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PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 8.

Their Lordships met at an early hour, and heard an Appeal
on a Writ of Error from the Court of Chancery, Cormure v.
Williams, when their Lordships affirmed the decree of the Court,
with costs.
Their Lordships then adjourned daring pleasure.
THE STATE OF THE MARSHAL‘EA PUI'ON.

The House being resumed About five o'clock,
Lord HOLLAND called the attention of their
Lordships to a subject which, on a former occasion,
he had felt it incumbent on him to submit to the
consideration of the House—the State of the Mar-
shalsea Prison. At the period referred to he had
mentioned the case of a man who died in that prison,
and whose death, according to the report of the Co-
roner, was occasioned by a w.lnt of necessary soste-
uance. The truth of that verdict was disputed or
doubted in that House. Upon diligent and minute
enquiry, however, since, he was folly convinced that
it was correct. He was aware, indeed, that measures
were taking for the erection of a more commodiour,
prison, instead of that of which there had been so
much reason to complain, and from the character of
the Noble Lord under whose care that new building
was to be constructed, Ite had no doubt that evqry
just and humane attention would be paid to the cott-
ifort of the unhappy persons who were doomed togn.
habit it. He could not, however, omit that occasion
of pointing out distinctly some of the striking evils
attached to the present prison. It was locally, and
in point cf space, extremely incommodious. The
difficulty in the way of a poor prisoner to establish
his claim to be admitted to the Poor Ward was al-
most insuperable, and there was no adequate distinc-
tion made in the treatment of criminals and pei.inns
merely unfortunate. His Lordship gave notice, that
unless something effectual towards his object should
be effected by his Majesty's Government, in the
interim, he should early in the next Session make a
specific motion for that purpose.
STATt OF HIS MAJEsTY'S HEALTH.

. .
Earl GROSVENOR moved, that an humble Ad.
dress be presented to the Prince Regent, requesting
that his Royal Highness would be phased to order
that the Report of the Physicians delivered to the
Queen's Council he laid before that House.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL acceded to the motion,
observing, that if he had not-been anticipated by the
Noble Earl, he should have made a similar motion.
The motion was of course agreed to by the House.

AMOUNT OF THY. ISSUE OF BANK NOTES.

The Earl of LAUDERDALE morA, that the
accounts lately presented at their Lordships' table,
according to order, respecting the issue of Bank notes,
be printed.— Ordered.

GUINEAS AND BANK•\OTES.

The Order of the Day for the third rtading of Earl
Stanhope's Bill respecting Guineas and Lauk-notes
being read,
Earl GROSVENOR rose to express his decided

, . .
disapprobation of the measure, which he conceived to
be in its tendency essentially and deeply injurious to
the interests of the country. Upon the first introduc-
:inn of the Bill, the Noble Secretary of State (Lord
Liverpool) opposite, thought professing himself an
approver of the principle, appeared to conceive it un-
necessary, and as such) to oppose it. The same opi-
nions were expressed by another Minister, and he
}eft the Meuse in the confidence that the Bill would,
in the first stage of it, be rejected. His astonishmerr.
therefore, afterwards was great, on hearing that those
very Ministers had afterwards thought fit to promote
• the Bill. He, however, must then enter his solemn
pretest against it. He should not, indeed, at that
period, after the question had been so fully and so
ably discussed, take up much of their Lordships' time.
lie would briefly suggest, that the only hopeful
' course remaining for Parliament to take, under the
neesent circumstances of the country, would be by
taking off the Bank restrictions, He justified the
act of the Noble Lord (King) in the circular letter
to which allusion had been made, and thought that
Noble Lord was fu.ly warranted, by the depreciated
state of the Bank paper. The Bill before their Lord-
ships prolesied not to make Bank paper legal tender, •
i but it virtu Lily did so ; and he earnestly conjured '
their Lordships, instead of that light and onsubstan-
.
tial manufacture, the paper invented in 1797, to re-
, store the solid English oak plank, on which the cre- ,
dit of the country previi usly rested. He earnestly I
i hoped the Bill would not pass into a lass ; for if it
did, he ahtadd think that he heard the funeral hell of
his country tolling.
Lord KING had expected to hear from Ministers
some plans:hie arguments, at least in justification
1 the part they had taken on the presert occasion.
But it was manifest that their real object was to pre-
vent the necessity of an open declaration and avowal,
that Bank paper had suffered depreciation, and there-
ore they resorted to a schwa-Inge, which they could
not maintain, either theoretically or practically.
They I-ad in 'rain attempted to assimilate the in-
a: :ince in 1797, either in the general circumstances
of the country, or the peculiar credit of the Bank,
o the present time ; and it was completely idle
For them to argue, that because 'a pound rifle I
fl is teen good for twenty shillings, it was so
it piesent. Nothing could be ;Tit re manifest
;tin that whenever Bank Paper ceased to be answer- I
able in Cash, Cash must rise and paper fall ; and all '
attempts to resist that natural and inevitable conse-
quence would be orily waiting time and legislating in
air, unless indeed a Minister or any man should be
ound hardy enough, and desperate enough, to .go
hat length, threrninons length, to which France Te-
rmed, in compelling the currency of her turignats—
rhe Noble Secietary of State had offered only one
eas n or attempted one argument in justification of
is conduct, and in that he had shown himself entire-
. ignorant if the great agricultural interests of the
minty. For what security or protection would re-.
iaM for Landlords if the Legislature should once

(interfere with leases? If they should proceed in "Itch
la way, if they should declare Bank-notes ,legaligsin-
I der, they would put an end at once to all cAtracts.
In short, there wts no other alternative left for the
Legislature to adopt than either to restore the cur-
rency of coin or to resort to the ruinous example of
I France.

Lord ELDON professed himself to have been a
!faithful law servant of the State in the year 1797,
j when he took, or joined in recommending, that bold
!step 'which since had become the topic of frequent
'controversy and alarm. That step had not been
adopted without due deliberation and great reluc-
tance. But the necessity of the times imperiously
called for it ; and the same or a similar necessity ap-
peared to urge and justify the present measure.—
Undoubtedly, as the law stood, the Noble Lord who
had issued that circular letter whose contents and
'object bore so closely on the present discussion, might
urge the literal fulfilment of the contract he had made
with his tenant. He might exact his " pound of
!much
;" but in the prosecution of such a purpose
!much difficulty would arise, not to the tenant only,
jbut, ultimately, to the landlord, who, in the event of
la well-contested litigation, would be obliged to ac-
cept those very Bank-notes which he at first so pe-
lremptorily rejected. Such being the case, he thought
that for the peace of society, and the maintenance of
social concord, Parliament ought not to separate until
some effectual measure should be adopted OH the.sub-
lject. With respect to the object immediately in view
of the Noble Lord, whose circular letter he had A-
lluded to, he would suppose himself a tenant to that
;Noble Lord for his house in Bedford-square, at £3OO
•annual rent. The Noble Lord might demand Gni-
, neas, but Guineas not being to be had, the next steps
to be taken by the Noble Lord would be such as
perhaps, considering the wupons and tool: of trade
that would be called into use, would give him ulti-
mately a decided advantage over the Noble Land-
lord, and on that account, if on no other, he thought
the Legislature ought to interpose. The base, heart,
and marrow of the bill was to prevent partial depre-
ciation of a currency essential for the public conveni-
ence, and to establish that, if that convenience requir-
ed such a currency, it should pass at its declared
value. But the Noble Lord (King), instead of look
ing at current circumstances, had been amusing his
:leisure with inspecting old contracts, and had not
veryc acurately ascertained their bearings on the pre-
sent times. If the Bill of 1797 was right in its pro-
visions and its object, the House was called on to
support the present 1141, and without such a Bill the
tenant, as the law stood, might meet the landlord at
arms length, and endless evil and litigation would
ensue. The Judges he knew would do their duty in
any and all cases which might come before them ;
but they must be bounded by the law as it stood.
ISuppose he had in 179(3 deposited, what might have
been his whole property, £3OOO in Gold at the B-ink,
and at the present period, being called rot by his
landlord for his house-rent, £C9O, and that Gold for
that sum were insisted on, he might go to the Bank,
remind the Directors that he bad given them in trust
his Guineas, and that then in his need he wanted
some of his guineas in return. His application world
of necessity be in vain ; and such being the known
state of things, it was incumbent on Parliament to
come to some rescluti. n'to obviate the inconvenience
and the evils reailtint from it, and to secure the pub-
lic tranquillity, without which all our foreign achieve-
ments, splendid and triumphant as they were, would
appear little and valueless.

I Lord GRENVILLE rose, and prcfessed his utter
disappointment in the speech of the Noble and Learn-
' ed Lord, a speech which left him entirely ignorant
tof the intended effect, operation, or meaning of the
Bill. The Noble and Learned Lord, indeed, had
stated, that there were various modes of obtaining
payment, while the Bill stated that it was only to
take away the remedy by distress. The question had
become, not one confined to landlord and tenant, but
extended to all men and to all countries. Painful and
astonishing as the Noble and Learned Lord's speech
had been to him in one instance, at least it was satis-
factory, for it set out with boldly declaring, that the
Bank restriction was a tight measure. It stated all
the evils, the inconvenience and the horrors, of the
system, but never once adverted to the injustice of it,
or remembered to fix upon the transaction the seal
and character Of its pernicious principle. Was the
Noble and Learned Lord prepared to answer for the
consequences el the Bill ? Was the Nob:e and Learn-
ed Lord to learn that the maximum in France was de-
fended precisely in the same manner and by !he same
argumeras which he bad used that night ? These
aigumetas, indeed, had been adduced in France by
persons who were proceeding experimentally, and
could not know the consequences ; but the consequen-
ces, fatal!) proved as they had been, we were puin-
ing, with the facts before our eyes, the self-same
course. The Noble arid Learned Lord had said, that
the Act of 1'797 eTected what the present Bill went
to establish ; it so, it was high time to come to a right
and definite understanding, Especially considering the
natural tfExt of the speeches of the Noble Lords oppo.
site, and especi ally that ofth. Noble and Leal ned Lord.
lie hoped that no other &Terence between debtor and ,
creditor was meant to be made 1y the prevent
that which was implied is the Bill of 1797. That Nil
was passed only as a temporary measure, and on the
persuasion at that time that it was necessary. Upon
the ground only of its behig deemed necessary for
the public safety, did he support it then; and he
thought it unbecoming the character of a public man
not to avow that he was afterwards convinced he
formed an erroneous opinion on that occasion, and
one that he deeply regietted. It was, however, well
known that it was only as a temporary measure that
he did support it, and th tt when afterwards the pro-
position was renewed, it met with his utmost opposi-
tion, and the Noble and Learned Lord, in contending
that the same urgency for such a measure was exist-
ing, as that which suggested the Act of 1797, was
arguing upon a complete fallacy.. 'There was, at that
period no diminetion or decay, or even the suspicion
of in the public credit, in the situation of the coun-
try, the finances, the public security, or the bullion.
So far from the real credit of the Bank being at that
time impaired, the Bank itself, in the year 1798, ap-
plied to Ministers, and intreated them to take off
the restrictions. There did not then appear the
least pretence or shadow for its continuance. One
small circumstance of difference had•been kept out
of view. When the restriction in 1797 took place,

~—. .
there :tree no view h the mind of any utast of de-
preciation ; there vas then no idea of any differ-
ence ll*tween the value of paper and
.9f geld; and
such an equality miglit even still have prevailed,
if it had not been for at improvi. t. and
boundless waste which •. ; present Ministers • ap-
peared to think it their glory to pursue: That
unhappy propensity of Ministers had become indeed
no small addition to the stock of the national cala-
mities, and no hope seemed left for the country, but
a quick departure from' that fatal system, and a return
to prudence, economy, and common sense. The an-
nual expenditure of 90 millions far exceeded our
means, and the remedy proposed by the Noble and
Learned Lord would only aggravate the evil ninety
fold. It was incumbent on the Government to exa-
mine, step by step, the progress they had made, and
carefully to retrace them. Reparation, perhaps, is
as impossible; but much good might result from
chewing the public that Ministers have some consci-
ousness of the condition in which they have placed the
country. Such was his general view dithe subject.
The Noble and Learned Lord, in the Mew he took
of the relations of debtor and creditor, seemed to
forget that while he was anxious to secure the one he
was adopting a methoe that must he injurious to teeth.
If the powers by which a landlord can claim his rents
be found to be unjust, let it be at once distinctly and.
explicitly repealed. But their Lordships ought not
to sanction what they were afraid to meet openly and
fairly. In what a situation was a landlord to be left,
i thinkiug (though erroneously) that he had a right
to dem.ind of his tenant his rents in stipulated coin ?
The Noble Lord, in adverting to the decision of the
Judges, observed, that in order to carry his system
into effect, this Government had ordered prosecutions
upon obsolete statutes, in order to make Bank notes
legal tender, and thus, by a side wind, to produce
that effect which they were afraid to come to, and
propose to that House openly ; and if not greatly mic-
informed, he understood that that decision of the
Judges was unanimously pronounced ; and whatever
might be thought otherwise before they were now
bound to consider it the law of the country, that
Bank notes are no more to he considered a legal pay-
ment, not sanctioned by the authority of the Govern-
ment—and that Bank tokens being, as they are, base
coin, they arc also unauthorised. He did not mean
to say any thing invidious ordisrespectful of the Bank
of England, because he regarded the Bank of Eng-
land as one ~f the main pillars of the credit and com-
merce of this country. If their Lordships were to look
into those writers upon the subject, if they looked to
the various debates in that House, they would find
lithat the Bank of England was distinguished from all
other Banks in all other countries—those Banks could
Inot exist without the interference of the Government,
and this was the reason why the Bank of England
I flourished, because through her was permitted the
I circulation and commerce of the country to flow.—
I And it was not to an overplus of paper currency that
the present evil was to be attributed, but to the la.
vishing waste of the Government ; and with respect
to the Bank tokens, they were only of the intrinsic
value of the metal which they contained, and when
compared with legal coin, were 1-sth less than its
nominal value, and all this was sanctioned by the
Government. Poll contracts which were made for
weeks, for months, and for years, were made with
.reference to the coins of the realm, of a known stan-
dard, and given quantity. Issuing a debased cur.
volley, to be taken far its nominal value, was a gross
fraud and robbery on all those who had made such
contracts, and to whom such payments were made,
and the result of all these blind workings must be
eventually most calamitous in their effects—and this
measure, so far from reducing, must increase those
calamities ; and he desired their Lordships to consider
whether this Bill did not increase the very evils which
it endeavoured to avert. But that there was a difference
in the value between paper and gold, and the House
of Commons were of opinion that this difference ought
not to exist, could not be denied; and tae injustice
which followed was not truly ascribed to the year
1797, because the difference in value between paper
and gold did not then exist. In this case, as well as
the former, the sanction of Government to injustice
was attended with considerable calamities ; and the
moment they interfered to give an artificial value,
and a ferced currency of paper, the consequence must
:be a depreciation. He knew this from an experience
lin the subject much greater than any individual in
that House ; and if this measure was to pm into a
' law, they must szeel their minds not only ag,,inst those,
but against still greater calamitis.
The 1.,0 R 1) CHANCELLOR shortly explained.
Earl STANHOPE thought nu harm io the obser-
i vation of his Noble Friend (Lord Greuviile) because
i it arose from not understanding the difference be-
I tween two words, which were generally considered
synonimous—value and price. He would putt a case.
Suppose two editions of the same book published at
different yens, if cue became a scarce edition, to him
1 who was cm ious in his editions of books it might be
of eneat value, and he might give a great price for
I it, but to him who only wanted these two books to
1 read, he would put the same value upon each ; thus
it was a nre:e squabble about the words value
and price. But his Noble Friend argued this question
cerr.rinly irs well as he could, and because he enter-
-1 tained an opinion that it was not a legal tender, that
the Bank notes were depreciated, and the coin de-
based, and therefore, that this measure was a gross
fraud and robbery. Ee should also argue the ques-
tion as well as he could, and say it was no such thing,
Suppose he went to his banker's with 20 Guineas in
one hand, and E2l in Bank notes in the other, and
desired credit for them, he would enter them on his
fleas as E2l each—then the banker's opinion must
be that they were of equal value, and give credit in
his books as such. But the Noble Lord wanted a legal
definition of this opinion. Nuw he would give them
a definition that should shake them to their founda-
tion—that. things which are equal, am equal to one
another. How then, could any man say that the pub-
lic cre‘lr.or was to be told that this was a depreciated
paper and a base coin, and that he was guilty of
fraud and robbery ? was it not the duty of his Noble
Friend, who was Minister at the time the Dank stop-
ped payment, to prevent this very system, and was
he not guilty of fraud and robbery ? He considered
the law prohibiting the exportation of guineas an ab
surd law, which should be expunged from the Statute
Books, as he thought Guineas might be exported as
well as any ether commodity. It was his fate for nine
years of his_ life to live in a litde place which had its
r--

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