Star.
London, England, 1811-01-26 00:00:00

P4RLIAM.ENTARr PROCEEDINGS.

nous OF LORDS, JANUARY 25.
Tb. LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the %Wool-
sack at the usual hour, and some others respecting the judicial
bviasisH .1 the Have were made.
Lord AUDLEY took the oaths and his seat.
Their Lordships than adjourned for some time during pleasure.
On the resuming of the House, the Order of the Day way read
for their Lordshipsioing into a Committee on she

AZGENCY 11/LL.

Which being ordered, Lord WALSINCHAM accord.
ingly took the Chair.
Chair Lordships immediately proceeded to the
consideration of the Clauses.
On the first enacting Clause, vie.—" That his
Royal Highness George *Augustus Frederic Prince
of Wales shall have full power and authority, in the
name, and on behalf of his Majesty, and under the
style of Regent of the United Kingdom of Great
Britain and Ireland, &c. &c."
Lord GRENVILLE noticed tbewords " the domi-
nion of his Majesty," and wished to know the reason
of their introduction.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that some
doubt had been entertained whether empowering the
Regent to administer the Royal power and authority
" according to the Laws and Constitution of the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" would
give him a sufficient power to administer the Royal
Authority in the Colonies and Dependencies, and
therefore, the words " Dominions of his Majesty"
orere introduced.
Lord GRENVILLE was of opinion, that confer-
ring " the authority according to the Laws and Con-
stitution of the United Kingdom," would give to the
Regent the complete exercise of the Royal authority
in thp Colonies and Dependenciec, in which the Royal
authority could be only exercised in the manner di.
rected br the Laws and Constitution of the United
Kiogdom i be, therefore, moved to leave out the
etords, ag Dominions of his M 4: sty" as unnecessary.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought it might
be advisable to postpone the consideration of the point
tatbe Report:


L

Lord Ittl/ESD
out the words ac
tins of the United

Ireland, and the do, in...-_
eminent intended bt the clause
piers constituting de Print(
eftercise and administer the
eity to the Crows of the said
mg.
he LORD CHANCELLOR agreed to this sup
gestion.
After some further conversation, the Amendment
,attggested by Lord Redesdals was adopted.
In another part of the clause, enacting that " all
and ever?' act and acts which shall be done by the said
aegent, in the name and on the behalf of Ms Majesty,
by virtue and in pursuance of this act, and according
to the Powers and Authorities hereby vested in him,
shall have the same force and effect to all intents and
purposes, as the like acts would have if done by his
Majesty."
Lord ELLENBOROUGH proposed to leave out
the words on the behalf," as unnecessary, and to
add to the last word " Majesty" " himself."
The latter Amendment was adopted, and the ward
" himself" was also added to the word 44 Majesty,"
in the last part of the clause, on the motion of the
r,
-LORD CHANCELLOR.
- The clause thus amended was agreed to.
On the Second, or Sigaatere Clause, some further
discussion ensued, principally between the above-men-
tioned Peers.
Lord GRENVILLE objected to the provision for
fixing the same only by initial letters, observing, that
'on several very important occasions the, Royal Signe-
tore was made at full length, as in the Instance of all
communications to Parliament, warrants, and Com-
l.
;missions for passing. Bills, and in other cases. He
thought that the signature of the Prince Regent
;should correspond with these differences, so that
I where the Royal signature was at full length, so
should that of the Regent be ; and where the former
was by initials, so should the latter. His Lordship
suggested an amendment to this efect.
The Earl of ROSS suggested that it should be left
to the option of his Royal Highness, as, if the form
of the signature was expressly enacted, an instrument
might be rendered invalid, by an accidental variation
in the signature.
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed as to the
usage, with respect to some documents being signed
by his Majesty George R. and others G. R. and ob-
served, that if the document was handed to him, signed
G. R. which it had been nsual to sign George R. he
should most respectfully suggest to his Majesty the
propriety of placing a full signature to it instead of a
short one.
LorcIELLENBOROUOH thought it would be
better to issive it at the option of the Prince, to sign
either George P. R. or G. P. R.
Lord GRENVILLE was of opinion, that the
course of office was so well understood in all the ef4-,
cial departments, respecting which form of signature
was customary to differtlntdocumenta, that there could.
be no mistake about it.
This proposition gave rise to some conversation as
above, in which the Earl of LIVERPOOL expressed his.
opinion, that as little should be left to option as possi.
'ble in such a case ; but that a regular and precise:
mode should be enacted. •
The amendment proposed by Lord Grenville was'
adopted, and the clause thus amended agreed to.
The next clause which produced discussion, was'
that for fixing the thee at which the operatiod of the
Bill was to cease and determine.
Lord GRENVILLE announced his determination
to move an Amendment to this clause ; he should not,
(however, take up their Lordship? time, in the pre-
sent instai.ce, with any observations upon it ; another
opportunity would offer, and as their time was that
night likely to be engaged in discussing another part
of the bill, what he should propose-seas, that the word
" February," as now in the clause, shinld be omitted,
and, in lieu thereof, to insert the word " August."—
On the former occasion, it had been proposed that the
restrictions should be enacted without any limitation
in point of time, but in the present instance a varia-
tion was made, and he allowed properly, as the great
difference of circumstances was taken into considera-
tion. They had, at the moment, however, no precise
knowledge as to the state of his Majesty's malady ;
fortunately, it would in all'probability not be of long
continuance. Under that impression, therefore, were
there no other, if restrictions were proper, it would be
proper to fix their duration at the shortest possible
period, with reference to what had previously come to
their knowledge respecting the royal malady. From
the experience they had of the previous duration of it,
the longest period, he thought, may be calculated at
about five months. His Lordship then moved an
amendment as above stated.
Earl GREY cordially agreed with his Noble
Friend, that it any restrictions at all were necessary,
it was proper to limit their duration to the shortest
time possible. But Le dissented from the whole prin-
ciple of this part of the measure ; the principle which
determined his opinion on this point was, that the.
Regal powers were vested in the Crown, only for
the advantage of the people, and therefore that no
abridgement or restriction of these powers could take
place without, so far, militating against the interests
of the people. .
Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH admitted the con-
sistency of those who held that no restrictions should
exist, proposing to fix the shortest possible time for
their duration ; but he could not avoid expressing his
astonishment, that any one who thought restrictions
at all necessary, should propose to shorten their dura-
tion to any given time, in consequence of wily thing
that had transpired from the examination of the phy.
I sicians. Such a proposition eould.only be made from
one of two cases—either that the recovery of his Ma-
jesty was expected in the course of six months ; or,
1
beyond that interval his recovery was hopeless.-1
Should the Committee adopt the Amendment, it!
Iwould, he must observe, be on the authority of the;
Noble Baron who proposed it, and not on that of his!
Majesty's physicians.
Lord GRENVILLE insisted that his observation'
was correctly founded on the testimony of the physi-
cians. Their evidence was in print, and a reference
to it would soon decide the point.
Some conversation ensued, in which the LORD
CHANCELLOR bore a pan, and Lords GRENVILLE and
GREY explained: The Noble and Learned Lord
spoke against the proposal Amendineuts, and the

jections to the enactments of this part of the Bill, at
considerable length. This clause could not, he ob-
served, Meet with the concurrence of their Lordships,
did they pay even the smallest regard to the consist-
ency of their own proceedings. No Noble Lord who
had toted for the original Resolutions, could en-
tertain tbakast idea that these Resolutions would be
carried innweifect in the manner now provided for in
the Bill bassi the Committee. The Resolution sent
op ban flat 0 am m on s was so framed as to warrant
a vary Clierent line of provision from the enactments
Me under consideration; the former went to pro-
pose that such a portion only of the Royal Household
was to be reserved as was necessary for the personal
comfort and dignity of the Sovereign; but by this
clause, all that portion of the establishment connected
with the dignky,of the Supreme Government was with-
drawn from the Regent. Let their Lordships look
at the details of this clause. From these it was to be
inferred, and it had been asserted, that the office of
'Lord Chamberlain, so long held to be necessary to
the state and dignity of the Government, was
now necessary to the personal comfort of his Ma-
jesty. Some of the subordinate Officers in that
department may be so deemed ; but here it was
concluded, that for the next year there should be
no such officer in existence as the Lord Chamber.'
lain. If the subordinate parts alone of this de-
partmmt were deemed se.icient for the purples
of royalty, why were not the subordinate officers
only in the Lord Steward's department, or in that of
the Master of the Horse, considered as equally useful
without their respective heads ? He agreed that a
considerable degree of difficuky obtained as to form-
ing a desirable arrangement. He felt that Majesty,
even in eclipse, should still be regarded as Majesty.
(Hear ! hear !) It was on the principle that such
establishments, headed by persons of high rank and
authority, were essential to the due state and splen;
dour of the Sovereign, that they were allotted for
those purposes by the Constitution. Were they now
to depart from that principle, and to consider those
great Officers of State and Dignity, as appertaining
merely to personal attendance ? The effect of this
clause, if carried into execution as it stood, would be
to produce at the head of the State, a partial and di.
vided Government. This he contended, would be
the inevitable effect of enacting, that such portions
of the Royal Household should be reserved.--It
was his intention to propose an Amendment, which
should reserve a due portion of titese establishments
for the personal comfort and due dignity of his Ma-
jesty. This he thought would be preferably done by
a Bill, and that in the meantime no alterations should
be made by her Majesty, or the Prince Regent, until
an arrangement, as he proposed, should be passed
into-a law. By this, such a portion of the House-
hold as was necessary for the due dignity and perso-
nal comfort of his Majesty, should be taken from the
controul of the person exercising the Royal Autho-
rity—but all that appertained to the due dignity and
state of the Government should attach to the person
exercising the Supreme Authority. Upon . these
grounds he begged leave to move as an Amendment I
that the words after o Be it therefore enacted," in the '
6th clause, be left out of the Bill, for the purpose of
introducing a provision. 4, That such portion of thel
establishment of his Majesty's Royal Household, as
shall be by any other act reserved for the due care
and attendance of his Majesty's Sacred Person, and
the maintenance of his Royal Dignity, be committed!
to the care and charge of the Queen's Most Excellent
Majesty, and that until such act shall pass, no ar- t
rangement shall be made (except what the due at-
tendance upon his Majesty may require), or that no
officer shall be liable to be removed from the same,
&c."—The question being put,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose and stated, it
must be in the recollection of their Lordships, that
M the first instance he gave every opposition in his
power to the Resolution, as formed so as to produce
the clause now under consideration, and upon the
ground that it was preferable to leave any division or
arrangement of these important establishments, to the
future deliberative wisdom of the Legislature, accor-
ding as circumstances may arise. It was his wish
that the whole of the establishments should remain
with the Crown, subject only to such specific limita-
tions as were stated in the Resolutions—but the pre-
sent opinion of both Houses seemed to be fur such a
disposition of the establishment as appeared in tie
Bill. The consequences of this difference of senti-
ment upon this part of the subject, produced the dif-
ficulties which were now experienced. What he had
proposed would have obviated these difficulties, but
he was rather surprised after all that had fallen from,
and been urged by those who so materially differed
from him in these topics, that the arrangement now
desired was to be made by a future Bill. 'This would,
in effect, be leaving the whole question of arranges
ment subject to future discussion and future arrange.
ment. He confessed his opinion to be in favour of
the principle of limitation in point of time, but in
every other respect to have followed the principle
adopted in 1789, and to have given to her Ma-
jesty the full authority over the Royal Household.
He must repeat a former observation of his, which
was, that all he had said or should say, in the ,
progress of these discussions, that he could pos-
sibly mean no reflection upon either of the illus-
trious personages to whom the management of the
Royal Household was to be committed. Whe-
ther applicable to his Royal Highness the Prince
of Wales, or the Queen's most Excellent Majesty,
the discussions should proceed, and the question be
tried upon public grounds, and upon these alone.
The Amendment which he had proposed would ob-
viate both the difficulties now felt. With respect to
the assertion, that the high offices of Lord Chamber-
Nain, Lord Steward, and Master of the Horse, were
tiot essential to the personal comfort of his Majesty,
but were merely requisite for state and parade, it
was a position whick he must deny—it was one upon
which they were at issue. He said, and centtinded.,••
those great offices were also as 'necessary for the
personal comfort of his Majesty, as requisite for
the state and splendour of the King,--.they were so •
mixed up and connected with all the inferior offices

and duties, that he would say it wit a Matter dap.
duals dithcultrto disentangle and separate them;
and It was wisely judged by the Constitution, that
the olifferent &pertinent* of the Royal Household
should be presided over by ih h high
of
rank,
character and estate ih the houhtry. They were at.
tached to the person of the Sovereign, in such prin.
ciples, and in such a way, that he was certain they
could not be separated withottt a great deal of com
fusion, and a great deal of unforeseen inconvenience
and mischief, if undertaken at this time ; neither,
in his mind, would it be respectful, proper, or de-
corous. The whole principle of the Bill, and the
variations which therein obtained from the Bill
of 1789, proceeded on the leading ground that
the whole of the restrictions Were to be only for a
time to be Hinkel& He wished to ithpress this cons
sideration ftireibly on the minds of their Lordships(
The whole of the measures proposed by his Majesty's
Ministers on this nfilicting occasion, pros d ,ea
the leading principle that his Majesty's indispito
would be but teniporary---(Hear, bear,)—that it
would be of but short duration. Upon this ground
it was that all these stipulations were proposed( anti
by no means with reference to the prinkle of peel
manent nit a nge ment—( Hear, hear.) Whatever dif-
ficulties obtained, at worst were hut temporary( eed
they had a very rational ground of hope that the in•
conveniences would be of short duration, In f .rming
the arrangements on this principle there was nothing
in which alteration should be made with so sparing.:O
hand, or be preserved from alteration altogether, as
the Household establishment of hii Majesty; but
whatever the absolute authority of the ease deman-
ded, that necessity should be complied with. But
they should riot exceed that lenit ; and was thore any
ore so ignorant of the human mind or character, as
not to say that die removal if all the peraosp who
had the care and charge of one's domestic concerns
and affairs, must make a most unfavourable impres-
sion on the mind of any individual, and still more so
on the mind of one placed in such peculiar circum-
stances as a Sovereign Prince ? All they asked for
was, that the arrangement as proposed by them should
stand for the period of one year from that time. The
regulations proposed by Ministers were suell'ti to
leave as little ground as possible for influence. At the
end of that time, the Regent, if in power, could
make a new arrangement. Nothing could be done
in that way without his "personal consent. Ali that
they asked for was, what they deemed necessary for
the true dignity and personal comfort of his Ma.
jesty c and this had been arranged on the great prin-
ciple laid down as the rule of their whole proceedings
—that of the probable recovery and resumption by
his Majesty of the Kingly powers. They asked for
no more than obvious propriety suggested; and they
were ready to admit of every thing the necessity of
the case required. They had, he repeated, reason
tOhope the operation of the Bill would net be of long
continuance, and they had to hope that no material
alteration would be made in his Majesty's householl
until they knew what the event would be. Under this
impression; he should certainly prefer the limitation
to be extended to one year, and that the whole house-
hold, as in the case of 1789, should be left under the
controul of her Majesty during that period. The
arrangement was temporary, and, considering the
shortness of the interval, no serious inconvenience
could arise. Were the arrangements proposed to be
of a permanent nature, then the objections on the score
of influence would apply ; but as the whole was but A
temporary arrangement, and at farthest not of long
duration, as they all had reason confidently to expect
and to hope would be of much less duration than con-
templated by the provisions of the Bill, no part of the
arrangement could be rationally objected to on that
ground.
Earl GREY contended, that in regulating their
conduct on the present occasion, their Lordships'
House should look to anal be guided by the Resol.e-
tions they had already agreed to and sanctioned; and
not to the opinion of any individual, however respec-
table the opinion of that individual might be consi-
dered. He was only anxious that their Lordships
should establish the opinion they had already ex-
pressed in their Resolutions ; for the principles laid
down in these Resolutions were plain and intelligible.
The substance of that principle was, that the depart-
ments of the Household should not be separated from
each other or from the Government, or transferred
into another quarter, where an influence might he
created and exerted unfriendly and adverse to the
operations of that Government. As the clause of
the Bill now stood, it rested no longer on the basis of
the original Resolutions, but tended to throw the
power into the hands of the Queen so far as, it being
there placed, it might conduce to strengthen and sup-
port the interests of the present Administration.—
When that portion of his Majesty's Household wes
resolved to be vested in the Queen's nl,lkr eaeollert
Majesty. what interpretation was put upon that Re-
solution ? Was it meant that that portion should
comprehend all that was suitable to the dignity, or
necessary to the state of the Sovereign, or only such
portion as might be deemed requisite to his conveni-
ence and comforts in his present situation, or even on
his recovery ? To him it appeared that such was not
the view and intention of the clause. On the con-
trary, it appeared to be intended to erect somewhere
a great political power and a great political influ-
ence, which was to counteract that of the Govern-
meat of the Regent • for it provided, that all the
great offices of the ifousehold should be ti ken from
the Regent except two, and placed in the 'rands of
tl:e Queen. By so doing, sonvehiag like a fieud er
deceit would be practised on the Prince ca on Parlia-
ment. The offer made to his Royal Highness by
the Resolutions of the two Houses of Parliament
spoke a very differe.nt language front what was held
out to him by the present clause, and the Prince
would therefore he imposed upcn it the clause were
to pass in its p6esent form. In effict, as the clause
now stood, the patronage of the Household would be
divided into 49 parts, forty-seven of which uculi b
possessed by the Queen, and two only would be left
to the Prince. This, in his opinion would be a mange
,arrangement. It was such as lie could not imagine
that the Noble Lord on the Wo &ads. when presid •
ing in another capacity, in a high place, could pre-
vail upon himselt to adopt. Wnen acting in his ju-
dicial capacity, on cases of a nature similar to the
present, he conl3 not bring himself to believe that
the Nelik and Learned. Lord would come to alike
:resolution, and decide, that out of forty.nine pairs,
forty-sevess should be give to the widow, awl Or

ttggested; that b leavieg Noble Barth observing he artaxid not then persist in
to the laws and conatirta- tiptinvenllnent, the same was negatived *idiom a
om of Great Britain and, dithton.-
of his Majesty." the tn. 'ewe of the sobsequent clauses of the hill were
lause would still be cum. ' agreed tb without discussion or amendment, When
ice of Wales Regent " to their Lordships same to the consideration of
Royal Power and Audio- THI HOUSIIHOLH CLAWS
iaid United Kingdom be. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expreseed his ob.
•••• *As. .........twnertfie ea. th;r2 ,tart nF the Rill 2t

,

r
two to the .
bete %Ida the Noble Ind Learned chit? and 14 odes poimell ant to Wm. -He *Muhl Preheat, all sUct meats' we withheld from her. tc
Lord sanction such a decision. by any other person rat id every possible case upan his own responsibility, aq.ord of the Bedchamber failed in the due discharge
in a private ease t H. would veuture to ask the and be content to knee the consequences to•Gon.—, of his duty—should he even be guilty of negligence i
Learned and Noble Lotd, Whether in the Court of He Would not, mid could not lay out of his tontem• or indignity towards his Majesty, the Queen would
Chancery he woad conscientiously resolve coda such platiou the personal feelings and comfort of the Mo. heave no power either of removing, or supplying his
a decision ? l4e doubted not but that in n& a case nareh ; he would not, to use the word of a writer well p4oe. He found the same restrictions extended to
the Noble and Learned Lord would listen as ecrupu. s:cilled in the science of human nature, di:Quantitate the the exercise of her power, whether applied to the First
lously to hie conscience as if it were pro to him Household, and reduce the domestic establishment of Lord of the Household, or to the lowest menial at-
to put the Crest Seal to, n Act which proposed
tniot the his Sovereign, in the period of his afßaction. The tendant on his Majesty—so much then for the pa-
sanction of the Royal Authority. But all the restric. Circumstances of a temporary incapacity were not thetic appeals with which their Lordships had been
Sion: to be imposed on the Regent were justified, on those under which it appeared to him just or gene. so vehemently assailed upon the plausible ground
the ground that they were only to be of a temporary roes to remove from him what had belonged to him of consulting the personal convenience of his Majesty..
nature. To this observation he shield reply by re. as the King of this country. He for one could not —There were, however, other considerations, and
farting to the very critical situation of affairs at the take his heart from his breast, or forget that `his Ma- amongst them, that was not least important which
present moment but critical as it was, he would eon, jesty was a man. Until he should vacate his Throne respected the Address sent by both Houses to the
tend, that even in ordinary times the Executive Au. by descending into the Frave, to no other person , Prince of Wales and to the Queen. Those Noble
thority should not be so crippled. It had indeed been would he acknowledge himself a subject. He had Lords who thought that the subsequent arrangements.
remarked, that those who, on former occasions, were been attacked and reviled, but this he disrega•ded ;1 provided for by the Bill, with respect to the House-
most forward to assert that the inglience of the actions which he had never performed had been in. hold, did amount to a breach of faith with either the
Crown ought to be guarded against and dimi.. puted to him ; and others had been swelled and dts- Prince or Queen, could not be expected to vote in
lashed, -were now the loudest in deprecating all torted by calumny and misrepresentation. In the support of those arrangements, and as far those
lestrictions and limitations on the power of the newspapers he might tomorrow read, as he had often who had supported the Measure of 1788, they could
:kegent. Great indeed has been the increase of the before read, actions and expressions attributed to him, not therefore be called upon* to support the Bill now
4tifluente of the Crown from the increase of the army of which he was perfectly uncimsci ,us, And of which before the House, especially in those points iii which
indtaiy, from the increase of the national deb:, &r. he had never heard till he saw them recorded in those it was not only dissimilar to the former, but repug.
-and 'he was ready to agree that any such increase newspapers. He assured their Lordships that to all mutt and contradictory to it—the regulations pro-
sliould ever be considered by Parliament with the eye this he was insensible, and viewed-it without any seuti. vided in each, respecting the Civil List, were mate-
of jealousy. But on the present occasion that power ment of pain. To the statements of thin diurnal rially different. In the Bill of 1788, a clause was
and influence which might be exerted for the public publications •he never referred, without d scoyeting inserted. expressly providing that the quarterly ex.
good, was placed in other hands, and diverted into errors and misrepresentations, but the coo ,eintisness penditure during the King's illness, should not ex-
different channels from which no increase could be of rectitude and integrity was sufficient to sustain him ceed the amount of the expence of the former guar-
expected in the energies of the Executive Government, against any consequences that might affect him from ters previous to the illness of his Majesty, but in the
but merely an engine to strengthen their personal any quarter. Whatever those consequences might present Bill he was not aware of any adequate pro
power placed in the hands of the Ministers of the day. be, he was prepared to brave their shock, whatever • vision for the due responsibility in the expenditure of
From views of their own, they attempted to shackle they might be : this part of the public money. He should say no
the hands of the Executive Power for a year, although , impavidum frrint rains! more at present upon the Bill itself, but content him-
within that very year, the honour, the prosperity, So long as he served a master so justly dear to him self with stating it as his opinion, that the clause now
and the safety of the country might be brought into ;and to the country, it would he consolatiln enough before their Lordships, was so inconsistent with th
hazard, be fought for and decided. But should he ,to him to be satisfied that he was a zealous and faith- former resolutions, upon which they had grounded
be asked, why object to placing this power in her Earl servant. He well recollected the time when the their address to the Queen, and to the Prince, that he
Majesty's hands? he should not perhaps make any ! reign of revolutionary principles, and the influence of should feel it to he his-duty to vote that the clause
objection to its so being placed, if in reality the Queen ! jacohi.iical doctrines had well nigh subverted the shall not stand pit of the Bill.
were to possess and exercise that power; but was Constitution and the Government of the country. The LORD CHANCELLOR begged leave to
that' the case? The Queen was indeed to have the Among those who were now opposed to him, were be distinctly understood as rut absolutely approving
care of his Majesty's no— and the power of filling I some who had concurred with him in the measures; of the present Clatse, He ise, did nut approve of taking
.
th,

, person,
up certain vacancies in his Majesty's Household, if
suc:i should occur from death or resignation. Her
Majesty was even to have the disposal of all

parts of the Household, excepting certain offices
which were the least essential to the convenience
end comfort of his Majesty. But the Queen was not
to have the power of removing any of them without
the authority of the King, and thus they were ren-
dered independent of her Majesty; such were the
offices of the Lord Chamberlain, the Lord Steward;
the Master of the Horse. &c. &C. And not only wai
her Majesty debarred from appointing to such offices,
but not permitted to remove them even in cases of
misconduct ; no, not a Physician or even a Page.—
By agreeing. to the present clause, their Lordships
would therefore equally depart from the spirit of the
. - .
•Resol.

re.
spect to her Majesty and to his Royal Highness the
lirince of Wales. The tendency of all these measures
m iy be discovered in one :—the place of LordChazu-
berlain is now vacant, and is not to be filled by her
Majesty. What influence is placed in the hands of

'ions they liadalreaZiy adrpted, brat w.th

which were then successfully adopted, to stop the
progress of those principles, and among them were
also to be found those who, under the appellation of

gagging bills, had rdiculed those measures. He
verily believed, that amid the convulsions :tad perils'
of that period, it was the private virtues of his Majes-
ty's
character that had gone the hrthest to effect the
salvation of the empire. With those virtues in his
remembrance, could he feel justified in tdcing advan.
cage of an incapacity which there was more reason
than ever to believe would be of very short duration,
to b upon his domestic comtorts, to violate his
person feelings, and to deprive him of his Royal
di6nity and splendour ? He envied not the feelings of
those who could reconcile, under any circumstances,
such a proceeding to _their minds. • lie could never

put it out (Allis recollection, that the Committee had

- -
two objects to accomplish•—thity had provide both
for the stability and security of the-Government, And
for the safe resumption of the Rnyal Functions on the
part of his Majesty, whenever NS recovery was ascer-
tained. The Noble Earl (Grey) had enlarged on
of. the 'fr -tad in this tr

that MR cer, it was unnecessary to explain ; it is not,
however, in abeyance, but the whole of it is to be
transferred to the Vice-Chamberlain, who is to be
independent.of the Queen. What then becomes of
the necessity which was to regulate and limit tire duty
of Parliament op• the present emergency ? It extend-
ed no farther than to provide for the defect or the
:Royal Authority. But your Lordships have gone
,farther; indeed, so far as to have wholly lost sight
•of that doctrine of necessity by which the whole of
vour proceedings on the present occasion were 11)
be regulated.
-The great object, meanwhile, has been
.hr

any part nt the Houselpild from the Queen. 1-fe
would have left the wh .le of tho Household with her
Majesty.
The I`` • -LANSDOWNE here - and el..

vill"-",-1--Tr -
antrWtt in3t itiCh AtAta,itteffitin fat in a;!
the Government, so, In like winner, k was not rtght
to take awayany of the dignity due to the Soreteign,
The additieinal sum which might be found
for the splendour of the Regent was so inconsidetab e
that it could Le no object to the nation ; Its amount
would not equal the fourth part of the expenee which
hitt been laid out in improving their Lordshipsi
House ; and would they hesitate to bestow this, via
thus avoid the shame and disgrace of bereaving their
Sovereign of his proper splendour and dignity? He
wished to follow the precedent of 1788 closely§ and
to avoid making the contrasthetween 1788 and 1811
disgraceful to the latter. What had 22 years don:
to lower the Sovereign in the eyes of the country
He entreated their Lordships to spare their Sovereign
the possibility of feeling a disappointment at their
proceedings on his recovery; and to avoid departure
from a precedent which did immortal honour to the
person who had the merit of it, He should therefore
give his vote for the rejection of the Noble Marquis's
Amendment,
The question being then loudly called for, the Com-
mittee dividcd on the Motion, that the words of the
original Clake should stand part of the Bill ; when
the timbers were—
Contents D 6
Not-Contents -
Majority against Ministers - `l5l
The Committee we understand (as strangers con-.
tinued excluded) after some discussion as to the man-
ner of putting the motion, proceeded to divide nn the
Amendment moved by the Marquis of Lausdowue,
when the numbers were—
Contents 10?
Not-Contents - 98
Majgrity against Ministers - —9
This diminution of thensajority on the first Motioe
arose, We understand, in consequence of Lord Radi
nor, who before voted with the Opposition, having
on this proposition, divided with Ministers, and the
accession of Lord Warwick, who was not in the
Hruse r,p the first division.
When strangers were readmitted, we found Earl'
GREY animadverting on the Clause which provides
for the appointment of a Council to assist the Queen.

Marquis of _ rose _ e:,
pressed a hope, from what had just fallen from the
Noble and Learned Lord, that he would vote for the
Amendment
LORD CHANCELLOR
The LORD CHANCELLOR replied, that tho'
he did not altogether approve of the original Clause,
it did not follow that he might not more strongly dis-
approve of what was proposed by the Noble Marquis
to be substituted in its place.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that he un-
derstood the Learned Lord to disapprove of the clause,
and therefore concluded that he would vote that
said clause should not stand pert of that Bill.
Zid noble

the importance 'former, ai ..4 ..- re-
spect he coincided with him) but he'. must, contend,
that in securing his Majesty's restoratibn to his Go-
vernment, they were providing. in the most effectual
'manner for the true interred and the.ulti,miste ipecu-
..rity of the Government. Was it:to be'believkl, that
the offices; withheld from the cunt:road of the Regent,
could possibly create any sotous embitrrassinent in
his measures ? Was the Noble person who tilled the
office of Master of the Horse, to be supposed incapa-
ble. of voting 'according to his real opinions on the
public interests, or would the Nobte Earl opposite to
hi he thref( livable of serving his

rhe LORD CHANCELLOR sal

I..nrd had again misunderstood
.him. He had thought
in the first instance that the Household should be left
with the Queen ; Parliament had told him he was
wropg in that opinion; and he was now for leaving
with her Majesty as much of the Household as the
House would agree to leave her, since they would not
_ _

The Noble Earl considered it a most extravagant
supposition to presume, as that Clause did presume,
that persons would be appciated by the Regent, •

tc?
fill the most dignified situations in the country, who
could feel other interests, than those prescribed by
their duties, The Clause itself contained a most in.)
sidious reflection. It seemed to assume, indeed it
was admitted by the Noble Lords opposite, that the
House should place every impediment against those
,to whom the. Regent may extend his confidence. If
that was the principle, it was better at once to intro-
duce a Clause disqualifying such persons from bold-
ing any place of trust under the Government.
-LordSTANHOPE gave notice of his intention to
move an amendment on this clause, when the Report
should be brought up.
On 'th, - reid, relative to the dirors-!-'

that the
I dial

to clause being

leave the whole of it to her Majesty's controul.
Lord CLANCARTY said, that as there were
Noble Lurds who disapproved both of the clause and
the amendment, they mien vote against the clause,
provided the possession of the House was not pre.
occupied by an amendment.
Lord REDESDALE suggested, that that object
might be in some measure answered, if the words
proposed to stand part of the clause should be put in
the following form, that those words be here inserted.
This motion, if rejected, would afterwards leave the
clause or to be corrected by the House.

of the Privy Purse.
Earl GREY said, he could not suffer that clause
to pass without some animadversion. He thought
that the subject of the Privy Purse should not have
been scrutinized by Parliament in the manner it had
been. It was completely inconsistent with th Ise
prim' •

ciples of delicacy by which the Noble Lords op-
posite Affected to be actuated. He thought the dis-
posal of the entire Privy Purse should be vested in
the hands of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales*
when Regent, to enable him to dispense those Royal
bounties—to perform those acts of regal munificente,
which shed additional splendour on the Kingly dig-
nity, and for which purpose the Privy Purse-Was
granted to his Majesty. Fnr he conceived that it was
As necessary to the dignity of the Regent to distribute
rewards to men of talents, to encourage genius, and
to patronize the arts and sciences, as to that f -

to strengthen the hand; of the Ministers. Was this am, if in office, .aierefore onabie e. ong 1. 'pen .._ . / patronize too ..._
n. . He thought the entire powers of the Crown
the
the intention of Parliament ;or was it not the duty I country, or of expressing the honeet conviction of his Eorl STANHOPE said, that from the high opi. r Kig
should be vested in the Regent ; and he felt con-
of Parliament to watch such attempts? The Queen mind'? But the argument was extended to all who 1 nion which he entertained of a Noble Lord (Gren-
winced that his Majesty, on his recovery, would be
-is supposed to have a certain authority over the , held places in the Household, and if the argument • vile) who opposed the amendment, and his wish that
Household ; but are not the principal Offisers of that I were just, he could only say, -that he must wish to he should always think in the same manner as his pleased to learn that his bounty had been distributed I
Establishment irremoveable by her Molests' ? i here , withdraw hone sash a society as that in which he . Lordship, and that his Lordship should think in the during his illness under the superintending care of his
is, therefore, a great proportion of ihole Officers, I then stood', as a society of a character and description same manner with him, he was very sorry that he Son.
greed
who, for a year, are under no controul and who must , with which he had never betere mixed. The Noble , should be deprived of his vote this evening; but he The Earl of LIVERPOOL a with the Noble
th
be devoted to the Ministers of the day, to whom they : and Learned Lord declared, that he was siot arnbi- hoped that when the numbers came to be reckoned Lord who had just sat down, at the Privy Purse
must feel indebted. Besides, is it not to be consider- ! tious of continuing in place—that he was incapo- . they would be able to do without him (a laugh.)
had been granted for mtinifizent purposes ; but ht'
ed how such an arrangement may affect the Civil List? hie of entertaining any interested views at such a ! Lord SIDMOUTH said, that all the arguments thought that to take advantage of the temporary in.
Thereareg3oo,oooor Xloo,ooodisposolde at theplea- . period as the present ; and concluded, by repeating ' which . he had heard this night in favour of the disposition of his Majesty, for the purpose tf trans-
sure of those Officers. By what principle of the Consti- his regard and veneration for his Majesty. 1 Amendment, resolved into the deviation of the Bill fening the controul of it to any other person, would
tution are they to be vested- with such a power ? Is I Lord CLANCARTY was against the amend- from the Resolutions. He wanted to know what was
be a most ungracious and indelicate action.—(Hoary
such a power to be placed in the hands of Officers . meat, but we understood the Noble Lord to be hostile intended to be conveyed to the understanding of the hear.)—In every view he had taken of the subject, is
of the Crown whom you cannot dismiss ? Under ,to the clause itself as then worded. House, when that Resolution was adopted. The
appeared to him to be one pregnant with difficulty...—
all these views of the clause, he could not imagine ' Lord GRENVILLE said, that he should consider Noble Lords who persisted in maintaining this devia- In 1789, much animadversion had taken place in
that it would be approved by their Lordships.— the question then before their Lordships not so much lion could not agree in the tense to be given to the consequence of the grant of X 16,000, which had been
The Noble Earl concluded by observing, that. after in reference to the proposed amendment, as to the Resolution. The meaning which the Noble Earl made on the representation of the Minister. That
what had passed, and had transpired through various immediate consideration whether the words now in (Grey) attached to it, was different from that enter- sum only was then found necessary. But the
means, the House should have better authority (aria the clause shall or shall not stand part of that clause ? taints.' by the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne). It was penditure of the Pnvy Purse had since, from a va.
xnu Icoheresperactlohat authority), than that of the with respect to that part of the question he felt no said that there has been a breach of faith with this nets, of causes, increased to £30,000 per annum;
Pottle and Learned.tord on the Woolsack, to con- difficulty, and as to the perplexity complained of and with the other House. There has been nu such and it was thought right to provide to that extent,
wince them of the competency of his Majesty to re- by the Noble Lord, he thought the course to be breach of faith. It is impossible to say that a Reso.
having first, for the satisfaction of Parliament, in-
sums his Royal functions, and to authorise him to pursued by the Noble Lord in either case to be, lution has not been adhered to, which is not specific, stituted an inquiry on the subject. And he was
do that, which bp could not presume•to do, unless it • according to his own shewing, sufficiently obvious.— and which admits of the utmost latitude of interpre-
authorised to say, that that inquiry bad been con
were manifekoheotherxiteinivePower was complete. If the Noble Lord was of opinion that these words tation. He wished that the proceedings of 1788 had ducted with the most scrupulous delicacy. No
The LOLD CHANCELLORt",in very energetic ought to stand part of the clause, he in that case been closely followed. Indeed all the inconveniencies a single question had been proposed which could i,
, after mature consi
language, . declared that the allusions of the Noble would vote against the amendment ; and on the which had arisen in the progressof the present measure the slightest degree affect the feelings of his Majesty.
Earl who }Adjust sett down, were so marked, that he question that these words remain, he would of course had their origin in the departure from the precedent of This mode had been pursued, dens-
could not soppresr the emotions which they liod pro- i say content ; but if he thought, as he understood the 1788. He thought that any division of the House-
tion, in preference to coming forward with the me -
duced in his mind. If he had referred to his own Noble Lord to think, that these words ought not to hold was improper. He was willing that all necessary
statement of Ministers, which, on a former occasion
conscientious feelogs,- it was because, from the out= remain, he, on the question being put that these words and becoming splendour should be given to the Re- !had been severely censured.
sst of his public hie to the present hour, he had en- stand pet of the clause, will say, not-content. With gent ; but when he wished this, he could not give i The Earl of MOIRA observed, that notwith
desivoured to regulate his conduct by the impartial respect to an illusion made by the Noble and Learn. his consent to strip the King of his dignity. He
!standing what had been aliedged as to the deli
,
suggestions of his conscience. Confident in the pro- ed Lord on the Woolsack, to the part taken by him wished that the Regent should be armed with all the sate manner in which the examination had been con
'pity of his own heart, and assured of the integrity (Lord Grenville) at the period of 1788, he could ordinary power of the Government; but he did net Iducted, he could not avoid still thinking it a mos •
with which he had laboured to perform the duties of assure the Noble Lord, that that moment had not yet wish that all power should be taken from that illus- i improper proceeding. The delicacy and secret
his office, both to the Sovereign and to the public, he arrived, and he believed never would arrive, in which trious person to whom the care of the Sovereign was ;with which these acts of bounty were performs.
.
rendered them doubly valuable—and he could no'
'
orchid neither court nor shrink from scrutiny and in- he should, in the slightest degree, regret the part entrusted. He agreed, however, in the propriety of
vestigation. The sole and cons:ant rule of action taken by him on this memorable occasion. The sen. depriving her of the power of removal, that every ob- conceive Ally thing likely to be more pairiful to th
with him had been the satisfaction of his own mind, tionents he then had on the subject of the Household ketosis of a constitutional nature might be obviated. feelingi of his Majesty, than to find, on his recdand he would not scruple to declare to their Lord- governed him still. He then said what he now re- ./t had been stated by a Noble Baron; that if you take i very, that his private bounty had become a subject a
i
ships that no (oars, no influence of any kind should peated, that they should surround the sick bed of Ma- away the power of removal, you subject your Sove-
Parliamentary investigation. He differed from tit
deter him horn doing over again what he had already jesty with dignity ; every possible provision should be reign to the chance of indecent treatmeat from per- : opinion delivered by a Noble Earl (Grey) as to th
done, if he • conceived that it was necessary to the made to secure to the Royal Person every
see the force of this objection. If any persons were comfort sons whom you have no power over. He could not :propriety of granting the contt oul of the Privy Put •
interests of the King his Master, or to those of the and convenience. T
The feelings which bad in this re. to the Regent—amid, he was convinced, if it wet
country at large. When he mentioned his Majesty; specs operated upon his judgment at that period, he, so far to forget themselves as to-behave themselves '
offered to him, that, from motives of refined delicacy
he newer could speak of him without gratitude for the should be sorry that 22 years should have blunted ; irreverently or indecently in the presence of his Ma-he would decline it. No one, he thought, was so fi
perform those acts of bounty in which the Kin:
favours add the obligations lie had heaped upon him, but when he formerly voted for vesting. the House-
_ jesty, their attendance might be dispensed with, al-Ito
had indulged himself,. as her Majesty—who, fr.
he could. n ihinloof his unhappy _malady without hold in the Queen, he did it on the principle that her, though a removal should not take place. It was im.l
the act
'bility. Neither the reports of the Majesty should be amply provided with tne means oc. possible to conceive that any Persons would have the her situation, must be in possesquGu of those amiabi
Physicians, nor threats in or out of doors, should ape-- enforcing and upholding the authority to be
.vested in assurance to force their attendance on his Mojesty; secrets which were connected with the expenditure o
di- the Privy Purse.
read and age el rare to preventing his exercising his own judgment her.—but here was as one essential point of difference contrary to the wishes of the person who had the
in whatever regarded his interests. kleorcuold.rether between the bill then
. Lrough.t into Per.liemen_t, and '. of
.inne. They were to.
.recollect that the So-. . The remaining clauses were then
and if to, and the House adjouracd, at eleven e'el k '
periih on the scaffold thin desert his allegiance to his that now before r . ordsht tto *elm:met, mop still existed in his political capacity, oc ,et i
provided for tht Quitelli ; but in the. it was mot right, tinonfoent to take away how .hint Monday.
Sovereign, by declining to take nay step, which his ouch means wde pro
P n ,
. •
•
. . i
=o•l.llllllllMlNllllllllllMMlNMlNlNllllMlONllMEnimeminnimmommimmmfteinurrammr.m.......•••.l••••••••••rwer....................-