Star.
London, England, 1826-04-11 00:00:00

• ...
had said on a former night, be (Mr. Cannine
—that the Treasurer of the Navy, being an'
in public trust, iusht to bold hictinalltaed his
the disposal of erstein ment, in (lAA- toapc
vantsasf Gower neeent :wise viitte.general 1 y over
'This was not 'newly his opiniisaws.he was statin,
what had beret mid by a committee trf that r
1817, at the time Mr. Rose held the office alone,
sive of anY:other office, with a salary of 4,00 a.
Report of that Committee, dated the 2.5 d of June in that
year, he found the following observations: "They esteem
the salary paid to the Treasurer of the Navy as much
too large, and recommend a reduction on any future ap-
pointment to that office, so as to place it on a level in
respect of emoloment-with the Paymastentof the Forces,
its present salary being the same as that Which woUld
have been lately received by the Paymaster of the
Forces, if the office had been held by one individual.
Your Committee, however, think it but fair to observe,
that in the oldest Naval Estimates extant, viz. from
1684 to 1695,' while the salaries of the Lords of the
Admiralty were, as at present, 10001. per annum, the
_salary of the Treasurer of the Navy was no less than
30001. per annum: and there is no doubt, that besides
his official duties, the Treasurer of the Nivy has been
frequently looked to as the person to whom important
Parliamentary and political business connected with the
Naval Department, and the general concerns of Go-
vernment, should be confided. Whether these latter

considerations will induce the House to continue the
salai y of 40001. or reduce it to 30001. or any other
sum, it is not for your Committee to inquire. They
have not in any case considered themselves called upon
to enter into political considerations of this nature, and
have recommended the reduction hereinbefore pro-

posed, on a mere view Of the duties of the office itself,
And on a principle of assimilation to the Piymaster of
the Forces. This was not his language, but that of the
Finance Committee of 1817, horn which it evidently
appeared to be in the contemplation of that Commit.
tee, that there might exist, properly, certain offices,
the holders of which might have time to spare from the
particular concerns of their own departments, for the
general business of the Government, and they alluded
to one case:—that et Parliamentary business, to which
such persons had to attend.- There were various Com-
mittees, especially, in which they might be called upon
to preside; and his Right Honourable Friend, at this
moment, was Chairman of a most laborious Com-
mittee. There was nothing which contributed so
much to break down the physical strength of a
Nob!e Lord (Caseereagh), whom he was not worthy
to have succeeded, as his laborious exertions in a select
Committee of th t Howe. For that it was contem-
plated by their own Committee, 'that there ought to
exist .offices of this description for the general business
of Government. The statements of the Gentlemen
opposite the other night were various: one said, that
the two offices of President of the Board of Trade,
and Treasurer of the Navy, ought to be inseparably
joined. Another-thought that the War, of the Trea-
surer of the Navy ought to be diminished; add others
objected to this measure, on the ground that the design
was to get another vote in Parliament. The Gentlemen
opposite had sonfessed that Government had done some
good things; Isot, on this supposed object of Ministers
`to catch another vote, they had bestowed every vitu-
perative epithet that could be applied to it. Now she
114144 cleat the present Government had shim) no d*.
position to increase the patronage of the trowri, or to
make offices for the sake of votes. The Hoe. aid
;teamed Member !Or Caine (Mr. Abercrombie) had sd:_.
mooed to the office of Vice-Treasurer for Ireland, mid
sense others; but the office et Vice •Treasurer for Ireland
Was tie new office: it existed before, under another
deriOminatiou.; Then, with respect to the Master
of the Mint, he was at the head of au important
commission, with a salary attached to it : but when
Mr. Wallace was made Master of the Mint, his salary
as Commissioner had been diminished, although it was
a most popular commission, and one whose acts had
been always highly praised. He claimed, therefore, fair
credit for the assertion, that when the present Govern-
ment wished to retain an office, it was because they ho-
nestly thought such an office ought to exist, and not with
a view to increase their influence in Parliament. What
did it signify to them to gain a few single votes ? They
did not want such single votes. Government must be
supported by the confidence and tryst reposed in it by
the great body of the House and the country, and was
not reduced to the necessity of canvassing for a few
single votes. If matters came to that pass that Minis-
ters must depend for their support on ten or twenty
-votes, it would be time for them to think of resigning
their offices. The present Government bad even been
very lax on this point, and had not insisted upon many',
Officers being in Parliament who really ought to be
there; and Ise intended to bring that matter under
consideration. He remembered when Mr. Pitt, Wu),
was himself equal in debate to any tea - or twelve
men of the present day', was supported by the
Master of the Rolls (Sir William Grant), and the
Master of the Rolls sat in Parliament until Sir Thomas
Penner was appointed to the office. It was clear, then,
that the presto Government had shewn no disposition
to create offices, in order to catch single votes in Par-
liament. There was another instance, in the case of
one who held an office which bore some relation, with
respect to thy civil Lew, to the office of Attorney-Ge-
neral, who had formerly usually sat in Parliament, and
had no seat there at present. In 18044 he remembered,
when a very warm and long debate arose on a certain
occasion, the %%hole brunt of it fill on the Master of
the Rolls and the King's Advocate. In what period
was there such * number of the profession of the law
among his Majesty's Opposition as existed there at the
paesent moment? What an advantage then would it
have been to the Minis.ers, to have had the Master of
the Rolls and the King's Advocate in the House on
such occasions, fg r instance, as the occurrence of these
Cnanc.ry Debates, and others of a. similar nature,
which lawyers alone could best understand? Then
Ministers had against them two eminent civilians
(alluding, as we understood, to Sir J. Mackintosh and
Dr. Lushington), and what an advantage would ithave
been to the Ministers, even in that view, to have the
assistance of the Master of the Rolls, the King's
Advoc gte, and the Judge Advocate, another Officer
who had generally a seat in that House? Never,
till the tinge of the present Government, had these
Officers been dispensed with in Parliament. Feum
,these instances it must be clearly seen that the Govern-
ment had shown no disposition to increase their in&
eace in Parliament by means of the votes of a few men
pia office, since Ministers had not taken, advantage of
opportunities of bringing such officers into Parliament.
They bad neglected these opportunities, althoult,b.
they might bate btoughs...these, officers into . Par.ll.
went, without affording the slightest pod ground of

they had neglected many 'opportunities of bringing men
high in office into that House. Then, with respect to the
diminution of the salary, and the exclusion of the Trea-
surer of the Navy from Parliament, he objected. to this
latter proposition more than to any, ether that had been
suggested. He objected to the principle of excluding
from Parliament Officers in high situations under the
Crown. It was of the greatest importance to the country
that the Crbwn should look to the Houses of Parliament
for persons to fill high and responsible public situations.
He knew no law that prevented the Crown from making
any one who was not in Parliament its Prime Mi-
nister. But he had never heard it said, that it would
be a good thing for the country that the Crown shoold
choose for Ministers persons not in Parliament. What
woup.hy.the effect of the Crown not looking to Parlia-
ment for its Officers ? Was this not a most useful check
to the choosing of Ministers upon a system of mere
favouritism ? Was it not beneficial to the country, that
the Ministers of the Crown should be men well known
in that House—men who had been long in the public
eye, and had proved in Parliament their fitness for
office ? Was not this a great security to the public for
the efficiency of the officers of Government, that they
should appear in Parliament and prove their capacity
for their situations? There were certain offices whose
possessors could not be excluded -from Parliament,
without lowering the standard of the Government, and
such an office was the Treasurership of the Navy. For
the sake of a vote, 'it would not be worth while to the
Government to take the trouble of debating this ques-
tion. He gave his opinion with perfect disinterestedness,
because it did not signify a hair to the Government,
with a view to a vote, whether the Treasurer of the
Navy should be in Parliament or not? But the conse-
quence of excluding such officers from Parliament
would be to make the high offices of State subjects for
scramble among mere favourites. The Gentlemen op-
posite might, themselves, soon succeed to these offices,
and he was, therefore, doing them a great favour in
resisting their proposition (a laugh). If it were acted
upon, then they would have for the great offices of State
persons of no higher qualifications for them than those
of bankers' clerk% The Parliamentary character ought
never to be separated from high and honourable office,
and never could be so separated, without great injui y to
the public, and the loss of that high respectability which
the Government of this country generally maintained. li
So much then, for the, notion of 'excluding the Trea-
surer of the Navy from Parliament; and now one
word with respect to the salary. That salary was
before 40001. per annum; and at the present time it
was 3,0001. It was now proposed to reduce it to
20001. He knew no principle upon which any one of
these sums should be preferred to the others; but where
he could not find a reason, he must look for a rule, and
a role might often servefor a reason. He found, in the
Report of the Finance Committee a statement, that 'Olen
this office was held alone it should be put on the
footing of„ that of Paymaster of the Forces. Here,
then, was a rule; end as the case mentioned by the
Committee was now likely to arise, that rule might be
applied to this office. The salary of the Paymaster of
the Forces was 2.0001. and &house. It was now Intended to give the
Treasurer of the Navy a salary 0f,2,11001.tbe additional 6001. being
in lieu of a house. He tact stated the reasons, which to him ap-
peared conclusive, why the Treasurer of the Navy ought not to be
'moved from his seat in .Parliament. It was unnecessardt to
, argue the third point, relative to the continued unity of the sakes
of President of the Hoard of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy, as
the propriety of that measure had not been attempted to be main-
tained by any body in the course of the debate.

The, House then divided, when there appeared,
For the Motion .
Against it • .
Majority . •

$7
76
--Il

Shortly after strangers were re-admitted to the gallery,
Mr. Secretary CANNING stated. that although con-
vinced that the decision to which they, had just come
was, technically speaking, the decision of the House of
Commons, yet he could not help regretting the smallness
of the majority by which the measure had been carried.
11 He was aware, also, that the expression of opinion, iu
some quarters, had been very strong against it, and
under the circumstances the Government would not think
proper to persevere in the course they had undertaken.
—He still considered that they should be perfectly
justified in pressing it as a matter of principle, but
viewing it as a matter of expediency. he thought they
wore bound to yield to the feeling of the House. His
Right Hon. Friend had expressed his content to receive
a salary of 2,0001. ibr the Presidency of the Board of Trade having,
annexed to it the ancient ace of Treasurer of the Navy with Its
present salary—(Hear).
Mr. TIERNEY trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would
bear this in mind for the future, and be could assure hint that the
conduct of his Majesty's Government had gained the approbation
of his Majesty's Opposition. (A laugh).
The CH A NCRLLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in con-
sequence of the determination of the Government, as expressed by
his Right Hon. Friend, it became his duty to propose the Amend-
ment to the Resolution. He still felt assured that the measure they
had recommended was right in principle. and be took this course
'without shame..(Hear). He should propose to amend the Reso-
lution by substituting 2,0001. instead of 5,0001. •
Sir M. W. RIDLItt, Mr. Alderman Tnosseson, and Mr. Hume,
expressed their approbation of the coarse which the Ministers had
jest adopted.
The Resolution so amended was then read a second time, and
leave was =ken to bring in a Bill founded thereon.
U-pori the motion of the Carincectaa of the Excamovaa, the
above BM, after two or three unimportant questions from *Mr.
Basso and Mr. Baton; wens through a Committee pro forma,
and was ordered to be.re committed on Friday.
Mr. GOULBURN obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the Re-
gulation of Prisons in Ireland.— Read a first time, and ordered to
be read a second time on Friday next.
The Irish Civil l'rocess Bill was read a second time in order to
be committed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented the Report of the
Committee on the Insolvent Debtors' Bill was read a
second time with the amendments, and ordered to be read a third
time on Monday next.
Mr. HUNK put a question to the Attorney-General as to the
exorbitancy of the fees charged in the Insolvent Court.'
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that before the third
reading of the Bill the amount of those fees should be inquired into,
sad if band to be exorbitant proper amendment should be intro-
duced to remedy the evil.
Mr. HUME wished the Crown Debtors should be placed on a
similar footing with Common Debtors. He was aware of one
instance in which an unfortunate man had been confined four years
for a debt,of ten pounds.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL suspected that the case was
not correctly stated. If, however, it had really occurred. and if
the fact had been communicated to him, the man should have been
liberated immediately.
• Me. S. CODARRobtaired leave to bring in a Bill to amend the
laws relating to the relations impounding of cattle Ist Ireland.
HBRItIES brotightin a BM to regulate the thus efwirell•
menu for Articles of Clerkship.

tte)4osl itow objection to the Gentlemen opposite. This was'a proof,
Ofteithigh tititityt_syrjetting to divide thesirtwo .ant; Ministers
his talestaat Oat actualedrhy any *titre of Parliinterlity
ire those ser., iffileepte; and they (*Ay wite4l. to retain 04.oeices,
rer-labottred. `Wit* the power of elating in Parliament, bAcsete 'it
stating only Wits their sincere conaittioes„ that the coarse they were
tat House .fstrsaing was benefidal to the country. 'lt Was hardly
atone, exclti= pots Qts really to think that their object was to increase
Oa. In the their influence in Parliament, when it was known that