Star.
London, England, 1816-03-06 00:00:00

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metliaie vicinity of Edinburgh), were brought up,
read, andordered to lie bn the
On the iseestionthat the Petition from Horsham
against the Property Tax should be lead,
Mr. HURST stated that this Petition (which he
presenteahk would be teund to contain complaints
on the subject of the Civil List. He expressed his en-
tire coneurieece in the whole contents of the Petition.
Sir C. BURRELL wished to set the Houle right
on the sobject of the Civil List, that no unfounded
notions might go abroad concerning it. This List
did not contain. exclusively the sums called for to
support 'the expenses of the Court, but included items
for various necessary branches of the public expend; •
ture. As to the Property Tax, he expressed his
cOniplete disapprobation of the proposal for its con-
tinuance in any degree, during the present extreme
distt cis of all classes of the community. To press
upaoi the people with this Tax during their present
calamities, would have the same ruinous effect upon
the nation at large, as is produced upon a Bank when
what is called a run is made upon it, while suffering
from some tempcirary difficulties,
The Petition was then' read, and ordered to lie
on the Table.
Mr. THORNroN presented a Petition from the.
inhabitant's of Clapham, against the Property Tax.
He 'toted, at the same time, that he would not
trouble the House with any statement of his opinions
respecting the continuance of this tax, because be
• did not think it was the proper time to do ;o,
until the regular debate upon it; when he had heard
the proposal of the Chancellor of the Eichtquer.—
Until then, it was not the proper time to discuss the
expediency of the measure ; and he could not but
think that the course Which had been pursued, of
delivering opinions upon it, before the regular time
for doing so—before it was even known what altera-
tions were to he 'imposed, was entirely subversive of
the deliberative functions of Parliament. For his
own part, he should only now say, that unless the
Tax was very much modified, as it affected especially
the Agricultural interest, he could not agree to it.
Lord MILTON was surprised to hear the Ho-
nourable Gentleman say that it was not a proper
time to discuss this Tax on presenting Petitions
against it from all quarters. He would like to
know what was to be considered the proper time for
the discussion ? Were they to wait till the Chancellor
of the Exchequer actually imposed the Tax ?
The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie
on the Table.
Sir ALEXANDER DON, on presenting a Peti.
tion from the Landholders of the County of Rox-
burgh, on the same subject with the other Petitious
which had been presented, wished to call the atten-
tion of the House to the very moderate tone of the
Petitioners. They did not pray for the absolute re-
peal of the Property Tar—they did not even hint at
that consummation devoutly to be wished for,"
the total abolition of the Tax they only asked that
it might be so modified as to remove those grievances
so heavily experienced by the Landed Interest, from
the way in which it was now levied. He could
scarcely hope, under the circumstances in which the
country was now placed, that this Tax could be to-
tally dispensed with ; but his expectations would be
dis%rpointed—the expectations of Scotland would be
di:al:pointed, if the Landed- Interest was now to be
pressed upon with the burden of this Tax, as heavily
as during the war.
On the question that this should be read,
Mr. BROUGHAM did not rise to oppose it, but
to express his approbation of the moderate tone of
the petitioners—a tone so very moderate, that, in
fact, he thought sorre of the moderation could have
been dispensed with, and they might have ventuted
to state their real feelings and opinions on the subject.
It might perhaps surprize the Honourable Baronet
to hear him say, that he very well knew what were
the real feelings and opinions entertained by the coun-
try Gentlemen in the county from whence the peti-
, tion came ; bet he would state a fact which would
explain how be knew that the expression of these real
opinions would have carried these Gentlemen a little
beyond the very moderate prayer cf ais petition.
some years ago he had the honour of a very confi-
dential communication with the landholders of that
part of the country, on the subject of the distresses
under which the agricultural interest there laboured,
especially from this Tax; and he had at the same
time attended a meeting of the principal men in the
county, held for the purpose of considering the most
eff,ctual means of relittv;ng those distresses. The
principal subject of complaint then was against the
Tenants' rroperty Taxi and those of the Assessed
Taxes, in ti.e schetide B. At this meeting it was
proposed to draw up a petition to be presented to
Parliament, mentioning their distresses, and praying
to be heard by Counsel at the Bar of the House.
This was in 1808; and he ought also to state, that
be had been a party to these proceedings in the capa-
city of Counsel for the County. Some years passed
away without any thing farther being done. Having
taken occasion to express his surprise to one of the
Gentlemen of the County, that the Petition had not
yet been presented, be was informed by him that the
design had been for the time abandoned—" For (said
he) my countrymen, I am ashamed to say, are
afraidnf giving offence to at •Noble Lord (since de.
erased) who, with his friends, engross the whole ma-
nagement of the political affairs of Scotland." And
skis it was which caused the suppression of that pcti.
tion. The House, after this statement, would not
be surprised to hear him say, that the real sentiments
of the petitioners would have been expressed, if the
tone of the petition had been somewhat less moderate.
Mr. W. DUNDAS said, that the Honourableand
Learned Gentieman who had just sat down had taken
upon himself a task quite new to the House. Though
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman was not
now Counsel for the Petitioners, he took upon him.
self to state their real opinions. Did the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman pretend to know what were
pow the sentiments of these Gentlemen 1 It was ar-
rogating somewhet too much for bins to say to the
House-4, This Petition now presented to you does
not contain the expression of their real feelings and
opinions—you must not believe what they now say--
I know much better what they think—l held meet-
ings with them seven years ago—l know what they
thought diens and therefore you refer to me, and
- not to their own words, if you would know what
they now wish."—(Hear, hear)—Nliisht not the pres-
stire•which time upon these persons us 1808 have been

since relieved'? But if the House was to believe the
Honourable and Learhed Gentleman, in 1808, the
landholders of Roxhurghshire -bound themselves by
an opinion from which they can never, for all time
hereafter, never, under any change of circumstances
deviate. '['he lohourable Gentleman complained
of the tune of this Petition. but he would ask who
dictated the opinions said to have been expressed in
1808 ? In short, it would seem that no credit was
'to be given to the Petition, but all to the HOMVAT•
able and Learned Gentleman.
Mr. 1341OUGHAM said, the rules of debate pre.
vented him from answering the Honourable Gentle.
man by speaking on the present question ; but, be
would take the very first opportunity of vindicating
himself from his attack.
Alter a few words !foul Lord blwrou, the Peti-
tion was brought up. and on the question that it
should be read.

Mr. BROUGHAM said, that a more extranr-
dinary mode of attack than that which had been used
agiinst him by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Dundas) be had never heard. In the first place he
had thrown out a pretty broad hint that he objected
to the tune of the Petition, because be was not now.
employed as Counsel for the petitioners. Was the
Honourable Gentleman not aware—supposin4 that
such a feeling could be admitted into the mind of
any man—was he not aware that it was not possible
for any Member of that House te act in the capacity
of Counsel for any set of men in any matter before
that House ? The Hum Gentlemin then said that
he took offence at the moderate tone of this petition ;
he did no such thing. He took no offence at the
language of it; but he ventured to state that the
prayer of die petition only went half way in expres-
sing die opinion of the petitioners ; because it did not
ask for that which alone could afford them relief.—
And he said this too—ahat this moderation of tone
was caused by a fear of giving offence in a certain
quarter. He meant no insinuation against the con-
, duct of the petitioners; he only said that in the quarter
lof the kingdom whence this petition came, the peo-
ple were under improper political influence—that in
Scotland the rights and liberties of the subject were
not so Mild) ill the stihj,:ct% chvn keeping as in Eng-
land. The Honouralile Gentleman would not need
any more particular expianation •as to the quarter
whence that influence came, cf vt hich he now com-
plained. The warmth evinced by the Hon. Gentle.'
men, was the strongest commentary upon his state-,
meat ; and it was for the information of the House,
that he now stated, that in Scotland there was no-
thing like a due representation of the people; no
such thing as a popular election was known in Scot-
land. In the towns, the cities, and the counties in
that part of the kingdom, the elective franchise was
monopolised by some twenty individuals—in many
of the couuties there were only thirteen electors—
in the most extensive counties not above 90 or 100,'
and only one or two in which there were so many.
He would state. moreover, that the political influ-
ence which Government possessed in Scotland—and
whicb poss.:Wog, it exerted, was the cause why there
was no popular representation. It was an undenia-
ble foe(' that there never was any thing like a repre-
sentation of the sentiments of the people of Scotland,
ualess when on some occasion of urgent necessity
the people were called together to express their opi-
nions. He wished the House to know these circum-
stances, and also that the Petitioners would have gone
much farther but for the influence which he had
mentioned—but that the p ditical defects of the
Constitution prevented the expression of their sen-
timents.

Mr. W. DUNDAS said, he had not stated that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman objected to the
Petition because lie was not now Counsel for the Pe-
titioners. In the concluding part of his speech the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman complained of the
way in which Scotland was repfesented, because for-
, smith it was not such as he would wish. The send►
ments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on this
subject were very well known—but he would tell him
this, that till he c./Mil persuade Parliament to over-
turn the whole of that system under which that
country so Jong 11-,mislieu—to overthrow all the
rig is (it c,rpor4tions, he would in vain attempt to
persuade the House into a belief of the existence of
the del.ecti which he saw in it, or that it could be
improved by anystich alterations as he would propose.
Mr. J. P. GRANT was not at all surprised at the
anxiety of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. I)undas)
that no change should be made in the system of re.
presentation in Scotland. The petitions which that
Honourable Gentleman this evening presented to the
House from his Constituents, and the speech with
which they had been accompanied, was a pretty
strong proof that their sentiments were not very
ae-
curately represented by those of their Member. It
the system of giving instructions to Representatives
were adopted in Scotland, he believed that there was
not one individual in the populous city which the
Honourable Gentleman represented, who would not
have instructed him to oppose the Property Tax._
The Petition was then read, and ordered_ to lie on
the Table.

Other petitions against the Property Tax were pre-
sented to the House from the following quarters :
From the inhabitants of Lymington, in Hampshire,
complaining also of the conduct of Ministers in
maintaining a standing army, to support a foreign
Government against the wishes of the people—from
the residenters in the district of Upper Annandale,
complaining also of the Malt Tax, and that on
Farming Houses—from the freeholders, agricultu-
rists, and traders, of the County of Southampton—
from the inhabitants of the borough of Great Grimsby
—from the landholders and others in the Hundred,
of Din, in the County of Norfolk, complaining also
ot the number of sinecure places and pensions—and
from the inhabitants of the town ot Cambridge.
They were severally brought'up, read, and ordered
to lie on the table.
Sir ALEXANDER HOPE presented a petition
from certain inhabitants of Linlithgow against the
-Property Tax, and praying likewise for some &here-
' tion in the Distillery Laws.
On thiquestion that this petition should be read,
M-. PRESTON, amid many interruptions, by
cries for die question, spoke against tlitt Property Tax,
and on the distresses of the agriculturak interest. On
this latter abject, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was proceeding to read what he called " a history of
the distresses or the country," being a paragraph from
a County Newspapers but was stopped by calls of

"Order" and de Question." The petition was then.
read ; and n the question for it to lie on the table,
Mr: PONSONBY said he would be glad to know
him the Noble Lord opposite, whether this Petition
same from those whOrn be bad last night been pleased
to describe as clamixonlly running down this Tax,
because it was a measure of Administration ? He
would be glad to know if it was on his ( Mr. Pun-
sonby's) side of the House that the cry had been
raised against this Tex, which now resouailed frem
every part of the country-if the Noble Lord thought
he owed the indisposition which was felt by the whole
nation for this Tax to the conduct of the Opposition ?'
But if the Noble Lord would only inquire, he would
find that public opinion had never been so general,
so universal against any measure. Such was the ge-
neral opihiou upon the subject. that if the Gentlemen,
who sat opposite to the Noble Lord had wished it,
they could not have excited such a feeling of ani-
mosity against the Tax : it was a feeling so general,
that no effort was necessary to raise an opposition to
it. As to the political artifices of which the Noble
Lord last night talked, be could only for himself say
that he knew none of them. For his own conduct,
be bad always opposed this Tax—he had never vo-
ted for it in his life, under any circumstances what-
ever, because he thought the principles established by
the law for collecting this Tax were quite repugnant
,to public liberty. The Noble Lord had praised the
Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the Weise for
their wisdom in increasing this Tax; but be did not
feel himself included in the Noble Lord's compli-
ment. But was there no dffereuce in the imp osejen
of this Tax in the time of war ? Every petition
which had been presented to the House stated th it it
had been borne cheerfully during the war. *lt only
remained for him to express a wish that his M.ijoay's
Ministers would inform themselves of the real ()pi-
nion of the people. If they did sit they would find
that the universal opposition vita which their pro.
posal was met was not owing to those Gentlemen
in that House who sa, opposite to them.
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that it was
not strictly in order to notice what had prised on a
former debate, although it certainly was in the com-
petence of any Honourable Member to agitate what-
ever subject he pleased on a questiJn concerning
petition. But he could not think that it was the best
way to discusi a great and important measure in that
incidental way : be certainly thought that it was bet-
ter to enter regularly upon the debate of so serious a
question, rather than to proceed by interrogations. He
did not impute to the Gentlemen on the other side id
the House, that they had raised an unjust clamour
against the Pre, arty Tax; and when it was conside-
red that they were the persons who (as he had al-
ways thought; very wisely,) raised it from six and a
half per cent. to ten per cent. surely they were the
last who, in political decency, could come forward to
abuse the Tax as iniquitous and unconstitutional.—
All that he wished from these Gei!;lemen was to lay
aside clamour, and to come to 11:c discussion of the
subject with nothing but fair argument. If they did
so, he was prepared to contend for the expediency of
continuing the Tax, not upon a peace principle, but
a war principle. During the adntinistratiox of Lord
Grenville, when the Tax was increased, and when
himself and his friends sat on the other side of the
House, they did not attempt to oppose the measure,
nor to raise any clamour against it; and during the
whole time that they sat in opposition they supported
Government in all the proper measures which they
had brought forward. But he did say, that the
Gentlemen now on the other side of the House at-
' tempted to clamour down this Tax, instead of argu-
ing the question : and this was shewn by their wish-
ing to place Ministers in such a situation as to oblige
them either to interrupt the public business, or to
leave what they said unanswered. The modified
continuation of the Tax was proposed on exactly the
same principle on which it bed been originally pro.
posed—namely, that of carrying the country through
the war and its difficulties; and on this principle he
was prepared to argue its expediency. He would
maintain, that the temporary difficulties and dis-
tresses of the country would be best relieved by sup-
porting the public credit, and that the public credit
would be most effectually supported by the modified
continuance of this Tax. Until the whole of the war
establishment. was got rid of, it would be best to re-
tain this Tax in a mitigated form. The Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman (Mr. Punsonby) was, no doubt,
correct when he said he that had never voted fur this
tax; but be forgot to inform the House of the reason.
Ile fact was, that the Right Honourable Gentleman
had no opportunity of giving his vote for or against
it, as the 'Tax had been originally laid on before the
Uaion with Ireland ; and wheel the political friends
tef the Right Honourable Gentlemen increased it to
ten per cent. it happened that the Right Honourable
Gentleman was employed in Ireland in discharging
the duties of the office which he then held. This was
a very good cause why the Right Hon. Gentleman
had never voted for this Tax. But was the Right
Honourable Gentleman prepared to say, that if, at
that time, he had not been absent, he would have op-
posed that administration—that he would, on the
question of this Tax, have voted against his political
connections ? If the Right Honourable Gentleman
would now state that he would have acted so, the
House must, of course, believe him ; but he was cer-
tain he could not say that he would. He must colt.
demo that course of proceeding by which the Gentle-
men opposite had carried on ex /Idris debates against
this Tax, attempting by their. clamorous attacks to
oppose a measure which had already so mainly con-
tributed to support the country during a Iceng and
difficult war—which had been the sheet anchor of our
public credit in the hour of danger, and had enabled
us triumphantly to weather the storm. •
Mr. HORNER said, the Noble Lord had r• hayr
ig
said that the recent discussion upon the Property
Tax was an ex parte debate. Such it certainly was,
because it consisted of an unanimous expression of
feelling against the tax, though Ministers had been
unfortunately so much indisposed as nct to be able to
sit m their places to hear it. The Noble Lord had
imputed clamour to this side of the House ; but the
strongest epithets which be had heard used against
the Property Tax, had come from the Gentlemen
who were in the habit of voting with the Noble Lord.
He hoped they would take for themselves all the re-
proaches he had uttered. The Noble Lord talked of
the inconsistency of those who 'spoke against that
tax, alter having supported it under Lord Grenville's
Adedietietratioa, but he wits t
the same time forced

to admit that it was in time of elm not ot
tit
objecthat thetyetiith..l.lßguivteiiittli vnoi.t.evsttoo
ted to its revival nit any
(Kota aCCollitt ht), t,7
in peace, a war impos.. slicitli not be tx.3",,ed
gTuhaagt.ew(ads tal I,ri ge
mut
itenl
eallbitts:nidpe. em
t
the
ya anthde. Gmeftifully citlicerfA th;;;:,1;•;,1
agagr odalntstirt
same ground. The tetult of all if e rifj:e 1.0141
wars and negocinions, of those tLtlies 3
had tranquillized the world, and bater.d Ca. rec,:
of Europe in ties of indissolubl: uttion, wa%
the basis of the renewal of this tax w 3 a
ciple ! He hyped the 1-linve would r•tsnler;:-;
to be misled : that as it would see uo : °eta (IN
foreign wars, it would see no eccas;on for wviovr
sures, and would vote no tat on war
on principles c'neACC. The N:•ble Lord was
tented with alluding to the conduct a Lcrd
vale's Administration on this subj:Ani b„tit:73.
great merit vs himself ant to tise Gentlertel4la.
sided with him, for not hccir; trade 2 straa,,l
sition to the increase of the Property Tax, th‘en:
posed by the Ministers of the time. It was te,*1..1
the Noble Lord and his co:;.:*.Nes lead nab:
an open and manly opposition in that 'lice, hat
had conducted it el .!wl: .re. (Thar, hem., Iwo Z*
the opftwiii,,n.) ilc ( :kir. Horner) htd 044
Palliament shortly after the drat'a
remt mh•red weal AI the occasions oi) which eel.,
had distinguishet hirnsi.if by his appe6t.7.
He had made a sort of fightcit ti‘e
the Slave. Ttade, and 11 td been t lie of tf,
rt
stood in the gap. Wizen the Bill In, te;,11;•':1
of t'.e /slarth Ame:iea and We...t India Tiafh
b.:en prur:osed, he l•ad mustered a sq--ng fonnte.;,
rat:WA:IC, agaicst which neither the
Luid nor any of his colleagues, lei* ,r nalear,7
had si;ice, b.r ;cars, had any cling ter say ft t
t:: us that I.e h.id conducted his opposaios
Rothe, but he ir.td carried on a slow, deep, ijut:z
iaiiigue at Windsor, against the Administra4
(lirar, &dr.) And uu what subject I Os fik(4.
Etuancliatien. (Hear, hear.) On s qui;
whether the least portion of relief should be grak4
to the Noble Lord's own native fellow Sibigw..
(II car, ;mar.)
CASTLEREAGH had not prided Lied'
on tin: filth oppo:tioir which he and his calluva
had made to the inZiCiiSe of the l'ropettrially
Lori Grenville's Administration ; for be tale
thought that one of the agiunt dm*
position was its activity!

Mr. TIEiiNEY claimed the same meTitoN.
Noble Lnrd, for he had re: clanrured age ftv
Property Tax when the return of Bonapau h
occasioned and k.stified its revival. Bat the
Lord ought nit to in.;ulg,2 in such language as:4
had done. It he calicd the language of the mita
Opposition clamour, hz should say that the Osys.
tion of the Noble Lord hod been facticns.—(4
hear.)—But he was ready to make rnaly alminxt
the No';le L,:.(1 was in a &toilful state cl coT•
irritation. If it hzd Liten possible by any me.sna
get acc'ess to his bed•chaml.er last night, he
doubt tare Nchle Lord would h Ave been seen gni
in his sleep, and inco!:e-.:itly
Property Tax, Pet:lions, opt; P.:: liamentary
—(Laughter.)—To sute, it vi.t.s rottual fat ta
Noble Lord should not ilk .t Petitions againga at
which he wished to Inc: upon the silica. Iza
when the whole country petitioned again it, se -e
the Gentlemen of this sitle cf the Rah* tolsetitir4
with using fac..ious language, blouse they kerdi
and earnestly oppos-ii a Tax which the bran to
jetted He, however, could nut help lettl4t
that he had never scen the Noble Lord start lr
' triumphantly than be had done List night. TlicEt
halt, that was to say, the fits: hi ur and an hik i
his speech, h td been spent in mere sill dcence. lx
had at last, lixwever, b:-ou2;it an occuiatiun.i;c.;
him (Mr. Tiern.,y) for voting he
time of war. Ile had done all Le could agaiut
at the time it w.,s prnpot,l J. But, coilital t:.
expeezati ;its, he had found thac tt.e c.,ur..ry ~••
I ceivt.J it in LW) Of three years without tms;iloL..l
'And, whm it bad been raised -to 10 per
one syllable had been mid through. the wll6lecti.:l
against it. He did trot see why he should be
0$ by the Noble Lord, merely because it sailed
purpose of the debate. One of his objections tc;:::
t.:x at present was, that it would occ..sion tit bic,

of a solemn contract between the Crom: anit
c-ithitry. But then the Noble Lord *attemiy&
elude that difficulty, by saying that we owe AI.
It WAS a pity th..tt he had not iccollectel that •
he had moved an Address to the Print-

congratulating him for the gbr ions and s. cure
which had been ccuciuded. Ti.e Noble
hot and cold at the same nionmit. When he wai

to congratulate the Throne, 112 said we stee
peace; but, when he wanted to impcse an treyloo
tax on the country, he dtclared Ciat we wars:ice.
—(LuSliter.)—The Noble Lord assured t. 411004
at the seen time, that the country w..s iu el 4:"':l.r
,How then was it at war. ? Oh but, said
Lord, there remains the winding up of the se.
Very well : but the Noble Lord had takni
merit last night to himself and to his coital:oi
cause they had so managed their financial arr.
meats, that peace would not drag in her tram 01
the expenses of war. All such c,iiitradictilr,s,
ever, he was willing
to attribute to the Nobl: La'
state of health.—(Laughter.)—The Noble hard
said. that he would persevere. be the represcrtri
of the country whatever they might. He weu;d.
them factious, but he would give way to
but a vote of that House. Would he give sear
vote of that House, the freq sense of every Mems'l.
But it he gained -that vote, would it be tae unt6
the Home he would nave obtained, and not reier
fresh display of the influence of the Crown ?—(thi
hear.)—What the Nobly. Lord called clam*, e
the real sense of the people of England.
his colleagnes wished to perpetuate the prioorb.
the Property Tax. Their object was not the eald
up of the war. At the end of• two years, leb4
they might now say, they did not mean to g"
the Tax, unless the other sources of revenue
have experienced an increase equivalent toils
Their real intention was to make it a put of the
tem of taxation of England.—(Hear. /mar, hes.
The Noble Lord had said that his call had net
answered; but now it had, though perhaps-6°i
his lull satisfaction.; In tact, he bad never scell