Star.
London, England, 1819-12-25 00:00:00

a .
prove of the utmost advantage. A,no.
of distress was the plifpnrseditHitige in the
The House was already in possession cif
Is which he entertained upon this subject.
, then intend to minim any discussion upon
conceived that some modification might
in the laws lately enacted, in order to re-
sin& of many persons, who apprehended
,as the result of their operation. The mo-
he a fished to see effected, regarded the
)ullion payments. He thought it would be
rdieut to extend the first price of the bul-
,ll the period included in the plan. By
is the oppo.rtanifj, and facilities of acquiring
tenting resources would be given to
He thought, also, that the same option
allowed to the holder of notes, as to gold
iould be extended also to silver bullion.—.
slifications, while they answered great ad-
to the Public, could not by possibility in-
the principle of the plan. For his part, he
:sitation in declaring it to be his conviction,
on in any shape would not Ise applied for by
is at the Bank. But althosigh he was
•con-
this, he knew that a great cloud and gloom
cast on the commercial world by the plan
Payments. He • would • now advert to the
a speech made by an Hon. Friend of his
:ardo). His Hon. Friend proposed as a re-
the distress of the country the gradual re-
he Corn Laws. Such a measure, he believed,
ave the effect of placing the agricultural
a level with the commercial interests, as to
.1 good deal of advantage might be g_ained
:qnsideration of the state of the Poor Laws.
friend had :Omitted a 'llan for the
liqui-
oi tiie National Debt. The plan was not
, and he would pledge himself, that if the
t f the Chancellor of the Exchequer were
I, it would be found that a similar plan
propbscd one hundred years ago. He
a,ain to assure the House, that the opinions
he had now expressed were not suggested to
any person, but that they were entirely the
his own deliberations. • He thought that
rue strong reasons in the case of the Petition-
. inducing Government to give it their most
attention, and he trusted that they would have
i:easure or other to propose by the next meet-
Parliament, with a view to remedy the appre-
ts of the commercial world, or in case that
'meat refused to bring forward any such
that they would then suffer an inquiry to

Petition was then brought up and read. It
in substance;—That the Petitioners were
impressed Kith a sense of the great distresses
at present prevailed throughout .the country,
:ey lamented, more especially, those which op-
the commercial classes. They did not pre-
a) say what were the causes of this state, but
t'sured that Honourable House that they saw,
regret, that the House was on the eve of ad-
iment, without some step having beet taken by
inquire into the causes of the distress they corn-1
id of, which, they felt persuaded, if the House
to do, a remedy would easily be found, when
the cause, or causes, of it were ascertained. The
ion concluded with expressing a hope that the
,e would take this matter into their most earn
weration, in order that the lamentable distresses
h existed in the country mightbe likely to meet
311 early termination. The Petition also al-
, to the other points mentioned by the Honour-,
Gentleman in his speech.
GIiENFELL thought that the House had
right to complain, not of the Hon. Member
presented the Petition, forhe was only diSchaat-
iis duty, but of the Gentlemen who originated.
Vition, because therstated that they were in pos-
id of the causes of the dimness, as well as of the

..of remedying it; yet they allowed Parliament
emceed in its sittings for one whole month, and
7, on the very day of adjournment, they came
and to tantalize the House with useless and un-
%lint topics. L was only at a late hour yesterday,
it he heard, and heard with great surprize, that a
ition was to be presented that evening to the
Aso, from the Merchants of the City of London.
' tots the more surprized, because having been in
City the most part of Wednesday, amongst va-
u hankers and Merchants, and having spent a
it part of yesterday also there, he had not bees
nixed that such a thing was in existence, or heard
• any application, or remonstrance, was made to
Ingle individual about it. As soon as the news
lied him, he supposed it was in consequence of
ie accident that he had not heard it. He therefore
den his business to inquire that morning, and he
uld now state the result to the House. He met
'4ll two persons who signed the Petition, and with
'ther who had been applied to mine it, but re-1
M. The latter was a friend of his, a Russian
achant, and he stated, that a Gentleman had ap.'
•ed to him the day before, as he was going out of
to sign the Petition. The merchant asked
it it was about, what was its object, arid by whoin
..tas signed ? "Oh !" said the other, "it is aPe
from the other end of the town—it comes from
Castlereagh—(A largh)--and I'll tell yea what
11T. The Honourable Member for Shrewsbury
F• Bennet) submitted.a 'motion, you are aware, for
•; : lotily into the state of the manufacturing dis-
.)ut he mixed up so much of politics in thetrio-
. :hat Lord Castlereagh felt himself obliged to
e it altogether—but, if there be a Petition pre-
' J, n ith a view to bring about an inquiry, with-
,: • a,bracing any political topics, then Lord Castle-
give it his support."—(Latighter). To this,
have Russian merchant replied, " Then if it
t:car Lord Castlereagh, that is a very good
•rr h I shall not sign it." (Hear, and laughter).
11Jr.ourable Member then said, that he had an
'.%•evi with one of those whom he had already de-
to have signed the Petition. This was an
livi raid connected with one of the brit tbnimercial
''`e•, nut only in Great Britain, bat in Europe.--,
Grcufell) asked this friend at se the nature',
the Petition, and the reasons which inanted him,
!::,;11 it ? He stated, he did not kriow what it was,'
't that being a milk and water sett of thing, he
ii4tl to the application to sign it! He (Mr. Oren-
Y 1 :hen went to the other individual who signed it,
this Gentleman gave his reply by letter, which
h leave of the House, he would read. The letter,
sib Hulce, was as follows ;•44 I signed the Petition

at the particular des*e -of a gentleman with. who sfel,
hair; bird" extensive dealings, and who ut
me to do so. t confess I thought the Petition a:11-1
eiv ti
diculons;. one but finding it to be harmless, and con.
t
in:Vegtte and ihdirect terms, I yielded to the
solicitation of my friend. However, on knowing
'What the trite object of the Petition is, Lam soriv ftsr
•igning it, and would willingly withdraw my barite,:
particularly if 'the Petition would have the effect of
renewing an inquiry into the currency.* Such was
the result of the inquiries he had made, and from all
he could collect with regard to the Petition, he was
sure it could not properly be called the Petition of
the Merchants of the City of London. Had his Ho-
nourable Friend who presented the Petition conftued
himself tolhe consideration of the removal of the re-
strictive laws on commerce, and the extension of the
British trade to China, he (Mr. Grenfell) would have
had no difficulty in believing that the object of the
Petition was simply to bring about an inquiry. But
the latter part of the Honourable Member's speech
furnished a clue to the whole. The murder was out
—the inquiry sought for was not to bring about an
alteration of the Restriction Laws—not to extend
our trade to China; it was, in fact, for .no other
' purpose than to subvert and destroy the arrangement
which, after mature deliberation, had been confirmed
last Session for the resumption of Cash Payments by
the Bank. The currency was the real object of the
Petitioners anxiety. It might be true that the Peti-
tion did not proceed from factious persons, but he
had no hesitation in saying, that it came from a party.
who, having been checked and crippled in their spe-
culations, wished now to create an alarm with a view
to alter the currency of the country.
Mr. IRVING said, the little intercourse which he
had with the class of men to whom the Petitioners
belonged, did not afford him the opportunity of
making such detailed inquiries as the Honourable
Gentleman who spoke last had it in his power to
make ; but whatever might be said or thought of the
Petition, he would confidently assure the House,
that the majority of the names attached to it be-
longed to the first individuals in this great City. The
Honourable Gentleman opposite had stated in detail
his communications with Gentlemen in the City, with
a view to throw disgrace upon the Petition, and in
order that his reflections might go forth to the coun-
try ; for in that House he was sure they would make
but very little impression. It was intimated that the
signatures to the Petition were of very small extent ;
but they were neither small in extent nor influence,
.and belonged to a body of great importance, which
claimed the attention of the House. It was rather
surprising, indeed, considering the hurried manner
in which the Petition was got up, that there had been
so many names collected to it. But the Honourable
Member said, that this was another attempt to sub-
vert the legislative measures of Parliament. He (Mr.
Irving) had already stated, that he received neither
instruction nor suggestion to make any specific re-
presentation—what he said entirely emanated from
himself—(Hear, beer!)—He had no hesitation in
stating, that however much he differed with the Ho-
nourable Member as to the means employed to effec-
tuate the plans of the Legislature Kith respect to
Cash Payments, he was as unwilling as ane one to dis-
turb the enactment of last Session, because the coun-
try had been. already put to the inconveniences of
tic STICeI'UTC• lie would say, that it was his decided
opinion that a great proportion of the distresses now
afflicting the commercial part of the country was
owing to that measure. Although it had not been
much lojs business to employ his thoughts upon the
subject Of that measure, still, if it ever came again to
be discussed in Parliament, he would be able to shew
that his arguments had as many adherents in the
country as those of the disciples of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman .who brought in the Bill origi-
nally. With respect to the attack made on the Peti-
tioners that night, he thought it had been highly
unwarrantable, and he trusted enough had been said
to shew that there was not the smallest ground for
the ridicule of the Hon. Member. This subject, so
distressing and grave in its nature, had been treated
with a levity of which he could not help complain-
ing. He concluded by repeating his desire, that his
Majesty's Ministers would, early in the Session, adopt
the inquiry prayed for.
Mr. J. SMYTH said he felt it imperative upon him
to state some facts connected with the Petition, which
he believed were known only to himself. He was
convinced that his Honourable Friend (Mr. Grenfell)
erred with respect to the way in which the Petition
had originated, merely through ignorance. He was
sure he could not say an unkind thing of any of the
very respectable characters whose names were signed
to that Petition, if he were not misinformed. The
fact was, that the Petition had originated with a
merchant of the first eminence, of large fortune,
great talents, and excellent character ; a merchant
who was' not connected with any of those persons
who engaged in speculation, but one who, if he did
enter into such speculations, had means to carry him
through them. With respect to what had been re-
ported of the interference of the Noble Lord, he
could confidently say there was no truth whatever
in it. He (Mr. Smyth) was called upon by the Gen-
tleman 'he had described, upon the subject of the
Petition, on Wednesday last. He was a person who
did not take any part in politics, but if he had any
feelings on the subject, they were not in favour of
Ministers. In the conversation which he (Mr. Smyth)
had with that Gentleman, not only the other topics
to which the Petition was said to refer were omitted,
'but he could positively state, that the Bullion ques-
tion was not introduced. The principle on which
be (Mr. Smyth) was applied to for his support to the
Petition, was the decline of trade, and the failure of
)propositions which had been previously made in Par-
' liainent, with a view to the investigation of the causes
of such decline, one of which propositions had failed,
because it was said to involve political doctrines ;
and another, because the mover unhappily entertained
some erroneous notions with tto the mode of
ameliorating the conditions Me lower classes of
society. The Petition before the House was, there-
fore, drawn up with a view to the exclusion of all
political matter, and all party feelings. Certaini#;
'great exertions were made to procure signatures ins-
Aiedintely, but that was occasioned by the lateness of
the period when it was first thought of ; for he could
positively affirm, that until a day or two ago It had
never been contemplated by the author Of it.
_lf,
therefore; exertion had not been made, it anild not
have been presented before the adjournment of the

~ • .
lipase. Al to bioltoilo64;ttri d ia/r. en • . iretoo
Ne*Was convinced \hit he knew nothing_of it earlier
than yesterday.' He (Mr. Smith) had been applied
to, in order to name a fit person to present the Peti-,
ton. Ile mentioned the name. of the Member for
Taunton (Mr. Baring), but that Gentleman could pot
littend. He then thought of another :Honourable'
leitd,-then at hisiight hind Mr. =eel, but for
'some reason he did not Undertake it. It vitas after•
wards that it was put into tilt/lands of the Ronan,.
able Gentleman wholiad jiist presented it. As to
the signatuies, they were of the most iespectable
class. He was sure the Member for Marlow (Mr.
larenfell) had not seen them, 9r he would have been
Surprised that so many very respectable names could
have been procured in so short a time. He ' trusted
Oat the objections which Ministers had made to other
proposals would not be found applicable to this Pe-
tition, and he thought that the immediate effect
of its reception would be to afford a ray of hope to
those who were suffering from the pressure of the
times—(Hear, heat).
Mr. RICARDO said, that he could not subscribe
to some of the opinions expressed by the Hon. Gen-
demon who present& the Petition, especially that
on the effect of the change of currency. He said it
was to be remembered, that when the House went
into the inquiry on the Bullion Question, the differ-
ence between the market and the Mint price of gold
was only fivb per cent. and now, when this country
was found to be in great distress, the Hon. Member
thought proper to fix upon the state of the currency
to account for it, and ascribed all the distress. of all
the countries in the civilized world to the fact of our
having, in so slight a proportion, altered our cur-
rency. He (Mr. Ricardo) did not think the cause
specified adequate to the effect. Another of the to.
pics, adverted to in the speech of the Hon. Member,
wits the plan for the payment of the National Debt.
He (Mr. Irving) had stated, that it did not possess
the merit of. originality. He was willing to allow
that it did not, and when he (Mr. Ricardo) had men-
tioned that plan, upon a former Occasion, he had ob-
served, that it did not originate with him ;—that
persons, previous to his existence, had contemplated
a similar mode of paying off the National Debt.—
As the opinion which he had given on that occasion
had been misunderstood, he wished to take the pre-
sent opportunity of saying a few words in explain-
.ion of it. There existed, at present, an inadequacy
in the capital of the country to employ its popula-
tion, and the great question was, how had that capi-
tal been rendertd -so inadequate at this time ? To
solve that question, it was to be observed, that when-
ever the profits of capital are lowtin this country,
and high in others, there is a natural tendency for
capital to go out of this country. This was as clear
and plain a proposition as any in Euclid. The evils
consequent upon such state of circumstances, the in-
terference of the Legislature had rather aggravated
than repressed. He thought the Corn Bill an in-
stance in point. He knew that it was not popular
in that House to oppose its principle ; but he felt that
he would not be doing justice to himself if he did
not avow the sentiment which he entertained respect-
ing it. It certainly aggravated the tendency to send
capital out of the country, and how did it produce
that effect? It raised the price of an essential neces-
sary of life. The price of lahnur W 26 consequently
raised, and that raised the expense upon the em-
ployment of capital, 'or lowered its profits. Thus
the evil was increased. As to .the National
Debt, it was unwise in principle—(icar, hear).—
True economy consisted in paying off debts as they
arose, and not in allowing them to accumulate. We
were now in the latter state, and it was to be-lament-I,
ed, but how to get out of it was the point to be con-1
sidered. If 'the accumulation of the debt had been
false economy, it was wise to pay it off. The doing
so would take away the temptations to the removal
of capital. Every portion of capital removed from
the country, increased the taxes and burdens which
the rest had to bear. To obviate duke evils, he had
proposed that an account should be taken f all the
capital in the country, and that it should be assessed
in a proportionate amount to the discharge of the
debt—(Hear).—He was aware it might be considered
an extravagant project; but he saw no difficulty in
it. It would certainly be a gigantic operation. In
three or four years it might be completed, and a
paper currency might be created for that particular
purpose, which would facilitate the object. This
could be done by giving to persons entitled to the
debt, checks for the payment of the taxes which
the contributors were to pay. It would prevent de•
mand upon the capital for that purpOse—(Hear).—
Having stated thus much, he wished to say some-
thing relative to what had fallen from the Honour-
able Member respecting a free trade. He had no
doubt, that if commercial relations were brought be-
fore a Committee, that it would be found there were
certain prohibitions in trade, which it might be de-.
sirable to get rid of. In this he (Mr. Ricardo) agreed
with him, if such a subject were only looked at in a
partial way. But the whole system ought to be
viewed together—and that system was not to be got
rid of. It it were even bad in all respects, it was so
engrafted on the relations of society, that it was not
to be done away unless by very slow degrees. The
Honourable Member who presented the Petition, had
given an opinion that some modification ought to be
adopted as to the price or time in which the payments
by the Bank were to be. made, in order to redress
the state of currency, and that the Bank ought not
to, be obliged to pay, until the market price of gold
fell to the Mint price—but he was of a contrary opi-
nion. He thought the more gradually the-prices
were assimilated the better. The only modification
necessary, he conceived to be, that the payments
should continue in bullion, and not be made in coin.
He never could see any good reason for adopting
that expensive circulating medium called coin.-r-
Paper would answer quite as well, when there was a
proper security for its value; and it would be betters
as the Bank had interest upon all the paper which
it could keep in circulation. He therefore thought,
that if any modification were to take place, in respect
to the laws orating the currency, it should, be to
make them permauent, instead of being temporary,
regulations. It.hod also been said, that it would be
better to adopt two metals than one for the purpose
that would be returning to comparative bar-
birisni from a state of civiliFatiun., The essential
point in all contracts was," that they 'should. be.lnina
)de fulfilled at the precise time contracted for. When
there was only one metal, there could be but one va•

•i 4 a 1 •
inao
nCilnitin;nr
!quadri; u Mot and eat% were a letel tender. the
currency-wad he liable to tPio variitions ; and if
three or more, the chances of variation would be
sotcworvamsi
drr commercial hwitriable
multiplied in proportion, and the inconveniences in
liable
on.
,ilsigoratirl,unliedcctooplipueZ,
61171
rtl- a
ss i
saying, that he would give' hiS support to the Com-
mimttere. firnmayed:Afyorb—oreheveestxpimecteondy'itotavotheolied
respectability
of the names signed to the Petition. He alloived that
he had spoken to many merchants who had not heard
ta3c-bv°7:..lFiyultfaliirjoberilds
of it, and that there had been accusations thrown
out in certain quarters, but they were not successful;
as to, the subject of inquiry, and the mode of it, he
said, he was not then prepared to give his opinion.
It was a difficult subject. But he believed that all
that Government could in general do for commerce,
was to preserve the internal tranquillity of the coun-
try, and allcw the operations of trade as.much free-
dom as possible. He said, that the measures just
passed for the purpose of restoring that tranqpillity,
were more for the advantage of the people than of
the Government. He asserted, that commercial dis-
tress arose from speculation and over-manufacturing,
and not at all from taxation, which he endeavoured
to prove, by stating, that in most of our manufac-
tures, even in the cotton trade, where distress was
greatest, we were enabled to undersell• foreign ma-
nufacturers, even in their own markets. He denied
that the poor of this-country, though in a heart-
!ending state of misery, were as badly off as the poor
in Germany and many parts of the Continent.
Mr. GRENFELL, in explanation, said, that lit
had been accused of having spoken with disrespect
of those merchants whose signatures were to the Pe.
tition. If any such expression had fallen from him,
he was extremely sorry for it ; but he was not aware
that there had. Within the last ten minutes he had
seen the names, and found they were highly re-
spectable. What he had before stated, only applied
to the manner in which he understood the signatures
to have been obtained.
Mr. DOUGLAS observed, that the Petition di
not profess itself to be from the Merchants am
Traders of the City of London. It only said, fror
certain Merchants, &c.' He thought it the duty
Government to consider of the present distresses,
'the country.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, he would not enter intc
the wide, and almost boundless, field of discussion
which had arisen in the Petition; but with respect
to the distinct question, he would say a few wort,.
The Mai. and Learned Gentleman then animadverted
strongly upon the manner in which his Hon. Friend,
the Member for Marlow (Mr. Grenfell), had com-
mented upon the signatures to the Petition. He paid
a high compliment to the character and talents
one of the Petitioners, a Mr. Macauley, and said,
appeared one of the names was that of his Hot,
Friend's (Mr. Grenfell) brother —( A laugh
concluded by saying, that it was not his intention
propose any measure to Parliament respecting
commercial distress of the country.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that entering into
any large field of inquiry would tend to disturb 's
public confidence, and therefore aggravate the evi
under which the country laboured. He said the Pt
tition was very respectably -signed, and expressed hi
willingness to pay attention to any precise and prac.
tical plan of inquiry that Honourable Members might
propose, but would not commit himself, at present,
as to any particular plan on that subject. With -
spect to the bullion question, he deprecated any mea.
sure which might tend to disturb or unsettle the regu-
lations within which the Legislature had confined it.
Mr. ELLICE said, that the signatures were most
respectable, but he thought that it could not be
dent or useful to embark upon a sea of inquiry.
expressed astonishment that Ministers declined
propose any plan, and left such an essential part
their duty to be performed by others.
Mr. Alderman WOOD would assure the House
that the signatures to the Petition were all highly
spectable, and he felt confident that the Petitioners
had no other object in view than an inquiry into r'
state of the Manufactures.
Mr. Alderman HEYGATE gave also his
mony in favour of the respectability of the
tioners. He took this opportunity of stating,
in his opinion, the great cause of the distress of
country was he diminution which had taken
in the circulation. That diminution affected
maierially the National Debt, added to the weigi
of taxation, and impaired the facility, of
operation in trade. He was confident that if the
lic were assured that the diminution in the ciri
tion had reached its last point, the distress would
find its termination.
The Petition was then laid on the table, and
dered to be printed.
LOCAL JEIRISDICTIONS.
Mr. SCA RLETT obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
certain inconveniences in local and exclusive Jurisdictions.
Bill was then brought in, read a first time, ordered to be
second time on Thursday, the 15th of February, and
printed.
The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought ,
an Account of the Duties paid upon Hops in 1819.
• The Ibuse, at a Quarter past Seven, adjourned to Thursday
'next.
The Literey Gazette, No. 153, published this day, contains,
besides the Index for the Year, a full Analysis of the Story
and very copious Extracts from the admirable forthcoming
Novel of Ivanhoe, by the Author of " Waverley"—Review'-"
the Antiquities of Pols, and curious Account of the
lachians, a People of Dalmatia—Beautiful Episode of .
nosti, from Anastasius—Corroboration of the Opinion
seated by the View of the Painted Chamber, that Oil Painth.
was known long before the received era of that inventioo.--
Poetry, from the pen of Walter Scott, an original—Dramatic
Criticism—and the usual variety of literary, scientific,
atnusing matter.—The Proprietors confidently assert, th
Work will be found to contain a more Complete Record
Literature, Arts, Sciences, and general Intelligence of the
than any contemporary Publication Whatever. In thtei
it has given ample Reviews of about Six Hundred New
-Sixty Original Biographical Memoirs of Eminent PersOns,
have died during that time; Descriptions of all remarkable
Scientific Inventions; Notices of Philosophical Discoveries;
Criticisms upon every Exhibition or Production of the
deserving of attention; lemarks on the Drama at horn(
slimed ; a View of Foreign Literature; Essays, 'Sketches
Society, Anecdotes, Jena-teesPrit, and other light Reading,
an extent that woidd ban many, common-sued volumes,
which only serve asvatietitt in the closely printed columns of
Literary Gasette.—Subscribers Who desire to ilegip with the
Year, will please to give their orders early to any News-vender
or lii:oksellet tO prevent disappointment, as only. a limited ad-
ditive will be made to supply suck demand,. nukes
'amount is previously ascertained--The Nice of each \
Publication is Sd. or Is. with a Stamp for the immediate
OLLS9IOII by the Post to any part of the Country.

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