Star.
London, England, 1816-03-16 00:00:00

SEX ad a fA,olt7erva-
H*4.qi4o.r;'.*•4m4l,,iips:',,r..

of their Lordships to the point of who these Peti-
tions came from—from the. Citizens of London, who
bad mere than once so patriotically come forward,
particularly in 1792 and in 1798 ; in which latter pe-
riod they pronounced tl • e strong resolutions, in cos.
sequence of which the Property Tax was introduced;
and these very individuals now coming forward
against the Tax, was a circumstance which merited
their Lordships' serious' consideration. ':here were
two words, his Royal Highness observtd, in our
language, nearly alike in pronunciation, but very
different in their signification, namely 66 lissatisfac-
tion"And 66 disaffection." The former naturally gave
rise to reasonable representations in the way of the
petitioning; but if such should not be attended to,
and their reasonable expectations disappointed, it
may naturally be expected in some degree to lead to
the latter. His Royal Highness then glanced over
the progress of the National Debt, and stated its
amount at different periods since the year 1700, ythen
it did not exceed ten millions, to its present amount,
which he calculated at 830 millions. He then ad.
verted to the extensive proposed military establish•
ment, which, if determined on, must necessarily in-
volve an extensive taxation for its support; but for
such an establishment there could not be any nem.
sity for proposing a continuance of the Income Tax.
He thought material reductions in the establishment
might be made ; and if that for the Colonies were re:
trenched, a proportionate reduction might at once be
made in the home establishment. The keeping up so
large a portion of troops in France, he thriught, may
be attended eventually with serious political colic.
quences; and, as events may turn our, in very diffe.
rent or opposite ways. His Royal H:ghness con.
eluded with a few observations on our military sys.
tem, as it referred to Continental politics, and in a
point Of ♦iew of which he stated his disapprobation.
The above Petition was ordered to lie on the Table.

REDUCTION OF THE MILITARY ESTABLISHMENT.
The Order of the Day having been read tor enve.
ing on the question of the Military Establishment, as
proposed by the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, his
Lordship rose, and called the attention of the House
in the first instance to the numerous and urgent peti-
tions from all quarters, and from all descriptions of
people in the realm, from the proprietors and renteis
of lands, from the cultivators of the soil, from the con-
sumers of its produce, from the merchants, the tra-
ders, the manufacturers, from the artisans, from all
Classes and descriptions of people, which loaded, and
were still pouring in upon the table of that House.—
With one consenting voice the Parliament was
called upon in those petitions to redeem a pledge to
which the people deemed the Legislature bound for
the mitigation or removal of the excess of those bar-
dens to which the public had cheerfully submitted,
while the necessities of an unpreCedented state of war
called for them, but which, when that war no longer
had existence, they naturally expected would likewise
cease. The public, so far from their reasonable ex-
pectatiens being gratified, found only an-intention, on
the part of Miniiters, to continue the most odious and
intolerable part of their burdens, in the strange and
unprecedented extent of a peace military establish-
maim Reference had been made, and some undue
inferences had occurred, relative to the part which he
land some Noble Friends had taken on a former oc-
cation. They had then acted only according to the
strict and immediate necessity which had been impo-
sed on them by previous measures, aed which could
not at once be overcome. Reference-had been made
to 1786, and likewise to the peace which terminated
the war, called Lord Chatham's war, in 1763. But
nothing in those periods, or in their relations or bear.
jags,• was at all applicable to the public dissatisfac-
don at the present time. The difference in the value
of money had been mentioned too ; but he was sup.
ported by the admission of a Noble Lord opposite, in
saying, that little or no applicable or adequate change
in that respect had taken place. In considering the
,military establishment, he would willingly leave out
the thirty thousand men maintained in France ; that
lie would concede to the faith of treaty in the present
instance, though it well became their Lordships to
look a little farther at their leisure. He would con-
, tent himself then with adverting to the military esta-
blishment at the time of King William, in the year
1697. when 24 thousand men were thought fully
sufficient, even under the apprehension of a contest
from disputed title. The colonial allotments were
enormous. He would part,cularly call the attention
of their Lordships to did East Indies, where no less
a force collectively than 28,000 men was demanded ;
that too in a time of-profound peace, although the ex-
perience of preceding and brilliant times had shewn,
that with less than twenty thousand men, opposed by
the active and enterprising hostility of nati ye chiefs
and against the power and influence of 'France, Hol-
land, and almost all Europe, we were -triumpliaa
there. He next alluded., to t!re extraordinary force
which it was intended unnecessarily 'to keep up in
other settlements. The force at Gibraltar was inten-
ded I. be increased, although the destruction of the
Spanish lines had removed all apprehension of dan-
ger in that quarter ; and although the Spanish Go-
vernment was as incapable of doing mischief, as it
was of doing. good. (Hear, hear.) He could not
also help expressing. his surprise at the large force in-
tended to be kept in the lonise, Isles. These were
possessions which had not been claimed by us
were put into our possession' ifira re the o't
powers did not know other
toedoisdpesebof them,
causetbeyietuired hotobew
dcfedy a naval andforce ;

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for, indeed, it was. by ,a navy alone that they could
be protected. Because these isles had been put un-
der our protection, were we to maintain a military as
well as a naval force for their defence ? Had we
not a right to look to the people of the islands, many
of whom were very rich, for a military force to pro-
tect themselves r He did not meen. he said, that we
should cell'on them for contributions in aid of our
revenue, but that they saould be required to give
such contributions as %Might furnish the means for
their protection., For his own part, he thought the,
lonian Isles a burden on. the country. They were'
given us by the Congress of Vienna because none
of the other powers thought them worth keeping.—
That Congress of Sovereigns, after amply providing
.f.ar thernselvei and others, made us their residuary le-
g.iteeq, and gave us that which nobody else would take.
lc .Ippeared that fourteen thousand men were to be
. erneloyeef in our West-Indian colonies, in a time of
profound and secure peace. In the year 1766, the
whole of the force maintained by us in the West
India Islands did not exceed 2092 men, although we
then had all the possessions which now belong to us,
except Trinidad, St. Lucia, Berbice, and Demerara;
the whole of the force employed by Us at that time
in North -America was less than what was now at-
tended to be maintained in Canada and Nova Scotia.
With respect to our increased possessions in the West
• Indies, he could not see in what manner they were
useful to es. We first were at the expense of taking
. them ; ani then we gave three millions to Holland
for not gitiag them back ; whereas, he believed, it
• would hale been much better to pay Holland that
sum for taking the islands off our hands, for they
did noanore than produce sugar which reicould not
consume, and waste British capital which could not
lee spared from the other islands. The Noble Mar-
quis next adverted to the enormous force which it
was intended to keep up in Canada and Nova Scotia.
If this great force was intended as a counterpoise to
check any force of the United States, the object was
futile, as we could never keep up a force equal to
theirs. The population of Canada was alleged as'
one reason for justifying this increase of force; but
that was the very reason that should render the force
unnecessary, for a population was created on the
frontier for the very purpose of such defence, and
acting as a check against the United State. With
respect to St. Helena, he had no objection to the ar-
rangements that had been made for the safe custody
of Bonaparte merely as a matter ,of policy, for it
- was necessary that his person should be secured.—
But, he would ask, what sort of policy was it in us
to be at all the expense of keeping and seeming him?
All the Powers of Europe had a joint interest in se-
curing him, and the expense-should be borne eou Illy
by them all. He mentioned this circumstance merely
to shew, that, wherever expellee was incurred, it be-
came the custom for the different countries connec-
ted with England to saddle it upon her by a kind of
common consent. He should next come to the great
military establiehment intended for Ireland. It was
impossiole for him to disease this sta j atahout
. saying a few words on the state of Ir,eland. In the
actual state of that country 2'5,000 men would be
wholly iraufricient to keep its people in order; and
the use of these eaaa eat nee, -would soon require the
employment of as mar.y more. The great man wl.O
effected the union with Ireland had foreseen all these
. •
evils, and in bringing forward that measure he anti-
cipated certain benefits which had never since been
granted. • Mr. Pitt had said, the consequence of the
Uaion would be, to give the people the benefit of
itish Legislation ; but no such thing had ever been
done ; on the contrary, the Government, for the pur-
pose of raising a temporary revenue, had done every
thing that was calculated to destroy the morality of
the people; they had done every thing to promote
the use of ardent spirits so destructive to the health
and morals of the people. Like the Indians of Loui-
siana, who had cut down trees in order to get at the
fruit, the Government had cut up the morals of the
Irish people for the purpose of obtaiiiiug a paltry re-
venue. He next adverted to the force intended to he
employed in Great Britain, which he conceived much
greater than was necessary. In 1781, the peace esta-
blishment was 15,000 men. In 1792, it was 13,920,
exclusive of 2,000 for Guernsey and Jersey. What,
then, called for so large an addition as 8,000, to the
force to be now employed at home ? One argument
was, that it was necessary, for the purpose et supply-
ing our garrisons abroad. But, it he had shewed
that smiler garrisons would be sufficient, then that
reason tell to the ground. Another case was, the
.necessity of employing troops for the protection of
the revenue. This system he considered detrimental
to the disc ip inn and character of the force employed.
Buz, leaving this cinaideration out of the question, it
was worthy of observation, that the force which had
received tl.e greatest increase, as that which was
the most expensive, and the least calculated for such
• a service—he mean! the bray horse. The amount
of that force, in 17 fr 2, was 785 mene--in 1802, 3,4,
and 5, it had prngressively increased to 1,456 men—
and it was nov• re) lass than I,74l—being double the
number of 1792. This force was, of all others, the
least applicable so those public services which were
stated as a reason for keeping up so many troops, at
the same time that they were more expensive than
any other. The charge of fitting out a light dragoon
.being £49, while each of the horse guards cost £63.
There was, therefore, no economy in the selection of
the troops, even allowing the gross number to be ne-
cessary. The Noble Marquis then observed, that the
duty of the guards and garrisons might be performed
by bOOO or 10,000 men picked from the 26,000.
who, (over and above those who were returned dis-
abled) were receiving pensions, instead of employing.
erdioary troops. There was another force too, he
meant the marines, that would' be useful in the same
service. He now came to the Staff of the Army.
which he coeiiidered entitely aoo large, as compared
'With the body of force to be kept up; and the ex-
pense he looked upon to be excessive. In 1761, the
chew of the Staff of Great Britain evas about
1 56th of the charge of the whole army. In 1784.
it was less than 1-100th. In 1786' it was about
I.looth. In 1792, it wai 1.90t1t. And in 1816,
as appeared by the papers on the table, the charge.
Of the Staff was equal to 1.17 th of the expense of
the whole Ateny.—(Hear, hear.)—So that in the'
course of fifty years, this expense had increased
trona-one-100th to one-17th of the expense of our
military establishment. (Hear, hear, hear).
Re knew a valuable increase had keg made so the

-
• •

Staff, but be did not think any pessli;le god anti 1
be derived to the army, equivalent to such an nor•
mous accumulation of expense. The Noble Marquis
then applied himself to the different heads of Ord-
nano", Barracks, arid Commissariat avartments, is
each of which, he *contended (is reduction ought to
take place, at a period of pew) and tranquillity.
He partizularly adverted to the folly of continuing a
salary of 41600 or 41700 per annum, for keeping
up a military communication across the river Med-
way—and alto the uselessness of keeping up the Mar-
tell° Towers, at a great expense. When this coun-
try was threatened with invasion, it was feared that
the French fleet might sail up the Thames and destroy
Rochester bridge. In which event a military commu-
nication was very properly formed across the river, at
another point. But certainly there was no necessity
far keeping up that communication now, when we
were at peace with all Europe. He expressed himself
hostile to the erection of barracks in England, and ob-
served, that the sum of £160,000 which was charged
in the Estimates, for erecting them and keep-
ing them in repair, was sufficient to providefirst-
flaor lodgings for all the soldiers in England.—
On the whole, his Lordship expressed his opinion,
that, for all the purposes of foreign and domestic
security, a much smaller force would be sufficient—
and that any force, beyond what the security of the
country absolutely called for, must be mischievous.
It was not by numbers that our army had acquired
its glory. Nor did our security at home call for
an immense military force. We might rely, in the
hour of danger, on the inherent bravery and pa-
triotism of our people, without introducing arncrapt
them that love for military parade which was foreign
to their manners and habits. In what did the sects•
rite of a country consist?—
" Not it. lalsk.raised battlements, or lofty mounds,
In moated castles, or in stronvb:tilt tow'rs,
But man, bieb•mlntled man."
This was the emphatic expression of an individual,)
who united the talents of the poet with the laborious
industry of the man of business. The Noble Mar-
quis, after some further observations, in which he
placed in a very strong light, the jealousy with
which the Parliament and people of this country had
always viewed the keeping up of a Standing Army,
concjuded by moving—

" That an humble Address be presented to Ms Royal High.
nes. the Prince Regent, to thank his Royal Highness for being
pleased, in compliance with their desirei to lay before the House
the Estimates of the Military Branch of the public service
They observe, with grief and content, that the amount of the
Military Establi•hment, in time of peace, so greatly exceeds :hat
which was thought necessary at tiny former period, (or the safety
of the country, especiaby when no enemy threatens the safety of
his Majesty's dominions. They siew, with regret, the cuutinu-
ance of those burdens, by which the channels of industry are in.
vaded, and which can only be relieved, by a redaction in every
part of the public expenditure. they, therefore, humbly beg his
Royal Highness to order such reductions to be made in the
amount of the Estimates raw laid before the House, as will be
consonant with the state of our finances, and conlormable with
the ancient and establisised principles of this country."

Earl BATHURST proceeded to answer several'
of the points advanced by the Millie Marquis. It
was considered necessary to the defence of our Indian
possessions, in consequence of the attacks of various
Powers, to keep up 20,000 men in India, and until
some favourable accounts were received respecting
the permanence of the peace lately concluded, at
would be impossible to diminish the number now
proposed. There were altogether 43 principal colo-
nies ; of those 17 had been acquired since 1792.
There was a great istcreaseror the colony of trppel
Canada since 1792 Newfoundland had also greatly
increased in population, since 1791 the inhabitants
had increased from 3 to 400 to 70,000 persons, and
this population would require an increased force.—
The settlement of Sierra Leone was also a new place
what required a considerable force. Botany Bay
also required at this time a great force. In Saint
Helena, where no King's troops had ever been before,
there was now a force of twelve thousand men: this
place had formerly been entirely in the possession of
the India Company. There was not one of our
Allies who did not express a wish to take Bonaparte
and keep him at their own expense ; but it would be
a violation- of our duty if we had acceded to such a
proposition. Austria and Russia would have kept
him ; he did not know in what way ; but it Was
thought proper, as he had delivered himself np to
the English, he should remain in their custody.—
There were altogether twenty-three additional colo-
nies which we did not possess in 1791, and which
now required our protection, and called for additional
numbers of troops. In. North America, particularly,
a very large increase of force was required. Previous
to 1791, Upper Canada was a mere waste, with;
scarcely a single inhabitant; since then, the country
was peopled. and cultivated ; they carried on their
improvements towards the borders of the United
States; the communications were open between both ,
nations; and, was it not necessary to establish mea. I
sures of defence against future danger ? Tor the
whole of our N•irth American possessions no greater
tome than 9000 men was proposed to be kept up.—
His Lordship next defended the force intended to be
kept up in the NI lest India Islands, on the ground of
economy. He then adverted to the Cape of Good
Wise and Ceylon. In the latter settlement thire
were two military stations, one at tolumbo, and the
other at Trincomalee, between which there was no
communication except by sea. It was necessary
then to keep up 3000 men in the island ; but as soon
as a land communication could be completed, the
number would be reduced to 2000. At the Cape,
the number of men Was 3000, because it was neces-
sary to keep detachments in the interior of the
country, to prevent irruptions on the part of the
Caffrtes. Beside*, in case of a war in India, it might
be necessary to send assistance from the Cape. He
next adverted to Malta, which was a place of the
utmost importance in a commercial and military
point of view, and when it was considered what ex-
tensive works there were, the number of 4000 men
could not be considered as too much. In the lonian
Isles there were important works 'in some of them,
by which, they could be defended, and it wopld be
necessary to have troops to man these works. The
important fortress of Corfu alone required 1800 men
—and 8000 men were surely little enough for the
whole. If Government should conceive that a less
force was necessary, a reduction should take place.
and he had no doubt but that in after time the inha-
bitants, would pay the expense of the military force.
In every point 41 view, he contended, we were
gainers by the extension of our colonies ; we were
gainers so far aeregarded our commerce, our Mau-

twitters, and our natiowl strength. The whole
additional expense we wee put to by increased pos.
seisiOns was seBoo,ooo aYear ; and the advantage
we gained was an increasd commerce to the value
of one million and a half. His Lordship concluded
with opposing the motion.
Marquis WELLESLE' conceived that the ques-
tion of any foreign youessim was not one of value
but of danger. He had himelf long since, in the year
1805, given it as his opinbn, that the protection of
India would require 18,000 nen, and that 2000 world
be necessary for Ceylon. At that time France was in
the possession of great pdmr ; and even threatened
our Indian possessions ; aed therefore he should act
in the most inconsistent mauler if he were now to say,
that in a time of peace it was necessary to 'keep up
20,000 in India. He wished the House to consider
not only die exclusion of all European power and
influence, but that all the native Powers which had
been at that time formidable to us, were since entirely
humbled or destroyed. Could any one then conceive,
that it ten years ago, in a period cf great danger,
18,000 men were sufficient for the defence of India,
10,000 could now be necessary ? He was confident
that at this moment 1.5,600 men would be sufficient
for the defence of India, including Ceylon and the
Mauritius. The number of 2000 men intended for
the Mauritius was greater than ever was wanted in
any French settlement in India. Indeed the whole
number intended for our Indian possessions was much
greater than was ever necessary during war, and why
should the number be kept up during peace ? With
respect to our territories in the West Indies, the idea
of naval attack was quite ridiculous, for no maritime
'power existed to cause such an apprehension. He
held the same opinion as to the danger from the con-
tiguity
of St. Domingo to Jamaica; there were nu
such apprehensions in 1802, when Bonaparte sent out
an immense armament to that island. He was equally
successful in combating the arguments for great esta-
blishments in the Mediterranean and lonian Islands.
The sense sort of defence was, he observed, in each I
set up. If the place be strong or weak, old or new,
populous or d.solate, the case was m't by converging.'
arguments, and whatever way the wind blew came
into the same port.—(Lsud laughter.)— En looking at
the state of Canada, lie expressed his satisfaction that
our impolitic demands had passed away witle.,ut in-
jurious consequences, and observed, that the best se-
curity for the solidity of our American Government,
would be found in securing the affections of the pet).
pie. The Noble Marquis, in reviewing the items of
the peace establishment, each of which ought. in his
opinion, to be revised, said that in a short time the
Government had fled from one extreme to another.
It had been his lot to have grappled with them for
starving the Peninsular war, and they now were run-
ning riot in military profusion, they were determined
to thew, if they at one moment starved the war, there
was no fear of their starving the peace. He would tell
them, that this system could not last—that economy
was the arm of peace, and parsimony its panoply ;
but the Minister who, in time of peace, called tor a
large military establishment, betrayed his ignorance
of the Constitution, and of the ttue means of national
defence. The Noble Marquis then went into an able,
constitutional argument, to thew that jealousy of a
standing army in time of peace was a primary source
and an elementary principle of the Constitution.
Blackstone said, the law knew no such thing as a
perpetual soldier. He then eloquently described,
chat Eugiand, from per geographical situation, was
bound to adopt an insular policy—the true source ofj
her greatness, and of her Continental influence. ' In
time of peace she should spare her people, to recruit
her energies. Under no circumst'aces short of actual
existence, ought she to submit to a system of taxa- I
tion. which went to subvert the productive power of
capital. The last war, it is true, was a monster that
made the meat it fed on ; but the artificial conse-
quences of it were now felt by the prevailing distresses
of the country. He then rointed out the impolicy and
impracticability of the Aherne for preventing smug.
gling by a militiviy cordon of.cavalry, and strongly re.
commended a better enforcement of the revenue laws
by the civil power. If the new mode were adopted, a
Knight of the Bath !night be seen seizing silk hand-
kerchiefs and ribbons, and metamorphosed into a reve-
nue officer ; and the Noble Earl opposite ( Liverpool)
might perhaps perform an exploit on thehughts of Wal-
mer. 'l'lle Noble Marquis, in referring to the force for
Ireland, notwithstanding the opinions of the Noble
Earl opposite (Limerick), and the Right Honour.
able Secretary elsewhere ( Mr. Peel), declared he
would refuse his assent to its adoption, unless it were
accompanied by a soothing and healing system to-
wards his of country.—(l-/ear, !tear).--A
belief that die tortured mind of Ireland was to be
healed by the oblivious antidote of the hayonet,
could only be ascribed to a mind perverted by
obstinacy and misrepresentation.--(Hear, !ear)._
They had, indeed, been told that the evil was of
old standing—that it was of wide and complicated
growth; and beCanse the enormity of its difficulties
almost appalled inquiry, that inquiry was never to
take place; therefore making the tremendous ex-
tent of the oppression an argument for its perpetuity.
Lord Chatham, when describing the mission of the
American Commissioners, in his dying language in
that House, eloquently proclaimed that we sent men
to treat with a sword in one hand, and a law still
sharper than the sword in the other. So in Ireland,
the fatal practice bas been to follow up the sword
with the still keener edge of the law, until it pro.
duced a more terrible inflammation. The Noble
Marquis then proceeded to ridicule the argument, that
we had confederated to put down a military system
in Europe, when, in fact, we were only establishing
one ; and, to make the folly more complete, raising
ourselves into a military attitude to keep pace with
the station of those powers among whom we had par.
celled out Europe. This was a strange way of teach-
ing a moral lesson to the world, in whose eyes we
must appear as the pillar of that system, against
which we had affected to direct the whole battery of
our hostility. (Loud cheers.) The Noble Marquis
concluded by expressing his hearty concurrence in the
Address. .

Lord SIDMOUTH defended the Peace establish.
ment, and set forth the great importance of keeping
up a considerable military force. - from former peace
establishments having been too low, the country bad
had great difficulties to contend with, and p great ex-
pense of money, and an incalculable waste of life had
been the consequence.. Had our army been on a
more respectable footing at the commencement of the,

!lee .116
war. he thought it might have been hron to s
tisfartory conclusion as a much earlier prtiut
Ai
the Peace. f Amiens Parliament liacl agrie,l her
Peace establishment of fifty tholsaild 5..,
ninety-five thousand troops. That ue arc v,.,5 '.l
censured in some qu ,rters, but it ~vas 1:rv„ •
against it, that the maintenance of such
was proposed at that time to Iccep up, would inch,
ger our Constitution. Inc put it to the NaMe
opposite it it would have been pract;c-ble
country to have .clone with:llerileare
lishment than that now proposed, :lad the, alegwi4.
twins commenced in 180(i with I.l,rtaparte, nt,
basis of. soli ftoniddie terminated in perce ?r/h2
He then went over the establisime:as i 3 ;ad')
West Indies, and in North America, a:4 proved the
force proposed to be kept up on each station ,„,
vibe necessary. He :hewed that horn the Corp—
anion Army to be kept up at home, no danger, in 4
constitutional point of view, could be appreheno,d.
He went at some length into the present state of Ire,
land, to prove the necessity of keeping up am ara47,i
25,000 men in that country. He set forth the g"
benefits which Ireland had.derive‘i fro:n the mea,„t
of the English Parliament, to refute the declare,:
that no beneficial Legislation for the sister kiegd,,'
could be fouled in the annals of our Parliar,
proceedings. Finally, he decl.red that he 41,4
most consci.mtiously Irr,!e against the ati.frea, !ma
the conviction, that if adopter!, its efFects scum be
injurious to the WC tt I A:. rest; of the c(aitAti.
GaENVII.I.I.7. said it. was n..w a
that the establishoteot which Ministers prova,44l
keep up, was imen,fayid to be the permaiant smog
England ; riot withstailding the appeal made Ay the
last. speak,4 to the caperieoLe of the country, he ~,,144
assert that experience to be decidedly iu favuartithe
greatest possible reduction of our military erawsk.
ment. It was by reverting to our old system in liae
of peace, that we should best literate the means of
successful exet Lion, wfienever the cntavry mig4 en.
gage in a new contest. The habits Id the citizen in
peace, best prepared oho British soldier to defend his
country in war; and he could see in the history of the
last war, nothing that led him to regret that out attar
had not been more numerous r.t its commencement.
An augmentation of our naval ((Ace woukhavebees
more grateful and more beneficial to the country,the.
that increase in our Milit try Estayisbmcias, *eh
Ministers had taken upon themselves to propose—.
Every possible saving ought to he made that coaklia
any way be effected, and a reduction in our expenl.
sole of 6 or 0800,000 ought nut to be spok..-; Of
lightly ; a diminution even of five or X6OO at this roo.
ment of agonizing pressure should not be despia
The enormous Establishment of 150,009. inen pry
posed, could nut be necessary unle-s it was iateic.el
to suhject this country to a military government-L.
When first heard such a force was to be m
be was convinced it could not really be wattled ; at.d
still more was he sati,fied of this, on perusing the dc•
tails before the House, which had the appearance of
having been drama up by a Qaarter.Master, whose
ingenuity had been tasked to fired statioas what
150,000 soldiers might be disposed of.
The Earl of LIVEttPOOL defended the peace
establishment at considerable length. Referring w
former periods, he she wed that it had always beta
augmented with the increase in the population, an!
conseqrently in the occupied territory of ow' colteres.
He maintained that the force in India was not to,
considerable. Tim chief danger winch might thteates
that country woold proceed from the interior, acd if
there were not a strong force on the spot, the distance
from England wouldrencler ail assistance front home
unavailing. Hz: then dernenstratcd ti._ importanie
f of keeping such garrist;ns in our col.-Atie,, especi.lly
j in the Mediterranean, as would secure them agaisst,
I a surprise.
_

The Duke of NEWCASTLE objected to the
Establishment, as enormous, unconstitutional, and
beyond the means of the country to b.,.ar.
The Marquis WELLESLEY explained.
The Duke cf BE DFO fps: to correct, *said,
a mistdke of the Nohle Secretary of State; he meant
with respect to the distribution and applicatrin ot the
f)rces in lrcland in 1807. He had stated it was
c)1,:1y applied to civil purposes, and the Lke. Were
the army in that country at the time suffered to
in such a state, he should deem it a breach of dmt
in himself, and one -deserving of impeachment. He
could confidently appeal to the Noble Earl. who, la
much to his own honour, and the ~dvantae cf In-
land, then commanded its army, it it were not mg
complete state'of preparation, and ready for all thiae
duties whiz!' circumstances miLht call upon It to
perform.
The Marquis of LAMDOWN spite in reply;
and Viscount SIDMOU 1.11, to explain certain p..inu
in his speech, on which the Marquis had animal•
vetted.

The Marquis of LAxsnowN shortly.
The House then divided. when these ppearl:
Contents 27 Proxies 42 - - 64
No: Contents 65 Proxies 74 - - IV

Majority in favour ut Ministers - ---:3
Adjourned at Five o'Clock t Morning.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
This day, there being a Call of the Houses which, hove:err.
was not enforierl, the Galli ry Iva< tint open till after flee u'rl,!c'e.
The Pillory Abolition Bill was read a third time and l a•v.
The Shop lifting Bill, after a few ehservadonts foot: •
HURL ROM I.LT, the Al TORN LT GF.N ERA Li and NC'. Aln.'o"3
C. SMITH. was read &third time, and p t•srd.
Sir GEORGE WARRENUEIt brought tql cf ':"-
In Council, that had been .4-den-if, respecting .:.:.lanes. La..;
the Table, anti ordered to be printed.
Mr. LUSHI NCI ON brought up Copies of Precesos Wad
by the Court of Exchequer. Laid on the 'Fable.
Mr. LOCKHART brought up a Bill to prevent the Con;:iti-
sinner under the Insolvivet Act (reins receiving any inure Pe*
,inns, which was read a first time, and ordered to be
.re..! a se
cond time on the M of Ap.il.
Sir M W. RIDLEY moved (or "An Account of the ii%•1.4
enjoyed by the Govet not and Treasurer of Greenwich
for 1815 and 1816, and an account of the Pensions aid
enjoyed by ti came." Ordered.
J'''
• •
'l'he Irish Fe:Loamy Bill, after some observation' front cit
Newport, Mr. L. Foster, and Mr. Reel, was read a second ona,
and ordered to be committed by the whole House on Virsjelve'
day next.
On' the motion of Mr. BROUGHAM, some Papas relative
to the Scotch Exchequer, w-re ordered to be printed.
A Copy of a Minute of Council of the Sd of August ic
26th George 11. respecting the Penrions to the Widows of Na
Officers, was moved for by a Member.
Mr. GROKER mentioned his jntendon to lay accounts bersee
the House upon the subject of the Pensioni mentioned by As
Hon. Member. He could nor. receive any information from tilt
Minute for which he had ntoved. The order was wit/161.2*c..
The Irish Election Bill was read-1 second time, and (gritted t/
be committed on Monday next.
Mr. DROUS}HANI brought up Petit/one (rem be. *ragas

n hroTtht to
•
ha prtiut Af.ft p
lead Rgrced t., 4
td
5.., 'II
tre
LVAti I:rVc t t.r •
F suds a kree es it 10 up, would endis,
o the NoMe lasrds C
nact;c-bli: tin tiro
:11er Peace estab•
had thn negucia, t
13,naparte, tLe Tr
D per ce ?- (M i
ar
:;:t.3 13
a:,,1 proved the'
each ttAtion was
from the Corpp,
zb
e, no danger, in 4
d be appreheti&d.
resent state of he a
sing up an army 41 •
set forth the greit
fram the measure'
ate the Jeclar4,o,
the sister Itingdoet
our ParliAmetitir
ed that he siv jut t
the ad.trel, /ma • .
its eiF:cts 'said t
tc c(l,;:tiy.
1V.15 11-W arr,rnit
tl& t rs prop sot%
arn.4l.t Ilt S)Ete 4 • a
ppval mask by 16
e couch'', he *Aid „ e
tily iu favunr tithe t
erabihk.
old system io time
!pare the means of
cn„wry !sliest en.
its of the citueu jn .r
Allier to defend his e
ill the Listory of the
'g:et that out attar
Its tom mencrukiit.
cc 'rook have!**
a, the con:Jo/ilk%
041,1,broclits,
rives to propose..
wade that 04144
ion in our expeol.
t to be sPPkt•'' sf
ftr £6OO at this rni,.
d not be deyii
150,009. men iv). •
le..s it wits iateui,ed ;el
Lary goverurnentz- ti
as to be re tiat2i4
ly be Wanted ; :1;4
on perusing the d't._

w

I;.
A
A
h

)-•

ni
11l
1.

if

IT i

he

_ , ,

vibrato of St .:sloes% St. George's, sod St. Martin's-in-.
..Firiji sgtinst the so
Inlvent Debtors' Act. Rest, and or.
' be r• fermi to the Insolvent A,ct Committee.
sr. TIER zgEy moved, " That, there be laid before the
n Account of the Establishment of the Admiralty on the
a D•CV
oIP ber I et*. Ordered.
. •
- &red, on themotion of Mr. BROUGHAM, that there be
,/,,., ike !louse, e• Return of the Wades of Officers of
it-bore, for the year* 1810 and 1814 ; and also Copies of
coye,posoleace between the Board of Customs and the Trea-
...,° "Wee to seizures made from a Regiment of Cavalry at
'm la October, 1814 ; as also a return of the increase of
eyries"" of the Auditors of Excise in Scotland.
iv Report of the Marine Mutiny Bill was brought up. To
old*
third lime on Monday.
goat of the Bank Loan Bill was brought up ; and after
move
between the Chancellor of the Exchequei,
and Mr. Bankes, was agreed to.
riGree . NETTBEN presented a Petition front a Tradesman in
PZi, of Lambeth, complaining of certain hardships which
ra
fA—soge from the conduct of the Collector of the Income
"-it, peddoo set forth, that the Petitioner was assessed
as•;0 ova male Tax, which assessment having become due,
cc!"'
__tbdiee by the Collector. The Petitioner had in the
eras
,nr--2 ~..., a Bankrupt, and informed the Collector of
u_...7.,i70pee, at the same time giving him the name of the
l'ribe bankruptcy,. with which the Collector went
aoeii di. period the Petitioner's creditors, being satis-
,iicesebeet, presented hint with some furniture, and
vsoTtetemag with his business, for the support of his wife
.., i but scarcely was he settled, when he received ant).
;do folee Collector, with a demand for the tax already
hel, Ogee lib refusal, front inability to pay, an ezeotition was
;ism his hoot, which swept away alt the property he had,
obuged him again to shut up his shop, and reduced him to
of distress. The petition being read, was ordered to lie
ems'

PROPERTY TAX.
Mr. BYNG brought up a Petition from the inha-
bits of the Parishof Isleworth against the Property
'lL...Laid on the table.
gr. BYNG brought up a Petition from Ham.
vntnith against the Property Tax.—Laid on the

üblei
gr. BYNG also brought up a Petition from St.
reel, Westminster, against the Property Tax,
hi& was read and laid on the table.
Mr. CALVERT broht up a Petition against the
rnperty Tax from the Parish of St. Giles, Camber-
ell.--Laid on the table.
Se G. HEATHCOTE brought up a Petition from
the Landholders and Inhabitants of a parish in Lin-
cenobite against the Property 'fax.
Sir C. BURREL thought proper to mention, that
if petitions which were sent up to Members had their
feassopen, and were directed, 4, Parliamentary Peti-
tion," they would come free.
The Petition was read and laid on the table.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved, « that this House
he called over on Wednesday, the 3d of April, the
day preceding the Inquiry into the State of Ireland."
to.
.Mr. BAKING wondered why several Papers re-
specting the Property Tax had not been laid before
the House, in the production of which there could
have been no difficulty.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
was unable to assign any reason for the delay in the
returns mentioned by the Hon. Member.
Mr. BARING moved, that the Papers alluded to
be laid before she House forthwith.—Ordered.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought op a
Petition from the Town of Eye against the Property
Tu.—Laid on the table.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW brought up a Petition
from Guildford against the Property T eix.—.Laid on
the table.

BONAPARTE.
Mr. TIERNEY rose to make a motion respecting
Ie expense of the keeping of l 3 onnpai te : he wished
o know what number of ships were employed in
lag b:tw;xt Great Britain and St. Helena? The
Ipsnple in that island, he understood, were considera-
ivy increased, and the expense of necessaries were
nisch augmented in consequence. The Right Hon.
Gentleman then moved,

* That a Return be laid before this House, shew-
ing the notnher of ir•!nsports sent, and about to be
tent, to the islaail of St. Helena, the quantity of
Jr tonnage, the time for which engaged, and the
teof expense."
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the Right
Ihnourable Gentleman had not stated, whether he
aunt to indult the ships which were to remain near
de Island.

Mr. TIERNEY did not care whether the ships
?T to remain at St. Helena or not. He merely
laird to know to what expense the country would
klithie by their being employed betwixt Great Br:-
titisd that island. —'f he Motion was agreed to.
MARINES IN AMERICA.

.....
Mr. TIERNEY had another motion to lay before
Ole [louse, which respected the Marines. He had
keen informed that a number of Marines had been
dr4fed into the Line in Canada, and that they had
since been britight home, when they might have re-
mined with a very great saving to thc Government.
He then moved,
"That there be laid before this House an Account
tithe number of Royal Marines in Canada, between
to sth laauary, 1815, and the sth January, 1816."
Mr. CROKER could inform the Right Honour-
-61! Gentleman, that he had been totally misinformed
the susject of hi* motion. Two battalions had
been formed, it was true, whit!' were employed in
SPirt, and which had been sent to America when
the, Were no longer necessary in Spain, from the suc-
cesses of the Duke of Wellington. He did not mean
'hat they were really battalions, but companies of men
Ile into regiments, and formed, merely fora tempo-
;47 purpose, into bodies that might be called batta,
"111. Our bad success in America, and various con-
kg4ent causes, had made it expedient to keep those
.I.Lriaes fcr a while embodied. When they were no
longer necessary, they had been brought home, as they
acre forced to be, before any new duty or destination
t4l be assigned to them.
Mr. TIERNEY thought, that whilst the Marines
were in Canada, they might havti been kept there
vith a considerable saving; and nothing could per-
ll* him that they would not have been much bet-
ter there than at home.
Mr. CROKER took the liberty of informing the
„
Ight lionourablq Gentleman, that the Marines
could not have been left there, as they were obliged
come home before they were put upon the esta.
sishinent. The Right Honourable Gentleman
!lilt to have made better enquiries before he had
1;11-any thing against the corps of Marines, which
RA always acted with such honour to themselves and
_the Houle.
244 TIERNEY should not have said any thing
"ct the Marines, if be had not burst so much aim%
i •

the military being kept up, and the great pity k was
to throw such great meg adrift. He wished to know
why Sir' H. Popham, had a flag ship at Deptford ?
and it it was common for such a flag ship to be kept
in the River during peace t
Mr. CROKER could assure the House that a flag
WAS only kept up during war, when ships were pay-
ing off, or
.when others were waiting for orders re-
specting their destination. In time of peace that flag
would be taken down, but at present the war esta.
blishment was not all-paid off and dismissed. He
could assure the House also, that the keeping up of
that flag was a great saving to Government, as it
promoted. good order, expedition in manning, and
from a variety of other considerations, it. would not
be prudent to take it down immediately.
Mr. TIERNEY wished to know if there was an
additional Commissioner at Deptford ?
Mr. CROKEIt believed there was no additional
Commissioner, though he could not say. whether there
was or was not one during the war.
Mr. TIERNEY did not altogether approve of the
Master Intendant.

Mr. CROKER hoped that the Honourable Mem-
ber would recollect that the Master Intendant and
the other public Officers lie had mentioned were in
different departments.

Mr. W. VVYNNE thought the Marines might have
been kept embodied, in Canada.
Mr. CROKE R repeated the reasons he had before
given for, bringing th.tt force home. He believed
that if they were not brought home to England at
the end of the war as well as the sailors, the disad•
vantage to Government might be very serious.

PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE.

On the motion of the CUM/MELLOR of the Exam I
QUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply, to take the Prince Regent's Message into
consideration. The Message having been read,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
said, that after the unanimity which had prevailed
the night before, in voting an. Address of congrato-
lation to his Royal Highness on the happy occasion
of her Royal Higlusess Princess Charlotte's marriage
with Prince George Leopold Cobourg de Saalfeld,
he felt no difficulty in applying to the !louse to
make a provision which should unite tl:e purposes of
domestic comfort and proper splendour, with those
of economy, which the situation at• the country ae-
quired. The object of the proposition Would be two-
fold. He should first move an annual allowance,
equal to the suppert of the rank and dignity of those',
illustrious personages, and next an immediate giant
as an outfit for their establishment. The annual al-
lowance he proposed, should consist of AC60,000, of
which £lO 000 would form the pi ivy 'purse of her
Royal Highness. That sum should be granted du-
ring the life of her Royal Highness, and should the
painful event of her demise occur, an income of fifty
thousand pounds a year shanld be continued to th.:
Prince of Cobourg. The present allowance of her
Royal Highness being no longer requisite, there
would be a saving of about £30,000 a year on the Civil
List. As to the sum he should propose as an outfit,
he was certain that the House was too well aware of
the propriety and comfort of making a suitable Es-
tablishment on the outset, and how favourable it
would be to ecoaomy, by preventing diatory and
after payments, not to agree both to the principle
and the amount of the grant which he should ask.—
This outfit he should propose should be made egyi-
valent to one year's allowance, or sixt y thousand
pounds. It would be employed in purchasing arti-
cles of furniture, and whatever might be necessary
to complete the establishment. The various expenses
in plate, carriages, wine, &c. were calculated at forty
thousand pounds—ten thousand pounds were set
apart fur the articles of. dress, and ten thousand
pounds for an addition to her Royal Highness's
jewels. 'Those items made altogether seao,ooo. He
had thought it prsferahle to unfold the whole of the
subject to the House at once. There was only one
more point on *filch he should make any observa-
tions. It was this. It had not hitherto been practi-
cable to select a becoming residence for the reception
of her Royal Highness, and it was possihle that an
application ought be made to Parliament for further
aid for t:.at paepose. If such an application were
made, he had no doubt but that the House would
proceed with the same loyal attention and interest
which it had already displayed.in behalf of her Royal
Highness. He concluded by moving, that a grant
of £60,000 a year be voted, in order to provide a
suitable establishment for her Royal Highness No-
eels Charlotte Augusta, and his Serene nightie:::
Prince George Leopold Cobourg de Saalfeld, to be
continued during the lives of their Highnesses, •and
that his M..jesty be enabled, in case of her Royal
Highne's's demise, to settle the sum.of fifty thousand
pounds a-year on his Serene Highness the Prince of
Cobourg.
Mr. TIERNEY had nothing to object to the al-
lowance proposed. He ':ad no doubt, but that once
accepted by those distin::,ished personages as gads-
factory, they would conduct their expenses on a sys-
tem of economy, which would give them still greater
claims to the kvour of the House. With respect to
All residence becumine their rank, he suggested that
the Ordnance Office, which had been fixed in Pall
Mall some years ago, being reduced in time of peace,
might be removed to some other place, and the ex-
tensive buildings which it now occupied, might be'
ate-plied to the use of her Royal Highness and her
distinguished Consort. tie wished Government
might turn their eyes to That edifice, as comfort and
economy would thus be best consulted. The allow,
ante to the Prince of Cobourg, in case he should sur-
vive her Royal Highness, was.extremely liberal, and
he was glad it was so. From all he had heard of his
Serene Highness, he was ready to give hitn,full cre-
dit for the best intentions. He repeated his entire ap-
probation of the provisiou proposed. It was libeialo.
but not extravagant, and such as it became those,
Illustrious Personages to receive, and the country co'
bestow. 1,
Mr. WARD explained, that the OrdnancrOffice
was not the property of the Crown, as the Right!
Hen. Gentleman seemed to have supposed. Only
the mechanical part of it was in the Tower ; and!
much inconvenience would result both to the servicef
and to the.public, were the Ordnance to be removed
from the neighbourhood of the other offices.
Mr. TIERNEY suggested, that as the Ordnance
Eitablishnsent.must be • considerably reduced, some
'place might easily be found for • it in the neighbour.
hood of Dowaing.strcet. .

.

I Mr: FitEEMANTLE considered that it was Rte
most economical mode that could be adopted to give
her Royal Highness an _adequate allowance, With a
grant of money sufficient to form a proper Estab-
lishment at once. In•this manner future applications
would be prevented, and .he was •certain, from his
,awn knowledge, that the House would have reason
to applaud its own liberality.
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to give his feeble tes-
timony In favour of the proposed plan. There was
no worse economy than that which would attempt to
do too much. It a smaller annual allowance had

been granted, and a smaller sum as an outfit, there
might have been a renewal of those scenes which had
disgusted the House and the country—of those ap-
plications for the payment of debts, which, though
incurred, perhaps, at first, through the want of an
adequate aetablishmeet, had since proceeded from a
different source. He approved most sincerely of the
intended Establishment ;
,though some doubt had
risen in his mind respecting the propriety of continu-
ing £50,000 a-year to the Prince of Cobourg, in case
el her Royal Highness's demise, as that fa exceed.
ed what was given to our own Princes. But on con-
sidering, after having been plaCed so high, besides
the sorrow of his loss, the mortification which his
Serene Highness would have to encounter on descend-
ing- to a lower income, lie felt that doubt nearly re-
moved. The allowance was liberal, but he hoped
it would be spent in this country.-:-(Hear, hear, frail
the Afinisterial ride).—There was but one feeling in
the House and in the country on that subject ; and
as her Royal Highness, though sole apparent heiress
to the Crown, was likely to tome into the situation
of any other woman having a liu.baod, and to be in
the power of that husband, be trusted the House
would be attentive to secure the rights of that Royal
Person, and the order of succession, by taking ail
the measures necessary for that pnrpQse. He had no
idea of limiting the residence of her Royal Highness
to any place beyond her own wish. If at any time
she should desire to visit foreign countries, m"re
connected with her husband, he did not mean
to raise any impediment ; but to place in her hands.
by Act of Path tin.ttr, the power of continuing in
this country, it such were her good pleasttre, net.
withstanding her coverture. There was another point
t,‘ which lie wt;uld direct the attention of the Finns?.

They 11241 now, With .t degree of unanimity 441ticli
did them bottom, and which could-not fad to be gra-
tifying to the illustlions poties, approved the liberal
I::%tahlishmetit proposed for that distinguished branch
of the Royal Family. He should now suggest the
propriety of availing themselves of this unanimity, of
this complete silence of party feelings, and taking
into consideration an arrangement which had once
before been proposed to the H :use, and hid then
been rejected. But piny spirit, was then raging in
greater violence. He meant an arrangement in case
an event should take place, ol which, however pain
flit the contemplation, the possibility must be ad-
mined : the death, or the incapacity of the Prince
Regent to exercise the functions of Royalty. No
arrangement now existed in the contemplation of such
an event. It had been suggested, at the periad to
which he had alluded, to esablish a permanent Re-
gency ; but Parliament hl,d been pleased to form a
temporary one. What could not he effected in the
„storm of passions, loosened in 1810, might now be
coolly and judiciously attempted. The fatal event
frarloictr might render such an arrangement afterwards
necessary, was now remote, and the discussion would
therefore be carried an with more temper and wis-
dom, than if the necessities of the case calkd at once
upon the House to interfere. He had taken this op
portunity to throw nut these observations for the con-
sideration of Parliament. No man felt more sincerc
respect for the illustrious parties, or should deprecate
more deeply any admixture of party feeling in the
vo:e of this night.
Lord CAST!.EREAGH gave credit to the Ho-
nourable Gentleman for not wishing to introclaw.
party feelings into the tliscussion, at a time when all
weredisposed to offer up their prayers for the happi-
ness of the illustri.ais c,nple an 4 the Royal Family.
Yet he must think that the 1-I,m )urable Member had
mixed something in the goastion which did not belong
to it. Tile supposltion of incapacity in the Prince
Regent WAS not a sw-ject for di tossion at this p.:riod,
and with respeta to t!ie point of residence, he was not
lawyer enough to know whether it would be passible
to force her Roy 41 Highness out of the country, but
he deprecated the creating a notion in the public that
there might be a wish in some quarter to fix the resi-
dence of her Royal Highness in some other country.
It the Honourable Member had given way to such
alarms, he would gladly dispel them, by assuring
him that they were totally groundless ; he assured
him, from his own knawledge, that there was the
most perfect understanding as to the right of resi-
dence between the high interested parties, and that a
distinct record of the fact had taken place in the mar-
riage-settlements of her Royal Highness. He hoped
he had now relieved him from his alarm. As to the
question of Regency, this WAS not the time for its i
discussion, and with respect to the allowance to the
Prince of Cobourg, in case of her Royal Highness*
demise,, it was liberal, but to act differently would'
he harsh•--(Hrar, hear, fran the Oprerition)—tpwards
an individual, whose coming he was sure the coum.'
try was disposed to hail with satisfaction and con-
fidence.
Mr. BROUGHAM was sdrry that the Noble Lord
should suppose he wished to mix useless questions
with the present. It was certainly not likely that the
illustrious person alluded to, should feel the want of
such protection as he had suggested, but it was the
duty of the House to look at and provide for the pos-
sibility of the case. He was glad' that a clause had
, been inseited in the Marriage Settlements, but an Act
of Parliament embodying that Stipul dim could alone ,
• give it force. He concluded by calling on the Noble
Lorcl to state, whether an arrangement of that nature
, had not been proposed in the negotiations which had
taken place.on a similar subject in 1814 ? (no answer
WAS returned).
i Mr. BARCLAY inquired howa saving of 030,000
i would be produced on the Civil List by the proposed
arrangement ?
1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
) stated, that the regular income of her Royal High-
ness,Ro
the Princess Charlotte was #115,000; but there
were other evenses connected with her establishment
which would make up the saving about £50,000.
Lord CASTLEREAGH explained, that this sum
included the expenses of the attendants on her Royal

. - .

H ighness, her Ladies, and the persons who contris
buted to her education.

Mr. W. WYNNE approved of the establishment
proposed; but as it was formed on nearly the same
footing as that of an Heir Apparent, he wished, as
long as her Royal Highness should continue in that
light, she should be placed under the same regetations
as the Heil A opatent was by the law of the land.
Lord CASTLEREAGH apprehended that the
clause in the marriage settlements included all that
was necessary. Her R.,yal Highness's residence
abroad would be shortened at the will of the King,
that of the Prince Regent, or at her own desire.
The Resolution was then put and agreed to, and
the Report was ordered.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On the bringing up of the Report of the Com.
mittee of Supply,
Sir JOHN NEWPORT inquired why the total
pacification of India, and the extinction of all hostile
force in that quarter, should be made a plea to in.
crease the Military Establishment id that part'of our
dominions ?

Mr. WALLACE stated, that the expense ef that
establisiiment was supported by the East India Com-
pany, and that the effective force was not so conside.
rable as the nominal one given in the estimates. He
urged the necessity of maintaining a respectable army,
even in time of peace, in a country where there was
only one European to 1000 natives. , He regrettNl
that the Honniirable Baronet had Selected this y,.ar,
when we could hardly conceive. that we were at peace
'in India ; the Rajah of Napaul being the richest
Chief in that country, and the forces of Scindiah and
Holitar being also in great power. There was also a
new predatory power which had atis2n, the finder.
rahs, who had a force of 50,000 nr 40,000 men ;
these were inclined to join with the Mahrattas ; and,
under all the circumstances, it was highly nece.s try
that we should always be prepared to repA their in-
cursions.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT explained. The state-
ment he had heard of the intermediate condition of
India between peace and war, removed much of his
objection to the ResAtaion ; but he should eau-env-1y
regret placing a great force under any Officer, which
might afford -a temptation to increase our territories
in that qua-ler.
Mr. T. COUHTENAY, Sir JOHN NEWPORT. and Mr.
WALLACE, sever.,lly explained.
Mr. CALCRAFI' was not at all satisfied with
the Vote proposed. He had. heard nothing which
could induce him to think .that the establishment was
not too large. The cavalry intended to be main-
tained at home was also, in his opinion, infinitely too
large for the purposes alleged, which were principally
those of colLicting the revenue. He repeated many
of the arguments so often used, to shew the necessity
of reducing the Waggon Train and other coriss.—
The reduction in the whole establishment, to the
amount of '23,000 men, might be made without any
detriment in the public service.
Sir G. HEATHCOTE was of opinion, that the
proposed Establishment only indica'.el the appre-
hension of new wars, and a continuance of taxation.

_
1.

It would appear, that our complete success on the
Continent had produced no favourab:e result. kV,
ought to consider the policy prescribed by nature for
our situation, and trust for protection to our Navy.
We bad nothing to fear from the collecting 01 large
armies, even on .the opposite shores; while we knew
that they had not the means of being transported. It
was therefore an overstrained picture, to pretend
alarm at any secret projects the Continental Powers
might entertain ; but the peace establishment pro.
ciuced tear, and rendered our late Treaties like a
mass of waste paper. The Netherlands, a kingdom
which we had established, had connected the:melt:es
with a great Power, as ambitious as ever France was
of military glory. This influence foreboded no good
to our country; it foreboded a riValship to Our naval
supremacy, against which we ought to be on our guard
by encouraging our navy. He condemned the prin-
ciple of screwing up taxation to the utmost pitch,
which would be uonecessat y but for our military es-
tablishment. The propositions under consideration
almosticonvinced him that we had been carrying on a
war against political opinions. But no military ty-
ranny, no dungeons, could arrest the progress of
truth—(flear, hear.) He feared, however, these forces
were kept up with a view of stiffing those opinions
which men chose to indulge of their natural rights;
but he was convinced that the experiment would b
unsuccessful, and these opinions would prevail, not
only in this country, but all over the civilized world.'
Lord,PALMERSTON wished to answer a ques-
tion that had been asked on a former evening, respec-
ting the late loss of the transports off Ireland. They
were as fine ships as any in the service, and their loss
was entirely accidental, and no blame whatever could
possibly attach to the Transport. Board. Notwith-
standing the vast "number of troops (57,000) and
horses,that were sent to Ostend in the summer, not a
single accident happened ; and out of 5376 horses,
only 130 died on the passage.
Mr. WARRE alluded to the great loss of horses
in the transports that sailed from Calais with the re-
turning troops.
Lord PALMERSTON said that only 16 horses
had died on the 'passage, and 16 were saved, which
formed the whole number. The casualty was caused
by bad weather, which forced the transports back.
The Resolutions were then read a second time,
and agreed to.
On the. Resolution being read for the sum for the
payment of the General Staff,
Mr. WYNNE asked some questions respecting the
quotas- of the Militia, which were answered by Mr.
ADDINGTON at cons;derable length :—He went into
details of the distribution of the force, and the man.
nor in which such part of it as is to remain embodied
is to be maintained, recruited, and employed.
The several other Resolutions moved in the Com.
mittee of Supply were then put and agreed to.
Mr. WYNNE then suggested the propriety of
postponing the other Estimates.
Mr. TIERNEY observed, that an establishment of
no less than 111,00(1 men had already been agreed
to, tor a time of peace, but the sensation it had pro.
duced in every part of the country was such, that
though the Noble Lord had gained the sanction of
Parliament' for the measure, the country felt itself
insulted.
Lord CASTLEREAGH contended, that them
was no instance in the History of England of any mi.
litary establishment haring undergo& so long a dim.

PPI

r•
p-
Th6' was the tenth night on which it had
been deliberatednpon ; and lie would affitm that
n bad any discussion produced more general am.
viction (hear, hear), and this conviction was, that the
establishment was wise, fit, and becoming. He would
farther say, that die same conviction that had ope-
rated on the mind of the House had been brought
home to the minds of the people; and in causing
their conviction, Ministers had pursued the upright
line of this duty, in defiance of all the obloquy that
had been heaped upon them The people, therefore,
. who were always inclined to hear reason, would do
them justice, and give them their confidence.
Mr. TIERNEY said, he would only wish the
qiestion to he tried by the ordinary appeal to the sense
of the people, namely, by a dissolution of Parliament.
-Gentlemen on his (Mr. Tierney'‘) Ode of the House
had done all they could, by moving Calls of the
House, to obtain the attendance of Members on this
important occasion; but the Noble Lord well knew
that they had faded in their object. and that the people
had been saddled with this enormous establishment,
when not more than one third of the Members of the
House had voted for it—(Hear, dear).
Mr. • LYTTLETON would not suffer any vote to
pass without raising his voice against this improvident
and unfortunate military establishment. It was not
a little in contradiction to the Noble Lord's assump-
tion of the general feeling being with him,ithat a
considerable portion of those who usually voted with
Ministers, about 60 or 70, had displayed their good
sense by voting against this measure.
The House then went into the Committee.
ESTABLISHMENT OF THE PRINCESA CHARLOTTE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in pursuance of the intention he bad already men-
tioned, moved, " That a sum not exceeding 5e60,000
be panted to his Majesty, to defray the expense at-
tendant upon the marriage of her Royal Highness
the Princess Charlotte with his Serene Highness Leo-
pold George Frederick, Prince of Sam-Cobourg-
Saalfeld."
Mr. FREEMANTLE asked, what security there
was for this sum being applied in the manner which
had been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that no doubt the first Officer whom the Illus.
trious Persons whose interests were concerned in this
vote would appoint, would be a Treasurer, to whom
this sum, as well as the quarterly payments of the
annual allowance, would be paid.
Mr. TIERNEY said, he thought £40,000 not a
fraction too much for the outfit, as it had been called,
of the Illustrious Individuals alluded to. With re-
spect to the plate and jewels, in the purchase of which
the remaining £20,000 was to be applied, however,
be could not help remarking, that these things might
have been expected from another quarter. If tiiey
were not obtained in this way, he did not think
020,000 an unreasonable sum for their purchase. As
to the security for the proper application of these sums,
he was sure none was necessary, as from all he bad
heard of Prince Cobourg, he was convinced no man
could apply it more faithfully to the purposes idteu-
ded than he would— (Hear.)
Mr. FREEMANTLE did not mean to insinuate
the possibility of a doubt as to the high honour of
the Illustrious Prince in question. His object in
making the inquiry was merely for information.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
never understood the Honourable Gentleman to ques-
tion the honourable feelings of his Serene Highness.
• Mr.- TIERNEY again suggested the impropriety
of the Ordnance Departme:it occupying so large a
house, as that which they did in Pall-Mall—a house
which had been the residence for many years of the
Duke and Duchess of Cumberland, and which, if
taken as the residence of the Illustrious persons for
whom provision was now making, might save the'
country a coasiderable expense. The value cf the
house was not less than 5130,000, and the Department
might be accommodated at a much less expense.
Mr. WARD said, there were four branches of the
Ordnance in the building in question. With respect
to the application of the house to the purpose intend-
ed, he begged to suggest whether it was not neces.
sary to consult the feelings of the Illustrious Persons
before any arrangement could even be hinted at.—
Respecting their residence, the discussion of the ques-
tion now was premature.
Mr/TIERNEY did not mean to enter into any
discussion of the point, but merely to throw out a
suggestion, so that it might not be said hereafter—
" He should have spoken sooner." •
Sir M. W. RIDLEY did not think the occasion
an improper one for introducing this subject
The question was then carried amidst loud cheers.
ARMY INTIMATE&

r.

Lord PALMERSTON then proceeded to move
the following Estimates :
" That a sum not exceeding 5e106,603 be granted to his
Majesty, for defraying the expenses of Recruiting in Great
Britain."—Granted.
" That a sum not exceeding 419,040 be granted fot recruits
lag in Ireland."—Granted.
• 'f hat a sum not exceeding .n 4139,435 be granted for de-
fraying the expenditure of the army stationed in France."
Mr. TIERNEY here took occasion to ask, how
the money to be paid by France was to be managed
—by what authority was it placed in the military
chest—and by what authority taken out ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that the money
to be advanced by France was droits of the Crown,
and paid by its authority into the military chest, for
the use of the army.
Mr. TIERNEY contended that Parliament had a
right to inquire into the application of this money,
in case any of it might be taken to stop a gap, as
hAst been done three times with the Droits of the
Admiralty, when, on inquiry being made, Parlia-,
meat were old, that though the money had been'
withdrawn to pay certain debts, it was tobe returned
out of some fund, which he supposed was is Ingham:.
The House ought to use all possible jealousy to
ascertain whether the five millions contributed by
France were to be got rid of in this manner.—
(Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
• hile he asserted those sums to be droits of the
Crown, had no objection to account for the applica-
tion of them to the House. They were subject to the
same prerogative as ships taken from the enemy
atter the declaration of hostilities.
Mr. BROUGHAM reprobated,the principle.
Mr. TIERNEY acknowledged most fully the get,
vices of the army, and thought them deserving the