Star.
London, England, 1826-11-22 00:00:00

imam hem sway danger with which It was threatened. and la
mow It from every evil which is abw actually suffered. He now
begged leave to second the modes for the Address.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that it had often fallen to his
lot to complain of the modern practice of withholding
from the Members of that House all information of the
contents of the King's Speech. He recollected when
the practice seks—to communicate to both oides of the
House, withoht distinction, the leading topics of the
Speech----a plactice which, however irregular, was, he
mtht be allowed to say, attended with very considerable
convenience. Often as be had urged this topic, how-
ever, of this he .was. deprived by the contents of the
Speech. He could not expect to be listened to, no man
could preserve a grave face if he were heard to corn-
'plain of not having had the opportunity of two or three
aLrys previous knowledge, in order to meditate upon
contents of a Speech, which was composed from
beginning to end of blanks • which confined itself to
saying absolutely nothing,-this was the character
'of the Speech, and the appearance of the House, even
if he might be permitted to allude to that, and still
more the language of the Hon. Members who bad
so ably moved and seconded the Address, proved
that such was the general opinion entertained of it.—
Now let it not be thought that he meant to find fault
with the framers of the Speech—the system was to con-
sider the King's Speech, merely as a practice of decent
civility, and accordingly to make it say as little as pos.
Bible, and the only observation that could be made was,
that the system had in this instance attained to an ex-
ti aordinary degree of perfection. He confidently ex-
pected that by and by the practice of opening the Ses-
sion by a Speech from the Throne would be altogether
discontinued, as a useless, and he did not mean to speak
harshly, an unseemly ceremony. The Honourable
Members who had moved and seconded the Address,
had been compelled to escape from the nothingness of
the Speech ; It offered no points upon which they
could fix, and they had no reserve but in digression.—
His Hon. and Learned Friend was, like himself, a mem-
ber of that profession, which is supposed to endow who-
ever belonged to it with the faculty of making a speech
with or without a subject ; yet without digressing from
the King's Speech, he had found it impossible to make
nnything of his task. It presented, indeed, a point of
contrast as well as a point of resemblance to the coun-
try, which they had heard described as being fertile as
well as Sat.—(Laughter).—Upon one point of the
Speech he thought it necessary to remind his Hon. and
Learned Friend of that rule or maxim of the law, which
said that deception is apt to lurk ander generalities. His
Hon. and Learned Friend had expressed some alarm
that retrenchment was about to be carried to IC dan

£elous length. He had less experience of King's Speeches
•+tt}d of estimates than himself, or he would not have had
his apprehensions excited by professions so vague and ge-
neral as those of the Speech,that the estimates were likely
, to be too low. For himself,he should have remained quite
free from any alarm of that nature, even if the Speech
had contained the most positive and distinct pledge that
rigid economy should be introduced into our establish-
ments. They were told, indeed, that the estimates should
be as low as the exigencies of the country would admit,
which was saying just as much and no more than had
always been professed, even in the most extravagant
times. He was desirous that his Honourable Friend
• should be comforted, and he could assure him that

even if the Speech bad been full of the strongest pro-
fessions, the most solemn and unequivocal pledges that
the strictest economy was about to prevail—that the
wishes and the necessities of the country were for once
`to be consulted—be might still have remained free from
alarm, and that the very first page of the very 6r at esti-
mates laid before the House would be sufficient to
convince him that there was aa such danger as he ap-
prehended; and to stew him what was the value of such
professions upon an occasion, and in sach a place.
—Among the various omissions of the Speech, the
fist he should notice was one which had been ill sup-
plied by one of the digressions of his Honourable
Friend—he meant the subject of Ireland; and another
was this very subject of economy. It did strike him
that the welfare, and even the preservation of the
country, urgently demanded that the affairs of Ireland
be seriously considered, and he was persuaded that
every man in the country felt as he did upon the subject.
Was it not then an inexcusable omission, that from the
beginning to the end of the Speech the name of Ireland
was not mentioned? This circumstance strongly re-
minded him of a King's Speech which was made at the
commencement of the American war. At that day Ame-
rica was the great subject which engrossed public atten-
tion; the name of America quivered upon every man's
bp, but in the Ying's Speech America was not once
noticed, either by name or by allusion. So was Ireland
omitted at the present day: In the case of America
nothing favourable to her was either intended or under-
stood by the omission. He had heard that the first man
who promulgated in America the account of this Speech
was cast into prison as a satirist and libeller, and till the
official intelligence arrived, his report was not believed.
So at the present day in Ireland, when it is reported
that the Royal Speech has omitted all mention of that
country, no man, without authentic proof, will find it
possible to believe the assertion. He should have failed
in his duty if he bad suffered one day to pass without
protesting against the omission, or without declaring his
expectation of shaving a good reason for that omis-
sion. The best reason which could be given, the
reason which he hoped to hear, would be a firm
resolution on the part of Government to do jus-
tice to that ill treated and unfortunate country.—
As to retrenchment, it might perhaps be said that it was
time enough to advert to that subject; but from the
vague generality of the Speech, and from reports that
were abroad, and which were certainly to some extent
confirmed by outward and visible signs, he was led to
expect that propositions were to be made which sa-
voured of anything rather than of economy; which
propositions, if brought forward, he doubted if they
could be carried in that House; but of this at least he
was certain, that they could not be carried without
drawing down upon them the loud and general repro-
liation of the people. The distress, not of the raanufac-
twers only, but of the agricultural classes also,.ought
sorely to deter the Government from hazarding such
propositions. Of that distress he would now only
say, that it had been ascribed in a great measure
to causes which so far from being the true ones,
had been rather the causes of mitigation, and had af-
forded whatever had existed in the nature of a set off to
the general pressure ot calamity. But be the causes of
distress what they may, one means of alleviation was in
their power, that was retrenchment—the repeal ot
noxious taxes,—the abolition of every useless expense,
and it was one which the people of England had a
tight, and they had a duty to enforce. In the present
csicumstances of the country, it was imperative upoill

them to cat down to the lowest point ivory Wary,
civil, military, and naval, leaving set a • farthing of,
that revenue so hardly wrung, although cheerinlly
paid, from an impoverished and distressed people,
to be unnecessarily expended. Let them do this,
and they will satisfy the people of England. Give
them, then, the satisfaction of knowing that, whilst
they suffer under the pressure of unbeatable distress,
you will not fail to 'do all that can be done for its
alleviation. Talk of palaces—talk of architectural or.
nansents--..why, if they bad the feelings of aßritish House
of Commons, of the men who, in former days, have
composed it, they must know that the purest ornaments
whisk architccture can of will be unlidalketlignincee, whilst the
people of England are In distress. He bad leaseilk Me Amy te
say thus much ; and whatever obloquy atiebt be east upon him,
whatever might be thought of his conduct In any qquarter, be mold
not on the first meeting of a new Parliament act atberwfse than be
bad done, when the Speech from the Throne maintained an abso.
late silence =tat great questions of giving Ireland her rights, mid
'forded no satisfactory assurance of the adoiltioa of that economy
in the expenditure of Government, which the exigencies of the
State so imperiously required.
Mr. Secretary CANNING : I am really, Sir, some-
what at a loss to know what the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman requires, when he speaks of the
balrenness of information in the Speech from the
Throne, and of the necessity of amplification under
which, he says, the Honourable Mover and Seconder
of the Address felt themselves hi consequence. Nor can
I exactly understand the justice of the complaint which
we have heard in such loud intonations from the Hon.
and I.earned Gentleman with respect to the discon-
tinuance of theancient usage of communicating the in-
tended contents of the Royal Speech on the day before
its delivery from the Throne. I undoubtedly recollect,
that during the early period of my experience in Par-
liament, it was the custom, the night before the cow
mencement of a Session, to read to such Membas as
might think proper to assemble to bear it, the Speech
with which the King's Ministers had advised his Ma-
jesty to open the Session. Various inconveniences, how-
ever, which resulted from-that practice, have long oc-
casioned its discontinuance; nor can I now understand
the tendency of the complaint made by the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman; nor conjecture what advan-
tage would have been derived from bringing the Speech
prematurely before the public. Let it, also, Sir, be re-
collected, that, with the discontinuance of a communi.
cation of the intended Speech, a few hours before its
delivery, has grown up another custom, which must
materially counteract any evil, if evil there be, resulting
from such discontinuance ; namely, that it is not now
usual to insert in the Speech any passages which may
call in the Address for any pledge by the House of the
precise course which they may deem it expedient to
adopt ; and, therefore, that, in the present days, the
Speech requires nothing in the Address beyond an or-
dinary end courteous reciprocation of good dispositions.
If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman thinks there
is anything in the Address which will preclude any
Hon. Gentleman who may assent to it from taking
whatever Parliamentary course he may deem most ad-
visable with respect to any of the important questions
that may come under our discussion, •he opposes it on
fair and intelligible grounds. But it is notorious that
that is not the case; and that on this, the first day
of the first Session of a new Parliament, no attempt
whatever has been made to pledge beforehand those
who may concur in the Addles:, to the support of any
measures which his Majesty's Ministers may think ie.
their duty to propose or advocate. There really never
was a Speech from the Throne which, in compliance
with the modern usage to which I have been adverting,
less distinctly called for any such pledge than the
Speech which is now under our consideration. The
truth is, Sir, that Parlisunant has been assembled at the
present season, which, especially since the Union, is un-
doubtedly a very inconvenient period of theiyear, not
for the purpose of precipitating any of those important
discussions which require the fullest attendance
and the meat patient deliberation, but because, in de-
fence of the laws and of the Constitution of the Country,
it has been thought right to call Parliament together to
provide an indemnity for his Majesty's Government in
consequence of the measure by which, although under
what appeared to them to be a great and urgent neces-
sity, they violated those laws, and that Constitution. It
is true, Sir, that, without offering any very great insult
to the laws or to the Constitution, and that, without any
very extravagant stretch of the Royal Prerogative, the
meeting of Parliament might, perhaps, in the present
instance, have been deferred. But although his Majesty's
Ministers felt that the postponement might in this case
have taken place without any great impropriety, they
also felt that the precedent of postponement might be
mischievous. Although they felt as sure of the appro.
batien of Parliament for the step which they took as men
can be who are conscious that they only did that to
which they were prompted by an over-ruling necessity,
they also felt that they should have been wanting in
duty to the King, and in respect to the Constitution, if
they did not advise his Majesty to summon Parliament
expressly for the purpose of passing judgment on the
extent of the necessity to which they submitted,
and on the soundness of the discretion which they had
exercised—(Hear, hear, hear)—On this subject, Sir,
much as I have reason, in common with the House at
large, to admire the speech of the Honourable Seconder
of the Address, and mach as I have reason to be per-
sonally thankful to the Honourable Gentleman for many
of the sentiments which he so ably expressed, I cannot
say that I shall be disposed to claim the approbation of
the House on the grounds stated by DV Honourable
Friend. I am very far from thinking that that is the best
possible state of the law on this important question,
which requires this occasional and irregular interposi-
tion of his Majesty's Government. I am the last man
is this House to argue that such a condition of the law
is desirable ; for it may be remembered, that among
the motives which were urged by me towards the con-
clusion of the last Session of Parliament to induce the
House to agree to the Bill for the introduction of
Bonded Corn, was the expediency of diminishing as
much as possible the necessity for the exercise of
discretion on the subject on the part of his Majesty's
Government. The object, therefore, which we have in
view in the proposed Bill of Indemnity, is not to elicit
the approbation of Parliament of any general custom,
bet to obtain a particular sanction for a particular
measure arising from an evident and unavoidable neces-
sity. If, however,. the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man complains that his Majesty's Speech does not con-
tain any direct intimation of the course which itis his
M ijesty's Ministers intention to pursue with respect to
a subject which at present agitates the feelings of so
large a portion of the community, be will perhaps be
latibtied when I personally aware bias and the House,
chat at a very early period after our next meeting I
shall be prepared, on the part of his Majesty's Go.
vernment, to proposi such measure; with regard to the

'Corn LAM, as in their opinion will be beneficial to the
country, and conciliatory towards all the great interests
involved in the determination of the question—(Hear).
At least, Sir, it shall be shewn that his Majesty's Minis.
ters have no disposition to shrink from the subject; and
I again pledge myself, as the organ of his Majesty'si
Government, that many weeks shall not elapse after
our meeting again, before I will bring it under the con-
sideration of the Houses Such being the case, I trust
that I shall not be considered as saying any thing dis-
respectful to the House, when I declare that I will not
be provoked into any premature or partial discussion of
a question which demands the most full and deliberate
consideration. The Hon. and Learned Gentlemen has
said, that the Hon. Seconder of the Address, in advert-
ing to that passage of the King's Speech which declares
" that the Estimates for the ensuing year shall be formed
with as much attention to economy as the exigencies of
the public service will admit," appeared to entertain an
alarm that the economy alluded to would be excessive,
while, on the other hand, he himself was exceedingly
apprehensive that it would fall infinitely short of what
was requisite. Really, Sir, we ought to feel some saris
faction at having framed a paragraph with such skill
as to excite opinions so contradictory—(A laugh). The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, however, says that it is
an indefinite. Indefinite it necessarily must be, unless
it had been practicafile to introduce details; but I de
assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that the most
extravagant construction which his powerful imagina-
tion can put on the apprehension of the Hon. Seconder
of the Address, is not more extravagant than the an-
tagonist apprehension which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman himself professes to entertain. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman appears to have" some monster
in his thought," the nature of which it is impossible for
me to conjecture. All I can say is, that there is nothing
in the contemplation of his Majesty's Ministers which,
can justify the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's alarm
at that, whatever it may be, for which having no place
in his Majesty's Speech, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man imagines a place elsewhere. (Mr. Brougham said
something across the table, which we were unable to
hear.) Then really, Sir, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man has thrown a Areat deal of very good information
away.--(A laugh). I should be glnd to know on what
terms his Majesty's Government could secure them-
selves from the imputation of criminal expense, on•the
part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. I grant, Sir,
that if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman thinks we
ought, on the spur of a temporary benefit, to cut down
and change all the existing establishments of the conn-
try,—l grant that if that is the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman's project, no such thing is in our intention;
nor I am sure would any such proceeding receive the
sanction of this House, nor even of the people at large,
whom it professed to benefit. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman thinks that the best accompaniment and con-
solation to a suffering people is the suspension of all
public buildings. I am of a contrary opinion. I think
that a continuance of public works must be available
to their relief. To me it appears that, if people want
bread, it is a strange remedy for their distress, to sus-
pend the employment by which alone they can procure
it. While the Character of this country remains what
it is, the decent splendour of the Crown, and the com-
fort of the people will never'be considered incompatible
objects: the dignity of high stations will not be re-
, garded with an envious eye; nor will one class of the
community find any consolation for their own evils, in
pulling down another. Not apprehending that any such
disposition exists in any part of the public, I can assure
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that it is not the in.
tention of his Majesty's Government to carry economy
to such an extent as to induce that public to torn round
and charge us with going into as extreme. The Hon.
and Learned Gentlemanis dissatisfied with the decla-,
Lion in the Speech, that the Estimates shall be formed
with as much attention to economy as the exigencies of
the public service will permit. Does the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman suppose that there are no exigencies
in the public service? Has this country no station to
maintain? Is nothing required from us towards the
maintenance of tranquillity in Europe ? May we not,
at a moderate charge, prevent the occurrence of an evil
which, in a single twelvemonth, would plunge us into
an expense greater than an ill-judged economy would
balance in a course of years? His Majesty says in his
Speech, u that he is exerting himself with unremitting
anxiety, either singly, or in conjunction with his allies,
as well to arrest the progress of existing hostilities, as to
prevent tho interruption of peace in different parts of the
world." Does the Hon. and Learned Gentleman believe
that, in order to effect this object, it is not necessary to
maintain a considerable naval establishment? If we
look at New World, are there not contests going on
which humanity requires should be put an end to ? In
Europe have we not an ally whose condition solicits our
aid ; an ally in such a situation, that any bssitatiou or
fluctuation of policy, on our part, might invite an at.
tack upon her P May not our presence on the spot pre-
vent an aggression oa the power to which I allude? Is
not the English fleet now in the Tagus, an obviously
wise and economical expense? Will it not be advisable
ro continue that expense, if it is calculated to prevent
an explosion, the consequences of which no one can
foresee? Do not let it be supposed, by my adopting
this illustration of the necessity of a certain establish•
menu, that the policy of his Majesty's Government would
he to meddle with the internal affairs of other countries.
I trust we know the limits of our duty too well. It is
our duty to take care that the frontiers of Portugal shall
not be crossed by an offensive army; but it is not
our duty to give one faction or party an ascendancy
over the rest. The force which we maintain at Lis-
bon, therefore, is maintained, not with any view of in-
terfering in the internal affairs of Portugal; not with
any view of intimidating any party in Portugal; but
simply to prevent such acts of foreign hostility as in
their consequences might involve Europe in war. It is
on that ground, Sir, that I take. our conduct towards
Portugal as an illustration of the wisdom and necessity
of maintaining certain establishments; and I challenge
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who desires us to
cut down all our establishments, to put his hand at this
moment on any of our establishments as unnecessary, in
which I will not sheer that there are the seeds of safety;
in which I will not shew that there are the roots of a
well ordered, a well regulated, and a permanent econo-
my. That is the sense in which the Speech adverts to
possible exigencies of the public service. There is no
intention under that name to shelter any of those extra-
vagant propositions, the probability of which the Hon.
anti Learned Gentleman appears to contemplate. There
i
is no part of the policy now pursued by this country de-
pendent on the establishments of the country which I
am not ready to go through;point by point, and shew
the real efficacy and ultimate economy of the establi.b.
meat which we maintain with reference to it; and that,,

Sir, u I conceive, is the *Ay pomnib =Mr -.Mei
can give to the conjecteces of the Hoe. mid Lensed
Gentleman. With regard, Sir, to the conditimi of
Ireland, I shall only observe, that the absence of any
topic in the Speech from the Throne does not at all prd-
clude Parliament from entertaining the consideration of
that topic, if it should think fit so to d?. The ffporth
states those points *Joie respecting wliich Pe is in-
tended by his Majesty's Government to call on Par-
liament to adopt some proceeding. It is not our in-
tention at present to bring before Parliament any
specific measure respecting Ireland; but that will
not prevent any individual -Member from agitating the
subject. I will not, however be tempted, by what has
fallen from the Hon. and Learned Gent. to say another
word about it. The Hon. and Learned Gent. knows
as well as I do, and I know as weU as the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman knows, that if in the coarse of the
Session the question to which I allude should come under
our consideration, I shall be ready to meet—not the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, for our opinions on the
question agree,—but the question itself, as I always have
met it, with the most anxious and determined attention.
Sir, not having been able exactly to understand the
purpose of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech,
but understanding that he does not mean to ohject to
the Address, I have perhaps said enough en the pteaeut
occasion ; but I cannot sic down without congratulating
the House on the accession of talents which they have
gained in the Hon. Member who opened the debate of
to-night. I trust, from the promising commencement
of that Hon. Member's Parliamentary career, that he
will not confine himself to this or to any partictihr
see bject, but that he will illustrate by the display
of his abilities the various important questions which
from time to time come under our consideration, I niay--
also be allowed to say, that so far from my le:ling the
part which the Hon. Mover, and the Hon. Seconder ifif
the Address have taken this night the lea acceptable in conseleence
of their decleratiens that they were determined to depend upon
their own as the subjects which may come under their
amid thet they would endeavour to keep their minds free
from prejudice mid open toconviction; and that they were resolved
to mix a general legion of his Majesty's Government with e gear
laelartrit at indspendence ; I experience the greatest pkasutu Mt
s the statemet. Suck are the minds from whom we hope
for the meet bandit, because tbe most honourable, aid; and It is
cal with clack iptilleedons, and soder such restricting*, thatt his
Majesty's uweentemst will ask the support of any man who now
sits in this House for the first time—(Hoar, bear.)
Mr. HUME 'then addressed the House. He_con.
tended that it had not been the custom to omit in the
King's Speech all mention of any contemplated mea-
sures; and quoted, for the purpose of establishing the
assertion. the Royal Speech of February, 1829, which
promised a reduction of taxes, and several other similar
instances. The Hon. Gentleman contended generully
against the maintenance of -existing establishments, anti
as favour of a redaction of the national expenditure...
Far from arming with the paragraph in the Royal
Speech, which intimated that the provincial distress had
abated, he was firmly convinced it was rather on the
increase. He was convinced too that the Burmese war
was anything but an " unisvoidable," or honourable one.
—The nation was now, in the eleventh year of peace,
keeping up a more expensive establishment than in the
time of the American war. During the last nine years,
from 1817 to 1825, the amount of taxes collected fmna
the productive industry of Ragland amounted to 531
millions, making an average .ot 59 millions annually,.
The expense of the army, including ordnance, had been
88 millions, and the naval expenditure was 54 millions,
making on the whole a peace establishment of 142 mil.
lions. The civil establishment in the mean time had
averaged at 26 millions, and the debt was 90 millions.
which fortunately was since reduced to two millions.
The Hon. Gentleman contended that most of the distress
was owing to the unreasonable increase of taxation. In
1822, the expenditure of the army and navy ordnance
had been narrowed down to 16 millions ; in 1829,
when the Royal Speech promised a reduction, it had
been lowered 500,0001 In 1824, it was raised to
17,500,0001. In 1825 it continued the same, and in
the present year it was raised to 17,800,0001. The
Country Gentlemen, be was assured, at the end of the
year, would find themselves worse off than in 1817,
1818, or 1819. In the first of those years, the whole
amount of taxation would have been paid by IS mil-
lions of quarters of corn ; whereas, in this year, it
would take half a million more. The whole rental
of England was estimated at 40 millions, whereas
the annual amount of taxation was 60,500,0004
The Honourable Gentleman advocated a general re-
vision of the National Code. It was disgraceful
for the House to sit down contented while justice was
administered in such a shameful manner. With respeet
to Ireland, he thought it would be better to grant that
country an equality of rights and privileges, than to
maintain a standing army there of 22,000 men. Remove
her garrisons from Ireland, and she would know her
own interests too well to seek more than she was feitly
entitled to. At present her wrongs were the branding
reproach of England among ell the Continental nations.
She was persecuted for no other crime than that of fol.
lowing the rites of her ancient religion. The Hon. Gent.
concluded by moving, as an Amendment to the original
motion, the addition of words to the following purport:
is That we rejoice with peer Majesty at the assurances at peace
which yaw Majesty centimes to receive, and the more se, as they
take away all asessiity of eminteilig a large standing wrap Thu
we feel cambial est the Mhos me principal cause et the
distress; sod *et pmeriblilifel Cameos win mend lam
to examine into the state of taxation, with a view to effect aTisiZ
ion wherever it may be protaleabk—as also the free wedeln corn—.
the Criminal law—the csastkaden of that House—the state of
Ireland, Re. ho."
Mr. MARSHALL, in ding to second the Amend.
ment, called the amnion of the House to the estrum%
denary situation of the country. He adverted parti.
elderly to the contracted resources, the distresses and
severe privations of the lower ranks. The landed
proprietors, be said, were found willing to relieve them.
selves from taxation by a monopoly oppressive and
most injurious to the interests et the country. In this be felt that
he wasoer speaking the seatimente of the county which be had the
bein to
Mr. MArlirlatitY famed In support of the Amendment.
Sir F. /BURDETT and Mr. DAWSON, the new Member for
the Canty of Lomb, rose together. In pursuance of the etiquette
needy eiseemsd in the House, when a new and an old Member rim
lograbor ,thed4Member, Sir F. Roams; gave way, and the new
lamabw,
Mr.A. DAWSON expressed equal sympathy with
the Mover and Seconder of the Address; as to the dis-
tress which prevailed in this country. He could not,
however, but regret that the feeling. was net extended
from subjects in England, to those which existed in
neither country, for which he was bound to cont. in.
plate with as deep an interest. The distresses of that
country did not indeed arise fawn the hunger of
population ; but yet they were of a nature to agitate din
bosom of every man. The melancholy consequence of
'the neglected state of Ireland was an alienation .1
feeling among those who would otherwise be joined
lA tht closest bonds of affectiaps. It eas idle to talk