Star.
London, England, 1820-05-06 00:00:00

CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.

Mr. GOULIAJRN laid upon the table Papers, containing
21 account of all Civil Offices at the Cape of Good Ikpe, the
habries of v::ich exceeded the sum of 1:1:50 per annum : also
a copy of the Dispatch transmitted from Lord Bathurst to the
Governor of :he Colony, Lord Chas.Somerset,dated Ist March.
L:,..41 NILTON inquired, whither that copy contained also
a copy of the appointment of Mr. Ellis?
'lr. GOULBURN replied in the affirmative; and, in an-
swer to a question from Lord Mihon, obszrved, that the only
zzthority for such appointments to Civil Offices, was the King's
pleasure, signified to the Colonial Governor throo&h the Sees
Lary of State: upon receipt of that letter, the appointment was
I.cnerally made out; and upon this principle he (Mr. Goulburn)
Lad forwarded such a letter to Lord Somerset.
Lord MILTON replied, he was not aware of that.
WOOL TRADE.

On t►e motion of Lord MILTON, a Return of the number
of Pieces of Cloth milled in the West Riding of Yorkshire, from
the year 1790 up to the present time, distinguishing the num-
ber in each year, was ordered co be laid before the House.
Lord MILTON reudoded the Chancellor of the Exchequer
of certain inquiries that were set on foot before the Uoard of
";ratie and the Privy Council, and wished to ask it arty Report
Ltd been drawn up on the subject by either of these bodies?
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUIPAI was not pre-
pared to give an answer to the question. lle was net aware
:tut a Report from either of the bodies which had been men-
:.eued was about to be laid before the House.
MISC ELL A N I Ex.

'Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
CZCER, the !louse agreed, at its risinz, to adjourn until Mon.
4.1 y r. x!.
Lord -MANNERS moved, that there be laid before the
House, a Return of the total quantity of Coals and Culm
r7ted into the Principality of Wales during the years 1817,
ISI3, and 1819, distinguishing the quantities of -each )ear, and
Ihe amount of Duty paid upon the same.—Ordered.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee upon the
Insolv..nt De'otors' Continuance Dill, Mr. T. COCKTENAY in the
u;uir. The Clauses of the Be. were read ; the House resumed,
the Report was ordered to be reccrved on Monday.
Mr. W. S ITIL moved for an Account of all Extents in
Aid, issued from tie Remembrancers' Office in the Exchequer.
Ir(In the let of January to the 31st of December, 1819, ludo-
sive.—Crilesed.
LUSHINGTON moved far an Account of all Duties
(hired, but not paid into the Exchequer. Iron tLe jth of April,
cilu, to the sth of April, 1326.—Ordered.
DIIGITS OF THE CROWN AND ADMIRALTY.
Mr. lIROUGHAM raid, that in rising to bring
before the House the very important subject, of which
lie had given notice, as well as of the Civil List, which
was couneetvel with it, he assured them it was far

. .
from his intention ,:o trespass more upon.their time inquiry, he would not.proceed so far as to deny that
than was absolutely necessary towards explaining the . a compensation ought not to be made for what might
different points to which he should advert. He be taken away ; but he would maintain, that on every
trusted the House would believe him, when he de. principle of law the right to them did not exist. In
dared, that in bringing forward this gilt-lion; it was ancient times, it was well known, that out of the
not a business of his own seeking. When the same lands of the Crown the Sovereigns were obliged to
question was under consideration in the year 1812, maintain their splendour; but in those days of valid)
he then told his Ma;esty's Ministers that he should, he spoke, when certain defined revenues were granted
at some finale pesiod, call the attention of the to the Crown, they were not given for the personal
House to it, in case they online:l to satisfy the Pub. pleasures of the King. No, they were placed under
lic on the subject in the arrangements they were his direction, fir the special purpose of providing
making. At that time he expressed an anxious wish for the eropense, of his Government. To support this
that the Ministers themselves might bring forward assertion, he would cite one or two authorities—if,
some proposition which would have a better chance indeed, the authority of any one were necessary to
of being beaeficial to the Public than anything that produce belief to a proposition so obvious. Lord
could have come from him. Ile also declared, that Cok.e said, that wrecks must rest in the Crown, be-
it svas equally foreign from his intention to suggest cause somebody must have the right of claiming
anychiog to the House from which it might be sup-. them, and as r.o owner could be found, it followed,
posed that his object' was to compass the degrada- ex necessitate rei, that they belonged to the King.
tion of the Royal state and dignity, or to curtail any That great lawyer, however, went on to remark, that
of those rights which properly belonged to the there were authorities against this doctrine, although
Crown ; for the interest of the Nation required that he himself entertained no doubt upon the subject,
the Monarch should be 'maintained in his just dig. because he knew that, in compensation for the bent-
nity and splendour. It informer times it was crimi. fits which the King derived from accidents on the
nal to deprive the Crown of what was essential to its sea, he was bound to keep the narrow seas clear from
security, to its power, and to the peace, the tranquil- pirates, This was the reason which had been urged
lily, and good government of the realm, it would for vesting the ownership in the Crown, and so the
be equally criminal to make such an attempt in times .Judges• declared with respect to other droits also.
like these ; for the present were not times to tamper Of the Judges, however, Lord Coke mentioned, that'
with the security of our constitutional establishments. Mr. Justice Crawley had. some doubts upon the point,
lie always considered it to be safe and expedient not for, after admitting the doctrine, he said that the
to degrade the Crown ; but to conform to the prin- Royal fish were not droits of the Crown, because
ciples, and steer within the strict grounds of the Con- they were too small to belong to the King as Custos
stitution. In what he had now to state to the House, of the Seas. The sturgeon and the whale, in his opi-
he should steer within those limits. There was no nion, were both too small for the use of the Sove-
occasion for him to enter into an exact account of all reign; but had the worthy Justice lived iirour time,
the points which were connected with this subject ; and witnessed the millions of revenue which arise
he should only proceed to shew allot some such ar- from the disposal of whales, his argument would
rangement as to that to which he alluded, Was called have totally failed. lie wished, however, not to be
for in the present situation of the country. It was misunderstood. He admitted, that, as the law at
an established maxim, and a maxim that had been present stood, a peat alteration had been made in
sanctioned by the greatest and most constitutional the arrangement of the revenue. lie need not say,
lawyers of this country, that the Crown was inca- that the Crown had now no looger to defend the seas
pable of possessing a separate property ; and that from piratical invasions, out of the revenues car-
no property which belonged to the Crown could be tied into its possession by virtue of the droits. No;
considered as the private property of any individual all those conditions upon which the droits were first
Sovereign. Originally the Kings of England were conferred upon the Sovereign were takeri away, step
supposed to possess all the lands of the kingdom, by step, from the Crown, awl each expense alienated
and to he held by the Monarch as jury Coroner. But from it. Yet it happened that one of these revenues,
it never was considered that any Monarch had a right granted especially for the defence of the country,
to appropriate those lands, to his own private uses.— and, as the Act of Henry VIII. had it, " for the tui-
Even when api ivate individual, seized of lands in his tion and good government of the country," was still
own private right, should afterwards become King, continued, although the service had not been per-
the right of those lands ceased with his power, formed. This, then, was the beginning, the middle,
and the lands became the lands of the CrOwn. Such and end of his argument. But he meant not too
was the case with the Duke of Lancaster, who was strictly and literally to follow this subject; it was
seized of lands in his own right ; but when he became often the height of injustice, particularly in cases
King, those lands belonged to the Crown, and were between the Crown and the People, to follow too
no longer the private property of the Monarch. If a severe a line of policy—(Heer). It was, lie observed,
statute gave lands- to the Crown, they could only one of those cases where the greatest injustice
he held by the Sovereign in right of the Crown.-- too often arose from the strictest adherence to jus-
This was a point so clearly laid down by the laws of tice. Prudence and discretion, and a regard for the
the country, that there could be no doubt upon it. security of the State, often required that where a ba-
He should state an instance in support of this princi- lance has been struck in remote times, it ought not
pie. When James 1. gave to the Earl of Devonshire to be disturbed, because learning and ingenuity might
certain old stores, which were considered to be the discover that it should not have been struck at all.
treasures of the Crown, it was held that he could not For this principle he would ever profess the utmost
convey away that property by his sign manual.— reverence. If arguments were necessary upon the
When the executors of the Earl of Devonshire claimed subject, he should say, that reasoning and analogy,
this property, the Judges, to whom it had been re- by which they should be governed upon this occa-
fel red, gave it as their opinion that these old stores sion, should be sought for in the dealings of the
were the treasures of the Crown—that they were the people with some other great corporation ; and if he
ligaments of peace, the sinews of war, and intended could shew that between this Public and the Church
for the protection of the realm ; and that they should Establishment sotne tangible analogy might be traced,
go to the successor of the King ; or, in other words, he trusted they would give it their maturest cousi-
that they were the property of the Crown ; and they deratioti. It was well known that tithes were not
held, that the only warrant by which that treasure originally the property of the Church for ecclesias-
could be possessed by a private individual, was a tical purposes only, for they were then burthened
warrant under the Great Seal and Privy Seal. This with provision for the poor, and each parson was
was the opinion of that profound laWyer, Lord Coke, bound to maintain the -poor. By degrees, it was
and all the other legal authorities agreed in the same found that the provision left at the disposal of the
opinion. Ile should mention another case. Lord ciergy was incompetent to the maintenance of the
Ashley had obtained, under the sign manual of the - poor, particularly after the violence of henry VIII.
King (Charles 11.) certain prizes which had been had deprived the clergy of their great resources. It
taken from the Dotch ; upon which Lord Clarendon was therefore not deemed proper that tire law of
remonstrated with the King*; he told him, that if tithes should be literally acted upon, and in process
such a transaction could be allowed to take place, his of time the claim which the Public had upon the
Msjesty might be abominably cozened by persons Church to. support the poor was abandoned. Here
who would seek for grants of that kind; and that then was the analogy. Originally tithes were bur-
there was no way by which they could be made, ex- thened with provision for the poor; so the droits of
cept by the Great Seal or Privy Seal. When Lord the Crown were charged with the expenses of keeps
Ashley remonstrated against this opinion of Lord ing the seas clear. Step by step, during the reigns
Clarendon, that great and constitutional Judge was of Mary, Elizabeth; James, &c.—for it was wrong
not more courteous to him than to his Sovereign, for to suppose that the measure was the effect of one
Act— a bargain was effected between the laity and
he told him that it was an unnatural privilege; and
that Lord Ashley might live to repent the day he had the clergy, that the former should support the poor.
taken the grant. These cases, with others which Let then the' analogy be continued ; let the revenue
might be quoted, clearly proved that no King of be discontinued, since the charge to defroy which
revenue waogranted had been taken up elsewhere,
England had any property which was not the pro-
perty of the Crown. A great inroad, however, had and let a composition be concluded. flow this corn-
been made upon this principle of our Law and position was to be paid—what was to regulate its
Constitution ; and, he was sorry to say, it was one amount—whether or not it should be more or less in
of a recent date. It was made by Mr. Pitt in the year time of war than in peace—were points upon which
1799, when, for the first time, an Act was passed, he did not intend then to trouble the House. He
which enabled the King to deal with his lands and wished only to have the general proposition counte-
r chattels, just as if they were his own private property. 'lanced by the House, that some arrangement was
All the principles of the Constitution were completely necessary. It was natural to believe that all who 11
upset by this enactment; and, after this, Gentlemen considered the subject of the Civil List, must at once
talked of the dignity of the Crown! What would see that nothing could be worse for the intelligibility
Lord Coke and Lord Clarendon have said to such a of the subject, for the dignity of the Crown itself,
1 law, which, by enabling the Sovereign to'Zfispose of ; and for the comfort of all whose business it is to en-'
his lands and goods, went to put him on the footing I tertain the matter, than the whole manner of the ar- 1
of any common individual!—a law by which he rangernent of the -Civil List, as it at present stood.
might, if he chose, give away the property of the Suppose any person, not acquainted with the minis-
Crown to favourites, or even to enemies, contrary to tie of finance, were asked how much money the
the policy and constitutional principles of the coun- King of England had? it would be a difficult thing
try! But what would they have said, if they heard for him to ftll ;it would be difficult for some of the
that a still further step had been taken towards les- most experienced Members of that House to tell it,
selling the dignity ot the Monarch? By the same even after a full half hour's computation. You can tell
enactment, pnwers were given to the King to possess the amount of the provision for the French King—
copyhold estates—nt hold these under his own sub- for the l'resident of the United States of America—
jests. Aftcr this, would Gentlemen talk of the dig- and a Dutch Stadtholder—you can at once declare
nity of the Crown ?—(!leer, shear). As to the para. for all, .except a King of England !—(llear, hear).
cular funds which should be the object of the present 1 And the consequence was, that the arrangement for

him was the subject of daily blunders; and. in its
Gothic obscurity and consequent mismanagement,
became injurious to the dignity of the Crown. When
Paine wrote his book, he complained that a King of
England was the most expensive Magistrate to be
found in Europe; " because (said he) the country
pays about ten or twelve hundred thousand pounds
a- year for governing the kingdom. I could find (said
he with his usual coarseness) an able-bodied man that
would do the business for £5OO a-year!"—(A laugh).
The serious part of the matter was this, that not ore
man in a million was able to contradict the gross
misrepresentation, or to expose the error of the writer.
And why not ? Suppose a person were to tell Paine,
or an advocate of his, that he Was greatly mistaken
in his sta:ennent, for that the King enjoyed no :tuft
sum as ten or twelve hundred thousand pounds a-) ear.
" How do you know ?" the advocate would ray ;
" because," says the other, the Civil List is not fur
his own use ; for out of it he has to pay his Great
Officers of State, Judges, Btc."----" Well, then, tell
us how much for each ?" It was impossible for the
antagonist to go any ferther; he could net tell, al-
most, unless he were a Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
and even then the thing was extremely doubtful; at
least he (Mr. Brougham) knew some Chancellors of
the Exchequer that would find it difficult to tell !
(A laugh).—But the misfortune was, that thiesame
mystery was kept up throngball the Civil List Acts,
up to the present time. The title to these Acts usually
contained the words, " for the better support of the
honour and dignity of the Crown." Now would any
man believe, that out of sums thus apparently placed
at the disposal of the Monarch, sums of money were
to be paid as salaries to the Great Officers of the
State, to Judges, &c. Even in the Resolution of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, row on the table,
occurred the same vague and inapplicable language.
The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), as a friend
to the dignity of the Crown, would boldly demand
was this fair play to the Monarch ? Was it fair to
the dignity of the Crown, to mix up with the provi-
sion fur the maintenance of the splendour of 'the -
Kingly office—the salaries of Judges—salaries fur
other officers, both great and small incidental
charges—occasional payments—Charges for arrears,
&c. and allowances which it would be beneath the
dignity of the subject to name? Was it fair to the
dignity of the Crown, that these accounts should.be
confounded with its own provision ; or was it more
becoming that these accounts should be separated ?
Did not every private man, anxious to have it in his
power to gain at any time a knowledge of the state-,
of his property, his profit and loss, labour to keep
his accounts separately for that purpose? But this
was not the advice of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer. "No ;" the Right Hon. Gentleman would say,
avoid this perspicuous arrangement—jumble all
the accounts together, but do not separate them on
any account !" The consequence would be, that the
person, whenever he wished to ascertain the-relations
of his accounts with each other, avoid be obliged
to employ some able accountant to unravel them.—
But then it was said that the dignity of the Crown
required all this confusion and mystery. Even sup-
pose so—a little regard for popularity, for intelligi-
bility, demanded that this Gothic diTuise should be
thrown aside. And, with respect to the dignity of
the Crown, did it t eally tend to that object to em-
lbarrass the sources of its provisions—did, really, this
confusion do more for the honour of the King, than
for his Parliament to say, " Your Majesty shall be
paid cheerfully, handsomely, and liberally, by a
grant from the Consolidated Fund, amply sufficient
for all the- purposes of your situation." But " No,"
said the Chancellor of the Exchequer, " this shall
not take place—the allowance of the Monarch tee
quires to be in a state of confusion—his dignity can
tolerate nothing short of mystery." But then, in
this prying age, people will turn their attention to
an investigation of these matters for themselves;
and by so doing will find out, unhappily, that the
Monarch of this country, to whose dignity and
honour the sacrifice of arrangement and perspicuity_
in his accounts had been deemed necessary, did not
disdain to have a part of his revenue made up by a
tax.of one penny in the gallon upon ale, and one
halfpenny in the gallon upon whiskey ! Yet the
Monarchs of former times did not perceive any de-
gradation in exchanging for a settled revenue de-
rived by these humble means, the gaudy and more
unsettled profits of theif predecessors—those gems
of feudal splendour, in which so much of their honour
was imagined to consist, and of which they must
have been so tenacious. Nor were out ancestors
able to distinguish any danger to the dignity and
respect of the Crown in this commutation—(Hear).
lle held in his hand the Report of the Committee
on the Civil List, the confusion of which was only _
to be outdone by that. of the Civil List itselE In
this he found, that the provision for some of the
branches of the Royal Family was charged partly
on the Civil List, and partly on the Consolidated
Fund. In fact, his Majesty bad recently been re-
commended to accept 100,0001. a-year from the Con-
solidated Fund, instead of the Civil List.—[lt was
here intimated that this
.recommendation was given
up.j—At all events, it was enough for him to know,
that the recommendation was made by a Committee,
who thought it not unwise to have it carried into
effect. •.The House, indeed, was not aware of the
company his Majesty was forced to keep. He was
obliged to associate himself with persons with whom
A common. German Baron would be ashamed to be
seen. In page 64. of the Appendix to the Report
in the 7th Class, the first item which met his eye
was the Vicar of the Tower, a great officer of State,
Ilsupported in his dignifies+ station at a salary of
1/. 13s. Bd. a-year! The office was not very expen-
sive, and, indeed, he ought to be recommended as a
most useful example of economy, This functionaey
of State--this Vicar of the Tower—this dignitary
of the Civil List, seventh class, for the classes lose
upon each,other in dignity—ootwitlastandins 41124
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