Star.
London, England, 1811-01-24 00:00:00

the I_
degree . ,-,.once the , ; . , the .e
decision which their Lordships should make, censti. ; superfluous—there was no necessity for such a discus-
tuted as now, upon the general subject being brought 1 tient as, in his mind, no Lord whatever calied the
fully before them. The Noble Lord then adverted right adverted to ie question. He was opposed to
to the proceedings which had taken place on a former ; the idea that the House should preclude itself, as now '
eight, when some discussion of the subject took place called upon, from the means of adopting its modes of
1 while the doors were closed ; and observed, that he deliberation to the exigencies of the particular cases.
could assure their Lordships he did not know i A controul over its own powers constituted one of the
what the then state of the Proxies was, or how they ; leading excellencies of such assemblies as that House;
might preponderate on either side ; but what passed ! powers, Which they exercised for the interests of the
on that. night convinced him that it became his duty ; public. They could find no record upon the Jour-
to take an early and regular opportunity to call their ; nals of that House, on which such a proceeding as
Lordships' attention particularly to the subject. It that in question could be urged. It went to circum.
admitted of various points of view ; but whatever scribe their deliberative powers. It was objections-
may be the opinions entertained upon it, he thought ble in other points of view. Notwithstanding the de-
it of great importance that the general question should clarations of the Noble and Learned Lord, respect-
be agitated and regularly decided on by the House. ing his imputing no bl ime to 'any Lord for the pro- 1
What had passed on the occasion he alluded to, con. ceedings of a former .night, these very propositions
.iinced him the snore firmly of this, for he held it next were framed se as to cast a sneer upon these proceed.
to impossible that any reason could be given, why fogs, by a side wind. He wanted to controvert that
,
what had then passeMikula not be regarded as a pre. proceeding, which he hesitated to do directly' in
cedent. There was another reason which rendered a point ; such conduct 6, champion'd them to the et-
decision necessary : it appeared to him that the Peer- terance." What gave rise to that proceeding, but
age of England were, in these points of view, divided the wish of Noble Lords at his side, to protect the
' to twoclesses,viz.thnseLordsofParliament whowere dearest rights of the people and the country from-the
ore
sent, and those who were not. The whole as Peers blow aimed at them by the Noble Lords opposite ?
a the Realm were vested with equal rights ; he there- It was unwise in the extreme to bring forward such
fore knew of no principle that could possibly be questions at this time, a period in which, in his mind, ,
,stated, that the Lords present should alone vote, jealousies seemed to be entertained—(Order, order, ,I
it hile their right was withheld from those who hap- from the Ministerial Benclses)—he was going to add, I
-pened to he absent. Not a little stress seemed to be that such jealousies were unfounded. It was highly
*id by those Noble Lords who entertained a con. impolitic to agitate such questions at this time. No-
Vary opinion teat the assembling of the Houses was thing could be more disadvantageous, the Noble
is a convention, and note regularly as the two Houses Lord came forward on the occasion, " in rusty and
'of Parliament. This appeared to be agreeable to the marvellous ill-favoured armours." That Noble Lord
fashion of modern refinements; as was the idea that did not seem to be aware of the mischievous tendetry
there was of right, no such thing as voting by proxy. ,of such a discussion at present, he gave him credit
It appeared also as popular with some to object to that he was not. He may have a particular object
doing away subsequently in a House, what was pre- in view, and not see the extent of evil which may lie
viously voted by a Committee. But these notions or beyond that—the adoption of such Resolutions would
illusions had no weight with him. The history and lead their Lordships to a pledr, the extent of which
records of Parliament had long established the right they may not be aware of. Ihe Noble Lord seemed
,of Peers voting by their Proxies. Whether regarded to keep back the real state of the question on the oc-
as a privilege, or a duty, the right was incontrover- casion more than once alluded to—that consideration
tible. The consideration of the Peers being absent , would decide the question between them. The whole
from the discussions, could not be effectually urged, ' foundation of these proceedings was the question
when it was considered how very often it happened, whetheror not Proxies shouldbe gives in the then state
that when debates began at five o'clock in the even- iof the House ? NJ previous determination had then
jag, Peers who contributed to the decision by the ; been made, because it could sot enter into the mind
votes, did not think proper to attend in their places . of man that so gross a proposal could have been of-
before two or three o'clock in the morning ; yet none fered ; there were occasions of such peculiar impor-
ever thought this absence from the discussion, a ' tance, that much benefit would result from open and
ground for depriving them of their Parliamentary , public decisions. If this point was curried, much
roehts. Even with respect to the judicial business of , danger may arise to the best interests of the country 4 -
the House, it was never held otherwise than that it would lead to a train of injurious consequences that
Peers had the right of voting, though they never ,it was impossible to say where it would stop. GOD
beard a word of the arguments or the facts of the forbid he snohld say that his Noble Friend was con-
gests. It was true that such a privilege may be ab. 1 scious of the extent of the evils which may ensue!.'
rd, but still the right exists—but, he repeated, whe- ! As to what was Said of this being a Parliament regtO
diet it was either a privilege or a right, nothing ! early assembled, he would only observe, that Noble
old be done to invalidate it, without the fnoet se- ; Lords opposite teemed to consider it as such, or the
-rims and deliberate consideration. That this was the cdnirary,-just asit suited the objects they had in view.
0
law of their Lordships' House, he collected from the In concluding, he insisted that the question now be.
usage of many, many years past. He was aware, fore their Lordships was not only unhecessary, but
that, in very remote periods, such as the reign of , mischievous, and that in no possible view could it be
Henry 11. some writs of summons were issued, : beneficial. He should therefore move the question
which precluded the use of Proxies--but they wersf; of adjournment upon it, in order to give the House
not now assembled under any such writs, they the means of avoiding those evils, which the adoption
Wset under a regular prorogation by the will of his I of such Resolutions would lead to, and the injurious
,Majesty ; the exercise of Voting by Proxy was I conclusions that would be drawn from such conduct
allowed in all cases, even as he had observed with ;on the parts of their Lordships. He concluded by
respect to the judicial business of the House.— moving " That their Lordships do now adjourn." e
but the particular exercise of that right was a differ- REGENCY BILL.
ent question. The House had in some instances de. , The Messengers who were sent up by the House
laded that Proxies should not be used, but this had of Commons with the Regency Bill from that House,
always been done by a special reservation of the being for some time in waning,
right—but no decision had ever been made without , The Earl of LIVERPOOL proposed an adjourn-
a prelirginary discussion or previous determination ment of the debate for a few minutes, in order that
having taken place respecting the particular cases.— the Bill in question should be received, and further
The occasional practice of the King's licence with inconvenience to the Members of the House of Corn-
respect to this privilege had long been disused, and ; mons avoided. Which being agreed to—
no mention was made of it in writs for many years i The Chencellor of the Exchequer, attended by a
past. Upon these general grounds it was that he had great number of Members from the Commons, pre-
framed the propositions he meant to submit to their sented the Regency Bill, desiring the concurrence of
Lordships ; '
recurring again to what had been said their Lordships thereto.
that the Houses had not been regularly assembled in 1 The Earl of LIVERPOOL hoped their Lordships
Parliament—Against this fallacious idea he must con- I would so far admit of an interruption in their present
tend, that the meeting which took place-on the first , proceedings as to allow the Bill to be read a first time,
of November, was in consequence of his Majesty's re. which being assented to, the Bill was read a first time
gular prorogation ; that they were the Houses of accordingly, when
Lords and Commons, in Parliament assembled—they The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved, that it be
were assembled by his Majesty's Royal Authority, printed, and read a second time to-morrow.
because regularly prorogued to that day. What , ' Lord MOIRA again rose and repeated his motion
ought to have been done in this Parliament was every 114 That the House do now adjourn.",
different question from what the Houses were duly ' Lord ROSS argued at some length against the
authorised to do—but it was important it should be reasonings of Lord Mcira. He reminded their Lord
known what they were, viz. the Lords and Commons ships that their privileges as Peers were deeply involv-
in Parliament assembled under his Majesty's Royal led in the present cinestiOn. They were now sitting,
Authority. There was no possible plea for calling and had been sittiew since their first meeting as Peers
- ---,Mine ,versation—all their rights and 4 Parliorne, • ateliheyehad ber sitting .11,;

of . _ _dent '• siL._ ig as such in
virtue of they la'st prorogation, as such he conceived
their right to vote by Froxy as a right inherent in
them as Peers. If they had not been sitting its Peers
of Parliamenr,By what right or authority would they
hAve adjourned from time to time ? By what right
did they frank letteri? He regretted much the dis-.
cussion that had taken place on a former evening re-
specting this right. ;That discussion turned on points
very, intricate and perplexed ; indeed, he was sorry
to add, it war hurried into something bordering on
iiinfusion.. If they had been wrong on that occasion,
'it. Was magnanimous and wise to acknowledge and
correct their error ; -if they were right, there was no
necessity for the present disossion. He must warn
thaw! however, strenuously to assert and defend their
right of voting by Proxy, as mg of their most ancient
and valuable privileges;
ins and protecting, on tl -
might establish a precedenl
be taken more generally,
some future occasion.
The Earl of MANS?'
the privilege gf Toting,
right in their Lords}
licence, and subi,
but not to its
hint that the two Hones 'Were
• • -

such asserm.....ig a con. _
privileges adhered to them ; of course, among the
rest, that of voting by proxy. Were it held other-
wise, no writs could be issued for the election of Mem-
bers ; they could not sit in Committees, or exercise
their ordinary functions. What he said this for, was
to thew that the same authority which gave the Lords
present a right to vote upon questions before them,
also gave the Lords absent a right to vote by their
proxies ; he spoke of the right—the propriety was
another question. In this view, he argued against
the justice of finally deciding in any particular cases,
without some antecedent proceeding had taken place
against the privilege of voting by proxy; and after
again referring to what had taken place on the occa•
sion, when the question was originally agitated, he
proceeded to move his proposition, as the subjects
which were couched in font Resolutions of some
length, the substance of which appeared to be as fol-
lows : That upon any question put by the Speaker
'of the House, Proxies may be called and counted en,
unless in cases where a Standing Order of the House
determined otherwise ; that upon any motion being
made, that Proxies shall not be received previous to
any question being put, it should be competent to
any Lord to move the previous question upon such
motion ; and that upon taking such decision upon
such previous question, the absent Lords shall be ea-
‘r

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accompanied
subject
'as OM
which
made voting by proxy inapplicable. _ perceived
ao such consequence. He could not help thinking,
that on a former night there was a very improper as: -1
sumption of power ; and that the Resolutions as then
sent down to the Commons, were not those of thus
Peers of the realm. but only of a part.
The Duke of NORFOLK denied that the Privy
lege of the Members of that House voting by proxy,.
was an 'original right. It.had been at various period',
extended to a great length ; but the House had, by
its own standing orders,- at different times limited
and modified it. It was not allowed in the judicial
proceedings of that House, or when their Lordship*
sat in Committee. Hose then, under such circom.

;tames, could k be considered an inherent right i' It
was also not admitted in the periods of 1788-9, when
the Regency question was before the subject ; and it
was extraordinary to see those Noble Lords, ahe
dwelt so much on the propriety of adherhig to that •
precedent, in other points endeavour sto &vista sO-
- from it in this case. . . •
Lord STANHOPE expressed his determination to
vote for the motion of Adjournment.; not that he
shrunk from the discussion, but because it was one
mode of rejecting the Resolutions of the Noble and,
Learned Lord. That Noble Lord (Eldon) must ex.
vise him, when he said that out of his own month he.
would convict him. He would thew that he bad re-
futed every argument that night advanced in favour of,
his Resolutions, by the very doctrine inserted in his Pro.
test. In his Resolutions he spoke of inherent rights,
whilst his Protest admitted the power of the House to
limit, modify and controul the Privilege of Voting by
proxy. With respect to those Protests he must say, that
among all the Dissentients, that to which the signa-
ture of Arden was affixed, was by far the wisest, be-
cause it very properly abstained from attempting to
give any reason at all. But the Protest of the Noble
and Learned Lord, if well founded, was the strongest
censure on his Resolutions ; whilst on the other, if his
proposed Resolutions were correct, his late Protest
was a mere mockery. Such bf their Lordships, as
were versed in Parliamentary History, must be aware
that the House itself had felt it its duty to interfere.
against the abuse to which this Privilege led. Where.
on an cccasion a Peer came down with no less than
seventeen Proxies in his pocket, had the Noble"etadi
Learned Lord ever read the standing orders on titer,
subject, he would certainly have learned to resets*
his zeal and mitigate his anxiety en, this point. r
observe (said Lord Stanhope) that the Noble apd
, Learned, Lord shakes his bead, whilst,his elbow is
,shttok by another Noble and Learned Lord (Redes-
' dale) neat him ; no doubt the whisper is, " Look you
here, Jack, when next we sign a Protest, we must go .
down early to the House and read it over together."
'—" Yes," answers Jack ; laugh) " and with care
and attention too ; for if we do not, there is that
1-cal fellow Stanhope in the House of Lords, who will
Teed it publicly after us.'" (d laugh.) The Noble
end Learned Lord, however, contended, that when
the House met it was as.a constituent, branch of the
Parliament. He used the word Parliament just as it
answered his object ; and his applicati..n of the term,
reminded him of the definition of %hat was called
a pun. It was defined to be the taking of a word
in two senses, when it was predicated of the one
that which was meant of the other. A young
woman, a neighbour of his in Kest, asked her lover,
when discoursing on this point once, to give her an
"example.—" Give me a subject," said her lover. " His
Majesty," said the young woman. 44 His Majesty
cannot be a subject," was the answer, and the pun.
Similar was the interpretation put upon the term Par-
liament by the Noble and Learned Lord. But he
would ask, if this privilege of voting) by Prosy was
an inherent right, why was it submitted toaC.ommittee
CO investigate the nature of,that right The very
appointment of that,c, omrnittee proved at least that
it was doubtful, .and when there woe a doubt, who
but the House could decide upon it ? It had decided,
and the decision of them had given the greatest satis.
saction both in town and country. In some country
village it was told him that soon after that decision,
an honest Whig barber had put on his sign a placard,
saying, " Whigs shaved hate for a pew, and Tories
fur three.halfpcnce." When, asked why he made the
distinction ? his reply was—That since the late me-
morable triumph of the Whig Lords against Proxies,
'the Tories had such long black muzzles that the opera-
tion ofshaving them was rendered much more difficult.
(A laugh.) To allow such a power on the late ocea.
ion, would have been attended with the most (lane.
roue results to tlw Constitution. It would establish
the worst species of oligarchy—an oligarchy that nei.
,her listened or reasoned—an oligarchy of parchment
and of paper.
The LORD CHANCELLOR had not heard
much argument to which he thought it necessary to
reply. He thought, however, that neither he him.
self, nor the subject before the House, nor even their
Lordships' House; had been treated very gravely.
.One Noble Lord (Moira) had represented him as
.coming down to the House clad in rusty armour, and
ichampioned to utterance ; and he must suppow that
,it was to show contempt for such an adversary that
.-the Noble Lord, ,though unarmed himself, should
;have so attacked him (Lord Eldon) though thuscla#
ain rusty armour. 'lt had also been observed, tbaa
Lpeople out of doors could not have much respect, kit
their proceedings, if Noble Lords were to-vote not
in person, but by proxy; not having heard the grave
reasonings which might have been urged to impress
I conviction on; their minds... He could only say, that
ofter, the speech which he had just heard from the
_
r). (*tan) would
' •LeW(l7 "mold
House,
rather

put on Lord Mow.%
• divided—

tno. inito
. I

. `_~'~.

. . . ~ .
4
t •
His Lordship rose for dip purpoil 1411•0 top.i tlitiolipvsp.4 their' pada, theee his - t„,t iitrif. 004,414410.4.40.6.0 tat
ward to the consideration, and fdt ti.kei.: . ~...W Mig Ibelillt!fats it* wever, ta., a. lioblaj,Lopealb.that- when affairs of
f ' -"t
Itu tat"''' • iieb •
the House, the propositioni touching the su el of tiiisuon beinipAut an the rS eso ion, difScuTty pressed
.404,.. the 'House, , it was
Proxies, of which he had given notice on a oilier . 'lit" Earl of MOT rime, and ih warm and ani. proper that psiilies should be selected ; Lot this ar-
o)
evening.—Before he eutered upon the discussion mated language expressed his hostility to the adop- gtirhent went trio far; let in the present Circumstances
I
the immediate question regularly before the House, tion of the Resolittions proposed by the Noble and of Europe and tke country, he could hardly contrive
he made some remarks upon the cases and precedents Learned Lord. He said, that although it seemed ;o any public measure that would not be accompanied
adverted to in the Report. He was of opinion, that be regarded As merely a question of order, the ques- with diitculties. ft was also said, that the static . ~
wa
the proceedings and decisions of the House as it tfien ' tion involved was of great magnitude and impor- lately under the discussion of the House was. ' • .
stood, could not regularly in any degree influence the ttnce ; at best the agitation of such a question was whioh admitted of variation from time to time,
A__:..:_......t.:,.5..1...... t .m.A.),:n. chruit,t ....44.. ennsri. 1 auoerfluous—there was no necessity for such a discus.. made voting by proxy inapplicable. He perceived

—•-• ;IL.; 11.41. it./41:1.11 ••11J4,411 .J. 6••••• p.a.. aaGOLA %A MI ~..1
valuable iri;rileges; -for if they neglected assets -.14,141e-Earl, (*tanhope) who had spoken last, it
and protecting, on the present occasion, the l nis forlheir 4w-dships to, consider, whether it
;ht. establish a preceder.t, of which advantage might •ssot be bet:elgonsulting the dignity of that I-
;ken more generally, to attack and invade that 04 :and the t d mof their proceedings, to vote
ie future occasion. • .• by proxy than in petson.
'he Earl of MANSFIELD was of opinion, that The question • was then put on Lord lit
privilege Qf voting by, proxy, was an• inherent Anaendrneat, when the tiqpia divided—
lt in their Lordships, communicated by the King's content. pillion, , it,.. Prosks, 57.
nce, and subject to the regulation of the Holice, Non-cuatents present. .
Got to its confront. No argument had convinces` Majorky fog —2.
A A .
l that the two Houses ° were not a Rerliaratent ea .44 100...voltitlimp,•
Inv 3roiviAprr), . .
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