble Lord
would see the language of the Petitions he undertook
to present was not at variance with decorum. He
had attended to it, and he did not hesitate to invite
the House to judge of its merits; and if the Noble
Lord wished it, he was well content that it should be
read a second time, that it might be seen it it was
what he would now pronounce it to be—a contrived,
determined, and deliberate libel on that House.
The Petition was then read by the Clerk.—lt set
forth, that the House. could not be regarded in any
constitutional or rational sense, is the representatives
of the people. That when this was the case, the
Constitution was subverted. and the state to which
they were reduced, who were subject to taxation
without representetipo; was that of, slavery. It emu.%
donned the policy of the late war, and declared that
the power of those whore mad or wicked counsels
bad commenced or continued it. ought now to be
put an end to, and recommended. resistance by all
possible legal means. It set forth that the proceed-
ings of the House were a mockery, and expressed
their disapprobation of the repeated protracted.aad
disgusting debates with which it was from time to
time occupied. It complained in strong ternsiof the
grievances brought on by the present system, and
represented the House to be only perfect in the
science of raising money from the people, and in
laying on the lash of taxation to tholast extremity of
human endurance. It called for general Reform,
and for a return to annual Patiiainents.
Mr. BROUGHAM confessed, that from not hav-
ing heard the Petition, as the Attorney-General did,
when it was first read, be had been prepared, by
what had fallen from bins, to expect a very different
reading. He (the Attorney-General) had described
the Petition to contain nothing throughout but a
direct wilful slander on the House, and on its privi-
leges. Now, in the first place, nine-tenths of it did
not refer to the House or to its privileges, but to
general subjects of complaint, though, as Reform
was its subject, it began and ended with Parliamen.
tary Reform. There were different modes of stating
' things. There was a judicious, temperate, and mo-
derate way of stating grievances, such, as the Attor-
ney General, the most consummate advocate of the
day, would take, if be were now the friend of Par-
liamentary Reform, and suck as some years ago the
public might have bad the benefit of obtaining from
his talents. Thee was another mode, which was
injudicious, and wai not marked by temper and de-
corum—one which was irrational, and could injure
none but those with whom it originated, and weaken
no cause but that which was so unfortunate as to be
the subject of its advocacy. He opposed the dot-
trines contained in this Petition, and lie wished it
thus early to be known, that be was an enemy to
that which was called universal suffrage, as he was
to that which went to the distruction, and not to the
reformation of Parliament ; to the overthrow, and
not to the amendment of the Constitution, and con-
sequently to the annihilation of all security fur pro-
perty. He desired then, that he might not be mixed
up with these Petitioners, from whom be totally dif-
fered. He. was a friend to Reform. He wished
those flaws to be corrected which time bed made in
our system t and it was because be was. the advocate
of Reform, that he opposed the wild, vague, and, it
they could possibly be acted upon, pernicious schemes
of those who held the opinions contained in this Pe.
anion. But the question now before the House was,
whether the language of the Petition was so disre-.
• spectful that it ought not to be received t He con-
tended this was not the case, and that, though irra-
tionally worded, as it only announced a wish to
oppose the present system by constitutional means,
there were no grounds for rejecting it. The House
ought not at any time, but tome especially at a pa
tied like the present, to be chary about the Words
used by their Petitioners, uto reject Petitions, be-
cause they contained sdm random charges and un-
just censures, directed,
.against all parties in that
House.
Mr. CANNING observed, b the defence which
the Learned Gentleman had made of the language
of the petition now before the Heuse, he bad omit-
ted to notice the consequence drawn from the state-
ment of their constitutional objection to the present
House of 0111111101114 which, he contended, made it
improper to receive the petition. He would admit,
that without insulting the Henze that mode cf argu-
ment might be capable of being maintaioed,whiCh was
resorted to by those okho were of ppinion that other
theories than' those which govern, or whickhave ever
governed this country, ought to form the basis of re-
presentation. But When they were. told that they
were, in.no comititutioaal or rational sense, the repre-
sentatives of the people ; and wheo,havig said this,
the petitioners went on to'assert shit the Constitu-
tion bad been subverted, this was no longer the lea..
guage of petition ; it was directed Lomas embalm.
If we had nnlonger a Constitution remaining, what
was the language of the departed Coostimma In ,
such a ease it justified resistance. The Hemiunglie,
and Learned Gentleman would agree
.with him in'
this, and concurring with him in this instance, why
did he not say that he knew it was in the 'ninth of

T-

• •
the Petitioners to restore the subverted Constitution
by resistance ? If such language was to IA tolerated.
there was an end of the House of Commons, and of
the present system of Government. He.sens disposed
to throw open wide the doors of that Housz to t!.e
complaints of the people—he was content to receive
the most insulting petitions, provided they led to no
inference that practical resistance lt•4d become neccs.
sary, but they ought not to suffer those to be laid on
their table as materials for discussion, which con-
tained the direct and dangerous assertion that the
people of this country lived under no constitution.—
He therefore felt, that to receive Ote.petiiion now be-
fore them, would be inconsistent wtth the dignity of
that House, and with what was of more importance
than the dignity of the House, the maintenance of
the true and independent forms of the Constitution.
Whether it was true or not that the representation, of
the people in that House might he made better, none
could have a right to say, that the sittings of a body
which had existed far centuries was a usurpation, and
that they had no title to meet as the representatives
of the people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. C. W. WYNNE differed from the last
speaker as to the propriety of their receiving the most
insulting pens. He was of opinion, that, to in-
sult, they otTlt not to submit. He wished their
doors to be open to the complaints of the people, and
he was unwilling to be over nice in criticising the
language in which they were ►et forth ; but an in-
tentional insult ought not to be tolerated. The peti-
tion censured their debates. The publication of those
debates was a breach of the privileges of that House,
of which no notice wits taken ; but if petitions foun-
ded on such publications were to be laid on their
table, the House might be involved in endless con-
tests on the language used in former discussions.—
On these grounds, feeling, as he did, that an inten-
tional insult had been offered to the Houk, he should

oppose the motion.
Mr. CANNING said in explanation, he had not
wished the House to submit to insult. All he meant
was, that he should not be disposed very critically to
examine the language of petitions, provided the prin-
ciple on which they were founded was unobjectionable.
Mr. BRAND anxiously looked to the language of
petitions, and without attending to the proceedings
of those demagogues, who laboured to impede the
work of Reform rather than to advance it, he always
felt sincerely sorry when it beeense necessary to re-
ject petitions on this subject, from the manner in
'which they were worded. In the House a Member
could not assert that the present Members were net
the representatives of the people. but he could say
of the Members of any former Parliament, that they
were not. Members had said in that House that the
Constitution was subverted, but did they mean by
this to justify resistance ? It was hard that peti.
tioners should have their petitions rejected from their
being little acquainted with the forms of the House.
fireonsidered those who introduced violent language
into the petitions, to be the worst enemies of the
cause they affected to support. He was fearful, if
the present petitions were not suffered to lie on the
tsble, that its rejection might deter those moderate
friends to Reform from coming forward, who were'
sincerely attached to the Constitution.
Lord COCHRANE said, none could regret more
than he should, the offensive wording of the pe-
tition, if this should cause it to beerjected, knowing,
as he did, and as they all did, that those from whom
they were presented, who telt most on the subject,
were least capable of entering .into all the nice sub-
tleties of language. It bad not struck him, as it (lite
the Attorney General, that this petition conmined
any thing derogatory to the dignity of the House of
Commons, such as it ought to be. He moved that',
the petition should be received, and hoped this would
not be opposed from any petty objections to wording
of some parts of it.
Mr. LAMB considered it to be impossible for
them not to sympathise with the Noble Lord in the
concern which be felt lest the language of the Peti-
tion should not be deemed such as to justify them in
suffering it to be laid on their table. When the terms
in which he spoke of that House in other places were
borne in mind,he was sure no one would doubt the sin-
comity of his regret on this account. The Petition was
full of violence, and as he, like his Honourable and
Learned Friend, was anxious to make known his sen-
timents on the subject of Reform thus early in the
Session, be would now say, not only that he disap-
proved of Annual Parliaments, but of every plan or
scheme of Reform that had been devised, either lat.
terly or in former times. He considered the whole of
those he hid seen to be formed on false views sounded
on misrepresentetions of the ancient constitutino of the
country. Not one of them contained the truth ; not
one of them was free from lies and misrepresentations
of facts. He however could see nothing in the lan-
guage of this petition that called upon them to reject
it. If the line was to be drawn for the rejection of
petitions only where they denied the legislative pdwers
of the House, this ought to be received, for here these
were distinctly admitted, and they were called upon
to frame a Bill for Reforming the Parliament. The
last petition bad almost denied to the House this
right, and had called upon them to receive and pass
• Some Gentlemen out of doors were ea pre-
pare and send them a Bill, which they were to piss
for their own dissolution and destruction. Was
now in some places the popular plan. The use here
attempted to be made of the House of Commons,
reminded him of the codclact of Setjeaut !Agouti
and Some of the old Reformers. After the civil war,
these persons who had some knowledge of the forme;
of the Constitution, would have a Republic ; and to
make this legal, it was proposed to make a King to
give his sanction to a Bill which they had it in con-
templation to prepare and get immediately passed, to
do away the title and authority of the King altogether.
. Mr. BATHURST co4ended there was no reason
to tear the rejecting this Petition would prevent others
from being presented, to make known the sentiments
of the people on this question. He was decidedly of
opinion the House ought not to fear to assert its dig-
nity, by refusiug to entertain that which could only
have. been, mat to insult them, from an apprehension
that doing this, they would get a character which
they bad never deserved, that of refusing to hear the
complaints of the people when properly brought be-
foo them.
. Mr. F. DOUGLAS thought if the House refused,
this Petiuon, because it denied that they were in any
constitutiOnal or ratiodal sense the reeicesentativse 01
the peoplee they must make op their mind to reject

all the petltioits about to he prnewted'ein the sot**
of Parli4mentaiy Ref( rm. He thought the sent:s*,,
of all Petititmers aught to be treated with incloil,teno,
and that it their complaints were forwarded in a ctn.
stiiution 41 way, they ought to he t cceived, howee.4
negligently they mieta be wnr:ied.
Sir S. ROMILLY intruded to vote `tat ''ir
(ion sh..Nuld be recto/v.l, thong.', !,:: .!it.apprtiv
lanituage of it• 'I he I-Intise not Zr he ve,
&oh in such matters; and he c•,1111 tint conscirr.
tiousiy say he thought the Petitini ers had deaired to
insult them. He considereclit might he desiralaie to
refer the Petitions on the subject of Reform I a con.
'entree, and lie shoold greatly lament the loss rt 2,y
information that might be :.forded to them fif 'se
sentiments of the prolate. He thought the Right lint;.
Gentleman oppc ste ( Cai.niog) went too hr ►
supposing that the Petitioriers templ:ated tr
tame. lie could not think that they entvrt..:npj,.
such views:, IT he woo!4.1 onctie.ftion:thly 5t,.:
House to assert its own chgnii y, and do its duty,
rej-cting the Vetitio,..
Mr. C. G It7),NT said, whether the
meant to insult the 110.1,e or not he could net
but when he satti that y sentence cone:tined
salt—that it asserted o:ern not to be the R. p! r!,,n7
tives of the People—that it declared the Coiis!iti; ,
to be subverted—that it did not appear to b„,,
dtawn op carelessly—that no want of lit:rary knot.ledge could he observed in it, when he saw Om it it
had been the object of the Petitioners to insult tl.e
Heuse, Wry could have taken no r•iiirse m
to accomplish their design, he could hot no of .err.,:,,
struction on it than that such was really ns ci j cz.
It this Petition were received, he thought they scuind
not be justified is rejecting any other, however di,
respectful or insolent its language.
A i'dcsisca desired to hear the Petition read.
The SPEAKER said it had been already read
twice, and it could not be read to every Member vit,o
have been absent at the commencement of tie
discussion, without putting a stop to the business
the House.

The HoNot:name MeNtemt wa3 nat aware that :t
had been read a second time.

Sir W. GEARY spoke its favour of receie;nr ti:•
Petition.—'l•he House divided, when the nunibrs
vier% A yes, 4s—Noes, 135—Majority. 87.
On re•aduiiision the Clerk of the House was real.
ing a similar Petition from another Township in the
same County.

On the qtiestion that the Petition lie upon the table,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEk
observed, that its language was exactly the same 3s
that of the preceding, which had just been rejected.
The House might form an inference from that boa
far those Petitions expressed the genuine sentiment
of the people, and whether they wen: not rather
at tful slict.tiuns of factious dernagotnes ?—(iirar.l
Lord COC HRANE had presented those fet+:i:it
because he thought it was his bounden duty as a Men:-
bar to do so. He assured the House that there was
PIO man more sincerely attached to the Governmet:
of the country than he was. It could not be dcitis.
however, that abuses did exist, and he trusted tl:/:
the House would not cavil at words in the reccrtiint
of Petit;ons for their removal, hut would admit them
to ascertain the general sense of the people. If PA
tions were rejected on trifling grounds, a feeling it
irritation would arise, which would require all the
means mentioned by the Prir ce Regent in his Sperch
to restrain it. .Such irritation ought tea be careilor
avoided. He felt Confident that he had not ,t,re
more than his duty as a Member, in laying these Pe.
titions before that House. If they spoke against t`e
manner in which Members were elected, he miwil
state an instance which proved the justice of the:
complaints. When he first came ii.to Parliamect
himself, he was returned for the Borough of Honitns,
and the bellman went round to the inhabitants nlthst
place, offering £lO lOs. to all those who should ewe
in iris favour, to be received at his banker's. He
had got all the bills about him at this moment—
(Awe.) Could he then be called the choice of the
people? He might be punished for what he had
done, and he acknowle.lged that he had acted wrot4;ll.
He had been impelled by a most foolish !native.—
The I act was, that he had come home with a grr
deal of Spar i.h money, with which he did fo: key
what to do—(Lawerier.) He had heard that aha
rough was open, and tee had bargained for
the proprietor, who would have returned equ.ny
black servant or his great dug—(!fear.) As to tt
allusions made to demagogues, he trusted the ti
was not far distal f when the House should Ices :ita
neither within nor without its walls, he had ever
that which was nat. He le.so trusted the Hours
would duly consider, before it reject, d the Petoii
of the people, and wouid make vet ry proper 41::••
ance for the irritation of their feeiings.
Mr. CANNING ailowed, that the Noble Ler
had only done the duty t.t A Member in taken; chare
of the Petitions. But after the recent decision uf
House, was it politic in him to press the reaps::
a Petition, containing the very .ante
out giving an opportunity to those, by winos it !..J
been drawn up, of malting any alt: r.aiens wd.cs
might enable the II arse to receive it, confive•.:ll
with its dignity He would advise the Noble lio,L
although Le feared his advice would not be receirte.
to withdraw the P,tition fur the present. By Jun.'
so he would act better by those who had sigrad
than if he continued to press it, in its presto: st.u.
on the acceptance ut the House. •
Lord COCH It NE. notwithstanding the It'^t.
lessness of the Right Honourable Gentleman
his advice should he Welcome, was diipry:ed to tau
It, and would inform the Petitiohers that its lays"
WAS such AS could not be received.
The Petition was then withdrawn.

Lord COCHRAI4F. presented a Peti.ion.f'.3l
the town of Lm 4, s, in the. - oish of Asbton-undel-1.1"
in the County of LancaNier, and one from the '1 og*
of Oldham, in the same County, praying for Rele:r
and Annual Parliaments. One of these attribru.
the present distresses of the country to the War,' r•
~
fuse expendiiure, and the existence of sinecure pl.ico
and excited a loud laugh by the,wurds—" .:11 '
could not have happened if the whole pop!? id,l :'.
in your Honourable House."—head, and o:dacw :.
lie on the Table.
Lord COCHRANE then presented a re'l''‘. 1
from the Town.of Asbton-under-Line, in t! !e AI
'County. The Clerk having begun to real, , •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQt.,r.
:asked whether it was not word by word the ssnit 'i