Star.
London, England, 1828-07-12 00:00:00

meets of . . . . . .
Which, added to the Vote of Credit taken lest year,
reduced the amount by about

. .

Leaving what he proposed as the charge to be pro-
vided for, exclusive of Exchequer Bills . . 18,e6,090
He now came to the Ways and Means, by which that charge was
to be met.

Surplus of Ways and Means
Grant from the East India Company

. ,
Repayment of Exchequer Dills issued for Public
Works . . • • • • • .

.CZ:;3g000
80,0011

IMOCO
3;000,001

Annual Duties on Sugar . • . . .
Trusters of Naval and Military Pensions for Half a
Year to-sth July, 1827 2,1344111
Surplus of the Consolidated Fund • . . 10,190,008
Ways and Means for 1827, to be applied to the Ser.

vice of 1828 3,012;60
Of this last item it was necessary to give some expla-
nation to the Committee. In the financial statement of
last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to
take up the advances made by the Bank to that amount,
and took that vote from the House. The three millions
of debt, so created, were replaced by the issue of Ex-
chequer' Bills. Therefore the whole amoynt of Exche-
quer Bills, to be voted this year, would exceed the
former amount by three millions, as contemplated by
Mr. Canning. This funded debt was of no new creation,
the amount having before been charged upon the Car-
solidated Fund, which was inadequate to meet it. The
result of this statement was, that the Ways and Means
of the present year afforded 18,869 0001. to meet an
expenditure of 18,628,0001. Having, then, stated to
the Committee what he conceived to be a justifiabk
estimate ot.the income and expenditure of the country,
an explanation, of the manner in which he proposed
the surplus to be applied, and a statement of the sop.
plies granted, and of the ways and means by which
they were to be met, he was not aware that it would
be necessary for him to trouble them with any funfair
observations. He would forbear from indulging is
any anticipations of what the resources or the wants of
the country would be in future years; yet he could not
deny himself the satisfaction of congratulating the •
Comthittee. upon its general state and prospects.—
If they looked to the state of trade, they would find
it to be one in which our exports, during the last .
year, gave a considerable excess over those of any it
the preceding five—one which afforded every eo-
viuragement to the hope of permanent employment
and prosperity to the manufacturers, shicli depen
on the labour of so large a portion of the population.
It they looked to the Shipping Ii terest, they t and
welfare indicated by an augmentation of the q.antil
of tonnage entering our ports, which showed an increaiie
in.the amount of imports corresponding with that et-
hihited in our exports. He saw a smile hom some
I lonourable Gentlemen, intimating that this had been a
disputi-d point in a former night's discussion; .hut 'he
appealed to the returns, which proved that there had
been a considerable augmentation of imports, corres-
ponding with and producing that increase in the execute
of the county by which British manufacturei were car-
ried to every part of the globe, in return for tine
articles which we received from fireign nations. h
they looked to the comforts and prosperity of the peo-
ple as indicated by the Excise Revenue, they tteti.ti
find that in most articles of that Revenue there tc.r. s
large increase over the produce of the preceding year.
It they looked to those articles of internal constituent;
which depended greatly upon the means of the humbler
classes, they found a. generally increased consumplini•
The auhMentation upon the last year's consilmrtibe
was, in

Candles . 4 per cent. I Printed Goods . per mot.
Paper . . 20 Spirits . . 9
In short, upon all articles of Excise Revenue within the
last half year, there hind been an augmeniation,varY4
from five to twenty-nine per cent. in the consumrec
of the lower orders; and they found, too, that the..""
crease was not only in the favoured di,tricts 01 -E"g'
land, but that it also extended, he was happy to sayeto
the working classes of Ireland. Could he then, wlieg
he saw this augmentation of our imports giving even'
sion to the rewards of manufacturing enterprise—when,
he saw the Excise Revenue giving the surest index ct
increasing
comfort amongst the people, and Affecong
no less the
prosperity of the higher orders, whi,:!l was
further confirmed by the returns to the assessed tales--
could he then desist from congratulating the House
upon this state of progressive improvement, no less "
affording a satisfactory prospect for the Revenue, than,
what he regnded with much more satisfaction, as being
the sure.t hat binger t,f permanent wealth and prthpell
to the empire?—(Cheers). The Right Hotiourabx
Gentleman then moved the following Resolution.:
" That it is the opinion of this COmmictee, that. towards•the
supply 'for' the current year, a sum not exceeding 3,012,601. b(
granted to his Majesty, 'ant bf the Ways and Weans remainita

rquer, for the service of the year taaa."—(The Right
de Gentiaman sat down,amid loud cheering).
•lABERLY expressed his opinion chat the Right
able Gentleman had dealt a ith the subject fully
ly, and h.d pot the wh le Cif :11111Sti411(C• of the
, good and had, clove be H e. Ca fling
first man .0 state boldly that the Smki• g Fund
te.l by a system of borr• wing, and it was satis.
to find that ae had at length arrived at a plain
ending of the suject. It was clear that if the
pied the pi inciole • f the Right Hon. Gentle-
r should cap nd four millions, for without this
s not a surplus of more than two millions. He
s st.teavt,at we had done in 1826—what we
e in 1827—and %hat we were to do in 1829.
nmittee had considt-red that there would be 4
•evenue or two millions, without b-rrowing, end
r thought that that sum had been increased
If decreasing. One object he had in view, how.
, that the dead weight should cease, and we
cal with the S nking Fund out of this surplus
ht Hon. Gentleman then appeared t i think that
:iples of the Sinking Fund ought still to be kept
uch a system (mainly could tr t continue long.
Noble Lord sugge:t -al this system of delu-
tad gone nn and had been fostered, until Mr.
admitted that this plan of the five millions was
what most persons knew it to be—a delusion.
Maberly) was happy to hear the Right Hon.
an opposite declare that this delusion was not
[unwed ; th it delusion, however, had produced
to most injurious to the country, and it ought
r to be pointed out how that injury had been in-
n order that future Ministers might profit by the
ce of the past. In his (Mr. Alaberly's) opinion,
ridualwho had had aught to do with that system,
cted an irreparable injury on his country; and he i
that the R.ght Hon. Gentleman, who now held
of e'iancellor of the Exchequer, had nest been
p with it. Flom this reas:in, it was fair ar
a more beneficial arrangement under his in-
om the year 1°792 to the present, the Sinking
id never been adhered to; it had been violated
instances, ami it was therefore a delosieso..—
mild consequently be no impropriety in taking
e mask, and exposing it in its own features.
e que tion of ihe dead weight, the House bad
no less than eleven times; this was one proof
'ay in a hick the Act , had been received by the
hit theSinicingFund bad not only been a delusion,
.en an actual loscto the country ; he would not
sum to which that loss moulted. because upon
a there was a great variety of opinion ; he would
wever, that it had operated most injuriously.—
by annuities had also been very great; to the
there had been annuities granted to the extent
,0001. and the injury to the country from th•s
ad been immense.%The House ought to have the
fairly before theny, in order that the system
e exposed softly, as that no Minister would be
!induced to folow it. From the year 1816, many
sari establishments had been kept up, and a e
ended, actor ding to the lowest calculafiort, three
per annul* more. than we ought. . astordings
• iy just estimate, since 1816 no less than 65
had been unnecessarily squandered. It was,
. no „ wooder,i,valf.k, this unnecesParl aspen-
r4s millions. if
,we-were deeply in .debt„.and
bill dem of taxes were placed upon the, people.
es that had lately passed. the Hallsethat for
Is in Canada, and that for the survq, , for et-,
.ifurcied abo..idwrit proof that tbose.burdens
1 so be 6mtinued.We had, then, purseed.ra most
able dud dangerous course, and it was not sun-
hat large debt still hang over us..TheSe...thee,
Atte* eqeirs,tl our financial 6yittip—a quern
e friend had long deprecated without
mucri'support. They now. however. found the
on.Gentluman,..the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
with theM,4nd although they.could *e'er Pb-
thing.like a majority with all their talk,they.were
tVirbt:ina very large one, because the Com..
ad re:ommelided, and the Minister ti4Clvtaken a i
eral view. The measure that they had suggested
• to beadopted, although somewhat late so to do,
✓ an enormous loss. He hoped that• steps would,
taken to reduce the taxes with which the coup.,
aatesened,so that iticluwy might be encouraged,.,
akattneat Might be given to the people. With'
to ,the Finroce Committee, he would observe,
(Committee had looked narrowly into the state,
Room and, .in
,reference to their Report, it. was
'ward, that tbe ,Hpuse. had decided against any,
rII in the army,. the navy, and the ordnance. The
rou)dahUs•see at once that the House had no in.
.o reduce the iiten4ittue.; itsras cbgtifore ri'eht
▪ exptesea hope that neat year there would be,
ne to time, repeated propositicirts-for the reduce
the taxes. When he saw a determination not to'
he expenditure, he thought it was the duty of
ho thought it ought to- be, seduced to press it
ally upon the attention of the House. It was of
o appoint a Finance Committee to ascertain in
ty expenses could be reduced; if there.were no in.
to reduce them.

. , . .
....MESTER observed he was glad to find that
sous piece of nonsense of paying with one hand
as received by the other
.was, to be done awaj
re considered the sinking-Ftind a most injurious
becatum cur capital was too large, and. our* in-
* small to maintain it. The Sinking FUnd was
a sumptuary law, and led to innumerable evils.,
of • perievering in, nigh a systeM we ought to
tlje taxes, and give mutioo to the thousand um,
ed spindles at Manchester. This could not to
.:the Sinking fund ; but by a reduction of the
could be done. He shout() be,rocrs to see that '
kei t up ip any -way; and hopedit *would
;ether aboli'shed.
HUME spoke at considerable length upon the.
4gernent of the finances of the .country„ nod
fined that a .calculation of. his had been treatul
glect by the Finance Committee, wheilsad re-
take it into consideration at all, and,he should
e move, on some future day, that; it belaid upon.
e of the House, when it would become theit
us duty to make it tbe.subject of inquiry. What
n lost could not be regained, but it was highly
e to know what they had lost by so pernicious.a.
.It* was right that the country ..;Ip.rge..should
)ughlY convinced of the greatinjury proceeding
e Sinking. Fund. This was of the more illy
e, as he.understtmd that somerltb. ersost
I persons on the StockExchinge;b4eallifielming4
:ing yuld had beep tbi salivation of the counts y,
'tun) now
indeivouting. to prOduie such an
s should lead to its continuance. He hoped that
d begpn a new .catier that there would be no.
tg hocus pocus mystification its the public ac-
; but that, in-future, a plain intelligible balunce-
Tula be fortbcoming 'every year. The
between the* Batik of. England an& the God
ft* had been most ruinous in its Whoa. The
asl.no f4iasrs so4aeet cuss if=esviSolooadilff.V*l
take plate. The case-was difftztnt io Aasetica.-1

There every good bank was prepared to pay up in gold.
In 1825, the Bank of England, if the run had been a
little more severe, would have been unable to meet
its engagements. He contended, therefore, that .the
Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to give some
specific pledge that means should he adopted a; soon
a; possible to put an
,end to so injurious a connection.
Parliament ought to pass an Act limiting the sum
which the Government should .be able to receive
from the Bank, and tendering it necessary for the Mi 7
nistess, when more was required, to call the•Parlia-
meat together. He wished to see the term Sinking
Fund abrogated from the language in that House.--
He agreed with the plan at keeping up a surplus
vvenue of about 3.000,000/: but he very much ques-
tioned the propriety of the recommendation of the
Finance Committee, namely, that the surplus should
be invariably applied to the reduction of the National
Debt. He, however, at koowledged that they were
bound in faith to reduce, when practicable, the Na
tional Debt by repayment. • With respect to the
statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as to
there being a surplus of three millions fir the present
year, he could not admit it to be correct. One half of
it would be borrowed money, and therefore not appli-
cable to the reduction of the debt upon, the principle
laid down by the Finance Committee. According to
the plan at present laid down, four millions were to be
devoted to the Sinking Fund, 900.0001. of which were to
be raised by Exchequer Bills. Was that a sound principle
to go upon? It was no such thing, and yet it was to be
persevered in to the end of the year, although the Finance
Committee had designated the Sinking Fund as delu•ive
and injurious. They ought at once to stop short. They
had already exhausted the whole of their surplus revenue
for ihe present year. He, therefore, when the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer brought forward his motion for
the application of the surplus revenue, should propose
that the application should have reference to the actual
surplus only. He contended that the inaccuracy of the
sutements of the Finance Ministers was such as to call,
for the most serious attention tf the House. in Mr.
Canning's statement there was an error of upwards of
5,000,000(. The statement made by Mr. Robinson in
1826 war also incorrect, and on a future occasion he
should prove it to have been so.
MONCK advocated retrenchment and a retitle-
"tkin of taxation, and concurred in. the views taken by
his Honourable Friends the Members for Abingdon and
Aberdeen.

Mr. WARD was desirous of expressing his senti-
ments upon one point which had not been adverted to.
It was the promises which had been held out to the
fundholders with respect to the Stnkieg Fund. Having,
warm feelings upon the subject, he had taken pains to
learn what bad re illy been the language of Ministers
upoa the subject. Lord Lives pool expressly stated that
the Si king Fund was the great support of public credit.
His Lordship, after noticing the advantages arising
from a reduction of taxation, also stated that he con-
' Sideled the. maintenance of an efficient Sinking Fund of
so much importance, that by it he was determined •to
stand or fall. Such were the sentiment, of Lord Li-
verpool, which were concurred in by Lord •Castle-,
reagh; and he wished to know whethel. his Majesty's'
present. Ministers were prepared to abandon Vat princi-
ple, and to leave the fundholders, he would not say in
the lurch, but to take from them a security which had
been given to them by law ; and to make the change
,toe, at a time when the landowner h rd procured a corn
Jew favourable to his views? In Prussif an efficient
Sinking Fund had been maintained 'for twelve years,
and the security of the fundlinhier was consequently
increased. He defended the MAGIC, and cooteaditd that
it had.:dealt as liberally with •the-Goet ifientiOkies !my fn..
dividusl had done. Soine Ikon,gentlemed'ilictergoed,
strongly againtt.a Sinking. Fund, but he *aa•tienitleolly:
convinoed .that those who teem adverse to ei Sinkinv,
.Pund wercadverse to a reduction-of theltational debt.
rile did act wish to see one shilling applied to the Sink-
ing Fund chat was not of real surplus revenue, but he
was satisfied that the resources of the country were such
as to justify the belief that a real-surplus -might well be
provided. . •
thlaarraro and Mr. WARD mutually explained.

: Mr. BERRIES said, the Hon. Member for Montrose
had accused Mr. Canning of great inaccuracy in the
Budget which he laid before the House during the last
year. He would not attempt to go through all the
statements of the Hon. Member, bunhe would in:a very
simple manner refute his chief charge. The Hon. Mem-
ber had said. that the late Right Hon. Gentleman had •
made an error of upwards of 5,000,0001. Now what
was the fact? It did turn out that the estimate made
b.y Ms. Canning, of the probable Revenue for the year,
was more actuate than in general. His prediction did
not differ from the actual result move than 50,0001
The surplus for the five year S.W4S 23,879,000k.according
6 his estimation, and the sum required to be invested
14. the Commissioners for the reduction of the debt
for :that.. time, was .27,159,0001. so that the ride.
rents between the actual surplus and the sum requited
fur the Sinking fund was 3,180,0001. and Mr. Canning
had expressly stated that three: millions serald be re-1
quired to make ap the necessary sum. Therefore the
whole error, if such it could be called, amounted not to'
upwards of millions, but to 180,0001. He was asl
anxious as any person to see the public accounts as
simple as possible, and to have a plain, clear, Sinking
Fund ; but. .be never could concur with those who
thought that there should be no effort made to reduce
the debt. Such also was certainly the view of the
nanceCornmittee; and it was with great regret that it had
found it necessary to reduce the sum for the present year
to be applied to the Sioking fund to three,millions. He
agreed that the bonafide-starplus of the Revenue alone
should be applito the Sinking Fund; but he thought
that wiping shollklbe as large as the public could bear
without' any' serious ineonvenien.ce. . He could net,
however, agree with .hia Hon. ft iend Mr. Ward) in
thinking that the fundholder had not more claim to the
support of a Sinking Fund than any other member of
the community. The real security of the fundholder
was to see that the Parliament did that which was Most
conducive tcr.the public credit and welfare. The.in-
vestment cf a specified.sum reg.ularly..in.the funds might
tend for a time to keep up the price of stocks, but 'ulti-
mately it must, if not proceeding from a kanajdo sur-
plus, no increase the dent, as to. weaken, if not destroy,
the security.uf the landholder. When Mr. Pitt•aom..
nsenced the Sinking. Fund, be applied to it a Lora fide
surplus, and the circumstances cf the country fully jus-
tified the measure. The Member for Montrose seemed to,
stippose that, in ilse.coatheof 12 years, there bad bees
a ors of warless than 29,000,0001. Heired no doubt that,
upan more diligent inquiry, t 4 Hon: Gentleman would
fi*d 'bathewaf iti.error..„ He might to ben little more
&gam in coming to such conclpsions .because, in a
ft+ wee ,instaace. be spoke of 36,000,0001. which had
eqtitely.disappeared, and even. threw out some sly in-.
sifuationa ORO had found its way into the pockets of
Ministers.—,lt appeared, kpereaer. after wart)* that this
wits direly Owtngtß.pnaissions, which, wkrep, rectified,.
are* white,..apmtlnt.jitat . with respect te,;the
36,000,0001. he was completely in error. Hie mentioned

this merely rot the purpose of putting the Hon. Member
on his guard.—Nr. Hume—l am on my guard 3 Then
the Hon. Gentleman should show a little more caution.
Tile way in which these errors arose 'was, that Hon.
Gentlemen of en called for returns in such a way as they
thought hest oak ulated to answer the object they had in
view. The officer gave a correct return according to
t e order; but then, in many instances, the order was ,o
drawn go as not to produce a return sufficiently clear
and comprehensive. While he was connected with the
Treasury, the clerks were often called to make rettons
which must necessarily lead to absurd results ; but then
they were bound, whatever might be the result, to make
the returns in conformity to the order. It 'seemed to be
thought. that the 3,000,0001. Sinking Fund was to be
applied exclusively to the redemption of unfunded debt.
He did not collect from the statement of his Right
Hon• livable Friend (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) that such was his object. What he understood
him to say was, that in future, it was to be ap-
plied to the reduction of funded or unfunded debt,
as circumstances might render either more advi-
sable for the public advantage. It did not appeal
to him that the present would be a proper time to
apply it to the reduction of unfunded debt. Looking at
the state of the currency; and considering that some
degree of feverishness prevailed upon the subject, it
might produce an inconvenient effect upon the circula,
tion if such an amount of the unfunded debt was to be,
withdrawn. Nothing had fallen from his Right Hon.
Friend to indicate that, at present, he preferred a re-
duction of the unfunded debt. It had been observed
that annuities were.the most desirable way in which the
Sinking Fund could be applied. This, however, could
not be dope wi'heut a greater charge on the public
for the present, and some Sinking Fund would still
be necessary. The Finance Committee certainly re-
commended that when it could be done upon advan-
tageous terms, the Sinking Fund should, in part, be thus
,applied ; but he doubted much whether it could be doHe
with advantage. The experiment had been tried in many
linstances by the Governments of Europe, but it gene.
rally failed. It might answer in some cases, where the
thing could be done by voluntary contract. The Lie
Annuities were considered, and•were,•in fact; a part of
the Sinking Fund. The 3,800,0001. of this year included
the 1,700,000/. for Lite Annuities. This was the mode
of statement hitbert ) pursued with respect to the Sink-
ing Fund and the Life Annuities, and it was the best
way to avoid confusion. The Life Annuities were al-
ways considered as forming a part of that fund. He
did not deny that it was possible to introduce a more
convenient method, but this was the one hitherto pur-
sued. Every application of Lie Annuities went to the
extinction of debt, and they constituted, therefore, a
Sinking Fond,
Sir H. PARNELL said, the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was
perfectly correct and clear. The Right Hon. Gentleman
who :poke last -was also correct in reference To what
passed in the Finance Committee. It was however a great
question with the Committee, whether the Sinking Fund
Was to be fried at 3,000,0001. er whether only the real
surplus of income, whatever it might be,•-•weinta be 'op
plied to the redemption of debt, the deficienoy of one
year to be set against the surplus of the next, that there
sbiald be no borrowing. This was the state of the case.
He should now say a few words on the general policy
of a Sinking notch Those even who were oppissed.to
Sinking Fund were always friendly to the redemption
dt debt by a real surplus. .Stich was the case with
Mr. R cardo, and ,it was also lois opinion. His view
theotl subject' was, that to cotitinue taxation to the
In at 0f.3,000,0001. a'Yeer for the purpose of keeping
,up a nominal Sinking ;Fund; did. more injety to' ttid
public than good. To this conclusion he came irom-tie
present state of taxation. There were 6,000,0001. raised.
!now upon raw. materials, the basis of indtotry. It was
4eae that this must increase the price of production. The
direct effect was to take away the power c:f competition,
and throw them out, of the Foreign Mai kets. The
danger was the greater when they saw free dovern•
(vents growing up in other countries.
,There were
also taxes which fell directly on their manufactures,
such as paper and glass. The Processes in' these and
.ocher branches were regulated by Acts of F'.liliament,
and not in the most advantageous way. Then these
were the taxes which gave rise to smuggling, to El:e-
vent which the country was put to the expense of
700,0001..innually. It would be better to reduce these
taxes than keep up t )is miserable Sinking Fund, which.
,was in reality ineffectual. There were other taxes in
the nature of protection, such as that on Canada tim-
ber. Revenue was lost by this duty not less than
million a year. The Revenue would be greater if `the
tin were reduced t i 15s. a ton in place of 2/. What
would be most for the advantage of the country would
* to reduce taxation. If they were to relieve 'the
country from taxes, such was her power of accumulit-
Lion, that they need be under no apprehension. The
Sinking- Fend was said to support public credit ;
but the fact was, that the payment of the dividends
was what really supported public ciedit. If there Were
as veal surplus, he should be favourable' to even a
More extended reduction of debt than one hitherto pro-
posed; He was not therefore to be considered as op-
posed to the redemption •of debt. The great object
should be to avoid getting into debt. The present plan
Pursued with• respect to the Sinking Fund only tended
to the accumulation of debt in .the event cf a war. It'
great loans should be required in future wars,• they
must, upon the present system; eventually approach.to
something like bankruptcy. He wished such a general
view to be taken-of the whole system at might prevent
future inconveniences. With proper management there'
could be no diffieulto in getting• through a war with the
assistance of war legation., Even a wee as expensive as
the last might be met by prop"erimanogement now, and
by-husbanding resources. The great error in the last
war saes, not to have commenced' earlier with a war
taxation in place of borrowing. He hoped•the present
would oonstitutein new era in their finances; and he
doubted not, that from the great attention drawn to the
subject, they (would not hereafter be exposed to the in
conveniences. which they now found it so difficult to
remedy. When the Finance Committee met next year,
be hoped their attention would be directed more caul-
Wady so the future stste•of their finances, and that a
full revision of the taxation of the country wi.uld take
place. . .1. •• • • • • • ,
Mr. P. THOMSON begged thaßight Hoc. Gentle.
man to answer,kint threelrestions,.for On the reply to
them depended muds of *abut he intended M address to
the House.. Ha Wished, in the first place, to know
whether it was the intention of Government to apply
the excess of revenue over the expenditure only to the
purposes of a Sinking Fund? His next question was,
whether that Sinking Fund was to be so applied this
year? And next, supposing there was more than he
required tit% year, in what way was the surplus to be
expended? : •' ••
,That 1T grI.LQRoftheEXCHEQOERthought
that probably the best- way of answering the Mop.
Mdmher liotdd ibeobtostadioire pump of the Report
of the Committee; bat as that might-occupy too much

time, he would endeavour to state its substance. In
the first place, the present Sinking Fund was intended
tor the present as well as for fu ore years; but at the
same time it would be the duty of those' who had
the financial affairs of the country uoder their
care to keep that Sinking Fund up to the full amount
of three millions. To the second question he had to
answer, that it was their intention to apply that Sink-
ing Fund in the present year. From the moment the
Committee came to a decision with respect to a Sinking
Fund of three millions, the Government detern:ined to
carry their intention into execution ; and th Bill to
be iirroduced that evening was for the purpose of limit-
ing the appropriation of one half of these three millions
for the first half year. To the third que-ti -in he had
to say, that Government would be guided by the nature
of the circumstances of the case; but he begged at the
same time to observe, that he coincided most fully in
all the opinions, with respect to the Funded and Un-
funded Debt, uttered by his Right Honourable Friend
beside him (Mr. 'ferries).
Mr. P. THOMSON regretted that fie was left 'in
some difficulty by the Right Hon. Gentiemin's answer
to his second question. The Right Hon. Gentleman said •
that he meant to apply only the surplus t:t re.;enuettiis
year to the extinction of debt. Now, if 1,5 0,0001.
could not be shown to be the existing surplus, as of 'the
first half of the present year,. did the Right Huh. Gen-
tleman conform, as he professed to do, to the rechm•
Mendation of the Finance Committee? The Right Hon.
Gentleman estimated the whose surplus of the year•it
three millions; but, by his Own st,tement;that amount
did not include the Annuities, and therefore this total .
was reduced to 2,400,000/. This wag what appeared
to the creditor side of tie account, and is the total
of what the Right HAI. Gentleman could invest in the
course of the Whole year. But what had ;been the
operatiou in the first part of the year, the whole surplus •
being calculated to 2,400.0001. Why, he stated that he
had invested already 2,500,000/. so that instead el there
remaining 1,500,0001. to be invested for the remaining
half year, as a moiety of the surplus of the o hole year,
the Right Hon. Gentleman's investment had already
exceeded the whole year's surplus, by 100.0001. He
said, therefore, that in answer to his second question, the
Char.cellor of the Exchequer had stated two points at
variance one with . another. He cot tended theie was
4n absurdity in thinking of estinguiatiing the debt by
borrowing, and•if he found that the Chancrllbr of the
Exchequer's Bill bare oh the 'face of it a contradiction
to the recommendation of the Finance Committee, be
would feel it • his duty to offer it all the opposition in
his power. It was useless now, he thought;.tAlrgue
respecting a surplus revenue, for their was in 'feet no
such thing ; but as the' Right' Hon. Master of the Mint
had expiessed a strong opinion upon the subject, he
would say that he differed altogerner with that Right
Hon. Gentleman, and thought the present was the most
convenient time at which Government could pay off Its
account td the Bank of England--a dabs which was ai-
koo‘vledged by onto be dangerous'atid inconvenient. It
was now owned that it Wat racqnverfient that the Babk
s/youla hold sd large on amount of Government steal:
aledothich it was Proved by the panic in.l92sentilitliottia
dirtied into 'available property. The quCstion V-4101bil
theitould best diminish loss anctinclivehienc*? and
WaaecideJly persuaded that could *lest &fie 61'0,1'
'ibg off the debt at once: He acknowledged that nadir •
Ordinary circumstances, if 1.500,0001: we're paid
there would be a ditninution'olso Mali in the CATO

don, but at present the snider vies dsidely different. The
Bank advanced 1,000,000t0n thedesd Wriglit, and tI4
circulation was, no doubt, increased by the :pay inent iif
that million on account of the dead weight. Biit if'
tinder existing circumstances a million were paid tcl
.the-Bank, it would be in lista arty—..•book transfer-Li. •
And•ifse public mid the 'circulavon wonld he its. the:
%erne situation; One million.,was thus disposed ot; end '.
ireiren, according to the statement of theChanetifor 4lf
therExelseqver, there was then six ty.or sixty-five milinfili
iitcircu.lation, the withdrawal of 500 0001. could qirely
'he attended with no bad effect. Besides, he contended
this 500,0001. would be withdrawn only Iron) the Lon:.
don circulation. It appeared from' the last accounts
'that there were sit Millions of ,deposits from companies
of individuals in the Bank of England i allowinilta of
:this to companies; there was another half` which •worolit
be at ouce brought into the market the moment,thero
'was a prospect:obits, being advantageously eMployed;
so that the deficiency cretted. ipontthet.iiiviiiieidef
t e withdrawal of the 500;0001, would be ferikOls' .
f ld. The debt Irom the Gnvernment to Bank 'or
ngland then amounted to between twenty•eight and
!twenty-ninemillione.
11
. ,

Dead Weight
Exchequer Mils issued ...
Exchequer Bills purchased
Lehcient Bills

,C 11.000,000
3;323,000
... 6,150,030
. 8,543,000

Total 5e28,891.000 •
The Hon. Gentleman argued that this amount Of debt was moat
iticonvenieot to the Government. He did not believe
,in.,tbk.
existence of a surplus revenue ; and wished that instead of going lib
expense in creating a nominal Sinking Fund, they would leave or
money to fructify in the pockets of the people. He argued-, that
we had to compete with new States never oppressed, by .
we ought to make all practicable reductions in our taxation and' to
enable us to have a priority in the foreign market, which viis;kno4h*
to be of paramont importance. He concluded with complimenting'
the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the manner in which he had
made his statement.

MABERLY Aid Mr. HiR&M explained.
After a few words fro* Mr. Hums, the Resolution was agreed to.
The following grants were then voted—
£6,l9o,ooo out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain.
£16,046,800 to be raised by Exchequer Bill for the service of the
.ar 1828.

.:..:

The Houte then reseined, the Chairman reported progress, and
obtained leave to sit again on Monday.—Report ordered to be re.
ceived tomorrow.
The House resolved ‘itself into Committee on the N►tional
Debt Act.

The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER
posed, that the resolutions be had to submit, in conformance with
the recommendation of the Finance Committee, should be
to pass without discussion in the present stage. As they had already
bad a discussion on the gerrrral question, in which this particular
proposition was included, be thought the noose might accede to
his proposal. The Right lion. Gentleman then proposed the fol.
lowing resolution— •

" It is the opinion of this committee, that in lieu of the sppv
now directed to be paid by the 4th of his present Majesty, •
the Consolidated Fund, to the Commissioners for the Reductioa of
the National Debt, there shall be issued out of the Consolidates
Fund, at the receipt of the Exchequer' such an annual sum, is; •
taken together with the interest of all Capital Stock standing on
the Sib of July, 1828, in the names of the Commissioners, shall
amount to the sum of three millions."
Hr. HUM E proposed the addition of these words—" Provided
there is a clear surplus Revenue to that amount." He moved ail)
with reference to his own consistency, and in conformance with.
the recommendations of the Finance Committee.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the amend,.
ment of the Honourable Gentleman was directly at variance with
the Finance lteport.—.The amendment was then put, and nega7
owed without a division, and the original resolution affirmed.
The second resolution was,' That it Is the opinion of' this Cons._
miner, that the Commissioners may, if they think fit, lay out the.
money in the purchase of Exchequer Bills, and teat such bills be
cancelled."—lbe Hoooe;Xesumed, and the Report was ordered Ps
be received to-morrow.
On the motion of Mr. N. CALVeaT, the Report on the rid
Refold Disfranchisement. Bill was ordered to be brought tip' on.
Tuesday 'en:light. ^
Tbejlast Belford Vitiesnana 'l.l44tehs t4' a second titnet Old
the Committee ordered-lbr that diy Wive mss
The Bowes on the motion of the CSAIWILLOJe of else' gaetiok.3
• .
• •