Star.
London, England, 1829-05-08 00:00:00

chatters.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he .was folly sensible of I
the importance oftbe subject. It was not his fault that
the resommtodation of the Committee had not beets
carried into effect. That Committee bad recommended
the employment. of an eminent surveyor (Mr. Telford)
to survey the country round the metropolis, and tours-
gest a practical plan for securing an ample supply of.
pure water; but be (Mr. Peel) felt bound to say that it
would be a most objectionable proceeding to compel
Government to take steps for the supply of any of the
wants of the metropolis. would be a fatal innovation
were Government (like that of a despotism) to interfere
in the supply of any of the necessaries of life—(Hear).
Moreover, having done that, they might be called upon
to manage the supply of gas. or the srrangemeats of
markets ; and, afterwards, having done so for the me-
tropolis, they might be called upon to do as much foe
Manchester, Edinburgh, and other large provincial
torus and cities.. At the some time he did admit that
the supply &water. both as respected quality and Tian-
tity, required improvement, and he had asked Mr. Tel•li
therefore, the probable .espense of a survey such
as that recommended by the Committee. Mr. Telford'
replied it might beS,OOOl. or 4,0001. but would Dot era-'
,detteke to say that even 5,0001. would be sufficient.-1
:Under these circumstances his Majesty's Government
had not felt themselves authorised to make such a large
advance. Repeated complaints had been, and continued
to bo made, of the conduct of the Water Companies,
that the water aupplied by them was deficient in quan-
tity and impale in quality, and that the pr.ce charged
was increased with those deficiencies. The consequence
would be thist, unless some improvement were imam,
aisiely to take place, new Companies would the up,
ieho, by the encouragement they would receive. won't,
teilfh tho present Companies that they had forgetters,
their own interests when they neglected or violated the 1
principle of their contract.
Alter a few obeereatiests from Sir J. Watimustar, Sr C. lbw
eau, sad Mr. Wasimmese, the Mina dropped. .
roots, taws-4111LA esp.
Mr. SADLER rose to present a petition from the
manufacturers and farmers of the town of Clare andits
vicinity, in the King'. county, Ireland, praying that the
House would take into consideration the subject of the
poor laws, with a view to extend them to Ireland. The
Hon. Member proceeded, amid expressions of impa-
tience by the House. to read the petition, and to sup.
pert the arguments of the petitioners. The benefits
anticipated by the.petitiones from, compliance with
their prayer, were the extension of capital and the este
blishment of manufactures in Ireland.—the creation of I
a tax upon absentees--the increase of wealth—the more
firmly binding of the people is bonds of loyalty to his
Majesty's Government—the rendering of Ireland a
more agreeably country to reside in—the establishment
of what might well be called a moral police, by giving'
the superimeodence of the poor laws to respectable
classes of society, and, finally. the more effectual
friendly incorporation of Catholics and Protestants.—
(The symptoms of impatience displayed early in and
continued throughout the Hon. Gentlemates speech,
here became so loud as completely to render him inau-
dible.) Hon. Gentlemen (continued Mr. Sadler) were
wrong in thus interrupting him, for. had they allowed
him to take that opportunity of delivering his send-
menu on the question itself, they might escape the in-
fliction of a long speech. to make which he had come
down fully prepared--(dear, and a laugh.) He should
at present, however, content himself with moving that
the petition be now read.
Lord OXMANTOWN expressed his surprise at the presents-
dna by the Has. Member of mush a redden Irma a town in. the
cowry which he (Lord 0.) had the honour to represent. sod of
which Petition he had not before heard.
General GASCOYNE senesced to the Has. Member for
Waterford the 'Reedited of posers.* the toseideration of the
triestion referred to in the resides that night.
Mr. V. STUART said he would be quite wales to take that
course, if agreeable te the Home; but ha did am know the moment
at which he might not be obliged so proceed to [reload. and that,
therefore, soles. he brought it forward riew,le could not say when
it world be In his power to do se.
The Pedalo° was then ordered to be printed.
Mr. MAXWELL presented a Petition from the Freeholders
and Commissional. of Supply of the county et Renfrew (to which
he begged is caliche emotion of the Right Hon. the President of
the limed of Trade), praying that means might be takes for .star.
bile/ring eased rate of wages for mane cueing labourers.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that if kis Majesty's Government
bad not already Imetfered on the subject referred to In the Pal.
ties, it was net that It had not attracted their attendee ; and be
mast say that the exemplary redeem and forbearance of the with-
in' classes in that part of the country whence the Petition came
Daly made him the mere anzious to attend to any representation
of theirs—Q.4er} Us felt bounilito state, however, that to attempt
to Si by law a mahouts or a soleistaun, or any certain rate of
wages, would operate to the disadvantage of those classes them.
silver; Weaver if thewages of a workman were fixed at ad. or
fits.
a day. the nianefaanne would only employ tuck persons as
were fully capable of email* mach. These were a few of the
masons which induced hies to believe that the prayer of the Peti-
ole...moo& not to be compiled with. U [either Wormed=
were desired, It would be found in the Reports of the three Com-
mittee. that had sat on the subject.
The Petition was thee ordered to be printed.
Mr. W. PRIM presented accounts of the number of Charities
sad of Charitable Donations for the benefit of the Peet in England
did Wales.--Ordered to be printed.
Mr G MURRAY emoted that there be laid before the Horse
copies of the corresponsinice that had taken place with the Colonial
Derailment respecting the Swan River settiosiest.--Agreed is.

IRAs? NETIONIN
Mr. FA NE. in rising to bring forirArti his motion to isms writs
for Me election et two Members foe the borough of East -Soiturti,

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Paws SRI/101MM

observed that the *abject hid beim new two years before the Home,
ad uit was net likely that it would be Basally settled In tide Ses-
sion, lie watered on the course which be was now pursuing (bow.
ever sensible he was of his inability) rather than that tbelsayethest-
taiga should he any looter in a state of empensloo. liseehounLt
it a great hardship that the people of Bast Method oboe* be foe
three years deprived of their just right to be represented is Paella.
mem, but be thought it a still greater evil that the Home et Gib.
mow should take epos Issai to sespeod the right of election. If
they could do so ice one hamar, they might do it Id one hundred.
lie hoped the House would agree with him hs thinking it wee m-
ammy that the representation shield be complete. The Honour-
able Headset then moved that a new writ should be Issued fir
Bast Retard.
Mr. IL G y RNEY said, that as the only public geed which was
at' one time likely to Sow from the disfranchisement of this borough
having failed, be should cute for the present moths°. lie regretted
very much the dedsioi which the Boom bad eons, to, in refusing
to transfer the franchise to Birmingham; but as that bad been de-
cided Imam he should prefer leaving she borough as it stood, to an
eateadon of the franchise to the adjoining hundreds.
Lord HOB PRTH supported the niacin°. The vote oft farmer
evening had left him nothing but • choice of dillies& les. He did
not see any public good likely to follow (nun a transfer et*.
franchise co the bemired* at iimettaw. It would be nothing short
of hypocrisy in Parliament eat punish Individuals without any pelts
good, and vishieg pasobbruent upon a solitary borough, without
attenspupg to correct or cheek the Emend corruption.
Lord W. rAwLgrr regretted the vete which had been passed
In a former evening, as it plainly showed the clearest rest of
esteroptims wouldbe isissilleimst wisdom the Mom to adept the
ma. Hedged reform; bin he prebend the eztenvion of the Gan-
chin to the issuing a new writ. He should therefore oppose the
wooer.
Yin J. W KOTTEiLitIr thought ft very desirable that Dir.
Misisbans should be represented its radiallloll, and Ito was sure, if
ehas, and whir papoloas towns, were represented io Parliament,
it woold, In doses of distress, be a great means of allaying distur-
bakes. Bo t alter the vice of a former evening he should vote for
the nods&

Ste W. HIATHCOTE said be would vote against the motion,
hecatomb* wished to lee some reform IA the borough of Raeford.
Lod .1. RUSSELL thought the proposed reform too insignifi-
cant to meet the justice of the ease, and the wishes and rights of
the people ; but trilling as it was, be should pester it to leaving the
borough as it Dow steed, exposed to the greatest corruption. He
likewise thought it would be degrading to the theirs it they Issued
a new writ to such corrupt 'lesion ea t►ase et East &nerd had
I been proved to be; be amid therefore vote against issuing a new
writ. When the monis should be made for 'moat( the franchise
so the adjoining Hundreds, be 'Meld oppose that snetion,aod stove
that thrburough be disfranchised; if he succeeded he alsould pro-
pose to give Members to Birmingham, Manchester, sod Leeds.
Mr. FERG USSON could sot consent to a new writ, which was
nothing bet a power to the likens* again to earn the wages of cor-
ruption.
• Sir. TENNYSON opposed the modes. He should prefer to
see the Borough altogether disfranchised ; hot so a compromise be
would menet to leave one of the two Members to the landed in-
kiest, if the other were gives to a trading tows ; t►is would be
adopting the principle which bed bees advocated by the Right Hon.
Member, the Secretary for the Home Department; be did not
think% would be right to meet the modes by a direct negative; be
should therefore move as as meendnient, that the writ do sot Jesse
foe three 'mike; be did this fee the purpose et giving time to have
the Motion of the Member tee Harmed disposed ot.
Lord NORMA NBY said. if it came to a vote between& new
writ and the extend's to &widely, he should vete for the former.
because he did out wish to remotae the principle of extending the
franchise to the adjoining hundreds, but he hoped the Hon. Mover
would not persist in his mottos.
hir. STURGES BOURNE thought the middle coarse the
mho, and wished to see the franchise extended to Bassetlaw. j
kir. Secretary PEEL hoped the Hai. Member would cossets%
to withdraw his motion, which would leave him the apnea of re-
newing it when be liked; but U be persisted is it, ha (Ids. Peel)
would oppose it.
Mr. LANE the. withdrew kis maims.
POO5 LAWS IN IKILASD.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART said he could astute the
House that in bringing this imp brunt subject before the
House he was mum' more anxious to elicit the opinions
of others than to offer his own; and he chiefly con-
sidered the motion as the means of procuring for tie
subject the attention its great importance deman.ed.
The state of the poor, both in this country and Leland.
demanded the most serious consideration of the House.
II Ireland were not governed by the same law asEng land.
both countries must be the sufferers. England abounded
with manufacture-, commerce. and capital. Ireland,
with a soil and climate equally genial, had no maim-
factures, commeece, or capital. Did this distinction
always exist? History answered No. Before the
Reformation England was in the state of Ireland at
the present day. Even in the large towns many of
the houses bad no chimneys, and in the country the
people and the cattle lay on the same stsaw.—From
the reign of Henry the Eighth to Elizabeth the
crying evil of England was pauperism—till at length
laws of the must sanguinary description were enacted
to check it...altd even death itself was resorted to; till
being found ineffectual, it was considered whether relief
might not be mote effectual than punishment—and by
the 4.141 of Elisabeth the poi r man received his charter
of exemption from starvation—and in proportion as the
people found they were regarded by their country they
regarded themselves ; and landlords, from motives of po-
licy, prevented their tenants becoming paupers. Industcy
was encouraged, manufactures flourished, , and England
assumed her proud station among the patio's, of the
world. There was every probability that bad a change of
system at the same time taken place in Ireland, the same
good effects would have followed, for it was a fact that
all the superiority enjoyed by the English peasantry had
rows up under a system of compulsory provision for
the poor. The poor in Ireland must be supported either
by charity or by pillage and plunder. It was said the
poor bad no inherent right to a provision from the rich,
but be thought it would be a moral as well as a poli.
deal solicisin to allow them to perish for want of food;
and be thought be could show that it was the interest
of the rich that the poor should be preserved. The ot.
jection now made to the English poor laws was—that
whatever they had effected for the poor would
have been effected without them, by the natural desire
of every man In provide for his own wants. He thought
the state of the poor of Ireland disproved the fact, end
that poor laws tended to make the poor independent,
by raising the price of labour, and preventing the la-
bourers from falling into that state of abject poverty, in
which all the feelings of the mind were absorbed, is ob-
taining food lot the preservation of life; which was the •
case with the people of Ireland at present. He might bs
asked, where was the capital to support such k pauper
population ? He would ask in return, why was not carpi..
tai created in Ireland ? The answer was, that the rental.
of Ireland was drawn out of the country to give e*
iployasent to the labour of other countries. In no other
country would it be tolerated that the landlord
should absorb all the labour of the country without
giving any thing in meta The landlord might now
be as absentee, and return nothing to the country. The
poor laws would make hie' a resident. and the produce
at the soil would circulate through the community. In
Ireland labour was so abundant that it could prccure no
more than potatoes for the labourer. And as potatoes
did not keep beyond a year, the failure of a clop wait
cert.in cause of famine and fever ; as even, though the .
granaries might be filled with corn, the labourer wig)*

i

perish for want of food. He hoped the Act of Union
would never be repealed ; but he felt that it had caused
■ decrease of manufactures in Ireland, and increased its

pauperism. If manufacturers are out of emplokmeso
in Ireland they have no support, and ate obliged to cod-
grate—and when a demand comes, the master manufirt.
curer a .snot pet hands to carry on his trade. Who, then,
would he so foolhardy as to establish manufactures in
? He thought it was evident that the rainditiOn
of celand roust be raked. to that of England, or the
c.-odition of. England .mosi, sink to that of Ireland. He
thplght_ Leland, could only. be raised by a system- of
poarlsws, Which ha.l been found- so beneficial. in this
'country. At present five pence a day was considered
the 'average rite of wages in Ireland. of which the la-
bourer had but one-third more than the mere support of
. ' his existence. It.he earned 15J. a day, then would there
be a home mar ket.for the produce of the soil and for
40snlifactures, and a taxable revenue would- be pros
• ducedeo(Hear). • The great objection made to the poor
*laws of Euglani-was founded on their abuse. Poor
'laws in Ireland were as necessary for the people of
England as.tor those of Ireland, as they would prevent
that ruinous competition for labour that now takes place
. in this country. Poor laws would also check the surplus
population, as men would become more prudent when
• they did
,not depend on chance for support. He was
confident they would increase the value of property ten-
fold*, Ireland, and that Irish landlords would bail the
day when they exchanged the pauper for a pony law
-• System. The Honourable Gentleman moved that the
, House would, early next Session, take into considera-
,tion the establishment of a system of poor laws in Le-
land, applicable to the exigencies of that countiy.
. The queation having been seconded, and put front the Chair,
Lord F. L. GOWER said be felt at all times con.
siderable Inziety on addressing the House, and that if
his intention on that occasion had been to enter into
arguments hostile to those of the Hon. Member who hiid
proposed the resolution under consideration, that ant ety
would have been greatly increased from the ability with
.which toe Hon. Member had treated the subject. He
however was not to much inclined to deny or to
dispute with the positions, of the -Honourable Mem-
ber, as be was desirous of explaining the reason which
, would induce him on the part of the Gostritment
to meet the Ittsolution, by movies. •as ,an • amend-
ment on it, the previous question. In making such
a motion he had not the slightest- intention to pass.
. over,the subject, or e arguments of' the Honourable
bl,mber, with disrespect. Bub were. unque.tionably'
• worthy of, and demanded consideratiow •He looked,
however, with great .apprehension at any proceedings
whichwould lead that House to the verge of legisla-
tion upon so int' ica:e and important a subject. when,.
after all. difficulties might occur which could he con-
' q'uered only by time, further inquiry. and great la-
bour. It the poor in Leland were led to expect the
immediate intniductinn of a system of poor laws which
• welt to be a panacea for their distresses, he should al.
most dread; the revulsion which might be occasioned by
disappointment. The principle upon which, however,
be founded his objection to the motion was his. unwilr
• liogivos to see that House pledge Wass to any specific
entsise„ esprcially.to a system in which the details were
.of very complex arid most important character. ,He
admitted Oat in some instances the plan pursued by the
• Hon. Member in proposing his resolution had been
aeree4 to by ike House, but he contended that the
Morose had only pledged itself to a particluar course, in
the ris.ntier now proposed under peculiar circumstances.
Io 1812, a Statesman, who, to the lass of the country,
was nose no more (Nlr. Canning) proposed a resolution
with reference to that great question which had re-
cently so happily been settled, and that resolution was
adopted by the House; but looking tothe consequences
of that proceeding, he confessed he wits not at , all in
clined to adopt it as a precedent. He therefore, on the
part of Goretnnient, wished to avoid pledging himself
in any way as to what it might be necessary, to do re-
'petting the introduction of the poor laws into Ireland.
He was aware that be might be told that there -was
• ample esi.letice before the House. as to the state of
Leland, and upon which evidence Ire might safely
make up • his mind as to what. ought to be done is
principle. But he must remark, that in the reports
befote that House respecting Ireland, able and volu-
minous as they were, he could find but' very little
which bore directly upon the subject. (Heari. Much
by implication might be made to throw a light upon
it, but while he admitted that, he could not help also
remarking, that the subject was one to the principle
of which it woold be dangerous for the House to pledge
itself, until it saw its way also in the details. As a proof
of his accuracy in stating that the information before
the House entered but very little at all into the details
of the question, he would just allude to the evidence of.
Mr. de to Coin, who was one of the most zealous irdwo....
cites for the introduction of the poor laws into Ireland.
Mr. de la Coin, when asked what details he. would re.
commend. declared that he was incapable of giving
any opinion upon that point of the question. He there,
fore rigs:ire/I further information; and for the reasons‘
he had stated, could int consent to the adoption of the
resolution inagilied by the Honourable Member. • The,
Noble Lord concludeohy moving the previous question,,
Mr. WILMOT HORTON alluded to the way in
which a laieChief Secretary of Ireland (LotdMelb urn')•
had received a specific' recommendation from the Com.
mince upon Emigration. • What bad transpired, how.
ever, since that recon,mendation had convinced him
(Me. Melia Milos!) of its propriety, and be implored
the Government to take-rata its consideration E.e cave
of those-persons who were ejected in consequence of the
Fatty-shilling Fieeliolders' Disfranchisement Bill. He
contended that the. present distinction between the Irish
labour. er
.and the English, could pot permanently exist
The real considetatioo was, when and how they should
introduce that " system of poor laws, which • would
bring about that parity which alone could give security
anti prosperity to both countries. The introduc.ion of
a moderated system of poor laws into Ireland was essen-
tial to the welfare of both islands; but he contended
that the first evil to be provided for was the redomiancy-
of the population, He denied that the mere intruduc
Lion of a system of the poor laws, however good, would
raiie the rate of wages in Ireland. The redundancy of
Population was an evil which would . not correct itself
He himself had given notice of emotion upoo the silt-jest
for'hat eveniug, and.the few remarks which lie wished
to malt.. lespecting. it eight as bo • introduced
thee as at oho other period tbaspighs. One of his
.e4sit4 beasotik for ad miringAhe great measure which-had
meanly been sallied was_e firm convictipo that it would
de* the way for the ',the; tow pleurae: necessary to
give full prosperity_to ire empire, and which might
now be ilispassinnatirle.discosscd. Sires ass the stated!
the country that,there %res.'s, place•Offelloiliee for such
labourers as,rivere dimwit out of employment. He com-
plained strongly Orthe way in which an Hon. Gent. who
bad shies becoate a Member of that House (Mr. Sadler).
had spoken of the Report of the Committee oa Easiest.
tion:iind of the Mauer igwhich that floe, Ns= billed
untweptitiowed the soli* of those who mods thiegoio!t.
903 •

Ha was glad to see that Hon. Gentleman in a place in
that House, where he might boldly and fairly assert,
and if he could, prove those statements which 'be had
made elsewhere. That Hon. Member was Most un-
doubtedly-net Duly conspetent to' ive his opinion, but.
alto to.move an ioquiryinto the whole questidn ; *Ad
NAN' Mysterious system possessed the merits the Ilea:
Amber asetibed to it, he would do the country.* vast
ideal of service by unfolding it. But when that Hon.
`Member prodiimed to the country that the Emigration
Committee were actuated by selfish motives; that
the emigrants were consigned to death, or to tedious
,rniteryi-nod-horrors of every deicription; that those
who fainted {he' Report were presumptuous, arro-
gant, cruel, heartless beings; that they effected the
act 'in a moment of superior power; and that
they did.so from an indulgence of speculative spurious
philosophy, it was the duty of the Honourable Mem-
ber to declare the grounds upon' which he made
such serious charges, and threw obloquy upon a pro.
position which came from men 'to the full as honourable
and as well iatentioned as himself. He wished to touch
as lightly as possible upon the subject, inn when the
Hon. Member. was in his place...-when they had him
there—he could not refrain from calling upon him to
suppett his assertions. He quarrelled not with the in-
vective of the Hon. Member—he quarrelled not with his
opinions, provided he would, as a man of honour, give
his reasons for making such charges against others.—
The Hononurable Member had stated that the emi-
graws had been bribed and solicited out of their native
land—tbeit they had experienced sufferings fat, very fir,
beyond what they could have known in their native
country—and that in a• vast plurality of cases their
misery and torments had been ended only by death. If
such statements were to be left before the country un-
contradicted, it would be idle to suppose thatvoluntary
emigration would go on—l Hear). But what •was the
recommendation of the Committee which had brig
thus severely charged by the Honourable Member?
Why it bad in its Report recommended not only nht
to force persons to emigrate, but that Government
should take no part in the 'emigration of any who
were not zealous for the undertaking—(Hear, hear).
But upon the state of the emigrants there was ample.
evidence before the House. There were the Reports of
Colonel Cockburn and of another Gentleman, who had,
been dispatched by Government especially to inquire
into the state of the settlers, and they both spoke of their
condition as highly prosperous. It might be said that
those Reports were partial, in consequence of the con-
nexion of the ',sitars with Government; but he could
net at all agree with any such assertion, for he had often
taken occasion to observe that the labours of the Emi-
gration Committee had not received that degree of
attention at the bands of Government to which they
were, in his opinion, entitled. Should those repot;:, how-
ever, be charged as detective, he would first mention that
two years ago be received a letter from Captain Basil
ho was travelling among the new settlers,and Paid
particular attention to their condition and their pros.
pects. That gentleman 'described them as extremely
well off, and remarkably happy and contented. In con-
sequence of the letter alluded to, he (Mr. H.) wrote to
Captain Hall, and requested answers to some particular
questions, with a view of learning as accurately as pos.
siole the condition of the new settlers, what they had
endured, and what were their prospects The firstquel-
dun was, 64 Have you known a singleinstance in *hid)
any emigrant sent out by Government, terminated his
ezirtence in misery ?" The reply s• as, that. after
the most diligent inquiry, be had not been able to dis-
cover any one single instance of such I description. It
should, however, be remarked, that the reply of Capt.
Hall was applicable only to those, emigrants viho had
been sent out by Government and regularly Allocated.
The next question was, " Were not the settlers ybo hate
seen, in a remarkable state of prosperity ?" The reply
was in the efirmatiee,.and also spoke very highly of
their prospects. The third question wits' to the effect,
" Do you not agree •with- the Committee in thinking
that a regulated emigration on the plan proposed by
them is beneficial to the emigrants, and that an unset-
tled, unregulated emigration is' injurious to the parties
immediately concerned ?" Again the answer was in
the affirmative. i-In 'putting that question, his object
bad been to prove the difference in the consequence
of . the plan proposed by the 'Emigration Commit-
tee, and the precarious mode of emigration which had
been too much acted' upon. The Honourable Member
(Mr. Sailer) had.• advocated the teclamation of the
waste land and bogs of Ireland; and most-assuredly if
the Hon. Member was able to show that such a change
could, be effected et a cheap rate, he would confer a
great benefit.on the country. He was bound to itittik
.too, that it had•been provetbefote the Committee that
some of the waste lands might be cultivated ; and hewn
decidedly of opinion that Government would du well ti
snake an experimert to learn the es pens. and the succesa
likely to attend the undertaking on a considerable scale.
But if those lands were cultivated end proved rich, the
natural consequence would ire to reduce the value of the
poor lands now in cultivation, and the produce of the new
lands would act.as for eitn corn imported into the mar.
ket. One of .the Honourable Member's (Mr. Sadler's)
suppositions was, that the framers of the Emigration
keport argued that' ['eland was not capable of pro.
ducing sufficient food for its population ; but the Emi-
gration Committee said no such thing. They knew the
contras, to be the fact. It was, however, one thing to
produce food sufficient and another for the poor to have
money sufficient to purchase it. The grower of course
;amok his article to the best' marker. With .respect• to
the resolution ref re the House, he mast 'say hews,'
convinced that the p. or laws introduced into Ireland
at the present moment would act as an Aviation Law.
The landowner %scold very soon find it impossible to get
any rents at all. Cr' tainly, ',commended h? the rettior
ray the t,soluti,in was, it was an 'enticing one to the
British landowner if he thought only of his own inte-
rest, fir if Adopted and Jived upon without any previous
.provision for the superabundant population, • its count-
.quence must be an entire absence of Irish grain from the
Englielymarket. Such a step would rather increase than
lessen pauperism. If the wages of labour could be
equalised here and in Ireland, then he would admit theta'
s; rum of poor laws might be deairable there. He begged
pardon fir having be long trespassed Witt the attention of
Vie House, hot it was a subject to which he had devoted
:Tony years, and in which he felt deeply interested.
&s.a.e. said the true way t s relieve the country was to
lap off the. Assessed Taxes, others to do away with the
,ffinecutes, brit re knew not where they were to be found;
and others to repeal the COI n Leas. All these he thought
indffectual. ( Here the lion. Member read some ex-
attracts from toe evidence of Mr. Mahhus before the
Emigration Committee.) Whatever remedies might be
sitoirable would be inol.erative as long as the demand
kw labour was not equal to the supply. •• He was con-
&Writ that, in the peseta circun.stalices of the country,
the-only remedy was a removal or pot of the. super-
fluous population, either by emigration, or by securing
sot them employment from souse other transom He
should be mog happy. to hear that Government had
MOM sucb plan to contemplation.
. .

Mr. SADLER said he should not occupy the time
of the House very long. and he should not now have
risen were it not for the pointed alrusions whieh had
been made to him by the Right Honourable Gentle Tan.
though he did not know' that the Right Hannur4Sle
Gentleman (Mr. Wilmot:Horton) was perfectly in III;,
Air; in alluding in that House'to t.puhlication'which
appeared before he had tie honour of 't Ciiit in it. He'
must disavow all intention of any thine like personality
in any thing which he might say upon this occasion
and indeed in the work alluded In he had avoide.l stn
diously any thing of the kind. It was true he objected in
tbe principle of the Emigration Committee, and stigma.
tried it perhaps in no measured terms, but in so doing he
used only the same liberty. an example of which was
frequently set in that House, o here parsons enter t.ining,
certain opinions were stigmakised a. Vols or rogues. IV
Meant, however, nothiog personal. For the characters
of the Right Kin. Gentleman (Mr. Wilmot Horton) he
entertained the highest respect, and any errors he might
have fallen into he attributed entir,ly to the erroneous
niticini he hicrtaken up of some of the principles of
prArticel economy. Tire ;Right Hon. Gentleman ob.
served. that he had devoted much iinie and attention
to this particular subject of emigration; and he. too
(Mr. S.) wis.not inattentive to it, but the conclusions to
Which he and / the Right Honourah!e Gentleman
came were very different. He 'Maintained that emi-
gration was not a necessary rev' u ce in any country
'Which employed
tall the means within its reach
'He maintained that it was a law of Nature—a 11w
established by a benevolent Pitovinence. that Ise
means -of suppoA in every country were alwass
proportioned to the increase of population. So far'
from wishing to throw out any injurious reflections
upon the Emigration Committee, he paid them a
compliment, which he belesed had not been paid by
one in a trundled thousand, for be read the whole of
their Report, :though it swelled to the seize of a
'family Bible. and he read it not lightly or cursorily,
but phihrsophicsily, and with the greatest attention.
The bndk to which tke Right Honourable Gentleman
"alluded was written by him (Mr. Sadler) in great ?brae,
and he greatly regretted it he had been bete asesl into
any thing lite harsh language. For the individual
Member's of the Committee, and for their Chairman, he
entertained tire greatest respect; but as an Englishman
he had a right to speak his sentiments, and to decl tie
freely and openly what he thought of the course which
they suggested as a vemedy for the distreses of the
iouritry; It appeared to him that the Report was
founded on a wrong view of the subject ; and when hr
entered into the discussion of it in the pamphlet to
enrich the Right lion. Gentleman bad done him the
iherfinur of referring, he thought he was perfectly jests.,
.114041 in alluding to the absentees of Ireland. It was its
speaking of them he used many of those terms of re.
probation which the Right Hen. Gentleman suppo.ed
to have been directed against other persons. lie bad
'sufficient evidence to support the statements he had
made in both impressions of the book. and he Would
now, with the permission of the House, bring some part
of it before them. lie must premise, at the same time,
that be charged no person with intentional cruelty. All
he contended for was, that those who favoured plans of
emigration were mistaken in their views. He would
now come to some facts. An emigration took place
from the south of Ireland in the year 1825. under the
direction and management of Mr. Robinson. There were
about 2000 selected from a population of 50.000; an 4
BO doubt those so selected were persons who, Irons t '
appearance, promised health and longevity. The sea
hel
and-attention of Mr. Robinson were eulogized by that
Ceinttrittee, and the emigrants were mentioned-in theft
report as being in a prosperous and Uniting cnnditioti.
Now, what was the real state of the case ? There wet.'
located 1,845 individuals. consisting of 454 families,
and in this 'number, between the year 1825 and Novel's.
bee, 1826, there were 131 deaths. There were 53 heeds
of families ill of agues, eight of whom continued ill the
whole summer, and many of them never enjoyed goes
health since their arrival—(The Honourable Gentleman
read a statement of the number of deaths ois each loci-
tion, making in all one hundred and thirty-one).-1e
Wales, the proportion of deaths was as one in 49; in
England, as one in 57; but here was a mortality of one
in 14. Could any other community in the world, rent
Constantinople itself, be mentioned, in which the nuns;
her of deaths was so great, compared to the population?
The mentality in Dublin, even while the fever raged
there. was nOt equal to this. Now these facts he did
'not mention in his book; and were not the Committee
indebted to him for suppressing it?
. Mr. W.* HORTON -.They are stated In the Report itself.

Mr. SADLER resumed—Then what became of the
extreme's:ate of ptosperity so much vaunted? He did
not mean to cut any reflection upon the :night 'flux
Hentleman" (Mr. Wilmot-Holton), whose name, be
knev', was identified with benevolence and of whose
good and kind intentions no person could for a moment
ddubt.. He trusted that ultimately the feelings of true
benevolence • would triumph over all such vi.i4leary
speculation.. The proper field for the employment of
English I..b.cr was within the limit, (their own shrrieF,
acid not in foreign settlements. He denied that there
was a reiundirocy of population. This urea ati old cam
plaint. They would find it to have been made at many
former period, as well irs now, hut it was one which,
rested on no solid foundation: Such a complaint WA>
a proof of barbarous times—of times when all the gran
resource's of indostry,-ied the' meilis of employios f
'population, were comparatively. onkfinwn. 'Tile .savage
could not live unless he had many *One magi to ein.
'lnitiate in, and even then he was in misery; bofthe'hik-
toey of civilized man proved that he was happiesi 'when
bt•'lras most-thickly surrounded with 'hislellow.men.
Every country in Europe had within 'veil sufficient re-
rsoui cu for the support and employment of any increased
'population, by directing their labour upeuitlie Many mil-
lions Of eel esCatro lying waste, and out of `cultivation.-_
Beilides,as Lotd Bacon had oliserved.there wet e the wastes
oldie ocean, producing an inexhaustible abundance-of
That great man said that it was uitphilosophical
for complain of the multitude of the people. It was a
complaint made in his time as well as now, but he re-
jected the idea. The Member for Abingdon asked him
what remedy he (Mrs Sadler) proposed, and promised
'to.support it if it was such as he thought calculated to
remedy the evil. 'He would soon put the Honourable
Member to the test, by submitting some proposition to
the Hod* either this Session or the next. Perhaps at
so late period of the prevent Session he could not hope
to do it. Upon a subject like this, with which he was
terf.ctly familiar, he felt some difficulty in restraining
himself within due limits; and he should have gone at
much smiter length into it were be not afraid of
fatiguing the House. .
MI: W. HORTON said the emigrants in 1825 were
landed in the unhealthy season, which was in a great
measure the cause of so many deaths. This, and other
unfavourable circumstances, might be avoided in Suture.
Le the Hon. Gentleman compete the Mortality of 1825
to that among the emigrants of 1823.
Mr. SADLER said he had founded no inferenee on
the ernigi Aden of 1823. That of 1825, in which there

S

west 151 deaths, was represented as being in a happy
and prosperous condition.
Mr. S. RICE said he entreated the House to comities
the teal cpestion. This discussion was t immediately
connected with tie motion; it was calculated to do win
,11.ei. it left as it now •to•rd. if the pe pie of tte.apj
were induced to turn their minds to a system of ii,wt
laws, it would do mote injury and produce moseistit.
tion thisn'ailithing he could conceive. lie did not ,i,e4
as an bosh proprietor. Let the class of proprimcks ter,
crificed if the general go id could result, but he rest,te4
the motion on principle, on experience, from I costsict"
that in this contury the system did not work well. if
there was increasing prosperity in England since tiw
time of Queen Elizabeth, it was not in
..ceottieseittiebnche.irt,i
in spire of the P. or Laws. vine from causes
come
independent of such a system. Tt e poor were not I,ft
in Iteland to live upon casual Ora, ity. The la, gue
them relict to a certain limit. Estended provistoa
made at various times to provide for educatioms.t,
~,rovicle for ft widlings and deserted childien. Theft,
of Henry VIII provided lot the establishment of pi,
rish sch ols there, and an Act of Et z•b th tor cutter
schoolt. In 1771. hail es of in lust, y
in every comas., and supported by local ao.easmeiL h
every roomy there was one or more county !Inveigh,
and even in every f arish. Fever hospitals we.e sty,
established in ail pima. Ti e e were. in fact, establish,
merits for the old. the young, t! e on& m, and betwa„.
tic. He denied that the poor 14,as toull raise she tee
of wages in Leland. He was sure n••••E glislitientlerase.
particularly as they rae-e the majority of trat.11,,,,„,,
would. say that a sys;ens of this kind should M intro,
Jwced, not as a relief in lielatid, but as a priihecti,,a t,
is Ma% curious th t the c•iniplaint 1104. mad,
[of thiinflux of !rash laboureis untisEnglacd was node
by Dr. Swift of tne scats •of Engli•to labourers lets
i Ireland. (Here the I lois. Men.ber read the passages
which it was stated that the Gentlemen of the West of
England, to get rid of their soot litmus laboureis wait
them over to lreand duty tree) He should like to ,ee
the system first corrected in England, and then there
might be some good redact') tot iiitmduciog i. bombe,
land. They had been endeavouring, without
ever since the time of Qceeis Elizabeth, to wordy tie
system here, and It was now proposed to trsnifer it tu
Iceland without inquiry. He should not oppose die
appointment of a Commit e. ; hot they sh uld not, At
the present period of the Session, hold out an especti•
lion ti such a change in I eland. Inquiry might se
productive of good effect, and tend to remove limn the
occupying tenant kon the la; dli rJ some • I the be •
thens s.hich pressed heavily upon the forum. Emir,.
tion might be another rt medy. It mielit be carried as
"without any expense to this country, by the voluntatt
cotiti ihutions of Irish proprietors. Public is or ks, calhsy
into life bear sour. es of production, wculd be soother
means of relief.

Mr. D.i WSON defended the Irish landlords (mm the aspes
lions thrown out against them, and contended that the effect of
introducing the poor laws into Ireland w- ilia lie to redact the
value of land to nothing, and to encourage idkness, Without doing
the smallest benefit to the poor.

Sir F. BURDETT contended that the Irish Landholders eight
to be subjekted to poor laws as web as the lCogll.h Landholders;
tie estates of the one being as extensive and as profitable as 'briefer.
Mr. H. G RATTAN spoke in favour of the Introguetioa of
poor Yates, and argued at some length against the proposition
the Pon. Member who was Chairman of the Emigration Com-
bine* In Dublin pauperism bad arisen to •uch a height that no
inhabitants in self defence tatted themselves to prevent
and with the best effect, and this was a practical proof of the 014
'of pubr laws. If the potatoe crop should be deficient thi. year be
feared there would be great distress, and he thoughr it wise of Gin
MODlrlit, in ease of great distress, to make advances fur its select
to he repaid by the district to which it was granted; and such a
measure. would make the canary Gentlemen attend to their inn
retry and prevent disuses
Mr. BROW NLOAV said, he was a friend to the meaner. It
was to Valet to conceal that the effect of the Obstranchisettient hit
oribld be to turn thousands el poor forty shilling voters out of dwir
tolifojents tie the wide world. The modes maw brought f.stiv.ti
%Nos operate to increase that effect. The landlords of !retain,
utast providetst than merciful, would, from this night's debate, tate
warning and sever the poor knouts from the soil, that they might
at become a berthas on ; but this was no argument against the
ammant, but proved that, from the enters unite state of the tenantry
of the country, it was necessary that the Legislature should ister.
fere for the protection of the poor of Ireland.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said he did nut mean to espress say de.
eldisd Opinion on the subject; bet would vote for the previous goes.
don. becsaloe he thought the House should out give arty pledge, and
hetireen This and the oast Session be would give the subject hit
best consideration.
btr. HUSK ISSON thought the question most important; hit
that ft could miry be beneficially introduced by Government.
After a few words from General Gascot we, Lord Malmo lb.
Taiimosil Lord Poisszassom, Mr. Vst.t.mas STIIAAT wideiror
Ids minhatt.

SILK ?KAM BILL.
Mr. VR.SEY FITZGERALD moved the Order of the Day
for the Third Reading of the Silk Trade IliU, and mid it was
necessary to' the public tranquillity that the lid! shield net he.
delayed.
Mr. Fetes, Mr. Alderman Waterston. Mr. Deuteron, .1,01
Mr. IC. Davin:roar opposed the nation. •
Mr. ROBINSON said. as opposition to the Bill was useless, he
should not'oppoie the third reading.
Mr. 11. 1 HOMPSON supported thi
Mr. PEEL pressed that the Bill might till allowed to be read s
third dine, as he *as confident it would tend to tranquillises/0'
parties interested.
The opponents of the Bill refused to convent.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, it certainifwas in theism st
any Oentketan to _prevent it in the then state of the Buil%
there Were nut forty Members present. be therefore wool dot
the Bill be read a-third time this day (Friday)....Agreedna. e:•
The other Wets of the Day were disposed of, miIIIMANNI
odjoureoiditt a QuAstaa ran Two o'CLacc.

-THE EVpiING STAR.

LUALKIN4 ••••••••••

FRIDAY. MAY 8. 1829
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