Star.
London, England, 1828-05-13 00:00:00

Reply:ion ottimis BYis oar in progress through that House.—
Ordered to be Primed.
Mr: BENETT presented a Petition from a Parish in Somerset,
praying att. alteration 1,, the mode of taking averages of corn.—
Ordered to he primed.
Mr. ESTCOUBT postponed the second reading *of the All
Hoises Liesstaing Bill to the 19th instant.
air F: BUR DETTseed if itwas the Writhe of.the Govern-.
tent to found'oreg masers upon tbe Report of the Commissioners
relative to the water of thentetroi.olis?
Mt. Sancittary PEEL.saIL thit at'present he teuld glee n* de-
cided answer.
Mr. HOMIt DRUMMOND moved that the Ale Houses
Lie Vse referred to a Select Committee.—Agreed to.
116. O. CAVE moved that the Returning (Meer of the Borough
of Yea**. er be brought to the bar, in consequence of his having
ma. Pitted libreseb of privilege, in not making a certain return
Which:W.l)mA ordered by the House-
_.,_tilOctrual4R suggested that the Hon. Member had better
Sure.l.l ce of a motion to that effect, w which be assented, and gave
.Statics acerirditigly for to-morrow.
P1e..G.,8 A N K ES postpoord till the 9th of June, the third read-
ia Roman Catholic Land-Tax Bill.
T. RNN [SON moved, that the order of the day for the
Iltiuiektisolving itself into a Committee on the East Retford Dis-
franchlsceouqk Bill be deferred till Friday.
Mr. CDMIEY protested against the postponement of the fur-
tger consideration of the measure; as also against the unconstitu-
tional discujne of waiting to ascertain the proceedings of the other
House of Parliament.
Mr. TENNISON replied, that he wished to see what course
the other House would take, with reference to the Penryn Dis-
franchisement Bill. That matter was sure to be disposed of one'
way or other before Friday; and, besides, Friday would be the first •
order day.
Mr. N. CALVERT said, if a further postponemtnt was asked
for, be should take the sense of the House on it.—The motion was

agreed to.
Mr. FILER moved for a return of the amount of Contraband
Wrought Silk seised state July 5, 1826.—Ordered.
Mr. DAWSON -brought up the Report on the Stamp Allow-
ances' Rift.
Mr. RUME toovecl,-tbat the allowance to Distributors of Stamps
in Scotland should be only al per Cent. instead of 6 per Cent. which
would save the country front £15,000 to £35,000 a year.
Mr. DAWSON misted the Amendment ; and after a short Ms-
cussinn, consented to postpone the question till to-morrow.
.41i Message. from the. Lords announced that their Lordships bad
het
ghheir assent to several Public and Private Bills. For which
sede Report.
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.—ADJOURNED DIBATZ.
Ms. C. GRANT moved the Order of the Day for re-
senting the adjourned debate for the appointment of a
Coininittee to inquire into the Catholic Claims.- He
said, thatbefoie entering upon the discussion, he had to
express his regret at. having offered himself to their
notice on Friday night, at a period when the House bad
evinced no disposition to hear him. He could say, how-
tea:, that he did not often obtrude himself on their at-
. tentionl and be would not have besirated obeying the
wishes of the House, if an imperious sense of duty had
ant called upon him not to give a silent vote. He would
now request the indulgence of the House, while he ex-
pressed his opinion on this very important subject.—
Front the first time he bad the honour of having a seat
in IP'irrlianient he bad deeply considered the question,
and be continued ever since to give it his most earnest
support.. Belted narrowly watched the operation of
the penal laws in Ireland, and he was satisfied that
while a fragment of them was allowed to remain, there
could be no chance of happiness in that country. The
mote he consideredthe subject, the more convinced he
was of the necessity of coociliation. If he had entered
tipoirdeis great subject in thefirst night's discussion, be
wild Italie felt it his duty to go into it at considerable
length ; bet looking at the impression which the debate
must have made both in and out of this House, he would
limit his ebeetirmions to a few prominent parts of the
subject. The condition of Ireland required improve-
-Went, and the general state of the Empire required that
it should be'speedily effected. The House could not
have forgotten the- speech of the Honourable Member
for Kerry, confirmed, as it had been, by all the Irish
Members, by the Solicitor-General for Ireland, and the
Hon. Member for Lowth, a very considerable authority
on the SUM of Ireland. It now appeared that a vast
and organised body existed there, not known by the
Constitution, condemned by Parliament, exercising a
fiscal authority, and directing and controuling the
movements of the people at their own pleasure. How-
ever overcharged the picture might•be, if the smallest
portibn of it a/ere correct, it was most fitting for consi-,
deistical, and that without delay. The present state of
Ireland was a memorable lesson of the effects produced
by bad laws. The authors of the penal code, and the
sinters under it, bad passed away; but its pernicious
influence was still to be found throughout the whole of
Irish society. It ,was said, however, that make what
ceneession you pleased, Ireland would not be tranquil-
atitlAtie grounds of opposition to the present mo-
tion weiethi violent language tit the retitioners, and
the tangy, or if they wished, the violence of their di-
minds ; -bat this mode of awing was to him a speci:.
inenwf- the manner in which all improvements had been.
6111041141 to: "They made the rely evils of the laws tbe
grnood-nriatkfot their continuapce. The 'people were
driven brbad laws to commit acts of violence; and in
order to prevent its recurrence, they continued those
very laws. Th'at being the case, was it to be wondered at
that calamitous consequences should have resulted Isom
it ? He did not understand giving the Constitution by
piece-weals° Ireland; for it so happened that they gave
her eilat would sting and torment, in place of what
would 'make hex happy. heland should have the benefit
'tit* whole of the lit itisli Constitution, or it Would be
sit onip.to-expecs. to see her proiperous or contented.-1
Complaints were made that the power was in the hands
of agitators and demagogues; but that such should be
the case was not to be wondered at, when the badness of
the legislation was investigated. Then came the corn•
plaintitagaiust the Catholic Association. It was said
that the very existence of such a Society was a
proof that the Catholics ought -not to have any
further concessions made to them. He denied the
sOladitwy, of the conclusion. The Catholic Association
was the consequence of the systena pursued with re-.
• spect to Ireland, and ai. long as that system was
'retilietSd in, so long would the Catholic Associa-
WM, Or some such Institution, be supported—( Hear).l
•He was told further, that the Catholics would be satis-
• fied with nEs concessions short of the subversion of the
rrutcbs_or; at least, a full participation •in its posses-
:it Hon. Friend, the Member for Riponn, had
opon thetpart of the argument. He had stated
that, torty or fifty years ago, tkey had certain rights
toneeded to them, and they had espres,ed themselvei
. satisfied and highly grateful for the favour ,hown them.
the rights-0 which his Hon. Friend had alluded were,
•-ehe sight of is/open/44 moulage, of earistation, and of
exercising their religion, Those were the extraordinary
Concessions which bad been made to the Catholics some
half century ago, and he was molly astonished to hear
*is Hon. Friend record theta as thataionumenrsof Eng-
lish liberality. But Ms Hoe. Fsiend said, tint Whig
'those concessions were made, they wets hailed aviskal-

if on receiving such rights their gratitude was awakened,
what would be their sensations if all that they were
eititlid to were freely and cordially given to them ?
There were three clear, distinct positions upon which they
might have taken their stand: the first was, to grant
the Catholics neither toleration for their religion nor
civil privileges: thesecond was, to grant them religious
toleritia, but td exclude them from civil privileges;
and the third was to grant them the full enjoyment'
both of the exercise of their religion and of all civil pri-
vileges. The first system was acted upon during the
existence of the code; but that lid been abandoned,
and no other had been adopted. That House found'
itself between the other two positions. It found itself
there as by accident, and it became it to act wisely,
and to pursue the best, but at all events clear, intelli-
gible course. It would be even better for it to take the
wrong path than not to take any ; and until it did act
decisively it must not be astonished if its enemies ac-
cused it of caprice, while its ft lends were in doubt as to
what they ought to do. But his Honourable Friend
(the Member for Rippori) entertained apprehensions as
to the effect which would be produced upon the stabi-
lity of.the Established Church. He himself (Mr. Grant)
was a member of the Established Church, and he wished
to support it; but he should like to ask his Honourable
Friend whether he was prepared to leave the Established
Church with that feeling of odium attached to it, which
must of necessity be the case, if the Catholics were to
be denied their rights upon the ground that the Estab-
lished Church was to be maintained by such a proceed-
ing ?—(Hear.)—One 0 his reasons for supporting the
measure was, the conviction that its being carried would
be beneficial to the Established Church. He was de-
sirous of supporting the Established Church, not merely
by protecting its temporalities and the walls of its ca-
thedrals, but by_exciting in the minds of those who were
without its pale respect and confidence—(Hear, hear).
It was in its own inherent excellence, in the purity of
its doctrines, and in the virtue and ability of its Minis-
ters, that he looked for the stability and security of the
Established Church. And therefore be wished to do
away entirely with those laws of which the Catholics
complained; for he was convinced that there could be
nothing more prejudicial tti the bett interests of the
Established Church, than the opinion that it.could exist
only at the expense and injury of others. if the polity
of its doctrines, and the just principles of its Ministers,
were not known some time since, recent events had
clearly set them forth. But when Hon. Gentlemen
talked of insecurity to the Church from granting con-
,cessions to the Catholics, he would ask them if the

Church could be more insecure than it was at present
They were told that there was a band of malignant men
striving to overturn the Church, and that there were no
means at which they would stop short, so long as they
themselves were free from harm. They were told, too,
that the Catholic Claims afforded those persons a theme
for discontent, and enabled them to practice upon the
peace of Ireland. Why, surely then one remedy against
their machinations was pointed out. Remove the prime
subject ofabeir declamation, and of their dangerous in-
trigue and plotting, and it could not be said that by
doing so they left the Church in a more unsatisfactory
state than it is at present. There were some Honour-
able Gentlemen who were inclined to concede the
Claims, but they had some apprehensions as to the degree
of influence possessed by some foreign powers over the
Irish Catholics. They required security. He, for his part,
found an ample security in passing the measure itself.
His Hon. Friend the Member for Rippon, when speaking
of Prussia, had shown that the Catholics of that country
had given a greater security than bad been thought of
at the hands of the Irish Catholics. So that the Housel
was in a situation to reply to complaints by saying, why,
the Catholics in other countries have submitted to more
than we require from you. Since the conclusion of the
war, all the Powers of Europe had turned their atten
tion to the improvement of their internal condition.—
This country, in common with others, was now, as it
were, trimming the vessel—the finances were being in
vestigated, and the commercial and other laws were
undergoing improvement ; but beside attending to those
points, the Continental Powers were strenuously endea-
vouring to put an end to all domestic differences, while
this country unhappily totally neglected that all im-
portant point. During the last war Ireland had been
aimost miraculously preserved to this country. That,l
war placed us at the head of the commercial world, but
with peace came competition, and a new demand
was made upon our industry and ingenuity. He,
however, dreaded not that competition, if the people
were united. Let no man undervalue the effect
of union among a people, or treat with contempt the
consequences of a large portion of the nation being
estranged.from its interests, The sad and dangerous
effects of a divided people were seen and felt in the in.
eitations given to the attacks of foreigners in the under-
mining of a country's commerce in foreign markets,
through an understanding between the discontented and
the foreigner—(Cheers from the Qpposition Benches).
If those septiments had never before been uttered in
that House. their truth was well known and deeply
felt. They were no secrets. There was not. a nation
at all likely to be engaged in waravith this country that
was not fully apprised of them, and felt their weight
and importance. Every Power in Europe knew Eng-
land's vulnerable point, and had long turned its atten-
tion towards it. The proposition was that the House
should at once dismiss the subject, which was the re.
storation of Ireland to tranquillity and prosperity. But
per haps he was wrong in not saying that some remedies
were proposed. Education, mining, and the introduc-
tion of capital had been"spoken of. They were all good
propositions, but they would be all as nothing without
emancipation. No person had ever been so absurd as
to suppose that emancipation would of itself effect the
change so much to be wished for in Ireland, but lie was
co minced that it must be the preliminary step, the
:ground-work of all effectual amelioration of the con-
dition of that country. So long as the required con-
cessions to the Catholics were refused, there would
be a something rankling in the heart of Ireland that
would defy and render abortive the best efforts of Go-
vernment to give her peace and -tranquillity.—He
had abstained from touching upon some points to which
importance had been attached as treaties and expe-
diency, because be thought that the Catholic claims
stood upon much higher grounds. He advocated the
claims of the Irish Catholics on the principles of eternal
justice.—He ti aced them upon that compact which was
above all human controulthe unwritten compact
between ruling and the ruled—(Cheers). It was upon
ribose principles that he recommended the House of
Commons, and through the House of Commons the
•opla of England, to do a great and generous act in
fellw "

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