Star.
London, England, 1804-04-25 00:00:00

lIELAND•

The trim Revenue Regulation Bii; was read a feeond time.
The Holy Orders' Bill was rsad a fecoud time on the maims of
Dr. Do igestan.
Mr FOSTER prefented a petition from the merchants sod
mauu.adtures of trills linen In I)ublin, which was received, and
ord. r‘d to lie on the table; he alto matted to withdraw his original
motion on the Irith accounts. A converfatioo enfued, In which
Mr. CORRY obierved, that there were obitacles to the fpeedy
nredudion of fuch accounts which did not oda in this country.
'the Parliamentary year in Ireland was different, and the effects co
adimilate the modes in the two countries had act hitherto produc•
ed the Intended effect.

~Mr. FOSTER laid a few words concerning the coofolidated
fund in Ireland for the lilt year, which was not yet laid an the ta-
ble, after which Ole motion paffed.
Mr. C. DUNDAS moved the committal of the Prokentlon Bill,
winch went through the Committee.
Mr. FOSTER moved for an account of the Confolidated Fund
In Ireland for the laR year, ending Jan. 5,1803, and complained
of a IIIiftUCIIMM in the accounts prdellted this year. The Conf.-
lidated Fund was Rated at 9,50e,0001. which was an overftatement
of 1,600,,..10c1. He Mould there fore move that the Accountant-
Central of Ireland do amend in. return, esplaining the particulars.
The SVRAKER oLkevcd, 'has in point of torm the motion
Ihould be, slut the Ardent account be withdrawn, which Mr.
FOITER accordingly moved.
Mr CORRY laid, th.,, if an .rn tr. was certainly en important
one, but he was fore • hat the Int • .dation of the account could not
Ise erroneous. The Right Honuai Ali.: Gentleman hal never men-
, tinned the cireumnance till Low, and the.r fore he mutt skied to
the motion at prefect' ;At a entice.

After lonic con•crf-•wu ot. t. point of order, 111 r. POSTER.
g..•r nonce for co-tntrrrw. I.r 11..5a ,reltard, that t h.. et ror con-
fiat d Itt tht officer's har.t,i; Rated a grofs rec,ipt, without &dun-
two for eircnces of toll.rboo. lir tht-o ga•e a notice oi hi. mo-
-611"

Lord FOI.KESTONE ttrrog!:t there was no parliansenury
t.f•gc v. hick tclidcrcd it neeetl.ry to stye a notice on 'very occatiou

n(a :notion.

1 he AKFR (aid thane ms no ellablitied law, but the mew
Jet, h-J been Co and it owl been found highly conve-
ni,nt for the dJpateh of public boGnefs.
r. f 0:-• 11. R gavr ;:t 4.f a Motion for an Account of all
hr ir; ; ..ed to keel Cia.—es in Great Britain, hccc Jer.uary the

I.r; canverfatlan cancel on the falrjen of Notices, In which
Mr. l'nftrr, Mr. lorry, the Attorney General, Mr. Fuller, the
Chancelke :be Exchequer, &o. tool. • part ; and the Speaker
expe...ence, with gxcat cleat na. and pt etifloo,theufatebol the Houk
in ter our of NotlrL _ _

Mr. f• OSTt.h. then p•e not.ce of a motion f.ir Cold• aof fop.
tlr) r mut-shin rclatJvc ca. the Pilpolitioo ut Lirauta is Ittihad.

LOYALTY Lome.
M. )d NT made his promifed Motion relative to
the in' -tnißs of the holders of Loyalty Loan. He
entered into a minute hiftory or all the particulars
In any fort connefted with the negotiation of that
Loan, the palling of the Aft which legalifed the
tranfaftion, and every fubfequent event, by which he
thought the faith of Government was in the leap
implicated, or the interetts of the holders of that
Loan affefted. The Loan was propofed on Thud-
day the ift of December, and by ten o'clock on Mon-
day the sth, the names were put down for the whole
amount of 18 millions. On the aid of the fame
month, when the Bill received the Royal Affent,
there was the fum of one million five hundred thou-
land aftually paid down on the faith of the agree.
ment which had been made with the then Chancellor
of the Exchequer. There were feveral meetings had
afterwards; and different opinions were known to
have been given as to the legal interpretation of the
precife terms of the Ad. On the whole he argued
that, if the fubfcribers did adually expel to have a
right to demand re-payment in two years after the
ratification of the Definitive Treaty of Peace, it could
not be deemed confiftent with the honour or good
faith of the nation to permit individuals to lifer by
any embarraffinent or doubtfulnefs in the formation
of an Ad of Parliament. He therefore moved that
the Paid At be referred to a Committee of the whole'
Houfe.
Mr. VANSITTART, in reply to the °Nations of
the Hon. Mover to the conduct of his Majefty's Mi-
nifters, maintained that they had purfued the line
which, under fimilar circumftances,their predeceffors,
or any other Miniflers, would have attended to,
namely, where a doubt exalted as to the interpretation
of an Alf of Parliament to confult the Law Officers
of the Crown—who upon this occafion had delivered
an opinion that differed. it was true, from that of a
refpedable barrifter (Mr. Pignt), but he mull Rate
that which came to his 'knowledge, that the cafe up-
on which the Learned Barriller alluded to had pro-
nounced an opinion was erroneoufly drawn up, and
particularly with Yelped to the date of the Definitive
Treaty of Peace, or otherwife he prefitmed that no
difference would have exalted between that and the
opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown.
Mr. BURROUGHS argued that the refolution of
the Committee of Ways and Means, which immedi-
ately followed the propofal made with the Subferib-
ers to the Loyalty Loan, was a confirmation of the
bargain which they concluded with Minifters, and
that any deviation from that refolution in the Bill
that was grounded upon it mull have been a miftake.
for it was impoffible to fuppore that any breach of
faith with the Subfcribers could have been intended.
The opinion of the Law Officers he maintained to be
not perfeBly agreeable to that which from all the
circomßances was to be meted, for as they admit-
ted the cafe to be doubtful, he conceived that their
duty was to lean to the fide of equity, and to attend
to the well founded claims of the public creditor.
Mr. PITT concurred in opinion, that the prefent
queftion relied entirely on the good faith of Parlia-
ment. and not upon its liberality. He confidered
the Houfe as bound to fet the matter to rights by
a conftration of the Aft which might be favourable
to the fubfcribers. The original contra& was bind-
ing upon the Houfe of Commons folely, becaufe
every thing regarding fupplies depends upon the de-
cifion of that Houle. The money was generally
paid upon the refolutions even of the Committee.
The day of payment, in the prefent inflance, had
been pollponed, not with a view of varying from
the bargain, but owing to the circumftances of the
times. It was thought belt not to have the firft pay-
ment till after the dividends had been aired, but in
point of fad, many perfons did not wait for that
period, but paid upon the faith of the refolutions.
If the Subfcribers were not regularly informed of
the propofed alterations of the bargain, then a
breach of contra& certainly was the relish. He ac-
knowledged with great concern, that Come miftake
had happened, and that fome blame was attach-
able to himfelf. It was certainly proper to put the
moft favourable conftrudion upon the Ad towards
the Subfcribers. The opinions of the Attorney-
General, and Mr. Pigott, had been taken upon
that Ilatute : the one thought that the fix months
might go on current with the two years; and the
other, tnat they were to be fuperadded. He corn
curred with the former of tittle opinions. and con-
cluded with agreeing with the principles of the
motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
laid, he thould be inclined to ad nit the force of the
Right Honourable Gentleman's reafiming, and that
of the Hon. Member who preceded him, ;1 there
were not ciicomllaiices in the cafe to which neither
of them had teemed to advert. The difcretion of
the Houle was not tied up by any refilutions of a
Committee. Tire money which was paid upon the
faith cis thole refolutions was not available till after
the Bill had received the concurrence of the Lords
and the Royal Mint. It was nothing Bile than a
depofit at the Bank, whir.h remained till the Bill had
gone through all its Rages. The notice which had
been flock up at the Bank contained the reservations
to which the parties fobleribed, fubfequent to which
the refolutions of the Committee were agreed to.—
Good faith did not require that Itch bargains fhould
always be made in conforn y to fuch refolutions,
becaufe, in every Rage of the Bill, fome alteration
might take place. An application had been made
by the holders of the Loy. sty Stock for an additional
bonus, in confequence of the lots they laid they had
fultained from a depreciation of the fonds, and
for an interval of four or five months, the contraft
having been made when 3 per Cents. were at 56 and
had fallen to 46 or 47. The grotinds on which this
application had been made acre, that a fecond Loan
had been made for the fervice t f the year. At that
time the language of the Gentlemen who have
fpoken was very different from their fentiments
now. The attention of Parliament, and the atten-
tion of the fubfcribers was particularly called to
the tranfadion of that Loyalty UMW., and to the Ad
by which it was to he railed, by the great debates
which took place in Parliament at that time. There
was not then one word of complaint, by either party,
againll the alterations which took place; the parties
had, thervore, a fair and full opportunity of
knowing the determination cf the Legiflature—
To fay that parties were thus to take advantage
of their own ignorance, and come fornard with
cumplAints at tlubpct;gd, was applying a new

ciple which might prove a dangerous precedent. It
was his duty to attend to the opinion of the offi-
cers of the crown while the parties may fill have
redrefs in a Court of jußice. The fithfcribers, how.
ever, had not a fort ground to Rand upon. If the
liberality of the Houle was to be appealed to, we
muff confider who are to be the *eels of liberality
and who the objets of jultice. The public intereft
had a claim to our consideration, and it muff be a
fatisfadion to the Houfe to be informed that the
original fubfcribers will he paid at par, and receive
lomething more than 7 per cent. and no lofs would
be fufained`by the polific. On there grounds he
could not violent to the motion. or the objets of
the Hon. Gentleman. If however, it fhould be the
.pleafure of the Houle not to aequiefce in the motion,
he thought an arrangement might be made with the
parties ; that the time of payment of the bonus might
6* delayed till the time of peace, when payment
would take place with left inconvenience to the pub.
lie than at prefent.
Mt. FOX laid, that his view of the fhlajed was .
very nearly the fame with that of the Right Hop.
Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt) under the gallery,
and that of the Hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. Bur-
' roughs). It would be a monfrous propofition, to
fay, that Parliament was to be fettered in the fob-
fequent Rages of a Bill by the refolutions of a Com.
mittee. It would alfo be abfurd to fay, that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had the power of
entering into articles of agreement which were not
to be fubjed to the controul of the Houfe. There
was, however, a neceffity for attending to good
faith with thole who had fubfcribed in confequence
of fuch articles and Refolutions. The .depofit al-
luded to had certainly been taken as a security,
that the futafcribers would attend to their bargain.—
It had been Paid, ignorantio furl, Itentinem extujirt, that
he would grant ; but were they, when they had thus
made a bargain, intelligible by there refolutions, to
fay it was the duty of every individual to watch
the progrefs of an At of Parliament, left any al.
teration of the terms should be introduced t It was
grange to hear a perfon endeavour, fire, to argue
away the right of thofe fuhfcribers to complain, and
then to fay, that fomething might yet be done to give
them relief after this motion is difpofed of. What
would be Paid of an attorney, were he to draw out a
leafe contrary to the original articles which had beets
entered into by the parties ? He would certainly lofts
his chanter and reputation in regard to his prole&
lion. It has been argued, that the prefent was an
inconvenient time for granting the accomodation re-
quired; but what would be the confequence Inert
any man to fay.. after having entered into a bargain,
that he felt it exceedingly inconvenient to pay toool.
to the perfon to whom he owed it ? It was peculiarly
indecent to hear filch an argument let up in that
Houfe, and he hoped he Should not hear an oblation
of inconvenience, in point of time, again Rated by
any Member in the Houle, when the quation was fo
evidently regarding the good faith .f Parliament.
Mr. TIERNEY obferved, that unlefs the Honour.
able Member who had jut Spoken on the other fide
meant to introduce party fpirit into every quefliony
be law no reafon wby he Mould have difctiffed this
fubjed with In much heat.—or charged his Right
Hon. Friend with intending to violate public faith.
The Right Hon. Gentleman argued in favour of the
opinion of his Majelly's Law Officers upon this fub-
jai, and the condo& which Minifiers bad purfued,
He particularly endeavoured to imprefs upon the
minds of Gentlemen, how ferioufly a vote in favour
of the motion before the Houfe, might operate to
embarraf. the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his
dealings to-morrow with the Gentlemen whom he
was to meet on the falai of the new Loan. They
might well (peak of a material change Since their salt
interview, if the Houfe fhould give a vote that would
imply that the holders of the Loyalty Loan Zooid
be immediately paid.
Mr. CANNING called the attention of the Houfe
to the nature of the deprifit which was ufually mad.
in bargains of this kind. If the depoßt operated as
an obligation on the cnntralors, it mull be equally
binding on Government. He law no reafon why
the bargain fhould not be equally binding on the one
party as on the other.
Mr. TIERNEY explained, and vindicated the
Ratements he had formerly made.
Mr. PITT declared that he had not a very dillind
recolledion of the terms contrafted on, or the alto.
ration that took place, but was certain that no corn•
munication could have been made to the holders of
the loan in regard to that alteration. He regretted
that he had not a difinft recollection, but entered
into a detail of the circumfatices, fer tar as his recol-
ledion could fervc him, and concluded by Rating,
that on the ground that the notice fhould be given at
the expiration of the two years from the figning of
the preliminaries of peace, and the fix months added
to the two years, the time of payment would turn
out to he pretty neatly on the loth of Oftober.
Mr. TIERNEY again explained.
Mr. H. THORNTON Miffed that the opinion, if
there was any, should be entirely in favour of the
Proprietors of the Loan, whereas inflead of par, to
which they were entitled, they were only receilflag
94 and 95.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Thorn.
ton reciprocally explained.
Mr. MORRIS thought that from the Stock being
at dilcount the natural inference was, that the hold-
ers had not fufikient confidence in the faith of Go-
vernment.
Sir W. PULTENEY was of opinion that Govern-
ment fhould raise no money to be paid at a certain
fixed d.ty. It was this dangerous mode of borrowing
money, the Honourable Baronet alledged, that had
rained the French Government, and which might
alfo be of ktious inc.liveniense to this Country.
The AT FORNEY GENERAL fpnke at ihrre
length against the motion, and principally- contended
that the terms uf the loan were not to be gathered
from the relolutiunl of the ClOllllll tree, but from the
Aft of Parliament as explatiatoi y of thole ref-Motion,.
Mr. S. • ThIORNTON, hunt the connation he
had woli the Bark, knew that no communication had
been made in that qiiarii.r i f th: alteration that had
been introduced into the ter.ns of the Loan by the
Aft of Parliament tuldequcnt to the resolutions of
the Committee.
A d.sitiun being now called for, the gallery w'-'s
cleared.—Ayes, ;G; Noes, !c.o. Majority against
the motion 24.
The rithei eirders of the day being difpnfed of, ties
adjoutoed at Lalf i:aq ten till to morrow.

I