Star.
London, England, 1818-03-12 00:00:00

anther case since, where 100 witnesses had sworn
ac.:•s- the lives of the prisoners, and afterwards went
their homes without the least molestation. At
prbe, also, there were witnesses to the amount of
ei hundreds, of whom 30 or 40 were examined,
s'erno danger had resulted to them. It was in vain
thei to say, that because an imaginary danger was
contemplation, a Bill ought to. be passed, setting
Nile all laws, and holding out indemnity to all de-
pions of rersons. It t en rested on the Gentle-
• isite to shew what made it now, for the first
;,°l:lnipossiihle for honest men, who had only dis-
Lared their duty, to produce their names, without
leer of their lives ? Much stress had been laid on
le question, why what was asset-fed to be known of
• ',duct of Oliver at the opening of the last Ses-
sionchad been kept back He would give an an-
to this, that would set the matter at rest.—
within the last three or four weeks that
It was only
it became sale for people to tell these stories. Until
ithin this time, the Habeas Corpus Act was sus-
pea
1.,1. and persons who had presumed to speak
such a subject might have been committed to
,:on for an indefinite length of time ; while those
:e made themselves the enemies of Mr. Oliver,
exactly those persons who were apprehended.—
ii..!at did it signify whether it was on Oliver s oath
• •ct, as long as it was known that he was in close
emunication with his Majesty's Government, and
el Familiar in the Office of the Right Hon.
ree'„nnan opposite? It should be recollected that
last Report it was not known but what it was
single oath that had been the cause of all the
. 7.:itments that had taken place from the country.
then, were the people to put themselves in the
;elm of being ruined and destroyed by this mis-
ceelis hreath passing over them, and polluting the
ear cf the Noble Secretary of State? This was no
imaginary case, hut one that had already occurred in
a. It was the case of Scholes, which had already
ae before the House. He was exactly in the same
;tuition, and had suffered because he had threatened
expose Oliver. For this he was arrested, impri-
ted, and irretrievably ruined, in health and circum-
alias, as appeared by most respectable testimony ;
ad all because he was too indignant to exercise pre-
ietion towards Oliver, and even presumed to
.neaten him. In 48 hours afterwards he was taken
cm his home and thrown into a prison. Was this
°thing to such men as might know the part that
I:iver took at the Horse Guards ? The honest, though
cable individuals, who could have given this infor-
m knew that the fate,of Scholes awaited them if
had done so. Respecting the Petitions, he would
allude to that of Ward ; he was certainly a dis-
person, but the statements of persons con-
d to die were credited by the Noble Lord
Ward ; yet if they made such a declaration
, a hope of pardon, how much less right had we
refuse to believe the dying declarations of others,
• moment of execution, when they knew they
Juld avail themselves nothing by their assevera-
But they were not to be believed, because
,v were convicted traitors, though their declara-
a traced to Oliver the plan that had caused them
suffer death ? The Petitions, therefore, ought not
be ail condemned, as unauthenticated and un-
'rely of credit. He therefore wished for a Cora-
-nquire into the truth of them ; though an
k Member called on the House, 4.p the
:rush and justice, to withhold all such in.
iy which mode alone the truth could be
It was such persons, and ttot he, who stig-
-11 Committees of that House. We had got
:h of saying, that any man who was unfor-
id became a Petitioner to that House, must
ipostor ; therefore though they were bound
willing ear to Petitions, they turned a deaf
tern, crying oat, pharisaically, we are the
wives of the people—we open our doors
itions and complaints—but we shall meet
It the assertion, that Ward was a bad man,
Core your Petitions must be false and shall
timed to. This was not the way to shew
House willingly stood between'the Members
Constituents, to lean against power, and
temselves the protectors of people—(hear,
tr.) His Honourable Friend (Mr. Lambe)
led that sedition and disaffection were ever
whatever might be the prosperity of the
. He had said it existed in all the manufac-
districts. But what would the Honourable
men who represent the manufacturing coun-
to this sweeping charge against them ? This
most foul and wanton charge against all the
Lamers, who were represented as a set of men
Jm no Government could confide, and that
is a treasonable spirit not confined to the men
places—(hear, hear)—So these two millions
:cts were always to be an object of jealousy
,ernmeat, v:ho are to consider them, as regards
legiante. as rotten at the core ! The Honour-
intleman's speech proved too much ; it proved
had outlived the good times of our loyalty,
toad of the Indemnity Act, he ought to pro-
le continuance of the Suspension Act. He
el the House to :effect before they vc,ted, to
ind of persons they were holding out protec-
t was to informers and spies, who were even
with his Honourable Friend's contempt—
hear).--In answer to what had fallen on a
night from an Honourable Member (Mr.
intlel, who had spoken of his own consistency,
defeaded himself on the authority of Mr.
ihy, he begged leave, in justice to the memory
lamented friend, to state, that although Mr.
by had agreed with the Committee, he totally
:ea from the subsequent measures. Mr. Pon-
was a strenuces defender of the Constitution,
itevalue teo ;yell to destroy by his vote the
• of Isis cotintry—/Loud cheers)—every time'
se Ministers might think proper to raise the
of alarm, or afterwards justify their acts, when-
packed Committee could be found to sanction
7',.nduct—(Laud cries of hear, hear, hear)—
by the sheet anchor of the State, and the
•torm. y the period, the greater seemed to him
issei: of holding by it I—(llear,
C,),,titittional lawyer of the old school, and on
ind.T.ei. of constitutional policy his wisdom vn-
-hale his elequence roused the Iloitse.-
4„. ,
held by the maxim, that it was a,
on iit those who affected to hold genuine
intuciple.;. to abandon, on the slightest ap-
ac of danger, the security of the Constitution
cf the ("Town and t'ae madness of

the peopie.(hear.)--His langlige vras ever, tt and
oh !' exclaimed Mr. Brougham, " that he wee here
to ring it in the ears of the Honourable Gentleman 1"
his language was—" Let us preserve the Constitu-
tion and we shall fear neither confusion from abroad

nor corruption within, nor the power of the Crown,"
which he dreaded more than all. The Hon. Mem-

ber then adverting to the high station acquired by
this country by her free form of Government, added,
that if the new doctrine of confidence broached that

night were to be carried into effect, it mattered little
who bore office, or who wanted it, it was of little im-

portance what might be the forms of the Constitu-
tion, the substance of the thing was gone, and with
it the liberty of the country must be -lost for ever.—

(Loud Chirring.)
Mr. LAMBE- said there had been one misrepre-'
sentation of his Learned and Honourable Friend, so

totally unfounded and so foul, that it was impossible
he could suffer it to pass, He had said that he (Mr.
Lambe) had made a charge of foul disloyalty against,
two millions of people. He was sure he had not
meant to say any such thing, and he thought it was
impossible the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
could have so expressed himself, if he had listened to
him fairly and candidly. He had said that a certain
number of agitators still existed in the manufacturing
districts : but he believed with the Reports, that these
two millions of persons who resided in them were
sound, and loyally disposed.
Mr. CANNING said, that if he were to agree to
the doctrine laid down, that the interference of Mi-

nisters had been utterly unnecessary, he might ab-
stain from troubling the House. But if at this late
period of the debate there were to be any indisposi-
don on the part of Ministers to take part in it, it
might be imputed to them, that they shrunk from
the question. It had been admitted, that the attack-
ing party should take the widest possible range, and
call in all their auxiliaries to their aid ; but those who
were on their, defence must stick to the point.—
But how could any man argue on the Indemnity Bill,
without reference to the measures on which it was
founded ? He would not say that the Indemnity
Bill was the necessary consequence of the Suspension
of the Habeas Corpus Act, though of all men the
Honourable Gentleman who spoke last was the last
person who ought to avail himself of this point ; for
that Honourable and Learned Gentleman having
last year been defeated in two opportunities of pre-
venting the Suspension, consoled himself on the pro-
spective opposition he should make to the Bill of In-
demnity. In his mind, therefore, it was connected
with the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. The
necessity, however, of a Bill of Indemnity, grew out
of the circumstances of the country, in which neces-
sity the Suspension Act originated. This state of the
country rendered it necessary for those who acted
under the Government, if they meant to do their
duty, to outstrip the limits of the law. The same
state of things that produced this necessity, induced
the House to make a temporary sacrifice of that por-
tion of our liberties, and out of these circumstances
had grown the necessity of indemnifying them for'
the acts they had committed, and of which they
could not make a full justification, without an expo-
sure of the evidence that had been laid before them ;
that was, to indemnify them for having committed'
acts beyond the law, and to dispense with the neces-
sity of their justifying acts in themselves legal, but
legally not provable, except by evidence that could
not be disclosed. It was therefore incorrect to say,
that the Indemnity Bill was a consequence of the
Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman proceeded to argue, that
the House would have been unjust if they had not
taken into their contemplation the probability of. a
Bill of Indemnity being required ; otherwise Minis-
ters would have been placed in a situation of doing
acts for which they could not produce a perfect de-
fence. The question now was, whether a Bill of In-
demnity from the Lords should be accepted? and he
would agree that if a case was not made out for it,
the reason must be, the abuse of the powers confided
to them, and which would be a just ground for re-
fusing it. If those who opposed the measure would
look fairly at the question, they must see, that if the
existing laws had been adequate to check the disturb-
ances of the country, it was not now, but last year,
that they should have refused to grant the Suspension
Act, and then the present Bill would not have been
required. The very nature of the measure was, to ena-
ble Government to detain specifically any suspected
persons, with= bringing them to trial—(hear, hear).
Honourable Gentlemen had denied the force of pre-
cedents, and he was far from saying that there existed
a precedent corresponding in all its parts with that
which Parliament had sanctioned. But if they looked
backward, and saw the seeds of such a measure, they
had a right to infer the necessity ofadapting them to
any future exigency. They must agree that the first
year of King William was as whiggish a year as
could be found in our history ; and in that year a
message came down to the House, 'staring reports
of private meetings for the purpose of as iisting King
James, and adding that his Majesty had caused per-
sons to be apprehended and confined, but was un-
illing to detain them, in case he should do any thing
contrary to the law. This pointed directly to the
case. The Whigs of 1688 sanctioned the acts com-
mitted by the Whig King ; and on these grounds
if Ministers had abused the powers which this pre-
cedent 'furnished them with, far be it from him to
say, that they ought not to be called to account.—
Now, as to the Petitions, it was considered by the
Learned Gentleman, that they had not examined
them specifically, and he held this out as a proof of
the disregard of Parliament for the rights of the peo-
ple. But let any man look back to these Petitions,
and examine how far they were borne out by facts.—
Was every man who had been let loose to be allowed
to come to the bar and say he had been most cruelly
treated, and was the most innocent of mankind, and
that his merits alone had pointed him out for perse-
cution ? There were Petitions of every class, and
many which imputed all that had passed to Oliver.
Ile mast givc the Gentlemen opposite credit for lately
dep!oring the situation of that wick !d instigator of
murder Ward, though they now found it convenient
to give him up—(hear, hear.)—For this mar. the tears
and commiseration of that House had been invoked,
till it was hinted that their compassion was solicited
for an assassin and an instigator of murder. Next
the revered Ogden was held up, for all the sympathy
that silver-haired age and deep infirmity were entitled
to ; and great stress was laid on that description of

• .
shocking opontion by which his bowels were eerie- that if A Mitt hitt intorntidem to Gotertirtieitt, it
ted. But what Was the plain strory ? Why, that might be credited C first time t but if the informer,
he had laboured under this disease lot many years, at the recommendation of Goteniment, should pros
and he thought roper to take the advantage of ceed•to gaia) fresh information, the second fact would
. .
ming cured gratis, while he expressed the great be good for nothing, because his relation of one cif%
deligit that the operation afforded him_(hear.)— cumstance must necessarily disqualify him from re,
This might be a very proper case for the considers- sating any more. According to this new creed, terice
tion of the Rupture Society, but he could not see ar, informer was once a spy, or perhaps the Honours
what Parliament had to do with it. But the Gentle- able Gentleman had in his mind some analogy to the
men opposite had thought it necessary to bolster up nature of the bee. The bee, it was 'said, could pro-
Ward's case with this gratuitous case of surgery, and duce but one sting, anrae in vulnere ponit. So
then throwing in a cart load of other petitions, asser- the informer, it was inferred, could make but one
ted that the House had not examined enough. Why, information, and all his power of observation, all his
it was only because they were convinced of the gross faculty of seeing and hearing, became immediately
fraud and delulion that had been attempted to be extinguished-_(a laugh.)—An Honourable Gentle"
practised on them, and if they had turned round to man had, on a former occasion, quoted pi:day on
the examination, they would have lived to repent the the subject, and had been pleased to refer to the int"
day, and would not only have had the consolation of mortal batd (Shakspeare) for authority. Certainly
being pitied, but the aggravation of being laughed he could not go to a better source ; but if be had
at for fools. There was another case which was in- carried his researches into that author a little further,
tended to connect Government with the spies. A he might have found -a description of an informer,
man named Dewhurst was seen in a gig of Sir which seemed to tally exactly with his own beau ideal
John Byng. He would admit that the assertion was of such a character. He alluded to that informer who
retracted afterwards ; but no matter—only give the eso dull, so dead in look, 110 w one, I
Gentlemen opposite sufficient time, and they would " Woke Priam's curtain in the dead of night:
"And mould have told him, half his Troy was burned, (a lase.)
retract all the rest that they had made. Half of those
they had already made had gone off by their own "hat Priam found the fire, eve he his tongtie." (A loud laugh.)
confessions, and it did seem a little whimsical that He did not know whether it might be imputed to his
Government was to take the other half of these own obtuseness of wit or hardness of heart, but he
fabrications for granted. But then came the two must say, that if Priam had detained that pale, wo-
'
convincing refutations front Sir John Byng himself. begone man, and instead of enquiring about the fire,
i `')Where
had no gig. And, yet from these two non-
here was no such man as Dewhurst, and he (Sir J. hit questioned him about his birth, parentage, and
education-OmA laughter)—he, for one, though he
;
;entities was made out a proof of a connection between might be forced to applaud the judiciousness of such
Government and the Spies. He believed it was in
a proceeding, should have felt much less commise-
;
the time of Mr. Fox, when Geography was not sp ration for the fate of that venerabk Monarch than he
well understood by foreigners as it was at present, did at present—(mmi: laughter.) The Hon. Member
for, Bramber, whom he saw just returning to his
that one of them believed there was a roundabout
way 'of getting to England from the Continent by
place, might perhaps think he..was treating this ques-
land • and another has asked whether he could not don with too much levity i but he would beg that
go from Siciae to England in the same manner?— Honourable Gentleman to consider again, whether
Being answered in the negative, he expressed his sur- his (Mr. Canning's) notion of spies and informers was
prise,' as- Sicily *as an island as well as England.— not at least the most practically correct. That Ho.
So, if there had been Dewhurst without the gig, or nourable Gentleman, among his many virtues, had
the gig without Dewhurst, they could not have been one quality which might be considered a defect ; he
w
brought together ; but there being no gig and no was apt to think every man as good and as honest
Dewhurst, placed the accusers of Government in a
as himself; still, he was sure that Honourable Gen-
still greater dilemma to prove the connection. The tleman had lived long enough tb have found by ex.
Right Hon. Gentleman then adverted to the attempts perience, that the world cannot be governed on any
that had been made to chew that Oliver had been theoretical notions of purity. He must have felt
too, that as it was the sweetest reward of virtue, to
sent from London as a delegate, and repeated that it
was Mitchell who was the London delegate
have a perfect confidence in all around it, so it was
'had taken Oliver with him. But Oliver, and
beingwho once
the greatest curse of crime that it could not trust
even its dearest associates—to take away, therefore,
introduced as a delegate, was obliged to pass as one,
from crime, its penal-terror c 4 being betrayed by its
for it would have cost him his life to disavow it.—
Again, the speech ascribed to Oliver by Mitchell was intimates, and to communicate to it the best privilege
-true as it related to Mitchell, but false as to Oliver. of virtue; it was making virtue the prey of crime.
The Right Hon..
the 70,000 men, and contended Gentleman then went over the An Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham)
grounds respecting
had animadverted severely on an Hon. Friend (Mr.
that all that had been said on this subject came from Lamb) below him, for not keeping strictly to the hare
Mitchell, and not from Oliver. Then there was a question of indemnity ; and yet the Learned Gentle-
story of a Gentleman to whom Oliver gave inforrea- man himself, like all who preceded him, had launched
don of a plan to overturn Government by physWal into a full discussion of all that had occurred during
force. But what must be thought of the man who the last and present year, that could bear upon the
had never uttered a word of this conspiracy till he subject, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
found 'that- the conspirators had turned informers ? done right in so arguing ; for there was a cenne:tien
He believed that this most respectable Gentleman between the circumstances which called for the sns-
wished' to see the Government - overturned by pension, and those which called for the Indemnity
force, and was deterred from interfering to effect it Bill. Those who voted for the Suspension might
only by cowardice.—Thus were witnesses brought fairly be expected to vote for the Indemnity :• indeed,
forward, blasted in character and is name.— some Hon. Gentlemen had reasonably gone, further,
The Honourable Member for Durham had arrived and had argued, that though they had opposed the
from a distant part of the country, to cast new light Suspension Bill, yet as that had been passed, and
upon the subject, and he brought forward another therefore become the act and deed of Parliament, the
respectable Gentleman,
only question now was whether Ministerahatiexercised
spectable newspaper, who would swear that he saw their powers moderately ? A vast deal had been
said about the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus,
Oliver rioting in the Park on the day the Prince Re-
as if a blow had been struck at the liberties of the
gent was assailed. After this outrage, had not an
anxious inquiry been instituted—had not Magistrates whole people—(Loud cries of hear,'hear, hear.)—
This was not the case. He was as much disposed as
examined many witnesses upon the subject—had not
the public journals been filled with particulars, which, any man to think that crisis of affairs most lament•
for want of evidence, ended in nothing? It was im- able which required such an exertion .of power. Nay
possible that any man could be ignorant he would go faither—he not only lamented the Sus-
that of the fact,
an investigation was on foot ; yet this " respect- pension as a misfortune, but he charged it as a crime.
But upon whom did he so charge it? Not on the
able Gentleman," whose loyalty was bursting his
bosom, who adored his King and country, never at- Government, who had fairly tome forward, and laid
tempted to go before a Magistrate to give his impor- before Parliament the real state of the country L-not
rant testimony. Why? Because it was false: or if on Parliament, who had deliberately acted upon the
it were true, it only proved that he had not given Report of a Committee of the first respectability—
evidence, because he loved Oliver while he was a not upon the People of England, as had been most
traitor, and hates him now he is an informer (cheers). unjustly insinuated, but to whose steady loyalty the
It was impossible, however, not to feel assured that utmost homage was paid—but upon those designing
the whole story was a recent invention, and no man and malignant wretches Nvho attempted, out of the
but an idiot or a dolt could believe a word of it— distresses of a day, to effect the desolation of thi
(Much collusion ; Mr. Lambton rose)—uf course he work of ages; who looked upon the famished peasant
did not mean to apply the epithets dolt and idiot to and ruined artisan, not as subjects of compassion, bur
the Honourable Gentleman ; all be (Mr. Canning) as instruments of crime—(Gros of hear!) -Much hat
meant to say was, that he should consider himself a often been said about the cruelty of despotism an..
dolt and an idiot if he gave the hefare-mentioned the selfishness of warriors—nay, sometimes the other
statement a single moment's belief—(hear,hear).— side of the House had expressed its indignation at du
It was said that the House would desert its duty if it language of Bonaparte, who had considered the my
did not hear the evidence of all those respectable rind inhabitants of a great empire as mere raw m.
anonyini ; and though the Honourable Member for terials for working out his own false glory—(hcar.
Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) had justly remarked, that All this was bad enough : but what could be said of
if gone into the inquiry would be interminable ; yet those who, even without this motive, which, peril;
the Honourable Member for Norwich (Mr. vv. Smith) cious as it was, had yet its dazzling charms for %%ea'
had persisted in his demand, that the private _ human nature; what shall be said of those who with
charac
ter of Oliver should be dissected; that all the private cold calculation enter the cottage of poverty, and
transactions of his life should be ripped up ; that an instead of sympathizing with the condition of the
inquiry should be set on foot to ascertain whether he wretched inhabitant and his starving family, calmly
hail regularly paid his tailor's bill, and of how many gauge and span his misery, not for the purpose of
chips and shavings he had cheated his master, the relief, but to observe his capability of mischief; not
carpenter. In short, a Chip and Shaving Committee to rescue him front ruin, but to see how tar he '
was to be appointed, with power, instead of persons, fitted to be an agent to assist in ruining his Constitte
papers, and records, of sending for surveyors, buil- dun and his country?—(/tear, hear ).—These were the
men against whom the crime of intending violation
ders, hatchets, planes, and carpenter's rules ; with a
special appointment to inquire into the merits of to the Constitution was chargeable.—these were th
three indictments, •two suits in the Court of King's men against .whom the suspension of the Habe:
Bench, and a disputed award—(laughter). These Corpus was aimed ; yet these were the men who v.-e-
-were the matters to be referred to a Select Commit- to lie put in the judgment-seat, while Ministers v.v.
tee--(hear, hear, hear). The private character of Oli- to be tried on the accusation of their evideme—
ver was doubtless a point of- some importance ; but (Louricrie.; of hear, hear, hear). But the Honour
no man disputed that intelligelkce respecting plots able Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) had made, i
a
against the State, in nine cases out of ten, oiten must seems, a most ingenious discovery ; he h d faun
arrive through polluted channels: it could only be that, as the vt hole nation were dote: mined on Parli.
obtained from repentant traitors, from accomplices, mentaryiteform,Ministers had no other means of say itt
or from informers ; and though there initl.t he those therm elves than by invet-.ting plots and conspiracies.
whose minds were so philosophically turned, that Did the Ho:mutable llaront-i imagine that he coul,
they would wish all discoveries to he . providential. persuade any one that this ....-as the real state of tan
rather than employ such agents, still lie 4a-as one rase? Did he imagine diet by arty mode of division
of those who held that it was ptudent to employ
..): intiltiplicatioa ....Inch he might adopt for the pre
human means to maintain human, in:Ain't-ions.—
: ent:.tion c I .:is ltetin-in Petitions, whether he present
An Honourable Gentleman had attempted to draw a
eel then: in tens, and signed by thousands, or in rhos
distinction between an informer and a sl,v : but it sailds, aild iig.icd by tens--Did he hope I,tt he cot.l
},cr.tsade the liouse, or himself, that Parliament.ty
was a distinction that would nut bear examination.—
this—, Itc:Orni was a iavuutite nic‘t•x:e v. it h the People
For what was the state of the case? Simply

tlae
l,iptions of
:en opposite
time, aposs
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danger of the
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the conduct c
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ith a hope
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