Star.
London, England, 1816-05-07 00:00:00

C

et,
th

a
of
in
?Aim

ill

g
Si
ti

1
1

11,

P'
1
id

tit
td

. - • •
nor depend oo the economy of a Sovereign, but
„„ the band of Pitovroesc.a, whether there was a nu.
Royal Family in a Country—(Litnykistg '
31351 ,0d turswoula be as unfair to find fault with the de I
ilorable calamity with which the real Sovereign of
the country was now afflicted, as with the causes
that had for some years past increased the expenses
of the Household. The Right Hon. Gentleman
los incorrect in the statement he made respecting
the expenses okhe reigning Monarch ; they did not
amount to £500,000, but to. £409,000 a-year. The
rat increase which took place in the expenditure of
the Civil List during the last four. years was occa.
sicced by the increase of Foreign Ministers, in con-
sequence of which the expenses were raised to the
amount of £169,000 beyond what they had been for
Even years previous to ISII, daring which time
Great Bri:ain had scarcely any -intercourse with the
Continent of Europe. There were now ten or eleven
ttusiiotis, not one of which existed during the seven
yeses in question. To the Household, however,
thee was an increase only of £16,000 sleer dur.
log the four last years. The whole excess then on
the Civil List, so far as the individuals of the Royal
rah were personally concerned, was no more than
itron,ooo in four yeas, during which it was aug.
seated by a variety of citcuinstances necessarily ap
pertaining to the situation and family of the Sove-
reign. Indeed, it was impossible to make a bargain
tee the Crown which did not make the Crown -too
e'en or too poor. Here there was a debt upon the
Civil List of A'9oo,ooo.incurred during the he:t four
pars, and not one-fourth of that was applicable to
the Royal Household and when it was considered
that an establie.rnent lad been formed ter tee Prin--
ceis Charlotte, that increased establishments had
been provided for other m•mbers of the Royal Fa-
mily, and that the person exercising the duties of So-
, wort required 'an increased establishment, that
excess would not be considered as too great. The
Right Honourable Gentleman had animadverted on
the espeeses attending the Prince Regent's House.
bold, and particularly the application of eflo.ooo
from the Droits of Admiralty for purchasing turni-
we fix his house at Brighton. In answer to this,
he aunt contend, that the expenditure at Brighton
was not greater than was consistent with the splen-
dour that properly belonged to royalty. and although
the Palace at Brighton was private property, the ex-
penditure attending it came *under the Lord Cham-
berlain's department, and ot course came under the
bend of the Civil List. The Lair way of considering
this question was, to see at what expense %the Lord
Clieseberlain could conduct the establishment for
',erste come. The Right 'Hon. Gentleman repro.
filed the expenses at Brighton as a wanton waste of
• Wel; but Gcntlernen should recollect that the,
Dice Regent must live in some country residence,
aid that with the exception of his cottage near %Vaud-
'aeir, it was the only country residence to which he
tdOid go tor recreation, and there was not a Sove.
Wien in Europe wao had so few country residences,'
. sr places of recreation as his Royal Highness; there-
fore, he would put it to the House, whether it was
IN necessary that the residence at Brighton should
k made tit tor the reception of the Sovereign, 'and
ire company he had there to visit him ? To apply
the Droits ot admiralty to that purpose was nothing
store thin it Parliament had voted an equal hum to
defray that expense. He maintained then, teat the
only excess in the Household expense was £lBO,OOO
in four years, and a great part of that went to sup-
'von the establishment of the Princess Charlotte; the
remaining excess was occasioned by the necessat
equipments belonging to royalty He should now
give the Right Hon. Gentleman some information
relative to that foreign expenditure with which he
had himself been connected ; when it would appear,
that the expense was fully warranted by the circum-
stances in which Europe was placed at the time. At
the time when he went to Vienna, Lords Stewart and
Cathcart were also there, but they did not go to
'desist him, as the Right Hon. Gentleman asserted,
lotto fill separate departments of their own ' • and
*sir establishments were necessarily attended with
'fiery great expense; and, as to his own exp?nses, he
trusted, on examination of the whole, it would be'
.Iwind they were indispensable. The whole which
i.triu in a.sy way connected with his missions amounted
to #21,000; there were three missions attended with
great exp.,..:::, and each requiring a large establi;t-
Went; h 1 twelve persons ettached to his mis-
-sisd, all e. whom were fully employed ; their Main-
tenance and travelling charges fell into the expenies
of his department . and the expense of each mis.
*let° which no splendour had been attached, amoun-
ied to eight thousand pounds. He would put it to
be House to say whether these sums were too much
fwsuch services, for so many persons for travelling,
bring at Vienna, &c. There was no information
ekich any Gentleman had ever asked -for, or any
vtiicb the Right Honourable Gentleman could wish
bit was ever refuted ; but he did not see any neces-,1
for entering into a detail of all the minute con-
tent connected with. the Royal Family. The chief
nue of• the increased expenditure of the Civil List,
as, the increase of diplomatic missions abroad ; and
k.miaceived the inquiry of last year had done every
11111 g that was necessary towards satisfying the pub-
st subject, and for the purpose of givi •in-
non to the House. He trusted the House
'tiled not indecently break into the Royal House-
bid in a way which had never been practised befOre.
Lf is had not been for the necessary equipmdnt of the
Royal Establishment, the only arrear on the Civil
List would now have been that which related to the
thfc'ereiln Ministers. He could not therefore accede to
Right Hon. Gentleman's motion.
Mr. CALCRAFT contended that no question
could be more interesting to the House or the coup.
II than the present. How, he asked, did it happen
that in all other estimates there was no variation ex-
lePt in those relating to the Household, which were
Plastantly exceeded by the actual expenditure ? and.
11.ja new course of investigation was not entered into,
re would be no end to excesses.and extravagances.
_No man ever said that the whole of the Civil List
was applicable to the personal expenses of the Crown;
!ly belonged to the whole of the Government,
ind what objection could them be to have an inveeu•
Mi. 14 nude into the other expenses I He tontende,e
'ilit'rrr, that in order to enter properly into this
Zaladtiun, it was necessary to begin at the follotan.
I lit also contended, teat it the Monarch c ...1
to
law .
receive his hereditary revenues, he would m.
UN well of as he had akiee bees by the Civil List.

e

• .
.
He had never heard of OA an ordinary ekes*.
stance ai that of advancinc it= nut Of the Drolis
of the A smiralty for a fuenioire of a house- He
.v ts mtrori.e,4 4t the conviageeei made by the Noble
lewd between the expenses of our Sovereign and the
King of Freme ; just As if this ceuntry should abet
its former systems of economy, because an enslaved
nation chose to give a, million a year to its Monarch.
For these reasons he should support the motion of his
Right Hoe. Friend. •
Mr. LONG defereied his Noble Friend from the
imputatton of having termed the teiestion uninterest
ing to the public. He had merely expressed his
apprehension that the details would eepear so to the.
House. In reply to the Honourable Gentleman who
had just s u down, and who had asked why the esti
mates of the Civil List ve.re more erroneoos than
those of the Army and Navy, he observed that the
latter were framed eve' y year, and that of the feirther
there had been but two since the accession. The
Right Hon. Geneemen had tei coed the Report of
the Committee appointed by Government to invest?.
Late the subject, an insult to the House. That
Committee was formed of himself and two Honour.
able Friends of his, in consequence of directions from
the Treasury. To rebut the charge, that they had
ueen influenced by any disposition to court fan >lir in
any quarter, he state I the suggestions which they
had made, viz. diminishing the estimates of last year,
by 139 thousaod pounds, recommending the reduce
tion of a variety minor officers in the departments
of the L net Chamberlain, the .Lord Steward, and
the Master of the H ere ; and finally proposing the
appointment of an Auditor to examine the accounts.
He always considered that there were two great,
defects in the arrangement of the Civil List. ?bet
first was, that a certain income had been .appropriate
ed to defray the charges of a variable and uncertain
expenditure. In the reign of George 11. the suns of
eight hundred thousand pounds had been fixed as .he
Civil List Revenue. If the expenditure was less than
that sum, his Maj 'sty enjoyed the surplus, but it it
exceeded it, Pauli .meat were to make gned the defi-
ciency. The case was different with his pre-e it Ma-
jesty, who nod a certain sum to defray an expenditure,
which was variable, and whish every man knee had
risen in consequence of the increased charges, and of
the advanced prices of every article of consumption.
'rite Civil List was then charged with expenses, which
were extreme!y uncertain ; among tellers, that of the
printing of the House of Cemmons, which had were
taken off in 1804, and which tnen amounted tote/20,10X
but which since had risen to a charge of 130 or 4190,000
per annum. As he had mentioned this subject, he
thought it was a fair one for the inquiry of the House.
In Ibet it was also to be considered that the charges
of Foe sign Ministers amounted onli to about 4110000.
but at preseut they were nearly £l3o,ooo.—(HeerS
kear.) —The consequence then was, that either a fixed
and atlecjeate sum should be applied to these charges,
or that application should be made to Parliament for
the surplus. The second objection to the presentH
arrangement WAS, LliAt no direct power of controul
over it was given to the House, by not 'laving it tine
der .he immediate direcoen of the responsible Minis
ters (.1 the Clown. This object was said to have bees
obtained by Mr. Burke's Bill, but though be (Mr:
Long) had every respect for Mr. Burke, he did not
think 'hat all his plans were practicable, nor could,
they be unless the income was equal to the expendia
lure. The pe.n which had been suggested by his,
Noble Friend (Castlereagh), was, in his (Mr.
Long's) opinion, the best which could.be adopted,
because it gave Parliament a proper view of hel
subject and a fair controul over the expenditure.l
It was for this reason that he objected to the
plan of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tier-
, y) because te conceived it would take away
the responsibility of Ministers. He (Mr. Long)
should also object to having a Committee with a
power of examining persons, papers, and records.
which he considered would be an innovation of the'
practice of the House. The usual practice of the
k }louse, in getting information on the subject of the
Civil List, was by address to . the Crown, on which
oceasien every information required was givens but
bet wouht.ask whether the House would delegate the'
power which it thus exercised to a Special Commit.
tee ? He had no doubt but the Right Honourable)
Gentleman who made this motion had every respect
-for the person and dignity of the Sovereign; but be
contended that if the precedent which an acquiescence,
in this motion would establish might hereafter be,
' used by persons who might wish to examine the me.
till servants of .the Sovereign, without any view to
public benefit. He concluded by repeating his ape
probation of the plan of his Noble Friend, as the oily
one which would given properventroul ever this de-
partment to the Lords of the Treainry.
Mr. C. W.,WYNNE objected to the calling on
Parliament fdr deficiencies m the Civil List, when the.
Droits of the Crown were sufficient to cover the
greater part of them. He also condemned the man-
ner of applying those Droits, which, instead of being
' expended on the Royal Palaces, which were the pro-
perty of the public, were laid out on private resi-
' Idences which might in a short time be given away
to any favourite. He contended for the necessity of
I a.Comvnittee, as it was important to know the rea-
sons on which that extraordinary minute of the "I'rea-
wry, which his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney)
had mentioned, were founded. It was important to.
know why £50,000 had been expended fur furniture
at Brighton, when according tei the declaration of the
Noble Lord (Castlereagh) last year, a great quan-
tity of furniture had been kept up in store fur future,
exigencies, and that no new expense would Wane
levered on this head. This additional expense then,
which had been since incurred, was iu violation of she'
pledge which had then been givens _and the liaise
was now called upon to sanction it. The Houobrable
Member then contended, that the House was quite
competent to examine into every part of the Civil
List, as well as any other branch of the public ,
expen-
diture, and.obaerved, that though it was necessary to
support the dignity and splendour of the Crown, it
was also necessary that in doing so, they should up-
hold those rights and privileges which had been be-
queathed to them by their ancestors. It-was no valid.
isgument against the present motions that 0o owl
resulted truaefor met Committees. The MAW,
.could consider the present state of the country, bur-,
oened as it WAS with taxes,- and should carefully irate
anise every item of the public expense; unless }bey'
tied this, they wuuld not tliiily diecharr Abair duties
to their snattitutakth

The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHE9UER.
thought the Honourable Gentleman sib° hid just sat
down, and the, Right Honourable Gentleman near
him, haig been mach misled in the view which they
had taken of the subject of the Oroitsof Admiralty.
There. was not, as had been supposed,.a balance to
exist of £277,184 that might be applied to the dis-
charge of the incumbrances of the Civil List. if that
Wm remained in hand, there were (as he skewed
(tons a paper which he read), detnands.of nista;
on it to nearly an equal amount. It was true he be-
lieved, after these claims were settled, some balance

might eventually remain, but this he did not think
would eiceedaoo,ooo. The total amoent of pay-
mentamade out of the Admiralty Droits, within the
last two years, was 4950.000; out of this sum there
had been paid, as Naval Re►vards to Captains, nearly
4450,000; to discharge claims on the Civil List,
4890,000. So out of the 950,000 here was a sum
of 4840,000 had been directly 'applied to the public
service. Besides this a small sum had been carried
to the Consolidated Fund; twenty thousand pounds
had been paid fcic repairs at Brighton, and about the
Same sum had been paid for furniture for the Princess
Charlotte, at the several places where she had resided.
The statement he had now offered might serve to
Thew, that there was little cause for jealousy on the
subject. of the application of the funds in question.
The balance in hand was not what it had been sup-
posed to be, nor was it such as to demand the consi.
detation et Parliament as to the mode in which it
might best be applied. He concluded by reminding
the House, that besides those payments to which he
had Or adverted. the sum of A 1,501.000 had been
adianced from this fund, an applied, by the direc-
tion of his Majesty, to the service of the public. * 1
Mr. I'IERNEY offered a few words in reply,
after which, the H►►uae divided.—Ayes 122—Noes
VS—Majority against the Motion 91.
When the Gallery was again opened, Lord Twe-
nties -er ►s on his legs, opposing the bringing up of
the Report ►►o the Ba►►k Restriction Bill. He conclu-
ded by moving, that the House should adjourn.
On dividing there appeared—For the Adjourn-
ment 65 -Against it 189—Majority 118.
Mr. BENNE 1"11 afterwards moved the other Or-
d -rs of the Day, with an intention of dividing the
. House, when the CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER
consented to postpone the Report of the Beek Re-
striction Bill to Wednesday.
Lord CASTLEREAGH brought in A Bill for
better regulating the Civil List, which was read a
first, and ordered to be read a second time on Mon-
day.—The other Wets of the Day were disposed of,
and at half past Twelve „'Cln►ck the House adjourned.