Star.
London, England, 1811-04-05 00:00:00

rfART PROCEEDINGS.


... . ~
.. .
- •
. • .
.a• . . •
nestedrby no fewer than seventeen thousand, a greater therefore, t doubt could not be entertained, but that. I Lord GRENVILLE was willing to acknowledge
number than was ever known on any former occasion. ' the Catholic Commit,tie .under such circumstances, I the candour and fairness with which the Noble and
This was dot 4 principally by the expedient of -ap- became an illegal meeting, within the meaning of the Learned Lord bad spoken of Mr. Secretary Pole's
Pointing Managers of Petition for the several districts Act. ' The Irish Government, evidently sheaved a 1 letter, but he could notconcur in the inferences which
in the county. This was the mode which the Catho- disposition to act with every degree of patience and that Noble and Learned Lord had drawn from the
lics.appeered to adopt, and he censured the language forbearance, and even indulgence, that could possibly statement laid down by him. He should not now go
of the document in question as unnecessarily often- be expected ; but when the mask was thiowa off, into any defbil of the arguments which might be
sive to the Catholic body. Their Meeting at Dublin, when they proceeded to the assembling a convention,. le ged on the present ocre.,ion. He voted cement
\
was characterized as an unlawful assembly ; yet upequivoreally within the meaning of the Act, it was himself- with asking whether, by the mere act 11 being
what was the result? Some civil compliments passed deemed, under such circumstances, inconsistent with present at such an assembly, without voting, or other-
' between them and the Magistratei employed by the the peace of Ireland, to have delayed interfering any wise concurring in the business of suds a met '
ieg,
Government, which was a confirmation of his aver- longer. The Government proceeded to the exercise could subject a person, to the penalties of the Act P
ment that the meeting was not illegal, if they were of its duty in the most lenient manner, and framed I The Noble and Learned Lord would not surety tare
so the Right Honot Gentleman did not do his its measures for a prospective operation: Under these
e! the affi
any man, rm ilnerttive. . Y
t et,
the by virtue of
simplMr. P e
ole's letter,
duty ;.but so it endek. and Mr. Pole took himself. circumstances and considerations, he saw nn grounly or cr beitee pie.
back again to this country. He contended that not whatever for the statement made by-the Noble Earl, sent at such an assembly, was liable to be arretwd
only the meetings of the Catholics were not contrary and therefore held it his duty to give the proposition and imprismied. Their Lnrdships livroold no doubt
to law, bet that the letter was not warranted by the a decided negative. feel themselves bound to record on their journdls their
provisions of the Act. There were other reasons for Lord HOLLAND observed, that even if he as- marked disapprobation of such an interpretation of
forming this conclusion. In the debates which took seined to every proposition leidedown by the Noble the law, and of the dangerous measure which !els
place on the introduction of the Bill into the Irish Earl who spoke last, which he was far from doing, I been grounded oil it. He could'not help cousieereg
Parliament, the then Attorney-General in answer to still Mould feel it his duty to suppprt the motion such a stretch of power as resorted to in Ireland, ass
an objection from Major Doyle, that the Bill would of his Illbble Friend. The question before them, be ' fresh preof of a disposition hostile to every measure
operate against the frequent practice of the Quakers insisted, was one not respecting the exercise of the dis- and demonstration of conciliation towards that wane
sending delegates to represent them in meetings for cretinnary power vested in the Irish Government, but ' try. When duly considered, how monstrous meet it
particular purposes, expressed his opinion that the upon the legality of those Acts which Mr. Pole re. not appear ! What, make three millions of the- fel.
Bill would not affect such delegation. Well, then, quired the Magistrates of Ireland to do, whether the low subjects liable to be arrested and impreeehe ,1
said his Lordship, there are delegates who were ex- circumstances were such as to justify, within the the will of a Secretary of Government! How wrpld
empted. A Noble Earl, then present, who was at meaning of the Act, that Gentleman in the steps he such a doctrine sound in the ears of Englielure.
the time a Member of the Irish Parliament, as Mr. bid taken ; whether, in fact, he had called upon the . How would they relish such a prectice ? Wiles ..a.
Hobart (the Earl of Buckinghamshire) also expressed Magistrates to do that which by the Convention Act, mours would be raised in England, if not dues nub
a similar opinion. He hoped, therefore, his Lord. or any other law they were entitled to do ? It was lions, but three mtated, nay, &thirty persons woe ,o
ship would act upon that opinion by his vote this necessary for every Noble Lord who should vote for be arrested, and thrown into prison—such :,, 1:1, Jul
night. The Noble Earl is concluding, strongly con-
`the motion to make up his mind to two distinct pro.. ference of opinion between the inhabitants wt: ,e
tmded for the illegality of the Circular Letter in positions—first, that the conduct of Mr. Pole with re- two parts of .the Empire—such the different trailer
question, and adverted to some instances wherein its spect to the letter in question was not justifieble ; of the law as administered respecting them !
being acted upon might be attended with lamentable and, secondly, that it was necessary for the House to ".The LORD CHANCELLOR and Lord GRENV,A .c.
effects, and where the parties so interfering.may, in come to some declaration upon it. His objection to verally explained. • .
the event of loss of lives, be found guilty respectively the proceedings of the letter now, in considering the' The. Earl of 'BUCKINGHAMSHIRE thonela
of murder, according to the construction of the Act. question before them, respected its legality, and had that Mr. Pole had been dealt miter harshly by chine,
His Lordship then concluded, by moving a Resolu- nothing to do with the concerns of its prudence. And the course of the debate. He was, however, eotind,n4
tic n for the adoption of the House, as above stated, here he felt not a little while expressing his senti- that nomeasure had been adopted by that Gentlemen,
in the commencement of his speech. The resolution ments as a Member of that House, in being obliged nor the letter in question written by him, w:thnui ~e
being read, and the question put, to speak, of a part at least, .of the Administration of advice and approbation of the Law Officers of tram&
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that what had the Duke of Richmond, one to whom he had the ho- It was therefore hard to impute to him Only ebeteeee
fallen from the Noble Mover applied almost entirely nour V being nearly related, though he had never blame-might beethought to attach to the latter, thee 1,,
to the question of the legality of the letter signed much personal acquaintance with him, in terms other no doubt, Mr. Pole, must take his due share of le . ..
by Mr. Pole. In the little with which he felt it ne- than of respect—of one, to whose administration, in sibility for the measure. As to the intention of ~ t
cessary to trouble their Lordships on the present oc- other points of view, he was happy in paying his tri. Convention Act, he could confidently say. that it % .s
cation, he should confine himself strictly to that point. bute of gratitude and applause for its moderation, atotievelled against the body of the Roman
ands
che
The Noble Earl, no doubt, had completely satisfied prudence, and mildness. He felt, therefore, not a 'but was passed at the close of a Session,.hic.
himself that the letter was illegal, consideted with little in being thus called upon to express in an un directed against the meetings of the United frieen ,
reference to the Act ; but he doubted whether the qualified manner his objections to the letter of a Mi- .from which improper proceedings were to be epi,;.
'Noble Earl would succeed in satisfying any other nister so nearly connected with that Noble person— hended at that time.
Lord in the House of the truth of his position ; which a letter which certainly called upon the Magistrates Lord GRENVILLE disclaimed any intention
was, as he took it, that the meetings which that letter of Ireland to actin a way they were not authorised by treating Mr. Pole with harshness or disrespect.
evidently had in contemplation, were not illegal meet. the laws of their country. The Act in question con- ! would be an end to all responsibility, and Parli.ie
ings upon a fair construction of the Act of Parlia- tained two clauses—by the first, persons sitting in an itself would be completely useless, it no respon•i: •
• ment referred to. This was the true state of the unlawfnl assembly under that Act, may be proceeded were to attach to a person for any measure which - , I
question. lii considering this, their Lordships would against in a particular manner. The officers were bore his signature, and thus openly avowed the a,
have to consider the objects of the Act in question. authorised to call upon such unlawful meeting to dis- bation and sanction of such measure by the pia , 1
It was framed under very particular circumstances perse, not to commit or hold them to bail ; but, in who adopted it.
by the Irish Parliament, and to prevent, in future, case of resistance, and in that case only, they were 1 Lord HOLLAND deelaredhimselftothesameeffst.
what took place on fcirmer occasions, namely, a con- authorised to apprehend the person so resisting. The The LORD CHANCELLOR again expialatd,
vention, purporting to represent the Irish people, or Noble Lord (Holland) next observed upon the second and said, that surely nothing could be more I..reies
any class of them, with a view to obtain alterations clause. Would it be contended, that the mere act of from his mind than to make any unhandsome allesiea
in think established in Church and State. The par- attending such an assembly as that referred to in Mr. to the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, for whose estime
ocular circumstances which gave rise to the Act were Pole's letter was an offence, for which a man might ble qualities as a man and a judge he had ever enter-
well known. With respect to the question, how far be held to bail, or arrested ?' Might not the proceed- tained the highest respect.
such conventions of delegates would or would not be ings against the seven Bishops be justified on the same Lord STANHOPE, in reply, thanked the Noble
illegal by the common law of Ireland, without the ground ? This would be a false interpretation of the and Learned Lord on the woolsack, for the canker
introduction of such a statute, he would not presume law ; and he would affirm, with Lord Camden, that and fairness which he had displayed that night. It
to give an opinion. But, he knew, that by the course the present case would not be law, unless it was made had saved him from the trimming which he (Lorer
d
of all Parliamentary proceedings, there may be some law by the statute. These positions he had illustra- Stanhope) had prepared or any oth
few casual exceptions, from special circumstances, ted and enforced on a recent occasion, when he had Lawyer attempted to hold a different language, he
to what he was about to state ; but, by the general the honour of addressing their Lordships, on the sub.; should have given that Laywer a complete basting.
course of proceeding, no petitions could be regularly ject of informations Ex Officio. It could not be de. He rejoiced in having brought forward the Kesel
received in Parliament, except from the individuals vied that there was much rashness and temerity in i motion. It bad drawn from the Noble and Leered
signing them, except in cases where the petitions came issuing the letter signed'by the Secretary for Ireland;i motel many useful confessions ; and it had dome
from Corporate Bodies. A striking instance of this and it the bad consequences had resulted from iteo ; from his two Noble and distinguished Friends (Lords
occurred not long since in their Lordships' House, which, under the circumstances of the case and of the!, Grenville4nd Holland) the -soundest d
was,octrinerefoes, eel
from a body of not less importance than the Livery moment, ell- might have given eke, eer. pole would, the most appropriate observati. thr;
of London. The petition he adverted to, purported to have been responsible for those consequences. He determined to take the sense of the House upon the
be signed by the Lord Mayor, Aldermen. and others, had no hesitation in declaring that his conduct on , motion.. It was to etrength of argument lie 100 p..,
in behalf of themselves and the Livery of London, that occasion was improper and culpable. It was a and not to strength of numbers.
when the House was of opinion it was not competent conduct which if it did not stir up the people, it at 1 The House then divided—Contents 6—Non-Cee.
to be received, but as the petitions of individuals sign- least tendedto stir up the Magistrates, to a degree of • teats 21—Majority against it 15.—Adjourned at 9.
ink', and no others. The object of the Bill in ques- mischievous and dangerous activity. While, bow. HOUSE OF COMMONS.
_—,-
lion, Was to declare by an Act, that such meetings ever, he condemned the spirit which dictated, and
were illegal ; and he believed, that were they to ran- the language
in which the letter was drawn up, he Mr. Sorrow (Dublin) presented a Neutron front the Debturt is
i the Four Courts Marshahea, Dublin, praying reuet.—Orc....l
sack the collection of Statutes to find an Act that en- would not thereby involve the whole of the Irish Go- to lie on the table.
deavoured to include every possible case, he did not vernment in an indiscriminate censure. He must do ! The Depaiy Usher of the Black Rod required the atten.lir:e
think that any act could be found so effectual as the justice to the moderation and impartiality which has ! of the lioiee ie the House of Lord% to bear the Lloyd Awn&
one before them. None of their Lordships could uniformly marked the conduct of his Noble relative, , given to certain Bills.
i On his return, the SPEAKER informed tke Hew, tz.! be
think that the obvious meaning of the Act could be (the Duke of Richmond) since he has been placed at 1 bad heard the
Royal Assent given by Commi.sion to tar C.. 6.-•
got rid of by a mere change of name, or that such the head of that Government ; but their Lordships , stercial Credit 111111,4r.c. (for which see the Lor,b.)
would in the least alter the view of the question.— would do well, while they made this just exception, I
From the language express of the Act, it must be not to pass unnoticed and uncensored the inconside. Mr. LOCKHART obtained leave to bring in a Bill to enillt
the Governors of the. Royal Naval Asylum to put chase Lari.'. li.
the benefit of that institution.
.considered that all persons under whatever name ap- rate and dangerous interpretation of the Iwhichl daw la :
pointed, acting as delegates, were the purposes con- that night been set up as a justification of the conduct The Committee en the Parish Practice Bill wu postiion.ii It
tbe.Sd cf May.
templated in the Act ; that would fbrm a Conven- of the Secretary of the Irish Government, in issuing ,
,lion under its fair and obvious meaning. If so, could such a letter as that to which the attention and repro- On the motion of Sir SAMUEL RON:ILLY, die third tth!.
ing of the Bill for preeentin,g robbery In a dwelling-La-e:e
1,3
there remain a doubt that when a circular letter was bation of that House had been so properly directed .
furfiice dprfrovr
enting Monday,
p; ‘ and: a y the Report of the Coconut:en on t ii .. I
sent round from Dublin, avowedly to a certain des- by his Noble Friend. • 1 canals, and to bleachirz grounds in England, and in irzl.tatl,e-crc
stealing in situps, stealing ro nay
~ e
.cription of persons in the different counties, calling The LORD CHANCELLOR entered into a va- Postponed till r
to.
prevemonting Deenntesling was read a *mind init,
rrow.
upon them to elect or appoint persons to act for them riety of atgumts en to justify the general tenor of the Bill fo
' and committed toe Monday.-'
in the Committee in Dublin, that it was in every view letter ; though he was willing to confess that in some : Al\ isb.l.l.oß of the EXCHEVERporponel •!•e
The CH ' •
a convention, as contemplated by the Act? It was parts of it, the words were somewhat slovenly got Committee
in tbe 011 ther Dibtillery Bonnecteill till Moway,
dthist ere kin, • • ,
therefore justly conceived that such a species of Par- together. The Contention Bill, to which such ire- alterationsregulations cd with D, i.i,•
Fitment should not be suffered to be held ; he must quent reference had been made, had not in its view was bis wash to introduce.
ons that t' rr
A Message (rain the Lords !Armed the Comm .
4,t
,„.
then say, with respect to the circumstances under the Catholics of Ireland. It' had in contemplation
~./-erdsluils bee ag read to the No.wieli Rand BlU,audsever l'. • 1
which the affair took place, there could not in effect the assembling of any description of persons oho 1. Mr. Russell, iron the Stamp Mice, produced swot nt, • i
arise any other difference of opinion than what arose met together for the purpose of electing others who ,the exemptions of
toFram:es, from the duties on. ,t.0..,-.-s
respecting the exercise of the discretionary power with were to interfere in Matters of Church and State. It ! which were "clued ° tie ("le table'
which the Government of Ireland was invested.— was the nature and intention of such meetings that IRISU TONTINE ACT. •
'From what fell from the Noble Earl, it may be in. made them legal or illegal. It mattered not under el
Sir J. SMITH, atlreeibly ta the intimation
ferret! that any illegal body may go very near the what denomination they were known ; whether dole- he yesterday gave, moved for Lists of Survivors ee
der the Irish Tontine Acts of Geo. 111, for 177 e
wind, when by artifice or contrivance it kept out of gates, managers, or any other. They would take •
the letter of the lase.
. A question might also arise (their character from their mode of proceeding. Tithe • 1774; 1775, and the Accounts of the last two yet. .
as to the extent to which an evil should be suffered to 1 assembly which these delegates or managers proposed I Me'
FOSTER said, the .present motion ;N. '. •:.
such a broad field of discussion, that he' deohtea
run, as to its existence in a small degree, or its pro- to elect was an unlawful assembly, so would the as- encroach on the aof the House, I:^m.,
ceeding to an alarming length, with reference to the sembly he which should elect them. The elected or
the number of minute p
atiencee and particular st :vie:.
period when it became the duty of Government to appointed, according to the nature of the object for
interfere, in order to preserve the tranquillity of the which they should have been chosen, communicated letlica the elucidation of it would require. rev e w:,
• i
'country. It was a question of prudence on the part i the legality or illegality of their meeting to the body many nit the annuitants of the same name e!l ;.
''of the Government of Ireland, how far, as well as !electing them. Such was the interpretation of the another, which would create a confusion above the c .
At what period it should put the law in force ? whe- ' law upon which the letter proceeded ; and he could
\pecity of the House to remedy. The onlyvvey wh .f.
appeared to him that s ic'i a motion cou.o ..• .1.7.
titer it might be preferable to let the matter die away, not consider it as. improper, much less. as rash and
upon, would be to ten I: T all the officers, well 1...
I-too-that the parties were left in a situation that no min. dangerous. When he applied the term slovenly to
chief tOtild be done. But that question was at an end the letter of Mr. Pole, he by books and regulations, and examine the-whole it
1 no means 'tittle • Jed to
the moment it was proposed further to extend the , impute any blame to that Gentleman. The fault was Select Committee. -
body, by a county representation, by delegates sent i not with him: Perhaps little - •
a more core ane caution Mr. THOMPSON s aid, so loosely *Was -*
from every county in Ireland, to do that under the \ in the drawing of ithave removedall
up might
circumstances of a petition which had been previously !for cavil ; at least it might have saved many of the wheth to five the c rsiticetes or not, a, •
agreed to; therefore the only legitimate purpose of ,observations which had d
Pt °tram unnecessarily the
Os pain was over. Upon this pit of the subject, present discussion. the existence of those p ople who were, 1e• .:
years sof age in 1775, It would be tuoic ;....,

nominate a Committee, and have the papers and
evidence to fActs laid before them.
Mr. FOSTER acceded to the nomination of a
Committee.—After some conversation between Sir J.
&In u, Mr. VANSITTARC, and Sir J. NEWPORT, the
motion was agreed to, and A Committee appointed to
examine into the Tontine Annuities, &c. &c. and re-

port the same.
ARMY orsecams' PAT AND PERQUISITES.
General GASCOYNE rose,- agreeably to the in-
timation which he had formerly given, of moving for
a Committee to take into consideration the present
state of the pay and allowances of the,officers in the
British army. He felt much regret, that so very ne-
cessary a motion had fallen into hands so unable as
his to perform it well :bathe regretted more that his
aistjest)'s Ministers had not felt it their duty.to make
such a motion long before. and hindered him from so
arduous an undertaking. They certainly ought to
have felt the urgency for increasing the soldiers' pay,
'which had made no progress equal to the rapid in-
crease of the necessaries of existence. He was satis-
fied that his Royal Highness the Prince Regent
would be friendly to such a measure, possessing as
he did the-feelings of his Royal father, with all the
military ardour of his ancestors—he was convinced
his Royal Highness telt much interest in the army,
and were the proper representation of their wants
once made to him, he could- not entertain a doubt
but that amelioration.would (tallow. He would now
come to the print at whichhe aimed. But he felt it
necessary to call the attention of the House to the
e aiparison of the old and present times, of the pay
and perquisites of the officers of the British army...—
The first military establishment was made in the year
1614; the pay of a private soldier then, according
to D-. Davenant, was 6d. per day. The officers pay
was formed from that estimate—the Ensign was in-
creased six times above that of a private, being 3s.
per , day • the Lieutenant's pay was 4s.- and the Cap-
gin's Bs. The Major was paid as.C.aptain, with the
additional pay of Major-above it, and so on with the
other superior officers.. That state of soldiers' pay
continued to the Revolution, when William'amid Mary
ascended the throne, and regulations were then made
for an increase of pay and an allowance of perquisites.
In the correspondence which passed between Robert
Harley, afterwards Earl of Oxford, and his Majesty
King William, preserved' in the Harleian library;
and- which he (General Gascoyne) had consulted,
were found several perquisites and allowances to the
Officers—among which were the privilege to an Of-
ficer of taking a private soldier from the line, and
employing him as servant ; that privilege was soon
taken.away, and a compensation equal to the value
of the'servant was allowed. The pri,portion of the
ply of Officers, he would now slew to the House,
drawn from the year 1695 and the year 1811. In
1695, the of a Lieutenant-Colonel was 17s. per
dy, liable to no deduction& In 1811, he has 17s. per
day, liable to the deduction of the income tax. A
Major, in 1695, bad 16s. per day, without deduction
—in 1811, he bas 16s. per day, which, with Income
Tax deduction, is only 14e. d. Captains, in 1695,•
had pay of 10s. per day, in 1811 he has only i195.64,'
liable to the Income Tax. A Lieutenant's phy was
6s. 6d. per day, it was the same now, but the tax re-
duced it to ss. l id. The pay of an Ensign was ss. sd.
it continued so still, but reduced by the tax to 45.114.
These statements made it very obVious to the House
how little the condition of the Officers was bettered
since the Revcilution ! On the perquisites which
then belonged to thd Officers, he meant to call the
attention of the House. ' When a regiment was to be
filled up to the strength of the War Establishment,
and when recruited to the extent required, the sur-
plus was divided among the Officers. In the year
1746, the non-effective fond was inquired into, and
the Committee stated in their proceedings, that the
stock purse was a most pernicious and injurious sys-
tem, and which they wished were abolished. No far.
they notice was taken of it until 1766, when precau-
tions were taken to prevent false musters. On the ex-
amination of witnesses, fhb money which came to
the Officers from the stock purse, was greater than
what even the Court was willing to admit ; and
it ako appeared from the examination of a paper
belonging to the Committee of Officers, that all
the balances of money belonging to the recruiting
parties was divided among 'the Officers, when the
regiment was established to its strength. At the
close of the American War, the Stock Purse was abo-
lished. Without giving any compensation or perma-
nency for the loss sustained, they were told there was
the prospect of a long peace, and were allowed a di-
vidend of 420 apiece instead ail stock purse. The
regiments were reduced to 400 men, and some so low
as 300. The facility of raising recruits, and the sug-
gestions of a long peace, lulled them asleep, and
. blunted the edge of their remanstrance ; they hoped
that their former perquisites would come back when
the whole strength was raised on the War Establish-
Silent. He would not take upon him to decide whe-
ther that the allowance of £2O was a compensation
equal to the abolition of an old-established perquisite
or not; but he certainly would have deemed it fitting
that the proportion of ‘2O for 20 men should have
been raised and continued progressively, according
to the rapid advance of the thief requisites of exist-
ence. lie remembeied of a Bill being brought in for.
the Abolition of all Fees and Perquisites of the
Custom-house ; but there was a clause made wherein
it was stated how these fees and perquisites had been
of tang use and Vont, and were become just and
equitable by their long standing. Unfortunatelyalich
a clause as that.was not introduced- into the Bill
which abolished the stock purse. If the • sdesiroying
of established practices hi the House of Ciistoms
seemed dangerous-and demanded compensation, cer-
tainly the Offices of the Army have equal justice to
demand satisfaction for an abolition which has been
so h.wmful to their income. When the House had
found, from his statement, that the Officers' pay was
higher in 1695'than in 1811, they would certainly
deem it preper to pay some attention to ameliorate
their situation, by allowance of perquisite or increase
of pay. They might argue that they had increased
the Officers' pee,. but it alias an increase which took
away witheone hand what it gave with the ether.—
The Captain's salary was increased three halfpence;
but there came a tax which swept away the shilling,
and rely the halfpenny additional remained. The
application of the income tax took away all the new
augmentation.seflich they had received, and more.—
He did not mean to censure the income tax ; but in
its application to the army it was certainly misjudg-