Star.
London, England, 1811-01-05 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

•te sal
of the

c Under tVr tenOciehtioe. tile frothily
. emit proceedings were similar to those which
_.bled on a former occasion of the like melanchtly
nature. There was no example whatever, he abrerverj, '
in the history of the country, save in two iustats*,
which may be regarded as species of usurpallisisn,
where the individual appointed to the head of the Goii
eernment as a Regent, was hot, in some way ar
other, limited or restrained. It seas a general prin.
eiple, pervading the whole history of the country, that
to all cases where the States of the Realm acted uposl
the exigencies of the moment, the person upon who.
the Government of the country, as Regera, was coo.,
ferred, was circumscribed or restrained. This was it,
principle and practice, proceeding upon grounds isd
established upop principles founded in the naturessa4
original principles of the Constitution. Upon this'
principle their ancestors proceeded I it was founiledi
in truth, and upon the principles of universal just
and with a just regard to the inestimable Constitution
of the country. This principle of constitutional dis-
tinction between the situation of the King and that
of Regent was every where apparent. The King
held all his rights and powers for the benefit of the
people—the King, top, it should be considered, had
a permanent interest in these rights and powers—
a Regent, on the other hand, was a person called
upon to exercise these rights temporarily fur an-
other—a Regent had therefore only a temporary
interest in the powers vested in him. This consti-
Ituted a bread distinction—the difference betsireee
`permanent rights and powers, and temporary powers.
It was in this view also to be considered, that the
permanent interest attaching to the individual who
wears the Crown affords a considerable degree of
security against these rights add powers, while the
temporary interest which the Regent alone possessed
may be considered as some degree of temptation
to the abuse of these powers' there was the differ-
ence of security afforded by the consideration of per-
manent over that of temporary powers. The tempo-
rary powers of Regents always afforded, more or less,
a subject of conaitutional jealous!. The principle
upon which their ancestors acted was, that while they
provided for the present, they were not forgetful of
the future, and they always bore in mind, the con,
sjderation of the resumption of the legitimate audio,
rity of 'the Sovereign. ['non these general prim:4
pies, every instance of Regency had hitherto beep
founded in this country, and the Jame principle
obtained whether the Throne wps temporarily titt,
occupied or fall, or where such measures nviginatr
ed in full Parliament of King, Lords. and Cum.
mons. While contending for this principle, he adr
mitted, that a considerable difference hod At drffer,
ent time; prevailed as to the mode in which ouch
principles were carried into execution ; hut what.
ever the mode was, whether by the intervention of
a Council, as a controuling power, or by the tem.
porary suspension of the royal power, still the prig.
hiple of restriction obtained, Whatever degree of
difficulty might appear, from a view of the words
e administering the Government of the Country,"
as appealing upon the Jporitals, he believed it was
never. yet intended that by ;loch investiture, all the
prerogat'ves of the Crown alipuld be given to the
Reg( nt• This pbsrAvation ha more especially app
plied to the li; ResolutiOo. with respect to the ova..
ties' of Peers, he co;410 slot think such a power was meant
to be conferred isy these words. This principle guided
the prec'edent 41788, whatever variation there might
be, arose horn the difference of circumstances in the
two cases. Heeertainly thought that with regard to
the power in the question of War and Peace, and in
some matters of a similar nature, no restriction Ar li-
mitation would be expedient, as upon these grounds
the superintending controul of Parliament, as pre-
scribed by the Constitution, was a sufficient restroint.
Any farther restraints than those proposed would be,
he thought, to embarrass Government, and tend to do
away the practical good arising f rom the constitutional
formation of the executive the same principle applied
to all the great officers of the State, but the whole
should' be arranged under the contemplation that the
power was revocable by the King on the riiismption
or reassunsption of his royal authority. Its such a
case as that before them, and where the limitations
were intended but for a definite period, there did not
exist the necessity for creating such a body in the
State as a Council to restrict the powers of the Regent.
Here, as in all former cases, they were called upon to
regard the peculiar circumstances of the case. They
should bear in mind, that the exercise of the powers
so constituted should be temporary only, and also not
to forget the probability that existed of the resumption
of that power by the lawful Sovereign. He observed,
agent, that the whole system now under considera- '
tem proceeded, as in the case of 1788, upon two
great leading facts ; First, the personal incapacity
of the Sovereign to exercise his royal functions.; and,
secondly, the probability which existed, and even
the confident expectations entertained of the recovery
of the Sovereign, so as to enable him to resume the ex-
ercise of those functions. Upon these grounds the
whole should be considered ; and, upon every 1111*
principle, it should be held, that, although some dif.
ferent opinions as to modes may obtain, still the gene,
ral principle upon which all such measures were found.
ed, was the same. The extent of the application may
be different, but in the principle itself there was uo
difference. In the present ease, whatever Variation
obtained, it arose only out of the different circum-
stances of the country. On these he deemed it unne-
cessary to enter into any detail, and on this ground
whatever variation from the principle of the . prece-
dent of 1788 tuck place, of course, proceeded ;
whatever difference there may be in the term of li-
mitation, there was none in the temporary princi-
ple, and regard was had hr both to the probable re-1
sumption of power by his Majesty. In looking to I
what was the decision of Parliament on the impor-
tant occasion so often alluded to, he could net avoid
referring to the characters of these great men 'Who
took part in these discussions. At the same time
he must observe, that some of these great characters,.
in the course of these proceedings, were Most tie-
justly, and most unnecessarily aspersed. He spoke
in reference to one more especially, who took the
lead in the former proceedings, whose reputatiti‘
whose fame, whose credit in the country, was fou
..
ed iu no small degree upon the plurious part Asir t
in these very proceedings. Instead of the way
which such characters had been referred to, they
should logk upon their efforts with deference, and
build upon the foundations they had laid, rather OM
upon new ideas, hastily or inceasiderately istsoducesi.

NOUSE OT LORDS, JANIIAItY 4.
The Earh of CY/Mt:4OON and MOR AT, the latter as Baron

lite* art of Castle Sietrart. took the Oaths and their Seats.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (in the absence of bit Noble
Friend the Earl of Liverpool) presented the Documenla ordered
yeeterd,ll, on the motion or the Noble Secretary u( State, touch-
ing certain issues of Publit Money.
The House dap adjourned for some time, during pleasure; on
Its muffling, and previous to the Order of the Day being entered
wpm, a crinversideou took place on tha topic to which the above-
Meld toned rapers referred, via.

• •

_
Issues Os woxer.
Earl SPENCR.- expressed his wish to know what
itoirse or line of proceeding the Noble Secretary of
State meant to propose, relative to the Documents
just presented
The Earl of LIVERfOOL observed, that at pree
sent it was proposed only that the Papers should lie
on the table, and that they should be printed. He
adverted vi the very important subject which stood
as tie Order the Day, and which was at present
the regular a.-•d proper topic for the attention of their
Lordships.
Earl SPENCER did not wish any explanation or
detail from the Noble Secretary, which might lead to
a discussion, or take off the attention of their Lord-
ships from the order of the day. He only wished for
some general information as to the manner in which
it was proposed to proceed, from which might be col-
should be given.
.RPOOL had no objection to
.neral statement as the Noble Earl
submit the subject to the consider-
.,-morrow. At the same time
. from any thing that would-tend
proposed discussion. The cones-
would appear in the Papers, re-
,keii relative to the issue and
of the public money. These
Imstances of pecnliar difficulty,
Government were placed. To
to form a judgment of the
idence was laid before them.
proceedings upon the subject,
,:onsider that these• more pecq.
another qua•ter. From the dr.!
exigency of the occasion, how-
, his dUty to submit a resolstion,
tothorise the issue of the money--
iqestion from the conduct of his
At on the occasion, whether right
was ready to enter into discus-
`: circumstances required that
taken without delay.
After a few words from Earl SPENCER,
.4
The .Earl of MOIRA observed, that, as far is he
Understood the case, it was one of peculiar exigency,
involving, however, the question of Ministerial con-
duet. He had us) objection to the proceeding COR-
tecrtplAted by the Noble Secretary, with a tacit corn-
y-am that if the question Should he considered' as
only referring to the necessities of the public ser-
vice, al to the degree of criminality or culpability, if
sniy, Which existed in the conduct of Ministers on the
dtcasion. it was a distinct 'consideration, and its dis-
etission might he kept separate from it.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he had admitted
that the subject involved two distinct questions, that
which was fitting or necessary for the public serv:ce,
and the other, how far his Majesty's Government
were justifiable in their relevant conduct? What he
should propose to-morrow would respect the former
necessary consideration, and not involve the justifica-
tion iilluded to.

. .

Lord GRENVILLE briefly observed, that some
difference may arise respecting the mode in which this
should be dune.
Their Lordships then proceeded to the Order of the
Day, which being read, the House resolved into a
Committee on the
IsTATI OF THN NATION.
. Lord WALSINGuAsi in the Chair.
The Resolutions communicated at the late confe.
rence, (and which appeased at length in our Paper of
yesterday), were then read.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL then rose, and said,
'
that before he entered regularly upon the iris,
portant subject before the Committee, be begged
leave to say a few word; upon a point which appeared
to him necessary, as a preliminary consideration. Ho{
wished it to be understood, in the first instance, and'
which he thought should be laid down as a general
prioeiple, so far as governing the debate, that what-
over might be said, should not, by any construction,
boitsterpreted as any disrespect or want of personal
delicacy to the Illustrious Personage, whom they all ,
agreed, was t_.be proper person to be invested with the
high functions which seemed so prominent a part of
their Lordships' consideration that night. It was on
public grounds, sad on these alone, that this great
question, involving io many important considerations,
ebould be discussed. It was on great and general
principke only, that a subject involving the high 1
u ogative of the Crown should be discussed. This
rinciple pervaded all Parliamentary discussion ;
iwas
_not the conduct or personal considerations '
011,he4odieidgal who wore the Crown that was re-
gularly the topic under discussion: it was the
senduct of those who were the advisers of the
Crowe. and responsible for the acts of Govern-
!Pent, that was the due topic under consideration.—
It was a ma=in ef our Constitution that the King
Could do no wrong; the conduct of Ministers was
itsn point regularly at issue ; and on this ground he I
would ask it of their Lordships, that the same prin.
siple should be universally held to apply, in the dis.
eussien of that night also, to the person, whoever he
may be, invested with the Royal Authority ;it r-as a
principle, indeed, which ought generally to apply to
'
p4aliameptarydiscussion of the measures of Go-
moment. Nothing of personal consideration to that
ilaalttii pent:wag. but as referring to the conduct of
the. upon whosf advice he acts. This was a prin.
siple which be wished to have distinctly understood in
the outset ; aed the system which had hitherto pre-
sr4ded in 41 discussions of the legislature, he asked,
should be considered as prevailing on the present oc-
elisiont and that nothing which fell from Noble Lords
le freely discussieg this important subject, should by
construed into a want of delicacy, or failure -in
personal respect to the Illustrious Personage -oo
'closely connected with chit subject.--(liter, Ater,
hew, from all sides of the Committee.)—Having
presented this Oisuidetation, be begged leave to
call the attention of their Lordships to the immedi-

e—What degree Of teriitton ekisted Pt+teetied, he !Went to ektie With sittgont- all the otter duties mid
words(' repeat, upon the varied circumstances of the functions of the Sovereign—when you would have
times ; and in this Sieve of the ease, the duration of him call in every individual for his best exertions in
the restrictions especially -e-AS calculated. With re- his conntry's cause—you would strip him of the means
firms to this point, it Would not be improper to res of rewarding those eteitions, while you would he.
Mind their Lordships, that the great stand made in pose upon him all that was harsh, ungracious, and
that House was upon the questioh for the insertion severe in.the discharge of the royal functions. The
of the words " for a time to be limited :" and it was Regent should have to execute every thing that was
upon these words the question was then taken, and odious and ungrateful in the eiercise of the royal an.
which chewed the point upon which the strongest diffe- thOeity, while you would d: spoil his authority and
since of opinion then existed. What he had said more prerogative of every thing that WAS winning, gracious, .
particularly applied to the subject of the three first Re- and benign. It could not he a new observatine '
solutions. Upon the fourth he thought it unnecessary to their Lordships that the British., Constitution e
then to trouble their Lordships with ;my observations; consisted of three branche 3. and that is the recipro.
but upon the fifth he had some remarks to make, He cal action and re-action of these three estates re.
was aware, in considering this, of the difficulty arising
.suited the whole beauty of the edifice. The two
from the cherige of cif cumstances in the case ;on this Houses were now called upon to fill up the deficience
paint, however, it appeared to be generally agreed, which has so unfortunately occurred in the till' A
that the household should be separated from the ge. estate ; and if they should deprire it of its due weight
neral administration of the government of the coup- and interest in theereneral system, what mast become
try, and to place it in the hands of her Majesty. It of its equilibrium and mutual controul ? The power .
would follow that every part of the household at. of creating Peers is one of the chief eontrouls nt the,
tached to the sacred person of his Majesty, and under Crosen ; and if you take it away, where is the busted
these circumstances, therefore, it followed, that the balance of our coma:in:line' system? Their Lred: '
household should be placed in the same hands. He ships were now indeed :tending on tins wreck of tits
was aware of the objections formeily.mede to this at. Constitution, without a rudder to guide it amidst lei
rangement, and to these the same elutetions applied. rocks and shoals with which it was encompaisedeee .
In this part of the subject he admitted there was only The Noble Marquis next argued against the pro
a choice of difficulties. It was, however, usual, to restrictions with regard to his Majesty's house-to
consider the household establishment as a mere mat- What particelar service could they now be engaged in
ter of State, and as having little or nothing to do with with regard to his Majesty? They were tor the present 4
the domestic comforts of the Sovereign—but that was incapable of rendering any service to the King. But
by no means the case. Though, as was known, the it liee been said that on his Majesty's recovery, hie
far greater number of individuals attached to the complete recovery he hoped, it would be painful to
' Royal person, were appointed by the superior officers, his Majesty to find that those who had usually beci
yet the whole, as a system, tended more or less to the about his royal *son should have been removed...-.
domestic comforts and coeveniencies of his Majesty, Surely this seas paying no very Clawing cosuplimeat ,
and was not merely to be considered as a matter of to the royal mind. Whit would it imamate out this, '
State. He was at a loss to see how the system could that on his Majesty's recovery, instead if anxiously
be separated from the Royal person, even considering inquiring whet detriment might have been suffered
that degree of dignity and splendour which should at- by the Constitution, what intermediate evils might •
tech to• Majesty, in the moments of great personal af- have befallen the country, his Majesty's solicitude
tiiction, In considering this important part of the would be whnile engrossed by enquiries respecting '
Resolutions, they should bear in mind what was pro- i the Officers of his Household ? But this was not all.
' vided in case the Royal indisposition should conuntle, The restrictions, it seems, were to last but a year,
and their best hopes in that respect not realised, but, and then Perliement might see whether they should
1
contemplating the much wished-for recovery, no alte- not he farther prolonged. What a state was this,
ration in this respect should be made. On this ground then, to which you would-degrade the Royal Author
his Lordship argued, and with much feeling confers. rity ! You would obit-rye in what manner, during
sled, that no alteration should be made in the resoiu. the course of the year, the Regent had acted in hie
tion as originally framed ; he had with reference to administration of public affairs, and then you would
personal feeling, not only to urge but to implore their calf him again to your bar, and examine why the re-
Lordships to that effect—to prevent the possibility of strietions in his authority should not be further C'lll.
their Sovereign, should he happily be restored to his tinued, or why. his prerogatives might not be further ,
subjects within the interval of seeing his household ' curtailed : for where can you be said to stop, after
new-rpedelled, his 'faithful servants detached from what has already been proposed ? There was really
bites bit domestic arrangements broken in upon, and something absurd in the proposition before their
find himself placed among a species of strangers in Lordships. There was no hesitation in giving to the
his own family.—(Hear, hear.)ln every point of I Regent the management of the navy, of the army, and
view which he could take of it, he thought their Lord. , of all the commercial relations ofille country ; over
'hips could not consistently agree to the Reselution ; these, it seems, he may exercise tie most unlimited au.
sent up to them from the Commons, and he trusted ' dimity, but over the Houshold he must have no con.
they would with him see the propriety of restoring it troul. The Regent may make peace or war, bet he
to the shape in which it orignaily stood. He ills. must not make Peers or grant sinecures. Upon this
claimed vain on whatever he said, more especially on paint only do Ministers seem to feel any alarm. As
this part of the subject, any thing which may he con.; to the various precedents that have been adduced in
sieered as actuated by motives of jealousy against the suppers of this doctrine, and of these measures, they
Illustrious Persons implicated in this part of the sub- are drawn chiefly ftom cases of minors, and have no
I ject. Her Majesty, he was confident, felt no other fair application to a case of full maturity and hew
wish than that in common with all whom he addres- eepetiince and observation. There was therefore only
sod, for the recovery of her Illustrious Consort, attest- the precedent of 1788, on which this sole question was
tied with all those circumstances which must be pie. to rest. Of that precedent he should only say that it
fying in the supremest degree to her own personal was imperfect and incomplete. It stood recommended
feelings, and to the wishes and interests of the country only on the grounds of expediency ; and were the
at large. Towards his conclusion, the Noble Earl grounds let-expediency which recommended it in 1788,
dwelt with great eloquence and pathos on these topics, now to be recommended in 1811? Must we forget all
and conjured their Lordships not, in moments of se. the great events that passed since that period, and the
vere personal affliction, to abandon the rights of their important consequences which they have produced t
Sovereign, a Sovereign who, during the long coerce Has the Constitution suffered nothing from the
of his long and prosperous reign, never separated his overwhelming influence that has ::risen from the
interests and happiness from those of his subjects and French Revolution, is not more care, more vi.
his country, or never omitted to make any sacrifice glance, more energy, more activity necessary, now
which he thought would tend to the happiness, the to upheld it, and maintain the extensive interests
honour, and the prosperity of his kingdoms. of this Great Empire than at any former time
On the question being put on the hrstßesolution, —Yet such is the moment when it is proposed to
The Earl of CARLISLE rose, and in a short &trickle and . curtail that power by which that in.
speech expressed his disapprobation of the line of con- I creased vieilence, energy, and care, are to be exer.
duct pursued by Ministers en the present occasion.— I cised. When the attack of foreign enemies is to be
Referring to sense historical allusions which were repelled, when internal discontent is to be eontrouled,
made on a former night, he contended that the intl. you would withdraw from him on whom you impose
rences to be deduced therefrom were different from all these arduous tasks. the means of accomplishing
the conclusions advanced by Noble Lords on the Mi- the objects you would require at his hands. You
nisterial side of the House ; and, in the course of his . would bare supported the edifice of the State, yet you
observations, paid his tribute of applause to some would cut away the ground on which it most stand.
prominent parts in she ministerial character of Mr. Pitt. If their Lordships were not prepared tens to expose
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE declared, that he the means oldie safety of the country, yet they would
' felt it to be his duty to negative, is Bruits, the prin. concur in the amendment Which he now moved. The
ciple on which was hinged the propriety of imposing Noble Marquis then concluded with moving to leave
restrictions and limitations on the Regent. It was a out that part of the Resolution beginning with the
doctrine unknown to the law, unauthorized by the words " subject to such restrictions, limitations."
Constitution, and the practice which it was built upon etc. etc.
was daily becoming more dangerous to the interests Lord SIDMOUTH rose and said, he would not
of the State, and the security of the Constitution. If on this occasion refuse to take his feelings as his guide
he had not misread the book of that Constitution, it on part of his way ; they could not be the worst guides
taught him to believe that the Crown and its Prero. on such a question. It was not necessary to dwell
.getites were a trust granted for the good of the peo. long on the preof of what was i maxim in the law of
i pie, and not for the personal benefit of the King.— every country ; " That all power not withheld from
That the powers vested in the Crown were intended the people by law, or immemorial usage, was the
to enable the Sovereign to discharge the functions of right of the people." On the occasion of the King's
the kingly office for the advantage of the nation over incapacity, the right of providing for the competence
which he ruled, and that those powers should be in of the executive reverted to the two Houses of Par.
proportion to the difficulties which he might have to Bement. The House of Peers had suspended their
encounter in the due discharge of these functions.— , proceedings from day to day and week co week, from
Surely then, if it was requisite at any time to leave 1 their unwillingness to put upon their journals the ries.
those powers unrestricted and unlimited, the difficul. 1 lancholy tact of the King's incapacity. The report
ties of the present moment justly and imperatively 1 of the physicians was the evidence of the King's ill-
called for the fullest exercise of the regal powers. If ; ness, and also the evidence of the probability of hie
the exercise of those had formerly been found to be 'recovery. The present state of his illness was more
, useful, what was there in the nature of our present 1 favourable than in 1788. Then the physicians could
1 situation that should make us consider it not only as i assign no cause for the King's illness, except that
I 1 useless, but mischievous? It were really carious to ' one assigned by Dr. Willis alone, namely, the tre-
I examine die nature of the proposed restrictions. It mendous one, of the habits of twenty-seven year/e-
-1 would lead us to believe that what is useful in a King,' from severe exercise, anxiety, and abstemiousness.
Irma be useless or mischievous in a Regent—and that, ' Here the cause was universally admitted to be oats
therefore, when a Regency is to be established, you which the nation were so much inclined to feel and
should suspend elle exercise of the prerogatives of the .to honour. The King was still in possesses:l otitis
Crowe io the hands of the Regent. And, indeed, if authority ; and whoever spoke in derogation of that
lour leoedships aswnt.to the proposition of the Noble authority, was guilty of treason, and must stand the
6, eitetery of State, what may not be the inconvenien. risk with his lite. The House now had no authority
Oriel and difficulties in which you may involve the but that from necessity, and they must not exceed
Regent ? You would withhold from him, for in. , the bounds of that necessity. Those who contended
-stance, the power 4of rewarding merit, a power which , for giving the creation of Peers to the Regent, most
has been studiously upheld in all civilized nations; • thew, that without such 'a power, the Government cf
but abort all in monarchies The power to reward the Regent could not be carried on. Was ihe poverty
merit wet always the most grateful prerogative of a . of the Crown's influence such, that nothing but the
Monarch. But now, when you would call upon the privilege could stetaia it alive ? Let the klou.e c:na.



lected whether a notice s
The Earl of LIVER
giving sqch a general st
Denied to wish, to subm
sion of the House to-I
he ivished.tn abstain froi
to anticipate the propos
pondenoe which would
spotted ceruin steps tal
application of a pOrtiM
steps arose sett of circus
n ‘rbich his Majesty's C
sable their Lordships
hject, the correspond
ith respect to the pr
they would have to coil
tarty belonged to anoi
cumstances, and the a
titer, he would feel it his
which would go to auth
this was a distinct quest
giiesty'§ Governnieqt r
qp! -i:mg--on this he w
eon stt .ny time, but
some 'steps should be tal

pare the power of die Regent; with that iiltich he was were now ho more. There were no doubt ifeak
to receive in 1789. Let them compare the Patronage names en both sides a the question. What his'
of that time with this. The army were then 50,000, opinion was, he should rot hesitate to declare. It
they were now 00,000;3 the Navy were then 50,000, was his settled judgment that, on general principles,
they were now 150,000 ; the Revenue was then 14 there should be no Regency without limitations, re-
millions, it was now upwards of 70. Those who had strictions and conditions. The Constitution saw them
talked of' the necessity of heaping all kinds of nitro- in ho other light, and it therefore always imposed on
nage upon the Regent as absolutely necessary for his them restrictions, limitations, and conditions, This
authority, were the very same men who were pope- it was not difficult to prove. If we looked to the
tually declaiming against its enormous and cumbrous 21th of George 11. we should see that it provided
accumulation in the hands of the King's Govern. certain restrictions for no less a period thansix years,
silent. Was it hot to be provided that it the Regent Again, if we look to the 4th of George 111. we shall
might find advisers who would induce him to abuse there find that it provided restrictions for twelve
his authotity it should not be in their power to make years. These were guides which' were nut lost
the abuse fatal? It was said the King, on his recovery, sight of in 1788. The title of Regent was un-
vsould not be anxious, in the first instance, wheziler i known to the Common Law, and he had the au-
his Household Officers were or were not changed: i thority of LordThurlow to say, that a'. Regent was a
but there was an incipient state, an incipient reco- mere creature of statute, and his powers are given
Very, in which be might look round him, and be dis- to 'him by statute ; but all the prerogatives remained
turbed by the change. There were great authorities 1 with the King. He would now examine what hid
for the present proceeding of the Ministers, Lords I been enacted by the statute to which he had referred.
iCareden and Thurlowe Me. Pitt. Lord Grenville, had It first named ten Counsellors, not of advice, but of
' fall adopted the course which Ministers had now taken controul—and it was material to see how they were
up. He (Lord Sidmout was not coming forward appointed—the King was entitled to name four, nor
to be the defender of the Ministry; but he could not were they then merely restrained from creating Peers,
Vote for the Amendment till he saw the necessity of but even certain officers were names whom they
the unlimited powers fully established. could not change, the Lord Chancellor, the ,Commis-
Lord ERSKINE agreed that Parliament should sinners of the Navy, the M ister of the Rolls, Etc. tee.
not presume to touch the Royal Authority until it and four or five of them were suffici..snt to put their
bad been solemnly and satisfactorily shown; that the ! negative on the creating of Peers. Nor was there any
exercise of the Royal Functions was interrupted, to the tremedy against their interference, except an appeal
detriment of the public service. But when the fact of to the two Huuses of Parliament. If all these prece-
his Majest ',incapacity bad once been established, I dents were consulted, it would be seen that by none
no delay have been allowed to intervene, and iof them was such powers granted as are now nro-
an immediate remedy obgbt to have been applied j posed. No t. not the fortieth part of them. For
withodi hesitation, or refusal to proceed to those acts I giving his opinion on this matter, he should offer no
which it was the duty of the two Houses to perform. apology. He was the subject of a King who himself
It had been insinuated that it might be difficult for the was limited, and would say that Parliament must
King to resume his authority upon his recovery, un- keep the bond of their allegiance to their Sovereign,
less these restrictions were imposed. He could see no and see that the power entrusted in his name should
room for such an insiouation. The King would have be placed under proper limitations, restrictions, and
only waives' to Parliament, and in the honour and 'conditions. Thus it would he provided, that his Ma-
integrity of the two Houses, .he would have full secu- jesty, when happily restored to health, might resume
rity for the resurnption of his power upon his perfect his authority unimpaired--otherwise, indeed, the
recovery. As to the restrictions respecting the grant- King would not enjoy. what is allowed to tee Meanest
ing of Peerages, he saw no just foundation for them. of his subjects. Where were those who were so loud
It was a restriction which never had been imposed in their assertions that die influence and power of the
up ,n any Regency. Where was the example of any Crown should be diminished ? Are they prepared to
such restrictions and limitations having been laid on say, that in the King it should be limited, that in the
any Regency ? Have not all the prerogatives of King it should be without controul, and that even at
Royalty been given to Regencies where there were that time when we liioked for the King's recovery,
Councils attached to them, even in the case of minors; and therefore to his resumption ofhis Regal functions?
and shall tl- ese prerogatives be refused to the Prince If the proposed restrictions were wise ta 1788, as he
of Wales, in the full maturity of .age and vigour of contended they were, why should trot they also be
understanding ? lie should like to, hear of any one thought wise and salutary its NM ? His Lordship
instance in which such restrictions had been proposed. concluded A most learned and arenmentative speech,
and admitted. Fears have been started of difficulties by some eloquent aed pathetic allusions to the unfor-
arising to the return of his-Majesty tothe full exercise tunate situation of onr beloved Sovereign.
of his Royal authority. In what tpartercould such Lord SPENCF.:R protested against the unnecessaryl
a difficulty arise ? Oould it for a moment be supposed and improper protraction that had taken place. The `1
that such a difficulty could arise from any undue in- Noble and Learned Lord had proceeded on a corn-
!hence created in their Lordships' House ? In was - piece fallacy from the beginning to the end of his
impossible that any suth number of Peers could be ,speech. The power •of creating Peers had always
made as to overpower in 'that House the attach- existed somewhere or other. It was inseparable from
meet of their Lordships to the person of the Sove- the Royal Authority; and the Royal Authority was I I
reign on the Throne. He might' safely say that no that which the two. Houses of Parliament had de- ;1
man would resent and resist such a measure more re- dared it was their right and duty to supply. So it: i
solutely than he would himself, or no man could was also with the power of granting places and pen. 1
snore sincerely rejoice to see his Majesty fully restored sions ; and although he was one of those who voted 1
to the complete enjoyment of all his prerogatives. Any ( for the abolition of the power of granting offices in
other supposition would be disgraceful to the House. ' reversion, yet he would not take the opportunity, I I
He contended, that the King's incapacity being esta- when the Monarch was suffering under the visitation 1
blished, it became the duty of the States of the realm to of PROVIDLbiCE, to stripahe Crown of its brightest I
supply the place of the royal authority, and to give ef- ornament. ' i
feet to it in all its functions ;to put the country.in the Several Peers rising together, a desultory cc-sneer- ! 4
same state it was before such a calamity took place. sation took place with respect to the right of priority; I
—Upon what foundation would they alter in any r —which was at length determined by the Chairman i
manner the functions of the Regal Authority ? iof the Committee (Lord Vialsinghani) in favour of,
And it was contested, that, because they limited Lord SELKIRKoiho argued against the restrictions.
the Royal authority in the hands of former Regents, Earl CLANCARTY expressed his approbation of
they were to adhere to that principle upon the present; the Resolutions, and contended that all preceding
but lie asked, was there any Lase in which the Heir Regencies had been appointed with restrictions. That
Apparent, being of full age, was-thought incapable of was the tenor of precedent. -
exercising the Royal functions in all its branches?— The Duke of NORFOLK supported the Resole.
Let them sliew him any one instance in which all the tion,respecting the Household, as it came from the
functions had 'not been given, and all the prerogatives House of Commons.
had been restricted. But his Noble Friend contended ,Lord•HOLLAND opposed the restrictions on the
that they should not grant that particular prerogative broad principle that the Monarchy of England ought
of creating Peers, because his powers of influence are not to be deprived of its prerogatives without the a,
much greater now than in former tunes; that the este- consent of the person in whom that Monarchy was
blislament of the army is increased; thatthe number of vested. The reason which induced the Noble and
ships is greater than ever, and the revenue of the cnun- Learned Lord opposite to support the restrictions,
try greatly enlarged, the Regent is to supply the Royal was therefore the reason which induced him to op,
office in all its functions, without the power for that pose them, namely, the temporary suspension of the
purpose ; that he is to carry on the Government of , powers of the Crown. Such a principle, as that as-
the country, while the means for effecting it were sus- serted by the Noble and Learned Lord, would be the
pended. Putting every thing aside with regard to most fatal, not only to the Monarch of Great Britain,
the character of his Royal Highnesi the Prince of but to any limited Monarchy whatever. The' two,
Wales, could the addition J f any number of Peers Houses first declared that it was their right and duty
Overpower the affections of that House towards the to supply the deficiency in the executive authority,
person of the Sovereign?—they (the Lords) were the and it was then proposed to them to supply it no: fully
members of a large tamely. lamenting over the mis- hut by scraps, shreds, and patches. The Noble and
fortunes of their revered parent—no man could con- Learned Lord appealed to the feelings of the House.
template the immediate occasion of the King's illness He-trusted that he had as much just feeling as any I
but with sentiments of the most poignant grief and re- man. He knew also that those feelings which he
gret. Was it not then of the greatest importahce that cherished the most strongly, he was the most repug-
they should act strongly and like men ? Nor should he nant to expose. He would not therefore allow any
have advanced these arguments if he could think for one to tell him that he did not feel because he was
a moment his Majesty could be injured by it—if his not loud in his expression of feeling. This parade of i
Majesty could be removed one atom from an amend- feeling 'however did not proceed with a good grace
Merit of his health, or that his recovery could be 'from those who had not allowed even the dearest ties+
I
thrown back one instant. No man would more firmly of his Majesty to approach his person. Much 'stress
resist any attempt of the kind than himself ; but had been laid on the speech from the Throne in 1759,
vhat consolation must it be to the Royal mihd, on. I and it had been said that it impiied the Royal appeo-
his recovery, to find that the Heir Apparent of the I bation of the preceding measures. • In fact, however,
Crown had been vested with the Royal Authority, ;it was the speech of Ministers, and what authority
and given full effect to the Governmenoof his king- I was that ? He put it to their Lordships whether
dom ! Had Mr. Pitt lived in those times, he was i there was not a great difference between the public
convinced his vast and comprehensive mind would I sentiment on the measures adopted in 1788, and the
have approved of such a measure—he would have public sentiment on the measure now proposed'?—
been one of the first to carry it into execution. For Even since he had entered the House, he had received
these reasons, and upon the general principle and con- several petitions, which he was desired to present,
stitutional grounds, he could not agree to these Re- against the pending proceedings. Ministers attemp-
solutions, but should give his decided support to the i ted to justify their conduct by a reference to the pre.
Amendment. icedents of 1788, in a way which reminded him of an
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to follow I anecdote he had somewhere met with. A school-boy'
the example of a Noble Viscount (Sidmouth), and went up with a Greek exercise to Dr. Bentley.. The
to express the opinion he entertained on the pre-I Doctor having remarked in it a solecism, pointed it
sent occasion, and to discharge the duty which it out to the lad, who justified himself by appealing to
imposed upon him. Much had been said respect,' the authority of Pindar. 4. Aye (said. the Learned
ing the precedent of 1788. Let what might be Doctor), Pindar was a bold fellow, and you are an
*thought of it, he, for one, would ever consider it impudent fellow."
as a complete precedent, as to the manner in which \ Lord HA RROWBIr conceived that those who
it regulated the powers 'of the Regent. It was a I voted from principle againststhe restrictions propo-
precedent countenanced by the Rest allthorities .of ;must vote against all restrictions whateeer.
that day, by men Alf she liilOst t,h2tKter, who
riaitt.cd that to silo Haws had "64
... . -
-- - '

at i$ Was

•


-1

/lama-

, • t
induce to *o4—he meant the Reialutio*
relative td the creation of Peers. He allowed the de.
legated power ought to be Marked as delegated. He
was far from considering that Royal authority was
the property of the person by whom it was he11._...
It eras the property of the Peopl from whom it
originally emanated, and for Whose benefit it was ves-
ted. It would scarcely be necessary for him to sly,
that if personal confidence were the ground (as which
the present question was to be argued, no degree of
confidence could in his ceinion be too great to place
in the illustrious Individual to whom this high and
exalted trust was to be confided. But he repeated,
that there ought to be a marked difference between
original and delegated authority. A great mis'ake
had arisen with respect to the limitation in 1788, no
the restriction upon the creating of Peers ; and the
(Noble Lords who rested so much on that precedent,
(now brought forward the Resolution altered in that
very point on which the divisions took place in that
House, namely, whether there should be a limitation
to the restrictions or not ? By their own confession,
therefore, they admitted that the circumstances of the
two periods were materially different. His vote would
much depend on the time for which the restriction
was to be imposed. But there was another more ion.
portant deviation in the Resolution, respecting the
Peerage, from the precedent of 1788, a deviation of
the most destruCtive and fatal nature. This was the
exeinption in favour of naval and military men. Now
'he held it as a first principle of the Constitution that
the honours of the State were open to all ; and that
there was no peasant, however mean, who m;glie
Imo aspire to rank one day higher than the highest
lof their Lordships. By this resolution, however,
'the path to honour was circumscribed. But pride,
which every Englishman felt in the knowledge of
'the doctrines which he had Jost asserted, was sup.
pressed, and the most fatal principles were intro.
duced. Were their Lordships prepared thus to cif+
cumscribe the path to honour ? Were they prepared ,
thus to stigmatite themselves to establish an insi.
dious distinction ? Were they prepared to declare
that those who held Peerages for civil services,
either as legal men or as Statesmen, held them by a
title less worthy than that of the great end emiisens
persons who had been justly distinguished (or their
naval and military atchievements He was sure
that he would not be understood as depreciating
the merits of the heroes of the country. With the
utmost respect for them, he was ready to•say that
their professions Were the most honourable and
the most advantageous. He held in high estima-
tion the services by which the Duke of Mai lborough
and Earl Nelson took their seats in that House. But
yet he was not prepared to say that the descendant of
the Earl of Chatham sat there under a less honour.
able title. The principle proposed to be introduced
was a dangerous novelty to which he would never
consent. He admitted, however, that the power of
creating Peers and the power of granting places and
pensions were well chosen parts of the Royal Autho.
rity on which to impose restriction, if any restriction
were necessary, because the nature of the intended
Government was temporal, and the powers to be re-
stricted were permanent. Upon the whole, his oil-
jection to the words of the Resolution was, teat they
pledged him to some restriction. whereas. itnlaaa that
restriction was properly qualified .—unless the author
of the Resolution followed it up on a just principle,
and unless they withdrew from it the odious claim
to which he had just alluded, he could not vote for
, it. As to the regulation respecting the King's personal
property, it met with his hearty concurrence. Wish
respect to the Resolution relative to the household,
he hesitated not so say, that lie would give a decided.
preference to the proposition which came from tie
House of Commons, over that which was to be brought
forward by the Noble Secretary of State. Goo
forbid that he should object to any expression of feel.
ing which fell from the Noble Lords opposite on this
subject. I4e was bound to think those feelings were
,the genuine effusion of their hearts. He agreed
with them completely in principle. Indeed he went
one step further, for he thought that the two Houses
ought not only to provide every comfort and con.
venience for his Majesty, but also that they ought
to provide for the maintenance of his Royal dignity.
They ought to remernZer that he was a sick King.
That he ought not to be left as a common int&
vidoal in such circumstances, but that as a Soir4.
reign ; although on a bed of sickness, they should
throw around him the ensigns of Royal dignity. If
,the Resolution from the House of Commons did not
contain a distinct reference to such a principles he
would move to supply it. But having considered
and re-considered that resolutions and having heard
it criticised by the Noble Lords opposite, he was still
at a loss to conceive how it was deficient in the asser-
tion of the-principle, the detail of vdtich mast be a
matter of subsequent regulation—a regulation that
he was aware would be accompanied with some dill.
culty. It.appeared to him, that although the situa.
tion df the King might requite fewer attendants, yet
it was necessary he should be attended by' persons of
the same rank and degree as the present, in order to
preserve a marked difference between the Sovereign
and any of his subjects. He should vote for the Rea
solution of the Commons, because it ccattaihed a re-,
cital of provisions for the comfort, and still /mire foe
the dignity, of his Majesty ; but if the Bill to be foun.
ded on that Resolution did not follow op the principles,
it should meet with his decided opposition.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL, in reply, depicted the
evils which must flow from the adoption of the Noble!
Marquis's amendment. If the words limitations and
restrictions were to be done away, it would carry along
with them the custody of the King's person, the corn.
plete power over his private property, and -all the
powers of the King of the Realm would appertain to
the Regent. If the qualification was let stand, a new
modelling of the Resolutions would still be left open.
The Resolution was copied verbatim from that agreed
to 1788. Strong objections had been made by more
than one Noble Lord to the esceptir
jof naval and military officers
He would, theretbres agree to
tion agreeably to the wishes .._
After that he thought no objection
4th Resolution, he understood
and with respect to the-sth, that
Household, the Noble Earl

. . ,
their right and duty ka supply tle deficiency in they'
Executive Government, but that was qualified with
the accompaning declaratidn that it waetheir duty to
supply it in such a manner as the exigency or the case
might require. It appeared to him to be distinctly
established by a reference to precedents that a Regent
. had never been invested with power equal to that of
the Crown. AR the authority that the two Houses
possessed, originated in the necessity of the case.
Their acts must be lietited by that necessity, Red
what necessity was there for allowing the Regent to I
create Peers ? Would any one assert that such a
power could be necessary to the Regent to enable him
to carry on a legitimate Government for a twelve-
month ? Adverting to the Resolution respecting the
Household, hs deprecated the division therein pre-
scribed, and contended that it would be scarcely pos.
sihie satisfactorily to separate the part which was to
belong to the Regent from the part which was to re-
main with the King.
Lord GRENVILLE remonstrated on the manner
in which the opinions that he had formerly advanced
in another place had been exaggerated with an inten-
tion by no means obscdie. It would have been more
manly if those who had intended to embarrais him by
this manoeuvre had not covered their designs with the
language of praise. Embarrassed, however, he was
not. He had ever been of opinion (although this opi-
nion had no application in the present instance,) that
to purchase consistency at the expellee of inegrity,
could be gratifying to those alone who preferred the
opiniim of others to the approbationof their own hearts.
Far be from him such a wish. The only question
which, in his public life, be ever proposed to himself
way, 4, What is the interest of my country, and con-
sequently what is my duty?" Never would he be
deterred by any fear of being charged with incon-
sistency, from delivering his free and unbiassed
opinion. If he saw reason to abandon former sen-
timents, he would not scruple to avow, that more
mature deliberation, and it might he more exten-
sive knowledge; haci taught him that they were er-
roneous. To say that any one must be bound by
his first judgment, was to say that the life of that man
must be spent in vain, and that from the opinion which
he expressed on the day of his entrance on a public
career he must never subsequently deviate. Soch had
not been the principles of the best Legislators of this
and other countties. No individual whose memory
was more dear to the world, of whom it might not be
shown that he had the manliness at some period or
other of his life to avow former emir. The history of
the last fifty years would afford sufficient examples
of this fact. He trusted, however, that no one
would suppose he said all this as applicable to the
circumstances in which he found himself placed ;
for he declared that he adhered strictly to all the
principles which he had asserted on the same sub-
ject in 1788. On one part of the subject, and that
the most important, he had already declared hieopi-
nice both in that H..use and in another manner,
which had become public. He had declared, with.
all due deference to the respectable authorities by
which he had been opposed, that he had not the least
doubt that on the two Houses of Parliament devolved
the necessity of providing for all the deficiencies which
might occur in the legislative and executive aittho-
ritr. In what manner the latter was supplied was a
grave consideration, but he was convinced that the
power in the two Houses of supplying it could be
limited only by the necessity. On the principle 'of
necessity constituting and limiting this power in the
two Houses, he maintained that the power of restrict-
ing the Regent resided in them. Had a law existed
on the subject, no such power would have devolved ;
but, es no such law existed, the power reverted
to the people of the land, represented by the legal
Representatives of those Estates into which the
people were divided. He could imagine many oc-
casions on which it must be generally admitted that
a provision ought to be made to meet an exigency by
no means co-extensive with the Royal authority. He
thought proper to state it as a matter of principle, that
he had no doubt of the power of limiting the autho-
rity of the Regent residing in the two Houses. A
contrary principle would be an absolute solecism. A
great deal too much had, in his opinion, been said in
another place, in the course of the debates on this sub-
ject, about personal character. He thought it a me-
larcholy proof et the situation of this country. He
should have hoped that it would have been possible
to refer to the opinions of all the great men who dif-
(era from one another in 1788, without imputing to
anyone improper motives. He was happy to think that
no intemperance of this sort bad taken place among
their Lordships. Of each of the great men who were
in direct opposition to each other at the period which
he had mentioned, might be said, as Bolingbroke
said of the Duke of Marlborough, when some one
was accusing his Grace, " be had his. failings,
but he was so great a man that I forgot what they
were." He would, therefore, proceed to state his
sentiments on the subject without asking whether
they accorded with those of this great man, or
that great man, in times of the greatest party-heat
that he had ever witnessed; or, he trusted, that
on any occasion he ever should witness. He would
presently shew that the very persons who brought
tor.vard the present Resolutions as founded on the
precedents of 1788, felt that that precedent was so
inapplicable to the present time, that, in framing the
Resolutions, they departed from the essential princi.
pie of that precedent ; and for that very reason he
should oppose one of the Resolutions. But he should
not rest on this authority ; he would appeal to the
commonsense of their Lordships; whether the cits
cumstances of the present times were not essentially
different from those of 1788 ? A Noble Viscount had
taken a narrow view of that difference when he spoke
only of the change in the amount of our establish-
ments and of our revenue. He would push that
consideration further, and ask what rendered that
increased establishment necessary ? He would ask,
if there was an individual, in, the country who by
possibility, could be called to the Councils of the
Regent, who would not be happy to change the
presets); establishment for the establishment in 1788,
if ht Vould also get rid of the other circumstances in
which the present period differed from that period !
How then could he be justly accused of inconsistency,
if, under different circumstances, he entertained dif
ferent opinions?—His -opinion, with respect to the re-
strictions, must depend on their nature and expediency.
There was a proposed restriction, for which, in one
shape, be would vote i but for which, In the shape in
Willa it lay on the tags; air earthly consideration

,der arguments in favour
proposed;
After • few remarkso in
lioLLaso, the questio* being


escepticui made in favour
s in the peerage cause..
o amending that Resolve
el of the Noble Lorfili.,;-
)bjection 'could lie to .
oci there was no ob* ' t
milt
that respecting the 4614
enforced some of f& (pr-
of shaping it as tottgaalif
t es froth froth Lori ,
ins y Aped iur, tli@