Star.
London, England, 1810-03-29 00:00:00

eaPtain YORK!, unaeotitterneel had bessi inefi tite louse was called tipOn
to addreir that-House, kill "did not think it would to decide on so impdrtant a question ? figd the
require lunch ability to.refute 'the arguments Of the Honi'CrentleMan opposite (Mr. Cioker) Oactited as
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat downs and wholong as he had in a Court of equity, he would have
had so freely criticised the conduct of every Member known before now the danger. unending rashness in
whom he had thought fit to advert...to. The Hon. proceedings, and would, no doubt, tln this °tea-
Gentleman, amongst other criticisms, had alluded to sion, have availed himself of the salutary lesson.—
a legacy which had been bequeathed to that House Sir Francis Burdett was charged as not guilty 4a•
by the late Member for Cambridgeshire. He could' breach of privilege oely, but of a gross and scanda-
assure that Hon. Gentleman, that whatever-legacy lous libel. Had the House power, admitting the •
was bequeathed -by the late Member for Cambridge- matter to be libelous, toConthrul individuals respec-
shire, would be remembered with respect by that ting the right of discuising constitutional questions
House. Certain he was, that it must be as
.good Possibly there Were passages which niight be libel-. 1
as any that proceeded from a brewer of bad porter. lous ; and yet, GOD fordid, that plain and serious
[Here a general cry of Order, order, Chair, Chair, argument should not be authorized on great and
continued for some minutes; several Members on the grave constitutional questions, Passages might be
-Otiposition benches at the same time standing up in offensive, when they were not, fairly speaking, 'libel-1
their places to speak to order.] lous. Seeing Gentlemen opposite tr; him better qua-
Mr. WHITBREAD—,4 I can deem Myself affec- lified than himself on points of this kind, he should
ted but one way by the expressions of the Hon Mem- be happy to receive some lessons from them (laughter.)
ber who has just spoken, and that is as a tradesman, Why was strong language. to be nice? No argument
by being held out as a brewer of bad porter."— was before the House ; and even the passage where
( Hear, hear, for a considera&le lime.)—" I have only to the Honourable Baronet wrote of their lording it
hope, as the Hon. Gentleman who has conceived so over King and people, was, if he must say truth,
bad an opinion of me as a tradesman, and thinks that and perhaps offend him, nonsense. When had. the
' I have So far deviated from the precepts and example House so acted ? Even the passage referring to the
of my father, that he would do me the honour to buy election of representatives, which it was not necessary
a cask of my porter, and I will sell him the best, 'that to recite, required an inuendo to explain it. Called
all the voters of the Teller of the Exchequer may to-vote the production to be libellous, it became the
drink his health"—(Hear, hear, Chair, chair Chair.), House to deliberate with seriousness; to recollect that*,
Mr. SPEAKER—" The Hon. Member is in pos- the accused was absent, contrary to all rules of juris-
session of the House; to proceed 'on the question, I prudedce, and that mature time was required in order
unless some Hon. Member speaks to order." to consider what was proper-to be determined. Con-
'Lord MILTON spoke to order, and expressed a sidering the recent sittings of House, was there
desire of taking down the words of the Hon. Member, time for t!le due investigation of the present corn-
" No, no, no," pretty generally from all quarters. plaint ? Reflecting on-all -the bearings of the roe..
Mr. WHITBREAD," I wish; as I am sure "I
Zion, he intist,- for one, deprecate a premature exhibi-
feel perfect good humour on this subject; and the tion of courage in this way; proceeding-without in-
Hon. Gentleman, as I perceive by his countenance, (piling, and determining without ascertaining.
is restored to tranquillity, the House would not-call • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'
for my apolo.gy ; I require none on this occasion"— agreed with his Hon. Friend under the gallery (Mr.
4.fieter,..hear, hear.) Owen) ; but was sorry to perceive that a Learned and
Mr. CROKER complimented the Hon. _Gentle- Hon. Member (Sir S. R.omilly) had started doubts on
Man on the manly manner in which he received the the question. ad the House acted in 'opposition to
sarcasm, which he thdright tobe unjustifiable ; though the 811 of Rights T Every one seemed agreed as to
mini of the observations which fell from himself on the importance of the present question. Some Gentle-
the subject cf debate, he-conceived to be as pointed men thought Walcheren more 'important than the.
ras the sarcasm which was just used. The depository inquiry of this night ; but he would ask, whether a
of the legislative power was arrested in the execution question affecting Ministers, or one implicating the
of its rights. The Hon. Baronet was well aware lie Commens—he would ask, which of the two was more
dared not utter one setitence on his legs here of what important ? Procrastin,ation of inquiry had been
he afterwards published as argument. The present prated to Ministers. Where waS' the object of it ? Ho.
discussion is, whether we shall in 1810 give op thelnourableGentlemen mii'.t t:lre the purposes r...f
right of exercising the privileges of our ancestors—. clamation, and in the absence of all arguinent; of mi.
(No, no, from the Opposition.). .1-11 v persisted in saying, nisterial management with the view of postponing the''
such was the nature of the question. Could the Ho- discussion of the Expedition to Walcheren, 'as if he
nourable Baronet doubt the authority of the House felt the halter about his neck, and was begging a day's
to commit strangers for contempt, which he, had at-{,reprieve : yet, wishing no delay, he still looked to the
tempted to prove in language not only inconclusive, issue of-that discussion with the greatest anxiety,
becau :e he anticipated it with 'the greatest con
but of a had taste—(A laugh.)—Would not you, Sir,
(addressing himself to the Speaker) who have ever deuce.--(Hear, hear.)—He had no wish to stay its
filled that Chair with manly dignity, interpose your course ; for the more it was sifted, the' better would.
authority if such expressions, which I shall now read, turn out to have been the conduct of those who
were uttered het*, expressions aiming at and insult-. planned it. He, therefore, asked fer no time, 'nor
ing the dignity of this House and that Chair ? did he ask for time when charged with the selling of
" Let this instrument:this thing, sui rtcria, be contrasted with places ; nor-did the Honourable Baronet now seem
the description above given of the properties of a lawful warrant.
to ask for time: Surely the House had time enough,
Does it nor evidently appear that this piece of unsealed paper,
to signed by the Speaker, by which an untried subject has been out-
even this morning,
have read the libelous pub-
!awed, bears no feature of legality ?" lication, so as to have ascertained • its- nature; Both
If such were his expressions here, he repeated it its matter and manner was, he would say, as libel-,
_"-puld be the duty of that Chair to have called the lons as they could conceive them to be. Itepresenta:.
on. Baronet to order. Is this libel so obscure and tives might speak in that riOuse what they could
doubtful, as that it should be adjourned over ? No ; not write to their Constituents: Sir Francis Burdett
argument the-Honourable Baronet had left aside, and called on his Constituents to resist the House ; yet
launched at once into a libel on the House of Corn- this not in, or from that House. And what was that.
mons ; a libel monstrous in itself', and made up of call ? Adverting to what he was pleased to denomi-,
vituperated language : nate the assumed prero:vativcs of that Heusc, he des-
`' Inflated with their high-blown fancied ideas of Majesty, and cribed an Omer of the fimise as counteracting, if not
tricked out in the trappings of Royalty." . . superseding, our Magna Charta ! Here he would
What can the H. Baronet mean by this. He read the paragraph of Sir Francis to his Constituents,
knew of no trappings btu the mace on the table ; and be •• It is now time to resist the Order of the
did he arraign this ? He should conclude, he said, by House of Cornmo-us." Would it be said, that this ,
reading another passage— resistance consisted in arg
omen[. But, Sir Francis'l
" One cannot with ouch impressions in one's .mind, help en-
t
tertaining a fear that, the Gentlemen cit.the liotige Conmions says, that the House o Commons has dispensed
may in One, unless they%fevert to,the -great princip.:es of the With the Liw ; as " if Magria Charta, and all the
Co.istittltion, be in danger of incurring the sentence nt St. Paul ,wholesome laws of England be a dead letter,"
upon the insolent and tyntlntisal High Priest, who commanded
nt-c
..—(L raid ~'Coors.)—'t To these laws the indivi-
" him to he struck for opening his mouth in his own defence,—
dual
now imprisoned, Jie adds, •• has, through
" Gon shall smite the thou ithited wall: for sitttst thou to judge
"me after the law,. and coiumandest me to be smitten contrary me, applied for redress in vain. Those who have
to trw r imprisoned him have refu.ed to listen to my voice ;
" - .

What does:the Hon. Minuet mean by 4!.revert ;"
can it be et"piaineif?.: If cgiticism. could turnaside the
sting of the libel, the.adjournment of a week would
not be sußicient ihr the purpose..
• Sir'SAMUEI.. ROMILLY thought it incumbent
-On-the House, and sonsistent with the tespect it owed
its own character, to proceed-With calm' and atie de-
. liberation. They erete not to forget that they were.
placed in a still more delicate situation, by being
.judges in their cause, and-that tu•that. two•foLd cha-
racter they joiued-that otacettfer.f.also. He owned
that when reverting to.aheprinciples.Of natural jus-
tice, and to those of the las), to which he had been
brought up, he felt-cariiide?able danbti on his mind as
to the question They were called upon to decide; and
if he was pressed to vote while in that state of liuspente,
be should certainly feelbimself bound, by all the prin-
ciples of English layv and of equity, to vote for an ac-
quittal, as isluryWouldilo in asimilar case. HeWished,
besides, to see all hostile feelings banished from a
discussion of this kind, and notiting, he was sum,
could tend. more to facilitate that desirable object
than an adjournment, which would reve all the
angry passions a sufficient time to cool. A great
deal had been said about the dignity of that House,
and no man had for it a greater regard or a greatet
respect ; -but ho could not see how it could be com-
promised by the required delay. He owned that he
was not
.endowed with the courage of some other
Members ; when she considered the aspersions lately
thrown out against this House by -individuals in as-
semblies and in meetings, he could not help feeling
apprehensive of entering into a contest, in which the
privileges of this House were on one side, and the
opinion of the people on the other. If Gentlemen
themselves, who now seem so anxious for an immedi-
; ate decision, were to consider the case attentively,
and consult their own bosoms, they would find that
I they sill wanted much information, to come to 4
conscientious decision. As to his own part, he had
rireard indeed some few observations, but no legal
comments, no application of the doctrine of libels to
the obnoxious address. .He had even remarked, that
1 some of the mist strenuous advocates for an imme-
diate decision had strangely misunderstood and mis-
I quoted some of the passages. Was it, he would ask,

your voice may come with more force, may command
greater respect,"-atc. &c. What was the, meaning of
all this ? Read on.--" It was the same great prin-
ciple," continues Sir Francis Burdett, " which was
again attacked by Charles I. in the measure of Ship
Money, when again the People of England, and an
uncorrupted House of Commons, renewed the con-
test• A—a contest which ended in the imprisonment, the
trial, the condemnation, and the erectition of that ill;
advised King."—(Here the criet of hear, hear, were
loud and long.)--Sir Francis Burdett now called on his
constituents to'resist grim-visaged prerogative ;"
for why were they to " be afraid to enter the lists
with undefined-privilege, assuming.the powers of pre-
rogative ?" Language of this . kind tended only to
bring the House. into contempt ; nothing more libel-
, loos could be pscnneci; and, .if so, would an adjourn-
niznt for a week remove the fact of--libek
Honourable Friend (Sir Samuel Romilly) did not
seem to know what was meant by the words, " lord-
ing it,' by burgage tenure, over King and People."
He was at no loss to know what they meant. The
Honourable' Baronet did not dispute the power of the
House over its own Members ; but as it was applied
to the cases of strangers. Sul-'posing the fate of Mr.
GaleJoneito.havesbeen, as was now said, illegally-
decided, it would better have become the.Honourable
Baronet to have arraigned it.in that_House, than to
have animadverted on it tel his "constituents—(Hear,
hear.) Commitments were not unfrequent. During
the reign of.. Elizabeth, Mr. Hall, a Member, was
committed; and, following down to the year 1701,
and later years, th 4 House of Commons, time after
time, most strenuously -insisted on its privilege of
committment. Such were the proceedings of our an-
cestors, continued to be acted upon by our immediate
progenitors ; yet. perhaps the time was come, as Lord
Kenyon said, Government was to be overturned by
sedulously calumniating the Courts of Justice and
both Houses of Parliament. Regretting though
did that the present case applied to any represetv
in Parliarhent ; still, having sent Mr. Jones v
what would the world think, if, where
was worse, the House failed xo proceed -
cis Burdett • If, under the mistak-
giving a triumph to him, the House

;ken

_

,

.
_ . .

very ee
dopb
minus stated 4
b)
were ...Jed to the respect of the House. They eje
Would do well' to decide, not merely.as to cl•?.?. pit- - •
priety or improprieey of Sir Frantis Burdett's Le" iti:te e • -7-•.
but also .as to the'doctrines which it coritained:-L-(heee, .
hear.) The Right flon.Ge'rnlernan (Mr.'Perceeal)lead * -
cited the case of Mr. Hall : this case occtisiettriot : :4
the best days, nor the best times, since M. Haft wit .4; -
both fined aud imprisoned. If„nevertheless, the
Right Hon. Gentleman wished to avail himself of
that case, he might as well do it in full. Much the
same was the fate of the Kentish Petition, which .; •
ended _with a kind of parliamentary compromise.---
Something had been said of factious persons overturn-
ing the Government; at least, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman could not prevent the people of the country .
fronethinking, though he might wish topreirent them
from speaking, especially when; during the List Ses-
sion, they had found that two of three Ministers had
been employed in ipfluencing the return of their
representative--( .hear.)—lt seemed;. indeed, as .
if the Right Hon. Gentlemen was anxious only to
stifle the voice cf the. people ; but he trusted the day
e•as not yet came, that it never would come, when
the voize of dui people would be stiffed respecting
the conduct of their representatives. From what the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had said, he thought it quite appa-
rent that he had not read the paper with that atten-
tion that was necessary before the House could come
to a -decision. That Right Hon. Gentleman had laid
particular stress on the word " resist." Now, in ano-
ther part of the paper he would have that word
also used and coupled with the word " legal-;"
but .in melt a meaner as to make it appear to
any impartial man that the opinion intended to be
conveyed was different to the construction endea-
youred to be put upon it by some Getitlemen opposite.
The question was an ii-Npertent one,• and requited
much time to give it, that consideration so intricate .
and elaborate a case demanded,- and he thought
the -
House would consult its own dignity by supporting
the motion for adjournment. Thinking that time
was necessary to enable Ilse House to be competes: o
decide on the resolutions, he should support Ae mo- •
tion for adjournment.
Mr. CURWEN read a few words in explanation.
Mr: ADAM said, that it was in this case necessary
to act with die deliberation, in order to Convince the
public, that nothing had been done in haste, or pas-
sion, er ignorance. It was not enough to say that the
question of privilege. had been already examined, in
the case of Mr. Gale Jones ; a new and peculiar con-
sideration
was necessary on the present point : there •e
had not been a case of the committal of a Member for
thirty years. In fact, the case before the House was 1.
perfectly new to the present Members. 'There was •
probably not a man of all that he then saw a Mem-
ber at that period when the case of Alde-man-Olivee's t
committal occurred l• many were not then
,in public
life, and many were not even born. In the, case of
„Major Scott, when the question was of a Member. ; •
publishing a libel, the charge was brought on a cer-
tain day, and the discussion put nfF for a week.-_
(Hear.) The case of Alderman Oliver, in 1775, was .
-the only other one within his (Mr. Adam's) experience; » -
that was a case which excited great discussion, and the
decision was not formed till after the most grave:and
meturedebating and inquiry. The paper complained j
of in the present instance was not one which admitted
of a light supervision ; it was a grave and weighty
argument, on a subject of the first importance ;—it
was supported bebmuch appeal to great law• autho-
rities, and yet Relies on this that they were required
to decide per :Attn. " This to me at least (said Mr.
Adam), is impossible. The Right Honourable Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer is not to estiinate my means
by his advantages for ready decision, he has "all ap-
pliances and means to boot ;' he has leagal friends to
select, arrange, and supply him with evidence; I have
only to sit down at three in the morning to look into
the cases which were referred to in the -Honourable •
Baronet's paper._ The single case of Crosby, the
.Lord Mayor of London, was one which might require
deep examination—Lord Chief Justice De Grey's $
opinion on it was before me,, but sitting down as I
-did, even at that hour, the references on which any
fair judgment was to be-found, could not be collec- ;
ted in any convenient time. In order to feel a lull r
reliance on the opinion of even that distinguished- ) •
Judge, it was necessary to follow the authorities and •
know by actual inspection the grounds on which his , -
opinion was formed.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL flattered himself le
that there was time enough for the House to have. ;
come to a full judgment on the subject. It had been •
now three days before them ; the case was before
them in the committal ofMr: G. Jones. The Learned
Member who had just spoken had called for time, but
he must have made up his mind on the poi& of de-
bate for it was that on which the House committed
Mr. Jones : the vote on that occasion was unanimous; . -
and of course the scruples of Honourable Members • •
had been reconciled on that occasion. Sir F. 'Burdett
had tictually introduced no new point of privilege, ••
for he admitted the power of the House to commit
its own litembers, and the House had already decided -
upon the question of the committal of strangers, by
committing Mr. G. Jones. The offensive language - -
of the paper was matter of no long deliberation.. • • • •
The Attorney General sat down amid a generarery •
of Question. •
r. BRAGGE BATHURSThid,fropithebegig•
ning, wished to have a long day for the consideration, `..•`
hof e
atrh(ei
ipnaopleer
dtetnt
eboenfolyr ecotlnietimrm,
and all ti
ed Trim in thatia t
ohpei n hi
oat
He had heard the

~.

bate might be
must first.thinl
'me. They wt.
Inds from what
'ay might alloy
must delay t
csaii for aju
I not be att
know that

(-----71
• . _______
......
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1 'that trititiiiii it, Veering bi piOcsed,
..tito jectipi
as it Were, lie down to be trod ttpon---.(L•fut were 40 }id- . .. .
..
N 7 .t
i theftete they; indeed, • . .is -,, ..
Ne moriati mOri: . .., _
..
. .
L Lord VOLkSTONE said, that the speech ads* - 1 : :•- ! 1
. Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) tended only •I, ...
". ' ~ 1
• to strengthen the motion for adjournment. He had s. •
L. absolutely misunderitood and mis-stated the very ,: " l*.
, precedents on which he appeared to Felt. The doub!t* :2 • .3.: ' .]
:lone Learned and Honourable Member (Sir Samuti ' - ' • :
• Romilly) stated by himself, with great force of mint'. ..' ' '
! were entitled to the respect of the House. Thpv 1 ..

was come, as Lord He had heard it said that an adjournment:of the dit;
be overturned by bate might be imputed to fe.ir or partiality, but they
-ts of Justice and must first-think of justice. and for that they must have
;retting though he. time.. They were not to admit any influence on theix7.
any representative minds from what had been said of the evil spirit whidi ' t
Ir. Jones to prison, delay might allow, to be generated in the country;-••
where the offence they must delay their proceedings as long as it was •, •
reed with,Sir Fran- necessary for a just judgment—but those idle motiveilt: -7 -
ken persuasion of would not be attributed to the 'House, the count*.
should so give him ' would know that there were sufficient motives for 016:"
• a