Star.
London, England, 1820-07-19 00:00:00

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some abservatioin on the subject, referred to certaks
provisionebf the A..c,Kof the 16th of the lstte King,
respecting offenders who attempted to disguise their
faces by blackening or other means, which provisions
he proposed should- be 'left untouched .115. anything
in the Bill before theiiLordsliipi.
. . The Marquis of LIMSDOWN signified his ac-
quiescence in the proposition- of the NOble and
Learned Lord ; and the Bill, after receiving a cor-
responding Amendment, was read the third time
and passed.
= On the question for the.third reading of the Ca-
Thal Felonies Repeal Bill, a discussion of some
length took place.
The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed consider-
able 'doubts as to the effect of passing the Bill in its
present shape. -It would militate too extensively
against the principle upon which so great a portion
- of our law of punishment is founded. The Noble
and Learned Lord then referred to provisions in
- various Statutes,-which he was certain it would be
essential to the due administration of justice should
be left untouched. He also thought, with respect to
thz effect of those Statutes, at least it would be pro-
per nothing should be done until they had the opi-
,n'on of the Judges upon the subject; and, in his view
• of the question, he thought it would be desirable to
have the Bill recommitted.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN had no decided
objection to the course proposed by the Noble Lord
on the Woolsack ; and h: had no objection to the
leaving out those parts of the Bill adverted to, in or-
der to their lying over till the next Session for more
deliberate discussion. The leading provisions of the
hill went to change or commute the punishment for
the offence, enumerated in the Bill, now liable to the
infliction of death, to the punishment of transporta-
tion for not less than seven years.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL wished to offer one
single idea to the consideration of the House. Let
their Lordships consider what the fact of transporta-
tion for life or for a term of years, really was—it was,
in point of fact, upon the whole, regarded as no
punishment. The great defective point in all the
Criminal Law System of this country was, that there
was no secondary punishment theiein. 'When that
of transportation was first enacted, perhaps it was
considered as an infliction little short of death. The
convicts were sent to the burning shores of Africa, or
sent to the back settlements of America, where they
were sold as servants, and placed perhaps in a worse
situation than in the other place; in short, transporta-
tion was then looked upon as worse than death.—
In the present day the thing was widely different;
for his own part, he was officially beset with appli-
carrions from individuals to go out to New South
Wales as free sutlers, which they deemed a great be-
nefit and advantage, and the convicts who were sent
thither deemed it the best thing that could he done
for them to be sent to Botany Biy. Thus to increase
the practice of temptation, as would be the effect of
the bill, would be beginning at the wrong end. The
punishment of death, in many points of view, it may
be well to hold out in terrorem. lie merely threw
out those ideas for the eventual consideration of the
House, not meaning to offer anything founded there.
on on the present occasion.

The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed his full
concurrence in the suggestion of his Noble Friend.—
The want of some secondary punishment was the
great defect in our Criminal Code. Transportation,
he also thought, was not now regarded as a punish-
ment ; on the contrary, he believed many offences
were committed in the hope of being adjudged to
tr.msportition. The Learned Judges were generally
impressed with these sentiments, and they felt much
difficulty in acting to their own satisfaction under that
defect in the code. Such parts of the present Bill as
went to increase the evil alluded to, ought not, he
thought, to be enacted.

Lord R EDESD ALE said, that persons were often
prevented from bringing offenders to justice, not
from any feeling that the law was unnecessarily se-
vere, but because they did not wish to be at the ex-
pense of the prosecution. Such expense ought to fall
not upon the individual, but upon the Public. Ile
bad known a case of extreme hardship to a person
who had prosecuted a culprit. The expense amounted
to £l5O more than he was allowed, and had a sub-
scription not been made for him by his neighbours,
he would have been utterly tuineJ, being a man in
straightened ciicumstances. One peculiar advan-
tage resulted from the law as it now stood ; it was
this, that persons even with the determination of
committing crimes, were induced to abstain from
those brutal acts of violence which disgraced other
countries, under the impression that, even should
they be convicted, the Royal mercy might' be ex-
tended to them. It was peculiar to the policy of our
jurisprudence to describe crimes under general terms,
and to apportion the punishment to the highest ag-,
gravation of them. In cases not marked with any ;
particular feature of more heinous delinquency, thei
prerogative of mercy was very properly exercised in
favour of the person convicted, while it was as justly
denied when the facts did not warrant a mitigation
of punishment. It had upon one occasion become
his painful duty to pass sentence of death upon a wo-
man s.;ve;lty-six years old, who had been in the prac-
tice of horse-stealing for forty or fifty years before.
Their Lordships would see that this was a case where.'
the Royal clemency ought not to he extended, yet the
Bill now before their Lordships took away capital
punishment from ail cases of a similar description.
Earl BATIIIMST had strong doubts whether
transportation could ever prove a good secondary pu-
nishment. Punishment ought not only to be severe
upon the individual, but it ought to be of such a na-
ture .as to produce a salutary effect by its example.
The .persons sent out upon the Commission to New
South Wales, had with this view been directed to
ascertain whether any more severe punishment might
not be inflicted on offenders in that Colony, in order
that those at home might be deterred in the progress
of their delinquency. There was another point which
their Lordships ought to consider in reference to this
subject—it was, the very great expense attending the
secondary punishment of transportation, which was
become a serious burden upon the country.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that neither
this Bill, nor the other two Bills, professed to do
away capital punishment in cases where personal
violence was offered, and that the effect of them
would be to render the punishment of death more

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certain, where the crime wait of- such a =tuft as to
*inland the forfeiture of life. •
The LORD CHANCELLOR then proposed, that
so much as relates to the 9th Geo. 111. ch. 6, to the
92d Geo. n. to the Bth teall. ch. 27 and ch. 19,4:
and 9, should be omitted in the Bill, which bring
agreed to, the Bill was read a third time andotssed.
THE NAVY. . r
The Earl of DARNLEY, before their Letshilips
proceeded to the other Orders of .the Day, begged
leave to make a few observations upon a subject to
which he would have called their Lordships atten-
tion at an earlier period but for the full occupation
which recent proceedings had afforded them. It had
occurred to him that it would be most desirable, in
the possible event of any hostilities breaking out be-
tween this country and any other maritime power,
to prevent the recurrence of that difficulty and dis-
tress which were experienced at the commencement
of the late American war, in consequence of the in-'
adequacy of our naval force, of a certain description,
to cope with that of tie enemy. He was anxious,
therefore, to ascertain, in the first place, the state of
reparation in which the Navy at present was; and,
in the second, to have a return of the number of
ships of the line in commission, or ready for service.
By these means he should be able to put the House
in possession of the number of two-deckers and fri-
gates carrying 24.-pounders on their upper decks.—
The Noble Earl then went on to state what he un-
derstood to be the existing number of King's'ships of
different sizes ; and observed, that there were none
of a description answering to the American frigates,
all of them being too large or too light to cope with
them. The best sort of ship was that which bore
the largest force in the smallest compass. Consi-
dering the acquirement of such information, and the
discussion of this subject as of very great importance
to the coantry,•it was his intention, on a future occa..
sion, to move for the Returns he had mentioned. In
the meanwhile, he was anxious to give the Navy
Board, and the Noble Lord at its head, their due
credit ; for the British Navy, at this moment, was
on a more respectable footing than it had ever been
before in time of peace. After some further details,
the Noble Earl complained that the Estimates for
the last year were much larger:than those of the,
preceding, connected with this subject, and that it
was quite impossible for the country to go on pros-
perously while the present immense scale of public
expenditure was kept up.
Lord MELVILLE, in reply, began by observing,
that although it was irregular, when no motion was
submitted, to offer any observations upon the inten-
tions of Noble Lords, he felt it necessary, oh this
occasion, to say a few words. As to the expense of
the Naval Department, it might reasonably be ex.
pected to diminish year after year, in consequeacc of
the improved system upon which it was conducted,
and of the great attention that had been paid to the
goodness and durability of the stores and eq':ipinents.
—The unfortunate necessity under which we had
been, some years since, of imparting every descrip-
tion of stores from the Baltic, had introduced the
seeds of a ruinous decay, which he Was happy to say
was in a progress of speedy eradication. The reason
why it had not been thought proper to build new
ships of the size and character to which the Noble
Earl had adverted was, in fact, a principle of the
soundest economy, it being at once more expeditious,
expedient, and economical to repair the ships we
already possessed in a durable and efficient manner,
than to build new ones. As to the difference in the
Estimates of the two last years, it was very natural
that the Noble Earl should be led into a mistake
upon the subject ; the truth being, that it resulted
principally from the manner in which those Estimates
had formerly been made up, very many of the ex-
penses having been charged under the wrong heads.

ALIEN BILL.

Lord SIDMOCTH, in rising to move the Order
of the Day for the second reading of this Bill, said,
it was now unnecessary for him to advert to the un-
doubted right whiCh appertained to the prerogative,'
of the Crown, not only to order foreigners out of the'
kingdom at pleasure, but also to prohibit them from
entering it. This right was not to be disputed. The
Bill proposed in 1818 did little more than define and
accelerate the manner in which the prerogative of
the Crown was to be acted upon. it would be for
their Lordships to consider, whether, since the Bill
of 1818 was passed, any favourable alteration had
taken place in the circumstances of this country or of
Europe, to render the measure less necessary now
than at that period: lie regretted, however, to state,
that, in his opinion, no such favourable change had
occurred; but that, on the contrary, the Bill appeared
to him to be more imperiously called for than at the
time it was first proposed. He wished their Lord-
ships to consider what were the provisions of the Bill
with respect to Aliens. Their Lordships would per-
ceive that they were so modified as to give to fo-
reigners every possible indulgence, consistent with a
due regard to the objects which the measure itself
contemplated. Upon the landing of an Alien, he
was to report his name, his age, profession, and otter'
particulars, to the Collector of ti)e Customs, who was
to give a certificate, which, on producing it, would
enable him to pass unmolested from one part of the
country to the other. Now that be had shewn that
this right of dismissing foreigners from the kingdom
and preventing them from entering it, belonged to
the prerogative of the Crown, it would next remain
for him to satisfy their Lordships that it had not been
abused. This was a point upon which their Lord-
ships must feel anxious; and,he assured them, if any
abuse had taken place, it was not from want of soli-
citude on his part that the right should be duly and
properly exercised:--indeed, it might reasonably
be inferred that no abuse had taken place, •as not a
single resident Alien had been remanded from the
country under the Act of 1818, and only nine indi-
viduals of any description. He should not shrink
from performing his duty with regard to this measure,
however Noble Lords might differ with him upon its
general or particular merits. With this feeling upon
his mind, he should now move, " That the Bill be
read a second time."

The Earl of DARNLEY opposed the Motion. He
regretted that he had not been present on the former
occasion, to express the sentiments of indignation he
felt at a measure so truly disgraceful to the character
of the.country. He deprecated the conduct of his
,Majeoty's Ministers,. in coming forwaid,tyear after
year, and calling for such a Bill as this, in a petiod
of profound peace. Did they, or did
Noble 14,

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tiseliere that a few foreigners cotiiiag tilt this country
could possibly disturb or affect its internal repose, or
injure its external iniiirasti? Theargnments of the
Noble Lord were urged with his peculiar mildness,
raid would shew that no abuse could take place of
the power that was vested in him. He was willing
to give the Noble Lord every credit for gentleness
and good feeling; but still he could not consent to
.place such extensive power in the hands of any indi-
vidual, however excellent might be the qualities of
his heart. It was the policy of this. country always
to encourage, rather than repel foreigners. But this
was a law against every principle of policy, justice,
and humanity ; it was one which, as he had, already
staled, was most disgraceful to the nation; and he
should not suffer that Bill to pass, without entering

his decided protest against it.
Lord HOLLAND said, however unfavourable the
state of the-House of. Parliament, and the public
mind might be to the discussion of the Bill, he should
enter his protest against it, and make a few observa-
tions as to the manner and the time in which it was

introduced to their Lordships. After having so many
times urged on the House the cruelty, the injustice,
the unconstitutionality, and the impolicy of this law,
he should not now press those great points on their
Lordships, but he could not help addressing hinistlf
to the manner in which it had been introduced. He
felt, indeed, the irksomeness of addressing the House
at that hour of the night, and at that time of the Ses-
sion, well .knowing, as he also did, that the public
mind was occupied with another topic. But as he
,thought this Bill well worthy of attention, he was
.not to be deterred from performing his duty, because
there was another subject which attracted much at-
tention. As to that subject, indeed, the Public and
Parliament, and in some degree, he would own, he
himself were in the situatien which was destribeci by
the author of a book which he had read eighteen
years ago. The author of that book, Mr. Eaton,
who had put his obserrations during his travels in
Turkey into a book called The Survey of the Turkish
Empire, happened to land at a port of bulgatia with
twenty-six persons in his suite, where he was intro-
duced to the Greek Governor, who was sitting on a
bench with a Turk of great distinction. This Turk,
with a look which manifested that " great distinc-
tion," gave his order, that Mr. Eaton, with all his
suite, should have their heads cut off, and he accord-

ingly sent for a bag, probably a green bag, as green
was a colour in great honour with persons of that
persuasion—(A laugh)—and for some saw-dust,. the
bag being to receive the heads, and the saw-dust to
absorb the blood of Mr. Eaton and his companions.
In the suite of Mr. Eaton, was an interpreter of the
Italian nation, besides whom, there was not one who
could speak a word of Turkish. The whole of the
twenty-six were very earnest with the interpreter to
state who they were, and what claims they had on
the respect of the Turkish Authorities. But he had
unfortunately got a glimpse of the bag, and with all
the grimace which is peculiar to the people of the
South of Europe, he kept exclaiming (and_ not a
word else would he utter), " quel sacco quel
malcdetto sacco Oh ! that bag ! that accursed bag!"
(A laugh)—So that Mr. Eaton and his followers were
in imminent danger of losing their property, their
lives, and probably their characters, because this bag
so filled the imagination of the interpreter. When
he saw the number of Bills on the table, he thought
the country was something in the situation of Mr.
Eaton's suite, since Parliament, the interpreter of the
wishes of the people, was likely to allow their pockets
to be picked, and their liberties to be endangered,
because of their dismay at the accursed Green Bag!
(A laugh).—This, perhaps, might be the reason of
the very short introduction with which the Noble Vis-
Count had prefaced his Bill. If indifference to the
credit of the country and to the feelings of the people
were a merit, the speech of the Noble Viscount
seemed to shew it in the highest degree. It was
called in common phrase cool and easy r(A laugh).
The Noble Viscount had asked them, whether they
saw any reasons in 1818, which did not exist in 1820?
and on the strength of this interrogation he called on'
them to deliver several thousands of human beings to
the arbitrary power of the Minister. For they should
nut lay the flattering unction to their souls that they
were only granting a particular branch of, power—
the power of banishing a man from the country in
which he was settled, included every other power; it
included a power over his property, a power over
his happiness—( Hear, hear).-1;le had heard the
Noble Viscount eloquent at times in praise of the
laws and the Constitution. This Bill was nothing
but a satire, a libel on the laws of England ; as the
argument on which it was founded was nothing, if
it were not subversive of every free Government.—
They now talked of Aliens, as at other times they
talked of Catholics, as if there was nothing to pre-
vent treason and sedition, but these occasional laws.
There might be bad Frenchmen, there might be bad
Aliens, who came here for the purpose of overturn-.
ing the Government (no easy thing for a foreigner
to do, but that by the bye)—it was just possible that
a foreigner might come here with that intention.—
But had we no protection against such a man ?
(Hear, hear).—The Noble Lord would not object to
all our Treason laws, as he was supposed to do to
that of 1696? What did we want but the security
of our laws? Whether the persons who assailed the
State were Catholics or Protestants, Englishmen or
Aliens, were not our laws sufficient to protect it ?
( Hear, hear).—Whatever the malice of Aliens might
be, he knew not of any greater necessity for an addi-,
tional law to protect the country against it, than. to
protect it against a Thistlewood, or any other per-
sons who might entertain atrocious and wicked de-
signs. Whatever little argument the Noble Viscount
bad vouchsafed them, consisted in the assertion that
the power to be given by this Bill was a prerogative
of the Crown, and in the presumption that this power
would Rot be abused. It was a little remarkable, on
what different grounds the Bill had been, at different
times, introduced. If the power of sending friendly
Aliens out of the country was a prerogative of the
Crown, there surely must have been a means of exer-
cising it—( Hear, hear).—A prerogative would not
remain in abeyance—and_he should be allowed to
say, that nothing was a prerogative that was not
given to be exercised for the advantage of the corn-
=unity of which the King was the Chief Magistrate.
ft was a singular thing, that from the period of,
MagriMarta to Queen Elizabeth; that in the 27 Acts
of Parliament which related to this subjeCt, there was
as mention, no appearance that any such prerogative